open thread – October 17, 2014

by Alison Green on October 17, 2014

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

{ 1,169 comments }

{ 1,169 comments… read them below }

  1. Mike C.*

    So here’s a question I’ve been thinking about this week. It was announced that Apple and Facebook are now willing to pay for women to choose to freeze their eggs for later implantation. Is this a great perk to attract more women to places that are notorious for not being women friendly places, or will female employees be pressured to use this perk rather than take time off? I can’t really decide which.

    1. BadPlanning*

      To me, longer paternity leave where men are expected to take it (not the “we offer it, but everyone will mock you for taking it”) seems like it would be a better perk to attracting women. If men and women take baby leave, then it’s “normal” and not “ugh, she’s going to be popping out another kid….we can’t put her on project X.”

      2. Mike C.*

        Then there’s the middle ground of “yeah it’s expensive, but it’s not like we hire a ton of women anyway, so we’ll do it for the publicity”, but there’s only so much cynicism I can cram into a single post.

      3. Anonsie*

        I think this is something we should be doing across the board for a huge number of reasons, starting with the fact that dads flipping deserve it and ending with your point here.

      4. Kate, Chicago*

        An on site nursery where mothers can have easy access to their infants would be great. Especially if it was subsidized to some degree.

        1. Camellia*

          This would be fantastic on all levels. Can we get Dolly, Lily, and Jane to take over all the corporations now?

        2. Mallory Janis Ian*

          And the subsidized amount could vary by salary band. For example, at the university where I worked until just recently, there were reduced annual parking fees for those making $34K and under.

          1. Natalie*

            My company handles spouse & dependent health coverage in a similar fashion. Employee coverage is a flat amount per check, and spouse and dependent are a specific (small) percentage of your salary. It caps at $300 per paycheck if I recall correctly.

    2. NK*

      I think help with childcare would be much better. It’s a nice option for women who want it I suppose, but it feels icky to me for the latter reason you suggested.

    3. Stephanie*

      I cynically read it as a way to keep women working in the office during a time when some women leave the workforce or look for less demanding jobs (“Here! Now you can spend the last of your childbearing years crunching ad data!”). Coincidentally enough, I have a phone interview with one of those companies in a couple of hours. I find it a little creepy, especially given the cost and that the company seems to have halfway-decent maternity benefits.

      2. Ophelia*

        A coworker and I were talking about this news yesterday. I actually find it pretty offensive, as if they’re saying, as you implied, “we don’t want you to have babies and leave, so use this incentive to put off getting pregnant until you’re high enough up on the workforce hierarchy that you won’t want to stay home.” I think there are much better ways of giving incentive for women to return to work after having children, like paid maternity leave for an actually reasonable amount of time, in-house childcare, and as someone else mentioned, even paternity leave.

        This is an issue I’m especially attuned to now, as I’m currently pregnant and debating the benefits of staying at home versus working at an office. I think this is an issue facing many women in my generation as they think about whether they’ll actually make any profit by returning to work and thus needing to put their child in day care, which at least in my area, can often be more expensive than the take-home pay.

        1. Natalie*

          You probably know this, but just in case – simply comparing take home pay and childcare costs sometimes make it seem like a wash between the two choices, or even that staying home is the cheaper choice. But many people who leave the workforce for several years experience a fairly significant lifetime earnings hit. That should be part of any stay home/go back to work decision.

          1. C Average*

            + so, so much.

            My husband is a high earner and his ex-wife wanted to stay home with the kids. Financially, this was a great idea for their family. Fast-forward five years, and they’re divorcing, and she’s been out of the workforce and can’t get a job. She had to go back to school and get a second master’s to make herself marketable . . . in a brand-new field, at 42 years old.

            I make peanuts compared to my husband, and everyone’s lives would be a million times easier if I stayed home and did all the household administrative stuff and schlepped kids around. But I never will. There’s no way in the world I’d take the risk of becoming unemployable by spending time out of the workforce.

            Women (and men, too) who voluntarily opt out of the workforce need to consider what they’d do if they found themselves on their own (widowed, divorced, supporting the family if the spouse lost his or her job, etc.). These things do happen.

        2. Biff*

          I work in tech and I actually found the whole thing kind of sinister. In Silicon Valley the tech companies have all kinds of ways of making sure employees don’t go home and, more importantly, have a life that revolves around work. They have laundry services, massage services, DocWagon (ok, it’s an arm of Standford Health in a bus, but you get the point) and FB is even building corporate housing. Most teams have happy hours that blur the lines between friends and coworkers, managers and crew. I felt like this was another extension of the effort to keep people at work, in their chair.

          But more than that, this benefit is an anchor. Freezing eggs is an expensive proposition. Once you are using the company dough to store your eggs…. it’s going to be very difficult to jump ship for a similar position unless it comes with a pay hike. Otherwise, good-bye eggs. And, if you do choose to jump ship and lose them… it might mean no children at all. While it’s all a moot point to me (no kids, don’t want kids) for some I see this as a faustian bargain.

    4. Pontoon Pirate*

      I’m still sorting out my own thoughts on this one, but there was a thoughtful article in Slate this week that touches on other reasons this perk might be considered from the perspective of a women who knows she wants kids, wants to raise them with a partner, but isn’t there yet in her personal life. The author suggests that it is a benefit that should be on the table alongside the benefits we sorely lack: paid parental leave, for instance. http://slate.me/1CwjCfB

      1. Pontoon Pirate*

        My comment is in moderation because I provided a link, but I’ll take the opportunity here to clarify that the article itself is not written by a woman who “knows she wants kids …” yadda, but that the author poses this perspective as one she encounters frequently as a medical specialist dealing with high-risk pregnancies.

      2. The IT Manager*

        I didn’t give this as much thought as many of you, but it struck me as a perk. I never had a great desire for kids but expected it to happen after I got the husband. I am now in the risky/difficult child bearing years. Knowing what I know that I’m 40 without kids yet, it seems like a perk to me. I kind of wish this had been an option in my early 30s; although, I had serious boyfriend then and fully expected to have his ifs until the relationship fell apart.

      3. Sunflower*

        This is exactly how I feel. There are a lot of women who aren’t planning to have children til later for many reasons that don’t necessarily revolve around ‘the maternity policy in my office sucks’. There are some women who may want to continue working and not take time off til later as a personal preference, not because they feel they are forced into it by their strict leave policies

      4. Larisa*

        This was actually my good friend’s response. She is 31 and wants children. She’d have them now if she could. Only thing is….she is single. She hasn’t met the right person to be the father of those children She said she would jump on an offer from an employer to freeze her eggs for later in life when she has met that right person. She is concerned her ‘best’ fertile years are being wasted right now.

      5. Kyrielle*

        …I hadn’t considered that. Thank you: I have had to reconsider my position on this, and I really appreciate it.

        I will instead say that I think such a policy should be embedded in a family-friendly context, with good policies for those who do want to (and can) have children now.

        But this has seriously changed my view quite a bit. Thank you again.

      6. Anonsie*

        Ding ding ding. What keeps being left out of this issue is that a lot of us actually want such a benefit because we really don’t want to have kids young, for whatever other reasons.

        In fact I feel like that gets left out of the women in the workplace discussions all the time… The fact that not all women want kids or want kids young or want to be home all the time* or whathaveyou. A third of women never have children, but issues of women in the workplace consistently come back to being a working mom– with the occasional dip into being underpaid. I’m not at all arguing that the issues working moms face aren’t important or pervasive, but boy is that not the only problem, and I think we are creating a lot of additional complications by consistently couching this issue from the perspective of the young mom only.

        *I will refrain from getting on my soap box about how much the responsibilities of the other parent are also left out despite being a holy crap huge and irreconcilable part of these problem

        1. JC*

          YES, thank you for saying this. Being able to work if you choose and also have the benefits that help you with being able to raise your child the way you want is absolutely an important issues for parents. But as a woman who does not want children, I often find it frustrating that some discussions of women in the workplace come to a stop at the issue of children. It also does not help that I am in a demographic where others expect I will have a baby soon (32 and married for several years), and so others assume that the working parent-related issues resonate with me, when they do not.

    5. MJH*

      It’s a nice idea, but women need to be aware that egg-freezing doesn’t easily solve the fertility question. Once you are ready to use them, eggs must be unfrozen and placed via IVF, which takes a total of 3 tries to work, if it does. It’s also expensive (does insurance or egg freezing cover that? If you leave the company, are freezing fees your responsibility?) and requires hormone treatments (I think.) Giving women more options NOW seems like a better idea than egg-freezing.

      I imagine the women who do take advantage are women who don’t have a partner but are worried about their bio clock or women who are undecided about kids right now. But encouragement to take maternity/paternity time for both fathers and mothers, and an atmosphere where that is welcome, seems like a much better plan.

      2. ella*

        I have a friend who recently went through IVF treatments, and while it was successful, the process was apparently less than fun.

        1. KellyK*

          Yep, “less than fun” is right. I’ve never been through IVF, but IUI is annoying, and IVF is, from what I’ve heard, worse. (The initial monitoring is the same, the end of the process is just more involved.) Here, show up bright and early for invasive tests and bloodwork, and we’ll call you in the afternoon to schedule your next appointment. It might be tomorrow, even if tomorrow is a Saturday, so don’t make any plans! Oh, and your trigger shot has to be kept refrigerated, so unless you live near a specialty pharmacy, plan on taking *yet more* time off work to sign for that delivery.

          Not that I’m cranky or anything, but I am glad to hear it worked for your friend.

          2. KellyK*

            Yeah, mine too. It doesn’t help that, of the two people I know who’ve had IVF, one had twins and one had triplets. (I think the one with twins may actually have started with trips and had a selective reduction, if I’m recalling correctly.)

            The odds of having multiples are greater than one in four for IVFs where multiple embryos are implanted, compared to one in eighty in the population as a whole.

      3. KellyK*

        Insurance generally doesn’t cover IVF. There are some states that require that it be covered, but even 50% coverage brings a 10-15k procedure down to 5-7k. Multiply that by three or four tries…yeah, ouch.

        If a company is offering egg-freezing as *part* of offering insurance that actually covers fertility issues, then that’s great. Mostly for the people you mentioned—women who don’t have a partner now or who are undecided/don’t want kids yet, but don’t want to rule out the option forever. But by itself, it very strongly sends the icky “we don’t want you to have kids while you work here—put it off as long as scientifically possible” message.

      4. Cat*

        Yeah, I seriously doubt a single person will delay having children because egg freezing is available. It is basically impossible to be a woman over 28 in modern America and to not have heard every piece of information about fertility and related options more times than you can count. So some of the coverage that is like “those selfish career women just don’t get how they need to have babies NOW and not be so selfish” really bothers me. Trust me, we know.

        This is a great option for people who aren’t in a position to have babies now and can really help them.

        1. Mike C.*

          Anyone who seriously believes that someone is selfish for not having kids at a specific time/at all needs a good smack in the face. Two smacks if they actually say it out loud.

          1. Cat*

            Yeah, it’s incredibly frustrating – another example of how women are damned if they do, damned if they don’t in society.

          2. C Average*

            Just about all kid-having decisions are selfish. People have kids young because they want to. People have kids when they’re older because they want to. People don’t have kids because they don’t want to. Personal decisions like this tend to be selfish because . . . wait for it . . . we’re making them for ourSELVES.

            My kid-having choices were selfish. So are the choices of just about everyone else who has any control over his or her fertility.

            So yeah, I agree that the whole selfishness accusation needs to go away. Not because it’s inaccurate, but because it’s universally accurate.

      5. Cucumber*

        Apologies, but I’d like to clarify some inaccuracies in what you’ve just posted. I have been dealing with infertility for almost eight years. First, egg freezing does potentially solve fertility problems for some people. No, IVF does NOT take a “total of 3 tries to work, if it does.” Some people get pregnant the first time they try with IVF; others try many times and then get pregnant, or never get pregnant after ten tries. Or, they get pregnant, but then lose the baby. Some people simply can’t succeed with their eggs, and must use eggs from a donor.

        Egg quality and number is a major reason why people turn to IVF, because these both drop naturally over time. We are born with all the eggs that we will ever have, unlike men, who also have age-related drops in fertility, but continue to generate new sperm much longer. When women are older, statistically, a greater number of their eggs are older. IVF treatment can include things like a genetic diagnosis, but it’s also possible for someone to do everything “right”, and then get told that the embryos created from their eggs are of such low quality, their IVF procedure will be cancelled.

        For whatever reason, I ended up one of those people whose egg quality and number started to drop earlier than expected, to the point where I’m expected to go into early menopause, probably 5 years early. I already have hot flashes, and I’m not yet 40.

        I’ve had multiple early miscarriages, no children. My only options to have a child now are donor eggs with IVF, donor eggs with a surrogate carrier, or adoption — assuming that I’m not one of the 5-8% of women with my condition who get spontaneously pregnant (in a last gasp by our bodies to push eggs out, some women get pregnant).

        My doctor told me I almost certainly had this condition in my twenties, and the only reason I was considered to have “unexplained infertility” for the first five years we tried, was medical error (a ob/gyn who didn’t notice my ovaries shrinking despite scans; cue some unnecessary tests), and the fact that a serum test has only been widely available for the last five years.

        So, is giving women more options “NOW” a better idea than egg freezing? Depends on the person. For a young woman working at Facebook or Apple with my condition, it might be the one shot they have to have a baby genetically related to them.

        I do agree that people should also receive paid parental leave, and onsite day care. As NPR reporters discussed this morning, very few companies cover fertility treatments, period. My company won’t pay for anything that isn’t diagnostic. IVF, medication, all that good stuff, I get to pay out of pocket.

        Yes, IVF requires days of hormone treatments to stimulate the egg production, unless you are trying the “mini-IVF” protocol. You will also be asked to take a stim shot in order to “push” the follicles and get the eggs at the right time in your schedule.

        One other thing – I haven’t read through the entire thread, but when the topic of infertility, and high tech treatments come up, there’s often someone who says, “Why don’t you just adopt?”. To anyone who thinks that, or says that – please research further before saying that. Start by learning about what’s now called the “baby scoop era”, when millions of young women got pregnant out of wedlock and gave up their children, often through coercion. Those bad old days are behind us – women have better choices these days. Adoption is very different now. There are far more couples wishing for an adopted child than homes available. The going rate for a baby ranges from $20,000 to $40,000 (unless you adopt out of foster care) and it involves many things, including thinking about home studies, whether the adoption will be “open” or “closed”, multiracial adoption, deciding on foster to adopt or whether a special needs child or child with reactive attachment disorder is something your household can handle. No one “just” adopts. Period.

        1. Natalie*

          “Start by learning about what’s now called the “baby scoop era”, when millions of young women got pregnant out of wedlock and gave up their children, often through coercion.”

          Have you read The Girls That Went Away?

          In a similar vein, there is a lot to be concerned about with foreign adoption. I highly recommend The Child Catchers (Katherine Joyce). Comprehensive look at the the difference between the narrative in the US, particularly within evangelical Christian circles, and the reality, which is substantially more complicated and horrible.

          1. Cucumber*

            Yes, I did read “The Girls That Went Away”. Simply amazing. My mother in law and one of my ex-boyfriends were both born during the Baby Scoop Era, and each has expressed anger or contempt for their bio mothers… After I read that book, I realized there was a very real chance they had been coerced or even forced to give up their children.

            Thanks for the suggestion on The Child Catchers. Overseas adoptions concern me too (one newspaper article I read, the reporter found an Indian boy who had been stolen from his family, and the adoptive parents made all kinds of excuses not to speak to his family or even check the DNA). I also have some issues with some of the LDS adoption agencies in Utah, amidst reports that children are being adopted without the father knowing or agreeing to terminate his rights. I read one news article about a teenager who was sent a plane ticket to Utah and signed paperwork to give up her child, without her parents’ knowledge or consent.

            Oh, and whoops, I meant that statistically, a larger number of women’s eggs are damaged or low quality as they age.

        2. VictoriaHR*

          I’m sorry for your struggles. I had wanted to be a surrogate or at least donate my eggs, but because my BMI was in the “overweight” category, they wouldn’t let me. And now that I’m almost 40, it’s completely off the table regardless of BMI. I wish you success in your journey!

        3. Liblady*

          There is a good book on the subject: The Big Lie: Motherhood, Feminism, and the Reality of the Biological Clock.

          1. Cucumber*

            That sounds like a fascinating book. I recall Lesley Stahl interviewing a woman who was writing a different book, about fifteen years ago, about the reality of the biological clock. She interviewed many young people who thought getting pregnant at 40 would be easy. For some of us, getting pregnant at 30, or even 20, might be hard – it really is a conversation every person (not just women) needs to think about while they still have a lot of choices.

    6. AVP*

      This is getting a lot of discussion on my young feminist Facebook group this week. All in all, it’s complicated but most of us** feel that we are pro women having options, and it’s a great benefit to have – even if you don’t use it, it’s nice to know that you have that option. I have a number of friends in high-pressure, high-visibility occupations who have mentioned interest in freezing eggs (we’re all 28-32) because we don’t know when our careers will allow us to have children, even though we think we may want them in the future. This is across single, committed relationship, and recently married women…I do wonder if we’ll get just a bit older and realize that we definitely do have time for families if we want to make it.

      On the other hand, if they’re paying for the freezing but not for the other (major) expenses that go along with it, it’s a lip-service benefit only. And it is frightening if this is just a way to encourage people to stay at the office even later and push off vacations and real life even further than we already are.

      And in general, it could be more of a symptom of our fractured health care / benefits system that no one can afford to have kids or freeze their eggs in the first place. In an ideal world, you don’t need companies to sponsor this stuff as a “perk” – it should be a reasonable option for people who want it no matter what you do as a career.

      That was a lot of rambling, but as you see we’re all a little conflicted on this!

      (**Not trying to speak for “the movement” or anyone except for the people I know!)

    7. Jubilance*

      I’d rather these companies provide a full year of paid parental leave, and then lobby both government and their peers to do the same. That would be a much bigger statement to me.

    8. whatnow*

      Having heard more about US labor laws I think better maternity leave would be an actual perk. If they have this baby from their frozen eggs, how are they going to deal with maternity leave, or as someone else said paternity leave?

      Egg freezing seems like both none of the company’s business, and potentially forcing people to put off having a baby, because they can just freeze their eggs. It seems like an area a workplace shouldn’t get involved in; other than offering great maternity leave/adoption leave/paternity leave, flexible working and good childcare options.

