open thread – May 9, 2014

by Alison Green on May 9, 2014

photo 2-4It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

{ 1,513 comments }

{ 1,513 comments… read them below }

  1. LBK*

    I have a success story I wanted to share! I have been feeling very undervalued in my position lately – I work in sales support, which can be a demoralizing role because the glory and the big paychecks always tend to go to the salespeople. The final straw came this week when we had our quarterly division meeting and despite basically revamping everything our department does over the last quarter, I still got no recognition or any mention while the salespeople I support all got awards.

    It was really tempting to either stop putting effort into my work as retaliation for never feeling appreciated or to blow up in my boss’s face about how he had hurt my feelings, but then I thought “What would Alison do?” So I took a few hours to calm down and consolidate my thoughts into concise, business-focused points, and then pulled my manager into a conference room to discuss. I laid out how I was realistic about my role, but that I also felt that there was no effort being made to recognize or compensate me for my performance since it couldn’t be measured in sales dollars. I asked if either I wasn’t being clear enough when new initiatives were my idea (since I tend to be shy about taking credit) or if I was actually overvaluing my contributions, and what I considered exceptional work was just par for the course in my manager’s eyes. I also brought up that I had been holding off on discussing compensation since we’re behind on our sales goals, so it didn’t seem justifiable from a business perspective to be asking for more money.

    The response was fantastic. My manager said I was an integral part of the team and the division as a whole, and that he wished he had an easier/better way to reward me for that but he honestly didn’t know what I would want. He told me to come up with a few options for what he could to to make me feel more appreciated (higher salary, better bonus plan, department-wide recognition, etc.) and bring them to him, and he would talk to the head of our division to see what could be implemented. He was also impressed that I had weighed the business’s needs when deciding if I should say something, and that I was always welcome to bring these issues forward at any time even if any changes would have to be postponed until sales went up.

    I owe a huge debt of gratitude to Alison and the AAM community – I absolutely would not have had the courage to bring this up with my manager directly or the means to approach it in a rational, non-emotional way if it weren’t for everything I’ve read here over the last few months. So thank you all! You will be receiving your consulting fee checks in 6-8 weeks once my raise kicks in :)

    1. Betsy*

      That is fantastic! Good for you for taking the initiative, and good for your manager for recognizing your value and taking steps to give you the recognition and reward you deserve.

          1. Laufey*

            Oh, those are by the register, so you don’t forget them when you check out.

    13. Sydney*

      That is awesome! Congratulations, and it’s a wonderful thing you will get the recognition and rewards you deserve!

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        This is what I’m planning to do in my new job, when it starts and hopefully it will go as well as this :)

  2. Elkay*

    I have a cat feeding question based on your sponsored post – did you have any trouble getting your cats to switch from dry to wet? Mine just licks all the gravy off the pieces of meat then turns her nose up at the food even if we mash it up. Any hints gratefully received, she needs to put on weight.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I didn’t, but my cats have always loved wet food and seen it as a treat. However, there are some types they don’t like as much, like the cans that are sort of meat slices with gravy; they like the ones with the consistency of chopped liver much better. So you might try different types and see if you can find consistency that go over better.

      Also, they adore Tiki Cat chicken, which basically looks like shredded chicken that a human would eat; it looks nothing like normal cat food and I refuse to believe any cat would turn it down.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        Our two are just the opposite. They prefer the meat with gravy to the pate. Our vet even has us mixing a little extra water into the gravy, so they get a little extra moisture.

        1. Cautionary tail*

          Yes to the extra water. We used to give our cat dry food and learned they can’t get enough water that way so now we add about a teaspoon of water into the canned food. In the wild cats get a lot of their moisture from their kills and since we have a killing cat the dry food wasn’t all that much of an issue. I have a photo of the Easter bunny’s internal organs spread across my driveway after my cat was finished with it so I apologize that forthwith the role of springtime egg carrier will need to be passed on to some other cute furry creature. A ferret perhaps?

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Alison, I’ve increased wet feeding based on your post, and I think I’ll try the Sheba. Hopefully it’s not as expensive as the freaking special stuff she likes. She can’t eat the cheap crap–it makes her barf.

        She does get dry food mostly, but it’s grain-free. And did I mention expensive? Damn cat eats better than I do. :P

        You should see her eat–it’s hilarious. If I go out to fix her bed while she’s eating, she talks with her mouth full and dribbles kibble everywhere. :D

          1. C Average*

            Actually, it sounds like the cats and dogs conquer.

            (Sorry. I know we’re not supposed to pick on spelling/grammar stuff, but this one is funny!)

    2. NotMyRealName*

      Do not feed the “meaty bits” just the pate. One of mine will just lick off the gravy and leave the rest to rot (yuck!). But with the pate style, she has to eat the meat to get her favorite part. Not that mine needs to gain weight, unfortunately.

    3. Cruciatus*

      Are you using shredded bits or “pâté”? My cats love wet food, but tend to only lick the gravy off shredded bits. But even with the pâté forms, they can be picky. I believe they like captain’s choice and the supreme supper in the Friskies brand, but tend to dislike the turkey and salmon ones. So, my only advice is to keep trying different ones/brands until you find the one your cat loves. Though it’s possibly your cat just prefers dry stuff. There are different varieties with different caloric values. Maybe talk to your vet and see if there’s anything they recommend either wet or dry for adding weight.

      1. Elkay*

        The vet’s suggestion was “Uh maybe feed them separately” (boy cat is on the verge of chubby and bullies his sister out of food) but that’s not a feasible solution because they both freak out if they’re shut in anywhere.

        1. GigglyPuff*

          what about a cheap baby gate? we use that to feed our dogs separately…assuming they eat it in one sitting (which I know is much healthier for dogs weight wise instead of grazing all day, no idea about cats though)

          1. De Minimis*

            I have to stand there and supervise our dogs’ mealtimes, our dachshund will push her way into stealing the other dog’s food. Of course, it’s easier to keep dogs from doing things than it would be cats, or at least the cats I’ve known….

            1. GigglyPuff*

              Yes, luckily we have a hallway with a door, so we use that sometimes too. There are three dogs in my house, and usually the rat dog gets growled at first because he finishes and then walks around. But my dog specifically, will bite the others if they actually try to take her food.

              We’d had my dog and the rat dog for a couple months, and I got them a treat ball. Mine got the concept straight away, while the rat dog just tried to chew through the ball to the treats. Mine spent maybe 30 mins. trying to get the last treat out of the ball, and didn’t realize it had come out onto the carpet, so the rat tried to sneak up and take it, my girl whipped around and totally bit him on the ear…the rat didn’t stop shaking for two days, and now has a raised scar on his ear…upside he’s never tried to steal her food again, (only our third dog, who luckily just growls at him since he wouldn’t dare stop the vacuum that is his mouth while eating)

          2. Elkay*

            They’d jump it, currently both can and will jump 3-4 feet to get up on top of our tall bookcases.

            1. fposte*

              Can you shut in the one getting fed and leave the other one to roam? Food might be enough of a consolation.

        2. Cruciatus*

          The bullying thing…does the other cat just edge her out of her food dish, or is he actually attacking/hissing, etc.? She may just be afraid to eat in general and brand/type of food becomes moot. I don’t know if something like Feliway would help with calming the bully cat. But I am unimpressed with your vet!

            1. Elizabeth West*

              An ex and I used to have a gelding that would do that. We had to feed him first and then feed the mare really fast, so she could get some grain while he was chomping on his. Then he would amble over and shove his nose into her dish.

        3. EchoSparks*

          One of my cats eats on top of a short bookshelf in the dining room, the other eats on the kitchen floor. Floor cat is not allowed on that bookshelf, period. Every one in awhile he’ll still try to sneak on and eat bookshelf cat’s food, but for the most part he knows he isn’t allowed up there.

        4. The Real Ash*

          Can you set down wet food in two separate bowls and then monitor the cats? I had two foster kittens that I had to feed that way because one of them would crowd the other one out. And then of course he would go try to eat his sister’s food instead of his, even though it was the same thing…

        6. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

          I have cats with a similar dynamic. I feed the fatty by the bathroom sink, and the girl up on the kitchen counter. He will come over and look at her food, but I can hear him jump up and take the plate away.

          I also bought them a CatIt bubble fountain, and fatty especially likes that (he also likes to drink out of the shower faucet).

      2. Elkay*

        D’uh should have said we try to feed her the wet stuff when he goes out for his morning constitutional, she doesn’t like the great outdoors.

    4. Hous*

      I have a related cat-feeding question! I have two cats. One is quite slim, the other is just getting fatter and fatter. I’m planning to switch them to wet food this weekend, but does anyone else have any tips on trying to make one cat slimmer without punishing the one who naturally eats less?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I worry one of ours, Lucy, doesn’t get enough food, largely because massive Sam scarfs it all down first, but Lucy is also the only one who jumps up on counters. So I sometimes put a dish with extra food on the counter for her, knowing that she’ll be able to eat it in peace. Would something like that work?

        1. Hous*

          It might! At the moment the slimmer cat is the only one who gets up on the counters, but I’ve been trying to break her of the habit. Since that isn’t working anyway, maybe I should just lean into it and put her food on the counter and see if it helps or just encourages the other cat to start jumping up there as well.

          1. theotherjennifer*

            I love that – “lean in” to the cat on the counter…whatever works. Maybe the other guy will lose weight trying to jump up!

      2. LBK*

        How picky are they about their flavors? Can you test out different ones and see if there’s a flavor that the fat cat won’t eat but the skinny one will? Even when my cat was overweight, she wouldn’t touch any fish-based wet food.

      3. ExceptionToTheRule*

        Avoid true free feeding. If you feed them at specific times then the skinnier cat is actually hungry when the food is presented and she’ll eat.

        We split the difference in our house. We have out a minimal amount of dry food all day, but feed the wet food at specific times.

      4. EchoSparks*

        The biggest thing you can do is switch to wet food and feed them separately. If they can graze on dry food all day the overweight cat will never lose weight.

        An 8lb cat should eat a 5.5 oz can of wet food per day. Cats should have 30 calories per pound they weigh per day, so you use that as a guide for scaling up or down for your cats. However, you should be feeding overweight cat based on what she *should* weigh, not what she actually does. My cats are 8lb and 9lb, they both have one 5.5oz can a day; 1/2 in the morning before I go to work, 1/4 when I get home from work, and 1/4 before I go to bed.

      5. Persephone Mulberry*

        Our cats need to be on separate foods, and we feed them in separate rooms – one in the kitchen and one in the bedroom/bathroom with the door shut, and we pick it up as soon as they’re done eating. We trained them to this routine by dishing out their allotted servings, putting down the food, and picking it up as soon as one or the other indicated they were done (skinny cat has a very short attention span), then putting it down again 2-3 times at 20-30 minute intervals. We kept an eye on how much food they were eating at a time, and as they caught onto the routine they started eating more per interval so that now we only have to separate them once in the morning and once at night.

      6. Seal*

        At one point I had a pair of elderly cats and a 4 month old kitten with an appetite. One of my old guys was on a special diet for kidney issues, which was quite bland, so he was always after the kitten food because it tasted better. Since the kitten would eat anything, he wound up in the bathroom while he snarfed down his moist food; his dry food was up on the counter where the elderly cats couldn’t get it. In their prime my old guys were big jumpers and climbers, but by the end of their lives they were quite content with laying on the couch in the sun. After a few days the kitten knew he’d get his wet food in the bathroom and ran in to wait when I got the food out.

        My elderly cats passed away within 2 weeks of each other – one of kidney failure, the other of a broken heart. The kitten – by now 7 months old – had always been very deferential to them, happy to snuggle with them but rarely tried to wrestle or play because they made it clear they weren’t interested. The first few days after the second one passed, the poor guy was confused because he didn’t have to eat in the bathroom anymore. He also needed a friend, so I adopted a female about his age. Now they’re both young adults; he still inhales his food, while she nibbles until he comes over to steal what’s left of hers. Ironically enough, he’s very slim and she’s a bit heavier – go figure.

      7. Monodon monoceros*

        When I needed my skinny old lady kitty to eat more, I mixed some tuna water into the wet food to get her to eat it. She also is picky about eating the same food too long. She will eat the pate style for a few days, then suddenly will only eat the kind with the chunks, then wants the pate again. What a princess…. but anyway, try mixing it up, both with tuna, and with different types of food.

    5. Meredith*

      Our two leaning-toward-senior cats have always just had two dishes of dry food out for them to eat whenever they want. (I probably would not have done this, but they were my boyfriend’s cats for about 10 years before I met him and that’s what he has always done.) One is a chunk, and the other is kind of boney even though he eats a lot. The skinnier one also has a pretty sensitive stomach that leads to some fairly gross litter box productions, so I’m concerned that wet food would really set him off. We found a dry food that seems to agree with him a lot better, and we buy pretty high-quality food. I’m not sure how well they would tolerate a change at this point, because they are definitely grazers and eat multiple small meals per day. They don’t seem to get in each other’s way (one doesn’t crowd the other out). However, I am a bit concerned about the heavier cat, as she is pretty sedentary and could be heading on the road to diabetes because food is always available to her. They have a vet appointment this week, so we’ll see what happens.

      Do cats just not register thirst the same way, and therefore don’t drink as much as they should? They do have plenty of water set out for them at all times.

      1. Anonylicious*

        Well, cats’ digestive systems are actually pretty good at conserving water. They get a lot of the moisture they need from their diet, especially if you feed them wet. (I don’t, because I’ve found a specific dry food that’s the only thing that agrees with my cat’s stomach, and now I can never switch.) Even though my cat eats dry food, she still doesn’t drink a whole lot of water. As long as your cats are peeing regularly, I wouldn’t worry about it. Just keep the water fresh and they’ll drink when they’re thirsty.

        1. Meredith*

          Yeah, that’s kind of what I thought. They seem to be using the litter box just fine. I would prefer to just keep them on the dry food they’re on, because it agrees with both of them.

          1. mina*

            Take care – until recently we were a dry food only household. Two bouts of constipation later, we are now wet food only, with a very expensive but worth it water fountain with twin waterfalls, the Drinkwell Pagoda. This is what not enough water consumption leads to!

            1. Monodon monoceros*

              Also male cats are more prone to developing crystals in their urine, and then getting urinary blockages, which is life threatening. One way to avoid this is more moisture in their diet, so wet food is great for male cats.

    6. samaD*

      I’ve had one cat who was incredibly picky about canned food – he wouldn’t eat pate, would only lick the gravy off the other kind, and wouldn’t consider touching anything from any can that had been opened and refrigerated. He’d scarf dry though, and loved sliced liver.

      Other than that, I’ve had very good luck with kinds that are just shredded chicken (though read the can, because some of them aren’t a complete diet) and anything that doesn’t have fish.
      Just try her on a variety, and hopefully you’ll find one she loves *fingers crossed* (get the wee cans while trying if possible – it’s more expensive per can, but you end up wasting less)

    7. Haley*

      We had a big challenge switching one of our cats from dry to wet food. The bottom line is that once they get hungry enough, they will eat what’s there! To transition, it took at least a month, but please stick it out – it really is worth it for their health!

      What we did: start by giving a tiny bit of the dry food your cat likes with an even tinier bit of the new wet food. You can hide the wet food under the dry food at first. This will get him used to the flavor and texture of the wet food. Continue doing this and gradually increase the ratio of wet to dry food until it’s all wet food.

      By the way, after I saw a post on here a few months back about Sheba, I thought I’d try it. It is WAY less expensive than the other grain-free stuff out there. Our cats have loved it ever since!

    9. Feed Fido, Feed Fluffy*

      I’d second Tiki Cat, esp. the seafood variety. I think it’s crab surmi. My cats tend to lick the gravy (ick) off the food too. They seem to do better with the shredded formula and, again, Tiki is chunky and gobbled up fast. Choosing a pet food is difficult, especially cat foods as I haven’t found a good guide to them. I learned from the Blue Buffalo site (pet food company) that the top 10 ingredients usually comprise 80% or more of a dry pet food’s entire formula and give you a real insight into the formula’s overall quality. And I know meat ( as first ingredient, not corn), not byproducts, is best for our furry family members.

      1. Elkay*

        I think we may have hit on something with chicken pate mixed with the chicken yoghurt she loves.

    10. Hcat*

      After a real bad illness, my cat had no appetite, and made even worse by the antibiotics I had to shove down his throat every day for weeks. Anyhow, he needed to eat, and I didn’t know what to do, so I took him to the vet and he gave me some appetite stimulants. It worked like a charm, he started eating, and getting stronger and healthier. I did it for a few days and once he started eating on his own, and getting into a routine again, I stopped. While medication is not the best route, being malnourished is far worse. Just another option.

  3. Who are you?*

    WOO HOO! I’m in early!!!

    Is it appropriate to call the person who interviewed you for a job when that person is your supervisor at the temp job
    you’re currently working at? A little history: I have been a temp at a fantastic company for over 6 months. Several
    months ago I was notified by my supervisor that a postion would be opening soon. I had told her that I was interested,
    followed up appropriately when I noticed that the job hadn’t been posted in the time frame she’d indicated, and was
    notified when the position was posted and urged to apply. Approximately 3 weeks after filling out the application I was
    contacted for an interview which went rather well! That was 2 weeks ago.
    During the interview my supervisor mentioned that they were looking to fill this position immediately and she even
    mentioned wanting to do it before the next pay cycle. A pay cycle has come and gone and my anxiety is high. Would it be
    all right to drop an email asking for an update? I know that there were several internal candidates being interviewed as
    well. It’s possible that I was passed over for them. The thing is, there’s another position opening soon and I’ve been
    approached by several people to apply for that one.
    I don’t know what to do. Advice? Anyone??

    1. fposte*

      I’d drop her an email rather than calling her and ask if she has an idea of the hiring time frame. If she doesn’t answer, don’t ask again.

      And go ahead and apply for the other job. Don’t wait for this one. If you get an offer from the other one and you’re still interested in the first one, you can let them know that you have another offer, indicate your interest in their position, and ask if they expect to make a decision by [time that job 2 needs to know].

  4. Katie the Fed*

    OK, more wedding talk. I like you folks because you seem practical. The wedding boards scare me.

    Wedding favors – yay or nay? If we do them, would probably be something consumable because really nobody keeps the souvenir stuff. But is it worth the effort?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I agree with the consumable gifts. The last thing anyone needs is a plastic mold of the bride and groom.
      But I don’t expect a favor, and I wouldn’t miss it if I didn’t get one. Actually the best favor I got was the floral arrangement on the table. The bride said we could decide who at the table wanted the flowers.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        BTW, I totally missed the part about the plastic mold, ha. We could have ourselves made into action figures!

        I’m going to do that with the flowers – I don’t need 10 bouquets when I’m prepping for a honeymoon and trying to finish thank-you notes :)

        1. Jessa*

          There is a really cool company that does head sculpts for various sized action figures. You COULD actually do that. It’s a bit pricey though.

    2. Liz in a Library*

      I have never noticed if the couple didn’t do favors, and honestly most of the time they are things I don’t need. So, I’d lean toward no.

    3. Betsy*

      It seems dumb, but people really do like them. I wouldn’t put much effort into them, though: a little tulle baggie with some Hershey kisses or the like. You don’t need to buy custom ones with your wedding date printed on it or anything.

      If you want to leave them out, you can, but they provide a source of interest and conversation while people are waiting for the wedding party to arrive. I think every wedding I’ve ever attended, there has been some conversation, either about the favors or the lack of them.

    4. Anne 3*

      I think they’re cute! If your guests are flying in, make sure they can take the consumable treat on the plane though!

      1. Anne 3*

        The last wedding I went to, they gave out mini jars of honey and homemade vanilla extract.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, and I travel carryon only, so I’d have had to toss those. That would have made me sad!

          1. Lily in NYC*

            I can’t imagine they were larger than the 3 oz. limit. I really like this idea!

            1. fposte*

              Ah, I thought Anne 3 meant that they were larger. If they’re small enough, I agree totally that they’d be delightful.

              (I’m still smarting over the pear jam I had to jettison in the Quebec airport.)

              2. A Bug!*

                Tiny jars of honey should be fairly easy to source if you can find a restaurant supply company that’s willing to sell to the public (or a connection in the restaurant industry willing to order for you). I have one in my cupboard that I got from a hotel breakfast buffet. I think they’d make excellent wedding favors.

                (I tried to eat it one day but my partner threw a fit because he wanted to keep it as a souvenir. :( He won’t even let me eat the honey and carefully preserve the jar. Same for the tiny glass bottles of ketchup we boosted from a bunch of spent room-service trays. Whyyyyyy)

                1. Jill-be-Nimble*

                  I went to a great wedding where the favors were tiny jars of a special loose-leaf tea blend chosen by the bride and groom (symbolizing the “blending” of their families!) It was delicious and adorable. (And I stole far more than my fair share, but shhhhhh…)

        2. Diana*

          We did the mini jars of honey at our wedding for favors and it went over really well. Turned out to be a decently fun craft for the wedding party to put together. Design your own label (super easy) and if you want to go the extra mile, source it locally.

    5. Kai*

      I’ve decided against them for my upcoming wedding. My sister and I spent hours putting together cute little favors for all 150 guests for her wedding last summer, and most of them were left behind. My hunch is that people won’t even notice if you don’t have them.

      1. Lucy*

        OMG, I have ended up on some of those wedding boards and they scared me off!

        My cousin got married in April, and they had coozies made with their names and the date. What was nice is that they were included in the welcome bags in the hotel rooms, with bottles of water inside- so you got a favor but didn’t have to remember to pick it up at the end of the wedding night. Generally though, I would say it’s not worth the effort!

    6. Who are you?*

      I did favors at my wedding and it wasn’t worth it. If you wanted to do a favor, what about opting to send a slice of cake home with your guests in a cute little box with your wedding date and names on it? That way it also frees your guests up for more dancing at the reception and really, isn’t that what guests love about receptions???

    7. Stephanie*

      I like consumables! My friend got married in Atlanta and gave everyone Vidalia onion jam or peach jam. It was a nice local touch and delicious. Just make it small enough that people can bring it back in their carry-ons.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I like that because it’s local too. At first I thought you were going to say they gave everyone a vidalia onion – that would be awesome :)

        1. saro*

          I had to sell Vidalia onions to raise money for JV soccer. I still think this is a great idea. :)

        2. A Bug!*

          You could feature vidalia onions in the centerpieces for the tables. I would be really delighted at something like that, but then, I like the smell of fresh whole onions and I think vegetables generally are nice to look at.

      2. Wren*

        My fiancee is from Walla Walla, so his family would DIE if we used Vidalias. I’m giggling just thinking of the freak out.

    8. LBK*

      I went to a wedding where they had the favors all on a table on the way out, so if you wanted one as a keepsake or whatever you were welcome to take it, but you wouldn’t feel obligated like if it were sitting on your plate at your reception table. I think that’s a good compromise.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        A friend of a friend got married and put out a big table with all the couple’s favorite local food stuff: jellies, local cheese, honey, apples (it was a fall wedding), and I think some other things. There were reusable grocery bags with the couple’s names on them, and people were encouraged to take whatever they wanted. I love this idea–I would actually take a bunch of stuff–but I think it was expensive and a lot of stuff was left over.

        1. Jessa*

          But the advantage is if it was all their fave stuff, they’d probably use it ultimately if it was left over. I think the idea is good but someone should be at the table helping people out so people won’t be all “omg what if I take more than I should.”

    9. AdminAnon*

      I’ve been to 6 weddings since January and 4 of them have involved favors. I only kept one of them (etched shot glass). In my opinion, keep favors either consumable or practical. If it’s something that I can use after the fact, great. Otherwise, I live in a tiny apartment and it’s not worth storing. For me, it probably wouldn’t be worth the effort or expense. Just my opinion :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Ditto for me. I don’t want house clutter. I cannot tell you how many weddings I went to growing up where my folks were sent home with glasses that had gold writing. It looks cute in the store, but not so much after twenty years on a kitchen shelf.
        Now if there is a favor for the guests, my heart sinks a little. I catch myself saying “They could have used the money on something that matters.”

    10. Elysian*

      I wasn’t going to do them for my wedding, but my grandmother insisted. So, she got to do them. I never notice or care about favors when I attend weddings, so it didn’t matter to me.

    11. Katie the Fed*

      So what I was thinking of is little jars of Old Bay seasoning because it’s in Maryland and there will be crab cakes at the wedding. So that’s consumable but doesn’t have to be immediately consumable. I also don’t know if I care that much. There are LOT of wedding things I don’t care about. When people talk to me about themes and colors I want to jam a dessert fork into my eye.

      1. krm*

        I think thats a really cute idea. It is also something you could easily delegate to an aunt or someone in your life that wants to be involved in wedding preparations but doesn’t know where to start.

        1. Cautionary tail*

          Please be clearer. I read the comment as it would be cute to jam a dessert fork into my eye and that’s a task that could be easily delegated.

          3. Vancouver Reader*

            Lol! I’d designate the pushy friend of the family, but put them in a room far, far away.

      2. Aunt Vixen*

        We’re not doing favors. When the subject came up, we couldn’t think of anything we really thought would be us-specific, and we sure didn’t want to do it just because other people have done it before. We don’t expect anyone to notice, or if they do, to care.

        True story: we booked our venue five and a half months out, because that was how much time we had, and the coordinator there said sometimes a quicker planning period is better – she had a couple who booked more than eighteen months out and between then and the wedding the bride changed her theme four times. We kind of looked at each other and back at her and said “I’m pretty sure our theme is going to be ‘We’re getting married today.'”

        We did have to give the florist some color-scheme ideas to work with, but beyond that, the theme is “wedding”.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Yeah for flowers I’m just doing fall palette – I actually found some I really like at costco and fiftyflowers.

          1. Steph*

            We learned in planning our wedding that some things are important to a couple and some aren’t. And to focus on the stuff that matters to you and don’t spend a lot of time focusing on the stuff that doesn’t because it isn’t worth it.

            Personally, I worked at a florist shop in high school, so flowers were the one thing I did want to do well.

            My husband scheduled like 10 cake tastings for us because he wanted to pick out a really really good cake (also, he got excited after finding out that the cake tastings were free, lol).

            Some of our friends are big foodies, so their wedding had super pricey caterers.

            My sister, who is getting married this fall, wanted a destination wedding that she didn’t have to worry about the details for, so she spent a lot of time figuring out locale and selecting a good planner who will do all the rest for her.

            The only thing I would say is usually a important for all weddings is a good photographer. I’ve seen what happens if you don’t get a good one (not our wedding but a friend’s).

            1. Katie the Fed*

              The photographer was pretty much the only thing I REALLY cared about – she was the first thing I booked after the venue/food.

        2. Chinook*

          My wedding was only 3 months after the engagement, so time to prep was short. DH and I went with bookmarks because we are readers and didn’t mind if we had extras left over. We were also able to be flexible on what it looked like because we had no wedding colour pallette. Frankly, with all the groomsmen in different military uniforms (Cdn air force colouration do clash with the army ones), I just told the women not in uniform (we had one female groomsmen) to wear a certain style of dress in whatever colour they wanted and chose whatever flowers were available.

          1. Arjay*

            We did bookmarks, mostly because I loved them, hershey kisses, and a handful ot trivial pursuit cards. I met my husband playing trivia, so it was meaningful to us and worked as an icebreaker at the tables.

        3. C Average*

          My husband and I had talked many times about getting married in Boston at his parents’ house. We go there for the marathon every April, and figured we’d just do it then. When we got engaged in December, we initially planned to get married two Aprils later, i.e., a year from the next April.

          But the more we talked about it, the more we didn’t want to wait. So we decided to just do it. We got engaged in December and got married in April, just four months later.

          Admittedly, not everyone can do this. Our wedding was really small (immediate family only). No attendants, no venue. I made my dress. His father performed the ceremony. We had dinner catered at his parents’ house. His sister arranged the flowers and cake. We had no invitations, no favors, no photographer, no musicians. (His brother-in-law took some great snapshots, and we played a mix we’d made of our favorite songs during dinner.)

          It was intimate and lovely and one of the best days of my life. I’m really happy that I didn’t spend a whole extra year of my life sweating details that didn’t matter, and that instead I got to spend a whole extra year of my life MARRIED!

          2. Jax*

            Love this story.

            My cousin had a small wedding (25 guests) at a local mansion/museum. They had the service in the gardens, and an old fashioned luncheon reception afterward. It was beautiful and perfect for the couple–they are both history PhD’s.

            My aunt planned it and I’m sure it wasn’t cheap, but it looked simple and cozy and somehow better than a big church blowout.

          3. Windchime*

            My son and his fiancé are doing something similar. They have been engaged for about a month. Yesterday they set their date for about 4 months away. They’ve already booked a nice small, casual venue. She will either wear her mother’s dress or buy a white sundress. They will each have one attendant each and it sounds like the reception will be very simple. They are choosing to have a simple wedding so they can have a great honeymoon.

            I would be super surprised if there were favors or a “theme”. Maybe I’ll try to find some M&M’s with their initials or something.

      3. Lamington*

        I would take the Old Bay for sure. I will suggest ypu order less than you need so you don’t have left overs. our theme was love birds so we bought nice Christmas ornaments in the shape of birds we ran out thankfully.

      4. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Ooh, how about you put a six pack of Flying Dog Dead Rise ale on every table? (It’s a summer ale made with Old Bay!) :d

      5. saro*

        I really like this idea. It’s also dry so it’s good for those traveling by plane to your wedding.

      6. TotesMaGoats*

        Maryland in the house! Did you know that you can buy Crab Chips from Utz by the crate? That might be a fun option as well.

        I honestly can’t remember if we had favors at my wedding or not. 9 years ago now. I should be able to remember that, right?

        Everyone devoured our cake, so there really wasn’t a need for anything else. Sugarbakers in Catonsville, if you haven’t already found a bakery. My mom and I help arrange weddings, if you have any questions or need help. We don’t help you pick flowers or colors or anything like that but we do have a great spreadsheet that keeps track of everything and a down to the minute schedule.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Thank you! The bakery is the next thing I need to find. We’re doing pies but may also have a cake (thinking maybe a Smith Island Cake)

          1. TotesMaGoats*

            The only thing I was adamant about was having chocolate cake with chocolate icing. Had one baker say it would photograph bad and wouldn’t do. Sugarbakers did and it was awesome. The only cake that was left was the topper that was saved for us. And we ate that in about 3 months then got the one they make for your 1st anniversary. We had 300 ppl at our reception, so that was a lot of cake. A pie buffet would be cool.

            I don’t get the wedding cake and then dessert table thing. Seems like overkill.

        2. Katie the Fed*

          I just looked up the bulk Utz crab chips – I think those’ll be perfect for the out-of-town welcome bags :)

          1. Stephanie*

            Man, this thread is making me miss MD food. Can you incorporate pit beef somehow as well? :)

      7. Muriel Heslop*

        As a former event/wedding planner, I would say: scrap anything you aren’t enthusiastic about including. I didn’t have favors because I had limited time and energy and I realized I didn’t care.

        We DID do personalized boxes of sparklers because when we left we had people wave sparklers instead of throw rice. If people wanted to keep that as a favor, I guess that might count.

      9. Elizabeth West*

        OLD BAAAAY

        Love that stuff. There was a post recently on Buzzfeed of all these different things you could put it on. I tried it on avocado toast and it was very good.

      10. Sasha Fierce*

        I love local and usable. We are in the Phoenix area, so we gave out lip balm and suntan lotion (sample size) that is locally made. It was affordable (we just plopped a ribbon with our names and date in the bag), and easy to put together. Plus, my dad freaking LOVES that lip balm (me too), and we were both happy to keep the left-behinds. My sister gave out little jars of M&Ms and those were popular!

    12. Ask a Manager* Post author

      No one cares. It’s extra work for you, and one more thing to stress about dealing with on the day of. Skip it, and just feed people well.

      That said, we did fancy macaroons in fancy boxes, but we delegated the entire responsibility to a friend or otherwise it would not have happened at all.

    13. Celeste*

      I would only do them if there is something you really want to incorporate into the event. I definitely agree that if you do something, it should be consumable. I’ve seen chocolates and coffee packs. I’ve seen sooo many left-behind items, like crossword puzzle books and figurines.

      Otherwise, I’d use the money elsewhere.

    14. Celeste*

      Also, I don’t expect them and wouldn’t miss one. I usually bring only a small purse to these things and it can’t hold much extra.

    15. Anne-Cara*

      We did donation favors instead of an edible/physical favor! Very little effort, and definitely worth it (for me, anyway, but I didn’t hear any guests complaining).

      1. the_scientist*

        I went to a wedding that did donations for favours- they donated to a local charity that provides social support and activities for kids with autism and put a little card at each place explaining the donation. I thought it was a nice gesture, and more useful/practical than mints/bubbles/whatever.

      2. ANB*

        This is exactly what we did. We showed a short video during the reception so people knew what the organization was about. We also printed up thank you cards for each place setting. I didn’t receive feedback either way on whether they liked the idea.

    16. Jubilance*

      I don’t think it’s necessary, but if you do it, definitely do something consumable and cheap for you. I wouldn’t do anything time consuming or that was costly.

      Since I’m getting married on Pi Day, we’re going with little mini-pies as the favors. Cute, fits the theme and who can resist a little mini-pie?

      3. Katie the Fed*

        Oooh fun! We’re having pie instead of wedding cake actually. A big selection of pies. Pies > cake.

        1. Jubilance*

          My fiance and I both want cake, hence why the favors are the pies. He’s currently lobbying for a groom’s cake that is a 3-D replica of Wayne Mansion cause he’s a big Batman fan.

          *sigh*Hence our nerd wedding…LOL

          1. fposte*

            Oh, now I want him to have that cake too, just to see it.

            Anybody familiar with Edible Book Festivals? People basically make literary themed foodstuffs, often cakes, and you get some amazing puns and also some extraordinary designs. (I remember a gorgeous chocolate gothic house with cutouts of Betty Grable on it–it was the House of the Seven Grables.)

          2. A Teacher*

            my sister’s best friend did a ghostbuster groom cake…it was pretty spectacular.

          3. Kelly O*

            Do you need a new best friend? Because between Pi, pie, Batman, and nerds, you are one hobbit, a direwolf, and Neil deGrasse Tyson away from me moving in next door.

    17. Elkay*

      We did two chocolates in a box with our names and the date on. The company we bought them from did everything we just gave them to the venue to put on the table.

    18. Anonie*

      A candy bar is always fun. You don’t have to put anything on every table. Just set up a candy bar with little baggies and let the guests pick there favorites. I would get little bags so people can’t over do it (even though there is always those that do!) but it can be fun. It can be expensive depending on the candy and how much but you could set a budget and stick to it. Some people do candies from back in the day and other’s do candy in the color of the wedding.

      1. Mallory*

        I was at one wedding where they had a make-your-own-favor table, and it was a lot of fun (and probably pretty cheap to pull off, too). They just had pretty glass bowls filled with all different kinds of candies (M & M’s, Jelly Bellies, Twizzlers, mini-pretzels, Hershey’s miniatures, etc.) and little plastic baggies with twist-ties for guests to fill up and take home.

      2. Turanga Leela*

        Or a cookie bar, Pittsburgh-style. (Although traditionally the guests in Pittsburgh bring the cookies.)

        All of these are great ideas so long as the couple is enthusiastic about it. I wouldn’t do any of this out of a sense of obligation.

    19. Bryan*

      I think it’s really just up to you if you want to do them. I agree something consumable. I’m debating using little bottles of flavored olive oil from a local shop. That being said it’s a wedding so people are going to be divisive and very opinionated about whatever you do.

    20. duschamp*

      If you do favors, I would absolutely go with consumables.
      As for whether or not to do it – if you don’t do it, only the etiquette fascists will care. If you just go with something standard (sugared almonds, etc.), people won’t be upset but probably won’t remember it either. If you can/want to, I would try to pick something both consumable and personal to one or both of you. At my wedding (my family is from Ohio, and my husband’s is from Yorkshire) we had buckeyes as the favors and pork pies along with the champagne at the reception. We still get compliments for both of those. Likewise, at a friend’s US/UK wedding which was on the 4th of July, they had an evening buffet of hot dogs.
      While I’ve strayed away from the favors question, I think the most important thing is, no matter what you do, to make it personal to you guys.

      1. fposte*

        I’m guessing you mean candy buckeyes, not the absolutely inedible buckeye buckeyes. (My family roasted them experimentally once, because in my region they’re called horse chestnuts and my father thought you might be able to eat them like other chestnuts. You can’t.)

        1. duschamp*

          Oh yeah, defiantly the candy ones. They were a beast to make ’cause at the time peanut butter was really hard to get hold of in the UK (I actually had my sister bring jars of it in her checked luggage).
          Was your father OK? I have no idea if this is true or not, but in Ohio buckeyes (the nut) have a reputation as being poisonous.

          1. fposte*

            Father, hell–he fed them to us! He was actually a very careful parent but had a certain experimental zeal that must have overridden that.

            They tasted so horribly bitter that none of us ingested enough to hurt us even if they are poisonous. Looking it up, I can see that they do contain a substance that’s poisonous if eaten raw. Ours weren’t raw but were too revolting to eat, so I don’t think we were in much danger.

    21. Turanga Leela*

      No one will care if you don’t. I certainly wouldn’t put a lot of money or time into it. Folding little gift boxes is not a good use of your time.

      If you want to do something but don’t want to put in the effort, make a charitable donation. Donate a chunk of money, then put a note in your programs or a small sign at the reception that says something like, “In lieu of favors, Katie and Katie’s spouse have made a donation to Heifer International.” Everyone will be happy.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Oh, funny story on Heifer. My parents jokingly paid his parents a dowry of a Heifer International donation of a goat. :)

    22. KTM*

      I always enjoy the favors we get at weddings (especially when it is something local/personal to the couple) but I have never cared if we didn’t get anything if you want to opt out. For our wedding our ‘escort cards’ were pictures of each of our guests with magnets on the back so they doubled as take-home gifts (it’s been really fun after the fact to see them on our friend’s fridges!)

    23. Ash (the other one!)*

      We did cake pops — figuring people who may have been drinking would appreciate some food on their way out.

    24. Brett*

      We did kazoos. It made for a noisy reception, but people really liked them and did actually keep them for quite a long time.

    25. Jennifer*

      I think nay. At most weddings, I don’t take them. I’m sure you’ve got lots of other things to spend time and money on. Best wishes!!

    26. Algae*

      Nay – I feel like it’s an idea whose time has passed. (Besides, what are we going to do with two giant diamond-shaped paperweights?)

    27. JC*

      I didn’t do them at my wedding a few years ago, and never thought twice. If you want to, I definitely vote for consumables. I hate getting stuff to take home from weddings, especially stuff with another couple’s name on it. But everyone loves food.

      I went to a wedding recently where they wanted to do the trendy “candy bar” thing, and turned it into make-your-own-bag-of-candy favors. Was into it.

    28. LV*

      My cousin had little jars of organic honey as her wedding favours. I thought it was cute, but a lot of people didn’t take their jar with them and I ended up with about 2 dozen. It worked in my favour, but from the couple’s perspective it was a bit of a waste of time/money/effort since so few guests seemed interested.

    29. Addiez*

      Not to advertise another blog – but have you seen A Practical Wedding? They address stuff like this all the time :)

        1. chewbecca*

          Those two are the only sites I’m looking at for sundry wedding planning advice. I’ve gotten a lot out of them! And I’ve never once felt judged, so I stay in my happy little wedding planning bubble and ignore anything else.

    30. Kelly L.*

      I don’t think they’re necessary, and I agree–something consumable. It can be an extra logistical issue to take a souvenir item along as you leave, especially if it’s breakable and you have a long trip back home.

    31. Gilby*

      We went to a wedding there they gave out can koozies with the bride and groom wedding date and name. Cute idea and different idea.

      Not everyone uses them but still it is a competely functional party favor.

    32. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I think wedding favors are silly. Who wants a pint glass with someone else’s wedding date on it? And sure, cookies are tasty, but having just fed your guests (presumably) a dinner and dessert, that hardly seems necessary.

      My husband felt strongly that not having wedding favors was tacky, so we did it. But my preference would have been to skip it. We made little bags with food from the various places we’ve lived (Nut Goodies, Tasty-Kakes, moon pies, etc.).

      1. Gilby*

        I agree with most of the stuff that is engraved with the couple and wedding date is silly.

        I saw the logic with the can koozies as the whole family and friends all camp, fish, hunt and all that so really they’d come in handy. Who cares if they got dirty or torn?

        But I agree for the most part. I’d take a little bag of M& M’s over just another knick-knack.

    34. Kelly O*

      We did little take-out boxes with a cupcake and goodies from the baker in them, and people seemed to really like it.

      Our wedding was small enough that I ordered extra boxes, and people could use them for proper take-out from our reception if they wanted (and we had so much food, it saved us from dealing with a huge mess of stuff.)

      Oh, and totally agree with you about the wedding boards. If/when you decide to procreate, stay away from the pregnancy/baby boards. I seriously wonder how some people manage to actually get a baby fed sometimes… it’s a miracle so many survive to adulthood although it does explain a lot.

    35. Clinical Data Coordinator*

      We did wedding favors, but it was partly because at the time it sounded like fun (shrug).

      One thing that some friends of ours did was make a donation to a charity of their choice in lieu of favors. Then they printed out a little sign that they placed on each table letting people know (like ‘In lieu of favors, a donation has been made on behalf of all the wedding guests to _____.’)

      1. Steph*

        Whoops — it has been awhile since I posted I guess. :)

        Anyways, what we did for favors was use some paper that wildflower seeds in it (like these: http://www.botanicalpaperworks.com/), made boxes (stamped them with our name / date), and filled the boxes with some candy. It seemed like a happy compromise between something really tacky that nobody except our moms would want to keep and just candy. :)

    36. Eden*

      I just don’t understand wedding favors. I have been to many, many weddings in my time, and aside from the personalized box of matches, have never been enthused about/used any favor. Does anyone really care about these? I really feel like they are something that could be phased out. Spend those extra bucks serving better food, is my feeling.

    37. cuppa*

      I felt an irrational need to give out favors, for whatever reason, but I also hate all of the stupid trinkets and don’t care if there is a favor when I attend weddings.
      We gave out our favorite cookies from a local bakery. It was extremely popular and very reasonable price-wise. Some people ate theirs before dinner (they were sitting at the place settings). And, I did not complain one bit about getting the extras/ones that were left behind.

    39. EmmBee*

      I say skip. We made two donations in lieu of favors. Seriously, except for mothers, everyone throws out favors — if not immediately, the next time they do spring cleaning or whatever.

    40. Kay*

      For my wedding last year, I did old school stick candy (you know, like the ones in Cracker barrel and shows like Little House on the Prairie). I found a company to order from, ordered boxes of only the flavors I liked (because I assumed there would be leftovers) and wrapped about 5 sticks together with ribbon and a little note that said something like “Thanks for ‘sticking’ around” because I’m punny like that.

      Also, join the Offbeat Bride Tribe (even if you don’t consider yourself “offbeat”) They are the nicest most helpful wedding planning community I found and it doesn’t matter what you’re planning or why you’re doing it that way, they are SUPER supportive

    41. 2 Cents*

      For my wedding, we didn’t have individual favors. I set out short vases filled with Hershey’s kisses at each table for people to snack on if they felt like it. I didn’t hear from anyone that they missed a favor. At weddings I’ve been to, consumable favors are my favorite, but I don’t miss them when they’re not there. (Anything that’s a “gift” or “thing” I have to schlep home either ends up forgotten at my table or thrown out about 6 months later.)

    42. Hlyssande*

      My friend had her wedding in December, so they gave some tiny traditional Norwegian ornaments that were made from straw (or something similar). Incidentally, they were also very cheap. And cute. I still have mine.

    43. Unmitigated Gal*

      We made candles for everyone, by hand. They were lovely. It was a lot of work! I believe they were appreciated, but who really knows??

    44. Minnow*

      At my wedding we took the money we would have spent on favours and made a donation to a charity that was meaningful to us. They gave us little cards we could put on the table saying that a donation had been made in our guests’ honour. It went over really well and it was nice to be able to give back a little bit.

    45. kbeers0su*

      We had a semi-destination wedding because we wanted to get married where we live (Maine) but most of our family is in the midwest. We opted to not do favors for the reasons many others posted (get left behind, people don’t always want something personalized with another couple’s wedding date/names, cost) we opted to do welcome packages for the guests who traveled from out of state. We included water, snacks, small jars of blueberry jam, a guide to the local area, some info about Maine, and some Maine postcards. We made one box for each room of guests, and the cost was less than it would have been for favors.

      As someone else mentioned, we also had potted plants as centerpieces and we didn’t want or need 17 Hercura plants. So we sent them home with guests, which ended up being most of the in-state folks. So in the end most people got something, just not a favor per se.

    46. Robin*

      I did some “I went to Joffrey and Margaery’s wedding and all I got was this lousy T-shirt” t-shirts. My MIL was a little scandalized, but they were a big hit.

      1. Robin*

        Obviously, substitute my and my husband’s names there, just keeping it generic.

      2. cuppa*

        I’m halfway debating getting married again just so I can steal this idea. :)

    47. junipergreen*

      If you have lots of out-of-towners, maybe consider putting out “care package” type gift bags at the end of the night, or handing them out to the hotel to give to people at check-in. Having a bag of pretzels/chips/animal crackers, a bottle of water, and some candy is a nice post-wedding snack when people get to their room tuckered out from dancing and drinking. We did this with simple paper bags. We heard from some of the folks who were too hungover to show up to breakfast the next day that the snacks were very welcome ;)
      (best part – with shelf stable snacks you can do this weeks in advance, and it’s relatively quick and cheap with a cost co run and a friend to help you out)

    48. Mephyle*

      A mother-of-the-bride here: My daughter and son-in-law (both mathematicians) got wire puzzles – the kind where you have to try to disengage two complex closed loops – in their theme colours for the favours. There were about 5 different designs, so some people had the same ones as people seated near them, some had different. They turned out to be a great hit, because after the meal, people were playing with them trying to solve them, and comparing them with each other.

    49. Ruffingit*

      I had a magnet with a cute saying that went with the theme of the wedding. I’m no longer married to that guy but people still have the magnet on their fridges. :) That said I don’t think they’re necessary so no big thing if you don’t do it.

    50. Sandy*

      I don’t think anyone will notice if you don’t have them. I always forget that guests get favors at weddings and am always surprised to see them at the place settings. But if you want to get wedding favors, the last wedding I went too had glass coasters with LOVE engraved in them and they were placed in sheer little bags (2 coasters per guest in one bag). I thought those were really nice since they were both pretty and could actually be used and not just set on a shelf for decoration to collect dust.

      I don’t think favors are necessary though, you are already feeding the guests at the reception.

    51. samaD*

      go with your preference!

      we had sugar almonds and little cones of local lavender to toss, a friend had fridge magnets with local scenes and the centrepiece if you wanted it, someone else was a recent ecology grad and gave saplings of a local tree.

      if you want, something small and local and representative of you – I think I read downthread that you were thinking of a local spice mix, which sounds perfect….but only if you want to! :)

  5. AndersonDarling*

    Yes, I was stalking the thread so I could get my question in early. :)

    I wanted to ask the group about something that has been annoying me.

    We have had some applicants come to their interviews, check in with the receptionist, sit down, open their laptops, and then ask for the WiFi password.

    I guess this isn’t a big deal at other organizations, but because of the nature of our business, we have a super secure network. Guest passwords have to be custom built for the individual by a member of IT.

    If the applicant was interviewing for a marketing position, they could need access to pull up their portfolio. But the receptionist doesn’t know who is coming in for what, and she doesn’t want to be rude and quiz the applicant on why they need access. If she can find an available IT member to set it up quickly, all the applicant does is check their email/play games for 5 minutes before their interview. In the end, the applicants who are asking are interviewing for entry level positions or internships.

    I feel like this makes the applicant seem a bit immature… they are confusing the office lobby with a Starbucks. But maybe they are thinking that it makes them look professional because they are “important” and have to check their email every chance they get.

    Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I’m with you, it feels like a presumptuous and unnecessary request to me. What can they do in the short amount of time before an interview that they can’t do with a cellular data network on a phone?

      As a candidate, I would assume that any wifi network is for the use of employees and clients, and would not ask to use it myself.

    2. Stephanie*

      That’s odd. OldJob was the same way with wifi (you needed a special password from IT), so I’ve just assumed no wifi will be available. Plus, who wants to drag a laptop to an interview? I barely want to carry my purse.

    3. BCW*

      What is your issue? That they are asking for your password or what they are doing once they get it? I mean, if someone is waiting, they could just as easily do the same thing on their phone. Would you judge them as immature for that? If its a wi-fi thing, maybe just have a blanked policy to not give it out, and make sure that when marketing people are coming in, they know that they need to have things on a USB drive or something because they won’t be able to use the internet.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I think it is the asking for the WiFi that annoys me. But it may be because everywhere I’ve worked we have had secure networks without guest access. I would think that when someone tries to access the WiFi and sees it is locked, they should let it go unless it is for something important.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If I found an office door that was locked, I would not ask for a key. You just don’t do that.

          Maybe they are assuming there are different levels of access and you would be telling them a password for low level access?

        2. Vicki*

          Not all companies are like this.
          At my last interview, I was early, so I sat in my car, pulled out the iPad, and connected to the open guest network for 15 minutes.

        3. Ruffingit*

          I usually let it go if I see it’s locked, but I also know some places will give you the password if you ask. I wouldn’t judge someone for this personally. We’re such a wi-fi world now that this just doesn’t faze me. I don’t think they’re trying to look important. If it bothers you then put a sign up saying WiFi is not available to guests and be done with it. I wouldn’t read much into this.

        4. The Other Dawn*

          I’m with you, Anderson. I would be put off if an applicant asked for WiFi access. There just isn’t a need for it if they’re arriving within a few minutes of their interview time. If they need it in order to pull up a portfolio, I think they should have had the forethought to put it on a USB drive or something.

          And since it takes at least one person’s time to set up an individual password, I would just tell people that it’s company policy to not allow visitors to connect to the company’s WiFi.

      2. anonness*

        OP posted this: “Guest passwords have to be custom built for the individual by a member of IT.”

        So it’s a security thing, and the interviewers are wasting the office’s IT time to setup something that they won’t even use for that long.

    4. OriginalYup*

      It seems like the simplest thing to do is empower the receptionist to say to everyone, “I’m sorry, our network is restricted to employees only so we don’t give out the password to visitors. Thanks for understanding.” Any reasonable person should understand the rationale. For the marketing candidates, presumably they’ll get any needed help to access the network for their portfolio it once they actually begin the interview (as opposed to when they’re sitting in the waiting room).

      3. Kelly O*

        Or perhaps have what they need physically on the device?

        I mean, not a marketing person, but it seems logical to not make assumptions about available wi-fi, and have as much actually on your device as possible to be prepared for that. (Because realistically sometimes the wi-fi goes down, or there are so many people on it things run slowly, or any number of other things that could make dependence on wi-fi an unreasonable assumption.)

    5. fposte*

      Are they asking if you have a guest password or just asking how to get on the wifi? To me those are somewhat different.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        In these cases, they have tried to access the wifi then were asked for a password. I only know about this because in one instance the applicant was really persistent and wanted a guest password. That was when the receptionist called me to find someone to help.
        In the end, the applicant was coming in for an internship and didn’t have a reason to access the wifi. But 3 people had to jump to help them.
        Part of the issue is that we haven’t thought about how to handle these situations.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, that applicant sounds obnoxious. And I think a general policy of “No, we have no guest wifi” is fine.

          I’m thinking more of what my disapproval level would be–somebody asking “Does your office offer guest wifi?” doesn’t bug me, but somebody acting as if they’re entitled to its use is another matter.

        2. Observer*

          Now, that’s different. If the receptionist told the person that there is no guest password, and he kept pushing it, that IS absolutely out of line. And, if it were me, it would be a huge mark against hiring that intern. It’s not the initial request that’s a problem. It’s the refusal to take no for an answer.

        3. Ruffingit*

          3 people didn’t have to jump to help the person. They could have just said “I’m sorry, we don’t give out the password.” Unless a gun is being held to the head of those in control of the network, there is no “have to” help. Also, if someone is persistent after being told no, that is valuable information about that person in terms of whether you want them on your team or not.

          Bottom line is you’re not obligated to give out the password and there’s no reason for the receptionist to do so. Put up a sign in the waiting area that says you don’t give it out and if someone asks for it, the receptionist can repeat that. I don’t know why she’s running around trying to get someone to set it up and why the IT people are doing this. It’s a waste of their time. If you don’t want random people accessing your network, don’t let them.

      2. Jamie*

        Are they asking if you have a guest password or just asking how to get on the wifi? To me those are somewhat different.

        This exactly. If you don’t have a guest connection just tell them that, but I would think very differently about the applicant – unless your IT named the restricted segment Company Guest or something similar to lead them to believe you had one available.

    6. Jubilance*

      Why not just have a blanket “there’s no guest Wifi available” and leave it at that? As a jobseeker it wouldn’t even occur to me to ask for the Wifi password for a private company, I would assume it was employees only.

    7. Lily in NYC*

      I don’t see the problem – mainly because most offices DO have a wifi password for visitors to use.

    8. Colette*

      I’m surprised the receptionist/IT is willing to set it up at all – I’d say no.

      Maybe you should let them know when they set up the interview that they won’t have access to the network so that they can figure out how to provide access to their portfolio without it.

    9. Bryan*

      I think it’s completely ridiculous if they are asking for the password to occupy their time for 5 minutes before an interview. I second originalyups, “I’m sorry, our network is restricted to employees only so we don’t give out the password to visitors. Thanks for understanding.” If someone genuinely needs it for their interview then make special arrangements. I’d also be weary interviewing and having a crucial portfolio online only. What if the internet is down?

    10. C Average*

      I’ll bet a lot of these folks are just used to being online all the time, and it wouldn’t occur to them that wifi ISN’T available in a semi-public place. Just tell them, “No, we don’t have public wifi here.” I’m guessing they’re just asking because they assume the answer is yes, but I doubt a “no” would be any big thing.

      1. Chriama*

        I totally agree. Especially if you’re in a huge office tower, they might think there’s public wi-fi access. Just tell them you’re not set up for guest wi-fi and leave them to play candy crush saga on their phones.

    11. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I understand what you’re saying — if a company doesn’t have a public network, some people might assume that they do not provide guest access. However, my company is in an office building in a downtown area, and because of that (and possibly because we have a competitor right across the street), we have a guest network that requires a password.

      I don’t think it’s unprofessional to ask, but I would probably just use my cellular data myself, or if I asked, I would say “Excuse me, do you allow guest access to the TeapotsGuest wifi network?”, instead of just demanding the password. And if they told me that IT would have to assist me, I’d be mortified and tell them to please not bother themselves with it.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I would not ask until I got into the interview, if I needed it for my portfolio, etc. And I would have an offline backup, in case it was down or they didn’t have it. There’s just no way I would ask simply to check email before an interview–that’s what my phone is for.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Oh, I know, I think it’s a little odd, and you should be prepared for every contingency when going to an interview. But my point was that the asking itself, if done politely and considerately, while it seems odd and unnecessary to me, wouldn’t bother me by itself.

    12. Apollo Warbucks*

      Maybe you could set up a less secure guest net and change the password weekly that what my firm has set up and it works well.

    13. Observer*

      In most places either there is a “guest” wifi password or not. That’s what we have. If someone asks for wifi, that’s what we give them, but all it can access is our internet, nothing on the network.

      If that’s not secure enough for you, then it’s perfectly appropriate to have the receptionist say something like “We don’t have a guest password. Is there a specific reason you need access?” At that point, it’s on the person asking to explain what they need. Only someone that has a reason related to their appointment gets a password.

      I don’t think it’s immature of the people to ask. They have no way to know that it’s going to cause extra work for people. And, it’s common enough now, that it makes sense to ask.

      Now, if the receptionist says “Sorry, we can’t do that” and the person doesn’t react well, that IS immature – and it tells you a lot about the person.

    14. Elkay*

      I think unless it says “Guest Network” you should figure it’s not for visitors.

    15. kas*

      I wouldn’t have the nerve to ask. I’d rather sit there bored out of my mind than ask for the password and sit on my phone/laptop.

    16. Daisy*

      If it was a marketing interviewee who might need access to the internet for the interview, I think it should be up to the HM or HR to provide it to the applicant prior to coming in.
      Otherwise, I’d say no guest access. Can the receptionist be provided a list of interviewees so that s/he knows they do not require a PW?
      And I find it odd that someone can’t sit 5 minutes without going online. I mean, I find it hard not to when I’m waiting but I resist when I’m waiting for an interview.

    17. Eden*

      It seems unprepared to go into an interview or presentation assuming internet access. Why do these folks not have a copy of whatever it is saved locally on their laptop?

    18. JaneJ*

      I would judge them. I would think they’re fussy or needy or unprepared. I’m not saying I wouldn’t hire them because of it, but if there were other clues in the interview to support this theory, it would color my opinion.

      People who do this need to have a better “sense of occasion.” Realize you’re not at Starbucks, like the OP said. If you have a genuine need for use of the WiFi, explain that when you make your request – your ultra-polite request.

  6. TK*

    Getting this in early: How do I go about applying for a position (i.e., how do I discuss it in my cover letter, or do I at all?) that is the junior half of a 2-person department, when I just was interviewed for the more senior position 3 months ago?

    Context: I’m an archivist. The only university in my hometown, which I’d very much like to move back to, has a 2-person archives department at its library. Both are professional positions (i.e., require an MLS or equivalent) and the job descriptions/qualifications listed in the postings overlap substantially, but one is senior to the other. I applied for and was phone interviewed for the more senior position in February. I knew it was a stretch for my level of experience but the qualifications they listed were less than I expected and I’m highly motivated to relocate, so I applied anyway and got a phone interview. They ended up hiring the hiring/promoting the junior person in the department to this position. This being a public university, maybe this was the plan all along and doing other interviews was just a perfunctory legal requirement, but whatever. I knew it was a possibility going in. I thought my interview went well, though.

    Now, unsurprisingly, they’ve posted the more junior position. I don’t think it’s at all a stretch for someone with my experience, and I’d certainly be interested in it even if I hadn’t applied for the other job. I assume but don’t know that some of the same people will be involved in the hiring, though of course the person hired for the other position (direct supervisor for this job) will probably be in charge. Unlike the other position, this is technically a staff rather than a faculty position (most notable difference on the application end is that it requires just a resume rather than a full CV). So I assume the hiring process will be less complex. Regardless, I have to somehow mention that I just applied for the other position in my cover letter, don’t I? How do I do this so that I show I’m just as interested in this job as I was the other, and don’t have any problem working under someone whose job I just applied for? Any advice about this situation is appreciated.

    1. GigglyPuff*

      Uh, not sure if this will help since I’ve only been through one round of applying for professional jobs once, but I know for a couple of large organizations/govt. positions, I have applied to the more professional one and then the staff level one. I never referenced it in the cover letter though, I just made sure to make them each different.

      I don’t think it would be that much of a big deal, but that’s just my thought on it.

    2. Chriama*

      Did you keep in touch with your interviewers? I’m kind of surprised that they didn’t reach out to you when they posted the new position if you already interviewed with them.

      If you’re comfortable with the idea, I’d reach out to whoever you did the phone interview with and mention that you know the senior position was a stretch but you see they’ve posted a junior position and you’re interested in applying and are wondering if they think you’re a better fit for this one.

      Whether or not they reply, your cover letter should mention that you applied before and make sure to include what you learned about the organization during your phone interview that makes you want to work for them.

