an employee showed up for a video training while lounging in bed and smoking

by Alison Green on April 22, 2024

A reader writes:

I work in a low-level supervisory role for a social service agency. Most of our employees work remotely and are issued desktop computers with a monitor and camera. The majority of these remote employees do not need to be on camera to complete daily tasks; however, when meetings or training sessions occur, “cameras on” is expected.

Recently, I set up a Teams meeting with an employee of seven months’ tenure (“Wynn”) to train them one-on-one for an additional task. As background, Wynn has exhibited some lack of conformity with business norms, including timeliness of response, reliability, and accepting feedback without excuses. This is not a first job for Wynn. I do not have authority to decide what responsibilities Wynn is given or if they require a performance improvement plan. None of their issues has reached “fireable offense” level yet, but they are a long way from being a model employee.

Wynn had some technical issues with connectivity at the beginning of the meeting. Due to that, I said we could continue with our training without requiring them to use their camera. However, Wynn was eventually able to connect their camera.

Once the camera came on, I could see that Wynn was in bed, not propped up on pillows but lying on their belly looking up at the camera. The top of the bed was fully visible and they did not use the blur feature. Throughout the call, Wynn fidgeted and moved all over the bed; sometimes on their belly, laying their side, sitting up, sitting slightly off camera, playing with their hair, face, and clothing, smoking, etc. While I understand everyone has a different tolerance for staying still, it was constant motion. I was also surprised to see Wynn smoking in a training meeting with a supervisor. They did not take notes and the meeting was not recorded.

I conducted the meeting, saying nothing about Wynn’s movements; however, when they moved off of screen I did ask if everything was okay. The level of visual distraction was high and I felt somewhat like I was intruding on their privacy as they were in bed. I would have no objection to seeing a bed in the background, or even part of a headboard or pillow to support the back, but their sprawl on the bed seemed like too much informality or familiarity for a meeting held with a supervisor. To be fair to Wynn, they seemed engaged in the training, answering and asking questions appropriately.

If this meeting included others, should I have handled things differently? What if an external stakeholder or upper management was on the call too? I am struggling with whether or not to handle this as a coaching on professional norms opportunity, but have not been told if this individual might have a medical accommodation allowing them to recline in bed while they work. Am I allowed to ask my manager that question? Also, one would not smoke in a meeting on-site, and it strikes me as somewhat casual to do when you are being trained, even if one is at home.

Was ignoring Wynn’s movements the best option? I admit to a bias in that I find it unprofessional to show so much of one’s bed and smoke when you are working but do not know if they have always done this in meetings with others in supervisory roles and it’s not been raised as an issue.

Yeah, you don’t take work calls lying on your stomach in bed unless there’s something medical going on and you have some kind of accommodation (which doesn’t have to be formal; it could just be, “FYI, I’m having a medical thing and this is the only way I can comfortably take the call, hope it’s not too distracting”).

You also don’t turn your camera on for a work call if you’re going to need to be moving around like that! It’s distracting to whoever else is on the call.

The smoking is weird too. If it were just the smoking, I’d let it go — it’s unprofessional, but it doesn’t sound like you’re Wynn’s direct manager so you could just let that go … but combined with everything else, it’s part of an overall impression of Not In Work Mode.

We can debate whether or not that should be the case. If we were creating a brand new work culture from scratch, hell, I might be an avid proponent of all calls being taken from bed and people not caring about things like smoking as long as they don’t have to smell or inhale it. But we have the culture we have, and it has conventions and norms, and the reality is that smoking on a call from bed while you wriggle around and slouch off camera and play with your hair is as out of step with those norms as, say, coming to work shirtless or, I don’t know, working from a blanket fort.

As for what you could have done in the moment … it would have been fine to say, “I’m finding so much movement distracting, can I ask you to not to do that on camera / would you rather reschedule for another time?” or just suggest they turn their camera back off if that would be appropriate for the context.

As for what to do now … especially given the other issues you’ve noticed with Wynn’s professionalism, it would be fine to mention this to their manager and say something like, “If it happens again, my thought is to say something but before I do, I wanted to make sure there’s not an accommodation in play that I should be aware of.”

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{ 258 comments }

{ 258 comments… read them below }

  1. norm Peterson*

    I once got in trouble for moving around too much on camera… the offense was bending over to get a pen out of a backpack. So yeah, I’d say something on that front as it was happening.

    1. daffodil*

      by “got in trouble” do you mean called out and asked not to do that, or some kind of consequence? That seems… excessive.

  2. ChurchOfDietCoke*

    Hmm. I’d find this infuriating – it’s as though Wynn was so disengaged in what I was saying that they couldn’t even be bothered to get up! And frankly ‘wriggling about on the bed’ could feel deeply uncomfortable and inappropriate to some people – if there’s even a suggestion of sexual power play here, switch off the call immediately.

    (And smoking is bad enough but in bed? Yikes!)

    1. anonymous 5*

      I mean…the first thing that came to mind when I saw the phrase “smoking in bed” was that Wynn was trying to replicate the old-trope image of post-coital bliss, so I would DEFINITELY want that shut down pronto.

      1. ChurchOfDietCoke*

        I was just thinking about the fire risk. My grandparents both smoked heavily, but would NEVER EVER smoke in bed because my grandmother heard a story once about someone who fell asleep with a ciggy in their hand and set fire to the bedclothes…

        1. Not-So-New Mom (of 1 8/9)*

          It might have been my great-grandmother, who died from smoking in bed and causing a fire! (Before I was born, I never knew her.)

        2. OnlyYouCanPreventMattressFires*

          That was the first thing I thought of, not exactly relevant in this context, but seriously, never ever smoke in bed. I don’t even like to smoke next to a bed. Even if you don’t fall asleep, you are surrounded by flammable material.

        3. ferrina*

          Can confirm that this is a thing that happens. When I was a kid one of my neighbor’s houses burned down because of this (everyone got out safely).

        4. Dust Bunny*

          I feel like I’ve heard a lot of stories about this so I assume it wasn’t that uncommon. Or falling asleep on the couch while smoking–some of the rubber foams they use/used to use in stuffed furniture are amazingly flammable.

          1. Kivrin*

            My uncle died from falling asleep in a chair while smoking, and burning down my grandparents’ house. It’s a terrible, terrible idea.

        5. Cookie monster*

          Oh this is very much a thing. My sister lived in an apartment 25+ years ago and a guy fell asleep with a cigarette and nearly burned the whole place down.

        6. Christine*

          Two people have died (and destroyed their homes) in my neighborhood due to cigarettes setting furniture on fire.

        7. JSPA*

          I remember entire public service ad campaigns about not smoking in bed. It remains the leading cause of fatal house fires.

        8. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

          it’s really dangerous to smoke while lying down, in bed or elsewhere.

          I don’t know how many people remember the actor Jack Cassidy (father of David Cassidy with his first wife and Shaun Cassidy and 2 other sons with Shirley Jones), but he died due to lighting a cigarette and falling asleep on the couch.

          It was bad. His remains had to be identified by dental records.

          1. Princess Sparklepony*

            Being very drunk at the time was also a factor. He had a big problem with alcohol most of his life. Sad story, only 49 when he died. And even with the alcohol problem was a steady guest star on many popular shows.

    2. Msd*

      Except the LW said he was engaged….asking questions, etc. I think that piece got lost in the rest of the description.

      1. wiggly cat*

        This … caught me off guard and also didn’t. I’m the kind of neurodivergent weirdo who pays attention better when my hands are busy, and who gets really self-conscious sitting up straight and proper and nicey nice.

        If bed and smoking are distracting to other participants Wynn needs to find some other kind of zoom meeting sitting position, but “pretending I’m at the office” doesn’t facilitate learning for a lot of people.

        1. Yours sincerely, Raymond Holt*

          There are plenty of things you can do with your hands that aren’t smoking.

    3. allathian*

      Smoking in bed is the *leading cause* of fire deaths in the US even today. This in spite of the fact that smoking is much less common now than even 20 years ago.

      But yeah, even if Wynn was am engaged participant in the training, this behavior was unprofessional.

    4. Annie*

      Yeah, this whole thing screams unprofessional to me. And I disagree with Alison that if we could start over we should make that allowable. There are certain things you do and don’t do when you are in a business setting, and laying on your bed while on a conference call certainly isn’t one of them.
      It’s nice that they were engaged, but yet they couldn’t sit still and were off-camera, and moving around that would make most anyone on the video call uncomfortable.
      The smoking is bad enough, again, you don’t do that during work (they have smoke breaks for that, and certainly WFH they don’t need to be smoking while on the call).
      I’d definitely discuss it with their manager.

  4. LokiLaufeysanon*

    I can’t help but wonder if Wynn was behaving that way in some weird, passive effort to get OP to tell them to turn the camera back off. Or they’re just an unprofessional weirdo (probably what it actually is).

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I don’t want to be on camera. It’s weird and awkward. When I am in a meeting, I’ve found this amazing trick. Maybe Wynn can use it.
        I say, “hey, can I be off camera for the meeting? Thanks,” I find waiting for people to read my mind is far less effective.

        so is Wynn being passive aggressive or is Wynn just an odd duck? Wynn can be both. Ultimately, Wynn either doesn’t get norms or mocks them. But in either case, needs extra managing and guidance. And should get one shot.
        “Smoking on camera isn’t done here. Any you need to sit up when you are on camera.”
        Why? I think it’s fine.
        “Yes, it’s fine. Just not on camera. It is distracting. Same with eating. You can opt out of camera, though.”
        And then, if Wynn is back on the bed, smoking, deal with that.

