open thread – September 12, 2014

by Alison Green on September 12, 2014

Lucy on computerIt’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

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  1. AnonyMOOSE*

    I’m looking to start freelance writing on top of working my full-time job, maybe 10-20 hours a week. I’m wondering anyone has advice about how to build a client base and how to address any concerns potential clients may have with me having a full-time job and wanting to freelance. Any advice would be helpful.

    1. Dasha*

      Maybe start with some volunteer work so you have a portfolio? Add it to your LinkedIn that you’re available for freelance work?

      An old coworker of mine used to do freelance writing and email blasts for her fitness instructor and got free classes- maybe some jobs like that would help get your foot in the door for this kind of thing and help with word of mouth?

      Just a few thoughts. Best of luck :)

    2. Livin' in a Box*

      I only mention my day job if it’s related to the writing. If I’m writing about hotels, you bet I’m mentioning that I work at a hotel! If I’m writing about other stuff, they don’t need to know about my job.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I think it’s really going to depend a lot of what type of writing you’re doing…if you’re doing web content and want smaller, more local clients, trade or volunteer work is a good way to get started. But landing a larger client might be tougher.

    4. K-Anon*

      Sorry for double-post — thought I’d hit REPLY to my post below, which was meant for you.

      AnonyMOOSE — I’ve done a few freelance gigs on the side of my FT job. A few notes. 10 hours a week is doable for me and maybe occasionally I could do 16. But sustaining more than 10 hours a week — you might want to aim for that and see how it works for you before trying to do more. There’s a big difference when you’re doing that on top of a FT week.

      Your freelance clients don’t necessarily need to know if you have an FT gig. They mostly need to know you’ll get the work done you say you will by the deadline, and that the work is done well. I had a longer-term freelance client at one point who knew from the beginning that I had an FT job. That helped manage their expectations in terms of my availability. (It became apparent pretty quickly that they were poorly-managed and I ended up having to “fire” them because they were just so crazy. They were my first freelance client and it was a valuable learning experience.)

      Learning to manage clients as a freelancer is a skill and it takes time, but starting by being clear about expectations for both of you, meet your end of the bargain, should get you off to a good start. I highly recommend The Freelancer’s Bible for getting set up and for tips on building a client base. Even if you’re not planning to freelance fulltime, it is very helpful — a good investment. There are also places like Editorial Freelancers Association that are rich with tips and resources for freelance writers and editors. Good luck!

      1. Sascha*

        Just wanted to second K-Anon’s good advice. I do freelance editing/proofing and also have a full time job. I only have one client right now, but he keeps me pretty busy, so I don’t really want anymore – I usually work about 5-10 hours a week.

        One thing I had to learn the hard way is this – be upfront and firm about your policies, especially payment. Don’t compromise on that. I worked with one guy who “just didn’t do Paypal” and wanted to mail me checks, and the result was he sent them in late or never. I had to constantly email him about the payments and I kept getting “I’ll send it soon, don’t worry.” When I got the last payment from him, I dropped him. Clients that like are not worth dealing with.

          2. LBK*

            Even if you don’t like using Paypal/Venmo/other direct transfer services, almost every bank has an online bill pay feature where you just enter the info for the payment and they cut and mail the check for you – so you don’t have to remember to send it out yourself, you just have to remember to fill out the info. And if it’s a set rate, you can set it to pay

            1. Megan*

              I am in Australia and it seriously mystifies me how behind America is in regards to banking! I haven’t used a cheque in years in Australia – nor has anyone I know.

              We simply give our bank account number and every single bank in Australia does a thing where you transfer to another account. It takes 24 hours, or quicker if the account is with the same bank.

              It’s so simple and easy. I don’t understand why America doesn’t do it!

              I also freelance and my invoices have my bank details on it, and a note saying ‘payment due within 30 days to nominated account’. Easy. Simple. No fees (ie paypal). No messing around cashing a cheque.

              Why would a bank need to cut and cash a cheque?! It makes no sense.

              America, catch up already!!

              1. Suzy*

                @Megan — We do indeed have online banking transfers in America! :) I agree with you that it is very, very simple. I do it all the time. I’m a freelance writer, too.

                However, I think the reason some people use PayPal is when you don’t know someone you can be reluctant to give them your banking or credit card information. I’m always leery of people that I don’t know, especially new clients.

    5. Barbara in Swampeast*

      There is only one place to go:
      http://www.makealivingwriting.com/

      There is lots of great, free info on her blog and she has a paid-membership-only site also that is good. I don’t know if it is open for new members right now or not. But read the blog and sign-up for her newsletters, they are great!

      2. Barbara in Swampeast*

        Just noticed that a lot of recent blog posts are about eBooks. That is a recent topic. Go back to August and before and the blog will be more about freelance writting.

    9. Fact & Fiction*

      I would recommend checking out elance.com, guru.com, and other similar writing boards, as well as searching for volunteer opportunities to build a portfolio. Volunteermatch.org is a great resource for volunteer positions. Additionally, I would write a few audition/sample pieces for various types of writing, if you don’t already have samples. Good luck!

    10. Adiposehysteria*

      I’ve been a freelance writer for about two years and I started out using Elance because it gives you a little more protection. The client has to prepay and the money goes into escrow. The fees are higher than PayPal, but I personally would rather pay the extra fees to have the protection for at least the first few times you use a client so that you can be sure they will pay.

      I would suggest if you use them for writing to not bother with the hourly jobs, but rather the flat rate jobs only unless you are willing to put tracking software on your computer. If you have a dispute on an hourly job, they will find for the client every time if you don’t have that software. I don’t even touch hourly jobs because of that.

      Starting out, you are unfortunately going to have to take extremely low paying jobs (i.e. $3-$4 per article) just to build a client base. The only way to get good clients is to have reviews from other clients. It takes some time to do this and can be annoying to say the least.

      If you are only looking to do this part time, don’t bother with the pro membership, you do not need it unless you are set on knowing what you are bidding against. I don’t bother because I know if there are a lot of overseas writers that they will be bidding very low.

      You will get the best results in finding work if you can find something to specialize in and apply for those jobs (such as using professional knowledge or knowledge from hobbies). If you have a background in something, you can get more money. Having good knowledge of SEO writing is a must.

      Elance is far from perfect, but it is very good when you are first trying to find clients, so I would recommend it in your case.

      1. K-Anon*

        If AnonyMOOSE does good research before starting to prospect for clients, she (?) may very well be able to command market rates, especially if she’s got specialized writing skills or knowledge, e.g., is a strong technical writer and has clips to show it. So, yes, freelance writing can be competitive and a lot of it doesn’t pay great, but it may be worth it to spend more time looking for the right kind of clients and take a smaller number of better jobs in the meantime. Since AnonyMOOSE has an FT job, she is probably a better position to take that time than a new fulltime freelancer would be.

        AnonyMOOSE, one of the exercises in the Freelancer’s Bible is to make an inventory of skills you have that you could charge for right now — not just for writing. I found that really helpful because I found that list ended up a) being a lot longer than I thought it would be
        b) highlighting areas in which I really can consider myself to have specialized, in-demand knowledge or skills c) being the first step in helping me focus on which kind of clients to aim for and
        d) being helpful when I was doing research in setting rates.

        So while you *might* have to work for low rates in the beginning, but don’t assume it’s a must, especially if you have demonstrable experience in the field.

    11. C Average*

      One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention here is dealing with taxes. My mother is a successful freelance writer who’s been in the business for years, and she’s always done her own taxes. She is ruthlessly organized and has a great system for maintaining paperwork and other records, and it’s still an annual challenge. It might be worth setting up some time with a good accountant to get a sense of what kinds of information you’ll need to have on hand from your clients come tax time.

      The great part of being knowledgeable about the ins and outs of this stuff is that you can then exploit them to your benefit! When I was a kid, every family vacation we ever took included at least a few places my mother could profile for travel mags. We wrote off every trip we took. She also, of course, wrote off computers and other office equipment she needed to have at home.

  2. Trixie*

    My 66-year-old mother applied for a government job, and after a phone interview, was flown out this week for an interview/45 minute presentation. Granted, she’s in a specialized field but we’re both just thrilled. She was so sure she’d have to leave her field based on age and her rather chaotic job history so it was really nice to see her get a response so quickly after applying. She’s still applying for other jobs but should this move forward, sees this as an excellent opportunity to other positions when she transitions to “retirement.” Feeling encouraged, inspired, and proud.

    4. Brett*

      That’s one thing I have found positive about local government hiring. We tend to be very favorable towards older applicants. All of our most talented people were hired either straight out of school or late career. The late career people, especially, have enormous talent and experience that government simply cannot pay enough to land normally (honestly, we don’t pay enough anyway and lose at least 2/3rds of late career candidates in salary negotiations).
      And since pensions vest at 5 years here, it is a near guarantee that if we can hire that person they will stick around 5 years. Always totally worth it for us.
      (The 5-year pension is only 9% of your final salary, but that’s still an extra couple hundred dollars a month so most people stick out the full 5 years.)

      1. Anx*

        When I interned at a local government department, the employee I most looked up to was older and a late starter. She also had the most, well, ‘hustle.’ She was phenomenal and really took the time to help train me and engage me, and she got more work done in a day than many of her coworkers that had been there for decades.

        Sadly, as it was a government positions, she made perhaps 1/3 of what some of the people she worked with made because of their seniority.

        1. C Average*

          I had a colleague like this at one of my first jobs, too. She was in her 60s and was helping to raise her grandkids, and had entered the workforce for the first time as an admin assistant at a state agency. She had a phenomenal work ethic and was so, so smart–not just book-smart, but understanding-all-the-moving-parts smart. And so very gracious, even if she was answering the same question she’d just answered from someone else. One of my favorite people I’ve ever worked with.

  3. MT*

    Piggy Backing on recent headlines. Had a discussion with some co-workers, wanted to see what everyone else thinks. Is it OK to fire someone for outside of the work activities that may cast them in a negative light in the work place?

    1. Bobotron*

      I don’t really have an answer but at one of my jobs I had to sign something that I wouldn’t have another job that would “look bad,” i.e. being a stripper.

      1. nep*

        Rather subjective, no? Something that would ‘look bad’ to one person might be fine for someone else. Were I to sign such a document, I’d want it to be as precise as possible.

    2. Mimmy*

      I’ve been thinking about that myself (if you’re referring to what I think you are) and have always been mixed about it. One the one hand, I worry that certain activities reflect on your overall character, making me question your abilities and/or ethics. BUT another part of me thinks that, depending on the activity, it shouldn’t matter what you do outside of work as long as your work is of high quality and that you behave professionally while working.

      Ugh, so hard to say!!

      1. Judy*

        If we’re talking about what I think we are, I’d say there is a significant difference when you are a “brand”. Some industries (entertainment, sports, etc) rely on “brands” of the participants to generate income.

        That’s not saying that I’d want to share a cubicle with someone who has been notorious due to violence.

    3. Joey*

      Be thoughtful about it if you do. It really blurs the line between work and personal life and lots of people take offense to that. The few times I’ve done it is for things that clearly affect the workplace like an employee stalking another employee after work, a supervisor repeatedly asking out a subordinate after work after being told no.

      But for things like doing things that might embarrass the company it would have to be really bad and really clear its affecting work.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      I’m in education, where teachers can get fired for using Facebook or having a glass of wine in public (eye roll) so you probably can, especially in a right-to-work state. I guess it depends on how egregious the employee’s judgment has been.

      1. Seattlejo*

        Doesn’t it also depend on where you are? Some parts of the country it might be going to a shooting range and posting pictures that gets you fired, others it’s going to a gay pride event and yet others its having that glass of wine.

      3. the gold digger*

        I know someone from college who was fired from his high school teaching job for being caught in a prostitution sting. It was in his contract, so it should not have been a surprise to him.

      4. Natalie*

        Psst, it’s “at will”. “Right to work” covers whether you can be required to join a union. Really common mixup.

        1. Brett*

          “Right-to-work state” also has the extra connotation that public sector unions are severely restricted or even banned, so teachers have little to no union protection and contracts are mostly whatever the district wants included.

      5. Ezri*

        I’ve heard this before, and I’m curious – are there documented incidents where a teacher’s personal life (normal behaviors like wine-drinking, etc.) caused ‘harm’ to the kids they teach? Why do these rules exist?

      6. Bea W*

        I strongly feel that no one’s career should be destroyed over a photos that depict totally legal and socially acceptable activities like having a glass of wine or modeling swimwear or for even iffy (but still totally legal) jobs that they have taken while still in school and young to pay the bills. Some of the things that happen to teachers are just outrageous. Photos of a teacher serving wine to her classroom – bad. Photos of a teacher after hours, holding a glass of wine out with friends – completely legal, normal, and socially acceptable behavior for an adult. I just think it’s like using a chain saw to clip coupons.

    5. KSM*

      There are certain roles where you basically act as an ambassador for the brand. So the head of marketing doing something publicly untoward might get canned just for optics.

      Football players are so tightly integrated with the brand–for their tenure, if they are beloved, they really do *become* the brand–that his firing made sense.

        1. MT*

          Wouldn’t that cover anyone who has direct contact with customers? In some business that would be a lot of employees.

          1. Em*

            No, because when the average member of the public hears Joe Schmoe, they don’t think cashier at Kroger. When you hear something about a big name athletes/entertainers, you immediately associate them with their employer even if the story isn’t within the context of their job.

        1. Sweet Potato*

          Yeah, it’s reasonable to fire people for things that clearly go against their professional training and code of conduct, imho.

      3. Observer*

        If we’re talking about the same case, we are also talking a level of behavior that is egregious. And, although the prosecutors may have felt that they couldn’t get a conviction, there was clearly illegal activity involved, which is always a legitimate issue for employers to consider.

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      This is a tough one, so I’m going to get a little pedantic:

      Is it OK to fire someone for outside of the work activities that may cast them in a negative light in the work place?

      So, the question is about actions that “may cast them in a negative light in the workplace”. The “may” is my biggest issue, because that’s borrowing trouble. How do you determine that if no one actually is bothered or has complained yet? But then it specifies “in the workplace”, so you’re not talking about turning off potential customers, you’re talking about coworkers, and so I think the standard should be much higher. Absent anything that creates a hostile work environment or makes coworkers feel unsafe (activities involving indiscriminate violence), I don’t think a person’s co-workers have a right to not work with them for things you do outside of work, assuming of course they act professionally at work.

      1. Chriama*

        That would depend on the situation. If it was something widely held to be immoral(like people with convicted sex offender coworkers), I think a good boss would consider the impact on the rest of the employees. And I also think that anyone who does those things shouldn’t expect people to like them or want to hire them.

    7. John*

      It’s tricky and situational. By that, I mean that I’d be careful about a public-facing role. But if they are back office, for example, then the issue is, what, that other employees might feel uncomfortable? I don’t just to be judgy about what people do outside the office. But if there is reputational risk, that is a consideration.

      Of course, you’re talking about actually firing them. Are there company policies that they are breaking?

    8. Bea W*

      I think there is no clean cut answer to this. It really depends on the job and the non-work activity.

      I do think, in the entertainment industry, some of the consequences for bad things people have done, is questionably harsh in terms of employment, on the other hand, the message not taking action sends to the general public is important and can be influential. The fact that some of these things paint a team or media group in a bad light ends up being a business decision for the employers too. I think many of these incidents sometimes end up in a no-win situation, particularly when you prevent someone from ever working in the industry again, that has very negative consequences that go beyond the person who lost his job.

      For example, Ray Rice may fully deserve the consequences he got, but I can’t say the same for his wife. What’s worse, in a situation like this, guess who is going to be the guy’s punching bag over the whole thing. There are just no winners here no matter what the outcome would have been.

      1. Observer*

        Here’s the thing. It’s probably true that he’s going to blame his wife for this mess. But, guess what. There is no reason to believe staying on the team would make a difference. Let’s face it – he nearly killed her while things were going as well as they can. So, I don’t think it’s really valid to say that any further violence by him against her is because of his firing. On the other hand, I suppose it’s possible that this will be something that helps her to move forward in understanding who has responsibility for what.

        1. Bea W*

          It would make no difference in terms of how he behaved, that’s correct, but if people think kicking him off the team or the NFL will do his wife any favors, they’re totally missing the fact that either way it works out he’s still violently abusive. I think it was the right decision for a number of reasons, and at the same time I am acutely aware that for anyone being out of work creates is an added financial strain that will magnify the awfulness of it. That’s why I see it as lose-lose – no matter what the outcome. If he keeps his job, he’s still going to beat his wife. If he loses his job, he’s still going to beat his wife. No winners there. Now that he’s not playing that means he’s home with her every day instead of out at games or traveling with the team. So it indeed may end up being worse for her if only because he’s home more often.

          1. Jamie*

            Yes, I don’t think any workplace should factor into how their actions to fire or not will impact a domestic situation like this because there is no way to know and dynamics like this aren’t assuaged by external forces. Not long term, anyway.

            If a regular guy has anger management issues with stress and due to serious financial problems he’s beating his wife, no one would recommend his employer give him a big raise so his financial problems go away and he’s sunny again. Because that’s not how abusers work – it’s a temporary band aid at best.

            In this situation like it or not they are role models – people can say whatever they like about it should only be about their performance on the field but these guys makes crazy money due to the fan support and public interest. So it’s in society’s best interest, IMO, that they make a very public statement that when you do this kind of thing you can lose everything you’ve worked for. And society as a whole will think you’re a total shit, no matter how well you handle a ball.

            I think there is a moral obligation on the part of the NFL to not tacitly condone it and send the message that if you’re important enough at work there are no consequences for you. That may well be true in many cases, but it’s not something we should seek to condone.

            TLDR if your private actions can cost your companies brand money or status then it’s fair game to fire you. If I work with customers and I get a neck tattoo my bosses can can me if they think they will lose business…how would it be any less for being afraid of losing business based on my being publicly known to be violent – esp with footage.

            I often say I have a work me and a home me – but that’s for mindset and relaxation purposes….there is no clear delineation between our personal and public selves.

            I handle a budget of over 200K – if I were arrested for embezzling from my church or volunteer job wouldn’t it make sense for my employer to fire me for lack of ethics even if I didn’t steal from him?

            1. Jamie*

              FWIW I hate sports, but I get that it’s a money maker…still the fact that Michael Vick didn’t get a lifetime ban sickens me and makes me hate society a little bit every time I think about it.

              I think shunning like the Amish do, large scale, would be great for certain things.

              1. Valar M.*

                I used to think this about Michael Vick too. I’m still not a fan of his (what he did was egregious), but the point of punishment – his jail sentence (and as a result his financial ruin/bankruptcy/loss of job) is to make the person realize what they’ve done wrong, repent, and then ultimately reincorporate them back into society a better person. If this is possible (and the humane society among others seemed to think it was, so I’m assuming there was some judgement there), I’d rather see that then people lost for a lifetime, usually of repeat offenses. As a high profile case, he can be a great example of how you can turn your life around after you pay the price first. I just hate the idea that someone can commit an offense, truly change, and then be jobless and potentially homeless the rest of their life.

              2. Bea W*

                I was thinking the exact same thing about Vic earlier. Then there was a story tonight about another player charged with child abuse. I think he was only suspended for a number of games. Then there’s Aaron Hernandez, accused of murder and as far as I know no decision on whether he’s even suspended let alone banned though being in jail and not bring able to get contract amounts to the same thing. Still…if you can kill people and not get banned from the NFL…what’s left?

    9. Helka*

      It’s certainly not something to do indiscriminately or casually, but I think in certain circumstances — such as a high profile position or a role representing the company to outsiders, combined with “extracurricular” activities that are extremely damaging, not just criminal but violently criminal, it can cast a very bad light on the company as a whole to keep that person on, and it’s better to let them go.

    10. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I think a lot of it has to do with what everyone has said about being a brand for the company. But I’d also support someone getting fired for non-work activities if they’re so egregious that coworkers/management/others would feel uncomfortable working with the person. Say, a history of violent behavior…

    11. kf*

      I think that is you are in the public eye and sign an employment contract which has a morality clause then yes, it is OK to fire someone for outside of work activities. Those activities are what the morality clause pertains to specifically.

    12. Student*

      In America, we often “vote with our money” – if we are willing to pay for something, then we consider it acceptable and vice versa. We’re very capitalist in our expressions of our values.

      So, I think decisions to fire people due to behavior outside the workplace come from two distinct root causes.
      (1) Management thinks this will hurt their business profits, because outsiders will not support the behavior. This has been covered pretty well by all the folks talking about the employee as part of a “brand”.
      (2) Management doesn’t want to support the behavior by financially supporting the employee. Either the management finds the behavior objectionable, or enough staff do that continued support of the employee will undermine moral (maybe drive off high-performance employees, maybe just lower general productivity).

      I think the football player who beat his wife and recently got fired for it is clearly part of camp #1. Football management clearly didn’t care about #2. When it looked like it would impact their business, they got rid of him. I am no football expert (not even a football novice), but much of the press speculation around this case has suggested he was fired because the football leagues want to gain a larger female following. Let’s face it, appealing to women is about the only way they can expand their domestic market. They really need to take a more strict stance against wife-beating to do that; the press was having a gleeful time pointing out that the original penalty for wife-beating was less harsh than penalties for numerous non-violent offenses like drug use, or for violent offenses against dogs. I love most dogs more than I like most people, but the penalty for hurting a human should always be higher than the penalty for hurting a pet.

      I do think businesses should have wide latitude to fire people who are hurting their business. I think it’s about society’s values, in the end. It’s about society imposing consequences for people’s actions. It’s the “other side of the coin” to protests, boycotts, and bad press. It is a lot less harsh than dealing with everything we dislike by using lawsuits or criminal charges, and it’s an appropriate penalty for many anti-social behaviors in and out of the office. Firing specifically should be reserved for the most serious of non-work but non-criminal behaviors. Frankly, I think this football guy is getting pretty easy because society puts too high a value on football over women – he deserves criminal justice and jail time, not merely career problems. If he had beaten his team owner the way he did his wife, you can be sure he’d be in prison now.

      Sometimes, businesses will use this power to do things I passionately disagree with. Firing teachers for drinking alcohol on their free time, firing gay people for existing, punishing women harshly for behavior that is acceptable for men, discrimination against minorities. In those cases, it’s more about society on the whole than one specific manager or one specific business – those businesses are a reflection of our culture, and they will change as the culture does. I wouldn’t revoke business’ ability to impose social consequences on actions, though – it is a form of free speech, just like protests. I’d limit the most egregious misuse of that power, like we do through non-discrimination laws, but those should be a rare limit to impose.

      1. Bea W*

        I hate to agree with you there. If it were #2, he would have been fired long before now. He was charged with assault on top of losing his job, but whether that results in any real consequences for him, like jail time, remains to be seen.

    13. AnonyMouse*

      I think it really depends on what kind of activities you’re talking about. If someone’s done something illegal or severely unethical outside of work, and they’re in a public facing role, then sure (so assuming the “recent headlines” are what I think they are, it’s okay). Especially if there’s concrete evidence that could become public, rather than just rumours. But if you just personally disapprove of the way they live their life, I’d say no – so no firing someone for, say, dating more/different people than you think they should.

      1. MT*

        A lot of the problem is that what is ethical to one person, is unethical to the next. Someone is not guilty of doing something illegal till they are tried in a court of law. A good amount of these decisions are based on the owners values and become super subjective.

        1. Valar M.*

          Like keeping Ray Lewis on the team who allegedly is a conspirator in a double homicide, but then getting rid of Ray Rice. That’s the problem I think, if you can reach a settlement out of court, and avoid dragging the public through all the terrible visuals – you can get away with your job still in tact.

        2. AnonyMouse*

          Yes, it’s definitely complicated when people’s values are involved, and for that reason I generally do like to keep personal affairs out of hiring/firing decisions, especially for the average worker. But for people in public facing or sensitive roles, you do sometimes need to have a different standard – and I’m okay with that if it’s made clear to them when they take the job. For instance, some people have mentioned standards for teachers’ behaviour. One of my closest friends is a teacher, and she’s the first to admit she has to be extra careful about what she puts out there on the internet…but she knew that was part of the deal when she signed on to work with kids, and she agreed to those conditions. Most people who are high profile athletes/musicians/actors, in another case, are also probably aware that any wrongdoing (or suspected wrongdoing) on their part might make the news, and if the backlash gets severe enough, it could cost them professionally. I don’t think this is fair, per se, but it’s also not a secret that it can happen.

          And on the other side, I do think owners and bosses have the responsibility to try to be objective when making these decisions. If something is detestable to you personally, but not universally regarded as wrong, or if someone is accused of but not proven to have done something they shouldn’t have, cutting them some slack can certainly be warranted. These kinds of issues definitely don’t have a one-size fits all answer!

    14. C Average*

      This is a really interesting discussion.

      I think I have qualms about this only because how society views certain actions (and, for that matter, how knowable other people’s actions are) is such a moving target.

      Thirty years ago, using corporal punishment for your kid was relatively non-controversial (as my own backside can attest). Now it’s largely considered inappropriate and ineffective. Acts that used to be considered disciplinary are now viewed as abusive.

      In the past, being openly gay was considered morally wrong by most of society. Now, fortunately, the tide has shifted toward public acceptance.

      In the past, alcoholism was considered a failure of willpower. Now we understand that it’s a bit more complex; if we had a colleague with an alcohol problem, we’d encourage her to seek treatment and, assuming the outcome was successful, we’d welcome her back to the workplace.

      Gender reassignment is a bit of a hot workplace topic now, with efforts to legislate tolerance where it’s not happening organically. A generation ago, choosing to present as a different gender was considered deviant by many; now, workplaces are striving to combat institutionalized discrimination against transgender people.

      Things like spousal abuse and sex-offender status feel pretty bright-line from where we sit, but what if in a decade science determines that these proclivities are genetic, and medicine creates a cure, and we shift to regarding them as rehabilitatable vulnerabilities and deficiencies? We’ll have to rethink a whole bunch of legal and cultural assumptions we’ve been making for a long time.

      So I guess my thought would be that if you’re going to make someone’s continued employment contingent on him not doing something that “casts him in a negative light,” you’d better be really clear about what behaviors you’re talking about, and you’d better be really clear about whether that means “in a negative light” for a reasonable person, for the employer, for the management, for the clientele, etc. And you should be prepared for the behaviors considered unacceptable to evolve over time.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        Yes, norms about acceptable behaviour being changeable is definitely an important point. But I think one thing to consider when we’re talking about something like being openly gay vs. something like intimate partner violence is that being gay is not harmful to others. The fact that gay people are sexually attracted to same-gender individuals can be viewed both as an innate characteristic, and as something that doesn’t have the power to hurt anyone. But if someone was, say, born with an innate desire to punch people in the face as hard as possible, they would have a moral responsibility to attempt to control that desire because of its impact on other people.

        I view actions that are or could be harmful to others very differently than behaviour I just don’t like, and I think bosses who are considering firing employees based on incidents in their personal lives have a responsibility to consider this distinction. For instance, if it comes to light that an employee has a track record of violence when under pressure and has not taken steps to combat this tendency, it would be reasonable to let them go from a high pressure position out of fear of their actions. But if you find out that one of your employees has more sexual partners than you personally think is appropriate, that doesn’t harm anyone else (assuming they’re using appropriate protection) and shouldn’t influence their ability to succeed in the workplace.

        Now, I’m not at all suggesting that you were equating being gay with assaulting someone – I think your point is really valid, and I 100% agree with your last paragraph. But I do think it’s important for everyone, and especially employers who might be in a position to fire someone for reasons related to their personal life, to recognise that we can and should distinguish between behaviours that could seem subjectively objectionable, and actions that are harmful to others.

  4. Katie the Fed*

    I’m doing performance appraisals right now. Question – do other people’s employees have to do self-evaluations first (including scoring themselves against the criteria? It’s one of my least favorite things. And one thing I’ve noticed consistently is women really tend to lowball themselves when doing their self-evaluations – which makes supervisors more likely to rate them lower. I think it’s really hard for many women to get comfortable with marketing themselves.

    2. ClaireS*

      We do a self appraisal first but there is no score number. We position as a Good, Difficult, Different. I actually appreciate the time to reflect on my work. But, we approach it more as a discussion than a quantitative assessment of performance so that may make the difference.

      I’m not surprised that women tend to be harder on themselves. I think that’s a common occurrence across a lot of areas when it comes to confidence.

    3. A Jane*

      Most cases, it’s self-evaluation with scoring first, then you review and add your scores.

      Are they clear on what the grading scale means and how it’s perceived? That usually helps. For example, someone rating themselves all 5/5 when really they should be at a 3/5

    4. Gwen*

      We have to self-evaluate with scoring, and I hate it. I definitely feel torn between seeming like I’m tooting my own horn too hard and like I’m lowballing myself. Especially when you don’t have a firm understanding of how your manager rates (do they NEVER give top rankings? should they ALL be top rankings if I’m doing well except for a few to work on?). It makes me extremely anxious.

      1. ClaireS*

        That’s totally nerve-wracking. Could you have a conversation ahead of the ratings to understand your manager’s position? E. G. Hey! I just wanted to get aligned on how you like to see ratings done. What does a 5 look like to you in general? What about a 3?

        That may give you the general insight so you can work off the same scale.

        1. Gwen*

          I did end up checking in with her before the review, but she was basically just like “do what feels right to you!” (it was my first review with this manager, and it went really well so it turned out all my fretting was for naught!)

    5. AVP*

      Thats interesting! How much would you say that the numbers in the self-evaluation impact the scores that you assign?

      1. Katie the Fed*

        hmm – I’d say a little bit. Like, sometimes I’ll see they gave themself a score that seems high at first glance, but when I read their write up I realize they made a good case for it and I agree.

        And sometimes I think – hmm, yeah, this person could have done better. They’re probably right.

        I’d say when I’m on the fence between two scores they definitely influence me. You’ve got to sell yourself!

        And then occasionally there are the laughably high ones – those are awkward conversations.

    6. Eliza Jane*

      I hate giving myself 5s in anything (on a 1-5) no matter how good I am, because I see that as saying, “There’s no room for improvement.” My manager in an earlier job sat me down and explained to me that I have to stop doing that.

      My current job has “self-evaluations” without numbers. They’re 3x3s, and each person has to say their 3 greatest achievements for the year, their 3 greatest strengths, and 3 areas of improvement. I found that a lot more useful than “On a scale of 1-5, how did you do at growing the business?” or whatever.

      1. Anx*

        Yeah, I would be hardpressed to rate myself a 5, rate myself a 4 if I felt I was among the best on staff and doing a very good job with it. If we were all talented at a specific skill I would have put 3.

    7. Bobotron*

      I just finished reading The Confidence Code and I HIGHLY recommend it. It addresses the issue of women undervaluing their work and talks about how people in leadership positions can encourage women to understand their worth and be vocal about it.

    8. IndieGir*

      We require a self-appraisal, but it is more of a comparison against your personal goals and a discussion of what you think your strengths/weaknesses are than a rate yourself on a scale of 1 to 5 kind of thing. As much as I hate doing them myself, as a manager I’d encourage you to get some form of self-assessment from your employee before you do your appraisal of him/her, because it can really change your mind for the positive. I’ve been far more likely to upgrade someone after reading their self-assessment than mark them down.

      I’d also ask, why are you asking? I mean, are you trying to change current policy? If you are, perhaps you’d have better luck suggesting a more personalized self evaluation approach then trying to get rid of them completely.

    9. Jake*

      Yes, However our raises were not tied to the evaluations at all, so I’d have 50% does not meet expectations and 50% satisfactories and get double the raise of the guy that started at the same time and have himself 90% satisfactories.

        1. Jake*

          Our boss actually knew who deserved raises and who didn’t. Our evaluations were not a factor at all, which allowed us to be painfully honest when self evaluating.

            1. Jake*

              Who does their job well.

              I know that is a bad answer, but he was involved enough and gave enough feedback that if you didn’t know what you weer doing well and what you weren’t, then you just weren’t paying attention.

              Our job was to make our scopes of work run smoothly. The smoother they ran, the better you did. Of course there were hard metrics like dollars spent our schedule dates met, but as involved as he was, he could tell from a qualitative view who was doing well and who wasn’t.

              1. Joey*

                Who does their job well and it isn’t tied to performance?

                That sounds like speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

                1. Jake*

                  Not tied to your performance review.

                  Your performance review was a self evaluation that wasn’t tired to your raise in any way.

      2. Labratnomore*

        Ours are like that too. We get our reviews and bonuses for the past year at the beginning of the next year, but our raises are done in Sept. The managers get a pool of dollars (based on the base raise amount the company has determined x their groups payroll), then they divvy it up however they want. It is not a formal rating process and the only thing that gets reported is the final percent someone get. If you want to rate someone above average you have to take from someone else. If the above average person is higher paid you have to give even lower percentages to the lower paid employees. The crazy thing is that since it is an informal process, the final ratings that get converted into raises may not even be near the review appraisals at the end of the year!

    10. Nutcase*

      On the rare occasion that we get an appraisal we have to self evaluate ourselves beforehand but we don’t do it with scores, we have to write a few lines about how we think we’re doing in each area. These things that we’ve written then act as a starting point for the conversation during the appraisal. I think it works quite well when my manager actually gets around to doing our appraisals. (18 months now and no feedback for me! D:)

      I think I’d be uncomfortable giving myself a definite score. I’m an introvert and very self aware so I’d feel a bit ridiculous giving myself top marks even though in some things I may deserve it. I’m really my own worst enemy so much of the time.

    11. ACA*

      I haaaate self-appraisals, but I’d so much rather rate myself 1-5 (which we had at my old job) than use the short-answer format my current job has.

    12. Joey*

      I don’t call it self evaluation, but that’s essentially what it is. I tell people to give me a list of exceptional accomplishments they want to make sure show up in their evals.

    13. BRR*

      We self-appraise then send it to our manager a week before we meet to discuss it. This gives the manager time to edit.

    14. Ann Furthermore*

      Yes, I have to do a self-evaluation twice a year. Once for mid-years, once for year-end. We do them first, or at least independent of the evaluation your manager does, and then you have to give yourself an overall ranking. I don’t mind doing it because I keep a running list through the year of what I’ve done, and I refer back to it when doing my evaluation so I don’t miss anything. Something that completely consumed me from February through April may not even be on my radar in December since a zillion other things have happened since then. Also, my boss has a ton of different things going on all the time, so she doesn’t always know what I’ve worked on beyond the big picture level. I’m pretty detailed in my self-evaluations so she can get a good idea of what I’ve done through the year.

      What’s interesting is that I usually rate myself middle of the road — Meets Expectations. In a distribution of all employees’ rankings, this is the one that is the middle of the bell curve and where most people end up (even though I equate it to being a C student, despite HR telling me that’s not the way I should look at it). Last year was a very challenging year for me, and I stretched in quite a few areas and led the charge implementing a piece of the ERP system that I’d never used before. So I rated myself as “Exceeds Expectations” for the first time. There’s also one level above that, “Exemplary,” but it’s rare for someone to get that rating, because it means that you’re perfect in every way. I’ve gotten that on a few individual things, but never as an overall rating.

      Also last year on that project I had to work with someone on my team that I’d never worked closely with before. She’s very, very smart, but also rude, abrasive, and bull-headed. So we had a few run-ins. But my boss thinks the sun shines out of her posterior.

      Anyway — every other year my boss rated me as “Exceeds Expectations.” But when I rated myself that way, she rated me one level lower — “Meets Expectations.” This was due mostly to the conflicts I had with this one co-worker.

      My review was the same version of what it is every year, which is some version of, “Your work is outstanding but you’ve got a short fuse.” And I can’t really argue — I do get impatient, and even though it’s something I try to work on, and something I do know about myself, it’s usually a function of my stress level. And I’m pretty sure my co-worker mentioned our disagreements when my boss asked her for feedback.

      So I’ve wondered…did my boss rate me as “Meets Expectations” due to my challenges with my warm and fuzzy side, or because I rated myself as “Exceeds Expectations?”

    15. HAnon*

      I have to do this once a quarter for my performance reviews with my boss. Boss also made up a scale for each quality with cutesy names (ex, instead of “attention to detail” it’s something like “Fashion Star.” The worst part is that I have to rate my performance in each category on a scale of 1-10 and explain why I rated myself that way. I always rate myself above average because I think I do an awesome job, but it’s super awkward watching her go over my self-rating and wondering whether or not she’s going to agree or disagree or bump me down a notch. She also makes me say what I think I need to work on and improve in, and how I’m going to do so…I can be self-aware up to a point, but come on. I feel like if someone is a manager, they should be pointing out any potential areas for growth or improvement and give you feedback. I wish she would just give me clear ratings for things and then explain why. :p

    16. NavyLT*

      I’ve never asked my people to provide numbers on evals, and I disregard any that are provided. They’re too subjective if people are being honest–and half the time they just give me a write-up with straight 5’s, on the principle that they might not get marked down or something. I do ask for a written draft, though.

    17. Bea W*

      Yes and yes to your observations. I do lowball myself, because I don’t want to be a braggart and I am afraid that I am overestimating the credit I ought to give myself. I am afraid maybe I think more of myself than I should. So I want to be more realistic in scoring…which may mean it’s not actually realistic. There is no self-scoring at my current employers, but we do a self eval discussing our goals and accomplishments. I do the same thing. On the other hand, I have a female co-worker who has no problem writing several single-spaced pages extolling her awesomeness in great detail. I would feel so self conscious doing that, and maybe it’s too much, but at the same time I salute her for being that gutsy.

    18. Sandra Dee*

      Our current system requires self-appraisals with rankings 1-5 with 5 being a total rock star. Once submitted, our manager then does the same rankings, BUT, they do not see how we ranked until they complete their process, therefore they are not influenced by my rankings. For the past 3 years, even with different managers, there are always 2 goals that we are flipped on how we each view it, I would rank one as a 4, and they would rank as a 3, and one ranked as a 3, and the manager would rank as a 4. It evened out in the end.

    19. Treena Kravm*

      If you’re concerned about their low ratings influencing yours, why don’t you each do your own separately and then either bring them to the meeting or only read the self-evals after writing your own?

    20. Elkay*

      I was really lucky and my boss did an exceptionally good job with my mid-year review (which isn’t official) and broke it down into the same categories as the main review and gave me a rating and a write up on each section. It was really helpful when it came to year end because I was able to base my assessments on her mid-year assessments and it made me less worried that I was misjuding my own ratings.

    21. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, yes, and I hate them. I’m always afraid I’ll rate myself higher than my boss would and he/she will say, “ARE YOU KIDDING HAHAHAHAHAHA.” I just don’t see why we have to do that–only the boss’s input matters anyway. The only thing I would keep from that process is the goals part, not the rankings.

    22. LAI*

      We do a self-evaluation but it’s not providing scores. It’s answering open-ended questions like “What have been your biggest accomplishments this year?” and “What goals are you working toward in the upcoming year?”. From what I understand, the purpose is to provide your supervisor with more information and perhaps let them know about things they may not have noticed before they do your review.

    23. Witty Nickname*

      One thing that could make it easier for people to do the self-scoring is to set up their goals like this:

      Goal: Produce chocolate teapots that meet specific quality and quantity standards.
      * Meets: 50 chocolate teapots per day, with a 90% quality score
      * Exceeds: 75 chocolate teapots per day, with a 92% quality score

      This might not be easy to do for every job or goal, but my boss did it with my goals one year. They weren’t as easily quantifiable as my example one, but she was able to articulate what meeting and exceeding would look like for each goal. Then when it was time to do my self-evaluation, I was able to use that as a guide in talking about what I’d accomplished. If I’d had to score it as well, I wouldn’t have had as much conflict over whether I was going to high or low.

      (I don’t know that it’s necessarily that women don’t have confidence in their work or aren’t comfortable marketing themselves. For me, absent the specific guidelines above, I’d probably be more likely to give myself a “meets” when my boss would give me an “exceeds” because I always feel like I could be doing more. If I could be doing more, how can I be exceeding?)

    24. LV Ladybug*

      I always ask the employee before giving the review, as a conversation starter. I will ask them how they think they did this past year, and give a grade. Most will give something around a B. Then we discuss. They tell me what they should improve on or what they are good at and we go from there. It usually works well. And yes, the women are usually harder on themselves. But it doesn’t alter what I have already written.

    25. Labratnomore*

      We do have to score and write our self-evaluations first. I agree with others that have a hard time scoring. I always try to be honest, but I do sometimes feel like I may be perceived as being arrogant if I have to many high ratings, but I certainly don’t want to low-ball myself either. It is especially hard because these are seen by several people higher up the ladder so I want them to be accurate, but I also know my boss tends to rate lower than everyone else as well. We actually did a development survey earlier this year where several other sets of people rated us; it was anonymous except for our manager’s appraisal. It did have separate groups for peers, other management personnel of groups I work with, and a misc. category. My boss was consistently below everyone else in every category, but at least it seemed to be in trend with the other groups (If they gave me a 4 she gave me a 3, if they gave me a 5 she gave me a 4). I did point that out to her and have a discussion about it, but I am not sure that will help me at review time.

    26. Nerdling*

      We don’t have to do self-assessments/self-evaluations first, but we are encouraged to. I’ll be honest: I usually don’t. In fact, most of the folks on my squad usually don’t, men or women. But our performance appraisals actually have very little to do with getting a promotion — we just have to be rated “Successful” across the board to put in for promotions when the appropriate time comes, and then we have to fill out a much more time-consuming and ridiculous package to even be considered — so there’s not as much impetus to do them.

    27. C Average*

      We don’t do scoring, but we do do appraisals.

      I hate them with the fire of a thousand blazing suns.

      Part of why I hate them is that, having seen plenty of examples of how we’re supposed to write them, I feel boxed into this jargon-laden, unnatural mode of expression that just feels bullshitty no matter what information I’m actually conveying.

      It sort of feels like a competitive exercise involving repeated use of acronyms, name-dropping of other departments, careful mention of my (tangential) involvement in projects my manager may actually have heard of, and lots of strategic this and cross-functional that. There are times I’ve re-read mine (in years I got rated “highly successful” and knew I’d done good work) and thought, “What does this nonsense even MEAN?”

      You know those online generators of technobabble and bureaucrat-ese? Someone could totally build one of these for annual reviews. “I achieved strategic objectives through cross-functional efforts. I achieved desired outcomes across key metrics. I exceeded my SMART goals across all core competencies. I leveraged key resources and partnerships.”

      I wish I could just say, “I showed up on time and appropriately dressed every day. I carried out my assigned tasks and additional ad-hoc requests, generally with at least the appearance of cheerfulness and good nature. I paid attention in meetings. I learned new stuff when necessary, usually on my own time. I came early and stayed late when I needed to. I traveled when I needed to. I tried to be helpful and informative toward new hires. I occasionally failed to pick up on subtle nonverbal cues, and I failed to successfully feign enthusiasm during team-building events. I give myself an official rating of Pretty Good Job.”

    28. Auditoholic*

      We do the 1-5 on five different leadership dimensions and then also on our goals (I have 3 big goals for the year), and then an overall 1-5, as well as writing a few sentences to back up our scores. We actually have training on what the scores should look like, that includes different scenarios and examples. Our company expects employees to perform at a 3. That’s meeting expectations. 4 is exceeding expectations, and 5 is practically unheard of since it requires perfections. Anything below a 3 is an automatic performance plan.

  5. Ali*

    Burning question: How do you know if you need to change careers (vs. just getting a new job in your field)?

    I work in media at present and would love to stay in the field, as I am searching for jobs now. However, I feel like the field is too saturated and there’s not a lot of room to go elsewhere. Not to mention that journalism itself is a somewhat dying breed. Anyway, I’ve applied for jobs where it’s not unusual to have 300-500 applicants an opening, not only with experienced writers/communications pros, but everyone else who thinks the work I do is glamorous and they want in. I have tried taking Alison’s advice (she helped me with my resume) and wrote cover letters saying what attracted me to the company, why I’d be good at the job and so forth. And…crickets. I just feel as if this field is too competitive for me to stand out, as I get a lot of praise at my jobs but I’m not the “rock star” everyone wants. I don’t know how much more creatively I can write a cover letter or how much further to make sure my resume shows accomplishments to stand out. I just feel stuck.

    Should I go for a new field, or keep beating a dead horse with the communications work? Even at my own company, where I’ve been told my boss trusts me, I have great communication skills and I’m generally strong at my work save a few weak areas (but nothing that would cost me my job or hurt me on the search). I have people willing to be references for me and who have said oh ABC employer called and I said good things about you. All that said, the offers and interviews just aren’t coming.

    Any advice?

    1. Ali*

      My job search was brought on partially because I got rejected for a job within the company. The manager who gave me feedback (my regular, now former, boss was out on medical leave, so another manager I work with gave me some guidance) did say that moving up in our company is part right place/right time and part skill. And he admitted that he doesn’t know if I could be promoted in the company or have to go elsewhere. This combined with the crazy competition has me just boggled. (Though I appreciate my manager’s honesty.)

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      How long have you been trying (with the revamped resume and cover letters)? That’s going to be a big point of data here, I think. (Also, have you truly taken all the resume cover letter advice? Lots of times people say they have but then when I look at their stuff, they haven’t. If you want to email me what you’re using, I’d be glad to give you a quick opinion on whether the materials might be part of the issue. If they’re not, and you’ve been using them for a while, that’s useful info to factor in to your broader question here.)

      1. Ali*

        Well I guess part of it is my general impatience. Going back, I’d say it’s only been about 2-3 months and my job search has been on and off because of vacations, not finding a lot of openings sometimes, etc. I had one phone interview before my vacation, but it didn’t work out. (I decided I wasn’t interested in the job after the initial conversation anyway.) But other than that one interview, that’s it. Before I had my resume reviewed, I got plenty of “You were great, but…” type of feedback.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          So 2-3 months since perfecting your materials? Roughly how many jobs do you think you’ve applied for in that time (considering it was on and off)? Basically, what I’m going here for is, “how much of a chance have you given the new materials”? It sounds like it might not have been enough yet, but more data on that will be more conclusive.

          But yeah, if it’s just general impatience, that’s different than “I can’t get a job in this field.” It might be “I don’t have the patience to get a job in this field,” which is legitimate, but you’d want to be clear in your own mind about which it is.

          1. Ali*

            I don’t have the exact number of how many jobs I’ve applied for. In one of my first job searches out of school, I kept a spreadsheet of where I applied, the date and the response from the employer.

            That said, it’s possible that I haven’t given things enough of a chance. I’ll try to backtrack and put a count together, or at least start fresh and track every application from now on to see if I can see a pattern. I just feel a little restless with how hard it is to job search, especially in a crowded field.

            Thanks for helping (again!).

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I don’t think you need an exact count — but a rough idea is useful. If it’s only been a handful of jobs, that would point toward it not being a conclusive message that the field won’t have you. If it’s tons and tons of jobs (and it had been a bit longer — 2-3 months is nothing), then hell, there could be something to it (as is always the case with super competitive fields).

              Two things I would do now: (1) Step up the job search; sounds like it’s been sporadic, despite your frustration, and (2) Start thinking about what you’d do if you did change fields, and start applying for those jobs too. You don’t have to take them if you get offers, but options never hurt.

              1. Ali*

                I will do these things. I admit my job search activity could be more frequent. If I think of further questions, I will be sure to e-mail.

    3. unemplaylist*

      Hi Ali, just to give you a bit of perspective, I am an experienced communications person and I’ve been looking, hard, for over a year. So I think 2-3 months is too soon to call it quits. In fact, for whatever reason, I didn’t get many interviews for the first few months of my search, but then things kicked into gear, around October-November of last year, and I’ve had a pretty steady stream of interviews since then — about 15 interviews, which I think is a lot for that time period. And yet, still not job. Hang in there. It is a highly competitive field, no doubt, but I am freelancing to help pay the bills and have no interest in changing careers!

    4. NZ Muse*

      For me it was looking around and realising there were literally no other journalism jobs in the entire country that I wanted to do – none excited me. That was the main thing.

      I was fortunate in that the first and only job I interviewed for outside of journalism, I got. Digital content (beyond journalism) is going off, and where I am there aren’t a TON of people doing it, or at least not well.

      So as you can see, living in a tiny country has been both a bad and good thing for me…

    5. Jen RO*

      This is not helping you, with me being in a different country and all, but we are dying for some journalists or editors to apply to our technical writer positions… we just managed to hire one, but we have 3 more open positions and no hope in sight. Ugh.

    6. jesicka309*

      Hi Ali,
      I transitioned out of a technical media role (commercials) after a log time studying/getting Alison’s help with cover letters etc, and ended up in a marketing/planning role for a national company (Australia). There are plenty of related fields where you still get to work with media, and use y our skills, just in different ways.
      Some avenues that might be worth exploring:
      -Go client side. Internal comms, PR specialists, and a whole heap of media planning/buying functions could align with your previous journo skills pretty well. Still get to write every single day, but for a different audience.
      -Go agency side. Particularly a PR agency, but any could be good (media, creative eg. copy writers, digital etc). They love people who are good at both client interactions and can write a concise, brief response.
      -Marketing. It’s where I found my feet. Consider doing a class or two in marketing – I originally wanted to be a journalist, but watched the economy bottom out and switched after two classes. I’d definitely recommend marketing to any English/comms grad who is struggling to find work in that field. Varied work, use my comms skills every day, but not quite as competitive as journalism as almost every company has some sort of marketing department, but there are only limited media outlets to support a journalist. So look at some fields that are related, but not the same, as your current field.
      :) Good luck!

  6. A Minion*

    I posted this in the wrong thread. :( But it’s here now, so I hope you guys can give me some insight! :)
    I recently applied for a position and, since I’m currently employed, I answered “no” to the question of whether they could contact my current employer. However, after I had already applied, my manager actually came to my office and showed me the ad in the paper for this position. She doesn’t know that I have already applied, but she saw that it was something I was well qualified for and it pays quite a bit more than I’m making. She was very kind and reassured me that she doesn’t want me to leave, but she felt as a friend she should at least let me know the position was open in case I wanted to apply especially since it pays so much more and I am unlikely to earn that here in the foreseeable future. So, since she actually came to me and encouraged me to apply, there is now no reason the company I applied with shouldn’t contact my current employer. Would it be crazy to e-mail HR there and change my answer to that question? Or should I just wait and mention it in an interview if they call me?

    2. Elysian*

      I would wait and mention it later, like in the interview. I actually think its a great selling point for you to say “After I applied, my boss actually saw this job and suggested it to me because she thought it would be a great fit. I’m sure she wouldn’t mind if you called her to talk about my qualifications.” Its also really great that your current boss is looking out for your career growth – if we could all be so lucky!

      1. JMegan*

        Agreed, what a great thing for your boss to do! And I also agree that you don’t need to make a second contact with the company you’re applying to. Wait until you get an interview and bring it up then. Good luck!

    3. Joey*

      Wait. Its pointless to bring it up unless they plan on calling references. Most only do that for in person interviews.

    4. BRR*

      I don’t feel by answering no that you altered the status of your candidacy. I second Elysian that it might look better later but at this stage it would not make a difference.

      1. A Minion*

        Thanks for the replies! You’re all right, of course. I knew that…but when you’re job hunting sometimes you think of every little thing that may disqualify you and then agonize over whether or not you should have answered something differently and if it would make a difference. At least I do. So I shall wait. But don’t worry…there are lots of other little things I can agonize over! :)

        1. BRR*

          It’s good to get an outside opinion, job hunting messes with people’s decision making process. Good luck!

  7. Kelly O*

    Happy Friday y’all.

    My struggle over the decision to stay or go at “New” Job has been made. The company is closing down our location, and our last operation (aviation) will be November 30. Those of us in the office will have work until sometime in December.

    This actually works out timing-wise with the New Job I’ve got lined up that wouldn’t start until January for budgetary reasons.