      1. TK*

        These are good thoughts. Though I may be wrong, my sense is that sort of “reaching out” to people informally only happens in academia and academia-allied fields when you’re a) a Really Top Person or b) you have an actual networking relationship with someone beyond just having interviewed with them, neither of which is the case with me.

        I’m pretty sure that if I emailed the chair of the search committee from the previous position, I’d get some generic reply like,”Well, we were impressed with your qualifications/interview and you’re certainly welcome to apply for this position.” I hadn’t thought about specifically mentioning what I learned from interviewing in the cover letter; that’s a very good idea.

        1. fposte*

          I think it’s fine to mention in your cover letter how impressed you were with the institution/library in your prior contact–I don’t think you have to go into the position level thing in the application stage. I think I’m with you as far as reaching out–I don’t think it really gets you anything in this case, and I don’t think we’d do it from the search side unless it was somebody who was already in our circle, so the absence of their contact doesn’t say anything bad about your candidacy.

          However, I will tell you that I’ve had unsuccessful applicants in searches I would be absolutely *delighted* to see reapply for another position, and you could well be in that category.

      2. Persephone Mulberry*

        Agreed with this. Also, in your cover letter, you could phrase it as, “the opportunity to interview for the XYZ position a few months ago reaffirmed my desire to join Supercool University’s Whatever Department.”

        1. Kay*

          Now I wish my degree was from Supercool University!

          Definitely mention in your cover letter something to the effect of: “I recently applied and was interviewed for XYZ position in your archives department and after seeing this ABC position, I believe it may be a better fit for my skills” (Then you can mention any other positive interactions/perceptions you had).

          Also, since the positions do sound like the overlap quite significantly, I don’t think it will be a big leap that you’re applying for both or odd in any way.

            1. TK*

              I’m almost certain they’re going to A LOT of the same applicants as for the other position. Despite one being more senior to the other, both were listed as essentially entry-level: no professional work experience required beyond a degree. Those jobs are very hard to come by in archives, so I’m sure hordes of the same folks have applied for both.

              So no, it won’t be odd that I’m applying, but most of those applicants didn’t make it to a phone interview like I did, which is why it’s trickier for me to discuss it. But you all’s advice is great.

    3. Scarlet*

      A fellow archivist! Though I have not completely been in your position, the situation dealt with a part-time library organization that I took in addition to an archives assistant job, I know how insular the archives profession can be.

      Typically I don’t mention that I interviewed for a different level position, but I can see why one would. However, those situations have been when I knew the committee would be completely different due to new hires. In this case, it is plausible that most of the committee will be the same. Mention it once and move on. Highlight your experience according to what they are looking for in the new position and write your materials like you would if you hadn’t applied for the other position. If this university if like everywhere university I have applied for, staff positions tend to be much more heavily screened through their application system. Think of the resume as the cliff notes (that still show how you meet the requirements) of your application for those who view it if it makes it past the designated screeners.

      Good luck!

  7. Betsy*

    Today, I’m wearing dark denim jeans and a shirt that’s a step up from a T-shirt but a step down from a blouse, in honor of my company’s casual dress Friday.

    How do people feel about casual Fridays? I’ve heard some people who really like them, some people who hate them, some people who will take advantage of them but feel they’re stupid, and the whole gamut in between. Is casual dress Friday a real perk? Is it good for businesses? Bad for businesses? Discuss.

    1. LBK*

      Personally, I think they’re one of the best perks because they cost the business absolutely nothing and (generally) improve morale. Everyone wins. If for some reason you don’t like them, no one’s stopping you from still wearing a suit!

    2. Who are you?*

      I love casual Friday. I honestly believe how I dress should have no bearing on how I function in the workplace. I don’t think that a suit makes me any more capable to do my job than a pair of jeans and a cute top would. I’m lucky that my company is fairly relaxed and allows jeans everyday there isn’t a sales meeting going on.

    3. AdminAnon*

      I work in the national office of a non-profit, but we don’t get visitors very often so our version of business-casual is more casual than business. We do have “casual Fridays,” though, which basically end up with everyone in jeans and a t-shirt (usually from our events or with our logo, but not always) or a sweatshirt (often a college or sports team, but again, not always). I personally love casual Friday, but that’s mostly because I’m a fairly recent grad and my work wardrobe is limited, whereas I own at least 8 pairs of jeans. So it just makes Fridays a little easier in terms of dressing myself :)

      1. Ali*

        I work from home so every day is casual Friday. :) My boss has shown up for conference calls in wife beaters and baseball caps before. (Yeah we are pretty laid-back where I work…)

        I do appreciate it in offices though since I don’t particularly love dressing up or wearing high heels. I was not good about it when I first got out of school and had a summer job in school, as I thought flip-flops were appropriate for casual Fridays. Whoops!

        1. AdminAnon*

          I want your job! Actually, no, I really like my job. But working from home would be amazing.

          1. Ali*

            Haha it is not as fun as it seems trust me. I am job searching and would love to go back to an office again. It was nice for a while but it gets lonely pretty fast, not to mention I’m experiencing job burnout as a result of my career choice.

          1. Ali*

            My boss wanted to do a video meeting with me once, but he was working from home (which is fine; I work remotely as well and even the office employees have the option to work from home if they choose) and apparently it didn’t occur to him that he might want to put a shirt on before he goes on a call with one of his only female employees.

            I think he got the hint that I was giving him a WTF look b/c he remembered his shirt for the next meeting.

              1. Ali*

                It was terrible! He’s younger than me so it’s not like he was horribly out of shape or anything like that. But it was still beyond weird…

    4. Katie the Fed*

      I like them, because I don’t like to be bothered with dry cleaning and I like to be comfortable (I’m also a bigger girl so business clothes tend to be less flattering/comfortable).
      But yes, people ALWAYS take them too far. Always.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      I for one am SO GLAD that I work in an industry where casual everyday is normal, unless the clients are in, and even then it’s mostly business casual.

      There are a few companies in my field who prefer that you wear a more standard corporate look every day, and honestly I’d have to be pretty unhappy where I’m at in order to take a job at one of those places, because I would really hate having to rework my entire wardrobe and relegate all my jeans and T-shirts to weekends.

      (Drives my husband crazy…he doesn’t have to wear a full suit to work, but he does have to wear suit pants and a dress shirt, and he loves to say of my work clothes “I wouldn’t dress like that to paint the house!” :P)

    6. Jen RO*

      For me, a Casual Friday would indicate that I don’t want to work in that company. I want Casual Every Day! (I’m wearing flats, slacks – or something? the terminology is beyond me -, a blouse and a cardigan and I’m feeling all dressed up!)

      1. Betsy*

        This is kind of my sentiment on it, too: if the business dress isn’t important to the company, then it shouldn’t be required other days. If it is important, then it should be important on Fridays, too.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      I generally love my casual Fridays… but one of our upper VPs hates them and will nit-pik about what people are wearing. Those pants are too short, that shirt is untucked, those shoes too high… it sucks the fun out of it.

      1. AdminAnon*

        Oh my gosh, my roommate’s office is insane. They have a very strict dress code (which was just recently implemented–she has been there for 3+ years). It’s worse than high school. They dictate shoe styles/heel height, skirt length, material. It’s insane. And no one in their office is customer-facing, either. It’s a home health agency and their office provides back-end support for the service providers. I couldn’t work there. Of course, they also have very strict rules about everything else–cell phones, strictly scheduled lunch breaks, etc. They mainly hire new grads and have had problems in the past. My constant diatribe is that if you treat your employees like children, they will act like children. But that’s just me.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          What kind of office is it? My guess is law firm or management consulting. My sister was offered a $$$$$ consulting job but turned it down because they said you even had to wear panty hose on the subway during your commute because you were a representative of the company. It was Arthur Andersen (consulting company that was a casualty of the Enron scandal, IIRC).

    8. Rebecca*

      Our office is casual all the time, like jeans, even tee shirts, etc. We’re not allowed to wear tank tops, jeans with holes in them, that type of thing. We rarely get visitors, and when we do, we know ahead of time and everyone dresses up. No one can see me, and when I’m communicating remotely with people in other states or even other countries, it really doesn’t matter if I’m wearing jeans or dress pants. It’s the quality of the work that matters most.

      I like it because I’m comfortable, my clothes are low maintenance, and actually, most of my clothing can be purchased at Goodwill at very low cost.

      If we had visitors or regular people in and out of the office, totally different story.

    9. Stephanie*

      Both jobs have had completely casual dress codes, but both did have very little client interaction. I think it’s a good morale booster (and money saver for employees). However, people always took it too far. I had a coworker who’d wear an entire sweatsuit to the office (like the generic one you’d find a Walmart).

    10. C Average*

      I come to this discussion as an outsider. I’ve spent my entire professional career in a very, very casual workplace. Our everyday workplace dress is so casual that if we were to institute casual Friday, we’d pretty much have to show up in our bathrobes.

      (By the way, this isn’t to say we’re slobs! There’s a significant contingent of really fashion-forward people here who take pride in dressing well. We’re just not formal.)

      It’s wonderful to be able to wear things that are comfortable and reflective of my personal style. I’d have a hard time working in an environment where it was a privilege to get to dress like myself one day of the week! I’m glad more businesses are moving in the direction of embracing casual dress, even if it’s in the context of a perk.

      1. ali*

        our support team has taken “casual Friday” and turned it into “pajama Friday”. They are pretty much the only people in the company who have to work on site on Fridays, the rest of us work from home. Every other day is super causal, most people in jeans. Unless we know in advance that customers are coming in, but that’s maybe twice a year.

        My whole career has been this way too. I wouldn’t even know where to begin if I couldn’t wear jeans to work.

        1. Ali*

          My old job had no formal dress code and we had a pajama day once! This was a call center and we were going to have client visitors at the end of the week, so our managers were giving us a break before we had to dress up for clients. (That was the only time business casual was required.)

          It was one of the only things I liked about that job too.

    11. Annie O*

      I’m not a huge fan. I’d prefer an all-week policy that allowed for jeans if the overall look was business casual. In other words, take a business casual outfit, replace the trousers with dark jeans, and change nothing else.

      Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of folks think casual Friday means casual-casual. I’ve seen yoga pants, jeans only suitable for yard work, grimy sneakers, etc. It just looks sooo unprofessional.

      1. Judy*

        Our casual Fridays are what you list, jeans with shirts and shoes that fit our “rest of week” outfits. We do have some days that are called “free dress” which allows for sneakers and t-shirts, but they’re usually for a reason, like the day before Independence Day, or NCAA finals or last game of world cup, and they encourage a theme, “red white and blue” or colors of the teams in the game.

    12. Lily in NYC*

      I probably should have put this in last week’s “work sins” thread. We don’t have casual Fridays even though we are business casual in general. When my new boss started, I told him we had casual Fridays (I could have come to work in a bathrobe and he wouldn’t have noticed). People in my dept. started wearing jeans on Friday. It started spreading to other depts. All of the old bosses left (lots of turnover here) and now the entire 400-person office thinks we have casual Fridays, including the president’s office. Lily for the Win!

    13. Algae*

      I love them. We’ve just finally started Casual Fridays around here and it’s so nice to know that I can relax a bit. (Granted, we’re business casual the rest of the time, so it’s not a huge difference…)

    14. Mike C.*

      It’s bullshit. If you can dress casually and not harm the business, then you should be allowed to dress casually whenever you come in to work.

      1. Joey*

        Not harm the business is open to interpretation though. How can you say with any certainty that it doesn’t impact (or does) the customers perception? Most employers who don’t like casual Fridays would rather not take the chance that it harms the business.

        As an extreme say I worked at the Ritz Carlton as a housekeeper, how easy would it be to say that casual Fridays won’t harm the business? It doesn’t impact my ability to clean rooms. Guests probably won’t noticeably stop coming. But it could down the road contribute to a perception my customers have that very well may harm the business.

        1. Betsy*

          I think (though I don’t mean to put words into Mike’s mouth) that the issue here is more one of: “If the business has decided it’s not harmful to wear jeans on Friday, then why is it harmful on Wednesday?”

          1. Joey*

            Same issue though. The harm might be bearable for one day, but two days is too much harm. Its so open to interpretation.

      3. Windchime*

        I agree with Mike C. If it’s OK to wear jeans on Friday, why not always? Unfortunately, it’s a moot point for me because we don’t have casual Fridays. I think I must work in the only IT department in the world (or in Seattle, at least) that doesn’t allow jeans. We are business casual, with varying degrees from smartly put together to leggings-as-pants. Not sure how skin-tight leggings is better than jeans, but somehow that’s what management has determined.

    15. Lizzy Mac*

      I’m not a fan. I like my work clothes and while I guess I could wear anything I want on a casual Friday I always feel like I would highlight a cultural fit issue if I don’t at least make an effort to look more casual that normal. So I go along with it to fit in but I’ve never been a fan. Almost everyone who works in my office is client-facing and I think it looks sloppy.

    16. Tinker*

      Us QA folks are trying to get Hawaiian Shirt Friday to catch on. To that end, I’m wearing a red shirt with flowers on — fortuitously, my company just changed its official color to red (same as my previous company, hence the shirt).

      I’m not big on “Casual Friday” for a few reasons. Primarily, it has ominous implications regarding what Monday – Thursday are not. At this point in my life, I’m not awesomely into notably formal clothes without a specific reason, and I work in an industry and region where non-casual dress codes are something of a minor red flag.

      Also, although heaven knows I’m not perfect about this, I’m a bit leery of cases where a day is a working day yet one that is less-than such that usual standards (even if I don’t like them) don’t apply. I think that in general if you show up to work, you should show up to work.

      Then, finally, introducing the notion that on some days you “are allowed” to wear certain styles of clothing “as a perk” crosses a line in my head regarding acceptable degrees of arbitrariness in dress codes — it’s too much like high school “hat days” and the like, which (occasional nightmares of missing finals while naked aside) is something I feel I’m done with by now.

      1. C Average*

        Well said. There is something kind of hat day-reminiscent about adults getting a yay-we-get-to-wear-jeans! day in an office.

        I think there’s also something a little obnoxious about things that the workplace positions as perks even though not everyone feels they’re perks. You feel like a party pooper if your outlook is “eh, thanks for the Kool-Aid, but I’m really more a water kind of person.”

        My office actually has something called Fun Committee that does things that are supposed to be morale-boosting. Most of them involve food and/or sports, and a lot of them are kind of innocuous but dumb, and it all feels a little juvenile to me. Which makes me feel like a curmudgeon. I think I’d feel the same way about casual Fridays if that was a thing here.

    17. The IT Manager*

      I much prefer casual everyday.

      We can wear jean, but no athletic shoes or t-shirts. I like these limits.

    18. SaraV*

      I started at previous job as a temp, and we were allowed to wear jeans on Friday. It was nice to know I could just roll out of bed, throw on a halfway decent top and jeans, and be on my way. (Oh…yes…I did shower) The company got a new CEO, though, and casual Fridays stopped. It wasn’t a HUGE deal since we were business casual the other four days of the week, but I did like that perk.

      I’ve never been one to complain about dress code…you usually know what it’s going to be when you apply/interview. (Unless there’s some radical change after you’re hired) The one time I did have a problem was when I worked in the loan ops department of a bank here in the Midwest. Their policy was sandals only between Memorial Day and Labor Day. Of course, this didn’t account for that freakish 94° day in April, and I had to walk 3-4 blocks from where I parked to my office. Once I left for the day, I got back to my car and took my shoes off and peeeeeeled my socks off. Drove home barefoot. I wish the policy was more “If the forecasted high for the next day is >85°, then you’re allowed to wear sandals.”

      I know…there’s many an office that doesn’t allow sandals at all. I just wish the policy was written/implemented a bit better.

    19. Kelly O*

      I like it, but our office does not participate in that. The regional offices do, but not individual stations. Our now-former HR person was very, very adamant about that, and I’ve yet to see any “give” at all.

      It can depend on the person running things, so when we get new management in, we’ll see what happens. Personally, I stay in an office all day with the door closed, so I don’t think it’s a huge deal to wear a dark rinse jean with the same button-down instead of dressier pants and shoes.

      Although I will say it does depend on the industry and your clientele. We have international clients who come in on Fridays in full three-piece suits for meetings, so our environment is a little different. And I admittedly got spoiled at OldJob, because we could wear jeans every day.

    20. She is Me*

      Ive never really ‘got’ casual Fridays. Either something (jeans, khakis, flip flops?) are appropriate for your workplace, or they’re not. I mean, if it’s good enough for Friday, why not Wednesday? And if they are considered inappropriate for regular wear, how are they magically appropriate one day a week? Like another commenter here, my office is casual every day, unless we are having meetings or otherwise expecting VIPs. That makes more sense to me than an arbitrary day to ‘dress down’.

    21. Graciosa*

      There have been a lot of comments about why Friday casual should be every day casual, so I wanted to share a possible reason for the distinction. We have business casual Monday through Thursday, and casual on Friday. Meetings with anyone external to the company tend to be scheduled other than on Friday. This allows us to present a professional image to the world, but also “let our hair down” a bit one day a week (conveniently just before the weekend).

      There are companies where presenting a more professional image to outsiders is not really an issue due to the nature of the work, so I think the “Why not every day” argument has more validity in those cases. However, every company does have its own culture, and dress standards are part of that – another reminder of the importance of finding a good fit.

      1. Tinker*

        Part of the thing I have with this is — where I am, me wearing jeans is fully professional. There’s not this thing of “I guess we can let you” or “Well, we can compromise on one day at least” or things like that — it’s a proper way to dress for someone in my role.

        However, I see — here, but I also have met some people in person who have this perspective — folks who really don’t think that way. I think the last time this came up there was a person who drew a parallel to wearing pajamas to work; at the very least, I’ve seen that comparison made before. There, some given standard (say, the common definition of “business casual” where the bottom rung is polos-and-khakis) is the base standard, and whatever else — say, jeans-with-hawaiian-shirt-and-tacktical-boots — is below the normal standard.

        In that case, I’m not so wild on taking up offers to come in “below the normal standard” during an ordinary work day — I’d prefer not to work for people who get their noses up and see jeans as unprofessional, but if I do have to do that I don’t see “you can wear things that we have a negative opinion about around us sometimes” as a particularly appealing option. It’s like the kitten belly trap in that regard.

    23. Anon today*

      My company has went from professional every day, to casual Fridays. Then a couple of years ago went to casual daily and jeans Fridays. Now we went to jeans daily but professional or casual if the situation calls for it on a certain day. Everyone loves it, but I still tend to dress casual most days because I only have 3 nice pairs of jeans. I need to go shopping, but have really stocked up on the nicer clothes so I hate to waste them.

    24. Aisling*

      I think it depends on the type of office. I work in a public library that’s open 7 days a week, and we have Casual Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, though business casual Monday through Thursday. I prefer wearing jeans, because you never know what we’re going to have to do: I’ve crawled around on the floor trying to fix computer equipment, I’ve had to clean up spilled drinks and other assorted messes, I’ve had to fish dusty books out from behind an old bookcase, etc. Even on business casual days, I’m generally in khakis or something like that.

    25. Hlyssande*

      When my division moved to our current office out of the other division’s building, they took away our Casual Fridays. As justification, they cited that the new office is in a fancy office park, so we needed to match… except that on my first Friday lunch trip, the majority of the people I saw were in jeans. All of the other local divisions still have Casual Fridays.

      We also lost the on-site cafeteria with good prices (I could eat a good breakfast + lunch for $10/daily).

      Gained: Covered parking garage, free coffee (via keurig).

      It’s been two and a half years and I still miss being able to relax a little more on Friday.

    26. Sharm*

      I’ve never worked in a place that had a very stuffy, business dress-code, so for me, I’m very indifferent. I find it weird to come in to work in a t-shirt and jeans; wearing work clothes is kind of like wearing a costume to me in that helps get me “in character” for the work day.

      Having said that, I happen to like fashion and dressing well, so at my current office (which actually has a written Casual Friday dress code), I’ll wear skinny jeans and a cute fitted tee. It still feels dressier than a baggy t-shirt and sweats, which I could just never wear to work.

      Based on past experience with clothes/appearance on these boards, I think I’m in the minority on liking fashion, but there it is. Even with a Casual Friday policy, I’m going to step it up, so I don’t really care either way for it.

      Now, I imagine if I worked corporate law or for some of those uppercrust financial firms, I’d feel differently, but I doubt any of them get Casual Fridays anyway. (Yay for working on the West Coast and in the Pacific all my life!)

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        We have casual Fridays – jeans, t-shirts, casual shoes etc – except when Very Important People come and visit and then it’s normal clothes. I am not very casual as up until recently (as in the past month) I didn’t own a pair of jeans – I’m much more of a dress & tights kinda girl :)

    27. Mary (in PA)*

      I am in an office where casual dress is the norm (like many others in this thread), but our art department does Formal Fridays, where they wear suits and ties.

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Heh, some of the guys I work with do that, but they call it “non-casual Tie-day”. People wear jeans Monday – Thursday and get all dressed up on Fridays. It’s kinda awesome!

    28. Puddin*

      I hate it but not because I don’t think jeans are appropriate. Our policy is business casual Mon-Thurs, and jeans on Friday. Why can’t I wear jeans any other day?Why are they ok on one day of the week but not others?

      In addition, we often have charity fundraisers where you can wear jeans on certain days if you contribute. So now I can wear jeans about 35% of the work days, but not the rest. We are also told to always dress appropriately if we have outside guests coming in for meetings. This means on some days you have to forgo the jeans that you might normally wear. Why can’t that be the policy – just dress for any meetings you may have and business jeans the rest of the time.

      I don’t even care about wearing jeans that much, it just seems like the policy is controlling and juvenile.

      /end rant

  8. Cruciatus*

    Is there much point to applying through the same online university application system for the same job I was already rejected for but in a different department that has been newly posted? I was rejected through the system the first time very quickly–my guess is because I had to choose “no” to questions they wanted “yeses” for. I’m certain they didn’t even make it to my resume or cover letter. If I did reapply I would maybe tweak my cover letter a bit. I’d still have to choose “no” to those questions on their system (“Do you have experience with our blah blah program for students?” No, I don’t, though I read all about it on the website. And it’s something I could learn, dammit!) I’m sure it never hurts to reapply but, realistically, is it worth the effort of tweaking things a bit and trying again when it’s probable I’ll just be rejected by the supplemental questions (for the first application in a different department I applied on a Friday evening, was rejected by Sunday night)? There are other jobs to apply to elsewhere, though I think I would actually make a good fit for this one. Anyone out there have personal experience with online university application systems?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t have personal experience with the application systems, but I know different departments can be very different even with jobs in the same class. I think when in doubt, apply.

    2. Bryan*

      Ugh that happened to me during my job search. They wanted 5 years experience doing chocolate teapot making for a position that would only be making the handle (which is quite rare in my profession). I had 2 years experience doing handle making but no other experience so I had to answer no do their 5 year question.

      I would apply again but put in the minimal effort to change things.

    4. Sascha*

      As a person who has hired at a university with one of those atrocious systems, I say yes. At my university, I get to see every application, even if the system “rejects” it because you answered “no” to some of those questions. I still have the power to make a judgement call based on your resume and cover letter. I’ve even hired some people who were rejected by the system when they applied, and they turned out great. So I think it’s worth applying, because you never know what hiring manager is looking at the applications. Good luck to you!

      1. C Average*

        This comment gives me hope! I’m not applying to any such jobs, but it’s really nice to know that a living human capable of making informed judgments sees these applications.

      2. Cruciatus*

        Thanks, Sascha. You give me some hope. I applied for the same position but at a different university just seconds ago and was rejected immediately. I hate that I feel like I wasted the entire weekend (my fault for getting too serious about applying) only to be rejected seconds after I clicked “Confirm.” I’ll just have to hope someone will choose to read my cover letter any way!

        1. Sascha*

          I’m sorry that happened. :( Hopefully their system will allow someone to review every app, and not just the “passed” apps. With every round of hiring we do for the positions on my team, we get lots of people who “pass” the questions section, and it becomes abundantly clear when reviewing their resumes and cover letters that they have no idea what job they just applied to (we have a tendency to get cover letters for the wrong job, sometimes the wrong university, or resumes with experience in totally different areas). If HR only let us see those people who answered “yes” to everything, we’d rarely hire anyone!

    5. Lia*

      I work at a university, and YES, apply again. The questions may not be a dealbreaker for the other department.

      I can’t speak to other universities, but at mine, if you apply in my area and six others, I can only tell that you have applied for the job I am hiring for, not the others.

    6. Polaris*

      I only have experience with one university, but different departments may use different supplemental questions. Also, job duties for the same title can vary across departments. If you are interested in the job, apply. If you get a second quick rejection, that may be an indication not to try a third time, but I would not give up just yet. Good luck!

  9. SD Cat*

    Summoning energy to write more cover letters! I just finished my student job yesterday, and am hoping that post-graduation unemployment won’t be too extended. Any advice for sounding less stilted when talking about yourself?

    1. LBK*

      Write it exactly like you would write an email to a good friend or a family member, then polish up the professionalism as needed. You should find that easier than starting professional and then trying to inject friendliness/personality into it, which almost always comes across forced and awkward.

    2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      1) Use contractions. “I’ve” instead of “I have,” and whatnot.

      2) Use more colloquial language, and don’t use fancy words unnecessarily. It drives me nuts, for instance, when applicants say “utilize” instead of “use.”

      Other than that, try to write just like one small step up from how you talk. Minus any swears. :)

      2. Kelly O*

        Yes!

        I reviewed a cover letter and resume for a former coworker, and it sounded as though she’d gotten a brand-new thesaurus and couldn’t wait to use it. She acted a little upset when I told her that it didn’t even sound like her, and it would be worse when she got in an interview and her “voice” didn’t sound the same, so we made some changes.

        (And it worked – she got the job. I am great at other people’s resumes, just not my own…)

        1. Ali*

          I almost feel like asking if you can help me with my resume! I re-did it a couple weeks ago and posted it in the resumes subgroup of the AAM LinkedIn group and got no feedback. :( But I understand if you wouldn’t want to help an anonymous AAM reader!

      3. Sharm*

        God, this goes against everything I was taught in school. I’m (heh) not disagreeing with you at all — finally giving in to using contractions has (in part) made me cover letters so much better. But it’s amazing how getting yelled at about using “I’ve” can stick with you for decades!

    3. Judy*

      Read it out loud a few times, and adjust the language to closer to your verbal tone.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      Have a trusted friend with a good eye for editing look it over and circle anything that sounds jargony.

  10. Anne 3*

    I accepted a new job today! In a different country! I have worked for this person before but everything else will be new.

    It’s an internal transfer, I won’t be going until the end of July, but still, aah!

    If anyone has any tips on working with French people (heard they’re very formal and intimidating) or looking for apartments in cities you don’t know, I’d welcome them :)

    2. nep*

      First piece of advice about working with French people, or any people — best not to go into it with preconceived notions and generalisations. Congratulations and all the best. Bonne chance!

      1. Anne 3*

        Haha, thanks. It may be more of a company, too – I currently work for a subsidiary of the French headquarters, so all I’ve heard may be very biased against the ruling powers :)

      2. Grey*

        Great advice. Maybe they’ve heard that all Americans are lazy. Would you want them to assume that you are?

        1. Anne 3*

          I’m not American, I’m from a neighboring country of France.. Like I said to nep, it might be more of a company thing, I don’t mean to generalize.

    4. Cautionary tail*

      Some real experiences in Paris. Our group consisted of Canadian French speakers from Quebec so the general language was not an issue.

      (1) They are very proud of their language and want you to pronounce things correctly. Several times we asked for directions and the person would not give us directions until we pronounced our destination a half-dozen times correctly to his satisfaction.

      (2) Drugs were slipped into the soft drink of a person in our group.

      (3) The Metro ticket agent purposely gave us incorrect directions on which train to get on/which direction to go.

      (4) We were mooned, and it wasn’t even dark out.

      (5 ) A stink bomb was detonated on our Metro subway car.

      Far outside of Paris the people were much warmer and more welcoming. Warmer to the point of hugs.

      Bon chance !

      1. Anne 3*

        Thanks for this! I currently work in another European capital so these experiences are not completely unfamiliar to me, unfortunately :)
        I am a bit scared about the language thing, I speak French to a degree (use it in my current job almost daily and I get by) but I’m nowhere near fluent. But I suppose once I’m there I’ll get much better in a few months.

    6. AVP*

      I feel like I’m always recommending this book here, but it’s pretty informative and not as depressing as it sounds. Paris I Love You But You’re Bringing Me Down, by Rosencrans Baldwin, is a memoir about leaving NYC to work for an ad agency in Paris (and it’s pretty funny). He goes into a lot of detail about the world culture, how the lunch system works, things he was surprised to learn, etc.

    7. L'anglaise*

      I found my colleagues in French companies quite the opposite: warm and welcoming.

      Importantly, be prepared to greet everyone with “Bonjour” the first time you see them each day, and shake hands (or after a while perhaps ‘faire la bise’ if you are friends and contemporaries – but wait till they initiate it).

      As it sounds like a large company, there may be a committee providing facilities and perks for employees, such as a library, reduced gym membership, outings and trips, workplace choirs, etc. This can be a great way to start engaging with colleagues.

      Going together to the (generally subsidised) company canteen is another good way.

      In a shop or asking for directions, always start with “Bonjour Madame” or “Bonjour Monsieur” – not to do so appears impolite, so it’s not so surprising if they are rude back.

      Use ex-pat websites to gather info on apartment-hunting. Anglophone churches often have general notice boards where jobs or accommodation may be posted and can be a good center for finding out where to start. Be prepared to either pay higher prices to a landlord willing to let shorter-term to foreigners (word of mouth can be good for this), or get a local guarantor and gather the enormous amounts of paperwork needed for a standard long-term rental. Required paperwork might include the last 3 months’ pay slips, bank statement, letter from employer confirming permanent employment and salary, letter from previous landlord (in French) confirming you have always paid your rent on time, AND the same again from your guarantor…

      Good luck, and have a wonderful time. I did!

      1. Anne 3*

        I’ll keep that in mind, thanks! Are there other French posters here? Maybe we should plan a meetup :D

  11. Ali*

    Yay early today!

    I am starting a social media internship role not this coming week, but the next. I took an internship because I have never had social media experience in a professional position before. Of course, I am not quitting my current job for this, as it’s not a paid position, but there’s a possibility that it could turn into paid work in a few months…part-time then full-time if all goes well. Even if it turns into nothing more, though, I am happy to get the experience and have something to boost my resume.

    Unfortunately, my mom doesn’t get my job search and is like you’re trained as a writer and editor; you don’t need all those other skills! What else do you want to do? Yes, Mom I was a communications/journalism major but just writing and editing is NOT enough these days. I swear I will just stop talking to her about my job search. It kind of upsets me that my family won’t support me in my quest for other skills/another field because they feel I should strictly be in journalism/writing only.

    I am also planning to start a health and fitness blog soon, as I’ve been trying to lose weight for about a year and have a Zumba license that I really want to start using. I’m no expert or anything, but I have decided to start my own project and really want it to take off.

    Things are mostly well this week, but parents and job search…ugh.

    1. Anne 3*

      Aaah I feel you :( I have a degree in Journalism and now I work for a bank. I’m very happy there but people definitely questioned it a lot at the beginning. Don’t listen to them too much and do what you think is right for you!

      1. Ali*

        What do you do at the bank? Are you in a marketing role there?

        I keep up with a former staffer of our school paper on LinkedIn, and even she isn’t in newspapers anymore. She did start there but I think now she works for a government organization or a nonprofit.

        1. Anne 3*

          I’m currently a process manager! It’s not at all what I thought I’d be doing when I was 18 but I enjoy it and it pays my bills, so I’m happy.

    2. editor for this*

      I know it’s easy to say, but it would be great just to let their doubts or confusion about your quest be their problems, not yours. Not that anyone else’s opinion matters in what you do, including mine, but I’m completely with you about adding those skills; taking the internship is great initiative. I’ve worked as a journalist and communications consultant; for many jobs in this field these days, indeed one must be competent in social media. (We’ve got some things in common — I’m also working part-time in fitness, going for some training certifications.) All the best.

      1. Ali*

        What certifications are you going for? I would like more eventually but want to get my Zumba business and fitness blog going before I keep jumping in.

        1. editor for this*

          Initially personal trainer certification — I’ve got an opportunity to take a course where I’m working part-time; I’m not sure where it falls in the rankings of cert programmes, but I want to seize all opportunities to build my knowledge base and glad this came along. I plan to do a training for TRX as well. Look forward to checking out your blog.

    3. C Average*

      How does your mother figure working in social media ISN’T journalism?

      I worked in social media for several years and it’s NOT just hanging out on Facebook having fun all day. It’s listening to your audience, tailoring content to them, responding with agility to emerging information, controlling spin, fact-checking, research, writing, editing, proofing, collaborating, localization, change tracking, branding, tone, style, and lots of other tasks and considerations that a background in journalism prepares you to do.

      The biggest thing your journalism background will help you with in social media? Producing ephemera and doing it well. People who perceive themselves as writers want to create great content and know that it has some meaningful shelf life. People who perceive themselves as journalists know that even if the content they create is great, it’s unlikely to remain relevant for more than a few days. It can be challenging to keep producing great content with this realization, but good journalists do. A good journalist’s mindset is a huge advantage in social media.

      2. Ali*

        My mom is a nurse and hasn’t searched for a job in about eight years. I think that explains everything.

        She also doesn’t understand why I want to quit my current job b/c she’d never do that and that’s not how she was raised. Even though I gave her the AAM line of how I am not planning on leaving until I have a job offer, she still believes it’s outrageous and thinks I should stay because I work from home and the pay is decent. Right because that will automatically fix every other problem I have with my job that’s causing me to search.

        As far as my field goes, it’s really important to be versatile these days. So many communications jobs want you to know PR, social media, web design/maintenance, video editing and so forth depending on the job title, employer type, etc. My mom thinks all that’s important is being a writer and editor and that I don’t need anything else. My older sister (who also has a stable job as a teacher) thinks that I will never get a job that doesn’t require second-shift hours and insists it’s mandatory in my field to work late and on weekends and be on call. While yes I am OK with occasional overtime and weekends, I’m not OK with what I’m doing now…which is working largely evenings and having to to work full shifts on two of the three weekend days. There has to be some balance I feel.

        1. C Average*

          Survey of one says you’re exactly right on this one and should listen to your instincts. No matter where you go, the skills you’ve mentioned will be a huge asset and will give you more options, including some that have more traditional hours. Stay the course. You’ll be fine.

          You’ll also gain the critical skill of dealing with unwanted and unhelpful feedback (which, alas, you’ll need in social media and pretty much everywhere else) by dealing with your mother and sister’s advice. “Thanks. Mom. I’m glad you love me and want me to have a successful career. In this case we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I need to chart my own course based on my own knowledge of the job market and the industries that interest me. I’m sure I’ll make some mistakes, but that’s how you learn, right?”

          [I used a variation on this script for quite a long time. I love my folks and admire the success they’ve had on their own career paths, but they’re hopelessly naive about what work actually means now.]

      3. EmmBee*

        +1000

        I’m a senior director of social. Sometimes people think I’m just in Facebook and Twitter all day, but it’s so so so much more than that. Most of my work is about strategy, and there’s tons of writing (I run our company blog, which is where a journo background is awesome), tons of idea generation and brainstorming. It’s also lots of customer service. And of course, lots of technology know-how — I have to know the ins and outs of every platform, I have to keep my eye on emerging platforms, etc.

        1. Sharm*

          Kind of a side note, but would you ever be open to discussing your career path and what types of things a more junior person should be doing to get where you are?

  12. Stephanie*

    I saw a job posting in Doha, Qatar and am intrigued. It’s a research opening at big US university.

    Anyone have any experience there? It seems like it’s one of the more stable countries in that region.

    1. the gold digger*

      I have been to Dubai twice for work. Not my favorite, but there are a ton of expats working there.What I don’t like about Dubai is that it is a very unequal society – almost 80% expats who can never become citizens. It is a dictatorship, which I guess is OK if you agree with the sheikh. (Not sure what the political system is in Qatar, but the expat situation is similar.)

      I lived outside of the US for two years and was surprised at how hard it was to live outside of my own culture, but there were not a lot of expats around, as there would be in Qatar.

      My parents worked in Saudi Arabia for five years. I don’t think it’s like this in Qatar, but they lived on a compound with other expats. My mom was not allowed to drive, so her employer had to provide a car and driver to get her to and from work.

      It might be a good thing to do for a short while to save money. It used to be that if you were working outside the US for a certain amount of time, you didn’t pay US income tax. Not sure what the rules are now.

      http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27142647

      1. Jules*

        Not anymore. As long as you keep your US citizenship, you pay US taxes. And it also depends if the country has tax treaty with the US. We pay for tax consultants for our expats.

    2. Bryan*

      This is all second hand but I’ve heard while they’re doing exciting new projects it’s still a semi boring city. I’m assuming by your name that you’re a woman and I’d be a little nervous about that. I would also check out the country’s laws and their might be some deal breakers there.

      1. Stephanie*

        Yup, female (and American). I’m also black (if it’s not clear from my Gravatar), if that’s at all relevant.

        1. the gold digger*

          Again – I haven’t been to Qatar, but I did not see many black people in Dubai (if any – trying to remember). I noticed a lot of Filipino women and my cab drivers all seemed to be Pakistani. The professionals I worked with there are almost all Indian.

          1. Stephanie*

            Oh, I don’t necessarily care if there are tons of black people (because that would eliminate many US cities even), I was just curious if that would change things at all.

            1. JBeane*

              I’ve never been to the Middle East so take this with a grain of salt, but I think being black might make a difference in how you’re treated there. Some friends of mine traveled to that region a few months ago and the two black members of the group definitely noticed they were treated more poorly. Enough so that they everyone left a few days early. Again, I’ve never been there and this is secondhand information of just one trip, but I’d advise you to research this via other ex-pats of color before taking a job there.

            2. Anonymous*

              It will. I’d recommend finding another black person who has lived there for firsthand details, but my experience in other Arab countries has been that they look down upon dark skin and there is overt discrimination against anyone who is not European or Arab.

    3. the_scientist*

      This article is a fascinating read: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html

      People go there and make tonnes of money and don’t pay taxes, but forget that they’ve sacrificed many of the rights available to them in democratic countries- not necessarily an issue if you’re just planning on working for a few years, making bank, and getting out, but worthwhile to keep in mind. Also, you’d have to be okay living in a city/economy that’s practically built on slave labour.

    4. Blue Anne*

      My cousin (female thirty-something) and uncle work there. I’ve never gotten the impression that they had any real concerns, but they definitely have some funky stories.

      Best one from my cousin: At a party, all expats. One of her male friends is in town, staying at a hotel, and comes to the party. He hits it off with a woman there and they go back to his hotel. Five minutes after they get into the hotel room, they get a call from the front desk – they saw the woman coming in with him, they know he’s not married and if she doesn’t leave in ten minutes they’ll be sending up security. The two of them can’t quite believe that so they ignore it and continue with, er, what they’re doing. Fifteen minutes later security knocks on the door and escorts her out.

      So. Be aware of the cultural norms.

        1. CA Anon*

          The crazy part of that story: the woman was arrested at the police station when she was there to report her rape. In Islamic law, it isn’t rape unless you have 3 male witnesses who’ll testify to the fact. Otherwise it’s adultery or extramarital sex, which will get you arrested and punished.

          1. A Non*

            Yep. Apparently you need multiple male witnesses to prove rape, but her claim that she was raped is enough evidence to convict her of extramarital sex. This has happened to tourists multiple times in the last few years.

            http://austriantimes.at/news/General_News/2014-01-21/50360/Dubai_to_charge_Austrian_women_victim_for_illegal_sex
            http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/20/world/meast/uae-norway-rape-controversy/
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Gali
            http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/rape-victim-alicia-gali-still-traumatised-three-years-after-she-was-raped-and-jailed-for-adultery-in-united-arab-emirates/story-e6freoof-1226457979944

            1. A Non*

              Aack, my formatting didn’t work very well. Those links go to three different stories of three different women who were in Dubai for work or vacation, were raped, and were sentenced to jail time for it. Most of them got enough of an international outcry to get out.

    5. CA Anon*

      Keep in mind that in Qatar, foreigners working there have to get their employer’s ok to quit their job or leave the country. There are also minimal protections (if any) for foreign workers. If you’re seriously interested, do some in-depth research on the laws there because I’ve heard some absolute horror stories.

    6. Lluviata*

      I spent one week in Doha visiting with a group of US students from a big US university for a school project. I can give you some first impressions on the country.
      I also have some details on the perks of working as an expat in Qatar. One of my friends went to teach in Qatar for a year so I know a few things about living and working there from him. I don’t know if your specific job will contain these perks, but this way you’ll know to ask about them when you’re deciding.

      First impressions:
      -Doha looks rich, mostly because it is. There are beautiful flowers planted along all of the public areas, huge mansion-like houses, opulence everywhere, gold decor, great museums, personal drivers for each family, etc. There are parts of the city that don’t look expensive too but it seemed to me like there were more rich areas than not. And there is LOTS of construction going on in the city.
      -Many of the Qataris are doing well, but not everyone in the country is. Immigrants from nearby countries will come to Qatar to work. My second-hand information is that these immigrants are generally treated poorly and that the immigration system tends to exploit people.
      -Women do NOT have to cover their hair or wear a burka (which is not called a burka, it’s something else). Remember, I went with a group of 6 women from the US. None of us covered our hair, and no one looked twice at our standard American clothes. This was really a non-issue.
      -However, the cultural attitude toward women is still mildly sexist. It’s not like women are second-class citizens, but rather that women there are 1 and 1/2-class citizens. My experience is that the women students were expected to work harder than the men for the same recognition and be better than the men for the same recognition, but they weren’t held back directly or told that it was inappropriate for women to do the same things. I don’t know how safe is it to be a woman in Qatar. I would suspect it’s about the same as being in the US, but that’s worth a little research.

      Perks
      -Working a job there can be a great way to make money temporarily. My friend lived in a complex with other American teachers (these tend to be gated) when he worked in Qatar. The house was nice, and either cheap or free with his contract. Your pay would probably be better than in the US (1.2 or 1.5 times), you have subsidized housing, and sometimes subsidized transportation. The details of your job would of course be different, so be sure to check!
      -A lot of expats socialize within their compound. So there’s a built-in community for you if you are interested in it.

      Summary
      Doha can be a very nice place to live and work. You may (or may not) be able to save a good amount of money if you get the job. The culture would definitely require an adjustment, but may in the range of what you are looking for.

      1. Jules*

        “My experience is that the women were expected to work harder than the men for the same recognition and be better than the men for the same recognition”

        Unfortunately, I see this happening in the US too. But maybe because I work in Midwest.

      2. Carrie in Scotland*

        My dad worked in Doha for a while – but I was quite young and don’t remember much about it, other than he had to wear factor 50 sunscreen all the time.

        Isn’t Dubai “dry” or strict on alcohol/drinking?

  13. Allison Mary*

    I saw this article this morning on LinkedIn, and I had to share it. I may be a little biased with my own situation right now (I definitely feel like my manager falls into the category of men described in this article), but this feels SO TRUE to me.

    It’s worth noting that the author of this article is a man. :)

    http://blogs.hbr.org/2013/08/why-do-so-many-incompetent-men/

    What do others think of this?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ooof, I hate that kind of gender-based crap. So many incompetent people become leaders, not just men. Most of us would find this hugely offensive if he were writing about women; it’s no difference just because he picked a different sex.

      1. Allison Mary*

        That’s very true. I think that the overall themes of how we tend to mistake confidence for competence is true though – and it can certainly apply to either gender.

      2. The Real Ash*

        I agree. It can be said about anything based on race or sex, it’s more about the person themselves than the category they fit into.

      3. A Non*

        I think there’s a point in there that our culture gives men more leeway to be arrogant/demanding/self-centered than women. That plus humanity’s chronic inability to distinguish competence from hubris results in some of the gender imbalance that shows up in leadership positions.

        That said, I really dislike how that article was written. I don’t think it made its points clearly.

    2. Annie O*

      This reminds me of something I’ve been thinking about lately, which is: there is a real difference between a good leader and a good manager. Every personality test I’ve ever taken has told me I’m a natural leader. And it’s true; I can take command of a room or a group with little effort. That said, I’m not a great manager. It does not come easy for me and the skill sets are not the same. I can take control of a group and get us to the finish line, but that’s not the same as developing the people reporting to me. I’m not sure how this plays out with the gender differences the article discusses.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It’s the difference between what a leader does and what a manager does. Think CEO vs Store manager. There is knowledge over lap there but the difference is scope.

        Nope, it has no bearing on gender differences.

        Not all leaders can manage well. They can make it work if they surround themselves with people who do manage well and if the leader is willing to listen to those people.

    3. Joey*

      I’m surprised there wasn’t a slew of commenters telling you how sexist and unfair this is. What gives?

          1. The Real Ash*

            Probably because a lot of people don’t care what happens to men. They’re allowed to be punching bags. It’s unfortunate, but true.

              1. The Real Ash*

                I didn’t say “women don’t care” I said “people don’t care”, meaning both men and women. There are definitely male readers on this blog, but I don’t see them commenting on this either. Don’t pretend that only one sex is ignoring the issue when it’s society at large that doesn’t really care what happens to men.

              2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Not that I can tell. I think you just don’t see the same reaction to this because this kind of thing is far more troubling when it’s directed toward a group that’s been historically and systemically marginalized. It’s problematic either way, but one has far more wide-reaching ramifications.

                1. Joey*

                  I agree with that, but then let’s not kid ourselves and pretend we don’t differentiate when we say we say we have a problem with sexism. What we’re really saying is sexism against women is a bigger sin than sexism against men.

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  I think we’re saying sexism hurts everyone, but institutionalized, systemic sexism is especially damaging and worth attention.

                3. Joey*

                  What does that mean though? that if I discriminate against women I should be treated differently than if it were men?

                5. winona*

                  Joey, I would argue that sexism against women IS a bigger sin than sexism against men (and not to get all pedantic about it, sexism isn’t just a matter of unequal treatment, but institutional power PLUS prejudice, which means that, arguably, one cannot be truly “sexist” against men). Someone openly criticizing men — even unfairly — does not speak to an ongoing societal bias against them. Men are still in a greater position of power than women, they are often taken more seriously than women, especially in the workplace… The list goes on.

                  In addition, I was reading your earlier comment, where you were surprised people didn’t come out of the woodwork to talk about how “unfair” the article is, to men — it sounded like, underneath it all, you were kind of annoyed that people come forward all the time to call out the articles aimed at criticizing women? Maybe more people should think about why it’s only unfair treatment when men are getting the same “short end of the stick” that women receive ALL THE FREAKIN’ TIME.

                6. Joey*

                  Maybe if I provide some context it will help you understand my issue. Let’s say one of my employees illegally discriminates against women. Is it justifiable to be harsher than if it were against men? Or against whites? I’d have a hard time with that.

                7. Shell*

                  Joey, I would argue that the remedial actions (stern talking to, PIP, other repercussions) be the same regardless of who was being discriminated against (in your example, white people vs. POC, or men vs. women, or insert comparisons of your choice). But because there is a systematic disadvantage to people of colour, women, etc., it’s at least natural to hear more outrage about those issues, because they’ve been treated more poorly for a longer period of time.

                  If you’re in a position to do something about it, I would say you shouldn’t treat them differently in your actions regardless of who is being discriminated against. But in terms of gut reactions? It’s natural to be rather different there.

                8. Joey*

                  That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense though. The seriousness of the action helps determine the consequences. If I’m more outraged that’s an indication that I probably consider it a worse offense.

                9. Shell*

                  Seriousness of the action should determine the consequences. But I’d say while seriousness of the action often correlates with level of outrage, it’s not directly related. You can dole out punishment equal to the crime whether or not you froth at the mouth about it. Outrage is more of a gut reaction; doling out punishment should be a measured, rational decision.

                  In this case, I’d argue that despite whatever level of outrage one musters against discrimination of A vs. discrimination of B, the punishment should be the same if the infraction was the same (so…hate speech and death threats to both would be treated the same, but death threats vs. cutting in line at the microwave…perhaps not).

                10. Joey*

                  Wait, that means that having a different level of outrage is an understandable, yet irrational reaction?

      2. Allison Mary*

        I go back and forth with this – I think that parts of it have valid points, but parts of it are definitely sexist. For instance, this quote:

        “But a much bigger problem is the lack of career obstacles for incompetent men, and the fact that we tend to equate leadership with the very psychological features that make the average man a more inept leader than the average woman.”

        To me that definitely has a sexist skew. I think it would be more accurate if it were written to say simply that there is a lack of career obstacles for incompetent people in general, and those people often wind up in leadership when their confidence is mistaken for competence. That being said, I don’t find it offensive or sexist merely to observe (in academic studies, etc.) where certain traits tend to fall more in one gender than the other. I think drawing generalized conclusions from that data like, “men tend to be incompetent leaders” is where it gets really dangerous.

      3. winona*

        Joey, the reason why people aren’t falling over themselves in support of public criticism of men (no matter how off-base in this context) is that women have to deal with that kind of thing the majority of the time. A one-off article about the incompetence of many men in leadership just isn’t the same thing, particularly because studies have been done showing that, from childhood onward, men have been told repeatedly that they’re excellent and rewarded for traits which are discouraged and devalued in women. I mean, this article is already being brushed off as poorly written and inaccurate (which I agree with, by the way), and one article slamming men’s competency in leadership isn’t exactly adding to the sexism that men face every day in the workplace (which, you know they don’t). If this was written about women? Well, it’d just be reinforcing an already-popular negative framing of women in the workplace, which, yeah, is underlined by sexism that men just don’t face.

        So forgive us if we’re not rallying behind the cry of “WHAT ABOUT THE MEN????”

        2. winona*

          …I don’t even know what happened to my first sentence, sorry. Try, “people aren’t falling over themselves to debunk public criticism of men.”

        4. Joey*

          So you’re saying I should be treated differently depending on who I’m discriminating against?

          I’m not trying to be argumentative here I just don’t see how one is a bigger sin. Does that mean if I as a minority discriminate in favor of minorities its not as bad as if I were white. That seems sort of hypocritical.

          1. winona*

            Obviously, you shouldn’t be discriminating against anyone? But yeah, in my opinion, discriminating against people who have less privilege and less power in the grand scheme of things is pretty much worse than the other way around. Contributing to the ill treatment of historically oppressed groups is a lot more serious than people — usually members of said oppressed groups — making generalized statements about people in higher positions and privilege.

            “All men are incompetent managers and all around terrible people” is clearly a load of crap, but if I go around saying that to everyone, it’s not reinforcing a lifetime of societal prejudice against dudes. If someone came up to me and called me a “cracker” it’s obviously not the politest thing in the world, but it’s not contributing to a lifetime of societal prejudice against white people. On the other hand, I can’t count the number of articles I’ve had to read about how women are useless in the workplace. Tons of people still talk about how women shouldn’t be elected President of the US because, har har har, nobody wants a lady to have the nuclear launch codes when she’s on the rag! Even on the internet, when women blog openly as women, they’re subject to a kind of harassment and invalidation that men are much less likely to face — maybe try googling “blogging while female”? Threats of violence against women with unpopular opinion and outright dismissal of their viewpoints (“Looks like SOMEONE needs a midol!”) is commonplace and you can’t tell me that kind of thing is gender-neutral.

            Like I said in my first comment, studies have shown that certain qualities are lauded in men from an early age and discouraged in women. Assertiveness, dominant behavior, a fully-formed sense of self worth. That list, too, goes on. Similarly, certain qualities are discouraged and devalued in POC while they’re celebrated in white people. The “angry black man” trope is bandied around as a negative while similar behaviors in a white businessman might get him labeled as “intense” or “a go-getter.” You absolutely cannot say that there aren’t horrible double-standards in play all over the place, and that writing a critical (even scathing) article about men or white people is in any way as problematic as writing one about women or minority groups. Is it hypocritical? I don’t know. It is fair? Probably not. But it’s funny to me that when people have things to say about those hysterical womenfolk~, men are either silent as the grave or willing to chime in only so far as how it relates to them — “NOT ALL MEN think that way! NOT ALL MEN are disrespectful to women!” — as if the original speaker really, truly, and literally meant that all men ever are prejudiced against women. And what’s more, men are so much more likely to cry out “it’s not fair!” when faced with exactly. the. same. thing. that women are subject to on a regular basis.

            Like, in all seriousness, Joey — do you really think your life is impacted, daily, by the knowledge that some women are frustrated as hell about this inequality and are making unfavorable (and yes, generalized) statements about men?

            1. Joey*

              Philosophically I get it. I’m tired of it and disappointed that people still hold onto outdated or ignorant views. But I can’t bring myself to hold all of that baggage against each and every person that does wrong. I can’t justify punishing someone in part based on what violations someone else did. I look at the actions individually and base my decisions only in regard to what that person did. The historical part to me only comes into play on addressing it on a more broader scale.

              1. winona*

                Well, you know, I’m glad you have that luxury, but to the women who are dealing with this constantly and having to hear people imply that they’re punishing individual men for the actions of the whole (btw, if the individual men would like to take other men to task for their sexist behavior, that’s fantastic, go you, but know it’s RARE) — well, forgive us if we’re not gonna look at this stuff from the same, oh so lofty point of view as someone who’s removed from it.

      4. fposte*

        Because Alison hit it first post out, because the author of the article isn’t posting here, and there are 500 other posts in the thread to read anyway.

  14. abankyteller*

    Yay! I need advice. I’m leaving my job at the end of the month and will give notice next week. I’m leaving because New Job has a better schedule for the same hours/pay. I’ve been looking for a while because my manager has made multiple comments to me about my age that leave me feeling like I’m being discriminated against because of my age and that’s why I was passed over for full time hours (those went to a new hire who had only been with the company two months and didn’t have industry ed experience). What do I say when people ask me why I’m leaving? Making it about the schedule throws my department manager under the bus when really it’s her boss that I have the biggest issue with. Please advise!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      If it’s just casual conversation, I’d say something like “It was just time to move on to something new.”

    2. Ms. Anonymity*

      Just say that an opportunity too good to pass up came along, and not surprisingly, you couldn’t pass it up. Best of luck in your new position!

    3. Annie O*

      Could you say you’re looking for opportunities for full-time hours and career advancement?

      1. abankyteller*

        New Job is part time also. It’s just more hours over fewer days so it’s so much easier with a set schedule. I have two kids, one with special needs, so lots of appointments to work around.

        If this opportunity hadn’t fallen into my lap I was going to transfer to another office anyway–part time still, but different people and an extra day off each week. I’ve been working New Job a little on the side and I feel great about it. I never felt this way about Current Job. Maybe rose-colored glasses but maybe something more. =)

    4. Chriama*

      Just tell them — better schedule for the same hours/pay. Leave them to draw their own conclusions (or not). A good manager will want to keep good workers and will investigate, a bad one won’t investigate but they won’t feel personally slighted.

    5. Celeste*

      I would say, it’s a better schedule for my life and I need that right now with my kids. That way, it’s about you and not about OldJob.

  15. a.n.o.n.*

    I finally have some news about my situation.

    I mentioned last week that someone I ran into at a seminar emailed the CEO of the company I’m pursuing and told him I’m awesome and he should hire me. Weeks earlier I said that the CEO told me he couldn’t hire me right away, but we would talk in a couple months. Well, I didn’t have to call him. He called ME! He left a voicemail saying he didn’t have any further updates, but to definitely keep in touch and hopes I’m doing well. I plan to call him back today. It’s a relief to know that he doesn’t hold the two prior rejections against me and doesn’t think I’m flaky.

    I finally broke down and told my current boss how I’m feeling about the job. I got the perfect opening because she wanted to give me my three-month review. She asked how things are going and I was 100% honest. I told her how, after my prior company went out of business, I thought I knew what I wanted and didn’t realize until I got here that I didn’t want to go this direction. I explained the emotional toll it’s taken on me to have chosen the wrong path. Told her how terrible I felt that this happened and that I was totally convinced I wanted this job. She was actually very understanding and started talking about ways we can incorporate the things I want to be doing in order to make a better fit. She felt I was having a reaction to the fact that I’ve been doing the job of someone else the whole time (we just finally hired someone for that job!), but I told her that the main part of the job I was actually hired to do gives me pause. I told her the best I could say right now is that I’m not actively looking for a job, I haven’t called the CEO of the other company back yet (yes, I told her the WHOLE saga), and I’m in the middle of buying a house so I have no intention of going anywhere at least for a couple months. That will give me a chance to see how things work out here.

    Many people told me not to say anything to my boss, but when faced with the direct question, I couldn’t lie. I really respect her and I didn’t want to lead her on. As a former manager, I would want to know if my employee felt the job wasn’t a fit and might leave. And I told her that. I told her I didn’t want to blindside her by giving two weeks’ notice. She was happy I told her.

    In other news…we got the house we bid on! So, I’m moving. As long as the inspection doesn’t turn up anything too big. I’m so happy! My husband and I both feel it’s “the one.” There’s lots of room for family, and a beautiful, spacious property for family picnics and such.

    This might sound corny, but I firmly believe that good things happen when you do the things you’re supposed to do and do them right. Meaning, I feel that if I lied to my boss yesterday and didn’t come clean, I might have lost the bid on the house. Karma, I guess.

    I also believe that things happen in the order they’re supposed to happen. The CEO of the other company isn’t ready yet, so that gives me time to close on my mortgage and get moved. It also gives me a little time to see if I can turn the situation at this company around.

    1. Mimmy*

      Sounds like you have an awesome boss! In my opinion, the best managers are those who make it safe to have those kinds of honest conversations. Sure, sometimes they can be tough conversations, but it is such a relief when it’s off your chest.

      1. a.n.o.n.*

        Yeah I told her I feel much better, but I figured she didn’t. We had a few laughs about it. She said we’ll try to rearrange things and make it more palatable. Then we’ll see if I “hate it as much.” She wants me to keep an open dialogue with her. She was a total pro about it. I’m so glad I said something. I’m sure some people know how awful it is, and the emotional toll it takes, when you pick the wrong job. It’s so exhausting and emotionally draining.

  16. BCW*

    I posted this in a thread earlier this week, but it seemed to have died by then. There have been quite a few questions this week dealing with the comfort level of one person (or even a few) vs what others want to do. Namely the speedo, the bobblehead, and the music. What I was wondering is what is the cutoff percentage (for lack of a better term) to where the people in the minority need to just suck it up and deal with it something because in the situation it is socially acceptable to the majority? In all of the examples I mentioned, most people in the office seemed ok with something, and one person wanted a change. In my opinion, the one person kind of just needs to deal, assuming its not blatantly offensive to the average person or a medical issue (ie if everyone loves peanuts, if one person is severely allergic then that trumps everyone’s love). But where do people think the line is? I get if its 50/50 then the behavior/issue should stop because half of the people have a problem. But to me, if 60% of the people are fine with something (again not like racist/sexist behavior or something) then they should be allowed, such as the music issue where 2/3 of the people wanted their music and 1 didn’t. Thoughts?

      1. MJ*

        I would say company’s interest rules. Obviously, having happy employees is in the company’s interest, so having a majority in favor of something is a consideration. But it doesn’t trump. An employer also has to consider productivity, direct or indirect costs, whether the customer is affected, which decision is likely to cause the most turmoil, relevant research on determinants of a healthy work environment, business norms vs what is being asked…

        In group decisions, it is often best to aim for consensus rather than democracy or unanimity or some contrived compromise. In consensus, you look for the solution that everyone can live with. It won’t be everyone’s preference. Occasionally it even means an extreme minority (as on one person) may “win” because the issue is something they feel SO strongly about.

        1. BCW*

          Yeah, but even that, if one person is just louder and better at arguing, I don’t know that it automatically means they should “win”.

