open thread – June 20, 2014

by Alison Green on June 20, 2014

Olive tinyIt’s the Friday open thread. This post is for work-related discussions only. Please hold anything off topic for the free-for-all open thread that’s coming this Sunday.

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

{ 1,238 comments }

{ 1,238 comments… read them below }

  1. Dan*

    Piggy backing off of yesterday’s charity conversation, are non profits better or worse at pushing “voluntary” charity contributions than for profits? Worst I ever had was working for a large defense contractor, and haven’t heard a peep from my non profit. But we don’t really do “feel good” work, so I don’t know how different it is for those kinds of nonprofits.

    1. Stephanie*

      Government =/= nonprofit, but my old agency really, really pushed the Combined Federal Campaign. And CFC lasts for months. >.<

    2. JayDee*

      I work for a UW funded nonprofit, and we are encouraged to donate (and designate our organization if we want). Our ED always says the goal is 100% participation, but there’s not a huge push. We are all supposed to attend a kick-off meeting and if we miss it we have to get forms from the gal who coordinates things. And she sends out a reminder email or two about when forms are due (less to pressure people and more because those who donate will totally forget and not turn them in on time otherwise).

      There will occasionally be other charitable things like toiletries/food/clothing drives, and most people do participate but there’s not a ton of pressure. You can slide under the radar and not participate without anyone noticing.

    3. KJ*

      At my nonprofit, there’s definitely a distinct push to give back to our org once you come management. I don’t feel this is unreasonable or unfair – a certain level of commitment to the mission is expected at our level, and the emphasis is more about the percentage of manager participating than the actual dollars raised.

      1. Monodon monoceros*

        The non-profit I used to work for pushed everyone to give back to the org. I didn’t like it. I guess I can see it being somewhat more important for manager level and above, but for me, I felt like I already gave so much of my time, lower salary, and lack of benefits to my org. When I wanted to donate, I had other interests that I preferred to donate to and I didn’t like the assertion that I didn’t care enough about my org to donate.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Same here, I gave in non-monetary ways. I felt it was up to the company to figure out how to leverage that to their advantage. (This on the heels of years of saying, “Let’s try this, let’s try that.” It fell on deaf ears.)

        2. Elizabeth West*

          That happened at the NP where I worked as well. We had a requirement to do so. I felt the same way about it, but we ended up purchasing an ice machine for our floor and our contribution to that counted, so I felt a little better about it.

        3. Kimberlee, Esq.*

          While I certainly don’t think giving to your org should be mandatory, and everyone should be free to give as their hearts desire, I don’t like the justification that you already give non-monetarily. I mean, you signed on at a certain salary, level of benefits, and workload. That’s your job. You’re not doing them any favors by doing your job, they’re paying you to do it. Unless you’re saying you would actually decline a pay raise to support your organization, you’re not doing anything more than what would be expected from anyone else in your role.

          Which, again, is not to say you don’t kick ass or that you should donate. I’ve just always found that particular justification grating. :)

          1. Laura*

            But I think the point is, people accept a lower salary/less benefits *because* they care about that organization’s mission so much. They could go to another job, perhaps at a for-profit company, and make more. They choose not to *because* they believe in the non-profit’s mission and care about it.

            So if they’re taking $10k less in pay because they really believe in what they do…how is that not giving? And why should they then, out of the reduced income, have to also give money? (If they want to, that’s great. But to make it mandatory seems wrong.)

            1. Anonsie*

              Exactly this.

              And even though it’s a job that you’re being paid for, there’s still something to be said for the fact that it’s the work you do all day every day. That’s a big contribution regardless of what you get in return.

          2. Dan*

            I don’t think this conversation has much to do with “doing anything more than what would be expected from anyone else in your role.” If everyone is expected to give back to the org, than that’s the expectation. If everyone who works there is expected to support the mission and take below-market pay, then that’s the expectation. Nowhere did the prior commentor suggest that s/he’s doing more than their fair share.

            That commentor’s biggest issue was the appearance that s/he “didn’t care about the mission” because s/he didn’t donate. What that person said was that lower benefits and lower salary should have demonstrated his/her concern for the mission.

            I happen to agree with that poster. I don’t work for below market wages for no reason.

    4. Al Lo*

      I work for two non-profits — one with only 2 staff, and one much larger (but still quite small in the big scheme of things). At the larger job, all employees are included in our annual campaign mailout, but I’ve been there almost 2 years and haven’t found any specific pressure to give. My boss understands that we’re all underpaid, and we give in other ways. Her husband’s job means that they are relatively wealthy (she doesn’t take a very large salary from our organization), so they give quite generously, and many of the staff also give proportionately, but it’s never been explicitly asked of me.

      As for the other organization — my husband and I do give to it as part of our planned giving. There’s a much greater sense that my $50/month is desperately needed — especially since I do the books and see how desperately that $50 can make a difference some months.

      Both organizations operate on tight budgets, but the difference is between a $50,000 annual budget and a $2M annual budget (and programming that reflects those numbers), so at this point, we give to the one, but not the other.

      My husband used to work at a church, and there wasn’t an expectation there, at least at his staff level. I believe that the pastoral staff, and particularly the lead pastors, were expected to donate back, but I don’t think there was significant pressure on the support and non-management staff, although I’m sure many of them did. We did for part of the time he worked there, but not all of it — it just depended on how we chose to divvy up our charitable giving in any particular year.

    5. BRR*

      I think it depends on each specific organization. I’ve worked for two non-profits. One did not push the UW drive very hard but did push moderately hard for the drive for our own organization. My current one pushes a little harder for UW but still not as bad as some other people’s companies on here. They’re a lot bigger about 100% participation but encourage it through an employer match and prizes raffled off for departments that reach 100%.

    6. C Average*

      That conversation yesterday made me SO glad this isn’t a feature of my workplace. It sounds awful to get publicly pressured in the workplace to give to a particular charity or to donate in a particular way.

      My company often sees an emerging need and pledges a certain amount if a certain amount is donated, which I like. For example, after the Japan tsunami, an article went up on our corporate site letting us know if the workforce donated x dollars, the company would donate x more dollars. We always meet these goals.

      We also have a pretty robust corporate match program that includes a lot of different charities.

      And we do ad hoc stuff as it arises. There’s a guy from our department who has a brain tumor and, though he has insurance, can definitely use money for expenses that aren’t covered as he’s getting treatment. His immediate team set up a fun run with T-shirts and I think everyone donated way more than the requested amount for the shirts, and a lot of people just handed them checks.

      tl;dr = The idealist side of me thinks people will give to good causes even if they’re not badgered, and my experience in my current workplace seems to bear this out.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      I work for a non profit and there is never a discussion about donating to our cause with $$. But we are a self sustaining non-profit with a good revenue stream. I’m betting things are different if you work for charities where all funds come from donations.

    8. JC*

      I would agree that it might depend on the type of non-profit, if it is indeed more prevalent among nonprofits. I also work for a nonprofit whose mission is not the type you’d fundraise for, and we do zero fundraising for charities.

      I used to work for the federal government, and I thought that CFC was pretty out of control. We spent so many man-hours having events to fundraise for CFC, and someone even got detailed from their regular job to head CFC for many months. It seemed like an inappropriate use of taxpayer dollars to me. Money that was allocated to my agency to work on a particular issue, not to fundraise for charities.

    9. AnonAgain*

      A nonprofit I formerly worked at had a very, very hard push recently to achieve 100% of staff as donors. I don’t know for sure but am pretty certain they gave “on behalf of” anyone who did not make a voluntary donation.

      My favorite there though was a few years back when the economy tanked, they had to cut pay for the executive staff. In return, they recorded that pay cut as an “in-kind” donation of sorts and listed them in the agency’s highest giving “club”.

    10. Anoners*

      I for in NFP and we don’t force any sort of charity stuff. We do food drives and other stuff of the like, but no one is hassled in any way (thankfully!!)

      My bestie works in a for profit, and they’re always making them do charity initiatives. I think it really does just depend on the workplace.

    11. Courtney*

      This is a great question. In my opinion I think it’s worse for non-profits for pushing “voluntary” charity contributions than for for-profit companies. My thinking is that if you have long-term tenure at the non-profit you believe in their mission and support charity in that way.

      Plus in my mind workers at non-profits are typically paid less than similarly qualified individuals in for-profits companies.

    12. Diane*

      Not charity, but along the same lines – I work for a fortune 500, and they are asking for donations to support the companies political interests. Everyone is encouraged to make a monthly contribution of $75 or more so the company can give the money to political campaigns which supports it initiatives. This is the company that boasted a billion dollars in profit last year. I find it disgusting they have all this money, and are asking employees for money.

      1. AVP*

        And for political stuff! For campaigns that probably half the company doesn’t support, even if it’s in your career interests to do so. Ouch.

    13. A Jane*

      I’ve worked at two non-profits now. The first one was going through real financial problems during the 2007-2008 recession, and it was strongly encouraged that we join our own membership program and pay for the services. Many of us disagreed with the practice and opted out.

      I now work at a very large, and decently funded non-profit where the culture understands that we’re already helping our own movement. We have a list-serve where we can share other volunteer opportunities or fundraisers.

      That being said, I’ve also worked at two for-profit companies. The first one offered a volunteer off day where you could take a day off and work for any organization. The only two requirements were that you got the day off approved by your manager (nothing different), and then write about your day on the company’s internal social media site.

      The second for-profit company cancelled their blood drive because they couldn’t get a conference room. Seriously.

    14. Anonsie*

      It depends on the culture, obviously, but in my experience nonprofits tend to feel like your whole job is a charitable contribution so asking for more is done pretty unobtrusively. It would be kind of hard to play the guilt game with people who work every day on charitable endeavors, you know?

      In my experience you maybe get a reminder about workplace giving once a year, as a general message to all employees, without any direct followup.

    15. JamieG*

      We do the UW thing at my store, but it’s pretty low-key. HR tells us to fill out the little donation slip thing when we clock in at some point during the campaign, but there’s zero expectation that we’ll donate anything. We also do penny wars, where the manager whose box has the most money in it gets water ballooned or pied in the face or something, but that’s just some labelled boxes in the office. Nobody seems to care much, or even pay attention (beyond HR making sure you turn your slip in), but it’s an option if you feel like donating.

      1. Noah*

        I had a “disagreement” with the UW drive coordinator at my office last year. They were pushing my employees to turn in those slips saying whether did or did not intend to donate anything. I told my employees they didn’t have to and told the UW coordinator to leave us alone. Went all the way to the CEO and thankfully I was successful. Now no one has to return those stupid forms unless they actually want to donate.

    16. Jaime L.*

      I work for a nonprofit that is a UW member. We definitely have a UW drive. It is mostly voluntary. There are people who do not give, and execs are fine with it, so people are not pressured to give 100% as an organization to UW. They do have several email meetings and reminders about it so folks might get pressured in that sense. It’s generally presented to staff as the United Way gives so much to us that we should support them. A staff member, typically in an admin position, coordinates the drive.

      However, our agency also does a staff annual giving drive to benefit our organization. There is pressure for 100% staff to give to that, even if the donation is $1. This is presented as, it doesn’t matter what you give, you can even just give a penny, just as long as you give something. The Director of Development started this to use this number as inspiration (ie, our staff is so committed, that they even give of their own money to the cause! We have 100% staff giving!) There’s no trouble or consequences for not donating, but there is a lot of pressure from everyone. I believe some staff, not all, resent this as our organization tends to underpay middle and lower support staff while the execs do well. The staff who resent it feel like I already give so much, I don’t make much money as it is, why should I give money back. It doesn’t bother me personally because I would have chosen to donate on my own anyway, but I can see and respect where they’re coming from on the issue.

      Most folks at my organization are charity-oriented to begin with so throughout the year there are several drives like canned good drives and things of that nature. Those are completely voluntary. The staff runs them and decides which charities to give to.

    17. Kat*

      I work in fundraising and throughout my career have only worked in one nonprofit that had an employee giving campaign. That was a college too. I had a past director who said that employee campaigns are basically lazy fundraising. So you know… there’s that. I kind of tend to agree! The same time and energy spent getting your staff to give a total of what? $5k? can be spent finding a donor who will give more than that. staff know what’s going on. They’ll give if they can and want to.

  2. ZSD*

    Any suggestions on what sort of jobs to look for when you might live somewhere for less than a year? My husband is applying for a one year visiting assistant professor position in a Midwestern college town. If he gets the job, he’d be employed there for about nine months (one academic year). What sort of job could I get in which my boss won’t be upset if I leave in less than a year?

    1. CLM*

      Not sure what you do for a living, but are you qualified for any kind of contract work? Contracts often run six months to a year, and while they may get extended, you can also just decline to renew.

      Alternately, you could aim high and look for the (my personal) holy grail: a full-time remote work position with a company who won’t care where you are living while you work for them.

      Or you could see if you could get some kind of admin/staff job at the school where he’s working?

      1. Angora*

        You can look at positions at the university. Many times they run through the academic year only. Especially things like the bookstore, student clinic, student services, etc.

    2. NW Cat Lady*

      What do you do now? Is it something that you can either transfer to another office or work from home? Can you do something contract or self-employed for that time?

      You can check out temp agencies in the area. Some of them are looking to place temp-to-permanent, but there are also lots of them that are looking to place someone for a set period of time.

      Other than that, you might want to consider retail, with some sort of volunteer opportunity to keep any skills fresh.

    3. BRR*

      I know sometimes universities help with spousal employment for professors, but I don’t know how much this applies for visiting faculty.

      1. Dr. Speakeasy*

        Depending on where your interests lie – Substitute teaching might be an option. The pay isn’t great but generally all you need is a college degree (in some states just a number of college credits will qualify).

      2. College Career Counselor*

        Most universities are not going to make explicit efforts to assist with the trailing spouse’s job search for visiting professors. That’s something that is generally only done (and not automatically, either) for tenured or tenure-track faculty coming in. That said, depending on the size of the university (and your skill set/work background), some universities have temp job listings within the institution to cover for people who are on maternity leave, out ill, or for project work.

        1. Meg Murry*

          Yes, if he gets the job, once he has his offer in hand its worth asking the chair or HR at the college for suggestions of places to apply that fit your background – they might not be able to help, but its worth asking. What do you do now/what is your background?
          Also, I wouldn’t mention the 1 year thing while applying. If someone asks, just say your husband is a new professor -leave off the visiting. You never know – he could get a 2nd year at the school, or one in another town nearby, or not be able to find another position after this one right away – so I wouldn’t approach the job search as too temporary unless he already has a job lined in for fall 2015.
          Last -if he’s offered the job, you need to go find somewhere to live immediately. We run rentals in a college town, and most everywhere worth living is already rented for the fall, so don’t wait to find somewhere to live – the longer you wait, the worse your choices will be.

        2. BRR*

          I agree that it’s usually for TT faculty. I know at my employer (large university) they have one person who coordinates it and we hire a few temporary people so that it might be a similar situation for the OP.

    4. Rana*

      Depending on your field, you might also consider applying for positions at the college itself – they’d be used to the turnover and you’d be on the same schedule, more or less. (They’ll probably be part-time jobs, though, in my experience.)

      It was this sort of dynamic, btw, that encouraged me to start freelancing, as that meant my work was portable. But, again, that depends on whether your work transfers to that venue.

      (spouse of adjunct professor and former adjunct/visiting professor myself)

      (If you want to pm me, I might have more specific info – odds are decent I’ve probably lived in the town in question.)

      1. Ellie H.*

        I agree totally with Rana. There are usually a lot of temp jobs (although they may be part time) available at universities, especially during admissions processing. That’s how I came into my job, started temping and moved into different positions.

    5. ZSD*

      Thanks, everyone. I currently work as a staff member at a large public university. I don’t think it’s true that university jobs tend to be temporary; when I took this job, my boss asked me to commit to staying for three years.
      I hadn’t thought about temp work, though. That’s a possibility. I wonder how much of my current job I could do remotely…

      1. Meg Murry*

        Yes, as a “trailing spouse” to an academic, the more portable your career is, the better, as you may be moving around a lot unless/until your spouse gets tenure.
        I think if you already have a position at a university you are most likely going to be able to re-use those skills in another position at a college, but if you are going to a small school the jobs in the department you are in now may not open very often. I’d wait until your husband has an actual offer, then ask if the school has a temp pool – and check their website for vacancies in your type of role currently.

        2. Angora*

          They have what’s called emergency hire pools in my neck of the woods. They are great ways to get hired in. But many of them require you to apply every three months to keep your name out there. And if they offer an applicant seminar … go. It’s a great place to network and puts your name out there with the HR staff. You’ll be filling in for people out on emergency leave, FMLA, vacation, and sometimes they may be planning to hire a permanent person but individuals that are on the interview committee are not available for interviews at that time; so they go the emergency hire route. Normally emergency hire positions will only last 120 days; sometimes they get extensions but it’s unusual.

          Another thing to look for; is to look for positions that are funded by foundation and or sponsored programs versus the state budget (assuming it’s a state university). Many times experienced employees will not apply for a position on campus if there is a risk of funding drying up.

          Than get every bit of training that you can. They offer some of the best software training for their staff out there.

      2. Jaime L.*

        My husband is in the US Army and where we are now we’re going to be here less than a year. I work in development and communications for nonprofits. Our last location we were there 5 years. We moved to where we are now back in January and will move again before the year is up. I have a great relationship with the organization I work for so when I told them we were moving here we were able to set it up so that I work for them remotely. I’m not sure what it is you do for the public university. While you might not be able to work for that public university remotely, you may be able to do that type of job remotely or on a contract basis.

        Good luck!

        1. ZSD*

          Thanks! I hadn’t thought about the analogous position that a lot of military spouses must be in.

  3. Carlton Banks*

    Anyone ever survive a layoff?

    Our company just laid off 30% of its employees. Rough times. I survived, but not without the work of two c-level execs who aren’t with us anymore. Overwhelmed is just one way to put how I’m feeling right now. I’m strangely looking forward to the challenge in some weird way, sure, but stressed out nonetheless.

    Advice (or any encouragement ha ha ha) welcome!

    1. Natalie Anne Lanoville*

      I’ve worked with companies that have gone through re-structuring and downsizing, you have my empathy and also my congratulations.

      All I can say is, companies feeling the sting of cuts are allergic to negativity and will go to great lengths to weed it out, even irrational lengths (not saying my companies did that, but I’ve seen it).

      Keep an iron grip on flapping lips, particularly gossip, back-stabbing, complaining etc (even if the lips aren’t yours).

      Be as upbeat and agreeable as possible, not only at work, but also on social media and socialising. But also keep your boundaries! Being a positive go-getter but also maintaining your boundaries will make you look very attractive.

    2. PEBCAK*

      You should push back on the additional work so it doesn’t swallow you up. Your leverage is as follows: after layoffs, a manager does NOT want to lose anyone. They know that if they do, they are compounding the problem of already running VERY lean, and that it’s also very likely the position won’t be backfilled. So, keeping that in mind, ask what can be deprioritized and/or explain that you won’t get everything done. Don’t be a martyr; the layoffs have already happened.

    3. Spinks*

      I have survived a 30% layoff (back in the days of the internet bubble). Morale was pretty low afterwards and the company was never the same again. I’d start looking around, just so you have a Plan B in place in case you don’t like the way things shake out.

      1. Aunt Vixen*

        +about a million.

        I happened not to survive my organization’s 30% layoff, but everyone who did has been looking for lifeboats ever since, and they’re right to, because it’s not like without the 30% of us that got cut the place is now doing just fine. Have a plan. Even if you never exercise it.

      2. AnonAnalyst*

        This. I survived a 30% layoff in 2009 and it pretty much destroyed morale at the company. In the 6-9 months following the layoff, there was a huge amount of turnover (myself included). I absolutely agree with what was said above about pushing back on some of the additional work by asking what can be deprioritized, but start looking – things seemed bad immediately after the layoff but continued to get worse as time went on, so if something similar happens in your organization, you have an escape plan (or at least a head start).

      3. Carlton Banks*

        Thanks for the advice! Absolutely. I have been applying here and there, but the catch is that I’ve only been with my current company for five months, and my last company for seven, so (correct me if I’m wrong) I’m sure this wouldn’t look too great on my applications.

        The good thing is that morale doesn’t seem to be too low, hence why I’m excited for the challenge (though rightfully nervous, I think). Our executives have always been extremely supportive and are fighting tooth and nail for both the company and laid-off employees (they are reaching out to their network to find people jobs, or writing recommendation letters to those whose pays got cut, which isn’t all that necessary, of course, but I respect them for it). The truth is I want to stay here, and I hope it works out, but given the reality of the situation, I am looking for new opportunities. The only hurdle is my five month stint.

    4. Dan*

      I survived two rounds and then got whacked. The way in which companies conduct layoffs can have HUGE impacts on morale. If you treat the dearly departed like crap, yes, it’s going to have an impact on the remainder. But if you treat them well, then the remainder can honestly look up and say, “I guess it had to be done, but they did it as humanely as possible” and feel good about the company.

      My last job would have layoffs out of the blue and then say “that’s it for now” without any indication on when the next rounds would come. And then management actually seemed to be SHOCKED that people would quit. Idiots.

      Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. Crappy raises. No bonuses. Adds up to excellent retention plan.

      1. Audrey*

        My employer has announced that there will be a 15% reduction in professional staff by the end of next year (over 5o0 jobs to be lost! arrgh) and predictably morale is at rock bottom. I think TPTB are hoping that enough people just resign before they wield have to the axe.

          1. Angora*

            They prefer to have employees walk so that they are not paying severance packages.

            Heads up to anyone that is getting laid off in the near future, etc. Many times they will have a severance letter that you sign; in order to get your severance pay. They will include where you waive any rights to workman’s compensation, or your rights under FMLA etc. You have to waive those rights in order to get your severance monies.

            I was in the 2nd batch laid off so I was familiar with the form. One of my co-workers had filed a workman’s comp claim from falling on the floor. You know .. rain on marble flooring. Tore her shoulder up pretty bad. They were really dragging out the response to her claim. The doctors were getting ready to do surgery and it looked like she wouldn’t be returning to work anytime soon. She filed for FMLA a couple of days before the laid offs.

            I called and told her to not to sign the form until she takes it to a lawyer if they laid everyone else off. She didn’t sign it; they were forced to cover her multiple surgeries , physical and occupational therapy, etc. But she would have been off work with a medical condition and no medical insurance unless she paid for COBRA …. but who has the money for that when they are job searching.

            She was a private woman so I do not know if she got a paycheck or not during the medical stuff. She may have been required to sign a non-disclosure agreement to get monies.

      2. AndersonDarling*

        At an old job we lost 25% of the workforce. They gathered everyone into a room and had a staff meeting. During the meeting, managers pulled out the people who were being laid-off. When we went back to our desks, they were already gone. It was a disturbing way to go about it. That was back in the 90’s and honestly, the company had a lot of redundancy so the layoff did not impact production. But then they had another round, and another, and then I jumped ship.

    5. C Average*

      I survived a big round of layoffs at my company back in 2008. I was fairly new and was honestly surprised I survived. A lot of far more tenured people lost their jobs. Looking back, I think the company did the best it could to perform these layoffs the right way (the workforce knew the layoffs were coming, those laid off received generous severance and other assistance, we knew no further layoffs were coming after the first round, etc.), but of course it was still really hard.

      Here’s my off-the-cuff thoughts:

      –Don’t try to figure out why certain people (including you) survived and others didn’t. You’ll never know, and speculating is a waste of time and likely to lead down weird mental pathways where you really don’t want to go.

      –If this hasn’t already been done, schedule time with your manager to talk openly about what new responsibilities are falling to you and where they should rank among your other priorities. When you’re taking on other people’s work, it can be challenging to know just how important any given task or action item is in the bigger scheme of things.

      –Know that things are going to be subdued for a while. There might not be an office party for the holidays this year, for example. There’s always a period of time during which celebration of anything just seems in bad taste. Know that this will pass. The old normal may not ever be normal again, but the new normal isn’t forever, either.

      –If you were close to people who were laid off and want to remain in contact, do. There’s no need to be weird about it. My company actually wound up hiring back a lot of the people we’d laid off in different roles once the economy picked up and hiring resumed. I was glad I’d stayed in touch with these folks and could put a good word in for them when I knew they were applying for a job here.

      –Don’t feel too bad about “strangely looking forward to the challenge.” Yes, it’s sad that people lost their jobs, but if the net result is that you wound up with a challenging and interesting role, there’s no need to create a second victim by feeling guilty and conflicted about it. If you enjoy the challenge and are up to it, now is the time your company needs clutch players who excel in difficult circumstances. Embrace that–don’t fear it.

      Good luck!

      1. A Jane*

        I agree with C-Average’s first point. I survived two rounds of cuts, and I heard through the grapevine that my position was saved through some type of favoritism. It added to my ongoing concerns about the organization and really pushed me to find a place where I could feel appreciated for my work effort and not deal with any questions of why I was still there.

      2. AmyNYC*

        I would add make any doctors/dentist appointments you’ve been putting off. If you do get laid off, you don’t know what your insurance situation might become.

      3. Izzy*

        Speaking from the viewpoint of someone who was RIF’d a few weeks ago, a few things I wish I had done in order to plan better. Just an extension of some of the backup plans mentioned by other posters:

        – If at all possible, purge your desk/workspace while you still can. Don’t take everything away, but don’t have so much that it would take multiple boxes to pack it up. At the time, being surrounded by pictures and books at my desk was great, but I wish I had removed some items earlier.

        – Save copies of your performance evals at home.

        – Backup a portfolio of your work to an external hard drive or the cloud.

        – Don’t make yourself crazy by asking “Why” questions.

        – Save a copy of your contacts (emails and phone numbers) somewhere that wouldn’t require a company-issued laptop or mobile device to access.

        1. Angora*

          Great advise. Especially the contact info, etc. When I was working for a contractor they gave me no heads up. They had me do all the monthly financial reports, than let me go after I submitted them that morning.

          Than she stood over my shoulder and I was refused computer access to contact anyone via e-mail, print out my address book, etc.

    6. Scott M*

      Not completely relevant, but at one of my wife’s previous jobs, they had to hire back some employees as contractors because they didn’t realize all the work they did before they let them go!

      1. Angora*

        I worked with someone in the university that we hired on … her desk was the cleanest thing. Looked like she didn’t do a thing.

        She said that she suspected that clean desk made it look like she had nothing to do.

        1. Angora*

          hit submit too soon … that clean deck caused her to get laid off. They didn’t know the volume of work she did because they couldn’t see it.

  4. PK*

    I work for a company (let’s call it Company X) who, in addition to making their own products, also resells related products from many other companies (including Company Y). I enjoy being involved in the resselling aspect of the business, but I’ve come to realize that what I’d really like to do is work for Company Y and focus on making their products exclusively. I speak with managers there on a regular basis in my day to day duties with Company X. I saw a job listing come up on Company Y’s career site that I would love to apply for. In the past when I have applied to a position at Company Y, I never got a call and I’m wondering if I’ve been shooting myself in the foot by not contacting the managers I know at Company Y and letting them know I put in an application. I’ve not done that in the past because I wondered if I was inappropriately networking and taking advantage. The only way I know the managers at Company Y is because of my employment
    with Company X. I’m worried that Company Y might be upset, come to my managers and tell them I contacted them inappropriately. Is it okay to email a manager at Company Y and give them a heads up that I applied for a position in their department?

    1. PEBCAK*

      Reasonable managers are discreet about this sort of thing. Nobody wants to have a reputation for loose lips, because then they won’t get applications from the best candidates. So, yes, you can email Company Y.

      That said…it sounds like your current company is a customer of the company to which you applied? There *could* be reasons they wouldn’t want to rock the boat by hiring you, but again, there shouldn’t be personally negative repercussions; you might just get a response email that doesn’t say what you hope.

    2. ClaireS*

      If I were in your shoes, I’d try to find the manager that is a) the most discreet and b) closest to the hiring and reach out to them. While there may be some awkwardness, in my experience (which is in a bit of a niche industry) this sort of thing happens. If you’re a talented person, I bet your company would rather you go to their supplier than their competitor

      Good luck

      1. Angora*

        Agree with what you are saying about niche industry. Many fields are quite incestuous. CRO’s are like that. People move back and forth between some of the larger ones on a regular basis. Many times that’s the best way to move up. I’ll never forget being at a meeting after we merged with a larger CRO . This was a regional (southeast) meeting; and quite a few of the managers and executives had worked with each other at other CROs or with various pharmaceuticals.

  5. Ali*

    A midnight open thread…been waiting a while for this. Yay!!

    I’m unfortunately feeling a little down about work right now. Like I said last week, I did not get the position I was hoping for within my company. I e-mailed one of the managers I work closely with (my normal boss is out of action still, but he does know I didn’t get the job) to see if we could talk about what needed to be done from here and what my chances were of moving up. I don’t want to rehash the whole e-mail because it was long and I don’t want to risk giving away too much about myself, but he said he can promise me professional development. That’s good, but he also added he doesn’t know if my promotion will be with Current Company or if it will come elsewhere. I took that as a sign that I should probably job search, as not a lot of jobs open within my company, and right now, the openings don’t really reflect my skills/expertise. I don’t want to apply for them just to apply.

    I feel torn on what to do. I appreciate my manager telling me that he can’t guarantee a promotion because I value honesty, even if it’s tough to hear. And he’s saying he can continue working with me because I have a good base of experience, which is great. I’m all for developing and improving. But at the same time, I’ve already been at this company for four years and I’m admittedly starting to look for a change. I don’t see much point in not looking for outside opportunities and choosing to cross my fingers that something will come up.

    I also feel a bit bad for thinking about job searching after my manager said he’d help me get better. Also, part why I’ve been with this company so long is because they’ve been a good place to work, the culture is very friendly and laid-back and I have always had encouraging supervisors. I just doubt I’m a fit anymore, and the whole comment about maybe an opportunity coming elsewhere makes me think I should be searching.

    Thoughts?

    1. HarryV*

      I’m a firm believer in that if you want something, you need to take the initiative to act on it and not wait for someone else. There is nothing to feel bad about it.

    2. CLM*

      You have no reason to feel guilty. It’s nice that your manager said he’d help you get “better”, but if it’s not a good fit anymore and there’s no room for advancement, you are much better off looking for something new and challenging. The good news is that since you have this job, you can take your time to look for something you really like. I say go for it, and to take the opportunity to brush up on your skills as well. Is there a skill you’ve always wanted to learn, that someone else at your current company knows how to do, or does as part of their job duties? Clear it with your manager and see if it’s okay to help them out a couple hours a week. Frame it as part of how your manager can help you get “better” — that you are interested in adding new skills to make yourself a better employee.

      My two cents, anyway. :D

      1. Ali*

        I’m actually picking up some new skills at an internship I’m doing away from work/outside of my shift time. As far as stuff at work, I was offered the chance to help out with something, but we have to make sure we have the resources to put a plan in place.

        I’m considering leaving my company for other reasons as well, but being told they don’t know if they can promote me was the kicker.

    3. Diane*

      Often you have to move to another organization to get a promotion or a different kind of experience than your current one offers, but you can than go back. But having a great culture and support for growth is hugely important. Look, and if an opportunity comes up that helps you get closer to your goals, weigh it along with all of the other things that are important to you in work (salary, professional development, good management, commute, etc.).

    4. nep*

      No need to feel bad about looking elsewhere.
      You might find a great fit somewhere — in a place that also has a friendly culture and where you thrive. I reckon it can only be a good thing to seek and put yourself out there. You can’t know what’s possible till you do.
      All the best to you.

    5. Raven28*

      This is almost the exact position I was in at the beginning of the year. I have been with my company for a few years and have worked my way through three positions, all promotions, but the final move was out of my field, HR, simply to have a promotion. Not many opportunities open up in HR in my organization. Trust me, I looked internationally and was willing to relocate. I can tell you the last few months in this non-related field have been miserable. Yes, it was a promotion with a 10% raise, but it is not the direction for my career. I took it just to move on, because I had outgrown my other position. My boss, much like yours offered to help in any way with career development and preparing me for a new position internally or externally.

      I said all that to say, I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU START A JOB SEARCH NOW. I agree with previous post that you have to take initiative and control of your career development. During my job search I got great feedback that has led to me starting a new position in my field next month. Sometimes we don’t realize that we have a lot more to offer than our current employer utilizes, even if well intentioned. Also, seeing what other companies have to offer while being content is the best time to job search. I was in no hurry to move on so that made negotiations and turning down things that were not a good fit 10 times easier. When you are not pressed to move on a job search is much less stressful and one sided.

      I felt guilty for a split second because I have an excellent relationship with my manager and colleagues. The company is going through a tough transition right now, I am one of a few that have been in my department more than six months and I have literally been in every one of the roles in this department so they rely heavily on my presence and knowledge and blah, blah, blah. Guess what, none of that helps my career advance or gives me the professional satisfaction.

      I have not read your previous posts, but I strongly encourage you to remember that employment is a business transaction. I thought there would be an issue when I resigned, but the same manager who offered help was actually happy for me. If your manager is a good one they will be also, especially if they see potential, and you will forever have an excellent reference and connection.

      1. Harper*

        Just to add to the manager being happy for you, I had the same experience. I was really worried that the director of a job I left for lack of advancement (ever) possibilities would be really upset with me because he had done a lot for me and the position while I was there, however, when I told him, he told me he was actually really relieved because he had worried that I would end up stuck there forever. He was happy that I was going to be able to move on.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I would take every bit of help I could find, UNTIL something proved not to be working out. For example: I would take the boss’ mentoring until it proved to be a bad idea. I would keep searching for jobs in arena X until that panned out to be a poor plan. The key is when you drop one plan pick up a new plan.
      I can honestly tell you for every 10 things I try, 1 actually works into something that is of some help. Looking at it that way, makes me want to run out and do 9 more things because that workable idea is in the next batch somewhere. It’s just a matter of finding it.

      Yeah, make sure you get rest each night….

      As far as the guilt, tell yourself that no one is feeling guilty about not promoting you. Don’t dwell on that line of thought, it will not help you.

    7. Angora*

      Dear Ali:
      Feel for you been there. At the 3 – 4 years mark I find that I will stagnate in a job, if my responsibilities are not increased. In many times it can hurt ones performance if you are bored or not challenged.

      Many times when a job description is posted; there are hidden qualifications that one is unaware of. A huge one is that they want an external client but cannot not freeze out current employees from the application process. That they want to hire someone outside because they want someone that has no ties with the current staff and are unaware of the cliques, office politics, etc. I thing this is more true of individuals being hired in executive and managerial positions.

      I had a boss that would hire student wives that had no background in higher education; and would be leaving once the husband completed the graduate program.

      I know how you are feeling. Been there and done that. It’s so disheartening to put all this effort working for an employer, giving it your all only to feel stuck. If you are extremely good at what you are currently doing they may fear the disruption of finding your replacement.

      I recommend that you start job searching but take your time. Find something that will challenge you and that will allow you to grow with. Best of luck

  6. Chuchundra*

    Anyone have a co-worker whose e-mail inbox is like the Bermuda Triangle? I’ve spent the last couple months sending request after request to this guy and he almost never even responds. I did what I could to work around it, but my project now needs resources that only he can provide.

    Finally I called my boss this week and asked him what to do and he sent the e-mail request and cc’ed the co-worker’s boss, the co-worker’s boss’s boss and most everyone else on our team because they need stuff from him too. The only thing we were missing was pitchforks and torches.

    Finally got an e-mail back on Wednesday, but still no actual resource delivered unto me. yet.

    1. HarryV*

      At the 3rd reminder, you should’ve cc’d his boss and if necessary, cc you own boss. It is unfortunate you had to have your boss get involved.

    2. Jen RO*

      My team lead is like this. The only way to get a hold of him is to contact him on IM, and he might ignore you then too. (He was laid off – not for performance issues – and he will be leaving in a few months, at least this situation has a firm end date.)

    3. Christine*

      What are you trying aside from email? Have you addressed this with him personally? Tried making your requests via phone or in person?

      I’m swamped at work. I try to stay on top of email, but sometimes it takes me a day or two to respond to something that doesn’t involve something being figuratively on fire. It frustrates me to see 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc requests in one of my low-priority inboxes where the person is obviously getting increasingly frustrated but yet has not bothered to reach out any other way.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        Why not take 2 minutes and reply, so that the requester isn’t left wondering about the black hole they just chucked their email into? Or set an autoreply on the “low priority” box advising people that if they haven’t heard back from you by X to follow up by phone/text/IM/whatever? Direct people to take the actions you want instead of being annoyed that they can’t read your mind.

      2. LQ*

        Why would a phone call or in person visit be less intrusive? (I assume that’s why you want them to reach out in another way.) The thing about email is that it seems like one of the least intrusive ways of requesting something. I guess when I have something I get behind on and people DO reach out in another way (in person, phone call, or worse, contacting my boss because it took all of 2 days for a low priority thing) I get very frustrated. I try to be on top of that 15 second, response saying I’ve seen it so that doesn’t happen.

        4 requests in 2 days seems really absurd too so I’d guess that person either doesn’t know it is a low-priority (or it isn’t to them) or they just want – “rcvd – 72 hr response time”.

      3. LBK*

        This is so odd to me, because if I’m swamped, the last thing I want is someone calling me or showing up at my desk. Send me an email and let me prioritize it myself. If they call you, they’ve decided that their issue is a high priority for you, because presumably you’re going to pick up and answer their question right away while you may be working on something more important.

        I do think that a 2 day email turnaround time is a bit much, though, depending on what kind of inquiries these are. I save myself a lot of time by just giving a quick “Thanks, I’ll take care of this!” response and then actually taking care of it when it fits into my schedule. Your coworker doesn’t need to know that you didn’t actually save and submit those files until 6 hours after you replied to their email.

      4. Chuchundra*

        I’ve tried calling in the past. The problem is that I work shift and so I’m not always around during working hours. E-mail is the best method of contact for me.

        The other issue is that this person is not often at his desk. He’s usually in the server room or somewhere else in the building. So an impromptu desk visit is unlikely to result in anything besides wasted time for me.

        1. Angora*

          For individuals that do not respond to e-mails and never in their cubicle . Part of the reason they do not respond … especially in IT is because they are working on something, etc. His lack of response could be because there is not enough staff to meet everyone’s needs and he has to prioritize.

          But I have also found out ….. if I cannot get a response via telephone and e-mail; and cannot locate the individual in person …. a bright colored sticky note on their door or monitor works wonder. If it takes only a couple of words “short request” …try that method. I have done that before; than have had the “IT” person show up in my office with the sticky note in their hand.

    4. Chloe Silverado*

      I have a co-worker who often has 3,000+ unread emails in his inbox. He basically just checks emails from clients, unless you happen to catch him on a day when he feels like being responsive. If you left it up to him, it would take weeks to get back to internal emails. Our manager is aware of this but has opted to not address it.

      I’m someone who prefers to work through email so I find this annoying, but I’ve come to realize that he’s not likely to change. If I need a timely response, I send the email and then call or walk over to his desk to let him know that I sent him something and need him to respond via email with a report/document/etc. If I need him to review something, I print it out and bring it to him in person. I also send him a lot of emails that say things like “Per our conversation just now, I am moving forward with this aspect of project X, but you will be sending me the Y report before the end of the day so I can complete it,” and cc our manager so if he conveniently forgets to send the report (this happens a lot), our manager knows I was on top of it.

      1. Anonymous*

        This used to be my manager (and I am an email person too!). What you described here was also the approach I used with him. Making the best of a bad situation.

    5. ClaireS*

      When this happens to me I get on the phone and have the “how’s the best way for me to make these requests of you? Do you need more information? Do you prefer a different communication method? Phone? Fax? Carrier pigeon?”

      If I still get no response after that, I go up the chain.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Yes, this exactly.

        I work with a few people who receive a horrifying amount of email on a daily basis. After talking to them, they’ve given me tips on how to make sure I can get a response. Some examples include: phone call right after sending the email, in-person notification that important email is coming, and specific email subject tags like “Urgent: xyz” or “Action Needed: xyz.”

    6. C Average*

      This might be a ridiculous question, but is it clear in the emails that you are asking him for something, and what that something is?

      I’m someone who gets a ton of emails, and a lot of them are either FYI or just because I’m part of a list. If you very clearly ask me to do something, I’ll do it. If you ask me a question, I’ll answer it.

      On big projects, sometimes people on email threads will say stuff like “we need to complete a draft version of the site content, including URLs” and, because it doesn’t sound like it’s in my wheelhouse, I let it slide. But if they say, “C, I need your team to deliver the rough drafts by end of month, including the URLs for the new site,” I know what needs to be done and can respond appropriately.

      The non-ask ask is a pet peeve of mine. Grrrr.

      1. Scott M*

        +1 on this. At our company, we run so lean that everyone wears multiple hats. Since it’s so hard to figure out exactly who is in charge of what, large numbers of people get ‘spammed’ on certain issues. The hope is that one of them will be the person to fix it, but there is no actual request made.

      3. Eden*

        +1 on the “non-ask ask.” I think of this as very passive aggressive. I have been in too many situations where there was no action item, yet somehow I was supposed to divine that “we need to” (directed at multiple people) meant “I want YOU to.”

        My personal favorite email issue is when I present options: Do you want to do A, or B? And the answer comes back, Yes.

        Aaauuugh.

    7. Harper*

      My last boss was like this. There were times when he would email back immediately and then others where you would hear NOTHING for weeks. When he was in a responsive mood, he would actually start answering all those old, neglected emails.

    8. A Jane*

      Ugh, that’s super annoying. I learned I had to suck it up and talk in-person for some individuals. I also had to approach it as (I’m not bugging them, it’s just the only way to get through to them because email is clearly not working).

      If I needed something in writing, I also made sure to say, hey, I need you to respond to the email from x date (or the one at the top of your inbox from me). I literally had to watch a guy respond to my email while standing over him.

    9. Joey*

      Obviously there’s no excuse, but have you tried calling him or going to his office to speak to him when he doesn’t respond to emails. Some people prefer those lines of communication. Or sometimes the only real way to get what you need is to do whatever it takes to track people down. Sometimes these things can be addressed and sometimes they won’t and you’ll need to find a way to get what you need regardless.

    10. Jamie*

      When this just starts or is inconsistent I speak with the person and ask why they aren’t responding to my emails. If it continues to where it’s impeding my work, and it’s continual (where you know sending an email is the same as doing nothing – just chucking it into the abyss) I’ll just start asking their boss for what I need.

      If I have a deadline for the numbers I need from Wakeen and he never responds – and they are due. I’ll email his boss asking for my numbers and explaining the deadline – because by the time it’s at this point all official requests I’m ccing the boss on anyway.

      Absolute last resort and I bend over backwards not to have to – but I need what I need and if Wakeen isn’t getting it to me his boss Jane will have to.

      Important part of this is once they change and start responding I drop the boss off the emails.

      Someone came to me about this recently and said I didn’t need to cc his boss because he wants to take care of things himself. I said it’s the only way I get a response – he denied that. I showed him 3 separate issues where I’d emailed him 4-6 times with no response, but as soon as the boss was cced I had a response within the hour. In showing him I told him he taught me that it was the only way to get a response from him.

      He seemed kind of embarrassed and surprised – but I gave him another chance and dropped the boss and he’s been responsive since – so there’s that.

    11. Jules*

      I would email, after the 2nd email, IM. If no answer, I would drop by and ask. I can be pretty persistant.

  7. Joy*

    Anybody with experience in BigLaw (as attorneys or staff) have advice for someone who’s starting as an associate attorney in a few months? This is not at a NYC, Boston, D.C. or L.A. firm – think secondary market, so the pace isn’t quite as frantic, but I’m still expecting long hours, high stress levels, etc.

    What do you wish you’d known (or what do you wish the junior attorneys you worked with had known)?

    1. Legal Assistant*

      Hmm. Not sure how helpful this will be to you but:

      Don’t be afraid to rely on your assistant! A lot of junior attorneys are a bit timid about spreading the resources and it makes everyone’s life difficult in the long run, but especially yours! Don’t add the extra stress – if we can do it, we WANT to do it for you. If you had an assistant in articling, I’m sure you’ve learned some tips and tricks but we really do want you to succeed and we want to help, it’s our job! :) A good assistant can help greatly with the high stress level. Or so I’ve been told!

      1. Joy*

        Thanks for this reassurance! I had a wonderful assistant last summer when I worked for the firm I’m joining, and although I’m unlikely to be assigned to her again, everyone else I met seemed very welcoming. I have read a lot about how recently, new lawyers feel that they should/can just do everything, and I understand that impulse, but I’m hoping I can get into a good groove with whoever I’m assigned to and learn what to delegate.

    2. Hermione*

      This is going to sound like one of those “duh” bits of advice, but be friendly with ALL of the support staff, or if you absolutely cannot, be sure you have an assistant who is. I was an assistant to this hotshot junior associate for two years, and the guy could not find it in him to be nice to anybody but our departmental support staff. He was snappy with the mailroom guys, dismissive to our receptionist, gave eye-rolls when other departments’ staff would greet him in the halls. Naturally, this constantly blew up in his face because there were times when he needed to rely on other staff (especially the copy/mailroom guys) , but nobody prioritizes the rude guy upstairs when there are other, friendlier attorneys who also need help.

      This one time, we were going in on an appeal, and so needed to submit to the court a bunch of copies of our appellate brief (and of course were running late). He had picked up the printed/bound copies directly from the copy room on his way out the door to file them, and when he returned, I started updating our pleading books with the brief + other court docs, when I noticed that the moron hadn’t signed the brief, or the other twelve or so copies he had just filed with the court.

      Of course, the copy guy had noticed, but wasn’t about to get chewed out for pointing out his mistake…

      1. Rana*

        ::wince::

        I’ve always held that a good rule of thumb is to be nice to service and support staff, and if you find people who are both competent and friendly, treat them like gold. Thank you for the great illustration of why!

      2. Joy*

        I’ve heard horror stories like this, but I just can’t imagine treating people this way. Maybe it’s because I grew up in a lower middle-class (bordering on upper lower-class) home, with parents who *were* the staff that were sometimes treated rudely. It’s always good to hear that friendliness opens doors, but it’s sad that it’s not a basic minimum operating standard for everyone.

      3. KrisL*

        Be nice to people. People who are jerks to people who they think aren’t “important” are jerks. People will figure this out eventually.

        Also, the people who sometimes seem not “important” can be a lot more important than you think.

        1. Angora*

          Be nice to the support staff … they can so burn you if you are rude to them, etc.

          I knew someone where his XO (military) was dismissive to him. He prepared a memo with a key statement worded incorrectly. This is a guy that was an excellent Yeoman … his XO signed it without looking at it. Got his butt fried on that one; but he was quite aware that he had been set up.

          This is one that so didn’t work for me … do not scream, belittle and cuss at your administrative staff … than turn around and say you are sorry or give them a $5 gift card to Starbucks after the fact. I had a faculty member that treated me like (*&^ but that the “I’m sorry” and two gift card negated the poor behavior. This happened 1 – 3 times a month … it was a cycle.

          Another thing … some assistants like flowers, etc for admin professional day or their birthday etc … I don’t I cannot eat flowers. Give me a $25 – 50 gift card to a nice restaurant or store you have heard me mention. And if you’re a mean boss … taking me to lunch on those days doesn’t work because I hate working for you and your forced companionship at lunch isn’t my thing.

          I have seen people pee in their bosses plants, leave underwear crammed between the cushions in CO’s office, spit in coffee cups and pots when they have been abused. Admin and support person may feel forced to take a lot of abuse to keep a job to support themselves and their families. But if anyone lawyer, manager, etc …If they have mistreated their staff … they may find themselves unknowing drinking spit in their coffee.

          The way I look at it; if you find yourself considering and/or have resorted to passive aggressive behaviors’ to payback an employer, supervisor or co-worker. It’s time to go to HR or just find another job. Actions like that will bite you in the rump. It’s an unhealthy dynamitic when you have so much rage and feel powerless to change the situation.

          1. Angora*

            Forgot to add … one my father’s clients (he designed software for small businesses) treated his legal secretary like dirt. When she quit she wiped out all of his accounting records including the back-up.

    3. D*

      Have you read The Curmudgeon’s Guide to Practicing Law or Swimming Lessons for Baby Sharks or something similar? If not, I highly recommend any of those books. Their advice is very, very good.

      Make sure you do a great job, every time, because you will mess up one day, and you want to have some credibility built up.

      Make friends with everyone you can.

      Figure out a way to do what you want. If there’s something you hate doing or someone you hate working for, be proactive about filling your time with enough other things that you won’t have time for the stuff you don’t want to do. Obviously don’t say, “I want work from you because I don’t want to do anymore for Partner X.” But figure out a way to make sure your own career is progressing and you’re developing skills in the practice area you want.

      1. Joy*

        Yes, I liked the Curmudgeon’s Guide, and I’m about to start Humor in the Salt Mines, which was given to me by a friend at the firm.

        I’ve gotten a lot of advice about how to get the work I want, but yours is the first to address avoiding the work I hate! I’ll keep that in mind :-)

    4. Gwydion*

      First, congratulations! That’s a great accomplishment in this market!
      I completely agree with the other replies. Remember that your administrative professionals are just that- professionals! You want to treat them with respect and deference the way you’d trust a specialist you’ve hired for an area you don’t have experience in. Especially if you have a paralegal or legal assistant who’s done this for a long time, they’re an amazing resource and want to help you!

      If your firm is large enough to have a library and its own librarian, don’t hesitate to contact them when you’re stuck. Why spend a week researching Guam Teapot Law empty-handed only to find out later that the librarian has a copy of the go-to treatise sitting on her desk. If you’re smaller than that, remember that your law school has librarians too! Most law school reference librarian staff are more than happy to assist alumni as well. Some states also have trial court libraries with full time librarians that may be able to help you as well.

      Lastly, clarify everything with your partners and senior associates. Clarify what they want, when they want it, and what form they want it in. When they tell you to find out whether the statute of limitations is up on an employment claim, repeat that back with clarification. “Right, so I’ll research the statute of limitations on a MYSTATE wage claim. Would you prefer me to write up a memo on that, or just a quick e-mail? I should be able to get that to you by tomorrow afternoon: does that fit your timeline?” A simple quick recap at the beginning of the assignment will save you so much time and shield you at least a little bit from partner frustration.

      Good luck!

      1. Joy*

        Thanks for the tips! My firm had a library as of last summer, but there was some talk of making it all digital (although I think the idea was that the librarians would stay on staff regardless). It was a god-send several times when I had research-heavy assignments.

        And OMG yes, the repeating back! I thought I had a good handle on this last summer, only to find that one partner in particular had a very different idea of the deadline for the project than the one I’d left our meeting with. I plan to master the art of reiterating, confirming via email, etc. once I’m back. And to figure out which attorneys say “We need this by Y” and secretly mean “I’ll think you’re slacker if you don’t actually turn it in by X!”

        1. Gwydion*

          I’ve never understood why people want to hide the ball like that. Maybe they feel they need to torture their associates the way they were tortured years ago?

          1. Joy*

            Ugh, I don’t know, maybe. The job market is hard enough without more torture once you’re working.

            The partner I had this experience with actually told HR in his written review that he didn’t think I would have finished the project at all if he hadn’t checked in with me to nag me about it! Mind you, this was three weeks before it was due, and I’d sent him an email the week before, checking in and letting him know that I had started it and was finding the associate he’d referred me to very helpful. And after he nagged me, I told him I could have it done a week early and then actually got it in a day earlier than that!

            I completed 30+ other assignments last summer and was never late, made a point to turn most in at least a few days early (and never on Friday afternoons), and HR knew that this guy was a jerk and later told me as much. So I doubt it impacted their decision to give me an offer, but it was incredibly stressful getting a negative review at the time – I was very glad for a private office with a door, because that was the one day I cried at work!

            I’d much rather have been warned about him and then just planned to shave two or three weeks off the deadline he gave me.

      1. Joy*

        Thanks, I’ll do that! I’ve read a couple of posts in the past and keep meaning to bookmark it.

    6. CA Anon*

      Remember that printing/copying/scanning/binding things takes time! I once had an associate give me a 10 binder project at 9am that he needed for a noon meeting with the partners. Needless to say, he didn’t get them…

  8. HarryV*

    I have a work from home job where it pays very well and it is extremely flexible. My boss trusts in me and I get my work done and done well. However, I am starting to feel like I am wasting my potential and that I can and should be making at least $30-40k more. How much is working from home worth to you? If you were in my situation, how much at the minimum would you need a pay increase to make you go back full time into the office?

    1. Jen RO*

      I wouldn’t work from home again. I did it for a few years, but I suck at time management, so I watched TV all morning then worked all evening (when everyone went out etc). It was also very lonely. I work in a dreaded open space now but I prefer it to my empty living room.

    2. NW Cat Lady*

      I had a work-from-home situation that I absolutely ADORED. Unfortunately, there were cuts, and I was laid off.

      To me, it wasn’t the money that would have made me want to go back to an office. And it wasn’t the lack of socialization or time management (as Jen RO said). It would have been dissatisfaction with the job and/or company I was with. My previous job was absolutely toxic, and no amount of money can make up for having to pop Xanax like candy.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I read that as “unfortunately, there were cats” and was expecting to see why the cats interfered with doing your job. Which they would, unless your job was petting and feeding them.

    3. Stephanie*

      My mom works for home full-time. She told me it’d have to be a pretty significant increase (or a threat of no job) to have to go into the office. She likes having the personal flexibility (my younger sister’s disabled) and not having to buy work clothes or commute downtown. She said the line between work and home can get blurred (like it’s easy just to hop on to the computer at 10 pm just to finish one more thing and have your boss expect that), but that that inconvenience is worth the benefits.

      I suppose figure out what’s important to you work-wise to assess if it’s worth giving up the home office.

    4. Dan*

      I sort of get what you’re asking (you want other people’s thought processes to help you make a decision) but the way you phrased the question, the true answer is it’s a personal choice that nobody can make for you.

      Personally, I like the flexibility of working from home when necessary, but really don’t want the isolation that comes with living alone and working from home full time.

      Money wise, you’ve given us no reference to work from. If you’re making a half mil, you’re talking a small percentage increase. If you’re making $40k, you’re talking about double. Realistically though, you’re talking about a huge chunk of change, and am seriously wondering why you’re asking random strangers on the internet if they’re sane enough to leave $30k on the table for the convenience of working from home.

      I’d take that kind of cash and work in an office without thinking about it for more than three seconds.

      1. Ali*

        I work from home now and am starting to get tired of it. It can be really isolating when others who live near the offices are getting to go to company social events and you’re stuck covering for them while they go party. This happened to me last week when there was a “mandatory” social event for the employees near the main office and I had to cover hours so all those people could go have fun. It made me kind of upset. I’d love to save money to live near the company’s secondary office (it’s an easier move for me to make), but it’s going to take a lot of time, if I ever get there due to the high COL in this city and how much money is needed to move in the first place.

        Everyone always tells me how good I have it working from home, but I miss the social aspect.

    5. ali*

      I have the best of both worlds – I can work from home as much as I want, but there is also a local office I have a cube at and that I can go in as much as I want. Most weeks I choose 3 days at home and 2 in the office, but there are some weeks I go 3 in and 2 home (and once a quarter I’ll go in for a whole week because my boss, who is remote, will be onsite).

      I love it. I absolutely would not trade it for more money. I’ve had higher paying jobs, both where I’ve had to go in and where I could work from home. The stress associated with the higher pay and usually awful commute just isn’t worth it to me.

      I plan on staying in this job as long as they’ll have me (which may not be too long…I’ve already been laid off and rehired once, which is a long story)

    6. Molly*

      My current job lets me work from home 2 days a week, and I find that’s a really good mix for me. It would need to be a significant increase in pay for me to give those two days up. Like, really, really significant. I’m comfortable now – I have what I want and need, and I’m able to save for a decent retirement.

      If I were behind on retirement savings, then I might prioritize the money over the flexibility.

  9. Shell*

    I’m reasonably sure I didn’t get the job I applied to. I’m pretty disappointed even though I was unsure about applying in the first place; I convinced myself that it’d be a great step in my career in the weeks since my application.

    Sigh.

    Thinking of asking my manager from my Ex-job if he’d be willing to let me pick his brain…he changed positions at my old company and now hires for the position that I applied to (although I applied to their competitor). The last time I saw Ex-Manager he was reasonably friendly. Not sure if he’d do me this favour though…we parted on rather awkward terms. (A long struggle with a workplace injury and some mishandling on all sides.)

    I guess I just need some encouragement. It’s been a tough few weeks.

    1. CLM*

      Sorry to hear that Shell, that’s rough. I don’t think there’s any harm in shooting your ex-manager a brief email explaining that you are job searching, applying for X type of jobs, and wanted to ask him a few brief questions if he has the time. Worst that happens is he says no, and you are in the exact same place you started.

    2. Harper*

      I was recently in this position. It sucks. But I’m convinced something will come along, for both of us! :D

  10. CLM*

    Anyone have tips on how to get hired for full-time remote work as an employee? I live in the Midwest, and it seems like all the best companies are … not where I live. (And yes, I do know that getting that kind of job is a long shot at best, but that doesn’t mean it’s completely impossible). I work in editorial, so I’d be interested in a midlevel editor or website content manager type position. Ideas, thoughts, skills I should brush up on or get training in? Any advice appreciated. Thanks. :)

    1. robot chick*

      What’s your stance on general webmaster-ish duties? I’d brush up on stuff like html, xml and stylesheets (css and xls) – if you’re more or less new to this, w3schools.com is your friend.
      And if that’s not out of your comfort zone, you might even want to take a peek at their tutorials for javascript, php or asp, so you can make your web pages not only pretty but interactive ^^

      Good luck!

    2. BRR*

      Look at positions that you might be interested in and what they’re asking for. So if one is looking for a midlevel editor but they want you to live in New York to do it, you could still see what skills they’re asking for.

  11. Chloe*

    It’s been 2 years since I graduated and in a few days it’ll have been a year since I was employed and I’ve just about given up. I don’t know what else to do. I decided to go back to school to pursue a degree in computer science (my B.A is in Anthropology) but I still need a job. I’m at my wits end with it all!

    Are there any long term unemployed recent grads out there? How are you coping? Any advice?

    1. Coco*

      I’m a BA Anthro grad too, graduated last year and am now in a MA TESOL program. I had so many friends who were still unemployed years after graduating so you’re not alone!!

      My breakthrough happened when I did some volunteering for a local community college in ESL classes. The instructor said I was great at it and if I got my Master’s she would help me get employed at the college!! (MATESOL is a prereq for almost all ESL instructor jobs.) I’m not advising you to go to grad school necessarily, but volunteering might be your “in.”

      Good luck!

      1. Chloe*

        That’s awesome how things worked out for you! I definitely want to further my education as well but I know it won’t be in Anthropology. I love the discipline but I definitely want to go the technology route so that’ll require some more education. I’m taking classes at my local Community College. I’m aiming for a Master’s in Computer Science but if I don’t get into the program I’ll pursue a Second Bachelor’s in Engineering (computer science). The master’s program is cool because you don’t need a CS background. It’s the only program I’ve found that is as accessible for me. The plan is to apply next year. I’ll definitely be joining some clubs and maybe they can link me up with some volunteering opportunities out in the area because I haven’t had much luck. I volunteered with a women’s shelter in the area for a short while but all they had me doing was stuffing envelopes. Needless to say, it didn’t work out.lol

    2. JayDee*

      You might also want to look into the Americorp program (assuming you are in the US). The stipend isn’t crazy high, but the fringe benefits are good (like student loan deferment) and it can be a great way to get experience in a nonprofit or government agency that might turn into a job after your term of service is up or might lead you into a specific graduate program or career path.

      1. Stephanie*

        Minor point: you aren’t allowed to have outside employment during AmeriCorps, so just make sure you really can live on the stipend.

          1. Stephanie*

            Ah, got it. It must have been a VISTA position then. They were very upfront about the stipend being $900/mo and that you weren’t allowed to have secondary work.

        2. Office Mercenary*

          On the plus side, AmeriCops income doesn’t count toward EBT eligibility; i.e., you’re eligible for food stamps unless you earn more than, say, $908/month in outside income. (That was the cutoff for my state, yours may vary.) In my case, that was an extra $200/month, which is a lot when your paycheck is only $900.

      2. Dan*

        Minor point #2:

        I don’t consider student loan deferment to be a fringe benefit, unless the government is picking up the interest tab on subsidized loans.

        I went several years without making ANY payments on my undergraduate student loans (kept all the paperwork straight so it was legit) but the amount of interest that capitalized was ungodly, like $15k. I honestly regret that part now.

        Besides, for loans under the stafford program, you have ridiculous amounts of time (like 8 years) between various deferment and forbearance options.

      3. Anonsie*

        My word of caution on this is to only do it if the work you can get is something you actually want to do– don’t do it just to do anything, and don’t do it expecting to get a job from it.

    3. Beebs*

      Long term unemployed here, hundreds of applications later, definitely at my wits end right there with you.

      I see an employment counsellor and a personal therapist, they both help me put things into perspective. I have been so focused on things I can control, and as a side effect of that have internalized a lot of this in hopes that it is something I can fix/change within myself. Unfortunately, this is just part of the current climate. I have met many other people in the same boat, highly qualified, brilliant people who are struggling to find work – this has helped me realize it’s not personal. I am learning to accept that there may not be a ‘reason’ why I am in this situation, and while this all helps at the end of the day none of it brings me closer to employment which is a bit of a necessity.

      The other thing I can say is to stay focused and keep moving forward but also to take breaks and try to not feel guilty about taking some time for yourself and finding some joy throughout the week.

      1. Stephanie*

        This is really good advice that I second. I’ve just had to learn to accept what I can control and leave everything else up to fate. It’s tough.

      2. Chloe*

        Thanks Beebs! You’re right that this isn’t all in our control. It’s a hard idea to accept a lot of times but it’s true. I’m definitely trying to keep myself moving forward instead of dwelling. I did that for too long and made no progress. I’m currently on a break from sending job applications because I’m taking classes right now and plan to continue. After almost a year, I was just tired of not doing anything at all. At least now I’m using my mind and learning new things.