      1. Natalie*

        Plus daycare, after that first year or two (assuming two parents with consecutive leave). In my mid-sized city daycare for a toddler runs around $1200-1500 a month, or $7.50/hour assuming a 40 hour workweek.

      2. Nina*

        This was my thought as well. While freezing your eggs is a nice option, it doesn’t solve the problem of the pitiful maternity leave policy that so many places utilize. It feels like it’s a way to have you work harder and longer in the interim, because you’re under the impression that you can have a baby later.

        But if you’re (rightfully) concerned about the status of your job once the baby shows up, the issues you face with maternity/paternity leave are still there, whether it’s now, five years, or ten years.

        Also, what if you lose your job? Would Apple/Facebook own the eggs, or are they sitting on them until you buy them out?

        1. Cat*

          Wait, on your last sentence, I don’t think Apple and Facebook are actually providing the egg freezing services. I think they’re offering money to do it at a clinic that does it. If I’m misunderstanding that is a HUGE issue that hasn’t been reported.

          1. Nina*

            I just reread the USA Today article, since I haven’t seen it in a few days. This is what it says: “Facebook said it offers egg freezing for female employees up to $20,000” and “Apple also offers egg freezing and storage”.

            I didn’t mean that Apple or FB actually do the egg freezing themselves; that’s a whole different dept. What I meant was that if Apple & FB are footing the bill for the eggs to be stored year after year, what happens if the employee in question loses their job and can’t afford to keep the eggs in storage? Do the eggs get disposed of? If not, who owns them? I’d think the fertility clinic would, but do Apple & Facebook own any part of them as well?

            1. Cat*

              I don’t know the answers as to storage costs, but I’m sure it would be in the paperwork from the fertility clinic; this wouldn’t be sprung on you. I’m equally sure that Apple and Facebook don’t own employees’ embryos.

      3. JC*

        FWIW, my understanding is that the companies in question that are offering this *do* have good maternity leave policies in place, at least for the US (something like 4 fully paid months). My employer certainly does not offer that.

        1. JC*

          And by “maternity leave,” I meant “parental leave.” The folks I knew at facebook who were able to take advantage of their leave program were both fathers, who had also both been with facebook for less than a year.

    9. Kyrielle*

      I was honestly hugely offended and aggravated when I heard about this.

      First, family-friendly policies would be more use than reproductive services.

      Second, it’s *not that simple*. “Oh, just freeze your eggs and use them later” assumes that you won’t have problems with hormone levels preventing you from *keeping* a pregnancy, that later will ever be allowed to happen, that you won’t have a health crisis that means you never get to use the eggs at all (unless a surrogate is involved).

      Third, it’s just freezing the eggs – not fertilized, from what I read? Which means Dad is aging and his eventual sperm would be older. Which is actually a small risk factor for some health issues, as I understand it.

      And, keeping up with small children is tiring. Better for the parents and the children if the parents are young and healthy.

      The younger the parents are, the more likely they’ll live to see their children grow up.

      But most of all…it’s “oh, we know we ask you to put your life on hold for us. So we’ll help pay the hold fees!” No. No, no, no!

      (NB: I bring up age as a factor where the company is artificially influencing it. It’s certainly not a big enough factor that people should avoid kids because of it – absolutely not. But it is enough of a factor that I think a company artificially pushing the parental age of its female employees up by “helping” them is not nice, and that it might be a concern of those employees.)

      Also, want to bet that now that this is available, *women* who take parental leave at those companies will also be looked down on?

      …and if you leave the company, of course they’d no longer be paying the yearly maintenance fees, which you’d have to take on. Oops.

      1. Cat*

        I think this would be true were the company encouraging women to wait to have kids. However, an awful lot of women are just not in a position where they can have kids at the “prime” fertility age and there’s nothing wrong with a company providing egg freezing as a benefit as part of their a comprehensive suite of benefits. As a substitute for parental leave, it’s awful. In addition to generaous parental leave, it’s just another good benefit.

        1. Cat*

          SA. To clarify, it shouldn’t be an either/or – either you have fertility benefits or you have programs to support parents. You should definitely have the latter and if you do, the former is a nice benefit for employees who aren’t yet parents but may want to be.

        2. Kyrielle*

          Thank you. Yes, I am rethinking my position on this – I saw it through the lens of “many tech companies want ideal workers” and thus mommy-hood is discouraged – as another way to discourage it. (And of course, I’m married and a mother, so I see it through the lens of “why would I have wanted to do that”? – when, of course, I’m probably not the target person for this benefit!)

          I didn’t think of it embedded in a context otherwise supportive of families. In that context, and especially if women who want children now and are in a position (personally / home life) to have them aren’t encouraged to defer, it’s a really nice benefit.

      2. Jady*

        This is all of my thoughts exactly.

        The entire move seems to be a way to encourage women to not have children. They are legally required not to discriminate against women, so they want to eliminate the potential downsides of having female employers.

      3. Cucumber*

        There are also benefits for those who choose to have a child later in life, reporting for instance, more confidence in their parenting abilities; those who put off marriage until their late twenties or older, or who are college educated before getting married, divorce in lower numbers (which is a net benefit for their kids).

        Have you seen the research indicating that older mothers may be statistically more likely to live longer? In other words, the opposite of your thesis? The study didn’t look at women using IVF, or parse out women with PCOS (who often have a better chance of getting pregnant later in life, but have other risk factors), though, but here’s an article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/06/25/silver-lining-for-some-older-moms/ – unfortunately a scientist quoted also suggests Halle Berry is a typical late in life mother, without indicating that many over-40 moms in Hollywood use frozen or donor eggs.

        My first thought was that, statistically it might not be true that the younger parents are, the more likely they’ll live to see their children grow up. For instance, it might be that when you reach a certain age, you age out of certain risk factors that could cause you to die of something other than natural causes. For instance, if you’re a 32 year old man, you might be less likely to die in an auto accident than a 22 year old man. You might postpone childbirth a few years because you have a higher socioeconomic status, and that might have some other benefits with it – greater access to prenatal care, greater access to health insurance or providers, more financial stability overall, which might correlate to increased health.

        I would have loved to have had my first child when I was younger, but it just wasn’t in the cards; by the same token, a friend of mine had her first child before she was 20, and rues the impact on her career. If more people discuss actual reproductive, and career realities – without judging each other or jumping to conclusions – this decision by Facebook and Apple may be good for everyone.

    10. Sunflower*

      I’d like to hear input from their current employees. I’m more curious if this was just something Apple and Facebook saw as a growing trend so they wanted to jump on it or if employees have complained about leave/working mother policies and this was the solution. I don’t know a lot about either of these companies workplace perks but what are their current benefits like? I’m aware of the more quirky ones but do they have unlimited time off policies(or are they work places that have them but don’t let people actually use them)

      I can only speak from my position in life. I’m 26 and no where close to meeting someone I am ready to settle down with. My main concern, as far as having a family is concerned is, ‘when i’m ready, will I be able to?’. Someone else my age might want to have children, but can’t because they can’t afford to take the time off from work. This perk speaks to us in two totally different ways. For me, I would see it as a perk. Someone else might see it as a non-solution solution.

      1. Anx*

        That is also my concern. I always thought, naively, that I’d work for 5-10 years, get married and have children, go part-time or some other situation where I could raise a family, and then go back to work.

        But now that I’ve seen so many smart, competent mothers of my peers struggle to reenter the workforce at the ripe old age of 55…and have spent 6 of those 10 years trying to get my first career track job and failing, I’m silently panicking that I can’t have both.

        Anything that would take the pressure off of ‘pregnant by 35’ would probably help me.

    11. Cat*

      I think were it just egg freezing, that would potentially lead to the pressure you describe. However, from what I’ve seen, this is actually more like that they’re adding more fertility coverage to their benefits package. I think that’s a good thing and isn’t particularly likely to lad to pressure.

    12. AndersonDarling*

      Bottom line-> Why is later better than now? I’m guessing the idea is that you are starting a career and you need to wait until you are a director to have a baby. So you should wait until you have more commitments and responsibilities in the workplace, then you should have a baby?
      It makes no sense to me.
      The impression I get is that these companies don’t want you having a baby while you are young, and you should wait until it is unlikely that you will have a successful pregnancy.
      (Sorry, that sounds like a conspiracy theory.) It would have made more sense to have on-site daycare.

      1. Cat*

        If you think about it as part of your health benefits, it’s a totally different thing. Some employees aren’t in a position to have a baby yet for reasons completely unrelated to work and could really use this. The same way they could really use any part of the health plan for reasons unrelated to work. (A company offering coverage for broken bones isn’t saying it doesn’t matter if you break your bones at work; suck it up and use the health plan.)

        If they’re pressuring employees not to have babies, that’s an entirely different issue.

      3. Cucumber*

        Can you quantify your assumption that waiting makes the chance of a successful pregnancy unlikely?

        Yes, older mothers’ risk factors can go up, for things like pre-eclampsia and gestational diabetes. That does not mean that it is *unlikely* for the pregnancy to succeed.

        And, if you’re freezing eggs at an age when you’re younger, or using younger donor eggs, a lot of those risks go down – for instance, chromosomal abnormalities are less likely for a middle-aged mother using frozen eggs from her youth, than if she was using existing, older eggs that were not frozen.

    13. Joey*

      It’s Sort of a statement that the company is número uno and family should wait. it’s sort of hypocritical to do that unless they also provide realistic leave benefits related to childbirth.

    14. LBK*

      Maybe I’m naïve but I took it at face value. I can see how it can be read as “great, now you can stay here and work for us and worry about that whole baby thing some other time,” but I think it was just intended to be a great, unique benefit for people who want it. No one is being FORCED to have their eggs frozen.

        1. Anonsie*

          Oh none at all. These types of companies are all about the weird novelty benefits, and I’m sure that plays a big role here. I highly doubt the fact that this announcement coming out now and egg freezing has been a bit of a buzz recently is a coincidence.

          But hey, I would really really love to be able to do this myself, but it’s cost prohibitive for me. I’d be thrilled if they offered this where I work.

          1. Joey*

            It’s equally for show. Sort of like all other benefits or perks that sound really cool and progressive that very few employees actually utilize. Unlimited days off comes to mind.

    16. Anonsie*

      I find this significantly less offensive than everyone else seems to– my only questions were 1) what childcare (even just FSA) or other dependent benefits do they already offer, 2) what types of maternity/paternity leave options do they have, and 3) do their insurance policies already include good coverage for fertility treatments, maternity care, etc?

      Because if it’s the only thing they’re doing, yeah, that’s weird, and I can see how people would say it supports the kids-OR-career attitude that we don’t need more of.

      But I kind of doubt that’s the case, and I think there’s no downside to offering more different options to people in terms of their health and family planning.

      2. LBK*

        Also – I don’t see how this could be construed as sinister but offering to pay for birth control isn’t. Couldn’t that also be taken as “we don’t want you to have children now while you’re working for us”?

        1. Natalie*

          I think that’s a little different because birth control is usually just a part of your health insurance. In most companies (fundies excepted) I can’t imagine the specifics of birth control coverage are driving their health plan decisions.

          (There are also off-label uses for birth control.)

          1. Cat*

            So think of this as covering fertility treatments under the health care plan (I understand that in the case of these plans, other fertility treatments are covered).

            1. Natalie*

              From what I understand, though, it’s fairly rare for health insurance to cover fertility treatment, as it’s considered elective. If this was just something they added to the health plan along with other fertility coverage, than yes, mentally I’d put it in the same category as bc.

              1. Cat*

                I think it was though; it’s just the only part of it’s that getting coverage but they do cover other fertility treatments.

    17. Nerdling*

      A friend of mine who struggled with infertility and has gone through IVF really changed my perspective on this. Initially, I was extremely cynical, seeing it as a way to get more work out of women when they’d really rather be creating more of a work-life balance and having children earlier. But my friend pointed out that this can be seen as a big step in the right direction toward companies having benefits that cover IVF and other infertility options.

      I’d like to see this being offered hand-in-hand with really good parental leave and childcare coverage. But I’ll also take baby steps.

    18. INTP*

      I don’t think that it will become an expectation right away, but if a lot of women do utilize this perk, it will become expected over time. Kind of like how it’s currently not viewed favorably if you choose to have a baby in school (even graduate school, med school, etc) or the first couple of years of your career. Most women are willing to wait longer than that, so it sticks out if you won’t.

      1. Cat*

        Huh, this hasn’t been my experience as a lawyer – many of the women I know had babies in law school or in their first couple of years at big firms (often in order to take advantage of the 6 month paid maternity leave at those firms) – and it was accepted and often encouraged. Which is not to say there’s not many inequities in the legal profession’s treatment of women, many of them related to its treatment of mothers, just that that particular one hasn’t been my experience.

    19. JoAnna*

      I think it sets a bad precedent. If a working mom asks for a flexible schedule or some other accommodation, the response (from Apple/Facebook HR) could very well be, essentially, “Well, if you had just frozen your eggs instead of having kids when you did, you wouldn’t need accommodations. Sucks to be you.”

      1. Cat*

        I think the better way to say it is it creates the possibility of a bad precedent. If someone does that, it’s horrible; if the company allows that to happen, they’re doing a bad job. However, giving people the benefit and not allowing that to happen (by creating a culture where it won’t and not tolerating managers who try it) does a good thing for women without realizing the bad possible effects.

    20. Mister Pickle*

      Oh, so they’ll pay to freeze a woman’s eggs, but if a man wants to store away his sperm, he’s got to pay for that himself?

      (kidding!)

      Actually – something like this was a plot-point in Robert Heinlein’s 1963 novel Podkayne of Mars. It was handled with the kind of sensitivity you’d expect from Heinlein.

      1. Cucumber*

        Just imagine how the topic would have been covered if he’d written it in his “later” period. Eew.

    21. CAA*

      Several people have said that maternity/paternity leave would be a more important benefit. Both Apple and Facebook are headquartered in California, where we do have paid family leave, and these companies already exceed the state law by offering more pay and longer leaves than required. Also, this benefit is available to male employees who can cover their spouses.

      The reality is we have a hot job market in tech, and there’s a lot of competition for top talent. Offering a benefit that nobody else has can make a difference.

  2. Penny*

    I’m still new to my office job (less than six months) so I’m not sure if this is me being a gullible new worker or if my co-workers took a joke too far.

    I returned to my office on a Monday and went about my usual morning routine. As I went to put my lunch in the fridge, I glimpsed a co-worker’s door at the end of the hall, covered in some kind of bright yellow tape. I didn’t think much of it because many others decorations on their door. When I returned to my own office, which I share with a co-worker who is even newer than me, I opened my email to see that a link to a press conference article had been sent to my entire department/floor.

    It read that there had been a murder in our building, on our very floor, over the weekend. There were some details about it being a crime of passion between a cleaning woman and an unknown male, and to come forward with any information you might have. I asked my roommate to open her email and she read it. We both started wondering what the heck was going on and that was when I realized the door decoration I’d seen was actually police tape. We got really nervous and anxious, with my roommate saying she was on the verge of packing up and leaving for the day. A part of my brain argued that if there had been a murder of some kind, our entire floor would have been closed for the day but the article emailed to us made it seem so real. We decided to walk down and see what was going on.

    We nervously edged down there and could clearly see police tape on the door and an official looking note stating it was a crime scene. As we stood there looking completely freaked out, another co-worker came out of her office and laughed at us. She then explained it was a prank being played on a different co-worker who was returning that day from a long vacation. She poked her head into the ‘crime scene’ office and said to more co-workers standing inside that they’d scared us newbies.

    My roommate and I walked back to our office, neither finding the joke very funny. As the day wore on, it was clear that our department was split between those who thought the prank was funny and those who thought it went too far, especially since it freaked out the new people. The next day, those who had done the prank brought donuts in and sent out an email that was kind of an apology but basically just said ‘Sorry if you didn’t find it funny’.

    Now I’m all for pranks but I prefer the kind that have a clear GOTCHA moment. Rearrange all the furniture in an office, switch a screen saver or background picture to something silly, hide all the chairs; stuff like that. And we a friendly and fun office so I’m not surprised that they want to prank each other. they had even just decorated the office, I would have been fine with that. But the fake press conference article sent to the entire department, which looked pretty real to me, was a step too far. Plus we are a government office; others I know who work in government said that they could be fired for pulling this kind of prank. So was this joke too much or was I being too gullible?

    1. Malissa*

      That is an extreme prank! I do appreciate the attention to detail that went into it. But not having a a clown with knife through it being visible so that it was obviously a joke was the only detail they forgot. So yeah, I’d been creeped out too.

      1. Penny*

        See that I could have gotten behind! A stabbed clown sitting at the desk would have been funny, that would have made me laugh. Maybe that’s what I really didn’t like about it; the article was too realistic while a clown would have been over the top. Thanks for that!

    2. JMegan*

      Oh my gosh, that sounds awful. I hate pranks, for lots of reasons, but I can live with the “rearranging your office furniture” type if it’s clear that the prankee is actually enjoying it. But this…yeah, I would argue that it’s way too far, and potentially really upsetting for a lot of people.

      Not sure what you can actually do about it, other than take it as a data point about the culture of your new office, but I’m with you on the “completely inappropriate” side.

    4. The IT Manager*

      Hmmm … I am not a great fan of pranks, but I can see this as rather amusing. I don’t think the intent was mean spirited. I don’t think this it went too far, but I can’t help wondering if the fact you got pranked inadvertantly and laughed at (uncool) is coloring your view.

      OTOH I’m sorry if you didn’t find it funny is at most a back-handed apology.

      1. Penny*

        I’ve been on the end of pranks before and it doesn’t bother me. I don’t care about being laughed at (though I think my roommate definitely didn’t like that). I cared that I was freaked out enough to actually think something bad had happened in our office and that they still let us come in, something which could potentially happen seeing as they let us continue to come to work when there was a bedbug problem.

    5. Kelly L.*

      I vote too much. Part of my reason is that I know our cleaning dude–he’s my baseball-ranting buddy. If I came in and someone said he’d either committed murder or been murdered, I’d be incredibly upset. You don’t fuck with people’s emotions like that.

      1. WorkingMom*

        Or if the prank was intended for this one coworker coming back from vacation – send an email out to the whole group minus the target of the prank so everyone knows it’s a joke. Then hopefully when the target comes back and sees everything, the pranksters would be there for a quick “gotcha” moment, and not just let this person sit around all day thinking this might be real.

      2. Cat*

        Yeah, this is my problem with it. I think the fake police tape on someone’s office when they’re returning from vacation is actually hilarious however the way they’re doing it implies the lives of your cleaning people are worthless and that is icky.