    3. one mississippi*

      OP shouldn’t be on camera in her bed.

      But this whole escapade raises the question of why it’s so important to this company that cameras be turned in. All it does is encourage the “Lance Ito effect” — preeening for the camera at the expense of accomplishing what the call is supposed to accomplish.

      If it’s that important to see the other person (eg because it’s a negotiation and you want to see body language), hold the meeting in person.

      1. Yay! I’m a llama again!*

        I do training, mostly via zoom. Cameras on is expected, if you contact me in advance to let me know about an issue, I’ll be flexible. But we train confidential, regulated material – I have to know you aren’t taking ‘training’ whilst in the middle of a coffee shop/doing your shopping/driving your car etc. We will either remove people from the training or stop the session.

        It’s not like being in a meeting where you just listen, we are training you how to do your regulated job and it’s an expectation set when you get the role so it isn’t a surprise.

        And it’s not necessarily a case of ‘be in person instead’. Our people work all over the country, so the logistics of getting everyone to one place now (less spaces to use for training since 2020), but also we try to be adaptable to flexible working and appreciate people may be doing the school run, so video is generally easier.

        I wouldn’t put up with the wiggling around on a bed. The smoking I hate, I think it’s unprofessional, I’d probably ask you to wait until we went for a break.

      2. Uranus Wars*

        Eh for trainings I get cameras on. To make sure the person is there, engaged and not clearly doing something else, hasn’t walked away for 10 minutes to do laundry while people are conducting a important piece of the training. Not that all people do that, but some do. And depending on the training they just need to make sure it’s the right person online.

        1. Kit Kendrick*

          I hate being on camera. This is aggravated at work because I use my laptop as an extra monitor at my office workstation — the view is primarily of my right ear. (For my home workstation I have a proper webcam in a professional orientation.) I hate being on camera in any case so I tend to split the difference when I do training. I have cameras on during the pre-meeting chit-chat, orientation, and so forth (and sit sideways for that portion in the office) until it’s time to go into sharing a full screen/presentation, at which point I will excuse myself and turn off the camera and allow attendees to make their own choices.

      3. TechWorker*

        I’m sorry but there’s more than one situation where body language is important.. and ‘just do it in person’ is clearly not reasonable when teams are distributed over geographies. Maybe your company has infinite travel budget, mine definitely doesn’t :)

      4. Allonge*

        I don’t know if you tried to teach people anything online, cameras off, before – it’s fairly hellish.

        1. UKDancer*

          This so much. I used to have to deliver training during Covid and I’d sometimes be the only person with the camera on and it’s awful. It’s so hard to teach when you can’t see if your message is landing, establish any rapport and see if the audience understands.

          It’s so much better teaching or training when you can see the audience.

          1. allathian*

            Depending on the system. Requiring the audience to keep their cameras on is less than useful if the presenter can’t see anything except their presentation, which happens frequently on Teams when the person who’s sharing their screen can’t see anything other than their own presentation on some setups.

        2. Butterfly Counter*

          Ah, yes. Teaching on Zoom to a black screen full of names. And then I finish my lecture and 4 or 5 students are still logged on far, far after I dismiss everyone. If I had to do than another semester, I’d have quit instead.

        3. Perihelion*

          Agreed—I didn’t know how much I absolutely rely on visual feedback until I didn’t have it from most of my students. Even aside from how useful it is, it’s really not that weird to want to see the person you’re talking to.

        4. Dahlia*

          I take classes online and it is fairly obvious that some people who don’t have their cameras on just open the zoom link and leave, because a certain amount of attendance is mandatory, but they’re working or something.

          It’s honestly kinda disrespectful.

        5. DogGone*

          It is fairly hellish, but having taught online right after Covid for 1.5 years on Zoom, I also learned really quickly a lot of students don’t have a good space to take classes in if at home. I taught speech and I saw students standing outside their apartment door, recording their speeches, with sirens, kids, and noise.

          Did some students have fantastic areas? Yes. They were typically from families with more money. But some students reported they went home to share a room with 1-3 siblings. Or were sleeping on the couch. I decided I’m not going to embarrass any of my students who don’t have control over their living environments.

          I can deal with a little drudgery if it means a student doesn’t get picked on or outed for being poor. And I don’t care if they start the class and leave. If my class isn’t designed so that they need to come to pass, why was I holding class? And if it is, and a student can pass fine because they are highly intelligent and know the content, isn’t that the point?

          Employees who are remote, however, should have an expectation they have a space to take calls from and be paid accordingly to maintain that space.

  5. Janet*

    This is a tangent but you say remote employees are issued desktops and reading the post my mental image was Wynn using a laptop *in* the bed. But they are actually looking up at a desktop on a table by the bed? Not using the bed as a chair but as a divan.. This doesn’t add anything to the advice, I am just confused Wynn finds this comfortable. But obviously they must have been because they were an active participant.

    1. Tio*

      I read it as like Wynn was fully flat on their stomach and probably had the laptop on the edge of the bed or so

      Which I have done for off-camera training sessions, but never when I needed to have a camera on!

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I assumed he had the laptop on the bed and was looking at it like a kid lying on their belly reading a comic or something.

    2. FlyingAce*

      Perhaps they joined the meeting from a cellphone? That’s the only reasonable explanation I can think of; otherwise… I have no words.

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      letter writer said below that it seemed like they were using a desktop across from the bed, despite also having been issued a laptop. User name is “OP*” .

  6. Glazed Donut*

    The phrase “lack of conformity with business norms” to describe what others would call unprofessionalism or immaturity is very kind, LW.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t think it’s kind so much as just factually neutral. “Unprofessional” and “immature” can be incredibly subjective (perhaps less so in this example!) and so many of our business norms can insist on things that are actively sexist/racist/whatever, so calling it a business norm suggests that independent of whether or not the norm is good, the norm is what it is. A good example in this post is the hair colour letter, where it’s not inherently unprofessional or immature to have bright blue hair, but it might violate a business norm in some sectors or at some companies.

      2. EA*

        OP – you are not biased. It is rude to be rolling around in bed and smoking while someone is taking the time to train you. This is where I feel like work from home culture is going too far. There are minimum standards to be followed that are similar to in person expectations – wearing appropriate clean clothes, showing up on time, having a business-appropriate background (blur/virtual background counts), and sitting up and paying attention to the person training you is NOT too much to ask.

        1. Cookie monster*

          This, so much. Some of y’all are pushing it too far and are going to ruin it for everyone else.

        2. Caramel & Cheddar*

          I didn’t say anything to the contrary. I think it’s both a business norm *and* inappropriate for Wynn to be behaving this way, but I also think it’s important not to conflate the business norms and professionalism because that’s not always the case. That’s why the LW’s phrasing isn’t a kindness so much as just an accurate description of what they expect of their employees according to the business norms of their workplace.

        3. allathian*

          Yes, I definitely agree with this, with the only caveat of a medical accommodation of some kind for not sitting upright. No excuse for the smoking, though.

          One of my coworkers has a desk treadmill and she gets her 10k steps during her workday easily. But I still find it distracting and wish she’d keep her camera off. But apparently I’m the only one who’s bothered by that, so…

      3. Smithy*

        Absolutely this….

        I think this can always be made even more specific by saying “a business norm at XYZ employer”. I find this incredibly useful particularly when explaining why certain C-Suite staff members have negative reactions to certain attention aids or practices – such as knitting/crocheting during meetings. It’s a more effective way of explaining what’s expected without debating whether or not someone is paying attention or why more subtle fidget spinners would be viewed differently than knitting.

        Again, while I don’t think anyone is going to go to the mat in defense of being on video for a call in bed while smoking, but to the practices of knitting or blue hair – this phrasing takes away that debate and lets someone pick and choose how they will or won’t be challenging norms.

    3. amoeba*

      tbh, I feel like that behaviour would just be plain rude, even without any business norms. Doing things that are super distracting to the other person on the call isn’t bad because it’s “not confirming to business norms” and thus might be acceptable in a perfect world – it would be bad even in a purely social call! I mean, maybe with my best friend, sure. But with an acquaintance/Tinder date/whatever, I’d *still* be put off by it.

  7. Introvert girl*

    As a remote employee who sometimes works from their bed (when I’m sick but not sick enough to go on sick leave), I wouldn’t tolerate this kind of thing. You shouldn’t be lying on your tummy and moving around and distracting the speaker. As a person with adhd I do fidget a lot, so my camera is usually turned off, but still, this is not correct. Is this perhaps a young person? Or is it someone who doesn’t really care. In any case, next time, just ask to keep it professional and get off the bed.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, I worked on my bed when were were WFH in 2020. My room is one of the only places in the house that is quiet and has ok lighting, but if I had to be on camera I was sitting up, sitting still, and the (tablet, in my case) was held close enough that you couldn’t see that much of me or the bed. (And, for the record, I was always wearing a clean, office-acceptable shirt.)

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      You have to fully commit to the blanket fort. Half a blanket fort looks sloppy; a blanket fort with a veranda and doorbell flips back around to admiring your commitment.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I now want to see a blanket fort with a veranda and doorbell in order to appreciate what it looks like.

    2. Czhorat*

      This feels different; lying prone in bed *feels* inappropriate, private, and vaguely sexual. Turning on the camera to SHOW that you’re lying in bed makes it weirdly exhibitionist.