    Now to end strong and get this mess cleaned up before we close down.

    5. danr*

      On one hand, having to work the transition is sad and if you’re lucky, the last week or so will just be cleaning up the odds and ends (btdt). On the other hand, having a new job ready and waiting is awesome. Good luck on both ends.

  8. Kristina*

    Has anyone ever run into someone who fired you or worked at the same office you were fired from? What happened? Was it awkward?

    1. Jennifer*

      Oh, I did! Years ago we interviewed a woman for a position. She was nice, but (a) she had lost her previous job for “not being a good fit,” (b) she answered a question about her accuracy of typing by talking about how accurate she was with crochet, and (c) I just got the crazy vibe. I said so, she didn’t get hired. However, she applied in another area of my work (different office) and got hired. I didn’t really see her on a regular basis, but six months later I’ve been out on FMLA leave and ran into her in a store and found out she hadn’t made it through probation. Awkward, yes, but how was I to know when I never saw her? I’ve never asked anyone there at the time what happened though.

    2. MT*

      I once fired an hourly employee for theft. Hate to say it, but lots of them were doing it and they were the first one we caught, so we had to use them as a sacrificial lamb. 2 weeks later he had a job pumping gas at the gas station where I always went. State law, you couldn’t pump your own gas. He would pump my gas at least once a month while I was on the way to work. It was awkward to say the least.

    3. Hillary*

      Not only was she fired, but I moved into her role. And she had to know, because her boyfriend (now husband) worked there too.

      I see her occasionally at industry events. It’s not particularly awkward, but we don’t seek each other out.

      1. fposte*

        Same with me. Though I think we’re answering the opposite of what Kristina was asking–I think she’s looking for the viewpoint of the former employee.

      2. Amanda*

        Ditto to this. I moved into the role of someone who was…let’s not say fired, but rather the writing on the wall was made very explicit and she moved on. It’s a small town, we see each other sometimes. I find it awkward; I’m not sure she does. (Or at least she hides it very well.)

    4. JMegan*

      Ha. After I was fired from a previous job, I found myself interviewing for a new job almost right away – less than a month later. Only problem was, NewJob *insisted* on talking to my most recent manager, and wouldn’t proceed with the recruitment without it. So I had to email the manager who had fired me three weeks earlier, explain the situation, and ask her for a reference. Awkward doesn’t even begin to describe it!

      The good news is, it worked out really well. OldManager was actually happy to give me a reference, and in fact we have a better relationship now than we did when we were working together.

      1. anonintheuk*

        I occasionally run into the person whose behaviour stressed me so much it contributed to a rheumatoid flare, which in turn led to my being Reduced in Force.
        I acknowledge her existence, but that’s it. One of my other co-workers apparently had a dream that she (our mutual stress source) was being guillotined for crimes against the state, and concluded mid-dream that that was fair enough.

        2. Labratnomore*

          I had a person that should have been fired from my first job out of college, he was just horrible overall, I cannot even explain how horrible he was at the job but I couldn’t trust him to do even the simplest task correctly. He is the reason I left that job, well maybe more because our supervisor was too nice to ever fire anyone, but I could not stand to work with him anymore! I passed him in the hall at my current employer when he was interviewing for a job here. I went straight to the hiring manager later that day and told him not to hire that guy. He just kind of looked at me and said “yep I figured that out already”.

    5. Bea W*

      No, but on a similarly awkward (or more so), I worked with a guy who was fired for cause and then committed suicide after getting home that day. We attended the service, and it was awkward, particularly because things were said that seemed to imply he or his family (or both) blamed us for his death. No one was comfortable enough to go back to the home with the family for the usual post-service food. It was just really awkward and painful. I think we all just wanted to slink into a hole.

    6. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I wasn’t fired so much as pointedly not re-hired, so this is only a little similar. It was a little awkward at first, and a lot of people kept trying to ask me how I was doing and if I was OK (not helpful). However, once I got a new job and moved on, it got a lot easier. I still see the same people, but now that I’m not an object of pity anymore it’s much better :)

    7. EA*

      Not running into, but a local news station had a story yesterday about a former co-worker who was arrested for marijuana possession … Everyone on our team had a good laugh when we saw that, and basically a “Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me” reaction.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      My first boss fired me. She was so busy being my friend she forgot to be my boss, and tbh, I really, really needed her to be a boss to me. I was trying to be a good worker but some how I made too many wrong choices.

      I ran into her years later. She came into my work place! Oh boy, I thought. Then I decided “No, this is old and over. I basically liked her as a person before I understood the full situation. I will just go back to thinking warmly of her as a person.” The conversation went surprisingly well considering everything. She had lots of family type problems so I was able to offer empathy there. Then she said she was moving, so I wished her well with that. After about 20 minutes she left.
      It felt good just to set that whole ugly situation to one side.

      Fast forward, years later I had to fire someone. I was kind of concerned that he might throw a punch. He could throw other things…. But I fired him and then years went by. One day, he, too, came into my work place. I don’t know if he even recognized me or not. However, he was pleasant and conversational so I just copied his tone. He completed his business transaction and left. No problems.

      I have run into people that I worked with, in the grocery store, for example. I do not mind saying, I saw them in the frozen food aisle and skipped over to the bread aisle to avoid any conversation. I can do the conversations if need be, but sometimes I just prefer to keep my distance and go about my day. That has more to do with the person than with anything that happened on the job.

      Not sure what kinds of clues/answers you are looking for here. But my best thought is if you run into someone that you fired or who fired you- try to put it in as peaceful a place as you can. Or head for the bread aisle.

    9. Rin*

      I was fired from one place, and then I got my husband a job there about 3 years later. Any time I had to drop something off for him, I felt kind of awkward, like I wasn’t supposed to be there. There were a lot of new people there who didn’t know me, too, but I definitely felt paranoid about who wanted me gone and what they thought of me randomly showing up.

    10. Kelly L.*

      I fired a student worker once and then ended up working with her as a peer at my moonlighting job. It was…odd at first, but quietly odd. A few months later, we got along fine.

    11. Labratnomore*

      Not me, but we had a temp. at my current job that was let go. He went on to get a job elsewhere, then our manager got hired as the manager at his new company about a year later. The temp. is married to one of our co-workers so I asked her about how that went and she said he was a little nervious at first, but once he got there it all worked out fine. He was let go from here more because of “right fit” issues and they knew they would never hire him on full time rather than any specific issues, so that helped I am sure.

    12. Manager Anonymous*

      oh yes, awkward for both sides. I ran into the ex employee who I fired at an entertainment venue. Waved, said hi, moved on. Its a small town. We are going to run into each other from time to time.

      on the other hand, I see my old boss from 20 years ago who fired me. (with excellent cause) twice yearly at conferences. I take the opportunity to catch up with him and what we are up to..(the first time I just apologized for being such a crappy employee and putting him in the position to have to fire me)

    13. Elizabeth*

      Sort of, but in reverse. While at OldJob, I ran into someone who was fired while on a business lunch. Fired might be a harsh word, as it wasn’t necessarily her performance, but just that OldJob (a new company) hired her, then realized in hindsight they weren’t at a point in their development where they were ready for someone in her position. (OldJob was a bit of a mess, hence why NewJob happened.)

      Yes, it was awkward. Luckily, it was just in passing, and we didn’t have much time to do anything other than exchange smiles and a polite hello.

    14. Sunshine on the water*

      Yes! I ran into 2 different people at different times after being fired. One of them was a guy who sat in as a peer during my interview. The look on his face was almost comical! I actually felt sorry for him. It was awkward for a moment and then I decided to try to just smile and not let it bother me. The guy wouldn’t look at me after the first glance which irritated me a little because I was trying to be mature about the whole thing. The other person I ran into smiled and said hi and acted like nothing was odd.

    15. Waiting Patiently*

      I was fired from a place in 2000 …small town. The place wasn’t that great. They had recently changed management. I had left, big boss asked me to come back, big boss had a big birthday party for me, –but the admin and I were not the best of friends–she did everything to exclude and overwork me like crazy then blamed me for audits not being completed…yada…yada. I was exhausted, young and had no clue. Anyway luckily I had documented stuff, I don’t know why specifically –I just began documenting stuff. I filed for unemployment and substantiated my case and by the end of the interview with her on the other end— she said she was resigning her position.
      Fast forward to about 2 years ago, I ran into her while out shopping. It wasn’t that awkward for me. She spoke. I spoke. But it was definitely one of those “hey, I know you— wait oh yeah you fired me..” Anyway that’s water beneath the bridge now.

    16. Oceandusk*

      This happened to me just last month. I was fired about a year ago, but managed (thanks to AAM!) after several months to find another job in my field. I was sent to a national conference and ran into both the person who fired me and several former co-workers. It started off a little awkward, but the stories everyone told me (“since you’ve been gone, X is still happening and Y is going on and …”) made me realize that it’s still the exact same toxic place it had been when I left. The place I am now is (so far, three months in) supportive and warm and appreciative. I wished (and wish) everyone well.

      A couple weeks after we were all done with conference, the person who fired me emailed me for a favor, so I guess I really did smooth things.

  9. A Jane*

    Does anyone have any advice on managing very technical projects for a new-ish PM?

    I’ve managed application development projects before, but never had to get into the really nitty-gritty of the tech side. Just knowing an integration from here to there was enough. Now I’m managing database admins, ETLs, foundational services, etc.

    1. Eliza Jane*

      If you’re struggling to understand the space or the people you’re managing, own up to it and ask them for input.

      Ask them what good/bad outcomes look like to them.

      If you ask for their technical opinion about timelines/risks/manpower, don’t second-guess them or override them without strong technical evidence.

      Figure out what the customer (whoever you’re delivering the project to) cares about, and focus on that. Keep your team informed about real goals. Focus on the “what” and the “when” and trust the tech side to make decisions about “how”.

    2. MisterPickle*

      I do this kind of thing as my day job.

      It’s important to learn as much of the tech as quickly as possible, lest you not be taken seriously by the people you are managing.

      One thing I’ll often do is, given Project X, figure out who the ‘natural’ technical leader is in the group, and make them my ‘sergeant’. Alas, sometimes this person does not exist. But if they do exist, and if you can establish a good relationship with them right from the start, you can set up one-on-one meetings with them to go over project goals etc, which is also an opportunity for you to learn and ask questions. And this person can be an invaluable resource in getting a project moving quickly, if you ask their advice, listen to them, and back them up.

      I don’t mean this as a substitute for learning the tech on your own. But it can give you some time to learn. I have many years of experience with my company and in my field, and I’m often paired with younger employees, and often there is a natural exchange where I’ll pick up on new tech while mentoring the young’uns with how to get things done in the corporate environment.

    3. A Non*

      Ask lots of questions! Most tech people are happy to talk about what they do, and will go on for a while once they realize they’ve got an appreciative audience.

      1. Treena Kravm*

        Ask the questions, yes, but recognize the point where the question you’re asking is something you should have learned months ago. They’ll go on for a while because they have to to explain properly, but it’s not a fun task (according to Husband). Hint: if they say “This is really something you should know,” that usually means they’re almost at their breaking point because you’re not picking it up fast enough.

  10. Diet Coke Addict*

    On the good side, I had an interview this week! On the bad side, it was a wreck—it lasted nine minutes from start to finish, one interviewer asked me a bunch of random questions (“did you see that documentary on the Titanic?” “What do you think will happen in the upcoming elections?”) and when at the end of the interview they asked if I had any questions, I got to ask one (“What is your timeline going forward?” “One week.”) before they stood up, shook my hand, and ushered me out.

    I’ll spend my weekend on more job applications, even though it’s beyond dissatisfying to finally receive an interview and have it be a complete mess. The rest of my time spent at work has been re-training our new employee (who hasn’t made any progress with the actual processes of the job in the six weeks she’s been here, but does keep going to my boss with new business suggestions like “Why don’t we do fax marketing?”) and doing the entire job of our admin person, who is out all week.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Boo to them for missing an opportunity to actually get to know a candidate! Just think of it as even more practice for the next one!

    2. Squirrel!*

      A 9-minute interview? That sounds crazy! What was the position for? Documentary viewer and election forecaster?

    3. Mints*

      I also had a ridiculously short interview this week. I applied for a cordinator role in an industry I don’t know much about, but the duties were all administrative (which I’m doing) so I thought it was fine. The phone screen focused on my skills, what software I use, how much scheduling I do. But the in person interview (with a different person) was painful. He said like five times that the person who used to have this role did really well because she had a background in TheIndustry. I was like “Why did you even bring me in…?” That was the first time I really felt like an interview wad a waste of time.
      Ugh. I didn’t time it, but would be unsurprised if it was less than 15 minutes
      Sympathies.

    4. M. in Austin!*

      What the heck? That is truly bizarre. Did they ask you anything job related?

      Bleh! Good luck job hunting!

      1. Diet Coke Addict*

        Two things: “Do you like to keep busy?” and “Are you detail-oriented?” Also, “When can you start?”

        It was overshadowed by the questions like “What did you think of that Titanic documentary? Have you ever bee n to the museum in Halifax? What did you think of it?”

          1. Diet Coke Addict*

            I’m not, which is the weirdest thing, although I used to live about five hours away from Halifax.

    5. OriginalYup*

      I just wanted to jump in and say that I so empathize on this: “re-training our new employee (who hasn’t made any progress with the actual processes of the job in the six weeks she’s been here, but does keep going to my boss with new business suggestions like “Why don’t we do fax marketing?”)”

      That isht drives me bananas. If you can’t safely work a lighter, I am not giving you a flamethrower, my friend. GAH.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        I wonder if sometimes people who are struggling with their responsibilities try to come up with new business suggestions in an effort to make themselves look better since they know they’re not succeeding in some other areas. Of course, a more effective way to accomplish this would be to ask for (and then take) feedback on how you could improve in your existing duties!

    6. A Minion*

      I had an interview like that once. Last year. I was interviewed by a panel that consisted of three women. They took turns asking me the standard interview questions, only they didn’t seem really interested in my answers. As soon as I was finished with one answer, the next questioner would jump in. It went on like that for, probably, about fifteen minutes. I asked a couple of questions, to which I got very quick answers, then before I could ask anything else, one of them jumped up, thanked me for coming and walked me out.
      I got a call the very next day, first thing in the morning, to tell me they’d chosen an internal candidate. Suddenly it all made sense. LOL I’m guessing they had already decided to promote the internal candidate but had to interview a certain number of people. At least the rejection call was very nice and she encouraged me to keep trying.
      Fortunately, they didn’t ask my opinion on any Titanic documentaries…or maybe unfortunately. I’ve seen a lot of those, so maybe I could have impressed them with my Titanic knowledge. Too bad, really.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Yeah, I’ve unfortunately had interviews that lasted less than ten minutes myself. Once I met with a recruiter at an agency and he asked me for a copy of my resume and directed me to a seat. My behind was about to hit the chair and he goes “thanks for coming in, we’ll be in touch.” I got up and he ushered me out. I don’t even think I was given 30 seconds. :)

  11. AdminAnon*

    There was a discussion in the comments on Wednesday’s post about the HR person and the new hire list about creating email folders/rules, etc and it occurred to me that I am probably not making the best use of my system’s capabilities. I know this was discussed at some point near the end of 2013 as well, but I’m curious–what are some of the best ways you have found to use Outlook to manage various projects/Boards/Advisory Boards/committees/etc? What rules or folders are the most useful and how do you use them–do you direct messages to folders automatically or do you sort through them manually? Are there any tricks you can share?
    I went through a period in early 2014 (not long after the last discussion) where I zeroed out my inbox daily, but lately it’s just a mess. I receive anywhere from 50-100 emails per day and very few of them are junk. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance! :)

    1. Elysian*

      I like the feeling of a clean inbox, so I have a separate folder where I store my “to do” or “follow up” emails. This way I can zero out my inbox and not miss anything new, but I also have easy access to stuff I probably need to reference later. It also serves as a decent double-check on my actual to-do list. It would probably be redundant for some people, but it works really well for me.

    2. danr*

      One of the neat things about Outlook is that a message can be sent to more than one folder depending on the criteria used. So you can set up rules to filter base on “From” and on Project name and on whatever else. You can tag emails for followup with reminders and you can color code mail folders if you work that way. Rule 1 should be to never delete a message, but move it somewhere out of the inbox. Deletions can take place later if needed.

    3. Sandra Dee*

      I try to keep my inbox fairly clean as well. I have 5 folders where I dump things and take care of as I am able: To Do (requires action from me), File (informational only), Waiting (missing critical info before I can proceed), Meeting Requests (I review when I have time, some are informational, some I have to be at), and Follow-up. When I am going between meeting, usually on the shuttle between buildings, I review my email on my phone, and dump them in the appropriate location, and work the folders as soon as I can. I have used this method for several years, and fewer things have fallen through the cracks.

    4. Renee*

      I color code my incoming email using the category function. I assign a function to each color. Red is “to do.” Purple is “pending for response.” Blue is “pending for follow up.” I have one for shipping, one for invoicing, etc. Over time I’ve memorized what each color means and I can instantly assess my workload. I can also sort and handle similar tasks at the same time — like invoicing multiple customers. Once the subject of the email has been dealt with or the situation is over, I put it away into a Outlook folder or I delete it. My inbox contains only things that need to be dealt with or are immediately pending. I color code my email as soon as I read it so that I don’t have to re-read to know that it contains a task for me to do (i.e., coded “red”). If I had a bigger workload or the email volume you do, I’d probably have an “urgent” color too.

      Email lists that are informational only have rules that send them into another folder for reading when I have less urgent matters at hand.

  12. BostonBaby*

    Hey Guys, so my work buddy just got fired. I feel so bad and don’t really know how to deal. From what I can see, it looks like it was mostly a personality conflict as my buddy and our supervisor don’t get along and are known to butt heads, but from what I can see they are mostly good at their job. Obviously I don’t know much of the details and gossip has already begun to swirl. My question is where should I go from here about approaching him?

    I’m new to the workforce and have never know someone fired so it’s all new to me. Should I mention it when I see him? Not? Offer to buy him lunch and let him vent if he wants to? Me and some others were thinking of getting together and getting him a nice bottle of beer that he likes.

    Plus I am now going into CYA mode as it looks like his firing was kinda shady. One of my co-workers mentioned talking to our union rep about how it went down, but I’ve never had a union before so I don’t know what that will help or hurt.

    1. Colette*

      My advice:
      – contact him soon, maybe something like “I’m sorry, how are you doing?”
      – leave it up to him to discuss what happened (or not), but if you find it’s poisoning your thoughts about your job, it’s OK to take a step back and ask to focus on other things.

    2. Jennifer*

      Do you have his contact info outside of work? Did you hang out with him outside of work?

      You have my sympathies, been there done this this year, pretty much the same situation too.

      1. BostonBaby*

        I haven’t hung out with him outside of work , but he is the type of person I’d like to be friends with. It is just so weird because he was just comforting me a few weeks ago about I was f-ing up in my job because of my depressing affecting me stronger than usual and he gave me some pretty great tips and was a great sounding board. It just sucks all around right now.

    3. Emma*

      As someone who was fired, I really appreciated people reaching out to me to ask how I was and say they wanted to stay in touch. I didn’t want to talk about the circumstances of my leaving, but I really appreciated them for caring. Get in touch with him if you can, he’ll appreciate it.

      1. HAnon*

        +1 agree. I was dismissed from a job once (still don’t know why because they didn’t tell me) and when I ran into former coworkers, it was super awkward. I’m thinking maybe the crazy former boss had said something to them, because when I saw some of my coworkers at a later date, they wouldn’t make eye contact with me and hurried past. It was super awkward. This person has just lost part of his support network and routine, so please be kind and reach out to him (when the time is right).

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I’m going to vote opposite everyone else: Do Not make a big deal about asking how they are, expressing concern, etc. An appreciation/farewell gift might be nice, and maybe ask once, but after a while my experience was that it gets tedious to always be treated like a delicate flower of emotion just because of a job status change. Maybe just a ‘Hey man, I’ll miss you! Let’s keep in touch.’

    5. Kinrowan*

      I am dealing with an issue where a committee is divided so I wanted to see what you guys thought. We have to review our junior people annually (it’s a committee review) and it is always sometime in September. This year, they all got a message a few weeks ago that they should have their materials ready because the committee was meeting in a few weeks. They were not told a date, but then one person got in trouble because their material was not ready and the committee is meeting. I thought it was unfair to penalize this person because there was no date and I knew they had been working on their stuff but they thought they had more time. I suggested that in the future it would be easier to just give them a deadline (even if it is a made up one because we don’t know when the committee will meet exactly) so this doesn’t happen. I got a lot, a LOT, of push-back that we were hand-feeding them and they should know to be ready. While they should, they are not just doing nothing, so I can see how if you think you have more time, you will take more time to get things ready. In my experience actually a deadline is much easier for everyone, me as a manager and my staff, it establishes priorities and if it is not followed there is something concrete to talk about. Anyway, I am feeling like I am from another planet right now, so what do you all think?

      3. Not So NewReader*

        If the majority thinks deadlines are foolish there is not much you are going to be able to do about that thinking.
        However, as a supervisor I would want to protect my own people. Your situation sounds like they can plan for certain that they will need their materials together sometime in September. So set an earlier date for your own folks. The end of August? September 5th? Whatever makes sense in your setting. Tell your folks “be ready by X date, the review will take place sometime after that. But be ready by X date, so you don’t get caught short.”

    6. CTO*

      It would be nice to get in touch, let him know you miss him, and thank him for the ways that he was a good coworker. If you can help his job search, like by offering to be a reference or making some connections, do so. He might never take you up on the offer but he’ll appreciate the gesture.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I went after a friend who got fired- went to see her and so on. Long story short she said that because of our friendship at least one good thing came out of that sucky job.

      I say go ahead and give him a call/visit. Start out by saying “hey it sucks at work without ya, wanted you to know that some of us miss you”, and go from there.

    8. Kbreezy*

      Yep, as a person who was fired a few months ago, I appreciated co-workers reaching out with a “Hey, thinking of you and am available if you want to grab a drink or coffee anytime”. It was a nice gesture that let me know my team missed me but also let me set the timeline for future hangouts (if any).

  13. Kate*

    I’m assuming this has been asked before but how do people feel about filler jobs on resumes. My mother left a job after being there for 23 years 10 months ago and has been doing a side job since then. I’m assuming it is better to put the side job on the resume so she doesn’t have a gap even though it isn’t connected to her field.

    1. AdminAnon*

      That is a situation where “relevant experience” and “other experience” sections can be helpful. That’s what I used for my 10 month stint at Barnes & Noble between my AmeriCorps year and my current position.

    2. Trixie*

      Absolutely. I think it shows flexibility since it’s not connected with her field, ability to learn new skills, working outside comfort zone since its a new company/coworkers, and perhaps most importantly, staying active.

      1. Trixie*

        Or I can see leaving it off if its a small gap because they’re just so common these days. But if its not horrible and something that illustrates you have activities outside your main FT job, I’d consider keeping on. Kind of like volunteer work.

  14. Emma*

    Can anyone give me advice on how to get back into the workforce and getting a job after a bad situation?

    I had a nervous breakdown after 2 years in a call center complaints department and was fired after one day I couldn’t handle the abuse anymore and cried in the fire escape for an hour before they found me. I don’t have any references obviously, I have been out of work for 10 months now (I’m 26) and am worried my whole career is in the toilet. I’m going to go back to law school in fall 2017 because I passed the LSAT with a really good score and need a job o save, but I’m worried no one will touch me now.

    Help?

    1. ClaireS*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. Mental health issues can be so serious and the stigma around them still stinks.

      But, the good news is that in this job market 10 months out of work isn’t a big red flag. My partner was unemployed for over a year and he’s recently landed a great job in his field. My suggestion is to follow all of Allison’s other job search advise: network, update your resume and cover letter, volunteer and get involved (this is what helped my partner land the job).

      Also, practice some self care. Job searching is incredibly draining on your mental reserves. Try to build a support system (maybe including a therapist) so you don’t get dragged down into the depths again.

      1. Emma*

        I’m all but recovered from my mental health issues for now, my therapist said it was really caused by being in such an unhappy work situation and being removed from it has done me wonders. I’ve done everything I can do, but nothing is working, maybe it’s just sadly because the job market is so dire right now.

    3. Elysian*

      I hope someone can help you with your immediate problem, but I just wanted to put in a plug about being thoughtful about going to law school. It’s great for some people, and if you know you’ll enjoy it and you can get into a great school (or can go for free) that’s awesome. But the unemployment rate for new lawyers is obscenely high and most people take on a lot of debt to go to law school thinking that things will be easier when they graduate. I promise they aren’t easier.

      1. Emma*

        Yeah, I’m a little aware it’s not always great, but it has actually been my dream to go to law school since I was 14, so it’s less of a ‘reaction’ to what happened and more of a ‘might as well follow my dream while I’m still young’. I was at the call center to save some money, somehow ended up there longer than I wanted to. While I’m not proud of being fired and how hard it will be to get back on track now, maybe in a way, getting fired was a favour.

        1. Elysian*

          Please don’t put yourself in $200,000 worth of debt with only a 50% (average!!!) chance of being employed to follow a childhood dream (for a job you might not like) without a ton more research. LeGal’s advice below is really, really good. I second it.

        2. Ms. Anonymity*

          Do a Google search about what to say in an interview about being fired. I found that information extremely helpful. I also rehearsed my answers to those difficult questions so I wouldn’t become flustered or emotional during and interview.
          I would also think long and hard about pursing a degree in law if the job prospects upon graduating aren’t great. I understand it’s your dream, but it may be crushing to put in all that work and not have it pay off in any real way. Maybe you could do something else that would still be related to the field that’s more sought after?
          Best of luck!

          1. Trixie*

            +1 Practice, practice and then practice some more until discussing it (when appropriate) becomes as comfortable as talking about anything else. Not only will you feel/sound more confident, it will show how much you’ve learned and grown from the experience.

          2. Emma*

            Maybe! I think at this stage it’s hard to know what else I want to do because it’s all I’ve ever considered doing for over a decade. I just don’t know what I want. It’s such a cop out answer I know, but it’s stressful.

            1. Trixie*

              I don’t think its a cop-out answer at all, and agree its incredibly stressful considering something other than you’ve planned on for so long. I second someone else’s suggestion (on other post about self-evaluations) to peruse The Confidence Code by Katty Kay. Not exactly the same situation but I think circles back to an overall question of confidence. I’d tackle this for some perspective before deciding whether or not the law is for you. And please keep in mind adults of all ages switch fields all the time for a variety of reasons, and come out alright on the other side. Whatever form or shape it comes, change can just be scary.

    4. The LeGal*

      If you are thinking about being a lawyer, I highly recommend being a paralegal or working in a law office for a little while. You might get a chance there. Plus, it makes sense for two reasons: (i) you’ll really get a feel for the field and can determine if the field is right for you. There’s TONS of stress. Law is an area where you deal w/ people’s problems, and complaints. The stress is amazing, and the pressure is unreal. People want you to get them out of tough situations, and it’s not easy. It reminds me, at times, of the same kind of complaint pressure that you experienced in a call center. Before you invest that kind of money in an education, make sure it’s for you; and (ii) a major part of being a lawyer is precedent and working for a while in the field will help you build up your knowledge base. Also, I highly recommend looking at the job market for lawyers. Entry-level jobs are super difficult to find. Make sure that the law is your absolute passion before you go to law school – and even then you will still need to face the reality that only a few get the highest paying jobs and that paying back your education is a beast.

      1. MJH*

        This. All of this. My husband’s dream has always been to be a lawyer, and now he is one! Yay! He works as an Assistant District Attorney, and he loves it. But it is hard, and people are mean, and he has to deal with recalcitrant witnesses and difficult cops and all kinds of crap. He still loves it, but it is tough.

        He makes about $49K a year. His loans are well over $100K, and he’s not even covering the interest at this point. For us, it’s worth it because he loves what he does and is living his dream (but many of his colleagues say if they had it to do over again, they’d do something else.)

        If you can score some kind of scholarship, by all means, do whatever you can to make that happen, because the debt is horrific.

        1. Canuck*

          ….$49K per year as a lawyer??? Holy smokes, that seems so low. In my city (Vancouver), first year lawyers average around $75K/year (note, that’s actual lawyers who have finished articling and passed the bar). Now, Vancouver is an expensive city, but still!

      2. SBL*

        I agree with this. A friend of mine became a paralegal to see how he liked law…turns out he did and is now a lawyer.

          1. Elysian*

            Agreed! I hope you find what works for you and what makes you happy – those are the most important things, and its fabulous if you can be open to finding those things, especially in unexpected places.

      4. Squirrel!*

        I think your point about it being a high-pressure career is a fair one.

        Emma, if you had a nervous breakdown from working in a call center, what do you think your reaction might be when you are a lawyer and responsible for hugely-important cases? You could be the difference between someone losing their children to the government (or to an ex-partner) or not, someone going to prison for life or not, someone losing all of their assets or not, etc. A call center would be nothing compared to many situations faced my attorneys every day. Not to mention that you would probably be dealing with abusive / unhelpful / mean clients, police officers, witnesses, etc. I would suggest taking an honest look at yourself and reallying thinking about if you can handle something like this. Your mental health and well-being is more important than following a childhood dream that may or may not wreck your sanity.

        1. AnonyMouse*

          It is a high pressure career, but it’s also very possible to struggle with mental health problems for a while and then get them fully under control and never have the same issues again. A close childhood friend of mine had serious anxiety issues when we were growing up, and I never would have thought she’d do well in a high pressure job at the time. But she got treatment after leaving home, no longer struggles with anxiety, and now has a very successful and *very* demanding career that she’s totally rocking. Law school can be a really bad choice for some people for the reasons other posters have mentioned, and law can definitely be too stressful for a lot of people. But Emma, if you truly feel your anxiety issues are under control, you may well be able to deal with it :)

        2. anon attorney*

          Maybe I am just lucky but I don’t deal very often with abusive people. If a client of my firm was abusive, they would very shortly be a former client, and that is true of everywhere i have worked. I’m not paid to be shouted at by people, other than the occasional judge (which is rare but has to just be sucked up).

          Yes, the job involves lot of responsibility but it’s normally at a level appropriate to experience. We’re not all leading capital murder trials or billion dollar mergers. I can truly say that being an attorney is a hell of a lot less stressful than being a government employee with a bullying boss, which used to be my life and thankfully no longer is.

          Just being another data point 😃

    5. Snoopy*

      I’m sorry to hear about your previous experience :(

      but

      congratulations on your LSAT score! <(-.–.-)> <(-.-<)

      I think, as long as you are confident in yourself now – remember you were in a fairly extreme situation – and you have a clear idea of what you can handle, you will be fine. On your application put an emphasis on your scores, roles where you have excelled and even achievements in the role above.

      And personally, your previous employer sucks for not having an employee care system/policy (?) to ensure they are ok after taking complaints (and sometimes abuse) all day.

    6. AdminAnon*

      Can you start volunteering with an organization that is in or similar to your desired field? That can be a great way to get experience, find references, and build your network. Obviously that won’t help with the financial situation, but the long term gain could be worthwhile. Good luck!

    7. C Average*

      OK, I’m going to give you some real talk here.

      Your experience at the call center and the aftermath sounds awful. I hope you are taking some time to heal and that you have the resources to take care of yourself while you ponder your next move.

      First off, law school itself can feel like an abusive environment. I’ve worked retail and been in difficult consumer-facing interactions; I also attended law school for a year and endured arrogant professors’ interpretation of the Socratic method. Honestly, both experiences put me in nervous-breakdown territory. Law school can be a very demoralizing place if you don’t come in mentally healthy and with an excess of confidence. The teaching method, the grading and ranking process, the cutthroat competition among classmates . . . it’s tough. There aren’t any Atticus Finch moments in law school.

      Secondly, when you’re looking at law schools, look at attrition statistics. I know it’s a downer, but real people make up that statistic. I’ll fess up. I was that statistic. I got some of the best LSAT scores in my class, I worked really hard in my classes, and I flunked out of law school. I still don’t entirely know what I did wrong. I’m smart, hard-working, and articulate, and I’ve gone on to a successful career, and there’s nothing obviously not-lawyer-material about me. The same is true of my classmates who didn’t make the cut. We all left law school in heavy debt, without a degree, and with our confidence shattered. This does happen. So when you think about law school, look at that statistic and ask yourself, “Do I want this enough to spend that money and take that risk?”

      Job-searching is an uncertain, anxiety-making process, but don’t kid yourself: so is law school.

      1. The LeGal*

        Your advice about attrition rates is spot on. I would also look at the curve too. If the CGPA is curved at a D-grade, a lot of students will be put out for academic reasons. On the other hand, if the curve is higher (around a B-grade) then you have more of a chance of staying in academically and leaving on your own accord. I am so sorry that you had that kind of law school experience. If it’s any consolation, one of the brightest people I know left law school under the same academic circumstances. It’s certainly not a measure of your intelligence, success, or academic / professional abilities – although it can be incredibly difficult to go through.

        1. C Average*

          It turned out to be probably the best catalyst for change I’ve ever experienced, so I can’t honestly say I regret it.

          After tucking my tail between my legs and skulking off with my C average ( . . . heh) to ponder the wreckage of my hopes and dreams, I took a sharp bent for the unintellectual. After a lifetime of bookishness, I took up rock climbing and distance running. I got a retail job in an outdoor gear shop and spent most of my pay on outdoor toys, which I used heavily. I had some amazing adventures and made some great friends. I eventually landed at my current company (a major sports retailer) based largely on my interest and experience in distance running. I met my husband through my running club.

          If I’d succeeded at law school, I doubt I’d have had this much fun or had such an interesting career path. I eventually paid off the student loans and have racked up enough successes to offset that failure. And I OWN that failure, which is empowering in its own way. I tried really hard at something and failed, and I’m still standing. It’s given me license to try new things, knowing that failure is a possible outcome and being OK with that.

          So, even while I’m offering myself up as a cautionary tale, I have no real regrets.

          2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            This is the best story I ever heard. This is like one of those Chicken Soup for the Soul things or somesuch. Seriously inspiring.

    8. A Non*

      You are far from the only person who couldn’t psychologically handle call center work. I quit when my manager warned me I was about to get fired, and then was out of work for several months before I found something else. It’s never held me back. The few times I did discuss it in an interview I just told the truth – I wasn’t cut out for that kind of work, and regretted how it ended, but it had to end. The interviewers were generally sympathetic, and since the work I was applying for wasn’t heavily phone-dependent it wasn’t a problem. Five years later it’s fallen off my resume and only comes up when sharing work horror stories.

      I still hate phones and avoid them if possible. I think the whole “let’s pay people to take verbal abuse from strangers” model is fucked up.

      1. Chloe*

        Emma, this is a good point. A call centre dealing with complaints is a magnet for people who want to heap abuse on someone else. Being a lawyer does not necessarily mean you are going to deal with that. I’ve been a corporate lawyer for 15 years and in that time I’ve never, ever been abused by a client. If I were, they wouldn’t be a client anymore.

        Not every lawyer deals with scumbags every day.

      2. Jacintha*

        Absolutely. Emma, I know it must feel right now like this is going to be a huge black mark on your career, but a LOT of people can’t handle call centre work and it has nothing to do with their ability to handle stress. I couldn’t handle the abuse I took in a call centre and now many years later, I work as an lawyer and can assure you I don’t have to deal with abuse when dealing with clients. Some people might be a bit curt and short, but if anyone is actually abusive abusive to any staff member workplace, whether it be a partner or the assistant receptionist, they are told the are no longer welcome to be clients of the firm. I think you’d benefit from perhaps having a psychologist assess whether your problem was with the stress or the abuse, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the abuse. Human beings are not supposed to be screamed at for hours a day!

      3. Call Girl*

        I hate phones too.
        Call center people can explain/recount stories but until you put on the headset, you really have no idea of the pressures of the job. I would say 80% would not last a week.

    9. nep*

      No specific advice here — just to say all these are facts in your history but need not be a force in your life. You are not those experiences. Know this, and bring this to every application, cover letter, resume, and interview you do. Sounds like you’ve got a lot going for you. Congratulations on the LSAT success. Wishing you all the best in law school, the job search, and beyond.

  15. Sunflower*

    Does your company have a policy on flex-time for travel? A couple of my friends companies offer them free days or time off if they are traveling a lot. When I travel for a Monday event, I am often required to work that Sunday (anywhere from a couple hours to a full day). I often travel back taking the last flight out, get home late and come to work at 8am the next day. Some people, however, come in late or don’t come in but don’t take a vacation day. We don’t have a formal policy so I often end up getting advice from my one boss(not supervisor) saying ‘leave early or come in late’ but my other boss expects me to be there. I have another boss on top of that so I’d like to talk to someone in charge about seeing if we could enact an actual policy so everyone can at least be on the same page.

    SO question is 1. Does your company have a policy like this? 2. What is it and does it work?

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      My company does not offer flex or comp time for travel. As a result, travel is often scheduled during regular business hours, since no one wants to spend their evenings or weekends traveling without some sort of compensation.

      My husband’s company is the opposite. Their policy is set up so that people get comp time for any travel that occurs outside business hours. Sometimes there are limitations on when they can take it, though. For example, my husband’s flight might not arrive until 10 pm, but he still has to attend an important meeting scheduled at 8 am the next morning. Even in a case like that, he still gets to use those hours at some point.

    2. ClaireS*

      I’ve worked in 2 situations.

      1) we had a clear policy at an old company that awarded time and a half in lieu time for overtime that included travel. For most people, this was great but a few people took advantage. My experience with a written policy is that people get really particular about tracking everything and it becomes unnecessarily bureaucratic.

      2) at my current company it’s more flexible and I like it a lot more. When I work a lot or travel, I ask/tell my boss I’ll be taking a Friday off or coming in late. It’s never an issue and no one on my team abuses it (if it was being abused, my manager would nip it in the bud real quick).

      I’d try to get aligned on how you should handle it with all your bosses (the fact that you have more than one would be super irritating to me but that’s another story)

    3. BRR*

      My boss is a rational human being and I’ve come back late from a conference because the company won’t pay for another hotel night and she lets me come in late the next day. But nothing official.

    4. HR Manager*

      We have an unwritten practice of comp time when this gets out of hand, but no written policy otherwise. So if my one day of travel for an important business meeting is Sunday, too bad. If I have to travel on Sundays for two months for a far off client, we get some comp time or other flexible arrangements. In general my company is quite flexible so the one day of un-comped time is not a big deal.

    5. Noah*

      We don’t have an official policy. However, if I travel one week and don’t get home until Sunday evening I feel comfortable telling my boss I’m taking Monday morning off to sleep in and leaving early Tuesday to accomplish things at home like laundry. I am also aware that sometimes it depends on what’s going on at the office and I might have to suck it up, come in, and then take a day off later in the week. I’m flexible and I appreciate that the company is flexible in return.

    6. Agile Phalanges*

      The company I recently worked at handled it somewhat on a case-by-case basis, but were flex-time friendly in general, so generally flex time was allowed.

      Hourly (non-exempt) people were to clock their travel time from “door to door,” so they would often end up with extra time in the work week. They were allowed to take time off within the same work week to compensate (and save the company on OT) if they wanted and their schedule allowed (if you had a morning meeting on Friday after flying home Thursday night, you’d have to come in for that, but could possibly leave early on Friday, for example).

      Salary (exempt) people played it by ear, depending on their work schedule, workload, and optics. But yes, often we would come in late the next morning after arriving on a midnight flight (which usually means not getting to sleep until 1:30 or later). We generally wouldn’t take a whole day off, even if we’d worked a whole extra day (or more), but taking part of a day off in exchange for having worked extra while traveling was fine.

    7. Kathryn*

      My company, and specifically my department, is very flexible with flex time. There is a verbal policy of “We want you here at your best.” If you’re sleep deprived, sick, or distracted by home stuff, go take care of it and come back when you can be ‘on’. It works well for our team of dedicated high performers, though I imagine it’s pretty easy to abuse, if someone were interested in that. For the most part, my department’s work is challenging, rewarding, and contains a not insignificant amount of emergency response and my team is full of people who would rather be challenged than on vacation, so management worries more about burnout than about abuse of flex time. (We also have days where if nothing is on fire, the head of the department will declare the department closed and throw everyone out early. He tries to balance out the days where everything is on fire and we have people watching the 4 th of July fireworks from the office windows before getting back to work.)

      Travel rolls in with everything else, if you come in at midnight from a week plus trip,we don’t expect to see you the next day, we expect you to be sleeping and doing laundry and basically getting back to 100%. Anything that takes time outside of your usual working hours, we expect to have some personal time be taken to balance it out. We don’t track these trade offs strictly, we track progress and accomplishment of the work.

  16. Anonniemouse*

    I don’t find my boss to be a good manager and not very knowledgeable, either. He’s newer than I am, (he’s approaching the 5 month mark) and I know there’s a learning curve, but I feel that I’ve given him many chances and he’s made enough mistakes that I don’t always trust his opinion on how to handle one thing or another. (The tipping point was when he made myself and another staffer work on an “urgent” problem on a Friday afternoon when it wasn’t urgent or relevant or necessary, because “it’s Friday and I (the supervisor) didn’t have anything to do,” despite the fact that myself and that other coworker had plenty of things we needed to do and my boss didn’t even work on this project with us. Since then I haven’t trusted him at all.)

    So what do I do when I need a decision from a higher up and clearly I’m supposed to ask him but I don’t trust him? Anyone else ever had a boss like this?

    1. ClaireS*

      My gut says to give himself enough rope to hang himself. Document everything to CYA and then let the chips fall where they may.

      But, I recognize that may not be helpful in all situations. Good luck.

      1. NJ anon*

        Going through this too. Be patient. Hopefully they will screw up at some point and it will come to light.

    2. HR Anonymous*

      Has he ever been a manager before? If not, and if you feel any compassion/benefit of the doubt for him, keep in mind that it’s hard to learn how to be a manager. It takes experience and practice. With any luck he’ll get better at it as time goes on.

  17. Ann O'Nemity*

    One of my co-workers is going to be laid off in the next few weeks. I know about it because it will affect my work in some major ways and the department is already shifting things around in preparation. It’s really rough because I like my co-worker a lot – and she has no idea whatsoever that it’s coming. Sometimes I feel like I’m almost lying to her by not telling her what’s going on or why project roles are changing. I know I can’t tell her, but I really wish someone would. Anyone been in a similar situation and have some advice for getting through it?

    1. Jennifer*

      I think the general advice I’ve seen around here is that you absolutely can’t tell her for fear of your own job, period. If she doesn’t figure it out on her own, I just don’t think you can tell her. Sorry.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      I’ve never been in that situation, but it would be terrible. Jennifer is right though — you really can’t say anything to her because it could backfire and you could be in hot water.

    3. Squirrel!*

      Is there someone higher up who you could talk to about this? You could let them know how difficult it is for your day-to-day interactions with her because of this situation, and that you feel bad because of it. Definitely emphasis that you have no intention of telling her because they told you not to, but make sure to reiterate that it makes you feel bad, has a negative affect on the workplace, etc. You could even mention that it would look bad to the other employees because now they know if it ever happened to them, they would be left in the dark for weeks while their co-workers tried to go about their business. That doesn’t look good to anyone and won’t do anything for morale.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      This happens to me a lot because not only do I know things in advance about my own division (obviously) but I am usually looped into things company wide before they happen. I very often know the people, occasionally I know them quite well, and always, it makes me sick to my stomach. Sick when I see them, sick when I think about it.

      I keep my mouth shut and power through, being as normally friendly as I always am.

      The alternative would be not feeling sick to my stomach, and I never want to be that person so, power through.

  18. Elkay*

    I had a really good phone interview today. I’ve learnt so much from this site it’s definitely helped me with interviews. I dressed for the interview (right down to my shoes because it felt odd wearing interview clothes but no shoes) and went in with the attitude that the interview is as much for me as it is for them and decide whether or not I want the job. So another vote of thanks for Alison and this site!

    It helped that the interviewer was good too. He gave feedback during the interview which helped put me at ease.

    Now if you’ll excuse me I’m off to accept the invitation to a second interview I’ve just got from them :)

    4. Chloe*

      I missed the word ‘phone’ in your first sentence and was seriously puzzled as to why you were contemplating going to the interview without shoes!! One word makes such a difference :-)

      Well done and good luck!

  19. HeyNonnyNonny*

    So in light of the woman whose desk was directly under the A/C vent, making her cold all the time, what’s your worst office layout peeve?

    In ours, the doors to the restrooms face each other, so if someone presses the door button, the door just stays open for a minute, giving everyone who uses the other restroom a good look inside (just of the sink/paper towel area, nothing too terrible). I’d just rather fix my hair and wash my hands in private…not to mention the smells and sounds that sometimes carry!

    1. Jennifer*

      Heh. I knew someone who got a job where her front desk was RIGHT next to the bathroom and she had to deal with open door and smells all the time. It was driving her nuts.

      1. Jamie*

        I worked in a place that had individual washrooms in the front office – and the microwave and fridge were in the men’s room. They’d go in there day after day and make lunch in their toilet, completely oblivious to how gross that is.

        Both bathrooms were within feet of the front desk. Talk about a wtf layout.

          1. Jamie*

            I don’t know – I was new to the workforce and they are closed now so I’m assuming they are microwaving their hot pockets in someone other men’s room somewhere else.

            And seriously – I was the only woman and the only one who had a problem with it so lots of teasing about how I was such a girl.

            Yeah, because not wanting to prepare food where people defecate is sooo feminine.

              1. Bea W*

                Unless it’s rabbits. Rabbits love to eat while pooping. It’s nature’s way. It goes in one end, comes out the other as “fertilizer”. That’s why it’s recommended to place hay at one end of the litterbox or a hay rack next to the litterbox. They will gladly eat and poop to their heart’s content.

                1. Squirrel!*

                  It’s actually a defense mechanism so that they can kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. They also need to eat some of their fecal matter (they have two kinds of poop) as part of their digestive cycle, so they want to stay near it to know where it is to consume it.

                2. Bea W*

                  The stuff they eat (cecal pellets) come hot right out of the oven so to speak. They don’t return later where they left it. They’ll go out grazing and pooping fecal pellets which are the hard round balls. Then a couple hours later when all snug in their hidey place, they’ll reach down and gobble up their pre-digested leftovers as it’s coming out. (Which is good because cecals are really stinky and hard to get off your toes!)

      2. Sascha*

        My office door faces the door to the women’s restroom. It’s not too bad (also I work from home 3 days a week) but it can make for some awkward eye contact.

      3. AnonyMouse*

        Yup, I worked in an office where the toilets were way too close to a few people’s desks. Not fun for anyone!

    2. AVP*

      Mine is that we’re in a very old building in a newly-hip neighborhood, so all these big companies have moved into the building over the last few years – but the building isn’t equipped for this many people! Based on elevator and stair space, we should have 10-15 people per floor, but now we’ve got like 70. So the wait for an elevator is growing, it breaks all the time, people are constantly bringing their bikes up the elevator and stairs and blocking everything up… its like an extra add-on to my commute. And weirdly we can hear ghost-voices and ghost-parties from other offices in the building, which is also new and kind of freaky the first few times.

      1. chewbecca*

        We have the same issue with the elevators. There are 3 for public use for a 10 floor building. Like you, they often don’t work or they’re too full. Lately, there’s been a lot of construction going on, so sometimes the construction people will take one elevator to use for themselves. It’s a mess.

        1. AVP*

          Argh! We have one for a 7-floor building. It’s ridiculous, especially if there’s someone moving in or out and commandeering it for themselves. And there’s no freight.

          1. MaryMary*

            Large buildings with no freight elevators are my pet peeve! I work in a 13 story building (plus basement) that includes a full service restaurant and a cafe on the first floor. There are four elevators, but none of them are freight. The cafe brings food deliveries in the front door, maintenance commandeers an elevator when they need it, and anytime there’s large scale work on the building we end up sharing the elevator with machinery. Drives me nuts

      2. HeyNonnyNonny*

        People with bikes on elevators = the worst, followed by people with bikes on the metro.

        However, the ghost-parties are intriguing…

        1. AVP*

          Heh. To be fair, we’re in Manhattan so you can’t leave a bike on the street, and there’s nowhere else in our building to put them expect to drag them up to your office. The metro people are the worst though.

          The ghost parties happen when other people in our building are doing something and we can mysteriously hear them through the walls or the vents. Really scary the first time that happened!

    3. Magda*

      I sit next to the office printer. Our workplace does almost everything online so it’s not a huge daily source of distractions. But, whenever the printer isn’t doing what it’s supposed to, invariably, the person always turns and looks at ME expectantly. Of course, if I’ve noticed other people having a particular issue, I’ll say so. If I see a way that I might be able to help, I’ll speak up. But otherwise, I’m trying to figure out how to say “The printer malfunctioning is news to me, too!” and “I have no more knowledge or experience with that printer than you do” in ways that don’t make me sound like a total not-my-job sourpuss.

      It still beats the time I was working as a receptionist, sitting at the first floor entrance, and people would stop by my desk and angrily demand to know why the second-floor printer wasn’t working. >_> Might’ve helped if someone had TOLD me so I could raise an IT ticket…

      1. Noah*

        The copier was right outside my first office. Everyone expected me to have mastered every function of the machine and be able to fix whatever was wrong with the thing. I sent out a not so nice email one day when I returned from lunch to find a note on my desk saying I needed to replace the toner. I was an analyst, not IT or admin and the copier was is no way associated with my job outside of my own use.

      2. Katie the Fed*

        @Magda – I sit by the water cooler so I get comments on it too. I’ve found the best way to deal with it is a slighty bitchy “ok…..?” while looking at them like they’re speaking Basque. They realize they shouldn’t be talking to me about it.

      4. Anonyby*

        IT doesn’t do anything with the printers/copiers/faxes in my company. Either the receptionist/administrator gets called to fix it, or if it’s beyond us, we outsource it to the company that get get them on “loan” from. Most of the time it’s not printing because it’s wanting to use the bypass tray (either someone somehow switched the settings to bypass, or it wasn’t exactly “letter” or “legal” sized), or it’s jammed.

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      My desk is in some sort of weird dead spot, and so my cell phone reception is terrible. I’m also pretty far away from a window. So if I need to send my husband a text during the day, I have to roll my chair out from my desk and hold my phone up towards the window to get a couple bars so the message will send. People sometimes walk by and see me doing this, and they must think I’m nuts.

      1. TL*

        Only one cell phone company has service in our building – which is in a big city, with good coverage and lots of technology everywhere. Except our building.

        At my last job, nobody got good service on campus – it was spotty at best – so this doesn’t bother me, but it bothers a lot of my coworkers.

        1. reader*

          Daughter was looking a college that actually let you know that a particular cell phone provider worked the best in their location.

        2. Bea W*

          It’s the special coated energy efficient glass. What my work did is install special thingamabobs to increase the signal of one provider (the one they use) in the building. Everyone else has to go walk out the door.

    5. Diet Coke Addict*

      My desk position is so weird. I have a cubicle where the door to the office opens in front of it, meaning that my cubicle opening is half-sized, and also people come into the office behind my back. I startle VERY easily and it never fails to make people laugh (for people read: my boss) that I jump when someone comes up behind me. I always have to keep one ear open in case someone is coming so I don’t jump like crazy.

      1. Squirrel!*

        As a joke—or possibly not—you should get one of those little motion detectors that make the “ding-dong” noise (like when you enter some retail shops) and put it somewhere where it can easily detect anyone coming into your cube. That way they can’t sneak up on you! :D

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          *stealing this idea for myself

          I have a huge pillar blocking half my cubicle entrance, so I almost always bump into people or startle when someone comes around it.