        1. Anonathon*

          Yeah, that was my reaction too. I’m going to assume that no one would send out a fake press release about one of your co-workers dying … but it’s somehow okay if it’s someone from the cleaning staff? Not cool.

    6. Lily in NYC*

      I like pranks, so maybe I’m biased. I think this was slightly over the top, but not really something to get too upset about, especially since they seemed a bit remorseful. How did the person whose door had the crime scene tape react? Oh, now that I think about it, I don’t think they should have sent that email – that’s probably the only reason you didn’t realize it was a joke. I am in a quasi-governmental office and one of my favorite coworkers was fired for a prank that involved an email, so yes, it definitely could have backfired big time.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yeah, the email can get them in serious trouble, depending on where it ends up.

        A few years ago I worked for a government contractor, and as a joke, another employee made up a fake email saying we had got a contract. He made it look very official, and sent it to a couple of people as a joke. Unfortunately, they sent it to a couple more people, and they sent it to others, when it got to the newspapers (who were waiting for the news) and the DOE (Dept of Energy) and had their logo, it was no longer funny. He’d worked at the company for a long time and was considered a very valuable worker, but someone had to be punished, and he was quickly fired.

    7. Gwen*

      Both? I don’t think the prank/joke was appropriate for work, but it was pretty gullible to entertain the thought that there’d actually been a murder on your floor and everything was just continuing as normal while the crime scene was still open.

    8. Anna*

      Yeah, pranks can be fun, but like you said, there needs to be a clear GOTCHA moment. The fun part of pranks (if you’re a person who enjoys them) is that at the end everyone has a laugh. Freaking people out and then laughing at them is not fun.

    9. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Well, they apologized so they get that they went too far. I’d let it go.

      I like pranks more than some here, but the thing that’s grossest about this is the “ha ha, a cleaning lady, no one might know her and be genuinely upset” element to this.

      1. Penny*

        I’m not harboring a grudge or anything about the incident, I’ve definitely let it go. I will say that the apology was a very non-apologetic one, like they didn’t understand why people didn’t find it funny. And you’re totally right about the ‘unnamed cleaning lady’ element, didn’t care for that either.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          When I lived in Italy, a news show pranked one of their anchors by having her do a news piece in a 4-seater airplane. Unbeknownst to her, the pilot was really a stunt pilot and the prank was to convince the anchor that they were about to crash. He started flying all erratically and yelling how they were going down. She was so terrified, thinking she was about to die. Then he lands safely, and she gets off the plane to find her coworkers standing there laughing at her. I couldn’t believe how she just laughed it off; I thought it was so cruel. If someone did that to me I would get stabby. I also hate pranks where you get someone to think they won the lottery. So mean.

          1. Penny*

            OMG I absolutely hate flying already so if anyone had done that airplane prank to me, they would have had to deal with me screaming, cursing, and going full out panic attack. That would have been awful!

            Also my high school friends did do a money prank on me. They gave me a fake scratch off ticket for like $10,000. They stopped me just short of calling my mother thankfully. I was bummed but I was able to laugh that one off.

            1. Lily in NYC*

              You are more gracious than I am! I would be so pissed if someone pulled a money prank on me. I like stupid pranks – the slapstick humor type ones like short-sheeting a bed.

              1. Penny*

                This was my same group of friends who had me believing for a month that a friend was moving to Alaska (which I didn’t believe at first and only accepted when the friend got her parents to confirm it). They only let me believe the money thing for a few minutes. Any longer than that and I would have actually gotten mad.

          2. ThursdaysGeek*

            Yeah, I guess that makes it even more clear to me: pranks that involve death (like the original example too), job changes, or other events that really can affect our emotions are not appropriate.

            1. Lily in NYC*

              I’ve realized the same things as I read these comments – silly, harmless pranks = fun. The ones like you mention = no bueno.

          3. HMV*

            Yes. In my opinion, anything that would significantly change my life if the outcome were to come true is off limits.

      2. LCL*

        Ha ha. Women being killed by men is such a funny topic, and you didn’t get the joke?
        Seriously, I am surprised management didn’t impose some severe punishment to the people behind it. And no, it isn’t less offensive because a woman was behind the joke.

          1. Mephyle*

            Actually, cutting and pasting from Penny’s original post, a crime of passion between a cleaning woman and an unknown male.

          2. Penny*

            If it didn’t come across in my original post, the fake article said that the victim was a cleaning lady and she was killed by her lover. I don’t have the original email to give an exact quote but that was paraphrased what it said.

    10. Magda*

      Yeah…. I’ve worked with people whose sense of humor was like that, people I got along with very well in fact, so on some level I get it. But I think it was wrong to involve the whole office via e-mail, especially given that the prank revolves around workplace violence (and personally, I’m not wild about “a crime of passion between a cleaning woman and an unknown male” being part of the joke either).

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I don’t like pranks very much, but what strikes me is the apology, and the idea that you have no sense of humour for not finding it funny.

        1. Kelly L.*

          And it’s also not an obvious “pranking” day–you’re generally more suspicious of things if they happen on April 1 or maybe right on Halloween.

    12. Adam V*

      That one’s too much. Honestly, even the police tape is fine with me, but the department/floor-wide email was too much.

      At the very least, an email to everyone except the victim giving them a heads-up would be required, so everyone’s not freaking out for nothing, or relying on someone nearby to tell you “this is actually a joke”.

      1. Hous*

        Yeah, the email to everyone is what gets me. If your goal is really to prank the person who was on vacation, then you should make sure the rest of the office is aware of what’s happening, so you don’t get people like the OP who are caught in the crossfire. Sending an email to everyone but not telling everyone but the prankee what was going on is not really good prank etiquette. I don’t think the OP can really do anything about it, but that’s the part that bothers me most.

    13. Nina*

      I wouldn’t find that amusing at all. Sure, a prank can be all in good fun, but the thought of someone having been murdered/assaulted/stabbed/etc at my office for any reason would leave me feeling unsettled. I think they went too far.

    14. Traveler*

      And what if one of the workers there had actually experienced a murder at or close to work (or even in their personal life) and been affected by stuff like this in the past? This was pretty thoughtless.

      And that kind of Sorry Not Sorry apology where they apologize if you “didn’t find it funny” rather than, sorry we did something stupid and ill conceived… would make it worse for me. I would have lost some respect for the coworkers that did this, and I’m the type of person that enjoys the more harmless office pranks like balloons in offices.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Just my opinion but it’s too much. We are post WTC, post anthrax, this just isn’t that funny. In a government office? Really?
      Annndd they may have set the crime scene up on their own time, but it is definitely interrupting the work day of the others who work there. “Interrupting” is putting it mildly as you are saying this can be very disturbing for some people. I am not sure that taxpayers would think this was a good use of work time, as other workers are left to sort out what is going on here.

      They are lucky no one called the police to get follow up inputs. (warning: snark ahead) I think I would put it out there that I almost called the police station to verify the situation and what precautions should be taken. ( /snark ) Let the perps stew on what would have happened if I had actually reached the police station.

    17. Anon Accountant*

      I don’t find that funny either. A prank I’d like is along the lines of an episode from the show “Mama’s Family” where the neighbor offered her sponge cake and lifted the cake lid and there were kitchen sponges and no cake. That type of prank I’d find funny. Or how 1 of the partners got a rubber skeleton, put a baseball cap and dressed it fully, sat it in a chair in a conference room over a weekend and waited until Monday morning. We all got a good laugh when it was discovered- a fully dressed skeleton with a coffee cup in front of it sitting in a conference room chair.

      The prank they pulled? I think it’s in poor taste but hopefully they fully understand they went too far and it won’t happen again.

      1. Mister Pickle*

        Oh – this guy. Yeah. I saw something he did … I’ll append it when I find it … where he was pretending to torture some guy, Russian Mafia style, in an elevator, and people would walk in and freak out. Although the last guy rushed him and nearly kicked his ass.

    19. BB*

      What they should have done was at least tell the other co-workers that morning, who weren’t in on it, that there is a prank going around. It was all just bad planning.

    20. Mister Pickle*

      In my experience, there are an unfortunate number of people who think they have a great sense of humor – but in fact it’s not so great, and nothing shows it off more than when they pull a prank like this – you can almost imagine them saying “it’s gonna be epic! EPIC!” – but in fact it is not the knee-slapper they thought it would be, and are left going “gee, don’t you people have a sense of humor?!”

    21. Josie*

      I don’t like pranks, at all. I can deal with the ones that hide your pens or loosen the power cable to your computer, but I prefer pranks to be far away from me and the workplace.
      I took last April 1st off work since I coworkers who love that day, and I most certainly do not. The next day I had an assignment for a very strict higher up that had to be done by lunch so I came in early, and found that I had been pranked: they had swiched almost all the keys on my keyboard, and gotten the IT guy to log into my computer with an admin password to flip the screens upside down. Hilarious right? I had to get somone from IT to help me get the screens sorted out and get a new keyboard – it took almost an hour before I was able to get started on work. The higher up was not amused when she came to check on my progress, and I hadn’t even gotten started. They targeted me because apparently it’s being weak and a coward to hate April 1st and take the day off. Can’t wait for next year….

      1. Not So NewReader*

        And no one got written up? Messing with company property, messing with the computer system.. just wow.
        I supposed someone could say I am too serious. But to me there is nothing funny here at all. Any time someone messes with my work or work station and causes me problems with my job. that is on a par with messing with my paycheck. People that mess with other people’s ability to earn a living are not funny. At all.

        1. Josie*

          Nope, no one got so much as a talking to. They couldn’t understand why I didn’t find it funny either. I ended up having to work through lunch with the higher up standing next to me trying to get everything done in time for shipping. Which got me some snippy comments from the pranksters about not eating lunch with them.

          I agree with you about messing with someone’s ability to do their job, it’s taking things too far.

      2. Mister Pickle*

        Yeah, not really funny. Although it may not have been so much that they targeted you for disliking April 1st as they targeted you because you weren’t there?

        I confess I once pranked someone who’d received a new model computer by swapping the “insert” and “delete” keys. He was baffled for about 5 minutes, then he figured it out, walked over to my office, stuck his head in the door and said “Pickle, you a**hole!” We had a laugh together. I like to think that as pranks go, that one was just about right.

        (I could be wrong)

        1. Josie*

          One of the main guys behind the prank told me afterwards that they did target me because I don’t like April 1st. He also didn’t understand why I couldn’t just laugh about it, after all, he thought it was funny.

          Had they switch only two keys, it would have been different (they actually did that the week after). But the nearly all of them?

    22. Perspective*

      Reading this, I didn’t identify with the office workers who thought there had been a murder in their building, I identified with the cleaning woman. I have never worked in an office, but I have cleaned large buildings after hours. Imagine that, working all alone at night in a huge, empty building, and then having a jealous ex or boyfriend show up and corner you in one of the offices and murder you. That is CHILLING, and that’s the story they wanted to prank someone with, the “joke” being “haha something weird happened in your office”. They just assumed that the coworker would think about themselves and not the victim, like the expected reaction was that the prankee would feel unsettled and surprised by a crazy event in their office. The pranksters apparently didn’t expect that people could empathize with the victim and be absolutely horrified (and also feel unsafe about the building’s security).

  3. a.n.o.n.*

    Interesting development: the company I was trying so hard to get into over the past 8 months has contacted me again. This is the fourth time! But this time it sounds like the job is truly what I’m looking for. And it’s not the same one I turned down last year. I’ll be meeting with someone from the company next week to discuss further.

    A couple months ago, after thinking it was a sure thing and then being told it’s the same job I turned down last year and, “oh we don’t have an open position after all,” I concluded that it wasn’t meant to be and maybe I’m better off. But now it’s got me thinking all over again. I’m miserable at the current job and I would be back working for a tiny company, I’d wear many hats again, and I’d actually have some authority. Things are more casual and flexible, too.

    The hurdle? It’s further away that the job I’m at now. My current job is 43 miles one way. The new one would be 73 miles one way and I would have to drive through a very congested area, which would prolong the commute. I can’t take the train due to the location of my house; very cost-prohibitive and my commute would be 2 hours one way. I could leave extra early, but there still tends to be traffic even that early. I’m guessing I could try to negotiate a couple work-at-home days per week. Or maybe a small allowance for travel.

    Any ideas about how to overcome this hurdle? And am I crazy for considering this company again?

    1. Wilton Businessman*

      I did a long commute for 5 years. It will kill you. Once you establish yourself at the new place, set a date when you will move. Then every day you can say to yourself that this 7734 is only temporary. The only time that I could deal with it was when I put in place a plan to move within 2 years.

      1. A.n.o.n.*

        Actually I just moved within the last few months so that’s out of the question. I’ve found my forever house and I’m staying. This company seems pretty flexible so I’m going to try to see if I can work from home a bit. We’ll see what happens.

        1. Wilton Businessman*

          OK. Hope you’re a better person that I was. The last year I left my house at 4:50am every morning just to avoid traffic and got home at 7pm.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Two hours one way? And presumably worse sometimes? That’s 4+ hours in the car a day. There are more jobs out there than this one and the one you’re currently in. You don’t have to pick between just these two.

          2. Craigrs1*

            I am not disagreeing with you, but I find the flip of opinion kind of interesting. Two hours one way? No. There are other jobs out there. Forget it. Oh wait – you meant one hour each way? No big deal. Nevermind.

            Obviously there’s a big difference between a one hour and a two hour commute, but I don’t think the difference is quite that big . . .

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              To me, one hour isn’t outrageous; many D.C. commutes end up being one hour pretty regularly because of traffic. But two hours one way is four hours a day in a car, or 1/4 of your waking time. That seems really excessive to me. But of course different people will draw the line differently.

        2. danr*

          That’s without accidents and bad weather. I did a 70 mile one way commute by car for years. It wasn’t bad in the beginning and I found mass transit for bad weather days and bad accidents at the choke point in my commute. I gave up going by car after the commute stretched from an hour and a half to 2 – 3 hours due to traffic and daily accidents. It was easier to take the train. And for us, moving closer was not an option since my job wasn’t the big money job. On one hand, commuting by car meant that I had plenty of time to listen to the news and plan my day. On the other, I was very tired during the week and it got worse as the commute got longer in time.
          You have to think about this stuff and decide if it’s worth it.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I’d give anything to be able to take a train and not drive every morning. Everybody drives like an idiot or a maniac. I got spoiled by the ease of public transit on holiday, even at peak time and even with delays and reroutes. I miss the tube. And the bus, believe it or not.

            1. the gold digger*

              I miss the bus, too. I have to drive to my new job because the bus route is really incompatible with my hours. I am a little resentful about having lost 90 minutes of reading time a day.

          1. A.n.o.n.*

            That’s without traffic. Depending when I leave it would obviously be more than that. Haven’t driven it so I can’t say for sure yet.

          2. Dan*

            I was going to ask the same.

            You can do 45 miles in 45 minutes if you have 60 miles an hour. Which means you live and work near the freeway in an uncongested area. Doable without losing sanity.

            73 miles? You’re at an hour and fifteen minutes with no traffic. Congestion is going to add 15 minutes at a minimum, and more if the congestion is “clogged freeway” or “city traffic.

            In the DC area, a 73 mile commute would be driving on I66 from I81 to the DC line. I can’t imagine doing that every day. And if I worked smack in the middle of the city, that would drive my commute time way up for a negligible increase in mileage.

            Given what the OP describes, I think they’re looking at a commute that is pushing 1:45 each way.

            1. Karowen*

              To be fair, I live in an area where the speed limit is 70 and I have a massive lead foot, so I’m going 80. I can definitely do 73 miles in an hour, and that’s including getting to and from the highway.

              It definitely doesn’t account for congestion, though (I go against traffic), but maybe if you leave early enough you could avoid it.

              1. Meg*

                I live in the Raleigh-Durham area, and our freeways are also 70 mph. I live on one side of Raleigh, and live in the other. A distance of 20 miles. In the morning, it takes easily an hour to get to work via the freeway, and that’s assuming there’s zero accidents. Of course, that’s not going to happen. So I end up going THROUGH downtown Raleigh, speed limits between 35 and 55mph the whole time, and it takes 45 minutes.

                If I leave work by 4:30pm, I can take the freeway and be home in 25 minutes. If I leave between 5 and 6pm, it takes 45-60 minutes to get home.

                Drive your route a couple times, and check out the Waze app to divert you around traffic. Wake County (where Raleigh-Durham area is located) just reached 1 million residents, and accidents are daily. It’s gotten so bad that children are being hit by cars waiting for school buses in the morning, but that’s a different story.

                Drive the route, check out the congestion, and see if that’s something you can see yourself doing multiple times a week, or daily if they don’t let you work from home.

          3. danr*

            I’m sure the whole trip isn’t in a congested area. If it is… forget the drive and take the train. Also, keep tabs on driving costs against train costs. I quit driving when it was cheaper to take the train and the time differential was nearly equal.

            1. A.n.o.n.*

              No its not. Just a specific area. The first 45 minutes would be no traffic at all. The last leg is where the traffic would be.

    3. JB*

      That commute would kill me. I’d never consider it unless I was desperate. But other people like to use driving time to listen to books on tape or call friends/family to catch up, so it doesn’t have to be a deal-killer.

      If you like spending time in your car, then I’d say at least talk to the person to see what’s different this time, or if nothing is different and maybe you should steer clear.

      1. Stephanie*

        But even then, that amount of driving will wear most cars down fast. Plus the gas costs! (Unless he has a diesel, but diesel fuel costs a small fortune as well.) Also, think of what would happen if there’s an accident–that two-hour commute will turn into four hours. I live in an exurb now and can make it from downtown to home in about 45 minutes…if there’s no traffic (traffic is light here, anyway). If there’s a major accident, I’m screwed and usually end up going to a coffee shop or something to wait the accident out.

        1. danr*

          My cars did better with the long commute than going back and forth to the train station. I regularly got over 200,000 miles on a car before repairs got too expensive. These were American station wagons with moderate gas mileage. I wanted to be in something that the truckers could see.

          1. Stephanie*

            That’s true. With my car, it’s usually the most efficient (fuel-wise) between 45-70 mph. Over 75 mph, the gas efficiency starts declining (I have a five-cylinder hatchback, so it’s not exactly designed for high-speed performance).

            I was more thinking from a routine maintenance standpoint. Even if the car’s in great mechanical condition, there’s still things like oil changes (which he would probably be doing monthly with that much driving), tire replacement, brake pad replacement and so on. His insurance may increase as well depending on whatever actuarial tables his insurance company is using. I was thinking of the car costs more in terms of those things.