          1. MJ*

            Not saying they would “win” because they are louder or better at arguing. They might “win” because they feel very strongly about something that others feel moderately about. For example, if the majority of the office thought that adopting a cat was a great idea, the rest of the staff had no opinion and one person felt strongly that having a cat padding through his cubicle would be completely unsettling to him, that person might “win.” Maybe the majority would like to festoon the office with Christmas decorations and one person feels strongly that they do not want to work amidst tinsel and flashing trees for reasons that may have nothing to do with personal religious beliefs. Echoing a conversation from AAM a couple weeks ago, the majority might like to work in the dark, but one person might have serious non-health-related objections to this.

    2. Stephanie*

      I’d say majority rules or if it’s a pervasive cultural thing (like in the case of the music).

    3. Betsy*

      This isn’t relevant to all of the cases, but is to some: in my opinion, there’s a distinction between what my son’s school calls “have to’s” and “want to’s”. Regardless of the proportions, if everyone on one side is a “want to” and there are any “have to” people on the other side, the “have to” people should win.

      So in the case of the music: music is pleasant for some people to have, and they want it because it’s nice. But if it’s making it impossible for another person to do his job correctly, then he is a “have to”, and his needs should trump their desires. The case with the lights on/off people is similar. If 99 out of 100 employees want the lights off because it makes the office more relaxing, but that one other person needs lights on because otherwise they can’t see the papers they’re processing, then that need trumps the desires.

      I would include in that category of “have to” a person’s need to feel safe at work, so issues like overt racism or sexism would also fall in that box. You cannot do your job appropriately if you’re constantly feeling attacked and degraded by the environment you’re in.

      Again, this only applies in cases where there aren’t conflicting needs. And if the issue is only about desire on both sides, with no safety, legal, or personal need issues, then I’d say majority probably can and should rule.

      1. BCW*

        But even in the case of the music, I wouldn’t call that a have to for anyone. Some people work better with music, others work better without. I hate total silence, some people hate any noise. So neither is a must, thats why I think majority should rule.

        1. Betsy*

          If people have to be on the phone taking customer calls, I would say that is a need to. I don’t think it was a need to in the case of the temp who just didn’t like it.

    4. fposte*

      I think it’s case by case and office by office; I suspect any rule I’d come up with I’d then be able to think of an exception to.

    5. Del*

      I think it’s a lot more complicated than just “how many people want this?” There are also concerns like what’s the overall impact between the two sides — something like what Betsy said above about “have to” versus “want to.”

      Additionally, I think the right response in most situations should always start with “is there a way to accommodate everyone’s comfort?” As with the music question, why aren’t the people who want music wearing headphones? I feel like unless the issue is truly extremely trivial, immediately defaulting to “suck it up” is a pretty terrible attitude. With the lights on/lights off debate, people pointed out that cubicle shades and cube-mounted lights are both solutions that don’t require one side or the other to just deal with the situation and be uncomfortable.

    6. Betsy*

      New post on the same comment, because I had another thought. When you’re saying “majority rules”, make sure it’s really actively something the majority wants, as opposed to something the majority isn’t objecting to aloud.

      There’s a phenomenon where a group consensus often comes to something no one actually wants, called the Abilene Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox)

      In it, everyone assumes that what they want is not the majority opinion, so they sit back and don’t say anything. One or two voices end up being accepted as the majority, even when they’re not.

    7. Chriama*

      I honestly don’t believe that you can assign a numerical value to this. It really depends on the relationship between the people, the impact on the business (general ick factor of the speedo vs. a real productivity decline due to the music) and other factors.

    8. Joey*

      I don’t think there is a clear line. So much of it depends on the strategy you use to try to get what you want. Its a game of persuasion. If you’re good at it the line moves in your favor.

    9. BCW*

      Interesting comments. I know the “suck it up” line is a bit harsh, but I really think at some point if the majority is in favor or even indifferent to something, at some point shouldn’t the vocal minority just realize that this is the “culture” of where they are and take it or leave it? Again, I fully admit there are certain factors (medical, discrimination, and the like) that make it a very important issue. But many of these, such as being mentally grossed out by a speedo or saying that you can’t work if there is any noise, really comes down to just preferences. If your preference doesn’t fall in line with the preference of most people where you are… then you are kind of SOL in my opinion.

    10. Sydney*

      Betsy’s “have to’s” and “want to’s” sum it up pretty good when the wants vs. needs are clear. Like in the case of a severe peanut allergy, one person could cause a no-peanuts rule.

      When it’s more subjective like the music or lights, I’d say it could be as split as 51/49 majority rules. I’m trying to imagine a scenario that could be this divided that wouldn’t have some sort of exception, but I’m falling short.

  17. Laufey*

    When do most people know what sort of vacation time they can take at holidays?

    I know it’s not my company’s fault that my family lives several states away and it’s not my company’s fault that plane ticket prices are rising so rapidly, but I need to know what days I can take off before I can buy tickets. I want to know what’s reasonable before I shift from “casually asking in passing” to “it’s reasonable to know by now in the world outside this firm”.

    1. John*

      I think the best strategy is to put in for it early. Just ask. Obviously, it works differently at different companies, and seniority can play a role. But, at the very least, putting in your request might force the issue.

      In making the request, I would state that you will need to book your travel ahead of time. Also, if it’s true, point out other holiday times that you are willing to cover so your colleagues can be with their families (the day after Thanksgiving and days around New Year’s) so you show that you want to be a team player.

      1. Laufey*

        Generally we don’t have issues finding coverage, and I have already offered to work several holidays. I have put in for the time I want, but management keeps not approving it. Most people at this company are local, so they have generally aren’t concerned with buying tickets, booking hotel rooms, etc.

        1. Chriama*

          Have a conversation with your manager about how you’d like more advance notice on vacation approvals because of the travel arrangements you have to make, and you’d like to know if they can work with you. Mention that your last few requests have been rejected, and explain the timeline that you usually have to work with when planning travel.

          You’re in a different situation from most people, and while they aren’t obligated to accommodate you, it’s a nice thing to do (and nice companies retain more loyal employees).

        2. John*

          Have you clearly stated that you need to pull the trigger on plane tickets and that you’re worried that you won’t be able to go because you will get priced out?

        3. AVP*

          Agree with the above – I would try to have a slightly bigger-picture conversation with your manager about when he thinks he might be able to approve your request, or if there’s anything particular standing in the way of getting approval (and when he thinks that might clear up).

          I know when my direct reports ask me about vacation time that’s more than a month away, I often can’t approve it because I need to wait and see what projects we have coming in that particular week. Of course, if it’s a major holiday it’s different, but it depends on the company.

          Either way you should get some clarity – and then at least you’ll be able to make a decision about buying tickets or waiting and sucking up the higher fees!

    2. Traveler*

      I don’t know that there’s a standard. It’s been different between companies, and between branches within companies. Sometimes its a seniority thing (we are waiting on Director, Manager, etc. to pick before we can tell you when you can) and sometimes its a we don’t know what the projects will be until 3 months out, so we can’t let you know, and other places just block out the entire holiday season for work for people to take off.

    3. Del*

      I’m in the same situation, and what I’ve usually done has been to put in my request as early as possible, and then at some point have a conversation with my manager where I point out that I need to book plane tickets while they’re not exorbitantly expensive, would there be any way to get an early confirmation on my holiday request? A lot of times they have been very reasonable about this.

      Typically, I’ll get my Thanksgiving/Christmas request in by March or April, and unless told otherwise I expect to know by midsummer whether I’ve been approved or not.

      1. Ali*

        I always put in for vacation as soon as I know the dates. I am taking a few days off in August and they are already in the request doc.

        I wish I could call off early for holidays, but my family never knows plans until late in the holiday season and/or they tend to spring last-minute surprises on us. (Example: announcement of a gathering three days before it’s scheduled to take place, and by then, everyone has made plans and can’t necessarily be there.)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I HATE that–my family does it too. A week before, I’m asking people, “Are you going?” I usually don’t go for Thanksgiving unless everyone is coming. Otherwise, it’s a four-day weekend with my parents. 0_0

          0_0

          0_0

          >_<

    5. SevenSixOne*

      Your employee handbook may explicitly spell this out– mine says employees must give their direct supervisor at least 48 hours notice for a single day, at least 2 weeks for 2-7 days, and at least 30 days plus approval from the department head for more than 7 days. I think that’s reasonable if your firm doesn’t have anything in writing.

      BUT! I think there’s such a thing as too much notice, too. One employee at OldJob claimed the entire week of Thanksgiving every January, and something about that really rubbed me the wrong way.

  19. Rebecca*

    How do your companies handle smokers and their breaks? There are a lot of bad feelings in our office regarding the people who smoke and the number and length of smoke breaks they take.

    The smokers go out every hour or hour and a half and smoke, usually in a group. The rest of us work and take our 2 assigned 15 minute breaks, plus 30 minute unpaid lunch break each day (it’s an 8 hour work day, sometimes overtime). We are all hourly workers.

    So, it’s start work at 8 AM, smoking at 8:45 or 9, 10, 11, 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, you get the picture. It really adds up. They also take time to eat lunch.

    Our manager is of the mindset that the smokers need to go outside to smoke to calm their nerves. The rest of us are expected to be at our desks, working, and take only our assigned breaks.

    Has anyone else run into this, and how was it handled?

    1. BCW*

      I haven’t dealt with that in a professional setting, only back in the high school days. In my jobs where people smoke, no one was really monitoring your breaks. I’d go out with the smokers sometimes if I wanted to get away. However, I don’t think its fair if they are saying non smokers can’t do those same things.

      1. Rebecca*

        I don’t smoke. My feeling is if I’m supposed to take my 15 minute break mid morning, lunch break at noon, and 15 minutes mid afternoon, then the people who smoke should be held to that standard as well.

        I’m bringing this up because our manager just lectured us on time wasting, and told us if we were honest with ourselves, we could identify 15-30 minutes per day that we were wasting and not working. That was stunning to me, in light of what goes on every day that she doesn’t address.

        1. Mike C.*

          Did you tell your manager that this discussion was taking up those 15-30 minutes?

          2. Aunt Vixen*

            Right? No fooling, I once had a medium-term temp job where the manager called us all in for a meeting in which he spent 45 minutes complaining about how productivity was down. Everyone else was long-term temp-to-hire (there may have been one other short-timer there besides me), so I had the least to lose by being the one to finally raise my hand and say “In that case, wouldn’t it be better if we got back to work?”

        2. Katie the Fed*

          I think I read once that in an average 8-hour work day, most people only get about 5 hours of work done. That sounds about right to me.

    2. Anne 3*

      The company where I interned handled it the same as yours – badly. They’re just creating resentment amongst the non-smokers.

      My current company uses a badging system for the building, so people who go outside to smoke aren’t paid to smoke, and there’s no problem. I also don’t think they’d mind if someone just went outside for 5 minutes to clear their head and not smoke.

    3. Jen RO*

      You manager sucks :) In my company, breaks are not timed, as long as you’re getting the job done. Non-smokers often go out with the smokers, just to get some (smokey) air or clear their heads.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      That is WAY too often in my opinion. They should get no more than two breaks.

    5. GigglyPuff*

      That always kind of annoyed me at my old job, most of the people there were smokers, including the manager, so they would frequently go outside and smoke, and oftentimes together. When I took my breaks I would always read for a few minutes in the break room, and keep a very good eye on the clock, but the break room was situated so it got some high traffic to reach another part of the building, so whenever my manager or another employee would come by, I always felt like I was slacking off. Or my manager would ask me to do something, like I was just sitting there like a lump.

    6. Jennifer*

      At OldJob where we were in a similar hourly situation, you were not allowed extra break time for smoking. You got your two breaks and your lunch and that’s it. At first, smokers were allowed to take a break, but once someone really looked at how much time they were taking, it was stopped. Luckily BigBoss was a fair person and stopped rewarding them for taking off what added up to be a day per month each. We had a badge controlled area, so it was easier to provide proof of the time used up. I heard that there was one guy who tried to get around it, but was fired when he was caught. At NextJob, smoking wasn’t allowed on the campus at all.

    7. abankyteller*

      I’ve never been a smoker but I once worked in a hospital kitchen that had a lot of smokers. We had to sign a sheet to leave the building for breaks. Probably 3 times a day we ALL went outside and the smokers smoked. This was in addition to regular lunches and breaks we all took together. It was so awesome.

      I your situation I’d want to passive aggressively Institute Fresh Air Breaks for non smokers. I wouldn’t do it but I’d dream about it.

      1. kbeers0su*

        I once had a summer job where the non-smokers did exactly this. Then the company/campus went smoke-free and all the smokers quit/moved on.

    8. AAA*

      Wow! Those are a lot of breaks!
      If I were you I would take a break for an equal amount of time to “calm my nerves” every time a smoker is taking a break. I’d call it my smoke break, even if I wasn’t smoking. If you got all of the non-smokers in the office to do this I bet management would get the picture pretty quickly that it’s an unfair practice to give some nicotine-addicted people more breaks than others.

    9. Muriel Heslop*

      My company is very anti-smoking and does not allow it on company grounds. People have to cross a busy street or leave campus to smoke so it cuts down on breaks and diminishes committed smokers as employees.

      1. cuppa*

        My husband has the same situation, but he said he hates it even more, because the smokers still go, but they take an even longer time now.

    10. chewbecca*

      I feel you on this. I sit at the front desk with the elevators, and we had one employee who seemed to be the ringleader of hourly smoke breaks. She was an unpleasant person all around (one of the “look at meeeeee!” people who was always complaining about how busy she was). I did the math one time and realized that 8 smoke breaks a day @ 15 minutes each time worked out to be 2 hours out of the day she spent away from her desk, on top of her hourly or longer lunch breaks.

      She’s luckily no longer here and I’ve noticed that the rest of the smokers have cut way back on their frequency.

    11. Apollo Warbucks*

      In my office no one is supposed to be clearing off in work time to smoke. There’s an hour for lunch and if anyone needs a smoke break during the day they are expected to take a shorter lunch break.

    12. some1*

      I’m a smoker and I think this is ridiculous. But then, I’ve never needed company to smoke, so I I take less time.

    13. JaneJ*

      Don’t think it should be about nerves, or adding up time, or any of it. It sounds like you’re all hourly workers on the same team. Is that correct? If so, as long as the work is being split fairly (meaning the smokers and non-smokers are held to the same production quotas and standards) and it’s all getting done within the requisite time, then who really cares about the breaks?

      It seems to me that managers should hold everyone to standard using the one thing they all have in common: production. If everyone feels like the work load is fair, then they shouldn’t care about what other people are doing in their down time.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      At Nonprofit job, everyone always took smoke breaks all at the same time so we could gossip. ;) The advantage was we did it at the same times every day, so everyone knew where to find us if they needed us.

      Disclaimer: I don’t smoke anymore, not since about 2008 or so.

      1. cuppa*

        I don’t smoke, but at one job, they allowed one smoke break in the morning and one in the afternoon. Everyone took a “smoke break”, whether they smoked or not. Others would get coffee, gossip, etc. Essentially, they could have just taken the ‘smoke’ part out of the break term.

    15. Anon1309*

      I have a pack of cigarettes in my bag.

      Whenever I need a break, I light one and just hold it while it burns. I also practiced some smokers talk (“I really want to quit, but I’m on a diet and can’t handle both right now”).

      No one ever notices that I don’t actually smoke my cigarette :)

      1. Butt in Chair*

        I did this at my first job! I was the only person there who didn’t smoke, and I resented the hell out of my co-workers for getting to take a break every hour or so when I didn’t, so I started taking “smoke fakes”.

    16. Grey*

      It makes me feel old to remember the days when I could just light up right there at my desk and no one cared.

      And I’m only 44.

      I really need to quit. I won’t even smoke in my house anymore. The smoke just turns everything yellow and nasty after a while.

      How many other smokers felt the need to go out and have one after reading this topic?

  20. Eric*

    Advice on feeling bad at your job (impostor syndrome? I’m not sure)

    I’ve been with my company for 3.5 years. The first 3 years I was in a position where I feel like I did good work, excelled, and was generally respected in my department. I took a promotion 6 months ago, and after a big screw-up in January and a couple little ones, I constantly feel terrible at my job and every time I talk to someone in my department they seem very dismissive of me.

    It’s probably all in my head but it doesn’t make it any easier to deal with. A good part of this job is marketing I’ve discovered, and I don’t like marketing and I’m not good at it. I don’t know many people outside of my department and constantly feel like I don’t know why I’ve involved in meetings. And communication in my company is pretty bad and people make decisions for my program without telling me.

    Basically, I feel like I’m drowning. I don’t want to give up on this job just yet, because I’m not sure if 6 months is enough time to truly know if this is right for me, even if it was an internal promotion and not a new job at a new company, but I don’t know how to get out of this. My boss and I have a pretty good relationship, I’ve thought about bringing up some of my concerns with her, but… I don’t know.

    Any thoughts are appreciated.

    1. money lady*

      I think you should talk to your boss. You may not be doing as badly as you think and she may be able to help you get through this phase.

    2. Jen RO*

      I think you should talk to your boss, but don’t break down in front of him. Do you have formal reviews? If not, maybe you can suggest an informal performance review, since you’ve been there 6 months?

      1. Eric*

        I was thinking that. We’re not due to have performance evaluations until July-August, and 6 months is a good “excuse” to ask for an informal one.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think six months to a year is pretty normal. My current job I spent the first few months saying “I will never, ever get this.” About month number 5 I thought “hey, I am getting this.” Month 6 the wheels fell off and I was back to “I will never, ever get this.”
      What saved me is people in other locations with the same job said, “What you describe here is totally normal for our work. You’re on track keep going.”

      If you don’t want to talk to your boss immediately, find someone you will talk to. Don’t allow yourself to go through this alone.

      I’ve been at the job for almost a year and a half. I have grown used to not knowing what I am doing because I now see that is inherent in the work. My boss is hugely helpful in keeping me going forward-she’s very supportive.

      1. C Average*

        Cosigned. Even 2+ years into my current role, I on occasion feel incompetent. Hearing from my peers that they, too, struggle on occasion is really reassuring. When we share these areas where we lack confidence, we can reassure each other, ask questions freely, and get better at what we’re doing.

    4. Jules*

      Try listing out the competency needed for the job and tick off the ones you have. Try finding training for the remaining competencies. Everyone need some soft skill as well as technical skill training every once in a while. If your company has internal training program, leverage on them.

  22. Jen RO*

    I was stalking the open thread too, hoping it gets posted before I leave work.

    Sooo I start my new-old job next week. (I quit a couple of months ago and now I’m going back – with a title bump and on a different team.) I wasn’t crazy about working with my new team’s leader, but I very recently found out that it won’t be a “problem” for much longer, since everyone in their location is getting laid off. Yikes! I feel bad now – I will be (re)joining the company a few days after the layoff announcement, and the laid-off coworkers will have to train me… I can’t imagine how much that must suck.

    On the other hand, from a professional point of view it will be a good thing for me – I will get to guide the new joiners in my location and I will get to be involved in a lot more (I will probably need to implement the processes we had in my old team, and I kinda missed that!).

    And yet.. they must know they are getting laid off partly because of us – we are in a country with lower salaries and we are less experienced, so we are way cheaper… I feel a bit guilty. I know it’s not my fault and the big evil corporation would have hired someone else, but still.

    In happier news, if anyone remembers my cats (a few months ago I needed advice about introducing my adult tomcat and my new kitten), they are getting along great now! I don’t think they’ll ever be BFFs,but they play all the time and they are never aggressive towards each other or towards me! (I was the older cat’s preferred victim before I got him a play buddy.)

    1. EvilQueenRegina*

      Good luck with the new job!

      I went through something similar recently with the guilt over people being laid off – my predecessor was also being laid off and had to train me (he did find a better job in the end, but didn’t know that at the time) and I did feel really horrible about it, I didn’t feel there was a way to bring it up so didn’t.

      I tried to tell myself the same thing at the time, that I didn’t create the situation and it wasn’t my fault, and whatever the reasons for the redundancies in each individual case (which I didn’t want to know) they were nothing to do with me. But I did find it easier to look at that way when the only person I knew personally who was being made redundant was someone with performance issues and was also my “bitch eating crackers” as per someone’s post below. The more I got to know and like the people on my new team who were being made redundant, the worse I felt about it and it only really went away when my predecessor got his new job and another woman I’d spent some time with got extended by another six months.

      I don’t know why I never asked for tips about survivor’s guilt on an open thread here at the time, actually. maybe because I tend to get to them late and it would have got lost.

      It probably didn’t help that one of the managers had publicly blurted out something about how she’d got one person on her team who was being made redundant, had to train someone who wasn’t being made redundant and really wasn’t happy about it. She’d let enough slip that I knew who she was talking about, (she didn’t name the person but it was possible to work out) and although I knew it wasn’t my predecessor (not being a woman managed by that manager, he didn’t fit the description) it did reinforce the idea in my mind that he might feel the same way as that person.

  23. Calla*

    I just have to vent! Someone just sent an extremely rude email (“you need to find time IMMEDIATELY”) to me because they want two people I support on an email either today or Monday, and it’s currently scheduled for later next week. This is important, sure, but it’s not an emergency, and these two people are doctors (so they’re only in our office half the time, the other half they’re at their respective clinics) AND one is currently out of state and the other is OVERSEAS. I am livid that she is essentially yelling at me via email (with other people copied!) because I can’t physically force these guys to get on a call at like 5am in the morning or 11pm at night for something they don’t think is an emergency.

    1. IndieGir*

      How rude. And the fact that the two folks are doctors makes it even ruder. She must know that their schedules are probably 1) insane and 2) incompatible — when one is free, the other is probably busy.

      I’d say keep your cool and just lay out the facts for her. Don’t worry about her copying in other people. It is always the person who uses CAPS that looks like an idiot in these situations!

      1. Calla*

        Yes, exactly — their clinic schedules don’t match up, so even during a time when they’re not traveling (like they both are right now), they are only in the office at the same time on two days of the week!

        I am letting one of my bosses handle it though. He wasn’t happy with her tone either, ha!

    2. Anonsie*

      Oh lord. I support a group of physicians and we occasionally get these people who are just sure that if they ask me enough times, suddenly a new spot will open up for them.

      I’ll tell them that each doc gets two days a month booked for admin time and all of every other day of the month is OR or clinic and not available. I’ll tell them the open times and let them know that’s all they’ll have for the next month, two months, whatever. But they’ll repeatedly ask me for other time. “Oh no no, not those days. What about this day at 10:30am?” They will be with patients on that day and every other day that isn’t on the list I gave you. “Well that doesn’t work for me. What about the afternoon the day before?” NO.

      1. Calla*

        Yeah, this didn’t do that because she had someone else asking for times, so she just went off when she saw it wasn’t scheduled soon enough for her, but I’ve had people do that before too!

        One guy I had that exact conversation with– “Can Dr. X go on this trip with me?” “Well, he’s going to be at clinic at that time.” “Can he move it?” “I don’t manage his clinic schedule, you’d have to ask him, but he’s going to be seeing patients at that time.” “What about [other day I said he had clinic].” Me internally: “WHAT DON’T YOU GET about ‘no, he’s seeing patients and your last-minute trip isn’t more important than him seeing patients’??”

    3. Sadsack*

      Forward her email to them and copy her with a simple note to the doctors: “Please see below.” They can see it first hand.

      1. Calla*

        They were copied on the email and fortunately one sent a nice stern reply back!

  24. Lily in NYC*

    So, I just started screening resumes for two open positions in our most competitive dept. I received a cover letter written in the third person. It looked like the dude just cut and pasted his bio. To me, that’s enough to put him in the “no” pile (he resume wasn’t good enough anyway). But what if he had a great resume and a third person cover letter? Would you still consider the candidate? I’m really picky when I screen – something as minor as an extra space on your resume or cover letter will get you put in the no pile. We cannot have people here who aren’t detail-oriented.

    1. IndieGir*

      A cover letter in third-party form is weird, but if the resume were great I’d give it a pass.

      In terms of the rest of your thoughts, are you a design firm? If not, I think you are probably missing out on a lot of great people by being so picky. Some folks are not great at design and won’t even be able to see an extra space on the resume, and it doesn’t mean they are not detail-oriented. I hired a guy who is super at programming but lousy at design, and everything he lays out looks like crap. But that’s OK, because he has brilliant creative solutions to programming problems.

      Of course if design is part of the job, then yes, you are right to be picky about extra spaces, etc.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        No, it’s high-level strategic planning for the the Mayor. We don’t mess around. If an employee goes to City Hall with a typo on a powerpoint, it’s a Very Bad Thing. One tiny math mistake can really cause problems. My boss is awesome but very demanding of his staff. Someone was 10 minutes late for her interview last week and didn’t apologize or explain – my boss refused to interview her and sent her on her way. We get hundreds of resumes from highly qualified candidates, so it’s yet another weeding tool.

        1. IndieGir*

          Well, a typo is much different than an extra space. On is barely visible to normal people, the other is an actual error. And being late for an interview without an excuse is also an actual error (as well as rude).

          But if you feel that your department is that desirable a place to work for, then you have your answer already, don’t you?

          2. Lily in NYC*

            You seem annoyed with me for some reason unless I am reading that last sentence incorrectly. I wasn’t asking for advice about typos. Just about the cover letter. I wrote back about the extra space because you asked about it.

            1. IndieGir*

              Not annoyed — just wondering why you asked. Your first post seemed to be asking “Am I too picky?” and your response seemed to be saying “We have valid reasons to be very picky.” So, if you have folks beating down your door and valid reasons to be very picky, you can and probably should be picky.

              Sorry if I sounded annoyed, that’s one of the challenges of communicating in writing. I will admit, I did find the part about the extra spaces a bit over-picky and off-putting, which is why I responded to it. Had you said typos to start with, it would have made more sense to me.

              1. Lily in NYC*

                Well, to be honest, I wrote that because it was the last resume I screened before I came to this thread and it was in my brain. She had 5 different places with extra spaces and it stood out to me. I probably wouldn’t have even noticed if it had just been one and now that I think about it I’m not as nit-picky as I seem. For example, I’ll sometimes fix margins for people if they look off or if there’s a page break in a weird spot (because I can’t tell if it’s their fault or the despised Taleo’s). At least I haven’t seen any ALL CAPS cover letters this time.

                1. IndieGir*

                  Yeah, if it was in five different places, then I’d find it annoying too!

                  And wow — cover letters in all caps, that’s just nuts.

                2. Onymouse*

                  Is it random or was there a pattern to it? I’m told there’s a certain (relatively old-school) convention to always double-space after each sentence.

                3. Lily in NYC*

                  Onymouse, there’s no “reply” under your comment so I don’t know if you will see this. It was random – like a word, then a space, then a comma. Definitely spaces that should not be there. I don’t think twice about two spaces after a period because a lot of people here still write in that manner.

    2. MJ*

      I usually make an “on hold” pile. If I don’t get enough resumes in the “interesting” pile, I will go back and look at the “on hold” pile.

      I have also asked people to re-write their cover letters before, so that’s an option. I told them that I needed an additional sample of their writing and that while their original cover letter was fine, I would like them to submit a new cover letter that did XYZ so that their resume would not get lost in a pile of applications which had more “personable” (choose your own adjective here) cover letters.

    3. Bryan*

      Depending on the position, if the resume was great I’d move him to a phone screen.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Maaaaaaaybe I’d consider him if his resume was really a standout. Otherwise, what? No. That’s weird. That’s not how cover letters work. If he doesn’t know that (or doesn’t care), I don’t trust the rest of what he knows/believes/does/etc.

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        Hey Lily, I’m with you on the spacing – I see it quite a lot at work reading reports. And also a full stop and the next sentence without a gap at all is common.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          Hi Carrie, It surprised me to see it on the resume earlier today because she sent it in Word, which marked them as mistakes with that squiggly red line we all know and love. I think that’s part of the reason I considered it a red flag.

          1. Carrie in Scotland*

            I’m now so attuned to trying to spot spaces (unlike Word, the system I read reports on has no such wiggly line) I now automatically look for them without realising.

    5. Jill-be-Nimble*

      Oh, man! I had a cover letter that’s too good (read: bad) not to share. An acquaintance really wanted to apply for my company and there was an entry-level temp communications job that I thought she might be interested in. She sent me a cover letter for review. It was filled with typos and improperly used punctuation, including in the line that talked about her “great attention to detail.” The kicker? It started,

      “Dear Public Relations Hiring Guru,” and immediately said “Jil-be-Nimble [name misspelled], a contractor for your [division I contract for at a different company] recommended me for this job…”

      I couldn’t back away from that letter fast enough. It was really hard because I knew that she didn’t have a chance at the job and felt bad for her, but I also didn’t want to be associated as someone recommending her since she had such poor skills. But I also didn’t want to correct her cover letter so much that it seemed like she knew what she was doing, and then got an interview because I “recommended” her!

      (I ended up correcting her biggest mistakes, gave her some general pointers on writing better cover letters, and asked her not to drop my name because I didn’t know anyone in the department and it wouldn’t help–also saying that I couldn’t recommend her because I don’t know her work well enough.)

  25. badger_doc*

    Anyone else in the situation where you live on one city and your significant other lives in another city 2 hours away? We both just started our jobs within the last year/year and a half, so neither one of us can really leave without really good reason. We see eachother every weekend so far but the time in between just sucks, especially since we lived together briefly before his job change. I would like to stay at my job because I love it, and would like to at LEAST commit 3 years to it. I’m looking for advice on how to make both our relationship and careers work under this living situation. He is THE ONE. :-) We are serious about eachother and have talked marriage, so giving up on our relationship is not an option in my mind. Thanks all!

    1. matcha123*

      Well, my boyfriend moved to Tokyo to work and I’m 4-5 hours away. I haven’t seen him for close to a year :p

      Personally, I’d say that every other weekend is great! If you guys plan something fun and of course continue to talk/chat in between, it’ll give you something to look forward to.

      Maybe because I’m in Japan, but here it’s really common for the husband to move overseas for an undetermined amount of time and leave his family in Japan for years!

      If you guys talk about your goals, make concrete plans to meet (and keep them!) I think that you’ll be able to make things work out :)

    2. LMW*

      I did something like that for a while (It didn’t work out for various reasons unrelated to the distance). In addition to weekends, we’d often pick a place in the middle one night a week and meet for dinner. We got to know the teeny tiny old school diners in that area pretty well, but at least we got to spend time together.
      We also used it as a chance to get all the errand-y type stuff done during the week and hang out with friends, do volunteer work, spend out quiet alone time etc. during the week, so when the weekend hit, we were ready to focus on each other.

    3. Kelly L.*

      I did this for about 4 years. It does suck, but we eventually did end up in the same city (yay)! I think one of the most important things we did was make time to talk every day, even if there wasn’t anything all that interesting to “report”–it helped us feel connected. Use technology–we texted a TON, just random little asides throughout the day. We emailed, sent silly songs on Grooveshark. And if there’s an issue in the relationship, talk about it before it’s a BIG issue, which I learned from a different LDR years ago.

    4. Bryan*

      Can you live in between? I know an hour commute each way can be brutal and if there’s traffic it could be worse.

        1. Aunt Vixen*

          Houses aren’t prisons. Uncle Vixen owns a house, but when we were ready to move in together, we realized his place wouldn’t work for both of us – but he doesn’t want to sell it. We rent a place together and he rents his house out. It is possible to live somewhere other than in the house you own, if you decide that’s what you want.

    5. Chriama*

      1. Determine your priorities between work or the relationship. What are you willing to give up in one area order to make the other area work?

      2. Have a conversation with him about where your relationship is going. Include what your priorities are and ask him to think about what his are.

      3. Brainstorm together and explore all your options. Obviously 1 or both of you will have to move. When will that happen? Research your options (e.g. get transferred to a different office, start networking in a different city, start looking for a house/apartment). Make a plan!

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Geez, with my LDR, we only saw each other every three MONTHS. Every other weekend would have been great! (We did talk almost every day)

      Though it probably would have ended quicker, which might have been a good thing in the long run. :P

    7. The IT Manager*

      Because of my previous job I did a number of LD relationships. Two suggestions: 1) call everyday to chat and keep up on the day to day of each other’s lives as if you saw each other every day. 2) Set an end date to the LD (and maybe a destination if one you is totally set on your home city). After another year and a half when you both have 3 years at your jobs for example, you each start job hunting in the others town. Whoever gets a good job first moves to be near the other.

    1. Lamington*

      I have a good one. Antonio Banderas’ luggage was lost and my friend deliver it to his hotel once they found it with a fruit basket.

      1. samaD*

        I have this wonderful image of his luggage trying to have a quiet weekend with a fruit basket in a private little hideaway :D

    2. Jen RO*

      Mine is very tame – last week Austrian Airlines sent a smaller plane (instead of 2 rows with 3 seats each, it had one row with 3 seats and one row with 2 seats), so I was stuck on standby. I didn’t even know that could happen! They did find me a seat in the end, but now I’m feeling a bit sorry I didn’t take the 250 euros to leave the next day.

    3. Annie O*

      I posted mine yesterday, so I won’t repost it. But I would be interested in hearing how folks worked towards a resolution with the airline. What worked? What didn’t? Any special tips?

      1. AVP*

        Okay, so I manage a LOT of travel, much of which gets booked last-minute and is on all different airlines. Here are my tips.

        1) Book directly with the airline, not with a discount site. Often the prices are not that different, if you start out by searching on Kayak, and it saves a lot of headaches if you need to change or fix something later. (Hotels.com is an exception to this rule, they’re pretty good.)

        2) If you have a problem, get someone from the airline on the phone. The people at the ticket counter have less information than the people on the customer service phone lines, as they usually have shitty internet and their computers are not updated as often.

        3) Be NICE to the people you talk to. As the ‘Sins’ discussion pointed out, the people you speak with have a lot of power over how things go for you. If you treat them well, as professionals, you’ll end up in a better situation than if you’re irrationally yelling.

        4) That said, know when to hold and when to fold. Is it a giant emergency if you get stuck for a day, or will it be okay? Proceed accordingly, and make a rational argument to the representative based on that. For example, I’ve said things like, “you know, I really need to have this sorted out right away because we’re an event team producing a $200K event that starts tomorrow so all of that will literally go down the drain if we can’t get there in time.” Or, “You know, this is my honeymoon and we’re going to miss the cruise boat if we can’t fly out some time tonight.” Conversely, if it’s not a big deal, don’t try to make it into one. “I don’t feel like standing here anymore,” is not a great reason for someone to go out of their way to fix you, or bump other people so you ca get on the flight instead of them.

        1. AVP*

          One more thing – being flexible will buy you a lot of patience and good will, and will get you better results. Instead of castigating the people who lost your luggage, if you can suggest a few alternatives, you give them something to work with and react to.

        2. CC*

          Also, what exactly do you need to hold on, and what can you be flexible with? I was once flying to a friend’s wedding, and my second flight (a small plane) ended up cancelled completely. The airline offered a rebooking for the next day at the same time; I told them that with that schedule I’d arrive after my friend’s wedding was over; were there any other options, other than giving up and flying right back home? After a bit of discussion, they offered me a rebooking for that evening but to a different city about 3 hours drive away from my original destination.

          Long late night drive, had to change the rental car booking to a different pickup location, but I got to attend my friend’s wedding, which was the point of the trip.

          1. AVP*

            Totally. Last week I had 12 people flying into LA from 5 different cities on the day that southern California had a major radar outage – disaster! Half of the flights were just cancelled entirely, others were delayed, and delayed, and rebooked, and delayed more.

            So, about 8 of us (including me) were on a layover in Vegas when it all happened. When JetBlue started to talk about getting us hotel rooms, we immediately rented SUV’s and decided to drive. About 4 hours, but the Mojave desert is beautiful. It was actually a great trip.

            Three others were delayed and diverted but eventually made it in that night. That was fine.

            And then one of them was on an airline that just wouldn’t make a decision and eventually moved him to a flight the next day, which would not have worked, schedule-wise. Since he was already at the airport, he was able to walk around to the ticket counters and found that Southwest had a flight that was definitely leaving on time. He just bought a ticket, assuming the company would pay him back, and it worked out perfectly – the original airline gave me a refund (after a phone call a week after the original flight), the new flight was the same price, he arrived on time. And I gave him cash the next morning.

            Lessons learned: you have to ask for refunds, they won’t give them to you automatically, even if they strand you and you don’t take the flight. Ask for your refund AFTER the final leg of the trip, or you might get accidentally bumped off your return trip by the computer system. And fly JetBlue if you can afford to, their customer service is almost always great.

    4. Jubilance*

      The only and only time I’ve ever flown Spirit. This was back in 2005 so still their early days. I had a Friday evening flight; I checked in online and printed my boarding pass at home. Got to the airport, got scanned in, on the flight, yada yada yada. I have never been on a more cramped plane – everything was even more narrow than regular planes, and it was very uncomfortable.

      Fast forward to Sunday, I show up at the airport. They don’t have any kiosks yet so I have to stand in the line and check in, and it takes forever because they have 2 ppl checking in about 40 people and being very slow. I finally get to the front and the agent tells me my reservation was cancelled because I didn’t take the first leg of my flight. Excuse me? How do you think I ended up in this city, did I teleport? I show her my boarding pass from my original flight which was initialed by TSA. She’s just staring at me blankly, then she goes off to get a manager. I’m freaking out cause I’m fresh out of grad school with no money to afford an emergency one way flight back home. She’s gone for a while and I’m also freaking out because security in that airport was a monster and I was in danger of missing my flight. Finally a manager comes out and just hands me a boarding pass and tells me to run for my gate. I run over to security and plead with the man at the first class line to let me in so I don’t miss my flight. He thankfully does, and then I sprint to the tram to get to my concourse…then run through the concourse to my gate. I make it, but I’m hyperventialing from the stress and the run. Luckily someone gave me some water which helped. I get on the flight and sit in the middle seat in the last row and spend the 2 hours vowing to never ever ever give money to Spirit again.

        1. Cody c*

          Ha I used to work for an airline and even in a small airport I could easily tell 100+ stories about everything from flight attendants joining the mile high club to passengers accusing me of losing their family members or ruining their disneyworld surprises.
          And this was the job after flipping off Sammy Hagar!

    5. C Average*

      Some years back, I was in upstate New York pacing a friend in a marathon and was scheduled to fly out shortly after the race on the last flight of the day.

      DURING the race, the airline called to tell me my flight had been canceled and that they could put me on a competitor’s flight, which left before my scheduled flight. I’d need to arrive about an hour before I’d initially planned to arrive. I didn’t get this call because I was running a marathon! I only got the voicemail in the taxi to the airport after we’d finished, and by then it was too late to make the alternative flight.

      So I wound up sleeping on the floor of a small regional airport in upstate New York after running a marathon. I was unshowered, sore, and didn’t have anything packed that was warm enough to sleep in without covers, so I spent a very chilly, uncomfortable night.

      To make up for the inconvenience, the airline put me in first class on the flight the next morning! There I was, grubby and smelly, wearing my marathon finisher shirt that I’d slept in, surrounded by nicely dressed business people in first class.

      Even as it was happening, I found myself thinking, “This will make a good story.”

      1. Turanga Leela*

        SUCH a good story. And that’s a great perspective to keep during a delay.

    6. GigglyPuff*

      For the most part, it was an incompetent travel agent who screwed up. I was going to London for study abroad for a month with a massive program (i.e. multiple subjects being studied, kids from all over being flown there), for one of course despite living in the city of practically the biggest international airport, I had to fly down to Miami to get to London.

      Everything went fine, and we were about to land, when all of the sudden we get diverted to Tampa. Turns out the power was out in the American Airlines section of the airport in Miami. So I call my mom, who let the travel agent know, because there were so many people in the airport I could hear anything. Well the travel agent tells my mom, the airline has no record of me ever being on that flight, and my mom was like “then how did she end up in Tampa?”, seriously I started to wonder how often that happens.

      We ended up getting sent back home, and it just turned ugly! after that, but all of the travel agents’ fault. I understand she was probably stressed, holiday weekend, trying to get a large amount of people to a foreign country and many of the main flights (i.e. the flights from Dallas, New Orleans, Miami), were delayed because of bad weather…but it just got so ridiculous…the travel agent had said let her handle it, so we did, and she scheduled me for a flight the next day flying out of Dallas to London, (yes, I had to got further away first), we left the airport, go home, and about an hour later go to check in, because it’s within the time limits. She had never booked the section of the flight from my airport to Dallas, and by the time she tried there were no flights available, and I’m pretty sure something else happened like she left for the weekend or never returned our calls after that.

      So anyway my mom, who is freaking awesome like this, calls American Airlines, and after spending probably 3-4 hours on two different phone calls and four people, finally gets a manager who books me on a flight leaving my airport straight to London the next day, yay! Go to bed that night thinking all is good, wake up the next morning and go to check in for the late afternoon flight…totally got bumped at 2 a.m., despite the flight not being sold out.

      So we spent another couple hours on the phone with American Airlines, and it turns out British Airways, who they were partnering with, bumped me because the tickets were part of a large group packet, which means they were sold at a cheaper rate, and BA was trying to get last minute higher prices for the seat, which according to the manager at American Airlines, was completely illegal and against their contract with British Airways (awesome!). So after trying every possible combination, they finally find me a flight from my hometown to Chicago to London…catch it was like in totally two hours, decent traffic, holiday weekend, and international airport with massive security lines. At this point rushing to the airport, me and my mom agreed that if I didn’t make the flight, the entire thing was off, it was just completely ridiculous.

      Luckily I got there, I used the side security checkpoint, many people don’t know about, and was all good. And when I got to Chicago, the program leaders in London, which the program had started the day before, told me, they were sending a car to pick me up, which was great, since in the handbook they sent, had said if I didn’t arrive with everyone else I’d have to find my own transportation to the college.

      Overall, next time, even if it is cheaper, if I end up traveling with a group, I would definitely arrange the airline travel myself, and I would never willingly travel American Airlines again.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Oh and because the airline didn’t have a record of me on the initial flight, while I was waiting in Tampa, the travel agent didn’t believe my mom, so she booked me on at least two flights leaving my original airport, while I was still in Tampa and then traveling back to my original airport!

        I think my mom was ready to strangle that woman by the time this was over.

        1. cuppa*

          I wasn’t going to mention the airline, but I decided to now.
          An American Airlines agent once accidentally booked me backwards on a flight (leaving from my destination), and I didn’t notice until I checked in at the airport I was booked to fly to (I ALWAYS double-check now!). The gate agent looked at me like I was crazy and gave me a number to call, and when I finally got a hold of someone and explained my situation, she told me “Well, what do you want me to do about it?”. I was shocked and appalled.
          I was so offended I told her I just wanted my money back, hung up, marched over to United, and immediately got booked on a flight with them. I was standing in the security line and telling my mom the story over the phone, and the guy in front of me turned to me after I hung up and said, “Let me guess, you were trying to fly on American?”

            1. Anonylicious*

              I am so upset about the US Airways/American merger because US Airways always has the cheapest flights to my hometown and I’ve always had good experiences with them, but I hate AA.

              1. Annie O*

                Ugh, I know what you mean. US Airways is the only airline that offers a direct flight from my current city back to my home town. But I hate AA.

        2. Del*

          Haha okay, here’s the story.

          The flight was one of those multi-stop ones, and I was supposed to be getting off at the first stop. But then the pumps used to refuel planes at that airpot were hit by lightning (yep, not joking) so the airline’s response was basically “Ok, we’ll skip Washington DC and go straight on to New York.” Since it was late at night, they wouldn’t be able to put us on a flight down to DC until morning. Adults got put up in a hotel, but apparently the airline didn’t want to take on responsibility for putting me alone in a hotel room. So they had this thing called the “Unaccompanied Minors Room.” We got into JFK airport around midnight, and they shut me in there until the flight at 6am the next morning. By which I mean the door was locked and I had no way to contact anyone if I needed to get out for any reason. Good thing I hadn’t had any liquids in several hours!

          The room had a bunch of metal folding chairs, a crappy dial TV that got one staticky channel full of children’s programming in some language I didn’t recognize, and a basket of toys suitable for the preschool crowd. No bathroom. I was a pretty head-in-the-clouds kid so I just sat and read books until they came for me, and didn’t really realize until a few years later just how appalling the whole thing was.

          Honestly, I still don’t know how they got away with it! I was a pretty head-in-the-clouds kind of kid, so

          1. C Average*

            Wow, what an insane story.

            Total tangent: some time back, This American Life did an episode about the unaccompanied minor room. They described how, during a big blizzard, a whole bunch of children of divorce who were headed to their other parent’s home got stranded in the Denver airport and all had to hang out in the unaccompanied minor room together.

            I actually had to look it up to make sure I didn’t imagine it. It’s Episode 175.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            My comprehension must be turned off today… so they locked an underage person in a room with no food, no water, no bathroom, no bed OVER NIGHT?

            I cannot fathom…

          4. Nina*

            That really is crazy,and unacceptable. I never saw the UM room when I worked as a gate agent, but I was told that it had a bed, a TV or some toys and access to a bathroom. It’s scary enough to be away from home in a strange place (or a strange land) but no bathroom would have me going crazy.

    8. Tinker*

      I don’t think I’ve seen any airline employee as sheepish as the flight attendants who had to demonstrate the use of the oxygen mask to the folks on the flight that had been rescheduled because the previous attempt had lost cabin pressure over the Rocky Mountains.

      Got a free mojito for that one. :D

      2. fposte*

        Yeah, I think I’d be tempted to go all Southwest on that one and say “I know a lot of you already know this, but…”

        1. Tinker*

          That was pretty much what they did — they got through the stuff beforehand, and then they got up to that point and there was this awkward silence…

          … all of us looking at them…

          … then they said something to the effect of “And as you know, but we have to say it, in the event of loss of cabin pressure…”

          I kind of joked about how I wanted my money back — actually ended up getting a voucher for about half the price of the ticket. The “having air” half, I guess.

    9. Turanga Leela*

      I was supposed to fly out of a small airport during a heatwave, and they told the passengers it was so hot that the runway was melting and we couldn’t take off. They put us on a bus and drove us to a larger airport an hour away. I guess it was cooler there.

      1. Traveler*

        a melting runway? that is so traumatizing and how did that even make regulations??

          2. Traveler*

            Scary. I think I remember hearing that before now that I think about it. I must have blocked it out.

        2. fposte*

          A very frequent flying net-friend of mine once boarded a plane where the condensation was so bad that the passengers were all given umbrellas.

    10. Sascha*

      I was flying back from India to Texas, with only one stop in Frankfurt. I have a terrible time getting comfortable on flights or sleeping so I was exhausted from the first leg of India to Frankfurt. We had a layover in Frankfurt for a few hours, so I got a sandwich. And I also got food poisoning. So for the Frankfurt to Texas portion (~8 hours), I was vomiting, and uh, other things, the entire flight. I even vomited during landing and had to use the little bag. I wobbled off the plane and then threw up in a trash can right at the gate in front of everyone waiting for their loved ones.

        1. kbeers0su*

          +1. This might make me never want to fly (or eat in an airport) ever again.

      2. Anonylicious*

        I flew from SC to Seattle with food poisoning once. I threw up once on the carpet in the security line, and then I don’t know how many times in the barf bags. It was miserable.

      3. Windchime*

        This isn’t my story, but my son’s. He was flying from Seattle to Ukraine for a mission trip. His flight leaving Seattle was late, so he missed his connection from London to Kiev on the last flight of the day. The airline instead routed him to Germany, where he would catch a connection to Kiev. They gave him food vouchers for his trouble. Because of the stress of the flight, lack of food and being awake so long, he got a migraine before he landed in Germany. So there he was with terrible visual aura, trying to make a phone call to his contact in Kiev on a German pay phone (he doesn’t read German at all) while he could barely see because of the aura. He knew it would be a mistake because after the aura comes nausea, so by the time he was on the flight to Kiev, he was barfing into a bag as the plane was ascending.

        The migraine was over by the time he arrived in Kiev, but the guy who was picking him up didn’t get the message that my son was on a later flight and had already left. An English-speaking taxi driver kindly loaned Son his cell phone so he was able to call the guy to come back and get him. Oh, and because of all the re-routing, only one of his bags arrived and it was the one containing mostly gifts for his host. So he wore the same clothes for a week.

    11. chewbecca*

      We took a trip from the Midwest to LA in February. We booked non-stop out, but we had to take a layover in Denver on our way back.

      Our flight out incredibly smooth. We landed in LA 45 minutes early, which shocked the crap out of us.

      Our flight back was another story. Fifteen minutes prior to boarding time we find out our plane is still on the runway in Las Vegas. I think our flight ended up being bumped about an hour and a half.

      Luckily they held our plane in Denver, which ended up taking off only a couple minutes late since we had a comfortable layover time. Since the flight had already boarded we ended up having to sit apart, which sucked, but the plane was AMAZING. It felt like were in a spaceship.

      They ended up losing our bags, so we didn’t get them until mid-afternoon the following day. It wasn’t a horrible experience, but I don’t travel much.

      There was one flight to Phoenix I got seated next to a guy who didn’t understand the concept of personal space. I spent the flight trying not to stare at his artificial leg (it was in my line of sight when I looked down) and avoiding stepping on the gum that someone thoughtfully left on the floor.

    12. Annie*

      My worst one is flying from Seattle to my in-laws house over Christmas. We scheduled a red-eye flight through Chicago to South Bend. It takes about 3 hours to drive to my in-laws from Chicago, and 30 minutes from South Bend, so based on that, we figured it would be a little easier getting in and out. I wasn’t able to sleep on the red eye flight, and by the time we got into Chicago, they said our connection to South Bend was delayed, and it would be a 4 hour layover.

      At that point, we could have driven from Chicago, and been in bed before we got on the flight to South Bend. If we could have done that without our flights home being cancelled, I would have driven in a heart beat. Lessons learned, always fly direct, and never do a red eye unless absolutely necessary.

      They also lost our luggage on the way home, didn’t tell us until about an hour after it didn’t show up on the carousel, and then returned it to us at 2 am 3 days later.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        If it ever happens again, take the drive and call the airline to tell them that you will miss that leg of the trip, but you will still be using your flight home. I’ve done it and it has worked out fine. I did it on Southwest once, and they even gave me a voucher for the flight I cancelled.

        1. Annie*

          Yeah, I think if renting a car in Chicago wasn’t so much more expensive than in South Bend, along with a drop fee, we probably should have done that. I’ll keep that in mind for the next time I forget how awful red eye flights with connections are, and end up in the same predicament.

    13. Anonsie*

      I once saw Delta bump one parent and one toddler off an overseas flight but allow the other parent and the other baby & toddler on. They were at the gate around two hours before the flight, same as me, so I can’t imagine how that happened unless it was random selection. The Delta folks couldn’t/wouldn’t pick a different couple to boot, so they had to offer credits to get someone to volunteer their seats. But the next flight was a day later and this was early in the morning, so no one wanted to take it. They ended up having to raise the credit offer to something like $800 per seat before anyone volunteered.

      I would have taken it if I didn’t have an urgent need to get where I was going in the same day– seems like a win-win to give someone the seat they need and get a free plane ticket out of it. Seems like that kind of thing never happens when you actually have a flexible schedule.

    14. rollcake*

      I flew from Japan to Australia on China Southern Air. The flight from Guangzhou to Australia was 9 hours or so, but by hour 5 there was NO paper of any kind in any of the toilets! I’m talking toilet paper, tissues, seat covers, paper towels – everything had been used up by desperate passengers. I went to the flight attendants to ask about replacing the paper and they couldn’t understand me in either English or Japanese (despite using these along with Chinese when making announcements and serving food). Not only did the paper never get replaced, but the toilets themselves began to stink noticeably in the cabin. It was just awful!

      For a good experience, I once got upgraded to the newfangled “Economy plus” section by All Nippon Airways because I had requested an aisle seat in economy and they couldn’t fulfill that request! So instead I got boosted to the slightly wider seats and fancier food section to make up for what I hadn’t even considered a “must have.” So sweet :)

    15. Mints*

      This was our fault, but a couple family members were visiting us from out of the country, and their flight back home was right after midnight on, let’s say, May 12th.

      So May 12th everyone packs their bags, we get to the airport early, snack, have plenty of time, go to check in around 10 or 11. (Did you spot it?) We were 24 hours late! Totally missed the flight!

      It was fine, we were rescheduled for the next evening and nobody really had to be home urgently. But it was so flabbergasting when it happened. Like ten people read the ticket info (all my us, plus the people picking them up after the flight) and nobody noticed. It’s a classic funny story now

    16. C.C.*

      Flying to Australia from the US to see my family for Christmas and introduce my fiancee to everyone. First leg was 2pm on Dec 22nd which would have us arrive early on Christmas Eve.

      We were pretty excited so we arrive at the airport at 11am and head to American Airlines kiosks. Kiosk reports to us that it can’t print our tickets and we need to see an agent. No problem, we line up in a ridiculously long slow line (it is Christmas after all!). Get to the front and the agent says we missed our flight. We had been rebooked on an earlier flight that morning because our flight was over sold.

      Me: “But nobody contacted us?”
      AA Agent: “You should have checked online.”
      Me: “I did. I chose our seats last night”
      AA Agent: “Your travel agent confirmed the changes”
      Me: “We both have different travel agents” (because we booked at different times) “Neither of them contacted us”
      AA Agent: “I’m sorry I can’t help you and we are very busy”

      So we frantically call our (seperate) travel agents. They both have us confirmed on our original flight, including confirmed ticket numbers and everything. Return to the front of the line. “We have confirmed ticket numbers from our agents”

      The agent wouldn’t even look at us let alone respond. We stand there waiting, pleading, crying, yelling, bargaining for more than two hours before someone acknowledges us with more than “we can’t help you” or “not our problem”.

      Finally a manager comes out (15 minutes before the scheduled flight time). Manager: “The flight is over sold. Nothing we can do”. We ask to speak to the manager’s manager. They get them on the phone but won’t let us speak to them.

      Finally almost an hour after the flight was supposed to leave, the original agent comes back, hands us two tickets and says condescendingly to my fiancee “No need to cry honey”.

      To top it off because that first flight was late we missed our connection to Australia and had to get on a later flight to a completely different city in Australia and get another connection (arriving 8 hours later) and they lost our luggage so we didn’t have clean clothes until after Christmas.

      Never again.

      1. C.C.*

        Oh I forgot to mention that two seats they eventually gave us on that first flight were the two I chose online the night before!

    17. Wander*

      The worst airline experience I had was with United. I was flying from Sydney, Australia to LA – a 13ish hour flight. I was in coach, and the coach section of that plane (actually, of all United flights I’ve ever been on) was super cramped. Every seat on the plane was full except two of the four in the row in front of me. The seat directly in front of me was taken by a man who immediately reclined all the way. After he ignored the announcements about seat up, tray up for take off, I asked him if he could please not recline his seat. He complied (snottily) and then immediately lowered it again after we took off. I was exceedingly uncomfortable, but fine, reclining his seat is his right.

      Except remember how I said two of the four seats in front were unoccupied? I don’t know if he bought them beforehand or if it was just a coincidence, but regardless, a couple hours in he switched to the middle seat. He then proceeded to lay down across all three, with his feet on the seat directly in front of me. It was still fully reclined.

      After an hour, when it was clear that he was asleep, I paged for a flight attendant. It took 45 minutes for one to get there. When she did, I asked if she would please raise the seat in front of me, since it was very uncomfortable, and he wasn’t sitting on it. She refused because “his feet might get pinched.” They were on the cushion, well away from the moving part. I pointed that out, and she still declined.

      So I spent a miserable 13 hours unable to cross my legs or lean my head forward, all so some guy could have his foot rest reclined. Towards the end, he woke up and sat in the middle chair, so nothing at all was on the seat in front of me. It remained reclined, and my request to move it forward was again denied. It finally went up when we were landing and the flight attendants were doing the final checks.

      I refuse to ever take United for long trips again and will only use them for short trips if I really don’t have another choice (which has only happened once).

    19. fiat lux*

      My girlfriends are I were visiting NYC. When it came time to leave, we called a cab to go to the airport. Cab gets stuck in horrendous NY traffic, but luckily we get to the airport with just under an hour before our flight is set to leave. We go to the Delta self-check in counter, but as we try to select the option to check our bags, we receive an error message stating we cannot check bags. We get a Delta employee to help us, and come to find out, Delta has a policy at this airport that you can only check bags an hour or more before your flight is scheduled to depart. We are there and ready to go, but are told it’s too late to check our bags. We ask the Delta employee for alternatives – can we send our bags after us on another flight? Is there any way to carry our bags on? Anything? We are offered no alternative. We have to miss our flight and book the soonest available, which was the next day and involved 2 connections. We spend the night at the airport, lulled to sleep by Muzak. UGH.

      1. laura*

        This happened to me in London. Had to go standby to chicago and then on to San Francisco. Blargh!

    20. fiat lux*

      I see a commenter above shared their best, so I’ll share my best, too. I was traveling around the holidays and one of my flights was overbooked. The airline asked for volunteers to be booked on later flights with the incentive of a $500 travel voucher for the airline. I volunteered and they rerouted me in such a way that I only got to my destination a few hours later than I would have originally. And, they bumped me up to first class, where I sat next to another young woman, drank free beer, and made a new friend :-)

    21. Jules*

      American Airlines – Due to ground crew incompetence, I was stuck at LAX for 12 hours because they refuse to let the passanger with connecting flights to go to their boarding gates. He wanted us to pick up bags and fly on. Well, all of our bags (there were a group of us going to Florida) was checked through. I hated all the ground crew I had to deal with. But that is LAX for you.

      Delta – We bought my parents international tickets online on Delta.com. Shouldn’t be a problem right? When connecting with Korean airlines, they asked my parents to pay additional baggage fees. We told them that Delta had said they were eligible for 4 bags but they refused. I called their call center and they refused to help. I called the supervisor and she said that it’s not their problem despite me telling them that we bought tickets though Delta.com.

      I was in tears since my parents were not travelling with a lot of cash. They only had their final destination currency for a cab thereabouts. The supervisor said that she was older then my parents and they would be fine. Like WTF? Let me strand you in a foreign country with no money, no access to credit card and you don’t speak the language you piece of $%#$^#@

      My husband called them back and had it sorted out with the tech guys in no time. A techie himself, he figured it was a system error and dealing with customer service was fruitless.

      Next time I flew international I still went with Delta and they did not pre-order my meals on their partner’s connecting flight. They told me to contact Korea air myself. I did and Korea air told me that they only do what their partner told them. So I’m like @#$%#@#$. On the way back, we had our meals because on the previous flight a really awesome Korean Airlines air stewardess order the meals for us.

      I am going to start flying with other airlines. Delta has gone pretty bad and I can take my money elsewhere. I miss Northwest though. They are amazing with international flights.

      1. Windchime*

        I miss Northwest as well. Being from the Pacific Northwest, I always fly Alaska Air if I can and have never had a bad experience with them.

        1. samaD*

          +1
          if I have a choice, I pretty much always pick Alaska. WestJet’s been good too.

  27. Kimberlee, Esq.*

    A fun question for Friday: Hiring managers, do you have any pet peeves?

    I thought of it earlier when I noted that it drives me nuts when candidates write “utilized” instead of “used” in cover letters.

    My bigger one, though, is “apart” versus “a part.” “I’m so excited to be apart of your cause.” It’s a fundamental error…. that sentence now means the exact opposite of what you intended!

    And it’s even worse because at least one person makes that very error in literally every hiring round I’ve ever been a part of.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        Because “use” means the same thing and sounds much less awkward/pretentious. I’ve never (in my memory) read a sentence that used the word “utilize” that sounded better than if they’d just used “used.” It’s super buzzword-y.