      3. Office Mercenary*

        I’ve been unemployed on and off since 2009. The biggest thing for me was finding hobbies to distract me from the state of my career. Hobbies like sewing, gardening, cooking, etc. can save you money and it helped me to think about my tangible skills, rather than the intangible skills that aren’t helping me get a real job.

    4. ali*

      I’m also a BA in Anthro, although mine is 15 years ago now. I was lucky that I had web/programming skills to get me a job (because back then that was all the rage and you didn’t need a silly college degree in “web” to get a job doing it). That has become my career. I don’t know how anyone with only a BA in Anthro can find a job. I’d always understood you needed at least a Master’s if not a PhD for anthro jobs. (I did go back and get a Master’s 10 years after I got my BA, but not in anything related to what I was doing or related to anthro).

      I don’t have advice for you, but I feel horrible for the graduates these days that remain unemployed for years after graduation. It definitely was not that way when I graduated. I wish you the best of luck!

      1. Becca*

        As someone with a “Silly college degree in web”….I found that my educational experiences were great. Maybe it wasn’t completely necessary in all areas of my job, but I’ve found that a lot of things I learned in school propelled me a lot further than when I was just tinkering around as a teenager.

        1. ali*

          Fair point. I just see so many interns these days who are getting those degrees and they really aren’t learning anything practical from them. The skills they are learning on the job are much more valuable to me as their manager than the things they are picking up in school. I likely would not hire someone with a degree in web if they did not have experience and a decent portfolio to go with it.

          I also was not just tinkering around as a teenager. While I did do my own webpages in 1993-94, after that I was employed by universities to do actually web development while I was getting my undergrad degree, so I was both mentored and given the opportunity to learn on large, complex projects.

      2. Chloe*

        Thanks for your comment.

        I was never really married to the field. Even when I chose this as my major, I knew I wasn’t going to pursue it further after graduating. I thought about law and public health for grad school but obviously didn’t pursue end up pursuing either. I wanted to take a break from school for a while to get work experience and figure out what I really wanted to do. Ever since I started looking for post-undergrad work, I’ve been looking outside of my field as well. There’s not much in my field anyways. Most of what I’ve applied for has been admin office jobs. I’m currently taking classes and hope to take some programming courses (darn pre-reqs) so hopefully after that I’ll be able to expand my job search.

    5. Molly*

      My BA is in Anthro. At the BA level, an Anthropology degree is just like any other liberal arts degree – it’s good for getting you entry-level business-type jobs that only require a degree, but that’s about it. You’re unlikely to find anything worth doing in the Anthropology field unless you get a master’s or a Ph.D (and even then it can be really tough).

      What kind of jobs are you applying for? If I were you, I’d be looking at coordinator-level positions in a business area you’re interested (like HR, Marketing, Sales, IT, whatever), basically one step up from assistant roles. If you’re looking for something anthro-focused, you’ll probably need a higher degree.

      1. Chloe*

        So interesting seeing so many Anthropology people here. Geez!lol I know the opportunities in the field are slim. I’ve always known I wasn’t going to be working in the field, at least long term. I plan on furthering my education on a different route though. I’m pursuing technology because the job opportunities are better.

        When I was applying for jobs I was mainly applying for office/administrative assistant/coordinator and program/project assistant/coordinator jobs. In almost a year I had a handful of in-person interviews, two handfuls of phone-interviews, wasted my time with staffing agencies, and was a top candidate for two positions.

    6. Anx*

      I graduated in 08 (walked in May, got my B.S. in December).

      I’ve been employed for 9 months since. It’s been…brutal. While in school I averaged 18 hrs/semester, two part time jobs, and other clubs, and a social life. While I did let my school work slip (I had a hard time prioritizing my own things over work type things), I was still pretty busy. And it was so, so, so much easier than being unemployed.

      I did have to go to therapy after a while for depression/anxiety (I went for something else, but it was pretty obvious the unemployment had taken it’s toll).

      Your value as a person is not contingent about what you can produce for another person (or whether or not you are paid for your labor). It’s hard to believe at times, but you have to keep finding ways to love yourself if you used to tie your value to your work.

      1. Chloe*

        Thanks for your comment. I can definitely relate to the depression and anxiety. I’ve struggled with these issues for as long as I can remember but post-undergrad, 5 months in a toxic workplace, and almost a year of unemployment have definitely exacerbated these issues. It’s work trying to stay positive but there is no other choice.

    7. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I was unemployed over a year, and that was coming right out of a master’s program!

      Coping was the hardest part for me, but the thing that helped me was– if you have the resources at all– to schedule fun events or purchases. I had a long list, so if I had a bad week, I’d order some little thing off Amazon that I’d wanted for a while or go out to a movie. It wasn’t great to spend the money I didn’t have, but it kept me sane to still have/do nice things from time to time.

      Good luck!

      1. Chloe*

        Thanks for your comment. I’ve bought so many books from Amazon since graduating.lol Since graduating I’ve found solace in reading for leisure. I don’t do it as often as I should, especially now since I’m taking classes again, but when I do I feel a little better. I’m still struggling to find a balance though. I spent so much of the last year and a portion of this year looking for work. I know now that wasn’t the best choice. I just wish everything didn’t cost money! It sucks not having any at your disposal. Makes enjoying life pretty hard.

    8. Stephanie*

      Not a recent grad, but long-term unemployed so I can empathize.

      I exercise. A lot. So at this point, I have very little money, but a serious right jab and roundhouse kick (I’ve been trying out MMA). That’s good for keeping my moods level and finding a healthy outlet. If there’s a physical activity you like, that’s really good for staving off the inevitable depressive feelings.

      1. Chloe*

        I recently got into weight training and I love it. My sister was nice enough to get me a gym membership for a few months. Sadly I sprained my foot pretty bad (fell down the stairs) so I haven’t been to the gym in a few weeks. I definitely feel more pent up aggression so I hope to get back in there next week.

    9. Anonsie*

      I’m an anthro BA as well and I did spend a long while unemployed after I graduated a few years ago. The key for me was moving somewhere that actually had the type of work I was qualified for available– I moved cross country and got a good job extremely quickly. Your region may be part of the issue here.

      From there, what did you do in college? Experience and interests? What type of work do you want? I did a lot of research as a student so (once I was somewhere with actual research institutions) it wasn’t tough for me to continue that work. Do you actually want to be a programmer or do you just think the degree will get you work?

      I get really frustrated when people blame your major for whether or not you have an easy time getting a job. People love to mock the anthro degree, but if I’d stuck with computer science (which was my original major in college) I’d be in exactly the same spot but even less happy because I didn’t *like* programming. I had opportunities to get experiences with my anth department that turned into work later, and there were no such opportunities for compsci where I was. It wouldn’t have been easier to find a job, I still would’ve needed to move to a hub and those places are competitive. Me with my not-really-liking-programming and no/crummy experience was not going to be competitive.

      For how to deal with the unemployment– I did not cope well. I’ve never been more angry than I was then. I always got upset when people told me “oh well, you’ll find something eventually” because it’s about the least helpful thing you can tell someone, but it’s true that it is temporary. It feels like it’ll be like this forever, but it won’t. Wait it out, see if you can do something to change your odds but don’t take drastic measures.

      1. Chloe*

        Thanks Anonsie.

        I can’t afford to move out of the area right now. I literally have no money and nowhere to go. And with the type of jobs I am “qualified” for, I can’t justify the inconvenience moving would require. So while I have thought about getting out of the midwest, which is still on the horizon, it won’t happen any time soon — unless I hit the lottery or something. Once I gain the skills I need in my desired field, I will feel more comfortable moving out of my area.

        I didn’t really do much in college as far as research goes, unfortunately. I was a RA for a professor but I didn’t really do much of anything, aside from marketing and making flyers. I worked in my school’s business office doing cashiering and office work.

        As for my interest in computer science, that has definitely been a process. I have always loved computers and considered pursing a technical degree but due to my hate for math I avoided anything that involved it. Silly but that’s my truth. I definitely regret that now because in doing that I limited my opportunities. I don’t know about being a programmer because there’s a lot you can do with a CS degree, but I know that it happens to be a field with plentiful opportunities. Right now I’m not on a path leading me anywhere so I guess I find solace in the pursuit of something different. I know it’ll enhance my options and that’s something I look forward to at this point in my life.

        1. Anonsie*

          Ah yeah, I should have said you could try job hunting in the places where the jobs exist, rather than just packing up first thing. That’s what I meant. But I also know that when I was job hunting and people said “try looking in other cities!” it made me really angry.

          I’m not sure what you mean by justifying the inconvenience, though. You mean, the jobs aren’t good enough to be worth relocating for? A starting job is pretty valuable, but I understand why someone wouldn’t want to up and relocate. If there aren’t opportunities where you are, though, what could you do to beef up your experience for a better job elsewhere? You don’t need to go into research, that’s just what I did, but if you have any experience with regulatory processes or expectations that can be a foot in the door.

          That was the same motivation I had for CS at first, too, and what I found is that the day to day was a very bad fit for me for the whole spectrum of work it could have turned in to. It’s mostly the human element, in my case. I liked working on my own projects and I like math just fine. Definitely look into it if you’re interested, but I would caution against thinking more education (and more debt and more time out of the work force) is the best solution just because it’s one you can start working on now and you just want to do something. Do it if you genuinely think you are suited to the actual everyday work.

          If it’s any encouragement, I hated math and did very poorly with it before college as well. In college I enjoyed it (ok, sometimes enjoyed it) and did very well, so you might have a better time with it than you think.

          Sorry I can’t really offer any better advice. It’s perfectly easy (and common now) to do everything right and still be in this situation, which is why I say it’s ok to ride it out and not try to jump ship just because it’s taking a while. I’m sorry you’re going through this, and I hope you get that light at the end really soon.

        2. Tex*

          I’ve heard places like Microsoft and Nokia (before they got bought out) hired anthropologists to see how people in developing markets used technology and how they could incorporate those insights into products for those specific markets. How one gets those jobs, I have no idea. But they do exist.

          Also, have you considered market research (which the above job falls under) – it can deal with a lot of psychology/culture/observational factors and your degree should be of use then. (Might need to brush up on statistics though.)

  12. Wander*

    I am more than a little nervous about work these days. Tensions have always been high between the team I’m on and another, but it’s always been kept behind the scenes. (That is, both teams know the other has issues with their work, but neither says anything to each other.) It escalated recently though with a complaint to a supervisor, and it’s ballooned since then.

    Even then, it wouldn’t be that bad, but there’s a department wide meeting coming up that includes the directors, and there’s always a free talk section. I’m sure it’s going to come up, and I’m pretty sure it’s going to get ugly. The other team shouldn’t know for sure who complained, but the logical guess is me. I am more than a little afraid that I’m going to be targeted. I have an over exaggerated nervous physical response to conflict, and if that happens, I will almost definitely break into a cold sweat and shake. No one at work knows about that, because it’s never come up, but I know from personal situations that it happens.

    I like my job a lot, and I was unemployed for a very long time before getting it. Even though I know that everything should be ok in the end (for multiple reasons), I’m worried about getting fired. It’s not a particularly rational fear (I hope), but it’s going to bother me until that meeting – and probably the whole week after that – is over.

    1. ClaireS*

      Oof! What an awful situation. My first thought is that this could be a good thing. It’s almost never productive for problems to fester under the surface unattended. But, your nervous response makes it an entirely different situation.

      Could you talk to your manager about it? Let her know about your concerns and that while you think it would be good if these things were dealt with, your concerned an uncontrollable physical response from you in going to make things more difficult. Maybe she can share some insight that will help put you at ease or at least better prepare you for what’s to come?

      This entirely hinges on having a reasonable boss, which from what I’ve learned ’round these parts, that’s not always the case.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Is there anyway you can step in before the chaos starts?
      I am not sure if I clearly understand your setting so this might not be a good idea: Can you express this concern to your boss and ask for tips?

      Also, practice calming breaths- inhale through your nostrils and push out slowly through a small opening made with your lips. Practice this BEFORE the crap starts. Then keep doing it when you can – such as in the restroom or lunch- look for opportunities.

    3. Harper*

      Do you mean one of the things you’re worried about is that the other team will think you are the one who complained and you’re not? I can totally relate to that. I have a particular hatred of being sort of backhandedly accused of something when there is no way to really set the record straight.

      For the other stuff, I can also sympathize and I know you already know this, but thinking about it a lot and getting it worked up in your head won’t help. It may be that the other team won’t even bring it up at the meeting and then you’ve worried about it for nothing! I would suggest maybe coming up with a couple of points you would want to make in case they do, writing them down, and then trying your best to forget the whole thing until it happens. I know that’s easier said than done!

  13. Poster formerly known as Jane Doe*

    Anybody have any thoughts on effectively leading/managing a project team without coming across as too strong or two weak? Background is that I am a young female in a male dominated industry. I got to where I am by being really good at my job, but people in my position are usually about ten years ahead of me.

    I have a strong personality, in that I’m not passive and open share what I think. I wouldn’t say that I am aggressive either, as I genuinely care about what others think, even if it’s my call at the end of the day.

    The challenges that I run into when I am soliciting thoughts and ideas from others is that they seem to think that I am asking them because I don’t already know anything, and they start explaining things to me like I don’t have a brain.

    Any thoughts on how I can be an effective leader without cracking the whip and becoming the one everyone hates?

    1. Coco*

      Not exactly work experience here, but I was the leader of a male-dominated competitive sport/game group (so kind of like a job–had goals we needed to meet and all that). You sound just like me!: young woman, strong personality, genuinely care about people’s opinions, skilled but not necessarily seen as knowledgeable.

      Transparency was important to people accepting me and respecting me as a leader. My calls were definitely questioned more often than those of the leaders before me (who were all men), but clearly laying out goals and procedures (to a reasonable extent, of course) and not getting defensive eventually convinced people I had everyone’s best interests in mind. And I think “showing your thinking” can often be a demonstration of competence. My 2c for what it’s worth :)

    2. Dan*

      I work for a woman who listens to the people on her team and doesn’t act like she knows everything. So that’s step one.

      Step two, to not get talked down to, be very specific about the feedback you’re soliciting. Tell them what you’ve already crossed off the list and why, and ask if there’s suggestions.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Ha, welcome to the first part of my life.

      Here’s some random thoughts for you.

      1) Gaining people’s respect is a process. Assume that this is going to happen over time and I think it works to act as if you have it in the beginning, meaning operating out of that confidence that you are respected.

      2) Never believe that people are treating you a certain way because of your age or gender, even if they are. Never internalize it, that just leads to defensiveness and defensiveness ***kills*** leadership. Sucks it right away from you, gone.

      3) Be patient . Maybe the big old strong men are trying to explain things to you slowly because they have a negative assumption about you or maybe, they just haven’t gotten to know you yet. If you are capable, this will be revealed over time anyway, so there’s no harm in being patient with people.

      4) Be open. I started a habit 25 years or more ago of making sure I use open body language in any group situation.

      5) If somebody seriously threatens you, actively undermines you, know in that moment that you can take them out later. I have been in situations where I could keep a calm exterior and a smile on my lips while I was thinking “dead man walking”. Take them out later. Later is always better than in the moment and it’s good have time to plan where to bury the body.

      2. Camellia*

        Also, do an awareness check of your speech patterns.

        Do you automatically say “Sorry” as a preface to speaking? As in, “Sorry to interrupt but I have a question”, or “Sorry, what was that again?” Or do you use a lot of fillers like “Um”? Sometimes as women we undermine ourselves and don’t even realize it.

        1. ClaireS*

          Up talk is another one I struggle with. Up talk- turning sentences into questions my a higher tone at the end.

        2. Jamie*

          Yep. My first boss schooled me in this quickly – told me to stop apologizing unless I was truly at fault and then do it once and move on.

          I meant sorry as in I’m sorry you’re having to deal with that, the general – gee that sucks kind of sorry – but he told me that the people we worked with would see it as a sign of weakness – blood in the water.

          Ditto “sorry?” when you didn’t catch something and need them to repeat themselves. What? Or can you clarify works just as well but it doesn’t put the blame directly on your inability to understand but could just as easily be they didn’t communicate it clearly.

          I was lucky that early on he rode me about those things – I see it in other women and I see the reaction and I do behind the scenes mentoring in this every time.

          1. hildi*

            When you do the behind the scenes mentoring, how do you approach it? Because it could be a touchy issue or it’s sometimes tricky to give unsolicited advice. So curious how you open up that conversation.

            I have been more aware of the Sorry issue, too, though I don’t think I did it extensively before. But when I want to tell someone I’m sorry for their predicament, I often turn to “I’m sorry to hear that.” I can pull that one off, though I don’t know if that’s seen the same as just plain, “sorry.”

            1. Jamie*

              I’ve never found it tricky – or maybe I’m not sensitive enough to have noticed.

              It’s always women, so I just talk to them privately and tell them I used to do the same and pass along the advice I was given. I don’t police them afterwards – but everyone without exception has appreciate the heads up.

              I work in a male dominated industry and there aren’t a lot of women in management – so we kind of look out for each other regarding the things that are specific to how we are socialized, or how we talk.

              Like I have had women cry in my office about stress at work and I’m fine with it – not in issues with me, but just venting kinda thing. But I make it clear that I’m fine with it and I’m a stress cryer but heads up we can’t do that here because of how it’s received so if you need a breather you can always duck into my office for a second – or the ladies room.

              I am one of the few women in executive management and I was stopped by the only woman who outranks me the first time she saw me cleaning up after a meeting. I had come from support previously and it was habit.

              She said even though she appreciated the sentiment it would hurt my authority since I was so new…then she proceeded to clean up. I asked and she said she established her authority so can now enjoy the privilege or throwing away everyone’s used napkins.

              :) We laughed.

              Set limits in the beginning and then you can break them later once you’ve earned respect and cemented your place.

              Kind of like I wouldn’t have worn a Hello Kitty lanyard in the plant until well after I had zero concern of being taken frivolously.

              Men do this too, btw. I know someone who was taken aside and told to dress more professionally than the others because it bothered this person that we’re as casual as we are. We’re a jeans/dockers and polo kinda place because we’re a factory the managers spend a lot of time around oil and grime.

              He did it even though it was bad advice, because everyone thinks its weird when someone goes all dry clean only to spend 8 hours a day in a hot and grimy environment…so you do have to vet the advice.

              1. hildi*

                #1). When my husband was going through a degree program, he was the only male of a small clas of 7 or 8. He was friendly to everyone and but of the women known to be obnoxious, a low performer, and someone that if you ended up allying with her would hurt your reputation. My husband was pleasantly oblivious to these things until one of the other women in his class, who was much more professional, a leader, respected, etc. pulled my husband aside and gave him a heads up as to how his own credibility was being hurt by being chummy with this other woman. So he pulled away from her and I think the advice helped. I may not have described that well (it sounds more like middle school cattiness, but it definitely wasn’t).

                #2). More importantly, I LOVE IT when women help other women. That doesn’t happen enough and I absolutely have the utmost respect for women that help other women.

                1. Jamie*

                  To be fair, I’d help anyone…I’ve just never seen a man with the apology thing.

                  And women can have a unique subset of issues that only we can help each other with so I totally get what you’re saying and I applaud the sentiment – but I just wanted to be clear I don’t help women at the exclusion of men…it’s just some things have never come up with them.

                  I know there is a lot about cattiness and backstabbing of women in the workplace against other women in particular – maybe I just got lucky but I haven’t seen that. Some are nicer than others – but no issues because of gender. Maybe in my industry we’re rare enough we can’t afford to turn on each other.

                2. hildi*

                  I totally agree about helping anyone regardless…and I can’t imagine anyone here would have thought you would help women at the exlusion of men!

                  Perhaps when I commented I had in mind the mommy wars of my generation and how it’s SO refreshing and heartwarming when a woman just supports and doesn’t judge another woman for her choices.

        3. AnonAnalyst*

          This is one I really struggle with. I’m still trying to change my speech pattern to eliminate the “sorry” prefacing, but much to my chagrin I feel really awkward not using it. It’s kind of disheartening how much I seem to think I have to apologize for requiring anyone’s attention for anything.

          1. Jamie*

            It absolutely takes time. At least for me speech patterns are one of the hardest habits to change.

            After a while the change sticks – but you need to be really conscious of it for a while.

      3. AVP*

        Love all of this, especially your last point. Other onlookers will respect you for staying calm and unflappable in the moment, and it gives you time to make a real plan for later.

      5. KrisL*

        I like what Wakeen’s said. Especially about being patient and “Never believe that people are treating you a certain way because of your age or gender, even if they are.”

        The way I figure, if I think someone’s being obnoxious because I’m female, I’m likely to stew about it and maybe expect other people to do that. If I figure someone’s being obnoxious because that person is just obnoxious, it’s easier for me to deal with. And really, people who are obnoxious based on your gender or age are obnoxious people anyway.

        Try to assume the best (but cover your back). You don’t know for sure why people are doing what they are, and if you think someone’s trying to be helpful by explaining something, it’s easier to reply and sound about right (“thanks, but I’ve already covered that”) than it is if you feel like the person is being a jerk.

        If you’re new, people might be trying to be helpful, since they don’t know what you do and don’t know. Some people might be condescending jerks. Some might just be trying to be helpful and trying a little too hard.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Try to preload your questions to show an indepth understanding of the situation you are inquiring about.

      Please don’t take this wrong: I tell myself when I am getting basic answers, that is because I did not frame my question well. (Yes, a little harsh on myself- but all I can change is ME.)
      Look at your questions. Will the questions bring the answer you want or is it easy to misconstrue what you are asking?

      The other thing that I have found helped me when people are telling me things I already know is that I deliberately look for some tidbit that I did not know. I challenge myself to find that tidbit. What this does is distract me from the fact that they appear to be talking down to me. Sometimes I find the tidbit sometimes I don’t. People do notice that I am listening.

      I could write a book about asking questions. If you decide that questions are a mix of art and science you will gain a lot of ground. There is an art in the way you ask (tone of voice, bodylanguage) and there is a science to how you structure the question(framing, breivity, level of awareness, etc).

      1. samaD*

        I would read that book about asking questions.
        I keep getting answers to things I haven’t asked and no answers to what I actually did ask.

    5. Us, Too*

      When it comes to project management, it’s nearly always a bad idea to just open up a discussion asking what people think of some generic problem or concept. You’ll end up with long, rambling dialogues with people endlessly admiring the problem.

      The secret to this is you don’t just ask what they think. You tell them what you already know (and what you think) and then ask them to give you feedback on that.

      Check out the difference between the below.

      Option 1: “Hey, Wakeen, how would you go about bringing the teapot handle breakage rate down from 25% to 10%?”

      Option 2: “Hey, Wakeen, I’ve been looking at the teapot handle breakage rate. Industry standard is 12%, but our rate is 25%. My initial research from the data in XYZ system shows that 2 major defects are contributing to nearly all the reports of breakage. I estimate that if we addressed those 5 issues, our breakage rate would go down to only 6% which would knock us out of the teapot handle quality ballpark. I’ve put together the following plan to address these 5 issues, but I’d really appreciate your feedback on this to help me work out any kinks or address things I may not have thought of.”

    6. Joey*

      You’re doing just fine. Once they see a track record of good decisions and outcomes they will have more respect. The only thing I would say is to make sure you tell them why you’re asking them- that you’re looking for better ways. It might also help your credibility if you’re asking about specific parts or pieces as opposed to a general solicitation.

    7. Jules*

      This is a good question that I struggle with and this is not the first team I have lead.

      I think what is important is to realize that project managers are human too. As project members, we see lot of flaws from our leader but once you lead, you’d realize the bigger picture is never quite a simple as it would seem.

      Another thing project managers need to learn is that everyone will have an opinion one way or another. What you need to do is to think about what would work best for the company. The acid test for me for any decision is, ‘How would this impact the company?’ and “Would this decision take us to a better state?”

      About asking questions to the team, I remind people regularly that they are MY subject matter expert. If I don’t need their expertise, they would not be part of the team. Being humble might not be the thing for some people but that is how I learn. That is how you can grow your project skills/knowledge base. By listening and asking a lot of questions.

      Why do anyone care if people think you are ignorant? I am in a non technical field as they come but we can talk IT project all day long because I understand technical stuff. I did not get there by talking, I got there by listening and asking question. A lot of ‘stupid’ questions. Sometimes questions that no one else asked because they don’t know what they don’t know.

      If you know your stuff but want to ask how the company does it. You can always prephrase it as, “So, typically the industry/market/outside, does XYZ like QFT. How does our company do XYZ.”

      Don’t worry about being the person people hate. Haters will be haters. Worry about your project outcome because ultimately your bottomline/reputation/cred gets impacted by it.

      Being female in the US seems like a disadvantage (I come from AsiaPac) but be true to yourself. Don’t let or lead politics into the project. Be aware of who can sell your project for you in managment. Reach out and keep those people in the loop. Don’t be afraid to talk /ask questions to managers who are not your direct supervisor. Leverage other team/people’s experience/capability.

  14. Miss C*

    I’m having a hard time trying to decide what would constitute a fair hourly wage for contract, fixed-term employees (so, not independent contractors), and figures are few and range widely in my very small and very specific field.

    I’ve come across several rules of thumbs for independent contractors (such as annual salary divide by 1000 = hourly rate rule of thumb, or 2x employee hourly rate). Are there similar rules of thumb for contract fixed-term employees? Does 1.25x employee hourly rate seem reasonable?

    1. Dan*

      I honestly don’t understand the distinction you are trying to make.

      Keep in mind that the IC rate is as high as it is because you’re paying for 1) Flexibility, 2) Benefits, and 3) Taxes that would otherwise have to be paid to a regular employee.

      If you’re talking about a legit employee who you are bringing on for a fixed period of time, the pay is whatever the market dictates. Start at base wages and see if you get takers, and if you don’t, go up from there. If you’re in a hurry and don’t have time to play games, consider the increased wage to be a convenience or “rush” tax.

      1. NW Cat Lady*

        I worked for a company that had contract employees, and they were paid above the going rate for that position (but I don’t know how much above).

        Basically, these were people who were hired to work on specific contracts, and when the contracts expired, so did their positions. They could then apply to work on another contract, but they had to go through the hiring process all over.

        They were paid more because the company knew they would be laid off at a specific date, and even though they’d be getting unemployment, this was supposed to let them put some money aside for the “lean times.” Essentially, they were like long-term temp positions that were filled by employees.

        Of course, we all know that employment is at-will and anyone can be laid off or fired at any time for most reasons. But it was harder to find people who were willing to take the short-term positions, rather than searching for the full-time ones.

  15. Healthy*

    I recently got a job in the healthcare field. I’m working in mental health. As part of my new employee packet they ask that I fill out a health form. Questions areintrusive asking if I’ve had an Ekg in the last five years, if I’ve been duagnosed with any illnesses. Question is how honest should I be? Yes I’ve had an ekg, yes I take meds for some things. None of it would affect my ability to do the job. I don’t want to lie but I also feel my complete health history is none of my employer’s business.

      1. ClaireS*

        +1 definitely ask! Don’t get defensive or anything, just a simple, “this questionnaire is quite detailed. Can you tell me what it will be used for.”

        The answer would have to be really good and confidentiality assured for me to complete it. Just because you work in health care doesn’t mean your employer gets to be involved in your health.

    2. Clinical Social Worker*

      I had to do a complete physical for my job and let them know what meds I take. This was for security issues as I work in a prison.

      Do you work in a secure place, like an inpatient unit? Does any part of your job require that you hold down patients? This might be why they want to know about health stuff, so that you can’t claim any previous physical ailments as “on the job” stress or injuries etc. That’s just a random thought though. I would ask them what they need this information for and see what their response is.

      1. Sunflower*

        I agree. Also, if you’re in a hospital, it might have something to do with having access to medication?

        1. Healthy*

          I have no access to medications and carry none with me and when we’re on the floor, we’re not allowed to have any personal items with us anyway. I can see the rationale, I’m just squicked out a bit by the questions. I have nothing to hide per se, but my health history is intensely personal and I don’t like it when employers start asking questions like that. Again, I get the rationale, I’m just not super thrilled by it.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        This. Working in mental health, it matters what if you carry medications with you. That can be an issue.

    3. MaryMary*

      This may be for insurance purposes. Some small employers (more than 50 employees, but less than 100) are still required to have employees complete a medical history for health insurance. You can’t be denied coverage due to what you put on the forms, but it may impact your employer’s premiums. It shouldn’t impact your individual premium (unless your employer has some sort of wellness incentives tied to your contribution), and HIPAA prevents your employer from knowing what medical conditions you may have. If this is an insurance form, omitting information is insurance fraud. Particularly since you have concerns about sharing your medical history, ask your manager or HR what the information is used for.

      1. hildi*

        Hmm, this is a really interesting point. The answer I was giving OP in my head was, “just fill out some basic, inanse stuff.” But then your point makes a lot of sense and I would definitely follow the rules if I knew it could be fraud if I didn’t! I agree – ask what its used for. MaryMary’s possibilty makes a lot of sense (though not really ideal).

      2. Healthy*

        It’s not an insurance form. Insurance doesn’t even kick in for 90 days so I don’t get the forms for that until later. This is part of the standard new employee packet.

    4. AsianQB*

      If you are not comfortable with this info, dont provide it. I’d be surprised if it says that it is mandatory. Sometimes employers ask for these things and tie it to a discount on health insurance. Check on it.
      You could ‘mistakenly’ leave out this form for now. If it comes back as a requirement, ask why it is needed and who will use it. HIPAA exists for a reason.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I spent years working with people with all types of disabilities.
      My chances of getting injured where very high.
      I felt the employer needed to know my pre-exisiting conditions to protect themselves if I got injured on the job.

      That may or may not have been true. But it was my feeling at the time. When I read what you posted here, those memories came flooding back. Sigh…

    6. NylaW*

      I work in healthcare and we have new staff fill out something similar as part of their onboarding drug and TB testing. As I recall we can ask whatever we want as long as it’s not something that reveals a disability that would qualify under the ADA, unless it specifically would prevent you from being able to do the job you were hired for, such as required lifting restrictions.

      As others have said it may be for insurance purposes, but if you aren’t comfortable or it wasn’t explained, just ask.

  16. Diane*

    I’m in the last couple of weeks wrapping up my position at an organization with epically bad management. I’ve been reorganized five times in just over five years. My budget and staff have been cut to the bone. I’ve been blamed for failing to get funding for programs that the state just stopped funding and had nothing whatsover to do with me. My last manager started moving me out from day one of her tenure over very fuzzy performance issues (I say this not to be defensive or in denial, but because even HR seemed puzzled that my stellar evaluations and great feedback from those I’ve helped have turned into this). Anyway, when they offered me a not-good contract for the next year and would not change any of the conditions, I declined to sign. Oh, and the top two people are leaving.

    So I’m having a rough time.

    I got past feeling bitter and angry at my boss and her boss. Difficult people are going to exist; the universe may as well put them together and make things uncomfortable enough to push me to do something I’ve been wanting to do. That’s fine. I’m worried about money and whether I can really go back to school and change careers so dramatically, but for the next few days, I’m mostly very sad for the programs that are going to suffer. I may be asked to consult and fix some of the mess, or management may bring in their own consultants too late. This is going to hurt the most needy people we serve. I hate it.

    I want the organization to reap what it’s sown. But I don’t want the good people left behind to suffer. So, no question, just mad, sad, guilty.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      FWIW, I think you are processing all of this quite well and you will come out the other side. Painful as hell, yes. But you will find a path through it.
      1) You are reality based, you see the good and the bad.
      2)You are in a bad situation but you have not lost YOU, your values, your ethics, your heart. That is still intact.
      3)You understand that you are being pushed to your next big gig. That is huge. Most people do not understand this process.

      For an incredibly sucky situation, you have things that are still in place and still right. All is not lost.

      1. Angora*

        I like what you’re saying. Will have to take those thoughts with me regarding my own situation.

  17. Tara*

    So I’m 17 and looking for a part-time job accomodating my high school schedule. The places around here that hire teens don’t really ever “hire”. People drop off resumes and when they have an opening they just call people who they have on file. So, with this in mind, how to I customize my cover letter? The local grocery store could have an opening for someone to stock the shelves, a cashier, a deli person, etc… Should I write it in a “I’ll be awesome wherever you put me because I have a wide range of skills and experience such as X, Y, Z” or should I aim it towards something specific? Anyone have experience with this type of thing?

      1. hildi*

        You’re not because there have been others in the past that can just conjure up these exactly relevant posts from ages ago. It totally blows my mind how you people remember these things! :)

    2. Colette*

      No experience, just thoughts.

      If you have specific relevant experience (e.g. you were a cashier at a summer job), I’d emphasize that. I’d also think about why you’re interested in working for the store – money is not the answer – and work that in.

      1. Tara*

        I’ve typically talked about gaining work experience, but I’ll also mention my desire to save up for university. Is that toeing the line towards inappropriately money-focused? And I’ve just finished up a year-long internship at a bank, which is kind of like being a cashier I guess. So I think I’ll focus mostly on the customer service bits. Thank you!

    3. Brigitha*

      I think the key with jobs like this is having a conversation with the person doing the hiring. When you drop off your application, see if you can talk to the manager. If you present yourself as bright, responsible, reliable, and ready to work they will probably give you a shot.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yes, this. Don’t be pushy about it, but if you can talk to a manager (even a shift manager or assistant manager), shake their hand, and look and sound confident and competent, they will figure you’re probably a better bet than any random unknown out there.

        Other than that, I think it’s better to focus on why you can do the one job you want to do at that company rather than how competent you are in so many areas. Hiring at that level is not about finding someone with potential, it’s finding someone who can do THAT job. Later on you’ll find that companies will want more depth, but not so much at this stage.

    4. LQ*

      I’d also really recommend talking to friends and friends of family and let them know. A lot of these positions are I know someone… kind of positions. And many of those people are very happy to help someone who is interested in finding a position because they got that kind of help when they were looking for a job (this is an opportunity for them to pay it forward). Let people know what you are looking for and ask if they know anyone. Don’t get discouraged if they don’t, thanks and try someone else.

    5. Kaz*

      You might also try creating your own job – do you have any handyman skills, good with pets, can do yard work, etc? Make up a nice website, get some cheap business cards, and go door to door in the neighborhood. You would definitely make a better wage than working as a grocery bagger.

      There was a kid about 15 pushing his lawnmower door to door in my neighborhood last year, offering to mow your lawn right now for $20. I had only recently upgraded to a powered mower, so if I was still using the push I’d definitely have given him twenty bucks for it. Plus the yards in my area are pretty small, so it’d only have taken ten minutes.

    6. JamieG*

      Emphasize, if you can, reliability and people skills. For a lot of places like that, they really just want someone who will show up for every shift and deal with rude/annoying people without walking out or getting into an argument. Any experience you have with cash handling or any other related job duty can help as well. If there’s one area you have more experience with (like if you’ve stocked shelves for three months, but cashiered for a year and a half), focus your cover letter on that one. Bring up the other experience if you get an interview, but focusing it down (if you can) will make the cover letter a lot tighter.

      Also, when you drop off your resume/cover letter, be sure you’re well-groomed and at least moderately respectable-looking (clean clothes that fit, not pajamas, shower that morning, etc.), because even in a retail or food service or whatever place if you show up looking gross, someone will remember.

      1. Tara*

        Thanks! Yes, like I said above, I’ve just finished up an internship at a bank so I have lots of experience with customer service and cash that I can reference. I’m also used to dressing up a bit for work. :) Honestly I would prefer a job with lots of customer interaction so I think I’ll focus my letter towards that.

  18. Natalie Anne Lanoville*

    I’m writing with a work-related favour (AAM please redact/remove if not appropriate). I work for a community ministry that serves the Vancouver homeless community.

    We are entered in a social media photo contest: http://givewherewelive.ca/en/projects/how-would-you-give/photo/15022

    The photo depicts community members and volunteers participating in our footcare program.

    We are currently on the leaderboard but waaaaay behind the front-runners. Any ‘like’s would be deeply appreciated.

    1. hildi*

      The man with his feet in the tubs holding the hands of the two women? I liked it (hope it was the right one!). A footcare program sounds intriguing – what’s that about?

      1. Natalie Anne Lanoville*

        Yup!! TYVM! Our footcare program provides a therapeutic footsoak for homeless people, coupled with relaxing conversation with volunteers, wound care, grooming support and a clean pair of socks.

        Many people who are homeless – even those who are sheltered overnight – spend as much as 18 hours on their feet, and some have challenges maintaining proper hygiene and finding clean socks.

        Every week, up to 175 people get to have relaxed footsoaks in warm water with epsom salts and tea tree oil, hang out with volunteers, and leave with clean socks (and sometimes new shoes).

    2. Natalie Anne Lanoville*

      A big THANK YOU to everyone who’s voting! The voting’s still open, and we are now in 5th place (out of hundreds of entries). We are actually tied for 4th place, heh. :)

      If you haven’t voted yet, it’s not too late! TYVM.

  19. Coco*

    Anyone have advice for immigrants who need references?

    My fiance will be moving here soon from Mexico and has a fairly successful career as a freelance photographer. None of the people he’s worked with speak English so he’s essentially without references. Other than his portfolio, he doesn’t even have any documents proving employment since he was paid “under the table” (which is fairly normal where he’s from).

    Fortunately he has an excellent portfolio & work experience and is bilingual so I think he’ll have a good shot at getting a job but I’m not sure what he can do about potential employers not being able to speak to people he has worked for.

    1. CLM*

      Could he get a few freelance photography gigs here in the States after he arrives? I work as a freelance writer, and I’ve never had a client ask for references, only clips. Once he has three English-speaking clients, he could use them for references for full-time work.

      Also, volunteer work is a good way to get references when you don’t have any.

      1. Coco*

        Oh now that’s interesting–I didn’t realize freelancers weren’t always asked for references. Makes me more optimistic! Volunteering sounds good, in fact I was thinking that there are probably a lot of school or summer camp programs that need volunteers and would surely appreciate a photographer. Thanks!

        1. CTO*

          Lots and lots of nonprofits would welcome a volunteer photographer! Visuals are increasingly important in social media and marketing in general, but most orgs can’t afford as much professional photography as they’d like.

          He could reach out to a local organization that does something related to his usual kind of work: an animal shelter, kids’ program, nature center, sports league, etc. I’m sure some organization out there will welcome his talents.

          He should make sure to ask upfront about using this org as a reference, to ensure that they’re willing to be reachable and responsive should he need them. He should also make sure he has permission to use the photos in his portfolio as needed (and that the org isn’t worried about confidentiality, photo releases, etc. for its subjects).

        2. LMW*

          If he has a portfolio website (really easy to set up for free using a platform like WordPress), he can also do testimonials — just ask his old clients for a short review he can post and translate them to English. Then list the quote with the name and put (translated into English) underneath.

          When I hire freelancers, I usually don’t call references, because the clips are more important and I’m not making a permanent commitment.

    2. Luxe in Canada*

      Perhaps you could get the references to write official letters of recommendation, talking about his skills and achievements, and then get them translated by a reputable translator? You’d need to submit a copy of the Spanish original along with the translation, but it might be a possibility. I know a lot of people who got degrees abroad need to get an official translation of the transcript to submit along with the original… It’s not quite the same situation, but it’s better than nothing.

      1. Coco*

        Yeah I’ve considered that, and I know his references would be totally willing to do that for him. I’m not even sure a professional translator would be necessary since it’d be pretty easy to verify whether the important parts were accurate (google translate for example), and it’d be super ballsy to translate it incorrectly, heh.

        Problem is the employer still doesn’t have anyone to call and talk to (which, from what I’ve read on AAM, seems pretty important). Even if the employer spoke Spanish, it’d still be an international call!

        1. JC*

          The challenges you listed can be overcome with a trusted Spanish speaking friend / employee. Employers are not going to balk at the expense of making international phone calls to verify that they are hiring a sane person…and there’s always Skype (and similar applications).

    3. g*

      For freelancers, it’s all about the book. There are few full time jobs as a photographer – is he looking into that type of work due to immigration issues? I’ve had a few friends go through that, and it’s pretty difficult. However, that really depends on what kind of photographer he is, and the quality level. I’d suggest making sure the tax/immigration status is OK for freelancing and to continue in that mode.

      1. Coco*

        He’ll be a permanent resident with employment authorization (since we’re getting married), so immigration status won’t be an issue.

    4. AVP*

      Hi! I hire freelance photographers relatively regularly. Where are you living?

      A couple of thoughts…no one will ask for proof of employment, so he shouldn’t worry about being paid under the table in the past.

      References aren’t that important in the freelance line, to be honest – referrals are the key. I think his best plan would be to take on any jobs he can scrape together in your new city, paid or not, while he’s looking for a job. The people he ends up meeting through that will almost certainly be the people who end up connecting him to the next opportunity.

      But yeah, I almost never ask for full-on references from freelancers, because typically they’re being referred to me by someone I trust. He needs to find those people and cultivate them.

        1. AVP*

          Ah that makes it even more casual. It should be pretty easy to set up some spec work in Portland, although most of the creative people I know there are freelancers. Not a lot of full-time opportunities unless you work for a large running company or their ad agency.

    5. Mints*

      I have no experience with photography, but I wanted to add LOTS of people speak Spanish. He really does have references, and it might be fairly easy for the employer to get someone on their staff to call if they’re interested. Providing a list of the references with notes on language along with some of the above suggestions could work

    6. PK*

      Do any of his clients have contacts in the states? Sometimes photography is who you know. If he has a great portfolio and one or two of his former clients refer him to someone else in the states, that may be all he needs to get the ball rolling.

  20. Stephanie*

    Wahoo! MST-friendly open thread start. I’ll be curious to see if this reduces the total number of comments.

    Well, I made it through a week of the Large River Fulfillment Center. Thought I could hack it. That was a nice tall glass of NOPE. The online stories are accurate. There was definitely gallows humor going on there. The group manager was doing an announcement (to about 50 people) and mentioned there was construction going on at a new warehouse across the street. Someone yelled out “Ooh! Are they hiring?”

    I’ve worked retail before and volunteered at the library’s online book store fulfillment center. The work itself was exhausting (but I expected that), it was the lack of breaks (two 15-minute breaks and a 30-minute lunch break (including commuting time across a warehouse the size of several football fields) for a 10-hour shift), the rate at which we had to pick items (about an item a minute). My pedometer tracked that I walked 11 miles one day.

    I woke up the other day with a strained thigh muscle and a knee the size of grapefruit and was thinking “Nope! This is not worth an injury. I will find another way to get some cash in the interim. Plus, this is making me too exhausted to even do a full-on job search.”

    A few thoughts (since I had a lot of time to think while I was scanning ALL THE THINGS):
    -I am very lucky. I sometimes do forget this as my job search goes longer and longer. This was not the difference between rent and no rent for me, unlike others. And even though it feels like I’m not going to find anything, I know at some point, I will land a position (or schooling that would put in the path toward a position) that is better.
    -The job market really is rough at all levels. Common refrain I heard from people there was that this was about the only place hiring that wasn’t demanding prior experience in the retail sector.
    -This company strikes me as cheap. (I’ve heard the same about corporate.) Simple things, like making the warehouse shelves more ergonomic (many shelves were at ground level), reducing the required rates, or allowing longer breaks would make things a lot better.
    -I don’t completely get how people will have moral objections to shopping at Walmart, but not here. My best guess is that the company hides its low-level workers and doesn’t have the pesky working-class taint Walmart does.

    1. K.inFL*

      Actually, I try to avoid that retailer if I can. I don’t like some of its business practices. I do buy MP3 through them.
      (not a fan of Apple or Google either; never go to WM)

        1. De Minimis*

          I feel guilty about it [have friends on Facebook who own a small bookstore and are rabidly anti-the company in question, and one of my favorite writers has also been very vocal against them] but still order from there.

          I have at least gotten to where I usually go elsewhere for books.

    2. Sharm*

      Wow! I’ll admit it, I’m shocked. I didn’t know about these stories. This definitely makes me view them in a different light. I feel like a friend of a friend of a friend type connections of mine have worked at corporate and enjoyed it, but perhaps something got lost in translation.

      Are you done done? Do you have something else lined up?

      1. Stephanie*

        Um, no? I worked there long enough to get this month’s bills paid. I still haven’t officially quit yet, so perhaps I’ll get a second wind before Sunday (when my next shift is scheduled). Maybe.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I was thinking about you all week!

      Well I am sorry that it didn’t work out for you for a bit longer for $ reasons but neither you nor I are shocked. “OMG, after everything we read, it seemed like a perfect fit. What a shock!”

      Our fulfillment operations ( a flea on butt of the flea that’s on the butt of the Big River) are under me so I do really read everything I can find on River Fulfillment operations. It’s the lack of full breaks that I can’t understand.

      It’s all just math. X products need to be filled in Y time which takes Z workers picking at A rate. You factor in that % of Z workers will meet A rate, and then you staff up and down to come up with the correct value for Z. If you reduce the required rate, that has a giant “negative” impact across all centers, increases the number of people you have to employ and increases the cost of goods sold. Okay.

      If you increase the break time to something that is more reasonable given the *travel* time to even take the break, it has a similar but not nearly as impactful effect. Theoretically, it would decrease the amount someone was able to pick per shift and thereby do all of the negative effect things that increase the cost of goods but….maybe not. A better rested employee might pick faster after break. I would guess they have tested that, but that’s the line I would draw. “Okay, we gotta give people full breaks, we are going to figure out how to make that work.”

      Long! You see I am geeky about this.

      Thanks for the story and sorry about the knee.

      Did you run into anybody who is happy there?

      1. Stephanie*

        I am geeky, too! This is what lead me to volunteer at my library’s online store fulfillment center.

        Large River is probably strict on the rate as if they send things out slower, they’ll lose their competitive advantage. (And I think Prime has some kind of shipping time guarantee or you get a refund.) But the rates don’t seem to be calculated with a human (that will get exhausted) in mind. You had a timer on the scanner and so many seconds to go retrieve it–it could be as little as 60 seconds to get to a bin a quarter of a mile away (you’re pushing a cart as well).

        Automation probably is the future. Some of the warehouses in Washington are partially automated with these industrial-sized Roomba-looking things that carry the shelves to the pickers (who then inspect for quality). I think the current system’s super expensive and the PR fallout from “taking away jobs”, so I don’t think it’s quite happening yet.

      2. Stephanie*

        Oh! To answer your last question, I think the higher-ups, managers, and people who were direct employees (I technically worked for the staffing agency) were a bit happier. People doing the scut work, not so much. I did see some woman just cursing at her inventory cart.

    4. EE*

      Australia-friendly too! I’m awake!

      Sounds like you made the right decision leaving this place. You’re lucky to have the choice and you shouldn’t be afraid to use it.

    5. Blue Anne*

      Really interesting to read your feedback. But not surprising, unfortunately.

      Maybe after some recovery time you’ll be able to look back on it as an “interesting experience”?

      Very glad to hear you have other options. I really feel for the people who don’t. Urgh. I have got to stop using Big River.

    6. Liz*

      My friend’s husband also works in Big River Fulfillment Center, and from what I’ve heard, it is insanely hard, unpleasant work. There was actually a story in the local paper a few years ago about the company getting busted for a ton of OSHA violations in the warehouse. (So many employees collapsed from the heat and had to be taken to the ER that the local hospital finally reported it.) Conditions are much better now, apparently, but still: no thanks.

    7. Mimmy*

      Wow…they make you WALK all throughout the fulfillment warehouse??! Sounds like they run their people pretty ragged. And if this is who I’m thinking it is, they just opened up a fulfillment center in my state, and are actively hiring. Ha! New hires are in for quite the surprise! (well, maybe not, but still!)

      Hope the knee feels better soon!

      P.S. (OT, but while I have you here…): I’ve been meaning to thank you for the information in your email a couple weeks ago :)

      1. Elizabeth West*

        It makes more sense to me to hire enough people so that each person or small group of people covers one smaller area of the warehouse, if it’s that big. That way people aren’t running back and forth, which is terribly inefficient and a huge waste of time. They could get picks done a LOT faster without all the associated unpleasantness.

      2. Stephanie*

        Sort of. You get assigned to one specific task (picking, packing, stowing, etc) for outbound (sending the stuff out to customers) or inbound (product intake from the manufacturers). If you’re picking (like I was) the algorithm does keep you in one general area. Every once in a while, however, I would have to run from say bin 412 to bin 680 (which I estimated was close to a half-mile). And also, since these are humans picking, you do get collisions, people in the same aisles blocking the shelf you need, etc.

    8. AVP*

      Oh, how terrible and discouraging. I don’t think I could do that much physical labor and then come home and write cover letters.

      Re: the cheapness, I think it’s a complicated mentality that comes from being a huge, world-power company but also never turning a profit.

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, I was fascinated to learn that they don’t really turn a profit. Any idea why? Do they have the same issue as Facebook or Twitter where they get insanely high and illogical valuations?

        1. AVP*

          Not an expert, but from what I understand their push so far has been all about market share (selling to as many people as possible), and thus their prices are artificially low (which you can see if you compare their prices to, like, anyone else).

          So far, investors and the stock market have kept them afloat, but won’t last forever.

        2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          It’s all about investment in infrastructure and also market share.

          In order to deliver fast fast fast, they’ve built and staffed all of these centers all over the US, so they keep plowing investment money back in the business.

          And then market share, well, they just won’t be undersold so they will sell product categories at a loss, if need be to maintain or gain dominance.

          Bezos is unafraid.

    9. Kaz*

      I’ve heard good things about Leapforce.com – it’s work at home stuff, not an exciting pay rate, but def better than nothing.

    11. Anx*

      I only shop there when the discounts are significant, as I’m poor myself. Or when there’s a 2 dollar item I can’t find in a store and I don’t want to pay $8 shipping because the item isn’t worth $10.

      But otherwise I try to avoid it. I also get disappointed when one of my favorite shows contracts with their streaming (not that Apple doesn’t have shady practices)

  21. kas*

    I joined a new department which meant moving away from my annoying coworker (yay)! I thought I finally escaped but she still finds a way to visit me. She always has something to say or complain about and keeps trying to get me to open up to her. I barely respond or acknowledge her but she just isn’t getting it. All she talks about is how miserable she is at work and how she needs a new job and some random stuff about her family.

    I’m slowly losing it.

    1. Rana*

      Sounds like you need to be more blunt; clearly she’s a person who either doesn’t get your hints or is ignoring them. I’d also be relentless about being a bad audience; if she’s not getting the feedback she needs (and even just being a quiet sounding board may count) she’ll go away.

      “Carol, I’m very busy right now. I don’t have time to talk. Thanks!”

      “I’m sorry you don’t like the work here. Now, excuse me, I need to get back to this report.”

      “You’re right, you probably do need to find a new job. But I don’t have time to help you with that.”

      “Carol, that’s very interesting about your nephew. Now, I need to concentrate on this project.”

      And accompany all of these with the appropriate body language – turning away, picking up a file, walking out the door, gently ushering her to the door and pushing her out, etc.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I get this with someone I help out once a week. Every time she sees me, she starts telling me her woes. I sympathize, but there’s nothing I can do and it’s starting to get on my nerves. I don’t know how to get her to stop without being mean or seeming like I don’t like her (I do, but I’m tired of the griping).

    3. KrisL*

      “I’m sorry, but I really have to get back to work” Then turn toward what you’re doing and look concerned and maybe slightly worried.

  22. CollegeAdmin*

    For those of you who remember my post in last week’s open thread about my supervisor trying to pimp me out to get her shredding done, an update:

    I decided not to say anything to her and forgive (but not forget!) the instance. If it happens again, I will bring it up and firmly shut it down. On the bright side, she told me today that as a “birthday gift” (my b-day is this Sunday), she decided that our work-study student could be allowed to do the shredding. The student used the shredder near the office manager’s desk, so therefore was “supervised” so she wouldn’t read the “confidential” materials. I’m thrilled – that’s 4-5 boxes’ worth of shredding that I didn’t have to do!! I wish it was my birthday more often :)

    1. NylaW*

      Well I’m glad you didn’t get stuck with all of it, but your manager still sounds like a whack job. :)

    2. Kaz*

      I didn’t see the original post, but does she know there are companies that will come pick up the box and shred the whole damn thing in one go? It’s got to be more cost-effective than actually paying someone to sit there and shred.. said as someone who shredded for four months because they couldn’t think of anything else to do with me.

      1. Frances*

        When I was in university admin, our Facilities department actually offered this service — they’d bring you a locking wastebin, you’d fill it up and then they’d haul it off to be shredded. A lot of people didn’t know about this service (I only found out about it accidentally while browsing the Facilities section of our website for different info), so if you haven’t looked into that yet, see if they have that kind of option.

    3. Vancouver Reader*

      She reminds me so much of a former supervisor who would re-gift things that came into the office as our Christmas gifts. Things like calendars and pens that were given to our boss. She was a piece of work, much like your supervisor.

  23. Maggie*

    I work at the reception desk & have a couple of complaints about some applicants. First, why are you bringing your toddlers along? If you don’t have a babysitter on job-hunting day, will you ever have a sitter on work days? Second, when you come for your interview please leave your BFF’s in the car. Your entourage impresses nobody. Third, dress appropriately! Clean, business casual clothing is good…looking like a cheap hooker is embarrassing.

    1. FiveNine*

      It sounds like these are not people who have been called for an interview but are dropping by to fill out an application on a day of job hunting. If that’s the case, of course there are going to be unemployed people who need a job and money — maybe mothers with toddlers or people who have a friend or relative with transportation driving them to several sites when they cannot or do not have those resources.

      1. Chloe Silverado*

        Obviously you can’t leave an unattended toddler in the car while you fill out a job application, but the adult friends and family can and should be waiting outside.

    2. evilintraining*

      Had one of those yesterday: “How long will this take? Cuz I got kids in the car.” Come back when you don’t; sorry. I’m not completely unsympathetic to people’s situations, but that’s unacceptable.

      1. Allison*

        Yikes! Not that I condone doing it ever, but that’s not something you admit to a potential employer! Talk about a huge turnoff. If you’re the type to leave your kids in the car, what other irresponsible stunts are you gonna pull?

    3. Betsy*

      Babysitters cost money. Sometimes a lot of money. And when I was unemployed, I didn’t really have “job-hunting days”. I had the tasks for job-hunting, which were mixed in with my other tasks. If I had to stop by an office to drop off an application or information packet, I would do it on my way to or from another place I had to be.

      It’s totally different to say, “Have a babysitter or daycare while I’m paying you to come work,” as opposed to “Hire a babysitter to drop off an application that may go nowhere: that $20 will either come out of your food bill for the week or shave a day off the time until you become homeless.”

      1. Betsy*

        I’m assuming this is for what FiveNine said above — dropping off an application vs a scheduled interview. For an interview, yes, you absolutely need a babysitter.

      2. Colette*

        Dropping off an application is every bit as much job hunting as an interview. Yes, it may go nowhere, but the chances of not getting to the next stage go way up if you bring other people (adults or children) with you. If you can’t find child care, online applications will probably be more effective for you.

        1. Betsy*

          I agree that it will hurt your chances to have the kids with you. All that I’m saying is that it will hurt your chances less to drop off an application while you have the kids with you than to never drop off an application at all, in which case your chance is zero.

          Maggie’s comment was “If you don’t have a babysitter on job-hunting day, will you ever have a sitter on work days?” and I was pointing out that that’s a false parallel, because once you have the job, you will have a job, which means you will be in a position to pay for childcare.

          Some people have people who can help them out by watching the kids while they drop off applications, but a lot of people don’t. If you’ve been unemployed for 2 years are are living off assistance, and have no good support network, it is crushing to hear people wave off your incredibly difficult choice about whether to eat meat this week or increase your chances of getting a job from this application from 1% to 4% by saying, “Get a babysitter!”

          1. Colette*

            Bringing a child (or anyone else) along is not professional. People go in to apply because it gives them a chance to make a good impression – bringing a child means that your first impression is that you don’t understand what’s appropriate in a work environment.

            Once that impression – that you don’t understand job norms – is out there, it’s not a large leap to wonder what will happen when the child is sick & can’t go to daycare/ the babysitter is on vacation/it’s a school holiday.

            1. Anu*

              There are tradeoffs in this world. I just had to comment on this because I feel that this is the sort of unsympathetic attitude that makes American workplaces so harsh.

              What, in the real world, is a person supposed to do? If you are a single mother, and you want to apply for a job, sometimes there is no choice but to take your kid along to drop off the application. There are many people out there, especially in this economy, who don’t have the financial capital to pay for babysitters, or the social capital to get friends or family to look after the kid (heck, maybe the friends and family are in the kind of positions where they can’t take the day off to go look after a friend’s kid). This sucks, but it is not this person’s fault.

              I’ll also note that plenty of people in my white-collar office bring their kids in once in a while, and it’s not considered particularly unprofessional – but they have the luxury of making good money and not having their every choice judged by passersby. Try to treat people with a little more kindness.

              1. Colette*

                I think it’s kinder to be honest about the impact of choices people make while job hunting than to tell them the world should adjust to suit them.

              2. Tinker*

                “I’ll also note that plenty of people in my white-collar office bring their kids in once in a while, and it’s not considered particularly unprofessional – but they have the luxury of making good money and not having their every choice judged by passersby.”

                I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here — personally, it hasn’t escaped my notice that it tends to be folks who aren’t paid much, don’t have a lot of discretion in how they do their work, and don’t tend to have issues of public duty involved in their work that tend to most often get called out for being “unprofessional”. Which I find mildly hilarious.

              3. Jamie*

                I’ll also note that plenty of people in my white-collar office bring their kids in once in a while, and it’s not considered particularly unprofessional – but they have the luxury of making good money and not having their every choice judged by passersby. Try to treat people with a little more kindness.

                TBF everyone has more leeway with everything once you’re an established employee with a track record. No one gets that same kind of benefit of the doubt as a unknown job seeker.

                First impressions are always more important because it’s the only data point people have about you. That’s true for everyone regardless of socioeconomic status.

      3. JobSeekersWife*

        I agree with Betsy. In an ideal world, you would have childcare for dropping off an application. But, when you don’t have a job, childcare money is saved for actual interviews.
        Employers: please don’t penalize people who otherwise dress and act appropriately just because they have a child in tow.

        1. Colette*

          The problem is that the employer has very little data about you. All they know is:
          a) what’s on your application, and
          b) you brought a child with you

          I understand that childcare might be a problem – but it’s not the employer’s problem, and if you bring a child with you, it’s not clear that you understand that. (I’d also wonder who’s watching the child while you’re filling out the application.)

          Many places allow you to apply online – take advantage of them!

          (All “you”s above are the generic you, not specific to JobSeekersWife or Betsy.)

          1. Anx*

            Or they could understand that, but have no other options. An employer may not see it, but leaving your kids home unattended is a worse judgment call for many people.

            1. Colette*

              I’m not suggesting leaving children home alone, I’m suggesting not going in to a business to apply for a job with your children in tow. Many businesses allow online applications. If you are applying at businesses that don’t, get a sitter for one day and apply at all of the places you’re looking at.

              Do you want to get a job (again, generic you)? If so, why would you do something that severely hurts your chances?

              1. Betsy*

                If you’ve been unemployed for 15 months, it’s not likely that you’re thinking, “Let me save up all of these places that I want to apply and collapse them down into a single day.” You’re probably thinking, “I have applied for every job that looks like a possibility, and no one has hired me. Now there is a new place with an opening, and I have to drop off an application there. I want to do it as soon as I can.”

                For a lot of people out there right now, there is no money and no work, and spending money on something that may lead to a job, but probably won’t, is a really irresponsible expense.

                No one is saying “This is the best thing to do.” We’re just saying that our society really puts single parents in an awful can’t-win bind sometimes, and the lack of sympathy and assumption that people will suck at their jobs because they’re struggling by the best they can is really unsympathetic.

                I get that this is the only impression you have, and that if you can, you should try to not bring the kids. My only point is, if the choice is between bringing the kids while you drop off the application or never applying, I know which is going to make it less likely you get the job.

                1. Colette*

                  if the choice is between bringing the kids while you drop off the application or never applying, I know which is going to make it less likely you get the job.

                  I don’t understand why you’d choose something that will hurt your chances with many people instead of something that won’t (i.e. networking, applying online).

                  You’re seeing this as “it’s better than nothing”, but … it’s not much better. Why not look for other ways to spend your job hunting time that may be more effective?

                  I understand it’s hard out there, but that means it’s more important not to shoot yourself in the foot, not less.

              2. Anx*

                After a certain point, you can’t network anymore or apply to anything else online in your area. You exhaust those options. And yet, you haven’t walked into every single storefront.

                It’s not wise and it’s not effective. But there’s a lot of badgering of the unemployed to pound the pavement and a lot of rhetoric that they aren’t really trying unless they’ve tried everything. What employers look for in a job applicant and what taxpayers look for in a job applicant are at odds. If you’ve been unemployed for a long time, it’s hard NOT to internalize some of that shame for taking the day off to focus on a career or a good job and not try to break yourself trying everything.

                Plus, when networking and online applications haven’t worked for months or years, can’t you imagine why someone might want to try another avenue?

              3. azvlr*

                I’m thinking that if this person cannot afford a babysitter, maybe they can’t afford a computer/internet service as well.

                Plus, why is it such an involved process to drop off an application? I’m guessing that if these applicants are in the socio-economic bracket suggested by the other hurdles, the reception desk where Maggie works may have a long line. So leaving the kids in the car is not an option. And even the most well behaved child is going to become a nuisance waiting in such a line. Maybe instead of complaining about/penalizing people bringing their children in, Maggie can look at their procedures to see if they can streamline the application process.

        2. Vancouver Reader*

          If someone’s just dropping off an application, can they leave the child just outside of the office for a quick moment? Provided it’s not a baby of course. Just again for those first impressions.

    4. Audiophile*

      Maggie, unfortunately I’ve seen this occur at my job as well. Sometimes people drop by dressed as if they’re coming for an interview and my company does not do on the spot interviews. And they only take applications via their website. I’ve only seen one person come in with their baby.

      1. LQ*

        Wait so it’s wrong to drop by in professional dress to drop off a resume? Assuming they aren’t pushy I don’t get the problem?
        (I do understand that they aren’t following the proper process and applying online, I understand and it makes total sense to take that into account. But since when is dressing professionally a professional sin?)