      If Wynn hadn’t turned the camera on, nobody would know they were lying in bed or smoking; I have a green screen behind my home desk to hide the messy basement, but even so I’ll turn the camera off if I’m having a snack during a meeting. Keeping it on was a choice, and not a good one.

        2. Czhorat*

          Sorry – it’s SO easy to missread tone here.

          I could see someone thinking that this was out of sync with the response to the blanket fort letter. That said, I always love a callback to an AAM classic!

        3. Ready...set...go.*

          Noooo you don’t hate to be the one, you enjoy being able to call someone out on here. Even though, I’m not sure what you’re even calling them out on as they didn’t even reference the blanket fort.

  9. Pierrot*

    Yeah, this is next level bad. I get not saying anything directly since you aren’t her boss and maybe don’t know her that well…but I would have been tempted to say something to the effect of “Hey, just some friendly advice- the expectation is that during video meetings, you’re sitting up at a desk or table and refrain from smoking. It’s really distracting and might lead people to question your professionalism.”
    And maybe even add “I don’t mean to be harsh, I just want to let you know so that you don’t do this in front of the wrong person.”
    I wouldn’t focus as much on the fidgeting, mostly because the other behaviors are far more egregious and noticeable. If she was sitting at a desk and not smoking, the fidgeting would probably be less distracting.

    That said, I completely cosign telling her supervisor in this case so that she can have this conversation with her.

      2. And thanks for the coffee*

        This comment seems unnecessary and unkind.

        When commenting we don’t always get details right.
        Commenting Rules:
        Give people the benefit of the doubt.
        Don’t nitpick.

  10. mango chiffon*

    I was in a training the other day and everyone (including the trainer) was off camera except one person who had their camera on and was moving around a lot, probably not paying a ton of attention, and was fiddling with their phone. I could hardly focus on the training because this person’s movement was so distracting.

    1. Miette*

      Yeah, it reminds me when I was in grad school, early lockdown days, and this one woman left her camera on while she went about her evening activities: cooking dinner, cleaning her kitchen. So many side conversations among the rest of us, let me tell you. Professor never addressed it as far as I can tell because she’d do this every damn week.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        So many non-work Zoom presentations I’ve attended have this one participant. And on more than one occasion the person also forgot to mute themselves so we could hear them cooking and washing dishes. This was in the early days of Zoom when most hosts hadn’t parsed out that they could mute participants themselves. But ADHD me found it incredibly distracting.

        1. Check cash*

          My friend who is a therapist was trying to do an intake evaluation with someone who was clearly driving, not just riding in a car, but the one driving.

      2. KateM*

        I remember someone who clearly talked to someone else on another computer. And kept on her camera (so she was in profile and chatting away). Such a weird choice.

    2. New Jack Karyn*

      Back in the days of Zoom department meetings, one coworker joined while on a phone, taking a walk in her neighborhood. Fine–most of us don’t actively participate in those. But she didn’t mute, and we got all the wind sounds wooshing the whole time. The leader didn’t mute her from their end, either.

  11. As You Wish*

    The answer here was framed as being an issue of work norms and culture but to me it feels like respect for a colleague is the issue. LW is taking the time and effort to share knowledge. In return, regardless of the remote work context, they are owed all the body language possible to convey attention and engagement.

    1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      I think rolling around in bed and smoking is obviously too much but “all the body language possible to convey attention and engagement” means “all the neurotypical body language possible to convey attention and engagement.” Forcing people to have the camera on so that they can force the person to perform 100% NT attention is not ND-friendly.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Not true. I know enough not to do this as autistic, and if they did this in front of a client who needed to trust them, no amount of ‘but I’m autistic’ would help.

        It’s also fairly infantilising to treat neurodivergent people in the workplace as if we can’t or shouldn’t be expected to behave according to norms. There have been times when I’ve received devastating news and someone in that kind of state would be disrespectful to me, neurodivergent or otherwise.

        Please stop infantilising people — we’re not any less capable of adhering to behaviours that focus on conveying a message to an audience in an appropriate manner. This kind of allyship feels good to some people but it actively hampers us being empowered and being taken seriously if we do, like most adult people, work hard to integrate ourselves into society. It’s actually rather ableist to assume neurodivergent people can’t do this kind of thing — the slogan is something like ‘Assume I can until I can’t’ — that is, treat me like I’m just another person with the same expectations as other folks.

        (Likewise it’s no way classist for someone to try to carry themselves with dignity. My dad is old enough to have lived in a home with an outside toilet, and he is proud of getting out of that place by working his way up, getting an education and developing the social skills necessary to hold down a job where he ended up fairly high up. If you said it was classist to aspire to behaviour that shows respect for other people, he’d get very annoyed indeed.)

        4. Festively Dressed Earl*

          +100. Thank you for this. As an ND, needing noise cancelling headphones, having a thought dump notepad all the time, and (yep) occasionally playing with my hair are one thing. Rolling around in bed in front of another person with no explanation? That’s a whole nother level.

          1. Katie A*

            GythaOgden made good points but both their comments and yours seem to be in response to something that wasn’t said. No one said what the person did in this letter was acceptable.

            But what the comment did say was essentially that we should allow for more variation in how people shown they’re paying attention. The accommodations you mentioned here are the exact kind of thing that includes.

            GythaOgden’s comment, given as a response to someone saying “NT and ND people sometimes give different signs they’re paying attention”, would preclude your fidgeting because NT attention norms consider that a sign of not paying attention (or at least they used to, until people pushed back on that and shifted norms somewhat).

            I don’t think they meant to include that, but that’s why it’s a bad response to a pretty mild statement about accepting variation in ways of displaying that one is paying attention.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Autistic here: No. Either this person can hold it together well enough to behave non-distractingly on camera for awhile, or they need to discuss some kind of accommodation. If Wynn is adult and functional enough to be on at least their second job, they can do better than roll around in bed with a cigarette during a training session.

        I don’t know where this idea came from that ND people just can’t learn to approximate workplace behaviors. Also, the constant movement could be extremely distracting to other ND people, so where is the consideration for them?

        1. sparkle emoji*

          Agreed, I’m autistic, and cameras-on zooms still allow me to stim off-camera(under the desk) which I can’t do in person. Wynn had options if they needed fidgets/stim/other movements before they got to “roll around on the bed and smoke” territory. That’s extreme enough that even if it was for ND reasons, it still isn’t ok.

    2. Orv*

      The thing it took me a while to realize about remote meetings is that to look attentive I need to look at the camera, not at the screen where the speaker is. I find it takes a lot of my mental energy to keep staring at the camera so I prefer to have it off if possible.

      1. Dahlia*

        Oh my god, right? In one of my classes we were given a somewhat condescending graphic (it’s an adult learning class and the graphic was clearly for very young children) about how to be a “good listener” and so much of it was focused on eye contact.

        One, if I’m focusing that much on eye contact, I’m probably not actually hearing you LOL. Two, if I’m staring at the camera to LOOK like I’m making eye contact, I’m not actually seeing anything on my screen!

        1. I Have RBF*

          Yeah, if I have to have my camera on for a training, I will not be looking at the camera, I’ll be looking at the material being presented. I have situated my camera directly above my main monitor, so it isn’t noticeable.

          A lot of people arrange their stuff side by side, not stacked vertically. I’ve had several meetings where upper level people are camera on, but looking off to the side, because apparently that’s where their screen is, different from the camera. So “norms” do vary.

      2. Boof*

        This is why I really like to place my camera right over the meeting window and/or the window under the camera for this reason (vs a two monitor setup, for example, if the camera and the main meeting window are on opposite monitors, it looks like i’m looking to the side) – it gives the illusion of just the right amount of eye contact, i think; gaze slightly below eye level- not the super direc tstare

      3. allathian*

        I’m so grateful that while we generally keep cameras on at least at the start of the meeting and most people switch them off while someone is presenting (because on our Teams setup the presenter can’t see the audience anyway), there are no requirements to perform attention. People show they’re paying attention by contributing to the meeting in a constructive fashion after, or sometimes during, the presentation.

  12. Super Duper Anon*

    I experience both sides of this issue. On the one hand, I am fully aware that you shouldn’t fidget or lounge around in bed or smoke in a meeting. On the other hand, I fidget big time in meetings, and also occasionally lounge in bed when working from home and in a meeting. The difference is I have my camera off most of the time. On occasions when I do have to have my camera on, I work really hard to sit still and focus so I am not bothering others.

    I would recommend both asking the manager if accommodations are in play, and also letting Wynn know how unprofessional it looks. Maybe if there are no accommodations set up currently, you could gently suggest to Wynn that they look into getting some. Allowing meetings with camera off for them is such a simple solution.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I deal with this by wearing fidget rings and only working from a chair when I’m on a call – which helps! And Wynn should definitely get some kind of camera off accommodations if those are in play. But on the other hand as someone fidgety and low-attention I can see someone rolling around the whole meeting to be incredibly distracting.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      I got a variety pack on amazon for fidget toys, they actually have some really neat silent ones nowadays. If focusing on not moving around too much is taking a lot of your effort, it might be worth seeing if you can find a subtle fidget toy that works well for you.

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        Oh, man, I buy a big sack of those every couple of years. Hand ’em out to students in class, then try to get them back when the bell rings. They’re super effective! Better than the pencil-tapping, by far.

    3. Festively Dressed Earl*

      When I was still working and remote, I briefly explained to my managers that my version of paying attention looks a bit different than other people and that I’m actually more engaged if it seems like I’m tuned out. They accepted it with no problem, especially once it became evident that me ‘doodling’ was actually me grasping exactly what was going on and herding a mix of insightful or irrelevant questions on paper so they wouldn’t escape and stampede over the meeting.