          1. Squirrel!*

            People also put mirrors up near their monitors so they can see who is behind them, that might help in both cases. Although you may want to put yours up in the hallway! ;)

    6. Felicia*

      There is a very bright light above where i sit that burns my eyes. But when you turn it off, a coworker in another area is in darkness. It makes more sense for her to get a desk lamp but it’s a big thing.

    7. BRR*

      The bathroom on our floor has a huge list of problems and out of the four bathrooms I’ve been in here the one on my floor is the only one for these things to happen.

      -They built an hvac thing too close to the stall door so when you open the stall door when you’re done it gets caught and stays open. It’s not hard to close, just most people don’t. It’s weird when you walk in and the stall door is wide open, it feels like you’re walking in on someone.
      -They only built one sink instead of two like every other bathroom.
      -They installed the faucet too far away from the sink so that when you wash your hands you’re practically pressing them against the side of the sink and then water gets everywhere.
      -They installed the paper towel dispenser too low over the trash can so you’re practically reaching your hands into the trash to pull the paper towel.

      Four bathrooms with the same design and my floor is the only one with these problems.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Our sinks have the same sort of faucet problem…maybe there’s an industrial school of bathroom design where they all learn these terrible specs

        1. Artemesia*

          sign of a really crappy contractor. In our last house they put hanging rods in a closet that was 10 inches deep and shelves in a closet that was 3 feet deep; you wonder if these guys had ever seen a hangar or if they were just expressing how little of a @#$% they gave. I had a list two pages long that the contractor needed to fix before we closed. after they put in our bathroom electrical work backwards (so the safety switches never worked — I raised kids in a house where the bathrooms were poised to electrocute all of us and we didn’t know it) they probably moved on to install your plumbing and towel dispenser.

    8. chewbecca*

      Part of my job is to cover the front desk, which is in the lobby with the elevators. I’m completely separate from the rest of the office.

      It’s a double-edged sword because it’s quieter up here and there are fewer distractions, but I don’t sit anywhere near my team, so it’s hard to build relationships with them (we don’t do any team-building or staff development here). From what I’ve observed my department is actually fairly cliquey so at least I don’t have to deal with that.

      Oh, I also don’t have a view of any windows from where I sit, so that’s a drag.

    9. Ann O'Nemity*

      At my last job, I started just as the department moved into a brand new building. Unfortunately, the construction folks botched the stalls in the women’s restroom. The toilets were off-center in the stalls, presumably to leave room for gigantic toilet paper dispensers and feminine hygiene receptacle boxes on one side. EXCEPT those things were installed on the small side of the stall. It was impossible to sit on the toilet without your thigh brushing up against the receptacle box. Gross. Meanwhile, there was tons of open space on your other side.

      1. Windchime*

        We have a four-stall bathroom. One is the handicap stall, and the other three are not. Of the remaining three, two are normal sized and the other is so narrow that a normal-sized person can barely wiggle in and out of it. Both sides of the stall are practically touching the person who is sitting. It’s very strange.

        They also had to put in a small wall; otherwise, when the main bathroom door is open, the stalls would be visible to people in the main office area.

    10. Nancie*

      Our office was expanding into a recently vacated space. During remodeling, TPTB showed the floor plan to everyone whose desk was being relocated, and in order of seniority we got to pick our new cube. Two of us were looking forward to a prime spot with our cubes facing the window with the nicest view.

      The last week of construction, we found out that someone had flipped the floor plan: the best window was now going to have 6′ cube walls backing right up to it, and the window with the worst view would have cubes facing it.

      First world problems, I know. But it still makes me sad that the great view was needlessly wasted. Plus, the poor view is a southern exposure that raises the temp in the cubes facing it by at least 4 degrees F. The insulation from a cube wall might have actually been helpful there!

    11. matcha123*

      In my previous jobs, I was in an open office, but my computer screen was relatively hidden. Now, my screen is the first thing anyone will see when they come into the office.
      I am busy enough with my own work, but I need little mental breaks throughout the day. Luckily the comments section of this site isn’t filled with gifs and huge avatar pics!

    12. rek*

      At a previous job, I worked in a 16-story building covering most of a city block that had two (2!) stairways for emergency evacuation. Not particularly wide stairways, either. It took far longer than we would ever have had in a real emergency to get everyone out of the building. There were many, many things I like better about my current job, but one of them is the eight stairways for this 8-story building.

    13. Elizabeth West*

      At Exjob, I sat right in front of the foyer and every time people would open the doors in the winter, I froze to death. I had a heater but people would give me grief for wearing my coat. Sorry, but I could barely type!

      This building is way better, except it’s laid out with huge cube farms and lots of turning hallways and dead ends. It’s like a rabbit warren. I’ve been here since last January and I still have to be careful I don’t get lost and bump up against some area where I can’t get through the electronic access door, especially on the lower floors.

    14. Academic Adviser*

      Well my biggest pet peeve is that we have twice as many people as we do office spaces so everyone has to share, with a tiny partition in between. And we are an academic advising office, which means we have students sitting in our offices talking (often about confidential information) all day and it gets noisy.

      But the other thing I hate is that our front entrance is open to the public and we can’t close or lock it during off hours because we share with other offices. So even when we’re closed and I’m trying to answer emails or get paperwork done, students can just walk up to my door and try to ask questions.

      1. Mimmy*

        A friend of mine had a similar problem at a previous job–she was a social worker at a hospice unit at a hospital, and, IIRC, her setup wasn’t very conducive to confidential sessions.

    16. Eden*

      I guess this isn’t a peeve, exactly, but I really, really don’t like large communal bathrooms. I have to be at work so early that sometimes I can’t force nature to move* in time, and it turns out it’s super awkward to need to do something potentially smellable* when people you know are walking in and out. For years, I worked where there was a single-occupancy room, which also had its pitfalls, but I’d take that over this any day.
      *trying for nice euphemisms, which I know is redundant

  20. Bobotron*

    I’ve had a hard time finding a full-time job (and one that pays decent) in my field (libraries). Two months ago, I started a new job at a university as director of a small department. The pay sucks (I live in a LCOL area and the salary is $29,000/year – I have a master’s degree) but it’s more than I was making part-time and I know it looks good on my resume. Due to the salary and the fact that the work is not challenging, I’ve still been looking for other opportunities. I substitute at a library and just found out that they will soon be posting a full-time position. Pay would be about $10K more with a 15 minute longer commute.

    I can’t decide if it would be a good move or not. On one hand, more money and a job I know I would like – yay! On the other hand, I just finished reading The Confidence Code and it reminded me that before the job market crushed my spirits, I wanted to be in management/leadership positions. So, if that’s my goal, I’m wondering if the full-time library position would be a step backward for my career? I should also note that I am not set on staying in the library field – I’ve worked in libraries for the past 6+ years in some capacity but before that I worked in non-profits and owned my own business. I’ve also had prior management experience.

    It’s just hard because the amount I make now is depressing. And I feel like I’m worth so much more money, especially given my job responsibilities. I’m just thinking that if another management position comes up in say, 6 months, the job I have now will look better than “just” a librarian job. Thoughts?

    2. Red*

      $29k seems unbelievably low for a director position. I would follow the money–there is no reason that the new position couldn’t pave the way for another managerial role. (I mean, I’m an entry level numbers scrub with a MSA and I make $43k/yr with two years in this role. It’s a higher COL region, but our institution is notoriously parsimonious with salaries and raises (which are capped at no more than 3.75% merit/yr)). You are worth a higher salary!

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      Apply. Sounds like a good opportunity. Your current pay and job duties aren’t making you happy, and this sounds like a big improvement.

      1. Academic Librarian Anonymous*

        Just trying to understand- the director of the small department in the university is low paying and not a librarian job?

        You have opportunity for a a full time librarian job at a salary of $10,000 more.

        If it helps- I left a public librarian job (on a career track) for a school librarian job for almost the same salary because I liked the school librarian job’s institutional message. I was worried that I left a guaranteed path of promotion to be “just the school librarian” What I learned was that even though the previous “school librarian” did only that, I had many opportunities to learn and grow as well as take advantage of professional development opportunities offered by regional and national organizations like the American Library Association.

  21. K-Anon*

    AnonyMOOSE — I’ve done a few freelance gigs on the side of my FT job. A few notes. 10 hours a week is doable for me and maybe occasionally I could do 16. But sustaining more than 10 hours a week — you might want to aim for that and see how it works for you before trying to do more. There’s a big difference when you’re doing that on top of a FT week.

    Your freelance clients don’t necessarily need to know if you have an FT gig. They mostly need to know you’ll get the work done you say you will by the deadline, and that the work is done well. I had a longer-term freelance client at one point who knew from the beginning that I had an FT job. That helped manage their expectations in terms of my availability. (It became apparent pretty quickly that they were poorly-managed and I ended up having to “fire” them because they were just so crazy. They were my first freelance client and it was a valuable learning experience.)

    Learning to manage clients as a freelancer is a skill and it takes time, but starting by being clear about expectations for both of you, meet your end of the bargain, should get you off to a good start. I highly recommend The Freelancer’s Bible for getting set up and for tips on building a client base. Even if you’re not planning to freelance fulltime, it is very helpful — a good investment. There are also places like Editorial Freelancers Association that are rich with tips and resources for freelance writers and editors. Good luck!

  22. Skye*

    I need to cry on someone’s shoulder for a little bit. And maybe hire that person who did curses.

    We have to send a notice to every client in our database, all sixteen thousand of them, which was all well and good. Until my manager decided that the best and most reasonable solution would be to print the entire list and have me type up every single address.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      My husband has a trick for work like this: Imagine a little man who comes by every hour/minute and puts the money that you’re earning on your desk.

      That little man has gotten me through a lot of tedious hours!

      1. LBK*

        I was going to suggest something similar – whenever I’m stuck doing a really stupid and tedious task, I remind myself “Someone is paying me a ridiculous amount of money for such simple work right now. Just enjoy it.”

    4. Eliza Jane*

      Wait wait what do you — wait WHAT?

      That is CRAZYLAND. There are at least 30 better ways to handle this, one of which might just be setting fire to the server and pretending it never existed.

      1. LBK*

        I’m reminded of the commenter who lit some documents on fire on the side of the road because she didn’t know how to file them and she didn’t want to tell her managers.

      1. Dasha*

        Thought… can you scan the list he gave you then if you have Adobe PDF can you save as a Microsoft Word document? Then you could just copy and paste. It does depend on which Adobe you have though… you need Pro. Just a crazy idea.

        1. Skye*

          I could scan it; my job normally consists of just scanning our files so we can shred our physical copies. We don’t have Pro though, and it took me three months to realize every time my manager asks if I could “just” add these other files to the “end” of what I’ve scanned, she does not have some demonic expectation for me to edit the pdf file while only having access to a pdf reader.

    10. Lizabeth*

      There’s has got to be a way to pull the email address out of your database in a file that can be used for a mass email. What does your IT dept say?

      Love the little man idea with this: imagine the pile of money getting higher as well.

      1. Jamie*

        The info is in the database so there’s a way. Bring IT some brownies (or scrambled eggs because I’m starving) and have them export it for you into excel.

        Tell the boss you typed it all by hand and look, exactly as it is in the system! You’re very fast. Then tell your boss you are transcribing all the paper documents in your office by chiseling them on stone tablets. He seems like he’d like that considering his love for useless busywork and archaic methods.

        1. Judy*

          Yep, this. Beg, borrow or steal an electronic copy and do it the right way. Let your boss think you’ve typed it in.

          1. Elysian*

            Worst case scenario, you may be able to scan his print out and id the text. Then copy and paste it into excel and proceed with mail merge. Obviously getting the electronic original is better, but… man. There are lots of options besides just typing it in!

            1. Bea W*

              I did exactly that 14 years when my boss handed me some long printouts and had no electronic source to work with. Scanned the 100s of pages and ran an OCR program. It needed some clean-up but it was way easier than typing in all the entries by hand.

        2. A Non*

          Yes, exactly this. IT will be sympathetic. (If they’re not, cookies will generally get you what you want. If that doesn’t work, booze.)

        3. Bea W*

          People payed me in Dr. Pepper (not kidding, people would hand me a six pack of DP at work for fixing their things), which unfortunately I can’t enjoy so much anymore because of the caffeine, but I also accept cake and pastry and promises of such in the future.

        4. Skye*

          If going to IT didn’t also mean going through my manager, I’d have already done this. We usually don’t get IT support unless we have an actual problem. This… assignment… doesn’t count. Because the computers are still working and the database isn’t corrupted. My manager isn’t hugely computer savvy so I don’t think the idea to export – assuming we can export without fiddling with drivers – even occurred to her. (And I’ll admit, the sheer ridiculousness of this drove very idea that exporting is even a thing from my head entirely until recently.)

          Jamie, I’d make you brownies (or eggs) but I fear they’ll be moldy by the time they reach you. So I will have to make a grand sacrifice and eat them for you.

    12. Sharon*

      Agree this is a special level of crazy. Here is how I’d handle it if it was me (and without knowing your boss or company culture, so YMMV):

      1. Nicely and politely take boss’s printed list and set it on my desk.
      2. Ask whoever he got the list from to send it to you in csv or tab delimited format, whichever they prefer.
      3. Import list into Excel and massage as needed to make it work with Word’s mail merge functionality.
      4. Use MS Word to mail merge it into the letters and envelopes.
      5. Present completed stack of ready-to-mail letters to boss. (Don’t mention that the list is still on your desk untouched and unlooked-at. That’s an unnecessary level of detail.)

      1. Sadsack*

        This, definitely. There’s no way I would be given that project and not find a better way.

        Would it be a bad idea to tell the boss how you went about completing the task so fast if he asks? I would tell him, “Oh, I realized after we spoke that I could do it this way instead.” Why would he care how you accomplish it as long as you get it done?

      3. Katie the Fed*

        Somewhere between #4 and #5 – screw around to burn lots of time so boss thinks you put a lot of time into it, since he clearly doesn’t value your time.

      4. Manager Anonymous*

        This! Everything else is on a “need to know ” basis and your manager doesn’t need to know.

      5. Skye*

        I *think* we can get the list in csv format. Maybe? We updated our program in the last year so I think we’ve got the version that can export nicely without fiddling with drivers.

        If I can just get it into openoffic’s calc then everything will be right with the world and I can stop wishing for a plague of fire ants to infest my manager’s lawn.

    13. Ann Furthermore*

      OMG. Just, OMG. Can you extract the addresses and do some sort of mail/merge? If I had access I would just do it without even saying anything to your boss.

    14. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Ugh. Sometimes it’s not worth it to battle the crazy, in which case I second HeyNonnyNonny’s advice. If this is going to get you yelled at for not accomplishing other tasks or is otherwise a real issue for you, can you quickly do a few pages of mail merge and show them to your manager, and then say something like hey, are these OK, because I can do these much more quickly!

    15. Elkay*

      Who to the what now?! He’s printed the list, that must have come from somewhere. Have you asked him for a soft copy?

        1. Skye*

          Almost! We do have to fold the invoices/notices/whatever we’re mailing (our folding machine likes to chew up paper) and stuff the envelopes ourselves.

    18. Not So NewReader*

      I have no idea what a reasonable number would be so let’s use make-believe numbers.
      Suppose you typed 200 addresses per hour. This is slightly more than 3 per minute. And this assumes you are able to sustain that 200/hour rate. 16k addresses will take you 80 hours to type.
      Two weeks.

      Ask the boss when he wants this done.

    19. Apollo Warbucks*

      You could talk nicely to the people who look after the system they could give you a list of all the addresses in pretty much ant format you want.

      I deal with these requests for data all the time and it’s really easy to do.

    21. Skye*

      Thanks everyone. I needed some reassurance that this was, indeed, ridiculous and I had not woken up in Bizarro World.

      We do actually need the notices out soonest, so at least I’ll have that on my side come Monday when I get to try to talk my manager into exporting the data. (And shredding all 400+ pages of the printout will be very satisfying.) At worst – if this is the worst database program thingy of all time and it just cannot be exported in any usable format – it’ll only take about 13 more days of non-stop typing.

  23. C Average*

    Had an interview yesterday for a lateral move in my department that would get me out of my current job (which has never been a great fit for a lot of reasons) and back into something I’ve done really well in the past. I hope it works out.

    Didn’t get an interview for the really awesome job I’d been pursuing outside of my department. They were supposed to schedule interviews late last week/early this week, and I never got a call. The hiring manager for the job, whom I’ve known for a long time, asked me to have a specific colleague (not my manager, but someone who oversees quite a bit of my day-to-day work) write a brief note in support of my application. I got an email from this colleague this morning telling me he had only just sent the note now because it’s been a busy couple of weeks for him. I’m disappointed that he didn’t act sooner; a note of support from him could’ve made a real difference and might have gotten me an interview.

    Good luck to all the rest of you out there who are pursuing new jobs. We’re gonna get there.

    1. ACA*

      Good luck to all the rest of you out there who are pursuing new jobs. We’re gonna get there.

      Oh, I needed this today. Thanks.

    2. Elkay*

      They may still schedule you as you’re internal. Surely an internal interview of an hour is easier to fit in than an external one? Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

      1. C Average*

        Thanks! If it happens, it’ll be an awesome surprise at this point, because I’ve definitely written it off as a possibility.

    3. Fact & Fiction*

      Good luck! I know the right job will come along for you at the right time. *crosses fingers for extra luck*

  24. Chloe*

    Any advice on what to do when you don’t have anyone you can use as a reference? The person I was using is having a high risk pregnancy and can’t act as my reference anymore, but I have no one else I can ask and I’m worried it will stop me getting a new job.

    1. fposte*

      Was there anyone else at that workplace? Is this recent enough that you can use teachers/professors (not great, but better than nothing)? You’ll be at a disadvantage if you genuinely have no one who can speak to your work ability.

    2. Red*

      I’d actually be interested in this as well. My previous manager unfortunately passed away, and our mutual employer has a policy against giving references. Everyone else is from my university days, and that work experience is no longer particularly relevant, even if I had done a better job of keeping up with them. (I am not sociable, which is in my opinion my biggest flaw.)

      1. CAA*

        The policy against giving references only applies to current employees. So the trick is to find former employees who knew you while you were there. It’s best if there was some sort of management relationship to you — your manager’s manager; manager of a dept you worked closely with; etc — but even a former coworker would be better than nobody.

        Also, get on LinkedIn and connect to everyone you know from all your past jobs, even the college ones, and even if you haven’t spoken to these people in a few years. It’s ok, really. People do this all the time.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Can she write up a letter of reference before she goes on leave? I know most hiring managers would rather call and talk to a person, but maybe she could at least lay out what she would say in a call.

  25. LBK*

    How on earth do you get into consulting? My friend suggested it as a next career step since flexibility in my work life is extremely important to me, but I know virtually nothing about it.

    1. Kai*

      I think networking is the big ticket here. You start small, maybe help out a friend or colleague with a project in your area, and slowwwwwwly build a client base.

    2. MaryMary*

      Consulting is a VERY broad term, and in my opinion consultant is overused as a job title (I passed a strip mall tanning salon this week who was hiring “consultants”). What is your area of expertise?

  26. Tigress*

    Could anyone here give me his/her thoughts on benefits/disadvantages of getting a PhD in Communication? I’m in a masters program in strategic communication right now and I am really enjoying doing research. There’s so much I want to study! If I still feel this way after graduating, would you recommend I pursue a PhD? I know a PhD in Communication probably sounds a bit like overkill – but at the same time, strategic communication is developing so fast right now with new media and social networks, etc., and I feel there are so many aspects of this that employers out there would like to hire an expert in. At my old job, my former boss wanted to “master” PR/marketing communication tactics online, but it’s such a new field that A lot of people is mostly learning as they go. Thoughts?

    2. AVP*

      Hmm…can you tell us a little more about how you would want to use it? And would the program be funded or something you have to pay for?

      To be honest, when I think of an “expert” in new styles of communication, a PhD is the last person I think of. Mostly because unless you want to work in academia, communications is a heavily experience-based field, as you point out – would you actually be able to learn about real-world problems and solutions by studying it, or would you be removing yourself from the realities of the type of job that you want?

      1. TL*

        Mainly because when you think of “People good at communicating” the last group you’re ever going to consider is academia. :)

    3. ACA*

      I work with outgoing PhD students and from what I’ve seen of the career stats, PhDs from our Communications school seem to have one of the highest rates of employment upon graduation. And let me tell you, the dissertations I’ve seen from them are fascinating: The changing use of advertising in political campaigns! Adultery in the internet age! A behind-the-scenes case study of reality tv production! It’s great.

    4. The IT Manager*

      I suggest you think about what you want to do after you get the PhD. The PhD program only lasts a few years where you get to enjoy doing the research, you need to have a plan for after graduation.

      1. TL*

        If the OP is one of the lucky few, she could end up with a job doing research as a Ph.D for the rest of her life. Which it sounds like might be something she’s interested in.

    5. CTO*

      If most “experts” in the field seem to have gotten there by learning as they go, are you sure employers would be willing to pay a premium for having learned in school instead? I don’t know much about communications, but I’d take a good look at the job market first to make sure a PhD is in demand and appropriately compensated in your field. PhDs require so much time and money that I think it’s always important for people to have a specific, realistic, and well-researched plan for what they’ll do with their degree.

    6. Not A Sales Rep*

      @Tigress — I earned my MA in Communication back in 2012 and shortly after landed an awesome job in in-house healthcare/corporate communications. Based on my experience, I think the answer to your question depends on a few factors: 1) What do you want to do with your PhD — teach, research, consult, “practice” communications either in-house or at an agency? 2) How much work experience in the comm. field did you have before returning for your MA? 3) piggy-backing on CTO’s comment – what are your salary expectations as a PhD vs. a Master’s degree holder? In my industry, there would likely be no interest in hiring or paying for a Comm. PhD — an advanced degree simply isn’t an advantage when it comes to real world communications practice in our space. Even our best external consultants and communication advisors don’t have PhDs. What they do have is decades of experience as practitioners: communication street cred. On the rough days at work, I ponder going back for the PhD, but I would only do so if 1) I already had a research question nailed down, 2) I was okay with having essentially no income for 4-5 years — at least, relative to my current salary, and 3) I planned to consult or teach after. I know that if I want to remain a practitioner, the best place for me to stay is right here, out in the field, and I’d say the same thing to almost anyone who is interested in working as a communications professional.

      1. Tigress*

        Oh my goodness! I posted my comment, refreshed the page and realized there were a gazillion other comments ahead of mine and didn’t think anyone would look this far down the thread. And now I checked back in and realized I received some really thoughtful helpful advice. Thank you, everyone! I am definitely going to take all of this into consideration. Thank you all for taking the time!

  27. Anonforthis*

    Unfortunately I have been given the heads up that I will likely be laid off in a few (short) weeks. I’ve read Allison’s articles on what do when you get laid off – in the meeting and after. But what I’d like to know is what do I need to do before the day comes? I’ve backed up all my files, taken home as many personal things as I can, schedules all my doctors appointments for the near future – but I still feel like I’m missing things that I should be taking care of now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Kate*

      – Start collecting names/contact info for anyone you want to stay in touch with outside of the office or need references for.

      – Start collecting job descriptions for help in updating your resume.

    2. Colette*

      Look at your finances. Identify what changes you can make to reduce your living costs, and figure out at what point you’ll make them. Figure out whether you qualify for UI, how much you can expect, and when you should start getting it.

    3. ACA*

      Find out if you can cash out your unused vacation time/PTO, and if so, whether you need to to initiate that process (and how to do so) or if it’s added to your final paycheck automatically.

      1. De Minimis*

        If there are any documents you may need that are done electronically [pay stubs maybe] print them out now and take them home.

        1. Anonforthis*

          Thank you all for your thoughts – I’m hoping to have my ducks all in a row so that this goes as best as it can. Do you think it would be worth it to try to get copies of my performance reviews?

          2. CTO*

            It might be nice to have (I always keep mine), but more so for your own records than for future employers to see. If for some reason you can’t get a reference from your current employer down the road (like they close, your manager is unreachable, etc.), a new employer might accept performance reviews instead.

          3. Agile Phalanges*

            Yes! I asked HR for my whole personnel file, and copied things I thought would be relevant. Trainings I’ve attended, performance reviews. It’s amazing the stuff I did 10+ years ago that I’ve since completely forgotten about, but would be good examples to use in interviews, etc.

    4. CTO*

      I’m sorry to hear about your layoff. I had several months’ notice of my layoff this summer and here are some of the things I did:

      Looked into my health insurance options (spouse’s plan, COBRA, healthcare exchange)
      Let people know that I’ll be looking for a new job, updated my LinkedIn profile, etc. etc.
      Strategized with my boss about how to communicate my departure to my clients
      Documented my accomplishments and collected some of my best files/examples of my work to take with me
      Trained coworkers in the parts of my job that they would be taking over and documented other aspects for my boss and team
      Figure out HR things, like when your benefits end, etc.

      It’s obviously tough to be super motivated, happy, and productive every day until your layoff date. Cut yourself a bit of slack, but also do your best to keep being a solid contributor with a reasonably positive attitude as long as there’s work to be done.

      (And yes, I did land another great job and scored a 60% raise to boot. Good luck to you!)

    5. HR Manager*

      In addition to what’s been stated, find out how to file for unemployment in your state. Even if you magically find a fantastic job opening soon, unemployment is a good safety net, and various states have varying degrees of difficulty in getting that initiated.

      I know it’s a bummer to get this news, but don’t jump the gun until you learn more about any package info (severance? subsidized benefits for a time?), unless you know for certain there is no package.

      1. danr*

        And, if you get a severance package release, don’t sign it that day. Tell HR that you’d like to take it home and read it over. They expect that. If there’s anything in it that appears odd, it’s okay to ask a lawyer about it. Or, ask HR questions. Then sign it, and initial each page. Make a copy and ask HR to return a signed and initialed copy to you.

  28. GrumpyBoss*

    I would love to hear everyone’s strangest feedback they’ve ever received.

    We get feedback we don’t want to hear but when we consider it, we realized that we needed to hear it. We get feedback that we disagree with and, ultimately, decide to ignore. But now and then, you get that piece if constructive criticism that just makes you think, “why on earth would you say that? What am I supposed to do with that?”

    I got one of those earlier this week and it’s annoyed me, which is why I decided to start this thread. I had to let an employee go on Monday. I asked my boss to sit in on this one. As far as the act, I think it went as well as it could’ve, given the circumstances. Later, I was given this unsolicited gem from my boss. “When you give bad news, it sounds like you are from the Midwest. It was distracting to me. So next time, try not to sound like you are from Chicago”

    WTF. That may be one of the most useless pieces of advice I ever received.

    Also, FWIW, I don’t even have a Chicago accent.

    1. The LeGal*

      What in the world was that advice?! When I worked in my college job, the owner told me that he liked my personality better after I had been drinking. He asked me if I could act like that at work. Ummm, so take a shot of tequilla in the back room? Glad I did not take that advice. I’d be an alcoholic now!

      1. Just Visiting*

        At a previous job, the manager saw me outside of work with my husband. She didn’t say hello, just sorta creeped me, I guess. Sometime the next week she said that she saw me out with him and said “you were so happy and lit up and I want to see you act that way at work.” I was pretty weirded out, both that she was creeping on us and also because hello, you’re not my spouse and this is work, not something I want to be doing.

    3. C Average*

      I was once told that if I wanted to be a viable candidate for a type of work in which I’d expressed an interest, I needed to develop “a little more swagger.”

    4. LBK*

      The only thing I can think of is that you shifted into a different tone of voice or manner of speaking because you knew you had to stay focused and serious during the firing. I do that sometimes without realizing it – I put on an unnatural voice because the situation has be very focused on what I’m saying. Maybe that’s what happened, and the boss was just trying to tell you to relax a little and not sound forced/awkward/fake? I don’t know how that translates to Midwestern, but it’s the only thing I can come up with.

      1. Christine*

        I slip into my mother’s New York accent when I am giving someone a stern lecture, if I don’t watch it.

    5. Eliza Jane*

      I was once in a phone screen where the person interviewing me said, “I don’t understand how you can know absolutely nothing about anything but still be intelligent.”

      They asked me to come in for an in-person interview, so I guess it was… something? It was pretty useless.

        1. Eliza Jane*

          No. It didn’t. It was supposed to be a 20-minute phone screen, and it ran an hour and 15 minutes. He would ask me an interview question, and I’d have no idea what he meant. Then he’d make a comment/side question, and I’d talk with him about how my work related. And then he’d ask another question, and I’d have no idea what he meant.

          But he seemed to really enjoy talking with me (seriously, 375% time overrun) and find my ideas and thinking and work fascinating. I just failed to answer literally any of his technical interview questions.

          I tend to blame the questions more than myself. I actually did go to the interview, which I treated as interview practice. They were very in love with the idea of themselves as cutting edge and awesomely geeky-techy. I was asked about how often I read SlashDot, how I kept abreast of new paradigms, and so forth. So I think they just wanted someone who breathed jargon.

    6. Dasha*

      When I left my first career job (post-college) to move onward to advance my career to the next step, on my last day my boss (who had been an awesome boss and from what I knew very nice man) shook my hand, thanked me for all my work, and told me not to worry if things didn’t work out I was pretty and could always marry rich!! He was dead serious.

      I just laughed and thanked him but it was so friggin’ weird.

    7. Jamie*

      Apparently your boss doesn’t know you are using the patented soothing midwest vocal technique which is proven to help people accept bad news better.

      Most useless advice wasn’t work related, but I got my full height at 12 or so and my dad looked me up and down one day and said, “you’re tall enough now, for a girl. You really shouldn’t grow anymore.”

      Thanks, Dad. He probably took the fact that I had already reached my towering height of 5’7″ and didn’t grow any more as a rare act of obedience.

      At work the closest I have is being told I need to be more approachable understress, but still need to be a bitch to get things done. Approachable bitch, got it.

      1. Buffay the Vampire Layer*

        Oh I can relate to a height crazed father. I am the shortest person in my family. Shorter than all of my grandparents etc. When I was growing up this very much bothered my 6 foot tall dad, who was oddly proud of the heights of my 6’5″ half-brother and 5’8″ half-sister.

        Well into my teens he insisted on measuring me against the doorjam like a little kid. When I continued to be 5’1″ every time he kept telling me “don’t worry, you’ll grow,” which annoyed me to no end, because I never had a problem being short because it meant I could date all the cute short boys (gymnasts etc.).

        Unfortunately for me, he was right. I grew an inch and a half at the age of 25.

      2. Natalie*

        Approachable Bitch will be my new band name. Or commenting name. Or something, I need to use this somewhere.

    8. JMegan*

      Whaaa? That’s really odd.

      I once had a manager tell me that I was an excellent waitress (not true), but that my hair was “a little out of control.” That part was true, but what exactly was I supposed to do about it? Did he think I didn’t know that my hair was out of control? Or that the only thing standing between me and good hair was his feedback?

      All I wanted to say was “Gee, thanks boss! My hair has been out of control my entire life, but now that you have pointed it out, I definitely know exactly how to fix it!”

    9. matcha123*

      I was told by my old supervisor, who is Japanese and only 3 years older than myself, that foreigners aren’t serious about working and most of them are only in the country for a short time to play and go home. This was when I was trying to figure out why I wasn’t getting permanent status despite going above and beyond. He followed that up by saying that I’d need to speak in Japanese if I wanted the position…despite the fact I only talked with him in Japanese, had my interview in Japanese, passed the highest level Japanese test there is AND did Japanese to English translation for the company!

    10. Mints*

      Oh this is a great thread

      I was told at this job, “I know you’re doing X, but please make sure you’re doing X.” X was a specific formatting for the calendar. I still don’t know if that was supposed to be praise (thanks for keeping up with this arbitrary formatting, keep it up!) or a correction (I know you’re mostly doing this formating, but you missed one yesterday). I didn’t respond to that email

    11. MisterPickle*

      I’ve got some feedback for your boss: “Boss, sometimes you say stuff that makes absolutely no sense.”

      (I was born and raised in the midwest and have spent a lot of time in Chicago and I have no idea what he might be getting at).

      1. Jamie*

        Just jealous of our dulcet tones and eloquent turns of phrase. Not everyone can be from the midwest and they can’t hide their jealousy. They deserve pity rather than anger.

        I don’t have an accent of any kind, but when I lived on the west coast many years ago I had a stalemate with the landlord when telling him we needed a “gratchky.” He was baffled and had no idea what I needed. After a few go rounds he I pointed to the garage and explained we had the electric opener but no key to get in the side door.

        Ohhh…a GARAGE KEY…which is exactly what I had been saying. Not my fault if people hear too slow.

        1. GrumpyBoss*

          I grew up all over the Midwest, so probably do have a Midwestern accent but nothing dominant. I do have some Midwestern-isms that are really irritating to some, like my insistence on saying “pop” instead of “soda”.

          But, ironically, my boss who gave the feedback is from Boston and uses “wicked” in every other sentence, so he’s one to talk. Can you imagine? “You are wicked bad at this job so we have decided to fire you”.

          1. A Teacher*

            I grew up outside of Chicago (aka North of 80) and now live South of 80, yesterday a co-worker got annoyed and then at dinner the sales guy got annoyed because I said I wanted a “pop.” I said “oh yeah, you people say soda or something don’t you?” So even in Illinois it depends on where you live.

          2. Bea W*

            Did you try saying someting like “Hey boss, you have to try this wicked good pop I found at the store!”

            1. GrumpyBoss*

              I’ve lived in Wisconsin too, so I’d have to figure out how to work in “water bubbler” into that sentence.

              I’ll admit, I use bubbler not out of habit, but because it amuses me.

              2. Bea W*

                I use “bubblah” because “water fountain” just sounds wrong. Is that even the right word? Water fountain? Drinking fountain? Screw that. Where’s the bubblah? I’m wicked thirsty.

          3. MisterPickle*

            On reflection – and I know I shouldn’t let this bug me that much – all I can think is that maybe he was making some kind of reference to Rob Blagojevich or something about Chicago politics?

            1. GrumpyBoss*

              Oooh, you may be onto something there. He usually isn’t so obtuse, but I’d prefer to think that he meant something like this rather than a knock on an accent.

              Yet another reason why I love this place.

              1. Kelly L.*

                I wondered if it was something like the stereotype of “Midwestern nice.” Like, he thought you were too kind about it or something.

    12. Maxwell Edison*

      In my last review, I was told that when I walk around in the halls I “look up at the ceiling” and this is apparently a very horrible and disrespectful thing to do.

      So now when I go to the bathroom or to the printer I pretend I am balancing a book on my head.

      Yes, I am looking for another job.

      1. Jamie*

        So this isn’t even when you’re talking to people, just walking? Why do they are? I look at my feet…it’s not because I’m shy, it’s because I don’t want to have to talk to anyone unless I have to and I have cute shoes.

        I had this issue as a child, looking up at the ceiling, but when speaking to people and it was a years long process to train me to at least pretend to look people in the eye. Here’s a secret, unless I’m in love with you or gave birth to you, or I am so pissed my direct gaze is burning into your very soul… I’m really looking at your eyebrows – I don’t do direct eye contact casually.

        1. Maxwell Edison*

          I have no idea why anyone would care. To me, eye contact means “I want to talk to you” but if I’m heading to the bathroom or the printer I don’t want to talk to anyone.

          I honestly think this is some kind of half-assed strategy on the part of my manager to force me out at next review time. I am no longer a good fit for this position (and we both know it), and I am only staying until January or I get a better offer. So I just have another few months of pretending to balance a book on my head…

          1. MisterPickle*

            It probably wouldn’t help, but I’d be tempted to quip “well, some people prefer to look downward – I prefer to look up” or words to that effect.

    13. Cath in Canada*

      “I think you’ll do well, despite your accent” – PhD supervisor, after several beers one Christmas! It was tough being English in a Scottish lab sometimes…

      “You’re one of those people who’s just part of the furniture, from their first week onwards” – I’ve heard versions of this from colleagues at three different jobs. I choose to interpret it as a good thing.

      1. Jamie*

        Yeah – I got one of those once and I also chose to interpret it as a good thing.

        Upon hire: “You’ll know you’re doing a good job when I forget I have an IT department.” Boded well for being able to work autonomously and I was not wrong.

    14. Who are you?*

      I worked in a retail shop for several years. Our uniform was a black polo shirt and black jeans. I had a district manager tell me that my breasts were distracting. Um…what? I’ll admit that I am pretty stacked but everything was covered up with no more skin than the top button of a man’s polo shirt would expose. (Not even enough to show my necklace). On top of this, my DM was a female and she was staring at my chest the whole time she was talking. I honestly didn’t know what to do with her comment beyond crossing my arms.

      2. Jamie*

        Kind of work related since I came across this at an old workplace, but in my former life I worked in disbursements in the finance department of a college. We processed financial aid and grants for students all day long – (nationwide school – home office did everyone) so came across a lot of names in the course of the day. Two stuck with me all these years:

        1. Velvety (female first name)
        2. Prettiest Common last name which is also a common slang term for penis. (male)

        Who DOES that to their children and why oh why upon turning 18 is not your first order of business to get to the courthouse and change this? When I first saw “Prettiest” I assumed it was a woman and my snarky thought was “with that name she’d better be or that’s a life time of merciless mocking.” When I saw the whole thing and that it was a man I was speechless.

        If I saw this anywhere else I’d assume urban legend or stage name or whatnot – but it was on official financial documents and school registration so…

        Anyway – tldr – maybe he had worked with this woman and he wanted you to be more like her?

        1. Agile Phalanges*

          Oh, man. I haven’t even been exposed to as many names as you have, but kept a list over the 12+ years at my last company.
          Cinnamon Normallastname
          Chesty Somethingorother
          Fantasy Normallastname (in fact, she shared this common last name with my boyfriend at the time, so I gave him a hard time about being related to her)

          I agree–even if your parents were so cruel as to give you those names, wouldn’t you change them the second you turned 18? These were all gleaned from vendors’ e-mail signatures, or extended phone conversations or such, not just heard once (and potentially misheard). How do you even keep a straight face when doing business with Chesty?

          1. GrumpyBoss*

            I knew a chesty. He was the most macho man I ever met (nice way of saying over the top bully). Probably learned at an early age to defend himself with a name like that.

    16. kdizzle*

      “We all appreciate your ‘outside the box’ ideas…but we’re not building a Rube Goldberg machine.”

      Ouch. That one was at my first job; I was so excited and ready to save the world. I stopped speaking in meetings for quite a little while after that.

    17. MaryMary*

      At OldJob, I was assigned to a new set of clients and started working with a new team. Another manager told my manager that his direct reports had said I was unapproachable. Nice, but unapproachable. Both my manager and I were uncertain what to do with this feedback. You can hardly go up to someone and say, “I hear you think I’m unapproachable!”

      Finally, we figured out that the woman who I replaced had been best friends (like since kindergarten) with one of the women on my team, and had worked with one of the others for over five years. It wasn’t that I was unapproachable, it was that I wasn’t Sara. We just needed time to build our own relationship.

    18. QualityControlFreak*

      I was working for a big international corporation on a local government contract. The government people I interfaced with and supported were not in my direct chain of command; for me, that was corporate. They were our customers, as well as our teammates, but they had their own hierarchy. And internal politics.

      My boss came to see me and said one of our government customers had commented on how efficient I was in X work process. And asked if I could be a little less efficient. Our civil service counterparts had more levels of review and approval on their end, and my deliverables were ready before they were prepared to take action on them.

      I took a breath and said, “okay, so just what level of inefficiency am I shooting for here?” We agreed on a week. I’d put together the package and set it aside for a week before forwarding it to my government colleagues.

      That was the weirdest.

    19. Victoria, Please*

      A couple of times I’ve been told, “someone said you said X.” I respond, “No, I said z.” “Well, you need to be careful how people understand you. Don’t say things they don’t understand.” Hmmmm.

  29. Natalie*

    I get a free day off because our server crapped out. And it’s payday!

    It’s amazing how server-dependent my job has become. For an hour or so we couldn’t even use the phone, although that part has since been restored.

    1. Jamie*

      My prayers are with your IT department…one person’s free day off is another person’s day in hell. :)

      Enjoy the day – I’d wish the same thing here, but the servers going down never means less for for me. Just less stomach lining and a few more years off the end of my life.

    2. RB*

      I came into the office on Tuesday morning to find that our servers were down! Luckily I had a book in my bag. Probably not the best look when my boss came in to find me reading with my feet up on my desk, but he was cool with it once I explained what was going on. He was going to send the team home if we weren’t back online by 11 (at that point I would have been there for 4 hours), but everything was back online by 10:45. So close…

      1. Natalie*

        I made the two non-internet tasks I had (phone calls) and then made appointments and paid bills for a couple of hours before I gave up. I had a book, but honestly I wanted to use the time to do other chores at home and I have an enormous pile of vacation… no harm, no foul IMO.

  30. Emm Jay*

    I’d like to make a change. I’ve done my resume (had it reviewed by Allison), and it kicks major rear end. Now, I got to apply for jobs. But something’s stopping me. I know that it’s time to leave my current job (layoffs, non-market salary, and promotion) that I’ve had for 10 years. Yet, every time I think about applying, I just don’t do it.
    How did you push yourself to apply for a new job, and make the eventual change?
    Also, it’s been 10 years since I’ve looked for work. Other than networking and LinkedIn, what tips do have for finding a new job?

    1. JMegan*

      I’m the same way. I don’t really know how to get out of it, tbh – all I’m really doing is reminding myself that I need to get out of CurrentJob, and the only way to do that is to get those resumes out the door, whether I’m in the mood to or not.

      One thing I do, besides keeping track of all the jobs I have applied to, is I also keep track of the jobs I *didn’t* apply to. Not all of them, of course! But jobs that are in my field, at the appropriate level for me – jobs that I could reasonably have applied to but didn’t. Sometimes it’s for a legit reason, like the salary is too low or the commute is too long, but there are a handful where the only reason is that I just didn’t get around to it. It’s weird, but it’s kind of an anti-demotivator for me – seeing my “I just didn’t do it” list there in black and white is a useful (if depressing) reminder that there are jobs out there if only I can get my act together and apply for them.

      Good luck, I know it’s not easy.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      To push myself- I tell myself that I will find something better in x, y, z areas.
      I think you do have to read a few listings to get a feel for what is out there. So from time to time, I give myself permission to coast for a day, just read and absorb.

      But mostly, I think promise yourself that you are going towards something that is better, more interesting, etc. It’s really easy to fall into the pit of the devil you know, is better than the one you don’t know. Avoid that pit, that’s an illusion that makes you believe there is nothing better out there. But it’s just an illusion. You can find something that you will be excited about.

    3. Agile Phalanges*

      Ugh. I can sympathize, but am not the best person to give advice on this topic. I kept considering leaving my job I had for over 12 years, and finally found the motivation to start looking when I was given six months notice of my layoff. Sorry!

      Maybe tell yourself you’ll apply for one job a week (or do one job-related task a week, if you want networking to count), and you can’t do [some reward] until you do. That’s what I usually do when I have something unpleasant to tackle, anyway.

    4. danr*

      Google is your friend… Search for the field that you’re in and ‘jobs’ or ‘position’. See what comes up and decide if it’s useful or not. Many college placement job boards are online these days, so see what you can find. If there are companies that you think you’d like to work for, search for the websites and find the jobs or careers listings. Google can help there too. Save all links offline in a document with commentary, as well as bookmarking them in your browser. The document tells you where you’ve been and where you’re going.

  31. Jill*

    What can you do when you can’t stall one job offer long enough to see if you get the one you are holding out for? I just got offered a job that I’m not as keen on, but my final interview for the job I really want to take is not for another 10 days and I know I can’t keep the first company waiting that long. The second job is better paying, less of a commute, and more family friendly by having a child care facility on site. I really want it. But if I turn down the job I got offered and don’t get this one, then I am left with no job. I really don’t want to be left with no job, but I don’t want to be stuck with the first one if I get offered the second.

    1. BRR*

      There’s not much you can do. You might consider contacting the second job and say you have a pending offer and see if they’ll push up the interview but I feel like that might be a stretch.

    2. Marie*

      I know someone will disagree with me, but sometimes you have to do what is best for YOU (and your family) not other people because the people who hired you won’t be the ones at your deathbed, the ones who need help to get through college or make you smile at Thanksgiving dinner. If the other job you’re waiting on is better for your and your family, then you should take it if you get it and back out of the first without hesitation or guilt.

      1. BRR*

        I’m one of those people who disagree with you. I couldn’t in good conscience accept a position and work at it for a few weeks then quit not to mention it’s incredibly unprofessional and might come back to get you later.

        1. Marie*

          You’re absolutely entitled to disagree, but to me, life is just too short to turn down a better opportunity because you think you ‘owe’ a company or you’re worried about what someone else will think of you, especially when that job is higher paying and will allow you to provide more for your family and the shorter commute will give you more time to spend with them. We work to live, not live to work. So she should accept this job so she has a means of providing for her family in case the other one works out, but I do think if she second jobs comes through and is a better fit for her interests and family, she should take it. You have to take care of yourself and your family in this world because no one else will do it for you.

      2. fposte*

        Though I think even if you’re setting aside moral considerations, it’s important to remember that those are burned bridges at Company A, so if they’re a big deal or you think you might want to work with anybody on the hiring committee again, factor in the hit your reputation will take.

        1. Marie*

          Honestly, I think employers need to let go of these ‘grudges’ when employees need to move on. If you’re going to blacklist someone for taking an opportunity that gives them better pay, less of a commute AND on site childcare, you’re being a bit too demanding imo.

          1. Stephanie*

            I kind of agree. If someone backs out of your job very early on because they got an offer so good they are happy to burn the bridge, maybe you’re not offering your employees enough.

          2. C Average*

            Speaking only for my own employer, I don’t know that we’d “blacklist” someone in these circumstances, but we’d (rightly, I think) conclude that they were a little bit flaky and undependable, and might indicate as much if asked. And there’d be some reluctance to hire them again, should they be interested in working for us.

            Now, if they’d worked for us at least long enough for us to form a good impression of them and THEN left for these types of reasons, honestly, we’d be happy for them and wish them well.

    3. MisterPickle*

      I’d contact the 2nd job and ask them if they can move things along faster. I don’t see how you have anything to lose by asking.

  32. UselessGraduate*

    Any tips on how to get ‘any’ job as a stop gap when you’re a graduate who just can’t get hired because employers think you’re too overqualified because of your degree, but don’t have enough experience if you take it off?

      1. Red*

        I also temped when I hit this wall with a fresh MSA. After about a year, I was able to move into a temp-to-hire position and half a year later became a permanent employee. This method isn’t ideal (lots of uncertainty and a slow pace, plus you may not be able to get into work more than tangentially related to your master’s degree), but it’s wages and experience and something to put on your resume (at the very least, it is proof that you can show up to work).

    2. AdminAnon*

      Volunteer! It will help you build experience and get references. Or you can do what I did and become an AmeriCorps VISTA–I had an amazing experience, earned a paycheck, gained an additional $5K to put towards my student loans, and ended up getting hired on. Best decision I’ve ever made :)

    3. BRR*

      Do you mean any as in full-time or any as in any? My SO is finishing a PhD in the humanities and was able to get a retail job. It’s not great but some money > no money.

      Also do you know that’s why you’re not getting hired or are you guessing? Are you making it to the interview stage or getting no response for your resume/cover letter?

      1. Mints*

        If OP means retail, I wouldn’t even bother with resume and cover letter. I’d fill out the online application completely (with school listed) but not attach more. Also the following up is different for retail. I think best practice is apply online then call or drop in in person and introduce yourself and ask about next steps.
        Lastly, they really value open availability, so make sure you list that

  33. BRR*

    Continuing the trend of “is it gross to do at your desk” (maybe we need to keep a master list?), how does everybody feel about using eye drops? My eyes have decided to protest staring at a monitor all day and I’m hoping eye drops will help. Nobody can see into my cube from their desk. They would have to look into my area while walking by.

    Also if anybody has any tips in battling eye strain they would be appreciated. I am already using eye drops, my new glasses have an anti-glare coating, and I do the stare at something far away thing every so often.

    2. Kai*

      I don’t think this would bother me. If you can turn your head away from your coworkers, that helps. But either way it’s not a big deal.

    4. LBK*

      Try playing with the brightness of your monitor. Too bright is usually what gives people problems, but I’ve also had monitors that were too dark (or too low contrast) so my eyes hurt from straining to read text on the screen. Maybe also make sure the focal length and the fit of your glasses on your face is right – I get headaches if my frame is slightly bent and one lens is closer to my eye than the other. Although if they’re new I’d assume they’re freshly adjusted.

      I don’t have any issue with eye drops, but I’ve been using contacts for a decade now so eye stuff doesn’t easily phase me.

      1. Red*

        Seconding this! Look into f.lux as well. It’s a little app you can use to match changes in your monitor’s warmth and brightness to the light/dark cycle in your area and the type of lighting in your office. It helped me stop making that O_________O face at my monitor during the winter.

    5. B-*

      I don’t think using eyedrops is gross…sometimes you need to use them. It’s not like you’re leaving any remnants of anything, and it’s quiet.

      Is it the lighting? I worked under fluorescent light without any natural lighting and I would get headaches from it. I’ve turned off lights above me or put pieces of paper over them to block them out. I know that facilities can have a field day with that sort of thing.

      One place I worked turned off nearly all of the ceiling lights and we practically worked in the dark. It was soooooooo much better than the fluorescent light option.

      1. BRR*

        I have a theory it’s the lighting. We moved spaces not too long ago and it wasn’t bothering me at all before. I was next to a window. Now I’m in the exact middle of the floor and after a couple weeks my eyes started killing me. I have reduced the lighting over my desk from three bulbs to one, I might ask them to take out the last one. There’s still too much fluorescent lighting from other nearby lights that I can’t control though. It’s awful, my eyes are blood shot at the end of the day and people have been expressing concern because of how they look.

        1. Natalie*

          Ask if they can install a filter on the fixture. That may be better than just reducing the number of bulbs.

        2. AnonAsAlways*

          As I understand it, fluorescent lights flicker constantly. Your brain makes a continuous stream of input from it, but it does affect you. Simply putting a lamp nearby that is NOT fluorescent will fill in the “gaps” of the flours cent flicker, and save your eyes/brain strain. Try it. Report back. :-)

    6. HeyNonnyNonny*

      If you were stealthy about it, I don’t see a problem. My bigger issue is smells and sounds.

      I use computer glasses sometimes. They’re yellow and look incredibly nerdy, but it does seem to help. I got the cheapo ones for maybe 20 bucks online.

    7. Sascha*

      I think the criterion for “is it gross?” is if debris is left behind. Nails, flossing, etc. Putting drops in your eyes is not messy, unless you’re just really terrible at it.

    8. Jamie*

      Wouldn’t bother me at all, although I’m really impressed you can do this yourself. Whenever I need eyedrops my husband has to pin me to the bed and hold my eyes open so he can get them in there. Like you’d do for a dog. I can’t put eye drops in myself because my eyes clench too tightly. My brain knows I need them but my eyelinds say, no way missy!

      1. Ezri*

        I’m like this too, about anything near my eyes. I can’t even wear contacts – the eye-doctor made a valiant effort, but I have eyelid muscles like steel traps.

      3. EG*

        I’m the same way with eyedrops. The only trick I’ve found is to have my husband put the drops in the corners of my eyes while my eyes are closed. Then I blink a few times and the eyedrops roll into my eyes without too much hassle. I just can’t stand the cold drops hitting my eyes but this way works somehow.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          That’s what I was going to suggest–it doesn’t trigger the eyelid-slamming-shut thing the way putting them straight in does. I sometimes miss, so that’s why I started doing that. Especially after I poked myself really hard in the eye with a pinkeye drop dispenser and had to wear an eyepatch for a week.