        1. Audiophile*

          LQ, I wasn’t criticizing them for showing up dressed appropriately. Somehow my other sentence got lost. I think it’s great to dress appropriately, but that can be business casual. It doesn’t have to be full suit and tie.

          I just feel bad, because I know it won’t lead anywhere. I direct them to the website, that’s all I’m allowed to do. I feel less bad when they get aggressive or angry. I can’t and won’t give you the name of an HR person. And I’m sorry you went to the website and your application was ignored, showing up isn’t going to make it better.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        No, you WANT to dress nicely when dropping off an app. I’ve had people interview me on the spot and I never knew if/when that was going to happen. Besides, it gives a good impression to the front office staff, whose observations may be given weight by the hiring manager.

      3. chewbecca*

        My favorite is when people show up in dirty, torn or just not appropriate clothes and ask if we’re hiring. We normally do most of our hiring through staffing agencies, so I’ll give them the names of a few. What gets me is that usually after we go through all that, then they’ll ask what we do.

        I don’t need to feel like a special snowflake and have you gush all over the front desk about how awesome you think our company is, but at least knowing what we do when asking to work here is helpful.

  24. Sharm*

    I’m about to become the most unpopular person on this blog, but here goes.

    A rant for the day.

    My office is participating in Bring Your Dog to Work Day, and I am really annoyed about it. For some reason, it’s become completely socially acceptable to say you hate babies and children, but say you don’t like animals, and you’re a monster.

    I don’t like animals. I didn’t grow up with them, I don’t find them that cute, and I just don’t like being around them. However, this is a societal norm that I feel like I always have to acquiesce to. I don’t have an allergy, and I really wouldn’t want to lie and say that to my manager as a reason not to come in. I have meetings scheduled for the day anyway, but even if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have felt comfortable asking to work from home for that reason. “Not liking” something, as we’ve discussed ad nauseum, is not reason enough to rock the boat.

    As someone in the minority on this, I just have to suck it up. I do, and I will. But I am really, really not happy about it. The thought of the dog smells, hair, barking, and everyone cooing over the animals, constantly being a source of distractions all day — it really bugs.

    I don’t get the pet love, and I know I’m weird. I just really wish they didn’t have to impose it on the whole office.

    And now, bring on the hate mail.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I am a huge dog lover and I don’t hate you. People have asked me for a dog day and given that I talk about my dogs incessantly, you’d think it’d be an easy sell but no. Some folks don’t like dogs. (Occasionally I bring mine in for a five minute visit but I’m careful to keep control of them and only visit other known dog lovers.)

      We do have a big, sweet Doberman who hangs out (sleeps!) in the warehouse, partitioned off. Nobody knows she is there unless they intentionally go to visit. Which. I do. Sweetheart.

      1. Sharm*

        I feel I should state for the record that the majority of the time, my issues have been with pet owners who don’t understand that their tolerance levels are different than other people’s. And if they can’t understand that not everyone likes when a dog jumps up on them. “Friendly” to them is “aggressive” and “in my personal space” to me. I really feel like that’s a training issue some people are lax on. And some people are very good, which is awesome!

        Case in point, last weekend I watched World Cup with some friends who have a dog, who has a scary bark, but is otherwise super chill. She came by me and laid down by my side, and it was actually quite nice. I was petting her fur and everything — big for me! One on one is one thing though; what my office is proposing will be tough.

        Thank you for not hating me! And for being one of the respectful owners.

        1. WK*

          Ugh, bad pet owners! If I had a nickel for every time I heard “oh, he was a rescue” as an excuse for badly-trained dogs, I could retire early! Tough it out, use a knee-jerk to prevent any dogs from jumping on you, and reward yourself after the day with a nice glass of something soothing! Oh, and avoid getting close to any friendly large-breed dogs because they tend to want to lean against your legs like mine do!

        2. Persephone Mulberry*

          Bad pet owners are right up there with inattentive parents on the annoyance scale. WK is on point with his/her advice.

          I hope BYDTWD is only once or twice a year, and not a monthly event!

        3. The Cosmic Avenger*

          That summed it up very well, Sharm…I may have to steal that! :D

          I tolerate dogs. I say that because many are not well socialized. I love calm dogs or dogs who know people are alpha dogs, but even my BIL, a great guy, has hyper dogs who climb all over everyone and everything.

          This is why I’m a cat person. “Pushy” for a cat is usually making noise and glaring at you. I am comfortable handling that.

        4. Rana*

          Bad pet owners have always burned my grits. “Oh, don’t mind him, he’s friendly!” “Oh, yeah, the barking. That’s what dogs do.” “Bowser! Bowser! Stop that!” ::yanks leash ineffectually::

          If you can’t properly educate your dog to be polite, you shouldn’t be taking that dog out in public, let alone making excuses for its behavior.

          I love animals; that’s part of why I dislike people who can’t be bothered to ensure that their pets are properly socialized. It’s not fair to other people, and it’s not fair to the pet.

        5. Mimmy*

          And if they can’t understand that not everyone likes when a dog jumps up on them. “Friendly” to them is “aggressive” and “in my personal space” to me.

          I can’t STAND it when dogs jump up on me or start pawing me! And don’t even get me started about dogs who sniff at you….down there.

        6. chewbecca*

          You’ve just described my mom’s attitude toward her dog. He’s sooooo cute! The constant jumping on people is just a cute little thing he does. No. I don’t like being touched when I don’t invite it, so having a dog constantly jump and rub on me is Not Cool.

          I love dogs. We have an awesome rescue, who for the most part is well trained (he’s very protective of his people, so he’ll bark at people coming in the house, but he also backs away from them). He likes knowing where his people are, but doesn’t need to be right up on them constantly. My cat on the other hand has no concept of personal space…

        7. KrisL*

          I love dogs and grew up with them. I don’t hate you either. My feeling is that the whole thing depends greatly on the specific dogs. A well-behaved dog is a delight. An aggressive one is not a dog who should come to work. A dog who jumps on everyone – not a good thing, even if this is a friendly dog.

    2. NW Cat Lady*

      You’re not alone.

      OK, I love animals, but I also think that an office is not the place for them. Some are well-behaved, but some aren’t; just like with children, the people who have the ill-behaved ones are convinced that YOU just don’t understand the child (or dog).

      I live in a *very* dog-friendly city, and people think it’s all right to take their dogs just about everywhere. And then they get irritated when you’re annoyed by it. AND they get offended when they can’t take their dogs certain places (bars, restaurants, etc.).

      So, even though I don’t get your non-getting of the pet love, I totally get the not imposing it on everyone.

      1. Vancouver Reader*

        “AND they get offended when they can’t take their dogs certain places (bars, restaurants, etc.)”

        Okay I understand in Paris it’s totally acceptable to bring your dog into your restaurant, when I’m in Paris I’m fine with it. But what’s with people taking their dogs into department stores here? Is your dog going to help you choose your sofa and loveseat? I don’t get it.

    3. robot chick*

      Ok, saying that as someone who’s currently at a company with *perpetual* bring your dog to work policy (and loving it, though not a dog owner), it’s perfectly reasonable to not be a fan.
      If there’s a door you can close, do it, and maybe talk to the people on your floor / in your area about your concerns regarding dog hair on clothes you’re going to be meeting clients(?) in. In a “I’m just not good with animals”, not a “keep your filthy mutt away from me” kind of way, but you guessed that already.
      Finally, in my experience, dogs (unlike cats) probably won’t try to engage you if you actively ignore them, so you should be good. Unless their owner subscribes to the laissez-faire style of doggie training, in which case you can objectively argue that this particular dog is not fit for to be brought in and needs to be removed…

    4. Nutcase*

      I don’t mind animals in general and I grew up with a cat at home but these days I’m a complete germophobe. I’d hate to have a dog day at work too mostly because I’d be in a constant state of ick, needing to wash my hands if I touched anything. Perhaps my main reason is a bit of a quirk, but I’m also quite scared of big dogs nomatter how much their owners assure me that they’re a big softie or their bark is worse than their bite. I’m quite short and really not very strong so if a big dog even playfully jumped at me I would be down on the floor. Also if a dog comes up to me in any situation I am always terrified that it might lick me or something and the thought of that makes my skin crawl. I’m really weird with saliva. So yeah, having to be around dogs all day would be a bit of a nightmare for me.

      Writing it all out like this makes me sound like a bit of a weirdo so I probably wouldn’t want to explain this at work if a dog day did somehow materialise! Luckily I work somewhere where having animals running around would be wildly unsafe but I think I’d have to develop a mysterious allergy or find a closet to work in solitary confinement for the day if dogs were coming in.

      1. Rana*

        That doesn’t sound weird to me! I basically like dogs, but I don’t like being jumped on, and I hate being licked by them. You don’t have to couch it in terms of being afraid or paralyzingly disgusted; just saying that you don’t like it and would rather not interact with the dogs more than necessary should do the trick (if the owners are reasonable people).

      2. Not So NewReader*

        There die-hard dog owners that do not like being licked. Lots of reasons for that. Not too weird, really.

        1. Anonsie*

          I. HATE. Being licked by dogs. My dog doesn’t even try to lick people because her whole life I’ve been dodging it and telling her no if she tries to put her tongue on my face.

          She licks her butt, I don’t want any of that noise.

          1. Anonie*

            I love my dog to death but I don’t take doggie kisses for that very reason! I would seriously risk my own life to save my dog because I love her that much but I can’t let her lick my face because she is licks her bootie! Just can’t do it!!

      3. Anx*

        Not weird at all!

        I feel uncomfortable in some homes with cats because not all owners are the type to wipe down counters with disinfectant and that weirds me out.

        And I love dogs and dog kisses, but some dogs are very slobbery and don’t stop. I hate having to wash my hands over and over again because some doggy thought they were popsicles. I love dogs so I don’t really mind it, but at work it would probably be a distraction.

    5. Blue Anne*

      I LOVE animals. All kinds of animals. I’m a dog person really, but I love cats too, and reptiles. I have a very spoiled hamster, and a membership at the zoo. I’ve helped with rescues, gone on bat-watching trips, and have actually thought about setting up a rodent rescue myself, as so many people seem to treat mice/rats/hamsters/gerbils/chincillas as disposable pets.

      BUT. Even with that, I have absolutely nothing against you for not liking pets. That’s completely valid. Don’t feel bad or weird about it. I’m sorry you have to put up with Dog Day, honestly. I’d love something like that, but I would still think it was pretty inappropriate for the office.

    6. Elkay*

      I like animals however the only place I’ve ever worked where I didn’t mind having dogs in the office was a nature reserve where it felt appropriate because a) the dogs were well trained and b) at least one of them was there to work.

      My only exception is when our old receptionist used to breed golden retrievers as guide dogs and she’d bring a puppy or two in for a visit before they went off to start their training. She’d bring them in on a day she wasn’t working and generally there was a stampede towards her so she’d just stay in one place.

      My cousin decided it would be super cute to get a puppy and take it into her high end real estate office, don’t know how that went down but I suspect she didn’t care…

    7. kas*

      Oh my gosh, I’m freaking out for you.

      I am not an animal lover and I don’t want them near me so I understand. I would honestly have to find a way to miss work/the meeting or I would speak to my manager. I’d actually have like an anxiety attack if an office I worked in did that. I’ve worked in 2 places that had a dog, one was small and old so it really didn’t bother you but the other one … I did not hide my fear and they had to keep it away from me. I really wish people would stop doing things like this, not everyone loves your dog.

    8. nep*

      Not a lot of hate mail in these responses…You absolutely are not alone. I like animals. Would not at all like this ‘bring your dog (or other pet) to work day’.
      I respect your not wanting to lie and say you’re allergic so as not to come in that day.
      Seems like a real imposition on some people — and with no benefit.

      1. De Minimis*

        I love animals and have two dogs, but I don’t like the thing now where people want to have dogs everywhere. It is so inconsiderate of others. I think there’s also an assumption that the dogs are fine going all these places, and I don’t know if that is true either.

        1. LMW*

          I love animals, and we’re a dog family, but I HATE inflicting my dog on other people, unless I know they are dog people. She’s pretty well behaved (doesn’t bark, doesn’t jump), but she expects that everyone near her is as interested in meeting her as she is in meeting them, and I can’t train that out of her (been trying for 8 years).
          I’d never in a million years take her to the office. She’d be way over stimulated and would whine all day. It would drive us all nuts!
          I’m sorry your company is doing this. It’s a terrible idea.

    9. BRR*

      I love dogs but I’m not sure if bring your dog to work actually works. I have a super sweet dog but in a new place with so many people, he would want to meet all of them and would not sleep under my desk. Plus there are so many dogs who just sit and bark at other dogs. Not to forget people have allergies and once the dog hair is there, it’s going to be there on non dog days.

      Honestly if you can, take the day off. I know it’s not fair to have to but if you don’t like dogs, just call it a mental health day. As someone above recommended “I’m just not good with animals/dogs.” That is totally non offensive.

      1. Kelly*

        You are absolutely not crazy. As a dog owner, I would love to someday have a job where I can bring my pup to work, but it is my responsibility to make sure my dog is well behaved and to be sensitive to others feelings about having her around.

        I do take her to the firehouse when I am not on duty, partly because I want her to be better socialized and to work on training. But she is also where I can keep an eye on her, and I make sure to check with everyone to make sure there are no allergies or dislikes before I let her roam anywhere.

    10. Camellia*

      Don’t hate you, you are allowed to have opinions and preferences!

      That said, I’m really surprised that a company would have ‘bring your dog to work’ day. So many people have so many issues with dogs, as other posters have mentioned here, that it just doesn’t seem like a reasonable thing to do.

      1. Anx*

        I’m surprised because of fleas. Maybe because it’s June and I live in the southeast US, but I’m surprised.

    11. MousyNon*

      I hear people complaining about how it’s “more acceptable to hate kids than pets these days” and honestly, I don’t see it. Parents are, compared to dog owners, overwhelmingly accommodated in most societal areas in the US. Kids aren’t banned from most methods of transport (and typically kids even receive discounted tickets) like pets are, kids aren’t banned from all indoor restaurants and most outdoor restaurants (despite the badly behaved ones being just as if not more disruptive in those environments), and people are far more likely to swallow a screaming kid in annoyed silence, but a barking dog will get you kicked out or evicted surprisingly fast.

      Now, I don’t necessarily disagree with any of these preferential treatments–kids are kids, they’re a fact of life, and it’s hard enough to raise kids as it is without people making some allowances. But I think it’s incredibly unfair to imply that somehow pet owners are overly accommodated. I also think it’s unreasonable to wish that one day–one single day!!–of pet accommodation in your employer’s office be banned because dogs annoys you.

      Kids annoy me (yep, I’ll get hate too). They’re loud, they’re constantly underfoot, the untrained-ones run around my department banging on file-cabinets, but aside from a polite “could you ask him to keep it down?” to the parent, I stuff my headphones in my ears and suck it up. That’s life in a polite society.

      HOWEVER, as a responsible pet owner myself, don’t ever hesitate to tell a pet owner “I don’t like dog’s jumping on me/in my personal space/barking, can you stop ____behavior____ or take him to another area?” That’s completely reasonable, and a responsible pet owner will completely understand that some people simple don’t like dogs.

      And just try to keep in mind–there’s no parental leave for dog owners, the only way we can travel long distances with our pets is in our own cars or by spending hundreds of dollars each way on airfare, we have to buy our own single family homes or face a shockingly difficult time finding apartments that allow them, and we can’t bring our pets anywhere. Not most work environments, not stores, not restaurants. And for some of us, our pets are like family. So–no, you don’t have to like them, and you don’t have to accept badly behaved dogs by any means–but give dog owners more generally a break!

      1. MousyNon*

        Oh, I forgot to add in my Tl;dr response–another perfectly reasonable thing for you to do is request that your company stringently define the pets that are allowed to come on that day. I.e. fully house trained, quiet, well behaved, limited to their cube/office, etc. Many companies that are dog friendly have/enforce very strict rules about them (and they should, precisely because there are so many irresponsible pet owners), and there’s no reason yours shouldn’t either, if they aren’t already.

      2. Sharm*

        I can’t generalize for the world at large, but in my social circle and world at large, yes, it’s perfectly acceptable to say you hate kids but not animals. I think it’s because I run in urban, younger circles where no one has kids but everyone has a pet.

        Everyone’s experience is different, of course.

    12. Clinical Social Worker*

      The reason I hate this is because I’m allergic! In college professors started bringing their dogs to work and it really made it difficult. When your dog leaves, it leaves dander behind and I still have to suffer with that!

      And I actually love animals! I just don’t like feeling like crap and struggling to see because my eyes are constantly tearing up. And scratching myself because I’m itching everywhere. And feeling tired and like my head will explode from congestion. Don’t even get me started on how difficult it is to focus on anything when you cannot breathe because you’re having an asthmatic attack.

      Dogs are basically like furry babies. And babies aren’t allowed in the workplace for good reason (with a few common sense exceptions that are rare). They are just as distracting and can cause health problems for people.

      1. Valar M.*

        Yep. I love dogs but in college my advisor kept a dog in her office. The first time I went there, the door was shut, I knocked and got a “come in!!” I opened the door to her dog leaping and jumping all over me. I found it annoying, and I can only imagine if I was a person that was afraid of dogs. After that he went back under her desk and just quietly stared at us while we talked but… still unacceptable.

    13. Allison*

      Before an office decides to participate Bring Your Dog to Work Day, they need to do two things:

      1) They need to make sure most employees want the office to participate.

      2) They need to give employees the option to work from home that day, no questions asked.

      Although honestly I would not want to bring a dog to work. I only worked from home a couple times while living with my parents, and while I loved our dogs they were an endless source of distractions during the day. They needed to go out, they needed to come in, they needed so much attention, and the younger one needed to bark at everything that moved. It was probably the biggest downside to working from home.

    14. C Average*

      I love cats and like dogs, but I still think this is dumb.

      Why must allegedly adult workplaces do this kind of cutesy nonsense? How does your pet have ANYTHING to do with your job?

      Don’t bring your dog or cat or son or daughter or mom or dad or significant other to work. Come to work on time, do your job, and then spend your free time with your dog or cat or son or daughter or mom or dad or significant other. See? That works fine.

      (I feel even more curmudgeonly than usual today. I’m blaming the rain.)

    15. Sparrow*

      I’m an animal lover, but I don’t think Bring Your Dog to Work Day is appropriate. Some people are allergic and some people just don’t like dogs. I have a family member who is afraid of dogs. There’s nothing wrong with not being an animal person. I agree, it sucks that something like this is being imposed on the whole office.

    16. Fabulously Anonymous*

      I’m an animal lover and don’t believe they should be brought to work – unless you work at a vet’s office. I’m okay with that, but even then, I believe the pet should be in the back area and not mingling with the patients and their owners.

    17. Raven28*

      I have a dog who I spoil rotten and love as a member of my family. I do not particularly like other people’s dogs all over me, which some people don’t get. I feel your pain, because as someone who has a dog, people often assume I will be more than happy to have theirs jump all over me or come visit me. I am not. I have to warm up to a pet.

      I would actually hate bring your dog to work day. I enjoy lines between personal and professional. Not to mention my dog is very nosey and would want to be everywhere with everyone, while I am sensitive that not everyone is okay with that I know many dog owners who are not and that would get under my skin.

    18. Jen RO*

      I am not allergic, I don’t hate pets, I’m not afraid of dogs, I have two cats… and I still think “bring your pet to work days” shouldn’t exists. When I’m at work, I’m working, not playing with my cat/dog/turtle.

    19. nyxalinth*

      I don’t hate you, either. There’s a world of difference between “I don’t like animals and don’t get the fuss over them” and people who go out of their way to be cruel and abusive. You’re in the first category, so it’s all good.

      1. Sharm*

        Oh no, I can’t handle cruel and abusive anything! And of course, if there’s a picture of a really cute puppy or kitten, I will squee with everyone else. In person, not so much.

        I am just not very affectionate/good at handling small animals (I’d include babies/kids in that group too). I would never, ever wish harm on an animal. That’s messed up. I don’t understand pet love, but I’d rather animals are cared for than hurt, of course!

        1. Jamie*

          There is nothing wrong with this, and I’m someone who prefers animals to people 100% of the time.

          You aren’t harming them – you just don’t want to snuggle or be around them if you can avoid it. Exactly how I feel about all of my friends’ husbands. :)

        2. nyxalinth*

          Heh, I love animals, but kids? I’ve known since I was five years old that I wanted to be child free. I like kids… when they’re someone else’s!

    20. LQ*

      I hate children. It is SO not acceptable to say that. This is a perspective, you say you hate dogs and people get upset so you notice it. I say I hate children and people get upset so I notice it. There are people who hate things, and there are people who get upset that people hate things.

      1. Sharm*

        I was all set to be defensive at your comment, but you’re right. It’s perspective. In every work environment (and life environment) I’ve been in thus far, it’s overwhelmingly tilted towards animals. Why? Tons of people I know have pets. No one has kids. So from my perspective, saying you hate kids isn’t controversial while saying you hate dogs means you’re socially shunned. I had a co-worker say to a new mom in our department that we should kill all the babies, and people laughed. So that was my reality.

        1. LQ*

          It totally is what universe are you in and what do you see.

          (I don’t hate kids but in my universe saying that I don’t want to have them translates into hating them apparently.)

          1. Anx*

            I don’t hate kids but I hate being around them sometimes. And I’ve worked with kids! I love working with kids. But interacting with kids is work to me. I hate trying to do an unrelated job and having a child thrown at me to ‘watch’ while being expected to fully attend to other duties.

    21. Mimmy*

      I don’t hate you one bit! :) To be clear, I don’t *hate* pets and I certainly don’t like seeing them getting abused or neglected. But I don’t think a “bring your dog to work” day is appropriate. Yes, some dogs are very well-behaved–just like children. However, not every likes dogs. I think some people are allergic to dogs (or is it cats that more people are allergic to?). Also, as I mentioned above, I can’t stand it when dogs jump up, sniff, or paw me. Even with cats, I don’t like it when they climb on me. Our cat does it all the time–sometimes she’s all wet because she plays with her water, and I’m like, “Get. Away. From. Me!”

    22. Jess*

      I love ALL animals, but I don’t blame you. If we could all just agree no kids and no pets in the workplace EVER, no matter how well-behaved, the world would be a happier place.

    23. Not So NewReader*

      I do agree that there is some social pressure to liking dogs/animals in general/kids. I am not sure why, people are who they are- if they don’t like a particular thing then so what?!

      I am a dog lover to the nth degree. However, a person’s no means no. It does not mean keep asking. I have put my dog in another room for a lot of people. It’s just a bad mix to put people next to dogs that they are uncomfortable with. It’s like asking for trouble.

      Honestly, there have been some dogs I do not want to be around. The animal is just not stable and the owner is not capable of handling the animal. I think as a dog owner that is the first thing I do is look at the other dog owner to see how much control is going on.

      My previous dog was part shepherd. He had the shepherd lines and he looked formidable. Adult men (big men) would cross to the other side of the streat rather than pass him on the sidewalk. I understood the gesture. I would do the same thing if I had reservations about a dog that I was approaching.

      I firmly believe that part of dog ownership is understanding the differences in people and not inflicting my dog on people who don’t want to get to know him.

    24. Anonsie*

      I’m fine with people not liking animals, but when people who don’t like kids or animals or whatever and have a laundry list of things that bug them just from being in the vicinity of one (like “dog smells, hair, barking, and everyone cooing over the animals, constantly being a source of distractions all day”) I always think they’re focusing waaay too much on it. You’re only causing yourself problems by obsessing before anything’s even happened.

      Like, I’m not wild about little babies, but if there is a baby somewhere near me I don’t care until it actually screams or horks on the floor or whatever. Or if someone MAKES me hold the baby (uuggghhhh) despite my protest. Before then I’m not sitting there stewing on how everyone shouldn’t be cooing over the baby and how unfair it is to be there, since it’s a distraction. It’s definitely an “eyes on your own paper” deal. It shouldn’t be bothering you before it’s literally bothering you, know what I mean? You don’t have to like it or participate in it, but don’t let the concept of animals existing be offensive to you.

      1. Anonsie*

        Oh geeze these sounded more hostile than I meant it to. I was trying to be helpful… Don’t worry about it now because you’ll just stress yourself out, you know?

        1. Sharm*

          That’s kind of what I meant by “I deal with it.” I would never say these things publicly (and I don’t), but I was just trying to give my perspective openly here.

          It was just a vent anyway; I’m sure it’ll be fine. As you say, I do fixate on these things because they’ve bugged me in the past, but I’ll just try to do my work and extricate myself from situations that bother me as best I can.

    25. Befuddled Squirrel*

      I’m in favor of bring your dog / kid / airplane to work days, but I think they should come with a policy allowing anyone not participating to work from home or escape to a section of the office designated as free from dogs / kids / airplanes.

    26. newbie in Canada*

      I have animals, and I love animals. However, they absolutely don’t belong in an office.
      My coworker brought in her pug every day, all day, for a whole week. It whined constantly and people were popping by every five minutes to “come see the doggy”.

      People bringing in a baby or a dog for a few minutes once in a while, ok. But not a whole day. No way.

  25. Elle*

    I’ve read that it’s okay to bring/take notes during interviews, but I’ve personally never done it. How can you do this in an interview without it being awkward or intrusive (which is how I feel it would be on my end)?? I have an interview coming up and I think it could be helpful to bring some notes, but I can’t figure out how to use them gracefully.

    1. Sharm*

      Most people I’ve interviewed with have my resume out with a pen, so I don’t really think it’s that weird.

      I think most times, I’ve opened up my notebook or am at the ready right as the interview starts. In most cases the interviewer will give a quick synopsis of the company and the position, and since they’re talking, I would take notes at that point. I frequently look up and back down at the page (my notes are never as neat as they normally would be), and just jot down keywords. I would stop when it’s my turn to answer questions, but ramp back up again when I ask questions.

      It weirded me out at first, but I do it a lot and it’s never been a problem. Not sure if that helps!

    2. Elizabeth*

      What kind of notes do you want to bring? In past interviews, I brought along a notepad with a few bullet points jotted down about things I wanted to find out during the interview, and when I got the inevitable “Do you have any questions for me?”at the end iI was able to make sure I didn’t forget anything in my nervousness. I also took VERY brief notes (like, a word or two at a time) when the interviewer was giving me information. Then right after the interview I sat in my car andfleshed them out into more detail.

      It’d look kind of weird if you checked your notes before answering a question (“A challenge I’ve faced and how I handled it? Just a sec, let me look it up…”) but I think otherwise it’s fine. Shows responsibility, in a way.

      1. LadyB*

        ‘It’d look kind of weird if you checked your notes before answering a question (“A challenge I’ve faced and how I handled it? Just a sec, let me look it up…”) ‘.

        Oh yes! I interviewed a candidate for a management role who had scripted responses for every single attribute referred to in the job description. For every question we asked them there was a pause while they rifled through their exercise book to find the attribute they thought the question referred to and read out their answer to that.

        Needless to say, the answers were not always appropropriate to the question we asked. We chose not to pursue their candidacy. any further.

      2. Audiophile*

        I did something like this once. I got the aforementioned ‘do you have any questions’ and quickly opened my notebook and then asked my questions. Felt really weird doing it but no one batted an eye. I really needed a minute to collect my thoughts.

    3. Fabulously Anonymous*

      I think it depends on your definition of taking notes. It’s not like when you are in school and you’re bent over a notebook writing down everything the professor says. But I see nothing wrong with having a sheet of paper out and jotting down something the interviewer says so you can ask about it later.

      I usually bring a copy of my resume, a blank sheet of paper and another sheet with my questions on it. The latter is tucked underneath my resume and I refer to it when the interviewer asks, “what questions do you have for me?”

    4. MaryMary*

      I take my notepad out of my purse when I sit down to start the interview. If you have a padfolio, it’s even more natural since you’d likely have a hard copy of your resume, references, maybe the job posting with you as well. If you’re worried about it being awkward, acknowledge it when you take out your notepad, “I hope you don’t mind I brought along a notepad, I find it helps me organize my thoughts.”

  26. Sharm*

    And now for a less controversial post (I hope) — if an employer touts their flexible telecommuting/work from home policies on their career page, is it legitimate to ask about how soon one could take it up at the offer stage? Generally, I see you need to wait and put in your dues for it. But if they are bragging about it outright as a reason to work there, AND you aren’t front line staff, is it reasonable to ask about it once they make an offer? What’s the optimal way to phrase it?

    1. straws*

      I work for company that does this, and I think it’s important to ask about. The key (for us anyway) is to make sure you’re not focused on just that aspect of the job. Which, if you’re not bringing it up until the offer stage, it doesn’t sound like you are. For us, the general policy is company wide, but the details are left up to the individual departments. So mentioning that you saw the perk on their career page and asking how it’s typically handle for your department/position and what the expectations are is a good way to start. If they don’t end up answering the ‘how soon’ question on their own, then you have the open dialogue to work it in at that point.

    2. Molly*

      I negotiated WFH time at the same time I negotiated my salary – as part of the initial offer. I didn’t bring it up until the offer had been made, though. I think during the interview process you don’t mention wanting to work from home, but after the offer has been made, you can negotiate anything you want (within reason.)

  27. Anonyby*

    Do you guys have any self-promotion tips for individuals with low self-confidence and that don’t like to put themselves out there?

    I’m currently job hunting, and I’ve completely bombed the couple of interviews I had due to self-confidence issues. (Granted there were also some other issues, like my previous job before my current one is really awkward to talk about.)

    1. Sharm*

      I struggle with this, so I don’t know how helpful I can be.

      One thing an old HR director told me was to stop thinking about how everyone else out there was better than me. (I do this basically every minute of every day.) She said to think instead about what makes me different, and use that as a selling point. I downplay so much of what I do, and it was useful to think, “Okay, I didn’t do A, B, and C, but I DID do X, Y, and Z, and they provide a totally different perspective in the following ways,” and then list out some examples.

      I don’t know if that helps you, but it was a good exercise for me to see how I could distinguish myself as a candidate.

      1. Anonyby*

        I think part of my problem is that my job isn’t the sort where there’s a lot of projects, or things you can point to and go “look how much better I did!”. I’m a receptionist. I mostly answer the phone, greet those coming in, and sort the mail. And my job before that is tricky, because I don’t really have proof of how I did there. The person who could speak best about it was (a)my mother, whom (b)has since passed away.

        I’m also having trouble getting past what I see as ‘failure points’, even if they’re not anything anyone would notice.

        1. MK*

          I think that you need to go beyond thinking “I’m ONLY a receptionist.” Receptionists, office assistants, etc. who are good at their jobs are lifesavers in any office, especially when stuff hits the fan or a deadline is looming. I wonder if you received any compliments from coworkers about your work skills (ex. organization, professionalism over the phone, etc.) Then you can highlight those things during an interview.

        2. nep*

          Not sure precisely what you mean by trouble getting past ‘failure points’. But if they’re things only you notice, it might be easier than you think to just stop breathing life into those negative thoughts. Those thoughts have got force only to the extent you give it to them. (Even if they were things others know about or would notice, so what? They do not define you or your abilities.)
          Agree with the other commenter. Sounds trite, but it really does make a difference not to compare yourself to others, and to focus on your particular positive points. I’m sure there is a lot to be said for how you’ve carried out your work as a receptionist, and that experience is important.
          Wishing you all the best.

        3. Anx*

          Failure points! Yes!

          For me, I have been underemployed for 6 years. I keep thinking I should have soooooo much to show for that time!

          I also have my college GPA which I’m not proud of. But you know my transcripts have never been requested? I never made it that far, but it’s not the thing that’s held me back except that I’ve allowed it to.

          1. Anonyby*

            I’m at four years underemployed, with a bad GPA too. And not much else to show for it, due to helping family and then struggling to cope with life issues. I recently applied to volunteer, but haven’t heard back…

        4. KrisL*

          If I were hiring a receptionist, I’d want someone reliable, who always had a smile for people coming in, who sounded professional and friendly on the phone, who sorted the mail correctly and wasn’t nosy, and who handle the fact that occasionally callers or visitors are obnoxious.

          Maybe you could talk about that kind of thing?

          It might be useful to think of a time when a visitor or caller was rude and how you handled it, so if an interviewer asks, you can explain.

    2. Liz*

      Don’t beat yourself up. I just got a job after six months of unemployment, start Monday. Yay. Be yourself, make eye contact. In this market, it is tough. You have my sympathy. The few interviews I managed to get were all different. If you can remember questions you were asked, practice answers to them, until you feel confident. Do you have some one you can mock interview with, using those questions? Also, the little things. Make sure your shoes are shined, smile. Also, as been pointed out here, people can sense desperation when you need job. Not saying this to make you feel bad. I had to learn to try to relax. Before I went in for the interview, I would tell myself that if this was where I was supposed to be, then those doors would open. If not, then help me deal with it, and move on. Hope this helps. Hang in there, I am rooting for you

    3. happy its friday!*

      Practice interviewing with a friend. More than once. It will become more natural and may put you at ease.

    4. Clinical Social Worker*

      Fake it till you make it. It sounds like horrible advice but really, you have to practice being confident and as you do that, feeling better about yourself will come through.

      Some really successful people have overcome extreme anxiety by basically inhabiting a “persona.” Imagine yourself as someone else, like Sterling Archer (who is supremely confident but kind of an ass) or Don Draper or James Bond or anyone really. Woman badasses include Olivia Pope, Hilary Clinton, Tina Fey. Move your body posture so that you aren’t curled over on yourself. Shoulders back, hands on your hips if you want. Stand with a somewhat wider stance. Head up, chin up. Practice this with people close to you, keep practicing. You can be any you that you want to be and if you want to be confident you just have to keep trying. It’s like any other skill, it requires lots of rehearsal.

    5. LQ*

      Pretend you’re describing your best friend who you love and want the best in the world for.

      This helps me tremendously. If I were describing a friend or a coworker I thought was really fantastic how would I describe them. It feels a little third person and weird, but it really helps to not feel like you’re talking about yourself that way.

      And then practice. Ask someone (and realize that you probably have a friend who would be upset if you didn’t ask them for help) even if they aren’t in the business of hiring if you mostly listen to the advice offered here (you can even provide them a list of questions to ask from the blog here) and just saying the positive things about yourself aloud to someone will really help.

    6. Jamie*

      I used to struggle with this – what helped me was taking some time before hand to see myself through the eyes of one of my old bosses who thought I was awesome.

      I’d kind of channel him and bring up stuff I knew he would bring up about me if he were touting my case – although in my voice, if that makes sense.

      You have to get outside of yourself and looking through the eyes of someone who thought highly of you, but not for personal reasons can really help.

      Like I’d never try to do this with my dad’s voice because no one would hire me because I was clearly the most adorable applicant ever and much smarter than everyone else – ever – and anyone who wouldn’t hire me on the spot is too stupid to work for.

      That’s the tape I ran in my head when I didn’t get a job – after the fact. :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, this is a great idea. Think of the times you have been complimented and use that as a spring board for your conversation. “Well, my boss said he felt I was very organized because I do a, b and c. And a person doing business with us felt that I was great at handling a difficult situation. Then there was the time Janice for the other department thanked me so much for helping her with a few small computer issues.”

        It’s not one comment but the string that gives people an idea of what it’s like to work with you. Pick comments that show a little bit of a range of abilities.

    7. KrisL*

      Maybe think about the company and how you could help them? Without sounding like you have *all* the answers, of course.

      Asking questions about what their perfect employee in this position might help – you can talk about what qualities you already have and what you are eager to learn.

  28. robot chick*

    A question for the consulting folks: What’s your experience with STEMers in your field? I know that math and even comp-sci and physics are often listed as possible backgrounds for entry level positions, but is that really a thing that happens, or just a “can’t hurt to leave in the ad”?
    Specifically, I’m looking at forensic technologies, which I’m certainly qualified for in terms of analytical and IT skills, but since I’m not the most competetive, ‘business-minded’ person, I’m a bit wary of jumping into a pool full of baby sharks with MBAs (assuming I even get in).
    I’ll apply either way, but preparation is everything, so I’d like some insight if you have it!

    1. AM*

      the firm i work for does like to hire people with science backgrounds, particularly MBAs with science backgrounds. if youre going into consulting with a BS/BA, you would likely be hired 1-3 levels below an MBA who is hired. so you’re not exactly competing with the MBAs. the reason that happens is to give the Bachelors hires a chance to develop some of the business skillset (that an MBA should have obtained in business school).

      1. robot chick*

        Well, I’m currently drafting a proposal for a MS thesis (fittingly, about fraud detection algorithms, in a programme that isn’t CS exactly but close enough). So tacking on a business degree isn’t really an option anymore.

    2. Jennifer*

      Most companies I’ve interviewed with for similar kinds of positions (math/computer background with the substance of the job can be more business/management oriented) have two tracks:
      1. project management, or
      2. technician/specialist/whatever you call it.
      They recruit people with potential to grow into the management aspects after they are proficient at the technical stuff, but usually there are a few people who don’t want to manage and just become really really good at the technical work. The second option is less advertised, probably because they want to be sure that those people are actually more useful specializing instead of generalizing, and that the business needs/can support that kind of specialist.

  29. anon17*

    What do you do about frequent mistakes from an employee? I mean, yes, address it, but how? Do you start double checking all of their work? That would prevent mistakes from going out the door, but doesn’t really address the problem of mistakes occurring in the first place. Is double checking subordinates an appropriate use of a supervisor’s time? Or would a better idea be to make time to discuss assignments with the employee and review their plan to successfully complete their assignments, pointing out areas they’re neglecting to consider, thus leading to mistakes?

    1. littlemoose*

      I think you first have to figure out why these mistakes are occurring. Is your employee overloaded with work or pressed for time? Is there a fundamental comprehension problem underlying these errors? I think a closed-door conversation with the employee (“Wakeen, I’ve noticed that your TPS reports have some spelling errors and formatting problems. (Gently provide a couple of specific examples.) It’s important for our TPS reports to be error-free, because the Bobs need to be able to distribute them timely without first needing to make corrections. What factors do you think might be contributing to these?”)
      Once you have the answer to those questions, you may be able to better assess how to remedy the problem. It might be as simple as having the employer wait a day and then review their work with fresh eyes before sending it out.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        +1 for Office Space reference at 8 a.m. on a Friday. I about spit my coffee when I got to “The Bobs need to…”

    2. LQ*

      I think an important thing here is to figure out which mistakes are critical to address first. A minor misspelling in an internal email even if they do it often? Let it go (for now, it is just easy sometimes to focus on the little things especially if they big ones are less tangible). Incorrect numbers to clients? Serious, focus on that.

      Helping create a plan, areas they are neglecting, creating checklists, making sure they are aware of mistakes etc.

      Also are they making the same mistakes over and over or is it a new mistake each time? If it is the same mistake then focusing on checklists, reasons they made the error etc will help a lot. If it is different mistakes can you dial back the work they do to make sure they are comfortable with each step before moving them forward to the new work?

      Someone on my team I’m responsible for training is making new mistakes all the time and it’s very frustrating but I pulled back on the tasks she was doing and it made me take a bunch of work back on that she’s supposed to do, but I don’t have to double check things. Now she’s making only minor errors that are expected and I’m making her correct them (this is HUGE for me, she needs to know how to resolve her problems). I’m giving her new little bits of work and she’s doing ok. It’s not quite the speed we were hoping she’d be at but it’s working.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Insist that the employee double check her own work.

      It’s hard to know what type of mistakes we are talking about. Are we talking about spelling errors or the employee planned an event and neglected to make arrangements for a guest speaker?
      I’m going to assume it’s closer to spelling error (frequently occuring mistakes).

      I feel that if you know mistakes are coming up regularly then you may have to do spot checks.
      But you can insist that for each recurring mistake the employee develop a plan to prevent that mistake in the future.

      There’s a fine line though- you can end up with an employee in melt down from being micromanaged or you can develop a fine employee. The difference is how heavy handed you are.

      I have to type in long numbers at work. I developed a system for it because I have to get it right even if I am in brain fade. I take the number three digits at time. Then, once I finish the number I go back and check- did I get the number right? Sure, it slows me down, but my numbers are correct 99.9% of the time. Makes the boss beam. Since these long numbers come up on a regular basis it was worth my while to get a system and stick to my system.
      It’s just human nature to make mistakes with long numbers. There are many other examples out there of tedious work that is so easy to screw up. Just point those times out to her and tell her that she will need a plan (work habit) to deal with it.

    4. meg*

      Most of my work involves reviewing what other businesses have done in their normal course of business. Everything seems to have at least one mistake, unless there are built-in QC procedures.

      If you need to reduce the error rate, and there are patterns to the errors, it makes sense to say “focus on a, b, or c.” If you need everything to be absolutely error-free (we need to do that in our line of business), then in addition to a conversation with the employee to reduce their error rate, you need to budget for quality control – be it having someone review the work, or replicate it independently (that’s what we do), or something else along those lines.

  30. anomnomnomimous*

    So I find myself in the enviable position of potentially maybe possibly having two job offers in the next week (both have informed me that I am a/the top candidate). The problem is that I much prefer one over the other, but the preferred company moves much more slowly, and I won’t know if I have an offer until after the second choice company has made their decision.

    Does anyone have any good tips for stalling? If my second choice does make an offer before my preferred company, how do I buy some time? And what are the rules for checking with the preferred company about their timeline or speeding up the process? Ack! A wonderful problem to have, certainly, but a problem nonetheless!

    1. ClaireS*

      If you get an offer from fast company, I’d call slow company and ask for an update on their timelines. Explain you have another offer but you want to be able to fully consider their potential offer before making a decision. If you’re their top candidate this may push them to speed their process up.

      For the other company, ask for a week to consider. I don’t know if you can ask for much more than that.

    2. Valar M.*

      There are several entries on this if you search the archives that will probably be more helpful than my answer but…
      You can ask to think about it, ask for a few days (within reason), and see what they say – they may or may not be open to it.
      You should contact the other company and tactfully let them know that you’ve been contacted with an offer from Company B, but that they, Company A, are your first choice and you are hoping to find out what the situation is (AAM has good advice on how exactly to state this in the archives).

      Then you have to figure out where to go from there given the information you get back from those two situations.

    3. Raven28*

      Aside from what everyone else has said, when this issue came up for me I asked for more information from Company A who had made the offer already: an offer letter, benefits package, etc. anything that would be a part of the negotiation process and benefits in writing so I could review everything prior to making a decision. Follow up with the second company and try to get a concrete answer on whether they are putting an offer together for you or still deciding who they want to make an offer to and what’s the timeline. Once I got the timeline, I sent a thank you to Company A letting them know that I would review everything and be back in touch with them within X days. Luckily, Company B’s timeline wasn’t too far fetched. Hope everything works out!!!

    4. Jen RO*

      I lied. I said I was on holiday with no access to email and I wanted to review the offer in detail when I got back. This bought me 4 more days and it was enough time for my preferred company to make me an offer.

  31. EE*

    Update from the wonderful world of local government where poor performers are unfirable:

    TUESDAY:

    Manager asks me to help junior worker to go through lots of old documents and update a spreadsheet based on status ahead of an afternoon meeting. I’m on doc work he’s on Excel work. I chivvy him along constantly (“OK, we’ll put that on the Query pile. Next one is N05566!”)

    We finish a little after 1 so I tell him he can clean up the classifications after lunch. I say I expect it’ll take less than 10 minutes.

    Three hours later he says it’s just about ready. We have our meeting.

    WEDNESDAY

    He calls in sick. Won’t be in til Monday apparently. I have to do his project instead and find that he’s copied duplicates everywhere.

    Manager tells me “oh yes, I should have warned you, you can’t let him do anything unsupervised. Not even moving rows from one sheet to another.”

    1. Ruffingit*

      OMG. That would drive me insane. What is the point of having an employee for whom you have to supervise every single step? That is not someone who is worth employing. UGH. How frustrating.

      1. EE*

        No, he seriously isn’t worth employing. The shocker is that he’s not yet on a PIP (will be soon, though).

          1. Jamie*

            Performance Improvement Plan. Usually written goals of what needs to be improved, a time line for improvement, and evaluation at that date. Spelled out is usually the consequence of not improving which can be termination.

      2. Windchime*

        It’s super frustrating. We have a person like this at work who doesn’t seem to understand anything we are doing. He can do some basic stuff but there isn’t a lot of “basic” stuff that we do in our jobs. He either just doesn’t understand or forgets a ton of things. For instance, after a bug is fixed, it’s supposed to be reassigned to the QA job so he can verify the fix. Pretty simple. Yet I came across a bug last week that he had just “fixed” (not really) and then closed. No QA.

        He’s been here for years and I don’t understand how that’s possible.

    2. LQ*

      So frustrating. I’m also in the land of No One Gets Fired. “Oh they’ll retire.” “They are 36!!”

      I have found that sometimes managers let you push very basic tasks to these people. (Making copies, stuffing folders, etc)

      1. EE*

        They are living in fantasyland if they think a 36-year-old who knows damn well they can’t get a reference for a new job is going to retire! Wow.

  32. WK*

    Okay, here’s one: Any suggestions as to how I can stop being “That Guy” at work? You know, the one who doesn’t really fit into the culture of the business and always says the thing that can be taken the wrong way?

    Background: I moved from a larger, fast-paced office to a smaller business in a smaller town, where literally everyone in the staff of about 20 (and I am being serious here) went to the same high school, albeit stretched over 20-30 years. I was hired for a normal position but was introduced to people as a dept head, probably due to the fact I have about almost 10 years worth of formal training and experience, whereas everyone else has only worked at this one office and only knows how they do things. (Some of which is sadly out of date!)
    When I started I really wanted to get things up to speed in our field, with the latest material and procedures, but there was a lot of resistance and I may have turned into That Guy, the one who gets really picky about little stuff and the one you never want to hear from.
    At my first review it was pointed out that my job skills are a 10 but my people skills are a 3! I kind of knew that, because I’m a big introvert most of the time and don’t particularly want to join the office clique, but I’ve been working hard on changing that.

    Unfortunately, a lot of that means dialing way back on the wanting to upgrade stuff, which I feel is detrimental to the business! What do you guys think?
    ~Is updating stuff a lost cause? The few changes I’ve tried to implement have been okayed by management but not supported by them. As in, “good idea” but when nobody follows the new procedures I’m met with a “whatever” shrug.
    ~Do I try to hang out more with my coworkers? Honestly, we don’t have anything in common, and I know I’d regard it as a chore, like I do most forced social interactions.
    ~Do I just give up and accept my That Guy fate? I’ve been working really hard at dialing it back, but due to the culture the newest hires (also from the same hometown) may have been warned to watch out for me! There’s a lot of backbiting that my coworkers say when they think people can’t hear them, and I’ve heard them say some pretty bad things about me (and others). And those people have been in their positions for the last 10+ years, so it’s not going to change anytime soon.

    I’d really like to stay in this job for a while, but if relations don’t improve I’m worried that they’ll dump the experienced newbie and stick with the old-fashioned familiar.

    1. Camellia*

      What does this mean: “I was hired for a normal position but was introduced to people as a dept head…” Are you or are you not a department head? And does that mean you manage these people..or not?

      That aside, as a contractor I have a lot of experience at being dropped into a new group and having to make it work. In the beginning I try to listen more than I talk. I learn a lot by doing this and don’t come of as the new person who thinks she knows better than those who have been there forever. If you started off telling them what they are doing “wrong”, which is often how people perceive “updating to new stuff”, you didn’t really get off on the right foot. Not sure you can correct this at this point, and also it doesn’t sound like it is a great fit for you. Why did you downsize?

    2. g*

      So are you in charge or not? Either way, I would say own it. Map out a plan for updating, and take it on steadily. If you are not the authority, then that plan needs to be on a slower pace.

      And try just being more friendly. That doesn’t mean you have to be buddy buddy (though who knows, by being more friendly, you may find someone that you want to be friends with) – but just be warmer.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      It sounds like you are pestering your bosses to implement changes they are not ready to make. My advice is to stop trying to get anything to improve for a while and just continue do your job well. Do not criticize your coworkers or complain to managers. You might be on thin ice so it’s a good idea to just try to blend into the background for the time being. You don’t have to be best friends with your coworkers – smiling and a bit of bland small talk can go a long way. I know it’s frustrating but if you want to stay at this job you probably need to adapt to their work style instead of the other way around.

    4. MJH*

      People will be a lot more receptive to changes if you have a good relationship with them and are friendly. Also if you can be clear why you are doing the things that you are insisting upon changing.

      But first, start with the relationship building. You will never love everyone in the office, but maybe you can find a few people who are extroverted and friendly and can be your wingpeople. If you find someone who is easy to talk to and seems to like everyone, start there. That way you can just ask questions, let them talk, and the conversation will be easy because they carry it!

      Questions are great! Small talk seems so annoying, but it is the grease that makes social interactions work. Start by asking “how was your weekend?” and innocuous stuff like that. Generally people will respond and be glad that you asked. You can mention that you saw a movie or played video games or whatever. Yay! People skills!

      Finally, start going out with them occasionally. Not every time, but sometimes. And don’t go with the “I’ll hate this” attitude, but with the “I need to get to know people and I can do this for an hour and it will help me improve my people skills.” You’re skill-building, not having a forced interaction. You can talk to a few people (you don’t have to be the center of the group or charm everyone) and have some good side conversations and excuse yourself after a drink or an hour.

      Once people actually know you, you have more leverage and influence. People skills are WAY underrated in keeping a job.

      (And clarifying who actually has the authority to make these things happen is important, too.)

    5. Ruffingit*

      This is your major problem right here The few changes I’ve tried to implement have been okayed by management but not supported by them.

      If management won’t support the changes, your hands are basically tied. You must have their support to be able to implement changes and you just don’t have it. I’ve been in that situation myself where I tried to implement needed changes, management was all gung-ho about how great it was, but then they refused to support it when no one followed procedures. Honestly, I just gave up because I came to realize that it really was OK if they didn’t do the most efficient things for their business. It’s THEIR business, not mine, so if it’s not running efficiently or effectively, that is on them.

      As for your fate as THAT GUY…I think you just need to accept that as well. I’m from a small town so I know the culture that you speak of. It’s not likely to change and in your shoes, I’d accept your fate and start looking for a position more in line with the culture and values you need in the workplace.

    6. Raven28*

      I’m not sure if I missed it, but how long have you been in your role with this new company? Seems it would be a good idea to continue to come up with great ideas for improvements, but keep them in a log and let them rest for a while. Work on your professional relationships, it’s easier to get people on board when you know their communication style.
      Also, the fact that management won’t support you is a huge flag. Above suggestion is only if you are intent on staying with this company. Which depending on how much time you’ve already invested, I would seriously question. It does not seem to be a good fit.

    7. Malissa*

      I was “that guy.” It freaking sucks. First thing, forget about personal acceptance, that’s up to them not you. Be an effective nice person to work with. Don’t give them gossip fodder. At work you need to be a saint. Also always have their back with outside forces.
      Personal stuff aside you need to look at the changes you want to bring on. Is there one that offers a clear advantage? Start with that. Talk to your coworkers and make sure they see the advantage. If somebody ever says, “wouldn’t it be great if we could do X” and X lines up with something on your list, take the opportunity and ask them what they think about the list item. Often you’ll get them on board with the change there.
      Change can happen, but it’s best to start slow and build your credibility first. Otherwise you are just the outsider with all those weird ideas from the big city.

    8. JamieG*

      You can be an introvert and not hang out with people outside of work, and still have good people skills! Smile. Say good morning. Make small talk if you’re walking in the same direction or something. The world (unfortunately) is full of forced social interactions, and it’s really useful to get good at them. If you’re used to going at a faster pace, you probably come across as being brusque, potentially to the point of rudeness. Remember that probably no one is in as much of a hurry as you are (even if you think they should be!), and it’s okay to spend five seconds on pleasantries if it will help you get your job done.

      (Once people’s opinions of you have raised, it’ll be more likely that they’ll listen to what you have to say. The only thing more annoying than a new guy bursting in and trying to change everything is a rude new guy bursting in and trying to change everything.)

    9. KrisL*

      My advice on trying to get people to try new things (getting up to speed sounds like they’re going to have to change what they’re used to):

      1. Explain what’s in it for them.
      2. Try not to let the change make much extra work for them.
      3. Let them have some input. Sometimes you may have a big goal, and other people may be very helpful on the little steps – they’re used to what they’re doing now and may have great input on how to switch.

      People are most likely to adopt new methods when they benefit by it, and they don’t have to do much to adopt the new methods.

      If you know someone who can tell you straight up what problems that people there find with your suggestions, this person is like gold. If you know what people don’t like, you can work on it.

      Also, start small if you can. If you get a track record of making changes, even small changes, that are consistently worthwhile, people will pay more attention to your suggestions.

  33. Just wondering*

    Am I limiting myself by not considering union environments? Every time I’ve worked at a place that was unionized, I was turned off by the antagonistic us versus them attitudes of my co-workers. I’m considering looking for a job in a warmer climate, but I’ve been tempted to dismiss anything unionized. I’m employed in education and I’ve stuck to private schools because of the negative impression I had from unionized public schools. Is this a reasonable personal preference, or am I throwing out half my opportunities for a bad reason.

    1. robot chick*

      this is at best marginally helpful because unions where I live are very different from the US (meaning I’m a bit suspicious of the American model too), but maybe you could try to view it as a sense of community among your potential colleagues, rather than antagonism. Maybe the culture you find in a specific workplace (and maybe even all or most of them) is in fact uncomfortably hostile, but I’d definitely give it a shot and try to challenge my own mindframe about it.

    2. BRR*

      I would give them a shot. It’s going to depend on where you work and in a lot of places I have found an us versus them mentality.

    3. Clinical Social Worker*

      I think this depends greatly on the culture of the place, not just unions generally. All my family have been union workers at one point (except my brother) and it really depends on the industory, political climate of the state, whether the general and local economies are doing well etc. In hard times unions often have to do a lot of cutting and try to fight to keep some things in place. It can get really ugly in those instances. But so it would in other environments as well.

    4. Gilby*

      I agree with the rest. I think it depends on job, company and union.

      My dad was union my whole life and I never even knew the impact of it because there was none. He went to work. Did his job. The company and the union did their stuff they needed to do.

      Other situations that I have seen upfront were not so agreeable.

      I would suggest getting some information about any union you are thinking of. Just see if you can find some information of how they negotiate with the company about stuff and how do they treat their members and so on.

    5. Joey*

      In a word, yes. Some companies welcome unions and use them as the vehicle to get employee input on employee related decisions. Those are probably the ones you’re looking for.

    6. Jamie*

      I personally would never work in a unionized environment if I had any other options – everyone is different.

    7. LQ*

      I think as a teacher it might be difficult because you are cutting out so many opportunities. (That said if you are looking toward southern states there is generally less unionization in them so you might be more likely to find schools without unions.)

      I work at a government that is unionized. I have mixed feelings. Some people have an us vs them attitude (those people btw are the people who would have been most likely to be fired if they didn’t have a union). But people in the group I’m in don’t have that attitude at all, even the union reps who work in this area.

      I’m going to say that in general it’s going to be like any work place, some good and some bad. Some places are going to deal with it well and it will be a boon, some won’t. Often places that don’t deal well are places that have other problems running throughout.

      1. AGirlCalledFriday*

        Fellow teacher here. The thing about unions (aka public school teachers) is that you get better pay, better hours, and more support. I love private schools but you normally have less funding – but also a bit more freedom.

        To be honest, it seems more like it depends on the neighborhood rather than private vs public. A small public school in a rural place is going to have more freedom and a better sense of community than one in a city.

  34. Powerpuff*

    My friend who works in IT (user support / maintaining servers etc) has damaged her hand. She can move it, but not with enough precision to type/build fiddly computer parts/accurately use a mouse. She’s not sure if its permanent yet. Do any IT types out there have suggestions about how to work around this?

    1. robot chick*

      ugh, that’s bad. I wish her a good and quick recovery.
      Worst case though:
      – Make the left (assuming she was right handed) your mouse hand. Doesn’t work for everyone and takes some practice, but is often easier than one would think once you’ve re-wired your muscle memory
      — can be extended to making the left your dominant in general, possibly to the point of doing fiddly tech stuffs. Maybe. Focusing on less hands-on support would probably be safer though.
      – Typing is harder, and I don’t see how she could do it without getting significantly slower, but depending on the nature of the damage, it might help to set the keyboard to a lower sensitivity, as in require holding each key for a moment before it registers (people with neural damage that makes them twitchy to that a lot).

      1. Fish Microwaver*

        Learn to use a mouse with her other hand. It’s a bit tricky but definitely possible.

      2. Camellia*

        Excellent points! I’m always surprised when people say they can’t learn to do things with their left hands, like use a mouse or apply mascara or eat. I’ve had musicians tell me that! To which I replied, oh, so you only play your guitar/clarinet/drums with your right hand? Think about this, people!

        1. Camellia*

          Also, the wrist brace used for carpal tunnel syndrome may be helpful. It keeps the wrist at the right angle but also naturally steadies the hand and limits hand movement a bit.

    2. V*

      There are one handed keyboards; she may want to look into those. Otherwise, just get as much practice as possible with the working hand on the keyboard and mouse; I would think that having custom ones (with adapters) that she could carry around would be a reasonable accommodation.

    3. MaryMary*

      Would a trackball be easier for her to use than a mouse? I have a coworker who had carpal tunnel, and she uses a trackball.

    4. Cat Tales*

      Have her see a hand therapist. Seriously. There are physical therapists that specialize in the hands, and a good one can help you recover every possible iota of functionality that is possible. I had bilateral carpal tunnel releases (ages ago) at a point when I wasn’t sure if I’d be able to work with my hands anymore (I work exclusively on a computer). Now I have few problems. The surgeries were obviously part of the success, but the therapy was actually more helpful in the long run. It took me from 70% to 98% functional.

  35. Sara M*

    How do I develop a strong work ethic?

    All my life, I’ve worked in “cog” jobs–menial, low-level, things below my ability. I was always one of a team of many people doing the same thing. It was easy to overachieve on everything I needed. Even in school, I didn’t have to work for anything I needed. (Please don’t judge me–I’m genuinely here for some help, please.)

    In those few cases where I had my own project, I set sky-high goals–and could often achieve them, though teachers or managers would sometimes guide me back to reasonable levels. But the reason I achieved so high is I was kind of showing off. I wasn’t doing it for the sake of hard work.

    Now I’m working for myself… and struggling constantly. Apparently what I learned is that “there’s always a shortcut, and it doesn’t matter what you do so much as what the bosses think you do.” All the people who post about “I’m so bored at work with nothing to do”–well, that’s just not in my experience. Being bored at work was the best thing ever. I could sit around and daydream about stuff.

    Somehow I missed the part where I develop a strong work ethic. I don’t know if I’ve never had one, or never developed it, or what. I always do exactly what’s required of me, plus enough more to receive lots of praise from managers. But I never really understood the part where I work hard for things I really want. (God, I feel dreadful just writing that sentence.)

    How do I convince myself that hard work is the only way, now that I’m working for myself? (I keep thinking, “Surely I just haven’t found the right shortcut yet.”) I’ve tried raising my expectations for myself, but that’s no help at all; without a manager to guide me back to sanity, I just end up with unrealistic goals that I can’t reach, and then I get mad and don’t want to work at all.

    Any ideas, please?

    1. Coco*

      I’m not sure what to suggest but you’re not the only one who feels this way. I don’t really have a strong work ethic, I’d much rather be bored than busy, and I’ve never been particularly ambitious. And that’s exactly why I wouldn’t ever want to work for myself. I like to do what’s required of me plus a little more and then go home.

      So I guess the situation you’re in right now is that what’s required of you has increased. When circumstances force me to work more than what I’m comfortable with, I set myself up for failure if I frame it as “I must work hard” because from my perspective I never work hard and therefore it must be an impossible task. Instead, I reframe it as “I must do what’s necessary.” I make a lot of lists of necessary things that need to get done. Sometimes I find shortcuts, sometimes I just have to trudge through it, but in any case, I do it because I NEED to — it has nothing to do with feeling “motivated” or being principled in any way.

      Maybe that’s a bad strategy but it works for me.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Are you sure lack of work ethic is your problem?

      I work insanely hard because I love what I do and a bunch of other people are depending on me. You say you are now working for yourself. Maybe that set up isn’t right for you – the problem isn’t you, the problem is that you aren’t cut out to thrive in that kind of environment.

      I don’t work for the sake of work. I work because I am driven and the things that drive me propel me through the icky stuff.

      Trying to make myself do anything is a fail.

      1. AVP*

        Co-signing on this here! I have a similar background – didn’t have to try very in school, had an easy time at easy jobs, chose a really hard field to get into because I assumed it would be easy as well, freelanced for a while and found it really difficult.

        What changed my situation was a) realizing I’m a terrible freelancer and work much better for other people than myself, and b) finding a job I love and a mentor I love. I have no willpower on my own, but knowing that I’m being trusted to do specific things, and people I respect are depending on me to get them done, and they are things I enjoy doing, gets me out of bed in the morning.

    3. Fish Microwaver*

      If there is one thing that drives me crazy it is looking busy for the sake of looking busy and busy but inefficient work processes. I feel I have a strong work ethic, although after your post I’m questioning what that is. I work hard when necessary and enjoy downtime when it comes along.

      I don’t think that shortcuts are necessarily slack. Sometimes it is wiser and better to work smarter.

    4. AnonAnalyst*

      I was going to say something similar to Wakeen’s Teapots. It doesn’t sound like you don’t have any work ethic – it sounds like you may need a more structured environment, which I don’t think is all that uncommon.

      In my current company, a portion of our team works as independent contractors offsite that we pay per assignment completed, so each person decides how much or how little work they want to complete (we put work out to the team and they decide who completes it, so it’s pretty much entirely self-driven). We’re pretty good at screening who will thrive in that type of role, but sometimes we misjudge and someone will come in and fail spectacularly because they don’t have goals set for them to meet or anyone overseeing their productivity. They were great employees in their former roles and always did awesome work when we gave them more structured projects to complete, but just weren’t able to succeed in the role that was more self-driven.