      1. Teapot Connoisseuse*

        “herding a mix of insightful or irrelevant questions on paper so they wouldn’t escape and stampede over the meeting”

        Love that phrasing!

  13. Leila*

    The neurodivergence in my recognizes the neurodivergence in Wynn.

    That being said, norms and other people’s perceptions and all that. OP and/or the manager giving polite, sensitive actionable feedback would be a kindness and professionally beneficial to Wynn, who probably doesn’t realize the extent of their movement and behavior or how it’s being perceived.

    1. Billy Preston*

      same! I would also find it very distracting if someone in a meeting was doing this where their camera was on. It’s ok for us ND people to modify our behaviors a bit to meet some standards. Like maybe not laying down or smoking(!?!) so you show you’re working and paying attention.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        ND here: We’re not the only ones who modify our behaviors to fit workplace norms, too. Literally everyone does this. Maybe some NTs have to think about it a bit less, sometimes, but neither NTs or NDs are a monolith of behaviors.

    2. GythaOgden*

      Yeah — this is where it’s at. Neurodivergence might be an explanation (or it might not), but the way to handle it is to give them a heads-up that it’s not appropriate and signals a lack of respect for others.

      Anything else touches on infantilisation — the idea that we’re incapable of learning anything or being able to adhere to any standards outside of our personal context, which is pretty disempowering, both in terms of ableism and classism as mentioned upthread. It treats the neurodivergent or poor as the sum total of their brain chemistry or social status rather than as individuals with a choice or desire to build themselves up. It only serves to keep us in pigeonholes of identity rather than improve social mobility to the point where people can overcome those things that hold us back.

      1. AnotherOne*

        yeah, I didn’t read this as necessarily ND but just as likely someone who doesn’t know any better. Specifically because no one has said anything. People don’t magically know office/work norms. You learn them via discussions.

        Yes, zoom norms are more recent (4 years for most offices) but still for people newer to the workplace, they’re going to be entirely new. So they missed the conversations about what is and isn’t appropriate. The learning curve that most of us shared.

        Things like- make sure you don’t walk in front of an office meeting naked or at least the more general make sure there is nothing embarrassing in your zoom background.

    3. chewingle*

      I thought the same thing about potential neurodiversity, which is why I am a little disappointed that Alison’s response glossed over the question of why this company requires employees to be on camera in the first place.

      I’d like to know if it’s actually necessary, why, and then politely suggest that if the employee is otherwise performing well in the role, OP lets it go and thinks of interaction as a side effect of stupid policies.

      (And if I’m wrong here, follow Alison’s advice. Wdik.)

        1. allathian*

          Sure, but if the employee is otherwise engaging in the training and showing that they’re learning, and have a medical accommodation that allows them to switch off the camera, surely that isn’t too much to ask of the trainer? (I’m not saying that applies to Wynn, mind you.) I can see why training people could be demoralizing and demotivating if the trainer always had to do the trainings with cameras off, but sometimes accommodating others means the trainer has to work harder.

          That said, I can certainly imagine situations where being off camera simply wouldn’t work, for example when the training involves confidential data and the trainer has to be sure that the trainee isn’t calling in from a public place like a coffee shop.

          If the training involves a professional certification of some kind, more rigorous measures may be necessary to prevent cheating. But general on the job training doesn’t normally require such drastic measures.

          1. Yours sincerely, Raymond Holt*

            It isn’t unreasonable for the person leading the training to decide that “cameras on” works best and is the model they want to follow. Even if it wouldn’t be impossible to carry out the training with cameras off. If you’re leading a training session, to some extent you do get to determine the terms on which people participate.

      2. I Have RBF*

        I know some folks in the D/deaf community, and if there is no interpreter or subtitles, they need other people’s cameras on to try to lip read and see body language. This then becomes an accommodation conflict.

        That being said, I’m a camera off person myself. If I’m not presenting, I find it less intrusive. That way I can eat, drink and fidget without distracting others.

  14. Irish Teacher.*

    To me, the issue here is the pattern. Any one of the things wouldn’t strike me as a particularly big deal. Yeah, bed isn’t the best place to do work training, but it could be that that is the only place he has WiFi. I know one of my colleagues told us her camera was off because the only place she could get a good signal was her bed, though I’m pretty sure she was sitting on it rather than lying on her belly. I hate smoking, but I guess when working remotely, it’s not like it’s putting anybody else’s health at risk. And moving around a lot…well, the person could have ADHD or autism or a whole range of other things that would make sitting still difficult.

    But all together and combined with a history of being out of sync with work norms? I think there is a pattern here and one that somebody should probably talk to Wynn about.

    There might be a valid reason. Perhaps they do have some form of neurodiversity or medical issue. Perhaps they worked in a really weird environment previously and have absorbed some norms that…aren’t typical. Who knows? But in any of these cases, it would be a kindness for somebody to clue them in to the fact that in your workplace, their behaviour looks pretty out of step with the norms.

    3. Dahlia*

      I know it’s probably petty but people smoking in zoom meetings honestly bothers me so much.

      Though in one of my online classes, it was moderately amusing to watch a girl vape and then pass out because she was high. Watching how long she could blink for was an interesting distraction during a boring lecture.

        1. Dahlia*

          ?? Pot makes people sleepy sometimes. She fell asleep, in her bed, in the evening, after smoking pot, which is known to make you sleepy.

          Why is that worrying?

  15. DisneyChannelThis*

    I feel like there would be some advantage to being direct with the trainee at the top of the call. “Hey Wynn, we treat these trainings just like we would behave in a conference room at work, behavior needs to be the same as it would at work, I don’t want you to run into issues with others.”

    If we assume Wynn isn’t a jerk trying to make the call annoying for the letter writer, there’s a slim chance they might just not know what behaviors are acceptable. It’s a 1:1 meeting, so it’s not like you might embarrass them in front of others. The fact that they were engaged and actively participating makes me think maybe there’s a chance this isn’t them being a jerk but not getting that zoom calls from home are treated differently than face timing with your friends.

    If others were on the call, you could call out the behavior via private message in the chat function, directly message Wynn “Please sit up and blur your background. Stop Smoking”.

    And I would definitely mention it to their manager now, they need to be aware of this behavior and address it. Also there can be some weird dynamics of one person on the video call fidgeting lying down in bed that might need HR looped in.

  16. RIP Pillowfort*

    I get you aren’t their manager but if it was distracting you, then you were well within your rights to tell them to turn off the camera and stop. You showed a lot of understanding in a situation that really was unprofessional. I’d bring it up with their supervisor just because this is something they need coaching on.

    I say that as someone with ADHD and is super fidgety. Even more so when I’m overstimulated and stressed out. But that’s not the problem of the person having a meeting with me. It’s up to me to manage and ensure that I appear professional/responsible to the other parties when I’m on camera.

    1. Nobby Nobbs*

      If I refrained from fidgeting entirely in a meeting my mind would no longer be in the meeting, so never ever daring to subject a coworker to my fidgeting is a no-go. But rolling around on the bed is a whole different level. In fact, it’s a whole skyscraper of whole different levels beyond, say, playing with a pencil or shifting around in your chair every few minutes. If Wynn needs to do this for ADA reasons the best accommodation may be to take meetings with the camera off.

      1. RIP Pillowfort*

        Yeah I don’t roll around either but I’m a hair chewer when I’m completely overstimmed for any reason. I also can’t always keep my legs still. In person meetings are difficult for me as you might imagine. School was too.

        It’s not that I never fidget in front of co-workers. But I have got to channel it into more socially acceptable fidgeting or it will be distracting for them.

        1. Zap R.*

          Yes to the “socially acceptable fidgeting” thing. Some of my ADHD fidgeting gets into skin-picking territory. I didn’t want to gross my coworkers out so I started bringing a fidget toy to meetings and holding it in my lap.

          My coworkers have been remarkably forgiving of the tics and behaviours I can’t control so I do my best to keep the stuff I *can* control as unintrusive as possible. If they’re engaging with me in good faith, I’m not going to take advantage of their compassion by say, smoking in bed during a meeting.

  17. Ann O'Nemity*

    If this was 2020, I’d probably be more forgiving. There was a lot of weird behavior on video as we were trying to figure out the new norms for WFH. But it’s 2024 and a modicum of decorum on video calls is not too much to ask….

  18. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    People moving around while on video calls actually makes me seasick. I have to tell people to not move around.

    Also for some reason when people take calls on their phone, they keep fiddling with the phone, moving it around, etc. Just get it set and stop touching it. It will stay focused on you.

    In short, yes something needs to be said because its unprofessional and also could affect others if they did this on a call with other people.

    1. BellyButton*

      I was facilitating a strategy session with the exec leadership team at a previous company. One of the only women EVPs spent the entire 2 hours on a an exercise ball, bouncing all around her home office. She was far enough back from the desk I could see her from head to toe. Bounce, bounce, lunge, lunge lunge, lift weights, bounce bounce. It was so distracting and felt very unprofessional, especially considering the topic- the companies 2 yr strategy.

      1. Billy Preston*

        aaagh that would drive me mad. I turn off incoming video whenever possible so I don’t have to see people’s faces and moving around. This would be a no-go for me.

      2. JustaTech*

        Oh my goodness. I’ve actually had a lot of Zoom calls where several people were on exercise balls, but they were support meetings for parents of newborns, and when the baby says “bounce” you bounce until your legs come off!