        Example: “In my previous position, I utilized critical thinking skills to solve problems.” “I utilized our database to write queries,” etc.

        Actually, all those sentences sound pretty bad anyway. But they still sound better with “use.”

        1. Joey*

          Maybe it’s just me but when I hear utilized depending on how it’s used I might interpret it as to take advantage of . That might indicate resourcefulness (or not). Use doesn’t convey that.

      2. Annie O*

        In many usages, “utilize” is just unnecessary pretentious. Like in marketing materials. If “use” has the same meaning, use it!

        In rare cases, “utilize” can have special definitions that are not wholly synonymous with “use.” As an example, “I was unable to use the new computer program for my analysis.” Versus, “I was unable to utilize the new computer program for my analysis.” The meaning changes, depending on which word is used. The first indicates that I didn’t have access or knowledge to use the program; the second indicates that it wasn’t effective/productive for the analysis.

          1. Annie O*

            Thanks!

            Another good usage for utilize is when you’re talking about converting something for another purpose. As in, “I couldn’t find a screwdriver, but was able to utilize that butter knife.” Sure, you could still say “use” here, but utilize is technically more correct.

            2. Vancouver Reader*

              That’s the definition I was told, that you use utilize if the object you’re using isn’t being used for its original intent. So like your example, it’s perfectly fine to say you utilized the butter knife as a screwdriver, but you wouldn’t utilize a screwdriver to screw a screw.

      3. S*

        This is one of my pet peeves too actually, even though I’m not in a hiring capacity (although I do occasionally help with initial resume screenings). It just comes across as very pretentious – it means the exact same thing as “use,” but sounds more technical. In business writing, that’s a huge negative, because the entire point is to convey concepts concisely and clearly, and substituting “utilize” for “use” undermines both of those goals.

        Also, I’m sure this is industry-dependent, but I think a lot of hiring managers look for fairly casual/friendly/personal cover letters, and using technical-sounding language can come across as a bit uptight or awkwardly formal.

      4. Ash (the other one!)*

        I guess I press on people’s pet peeve’s then, but I like the word “utilize” more than “use”

      5. MJ*

        Agree! It may be more formal than “use” but I would not call it pretentious. The English language is vast; we should utilize it fully!

        1. LAI*

          Actually, I think the point is that utilize and use do NOT mean exactly the same thing, and most people are using it incorrectly (see, if I had said “utilizing it incorrectly” there, that would be weird and wrong, right?). The word utilize has an implication about efficiency or effectiveness. See Annie O’s post above about when “utilize” might be more appropriate than “use”.

    2. Vera*

      I work in a technical field, so if people make these types of errors I usually let it go. But it does really bother me if the candidate shows up to the interview and embodies every stereotype of people in my field.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        I think it’s moreso that it CAN be correct either way, depending on context, so spellcheck and autocorrect can’t really catch it. Though autocorrects are becoming smarter… I’ve certainly had mine catch the wrong “they’re/their/there” once or twice. Which is pretty cool.

        1. LV*

          My phone autocorrect catches me when I misspell a keyboard shortcut, which is cool to me. I have it set so that I type “idk” and it turns it into “I don’t know” – but it does it even when I accidentally type “isk” instead.

    4. cuppa*

      My pet peeve is when people don’t double check the position and write the wrong place, position, location, etc. in their cover letter.
      Also, my institution uses an online application system that asks you to attach or cut and paste a resume. At least once for every position I have hired for, someone has simply written, “I don’t have one.” in the resume box.

    5. Marcy*

      My pet peeve is when the applicant doesn’t bother filling out the application. I get that it is annoying to repeat everything when you are submitting a resume with the application, but it is required by HR. I hire for lower-level positions and the application asks for number of hours per week for each job, which HR needs to determine if the applicant meets the experience requirement. I get a lot of partially filled out applications but I use those to weed people out because if it is too much trouble to fill out the application then they won’t like entering data in the database on the job.

    6. Windchime*

      I’m not a hiring manager, but I see this one all the time and I’m not sure how/where it originated: People using “of” instead of “have”. Example: “I wish I would of said something”. I’m guessing that they are spelling “would’ve” phonetically. It bugs me because “would of” makes no sense if you think about it.

  28. ryn*

    Say you’ve been told you’ll be getting a raise. How long does it usually take for you to actually receive it? Just, ya know, wondering.

      1. ryn*

        Awesome. Awesome. I didn’t get it last pay check, and from what I’m understanding, I’m not getting this coming one, either. :/

        1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

          Ideally, they would tell you when it was effective when they tell you about it. If not, that’s the time to ask. But it’s fine to ask now, especially since you can say that you were expecting it on your last check.

    3. Sascha*

      Depends on how it was worded. In my experience, when my boss says “You’ll be getting a raise,” that means he has the intention of securing a raise for me but because of all the bureaucracy and politics at my workplace, it could be 3 months – 2 years. If he says “You got a raise,” then it was finally approved and I can expect it in my next paycheck.

      P.S. I work for a state university so everything moves as slow as molasses.

    4. rollcake*

      If possible, see if you can get a time frame to expect it taking effect. One of my friends was told: you’re getting a raise and it should be on your next paycheck. When it wasn’t in either of the next two pay cycles, she was given back pay for them when the raise was finally applied to her paycheck.

    5. Joey*

      Depends. Annual raises might become effective at some future trigger date like The start of your fiscal year. Regular ol off the cuff raises probably a paycheck or two depending on how your payroll runs and when the raise is data entered. I’d ask

  29. Loux*

    I have reached a bitch eating crackers level eith my boss and now that I was involved in a car accident is worse. He couldn’t even wish me well, just if I would be at the office the next day.

      1. Del*

        It’s a someecard graphic/general internet saying. As I recall, it goes something like, “When you dislike someone enough, every single thing they do annoys you. Look at that bitch eating crackers like she owns the place.”

      2. A Non*

        It’s that stage where you dislike someone so much that everything they do bothers you, even if it’s totally innocuous things. For example: “Look at that bitch over there eating crackers like she owns the place.” Not sure how/when it became a slang expression, but there it is.

  30. AdminAnon*

    I have been trying to connect with the assistant of one of our high-level Board members for over a month to get some information that I need for an upcoming event. I have tried emailing and calling, but she has not returned any of my messages. She has responded to several of the emails, but never with the information I need or even an acknowledgment of the request. We have worked well together in the past, so I’m not sure what the issue is this time around. My question is: would it be appropriate to email her (again) and copy her boss and/or my boss? This is a very important event and the information I need from her is vital to its success. Our bosses are in charge of the event (translation: I’m in charge of it), so it would be in everyone’s best interest. However, I don’t want to overstep or make it seem like I am trying to make her look bad. My boss knows what’s going on, if that helps.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      If you are in the same building, I would stop by the assistant’s desk and ask about it. The situation may be to complicated to type up, or something may have come up that they don’t want a paper trail… “I asked Mr. Smith 5 times for this information but he won’t answer me!”

      1. AdminAnon*

        Unfortunately, we’re not even in the same state or I would’ve done that ages ago.

    2. Jennifer*

      Call one more time saying YourBoss and I really need this info to make the event a success for YourBoss and HerBoss. If that doesn’t work, email and copy your boss. If that doesn’t work, email again and copy your boss and her boss. Be kind but direct. That way no one can say you didn’t explore “every diplomatic option”.

        1. Chriama*

          I definitely agree that you should reach out to her by phone or email and “name drop” your bosses, but I would ask your boss before cc’ing anyone. You don’t want to step into a political etiquette war zone.
          Tell your boss you can’t seem to get this information and you were wondering if it’s appropriate to ask and cc her boss, or if there’s a more sensitive way to go about it.

  31. Tiffany*

    I’m young in my career (under 30) and recently expressed interest to my boss about someday moving up in my company, and that I’d like to move into another role in my company in 2-3 years. Later that day my boss and my boss’s boss sat me down and told me there was an opportunity within the department they’d like me to take- a promotion, actually.

    After the surprise of it all, I came up with multiple reasons why I’m not interested in this role. I’m not sure I’d get along with newboss, or new co-workers. It’s not far enough of a departure from what I’m doing now – I was hoping to someday work in a completely different department. Co-worker that’s currently in the role is being forced out of this one and into a new role, and I think he might be put-off by me taking this role. Finally, I feel a little odd taking this role since my degree is in a totally different field (I’m trying to come up with a good comarison but nothing is coming to mind).

    Well, everyone I’ve spoken to about this says that no matter how uncomfortable I am with the idea of this position, I have to take it. They think that my management would balk at me turning it down and would be weary of giving me opportunities in the future. I think they are right but I’m feeling a little trapped that I can’t say no. Thoughts? Advice?

    1. LMW*

      I would consider having a conversation with the managers and frame it with your long-term goals. Can you say to them that you appreciate their response to your conversation, but you really want to build your career in X area and Y job seems doesn’t seem like it will help you move in that direction?

    2. Chriama*

      I can see 3 different concerns here:
      1) Relationship/politics (what if you don’t get along with new coworkers? what if previous employee resents you?)
      2) Long-term alignment (this might take you off the track for your long term goals
      3) Competency (you don’t have a degree in this new role)

      You should definitely talk to your boss, but the level of candor really depends on your relationship with him.

      Reason #2 is a totally valid concern and should definitely be mentioned. I like LMW’s suggestion of framing it in terms of long-term goals. You really appreciate the opportunity and are definitely looking for room to grow, but this is your long-term goal and you’re worried that this position won’t put you on the right track.
      Reason #3 may or not be worth mentioning. They offered you this role so they think you can do it. Not all degrees have a corresponding job type (unless you’re a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc), so your academic background may be irrelevant. If you think the lack of background will affect your ability to do the job, it’s ok to ask your boss what it would take for you to be successful in that new role and figure out if that aligns with your skills.

      Reason #1 is only worth mentioning if your boss is politically sensitive. You can mention that you feel weird about the cultural dynamic you’d be walking into in that new role. Can they give you advice on how to handle it?

      This advice is moot if your organization is the kind where you either take the promotion or start polishing up your resume. If you think there’s a significant risk to questioning or refusing this promotion, you’ll have to decide whether the potential discomfort in your new role is worth being pushed out of the organization. I only mention this because you said it seems like the previous employee was also forced into his new role. You know how your organization works.

      1. Tiffany*

        Thanks so much for breaking it down into smaller chunks. This is very helpful and clarifies the issues at hand.

        Reason #2 – Maybe the issue I’m having with it is that it’s not the path I identified for myself, and so it makes me a little uneasy.
        Reason #3 – I’m an engineer and they want me in a marketing role. I just feel like it doesn’t get more polar opposite than that, although many people say that I’m a natural with marketing.

        I’ve already talked with my boss a few times about all three issues but they haven’t given me much guidance on how to navigate. I get a lot of empathy that this role change might be difficult for the reasons stated, but that I’ll get through it.

        I haven’t seen a situation at my company like this. I’ve definitely seen what’s happened if people aren’t successful in roles. I’m kind of thinking that I have to take it (if offered) and if it doesn’t work out, jump ship and join a new organization.

        1. Chriama*

          I think you should break down the issues for yourself, and decide what sort of answers you want to hear. For #2, if it really isn’t in your career path and will totally derail you, explain that to your boss and ask to be kept in mind for roles with a focus on x instead of y.

          However, you sound more like you’re open to the idea but are worried about succeeding. Your boss keeps saying you’ll be fine, but you’re worried that you might not have the right skills. This requires that you talk to the manager in your new role and establish expectations and priorities early on. You could ask your boss now. Say something like “Before I commit to taking this position, could I meet with manager Jane and discuss her expectations for this role? I want to make sure that I have the skills she needs and that I understand what she’s looking for in the role. I would also feel reassured to hear what strengths she’s identified in me that would benefit her if I took this position.”

    3. Diane*

      It’s possible your bosses see this role as a stepping stone to the path you actually want to take. It may not be significantly different from what you’re doing now, but there may be small projects and opportunities that lead to something bigger.

      It’s also perfectly natural to come up with a dozen reasons you don’t want to do something now that you just said you wanted to do some day. Unless you see screaming red flags, though, really consider taking this opportunity, and let your bosses know what kinds of specific skills you want to develop so they can lead you to more opportunities.

      1. Tiffany*

        Thank you for this very helpful and supportive advice. I think their intention was to give me something to grow in and to provide me with even greater visibility than I have already.

        I feel like I’m living the book Lean In, and if I don’t take this position then I’m doing some sort of disservice to all women everywhere!!

        1. Kate in Scotland*

          Late to the party here, and maybe I’m reaching but do you feel like they think you are ‘a natural at marketing’ because you are female? I certainly have seen places where they seem to like to shunt the female engineers into non-engineering roles, which can be limiting long-term even if it’s a promotion in the short term. (I apologise if your aim is a non-engineering role or you don’t think your gender is coming into play here.)

          1. Tiffany*

            Kate, thanks. You might be right. I know that marketing is far more than what most people think it is, and what I tend to be good at is making things look nice and pretty. Also in my industry, we have several very different customer bases, and I know how to tailor things specific to each one.

            I’m currently not in a full-on engineering role (design), and I don’t ever plan to be in one in the future. I’m really liking the roles that require engineering knowledge or training, but you’re not necessarily applying that every day. Not sure if that make sense. I’m really happy in my current role so I haven’t really been thinking through my 5-10 year plan.

  32. Chriama*

    Question: I’m about to graduate school and move halfway across the country. I made some semi-professional relationships here that I would like to maintain (professors and company contacts I worked with as a student club exec), but I don’t know how to do that.

    I’m moving back home but I don’t plan to stay there forever. In 2, 5 or 10 years these people may be valuable contacts. But they’re across the country in a city I’ll have no reason to visit once I’ve finished school.

    How do you keep in touch with people when you may never see them again?

    1. Ash (the other one!)*

      Make sure you’ve connected on LinkedIn. Also send periodic emails reaching out for advice.

      1. Chriama*

        How do you word one of those emails? As professors they’re all heavily involved in research and I’m going to be working in a company so there isn’t a whole lot of career advice they can give me.

        Also, how often is “periodic”? Every 3 months? Once a year? Does it make sense t0 be more frequent in the beginning and then taper off as time goes by?

        1. Ash (the other one!)*

          I reach out to my old profs from time to time to let them know of something that has happened and to thank them for their contribution in it. Really, only email them if you have a specific reason to, but always bring it back to them. I wouldn’t put a set time frame on those emails either.

        2. Turanga Leela*

          I send emails letting them know what I’m up to: I just finished a big case about X, I just moved to a new city, etc. For the ones I know well, I add personal stuff as well. It always feels funny to me that they would want to hear these things, but they seem to appreciate it. I also send congratulatory notes if I hear about papers they’ve published or anything like that.

          I aim for every few months. This is something I’m working hard to get better at.

          1. Chriama*

            How do you hear about papers they’ve published?

            This situation is just weird because I don’t think there’s anything specific that they did that contributed to my career. I liked their classes, but that isn’t what I’m going to be working in; I just like them as people and want to keep in touch.
            But since our relationship in school wasn’t that close, it would be weird for me to start emailing them so often asking about their kids or whatever. On the other hand, I feel like it would be disingenuous for me to ask how their research is going when I’m not working on that subject.

            If I had a reason to go back to that city I would obviously email them and ask to meet up for coffee or something, but other than that I just don’t want them to forget about me. A little selfish, I guess

            Is there an art to maintaining a casual acquaintanceship with someone long-distance?

            1. Turanga Leela*

              If you’re feeling like it’s selfish, remember that professors want to know they’ve had a positive impact, and they benefit from having students who are out in the world doing interesting things. Many of them like being able to tell current students what alumni are up to. At its most basic, think of it like an e-blast: you just want to check in and let them know that you’re still at X job, you really like it, you finished off a big project about Y, and you hope all is well with them. Personalize slightly for different professors. If you have questions they can actually help you with, include them.

              I usually find out about publications through alumni magazines, but once I saw a professor’s book cited on a blog I read. I thought that was cool, and I told him so.

              1. Chriama*

                The alumni magazines are a good idea, thanks. Your description makes sense. Checking in and letting them know what I’m working on at the moment and wishing them well is a good idea.

                Thank you!

  33. Ash (the other one!)*

    Question for Feds (calling Katie the Fed!)

    I made it through the USAJobs vortex and have an interview next week for a federal career position. I’ve heard that decisions are usually made really quickly after interviews at the federal level since you’ve already been culled to the cert list. True?

    Also any specific advice pertaining to federal interviews?

    1. Mimmy*

      No advice, just wanted to say congrats on getting through that “vortex” and getting an interview. Good luck!!

    2. De Minimis*

      Another federal employee here…

      Unfortunately it’s hard to really give a useful answer, different agencies have different practices, and even within an agency things can different between location and depending on the type of position.

      It’s been my experience that if it’s a single position at a single location, things can move a little more quickly than a case where it’s a wider level hiring for multiple positions at multiple locations, like when the IRS does a mass hiring for entry level revenue agents. For my position I got a phone call with a tentative offer the day after my interview. Part of that might also be that my position was a brand new one and I wasn’t replacing anyone, so there might have been less involved in filling it.

      I’ve had a number of federal interviews…some have been structured where they give you pre-selected scenarios where you have to say what you would do in certain situations, and others were more similar to private sector interviews. There have been others where they would just go over your resume and ask for more detail.

      I will say also that a lot of the bureaucratic slowdowns occur prior to the interview stage [often even prior to the job being posted] so you’re right that things can move fast once interviewing begins…although again, not so much in cases where a lot of offices are filling positions at once.

      Have you gone to Federal Soup? Sometimes you can find pointers there if it’s an agency where there are a lot of commenters, although trolling is also an issue on that site.

    3. JC*

      I’m a former fed and my husband is a fed. Timelines and interview experiences can vary a lot by agency. In my old agency we did need to have interviews and make decisions relatively quickly after we got the cert, because it would expire if we didn’t. By “relatively quickly” I mean “quickly for the government.” I think the last time we hired in my old office the job ad closed in June, we got the cert in August and immediately started scheduling interviews, and let people that we hired know they were hired in early September. We needed people to pass a background investigation before they started (for no good reason, it wasn’t a security clearance or anything), so it took a couple months before they could start.

      So generally things in the government can go verrrrry slowly, but sometimes hiring needs to go quickly if you’ll lose the ability to make your hire if you didn’t go quickly enough.

      As for interviewing experiences, that definitely varies. I see people on AAM talk about hiring by committee and people being read questions off of a pre-approved list. That was not my nor my husband’s experience for our federal jobs. I think we both had a half-day interview with a handful of management types and current staff. We both weren’t local, and they paid his travel expenses for his interview but my agency did not for mine.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      It’s really going to depend on the agency. It’s true that we might make a decision quickly, but then you have to go through the magical mystery machine that is HR. And with funding issues right now at a lot of places we put hiring on hold so there are people stuck perpetually in the hiring process until billets open up.

      So…it might be a crapshoot. The managers may decide that day that they want you but it has to be cleared by HR and legal and god knows what else.

      My advice on the interview – make sure you answer the question. It sounds basic but you’d be surprised by how many people don’t actually answer the questions we ask. You can bring a pen and paper and take notes if you need to – if it’s a two part question make sure you answer both parts. The interview process is very regimented and we fill out paperwork after them explaining how we reached our decision. So it could come down to something like “answered question 3 more thoroughly.” So just make sure you answer all questions so they can put it all on the paperwork.

      Definitely show enthusiasm for the job. I always ask some variation of “why do you want this job” and you’d be amazed at how many people seem stumped by that. Have a good answer on that.

      Also, some general advice a friend gave me one here – have some vignettes on hand about how you’ve dealt with various situations so you can easily draw from them. A time when you’ve dealt with a difficult situation, things like that.

      Good luck and congrats for making it this far! You’re probably one of less than 10 culled from several hundred, so that’s something to be very proud of!

      1. De Minimis*

        See with ours there won’t even be a job posted unless the funding is already there, although most of the time we are replacing people who leave so it would rarely be an issue anyway.

        I used to think government jobs had low turnover till I started here!

    5. Ash (the other one!)*

      Thanks all — super helpful! I’m surprised I actually got the interview (it’s for a GS-14) but the job sounds amazing and right in line with my interests and experience, so I’ll give it my all and see where things end up. The job listing only closed one month ago (4/6) so it does seem like they’re moving quickly (for Fed at least).

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Nice! Keep in mind with a GS-14 you’re probably competing against a lot of internal candidates, because the number of available 14 slots is WAY lower than 13s, so all the 13s are going to be clamoring for it.

    6. Anonylicious*

      I’m trying to remember how long it took from interview to offer last time I went for a fed job (that I wound up not taking). This was a couple of years ago, and it might vary by agency (this particular job was with DHS), but I think it was like two or three weeks from interview to offer? Maybe a month at most. Which is pretty quickly when you’re talking about a fed job.

      Congratulations and good luck!

    7. College Career Counselor*

      Can’t speak to all federal positions, but at least some federal FINALIST interviews are conducted entirely over the phone (< 30 mins) with an offer made 2 days later after that. The candidate asked about meeting people and was told something like "no, that's not how we do this." The candidate (who was already in a federal agency and thought this was beyond bizarre) then declined because she wanted to, you know, meet the people she would be working with. Major red flag there!

      1. De Minimis*

        Maybe, maybe not. I’ve had a few other federal interviews and never met anyone other than people who might have been my manager or perhaps my manager’s manager.

        A lot of agencies are big on security and as a non-employee they want your time in non-public areas to be severely limited, especially in cases where they deal with confidential information.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          I hear you. However, this was not a security situation, and the candidate didn’t meet ANYbody, not even the person who would be the supervisor.

    8. The IT Manager*

      I got a phone call within a week of my interview telling me on the down low that I got the job. HR contacted me a month and a half to two months later with the offer. So depending on the job and when the interviews are scheduled I think they make a decision fairly quickly, but HR moves slowly.

  34. Mimmy*

    It’s amazing how this thread explodes to 100+ comments in just the first 15-20 minutes. lol.

    Anyway, I just wanted to share some of my recent successes since I’ve been mentioning them so late on Open Thread days.

    1. I was appointed to state-level council directly related to my areas of interest. I am so, so excited and am greatly looking forward to the trainings (they’re aiming for something in July) and the work. Really, really hoping this will help get my career back on track as I haven’t had a paid job in several years (I know, I know…..)

    2. I am in the final stages of submitting my application to the graduate certificate (masters level) program I wrote about a couple weeks ago. I submitted the actual application online; now I’m looking over a colleague’s Letter of Recommendation, which she will then submit hopefully in the next couple of business days.

    Please please keep your fingers crossed for me that things are finally starting to come together for me! I’m still not ruling out the PhD (I wrote about that under my old username)–I just have some lingering qualms about it that I need to work through.

    2. fposte*

      Definitely crossing my fingers for you, and many congrats on the council appointment!

      1. Vancouver Reader*

        It’s always great to hear success stories. Congratulations and keep us informed on how things go.

  35. KTM*

    My husband’s last day at his job was yesterday and he will be starting an exciting new position next month! I sent him a lot of AAM articles over the course of his job search/interviewing and used a lot advice that I’ve read here, so a huge thank you to Alison and the AAM community!

  36. Malissa*

    What would you do?

    I’m up for a professional certification. I’ve spent thousands of dollars and finally got all of my paperwork together. I submitted everything in March for review with the state board. They found one mistake, that wasn’t under my control, sealed letters and all that jazz. I got it fixed and my app got delayed until April. Review day came in April another mistake was found. I was urged to fix it as soon as possible so as not to delay my certification further. Got it fixed according to instructions in 2 hours.
    Fast forward a week and I find out that the hurry wasn’t justified and now certification isn’t likely to happen for another month. The person that urged me to hurry is also the person that should have caught the second mistake when they caught the first one. And also the person I had to pull the information out of to find out my certification has been delayed another month.
    Would you write her supervisor so this doesn’t happen to other people? She did not say at any point that she was sorry for anything.

    1. Jamie*

      I wouldn’t write one word until you got your certification.

      In an ideal world sure, people can try to correct problems by informing those in the position to do so but certification can be so politically…complicated…I’d be as cooperative and accommodating as possible until you get it. Then try to figure out based on other dealings with them if it would be to your advantage or not.

      1. Malissa*

        I will not do anything until that certification is in hand! that is for darn sure.

    2. Vera*

      I don’t know. When I review stuff at my company, I try to catch everything in the first pass, but inevitably on second pass I do catch a few more things.

      Now, when other people review my work, and have seen the piece 6 or 7 times and choose to comment on the final draft something that’s been present in all 6 previous drafts, that does drive me up the wall and indicates the person wasn’t even really looking before.

      In this case, it sounds like the former, so I’d cut her a break. I know it’s frustrating, though.

  37. CLM*

    Anyone have that one company that they just keep applying to, and can’t get any traction with, at all? For me, it’s fairly decently sized research university near my house. Every once in a while, they’ll post jobs in my field (editorial/communications, staff, not faculty), and I will tailor my cover letter and tweak my resume and apply.

    Even back when I wasn’t looking for a job in earnest, if I saw a job at this place, I would still apply. And I’ve never gotten so much as a phone interview with this place. Just form rejection after form rejection.

    1. Ash (the other one!)*

      Do you know anyone who works there? Try building your network out so you have some support from within.

    2. Annie O*

      Public universities in my state are required to post all positions externally. (I can’t remember if this is a state law or just a policy of the university system.) An unfortunate consequence is external job postings when an internal candidate has already been selected.

      1. Sascha*

        Yep, I work at a public university and even promotions have to be posted externally for something like 5 days. I think it’s ridiculous. So you will see jobs with extremely specific descriptions pop up from time to time, stay open for a few days, and then close. I feel bad for people who apply to those jobs.

    3. Chriama*

      At this point you should be networking. You’ve gained absolutely no contact going through normal channels, so you need to start building some personal relationships. Obviously networking is a long-term strategy that doesn’t help if you need a job today, so unless you’re really dedicated to this organization I’d say widen your job search.

      2 possible strategies (I don’t know if they’re a good idea, someone with more hiring experience will need to weigh in on it):
      1) If you know the name of a hiring manager who received more than 1 of your applications, email them and ask if they have any feedback for you.
      2) If you know anyone who works at the university, ask them for an informational interview or to review your resume. Be careful not to treat it like a shortcut to an interview — make sure it stays at the level of “I’ve applied here in the past and never had an interview, so I was wondering if there’s something fundamental missing from my application that you can spot”.

  38. mango284*

    This is going to sound really stupid…

    So I mentioned last week that I accepted a really great job offer! I’m beyond excited and I start on Monday. The only problem is… I don’t remember how to get to my department’s area in the (very large) office. This is especially bad because I was there on three separate occasions for interviews. During those times, however, I would wait at the receptionist’s desk until someone came to walk me down to where the offices are located for the interviews. I was always so nervous and hyper-focused on the interview that I never paid much attention to all the turns we made in order to get from the lobby area to this particular department’s offices. But I did this THREE TIMES!! You would think that would have been enough times to pick it up… I mean, the office is big with lots of hallways and turns but still…

    My plan now is to just walk right in on Monday as if I know where I’m going and hope I’m able to find my way to my office… I think it should be okay unless I happen to walk past someone I know (from one of the interviews) and they say, “Hi _____! Where are you going? Your office is in the other direction…”

    I feel like SUCH an idiot… like the lost new kid in school except I’m an adult and should know these things. :(

    1. Jen RO*

      I would wait at the reception, honestly. I have been at my current job for 6 months and I found out *yesterday* where the downstairs kitchen is. Before this, I was too embarrassed to go look for it. I completely understand how you’re feeling!

    2. LMW*

      Every job I’ve ever started has had me stop at reception to check in with HR, fill out paperwork, get any IDs etc. Are you sure you don’t need to do any of that?
      Even if you don’t, you could still check in with reception ask if you need to do anything or if you could go right on up and ask the receptionist to direct you (receptionists are the best people to build relationships with anyway — they usually know everyone!)

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        Receptionists are the best. The ones at my office have all the good coffee and biscuits, the keys to the stationary cupboard and no end of other useful things.

    3. Vera*

      When you get there on your first day, just tell the receptionist, “Hi, I’m ____, it’s my first day working here. I’m working with _____, do you think you could see if he or someone in his group is available to show me to my desk?”

      I mean surely, you’re not coming in on day 1, logging into e-mail, and going. Someone has to show you something on your first day!

    4. Traveler*

      Just ask the receptionist or someone for help. People should be understanding about this in a big office with lots of twists and turns. I know three times seems like a lot – but if you’re focused on other things (like your interview!!) its really not. I’ve been there though – you have my sympathy.

    5. Pip*

      You could also lurk around near the entrance until you see someone you recognise from that department and follow that person. ;)

      But seriously, just ask the receptionist for directions. You are going to have to swallow your newbie shame a lot in the coming weeks, so get used to it ASAP! And congratulations on the new job!

    6. Judy*

      Most times I’ve started a new job (all engineering in F500 companies), I’ve been given an assigned time to show up for the first day. If usual start time is 7:30, the assigned time was 8 or 8:30. The first morning was with HR signing papers, getting ID and signing up for benefits. At some time in late morning, either HR would take me to work area, or the manager was called to take me to work area.

      Most places you can’t get past the receptionist or security guard without company ID.

    7. Celeste*

      Like the others said, they’ll want you in a holding pen until HR is done with you (can take hours!) and your supervisor is ready to come get you and show you where to sit, etc.

      Congratulations!

    8. Anonylicious*

      I’ve been at my job for four months, and twice this week I’ve turned the wrong way leaving the restrooms to head back towards my desk. It’s not a large office.

      Don’t feel bad about asking the receptionist. It’s so much less awkward to do that than to try to find your way yourself and wind up massively lost.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Just to make you feel better: I worked in a much smaller place. It was a weird building. If you drew the hallways on paper, the hallways would look like the capital letter “I”. It was one floor. Everything was labeled.

      People got lost all. the. time. Visiting people, new workers, contractors, you name it- they all got lost. We were all used to finding lost people on our way to the restroom- it was never a big deal. Just find out where the person needed to be and walk them there. (This was doable because the building was not big, just confusing.)
      I am sure your NewJob has a similar culture in place and people are very used to seeing a person looking confused in the hall.

    10. Apollo Warbucks*

      I wouldn’t worry about it you can always ask for directions and a tour of the office people won’t be expecting you to know where everything is on your first day

  39. LV*

    I’m slightly upset/annoyed. A few weeks ago I had a great interview for a position that I really wanted and did not get an offer. Through the magic of LinkedIn I learned that it went to an acquaintance of mine. She’s a recent grad (as in, she finished her coursework just days before the job started) and her only experience in the field is a 10 hours/week 8-month internship. I had done the same internship previously and also have 2 years of full-time work experience in that field. (The job description called for 2-3 years of experience.)

    I know that she is an intelligent and capable young woman and that there are other reasons she was chosen which I’m not aware of. And I certainly don’t want to get all bitter and petty and jealous over this – especially since I ended up getting an offer from another org shortly after. I’m just a bit miffed because I fit the job description better and I wish I knew what the hiring committee based their decision on.

    1. Ash (the other one!)*

      You never know what the other factors are — she has better connections, she was more personable in her interview, they could pay her less… time to just move on and keep looking.

    2. IndieGir*

      Ohh, that sucks. I’m so sorry this happened to you. You’ll never know what they were thinking — maybe she had an in somewhere, or maybe the hiring manager felt threatened by you for some reason.

      I recommend the immediate application of chocolate and a big glass of wine.

    3. Jen RO*

      It was probably a matter of money – she is less experienced and asked for a lower salary.

    4. LMW*

      There have been a few times where I’ve seen a company choose a less experienced candidate because they think it’s better to start with someone with less experience who might stick around a bit longer, rather than someone with a bit more experience who might want to move up and out of the position in a year or so.
      Actually, I’ve seen this happen repeatedly with marketing coordinator positions — they say they want someone with 2-3 years experience, but all the people with experience actually seem ready/able to take a position at the next level. So they hire a new grad with just an internship because they think she has great potential and will be a contributing team member for longer.

      1. LV*

        Sticking-around-ness was not a factor in this case because it’s a temporary position to replace someone who was going on maternity leave (1 year). The pickings are slim in my field at the moment, unfortunately – it’s mostly short-term contracts like this one.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          OOOHHH. My guess would be they felt you had more experience and would probably leave before the year was up.

          I got a job over another more qualified person because the boss was betting I would stay at the job longer than the other person.
          Boss felt that the other person would leave at the first offer.

          In your case, it could be a backwards compliment.

    5. Chriama*

      It just shows you never know from the outside whether you’re the best candidate. Possible reasons she was picked over you from off the top of my head
      – she interviewed better/ was more personable/ built a good rapport with a key decision-maker
      – she had lower salary expectations
      – she had some unrelated skill that they didn’t think about when posting the position but realized they wanted when they heard she had it
      – she knew someone who pushed her application in front of the right people
      – she knew someone who forced them to hire her
      – her promotion track happens to align well with current employees (e.g. she’ll stay in the role for 3 years before wanting to move up and someone higher up has mentioned wanting to move on in 3 years, meaning there will be room for her to advance while staying in the same company
      – she’s junior, so they’ll be able to keep her longer

      1. Turanga Leela*

        I want to echo the thing about skills they didn’t realize they wanted. We’ve been hiring recently, and one candidate jumped out at us for having experience that would be really helpful but that we hadn’t even thought about when we wrote the job posting. His background made us think that he could serve a slightly different role than we had anticipated. It wasn’t a knock on any of the other candidates, and it wasn’t something anyone could have predicted or seen from the outside.

    6. College Career Counselor*

      I just participated in a round of candidate interviews as the 3rd/outside person in the interview process. In 3 out of 4 of the candidate interviews, I had the polar opposite reaction to the other interviewers. What I found to be vague platitudes, they found to be markers of enthusiasm and passion. In one case, they rejected the candidate with previous formal training and experience doing the job because they thought him to be inflexible. (He happened to be the candidate who answered the questions with concrete examples.)

      I’m not the person who has to work with the successful candidate, and the other two know the organization well, so I’m certain their take on who typically is successful has merit. All of which is to say that sometimes it’s more about [perception of] “fit” than experience. You never know what a search committee or hiring manager is going to seize on as being important.

      1. LAI*

        This happened to me too! I was asked to serve on the hiring committee for a position in another department, and I (and one other person) had opposite reactions to the rest of the team. But I knew I wasn’t going to be working with the person on a daily basis so I didn’t feel like I could argue for my opinion very strongly. They ended up hiring the candidate who I thought was awkward and had the least relevant experience…

  40. Elkay*

    I was posting a few weeks ago about going for a new job. I decided in the end the job wasn’t right for me as there were a few red flags and I felt that within 6 months I’d turn into a miserable she-devil. Anyway, as part of that I “networked” with someone who used to contract at my old job who dealt with the company, this was a big, scary step for me because I get quite anxious when interacting with people. The upshot is I ended up with a “Actually you’d be great for my current company, let me know if you’re interested”. I’m currently not interested but it’s always nice to hear nice things about yourself. It’s all thanks to reading AAM too.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      That’s cool. Good for you- it’s a real boost to hear those kinds of things.

  41. De Minimis*

    A job came open with another agency and I’m about to apply….it has promotion potential [my current one does not] and will be located in the same city where I live. It also seems like a better use of some of my experience and background [it’s an auditor position, and although I’ve never worked as an auditor it will be a better way to use my CPA license than my current position, which is more of a glorified bookkeeper and doesn’t really involve a lot of professional judgment.]

    People here will not take it well if I get the position, but I have to do what’s best for me. The commute for my current job is really wearing me down, and I really need to find something that at least has the potential for a higher pay grade in the future for the sake of my retirement.

    1. Ash (the other one!)*

      Do it. In the end your current agency will survive without you and you have to do what’s right for you. I have to keep telling myself this, too.

    3. Traveler*

      Seconding the do it! A long crappy commute can make even a good job not worth it after awhile.

      1. De Minimis*

        I’m going to at least try it….not sure what my chances are since it’s technically a different job series but I am hopeful. At least I’m a local candidate!

    4. Katie the Fed*

      Good luck! And really, who cares if they don’t take it well. You’ve put in your time.

      1. De Minimis*

        I actually have no real indication they will be upset, but I know it will be a major problem. I was hired to replace a retiring employee, have been trained by her since I started, she has finally announced her retirement at the end of the fiscal year and now there’s a possibility that I’m leaving. She and I are basically the entire finance department.

        So I can’t help but feel a little guilty, but the truth is that there will never be a good time to leave this job due to how it’s staffed, so if there’s a better opportunity I need to at least look into it.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Not sure what “people won’t take it well” means. It could be that they will be sad/upset to see you go. Am guessing that it’s more like they will be mad at you.
      Oh, how professional. (NOT)
      If they do get mad at you just tell yourself “reason #25 for leaving”.
      They are just proving you made the correct choice.

  42. Sadface*

    The office I work in is owned by 2 different insurance agents – I’m the only employee for agent A, and agent B has 4 employees. We all work in the same two rooms, and know each other/get along well. Last December, agent B decided to have a Christmas party at his house – and only invited *his* 4 staff members. This normally wouldn’t have been that big of a deal, except for the fact that he openly discussed his Christmas party right in front of me, going around asking his staff what their food preferences are, etc. To make things even worse, after the party was over, he said I could have some of the leftover food he brought and put in the fridge!

    A couple of weeks ago, only 2 of his employees were working that day (I was working alone as usual, since I’m the only employee of agent A). Agent B decided to buy burgers and milkshakes for his employees – he got takeout, brought it into the office, loudly called his employees to the break room in the back, and they all sat and ate/talked/laughed together while I sat there by myself, embarrassed and feeling very hurt. I actually ended up leaving work early that day because I wanted to cry (which I later regretted since I should still focus on my work for agent A).

    It seems like agent B thinks that because I don’t technically work for him, this somehow gives him a pass to exclude me openly and without any shame. He cannot spend a single dime on me for anything whatsoever. It’s apparently *too much* for him to invite me (ONE PERSON) to his Christmas party, or buy one more burger and shake. This isn’t an issue I can even confront him about, but I at least want to hint that it’s extremely rude to do things like that, especially since I’m by myself (not like I have coworkers of my own to be left out with).

    Any advice/tips/thoughts? How do I stop caring so much? How do I let them know that I’m unhappy about this behavior (though it seems like common sense/decency)?

    1. Sadface*

      Oh, I also wanted to add — back in September, agent B’s daughter had her first baby (his first grandchild), so I bought him and his daughter a gift. When my birthday came around at the beginning of this year, he didn’t get me anything or say happy birthday – nothing. Now, I didn’t get him the gift with the expectation of wanting something in return, but it did strike me as a little uncaring to ignore my birthday after I made such an effort to congratulate him on his grandchild. Added to his other rude behavior, it just makes it even worse :/

      1. Jennifer*

        Wow, what a rude jerk! I’m so sorry for you. Even if there were some technical reason to exclude you, it’s just completely lacking in basic etiquette and common courtesy to be so blatant about it. I hope your boss notices/cares.

      2. Vera*

        I think you’ve got to let this roll off your shoulders. This may just be the nature of this office. To me, this is equivalent to a director taking the entire team out to lunch and they all sit in the same cube aisle as me. I think it’s just more of an issue for you since there are so few employees in your office. Some people in my office do nice things for other people for their birthdays (set up balloons in cubicles, bring in cake, etc) but I won’t be at all shocked if nothing at all happens for my birthday. I’m sad to say it but you’ll have to begin lowering your expectations and frankly, expect to be left out in this case.

        1. Sadface*

          It’s more of an issue because I’m the *only* other person. I’m not another “group” or “team” or even 2 other people – it’s just me. So when I get left out of things like that, it’s not only more apparent, it also seems more intentional. I don’t see how one person is an inconvenience to include, even if I technically don’t work for him. Shouldn’t basic manners take over this situation, because I’m by myself? I know if the roles were reverse, I’d never exclude someone who was alone, and even if I felt like it was no big deal, I wouldn’t walk around discussing the events they’re not invited to (or eating meals I didn’t include them in) right in their face.

          But I do agree that I need to lower my expectations of people. I guess they’re just so high because I have high expectations of myself…

          1. Vera*

            Actually, yes, I think it is a big deal to include just one more person. It could be financial, but it’s more likely simply business. If Agent B starts including you, then Agent A will have to start including all of the other employees that work for Agent B if he every does these types of activities.

            I agree it’s rude to discuss particulars in front of you, but you all work in the same space. Would you rather him send an e-mail to everyone letting them know there are burgers and milkshakes, they all mysteriously disappear, and then you have to find out what was going on all on your own? If they were going to exclude me no matter what, I’d rather it be out in the open then them feeling like they have to walk on eggshells and keep secrets so that I’m not offended.

      3. Traveler*

        There are just people like this out in the world. They just don’t understand those social cues, or realize they are there. I doubt he means it personally – its probably more of him being focused on what he can do for his team to increase morale. You’re not on his team so buying you food or inviting you to parties is not going to benefit his work process in any way. He’s probably seeing those things as business transactions, not as a slight to you. I know it still hurts though and can feel personal.

        1. Chriama*

          I agree that it’s probably less a deliberate exclusion than just a lack of awareness. He doesn’t assign you work or pay you, so you aren’t on his radar. The burger and milkshake/Christmas party thing was a company thing, and you aren’t part of his company.

          The birthday thing could go either way. A grandchild being born is a much bigger milestone than a single birthday. It would have been nice for him to remember your birthday, but the events aren’t equivalent. Also, did he know it was your birthday? Is there a reason he should have known (e.g. it was on the calendar in the shared kitchen, or you’d mentioned it to him less than a week ago)?

          Overall, it sucks. This would totally bother me too (I actually experienced the same thing with my roommmate — when my parents came to visit me they took us both out for breakfast, but when her parents come they barely say hi to me) but I don’t think there’s anything you can do. If your boss is getting invited to theses things you could maybe mention it to him.

          1. Sadface*

            To Traveler and Chriama:

            That’s what annoys me about all this. The fact that it’s “purely” business without any regard for human feelings. Sure, business-wise, I’m not his employer, but human-wise, I’m a person who’s by myself most of the day, and excluding me from things like that is really obvious since it’s just me. Shouldn’t there be some basic decency involved here? Is it really going to cause that much trouble if you invite one more person to your Christmas party, or you ask me if I want something to eat with you? Or at the very least – don’t boast about all these things to my face? We all get along and I consider us friends (agents and staff), so I don’t understand why it’s such a big deal to include me in “agent B” events.

            I know it sounds childish, but it really freakin’ hurts :/

            1. Traveler*

              I just don’t think there’s anyway of addressing it with him that won’t come off on the bottom line as “You should spend money on me”, even if that’s not at all what your issue is. It doesn’t sound childish – I’ve known people like this most of my life in both business and personal, and I’ve just come to terms with the fact that some people aren’t and probably never will be “thoughtful” in that way. That said – I wouldn’t be buying him gifts either.

            2. fposte*

              Can I gently address the “I consider us friends” thing? I think that may be part of the problem here, because you’re not friends–you’re co-workers who get along. That may be the same to you, but that’s not the norm or something you can assume they share. I think one reason for your disappointment is that you’re considering this relationship to be something that the other people involved don’t, so you’re feeling like you’ve been let down in friendship terms in a situation isn’t a friendship to them, even if you want it to be.

              So maybe it’s about adjusting to the fact this isn’t a bad friendship but simply a business relationship, and adjusting your expectations for social interaction accordingly.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Ah the difference between being friends and being friendly. One does not equal the other.

            3. Aisling*

              Would you expect your agent to include 4 other people? I get that it’s awkward, and Agent B really shouldn’t be talking about it in front of someone who isn’t invited, but that’s the only problem here. It sounds like your agent doesn’t do stuff like this, while the other agent does, but the other agent is not obligated to include you.

              I don’t mean this to sound snarky, but – this isn’t the playground, where if you don’t have enough for everyone, you shouldn’t bring anything. This is business, and he’s probably treating his employees out of his pocket. He’s being rude to talk about it, but as for not being invited – you have to let that go.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I don’t have any advice, but I wanted to say that that does suck.

      I would feel like crying too, especially if it was after a tough day/week and this was the last straw.

    3. MJ*

      While you are not technically part of their team, you might promote yourself as part of the social group by doing things for the group, like bringing in bagels for everyone every once in a while or bringing in cupcakes on your own birthday so everyone can celebrate with you. (This is not to suggest that you are responsible for his being a jerk.)

      1. Sadface*

        I have done that many times before! I’ll get donuts for the office, candy, etc. We’re a very small and friendly environment, it’s just that when it comes to things related exclusively to “agent B,” he seems to never include me because of technicality.

        1. MJ*

          I couldn’t leave one person out either, but as it is upsetting you so, can you find a way to frame this for yourself where you can take it less personally? If you were to imagine the other boss was trying to come at this with positive intent, what might that intent be? Maybe

          – he thinks your boss does nice things for you and he doesn’t want his team to be left out
          – he thinks if he includes you then your boss will feel like he/she would have to include all of HIS team when the situation is reversed
          – there is an agreement among agents that this is how it is supposed to be done
          – he thinks you would not want to be included in their work conversations
          – he is trying to build morale in his group by investing in a bonding experience, and bringing in an extra person makes the event social instead of business, when he is aiming for business

    4. Canadamber*

      Oh my God, that’s just the worst. :( I’m pretty sure that I would actually cry, in this case. Just leave, get into my car, and bawl my way out into traffic and out towards home.

      1. Sadface*

        I did actually cry lol. I just waited until I actually left the office to do it. I didn’t wanna bust into tears at my desk, so I got out of there as fast as I could!

    5. Colette*

      I don’t know – I don’t think he’s obligated to offer the same things to non-employees that he offers to his employees. It’s a little different in this case because you all work in the same area – but it’s not unusual for a manager to do something with just her team, even if there are others who sit nearby who aren’t invited.

      1. Sadface*

        “OtherS”, plural, yes. One person – that’s just mean. At least that’s how I see it. :/

        1. fposte*

          I understand that your feelings are hurt by it, but would you feel the same if he gave out a cash bonus to his employees but not to you? This is in the same vein as that–it’s a perk for the people who work for him, not a social thing for the people in his space.

          1. Sadface*

            It’s not the Christmas party or the burgers/shakes in and of itself, it’s HOW he’s doing everything right in front of my face without any regard for how it would make me feel. It’s one thing to not invite me to your company party, but it’s another to go around talking about it all day, asking people what they wanna eat, etc. I personally would never do that because [I thought] that was common sense/courtesy. Never mind the fact that he offered me leftovers. Um, no thanks, I don’t want leftovers from the party I was clearly not invited to.

            1. Colette*

              But you’re taking it personally, when it’s not a personal invitation. It’s a business invitation.

              Would you feel the same way if he talked about a meeting he was inviting his employees to?

            2. Windchime*

              I would try framing it differently, honestly. How is he doing it “in your face”? You’ve mentioned that a couple of times. Is he coming up to your desk and tauntingly talking about the party while smirking at you? That’s what I think of when I hear “in my face”. Or is he simply talking to his employees about it in your hearing? If it’s the latter, then I would really try to frame it differently. This is a business thing, and these are his employees. You’re not being excluded because they don’t like you; he’s just having a team function and since you’re not part of his team, you’re not included. It’s that simple. Try not to see it as a personal thing and maybe that will help?

      2. fposte*

        Yeah, I think this is reading the personal into work. The guy is spending his own money on his own employees and addressing his own employees. That’s utterly appropriate. His goal is the work with his employees, not the morale of his non-employees, and buying him a present won’t change that.

        I do understand how disheartening it can be not to be included–I once spent an afternoon gardening across from a neighborhood barbecue that didn’t include me, for instance (I barely knew the hosts, so it was utterly fair, but still made me feel self-conscious), and I think it’s fine if he does invite you. But I don’t think of this as an exclusion any more than his not hiring Sadface is an exclusion. This isn’t a clique–it’s a category that she’s genuinely not in.

        1. Sadface*

          Again, not a matter of what, but how. We can agree to disagree, but if the roles were reversed, I wouldn’t exclude one extra person in the first place (just to be a good human being, no matter what business technicalities there are), and even if I did, I wouldn’t rub it in their face.

          1. fposte*

            Sadface, you’re still talking about *social* manners for a workplace thing. (Does he invite your boss to stuff, by the way? If not, then you’re not the only one excluded.)

            I’m not saying you can’t feel sad or excluded–just pointing out that what he’s doing isn’t actually rude, no matter what you’d do in his position, and maybe if you think of it as his work relationship with his staff, it won’t hurt your feelings as much.

            1. Jennifer*

              I disagree that it isn’t rude. I think it’s terribly rude. Common courtesy and good manners are very important in an office. I’m sorry that this other agent doesn’t get that. Even if he didn’t do it all the time, once in a while would be nice. I would also stop bringing things in for everyone. If your courtesy isn’t being returned, then just stop extending it. I’m not saying be rude in return, just stop including them if they’re not including you. Do his employees even care? My office is configured where there are two teams (mine is one of them) and then 3 other people who are “solos”– their teams are in other parts of the country. The two managers in the area include everyone for everything. We celebrate the “solos” birthdays and invite them to our holiday parties. It’s no extra effort and worth it to promote a congenial atmosphere in the place we spend 8-10 hours per day.

              1. Sadface*

                That’s honestly how things should be done, Jennifer. I don’t like this callousness I see so often in business settings, where nothing is “personal, it’s just business.” I may or may not be in the minority here, but if I had to choose between “business” customs or just “being a decent human being,” being a decent human being wins out every time. Though I will concede that I need to lower my expectations of people and not go out of my way to be courteous to people who obviously don’t appreciate it.

                1. fposte*

                  This isn’t callousness or not being decent, though, and I think you’re talking yourself into nursing the hurt by categorizing it as his moral failing and your higher standards. What if you let go the idea of his wronging you and instread shrugged, saying to yourself “It’s not like I invite him out to lunch either”?

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I want to totally echo fposte here. You’re applying social manners rather than professional manners to this situation. This is no different than a manager taking her whole team out and excluding someone not on her team — that’s just how this stuff works sometimes. I understand it doesn’t feel great, but I think you’re actually making it a lot worse on yourself by not choosing to just tweak your perspective on it a little.

              1. Sadface*

                I know on one hand I just need to adjust the way I look at things, but on the other hand I still don’t think it’s right. Even the manager example you cited – if I had a team of people, and *one* other person in the entire office who wasn’t on my team, I’d rather include that person out of basic decency, rather than exclude them for “business” reasons. Granted, other people may be less sensitive to these sort of things than I am, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with just being a good person.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  The problem is that you’re defining “being a good person” in ways that not everyone agrees with. This guy really isn’t doing something heinous, but you seem really, really bothered by it.

                  There’s a lot of “I must just have really high standards for myself” and “it’s just basic decency” all over your comments here and, well, I think it’s misplaced. Sure, I can see why this stings, but your reaction to it seems disproportionate and heavily invested in them seeing the relationship as something that many people don’t see workplace relationships as, and it makes me wonder what else is going on there.

                2. Colette*

                  What about if inviting that one person made the event more than you’re willing to spend? Should you cancel the event for everyone, or just keep it to the people on your team?

                  What if the intention was to have your team members do something fun together to build relationships between the team? Would you still invite someone who wasn’t on your team?

                3. Aisling*

                  It doesn’t matter that you’re one person, and it seems like you’re stuck on that. It matters that you don’t directly work for the other agent. It’s rude of him to talk about it in front of you, but it’s not rude of him to not include you. That’s just business.

                4. Not So NewReader*

                  @Alison. Exactly. We are not talking about what this guy did that was not inclusive of our OP here.

                  This is why our words are of little consolation.

    6. Cautionary tail*

      Your situation is similar to that of contractors in some offices I’ve been in. We work side by side & we all go out together for personal lunches, but when it comes to company sponsored events like holiday meals, team spirit building activities, group training where an instructor is being brought in, etc. they are intentionally excluded.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I think this sucks, Sadface.

      But, it does not matter what I think. This guy is just going to keep doing this.

      I think as another poster said that you should stop or greatly reduce the amount you give these people. You are too heavily invested in them. Stop. I not saying be mean to them but for heaven’s sake quit buying them things.
      You buy some goodies once a year that is plenty. Baby presents? No way. Just NO.

      Another part that I see here is that you are saying your own boss is not around much. I think this could be key. I would absolutely hate that. I like having my boss bubble to the surface on a fairly regular basis. (My boss generates most of my work- that is how the work has to flow. No boss, not much work.)

      I find it interesting that your own boss does none of this stuff for you but it’s the other boss that ticks you off. Why not put the blame where it belongs? Would it kill your boss to bring you a coffee and a donut once in a blue moon? Oh, wait. He isn’t there much. So let’s see, you have a boss that is never there and does not show much appreciation?

      I know one thing. If I had to sit and keep working while everyone else was whooping it up- I would just call my own boss and say “They are having a party here and I can’t concentrate on my work. I am going home.” If he pushes back, then you add, “Well, I have to make phone calls and clients can hear them over the phone. I don’t think this is a good idea for me to be doing.” Or something similar to back up your first statement. Then do it, go home.

      Another boss is not going to show you the appreciation that your own boss should be showing.

      Sadface, if you cannot find a peaceful place to rest this load then it might be new job time. Because the road you’re using is only going to get tougher.

    8. samaD*

      You say the office is owned by two different agents – are they one company or two?

  43. CalicoK*

    I turned in my two weeks notice a week and a half ago. Since I’ve turned in my notice, I’ve been miserable. My boss is giving me the freeze and my VP (I sit outside their office) has not acknowledged I even quit! Yes, my VP knows I’m quitting b/c she told certain staff members I’m leaving in a email I wasn’t cc:ed on. I’m done with all my work and I’m just sitting here doing nothing. Is it unprofessional to leave before the two weeks are up? I hate the two hour+ commute to and from work to basically do nothing while everyone gives me the cold shoulder. Any advice?

    1. Sadface*

      My sister was in a very similar situation. She gave her two weeks and NOBODY acknowledged it until the last day. I say – it’s just two weeks, tough it out. You don’t wanna burn bridges or leave a bad final impression by quitting early. Maybe you’ll get the acknowledgment you want on the last day like my sister did, and if you don’t, oh well, you’ve got a nice new job to look forward to! You can do it :)

      1. Adam V*

        +1

        Tough it out unless it gets worse – the cold shoulder is much better than being told “you’re being disloyal for leaving” or being outright abused.

        At the moment, you’re getting paid to sit there. Enjoy it while it lasts. :)

        1. CalicoK*

          I’m going to do my best to stay until the bitter end. I’ll don’t anticipate things will get worse… I’ll probably just become more invisible as my final day gets closer.

      2. Chriama*

        I mentioned below that you’ll look bad if you leave. If they’re planning something for your last day, it would look even worse to leave before then. Seriously, it’s a couple days. Stick it out and spend as much time as possible daydreaming about your new job.

        1. CalicoK*

          LOL, no one is planning anything for my last day. There’s only four people in my department. Half of them will be on vacation on my last day.

    2. Chriama*

      I’m a little hazy on the etiquette surrounding notice periods. Why is someone supposed to acknowledge you’re leaving to your face? If you were close, I guess it would be hurtful that they don’t offer you congrats on your new position, but if the relationship is purely professional it could be that they’re so caught up in preparing for your departure (reassigning your work, etc) that they just haven’t thought about it.

      Overall though, I’d stick it out. You have a couple days left and they aren’t being actively disrespectful, so you have more to lose by not being the bigger person than you have to gain by leaving right before your notice is up.

    3. Colette*

      Have you asked either of them what they’d like you to get done before you leave?

      I’m not sure I’d go out of my way to acknowledge someone was leaving if they hadn’t told me themselves – I’d feel odd bringing it up.

      1. CalicoK*

        When I resigned, my boss was at a complete loss. She didn’t know what she wanted to from b/c she said she’s never had anyone resign while she was manager. Luckily, I already had a transition plan ready b/c I wanted to make sure my coworkers weren’t scrambling to figure things out after I leave.

        I asked my manager how she wanted to handle telling people in my department about my exit. She said she wanted to do the telling. I work pretty closely with my VP so I guess I’m surprised that she didn’t want feedback as to why I’m leaving? She asked everyone else that left before me (there’s been a mass exodus over the past year).

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Tough out the two or three days you have left. You gave your word that you would work, honor your own word. If nothing else you will have your own self-respect intact as you walk out the door the last day.

          I said something similar to another person above here: Tell yourself that the Big Freeze Out is just more proof that you made the right choice to move on.

          As an aside maybe the VP has heard all she wants to hear about why everyone is leaving. Probably everyone is giving similar reasons.

  44. HRNewbie*

    Hi

    I have a ‘am I being paranoid’ question.

    The company I work for has just merged with another company. They do the same sort of thing as us and have a similar set up. Up until now I have been told that the ‘me in the other company’ wants to step back from HR and concentrate on Office Management and that I would be taken over HR for whole company.

    But, recently, as the merger has reached a staff integration level, the lady who does the same job as me over there has become incredibly distant. I have just found out that there have been emails to Directors naming me specifically as being involved in/aware of financial arrangements which have gone wrong which I have not been anywhere near. My boss is refusing to get involved in this as he ‘does not want to upset the apple cart’ and is avoiding doing my appraisal where he would have to tell me where I would be in the company when it merges.

    Alarm bells are starting to go off regarding the lack of support, but, I am not sure if I am just being jumpy because of the uncertainty with the merger.

    What would you advise?

    1. Adam V*

      Prep your resume and your network – if things go south, it may happen quickly, and you’ll want to be able to jump straight into your search.

      Also, see if you can get current coworkers to vouch for you. It doesn’t sound like your current boss would be a great reference at this point, so it’d be good to have other people at the company who’d be more positive about your tenure there.

      And last, but not least, if you’ve got any way to prove you’re not responsible for the financial arrangements they’re talking about, it might be enough to get you a pretty decent severance while you search. However, it sounds like you’ve got a target on your back for some reason – so even if your proof *could* save your job, it might be best to start looking anyway.

      1. Adam V*

        And no, you don’t sound paranoid to me.

        Do you know who the emails are coming *from*? Did you get copies of them?

        1. HRNewbie*

          I have been forwarded the emails from the other person who seems to have a target firmly on his back but was copied into the email. It seems there is a personality conflict with one of the Directors and my boss, which is coming through to his direct reports who handled and conquered difficult situations leading to the merger.

          The emails are coming from the woman who does my job in the other office, and the direct reports of the Director.

          It seems to be the roles that are duplicated or can be merged between offices – or there is some form of competition (pathetic I know) – mud is beginning to be slung from the other company.

          I can easily prove that I had nothing to do with the agreements, emails, jobs, calls, conversations etc. and the fact that there would be no reason for me to be involved in them. The feedback I am getting from managers other than my Direct Manager is that I am doing well and reliable, but this sort of thing makes me really uneasy.

          It is so frustrating as the amount of time, effort and skill that went into getting through this both morale and admin wise has come down to who can make what stick.

          1. The Real Ash*

            I would definitely hold on to that documentation just in case, all the while I was working on a resume and putting out applications.

          2. Adam V*

            Your boss may be unwilling to offer support if he’s worried about his own position, but ideally the two of you would be able to go to someone at your own company and say “I’m concerned with some things that [employees at other company] are saying; apparently there’s been some miscommunication, and they’re of the opinion that we were responsible for [snafu], when that’s not the case at all [as can be proved by these emails].”

            You can probably leave it there, and they’d get the message – “We don’t want higher-ups to think we’re incompetent and should be replaced by our opposite numbers at the other company”.

            But again, it sounds like people are playing really dirty pool, and you may be best served by getting out before the company can let you go for “cause”.