      I’ve always been pretty good at self-motivation so I don’t know how helpful any of these suggestions are, but is there a way you can start with small goals that are easier to meet, or set a series of smaller goals that will lead to the large goal of what you want to achieve? I don’t know what kind of work you do but maybe small goals like “spend X amount of time on Y today” or “complete X number of (tasks/output for the work you do) this week”? For me, at times when I’ve been feeling less motivated, that helps me get back on track, and the nice thing is that the small goals are achievable in a relatively short period of time so I feel like I’m making progress. It might be a way of incorporating the way you’re used to working (doing what’s required plus a little more) in a way that will help you succeed here, rather than starting with the huge, unrealistic goal where it seems like you’re destined to fail.

    5. C Average*

      Definitely no judging here. I’ve felt like this often, too. I think many people have.

      When you say you’re working for yourself, are you doing a type of work that you really feel has value, or are you just performing a trade to make money? I’m not saying one is better than the other, but one does offer more motivation–or at least DIFFERENT motivation–than the other.

      I don’t know if this will help you, but one thing I’ve learned about myself is that I’m a really good clutch player, but I have a hard time staying motivated when things are moving at a normal, non-urgent pace. I think it’s why I struggle with procrastination: if I wait until the last minute, everything feels urgent! and exciting!

      I also found a book that helped me define and address some of my work ethic issues. I actually read about it here. It’s called “Your Own Worst Enemy: Breaking the Habit of Adult Underachievement” and it’s by Ken Christian. It’s not that long, it’s an easy read, and it’s very constructive.

      And one more thing (this is kind of all over the map–sorry about that): It sounds like you’re really motivated by praise. That’s fine, and it’s good that you know that about yourself. Does the kind of work you’re doing for yourself give you access to positive feedback? If you really thrive on that kind of reward and you’re not getting it, it’s easy to feel unmotivated. Think about whether you’re getting the positive feedback you value. If you’re not, can you come to terms with that? Or do you need to find work or structure your current work in such a way that you get at least a little bit of positive feedback?

      Good luck.

      1. Sara M*

        I’ve ordered the book from my library. Thank you for the suggestion. It’s absurd to think I’m an underachiever given what I _have_ achieved… but I know I’m holding myself back, for sure. I want to get to the root of the problem.

        1. KrisL*

          Would it help if you gave yourself mini goals? Or found something that will be useful for work that you’re excited about?

    6. OriginalYup*

      Your post reminded me of an older post where a person wrote in about being an underachiever, and got lots of really good advice:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2012/08/when-youre-the-lazy-coworker.html

      It’s not the same situation you’re describing, but maybe some of the comments in both the original post and the later update would be helpful to you? The first step is acknowledging the problem, so you’re already on the right track. :)

    7. Eden*

      I freelanced for a very short while, and discovered this about myself: I’m not self-motivated. I need an environment where my motivations are extrinsic. I think it’s partly due to not having terrific self-esteem (I’m less worth working for than others), but also, I am more of a helper personality and get motivation from helping others. So after three months, I went back to working for someone else, and never looked back.

      My husband is the opposite. He is incredibly self-directed. He gets up at 5:30 or 6:00 am, raring to get started on the day’s work (I used to have to just drag myself out of bed). He worked for himself in construction for 20 years, then decided to pursue his other love, the less back-breaking field of web development. He would be miserable in an office environment like mine.

      At first, seeing how amazing he is at freelancing made me feel kind of bad about myself, I felt lazy and unmotivated looking back on my time freelancing. But the truth is, we’re just motivated by different things.

      What I’m trying to say is, if working for yourself is a “constant struggle” to keep yourself motivated, you might be happier in an environment where you don’t have to set your own work goals.

    8. Keri*

      I can really relate to this. I have always done well at work, but own projects are always neglected, and I really struggle with motivation for them. I think it may be more about a lack of accountability than a lack of work ethic.
      Since I struggle with this as well, I don’t know if I am the best person to give advice, but I have found that giving myself hard deadlines can help. Also, taking a chunk of time and making myself write down what I have actually achieved during it as a way to hold myself accountable.
      I’m sure others will have more solid advice, but I wanted to let you know you aren’t the only one who feels this way!

    9. Jamie*

      Doing good work because it’s satisfies your ego or makes you a high achiever isn’t the same as having a bad work ethic.

      The company doesn’t benefit more from the productivity of someone doing it for the noble cause of working for the sake of it and others like us ahemyou who do it to maintain the sense of self as high achievers status quo.

      I don’t need external praise, although an acknowledgement is appreciated, but I’m in competition with myself and meeting my own bar all the time. But if the quality of my work didn’t translate into how valued I felt as an employee (and I prefer more tangible forms of appreciation – and perks) I would not be happy.

      Sounds to me like you’re struggling with the structure of working for yourself – and I personally HATED it when I did it – never again. Works for some people very well, not everyone has the temperament or work style to do that well.

      1. Sara M*

        I really appreciate the comments and knowing I’m not the only person who feels this way.

        The comments about “maybe you need more structure” are spot-on. My struggle has been with health problems; it’s been enormously hard to structure my day when I have no idea how I’ll feel or what my sleep will be like. I don’t know how I’d go back to a regularly scheduled job; maybe, like so many things in my life, that’s something that older-me can’t do anymore.

        The comments on adult ADD from the other thread are exactly what I’m exploring with my therapist. I was astonished to take the quiz from Driven to Distraction and get a 56/100. I would never, ever have thought that. I thrived in school. But I suppose school had structure. I knew exactly what was expected of me and it was set by someone else.

        I wonder if it’s possible to hire a manager for a self-employed person. I bet I could get a mentor from the community of people in my business… but I’d have to have money, and right now (since I can’t get anything done) I don’t have any. :P

        1. Jamie*

          Not everyone with ADHD struggles in school – kids who are academically gifted can often compensate. And ADHD has core issues but manifests differently in different people.

          Before I got treatment I could function fine – I got to the director level in less than 5 years after entering the workforce, but now I can do it without having to work so freaking hard at it and it makes it easier to stay organized and not have to wait for the last minute hail marys to get stuff finished.

          And by treatment I’m not pushing meds – they work for some but other things are effective for other people like organizational tools and that kind of thing.

          No shame in it and if they had a cure tomorrow I wouldn’t take it – to me it’s never been a disorder, just a difference which can work for or against me depending on the situation. I’ve taught my kids it’s not something to run from – channel it and you’ll be ahead of the game.

          1. Sara M*

            I was/am most definitely academically gifted, with professors for parents. Now I’m wondering if all that helped mask mild ADD.

            Total procrastinator, and the only reason it hasn’t burned me sooner is that I’m good at panicking early.

            1. Anx*

              I see your name is Sara. If you haven’t already, research how girls and young women are often not diagnosed with ADHD. Girls tend to work harder to mask it, and academically gifted people also go undiagnosed.

              There’s also the possibility of not having ADHD but other real obstacles that early academic success can mask or contribute to: perfectionism, procrastination, lack of work skills and study skills, sleep issues

              1. Sara M*

                Sara is a pseud, but yes, I’m female.

                I definitely have perfectionism and sleep issues. That’s why I am not sure if ADD is my issue or not. I read the book and was surprised to see the behavior was a closer match than I expected… and especially, the “anxiety plus ADD” was a perfect match. (I have already been formally diagnosed with anxiety.)

                I’ll see my therapist again in July and we’ll talk more. I really don’t want another diagnosis and another prescription… but if it would help things, I’m all for it. (Or maybe I can learn to manage without medication; I seem to have gotten worse and worse over the last 10 years, so at some point, I _was_ handling this all somehow…)

                1. Anx*

                  I became self-aware this year and have not pursued a diagnosis or medication.

                  I can’t tell if it’s because I’m making progress in other areas or not, but just exploring resources for ADHD-PI has been very helpful.

                  I am a lot more confident about simply asking someone to repeat something or to let me write things down without worrying about seeming slow and incompetent. I wish I had been aware in college or while waitressing. There’s a tumblr “actuallyadhd” that is pretty helpful. I don’t take medications and I very well could just have sleep issues or have developed attention control issues as a result of not having try to learn as a kid. But changing little things has made a great improvement. I can’t wait to see how much better my work becomes when I’m fully employed.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Take up walking, every day even if it’s only for 10-15 minutes.
      You need the time to clear your head. It is amazing what that will do for you over time. It’s not just physical. It’s the mental strength to get out there and do it regularly.

      Okay ,so on one hand you had jobs that were totally boring and never used your skill sets. Now you have work that you take on too much and end up defeating yourself.

      (Wait. This sounds familar.)

      The key is what you do when you don’t want to work at all. IF you feed into that it will only snowball. And it will just be easier to feed into it the next time. I have had stuff that was dreadful- at least to me, maybe others could move right through it.
      Break it down into manageable parts. Promise yourself a quitting time and KEEP your promise to yourself. If you work beyond that time you are no different than that monster of a boss that has people working 80 hours a week. Stop. Start again the next day.

      Perhaps you are doing too much in isolation. It could be that you need to connect with peers doing similar work and find out what they are doing with their hurdles.

      There is nothing wrong with looking for effective short cuts as long as the work is done correctly/ethically. You should always look for easier ways to do things especially repetitive processes. There is actually intelligence and creativity involved in that. Take that habit of shortcutting and channel it into working effeciently. It’s not a big leap, I promise.

      Lastly, learn something more about goal setting. Using a silly example: I know it takes me 45 minutes to vacuum my house the way I like the job done. If I plan to vacuum, run three loads of laundry and do the dishes ONE HOUR before bed then this stuff will not get done. Period. This means I must plan better. Okay, so the next week I decide to vacuum and run one load of laundry. Whoops, forgot about budgeting time for the dryer and now I can either stay up later or do it in the morning. More adjustments.
      The same concepts apply to work. Once you get in the swing of how long it takes you to do something it you won’t be setting killer goals. (Hint: add to your time alloted to tasks for unforeseens, because there is always unforeseens.)

      I agree with other posters who said you sound pretty normal. I think a lot of people go through this, too.

  36. Henrietta Gondorf*

    I’m struggling with a situation involving my office leadership. (I work for the federal government, DoD.). My office director is extremely ill and has been out since March on extended medical leave. His replacement has been hired and will be here mid-July. There is no expectation that’ll he’ll return in advance of his replacement showing up. His deputy director (normally my immediate boss) has been filling in for the past few months and it’s not gone well. The deputy director is very junior to be taking on the senior role and has been really overwhelmed with both personal and professional issues. His leadership and management style isn’t a good fit with our office and he appears cowed when having to deal with personnel outside our office and within. I’ve lost a lot of respect for him based on how he’s chosen to handle a number of issues and am struggling in many cases not to say “oh, please just suck it up and enforce some reasonable boundaries for yourself and our office!”

    Here’s my question: I’m finding myself discounting a lot of his directives, suggestions and advice because of how he’s acquitted himself in this senior role. Come July, he’ll be my regular boss again and I don’t want to continue to resent his failures while acting as big boss. Any good strategies for letting go and trying to regain respect for a boss?

    1. ClaireS*

      This situation sucks. Can you try digging deep for some compassion for the guy? He was pushed into a role he wasn’t ready for and he floundered. That’s really got to be weighing on him and it probably makes it even harder to be effective in the role.

      Did you like him as a boss before this transition? Try to dig into the aspects you liked about his management style back then and hope that it all comes back once he’s got some weight off his shoulders.

    2. Clinical Social Worker*

      What are the things he does well? Are you grateful to him for anything? Being particularly understanding if you need time off, or whatever? Focus on those. I’m sure he has some redeeming qualities.

    3. Payroll Lady*

      I think the best way to handle this is to remember just what you said. He was not cut out for the Senior role, however was thrown into it and tried. If you did not have issues with him as your regular boss, you need to separate the issues from the senior position and virtually ignore that it happened. He was a good deputy director, and that is why he is going back to that position in which he was a good fit.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Just a shot in the dark here– but how is upper management viewing his leadership?
      I have seen times where upper management had a betting pool as to how long the new manager would last. (toxic, toxic place)

      The other thing I would be looking at is “Could this happen to me in years to come????” I know this does not really help with your question here, but in terms of CYA it might be good to have your eyes wide open.

    5. KrisL*

      One thing I try to do when I’m having a tough time with someone is to go Spock-like about it, at least through e-mail or when I’m thinking about it. What is logical? If you can channel Spock for a while, sometimes some of the frustration goes away.

  37. Exhozzled*

    Anybody changed roles within an organisation and have had to keep knocking back requests the the new member of staff?

    I went from HR (6 months) to HR and Office Manager (6 months) back to HR (role got bigger – 6 months) and am still getting contacted for everythng to do with the office – from cleaning to there is no milk to post. I hate post.

    I keep knocking it back to the Office Manager with a bit of humour attached – does anyone have any tips on how to do this?

    1. straws*

      I completely relate. I’ve had at least 5 role changes since I’ve been in our office manager role, but I still get stopped in the hallway or requests via email. Since this still happens to me, I’m not sure how great my advice is, but here’s what I do. If it’s an urgent request and the actual office manager isn’t readily available, I’ll do my best to either take care of it (if it’s quick) or find a quick-fix/patch (if it’s not). Anything else, I tell them that [name of office manager] handles that now and then explain the process for their particular issue (email, request form, etc.). I think it’s cut down for me, at least as far as the number of people who still do it.

      1. Exhozzled*

        :)

        That’s what I have been doing, but I am finding the opposite – the OM seems to be getting busier and busier due to her role growing and I fear I am starting to come off a bit ‘offish’ (not intentional) when pushing back to her.

        1. straws*

          I’m not sure there’s a way to avoid feeling that way. I’ve always been the problem solver type, so my instinct is to help and pushing back always feels unnatural. But, it’s her job and not yours. She may be busier, but I’m sure you’re busy too – with your actual job duties! It probably won’t help immediately, but adopting that as your internal mantra (“It’s not my job and that’s ok”). If she’s truly that busy & you work closely, it may be worth encouraging her to speak up about her workload. If she had the time & resources to cover all of the requests that keep coming to you, it might help you feel better about sending them along.

        2. g*

          I think you should talk with the OM on how to handle these requests. They are new, you’ve bounced about a bit – it seems natural that there will be some settling in time.

        3. Lily in NYC*

          How about responding to the person who made the request instead of just forwarding it to the new OM? Just remind the person that “Jane” is handling this stuff going forward and leave it up to him/her to contact Jane. That way it might stop happening so often and Jane won’t get frustrated (although you might be worrying unnecessarily about this – she probably understands).

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            This is what I wanted to say. Don’t forward anything unless it’s a really critical request, just reply “Sorry, Jane is the office manager now, she can help you with that.” Even for big-deal requests, if they’re emailed, reply to Juan telling him that Jane handles that now, but then CC Jane on it.

            1. Raven28*

              Yes, forwarding the request makes it seem like you are still the person to contact even if you are not completing the task. I have the same issue because I have changed roles so much within my organization.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      I totally feel you. I changed roles last fall, but things have been somewhat jumbled in terms of actual reassignment of responsibilities, and every other request for help seems to start with “I don’t know if this is your job anymore or not but…” after 6 months of this, I’ve gotten quite comfortable saying “actually, that’s Edwina’s department now.” If it’s an email I’ll usually reply but also forward the original message.

      It might help to send out a reminder memo clearly outlining the new division of responsibilities.

      “Who Ya Gonna Call?”
      Persephone Mulberry, ext. 123:
      –Task A
      –Task B
      –Task C
      Edwina Paperclip, ext. 456:
      –Task C
      –Task D
      –Task E

      We also have signs posted at strategic areas: “Fridge supplies running low? Notify Edwina at ext. 456” and “Copier questions? Contact Persephone at ext. 123”.

    3. AVP*

      I was the office manager three years ago and am still getting requests for pens, my boss’s car registration, lunch orders, etc etc. Try to remember that they’re not personal (people aren’t asking you as a secret signal that they think you’re not good at HR and should be doing office work instead. It’s just a reflex because they’re used to you being able to solve these problems).

      In addition to kicking these requests to the office manager, I would politely let the requester know that you’re not the person to ask in the future for this. You might think it’s obvious if they’re always asking Jane for an office supply request, and it’s being fulfilled by Bob, you’d think they would directly ask Bob next time – but all they’re seeing is that they ask Jane something and it gets done. So generally if it comes in email form, I will forward it to Bob and cc the requester with a note, “Hey Jim- Bob is actually handling this stuff now. Bob, can you take a look at the below and liaise directly with Jim?” If it keeps happening, you can be a little more pointed depending on who the person is. Couch it in terms of how it will help THEM if they ask the right person directly. “Hey Jim, you always ask me about the milk but actually I have to forward it to Bob to handle, since I’m full-time in HR now. So you know, if you ask him directly, we can skip a step and the milk appears faster!”

      It’s only been six months – not a whole lot of time for people who aren’t paying attention to staff changes.

  38. PX*

    Was thinking of asking Allison about this but might crowdsource first: I luckily have a fairly decent/non-crazy manager in an office environment that is fairly laidback/casual/egalitarian (I’m in Europe if that matters).

    During one of our extremely infrequent 1-to-1 sessions, my manager said that one of the things he would like is more feedback on how he is performing as a manager. I was honest (again, I realise how lucky I am after spending too much time here), and said I would find it hard to honestly be able to critique him on some of his shortcomings as a manager. He was disappointed and felt that this was something he should work on (approachability) as he thinks its important that we be able to give him honest feedback.

    So throwing this out there – would any of you give your boss honest feedback on how they perfom? (If it helps, imagine its impossible for them to fire you/otherwise make your life any harder as a result of your feedback) And if the answer is yes, how would you approach this (scripts welcome!)?

    1. Henrietta Gondorf*

      I’ve been asked this question and find it very difficult because I think that’s the kind of feedback that better comes from the boss’s managers. This is tricky if boss’s boss doesn’t give feedback or the boss is at the top of the food chain in some respect and there aren’t people either above him or in his division to help him with this.

      My own strategy has to been to talking about things the boss can fix (resourcing, keeping office meetings limited in duration and scope, setting clear goals, etc). Telling my boss he appears insecure in talking with the bigwigs isn’t going to be helpful, even if it’s true. If the question is taken as boss saying “how can I help you excel in your role?” vs “do people like me in the office?” I think it’s easier to avoid pitfalls.

      1. PX*

        Basically I dont think my boss’s boss gives useful feedback – not anything concerning actual management of people in any case!

        Thanks for the feedback. Some of it I think I could apply. I think part of my worry is there’s just a fundamental difference in how I personally would like to be managed vs. his management style. Also the fact that the last time he asked for feedback, I didnt really notice any change, so I feel like its a bit of a waste (with the potential to offend and upset what is otherwise a perfectly good working relationship…)

    2. Betsy*

      If you’re comfortable with this, ask him for more specific questions.

      I just finished reading “Thanks for the Feedback”, by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen, and they talk about the feedback trap that there are 3 kinds of feedback: affirmation (“you’re awesome!”), coaching (“these are two areas you could improve in, with advice about steps to take”), and evaluation (“compared to all managers I’ve ever had or seen, you are in the middle third of all managers.”)

      The danger in giving feedback to your boss, IMO, is of being asked for “feedback” and misreading what he wants to hear. If you ask, “When you say you want feedback, what exactly do you want to know about?” you can try to just what he really wants.

      “Well, how’m I doing? Are you happy?” -> “Oh, yeah! You’re doing great!”

      “What’s one thing you think I could do which would make it easier for you to perform your duties?” -> “Sometimes there’s a long turnaround on email responses. I understand that you have a full schedule, but if you had a more consistent email-response timeline, it would reduce my uncertainty.”

      I would never assume my boss was looking for evaluation, or give it if he was below the top third, so requests for evaluation would fall under the same category as affirmation for me, honestly.

      1. PX*

        Aha. Thanks for this, definitely things to think about and I shall tailor my approach accordingly :D

    3. ClaireS*

      I would frame it as “what you need to succeed” not a “what they need to get better at.” It’s a small difference that’s just semantics but it makes the conversation more comfortable.

      For example: “when this happened, you supported me this way and it worked really well.” Or “when this happened, I could really use support in x, y and z ways.”

      1. LMW*

        I was going to say the same thing! Instead of focusing on what he could do better or does well, why not look at what you need from your manager?
        I think part of being a good manager is being able to adapt to what your employees need from you, and that’s going to differ a little.

    4. Molly*

      Could you maybe think of it less as “Give me feedback on how I’m doing” and more as “How could we work together more efficiently?” and “What could I do to help streamline our work?”

      It might be easier to come up with things that way because a) they’re more specific than just “how am I doing”, b) there’s always something both of you could be doing more efficiently and to streamline your work, and c) it de-personalizes it a little, making it more about the work and less about your boss’s performance.

  39. Sarah*

    Strange advice

    I just started a new internal job. They’re looking to bring in new ideas to improve the department. There is one person doing the same job, and now it will also be me and also one new person. My trainer/ unofficial manager said to me that I should avoid speaking about my ideas in a small group, as someone else could takethe credit. He said that I should only speak about ideas in a meeting where notes are recorded. He said that otherwise someone can take credit for them. I tried probing but he wouldn’t elaborate. After thinking about this some more, I think what he may have been implying is to be wary of collaborating with the new guy.

    I am wondering your thoughts about anything below….
    A) Is it even reasonable/possible to only give ideas in a large group? How can you collaborate and be a good team if you’re constantly paranoid that someone will take your idea?
    B) Does this sound like normal advice that a manager would be giving?
    C) Has anyone else experienced having a colleague that you are afraid will take credit for your ideas? What did you do?

    Also just a note that the organization has a loose hierarchy.

    1. BRR*

      Could you make the ideas vague so that people get an impression of them but wouldn’t be able to steal them without more information?

    2. Betsy*

      This does NOT sound like normal advice that a manager would be giving. It sounds, honestly, like a nightmare place to work, where everyone’s focus is on receiving credit for their ideas as individuals instead of on doing the job. How they expect to get good ideas and results out of a group where apparently “success” for each individual is defined differently from “success” as a group — namely, group success is an improved department, but individual success is proposing an idea which is adopted.

      2. Sarah*

        Thank you for the validation! I really didn’t like his advice… I agree with you. It’s important for a group to collaborate and move the organization forward, rather than only focusing on individual achievements. :( It’s mostly this guy that is a bit defensive, rather than the organization as a whole. But I’m bothered b/c he is my main trainer for success in this role.

        He told me that he is having his own political issues and I think this may also have been a factor in him giving me this advice.

        Thank you so much for your feedback!!

    3. Camellia*

      Hmm, if “new guy” is new, how would this person know anything about them taking credit for other’s ideas?

      If it were me I would probably ignore this until it actually happened. Then you would know what you are dealing with. However, after any discussion it is a good idea to provide a recap by email. If you are truly concerned and want to be proactive, you could volunteer to do this and maybe list the discussion points by person.

      I do have a concern. You say there is only one person already doing this job, and you and ‘new guy’ are supposed to bring in new ideas to improve the department. Please make sure to handle this correctly so existing person doesn’t feel attacked. A

      1. Sarah*

        I like your idea to recap by email. I also like your suggestion not to take this to heart for the moment!

        I agree with you that it’s a concern. But she has also been requesting help with her role and wants others in the department. I do see that she will likely get defensive. I am treading lightly with her. :) Thanks. (I am avoiding discussing ‘new ideas’ when she is around. If you have any other specific suggestions that would be welcome.) Thanks so much for your helpful feedback!

        1. Camellia*

          “…bring in new ideas to the department.” is vague so I don’t know if this will help you or not, but I do have a couple of other suggestions.

          Have the existing processes/jobs/tasks been mapped out? Visio swim lanes or flowcharts are great for capturing the steps in any process or job. The existing person can and should help with that; we all feel better when ‘the experts’ know exactly what we do because there is less chance that they will try to change it to something stupid. Then you will have a thorough understanding of current practices and it should be easier to target areas for change.

          Also I would ask her if there are things that has been tried before and didn’t work. Again, this could help you avoid presenting a wonderful new idea, only to be told, guess what – it’s been tried before and didn’t work. Then you can probe further to find out if it REALLY had been tried and subsequently failed, or if it had been proposed but not really followed through, etc. This will also give you an idea of politics/bosses’ involvement, etc.

          And both of these will engage the current person and hopefully get her buy-in, participation, and support of any changes. After all, she had a part in creating it so why wouldn’t it be great?

          1. Sarah*

            Thanks, Camellia for the awesome suggestions! It’s a good idea to have conversations with her about our process and what has worked before. Also I am still struggling with the collaboration piece b/c my trainer is saying not to collaborate with the new guy. I would love to meet with everyone and speak about our ideas. I would invite the trainer, but I’m afraid that he may not be interested. I am so confused! Maybe I will try initiating a meeting with our 3 managers plus the trainer plus the new guy plus the current person to discuss the current process and ways that we can move forward. This whole thing about worrying about my credit is so bizarre.

            Thank you very much again for your insights!

    4. Kaz*

      Why is it so important that you get the credit for an idea? Does the person with the most ideas get an ice cream?

      Sounds like he may have felt his ideas were stolen in the past and that he wasn’t recognized as he feels he should have been. There are times when it’s good to get recognition for your ideas, but sometimes everybody needs to pitch in and the original creator of the idea gets lost in the shuffle.

    5. Befuddled Squirrel*

      Sounds like something that could happen in my workplace. It’s loosely organized and very competitive. This kind of culture can produce a lot of innovation, but it also can make it possible for some people to get ahead by taking credit for other people’s ideas and work. I would trust that your manager has your best interest at heart.

      That said, there are more ways to ensure credit for your ideas that what they recommended. In any workplace, documenting all of your ideas and work is a good practice whether or not it’s required. Start sending your manager weekly updates and include any ideas as part of your work. If there’s an internal blog or wiki where you can publish these reports, even better. Or use project management software.

      1. Sarah*

        Thanks for your feedback. Yes, I think in his strangeness he likely does have my interests at heart. (I do sometimes wonder what he is telling the new guy about me, though.. Maybe he is trying to make us competitive by isolating us from each other, although he says that we are not in competition.)

        I have documented my ideas. I have discussed a lot of them with managers informally before I officially started in this position. I thought about keeping the *full* list to myself for now. You think I should share it with the managers?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      There are some ideas that are small enough that it does not matter if you or Joe or Jane get credit for the idea. This is an angle to consider also.

      Like the others, I think that is a bit odd for your trainer to say. It could be HE is the one who is the idea thief and the others are normal people. You can always test the waters on simple ideas and see what happens. Then you will have a better feel for what will happen to your bigger ideas.
      You also have an opportunity because you say there is another new worker. This is a person who has not been indoctrinated into this bizarre system and is still nuetral. You can see what experiences she has and what she thinks.

      1. Sarah*

        I like your angle on this. He has been a bit manipulative in the past. I like your idea of starting with simple ideas. Now that I think of it, when I brought up a simple idea last week, the trainer said that it is not a priority right now. So there’s that. He is focused on what he wants to train me on rather than on changing our approach to things… Maybe it’ll just take some time or maybe he is also feeling a bit threatened.

  40. Virginian*

    Is anyone else applying long-distance for jobs? I’ve applied to several within my field (academia) and still haven’t heard anything. As a long-time reader of this site, I’m familiar with Alison’s advice. If there are any other hiring managers on here, what would make you consider an out-of-state candidate for an interview?

    1. BRR*

      When you say academia do you mean faculty positions? Because I imagine most candidates are out of area.

    2. Kaz*

      Within academia, assuming you’re applying for something specialized and not just secretarial/admin type work, they’re going to be pretty used to out of state candidates. I have a lot of friends who did Skype interviews first before an in-person – sometimes for a one-year position they didn’t even bother to meet in person.

    3. Sophia*

      If it’s for faculty positions they pretty much expect most, if not all, candidates to be out of state. Focus on your cover letter, cv, and other application materials

  41. straws*

    Any advice on how to deal with unintentionally creepy coworkers? I have an employee who is uncomfortable around an employee from another department. I don’t think it’s on purpose, but he tends to indirectly focus on her (using her name in examples, always sitting next to her in cross department meetings, etc). It’s never anything direct or threatening, and the specific instances could always be explained away by coincidence. For now, she’s content that I’m aware in case anything does escalate, but I feel like there should be more that I can do to help her feel more comfortable.

    1. Exhozzled*

      If it is making the employee uncomfortable to come to you, you need to take it seriously. I would get her to document everything and also keep an eye on it yourself. If you do notice it is happening too many times to be purely a coincidence, speak to him and tell him to back off a bit. If it continues you will need to take it further. Does he do it to any other employees or just her?

      I experienced this with a coworker who has now left and it was horrible and almost caused me to quit my job because I was that uncomfortable. This could build into a sexual harassment case if this continues.

      1. straws*

        I agree, it’s a really bad position to be in, so I want to make sure that the end result is that she’s comfortable working here. It does seem to be just her. I made sure that she’s involved in and ok with every step, and her main goal is to just ensure that these smaller issues are known as they come up. I respect her a lot for being mature, but also standing up for herself! I’ll double check to make sure she is keeping documentation. Hopefully it will just fizzle out, but that will be very important if it doesn’t.

    2. robot chick*

      I’d bring it up conversationally at some point, maybe when he mentions her, “You know, I never realized you and Jane were friends, but you also always sit toghether, don’t you? I wonder why she never mentioned anything…” and move on with the conversation.
      If it’s really unintentional, or he’s just genuinely bad with social cues (like Jane radiating discomfort) and trying to befriend her, he should take a hint (and probably be thankful for the nudge).
      If it’s less unintentional, he might still back off because then he knows people notice what he’s doing.
      Either way, you’re (more or less) putting the cards on the table with a minimum of awkwardness for all involved.

      1. straws*

        I like this! It touches on the part that was awkward for me: I don’t want to take a step into a sexual harassment accusation for something that really could be unintentional. I take that very seriously on both sides. A casual mention of the behavior seems like a really good first step that could potentially resolve the issue. Thanks!

        1. Del*

          Another similar thing could be if he uses Jane as an example for the millionth time, you could say “Hey, why don’t we leave Jane alone for a bit? Wakeen’s not gotten the spotlight lately, what if he’s the one [doing the example action]” Highlighting the behavior and turning it aside without treating it as a calling-him-out thing.

      2. Camellia*

        I don’t think I would use this phrasing. He may only hear “You and Jane are friends” and think that is a good thing, or that she feels that way.

        1. Mints*

          Yeah I’m not sure that would work. If he doesn’t see her discomfort, saying that they’re friends might actually make it worse, since it’s validating the (non)friendship.

          I like the example of “Let’s give Jane a break from all these hypotheticals. How about Khaleesi instead?” (If a joke is in order, a good fake name could work, or just a regular John Doe example if not)

          1. straws*

            I agree, I think this is more the way I’ll go if/when the opportunity arises. Although to be honest, there’s no reason why an actual staff member needs to be used for these examples. So the fake name or even just “the user” would suffice. Hopefully that will also prevent the focus from just shifting to someone else.

      3. Laura2*

        I don’t think it’s a good idea to mention this like it’s just an observation, especially if he lacks basic social awareness. He might just not get the hint at all. I think it’s important to be direct about these things, especially since it’s not just something the OP noticed, but something the coworker spoke to her about.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      Depending on your company culture and what you know about that employee’s relationship with his direct supervisor, I would either mention it to the employee casually, as above, or bring it up with the employee’s supervisor, as a from-one-manager-to-another head’s up. “Hey, Bob, I wanted to loop you in that Jane is becoming a little uncomfortable with the attention that Joe pays to her, like when he always sits next to her in meetings. I can mention it to him the next time I see him, unless you’d prefer to talk to him yourself.”

    4. The one with the creepy coworker...*

      If you’ve seen any of my posts in open threads over the last few weeks…know you should say something now and, unlike my workplace, KEEP ON IT if nothing changes. It doesn’t have to be accusatory exactly. Just more like “I don’t know if you’re aware, but you often use Jane as a focus, like for an example or this or that. It’s making her uncomfortable to be the focus we’d like that to stop.” It is still somewhat harsh sounding, but if it was just coincidence he should be apologetic, and if not he will now know that people are aware of what he’s doing. I wish more people had done that to our creepy workplace coworker.

      3. straws*

        Thank you for commenting! I’m glad to hear from someone with a similar situation. He’s definitely not crossing the lines that your coworker was/is, but I think he’s the personality type that he could get that way eventually and I really don’t want to see it escalate. I’m storing all documentation for now & am keeping an open communication with the uncomfortable employee. She knows she can talk to me any time, but especially for this. If it does come up again, I’ll definitely prepare myself to speak to him or his supervisor.

  42. Rebecca*

    I’m starting to think my manager’s bad management style is due to the start of dementia. I’ve worked for her for over 10 years, and the last 2 years she’s gotten progressively worse at managing, for no apparent reason.

    She forgets conversations. Then, when we bring them up, she says “send me an email”. When she doesn’t read that, she complains about the number of emails she has. She acts very proud of herself when she finally gets to something, 18 months later, and can’t understand why the need has passed and we don’t need to discuss the issue any longer.

    There have been a lot of procedural changes, and our team learns about them the hard way: when we continue to do things, then all of a sudden, another manager says “this changed 3 weeks ago – why aren’t you following the new procedure?” Sure enough, my manager acts all confused, says she’s sure she went over it, and tries to deflect the situation back on us.

    Then there’s the odd hiring practices. She hired someone completely unqualified for the job nearly 18 months ago because it would be neat to give someone like her a chance, this person is still struggling, and the solution was to lay off another person (?) which she told me about “confidentially”. That’s a whole other issue – don’t tell your direct reports that someone is getting the ax so they can look at that person day after day! It’s not fair!

    There are a ton more examples, but I think you get the picture.

    Has anyone else had this happen? What do we do? Is this something for HR, or her boss? She has our jobs in her hands, and I think this is something to proceed very carefully on.

    1. Betsy*

      Wow.

      This is a harsh situation. I would probably talk to HR, but only if I was prepared to look for a new job if things stayed the same. I would also focus less on the odd hiring practices, and more on the memory issues, since they’re less subjective:

      “This is a delicate situation, but someone needs to be informed of it. For the last few years, it seems as though Jane has been having some memory issues. She forgets conversations, doesn’t read emails, and doesn’t inform us of procedure changes. Up until around 2 years ago, she was a much better manager, but things are getting progressively worse, and it’s having a significant negative impact on the team. I don’t know the entire situation, of course, but I’m seeing a downward pattern, and I’m worried it will continue to deteriorate.”

      1. Rebecca*

        Exactly – I mean, how do you bring something like this up?

        I recognize these symptoms, as several older family members have succumbed to dementia, and this is exactly how it starts. They started forgetting things, and when you brought up that yes, we discussed this before, or this changed, then the defensiveness and deflecting started.

        My plan is to find another job, and if I get an exit interview with someone other than my manger, then I’ll bring it up.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Unfortunately, I think we can safely say that upper management doesn’t care. If they just don’t know what’s going on, then that still says that they don’t care enough about performance and efficiency to keep tabs on what this division/department is doing. HR might get involved if she’s becoming a huge liability to the company, by botching something huge, but it’ll probably take a huge disaster for them to take action.

    3. Joey*

      Talk to her boss: “I’m concerned about Jane.” Then explain everything you explained here. As long as you’re conveying that its a dramatic change, is out of character, an is impacting work in a big way that’s the supervisors cue to look into it herself and raise the performance issues and potential health problems with Jane .

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree about talking to the boss. Just list off the behaviors that you are seeing and the impact it is having on your work and the department’s work. I think you know to stay away from pointing to a particular diagnosis. But you could express concern that maybe she needs to see a doctor.
        I think when you list off what you have been seeing, that list alone will speak for itself.

  43. Betsy*

    Where do other women get decent business casual clothes? I keep trying to find a place that sells good trousers and skirts, but everywhere is either selling them for $100 and forcing me to roll the dice on quality, selling clothes that fall apart, or not selling anything that feels businessy enough.

    2. wesgerrr*

      I go to secondhand stores, the quality is good and it’s a fraction of the price of new business clothes.

      1. Chloe Silverado*

        +1. My mom runs a consignment shop and she frequently gets clothes from brands like Banana Republic, White House Black Market, Ann Taylor, J. Crew and Calvin Klein. Sometimes the clothes are new with tags. Look for second hand/consignment stores in neighborhoods that are a little more affluent – you’re more likely to find new with tags and high end items.

        I also recommend TJ Maxx and Marshalls. My sister just went to Marshalls with $100 and got 2 pairs of dress pants, 2 cardigans and 3 tops, all by name brands.

      2. C Average*

        +1. I’m a total brand snob, but never ever buy anything new. It can be done! I have a sort of route I take every few weeks that includes several nice secondhand stores. I find that if I stop by regularly, I can often find good stuff.

        1. Stephanie*

          You. I like you. I , too, have my consignment store route among the stores in the nice part of town.

    3. Chloe Silverado*

      I like Banana Republic and Express for pants and skirts. I’ve always had good luck with their clothes. If you sign up for their email lists they frequently send out coupons – I almost never pay full price.

      1. Diet Coke Addict*

        I love Banana Republic for pants. They’re amazingly sturdy if you treat them right. I lived in Express pants in high school and again: workhorses. Express usually has good sales as well.

    5. littlemoose*

      I love Gap’s trousers. They don’t have a huge selection, but they’ve got some nice basic styles (wider range of styles online). They’re machine washable and have held up well in my experience. Gap often has coupons or sales, especially online, so you can get some good deals.

      1. Miss C*

        As others have mentioned, Banana Republic is great! I find that Anthropologie often has steep discounts on their classic style pants in the sale section, especially in the fall/winter, and they are really good quality, usually with a tiny bit of twist (like an interesting piping or lining or something). They just don’t seem to be popular items at Anthropologie because there’s so much more eye candy!

        1. Stephanie*

          The good thing about Anthro, too, is that the inventory turns over so much, the item you like will probably on sale within a month.

    6. Anonymint*

      Banana Republic and J.Crew have GREAT sales – They’re actually having them right now! I got a gorgeous blazer at BR for $45 last night, along with a few nice skirts and a blouse. My total was just under $200.

      I put together a “wish list” in my head, and then when mid/higher end stores are having sales I just shop around until I find the right thing. J.Crew always has pencil skirts on sale (and their online outlet – J.Crew Factory – is very, very reasonable) and BR always has dresses and blouses on sale. Sometimes you can hit the jackpot and get a good blazer (usually in-store, not online).

      I love clothes but don’t have a very big budget and learned the hard way that you don’t ever have to pay full price (except in emergencies!) and eventually, everything goes on sale.

      1. AVP*

        I love the Madewell sales! They’re owned by J. Crew so the quality is pretty good, and they have a lot of uniquer-looking pieces that can be mixed with more traditional office clothes a few times a week.

    7. Valar M.*

      GAP. If you sign up for their email list, they regularly have sales for 30-40% off. So while their paints might be $70 originally, they end up being pretty affordable. The quality is pretty good in my experience, and definitely businessy enough.

    8. Persephone Mulberry*

      +1 to upscale resale shops and signing up for email lists for the brands you like. Filters (or the Gmail promotions tab) are super handy for dumping all those emails into a folder so they’re not cluttering up my inbox, and when I’m ready to shop I can quickly search that folder to see what offers I have available (if only I could program it to also delete them as they expire, I’d be in heaven!).

    9. Algae*

      I’ve had good luck with zulily for dresses and tops. And I kind of adopted a uniform for the last year – t-shirt, flyaway cardigan, scarf. A few cardigans aren’t expensive and I mostly found my scarves at TJ Maxx or on clearance.

      I’ve actually had a bit of luck with the thrift store for pants. I’m trying to lose weight, so I haven’t wanted to spend a lot of money on a size I hope not to wear more than 6 months.

    10. Allison*

      I’m young, so I can get away with shopping for work clothes at H&M. It probably helps that I don’t work in a super conservative field. Have you tried Kohl’s? I don’t always wear pants to work, but when I do, they come from Kohl’s.

    11. Sparrow*

      My got to places are Gap, Express, The Limited, Ann Taylor and Ann Taylor Loft. My favorit pair of black pants that I wear all the time are the Perfect Trouser from Gap. I did have a problem with the hem falling out, but some Stich Witch fixed it up.

      This may sound weird, but I also bought some dress pants from Victoria’s Secret. The Christie fit worked perfectly for me and they had petite lengths. It’s been a while, so I don’t know if they still carry them. I’ve got a pair of tan and gray pants fromVS that are wardrobe staples.

    12. Lucy*

      I’m a fan of Loft, but only when their stuff is on sale. I’m short (5’1) and their petites fit me well. They have 40% off sales fairly often- no excuse to pay full price for anything there!

    13. A Jane*

      Places like Marshalls, Ross, TJ Maxx, etc have decent business clothes, but you’ll need the patience to sort through the racks.

    14. Rana*

      Ann Taylor is also nice. (It’s the only place where I’ve ever been able to buy a suit off the rack and have it fit perfectly, save hemming, so I may be a bit biased.)

      1. Rana*

        Also, if you’re comfortable with online ordering for clothes, LandsEnd has a lot of well-made, classic business casual wear. It’s not trendy or cutting edge, but the quality’s high relative to price.

    16. JBeane*

      I’ve found the trick to getting good work clothes at low cost is to go to consignment or Cancer Society thrift stores in high income neighborhoods. I’ll often find name brand stuff with tags still on, and even the used clothes don’t look like they’ve been worn more than a few times. Last time I made the trip to a nice neighborhood I stopped by the Cancer Society thrift store and found a wool skirt and a cashmere sweater for a grand total of $3.50.

      1. Anx*

        Yes!

        Whenever I go home I go shopping at all the consignment stores.

        The ones in my economically depressed town are much more expensive and have designer or more thrift stop clothes. At home I can find better prices and selection for midrange stuff.

        I have about 5 pairs of work pants that cost less than $10 each.

    17. Kaz*

      Lands’ End is very good and also having a 30% off sale this weekend. Always check their clearance/reduced stuff too – that’s 30% off as well!

    18. Lisa*

      Ebay! Figure out which of the expensive brands you like & what size works best (either fits well as is or can be altered). Then go home and measure pants/skirts/jackets/tops you already own that fit well – lay them out flat & do side to side and up & down measurements. Then put in the brand name & the size on eBay & search by price. I really like brands like Nordstroms Classiques Entier and Lafayette 148 for professional clothing but can’t afford full retail, so gently-used or new pieces from eBay are my go-to. You can also pick up Banana Republic and Lord & Taylor private-label pieces this way, & even jackets from designers like Armani and Jaeger, if your tastes run that way. I bought at least a half dozen Armani black label jackets this year at an average price of $50 per…. vintage jackets can be altered or worn with dark wash jeans, and it’s a great look at not much money.

    19. hnl123*

      I subscribe to email lists for Ann Taylor, Loft, Limited, Ideeli and some others. They often have 50-70% off sales online and I have gotten my entire wardrobe this way, never paying any more than $25 for a single item. Most are less than $20, and I’ve received numerous compliments.

  44. Anonymous*

    I’ve had this come up a couple of times this year. What is the appropriate response when you have been asking an outside supplier/vendor for information/documents via email and they tell you that they were out for a family emergency? I speak to some every day, so it feels very cold to just ignore it and move on, as I have been doing. I worry that someone has died, etc. Any idea what to say that wouldn’t be weird over email?

    1. Chloe Silverado*

      I completely understand – I have 2 vendors that I talk to almost daily and to me they feel more like part of my team than outside vendors. When I’ve been in this situation, I’ve just responded with something like “I hope everything is ok!” and then move on. If they want to volunteer additional information they can, but if not they can just say “Thanks!” or ignore it and get back to business.

      1. Christine*

        I also respond with “Oh, no! I hope everything is OK!” I have a few that I’m closer to, that I might ask questions, but that’s more from a friendship perspective than a professional one.

  45. Sabrina*

    Alison always says “strong candidates have options” and I never do, so I guess I’m not a strong candidate. So, how do you fix that?

    1. Ali*

      Let me know if you find the solution. I’m dealing with the same thing. Except in my case I tend to feel like I’m a strong candidate (I’ve had interviews, employers do reference checks, etc.), and then I always lose out to someone else.

    2. Beebs*

      I keep receiving cues that I am a strong candidate, and my biased judgement agrees. But I have been struggling with the job search for some time.

      I am starting to wonder if there is a disconnect between the hiring process and the best candidate. Lately I have been seeing positions that I had looked into previously being reposted after about a year, and am also aware of industry turnover and candidates not working out.

    3. Colette*

      I’d check your resume – does it accurately reflect what you’ve done? Could you re-word it to make it stronger?

      What about former coworkers? Are they open to talking to you/putting you in touch with their contacts? If so, can you do that?

      When I was last unemployed (for 7 months), I had very few interviews – until the last month, when I had two different job offers. Sometimes it’s just luck.

      If you really believe you’re not a strong candidate, though, think about what you’re missing. Is there an important skill or credential you should get? Do you have a reputation for doing the bare minimum? Do you frequently have conflicts with your coworkers? Are you in an industry/career that’s dying?

      1. Sabrina*

        I’ve been told that my resume is good. And I’ve always gotten good reviews, been told that I work hard and am always willing to help out. I don’t have conflicts with coworkers. Mostly if I don’t like someone, I keep it to myself. Most of my experience is in AA and support type roles. I’d like to go in to Project Management. I’m not sure how to gear my resume towards that, since I’ve never done it formally.

        1. Colette*

          My thought is that making a shift in the type of role you’re going for makes you less of a strong candidate. Moving to a job you have no track record is means you aren’t a superstar at it, and it will be a little harder to find something.

          That doesn’t mean you’re not a great employee (or that you sh0udn’t try to change), just that this is new to you.

        2. Joey*

          Well strong candidates always have options isn’t exactly true all the time. Especially when there’s tons of strong candidates with similar skills.

          If you’re tryin to break into PM you need to look for any and every opportunity that’s likely to lead to PM. That might be looking for PM participation in your current role if possible or even looking at admin roles where you’d be working around a lot of PM’s. In other words don’t just look at PM roles, look at roles that can lead to PM roles.

    4. Tzippy*

      Although I’ve been volunteering rather regularly in my desired field for the 2 years since I’ve graduated, and have done 3 internships in it, no one has decided to hire me yet, after 2 years of constantly looking. I’ve had some crappy sales/telemarketing jobs in between that I hate and aren’t entirely related. I do get a LOT of interviews, so it’s not that. I think for me and a lot of people who’ve graduated in the last 5ish years, it’s that people with 5 years of relevant experience are taking entry level jobs, so it’s increasingly rare to find companies that will give someone their first chance. So there’s not nearly enough first chances for everyone, even if like me you have years of relevant volunteer experience and relevant internships. Also choosing PR which is super duper competitive probably doesn’t help – most people who also graduate with a PR degree 2 years ago aren’t employed in the field. Everything else I can think of that I might like and consider going back to school for is just as super duper competitive so I don’t know what to do (or how much longer I can last with sales jobs without a nervous breakdown) . I think sometimes there’s very little you can do to fix that, though I still recommend volunteering to all unemployed people I know, because it’s gotten me interviewed and I at least get to feel useful doing unpaid work I enjoy

      1. Anx*

        Sometimes I think it’s a just a numbers game.

        I really appreciate all of the work Alison has done here and the comment threads are invaluable. But at the end of the day, the advice here is only going to go so far and competition is fierce. Maybe I’m just making up excuses for myself, but I think my life depends on it.

        What scares me most is that after years of seeing people with 2-5 years paid experience filling the entry level jobs, I’m seeing a few more people starting to recruit for actual entry level jobs. But now I’m in a weird limbo where I’m not a new graduate and still don’t have experience, so I’m competing with both experience and youth. It’s very demoralizing.

        I actually feel sick this week because I have found the FIRST entry level job in the field I’m licensed in. They require some experience that I don’t have, but it’s only 1 more year instead of 2 or 3 so I’m going for it. It’s been FOUR years since I’ve been near eligible for an opening.

        2. Beebs*

          Just want to echo the sentiment about your life depending on it. I whole heartedly agree. I truly appreciate all of the advice and support I have been receiving and the encouragement that “something will happen eventually” – but that isn’t providing for me. Unfortunately this is a unique issue where your life and survival do depend on it, I am single and independent so I don’t have someone to rely on financially to support me. You spend so many years on the “right” path and then end up here, it doesn’t make any sense.

  46. Anon*

    I got let go from a very stressful position after 90 days for various reasons. Some of it was a bad culture fit. Just feeling depressed about.

    1. Doy*

      If you think you’re feeling depressed now, just think how bad you’d have felt if you were there for a year. Or two. Or three. All that stress, the bad fit, over and over and over, every day… and then trying to find another job after all the life has been sucked out of you…

      Make a list of all the wretched things you loathed about this job- big and small- while they are fresh in your mind. Then put it aside and spend the weekend doing little things to re-create your soul.

      Next week, look at the list and write out the opposite, positive things you will be looking for in your next job- you know what the deal breakers are now!- and happy hunting, eh?

      1. Anon*

        Good idea. Thanks :) The job was making me miserable and I was thinking of quitting anyway

    2. Lisa*

      Also, think about what made it stressful: was it the work or the culture? Was it the (lack of) effective management or were your preferred ways of being managed not happening? Good honest answers to those questions – and thinking back to any red flags that might have come up in the interview/first week – might help you avoid a similar situation in the future.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, this is a bummer. Bad job and then no job. Crap.

      When you can, try to refine your list of what you want in a job. Use it as a way of thinking about work and work places in a new more refined manner.

      For years I did not want to work for big companies with hundreds of people. I could not stand the idea of being a small fish in a big ocean, feeling like just another number. When I left said big company it was huge downer. But I knew before I started that I didn’t like big companies. Going forward, I had to be more deliberate about what I was choosing.

  47. Perpetua*

    Any tips for a newly-appointed one-woman HR department in a company of about 30-40 employees (mobile games industry)? :)

    1. ClaireS*

      Don’t be too rigid. At an old job (~30 people) we hired an outside hr contractor who instituted a bunch of rules and processes that appeared to be just because “that’s how things are done.” Take some time to learn the needs of the company before changing everything all around.

      When you do make changes, be transparent about why they are necessary.
      Good luck!

    2. Joey*

      Yes. Don’t just be the police. Look for ways you can maximize the discretionary effort of your folks in addition to minimizing legal exposure. This is the best way to add value. This means looking for ways to reward employees relative to their value. Of course that means there needs to be metrics and good benchmarks. Also, keep policies to a minimum.

    3. Chriama*

      I would also say make it a point to get to know the other employees really well. The junior people need to trust you to act professionally (not always confidential, but at least being forthright with them) and the managers need to respect you well enough to let you tell them when their hiring process stinks :p

      In a small company, HR will know a lot about each employee personally, so make sure you use professional discretion, never ever gossip (even about something seemingly harmless), and try not to learn things about your coworkers you don’t need to know (e.g. if someone turns medical forms in to you, only read the info you need in order to file it away properly/pass it off to the appropriate agency). Boundaries sometimes get blurred at small start-ups, especially if the culture has a lot of socialization/ pub nights/ company sports teams, etc. Since you’re privy to a lot of confidential information, make sure to stay really conscious of professional boundaries and don’t make friends with coworkers without establishing boundaries about work topics.

  48. EduStudent*

    Any suggestions on not feeling bad leaving work when it’s after 5pm and you have finished your work to do, but many coworkers are still there and not showing signs of winding down? (I can’t help them on their work for a few reasons.)

    1. MJH*

      If you have done your work for the day, there is really nothing wrong with leaving at 5 PM. So you can leave at 5 and feel bad, or leave at 5 and feel fine.

      Tell yourself you’ve done what you can and what you are paid for, and then go. You honestly don’t owe the company more than that. Also, the company wouldn’t hesitate to do what is best for their bottom line, etc., so you need to do what is best for you as a person.

    2. Befuddled Squirrel*

      I used to have a job like that. Sometimes I stayed late and pretended to be busy. Other times, I just left quietly when my work was done.

  49. evilintraining*

    I work at a company that, through employee word-of-mouth, has a large number of employees from one particular country. Many spent considerable time in refugee camps, where even basic hygiene was almost nonexistent. Even though there are signs posted and it’s been communicated verbally, there’s still an issue with people washing their feet in the bathroom sinks. Any other suggestions on how to stop this? We’re a food manufacturer, so it really is a big problem!

    1. nep*

      I gather this is part of ablutions for prayer? Are the washrooms set up in such a way that a foot-washing area could be created without too much expense?

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I think this is a company problem, not an employee problem. You have a lot of employees who need to wash their feet, so create a way for them to do that.

      1. MK*

        +1 The people who’re washing their feet seem to be practicing Muslims (not related to them being refugees). Not providing religious accommodations may lead to legal problems later on, so it’s in the interest of the company to address this is in a way that respects the employees’ beliefs and addresses any issues that the company may have regarding food manufacturing.

      2. Jamie*

        I disagree – I think the company should make it clear what’s not acceptable (the sinks) and the employees need to find a way to do what they need to do. Wipes, bring their own plastic basins – whatever.

        Religious accommodations doesn’t extend to providing, at company expense, the tools they need to practice their religion. If I did some Catholic ritual in my office on lunch they’d have to allow me to do it, but not provide the Holy Water or rosary or whatever.

        Why would the company be on the hook for any added expense?

        1. MK*

          I agree with you on a lot of what you said regarding 1) finding a middle ground and 2) not requiring employers to take on the financial burden of their employees’ religious beliefs. I’ve a background in civil rights law and am constantly amazed how many employers get into trouble by not providing common sense decency to their employees. I think that employers who have religious employees should try to understand religion 101 and then provide realistic solutions that satisfy the needs of both parties.

        2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Because it’s generally good practice to accommodate employees’ reasonable needs. I’m not suggesting that this is a legal issue, but rather a company that should respond to the reality of its workforce. Why not designate one sink for foot washing and set up a clean-up station (with extra towels/mop/etc.) to handle any spills (or something along those lines)?

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Sorry, didn’t quite finish. The company’s employee base has changed; the company should adjust to reflect those changes. Back before women worked, office buildings didn’t have ladies’ rooms; they changed. Before computers were common, offices didn’t have as many outlets; they changed. This feels the same to me.

            1. Jamie*

              I misunderstood and thought when you said it was an employer issue you meant legally – which you didn’t say so totally on me for reading it wrong.

              I guess where I see the difference is religion is highly personal. Yes, so is what we do in the bathroom but everyone, regardless of anything else, if you’re human you need access to a bathroom – that’s universal and religion is not.

              Outlets because electrical needs changed is a function of the business – not in deference to employees.

              Also, I have no idea how one would wash one’s feet in a sink without a huge mess and/or sitting on the counter. Logistically I just don’t get how it works, especially if you aren’t super limber. So to put a cleaning station in would, in my mind, mean putting in a lower sink which is redoing the plumbing.

              And I just don’t see how that would ever be an employer expense. It would be nice if they want to, but I don’t think there is any reason why it should be their problem.

              There are plastic basins you can get at any dollar store – employees could take care of this themselves in a cost effective way. Basin which holds the soap and towel when not in use.

              I’m not trying to be argumentative – I’m just really interested in the concept since seeing this as something the employer should address is something I am having a hard time understanding.

              But I’m happy to agree to disagree.

    3. Aunt Vixen*

      I may be missing something. Why is it worse to wash feet in bathroom sinks than to wash hands in bathroom sinks? Given what your hands get up to (in bathrooms especially) in between periods of handling food, I would think any concern about What Might Be Left In The Sink would be worse if Whatever It Is came off someone’s hands than off someone’s feet. And it’s a bathroom sink. If people were washing their feet in the kitchen sinks, I’d be right with you; but people shouldn’t wash their hands in commercial food-prep sinks, either, really – there should be dedicated handwashing stations.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        When this was an issue at a community college in Minneapolis, the problem was generally that because sinks aren’t designed for foot washing, water gets everywhere and the bathroom ends up messy. It’s not really a hygiene issue.

        1. Jamie*

          I don’t have experience with this, but if people go barefoot and then put shoes on to go to work bottoms of feet can get way filthier than your hands can in the course of a day.

          She mentioned there were hygene issues, so it’s possible it’s not just clean feet which have been in socks/shoes all day.

          I am a barefoot girl whenever possible and I wouldn’t wash my feet after that in a sink other people were using.

      3. Henrietta Gondorf*

        Damage to the sinks. When you put a significant portion of your body weight on the sink, it’ll pull away from the wall over time.

    4. CTO*

      Like the others have said, feet-washing is a critical aspect of the Muslim prayer ritual, which is performed several times a day. This practice is so important to its followers that posting a few signs won’t make people stop doing it.

      It would be in your company’s best interest to accommodate this religious practice and work together with the Muslim employees to find a solution that works for everyone. Employee buy-in will be far, far more likely to get results than signs and lectures. In my state, there are a lot of Islam-practicing refugees working in food manufacturing. Surely many of them have found some solutions that could be adopted at your company.

    5. AM*

      this won’t help your situation but just to add some context: as others have said many Muslims take the 5 daily prayers seriously and that means praying at work. I have prayed at work often and have tried to find a solution to this feet-in-the-sink problem. but the only other solution i’ve found is to use my hands to bring water to my feet and rinse them — which just leads to water on the floor, and i think a slippery floor is a much more dangerous outcome. sometimes i can use wet paper towels to wash my feet, but many bathrooms have only air dryers now.

      how is the feet washing getting in the way of your hand washing? are the sinks left really dirty? or is it just a problem because you’re not used to it?

    6. Lisa*

      Swap out a sink or two for bidets? Washing feet in a bidet has got to be safer as well…

    7. C Average*

      In the best possible world, where expense is not an issue, you’d deal with this by adding an employee shower or two to your facilities. Then not only could the foot-washers wash their feet, but the rest of the employees could get in a workout at lunch and have a place to clean up. We have showers here, and it’s really handy to have a place to clean up after going running or hitting the gym.

  50. Brigitha*

    I have a verbal offer for a job with an electrical contractor. I’m waiting on the completed job description and formal offer which they said I’d have by the end of the week. The position is basically an assistant to the owner and project manager (two separate people) and will consist of dealing with paperwork for proposals and operation manuals, double checking specs, editing corrected design documents, and organizing the project workflow. The position title is “Project Engineer”.

    My question is: is that the usual title for a position like this? My husband is a licensed civil engineer, and I know the term “engineer” is regulated. People get in trouble and fined for signing documents as an engineer when they’re not. I’m not sure the kind of organizing and paperwork I’ll be doing could accurately be described as “engineering” anyway. If this is the usual title for this position, then I don’t want to sound silly asking for a different one … but if it’s going to be problematic then I want to have that conversation once the formal offer is made.

    Am I over-thinking this?

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I think “Engineer” is an odd choice for an administrative-sounding job, but I can’t speak to the legalities of it. They were perhaps looking for something more authoritative than “Assistant” or “Coordinator” and defaulted to a common individual-contributor level title in their industry. If you’re uncomfortable with the title, I’d suggest “Project Specialist” as an alternative – that’s my title for a similar role (in a completely different industry).

    2. EE*

      The term “engineer” is not regulated in the US. The term “professional engineer” might be – that requires a licensing exam. Your husband’s field is an exception; most engineers do not take the licensing exam (varies by field, but e.g. only 3 people out of 300 engineers at my company have their PE).

      It is uncommon in my experience for jobs with engineer in their title to not require an engineering degree. It sounds more like you’d be an assistant project manager or something.

    3. MT*

      Engineer is only a regulated term in certain aspects. There are certain documents that the government requires a licensed engineer to be able to sign off on. Mostly civil and mechanical. The term engineer is soo generic anymore, that come trash collectors are now called sanitation engineers. I think that “project engineer” is not the correct title to use if you are not spearheading the project.

    4. Mints*

      In construction, I think it’s really common to have “project engineers,” but my impression was that it was like a project management role, more management than entry level
      I’d probably search Indeed for “project engineer” titles to see if it sounds like what you’re doing. Or maybe LinkedIn for people with that title so you can filter for industry. (Alternatives to search: Project Coordinator, Project Associate, Project Assistant)

    5. Glorified Plumber*

      Yes you are overthinking. :)

      Contractors routinely have folks in these “Project Engineer” roles who do everything you describe. They are TYPICALLY not engineers, and almost certainly do not work in an engineering design role.

      They are more best described as a project manager or some sort of construction manager. However, they will often interface with engineering documents (construction drawings, specifications, submittals, RFI’s, etc.).

      I work with MANY different contractors at a large large large client site, and there are MANY “Project Engineers”. I do not know a single one who does actual engineering design (completely not in their job description, that is what A&E firms are for).

      That said, said project engineers play an important role and can be paid quite well.

      Good luck in your new role!

      With regards to the other folks talking about “Engineer” as a protected title, I believe it is highly state dependent, and then also has lots to do with the services you are advertising.

      When I transferred offices my company prohibited me from putting “Process Engineer” in my signature until I had my PE in my new state. I had to put “Process Department” or some crap like that. While, when I lived and worked in a state 5 miles away, I was able to put “Process Engineer” on my signature with zero hulla-baloo despite no PE. Weird. I don’t know that anyone ever actually convinced me that “These are the rules…” just, I heard lots of squawking about “Engineers” in State 2.0, and none in State 1.0.

    6. Brigitha*

      Thanks so much for all the feedback! I just got the email … they gave the job to someone else who could start immediately. I’m bummed, but now I know more about the field and have a new title to search for openings in. Thanks again.

  51. Lunaire*

    My colleague is both obnoxious and gross. He’s nice, but everyone in our small office has started avoiding him because he comes over to your cubicle, ask a work-related question, then starts on a half-hour, if not more, monologue about his wife, his children, his dog, his weekend plans, etc., stealing valuable work time away from you. He doesn’t even get the hint to stop. Saying “I’m busy” doesn’t give him pause at all. Saying “I want to finish this now,” only makes him go “oh it won’t be long” and then he starts yapping away anyway. I’ve started wearing headphones at work, to no avail. I’ve tried to ignore him, but he just continues obliviously. I’ve asked to be separated from him and I have, but he keeps coming over anyway. It’s gotten so bad I’m tensing up and freezing every time I hear him get off his chair, because I do not want him to come to my desk and blabber away again. Last week I got so overwhelmed by suicidal thoughts at work from all the stress in my life, of which he is a major component, I had to get out and call 911 so they’d come get me before something happened and I spent the night under watch in the psychiatry ER.