        The best part was when several of us were bouncing we’d all end up in synch with each other, and then the people who weren’t bouncing would start bobbing along!

  19. Bluz*

    Lying on their stomach for a meeting? What the? Why am I getting webcam vibes? Did they want attention? This whole thing is way too unprofessional and needs to be brought up. If I saw that I would think they weren’t taking the training that seriously. Also I’m sure the higher ups wouldn’t be impressed. So weird.

    1. SarahKay*

      I confess, reading the question brought back vivid memories of lying flat on my front, at home, for a call with the European head of Legal.
      However, in my case I was doing that because I had a massive sciatica attack so this was the only position in which I was moderately pain-free while still able to view the data I needed on my laptop and it was back in 2012 so the call was voice-only.

  20. Ghost Dog*

    I had a coworker who, when told he had to turn on the camera for the morning check in (as we had been reminded multiple times before), turned out to be outside…..in the pool…..with no shirt on.
    *Still* not quite sure what he was thinking.

  21. Mia*

    Now all I can think about is working from a blanket fort. I did go back and read that article. I am remote with no meetings today…it may yet happen!

  22. OP*

    OP here. To answer a question below: the employees are given both laptops and desktops with a camera. In my meeting with Wynn, they appeared to be using the desktop since it stayed stationary but they didn’t. Not sure why they didn’t use the laptop and prop themselves up on pillows at the head of the bed if they needed that. It was strange.

  23. Problem!*

    A lot of people in WFH roles have gone feral, but most everyone knows that if you have to be on video you put on a clean shirt and brush your hair and sit at a desk or table for it and pretend that’s how you work all the time. Then when it’s over you can go back to flopping around in bed while you work.

    1. Lana Kane*

      I keep an assortment of “make me presentable” items at my desk, and a denim jacket close by in case I’m wearing one of my assorted Sanrio tshirts from Target.

      1. BellyButton*

        Me too! I also will use the Zoom appearance enhancer if I don’t want to wear makeup- and the blue light blocking glasses for computers help cover up any dark circles I might be rocking that day. I keep a cardigan handy so I also don’t feel like wearing a bra it won’t be noticeable.

      2. Coffee Protein Drink*

        and it’s not like this kind of thing is hard to do. When working from home, I’m in t-shirts. On a day I’m presenting, meeting someone for the first time, or dealing with a vendor, I’m in a new-looking solid t-shirt with either a nice cardigan or a blazer over it for being on camera. The cardigan and blazer live on the back of my desk chair.

      3. Maestra*

        I have so many Sanrio shirts from target. I’m a teacher and initially never wore them to school – but then another teacher asked me why not and I realized why the hell not? I teach small children and I’m already in jeans and on the floor half the day. So now they’re part of my work wardrobe.

        Anyways, just a shout out to the Target Sanrio shirts.

        (Also , sometimes I end up matching some of the fifth and sixth graders and while I think it’s hilarious, they think it’s embarrassing if I point it out in the hallway.)

        1. Former Admin turned Project Manager*

          I went to high school in the late 80s and one day I showed up wearing my stylish (HA!) yellow Shaker knit sweater on a day when my middle-aged Pre-Calculus teacher was also wearing a yellow Shaker knit sweater. And he came over next to me and put his sleeve next to mine to compare how alike they looked. And grinned like a freaking loon. I’m still feeling the mortification.

    2. Michelle Smith*

      I’ve attended trainings from bed because my pain was too intense to sit at my desk (I have some medical issues). The difference is that I knew to turn my camera off and keep it off so that I wasn’t distracting to others. I’d rather the advice to this employee be sensitive to the fact that they *might* not be able to just sit at a desk and pretend – if they have a medical issue, it’s possible that they can’t focus while doing that and that the training wouldn’t have been valuable. That’s why I think it’s especially important for OP to talk to their boss to see if there is an accommodation before talking to the employee. It will be a different conversation if it’s medical vs. just more comfortable but a desk would be fine too.

    3. jane's nemesis*

      I was going to take offense to “feral” but then I looked at the assortment of clothing items I’m wearing and my (lack of) personal hygiene and decided you were correct lol

    4. Happy poet*

      “a clean shirt and brush your hair and sit at a desk or table for it and pretend that’s how you work all the time.”

      I mean, I definitely remember a letter where people were VERY insistent that like, brushing your hair and putting on a shirt for a WFH job was somehow too big an ask

  24. Hello There*

    Are we really not able to tell people “When you’re on camera you need to be sitting upright with a work appropriate background”?

    1. djx*

      Yeah.

      A little different are these two things I’ve seen:

      A speaker in an online event we organized once started smoking the MJ when he wasn’t presenting. It was was a very “woo woo” meeting, so it fit his vibe. Someone on the host team sent him a DM saying we could see it and he DM’d back “It’s a medicinal herb” and kept toking.

      Another time in a Zoom meeting of about 10 participants with some pretty important people one person (a billionaire BTW) was vaping hard. It was a little disconcerting (vaping looks very sad online). His choice I guess. He was not on staff – rather a donor and on an advisory board.

      1. djx*

        I have seen participants in online event (not staff) lying down. Including one who had just gotten out of surgery. She said that’s why when we checked in at the start of the event.

    2. Coffee Protein Drink*

      I think it’s more a question of, “Why should we have to tell people that? Isn’t it obvious?”

      Apparently not for some people.

    3. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I think the problem that OP had was they didn’t know if there was a medical reason and wasn’t sure if they could ask. I think in the future the OP should feel comfortable to ask, “can you sit up instead of laying down, or could you turn the camera off, since its distracting that you are moving around so much.

  25. Beep Me*

    I am saying this with no judgment: it is super normal for people in social services and related fields to not have the skill of naturally picking up on professional norms, and also to have not ever have been corrected on it by employers. I am also not saying this is ok. It’s just a thing.

    1. Guacamole Bob*

      Your point about people not being corrected by employers is kind of what stood out to me, here, too. OP is a supervisor, was in charge of training this employee, but feels so disempowered that she’s writing to an advice column because she doesn’t have comfort and confidence that it’s okay for her to address unprofessional behavior? She isn’t sure whether she can even bring it up to the person who actually does have managerial responsibilities, which indicates she does not have the kind of supportive relationship with that person where she can get good advice on growing as a supervisor.

      I absolutely get being caught off guard in the moment and not being sure how to address something, but if she doesn’t feel like she knows how to handle it after that fact that points to a not terribly functional culture at this organization, since pretty ordinary and straightforward feedback feels fraught.

  26. Salty Caramel*

    I had to laugh at the smoking. I’m old enough to have worked in places that had smoking rooms where, if your job didn’t require a lot of phone work, you could take your work with you.

    1. Lynn*

      I am not quite at that age…but I do remember my mom being thrilled to death when her company quit allowing smoking in the offices and relegated it to a few smoking areas (and later to outside the building altogether). They stated it was due to those newfangled computers not holding up as long if they were in a smoky environment. I think, in her entire life, my mom has not loved computers as much as she did at that point in time. :>

      Back on topic-I would likely be talking to Wynn, if I felt I had the authority to do so, about how unprofessionally this comes across. And if I didn’t have the authority, then I would take it to Wynn’s boss instead.

      One of the unfortunate jobs that comes with being in charge, to whatever degree, is having conversations and explaining things that one would think could go without saying.

      1. Salty Caramel*

        One of the unfortunate jobs that comes with being in charge, to whatever degree, is having conversations and explaining things that one would think could go without saying.

        Right? Expectations should be set early, and it’s Wynn’s manager’s job to do this. I have to wonder if Wynn has ever done this with their manager on the call.

    3. Fives*

      When I first started working full-time a little over 20 years ago, we didn’t have smoking rooms, but smoking was allowed everywhere but in the labs. I hated it.

    4. Aspirational Yogurt*

      This kind of jumped out at me in the letter. 50 years ago, people smoked in the office while working and no one thought anything of it. When I first started working in the late 90s, one of my colleagues would fondly reminisce about smoking in the office and how nice it was (I think she had since quit the habit).

      As offices banned smoking, it became a “break” activity, since you had to go outside. So now it has the appearance of being casual and something you don’t do while working. But with the rise in remote work, there’s no real business reason people can’t smoke while they work if they are at home — health reasons are another story but not really relevant. Except it now appears unprofessional because of how workplace norms have changed.

      1. JustaTech*

        And social norms in general – in a lot of the US smoking is an outdoor or at-home activity, and therefore considered separate from work.

        I’ve never worked anywhere where smoking indoors was allowed. Back in the mid 90’s my parents work at a consulting firm where the senior engineers had some kind of magic anti-smoke machine that let them smoke the very occasional celebratory cigar, but since it was only in one office and only half of them still smoked it fell out of favor.

      2. Uranus Wars*

        I also think I wouldn’t think *that much* if someone was at their desk and just reached over to take a hit and the replaced it. It my mind it was the whole laid out on the bed with a cigarette resting on their hip or across their opposite arm when on their stomach. I don’t smoke but that was the worst part of this whole letter for me.

      3. lime*

        Eh, I think one reason not to smoke on Zoom, besides the issue of professionalism, is that you never know who is an ex-smoker and it seems like an easy enough courtesy not to engage in a triggering behavior in front of them. I used to smoke and I would be *very* triggered by Wynn’s behavior. But of course, I also don’t have any qualms asking people not to smoke so I would have asked them to stop.