          2. Dan*

            I junked my last car at 135,000 miles. I had it for 12 years, so couldn’t complain too much.

            At 150 miles r/t a day, the OP is going to put 200,000 miles on the car in 5 years. With that kind of use, the OP should just budget for a perpetual car payment on top of gas and repairs.

    5. Stephanie*

      I had coworkers in DC who commuted insane distances (but via commuter rail, usually) from God-knows-where Virginia and Maryland. Even with the train taking up a chunk of their commutes, they looked miserable. Don’t do it! If you really need or want the job, maybe look into renting a crash pad for the work week?

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        My first job out of college was in Northern Virginia, and I was still living in Maryland with my parents. Found an apartment that wasn’t available for 6 weeks. I had no choice but to drive, and it absolutely wrecked me– could be 45 minutes OR 2 hours each way, and there was no way to know until I was already in the car. I was only 22 and already completely stressed out and miserable. Then I moved to Northern Virginia, and the commute was STILL horrible. Good suggestions, and I hope the OP reaallllllly thinks about this one.

        1. Stephanie*

          I worked in Alexandria and had coworkers who lived in Baltimore, Southern Maryland (like…by the Naval Warfare Station) and Richmond. I think in all those instances, they had spouses whose jobs were in those places (plus, we worked in an expensive area). But they definitely showed up to work with these thousand-yard stares after their commutes (“I left my house at 4:45 this morning…”)

          1. Dan*

            My old boss used to commute from somewhere near college park to Dulles every day. His peer came from Camp Springs (Andrews AFB) and claimed that living in Virginia was for the devil.

            1. Lily in NYC*

              College Park to Dulles – isn’t that only about 40 miles? I used to have to drive to Dulles from College Park (not as my commute) and don’t remember it taking more than an hour- more like 50 minutes. But I guess it’s a lot longer with awful DC rush hour traffic. When I worked in DC (close to the White House), my boss drove up from Richmond every day. I thought that was insane.

              1. Dan*

                The beltway regularly gets reviewed as the most congested road in the country. It once took me 2 hours to drive from Dulles to BWI during rush hour.

                Also keep in mind that the DC area is a growing region, so rush hour traffic is a lot different now than what it was even ten years ago.

                It used to be that driving from Dulles into the city via the toll road and 66 in the evening was considered a traffic-free reverse commute. Not any more. The stretch from Tysons Corner into the city is now a parking lot during evening rush.

                1. Lily in NYC*

                  Yeah, I left in 2001 and I imagine it’s worse now. Which seems inconceivable because it was so bad back then!

                2. Aunt Vixen*

                  I was at BWI when my flight was cancelled and the only way to get me halfway to my destination that evening was to put me on a plane out of Dulles instead. The airline was going to have me driven there in a taxi. This happened at 6pm at BWI and the Dulles flight was at 9pm, and I was genuinely not sure if I’d make it.

                  Our Nation’s Capital is a whole different place now than it was even ten years ago.

            2. Stephanie*

              I’m just getting twitchy thinking about commuting from College Park to Dulles daily, even if part of it is reverse commuting. I’ll look for this in a bit, but there was a story in the Washington Post about people abusing the free portion of 267 by stopping to buy a pack of gum at the airport (or something equally trivial).

              Also, I used to live in Camp Springs (briefly). That is not better than living in Virginia. He might have argument if it was one of the nicer parts of PG County, but Camp Springs? No. Especially if he was living in close proximity of Rte. 5.

              1. Dan*

                One man’s “abuse” is another man’s “patronizing the airport gas station is legally accepted as airport business, and therefore a proper reason to use the free portion of the airport access road and skip paying the tolls.”

                1. Stephanie*

                  I see you’re an expert at this.

                  Here’s the article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/15/AR2008061502136.html

                  1. Harpers Ferry, WV to Alexandria?! *eye twitch*
                  2. “‘The Washington area commuter is by far the most ingenious,’ Homer said. ‘They use loopholes, inflatable dolls . . . they get into cars with complete strangers and go west to go east. They do what they have to do to survive.'”
                  3. “‘They spend 26 cents and they ask for a receipt. I don’t know why,’ said Tigi Zewdie, a cashier at the On the Run convenience store attached to the Exxon.”

                  And a follow-up: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2013/11/13/airport-wants-drivers-to-stop-dodging-the-dulles-toll-road/

          2. KellyK*

            Yeah, I live in Southern MD, and there are a fair number of people who commute from here to DC. I know pay is higher there and property values are lower here, but I don’t think you could pay me enough to spend that much time in my car. Especially not if the Beltway’s involved. There is a commuter bus that goes up to the Metro station, although I’m sure that takes a bit longer than driving. (If you drive directly to Branch Avenue, the closest metro station, the only available parking is the reserved spots, and I’ve heard the waiting list for those is a matter of *years.*)

            1. The Barb*

              My friend’s husband commutes from Southern MD (near Prince Frederick) to Ft. Meade. Insanity.

          3. Rat Racer*

            My first job out of grad school was in DC and I was living in Baltimore (newly married and husband’s job was North of Baltimore). After 6 weeks of trying to commute on the MARC train, which broke down or was delayed at least once a week, I gave up. Took a $15K pay cut and found a job in Baltimore. Life is too short.

            1. Natalie*

              Huh, I had a friend who commuted by MARC for years and never mentioned recurring issues. He loved reading on the train or getting a jump start on work so he could leave early. I used to take it alternating weekends to visit my then boyfriend.

              Maybe they upgraded the line or something.

        2. Meg*

          You couldn’t pay me enough to drive from Gaithersburg to Bethesda in the mornings. I-270 was terrible. Thank god for the Red Line.

          1. Dan*

            You mean the thing that seems to be the most unreliable line on the metro system?

            Man, your stretch is bad and you don’t even touch the beltway.

      2. Mister Pickle*

        The DC area in general … I will beg spare change and sell my blood and live in a cardboard box in LA before I will ever move back there for a job or True Love or anything.

        Been there. Done that. Did not like.

        1. Dan*

          I couldn’t get enough change nor enough money for my blood. I left LA and ended up back in DC.

          Granted, I was no fan of the Valley either.

    6. ella*

      Could you ask about flexible work hours? Maybe come in after the worst of the rush hour, rather than before. Of course, that depends on whether they’re okay with you staying late in the office, whether you have family/kids that need your time in the evening, etc etc.

      1. A.n.o.n.*

        I’d much rather come in early and leave early if they’ll allow it. Something I just thought of is I know someone that commutes in that direction. She’s near my current job but I’d have to drive this way anyway. I could ask about carpooling.

        1. KerryOwl*

          Yeah, I had a ~90 minute commute for a while. I did carpool with someone; generally, in the morning whomever wasn’t driving was napping. I ended up really liking the guy and we became friends, which made it more bearable, but I still wouldn’t have done it for more than a year. It’s like I can feel my life getting shorter.

          On the other hand, I was only at that company for four months. He worked there for years before me and years after me. He complained, but he still did it forever.

          I recommend a subscription to Audible. Or listening to a lot of podcasts, if that’s your bag. The time seems less “wasted” (to me, anyway) if I feel as though I’m “accomplishing” something. Still, that kind of commute is brutal.

          1. A.n.o.n.*

            I agree. Making more money than I make now, having more flexibility and enjoying my work would be the three things that would make this a good trade off for me. If i were to get some of these things then that might be unacceptable. I don’t know. I was going to tell the guy upfront that the commute might be a deal breaker but now I think I should hear him out. It might not be a deal breaker.

    7. Julia*

      I did a commute like that for just three months and it was awful. When you add your travel time to your hours spent at work, you have no down time at all. Not worth it.

      1. Manager Anonymous*

        I had an hour and 1/2 commute each way public transportation for 15 years. My job was worth it. (NYC…so there was no moving closer $) Podcasts and Books on Tape made it doable.

    8. Anon Accountant*

      That sounds really draining on top of a long workday. What if you have to work 12-hour workdays during a busy time at work?

      I understand being unhappy at your job but are there other companies you’d be willing to consider? Do you live in an area where winter weather may be an issue that would prolong the commute?

    9. LibKae*

      I think you’ll find it depends entirely on the job. I had a 1-1.5 hour commute each way for a job a few years ago, and since I hated the job to begin with, the commute meant that I was a ball of rage by the time I got home at night. My current job is about the same on a good day (I’m one of the Maryland-to-Virginia commuters people have talked about up-thread), but I love the job, so I don’t mind it at all. The commute has actually turned into a relaxing part of my day — I put on a audiobook, turn off my brain, and just drive. It gives me a chance for some downtime before I get home.

    10. MissLibby*

      I have an 83 mile commute, each way. I spend 3 hours a day in the car and have been doing it for 6 years. I commute from a rural area into the fringe of a metro area, so traffic is non-existent except for school buses and tractors and combines during certain times of the year. That helps a lot – I have a long drive, but it is an easy drive. It has just become part of my daily routine.

      I never planned to do this commute long-term, but I started in 2008, which pretty much quickly eliminated any possibility of my husband finding a job close to where I work for several years. Fast forward 6 years, he has that much more seniority and time invested in his pension (he has a union, government job) and my kids are now in middle school and high school so moving would be much more difficult on my family at this time. I continue to drive because there are very few job opportunities in the small town that I live in and because I really like my job and get paid well for what I do. If I am still working here when my kids leave for college, I will probably look for an apartment to stay in during the week.

      That was a lot of background info, but the point is that the commute should not be your only consideration. While I don’t particularly enjoy spending an extra 3 hours a day away from my family there are other benefits. Like most things in life, it is a trade-off. You just have to weigh your options and make a decision on what will be best for you.

      1. A.n.o.n.*

        I agree. Making more money than I make now, having more flexibility and enjoying my work would be the three things that would make this a good trade off for me. If i were to get some of these things then that might be unacceptable. I don’t know. I was going to tell the guy upfront that the commute might be a deal breaker but now I think I should hear him out. It might not be a deal breaker.

    11. Audiophile*

      I feel like the only person who’s unfazed by this. I currently commute for 35 miles one way to work, so 70+ miles a day. I briefly worked at a job in NYC, which meant I took the train for 80-90 minutes. Everyone at the job was stunned that it took me that long, they had no concept of the suburbs. I didn’t mind the long train commute, it was so much more relaxing than driving. Even the subway, which involved a transfer between two lines, didn’t bother me all that much.

      I don’t think I could drive 73 miles, but if you have a new-ish car, you should be ok, the max I would do would be 50 miles one way. My 35 mile commute typically takes me 40 minutes give or take. It’s longer if there’s any kind of accident. The other day, because of an accident it took me 6o minutes. The worst it’s ever been was 4 hours, but that was because of an unexpected snow fall.

      See what happens with the interview and see what you can negotiate. Good luck!

    12. C Average*

      I used to live in my dream apartment in a hip part of the city. I commuted at least an hour each way (by either car or train). I basically slept in and wrote a monthly check for my dream apartment.

      After two years of this, I moved to a decidedly un-hip apartment in a dreary part of the ‘burbs a short distance from my workplace. I went into this arrangement fully anticipating that I’d hate it, that I’d miss my wonderful apartment and neighborhood, that I’d have lots of regrets.

      I had NO regrets, not one, ever. The quality-of-life bump I experienced by being a short walk from the office (and the money and automotive wear and tear I saved) more than offset the drop in awesomeness between one dwelling and another.

      I totally get being in love with where you live and not wanting to move (and I get that you’re talking about a house, which is obviously a much bigger commitment than a rental apartment), but demanding commute can reduce your dream home to a glorified crash pad.

      Think really hard about taking this job. And if you do decide it’s your dream job, think hard about whether moving is really and truly off the table. A forever home needs to be compatible with your forever job, or one of them’s not going to last.

  4. Karowen*

    I know that we’ve talked about professional vs. non-professional LinkedIn pictures and not having pictures on your resume, but what’s everyone’s verdict on a picture on your online portfolio? It’s for a marketing/writing portfolio, and it would be a professional picture (not me with dogs/kids), but I can’t figure out whether or not it’s okay!

    2. Blue_eyes*

      I think a professional picture on your online portfolio would be fine. Think about the pictures that journalists have next to their columns in print and online, or photos of authors on their books. Especially in the field of writing, it seems common to have a picture associated with your work.

    3. Karowen*

      Thank you both! That’s what I was thinking, but when my design-friend asked me my first thought was to freeze like a deer in headlights :)

    5. INTP*

      I think it’s fine. It sticks out on a resume because so few people do it. Most professionals who need to maintain a strong online presence, in my experience, have professionally taken pictures on all of their social media outlets at least. If I were looking at a writing portfolio online and there was a picture of the author on the website’s home page or header, it would not occur to me to find it strange or unprofessional.

    6. Mister Pickle*

      My LinkedIn profile has a picture of my daughter and me in a swimming pool. It also says I have a Doctorate from Miskatonic University in Arkham, Massachusetts. I don’t take LinkedIn very seriously.

      Someone from Amazon.com still tried to recruit me.

      1. AB Normal*

        I, on the other hand, treat my LinkedIn profile very seriously. The best jobs I got, including the current one, which has all sorts of perks, I got through LinkedIn contacts. You probably don’t need LinkedIn to help you advance your career, but I would NOT advise anyone to follow your approach. A professional picture and well designed profile are much more likely to get people to contact you.

        By the way, I got a contact from someone from Google once, but I also get weekly contacts from all sorts of headhunters with interesting jobs I’d love to interview for if I wasn’t happy in my current job (which I took less than a year ago).

        1. Mister Pickle*

          True. If I really relied upon LinkedIn, I might put up a more professional picture. Surprisingly (or not) no recruiter has ever been able to offer me better recompense than what I get at my current job.

          I don’t know whether to call this “lucky” or not, but if I were to be laid off at this point in time, I’d probably just consider it unofficial early retirement and maybe start a home business building bespoke steampunk electronic musical instruments or something like that.

      2. C Average*

        Mine has me in a running singlet emblazoned with my company’s logo. It’s decidedly un-serious. But I would never consider working for a different company, and my company is sports-oriented. The picture is authentic and appropriate to my career path, such that it is, but it would definitely scan as unprofessional to a recruiter!

  5. Circumpolar*

    I am a supervising attorney responsible for hiring lawyers, investigators and support staff. After all the criticism of a law career from yesterday, I feel I must chime in about the practice of law, and the rumored glut of well- qualified yet unemployed lawyers. First, don’t go to law school if you want a legal job that pays well. Go because law is a calling. Go because it’s all you wanted to do since you were six. Go because you want to change the world. You probably won’t change the world, but you will make your corner of it more just and fair. As a side benefit, eventually you will make a very comfortable living.
    When I raised my hand at my first swearing in, 18 years ago, I teared up at the honor of joining the ranks of lawyers throughout history, many unknown now, who fought against slavery, child labor, suppression of speech and press, discrimination against minorities, women, state’s mockeries of the right to a fair trial, etc. THIS is what lawyers do. THIS is the power your law license gives you. Use it wisely.
    Are the hours long? Yes, sometimes. Dedication to your work and the greater cause it serves sometimes requires sacrifice. And, just when I think I’m too old for an all nighter, I blast music at my office all night as I write, (like cramming in college) and feel 30 again. Then, when the music stops and I collapse in exhaustion, I take a week off. It all balances out. People even have families, too. Through it all– the travel, sleeping on floors, long hours, general chaos–I know my work and my life have purpose and meaning.
    As to the glut of lawyers, a couple things: I see an attorney with a ton of debt as an attorney with poor judgment. Sorry. Some lawyers I know did Ivy schools, but their families could afford to support them. Good for them. Despite being accepted into Prestige Law School, I went to as low rent, and low ranked I could find. I knew what I wanted, and I knew I couldn’t count on big money coming out of school, so I didn’t incur unmanageable debt. We all take the same Bar exam, and nobody cares where you went to school after you’ve practiced a year. That differs if you value a career on Wall Street or something. If so, then you’ll probably do fine in that world. Know what you want to do and plan accordingly. A failure to adequately plan your legal education does not bode well for your ability to strategize your cases. If you have a lot of debt, it’s probably best for your career if you keep that to yourself.
    Second, the unemployed and underemployed lawyers I see don’t make it past the first cut. Why? They lack that spark– the drive and internal motivation that differentiates between the job-seeker and the lawyer who wants to do consequential work. If, say, you are living in your parents’ basement for lack of work, that’s understandable. What’s bewildering is why you’re not practicing law. With a computer and a phone, a lawyer can file documents, accept payment for services, and take CLEs. Add a suit and public transit or a used car, and you have a law practice. Take court appointments and clients who can’t pay. They’ll pay you the second time they need you. Go to court and shine. You’ll get a reputation, maybe more court appointments. Pretty soon, you’ll have a practice, albeit small. More importantly, when you interview for a steady paycheck you can say “I opened a practice the day I was sworn in. I took these clients because I believe in the rights guaranteed by Gideon.” Dedication and commitment in two sentences. It also applies to any type of law you want to break in to. Experience working with underserved populations and cultures different from your own are inherently valuable and an asset anywhere.
    I’ve carried on long enough. Stop reading about job searches. Go out there. Practice law. Change the world.

    1. JB*

      The legal field has changed a lot since you graduated. Even the low rent, low ranked schools charge and arm and a leg. Then because of the glut of lawyers, it’s very, very difficult to get a job when you graduate from a good school, much less get one that will pay off the student loans. Graduating from a low ranked school makes getting a decent paying job even more difficult. Not many people can go to law school these days without incurring unmanageable debt. What you’re saying sounds less like good advice and more like you don’t understand what current law students and graduates are facing.

      I do agree, though, that it doesn’t make a lot of sense for people to go to law school these days. But I don’t agree that you should only go if you see it as a calling. I think you should only go if you have a guaranteed well-paying job when you graduate or if you have a guaranteed free or nearly-free ride for all three years.

      2. Kat M*

        There is a point to the OP’s statement of going if you have a calling and a passion for it, as well as finding a way to make it work and doing whatever it takes to get clients and money from the start. I think the main points are as follows: A) It’s a rigorous field-not a field for someone who’s only hoping for the promise of money or who’s entering law school in order to put off “the real world”. B) You do have to be driven from the beginning and do what it takes to get your name out there. I’m not a lawyer myself but I’m noticing this among my peers who are lawyers or who have thought of law school (the current generation of law school grads).

        Also, to be fair, the OP did mention hiring and supervising lawyers. I hardly doubt this is a rose colored nostalgic, “Back in my day,” viewpoint.