          3. A Non*

            Grr. Your boss really should be going to bat for you here. It sounds like you’re getting caught in a political crossfire. Not fair at all, but it happens sometimes. I agree that this is a good time to prep your resume and put out feelers. At the very least, it’ll remind you that you have options and help you feel in control.

            Are any of the managers that like you hiring?

          4. Not So NewReader*

            Who initiates the emails? Who is making the accusation? The lady who does your job at the other office?

            1. HRNewbie*

              Yes. Apparently following a structured ‘for the avoidance of doubt I [paraphrased] I had nothing to do with decision making regarding the Chocolate Teapot contract, please see emails 1,2 & 3 for confirmation as to my dealings with the Chocolate Teapot company.’ I was able to dig out emails from both the past and recently to the lady in the other office clearly saying several times that apart from calling for an engineer and taking messages I had nothing to do with the details of the contract.

              After that email, there were several responses profusely apologising for the misunderstanding and promises that if she had any questions regarding my involvement she will call to check information.
              Apparently my boss also called the other office when he actually read the email, and understood why we were so concerned.

              Have a feeling this is just going to be one of many things I am going to have to bat off.

              Thank you all for your advice, I have updated my CV and forwarded to contacts, as well as approached a few companies that I would really like to work for.

  45. Trixie*

    Considering getting certified with Les Mills Body Flow. Anyone familiar with the program have recommendations or cautions?

    1. Ali*

      My gym has the Les Mills programs, but I’m not certified in any of them. I could just tell you about the process from what I’ve researched (I’ve considered the Sh’Bam certification for when I get more experience teaching Zumba; figured it would be best to get familiar with a less demanding program first), but that’s probably not what you’d be looking for.

      I go to BodyPump 1-2 times a week and I really want to try Flow, though! I’ve also done CXWorx a little bit.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Loooooooooooove BodyFlow. But no idea about the certification process. I just like to take classes. :)

  46. Managing interns*

    I have a question regarding managing interns. I’m currently working with an intern who is rather combative when it comes to taking instruction and a general know-it-all. As in if I ask him to edit a design or make improvements to a text or critique his work in any way I have to quantify why these changes are necessary. Now I have no problem with this, particularly when working with someone who has very little work experience and may not actually understand why we operate in a certain way. I also have no problem listening to well-thought-out critiques or ideas to improve how we work. However, in 9/10 cases this guy is not able to back up his suggestions with any evidence. In fact, his opinions are largely based on him “not thinking it should be done that way” or how he “doesn’t think this way will work.”

    This has been an incredibly frustrating thing for me to deal with and is really causing tension between me and this intern. On the one hand, I want our interns to be able to operate in an environment where they feel as if they can speak up when they have ideas, but on the other this intern makes me want to rip my hair out. How do you tell an intern that there is no way we are going to change the operating systems of our organization based on their gut instinct?

    I think this would be less annoying if the work he handed in was excellent and that he’s always on top of his tasks, but he is a mediocre worker (at best) who tends to blame any errors in his work on everything and everyone but himself.

    1. Adam V*

      I think you need to stop discussing it with him and tell him “moving forward, if I ask you to do things in a certain way, I’m going to need you to understand that there’s a reason behind it, and even if I don’t tell you the reason, and even if you disagree with it, I’m going to need you to do it that way.”

      If he continues to argue, you could say “I’m sorry, but if you can’t complete the work, I’m going to need to pass it off to someone else and we’ll need to discuss whether we’re a good fit for your continued internship.”

    2. Colette*

      I think those things are related – people who do excellent work tend to be people who are open to feedback.

      I’d suggest a big picture conversation – i.e. “When I give you feedback about your work, you immediately get defensive. I need you to take the time to think about the feedback. If you believe that there is information I don’t have, I’m open to discussing that, but otherwise you need to focus on the changes you need to make. Also, I like to hear your suggestions about how the business can change. However, in order to evaluate whether we should make the change, we need to understand what issues the change will solve, as well as how much time and money it will take to do. Please give some thought to what problems you’re trying to solve and what you believe the benefits will be before suggesting change.”

      1. fposte*

        Aren’t there a dozen AAM discussions of this? Here’s one that has some relevance, though I know it’s come up more recently (perhaps in open threads):

        https://www.askamanager.org/2012/04/employee-gives-me-the-silent-treatment-when-i-give-him-feedback.html

        But basically, frame it as a behavior that’s hurting him and that you’re requiring him to curb. He’ll likely push back when you say that, and you can point to that as an example right there that it’s a kneejerk habit rather than a considered response, and talk about it in those terms. You’re not trying to keep him from ever giving you feedback, you’re redirecting him from a problematic habit, so you might consider offering an alternative feedback stream that he can use *selectively*–“If you use this every time I’m closing this loophole, but if after a night’s sleep you still have a concern that’s particularly important in an individual case, you can email it to me,” for instance.

    3. Traveler*

      +1 to what the others said. I would also try to find a tactful way to remind him he is doing an internship to learn how its done in the business world, and this is one of the aspects he’ll have to learn.

      1. fiat lux*

        Yes, and if the intern is still in school or a recent graduate, it would be good to have a general conversation about different norms in the working world vs the classroom. His habit of discussing and debating everything probably served him well as a student!

    4. Chriama*

      I think you have a lousy employee. It could be immaturity or it could be who he is (we all know awful coworkers).

      It really depends on how much responsibility you want to take for making this internship a learning experience. You could have a conversation with him about the pattern of behaviour you’ve noticed, describe how this will affect his career, and tell him what you expect him to do going forward. Be specific and give examples (e.g. If you have a suggestion for how the design should be better I need you to present specific evidence that justifies your position.)

      1. Managing interns*

        Thanks for the advice and link to the old post — it’s always helpful to see examples of how the conversation could go. I don’t think I’ve been as direct as I need to be, so I’m going to work on changing that. I also think the comment about the different norms between school and work is an important point that I hadn’t considered. Thanks again!

  47. AAA*

    Hi Everyone! I have a really specific question but figure I’ll throw it out there. I’ve noticed that there are quite a few regular commentators on AAM who have PhDs. I’m hoping some of you who are working outside academia might be able to help me.

    I have a PhD in Anthropology (finished Dec 2012) and I’m looking to transition into a non-academic role within my field of study. I’m wondering if anyone has any advice as to how to package the kind of skill-set required of [social science] PhDs, e.g. independent research, critical thinking, writing, project management, etc. as something palatable for a business audience. (I’ve already mined Versatile PhD and like sources—that’s how I found AAM!)

    I think my problem is that my degree is in Anthropology, which makes people think “bones” or the “unga-bunga people”–not strategic business insights. I actually did my fieldwork examining ethical corporate practice. My dissertation examined for-profit programs for positive social and environmental impact. I would like to break into working in this field or the non-profit sector.

    I think I’m stuck in the simultaneously under-and-over qualified bubble–plus I think I’m confusing people when my degree is in Anthropology, my work history is mostly teaching and administrative, but I’m applying for entry level jobs in supply chain management or corporate reporting, or something else that sounds unrelated but that I actually know quite a bit about.

    I have 5ish years of (mostly academic) work experience and a few internships plus my fieldwork experience. I’m looking for anything entry or just above entry level, but have gotten feedback that I’m overqualified, though I definitely don’t have the experience within the field to go for higher-level positions. I’m mostly interested in research and analytical roles, as I think those are the ones I’m most qualified for.

    Any advice on how to package myself?

    1. Stephanie*

      My buddy swears by the Professor Is In: http://theprofessorisin.com/

      She seems like an Alison for graduate students. She’s also just a good writer–I’m not even in the academy, but I find her posts really interesting.

    3. Annie O*

      Entry level? F* that.

      I’ll share my experience, for whatever it’s worth. I couldn’t even land an interview for an entry-level or mid-level position after leaving academia. So I started applying for director positions, and then I started getting calls.

      Stop saying anthropology, unless you’re putting the word “applied” in front of it. Stop using academic lingo when there are business equivalents available. And start thinking about concrete ways that your education and experience will bring value to the business. Don’t focus on your qualifications, focus on the value you bring!

    4. JC*

      Hi AAA,

      Welcome to the non-academic world! If you haven’t already, I’d suggest looking at http://www.versatilephd.com. It’s a website that concentrates on PhDs looking outside of academia. Sometimes the forums there aren’t the most useful, because the posters haven’t left academia yet and so don’t know more than you do, but there are nuggets of great advice. And if you’re university subscribes you will have access to a section of the site that has other people’s success stories, examples of their resumes, etc.

      I don’t have concrete advice for you, but wanted to let you know I’ve been there. I got my PhD in psychology 5 years ago and now work as a researcher in a nonacademic organization, but in a topic unrelated to what I did in grad school and using methods I did not use in grad school. I think it’s definitely easier to sell yourself for a role doing research, even if the research is far from what you used to do, because the people involved will speak a language closer to what you’re used to.

    5. Mimmy*

      I’ve been thinking on-and-off of getting a PhD, but can’t seem to make myself take that leap of faith. First, it does seems like many PhDs are expected to stay in academia. I guess it depends on the field (I’d most likely do social work), so I am pleased to see resources for those who don’t want to go into academia as that seems to be the most common post-doctorate route. I do remember seeing a couple of these when I’d asked about this last year.

      I hope this is okay, but I have my own question: One of my lingering qualms is that many PhDs seem to travel, whether it’s to present at conferences or as part of research / other major projects. I just don’t think I have the mental endurance to do all that traveling, especially since it’d entail me being away from my husband a lot (no, he would not want to travel with me). Is this an expectation of PhDs? Again, I imagine it depends on the field, but I look through bios of people in my areas of interest, it seems like they have an extensive background of presentations and projects–I can’t imagine it’d all be local!!

      1. fposte*

        Do you mean traveling while getting the PhD? I would say that yes, it’s an expectation that you’ll travel some to conferences; other travel will depend on what your actual research is. You’ll probably start with less travel and then it’ll ramp up, since it’s not likely that there’s an expectation for you to travel to tons of conferences you’re not presenting at, which you won’t be right at the start. I wouldn’t go in expecting fewer than three or four conferences per year during your peak research years in my field (though it wouldn’t invariably happen); however, that’s often only a couple of days for a domestic conference, since you don’t often have to stay from start to finish.

        Is there a doc student in the local program that you could have a coffee talk with about the experience? They’ll have better insights about qualify of life than the professors.

        1. Mimmy*

          I was thinking more in terms of after getting the PhD and active in your field but NOT as a member of university faculty.

      2. AAA*

        It definitely depends on what you get your PhD in. You probably wouldn’t have to travel too much (outside of conferences) for a PhD in social work. But I love to travel and it was one of the reasons I chose Anthropology–for a PhD in Anthro you’re expected to conduct 1-2 years of fieldwork, usually abroad. (Not always though; some people choose their fieldwork close to home.)

  48. The Real Ash*

    Alright, so I turned down the interview that I had scheduled for this week. And I turned down the two (!) other interviews I was called about on Monday. Why couldn’t these jobs have come around last year?! Oh well…

    Oh the personal front, a move date has been set, so things are a lot clearer in that regard. Now I’m going to spend my remaining time donating / sorting / packing / junking all of my stuff, as well as working on a new version of my resume and looking at jobs in the area. :)

    1. Bryan*

      I’m happy to hear the move is set so that you have more certainty about the future.

  49. Ali*

    Did anyone else read about the blogger who sent in a bikini photo to Shape and was denied having the picture published in her success story?

    I feel bad about admitting this, but even though I think it’s incredible how much she lost weight, I don’t think she looks as good in a bikini as she believes she does. As someone who has a decent amount of weight to lose (I officially need to lose 80 per BMI guidelines but would be happy to lose 50-60), I admit seeing all her loose skin doesn’t really motivate me. It scares me to think that could be *my* body when and if all that weight comes off. I know this woman was just trying to be “real” and is getting a ton of praise, but I would never put myself out there looking like that. But then again, I’m sensitive to criticism about my looks and body type. I feel like she could’ve just chosen a different picture if she really wanted to be featured, or sent in more than one to begin with.

    Again, she obviously accomplished a lot, but I’m not totally on her side here.

    1. Audiophile*

      I completely understand how you feel. I need to lose about 80lbs to really fall into the healthy spectrum. And I was really shocked when I scrolled down and saw her loose skin. I certainly commend her for taking the initiative and losing all that weight. But I know my own comfort level, and I’d never be comfortable in a bikini.

    2. Del*

      Honestly, I think things like that are really valuable. The images of “perfect” bodies that we are fed are very unrealistic, and I think it is a good thing to be more realistic both about what human bodies look like and about weight-loss outcomes.

      1. Del*

        To add to that — what you feel comfortable in is up to you! I applaud her for wanting to put bikini pics out there, but it’s definitely not something you should feel impelled or driven to do.

        I don’t think there should be a bar for “if you don’t meet the following aesthetic, don’t wear a bikini.” The only bar (other than “is it appropriate for the situation” which has nothing to do with the body of the wearer) should be “do you feel comfortable wearing this?”

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I saw some minor British royal of late middle age getting body-shamed on a blog for her post-childbirth loose skin in a bikini shot (which, by the way, was a casual swimming shot and not a glamour pose, so it might not even have been taken without her consent in the first place). It made me pretty furious.

          I love those occasional slide shows that appear showing celebrities’ unretouched images vs. their retouched images. It is amazing how conscious you can be of the prescribed concepts of beauty and still get misled by the fantasies we see all the time. I think anybody can keep their body private if they wont, but I don’t think bodies have to earn their right to be seen by aspiring toward that airbrushed idea.

          1. fposte*

            I mean that the royal’s picture might not have been taken *with* her consent. It seemed like a nasty pap snap.

          2. Del*

            Absolutely! I’m a flaming advocate of people being at liberty to wear anything from a burqa to a bikini regardless of their body shape, scars, size, what have you.

            1. fposte*

              I’m really impressed by http://theshapeofamother.com/ which is where women post their post-pregnancy bodies. It’s something people really don’t get to see much, and there’s a mixture of people whose bodies have been altered by the experience and those whose haven’t; I think it’s really a relief for women not to feel like their C-section scars and dangly bits don’t have to be their shameful secret.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      I think it really depends. I wasn’t that shocked because I have watched one of those weight loss reality shows, the one that does an individual for a year. But I need to lose 100 pds to be healthy, and no matter what, I know in the end I’ll still look better.

      But I think it depends on how old you are, how much weight you lose and how fast you lose it. For me, when I started losing the 60 pds. I lost last year, I didn’t really notice a change in how I looked physically until I took a break for a couple of weeks, and I definitely noticed afterwards it had given my body/skin time to adjust to the weight I was losing. If your skin is elastic enough and you lose weight in a healthy way and a healthy timeline, I doubt the skin would be that much of an issue. But if it is, you can have it removed, that was what happened at the end of the year in the weight loss show (I really can’t remember the name), if they met their goal weight, the show paid for them to have the excess skin removed since they would lose the weight so fast. And if the skin actually gives you health problems, I could think insurance might actually pay.

      1. Audiophile*

        Was it “Extreme Weight Loss”? I’ve seen that one and a few of the people had the skin removal surgery.

    4. Blue Anne*

      Yes, I saw that too and I kind of agree. Partly. I dunno, it was… she obviously managed a huge accomplishment that was the result of a ton of hard work, but I didn’t feel like there was much effort put into the actual photo. It kind of bugged me that her bikini top an bottom didn’t match, more than anything else, honestly.

      But then I sort of feel like a horrible person for that. So I dunno.

      1. samaD*

        and her posture! if she’d been standing up straight and placed her hands lower it just would have been a better picture in general. Not contorted to show no sag, no sucking in, no half-turns or anything, just the standing up straight one does when checking yourself in the mirror before going out and slouching the rest of the day….

        I guess I should feel bad that I’m commenting on the aesthetics of the picture, but….that’s the only thing I have a problem with! It’s wonderful she lost the weight and put a ‘post-loss’ picture out there, and hopefully it will help others to feel less distressed if they’re a bit wobbly after weight-loss too, and she looks great! ….but it’s just a bad picture. Surely the magazine could have arranged a professional shot (not retouched), or just asked for another (un-awkwardly-posed) shot?

    5. Stephanie*

      First, I wouldn’t get too hung up on BMI. It’s more just a general guideline. If you’re really muscular, you’ll have a higher-than-average BMI. Also, some ethnic groups tend have BMIs that fall outside the range more (blacks tend to have higher BMIs; Asians tend to have lower BMIs).

      Second, unsure. I didn’t think the picture was super-flattering, but I liked that it was realistic.

    6. Persephone Mulberry*

      I don’t think it’s about “she doesn’t look as great as she thinks she does in a bikini.” I’m sure she knows exactly how she looks and what people think, and I think that’s the point. Extra skin IS a reality of losing a large amount of weight, and one that fitness magazines/blogs/websites tend to gloss over BECAUSE it’s not pretty and shiny. Kudos to her, IMO, for being brave enough to put herself out there and for not backing down.

      1. Nina*

        I agree. She knows how she looks and the excess skin isn’t sexy or flattering, so the magazine won’t publish it. Health magazines love to promote the idea that when you lose the weight, all is well and there are no other issues to worry about. The excess skin is the honest side of what can happens after a dramatic weight loss, but that won’t bring in the consumer dollars SHAPE is after. They’re a business first, and health promoter second.

    7. The Real Ash*

      I don’t think she looks as good in a bikini as she believes she does

      Such incredible bodyshaming here. Just because she doesn’t fit what you think is appropriate for a bikini body doesn’t mean that she shouldn’t be allowed to feel good about wearing one. As a fat chick myself, I understand the internalized “Oh my god look at the fat person!” hate that I think a lot of fat people share, but you should be applauding her, not judging or shaming her.

      1. winona*

        +1! The only requirements for having a bikini-ready body are a body, a bikini, and the desire to combine the two.

        1. rollcake*

          ++1! Not only is this a realistic depiction of a potential effect of massive weight loss, but telling her she shouldn’t appear in a bikini *now* is the same sort of body-shaming that makes people say fat people shouldn’t appear in bikinis. You don’t get to dictate how someone dresses based on how you think they should dress.

      2. S*

        I mean… yes and no. I don’t think that saying “she doesn’t look great in a bikini” (a matter of personal taste) is the same thing as saying “she shouldn’t wear a bikini.” Personally, I think that the magazine’s decision is understandable, because most people don’t want to look like that (and from what I understand, losing weight in a slow, steady way will generally not result in large amounts of excess skin) so that particular photo wouldn’t be as inspirational to a lot of people as other shots might have been.

    8. C Average*

      I admit I was startled by the picture when I first saw it, just because I’ve never seen such an honest post-weight loss photo. (It’s made me realize many of the post-weight loss photos I’ve seen probably involved some cosmetic changes either to the image or to the body in the image.)

      I think it’s really valuable and I’m glad the woman in the picture chose to share it, and I think it’s kind of awesome that she did so without apologizing, explaining, or attempting to frame the image as some particular phase of her weight loss story. She didn’t say she thought she looked good. She didn’t say she didn’t think she looked good. She just said, “I lost a bunch of weight, and here’s a picture of me now.”

      Good luck on your weight loss journey.

    9. Sydney*

      To me, that photo of her isn’t about looking good. It’s about strength, dedication and truth. Losing a significant amount of weight in a healthy manner is incredibly hard, and now she’s sharing her success story with the world.

      I find our looks-obsessed culture obnoxious for two reasons: on principle for trying to shove a bunch of squares, triangles, stars, etc. into round holes, and on a personal level because I don’t agree with the uniformity. Attraction is subjective, whether or not Hollywood+ wants to admit it. I think a person should be able to change physical characteristics about themselves if they want to, but it shouldn’t be due to a societal pressure to look like a child’s toy that doesn’t even have human proportions.

    10. The Other Dawn*

      The picture doesn’t bother me, but I can definitely understand why a magazine would say no to it: it’s too realistic and “real” doesn’t sell magazines.

      I had gastric bypass surgery in December and have lost 93 lbs. so far (I blog about it; click my avatar if you want to read about my random thoughts). I have about 50 more to go and that still puts me at the top of the “overweight” BMI category. I know for a fact that not all my skin will be taught when I’m done. I’m going to have lots of loose skin under my belly and upper arms. No amount of exercise will tighten all that skin. Will I have it removed? No idea. Depends on how bad it is and whether I have any skin issues.

      Would I wear a bikini and expose that skin? Probably not, but kudos to the woman in that photo for being brave enough to do that.

      1. samaD*

        if it’s any help, loose skin can tighten by itself – my tiny great-aunt lost ~100 pounds in her 40s and over time it just got better

  50. Canadamber*

    So, hey, accountants – just a few questions from a high school student thinking of going into the industry! :) I’m in Canada, so I don’t know if answers will vary across regions.

    1) What do accountants typically wear? I’ve heard that it tends to be a more formal/conservative sort of industry.

    2) I’ve also heard that it can be quite prestigious. I’m going to a not-so-prestigious university because I live close by… Is this going to screw me over in terms of making the big bucks later on?

    3) Um, what exactly do accountants DO? I know that it’s more than bookkeeping, but I’ve only taken two accounting classes so far and if it’s all just filling out balance sheets and income statements and cash flow statements, then that sounds really, really boring. But we did some financial analysis and whatnot, and it was actually really interesting. (Auditing doesn’t sound too bad, either.)

    Thanks in advance for any answers! :)

    Sort of unrelated, but…

    4) I think that eventually ending up in quality control would be cool. I’ve heard that getting a degree in business isn’t a bad idea for this, along with some sort of post-grad certificate; does anybody know anything more about this? I’m not really suited for engineering. My mom also suggested health and safety inspection types of things.

    1. De Minimis*

      1. A lot of offices do business casual on a day to day basis. Auditors will sometimes be required to wear ties [for men] if the client requests it, which sometimes happens with industries such as banking. In my previous workplace though, the joke was you wore a suit to the interview but that would be your last time ever having to wear one.

      2. School choice doesn’t tend to matter as much as with other fields because the concepts are generally taught the same way everywhere, although some schools can be more prestigious than others. The number one thing is if firms and other employers recruit out of the school.

      3. It really depends on what you focus on….a lot of schools will kind of push for public accounting, and that usually means audit or tax. But even within those there is a lot of variation…I worked at a large tax firm and you had people who never even saw a tax return. Many only worked with auditors on the portions of the audit that involved income tax, and others did research and development studies to see if clients could find additional ways to obtain tax credits for certain activities.

      I’ve never worked as an auditor but it’s completely different, a lot of the time they are basically doing statistical sampling of a client’s financial information in order to give an opinion as to whether the client’s financials are “fairly presented.” They will do things like contact a few of the customers or vendors to see if it’s likely that the information regarding revenue or payables are accurate.

      The thing about public accounting is that few people make it their career and they usually end up working in private industry after a few years. The positive thing about firms such as Big 4 is that if you work there a few years you have a good opportunity at getting a better job after you leave…a lot of people at my former job [which was located in Silicon Valley] have ended up working as tax mangers for places like Facebook.

      And of course there are the traditional “staff accountant” jobs that do tend to involve more bookkeeping type work, although these jobs can also be good especially with smaller companies in that you end up involved in a lot of different phases of the employer’s finances.

      I currently work for a federal agency and do governmental accounting, which is its own animal with unique rules and requirements. It is more like a staff accountant position where you have fairly consistent deadlines for various reports each month.

      It’s certainly worth taking a few more courses if you’re interested…the intermediate courses often are the make-or-break courses.

    2. S*

      Not an accountant, but I have friends who are so I can at least answer question 1 – if you’re in an accounting firm, then yes, it’ll be very conservative and formal (I’d guess plain suits most days). But if that’s not your style, it’s not necessarily a prohibitive thing, because if you instead work as an in-house accountant at a company/nonprofit org/whatever, then the culture and dress code will just be whatever the culture and dress code of that company or organization is.

      1. De Minimis*

        In my experience suits are pretty rare, the exception seems to be for upper level people if they are trying to woo potential clients, but that generally will only be at director level and above.

    3. Felicia*

      The only one I can answer is #2, because I know you’re in Canada. Here our universities aren’t really ranked in the same way as in the US, I think partially because we only have public universities, and they have private ones. I know they call McGill the “Harvard of Canada” sometimes, but we don’t really have an equivalent to the concept of Ivy league in Canada. Of course, informally, some Canadian universities have better reputations than others, but some universities being more prestigious than others is primarily an American concept. I can guarantee that where you went to university doesn’t matter at all, not even a little.

      Idk if your university has a co-op/internship program, but I know employers care far more about that than a particular “name brand” of a school, especially since that’s not much of a thing here.

      1. Canadamber*

        Well, there’s one internship that you take for like 4 months, and it’s within a class, and it’s not necessarily guaranteed to be paid or anything either so I don’t know what to think about that. :/ It’s a smaller satellite campus of a larger university.

        But, thanks! :) I’ve heard a few things about how not going to, like, U of Toronto or Queen’s or Laurier will totally screw me over in terms of being an accountant and it’s just been freaking me out. :$

        1. Felicia*

          People included Laurier as one of the prestigious ones? Informally Laurier doesn’t have the greatest reputation, so they don’t know what they’re talking about even more. I promise it doesn’t mater at all where you went to school. Employers here really don’t care where you went to school. They will care about that internship thing you mentioned (and you might want to try summer ones too, on your own), so I recommend caring about that. Lots of my friends who went to U of T Scarborough or U of T Missisauga just put U of T on their resume anyways though, because your degree is just going to say the name of the bigger university (at least there). Whoever is telling you those things is lying to you, especially because they included Laurier ;) No offense to anyone who went to Laurier, I heard it was a great school! It just doesn’t even have the informal prestige. And in Canada we don’t have much of that prestigious schools thing anyways.

          1. Canadamber*

            Well granted that’s mostly what we here in Grade 12 tend to gather because the admission average for Laurier is so high… but, yeah. Maybe I’m thinking of Waterloo? Perhaps? Queen’s is also one that I tend to hear about quite a lot.

            That’s good, though. I don’t want my decision to go to a school that’s not very popular to screw me over!

            1. Felicia*

              You’re probably thinking of Waterloo – that one does have a lot of informal prestige and tends to be where those super mega genius kids tend to go. Your decision of where you went to school won’t screw you over, and as soon as you enter university, no one will care what average you had when graduating high school ever again.

              By the end of your first year, you will learn that a lot of the things you were led to believe about university by your grade 12 teachers and your parents aren’t even a little true :)

              1. Canadamber*

                Okay good haha because I sort of slacked off in first semester and my grades were absolutely atrocious :$ trying to bring them up now, but the senioritis is making it hard!

              2. New HR*

                Waterloo Grad (not accounting) and former admissions officer here.

                Waterloo’s accounting program is particularly competitive because it has a full-cycle, integrated co-op program. After first year, you are in school for 4 months, work for 4 months, school 4 months, work 4 months, etc. until graduation. The program has some major connections to the big accounting firms and many students receive full-time job offers during their final co-op terms (particularly if they worked for the same firm every co-op).

                Because of this, a lot of students apply for this particular program, so it can be extremely competitive.

                1. Felicia*

                  A lot of programs at Waterloo have coop programs like that, which is why it’s considered so great! And my friends who went to Waterloo in that type of program had the most luck n gettng jobs. But even then it’s because they got so much awesome real experience before graduating

                2. Canadamber*

                  Ohhh, I think that there’s a similar program at Brock, yeah? Because some guy at my work has a friend whose program he described as exactly like that.

        2. Onymouse*

          In case it was closer to you, you should add Brock to your list of accounting schools. Not other business programs, mind you, but their account program has a good reputation.

          1. Canadamber*

            It’s in St. Catharines and I’m located in Simcoe County, so it’s quite far, and I’m not really looking at moving away but I’ve heard that their accounting program is really quite good…

            1. Onymouse*

              I think you should look at what your eventual goals are. If you want to work in accounting in a local business, or maybe have a small-town firm, that’s great! But if your goal is to go to the “big city”, work at a Big 4, etc (not that I’m advocating for this, but many people do have such aspirations), then perhaps it’s necessary to move out a few years earlier in order to have better connections/opportunities.

              1. Onymouse*

                I should add that I’m saying this in case your hope was to move away after university anyways. I’m sure you can receive a perfectly good accounting education at home.

    4. Blue Anne*

      1. Yes, it is a bit more formal. You’re going to be looking at business casual at a minimum most of the time and probably full suits for client visits.

      2. This is SO not a problem. There have actually been a couple of articles recently about how accounting is so much more egalitarian in this regard. The people who make it to the top are people who are smart and work hard once they’re in the field, not just elites who went to Ivy League schools. A lot of accounting firms have trainee programs which will give you a good start in the field. You just need to be prepared to work really hard.

      Check out these links:
      http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2013/05/14/tips-for-new-grads-deloitte/
      http://economia.icaew.com/news/may-2014/the-dna-of-a-big-four-partner

      3. It really depends on what you specialize in. Management accountants work in-house at companies and keep track of all the company’s financial goings-on to help the executives. You could help individuals to file their taxes. Or, you could be working at an accounting firm giving tax advice to corporations, auditing client numbers to verify that they’re following the law… you could even work in forensic accounting, working out the dirt on white-collar criminals. If you take a look at the different accounting bodies (ACCA, CIMA, etc.) many of them have different specializations, and almost all of them have people who are happy to talk to young people looking at accounting as a career.

      4. I’m not going to be super helpful on this, but… if you’re looking at combining the two fields, take a look at actuarial science. :)

      Hope that was helpful! Accountants are a cool bunch of people, honestly. :D

      1. Canadamber*

        1. I’m a little leery of the whole suits thing, but, hey, I’m sure it’s better than the school uniform that I wear now. :P

        2. I’ll check out those links, thanks! And that’s actually pretty comforting to know, so yeah. :)

        3. There’s really just so much, eh? I guess I’ll figure out more about it as I progress through my program. :P

        4. Cool, I’ll take a look at that, thanks! :D

        :)

    5. Malissa*

      De Minimus cover most of it. But I would add that you might want to look into becoming a CIA–certified internal auditor. Another route to go is to add IT classes in to your schedule and look at becoming an analyst.
      While you are still in school see if you can arrange job shadow days. This will give you a better idea of where you want to go and what you need to get there.

      1. C.C.*

        Completely agree with the IT classes. I’ve worked in Big 4 accounting and increasingly audits are “controls based”, requiring plenty of input from IT savvy auditors.

    6. Apollo Warbucks*

      I work in the internal accounts department of a fairly large corporate.

      1) the dress code is fairly standard office wear (a shirt and collar with a smart pair of trousers) but I don’t have to meet clients. I occasionally wear a suit for meetings with suppliers or senior management. The client facing staff seem to be a little smarter but very few of them seem to wear suites or ties.

      2) I did not go to college and only have some basic professional accounting qualification, this hasn’t hurt me at all, I’ve got the same options to study for the higher level qualifications (similar to CPA) the only thing I don’t get is exceptions from some of the earlier exams so it might take me longer to qualify.

      3) There are so many different types of jobs that accountants do basically there are two types of accountants

      Management accounting is concerned with the provisions and use of accounting information to managers within organizations, to provide them with the basis to make informed business decisions that will allow them to be better equipped in their management and control functions.

      Financial accounting is the field of accountancy concerned with the preparation of financial statements for decision makers, such as stockholders, suppliers, banks, employees, government agencies, owners, and other stakeholders and is regulated heavily in terms or content and format.

      There are many aspects of accounting from filing statutory returns, tax, audit, forensic accounting, systems accounting (which is what I do) corporate finance, bankruptcy and there are also general admin roles such as accounts payable / receivable.

      As an accountant you’ll spend a lot of time working with spreadsheets, reconciling accounts reporting writing and preparing and presenting financial information to management, not all of which are financially literate.

      This week I’ve been working on:

      Restructuring the reporting format for one of the departments so the accounts can be provided in a better manner.

      Trying to find some money that’s is missing from the accounts payable ledger. (Someone lost $700)

      Improving reporting for the accounts receivable clerks

      Clearing up the database to remove old clients and jobs that haven’t been used in years.

      Preparing for the year end later this month, creating users guides for rolling the ledger and generally clearing the past last years worth of junk from the database.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      FWIW- a friend is an accountant. His specialty is municipalities.
      I don’t know about Canada, but here in rural areas in the states everything is kind of informal- casual pants/shirt. I am sure there are times where he has to don a business shirt and tie, but not often.
      He works for several towns and villages. This means driving to different locations depending on the agreed schedule.
      The part that I was not really aware of is that government accounting is different from what businesses use. That may or may not appeal to you.

  51. Jamie*

    I totally forgot until I was on my way in that I have someone coming to show them our ERP in a live environment and give a company tour.

    I’d have dressed a little better had I remembered and not experiments with a new hair product. I tried a thickener and now my hair is being very weird – not horrible but I don’t feel like me and now I want to meet strangers in my sneakers, casual sweaters, and oddly poofy hair.

  52. Audiophile*

    I’m considering, again, applying for jobs out of state. Possibly Boston or the DC metro area. I’m becoming increasingly frustrated with not being able to find a better job, I feel like I’ve been consistently job hunting since 2008.
    I had one interview last month and some interest from another company but that turned out to be a part time role. I’ve heard nothing about that role since then.
    Has anyone looked or worked in those areas?While the volunteer experience has certainly lifted my confidence and convinced me to apply to positions that I might have overlooked otherwise, I know I’m still behind in experience most places are looking for. None of the unsolicited emails to small agencies went anywhere.

      1. Audiophile*

        Communications/social media, my degree is in communications. I’ve been doing some remote volunteer work in social media for the last few months.

        1. CalicoK*

          I’m not in communications/social media, but a friend of mine spent years trying to break into the DC/NYC market. In the meantime, he volunteered on election campaigns and did some projects here and there under the title of “consultant” on his resume. I think that really helped him get his foot in the social media door. Btw, he ended up in NYC.

          1. Audiophile*

            Well, granted my job search wasn’t always focused on communications. But I’ve spent four years now in receptionist positions, so I knew I needed an intern/volunteer gig to help boost my resume.

            But I feel like the longer I stay in this position, the harder it becomes to get out and be seen as a viable candidate. Especially now that Facebook is 10yrs old.

            1. CalicoK*

              If you can swing it, I think volunteering/interning is the way to go. My friend didn’t have a job, so he was better able to intern and volunteer on more intensive projects. He never got hired by anyone he volunteered for, but I think the best thing he got from those experiences (besides a resume booster) were loads of contacts in the communications/social media industry.

              1. Audiophile*

                I can’t swing interning fulltime, unless it was paid. This volunteer work is going well because it’s all remote. We have monthly calls, but other than that, there’s little interaction that isn’t all through email. It’s been a great learning experience and really spurred my creativity.

            2. EmmBee*

              To be honest, I’d be hesitant to hire someone on my team (social media/comms) who has a receptionist title — UNLESS they also could prove that they did at least some social media work for their current company, OR if they did social on the side (ie, had a very visible/popular personal social media presence on multiple platforms.).

              Is there any way you can volunteer to help with social media at your current job? Even just sit in on some meetings there? I’d also strongly recommend you focus on your personal SoMe activities. Do you use the platforms yourself regularly? Are you professional on them, are you sharing valuable content? Are you blogging? Etc.

              There are SO many recent grads with lots of great social media experience, so it can be tough to break into if you don’t have the background. The only exception, I’d say, is if you work at a tiny company that doesn’t have a dedicate SoMe person, and you start filling in that way.

              1. Audiophile*

                I appreciate your honesty. The reception positions weren’t something I actively sought out, but unfortunately when I graduated the market was horrible and there were no comm jobs I could find. So I’ve sort of been in a ‘take what I get mode’ for the last few years.
                I’m positive there’s no way I could volunteer to do social media work for this company, they’re a large financial company and I’m a contractor through a separate company. The company I work for wouldn’t have it. The one bright side, is that despite being a contractor I’m able to apply for internal positions as an internal candidate, because I have a corporate email. But I haven’t gotten a whole lot of traction there. I’ve had more luck applying and getting interviewed outside of this company. And since I’m front desk I can’t really sit in on meetings either.
                I will say that since I’ve started this volunteer position, the growth of their social media accounts has been significant ( the platform I manage has had the largest growth of all).
                Would you still be hesitant even with volunteer experience or intern experience?

    2. JM*

      I work in Boston in HR and have a friend in communications/social media who seemed to have a rough go at finding a position for a few months after her old position was eliminated but since then she’s been doing pretty well. It’s a tough market here, especially this time of year just due to the sheer number of recent grads from the colleges who are trying to stay in the area. I’m not sure where you’re trying to come from either, but the cost of living here is also absolutely ridiculous so that’s something to consider – you may need to make more money to get to a break even point as well.

      1. Audiophile*

        That’s true. I’m in NY, but the suburbs. And cost of living here is a major PITA. So much so that I still live at home. With my family planning to move to another state within the next year or two, the pressure is on to find a decent paying job. I’d really like to avoid moving to an admin role, unless it involved some social media or communications work.
        I did have a positive experience recently, where I was told the social media work is putting me on the right track and that the writing samples I submitted (published blog posts) showed strong writing skills. So that makes me think I just need to keep applying. NYC is so competitive that I think it will be impossible to break into.

        1. JM*

          Yeah, I graduated from college thinking I could make $X and get by…turns out I needed twice as much as I thought just to be able to afford half an apartment within reasonable distance to public transportation so wherever you end up trying to relocate, definitely make sure you’re browsing apartment listings and such before making the transition so you know whether you’re getting a liveable wage. I feel like pretty often the social media/communications tasks get wrapped up into other positions (sometimes even into the receptionist title) so you have to know how to wear a lot of different hats to be in that field – good luck!

          1. Audiophile*

            Thanks. I’ve seen it more and more wrapped into admin jobs, especially with small departments at unis that don’t want to or can’t use the uni marketing/comm office.
            And COL is definitely on my mind, I’ve been quietly squirreling away money as much as possible. It’s just difficult being patient.

    3. Stephanie*

      DC Metro isn’t as expensive as the NYC Metro, but COL is a pretty high there as well, so just keep that in mind if you’re looking for jobs there.

      A lot of offices are in DC or the immediately outside the city in VA or MD surbubs. But there are a few employment centers deeper into Maryland or Virginia (the I-270 corridor and Tysons Corner come to mind, respectively) that’ll be harder to commute from the city center and are more suburban.

      Traffic’s also horrendous (and public transit’s good, but not as extensive as NYC area), so a job might involve a long commute.

      I did like living there. The COL was a giant PITA, but I found it easy to meet people there, as a lot of people relocated there for work or school.

      1. Audiophile*

        Right now it’s just a thought. I’m still applying and getting interviews, though I have none set up for May so far.
        But it feels like I’ve been perpetually job hunting since 2008, it’s just frustrating.
        I liked the DC area when I visited last year with my friend.
        How long did you live there, Stephanie? And what area did you live in?

        1. Stephanie*

          I lived there 3.5 years and lived all over the area. Both jobs were in Old Town Alexandria, which is a very nice, touristy area of a suburb just outside DC.

          I actually reverse commuted from DC most of my time there. The affordable parts of Alexandria were about an equivalent commute, so I chose to live in DC.

          I did live in Alexandria for a bit (the other side). I also lived in Prince George’s County, MD, which is just east of DC. PG is interesting as the county is overwhelmingly black (like 90+% in a lot of municipalities) and runs the gamut from really poor areas to fairly affluent areas.

          In DC, I lived in Shaw, which is just north of downtown and near Howard. When I first moved there in 2008, it was rapidly gentrifying. It’s pretty yuppified now (I think a row house finally sold for a $1,000,000 there a year ago). I also lived in Anacostia, which historically was one of the roughest parts of town (still kind of is in some parts). It is starting to gentrify now, but still isn’t the greatest neighborhood. But it was very cheap-I moved there to save money (my landlord in Shaw wanted to raise my rent $300). A few of my friends were worried I was going to get stabbed on my one-block walk to the Metro.

          I did have a car while I was there, but you could get by without one, depending where you live and work.

          1. Audiophile*

            Wow, you really did live all over the place.

            When I visited, my friend and I stayed in the Arlington area. It was a block away from a metro station, so I’m sure it’s a relatively expensive area. But it was very convenient for traveling as a tourist.
            I have a car that I could keep or ditch if need be, without much trouble.

            1. Stephanie*

              Haha, yeah. I did an interview a couple of weeks ago with a market research firm about grocery stores in the area (and what I look for in one). I mentioned my residence history and she was like “Wow! You’re perfect for this since it sounds like you’ve lived in so many different parts of the area.”

              Yeah, Arlington’s expensive if you want walk-to-Metro access, but it got cheaper if you didn’t mind being further from the Metro (at least when I was still there).

  53. Keri*

    I was wondering what RSS reader (or whatever) everyone uses that they are able to keep up with the comments so well. I’ve been an everyday/multiple times per day reader for 4ish years now, but I rarely comment. I try not to read the posts too early, because I like to wait until people have had a chance to comment, since I enjoy the comments here so much. But by then, it seems silly to leave my own since the conversation is pretty much over. I would like to contribute more, so I guess I was wondering how the people I see all different places in the comment threads do it without losing track!

    1. GigglyPuff*

      …not the best thing to admit, multitask at work while hitting the refresh button

      (although if I do end up getting sucked into reading everything, I stay later at work, which I’ll probably have to do today, since it’s Open Thread)

    2. Vera*

      What has been suggested before is that you can subscribe to all comments on any post by RSS (link is where you make a comment). I tried this with a few posts using my RSS reader of choice, Feedly, but still have a really hard time with it. All the comments come in as a single “post” and I have no idea what it’s in reply to. I’d love to contribute more, as well, but I can’t seem to find a way to keep up! I end up doing a lot of coming back, checking, ctrl+F for my username, etc.

  54. Christine*

    Does anyone have any advice/tips/success stories for onboarding and training new people in office-type work? We have NO process around this at all, and management doesn’t seem to be interested in allocating time/resources to developing anything. I have a new guy to train, I’m juggling a crazy heavy workload at the same time (60 hour weeks with lots on the backburner), and hands-on training is not something that I’m good at. He’s asking great questions and seems really eager to learn and help, so I think we’ll get through it just fine, but I really want to do this better in the future.

    1. Christine*

      The current process seems to be hands-on training that we expect people to take notes on/remember, for a couple of weeks tops, and then throw them to the wolves and expect them to ask questions when they’re not sure, and make lots of mistakes until they learn. We’re only handling millions of dollars in transactions, what could possibly go wrong, right? I really want to develop clearer lines of duties with documented daily/weekly/monthly tasks and written standard work that covers our biggest processes.

      1. fposte*

        Can you enlist New Guy in this enterprise? He’s kind of the expert on the training process for your org right now, since he’s the one undergoing it. “I’d really like to codify our training in future–while you’re getting up to speed, can you keep some notes about what worked and what didn’t, what it would be useful to have cheat sheets on, etc.?” Check back with him on that as well as on his progress formally at regular interviews.

        I’m fortunate in that some of my staff positions turn over on a regular schedule (grad student staff), so the veterans train the newbies, but the manual that’s been developed over the years is a thing of amazing beauty and information because the staff creating it are still in the position of being keenly aware of what you need to know there.

    2. Bryan*

      My old office was this way. We called it, “They throw you to the sharks then get mad when you get blood on the carpet.”

      My new job was amazing. They sent me an email ahead of time with my schedule for the first two days. My manager is wonderful and made sure that I didn’t have any time where I would be idle in my chair. That was a little exhausting but I hate when company’s sit you down on your first day and then leave you, like you know what to do. They also gave me a huge binder that served as a training outline and is there in case I need to go back to it. At 30 and 90 days my manager checked in to see how I was doing and let me know how I was performing.

      1. Anonymint*

        This is exactly how my new job has been – I had a 1-week check in and a 30-day check in. Now I’ve been here a little over 6 weeks and after lots of scheduled training and assistance with procedures/ processes, I’m starting to do the work on my own with fewer questions and much more confidence than I’ve had at the beginning of any other job.

        I’m also scheduled for 60- and 90- day check ins to get and give feedback. This is after coming from a place where I didn’t have any review or feedback (despite requests for it) in the 18 months I was there. It’s been so refreshing!

      2. C Average*

        This is amazing. My office is very much a blood-on-the-carpet environment.

        I think for us part of the problem is that everything is so freaking dynamic (I don’t mean in the corporate buzzword kind of way, but in the volatile-like-dynamite kind of way). If we tried to document our processes in a binder, it would have to be updated every week. As it is, those of us who have been around for a long time go around asking each other, “Do we use 70% cacao for the teapots, or 75%?” “Is Bob still the person we go to with questions about the shared drive?” “Did the drop-down menus in the [really important tool we use every day] change?”

        None of us here EVER achieve mastery. In some ways, every day feels like starting over. It’s bonkers.

        1. Carrie in Scotland*

          I like the shark/blood imagery. I just call it “see this deep end? well, you’ve been chucked in it. sink or swim!”

  55. Reality Bites*

    Ugh not sure how I’m this behind with the open thread since I’ve been up for hours, but alas…I am curious to know if anyone has experienced this or knows if it is possible.

    If you’ve left your former employer, and elected to continue your benefits via COBRA, but then were able to find new employment relatively soon is it possible to continue with COBRA (purely in the instance that the health benefits are much better than the new employer’s group health plan) and negotiate with the new employer that they cover the cost so long as you are employed by them?

    I’m just wondering if it’s allowed, and whether it is something worth trying to negotiate when you receive a new job offer. Certain health benefits through different insurance companies can be significantly better than what is provided by a new employer’s group health plan.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I know a few companies will give you a lump sum if you decide to not sign up for their insurance. That keeps benefits balanced between employees.
      But I wouldn’t ask them to cover the cost of a different insurance plan. They negotiated their plan benefits and that is what they offer.
      I’d wait to see if what the company offers as far as insurance before you worry too much about it. You could also pick up a supplemental insurance if their primary really, really sinks.

    2. KMC*

      Not sure if this has changed in the past 5 years or so, but back when I handled COBRA, I thought it was only for 18 months?

    4. Unmitigated Gal*

      Unless you are disabled, COBRA continuation is available for up to 18 months (24 if you are disabled).

    5. CTO*

      Another option would be to purchase an individual policy on the healthcare exchange. Even without tax credits (which are usually not available to people who are offered employer-sponsored coverage) you might find something that’s a better fit for your needs/budget than what your new employer offers.

      You’d probably have to wait until the next open enrollment period (voluntarily dropping COBRA does not count as a “qualifying life event,” though COBRA running out does) to enroll in a marketplace policy.

    6. JM*

      Usually the cost of COBRA is fairly high, and I highly doubt you’d be able to get your new company to cover the cost when it would be more expensive than what they’d pay if you were to get on their coverage. If its the reverse (the COBRA payment is cheaper than what they pay per month for their portion of employer coverage) then maybe you’d have a shot but I’ve only heard of COBRA being covered for high-level employees for the waiting period (ie, if you can’t get insurance coverage through your new company for 60 days, they might pay the COBRA for those 60 days).

    7. Reality Bites*

      Hi everyone! Thanks for the replies.

      Using my iPhone to reply at the moment as I’m on my way to a final interview.

      The thing is my benefits that I could continue under COBRA do have the 18 month limit but because I was co employed by a company based in a specific state I also can extend beyond those 18 months for another 36 months.

      The insurance provider is SUPERB and I really don’t want to lose them. As I’m relatively young the total for my medical, dental and vision is quite low from an employer’s cost standpoint but a bit of a swing for me unless my compensation increases.

      I do plan to ask for full details on the health benefits with my offer so I can see the costs and what is actually covered ( copays, deductibles) and do have time to elect the COBRA benefits if I choose. But wondered if it was even heard of to have that be something negotiated when the health benefits are just so darn good from the insurance provider.

      1. JM*

        On the rare occasion my company has picked up the COBRA tab for someone, it’s been upon their departure as a sign of good will rather than something the employee asked to have covered, and I don’t know that we’ve ever had anyone ask upon hire, but that might have something to do with the fact that we have great coverage with affordable premiums.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        You might want to find out if there anything extra is needed if you decide to get the company insurance after you have been there three years. One company I worked at had employees jump through hoops if they waited to sign up. Employees that signed up at the start of their employment had a much easier time.

    8. Windchime*

      Hopefully you’ll come back to read this answer almost a day later. This is exactly what I did. My new company doesn’t allow employees to be on the insurance until 90 days of employment has passed, so I negotiated COBRA reimbursement as part of my deal. I paid, and then submitted a letter from OldJob’s HR verifying that I had purchased three month’s of COBRA + my cancelled checks, and NewJob reimbursed me for that.

  56. Martiebu*

    I work in healthcare and I’m moving to a new city/state across the country with my husband who will be starting a graduate program this fall. In the new city, there is one big healthcare corporation that runs the majority of the hospitals in the area. I have applied to a few jobs for this company (like 4), but I’m starting to feel uncomfortable applying for new jobs because I have applied to so many. I normally wouldn’t necessarily send so many applications into the same company, but I have only applied to jobs that I am honestly interested in and am qualified for. I have also customized my cover letter and resume for each posting. Most of the positions are at different facilities, so I would assume they have different hiring managers, but do big companies like this have a central HR group that processes applications and is responsible for recruiting? I just wonder if the same person or group of people are seeing me apply repeatedly and if that comes across badly? I haven’t had a lot of success getting interviews at this point and I want to make sure I’m not making my out-of-state job search any more complicated by appearing to be flooding this company with applications. Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      We had a poster here for a while (I’m not sure where she’s got to–Job Seeker, hope all is well with you!) with the same question, and I can’t clearly remember what the feedback was. I think she may have eventually been able to touch base with somebody in HR who told her it wouldn’t hurt.

      I don’t know if I can find her posts again, but I’ll see what I can dig up.

    2. ANB*

      In large companies there’s no general rule on whether recruiting is done locally or centrally – I’ve seen both. If you’re applying via an applicant tracking system, the can likely see where you’ve applied already. I would say keep applying, as there is a chance the hiring managers are different, but keep it to the jobs you’re truly interested in and qualified for.
      The only time multiple applications is a complete turnoff for me is when someone doesn’t seem to have a defined direction and has essentially thrown everything at the wall to see what sticks (ie: applying for Admin Assistant, Analyst and Manager all in one week).

  57. Becca*

    Another success story here! My new job is going so well and fantastically. My boss, and her boss, are super awesome and great.

    Thank you SO much Alison and the whole Open Thread crew. Getting out of a toxic environment was difficult, but there IS hope. And not every job is like your current situation.

    4. chewbecca*

      Congrats!

      Can I just say that I’ve never run in to so many (Re)Beccas in one place before? We’re a trifecta!

  58. Katie the Fed*

    OK, this one is for a friend. She got through the first cut of an application process and is now being asked to provide a 2-page description of herself. What kinds of stuff should she put in there?

        1. fposte*

          Oh, that’s too far out of my wheelhouse–I was hoping to guess the personal/professional balance based on the field.

          Would it make sense to think of it similar to a personal statement for grad school admission? What drives you, what led you here?

          1. Katie the Fed*

            Yeah this one’s confusing for me too. I think it’s probably more to get to know you as a person, so maybe the grad school approach would work.

        2. Anonylicious*

          I would go into her professional areas of interest and expertise, anything about her background that’s not evident from the resume, maybe what motivated her to get in that line of work, and anything personal that she wouldn’t mind getting regurgitated at a hail and farewell or a “Please welcome so-and-so to our team!” type email.

          Two pages seems kind of long for this sort of thing, though.

  59. Katie the Fed*

    Oh! Oh!

    I had to share this one with you guys. We got a resume this week that included very stylized block quotes that managers and other seniors hvae said about the applicant. As in, a large text-wrapped blue box with white font saying “Wakeen is one of the finest individuals I’ve ever had the pleasure to work with. His process innovations increased our chocolate teapot production by 20%. – Deputy Director of Chocolate Teapots, Ltd.”

    It’s so weird.

    1. HRNewbie*

      Arghhh I hate the attempts at flashy CV’s

      A second thought is – he hasn’t just cut, paste and formatted his LinkedIn profile with recommendations has he?

      1. Katie the Fed*

        No, it was very stylish though. Way too stylish. We’re not graphic design people.

        Also some of them were ridiculous quotes. Like the kind of thing a boss says at your farewell or in a note on a card when you leave.

        1. Aunt Vixen*

          I have some really nice pull quotes from when my colleagues and managers nominated me for an org-wide award and had to give some narrative explaining why I was awesome. I’ve been racking my brain for two years trying to figure out how to include them in my application materials. I finally had to settle on noting in my resume (same kind of bullet as all the rest of the bullets!) that I did in fact win the award, and with a record-high number of nominations; and throwing one quoted comment in my cover letter. The rest I just look at occasionally for a bit of an ego boost. :-)

    2. Betsy*

      lol! That’s awesome and totally wrong. I wonder if the linkedIn recommendation section has made people think that’s more okay. It sounds like a cut and paste from LinkedIn kind of thing.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      That’s really weird
      …
      I don’t even know what to say beyond that except, I’ve never understood how people think things like that are a good idea

    4. Sascha*

      I’ve gotten a few of those as well. I got one resume that read like a PR release. The actual work experience didn’t start until page 2.

    5. Joey*

      I’ve seen that a few times. To me its the equivalent of a linkedin endorsement. Give me some context and I’ll decide how relevant it is.

    6. Turanga Leela*

      I wonder if people knew they would be quoted on the resume when they said those things.

    7. C Average*

      Resume-writing is an obnoxious enough task that I would love to crowdsource it out. Not gonna, but sure would like to.

    8. Sabrina*

      Are you saying them in your head using a dramatic movie trailer voice? Because I would. LOL

  60. Monkey Muffin*

    I’ve just begun seeing a therapist weekly to work on my anxiety, and have insurance that doesn’t cover it (oh, Kaiser!). Therapist wants to see me weekly to keep momentum, but it’s going to be tight, money-wise.

    How do folks make this happen? Just do it? I do consider this an investment in myself, and have had great therapy that’s paid off in dividends before, but I’m balking at bit at the price tag this time around. According to my budget I can technically afford it, but it will hurt!

    1. fposte*

      Does your therapist know it’s not covered by your insurance? Sometimes they have a different uninsured rate.

      Otherwise, I say just do it. And keep good records in case it ends up being enough that you can take it as a tax deduction.

      1. Monkey Muffin*

        Thanks, this is validating! To clarify, my therapist does know that it’s not covered, so she’s offering it on a sliding scale ($400/month, for at least 6 mo. likely, eek!).

        Good point about keeping good records! It will probably be several thousand this year.

        1. fposte*

          It takes a lot to make it a deduction (and one that will beat the standard one), but it would be a shame to waste the chance if it were there.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Are you absolutely sure your insurance won’t cover it? Mine would cover it for a bit at a time, like 4 sessions and then my therapist would write a justification to the insurer and they’d bitch and moan and grant me 4 more, and then rinse and repeat. They wanted me to consider medication so he always wrote something along the lines of me being willing to consider medication, which wasn’t really true but it kept them covering it.

      That’s terrible your insurer won’t cover it. Can you switch insurers at the next open season?

      If they won’t, I’d talk to the therapist about it and see what he recommends.

      1. Ursula*

        The ACA has basically said that you can’t treat mental health services differently than medical services.
        http://www.mentalhealth.gov/get-help/health-insurance/

        You should read the contract of your plan carefully to see what kind of limits are in the language. Remember, you can always appeal any coverage decision. It’s the law.

        Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I work in the behavioral health department of an organization that is much like Kaiser.

        1. Anonsie*

          We have to put in lengthy pleads for coverage based on necessity for physical health conditions all the time. Doing it for mental health doesn’t seem like it crosses the line necessarily.

      2. Monkey Muffin*

        I know, right?! I’m nearly 100% sure. My insurer, Kaiser, is also the medical provider, so you can only see their therapists, and only for a limited time. After that, they send you to group therapy (ugh). I haven’t found a therapist that’s a good fit yet, and I really need this, so I got other recommendations.

        I *could* switch insurers this fall, good point! If expect to see this therapist for awhile after that I’ll definitely consider it. Otherwise, I’d be tempted to stay with this insurance plan because it’s the only plan my employer covers 100%.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      For one make sure it’s a good therapist you want to stick with
      …
      on another note, Kaiser is the devil and I did a happy dance when I was able to dump it and get my job’s insurance

      1. Monkey Muffin*

        Yes, thanks! She comes highly recommended from a friend’s therapist, and I’ve had two great experiences with her so far. I also met with another (also good) therapist, but think I prefer this one. I’ll give it a few more sessions until I “break up” with the first therapist ;)

        Yeah, Kaiser is a super efficient machine… that kinda makes you feel inhuman at times.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      Is there a different therapist that would be covered by insurance?
      When I was seeing a therapist for similar issues, I would go twice a month and have lots of “homework” to do in between sessions. I had a copay of $60 so I couldn’t go once a week. But doing work on my own filled in the gaps.

      (I did cognitive reconditioning and highly recommend that therapy route!)

      Good luck to you!

    5. Gogirl*

      I go to a university to get therapy from grad students in clinical training. It’s completely free and I’m sure it is just as effective as any licensed therapist bc they work under the supervision of licensed professionals. I’d say look into that if you don’t feel like fighting with the insurance co.

      1. De Minimis*

        Our Kaiser location had its own Behavioral Health department. I never utilized their services but I assume it worked the same as any other provider in their system.

        Sadly, I miss Kaiser now. I hate the headaches of what I have now, where I have to check if someone is in-network, have to go to a special lab facility [and usually I have to specify that I need to do this since the doctor usually has another place they like to use] and handle a lot of things on my own that I didn’t used to have to worry about with Kaiser since everything was in-house.

        1. Monkey Muffin*

          Yup, I’ve tried Kaiser’s mental health dept, and it’s definitely available, but I couldn’t find someone I clicked with. It seems like my style of therapists aren’t really drawn to Kaiser since it tends to be shorter-term and drives you towards group therapy & meds.

          It’s fun to hate on Kaiser’s rigidity, but I have to admit I’ve had great experiences with them for other issues – allergies, asthma, and that one time I had a seizure – which was really scary, but they were ON it. They seem to be good with emergencies, referrals, and (physical) health prevention and maintenance.

    6. Compromise*

      How about going every other week, but make it a POINT to have specific homework (throughout the week and during the hour you would be at the session) and be accountable for doing the homework.

      1. Monkey Muffin*

        This therapist is all about homework (me too), but her style is once per week to build momentum and feel like you’re really seeing progress, at least at first. I’m functional right now, but have soo much I want to work on that I feel like 2/month just wouldn’t be enough.

    7. Dang*

      Have your therapist try to process your insurance anyway. I thought mine didn’t cover anything until my deductible was reached, but what happens is they send her back what they charge for the service and then she bills me for it. It actually ends up being 1/4 less than if I just pay her directly so it’s worth a shot.

    8. Vera*

      Compromise on once every 2 weeks? If you’re going to go at a regular time, still set aside that hour for reflection. Maybe meditate, write in a journal, etc.

      I recently had some pretty bad problems with anxiety, but was able to overcome it with some good habit-forming. I know how powerful it can be to talk to someone, but I also know I get *stressed out* about finances, so $400/month does not help.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Just wanted to say – do it, invest in you. The money spent will come back to you later on. We aren’t talking about a flashy wardrobe or a new car. This is something that will raise your quality of life for the rest of your life. And it sends a covert message to yourself: “Yes, I will take care of ME.” That is huge.

      If nothing else works, ask if you can barter with her. Maybe you are good at something she has no time for or is a total klutz at. Or maybe she will give you a small break here and there if you send her referrals. Ask. I heard of a doctor that took partial payments in fresh baked bread.