        1. Yours sincerely, Raymond Holt*

          I don’t think that’s really the responsibility of colleagues. You’d drink alcohol at work drinks, you never know who’s a recovering alcoholic, but you don’t need to manage that. People can manage their own additions and recovery choices. The issue with smoking on a call is that it reads unprofessional and as if you’re not in work mode, but triggering ex smokers isn’t really something employees should have to pre-emptively worry about..

      4. Catfish Mke*

        I also remember ashtrays in conference rooms. It’s kind of startling to me how many people are reacting to simply witnessing a person smoke in another building

  27. Zap R.*

    A coworker once attended a Zoom meeting while lying on the floor but that was because she was 8 months pregnant with a gigantic baby who liked to kick her in the ribcage.

    Does Wynn have a gigantic baby kicking them in the ribcage? If not, they can at the very least sit propped up against the headboard and pretend to look engaged.

      1. Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate*

        I have a 3” memory foam mattress topper so I can still do that right up to 40 weeks! Highly recommend.

  28. HonorBox*

    I find myself having to move around a bit while I’m on video meetings, shifting positions from time to time. But not to the level that Wynn apparently did. As I’m shifting, I’m also still sitting in my chair. If Wynn needed to be in a prone position, they should have highlighted it and provided a bit of explanation.

    The smoking thing is a tough one. While on the one hand, someone smoking does not directly impact anyone else on a video meeting. But on the other, I think it is probably best and most respectful to treat virtual meetings the same as we do with in-person meetings. Would Wynn have fired up a cigarette in someone’s office or in a meeting room? Probably not. Similarly, I think it is usually best not to be eating a meal while you’re in a meeting like this. Not that it is an outrage, but doesn’t necessarily show proper attention. And you probably wouldn’t show up for a training meeting with a Hungry Man fresh from the microwave.

  29. BellyButton*

    Did they know their camera started working? That is all I can think about- like they were playing around with the settings and suddenly it started working and they didn’t realize it. I can’t imagine an adult not knowing laying in bed on your stomach isn’t ok.

    ALSO- everyone— please blur your backgrounds or use a virtual one! It saves so many embarrassing and unprofessional moments. I am always remote and my background is always blurred. Sometimes when the cat walks across the back of the chair, someone will ask me to change it so they can see the cat, but that is it.

    1. Lana Kane*

      I spent a probably-excessive amount of time picking a background image. Now I’m just annoyed at the halo that forms around me and especially my headset. The room I’m in has red walls and they really like to make an appearance.

      2. Michelle Smith*

        A relatively cheap green screen would fix that. They even have some that strap to the back of your chair and fold up nicely for storage post-call.

    2. lilsheba*

      Ummm no I am never blurring my background. You see a tapestry and my Frida Kahlo calendar. People just have to deal with that!

    3. Blue wall*

      I have a colleague who gets sick from seeing other people’s virtual backgrounds. Blue feature is really annoying to watch people and features fade in and out. These aren’t always great options. Let’s not make something an all-or-nothing.

  30. Immaterial*

    I think OP had standing to adress it in the moment as it was distracting and unusual for their workplace. If I was training someone and saw them lying in bed and moving around, I would probably assume they had injured themselves in some way that meant it was uncofortable to sit and might ask if they were ok or needed to reschedule. It sounds like that was not what was happening here, but I still think it wouldn’t be put of line to bring it up on the call especially if framed initially as an inquiry rather than rebuke.

  31. learnedthehardway*

    I would bring this up as a professionalism issue. Maybe talk to HR first to get their take on it (and also to be able to say to Wynn that “I wanted to consult with HR before mentioning this issue” as a way to explain why you didn’t bring something this obviously out of alignment with professional norms as an issue in the meeting.

    I was horrified when my teen started doing online high school classes in bed during COVID. He pointed out that at least he was on time and participating, and that his camera was off. His teacher was just glad that kids were showing up, so I didn’t make an issue of it. Still, I thought it was a bit much.

    1. daffodil*

      I’d encourage students to avoid this (and wfh friends too depending on the situation) not for professionalism reasons but for boundaries reasons. If your bed becomes work space it’s harder to keep it as a relax and sleep space.

      1. JustaTech*

        Years and years ago (back when most people didn’t have computers in their rooms) I had a study skills teacher who was very firm that we should not study on our beds because we would not remember what we learned on our beds.

        Even though I have no problem remembering alllllll the books I’ve read in bed that really stuck with me and even in college I would use my chaotic desk or the floor rather than my bed.

      2. allathian*

        I don’t want any electronics in my bedroom, definitely not even my cellphone.

        When I was in college and lived in a studio apartment, it was the only time I’ve had a TV and a computer in the room I slept in.

  32. KaciHall*

    I have spent entire workdays laying down kind of on my side when I was dealing with horrible kidney stones last summer. It was the only position I was comfortable in. I joked that I felt like a Roman emperor and just needed someone feeding me grapes. But for meetings I either had my camera off or managed to sit up for twenty minutes.

  33. kanada*

    OP, why do you care? It would be one thing if your concern was “I should let her know that this may be received badly”, but it sounds like you’re just annoyed by something that doesn’t actually affect you. Maybe you’re in BEC mode because you already don’t respect this person as a coworker, or maybe you’re just resentful that they appear to be getting away with things you wish you could get away with. Either way, I’d advocate that you try to resist the crabs-in-a-pot instinct to pull this person down about something that’s not actually important.

    1. Not-So-New Mom (of 1 8/9)*

      Because, as was repeatedly mentioned in the article and the response, it was incredibly distracting? And perhaps this person needs some help adjusting to professional norms?

    4. Blame it on the Weatherman*

      Because it’s rude, distracting, and unprofessional which impacts OP’s ability to do their own side of the training. It’s childish/sloppy enough behavior that it almost reads as passive aggressive at having the camera on.

    5. Lana Kane*

      Are we at the stage in our society where asking people to have a modicum of common sense is BEC territory?

    6. Irish Teacher.*

      I’m not the OP and would generally have a pretty high tolerance for “unprofessional” behaviour, but I have to admit that somebody squirming around on a bed and smoking while on a video call with me would be something I’d find uncomfortable. It feels a bit too much like I am spying on their personal life. Somebody sitting on the edge of a bed wouldn’t bother me in the least or even somebody lounging on one, but the whole impression here is of somebody in very relaxed, possibly about to sleep mode and honestly, I’d find the whole situation a bit awkward, “where am I supposed to look?” I can’t speak for the OP, of course, but it’s possible they feel similarly.

    7. K8T*

      It’s certainly not a “BEC” situation to find rolling around in bed and smoking on camera unprofessional.

    8. lilsheba*

      Yeah I gotta agree. None of this is actually important. They were engaged and asking questions and paying attention, that’s enough.

      1. Happy poet*

        “Yeah I gotta agree. None of this is actually important. They were engaged and asking questions and paying attention, that’s enough.”

        Wynn/Wynn’s friend, this isn’t a good look. At all. There are homeless people soiling themselves in the park who know better than to pull this kind of a stunt back when they had jobs.

    9. kanada*

      A lot of people in here who want to use “unprofessional conduct” as an excuse to punish behavior that doesn’t affect them but they find mildly off-putting. You’re not a good person just because your bullying is socially endorsed.

      1. Zap R.*

        You are projecting a whole lot of stuff onto this post/comment section/individual commenters and I am going to gently suggest that you take a step back.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I don’t think telling somebody, “hey, just so’s you know, the norm here is for us to sit at a desk when doing training. You really shouldn’t be lying on a bed” counts as punishing. It’s filling somebody in on the norms of where they are working and honestly, I think it’s kinder than letting them remain unaware of this and perhaps have people silently judging them.

        I haven’t seen anybody suggesting that this person be fired or put on a PIP or anything else I would consider punishment.

      4. Head sheep counter*

        Wynn, that you?

        We should all be so lucky as to have someone help when we aren’t getting something that is considered appropriate (as long as its done kindly and respectfully). I’d hate to find out after the fact that the reason I was not taken seriously is because of something I could have fixed.

        I don’t know why you/Wynn took the meeting while lying on your bed on your stomach and smoking… but… it isn’t generally the expected way that folk attend trainings and certainly not if they are taking the training seriously. If the reasons why aren’t apparent, perhaps think of talking to a respected person. Would you roll around in your private space while trying to gain the respect of said respected person? Your colleagues deserve to be, on some level, treated as a respected person. One never knows how one’s paths will cross with colleagues in the future. Burning bridges (or beds) over something so small would be unfortunate.

    10. Zap R.*

      OP is in a supervisory role and performing one-on-one skills training. It is totally appropriate in this context to gently tell Wynn to recalibrate their professional norms.

      On a similar note, it think there’s a tendency to assume that “professional norms” and “corporate culture” are either completely arbitrary or purposely designed to be oppressive. That’s not necessarily true. “Sit up and don’t smoke in meetings” is a good and useful professional norm because right now, Wynn’s demeanour and body language reads to others as them not taking meetings seriously. Everyone Wynn encounters won’t have insight into their personal life. It’s totally reasonable for someone to see a colleague rolling around in bed during a meeting and think “This person is ignoring me and my message isn’t getting through.”

      2. JustaTech*

        The note that Wynn did not take notes and the call was not recoded are relevant to the concern that Wynn was not getting what they would need from this training.
        Behaviors that indicate Wynn was paying attention: asking relevant questions.
        Behaviors that indicate Wynn was not paying attention: not taking notes, walking away, rolling around, smoking.
        (I’m specifically excluding “being on the bed” and “being prone” as those don’t have the same level of “not paying attention” to me.)