      4. ClaireS*

        I have the exact same problem! If you need to be pinned down to receive the drops, then maybe done do it at your cube. ;)

      6. Christine*

        I gently pull my lower eyelid down to create a gap between my eyelid and my eye, and drop the drops in the gap. That’s how my eye doctor taught me to do it when I was a kid. Before that, I had to be held down.

      7. Jamie*

        Replying to everyone with the tip about how to do them – thanks! My eyes only get dry at work and the eye doc gave me some drops, but never thought I’d be able to use them. I will give this a try when I get home!

      8. Witty Nickname*

        I have to pull my lower lid down a bit and put the drops in the little pocket that forms there, and then blink a lot to distribute them. Before I learned that trick, I couldn’t use drops at all. I wore contacts for a good 10 years before I learned that trick (I still only use drops once every few months, but at least I can do it when I need them now).

        (I used a similiar trick when my son needed drops for pink eye. I had him close his eyes loosely, put the drop on, then had him close them as tight as he could and then blink a lot. That would pull just enough of the drop into his eyes, but not freak him out and make him clench them so I couldn’t get them in at all).

        1. Witty Nickname*

          Obviously, I should have read ahead! It’s kind of comforting to know I’m not the only one who has so much trouble putting drops in my eyes! Contacts are no big deal for me, but drops and that stupid air machine at the eye doctor’s are terrible!

          1. Kali*

            The air machine makes me jump and giggle like a school girl. Which then makes me giggle more out of embarrassment. It’s like waiting for a jack-in-the-box!

    9. Mephyle*

      I agree that it is not gross, as other people have said, because there is no debris.

      Nevertheless, I can imagine that it could bother people who are extra-sensitive about eyes being touched (those who can’t use contact lenses because they can’t get over the fingers-in-eyes part).

      However, given that you’re in a cube, I don’t think that should force you to go to a more private place to put in your eye drops. It seems fine to me.

    10. Lia*

      I have pretty bad dry eye and have to use drops daily. Can you get an anti-glare filter or privacy screen for your monitor? That really helped me at a previous job.

    11. matcha123*

      I use them at times. But it’s because literally every other person in Japan does too.
      In my old job, I’d look around the room and always catch someone with their head tilted back, dropping liquid into their eyes from some crazy height.
      I need to pull open my eyelid and force the drops into my eyes…

      Now I’m going to use my menthol eye drops.

    12. MisterPickle*

      Not gross at all.

      Also: you may want to investigate a utility called f.lux https://justgetflux.com/ that subtly adjusts your screen brightness by time of day. I don’t use it, but I have friends who swear by it.

      (the Usual Disclaimers: I have no relationship with whoever developed this software)

    13. CTO*

      I use eye drops at my desk occasionally, and I don’t think it’s gross at all. It makes no noise, it doesn’t leave any traces behind, and it’s over in just a few seconds. No one has ever even noticed. I do, however, keep my bottle of eye drops sitting on my desk for just a little while afterward in case people happen to stop by and think I was crying, haha.

    14. Apollo Warbucks*

      I find my eyes get dry and itchy in the office, having a couple of small plants around my desk helps.

    15. Bea W*

      GAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH! ANything with eyes squicks me out.

      I think eye drops are appropriate at the desk particularly if you use them because you stare at a monitor all day, especially shielded by cubicle walls. It’s not like changing contact lenses. You can turn to face the wall when you do it in case anyone walks by.

      Take frequent eye breaks by looking away from your monitor for a minute. I read that sitting 20-24″ from your monitor helps.

      1. LCL*

        Decide how far away you prefer to sit from your monitor, measure that distance, then make another eye appointment and have the Dr write a prescription specifically for that. That’s what I did. Dr said reading glasses and computer glasses aren’t necessarily the same prescription.

    16. danr*

      Not gross at all. I did it all the time, and no one ever noticed… and the folks around me notice everything.

  34. I HATE CUSTOMERS/SALES*

    Any advice for breaking out of the customer service/sales mould? All my experience is in customer service with a few awful sales call center jobs and because it is all I have experience in, it is all anyone will hire me in which is unfortunate because I hate this kind of work and I’m not suited to being a pushy sales girl. How can I transfer this experience to working in something like admin? I am so unhappy being stuck in sales it is affecting my mental health :(

    1. LBK*

      Maybe look for a client/relationship manager position? A lot do still have some aspect of sales, but it’s not direct selling to people off the street, more like getting people to re-up or sign up for a new service. The advantage is that since they’re existing customers you already have a level of trust and familiarity built in, so it’s less stressful to have a conversation with them.

      1. Dasha*

        Ditto client services or client relations. Have you thought about doing inside sales at a good company? Inside sales can mean different things at different companies but it might be more up your alley?

    2. brightstar*

      The thing about customer service experience is that you know how to talk to anyone, remain calm no matter how someone is speaking to you or under stressful situations, and that can be a benefit in any type of position. You’ve dealt with all types of personality types and know how to get your point across.

  35. B-, my blood type*

    For those that hire out there: What are your opinions regarding candidate’s Linkedin profiles? My profile is purposefully paltry. Frankly, I really dislike having personal info on public display. (I’m just a private person with nothing exciting to hide.) I’m going to be looking for my next gig in 2015 (I mostly do contract work), so will a lack of public info make me less desirable to a potential employer? Meanwhile, I’ve seen Linkedin profiles of people who aren’t the best in the biz tout themselves like they are the best dang thing since sliced bread, even claiming they’re an expert at something they clearly are not. If I should put myself out there, as much as I’m not crazy about the idea, how do I distinguish myself from the chaff without sounding like a braggart?

    1. CAA*

      What do you want your LinkedIn profile to do for you? When I’m hiring and need a hard-to-find skill, I do search LinkedIn for keywords and reach out to people who might be interested. I’ve hired a couple people this way, so if you want people like me to be able to find you, it’s to your own advantage to put more work related details out there.

      If I already have your resume, I don’t usually look at your LinkedIn profile unless I think we have connections in common. In that case, I just use the “get introduced” tool to get a list of people I can ask about you.

  36. Kai*

    Anyone wanna commiserate about a long commute?

    I have a job that’s decent other than the 1.5 hour commute each way. I take the train and then a bus, so at least I can read or look at my phone rather than having to drive, but it’s still long. Sometimes the transit is unreliable in bad weather, and in the winter the cold and darkness in the morning can be just miserable.

    I’m not really sure what I’m looking for here, other than to know I’m not alone…

    1. De Minimis*

      In the same boat, except driving all the way….I live in a bigger city but have to drive to a much smaller town about 60 miles from my house. I thought it was a good idea to move there because it seemed like there’d be better job opportunities for my wife, but hasn’t worked out that way and the whole thing has been expensive.

      I’ve also used up more vacation time due to bad weather [we rarely shut down my work] than I probably would have if we’d lived closer.

      The only good part is I encounter no traffic on the drive to work, and only have a tiny bit coming home.

    2. HAnon*

      My commute was 1.5 hours for several months this year (each way). I recently moved to be closer to the interstate because (which cut down a little bit of time), but it’s still almost an hour.

      I think the thing for me was I had to come to a place of either 1) change the situation (move or look for a different job) or 2) accept the situation and know that this is just part of the job for me at this time (which means I can’t get pissy about it when I’m sitting in traffic). I listen to a lot of audio books, new cds, etc. I also know to set the expectation that I’m not going to be able to meet up with friends or attend events that begin before a certain time. Sometimes it seems unfair when I see friends with short commutes, but I have to remind myself that’s a choice I’ve made (sticking with this job), so I can’t complain about it. But it took me about a year to get to this more “zen” mindset about my commute…

    3. Felicia*

      My commute is 1.5 hours each way and sometimes it makes me cry it’s so horrible. It’s the same way most people go on the subway, so it’s so crowded and i never get to sit. Moving Oct 1 though, so I’ll be much closer! I hate when my coworkers complain about their 30 minute commutes, or stay an hour late at work, and i leave on time, and they’re still home first.

      1. Kai*

        Yeah, that frustrates me too. Plus I end up having to take off a lot more of my personal time–yesterday I had a 3:20pm dentist appointment, but I had to leave the office at 1:30 to make sure I’d get there in time.

        1. Felicia*

          I hate that too! Most of the time I take “off” is spent in transit. Luckily the neighbourhood i’m moving that is much nearer to my work is much nicer and better for where I want to live than where i currently live, so that’s a win win. I just hate that if I leave at 4:30 and my coworker leaves at 5:30, we both get home at 6.

    4. Dasha*

      I moved for a new job because the commute would have been 1.5 hours each way (or longer depending on traffic and weather) and although I love my job I miss my friends and family… maybe my experience might make you feel better your commute? :)

      1. Kai*

        It’s definitely a trade-off! We COULD move closer, but my fiance and I love our apartment and neighborhood. Plus I keep hoping that I’ll eventually land a job closer to home. I always think “just a few more months…” although it’s stretched into a few years now.

    5. evilintraining*

      Yeah, that’s the only thing I hate about my job! I drive 23 miles each way on one of the most congested and asshat-filled highways. I can’t believe some of the things I see people do behind the wheel. I have zero hope of moving closer because we live in the house GH grew up in and won’t give up on, and zero hope of the company moving closer to my home because we’re near the airport and we manufacture food for the airlines. But I love my job and don’t know if I’d have such a great position and fabulous manager somewhere else. That’s always a crapshoot. *sigh*

    6. Katie*

      I have been out of work for several months and have an interview for a job, but it’s about a 100 minute commute each way and while I desperately need work, I might just turn it down if I get it because I really don’t think I can sustain doing that for very long at all without getting exhausted, burned out and depressed, especially because it is a bus commute and I get bus sick unless I just stare out the window so I can’t read to pass the time.

        1. Katie*

          I don’t really enjoy listening to books on tape, but that’s just me. I think turning it down would be for the best simply because it would become unsustainable long term. I think after a month I’d be so over travelling 4 hours a day, I’d be calling in sick very frequently.

          1. EG*

            I understand. I drive almost an hour to work each day, and then the hour home again. I pass the time with the radio. For me the drive home is like quiet time to unwind before I come through the front door to deal with dinner, dog, and husband.

            1. Katie*

              And the 100 minute commute is just the bus, by the time I get to the bus station from home and then from the bus station to the job, it’s easily 2 hours.

    7. CollegeAdmin*

      I drive 26 miles each way every day on Route 128 (Boston area). Without traffic, it would take 45 minutes, but during rush hour, aka the time I have to get to work, it takes 1.5 hours. Sometimes, I wish my commute was by train, since then I could read while I traveled. I can’t focus on audiobooks, so I stick with music in the car.

      What’s really sad is that I hate my job so much that sometimes the commute is the best part of my day.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, that’s a long way. At least you don’t have to drive. I wish I had a train commute here–I’m on the other side of town and it takes twenty minutes, tops, but it’s a harrowing and annoying twenty minutes. People suck at driving.

    9. Mints*

      Ugh, me. My commute is 1.5 – 2 hours. It’s mostly a train, but then a 40 minute walk or a very crowded bus. It’s the worst. The only upside is I get to read on the train. But I’d much rather be home early and read at home.
      True story: A few times when I’ve gotten half days, I’d be excited to get home early, and got home at the same time as my boyfriend. We leave for work around the same time. It sucks hard.
      (I am job hunting)

    10. Who are you?*

      In past jobs my commute was sometimes as long as 90 minutes one way. And 4 years ago I worked about 30 minutes away (all highway travel) but bad weather would grind the commute to a halt. Since I lived in northern New England at the time January through March were hellish on my commute. I feel your pain!
      I’m lucky now. I live literally 7 minutes from my workplace (and no, I don’t telecommute). The bad part of that is I’m part of the skeleton crew for all bad weather/emergency issues.

    11. Red*

      My worst commute was grad school. I was commuting between Providence and Boston, and hated driving, so naturally I took the MBTA train between the cities. Then I had to take the red line to the green line, and the green line out to the middle of nowhere. Usually, all told for one day, not counting time spent waiting on a train, I wasted 5 total hours in commute. Graduation was such a relief. (To say nothing of the horrible rains and snows that year! Talk about uphill both ways in the snow.)

      1. TL*

        Ug, the green line is always f*cked.
        I have a ~40 minute commute, 30ish on the red line, 10ish walking, and I actually rather enjoy it in the evenings, though not so much in the mornings.
        My roommate wanted to look into living off the green line or the orange line before we moved (she lived off the green line and did green to red) but I put my foot down and now that we’re living off the red line, no transfer, she tells me quite frequently how much better life is.

        On a side note, any other Texas-to-Boston transplants want to comment on Boston traffic? After living in Austin and a brief stint in Houston, I gotta say, Boston traffic (besides the rude factor) seems much preferable than the major cities in TX.

      2. Lizzie*

        I had a classmate who did basically the same last year. I suppose one does what one’s gotta do, but I think I’d lose my mind.

    12. Gene*

      After 6 months with a 30 mile, 45 minute commute if I left on time, 1 hour+ if I left 5 minutes later, I swore I would never do that again. I now have the longest commute I’ve had in 30+ years, about 15 miles, and 20 minutes, against normal commute patterns. There’s one choke point, a drawbridge that blocks me an average of once per month.

      Best commute ever, even shorter than when I was on board the USS Enterprise, was at Nuclear Power School in Vallejo, CA. Literally across the street.

    13. SD Cat*

      Mine’s an hour drive, which is kind of annoying, but at least on local roads you’re moving most of the time (I drive). I’m an intern right now, but if I end up working there as a regular employee, I’ll move eventually a bit closer in.

    14. Lizzie*

      My current commute is about that long (I’ve only been at it 3 weeks), although if I leave the house 5 minutes earlier I can shave off about 15 minutes. The 20 minute walk between the bus stop and my actual workplace is going to be brutal in the winter, though. A friend offered to carpool, but she has a different position with longer hours, and I’m not sure I want to commit to spending extra (unpaid) time at work.

  37. Anonyby*

    I’ve been seeing a few job ads that mention the need to handle confidential information… How would I address that in a cover letter? I’ve been in positions where I’ve handled money (including large purchases made in cash), had access to accounts, had access to credit card information…

    1. Ann Furthermore*

      I think you could highlight it in your cover letter by saying that you understand the sensitive nature of this information, and you treat other people’s data the way you’d want your own treated, and your own personal rule is to never access that information unless there is a business need to do so. Or something along those lines.

    2. Helka*

      Just state it! “I have experience in handling sensitive information securely, such as [how you managed account access] and [how you handled credit card info], as well as handling large cash purchases for the company, up to amounts of $[amount of your highest cash purchase].” Build from there.

      That’s what I’ve got for mine, I’m up to my neck in credit cards and social security #s/EINs and I’ve been adapting to changing procedures for handling that info as my company updates and changes its security practices.

  38. Selkie*

    I took the job in Edinburgh! The London interviews were a bit disappointing to be honest. I’m now going to be the database officer for a national charity. SCORE.

    So after nearly ten months of searching – I have my first graduate job. I feel amazing. So so so happy.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Inverness. I could spare ONE day, so I thought about it and decided that since I’ve wanted to see Loch Ness and Urquhart Castle from childhood, that’s what I would do. The sleeper train is another bucket-list item and I won’t waste an entire day riding back. I found a seat on a half-day shared tour so I won’t have to schlep around by myself. The rest of the time I think I might spend at Leakey’s Bookstore and do some shopping.

          But Edinburgh is on for next visit, for sure. And for more than one day. :D

  39. ineloquent*

    Hi! I’m hiring my first person next week. I’m more than a bit nervous about interviewing. What’s a good tactic for being comfortable interviewing and making the other person comfortable as well?

    1. Sascha*

      Recognize that silence is okay. Talk calmly and not too fast, and let the candidate have time to think before giving answers.

      My manager will talk too much and gets uncomfortable with silences, so even though he keeps saying “Take your time, I just want you to be comfortable,” etc etc, his nervous energy makes the candidates uncomfortable anyway.

    3. AdminAnon*

      I interviewed candidates for the first time earlier this year and the first few interviews were excruciating. However, once I relaxed and started asking personal/casual questions at the beginning, it got a lot easier. Obviously nothing too personal, but maybe things like “So I see you just moved here from X city; how do you like the area so far?” “Have you tried X restaurant” etc. That way you can get a sense of the candidate’s personality and hopefully get comfortable with each other before diving in.

    4. hildi*

      I haven’t done a lot of interviewing, but I use this in my training classes: I treat it like just a conversation. I think the knowledge it’s THE INTERVIEW puts so much pressure on you to perform or something. But I did conduct one interview recently and that’s what I kept thinking leading up to it. We’re just two people having a converstion about who they are, what they can do, and how that fits up with what I need here.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        I think starting out with a bit of conversation really helps to set this tone. How is your week going, what are you up to this weekend, did you see [neutral but ubiquitous cultural phenomenon], stuff like that. Share a little bit about yourself. When you write your interview script, think about how you’re going to transition from one question to the next. All this helps make it feel like a friendly, professional conversation.

        And I’ve found that when you’re able to really put people at ease, their true experience comes out — good and bad! It helps the great folks share really honestly about what they’re good at and why…and it somehow also prompts the not-so-good-fit people to share the weirdest, most inappropriate stuff.

    5. Brett*

      Keep the pace. If someone starts rambling on with an answer, don’t be afraid to cut in and transition to the next question whether it is a followup or a new topic. You will do them and yourself a favor doing that.

    6. Witty Nickname*

      I have no advice, but wanted to say good luck! I’m sitting in on interviews for the new person on our team next week, and it’s my first time doing that. I’m glad I am going to get some experience doing that before I have to start doing interviews myself.

  40. AnonPhenom*

    In the continuing job saga I have going on over here, I have an interview on Monday. I need to get this job because I won’t make next month’s rent otherwise. It’s a panel intereview with three people, which I’ve never done so any tips would be welcomed.

    I’m trying to prep for this, but I’m just so tired of looking for jobs it’s getting hard to stay motivated.

    1. TheExchequer*

      Good luck with the interview. I’ve done panel interviews – smile and look at each of them when they ask questions. If they repeat questions do not, I repeat, do not do as I did and point out that they repeated a question. (“As I said earlier” is not your friend). At some point, it’s pretty likely that more than one person will ask you if you have questions, so it’s helpful to be able to have three questions ready to go.

    2. Joey*

      Make sure you’re getting eye contact with everyone. Repeat their names and write them down after they introduce themselves. Look for opportunities to ask questions that are specific to each panel member. At the same time remember that theres probably one hiring manager whose opinion is probably going to carry the most weight.

  41. chewbecca*

    I just wanted to thank everybody who was talking about customizing Outlook on Wednesday. I never thought about trying to set up rules and customizing my view settings.

    I’m on a distribution list that rarely applies to me or my job and a coworker who unnecessarily replies all to those emails. It’s been nice to be able to filter those to a folder I can check when I have time as opposed to having them clog my inbox.

    The commenters here are the best. I remember a while back there was a thread about the wonders of Excel that inspired me to do a little research and see how I could use it to help my job. It really helped streamline one of my duties.

    I’ve learned so much from this blog!

  42. Cruciatus*

    I have to transfer 70+ case studies into Xara Web Designer 9 from MS Word. This is not what I was hired for at any point–this is something new that has come up as they try to transfer the cases from paper into electronic/online form (I’m an administrative assistant). I find I want to shut down whenever my boss brings it up. I had a crappy tutorial from the IT people over a year ago (haven’t had time to work on them, and frankly, don’t now). I’ve looked at tutorials online but they never do what I need them to do and I feel totally overwhelmed by this. Now he’s pressuring me to have at least 1 soon, though he knows I’m busy. There’s no option for me except to do it, but I get so frustrated when I try that, like I said, I want to shut down and ignore the problem. How can I get over that? (And “just get over it” won’t really help me…tried that. Still overwhelmed about it…).

    1. Colette*

      What’s the first step?

      I find when I find something overwhelming, I’m often OK with taking the first step – in this case, it might be to investigate the types of files you can export from the old tool. Once you do that, you look at the next step, which might be figuring out what Word can import.

      Enough small steps and the big intimidating task is done.

      1. fposte*

        I like this. I also think of it as subtasks (basically, first, second, and third steps, I guess) to articulate what I actually concretely do, not just what the name of the task is. Usually when I’m stalled it’s because I haven’t really figured out what it means process-wise to do the task. So–check Xara support on importing docs, run one sample, identify failure points, maybe?

      2. Agile Phalanges*

        Yep. I totally commiserate with Cruciatus on wanting to shut down just thinking about the onerous task–that’s how my mind works, too. So I convince myself that I’ll just tackle the very first thing (which might be reading help files and/or Google to figure out what I’m doing). I find that usually, once I get entrenched in that first step, I actually want to keep going. I’m a slave to momentum–once I’m doing one task, I’m likely to keep doing it until something else forces me to stop. So then it’s not that bad.

        Funny thing is, even with tasks I realize aren’t as bad as I feared, I STILL want to just shut down the next time I have to think about doing it. My brain just decides that that task is no fun, even if I’ve since learned that it’s not that bad (or even that I kinda like it).

    2. Barbara in Swampeast*

      What is it you have to do?
      To me, case studies in Word are just documents, not webpages. Do you need to make the documents available online or do you need to put the text of the case studies onto webpages?

      If it is to get the text onto webpages: Has the webmaster provided you with the template of the page you are to use?
      Are you responsible for uploading the webpages onto your company’s website? Do you know how to do that?

      1. Cruciatus*

        First step is to get them into webpages with a template I create (which is where I’m failing early on). Once they’re finally created then IT will create some sort of site for me to post them with a password (since these cases can’t be posted openly). That part will all come later but for now I just have no clue where to start. And another branch of our school has them all online! But my boss will have to beg them to use their files (according to him). I really wanted to show him today’s post about sharing things and how it benefits the company…

        1. Cruciatus*

          To clarify…the cases have been in Word documents from the beginning. I currently print them off and make the appropriate number of copies for the people studying them. Now all the info in the Word documents is to be transferred to the Xara Web Designer thing…so I have to go page by page (for 70+ documents) and create a webpage for each case with links to all the information on the newly created webpages (patient history, diagnosis, etc.)

          1. fposte*

            In addition to Barbara’s suggestion, try Googling around for Xara templates that you might be able to use or tweak, rather than building one from scratch.

        2. Barbara in Swampeast*

          It weird that you have to create your own template. I would think the school would have a standard design they want everyone to follow. Maybe contact IT and see if they have a basic template you can start with and modify for your needs.

          Have you tried YouTube videos? The Xara website has some videos, but I wasn’t able to find a beginning video very easily. They might be on YouTube.

          One consolation is once you have the template done, its done and you use it for all the cases.

          Good luck!

    3. A Non*

      I’ve had similar problems with freezing up, especially when I feel that I’m in a no-win situation and will get criticized no matter what I do.

      What’s worked for me sometimes is to figure out the first, simplest step – something like ‘open the document’ or ‘go to the web page’. Something so simple there’s no question about how to do it. Then once I’m looking at the thing, then my brain unsticks and starts recognizing the next steps I need to do. I’m not sure what’s going on or how this gets past it, but it seems to work.

  43. Gina*

    Ever have one of those days where you feel like you can’t do anything right? Every time you talk to someone you say something wrong, or every request you make should have been made to someone else and now the one you made it to thinks you’re stupid. Everyone acts like you’re wasting their time even if it’s the same routine you all do every day.

    1. Magda*

      Yes. I really love my job overall, but a few weeks back I caught myself wondering “is ‘eating shit’ in my job description? Because that’s all I’m doing lately.”

    2. Gina*

      Oh, and every time you walk up to someone and start to ask them somehting, it turns out they were artfully concealing a phone the whole time and you just interrupted.

    3. Amanda*

      I’m having that kind of day. Missed a deadline this morning, scrambling to re-schedule things in that wake. Behind on a few major things – not for lack of working on them, just for the sheer mounds of work to be done and the fact that for the last 2-3 days I’ve been busy in evenings with my own life, not work, for once. I hate that feeling like a normal person comes with so much added stress. :(

  44. Awkward Palmtree*

    I posted here a few months ago about applying to go back to university to finish my degree after suffering with depression and having to leave my previous course before the end a few years ago. I had issues getting my previous academic tutor to write me a reference and I was in a massive self doubtey, scared rut with it all. However, I’m absolutely over the moon to say that I eventually applied and was accepted onto my chosen course last month and I’ll be starting to work again towards my degree later this month! Squee!
    Contacting my personal tutor for a reference turned out to be a massive lost cause. He did not return my calls or answer my followup email. While I’m quite disappointed that my former tutor no longer wants to know me, luckily one of my mentors at work agreed to write a reference for me and he wrote me such a glowing reference I wish I had just asked him in the first place!
    I’m truly elated and I am so excited to be finishing what I started, I have never looked forward to a school term starting so much in my life. While I am still a little sad that I did not get to graduate with the rest of my peers I have a new determination to concentrate on my own path and stop comparing myself to anybody else. All that matters in the end is that I’m healthy, happy and moving forward, however twisty that path may be!

    1. Ezri*

      It sounds like things are going well – congrats! I’ve seen quite a few peers leave school, for various reasons, and it can be very hard to go back. Kudos to you for overcoming your obstacles, and good luck moving forward! XD

      As a side note, mentors can be so great. :) I had two really awesome ones in college; having even just one ‘professional’ person who believes in you and pushes you is priceless.

  45. JML*

    Yay, open thread! A question about casual job-hunting via LinkedIn: until last month, I was based in Big East Coast City working for a company that is based in CA. I’ve been with the company for a little over a year. My partner got into a doctorate program in Small East Coast City (400 miles away), and my company very kindly allowed me to relocate and work from home. All is going ok so far, but the problems I had with this job before we left BECC are the same in SECC. My biggest issue is that my work is project-based, but there aren’t enough projects to fill my time (I was hired into a newly created position and it took them a good 6 months to figure out what to do with me), and to make it worse, my boss insists on having his hand in everything and my work is at the bottom of the priority list (it’s client-facing work but client rush jobs take precedence, and there are a lot of rush jobs). I will complete a report, send it to my boss, get feedback a week later, revise immediately, then wait up to 10 days for more feedback/go-ahead to send. In a word, I’m bored. There are great things about this job, like the pay and the benefits, and working from home has been great– when things were slow in the office I had to sit there, but when things are slow here, I can do laundry or watch a movie or play with my dog. So I’m considering a CASUAL job search at this point, and that’s where my dilemma is.

    In the past, recruiters and hiring managers came to me quite often; I have 10 years of experience in a specialized field, a good reputation, worked for a major company before leaving to take my current position. It would be great if that could happen now and I could find a new position that’s either remote or based in my new city, but my LinkedIn profile lists me as being in Big East Coast City rather than Small East Coast City, and I’m unsure about whether I should change it. The pros for changing would be that people could find me more easily; there’s a lot of growth in this area and a lot of recruiters reaching out for good talent before making jobs public. The cons are that clients are told I’m based in BECC, my work address is still BECC, and a few colleagues at my current company are connected to me via LinkedIn (and many of them don’t even know I relocated, which is effed up in itself but not necessarily my problem). Is there a way to list both cities that I haven’t seen yet? Are there certain privacy settings I can use? Or is there another way to go about a casual job hunt that I’m completely missing? Thanks, all!

    1. Judy*

      You can certainly turn off notifications on any profile changes, so that co-workers would only see the new location if they searched on you. I’ve done that in the past when I’ve updated my profile, but don’t want everyone to see that I’m doing it.

      I would change my location without notifications. Then local recruiters when searching would see you.

  46. kas*

    Soo I’m pretty much fed up with my job. I used to love the people I work with and hate my actual work but now I can’t stand the people I work with and can tolerate my work. I have to deal with several different departments and that can include reporting different types of issues with our website, customers etc. However, I’ve stopped reporting issues as everyone makes you feel like you’re bothering them even though it’s their job! For example, I noticed an error on the company website while using a specific browser and I reported it to the person that handles those issues and his response was to just use another browser, nothing was done. There’s a lot of “ask Department X” or “did you check with Department Y?” Why would I ask Department Y when that’s not a part of their job? It’s like I.T. telling me to ask the billing department to reset my account/fix technical issues when they don’t even have the resources to do so at my work. No one ever handles a situation even though it’s their department that is suppose to handle it. The managers are even worse sometimes and don’t think this is an issue. I can’t take it anymore …

    2. HAnon*

      kinda sounds like time for a vacay. If you have the time, I’d suggest unplugging and getting away for a few days, or even a week if you can manage it. Reconnect with some people and passions that bring you joy outside of work. It may give you some perspective about your job and help you realize that you can live with it for a while because you enjoy the work, or give you the clarity that you do need to start looking for something else and put a plan of action together. Sometimes just being day-in and day-out in a frustrating situation can affect you more than you think. But either way, getting out of the office for a few days can help you reset and come back more refreshed for whatever option you decide.

      2. Natalie*

        And even if you can’t afford to travel, take the time anyway – staycation. Don’t change out of yoga pants for one full day. Nurse a pot of coffee with your favorite novel. Tackle some house project that will be incredibly satisfying to complete. Go hiking. Pull up “X Awesome Free Things To Do In City Y” from the internet and do all of those things. Get a weekday lunch in some part of the city far away from your office. It’ll be awesome.

  47. matcha123*

    Are any of you editors or do any of you do a lot of written work?

    I do translation in Japan, and I have a constant battle with my Japanese colleagues over English language usage.
    I usually refer to Grammar Girl, Websters or the Little Brown Style manual, but when it comes to things like “why it doesn’t sound right to repeat the same phrase over and over,” I am drawing blanks.

    My coworkers are looking for a Golden Rule of English to follow. And while they understand to a certain extent that American English and British English (to narrow it down to those two large ones) have differences, they don’t understand many of the nuances and I don’t know how to explain it to them.

    An example would be using the full name of an event repeatedly, rather than shortening it: The 24th Annual Fair to Present Prizes for Ultra-Cool Artwork Created by Young Artists Between the Ages of 12 and 45. Rather than calling it by various different names such as The Annual Fair or The Fair, they insist on writing out the whole name numerous times in the name of keeping a standard.

    Unfortunately, we don’t use one certain style guide due to the vast number and type of translations we have. And unfortunately, saying, “I am a native speaker of English and gosh-darnit this is correct!” doesn’t fly.
    I understand this is totally different from the typical work-related question asked here, but if anyone has any killer websites filled with grammar and style points please point me in that direction :)

    1. Colette*

      I have nothing to help here, but I’d love to see answers. I work with a large number of people in India, and I also struggle with explaining why something is not correct.

    2. Elysian*

      This reminds me of the Michael Scott Dunder Mifflin Scranton Meredith Palmer Memorial Celebrity Rabies Awareness Pro Am Fun Run Race for the Cure.

      My (totally not serious) suggestion is to play for them clips of the Office that exemplify confusing points in the English language. There’s an Office episode for everything.

      In this case, could you maybe just explain to them that when names are long people will tend to zone out and your point will get lost or people will lose interest? Its just generally accepted principle in English (I don’t know about other languages) that the most concise way to express your point is often the best way.

    3. Magda*

      When I took journalism classes, our style guides usually mentioned that it was acceptable to shorten terms like the one you mentioned. Would it be worth buying an AP or Chicago style guide? Failing that, maybe you could find English-language examples from, say, the NY Times or other major publications.

      When I lived in Japan, I had a Japanese friend ask me to explain what it meant when people made air quotes with their fingers. We went around and around for literally an HOUR and I just could not explain it in a way that made sense to her. I felt really bad.

      1. matcha123*

        I’ve definitely spent time explaining that to Japanese friends!
        I just told them in short it means the opposite of what you are saying haha

    4. Gwen*

      Hmm…it’s tough without a standard style guide to point to. For general resources, I’m a big fan of the Purdue OWL, it’s the website for their writing lab & has style guides as well as general writing advice. It was recommended to me by one of my professors and I have continued to use it in editorial work. Honestly, for the most part, I just search “[query] AP style” on Google if I’m unsure. At the magazine I worked at, we had a specific style guide for the magazine (which was about 60% AP style and 40% in-house randomness)…do you think your “I’m a native speaker” trump card would seem more legitimate if it was presented in an official style guide format?

      1. matcha123*

        Style guide trumps me as a native speaker because a style guide is published! I think they have an AP, MLA and Chicago style book in the office, but they are so huge that they are rarely pulled out…

        1. Red*

          A copy of Strunk & White or The Harbrace Manual might help. Most of us wouldn’t agree with these two sources on literally every point, but they do still have a certain cachet. Likewise, Purdue University’s OWL resource website is solid and it’s from a university to boot (prestige!) and is referenced frequently by Ivy League schools (PRESTIGE!!!). Those all have sections on redundancy (BAD!) and conciseness (GOOD!). English in its various regional iterations has its own rhythms and variety in expression is a very strong component of that.

    5. fposte*

      Huh. That’s specific enough that I wonder if there isn’t something ESL-focused out there for style and publications.

      AP style might be a place to go, as might MLA; however, I suspect what you really need is a guide that gives you the rules rationale. It’s an interesting observation, because it’s actually fairly extensive in English, from the way you address people to the way you refer to long titles, that the first time sets the standard and subsequent repetitions evoke it with shorter usages so long as they’re clear.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This.

        I was taught to shorten long titles/names because it is distracting to the reader. The reader loses the meaning of the sentences because of the excessive words in the title/name.

        Another school of thought says that repeating the full title/name indicates the reader was too stupid to understand it the first time.

        Probably a good example of an exception to this is if one was writing an article about the correct titles for British royalty. But under normal circumstances extra words take away from the rest of the material.

    6. Kai*

      You can create your own house style guide that covers little things like this that are specific to your organization. I do freelance editing for a company that mostly follows APA, but they have other little rules that you might not find anywhere else. That’s what I’d recommend. You could make style guides and make sure everyone gets a copy so that it becomes more “official.”

    7. Mephyle*

      For the specific issue of repetition, I found some likely-looking posts and articles using this search (no quotes): {style in English reducing repetition}.

      For the general problem, I joined some translator Facebook groups where fellow translators gripe/ask about this kind of thing (as well as many other issues that arise in freelance translation). Sometimes concrete suggestions are made, other times it just helps to know that these problems are present around the world in many language pairs. The mutual support from these groups is really helpful.

      Another thing you could do is start a blog (if you don’t already have one) where you write articles about English style and translation issues. If you use a pseudonym, you can refer your colleagues to relevant articles and it will look like you’re citing an authoritative source; they won’t know it’s you. If you use the anonymous strategy, and the blog is new, it would probably be a good idea to backdate some articles so it’s not so blatant that the blog just started at the time you began citing it.
      When it comes to grammar and vocabulary issues, I find Michael Swan’s book Practical English Usage invaluable. I haven’t yet found a non-native English speaker’s mistake or question for which I couldn’t find the explanation in that book. You know the sort of thing where it ‘feels’ wrong, but you can’t put your finger on the rule or principle that says why it’s wrong. Swan can.

      1. matcha123*

        I’ve definitely heard of Practical English Usage! It may even be in the office…

        The blog sounds like a good idea, too!

    8. literateliz*

      Oooooh, as a former ALT, I feel your pain.

      This might not work because it’s not a “rule” per se, but for the example you give, could you explain it by likening it to pronoun use? I.e., English uses pronouns much more frequently than Japanese does (which they surely realize), and thus it’s also considered acceptable to use the full name on first reference and “The Fair” thereafter.

      I actually work as an editor (in the U.S.) now and refer to the Chicago Manual of Style all the time, but the questions that seemed to come up with native Japanese speakers were so random that I don’t know that a style guide would have helped!

      1. matcha123*

        Yes! This is so true in all of the jobs I’ve had here!
        I think that my coworkers do understand that, and I do overhear them explaining to the people who’ve submitted requests that English will not always have The One and Only Answer. I’m, you’ve probably met the ojisan who are certain that “patron” could never be used to refer to someone who uses a library and that “customer” is the certainly the best word ;)

    9. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Like others said, maybe invest in an AP Style Guide. Even if it’s not going to be the “official” guide, it is a good guide to writing clearly and concisely and might have them get a better feel for some of those rules.

    10. Anonsie*

      Do you think it might be more useful to have resources that explain why these things read poorly for cultural reasons, rather than as grammatical or style rules? There’s a lot written about the cultural preferences for and against fluffery with word volume, which Japanese heavily favors and English heartily rejects. I’ve heard it called “circular speaking” in Japan before but generally that has negative connotations in English, so I’m not sure if that’s actually a common term (it doesn’t seem to be).

      They might be rejecting a lot of your input here on the grounds that it’s not technically incorrect, and it very well may not be while still being a really bad idea.

      1. matcha123*

        I’ll have to try this next time. My position is that there are times when the document needs to be totally re-written so that it flows naturally when a native speaker reads it.
        My coworkers prefer to use the formats they’ve used for the past 10 – 15 years because they don’t want to explain why they are making changes to the people who write the original Japanese. Then there’s the reality that to an extent we are creating something for a client, even if the “client” is within the same company, but a different department. We don’t get the final word on a lot of things…which is another story heh ^^

        1. Anonsie*

          They might be making the assumption that you’re editing to your own tastes since it already makes sense in English before you get to it. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to introduce the fact that English speakers notice those differences in “foreign” English writing like that and find it really funny/don’t take it seriously anymore when they see it.

          I’m a little bit surprised by this as well, since it’s been my experience that Japanese companies were pretty aware of this difference? Not that I have a ton of experience or anything.

          1. matcha123*

            I think I’m safe in that my coworkers know that I do try to pull up references to back up my statements and they tend to trust that. There aren’t many things I would fight over, because if they’ve been using a phrase for the past 20 years, I’ll go with the flow.

            I’ve found that people have their phrasing that they default to, which isn’t necessarily bad, but I think that English writing calls for variation to be considered good. Japanese writing doesn’t really ask for that variety. And it’s difficult to justify using writing variations in a culture that’s resistant to small changes.

    11. matcha123*

      Thanks for the replies!

      I have been wanting to ask English speakers who are living in English speaking countries questions like this for a while. I am a linguistics major, but I didn’t focus on English grammar as some people assume. There are various styles that have been set before I started working there and will not change despite what I say.

      Concise writing is not a virtue here. I have to convince coworkers that native English speakers reading this document really do not care to read: “Youth leader, Mr. Smith Smath, who currently resides in Wonderland, is on his first trip to Japan where he plans to look at the cherry blossoms with other youth who planted the cherry blossom trees as a symbol of their love of cherry pie, which was introduced to Japan in the Great Cherry Pie Era.”

      I have to thoroughly convince my coworkers so that when the person who wrote the original Japanese “reads” the English translation with their middle-school level English they can tell that person.
      But, based on the replies I see here, I feel a lot better. I didn’t think there was any one overreaching authoritative guide that I could point them to.

      1. Red*

        As a grammatical issue, that is practically a run-on sentence. I would hazard that, like myself, any other English reader going through that sentence will hold their breath through it and start to suffocate. Maybe that explanation will help!

  48. Kay*

    I’m asking this one for my mom and a friend of hers. Does anyone know how difficult it is and approximate costs for starting a 501(c)(3)? I’m sure filing fees vary from state to state, but just a general ballpark will do.

    Also, as they start thinking about embarking on this journey is there anything they should be aware of that you wouldn’t normally think of while starting a business.

    1. acmx*

      I would say less than $200. I started one and for my state it was probably around $90. It’s very easy, just fill out a form or 2.

    2. annie*

      I do! Almost nothing, just whatever your state filing fees are, which could be anywhere from $50 to a few hundred dollars. If you decide to have a lawyer file it all for you, you’ll need to pay for that, but there are a lot of groups that have lawyers who will do this pro bono.

      Keep in mind that you will have some other ongoing costs, such as filing yearly taxes, which you may want to hire a professional to do who deals specifically with nonprofit organizations. You may also need other licenses for your town.

    3. Barbara in Swampeast*

      The major problem with a 501(c)(3) is FUNDING! Do they know where the money will be coming from? It is not as simple as “start it and they will fund it.”

      Start with your state’s Secretary’s office. They should have most if not all forms you will need for your state. At the minimum, you will need Articles of Incorporation (or whatever your state requires) and Bylaws. Nolo.org has a book on how to start a nonprofit. I used it when I started a non-profit.

      The costs could be from very little to a lot depending on legal and CPA costs. I had experience with Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws, so I just filled out the forms from the Missouri Secretary’s office. But your Mom and friend may want to talk to a lawyer if they don’t know what each document does.

      Once the paperwork for the state is done, then they will apply to the IRS.

      And once they start getting money, there are a whole new set of accounting rules for non-profits, so they will need a C.P.A. also.

      1. Red*

        In addition to this fine advice, if the principal of the non-profit-to-be anticipates soliciting funds, any states in which the principal/partners/employees conduct such fundraising may require that person (a solicitor) or the nonprofit to apply for a license to solicit as well.

    4. SouthernBelle*

      When we started ours, the initial incorporation fee was @$75-100, and then the filing fee for the IRS to obtain the 501(c)(3) designation was $400 if you only anticipated raising below a certain amount in (I believe) the next 5 years or $800 if you anticipated raising more than that amount. There were other small costs but these are the ones that I remember offhand. Also, this is in Virginia. The hidden costs deal with time – drafting the articles of incorporation, the bylaws, completing the IRS application and supplemental materials, setting up the systems to support the organization, etc.

      I think that it’s really important to think about the big picture when you’re starting a business (or in your case, a nonprofit). Do you have people willing to serve on the board? Do you have a defined path for the disbursement of funds for the cause you’re supporting? Do you have community partners that will be involved with or benefit from your work? Are there potential conflicts of interest within the ranks and possible community partners? There’s a lot more to consider when starting this kind of journey but it’s so very worth it if it’s something that’s close to your heart.

  49. Felicia*

    So I work from 8:30 – 4:30 and always leave roughly on time (not exactly since i don’t clock watch, but basically) I have enough work to be moderately busy the whole day, but my projects are rarely urgent, so i’ve never had a reason to stay late (yet). If I had a reason, of course I would. But all my coworkers are constantly staying very late (and complaining about it) and complaining about how busy they are. I offer to help (we are a very small team, and everyone sort of helps out with most things), and sometimes they take me up on my offer, but never to the point where I need to stay late. Does anyone else feel weird about being the only person in their office to leave on time? Am I just imagining that they think less of me for when I leave? Does anyone have a job where they never need to leave late in an office full of people who do?

    1. fposte*

      Do you come in earlier than they do? Is your job different than theirs? Are you hourly (or whatever Canada’s equivalent is)?

      1. Felicia*

        My job is different than theirs, mostly, though it’s sort of an everyone helps everyone with everything kind of culture. (which i don’t like, but that’s how it works here). I am not hourly, I get a fixed salary . I would help them, and I would probably be capable, but I can’t unless they tell me what to help them with. I don’t come in earlier than them, but maybe they’re job just has more work than mine? I think i’m nervous because I’m new and not entirely sure about the expectation, but I’ve always assumed that if i have nothing urgent to do I should leave…we don’t get overtime, but if we work overtime we can take lieu time, so it seems dishonest just sitting there and earning that. But then they say it must be nice to leave so early, or ask why I’m leaving, or complain about how late they stay on things that are sometimes a team effort, and i get confused.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          When they say these things can you turn the tables in a nice way? For example: “I will stay if I can help someone in some manner. Just let me know what I can do.”

          1. Ruffingit*

            I totally agree with this. Their passive aggressive comments are uncalled for, I would absolutely bring the issue up in the way NSNR suggests because it nicely gets the point across that you’re happy to help if you can.

      2. JML*

        I used to leave on time every day at my old job (well, 85% of the time), and I had a few co-workers who were always there. Sometimes it was because our workloads were very different and our roles were different, but most of the time it was because we had very different work styles. One day I realized that I was quicker about getting my thoughts together, so emails never took that long to write, and I was faster at some of our Excel tasks. Not better, necessarily, just different. Also: more often than not, they were just workaholics. One of my former co-workers had about 40 days of vacation saved up and our boss was begging her to take them– she refused because she had nowhere to go. I said, “Why not just take a few days here and there, run some errands, go the movies?” She refused, because her husband would be working and she didn’t like doing stuff alone. So… there’s that. Don’t sweat it unless your boss says something to you.

        1. Red*

          One thing I like about working accounting-area stuff is that most of us are REQUIRED to take vacations so that our peers and superiors can make sure we’re not cooking the books! Refusal to take time off is one of the fraud flags.

    2. Beth Anne*

      I worked in a similar job a few years ago. Some of my assignments were time sensitive (which I always did asap) but most of the stuff wasn’t so I would leave just about on time every day and everyone else would stay sometimes 2 hours later!

      Sometimes I felt bad but other times I didn’t especially b/c as time went on I started not liking the position/company.

      I guess a lot of it goes down to people who live to work and others who work to live…and want/have lives outside of work.

    3. Sherry*

      I generally leave on time and don’t feel guilty one bit. :)

      But, I do offer to help those I know need help. I do not offer to help those who just like to complain how busy they are when they spend hours online, taking extra long lunches, etc.

      Don’t feel guilty!

    4. unemplaylist*

      It could be a case of people thinking it looks good to stay late and seem all busy and important. I worked at a place like that. It was one of the many things I hated about the place. People wasted huge amounts of time during the day (including sleeping in the office with the door shut) but boy when 5:00 rolled around they were way too important to leave. If you’re getting your work done and everyone is pleased with your work, be glad you have a life and leave with a clear conscience.

      1. Lizzie*

        +1

        On my first day at my current job, a colleague advised me that getting to work by 6:30 AM and staying until 5 PM is the “cultural norm,” and that doing otherwise would make me stick out. Um…no thanks, I’ll just work efficiently during the reasonable, contract-mandated hours (like many other high-performing employees) and stay out of that pissing contest.

    5. Amanda*

      I work in an office with only one other full-time coworker. We are both quite busy and do totally different but occasionally overlapping things. She is always here until 6 or 7pm at night. I typically leave on time or shortly afterwards. I work hard to make sure I can leave on time since I have family and animal commitments every evening. We were even recently handed down a firm directive to leave on time, and if we feel that our week is overflowing to the point of requiring us to stay late we have to let our boss know. I’m doing that, but coworker still leaves late every night. It’s tough when there’s only two of us and I always feel like I’m slacking. I feel many of the same things you do.

    6. Sharon*

      This sounds like two possible scenarios:
      1. There are certain people who like to make it known how busy they are because they think it makes them look indispensible or more worthy of raises or promotions. They tend to work slowly so that they have to stay late to catch up and then complain bitterly about how overworked they are. (There are also people who do this simply because they’re disorganized and don’t realize it and aren’t intentionally trying to scheme for promotions.)
      2. The management and culture at the company “motivates” everybody through competitions about who can stay later. If you start to notice over time that the people who are promoted or given the best projects are the ones who are so overworked, this is likely to be the culture where you are. It’s not a good thing because it’s a recipe for burnout and when it comes from management like this, they don’t care if people burn out. They just hire more.

      1. C Average*

        An additional possibility: they’re unhappy at home.

        At times when I’ve had stressful living situations (roommates who had boyfriends over all the time, a creepy landlord who swung by without warning, an overly friendly neighbor who wouldn’t take no for an answer), I’ve tended to use work as a refuge. I did it my first year of marriage, too, because I was having trouble adjusting to sharing a home with a husband and two stepkids, and work represented a quiet, clean, orderly place. I wasn’t always necessarily working. Sometimes I’d stay late and surf the net or even read a book. I just didn’t want to go home yet.

        2. hermit crab*

          I’ve done this as well. There were times when I’d come in on the weekends and just read a book in my cube. You never know what’s going on with another person!

  50. Cranky Editor*

    A co-worker and I have been having a discussion on insurance. She is currently on her husband’s insurance, a traditional plan w/co-pays (Plan X), instead of our company’s insurance is a high deductible plan (Plan Z). (You pay out of pocket until you hit your deductible – nearly $6,000) Her husband’s company has informed its employees that if anyone’s spouse has access to a their own insurance plan but chooses to stay with Plan X, his company will charge a rather hefty additional monthly fee. What we were discussing is, how would his company ever know if a spouse had other insurance options? Really just genuinely curious – her husband’s insurance is still better, so she will do what it takes to stay on it, but how would they really know? Are they just relying on the honor system from their employees?

    1. Gina*

      Someone I worked with at a retail job where they had crappy coverage–but still had that penalty for if your spouse had their own crappy coverate–said they don’t do anything to check but there’s a place on the form where it’s obvious that by signing the form you’re declaring you couldn’t have gotten insurance elsewhere. So I guess if you ever had a big claim and they started snooping they could cut you off based on fraud.

    2. MT*

      It would be hard for them to prove. But if they did prove that the couple lied, usually there is an affidavit that they have to sign stating she didn’t have access to insurance. The company could fire the husband and seek any payments they made to the insurance company and some fines. On the extreme end the company could file theft charges against the couple. I have seen some of the big car companies do random audits of their employees insurance listings and then dock the employees pay to get back the money.

    3. Judy*

      The last few years, my husband’s company has required a signed form by the spouse, either they have a job or not. If they have a job, they require a signature from the company with the information of what percent of the cost of the insurance policy does the company pay. If the spouse’s company pays at least 50% of the insurance cost, then the spouse can’t be on the company’s insurance.

      I also know of companies that only allow dependent children on the insurance, no spousal coverage at all.

      My concern would be if there is someone who would report them, they could get in trouble, up to firing. I’ve known people who were fired when they reported a tobacco status that was not correct. (Dude, you reported “not a tobacco user” and then hung out in the smoke shed with the benefits administrator. Really?)

  51. Holly*

    Update: I’ve previously mentioned “my old boss” and how he usually shoots down/invalidates my opinions (when he asks for them, even) and how he has no marketing/writing experience, and generally how unhelpful he has been. Well, he’s been working part-time (as a VP, which is weird to me) for about a month now and recently he’s started coming in for, like, 1-2 hours a day tops. He recently asked me what I was working on because he has no idea what the marketing department is currently doing, even though we have weekly meetings with him. It’s become both frustrating and baffling.

    As one of my older bosses once told me, “he’s made his noose. Let him hang himself with it.” (Or, I’m just waiting it out until he’s fired. Hopefully soon – which is sad to say, because he’s a nice guy, but incompetent as hell.)

    1. EG*

      I work with a couple of folks like this. They’re offsite in another state, but the communication of project updates and their comprehension of basic tasks (that they’ve done for months w/o issue) is now like pulling teeth. My boss is extremely understanding and I don’t let it get to me, but I wish I could figure out why some folks just seem to lose brain cells when they’re not face to face with you each day (some do this even if they are).

  52. TheExchequer*

    So, after less than two months of my new job, the other day I was told I was being put in charge of reviewing someone else’s work. I had to explain to said someone that the words “item name” in a template needed to be replaced with the item name. I’m trying really hard not to do the work myself since I could do it much faster and more efficiently. I’m thinking maybe I should make a “How to Efficiently Create this Form” sheet for him – should I do that or let my supervisor worry about it?

    1. CoffeeLover*

      Instead of making the instruction sheet, just walk him through the steps and tell him to take notes so he’s able to do this himself in the future. Reduces the work you’d have to do since you wouldn’t have to make a sheet, which I find takes a lot of time. Alternatively, you could follow Alison’s advice to a previous question this week. Make the sheet, show it to your boss and ask if you think this would be useful to share with others in the department.

  53. De Minimis*

    We are at year end and it is driving me crazy….not due to being crazy busy, but we have so many restrictions on spending–things I can normally do with no problem I am not able to do now. That would be okay, but there is no clear guidance on what needs to be done, so I have to find out the hard way and have people from the regional headquarters giving me a hard time about things they have been unclear about.