    In addition to the above, now he comes to my desk to try and tries to get me to tell him how I feel today so he can give me wise advice on how to run my life.

    All this is not mentioning his gross habits like constantly eating his fungal nails and clearing his throat like he wants to spit out a loogie the size of my fist, and smelling like a toxic combo of B.O. and unwashed clothes all day every day.

    Am I justified in telling my boss about all this? I’m afraid to look like the whiny one and get fired, but I can’t stand it anymore. I don’t want to ever have to call 911 again. That was a pretty heartbreaking experience.

    1. nep*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this.
      More than justified in talking to your boss about this colleague.
      I hope you’ll get some relief soon — not just in this situation but more importantly in whatever else is going on that has you to the point of suicidal thoughts.

    2. Betsy*

      Oh, god. Are you me? I was RIGHT THERE with you, through all the awful conversation, the oversharing, the poor hygiene, the unwillingness to stop, and the incredible stress and helplessness that come from feeling like you’re trapped by this incredibly stressful guy who just has NO idea he’s doing it.

      Two steps:
      1. Monday morning, before he comes over to talk to you, go over and talk to him. Tell him, “Wakeen, our conversations every day are excessive. They’re taking up a lot of time, and you don’t respect my need to end them. I really need you to stop initiating non-work conversations.” Then, whenever he starts a personal conversation, remind him of this, put on your headphones, and turn away from him. NOTE: with my awful Wakeen, this literally felt like turning my back on an armed gunman. It was INCREDIBLE difficult, stressful, and terrifying. Do it anyway, if you can.

      2. If you doesn’t stop after this, then yes, tell your boss. “Jane, I’ve been having trouble with Wakeen lately. He keeps coming to my work area and talking to me about non-work topics, even when I tell him that I need him to stop so I can finish my work. I’ve been explicit and clear, and he is ignoring my requests that he wrap it up and leave. This often eats up a half-hour or more of my day. I try to ignore him and work anyway, but it’s not working. This is really interfering with my ability to do my job. Do you have any suggestions for how I should handle this?”

      Also, a piece of advice: Wakeen is not really nice. Wakeen is a guy who is taking advantage of the social norms which tell you not to say, “Fuck off, dude: I have told you 39 times not to pull this crap, and you are becoming crazy awful stalker dude.” He knows you don’t want to be in these conversations. He is just so desperate for conversation that he doesn’t care. You are a prop in his movie of Wakeen’s life. (Disclaimer: may be wrong. But it is best for you and, eventually, him if if you assume this is true)

      2. hildi*

        “Also, a piece of advice: Wakeen is not really nice. Wakeen is a guy who is taking advantage of the social norms…”

        I totally agree with this. People’s feelings and relationship are often default priorities for me. I care about what others think of me and how I make them feel. So I tend to avoid conflict when I should face it, etc. It’s taken me a long time to understand this concept that when you politely tell someone to back off and they don’t, then you are free from the burden of feeling bad about hurting their feelings. At that point, they are showing you that THEY don’t care about your feelings (if you did indeed communmicate them), so now you can be firmer, harder, much more assertive than you are comfortable with and it doesn’t matter what the other person thinks becuase they aren’t caring about you very much. Don’t know if that makes sense, but it was a revelation moment for me when I figured that out.

    3. Doy*

      You aren’t whiny when you go to your boss and ask for suggestions to deal with a co-worker who is interfering with your ability to get your work done. You’ve told him you’re busy, you’ve told him you’ve got things to do, and he won’t go away.

      He’s wasting your shareholders’ resources- it’s now up to your boss to get those resources (your time) back.

      And look for some type of counseling too, okay? You need an independent, sympathetic witness to your life.

    4. Colette*

      I’m sorry you’re struggling right now. I assume there’s more going on than the job, and I hope you are able to get help in dealing with everything.

      About your coworker, it sounds like you’re being nice rather than direct. Can you say things like “I need to work now, so I can’t talk” or “You are distracting me, so I need you to leave”?

      You may want to practice them a few times, but there’s nothing wrong with asking for what you need.

      1. Windchime*

        Yes, this. OP, because you are a nice person, you have been giving him polite hints that most people would understand. “I’m busy” and “I need to finish this” are statements that most of us would understand to mean, “Please go away so I can get back to work”. This guy is either ignoring your indirect requests or doesn’t understand that you are asking him to leave. So as Collette suggests, you may need to be more direct. “Fred, I’m busy and can’t talk so please leave.” It might be difficult, but it’s direct and if he still ignores you, then you can definitely tell the boss that you have directly asked him to leave and he won’t.

    5. C Average*

      Whoa. It sounds like you’ve got a lot going on beyond Oversharing Loogie Guy. I hope you’re getting some help.

      We had a dude like this who just did not get the hint, and I finally said to him something like this, “Look, please don’t take this wrong, but I’m feeling the need to have some firmer boundaries with you so I can focus on my work. I’d prefer to keep our conversations work-focused and to not hear so much about your life outside of work. I’m a very private person and this much sharing just isn’t comfortable for me. I hope you can respect that.”

      I actually wrote out and memorized the speech, and giving it was definitely not comfortable; I could actually feel my hands shaking. But he got it and understood it and we’ve had VERY little contact since, and it’s all been excruciatingly professional.

    6. Valar M.*

      You definitely need to tell your boss about this. At the point at which it escalated to you needing to call 911 – that means you need to have a conversation. I’ve had to do this before in the past, and I’ve always found as long as you’re careful with how you word things you won’t come across as whiny. Like others said you need to phrase it as a disruption in your work – keep note of the number of times and the amount of times he bothers you.

    7. Lunaire*

      Thank you very much for your answers and concern, everyone. I just want to add that yes, I am being followed by a psychologist and a psychiatrist and medicated to bring my morbid thoughts under control.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        When you get to the boss, let us know how it went, ok? And if the boss blows you off ask him who in the company will help you because this situation is over the top.

  52. The Maple Teacup*

    How do I ask to be assigned to different clients at work?

    Context. I work with adults who have disabilities as part of a community engagement program. When I took the job, I accepted the case load of the departing employee. One client is very far away from my house (30 km one way), has medical issues and a history of aggression. He has been very aggressive to family members, and hit at least three other staff. The individual does not do well in groups, so I pick him up from home instead of at the office. This has resulted in me feeling disconnected from my coworkers. I’d like to have this individual taken off my case load, but I’m not sure which reasons to give to my boss. Should I use the desire for a shorter commute? Wanting to work with a client who I have more in common with? Not wanting to be the next support staff he punches out?

    1. Fish Microwaver*

      The aggression towards staff would be a deal breaker for me. That’s the approach I would use.

      1. The Maple Teacup*

        To be sure that’s the most obvious reason. And my main one for wanting to have a different client. I’ve been hesitating to use it though because I knew his case history when first accepting the job three months ago. At the time I was unemployed, desperate and this job is full time and within my field. Didn’t think I had the stability to push back and say “you know, the risk of getting hit isn’t something I want to deal with.” But now I’ve passed my probation period and feel confident enough to request someone else.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This is an ongoing problem in that type of work.

      There are actually two inroads here.

      One is the agression. His meds can be changed AND you can request the prescence of another staff person. Not the answer you were looking for but hang on…

      Uh- are you approved to transport? If you are not properly licensed or certified that could be a consideration. The other thing would be are you transporting and not getting paid? Are you using your own vehicle? (your car insurance will not cover you) Do you have the ability to use radio or cell phone communication with your base for the entire trip? (if this indivudual needs help, how do you get help for him?)
      Since his agression seems to be escalating perhaps your program is no long suitable for him? (It’s abusive to put an individual in a program that is beyond their capacity.)

      Please don’t use the reasons you gave in your last paragraph. Those reasons, not only won’t work, but will tend to annoy others. That is because they all have the same worry from time to time. Sorry,that sounds mean- I really feel for you and want you to be able to get out of this situation. Use some of the questions I typed here, maybe find your own similar questions and go forward with this new group of questions.

  53. RG*

    Help!

    I’m only two jobs into the full-time professional world, so I’m not sure what’s expected here. A couple of you were really helpful last month with my question about how to handle my boss’s concerns about twentysomethings.

    My boss pulled me into a meeting yesterday and asked me to tell her if I’m looking for jobs. I’ve been in my current job about two years and I am casually looking.

    I normally would want to tell her, but I’m genuinely worried the work environment would get very unpleasant if I did. Still at this point, I don’t think I have a choice since I don’t want to lie to her. We’re following up next week.

    But in the meeting, she told me that she thought my former coworkers had been very selfish and unprofessional for not giving her more notice and leaving her “holding the bag”. They all gave 2-5 weeks notice. She then cited examples of previous coworkers who had left to go to grad school and given her 4-6 months notice as the most professional and what she would like me to emulate.

    How should I handle this? Obviously I can tell her I am looking but I can’t guarantee more than two weeks notice. My boss is somewhat volatile and the work environment strained. I have another manager between us but that person only started work last week. We’re a small organization so there’s no HR, etc.

    1. nep*

      Wow — it’s highly unfair that your boss would create such a difficult environment for you just because you’re searching.
      You should not be pressured to give more notice than is required and acceptable.
      Sounds like a tense and not-so-pleasant work situation (volatile boss, strained environment); hope it will work out for you to move on soon.

    2. BRR*

      The only way I would tell her is if you have seen people let her know and she doesn’t push them out the door. If that is an unknown I wouldn’t want to be the test subject. You risk being let go and for most people any job>no job. You could in theory tell her and if she appreciates and starts looking to fill your position so there’s no hole when you leave, what if you don’t have a new job and they want to bring someone on board. When I hear small organization I think not being able to carry an extra staff member.

      1. RG*

        I have some job security because the work we do takes about 6-8 months of training, realistically, and in a month I’ll be the only person besides my boss who’s been here more than two months. I understand that she’s very concerned about losing me before I can train our new hires. I am a little worried about being pushed out, but I do have some security.

        1. Christine*

          Leaving with less than 4-6 months’ notice is not unprofessional. Managing your business so that you cannot handle a standard notice period without significant strain, and badmouthing people who have left is poor management. I would not tell her.

        2. BRR*

          I wouldn’t really call that security. People tend to take emotions far more into consideration than they should when they leave a job. Your boss doesn’t sound like she’s creating an environment that encourages long periods of notice. If your boss is really worried about losing you will you not be allowed time off to interview? After the other people who are new have been there long enough, will she not be as worried about losing you?

          If you want to tell her you’re job searching that’s up to you but I would approach it as potentially being let go or at the very least being in a toxic work environment while you’re job hunting.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      If your boss is getting that stressed out about the idea of you leaving, then I can’t imaging how she would act if she KNEW you were leaving! I wouldn’t say anything. A good manager should be ready for people to leave and you don’t owe her more than a regular 2 week notice period.

    4. Sunflower*

      I would not admit to anything. What would the advantage be? In most situations, the advantage to telling your employer would be that your employer would give you time to interview and you could work together to find a new employee and you could train them. Do you see this happening in this situation?

      It sounds like she is guilting you. If she seemed more interested in making sure you were happy, I would maybe disclose to her but it sounds like she’s just going to get upset

    5. Tzippy*

      After a conversation like that I would look more aggressively. And still not tell her, and not give more than 2 weeks.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Wow. My standard answer to that question is “We all look from time to time, just to see what is out there and what the going rates of pay are.”

      Her real question was about the notice. “Oh, so your real concern about the notice period. Maybe you can send around an email suggesting that in the future this would be helpful.”
      And let the cookie crumble where it will on that one.

  54. Leeloo*

    I posted in last week’s open thread about a sudden and exciting change in role, from a low level part-time temporary position to an upper level position that I honestly didn’t dare to hope for because it’s in such a small organization that doesn’t usually have much turnover.

    As with most transitions, there are some growing pains. The position I’m moving into is actually the one my former supervisor is leaving (for another organization). She has never been the best manager, but the ways I’m having to deal with her now are bringing it out in a whole new light. She’s condescending and dismissive of the idea that I could perform the job duties adequately. I will be training with her and gleaning what I can about the job in the next couple of weeks. To contrast, the head of the unit has been very supportive and positive about my skills and abilities as a match for this role, even though she and I are both clear that I don’t have a depth of experience behind me (my outgoing supervisor did not have that when she started in this role, either).

    Any advice on dealing with blatant disrespect and disregard from someone in this kind of situation? At this point I’m just taking it, holding my tongue, and thanking my lucky stars that she’s moving on to another organization rather than moving up the ladder at this one.

      1. Leeloo*

        Thank you. I feel like I need to put that old motivational “hang in there” kitten poster as my phone background or something.

    2. Kaz*

      The best thing to do is just be as good as you can. I would bet that she is hoping you fail because if someone like you could do her job, what does that say about her?

      Only you can know if this is at all a good idea, but you could also take the “you’ve been here before, can you give me some advice on x?” route. There’s actually been research showing that if you ask for favors from someone, borrow things, etc, that person will actually start to like you more.

      1. Leeloo*

        Yes! I want to think she isn’t actually hoping I would fail, but that fits all too well with how she seems to approach things. Ego does seem important to her in ways that are sort of alien to me, so dealing with her more from a place of “I need your input/advice” might work for her.

        This also makes me wonder if she’s now feeling like I curried favor with the unit head to “take” the position… even though she’s leaving it. But given how she acts, I think she might previously have been in really cutthroat environments where that kind of thinking would make sense.

    3. Darth Admin*

      You’re doing the right thing. Grin and bear it for now, and remember she’ll be gone soon. Also, a fave phrase: “Thank you, I’ll consider that.” Doesn’t mean you’re going to do anything, and handy for shutting down unproductive conversations.

      Good luck!

      1. Leeloo*

        Ah! Excellent phrase, along with it’s cousins/offspring “Wow, that sounds really frustrating.” (when it sounds like no big deal to me but clearly is to her) and “Ok, I’ll definitely remember you said that when X does Y.”

    4. Jamie*

      You’re doing just fine – hold your tongue she’ll be gone soon. And listen – you don’t have to agree or like it but the stuff about the job she talks about, file it away for later because the more you know about her mindset the more understanding you’ll have of the status quo before you make changes.

      And sometimes people have inside info just from doing the job. Weird example, but when we bought our house I mentioned to my DH that I wanted to put our bed against the other wall because it was weird the way they had it. Owner overheard me and said yeah, it looks weird but it doesn’t work the other way – it’s too awkward.

      Yeah, yeah – did it my way and she was right – made everything else super awkward. There is no way to arrange furniture properly in that room. So keep your ears open.

      1. Leeloo*

        Oh, absolutely. I’m not interested in dismissing anything she has to share with me, especially since we have very little time to pass on what she’s put together over her time in the position. She definitely has inside info, and has mentioned a lot of things like “Yeah, this person we work with always has tech problems for no apparent reason, just look out for that” and I am here to pick up any of that I can.

        It’s just when it turns to “And this took me a REALLY long time to figure out how to make this work” when it seems like a pretty low-effort fix- well, like you said, I can just keep my mouth shut and my ears open.

    5. KrisL*

      Yeah, hang in there. If there’s any way you can honestly compliment her or ask for her advice, do it. I hate to say that, because it sounds like rewarding her for meanness, but it’s funny how people sometimes change their attitude if you do this type of thing.

      1. Leeloo*

        Great idea. I don’t know if she’ll value compliments from me, given how little she seems to think of me, but they can’t hurt. At this point, I’m happy to try anything as long as it doesn’t have much potential to backfire on my relationship with my coworkers who aren’t leaving, and appealing to her ego is definitely a low-risk option. :)

  55. Diet Coke Addict*

    My ridiculous job continues to spiral down the drain. One coworker quit without notice, going back to his old job which featured a promotion and a $7/hour raise. My other coworker in this department is going on mat leave in about a month. Our technician has been flat-out refusing to do work, and my boss keeps “suggesting” he do things, which the technician ignores. (How is this place still functional???) Our admin person has been coming in hours late and taking extra-long lunches on the clock, and my boss won’t reprimand anyone.

    Additionally, a customer of ours received a damaged shipment this week, and my boss’s solution was to send them replacement parts and paint and fix it themselves.

    The job search is going well, but I’m absolutely on tenterhooks waiting for a phone call and deliberating about what to say in an interview when I’ve been here just shy of a year. I have lots of options! (No room for growth, I don’t care for sales, I want to get back into my field, and the negatives: the business is having cash flow problems, our pay rate has changed, etc.)

    1. ArtsNerd*

      Talk about company’s cash flow problems, and getting back into your field second. “My current employer is experiencing cash-flow issues, and I’m looking for something more stable – and in my chosen field.” I don’t think any reasonable interviewer will take issue with that.

      “No room for growth,” on the other hand, isn’t a good answer for a short-term role. And “I don’t care for sales” isn’t nearly as compelling as the first two – assuming you accepted the job knowing it was in sales.

    2. Tzippy*

      I think saying I want to get back to my field implies that you don’t care for whatever field you’re currently in as much :)

      What if you weren’t aware all along it was a sales job? I was hired a few months ago for an Office Assistant role that in the job description, interview and offer sounded very administrative. One week after starting I find out it’s 100% sales from now on. Seems like a reasonable reason why i’m looking after 4 months, but I don’t know how to say in the most professional way that the job I’m doing is not what I was hired for.

    3. Befuddled Squirrel*

      Don’t say anything negative in an interview! If you have to, phrase it positively. “I want to be at a company with an excellent reputation for financial stability,” not, “I’m leaving because of cash flow problems.”

      Ideally, just talk the work you’d be doing at the job you’re applying for and what you like about that company. Focus on what you’d be gaining, not what you’d be leaving behind.

  56. a.n.o.n.*

    How do people feel about their CEO and how does that affect your happiness at work? Do you need to have a CEO you can get behind 100% and feel a connection with them, or does it not really make a difference to you?

    Since I’m still in the job I don’t want to be in, and I’m missing my former start-up environment, it’s caused me to think more about what I need to make me happy. I’ve realized that having a CEO I can get behind, talk to everyday (mostly), and feel respect for and loyalty to is extrememly important to me. I had already been thinking about this, since this is a bigger company and there’s no real contact with the CEO; he’s in an office 40 miles away and never visits this office. But some issues came to light very recently about our him and it’s made me realize I can’t work at a company lead by someone like this. I long for the atmosphere of the other company I’m trying to get into (I’ll be calling them soon!). I’d see the CEO everyday, I’d report to him, and be able to build a nice working relationship.

    I’m probably not putting this into the right words, but hopefully you get the gist of it.

    1. Sparrow*

      I work in a very large corporation and our CEOs (they have changed through the years) have always been in different states. They are so far removed from me, it’s not even possible to develop a personal relationship with them. I’ve never even met them in person.

      So for me, the CEO doesn’t make a difference or impact my daily job. Having a good rapport with my direct manager is what’s most important to me.

    2. A Jane*

      You know, it’s not something that is top of mind when it comes to work satisfaction, but having the idea of an accessible CEO is something that does impact how I feel about the company. Even if the interaction is superficial, like giving a hello nod, it at least makes me feel like a person.

      I also really appreciate it when offsite management or even regional sales people say hello to the people in the office. It’s always weird when some random person walks in and only talks to some of the other management.

      1. a.n.o.n.*

        Yes, that’s what I was trying to convey. I don’t feel like a person; I feel like a number or a body. We never see the CEO. He never stops by to visit any of the locations and no one hears from him except at the quarterly staff meeting.

    3. LMW*

      Hmm… I think this does make a difference to some degree. But I’d think “leaders” in general instead of CEO.
      When I worked at a smaller company (300+ employees), someone from the leadership team hand delivered paystubs every week. It rotated, and it might seem like a waste of time for upper management, but it meant the leaders knew the name, role and face of every employee. And it meant we all knew them on a personal, conversational level. I can’t say I liked them all, but I really liked a few of them a lot, and it made a difference in how we thought of the leaders, because we all had access to them.
      When I moved to the corporate world, it was really different to not have that type of access! At my last company, half the time I wasn’t allowed to reach out to someone at a higher level in a different department. I had to escalate to my VP, who would reach out to that VP…everything took so long. The leaders seemed really distant and they didn’t seem to care about employees.
      At my current job, at a huge corporation (40,000 in my division alone), I’ve never personally met the CEO, but I can see that he’s trying really hard to be accessible and share things with employees on our intranet or social media. It’s not the same as that face-to-face interaction, but I respect the effort. In the mean time though, I NEVER meet leaders even one level above my boss, so I feel like a cog in a machine sometime. I like my job, boss and coworkers, but it’s a weird feeling to know that all the big decisions are made by people who have no access to on-the-ground workers. It often makes me miss working for a smaller company.

      1. a.n.o.n.*

        This. All of this.

        Our CEO doesn’t seem to make any effort. Granted, I’ve only been here 4 months so maybe it’s not enough time to see it, but I think it’s telling that I haven’t yet found one employee that seems to be happy here. All I ever hear are complaints. Yeah, some I think are just petty, but I think others have some meat to them.

        Yes, it’s tough to not have access to anyone above my boss. Things do seem to take a long time here. And we only have 120 employees. It’s just a very different atmosphere.

    4. LQ*

      We had someone come into our (governmental) org and ask about meeting our top muckity muck. She’s a political appointee in charge of a department of a thousands. It struck me as very much that the person didn’t sort of understand the basics of business. No one likes to feel like a cog but if you are an entry level employee in an org with thousands of people wouldn’t you want the top brass to have something more important to do that meet with you?

      That said it would be very different if the top brass was your direct boss.

      (Before this I worked at a tiny tiny org with a number of people I could count on one hand. I knew everyone there but I don’t feel like I was more or less appreciated because of it.)

  57. Kay*

    So I just started working at a staffing agency and they keep telling me that it’s illegal to call any references that are not listed by the candidates. That just doesn’t seem right to me. Does anyone know of any rules that would dictate this? I’m in NY if that matters

    2. AndersonDarling*

      It’s not illegal, but it may be their policy. They may want to make their life easier by only calling the good references. If you dig deeper, your candidate pool may shrink.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Regardless of legality, why would you want to do this? I would be so pissed if a staffing agency called someone I didn’t give them as a reference.

      1. Joey*

        It makes sense though a lot of times doesn’t it? If you didn’t list your former boss as a reference that’s going to make me want to talk to her more.

      2. AVP*

        Does it make a difference if it’s not a staffing agency? I call references all the time that haven’t been expressly approved by the candidate, and Alison has given that as a recommendation. (Not the applicant’s current employer, of course!)

        Reasons for doing this: sometimes I know the person and want their input. Sometimes there’s something shady about the way a job is listed on a resume and I want to get to the bottom of it. Sometimes the references given are odd, or incomplete, and I need a bigger picture. Or the references given can speak to one angle of a person’s performance, but I;m hiring them to do a different function, and need a reference for that.

      3. LQ*

        Why would you be upset? (Assuming they aren’t calling your current employer.) The reason for an employer to do this is to get the full story of someone. Same reason as an employee I get to ask around and try to find out what the business is really like as an employer. I want not just the sugar coated version they give me. I want the full story.

    4. Anon4This*

      Why would you want to do this? I understand asking a friend, coworker or personal acquaintance about an applicant. However, if I list a former boss on my application and ask that you don’t contact that person. I like to think that your agency would respect that request.

      I no longer list my former manager as a reference because I testified against his brother-in-law and best buddy in an internal hearing. As a result of this testimony, his buddy lost his job. Needless to say, he told me that he would no longer be my reference because he could no longer be objective about me.

      I imagine that people who had abusive, violent or crazy managers would not list them as references.

  58. Loquaciousaych*

    I would like to apply for a job that I am SUPER excited about. However, absolutely NONE of my professional experience is relevant to the job or my ability to do well at it. All of the “experience” I have that relates to the job is volunteer or due to owning and operating a small family business.

    My background really meets the qualifications, but I have never been PAID to do this work. I have always done it because I am passionate about it and it’s pretty much who I am.

    If it helps, the job is a combination of social services and volunteer organization; both of which I have extensive volunteer/lifestyle experience doing.

    That experience has usually been along side of a retail position, and much of my volunteer organization experience has been done on my lunch break or by email /FB/Twitter/Blog posts while I am working a paid job. Despite that “limitation”, I’ve been able to manage as many as 30 people and accomplished truly life-changing results for others in my community; and almost all of this work has been under the umbrella of being a business owner. (Ie: my business sponsored XYZ event, and I organized Q number of volunteers for the event and raised $R during the event to benefit members of my community. Events ranged from charity auctions to poker runs and silent auctions.)

    I’m really having trouble figuring out how to talk about this experience in a “resume” format that a hiring manager might take seriously. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated!

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      I would highlight volunteer/self-employed work first under the heading “Relevant Experience” and then list your retail/unrelated jobs further down under “Other Experience”. Also try attaching the specific metrics that you mentioned to a time period, e.g. “accomplished X in just 5-10 hrs/week around full-time job” (that wording is awkward but you get the idea).

    3. Kaz*

      I don’t see that being paid to do it matters – it’s different than volunteer work because it was for a business. Sometimes volunteer work can be seen differently because the metrics for what matter are different, but this was still in a professional, business context.

      Plus, don’t discount passion – write the HECK out of that cover letter and your “relevant experience” section!

  59. Gilby*

    OK… Just venting……

    I applied and interviewed for job XYZ. About a week after my interview I got a call from HR telling me the status of interview process and then asked me “If you are not selected for this position would you consider position ABC.” I said yes of course. A specific job was mentioned.

    A week later I got an automated email saying I didn’t get job XYZ. I then got a personal email from HR saying…. “I just wanted to personally reach out to you and let you know you were not selected for job XYZ however I will keep you posted on job ABC”.

    I followed up about a week and a half later with a quick email asking the status and saying I can interview at any time if needed. I didn’t assume I had a job. I got a call back the next day. There is no job. I wasn’t being considered for anything. She apologized for not being clear. She was extremely nice.

    How can one misinterpret ”Would you consider another position” and “I will keep you posted about job ABC “ ……..into we are not considering you for anything at all?

    Why not tell me I didn’t get the job and goodbye? This was NOT the usual “You were not selected and will contact you if a position comes up we will contact you”. These specific conversations regarding a specific job she was going to keep me posted on.

    I am thinking that the hiring manager gave her information that looked like I was going to be considered and then back took it back?

    In any business do you say…. “Susie… If I don’t have Widget A for you will you consider Widget B? Tell me you will keep her posted on the status…… with NO intention of having it available at all?

    That is my issue. If there was no intention on offering me a job (based on my initial interview) or giving me another interview why say all the stuff she said?

    1. EAA*

      Maybe job ABC was a possibility in the future, just not currently open. But yeah bad communication.

      1. Gilby*

        ABC was a job that was already posted. So I figured ( in my obvious stupidity…lol…) that when they interviewed me they thought.. hey… she might be a really good fit for ABC. Thus the reason HR said… ” Would you consider another position…ABC….”.

        But HR told me that those positions had been filled… ( I guess during this whole time, not sure…). She said,,, MAYBE in Aug something MIGHT come up.

        She told me not to stop my job search. Which I thought was nice but odd in a way. Like what does she care? She also could have easily sent me an email back saying all this stuff.. sorry no job at all and sorry about the confusion but she chose to call.

        Don’t know.. but I am not too jazzed with them.

        1. KrisL*

          I know someone who was the 2nd or 3rd choice for about 3 different job openings at a company before he got a job there. The manager was pulling for him; he knew this guy would be good, but the first few times, someone else was just more qualified.

          Could that be the case this time?

  60. the_scientist*

    Halp! I mentioned in last week’s open thread that I had a couple of interviews- one I felt OK but not great about and one that I thought went amazingly. Well, I heard back from the company for the first interview and unsurprisingly they have decided not to move forward with my application. However, my HR contact wanted to follow up because a manager in another department was interested in my resume and wanted me to come in for an interview for an analyst position in a different area.

    However…..it’s a short-term contract (8 months) and based on the job description, doesn’t look like something I’d enjoy or be interested in long-term. There is lots of opportunity to move around/advance at the company, but if I took this position I’d be doing the whole job search thing again in less than a year (albeit maybe as an internal candidate), which exhausts me to think about. I also feel guilty turning down an interview- because at least it’s good practice? And they were nice enough to pass my resume on to somewhere else in the company?

    Should I go to the interview or am I wasting their time and mine?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’d go to the interview. We had someone interview for a contract report building position. I think he was in the same boat, he didn’t like the idea of being on a one year contract, but he came in to hear more about the projects and to see if there were any opportunities once he came on board.
      He ended up not wanting to do the contract because of the reasons you mentioned, but he had all his answers questions and was able to make a solid decision.

    2. robot chick*

      eh, sounds like a win-win to me? You’d have to do more job-hunting anyways, either now or in half a year, except then you’d be in a stronger position, a) as internal candidate in a company you like and b) without the stigma of unemployment.
      Also, with it being a short-term contract, you’re not at risk of having to chose between staying stuck in a job you hate and having it look like job hopping if you leave.

      Unless it’s really entirely abysmal, I’d go for it!

      1. robot chick*

        whoops, I just realized you never said you were currently unemployed. Yeah, ok, then I see the dilemma. Sorry.

    3. Colette*

      Do you currently have a job? If not, how badly do you need one? If you need a job, I’d go ahead with the interview – it’s not what you want to be doing, but it’s better than nothing, and 8 months isn’t that long.

      If you’re able to hold out for something more in line with what you want to do, I’d pass.

      1. the_scientist*

        I do currently have a job until September and can renew my contract once it’s up. I’m applying to other positions in other organizations (see: interview that I was really pleased about) and internally. So I’m not desperate for a job but I’m not crazy about my current one and would like to get out sooner rather than later.

        Based on the job description, I wouldn’t take this job unless they a) sold me on it in the interview or b) offered me a seriously large amount of money. I’m truly stumped, here!

        1. the_scientist*

          If it’s relevant, this would be a two-hour interview (one hour questions; one hour skills test). The location is an hour away, fairly undesirable, and since I don’t get paid PTO/vacation/sick days, would mean taking a half-day off work, unpaid (and making excuses to my boss as to why I need more time off). Ordinarily it would be no issue, but for a job I’m not sold on it does factor in.

          1. Colette*

            In that case, I think I’d pass. That’s a lot of hassle for a job you’re not really interested in and don’t desperately need.

            1. the_scientist*

              Yes, my gut says “pass” but I’m worried that the company will perceive me as “flaky” or disinterested or not committed or something. I’m none of those things, I just don’t think this position will advance my career in the direction I’d like to go.

                1. the_scientist*

                  I just sent the “thanks but no thanks” email. The job description made it seem like mostly data quality/ user assessment testing- just not for me. I have three applications submitted that I’m pretty confident about landing interviews for and am still waiting to hear back from a really solid interview last week, so I’m hopeful :)

  61. Unemployable*

    I have had three interviews in the last few weeks. Two of those companies have gone silent, completely ignoring my follow-up messages, and I expected to hear from the third from now. I have been unemployed for nearly a year and will soon be insane. Maybe I already am insane.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Insanity works well at many organizations. You may be more qualified than you know. :)
      Don’t give up!

      1. Camellia*

        This wins ‘quote of the day’. I’m entirely going to steal this.

        Also, I can’t help but read your name in my head with a fake British accent – AN-du-sun DAHling. :)

        1. AndersonDarling*

          Thanks! I like the accent! It’s actually the Anderson Darling test for statistical normality.
          My fiancé’s name is Anderson and I’m still debating if I want to take it. I was test driving the Anderson part of the name on AAM to see how I felt about it. ..still not sure about it :)

          1. Camellia*

            Anderson Darling test for statistical normality…something tells me you may know of this little gem:

            “The Official Handbook of Engineers and Applied Scientists (Toolies) or Fun, Wealth, and Artsy-Craftsies: What They Are and How to Avoid Them”

          2. EAA*

            I like it but that’s because it’s my maiden name. But it does take a little getting used to the new you.

    2. Dang*

      I completely empathize. Companies go silent on me too, often after multiple interviews. I’m just over a year unemployed. It’s tough to not take it personally.

      1. Unemployable*

        I just don’t know why it’s so difficult to reply to an email asking about status. Ignoring it, after all the time and effort they expected from me for the interview, is just about the rudest thing I can imagine.

        1. Jamie*

          I’ve seen it on the other side from time to time where HR would love to give an answer but the hiring manager and other decision makers haven’t made a decision – or maybe they are now reevaluating whether they should fill it now or next quarter or whatever budget time line.

          Not excusing it and should have all that worked out before scheduling one interview – but I’ve seen it happen.

          Or they interview for a position to replace Jane, suddenly Jane picks up her game then they aren’t sure if they are going to make a change or not.

          Sucks – but there are are often reasons besides thoughtlessness on the other side. Because you can’t explain the chaos in writing and it’s hard to find the wording to keep people dangling.

        2. Vancouver Reader*

          Maybe they’re just slow to respond. I was told after one interview that they’d let me know in 2 weeks and it took 3/4 weeks before they got back. So like Alison always tell us, just move on mentally and you might be pleasantly surprised later on if you do hear back from them.

  62. The one with the creepy coworker...*

    For those who have been following along in the last few open threads… Today’s the day my coworker leaves. Creepy Guy keeps walking past my desk about 50 times a day trying to see across the hallway to see if she’s around. He asked her earlier in the week to see if they could talk because he has an “epic apology.” She said she’d “try to find time.” But all this week he has still been work stalking her (well, more like trying to) so pretty sure it’s going to be something like “I’m so sorry…we haven’t spent much time together in the last 1.5 years since I moved desks.” But she has said she plans to shut him down if he tries to do anything more than say goodbye. Last night his name popped up on my FB notifications because he wrote on a picture I was tagged in from her goodbye party. They aren’t FB friends so now we know he FB stalks her too. Hopefully she’s upped her FB privacy since last night. And because he comes to my desk to look across the hall to her desk, I’ve had to put up with a lot of inane chatter. Yesterday I was talking about buying new cars with someone, he came up, interrupted, then tried to keep talking to me about car warranties after the other person walked away. Gah! (It’s been like this all week.) The going away party was OK. No weirdness. And he’s coming right now….the horror….the horror…

    2. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      This dude is BAD NEWS. My skin is crawls just reading these updates – I can’t imagine how creeped out the cowoker is, but if I was her I’d be worried this will NOT end when she leaves.

    4. Algae*

      Have you read Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker? No one in your office seems to be treating this guy the way de Becker suggests.

      No more “try to find time” statements. Simply “I don’t want to talk to you again.” Don’t sugar coat it.

    5. The one with the creepy coworker...*

      OK, she’s gone. Well, not totally out of the building, but she’s in another part until 5:00, which is later than when we stay (or should stay…) We saw that he caught up with her so all of a sudden everyone had something to talk about near her desk. Fortunately she did actually have to leave so he gave his hand out to shake and told her it was a pleasure working with her then went for the hug, which I’m pretty sure was completely planned in his head… I just spoke with her and his apology was about things being weird between them. Which is pretty much exactly what I thought his “apology” would be. Things are weird because you asked her about your relationship together years ago when she was (and is) a happily married woman with children. And from overhearing him talk to her while she was trying to leave, it sounds like he made her card really personal with “Betty-isms”* Things she’s said all the time and whatnot. Ugh. Puke. We all had a group card last week but he needed to get her his own. But it seems to be over. Let’s hope forever.
      *Not their real name

      1. Jamie*

        This is so weird – I hear about stuff like this all the time but I still can’t wrap my head around it.

        I should probably be insulted that no one has ever fallen in love with me at work – I bring to the table only computer savvy, pathological attention to detail, and snarky humor. Also the occasional baked good. Oh well, I prefer the uncomplicated life so I guess this works for me.

        1. The one with the creepy coworker...*

          Trust me, not worth it! And it wasn’t love more like…childish romantic feelings. But he managed to creep everyone out with them. He’s never had a girlfriend or been married or anything like that and I guess he thinks this is what a relationship is–when a woman is nice to you, you must be “in love.” Something similar happened to me in grad school and I was so surprised when a guy I was just nice to all of a sudden thought there was more to it. Made me rethink this niceness business.

  63. AndersonDarling*

    I have an uplifting story.
    My fiancé has spent the last 2 years transitioning from a life working in restaurants to being a mechanic. While in school he delivered auto parts. Just a month ago, the found a part time gig in a motorcycle repair shop, but it was only 2 days a week.

    The delivery job was for a big corporate company and he was treated like dirt a lot. (He isn’t the corporate working type anyway.) He had a last straw and we decided he should just quit and do what he liked… working in the motorcycle shop. We would make the finances work with him working just 2 days.

    Yesterday he turns in his notice… two hours later the motorcycle shop calls and says they need him full time!

    I’m a big believer that if you can visualize what you want to do, you can make it happen. But it usually doesn’t happen in 2 hours!

    1. Gilby*

      Congrats to you fiance !

      I will read this one over and over as I am job searching…. : )

    2. Ruffingit*

      THAT IS AWESOME! I am a huge believer in visualization and also that once you make a decision that is right and good for you, the universe opens up to help you make it happen. ROCK ON to your fiance and may he enjoy his new, full-time gig!

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I find that the universe does that when we’re going in the wrong direction. (not that it makes us feel any better about it)
        I like to think that there is something great being set up for me, but I need to spend my time being rejected until the “great” thing is ready.
        Stay positive! Good Luck!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Congrats to you guys! You took a chance and won.
      I love hearing stories like this.

  64. MaryMary*

    Managers: what tips do you have regarding communicating unpopular policies or bad news to employees? For example, my office recently formalized its work hours policy, clarifying that lunch breaks are unpaid, associates are expected to work at least 40 hours a week, and asked everyone to submit official arrival and departure times (8:30-5:00, 7:30-4:00, etc) to HR. Naturally, people feel micromanaged and those who are working over 40 hours per week feel insulted. Raises are also low this year, and there will probably not be bonuses. What are good ways to deliver not good messages? Non-managers, what do you particularly like or dislike about when your boss delivers bad news?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      As a non-manager, I like to hear why a policy was put in place that way I don’t feel like some big wig in an office is making heartless decisions. Are you making this change for security reasons, was someone abusing the system, is it a financial decision?
      We had our work from home privileges cut, but we were told that management did testing and saw that working from home was not an efficient option for our workforce. They had the numbers to back it up so the bad news seemed reasonable.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      So, I do this frequently because upper management seems to make boneheaded decisions frequently. I’d say the big things are:

      – Try to strike a balance betting empathizing (I know this is going to be difficult for some of you) but not undermining upper management. But also don’t be too “rah rah!” about it. Just deliver it straight. If you’re too enthusiastic your employees will think you’ve drunk the kool-aid.

      – If you know/understand the reason behind the policy change, communicate that.

      – Don’t blow sunshine up anyone’s ass. Everyone knows that the new personnel policy is designed to save money, not “reward the hardest workers” so don’t try to spin it in a positive light if there isn’t one. If there really IS a bright side to it, then explain that, but let’s be honest – most of these changes aren’t to benefit the employees.

      – Let them know you understand their frustrations, but also be firm that the policy is what it is and everyone (including you) is responsible for implementing it, regardless of how anyone feels about it. Limiting venting/complaining is ok for a little while, but then everyone needs to accept it and move on.

    3. BRR*

      I’m non-management but I believe the same advice either way, explain the rationale behind it. I had bad news delivered yesterday but they talked about why it was happening. I’m super not thrilled about the answer however I understood what things had to be that way.

    4. Joey*

      Explain the rationale, the points that were considered, and that there will be times when you’ve got to respect direction and the decision even when you disagree with it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep.

        “While we may not agree with this, please remember that we are all working under the same rules. Everyone will be held to this policies, no one is being singled out.”

        In one-on-one conversations, I would simply point out that “there is nothing here that is illegal or unethical. While I am not so sure it’s a great idea, I do understand that this is what is expected of me, so I will be doing it. I feel that eventually we will all just get used to it.”

    5. KrisL*

      When bad news is delivered, I want to know why the changes are made. I don’t want people to soft pedal it too much or act like we’re too stupid to realize that this is bad news. I want to know enough details so I can deal with the changes properly.

  65. Bea W*

    Any suggestions for helping to keep global meetings from becoming or staying US-centric? The Americans tend to run the show, but most of the partipants are not in the US, and being US American myself I’m not sure how to balance things out so that our non-US folks don’t feel their needs are being neglected and that these meetings are useful for them since each region functions a bit differently. I have enlisted a collegue from another region to help plan and be a liaison between our 2 functional groups. Any tips on how to make global meetings truly global is appreciated. My group is US based, but the other group is on every continent but Anartica.

    1. OriginalYup*

      A couple of ideas:

      Use a rotating schedule for who leads the meetings: week 1 is Country A, week 2 is Country B, and so forth.

      Separately, ask the non-US attendees about the meetings: what do they find helpful? Not helpful? What would they like to see more of? Less of? Use these suggestions to create a standing agenda for the most important categories. Rethink & remove stuff that doesn’t work.

      Solicit their input during the meetings. “That’s a really important point, Chris. I’d really to hear what that would mean for the global team. Javier and Angelika, what are your thoughts?”

      1. Bea W*

        I wish I could do rotating schedule or rotating presentations, but the call is for my functional group to address and discuss issues, answer questions, and conduct ongoing training for the larger global group which is a totally different job function, but that has my brain turning on how to formulate an agenda to invite broader participation even though the meeting focus is on topics related to my group’s function, and how helping the large global group work with our technology and go on and train others on what they need to do to meet certain goals. I’m not sure how to explain it.

        1. OriginalYup*

          Maybe a first step is asking them outside the meeting about their impressions? They might specific sub-areas of interest or regional problems that would allow Country A to participate really actively in one meeting, while Countries B and C are going to be really active in the following meeting. Also, if a particular country has done especially well in resolving an issue or implementing the procedures, they could a take a lead discussion role on meetings related to that topic. And if there are any local experts on a specific topic (someone from Country D who’s been working the longest on the project and has the best historical perspective, or used a similar process in their prior work) then you can ensure that they are front and center in any meetings about that topic.

          1. Bea W*

            Good points. I’m hoping with a designated rep not in the US, we can incorporate those things. It is really helpful for my group to understand how things work on their end in the real world so we can try to design and build our systems that will help them get what we need in the field.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Not so much specific to international meetings, but in general we all know that the people in the room can communicate much better than the people on the phone. That’s why someone already made the very sensible suggestion of having the originator rotate. However, if you can do video, then there are visual cues about who is actively listening, how the listeners feel about what is being said, and who feels they have something to contribute. Those visual cues keep people from stepping on or slighting others in ways we tend to do with just a voice conference. I’ve done it for offsite (domestic) staff, and they really love how much more involved they feel.

      1. Bea W*

        Everyone is on the phone for this meeting, including my group which is office based (cuz it’s early, and many of us take the call from home and commute afterwards). The other group including the US employee are all remote workers, except for maybe 4 based in the EU office who don’t travel. So yes, there’s no body language cues, but I can also tell you that doesn’t change the participation level for the American remote workers. They are not shy about speaking up ever.

        Everyone speaks English fluently, but I wonder if some of that is related to having to communicate in a different language, which can be difficult on the spot if you don’t speak it everyday. These people are conducting most of their business in their native languages, and English is likely more used in written communication.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that the video would help with a language problem…all of our offsite staff speak English as their native language. My point was that video allows for participants to step on each other less, allows them to visually indicate they have something to say, and allows participants to gauge the reaction of other participants. And webcams can be found for as little as $10, so if all the participants have a reliable internet connection, I highly recommend you give video conferencing a try. Maybe even have local people try it from their desks to test it out first. I’ve just found that it eliminates a lot of the problems satirized in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYu_bGbZiiQ

          1. Bea W*

            I love that video. It’s so true!

            How would you manage a video with 30+ people all logging on separately? Is everyone on the video or just presenters? People are already equipped for this on their laptops but we’ve never used it. We normally have material on the screen that is actively being discussed or live demonstrations of systems. Is it helpful to see the presenter or the person leading the discussion or is being able to see everyone/anyone talking key?

            I’m guessing I’d have to not have my hair in a towel and at least be wearing a decent shirt for this sort of thing. :D

            1. The Cosmic Avenger*

              Ah, 30 people might be too many for what I was envisioning. Our meetings are usually 12-15 people at two different locations, so we would only have one view to look at, and the view of the conference table still allowed you to see who was speaking, how people were reacting, etc. 30+ people and/or more than 5 or 10 locations would be really hard to follow. I’ve done Google Hangouts with that many, and after 6 or 7 it becomes hard to divide your attention, so you usually aren’t looking at anyone other than who is currently speaking.

    3. Jen RO*

      Late to the thread, but what are these meetings about? I have meetings with people from 3 continents fairly often, and it’s just… work, it can never become US-centric or India-centric. The country of the participants had never matters except in scheduling.

  66. saro*

    Any tips for finding federal work through the usajobs website? There are a number of interesting jobs there that I am qualified for (and applied) but don’t know much about the process. I’d appreciate any tips, advice or anecdotes. I applied for rule of law/attorney advisor positions.

    1. De Minimis*

      It’s not all that different than applying through other online systems—it’s good to tailor your resume toward the specific vacancy. If you have supporting documents be sure to download them into your account so you can reuse them–this can be good when you are applying to multiple positions.

      It is handy to have it set to where they e-mail you any time there is a change in application status.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      The really important thing is to make sure your resume very clearly and explicitly addresses the desired and mandatory-related position assessment factors which are in the vacancy announcement. Pretend a complete idiot is reading your resume (they might be) – will it be obvious that you meet those qualifications?

      1. saro*

        Hmm, I think so but am not completely sure. It’s too late for the other positions (they’re closed) but I’ll make sure to do that in the future. Thank you both.

    3. Joey*

      Yes. Fill out everything completely and don’t bother applying to jobs when you don’t have the minimum qualifications. That said feel free to interpret related experience liberally and you’ll have a better shot if you meet the preferred quals. Also, it takes time, months isn’t uncommon, so apply and don’t anxiously wait. Typically USA.gov scores qualified candidates so the closer you match every qual the more likely you’ll get a call. Also keep in mind that you’ll likely be competing with tons of folks unless the job is very specialized. Also apply over and over if the jobs are reposted. Frequently govt agencies don’t keep applications for future reference.

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Honestly? Don’t bother, unless you’re PERFECT for the job. It’s still a pretty competitive market here (a recent internship position was open for 2 days and got hundreds of applications…some from well-overqualified people).

      Also, some of the HR departments that post these will simply run the numbers from the questionnaire and stick to that– that means that unless your score is 100%, you don’t make the list. Don’t forget that veterans and other groups get preferential points so that someone with less qualifications can actually leapfrog over you in the process.

      I’m sure all of the agencies handle it differently, but I’d really say don’t get your hopes up. One path I have seen to work is to become a federal contractor until someone discovers that you’re indispensable.

      1. saro*

        Thanks, yes, I figured it was a long shot but they wanted international experience that I figured it was worth trying. We’ll see. I will re-do my cv though.

  67. Katie the Fed*

    I know we’ve talked about introverts/extroverts here before, but does anyone have any practical tips for surviving among very extroverted coworkers?

    The other managers here are very extroverted and tend to work through problems by talking through them. I need some time/space to process and think, and I can’t do that when they keep talking to me about it. I tried to explain this to a coworker yesterday who said I get a little frazzled sometime – I said it’s just really jarring for me because I literally can’t think in an environment like that – I need a little time to process. She admits she doesn’t understand because she has to talk through things.

    How does one survive/adapt/meet others halfway?

    I want to clarify – I’m talking about introversion, not shyness. I’m not shy at all. It’s more about how I take in and process information.

    1. Colette*

      It takes me time to think things through as well.

      Can you try explicitly saying you need to think about it? I.e. “That’s an interesting idea, let me think about it and get back to you.”

    2. hildi*

      Are the extroverts demanding a response from you or are they just talking to process it and don’t really expect you to jump into the conversation? I am totally like your coworkers: I literally cannot think of new ideas and things unless I’m telling them to someone else. I get my best ideas by talking out loud (and talking to myself doesnt’ do it). It’s weird, but I know it about myself. I’m usually so caught up in my out-loud thinking that I don’t really care if I get a response at that moment. Usually non-commital listening noises from the other person work for me.

      I just threw that idea out (see?!) because I know that there’s a major difference between extroverts and introverts when it comes to talking and decision making. Often, extroverts will talk and talk and THEN make their decision. On the other hand, introverts will rarely talk UNTIL they’ve made a decision. So what you have is two different perspectives colliding: An extrovert is yakking on and on because they are hoping for the interaction to help them keep thinking. But an introvert is sitting there thinking, “I need space to think!” becuase you haven’t had time to think and decide and you’re not going to say a word until you know for sure what you want to say. Perhaps if that’s true for you, you could maybe explain that difference to your coworker?

    3. Jamie*

      Let them talk it out and tell them you’ll get back to them – give them a time and make sure you do get back to them.

      However this won’t work if it’s an environment where stuff is decided on the spot as they’re talking…because then they will be the de facto decision makers each time.

      Classic case of the color of the bike shed problem. Some people need to talk and talk about what color the bike shed should be and the pros and cons of each option – and some of us just want time to think and kick out one well formed opinion and move on to actually painting the shed.

      It’s good you recognize it as a difference in styles and neither being inherently better or worse, because it will keep this from being a judgement thing. This place has helped me with that tremendously – I no longer think of people who need the interaction and constant dialogue as wrong. Sometimes annoying, depending on the day, but not wrong. :)

      1. Katie the Fed*

        It’s this:

        “However this won’t work if it’s an environment where stuff is decided on the spot as they’re talking…because then they will be the de facto decision makers each time. ”

        I couldn’t figure out a way to frame it. My boss and my colleagues are all very crisis-y, and things get decided OMG RIGHT NOW. Boss will tell us to come to his office in 10 minutes, and then we have to hash things out there. I hattte it. I try to ask him for a heads up so I can think ahead of time – maybe I need to be more emphatic about that.

        1. Jamie*

          The problem may be that even asking for a heads up ahead of time may not get you what you want – because a lot of people who value the crisis dialogey bit aren’t usually the same kind of people who want to sit down ahead of time and outline an issue – because it’s more efficient for them to just talk about it when they meet.

          I feel for you and wish I had advice – but I’d be absolutely disadvantaged in that kind of situation.

          Are these big meetings? Odds are that if you’ve got many people involved someone else also needs the time – they will be the ones either rubbing their temples or with eyes spinning in opposite directions in their head. Strength in numbers – the more people need time maybe they will change the pattern.

          This sucks though – I feel for you.

    5. Darth Admin*

      Talk-it-through-outloud extrovert here. I work in a scientific environment with many (many) introverts, and my husband is one as well. My advice is to keep saying what you’re saying, and to emphasize that it’s not about THEM, it’s about what YOU need. It took me awhile to really understand that when someone says “I need time to think” they weren’t angry at me, didn’t think I was stupid, etc. They really just needed time to think.

      As for meeting halfway, I think once you’ve trained people about this you’ll find the halfway naturally. I can’t always give my coworkers (or husband, ha) the time they want, but knowing they need it means I will do my best to give it to them whenever possible.

  68. CTO*

    Thought people would enjoy this job posting I spotted on Craigslist recently for a PT office assistant. Most of the ad is pretty standard, but here’s the best part:

    “One very odd request and required is that you need to send us a resume and cover letter but lie about one or two items on your resume. Fool me. We are very interested in people that are very creative, very quick-witted, thus the request for the lies on the resume. (note: in your training process, the issue of the lie on the resume will be discussed.) …Cheers, thanks and good luck. You’ll be wonderfully surprised.”

    2. Rat Racer*

      This reminds me of summer camp, when we used to play “Two truths and a lie.” It’s a great game for summer camp – strikes an odd note on a JD though…

    3. Diet Coke Addict*

      I don’t think it requires creativity or quick wits to lie on a resume….?

      Also anytime “wonderfully surprised” comes up in a job posting it should automatically pop up with a HUGE RED FLAG.

      1. Courtney*

        Yes. I doubt it’d be “wonderfully surprised” that they offer weekly massages, free soda, snacks, or wellness benefits at no cost to employees.

    4. Jamie*

      Wow – someone is bored and instead of suduko or logic games wants to solve puzzles in the hiring process.

      They will screen out a lot of candidates this way because I know I wouldn’t be the only person passing on an ad like that.

    5. LMW*

      Maybe it’s a private detective agency, and they’ll show you how they uncovered they lie?

    6. straws*

      I’d only be tempted to apply if I weren’t qualified. I’d then make my lies the relevant experience section.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I’d apply if I were very qualified, but my lie would be my contact information. See if they can find me to interview!

    7. Persephone Mulberry*

      That’s CRAZY.

      But at the same time, I’d have fun with it, and include something semi-obvious like “Vice President of the Tri-County Underwater Basketweaving Association”

    8. At the library*

      Wow that is crazy, what kind of company is it? I could see this for an ad agency or a creative firm perhaps; still I would think it better as an in person exercise. I would be worried about a copy of “my resume” with lies on it floating around.

    9. Windchime*

      I recently attended a week-long training class and the trainer had a powerpoint of all the places he had worked in his career, including Cyberdyne Systems (the fictional corporation that created Skynet in the “Terminator” movies). I saw that and was a little confused, until at the end of his introduction ,he said: “Which of these corporations did I really not work at?” I felt super nerdy in that I was the only one in the class who said, “Cyberdyne”. Hah!

  69. Cake*

    I have a coworker who either takes credit for my ideas/comments or just leaves my name out when he talks/emails people (but makes sure to ask me the appropriate questions so he gets answers). He rarely cc’s me on anything, and I’ve heard him telling other people my ideas. Once, he started telling me an idea that I had told him before.

    Any thoughts on how to handle this? He also seems to be one of those people who says “oh I have a lot to do” and kind of does not like criticism (like I will ask him to do something additional for data or will give an explanation and he will always question it – weird eyebrow raises like he doesn’t believe me).

    1. Rat Racer*

      People like this are poisonous to office culture. By taking credit for other people’s work and ideas, he’s basically creating incentives for you to start hoarding information – which is a great recipe for dysfunctional communication in the office. I feel for you – that totally sucks.

      The next time he asks you for information (so that he can pass the response on to whomever and take credit) ask him who is asking the question, and then just respond directly. If he asks why you need to know, you could explain that you find it helpful to communicate with [person] directly, so that nothing gets lost in translation.

      1. Cake*

        I’ve started asking him this – I think he thinks I am overreacting. But it seems to be working now, hopefully. He’s starting to act a little more like a team player, but he still signs all his powerpoints with his own name and forgets everyone else :).

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “Here. Let me give you another one of your ideas.”

      “Well that is my thoughts on problem x, feel free to take my ideas as your own, since you usually do, anyway!”

      “You’d be lost with out my ideas. What will you do when I am on vacation in July?”

      “I don’t know what the answer is to that question. Why don’t you go pick Bob’s brain and take his ideas for a change?”

      Ahem. NOT that I have ever had a coworker like that or anything…

      1. Windchime*

        I usually go for the not-so-subtle, “Huh. Wished I’d have thought of that.” It has to be said in a sarcastic tone to work.

        It really bugs me when people take credit for others’ ideas.

    3. KrisL*

      Is there a good way to just avoid telling this co-worker your ideas?

      Is there a formal way to submit ideas so that it’s clear that they’re your ideas?

      1. Cake*

        Our formal process is such a pain unfortunately, and some of the ideas are smaller than the process (such as, product improvements).

        On avoiding telling my coworker ideas, I’m not sure actually. A lot of times, people actually ask me for things (I have specialized in this one product/instrumentation the past year) and never actually copy me on items, so it’s a bit difficult.

  70. Regular going anon for this*

    Female supervisor favoring female employee?

    I have a male colleague that has been in his position for about 8 years. He was hired at the same time as a female coworker. They are about the same age and they both had about the same level of experience when hired. He and his coworker do the same tasks, but are assigned different clients. He has a good working relationship with his female boss (and his coworker, for that matter), but lately has been noticing that he is not getting the same opportunities as his coworker.

    For instance, a year or so ago, the branch office started a huge, high-visibility project that would affect not only the office, but the entire organization. He didn’t know anyone at his level was involved in the project until a few months into it when he learned his coworker was put in the workgroup with the development team. By that time he felt it was too late to ask get heavily involved, so he had to just offer his input to his coworker and learn from her whatever he could . In another instance, his branch office hired an intern and his coworker was part of the hiring process–he didn’t even know they were at the hiring phase or else he would have asked if he could be involved. There are some more minor, day-to-day things where the supervisor loops the coworker in on issues that either of them could reasonably handle, but the boss seems to go exclusively to the coworker.

    I’ve asked if he asked the boss if he can be involved and he said that he would speak up if he knew about these opportunities, but that he doesn’t find out about them until they are underway and it feels like it’s too late. I’ve also asked if the coworker is just speaking up more and being more proactive than he is, but he doesn’t think so (at least not in any way she’s told him; my friend and his coworker are close and communicate often throughout the day).

    My friend says that the cynical side of him thinks the boss is favoring the female coworker, but he hates thinking that way. Both he and the coworker want to advance within the department, but my friend is convinced that he won’t get the chance until the coworker has been promoted because “she’s the chosen one” and he feels like his boss won’t let him move up until the coworker does.

    Is this normal on a staff? How can he approach his supervisor about this without sounding like a whiner?

    1. BRR*

      Is she performing better than he is? I would make clear to his supervisor that he would like the opportunity to expand his responsibilities and ask what he can do to make that happen. If he and his coworker are close is it at all possible for the coworker to say, hey I think Jim would be great at this, since I did last awesome project could he have the chance to work on this awesome project (I know that’s a real stretch if they’re competing for advancement).

      1. Ruffingit*

        It’s also a stretch because it’s not co-worker’s job to get Jim on projects, it’s HIS job. My concern, from what the OP says, is that Jim is reluctant to speak up once he knows of the projects and that he’s not being proactive in talking to the boss about future projects. He needs to start championing himself and getting his foot in the door so he can be seen as a viable option. Having a co-worker help with that weakens his position in my view.

        1. BRR*

          I agree, it’s his job. Assuming he is advocating for himself but the boss is just automatically going to the coworker then the coworker might possibly be of help. I work on a team right now where being the newest person I am not included in some of the better known projects but my teammates have said BRR can handle that. But I agree that this is only after everything you have said below.

    2. Ruffingit*

      It could be that she’s being favored, but it could also be that he’s not being proactive enough and that his co-worker is even though he thinks that isn’t the case. He is reluctant to speak to the boss once the projects are underway because he feels like it’s too late. How would he know it’s too late? This has happened enough times that he could be proactive and go to the boss and say something like “I’d love to be involved in these projects. Is there any way for me to join it at this stage?” If not, he should be proactive in getting on future projects by saying to the boss “I’d love to be considered for involvement in future projects. How can we make that happen? Are there any concerns you have about my involvement? What skills do I need to be able to be considered for these projects?” And so on.

      The thing is, we can never know what a co-worker is bringing to the table. For all he knows, she may have mad marketing skills or something of that nature that she doesn’t use in her current job, but that are great for these projects. It’s just impossible to know so I think he needs to become proactive in approaching the boss to let her know of his interest in future projects, talk about concerns she may have/what is needed. It’s not about co-worker, it’s about him and he should frame it that way.

      1. Rat Racer*

        Or it could be that she’s being favored, but that it has nothing to do with her gender. All kinds of favoritism happens in the workplace – I like Ruffingit’s strategies for getting on the boss’s radar.

        1. Chris*

          I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps the female employee has a much better rapport with the boss. Quite frequently my co-worker is skipped over because our boss favors my presentation skills- and even when I suggest that co-worker would like additional opportunities, he struggles with getting them, as our boss will typically send me back over his final project to “touch it up”.

    3. Helka*

      I think he should absolutely approach his boss, but he should not start with the notion that the reason for the discrepancy is gender — just as a woman shouldn’t if she’s bringing up a similar discrepancy with her male boss.

      Instead, he should observe that this is happening, and ask how he needs to change his performance in order to be considered. As Alison often advises, go into the situation assuming good faith; presume that either this is an unintentional oversight or there is something he legitimately needs to change/improve in order to make himself a better candidate for these things, rather than immediately assuming he’s being unjustly treated and going in adversarially.

      If the boss’s response is sketchy, or if he takes requested action and still isn’t getting results, then it’s time to start talking gender discrimination. But he should be starting from “What can I do to make myself a better candidate for extra responsibilities like this?” not “How dare you exclude me?”

    4. KrisL*

      I think he should stop telling himself it’s too late to be part of a project and ask if he can help. I also like the suggestions about him asking his boss if he can be involved in this type of project. And yes, don’t assume it’s because the co-worker is female. It might be because they’re close and talk, so projects naturally come up.

  71. Courtney*

    This is probably a loaded question but how do you work for a boss that is a total clusterf*&#?

    For example this week I was told to not allow certain reports to leave the office in the event an attorney needed to review these prepaid expenses reports. The client showed up yesterday as the boss had promised him that he could have the reports. The boss was nowhere to be found- he’d left again.

    He’s promised clients that I could call them and never told me that he had told them about this so they’ve called me and screamed, completely hitting the roof.

    He doesn’t stand behind his word, there had been major issues in which staff has been left to hang out in the wind on without any guidance or back-up from him when needed, etc.

    He’s thrown other staff under the bus to stand up for an employee who doesn’t show up to client appointments. Example: “Bob” hadn’t completed TPS reports for Chocolate Teapots and he blamed “Sharon” for it. Sharon didn’t have anything to do with the account.

    I’m job searching vigorously but the economy…. Enough said there. How do you cope in the meantime?

    1. Ruffingit*

      Yeah, that is hard. Been there. It’s one of those things where it helps first to realize that you are in fact stuck in a total clusterfudge. Just acknowledging that this is the way it is and that you can do nothing about it is helpful because it allows you to stop working at pushing the boulder up the hill.

      Second, start using email for everything that you can so there’s a written record in place. After a meeting with the boss wherein he tells you that he doesn’t want documents leaving the building, email a follow-up with “Just to confirm our conversation today, you do not want the documents to leave the building until attorney reviews.”