    11. Happy poet*

      OP cares because this is hurting your already shaky reputation at work, Wynn. Duh. How did you get this far in life having to be told, dont appear on camera at a work meeting while in bed, smoking?

  34. Mx Burnout*

    Well, if your workplace requires (or “expects”) people to have their cameras on at all times, you’re probably going to see some folks working in ways that differ from yours. So what if someone lays on their stomach? Assuming they’re not getting stoned at work, what does it matter if they smoke while working?

    Wynn was “engaged in the training, answering and asking questions appropriately,” so I don’t understand what the problem is, here. If the LW was bothered by Wynn’s on-camera behavior, there appear to have been opportunities to say so. Instead, they let their annoyance/discomfort grow over the course of a training that, by meaningful metrics, Wynn performed adequately at. The “what if?” questions — what if a supervisor is on the call, etc. — seem designed to drum up whatabout scenarios that didn’t, and may never, happen in an effort to make Wynn’s behavior seem more inappropriate/dire/unprofessional.

    It sounds like there’s plenty going on with Wynn’s performance otherwise before we start complaining that they lay on their stomach to type (a horror!), or need to move around a lot. Since we’re “what-abouting” here, what if Wynn had been a stellar performer? Would LW be similarly concerned about their behavior? Or would that be written off as just a little quirky?

    It’s kind of crappy to complain that someone didn’t behave in the way you would have liked — and especially to hold it against them — when you didn’t tell them you had a problem with their behavior in the first place.

    1. Blame it on the Weatherman*

      They’re not made to have their cameras on all day. For the length of a training meeting, you can have the basic conduct to sit up, wait to smoke until later, and generally be neutral out of respect for the fact that you are meeting with a coworker, not listening to a pre-recorded video.

      Being this unprofessional, whether through rudeness or complete lack of inability to get it together like an adult, is some thing that people are allowed to have a reaction to. No one saying to fire them, but if they need to be told to save their smoking and wriggling for like an hour later (when they’re not presenting themselves to another person) someone in a position of authority should know that they need to tell them that.

    2. NCA*

      Yeah, unexplained social expectations that don’t affect performance but still somehow ‘matter’ are…..less than ideal imo.

      1. Yours sincerely, Raymond Holt*

        “Yeah, unexplained social expectations that don’t affect performance but still somehow ‘matter’ are…..less than ideal imo.”

        That’s why the advice from Alison and most commentators is essentially that OP or Wynn’s manager should explain those norms.

    4. Denny Anonymous*

      Yep, all of this. Something that also stood out for me in the letter was that Wynn supposedly had issues “accepting feedback without excuses”. What does that mean? Is it that LW is the type of manager who expects people to accept feedback and not ask any further clarifying questions or provide any explanations?

      1. Yours sincerely, Raymond Holt*

        The OP didn’t say “they ask clarifying questions.” The OP says “making excuses.” That’s really different. We don’t have evidence that the OP objects to clarifying questions.

        1. Denny Anonymous*

          Too many people confuse “explanation” with “excuse”, especially in the workplace. Many managers see clarifying questions as insubordination or backchat or making excuses, just as many of them see providing an explanation as excuses.

          I’ve managed managers and supervisors for a long time, and any time one of them complains to me about someone on their team and says something like “they don’t accept feedback without making excuses”, without providing further details or context, I always investigate further. Most of the time, the issue is with the manager/supervisor, to be blunt.

  35. BellyButton*

    I forgot to give my advice! LOL I have spent years and years facilitating meetings, webinars, trainings virtually. Set the standard up front– “we treat these sessions the same as if we were in person.” For a 1:1 I am much more casual, but not lay on your stomach and roll around casual- I would have gently corrected them- “Wynn, all the movement is distracting, would you be able to move locations or maybe it is better to turn your camera off?”

  36. NotARealManager*

    Wynn’s manager needs to know how they were behaving on the call. It sounds like Wynn is already struggling with business norms and this needs to be added to the list for their manager to point to as a specific example.

    Could it be appropriate to take a work call like this? Maybe, if you know the person well on the other end of the call and you’ve established your behavior can be more casual when speaking together. But I would be mortified to behave like this on a work call (or even a casual call) with someone I didn’t know very well or at all.

  37. Katherine*

    OP says cameras on is “expected” but would it really be an option for Wynn to turn theirs off, as many commenters have suggested? I mean, I think camera off is the best answer (it’s infantilizing to expect everyone to have cameras on when they’re not speaking, but a lot of companies do that). If they were just told “cameras on” maybe they figured “Take me as I am”. lol. Also, just have to get this dig in: Teams sucks at virtual backgrounds. If you want people to use them, switch to Zoom. LOL

      1. JustaTech*

        And the OP offered to have Wynn not bother with the camera when they were having technical problems at the beginning of the call.
        “Due to that, I said we could continue with our training without requiring them to use their camera. However, Wynn was eventually able to connect their camera.”

        So Wynn having their camera on was their choice in this instance, and they went to at least some effort to connect it.

        (I don’t think a virtual background would have helped at all with the moving and the smoking except to maybe make it worse when they would disappear completely.)

  38. PotsPansTeapots*

    And I thought I was bold for taking meetings upright in bed with a blurred background, lol.

    1. PotsPansTeapots*

      Even though I work in an EXTREMELY casual WFH environment, I wouldn’t dream of behaving like Wynn on a call and I don’t think OP’s expectations are at all unreasonable.

  39. Breaking up is hard to due*

    I once worked with someone who would be topless on camera, and look like they hadn’t bathed or combed their hair in several days. The culture was not one where you had to be on camera either.

    This person was very high-up the food chain so to speak. To my knowledge, they were never reprimanded. (Shrug)

  40. juliebulie*

    I have a friend who literally cannot stop moving, with or without being on camera. Or, he can stop for a moment but will quickly forget and start moving again. He has ADHD, which may or may not be a factor (I have it too and I’m so still that someday I’ll get embalmed by mistake). My only point being that some people can’t help it, and rather than be annoyed by it, it’s sensible to accept that some people have their reasons for not wanting the camera on.

    My friend, alas, loves being on camera.

  41. Gingerbrave*

    During the pandemic, my coworker showed up in a bathing suit, by a pool in sunglasses, on a lounge chair. They were not on vacation. It was creepy, like we were interrupting their leisure time. It made the other ten people on the call uneasy (or envious). The optics were poor for a generally hard driven work force. Some staff complained and it didn’t happen again.

  42. La Triviata*

    Where I work has an exam for professional certification; while it’s administered at centers around the country, there’s the option to take it virtually with a proctor. One issue has been that if the person taking the exam moves around too much (by some standard), they’ll need to reschedule, since the moving around “too much” is taken as cheating.

  43. NCA*

    As an autistic/ADHD person who frequently fidgets, changes position, stims (including hair twirling when I had long hair), etc……. I’m now reevaluating how I myself am coming across on camera as a remote worker. I already have to mask /SO/ hard that I’m exhausted by the end of the workday, but reading this letter and all the comments agreeing that this kind of movement is rude and weird means yet one more social norm layer to the mask. Sigh. (NOT saying necessarily that this is what’s going on with the OP’s worker, of course)(And I’m generally considered a good worker. Then again, I /do/ put a ton of energy into masking)

    1. K8T*

      Are you literally rolling around on camera in bed? Has anyone come to you about your behavior on-camera? If “no” is the answer to both of those then you’re fine – no need to doom about this.

      1. Lana Kane*

        Agreed – there is a certain amount of movement that 1) is inevitable, and 2) would exist in person as well. Rolling around and changing positions (more than, say, shifting in your chair) repeatedly is distracting.

        NCA – if you have a coworker you are comfortable asking, have them tell you if your movements are coming across as distracting (if you’re truly worried). This is going to be very case dependent. Don’t stress just because of what you read – just use it as a reminder to check further if the comments raise a concern!

    2. BellyButton*

      Unless you are rolling around on the floor or in bed, your fidgets are probably not to the level of being distracting. I wouldn’t worry too much about it. If you do think you are moving around too much look for options- the under the desk pedals helps people a lot! or Fidget rings and spinners than can be off camera. I hold my coffee cup often to keep from touching my hair too much.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I’d say you’re OK. I think there is a big difference between stuff like changing position and hair twirling and lying on bed, smoking and moving around on it. I’m also somebody who fidgets a lot (possibly also autistic; I don’t know), but the LW’s actions would make me slightly uncomfortable, not because they are moving around a lot but because the way it is described sounds a lot to me like the way people act when they are in bed, getting ready to sleep or when they are ill in bed and seeing that strikes me as a bit too personal with a coworker.

      It’s the very specific situation here that reads as “person in very relaxed, acting like they are alone” mode.

    4. JustaTech*

      First, if you’re not literally rolling around you’re not anywhere near the level of this letter, so don’t think that this is a comparison directed at you.

      Second, there are a lot of people who don’t notice other people’s fidgets. I am not one of those people (that’s my ADHD fun), but I’ve had friends and coworkers with pretty strong movement habits that no one else seems to notice.
      For example: I have a coworker who is constantly chewing on something in meetings – pens, highlighters, spoons, carrots, gum, something. I jokingly commented on this habit to my boss (who attended the same meetings), saying that I was just waiting for Bob to show up on camera with a cigar a la Winston Churchill one of these days.
      My boss was all “huh?” He’d never noticed Bob’s chewing.