    I don’t know if this is typical of government, but we have an adversarial relationship with our regional headquarters, I think we view them kind of as hindering our operations and almost wanting us to fail so they can take over. A lot of it is political and involves the historically bad relations between Indian tribes and the government.

  54. the_scientist*

    1) What’s the line on where you give your cell phone number out to colleagues? I don’t have a company cell phone- I’ve used my personal phone (fortunately my plan includes unlimited local calling) to call into teleconferences when working from home, and I’ve given a select group of coworkers and some of our work study students my phone number. Unfortunately, I did end up giving my boss my cell number, although I wasn’t crazy about doing so because she tends to send stream-of-consciousness communications at all hours. So far, she’s been good about (not) texting or calling. But a consultant that works for us on a limited basis keeps asking me for my cell # because “it’s easier to call that number when she needs to be let in to the building”. I’ve persisted in giving out my office number- I’m sitting at my desk, beside my phone! Is it way out of line to say “sorry, I keep work phone calls limited to my work phone and don’t share my personal cell”. I’ve already had to redirect project scientist who send late night and weekend emails to my personal email account. I frankly don’t get paid enough to start blurring the boundaries between business and personal communications.

    2) transition periods. My former manager’s official last day is today, and I’m really sad about it. We’ll stay in touch, and the new manager is great but it will still be a tough transition. What can I do to help be an awesome resource and super helpful employee for the new manager? Former manager has had lots of time to train the new manager but she’ll obviously need to be oriented to some day-to-day things. Further, our boss is experiencing some issues with letting go of former manager…..so I think it will need to be reinforced that new manager is in charge, now, and that former manager in fact doesn’t want to be bothered with stuff. She’s had an 8-week transition, so there’s no reason to contact her.

    1. Colette*

      1) I have in the past given out my cell number to colleagues and regretted it, so I feel your pain. In this case, do you have caller ID on your cell? If so, can you just not answer that phone?

    2. Judy*

      We just got a new IP phone system. Way cool. Mine is set up after two rings to also ring my cell. If I don’t answer, it goes to my work phone voicemail. They never know I picked it up on my cell. It is set up for only certain hours during the work day. I can also be at my desk and press a button and transfer to my cell without anyone know. Once I get set up, I can also make calls through an app on my cell phone, and it looks like I’m calling from my desk.

      I usually only give my personal cell phone number out to someone who might need it, pretty much only manager and co-worker.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Is it way out of line to say “sorry, I keep work phone calls limited to my work phone and don’t share my personal cell”.

      No, it’s not out of line at all. I never gave out my number when I worked at Exjob, except to my backup when I went out of town. He only called me one time, when he borked the FedEx log-in. I have it posted in my cube at this job, however, so people can reach me when I’m telecommuting, but they don’t typically have to even look for it because we use IM so much.

    4. Christine*

      I tend to assume that people have work cell phones. If I ask someone for their cell number, I am completely fine with being told, “Oh, I don’t have a work cell, but you can call my desk number, xxx-xxxx.” I would feel rude pushing for a personal cell number after that, unless I was truly expecting to need it for an emergency.

  55. Beth Anne*

    Do you think it matters when you apply to a job posting? Like last week I saw an ad that said, “job closes 9/26/14.” Would you just apply right away or wait till it was at the end so you were fresh?

    Or am I overthinking and no one cares or it just depends on the hiring manager? I ask because the last time I applied for a job on this particular website (granted this job is at a totally different location) I received an email thanking me for applying but I didn’t get an interview and I was highly qualified so I thought maybe I got stuck on the bottom since I was one of the first to apply :(

    I just hate this whole drama that ends up happening when I am looking for work :(

    1. De Minimis*

      You’re probably overthinking, but I think in general it is better to get the application in there as soon as you can, just in case something changes.

      I know I’ve seen ads sometimes that say they’ll close the listing after the first X amount of applications, although usually that is stated up front.

    2. CoffeeLover*

      Apply asap because companies don’t always wait until the posted deadline to start the hiring process. I also think a lot of hiring managers look over resumes as they come in rather than leaving it til the end.

    3. Sunflower*

      Apply ASAP! I have seen job postings say they are closing on a date and close way before that. DOn’t trust it! If the job seems like a good fit and you want to apply, do it as soon as you can

    4. BRR*

      First rule is don’t wait. I think it mildly matters if you’re using an application system or emailing it to a person. This is my own superstition but if it says email to Jane@chocolateteapot.com I like to email it around 10:30-11:00 am because they’ve already cleared out their morning email, aren’t at lunch yet, and have time to do something with it as opposed to if they’re trying to finish something by close of business and you email them at 4:00. I am fully acknowledging that it probably does not matter though.

    6. Felicia*

      ASAP is better but the specifics of when you apply probably doesnt matter. My current job i applied the first day and didnt hear until the posting closed 1 month later

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Don’t wait. They might yank it before the deadline. You might not have gotten an interview because they got 5000 replies in the first hour and only looked at 10 of them. There’s just no way to tell if you’re number 4999 or number 11.

  56. Bored at Work*

    I’m a young professional and have been at my job for about 6 months. In those 6 months, things have been slow during summer as the summer is the slow season for us. It’s really boring as the workflow is just really slow and there isn’t much to do, and when there is, it doesn’t take a lot of time to do. I have to look around for work and my supervisors have even asked other departments for minor tasks to give me. I’ve been told that the fall and winter are busy seasons, so busy that you have to stay overtime sometimes. Anyway, my manager knows that things are slow and I’m bored and so do my coworkers. My coworker has privately warned me to not talk about it too much or else they may lay us off for not having work to do. I don’t think that will happen as it is supposed to get super busy, but now I’m wondering if my constantly asking for work can be seen as annoying or unproductive (that I’m not doing anything) instead of taking the initiative. I’ve asked for more work and would like more responsibilities, but obviously I’m the new hire and the lowest in the corporate ladder and there just isn’t anything to do.

    1. Joey*

      Ebbs and flows young professional. If you’re not finding stuff to do, ask if you can learn things that don’t take a lot of effort on other people’s part. That might be attending meeting above your head, hanging out with another department you interact with, or researching the current trends in your field. Stay busy!

    2. Kai*

      I would also encourage you not to ask for work very often. Maybe there’s some organizing work you can do, like cleaning up your digital files or documenting the policies and procedures for certain tasks? That would keep you busy and also serve as an indication of your own initiative.

      1. Red*

        I did documentation for myself during slow periods as a temp in what became my permanent role. My manager saw one of the sets of instructions I was working on while I was out doing something else and liked it so well that she asked me to do more of them. She hired me on permanently eventually as well, so I like to think that the time I took to set up those documents helped.

  57. CoffeeLover*

    Not a question, just an update :). I’m graduating soon and doing recruiting now (being recruited that is). I’m having great success with my applications! Better than expected. What this also means is a ton of interviews. It’s exhausting! More so because these aren’t your typical “tell me about a time” interviews and require serious prep beforehand. So now I’m prepping for the interviews, going to interviews, going to networking events (a lot of which are invite only), going to class, doing work for class, starting a new part-time job, and still applying to jobs. It’s. Exhausting. At least I can see a light at the end of the tunnel though because as soon as I get an offer I’m freeeeeeee :D.

  58. Simone*

    I graduated in May with my undergrad degree and began to look for jobs in February. It’s one thing to hear about the dismal job market and another to actually personally start trying to find a job in it. I discovered AAM during this job search and absolutely love it- I revised my resume and the way I penned cover letters because of the plethora of information this site has to offer on the topic. In mid July I came across a front desk receptionist position making $10.00 hourly. I previously served as a receptionist for about three years before entering college in the hopes that I would have more opportunities once I completed my degree. I quickly realized during my job search that my degree would not necessarily give me an edge over anyone else so I decided to take the receptionist position in the hopes that I could eventually move up or at least work this job until perhaps something better came along. The minimum duties assigned to me upon hire were answering phones, running errands, calling for hotel receipts, etc- nothing too hard. Things have now changed and I have been given the responsibility of taking on a whole new position- one where I book travel daily and car rentals for about 100 technicians across the U.S. In addition, I will also be taking on a account payables position in the near future. To sum it up- I was hired as a receptionist but will now perform two completely different positions while still maintaining some of the receptionist responsibilities. I want to stress that I don’t mind taking on more responsibility and am actually happy to do so. However, it’s important that my pay matches these new responsibilities. I just wanted to see what you guys thought about how I should approach the pay negotiation whenever it happens and perhaps how much I should aim for. Thanks.

    1. fposte*

      How much is hugely dependent on your area and how various jobs are individually interpreted. I would say that booking travel doesn’t seem out of place in a receptionist to me, but I think you can ask whether additional duties will mean a change in pay. It sounds like you’re only a couple of months there and you don’t have much idea of the market, so I don’t think you have much leverage; I therefore wouldn’t push hard on this unless I were prepared to leave the job over it.

      1. Simone*

        Thanks for your reply. To add a bit more context- booking travel was a separate position that someone else fulfilled on a salaried basis. This person left last month and the job came to me on a temporary basis at first and as of this week I found out that it’s now my job completely as well as an accounts payable position. The office manager also told me that we would discuss my duties. I am also due for a pay review next month so all of this makes me believe that I will indeed be paid more. Exactly how much I should negotiate for is the true question.

        1. fposte*

          That makes sense; I negotiated a better start rate at a temp-to-perm job years ago in similar situations.

          So now you need to research. What’s particularly good is if you know what the travel person was getting paid and what percentage of their duties this was, and how much the accounts payable folks are getting paid. But you can certainly look around at other jobs like that in your area (making sure that you’re not comparing apples and oranges when it comes to location, commute, etc.). Do the math on percentages of your time and make a proposal from that.

          (Are you going to be a regular accounts payable person who also books travel *and* handles the front desk? Is that going to work?)

          1. Simone*

            Once again, thanks for your reply. I’ve done a bit of initial research for my area and both jobs start out at a minimum of about $15.00 hourly. I don’t know how to find out the exact figure that these positions pay at my company, but I have talked with a coworker that has standing here and she said that she wouldn’t take less than$15 at a minimum. As for your second question- I’m just as curious about that as you. I’m not sure how easy it would be to handle all of these roles but I will try my best. It’s also worth mentioning that my phone answering duties will be outsourced to a different office location within the next few months, however, I will still be expected to stay at the front desk and continue on doing things like getting the mail and running errands. I don’t particularly like this aspect of the change, but don’t really have a say in the matter right now. Perhaps, they will eventually hire someone else for the front desk and I will finally get my own space and office. In all, I guess I will juggle being a quasi receptionist/accounts payable/ travel coordinator to the best of my abilities. The only thing I’m certain of is that I will not do all of this for $10 an hour :)

  59. K.Pages*

    My company is going through a restructure, and while my job is safe for now, I’m starting the hunt for a new position. I’d like to use this opportunity to explore a new industry; I’d love to work at a non-profit (or even a for-profit whose mission really is to help people) but I have no idea where to start looking for roles outside my current industry – film & television production.
    Can anyone suggest job boards or networking sites that might lead me to opportunities at a non-profit in NYC? I’m currently an HR Director so I just joined HRNY (the local SHRM Chapter) but I’d like to cover all bases.

    Thank you so much for your help!

    2. HR Anonymous*

      Also try asaecenter.org (American Society of Association Executives – not all postings are for executives, and since you’re a director now, this might have some postings you’re interested in)

  60. Bend & Snap*

    Has anyone had issues with a coworker taking credit for ideas?

    I have a coworker who has taken 3 of my ideas in the past couple of weeks. One I presented in a team meeting and she acted on it before I could, one I came up with in a client meeting and coworker is now taking credit for the whole idea with our boss, and one is something I’m currently running with that she’s trying to hijack.

    My problem is she’s socializing these things far and wide and getting recognized for them–but they’re not her ideas! I don’t feel like there’s anything I can do without looking petty. Is that right?

    1. Joey*

      That’s a misstep on your part. When you share ideas you have to make it known that you’re taking the lead on them. Ideally your boss would be in the meeting, you’d volunteer to take the lead on your idea and your boss would have your back.

      If you’re sharing ideas and there’s no next steps outlined it always turns into a free for all.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        Really? Nobody else in my organization does this. It’s understood that the one to come up with the idea owns it unless otherwise specified, and I’ve been the one to outline and verbally take on next steps.

        In each case she’s set it up so that I can’t take credit or execute my own ideas. She doesn’t seem to have any of her own.

    2. EG*

      Time to take the matter to your manager. Explain that you want to take lead with your ideas. Don’t sound petty, just a simple explanation that you came up with the idea and want to be the one who takes control of the next steps, perhaps so you have more experience in these areas.

      1. Pontoon Pirate*

        Also, if you can manage a very even and friendly tone, the next time your manager or someone else enthuses about one of your stolen ideas, you can say, “Actually, that’s the idea I proposed in the May teapot analytics meeting,” and just leave it there. You don’t want to sound petty, but, y’know, there’s nothing wrong with being objectively honest about who generated the great idea.

        1. Bend & Snap*

          I like this. It sounds calm and reasonable.

          We have a new boss and I think she’s bending over backwards to impress him. We all are. So this allows me to tread lightly but still give him a heads up. Thank you.

    3. MisterPickle*

      On one hand – your co-worker is a jerk. I personally can’t stand people who steal credit.

      On the other hand – I have to be blunt: good ideas are a dime a dozen. If you have a good idea, you need to somehow either execute on it, begin execution upon it, or otherwise somehow ensure that you are in the driver’s seat – as Joey commented, you need to “take the lead” – on the execution of that idea.

      I don’t know the details of your business organization or the circumstances about which you are writing, but in my experience, if Bob says “I think we should put all of the client info in a database” and then Jim builds a database that contains all of the client info, Jim will probably get all the credit.

      If your co-worker is swooping in and doing work that your boss has assigned to you – that’s a different problem.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        The ideas aren’t as vague as “let’s build a database,” they’re “we should look at this, consider x, y and z in the planning and align with this other thing before going out over these channels. I’ll do some research and circulate a plan for input.” For the one she started executing before I could, this was pretty much the verbatim conversation, and she had done the research and taken the credit before I was out of my series of meetings that afternoon.

        That’s stealing, not a failure to outline next steps or execute. That’s why I’m frustrated.

    4. Mephyle*

      She may not be as innovative as you, but she has superior skills in terms of taking ideas and running with them, and socializing them. Watch how she does it. Learn from her. Next time, you will be better able to do it yourself.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        No, actually, she’s not better at execution in any way. She’s just sneakier and not a team player. I regularly win awards and just got promoted due to my ability to generate and execute ideas that benefit the business, including the single most disruptive change to our marketing organization in the company’s 40-year history. I have a solid reputation for a good reason.

        The issue isn’t that she’s better at her job than I am. It’s that she’s a thief.

        1. Bend & Snap*

          This probably sounded snotty, but really, don’t go around inventing stuff like this based on one post. Thanks.

        2. Mephyle*

          Or that you’re discounting social skills as ‘not as important’ as idea skills. A natural thing to think, especially if you’re the idea generator.

          But if the person who’s able to promote ideas and get credit for them pulls ahead of the person who generates them, it’s a sign of what the business values and rewards.

          1. Bend & Snap*

            Again–promoting and getting credit for ideas is something I do regularly. And I don’t resort to taking them from other people.

            I realize I come across as pretty dry here, but my social skills are fine. I know what it takes to get an idea from spark to fruition, and I do it successfully on a regular basis. Somebody swiping something out from under me doesn’t mean I don’t know how to do what she’s doing.

            1. Anonymoo*

              You do not come across as “dry”. You come across as someone who can’t handle criticism.

              Good luck talking to the boss. You’re going to need it.

    5. CoffeeLover*

      When you come up with an idea, why not ask if anyone would like to be involved in it or a specific part of it. That way she can either volunteer (and you’re still the head of the idea train) or if she doesn’t volunteer and still goes ahead and does it all, you have a way to approach her. You can say, “Jane, when I asked in the meeting if anyone would like to be involved you didn’t volunteer, can you shed some light on why you went ahead with it without talking to me first?”

  61. MaryMary*

    On Monday, my coworkers and I discovered a security camera had been installed in our breakroom/kitchen. Like everyone else, we have a few issues with people eating food and beverages that do not belong to them, but I don’t feel like we have more problems than the average office. It’s so weird! No one knows if the camera is being continuously monitored (any by whom), or if it will only be reviewed if someone has a complaint. It’s a little creepy, no one is thrilled at being monitored. We’ve taken to waving at the camera when we walk in the room.

    1. Jamie*

      I wave at the cameras when I’m alone in the office. And can I just tell people who check the cameras from home on your iPads and wait until I got out of the ladies room to call me so not freaking tell me that because it’s so creepy that you’re thousands of miles away and just saw me walk out of the ladies room?!

      It wasn’t creepy – they turned on the app to see if my car was there and happened to pop on the front office screen but still – whenever I’m alone I smile and wave at the cameras. And if I’m stealing a Kit Kat from the candy drawer I hold it up to the camera taunting them with deliciousness. But I’m a dork.

      In open areas I don’t think cameras are intrusive – I just assume they are everywhere, but I do think audio is intrusive if people don’t know about it. And I bet this cuts down on the lunch theft.

    3. MisterPickle*

      Can you simply ask your management “hey, what’s up with the camera?” I’d assume they would have an answer. And, in fact, if they *don’t* have an answer, they might be interested in knowing that there’s a camera there.

      1. Gene*

        Previous office kitty that went home with a coworker got named Mr Pickle by his daughters.

        If they don’t have a good answer, be in there with a lot of people, get out of the camera’s field of view, and smear something on the lens/lay a piece of plastic wrap over it, then watch to see who comes to clean it. That will give you information on who is monitoring it.

        I always wave at our cameras, but I know who is watching them.

  62. Kali*

    Anyone else in a results-only work environment? I started a new job almost six months ago and I love it, but I can’t shake the guilt of not being in the office 40+ hours a week. Crazy, I know. I get great feedback and I’m getting all my work done, plus, I feel like a real person again, getting more sleep, being able to cook dinner, exercise, etc. But I still stress out if I’m “late” in the morning or have to leave “early” for an appointment or, or, or…. Anyone have suggestions to get over this or does it just get easier with time?

    1. Bend & Snap*

      I think it gets easier. I have way more flexibility in this job than my last one and the “guilt” hasn’t left yet, but it’s a lot better.

      Also, I’m jealous! That sounds amazing.

  63. Christy*

    Poll: Should Eagle Scout be listed under Honors/Awards on a resume? What about for a young man at the age of 25 who is not presently involved with Scouting? When does it come off the resume?

    (I’m helping a friend with his and he insists that it’s helpful. I’m not sure the homophobic implications of Boy Scouts are always helpful.)

      1. De Minimis*

        I disagree a bit, I think it should stay on until you either start to have a good track record or until it starts being too far in the past [and he continues to not have any involvement with Scouting—if he started being involved with Scouting as an adult I’d leave it on as long as he continued.]

        If a person is still very early in their career I would leave it on assuming it is still in the fairly recent past, like less than a decade old. It’s a major achievement that few manage to do, and requires a lot of community involvement and also management and organizational skills [I believe one of the requirements is organizing a major service project on your own.]

        Once he starts building a work record though, it should probably come off if he’s no longer doing anything in Scouting.

    3. MaryMary*

      To me, it’s similar to listing membership in a college fraternity or sorority. Some people have a negative perception of frat bros and sorority girls, but it can also be an invaluable networking opportunity and some people will go out of their way to promote a “sister” or “brother” even if the person is a total stranger. A lot of people still think very highly of Scouting, and being a Eagle Scout is an impressive achievement. To your point, other people may have a negative reaction. I think this is a place to tailor the resume. If applying to a more traditional company, or somewhere where you know there’s a Scouting connection, include it.

    4. Christy*

      To be clear, he’s been working in either of his two fields (computers and theatre) since graduating with his masters in 2011, so it’s not like he lacks job experience.

      1. De Minimis*

        At that point I might consider leaving it off—though I agree with MaryMary if you think a company might look favorably on it I’d put it on there.

      2. Felicia*

        Then he should for sure take it off. It’s only helpful when it’s either current or you don’t have a track record.

    5. Tinker*

      Not sure about the usefulness of it — I get the impression it can be some sort of bonding / identity thing to certain sorts of people or in certain industries, but not sure who or where.

      I’d be kind of surprised, though, if someone considered the homophobic policies of the organization to reflect on an individual youth member or even an adult leader, unless they worked at a really high level or something. Personally, I tend to see the grassroots participants as being folks who are sadly saddled with a crappy organization, rather than direct supporters of all that junk.

      1. Judy*

        I wrote out a long reply about the drama our pack faced, but yes, there are things that come from national and council that only cause drama where there was none before.

    6. Nancypie*

      I am (audiobook) reading Lean In right now, and at the end of Chapter 2, she talks about confidence and how women take credit/blame for things. Lower confidence in general…and when given a compliment, say things like “I got lucky” etc.

      Meanwhile, I’ve known several people in my career who are borderline delusional about how good of a job they think they are. There must be a balance somewhere.

    7. Elkay*

      I’d say only if you’re still volunteering.

      I’m constantly told Girl Scouts is useful (I’m involved but don’t buy into a lot of their PR), I’m not convinced it is however I think if you’re still actively involved it won’t do you any harm to have it on there. My volunteering has on occasion opened up avenues of conversation with interviewers but only at the end of the interview when the “formal” part is over.

      The issue with things like Eagle Scout (I’m not in the US but I assume it’s similar to our Baden Powell award or Queen’s Guide) is that you only know how much work is involved if you/someone you know has done it. If you’re not continuing the association with the organisation it can come across a bit as “so what?”

      1. Elizabeth West*

        The only thing I remember from Girl Scouts that would be useful to me at work is how to build a campfire. You know, in the event of a zombie apocalypse where we would have to fend for ourselves.

    8. Nancypie*

      I think it’s great until someone is late 20s, unless the job is for
      Park ranger or something.

      Being a volunteer Boy or Girl Scout leader is a great thing to see in a resume, though, in my opinion.

    9. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      First of all, I don’t know what you mean by “homophobic implications”. Most in the Boy Scouts don’t carry that stigma. Being in the Boy Scouts doesn’t mean you’re homophobic.

      Being an Eagle Scout is a high honor that was EARNED. There is nothing to be ashamed of earning that honor. And you never know if the manager reviewing that resume was in Scouting him/herself. Who WILL know that it is a major life achievement.

      I’d list it, if I had had the good fortune to earn it. It’s a positive reflection on your character – your self-discipline at an early age.

      1. Judy*

        I believe the “homophobic implications” has to do with the last few years and the policies pushed down from the national organization through the local councils to the troops and packs.

        It certainly caused drama within our pack where there wasn’t before when council decided one of our leaders couldn’t be a leader for her son’s den.

      2. Anon1234*

        Yes, it is an honor that was earned. From an institution that promotes bigotry against atheists and homosexuals. Adults bear the consequences of their actions, and if an adult wishes to promote his or her membership in such an organization, he or she should not be surprised at the consequences.

    10. Student*

      If you aren’t actively involved in scouting and you have at least 1 significant job in your career field, I’d suggest leaving it off.

      I’m biased – I have a very strong negative reaction to boy scouts. In addition to the homophobic implications, there’s also the Atheist discrimination (which might matter in highly technical fields, but likely won’t matter elsewhere… yet) and the discrimination against women.

      I dearly wanted to do the things the boy scouts were doing when I was a little girl in grade school. Instead I got stuck in girl scouts, making little fish out of fruit and sewing angel dolls. I was hurt and angry that I couldn’t join them just because of my gender. Then I found out what they think of Atheists, and I got bitter – they think we’re inherently immoral and not worthy of associating with. Then I found out about the homophobia, and heard the stories about long-time scouts being ejected for daring to love another man, and that really cemented it as an organization that I will never be willing to support, no matter how they change in the future.

      I try really hard not to hold that against individual scouts – I know many of them are ignorant of the whole organization’s practices, or don’t see their impact on real people, or didn’t have much personal choice about joining. But I’m a human – a flawed woman atheist with some gay friends – so it takes me more effort than I’d like to admit to not hold it as a mark against someone’s character.

      1. Judy*

        I can certainly say that some of us feel that (1) the character development for our boys is worth some distaste of the national organization’s policies and (2) the best way to change it is from within.

        I’d also say that my daughter wanted an experience like her brother was getting in cub scouts, and our troop is camping more than the boys by 3rd grade. Cub scouts are only allowed to family camp, they can’t go with just leaders until they are boy scouts (6th grade). Locally, our boys don’t have resident camp available either.

        1. Student*

          I think there are more alternatives to the boy scouts available now than when I was growing up. If I had children of my own, I’d look toward one of those alternatives that was inclusive, even if it meant founding my own chapter. I can respect that you see enough good in the organization to want to stay involved despite the bad, though, and I’m sure your boys will turn out just fine.

          Mainly though, I wanted to let the person who asked the original question know that there are people like me out there, that we are reviewing resumes and making hiring decisions, and we will react poorly to seeing “boy scout” on the resume of anyone other than an active volunteer or someone straight out of school.

      2. Christy*

        Right–I’m gay, and I’m biased. But I wouldn’t exactly brag about my association with BSA if I were him. Like “ooh, I was a good Christian straight boy growing up.” Congratu-freaking-lations. But then, being a good Christian straight boy has never really hurt anyone in the US, ever.

        /rant.

        1. De Minimis*

          To be fair, the Scouts have always been open to all religious faiths, not just Christian. I think the sticking point is you can’t be an avowed atheist, I believe it’s okay if someone is just apathetic toward religion.

          I’m glad they’ve at least opened the door to gay Scouts. I don’t know if they will ever budge on atheism, which is odd because I’d think that would be a lot easier to deal with, but I guess not.

    11. AnonAsAlways*

      Wow. Just wow. I cannot believe the connotations everyone seems to have placed at the feet of the young men for what they think this group stands for. The boys who work for years to attain Eagle Scout rank have learned survival skills, helping community, and yes, are faith-based. (Note: what we are talking about here is nothing like spending a couple of years a s Girl Scout or Cub Scout.) I’m in awe of every. single. one. who I’ve met. Have any of you making these comments ever met an Eagle Scout? Attended a scout meeting? Picked up a Scouting book to read what is being taught? Don’t confuse high-level policy you may personally disagree with, with the good work being done with these kids at a volunteer, community level.
      Having said that, before I had a child in scouts, I too, was ignorant of what an Eagle Scout rank meant, and probably would have scoffed seeing it on a resume. Now that I understand the hard work, integrity, and leadership necessary to get there, I’d encourage every Eagle Scout to put it on his resume forever. I’m pretty sure if someone were to discriminate against him for it, it wouldn’t be a person he’d want to work for anyway.

      1. C Average*

        I actually agree with a lot of what you’ve said about the merits of scouting and the dedication it takes to reach the Eagle Scout rank. I grew up in a small town where scouting was an absolute godsend to many of our local boys, I worked at a Boy Scout camp during my summers in college (and loved every minute of it), I’ve attended quite a few Eagle ceremonies, and I personally would draw favorable conclusions if I saw “Eagle Scout” on a resume.

        But there’s the rub. The question wasn’t “Is BSA an organization that does good work, and is attaining the Eagle Scout rank admirable?” It was “Should an Eagle Scout ranking be listed on a resume?” And each person viewing that resume is going to bring his or her own biases and assumptions and experiences involving scouting, meaning that including that information could work strongly for or strongly against the candidate.

        If I were the candidate, that would be a tough call. There’s the chance one of your interviewers is an Eagle Scout himself, in which case he has an understanding of what that achievement entails and can weight it accordingly. There’s also the chance that one of your interviewers has no personal association with scouting and has read a lot of negative things in the press (some of them true) and drawn conclusions accordingly. There’s even the possibility that the interviewer has been excluded from scouting due to gender, sexual orientation, or religious affiliation and has negative associations with the organization as a result.

        If you’re an Eagle Scout, you worked hard to get that and you absolutely should be proud. But you should also be aware that listing it on a resume has the potential to work against you.

  64. AJay*

    When do you know that it is time to move on from a position, despite everything about it seeming great on paper? I’ve read previous posts detailing when you know you are in an abusive work environment, and I am fairly confident that isn’t my situation. I like almost all of my coworkers, my boss is great, my hours our great, I get nice benefits, and my work is appreciated. Unfortunately, I have become so overwhelmed and stressed out that it is beginning to affect my health and I sometimes go home crying.

    To give some background information, I’ve been working in a small university department for just under two years, and this is my first full time job so I am having trouble figuring out if my responsibilities are unreasonable or if I am just not suited for the job. To give a little bit of back story, my role has changed a lot since I started. When I was initially hired, I was responsible for providing an essential function for one department. The number of duties I’m responsible for has grown, as well as the number of departments I support (four) due to reorganization. From what I’ve heard, the person who held my position before me was a terrible fit, did a fraction of the work I am doing now and was in the position for years. I can tell that my work is appreciated, and I’ve received three (small) raises since I’ve started, which is significant considering my university’s current salary “freeze”. After petitioning for it, I’ve also been given a small team of student workers that I can delegate tasks to.

    My workload seems to be steadily increasing, and I am not only afraid that I won’t be able to keep up but that it’s beginning to affect my confidence in my abilities. I am pretty ambitious, but now feel like if I can’t handle this seemingly entry level position, I won’t be able to handle anything else in the future. My coworkers assure me that they are all feeling the strain of this recent reorganization and many of them have quit, but I am still finding it hard to keep things in perspective because I have no other professional work experience to compare it to. Right now I am staying because I would like to have a solid two years of work experience, and because I am pursuing my Master’s degree from the university I work at.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you ask your good boss to un-bury you from the mountain of work? This might mean hiring someone or delegating work to other departments.

      I would mention something to the effect of being stressed because of the ever increasing amount of work. See what he says. It could be that you do not need to be doing some of the work you are doing.

      It sounds like you are pretty close to your completing your goals? It might be worth it to have that discussion with your boss so that you get your two years and get your Master’s.

  65. cd*

    What’s the proper way to ask your boss to let you leave early once a week? Can I get away with a non-explanation like “personal reasons”? Should I make up a lie? (An exercise group? Walking a friend’s dog? Pretty sure lying is a bad idea but I don’t know what to do.) I don’t want my boss or coworkers to know it’s because I’ve decided I’m fucked enough to need therapy. We don’t have a real HR department/employee assistance/anything else because we’re a startup and it’s all in the cloud, so there’s no standard process and nobody at the company I can ask for advice. The good news: our company does let you make up missed hours by working more another day of the same week, so I probably won’t have to use PTO.

    1. fposte*

      I’d be pretty taken aback if an employee asked for time off from work to walk a friend’s dog, but things may be different at a startup. Can’t you just say “an appointment”?

      P.S. We’re all fucked enough to need therapy. It’s the human condition.

      1. Jamie*

        P.S. We’re all fucked enough to need therapy. It’s the human condition.

        ITA. And if as a society we can get over the stigma of therapists that would be great.

        And as opposed I am to lying in most cases, I’m more opposed to having to disclose private information if you don’t want to. In a place where people have fairly tight relationships if I just said appointment without details they would get super worried something was seriously wrong. I shouldn’t have to disclose, but it would socially and politically awkward if I didn’t give them something palatable. Just like when I was going to the gyn a lot I had zero trouble looking people dead in the eye and saying “dentist.” I was doing it for them as well as me – they didn’t want to think about my uterus than I wanted them to.

    2. Christy*

      Recurring doctor’s appointment. That’s how I get away with going to therapy.

      Actually, my boss doesn’t ask. I just put in for sick leave every couple of weeks and he approves it.

      And going to therapy doesn’t mean you’re fucked up. It just means you want help dealing with your shit. No harm in that.

      1. Elysian*

        Yup. Recurring medical appointment.

        “It just means you want help dealing with your shit.” – Truth. Be your best self, without shame. If therapy helps you be your best self, be glad you found it. It’s like taking a vitamin or making sure you get in time at the gym or going to bed at a reasonable hour or all the other things we do to keep ourselves healthy and functioning.

        1. cd*

          I haven’t been at the company anywhere long enough for it to apply. I’ve been a “contractor” for a while (the kind of arrangement that’s just a way for them to avoid paying their share of payroll taxes), but was only made a technical employee this month.

    3. Nanc*

      Can you just tell your manager you have a health issue that requires an ongoing weekly Dr. appointment? Maybe say for the next 3 months? By that time your therapist may have openings at a more convenient time or you may have a better handle on your issues. Either way–good luck.

      1. cd*

        OK, sounds like an unspecified “health issue” is the way to go, and then if there are any more questions just repeat that. Hopefully my boss isn’t too nosy. Eeeeeek I’m scared though. (Haven’t yet done any of the steps towards finding a therapist, but I assume that they want to work normal daytime hours like everyone else, and I’m certainly not willing to give up the ability to make weekend plans for the foreseeable future.)

        1. Elle D*

          I just commented below, but some do work non-traditional hours! I see mine on Saturdays at 9am, and I met with my last therapist at 7pm on a weeknight. Not all therapists do this, but you may be able to find one!

        2. Jamie*

          If I had to lie – and my comment in moderation above explains why this is one of the rare times I approve of lying if a generic “appointment” will cause issues, is I’d say physical therapy.

          Not just because it’s not technically a lie because your mind and brain are housed in your physical body and being happier mentally can improve how you feel physically (and yes I am a rationalizer and a very difficult child because of my love of loop holes) but also because it’s common to have to go at the same time every week for indefinite periods of time for issues which may not be apparent at work or serious enough for people to worry about.

          If asked just mention your back or knee acts up sometimes, no big deal. Whose doesn’t? Just because that’s not the reason you’re going to therapy is no reason for you to feel bad they drew a correlation where none existed.

          Seriously – physical therapy is the way to lie if needed on this – no definite end time and no major issues needed.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          “It’s a personal matter and I’d rather not discuss it.”
          That statement is your best friend.

          Keep in mind that some people genuinely care. So you may want to back this up with, “I am working at things and this is fixable.” Or something similar that indicates you will not keel over and die tomorrow.

          I am saying this because I got involved in another type of situation, same result that I needed to leave early. I would not disclose what was going on. My boss finally blurted out “Are you going to die?” I assured her I would live through every agonizing moment. Once I answered that question, there were no more questions.

        4. Tris Prior*

          My therapy appointments are at 8 p.m. on a weeknight. It can be done! (and, good for you for deciding to seek help.)

    5. Elle D*

      Good luck. I have a friend who arrives late one day a week for her appointment. She has a great relationship with her immediate supervisor so she was just honest, but she told her overall boss she had a medical appointment once a week. Also, something worth exploring – some therapists do keep hours in evenings or on Saturdays. I see mine on Saturday mornings, and I saw my last therapist at 7PM on a weeknight. That may not be an option for you, but if it is that would prevent you from having to say anything to your boss at all.

    6. MisterPickle*

      “Recurring medical appointment”. I know you don’t want to lie, but if they get nosy, saying something like “gastrointestinal issue ” or “gynecological issue” should stifle further conversation. If they *still* press, try “look – it’s nothing that’s going to adversely affect my work, but it’s personal and I’d rather not talk about it, okay?” If they *still* want to know more – it might be time to look for another job.

      A lot of people have weighed in with good suggestions, I’m not adding a lot except that I too want to congratulate you on seeking therapy. Many years ago I did the same and put some time and money and effort into a year of “self-improvement work” and I’ve never regretted it. So – good on ya!

    7. EG*

      No need to lie, just say recurring medical appointment. Your company already has a policy to allow for missed hours to be made up on another day, so this should be an easy accommodation.

    8. A Non*

      I tell people “I have a standing appointment on ___ afternoons.” Never got pushed for more explanation than that – it could have been a spa appointment for all they knew, but they probably assumed it was medical. It helps now that I have a Really Cool Hobby that involves multiple weekly lessons – if I say I have to leave promptly today, everyone assumes it’s for that.

    9. Red*

      I do physical therapy twice a week and need to leave a little early two non-consecutive days each workweek to do so. Just tell your manager (this is what I did!) that you are going to have an ongoing medical appointment on x day for the foreseeable future and need y time off on those days. Your boss shouldn’t be very nosy about it. Depending on your employer’s policies, you might need to provide a doctor’s note at some point, but whomever you hand that off to should keep the information confidential.

      1. cd*

        We’re a startup and I’m pretty sure we don’t have anyone I could tell anything in confidence. Our HR is “in the cloud,” which means there’s an online form where you can request actual time off that comes out of your accumulated PTO, and as far as I can tell nothing else.

        1. cd*

          If I used PTO for this, it would get used as fast as it accumulated and I would literally have zero vacation days all year.

    10. Natalie*

      Folks have already covered the best way to inform them about the appointment, so this is a fistbump for therapy.

      It took me too many years to get into counseling, years I wasted because I was fucking afraid. Afraid of therapists, afraid of what people would think, afraid of the shit I needed to deal with, and most of all… honestly, legitimately afraid that things could be better and I would have no damn clue what to do with that. What to do with “better”.

      Therapy changed and continues to change my life, in a good way. My best wishes for you to have a similar experience.

  66. The Crusher*

    What do you do when your company just isn’t that into you?

    I’m in a specialized field, so my skills aren’t directly transferable and due to the way our metrics are calculated it’s difficult to discuss concrete results – I help train people to design teapots, but my company doesn’t actually design teapots. My customers rate me on how satisfied they are with practice teapots they design. Although I have the skills necessary to design teapots, those skills aren’t in demand unless you plan to undertake a long formal apprenticeship program and I don’t really dig teapot design anyway. It’s kind of a niche I got into a few years ago trying to make some beer money and I got stuck where I am.

    I’ve been with this company for five years, two as a full-timer, with gradually increasing responsibility. When I came on as a full-timer, it involved a move from teaching kettle design, which I love, to teapot design, which has bigger numbers but which I don’t like (and teapot design trainees are miserable). I’ve tried a couple of paths – I want to train other trainers, but that role was greatly reduced a few years ago and now instead of a trainer-trainer in every office there’s one for the entire company. I’ve gotten involved on the hiring end, but we do a skills interview so even that isn’t very transferable.

    I’ve applied for multiple management steps up and requested a move back to kettle design, but none of that is happening. Interview feedback is typically good. People claim to hear good things about me, but there’s always someone more qualified. Consider that teapot design trainees are a harsh market and I’m not a teapot designer, and my metrics aren’t great, so I lose consideration because I’m playing out of position trying to help the company.

    I’m at a loss for what to do. Am I just stuck leaving and starting over in a brand new field?

    1. fposte*

      Ah, it’s tough when you feel like your company values you most for what you really don’t want to do any more. Sorry about that. I’m not clear on what you mean in the last question, though–if you’re looking for kettle design education, that’s not a brand new field to you, is it? It’s just something that you’ve gotten away from for a little and would like to get back to. So if you haven’t, why not check out the field to see what hiring looks like it in now, so you’re considering a concrete change rather than an abstract one?

  67. Impatient*

    Hi,

    I applied for a job and was contacted Wednesday for a time to have a 30 minute phone screen for this week or next, I replied back same day,thanked her for getting in touch with me and said Friday (today) was the best day to get in touch with me and gave times I had meetings/couldn’t chat. I haven’t heard anything back yet. I am concerned because the recruiter started out saying she had entered in the wrong info in my application status which is “not being considered at this time” and to disregard it if I get an automated message. Should I contact her? and reiterate my interest and ask if I should expect a call or just hang tight? I was also wondering if she still has access to my resume/materials I submitted in the online career portal. I am an impatient person but surprised she didn’t follow up to schedule something and it has been two days.

  69. Cath in Canada*

    I finally embraced the inevitable and signed up for a one week PMP exam prep course. Everyone I know who’s taken it so far says that it’s really intense, very dry, and only partially applicable to the kind of project management I do (research projects are weird), but that you can apply some of the concepts. It’ll also be really useful to have on my CV when we include PM salary in a grant application budget request. However, as much as I usually love taking courses, I’m having a really hard time summoning up much enthusiasm for this one. At least a) I’m not paying for it, and b) two other members of my team are doing the same course.

    Any PMPs out there who can convince me that this’ll be fun?

    1. Witty Nickname*

      I did a one week prep course that was really fantastic. Honestly, I think the company you take it through will have a lot to do with whether or not you get anything out of it (the company I went through had a curriculum that was really helpful, with several handouts/job aids that I still have hanging up on my bulletin board in my cubicle). The instructor is also key – the instructor I had knew how to break down the info in a way that let us get through all of it (it was an intense course – 4 days of instruction and then a practice exam and review on the last day). He also knew how to engage us with the material.

      A lot of the PMP exam (if you are doing the one through PMI) is focused on project management in a manufacturing/construction environment, so a lot of the prep courses focus more on that. The majority of people in my class were in an IT environment, but they all seemed to get a lot out of it. I’m in marketing, and I was able to get a lot out of it. Honestly, my project management skills have gotten so much better because I got some really helpful tools and info from the course. Even if you aren’t going to take the exam, I think you can get a lot out of it.

      One thing I told my boss and coworker (who took the course after I did) is don’t plan on trying to get a lot of work done in the evenings. There is a LOT of info to absorb in 4 or 5 days (depending on how your course is structured), and your brain will need the break in the evenings.

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Thanks for your reply!

        It’s through a community college. My department has been sending people to the same course for a few years, and everyone’s passed so far, so I’m assuming it’s pretty good!

        Yes, it’s the PMI one, and I’ve heard the same thing about the construction/manufacturing focus from multiple people. I’ve watched various video podcasts about project management and most of them are geared to that sector, too, so I’m somewhat familiar with what we’re likely to be learning and how applicable it is (or isn’t) to our sector.

        The course used to be run at the college’s secondary campus, literally a block from our office, so in the past people have come in during the course’s lunch break to try to catch up with work. However, they’ve just switched it to the main campus (which is closer to my house, but further away for my two colleagues), so that won’t be possible for us. What a shame, eh?!

  70. Shell*

    So between a breakup of a long-term relationship last week (very amiable parting, but still) and parents being less than helpful/supportive, to say the least (I live at home, and my mother picked a fight with me about HOUSEKEEPING of all times to do so), I am…less than emotionally stable at the moment right now. I’m grieving the loss of the relationship and furious at my mother.

    AAMers, how do I keep it together at work? My inclination is to hermit at home but home is, as noted above, not really an emotionally safe place, so I might as well go to work and make some money rather than take time off. I tried the “ranting in notepad” trick but a coworker noticed the massive rant (about my mother, incidentally…I have nothing but good things to say about my ex) and asked me what it was. She backed off when I said it was a personal rant, but I probably didn’t win myself any professionalism points with that answer (I had no idea what else to say, because anything that pretended to be actual work would probably prompt her to come even closer to my computer to take a look).

    Tips to keep myself from bawling at work or flipping my (very heavy) desk would be appreciated. Thanks.

    1. Bookworm*

      Sorry to hear about your break up, are you more upset with your mother or over the breakup? Could you try talking to your mom and ask her to back off for a bit while you process. I don’t know what kind of role you are in but I am in a visible role at work and if I am having a bad day or just in a sour mood, I put in my earbuds and just focus on work and keep my socializing to a minimum this usually lasts a day though. Or you could just take your mind off things and grab lunch with a coworker which I have done as well it helps to get out of the office and focus on something else. I have done both and are both conflicting pieces of advice, just depends on the problem and how you are feeling and how you cope :) Hope this helps

    2. De Minimis*

      There was a piece on Captain Awkward about keeping it together at work when you had depression or other personal issues. That site is blocked for me at work, but you might try a google search,

    3. Elle D*

      I recently went through a similar situation, and it’s hard. There is no easy way to make the pain or frustration go away. My best advice is to try and focus on work as much as possible while you’re there. Listen to yourself – some days it may be helpful to throw yourself into more challenging projects, other days you may want to distract yourself by doing a mindless task. Don’t beat yourself up for having a bad day. If you feel like you’re going to cry, excuse yourself to the restroom, let it out (as quietly as possible), compose yourself and get refocused. If you decide to continue journaling/ranting at the workplace, I highly recommend bringing an actual notepad and writing by hand. This way, you have the opportunity to simply close the notebook up if a co-worker approaches you. And while I do not recommend taking days off to sit at home and mope, maybe requesting a Friday or Monday off and enjoying a long weekend spending time with friends or enjoying an activity that will make you happy would allow you to recharge.

      Also, are you allowed to use headphones at your job? If I’m having a bad day and I’m not doing a task that requires a ton of brain power, I like to listen to Podcasts about topics that interest me. It makes the day go by faster and it keeps your mind from wandering into angry territory. I prefer podcasts to music when I’m sad, because sometimes songs remind me of specific memories (with an ex, family, whatever) and it makes it worse.

      Finally, if seeing a therapist is an option, I recommend it. Many keep hours in evenings or on weekends so it won’t interfere with work, and it will allow you to discuss your frustrations and grieve the end of your relationship in a supportive environment.

    4. Dasha*

      Take breaks if you can, somewhere private. Do you have a supportive friend you could call before work, during lunch, after work? Best of luck to you :)

    5. BRR*

      Could you possibly go to hotel for a weekend or something? It sounds like some alone time might just help you decompress.

    7. Shell*

      Thanks everybody. To address everyone at once in no particular order:

      -Sadly, I’m front desk, so earbuds are out and I still need to keep up a modicum of professional behaviour. I am proud to say that I at least got the reasonably well-dressed part down and my productivity hasn’t suffered…much. I face the wall/door, so I can’t tell when coworkers are sneaking up on me from behind whether I vent via Notepad or a real notepad, but at least they usually can’t tell when I’m about to well up into tears.

      -I’m more angry/upset at my mother than my ex. It was a peaceful breakup and we both knew it was coming, so the hurt is more disappointment and crushed hopes than anything else. But my ex was usually my go-to person when my parents were grinding my last nerve so after my mother’s untimely fight-picking last night I pretty much just lost it when I realized I didn’t have that bastion of sanity anymore (and I hadn’t lost it that badly even when the breakup actually happened, geez).

      -Finances preclude hotel stays (living with my parents for a reason after all); and my best friend whom I could escape to for an evening literally had her house burn down to nothing, so…no emotional respite there.

      -Finances do not preclude a dinner out with a book to escape the tension at home, so I think I’ll do that tonight. And I’ll keep the rest of the tips from y’all and Captain Awkward in mind for next week.

      Thanks, everybody. :)

      1. Red*

        When I was being smushed under home-life stress, at work I… folded square post-it notes into origami cranes. It made me oddly popular when someone saw a little family of 3 yellow cranes on my desktop. (I didn’t fold hundreds or anything crazy, just one or two when I took a brain break from my tasks.) The positive reinforcement made me feel a bit better, and a repetitive task was soothing.

  71. Mints*

    Hi everyone! I have a question about my canned recruiter response when they send me a job I’m not interested in.
    I’m asking because I had a back and forth with a recruiter that went unexpectedly sour. It ended, notably, with her telling me “I have been doing this for 36 years and know a lot. Good luck as you have been so vague I do not think you have a clue what us even out there .” I’m prepared to write her off as a big old meanie, but I thought I’d ask what y’all think of my cut and paste email I usually use:

    Hi (recruiter),
    I would be interested in an administrative or support role in maybe an HR or Operations department. An executive assistant position isn’t quite what I’m looking for, but rather a Coordinator role. I appreciate the interest, and please let me know if you have anything that would be a better fit. I’ve attached a current resume.
    Best Regards,
    (Mints)

    Sometimes I add/replace: I’d be interested in an administrative or support role in a more specialized department, rather than a general administrative assistant or office coordinator.

    I know my capitalization isn’t standard, but it seems like recruiters over capitalize.

    Anyway, let me know if it seems vague, how I could improve. (I’m also open to sympathetic “What a meanie”)

    Thanks everyone

    (I should add, this is in response to emails like “Hello Mints! I have an exciting opportunity you could be a great fit for. It’s a (description of the company) looking for a (qualities) (job title). Below is the job description”)

    2. Sadsack*

      The recruiter was needlessly mean, although I do think that your description could be more specific. You could say you are looking for an administrative assistant or an administrative coordinator position. You could specify one or the other. In my experience assistant and coordinator are basically the same level; one company might refer to an assistant while another company considers the same job to be a coordinator. You could also list the type of business you are looking to work for based on type of industry, company size, etc. I am not sure what you mean by admin support for a more specialized department versus a general admin role. I hope this is helpful!

      1. Mints*

        Thanks! Okay, so I recognize these jobs are really similar, and it’s not a huge difference between them. But generally what I’m looking for is an administrative role for a specialized department. Things like Operations Assistant, HR Coordinator, Logistics Coordinator. So I’d be doing support work for a few people, and I can learn more about that department/industry. Basically like the most junior role within a clear path. And what I’m not looking for is front desk administrative assistant, or executive assistant, or office manager, where I’d be supporting the whole office.
        But they’re mostly sending me front desk roles, so I don’t want to come off as rude, since I know that’d be a good for for me based on my resume.

        1. Sadsack*

          I think a front desk role is a receptionist, not an administrative assistant, unless it is a small office and the front desk position does everything. I don’t think that the other positions you mention are actually admin roles, they are the more specialized roles that you would like to support. I think it is good that you are thinking about a career path, but it seems like you don’t have an idea of what area you would like to work in yet. So, maybe you should just tell recruiters who contact you that you are interested in finding an administrative assistant position and then see what they suggest for you.

          You may not want to put a limit on the number of people you support until you get some details about specific positions from recruiters. How much support needed will probably depend on what type of work the group does. When I was an administrative coordinator in a legal department, I supported 3 people and was always swamped with work, but when I went to work as an admin coordinator in the IT department at the same company, I supported 24 people, but the workload was still manageable. The IT group needed much less support in the way of typing and filing and what-not than did the legal department. The IT people had no paper files and were self-sufficient at managing their own calendars. They needed different types of support, like keeping the outage calendar on the sharepoint site up to date and coordinating global meetings and events that only occurred a few times a year. Those are just a couple of examples. Because each individual didn’t need that much help day-to-day, the group of 24 was easier to handle.

          It may help you to have some conversations with people who are working as admins in a variety of areas and learn more about the type of support they provide.

        2. Sadsack*

          Also, keep in mind that the administrative assistant may not necessarily be the most junior role within a career path. You may or may not be able to transition from the admin assistant position to a higher level position without getting the required education, training, certification, etc. Being the admin assistant in IT did not put me on the career path of being an IT specialist; I was separate from the IT specialists, not necessarily junior. If I wanted to have an IT job, I’d have needed to have particular knowledge, skills, and experience that being their admin did not provide. Same with legal, I’d only have been on the legal career path if I had been in paralegal studies or law school.

          1. Mints*

            Yeah, I’m not really applying for things like admin to an IT department; I’m looking for things that can begin with administrative roles. (Which I can check sometimes with LinkedIn)
            And to your earlier point, I have had interviews for jobs like the ones I listed, so I don’t think they’re too specialized. Job titles do vary a lot regionally and between companies, though, so I think my takeaway is to give more detail. Although maybe another takeaway is just to apply to jobs myself and put less stock in recruiters generally.

  72. Jamie*

    Any non-breakfast eaters have any tips for portable protein early in the am – something easy to eat at work, stash in my desk or whatever?

    There is a medicine I take early am and it’s more effective when taken after or with protein (and no vitamin C). Fine on weekends as I love eggs, but on workdays I need to take it super early and I cannot eat eggs that early. As soon as it kicks in I’ll have no appetite at all for about 12-14 hours so I need to get this out of the way early.

    Are there specific bars that are high in protein? Drinks? Does something like Carnation instant breakfast count? Because I would love an excuse to drink that. Drinks like ensure or anything labeled a protein drink are out as I can’t get them down. Are power bars high in protein and if so are there nuts in those? Not allergic, just hate nuts so don’t want any surprises.

    I’ve tried some sliced turkey but it’s too early for meat for me – my stomach does not appreciate the assault.