        1. Senor Poncho*

          “Also, to be fair, the OP did mention hiring and supervising lawyers. I hardly doubt this is a rose colored nostalgic, ‘Back in my day,’ viewpoint.”

          one would think

    2. lawyer with a dimming spark*

      I am going to print this out and hide it in my drawer for those long nights at the office. Thank you for this!

    3. Molly*

      Honestly, though, the field was very, very different to enter 18 years ago. And I say this as someone who’s absolutely won the post-law-school lottery: I run a successful firm with two partners, we’re expanding regularly, and I work M-F, 9-4 with regular vacation time. My partners and I are incredibly lucky, as recent grads (2011 calls)–but our friends have not been. Many of my law-school friends are unemployed. Many of them hung out a shingle for lack of other opportunities and have not found clients. Many of them moved provinces to find jobs, leaving family and friends. Many of them have settled for document-review temping gigs, for soul-crushing work of various kinds, or have just gone back to school for something else.

      I always like to point out to kids who are considering law school because they’re smart that there are a million smart lawyers. There’s a limited and very in-demand number of smart law clerks, and they have five or six fewer years of tuition and delay before they start accruing experience and raises.

      1. lap_giraffe*

        I’ve long harbored the itch to practice law but I’d have to take out loans to pay for it (thankfully no undergrad loans, thanks mom and dad) and have always been dissuaded by all the negative press – too many lawyers, not enough jobs, debt debt debt, soul crushing life, etc. At 30 I’m reevaluating my career, though, and have an interview coming up with a small firm for an admin position. I imagine it’s less money than I make now, but I’m willing to take a cut to 1) cut out some mega expenses from my current job and 2) be closer to the actual practice of law to see if it’s something I should really jump after. I’d also really like the chance to be in an office and have a more “normal” life, have been doing sales on the road for years and am exhausted by it.

        Would be curious your thoughts about the idea, advice on what an admin’s life is like at a small firm, idea about what kind of salary range would be normal for a position like this in a large-enough US city, and anything else you’d like to share.

        1. Cucumber*

          Lap_Giraffe, you might consider the University of Houston law school. It has one of the best part-time programs in the country: tuition is about $26K a year, and it’s possible for people to work and take night classes. They have a fabulous people’s law workshop once a year for the public, and are highly ranked for public law, intellectual property and health law.

      2. Cleopatra Jones*

        Please don’t chalk your success up to…”I won the post-law-school lottery” or “My partners and I are incredibly lucky”. It undermines all of the hard work you and the firm’s partners have put into making your business a success. It seems like you are apologizing for being successful. Honestly, you should never apologize for success.

        I think better questions for me would be, what differentiates you from your unemployed lawyer friends? Did they go into extremely competitive areas of law? Are they unwilling to take on lawyer positions even if it’s in an area they don’t like? Do they think that having a JD automatically qualifies them for a job of their choosing?

        There has to be something.

        I hate when people say, ‘If I can do it then anyone can’ (or its equivalent) because that’s not really true. Being successful at anything takes a sh!tload of focus, discipline, and drive which many people just do.not.have.

        1. Senor Poncho*

          As someone who’s been practicing more or less since graduation and who makes decent enough money, I can honestly say that my success to date has been probably 90% luck (I’ll omit the details because the story isn’t much of a story). Now, I had to put myself in a position to get lucky, so to speak, and I think I’m pretty decent at my job, but, in my opinion, the nature of the beast these days is that luck is probably something close to a necessary-but-not-sufficient condition of a successful career in this field (and probably a lot of other fields too).

            2. Relosa*

              Right, but only about half of grads – in any discipline – have opportunity these days. CHANCE is heavily involved. You CAN affect your odds but not entirely by yourself.

              1. Felicia*

                +1. I am in a different field, and I worked hard before getting my job, still work hard, and am very good at what I do. But I still feel I was lucky to get a job in my field. Because many people (maybe more than half) who are graduating with degrees in the same field work just as hard, are just as good, do the internships, do everything they could possibly do, and they dont have a job in the field. I didnt have a job in the field for 2 years before I got lucky. I really dont do anything more or different , I work hard, but I recognize so do they.

      3. Dorothy*

        +1
        2007 law grad here — after the 2007-2008 economic debacle, it took me a long time to get where I’m at now. Things have changed a LOT in 18 years – unless you have someone else paying out of pocket for law school, you graduate with an average of $150k in debt, which is what I have. I can pay the necessities and I struggle with the loan payments, but I can’t imagine what else I would do other than practice law.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      Sorry, but things were way different 18 years ago. Nothing you wrote changes the fact that attorneys are not retiring at a rate fast enough to replace them with new graduates. What infuriates me the most about law school is how it’s almost a scam at so many places – how you will get a scolarship as long as you keep a “XX” average. What they don’t tell you is that they grade on a curve and only one or two people in the entire class will get that grade and be able to keep their scolarship. Everyone else is out of luck and the school rightly assumes that most of them will take out massive loans in order to finish. It’s such a scummy practice and while the very top schools don’t do it, plenty of otherwise respectable ones do, like Rutgers for example.
      I do agree that if you have a calling, then you should go for it. But only if you can get accepted into a top school.

    5. Dan*

      While I’m not a lawyer, I’ve looked at going to law school, and know a handful of ex-lawyers. (I know more ex-lawyers than any other profession. While this is partly a side effect of DC, I actually don’t really know that many other ex-anythings.)

      I’d also note that while the OP hires for *her practice*, her practice may not be representative of the market as a whole.

      In this day and age, I’d go to the best law school I could get into, no matter what the cost. I wouldn’t go to a low rent, low ranked school. OP’s practice might hire those grads, but there’s many places that won’t. And those schools aren’t cheap either.

      While I agree with the OP’s sentiment (don’t go to law school just to get rich!), because there’s many respectable jobs that don’t pay boku-bucks, the reality is that the economics of law have changed over the years.

      Just having a passion isn’t enough of a reason to get into law.

    6. Joey*

      how though can lawyers live with themselves for “practicing law” at the expense of morals and values. Oh I get it that you have a professional obligation to represent your client to the best of your ability. What I can’t get past (and I’m sure many others) is how can you live with yourself by making a career of looking for legal loopholes? Especially when a ton of people believe taking those loopholes is wrong and unethical.

      1. Reidi*

        It is difficult to respond in substance to such a broad critique of a profession as a whole, but I can’t help myself from trying. It is so disappointing to me that the legal profession is one against which people seem to think it is okay to levy personal attacks regarding the morality of the individual members. I am a lawyer who has practiced in the public and private sectors, handling both civil and criminal cases, and I know my colleagues to be smart, hard-working, dedicated, professionals who take very seriously the oath we swear upon entering the profession. The legal profession is also one in which pro bono service (including at the fancy Wall Street law firms) is highly encouraged and where it is not unusual for lawyers working in the private sector to donate many hours of their time to these pro bono efforts each year, which I believe is relatively rare among corporate jobs. Of course, litigation is an adversarial process, but I do not know a single lawyer who thinks of himself or herself as making a career out of looking for “legal loopholes.” Instead, they work to diligently and ethically to represent their clients’ interests within the confines of the law. Joey, perhaps you had a negative experience with an particular lawyer, leading to your negative view of attorneys in general. That is unfortunate, but I would encourage you to try not to let that experience color your view of the entire profession.

        2. Dan*

          I don’t believe in loopholes. Sure, there’s “unintended consequences” and things like that, but if the lawmakers were that interested in closing them, they would do so. Not my fault we have a dysfunctional government who can’t pass a law to save their life.

          Elsewhere on this thread, we’re talking about an issue with DC transportation, and how buying a pack of gum at the airport gas station constitutes enough “airport business” to avoid paying a toll. (And also skip a lot of traffic.)

          Is that a loophole, or following the law? Either way, if the government wanted to, they could “close the loophole” or more accurately, tighten up the laws defining “airport business.” Problem solved. If the lawmakers continue to let “loopholes” exist, then I assume it’s an intended consequence. Again, not my fault if they can’t fix unintended consequences.

          Loopholes are about doing what the law permits. They’re not about breaking the law and avoiding prosecution.

      2. Amanda*

        Assuming that all lawyers practice law at the expense of morals and values is like assuming that all IT professionals are hackers like Edward Snowden.

      3. Helka*

        I’m not a lawyer, but I do work in a job that involves a lot of “defending the indefensible” and playing merry hell with loopholes.

        And at the end of the day, it’s about a different way of looking at the idea of “represent the client to the best of your ability.” Sometimes our clients are in the wrong. That’s an inescapably true thing. But even if they are, what we’re doing is looking to make sure that the dispute against them doesn’t turn into a free-for-all. If they’re liable for $200, we make sure they’re getting hit for $200 and not $400. If there’s an accusation that’s probably true, we push to make sure it’s definitely true. If the dispute’s supposed to be opened within six months of the event, then we’re going to make sure that deadline is held to and our client won’t get hit for something that happened a year ago.

        That’s still representing best interests. Sometimes it sucks. Sometimes I hate having to take a side I think is ultimately wrong. But overall, it’s still a good thing to make the guys on the right side do their job properly. If you want to win, you can’t half-ass it, and enforcing that is part of my job.

        I’ve defended timeshare resellers, shady “tech support” services, and debt collection agencies. Do I think I’m doing God’s work? Heck no. But representing these folks is part of making sure the system works. Do they suck? Yeah. But that still doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to have someone representing their interests at the table.

        1. Dan*

          Yeah, and besides “did he do it?” isn’t usually the right question to ask. Did the accused kill his wife? Sure… but that’s not what he goes to jail for. He goes to jail for 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, and perhaps one or two more, and even that depends on the state.

          So yes, people deserve representation do ensure that thy’re charged with an appropriate crime.

      4. Cucumber*

        Joey, there are some wicked lawyers out there (and I mean that in the dictionary sense, not that they are ‘wicked cool’ like in Boston). But there are others who went into the field because of their morals and values. My cousin started out as a labor lawyer and is now a fed.

        Among the people she’s helped are people who were discriminated because of their disabilities or national origin, and survivors of child abuse and domestic violence.

        Likewise, one of my best friends in college has investigated workplaces for civil rights violations – like the kind we read about here on Ask a Manager. She’s also defended people who were cheated by landlords (sweet justice, considering her family was illegally thrown on their street by a landlord when she was a kid), and people who have been discriminated against because of their disabilities. Neither one of these women make a living off legal loopholes, and don’t live high on the hog off “BigLaw”.

        And you know, I have a lawyer who advises my small business, and another lawyer I work with at my day job. They don’t live for loopholes, they live to protect people from making dumb mistakes and putting their company at risk.

        As Reidi said, this kind of generality about “all” lawyers is not fair, especially when there are lawyers who are just as disgusted by unethical behavior.

    7. Senor Poncho*

      I’ll keep this very very brief, and will simply (a) point out that you’re way off on the debt / “ivy league” issue, among other things (massive debt is the rule, not the exception), (b) provide Berkeley’s nominal in state tuition of $48,165.50/year and Hastings’ nominal in-state tuition of $ 48,335/year as examples, (c) point out that the trade off for prospective law students is typically between better job placement (read: schools that actually place most of their graduates in jobs that pay enough to service their debt obligations) and cheaper tuition (read: discounting schools provide to students with higher LSATs to entice those students to attend), and (d) point out that paying clients are typically necessary not only to practice law but to, you know, survive, get food/shelter, meet debt obligations, etc.

      Honestly, just take 15 minutes and surf around on here if you want a more realistic picture of things: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ . It ain’t pretty.

    8. Stephanie*

      Not a lawyer, but I did work in the legal field and have several friends who went to law school and are now attorneys (so I know a lot of attorneys). The main complaint I heard was that law school didn’t prep them to actually practice. The few who did land jobs post school learned the actual practice on the job, but the recurring complaint was that school taught them the theory and history behind a contract but not how to actually write a contract.

      And seconding everyone who says school is absurdly expensive. There is an unranked, for-profit school locally that costs $180k for three years of attendance. Even if your goal isn’t to work at Cravath, $180k is still a ton of debt to try and start running a small or solo business.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Good point. The theory and thinking behind the law is there but the practical side is sorely lacking. I am hearing the same thing.

        1. Anx*

          Inspired by today’s other post on law degrees….

          I can’t help but think that there is some value in focusing on the theory, and not the practice. Because not everyone who gets a JD or studies law is interested in being an attorney. I would imagine there should be some specialization in the final semesters for career preparation.

          I know nothing about law, though.

          1. Jillociraptor*

            I think that’s absolutely true. The base of knowledge about the law is so vast and so ever-changing that you actually can’t “learn” it. What you actually need is a structural understanding of the law, and a basic set of frameworks and skills so that you know how to find and interpret the information you need. Eventually you reach a point where you are an expert in an area of law, but when you’re a new associate? No way; you need to know how to research and contextualize what you find. I can’t fathom how a law school would ever “teach you to practice.”

      3. Dorothy*

        Absolutely correct. I tell people that law school didn’t prepare me for anything except law school exams — it doesn’t even really prepare you well to pass the bar exam. You probably know, but many readers won’t, that in order to take the bar exam, the majority of us took (and PAID FOR) a separate, “bar prep” class in order to pass the bar exam? And by the way, studying for the bar doesn’t prepare you to do anything other than pass the bar (I think that any reasonably intelligent person who hasn’t gone to law school could probably pass the bar exam after taking the bar prep course and studying for 2-3 weeks as a full-time job). I’ve heard lawyers say that the third (and last) year of law school should be a practicum, working in law. I think that’s a fabulous idea – maybe that way, new grads will be a little more prepared for practicing law, because there is a lot of damage that a brand -new lawyer with a license and no experience can do to clients.

        1. anon attorney*

          In my jurisdiction, after the law degree you have to take a one year practical diploma then do a two year internship before you can be licensed to practise. Which means that by then you should be reasonably well versed in the dirty details of law e.g. not pissing off clients, keeping your files organized, getting paid.

          I feel sorry for people who genuinely want to be lawyers who live in the US given what I’ve read about the job and education market. Messed up. I didn’t qualify until I was in my late thirties and I’ve never regretted changing careers although unfortunately I now make about half what I did before (although I also work 4 days/week and don’t do crazy hours. My firm doesn’t expect it and I wouldn’t work somewhere that did.)

    9. Rat Racer*

      I’m don’t think you’re correct with the statement “nobody cares where you went to school after you’ve practiced a year.”

      That depends heavily on the firm and what kind of law you practice.

    10. Lamington*

      I just want to chime in that I went to a T4 school and owe 130k just on tuition money, I always worked during my law school in a full time job. also for court appointments, it is competitive and feast or famine. One of my friends does this for a living and is making less than 30k a year, you cannot just rely on that.

    11. JCC*

      ” If, say, you are living in your parents’ basement for lack of work, that’s understandable. What’s bewildering is why you’re not practicing law. With a computer and a phone, a lawyer can file documents, accept payment for services, and take CLEs. Add a suit and public transit or a used car, and you have a law practice. ”

      That’s the big elephant in the room — nobody wants to be Lionel Hutz practicing low-rent law out of a briefcase, even though that road is always open; why not?

      1. Circumpolar*

        My comments were directed at motivated, competent, lawyers who cared about the law and their clients, yet still lacking formal employment. I don’t think I overestimated most of the AAM legal community. Those who see themselves as incompetent, and are willing to do shoddy work, have more problems than any hiring manager can solve. Good luck.

        Finally, regarding loans. I had them. My employees have them. We/they hunkered down, made a plan, and paid/pay them off– not unlike Dorothy above. Had enough for necessities, lived modestly, drove old cars, ate noodles. Yet, couldn’t imagine doing anything else. Salaries are higher now than 20 years ago, so if you manage to cut your costs through scholarships and work (and schools like Houston, mentioned earlier) , as many of my employees have done, you can still get out with less than half of the 130-150,000 commonly invoked. As to Ivy’s, we have those, too. All I care about is whether a person can read, write, think at a high level, and has the life experience to relate to everyone. No school has a monopoly on those lawyers. They are everywhere, fighting for justice and the expansion of liberty and due process for all people, in often heroic anonymity.
        Thank you for your thoughtful responses and dissents to my post.

  6. Elkay*

    Hopefully Ask A Manager readers don’t need to hear this but from experience this week – please don’t stop by your co-worker’s desk for a long (5+ minutes) chat about a project you are working together on when you’ve just been for a run.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      I wouldn’t care as long as is wasn’t a guy wearing head to toe spandex that makes it look like he’s smuggling grapes in his pants (my former coworker).

      1. Adonday Veeah*

        Oh, Lily, how can I POSSIBLY explain to my co-workers why I am laughing so hard tears are streaming down my face?!

  7. Starbux*

    It has been an interesting week at work for me. I have been looking for a new position for several months because my current team and company just isn’t a good fit anymore, my manager has turned into a Mean Girl, etc.

    Earlier this week, our team met and they announced that our division is being shut down. The silver lining is that I was not laid off and will be shifted to another team within the organization. I’ve heard great things about my new manager. We did have some layoffs, which are always unfortunate but when you’re in sales and haven’t sold anything in years…yeah, it might be time to go.

    1. Starbux*

      I should add that it has been hard for the existing staff as well. A lot if blood, sweat, and tears went into our work and we feel like failures. I’m trying to remain positive, especially about my “new” role and manager but I’m just so tired of this place. I feel like I already have “one foot out the door” anyway, because I’m actively looking for a new position. Plus, all our existing work had been put on hold…so I literally have very little to do.

    2. Ali*

      I wish you luck. I’m trying to switch jobs for similar reasons (albeit I have a male manager haha). I used to love my job, but I’m burned out and it doesn’t really fit me anymore. Hope you find something soon!

  8. Larisa*

    I’m looking at going back to college at an older age (I’m 30, I’ll be almost 35 when I graduate). All I’ve really done over the last decade are call centre sales jobs (I hate hate hate insurance and sales, my current job is so depressing) and various retail and baby sitting and child’s party entertaining jobs (dressing up as a princess) since then which has prompted me to go back to college because I want to make a career (in Marketing/PR/Communication fields). Will the fact I am older and a new graduate make this impossible or is there a chance my maturity and ‘life experience’ will be more of an asset than I think it could be. I’m scared I’m wasting my time and money going back and should just accept I’m stuck in dead end work and try and make the most of it. Do managers hire older people who basically wasted their own lives before getting their crap together or will I be judged badly for not having it together for 10 years?