      Third, group meetings are different from 1:1s, both in terms of the amount of attention that is expected of you the attendee, and how much anyone else is paying attention to what you (one face among many) is doing. As long as your motions are relatively small (or off camera), chances are excellent that no one will notice (or care).

    5. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Chiming in with the choir that what you’re describing is not a problem.

      Most people will change their posture a bit every few minutes. And active listening is conveyed by facial expressions and nods just as much as it is by mm-hmms, etc.

    6. Garblesnark*

      I got a deskcycle secondhand that helps me with this; I wonder whether there’s something similar that would work for you? It’s pretty quiet (I had a few people do test meetings with me to make sure they couldn’t hear it during zoom or teams meetings) and it lets me move my legs as fast or slow as feels good. Once I swapped the wheels on my desk chair with bell casters, the other meeting participants couldn’t see me fidgeting at all.

    7. fhqwhgads*

      Have you seen the musical Bye Bye Birdie? Do any of the things you do on camera as a remote worker resemble things the teenage characters do in their bedrooms during the Telephone Hour number? If not, you’re probably ok.
      I do mean that literally.
      If the Wynn were only twirling hair, or only changing positions periodically, it wouldn’t be a big deal. It’s the combination of all the things the OP mentioned that adds up to not good. There’s a cumulative effect in play.
      But also, the starting off with the on the bell on the bed got Wynn the side-eye, and then the rest on top made it worse. If you’re sitting upright (0r standing) on camera, and not going in and out of frame repeatedly, you’re fine.

    8. Denny Anonymous*

      I am so sick to death of being forced to mask to meet neurotypical expectations that are literally made up.

      I was so excited when the silver lining of the pandemic was that a lot of these completely irrelevant norms were being see n for what they were: made up “rules” that don’t actually need to exist, and are actually a barrier to success for so many of us. I’m disappointed that so many are allowing us all to be dragged back to the old toxic status quo.

  44. Lizy*

    I just realized that the blanket fort in question was originally described as a “nest” – which I took to mean a pile of blankets and pillows and she was lounging on them. aka a floor-bed.

    I LOVE how the nest has become a fort and I seriously wonder how I can build a work-fort in my living room… (I work remotely)

    Anywho – smoking in your floor-bed or work-fort? Nah… Even taking a call from a floor-bed I think is pushing it. But IMO you can definitely take a call in your work-fort.

    1. BellyButton*

      My office is very casual, we are all remote- I have an outdoor egg chair, it is large enough I can sit crisscross apple sauce, in the early afternoon the sun is bright right behind me, so I throw a blanket over the top and back to block the sun so I can see my screen. it is very nest-like :)

    2. Check cash*

      My work-fort has an office, communication center, and break room. All made of pillows.

  45. Head sheep counter*

    And folks wonder why WFH gets curtailed… its as if the argument that having a professional work environment… is not needed if you are feral and at home. Your behavior on camera has impacts. And if OP is wishing to be kind to the offender here… working to make sure that appropriate professional norms are maintained… is a kindness. This will not be the only workplace that the offender will work in or for. And basic non-feral behavior is… the norm. We can (and should) all aspire to function within parameters for periods of time or to figure out how our cameras work if that fails.

  46. Dante's Disco Inferno*

    Could be worse-midway through the pandemic, I attended a group Zoom where one of the participants was lounging in bed, in a loosely tied robe and (ahem) personal accoutrements were hanging on the wall, clearly visible.

  47. Tea Monk*

    Yes , that’s why I like framing this as a norm and taking emotional language like immature out of it. The OP will be more able to explain it if they don’t think this person is trying to bother them specifically. People are different, ND or NT and one person might immediately guess the rule and have no difficulty and another might not. By making it morally neutral, we could probably reduce a lot of friction.

  48. Anita Brake*

    Ok, I understand the need for professionalism, but could we please work as a group (the whole of AAM) to speak to employers and start a trend of “Blanket Fort Thursdays?” I find by Thursday I’m tired from the work week, but by Friday I’m a little energized because of the upcoming weekend. Thanks for your consideration.

    1. AMH*

      I have always deeply identified with Arthur Dent’s “I never could get the hang of Thursdays.” It is truly the worst day of the week for me. I am all about Blanket Fort Thursdays!

  49. Agent Diane*

    I think a quiet work with Wynn’s supervisor might be wise, given you’re in social services sector. I don’t know if Wynn’s work involves vulnerable adults or children (as social services do in the UK) but I’d be seriously concerned at the idea they might be taking calls with clients the same way they had a call with you. The power imbalance is such that clients might not feel comfortable expressing their discomfort.

  50. Garblesnark*

    I know this was because I worked in hell at the time, but when I was at work between FMLAs when I had cancer, people were… ungenerous… with their remarks about my working from bed. It happened most during meetings that it was extremely silly for me to be required to attend. I was sitting up in bed, with a light on, and a lap desk, making video camera eye contact with them, and turning in my work correctly and on time unless I was on continuous FMLA leave.

    Dear powers in control of the universe, next time, can I please work for the sort of people who would hesitate to say anything to Wynn, who was rolling around in the bed and smoking during a training session?

  51. TrixieD*

    Back when Covid was A Thing, we transitioned our monthly manager meetings to Zoom. Lo and behold, one of our more problematic managers appeared in the monthly meeting wearing a bathrobe. Just a bathrobe.
    All of us were pretty slack-jawed, but our mild-mannered manager didn’t say much of anything to her about the robe. Come to find out a few years later that she was not doing her job, wasn’t where she was supposed to be when she said she was, and had over 30 “new” messages on her voicemail that she hadn’t fetched in months.
    She was finally booted into the ether. That was a good day.

  52. Raida*

    I feel like this is a time where you need to distinguish “Working” with “Looks good on camera” with them

    I’d explain that I understand they can effectively train while moving around and I do not expect every person on staff to have a dedicated office in their home.
    I’d also explain that it… looks bad. But I’d need to get some bullet points on *what* is off about it and *why* so that they’d have some guidelines to work from in the future.

    You’ve already got a few – blur function/virtual background.

    Movement – telling someone that needs to move around they *look bad* when doing it is not supporting them in training or giving them the skills to focus without movement. Being supportive of them in finding on-camera movements that work with their need to move, and giving them a few guidelines on what are the biggest ones to avoid – going out of frame, wriggling, flipping over, etc. Perhaps desk pedals would be good movement completely out of frame, perhaps fidget tools for their hands, perhaps front loading the session with a statement they’ll hop up every ten minutes to swing their arms and lunge, etc.

    Smoking – probably going to be fine, would suggest front-loading an acknowledgement of the smoking at the beginning of the video session clearly stating “I am far more focussed when I have a cigarette, very glad none of you need to worry about your space being invaded by the smoke” and avoid chain smoking, pulling tobacco off your lips, playing with the smoke.

  53. Melissa2*

    I do telehealth mental health assessments for people who have been convicted of a crime, in order to write a report to Court for their sentencing. I’m not judging them but it’s high stakes for my clients and they are clearly trying to be on their best behaviour. In over 500 assessments, only two people have done them in bed. One was vaping throughout, which is illegal in my country, and the other was a sex offender who was shirtless, so these were two people who reaaaallly didn’t understand context. The point I’m making is that, even in people who have disregarded societal norms enough to commit a crime, over 99% of them knew not to take the meeting from bed.

  55. nnn*

    Tangential, but I enjoy the fact that, within my lifetime, we’ve gone from openly smoking in offices being seen as normal to openly smoking while working at home being seen as unprofessional.

    (I think people should be allowed to smoke at home, and also I enjoy how much smoking has fallen from grace. Both things are true.)

    1. allathian*

      Yes, I definitely agree with you on this.

      People should definitely be allowed to smoke at home, at least as long as the smoke from their home isn’t going to bother other people in the same apartment building. If landlords have been able to ban immigrants, especially those from some parts of the Middle-East and Africa, from burning incense in their apartments, they should be able to ban smoking as well.

  56. Indolent Libertine*

    Total empathy for all those who need to fidget or stim or otherwise move around more than is considered “standard.” But I really don’t want to have to watch a coworker rolling around on their bed. That’s just too intimate to be appropriate for a work meeting.

  57. Dancing Otter*

    A fair number of comments are suggesting neurodivergence for the amount of movement during the training. It may be more physical.
    The training Zoom was fairly lengthy, I gather? If I tried to hold still for over an hour, no matter how comfortable my position seemed initially, I’d be pretty uncomfortable. Aching joints, muscles stiffening up, something. And sprawled on my stomach wouldn’t even be comfortable to begin, let alone remain for any length of time.
    But I’ve learned to wiggle my feet and ankles under the table, flex my shoulders a bit at a break in the conversation, open and close my fingers around my pen out of camera range, generally hold still enough not to be a distraction. Like, you know, an adult, not a child who can’t wait to get out to recess.
    Why on earth was the camera positioned to show that much of Wynn’s body in the first place?

    1. Denny Anonymous*

      Many people, including neurodivergent people, concentrate better, and can actually take information in, if they’re able to move around. Making us mask and perform sitting still shoots us in the foot as we won’t actually be able to learn as well, or at all.

      It is clear that Wynn was listening, learning, and engaging in the training. A simple workaround is to allow people to turn their cameras off.

  59. New Senior Mgr*

    This was the laugh I needed before Seder! I can’t stop.

    Private dancer employee needs a 1:1 on professionalism, including while working remotely, office norms, and minimum work expectations.

Comments are closed.