      Getting as much as you can in writing is the way to go. Also, and this sounds simple and silly, but plan things for after-work that you enjoy so you have something to look forward to at the end of the day. Make every Friday evening the night you get your favorite junk food or start taking a spin class on Wednesday nights or whatever. Basically, just break up the stress of the job with stuff to look forward to outside of work.

    2. Joey*

      Check out mentally, pretend everything is fine, expect the worst and be pleasantly surprised if its not.

      1. Mints*

        Yup, this is me at work. “No sexist jokes today! Score.” It won’t change. Just focus on escaping

        (Filed under: advice I give myself)

    3. Malissa*

      Drink?
      I almost thought you were my coworker there. I just apply for what ever openings are a good fit and hope to move on.
      I also try to keep my personal integrity intact. I do what I saw and I”m honest when something gets held up. As is, “well you TPS report is sitting on boss’s desk for review now. I can’t help you until he does X.

  72. sophiabrooks*

    I am an “administrative coordinator” for a continuing ed department at a university. Other than a student assistant, I am the only staff member in the department, so I pretty much do everything from marketing to registration to event planning to helping people put courses online etc. I am doing a time study for myself, because I really want to see where my time is going, and also because my (faculty) boss would like to hire someone to do the more administrative tasks leaving me to concentrate of helping develop classes and marketing them, so we would like to see where my time is going.

    I am finding it frustrating to track (although I have only been doing it a week) because many/most of my tasks take less than 15 minutes because they are someone asking me something. Which is fine– that is my job, but I am understanding a little why it is hard for me to get solid work in on my bigger projects. I haven’t been able to go a half an hour on one thing this whole time!

    I guess my question is – is this normal for my type of position? Should I be trying to block myself away (even though I love helping people and my department tries to be really customer friendly to internal and external customers). I don’t mind it, but it is a pain to track.

    1. Rat Racer*

      This reminds me of a thread posted a while back about an employee who did just the opposite: he refused to stop his work flow for any reason – even if it was his supervisor asking – until he completed the task in front of him. You sound like you are on the other end of that spectrum and constantly interrupting your own work so that you can help others.

      It’s great that you are doing this time study! (I should really do that!) I’m a big believer in “what gets measured gets done/fixed”

      I’m wondering if all of the requests that come in are questions that only you can answer, or if some of these people could help themselves if they put in the time/effort, and are going to you because it’s easy. Is there a way for you to direct people quickly to self-help resources? Also, are these questions coming in by phone or e-mail? If the latter, then you can buy yourself some time, and answer the truly pressing ones first and defer the others until later.

      I love helping people too – and it’s a great quality to have (I think!) But if you’re trying to create more space in your day, then you may need to deliver a little “tough love” and start teaching people how to fish on their own.

      1. sophiabrooks*

        While I was typing a reply to this comment, a coworker emailed me to ask if we had a vacuum, and I stopped everything to figure out how I could find a vacuum for him! So I think you are right– that might be the problem.

        I think one of the reasons this is also difficult is that I have a really good reputation for being the most open and most helpful admin, so I really want to keep that reputation. But I also have to, you know, do work!

        1. Rana*

          Yeah, you might want to allot a set amount of time per hour just for email responses. That way you’re not constantly task-switching.

          Plus it sounds like you’re over-responding to the requests. “Do we have a vacuum?” “No, sorry. Maybe Carol knows? I think she was using one the other day.”

    2. Mz Puppie*

      Can you group the one-off requests into general buckets? For example, “questions about teapot making” “requests for more teapot materials” “verification of chocolate recipe for chocolate teapot glaze”, etc?

      Then, all you do is take a piece of paper with your broad categories, and every time you get a 5-minute question in the category, you throw a hash mark under the category. At the end of the day, you can multiply each hash-mark by 15 minutes (pad it a little to accommodate the task-switching time that is involved with stopping what you were doing, answering the question, and then getting back to the previous task). And that’s how you get the cumulative time spent, without making yourself insane with tracking and notating burden.

      Also, this method will be able to show how many times in a typical day you are interrupted. I did exactly this to (successfully) argue to my boss that I needed to be moved out of the front-desk and that we needed to instead hire a receptionist to sit there — once I showed him that I was being interrupted on average 8 times per hour, he completely got it and was like, “nope, I want you able to focus on my bigger projects”.

      1. sophiabrooks*

        Thanks- that might work. Right now I am using a computer program to track, but maybe I can see if there are some drop-downs I can choose from.

  73. De Minimis*

    Got a Notice of Results yesterday, I am deemed qualified for the position I recently applied for and my application has been reviewed. I’m hoping to hear something soon, possibly next week.

    The whole relocation thing is going to be tough to manage, though. We just moved a bunch of stuff out here and may have to move it again. Not sure how they are going to do it, they will supposedly pay relocation but I don’t know how much or how they will do it. Our house will need to go on the market [we were thinking of selling anyway] but the market here seems to be going through a bad stretch again.

    It will totally be worth it, though….higher grade, promotion potential, and a city I’ve always wanted to live in. Just hope to hear something pretty soon. I think my chances are pretty good.

    2. Malissa*

      Good luck! You can always hire a company and rent out the house if it doesn’t sell.

    2. Jen RO*

      I love this. Jen, Hand of Ad’al, level 90 resto druid and technical writer! (I did have raid leaders that will make great managers if they decide to do that. At age 20 they were impressive at managing 24 whiny players… my own attempts at leading were utter failures.)

  75. Claire*

    401k question! Is there any major disadvantage to putting your money in a pre-made plan from the management company instead of individually picking your own investments & percentages? obviously the DIY version gives you further control, but I find finances and numbers super mystifying and the idea of going “yes, my risk tolerance is this, go for it” sounds good to me. I just don’t want to shoot myself in the foot (and obviously couldn’t ask this question of the guy from the financial firm who was explaining my options to me…)

    1. Katie the Fed*

      It really depends on the funds in question and the management company, the fees charged, etc. It’s hard to answer it so broadly – I’d have to know the individual funds.

      That being said, you should really educate yourself about personal finance – Coursera has some free classes and there are great books out there – even something like Personal Finance for dummies. I think this is especially important for women – a lot of the time we tend to let our husbands handle all money things and then when something unexpected or tragic happens, we’re unprepared.

      So get reading – find out what those numbers mean, what your goals are, etc.

      1. Claire*

        Thanks, Katie – I know I need to pick up on this stuff…it’s my first FT job and my first “investment” opportunity so I’m a little swirly-eyed from all the new information. I know it’s important to start now while I’m young, so I want to get set up on the plan right away and then fine tune as I go along

    2. MousyNon*

      Everything Katie said. Fidelity’s fees for their managed plans were insane, and thankfully my 401k had great Vanguard index fund options for me to pick and choose from, so I did some reading and now manage my 401k investments directly. All of the information I got I learned from searching and discussing on the Boglehead forums (John Bogle is the founder of Vanguard, and is a vocal proponent of educating yourself on personal finance, and vigorously opposed to insanely high managed plan fees). It’s not as hard as it looks, once you know what you’re looking at!

      1. Claire*

        Thank you for the recs, I’ll check that site out! My booklet calls these “allocation portfolios” but doesn’t say if I get charged for them…the rep recommended it pretty strongly, but maybe I’ll ask HR to double check.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve been floating in the company investment pool because I didn’t want to tackle making a new plan, so I get ya. Every year our investment plan sends someone over to talk about our options and I’ll be making an appointment with him this year.
      You may want to see if there is a representative that you can work with from the investment plan.

      1. Claire*

        I actually met with a rep (I’m newly eligible and this will be my first plan), and when I told him that I was new & had “minimal” experience with investment, he definitely encouraged me to go with the “allocation portfolio” that matched up with my risk tolerance…but I wasn’t sure if that was bc it was the best option for me or if it’s the best option for his company…the booklet doesn’t say if I get charged anything for it

    4. Sharm*

      This stuff confuses me too. My boyfriend donates a percentage to the company plan only up to the match amount (say, 3%) since you’re getting free money, and then puts the rest in stocks. He follows the stock market more than I do, and makes a lot more money than I do, so he has some actual skin in the game. Once I start making more money again (hopefully someday!), that’s the route I’ll take.

      Not helpful I know, but I never thought about it like that, so I thought I’d mention it.

  76. DGW*

    I’ve posted before re: seeking teaching jobs. I’m part-time at a university, but I’m seeking full-time work. On Weds., I told my current boss that I’d stay PT at her school. On Thursday, a new opening for a 3-year, full-time appointment opened up at a nearby college.

    Is it bad form to apply? They require 3 letters of rec. up front, so I’d have to ask my boss for one (she’s very supportive and my best reference). I feel like I jerk saying one thing, then doing another. I don’t know if I should stand by my word and miss this potential opportunity (3 year term, stability, full-time salary and benefits), or if my best interest trumps a day-long commitment.

    Any insight??

    (On another note…. my current school keeps losing great instructors because they’re seeking PhD candidates and edging out folks like me with terminal MA degrees. So then we are left in limbo! Argh!)

    1. Ruffingit*

      It is not bad form to apply. Do it and do it now. You’ve got to look out for your own future and I am sure your boss will understand that if she’s as supportive as you say. You can always tell her that you know you said you’d stay with the job, but you need to apply for the full-time position. Anyone who is not batshit crazy will get why you would do this. It’s not bad form, it’s self-preservation.

  77. Following up on Following up*

    A week ago I sent an email to an HR rep. for a position that I had applied to. She was nice enough to respond the same day indicating that I was still in contention, that they were very impressed with me, but it might take a bit for her to get back to me with the next steps.

    I really want this job, and it’s kind of nerve wracking playing the waiting game. Given that she did not respond to my original inquiry of a timeline for a decision would it be annoying if I sent another follow up message or should I just wait and see?

    1. Graciosa*

      You have already followed up once; I wouldn’t do it twice. You risk turning yourself from a great candidate to “Ohmigod, that pest who keeps emailing us!”

      I know that waiting is hard – Alison has some great posts on candidate time versus company / hiring manager time – but you need to try to put it out of your mind and move on. Then, if you hear from them, it will be a pleasant event (rather than spending all the time between now and then torturing yourself wondering why you haven’t heard).

      Good luck.

    2. Ruffingit*

      Wait and see. She’s already told you it might be awhile before they get back in touch. Let it go and mentally move on as much as you can right now. I know that’s hard, but it makes no sense to send another email at this time.

  78. C Average*

    Lots of happy work stuff today.

    I’ve been feeling really disconnected from my manager lately and sought some advice here. Many of you suggested setting up a recurring one-on-one to a) address the disconnect and b) make sure it doesn’t happen again.

    We had our first one-on-one yesterday and it went great. It turns out she’s not unhappy with me at all (as I’d feared) but felt that I was doing fine in my own swim lane and didn’t need feedback from her.

    We talked very frankly about the fact that I’ve been supporting the same product line (albeit in three different roles) for my entire time at our company (nearly 8 years) and that it’s time for me to look for an opening to move up. She loves having a subject-matter expert with my tenure on her team, but she can see I’m getting bored and restless and she says she’d feel the same way in my position. She’s assigned me to network with other teams in our company and come up with some other departments that interest me here. She’s agreed that if the right stretch assignment comes along, she’d like to see me take it if I can manage the workload. She also says that given what she’s seen of my work, she thinks I am aiming too low by just looking at writing-centered gigs, and that I really ought to be project-managing because she thinks I’ve done a great job at the various projects I’ve managed for our team. All of this was so great to hear! I have lots of fun new stuff to think about after our conversation.

    Even better: I found out my current role is getting upgraded from a North America role to a global one. I’ve been performing global work for quite some time, but had come to accept I’d never get the pay and recognition that go along with it. The new title will go into effect in the fall, and there should be a healthy raise to go with it.

    tl; dr = yay!

    1. Ruffingit*

      That is really fantastic and I am so happy for you! It’s got to be a huge relief to know your boss is not unhappy with you. That kind of thing can wear on you and create havoc in your mind. Good to know it’s not the case and that you have some exciting new opportunities coming. YAY!! So happy!!

  79. They.Are.Watching*

    So we just learned that we now have several new positions in the main office that consist of nothing but watching the security camera feeds from other locations to make sure employees are “doing their jobs”.

    I’m normally ok with security (like the Facebook patrol) but this strikes me as obsessively creepy. And as the information spreads, morale is suffering. People aren’t willing to do anything but “their” jobs, just in case they are watching…

    Has anyone ever worked successfully in these conditions?
    And we are not talking government, or even highly confidential trade secret type positions. Or should I take this as a sign that the company direction is veering far from where I am personally comfortable, and start looking?

    1. Ruffingit*

      Start looking. That would really creep me out and I would not be able to work effectively under those conditions. It speaks to a level of distrust that isn’t something I want to contend with. I’ve worked in places where security like this was necessary – lock down facilities and the like. But it doesn’t seem this is the environment you are in. I just can’t handle the big brother is watching for no reason type of environment. I’d get out ASAP.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      That is creepy. I’d start looking too. If they want to watch every move, then they will start questioning why you were talking to Sally for 5 min, or why you spent 10 min in the bathroom. Your employer pretty much said that they want you to be a computer and process your programs until they turn you off for the day. It’s not a good sign when your company forgets that people work for them.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This is fairly normal in retail. I don’t know if you are in retail or offices of a retailing firm.

      You get used to it over time. For example you start to find out how they are using the video. Maybe Sally is caught stealing. Maybe Bob sits at his desk and sips coffee while staring at the wall for HOURS. Mabel gets caught raiding other people’s desks for supplies. It also can cover outsiders who come into the work area.

      Usually it ends up being something most people would agree with, NOT “I saw you pick your nose last Tues so you’re fired.”

      Although probably benign, I agree. I would not want to work there either.

    4. Befuddled Squirrel*

      Assuming it’s a standard corporate office job, that is NOT normal and would creep me out. I’d be more worried about what it says about the way the company manages people than any more direct implications.

      Having worked in retail, I can say that often the people watching those videos focus on employees who are already suspected of stealing, unauthorized visitors, etc. Nothing the average employee has to worry about.

      But what kind of company would hire several people just to watch their office workers? One with serious security concerns or one with unusual ideas about managing people, both of which would make me want to leave.

  80. robot chick*

    Where would you rate the weirdness level of having relatives as contacts on LinkedIn? I’m just starting out and could use any networking opportunities I can get, so I’m considering reaching out to my uncle (eh, my mother’s cousin, acutally, but potayto potahto) who lives in the city where I want to work.
    We don’t have the same last name, but he can hardly introduce me to anyone without saying how he knows me, so I guess it wouldn’t be very useful anyways. Or is this more acceptable than I think?

    1. OriginalYup*

      It’s not weird at all to have relatives in your LI contacts, especially if: you work/ed for a family business, they’re in a related field, or they have great contacts.

      There was a post about this a while back, and the consensus was that it’s fine so long as your LI doesn’t turn into a Facebook situation with lots of personal stuff:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/07/when-your-parents-leave-cutesy-comments-on-your-linkedin-profile.html#comment-241071

    2. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      I don’t think it’s weird to help relatives network – seems like it happens all the time. It depends on how they do it, of course – but I wouldn’t see anything wrong with a contact reaching out to me about their niece.

    3. Mints*

      I have relatives on my LinkedIn! I think as long add they’re in the “friends” category (assuming you haven’t worked together) it’s pretty normal

    4. Sharm*

      I didn’t even think twice about having my relatives as connections on LinkedIn. I’m connected to my sibling, cousins, uncles, aunts. I view it as my professional, polished social network, and who knows, they may have contacts I might be interested in some day.

      Hilariously, my dad hasn’t accepted my request yet, so maybe he feels differently!

  81. LV*

    My husband has always had a case of Impostor Syndrome, but now it’s getting worse. He’s convinced that nobody at work thinks he can do the job properly, that everyone secretly hates him, that his boss wants to fire him and he’ll never get another job in the field, etc… It’s a stressful time for everybody at the office right now due to multiple deadlines looming, and Husband has a pretty useless research assistant who causes more problems than he solves. Also, from what I’ve gathered, the boss is frustrated that his own research is being held up by an uncooperative co-author and is taking it out on the team (ex. making everyone work late to meet a deadline while he watches the World Cup in his office instead of contributing).

    Husband had a hard time finding work after finishing grad school and has always been convinced he got this job more due to sheer luck than any ability or skill on his part. But he’s been there for 10 years, and while he’s not the Office Superstar (TM), he has always been well-liked and his work is solid. He’s been published, he’s accepted at conferences, etc.

    I just don’t know what to do to make him see that he’s being irrational and way too hard on himself. He’s smart and a hard worker and it breaks my heart seeing him beat himself up like this for no reason. Anyone have any advice?

    1. Graciosa*

      You need to separate out your role as a spouse from a role as a therapist. There is a limit to what a spouse can do in these situations, and you need to stick to it. It is perfectly natural to want to help – but you’re not in the position to do it effectively, and this will damage your relationship if it goes on too long.

      Imposter syndrome usually goes away over time, so if your husband’s is getting worse (after ten successful years in the job) he has a problem. I’m sure the current stress on the job isn’t helping. I really think that this is a situation tailor made for EAP (if available) or other counseling.

      I know this is breaking your heart, but you can’t fix it. He has developed certain patterns of thinking and your telling him that he’s wrong – or that you love him – or that he’s not seeing things clearly – is not going to change that. The best thing you can do for both of you is convince him to find a professional who can actually help him.

      I am also concerned about what this is doing to your relationship. It isn’t healthy for one partner to stay stuck in the role of the helpless failure who needs to be emotionally propped up by the other partner (who is stuck in the role of supporter whose own needs for support cannot be met). I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is important to think about what this dynamic can do to the two of you as a couple.

      I wish you all the best.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Start encouraging him to look around. It could be new job time.

      Tell him it’s breaking your heart to see him so down. Remind him of all the reasons you married him.

      It sounds to me like his mind is exhausted- see if you can get him interested in a protein drink or something that will help him feel energized.

      Discourage rehashing the same old stuff. Encourage him to find different things to think about and to be considering. Say things like “I get it. You feel maxed out at your job, like you have done your best and not too much is going right.” Find points where you can agree with him, even if you have to stretch a bit.

      My husband had a toxic work place. It took me three years of talking to get him to do something. Finally he did and he made out quite well. New job loved him and he loved the new job.

  82. Iggy Azalea Love*

    Any tips for encouraging a job-hunting friend who has hit a rough patch?

    My friend in the “anger” stage of grieving a job loss (that they HATED btw) and is now convinced they will never get another job because they worked at a religious institution and that “lots of employers won’t like that.” (Note: They don’t want to work for another religious institution.)

    They constantly ask me for advice and when I give it, I’m given a million reasons why the advice “doesn’t apply to them.” They’re discouraged by the number of people that apply for jobs. They can’t understand why it takes more than a month to find a job.

    I talked to them earlier this week and as a result, I went to bed with a headache. :(

    1. Ruffingit*

      Start by asking your friend what they need from you. It may be that they do not need or want your advice, they simply need you to listen to their anxieties and fears about job hunting. “Jane, we’ve talked several times about your job hunt situation and I’ve realized I’ve been giving advice rather than listening. I’m sorry about that. What do you need from me? How can I be most helpful to you?”

      Sometimes just listening, no matter how irrational someone is being, and validating is helpful. Something like this “I hear that you’re worried about not getting another job because of the religious background of your previous one. I know it must be scary to think employers might look negatively on that.”

      Just listen. The art of listening is highly undervalued in our society.

      1. Iggy Azalea Love*

        I really like this statement – “I’ve realized I’ve been giving advice rather than listening. I’m sorry about that. What do you need from me? How can I be most helpful to you?” I’m going to use this technique the next time I talk to my friend.

        I’ve been really trying to stop giving advice to this particular friend, but it’s difficult when they point blank ask questions like, “What would YOU do if you were in my situation?” or “Why do you think of this job situation?” I’m stuck.

        1. Ruffingit*

          You can address the point blank questions like this since you know she will just ignore your advice: “Jane, I’m confused as to why you ask for my thoughts and when they are given, you have many reasons as to why they don’t apply to you. I don’t think it’s helpful for either of us for me to answer your questions so how can I otherwise help you?”

          At this point, it’s about protecting yourself from the emotional drain that Jane has become by letting her know you won’t participate any further, but you’re happy to help in other ways if you can.

          Sometimes just putting a stop to the pattern of “My life sucks, tell me what to do, no that won’t work, nothing will work, my life sucks tell me what to do…” can at least save YOUR sanity. Might even make Jane realize that she needs to get a grip, but if it doesn’t, then you are at least not involved in the drain of trying to help and being continually rebuffed.

          You can also go another way and say “Jane, I am happy to help you, but only if you’re willing to accept that help. If you are going to continually rebuff my strategies and ideas, I can’t continue to talk about this with you so we need to discuss other things.”

          Which way you go is very dependent on the type of person Jane is and what she’s able to accept at this point, but regardless, it’s totally fine for you to remove the topic of her job hunt if it’s draining you and she’s refusing to move forward in any healthy and productive way on it.

          1. Chloe Silverado*

            I completely agree. If this is a close friend, I highly recommend pointing out that the behavior is an issue. You know better than I do how she’ll receive it, but I think it’s worth a try.

            Up until about 6 months ago, I was this negative friend. I was at a low point in my life due to a variety of circumstances (job included). I genuinely thought I was venting a normal amount and that my self deprecating comments were seen as jokes, but my friends were exhausted by it. The first time I had any idea that it was a problem was when a blunt friend of mine finally said “Do you realize every word out of your mouth is a negative statement about your life? It’s making it really hard to hang out with you.” I was mortified and really stopped to reflect on my behavior. I then made a conscious decision to change the behavior and I’m MUCH happier – as are my friends! I also opted to see a therapist to work through some of the negativity, but awareness of the issue was the biggest catalyst for my change in behavior.

            1. Iggy Azalea Love*

              Chloe – I’m happy for you that you are a much happier person now. Sometimes we just need to hear words of truth from people that care about us. :)

              I think I’m going to have tread lightly with this friend, because they are so. on. edge. lately. I may have to put some boundries on the friendship (at least temporarily) and explain why.

              And it’s a pet peeve of mine when people continually ask for advice but never, ever take any – so this is probably why this situation bothers me so much.

              1. Ruffingit*

                I’m with you on people who ask for advice and then never take it. I had a friend who did this kind of thing, which is how I got to the point of understanding that it was OK for me to table the topic and for us to just talk about other things. Ultimately, I ended up letting go of that friend as her issues overwhelmed me to the point of it affecting my life, but that’s another story. Point is, I get where you’re coming from. I’ve now learned that if someone is determined not to let anything work in their life, there’s nothing I can do so I’m not going to waste my time offering advice even if they ask for it. Previous history shows that they refuse to grab on to the life preserver, therefore it’s OK for me to let them flounder in the water. They’ve made the choice to do that and that is on them, not me. My sanity demands that I move on from the topic.

                I know what you mean about sensitive friends too Iggy, been there as well. Boundaries are definitely appropriate and it’s great you’re willing to set them. I’m rooting for you!

          2. Iggy Azalea Love*

            This is really good stuff. The next time my friend and I talk about job hunting stuff and the conversation takes this turn, I’m going to take this approach.

            To be honest, I feel like their negativity is impacting their job search and it’s quite possible that my friend needs a wake-up call.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          “What would YOU do if you were in my situation?” or “Why do you think of this job situation?”

          “It doesn’t matter what I would do. It’s not my life we are talking about.”

          “I think many, many people are in a sucky job situation right now. You are not alone.”

          Sprinkle in things such as:

          “This train of thought helps you HOW?”

          “I don’t see how that type of thinking helps you to get to your next job.”

          1. Iggy Azalea Love*

            Ironically, I asked said a version of your last statement (“I don’t see how that type of thinking helps you to get to your next job.”) during my most recent conversation with my friend. Their response? Silence.

    2. Chris*

      Unfortunately the only thing you can do is be supportive and not burn yourself out helping them. I would try to steer clear from giving them personal advice and turn them to the internet instead (and AAM). That way the “million reasons” is vented at the computer and not you.
      Instead limit your time to hobbies, events, or even a walk and stay clear from anything job related.

      My father was depressed/angry for about a year after being let go (also from a job he hated) and was convinced that he would never get a new job as he was too old.
      It took him that whole year to let go, and be able to move on enough to actually be supportive of himself enough to job search in earnest, or even accept help looking. Think of it as your friends grieving time, and hang in there!

  83. Beyonce Pad Thai*

    I’m leaving my position on August 1st. On July 1st, the person who’ll be replacing me will start. She’ll be working with me during that month so that the transition will hopefully be smooth.

    I’m a process manager at a bank – it’s fairly complex & varied work, when I started it took me 4 or 5 months to get up to speed, at least.
    So, does anyone have any on what I can do to make this month of working together as useful to her as possible?

    I’m already going through my directories to clean everything up, documenting some of the recurring stuff I do, etc, but I’d love more tips.

    1. Graciosa*

      Creating good documentation is a great first step – as is leaving your files in good order – but maybe you can start thinking about the less structured or formal ways to get things done that may help your replacement.

      A few examples:
      1. Normally orders are routed through the electronic system, but if you really need something expedited, BigBoss’ Assistant Marjorie can sometimes help out. You need to go see her in person on the 3d floor, but not while she’s eating her lunch.
      2. The IT help desk isn’t much help, but if your problem isn’t resolved in ten minutes, tell them to create a level 2 ticket and send it to our site. Wakeen’s office is the locked one around the corner and the ticket will go to him – but don’t try asking him for help without a ticket number because he won’t do it.
      3. When the share point site goes down, don’t bother using the contact-help button – you’ll never hear back. Just send an email to Susie Smith. She’s going to want both a screen shot and a separate link to the page.

      Every office has some of these informal ways of actually getting things done that depend upon knowing the right process or contact. Once you’ve taken care of documenting the official ways of doing things, you might start thinking about the unofficial ones.

      Good luck.

      1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

        This is great stuff, thanks! I wouldn’t have thought about making a list of these ‘shortcuts’ but you’re right that stuff like this can come in very handy.

      2. Persephone Mulberry*

        Have a rough training plan in mind…e.g. first week she sits and observes/takes notes, with you explaining in very broad strokes what the job entails (not too much detail/information overload); second week/third weeks you explain in more depth/start having her perform tasks while you walk her through them step by step, fourth week she flies solo with you observing/answering questions.

        Also, documentation for stuff that is recurring but won’t fall into your training window (i.e. that quarterly report that will need to be run 6 weeks from now) is extra important.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Connect her to people that will tend to mentor/assist.

      Make a list of daily/weekly/monthly activities, so at least that much is nailed down. Make sure she knows the mandatory/compliance type stuff.

      Resource materials/ reference materials- get her pointed in how to begin to find her own answers.

      I like to have a sheet of passwords, frequently used phone numbers and other randon bits of information. Everything on the sheet is stuff that I could not get through my day without using. Corral that stuff for her. Make sure any keys are labeled.

      Nail down the basics of job. Huge chunks of time can be lost searching for a certian key, a certian phone number or a website. Frustration goes way down when the basics are clear.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        (Yeah, I know. Sheet with passwords. Sorry, I cannot keep track of twenty passwords that are all variations of this:

        G59i2E00DpF

        The computer is safe from ME, I will never get into it if I have to rely on my memory.)

  84. Ellie*

    Well this has been kind of a whirlwind week for me…

    I have not had full time employment for a long time and then all at once had companies calling giving me job offers.

    one job (journalist for local newspaper) called me within 24 hours of me submitting my resume, asked me to come in for an interview the very next day, I did. they were really desperate to have me start… they even asked if I could start the next day! That was kind of off putting plus salary was only $22,000. not livable wage in my city.

    I emailed them my references plus emailed them to say I don’t have a car… it’s never been a problem and i’ve worked freelance for several papers, but I couldn’t do stories in cities far away. They emailed me to say that would be an issue and they’re going to keep interviewing, though maybe I could work part time for them… so I think I lost that job and maybe I shouldnt have told them I don’t have a car… i don’t know..

    I have had several other organizations express interest in me but all minimum wage jobs. I have an interview at a local college lined up with a great salary (40,000ish) but interview is not for three weeks…

    1. Jaime L.*

      Are the minimum wage jobs retail/food service? If so, those jobs have HIGH turnover. If you absolutely need cash right now, I would say take one of those jobs while continuing to look for a job with a great salary (go to your interview in 3 weeks and continue to job hunt). Once you’re offered a job with your requirements, put in your 2 week notice. Those managers might not be thrilled but it won’t be that surprising. Even if they try to make you feel guilty about it, know that you’re not the first to do something like that. It’s not uncommon in the industry. However, if it’s a minimum wage job in your industry (I’m guessing journalism?), then I would not take those jobs without being willing to commit some time to them.

      If you don’t have to have the cash right now, I would take your time really focusing on the job hunt and forget about the minimum wage jobs. You don’t have to take the first thing that comes your way and certainly don’t do so out of anxiety to just find something. That way leads to grabbing a job that makes you bitter, burns you out or you’re just plain unhappy. Make sure you pick something you are happy with (salary, benefits, type of work, is it challenging enough, etc.).

      Don’t worry about the local newspaper. If it’s not a livable wage, it’s not a livable wage. It doesn’t really matter if the car thing was an issue, and I wouldn’t take it personally or second guess (“Maybe I shouldn’t have told them”). It sounds like there were compatibility issues on both ends–after all, you said it’s not a livable salary.

      Good luck! Keep your chin up and keep plugging away!

  85. EM*

    Hey all!

    I’ve never posted a question before here but I could use some advice… I did some freelance copywriting for a startup travel company last month, and am waiting to get paid now. They are two weeks late with the payment I was supposed to receive (and it’s not for an inconsequential amount– about $2400 USD) and I have already sent a follow-up email, to which there has been no reply.

    I’m wondering how long I should wait to follow up again. My fiancee thinks I should call them every day until it’s resolved, but I’m so used to getting paid late for freelance work that this seems normal. What would you do?

    And also, in a worst-case scenario, what would do you if calling still doesn’t produce the payment? I don’t really know what to do besides make myself insufferable; I have a contract with them outlining payment terms, but no actual idea how to enforce it.

    Help appreciated!!

    1. LMW*

      First, do you have a contract with payment terms? (If not, nows the time to start adding that to your process). I’d send a polite but stern email referencing the contract and mentioning that they are deliquent.
      If you don’t have a contract, I’d call, and if they don’t respect that, I’d send one more email telling them you’ll be pursuing other avenues of collection, since they still haven’t paid you.
      There are a lot of online resources to help freelance writers collect money owed to them (WriterWeekly offers a service, I think), but they do tend to ruin the relationship. I’d make sure you exhaust other avenues first.
      Good luck!

      1. Rana*

        Another lever you can apply is that your work may fall under work for hire laws. If so, then copyright transfer is part of the process… but it depends on you getting paid. Basically, until you get paid, the copyright stays with you – so if they want to use your work, they need to pay you.

      2. EM*

        Thank you!! I did email them to remind them of the terms, and reattached my freelance contract and invoices. I do always use a contract, I’ve just never had to actually enforce it.

    2. Jaime L.*

      I don’t know enough about this type of freelance so this is just a suggestion and please correct me if I don’t know what I’m talking about–

      In the future, moving forward, is it possible to add a late fee to the contracts folks sign? They have one month until X date to pay and then it’s the amount + late fee if paid within two months? I’m thinking like apartment rentals where rent is due the first of the month and after the third or fifth day (depending on contract), there’s a $50 late fee per day each day until it’s paid. Obviously for your work, you wouldn’t do a daily fee. Maybe more like a monthly fee.

      However I’m not sure if this would be offputting to future clients? Thoughts?

      1. Rana*

        It’s absolutely possible, and a lot of my colleagues do it. My own contracts have a late-payment penalty (couched in percentage of overall fee), and I remind clients (or, more typically, their funding institutions) that they don’t get control of the copyright until I get paid (as I noted above).

  86. Anonypants*

    I look at LinkedIn profiles all day, and while I’m not super picky about what people’s pictures look like or how things are formatted, I do have one eyeroll-inducing pet peeve. People, stop putting irrelevant hobbies and side “jobs” in your experience section. Are you a part-time DJ, guitarist, model, or app developer? Unless it’s relevant to the career you have (or the career you want), don’t list it as “experience,” it either goes in your summary or additional info section. If you’re trying to get hired for that other stuff, you may want to make a profile that focuses on it somewhere else, maybe a website that people actually use to scout that kind of talent.

    Also irrelevant to the “experience” section: being a member of a club (especially if it has nothing to do with your career) or a customer of a specific company.

    The only time it doesn’t bug me is if someone’s an instructor at an established program, like a dance studio or music school.

    Before people start yelling at me for being unfair, I should clarify I don’t see it as a dealbreaker, I don’t pass over candidates who do it, but it does make the profile look scattered, disorganized, and lacking in focus, which can raise questions about someone’s priorities. I know a lot of people like to list a little flair, or something extra to grab people’s attention, that’s fine, but I’m just saying it may not belong in the “experience” section.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I’d be interested to hear what you think of my profile, if you’d be willing to give it a look. My username will link to it, and I believe my contact info is visible to everyone if you want to follow up off-board.

    2. Anx*

      You wouldn’t be weirded out by someone with multiple LinkedIn profiles? I thought it would be a red flag to have multiple ones for multiple potential careers.

    3. Befuddled Squirrel*

      I have to respectfully disagree. Hobbies become relevant to people’s career paths all the time, and you never know what someone may be looking for in the future, and what “hobbies” they could be getting paid for now. The CPA who also plays guitar could go on to work in the finance department of a guitar manufacturer. Or maybe they’re getting a lot of paying music gigs and are thinking about teaching guitar and going part-time at the office. At the very least, it makes you seem more interesting.

  87. nyxalinth*

    Has anyone here had experience with flexjobs? I know they’re on the up and up, but I still hesitate to give them money. Apparently they have a lot of work at home positions that are legit, and they charge a fee to offset all the research ad slogging through bullcrap that they have to do. Still, I’m worried I’ll pay my fee and get in there and find that while the positions are legit, there’s nothing I myself am qualified for.

    I don’t have private space where I’m living, so anything that involves phones is out. So I’d be looking for anything to do with writing, editing, and so on. I don’t have any kind of coding experience, no HTML, etc. Transcription is out, due to lack of proper space and carpal tunnel issues slowing me down. I would love something like forum moderation for big online sites (Huffington Post, etc.) Otherwise, I’m pretty open.

    So bottom line: have you tried Flexjobs or know someone who has? What sorts of things are available? How did it work out for you?

    1. money lady*

      I have not but you shouldn’t have to pay money to get a job. Have you tried googling “reviews of flexjob” or something like that? Be careful there, too, because they can put fake “good” reviews but you may find some honest ones.
      Good Luck!

      1. nyxalinth*

        Thanks! I did some further digging around, and while there was one scam complaint (the person didn’t understand what the company does and when he didn’t find a lot off what he was looking for assumed it was a scam), mostly it came down to most of the positions being for telecommuting jobs and you still had to be local to the area as opposed to work at home, most of the positions requiring degrees or advanced training, and so on. so legit or not, it wasn’t a fit for me.

  88. young manager*

    I’m hoping to get some advice as a young manager.

    I started a new job/entire career a few months ago. With the new job came my first role supervising someone. (I’m a young woman in my late 20s.) I oversee the work of one person. She is young, eager and a hard worker. I can ask her to do any task and she will. Not always perfectly, but she’s learning. Most importantly, she is amazing at taking feedback. She wants to grow professionally and has some great goals. We have talked through her short term and long term goals and put together plans to make those a reality. I don’t think I could have asked for a better person to work with.

    Here is the problem. She is loud and bubbly and the jokester of the office. The office is VERY casual. It’s a small firm (about 25 people). There is lots of joking and laughing and some inappropriateness in the office. She is really just participating in the culture.

    The problem is that she isn’t taken seriously. And the biggest problem is that two of the three members of our executive team think she’s a total idiot. (I report directly to them.) She’s not. They just see a 23 year old who is bubbly and excitable and doesn’t execute everything they ask of her perfectly. (Before I got here she reported directly to the executive team. The move was made by a third member of the executive team who felt she was getting no guidance or help and that someone new to the working world needed a little more supervision. I agree.)

    Here’s what I’m looking for advice the most about. One of the executive team members is a jerk. I’ve come to realize his opinion of women is pretty low. And he basically views her as a babbling idiot who is nice to look at but otherwise useless. He has been openly and unnecessarily hostile to her in the office. And any time she asks him a question or doesn’t know the answer to something he asks her, he is rude. Then he comes into my office and complains about what an idiot she is.

    My inclination is to tell her to just stop interacting with him as much as possible. That now that she reports to me, I can be the buffer and I’ll deal with him. (He wouldn’t act that way toward me.) But I realize that isn’t totally realistic. And I don’t know how to explain to her that every time she talks to him, he follows it up by calling her an idiot. (I don’t think she needs to know those kind of details.)

    I can’t make him change his behavior. So I need to come up with a way to remedy this situation, or at least make it a little better, by changing things that I or my report are doing.

    Any suggestions? (Or general tips for a new, young manager?)

    1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      Ugh I feel so bad for her. I’ve been on the receiving end of that attitude towards young people/women.

      I’m not a manager/not sure on what specific actions you can take here, but here’s some stuff I think could help:
      – find her a mentor in the company, preferably someone who doesn’t work with her directly. I have one and I find it super useful to get her advice and perspective on things.
      – any time he comes in your office to trashtalk her, assert in a very polite and calm way that you’re perfectly happy with her work (if that is the truth, of course) and that she’s a good employee
      – give her opportunities to grow like trainings/new projects/etc

      I’m obviously biased but if it was me, I’d make her the office superstar just out of spite towards this jerk (only half kidding).

    2. Camellia*

      “She is loud and bubbly and the jokester of the office.”

      This may be your culture but she does need to know how and when to dial it back, if for no other reason than to be able to function as a complete professional in less casual offices later in her career.

      Please find a way to share this with her and help her to develop in this area.

      1. young manager*

        Thanks! I agree. And she and I have discussed this. I made the point that it will be different in future offices and that she could cross paths with our coworkers in the future and she is going to want them to view her as a professional. I think she took that feedback really well and has been working on toning it down.

    3. CTO*

      I had a difficult (though much less difficult than this) time working with my boss’ boss (the VP). We had developed kind of a mildly antagonistic tone with each other and I knew it wasn’t a good thing. I asked my boss for help–namely, did he see this dynamic happening? And if so, how could I change it?

      It led to a really candid conversation about her (the VP’s) work style and relationships within the company. My boss wasn’t disparaging towards her at all, but honest. I left with a much better understanding of how to work with this VP, more confidence that our weird relationship wasn’t a personal reflection on me, and more trust in my own boss to help me navigate through the politics.

      Is there a way that you can have a similar conversation with your employee? It sounds like you two have a very good relationship and that she’d want to know about what’s going on. You don’t need to trash-talk the executive and you don’t need to make your employee feel like a failure. Just explain to her that this executive has a different tolerance for mistakes, bubbliness, whatever. Tell her that while you’re happy with her performance and you don’t want her to fundamentally change who she is, she might have a better relationship with the executive if she brings her questions to you first when possible, or frames her questions in X way, or uses Y tone of voice when speaking to him.

      I wouldn’t recommend being candid like this in all situations, but it seems like honesty could work here.

  89. Bryce*

    I am most likely going to kick a major hornet’s nest with this one, and get stung too, but I was thinking long and hard about this and wanted to get some thoughts from others:

    As we know, mixing politics and work is Not A Good Idea, and it is a Major No-No to discriminate based on politics. How we should vote is nobody’s business but our own, and how I vote is None of Your Business. That said, there are lots of workplace issues that are crying for political solutions, from our troubled economy to regulatory hurdles.

    Without telling us how to vote, what are your thoughts on workplace issues that may involve political solutions, such as increasing/decreasing regulations, passing/repealing laws, etc. and what would you like to see our elected officials do a better job of addressing?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I don’t have too much of an opinion on our elected officials, but I did want to say that I understand how it is tough to talk about these things when you need to. I work at a non-profit in the healthcare sector, so the Affordable Care Act needs to be discussed. But it is such a hot topic that I cringe when I even hear it mentioned!

      1. Anx*

        Yes!

        I agree that politics don’t belong in the workplace, but it’s amazing how we can’t talk policy anymore without talking politics, if you know what I mean.

        I volunteer in a hospital of all places, and I just changed my shift because I couldn’t stand all of the ACA bashing (from retirees). I don’t even much care for it, but the invective on it really hurt, because when they’d go on about it I took it personally because despite having to pay a penalty at the end of the year since I’vedbeen laid off and will be too poor for subsidy, I decided to sign up. I couldn’t take all the ‘lazy’ ‘freeloader’ rhetoric while I was working without pay to help other people get care I didn’t have access to before March.

        (I switched shifts for a number of reasons, but that was a large component of why work was so draining)

  90. Anon*

    Vibrance is already a word! Why do we say the city needs vibrancy? Why do we need vibrancy??

      1. Miss Betty*

        And when did “gifted” transition from an adjective to a verb? “Look – my friend gifted me this beautiful plant!” No she didn’t. She gave it to you. You aren’t going to gift that book to your niece, you’re going to give it to her.

      2. Anx*

        Healthy I thought referred to the state of a subject, and healthful referred to how it contributes to the health of a subject

  91. rkflower*

    My husband and I hired a nanny 3 months ago to replace a nanny who had worked for us for 2 years. When we hired her, we told her the hourly rate we’d be paying plus time and a half for all hours worked over 40 hours. We also said we expected the hours to be between 50-55 hours per week and to simplify the pay calculation, we’d just use the straight line rate based on a 55 hour week no matter how many hours she worked under 55 hours (but if in some rare instance she worked over 55 hours, we’d calculate the time and a half correctly).

    For example if her base rate was $10/hr, we’d pay her a straight line rate of $11.36/hr. (no matter how many hours she worked under 55 hours) because:
    40*$10=$400
    15*$15=$225
    $625/55 hours =$11.36

    So last week she worked only 40 hours and we still paid her the higher straight line rate rather than her base hourly rate.

    In addition to watching our 2 kids, we also mentioned during the interview that my stepson is here about 25% of the year, and we wouldn’t increase pay while he was here. So the problem is, he came into town this week. After the first day he was here, she said the kids were too wild and asked for a raise because she was taking on an additional kid and equated it to taking on additional responsibility at a regular job.

    We were very clear with everyone we interviewed that the rate was going to be the same whether he was here or not. And conversely, we won’t decrease her rate when school starts up and our older child is in school and she has only 1 kid at home to care for. Also, I feel like we’re being generous by paying her the higher straight line hourly rate instead of using her base hourly rate.

    Am I justified in thinking it is strange and immature for her to ask for a raise after the first day of watching my stepson? I say immature, because, while we talked to our kids about behaving after she told us they were too wild, I do feel like establishing discipline is part of her job (and my husband and I have coached her on using time-out, taking away privileges, etc.) and giving her a raise doesn’t solve the problem she is having with disciplining them. I guess from her stance, it just makes the lack of discipline more tolerable, which is not necessarily something we want to encourage.

    1. Ruffingit*

      It’s wildly out of line for her to request a raise because you told her what the job was and what the pay would be upfront. You made it clear the job included your step-son when he is at your home and you also made it clear the rate would not increase when your SS was there. So she has no basis whatsoever for asking for a raise. I’d let her know that you made it clear when you hired her that this was the job and ask her if she’d like to continue in it. I’d like to know if she just wasn’t listening when you told her about your step-son, etc. Whatever the case, this is the agreed upon job and rate. If she doesn’t like it, she can go elsewhere.

    2. Del*

      Yeah, I agree with Ruffingit. Unless there was a specific major behavioral issue with your stepson (in which case I would expect her to emphasize that, not just that taking on another child is a new responsibility) that caused her strikingly more work than just “you’ll have another child to watch” would naturally lead her to expect, this is really baseless and pretty much shows she wasn’t really paying attention when you set expectations.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I agree too. If the stepson really is a “handful” to watch and that was not made clear, then I can understand the request for a raise.
        Were the payment terms written down, or just verbally discussed? If it was just a discussion, then I could see how the nanny may be confused by all the payment details.
        But it also depends on how much you like the nanny. Are you ready to look for someone else?

        1. rkflower*

          We verbally discussed the rates. I’m kind of kicking myself now for not writing it down, but we’ve never had this situation before with prior nannies. We hired her because a friend referred her to us, though we had a lot of interest from other people because of an advertisement we put up on a website.

          She doesn’t seem as responsible as our prior nannies, and seems to get easily overwhelmed. For example, I asked how her trip out went one day and her response was that it was a “disaster” because my younger son peed in his pants. But knowing that he sometimes has accidents, she should have put a pull-up on him (which I’ve told her is okay to do) before they left or brought a change of clothes (she did neither). I feel like some advanced planning on her part could have helped that situation. The positive side is that my kids really like her because she plays with them. She’s only been with us for 3 months, but if she decided to leave, I wouldn’t be upset by it, so we’re not considering increasing her pay at this time.

          1. Ruffingit*

            It’s weird to me that she wouldn’t make a plan for a day out with a child who sometimes has accidents. I’d be concerned at her inability to think ahead. Don’t have kids myself, but have done tons of babysitting and change of clothes + pull-up is just basic when going out with a kid who may have accidents.

      2. rkflower*

        They were wild because it was my stepson’s first day here and the other kids were happy to see him. My husband corrected the behavior as soon as he got home and there haven’t been any issues since. I just think it’s weird that she jumped the gun on day 1.

    3. Katie the Fed*

      Hm well, I think it’s a little inappropriate to ask for a raise, but your stepson really might have been out of control and she wondered exactly what she got herself into.

      I think it would be reasonable to pay her a bit more ($1-2/hour?) when he’s there. Especially if she’s very good, because frankly I think you’re getting her for a great rate and if you like her a lot, I’d pay a bit more to keep her.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        But then wouldn’t it also be reasonable to pay her less when their older child is at school? Like:

        Per hour with 1 kid: $9
        Per hour with 2 kids: $10
        Per hour with 3 kids: $11

        … and doing away with the straight-line rate and instead calculate it hour-by-hour. Ugh. Sounds like a hassle all around.

        1. Mallory*

          I bet if OP gave her the choice between this scenario and the one currently in effect, she’d stick with her current circumstance. It seems like the obvious better deal to me.

    4. C Average*

      Having spent some time around kids (as a much older sibling, a volunteer, an in-demand babysitter, and a stepparent), I’m all too aware that adding one kid to a group does not always represent a linear increase on an effort graph. If the kid is a challenge to deal with, he’s likely making it a challenge to deal with the other kids, too. (If he’s aggressive, the other kids might be afraid of him; if he’s rambunctious and rebellious, he may be influencing the other kids to be that way, too.) And the whole sibling/half-sibling thing can be fraught with subtexts that make good kids bad and bad kids worse.

      My guess is that the nanny realizes she’s bitten off more than she can chew and she’d like to leave. She’s asking for a raise because she’s looking for a reason not to leave. You should have a conversation with her about whether this is just about the money, or whether it’s about her ability to manage these three kids, period.

      (And if you haven’t already, start scouting for a replacement. I’ll bet you’re going to need it.)

    5. Blue Anne*

      Preface to this – I worked as a babysitter and part-time nanny through high school and college, was a summer camp counselor, ran a Girl Guide unit, thought I was going to go into education. I’m happy to say I got pretty great feedback from every family I worked with – except one, who I’ll mention at the end.

      Yes, I think your hourly setup is generous. (Can’t comment on the rate, no idea, but in terms of the straight-line, overtime etc., that’s pretty great.) It’s reasonable for her to ask for extra compensation if she’s going to be doing a lot more work and it hasn’t been discussed previously, but that doesn’t sound like it’s happening. For example, one family I worked with regularly (10-15 hours a week for about 2 years) would every so often arrange for my charge to have multiple friends over while I was going to be the only adult in the house, and this kid was already pretty wild. It was a pain and I would have appreciated warning, but I also didn’t expect to be paid any more. If it was a less regular babysitting arrangement, or if it became a routine thing (“Timmy and Akhmed are going to stay after school with Wakeen Jr. every Wednesday and Friday!”) I would have talked with them about a bump.

      But if we had discussed when I took the job that it was going to be a bit of a nanny-share, or that there would be a step-sibling turning up regularly, I would definitely have figured that in to deciding whether I was happy with the hourly rate that was being paid. Accepting it and then asking for more money is odd.

      However:
      1. It’s not entirely up to the nanny to establish discipline. Obviously during the day she’s a big part of it! But the parents are still the parents, and if she’s having trouble controlling the kids and feeling like she’s not being backed up by you, that’s a really hard situation. I mentioned above that I had a kid I was looking after who was “wild” – I did everything I could. This was a really good kid with parents who had no idea about discipline, and even asked me what I would recommend (which I told them), but never followed through. We had definitely talked about things like giving time-outs, but there was still big problems.
      I am not saying that’s the situation with your family! But it’s worth remembering that it’s not only her job when you’re having these conversations, if only so that she doesn’t get the feeling you’re not seeing what she’s dealing with.
      It sounds like you’ve already tried to address this, but it’s worth sitting down with her and having a conversation that starts with “You’ve mentioned that the kids are sometimes wild, although we’ve talked about the kind of discipline we expect from them. Are there particular concerns you’re having? Are they doing something you’re not happy with? Are you having trouble giving time-outs, etc?”
      Maybe it will turn out that her definition of ‘wild’ is much tamer than yours, and the kids are chafing under the difference and acting out. That happens more often than you’d think. (As a nanny, making the switch from a family who maintains a pristine house to a family that’s fine with kids bouncing on couches and finger-painting is killer. It takes a bit of adjustment.)

      2. I did have one situation where despite a full description of the help the family needed on the original ad, and a really nice interview, what I was doing turned out to be very different from what I expected because the kids were much more independent than the adult they lived with realized. When I talked to the adult about it, she was very nice but didn’t agree with me that what I was doing was different than what I was told I’d be doing. I ended up leaving after only a few weeks and felt absolutely terrible about it. From what you’ve said, I think this is very unlikely to be the situation, but it’s possible. Personally I wouldn’t have stayed for more money, but I can understand why someone would.
      So it might be worth having a conversation that’s similar to what you would have with an employee at your workplace: “You’ve mentioned some concerns about parts of the job which I thought I made from the beginning. Are you finding the work to be different from what we had discussed?”

      Personally, I’d bet five quid that she’s having trouble settling in, not because she wasn’t warned about having an extra kid 25% of the time, but because it’s easier to say “Oh yes, no problem” to a hypothetical extra kid than to one who you’ve had a chance to meet and interact with (did she have a chance to meet the step-sibling before being hired?) and if you’re not very confident it can be really hard to start giving discipline in the same way the parents give it. But as you said, that’s her job, and if that’s the case she needs to get a handle on it, ideally with your help.

      Sorry this got so long, and I hope I didn’t step on any toes. I hope it works out. From your arrangements you sound like a really considerate employer, which makes that kind of work SO much nicer!

      1. rkflower*

        Thanks for your insight! I think asking whether the job is different than she expected is a good question to ask. Before my stepson came, she said she loved her job. The problem she had was the first day he came for 6 weeks of the summer and my kids were just really excited to see him. After the first day she complained and asked for a raise, without giving us the chance to first correct the behavior. As soon as she left that day my husband sat down with my stepson and older child and had a talk with both of them about behavior and told them the consequences of not following the rules. Since then, there haven’t been any issues and the nanny said the kids have been on much better behavior.

        I see what you’re saying about discipline not being entirely her responsibility. We definitely don’t take that approach. In fact, when I’m there in the morning, sometimes my kids will complain about one of her rules and I tell them tough luck, that’s the rule when she’s there and they need to follow it. We’ve made sticker charts where they can get prizes after filling it up to assist her with positive reinforcement. We’ve told her it’s okay to put them in time out, take away toys, etc. And if they get a bad report for the day, we work to correct it.

        I think you’re right about the problem is with her settling in. I think she doesn’t adjust well to change because she gets overwhelmed easily. I just think it’s weird that after the first day of my stepson being here she asked for a raise. That would be like my boss giving me a new project and my asking for a raise for the duration of the project.

        1. Blue Anne*

          “In fact, when I’m there in the morning, sometimes my kids will complain about one of her rules and I tell them tough luck, that’s the rule when she’s there and they need to follow it. ”

          This is the family every nanny wants to work for, seriously. Kudos.

          Yeah, it sounds like maybe the kids were really excited and energetic when he arrived the first day, and she over-reacted to them being harder to handle during that time. That sounds like something I would have done in my first few years of nannying, and kicked myself all over the block for the next week when things had calmed down. If possible, it does really pay off to give any childcare worker the chance to meet all kids (and all of them together) before taking the job, but that’s an ideal-scenario, not always realistic kind of thing.

          It sounds like you addressed the situation the right way with the kiddos and she’s happier. Unless anything comes up again, I’d just chalk it up to a new employee having a learning experience. It might be worth just checking in, near the time your stepson is going to leave, about how she’s felt it’s been going since he’s been there. (Urgh, tenses getting messed up, but I’m sure you know what I mean!) I wouldn’t mention her having asked for a raise or relate it to the first day’s conversation at all, but just check in so you have an idea of how she’s doing.

    6. CTO*

      I’ve worked in a nanny placement agency, and your nanny’s request is not typical nor professional. Your pay structure is quite fair (though obviously I have no idea if the hourly rate, etc. is competitive–but let’s assume it is). You gave her the terms upfront; nothing has changed.

      I do understand that she may find your stepson’s behavior (or behavior in combination with the other kids) more difficult than anticipated, but that’s not a reason to ask for a raise after day 1. If anything, she could let you know what issues were challenging and ask for your insight about what is most effective for these particular children. It sounds like you’re already having those conversations together and that you’ve done your part to make her days go more smoothly.

      If it just came up once after an overwhelming day, I’d forget about it. But if she keeps bringing it up, or if you keep having other performance issues, I’d address those instead.

      And as you’ve learned… put things in writing next time! Good luck!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Okay, I will be the odd one answering.

      I think the way you calculated the pay rate is … strange. But, your call. However,when employers do these formulas for pay they tend to invite people to dicker over it. As in “I see you have this complex formula for calculating my pay and probably you really don’t know what you are paying me so I am going to ask for more money.” OR they can direct it back on themselves “I have no clue where you got these numbers from and I have no clue what you are paying me for. You give me more work, I feel I should ask for more money because I don’t understand your type of math.”

      Not saying this to be mean— but in some cases pay formulas like this one tend to bring on more problems than they solve.

      I read your post twice to follow your numbers- I know many people who would never understand it. (Sad to say.) Again, your call on this, of course. No disrespect intended.

  92. Should you consider interns as staff if they are not paid?*

    Do you think it is appropriate to refer to interns as staff? A colleague of mine who works for a different organizations calls her interns her “staff” when they are not paid staff. She tries to make it seem like they are paid staff but when you press her she will admit they are interns. Many of us in the group thinks she is says it that way to seem like it is more than it is and that she is doing such impressive work that her boss is allowing her to hire staff when she only has 3 years of experience in our field. When ever she says I have two staff and I am bringing on a third it always turns out that these “staff” are interns from the local college in the area. I think it is misleading to call them staff. Is there anything wrong with saying ” I have three interns” ? Do you think less of a person if they say I have three interns as opposed to three staff?

    1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      I think the term staff can encompass both paid employees and unpaid interns, but yeah, she does seem to be using it in a misleading way.

    2. Ruffingit*

      I think it’s stupid and she’s trying to make herself look more important by saying she has staff. Interns are there to learn a job, they are not staff in any way.

    3. Anon*

      It sounds like she’s trying to treat the interns as regular employees. That’s probably good for the interns, but the way she describes it isn’t coming across well.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I like that she is trying to include the interns instead of “here are my employees… those are just interns.”
        We talk about interns as though they were staff, and they are included in staff meetings and trainings. I don’t think of inters as being used as a status symbol. If I am managing them, then they are part of my team.

        1. Anon*

          It’s like that where I work, too. The interns do great work and seem to learn a lot. At my internship, I mostly folded booklets and mailed things. I didn’t learn much and I wasn’t as useful as I could have been.

          It sounds like some other commenters are reading the interns/staff as a status symbol, though. Do you think there’s something to that in other businesses?

    4. Tzippy*

      I think it’s probably to make herself look better, though it might help the interns feel part of the team. I’d possibly call interns staff for convenience.

  93. Blue Anne*

    I gave my notice to my current workplace for my big new job! And we’ve set my leaving date for 22 August.

    As I type, there’s a recruiter in the next room chatting with my manager about replacing me. Weird feeling.

  94. Kerr*

    Scammers will try anything, won’t they? I just got a “response” to an application, saying that they wanted to move forward, but:
    “Everything looks good, however I will need you to send me your resume in executive-classic format (company requirement for new hire résumés). Please re-send me your resume in the correct format, along with the first date you can begin so we can move forward.
    If you are unfamiliar with an executive-classic format, I’d recommend finding a template, or a quick resume builder online (I know OneBuckResume.com or ResumeEdge should support the format).”
    And of course, for the low, low price of $1 (plus recurring fees that are charged to your credit card monthly!) you can buy one of these “resume formats” from the sites named.
    Posting this mostly as a PSA, since this is a new one to me. Anything targeting job seekers as scam victims burns me up. Beyond the smell of fish, this one looked surprisingly legit – decent spelling, real company name, fake e-mail domain that looks like the real company domain, etc.

    1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      Ugh, it breaks my heart to think about people falling for that because they need a job badly.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        crap, I didn’t know the comments would think that was a real link and make it a hyperlink!

    3. Audiophile*

      I’ve applied to jobs that looked legit, real company name and everything. Now I do what feels like double the work and find the company site and see if it’s cross posted there. That way I know for sure that it’s legit.

      Sorry you got snared.

  95. Camellia*

    Friday Challenge:

    This question and answer is from a town hall meeting about a re-org. Can ANYONE decipher this answer?

    Question: If someone is at mid-level now and that person is re-orged into a position that would be considered an entry level, would their pay grade be lowered accordingly?

    Answer: As part of the re-organization, current skill levels for the specific position as required will continue to be the primary requirement for the position and pay grade.

    1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      This reads like something that went through Google Translate a few too many times.

      But my guess is that they’re purposely being vague because yes, people will be taking pay cuts with their job downgrades.

      1. OriginalYup*

        Agreed. They’re hedging because they don’t want to come right out and say it, and they need to leave room for a few outliers who might keep their current pay, but overall people being downgraded should prepare for pay cuts.

    2. Darth Admin*

      The answer means “Yes.” If your skills and new job are lower-level than you are now, your pay can be reduced.

  96. manomanon*

    Last night I found out I’m being put on a performance plan and probation for the next month due to some of my work not being up to the standard that our deputy director is looking for. I work in development for a non-profit and over the last 3-4 months my job has shifted from handling logistics for events, and donor management and research/editing to being responsible for all of those things and writing our grant proposals and reports from the ground up. Grant writing is not a skill I’m interested in and while it’s obviously important to development my interests within the field lie elsewhere. It seems that the writing is what caused this to be happening since everyone is in agreement that everything else I do is excellent. Earlier this week my boss and I were discussing what was standing between me and a promotion and he said it was the writing, that everything else was great.
    With that background- I have 2 questions.
    1) How do I bring this up with my boss without saying WTF- you never told me this was the huge problem it apparently is?
    2) Any tips for improving grant writing for a beginner? I’ve taken classes at the Foundation Center and read some books but other than that I’m at a loss.

    1. Ruffingit*

      Well that just sucks, sorry :( The only tip I can offer is perhaps finding a senior grant writer who can mentor you.

    2. BRR*

      First I’m sorry and that sucks.. Since it’s new for you is there any possibility of them paying for some professional development? Maybe something more personalized than a class since once again it’s new to you and you have no experience doing it. If you have a communications person/department (they’re what I think of as possible writers), is it possible to work either with them, get them to edit, or get some tutoring?

      Could you approach it as a workload issue? That your day was already full from a,b,c and you don’t have time to do that plus secure however much your grant funding your goal is.

      This is going to bum you out so I apologize but do people survive PIPs at your organization? I only bring that up because at some organizations they’re more of a formality or there is little chance for an employee to rebound. If that is the case it would in your own best interest to start job searching now since the process can take a very long time and it is easier to get a job if you have a job.

    3. Anonie*

      I’m a grant writer. Is the director giving you specific examples about your writing or are they blaming it on your writing if your organization is not getting grants? Being a great grant writer doesn’t mean you will get grants. Several things come into play in getting a grant. While it is easy to blame the grant writer that isn’t always the problem.

      Sometimes the “ask” itself could be the problem. Are you asking for the right program to fit the funders needs? Do you have good data? Are you asking for the write amount i.es, are you asking for 50k when the majority of the grants the organization gives out are in the 5-10k range?

      I think you need to find out the what is specific issues they director has with your writing. Also be honest with yourself. You said grant writing is not a skill you are interested in so it that affecting the work you are presenting? You have to remember that your grant is going up against other grants sometimes 100 or more other grants. Sometimes funders have to look for reasons to say “No” to a grant because they have so many to choose from and can only fund so many grants. If you want to be a Director of Development in the future you need to know how to construct a good grant.

    4. manomanon*

      You all have raised good points- thank you!
      Our comms team used to be involved in the editing/proofreading part of this but they’ve become far busier and don’t have time to anymore which is unfortunate.
      I think the workload point is a good one and I will bring that up, thankfully I don’t have goals to meet and what I am writing isn’t what ends up going to funders, it’s supposed to serve as the first draft of these documents once we have the information from our program staff.
      I’m honestly not sure if people survive them which is part of why I’m worried- I started job hunting last night because of that very concern.
      These asks definitely match up, most of what we’ve been working on for the past 6 months is renewals where the grant officer gave us a number to use for the program or general operating, new money starts next month and that’s a whole new ball game.
      They aren’t giving much specific feedback but they also aren’t blaming it on not getting grants either which is a little reassuring.
      Anonie, I think that the point about what I’m presenting is an important one, it certainly feels like it is in the moment when I’ve written and re-written and proofed something before sending it to my boss and his comments are usually less about copy-editing and more about content I didn’t even know I needed so it’s hard to tell. I do know that my copy-editing is substantially better when I’m not intimately involved with a document so it’s definitely possible I’m subconsciously skipping right over easy errors because I want to get back to the parts of my job I enjoy;.