    1. Nerd Girl*

      #1 – I just turned 40 so if 30 is old, we have issues. ;)
      #2 – Good for you for going back to school! I am planning on taking advantage of the company tuition reimbursement this winter and pursue my degree in business. :)
      #3 – I hope that you won’t be judged. I don’t think that many people out there “have it together”.
      #4- don’t accept the life you have now as the only thing you’re ever going to have. Follow your dream, get your degree, and make things better for yourself!!!

      1. Larisa*

        1. LOL, I don’t think 40 is old, but I panic at the whole ‘it’s impossible to get jobs after your 20s’ things I’ve read online.
        2-4: Thank you for your kind words :)

        1. Anna*

          What you’re reading is BS. I was 39 when I was hired at my current gig and it is the job I had been pursuing for more than 2 years (not this exact job, but a job doing this sort of thing). As Alison has said on this blog many times, people change fields and directions for a variety of reasons. I’d add that they don’t all do them when they’re 25.

        2. Parfait*

          I’ll tell you one thing: your degree date will make people assume that you are a lot younger than you are when they’re looking at your resume. My mother-in-law got her degree late in life, and she swears that a degree date of 1985 versus 1970 saved her from a LOT of age discrimination as she got older. Sometimes there was a little shock when she appeared for an interview, but guess what, she got the interview.

          That might not seem like a boon at 30 but when you’re 50, it absolutely will.

    2. soitgoes*

      Lots of people our age are hitting the same roadblocks you are, and going back to school is a great way to open up new opportunities. Not just because you’re being educated, but because you can take advantage of internship placements. Marketing is a bit tricky these days; lots of people want to work “in marketing,” and a lot of businesses are finally realizing that running their own social media campaigns isn’t all that hard. But being educated and qualified in any sense will help you, and it’s definitely good for explaining away a spotty resume. You were in school, after all. Good luck!

      1. Larisa*

        The problem is that working in ‘harder’ business areas like accounting, finance and banking are not options for me because I am not very good with numbers at all, so I need to look at the softer areas of business to try and find something that matches my strengths. Unfortunately, my real strengths are things like History, which are useless unless you want to be a teacher, which I don’t. The internships was what I was really hoping the access. The problem is that I have to go to school in a city I don’t want to live in, and I’m worried I’ll get stuck living in that city after graduation.

        1. soitgoes*

          I’m definitely not trying to steer you away from what you want to do! It’s totally possible to use a marketing degree to enter pretty much any field you’re interested in. I just think it’s worth mentioning that general “marketing” is this decade’s fantasy dream job. Remember how, when we were little girls, all of our favorite TV characters wanted to be journalists? These days it’s marketing, to the extent that nearly every local startup I’ve seen (that has folded within a year or two) has been a marketing agency. Why do you have to go to school where you don’t want to live? I’d say focus on that first, since jobs are limited by location.

    3. Wilton Businessman*

      My Aunt cut hair full-time and went to school part-time for 10 years to earn her degree at 50. She is a really strong person and I admire her for it. And she’s in a much better place for doing it.

    4. Robin*

      Will some people judge you? Sure. But some people will use almost any excuse to judge. Have you seen how much judgy crap people write about millennials and their work ethic?

      But I think most people know someone who took a little longer to get it together, and sometimes those people are much harder working, and more focused, because they know a lot better than the rest of us what the alternative is.

      On a related note, I think in your situation, confidence in yourself is going to be really important. I think your insecurity about this is going to be a much bigger issue if you’re projecting insecurity. And in the field you’re thinking about, self-confidence is especially important. You are accomplishing great things! And you’re doing it the hard way! Maybe spend the time you’re in school also working on building up your own confidence in yourself, or at least finding a way to fake it ’til you make it.

      Good luck!

      1. Larisa*

        Ah yes, I’ve seen all the writing about how my 1984 birthdate means I am an entitled lazy brat who wants to spend 9 months of the year on vacation and get a new smart phone every month LOL.

        I do feel insecure about it mainly because I have friends who managed to get it all right the first time and never had to go through this crisis of sorts. It makes me feel like a real loser next to them to be 30 and basically at the same point in life as a 18 year old high school graduate.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The people who get it all right the first time, fall apart at the first bump they hit. Why. Because they are used to getting it all right. They have no clue how to handle or react to the bumps in the road.

        2. Anx*

          I can feel you. I have a flip phone phone and want 10 vacation days to visit family and help my family with home maintenance projects.

          I feel like such a loser thinking that I was in a better place at 18 AND had no student debt/hadn’t had my mom pay for school yet.

    5. Future Analyst*

      I can’t speak to the effectiveness of getting a degree in order to change enter this particular field, but I would certainly caution against presenting yourself as having wasted your life before going to school. It would be much more useful to tweeze out any skills you learned during your previous positions that apply to the new field. Customer service positions offer direct interaction with the clients (which speaks to an understanding of your audience), call center sales and retail jobs speaks to communication skills, and even the child’s party entertaining jobs can speak to being creative and innovative in your approach to your audience. By reframing your previous experience as providing you with indirect experience in marketing/PR, you can show that you see things in a creative and positive light, which would certainly help in this field.

      1. Larisa*

        Thanks for that :) It just feels like a waste to have had such ‘useless’ jobs whole most of my peers have careers at this age.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Yeah, comparing yourself to others doesn’t do any good. There will always be others that look better, especially from the outside.

          It’s better to compare yourself to yourself — where you are vs where you could be, where you want to be. And if you’re not where you want to be, what does it take to get there? Start at least taking small steps in that direction, and pick up speed as you get confidence in the direction.

        2. Dan*

          My “useless” jobs are an integral part of my employment today.

          I used to be a truck driver before going back to school in software engineering and mathematics. Think driving a truck is useless? Not when you’re working for a trucking company developing software and routing algorithms.

        3. KSM*

          Don’t compare your day-to-day with everyone else’s highlight reels. You see their fabulous, rising career, but don’t know they hate their job, etc.

      2. Nanc*

        Future Analyst has it right about applying your previous skills. Raise your hand if you’re in marketing and have dressed in costume for a trade show or event!

      3. SherryD*

        I agree that those birthday party gigs sound like they are good experience for marketing and communications. That shows you’re not shy — or at least that you’re willing to be extroverted, and “perform” when the job calls for it.

    6. Calla*

      Congrats! I just turned 26 and am going back to school currently (will graduate with my bachelors when I’m around 28 probably, unless I really load up). I haven’t tried to change careers yet and also can’t speak for Marketing specifically, but in my experience, having a degree will definitely help you. And IMO you will have a leg up on other “new grads” because you have real-world work experience.

    7. Artemesia*

      Getting a degree resets the clock to some extent and you are likely in many fields to be able to come in above entry level as the past work experience makes you more desirable. And you will have an advantage in school over your 18 year old self and many of your 18 year old peers; older women who have been learning to juggle their many roles tend to be good students — they know how to organize themselves and get things done. (and in a few years you will be a few year older; with this plan, you will be older and have that degree)

    8. ella*

      One of my aunts went back to school after raising four kids and nursing (and losing) her husband to a long illness. She has a job that she loves now. Granted, this was ten years ago or so, when the job market was very different; and she went into teaching, which I think might be more forgiving to the “older person changing their life” demographic (more forgiving than, say, a social media marketing firm might be). But it worked out well for her and it’s great to see her so happy and fulfilled in a job she loves. Good luck!

    9. HAnon*

      Here’s my 2 cents as someone who works in this field (on the creative side), and also would not want to incur any extra debt. I’d try to get some kind of entry level job in a marketing agency…even as a receptionist, so you can get a foot in the door. Agencies don’t typically pay very well until you get up to a certain level and often work their salaried employees around the clock, so even with a shiny new degree it would probably still take several years to work up to a really decent paygrade…I’d look into taking a continuing education type of course in the field you’re interested in, as well as reading up on whatever new methods/technology/etc are being used in that field, and read some white papers. Volunteer to manage the social media for a friend or family member’s website or small business to earn some experience on the side. I say this because the marketing field is definitely not for everyone, and it might give you a better idea of what you would actually be doing on a daily basis before you commit to a full degree program with loans (my assumption) and everything that comes along with it. Also, start looking for opportunities to do some PR/Marketing for your current company…see if you can take on some extra tasks that will give you some experience to put on your resume…maybe it’s crafting social media posts, responding to customers, revamping something on the website…so much of this can be self-taught if you look for the right resources. Get in touch with a hiring agency that places people in marketing/creative positions, and ask them what you need to do to make yourself an attractive candidate. If you have a customer service background, that definitely can fall under “communications experience”…try to think of incidents where you took time to really understand what the customer wanted/needed/was looking for…see what other skills can translate to the marketing field. You might also want to consider a position in marketing like a Project or Traffic Manager, or Media Buyer. Also, if you have really great people skills, work ethic, and positive attitude, that’s a huge plus. You can teach anyone facts/skills…I’ve found that employers are often looking for people that will be positive, bring solutions (not problems) to the table, and be pleasant to work with and interact with…so no job experience has been wasted if you can demonstrate these things.
      Good luck!

      1. Anna*

        My personal experience with deciding that I liked marketing/PR/communications is that if you’re planning on going full tilt to school and not working, volunteer to do some marketing or PR for a non-profit that needs help. That is exactly what I did. I was hired on to do that sort of work (not for the NPO I volunteer with). Or, even if you are working, you might carve out some time to volunteer doing that sort of work. My volunteer work led directly to my current career. I cannot emphasize it enough.

    10. Felicia*

      I am in Marketing/PR/Communications and you can do it! You are not stuck! It is a hard field to get into for absolutely everyone, but i think your age won’t hold you back:) make the most of your school experience and get as much volunteering/interning in the field as you possibly can while you’re there – which i would tell anyone! Age might hold you back in entertainment marketing and those really competitive agencies, but i’m in non profits and here it won’t. Your customer service experience will be an asset :) And really as long as you get as much practical knowledge/experience as you can while you’re in school then you’ll be fine!

      And no one has it together or is stuck.

    11. straws*

      I have 2 positive anecdotes to share on this:
      1) My husband just obtained his associate degree and has started job hunting. It gave him a great confidence boost, and he’s already been interviewed. His current & previous jobs were in somewhat related industries, so his experience is absolutely a plus (he was specifically told this by one interviewer).
      2) My mother went back to school after 15+ years of being a stay at home mom. She almost immediately found a job and moved around companies and within her field 3 more times before retiring. She never felt like her age should hold her back if her grades, and later her work quality, were impressive. I think her confidence in that helped her a lot. So if you do push forward and go, let yourself shine! And good luck either way!

    12. whatnow*

      Don’t not do it because you’re older. Especially if you’re already stuck in dead end jobs that you hate, the worse thing that could happen is that you go to college, and come out with debt and are in dead-end jobs that you hate. But then the worse thing that could happen right now is you keep staying in those jobs. At least if you go you would have had that experience of going to college, and you would have the possibility of keeping applying to jobs you want, and changing where you end up.

      Also as long as you go to college and are really active: internships/volunteering/part-time jobs and really learn everything there is to know about Marketing/PR and plan it out – research etc about looking for jobs/companies, then I think you’d have an advantage over younger graduates. A lot of people go to college when they’re young not knowing where they want to be, or what they don’t want to do. You’ll have loads more motivation and insight. Just make sure you plan so that you can get a great job/experience when you graduate. Good luck!

    13. Turanga Leela*

      Go for it! Be smart about networking and looking for job opportunities while you’re in school. Practice talking about your work history and how it led you to go back to school and change fields. For whatever it’s worth (and I’m not in marketing or communications), I would LOVE to hire someone who used to be a birthday party princess. You know how to work hard and have a real reason for going to college.

      You’ll be 35 whether you go back to school or not; the question is whether you’d rather be 35 with a degree or without.

    14. Seal*

      Despite having a BA, I went back to school to complete an addition major in my 30s, then got 2 masters degrees in my 40s. I was never the oldest person in any of my programs. I had been stuck in a dead end library job for years; going back to school was absolutely the best thing I’ve done for myself. After finishing my first masters degree in library science, I was able to get my first professional position at age 43 and was made a department head a year later. My combination of years of library experience prior to getting my MLIS plus the MLIS itself was what got me the job. Truly, it’s never too late to go back to school.

      One other thing to consider. Five years from now you’ll be 35 regardless of whether or not you go to school. Do you want to turn 35 as a new college graduate on your way toward a new career you love, or do you want to turn 35 having spent the past 5 years working at jobs you say you hate? The choice is yours, but you DO have a choice.

    15. Lily in NYC*

      My aunt went to med school at 35, and she had 4 little kids at home (who she neglected while she was in school, but that’s a different story). She was so successful she ended up being the president of her state’s AMA and was the head of her department at UCLA medical center, which is very competitive. But she was very, very driven.

    16. LiteralGirl*

      I went back to school at 39 after being a stay-at-home mom for 6 years. It was actually a confidence booster for me. I understood the material better with some life experience under my belt and really excelled. When I finished, I knew where I wanted to work and took a job that, while not what I wanted to do, enabled me to move up to my current position pretty quickly.
      Go back to school if you can. Take advantage of the fact that you’re older than many of the other students, lead project work, and really get into what you’re studying. Be willing to start in an entry level position when you graduate and work your way up. You may be doing it later than your peers but you will have a much more satisfying work life if you are able to do work you are interested in.
      Good luck!

    17. periwinkle*

      Ann Landers (or Dear Abby) used to remind people that you’ll be 4 years older in 4 years, whether or not you go for your degree. I finally got around to finishing my bachelors at age 44. At 47 I finished my MSc. At 49 I was hired into a thoroughly awesome position.

      1. anon attorney*

        +1. I went back to university part time to do my law degree when I was 32. Ten years later I’m happily employed in the field and I have work friends who were older than me when they started. Life experience is an advantage in almost all academic and professional fields IMO. If you can afford it, definitely go for it.

    18. lap_giraffe*

      1984 gal here in the same position, also considering going back to school (i made the unfortunate decision to get a masters in the arts, thus graduating in 2008, and it’s amazing to see the difference between my college friends who went straight into the workforce in 2006 “thriving”, and those of us who thought we were making a smart decision very much struggling)

      I’ve had a distinct pleasure of getting to know several great people in the 47 – 62 range over the last few years, and just generally getting out of the same age bubble that college and young adulthood encompass, and I’ve realized that a lot of the anxieties I have are normal and not necessarily something people grow out of. One of my best friends is 51 and he did all the right things, worked the right jobs, stayed in positions and grew within companies, and he looks at me and some of our other younger colleagues with envy because we feel free to try on new things and move on from something that’s not working for us. Another friend, who is one of the smartest and most successful people I know, is nearing 50 and entertaining new career ideas and feeling the pull of a new city.

      The caveat here, worth mentioning, is that none of these people have kids or traditional families. I don’t know if having kids makes it any different or gives you the stamina to push through bad jobs knowing that someone else is relying on you, but I imagine people are always going to be doubting if they’re doing the right thing, if they’re far enough along the success continuum, if the grass isn’t greener….Maybe that sounds depressing, that it never gets better, but it has freed me up to realize I’ve given myself impossible standards and need to come back to reality on a regular basis :-)

    19. Sabrina*

      I hate to say “don’t do it.” But since I can’t be a shining example, I guess I can be a horrible warning. I went back to school to finish my degree. I already had an associates, so I just needed to finish my bachelors. A year after graduation, and I couldn’t find anything. I’ve only had one interview. The thing with marketing, is right now, you need experience AND a degree. I couldn’t afford to do an internship (paid or unpaid) while I went to school, and it’s crazy, but I’ve found internships that want experience too! So here I am, still in a crappy job that I went back to school to get out of, except now I also have student loans to pay for. Going back to school is easily the worst decision I’ve ever made.

      1. Dan*

        That sucks. I’m the complete opposite though. When “school” comes up here, I always say, “go back only if you have a real plan.” Because you’re right, you don’t want a pile of debt and no extra money to pay it off.

        Although, I’d argue that a BA/BS as a returning adult probably isn’t a real door opener anymore. It seems that most that get that degree late in life do it for self-esteem reasons as much as anything else. It’s almost just a bare minimum, so part of me understands why if you’ve already got a job, then the degree isn’t adding a whole lot of value.

      2. Cucumber*

        Sabrina, I’m sorry this is happening to you. Maybe you can move into a peripheral field – for instance, managing social media for an organization or business (where your maturity will be an asset – mucho horror stories about young ‘uns using Facebook or Twitter irresponsibly). I think health care marketing and communications is an area that will continue to grow, even if it’s not as glamorous as some other fields.

        I graduated into a recession (though this one has been worse for a lot of people), and couldn’t work in my chosen field, had a lot of doors slammed in my face. I found peripheral work; then as a military spouse, later on, started a sideline business — and the sideline business finally allowed me to work in my chosen field, and eventually led to a solid day job. I do think persistence can lead to luck, over the long run.

        2. Felicia*

          In my experience, managing social media for an organization is an even harder thing to get into than traditional marketing. Everyone wants to do it…such jobs often get hundred of applicants.

          It took me 2 years of internships, volunteering, one temp job, living off my supportive parents and lots of tears before getting my job in public relations, which I have now. I love my job now ,and I loved getting my degree. I’m very passionate about the field. I think if you do it , it has to be a passion – it’s not really a good plan if it’s just to escape crappy jobs, because plenty of people who graduated with me, did well in school, and have done 2-3 internships and/or volunteer, are still stuck working in retail , or in a call centre, because thats all they can get.

    21. A Teacher*

      I teach a required course at a junior college at night for those entering the health care field. Many of my students are non-traditional–some are 25, some are 40, and my oldest was 56, he was going to be a physical therapy assistant, and has since graduated. I LOVE my non-traditional students, mainly because they have had life experiences that a lot of students fresh out of high school haven’t had. I like the traditional students too, but overall I find that my non-traditional students tend to be more focused–even more focused than the “A” traditional students and they appreciate when I talk about real life experience because most of them have had jobs. Good luck to you!

    22. Puddin*

      Mr. Puddin is on his last semester of his Bachelor’s degree after returning to school in his late 30’s. His age has been a blessing. He knows how to cut the crap with fellow students better than most traditional age students (like the person who does not pull his/her weight in group work) as an example. He relates to the instructors as peers – because they are age-wise – this creates some intangible benefits in those relationships. His experience lends ‘trust’ and ‘capability’ to his boss’ perception of him in is current internship which allows for more tasks and exposure than it normally would.

      I finished my Bachelor’s (Professional Communications) when i was 28 – so a little older than traditional as well. I cannot recall anytime in school or in my career when this has been a negative. The only thing I worry about is that if a prospective employer sees my graduation date, they might assume I am younger than I am and have less ‘on the job’ experience than I do. Although, I am getting old enough (44) that is becoming less of an issue.