    I was just hoping someone had some tips to save me actually having to learn about nutrition, which will just end in my feeling like a horrible human being.

    1. Marly*

      If you have access to a fridge, yogurt is a yummy breakfast item that is high in protein. If you need something less perishable, almonds will also do the trick.

    2. fposte*

      How do you feel about cheese? My work breakfast is a nice sliceable cheese, usually on crispbread. You could just have a hunk o’ cheese without the cracker.

      1. Jamie*

        That could work. I don’t love cheese (except American and I’m pretty sure that’s not actually food) but I can eat it and it’s so portable. If cheese sticks count that could be a plan (my God, I do have the diet of a toddler.)

        1. fposte*

          Looks like cheese sticks have some decent protein, so I think they count. (Whether they count as cheese is immaterial to the question at hand.)

        2. Trixie*

          I like those mini Baby Bels (light) with cracker of choice, or apple slices/grapes. I also like their spreadable light cheese on dense, whole grain German bread I get at Alid’s. Holds me for hours. Chia seeds can be added to anything from smoothies to milk of your choice overnight for morning treat.

        3. Elizabeth West*

          String cheese is what I take when I need something quick and light. It’s not too high in fat–just watch the cheaper brands, as they tend to salt the crap out of it. Or Babybels.

          1. Sadsack*

            Cracker Barrel has single serving sizes, yummy cheddar! Not sure if extra-sharp cheddar would disagree with you in the morning.

    3. Elysian*

      Wow, you really kick out a lot of things! Can you do yogurt? There are higher-protein types like Greek yogurt or Siggi’s Icelandic Yogurt that might work.

      Is it all types of eggs in the morning? I hard boil a bunch and those are an easy, transportable protein method that requires very little work. I can’t do deli meat in the morning, but maybe something like cold steak would work for you – steak and eggs is an actual, awesome breakfast item and you can just do it without eggs if that part doesn’t work for you. :)

      I’m not a big fan of most of the “bars” because they have a lot of sugar, etc in them. You might try a protein powder smoothie or something though. OHH and I have brownies I make out of protein powder that are actually low-sugar and delicious. They’re peanut butter chocolate fudge protein brownies. They’re amazing. Brownie breakfast – I’ll try to find a link for the recipe.

        1. Elysian*

          You might be able to sub in sunflower seed butter or something if you don’t like peanut butter. I don’t know how that would taste but they’re selling a lot of nut-butter substitutes now for nut-free schools and such.

      3. Jamie*

        That recipe would be more welcome than you know – I would love that! You had me at brownies!

        And yeah, I rule out a lot – I didn’t even think of yogurt as protein since it falls in the category of “slippery foods” which I won’t eat. Along with pudding, custard, and any gravy thicker than au jus. I know I’m ridiculous but I’ve learned to accept this about myself. :)

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          I have successfully added protein powder to pancake mix and french toast batter. Make ahead, freeze, grab and go.

    4. hildi*

      Can you do yogurt? The greek yogurt is really in protein and works pretty well for me (oddly enough, the Walmart brand of greek yogurt has been the one I like the most! It’s a 4 pack and has fruit on the bottom. It’s not chalky, either.

      I know you said eggs, so not sure if that’s eggs in any form (hardboiled?), but I have started eating an english muffin, fried egg, and slice of cheese. That keeps me full all morning. I don’t naturally like to eat meat and I am always looking for ways to get protein – the more protein in the am I have the better off I am.

      Otherwise, I’ve done Herbalife shakes and there’s tons of protein there. But those are shakes and expensive and somewhat chalky so I’m thinking that’s out for you.

      I would sugggest: hardboiled eggs, greek yogurt, or string cheese. Almonds? I know that might all overlap into no-go territory for you.

    5. Mints*

      So peanut butter is out?
      You might try lemon or fruit flavored protein bars; they won’t be nutty like a lot of the other (chocolate) bars. I’d probably go to GNC and buy a bunch of individual ones to see which are good.
      Also, regular chocolate milk? I’m not if that’s enough protein for you

    6. BRR*

      I love quest protein bars. They’re delicious, high in protein, pretty low in sugar, and high in fiber so they keep me full. I’m not sure how much protein Carnation instant breakfast has, what about a protein shake if you want something liquid?

    7. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I mix oatmeal, peanut butter (bear with me), honey, cocoa powder, yogurt, and other trail-mixy add-ins and make little oat balls. You can’t really taste the peanut butter, and if you let them firm up in the fridge they’re really easy to eat on the go. I think the ratio is 1 c oats, 1/2 c nut butter, 1/4 c honey. It’s a really easy recipe to play with.

    8. Judy*

      A half cup of dry oatmeal has 5g protein, just like an egg. If you make the oatmeal with milk, that adds some more. You can add peanut butter or other nut butters to it, or even protein powders.

      (I personally can’t have a sweet breakfast, because that makes my sweet tooth go all day.)

      If the early egg thing is more about fixing them, for a while I was making a recipe where you wrap bacon in muffin tins and pour an egg and cheese mixture in, like a mini quiche without the crust. Pop them in the microwave daily, and it’s ready to go.

    10. Lore*

      I think Luna Bars has a high-protein line–though some of those might involve nuts. (KIND bars, too, but those are very nut-happy.) Do you feel the same way about pumpkin or sunflower seeds as about nuts?

    11. EG*

      Do a Google search for low carb snacks. Things like yogurt, almond or other nuts, peanut butter on celery or crackers, all those would be a good protein. I’m not a fan of eggs in general so I try to find other ways to get my protein with breakfast. Smoothies are also great and portable.

  73. Christian*

    Sight – last week was not a good week: I was rejected from a job I thought I’m well qualified for with the explanation that I’m a weak candidate and a job interview at a firm which sounded interesting was really disappointing – I could not connect with the people at all :(

    I would love to work more in Data Science / Big-Data related industries, but my Master in Social Sciences is really holding me back. People are just assuming, that Social Scientists cannot program or do math / statistics. Never mind that I hold two jobs where programming was the core skill. That would probably proof enough for the united states, but germany looves titles so much.
    Gaining a foothold in that kind of industry could be impossible – but I have really no idea what could be an alternative. I really do not want to go back to market research.

    1. Elkay*

      Weird, I assume that social scientists will have lots of experience with big data and statistics. Good luck for the future.

    2. Ezri*

      First off, I’m sorry about your rejection. :( Rejections suck.

      Two questions:

      a) Is the programming experience clearly laid out on your resume, including which languages you used? I graduated with a degree in CS, and the programming resumes I’ve seen list which languages you’ve used. Some companies want people with experience in one particular thing, like ‘we want Java programmers’ (I take issue with this, personally, but it does happen).

      b) Does your masters come up in interviews, and if so how are you addressing it? Is there a way you can link your social science masters to the work you are applying for? I had an arts-heavy background, and when it came up in interviews I had an explanation ready for how it contributes to my programming abilities.

      Not sure if this helps. At any rate, good luck with your continued job hunt!

      1. Christian*

        Hello Ezri,
        I have a Job title Software Engineer as my last job, and added the programs I have done at my previous job to my achievements. Additionally, I added the languages I have used (C#, Python, R etc.) and the main technologies I have experience in the skills section.

        To b) Maybe – I have done a fair amount of statistical research in my masters, especially in my master’s thesis But the title is something different: “Democratic governance and civil society” – I have done a lot of tutoring and even hold my own statistics course when our departments senior statistican unexpectedly died.

        I am at a disadvantage – I would really love to work in a big data environment, but gaining experience in that field is though when you are rejected because a lot of people already have the eperience.

    3. Anonsie*

      This is weird to me because when I work in biomedical research, but when I tell people my background is in a social science they’re right away like “oh goodie, so you know how to do all the stats and use all these programs!” They know we tend to have that as a much larger part of our education than anyone else save, I guess, actual statisticians. They must not know a lot if they think social science means no technical skills.

      Can you just bring out the related tasks in your resume as the major highlights, and make sure to bring it up a few times in your letters as well?

      1. Christian*

        Anonsie, thats really good news – I really like your story!
        Where do yo come from?
        In germany, there are a lot of social sciences courses who have no statistical background at all – Marxism does not need statistics at all, being good a discussing the shortcomings of capitalism is a much more important skill ;) My program was a lot better, but the sentiment might be there nonetheless.

        I have already listed my experience as a software engineer, but I could try to put a line next to my master’S degree and explain that my thesis was pure statistcis – that could balance the title of the course.

        1. Anonsie*

          Ah I’m in the US. For a lot of our social science programs (sociology, psychology, anthropology) a major component of a graduate degree program is statistical analysis and related programming, because the expectation is that you will do research or at least need to understand the research of others. This is especially true in anthropology (my degree)– we do the Marxist analysis and then we try to prove it’s true with population statistics ;)

          That’s probably a good idea. Go through your application materials and just try to stick it in anywhere that will fit, I guess, so it’s as clear as possible.

    4. Not getting my name attached*

      Oddly enough I might have a lead for you. I work in a health insurance company and we have openings in an area that does more behavioral health and research work and are looking for non obvious fits. Go to Humana.com and look under careers for req # 127082 or 127967, plus I LOVE working here.

  74. Cath in Canada*

    The conference I’m helping to organise is only three and a half weeks away! How did that happen?! The amount of work I’m doing for it has grown exponentially, but thankfully someone from the funding agency who’s sponsoring the event is doing most of the work. And the more involved I get with this year’s conference, the better chance I have of my boss approving use of grant funds to send me to future years’ events (Japan 2015, Italy 2016. I was at last year’s meeting in Berlin, too – mostly to learn what the meeting’s like to prepare for working on this year’s event, but I also presented my working group’s update to the whole meeting).

    It’s been kinda fun, but it’s a bit like planning my wedding in that a) I will appreciate future events of this kind that I attend waaaay more than I ever did before, and b) I’m really glad I only have to do it once.

    Any tips for surviving a conference when you’re part of the organising committee and are also involved in multiple sessions? It’s going to be five full days (with evening events on three of them, so we’re talking 16 hour days) in a hotel basement with low ceilings and no natural light, and a much longer commute than usual. I’m looking forward to it, but I think it’s going to be exhausting, and I’m glad it’s the Thanksgiving long weekend immediately afterwards!

    1. Jamie*

      3.5 weeks away is October – Thanksgiving?

      I know what you mean about planning, although yours sounds more exciting. I’ve been laser focused on planning for an upcoming external audit in about 2 weeks…although that’s less like planning a wedding and more like planning a painful and invasive medical procedure which will be done in full view of everyone with whom you work.

      So perhaps less fun.

      Tips for you, though, have a little survival kit with you. Some toiletries/cosmetics for freshening up (nothing gives me a second wind like a little bathroom renewal): cleansing wipes, makeup if you wear it, toothbrush/paste, mouthwash, deodorant, spritz (if you wear it), that kind of thing. Healthy snacks (dried fruit, granola bars, pop-tarts (they are too healthy, vitamins and minerals right on the package – so there), water, etc. Make sure you have a wall charger as well as an extra external if needed, and most important of all comfortable shoes! If you’re standing all day have some invigorating after bath spritz in your bag to blast your feet in the ladies room to ease the ache.

        1. Jamie*

          Fascinating. I’ll expect a Canadian to educate me on the traditional meal in this Sunday’s non-work related free for all.

          1. Felicia*

            Thanksgiving is not as much of a big thing in Canada as it is in the US (from my understanding of US thanksgiving). At least, no one I’ve ever known has made a big deal of it. I’m fairly certain American Thanksgiving is bigger in terms of how it’s celebrated. I don’t really celebrate Thanksgiving which I don’t think is something an American will say.

            They’ve started importing the idea of Black Friday to Canada which makes no sense as we all have to work that day.

          2. Mephyle*

            Turkey, stuffing, cranberry sauce, pumpkin pie. For those who want to. Or whatever, for those who don’t.

            The big difference isn’t the food, it’s the scale of the holiday. It’s not such a big deal in Canada, more of a day off (always a Monday) than an obligatory family reunion travel event.

          3. esra*

            Basically the same as American Thanksgiving, except that weird casserole you do with green beans. And pumpkin pie instead of sweet potato. No marshmallows, creme fraiche or whipped cream preferred.

      3. Cath in Canada*

        Great tip on the survival kit – thanks! I’m friendly with one of the out-of-town attendees, so I’m hoping she’ll also let me stash a spare outfit or two in a corner of her hotel room – 16 hours is a loooooong time to not spill anything on myself.

        1. Jamie*

          Oooh – I was thinking you’d have your own room there. Definitely great idea on stashing an outfit or two onsite!

          Oh and this is a weird tip, but for me when a day goes on too long with too many people I get drained and can zone out so what helps are these little migraine cooling patches – and you don’t need a migraine to use them!

          http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/wellpatch-migraine-cooling-patches-menthol-%26-lavender-oil/ID=prod6070304-product?ext=gooMedicines_ampersand_Treatments_PLA_Migraine/Headache_Pain_Relief_prod6070304_pla&adtype=pla&kpid=sku6064150&sst=7e064207-3887-2de9-b3f5-000078b547e5&kpid=sku6064150

          Best $4 spent ever.

          this is my favorite brand and it says lavender and menthol, but the scent is gone in minutes and I put one behind my neck. They stick to your skin with a cool gummy something…doesn’t leave a residue or hurt so it doesn’t pull neck hair…and they really are cool and soothing. Have a rejuvenating quality. Back of neck and insides of wrists – although you’d need long sleeves for that not to show.

          One of those weird things I tried once and worked so well I keep it in my arsenal.

          (and for those who do get migraines they do help – they won’t relieve it of course but it is soothing.)

          1. Cath in Canada*

            I wish! But there’s no way I’d get approval for a hotel room in my own city, more’s the pity! I’m hoping I can at least get my cabs home paid for – transit to my place is fine during the day, but terrible after 9pm.

    2. AVP*

      Remember to eat! And try to schedule a few minutes per day for yourself, even if it’s just to hide in the bathroom with your forehead pressed against the wall of a stall.

    3. AVP*

      Also, I know people can be very reluctant to hand out their personal cell numbers, but if you don’t have a work mobile…I usually give out my number to the 5-6 people most likely to have logistical questions or issues, so they can text me for immediate answers. That might not work as well if you’re in the basement, but I find I can field quick organizational issues a lot more easily if they don’t require a phone call.

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Yeah, one of my tasks is to supervise all the students who are volunteering on the registration desk, getting radio mics to people asking questions etc., so there’ll be at least 20 people texting me with all kinds of questions and issues! I was at the venue on Tuesday and verified that there’s decent cell phone reception and wifi.

        And yes, I think there will be some time spent hiding in the bathrooms, hopefully resting my head rather than bashing it against the wall…

        1. AVP*

          Oh, this might be obvious, but especially if you have student volunteers…confirm everything, in email or text, twice, and don’t be shy about checking up on them more than strictly necessary. Call them in the morning if you have to, or if you don’t see them right away. Somehow my experience is that people, particularly young and new-to-the-workforce people, don’t take timeliness or reliability as seriously as I do. And if you have an event things can snowball if they don’t start out on the right foot. Good luck!

  75. You Graze Me Up*

    Anyone have any idea how much digital media services cost? Starting a business, and that kind of thing isn’t really a strong suit… I’m talking website, social media, maybe an occasional video every now and them.

    1. Christian*

      I would say: that depends on the quality of the service. But I would think that videos, social media and a website a different things best run by different people. If you are alone, you could cover the social media part easily. If you have an arts college in your region, maybe you could find a student who is good at producing videos?
      The website: there are often offers from regional companies – I would take a look at their customers websites and see if you like them. If possible, talk to the owners and ask if the company provides good service.

  76. Brittany*

    Ugh, nothing I hate more than questions like this:

    *Please provide an example of how you have established a rapport with an internal/external customer. What have you done to gain their confidence?

    I don’t have examples. I don’t remember things at the end of the day. I just do my job well without needing to pat myself on the back because I was nice to a customer.

    1. fposte*

      Is this some internal thing for an annual review? It sounds dreary, but it’ll give you a ready answer if you get asked something like that in an interview.

      1. Brittany*

        It’s a job application. I’m really struggling to come up with a specific example because I’m just not someone who really remembers things and takes them on. It’s good in the sense that I’m not someone who is affected by a bad customer or experience, but it’s bad that I don’t remember something for now..

        2. Red*

          Maybe it would be more useful for you to create a story that’s a composite of some experiences you regularly had? Some situations happen more frequently than others in my job, and while I may not remember specifics each time (even for the more aggravating events), I can usually summon an outline of something that happened often where I used some soft skill on my resume to work things out with a high-touch client.

    2. Kyla*

      I get the equally annoying “Give a specific time where you went above the beyond the requirements of your role?” because I would say I’m someone who does what she is supposed to and does it pleasantly and does it well, but I’m not really someone who takes on a whole lot of extra work/volunteers to stay back late without pay to ‘suck up’ to management. (I’m in a call center, trying to get out of that work).

      1. Joey*

        The reason you do extra is not to “suck up” unless you don’t care about getting a better job. The reason you do extra is so you can tell the hiring manager at the place you want to work that you are the type of worker who will give them more for their money.

          1. fposte*

            I don’t know that it’s that simple. It’s not like doing less encourages people to be overpaid, after all.

            I have to say, though, I don’t like the question; it sounds the foolishness of insisting people “give 110%.” You can ask about a time when they think they performed especially well or really satisfied a customer without making it sound like their role is to exceed their role.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Think back to when you were new to the job. What did you do to show people that you were approachable/conversational?

      More currently, if someone asks you for something, I would be willing to bet you do not throw a pen at them. So what is that you actually do?

    4. CLT*

      Think about times you have dealt with a difficult customer or coworker, or perhaps a time when there was a misunderstanding that you needed to straighten out. The question isn’t asking you to pat yourself on the back. It’s asking you to reflect on the way you interact with other people, and to remember a time when you had to consciously make an effort to build a relationship or rapport. The interviewer wants to know whether you can recognize your role in a relationship. Team work requires conscious effort – demonstrate consciousness.

  77. CheeryO*

    Is anyone here familiar with the engineering consulting industry? I’m three months into my first full-time position, and I’m paid around market rate for a junior engineer. However, our marketing person took some creative liberties in my hiring announcement, turning three summer’s worth of internships and a TA position into “five years of specialized experience in her field.” I’m also being billed at almost five times my hourly salary. What makes me particularly nervous is that I’m the first person in my specialty to be hired in about a decade, and I feel like I was only hired as part of a marketing scheme that I’m not really equipped for. Is this actually at all shady, or am I overreacting? Should I let it go as long as my responsibilities don’t drift beyond what the other junior engineers do?

    2. Lizz*

      From a fellow young engineering consultant – don’t be nervous – this is totally normal! 4-5 times your hourly salary is typical, as the company needs to cover overhead and you won’t be 100% billable to client work. The fact that your company’s marketing person inflated your years of experience is not necessarily a bad thing, especially when (I’m assuming) most people in your industry will have experience in the double digits. It’s also easier, and more in line with company language to write marketing materials that say “cheeryo has 5 years of experience in the field” rather than “cheeryo studied (subject) in x, y, and z classes and is a relevant contributor to our team”.

      If the company hasn’t hired anybody in about a decade, I’m guessing that some folks are older… does it make sense that the company wants to build up more staff positions that will continue to be there when those folks retire? I know at my company, to be competitive and keep project costs reasonable, we need more new staff because they bill out at lower rates and it balances out the high rates of senior staff.

      If your responsibilities do grow to more than what others do, and you do this work reliably and well, kudos! You were given opportunities to demonstrate your skills, and can now try to negotiate a raise or promotion with good justification. If it feels overwhelming, speak up! Ask for training, or if your time is being pressed, don’t be afraid to let people know how much of your time is already committed to projects, and let them know when you will be available to work on their project. If you have good managers, they should take this into account when scheduling work and staffing.

      Stay confident in your abilities and learn all you can! I think this sounds like a fantastic opportunity – often if you don’t have a lot of other peers to ‘compete’ with, you can get involved with projects that others at large firms with lots of bureaucracy aren’t able to.

  78. Ali*

    Please continue to keep your fingers crossed for me. I just found out the one job I really want is in the process of evaluating resumes. A manager in the department I applied for said they’re going through now. I don’t know if mine has been reviewed yet (she didn’t say either way), but it’s comforting to know I’m probably still in the running. This would be close to a dream job for me in terms of duties as well as the work/life balance it would offer. Send some good vibes that I can get an interview!

  79. Calla*

    I am in the process of interviewing with my previous employer (again). It’s something I had been entertaining the thought of, but one of my bosses from Previous Job reached out about a job posted there in a department adjacent to his. It’s in a different office than the one I left, would be a move up, and the salary would be higher (disclaimer: not posted–significantly higher according to GlassDoor which seems accurate on the other salaries based on my knowledge, but I’m tempering expectations). And I had a phone interview at lunch today that seemed to go well! Interviewer at Previous Job understood my reasons for leaving originally, and I think I was able to make a good case with (paraphrased) “I’m not job searching, but Old Boss reached out about this position in particular and I loved you guys and there are some pain points here I didn’t foresee, so I’m interested.” He liked that I have worked there before and my noticeable passion for the company’s mission.

    ASSUMING this goes all the way to an offer… thoughts on how to give notice and how to put it on my resume? I would probably have about 4 months at current job by time it gets to an offer stage.

  80. Hlyssande*

    I am super pumped today!

    Friday got off to a great start for me when I figured out how to fix something the developers said couldn’t be done. HAH. Take that! It was a simple matter of moving two fields to the same tab as the rest of the related information and linking them together so they’d flip with everything else as needed.

    It’s an application we’ve been working on for years to allow users to request customer accounts to be created in the global customer database, and the newest incarnation allows for customers in some countries with non-Latin character sets to be created in both Latin and their native language.

    I treated myself to an iced pumpkin spice chai and a pair of mini donut muffins from Caribou for being awesome.

    1. annie*

      I would be interested in hearing other people’s opinions on this as well. I have considered getting one because I love learning and many jobs I am interested in say “MBA preferred” but I sort of doubt the payoff would be worth it.

    2. C Average*

      I’m also interested in hearing responses to this. I’ve just started an evening MBA program and I’m really enjoying it so far. Fortunately it’s something that fits in with my work schedule and we’re cash-flowing my tuition and fees. I don’t have any clearly defined career path laid out. I’m just interested in work stuff and it sounded like a fun way to open up more career options.

    3. MBA Spouse*

      Note: As indicated, I don’t have an MBA. My husband just graduated from a second-tier MBA program (top 25, not top 5), so my observations are based on that experience.

      My husband’s MBA “paid off” hugely. He more than doubled his salary+bonus from the job he had immediately prior to starting his MBA (he made around $50,000 as a low-level financial analyst, and now makes $100,000 + a bonus that has typically varied from 15 – 30% of his salary) and is now on a career track that is more interesting and has a lot more opportunities for growth and advancement. He was hired into a leadership development program at a Fortune 500 company; within three years he should be at a director level. I think the average first-year salary for grads in his program is something like $90,000 (not counting international students, which is a large cohort and have a much harder time finding jobs in the US).

      There is a whole secret world of MBA recruitment. TONS of jobs at big companies that are essentially only available to MBA students at top-tier programs (i.e., the only recruitment that happens is on campus, and you’re essentially only competing against other second-year MBA students; in some cases there are openings that are “set aside” for certain programs, so you’re only competing against the people in your class). It’s a huge benefit that we didn’t even understand before he started.

      My impression, though, is that there are relatively few paths out of an MBA program that lead to these kind of results. The folks who left my husband’s program into well-paying, leadership-track jobs were either doing operations/logistics management (and came into the program with some background in logistics), marketing, finance/investment banking, or consulting (mostly external consulting, like McKinsey or Deloitte). There are a few folks in the nonprofit or government sector, creating startups, or trying to work in venture capital.

      So I would say: Definitely worth it IF you attend a Top 25 program (full time) AND want to work in marketing, finance, or consulting.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Definitely not worth it in my area. It will make you not hire-able. Know your area, before going forward.

  82. Jamie*

    I’m hoping a retail manager out there can answer this for me, because it’s come up a couple of times this week. Why do they advertise for a position in one store and not mention until they get to the interview that, oh btw, would you be able to work in this other store in a completely different town?

    My daughter is looking for another job and has been jumping through all the usual hoops with online applications (she’s in college so looking for part time around her schedule – she currently works in fast food service but the managers keep over scheduling her and making her close “because we don’t have a lot of people we trust to close” so rather than train more they just drive one way – smart.)

    Anyway she got two interviews this week and both times she interviewed in the stores nearby, which is what the ads said, and both times they asked her if she would take a job in other stores much further away which she can’t.

    Why don’t they mention this on the phone when they schedule the interview? If they advertise for a shift that starts at X and she can get there with her hours so applies that doesn’t mean she can make it at X if it’s 20 miles away. It seems like such a stupid waste of time for them and the candidates?

    And why do fast food managers tell someone they will change their availability for school and not do it, keeping telling them they “forgot” and next week will be different but it never is. Why not just come out and say no, we need you to work close so if that doesn’t work for you thanks for the years here? Why keep leading her on? She works SO much – she’s the first one they call when someone cancels because she will always cover if not in class – they totally take advantage of the fact that she’s trained in all areas and have her do manager close responsibilities without manager pay? That I know why, but I don’t get the lying about the schedule and if you need more people to trust to close why not fill that gap – because if you drive them away they won’t be closing!

    And I am not paying good money for school so she can come home at 2:30 am and be in class at 8:00 am because they can’t get their schedules straight.

    And I have NOT gone over there to have a manager a manager talk with them – so I have that boundary at least.

    1. CollegeAdmin*

      Jamie, in a weird way I hope no one can answer your question, because I hope such terrible managers don’t hang out here at AAM. Clearly they wouldn’t have been picking up any info! Sorry to hear your daughter’s having such issues :(

      1. Jamie*

        Thanks. It sucks not getting interviews, but it sucks even more when you go through all the work to prepare and the nerves just to find out it was all for nothing.

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      This has happened to me before! The shop wasn’t far away from the one I was interviewing at though. Where I ended up working was a much larger shop than my interview one but it had a horrible, crazy manager and I lasted 2 weeks before leaving…which was a shame because my interview lady was so, so lovely.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      If they’re not telling her, then she might need to start asking them, “Is this job located at your store?” I had to start asking about accounting when I was looking because no one wanted to admit they were hiring one person to do the job of two (front desk and doing the books). It was a total waste of time for me to interview if they wanted me to do their books.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This is fairly common stuff in retail.
      I always felt it was because of the overlap in characteristics of leaders and characteristics of psychopaths. It’s a fine line there, sometimes.
      But that’s just my opinion.

      Retail does this because they can get away with it.
      Yeah, they do advertise for numerous locations at once. I think it helps with their advertising expense and recruitment costs. Think about it, if you treat people like they are a dime a dozen then you are going to have to be in constant hiring mode. So why fix the actual problem but rather just see if you can minimize costs and keep doing what you are doing.

      The number one reason I have heard is that they tend to blame it on a consumer driven market. People want hamburgers/big screens/cell phones NOW, not five minutes from now. It’s all because this is what consumers want. It justifies treating people poorly. Yet, oddly, I have never heard anyone say, “Yes, I would like a hamburger and please kick the crap out of that employee over there.”

  83. Rebecca*

    On the hunt for a good interview outfit, so far I think a black jacket, neutral color top underneath, and a black knee length or just below the knee skirt are in the running, plus maybe an navy option. It’s hard to find dress shoes (large feet) but I’m persevering! I picked out Liz Claiborne brand as they are available in my size and seem to have a good, basic look.

    I reached out to management about the whole no merit raises, no COLA increases, but increasing insurance copay situation, which is resulting in lower take home pay each year, and they said they appreciate my concerns, don’t want me to leave, and they’d get back to me…but all I hear are crickets. In lieu of more money, I asked for additional vacation time and permission to work from home several days per month. No response, and it’s been over a week. I took some cues from a recent article I read here about what it would take for you to stay at a job you’re unhappy with.

    So, I went through my desk drawers today and tossed a bunch of things, and came across thank you notes I had saved over the years from our sales staff praising my work. I kept those, and whittled everything else down to whatever can fit in a small box so it’s not a lot of drama for me when I leave.

    It just feels so final, and after working for only 3 companies in my whole working life, nearly 30 years, I just feel like my contributions are no longer needed or valued. I really hope this isn’t the “new normal” in the post recession work world.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I’m so sorry you’re feeling unappreciated. That’s just the worst.

      I don’t know if buying some new shoes will help you, BUT IT MIGHT, so let me share my absolute fave work shoes: Naturalizer flats. If you buy them on Zappos, they come in tons of sizes and widths, they’re super comfy, and they’re the perfect overlap of interesting (i.e. not totally unadorned ballet flats) and professional. I have the ones with the basket weave top in 3 colors and every time I wear a pair out, I replace them with the exact same shoe.

      1. Rebecca*

        I need new dress shoes desperately. Right now, I’m in an extremely casual environment, except when we have visitors. I’ve had good luck finding things on 6 PM, and I believe Zappos is part of that group, and Amazon. Finding a size 12 that fits is a challenge (cue the Peggy Hill microwave shoe box comments :) ).

        My resume is updated, and ready to go. Now I want to have a nice basic outfit with decent shoes and accessories at the ready so I don’t have to stress if I get a call for an interview. This site has been invaluable. I’ve only been on 3 interviews in my entire life, and have a feeling that’s going to change to many, many more before all is said and done.

        1. Jillociraptor*

          I think so too! :) Really, you can’t overstate feeling really good in what you’re wearing for giving you confidence in an interview. Hoping you have a whole bunch to wear your new shoes to!

    2. Trixie*

      Good call on the interview outfit. Add a pair of simple earrings or understated necklace and see what you think. I find it so helpful to think about these things now so when you do start getting calls, you can focus on other details. Good luck!

    3. Joey*

      Most of the time they’re just passing on some of the cost of premiums and are taking a hit themselves. It’s really not helpful to try to use those things as leverage for perks because then they’d need to be prepared to do it for everyone else.

      Look around at other jobs to get some perspective.

      1. Rebecca*

        I know insurance premiums are expensive, and will just get worse. Right now, my copays amount to 14% of my gross pay. I don’t make a lot of money, under $40K per year, so when my paycheck slides backward year after year, it’s hard to juggle. My weekly take home pay has gone back to 2008 levels, but unfortunately, prices haven’t. I can only go on this way for so long.

    4. Jamie*

      I’m not a label conscious person but I realized some years ago that all the work clothes that made me look the most polished and gave me such confidence were Liz Claiborne. There is something about the way they hang that just works for me – makes even a simple blazer and slacks feel professional and kind of elegant. Shoes are the same – they are comfy but still dressy. She’s the working woman’s friend, that Liz.

      I’m so sorry you feel that way. I’ve been there and it’s a horrible feeling, when you put so much of yourself into something and feel like it doesn’t matter. I hope they come back to you with something – if you want to work from home maybe that will help? I hope things turn around, or you find something great.

      1. Rebecca*

        I’d be willing to stay if I could get something for my efforts past “you should be lucky you have a job”. My commute is almost 50 miles round trip, and I do car pool, but it’s cumbersome and it takes an hour and 20 minutes now. I’d love to be able to work from home 3 or 4 days per month, and I’d like 5 more paid vacation days (bringing the total from 15 to 20).

    5. voluptuousfire*

      Google Bandolino Flex pumps, especially the Zadina pump. They’re perfect for interviews: close toed, conservative and comfortable. I own two pairs, a taupe patent leather and a black pair. The heel tops out at 2″ and the shoes I think come in medium and wide width. I wouldn’t be able to walk in them all day (I’m not used to heels) but they’re wide enough for my wide Flintstone feet and easy to walk in. The footbed is also thickly padded and also has a flexible sole, which is why I bought them. The price is nice as well.

  84. Fact & Fiction*

    I just wanted to update on the editorial position I really wanted and went through several steps of hiring for. I’m excited to say that on Tuesday, I received the job offer for the position and I start on Monday. They said they’re very excited about my experience and initiative and I’m so thrilled at this opportunity because it’s exactly what I want to do. It doesn’t hurt that the salary and benefits are nice, and that the company seems like a great place to work. Hopefully, everything will go well! I just wanted to thank Ask a Manager for all of the great advice she provides, because it definitely helped me start writing vastly superior cover letters (ironic, since I’m a professional writer/editor, but it just goes to show that everyone can stand to learn!).

  85. Chelsea*

    Can someone help me out with an answer to a question like “Where would you like to see your career progressing in the next 2 years?” when being interviewed for jobs where I’m not planning to stay for that long. I’m going back to school in a years time to study accounting and finance and looking for a job to save money in the interim, and I’m getting asked this in retail jobs.

    1. CLT*

      If you weren’t going back to school and suddenly found yourself needing to make a long-term commitment to this employer, what would your answer be? It it’s retail, they are probably just wanting to know if you think you are management material.

  86. Ambee*

    I wanted to share a success story here! Yesterday I was asked to review a job posting my company is putting up. I made some edits for my colleague and then came to the line “while we will review all submissions, we will only contact those selected for an interview.”

    When I returned the edited piece I fade a note recommending we delete that line and set up a system for sending polite rejection emails. I added that it was hard on candidates to never hear back from a company. My suggestion was accepted and now we’ll email all candidates back. :) I felt pretty darn good about myself.

    2. Diet Coke Addict*

      Well done! And great on you for putting something good out into the world that will be a great boon for future jobseekers!

    3. Rebecca*

      Good for you! My manager is terrible at this, too. She never tells people a job was filled, or calls them back 2 or 3 times – yes, this many – then if she doesn’t hire them, never tells them the job was filled. Our clerical person had enough of this, and took it upon herself to call people, and thanked them for their time. My manager doesn’t think it’s necessary.

  87. Adiposehysteria*

    I know I’m way down on the thread, but I hope someone sees this.

    I work as a freelance writer and have been building up my client base for a number of years. Unfortunately, I have been having serious health problems and within the next month or two, I am going to be winding up my writing so I can deal with those issues.

    I would like to know what is the best way to do this so that I don’t completely destroy my relationship with these clients. I’ve had very bad luck with dropping clients in the past because usually writers are seen as a dime a dozen, even though my writing is pretty specialized. I am hoping in 3-4 months I can go back to some of it, but I don’t know for sure and can’t make any promises. Am I stuck having to just figure I am going to have to start over with finding clients?

    1. annie*

      I’m sorry you’re having health issues. I would treat this similarly to how you would in an office and even call it a “medical leave” if you want, as you explain it to your clients. I think you have to be prepared that some of them may find other people while you are out, but if you give them notice of your being unavailable, that would at least be a courtesey to them so that they can make other plans for the projects you work on. I think when you are ready to come back, you’ll have to do a lot of networking/marketing, but you definitely have chance of regaining some of those clients.

    2. Mephyle*

      Do you know any freelance colleagues that can do the specialized writing that you do? Because if you do, they are probably in high demand, too, and if/when you come back they will be swamped with work and will be glad to return your clients to you.

  88. Women's Business Casual Help*

    Soon I will be starting at a new company with a business casual dress code. My two prior jobs were casual dress code, and I’m trying to figure out what I need to buy. I read sites like Corporette and Capitol Hill Style, but those are more focused on lawyers and formal business wear / designer clothes, which does not fit what I am going into.

    For context at the interviews at the new company – the two people who would be my managers were men wearing suits without the jacket, a female coworker was wearing a casual/summer jersey dress with a cardigan and sandals, and other people I saw around the office were wearing things ranging from black pants and nice blouses with pumps to sporty type of skirts and tank tops with gym shoes. There was also a guy in beat up jeans and a polo shirt, and a woman in what I can only describe as a grandma-style track suit. It seems pretty haphazard and not really enforced, but I’d like to make a good impression, obviously. I am not a fan of skirts/dresses, and I don’t have a ton of money to spend. Any advice appreciated!

    1. AVP*

      Weirdly Target has some decent options, if there’s one near you. I would tilt toward the “nice pants/casual blouse” end of the spectrum so you can start out with a good impression / take the temperature for more casual clothing. Maybe you can get 2 pairs of “career material” pants (yes, thats what they called them in my old retail job) and a few button-up shirts, and then rotate them with more casual shirts you already own?

      Also, Express and Gap usually have good sales – I don’t know if this is still going on but my favorite button-up shirts from Gap were on sale for $30 a few weeks ago, getting rid of their summer colors and patterns.

      1. AVP*

        Oh, found it – on gap.com, it’s the fitted boyfriend shirt – I wear those to work all the time, still on sale. Plus 25% off with the code HAPPY. Ugh, now I’m buying one too.

      2. Rebecca*

        I found some basic blazers just now on Target dot com – Merona? brand, I think, and they’re on clearance. I’d need a 1X in these, and it looks like they have Navy, Black, and Light Grey.

    2. Christine*

      Have you taken a look at The Classy Cubicle? She has a lot of creative outfits that tend to be on the side of business casual. The looks are varied enough that I can usually pull something together that’s “inspired” by the site out of my own wardrobe. Great for getting out of a rut without spending more money!

    3. KJR*

      I will put in a plug for Marshall’s/TJ Maxx! Nice, fashionable clothing at reasonable prices. (And no, I don’t work there! :) )

    4. Elizabeth*

      I like H&M (they have an officewear section with a lot of cute business-casual stuff), Express, New York & Company, and The Limited, all of which are pretty popular among my 20- and 30-something female co-workers. Granted, I am more of a skirt/dress girl (hemming pants gets expensive), but I understand the budget thing and if you can catch these places while they’re having a sale, you can get a lot of bang for your buck. For instance, Express is having a 20% off $50, 30% off $100, 40% off $200 sale right now.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        I recommend JCPenney’s Worthington line. Their merch is generally decent and is usually on sale. If you have a coupon for another percentage off, you can really do quite nicely. I got a Worthington open front blazer in a beautiful shade of royal/cobalt blue (to go over a black sheath dress) and it was originally $68 and with sales and a coupon it cost me $24. Quite often I’ll order stuff online if I can have it delivered to the store (which is usually free or low cost) and use a coupon that I can only use online. I usually save a lot of money that way.

  89. Mona*

    Does anyone have any advice about dealing with the drama at work? It seems no matter where I go, there is drama. In my current position the team I am on is all women, don’t get me wrong, the last place I was at men were involved in the drama and gossip. One of the women recently got back from leave and she is feuding with one that recently got married and one that got a pseudo-promotion, over what I don’t know and don’t really want to know or care. I keep my head down and do my job, I tend to remember the quote that is attributed to Catherine of Aragon, “mind your tongue and meddle nothing,” and that’s what I do, but now we have to have a meeting with our manager who wants to get it all out in the open and discuss it. I think it should be handled between the parties involved and the manager, the fewer people involved, the better. What do you guys think?

    1. AnonyMouse*

      If you feel uncomfortable taking part in the meeting, you could go to your manager and say something like “I’m glad you’re helping Jane and Andrea work through their issues, but I’ve really been trying to stay out of that dispute. If you want me in the meeting, I’m of course able to be there, but if you’d like to restrict it to people who are more directly involved in the conflict, I’ll understand that too.” Although as with all manager-related advice, I guess this depends on the kind of relationship you have!

      1. C Average*

        Having recently been directly involved in some work drama with a colleague (I didn’t exactly go looking for it, but I sort of bumbled into it–long story), I’d have been mortified if my manager had dragged innocent bystanders into some Great Big Discussion about it. Maybe you can leverage these women’s feelings to make your case for sitting this one out: “It seems like feelings are already running pretty high between Jane and Andrea. I’ve worked really hard to focus on my work and stay out of their interpersonal issues, and I really don’t know or need to know the details. I’m thinking this will likely be an easier conversation for them if it’s a private discussion. I really don’t have anything to contribute to the discussion. I think my being there might make them uncomfortable, and frankly it would make me a little uncomfortable, too.”

    2. Nanc*

      Yeah, it’s your manager’s problem but it sounds like she doesn’t want to manage it. If they insist on your feedback, stick to work issues only, as in “Pansy Parkinson is now head prefect, does that mean this portion of my job needs to include her for feedback?” or something along those lines. Only comment on what impacts you doing your job. Otherwise my instinct would be to play dumb and disavow any knowledge of the personal brouhaha.

      1. Jamie*

        Agreed – sounds like she doesn’t want to deal with the people causing the problem so she’s going to cover it in a generic “everyone needs to talk about this departmental problem which is really not about everyone.”

        If someone violated IT policy I don’t have a company meeting to talk about “people” not adhering to policy – I talk to the violators. Because always, always, always the people who are completely innocent are the only ones who listen and the ones being targeted blithely assume it wasn’t about them since it was to “everyone.”

        I like AnonyMouses wording on how to phrase it.

        1. Rebecca*

          You hit the nail right on the head. The manager doesn’t want to deal with it. This is what my manager does. Everyone gets called into her office, we all stand there while she blathers on, and the one person who should be thinking – oh, I did that, and I should stop, doesn’t think it’s her and things continue as before. We call it the Kumbaya Meeting, and are thankful we don’t have to hold hands and sing afterward.

  90. Anonsie*

    So here’s something that’s been rattling around in my head for a long while since this last got brought up here. If you have an unpaid 30 minutes deducted for your lunch break, do you tack on an extra 30 minutes of work so you’re paid for 40 full hours or do you still only work 40 hours and then get paid for 37.5 hours per week? I’ve seen both but I wonder which is more common.

    1. Jamie*

      For hourly people I’ve always seen schedules which include 8.5 hours so the half hour lunch still leaves you with 40. Just my experience.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I work 8-5 with an unpaid hour lunch, which makes 40 hours. That would be nine hours without the lunch. Every place I’ve had a half hour was like 7-3, which would have been 37.5. I think full time is at 32 hours, isn’t it?

    5. CheeryO*

      I have worked 8:30-5 with a half hour lunch and 7:30-4:30 with an hour lunch. In my experience, the jobs that are actually only 37.5 hours per week always bring it up in the interview since it’s a nice perk.

    6. Kerr*

      For almost every job I’ve held, the schedule was set up with an additional 1 or 1/2 hour tacked on to account for the unpaid break. Most commonly, the schedule is 8-5, with a 1-hour lunch. 30-minute lunches are the worst.

    7. Persephone Mulberry*

      I work 8-4:30 with a half hour unpaid lunch that I rarely take, so I usually get paid for 40 hours plus up to 2.5 hours of overtime.

      The best gig I ever had was 8:30-4:30 with an hour PAID lunch. Paid 40 hours for 35 hours of work.

  91. AVP*

    Rant: I work on the same block that hosts a major festival for ten days every September. They shut down the street, set up a stage in front of my building, and have a goddamn concert plus eating contest every afternoon. Yesterday featured an opera-style singer doing Sinatra. Today’s concert hasn’t started yet but they’re warming up with “Dominic the Donkey.”

    Also, it smells like zeppoles and sausage sandwiches and now I’m hungry. Grr. Go hooooome tourists.

    1. Jamie*

      God help you. And I thought it was bad when I had to deal with traffic when the Sox are in town. At least no singing.

    2. Felicia*

      That sucks! We have a 4 day festival that happens outside our office, but we get to leave early at least.

      1. AVP*

        I know and I actively enjoy being a tourist in other people’s towns! Sigh. Today is “techno dj day” at the festival so at least there’s no singing.

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I feel your pain. I work right by a certain baseball stadium. Stop clogging up my home commute, sports fans!

    5. Nanc*

      Ouch! I like and work in a tourist town–luckily for Shakespeare fans who are pretty low key. Any chance someone from your company could get on the festival committee and help choose the acts? Or at the very least score free food?

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Was it Dominic, The Italian Christmas Donkey? I’m a dork, but that’s one of my favorite Christmas songs. :) They used to play it on the top 40 station when I was a kid and it takes me back.

  92. De Minimis*

    Craziest thing this week…we had a boil order on our water till Wednesday. They found fecal coliform in the water supply here!

    Only good part is they bought a bunch of bottled water for everyone to drink.

  93. Christine*

    I’ve been working at a public university for a little over a year. Due to the limitations of space in my department, my cubicle is in a very separate part of the office. When I first took the job, I thought I would be fine – I’m an introverted person, and I don’t mind being by myself most of the time. But over the last four months, it’s driven me to the point of despair – I’ve realised it’s worse to be surrounded by people and conversations you’re not a part of than to be totally alone. I feel so depressed coming into work, and I’m finding it incredibly hard to stay focused without the natural break that comes with a colleague coming in to ask a question, have a chat, etc. It’s getting to the point that I’m looking elsewhere simply for the opportunity to have interaction at my work.

    My questions are: is it worth bringing this up to my manager, if I know there’s nothing she can do about it (because there’s physically no room in the main office)? And any tips for keeping my sanity during the day?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I’d tell her. Then she’ll know that if a spot opens up in the main area, you’d be really interested in taking it. If I were your manager, I’d be making a point to stop over every so often to say hi, and maybe sending other teammates over instead of calling/emailing.

      I wonder: how has it been getting to know the people who work in your area, even though they’re not in your department?

      1. Christine*

        Thanks for your reply. It’s been a challenge. The area I am in is a very close group of ladies about 30 years older than myself who have been at the uni and working together for years- they’re not cliquey in an unkind way, just in the way that comes with a lot of familiarity and shared history. We say hi in the morning about that’s about it. Our work is totally separate (I’m in admissions and they are in physical resources), so we don’t have any crossover.

        1. Ann O'Nemity*

          If you’re feeling that much unhappiness, you should probably speak up. Let your manager know that you’re really interested in moving to the main office as soon as a spot opens since you’re feeling isolated. And if possible, let the ladies in your area know that you’re feeling a bit isolated as well. If they have any kindness in their hearts, they’ll likely be more inclusive.

        2. KJR*

          Our CEO and I are in a separate part of the building than everyone else, so when he is out, I am on my own. It’s not every day, but he can be gone for hours at a time several times a week. It does get really lonely and I am always so happy when someone makes a point to stop by for a quick hello. Previously I was in a large room with several other people, and I really miss that. I am also an introvert, so I was really surprised that these long stretches by myself have caused an issue. I realized I need to be around people more than I thought I did! I must say checking in with AAM throughout the day helps!!

        3. Jillociraptor*

          That is tough. When I feel isolated, this is hard advice to implement, but I would recommend that you more proactively have social interactions with the women in your area. Not all day every day butting in, but try to have one conversation a day with one of them. Asking for advice (even if you don’t actually need it), asking about their weekends, just something small but something that maybe makes you less “part of the scenery” and more “someone who works here”.

          In their minds they’re probably not thinking actively about including you (as you say, not because they’re thoughtless but because their social relationships are already solidified) so you’re probably going to have to do the legwork here, which feels like a bummer when you’re already feeling isolated. But I think it will probably make you feel better, so it might be worth it.

          Sorry this is happening. I just moved to a new city and work from home, so I understand how challenging this kind of isolation is! I hope this turns around for you!

          1. Christine*

            Thank you, I appreciate it. I definitely should (and will) be more proactive about this, both in terms of starting conversations and speaking with my manager.

    2. Dasha*

      I am kind of in a situation like this. Can you get up and take some breaks during the day? At first it was hard for me but now I’ve gotten used to it (even though I’d prefer a different setting if I could have it…)

    3. HR Anonymous*

      Just wanted to second some of the other suggestions: ask your boss if you can be moved. Perhaps they could rotate people through that desk 6 months at a time (instead of having to wait for someone to quit?).

      Proactively seek out interactions. When you take breaks, chat with people in the lunchroom/breakroom. Invite people to lunch. Even, perhaps, make lunch dates with friends or people you know outside of work, to help fill in the times when coworkers aren’t available.

      I’m an introvert, too, but I know there’s a limit to how much alone time I can handle. I surprise myself by inviting people to do things like go to lunch — something I’d almost never do if I was near “people overload” level. It’s actually quite nice to be the ask-er once in a while :)

  94. Christine*

    Also, Alison – do you think you may be offering resume review at some point in the near future? I’m kicking myself for not taking advantage of it the last time you offered.

    3. Mimmy*

      I’m always saying I’m going to do it, but keep chickening out because I can’t bring myself to justify the cost to my husband (no offense to you Alison!!). I know it’s relatively inexpensive, but I’m a little cautious when it comes to financial matters.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Possibly not until early next year, but if my schedule slows down a bit (which I’m taking steps to try to make happen), maybe a little sooner? Email me in a month and nag me about it :)

  95. Jill-be-Nimble*

    Hypothetical dress code question: If working in an office with a more strict dress code (want things more professional), what’s the bigger sin: Showing up in nice jeans and a nice, professional shirt, or showing up in a dress that is slightly too low-cut/obviously needs to be pinned to keep from showing cleavage?

    I just started a new temp job that has much dressier requirements than I’m used to–my last place was all jeans, all the time. I ran out of very professional clothes today, and the only “officy” thing that I had left is a dress that I have to pin closed. Unfortunately, the pin is super-obvious and my bra still keeps peeking out no matter how much I yank the dress up. (I had a cardigan stashed here until yesterday, of course, but then I got soup on it and took it home last night.) I’m so embarrassed and hiding in my office all day so no one notices. I also just found out that they do casual Fridays here! Grrr….

      1. The IT Manager*

        I’d agree but it’s going to vary by person. If jeans are clearly not allowed in the dress code, though, the dress even with peek-a-boo cleavage is better because it’s no going to be banned, and remember that no one is paying as much attention to what you’re wearing as you are.

    2. Sadsack*

      Going with the dress was probably the better choice. I think jeans would not be considered professional attire, even if they are very dark denim trousers – except for casual Friday! Wearing a cami under the dress might be a good idea, then you’d have nothing to worry about, as long as it isn’t a sun dress. Even on casual Friday, that probably wouldn’t be appropriate.

    3. shirley*

      I’m sure no one notices! For next time, do you have a cami or a short cami-bra thing you could wear under the dress?

    4. Jamie*

      I’d go with the dress – jeans are read as unprofessional off the bat.

      Fwiw if I saw an obvious safety pin I’d assume the dress had a hidden inner hook which broke and you’re just getting through the day. I wouldn’t think twice about that as long as the dress is otherwise okay for the office (ie no crazy slits or sequins.)

    6. Jill-be-Nimble*

      Thanks guys! Yes, I think that I’m focusing on my chest more than most people are (at least, I hope!) This is a one-time, terrible thing. I’ve already ordered more professional clothes; they just haven’t come in yet (including a new dress and a better cover-up). I also now know that casual clothes are OK on Fridays! Between having more professional clothes and fewer days I have to wear them, I hopefully won’t run into this again!

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Hey, us dress wearing women have all had to pin something closed at some point or another. No one notices.

  96. Lisa*

    I just need a place to vent!

    I wish more job seekers would utilize wonderful resources such as Ask A Manager before they vomited their awful applications all over my inbox. I know that is harsh, but I just can’t take it anymore!

    The job posting is very detailed and notes (in several places) that resumes received without cover letters will not be considered for the position. So far, less than 30% have included cover letters. That generous number includes those where writing “I am a perfect match for this job!” in their email body as a “cover letter”. Some even just attached a photo of themselves. No resume, no cover letter, just a photo. This isn’t an ad agency, modeling agency, or movie company. We’re a medical office!

    Please, job seekers of the world, please…we WANT to hire you. Don’t spend your entire cover letter and resume telling me about how great you are by listing your generic skills with NO details about what you’ve actually done to utilize those skills, what you’ve accomplished, etc. I shouldn’t read three pages about you and still have no idea what actual experience you have.

    I just want to give someone a job that pays well and has great benefits. I feel like I should put “must regularly read AAM” in my future job postings LOL!