  61. Sniffles*

    As luck would have it, I came down with the flu in the second week of my new job. Two days of being totally out of commission, followed by two days of working from home. I 95% sure I’ll be back in action on Monday (and I’ll be so mad if that’s not the case) but I feel like this may have put a damper on things. My boss and my team seemed really impressed with my work that first week, but they still didn’t have a lot of data points on me, and I got the sense my boss wanted me to be back after a day or so. But it’s the flu, that can knock someone out for a week, can’t it? Plus, I may still be contagious.

    Was it okay for me to take time off this early? Other than keep my boss updated on my condition, was there anything I should’ve done differently? Is there anything I can or should say on Monday to reassure my boss I’m dedicated to the job and I’ll work hard to make up for lost time?

    1. fposte*

      What did the boss say to make you think that you should have come back earlier? Is it possible you’re just projecting your anxiety on her response?

      Unless she’s a really bad boss, this isn’t going to ding you, and you don’t need to grovel/kill yourself to catch up. Just come back, ruefully acknowledge the bad timing of viruses, and do your job well.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Some people are superhuman and rarely get sick. I get anything that passes within a 50 mile radius. I had a boss who didn’t understand me being out for 3 days for the flu…because I don’t think he’d ever had true flu.

      There’s nothing you can really do about it at this point. I’d come in monday if you can drag yourself in (plus they’ll get to see you still a bit under the weather). If you can go in on Sunday to get ahead of things on Monday that would be good too.

      It’s just bad timing. Apologize about it, and keep doing good work.

      1. Sniffles*

        My immune system sucks, at my last job someone observed I get sick a lot. I really should be getting more sleep.

    3. Anonsie*

      You could just apologize for the timing and acknowledge that you know it wasn’t ideal, and that you appreciate them working with you on it in whatever way that they did. Let them know you’re on track for x or y things.

      I want to say you shouldn’t need to be sorry since no one plans to get sick, but there are so very many people out there that seem to think most people’s “sick” is a bit of the sniffles, so calling out is a luxury option that shouldn’t be taken. Heck, I’ve seen people here scornfully mention someone taking a sick day in their first few weeks like it must *obviously* be a lie and they were playing hookie. So approach with caution but don’t feel guilty. I would be furious if you came in where I work and spread the flu around. As an aside, I doubt you’re still extremely contagious but mind your hands.

      1. Sniffles*

        I was sick at work early in the week. I thought it was just a cold I could tough out with the right medicine and amount of juice. But I got progressively worse, and by the time I got home I was miserable and found out I had a fever. Even on that day I was at work I felt bad constantly sniffling, blowing my nose and sneezing. no one wants to hear their co-workers dealing with goop.

  62. Rant about lack of response post-interview*

    Happy Friday to you all!

    Just wanted to rant a bit about a recent experience I had. I was flown out for an all-day interview with 6 people. Unfortunately I didn’t get the position, but I was proud that I made it that far and wanted feedback, since it’s a new field for me and the interview seemed to go well.

    After I heard the bad news (which was like pulling teeth and way PAST the date they told me they’d get back to me–but that’s another rant!) I emailed the hiring manager and 2 others who had given me their business cards. I read this blog, so I made sure I came across as sincere and non-entitled. Not a single one wrote back, even with a generic response. One of the guys was a would-be team member, not upper management, so I thought he would at least write back. I feel disappointed that the hiring manager, who was extremely pleasant over the phone and in-person, and who was praised by multiple people, wouldn’t write anything back, even after being 1 of 3 in-person candidates.

    It just feels……. “weird,” that after all this wonderful communication and knowing the hiring manager is a wonderful person, that it feels like she’s wonderful to her TEAM and interviewing candidates, but it doesn’t extend to a rejected candidate!

    1. Dang*

      I’m sorry. I know it’s so frustrating, and it won’t make you feel any better, but I can really only remember 3 rejections I’ve had post-interview during my job search thus far… out of AT LEAST 25. All of the others just dropped off the radar. Seems to be the way of operating these days, and it still stuns me every time! I think it’s even more true that they owe candidates who have traveled to the interview an answer either way… but I’ve had the same experience with distance interviews as you’re describing, unfortunately.

      Hang in there, the right one will come along soon!

      1. fposte*

        Though let’s be fair–she did get a rejection. She didn’t get post-interview feedback. I think it’s rude not to give a rejection, but post-interview feedback is another matter. (That being said, I would actually respond to the request, if only to say “We can’t do that.”)

        1. Dang*

          ohhh, oops, I missed the ‘after i received the bad news’ bit. I thought she was emailing them to ask whether they’ve made a decision yet.

    2. anon all the way*

      Unfortunately this is all too becoming a trend. You put forth all the effort for an interview and the company you interviewed for doesn’t want to extend the same courtesies. It’s the new age for interviewees and the completely passive-aggressive response by companies shows.

    3. Colette*

      Well, keep in mind that some of them (especially the would-be team member) may not have comfortable providing feedback. Others may be completely swamped so it dropped even though they would have loved to provide feedback, or they’ve had bad experiences with people arguing with feedback in the past, or the organization has a policy against giving feedback, or …. They’re never obligated to give feedback, any more than you’d be obligated to give them feedback if you were offered the job and turned it down.

    4. Rant about lack of response post-interview*

      Thanks all– I forgot to mention, I also spent weeks preparing an hour-long presentation of one of their products!

      I agree that they’re not obligated to provide feedback, but the “weird” feeling is that they didn’t acknowledge me at all, even just to say “good luck in the future.” Also, don’t they consider that I will eventually end up in this field, and that our paths may cross in the future?! Awkward!

      1. CTO*

        The path-crossing will only be awkward if you let it be! By the time that happens, I’m sure most of the sting will have faded and you’ll be cool as a cucumber when you run into them.

    6. C Average*

      This is anecdata only, but it’s related so I’ll share it.

      I once applied for an internal role I thought I’d be a great fit for. I had an interview that I felt went really well, and I knew I was one of three finalists, but I wound up not getting the job.

      I reached out to the interviewers for feedback and didn’t hear back. I waited and waited and waited and then just gave up and forgot about it.

      Nearly a month later I got a response with a lot of really helpful feedback. It turns out that their department has a policy of only giving feedback from the interview panel as a whole. (Even if only one person has feedback they’d like to provide, the whole panel has to view it and sign off.) Due to travel schedules, the onboarding of the new person who did get the job, and other factors, the whole panel hadn’t been able to meet and gather feedback.

      I have no idea if this is common at all, but I can see how panelists would be reluctant to provide feedback autonomously, policy or no policy. I’ve been on interview panels where I’ve been asked for feedback by candidates, and I’ve definitely never been comfortable offering any until I’ve had a chance to confer with other panelists and make sure we’re aligned, the feedback is appropriate, and my biases aren’t a factor in anything I’m saying.

    2. Stephanie*

      Black VW Golf, stick shift (I insisted on the manual transmission). I really like it, expect I’m regretting the black color a bit. I live in Phoenix, so it’s pretty uncomfortable to drive it the first 5-10 minutes and the car looks horribly dirty after a dust storm (or even just a few days of regular driving).

        1. Sascha*

          I love GTIs. So does my husband…he’s had 2. He really wants to get a Golf R, which is the newer, fancier GTI. Have to pay off that truck first.

        2. Stephanie*

          I almost got the GTI. I decided against it since it required at least mid-grade fuel and my car insurance would have been higher. I also figured it would have required more maintenance down the road because of the turbo.

      1. Cody c*

        Kind of related note
        Does the kind of car the boss drives influence your opinion of that person?

        Btw a 2002 Chevy cavalier

        1. Stephanie*

          My first car was a 2002 Chevy Cavalier. I got a lower back ache if I drove that thing more than five hours, but I loved that car.

    4. GigglyPuff*

      2001 Nissan Maxima, I got it when my grandmother passed away. She’d only had it a couple years and only drove it to the grocery store. So now 13 years old, and I just hit 50,000 miles a couple of months ago. ;)

        1. Del*

          I’ve been eternally disappointed that the year I bought one, the bright/light blues weren’t available. But it’s a great car even in grey :)

      2. LMW*

        I have a Fit too. Do you have a problem keeping your mirrors clear when it rains or snows? Mine become just about useless. I love the car, but it’s driving me crazy.

    6. Rebecca*

      2003 Ford Escape XLT. I will drive it until it literally falls apart and can’t be driven any longer.

      I’m working on a 1989 Pontiac Firebird Formula T Top, bright red, V8. Hope to have it on the road by mid summer :)

      1. Canadamber*

        Oh my gosh that sounds awesomeee! (I love cars, in case you can’t tell, hahaha.) Not too big of a fan of Pontiacs in general, but that sounds sweet. I see a white one around town sometimes.

        1. Rebecca*

          My dream is to have a late 1960’s early 1970’s Pontiac GTO. OMG I would drive it every day!

          1. Stephanie*

            Ooooh, me too.

            My dad bought a 2006 Mustang GT convertible with a V8 a couple of years back as a “fun” car. Standard story–a guy’s dad bought it, passed away, and he just wanted to sell it on the cheap.

            It is fun to drive, but it gets awful mileage (about 19 mpg). The clutch is really, really stiff, so shifting isn’t the easiest.

            I also can’t drive that car anywhere without getting a Baby Boomer male saying “Man, that’s a sweet car.”

    9. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      2014 Honda CR-V. One car family, so we also drive a commuter bike. :)

    10. Tinker*

      2003 Ford Focus SE. In stick.

      Kind of debating whether my next purchase will be one of those smart cars, a Focus or Fiesta hatchback (that being a bit better in the cargo department than the sedan, from what I’ve heard) or go the other route and get a used Ranger or a Tacoma. And then, being both queer and a Coloradan, arguably there’s some sort of law somewhere demanding Subaru station wagon.

      If my house thing works out, I’ll have a 100% transit and/or bike commute and will need the car only for non-work type stuff. So the next car purchase should be a ways out, and hopefully at that point I’ll be in the same position and hence can pretty much indulge whatever whim I care to car wise.

      My commute bike is a Surly Steamroller. His name is Hermes, mostly after the motorcycle rather than the god.

      1. Canadamber*

        LOL well gotta be a Subaru! I’m hoping for someone to chime in with one of these, as I love them. :) I used to have a 2001 Forester, but it got scrapped. :(

      2. College Career Counselor*

        Just make sure you have the “Colorado Native” bumper sticker!
        ;-)

        1. Tinker*

          Heh, I’m not actually a native though — would have to get one of those snarky “Moved Here” sorts of things.

          Describing where one’s from is kind of a funny thing — I usually say I’m “originally from Houston” when that comes up, which is technically true and also more reflective of identity (as my family is Texan and I was born there), but my folks moved from there when I was two and left the state when I was five. So it’s a bit weird.

      3. cuppa*

        My husband actually drives a Legacy.
        He likes it very much, except that he says it’s a pain to work on.

        I drive a Honda CR-V. It’s very boring, but my last car was a non-stop party of breakdowns, so I wanted something safe, dependable, and good in the snow, and it is all of those things.

        1. cuppa*

          I meant to add that I seriously looked at the Forester — but I got too good of a deal on the CR-V to pass up.

    11. Liz in a Library*

      Until very, very recently, a 2008 Toyota Prius, and I miss it desperately.

      Since I’m 100% remote at work, the Mr. and I decided to go down to one car. My Toyota had a little over 150k miles on it, and his car had under 50k, so it seemed the logical choice.

      Except, now I drive his 2009 Chevy Impala and I hate it. It is the most uncomfortable car I have ever driven (I suspect this is largely because I am a lilliputian and it is built for taller drivers–in order to reach the brake pedal, I have to scoot up directly onto the steering wheel), and I have a very small zone of visibility driving (huge giant blind spots, and it’s nearly impossible for me to back up). Plus the gas mileage is insanely bad. I didn’t realize how good my mileage really was with the Prius, but man…

      1. Anonicorn*

        I had 2 Impalas in the past and I loved them both, but I’m more Brobdingnagian. I miss the horsepower but, like you said, I don’t miss the gas mileage.

        1. Liz in a Library*

          I think that has a lot to do with it. The Mr. is 6’4″ and it’s really comfortable for him.

    12. Persephone Mulberry*

      2011 Hyundai Sonata, purchased in February. Newest car I’ve ever owned. I love everything about it, except that I miss my sunroof.

      1. Canadamber*

        I had a 2001. Absolutely LOVED it. It was technically my parents’, and now it’s since been scrapped; but, oh my gosh. Best car ever, just like you said!!! :)

        I’d like to buy a Crosstrek once I graduate university and get on my feet. ;)

      2. C Average*

        2001 Subaru Legacy. Love it. I usually run or walk to work, so the car rarely leaves the driveway, but it’s been an incredibly dependable, fun, altogether wonderful car. I hope it lasts many MORE years.

        1. Canadamber*

          Are your guys’ cars manual or auto? My Fozzy was a stick shift, and my dad’s ’91 Legacy actually is as well.

          And apparently calling that transmission “standard” is falling out of use, because it just… isn’t, any more.

          1. Stephanie*

            Stick all the way. I will be very sad when I can’t find a stick anymore. I know they’re falling out of favor.

            When I bought the Golf, the salesman said he noticed VW drivers liked sticks for some reason.

          2. C Average*

            Automatic. I’m a crappy enough driver without throwing in more variables.

            (By crappy I mean timid and old-ladyish, not dangerous or reckless.)

    14. ThursdaysGeek*

      93 Saturn with 217K miles. It’s a good little car and has a lot of miles in it left. However, the air conditioner doesn’t work and now my driver’s window doesn’t roll up and down. But I always spend less than $35 when I fill the tank, which lasts for a week and a half to two weeks, even with daily commuting.

    15. CollegeAdmin*

      2012 Mazda3 – I like it, but it’s not my baby. That title will always belong to my ’00 Pontiac Grand Am. My mechanic father made me trade that beautiful car in last fall after the brakes and transmission went within about a month of each other. I’m still brokenhearted.

      1. Canadamber*

        When my beloved Forester was scrapped, I cried and cried. It being my first car made this not too surprising.

    19. Anonymint*

      Toyota Matrix – 2005. I love it, but it’s almost got 200,000 miles on it and I’m hoping to get something new in the next few years!

      I keep telling my partner that when we decide to get married, he can skip a diamond and propose with a convertible Fiat instead ;-)

    20. Ursula*

      I drive a 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, manual transmission. I, too, am lilliputian (always wanted to get to 5′), and it fits me perfectly. I want the new one, because it’s a six speed.

      1. De Minimis*

        Alternate between a 2003 and 1996 [!] Toyota Camry.

        The ’96 is a great car, but the main reason we’re still driving it is because it spent a few years not being driven or being lightly driven, so it still has a somewhat relatively low number of miles for its age, and is back to being somewhat lightly driven again.

        But I know we’re going to need a new car sometime within the next couple of years, and I’m dreading it….

        1. chewbecca*

          I drive a ’96, too! It’s made under the Geo name, but all the parts are Toyota. I’ve been really impressed with how well it’s held up over the past 18 years (wow, my car’s old enough to vote), but I’m worrying it’s reaching the end of its life cycle, too.

          1. De Minimis*

            I’m actually more worried about the other car, it has lower miles but has been worked a lot harder over the years, and it is the one I use for my commute so it’s getting a ton of miles on it now. If the ’96 continues to be used in the way it is now [only driven in town on fairly short drives for errands or my wife’s nearby part-time job] it could easily last another few years.

        2. Anonylicious*

          My Jeep is a ’97. It definitely does not have a low number of miles, but, y’know, it’s paid for. And I’ve replaced so many parts on it it’s like halfway to a brand-new Jeep. (That’s what I tell myself, anyway.)

          The gas mileage kills me, but I’m irrationally attached to the darn thing.

    21. Algae*

      Me? A 2008 Town and Country. But once a week or so, I get to drive my husband’s 2014 Chevy Volt.

      It has heated seats. I really love those.

    22. Anonicorn*

      2008 Nissan Versa.

      If I’m driving farther than my husband, I take his 2013 Chevy Spark. We’re kind of fuel conscious but can’t afford a Prius.

    23. chewbecca*

      I drive a 1996 Geo Prizm. It has close 200K miles on it, but it still runs, though I need to get the brakes done soon.

      I broke the driver’s-side door handle a few winters ago and now I’m the only person who knows how to open my door. It’s a handy anti-theft device.

      I believe everybody should have a car with… quirks at least once in their life. My first car was a 1980 Chevy Citation. That car was awesome, but made an awful noise when you started it, didn’t have a radio or AC, made a horrible knocking sound when it was idling and wouldn’t drive over 45 miles an hour. I loved that car…

    24. Malissa*

      My daily driver is a 1999 Ford Windstar. I love this van to pieces. I plan on driving it until it blows up again. I’ll have to replace it with something a little more practical to my current situation, which means ground clearance.

    25. Elizabeth West*

      2007 Chevy Cobalt–which got caught up in that ignition switch recall bullcrap. Thanks so much, GM–I keep losing my key because I had to take it off my (not that heavy) key ring. :P Parts can’t even be gotten until after I can’t take PTO any more this year, so I told the dealership they’ll have to make a note to schedule me on Saturday for the repair.

      I love this car–he is the first “nice” car I’ve ever had. And someone hit me on my birthday last year–gah! But the body shop did an incredible job. You can’t even tell it ever happened.

      1. Nina*

        Same here, only mine is a 2006. :)

        The ignition thing is scary and mine acted up a few times before I got the notice from GM that something was wrong. I had my ignition replaced last week, and they gave me new keys as well.

        What really sucks is that even though it’s fixed, the mechanic advises not to have any additional keys/charms/keycards on the ring, except for the fob, the car key, and maybe a house key. So I’m still separating the keys after the ordeal is over. Ugh.

        I love my Cobalt, and I agree; it’s a very nice car, but I’m thinking of upgrading once I get back to work full time.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Mine hasn’t done anything that I can think of. They’re telling me that they won’t have parts until around June 22. I said well, you’ll have to schedule me on a Saturday then, because after June 20 I cannot take ONE MINUTE of PTO because I’m saving it for my vacation.

    27. Not So NewReader*

      I am surprised by how many are driving older cars. My car is in the last millennium also. A Taurus.

      On the same line, what is the best snow car you ever had? Or maybe you had an average car but happened to get great tires, that counts.

    28. Sabrina*

      2009 Toyota Corolla meh it’s a car, it’s paid off, but it’s my first and last Toyota. I’ve had it in for recalls about 5 times and I’ve never gotten so much as a car wash meanwhile new owners get free maintenance.

    29. Anon scientist*

      2004 Mazda 3 hatchback, blue, 120,000 miles. I love this car. Only problem is rust (yes, I live close to the coast in New England) but I’ve just committed to $2,000 in body panel repairs so she needs to go for a while longer. I replaced the transmission at 80,000 miles, but that’s the only problem I’ve had except for that rust.

  64. Amaryllis*

    This is similar to the question a couple of weeks ago about a coworker getting credit for someone else’s work. If you’re in a meeting when this happens, would it be appropriate to speak up and say “actually, I have been handling this project?”. I don’t see anything wrong with that (although in reality, I probably would have difficulty speaking up).

    My friend thinks that you shouldn’t “speak up” against the boss. At most, you should wait until after the meeting to bring it up.

    It’s not about being combative – you don’t hop onto the conference table and shout out “YOU’RE WRONG! YOU SHOULD BE PRAISING ME!!” or anything. But there shouldn’t be anything wrong with correcting misconceptions or being assertive when it’s appropriate. One of the reasons for speaking up at the moment is that it lets the other people in the meeting know who is handling what – otherwise, how will they know? It’s better than stewing about it after the fact.

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      Is it the boss taking credit for your work, or a peer? That makes a difference.

        1. Amaryllis*

          I mean, a boss thanking a peer (of the person who should get credit), not a peer of the boss.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I was in a meeting the other day when my boss started saying I’d done really well with this big project and saying I should work with another department to do the same thing as they could benefit form the work. It I’d had nothing to do with the work, it was really easy for me to correct my boss all I said was I’m glad you appreciate the work, but it was Amy that did most of it and Phil helped, so I can’t claim any credit.

      The boss can make a mistake with whose done what, but the person taking credit should speak up and redirect it to the right person.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        And if the person getting the credit wrongly doesn’t speak up, you should probably speak up right away. That will be a bit awkward, but the peer can then save face by saying they weren’t sure what to say. If you wait, it only makes it more awkward all around, and much harder to correct.

  65. Ursula*

    An entire department (I’m not sure if it is managers as well) in the company I work for has essentially been fired and have to reapply for their jobs. They are interviewing next week and everyone will know their status by the following Friday. The possibility that they will have to do this has been hanging over their heads for more than six months and there have been little reorganizations during this time.

    I feel like this is stupid. If the point is to get the dead weight out, the directors and/or managers need to cowgirl up and fire people who aren’t performing.

    Has anyone else experienced this?

    1. OriginalYup*

      I was adjacent to something like that once. An entire department had to apply for jobs in the newly organized department that, in the new format, had fewer spaces than current employees. Basically, musical chairs. It was wretched. People were freaking out, it disrupted the day-to-day work, and everyone outside the department had a really negative impression of the leaders who enacted this plan. It destroyed a lot of trust. No one who was there to witness it ever forgot that the company had done this, so you always knew in the back of your mind that, no matter how good your reviews or how awesome your results, one day they must just cook up some crazy stunt like this again and you’d be out.

      As far as I can tell, the whole thing was the result of (a) a president who was too conflict averse to actually let anyone go, (b) a manager who who played favorites, and (c) a dysfunctional culture where they liked to fiddle with the org chart rather than fix the business problems.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      A few years ago they reshuffled the HR department where I work and made everyone apply for their jobs again, the good people who had options left the firm rather than reapply for their own jobs.

      I think that the management know who they want to keep and should have the decency to be honest with people.

      1. Canadamber*

        Ugh, if I had to deal with any of these situations, I think that I would just leave. That’d be awful, and the stress would probably kill me.

      2. EvilQueenRegina*

        They just did something like that with my department before Christmas and I know there were a few comments at the time that management knew who they wanted to keep but just went through the motions of interviewing everyone.

        Anyone who’d had a disciplinary in the previous 12 months was automatically made redundant, and there had been a suggestion that anyone who got below Achieving Expectations in their appraisal or hit a sickness trigger point was also automatically on the redundancy list but the trade union had objected. I know at least one person who hit the sickness trigger and thinks that was why she was eventually let go after her interview.

  66. JettyMaxx*

    This thread is just in time bc I currently have a BIG PROBLEM and need advice ASAP!!

    I am in grad school and was hired as a part-time Graduate Assistant (GA) to the admin department to assist student affairs staff with faculty admin duties, student affairs, events, and things of that nature. I started in Jan at the beginning of the spring semester and my assistantship is scheduled to end in December 2014. This is not like a traditional job, the expectation is that the GA will stay for the full contract period (one year).

    About a month ago I started applying to part-time internships in my field since I have time to work another part-time job (during this semester I had another part-time internship in addition to my assistantship). Yesterday, I was offered an AMAZING paid internship opportunity at a well-known/great company in my field, doing exactly the work I am studying to do! They have a track record of hiring interns and they said that they will consider me for a full-time position after the internship ends. I am so excited! The internship pays more (the internship pays $26/hr while the GA pays $13/hr).

    There is one GIGANTIC problem: The internship is full-time! so I would have to quit the assistantship now in order to transition to the internship. I cannot do both since they both require availability during traditional weekday hours.
    Other Issues: I am leaving the admin dept during a very busy time (they are prepping for the fall semester and dealing with fall admissions) and to make matters more complicated, one of the staff members is on maternity leave for a few more weeks so they are already understaffed.

    Am I a huge asshole for taking the internship? How angry will the Admin dept be? How much of a reputational taint will it be if I quit? I’m freaking out about what to do and I need to decide soon (by 4pm today) so that I can give appropriate notice (I’d be giving 3 weeks).

    HELP?!? Any feedback/insight/advice/comments/stories are much appreciated!

    1. GigglyPuff*

      Comment:
      I don’t think it would be that bad, considering they would probably understand, and it seems like now would be the good time because they can hire a new GA from the fall applicants. Just make sure to let your boss know, how much you appreciated the position, and you feel terrible for leaving early.

      But can I say: “Holy crap! $26/hour???!!!” You really don’t need to feel bad about deciding to take that.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Plus I work in a dept that uses GA’s, and I know, one of the people I work with, was going to fire/not ask the GA to return next semester because of their quality of work. So if this is the appropriate time people usually use to fire GA’s, I think it’s a decent time for them to quit, also. (which ended up happening away, because I think they left the program)

      2. fposte*

        The problem I foresee is that they need a GA for this summer, so fall applicants aren’t likely to be eligible.

        However, since it sounds like a multi-year program, they may know somebody they can slot in immediately and still keep in the fall (JettyMaxx, if you have anybody to recommend, do so), so it would be less of an issue in that case. Additionally, it sounds like this might be a more generally clerical/admin job so that the skills required would be broadly available; I’d feel a little different about somebody leaving a job like that than one of my specialized positions.

        But anything you can do to maximize the time between when you tell them and when you actually go will help you here.

      3. JettyMaxx*

        Thanks! I know they won’t have trouble finding someone willing to fill-in, I just know that they are strapped for time and I feel bad adding this task on to their workload!

        P.S. I agree! I was floored when I saw that pay rate in the offer letter. I’m kinda glad I forked over a ton of money for grad school now if this is the going rate for interns! lol

        1. College Career Counselor*

          I think in general, full-time paid work trumps part-time. If you follow the advice above about transitions and possible recommendations for your replacement, I think you can minimize the reputational hit.

          1. JettyMaxx*

            Good to know! I actually know some classmates that would be very interested – Thank you!

      4. JettyMaxx*

        Thanks! I know they won’t have trouble finding someone willing to fill-in, I just know that they are strapped for time and I feel bad adding this task on to their workload!

        P.S. I agree! I was floored when I saw that pay rate in the offer letter. I’m kinda glad I forked over a ton of money for grad school now if this is the going rate for interns! lo

    2. fposte*

      Talk to your supervisor immediately. I think GAships are unlike non-student jobs in that the supervisors really are expected to factor education into their decision, and it really shouldn’t be held against you if you ask the question and decide to stay in the GAship anyway.

      What does worry me is the notice time, and that’s why I think you need to talk to your supervisor *right now* (should have been yesterday, in fact). Does the internship literally start Monday? Because that’s bad, and I think if so you should ask the internship if the start can be pushed back at all. A short-term departure is one thing, but a “Surprise! This is my last day!” is asking for trouble, especially when there’s a contract involved. So you need to involve other people on this ASAP to minimize the damage to you.

      Did the GAship give you tuition remission, by the way? Are you okay with losing that?

      1. JettyMaxx*

        Oh the internship starts on June 2 – I want to give plenty of notice though so that they can find a replacement bc I will most likely have to train them.

        I do get tuition remission and I’m okay with losing it, given this internship is in my field and matches what I plan to pursue as a career. I have savings and was already approved for student loans for the fall semester so I won’t be scrambling to pay tuition bills.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, I wasn’t sure how literal having to quit “now” was. I still say you need to talk to somebody there before end of day today, but three weeks’ notice should be enough for you to make a civilized departure that doesn’t burn bridges given the situation.

    3. Tomato Frog*

      Anyone who’s working at a university and would get mad at a graduate assistant for leaving to pursue an opportunity in their field of study, is in the wrong business. It sucks that you have to inconvenience them, but there’s not really a choice here.

        1. Tomato Frog*

          I’m honestly a bit surprised by everyone else’s responses. I am also a person who feels a great sense of responsibility to people I work for, and I would definitely feel guilty in your position — but reading your post my only thought was, “That’s not a real problem at all.” Yes, be professional and considerate, but given that your current GA job is not in your field, I can’t see that leaving a year-long student position early is going to hurt your reputation in any meaningful way.

          1. JettyMaxx*

            I definitely needed to hear something like this! Thanks so much for your comments

    4. Bryan*

      Did you have to sign anything when you received your GAship? I had to sign something that said if I left before it was done I would have to pay my stipend and tuition reimbursement back?

      Also when weighing your options do not count on it leading to full-time employment.

      1. JettyMaxx*

        Checking into that now! Thanks! Since I would be leaving after the end of the semester I don’t think I would have to pay back the tuition remission since assistantships are not automatically renewed semester to semester (they are contingent on good performance and good academic standing), but I am definitely going to double check on that now.

    5. Addy*

      I’m late to this party, but I supervise GAs/RAs in this exact situation, and every year we have people who get better gigs in their field and take them. We totally understand, and we expect this to happen. You should consider the bright side, which is that you’re vacating a position that someone else will be really happy to have (hello, tuition remission!). Just be as apologetic and nice as you can, and offer to find and train your replacement. Give as much notice as possible.

  67. EduStudent*

    Darn, missed the beginning of this but let’s see if people are still around. A few random questions:
    1. The number of comments on AAM threads got me thinking: how much time do you all feel is appropriate for not being on task during the workday? Put another way, how much of a break – internet surfing, walks, etc – do you feel you can take without feeling guilty? I know it probably varies by seniority and performance, so let’s say you’re entry level or with a few years of experience and an average performer. And with an average workload for you.
    2. It’s impossible for everyone to love what they’re doing 100% of the time they’re at work, I think. What % of time do you need to be happy or content to not be job searching?
    3. Any good book recommendations? I particularly like mysteries/dystopian fiction/etc and I’m in my 20s.

    1. PuppyKat*

      I’m too senior for #1, but would like to take on #2.

      I’m really picky about where I work, so I estimate that I need about 90% happiness. But I also recognize that there are always going to be things about my job that don’t necessarily contribute to that happiness, such as routine paperwork. For me, the major factors are feeling that I’m:

      – making a contribution
      – being trusted to run my department the best way possible

      When those two no longer apply, I start looking.

    2. Del*

      I don’t care much about actively happy, but I want my contentment to be high. Like, I do my work to get paid and get things done and grow professionally, and I don’t care much about it making me delighted to be there. But I want to feel productive, I want to get things done and be proud of my work, and I want to feel like my chain of command has my back when I have to take a stand on something.

    3. Mints*

      You should join the goodreads group! The link is in the “4 random” things yesterday.

      Have you read Cuckoo’s Calling? That’s the last mystery I read and I really liked it. And I’m not sure if it counts as dystopian (I’m bad at genres) but I LOVE “Shades of Grey” by Jasper Fforde (not the kinky book). A warning though, it’s the first of trilogy, and the rest isn’t published yet. It’s postapocalyptic totalitarian society based on color perception. Weird, I know, but it’s so absurd and well written. And once the plot picks up, you might be mad that the rest of the series isn’t done. I am! I’m still pining

      1. EduStudent*

        Thanks, Mints! I’ve heard that Cuckoo’s Calling is good from someone else, too, but haven’t had a chance to grab it from the library yet. And Shades of Grey sounds super interesting, so that’s definitely going on my list. I like postapocalyptic stuff a ton too. :)

        Thanks PuppyKat and Del, too, and looking forward to any other responses on all 3 questions!

        1. LoosieLibrarian*

          I read Shades of Gray. Pretty good. What about the Divergent series? The Hunt series by Andrew Fukuda? Raising Stony Mayhall by Daryl Gregory.

      2. LAI*

        Have you read Jasper Fforde’s other stuff? I like Shades of Gray but I LOVE his Thursday Next series. It’s about an alternate universe 1980s UK in which literature is one of the most important aspects of society and the main character is a literary detective for the government. Oh, and then she discovers that she has the ability to enter the Book World and interact with characters from fiction.

    4. Malissa*

      #1 the problem if you are average, people are going to notice when you do the other stuff. If you are a rock star, most people won’t care if you rock star your job for 4 or 8 hours a day. They’ll just notice that they are getting excellent results and not care too much about the rest.
      #2 i like my work, I just need a boss that will let me do my job. Give me that and I will be a rockstar. I’ve got two previous bosses that will vouch for that.
      #3 I shelf serf at thrift store to feed my reading habit. The books are cheap enough that I’ll try many different ones. James Patterson is one the authors I actively seek at the moment.

    5. De Minimis*

      1. The main thing I look at is if things are getting done to where other people and departments aren’t being inconvenienced. I think it’s not okay to keep stuff on my desk that someone needs me to sign off on [I do a lot of authorizing for requisitions and travel] or to have things held up in our information system because I haven’t gotten around to moving it on to the next level.
      Also, if it gets close to time for us to submit our monthly reports I need to be ready to discuss that with my boss, so I can’t goof around to the point of interference with that. That’s my main yardstick, if I’m slacking to where other people aren’t getting what they need when they need it, I’m slacking too much. If it’s something that only affects me, like filing my copies of the various paperwork or entering information into my copy of the database, I don’t feel like it’s a big deal to put that off.

    6. Kay*

      I really think #1 varies a LOT based on your position/role.

      For example, I’m an office manager and I do payables, billing, payroll, office supply orders, errands, etc. However, we’re a pretty small office and there can be a lot of down time. The days that I’m doing billing, if I take a break for more than just a few minutes to clear my head, that’s probably not a good choice. However, if it’s a day when there is no billing, payables just went out, all the filing is done, there are no supplies to order, so on down the list, I really don’t feel bad about doing some internet surfing because I’m there and ready and able to work and in 15 minutes my boss will probably come by with some task for me to do and by not being engrossed in another task, it allows me to accomplish whatever he wants quickly.

      I also think it matters if you work in a job based on billing clients. You should not be billing a client for your 20 minute break, but you shouldn’t take it down to the minute and make an effort not to charge them because you got up to go to the bathroom while you were working.

    7. Felicia*

      3. I have a thing for Dystopia too! I really liked the Partials series by Dan Wells, and highly recommend it. Also Adaptation by Malinda Lo is very different from the typical dystopian scenario, but very amazing/exciting read. There are also primary characters of diverse races and sexual orientations that I happen to like

      1. EduStudent*

        Thanks everyone! I’ve looked up all of your book suggestions and most look great! (I’m not huge on vampires/zombies, and I did really like Divergent. :)) Looking forward to getting a huge stack from the library soon.

  68. EG*

    Vent about loans/financing…I am desperately needing to get a loan with a house as collateral, no mortgage or liens. Bank tells me that my credit score is below their minimum requirements, so no loan. Even with my grandmother co-signing. Where did the days go when a person could go in with 4x the loan amount in collateral plus a co-signer and not get a loan?! Highly frustrated, as the majority of the loan is to buy a desperately needed tractor for the dirt road to my house in the country, so I don’t get flooded in and miss work. And the most recent good credit activity I have for a year now is not showing because the car lease place is too small so they don’t report to credit bureaus.

    1. Laufey*

      Where did the days go when a person could go in with 4x the loan amount in collateral plus a co-signer and not get a loan?!

      I think those disappeared sometime around 2007 or 2008, especially when the collateral is a house.

      Sorry about your problems though – credit is a complicated and annoying thing.

    2. Canadamber*

      Ouch, that sounds like a major pain in the ass!!! :( Did you screw up your credit before? It sounds like that really screws you over. >_<; Is there a possibility of buying a used cheaper tractor or something?

      1. EG*

        I have a voluntary turn-in of my first vehicle (just out of warranty it needed new engine that I couldn’t afford with $500/month payments) but I never missed a payment and negotiated paying off the balance with no missed payments. Only other negative is a disagreement with Verizon over early termination fees, since they seem to think that suddenly not having cell service at the rural address I’d had for 4 years was not relevant or their responsibility. I’m tired of fighting the last one, they told me no ETF would be charged and then hit my credit a year later for it. Planning to pay it to just get it gone.

        1. fposte*

          Is the problem that you don’t have long-term credit card history or other reported good use to balance these out?

          1. EG*

            Yes, I never had a credit card. Seems silly to “buy” credit by paying interest on credit cards but not when I need the credit score now. Well, lesson learned, I’m trying to get through the immediate crisis and then will work to improve the credit score.

            1. fposte*

              That’s what I figured from the way you described it. Yeah, they don’t just want the absence of bad things, they want a good history. In that sense it does have some similarities to hiring.

              1. EG*

                It certainly does seem like hiring. I’m especially frustrated that I’ve got good history with my current car loan, it’s just not on the report. I may be able to add a statement to my credit report, maybe refer credit checkers to call to verify the good history there.

            2. Canadamber*

              Some customers came through my work not too long ago and told me that they knew some people who couldn’t now buy a house or a car because they’d always paid for everything in cash, and had never had credit cards. I plan to transfer the one my parents signed for me into my name when I turn 18, and then start making small purchases on it. (I sometimes use it to buy groceries that my parents then pay down, but obviously that will stop.)

    3. fposte*

      Roughly speaking, the days went in 2008. A loan against your house isn’t much different from a mortgage, from the bank’s standpoint–either way, if it goes pear-shaped they end up with a house, and they don’t want yet another house.

      However, do you have other bank options, maybe something more local/ag friendly? Can you build your credit score up by paying down debt or taking out a secured credit card that you don’t keep a balance on?

      1. My Scintillating Pseudonym*

        It doesn’t really help your score if you pay the balance every month. As it was explained to me, if your balance is zero every month when they report (since you paid it off), it doesn’t show up any differently than a card that’s open but never gets used. In any case, building up your score takes more than a few months and I’m guessing they need the tractor for this fall.

        1. Bryan*

          But it does help that you have a good credit-debt ratio by not having a balance and no late payments.

        2. fposte*

          I’m seeing reports that says paying down debt can help you within a month or so, actually; FICO also does differentiate between unused accounts (length since used is specifically mentioned as a factor) and regularly paid accounts, and FICO explicitly states “Having credit cards and installment loans with a good payment history will raise your FICO Score. People with no credit cards tend to be viewed as a higher risk than people who have managed credit cards responsibly” (I’m assuming for the sake of the discussion that it’s the FICO score we’re talking about). Here’s an overview, and it’s worth going deeper in the site: http://www.myfico.com/crediteducation/whatsinyourscore.aspx
          Some of the repair attempt will depend on why EG’s score is low, of course, but there are definitely behaviors that can help some here in most cases.

        3. Colette*

          You can get around that.

          Let’s say you charge $10 every Monday. If you pay off the $10 every Tuesday, your balance will be $0 most of the time and it will be reported as such.

          If, however, you wait for the bill to be generated, you owe $40. You wait a week to pay it, so that you have $50 on the card. You pay off $40, so your balance is the $10 that has been charged since your last bill.

          You will never have a $0 balance, but you are still paying your card off in full every month.

        4. ThursdaysGeek*

          So paying off bills on time counts against you? If I pay off my credit card bill completely every month, that’s a bad thing, like never using the credit card at all?

          1. fposte*

            No, that’s not correct. Have a look at the FICO link I posted above–it mentions that payment history is about 35% of your score. Another 15% is the length of your credit history, so if you’ve been doing that for years that’ll bump you up as well.

      2. EG*

        I’m looking at all the options, a local bank says they’ll take a look at an application, even after I told the rep about the credit score up front. And I now have the report from my car lease showing that I haven’t missed a payment in a year, since that’s not on the credit report.

        I miss the old days, although I can understand why the bank doesn’t need another house to sell off.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Lots of questions.
          Can you finance the tractor at the place you are purchasing it from?
          Why can’t you use the tractor as collateral?
          How about a credit union? Sometimes they will make loans that others won’t. Maybe you can get a home equity loan. Or maybe they will accept the tractor as backup.

          I don’t know how big a job this is or how often you need to repair your road. Can you borrow a tractor? Can you pay someone to do it for you, would that be cheaper? Back to that barter word, would someone barter with you?

          Can your grandmother “buy” the tractor in her name and you pay her?

          Can you get a cheaper tractor that would work? Both my tractors have been used. My current one was old when we got it and I’ve had it for ten years. It shows no sign of stopping. We saved 60% plus off the price of a brand new one.

          Last one, thanks for putting up with all this- Does your town/county offer any program that would help you with your road? Start by checking with your town clerk and going up to your county clerk’s office. Maybe you can find a grant that would pay to get the work done.

  69. PuppyKat*

    Yaaaay! Open thread!

    I have a couple non-work questions. I’m traveling to D.C. next month to hit as many museums and monuments as possible in a long weekend. (So excited! Already have a ticket for the Washington Monument, my request submitted for the White House, etc.)

    I can’t afford any hotel or bed & breakfast in the city that I’ve been able to find on-line so far. So I booked a hotel in Arlington and was planning to take the Orange Line over. Does this sound like a good plan? How is the Metro for a lone woman to ride—especially in the evenings until 9:00 pm?

    Also, are there any must-see museums/institutions besides the Smithsonian and Library of Congress? This isn’t my first trip there—but it’s been a loooong time.

    Thanks so much for any advice you can give me!

    1. Stephanie*

      Orange Line in Arlington is fine at night. Most of the iffy parts of the orange line are in extreme eastern DC or MD, but even then, the train itself would be fine (and I don’t think you’d have any reason to be over there anyway, as a tourist).

      I looooooove the Kenilworth Aquatic Gardens in NE DC (the water lilies should be opening up soon), but it’s in a pretty awful part of town. It is near a Metro (and I think you’d be fine during the day). The arboretum is awesome, too, but it’s hard to get to without a car and is on the edge of town.

      The Kennedy Center top balcony is open to the public and has really awesome views of the Potomac.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Overall, the Metro is fine. I’m sure there are stops that are sketchy, but they aren’t likely places you’re going to be going as a tourist.

      My two favorite tourist things in DC are the zoo (especially with Bao Bao the baby panda there now!) and the Newseum (which is pricey but sooooooooooo interesting). Also please eat at Meskerem and Founding Farmers, i.e. my two favorite restaurants in the country.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Oh yeah, founding farmers is excellent. Have the Chicken and Waffles to be a true DC hipster :)

        2. Cat*

          I had a work lunch there last week and my co-worker ordered those; it looked fantastic. (My chicken pot pie was a little disappointing.) Note to self.

      2. Lo*

        I wholeheartedly second this comment…because Bao Bao (SO CUTE, I went to the naming ceremony which was really interesting)…and Founding Farmers. Make reservations online for Founding Farmers brunch…you will NOT regret it!! :)

    3. Katie the Fed*

      Metro is absolutely fine to ride alone. There are a few stops that are a little dodgier but that’s just the stops and you’re unlikely to be on them anyway. Orange line is fine. It’ll be really crowded during rush hour but that’s no biggie. Way better than driving.

      I didn’t even realize the Washington Monument was even open again, so that’s cool! And they’ve restarted White House tours, apparently? You might also contact your congressman’s office to get a Capitol Tour – they’re pretty cool.

      The weather is just gorgeous right now, so you might look into a boat tour on the potomac (or rent a kayak if you’re feeling adventurous) – it’s nice way to see the monuments and sights when the weather is good. You can also rent a bike through Capitol Bikeshare to get around if you want.

      Not sure which of the Smithsonians you want to see, but check the website to check on current exhibits. Other museums I really like are the Spy Museum and the Newseum. I’d spent a day though just doing the monuments and museums on the National Mall.

      If you like markets, Eastern Market on Capitol Hill is really nice and you can get some art and other things at the nearby flea market. It’s a nice area and a good place to get brunch or coffee too. I also really like Old Town Alexandria (King Street stop on the blue or yellow lines) – you can do a boat tour between Old Town and Georgetown and then walk around Georgetown. I’m underwhelmed by Georgetown but it’s definitely pretty.

      If you have specific interests or things you like to do, tell me more and I’ll give you more ideas. I don’t think there’s any place prettier than DC in the spring :)

    4. Aunt Vixen*

      You should be fine on the Orange line from Arlington to city things. And until 9pm is fine. No problem. The bits of Virginia that the Orange Line goes to are fine. I don’t know how old you are or how much time you spend in cities in general, but I’m a woman in my 30’s and I wouldn’t sweat it one bit.

      But take a look at wmata.com and make sure the train is running when you want it to run! They do a lot of work on weekends, and it’s important to know ahead of time if your line is single-tracking or shut down (which will involve longer wait times or bus bridges).

      1. PSB*

        This. So much this. WMATA can be awful on the weekends, it’s very much commuter rail.

    5. Audiophile*

      I was there last summer with a friend of mine, we stayed in the Arlington area and took the metro everywhere. We had a great time. We weren’t ever out extremely late. But we never felt unsafe either. We didn’t really hit any museums , as I wasn’t feeling well for most of the trip.

    6. Unmitigated Gal*

      I highly recommend seeing the monuments. The Korean War and Franklin Roosevelt are my favorites!

    7. PuppyKat*

      Wow, this is all great information—thank you all so much! I’ll try to incorporate as many suggestions into my trip as possible.

      Katie the Fed: I’m a history buff, and the main reason I planned this trip was to go to the Museum of American History to view Francis Scott Key’s original manuscript of the “Star-Spangled Banner” along with the actual flag that inspired him in 1814. Then I’ll shoehorn in as many other Smithsonian exhibitions as I can, as well as spend another day at the Mall. Plus, I’m waiting to hear back from my congressional representative’s office about tours of the White House, Capitol, Library of Congress, etc.

      I also work in the performing arts, so I’m hoping to take a tour of the Kennedy Center at some point, too. I can’t wait for next month!

      Thanks again!

      1. Katie the Fed*

        If you like the Kennedy Center there are free performances almost every night at the Millennium Stage

        If you have time you might want to make it out to the Udvar-Hazy Center of the Air and Space Museum. It’s out by Dulles but it’s very cool, especially for a history buff. The Enola gay is there and one of the space stations, among many other cool aircraft.

        1. PuppyKat*

          Ooooh, the Udvar-Hazy Center sounds cool! I enjoy aeronautics history, too. (My Dad served in the Army Air Corps during World War II.)

          Thanks for the tip!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            My dad did too! He ended up in Las Vegas. That was back when it looked like desert.

            1. PuppyKat*

              My Dad ended up in the South Pacific. So grateful that he was able to come back in one piece.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Yeah, really. wow. That was pretty nasty there. (Not that other places weren’t. Each place had it’s own unique nastiness.) My FIL ended up there, medical core, though. Never talked much about what he saw.
                He threw a lot of his army stuff overboard on the way home. I guess a lot of guys did that.

      2. Stephanie*

        Oh! Lincoln’s Cottage (where Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation) is in the Petworth/Park View neighborhood if you like touring historical sites.

        If you like battlefields (and will rent a car), Bull Run is out in Manassas, VA.

  70. Anon.*

    After a serious snafu at work involving a older version of a document, I’ve taken to putting “Updated [Date]” in the footer of all my word documents. Would that be a bad thing for resumes/CVs? My assumption is yes but I’m feeling a bit curious.

    1. OriginalYup*

      Well, an employer’s assumption is that what you’re sending them is fresh and up-to-date. So if your footer date is six months ago, that might leave a different impression than what you want.

      But re your version control concern: I don’t overwrite old version, I save-as a new version with the version date in the document title. (I remove it and use a nice clean naming convention before I send it anywhere.) And I keep a folder named Old Resumes, where I put all the past version (with the dates in the name string) for reference.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      My cv is always saved as a new document with the job title as the name, so is always a new document.

    3. Colette*

      This feels off to me – the assumption should be that your resume was updated specifically for the job you’re applying to. It seems odd to point out that you’re applying to multiple jobs (even though everyone knows it’s the case). It also kind of makes it seem like you’ve been looking for a long time, if you need to track when your resume was updated.

    4. Anon.*

      @ OriginalYup
      That sounds like a good idea. Will implement.

      @Apollo Warbucks
      That sounds like a good idea too. Will implement.

      @Colette
      No, no, I’ve got a job and I’m not looking. I do customize my resume for jobs when I apply but I keep a resume that has all my jobs/activities so I don’t forget anything (I’ve done so in the past). I was just doing the usual biyearly resume updating and wondered if I should add the “updated” note. And then I wondered what would happen if I accidentally forgot to remove it before I sent it off.

      Thanks for weighing, everyone!

  71. Franchise?*

    Has anyone every opened a franchise? Been through the process? My husband and I are kicking around the idea of becoming franchise owners of a specialty shop and were curious about any stories of success or woe.

    It’s a shop we have visited in other cities and love, plus we have a friend of a (close and trusted) friend who owns one. We plan to connect with him on specifics but were just curious about general franchising anecdata.

    Thanks!

    1. Sabrina*

      My friend’s parents did. They had a very bad experience, but all companies are different. I would say do a lot of research to know what your franchise fees get you and what other franchisees experiences are. My friend’s parents didn’t have the Internet for research at the time.

    2. Stephanie*

      My dad owned a Mobil franchise (this 18 years ago before the ExxonMobil merger and when gas was less than a dollar a gallon). He happened to start the franchise through a special program that was trying to recruit more minority franchisees (maybe look to see if the company has any special programs?).

      He liked working for himself, but in his words, he said he never worked so hard for so little money. I think this was less the company franchise program and more the nature of owning a gas station. Gas stations don’t make a lot of money from the gas itself (I think he said he got about 3% from gasoline sales), so most franchises have to have things like car washes, snacks, auto repair, video gambling (this was legal in Texas and my dad put one in at one time). He couldn’t pay his employees much above minimum wage (which in the late 90s in Texas was something like $5.50/hr), so he got some pretty unreliable employees. For him, the last straw was when he got robbed working an overnight shift (he was suspicious it was an employee he recently fired).

      He did that for about five years and went back into corporate America. I think a lot of this, however, was the nature of the business and not the franchise program itself. Just do your research.

  73. PX*

    Well poop, this is what I get for being an hour late. 2 questions for ya’ll:

    1. I’m in an entry level role and during my year at work, have had to sort of supervise/’manage’ a couple of interns we’ve had. Nothing official, but mostly due to everyone else being busy. Its actually been a good experience for me in terms of discovering/developing some leadership skills. Question – is this appropriate to put on a resume? Or should I just keep in mind my experiences for answers to interview questions?

    2. Following on from this, I’ve noticed I have a bad habit of only giving them explanations to specific questions/problems, and perhaps if I spent more time explaining the background behind some things, their life would be easier. Part of the reason I dont go into too much detail is because they’re here for short periods of time, and neither of them is actually looking into doing this type of work in future. So part of me feels like there’s no point in explaining technical things to them which they might not understand and dont really care about. (I’ve also heard my boss give a similar comment). Truthfully I feel kind of bad because I learnt so much from other people taking the time to explain stuff to me, so the idea that I’m hoarding info doesnt sit well with me. On the other hand, both of these interns haven’t shown much initiative in terms of trying to figure things out themselves (a pet peeve of mine), so part of me is just tired of having to explain things. Am I just being petty by not giving more extensive explanations? Or is it okay to just say, do x,y,z and leave it there?

    1. fposte*

      On 1: include “Supervised interns” (only put more descriptively) as part of your job duties on your resume.

      On 2: I can’t tell if want to explain more to them or not–are you regretful that you don’t have the time, or just wondering if they’d be interested? If the latter, why not ask them? “I know this isn’t the field that you guys are looking at long-term, but sometimes it’s interesting to have the bigger picture–do you have interest in learning more about the backstory, or do you want to focus more on the work in front of you for this internship?”

    2. CTO*

      I think the interns are totally resume-worthy. Maybe something like “directed interns’ daily activities” would make it clear that you weren’t the actual manager, but still had some supervisory duties.

  74. Windchime*

    I’m venting about a weird run-in I had with a manager yesterday (not mine, thank goodness). He is the manager of the team I have mentioned before where they stand around and whisper and giggle and flirt all day.

    We’ll call the manager Chris. Chris was seated in his office and his employee, Joe, was standing in the doorway. They were having a loud, long personal conversation that went on for 40 minutes. (I didn’t time it; someone who sits next door to the office was noticing the time). I got up to make tea, and on the way back I said (with a friendly voice and a smile), “Do you guys mind if we close this?” while patting the door. Most managers here would say, “Oh, gosh, so sorry, yes, please close it.” Chris looked at me and said in a nasty voice, “You guys are noisy all the time and WE don’t complain!”. Remember, this guy is a *manager*. He makes a habit of sitting in his office (which has a DOOR) and talking loudly with whomever he can draw in. Door always open.

    I was taken aback and said, “I wasn’t complaining, just asking”. Joe says, “We were done anyway”. But then they proceeded to continue chatting for another 5 minutes. Apparently after I walked away, Chris also said something disparaging about one of my co-workers.

    So, so rude, childish and unprofessional. It’s really beyond me how managers like this continue to be supported and promoted.

  75. Ask a Manager* Post author

    A few people have suggested recently splitting up the 5-answer posts into their own individual posts (which would mean 7-8 separate posts a day rather than 3-4).

    Advantages:
    * you wouldn’t have to dig through comments on other questions if you were only interested in one or two
    * some questions draw all the attention in the 5-answer posts, which means the others don’t get any response in the comments; this would presumably change that at least a little

    Disadvantages:
    * many more posts per day which might create an overall feeling of clutter or just be overwhelming

    It wouldn’t be that much more work for me; the writing is the time-consuming part, not the post formatting.

    I think I want to keep it the way it is; I like it this way and 5-8 posts a day just feels … excessive, but I’d be interested in hearing other people’s thoughts.

    1. Adam V*

      I prefer one large post; sometimes, though, I feel like each post should have 5 top-level comments saying “Reply to this comment to discuss story #1/2/3/4/5”. That way, it’d be easier to see what has already been said about each question.

      1. Canadamber*

        Maybe you could space them out a little more? Like, all of the posts – because it seems to me like they all come in early afternoon, then there’s nothing to read in the evening. But maybe I’m just oblivious. :)

          1. Katie the Fed*

            yeah but she posts at midnight, 11am, 1230 and sometimes 2. After that (especially for west coast people) there’s a veritable drought! It’s hell, I tell ya!

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I do midnight, 11 a.m., 12:30 p.m. 2 p.m. most days — but that’s DC time, so it’ll be totally off for other time zones.

          1. Canadamber*

            Right, I forgot to mention the midnight post. Best thing about staying up late, actually. xD; “Where is the short answer post where is iiit” hahaha

          2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            I love midnight post!

            I get up crazy early and AAM is what I do before my work email.

            I miss midnight open thread. You did that for the Europeans for a bit and that worked out really well for me.

            Just sayin’. whistles

            1. ThursdaysGeek*

              Yeah, but it’s time for a west coast open thread (and by then, it will just be us on, and the number of comments will go way down).

              1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

                I can support this!

                Even though I am East Coast, the East Coast time doesn’t work for me. I can’t get on during normal work hours.

                You were thinking about what’s good for me, right? :p

        3. EAA*

          Like the idea of the comments being separated. There are times I have to go back up to the original posting to refresh my memory. Then finding where I was in the comments isn’t always easy

    2. Anonsie*

      Maybe not all individual posts– but the ones that seem like they’ll get a lot of comments (which is usually fairly predictable) could be their own and the ones that only generate a few could go together.

      1. Kay*

        This. Or maybe if it’s possible depending on what questions come in to combine questions that are related in topic somehow. I know you’ve done a few of those posts before where you’ll have 2 or 3 questions about a similar topic, but answer them individually.

    3. A Non*

      I agree 5-8 posts a day is excessive. The comment clutter is fine by me, in fact I think it brings out tangents that we wouldn’t think of otherwise.

    4. Ash (the other one!)*

      I like the one post. I think the answer is more towards the collapsing comments that I think you said you’re working on.

    5. Bryan*

      5-8 seems like too many.

      I know there was previous discussion about splitting the post up into 2. I like that one since one question can dominate the comments.

    6. Persephone Mulberry*

      I think giving each short answer it’s own post would be excessive and yes, cluttery.

      Once upon a time I suggested, and still like, the idea of doing two short-answer posts of 3 questions each; you could stick the second one into that evening (US time) gap and kill two requests with one stone.

    7. Colette*

      I wish there were more posts in the morning (I’m on the East coast and I work with a lot of people on the West coast, so my mornings are slower at work) but I realize that wouldn’t work for a lot of people. I’m fine with the way it is.

    8. Mimmy*

      Yeah, 5-8 posts a day would be a lot. Until the collapsible threads can be implemented, I’d say that remind readers to clearly include which topic they’re responding to in their comment. It is especially helpful if you include the header for that topic, or even just a couple of key words.

    9. Sharm*

      As someone way out West (i.e. past the West Coast), anything to get posts up later in the day is fine by me. I always finish each day wishing there were more posts. It looks like the group consensus is 7-8 posts is too much, but I think you could definitely add another 1-2 per day and not experience significant fatigue. If anything, I think there’s a huge hunger out there right now.

      Just a different perspective.

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, I’m up for later posts, too. They end by 11:30-noon my time and I end up expecting something in the afternoon.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      I’m cool with whatever–I usually read AAM on my tea break, at lunchtime, and in the late afternoon when my brain is fried for the day (like now).

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I like it the way it is now- I prefer to read everything. Friday is a killer for me. But the other days are good. I think if you added more, I would have to just start reading the questions that where highly interesting to me OR that I know have immediate practical use.

      I think staggering the times is great.

      Sometimes when you do a group of short answers there is no way to predict that one particular question is going to win 500 posts. That is when the problem happens where other questions get lost. But some of those lost questions are pretty cut and dried- the answer is very clear and you have nailed it as usual. So maybe no one feels the need to expand on that?
      Would an FAQ section help at all?
      Or could you re-post the lost question in blue block on the open forum?

    12. Sydney*

      I think the current setup is fine, but I’m also cool with splitting those short answer posts into 2 per day. The only posts I have trouble sorting through comments is open threads, and that will be greatly improved with collapsible comments.

  76. Canadamber*

    Okay, so I just got the email that a question that I sent in to Alison will be published on Saturday morning!!! Eeeeeee! :) I just read over my email again and I sound really stupid, ugh. xD;

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Is there Dramah? Will we all go wtf!??

      Most importantly:

      Is It Legal?

      1. Canadamber*

        Sadly, no, no, and yes. :P

        But I neeeed to find a question like that to ask. xD; (But employment laws are totally different, being Canada and all…)

          1. Felicia*

            Probably true!

            I think the Canadian version of “Except in California” would be “Except in Quebec” :)

    4. Stephanie*

      Just based on your posts, you sound way more mature and thoughtful than most 16-year-olds (17?) I know. You’re reading a career advice blog already!

  77. Vancouver Reader*

    I feel like my cover letter writing is an exercise in futility, so the next job I apply for, I’m going to plagiarize one of the examples of cover letters here and use that instead. And if they don’t hire me based on that, I will put a voodoo curse on them because that’s the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s will.

    1. fposte*

      Don’t forget to send along a framed picture of yourself. Hiring managers can’t resist that.

      2. Malissa*

        And a $2 starbucks card! Because everybody loves getting enough for half a drink.

        1. AMD*

          And something inappropriate like frilly panties or a Duck Dynasty bobble head, to show you have a sense of humor.

    2. Vancouver Reader*

      Thanks you! I knew I’d miss a few of those very important things that gets you the prize job. Where would I be without you guys? ;)

  78. AnotherAlison*

    Last year, there was a great opportunity for a corporate strategy position at a place I used to work that was that close to getting. I was really disappointed, but not long after the dust settled, they announced the CEO was retiring (obviously in the works long ahead of time, but I was not aware that it was imminent). When I found out who the new CEO would be, I definitely though bullet dodged. Well, 6 months later, the VP I would have been working for (who reported directly to the CEO) is gone. I assume he left on his own, as he had a new position immediately, but yeah, that’s something to watch in the ol’ corporate strategy department. Not all execs value those roles. So glad I did NOT get that position.

  79. Kay*

    I’m late to the party I know, but I’m pretty excited. I had a phone interview yesterday with a company and she actually told me that she decided to call me based on my cover letter alone before she even read my resume! How cool is that? I’m really learning so much from reading this blog every day!

    4. Vancouver Reader*

      Good for you! That’s really wonderful and I hope you get the job, if it’s what you really want.