      Go to school! Even if your job life or income is only marginally better, you will have grown personally and been exposed to concepts, perspectives, and people that will change you – for the better. I do believe in an education for its own sake. And, even with the hiring difficulties people experience in troubling economies, you will (nearly) always have a better chance at getting a better job with a degree or win out over another candidate without a degree.

      Finally, I think you are judging yourself too harshly when you say you wasted your life. It seems to me that you were figuring things out. Now that you know what you want, go get it. I’ve been where you are and getting my education was the best decision I ever made.

      Whatever you choose, good luck!

    23. HR Manager*

      Maybe this is my overly idealistic view, but I don’t think it’s the age per se that may stop a manager from hiring someone older for an entry-level job. It may be their presumptions about your expectations on work, salary, growth, etc. You will be competing for jobs with other fresh grads who may be ok earning 25k a year because they’re on their parents’ health insurance until they’re 26, or who are excited to learn anything because it’s all new to them. And yes, a lot of recruiters and hiring managers stereotype without consciously doing so. The important thing will be to challenge those presumptions in your interview, when you can.

      You want hiring managers not to stereotype you because of your age, but don’t expect them to generalize and assume positive qualities due to your age either. Life experience and maturity (age-wise) themselves usually don’t translate to much when I recruit — staying calm in difficult situations, a pattern of showing good judgment or making good decisions, history of taking on more responsibility, managing through tough situations, etc. do. I can’t tell you how many cases of office drama I’ve seen involve older workers who regress to being 8 yrs old when there is any conflict.

    24. Anonicorn*

      I think being a PR Director (or whatever) for 15-20 years is better than being one for 0 years.

      Last year as I was nearing my 30th birthday, I went back to college for a degree in biochemistry. I already have an undergrad in English, so this was something completely different than my entire academic and professional past. I don’t think it’s all that uncommon. I’ve met dozens of people who aren’t fresh out of high school. People can judge, but that’s their problem. Besides, I’ve consistently had the top test grades in two of my classes so far. I think there’s more value in a well-established work ethic than simply being “on the path” at a young age.

    25. Cucumber*

      I’m sure other people have told you this already, but non-traditional students (those over 25) tend to do better academically and have higher GPAs.

      Also, I recently did a study for graduate school with a specific group of students, some of whom were non-traditional. We found that the older students tested better on new knowledge than the younger students.

      Back when I was a (traditionally-aged) undergraduate, my favorite people in many of my classes were older students, because they had a different perspective, could explain stories and ideas based on the places they’d been and things they’d done, and as people, tended to be more confident in their identity. I met an exception or two (a fifty year old woman who was too much of a free spirit; her age seemed to have nothing to do with it; and an older guy who was a little skeevy with the ladies).

      Have a lot of fun and do great!

    26. Just me*

      I was working in a call center and graduated with a BS in marketing at 30. Seven years later I am in a senior marketing position. Things to consider:

      •marketing is closely related to sales. Your experience will likely be helpful.
      •consider your area. Marketing jobs are hard to find in rural areas. I had to relocate to find a new position to grow in my career.
      •volunteering can totally help you. Not having experience will make it difficult to transition when you do graduate.

      I started in a smaller company and had the opportunity to really grow. Being more mature is not a problem, but make sure you network. In marketing, social media is important. LinkedIn will help! Understanding social media isn’t just for kids.
      Good luck!

    27. Dr. Doll*

      Make the most of your time in school by cultivating relationships with your professors. Professors are pretty good about not judging people who needed time to get their crap together (as long as it’s not done in *their* class!) They will be absolutely delighted with a mature, serious, hard-working person who is interested and committed. And then they steer you toward good opportunities and write very good letters of recommendation. If you can, join things like the honors program in your school; there’s a dearth of business types in those programs so you will be extra-special welcome.

      And btw, I just now hired a student “communications director.” Look for opportunities to work in your field AT your school.

  9. Nervous Accountant*

    I’ve been toying with the idea of taking on a temp assignment in another state…..no real reason except mild curiosity for a change of scenery. I’ve never been interested in going out of the city so this has come totally out of the blue and I’d have absolutely no idea how to go about doing this. The biggest hurdle is the fact that I don’t drive yet (the city does have public transit although not the kind I’m used to here).

    Am I crazy for wanting to do this? If not, where/how do I even begin searching? I’m sure there are posts here, so any thoughts/links would be appreciated!

    1. Karowen*

      I don’t think you’re crazy! There’s a whole industry dedicated to travel nursing that lets you work quarter-year contracts around the nation. If you don’t have ties to an area, or just want to get out of where you are now, I’d definitely say to do it. Literally the only reason I wouldn’t say to go for it is if you have a partner’s career or children to consider.

      I don’t know about the searching part, but maybe try some of the bigger staffing firms that have locations nationwide/globally. If you can work well with them, they may be able to help you bounce around.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Honestly, I would learn to drive first and then go for it. If it’s a place with only mediocre public transporation, I think that’s a pretty big annoyance. You might be able to get to work easily enough, but think about the rest of your life – shopping, errands, meeting people, etc.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I think that’s my biggest hurdle right now :( Working elsewhere was never a thing for me but I’m growing more and more interested in the idea.

        For some reason, I dn’t plan on having much of a social life…during tax season I don’t think I’ll be working less than 60 hours, so that won’t leave alot of extra time to shop or run errands etc.

        1. fposte*

          I could see doing this for a temp position with a finite end. But I think if it doesn’t have a finite end and an escape route it can leave you in a very bad place.

          I’m assuming that you would at least be able to buy groceries, though. If you can only eat restaurant delivery, that might end up being an expensive experiment.

        2. Lily in NYC*

          I don’t mean this to sound judgy. But if you don’t plan to have a social life and are just going to work ridiculous hours, is it worth moving elsewhere if you aren’t going to be able to actually enjoy exploring the area and getting to know new people? I can relate about the driving thing – I’m in NYC and haven’t driven a car in 10 years. I would be terrified to get behind the wheel after such a long break.

    3. The IT Manager*

      Not crazy! My previous job forced me to move, and it was a great experience. I thought I liked living in the country, but I just did not know any better. Also what living in a city means, varies widely. I’ve decided I like living in a city or a large town with all the perks that come with it. BTW I have briefly visited but never tried to live in NYC. I think I would not like it. Too many people and buildings crowded together.

      It is a bit harder to find a job long distance, but the desire to move and experience something different is normal. I think it’s awesome that you’re willing to take the chance.

      2. Sara aka NV*

        Plucky…cute word!!!!

        That’s pretty much the only reason I want to do this, for the story…..lol.. is that a bad reason? my husband is supportive of me being away for a couple of months since there’s a firm end date. I’ll be staying with family so as long as I can contribute $$, getting around for errands, groceries, etc shouldn’t be a problem.

        1. nep*

          No bad reasons. When we create or live a new ‘story’, we’re experiencing new things and people, and probably learning a lot.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I took a summer job in a resort area, decades ago. No regrets. I wanted to do more of it, but other opportunities came along. Although, I had my DL, I had no vehicle. Public transportation was non-existent, but walking was doable. (Work was about a mile away.) The only big deal were groceries and laundry. I had to be able to carry everything back and forth. If you are going to walk every where and work 60 hours a week you are going to be one pooped puppy. (Heck, walking everywhere and working 40 hours a week will get plenty tired. And odd things come up- I worked 3-11 and the grocery store closed at 9. That meant get groceries before work or be hungry after work. No wiggle room there.)

      Since I was still in school my plan was to move home once the semester started. So I had a back up plan if I ran out of employment opportunities. Make sure you have a back up plan and/or safety net. Know the area. If you know public transportation is not good, part of your plan should be to get your DL and a cheap car.
      The hardest part of the story for me was not having a checking account and a credit card. (There were no debit cards then.) Banks were hostile to seasonal employees and there were all kinds of fees for any type of service if you did not have permanent residency. I kept a bare bones savings account. I had to walk to the bank, cash the check and walk to the various locations to pay my bills. That was hard.

  10. Malissa*

    What a week!

    We had a long-time employee quit in a fit of rage. After hours thank goodness. I got reprimanded for being helpful and organized. We had picture day at work. Alison confirmed my suspicions that I work for a loon.
    Also I found what may be a perfect position for my escape.

    So how was everybody else’s week?

    1. Diet Coke Addict*

      I spent twelve hours working on a project as instructed, then my boss came back into the office today and told me I’d done it all wrong (even though I worked from his instructions exactly and had his most beloved employee help me). I was apparently supposed to take the (differing) input from 3 different people and put it together, even though I was not informed of this at any point, ever. Whee.

    2. In Disguise*

      Good! Two steps forward, one step back is still forward progress. I see the light at the end of the tunnel, and although we’re not approaching as fast as anyone on the team would like, we’re definately approaching it. Current challenges seem surmountable.

      Yesterday afternoon with 30 minutes in the day, I was caught up on all my project work for the first time in to 12+ months I have been on this project. It’s a wierd feeling, but obviously very good.

      2. In Disguise*

        So this morning, I have been catching up on my overflowing email box. So easy to delete or archive things quickly when they’re months or weeks old. The items in my Inbox are less than 400 now. Wheee!

        I’m getting all ambitious and think maybe I can use some of this spare time in my day to implement some sort of Inbox management system before my next project starts. Does anyone has system that works for them? I avergae 40 – 50 messages a day with about 70% releated to my project. Some need responses but I am also CCed on a lot of info that I may just save “in case I need it.”

        1. Blue_eyes*

          A lot of people like the Inbox Zero style of inbox management. You can google it. It basically makes sure to take action on each email you receive (even if the action is to delete it), and don’t spend too much of your day (and therefore energy) managing email.

        2. ThursdaysGeek*

          I have folders for my general work email, with subfolders for some of the more common types, such as meetings, policies, status. Then I have another main folder for my work emails, with subfolders for each project. That way everything is more or less organized.

          In addition, I archive everything by year, so there is a general-2013 and work-2013 archive folder (with all the subfolders), and will be the same for 2014. That keeps me from getting in trouble with the email folder-size police.

        3. Yet another Alison*

          I have finally found a system which works for me, based on two folders – “action” and “archive”. I empty my inbox into those once a day or so. Only emails which need me to do something go into action, everything else gets deleted or archived.

          If I need to find anything in the archive the search function in outlook is fine. It could be better but even so the amount of time spent searching is so much less than the time I used to spend filing emails into sub folders. It’s also great to know that all the emails I have to respond to are in one place, which eliminates that niggling worry that there’s something urgent lurking in my inbox that I have missed.

          I also have one extra folder where I keep nice emails where people have said that I have done a good job on X, which serves two purposes – it cheers me up to read them if I’m having an awful day, and I show them to my line manager at performance review time. I do pieces of work for lots of departments, so my while my line manager is aware of what I’m up to, he doesn’t actually see most of it. It’s useful to have something to demonstrate what I’ve done well on.

    3. KellyK*

      Reprimanded for being helpful and organized? Ouch. I really want to hear that story. Were you making the slackers look bad or what?

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      Also I found what may be a perfect position for my escape.

      I imagined your ‘perfect position’ as you perched in an upper window of the office, hang-glider wings folded against your body, about to launch yourself away from this current job, looking back slightly with a wave and a smile.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      1. Airport Saga from Hell (read latest blog post) made me have to spend the night in Hotlanta instead of getting home on Monday night like I was supposed to. Called my boss from the hotel shuttle and she was very sympathetic. I love my boss. She is the best boss EVAH. <3 :D

      2. Finally got home at 11:30 am. Went to work for three hours. Had 380, 916, 652 emails.

      3. Am still jet-lagged, I guess–yesterday I got very little done. But I did a stair climb at work this morning and it was too easy! I'm going to have to ramp up my activity if I want to maintain the weight loss London and Cardiff gave me.

      2. Natalie*

        I spent a couple of months in Dublin during college, and it was bonkers how much weight I lost just from walking everywhere. And walking fast – Dubliners do not dawdle.

      3. Mister Pickle*

        Delta gave you a hotel room? I’m jealous!

        (j/k!)(I got stuck in Atlanta on the tail end of that big icestorm awhile back – the place felt like a refugee camp).

        1. Elizabeth West*

          If they hadn’t, I would have paid for my own.

          I wonder what would happen if you were traveling for work and that happened. Would your company reimburse you if you had to stay another night and/or find another hotel? I guess it would depend on the company, but I wouldn’t have liked to have to make that call. It was bad enough telling AwesomeBoss I wasn’t coming in in the morning.

          1. Mister Pickle*

            Actually, in the instance I mentioned, I was traveling on business (going home). My company’s policy is that they would indeed have paid for a hotel room (and I would have gladly taken them up on it!), but long story short: after a series of delayed and canceled flights, it was 2:30am and I had a ticket for a 7am flight out. It just didn’t seem worth the effort.

            (Also, insofar as there’s a silver lining, where I work, overcoming adversity during business travel is good for one’s reputation).

    6. Red*

      My large, non-profit academic institution announced that they’ve convened a committee (of faculty) to look at means of reducing our budget deficit from the last fiscal year. Looks like most of what they’ll be looking at is reducing admin. Is it wrong that I’m hoping that I’ll get a nice offer to escort me out the door?

      On the plus side, we received our third partial request for one of the recent queries we sent out to literary agents, and I got our website back up over the long weekend.

  11. Name*

    It might not happen (wishful thinking?) but it looks like my public-facing co-workers and I will be told to wear a plastic mustache in the name of “fun” at some point. Since I’m new I won’t protest it but I need somewhere to complain about being told to wear a gender-identifier of the opposite sex. Would they ask men to wear a hair bow or lipstick? :I

    1. Ash (the other one)*

      Hmm. I don’t see toy mustaches as a gender identifier… most men don’t wear toy mustaches either. They are pretty distinguishable from real facial hair. And women often wear them for laughs in goofy pictures or what not. But if you don’t want to participate, don’t… they shouldn’t make you do something you’re not comfortable with.

        1. Jazzy Red*

          ~> Snicker!>~ So true!

          OP, why can’t you just go with it? It’s not a big deal, unless you decide to make it one.

          Frankly, I think everyone should wear a fake mustache, groucho glasses, or a clown nose every now and then, lest we take ourselves too seriously.

    3. Robin*

      Dear all companies,

      Please stop making your employees wear humiliating things (like words on their butts, or mustaches, or whatever other crazy stuff you can think of) in the name of appealing to your customers. Your sane customers will think you’re stupid, and your employees will hate you.

      Sincerely,

      Everyone

      3. Seal*

        At first glance I thought you wrote “like words or mustaches on their butts” which made me giggle like a school girl. I wouldn’t want to work for someone who made me wear either of these things on my butt, either.

      4. Puddin*

        I think if these things occur organically from the customer or employees AND they are optional, then sure go for it. But this strikes me as mandatory fun. I will have none of it, thank you kindly. ;0)

    4. lifes a beach*

      Well, for women, once you get to a “certain” age, a moustache is no longer gender specific! I speak from experience!! LOL!!!

      1. Karowen*

        Or if you’re certain nationalities. Teenage me (through current me) can speak from experience on that one!

    5. Poohbear McGriddles*

      I don’t think I’ve ever seen a toy mustache, unless it was attached to a fake nose and glasses. Is this some sort of “Mo-vember” thing? If so, to me that would be like asking the guys to wear pink bras during October. I doubt you’d find many men interested in that. Okay, probably more than you’d like to think. Still, while I’m all for cancer awareness, this doesn’t sound like something your company should be forcing – or “strongly encouraging” – y’all to do.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I have seen plastic moustaches in Christmas crackers before. They have 2 little prongs of plastic which attach to your nostrils.

    6. Anx*

      I wouldn’t like this, either.

      As a mammal, I do have hair. As a woman in America, I tend to feel very self-conscious about it at times. I have a blonde mustache and beard, ‘peach fuzz.’ Most days I don’t notice it, but under the right light it’s visible.

      Something about wearing a mustache, even a fake one, would make me uncomfortable. Like, ‘haha, imagine how funny a mustache would be on her.’

    8. C Average*

      What’s up with the glut of inane, juvenile initiatives with no identifiable business purpose in the workplace? I swear I am not the Grinch, but it’s getting to the point where I want to get in the brace position every time someone tells me we’re going to do something “fun” at work.

  12. Perpetua*

    Sharing happy news – I’ve gotten my first raise! I actually skipped on my way back to my office! :D

    A 17% raise after only 3 months in my role – I feel very fortunate to be doing something I enjoy AND being very happy with the money and the overall conditions!

    Also, I approached my bosses simply wanting to get some additional feedback, see how I am doing so far, do they want me to do some things differently, etc., just like AAM always suggests, the raise was a welcome surprise. :)

  13. The IT Manager*

    I mentioned several weeks back that I was “conducting an experiement. ” I purchased a cheap (but seemingly accurate) digital thermometer and have been watching the temps as my cubical neighbor and I felt cold throughout the day. I discovered that the tempertures really do hover between 71 and 72 degrees most of the time (and rarely drop below 70 ever), and it is not signifigantly colder when I start to feel cold, and throw on a sweater or when I am really cold a fleece zip up.

    I can’t say it is all in my head, but I can’t blame the office for being crazy cold like I believed it must have been before I got the thermometer. Now I just put on sweaters without complaint and blame sitting all day long. I look forward to colder weather where I can wear long sleeve shirts and sweaters without working up a sweat on the 2 block walk from the parking garage to the office.

    1. Elizabeth*

      When you’re feeling cooler, is there a breeze from the HVAC blowing on you? We’ve noticed that that makes nearly as much difference as the actual temperature.

      1. The IT Manager*

        There’s no obvious breeze. I agree with Judy that it can be worse after lunch especially if it was accomapnied by a cold drink; although, I prefer my drinks without ice.

        1. Cath in Canada*

          You get colder after eating because your digestive system pulls more blood into the core of your body to help digest and absorb the food. This means there’s less blood circulating outside the core, so less warmth getting to your extremities.

    3. Sadsack*

      Our buildings always have air blowing, or circulating as the maintenance guys say, but the room temperature will read 70 degrees. It will be 70 degrees whether the air is circulating or not, but it definitely feels colder when it is circulating.

    4. Madtown Maven*

      Are you in a position/office where you could just put something on your neck when you’re cold? Just a wearing a scarf can make a huge difference in how your body regulates temperature. I sit under a vent (on which I’ve installed an air deflector), and when I get cold, I throw on a light scarf and feel much better.