    1. Jill-be-Nimble*

      Hah! I’m sorry–I know you’re frustrated, but I laughed at your post. (JUST A PICTURE?!?!) Personally, I kind of hope people don’t so that I’m one of the few coherent people who eventually gets a job! But that’s just selfish of me. Best of luck in hiring! Just think: they’re making the weeding-out process really easy for you!

    2. KMC*

      I had the exact same issue when we hired for our last position. We were very clear about requiring a cover letter, even bolding that part, and I still received mostly applications with no cover letter. It’s so frustrating!

    3. Jen RO*

      We are hiring for a technical writer job. We are getting resumes without any *writing* in them. We’re not requiring previous experience, but you *are* getting rejected if all you put down is your job title and period you held it!

        1. Jen RO*

          Romania… sorry :(
          (Which is why we’re not requiring experience – there are no TW programs and the field is very new here.)

      2. Anx*

        If you are trying to keep your resume down to one page and you have several experiences that are relevant but not directly related to the job (for example, a career changer or someone trying to break into a field), I can’t imagine having room to write down accomplishments or even job duties for every job.

        In that case, would it preferable to have a functional resume so you can write more about some, but not all of the positions? Or would it be preferable to have some of the job titles speak for themselves and only expand on some of them (I find this very disorganized looking from a visual standpoint)?

    4. AnonyMouse*

      Wow, I know people do this kind of stuff regularly, but it’s still baffling to me that anyone wouldn’t follow the written directions for a job posting! I mean, I guess I understand the temptation to just submit a resume after writing about a thousand cover letters (not that I would!), but just a picture??

    5. Nanc*

      Come on over here and sit next to me in the crabby corner! I’ve had so many problems with this in the past that our last position description started out:

      “Please read all application directions and follow the directions exactly as written. We will not consider any applications that are not submitted as outlined in Section [number].”

      I got some really snotty emails and the same amount of bad applications, but out of the ones who followed directions, we got the perfect match! The reason we’re so anal about the application process is we’re working with picky fussy clients who demand work be submitted in the exact way they specify. If you won’t do it on the application, I have to double check every time you submit the final draft to a client and, nope!

      And in my defense, I acknowledge every singe application we receive, even if it’s not submitted correctly. I understand the frustration of applying and never hearing back so at least this way folks know we got their stuff.

    6. AnonAsAlways*

      Perhaps I’m being cynical, but I’ve wondered what percentage of applications come from folks on unemployment who are just trying to hit the required weekly number of job responses to keep their benefits. Not assuming those folks aren’t looking for legitimate work, but sometimes, surely, a teapot designer only finds limited viable positions. For example, better to apply for a job in teapot sales they don’t really want and so intentionally flub it so they can show they are actively looking and keep their benefits. Just a thought.

      1. Anx*

        I think is pretty likely. My local newspaper, for a city of over 80,000, sometimes has 3 or fewer jobs posted in their help wanted section. Entire CL job categories can be completely blank.

        This does have a drawback, though. What if you make a poor impression on an employer because they have a posting you have no interest in. You phone in an application, making it very easy to weed you out, so that they don’t waste too much time reviewing your application. You can pay your rent, buy food, and stay alive a little bit longer while you keep looking. Then the same company expands and starts seeking employees with your skill set. Then you might have shot yourself in the foot if they remember your application.

  97. Anx*

    I was recently offered a position working for the college I attend. I was encouraged to apply for a position by my advisor and I delivered an resume/cover letter to their office (they had already left a job fair I went to specifically to find out more about their openings). I received a call back quickly (several missed calls). My interview went well and I was offered a job immediately. I then submitted my official application during a paperwork meeting and signed off my W4s, etc.

    Now, during my interview I alluded to academic struggles in the past. I didn’t want to dwell on the negative so I followed the interviewers lead in focusing on my skills and moving the conversation forward. I told HR that I few issues with their application and trying to explain my full history in the boxes allotted, and stressed that I didn’t mean to bury anything but there were only so many slots. I had decided to included my low GPA on that form.

    After accepting the position, I looked on their website to see if there was any employee information. I saw a job ad for my position (they will be hiring several) and found that there was a minimum GPA requirement. Mine falls well below it. Even in my major. Since graduation I have taken 2 classes I knew I would struggle with just to challenge myself and got Cs. The rest of my classes are all As and a few Bs. I had a 97 in a non-credit post-bacc certificate program (the top grade). I have a 4.0 in my current program and anticipate getting all As this semester. Depending on how you calculate grades, I may be able to make the cut-off.

    Now I feel like a fraud. Do I need to call HR? Or should I assume they did their due diligence? Ethics aside, I’m wondering if I should decline the position and keep looking now instead of having to look for anew job in a few weeks. I worry that if I’m let go over my GPA down the line that I’ll be stuck having to include this job on my online applications to other positions. My last job only lasted a few days (I didn’t make the cut in a food service job) and the one before that I a few months. Before my long unemployment gap I held jobs steadily but I’m afraid of looking flighty or worse. I’m thinking a longer gaps is better than another short stint.

    For context, I’ve also applied to another job that I was referred to, although I’m not confident that the schedule will work

      1. CTO*

        Agreed. You were honest in telling them that you didn’t meet the requirement, and they hired you anyway. The GPA requirement could easily be flexible (even if they don’t say it is) just as nearly every other hiring requirement is. I don’t think you have any reason to worry.

        However, it’s clear that you are really nervous about this being “found out” later and that you’ll get fired over it. If that’s really going to hang over your head, just give HR a quick call/email to double-check. Say, “I am really excited to start this position, but now that the the official job posting is up I see that my GPA might not meet the requirements. I know this came up during the interview but I just wanted to make sure that we were both 100%aware of this and that it won’t cause any issues.”

    2. AnonyMouse*

      You said you were open with them about your academic struggles and they still chose you, so I’m sure it’s fine. For some context, when I was a student, I worked in an office that regularly selected new student workers. Our application forms included an “is your GPA above X.X” yes or no box. I asked the director about it once because I was helping out with the paperwork, and she said it generally didn’t factor into the process, but if a candidate checked no, she wanted to be able to have a conversation with them about whether they felt overwhelmed by their academic responsibilities, and if they could take on the number of hours we needed. She just wanted to make sure we weren’t stressing anyone out more if they were already struggling. It could be something like this, in which case, I’m sure they got the information they needed from your forms and interview.

  98. Nethwen*

    For jobs where it is expected to show professional involvement on the resume (e.g. academia), is it appropriate to include an article accepted for publication which then was not published because the editor did not receive enough for his series? If so, how would it be listed to show the article was accepted, but not yet published?

    1. Anonsie*

      It’s not unusual to see a “manuscripts submitted” or “in review” section on CVs, is it? Many of the more prolific folks I work with have to have these, since at any given time they have 5-10 papers in process somewhere or another.

  99. Student*

    I am currently a temp in a 3-year-only position, and my employer has just opened up a position for me to potentially become permanent staff. I’m excited.

    However, there is a catch. They aren’t just promoting me to permanent staff. They’re opening up a job and posting it. I’m not too worried about external competition. However, at least 2 other temps that I work with are also going for this job, and have been encouraged to apply as well. It is unclear how many jobs are available, but it’s most likely 1 or 2.

    So now, I’m in competition for my livelihood with two people that I really like and respect. I won’t get another chance at a job given our 3-year time limit. They both might, as they have more time left on the clock than I (but they are unlikely to stick around that long). In addition, I have to work with these two daily. If more than one of us gets hired, I will work with them daily for the foreseeable future.

    I am trying really hard to not let the I’m-competing-with-you-for-my-career thing impact my work with these colleagues. It’s fraying my nerves and frequently on my mind. So far, we’ve all remained quite civil, but they’re clearly trying to promote themselves as job candidates while we wait for the job interviews (and so am I). Any advice for putting this out of my mind?

    1. AnonyMouse*

      It’s really hard, and I don’t have any advice that’s likely to be news to you. I’m sure you’re already considering a lot of the basics, but one thing that I’ve found helpful when I’m stressing about any application situation is to follow some advice Alison gives regularly – mentally move on! Since you’re applying for a permanent position where you work right now, definitely don’t slack off at work or stop trying to present yourself as a good candidate, but start looking at/applying to other jobs as if the permanent role at your current company didn’t exist. I find that when I start getting excited about other job postings, it takes a lot of pressure off of waiting on any applications I’ve already submitted. Hopefully the other temps can do the same, and the overall atmosphere won’t be too tense!

    2. Red*

      I hated going through this with my current job. I actually lost out (!), but they retained me as a temp and hired me to the position later. For me, I decided getting hired or not did not reflect on my worth as a person, nor did it anyone else’s, and that competing for the position meant someone wouldn’t get it – – just as would happen with any other position I would apply to. Trying to get in, as a result, did not mean I did not like, respect, and well-wish my co-temp. It just meant that I wanted a secure job with benefits, and she did too!

    3. Mister Pickle*

      No, no advice for putting it out of your mind. But – and I hate to be a downer, and I hope this doesn’t sound all bitter and stuff – watch your back. It truly pains me to admit this, but I’ve been stabbed in the back by co-workers in a competitive situation on a number of occasions, and frankly it’s usually my fault: I tend towards the mind-set of “we’re all in this together” and – an actual example from a few months ago: I had to present some work to upper mgmt. My competitor needed to present their work to upper mgmt, too – so I thought I’d be a nice person and efficient and we’d *both* present to upper mgmt at the same meeting. I’m sure you can see where this is going: my competitor took every opportunity to dis my work and promote theirs over mine. It’s not like it destroyed my career, but it was unpleasant to watch this person (who I thought was something of a friend) try to screw me.

      I’m certainly not saying you should try to screw over your competition. Just: until this is over, be careful just how friendly you are with them.

  100. Cruciatus*

    Are there any non-librarian library people out there who’ve made the switch to other jobs? I have experience working in a public library and a small med school library (both in non-librarian functions). I’m currently working as an AA. I don’t really know what I want to do with my career, but I’ve enjoyed things from all of the positions I’ve done so far. I’m looking to move on from my current position (mostly a money thing and a nothing ever changes thing) and saw a nearby library job for a salary that is what I’m hoping to make at my next job and I’ve done most of the things required (and enjoyed it). But I’m worried about getting “stuck” in a library job. I’m sure I would enjoy the job itself, but one day, years from now, if I wanted to get out (perhaps back into AA again) would it be difficult? I just want to know the possibility to switch out exists because I really hadn’t thought about going back into a library position (because, besides librarian, I didn’t think there was much else for me to cover)–but this one called to me a bit.

    1. Nethwen*

      If you look at the I Need a Library Job (inalj.com) site, there is an article about how someone is no longer a librarian and works at a different job by choice. I do not think it answers your exact questions, but might offer some insight.

  101. Anon333*

    Are there any resources for what to write in a negative performance appraisal? It’s a narrative form and none of the information will be a surprise. The employee has a history of defensiveness in prior reviews (including a couple references to being a screw-up) so I want to be professional but very clear. I’ve been actively managing her workflow for easier projects and she still isn’t “getting it” – work contains errors, is slow to turnaround, people have lost confidence in her. I don’t necessarily want to fire her per se – we need someone in the role for the immediate time being – but I do want to express that her ability to advance here is unlikely. Is that last statement in particular a reasonable one to include?

    1. Colette*

      Is “unlikely to advance” really the message you want to send, or do you want her to improve in the role she already has.

      I’m a little confused about why you’d want to keep someone who is slow and error-prone. Is this really a “anyone will do” situation?

      1. Anon333*

        It’s a highly skilled position (or it should be!), high touch with customers, and the workload is such right now that I need her contribution for at least a couple months. I suspect I’m being a bad manager here – our hope would be that she decides to transition out on her own given this feedback.

          1. Sadsack*

            Yes, hoping that she takes the hint to leave is sort of anti-managing. Why would she quit her job with nothing lined up when she has a job where she can work slowly while making mistakes without any consequences? PIP is def needed.

          2. Colette*

            Yeah, I think you need to be clear about what she needs to do to keep her job, and honest with yourself about the likelihood of that happening.

            IMO, it’s important to be:
            – accurate – possibly including examples
            – clear – what do you need from her, what is she doing well, what is she not doing
            – honest – don’t sugarcoat it to avoid her getting upset, but at the same time don’t give personal feedback (i.e. “everyone hates you”) that she can’t change

            1. Manager Anonymous*

              And this is the time to seek help from HR. If she is screwing up and she is customer facing, you are probably not aware of the whole picture. In this situation, I sat down with the HR person and the employees job description and we made a checklist of the tasks required and the expectations for those tasks- timeliness, accuracy, judgement and in terms of stakeholders, attitude. It soon became apparent that I had specific examples of her work needing improvement in all areas and HR helped me put together a PIP that would evaluate her work against measurable goals.

              And yes, no one has this kind of time. Yet, it is fair to her that you are clear in your expectations.

  102. LovingTheSouth*

    How do you defend yourself without coming across as defensive? I’ve been in the workforce for decades and hold a upper-level position at my firm, but I still find myself hesitating to defend my strategies and tactics in meetings with c-level execs because I don’t want to be thought of as defensive. I don’t want to be seen as making excuses or not taking responsibility when things go sideways, or not being able to take criticism of my projects. I think part of my sensitivity comes from being annoyed when people on my team make excuses for something not going right, and I don’t want to come across that way to my superiors. Yet, a lot time, something one person sees as an excuse is really a reason or mitigating factor that should be brought up so everyone knows what happened. And if you sit in the meeting without defending your thinking you are seen as wishy washy. So how do all of you defend your work without being accused of being defensive?

    1. Anon333*

      Can you be clear to explain your reasoning, instead of “defending your thinking”, using very neutral language – “my logic on my decision/recommendation/etc. was the following.. . . [it turns out that X was wrong/Y wasn’t incorporated into my thought process/we learned X during the process/etc.

    2. Jamie*

      So much of it is tone. If I don’t filter I tend sound defensive even when I’m truly not, so I prepare myself a little and be deliberate in coming across emotionally neutral. Annoyance with the situation can come off defensive – so I get very business like and what my mom used to call “lawyerly” when I’m just giving my assessment of the facts and how I looked at X to see where we could have done things differently, etc.

      I also use “we” when I mean you sometimes, when warranted. IOW if one part of the project pooped the bed and Jane was responsible for it and everyone in the meeting knows Jane was responsible for it saying “next time you need to zig when you should have zagged” it puts people on the defensive and makes it look ( to some) like you’re deflecting blame even when it wasn’t your blame to deflect. But if you change the you to we everyone still knows what happened, but it’s a little face saving which can keep the conversation positive.

      But the biggest thing is to keep annoyance and irritation out of your voice because others interpret that as defensive. Try to present the facts as if you’re doing it on behalf of another person’s project where you’re an observer and not extra pissed because Jane’s screw up caused you to work so many extra hours and miss your kid’s birthday dinner.

    3. GrumpyBoss*

      A lot has to do with how you present the issue. For me, I try to anticipate what questions I’ll be asked next, and incorporate that into my answer. For example, let’s say you fell behind on a project due to excuses being made on your team. Some follow up questions would be how are you addressing the issue and how will you make up time?

      “While working on the teapot project, we determined an internal process gap that slowed the project by a couple of days. We have reviewed the process and have tightened up the area of concern so this won’t happen again. We anticipate that we’ll be able to make up the missed days later in the project schedule”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I have used questions as a substitute for statements that may sound defensive.

      “It sounds like you are saying that X went badly this week because we ran out of Y. So how do we prevent this from happening again?” Then I find out how to get more Y or who to tell or what to substitute for Y.

      Approach it with an analytical mindset. What went wrong, how can we prevent similar occurrences?

      Keep in the back of your mind that the execs already know which excuses are BS and which excuses are actually reasons.

      If you get put on the spot with a “where was your head at when you decided ABC?” question- that can be tough. The one thing that I know works is as you are going through your day make sure you are making decisions that you CAN explain. If you are having difficulty explaining a particular decision talk to someone before proceeding.

      Yeah, this stuff can be like mental gymnastics.

    5. Waiting Patiently*

      Own it. Mistakes and all. This has worked the best for me when I’m annoyed. I first question myself–how could i have supported better. If I’m owning my mistakes it takes the sting of being defensive away.
      If I don’t believe I made the “mistake” then I tend to speak/think in in terms of “we” or I. What can we do better? How can I help you? My thoughts are we’re meeting not to steamroll people but because we need to solve a problem.

      Also state facts and be comfortable in silence –in essence not talk so much but listen. Thoughtful listening.

  103. Diet Coke Addict*

    While I’m complaining! I sneeze quite a bit at work. This is because our roof flooded in the spring and sprung a leak right over my desk, destroying the ceiling and a lot of the files on my desk. My boss has not repaired the ceiling so it’s a gross, shedding-popcorn-ceiling, dusty mess. Every day I wipe up plaster dust. EVERY DAY. Consequently, I sneeze–I don’t want to, or like to, but I do.

    Our new employee actually complained to the boss that my sneezing was distracting, leading my boss to ask if I had allergies, and I said no, but it was constantly dusty thanks to the ceiling plaster. His response? “Well, I guess I should get around to fixing it sooner, then. Can you try not to sneeze?”

    Well, I can try, but no promises on that one. I sneeze very quietly! I don’t “yell” my sneezes at any rate, and what’s more, whatever happened to just asking me like a normal person instead of running to the boss for a sneeze complaint?

    1. Sadsack*

      I can’t imagine asking someone to try not to sneeze as much, as a coworker or as a manager! Both sound like morons, if you ask me. Is it just plaster, or is there mold? Doesn’t sound healthy, either way.

      1. Jamie*

        I’d be worried about mold, too, but neither scenario is okay. And I think the sound of someone trying to stifle a sneeze is awful when an actual sneeze is no big deal. I hate the way my husband sneezes because it always sounds like he’s trying to stop it and it sounds …incomplete. He says it’s his weird septum but I think he does it to annoy me.

    2. Jamie*

      Uhm, what? So your body is responding appropriately to an environmental issue they have not corrected, but it’s on you to override your body’s built in defense mechanism to prevent you from inhaling particulate into your lungs.

      You should get right on that.

      Or tell them that according to wikipedia…In Ancient Greece, sneezes were believed to be prophetic signs from the gods. And they have no right to interfere with the communication between yourself and your deities.

      Seriously this is crazy and not just because it’s one of the few bodily noises that don’t annoy me. Weird fact, had a co-worker once who every time she sneezed sneezed 12 times. Lovely woman, quiet, polite…and I wouldn’t believe it either if I wasn’t there. Every time – 12. And not faked or put on in anyway – she said it was a source of embarrassment most of her and she had no idea why or how to stop it.

      1. Diet Coke Addict*

        I can try to not sneeze, but…I don’t know if this happens to everyone, but if I don’t sneeze when I have to, I get very sniffly instead–which sucks and is equally crappy for everyone involved.

        Oh hey, time for my daily plaster clean-up. I don’t know if this is better or worse than when the ceiling was leaking constantly over my desk and my boss’s solution was “Let’s wait and see if it stops by itself.”

        1. Jamie*

          Well sure, because roofs are self-healing, everyone knows that.

          I so want to come and rescue you now – may not be the perfect workplace but the ceiling is intact and you won’t have to blow out an eardrum suppressing sneezes. Which is bad for you – don’t do it.

      1. Diet Coke Addict*

        I can promise I don’t sneeze on anyone! Except one time my cat, and that was her fault for sitting on my chest in the first place.

      2. Tris Prior*

        Not in a workplace, but I used to get in trouble for sneezing and blowing my nose in school. My teachers didn’t believe I had severe allergies and thought I was just doing it to get attention or avoid focusing on work. ??? Right, like I was magically willing my body to produce that much snot, on purpose.

        My mom actually had to go to the school and explain to my teacher how allergies work and that no, she couldn’t keep me home every time I was sneezy and congested as I would be out of school for the entire fall and spring.

    4. LCL*

      If it’s really a popcorn ceiling it could very well have asbestos fibers in it, and be shedding them, and you are breathing them in. You might bring this to his attention and see what happens…

      1. Susannah*

        That’s exactly what I was going to point out. Asbestos used to be common for popcorn ceilings. Depending where you live, there may be a state or county health agency that does free testing (there was when I owned a house w/ popcorn ceilings years ago). Grab a sample and get it checked out.

    5. Mephyle*

      Sneezes are involuntary. It’s not something you can fix by trying hard.

      All you can do is deal with the stimulus. Face mask?

  104. nodumbunny*

    I think I know the answer to this question, but thought I’d ask the best dang commenters on the web: what is the etiquette/best strategy when you’ve applied for/had a first interview for Job 1 at Employer 1, are waiting to see if you’ll get a second interview and in the interim Employer 1 posts Job 2, which would also be a good fit? Apply to Job 2?

    Further background if it makes a difference. Job 1 is more senior a job than Job 2. I’ve used this as a reason to contact the hiring manager (first contact since sending TY note two weeks ago) for Job 1 (who might also be two levels above Job 2 – can’t tell) to say I am very interested still in Job 1 but saw Job 2 – no reply yet. Also, the Employer tends to post jobs for a very short period of time before closing them, so I don’t want to lose my chance. Thoughts?

    1. CTO*

      I’d go ahead and apply to Job 2 IF it’s not so far below your qualifications that it would look desperate. If you’re more on the fence, qualifications-wise, between the two, I think you should apply. You did your part by contacting the manager to reiterate that you’re still very interested in Job 1.

  105. Jen RO*

    No questions, just a yay. I’m the successor for my current team lead – he’s been laid off and he will be around until December, and he pretty much has to train me until then. For the first 4 months, he made it obvious that he did not like helping me or supporting my ideas (there are a lot of issues in the team that had not been addressed). I understand that training your replacement sucks, but it’s not my fault!

    However, since he came back from holiday a few weeks ago, he’s been amazingly supportive and helpful – he will give me all the background I need (I am new to the team and he’s been here for 9 years), he will give me suggestions, but he also lets me make decisions. I am starting to feel bad he’s leaving! I hope we can work like this for the following few months, it would make my life sooo much easier.

      1. Jen RO*

        No idea! We are speculating that relaxing helped, or maybe he talked to a friend who gave him good advice, or maybe he smoked some pot and stopped caring, or we finally talked enough for him to realize that I’m a nice girl and I didn’t steal his job. (He’s in a different country and we’ve never met face to face, which makes relating harder.)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It almost sounds like he got together with friends or family and told them how work was going. Their response was to tell him to back off. At any rate, good for him to change like that. Not everyone can do that.

  106. Fantasma*

    Longtime reader, first-time advice seeker! Earlier this week, I accepted a job offer from a competitor. I’ve been at my current job less than a year and it has been apparent almost since I started that it was a bad fit for me — passive-aggressive culture, shiny-object syndrome, highly disorganized, etc. My manager left, for which I didn’t blame her, and I was “promoted, not promoted” into doing her job, too. I am the only person doing my particular type of job for two global organizations so my leaving will be tough on the teams I support. One team (key internal customer) is fantastic and I really enjoy working with them. The other team (which I report through) is … not, and I expect at least some of them to be very upset that I’m leaving at a busy and turbulent time.

    I plan to give two weeks notice on Monday and wanted to know if anyone has advice to make the notice period go smoothly when some co-workers and people senior to me are likely to be confrontational. (My plan is to spend my time documenting everything I do, passwords, key internal contacts, upcoming deadlines and deliverables.)

    Example of what I expect: When my old manager left, a senior leader confronted her at the goodbye cake table in front of everyone to ask, “What did we do wrong? Why are you really leaving?” My manager answered very professionally but vaguely with “it was a great opportunity in a field I’ve been trying to move into,” etc. It was extremely awkward — if I’m put in that situation, is OK to keep repeating something like “it was a great opportunity I couldn’t pass up”?

    1. nodumbunny*

      That’s what I would do. They’re not owed any more response than that and wouldn’t take it well if you told them the truth. I think your ideas of documenting as much as you can is the right track. Congratulations and good luck!

      1. Fantasma*

        Thanks! I can’t wait to move on — I might be stressing unnecessarily, but history tells me probably not. Counting the days …

    2. Laufey*

      You could always say that they made you an offer you couldn’t refuse. For bonus points, mourn the loss of your beloved horse/dog/cat/goldfish, but mention that you need a much smaller hole to bury it in now, though.

  107. Anx*

    I am a Mac user who hasn’t consistently used Windows since about 2008 until about this year (just the ones on campus to print things and such). Using the one at the library doesn’t work and the Unemployment Office computers also are terrible for trying to update skills.

    I haven’t run into any problems I couldn’t figure out in a few seconds or minutes since using Windows. So I’m not too worried about Windows itself.

    Any ideas on how to try to practice with the newer Microsoft Office suites, though? The only truly modern computers I have access to don’t allow non-students to use Office software (i log in as a guest). I’m sure a licensing agreement issue.

    Secondly, how can I practice Outlook? Other applications I feel I can practice well, but does anyone have any tips for trying to learn how to integrate Outlook into your life when you don’t actually have regular access to it or work in an office?

    1. BRR*

      I had a semi-similar problem when I applied for my first job with a office for windows skills test. I used youtube videos.

    2. Judy*

      Check adult education at the library or local university. Usually there are “Get to know Word and Excel” classes, targeted to older folks.

      1. Anx*

        The university is a good suggestion. Our comm coll has a continuing ed department but their computer labs have odd hours and are really meant for people working on a career readiness certificate, which I can’t afford at the moment.

        The university’s computers tend to be updated more regularly than those at the employment office and other libraries.

        If not, this seems like an issue in our community that needs to be addressed immediately. There’s really no excuse for any of these providers of public services not to offer up-to-date while promoting ‘workforce development.’ Maybe they need concerned citizens to self-advocate to either highlight the issue or help secure funding to maintain these services. This seems like a good opportunity to get involved.

    3. Trixie*

      If you can track down a PC through a friend or your local library (versus campus), I usually recommend GCFLearnfree.org. Free and a great way to assess/improve your skills in all the topics you mention above.

  108. LucyVP*

    I need some suggestions for dealing with our lower than market-rate salaries when hiring. For those of you who work for non-profits with salary limitations, how do you find good people who are willing to stick it out? Our small org. is very well known both locally and internationally, has a great reputation in our field, and in many ways is a desirable place to work – except the salary. (We do offer fairly good benefits.)

    I recently lost a critical staff member who found an awesome job making over double what we were paying her. I am so excited for her but it really highlighted how low our salary packages are. I need to fill her position and we moved some money around so I can offer about $2 more an hour than what she was getting but it still isnt market-rate, raises will be few and far between, and I worry that the prestige of our org. will only go so far.

    Our ED has made it clear that spending more on salaries across the board is not an option so other than individual department heads moving salaries around we dont have much wiggle room.

    1. BRR*

      I would focus on making sure the work environment is top notch and would it be possible to offer generous PTO to compensate? What about work at home or flexible hours? Some people would forgo a higher salary for these things.

    3. Margot*

      I’m not sure that this will turn out to be such an issue when you start recruiting. There are lots of prestigious organisations that offer salaries much lower than people could earn in other industries, and they manage somehow. Interesting work can go a long way.

      And maybe think about things that people might value more highly than pay. Like maybe flexible working hours, the occasional ability to work from home, and job security. Just being a well-managed organisation helps a lot too. While sometimes people leave jobs because the pay is too low, what really drives people out is bad management, feeling like there’s no career progression… that kind of thing.

    4. AVP*

      Are there any phrases you can use in the online ad to signal what the pay package will look like?

      I have a couple of positions like this in my company (not a non-profit, but similar idea) and I learned the hard way that I have to list the approximate salary in the ad. Or at the very least, be clear about it in the phone interviews. It’s just so demoralizing to waste your time on a long interview process with someone who couldn’t even consider what you can pay them. I try to make it easy for the person to consider and lay it all out there so the person can make an informed decision. Better to screen out people at the beginning than at offer stage, or even worse, once they’ve started.

      Other than that, just suck it up and be aware that your salaries might be limiting candidates who can work with you, but there are enough great people out there in the world that you’ll probably find at least one who wants the job as-is.

      1. AVP*

        My worst horror story about this – my boss made me offer a very low paid entry-level job to his friend, without a real interview and no references. I made the offer while highlighting the low salary. Part of me was hoping she wouldn’t take it, because it wasn’t a living wage for someone her age where we live.

        So she does take it but is shocked when she gets her first check. I’m like, what? I was verrrry clear on what the salary was and you accepted it. She says, but you didn’t tell me there would be TAXES taken out! She was 35 years old. Apparently according to her every other job she’d had had quoted her the take-home salary, not gross. I’m still confused about this. Who does that?

          1. AVP*

            Agreed- that’s not possible, at least for someone you don’t know! I suspect that she either thought it would be off the books (we’re a real company, what?) or that she knew she couldn’t work for the salary, but thought she could get an increase this way once she was hired. It didn’t work.

        4. Anx*

          How does age affect your living wage? With so many people across the lifespan making near minimum wage, it seems like people of all ages are expected to live on that regardless of where they live.

          Wouldn’t not wanting to extend an offer to someone who you think should need more money mean you’re screening based on age?

    5. Joey*

      What is it they say about having to sacrifice either speed, cost, or quality? Sounds applicable here.

      That’s said work from home days go a long way. So does not caring about hours worked as long is the job is done.

    6. Katie the Fed*

      I’d take a lower salary for some combination of:

      Great working environment
      Good benefits
      Flexible scheduling/ability to work from home at times
      A sabbatical (seriously, I just want a 3 month leave once in a while)
      Rewarding work

      1. Trixie*

        A good friend of mine started driving a school bus which has turned into a great thing. Her training was paid for when she first started and when she moved to a new system, helped immensely. Decent enough pay, but flexible schedule, great benefits, and summers off. Nothing I ever would have thought of until she did. Lot more retirees and SAH housewives than I ever imagined, although it varies with the area/community of course.

  109. Margot*

    I am on maternity leave from work for a year (not in the US obviously!) and I am interested in learning a bit more about accounting while I have this extra time. I don’t want to actually be an accountant, but a better understanding of some of the basic concepts could be really useful for me in my job. I know there are a few online courses out there, but I have no idea how to tell a good one from a bad one, so I wondered if anyone here might have some recommendations.

    I also considered just buying an accounting textbook and reading it. Is that a better idea?

    I don’t want any sort of diploma or certificate, I just want to up-skill a bit. Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

    1. Felicia*

      I don’t know about you but here in Ontario there are many colleges that have continuing education courses that you can just randomly take , that aren’t towards a diploma or certificate – well you can put them towards one, but you can just take a random one and never do it again. Have you tried that?

    2. Jamie*

      I send everyone here to http://www.accountingcoach.com/. I’ve never taken their courses, but it’s ridiculously helpful to learn the basics of accounting just searching and browsing topics on the site.

      When new to the work world I took 2 accounting classes – managerial and cost accounting online (brick and mortar school with online classes) and that was immensely helpful. Like you I didn’t need anything but the information. (For both you needed the pre-req financial accounting which I took in college.)

      And keep in mind that unlike computer science accounting stuff is pretty standard. Sure there are some new things cropping up now and again but for the most part GAAP is GAAP and debits still go on the left was the same when I was in college in the 80’s. :)

      And I applaud this SO much! I tell everyone who will listen that there are very, very few positions where you won’t benefit from knowing the fundamentals of accounting. It’s not just for the people in finance, it’s literally the language of business. It will help you understand how the dollars flow and how decisions are made in your company. I can’t think of one office position where the basics wouldn’t be helpful.

      1. Margot*

        Thanks! I had seen that site but didn’t have a way of knowing whether it was any good. Your endorsement is helpful.

        I agree that accounting is universally helpful. I have picked up a couple of concepts just through my work, like capital vs revenue account, accruals, etc, but I know my knowledge is shallow and patchy. In my area of work (government policy) I often come across people who say they don’t understand numbers/finance as almost a point of pride, like they’re more interested in ideas and philosophies etc. It annoys the heck out of me.

      2. Anx*

        I appreciate this comment quite a bit. I love doing my taxes, loved doing budgets/actuals for college jobs, but don’t have any background in business.

        I was interested in taking an accounting course next semester but worried that it would be silly to think that Acct 101 could really help me learn something about business without any other business or accounting courses.

        1. Jamie*

          Oh my goodness – Accounting 101 will be far more helpful to you than a business class. They are fine, but more global. Accounting you learn stuff everyday you can go and apply at work.

          It’s not just for jobs where you’re actually making the entries and moving the money. It’s for everyone who has conversations with tptb and can understand how the money moves – gives you such a leg up.

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      The AAT is a good starting point for accountancy, I know you said you don’t want certification but you could check out the text books and use those to study the bits you’re interested in.

      http://aat.org.uk

  110. Jamie*

    I keep meaning to toss this out there…anyone with experience in being an ISO auditor for a registrar?

    I don’t think I would like it since I hate to travel, and new people aren’t really my thing – but there are times I think it might be something to keep in mind for the future. Skill wise I would be good at it and know what goes into the certification, etc. And new people won’t be an issue since the interaction is totally work focused and that’s where I am fine – and being able to audit and not have to stick around and help them clean their messes is appealing.

    Still leaves me with the hating travel thing, but I’m not phobic about it I just prefer to be home. But I’ve never traveled for work as a regular thing. Maybe I would love it? And even if I didn’t if the money were good enough I could deal.

    Anyway – not looking for now, but I kick it around sometimes thinking about the future and was wondering if there were any sites out there that someone could personally vouch for with somewhat accurate salary info.

    Any horrible pitfalls I should be aware of? I know they tend to be independent contractors, but the ones I know who are in good standing with their registrar have more work than they can do – so in that case the independent thing wouldn’t bother me because I wouldn’t have to drum up business on my own.

  111. unemplaylist*

    Hi folks, I’m still micro-blogging on Facebook for my “Unemplaylist: The Job Seeker’s Soundtrack” project. Today I am featuring a song suggested by AAM contributor Felicia — “Career Opportunities” by The Clash. Oh man, this is perfect if you’ve ever felt cynical about the job hunt. (And let’s face it, who hasn’t?) Hop over to Facebook and search for “Unemplaylist” to check it out. Please add your suggestions. And be sure to Like the page! Thanks a million, Felicia!

    1. SherryD*

      Nice work! By the way, your username is also the link to the FB page, if anyone wants to take that route.

      On an inspirational note, there’s Frank Sinatra’s “Pick Yourself Up.” And on an “eff you” note, I’ve always loved “Signs” by the Five Man Electrical Band, particularly the first verse:
      And the sign said ‘Long-haired freaky people need not apply.’
      So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why.
      He said, ‘You look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you’ll do.’
      So I took off my hat, I said ‘Imagine that. Huh! Me, workin’ for you!’

  112. Smilingswan*

    I hope it’s not too late . . . I always forget my question early on . . . I really need to start writing them down!

    Anyway- should a cover letter be submitted as an attachment along with the resume, or should it go in the body of the e-mail? If it is submitted as an attachment, should it be in the same document as the resume, so as to keep them together? If so, should it be page 1 of X (X being the total pages including cover letter and resume)?

    Thanks!

    1. BRR*

      Unless they ask you to do otherwise, I would submit the cover letter and resume as separate attachments. Most likely they will have to send your materials to other people so it is better to have the cover letter as a document in stead of making them create a document from the email text. Some places ask for both the resume and cover letter to be in one document, if that’s the case it doesn’t matter which comes first.

      Just write a short email saying what you’re applying for, you attached your materials, and throw in a closing sentence.

    2. SherryD*

      I always send my cover letter and resume as separate attachments, labelled Firstname-Lastname-Resume and Firstname-Lastname-Letter. Then in the body of the email I’ll write something fairly short, basically saying I’m interested in the posted position, one sentence(ish) about my qualifications, noting that my resume and cover letter are attached, and thanking them for the consideration.

  113. kf*

    I need to decide if I should look at contracting work. I work full time at a job with great benefits but will finish my schooling in December and will be changing professions. Since my schooling is in IT, there is a lot of calls for contract employment.

    When I started school internships and contract work didn’t scare me as I had a second income to pay our bills. Unfortunately he has passed away and I need to decide if I can afford an internship (I think I should either way) or working as a contractor until I get more experience. Does anyone have any good insight on this?

    1. Student*

      To be a decent contractor, you need to have the skills to do the job. Do you?

      You either need to be an expert in something, or a jack-of-all-trades that can fill many different IT needs.

      In addition to technical skills, you need to have the equipment. You likely need some software. You need to have the space to do work on your own. You need to have the drive to do the job well, independently. You need to be willing and able to market yourself. You need to keep track of the finances (including taxes). You need to be willing to spell out your terms, establish a (written) agreement before starting work, and push back when your clients try to test your boundaries or ask for things that aren’t realistic.

      Frankly, I don’t recommend contracting to someone just finishing a degree who doesn’t have real-world experience in IT. I can’t tell whether you have that experience or not from your question. Spend 1-2 years in a more established job first, so that you get an idea of what tools are used, what industry norms are, what people expect, and what can actually be delivered. Be honest about whether you meet the other criteria that I’ve suggested. If you feel confident that you do, go for it! It’s a lucrative field. It’s also a minefield of unrealistic customer expectations, wildly varying pay for different specific technical skills, scams, and long work hours.

      Last thing. In IT, an internship should ALWAYS be a paid internship. Don’t take any internship that isn’t paid at least ~20k a year, probably much better (50k is within reason, especially in tech hubs; I’ve heard up towards 75k for very talented friends). Things are different in STEM fields – they use the term internship for entry-level temporary jobs. The only exception is the video game industry (where you are getting illegally scammed if you are working as an unpaid intern doing game programming work, but it’s still very common practice). Unpaid internships have very strict laws (but widely flouted), and you can’t reasonably pretend to abide by those laws even in very simple STEM work.

  114. Incognito Kitty*

    Yeah it’s me – just hiding from SEO. :)

    So this is a touchy subject, but it’s been bothering me the last few days. Had a conversation with someone older – mid 60’s – who was talking about some people we both know being in their early 50s and how even though they are so young (to him) they are stuck in their jobs because even if they wanted to move on it’s impossible after 50. You just have to suck it up and ride it out.

    I mentioned how old I am and he got all apologetic and said he thought I was quite a bit younger than I am (which is not a brag – doesn’t mean I look good, means I have a round face and big eyes which all humans subconciously skew as younger) and he wouldn’t have said it if he knew I was in my 40s. But now that it’s out there he said I should be aware of it because I’m only a few years from being trapped, if I’m not already, since it can be earlier for women.

    He wasn’t trying to be mean and he wasn’t condoning it, just saying it sucks when people with a couple of decades left to give lose their market. This is someone who has been around the block professionally in my industry and I generally weight his opinion pretty heavily in things.

    Obviously there are no absolutes, and we all know there is a point where it becomes an issue – but I guess I never considered it being that dire or that I may well be functionally out of options due to being in my not very early 40s anymore. I can’t afford not to work, and that won’t change. Maybe because I entered the work force later in life (mid-late 30s) or because I don’t really have hang ups about getting older I just didn’t see myself as there yet?

    Just makes me wonder if I’ve been kidding myself even thinking I’m here by choice and that I have options, when it may just me that this is the best I’ll ever do. (not that it’s bad – but it’s utopia where options aren’t interesting to consider sometimes.)

    1. I'll Hide Too*

      Hiring discrimination 50+ brutal. I think it is worse in practice than it is portrayed generally because no one wants to tell an out of work 55 year old how hard it might be to ever find another job in their field.

      The exceptions I have seen is where wisdom and experience has a high value: example Director of HR, Director of Finance.

      Fortunately, I’ve never wanted to work anywhere else (I started her at 26), but I believe that the ship of multi other options sailed a few years ago for me.

      If I was out of work, I’d find it. I have broad skill sets and a zillion contacts but, not the multi other options available at 40.

    2. Ingbar*

      I worry about this too. My SO’s company is relocating and he’s very torn about whether to go with them or not–doesn’t particularly want to be in the new location, but he just turned 50 and is terrified that he’ll never find another even roughly equivalent job. (Of course, they made the announcement some time ago and he’s just now getting around to even beginning to look for possible alternatives, but that’s a separate story…)

      1. I'll Hide Too*

        See, I don’t want to tell you that your SO should grab onto that job and relocate to where he doesn’t want to live because… I don’t want to tell you that. I want to encourage everybody that with persistence, they can get what is right for them.

        Never more important to not leave a job without another one (that you have good reason to believe will work out), than over 50. How about that?

        1. Ingbar*

          Yes. I just wish, if he really doesn’t want to go, he would be a teeny bit more persistent about the searching. And that his current company were giving more guarantees that they won’t move people and lay them off a year later. (Not to mention that if he goes, I have three mediocre choices: break up, do a very long-distance thing, or try to do a very long-distance job search, when I’m no spring chicken myself…)

          1. I'll Hide Too*

            Isn’t it great when every options sucks? I’m sorry.

            Well he can’t leave this job without finding another. If he’s not going to put the work into that, then inertia will carry the day.

            Meanwhile, if being laid off is a possibility, every year older doesn’t make finding a new job easier. But what are you going to do? You can’t make him. He’s got complete control over what happens next.

            Sorry.

      2. Tmarie*

        I lost my job of 22 years when I was 49. I focused on finding a state government job at a significantly lower level with the thought of moving up. What I didn’t count on was how different state accounting is from private accounting, and based on “not a good fit” reasons I found myself unemployed again at 50. I’ve been out of work 10 months now, and am afraid that age bias is preventing me from finding new work.

        I apply to Senior Accountant jobs, and it’s an abyss. I’m in a rural place where my level of jobs are so few and far between, even willing to drive 60 miles each way doesn’t increase prospects very much. It’s disheartening. But I do know I’m good at accounting, so I keep searching, and in the meantime enjoy my “semi-retired” status.

      3. Just Visiting*

        Do not relocate to a place you don’t want to live in for a job.
        Repeat: DO NOT relocate to a place you don’t want to live in for a FSCKING JOB.

        Being out of work is better than living in a place you (or he) hates. Every day will remind you that you gave up your world for a corporation. I’d rather live in a box eating canned cat food in a place I love than in a mansion in a place I despise. I say this from experience. No JOB is worth giving up your HOME. Everything worked out okay for us (because we got out of the terrible place, although it had to be achieved by quitting without a backup), but seriously, DON’T DO IT, for the love of God.

    3. Mister Pickle*

      I hear you; I’m 54yo. And I wonder how much longer I’ll be with the company I’ve worked for for 30+ years. I tend to look at it as a good news / bad news proposition: the Bad News is that I got laid off. The Good News is that I can start a new career, possibly my own business startup. The money probably wouldn’t be as good, but I’ve been reasonably good about savings, so I don’t think I’ll starve.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Is this his opinion or his attitude? (don’t answer, just mull.)
      I understand you respect this guy and I do not wish to detract from that. Certainly, the 50 somethings have a tougher time getting a new job- that is nothing to ignore.

      However, YMMV. I think that some of life is whatever you think. So if you think you are defeated then you probably are. If he thinks he cannot get a job easily that will only add to his concerns.

      I have read enough of your stuff here, that I know you are on top of your game. And your work ethic is such that you will always be on top of your game for as long as you choose to work. Powerful stuff, don’t skate by that.

      Another point to ponder is that baby boomers are not retiring. Society will change its collective mindset because of this. As time goes by 50 will not be that old anymore.

      And lastly, this gentleman may not be a good resource for you to lean on in regards to issues about aging in the work place. He maybe excellent about a lot of stuff. But on this one point, he is not going to be able to show you how to navigate successfully because his own doubts/worries get in the way.

      The man who comes to repair my computer is 81 this year. He chooses to work. He has government contracts. A prof in college was 73 and taking care of her elderly mother! She was one of my best profs. My current boss is past retirement age. She blows me away with the stuff she comes up with. These are the type of people to watch.

      I am working at two part time jobs now, that I never dreamed I would ever do. It’s totally unrelated to any other work I have done. Not a huge career move for me, but definitely way interesting.

      Last thought. We all work by choice. Look at the news, look at the advice columns, they are full of stories of people saying “I don’t wanna work.” So they don’t work.

      Keep this attitude forever: “I am here by choice and I do have options.” Don’t let anyone take that away from you.

    5. AB Normal*

      “Just makes me wonder if I’ve been kidding myself even thinking I’m here by choice and that I have options, when it may just me that this is the best I’ll ever do. (not that it’s bad – but it’s utopia where options aren’t interesting to consider sometimes.)”

      Incognito Kitty, knowing your profile, I can definitely assure you YOU ARE NOT in this situation, no matter what other people say about their own experience. I’m approaching 50, my husband just turned 50, and you know what? We both are constantly bombarded with headhunters asking if we wouldn’t be interested in an open position they have. We are also foreigners working in the U.S. earning 6-figures each. We both love our jobs but know that if something happened we could get another one in the blink of an eye. I’m a woman working on IT — normally during my work day I’m in meetings of 12 or more people in which I’m the only woman. I’m not even super specialized; I just happened to keep accumulating valuable skills that lots of company need, and take time and effort to develop. If you keep your knowledge relevant (i.e., don’t get comfortable using a technology and refuse to learn about new stuff before it gets replaced), I can promise that you’ll have plenty of choice if you decided to change jobs.

      I work for a young, successful mid-size company, and see a full spectrum of very young (early 20s) and much older (late 50s) people being hired here every day. The problem I see with age is when it’s combined with lack of skills (i.e., if you only know the basics of Excel, the company will likely prefer to hire someone who is just starting — and probably is willing to earn less — rather than someone nearing retirement). But I haven’t seen anyone in my circle over 50 with demonstrated accumulation of relevant skills and accomplishments have any trouble finding new exciting jobs.

      1. I'll Hide Too*

        If we are speaking specifically about the kitty woman, I agree with you, although I still think it’s better to make a move before 50 than after, if one wants to make a move. I’ve just seen too much.

        Round about 48 I said, is this it? If you’re ever going to jump, now is the time.

        I am, arguably, pretty valuable in my industry. I have a million friends and contacts, a stellar reputation, and am on the cutting edge of how business is done in 2014. I’m also compensated very well. I could get “a” job tomorrow, but getting a job on the level of the one I have now, I’d have to move to a CEO-of-smaller-sized-company position. There just aren’t that many spots and do they pick the 53 year old woman for the spot that does open up.

        People whose years of experience are both highly portable and highly valuable like, director of finance, director of hr, kitty woman’s tech/qc leadership, I agree with you, are likely to be movable for many years.

        I absolutely believe age boxes quite a few of us off . Most of us are funneled one way or another. The 50+ who don’t keep up, as you referenced in your post, can be very screwed.

        My back up plan, btw, is technology consulting for the teapot industry. I always have a back up plan, and the one at this stage of my life is throwing a shingle up. I believe I could replicate my income that way.

    6. Windchime*

      A couple of years ago, I had a coworker, “Sam”, tell me that “people can’t learn anything over the age of about 45.” I was offended because I am more than a couple years over 45 and was at the time. He said, “What about [brilliant coworker in his early 50’s], do you think he can learn anything?” I was like, “Uh, yes, because he is brilliant and keeps his skills fresh.”

      Fast forward a couple of years and Sam has left this job. It was obvious that he wasn’t able to adapt his marginal skills to our new team’s tasks and he left before he could be fired. It dawned on me that Sam wasn’t talking about me or Brilliant Guy not being able to learn anything new; he was talking about himself.

      People who are intellectually curious and work hard at keeping up their skills have a better shot at remaining employed than those like Sam who just keep showing up and hoping that their current position lasts forever. I’m not saying that age discrimination doesn’t exist; enough people have experienced it for me to know that it’s a thing. But I don’t think that we are completely victims of our ages–if we keep up with current knowledge and skills, our chances are better of remaining relevant. Like Incognito Kitty, I am also in IT and perhaps I’m lucky in that respect.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Excellent point. A wise person told me once that if someone says something that seems to be about you but it makes no sense, what may be happening is that they are talking about themselves.
        Sadly, this may mean kitty’s friend/mentor may be in his final act for the workplace scene. But it could also be that someone he admires is having a rough go of it and mentor feels badly for this person.

        For a positive take-away I think it’s always a good idea to have a plan for the future. And this kind of serves as a reminder.

      2. I'll Hide Too*

        I agree completely. I don’t think we are victims of our ages any more than a woman trying to break into an all male field is victim of her gender (bought the tee shirt) or a person of color trying to break into an all white field is a victim of race. Age issues are *real* though, and we don’t talk about it much I think because it is going to happen to literally every one of us (barring the worse alternative), so nobody wants to think about it too hard.

        One of the things that happens around 50 is that you look down the road and figure you have X years left to have enough money for when you are old and Y years left to enjoy your life and your family. People are probably more risk averse during this stage of life, although I’d need a good study to back up my claim there before I state it as fact. What I believe is: our age group craves stability. What I’ve seen happen when that stability is broken (specifically during the economic collapse) is ugly.

        Our industry was hard hit during the collapse. The body count, day after day, as companies were struggling survive, day after *day*, the body count was people 50+. These people were my friends, folks whom I’d worked with for 20 years.

        I set up my own mini one woman employment agency. Friends would email or call in and I’d start working the phones, trying to find new spots for them to land. (I managed to place a couple! :) ) It. Was. Awful. This went on for more than a year and finally stopped somewhere in 2010.

        Most of the people didn’t land. The best, the brightest and the sharpest DID land, and that’s important. They did land and they did progress and they are doing fine. The rest trailed off. Part time income, spouse with a good job, early retirement, they were done.

        These aren’t all my stories. I also have stories about what happened when I made a concerted effort to hire 50+ (did not end well, pretty much broke my heart). I have more stories about people who ARE 50+ who won’t hire people over 40, unless it is for a senior position like the one they have.

        My point is: this shit is real.

  115. Ellie*

    I work as a freelance writer for a local newspaper. They have an unusual system for paying freelancers — per column inch, which I haven’t encountered before in any of the newspapers I have worked for. After the newspaper is printed, they are supposed to mail me the newspaper, I am supposed to take out a tape measure and measure all of my articles, write up my invoice, and send it to them. This wouldn’t be so bad except I don’t receive the newspapers. I’m not sure why, and they aren’t sure why, but they have this automated mailing list and I’m just not getting the newspapers. Which means I can’t send an invoice. I haven’t received last months newspapers yet. And I keep emailing my editor, asking “Hey, where’s my newspaper?!” and I don’t want to be the annoying person who only ever contacts her boss when there’s an issue. So I’m not sure whether to keep addressing it to my boss or give it up. It’s a great job; just wish there was a better way to get paid.

    1. Mephyle*

      Sounds like they have found a great system for not paying their freelance writers! Kudos to them.

      I think it’s time to find a new way to manage this. Can you get access to it in the public library? Subscribe to the paper and receive it as a paying customer? Or can you use past columns to calculate a words-to-column-inches conversion factor so that you don’t have to have access to the physical paper any more?

      1. Anonsie*

        Sounds like they have found a great system for not paying their freelance writers! Kudos to them.

        That was my thought as well.

    2. Mephyle*

      Also, I may be imagining this, but I vaguely remember that the column inch used to be a common standard in the pre-digital age when it would have easier and faster to get out the ruler and measure than to manually count words – since manual was the only way to obtain a word count.

    3. Student*

      Be louder and more insistent about demanding a copy. You need to get paid for your work.

      You could ask your boss what their formatting is (font size and column width). Put your text in that format, print it out, and measure it for your invoice.

      Find a location where the local paper is sold. Carry a ruler in your pocket. Browse through the paper for your articles, measure them, and put the paper back. Places with lobbies or waiting rooms are an alternative option. The local library or local emergency room comes to mind.

      If the store won’t let you pick up the paper that long (some will, some won’t), locate a place where people read papers while waiting for stuff. Maybe a bus station or a train station, maybe at the coffee shop. Go there during a busy time. Look for people reading your paper. When they throw it out, fish it out of the trash and measure your articles. Don’t like trash? Flirt with a guy who looks like he’s finishing up the paper, or not using the sections where your work is, and ask if you can take a quick look at it – be polite, friendly, quick, and charming.