      1. Anonie*

        If the issue is about content that you didn’t know you needed to put in the grant then that may take time to learn. It could also be that what you think is important to put is not what your director thinks is in important and vice versa. Sometimes it is all about writing style. Everyone doesn’t write the same way and it is not cookie cutter. There are some good grant writing books out there and you could also check out the website Charity Channel. They have articles written by development professionals and many are written by grant writers. They offer tips about grant writing and crafting good proposals. It could be helpful to read some of the articles.

    5. The Other Dawn*

      I can’t tell how long you’ve been there, but did they hire you knowing you don’t have this experience? If so, I would argue for them providing some training or finding a mentor for you. And it’s tough to do something well when you don’t also enjoy it. Not that it can’t be done, but it’s definitely harder. Good luck!

  97. Cruciatus*

    I need advice for a friend. I’ve been searching articles on this site but I seem to have poor search skills today for this scenario. She accepted a job in our city a couple of weeks ago that is set to start July 1st. In that time another job she is more excited about in another state hired her. She’s been trying to figure out the living situation in the other state before she officially resigns from the first position. She wasn’t trying to be flaky and didn’t think the second job would actually come through. I know she needs to talk to the first job as quickly as possible but what is the best way without burning all her bridges (for she could return to this area again some day). It’s possible the bridge may still be burned but can she minimize the damage?

    1. Chloe Silverado*

      I’m not really sure if there’s a good way to do this, but what about her saying something like “Due to some personal matters I need to relocate to X state at this time. Unfortunately I won’t be able to take the position with your company after all. I was looking forward to working with you and I’m so sorry for any inconvenience this may cause. I wish you the best of luck filling the role.”

      I realize that’s technically a lie – from your story it seems like she’s only moving for the other job, but they really have no way of knowing that. I think she would need to be a bit more forthcoming if she has a personal connection within the company or if the company happens to have a very flexible telecommuting policy. I would just make it about needing to move to the new location rather than getting a better offer. To me that sounds less flaky.

    2. Befuddled Squirrel*

      It’s not uncommon for job offers to fall through before the start date. I would say something like, “Some things have changed for me personally and I am no longer able to accept this offer,” and then apologize very sincerely and wish them the best in finding someone else for the role. If she knows anyone who she thinks might be a good fit, she could also mention that and offer to refer them.

  98. MandyBabs*

    This is a “has anyone else experienced this?” or “is this a new trend?” question:

    I have applied to a performing arts center that exists within a university: “Chocolate Teapots Performing Arts – part of University of Teapots” . I recently received an email notifying me I had made it to the first round of the interview process (yay!) – and that next step was to complete a questionnaire and submit back electronically.

    What puzzled me about it was the questions seemed like they would have been natural for a phone interview versus typing out something what I considered largely impersonal. I assume this is due to the large volume of candidates – but it still struck me as odd. I guess I’m disappointed a bit too, because I usually do strongly at phone interviews.

    Anyway, has anyone else experienced this? I wrote my responses in the same cadence as my cover letter – succinct and highlighting achievements. Was also slightly annoyed because I thought I used my strongest points in my cover letter and wanted to reuse them without it looking like a copied/pasted text!

  99. Amaryllis*

    My boss has tossed his name into the ring for an executive/admin position in our organization. I know you shouldn’t use your current company’s letterhead when writing a cover letter – does that apply here too? The position is something like univ president / provost (but not that high up) – I imagine most of the candidates will be internal, if that makes any difference.

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      I think it’s okay to use company letterhead for internal applications, ESPECIALLY in academia.

  100. Queen Anon*

    I have a question for the librarians on the list but anyone’s welcome to chime in. There’s a local library that’s advertised several professional positions but the only way to apply is to walk in during the day (weekdays only) and fill out an application. No way to e-mail a resume – they don’t even ask for a resume or cover letter. This isn’t a small-town library; it’s a small city library with several branches. These aren’t non-professional positions like shelver or page or even parapro positions. They’re professional positions, like cataloger, and require an MLS/MLIS. I just find this bizarre. Is it? Is this some sort of red flag that they want professionals to walk in during a weekday and fill in a paper resume? Other positions I’ve applied for (including a very small library in a very small town) require an application packet including a resume, cover letter, and references. What’s even more strange is that they advertise these positions on national library job boards – but how is anyone outside of town going to apply for them? (Hm, maybe that’s the point – hire local!)

    2. BRR*

      There are some parents out there rejoicing that their advice of go and apply in person will finally be right.

      Somebody might be very old fashioned there who has the power to dictate the hiring process. If you are truly interested in the position , apply and if you are selected for an interview see if there’s a problem with other processes being stuck in the past.

    3. MJ*

      I think the red flag (well possibly it’s just a light shade of pink) is that the library is not very tech-y, and public libraries should be tech-y. Given that they are not, you may find that they are short on budget or they have 20th century management. Either of these things could make the library not such a great place to work. (On the other hand, if you ARE tech-y, you may be able to help them shift into the current century.)

      Two other possibilities occur to me. One is that they are governed by a non-library entity (city or county) that is old-fashioned, and the library has no choice but to do it their way. The fact that it is an application with no request for a resume makes this a distinct possibility. The other possibility, which is maybe not so cool, is that they want to pre-judge you when you drop in your application.

      There are upsides! When you drop off your application, you can get a feel for the place, PLUS if they insist on walk-in candidates, the candidate pool will be smaller. If I were applying, I would bring a resume along as well.

    4. Befuddled Squirrel*

      I suspect it’s a hiring policy put in place by someone who’s very old-fashioned or just doesn’t like electronic applications. This could be at the library level or the city level. Public library jobs are government jobs and therefore not immune to idiosyncratic employees and policies that exist for obscure reasons. I would not consider it a red flag.

  101. Ann O'Nemity*

    Would anyone take a job offer for another company that is essentially a big step down but actually has higher pay and way better benefits?

    1. Jamie*

      For me it would depend if it was a step down in responsibility and duties or just title.

      I work for an SMB of a couple hundred employees – I know my title wouldn’t be what it is if I went to a multi-billion corp with thousands of employees. But if the work were interesting and the money better I wouldn’t care. Different environment.

      But if someone inexplicably wanted to pay me more money to be 1st tier tech support and have no autonomy and no variety of duties – no decision making? Nah – I’m too curmudgeonly to just follow orders if I thought they were incorrect without having a voice.

      Although some days that kind of gig does sound awfully appealing – it’s my fantasy where I can come in and do a solid 8 and forget about work when not there…but anyone who knows me I’d be happy with that for a day, if that, and I’d spend the rest of my life kicking myself.

    2. Ruffingit*

      Yeah, I might. It depends on what is important to you and what your career trajectory is. I know someone who did the opposite in that she took a pay cut for a job with more advancement opportunities. This really comes down to what you’re looking for in your career. I can absolutely see taking more money and better benefits especially if you’re talking about better health insurance, for example, and you know you’re going to have some health stuff come up soon or better 401k matching or whatever.

      So yeah, I can absolutely see doing this depending on your life situation.

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      New company is a giant Fortune 100, while current company is a small and local. I’d lose some authority and autonomy that I currently enjoy. To be honest, I’m not qualified for my current title at the new company, as I don’t have experience managing a department and budget on that scale. The new company would have better long-term advancement opportunities, though. It’s a tough decision.

      1. Jamie*

        I think all of us who go from smallish to the bigger companies like that lose some autonomy – because you just can’t give people the kind of free reign in such a large system as you can when it’s controlled and smaller.

        That would be a tough decision for me, too. I’m very happy with many aspects of my job – most the variety and autonomy – both of which I’d lose if I went bigger. But there is only so far I could advance here so barring a huge change or new locations the challenges are not as steep as they would be elsewhere.

        Security vs challenge has always been my crossroads in everything. This is the kind of thing you’re just going to have to soul search and figure out what you really want.

        The old trick of if you had to decide right now – no thought right now immediately which do you do doesn’t always work for everyone – because people like me will always choose security when forced to make a decision without time to go over all the data.

      2. BRR*

        In this situation I might consider it. I think partially it depends if you’re willing to give up money for that authority and autonomy. Plus in the long-term you could possibly get it back if advancement is possible and in the mean time make more money doing it.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Can you picture staying there for the rest of your life? Or a long time, at least? Leaving that job could mean a substantial pay cut.

        Conversely, what are your life goals? Personal life goals, I mean. How well does this move fit with where you picture yourself in a few years?

        Lastly, big fish/small pond or little fish/big pond. Which is better for you? Picture yourself coming home at night after working at New Job. Are you energized or exhausted?

  102. Megan*

    What would be a reasonable starting salary for a legal assistant to two attorneys? LCOL area, and glassdoor hasn’t been too helpful.

  103. Helka*

    Does anyone have advice for managing a workload move into a queue system?

    Currently, my department gives out our daily workload in the form of a spreadsheet listing the items that need to be worked for the day. I’ve found this really valuable as I can look at my workload and rearrange it to the best order to suit, and know if I’m going to have a lot of easy items or more difficult items that will take more time.

    But sometime in the next couple months, we’re going to be moving to a queue system — in other words, rather than being handed a list, new items will pop up automatically in our program as we close each old one, and we won’t have a listing.

    I’ve been struggling to get my productivity up over the past year (depression murdered my performance, and it’s been a real journey to bring it back to where it should be) and now I’m worried that with this change, and the sudden lack of the visual aid for what I’ve done and what’s left to do, I’m going to be back to a terrible PPH. My boss was entirely dismissive when I raised this concern with him and asked him for feedback — he doesn’t see how it could possibly be an issue and seemed to think I was just trying to make excuses for poor performance.

    1. Jamie*

      Depending on the queue system this may be even better for your purposes.

      Are you talking about some kind of ticket system or CMMS? Because we use both (tickets for IT and CMMS for maintenance) and yes, the tickets for both autogenerate but you can still see the list.

      I can go in either and look at what is coming up for the week – what’s been done and closed – and you can run reports. Tbh – I wasn’t thrilled when by boss asked me to put in a ticket system a million years ago (he wanted to help me get out from under user’s constant drive bys) and the collateral benefit of being able to run reports on exactly what was done. You can break down over time how much you spend on X or Y – how long an average ABC takes. It’s pretty great.

      But if it’s anything like what I’ve worked with you won’t be surprised by anything – you’ll still be able to see what’s on your agenda for any period of time in the system – the autogeneration and closing of tickets just keeps everything on track.

      Do you know what system it is? Almost all will have a demo online so you can see the view options available to you. It might help assuage your fear about this.

      1. Helka*

        I’m not sure what CMMS is.

        From what I can tell, there’s no kind of “upcoming” list — you close out an item and the next one appears on your screen. I think I’ll be able to see what has been done, but I won’t be able to have the easy visual “okay, I have 10 items left to do and 90 minutes to finish, time to power through.”

        It also smashes a lot of my strategies that have gotten my performance back up — my main one was to organize my daily inventory into “can be finished in an hour” chunks as an easy way to keep myself on track.

  104. Anonymous*

    I’ve recently been interviewing with a company that I really like. The process has been moving very quickly (3 interviews in the span of 3 days). Usually by the time I get home from my interview from the hiring manager asking for creative samples, my availability to come in again, etc. In my last meeting I was advised they plan to make final selections today. That same day, via email I was asked my salary requirements. Instead of divulging a number and potentially shooting myself in the foot I asked what their range was. They told me a number that for the industry, amount of responsibility in the role, my level of experience and even my current salary is just too low!! I can’t even believe the current manager is ok making this amount of money. To give perspective they offered $45k plus a bonus plan (which is not guaranteed money!) for a manager role. I currently make $53K as a specialist. I responded asking for details on the bonus plan to see if maybe that would justify the reduction in base pay for me. I also believe that I made a misstep and countered too high. I thanked them for sharing the information, asked my follow up questions and if their range was flexible. I thought if I was asking for flexibility I should at least give a number. Be part of the solution. I informed the hiring manager that the proposed salary was below my current salary and that I was thinking more along the lines of $60 – $70K. I gave solid reasoning after researching researching similar roles at other brands on sites like glassdoor and salary.com. It’s also based on the expected boost from stepping into a higher title and more responsibilities and the fact that I have 6 years of directly related experience. The problem is I never received a response. Usually this hiring manager responds immediately and I thought I was one of the top candidates. So I’m not sure what to do next. I wish I could have the attitude of move on, their loss but the truth is I’ve been interviewing for over a year and a half and this is the closest I’ve come to an offer. I am pretty desperate to move on from my current role. Granted not desperate enough to devalue myself working for a salary I simply can’t afford to live on…but pretty close! I’m very open to working out some type of compensation package. Especially if the bonus plan can make up for the low base but I can’t negotiate with myself. Should I try reaching out one last time?

    1. BRR*

      If $60-$70k is acceptable including the bonus I would give them a reasonable amount of time to respond (purposely vague because I don’t know how long to give). If you don’t hear back you could follow up reiterating how much enthusiasm you have for the position and clarify that that range is with the bonus. That is a huge jump in salary but might be possible to get the base salary higher and the bonus would bring it into your range.

  105. Ann Furthermore*

    Work related vent….had to call into a meeting this morning at 6:30 to give a presentation to a bunch of executives. The whole thing would have taken 5-10 minutes tops. Instead they kept interrupting me and the discussion kept getting derailed. Then we had to rush to finish and my most critical point that I needed to discuss was just thrown in at the last minute while everyone was getting ready to leave.

    I really wanted to tell them all to zip it for 5 minutes and let me finish, and then they could all pee around the conference room and mark their territory.

    Grrrr.

    1. Tex*

      Start your presentation with the most important points. It’s not a TV show or a novel, so why try to have a dramatic ending? Linear narratives don’t always work, especially in small groups.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Good point. It was a key decision on one thing, which I was able to get through, but that decision is going to force another big issue that has been the source of much debate. It was that second thing that got rushed at the end because all these senior VPs could not shut up for 5 minutes and let me finish.

  106. Beth Anne*

    My job search is seriously getting frustrating for a few reasons:

    1) All the jobs in my area that I find are through temp agencies. I don’t mind going through one but I feel like you get the run around with these people.

    2) These temp agencies still tell me I don’t have enough experience. I did an internship last year for over a year in my field. They keep looking at my experience from 5 years ago when I was in a different field for jobs since they say I don’t “qualify” for the stuff I want. I’m seriously at a loss of what to do.

    3) People LOVE to give unsolicited advice. My sister who has never had to really search for a job b/c she works in childcare with high turnover seems to think I’m not getting jobs b/c I have NO confidence in myself and my lack of quality references.

    I’m beginning to think I have to move to another state/area in order to find quality work. There is a career fair for homeschooled high schoolers tomorrow that I’m seriously thinking about going b/c there will be people in my field that I can at least talk to.

    People keep telling me I need to volunteer with a CPA or bookkeeping practice except 1 month of volunteering isn’t going to fill my resume with 5 years of experience :(

  107. MarketingBelle*

    I’m a legal marketing manager who is completely overworked and underpaid. I’m a department of one, making me both the most junior and senior person and everything in between. I work a lot. Normally work from 9am-8pm. I also spend a ton of time representing the firm at cocktail parties, meetings, parades, fundraisers, and trade shows on the weekends. I have a litany of problems:
    1. No one at my firm knows what marketing is, thus they don’t value the work that I do.
    2. Because of problem #1, I cannot be properly evaluated. Additionally, my evaluation includes the input of 11 lawyers and my new supervisor who, by her own admission, doesn’t know anything about marketing (she’s the HR manager).
    3. My supervisor informed me that there is a general consensus that I am inept. But she personally thinks that I can do the job, I just lack confidence. This woman does not know me at all!
    4. I’m still in my 20’s and the same age as many of the attorney’s children, thus they treat me like a child.
    5. I have eight years of marketing and public relations experience and 10 years working in an office and never have I met people so childish and petty. When people come to me directly to fix a problem or mistake, I take care of it immediately. Yet they still must tell EVERYONE how I messed up. For example, Attorney X noticed a small grammatical error in something that I published internally. I had to completely overhaul the document before it would be published externally, but because he brought it to my attention I fixed it immediately. That was a month ago. This week after the Board of Directors meeting, Attorney Y (one of the 11 attorneys who supervise me) says that Attorney X reported how I published a document “riddled with errors” and asked that fix it immediately. I then sounded extremely defensive trying to explain how it was a small error and how it had been fixed for weeks and long before anyone from the outside laid eyes upon it. I would have thought that there were more pressing problems to report out at a Board of Directors. Forget that I’ve decreased the budget and increased revenue. Forget the hundreds of little things I do right every single day. My screw-ups are matters of record, which further reinforce #3; I’m inept. I’m feverishly in search of another job. I just don’t know what to do in the mean time, especially with evaluations coming up next week.

      1. AVP*

        One slight possibility for your evaluations – do you have any metrics on how well your efforts have led to new clients (or whatever you’re supposed to be getting them)? News clips, website interaction numbers, anything? It might be helpful to put together a dossier to have on hand in your evaluation if you need it.

        1. Ann O'Nemity*

          I think this is good advice.

          Marketingbelle, try to be your own cheerleader. If metrics aren’t given to you, make your own and show concrete evidence of how you’re adding value. Don’t let the one-off mistakes define you when you’re accomplishing so much. And definitely start looking for another job. Eleven hour days, unpaid, petty co-workers who treat you like a kid, and no recognition for accomplishments = far too many negatives to deal with.

    2. Chloe Silverado*

      I don’t have much advice, I just wanted to let you know that I empathize. I also do marketing for a professional services firm eand it’s really tough. I feel like I have 15 different “bosses” even though I only have one manager, and making sure all 15 demanding and selfish personalities have their needs met instantly is impossible. I do my best to stay organized, but find that the occasional moment where I make a mistake is much more high profile than the things I accomplish. I’m lucky in that my actual manager does value my work – I cannot even imagine being in your shoes. The best thing you can do for your evaluation is bring in a list of successful projects, goals met, budget vs. revenue and make your case with facts. They may never see you as anything other than inept, but at least you’ll have it on paper that you accomplished a lot. That will also help you in your job search – good material for resumes and prep for potential interviews. Also, see if there’s a way for you to turn all of those community outreach activities into networking for a new job. If there’s something personal to gain, giving up your free time may feel less frustrating. Good luck!!

  108. K-Dog*

    I am currently temping at an organization, my boss is very strict and always busy. I wouldn’t mind working here full time, and its been about a month. Is it appropriate to ask my boss if there is a possibility to become permanent? if so how do I go about asking???

    1. Stephanie*

      There’s nothing wrong with just casually inquiring if the position may go permanent. BUT remember that the company has to pay a large sum of money to a temp agency to actually hire you on. That can be anything from a percent of the yearly salary you’re to be paid or a lump sum. For my sister to be hired at the current company she’s worked at for the last 2 months, they’d have to pay the agency 7 grand. If they wait an additional 6 months to hire her, they don’t have to pay the agency anything. So this can play into why a company would prefer you stay “temp.”

      1. K-Dog*

        Thanks for you answer. I know for a fact that they have a policy that they cant keep a temp for more than 3 months without hiring them. she hasn’t given me much feedback. My agency called and asked how everything was going around my 2nd week and she said it was good “just good”. The full time salary is substantially more than what I am making as a temp and money is tight. I am getting impatient.

        1. Stephanie*

          Honestly, most companies should want to hire over keeping temps indefinitely. Say you get $12 an hour while temping at a company. That company is actually paying $20+ an hour for you, but the agency is keeping a good share.

          With a policy of no-temping for more than 3 months, they should be thinking about hiring you on, maybe not within the next couple weeks, but they’re thinking about the idea.

          1. K-Dog*

            yea the last place I worked kept me as a temp for 9 months, I eventually left because they kept waving a full time job over my head and nothing came from it. Its sad to say but i just don’t want to be dragged on which I know it wont here. I also don’t want to start looking for jobs and going on interviews (taking days off) giving them a bad impression and messing up what I have here. But if they don’t have intentions on keeping me I would like to know so I can start looking more aggressively. (I am so confused)

            1. Stephanie*

              What you’re saying makes sense, and temping at a lower pay really does suck. It’s hard to make a living wage while temping. BUT I think a month is a bit quick. They’re still getting to know you and your work.

              If anything, it can’t hurt to touch base with your boss and see if she will tell you directly if you’re working out and if she finds it likely they’ll hire you on. But I wouldn’t start looking for another place just yet.

          2. Colette*

            Keep in mind that companies pay the premium to the temp agency, but that doesn’t mean it’s cheaper for them to bring you on as an employee. When you work for a temp agency, the company you’re temping for doesn’t pay for benefits or taxes or all of the other expenses that go with having an employee.

            1. Jamie*

              Right – and a lot of companies (esp in my industry) use them because our labor needs are flexible and dependent on the workload. You may need 200 of a position one month and 75 the next.

              It meets a need for flexible staffing.

  109. Jamie*

    This isn’t really a question or a rant – just a musing.

    I like to think of myself as fairly self-aware. I know I am teeming with flaws, so when I keep stumbling over the same things I know I need to figure out how to get out of my own way.

    I know someone who has left 2 jobs due to personality conflicts, and is struggling in their current job and can’t figure out why no one likes them. They seem genuinely perplexed why these issues of rubbing co-workers the wrong way is following them. So when asked directly about why I had certain issues I answered directly – I have issues with the lying and backpedaling, what feels like a dismissive attitude toward non-negotiable procedure, and blame shifting for most issues – our culture really frowns on that. I was polite and direct – but he asked so I answered in a neutral tone why I have issues with him.

    He seems to be addressing these, with me, and this week I’ve had no problems. But that doesn’t equate to being BFFs – and the problems are still rampant with other people.

    He really seems to not get why people can’t see how excellent he is – because he really sees himself differently than those who work with him. And apparently those who worked with him at the last few jobs – but he’s open about the fact that he’s had problems with no one liking him at all these places…which is odd. It’s not like he’s in denial about the issue, just isn’t able to figure out why.

    No obvious social awkwardness (the opposite – very smooth for surface stuff, crumbles when it gets to the showing not telling portion of work – which for us is most of it), smart, seems to have the tools to be capable but is more about impressing people than getting stuff done…which ironically is the only way to impress people here.

    Just weird how people can go through life seeing themselves so differently than others see them.

    1. stellanor*

      I worked with a guy who was great at his job in a lot of ways but had ZERO soft skills. He was rude, abrasive, demanding, whiny, loud, and had a tendency to go around slamming things and muttering under his breath whenever he didn’t get his way.

      He was a temp, and the entire time we overlapped I heard from him that he would ALWAYS be a temp because he didn’t have a college degree and that was why no one would hire him. Another temp in the same role as him, also with no college degree, with whom he worked closely, got hired on full-time. Other (now-ex) temp is a delight to work with because he actually has soft skills and can cope with criticism and/or stuff not going well. But this dude still insisted the lack of a degree was why he didn’t get hired.

      His contract ended. He didn’t get hired. I never had the heart to tell him it wasn’t the degree, it was the massive attitude problem and the fact that he’d never met a social skill.

    2. Stephanie*

      I imagine it’s a bit similar to when people look in the mirror. No one sees what everyone else sees. Some people might think, jeeze, I have the biggest pores! But that’s not something anyone else notices. The opposite is also true. I know a girl who thinks she’s lovely and well put together, who stands in the mirror and honestly thinks she looks great. But all I see is that she didn’t brush her hair and that her shirt has clearly been lying on the floor for several days.

    3. Ruffingit*

      I think we all see ourselves differently than other people do, but there are definitely times where that goes way into the deep abyss of “You are not who you think you are, it’s causing you problems.” This guy seems to have fallen into that abyss. I’m glad you were honest with him because that’s the only one to effect any kind of change.

      I know someone like this as well. Just completely ignorant to the personality issues that cause him to be socially unacceptable. Doesn’t realize how abrasive and unwelcoming his demeanor is. I could go on and on, but the point is that some people just don’t get it and never will. Working with those people is rough sometimes.

    4. OriginalYup*

      “He really seems to not get why people can’t see how excellent he is – because he really sees himself differently than those who work with him. ”

      Also, he might just not care about the things that are generally important to workplace relationships. It’s possible he’s genuinely surprised to find that XYZ behavior reads as deceitful to someone else, because he considers it efficiency or whatever. But it’s also possible that others are objecting to really obvious breaks in the social contract — “Steve, I don’t appreciate it when you punch me in the face and steal my wallet from my desk” — and he’s disingenuously all innocent because he has no interest in changing — “Really? I had no idea it was bothering you. The next time I punch you in the face, could you let me know that it bothers you?”.

    5. Ann O'Nemity*

      You know, you can be smart and capable but not productive. And you can have great overall social skills and be well-liked in your social circle but still be disliked by co-workers. It sounds like your co-worker doesn’t realize the differences.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I tend to think that some of that is a by-product of upbringing and the people surrounding him. I bet he has stories!

      However, since he seems to be responding to your advice then that is good.

      I had a friend that reeeally had a screwy up-bringing and even into adulthood was surrounded by people who- well, they had a lot of misconceptions about life.

      I could tell her a few things and she would work on those things. But after a bit she would hit overload and not be able to adapt to any new-to-her information. The overload would pass and we would be back on track again.
      There were times where I could actually see what I was telling her flew in direct opposition to what her friends and family were telling her. It had to be confusing for her. And then to have to deal with the shock of “no, that is not how life works” would require a bit more time out.

      [If I gave an example you’d probably find it distressing. I did.]

      However, over the long haul she would regain her balance and get back to trying to upgrade her act. Sometimes people get such a rocky launch in life it is almost impossible to for them to get on a better track.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Women are lower than dirt.
          Not capable of learning.
          Etc.

          I could have cried. It gets worse, can’t say too much.

          We had a Great Boss (GB). GB and I would kind of work off of each other to get her going in a different direction. She was super smart and caught on scary fast. GB and I would laugh because we did not even have to finish our sentences- she already got the concept being presented.
          She could see that we were in her corner and pulling for her- so it was all good.

  110. Suit Up of Dress Down?*

    Hi there!
    I know that we have all heard that we should suit up for an interview; but what do you wear when the company’s website specifically says that they are a “casual environment” and “suits won’t impress us?”

    I would not feel comfortable going to this interview in casual clothing, it is with a large company (10,000+ employees) and I am excited about the opportunity. It seems like it would be bad form to show up in casual wear, but if I do show up in something at least business casual such as nice dark jeans, a blouse, and a suit blazer would that look as though I had not researched the company? (their interview dress code is very easy to Google.)

    Has anyone run into this before??

      1. Stephanie*

        Woah! This issue just popped up at my work. We’re completely casual, but an interviewee showed up Wednesday is a nice outfit, but not a formal outfit. Think nice, skinny black pants and a printed shell sleeveless top. I had four, FOUR people comment to me privately that they didn’t think she was trying hard enough, that she was too informal for an interview, that it showed she wasn’t invested….

        Honestly, I took it to mean it was hot out (85 degrees) and she didn’t want to be all sweaty.

        Apparently bringing in a blazer to throw on right before you enter the company’s doors can make all the difference.

        2. Suit up or Dress Down?*

          So a dress or dark jeans, a blouse, AND, a blazer should be alright?

          I know that I will look dressy compared to the rest of the company, but this is an interview and I want to dress to impress! I just also want to make sure they know that I did my homework about their ‘Interview Dress Code’ :)

    2. Stephanie*

      Yup. Suits aren’t the most flattering on me–I’m shorter, busty and broad shouldered, so a suit jacket tends to emphasize all that (so I get excited if I can get away with no suit). If it’s somewhere more casual where I think a black suit would scream poor culture fit, I usually do a dress with heels. I still make sure everything else looks polished and fits and I’ll accessorize with some basic jewelry. I just make sure the dress is better quality.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      I think what you listed sounds perfect.

      I don’t think I could bring myself to show up for ANY job interview in tennis shoes and a t-shirt, regardless of how casual the culture is.

    4. Marina*

      I work in the nonprofit field in a generally casual city, so suits are almost never appropriate. My goal is to be dressed a smidge nicer than my interviewers. Slacks and a blouse generally work best for me. I usually bring a blazer and take it off immediately if I feel overdressed. I would NOT wear jeans, even dark jeans.

    5. Tzippy*

      I have an interview next week with a company where the website said “no suits allowed!” so good question

  111. Jess*

    This might have been covered before, but does anyone have any advice on finding appropriate professional clothing on a tight budget? I’m trying to come off of dealing with disability. Medical bills ate my savings, and I’m relying on food stamps just to eat. Add to that I’m an odd size – a petite 00 – which is not typically found outside of specialty stores. I don’t want to lose job chances because of not being dressed appropriately (I have a degree in an academic field and want to apply for academic jobs) but there is almost nothing to buy clothes with.

    1. Stephanie*

      I find the prettiest things at Goodwill and other consignment shops. It takes longer to find something that fits, but I always get compliments.

      1. Jamie*

        This. I started shopping at consignment stores when my kids were little and then later when money was tight…now I do it because I can get tons of really cute and business appropriate stuff (some with the tags still on) for what one jacket would cost at a mid range store.

        I like to tell myself that I do it to support the charities – and I do – but I really do just love a bargain.

        You’re right – the selection isn’t there in the sense of finding something awesome in the wrong size can be disappointing – but it’s like a treasure hunt and when you find the right thing in just your size it’s like it was meant to be yours.

        I’m weird – but I do love the hunt and gamble aspect. You have to stalk the stores periodically, though, to build a wardrobe. I’ve never had luck trying to get a specific thing on short notice. For that it’s the mall.

        I know people who make much less than I do who would never lower themselves to shop there – good, leave more stuff for me.

        Oh – and furniture. Bought a $19 couch for the family room – just a kicking around thing in this cool and kitschy slipcover someone clearly handmade with a lot of skill.

        Turns out under the slipcover was an Ethan Allen couch in perfect condition – not one rip or scratch – no wear even. Clearly this had never been sat on sans slipcover. I never bought a painting for $1 and sold it for a mil – but that was a cool discovery once I got it home.

    2. Stephanie*

      If you’ve got the time, I’d dig around consignment stores or Goodwill in the nice part of your Metro area. They’ll have nicer clothes at lower prices.

      Are there any job assistance nonprofits you could access? It sounds like you’d qualify for assistance based on your income. They may have access to clothing resources or know of charities that donate clothes for job purposes.

      Are you good at sewing? Or have a friend who’s good at sewing? I had a friend who used to work in theater costume design and would exchange tailoring for baked goods.

      1. f in*

        I’m actually pretty good with sewing. Suits are hard though. You don’t really see much in my size at second-hand stores. I’m in that unfortunate range where most of the stuff in my size is aimed at girls rather than adult women. Especially since where I am the nearest thing that could properly be called a city is an hour and a half away.

        Is it appropriate to wear a nice dress rather than a suit to interviews? I feel like dresses or skirt sets are easier to find and tailor, while suit jackets are near impossible.

          1. Stephanie*

            HAHA. Yeah, suits are tough since there are so many seams and different parts that need to work in concert for it to fit.

            Others may disagree, but I don’t think a nice dress would be unprofessional, save for interviewing at a really conservative place like a bank, consulting house, or law firm.

    3. Suit up or Dress Down?*

      I am really liking the idea of going with a dress; it doesn’t feel too casual and I can pair it with a statement necklace and nice heels.

      My main concern was looking as though I had not done my research. Like I said, the note on interview wear is right on their website.

      As for clothes on a budget; I have found that Express has affordable clothing more often than not if you shop the ‘Extra 40% off!’ sales. I also love to go to St. Vincent De Paul’s thrift store.

    4. Sparrow*

      Maybe you can get a couple of basics like a pair of black pants or a skirt in your size – which might require spending a bit more, but then augment it with tops that are less expensive.

      I know Target and Kohls have nice things and you may be able to find petite sizes online. I also like places like Gap, Express and The Limited and they frequently have sales and coupons.

      I also found these links to be helpful:

      http://www.wardrobeoxygen.com/2012/09/ask-allie-career-wear-on-a-budget.html

      http://www.wardrobeoxygen.com/2012/11/ask-allie-cheap-work-clothing.html

      1. Anon*

        The career wear on a budget links look good!

        I’m tall so I can’t add more recommendations, but I know someone OP’s size and height. She says American Eagle pants and jeans fit best.

  112. stellanor*

    My new pet peeve, which keeps happening this week:

    Coworker: “Hey do you know what we’re doing about X?”
    Me: “No, sorry, I wasn’t involved with X, no clue.”
    Coworker: “I thought you were in charge of X.”
    Me: “Nope, Manager and Other Coworker handled that.”
    Coworker: “But do you know detail about X?”
    Me: “No, try asking Manager, she’ll definitely know.”
    Coworker: “I really thought you were handling X.”

    I understand that you thought I was the person to talk to about X, but reiterating that thought 10+ times will not make it true! I’ve told you who to ask! STOP ASKING ME! I won’t suddenly have the info you need the fifth time you ask!

    1. Stephanie*

      HA! I just got that yesterday. My co-worker “John” came over to me and said, “Hey, can I ask you about X.”

      I replied, “Actually, co-worker ‘Bill’ does that.”

      John said, “See, I’m curious about timing.”

      I said, “Bill covers that.”

      John said, “Well, I’m hoping to add some changes.”

      I said, “Bill.”

      John, “Right, I just need–”

      Me, “Bill.”

      John, “Do you think–”

      Me, “Bill.”

      This went on for literally several minutes, lol.

    2. MaryMary*

      Many years ago, my cubemate and I were working on similarly named but completely different projects. I was working on project XYX, and Tim was working on project YXY. We put up signs in our cubes: “Mary is on Project XYX!” and “Tim is working on Project YXY!” It didn’t work. People would still stop by and ask us for updates on the wrong project.

  113. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I’d like to bounce something off all of you.

    I’ve had a really exciting offer from a major media company to become, essentially, the sole sponsor of the site. I’ll call them MediaCo for the purpose of this question (although in reality it’s a recognizable name; I’m keeping it confidential for now). MediaCo would provide ads for the site, among other things, and I’d be really thrilled to work with them. The offer is a good one, financially and otherwise.

    The snag is this: The URL of the site would become askamanager.mediaco.com. Visits to askamanager.org would automatically redirect to that URL (and other associated technical issues would be covered). My concern is that it feels like a major rebranding of the site to me. They wouldn’t own the site at all — I’d retain full ownership and control — but that URL feels to me like it would create the impression that they owned it, which I think is a deal-breaker for me, but I’m curious to hear other takes on this.

    1. K-Dog*

      It would come off to others like you are a direct part of their company or what you post is a reflection of them and vice versa (whatever they do will be a reflection of you).
      But it seems like a great opportunity is there a compromise?

    2. Claire*

      If I visited a site with that URL, I would definitely think that MediaCo owned the site and controlled the content on it. Whether or not I would therefore trust the content there would depend a lot on the MediaCo, but it would carry less weight to me than what was perceived to be an “independent” site.

    3. Del*

      I hate to say it (since it sounds like that really would be a great step for you in general), but I agree with that impression. It would absolutely make it look like they owned it, and my gut feeling would be that they would have veto power over anything you put up here.

        1. Ruffingit*

          I don’t think he’s saying that would actually be the case that they have veto power, just that it would appear that they do. And I agree with that. Even though that isn’t the case at all, I could see thinking the company has control over content because quite often they do when they own a website and since the perception is that they would own the website (even though they don’t in reality)…

        2. Evan (in the USA)*

          True, but there would still be that impression. A somewhat-political blog I follow recently moved from their own domain name to Big Newspaper’s under a similar contract; now there’s a comment every couple days saying, “Why is Big Newspaper taking this position???”

          1. K-Dog*

            exactly, and for instance if the big company supports killing butterflies, your readers may feel you are apart of the butterfly killing. its all about the perception

    4. Ruffingit*

      If I see the name of a business in a URL, then yes it appears that the site is owned by that company. That is definitely the impression given by having their name in the URL.

    5. AVP*

      Agreed that I think you would appear to be owed by the other site, even if you retained everything in actuality.

      Would you be able to keep your site design, or would it be with their wrapper and commenting system?

    6. Stephanie*

      Oooh, it sounds like a great opportunity for advertising and visibility, but the specific MediaCo might hurt your brand. I’d know that it’d still be the same great AAM, but a new visitor might trust your advice less if it’s somewhere tabloidly like Gawker or listiclely (yay neologisms) like BuzzFeed.

        1. Joey*

          Sounds like a good opportunity, although it would probably lead me to believe it would influence what you write. For example I would think you might be apprehensive to be critical of employment practices that they employ. That might not be true, but I would certainly wonder if being paid to write is biasing you.

          1. non*

            I agree with that, and I like/trust you a lot. It’s just hard to see a very lucrative sponsorship not affecting the way you write about stuff, even if subconsciously. Like someone said, it may be worth the trade off — you certainly deserve anything positive that comes your way for the volume and quality of the work you do. Either way, kudos!

    7. Jessica*

      It would look like MediaCo owned the site and the content if their name was used like that in the URL.

      If this happened to any site that I visited I would be concerned that MediaCo would be able to use my information from the site and would question whether or not the author of the posts had any real control over how that information was used, or not used. I would also wonder if the author still owned the blog or if her/his posts would go through MediaCo first.

      I wouldn’t want to miss out on an opportunity like this if it were me, but I would ask MediaCo why they felt adding their name to the URL was so important. If it is a deal breaker, I would be very careful to make sure that I maintained all actual ownership of the content as well as control over any information about my readers.

      1. Kerr*

        +1 to all of this.

        As a new reader, I’m usually WAY less inclined to comment if I think a site is owned or managed by a big media company, vs. by an independent blogger. Usually that’s because their commenting systems are terrible, but it’s also because those sites often seem to attract the most argumentative and trolly comments. I tend to automatically assume that large media site = problematic comments section, so I usually just ignore it. There’s also the concern about how a big company might use my comments. (I know they’re public anyway, but still.)

    8. Mimmy*

      While I would imagine your core readership will recognize that you’d still have ownership and control of the site, I agree that it might come across as being owned and controlled by MediaCo to those not as familiar with this site.

      It’s ultimately up to you, of course, but if I was feeling leery about a potential rebranding that might not be an accurate reflection of how I’d want to portray myself, I probably wouldn’t pursue it.

    9. Jamie*

      I can’t imagine this changing how any of your regular posters view your site – but for new readers it would look like it was owned by the company. At least that’s what I would assume if I didn’t know otherwise.

      Maybe a little notification under your logo about all content and views being solely yours – or something like that with better wording. Like they do on TV – the views presented here don’t represent XYZ TV or their management – but in reverse.

      And you already answered this but reputation is paramount – but you wouldn’t consider anything tabloidy so I wasn’t worried.

      Selfishly I’d hate to see anything change regarding layout – because so many sites move to the click bait and it’s such a PITA on mobile. And for you I click through on your outside sites – but it’s rare that I do it for other articles. I’d hate to see you lose new people due to the aversion of clickbait. (which is fast becoming the telemarketing of the online world – can’t disengage fast enough.)

      I remember when Bnet changed to the CBS news thing they have now and I went from being a daily reader of certain columnists to never checking it because it was such a pita to navigate because they took bylines off the main page and I didn’t know who it was until I clicked through – it was irritating and cumbersome and every now and then I still wonder if Steve Tobak is writing anywhere anymore, but not enough to search.

      I’d hate to see that happen to you with casual or new readers so if layout was taken out of your hands I’d worry.

    10. Molly*

      I think it sounds exciting, and the URL change wouldn’t bother me unless it was a weird one – askamanager.pillsbury.com would be weird!

      But I would suggest making really sure that you’ll retain design control of the site. I’ve seen a lot of blogs lose their cohesiveness and sense of community because a sponsor became more involved in design and changed the entire look/feel to fit around their ads.

      1. Jamie*

        I know you were kidding, but on the off chance that it’s actually Pillsbury I collect Doughboy and Mrs. Doughboy stuff and I would be VERY excited about that.

        And now I’m going to be sad when it’s not…unless…if it were Sanrio? Would I get paid per comment due to my avatars?

        Okay – I’ll stop.

    11. Traveler*

      I don’t think its an issue as long as the content, comments, and ads wouldn’t change drastically. I know I’ll be in the minority, but if I need information I’m not that worried about the site having “Media Co” in it. We live in a world where anything of quality is eventually bought up by larger companies when they see it. I would assume this would also mean that Media Co could also help you reach a much larger audience, in addition to being profitable for you. Also – I’ll say that I find the “branded posts” much more distracting than click bait, mediaco in the address bar, or pretty much anything else. I accept that bloggers need to make money and I can’t blame them for it, so I put up with it, but it really makes them look/sound less authentic/genuine. Will you also have to continue to do branded posts with this change?

    12. Tzippy*

      I would still visit this site no matter what you did with it, but especially to a new person it would look like MediaCo owned it.

    13. Katie the Fed*

      Hmmm…

      Well, first of all, congratulations on building a site that got such a great offer!

      I think it really comes down to what you envision for this site and your brand. And you are building a name with what you do here. Do you want to hitch that to another company now or retain the identity of it for yourself for now?

      That being said, you put a TON of work into this site, and you deserve to get paid (handsomely) for it.

      But, is this what you want? Your hesitance/discomfort to me seems to say it’s not.

      Is this negotiable?

      I think another thing to consider is you’re often an advocate for employees in dealing with their managers. Tying yourself to a corporation might make you seem…a little more corporate, if that makes sense?

      1. Jamie*

        Oh, and I know you know this Alison, but I’m me and can’t shut up in case others reading are in the same spot …

        make sure there’s an out clause so if you’re unhappy or things take an unexpected turn you can severe without losing your brand or money.

        2. non*

          Absolutely.

          I admittedly don’t know all of the details of this situation and it’s not identical, but it reminds me of a similar thing. I’ve watched Grace Helbig’s youtube videos for awhile now. She created and filmed, edited, etc. a ton of awesome content while being managed by My Damn Channel, and when choosing not to renew her contract lost all rights to her stuff, including her channel name and the whole identity that surrounded it. My Damn Channel continues to make money off her content, which I’m sure is contractually deserved, but she lost a lot — wouldn’t want that to happen to AAM.

    14. Ann O'Nemity*

      Are you sure they wouldn’t own the site? It would be on their domain. Even if they didn’t own it, it would clearly give that impression. People who come to this site might end up on the other mediaco site, which is probably what they’re hoping – that and the potentially for a SEO increase.

      Perhaps a compromise would be that askamanager DOT mediaco DOT com redirects to your current address. They could use their version in their advertisements for tracking purposes. But the real URL would still be clearly yours.

    16. Anon*

      Exciting! I see how it would be good for you.

      If I were a new reader, I would wonder if MediaCo affected the site’s content. (Then I’d read the content and think “whatever, I like it either way.”) As a current reader, I’m just curious about the ads they’d provide.

    17. Persephone Mulberry*

      My immediate, visceral gut reaction to the domain change detail was “eeeeeeeeesh” with accompanying grimace. I think you would be doing your brand a huge disservice by allowing it.

    18. Not So NewReader*

      Not only does the url name give the feeling of ownership but it also could preclude you from having other sponsors, especially competitors (real or imagined).

      You have a damn fine thing going on here, Alison. Hold out for what YOU want and the way you want it. This offer came and so will others.

      I have to chuckle. A well-known company wanted to move into a town near me. Town board said NO because of X. Company said “We do X. Take it or leave it.” Town board said “Bye!” The company came back months later “Okay, we won’t do X, can we come here?” Sure, why not.

      You wouldn’t let these people write their name on the deed to your property. Don’t let them write their name in your url, either.

    19. Befuddled Squirrel*

      Two concerns:

      1) Even if the original contract gives you complete editorial control, they could still try to exert some influence over the content and this could escalate with time.

      2) Their content and reputation could change over time. The media industry is unstable, especially these days.

    20. Vancouver Reader*

      Does this media company own Sheba? If not, what does your cats think about this sole sponsorship?

      In all seriousness though, I think like anything else, people will find it a bit strange at first, but after a while, it won’t be noticed anymore.

    21. Shell*

      I agree with the rest: the casual reader would definitely think MediaCo owned the site and has influence (if not outright editorial authority) on the site content whether or not it’s true.

      Could you compromise and say askamanager.mediaco.com redirects to askamanager.org instead? So flip the redirect around? If MediaCo are linking to you with their domain name you still might be suspected of being influenced (again, whether or not it’s true), but I think the effects would be far less than if you had mediaco right in your URL.

    22. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I loved the opportunity right up until the part you gave up your domain brand.

      Giving up the brand is a big deal. Do you get more in return ($$ + piggyback off of medico brand), that’s the evaluation.

      1. AB Normal*

        Yes. Until we got to the part of becoming a subdomain of mediaco, I was excited about this opportunity for AAM as well!

        I think that if they really want you, they should accept this compromise other suggested: the subdomain askamanager.mediaco.com could redirect to askamanager.org, so they could use the subdomain to link to your original site.

        Anything other than that, and the message is clear: you are part of *their* business, because this type of URL is a subdomain.

        I’d also worry that, if it turns out not to be a great partnership, and you terminated the contract, the askamanager.mediaco.com URL would stop working, and new readers who found you through Mediaco.com and bookmarked your website, would now have a broken link, and might need to google you to find the original URL, askamanager.org.

        There’s just too much downside to the part of becoming a subdomain. If you manage to remove this condition from the agreement, I can see it working much better!

    23. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Thanks, y’all. This is really good input to have while I think this over.

      (Full disclosure: I’m leaning toward no, as I have been from the time this requirement was presented, but I’m letting it percolate in my head to make sure I’m not passing up something great.)

      1. ElizabethM*

        If the site is a news organization I feel like that wouldn’t have as much of a negative impact because I think it’s common for readers to follow columnists and for there to be an expectation of journalistic integrity which might also prevent the possible perception of bias for new readers.

  114. BrianA*

    A twist on the “I need to CC my boss to get things done at work” – my office has a culture of CC’ing lots of people on all kinds of things that aren’t that relevant to them. I think that it creates a large volume of unnecessary email, and even though it’s intended to “keep people in the loop”, it has the opposite effect because it results in a lot of cluttered inboxes.

    We’re in the process of thinking through how we can work more effectively as a group, and I think this could be one area to tackle. Does anyone have any experience in overcoming workplace where there are lots of email CCs ? Any thoughts on alternatives to this, or other approaches that might help reduce the clutter?

    1. Jamie*

      It can be a problem for sure – I just reply to the sender (never reply all) asking why I’m on that.

      Sometimes I’m cc’ed because they aren’t getting responses and seeing me on it makes people answer some things faster (I’m like the muscle, the bouncer, the bodyguard standing silently in the background making sure no one gets out of line. Jamie the Enforcer.) but sometimes it has nothing to do with me and they just included anyone they thought tangentially related.

      The people working on this project use a computer, Jamie uses a computer, maybe she’ll be interested. I never am.

      Ditto when I get invited to meetings and I have no idea why. I ask – if there is a reason and they just didn’t explain it, fine. If it’s because it may be contentious and they want some support – usually fine. If there is no good reason I decline.

      You can’t just summon me to your email parties or meetings because you love me, although I do bring the fun, you need to have a reason.

      But yeah – just ask nicely why you’re added. It makes people think a little more carefully about ccing people willy nilly like it’s free or something, and that’s always a good thing.

    2. Befuddled Squirrel*

      Yes. Find another way to communicate. Options include group instant messaging, forums, wiki’s, blogs, project management software, etc. These tools also make it easy to organize the content so you can refer back to it later.

  115. Wrongful Termination*

    I am in a strange situation. I was terminated from my job in March. I was terminated after reporting my manager for illegal behavior; after working with a lawyer I am close to reaching a separation agreement with my former employer.

    As part of that agreement though I cannot speak about the agreement in any detail, nor can I discuss my ‘perceived’ reasons for my departure from my former place of employment, etc.

    The HR Dept. at my former employer will also not discuss my job performance there beyond confirming dates that I worked.

    How do I explain this in a job interview? If asked why I left my previous company I would like to say, “I have many friends at Company A and am proud of the work that I was able to do there. There were many changes that occurred while I was at Company A and by the time I left the department I was hired into was very different from when I entered it. I am looking forward to new opportunities.”

    Now, all of that is true, but it skips over why I left. If pressed for more information I could say, “The company went through many changes and while they were redefining what my department would do it was decided that I would not be a good fit. I was surprised by their decision, as were many of my coworkers, but I respect that they are going through a time of restructuring. I was assured that it had nothing to do with my work and I am still friends with many people there. ”

    Again, all of this is TRUE– that is the reason that I was given. (The office equivalent of “It’s not you, it’s me”– I was told that the dept was going through a change that would not fit with me.) I know that there was more to it, but I don’t want to, and frankly can’t, share that information.

    Does anyone think that going with the above is wrong? Anyone have a better course of action?

    1. At the library*

      What you are proposing sounds fair to me, but I am hoping someone with a similar situation or an HR background will chime in. :/ Maybe submit this to Allison?

    2. CTO*

      Can you say that you left over concerns about illegal or unethical activity, or does that betray your agreement? I think that any employer would understand 100% why you left and wouldn’t question you for leaving without having something else lined up?

      If you say something like “no longer a good fit” I’d be prepared to give more specifics about what would be a good fit this time around.

      1. OP*

        That would go against the agreement. I cannot say anything negative about the company, even if it is truthful; that is what is making this so difficult.

        Plus I would like to minimize the negativity if possible, apart from working with this one manager and reporting to an apparently ineffective HR department, I really did enjoy my time at the company and have many friends there. Not to sound too altruistic, but I do not want to paint the entire company in this light. I truly think it would shoot me in the foot more than help me as, in general, this company has a great reputation. I would have to provide many more details than I am able to in order for my concerns to seem legitimate.

        1. Jamie*

          Is your former employer going to state that you were fired or resigned? You need to know how they will answer this question and get it the way you want it before you sign a separation agreement.

          Your answers are fine and true – but I asked why you left and you give me that without details I’m going to wonder why you’re being cagey and probably assume you’re hiding why you were fired way before I’d think about a confidentiality agreement.

          Personally I’d practice in the mirror saying, “I left due to a change in X, but due to a confidential separation agreement I’m prohibited from saying any more” with a knowing look.

          Not being able to talk about the details is different than not being able to say there was one. That answer I’ll assume the company is covering it’s ass – not you.

    3. Marina*

      That all sounds good to me. It’s also always a good idea to spin this question into what you ARE looking for at a new job, as well as why you left the past one. Along the lines of “While I enjoyed XYZ at Company A, I’m looking for somewhere where I can ABC.”

  116. Oh baby*

    More of a gripe than anything but what is it about medical receptionists (is that what they’re called?) that they’re so unprofessional? It doesn’t matter what type of office or hospital or center or which speciality, they always spend 98% of the time talking to each other about personal stuff, and are really rude to patients. 3 ppl will set next to each other and will give u 3 diff answes to the same question.
    And then the one who are friendly don’t know any boundaries. They ask all sorts of invasive and personal questions that too in front of a waiting room.

    1. Oh baby*

      I’m posting this in the work thread bc I really want some insight from someone in this position.
      I apologize if I came off as rude here but when you’re constantly jerked around and then treated like crap by an employee, it gets frustrating. I just Habe yet to see someone behave professionally and friendly.

    2. AVP*

      My impression from friends who have held that type of job in between other things is that, in terms of turnover, pay and benefits, those positions are more similar to retail and food service than office jobs, which might explain part of it.

      1. oh baby*

        I never knew that…..maybe there should be some changes. I do now remember a coworker saying she was working as a medical receptionist before she had graduated high school, and she was quite unprofessional (not to mention nosy, dishonest and a jerk)

        I just think it’s extremely disconcerting that someone who has access to medical records and has some sort of hand in providing you medical care is put in the hands of such crappy people. I’ve seen food/retail people who are much much nicer and professional than these people.

          1. oh baby*

            That’s interesting. I think where I’m going is considered a public hospital. I’m not sure where the distinction is…..I’ve almost always had Medicaid but am I to assume that private doesn’t take medicaid?

  117. Wonderlander*

    GREAT NEWS! I’ve been waiting since Wednesday to post this on an open thread! A few weeks/months ago I posted twice in an open thread. Once was asking for advice on how to deal with a long-term unemployed spouse, and then the second post was about Hubby having a 2nd interview and asking for good thoughts :) Well good news, HE GOT THE JOB! We’re beyond excited – being 2 young adults with fully salary careers and benefits will finally help us jump start our lives together! So here’s a feel-good motivational post for those still looking for a job. After 9 months of unemployment, Hubs got hired so you can too! :)

  118. Blame Culture*

    How can I deal with blame culture in our workplace? I make sure never to blame other people, and make sure to say sorry and try to fix any mistakes I may have made. But our work has a heavy blame culture, to the point where the company owner frequently comes over to our department to verbally ask who is to blame as the first order of business when a problem arises. It catches on like wild fire and other departments are frequently throwing other departments under the bus – emails often state “this is your fault, here’s why” – and we often have several email chains being passed around trying to prove innocence. Our department makes sure to get everything in writing so that in the future, we have protection from our own colleague. But even then, the company owner tells us “While you do have approval from me in writing, ultimately it is your fault because you should have second guessed me.” This is all a big waste of time and it’s toxic to me and my co-workers.

    Since this culture is coming from the very top (company owner) and being passed down, I’m not sure there is anything I can do to change their attitude – I did make sure to mention in my review that our work place is very negative and I was working on doing my best to be positive to see the change I wish to see in the work place. So the higher ups are aware I have these feelings, but do not seem to think there is a problem. Whenever this blame game starts to play, I keep my head down and try to stay out of it – I just try to hold my tongue, allowing others to blame me and not addressing their accusations. What do you do in these situations? Fight or flight?

    1. Jaime L.*

      Because it’s coming from the very top, I’m not sure this is something you can solve company-wide. If it’s too frustrating to work with, you may need to start looking for other employment.

      Blame is very reactionary and not proactive. When you are directly involved in the situation, and blame starts getting tossed around, try bringing it back to a possible solution. When the blame game starts getting tossed around, you might try saying something like “Now that X has occurred, what should we do to solve this moving forward?” If you have a possible solution it might be even better to say “Now that X has occurred, what should we do to solve this moving forward? What are your thoughts on doing Y?” I find that if you toss an idea out there, even if it’s not the best idea, it gets the ball rolling. People start giving their own feedback and their own ideas.

      If it’s a superior or the company owner who is asking point-blank “Who is at fault here?” I would probably personally say “I’m not sure. Is there anything I can do to help resolve this situation?” If they want to return to the blame or focus back on it, unfortunately there’s not much you can do at that point.

      Again, if this is something coming from the owner, I’m not sure you will be able to change it for everyone across the board. You might just be able to mitigate or reflect, and you need to decide if that’s the case, will you truly be content at this company.

      1. Blame Culture*

        This is excellent language to use, thank you very much for your advice. As I said I always just try to keep my head down and take the lashing when I or my department is being blamed, but I will start posing these questions instead. Thank you!

    2. Jamie*

      I hate to say this, but I’ve worked at a place like that and if it’s top down your only option is flight.

      And I am with you, it’s toxic.

      I don’t expect people to be perfect – but in a culture where it’s not safe to admit an error and work on fixing it everyone is clenched all the time locked in a “anyone under the bus but me” mindset.

      My philosophy is shared with tptb where I work – in fact when I said it in the interview it was one of the things that they really liked.

      If nothing is ever your fault, I’ll assume everything is your fault until proven otherwise. Obviously it’s hyperbole but the truth is if you never admit to making an error I’m not giving you the benefit of the doubt. But when you own your mistakes and talk to me – because transparency can save me HOURS of troubleshooting, my default will be to believe you when you say it wasn’t you.

      I own mine to whomever is affected – I will also fix them – no big deal.

      When someone new comes in I can tell when they came from the blame culture and do my best to explain how it works here. Because doing that here will get you way more crap than any mistake ever could – that bus doesn’t run here.

      1. Blame Culture*

        Thank you for your comments – “anyone under the bus but me” mindset – is definitely what happens several times a week at our office. I am actively seeking a new job, but I want it to be the right fit – I don’t want to move from one nasty environment to the next, and I need my paycheck to survive at this point.

        I like this: “But when you own your mistakes and talk to me – because transparency can save me HOURS of troubleshooting, my default will be to believe you when you say it wasn’t you.”

        1. AVP*

          Oh, that is so true – when people are worried about hiding their mistakes and covering things up, it takes so much longer to get to the bottom of anything, and nothing gets fixed. Transparency now!

  119. Seeking A New Job*

    I applied for a job back in December and never heard back from anyone at the company. The job listing disappeared from the website in February so I assumed it had been filled. In March, it re-appeared and has been up ever since. What could be some possible reasons for this job listing to be up for so long? I know that the page is being updated frequently because I see other job listings come and go, but this one has remained constant. It’s been 4 months.

    1. Jaime L.*

      I would let it go and continue to send out applications elsewhere. If this is a dream job, you might follow up by email to whatever email was given out stating that you applied in December, noticed it was reposted, and if the position is open again, you’d like to be reconsidered. Then include your cover letter/resume for reference. After that though, put it out of your mind and continue to send out job applications elsewhere. You’ll drive yourself crazy getting caught up in the “what does this mean” employment analytics game.

    2. Befuddled Squirrel*

      I work for a company that does this. They do it because their criteria for candidates goes well beyond the posted description. For some positions, the strategy is to leave the position open for a while so they have a large candidate pool to choose from. Usually, they’re looking for people who not only meet the basic requirements but also look like a cultural fit, would add diversity to the team, and so on.

  120. Going Incognito*

    A new employee we recently hired quit after the first week. I knew from the moment I met them that they wouldn’t last (although even I didn’t expect them to cut and run that quickly – the previous person lasted 6 months, and the one before that, a year). This is probably one of the most challenging roles in our organization, and based on what I’ve observed with the last three hires, I believe management is not willing to be honest about that and to ask tough questions to find out how the applicants would really hold up under pressure.

    It’s not my place, unfortunately, to point out the flaws in their hiring practices. All I can do is SMH and resist the urge to start a “how long will this one last” pool.

  121. Christine*

    How do I negotiate salary on a job transfer, when I’ve earned but haven’t received a pay increase in my current role? Or should that not be a factor at all?

    I’ve turned in a stellar performance so far this year. My old manager left, I took on some of her responsibilities, and the new manager hired to replace her doesn’t have the same skill set, so I’ve kept the additional work I took on. I’ve also done extensive amounts of (exempt, unpaid) overtime on peer-level work to help us recover from an ugly rash of turnover, and I’ve done a ton of training work with the new hires to bring them up to speed. I’ve been continually working 60-80 hour weeks to accomplish this. I’ve gotten repeated glowing feedback from my director for everything I’ve been doing, and he has agreed that we need to discuss a pay adjustment at my midyear review.

    With my director’s encouragement, I applied for a transfer to a job that will get me some broader experience that I need to advance. I know I’m the lead candidate for that role, and I think they’re going to make me an offer next week. On similar transfers in the past, I was offered a smaller increase than what I’d like to negotiate this time. The new job has the same pay scale as my current role. I don’t want to give up the leverage I have for a pay increase in my current role, but this is a great opportunity to move my career along and I can’t let it pass me by, either.

  122. Ellie*

    so this person called me back yesterday for a job and was like “please call me back asap” in their voicemail… unfortunately I did not pick up the phone for their call… I have tried calling them 10 times so far today and nothing… sigh… I hope they are just out of the office and not no longer interested?!

    1. Jaime L.*

      Wait to call again until they call you back. If you miss someone’s call, call them back when convenient. If they don’t answer, leave one voicemail and be done with it. If you really want to and have an email address for them, you can follow up with an email like “I’m following up regarding my voicemail. Sorry I missed your call. I’m available by phone or email for you to reach back.”

      Calling 10 times is a tad excessive, especially in the days of Caller ID. In this sense, think of job hunting like dating. You don’t want to accidentally come off as obsessive or desperate. I know job hunting can be tough and at times discouraging. If this particular person does not call back or is no longer interested, please don’t take it personally. Just keep applying and keep your chin up! Good luck!

    2. Ruffingit*

      Put the phone down. 10 times is way too much. One call with a message left for the person is enough.

    3. Chloe Silverado*

      This has happened to me before. It’s very disappointing! It’s certainly possible that she can still call you back – maybe she’s out of the office today or was in meetings all morning – but at this point I would put it out of your mind. If this happens in the future, I would recommend only calling back once or twice at the most (and spaced out – maybe once in the morning and once in the afternoon, max) and then mentally move on. I will say that the two companies this happened with turned out to have less than stellar reputations when I did further research, so it was probably for the best. If a company decides not to hire you because you couldn’t return their phone call immediately, you’re most likely better off.

    4. Tzippy*

      Something similar has happened to me before, only I called once and left a message, and then they never called me back. So much for wanting me to call ASAP! I called about an hour and a half after they called me. I understand the temptation to call back 10 times though!

  123. Mints*

    Can I rant for a minute–
    I do expenses for the department, and sometimes I’m given a meal receipt that’s not obvious what it’s supposed to be processed for. The categories are pretty basic things like “meal during travel” ” client meeting ” “office supplies” etc. Sometimes I ask what category to submit an expense for and get gibberish answers like “off line synergy unicorn department.” I’m like okay? That’s not an answer. Was a client there? Were you traveling? That’s all I need. I don’t actually need your dumb justifications for watching the world cup during a $200 lunch. Your manager can yell at you if it was inappropriate. It has nothing to do with me

    I need a new job

    1. Jamie*

      Been there – for different tasks – but same stupid problem.

      The only way to do it is to toss it back when you don’t get the info you need to process. If someone requests and expensive computerized chocolate tea pot from me without a reason I don’t chase them down to help them help me better serve them.

      I email back the bullet points of the info I need – period. If they want it they will give me something I can work with.

      Communicate to them clearly what information needs to be submitted with these and put it in a document. Every time it comes to you incomplete shoot them an email saying it’s incomplete and you’ll process when you have all the information and attach your document.

      Save your typing and breath.

      But the aggravation – it’s real – you aren’t a mind reader.

    2. BRR*

      Do people know the different categories? Could you make a list from them to choose from?