      1. Kay*

        Thanks! It would be a big change from my current job, and I’m still figuring out if what the company does would be a good fit for me, but I’m getting more and more confidant with my cover letter skills. So whether or not this is the “dream” job, I know I’ll find something :-)

  80. Persephone Mulberry*

    HOUSE UPDATE! Refresher: two weekends ago, our landlord gave us our 30 days’ notice to move out. We found a couple places to look at right away, but they were ehhhh.

    Last Saturday, we looked at a house we liked pretty well, but we didn’t put in an application because we wanted to know for sure whether the owner would let us keep our cats before we spent $90 on application fees. The weekend went by, nothing, nothing, nothing.

    Monday morning I was doing my first Craigslist scan of the day to see if anything new had come up, and I found a listing that seemed too good to be true, except the ad said available November 1. The ad specifically mentioned wanting long-term tenants, so I figured maybe they had just signed someone to a 6-month lease and were regretting it. So I figured, what the hell, and sent a text that said, “I assume you just signed someone to a short-term lease but we’re looking for June 1 if it doesn’t work out.” And he called me right back!! It was a typo in the ad (he thought it was weird that the ad had been up for five hours with no calls, LOL) and the place WAS available June 1. So we went to look at it Monday night, loved it, got the pets ok’ed and put in our application. This house is far superior to the one we’d tentatively decided on.

    And I’ve been waiting on tenterhooks for four days to hear something (our income and rental history is good but our credit is far from perfect).

    I was going to send a text this morning to check in, because if things are not looking good we should probably put in the app for our second choice place ASAP (the other lady got back to me on Tuesday that the cats are ok), but he texted me first and said that things are looking really good so far. WHEW.

    Just think…if 1) the owner of the first house had gotten back to us on the pet issue sooner and 2) if I hadn’t ignored the bizarre available date and called anyway…we would have bypassed an awesome house completely.

    Now I just need the final OK that we’re approved, and to sign some paperwork and write a really fat check, and we’ll be in business.

  81. CTO*

    Bad interview processes: a dealbreaker for you, or just a red flag?

    I interviewed this week at a large corporation that has very strict hiring practices in an attempt to improve diversity. The interview had to ask all candidates the same questions (only six) and could not ask any follow-up questions.

    The interview went well overall, and I liked the hiring manager, but it seems like there’s such a risk of having coworkers who don’t have the skills or fit the team needs, because the interview assessments are so limited.

    Would an interview process like that turn you off from a job completely? Or just be a red flag but not a complete deterrent?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Asking the same questions wouldn’t bother me, because that’s how we do things.

      Not being allowed to ask follow-up questions would bother me a LOT. That tells me that they don’t really care about what employees think and don’t view an employment relationship as a two-way thing. I wouldn’t work there.

      1. CTO*

        Yeah, being asked the same questions doesn’t bother me at all. But there were only six questions and they were pretty general (related to the job duties, but not very in-depth, not situational, just “tell me about your experience with x” kind of stuff). Paired with not being able to ask follow-ups, it doesn’t seem like the hiring manager would have been able to get that in-depth with people (and they said that this may be the only round of interviews they do).

        I did really appreciate that the hiring manager spent the rest of the time (since the question period was so short) giving a LOT of detail about the job and department, and they were definitely an open book with answering the questions I asked. So it wasn’t an all-around bad interview, but I was just curious where other people draw the “dealbreaker” line.

        1. doreen*

          It’s the interviewer that can’t ask follow-up questions, right? I don’t particularly like that style of interviewing from either side, but that’s how my employer handles interviews for promotions. Everyone gets the same five or six questions, and the interviewers can repeat the questions but questions from the interviewee can’t be answered during this part of the interview and the interviewers can’t ask follow up questions. .
          The questions aren’t about skills at all – they’re trying to get at how you think. I just had one last week ( wish me luck) and the questions were:
          1) What policy should be eliminated and why?
          2)What policy should be added and why?
          3) You walk in on your first day, and you have the following six messages on your desk. In which order would you handle them and why?
          4) One of your five offices is understaffed, but the budget doesn’t allow for hiring. Give three strategies for addressing the issue and your reasons.
          5) How would you go about assessing your needs for staff and equipment ? What reports would you find helpful in conducting this assessment? What type of report that is not currently produced would be helpful?

          At least part of the reason for the ban on additional questions during this part is so that everybody is answering the same question and part is because it’s more realistic – for example,one of the messages was from a senator’s office with a complaint about an employee. If some of the interviewees asked for and were given the nature of the complaint, they really wouldn’t be answering the same question as the others. And it wouldn’t be realistic because messages from legislators’ offices are always vague.

          After that part, the interviewee can ask questions- but it’s generally not a good idea since in most cases you’re interviewing for the same title as your immediate supervisor.

    2. Malissa*

      Well I had a really bad interview three weeks ago that was a deal breaker for me. They had no questions for me and really couldn’t define the work for the position.

      1. De Minimis*

        Those were always the absolute worst interviews for me…even the tough interviews where I bombed were better, since I at least knew where I stood.

    3. Unmitigated Gal*

      Asking the same questions is common, so I wouldn’t weight that too heavily. Not having any follow up questions is a bit more odd. I would see how the rest of the process goes before you rule it out.

      1. fposte*

        I love your username! I feel like I saw it before and never really caught it.

  82. rollcake*

    How do I make my cats drink from the pet fountain I got for them? So far they seem too afraid to approach it, even when I lure them with treats. I just want them to be well-hydrated!!

    Is there a nice way to tell a friend with a new girlfriend that although I’m very happy she’s happy, I don’t want to hear every schmoopy detail? (Alas, it just reminds me that I’m single and bitter :P)

    1. Katie the Fed*

      For the cats – don’t worry about it. They’ll drink if they want to. They’re cats – animals are pretty good at making sure they get their basic needs met. If you’re really concerned though make sure you’re giving them wet food.

      On the friend – I don’t think there’s a nice way, but it depends how close you are. You might just be best giving limited feedback “mmmm” and not really egging her on, and trying to change the subject, until she gets the hint. If she doesn’t get the hint after another month then maybe be more blunt.

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        I have a cheap, white mug on the windowsill that I fill up with water and my cat seems to like it.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Oh that’s a good point. My cat prefers to drink out of a drinking vessel that someone else is using. The dog’s bowl, my water glass. We can’t leave water glasses unattended because you’ll find him a second later licking water off his paw.

          1. rollcake*

            Thanks for the tips! I have a small water dish (no fancy moving water, just in a ceramic bowl) in the other room that at least one of them seems to prefer. I was hoping to entice the other one to drink more and had heard that they prefer running water, but that doesn’t seem to be the case!

            Both are shelter cats and must have been very well trained before they came to me – they will jump on the couch or bed but have never tried to get on tables, counters, my desk, etc., and won’t do more than politely sniff at my food and drink. Very lucky for a first time cat owner!!

            1. Persephone Mulberry*

              We have one of those water dishes that have the reservoir jug on top – you can plug it in so that the water in the bowl circulates, but my cats HATE that. So we never plug it in…the reservoir part is sure handy, though. And the one cat likes to sit on top of it and bop the other one on the head when he walks by, which is hysterical.

            2. Anonylicious*

              My cat absolutely refused to drink out of the fountain I got her, which I got because she was turning on the bathroom faucet and drinking out of that. I solved the problem by getting her a wider water dish; it turned out she just didn’t like her whiskers hitting the side of her old one.

          2. chewbecca*

            I had find a cup with a lid for my nightstand after being woken up in the middle of the night one too many times with water gushing and my unashamed cat staring at me.

            My former roommate has an adorable Siamese who lurrrrved him some straws. I had to be very careful about leaving him alone in a room with a fountain drink because more often than not he’d knock the drink over to try to get to the straw.

            1. Canadamber*

              Hahaha!!! I can so relate, because my cat just loves straws! She’ll climb onto the table and paw at any drink with a straw in it until she’s successful in getting the straw out of it. :P

      2. CTO*

        Cats actually aren’t that good at sensing and addressing their thirst–that’s why wet food is so important, because they often won’t drink enough water on their own.

        Our cat isn’t really enticed by running water at all. He completely quit drinking out of his own water bowl, to the point that we don’t even bother to give him one. But he does love drinking out of the toilet (which doesn’t gross us out) and out of people’s water glasses (which does gross us out just a little). If the toilet lid is down he’ll lap up the little water puddles that remain in the bottom of the bathtub.

        1. Tinker*

          My cat licks the water off my legs after I’ve taken a shower. About the cutest darn thing ever.

          2. Sydney*

            My beagles do that, too! They prefer it to all other water it seems. I’m okay with it.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          I put ice cubes in my outdoor kitty’s water to make sure it’s not too hot (I don’t think she likes it that way).

          Do I have to feed wet food EVERY day? I don’t have a problem with her eating it–she inhales it.

    2. Anonicorn*

      RE Cats:
      If it has a pump, they might be put off by the sound it makes and/or the motion of the water. You could try unplugging it for a while to let them get used to being near it.

      I’ve given my cats a few pet fountains, and it seems like my male cat shows more interest in drinking from them than my female cat. I don’t know if that’s an actual gender difference in felines, or if that’s him being peculiar since he also likes drinking from the sink, laying in the sink, and “swimming” in the tub.

    2. Bryan*

      “Get in contact with someone there, send emails, don’t stop until he or she is tired of dealing with you. The worst that can happen is that you don’t get a meeting and you move on.”

      The worst that can happen is you get black listed from an industry.

      I’ve said it before but sometimes I wonder if i was hired because I was the best candidate or simply not the worst.

  84. Jeanne*

    Is it possible any more for companies to be ethical?

    I don’t know if this is the right place to ask but the people here are very smart. This came to mind today with a news item. Here in PA someone is working on a law to make sure natural gas drillers give the correct royalties to land owners. The gas companies object to the law. I find it discouraging that they object to paying the amounts agreed to in a contract. That seems so unethical (also prob illegal).

    We hear so many stories of companies that back up terrible managers and lose good talent. We hear of horrible working conditions justified by at least you have a job. The main advice to difficult situations is to find a new job because there’s no one to appeal to.

    Is it possible for a company to be ethical and still make money? Are there any ethical companies left? Places where they attempt to treat employees well and in return productivity is good.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Costco is a very ethical company that makes good money. You should read up on their management philosophy and style – they really treat employees well and it shows. Trader Joes also treats employees well. I like to patronize places with happy employees.

      2. De Minimis*

        My city is finally getting its first Costco sometime next year [first in our state as well.] Of course, it’s possible we may not even be living there by then, but hopefully if not we’ll be someplace that already has Costco!

      3. AVP*

        There’s a great essay out there on the internet (don’t have time to google it, but I’m sure it would be easy to find) thanking Costco for being a great employer – specifically for hiring and promoting the writer’s mentally disabled brother (I think) and generally treating their employees really well. Go Costco!

        1. Windchime*

          One of my kids worked for Costco for about three years and it was a great place to work. They promote from within, and he held several interesting positions there and made decent money, had health insurance and sick/vacation pay. He only left because he went to university, and then didn’t want to work retail hours when he got done with school.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      It looks like the PA case you’re referring to centered on Chesapeake Energy during the time Aubrey McClendon was CEO. Saying there are no ethical companies based on the practices of that guy who has been blasted for questionable business ethics seems a little overreaching to me.

      1. De Minimis*

        Ugh, I am so sick of that guy….people act like he’s some kind of god around here.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          He was the luncheon keynote speaker at a conference I went to just a few weeks before he was ousted as CEO, so I definitely got a feel for the groupie worship. [Of course he’s landed quite firmly on his feet since his ‘retirement’ from Chesapeake. Those kind of guys seem to win more than they lose.]

      2. Jeanne*

        It’s not so much that case as it led me to thinking about companies in general and what I read here and have experienced myself.

    3. rollcake*

      It’s possible, but rare to hear about it. I’ll link it in a separate reply, but there is a nice article on Forbes about the regional grocery store Publix vs Walmart and how Publix takes care of its employees and customers. Makes me wish I had it where I live now! I like to reward companies that deserve it with my hard-earned money :)

      3. Daisy*

        I always missed Publix when I was living outside of FL. And very happy when I moved back.

    4. CTO*

      Check out some of the Fortune “Best Places to Work” and I think you’ll find some ethical companies that care about more than just the bottom line (or have figured out that caring actually improves their bottom line). I have a side gig and REI and would call them an ethical company, and they’re still profitable.

  85. Anon*

    Does anybody have any advice to give or experiences to share about how to find some sort of direction in your career?

    As a bit of background, I’ve been at a company for 3 and a half years (this is my first full-time job after university) and have achieved pretty much everything that it’s possible to achieve in my role, had my success recognised throughout the company, won various prizes etc. I have a bit of a problem with self-analysis in that I tend to think of myself as either “okay” or “a bit rubbish” at everything, nothing too extreme either way. Combine that with all the people I work with, including my supervisors and up several rungs up the ladder, who always tell me I’m brilliant at everything and can do whatever I want, and I find myself in a position where I haven’t really been able to rule anything out. I’ve succeeded in more or less everything I’ve attempted and I’ve enjoyed most of it, too.

    I’ve just been accepted on to a leadership course at my company and everybody else seems to have very strong ideas about how they want it to benefit them and what direction they’re going in. I actually feel a bit guilty for taking up one of the places on this course (which has very few places and was enormously oversubscribed, we all had to go through quite a gruelling application process just to get on it). There are opportunities all over the company but I feel (and have felt for a year or more) that I’m stuck at a crossroads and not moving in any direction. I’m generally not indecisive but when it comes to my career and my future, I find it painfully difficult to commit to one path or another.

    In short, I’m a jack of all trades, I need a purpose or a plan and I have no idea where to start.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I honestly think most people fall into their careers as much by luck and timing than an actual plan. The ones who have a clear idea – good for them! But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with not having a 10 year plan – things change and you adjust as they do. As long as you’re constantly challenging yourself and trying to learn new things, I think that’s fine. You’re still young enough in your career I don’t think you need to have it all mapped out.

  86. Shell*

    IT gurus! Just a question of why this happened to my computer last night.

    So, my data drive is having problems. Last night, I disconnected my optical drive to plug its SATA cable into the failing drive. I plugged a flash drive in and ran some data-scrubbing software to destroy the sensitive data before I send the drive to the shop under warranty.

    Everything went fine. I shut down my computer fully, then disconnected the power. Then I disconnected the faulty drive, packed it up, and removed the flash drive (while the computer was shut off). Reconnected the optical drive, and then booted the computer up.

    In windows 8.1 under my computer, it was showing the disconnected flash drive AND the disconnected HDD. The optical drive didn’t show up. I actually turned around to look at the disconnected HDD and flash drive to make sure I wasn’t hallucinating. of course, I couldn’t open said drives in Windows. Tried to do a reboot but it was spinning at the “restarting” screen for a minute or so (usually it’s quite fast unless I do a windows update).

    I gave up, did a hard reboot with the reset button, and upon reset the optical drive was detected, the removed drives were not detected, and everything runs smoothly again.

    So there’s no problem (I hope!), but I’m curious as to why that happened. BIOS should redo its POST tests upon a cold start, right? I’ve never seen this before!

    Any computer wizards (Jamie!) know why?

    1. fposte*

      Maybe this is more significant on Windows, but I have inappropriate drive permanence on my Mac all the time, and I don’t really worry about it. I either force eject them or ignore them.

      1. Shell*

        I didn’t think of trying to force eject the USB, but the HDD was on SATA so no eject possible. It just totally baffled me because in my previous swapping of SATA cables and testing the drive (I’ve had issues all week, finally narrowed it down to the drive a day or so ago) the computer never had issues detecting hardware changes. (Mind, I’ve only booted successfully into Windows a handful of times this week during my testing spree, so that may not have been saying much.)

        I’m just radiating bad technology auras this week. :)

    2. Jamie*

      When you plugged in the flash with the scrubbing software did you still boot from your hard disk, or was it a live ISO drive? Because if you booted from the flash sometimes bios can get pissy.

      But upon rereading your hard drive housing you OS is fine – so if I’m correct and it was just the extra storage you disconnected I don’t know why BIOS would be jacked up.

      Your boot sequence is hard drive first I’m assuming? Not some alternate set up like CD or USB first them HD?

      Yeah, I got nothing, I’ve never seen this before. But I’ve seen plenty of weird things that I can’t explain that go away with a reboot. One time I saw a computer populated the entire alphabet of drives – all seemingly disconnected duplicates of the shared drive. A reboot and they went away.

      The existential me wants to suggest that maybe it was just expressing dissatisfacton with you removing it’s beloved drive…but the real me just knows that computers do weird stuff sometimes. (That’s the technical explanation.)

      I’ll keep checking here as I’d love to learn if someone knows why this happened.

      1. Shell*

        Windows 8 (and 8.1) apparently has this bizarre thing that you can’t boot from USB/optical drives unless you do a restart with their advanced settings into UEHI or something. I won’t link because it’d send me to moderation, but google “windows 8 boot to USB” and there’s a nice summary on zdnet that explains it. My BIOS is set to boot USB, optical SATA, then HDD but that hasn’t done anything for me all week upon a regular restart. Which I think is a really stupid system because a lot of time when a system crashes YOU CAN’T GET INTO WINDOWS. Grr.

        I did discover workarounds this week while I was working on this (and swearing profusely). My BIOS has two different boot menus. There’s the regular one in Standard System Settings (which I tried modifying as above and didn’t affect it at all). There’s a special F12 boot menu (normal BIOS is accessed by DEL on my computer) that can let me one-time select what to boot from, and I can force my computer to boot to optical or USB optical using that, but not USB-FDD. (Unless USB-FDD means something different than USB flash drive.)

        I CAN boot to USB flash if I go into the regular boot menu (from DEL, and the one that doesn’t really work), and in a separate selection, select “Hard drive boot order” (rather than stating Boot Order 1 is Hard Drive A, Boot Order 2 is Hard Drive B, etc. my BIOS groups them into Hard Drive, CD-ROM, LAN, etc. and I have another selection to delineate hard drive boot order), and somehow my USB flash drive shows up in the hard drive boot order so I can force it to boot from there without using the Windows method. Bizarre, I tell you. And stupid, too.

        ANYWAY. That was kind of long-winded to say that yes, I did put USB, optical, and then system drive as the boot order, but Windows 8 basically ignores my BIOS boot order anyway so it doesn’t make a difference–it booted straight to system HDD. Plus that particular flash drive has nothing bootable on it. Now, the optical drive DID have Seatools DOS in it, which is bootable, but it didn’t try booting from optical since I didn’t use the F12 boot menu and Windows didn’t recognize the optical drive that time anyway.

        1. Shell*

          Whoops, that’s supposed to be UEFI, not UEHI. Anyway, so the story goes that Windows 8 doesn’t quite rely on BIOS the same way the older OSs do so it bypasses that entirely, so the special startup is supposed to give you an option to switch into the older BIOS mode (I think that’s the UEFI) from whatever it was before so you can boot to USB or optical. My research (which I can’t find because it was from a few days ago) says that although switching to that magical mode will let you boot to USB/optical, you can’t boot to Windows 8 using that mode–you have to switch it back. Now, perhaps the advanced restart from windows is only a one-time deal (otherwise, how do you switch it back if you’re not in Windows, which is how you switched it in the first place?) and you can do a change of that magical setting in BIOS somewhere, but I am not erudite in computers and hell if I’m going to try fiddling with this.

        2. Jamie*

          I’m pasting this into a document and saving it – coming on the week I just deployed my first Windows 8 machine you saved me googling the first time I need to boot from disk.

          Seriously, thanks for taking the time to type this out – I’m sure I’m not the only person you’re saving in advance. :)

          1. Shell*

            Glad to help! Someone getting use out of my freaking out and fiddling around makes it not a gigantic waste of time. (Between the semi-failing drive making Windows lag like crazy–I’m talking like a 8 minute bootup and freezing on desktop–and the inability to boot to USB/optical, I thought my computer bricked itself.)

            I found out the BIOS workarounds by luck and fiddling, but it’s not the official guide. I have yet to find any sources telling me how to boot to USB/optical if you didn’t have my particular BIOS options AND your system is borked enough to be unable to boot to Windows to use the advanced restart function. It’s an incredibly stupid system if you ask me.

          2. Shell*

            Just going to add a quick update…

            Upon writing the screed above I realized I missed something kind of obvious: if I can force the computer to boot from USB via changing the hard drive disk order to USB first, then the system is treating my flash drive like a hard drive and thus my selection on the F12 boot menu should be USB-HDD, not USB-FDD. (I always thought FDD was flash-based media like SSD and thumb drives, while HDD was reserved for platter-based hard drives…)

            Turns out I’m right, so I can force boot to USB, USB-CDROM, and CDROM directly from the F12 boot menu even though the computer likes ignoring the boot menu in the BIOS setup. So that might be easier than trying to find a hard drive order to manipulate.

            I maintain I still don’t know what to do for BIOS who doesn’t have a one-time override boot menu though.

            1. Onymouse*

              I have nothing really relevant to add, but my first thought about “FDD” was “Floppy Disk Drive”. I suppose that some would connect an external one via USB (seeing as how internal ones have gone the way of the dodo), though I don’t understand why it’s a separate entry in your BIOS.

  87. Kevin*

    I’m in the late stages of interviewing (i.e. – third round) for a job with a major public university and I’m curious to know about what type of salary I may be offered. The job has a classification with a stated salary range of between 70k – 110k which is quite a large range.

    I have about five years experience in my field, so does anyone have a clue as to whether I should seek something towards the lower range, middle range or upper range?

    My current salary is just above the bottom of the range.

    1. Dang*

      Every position I’ve gotten at a University has started me at the bottom of the range (and with each promotion, the bottom of that range). It might also depend on what others in your position are making- my previous institution was big on ‘departmental equity.’ I’m not sure if that’s true more broadly. The jobs I’m applying for now usually have a 30k or so range too, and the online application asks for my requirements (which are mid-range) and I’ve still gotten interviews, so I’m not convinced that all universities are as cheap as my prior institution. Plus since you’re already above the bottom of the range you should have some negotiating power! Good luck!

    2. fposte*

      Major public university? Salaries are probably public record–can you research who’s got what and extrapolate? (Allowing for the fact that those reports can be buggy.)

    3. College Career Counselor*

      In my previous experience (large private university), there was a huge range across the salary band. This was in part, I presume, to be able to continue to reward people who had some longevity in the position (so they wouldn’t hit the top of the pay range in 2 years).

      Practices vary, of course, but at that institution, the effective range for a new hire was actually the first third of the salary band. If the salary band was 70-110k, the first third would be 70-83k or thereabouts.

      Do you know anyone who works at that university who might be able to guide you? Do you have a sense of what the typical salary is for people in that function? Also, if it’s a public university, you can look up the salary for the position. Google [public university name] and salary.

      1. Kevin*

        Thank you.

        I should have mentioned that since it was a public university, I see that this is the salary band for this position.

        1. fposte*

          Right, but you can drill down farther to individual salaries within that to see what other people in the position are getting and how their experience compares to yours (after you look up their CVs).

    4. Recently Resigned*

      I’ll second the information about searching for public records. I work for a public university and I know my salary is out there. In my area if you go to the local newspaper and search for the university payroll database it will come up. Sometimes you can find them if you go to the state government websites.

      We also have the similar policies as the “College Career Counselor.” Typically offers are in the bottom quartile, sometimes in the second quartile. In order to go above the median we need to get the Chancellor of the university to sign off. Heck, we’d probably need to get the President of the university system and the Governor to sign off if we wanted to hit the top quartile.

      You say you have 5 years of experience. If that is what is required for the job, I’d probably expect something in that first quartile. If the job requires just 1 or 2 years of experience, then you might be able to get at the bottom of the 2nd quartile. At least that’s how it would work for us. Universities usually have fairly decent benefits so don’t forget to factor that in as well.

  88. Malissa*

    Okay going to post a small rant.
    My office is bilingual. I am not fluent in Spanish. But I do understand enough that I do know when you are talking about me. FFS, it’s just rude to say in Spanish what you wouldn’t say in front of me in English.
    Before I leave I just might let them know that just because I’m not fluent doesn’t mean I don’t understand.

    1. Celeste*

      Hopefully you can say it in Spanish, even if you have to get some coaching!

      But yeah, it’s rude to do what they’re doing.

    2. Canadamber*

      Yeah, that’s awful… :( I’m sorry that you have to deal with all of that! >_<;

    3. Sydney*

      I’ve encountered this before several times (I’m white in south Texas, so a lot of people assume I don’t know any Spanish, which is starting to not make sense anymore, but that’s a different argument). My response is to make eye contact with a WTF look on your face, as if they said the whole thing in English. Then they’ll know you know. Hopefully, they’ll stop being jerks in front of you (because they will probably keep being jerks behind your back). If not, learn more Spanish and start talking to them regularly.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      YES. Was waiting for this!

      Best: I have a new job! *does a new job dance* Completely unexpected (over 70 applicants, didn’t think I’d done amazingly at the interview, don’t know enough about excel) but very happy to be given a new opportunity.

      Worst: Being stuck on my assignment – it’s just not going in.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      OK, don’t laugh, but the best part of my week – I grew a freakin’ radish!

      I’m new to gardening and after 3 years on a wait list for a community garden plot I got one this year. So far I feel like I’m failing mightily, but my radishes are growing. One was even ready to eat! I felt so proud! :D

      Worst part – doing so many squats and lunges one night that I could barely walk for the next 3 days.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Why do you think you are failing? The growing season has barely started. Up here it hasn’t really started at all- haha.

        Your radishes are growing so will other stuff. What else did you plant?

    3. CanadianWriter*

      Best: Making mad stacks of cash from writing stuff

      Worst: My summer job maybe doesn’t want me any more, which makes me sad.

      1. De Minimis*

        Best….we got a little rain.

        Worst…garage door opener completely broke down last night and I have to get a new one put in tomorrow. Also had to pay for an afterhours call last night just to get it closed and to take apart the broken pieces.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        You’ve mentioned this mad stacks of cash gig before. What IS it? I’m so curious!

        1. CanadianWriter*

          Writing boring articles about hotels, weddings, event planning, stuff like that. Being more specific would blow my cover. :(

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Best: NOLA Jazz Fest with my parents, sister and brother-in-law, and husband over the weekend. Preservation Hall Brass Band – LOVE!

      Worst: I’m transitioning between two jobs within my organization, and it’s tough to balance them both. I feel like I’m not doing a great job at either, which is crappy. But that’s just a little bit of angst – this has mostly been a great week!

    5. Persephone Mulberry*

      Last week I had a worst and no best. This week, YAY, I have a couple bests and no worst. :D

      Best 1: Good news about our house hunt (see unexpectedly long post, above)

      Best 2: We’ve got tickets to see Gabriel Iglesias tonight. Can’t wait!

    6. Mints*

      Best: Mr. Mints got a new job! I’m so excited for him! It’s all the best parts of his old job (hands on work, direct interaction with the public) and none of the bad (understaffing, hierarchy issues, upper management). The starting pay is about the same, but has huge future potential.
      He doesn’t read AAM, but I think I helped through osmosis, haha

      Worst: Same old same old. No job nibbles for me

    7. Sascha*

      Best: Well, that bacon cheeseburger I just ate was really kickin’. That might be the highlight of the week.

      Worst: The database I need to query keeps crashing. :(

    8. Anonicorn*

      WORST: Being sick with a fever while taking a final (on top of missing work for two days).

      BEST: Finished with classes for nearly 3 months. Hello free time!

      1. De Minimis*

        Pre-emptive worst for next week–it’s our temp admin’s last week. She’s got a fellowship for an Ivy League school and has a job waiting for her with the State Dept. after she graduates. Excited for her, but sad for us, she is an exceptional individual who did way more for us than just cover the front desk.

        1. Anonicorn*

          Oh wow, how great for her! Best of luck finding a replacement. I’m sure there are still some exceptional ones.

    9. Mimmy*

      Best: Last weekend I went to an “Abilities Expo”, which is basically a convention of disability service providers and vendors (unfortunately, mostly targeted to those with mobility impairments–my disabilities are sensory). Anyway…they had two people from the show “Push Girls”, which ran for 2 seasons on the Sundance Channel. I actually met and got my picture taken with one of them!

      Worst: Just got back from submitting an application to renew my passport (well…start over…old passport was well-expired). The family ahead of us took for. e. ver because they likely came completely unprepared (no supporting documents, pictures, etc).

    10. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Best: I’ve decided that I’m not going to schedule any client work for Fridays, and this is my second week of it. It’s awesome! I suddenly have more breathing room in my schedule, and all I had to do was resolve to put it in there and protect it (rather than giving into schedule pressures and scheduling over it, which is what I’ve traditionally done).

      Worst: I didn’t order enough bread from Zingerman’s mail-order. (Okay, it’s a pretty good week.)

      1. NatalieR*

        I never thought I’d be willing to pay $16 for a loaf of bread, but their Parmesan -black pepper loaf is worth it.

      2. Ruffingit*

        Keeping a work-free day during the week is one of the best things ever if you can swing it. I highly recommend that. I’m not able to do it now, but I was doing it for awhile when I could and I loved it. I was able to get other things done that I wanted to do or just sleep in a bit or spend time at the park with my dog and so on. It was really nice and helped me to do better work on the rest of the days.

    11. C Average*

      BEST: Finished key phase of Big Bad Project I’ve been procrastinating about for lo these many weeks. My manager, who had stopped talking to me, has started talking to me again, and the vibe seems good.

      WORST: Spring allergies are not yet killing me, but they’re so bad they kind of make me wish they would.

    12. Jamie*

      I snuck in here to look for this best and worst post: Yay!

      Best: On way to conference pulled into parking lot and had to write a new sql report from scratch because of boring reasons – but customer in from out of state in conference room needs info NOW and old report not working because of co-worker mistake.

      Logged in via ipad, wrote new report, emailed it and the meeting started on time with a happy customer.

      Felt kind of awesome – like a superhero who runs around randomly pulling data with sql statements and crystal syntax.

      Worst: See above – there is a reason people don’t do that via logmein on an ipad in a parking lot. That sucked! Hard.

      Oh, and being called to someone’s desk to “fix their computer” which meant plugging in their f*cking mouse. I officially hate them now.

      Another worst: they ordered Chinese which I used to love until they changed places which uses a food I have an aversion to so I can’t even go in to grab an egg roll because I’m ridiculous.

      Another worst: my middle finger right next to my nail hurts for no reason. It looks fine, no injury, but my cuticle is hard and it’s all I can think about.

      Another worst: I worked until 9:50 last night, left the office and STILL had a traffic jam on the way home. Stupid Chicago, stupid construction on the stupid expressway.

      At least it’s Friday!

      1. cuppa*

        I also had a superhero database best this week! I had lightning bolt inspiration in a meeting and came up with a work around for an issue that had been plaguing us for two months :)

        Worst: My husband cancelled our date for tonight :(. I was looking forward to it!

        1. Jamie*

          One of these days I’m going to research this and see if there is a reason for those lightening bolt moments.

          I know why I will find a solution after learning something new, but sometimes I’ll just suddenly know how to solve something with the knowledge I already had, but this solution didn’t occur to me. Every time that happens, and not just at work, it bothers the heck out of me. It’s my knowledge and my brain, it doesn’t get to decide when to dole it out to me in it’s own good time.

          Well, clearly it does, but that’s not fair.

          1. cuppa*

            No kidding! Even though I’m not sorry that I looked like a total rockstar, we could have been doing a lot in the last two months if we had figured this out sooner.

    13. Malissa*

      Worst: Finding out that my certification is getting delayed again. Patience is a virtue…at least that’s what I keep telling myself.

      Best: An employer only 4 miles from my house is willing to interview me on a Saturday! And I am the first one to interview out of over 100 applications they received. (I don’t think they’ll interview them all)

    14. Stephanie*

      Best: Finished up the class I’m taking. Final exam wasn’t too terrible.

      Worst: I’m doing a workout bootcamp. Tuesday’s workout was particularly brutal–it was 30 minutes of burpees and pushups. It was horrible. I felt bad for this one woman–she was trying the class out and her first day was burpee/pushup day. Unsure if she’ll come back.

      1. C Average*

        I’m pretty fit and generally like working out, but I haaaaaaaaaate burpees and just full-stop won’t do them. I figure working out is mostly about getting and keeping the body you want to have that’s capable of doing the things you want to do. There are no things that I want to do that burpee fitness will prepare me to do.

        1. Ruffingit*

          I feel the same. If there’s something I really hate to do with working out, I just don’t do it. If you don’t basically enjoy something (even if it’s hard), it’s just a built in excuse not to workout. Find something you like and do that, you’re more likely to keep up with it.

    15. Elizabeth West*

      Best: Someone I did a school project for liked it. :3

      Worst: I’m sure there is something, but I can’t think of it right now so that’s a good thing, right?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Oh yeah, I thought of another Best thing: I had had distance contacts, but I couldn’t even see the computer screen without using readers. Seriously, I’d go to the store and have to pull them out to read a cereal box. :P I did not want to mess with that on vacation, so I went to the eye doctor. He gave me bifocal contacts, and now I can see everything! Yeaaaaaaah!!

    16. Felicia*

      Best: I went to the drop in choir I go to every week, and had so much fun! I love singing as a group and we sounded amazing.

      Worst: I got rejected for a job I had really wanted.

    17. Ruffingit*

      Worst: Family crisis of sorts that I had to deal with and will be ongoing in the next few months.

      Best: Made extra money this week as I was able to put in some hours I didn’t think I’d be able to put in. Nice to see the extra cash in my paycheck today! :)

  90. Shell*

    Worst: data drive on my computer died, leading to a week of system restore, command prompts, checkdisk, and miscellaneous testing until I figured out the hard drive was having issues.

    Best: …my boss approved my purchase of a keyboard tray! Now to get around to actually buying it.

    1. Jamie*

      I think you’re the first person I’ve ever known who likes the keyboard tray. The first thing I do with a new desk is to get the screwdriver and take it off.

      But yay! I totally get how awesome it is when you can improve the work space.

        1. fposte*

          I used an open drawer as a keyboard tray for a long time just for that very reason.

      2. Shell*

        I am short (5’3″) and have very particular joints. It started becoming an issue with an RSI a couple of years ago…now if I don’t have everything in the Most Ergonomic Position Ever (and desks rarely do for people of my height), my joints hurt. And I’m only in my 20s.

        My parents/relatives/friends like to make fun of me and tell me to imagine how I’ll fall apart in a few decades. (To be fair, I injure myself in loads of hilarious, ridiculous ways: with a doorknob, with a seatbelt, with facewash, even with duran…)

        Psst: would love your opinion on my computer query a little upthread! If you’re busy, no biggie, but I got in pretty late it is a little buried in the responses.

        1. fposte*

          As a Professional Sitter with some decades on you and some long-term orthopedic issues, I will tell you that more important than a perfectly fitted chair is that advice most of us ignore–get up frequently. And change your position–the best seat is one that allows you to do that, but very few of us have that.

          1. Shell*

            I’ve only been a Sitter for the last year and a half or so–before that it was all school and on-my-feet jobs. The RSI was unrelated to my sitting job, but boy did my physio grill me on my posture when I was visiting him. XD

            I’m just an admin so I can get up (to go to the bank, to the copy room, ask the bosses something, etc.)… I’ve always wondered how the more specialized people higher up on the chain get out of their desks. They probably don’t have to do bank runs as part of their jobs, and you can only take so many water/bathroom breaks a day before someone side-eyes you…

            1. samaD*

              drink strong tea :)
              1. get up to put the kettle on
              2. when it boils, get up to make tea in a cup (in the cup is important: you can use a pot, but that cuts out one of the ‘get ups’)
              3. when the tea has brewed get up to add milk/sugar/lemon/honey/whatever your heart desires
              4. bathroom break, because tea
              5. repeat

              1-3 is less than a minute each time, but just being able to stand up and walk a few steps makes such a difference :)

            2. Colette*

              I have a wireless headset and I walk around while I’m on conference calls. There’s a conference room behind my desk that I like to wander around.

        2. chewbecca*

          I feel you on the hurting yourself in strange ways. I thought I was going to have a black eye once because a bottle of Tums decided to jump off of a shelf and hit me in the face.

          1. Jamie*

            I gave myself a bloody nose once by hitting myself in the face with the remote. I was attempting to toss it to my husband across the room and for some reason my hand went the wrong way.

            1. cuppa*

              Last week, I gave myself a bloody nose when I was washing my face in the shower. Sometimes I seriously wonder how I function in society.

          2. Shell*

            We should totally have a “share your most stupid injury” thread on AAM.

            My champion would probably be scraping the crap out of my eye while washing my face. (Bonus: I didn’t explain it to my then-bosses well, and I totally scared the living daylights out of them thinking it was a work injury…)

            1. Jamie*

              I was washing my face in the shower once, and I don’t like the shower on my face so I fill my cupped hands with water and splash…

              Anyway, just when dipping my face into my hands full of water I inhaled for no known reason whatsoever. I will never forget the taste of L’Oreal youth code gel cleanser or the sting of having it irrigate your sinuses for as long as I live.

              It’s nice to know I’m not the only one clumsy enough to self injure with face wash.

              1. Shell*

                For me I was using the exfoliating scrubby face washes and one grain fell into my eye. No biggie, usually they blink/rinse right out.

                Not this time…even after 30 minutes under the tap (I checked!).

                I called into work in a panic (because that thing was going SCRAAAAAAAAAPE on my cornea every time I blinked/moved my eye) and said I have eye issue, emergency visit to optometrist, etc. But I forgot to tell them in my pain/panic that it wasn’t work related. And I left my cell phone in my car.

                Supervisor called me in a panic less than an hour later and left me voicemail (by which point I was in the doctor’s office). He had good reason to freak out since we were a chemicals research lab, so he was worried that I’d gotten chemicals in my eye somehow and was talking about MSDSs that my doctor might need and whatnot.

                I didn’t get the voicemail until I got to work a few hours later. Best part? I was a student worker, and it was my first (second?) week at my co-op term at this workplace.

                Talk about a walk of shame…

                1. fposte*

                  I was preparing dried hot pepper seeds (an unusual strain my brother raised) to send to a friend; they were very hot, so I carefully wore rubber gloves.

                  I bounced one into my eye. Oops.

            2. C Average*

              I ran a drill through my hand in high school metal shop.

              The shop teacher, who wasn’t that keen on having women in his classes in the first place, tended to be really dismissive and condescending when women asked questions or complained. One day, when the drill I was using simply wouldn’t penetrate the sheet of metal I was trying to drill, I approached him to ask for help and he blew me off, claiming I just needed to press harder.

              So I did. What I didn’t realize was that the drill was set to the “reverse” setting, so it was NEVER going to penetrate the sheet of metal. I pressed and pressed until the drill bit snapped, and then the broken end skidded across the metal sheet and into my hand.

              The actual injury was pretty underwhelming, all things considered. The hole wasn’t large, there wasn’t much blood, and I only needed a few stitches. Metal shop was my last class before lunch, and I was back from the doctor’s office before my first class after lunch.

          3. Stephanie*

            I did color guard in high school (the activity where you spin flags and fake weapons). The bottom of the flag poles have stoppers with electrical tape. After a while, the tape gets scuffed up. I was holding a flag with a scuffed-up stopper and turned around suddenly. Flag fell out my hand, stopper grazed my eye and scratched my cornea.

            I got to wear an eye patch for two weeks from that. And not a cool-looking eye patch–it was basically tape and some gauze. I don’t wear contacts, so I had to put my glasses over that. It was incredibly dorky-looking.

            1. cuppa*

              Another color guard person! I hit someone in the head with my flag during a parade once. Apparently the washers crashing on her head could be heard in the flute and clarinet sections.
              To be fair, she was unhurt and totally in my way. And had been warned.
              I forgot all about it until my high school reunion, when someone asked me if I was the girl who hit someone with her flag. D’oh.

              1. Stephanie*

                I hit a few people in my day as well.

                I almost wanted a helmet when I learned pitch tosses. Rifle tosses as well. I would be a disaster for a bit when I learned a technique and then suddenly it’d click. But before the clicking, there was a lot of drops (sometimes on my head).

                Man, I had the most toned arms and shoulders when I did guard.

          4. Elizabeth West*

            I gave myself a black eye as a kid walking into the edge of my bedroom door. It’s really a wonder I didn’t break my glasses.

            I wear contacts now, so the black eye would be worse. I still walk into doors!

          5. Colette*

            I once was crossing a tiny waterfall when I slipped, banged my elbow on the rock, and bent my thumb back. It really hurt, so I stopped, grabbed on to a tree branch, and leaned over to put my arm in the cool lake water.

            The branch broke.

        3. EAA*

          Daughter is taller (5’8″) but has knee issues. Desks at work are set up badly but the last change in layout she got a desk that’s higher so she can stretch out better. Now if they would get her a headset. She spends a lot of time on the phone and need to be able to write at the same time.

      3. Mimmy*

        Interesting…I wonder why people don’t like them? I guess it depends on the desk.

        1. Carrie in Scotland*

          One time I step back too far and my foot went up the back of the bath (the sloping bit) and then went quickly down – I ended up with a sprain.

  91. Anonicorn*

    Has anyone felt a compulsive need to organize your workplace’s supply closet? Because I do. I would feel inordinately satisfied if I could do that. It’s a disaster.

    1. EAA*

      Yes – I have felt this way. The one time I did was actually for a youth soccer organization and I cleaned, arranged and inventoried the supply shed. Also I actually laid out my husband’s old office when they were given more space and had workers moved in from another floor. I also fix clothing racks at stores.

      1. Anonicorn*

        I was looking at it last week when I felt the “itch” and started thinking about how the empty printer paper boxes could be used to organize all the supplies. Aaaah.

    3. fposte*

      It’s possible your workplace would be very grateful–I know I love it when my staff does that. Can you find out?

      1. Anonicorn*

        After I finish all the pressing work, I am absolutely going to ask my manager if she would mind. I feel like she won’t have a problem with it.

        1. OriginalYup*

          I predict that she’ll beam sparkly hearts and double rainbows at you for volunteering to do this. If she doesn’t, I will.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      No, can’t say this has ever happened to me. But I’d love to invite you all to my house to organize my stuff :)

  92. E*

    Kind of a general site question: does anyone have good tips on searching the archives? With so many posts, odds are that any given question has already been asked in some form, but I don’t really know how to find it.

    Just as an example, I’m having an issue with our president stepping in (without my knowledge, and way outside the scope of his usual responsibilities) and directly emailing a vendor I’ve been working with myself for years.

    The thing is, what I would consider “key words” in that kind of question are so general that any combo turns up way too many results. President + emails + vendor turns up 1860, for example, and none of the first few that I skimmed through seemed to apply to my situation. (Using quotation marks to try to narrow it down seems to be TOO narrow…. None of the phrases I’ve tried to match exactly have returned any results.)

    And then there’s the problem of interchangeable words. Maybe there’s a similar post out there that uses “boss” or “manager” or “CEO or “director.” Maybe it’s a client instead of a vendor. Maybe the boss made a call instead of emailing. But any semi-similar advice, on how to deal with a superior inserting himself into a business relationship that’s way outside (and frankly, below) his usual role, may apply just as well to my situation.

    I’ve seen people in comments mentioning old posts and seeming to dig them up pretty easily – are you finding them in some particular way? Am I dumb? Ha.

    2. fposte*

      I cheat–usually it’s not a cold search but an attempt to retrieve something I remember, so I have vague memory of certain posters’ comments or weird details and can use those to narrow the search. Searching based just on theme words is really tough in these archives.

      1. JBeane*

        A few times I’ve been able to find specific posts pretty quickly by googling “Askamanager” along with a key phrase or two. Have you tried that, instead of just searching within the archive?

        1. fposte*

          I think Alison’s search box is just a site-specific Google search, isn’t it? If so, that’s the same as site:askamanager.org searchterm on Google.

  93. Programmer 01*

    TW: Suicidal Ideation

    I am having such a hard time balancing mental illness and work. I was at my job for a year, started having anxiety attacks and severe thoughts of suicide. I’d been on and off antidepressants for years but with a lot of help and therapy (and missing a lot of work) I was able to find a mix that worked for me, and was able to go back to my job, and their support was wonderful.

    Three months later I was hit by a car which broke bones in my back, ribs, and leg.

    A very long year of hospitals and doctors and physiotherapy and learning to walk again, my job was able to bring me back on board (I was doing all this without income or health care so my savings are gone and I am in heavy debt), at a raise no less. I have no words for how amazing and wonderful they are.

    Three months in and after not taking my anxiety meds for over a year, I have started having to take them again. I am still on my antidepressants. My doc has started a third “add-on” but it seems to be ratcheting up my anxiety, so we’ll have to likely try something else. My antidepressants, even under our health care plan, are 10% of my monthly pay.

    I don’t know what to do. I feel like I’ve been moving mountains, physically and mentally and emotionally. I love my job like you wouldn’t believe — it’s a perfect culture fit, it’s an industry I have been a part of for 13 years now, it is an iconic project that will be an incredible badge of honor… if I can finish it. If I can keep working. The more work I miss the worse my brain chases itself despite reassurances from my manager/etc that they’re there for me. I just don’t know if I can do this again.

    How do I juggle this with work? I used to hide at work when I was stressed, now I can’t be around people, can’t stand bright lights, can’t listen to music, can’t even read on the computer for extended periods. I’m writing code in notebooks trying to keep up at home.

    1. Programmer 01*

      And sorry for the FEELINGSdump, I know I should be pursuing more counselling but I can’t afford it. My med plan gives me $300 a year for it. That’s… that’s two sessions.

      1. Traveler*

        I don’t feel like I can give you advice, because I feel like these situations are so specific and personal. I do want to say though that there are counseling centers that offer discounts and cheaper access if you cannot afford it. If they can’t help you, they can usually point you to other resources to meet your needs. I know its still not cheap, but if its your last course of defense it’s really important you seek it out.

      2. fposte*

        Oh, Programmer, I’m so sorry for such a frustrating setback. Physical limitations will send any brain in a tizzy, and how frustrating that they screwed up a hard-won balance for you.

        I’m not sure where you are, and I’m afraid that this link won’t be relevant to you but I’ll post it anyway:
        http://captainawkward.com/2011/09/22/how-to-locate-low-cost-mental-health-care-in-the-us-and-canada-guest-post/

        Be willing to take them at their word about their willingness to wait for you, and remember you found a way out before so you know it’s possible.

        1. Programmer 01*

          I meant to reply to this earlier — thank you, thank you! I am in fact in the Great White North (that phrase sure has a different meaning these days…) so these resources are excellent. For all our health care is amazing if you break your leg (or are hit by a car), when it comes to stuff like mental health we can still be really lagging behind, and any medications not issued in-hospital are expensive depending on your insurance. My insurance company also appears to be the only one in the entire country that doesn’t cover antidepressants as a “Yo, people need this to live, so we cover it” basic! The pharmacists grump every time, they’re so angry on my behalf.

          I appreciate your words so much. They’ve been telling me for over 2 years now that they’ll wait, and I believe them intellectually, but my lizard brain keeps shrieking every time I say I’m not coming in.

          Also, Captain Awkward is such a great site, but I figured asking here was better than emailing and maybe getting a response in a few months. ;)

      3. Malissa*

        First contact your county mental health district. There may be programs there to help you.
        Second, you need to clue in your manager. Sometimes just sharing takes away a lot of the stress. Also they may have things they can offer you in terms of flexibility so you can get your job done.

        1. Programmer 01*

          Thanks folks.

          My manager does know — it was really hard broaching it with her and HR, but the outpouring of support was amazing. They keep telling me to take care of me, and do what I need to do, but it’s such a fast-paced industry that just missing a week (which I just have done) can set teams back months. I sadly cannot work from home because of the security levels involved.

    2. Anoners*

      That sucks that you’re dealing with all this. It seems like you are tackling all these issues head on and I think that’s the most important part. It’s not your fault, at all, so just keep on plugging along and hopefully things will start working out for you.

    3. C Average*

      This sounds terribly hard.

      It’s admirable that you’ve done all you have after such a serious accident. You clearly bring a lot that’s valuable to your work–it’s clear by the way they’ve supported you that your colleagues value you and your work.

      I really hope you can get some help. This is a rough patch, but it’s not the rest of your life.

    4. Celeste*

      I’m so incredibly sorry for what you’ve been through. FWIW, everyone I know who has been through a relapse says they were told that people DO feel much worse because they know now, how hard it can be to climb back out. The dread is paralyzing sometimes.

      I hope one of the resources suggested can get you therapy at a better cost. I love that your employer is so awesome about your struggle, and I’m glad you trusted people here enough to come and talk about it. You’ve got a lot going for you if you can just hang on a while longer to get the meds straightened out.

    5. Celeste*

      Would it be possible to ask for an accommodation to work at home for a period of time, just while you work on getting the medication balance corrected?

      1. Programmer 01*

        You’ve really touched it with a needle — I know what it’s like, and I am terrified of sliding back there. I’ve been through so many medications the first few times around that there aren’t many left to try. I’m still trying, it’s like throwing darts at an invisible dart board… and you’re not really sure which wall it’s on. But we’ll hit it eventually. There really isn’t an alternative (and I have to keep saying that to myself).

        They’re fine with me taking half-days, full days off, no notice, anything that works for me, but due to the security involved I cannot work from home — we have to be on the secure trunk and my home network just can’t meet the needs.

        And thank you. It’s surprisingly hard to open up to strangers but I’m feeling a little desperate, and I’ve lurked here for a long time and it’s one of the few places I’ve ever found where the comments are as worth reading as the articles are. Wonderful group of people.

        1. Celeste*

          I’m wishing you all the best. Also, virtual hugs from an internet stranger. (((((hugs)))))

    6. CTO*

      I’m sorry. It will get better.

      One suggestion that might ease the financial stress just a bit: see if your drug manufacturer has any kind of special assistance for people who can’t otherwise afford their drugs. Many companies do, and perhaps you’d qualify to help cut your copay down.

      I know that doesn’t resolve the larger challenges, but I also know that even taking one more worry off of your mind can make a difference.

      1. Programmer 01*

        I had never thought of that! I slept off some meds and have energy, time to start emailing. You’d think that some of these, being off patent, would have generics made by now, but NOPE. Thank you!

    7. Jamie*

      I wish I had practical advice, but I don’t…I am just so sorry you’re going through this. You are an incredibly strong person to have gone through what you have and you just have to remember that intellectually, especially in the times you don’t feel it emotionally.

      1. Programmer 01*

        I had a real scary turn today (day three of new meds — looks like these are nope), but after xanax and a nap and seeing such awesome comments from people I am in a much better headspace and booked an emergency doc appointment for tomorrow morning, and a follow-up on monday.

        The last few years have honestly made me completely re-evaluate my life and priorities, and I’m going to come through okay. Still, if you ever have the chance… pass!

  94. Jamie*

    When your keyboard is so sticky and gross that a key is permanatly stuck down how about you figure that out before you send IT a message that says, and I quote:

    “coputer broken.”

    Thanks – I don’t need any additional details – got it.

    I check it out and trot back to my office to get a new keyboard and give it to them to replace. In the course of doing so they inadvertently dislodged the usb for the mouse. Next message:

    “you didn’t fix it!!!! still broken!!!!”

    I go back to see what’s up and have to plug. their. mouse. in. for. them.

    Some people need to be grounded from all technology and given nothing but chisels and clay tablets. I’m sure they can find a way to mess that up, but at least it won’t be my problem.

      1. Jamie*

        Yeah – but one needs to wonder how smart it is to piss off the one person in the organization capable of planting horrible things on your computer triggering an internal investigation.

        Or, you know, changing your desktop wallpaper to a the employee ID photo of the person in charge of HR photo shopped with little hearts. So you can explain to her why you have her picture on your computer.

        Just kidding – I’m very ethical blah blah blah :)

    4. Mints*

      This is too funny. I feel bad, but I’m trying not to actually laugh.

      I keep having the opposite problem, where if I email IT, I’ve at least tried rebooting it, checking the cords, and googling the error message (and say so in the email). But I’ll get responses “did you try rebooting it?” …yes, that’s the first line in the email.

      It’s a small company, I’m annoyed they can’t keep track of who’s an okay user, especially when I just told them what I tried

      Ugh, I’ll just move to Chicago and work for you

      1. Colette*

        I once called IT and said “I think i have a virus”. The tech assured me I did not.

        Two weeks and three IT guys later, I found out I had a virus.

    6. kas*

      I hate people like that, quick to ask someone to fix their problem without even bothering to try and see what’s wrong.

      I bother someone only after I’ve tried everything and sit there longer than needed to make sure I absolutely have to contact IT or a manager.

    7. FD*

      Oh god, that’s horrible.

      In OldJob, I got so frustrated with trying to explain the concept of sponsored links (when people search a hotel, it’s common for a third party website–Expedia, etc. to show up as an ad at the top) and people would. not. believe that it wasn’t our website.

  95. drives me nuts*

    Just a thought for a Friday: Here’s three phrases that all managers and supervisors need to strike completely from their repetoire: “Can you come in here a minute?”, “Let’s talk about something”, and “Can I talk to you for a minute?”. Nothing strikes more fear into the heart of an employee than those ambiguous phrases. It’s hard not to jump to panic-mode about your job performance when your boss says one of them.

    2. Colette*

      Interesting. None of those bother me at all. I take them to mean that my manager needs to talk to me about something.

      Do you and your manager normally talk about things other than your performance?

    3. Celeste*

      When I was new I feared the worst, but now it just means (to me) that they would rather have a quiet discussion in their office rather than in my cube.

      1. De Minimis*

        It took me a long time to get over that fear response, having been let go from a previous job after hearing those words [to be fair, I did see it coming.]

        We have fairly structured performance evaluations here, so generally when I’m asked if I can talk for a minute I usually know it’s probably about some report that we have to submit to someone else.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      Depends on the boss, I think. If my immediate supervisor says it, it’s almost always a criticism; if HER boss contacts me, it’s usually interesting and rarely bad.

      1. blink & you'll miss it*

        for me, those 3 phrases are usually accompanied by what I call “the walk of doom”

    5. Katie the Fed*

      I learned this one when an employee came over literally shaking and I was like “are you ok? you seem nervous.” and he told me he felt like I was about to fire him.

      So now I go with: “Can you please stop by, I need to talk to you about XXX and go over XXX.”

      If they’re in trouble it’s “I’ve reserved ___ office for 2pm and I want to discuss how we can better prioritize your workload” or something like that.

    6. Sydney*

      If history shows a pattern of only scary things happening after those phrases, then yeah I could see that.

      But! I use variations of “Can you come in here a minute?” all the time for little things and DO NOT use them for the actual scary things, so my employees should be conditioned the other way.

    7. Donnatella Moss*

      I did that to my manager recently – and she thought I was going to give notice and went into a panic. Oops. :)

  96. Sharm*

    This is off the usual job topic, but I’m wondering if folks have advice on sprucing up your house.

    My living room is making me unhappy and I want to fix it up. I have a vomit-beige colored carpet and white walls, neither of which can be changed. The landlord also won’t allow items to be hung on the walls (though we do have some stuff up, and I think if it’s small/light, I can do it). I have an ugly brown couch that I can’t afford to replace. None of the furniture matches (ex. a black matte “modern” bookshelf next to an old-style brown wood coffee table next to a rickety desk that’s been carved into all over the place.) Also, there’s a giant hole in the wall.

    Fun!

    People always send me to sites like Apartment Therapy, and it makes me so annoyed because, a.) I don’t have that kind of money, b.) the rooms they feature are so unrealistic (sorry, I don’t have a two-story loft with hardwood floors and fancy artwork — if I did, I wouldn’t be asking this question in the first place!), and c.) requires a lot more skill than they claim.

    So. Are there any home improvement websites for the talent-impaired? Pinterest is not my thing for the same reasons mentioned above; instead of inspiring me, it depresses me and makes me feel inadequate. I need the perspective of someone who wants to make change, but doesn’t necessarily have a bunch of tools or money to do it. Direct experiences from you guys would be great too.

    A big request I know, but I figured I’d try!

    2. fposte*

      I love house stuff, but I don’t know of any suitable blogs–however, can you identify exactly what can be changed? I feel like you may have ruled everything out but fabric hangings on the walls (which can be very nice), but I wasn’t sure if I missed something in there.

      1. Sharm*

        Of course, whoops!

        I think some furnishings could be changed — desk, bookshelf. I can’t change the couch, but if there were slipcover ideas? They are kinda pricey and don’t work with the size of my couch, but something along those lines. Throw pillows?

        Basically, I’m trying to think of some wall furnishings and small items (potted plants, knick knacks), along with figuring out how to add color to the room. I think some bold color might help.

        Part of the problem is my slob of a boyfriend who can’t leave anything in its place, but that’s a thread for another day. :-)

        1. fposte*

          Ah, there’s some wiggle room there. I’m serious about the fabric hangings–you can get wooden stretches made for that pretty inexpensively at most big chain stores or craft stores, and it doesn’t take talent to do (I know, because I did it, and I have no talent). I went for a few big poster-sized hangings of a Marimekko print I really liked, but you could just trawl through a local fabric store to see what you can find.

          If you’re anywhere near an Ikea, Ikea has some nice fabrics for this too, and you might enjoy ikeahackers.net–some of it is way over my head, but I can emulate the people who repurpose a shoe tree.

            1. fposte*

              This was this gorgeous pattern that I saw on the Finnish site and had to special order, and it seems to have been only sold the one season–I wish I’d ordered twice as much!

              1. AVP*

                Speaking of which, they have some tablecloths on sale on their website right now that you could probably do something with! I know they’re known for color but I really like their b&w prints.

            2. Sharm*

              Marimekko is the bomb. I have a Marikmekko print dress H&M had a few years back and get so many compliments on it! That would be a fun print for the house too.

    3. Celeste*

      They need to fix the hole in the wall!

      It’s tough when you don’t have the money to replace things. Would you be open to covering the couch with a king size flat sheet from an outlet mall? Maybe some pretty pillows on it?

      Those Command strips are pretty good for hanging things, so long as you *ahem* follow the instructions for taking them down (like I did not the first time).

      Can you move the furniture around to get a different feel, or to get the oldest items to not be so close to the newest items?

      I’m sorry for the dreary digs. I’ve been where you are, and know how down it can get you. Can you start a savings, even $10 a month, for a new couch since that sounds like it bothers you most?

      1. Sharm*

        Thank you so much for the helpful suggestions! This is along the lines of what I was thinking. We did just change the furniture around, but I don’t think its at the optimal placement, so I’ll look at that again.

        A larger part of the backstory is I moved into my boyfriend’s existing apartment. He has a male roommate. For guys, they’re pretty clean, but they don’t care about this stuff. I do. Though I have freedom to fix it, I also don’t want to completely overrun their stuff.

        The other thing is, we all view this house as temporary. Boyfriend is not keen on replacing things like furniture, because we will eventually move back to the mainland (we live on an island right now). That makes financial sense, but man, does it get me down.

        I have been putting off doing anything with the place because I always thought we’d move out soon enough, but our overall location is the best on the island and there’s no way we’d get anything like it if we left. So, I want to make the best of the situation while we’re here, assuming it’s at least for another year or so. I think improving it with sheets and pillows, and some table furnishings is the way to go. But I’m not very creative, so it’s tough to figure out where to start! It’s so easy to blow a ton of money at places like Bed, Bath, and Beyond, so I want to avoid going down that route. (Though some of those boutiquey home furnishing shops make me DROOL with all their cute stuff. To be that rich someday… Alas!)

        1. fposte*

          Cheap blanket in acceptable color as throw, contrasting throw pillows, and some fabric hangings that coordinate?

        2. Celeste*

          Etsy has some pretty things at lower prices. Oooh, idea–pretty wall decals. No hardware, no residue! They cling.