      See if one of your friends or relatives subscribes to it. Ask if they’ll give you the used ones,

      Find a business that subscribes and cycles them regularly. Ask them to sell you the out-of-date ones at a discount. Make the request as easy for them as possible and pay them reliably.

  116. Irene*

    How weird is it for a current college student to put high school experiences (unpaid internships, volunteering, club involvement) on a resume? I was attending a 4 year college, but then I fell ill, and came back home to recover before even finishing my first year. By the next school year, I started to feel a little better and began taking a few transferable courses at at the community college. Now that I’m technically a junior, I feel well enough to get a job. I’ve had some offers but I’d most ideally like to work as a marketing intern. I’d like to think I had some significant experiences in high school, especially in marketing (that go beyond making flyers), and since I started attending college I haven’t really gotten that involved with the clubs on campus because I was more focused on my health. I also held a job at a restaurant for about a month, but I had to resign because I was starting to get too sick to work (so I haven’t been putting this on my resume). Of course I plan on getting involved on campus or do some volunteering now that I’m feeling better, but I just feel pressured to at least try applying because I’ve kept seeing peers get internships relevant to their majors for the past two years.

    And should I be putting my GPA at the 4 year university (in addition to my current college) to show that I didn’t get kicked out due to poor grades? I’m not discussing my illness in my cover letter so I’m not completely sure what employers are thinking when they see someone going from a 4-year university to a community college as opposed to just sticking to one. Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. CoffeeLover*

      I think for your first internship while still attending college, it’s fine. Especially if you have nothing else to put on there. As for the GPA, I would leave it off unless it’s impressive (like a 3.7/4.0). If they’re curious about the switch, they will ask in the interview and you can explain. I don’t think they would automatically assume it was due to poor grades. People switch all the time for all kinds of reasons including being closer to family, a better program (in my city the college has a better nursing program than the uni), a career change, etc.

  117. Hooptie*

    I had a lovely experience today. I went to bat for my employee and was able to get a title change and a labor grade increase for her! This is especially satisfying because this particular person had a lot of difficulty adjusting to our culture when she started here, and it took tons of coaching on my part and tons of hard work on her part to get to this point. It was so satisfying to be able to do this, and mentoring situations like this make all of the hard work so worthwhile. Just wanted to share.

  118. Sunshine on the water*

    Does anyone here use OneNote? What kind of things do you use it for? And do you like it? I just started using it and it seems to have a lot of features but I’m not sure how best to utilize it. I usually do handwritten notes. And unfortunately we use Lotus Notes and not Outlook.

    1. Windchime*

      I hope you see this, as I’m very late. I use and LOVE OneNote. I’m a SQL programmer and I do lots of data moving from one environment to another. I use OneNote to keep track of my projects and to make checklists. I also use it to create documentation (including screen shots, which are super easy to do with OneNote) and then I save it off in Word or PDF. I hate the way Word handles bullets but OneNote is great at it.

      On a previous team, we used it extensively. We had it set up on a shared drive and then we could all edit the notes, and everyone on the team would immediately see the updates (without having to hit a refresh button). For instance: We would have user sessions where the users would test-drive our software changes. One person would do all the documenting of the issues in OneNote. Once we went back to the office, we would all open the notes and then work our way down the list. I could see immediately if a coworker had completed an item because when they crossed it off I could see it.

      I love, love, love OneNote.

  119. RB*

    What are people’s thoughts on bringing your own water to interviews? I had a second interview today, and as I did with the first, I picked up a bottle of water at a gas station on my way. My throat gets dry and scratchy easily, and in past interviews I haven’t always been offered water or was only given a small Dixie cup of water that wasn’t enough. A friend said she thought it would seem weird, but I’ve never gotten any negative feedback from an interviewer about it. To me it shows a bit of preparation and planning. What do you guys think?

    By the way, the interview went well, and I’m hoping for good news next week!

    1. AB Normal*

      RB, the only problem I can see with bringing your on water is if it comes in non-reusable bottles. This is because in my job there are two types of people: the ones that drink from disposable bottles, and the ones that carry their reusable bottles everywhere, even to restaurants, and look disapprovingly at the other half.

      I’m in the reusable bottle camp myself due to the negative impact that bottled water brings to the environment, but would definitely not judge a candidate bringing bottled water to an interview. However, I can see some of my colleagues frowning upon a candidate for this reason. Just to be on the safe side, in your place I’d bring a reusable bottle, so you don’t have to deal with a scratchy throat in case you aren’t offered a drink. Of course, a weird interviewer could always object to it too*, but at least in my workplace a reusable bottle would be considered a positive or neutral behavior.

      * And to be extra safe, I’d use a transparent reusable bottle so a weird interviewer doesn’t start to wonder what type of drink I’m having :-).

      1. BRR*

        In a weird way I second all of this. I was interviewing people this week. One plopped a bottle of water from her purse and I thought nothing of it. But I can see some people judging for not using a reusable bottle. I also agree with using a transparent one. For some reason, I find it weird when candidates bring even their own coffee. I don’t know why.

        1. AB Normal*

          Yeah, BRR — I don’t know why but feel the same way: water would be fine with me, but not coffee or another beverage. Perhaps it’s because it would give the impression that the person either can’t live without coffee even for a couple of hours, or is taking a too informal approach to the interview by walking to it with a cup in one’s hands.

      2. RB*

        I guess I didn’t think about the reusable bottle angle. I generally prefer reusable bottles, especially when I’m at the office, but don’t have a transparent one. I’ll invest in one for future interviews. Thanks!

    2. BB*

      Bringing water is fine. I would prefer bottled so that there is less of a chance for it to spill.

      Plus, it’s summer. We need to stay hydrated.

    3. fposte*

      I’d keep your antennae out for one thing–drinking directly from the bottle is a little crass in old-school etiquette. If you’re at a startup where nobody’s over thirty, it’s not likely to matter, but if you’re interviewing for a clerkship with a sixty-something judge, I’d drink out of a cup/glass or not at all.

    4. Anx*

      I have been on several interviews where I had really hoped to have a glass of water by my side. Of course, even if I actually had a glass of water, I would probably be too nervous or self-conscious to actually take a drink.

      If I did bring water, I would:
      -Use a reuseable bottle. If you finish a plastic water bottle, you’re stuck with essentially garbage on the table. Which is totally normal but for me I’d feel weird about it. Plus, I can see myself leaving it behind totally unintentionally. With a plastic bottle, it may look like you were careless or expect others to clean up after you. I think leaving a reusable bottle behind suggests it’s not something you do frequently and a simple mistake.
      -Make sure I could comfortably carry my bag or other materials along with the water and still have a hand free to shake.
      -Sip water but not chug or take big gulps.
      -Use the most neutral, streamlined looking bottle/tumblr I have.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      I ALWAYS bring a water bottle, ever since I got a very dry throat at an interview once and they actually had to stop and get me some water because I could not stop coughing (allergies). It was embarrassing as hell, and I ended up not doing very well. So my reusable bottle goes everywhere with me. No exceptions.

  120. Just anon for this*

    I have recently been promoted to managing 2 people in my department. One position is currently filled by someone at a distance, and the other is open. After interviewing candidates for the open position, it’s clear that two of them would be amazing in the position, and have great complimentary skills. Being able to hire both of them would make a huge difference in the effectiveness of our department.

    The distance employee I inherited is fine, but not a rockstar like I *think* these other two are. The distance employee also has a flexible schedule that means the rest of the team often has to pick up day to day problems. Having two people in house would be much, much better.

    Would I be a total asshole for recommending we let the distance employee go so we can hire the other two? Our HR policies state that if a firing doesn’t have a cause we have to give 90 days, which seems fair enough. Other than that I can’t find any policies that would prevent it.

    I’m also unsure how such a move would affect me, since I tend to be a guilt ridden mess over the smallest thing. But I don’t want to let my guilt get in the way of making my department the very best it can be.

    1. Just anon for this*

      Hmm, anon doesn’t work too well when my gravetar pic shows up. I guess at least it’s not googleable?

      1. Nicolette*

        Well, why was the distance employee hired in the first place? For what purpose? Is there still a need?

        Personally I wouldn’t recommend firing someone off just because you hire new ones. But you mentioned that he/she isn’t a rockstar – will there be room for improvements?

        Also, any possibility to assign other roles or shift him/her to other departments?

        1. Nicolette*

          Also, keep in mind that you’ve only interviewed the candidate. You’ve not really seen them working yet. Perhaps it’s too quick a judgement to say they are rock stars. And they need to be trained to know more about the company?

        2. Anonymous for this*

          We have two similar positions and this person was hired to fill one of them. We always need these two positions (and in fact could use more). I suppose there is room for improvement, but part of the problem is their flexibility- they are just not available all the time. It is my understanding that the flexibility is crucial to them being able to hold the position. I was not involved in this person’ s hiring so I can’t really speak to that. I doubt they could be shifted since my org doesn’t generally do distance working (I am guessing they didn’t have enough applicants when they hired for this position?)

          When I say rock star, I mean the people have proven records in our field specifically. It’s not just based on the interviews, but on accomplishments and references.

          1. Nicolette*

            Yes, I know there may be good references and achievements but at the end of the day, able to “fit” in is actually something to be shown only over time.

            I understand about these flexible workers. I have one in my office, alas in another department. She only comes in in the morning and so it’s really hard to get anything done or share the workload if one is doing a collaboration with her. Maybe you could find out the reason for hiring the distance employees and make a decision from them. Talk to him/her about your concern and if there could be any compromise.

            In my honest opinion, I think people should be let go if they aren’t doing their jobs well or can’t fit in. Of course, that’s way too impractical.

    2. CLT*

      You’ve just been promoted, and one of the first things you want to do is let someone go without cause. This is not a good idea. Being a manager is about way more than just bottom-line productivity. Your team has to trust you, and when you let someone go without cause and without giving them feedback that might help them improve, you have shown your team that their jobs are not safe. I have had to let people go in the past for cause following PIPs and all manner of encouragement, and even that causes a lot of insecurity amongst remaining staff. You should really try managing this person before you write her off.

    3. Ted*

      You know the work of distance employee, but not the interviewees.

      I’d look in the mirror and ask if there isn’t something else going on, like jealousy over flex schedule.

      Also, you are new to managing- firing without cause on a bet new hires will be rockstars is naive.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I don’t shy away from letting people go who no longer meet the needs of a position (because either they have changed or the position has changed), but, I don’t think that’s what you’ve got here.

      What I hear is that A is reasonably solid performer. She works remotely, which causes some issues. You’ve interviewed B and C and both B and C seem like they would be great. So you wonder if you can swap out A for B or C.

      For performance reasons, I think that’s a bad idea. Reasonably solid performers do not grow on trees. You have the bird in the hand of someone whose work you know to be good, and over there in the bush is someone who you think might be better. Building on what is already good, A, to be better, that’s good management.

      Now, for location/logistics, it is not unreasonable for you as a manager to eventually come to the conclusion that you no longer want this particular job done remotely, regardless of A’s performance. To do this right, though, you need to put your shoulder to the wheel and exhaust other possibilities.

      I’d start with the flexible schedule. Think through how the hours that A works are creating a problem/impacting productivity/not leading to optimal result. What would you change? In many environments or specific jobs, working remotely can be just as effective as working side by side, so perhaps the remote has nothing to do with the shortcomings but the schedule does.

      (As crazy at it sounds, I recently made a dramatic improvement in a problem area by shifting one person’s schedule just 1 hour later everyday. That’s all it took to have the right people available at the right time to smooth this process out, although it took a fair amount of analysis to come up with that solution.)

      I don’t know if the step after that is to go to your boss and say, hey, I’m going to ask A to adjust her schedule to this what do you think, or if you go right to A.

      Point is, try to work through the things you think are hindrances to success and then eventually, if they can’t be worked through, it’s okay to say a position that used to be remote can no longer be remote. Then you give the employee the option of continuing her job not remote. And then if that doesn’t work out, *then* you interview.

      Whew. That’s exhausting. :)

    5. Just anon for this*

      I don’t know if the people who responded will see this, but I wanted to say thanks for the responses. I think you’re right that it’s too soon to make firing decisions. I may still discuss the idea with my boss and boss’s boss (we have a weird reporting structure) but I’m not going to push it if they at all think it is not a good idea.

      One of the reasons I am anxious to have 2 people in house is I think some of the problems we had with the previous in house person were caused by the fact that they had to deal with all the random crap that comes up on a day to day basis, whole this other person never has to because of their unusual hours.

      So my first step to address this will be to require that the distance person start working set regular hours during the hours when we are open – I’ll let them choose them but I need to to know when they are (this is a departure from the previous arrangement of “work whenever you want”). And, they’ll have to be available on the phone 100% during that time. This has also not been the case previously – sometimes this person is watching their kids during their work hours and so doesn’t pick up the phone. This may be enough to make them want to quit, I don’t know, but it’s what we need if I don’t want to burn out the other hire.

      I will add one other thing – we’ve had terrible management here. I have a lot of respect for my bosses, they do a lot of amazing things, but neither of them are very good managers. I have been spending much of my first months cleaning up messes the previous in house person left (and that person should have been fired a year before they left), and I am anxious to get things settled so these problems don’t re-occur and I can clear up the backlog.

  121. Persephone Mulberry*

    I had an interesting career growth/self reflection moment earlier this week. Friend who has been actively pulling for me to get a job at her company texted me that a vacancy is coming up, and it happens to be a position I interviewed and was a top-3 candidate for about 15 months ago. At that time it would’ve been a lateral move in both responsibility and salary; today it would be a pretty dramatic step backward, one I’m not sure I’m willing to make even to get my foot in the door at this company. It was kind of a nice wake up call after several years of feeling like I was stagnating, to realize that I’ve actually made some forward progress in my career.

    (Kind of ironic that the feedback I was given when they went with someone else was that they didn’t think I’d be content in the role for very long.)

  122. Nicolette*

    Wow, hope 900 over comments. Hope I’m ain’t too late for the discussion.

    Anyway, what are your opinions of an exceptional employee? I read AM previous post of an OP rewarding an exceptional employee with a lot of benefits, and wonder what is it to be an exceptional employee? Any concrete examples? Taking up additional task enthusiastically may be one, but when to draw the line of being an proactive worker and a doormat? Other than taking up tasks gladly and working well with other colleagues, any other examples to share?

    1. AB Normal*

      Two other characteristics of an exceptional employee I can think of are the ability to anticipate problems and work to solve them before they create any impact, and selflessly helping others succeed. For example, once I noticed before a software migration that there was a task missing to convert a certain type of data before the migration. The missing task had nothing to do with my job; I could have just kept my observation to myself, and nobody would have been able to blame me when the problem happened. But I went to talk to the appropriate group, and they were super grateful, as my alert avoided a serious and costly problem. This sort of attitude, including minor stuff like pointing out a typo in an important presentation to help a colleague look good in front of the executive team, earned me a reputation of a star worker in all my jobs. From time to time someone would send me a thank you note copying my boss and my boss’s boss–I think they were so impressed with the fact that I was helping without any gain for myself that they went to great lengths to let my superiors know.

    2. fposte*

      While I think some of it depends on the kind of work you do, the employees I’ve thought of as exceptional have been not only eager to do work, they have thought about where it fits broadly into the overall goal and mission. They therefore are saying “And I thought about notifying not only the teapot maker’s guild but also the coffee folks, since there’s some overlap–should I go ahead and and do that?” They take ownership of their work and pride in it, and see successes of other staff as highly satisfying as well as their own.

      With them, I get very used to a certain polite, patient look when I’m offering a suggestion or adding information that is something they’ve already thought of and done.

      1. Nicolette*

        Hi both, thanks for the valuable insights and they are really true! Will keep that in mind.

        Anyway as AB Normal mentioned – to help fellow colleagues out. I wouldn’t mind helping them but so far my experience hasn’t been all that positive. E.g. there was once I helped a colleague to fill in a sales contract using acrobat pro (only I and another colleague had that software) in my previous job, my manager was a little annoyed because she thought I wasn’t working. I wanna be nice and helpful but I also not want to be treated as a doormat or seems like I have nothing much to do on hand.

        1. AB Normal*

          ” E.g. there was once I helped a colleague to fill in a sales contract using acrobat pro (only I and another colleague had that software) in my previous job, my manager was a little annoyed because she thought I wasn’t working.”

          Hmm… Nicolette, were your own tasks in good shape when you had this reaction from your manager? In my case, I’d have already finished anything I could possibly advance in my own projects before taking on any tasks such as reviewing the PPT of a colleague who’d asked because he knows I’m a good proofreader. I also produced a weekly report highlighting everything I accomplished in a week and what’s the next milestones, so if my boss saw me helping another colleague, he’d never worry that I’m not working.

          Perhaps it’s a matter of making your work products more visible, so when you are helping someone else, your manager doesn’t think you are doing it at the expense of your own tasks?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think that there is one magic bullet- do this and you will always get a standing ovation. no.

      But one recurring theme I have seen is one’s ability to handle one’s self and situation when things start going awry. Call it grace under fire, or thinking on your feet or any number of things.

      We see it in smaller ways here, when an OP writes in with a problem. As the discussion goes on the OP changes their mind, alters what they are doing, etc and those are the OPs that are most admired. Because we all KNOW how hard it is to change mid-course.

      Then there are larger issues for instance, where the ceiling falls in at work. Now what do you do? Are you running and screaming and getting others even more upset? Or are you pushing others out the door to safety?
      Yeah, an extreme example. The idea is which end of the problem are you on- the panic end or the trouble shooting end? Are you thinking of solutions? Even just offering patches that would do for the moment? People notice who remains composed and who doesn’t. People notice who shares knowledge and who doesn’t. People really notice when someone rolls up their sleeves and helps bat clean-up.

      The go-to people are the ones that have shown time and time again that they are not afraid of a head-banging problem. They know that they do not lose a part of themselves when they say “I am not sure here.” And then they add “Let’s try this and see.”

  123. BB*

    Question about writing resume. At my last job, I worked in a support role to different departments. Background: I worked at a small nonprofit so those “departments” were very small (1-2 people). However, on my resume, I just stated my position and listed everything as bulleted points below it. Should I leave it or rewrite it in a way to show that I supported X, Y, and Z departments?

    Thanks.

    1. CoffeeLover*

      I don’t exactly understand how you want to change it, but did you do different work for those departments? Then it would make sense to say “did X with Y result for Z department.” I wouldn’t reorganize the section to be something like this (if that’s what you’re suggesting):
      Teapot Maker Supporter
      X Department
      – accomplishment/task
      Y Department
      – accomplishment/task
      This doesn’t add value to your resume and takes up space. Maybe do this if you did significantly different work for each department.

  124. CKB*

    I hope I’m not too late to this party, but I need some advice. I was laid off yesterday for business reasons. I was working for a large multi national company, and our segment and area has been under extreme pressure to make profitability targets. The head office decided that two controllers was a luxury that they didn’t want to pay for anymore, and I was let go because even though I had more experience in this segment, the other controller had more seniority in the company as a whole. I am 100% sure it was not due to my performance – just last month I was given a higher than average merit increase, and my manager looked physically ill during the meeting. To say it was unexpected is an understatement.

    Anyway, what is the best way to frame why I was let go when I am asked? I don’t want to get into too much detail, but I’m not coming up with a concise answer (I’m sure my emotions aren’t helping, even though demand for accounting professionals in my city is very high). I’m hoping to start my job search next week, and this is something that is concerning me.

    1. CoffeeLover*

      “Organizational restructuring due to financial difficulties.”
      If they ask more detail you can say:
      “The company has struggled to increase profits and decided to decrease the number of controllers. Although I preformed well (even receiving an above average merit increase the month before), I was laid off.”
      If they ask why you and not the other guy, you can say:
      “Although I can’t be certain, the other controller had been with the company for X years, which may have been a factor in the decision.”

      1. BRR*

        I like how you worded it. Hopefully you have a good reference from it. I was fired from my last job where I did A and B. I was fired for being bad at A. I applied to jobs that only did B. I was able to say I was let go for A but my old manager for B would speak highly of my work. The fact that my manager would back me up really helped out so hopefully you have the same.

  125. Lesigh*

    My boss is incredibly inappropriate in some of the things he says and does. He is not management material by a long shot in so many ways, which I’m not saying is a bad thing because I’m not either, but then that’s why I don’t take management positions. Anyway, he jokes about things that could be considered sexual harassment should someone wish to press the issue and today he used the word cock sucker to describe one of the clients. He’s also talked to employees, myself included, about another employee that he supervises with whom he’s having issues.

    I just shake my head. I’m not mad about this or anything, it’s just bizarre and I think I’m just so sick of working in dysfunctional workplaces and/or with dysfunctional bosses that I just have to get this off my chest.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I worked one place where if someone said the CS term or similar, people would say “careful” and then walk away/change topic/wrap up the conversation. It was just one word, by itself.

      I thought it was a classy way of getting a point across, no lectures, no threats, no discussion. Just one word hanging in the air.

  126. LD*

    Question: should I go to an interview for an administrative job with a company that found my resume online but didn’t give any job description or salary and requires a long commute?

    2. Student*

      First off, do you want to go to the interview?

      Well, can you find enough online information to establish that the company is baseline legitimate?

      Are you prepared to leave if it’s really just a high-pressure sales pitch or outright scam?

      Do you have the sense not to give them your credit card or social security info until you have a lot more information?

      Can you afford to attend an interview, or will it jeopardize your current job? Are you unemployed and in need of a job immediately?

      Are you in a high organized-crime area, where this may be a job working for or with criminals?

      Most importantly, if you are interested, can you ask them some questions and get reasonable responses?

      If it was me, I’d ignore it unless I was unemployed. If I was unemployed, I’d try to research the company (do more than just visit their web site) and I’d ask for a job description. If I couldn’t find anything notable about the company, OR if they responded with hostility or evasiveness or crazy to the job description request, I’d turn them down. If everything went okay with that, I’d go to the interview but I’d be looking hard for signs of a scam, a high-pressure sale, or shady conduct; I’d be mentally ready to leave at the first sign of trouble (and perhaps physically ready for a little trouble with some mace in my purse).

        1. Jean*

          If you’re sensing this much potential danger, how about having a friend give you a ride and wait for you offsite (and inconspicuously) during the interview?

  127. Jess*

    Even later to the game, but I had a question on behalf of a family member.

    How do you bypass recruiting positions that want a specific degree? My father recently found himself jobless. He’s been working in a computer-related field for longer than I’ve been alive, and I’m getting towards 30. But now he’s finding that he’s getting screened out because he doesn’t have the appropriate degree, one which wasn’t even a thing when he went to school.

      1. Jess*

        I always hear networking but I was never sure how that actually worked, especially in cases where the bridges to the last place got burnt. I mean, I work in a field where conferences and such are a big deal, but that’s never been much of a thing for what he does – it seems to be a lot more geeks holed up in an office type work. And I don’t think he wants to be doing contracting since it doesn’t have benefits, at least not until medicare age.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          What about vendors or clients he met while at Last Place?

          A friend of mine tried teaching continuing ed courses, just to put herself out there and meet people. She did not make a lot of money, of course, but she did not do it forever either.

    2. Felicia*

      Generally in smaller companies they ask for “X Degree or equivalent experience” and frequently take people with equivalent experience which your dad seems to have. My mom doesn’t have a degree, the profession she’s in didn’t need one when she started 30 years ago, if she were starting the same thing now, it would need a degree. Usually with that experience level no one really cares what degree you got (as long as you have that level of experience in the same thing). So the only way I can see him being screened out is if it’s a big company that uses some sort of automatic software for that, or a particularly bad HR department. My mom just got a new job in her field by applying on a job board – the job said it needed a degree (this one didn’t even say equivalent experience) and they didn’t care. I’d think in computer related things , from what i’ve heard anyways, they’d care far more about whether you can do the stuff, especially if you already have the track record

      1. Jess*

        That’s been the issue – for a computer field he’s hearing you have to apply online for everything, and the computers seem to be screening things out. A lot of the places that don’t are doing contract to hire positions, which he’s not willing to do because of the benefits situation. My mother is partially disabled so there’s some very real concerns there about being able to afford quite expensive medical care.

        He’s had I think 3 different jobs in the past 30 years. Of course, there’s also the nagging worry that some places might not want to hire someone 10 years from retirement. And he got told up front at one place that they wanted a newer person who couldn’t get as much of a salary.

    3. Trixie*

      It may be the lack of degree but more likely its the market itself and possibly his resume/materials need sprucing up. Has he been with the same company forever, or a few over the years? Either way, I would try to show how his experience has grown.

  128. Sharm*

    Well, I’m too late for this thread, but I need to vent. I’ve debated even posting here, because I fear the response will be, “It was your own damn fault for not asking enough questions or negotiating harder.” True. Lesson learned.

    I started a new job about 5 weeks ago. My previous job was very boring and my company, while full of lovely people, grated on me for its immaturity. I just feared I wasn’t gaining any marketable skills for down the road, even though I was coasting for the present.

    I found a job that looked interesting — valuable skills that are in demand, a step up in title, and when the offer came in, almost a doubling of my salary. I actually didn’t want the job because I just couldn’t get the right vibe of the culture (and there was my fatal mistake), but I was never going to be offered that kind of money where I live AND the job was interesting, so I thought I could deal with it.

    Well, I basically hate it. I am drained beyond belief. I can chalk some of that up to having so much more to do now and being busy. That, I can handle. Some days, I actually like it. But that’s not the issue. I can’t stand my VP, who has zero appreciation of the work I’ve done and how fast I get it done. My manager is incredibly flaky and not at all organized — to make sure I could get time with her, I scheduled a standing weekly meeting with her, and she’s canceled on me all but one time. She gives me absolutely no notice when she cancels either.

    The culture is that of workaholics. People come in at 8 and don’t leave until 7 or 7:30. They don’t take lunch. And it’s not even that people eat at their desks at lunchtime; people will railroad morning meetings and talk for so long, it goes through the lunch hour, with zero apology.

    The thing that frustrates me is, I asked about the hours and this work environment, and my manager told me straight up, “Oh, most people come in at 8 and leave at 5. I don’t feel overwhelmed and think the work is manageable during regular hours.” I asked her about weekend and evening events and she told me straight up, “Oh no, you don’t have to attend those.” Fast forward to now, with everyone staying so late, the pressure is on me to do the same. (Even though I continue to get my shit done by 5.) She came over to me the other day and said I was welcome to join them at weeknight events. “It’s not required! But you’re totally welcome to come! You should come!” What the fuck is that.

    I know for this site, people who are salaried think putting in 50-60 hours a week is expected. I’ve always been salaried, and that has never been my experience. Some days, you work late to hit a deadline. No problem there. But 50 hours as a baseline? I feel like I was misled.

    On top of that, people are constantly checking their email and responding at ungodly hours of the evening. They all take work home on weekends and send tons of email on weekends. Again, I feel like this should have been stated in the open when I asked about it. But they didn’t!

    I don’t know if I can hold out on this job for a year. But, I’ve already had short stints on my resume, and I don’t even know how I would breach this with the manager. My old company loved me and gave me a standing invitation to come back whenever. Two other jobs that I thought would be a better fit but didn’t pay as well are still open. I am so tempted to leave right now. But, it isn’t SO bad. It’s just that I don’t fit in this culture at all, and I am really regretting this choice. I miss my free time, and the tension of having to always be on email is already taking a toll on my health.

    I know I’ll be told to suck it up and deal with the consequences of my actions, but I feel pretty vulnerable. And I needed to tell someone, because I don’t know how to tell the people in my life I made a career mistake.

    1. anonymous one*

      I don’t think you messed up in taking the job. You were just looking to elevate your career. Who can fault you for that?

      Your story sounds a bit like mine. I left a job I loved but had totally outgrown, a job that was no longer good for my career progression. I took another job….easily one of the biggest career mistakes of my life. But I never would have known that if I hadn’t taken it. I liked the work itself for the most part, but the volume and expectations were beyond absurd for the salary and industry. It was a huge change from the expectations in my old job. I couldn’t hold out a year, but the difference between your situation and mine is that I had issues with coworkers and management. It was a weird place in many ways. I ended up leaving on mutual terms, but I wouldn’t recommend that route. I would truly recommend sticking it out for a year, unless you are being abused or are physically sick from the work or something like that.

      I was actually exhausted a lot on that job to the point that I could barely take care of my responsibilities outside of work. But looking back, I feel like I put in all that effort for nothing, since I couldn’t last a year. I put my career at risk, raising eyebrows for a short stint. That is why I make the recommendation above to just try to stick it out. Start looking for a job closer to the year mark, or figure out how long it takes to get a job in your field, in your city, and work that into your timeline.

      For me, the problem is, it’s been a year and I still haven’t found a new job. :(

      I hope this was helpful. I just really wanted you to know I know the feeling. And that you didn’t do anything wrong. It’s just not the job for you, and that’s ok.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Eek, that sounds terrible. I’m sorry it isn’t working out. :(

        What I’d do it is stay the year (or as long as you feasibly can) and stockpile as much money as you can in a savings account. At least if you need to quit to save your own sanity and you don’t have something else lined up, at least you have a decent nest egg to get you through the bad time.

        I can relate though. LastJob was rather like that: working from 9-7 or 8

        1. voluptuousfire*

          Somehow I submitted the comment before I finished it.

          I can relate though. LastJob was rather like that: working from 9-7 or 8 pm, forced fun work parties. It was definitely an adjustment from working a salaried job that never had more than the occasional overtime and that had to be approved by our manager.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      FWIW, I think you asked all the right questions and I think you got yourself a great package.

      They LIED.

      The 8-5 thing, and the weeknight activities, and the endless emails- you should have been told about that. They didn’t when asked, so they lied.

      If it were me, I would decide NOW. Either commit to a year and do most of this crap OR get out. Sitting on the fence would kill me quicker than anything else. So I would have to decide. One of my main points would be the higher salary. If I stayed my spending would increase to match my salary. That to me would be a great reason for backing out now, before I got used to the check.

      Maybe you could go talk to your boss- “gee, this was not the understanding I had when I accepted this job….” Give her a shot at it. Maybe she will say “Oh we only do this in the fall, the rest of the year we are sane.”
      Maybe you can find a coworker who is chatty. Get a feel for how things go, is it like this all the time?

      As far as friends and family are concerned, if they can do a 24/7 job then all the power to them. That is not what you signed on for and it is not what you were led to believe the job was.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      For what it’s worth, since your old company wants you back, if you wanted to go back there or to one of those other jobs, I think you could just totally leave this off your resume. Five weeks (hell, three months) is short enough that you don’t need to include this.

    4. Just Visiting*

      This is why I’m so grateful I temped at my last assignment instead of jumping in. They said it was forty hours/week, but my ears were open. Whenever someone said something like “man, gonna be another late night” or “yeah, I only came in on Saturday morning,” I was listening. I even have difficulty working a 40-hour week, hours like theirs or yours would have killed me. If it were me I’d go back to the old company, but then, I have no desire to advance my career and prefer to coast on a job I do well at work and can leave at work where it belongs. I’d go back and just not list this stint, but that’s because it literally would kill me to work like that.

      1. C Average*

        The original post, and this reply in particular, really got me thinking.

        I work in a company that’s notoriously hard to get into, and is heavily populated by Type A go-getters. For my nearly 8 years here, I’ve been very much a participant in that culture. I doubt I’ve worked a single 40-hour week here ever (including when I was hourly and wasn’t supposed to work overtime; I just lied about it, as many others do). I check email on vacation, I work on weekends, I work in the evenings. If I get up at 2 a.m. for a glass of water, I check my email and frequently respond. This is all stuff I consider normal. If someone asked me what kind of work hours I put in, I’d shrug and say “about average.” I wouldn’t be attempting to be deceptive. Professionally speaking, I’ve grown up in this culture.

        I’ve reached a point where I’d like to coast a little. Two weeks ago I had a closed-door meeting with my unofficial mentor and confessed to her that I’m tired of working so hard in a role that I have never enjoyed or considered myself well suited for. (I’ve been in this role three years, and it’s always been hard for me. I think there are aspects of it that always will be hard for me. Part of why I put in so many hours is because that’s what it takes for me to do a good job at it. People tell me I do a good job, and I value that praise, but I don’t think they have a clue what it takes to do the job as well as I do.) I asked her advice about taking a lateral move that’s actually sort of a step back: I’d be doing the job I used to do.

        I interviewed for the job last week, and really hope I get it. I know one of the things I was up against was the preconceived idea that I’ll be bored in this job because I know the work well and because it’s not as difficult or sophisticated as what I’m doing now. I also know it’s a job that many younger people view as a stepping-stone job; it’s not the place where an 8-year employee normally lands when she wants to coast for a while. I actually think that would be a huge asset to the team: I’d bring stability and tenure to a group that sees a lot of movement as young go-getters move on to bigger and better things. I’m sure I will want to move on to bigger and better things again eventually. Right now I kind of just want a rest. I know the new job wouldn’t be easy, but it would be a hell of a lot easier than what I’m doing now.

        Knowing how much is too much, and sticking to your guns on it, is something I admire and could probably stand to learn how to do a little better. I’ll also be mindful, going forward, that the climate where I work might not be for everyone, and that my “normal” isn’t everyone else’s.

  129. Emily Shaw*

    Hope I’m not too late for the thread…about two weeks ago I asked for help with an employee who was not a good performer and, among other things, sent me a lot of off-topic emails instead of doing work…well, the week before last he sent me another one, and I went over and told him that when he sent those he was not demonstrating to me that he was committed to the job and that they needed to stop. Later that day, he sent me a long, not very cohesive email about some things that were not relevant…when we met that week I addressed not the contents but the time he spent working on it was not appropriate (I knew it took him more than 1.5 hours). We ended up firing him this week (in the meantime, his work did not improve and he sent *my* supervisor a long, rambling, completely off-topic email). This was one of the weirdest things I have ever experienced, at work or otherwise – but I did get good feedback in the process.

    2. Trixie*

      Looking back at your previous post, I’m really glad TPTB agreed that this employee needed to go. How on earth did this person even get hired? He must have had assistance preparing his written materials (resume/CL) which made him look great on paper. Given his tendency to produce long, rambling off-topic emails, I wonder if including an on-the-spot writing assignment/sample (reproduce an updated CL of sorts) in the interview process would have helped. Does this applicant follow directions, stay on topic in a focused and succinct manner. Granted, it probably wouldn’t have flagged his inappropriate, unprofessional behaviors to the extreme you experienced.

      1. Emily shaw*

        We do have a writing and basic skills test as part of our hiring process. I don’t do reference checks and haven’t seen his, but there were I guess some flags that should have been questioned further.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I am so glad to hear you got this one resolved. And I am kind of glad that your supervisor also had a part in this experience-seeing an email first hand.

      There was a person that did this in a group that I joined. Loooong emails, daily. Drove everyone nuts and the person never, ever understood what was wrong and why everyone was mad.

  130. Rahim Johnson*

    Rock and a hard place

    I posted a similar question some time ago but the discussion has come up again so I would like to get some other viewpoints.

    I am just curious to learn how others have dealt with a situation where two managers give you conflicting directions.

    To review: I work in IT. I was forcibly transferred into a project that I had been contributing a large portion of my time to. Although there had been some sort of agreement between these managers about my availability I was never given clear boundaries and was in the dark. Long story short: When I was transferred, I had to hand over authority and access of systems I managed to others who would need a lot of help. I was asked for assistance with a non-emergency issue and waited for clearance from the project manager since this was protocol. The department manager took exception to this and accused me of refusing to assist during an emergency and from what I heard tried to have me fired. This incident resulted in a visit by HR representatives who came to “calm me down”. The Department Manager implied that I was still accountable for these critical systems even though I was no longer allowed to administer them. I asked the Project Manager for time to provide additional documentation to prevent future problems but this request was refused and I was told that those system issues were now there problem.

    There was never a meeting that I was included in to ensure that all were on the same page and this incident was the last straw in a series of negative actions and I decided to resign shortly afterward.

    What would you have done?

    1. Graciosa*

      It’s a little difficult to separate all the pieces of this out. I have the clear sense that you believe you were treated unfairly, so my advice may seem a little harsh. You need to let that go and focus on what you could have done differently to change the outcome. I’m not saying this because I have enough information to decide that any of the people involved were right or wrong, but rather because the only thing you have the power to change is your own behavior and reactions.

      When HR is visiting to “calm you down” this is not a sign that everyone in the company believes you are calm, cool, and collected. It’s a sign that someone believes (rightly or wrongly) that you were having an emotional reaction instead of a professional one. Think about what could have caused them to think this and how you could avoid having it happen again.

      With respect to the more business centered IT issues, I’m sensing some ownership / territoriality issues here as well as some quality / business continuity ones. These systems are never “yours” as they belong to the company. You seem to feel a bit aggrieved about no longer controlling them – but what if something happened to you? No one should ever been indispensable to the running of a company or a key system within it. Things should be set up so that if someone is not available, the work can go on as planned. Well-documented processes and procedures, well-documented code (which is not nearly as common in software as it should be) and good work instructions go a long way to ensuring that this happens.

      I know you asked the project manager for time to create this documentation later – but is it possible that this highlighted the fact that you had failed to do it as part of your normal work? Can you learn from this and do a better job in the future?

      You seem to have specific expectations about how many parts of this should have been handled – I would recommend you examine each of them closely and see if they are reasonable in a business environment and if there were other actions you could take to avoid a problem in each case. The expectations I’m picking up include:

      1. No one should transfer you to another project without your permission (“Forcibly” – really?);
      2. Your control of “your” systems should not be given to anyone else;
      3. Referring to protocol is a proper response when asked for assistance by a department manager;
      4. Being deprived of control of a system completely relieves you of any responsibility for it even though you still work for the company;
      5. You should be allowed extra time (taken from your current assignment) to create documentation for a previous assignment that you failed to handle at the time;
      6. Demanding the attendance of numerous stakeholders at a meeting to discuss the situation would be a good use of company resources and something to which you are entitled; and
      7. Resigning after these (and other) experiences is the proper professional reaction.

      I don’t think all of these are reasonable expectations in a business environment when you view it from the point of view of the business (which is probably how the managers involved are going to view it). Some may be more reasonable than others depending upon the exact circumstances, but (again) the only thing you control is your own behavior and reactions.

      If you’re looking for sympathy, my response isn’t going to help. If you’re genuinely trying to figure out how to avoid the situation, think about these points as objectively as you can and try to identify what you can change in yourself.

      Best wishes.

      1. Ted*

        At this point, Graciosa it’s called rubbing salt in a wound.

        And I question your assumptions:
        It is incredibly difficult to work in two areas simultaneously- most likely they were edging him out and wanted the job documented before they fired him.
        So he was damned if he helped, damned if he didn’t without permission. Can’t have it both ways.
        “3. Referring to protocol is a proper response when asked for assistance by a department manager;”

        He tried to help- asked to help only wanted permission and time.
        “4. Being deprived of control of a system completely relieves you of any responsibility for it even though you still work for the company;”

        How do you know they failed to produce documentation?
        “5. You should be allowed extra time (taken from your current assignment) to create documentation for a previous assignment that you failed to handle at the time;”

        I am sure we can all learn from work experiences and hope that OP does; personally I wouldn’t have quit- let the pay unemployment.

        1. Rahim Johnson*

          Thanks Ted (I like giving direct responses)

          What I had on my plate was immense but I was dealing with it for a while but needed help. I have a very strong work ethic and took on the high work load for the chance to learn.

          If I had more tenure and my financial situation had been different, I would have stayed but and let the chips fall wherever they would have, but I chose to move on before that could happen.

          Thanks again

      2. Rahim Johnson*

        Great points- Graciosa. I have never had a problem with someone being blunt or harsh and I see where you are coming from. If those managers had your thinking, we might still be there.

        I know I made some mistakes in how I handled parts of this situation but I also did certain things deliberately to expose their true intentions.

        To clarify, my reaction during this entire process was consistent with my customary calm nature. My only outward reaction was shock at being told I was being transferred. The Department Manager apologized profusely and told me it was not his/her choice. The Project Manger told me the same thing. So they were lying to me. I was respectful throughout the entire process even as I expressed my concerns.

        We had documentation, but it was intended for persons who had regular access and a certain base skill set and some training. There were time constraints and unwise arrangements that resulted in my situation as the sole possessor of key knowledge a position I was never comfortable with. There was no easy way to troubleshoot considering how each system interacted and this is why one of the architects eventually had to be called in. This person had trained me and my presence lessened the dependency on him which was his plan all along. I was ordered to hand over everything to another person who did not have that base skill set. They were capable yes, but my issue was with their lack of planning. It would have not taken much to get anyone up to speed and I was more than willing to be this “ace in the hole.” But it was not handled in a professional or organized way and when they attempted to make me out to be the bad guy, I was done with them.

        I do believe the entire situation could have been averted with just one or two meetings which. But this never happened and the rest is history.

    2. Student*

      I would’ve spoken to them both individually, to get my side of the story out. Address the specific concerns if the manager you are talking to without going into detail about the other manager (or your anger at being transferred).

      Then, explain that you need that manager’s help setting priorities, because you are also working for Other Manager, who has a full plate for you as well. Ask each manager to agree to meet with you and the other manager. Then, arrange the meeting yourself, outline the major couple of things you do for each, and ask them to work out between them how your time should be split. Make sure they reach an actual agreement; if they don’t, take their squabble to someone higher on the corporate totem pole to work out a real answer.

      Then, when one of them eventually complain about how you’ve dealt with the split later, refer back to the agreement at the meeting. Pretend to be apologetic, but say you couldn’t address their task-of-the-day due to duties to the other manager, and refer the angry manager to the other manager to sort out the issue.

      1. Rahim Johnson*

        All excellent responses.

        I posted this because I still am in touch with some former colleagues who tell me I am missed and wish I was still there. Some also believe I could have toughed it out and outlasted them. I believe something very bad would have happened if I had stayed. (Both managers were gone less than six months after I resigned.) Not sure if my departure accelerated that process but some of my consultant buddies had to be called in to cover parts of my job. One at 10x my salary because those who remained could not handle all of my tasks as they had their own workload and time constraints.

        Not looking for sympathy, just sensibility. Each of you make sense and I appreciate that.

        My reference to being calmed down may have been stated out of context. I was never irate but I was annoyed and worn-down after endearing months of abuse by one of these mangers. I enjoy peace and up to that point I had been a working professional for over 20 years and while I am far from perfect, a little sensitive yes, but I had a long establish reputation for being extremely easy to work with, manage and so forth. My patience was a well know trait. I brought a level of compassion to my work that others appreciated and I had never been a problem for any manager (as far I as I know anyway) up until that time. I was usually able to sense tension and issues and avoid them or avert them before they got out of hand and I failed miserably this time.

        When I was told about the transfer, I asked why I was not included in any discussions and was told I did not need to be. “People get transferred all of the time, you will be back when the project is over” was the retort. I would have gladly cooperated with any outlined succession plan, but there was none. I was just ordered to change my code and get out of the department. I knew something was up, but I tried to be cooperative and provided a list of my tasks and this manager thought I was exaggerating.

        I did go to HR to confirm that the transfer was initiated and they told that this was the first they had heard of it. This got the IT manger very angry so that is on me. But I had very specific and legit reasons for asking about this. When I was accused of not responding in a timely manner to a so called emergency, I sent a detailed email explaining the protocol and asked for clarification. This person never spoke to me agains. I wanted to take it higher but HR advised me to follow their orders I expressed my concerns and they agreed but I guess they thought cooler heads would prevail. I worked for the company six years and never had an issue, and I was labeled a complainer for simply asking for clarification. The main issue for me was accountability.

        Getting a little long here, but I did provide documentation on my own and worked there for a month after that major blowup, plenty of time to get together and make sure we were all on the same page. Did not happen. I got hired by another company three weeks after this incident and was terminated the day I submitted my two weeks notice.

        My former teammates called me for over a year for info on those systems until they were finally replaced. The project’s purpose was to replace those systems but they needed to be run properly until that time. I know I probably panicked but I like the new job I have but still think about what could have been. I had to make a lot of adjustments due to this issue and I do reflect on it from time to time.

        Thanks again for the feed back. There are wise people on this site!

      2. Rahim Johnson*

        Student thanks for your reply as well.

        Having a meeting with would have been the thing to do. But things had gone from bad to worse very quickly. I truly feared for my job but did try to make my feelings clear to both of them on several occasion. So in a way we did talk but they did not listen to me. They either unwilling or unable to change the course of action in this matter and I took ownership of my career path and let them sort it out for themselves.

        Both managers had already done enough for me not to trust either of them. Being lied to is not something I take lightly and they both did this. They may have even fiegned cooperation openly if we were to meet. Remember, there was some sort of agreement in place, but the Project Manager actions showed that they had no intention of following through, at least willingly and the IT manager did not want me. I was not going to risk the safety of the company’s systems and my job on the chance that they would suddenly change their viewpoints. My departure forced them to do the right thing.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would have resigned.

      I have a different take on this. You had two bosses that were basically fighting over you. I suspect there was some kind of power play between the two of them that had nothing to do with you. I could be off-base here, but sometimes when things seem reeeally weird it has nothing to do with the latest casualty in the situation (meaning you in this example).

      To me,the straw that breaks the camel’s back here is that you were not included in the meetings that were to resolve the situation. I think this is in part because the problem was not you but actual problem was that these two managers hated each other and you were their pawn. Barest minimum you should have been brought in at the end of the meeting to be told what the new agreement was.

      See, the reason I would resign is not for any one thing, but for all these things combined.

      I see the part about HR being brought in to calm you. The only thing I can say there is that you let too much go on for too long. You let it all build up and the dam burst. Next time ask for clarifications at the earliest possible point, perhaps you had opportunities in the previous events that you could have pushed for clarity. BUT since the HR person came right away to talk to you, I wondered if she was used to doing this because of situations with other people.

      You don’t indicate how long you worked there or how long your predecessor lasted. Also, I don’t see any indication of other people having problems with either boss. These would be factors to mull over, too.

      I think that it is good to autopsy situations up to a point. Pick one or two things to do differently in a similar situation and decide that you are done thinking about this. Don’t beat yourself up, you could have just been working with miserable people that enjoy making other people as unhappy.

      1. Rahim Johnson*

        Thanks Reader

        That is generally my conclusion as well. I still have good a good rapport with many still there including some members of HR. But I have seen people who were in the right suffer only to be told later in some way that there were mistakes made. I chose not to let that happen to me and did not want this job to dominate my entire life.

        I was employed there over six years and for three years there was an overlap with my predecessor. I had a backup who left a few months before I did. There were issues there as well, but those were honestly not all on me. But I won’t go into that right now.

        Both managers resigned six months later. The IT manager was directly or indirectly responsible for multiple terminations and I can only speak to how the project manager treated me although I heard that she had issues with others but that is hearsay.

        I have taken this entire situation as a learning experience. My strength is perhaps also a weakness of sorts. I try to be patient and tolerant because it has served me well in life and on the front lines of IT. This quality has endeared me to many people. But I probably let this go on longer than it should have and then the dam busted. Specifically the treatment I endured from the Project Manager. But as I clarified in my other comments, I never overreacted or disrespected anyone in this situation, but perception is reality and for that brief period of time I was the bad guy and it was very uncomfortable.

        Thanks to you as well.

  131. Michaella*

    Not sure if anyone is still here and might have to ask this next week, but I am wondering if I shot myself in the foot.

    I kept applying for customer facing jobs with a company and heard nothing. I applied for their call center with gritted teeth because I have experience in it and needed a job, just don’t want to ‘use’ it and got a call almost straight away. During the interview I asked for feedback if there was anything I had done wrong with applying for the other jobs because I prefer working with customers in face to face interaction. I didn’t end up getting the call center one, is it because I asked that question? I know I shouldn’t have asked, but I really needed feedback about getting out of a being a phone robot career path.

    1. BRR*

      There’s no real way of knowing. It’s probably not in your best interest to ask during a job interview why you didn’t get another job. Would the people you interviewed with even have known why you didn’t get it (were they involved in the other hiring process)?

      1. StudentA*

        I agree with the above 2 comments. Not sure that it’s appropriate to ask in an interview for one type of job why one deosn’t get an offer for another type of job in the same company.

  132. Fruitfly*

    Will it seem odd that I have never seen the finance department of my organization? I have worked there for a little more than a year and I plan to stay there for as long as I can. My job sometimes require me to sent emails to people in finance, but my duties just never needed me to go up to their department. I worked in a small organization with only five floors of occupied space.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Five floors, to me, is big. Go up and introduce yourself. Just say, “I’ve worked here a year and a half and it seemed odd that I have never met any of you in person. So, I thought I would come up and say hi.” If they have been helpful add that in, too.

  133. The Maple Teacup*

    I’m getting a merit bonus at work. Woot! Not everyone is receiving this bonus, only exceptional employees. (Yes, I know that’s the point of merit rewards :). So my question is this, how are employees generally selected for merit bonuses? Does the manager ask team leads for recommendations? Does everyone who hands in reports on time qualify? Some kind of managerial hive mind where everyone “just knows?”

    1. CAA*

      I’m sure there are many different ways to do this, but when I’ve managed people at companies that pay merit bonuses, usually I’ve been given a pool of money and some rules for how it can be distributed. Generally the rules are around who cannot get a bonus, like: anyone on a PIP / anyone who got meets expectations or below on their perf eval / anyone in the lowest 10% of the stack ranking.

      In some companies there’s no manager discretion at all, it’s just a formula based on salary, ranking and how much money is in the pool. In these cases, the bonus is usually a written part of the compensation plan, and the pool size is based on whether the company achieves its goals.

  134. Anonyby*

    I’m feeling really stupid right now. First time doing a mail merge, and the printer jammed, then I couldn’t get it to feed the envelopes. Had to stop so that others could use the printer. Sigh.

    1. Trixie*

      Mail merges aren’t easy the first few times, but do get better with a little practice. Sometimes its the files, other times a printer that won’t cooperate. Can you print just a few letters at first to make sure everything is syncing properly, and then run the merge? Take a deep breath, and just dive back in there. You got this.

      1. Anonyby*

        My coworker (who had meant to have the envelopes already printed for me) talked me through getting it all set up. I went back and tried printing again after everyone else had cleared out of the office. This time I got it to work, though it was slow going since the printer doesn’t hold many envelopes at once. I worked on another project nearby (one of my regulars), just to kill two birds with one stone.

        Thank you for the reassurance!

      2. The+Other+Dawn*

        I completely agree with trixie. The first, I don’t know, 6 times, maybe? …it was rough. It does get better the more you do it. Sometimes it’s a problem with the spreadsheet, or it’s a wrong selection in the Wizard, and sometimes it’s just gremlins in the computer, the printer or MS Word.

  135. A.n.o.n.*

    I’m really late to the party. Well, I got my second rejection out of four applications. Disappointing but that’s ok. I put in another app for a position that’s very much like my last job, minus the IT. So I’m excited about that one and hope I hear something.

    I wasn’t offered the job that my coworker vacated but I’m fine with it. I decided it’s not for me. And my boss is just a pain lately and I want out of there. I just can’t stand the condescending tone with other department members. I really feel that employees shouldn’t be able to discern there’s a problem with other employees when were all in the same meeting. Save it for a one-on-one if there’s a problem. He’s not good at controlling his reactions and emotions.

    1. Lesigh*

      Yeah, I completely agree about saving it for one-on-one if there’s a problem. I have a manager who stinks at management, talks openly to other team members about the one team member who is a major problem, approaches her in a manner that doesn’t work at all to solve the issues, etc. It’s just screwed up so I feel you on that. Hope you’re able to get out soon.

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