    3. Cassie*

      Make a form with check boxes so that they can just check off the applicable category. Try to make people use the form if you can. You might still have to do the detective work for the higher ups but at least some people will / should use the form and save you some frustration.

  124. Anonymous for this purpose*

    What do you when you realize you’re just not a good fit for your job?

    I’ve been in a new job nearly a year, and while it wasn’t what I was sold on initially, it’s become clear as the year has progressed that this is just not a good fit for me and my skills.

    I’m grateful for the knowledge and hopefully it will help me when I get back on track, but how do I leverage this to my advantage? I know sticking it out a year makes a difference, and I’m almost there, but how do I help keep myself from getting stuck in a similar position, since it seems so many people focus on titles when hiring for administrative support positions?

    I’m doing heavy AP, which was not something I was ever interested in, and now I understand why. I know someone else could do this job so much better than me, and while I’m drowning in paper and work, I want to figure out how to spin this as a learning opportunity and get back on track with more purely administrative work.

    Also, how do you tactfully say “the job was presented to me as X, but fairly quickly turned out to by Y and Z, neither of which would be something I would have accepted if presented that way.”

    1. LQ*

      Do you think there is a chance for your current job to change to focus more on X?

      If there isn’t then I think that just focusing on your excitement about doing X will help at future job interviews.

    2. Anon*

      I’m in the same situation. I can’t offer much advice, but I can commiserate. For me, it’s not just that the job isn’t what I expected. It’s my whole career path that isn’t a good fit for me. I’m volunteering in order to gain experience in areas that interest me more an I’m planning a career transition. But it’s really hard to keep showing up and feigning enthusiasm for something that’s really not for me.

  125. Cruciatus*

    I can’t decide if it’s better to stay put and build up more time at my current company (over 3 years total, 1.5 in my current position) or try for a new position that’s another administrative assistant position but pays more, has just as good if not better benefits (county job). I’ve been trying to get into non-AA university jobs but haven’t had a single bite…ever. Being an AA is OK, but eventually I’d like out. So in short, A) stay put at ho hum job and hope staying longer looks better for the hopefully not distant future employer or B) go to another job I might not love, but pays more, gives me more experience for what will be be the more distant future.

    1. Jaime L.*

      What sort of AA position do you have? Are you AA to one person or one department? If you want to move up from AA, try looking for jobs where you are admin to a department–think development admin, marketing admin, finance admin rather than CEO admin. In departments, as associates or coordinators leave, it opens up positions for you to move up in that role. If it’s for a person, like executive asst to CEO, there no real place to move up from that because there’s no middle ground.

      If you are not currently a departmental admin, I would look for those types of jobs. This will also give you more experience to move into non-AA university jobs. Good luck!

      1. Cruciatus*

        I work for a medical school as the sole administrative assistant for a certain medical pathway/department. I report to 1 person but I technically work for all the students in the pathway (if that makes sense). I put together their exams, schedules, evaluation reports, etc. If they need something, it probably came from me. The only real movement in my current position would be to become an AA for the largest pathway at the school (and not sure I want that job! And no one knows when that woman will retire anyway). The other job would be an AA for the county executive (ooh!) I think ultimately I’d like to be in a university setting (more than I am now. It’s a college but it’s a small 1 building college). But would leaving this job make it harder to get a university job later. I have no idea! So that’s the kind of thing I’m running into.

        1. Anx*

          May I ask how you ended up in that position?

          I worked in student services in undergrad and loved it. When I couldn’t get an AA job I went back to school for a bit to try other fields, but I still haven’t given up on trying to break into admin.

          Do you think it’s necessary to get degree in administrative work?

          1. Cruciatus*

            I started in the school’s library working crap hours (non-librarian position). 20+ months later my current position opened due to retirement. I went for it and got it. I have a Masters in sociology and no administrative work experience.

            So it’s definitely possible to get jobs with that degree. In fact, most of the AAs I work with are college educated (all of us various ages) and have no specific administrative work degrees. The position did request at least an associate’s degree and some Microsoft Word/Excel experience, but that’s it. It might be different in different companies/parts of the country.

            Have you looked into trying to work for your alma mater? I live in a city with many colleges and universities and I know by frequent rejection experience that they love to hire alumni (I didn’t go to school around here).

            1. Anx*

              Thank you!

              I did! I had an interview a few years ago with them. But my alma mater was out of state.

    2. Marina*

      My rule of thumb is that it’s always worth applying. If you get an offer, then decide whether or not to take it. But I almost always at least learn something about myself and what I want from a job during the application process.

  126. LQ*

    I have a coworker who has been on a bit of an “I’m too busy” kick. She’s said in nearly every conversation lately that she’s really busy and doesn’t have time to do X thing that’s her job to do, or explain to me what she needs from me. It’s an odd thing to say since it’s really in every conversation. (Including one where she chose to go to a social thing at work, I was also an attendee, and she complained that she was to busy too be there, it was a very voluntary thing.) I know our manager would take things off her plate if my coworker asked (I’ve asked and he happily took a couple things off my plate when I explained what was going on clearly).

    Each time she’s said this I’ve said, “We all are but if you just tell me what you need we can get this done quickly.” or when it is just general commentary I just say, “We all are.”

    Any other suggestions to shut this down? I’m too busy to listen to her whine about how she’s too busy!

    1. Ruffingit*

      Makes me wonder if she’s saying she’s too busy to cover for the fact that she’s not actually that busy and is not doing her job. Sometimes people like to make a big show of how busy they are so people don’t give them more work and/or so people think they are busy when in fact, their work product would show something very different.

      1. LQ*

        I think for her a big part of it is that she’s just not very…good. Her product is definitely not solid. It takes her a long time to do even simple tasks so she is busy because making a teapot takes her 8 hours when it takes everyone else 4. She also wants to be a part of all the things because she thinks that makes her indispensable.

        I really just want her to go away and stop telling me how busy she is! If she’s busy then go back to work and stop wasting time talking to me.

    2. Jamie*

      When people continually complain about being too busy I ask them, sincerely, if they’ve spoken to their manager about restructuring or prioritizing their work load. If you genuinely have too much to do in the allotted time that’s the way to go.

      If they say no I ask if they want me to take a look at their task list and see if I can help with time management or efficiency.

      If they say no to both I just say okay – and then whenever they again say they are busy I rinse and repeat. They stop complaining to me.

      Because it absolutely can happen that someone has been overloaded and panicked about lack of time – maybe they don’t know they can talk to their manager and restructure, get help, move deadlines. But if they know this and do nothing – then they just want to complain so it’s not a factor for me.

      Just like if someone is too busy for something I need for a project, and it’s their job to do it, I offer to set up a meeting with them and their manager to go to bat for them and address this issue where they aren’t allowed the time to do the part of their job that I require.

      Exactly zero people have taken me up on that fine offer, but I do end up getting moved higher on the priority list.

      Weird.

      And just to be clear I’m not a harridan, everyone has days or feels overwhelmed or isn’t running on 100% and that’s okay – it’s the continual busy where I break this out.

      1. LQ*

        Suggesting she go to our boss is a great idea. I will definately try this next time.

        I’m fine with sometimes being frustrated or having a lot to do, I certainly do and voicing that complaint sometimes. But it has been in every single conversation and I’m somewhere between bored of hearing it and annoyed.

    3. Cassie*

      I have a coworker just like this (but she’s a manager – not just a regular coworker). It’s so annoying because she has the power to delegate to other staff (who ask for work to do because they have light workloads) but she won’t. She’s convinced everyone else is stupid and so she has to do it herself. At the same time, she always brags about how easy these tasks are or how she can accomplish them in her sleep.

      I don’t talk to her much but if she told me how busy she is, I wouldn’t even respond. I know some other people are like “oh, really?” but I don’t even want to engage at all.

  127. Jamie*

    I just have to tell someone and it’s work related.

    Without getting into the specifics of my company we manufacturing B2B – we don’t sell to consumers but our products are used in things that are sold to the consumer.

    Rumor has it we’re quoting a job which features a certain Japanese cartoon cat, which would mean there would be my favorite brand of adorableness all over the plant.

    My work buddy has the account – fingers cross the deal can be sealed because how freaking cool would that be?!

    (And yes, we have the ability to lock up customer supplied items to keep me from stealing.)

        1. Stephanie*

          I foresee you “accidentally” damaging things and asking if you can take them home.

    2. Malissa*

      I’m envisioning you dancing through the plant floor like a very happy three year old!
      May your dreams come true, and may there be extra swag for you!

    3. Mimmy*

      LOL Jamie, you would definitely be like a kid in a candy or toy store!! Crossing fingers it happens!

    4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      OMG! How exciting for you.

      We get to do that, also, although we have never done that pretty kitty. I get stupid excited when we are involved with a company or brand that is something I personally patronize or is just cool.

      The first time we did teapots for Nordstroms I was like AHA, some of the money is finally coming back to me. Bizarrely coolest ever – Blue Man Group. Because, Blue Man Group.

  128. Canadamber*

    So, I’m nervous about work.

    I recently got talked to. Twice. About talking to customers for too long and about too many random topics, and my manager said that she’d write me up if it happened again.

    Well, the last time I was at work, I caught myself doing it AGAIN. But I only really realized after my shift was over – eeeek!!! I remember a conversation in which I talked to some customer about weight issues. WHY DID I DO THAT WHYYY

    Anyway, I haven’t been at work all week since then, but now I work today, and I am absolutely terrified because I am 100% convinced that someone complained about me and that I will now officially get a write-up. It’s been ruining my enjoyment of my job, because I actually kinda like cashiering, you know? But, blargh! >__<;

    What do I do?! How do I stop feeling this way about work? I just want to quit and find another job in order to get away from these problems, but I know that that's the ONLY reason why, is because I'm terrified that I'll get written up, and for a teenager with not a whole lot of experience there are not too many jobs anyway!

    Just, blargh. Blargh. Everything is spiders. Blargh.

    1. Jamie*

      Deep breath – I am sure getting written up sucks and is stressful – but people come back from write ups all the time. Get one and never get another one.

      And if you’re being written up you’re not being fired – so keep that in mind.

      And it’s good that you’re working on what you need to work on even though you slipped. I’ve been annoyed about 1,997,465 times by cashiers or wait staff small talking me, or sometimes even inappropriate stuff, and I’ve complained exactly once.

      And it wasn’t even about me – it was the way the cashier was berating and humiliating the bagger and I couldn’t stand it. So I threatened to take my business elsewhere if they were so uncivil. I don’t know what happened after that, but I did get a $20 gift card so I’m hoping she got in trouble for costing them that.

      Anyway, most people don’t complain about stuff because unless it’s offended you to your soul it’s not worth the trouble. Same way when you get home and see the tomatos in the package are all icky on the bottom. You throw them out and pick up more next time you go – you don’t dig out the receipt and head back to exchange them.

      I think most people are as lazy as I am. But just remember worst case scenario you are written up – like millions of people before you – and not fired. You learn and you improve.

    2. Vancouver Reader*

      Don’t stress out over something that hasn’t happened. Like Jamie said, it’s not the end of the world if you do get written up. This job is something to tie you over until the next bigger and better job.

      Remember that Eddie Murphy movie A Thousand Words? Just pretend you’re him. :)

  129. Cat Tales*

    Anyone see this article? http://legalinkmagazine.com/2014/06/the-importance-of-a-womans-image-in-the-workplace/

    I’ve read a number of these articles, telling women (esp. women lawyers from what I’ve seen) they can’t be taken seriously in the workplace because they don’t dress conservatively enough. (I’m not a lawyer, but I work at a large law firm and the dress code is the same for us all here.) Of course, how you dress does matter, and the legal field is often conservative, but do all of these suggestions need to be so [obnoxious | patronizing | soul-sucking | annoying | pick your adjective] ?

    I mean, this article doesn’t just say that your haircut and style should be professional, neat and tidy, etc, he says it is “a subtle indication of your integrity.” Integrity, really? I have less integrity if it is humid out? And “excessively long hair says to clients that you are inexperienced and liable to forget important details of their case.” Oh please. So only young-uns have long hair, and what, all their brain power gets sucked into their hair?

    His remarks supposedly come from “decades of research.” If true, that really bothers me. Diversity is an important concept in law firms, and it is supposed to extend to allowing and embracing diversity in appearance.

    He ends his article saying that if you follow his advice, “you’ll probably find that you’re treated better, you will be challenged less often, and your work day will go smoother with everyone you meet.” I’m hoping that isn’t true, because I like to believe that in most workplaces, you’ll be treated well regardless of how conservatively you dress, or how long your hair is, or if your shoes are “too pointy”.

    /rant

    1. Jamie*

      I know my environment is more casual than most, but every time I read one of these articles I feel like I shouldn’t even be allowed to have a job.

      I’m sitting here in dress pants, some kind of shirt I don’t have the vocabulary to describe (pull over silky but not silk – I don’t know, it’s kind of stretchy and blue with green), black hello kitty Vans, long hair in a ponytail, and a black Liz Claiborne blazer because my office is freezing. I’ve worn this blazer so many times I need to retire it – I’m sure every one of my co-workers could pick it out of a lineup.

      I can dial it up when I have to, but I really like not having to have to.

      And sure some fields require a lot of polish – but I don’t like one person making absolute statements about what those standards are. There are too many variables for a collection of bullet points to work for everyone.

    2. OriginalYup*

      The author works for a company that charges $650 to tell you what colors are “most effective for your profession and for social interactions.” #notbuyinganyofit

    4. Clever Name*

      People like this is why part of my hair is dyed purple and why I wear turquoise skinny jeans to the office. I will not bow to your outdated brand of conformity and I don’t give a crap what you think of me.

  130. Kerr*

    How do you go about applying to jobs that require social media skills when you have the experience, but no online proof that you want to share?

    I do have experience using social media, but none of it is attached to my real name. Nothing embarrassing, I just prefer the anonymity. I’ve got the skills (think light skills – not major experience with statistics tracking, SEO, marketing, etc.), but no way to show it. Suggestions? Light blogging would be a part of some of the job descriptions I’m seeing.

    Wildcard: CA law prohibits employers from asking for social media usernames, but that’s a technicality. If a company requires certain skills, you have to prove that you have them somehow, right? I imagine the best way to do this would be to volunteer for an organization that needs social media help, but I haven’t done that, nor do I know of any organizations that do.

    1. Jamie*

      You already have the skills, start new accounts and put them to use in a name you can show them with work appropriate content.

    2. Chloe Silverado*

      Check out volunteermatch.com. I’ve seen a few remote opportunities for social media volunteers on that site. I did social at my previous job and was promised the opportunity to help develop the social media presence at my current organization, but then I was told when I started that it wasn’t part of my responsibilities. I found my volunteer opportunity through personal connections – a family member is involved in the organization, I noticed they had a really poor web presence and I asked if I could help them out. They were very appreciative and now I have some current social media work on my resume.

      1. Social Media*

        When companies are looking for experience with social media they do not usually mean that they are looking for someone that has participated on personal social media platforms.

        I think that your description of your skills, “light skills,” would fall short of what most companies are looking for in terms of what they consider experience. That being said there are entry level positions that would get you that experience and be a paid gig.

        Look for things like Social Media Coordinator or Community Coordinator. If the position does not look to train you to understand SEO, growth metrics, engagement metrics, and social marketing then look for something else as those are the skills that you will need to land a better job in the social media sphere. Your milage may vary, but this is what I have seen where I work.

        Oh, another option is one of those mini MBA programs that are out there, I have heard good things about some, there are many that are under $4,000.00 that will earn you a certificate showing that you have been trained in the latest social media best practices. It is money out of pocket, but something to consider, especially if you find an entry level job at a company that offers tuition reimbursement.

        1. Kerr*

          Thanks to all for the suggestions! To clarify, I’m not really interested in a dedicated social media position, but some of the administrative jobs I’m looking at want someone who can also handle social media. I get the impression that they want someone who’s reasonably competent, but they’re not looking for a marketing specialist. I guess I’m looking at a way to show that I understand the sites and how to use them, without having to use my real name to create a new follower base. (I’d probably do that if I wanted to go into marketing as a career, but I don’t.)

          That may not be practical for these jobs, but I figured I’d ask around for ideas.

    3. Tzippy*

      I think they’re probably looking for experience managing social media channels on behalf of a company – which wouldn’t have any connection to your real name. They generally don’t care if it’s just done personally and don’t count that as experience. Is there a volunteer job board in your city? There’s one here and they often have social media jobs (that’s how I got my first one ! I also got some experience through internships

    4. Anx*

      I am so happy you posted this!

      I am not amazing with social media, because I avoid a lot of it on purpose. I cannot be the only one who is tired of company’s ads on FB? I cannot be the only person who would love a tech-based loyalty program, but doesn’t want to ‘check in’ anywhere. It feels so….contrived? I feel like I’m living in that scene of minority report with all the ads.

      That said, I’ve been part of a some awesome social media campaigns, mostly as a follower (not a coordinator). But even as a follower, I contributed shareable content (fanart, etc). I’m not an artist, but I can tap into the fandom’s markets for things.

      I do not do this on my real name and I don’t have a lot of followers. I PREFER a small group of followers and consider my ability to ‘lay low’ a real accomplishment.

      I have no idea how to saw “I helped my online friends get two more seasons and a fan convention” without sounding very weird. Also, one way I helped was by NOT setting up competing hashtags/ sources and deferring to others with smartphones so that efforts would be more concentrated.

    5. C Average*

      So, here’s the thing about social media. There’s high-level social media strategy, and there’s in-the-trenches social media engagement. Depending on the size of the organization, the two functions may be performed by the same person or team, or they may be split up. The bigger the organization, the more likely they are to be segmented.

      If you’re pursuing a media strategy role, you definitely need the statistics tracking, SEO, marketing, etc. If you’re wanting to be a front-line communicator on social media, you need to be able to demonstrate a background in being (for lack of a better phrase) an internet extrovert, someone who’s confident and well-spoken and engaging in the social spaces.

      Because social media is such an emerging field, honestly, a lot is going to depend on who’s interviewing you.

      I’ve found that established corporate leadership types really want you to be able to talk numbers of followers, platforms, tools, jargon, stuff that sounds official and impressive. This is because most of these leadership types have never actually worked in social media and they don’t understand what’s really important in a social media knowledge worker.

      Tools can be learned. Friendliness, patience, empathy, ability to stay on voice, ability to remain calm in a crisis, ability to read subtexts and nuances . . . these are the qualities that really matter in these roles, and they can’t be learned by most adults. You have them or you don’t.

      I was my company’s first social media specialist, back in 2007, and there WERE no tools or acronyms; social media as a career path was limited to twentysomething nobodies like me muddling through the best they could, learning by trial and error. Now I no longer work in social media, but I remain close to my company’s award-winning social media team (there are 50 of them now!) and have been on panels for social media specialist interviews.

      I have advocated for people with backgrounds in journalism, customer service, and communications, among other things, to be in these roles. If you are interviewing with someone like me and you can convince them that you’re articulate, kind, have good business judgment, have confidence but not a big ego, and possess a solid familiarity and affinity for the platforms we serve, they’ll give you a look.

      I have to admit I would have qualms about someone who was really hung up on being anonymous, though, I have to admit. We really like to hire people who are pretty enthusiastic users of social media, and the desire to remain anonymous feels a little . . . I don’t know . . . paranoid? fearful? Not saying you are either of these things, but it would read that way to me.

      1. Kerr*

        Thanks for all the info, it’s very helpful. I clarified what I’m looking for above, but basically, I’m looking at administrative jobs with a social media component, not exclusively social media/marketing jobs. A *lot* of jobs that involve admin work are increasingly asking for social media skills. (Described as such, which is not descriptive.) I suspect most of them aren’t looking for a marketing specialist, they just want somebody to “handle” their social media presence, keep their Facebook updated, respond to the occasional customer question, etc. I’m self-selecting out of companies that have a heavily personalized social media presence, regularly updated Instagram photos of their workplaces, “fun” startups, etc. Understandably, I think those companies would want the type of avid social media users you describe.

        Your last paragraph is just what I didn’t want to hear, but it’s good to know that it would probably be an issue. I’d have no problem dealing with the public with a company account, or working behind the scenes, but personal publicity isn’t my thing.

  131. Anon for this*

    I’m so furious. My husband was just let go after five months at his new job. They said they didn’t feel he was picking up on the job responsibilities as fast as they’d hoped (software programming – he’s entry level because he just got his degree in November 2012, and this was his first programming job).

    The thing is… this came totally out of the blue. His manager hadn’t said a word about poor performance. In fact, before today he thought he was doing a pretty good job and no one had ever told him otherwise. And they didn’t even give him a chance to improve… no PIP, no extra training, nothing.

    Maybe it’ll end up being a blessing in disguise but we’re both feeling pretty dejected right now.

    1. BRR*

      I’m really sorry. The same thing happened to me (different occupation). Not a single word about anything. I know it sucks but for me it was a blessing in disguise with how things are at my previous employer and the job I have now.

    2. Jamie*

      That really does suck. A firing should never be a surprise except in extenuating circumstances.

      1. Anon for this*

        Get this. He went to the acting HR guy to ask if there was anything he needed to do paperwork-wise before he left, and the HR guy didn’t know he’d been let go. They hadn’t bothered to tell him.

    3. Befuddled Squirrel*

      The world of software engineering can be ruthless. Hirings and firings can happen at a fast pace. This is not unusual, and the good side of that is that a lot of engineers have been through it at some point. His career can recover. Engineers are in high demand and will probably continue to be for the foreseeable future.

      1. Anon for this*

        Problem is that it’s so difficult to find anything entry-level when it comes to software engineering. All the postings we’ve seen so far require at least two years of experience (but 5-8 seems to be typical). He can’t get a job without experience but he can’t get experience without a job — it’s a Catch-22.

  132. Ellie*

    I have a really awesome interview coming up in a few weeks. It’s an interview at a local college, I’d be working on their website as their web content person. It’s a panel interview with so many important people — the college webmaster, the provost of the college, alum director, faculty members, eeek! I am so nervous… but trying to convince myself they really do feel I am qualified to be there!

    Anybody here work in higher ed or web? What questions should I expect? What questions should I ask (I have already tried the Magic Question but its a new position so…)

    1. Anon for now*

      That’s great Ellie! I actually had a phone interview for just this type of job a week or so ago, and it went well and they called me back for my second interview. (I told this story on the open thread last week, actually. I ended up declining because one of the job tasks that they told me about during the interview, but was not in the job description, was to serve as the adviser for the weekly student paper, and it was a dealbreaker for me.)

      I got a good response by asking the question “What would you consider the difference between an employee who was good at this position, and an employee who is great at this position?”

      Also, try to ask and see if there are other job duties not listed in the ad, if they don’t volunteer the info.

      During the first interview they wanted to know things like what content management systems I was familiar with. You don’t need to have worked on the exact one they use, but if you can name two or three content management systems you have used, and talk about how each one has its own quirks and that you feel confident you’ll be able to pick theirs up fairly quickly. The head of web services sat in on my interview and I was able to ask him things like “What content management system does the school use” and “So all the school sites are on a single system and not spread out among several?”

      My other suggestion would be to study up on the history of the school, and see what they’ve been up to in the news, so you can talk about it in the interview. As web content manager you probably be posting those types of news updates to the site.

  133. Office Mercenary*

    The good news: I’ve been accepted to graduate school and can defer for a year while I apply for fellowships. The bad news: now I’m trying to job hunt for a position for just over a year and everywhere I’m applying (understandably) says they want someone for at least a couple years. I don’t want to lie to get a foot in the door and then leave them with the task of hiring and training someone new!

    I’ve been applying for a lot of administrative positions partly because it might be easier to replace me when I leave, but interviewers keep telling me I’m overqualified. Should I leave things off of my resume? I had to take aptitude and personality tests for my last interview and they concluded I was ‘too smart’ for the position. At this point I’m desperate enough to consider dumbing things down the next time around.

    1) Am I applying to the wrong sorts of jobs?
    2) When should I tell potential employers about my grad school plans? How much should I tell them?

    1. Anx*

      This sounds tricky.

      How can an aptitude test tell you if you’re too smart for a job? I have taken those online assessment ones (and don’t know if I’ve ever ‘passed’ one) but not an aptitude test. That sounds so scary! So you have to pass but not pass too much?

      1. Office Mercenary*

        I’ve never taken an IQ test but it was very similar to the Mensa game for iPhone. There were 50 multiple choice questions, mostly about pattern recognition and logic problems, and timed so that most people don’t finish all of them. I was frustrated because the javascript was slow and I only finished about 80%, but when I asked if I could retake it they said no because my score was already “outstanding.” In addition, my personality test basically pegged me as extremely analytical and data-oriented–partially true–so they were concerned that I’d be bored as an executive assistant, but they really liked me otherwise.

        I’ve run into this in a lot of job applications: if I apply to something in my field, I don’t have enough experience, education or quantitative skills, but if I apply for administrative stuff, they worry I’ll leave as soon as I can. Hopefully getting a master’s degree will help me get more substantial work, but in the meantime, I might need to leave stuff off of my resume or something. Ironically, the irrelevant things that make me look overqualified are what tend to get me interviews in the first place because it piques curiosity. I don’t know what to do.

    2. Vancouver Reader*

      All companies want good people to stay forever, but you have to do what’s best for you. I think if you gave a company your all for a year and the moved on, they should be grateful for that year.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Staying for a year in a job that makes it clear they want someone to stay for longer than that (which is very reasonable of them), and especially leaving for grad school (where it will be clear you knew for a long time beforehand and that you were disingenuous with them), is in my opinion a crappy thing to do.

          In many jobs, it takes 6-12 months to be fully trained and start really earning your salary.

          I’d be pissed if someone did this, and it would change my opinion of their integrity.

  134. AGirlCalledFriday*

    This is a 2 part question.

    1. This is my first year as an independent contractor and I just did my taxes. Insane! I’m working at a startup that pays me….decently well, or so I thought until I completed my taxes. I’m just wondering if anyone has any tips.
    2. I have a masters in education, k-9. Of course, it’s difficult to get a teaching job and, while I love teaching, I think everyone pretty much gets that it’s an almost thankless job with pretty bad pay. I’m looking for a new career to transition to, so if you know of any teachers who have transitioned to something else, I’d be grateful for any ideas. Currently I’m writing curriculum, and I’m bored bored bored bored bored!

    1. AVP*

      Sorry, independent contractors are almost always surprised (in a bad way) the first tax season. Did you do your taxes yourself? If you owe a lot, it’s nearly always helpful to go to a professional who can try to find you some savings.

      In the future, quarterly estimates are your best friend.

    2. Charter Schools*

      1. Get an accountant. It is a solid investment if you are an independent contractor for the first time in your career. There are many tax breaks that you are eligible for as someone that is Self Employed and they are a bit tricky to navigate as each situation is unique. That said, once you learn how to do it from a professional you may be able to handle it on your own the next year. File quarterly and keep record of any expenses that you incur while on the job.
      2. Have you looked into Charter Schools? They pay may or may not be better, but they offer more room for creativity thus eliminating some of your boredom.

      1. AGirlCalledFriday*

        Thanks! I am filing quarterly, and even so I can’t believe how much I’m expected to pay in taxes. It’s about a fourth of what I am earning! For someone who’s single, I just am unsure how I can afford to live off of the remainder.

        Charter schools aren’t great. It really depends on the school, but you still end up working long hours for worse pay than you can get in a public school. One thing I do enjoy about this job is that when I come home, I’m home and I don’t have to work in the afternoons or weekends.

        1. Ruffingit*

          I’ve done independent contracting as well and truth is you can rarely afford to live off the remainder. I’ve almost always had either two jobs when I did it or one that was paying extraordinarily well. The taxes are killer. As others have said though, get an accountant. Immediately. Today. Because they are awesome at helping you figure out things to write off and how to be in the best position tax wise. It’s worth the money.

    3. Ellie*

      – I also did taxes for the first time this year and they were about 25% of my wages. My mind was blown. I thought independent contractors had less taxes taken away than employees?

      – I also have my master’s in education… I’ve been writing curriculum (which I love, actually), doing freelance reporting for local newspapers, web design… anything that makes use of my skills. Figure out what you are good at and sell that as a skill to people

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        So, in VERY broad strokes…from the IRS’s POV, each taxpayer owes what they owe against their income, and they don’t care where the $ comes from. In traditional employment, the employer pays half, and the employee pays the other half through automatic withholding from their paycheck. For IC’s, little (or no) $ is withheld AND the the company doesn’t have to split the bill – the IC is on the hook for the entirety of their income tax bill. This is one reason IC’s typically get paid more than straight employees – because having half your income taxes paid for by your employer is essentially a perk, albeit a legally mandated one.

        *I am not a tax or HR expert, this is just my understanding from personal experience.

      2. Befuddled Squirrel*

        FWIW, I make an average salary for my area and my taxes are about 33% of my income. I’m not an independent contractor. I’m an actual employee. So it could be worse. Be glad you don’t live in a state with higher taxes!

      3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        No, 1099’s pay more. They pay both the employee and employer side of taxes, as well as having to pay in full of their own insurance and in full for any retirement savings . (I am pretty sure that 1099’s don’t have any unemployment, disability or worker’s comp insurance, although that’s probably different per state. If they do, the 1099’s are paying for their own.)

        Having employees is expensive. In a 1099, all of the expense gets transferred off the business and to the individual who is working.

  135. Cath in Canada*

    I came back to the office today after using vacation time to watch the England game yesterday, and found that my Scottish colleague has “decorated” the sad little England flag on my desk with sarcastic comments. Is this legal?

    (The international nature of my workplace is one of my favourite things about it, especially during international sporting events! We were just watching part of the France-Switzerland game in the lunchroom, with people from both countries present. So much fun!)

  136. Sherry*

    I am bored out of my mind!

    When I first started my job it was a mess. It was obvious that the person before me didn’t have a clue what they were doing. It has been hard work but very rewarding. I have not only cleaned up my job, but have created procedures for numerous tasks that effect my job. I am rewarded regularly with 4 figure bonuses quarterly, raises, time off, etc. I love working for this company. But……

    I have asked my supervisor for more tasks. She acknowledges me but always puts it off. I can’t sit here for hours every day with nothing to do.

    How do you think I should handle this?

    1. Vancouver Reader*

      Do you have jobs that you’d like to take on that aren’t currently part of your job duties? Can you do an overview of a project you’d like to take on and present it to your supervisor for approval?

    2. Graciosa*

      I’m betting your supervisor has not had enough mental breathing space to sit down and figure out something else for you to do. Help her out with some suggestions. Take the time you’re spending sitting there to come up with some major improvement ideas – if you were running your department, what would you do?

      Some thought starters: What are your department’s key objectives, and how could you meet them better / faster / more easily / more consistently? What processes could be eliminated? What needs to be added? What regular tasks could or should be automated? How can you make it easier to find key information? Are there measurements or other indicators that would show how your department is performing in close to real time, so that problems can be spotted early on? What problems recur, and what are their root causes? How can you change the regular operating system in the department to head them off?

      A couple examples. A new owner just purchased a bagel place I visit regularly, and suddenly seems to be regularly running out of bagels I want to buy pretty early in the day. Where is the process failing? No ingredients available? No one monitoring the supply? No one assigned to make more? I don’t know the answer, but if the owner doesn’t figure it out, it will have a permanent impact on the business in the form of regularly reduced sales. A person who tracks down the issue and presents a plan to fix it would really be helping the owner out (although I’m not sure yet if this owner is smart enough to realize that).

      Another example – our department used to get regular questions from another team we work with about status items. Now we have a weekly meeting to review everything at once instead of having several people regularly interrupted to track down individual requests. This is a simple thing (and I hate more meetings on principle) but it’s creating efficiencies and improving a key relationship.

      Final example – we are regularly asked a question that we can’t answer without visiting two separate sites to look up distinct pieces of information. We’re consolidating these on one site and linking them (you look up item A to find answer B, and then look up B elsewhere to find C) to save time. Again, this seems like a tiny, obvious thing – but no one had done it.

      People who think this way are incredibly valuable – and from reading your comments about creating processes where they didn’t exist, you’re one of them. Find ways to keep doing this. Focus first on your own department, and give your manager a range of ideas for her to consider. A selection will allow her to identify some things that could work (she should have insight or information that may not be available to you, so don’t feel bad if you’re not immediately aligned on the best choice) and will fit with her objectives for the team. Making your manager look good is usually good for your career.

      Another option (if you really have exhausted possibilities that will help your manager directly) would be to start exploring ways you can work with other key departments related to yours. Offering great employees for stretch assignments that benefit other teams not only makes your manager look good, it helps build her relationship capital in the business. Again, this has to be done well (no, I do not need you to send me someone with no experience doing my team’s work to “help” expedite your favorite project at the expense of all others) but it’s fantastic when done properly.

      I’m assuming that your manager has been putting you off because she is busy or not naturally inclined to think this way, but still basically a decent manager. If that’s the case, she should be open to suggestions that will improve the department and make her look good. If that’s not the case (assuming you really have targeted your suggestions to align with her objectives), you may need to start thinking about where you can go to find work that is more challenging.

      Good luck.

  137. unemplaylist*

    Hey, PuppyKat, hope you’re seeing this cuz today I posted your suggestion to put “Sittin’ on the Dock of the Bay” on my Unemplaylist: The Job Seeker’s Soundtrack. The perfect song for the start of summer. Thanks for the suggestion! You can see it here. And like the page while you’re at it.
    https://www.facebook.com/unemplaylist

  138. Bringing a Handbag to an Interview*

    Hello,
    I am wondering if it is normal for women to bring handbags in with them for in-person interviews.

    However, I am only considering bringing it into the interview because of some advice I read online and I know that there is bad advice out there.

    Is it bad for a woman to bring in an handbag as an accessory when interviewing? I read that when interviewing for a creative industry position wearing statement jewelry or bringing in a bright bag can add some personality to a more formal outfit; is that bad advice?

    I am asking because I like to look at interviews as meetings, and I would never bring my handbag with me to an internal business meeting. Then again, I may not wear a suit every day either (the attire is more business casual than business)

    To handbag or not to handbag?

    1. Marina*

      This is kind of puzzling to me, mostly because I don’t know where I’d put my wallet and car keys if not in a handbag. For me at least it’s a functional accessory rather than a purely aesthetic accessory.

      1. Anonsie*

        Same. And people say “tuck it into a padfolio” but I don’t know what type of folio these people have found that could fit that.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      I wouldn’t blink at a woman bringing in a handbag. Most women carry them. It’s normal and accepted. I’m not sure why people would advise not to bring one. For me, personally, it would feel weird to leave it in the trunk of the car. And it’s not like it could be left with the reception area. That would be weird.

      1. Charter Schools*

        I think the larger question would be, is it alright to bring a brightly colored or designer bag even if I would not normally bring one of those to work.

        I have a small simple handbag that I use for day to day, but I have nicer handbags for conferences, lectures, etc.

        I thought that it was alright to use one of the statement bags, but after taking some bad career search advice years ago (I sent in a resume that had too many images and was just… awful) I thought it was worth a double check!

        1. The Other Dawn*

          I would say if it’s bold and matches your outfit and it’s not totally “out there,” then it’s fine. Or a neutral color that goings with anything.

    3. Stephanie*

      My suit pants don’t have pockets and my suit jacket pockets can basically fit a tube of chapstick and like one key. So a handbag is more function than fashion for me. I think it’s common for women to carry purses, so I couldn’t imagine a reasonable interviewer holding that against someone. I didn’t have a neutral, conservative purse for a while, so I would go sans handbag sometimes.

      One interview, I did ditch the handbag and carried everything in my padfolio. It was a bit awkward as I tried to shove an iPhone in my not-thick padfolio and hoped my lipstick didn’t fall out my pocket. I was staying in a hotel adjacent to the office, so I could get away with carrying just my room key card.

    4. MaryMary*

      You say you wouldn’t bring your handbag to an internal meeting, but you would to an external meeting, right? I’d be careful about carrying an old, beat up bag, or something super casual (I’d even hesitate to bring something like a Vera Bradley, it doesn’t seem interview-professional to me). But a nice bag is fine! And I think a brightly colored bag for a creative field would be perfectly acceptable.

      1. Stephanie*

        I wouldn’t go too nice, however. I think bringing anything nicer than a Coach bag (or similar) to an interview might send the wrong message, unless you’re interviewing in high fashion.

      2. Ellie*

        I would totally bring a Vera bag to an interview. I carry Lilly Pulizter and Vineyard Vines bags. If somebody doesn’t like my bright pink bags then oh well! :)

    5. Graciosa*

      Would you carry your handbag to a meeting in another location if you were already an employee (assuming the level of the dress was close to interview level)? That’s your answer.

      I don’t carry my handbag around on the same campus, but I do take it with me if I have to travel to our HQ building at another site. This is perfectly normal and accepted in business. The VP who is the head of our function carries hers to other sites too, so I don’t think this is as big a deal as you fear it will be.

      The other reason I framed this as “what would you do as an employee” is that you need to present *yourself* at an interview, not someone else you think might make a better impression. A fashion maven with a great collection of statement handbags will fit into some cultures better than others. The same is true of her more traditional and less accessorized cousin.

      The person who shows up for the interview should be basically the same person who will show up for work every day if hired (although possibly dressed more formally on interview day) – otherwise, you and the company are going to have a harder time figuring out whether you’re well suited to each other, which is kind of the purpose of the interview.

      Ellie’s comment is perfect for just that reason – she is firmly committed to being herself. I strongly recommend that you avoid overthinking this and do the same.

      Good luck.

  139. K-Dog*

    I always wanted to know what OP stood for, i always know its the person who submitted the question but what does the “O and P” really mean?

    3. Jamie*

      I’ve known forever what it meant yet every time I see it I still think Ocean Pacific and picture those dorky shorts with pockets all the guys wore in the 80s? Corduroy shorts? How was that a big seller?

      2. Colette*

        That one doesn’t confuse me, but there’s another acronym people use here that I have to translate every topime, because it means something different to my brain.

  140. Student*

    I recently got a summer internship for a small company. Previous to this, I was interning for a multinational one. I’m looking for internships at big companies for the fall and don’t want to change the LinkedIn header to reflect my internship at this small company – for reasons that having a big name company on my LinkedIn header will have more impact than a small, unknown company. Employers I’ve applied for for Fall internships have been viewing my LinkedIn and I don’t want to change it to “Intern at Small Company”.

    But my new manager has been directly telling me to change my LinkedIn Header twice now. And she keeps on viewing my profile. I don’t want to seem I can’t take instructions but I have reasons as to why I don’t want to change it (mentioned above). I am having a hard time telling her why I can’t change it because it seems like she wants me to stay with the company after summer – but I don’t (I haven’t told her this yet). How can I go about hinting to her that I don’t want to change it without explaining why?

    I personally think she doesn’t have a say on what I do with my LinkedIn account.

    1. Jamie*

      Has she mentioned why she cares? This is an odd thing to care about for an intern.

      I wouldn’t try to figure out how to hint at it, though, hinting rarely gets the end result people want.

      You can politely and professionally have a conversation asking why this is an issue and explain as much or as little as you like about your reasons for not changing it.

      1. Student*

        No. She just kept telling me to update it. We’re a small team and I just created the company’s Linkedin page. I guess she thinks by me changing my header will increase exposure to the company.

        After my my manager viewed my profile for the 3rd time, I finally changed it – just like now. Around this time, my boss just came in from home and told me again that I haven’t changed it. But then I told her, I finally changed it and even showed this to her. I don’t know how to politely and professional have a conversation you suggested above. Thank you for your response, Jaime!

    2. BRR*

      I think you’re overthinking the impact of the header on your profile. Plus under your experience section, I am assuming you are listing your current internship. If I saw someone with their current employer as abc and the header as xyz, even if it says former intern at xyz, it looks not current. Also any company you are applying for will probably skip straight to your experience section.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      Point 1. If i were your current employer, even temporarily, I’d probably be irked that you were still promoting your last job, too. Especially if building the comapny’s LI presence is part of your new role.

      Point 2. That said, my LI header doesn’t mention my employer (past or present) at all.

      Point 3. I think you are overestimating the importance that anyone else is placing on seeing “former intern at Big Name Company” next to your name.

      1. Jamie*

        Yeah, come to think of it mine doesn’t have a company name ip either.

        But yes, seeing as the OP is responsible for the Linkedin page as part of work I can see why this is an issue. Glad you changed it – not the hill you want to die on since it’s work related. If you weren’t involved in the linkedin page it would be none of their business.

      2. Student*

        Hi everyone,

        Thanks for all your feedback. Just to clarify, I haven’t included my current internship in my experience section and I’m not exactly in-charge of increasing our LI presence. I just created their page but not in-charge of marketing for it.

  141. Jamie*

    Issuing an edict:

    I don’t know who decided that printers fall under the IT umbrella, but I’m reversing the ruling as of today.

    Printers are no longer the problem of IT. Give it to the office manager, maintenance, hire printer specialists, someone with an doctorate in printing – I don’t care – we’re not dealing with them anymore.

    And so shall it be.

    1. Mints*

      I’m pretty sure I’ve volunteered for this job in a previous open thread. My title can be “Technical hand holder.” I will hold you hand while I explain how to use all the features. Previous experience includes teaching my mom how to use a computer, from “this is how you turn it on and this is the internet,” and she’s now an occasional facebook and email user. I might consider getting a doctorate in printers too

    2. ArtsNerd*

      Printers fall under the marketing department at my office. It’s because the photocopier is in my office and so I have to deal with the incessant beeping myself, or it will promptly drive me into madness.

  142. Jamie*

    I may or may not have been under my desk and may or may not have whined to an empty office for the phone to ffs stop ringing (office is closed, it’s Friday – give it a rest people.)

    And I may or may not have thought I accidentally hung up on my boss when in reality I put him on hold on my phone instead of the system where the person he needed could pick up.

    Maybe.

    I need a DND Under my Desk button for my phone.

    But you guys should see how clean my desk is now – and how fancy my new UPS is. The light and screen are a cool blue – it’s like some fancy underwater disco beneath my desk.

    1. Vancouver Reader*

      If you’d had your favourite music blasting the whole time, none of this would’ve happened.

      Is under your desk the new happy place?

  143. A New Job At A Company I am Interviewing With on Monday!*

    I have an interview with a company on Monday, it is a pretty good fit, perhaps a bit below where I should be, but the recruiter has been clear that growth opportunities are abundant. I am excited about the interview, however today I noticed a new job posting for the same company that I think may be an even better fit, even if the experience they want is about one year off from what I currently have.

    While both jobs are dealing with the same product types they have different hiring managers, so the manager that I speak with on Monday will probably not think to himself, “You know, we should consider you for that job we just posted!”

    My question is: Do I contact the recruiter and let him know that I am also interested in this other position or would that look odd since I have the interview for the other original position on Monday…? Should I just apply online now and sync up with the recruiter later? Is there an option that I am not thinking about?

    1. Vancouver Reader*

      Doesn’t hurt to apply to second job since nothing is confirmed with first job.

      1. Applying for a new position right before an interview?*

        I do think that I would like to apply, but I am wondering if I should touch base with the recruiter first as a courtesy. I mean, should I apply via the site or should I speak to the recruiter and express my interest in that way, as he already has my resume and knows my skill set?

        The recruiter has not been very responsive or involved, but I feel as though it may be odd to send in a normal or cold application as I have been in contact with an internal recruiter for a few weeks. Perhaps I am overthinking?

        1. Vancouver Reader*

          If the recruiter isn’t good about responding, and the deadline for applying is looming, I would think apply first and then give him a head’s up of that’s what you’ve done.

  144. Add LinkedIn URL to Resume?*

    I know that it is old fashioned and silly now to say things like “references available upon request” at the end of a cover letter, but is it alright to put something like:

    “For more information please visit my profile on LinkedIn: http://www.link.link”

    I like that I have recommendation and project details on LinkedIn, but I do not want to put it on my resume. Is this a good compromise?

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      Ido think how you worded that sounds a little weird. But since I also want to steer people to my LI profile, I took my mailing address off my resume header and replaced it with my LI URL.

      1. Add LinkedIn URL to Resume?*

        I like this idea more; I will put the URL with my other contact information but remove the sentence. I didn’t like the sentence either, so I appreciate the feedback!

  145. AcademicAnon*

    Well I have a follow up to the firing the model average employee question I asked last week. The situation for that employee has gotten better, because now he’s not getting fired, but the situation for the company got worse as several very good employee turned in their resignations. However it’s the company’s own fault, as after they merged with my SO’s company, the yearly bonus and 401k matching went away, the insurance got much more expensive for less coverage, and the upper management doesn’t do anything else to retain people. Highly likely other good people will leave, but not the person who they were going to fire, because he’s dependable and not ambitious.

  146. mouseanony*

    I feel like I’m not good at my job and can’t really imagine a job I would excel at or enjoy. I don’t know what to do about this. I do believe/have been told/have showed via testing that I’m very smart (really feel uncomfortable typing that though), so I sort of don’t understand what’s missing. Maybe motivation or one predominant interest.

    Is this what your twenties is? Does anyone else feel this way?

    1. Anon*

      Yeah, I’d say an interest or “passion” that motivates you might be missing. Maybe you’re not being challenged and you’re bored. Maybe you’re being challenged and the challenge is boring. Maybe you have some skills to learn. Maybe it’s a bad fit somehow.

      Just a note on being smart – An IQ score doesn’t describe how you use your intelligence, like the the quality of your car doesn’t describe how well you drive it. There’s a lot more to whatever’s going on than being smart or dumb.

    2. Anon*

      I have the same problem. I’m interested in a lot of things, but none of them generate income. I have skills that people want to hire me for, but I find the work uninteresting. I’ve tried talking to two different career counselors about this and gotten nowhere. So I started volunteering, doing things I enjoy at nonprofits I want to support. I’m hoping this will eventually lead me to a more fulfilling career.

    3. jesicka309*

      Yes this was me 3 years ago! :) I picked up a course or two online because I felt like my brain was dying from lack of stimulation, and trial and error brought me to marketing. I found I loved the coursework, worked hard to get into that field, and feel like I’m actually in a job where my enthusiasm and drive is respected, instead of singling me out as an outsider.
      Doing a couple of short courses can definitely help you focus your career switching efforts and help you learn what you love, and what stimulates you. :)

  147. Ruffingit*

    If anyone is still reading, what is the best piece of job advice you’ve gotten from AAM?

    1. Stephanie*

      That I should be interviewing them just as much as they’re interviewing me. I graduated just at the start of the recession, so I definitely had this mindset of “OMG, yay! They gave me an interview!” and would trip over myself to be pleasing and telling the interviewer answers he wanted to hear.

    2. Hcat*

      After the interview, just keep moving on….after the rejection, keep looking ahead. And make every effort to never quit your old job without having a new job lined up.

      1. De Minimis*

        Mainly just given me a lot of good questions to ask and has allowed me to really get to a better headspace as far as interviewing.

    3. Ruffingit*

      The concept of mentally moving on is the best piece of advice, but right after that comes the fact that you don’t have to worry about the stupid crap like addressing the cover letter to a real person and following up on your application materials once you’ve sent them in.

    4. Anon*

      I get the most out of the comments. In general, just reading about the crazy stuff other people are dealing with puts my work problems into perspective.

      1. Anon*

        And Allison’s advice to react appropriately to red flags in the hiring process! If they do anything crazy, don’t go along with it; take it as a sign that you might not want to work for them.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Like others have said about moving on after applying and not address the HM by name. (Why was I so hung up on that?)

      When I first started reading here, I did not even know what site I was in, it was only because I clicked on links and repeatedly fell into this site by accident that I started paying attention.

      I stay because Alison has a knack for making sense out of what seems to nonsense. It’s a crazy world out there. People who insist on sticking to logic/ethics/sincerity- those are the people to listen to and work off of. So that is what “caught” me.

      1. jesicka309*

        Yes! I found here the same way – I kept googling “how to address your cover letter” and “workplace bullying” and “what to do if you’re bored at work” and “crying at work” and I kept coming back. One day (in my quest to overcome the bored at work problem) I went back to the beginning and read page by page until I had caught up on 6 years worth of posts! :)

  148. samaD*

    I had something I was going to ask, but in writing it out I kept thinking what people would say and I think I’ve got the answer….so I just wanted to say thank-you everyone! You were very helpful :)

  149. Fruitfly*

    Do I need to reply to recruiter emails who ask “who do I know that will be interested in XYZ position”?

    I occasionally received these types of emails from staffing firms that I have signed up with while I was job searching in the past. Now I am currently working, not job searching, and also don’t know anyone that would be interested in their open positions. I am thinking of ignoring the recruiter, what do you all think?

    1. MissRiss*

      I decided it was in my interest to make these types of scenarios an opportunity for my own growth – I get to practice building relationships in moments where I’m definitely not looking for something at the moment, but have the opportunity to make an impression even though I have no colleagues to offer up to them. I’d say take the opps to build a moment of repoire such that they remember you perhaps down the road – it feels great at the end of a conversation/email to know you made them like you that much more without having given them a lead. But you did give them the impression that you’re a connector for future. (‘I don’t have any colleagues who are looking at the moment that I know of, but I’ll certainly keep an eye out – tell me more about the great things your firm/client offers.)

    2. Kerr*

      Are they actually personalized to you specifically, or just an e-mail blast? I get those occasionally, from firms I’m currently working with, and just ignore them. Recommend someone if you can, but if not, I don’t think they expect a response.

  150. Anony*

    Quick question for anyone left reading these:

    I’m a seasonal worker in the government, and when my position comes to a close in the fall, I would like to continue working the same position in another location. There is one posted already. But… it is one number lower on the pay scale than what I am at now (with an obvious drop in pay). The idea in this field is to move around while waiting for permanent openings. Is it better to hold out for the same or better pay scale level than to take a job at a site I would like to work at? I’m not asking so much in terms of the dollar figures on the pay check. I’m asking more about the actual scale number (-05, -07, -09, etc.).

    PS Alison, if you are reading this, if no one answers my question tonight or tomorrow, may I post it on Sunday’s open thread? If I consider the position, it closes before next Friday’s open thread.

  151. De Minimis*

    It would depend on what employee status you have…I know sometimes it’s to a seasonal worker’s advantage to have a long stretch of employment even if it involves multiple appointments at varying rates of pay, because I think sometimes they could get a more permanent or at least more advantageous status after a certain period.

    I have a friend who works as a seasonal employee with a federal agency and he has gradually moved into better jobs each season, although I don’t believe he has ever gained a permanent position [don’t know if that’s even something he wants, though.]

  152. Anonyby*

    Okay, I have another question, this time on resume writing…

    I’ve been at my current job for 4.5 years, between two offices. But it’s all been part-time work. I don’t have anything else to show for that time period, between family issues and then life issues. For better or worse, that’s what my past is.

    Should I note on my resume that it was a part-time position? I just have “Receptionist” as the title. I know there was one interview I went on last year where it seemed like the person interviewing me was taken aback when she realized that I’d been working part-time. I don’t want to deceive anyone, but I don’t want to screw myself over any more than I already have. And what about when they ask you hours per week? For me that’s been all over the board. Some times I would be at 0 (due to spending the better part of a year floating-only), and then at other times I’ve worked a full week. There doesn’t seem to be a good average.

    1. Ruffingit*

      Interesting question. I’ve never noted part-time or full-time on my resume. I’ve just put the job there. No one has ever cared that it was PT or FT, they just cared about the skills I got there. I have noted if it was a contract job because that was the reason I was trying to leave the job after only a few months. I was working contract to pay the bills, but I was searching for FT work. So it made sense to note contract there. But I don’t see why anyone would care that it was FT or PT. I mean, I guess I could, but I would just put down the job, the time period you were there and if you’re doing some stupid automated system that asks for weekly hours, just put 20 so you can move past that screen (since some of them require you to put something in the field) and then explain if you are asked that it was work as needed.

  153. Felicia*

    I just saw a posting for a job called Administrative Wizard and Happiness Ninja. Although I don’t want to apply to a job with such a stupid title, I think it’s kind of awesome. What other weird job titles have people seen? And what does using both ninja and wizard in a job title say about the company?

    1. Befuddled Squirrel*

      That they’re trying to come across as a hip start-up tech company in order to attract that demographic.

    2. Esra*

      That the hours and benefits are going to be repellent, and you’re just supposed to roll with it because they’re so freaking cool, or something.

      It seems a lot more prevalent in start-up culture. I saw a design role pop up recently where your title would be “Community Member!” with an exclamation mark, I guess. Nope!

      1. Felicia*

        That’s what I thought! And a bit of googling seemed like that was the case, along with the mandatory group “fun”.

        Although being a wizard of a ninja might be fun, I don’t want that in a job for real. I’ve seen a lot of start up jobs of all kinds wiith lot! of! exclamation! points!

        1. Esra*

          Haha right? And it’s always for the worst things:

          We work hard, and we play hard! You’re passionate about design! Willing to work nights, weekends, sleep under your desk, anything to get the job done! You are a typography ninja! A layout wizard! You don’t complain about maybe illegal, uncompensated work hours!!!

    3. Tyler Durdan*

      I was recently interviewed by someone whose title was:

      Content Astronaut

      This was literally printed on his official company business card that he handed me. I didn’t really know what to make of it, but it was just one of many signs that the company was too “hip” for me (along with open floor plans, glass conference rooms, etc.)

  154. Befuddled Squirrel*

    Late to the party, but throwing this out there anyway. What’s everyone’s opinion of job titles on resumes – do you need to use your literal title or is a generic title just as good? What if the generic title is a more accurate description of your job than your official title?

    For example, if I’m a teapot maker and my title is Grand Unicorn of Teapots, would it be fair for me to put Teapot Maker on my resume?

    2. Felicia*

      I think use the title our company gave you and just make the points you put under it specific to the job. Though if you company called you Administrative Wizard and Happiness Ninja (which is a real title I posted above.) I might not put it on a resume because i’d worry it sounded stupid.

    3. Befuddled Squirrel*

      Thanks everyone! I’m currently using a slightly different title for a couple of older jobs, but it’s not an inflation. It’s just a clearer way of stating the same thing (i.e. Teapot Maker instead of Fabricator of Teapots). These are jobs where noone they called would remember what my exact title was.

      I’m going with everyone’s in-put and using official titles for current jobs, though. One of my current titles sounds a bit off-putting and I’m tempted to reword it, but I won’t give in to temptation!

  155. Payroll?*

    I’m looking at a university administrative assistant job for a specific department and they prefer someone with experience in payroll and accounting. Obviously I don’t have that since I’m asking–what exactly would this involve?

    Where I currently work there is a woman who does payroll for those of us who work near her, faculty and staff. But mostly she seems to just collect the time cards. I think she keeps track of hours for a few faculty members, but then she just sends the cards up to the actual payroll people. I mean, I could handle that…but can anyone give me a better handle on what might actually be involved with the university? There are other duties as well, it’s not a payroll only position.

    1. Graciosa*

      I can’t speak to anything university-specific, but I would be looking for someone who can do a lot more than collect time cards. Experience in payroll and accounting should include knowing how to apply the appropriate rules to time cards (overtime, vacation pay, comp time, etc.) in ways that are consistent with all applicable laws and regulations (there are more than you think) plus the university’s policy. It would also include knowing how to maintain the accounting records (“keep the books”) to accurately reflect these items, ensure that all required payments are made to the appropriate entities (taxes don’t just come out of paychecks, the money has to actually go to the taxing entity regularly and on time), know how to make retroactive adjustments and journal entries when needed, and do all this in accordance with GAAP. At the end of the year, there are even more activities related to closing the books, preparing for audit, etc. – and if you want your W-2 or 1099 (and whoever does the books better understand when each is appropriate) someone needs to prepare these and submit them to not only individuals but also all the interested taxing authorities.

      That was kind of the minimum. In many systems, payroll also handles other aspects of onboarding, such as verifying eligibility to work, setting up direct deposits for new employees, processing payroll deductions and benefit selections, and enrolling employees with the appropriate benefit providers. These, however, depend a bit on the job scope.

      If the stuff in the first paragraph was not at least familiar, you don’t have this experience.

      1. C Average*

        +1

        Right out of college I took an admin job that included payroll. I found that aspect of the job really, really hard. The rules were confusing, and knowing when to apply which rule seemed to be as much art as science. I didn’t get much training from my predecessor, and it seemed I was always screwing things up. It was the only job I’ve ever had that was both boring and confusing. I was actually relieved when they asked me to resign.

        If you don’t know payroll, get some training and exposure to it before you take it on in a professional capacity.

  156. Killer Commute*

    I think I already know the answer to this, but I’m curious: is stating you can’t afford the commute one day ever an acceptable reason to request working from home?

    Back story: I drive almost 100 miles and spend $6.50 every day I come into the office. I work in marketing. My company is expanding and, consequently, more and more people are being crammed into an open office floor plan. I once worked in an area that was relatively quiet; now, I am shoved into a space with people who are extremely noisy. I’m required to turn out a ton of content each day in a short amount of time: as a result, I need a quiet workspace. As a result, I working from home as I find I am much more productive do to less distractions. Also, prior to accepting this job, worked from home as a social media analyst for a “virtual company” and have demonstrated multiple times that I can work from home.

    I can usually get about 8 trips on a tank of gas; however, I live in South Florida and the weather is just awful: it’s stormy, visibility is low, cars are slower than usual, there are more accidents, etc. and, as a result, it’s absolutely killing my mileage (and I drive a Honda Civic!). Instead of filling up every 4 days, I’m filling up ever 3 days and I honestly don’t have room in my budget to add an additional fill-ups each week. I am actively looking for another job (believe me, if I had known the full impact this commute would have on my budget and my mental health, I never would have taken on the position).

    Are these reasonable points to bring up when asking my manager if it would be possible to telecommute 1-2 days a week while the weather is so awful?

    1. CoffeeLover*

      I don’t think you should really throw in the budgeting/gas issues, but I do think you have a strong argument for asking to work from home. Make a case about why you’re more productive at home and how you’ve been successful in the past. Ask if it’s possible to work from home a few times a month (or maybe even weekly) when the weather is bad or you have to wait around for the cable man.

      I think gas prices shouldn’t really be a factor since you knew the commute when you signed up, and everyone is dealing with the same gas prices.

      1. Killer Commute*

        I agree re: knowing the commute when I signed up. I had a rough idea about how much it would cost me, but I never expected to pay more than my rent in car costs each month.

        Thanks for the tips- this was extremely helpful.

    2. Graciosa*

      CoffeeLover is right – this discussion needs to focus on how your working from home benefits the business. Anyone in the office can tell me gas prices went up, and telling me how terrible your commute is won’t win you any points with me as a manager. You knew where the office was when you accepted the job.

      However, it is my responsibility as a manager to do what I can to make sure you can be effective in the work environment. Have you raised the noise issues with your manager? This seems to me to be exactly the kind of thing a manager should want to know and (if possible) address. It may be possible to relocate you to another location, add noise reduction panels, give you permission to work with earphones, or take some other steps to make the work environment more conducive to – um – work. Until you’ve had that conversation, you don’t know what the possibilities are. I would think you would want to be more productive even when you’re not telecommuting.

      Finally, if you can make a good case for telecommuting (based on productivity please) then weather has nothing to do with it when you focus on gas mileage (rather than work time lost in commuting). You should be asking to do this on a regular basis, not just when it’s overcast.

      Again, why would I, as a manager, only want you to be working at peak efficiency on days when it might rain?

        1. Killer Commute*

          Gah- accidentally submitted before I finished!

          I’ve been able to wrangle work from home days when I have a doctor’s appointment as all health care providers are closer to where I live. The manager I had when I started was extremely lenient with allowing me to work from home- it was great. However, he was transferred to a different department and now I have to request work from home days from my executive director- it’s like pulling teeth. He won’t ignores/won’t reply to my emails, I have to cite examples of productivity when I worked from home (for example, I went on vacation for a week and the person who was supposed to cover client communication wasn’t doing it. I ended up working a full day while on a family vacation), etc. Also, our CEO is convinced that being in the office is crucial for our “happy office ethos” when, in reality, we all sit around with noise cancellation headphone because it’s just so loud. The good part is that I’m not the only person who’s bothered by this noise- I’ve commandeered a table by one of the only windows in the office and have been joined by 2 other co-workers because, even though it’s by the front door, it’s one of the quietest places in the office.

          Also, regarding productivity, I’m finding that that it often takes me a good 30-45 minutes to calm down from a particularly horrific morning commute. I’ve also started leaving at 4pm to avoid rush hour traffic (I then work from home for another 1.5-2 hours each night). Also, being up front also means people often stop to chit chat or comment on the three of us sitting up front.

          I apologize in advance- I feel like I sound completely melodramatic. I’m just so frustrated!

    3. K.inFL*

      It’ll be stormy ’til November…and it’s south Florida, if you’re on 95 or the Palmetto, the drivers are always awful and there’s always a wreck. Also, since it’s summer
      Can you take the tri-rail or carpool? Depending on where you’re working, can you use the express lane? Granted that costs some money but you won’t be stop and go hardly at all. Or maybe adjust your hours to avoid peak times?

      1. Killer Commute*

        Unfortunately, no express lane and my job is about 15 miles north of the tri-rail’s last stop. I do take the turnpike and have adjusted my hours to leave at 4pm. I’ve been debating about working for an hour in the morning at home (8am-9am), getting to the office by 10am, and leave at 4pm to return home and working another hour or so to fulfill my 8 hours a day requirement. It’s funny- I thought that traffic would be better in the summer with the lack of school traffic, but I’m finding I prefer the school months as there’s so much less rain!

  158. Too Soon to Re-Apply*

    I recently applied at a large corporation that I’ve wanted to work for for a very long time. Was very excited when they called me in for an interview but unfortunately they decided to pursue other candidates. To give some background info: I emailed the HR Director my resume for an associate position. The HR Director forwarded my resume to the property’s Director who then invited me to interview with herself and the GM of the property. As I mentioned I didn’t get the associate position but there has just been a manager position posted for another property within the company. In reading the job posting, the responsibilities and number of years experience required are identical to the associate position I just interviewed for. Would it be inappropriate to reach back out to either the HR Director or the Director that I just interviewed with to inquire about having my resume forwarded to the new property hiring? I just interviewed and was rejected week before last.

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