          Pier 1 clearance rack though–is awesome. Bed Bath & Beyond Human Endurance is crazy money for what they have.

          Keep an eye on Craigslist if you have it there, because maybe somebody is getting rid of a piece of furniture that would be better than what you have now.

          I’m extremely jealous of your island life!

          1. Sharm*

            Wall decals are a great idea!

            Island life is great, absolutely, but there are drawbacks. One of them being — no Ikea near me! And my family being so far away from me of course. (I should have said family first, shouldn’t I?)

        3. Persephone Mulberry*

          Jen at epbot.com does a lot of fun crafty house decor stuff (mixed in with all her other geek-happy content), with an emphasis on affordable and DIY. There are tutorials under her Crafts tab, but also search for “HomeDecor” to get stuff that isn’t specifically a tutorial.

        4. Anonylicious*

          Do you have anything like TJ Maxx/HomeGoods or Tuesday Morning where you’re at? Discount/closeout stores like that, as well as Amazon, are where I get most of my home furnishings and decor.

          1. Anonicorn*

            I second Home Goods, Marshall’s, TJ Maxx, etc. I always check those stores first when I’m looking for a particular decorative item.

        5. Jamie*

          I don’t think its at the optimal placement, so I’ll look at that again.

          If I had money I’d pay someone to come into my house and just tell me where to put stuff. With the exception of the dining room I know all my furniture placement is wrong, but when I move it that looks wrong, too. I have zero eye for this kind of thing.

          And I am still on cloud 9 from a couple of weeks ago buying a new duvet cover and bedskirt. It is amazing what changing one little thing can do to brighten a room.

    4. Anonicorn*

      As far as your mismatched furniture goes, spray paint is a fairly inexpensive and talent-free fix. You might need to check if it needs sanding or anything like that first.

    5. Stephanie*

      Not sure about the blogs. Like you said, most suggestions tend not to work if you don’t have a living space straight out Architectural Digest.

      I’ll second fposte on fabric hangings. I also like putting up postcards on walls to break up white space. The mix of images and sizes creates an interesting collage.

      My friend has these picture wire hangers similar to this (without the bird clips): http://www.amazon.com/Birds-On-Wire-Picture-Hanger/dp/B00469Z0K6. That’s a cheap way to hang up photos and shouldn’t be too much stress on your wall.

    6. Stephanie*

      For the couch, throw pillows or a nice throw can spruce it up. Spray paint or new knobs (if needed) can also help with the furniture.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, new knobs are a great idea–if you want, you can even get inexpensive wooden ones and paint them to the color you want.

    7. CTO*

      Offbeat Home and Life has some good decorating posts that give ideas for rentals, small budgets, etc.

    8. Anonylicious*

      Can you get a slipcover for your couch? That’s what I did with my old couch, which was free, of uncertain origins and I had for almost five years. I got a slipcover from Big Lots and it both looked better and provided a barrier from any hypothetical strangers’ bodily fluids.

    9. AVP*

      Here’s a tip for hanging lightweight things on the wall in a way that won’t get your landlord too angry – magnets!

      Buy a bunch of plain round magnets (or fancy ones if you like), and a package of plain metal push-pins. Put the push-pins directly into your wall around the edges of where the print (or whatever) will go. Then, holding up the art, put the magnet on top of the push-pin, with the print in between. The magnets should stick to the push pins, holding up your art.

      Looks kind of crafty, costs $10 all in, and push-pin holes are tiny and easy to spackle.

        1. AVP*

          I stole that from a children’s store in Portland – they had a whole grid of art prints hung up that way. We made the salesperson show us how they were hung.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      You can get a fitted cover for the couch. I did that before when I had a couch I was sick of (it was plaid and I liked it, but it was too dark for the space so I got a white cover). It wasn’t too expensive. I’m sorry I cant’ remember where I bought it.

    11. Pip*

      Check out apartment ads online for pictures of either real lived-in normal people homes or attractively styled normal people homes.

      Can you paint the bookshelf, table and desk? White is the safe choice, but anything on the yellow to green scale (including lime and teal) would be a fun and gender-neutral complement to the brown sofa.

      Also, houseplants. They liven up everything. There are varieties that thrive in even the murkiest corners.

    12. Sharm*

      I want to respond to all of your comments, but I’ll respond to my original in hopes folks see it! Thank you all so much! I have lots of inspiration here. Looks like I have a busy few weekends ahead of me. :-)

      I think I have to remind myself to start slow and build. The couch bugs me the most, so I think I’ll start from there, and tackle the walls next.

    13. Schmitt*

      I hate not being naturally talented at house decorating! We bought our own place two years ago, and it looks OK, but when we visit other people I am very jealous…

  97. Celeste*

    But you asked for sites. Have you seen Small House Love? It’s a blog that might have some ideas.

    1. Sharm*

      I assume this is for me — thank you, I’ll check it out! Sites are good, but I actually trust your guys’ experiences and judgment even more. :-) Thanks again!

  98. LucyVP*

    Short Rant

    If the job posting asks for a cover letter and resume do not send your resume with an email that says:

    Attached is my resume for your review. If my experience match your needs and interest, I will follow up with a cover letter and references. Thank you for your time and consideration.

    This one just went into the ‘no’ pile.

    3. A Bug!*

      Does… does that person not really understand the purpose of a cover letter? It’s supposed to cover and provide context for the documents you’re sending.

      I think I need a stiff drink.

  99. Incognito Kitty*

    It’s me – just don’t want to be searchable.

    Okay – mini-vents and then I’ll play nice:

    1. I am so tired of watching people walk on eggshells to protect the incompetent and/or lazy (I really can’t tell) and expecting the competent path of least resistance to get stuff done.

    And no, I’m not the path – just a bystander.

    If it’s your job to order X and someone asks you to order it from a new place, saying you don’t know how to order from there because their online form is different and refusing to do so because the new form is too hard IS NOT OKAY! Neither is someone asking someone else to do it for her, because God forbid we expect anyone to I don’t know, do their job, especially when that other person has zero to do with this task.

    Stop punishing people for being helpful and having the ability to do the complex switching between websites.

    2. This person knows who they are, stop needing to use the bathroom seconds before I do. 4 times today I have to wait because you’re in there, and it’s been happening all week. I know you’re not sick, so I’m convinced you’ve got my bladder on a monitor so you know I have to go moments before I do and you’re just screwing with me. I thought we were friends.

    3. I tossed a coffee cup into my garbage can and didn’t realize until it was sailing through the air that it was still half full. I need to clean out my garbage can before the cleaning people get here in an hour and I don’t know to do that without looking like a giant dork.

    4. You know those people you kind of “know” as a kid, but don’t really know them? Your brother’s may have played baseball together, you know their name, they were ahead or behind you in school but you’ve never spoken or had any friends in common? So why would a person have a…uh..incredibly personal dream about one of those people a good 35 years after you forgot you knew of them? That’s not right.

    5. I’ve worked over 60 hours this week before I got here this morning, my brain already started the weekend because my focus – she’s shot.

    1. Celeste*

      I’ve done that with the coffee cup. Just get a bunch of paper towels from the bathroom, and bag up everything. Stuff happens.

    2. Malissa*

      Drinks at 8?

      #2–Not cool dude, just not cool.

      #3–Better than dumping your drink in the hallway where everyone can see.

      #4–Blame peri-menopause, it does strange things to the mind.

      #5–Maybe you should have fed your focus with the other half of the coffee…;)

      Hopefully the day will get better, or at least end soon.

    3. Anonicorn*

      #1 – YES! This! We’re going through the same thing at my workplace. At least the first sentence of #1. So much empathize.

    4. Pip*

      Person #1 has to be one of those dweebs who complain every time something changes in the Facebook UI. How these people manage to pay their taxes, keep themselves fed and clothed, and generally not get themselves killed baffles me.

      Person #2 is probably disturbed by how you follow him/her to the bathroom all the time.

  100. kas*

    Why do companies think it’s a good idea to have an office dog? I find it incredibly annoying as I am almost terrified of anything on four legs. For the most part I can be around dogs but I just don’t want them close to me or touching me. I’ve wanted to apply to several positions but once I browse their social media pages and see the office dog, I pass on it. I’ve worked in an office with a dog but ended up leaving .. I felt annoying as they always had to keep it away from me or leave it on another floor, sometimes by itself. I didn’t even know they had one when I started, what if I was allergic? Had an interview this week and scanned the room the whole time after seeing a dog bowl on the floor. It’s really limiting what I can apply to. I’ve tried to get over my fear but I get nervous just being around animals.

    2. Sharm*

      Ugh, I know. This feels like a startup thing too. “We’re so cool, we have office dogs and foosball tables!”

      We have a Bring Your Dog To Work Day and I will be asking my manager if I can work from home. She’s not a big animal person, so she might be more sympathetic. I really don’t like animals, and I’m aware this makes me a horrible person, so I rarely vocalize it, but I am so tired of the thinking that all people love animals and want to be around them. No. Especially when they have crappy owners who don’t discipline them.

      Grr.

      1. kas*

        Definitely what it is/feels like. Smaller companies/start-ups around here are always posting pictures of their office dog(s). One company specialized in what I would like to gain experience in but they had not one but TWO dogs, ugh. I don’t think dogs belong in the office, unless your job requires it/you actually work with them.

        The office I worked in also talked about having a doggy day and I was the only one without one. I spent the day thinking of excuses to get out of work but thankfully I left before they did it.

        1. Felicia*

          This company I wanted to work for had a bio for their office dog on their about page. The dog’s title was director of canine affairs. That plus the pool table, doing collages at meetings and mandatory structured group socializing, made me no longer want to work there.

          1. kas*

            Wow, I’ve seen dogs added into the employees section but never with a full bio, that’s crazy.

            1. Felicia*

              I don’t remember all the details (except the crazy title), and also that the dog was an expert in fetch and enjoys napping or something like that.

      2. fposte*

        Dog lover here, but I think “Bring Your Dog to Work Day” seems like more trouble than a regular office dog. A bunch of dogs, all in a new unknown area with a bunch of other dogs, all excited about the smells and trying to figure out the territory? I might skip that too.

  101. Dang*

    Well, I just got word that my temp job is over in 2 weeks.

    I want to crawl in a hole and stay there.

  102. Stephanie*

    This may get buried.

    I just got an invite to an online Women in Technology career fair at one of the Big 4 Firms. I interviewed for a role there about 8 months ago (but ended up not getting the job), so I’m guessing this is how they got my name. Has anyone done anything like this?

    1. Sharm*

      Weird.

      Do you have any professional contacts at any of these organizations that might have recommended you?

      1. Stephanie*

        I do. Friend of a friend referred me a while ago (when I found the previous position). It almost sounds like an interview of sorts–the email mentioned the opportunity to chat directly with a recruiter.

  103. Jamie*

    I freaking hate Access.

    Anyone want to come over and teach me archiving the backend of a split database? I have a backup and just need to cull records by a job number range, and I’m looking at clear and direct instructions yet my brain is not registering any of it.

    I’m very tired. (and yes, I made a backup and am working off a fresh copy because I am never too tired to cover my own ass.)

      1. Jamie*

        No matter what kind of day I’m having you always make me feel better – that totally helped! :)

  104. blink & you'll miss it*

    (semi-regular poster who wishes to remain anon)

    So I’m leaving my workplace shortly for something that is hopefully better and brighter. I have been supporting my team since I started the job I’m leaving and have grown quite close to them all (they have all expressed dismay at my leaving). I would like to thank them for…well for being great people to work with, that I’ve enjoyed my time working with them etc. I am half thinking that I would like to write them a little note in a cute card to say that to each of them personally – what do you think? Cheesy? Silly? Nice & thoughtful? Your thoughts would be appreciated :)

    1. Hlyssande*

      I think it would be a really thoughtful thing to do if the leaving is on good terms (and it sounds like it is).

      And being recognized can be really affirming even when they’re unhappy that you’re leaving.

    2. Malissa*

      I actually did that when I left my last job. I actually used thank you cards and wrote notes about what I appreciated most about that person.

      1. blink & you'll miss it*

        Thank you for your comments :) I think I will then. Being the type of person that gets excited over stationery I already have cards picked out – small cards that have a letter of the alphabet on them, picked for the letter of their first names. But I’ll probably change my mind and find something else by the time it comes to writing them!

    4. Sharm*

      I have done this at pretty much all places I worked, regardless of my position. I thought it was normal until I received so much positive feedback for it, and then learned it was quite rare.

      So I say go for it! I love receiving appreciative notes. :-)

  105. Hlyssande*

    This is late enough that I’m not sure anyone will see it, but I have to squeal about something and also maybe ask for advice on accepting recognition gracefully.

    In my department, we have a quarterly award that’s given out to people who’ve gone above and beyond in some way – we call it the Extra Mile award. Yesterday, at our quarterly forum meeting, they announced me as one of two winners for the quarter due to my extensive involvement in supporting a major project that went live last month (including driving back into the office for a 9pm training call when the internet went out at my place).

    I was completely floored, and spent the next few hours in a state of shock. The award doesn’t come with any extra perks or anything, but just being recognized was something I don’t know how to describe, really.

    Part of this is related to a long history of depression/anxiety and knowing I could do better in so many ways if I just applied some effort here and there. It sort of adds up to a nasty inferiority complex. In my lizard brain, I spend a fair part of every week having to fight intrusive thoughts about being fired (we just hired someone new for the group so clearly she’s going to replace me, etc etc). So to win an award for going above and beyond on something is both exhilarating and jarring at the same time. I’m really off balance, and kind of waiting for the other shoe to fall, mentally.

    I’m happy about the award – really, really happy. It feels like things might finally be making a good turn for me (in life outside work as well) but I’m terrified of ruining all the things at the same time.

    Anyone have ideas on how to cope with this? I’m not ungrateful, really I’m not. I’m just…really off kilter.

    1. Kai*

      First off, congratulations!

      The reaction you’re describing reminds me of impostor syndrome, where basically people have a hard time accepting or internalizing it when they do well or accomplish something. Read up on it if you’re not familiar; if it’s something you identify with that might help you.

      And secondly, I say, reward yourself. Buy yourself something nice or take some extra time to relax. You’ve earned it.

    2. fposte*

      Are you talking about public response or private thoughts? Publicly, I think not much response is usually expected to things like this; maybe have ready a short “Thanks! I know a lot of us work hard around here” to reel out if you get a response so you don’t descend into babble.

      Private thoughts are harder. For one thing, search the archives here for imposter syndrome, because that sounds a lot like what you’re talking about. Also, is this one of those situations where treating yourself how you’d treat somebody else would help? What would you say to a friend who felt that affirmation she was going her job well meant that she was sure to ruin it somehow?

      I think you might have had this view of yourself as struggling to keep up to everybody else’s level, and part of your shock is that you have to consider that you may actually be competent. It’s a funny dilemma, but any kind of paradigm shift is a tough one.

    3. Malissa*

      Smile and say thank you. Don’t ramble or the inner voices may take over.
      Also start a file on your computer of every time you get recognized for something good. Refer back to it when the voices of negativity come whispering.

  106. Kerry Smith*

    Hey guys,
    I think I messed up and I’m not sure how to handle it.

    I gave an interview to a magazine for an industry that I’m trying to move into. I just realized that one of the things they’re quoting me on is incorrect. For example, I said this product was made by A alone, when it was actually made by A, B, and C.

    I’m new at this stuff, so I have no idea how to handle this or how this undercuts my credibility. What do you all think? How should I handle this?

    1. AVP*

      Is the article online, or just in print? If it’s correctable on the internet, they may want to do that.

  107. Teapot*

    Our office has been dealing with an issue for a while that we’re not quite sure how to handle. We run several large performing arts venues and manage all the shows that present in each space. One our our upper-level managers was diagnosed with MS about 8 months ago. He’s been relatively open about it and how it’s discussed is very clear (at the employee’s discretion.) However, his health has decreased significantly since the diagnosis. This person was not a great communicator before MS became a factor, but it’s becoming event more clear now that he’s having some serious issues remembering information, communicating changes, and running through routine processes. We’ve also implemented some new software changes that have drastically changed the way we work overall.

    We’ve incorporated a general practice of being very supporting of this supervisor in that we remind him of meetings, information we may need, and working with him to figure out easier ways of handling the work they’re in charge of, among other things. But he’s is also very stubborn and reluctant to ask for help or change their past routines. Crucial and time-sensitive information is falling through the cracks and we often have to correct or redo his work. There’s a lot of frustration coming from the employees who work with him, especially when their workloads are increased by having to essentially do this manager’s work for them. We’ve tried one-on-one check in meetings and addressing issues directly, but they won’t change the way they work. His boss is aware of these issues, but hasn’t addressed them effectively and/or is too busy to find solutions.

    Obviously we want to support them as best we can, but often it feels like we’re enabling their behavior when we don’t really address the problem. Right now it looks like nothing will change until this supervisor retires, which is not going to be soon. Is there a professional and courteous way to address/improve these issues?

    1. Bryan*

      It sounds like you’ve handled it in a professional and courteous way. I think you need to go as a group to your boss’ boss. Document what things are being missed.

  108. Jules*

    Am I the only one who thinks that people on exempt status are not expected to work only 40 hours? What is the cultural norm in the US? For reference I work in Midwest. My boss and I always work beyond 40 hours when required and when we are off peak season, we can cut back however recently this guy complained to his boss that he had too much work and used my project as an excuse to drop his other projects. I was sorely tempted to kick him off my team since I can do what he does and still keep my other deadlines.

    Through out the whole project before I actually assigned work, he has sat through all meetings glazed eyed. And 6 months in, he still didn’t know what we were doing. I got fed up and assigned him work since March since he was suppose to be my technical expert but suddenly this?

    When I was working catch up on the projects (I worked on other things too) I worked late every night for 3 weeks. He works from home 2 days a week and whines about our project together as the reason he is slacking off? On top of that he tells everyone about his other employer (like WUT?). He and I butt heads before this since I work technical as well as business so he can’t pull a fast one…

    Should I do something about this or walk away? He is my peer and I don’t manage him, only the project. Is it even worth telling his boss? He and I will keep on working together since I am the tech rep for my business group.

    1. Cadie*

      The 40 hour question and this guy’s lack of productivity seem separate to me. I’m of the opinion that employees do their best work when their norm is to work around 40 hours a week, with over 40 being the exception rather than the rule. People who regularly work 50-60 hour weeks tend to get burned out. If someone works 40 hours and gets all their work done on time and well, then they’re doing their job well. It’s not a contest of who can stay after work the latest.

      As for this guy, if his work is not up-to-par, if his lack of productivity is impacting your work (which includes you having to pick up his slack) then yes, absolutely say something about that. But I wouldn’t try and turn this into an hours-counting game. Just focus on how his work or lack thereof is impacting you and the project as a whole. Alison has a few articles and columns about how to approach this conversation.

      1. Jamie*

        The ceiling for productivity does vary from person to person.

        But in a lot of workplaces the positions are structured to assume more than 40 hours, and some jobs there is no such thing as being done with your work. For a lot of positions there is no “done” you just leave when you get a clean breaking point and work out a schedule that works for you.

        I agree that excessive work will burn people out, but people do need to know what their workplaces expectations are – because if they expect you to be there 45 – 50 hours then being the only one watching the clock will hurt you professionally even if that doesn’t seem fair.

        100% agree that they are separate issues though, and his hours are not the problem productivity is.

        1. Cadie*

          You’re totally right, company-by-company standards will be different, and I know in certain sectors it’s assumed you know that 50-60 hours is standard. And you don’t wanna be the 40-hour person in a 50-hour office! So we’re on the same page there, I guess I just live in a happy imaginary world where people aren’t expected to regularly work extra hours without it being explicitly stated, haha

          I’m probably biased because I had to watch some coworkers grind themselves to the bone working 60+ hour weeks because they thought it was expected/acceptable. They were very obviously worn down and not firing at 100%, but none of their supervisors stepped in to say anything. Some higher-ups even commended them for it. But the fact was that they were so brain-fried that half the work they did at 2AM had to be redone anyway because they were exhausted when they did it. It eventually was resolved after a lot of prodding by other coworkers and, eventually, one of the higher ups stepped in and told them to stop, but it really went on too long because they didn’t value their own health/sanity, and because a lot of people would talk in that “hushed-awe” voice that they were still at the office at 1AM. That shouldn’t be a good thing!

          Yeesh, that turned into an epic ramble, sorry :)

          1. Jamie*

            I totally agree about the reverence for working crazy hours for the sake of it is ridiculous and totally counter productive. It’s about the work and why should someone with bad time management (when that’s the case) get credit for being some powerhouse when someone truly productive can do it in a normal week.

            And if you get that ideal world going let me know, because I will have my stuff packed to move there in a jiffy. :)

            But yeah, it’s all about knowing their expectations – even if they are unreasonable – and deciding whether or not you can live with them.

          2. Jamie*

            Okay, 5 coworkers wished me a happy Mother’s Day today. 4 men, 1 woman.

            My knee jerk response was “thanks, you too!” which was only not weird to the one woman who also has kids.

            I truly don’t recall anyone wishing me a happy Mother’s Day before outside my family. Is this a new thing?

            I think if they want to wish me a happy Mother’s Day they should do the workplace equivalent of breakfast in bed which is a lunch brought to me at my desk, on a silver tray, with a pink rose in a small vase. With gifts. :)

            j/k…unless they want to, and then they should know I like soup.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yeah, not related to this guy at all, because it sounds like he’s not getting work done. But when I work more than about 9 hours a day, then any extra time after that is making mistakes. And I have to spend at least the same amount of time the next morning fixing those mistakes.

        I worked at a job once where the manager wanted us to work 50+ hours a week. It wasn’t for any emergency work, he just wanted us salaried people working that much. And if you didn’t, you weren’t doing the minimum necessary. I figured getting done what was expected in 43 hours was better than his ideas of getting the same amount done in much more time and ruining my home life at the same time.

    2. Jamie*

      I have never worked anywhere the expectation for salaried people was a straight 40. A decent hiring process will ensure people know what’s expected of them (for real, not in the idealized world some people inhabit when talking to candidates.) But ime expecting to work a straight 40 and balking at anything over is not going to make you employee of the month.

      I know there will be many who disagree.

      He’s a peer so this is exactly what I would do if I were you. I’d discuss it with either my boss or his boss depending on the relationships and say nothing about his hours. I’d address solely what you aren’t getting in regards to the project and talk about how you can get X, Y, and Z – everything you need.

      If he goes gangbusters on your project and you get what you need, if he cries to his boss about not being able to do anything else that’s his bosses problem. And don’t worry about it from a moral standpoint, because trust me resenting slackers for making it unfair will eat through your soul. I used to live there.

      Just focus on his output and where he’s falling down on the stuff for you. If his boss is smart he’ll start looking more closely at things, and if he’s not you get what you need and time takes care of those who foist work off on other people. It may not be immediate, but there are consequences to that crap.

    3. Sharm*

      It seems like you’re not the only one at all. In fact, I’m the opposite, and I think *I’M* the only one that feels that way — unless the company is very explicit about it during the hiring process. And in my experience, they never are. They talk all kinds of lip service of work/life balance, but you get the side-eye if you leave at 5pm.

      I get annoyed at this unspoken rule because in my experience, employers don’t want to budge on any of the flexibility that seems like it should come with a salaried role. What I mean is, if they are willing to be more flexible about taking time off for a doctor’s appointment and making up time for that, or coming in late some days after pulling a long day the day before, then it’s fine. But expecting 40+ each week without any flexibility? I have done it, and would do it, but I am not happy about it.

  109. M.*

    Anyone have any experience managing a band? I’m currently talking to a friend’s band about becoming their manager. They need someone who can organize and can keep things on track which is something that I can do. I’m just hoping to find some advice and maybe some do’s and don’ts.

    1. Riki*

      Before you agree to manage them, you should get a clear idea of what their goals are as a band. Do they tour? Do they want to tour more? Do they want to get bigger? If so, how big? Are they pursuing this as a career or is this something fun to do on weekends? What are they doing now in terms of organization and promotion? Where are they falling short? A band manager is really a business manager, so, try to look at things from that perspective.

      DO get everything in writing. No handshake deals!
      DO hire an attorney or CPA when dealing with legal or complex financial matters. An ounce of prevention…

  110. Yeah, it's me but I don't want my name on it*

    Startled Olive! Or “WTF” kitty, hehe.

    Not-work stuff:

    1. Mini-rant: A person of my online acquaintance just got married. We used to be what I thought were friends, but after I got dumped she made a remark about how I should just get over it–a mere week afterward, in response to a post about feeling sad (then unfriended me, then blocked me). She is very much a queen bee type–I did not realize this before The Dumping. I had, much earlier, asked the Universe to help her out, please, because she couldn’t seem to find a decent guy. Well she has, and from our circle, and now they’re married.

    I know this is stupid, but I can’t help feeling disgusted by it–and she still makes a passive-aggressive remark now and then, which I just either ignore or act like she meant it seriously (bully tactic). I don’t wish her ill, and I don’t take back my Universe Request either. But it just seems unfair, that’s all. It’s just annoying, because everyone in this circle thinks she is soooooo great and no one else saw what she said to me, so they don’t really get the subtext. I can’t help hoping a bit that I meet someone who blows hers out of the water in terms of total awesomeness and OMG factor, hahaha. /rant over

    2. THE SEMESTER IS ALMOST OVER THANK GOOOOOOOOD. I’m going to write another book this summer and teach myself about screenplays (just in case–First Reader is a screenwriter, and he advised me to keep those rights if I can so more moneyyys).

    3. I sent a query out for Current Book. D:

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      Sometimes I think it would be neat to be FB friends with people from here. What kind of books do you write? Any published yet?

    2. C Average*

      I have zero words of wisdom about friend drama. I have a handful of friends and zero drama ’cause we’re all grownups, but we’re also all sort of boring with our spouses and mortgages and greying hair and suchlike. I have hazy recollections of drama, all of it back when I was young and hot and way more fascinating.

      I want to pick your brain a bit about the whole book-writing thing. I have a really excellent novel in my head. I want to put it on the page. I am actually employed as a writer, though, in a pretty fast-paced environment that eats up a lot of creative energy, and I have a hard time bringing myself to sit my butt down and WRITE at the end of the day. Any suggestions for developing some good writing habits and creating some momentum on this project?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Well, I know this seems too simple, but you have to just DO it. It really is butt-in-chair. Pick a time every day and just write. Even if you can only manage fifteen minutes, it’s like building any habit.

        If you want to get it down but it won’t come out, you could do NaNoWriMo in November. You have to write 50,000 words in a month. It has to be something new if you’re going to do it officially–you aren’t supposed to finish something you already started. I did it *unofficially* to finish Current Book and posted every day on my blog. I’ll probably do an independent version this summer when I do the sequel to the crime novel. But I also have something else I’d like to start, even if I can’t finish it right now (it requires extensive knowledge of the film industry for part of its setting, which I don’t have).

        You just have to do it. Write, write, write, and edit, edit, edit. The more you do it, the better you get at it, and the better you get at the steps. It took me forever to write the bank robber book but I was learning how to edit and format my manuscript. Once I finally sat down to finish Current Book, I whacked the rest of it out in a month. (It took longer than that for unrelated reasons).

    3. Not So NewReader*

      About #1 mini-rant. Congrats, you’re human. I think most people would be pretty PO’ed by that whole sequence of events. She’s a small fish in a small pond. Your pond is bigger and it’s going to get even bigger in a bit. (She know this, thus her poor behavior.)

  111. kas*

    So I applied to an internship, got a phone interview but received a nice email from the woman who interviewed me telling me they chose to move on with other candidates, she encouraged me to apply when something opened up again.

    Well, a second position was added so another posting was put up, guess who forgot to apply before the deadline? Ugh.

  112. Calibrachoa*

    Question about jobs that require relocation: Do you think it is advisable to mention in your cover letter that you are already very familiar with the location and that they can be assyured that the culture shock and or disappointment will not be a problem and lead to an early resignation? In this particular field (Multilingual outsourced call centers, sigh) employee retention is a pain because quite often there is a lot of “actually, living in Latveria sucks I am going home!” but I am pretty sure this would apply to a lot of other areas where relocating outside one’s own comfort zone is a thing.

    1. fposte*

      Yes, but do it tactfully–not “I know people leave the frozen wasteland that is your region but I won’t,” but “I’ve always spent my winter vacation with my Latverian grandmother in Brp, and I’m excited about the possibility of relocating there and being nearer family.”

    2. Stephanie*

      Yes! I say it. Living in Phoenix, I think there is the assumption from a potential employer that I can’t handle winter (especially after this past winter) or a higher cost of living. I just briefly mention that I’ve done my research about the climate, housing costs, etc and any other ties I have to the area (like family). I also mention I don’t need relocation expenses.

    3. Pip*

      I recently got a job in another country, and the interviewer spent quite a lot of time on making sure that I knew what I was getting into and wouldn’t break down and start crying for the Fatherland after the first week. So it’s a real concern that is good to address in your cover letter.

  113. Awkward Lunches*

    I started a new job at the same time as a few other people a few months ago. I always sit with the same three also-new people in the cafeteria at lunch everyday. Eating lunch with them is getting to be awkward and stressful though because:

    -I’m shy and self-conscious (and often tired), so I don’t talk much.
    -Sometimes they point out that I’m being quiet, which makes me more self-conscious and less talkative.
    -They sit near each other while working and chat through the day, so I feel like an outsider.
    -They all have a bunch of things in common that I have no knowledge of, so I don’t understand/can’t contribute to some of the topics they bring up.

    Since I’ve been sitting with them for the past few months, if I suddenly stop showing up for lunch, they’ll think I don’t like them anymore. But I dread lunch now, and I feel like my awkwardness probably creates awkwardness for them. I’m not sure what to do (I read two AAM threads related to lunches, but one was related to the OP becoming a manager, and the other was invites to lunch).

    1. fposte*

      What about openly redefining yourself as a good listener and not putting pressure on yourself to contribute? It might help to remember what they’ve talked about before, so you can say “So, Jane, are you still liking the new car?” and “Bob, how does Boblet like his new preschool?”

      I’m a talker, but I actually enjoy a nice break where I can let other people’s chat and stories wash over me. Maybe if you choose it deliberately it won’t feel awkward to you, since there’s nothing actively awkward about listening to people.

    2. Colette*

      I think you’re perceiving things as more awkward than they are, but maybe I’m wrong about that. Can you taper off the lunches – skip a couple of days a week to take a walk in the sun or run some errands?

      One of the things to keep in mind when you think everyone’s thinking about you is that they’re probably busy worrying about what you think about them.

  114. Ollie*

    Saw a job posted last week on Indeed that I was excited about and thought I was a good fit for, so I spent a bunch of time crafting a good cover letter and applied on Sunday. Just realized the job was posted on Indeed again on Tuesday. A bit discouraging. :/

    1. Elizabeth West*

      That doesn’t mean anything. I think some of those sites auto-post for a while. I saw things I applied to and knew I didn’t get but that they hired someone reappear, too.

      1. Ollie*

        Really?! I had no idea they do that. So, some of the jobs that I think I’m applying to right away (because they were “posted two days ago” or whatever) might just be reposts or something that was posted a week or two ago (or that was already filled). Certainly changes how I will view job postings in the future.

    2. Sydney*

      I post job ads to Indeed. They charge per click, and you set the max price per click and total budget. If you hit your budget cap, the ad comes down, but you can always increase your budget and it goes back up. I usually set my budget at $100 to start and see what kind/how many candidates come in. This gives me enough room to find the best candidates without spending too much money.

      That’s probably what’s happening here, so I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Don’t keep clicking on the ad, also. Take a screenshot, print to PDF, etc. but stop clicking on it because it’s costing the employer money.

      1. Ollie*

        I thought jobs were posted to websites like Indeed for free or for a one-time fee. Interesting to learn that they charge per click! I usually bookmark pages and will look at the page between 2 and 4 times, so I’ll start saving the postings when I first seem them for now on.

  115. PSB*

    Two quick cover letter questions:

    1) I’ve been applying to a lot of state and federal positions, and a lot of those require answering multiple questions about my skills and experience and why I want the position etc. Others will specifically request a cover letter. What do y’all think about attaching cover letters for those positions which require a bunch of other attachments (transcripts etc), but don’t ask for a cover letter? I’m torn between the instinct to always include a cover letter and the desire to show them that I can follow directions.

    2) I know that a lot of hiring managers look at a resume first and a cover letter second, if at all. I’ve been out of work for a little over three months, and left my last position after only 6 months. My cover letter explains that this was for medical reasons, since resolved. Would it look insane to put some sort of surgery plus rehab thing on my resume? I have obviously thought that it’s way too unprofessional, but maybe it would be a way to send an “I’m not a flake” message so that people will read the cover letter.

    Thoughts?

    1. Sharm*

      In regards to #1, the advice I’ve seen here is to submit a cover letter along with your resume for those places that don’t specifically ask for a cover letter. They may not have a separate spot for it, so I have combined both into one file in the past and submitted it that way. I haven’t had bites yet, but I think its’ a good idea.

      I can’t speak too much to #2, but I do think it’s best to avoid putting stuff like surgery/rehab on your resume. I have had a stint of 6 months at a job on my resume before and it’s never been an issue, but I was hired back by my original company and stayed there for another 3 years. I think you just leave it as is and hope for the best… But I would avoid putting down medical stuff on your resume, and speak to it come interview time.

    2. Marcy*

      I hire for a state government and cover letters are rare. You’ll stand out (in a good way) if you include one. The only time not to include one would be if they specifically ask you not to. Just make sure to customize it to the job and have someone look it over for typos, etc.

    3. Ollie*

      1) I think including a cover letter even when one isn’t asked for wouldn’t indicate that you can’t follow directions unless the directions specifically said “do not include a cover letter” or “do not include any documents other than what was requested.” I feel like hiring managers would either be pleased to see a cover letter or would be neutral—I can’t imagine them holding it against you.

      2) I’d leave the surgery/rehab thing off your resume. Resumes are meant to only showcase your work history (educations, skills, accomplishments, experience), while surgery/rehab is definitely personal history thing. It’d be odd to include it (and it’d waste precious space!).
      I understand why you’d want to include it on your resume since you’re worried about looking like a flake. One six-month job doesn’t make you look like a flake though. I’m not even sure you need to explain the medical situation in your cover letter. It seems like something you’d only need to bring up if you were asked why you left your previous job in the application or in an interview. Focus your cover on why they should hire you! :]

  116. Recently Resigned*

    I recently resigned from a position I’ve been at for almost 8 years where I am the manager of a large team. I’m moving on, in part, due to some challenges with my director. She is having a difficult time with my resignation, and I’ll admit, the timing isn’t great for a number of reasons, but we don’t get to choose the timing of when new jobs come around. I’ve been able to give almost 2 months notice, but unfortunately my director is going to be out of the office on vacation for the last 2+ weeks of the month.

    I want to be respectful of the process my director wants to do with regard to announcing my resignation, but she is now talking about having focus groups to discuss the potential of restructuring things, doing this before announcing my resignation because she “doesn’t want the panic to influence the feedback,” and my not telling my staff until after she gets back in June. I have serious concerns about my being able to wait until after she gets back in June both because I feel that it is going to seriously hamper my ability to adequately transition duties and because I worry about the implications of my not being able to give my staff ample notice (I work in an industry where a month plus is standard notice period). I am staying local and transition to another position where I will continue to have to collaborate with my staff in some fashion.

    I have voiced my concerns to her and she is still thinking about things, but am I basically at her mercy here with regard to how to tell my staff? Personally I don’t think my staff is going to end up in that much of a panic. I think they are going to be very surprised at my resignation and we’ve had a lot of other change recently which is going to make it difficult too, but that is also why I want the time with them to really solidify things before I leave. Any advice would be much appreciated.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you tell her the sooner that all of you start preparing the better off it will be? Panic comes from sudden surprises, from lack of information, etc. The way she is handling it will cause panic- probably because she is panicked.
      Perhaps you can give specific examples of what you need to do. “Bob will take over X but I would like to see him do this process twice before I leave. For him to do it once will take ten days. The second time will be ten more days.”

      OR “Jane needs to apply for a password to access Y site to complete her new tasks. Approval can take up to a month. I would like to start that as soon as we can.”

      Have several examples lined up. Key point, show how you are solving the problem and part of your solution is to start ASAP.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s reasonable to wait a few days or a week at her request. Not weeks, and certainly not a month plus. I’d say, “I’ve thought about it and I don’t feel comfortable waiting so long to tell people. I’d like to let people know in the next two weeks.”

  117. Daughter*

    Has anyone had a parent move in with them? My mother is very ill though generally functional. Still her doctor recommends she not live alone and that she be near a major medical center. I live close to top notch specialists. My mother and I are close but she’s luved a few states away for the last 12 Years. I do not have kids and my husband is fine with her moving in. We are both in our 40s. What are some things I should be aware of? I have strong boundaries already which helps and we will have talks about privacy for all of us and money issues. What other things should I be aware of? Would love to hear from those who have been there.

    1. Colette*

      One trip a year or one a I’ve never done this, but here are some thoughts:
      – will your mother be able to develop her own social network? How will she meet people (health permitting)?
      – what will she be responsible for chore-wise? What will you do for her?
      – how will she get to medical appointments or social events?
      – are there other family members nearby who can help?
      – is her condition likely to result in her being less functional? What will you do if/when that happens?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Sounds like she will stay with you as long as possible.
      Know your limits. Know what you can and cannot do.
      Have your Plan B ready. If this doesn’t work what is next? Or when it stops working what is next?
      Can mom be alone during the day while you are at work?

      I am not sure how old she is am guessing maybe 70? With the older folks sometimes when they make a big move they are dependent on their kids to help them find friends. Make a list of resources for seniors in your area. If she is a church-goer start looking for something that might be to her liking, and so on.

      Allot extra time for all her stuff. If she is down-sizing that could be a bit of time/emotions/money. Can you find an area in your home where she can store things that she just cannot get rid of?

      Organize her medical information for transferring. Keep copies of stuff for yourself. I hate to say it but talk about a living will with her so you know and you can be certain about her wishes.

      Talk to your hubby. Find out how what he can and cannot do- his limits. Find out what he thinks this will be like, what if it does not go the way he thinks it will. Talk about this stuff, now while you both can think it about it for a while.

  118. M*

    I went to an interview and now I’m not sure that I want the job. I am a temp in the financial department of a non-profit; when my supervisor heard about an opening for a program associate in another department, she suggested that I apply and said she put in a good word for me. She said that the position was a lot like the work I do now (which I really like) and, when I asked, she said there was not a lot of travel. I feel bad that I got so far into it and let my supervisor advocate for me, but I didn’t realize that I actually had a poor sense of what the job was about until I went to the interview. I’m trying to remind myself that that’s what interviews are for, but I still feel guilty.

    My main problem is that it requires travel, and I don’t imagine it would just be a day trip here and there (which I find stressful enough) but probably longer, international travel. I also imagined it to be a sit-at-your-desk-and-concentrate type of job, when actually it turns out to be more hands-on, or so I think; it’s so hard to tell whether I would do poorly in that type of role or not.

    I guess my questions are (a) are these stupid reasons to turn down a job, and (b) is it bad if I wait until they get back to me with a decision or do I need to let them know now that I don’t want to take the job? I guess there’s also (c) am I naive for thinking that there are other positions out there in the vein of what I’d like to do, like maybe something that’s 50/50 research and administrative, or a program assistant-type position that doesn’t require travel, or even a permanent financial assistant position? I am in DC, by the way, and am mostly focusing on other NGOs and similar organizations in the city. I really appreciate any advice you have.

    1. Ollie*

      (a) I think a travel requirement that would be stressful for you and that you’re unhappy with, and the job being different than what you expected and want, are totally reasonable and excellent reasons to turn down a job. And you can just explain that to your supervisor—you were interested in applying to the job and are grateful that she advocated for you, but after learning more about the position it just didn’t turn out to be a good fit. I’m sure you’re supervisor would be understanding (and they’d probably be horrified if they found out you took the job because you felt obligated to!).

      It sounds like you might not be totally sure about the travel and type of work though (I’m assuming this from you using the phrases “I don’t imagine and “or so I think”)? Maybe you need more clarification?

      (b) If you know you *definitely* don’t want the job, it’d be better to tell them now so they can spend their time/energy considering candidates that actually want the job. If you were considering a bunch of candidates for a position, you’d want them to tell you as soon as they lost interest, right?

      1. M*

        I think I have an okay sense of what the work involves but not a great sense of how I will deal with it. I might end up being totally fine with the “coordinator” type role, as I’ve had no problem responding to supervisors’ needs in current and past positions. But, I worry that I might not deal well with certain aspects, like having to guess at the rules as you go, or not having people listen/respond to me, or, mostly, that I find unbroken concentration on a task to be interesting, and broken concentration to be very boring. Like, “flow,” I guess? It’s hard to tell, from comparing this to past job experience (research assistant intern, data entry), whether I’ll find that flow. I can’t tell if the coordinator aspect is something that everyone deals with early-career and therefore I should just get through it.

        You’re right that I should tell them if I’m certain I don’t want the job. I’m not certain, though, and I don’t know if I should rush myself to figure it out in order to be courteous to them, but I suppose I will try to.

        Thanks!

        1. Ollie*

          “…okay sense of what the work involves but not a great sense of how I will deal with it.”

          Oh, okay. That makes sense. I feel the same way about jobs that involved customer service to a very small degree. I’ve had jobs that involved small amounts of customer service before and I was fine, but I don’t know how I’d deal with positions where it’s a prominent part of the job.

          If you’re still trying to figure out if you want the job, you don’t need to rush to give them an answer. It’s a big decision, so you should take your time if you’re still considering it. :]

  119. Noninon*

    I recently got promoted (yay!) and was wondering if it would be odd to extend a thank you to my co-workers who wrote me some very wonderful peer reviews for my performance evaluation. Nothing extravagant, just a simple reiteration of my thank-you for writing the peer review and to let them know I got a promotion.

    1. Ollie*

      I think that would be a nice gesture. It always feels good to be thanked for favors, and I’m sure they’d be interested in knowing that you got promoted (and they’d feel extra good if their reviews helped you get promoted!). :]

    2. C Average*

      Do it. They’ll appreciate hearing it. If you’re the kind of person who takes the time to do helpful things, it’s super gratifying to know your contribution mattered and is appreciated.

  120. short'n'stout*

    Just curious: what time do these open thread posts go live? Every time I see one the comments are already in four figures, so I assume it is posted in the middle of the night in my time zone :)

  121. C Average*

    I’ve been married for three years to a man with two daughters from a previous marriage. We dated for a couple years before getting married. Every year, I take the kids to get a Mother’s Day present for their mom and make them write her a card and tell them it’s fine if they pretend it was all their idea. (They’re 8 and 12, so they don’t yet have either the initiative or the cash flow to get any of this done without some adult intervention.) I always wonder if this is a common stepmother task.

    This year, for the first time, one of them made ME a Mother’s Day card at school! It says ‘I love you because you are kind, creative, understanding, and a very good cook. Happy Mother’s Day.” Awwwwww. I am gonna keep this forever.

    2. Sydney*

      That’s not typical stepmom behavior, in my experience. You sound awesome, and that’s why they’ve started figuring out they should be doing this for you, too.

      I had two women who were stepmoms to me. Stepmom 1 was with my dad after The Divorce for about 10 years, but they didn’t get married. She was more mother-y to me because she had her own kids and would just be Mom to everyone. She was threatened by the friendly relationship my parents had, and often put her own kids ahead of us. Stepmom 2 dated and married my dad in what I’d call a whirlwind romance. She didn’t have kids of her own, and I was already 17 by the time I met her so she didn’t really mother us. She acted more like an aunt, and wasn’t threatened by my parents’ friendly relationship. She would encourage us to think of my mom, and would always include her in family gatherings (whole family, not intimate ones, that’d be weird even for our family), and so forth. She’s the woman I respect highly because she figured out what worked best for our family and treated everyone with respect. My dad died a few years ago, and I try to keep up with Stepmom 2 on a regular basis because she feels more like family, even though she’s still only been in my life less than Stepmom 1 was my stepmom.

      tl;dr I bet those girls adore you. You’re stepmomming the right way.

  122. Ruffingit*

    Anyone else seriously tired of MLM schemes? Seems like a lot of people I know are into jewelry trunk shows, skin care stuff, bags, and on and on it goes. No, I do not care to attend the 100,000th “home show” I’ve been invited to this year. No, I do not want to get in on selling this “awesome” product. GAH!

    1. Stephanie*

      YES.

      Every once in a while it’s a product I might want, but the accompanying pitches are just so awful. I really don’t like how the organizations train people to monetize personal relationships and give you guilt trips for not wanting the product. I began to dread interactions with a family friend because every time I talked to her, she bugged me about her MLM pitch. It didn’t stop until my dad was like “Please. Stephanie isn’t interested in that.”

      Worst was when what I thought was a networking lunch turned into a MLM pitch. I was job searching then and said I wasn’t interested. The guy was like “So what? You’re just going to sit around and wait for someone to give you job? I’m offering you a great business opportunity here.” Mind you, it was a business opportunity that wasn’t super coherent and also cost $500 to start.

      1. Ruffingit*

        Yeah, it’s always like that. Hey, invest $500 to $1000 and then harass all your friends until they stop taking your calls and block you from Facebook.

        I have never known anyone who made money from those things. You would think people would realize that if you have to recruit others to sell stuff that it’s a pyramid scheme. People I know who otherwise are very intelligent and educated fall for this stuff. It’s disheartening.

  123. GoingCrazy*

    I know this is very later in the thread, but I hope some one can help me get out of my pickle. My family relocated to a new state due to a job. My field is a small one (and a nearby university pumps out graduates every semester in my field), so opportunities are not so plentiful. I had a few interviews and accepted an offer for a position I felt I could grow into. There were strange things said in the interview, but I could justify why something was said the way it was etc.

    Fast forward several months, and I am on edge everyday. I have learned that the organization is poorly regarded in the community despite fewer blow-ups by higher ups (but they still happen and there seems to be something brewing). Though opportunities will be limited, I concerned that taking this job will negatively affect my ability to get a job in my field at another in my immediate area. How have others recovered from working at a place that has been poorly regarded? Do I quit to focus on building connections and break ties with crazy place? Should I just weather as many storms as I can and network when the opportunities arise?

    1. Ruffingit*

      Network for sure. Working at a poorly regarded place doesn’t mean you are personally regarded badly. People understand that jobs are sometimes taken because you have no other choice. Don’t quit without another job to go to, that’s not a good idea. Send your resume out and keep the networking up.

  124. Fruitfly*

    Does anyone know a good book or website to improve English writing skills?

    My goal is to know all the grammar basics and to know how to write in clear plain English. I do not plan on being a creative writer, but just one that can get the point across in a straight-foward, understandable way. I have read the “Elements of Style”; I think the book is not comprehensive enough.

    1. Stephanie*

      My HS buddy who went from being in ESL in 9th grade to our class salutatorian said what really helped his conversational English was watching English-only TV (Vietnamese is is first language). He said news shows helped him pick up conversational, straightforward English. I’d assume newspapers could serve the same purpose.

      It’s been over a decade since I took the SAT, but the writing section on that (or the SAT II–does that still exist?) tests grammar and syntax. A test prep book for that (or a similar test) could give you some grammar basics.

      I’d think that reading blogs like Alison’s would also expose you to straightforward, clear writing. (Ignore my comments–I tend to write in run-on sentences.)

      (By the way, I had no clue English wasn’t your first language!)

    2. Stephanie*

      Also, I’d look into books on sentence diagramming. (Unfortunate to say, I don’t know any off the top of my head.) Sentence diagramming can be very dry, but it gives a good pictorial representation on how parts of English grammar relate to each other in a sentence.

    3. fposte*

      If you want comprehensive, Gardner’s Modern American Usage and Fowler’s Modern English Usage are the places to look. They’re not guides to writing like Elements of Style, though.

      For grammar rules, a non-comprehensive but very useful handbook is The Transitive Vampire, which conveys some pretty nuanced grammar stuff in amusing and memorable ways. People here have also recommended Grammar Girl’s book, but I haven’t delved into that one yet.

    4. Fruitfly*

      Thanks for your advice, everyone. I came to the US when I was in the first grade. Now I am in my 20’s. I have a quiet personality, and I do not have a large social circle. I think that circumstance exacerbate my English skills problems. I would learn a grammar rule, but I would in two or three years forget how to apply it.

      I have also tried to view Grammar Girl’s Quick and Dirty tips website more often and read grammar books that uses Gardner’s as a guide (I want to wait a while before purchasing Gardner’s, just after I know how my English skills are progressing).

      Also, whenever I bought a new grammar book, I always stumble upon a technical term (i.e. verb particles, conjugates, etc) that I either never heard or forget what it means. From that feeling, I feel that I need to read a more basic grammar book. Therefore, I have just purchased a basics grammar book (about definitions of verb forms, adverbs, etc.), a intermediate grammar book (about dangling modifiers, correct uses of commas), and a sentence-writing guidebook (correctly sentences with bad metaphors and weak verbs, etc.)

      I hope that those be the last grammar books I would purchase. When I look at grammar/English Syntax books from websites, such as GoodReads, Amazon, and Google Books, I felt like I want to buy as much as I can–but I restrain myself because most of the books obviously contain the same basic rules.

      I feel that the grammar books I purchase for myself are much more easier to read that the books my schools recommended. From my high school days to my undergrad days, I have read English grammar books such as Elements to Style, Diana Hacker’s Writer’s Reference, and John Trimble’s Writing with Style. Somehow, I just do not like reading those. I still believe that Elements of Style and Writer’s Reference provided some good grammar tips, but I still feel that the way they lay out the rules is either not comprehensive or not very organized.

      Now, I am in grad school, and I wanted to master the English language as best as I can, for sometimes, I still feel that my English is below high school level.

      1. Feed Fido, Feed Fluffy*

        I have found it very helpful to read good books.Pick up classics, ask a librarian for a selection. I think grammar is something you can learn without realizing you are learning it. Identify some scholarly journals on a topic that interests you and read them.

        1. Anonymous*

          Agreed with this, definitely. Reading good books (and a good variety of books) is the best and most enjoyable way to become an expert in the nuances of any language.

        2. Fruitfly*

          Thanks, Fido.
          I will try my best to find some time to read. Right now, I just read my grammar book and my school textbooks. I have a fiction novel that I have in my bookshelf; I should start reading that.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I just assumed your goal was to write/speak well enough to match a master’s degree level.

        But it could be that you want to be more comfortable in groups on a more social/casual level. Perhaps the slang terms and sayings we have are making you feel off kilter? Some of it catches me, too.

        Part of the problem you are seeing is that English just does not make sense. If the plural of goose is geese, then why isn’t the plural of caboose, cabeese? Or moose, meese? Makes no sense. Complicating things we park on a driveway and drive on a parkway. What is up with that? And we all struggle trying to clarify “you” singular from “you” plural.

        I know this is probably not what you want to hear but I think you have read more books on grammar than many people. I think you need to speak it. If you are striving for perfect grammar you will look odd to others. No one has perfect grammar. PLUS we sometimes deliberately use bad grammar to make a point or to make our sentences stand out.

        I had to write a big paper for my BS. Several professors read it. I watched in total amusement as one prof would remove a comma, the next prof would put the comma back in. One prof removed a word and put in another word then the next prof put the original word back in place. This “editing” went on for weeks. The point of my paper was totally lost and it became all about the commas and the word choice.

        In my mind, true communication is speaking in a manner that most people understand what you are saying. I had a dear family member (DFM) that had an extensive vocabulary. He was a walking dictionary. Other family members complained that they could not understand what DFM said. They could not carry on a conversation with him. The situation was so bad, that his BOSS wrote him up for it!

        Perfect grammar is not going to help you be less shy. In fact, others will find you intimidating. Personally, I stay away from grammar police because I will not win. EVER.

        I think it is more to the point for you to put yourself around people who are talking with you. Can you tutor someone in your first language and they help you with English? How about Toastmasters? Or how about discussing this with a trusted professor?

        I can read all the books I want on brain surgery, I will not be a brain surgeon until I get out there and do it. Likewise with you. And if someone makes fun of you- move away from them and find other people. Not everyone is a jerk.

        1. Fruitfly*

          Thank you for your guidance, Not So New Reader.

          I will try to work with my professors on improving my written communication. I also understand what you mean by “no one has perfect grammar.” Some grammar book authors also had made that point. And I also saw many book reviewers complained that some grammar books recommendations on correctly sentences might actually make the sentence unfit for the flow of the paragraphs that it was in.

          It will take some time for me to expand my social circle and to find better social communication opportunities. I will work on that.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I am sure you will do very well. I see how you write here so I know that you work at things with sincerity. Hang on to that sincerity, it will serve you well.

    5. Trixie*

      You might also look at Coursera for online classes, I remember a couple classes focusing on improving writing skills. Excellent practice, and free!

  125. Anonymous*

    Hi everyone, I know I’m late but I just wondered if anyone had any advice.

    One of my colleagues has been increasingly relying on other members of staff to do her work for her.

    For example, ten minutes before the end of her shift she found she had a semi-complicated task to do (actually this task was to rectify a mistake she had just made). She asked me for help and I tried to advise what to do to fix it but she spent the full ten minutes saying “this always happens to me, I get complex things to do at the end of the day and can’t get home one time”, then went home and left me to fix the problem as I was on a later shift.

    There was another incident where another colleague of mine was on her way out of the building at the end of the day but realised he’d forgotten something so went back to his desk to retrieve it, only to find that she had left a pile of papers on his desk that needed to be sorted out (filed, shredded etc).

    There have been quite a few issues like this, including several times when she’s told a customer she would investigate something for them and get back to them, and then either passed it to someone else to deal with or just done nothing with it.

    I am at the same level as this person but am seen as a senior member of staff across the department and I’ve had a couple of different people coming up to me and saying things about this and that it’s getting worse. I feel that I’m going to have to let my manager know about this but does anybody have any ideas about how to actually handle this with the colleague in question? I don’t like the feeling that I’m going behind her back with this but equally I’m not sure it’s my place to raise the issue with her (as a bit of background information, this is made worse by the fact that my colleague notoriously doesn’t handle even the slightest criticism very well and has been known to get angry and storm out when faced with any kind of negative feedback).

    Any thoughts would be helpful.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      OK, well this one actually isn’t too bad, because you can frame it as being concerned. So what you can do is tell your manager that you feel awkward bringing it up but you’re wondering if everything is ok with coworker because lately she’s been dropping tasks and seems really overwhelmed. Say you’re happy to pick up the slack from time to time, but it’s happening more and more and making it more difficult to do your task. You can say that this hadn’t previously been an issue and you’re concerned something is going on with her, or maybe she needs to move schedules, or something.

      In all seriousness, it sounds like something IS going on with her.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Her right to get home on time does not trump anyone else’s right to get home on time.

      If that pile of papers landed on my desk it would be moved right back to her desk.
      I had materials moved into my area when I was on break, as in “Here, fix this”. I checked with my boss to be sure that he did not suddenly decide to leave stuff with me. No, he said. With that, the materials went back to the person they came from.

      I think you should say something directly to her before you go to the boss. So you can show you tried to change the situation. Perhaps you can say “Hey, this has been happening a lot for you lately. How can we fix this?”

      If you really feel that is not an option, then just simply tell her “No, I can’t work on that, I have other irons in the fire.”

      I think I would give one shot at talking to her. Since a blow up is expected, I think that would be part of my talk with the boss. Taking negative feed back is a part of holding down ANY job. So you have a two part problem- she is not doing her work and she is unprofessional about accepting negative feedback. Try to document/substantiate with examples of what you have seen personally. (If you think you are going to get hit or have other dangers then skip talking to her and go to the boss. I have done this, too. But I had witnesses that agreed it looked like I was going to get hit.)

      I would do this soon. Very soon. The longer it goes on the bigger the problem will be. I have very little sympathy for people who use their emotions to control others. This is what is going on here, she is controlling all of you with her outbursts. (This is out-of-character for me, because usually, I think well try X or try Y or try Z. But I suspect you have a person who does not want to be helped. Give it one shot then go to the boss.)

    3. C Average*

      I’ve had deliberately helpless coworkers. Here’s how I deal with them. Maybe something like this would work for you.

      When she asks you to do something for her, say something like, “I get the impression you might not actually be learning this stuff by watching me, so I’m going to let you drive. I’ll talk you through what needs to be done, but you’ll be the one actually doing it.” If necessary, hand her a notebook and a pen so she can write down anything she might not remember just from performing the actions.

      If you sense she’s wandering, call her on it. Say, “Hey, I get the sense you’re not really engaged here. I need you to focus when I’m teaching you this. You’re going to need to be able to do this on your own going forward, so it’s important that you actually get it, not just go through the motions. I may not be here to talk you through the next time.”

      If she drops a ball and you notice but she doesn’t ask for help, don’t offer it. I know this is really hard when you’re conscientious and you know a customer could be affected–you want to jump in and fix things. But you need to let her actions have some consequences, or she’ll just keep on assuming other people will protect her.

    4. Anonymous*

      Just thought I’d come back to give an update and thank you guys for your advice.

      I’d almost talked myself out of doing anything about this, thinking I was blowing it out of proportion, but I decided to have a quiet word with my manager about it. He’d noticed a dip in my colleague’s motivation and an increase in her bringing things to him to sort out, but didn’t know about the other things that I’d noticed (in my job we all work quite independently, so while there are checks in place it’s often the people who are closest to what’s going on that pick up on anomalies first).

      My manager asked me to conduct an investigation into how her work’s going so I spent today going through what she’s been doing for the past few days and found quite a lot of serious issues that neither me nor my manager had any idea had been going on (misadvising clients, taking important information but not doing anything with it, or misrepresenting the information she’s been given, etc – some of these issues are things that could potentially cause legal issues for clients and/or result in the company having to pay out large sums of money to resolve them).

      I wrote up a report so that now my manager has concrete examples of these things, and he’s going to speak to her about it tomorrow. Needless to say I’m glad I did mention it as the longer this goes on, the more problems there will be for everyone. Now we just need to wait to find out what happens when she’s confronted about it…

      1. Ruffingit*

        I’m sorry to hear she’s been doing these things. I will be interested in an update. Hope everything works out for the best for everyone involved. And good for you for going to your boss. Who knows what could have happened here had you not done that.

        1. Anonymous*

          Thanks. My manager had a meeting with her today. I wasn’t there so didn’t get the full details but he’s told her what he’s found and that it needs to stop. He’s told her that he’s going to investigate further and see if there is any improvement, and he’ll also pass the details on and discuss it with his own boss to see what’s best to do moving forward. It’s quite likely there’ll be a performance improvement plan and potentially they could follow up with disciplinary action.

          I do feel glad that I said something as there could have been some nasty surprises for the company further down the line as a result of the way she’s been working (or not working as the case may be). I can’t deny that it’s made things a bit awkward though…today she was muttering about “a witch-hunt” and wanting to know who the snitch is in the department. I’m not ashamed to have reported it (the way I see it, if she’d been doing her job properly, there would have been nothing to report) but ideally I’d like to avoid a confrontation over this.

          1. Vancouver Reader*

            It’s good that she’s been talked to and that she can’t get away with all these errors anymore. She needs to realize, as you said, that if she hadn’t been making all these errors, there wouldn’t have been a problem in the first place, and so to call it a witch hunt is hardly appropriate.

  126. Gmac*

    Hi everyone.

    So I’m desperately looking for other work to get away from my bully of a manager. I work in the nonprofit I love the job. But I excepted this situation with my manager is not going to change. This is my first proper job after graduation and I’m finding it hard just to switch off until I find something else. I get so wound up by it!

    Any tips on switching off so this stuff doesn’t get to me?

Comments are closed.