      1. Nanc*

        Thumbs up to scarves! I have quite the collection now and my blue-collar grease-monkey brother is surprisingly adept at picking out great colors and patterns as birthday gifts. I even keep a couple in my desk drawer for those summer days when the AC never shuts off.

      2. The IT Manager*

        Hmmm … honestly I have been eyeing the scarves at Target. Maybe your post will inspire me to buy one and give it try.

        I am mostly just unsure of how to wear accessories.

        2. Lauren*

          I’m glad its not just me. Scarves, hats, weirdly long necklaces or hair stuff thats not just a grip of a hair tie confuse me greatly.

      3. Natalie*

        Scarves are great. I’ve also switched from pumps to short boots as I noticed my feet get cold. No exposed skin with short boots, plus I can wear warmer or cooler socks as the season demands.

    5. Judy*

      I’m nearly always cold after lunch, and I attribute that to blood flow to the stomach. I usually get up and go for a short walk, then put on my sweater. I did have an office once that would get down to 62. I was wearing fingerless gloves and scarves there.

    6. Chuchundra*

      I my old control room, I used to say that it’s not the temperature, it’s the wind chill factor. There was a strong breeze blowing in from the vents and traveling from one room to the next. Just looking at the air temperature didn’t give a real picture of the environment.

      And sometimes you just feel colder/hotter during different parts of the day. When I work the overnights I often feel cold around two or three in the morning even though the temperature remains the same.

      Your body has a natural, daily cycle. That’s not the same as it being “in your head”

    7. AndersonDarling*

      We ran a similar experiment and found the thermometer did not change. Then we added a gauge to check the humidity. We discovered that air was so dry that it felt much colder. We started humidifying the air and the temperature balanced out throughout the day.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Clever observation.

        I noticed at home that my chairs were cold and it made me cold. Well, I do not have cushions or pillows on them. (Furniture seems to retain coolness longer.) I started with a cushion on the seat and that helped some. Then I put a pillow on the back and that clinched it. I do feel warmer.

    8. INTP*

      Does it correlate to your activity levels at all? I’m convinced that my body produces no heat when I’m entirely sedentary. I wind up needing gloves and a coat in lecture halls and offices in many offices though I doubt the temps ever get below 67 or so (whereas if I go for a walk in a long-sleeve t-shirt in that temp, I overheat). Getting up and walking around more often before you get cold may help.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I am entirely sedentary at my job. I work virtually with a team so all day in front of a computer IMing, emailing, telecoms, etc. I do try to stand up and move a bit and that can help – especially a walk around the block because the temps are still in the 70s.

  14. NK*

    My coworker seriously dropped the ball on some work he was responsible for, and we found out about it yesterday at 3pm when it needed to be done by last night. He was assigned this work a month ago. My boss ended up reassigning it to me, causing me to stay at the office until 10:30pm and doing passable work, but not something I’m proud of. My boss was fine with the quality of work because he understood the situation, but I am seriously pissed at my coworker. I actually had a lot of bandwidth earlier in the week and easily could have taken this on if I knew about it earlier. This is far from the first time this kind of thing has happened with him. Another coworker told him he should be buying me lunch (in front of me), and he made all these excuses about how he was working off an old assignment sheet and didn’t realize he was assigned this task. Never sincerely apologized. The question is, do I say anything to our boss (and if so, what)? Obviously he is aware of the situation, but I don’t know if I should say anything else. We’re all aware that this coworker sucks, but this is the first time it’s affected me in such a big way.

    1. Wilton Businessman*

      It doesn’t hurt to talk to your boss, but he already knows. The question is why does he allow it to happen?

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Right, I think this is the boss’ issue to handle. NK, if you feel like the boss isn’t protecting you adequately from circumstances like these, you can talk to them, but they’re probably not going to change, and you might want to either resign yourself to occasionally earning gold stars at the expense of your sanity or finding another employer.

        But then, it could just be that this is the first time that that employee dropped the ball, and the boss had to let them do so one time before closely monitoring them on the level of, say, a new intern. Since you picked up the slack, it would be nice if the boss let you know more details, but you shouldn’t feel entitled to too much information on their process, especially if it involves possible personnel actions against another employee.

      2. KellyK*

        Absolutely. If you have a good relationship with your boss, that’s how you can bring it up to him. Not in an accusatory way but a “What can we do to prevent this in the future?” And if his plan for the future is that you just pitch in at the last minute, then at least you know to run far, far away.

        1. Puddin*

          And mention that you are not especially proud of the work quality and had you known he needed help earlier, you could have fit this into your schedule without compromising your other tasks.

          Maybe Boss knew all along and did not want to bother you while he held out hope against hope that your co-worker would pull through.

          I also think that it would be fair for you to firmly but with the utmost profession remind Co-worker that, ‘We all are responsible for knowing what is on the most recent assignment sheet. When you drop the ball you impose on the team. Let me know if you need help in the future.’

    2. Trixie*

      Does your boss ask for regular updates, maybe in weekly meetings? There’s no reason he should not have known this guy dropped the ball. Unless the coworker BS-ing about making progress in which case this should be a serious mark on his record.

      2. NK*

        No, we don’t have that kind of structure. My boss is great in many ways and I like him and my job a lot, most of the time. But I was pretty frustrated that no one even knew this work wasn’t getting done. Neither my boss, the other manager involved, nor the project coordinator realized that this was not on his radar. It’s frustrating for the rest of us on the team because we feel like there aren’t any consequences for him, but my boss is discreet enough that I suspect there are consequences behind the scenes. At the very least, he has basically no chance of career growth, and I know he feels like he deserves a promotion (he is clearly in lala land on that one – he is the lowest performer on our fairly large team).

    3. Elkay*

      Do you have regular meetings with your boss? That would be the best time to bring it up. That way you can make it part of “what happened this month” not “must discuss this now”. Otherwise I’d let it go, there’s not a lot that can be done, unless there is going to be more work to be done on the same piece of work in which case you can ask your boss who’s going to take responsibility for it and raise your concerns.

      This will probably be burnt into your memory but it’s worth making a note of exactly what happened in an email to yourself so when review time comes round you can speak to your boss about it then.

      You have my sympathy, the closest I got to flipping out at my previous job was when something similar happened to me (and that place was a whole heap of crazy pants). Mine was me saying “If you want me to do this tell me know because I will not have time to do it later”, I asked several times and got nothing until “later” arrived and I very firmly told them I would not be doing it because I did not have time, as I had told them three months ago. Admittedly I was working my notice at that point so I was little more open than I might have been!

    4. HAnon*

      I feel your pain. A team member of mine is supposed to be managing all of our projects, but is not really cut out for the role…leaving me trying to put out fires everywhere over the past 48 hours while my boss is on vacation. Fun friday! But my boss is aware of the situation, so we’ll see what happens… :p Coworker is also not here today, so I’m having to dig through old emails and etc to try to understand WTH is going on with all these projects.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I am having a drowning headless chicken moment at work. What doesn’t help is the assumption that all the extra work can be pulled in, when it can’t.

    5. LiteralGirl*

      Why did your boss reassign it to you rather than telling your coworker to get it done? He should have been the one staying until 10:30 last night finishing it. I don’t get the logic.

      1. NK*

        Because he had other stuff that was also urgent to get done. He did leave before me which I was pretty peeved about, but only by 15 minutes or so.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      NK, sometimes in these situations you can earn major, major points with the boss. Don’t blow it by steaming at your coworker. Realize that his failure could be a serious gain for you.

      Remain the calm, cool, collected you. Go to the boss and say “I don’t mind helping out where possible. But our tardiness on X could potentially hurt us. I was wondering what we are going to do going forward to prevent another occurrence. I don’t feel right about not handing over my best effort. [Or fill in with some things similar that is important to you but has nothing to do with coworker.]”
      Approach it from the angle that you are concerned for the group and your work as a department. Big picture focus. If you focus on your need to choke this person it will detract from all the good you just did. It’s tough, I know.

      IF, notice am saying IF, later you find out that the boss has blown you off then move to plan b where you have a conversation about how the worker is impacting you. Take the high road first. See if you have gained a new level of respect or whatever from the boss first.

  15. Elizabeth*

    I’m squeeing inside. I signed paperwork this week for my first raise in 5 years, which amounts to about a 40% increase. And, my job description changed, so that I’m going to be supervising 7 other people (which hasn’t been announced yet). It is effective on next Monday!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Congrats. I hope you take part of your new raise next pay period and get yourself a treat!

    10. StudentA*

      Wow! Way to go!

      Think now about what you want to do with the extra money. Maybe have your employer do direct deposit some of the extra cash into your savings. Just a tip, ’cause this type of thing doesn’t happen every day!

  16. Retail drone*

    I currently work in a large department store. I just transferred departments and most of the time I’m only working with another employee who was been there 10+ years. He’s a peer in the organizational structure however he keeps dictating what tasks I should do. These are basic upkeep tasks that we both have to do but he keeps trying to delegate them to me such as him telling me, “Can you go fold those shirts over there.” That is task for anybody working the department, not for him to tell me to do it while he rings out customers.

    I’m pretty sure this is because of his seniority and he did have to do a little training with me but he is in no way, shape, or form a superior to me. What is the polite AAM way of saying, “You are not my manager and stop telling me what to do.”

    1. Artemesia*

      I’d probably pick another task and say ‘you might want to go ahead and do those shirts because is am going to be straighten up the sock display.’ And then a little later say ‘I noticed the sweaters are out of order again, could you straighten those while I check the fitting rooms to see if there are things we need to put away.’ If nothing else it will confuse him and make you feel better.

    2. Judy*

      I would think (from my haven’t worked retail except GS cookie sales in many, many years experience) that the two of you should work out a rotation. First half of the hour, you do the register and as many close to the register tasks as can be done and he does the outlying tasks. From X:30 to Y:00, you do the outlying tasks and he does the register and the close in tasks. It allows both of you time to do all the tasks, and moves you around a bit.

      I would hope the two of you could come to an agreement on how to work as a team. But I know it’s not a perfect world.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      The advice given so far is good, but if you have a supervisor who you feel you can turn to, you can ask them if Wakeen is supposed to be assigning you tasks due to seniority, or if you’re supposed to work out the distribution between the two of you. That’s the polite, non-tattling way of asking them to clear this up for you. :) A smart supervisor will figure out what is going on based on that question.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It could be that he is supposed to be doing that and no one knows it. I have seen managers forget to mention that type of stuff.

    4. Elsajeni*

      In your previous department, how would you and your peers have worked out the distribution of that kind of work? Because in my retail experience, the way your new coworker is doing it would have been pretty normal — if there was a manager around, we might wait for them to tell us what to do, but otherwise, it would be completely normal for one of us to say “Hey Sarah, can you fold those shirts while I take care of these go-backs?” or whatever. Basically, I guess what I’m thinking is, it’s certainly possible that he’s doing this in an obnoxious and bossy way, but it’s also possible that it’s just the way things are done in this department and it’s different from what you’re used to. A couple tests that might help tell which: Can you imagine him saying “Can you go fold those shirts?” in a way that wouldn’t bother you, or would you find it annoying regardless? Do you feel like he would find it acceptable for you to tell him to go fold the shirts, if you were busy with something else and noticed it needed doing?

      1. Retail drone*

        First, thank you everybody for your suggestions.

        I can imagine ways it would be less annoying and I can imagine a time where it might be acceptable to ask him to do something. If he was busy with something and another matter needed immediate attention I would be ok with it. But it’s just him sitting around pretending to be my manager when he’s not. The problem is I moved to a much smaller department where it’s just him and me most of the time so I think he feels like defacto manager since he has been there about a decade and I have been at the store for 8 months and only in this department a couple weeks. In my old department there were a lot of us and always a clear manager to delegate.

      2. StudentA*

        I agree with Elsajeni.

        Another point: If he is a retail veteran, and he is that good at his job, you can take his bossiness with a grain of salt and really soak up all you can learn from him. Even if you don’t want to stay in retail, you can learn a lot from this type of person in regards to sales, business, customer service, productivity, merchandise presentation, etc. The best way to soak up this knowledge would be treating him as a quasi-mentor, which demonstrates you value his experience. Maybe he will back off a bit.

        Now, if you feel he is exploiting you, that is a different story. If he is disrespectful and arrogant, wait until the right time and ask if he would agree to using a different tone with you. If he gives you a hard time about it, go to your boss.

        1. Retail drone*

          He’s not really mentor material. He’s been there for so long because he’s a warm body who can show up on time and doesn’t steal from the store. Definitely not because of his expertise. He’s slow as molasses at doing anything and calls all women sweetie.

    5. Janis*

      Is he Captain Peacock? It sounds like he isn’t. I might put up with it for a little while, but that would chafe after a while. I think in time his little “Peacockisms” will become easier to ignore — like the upcoming Christmas season.

  17. Pontoon Pirate*

    Feelin’ overwhelmed, y’all. My boss is preparing to go on FMLA next week, and I’ve been tapped to be the “point person” in the department in the interim, meaning I will cover a variety of projects that she would normally own. Yet, my old position (I was also promoted to a new position that I’m not really ramped-up in yet) is not yet filled and I have my own job (now with its own expanded job description!) to cover. I know I’m not really doing the work of three positions, but it sure feels like it a lot of the time. I’m happy for the most part, but this week has just taken it out of me. Would be grateful for good juju today. :)

    1. Red*

      Best of luck to you, that sounds like a great deal of work to juggle at a very inopportune time. If things turn out well, though, it’ll look very good for you!

    2. fposte*

      If it has a link, any word that’s been associated with spam, or any mysterious combination that rouses the filter gods.

      2. Stephanie*

        The emails from a volunteer coordinator would always end up in my spam folders. Her name was Liliana, so I think Gmail learned to associate her name with spam male enhancement emails (as those emails often come from Lilianas, Adrianas, etc).

    3. Kelly L.*

      I’ve got one in moderation right now for an F-bomb, I think. Sometimes also if there’s a hyperlink.

    4. soitgoes*

      Mine get moderated when I link to shopping sites (for when people ask for comfy work attire or good coffee supplies, for example).

    5. Nervous Accountant*

      my comments are always under moderation, even though I never post links. Foul language? Idk.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        even though I don’t recall using harsh foul language in any of my posts. Is it my username? It’s never happened with any other username I’ve used before this one.

          1. Natalie*

            Maybe something about the email address? Perhaps there is a spam-triggering word hidden in it, or it’s flagged somehow?

            1. Sara*

              I’ve taken out my email and still happens. I’ve only started using this username recently, I used several others beforehand, and don’t recall it happening.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  I just figured out why. I had “vous” on the list of words that would trigger the spam filter because a while back there was an influx of French spam that all contained it. I was looking at your IP address as the trigger and it wasn’t that — it was “nerVOUS” in your user name. I’ve removed “vous” from the list now since the French spam has subsided, so feel free to go back to using it if you’d like.

  19. Future Analyst*

    Any ideas for how to address being unemployed for 10 months (to be home with my son) without confirming that I have a kid? I used to work in the legal field, and am trying to transition to a more technical field. I’ve been working on a certificate in database administration, and have been pointing to that as what I’ve been doing in the meantime. But in interviews, I’m not sure how to address the question of why I left/what I’ve been doing. Also, any ideas for how to stress that I’m technically inclined, even though I worked in law and have a degree in English?

    1. fposte*

      What’s the reason you’re so determined to avoid mentioning you have a kid? I think it would be weirder to try to pretend you don’t, and a kid is one of the best justifications for 10 months off that you’re going to find.

      1. Diet Coke Addict*

        +1

        Even if you don’t mention it in the interview, wouldn’t it come up eventually, like in your benefits paperwork, or conversation?

      2. Future Analyst*

        Not really that I want to avoid mentioning it altogether, just want to avoid the stigma attached to being a mom. I think staying home with my son would signal to certain people that I’m not committed to my work, when in reality, I was looking to change fields anyway, and don’t foresee a lot of conflict between my work and family (my husband has a very flexible work arrangement, and could easily attend to any issues that arise).

        1. fposte*

          I’d suggest owning it rather than ducking it. Just be matter-of-fact. I think most industries are pretty used to people taking time off after they have a kid (10 months isn’t a lot), whereas a mysterious 10-month absence for no explicable reason is an eyebrow-raiser.

        2. Lily in NYC*

          You could always say it was a “caregiving situation” – people will automatically assume it was for an elderly relative but it’s not a lie at all – you were giving care to your kid.

        3. Cleopatra Jones*

          I get what Future Analyst is trying to say…technical fields can be hard for women.
          Sometimes, it seems like the people in IT/technology try to disqualify your knowledge because ‘you’re a girl’ (that’s the tone, I hear when it’s happened to me) and you couldn’t possibly know anything about technology, math, or computers.

          Just own your choice, matter of factly and move on. You can always tell them that your decision to change careers coincided with having your child. You decided that it was the perfect time to focus on getting additional technical skills and staying at home with your child.

      3. Student*

        Statistically, she has a better chance of getting a job if they don’t know she’s married or have kids. She also has a better chance at a higher salary if they don’t notice she’s a mother. Once she’s in the door, it’s unlikely they’ll retroactively reduce her salary when they find out she has kids.

        There have been lots of studies, and mothers get a harsh employment penalty for having kids, whereas fathers get a bonus. Keep it out of the spotlight if you can. Just be careful not to step into lying territory.

        If there is a valid secondary reason for your absence beyond your son, go with that explanation. Maybe your son was the driving factor, but there were factors two and three that kept you out longer than you would’ve been otherwise. If your son is the only reason, then you’re pretty stuck with that and you have to hope people don’t ask. You can try to deflect by not answering the exact question – someone asks why you were out so long, and you talk for a bit about how hard you searched to find this great job opportunity instead of why you left your last job, but that can backfire.

    2. Anjum*

      you could just say you paused your work in order to “attend to a personal family matter” which could mean anything – taking care of an elder, for example.

      given your username i assume you want to not mention having a child so they don’t consciously or subconsciously question your willingness and ability to work long hours and “do the job.” some may not agree with the approach but i know that biases can be very real even if subconscious – you do what you need to do. apologies if i’m totally off base, too!

    3. Robin*

      1. Taking care of a family member could cover it, or dealing with a family issue that has been resolved.

      2. Do you have any volunteer work / hobbies, etc. that highlight your technical inclinations? Were there technical aspects to your previous work that aren’t obvious in your job title, but can be explained in your resume or cover letter? Do you have a good explanation worked out that lays out your own transition in interests?

    4. KellyK*

      As far as the second part of that, are there techy things you’ve done that you can add to your resume, even if they aren’t work experience? Volunteering or anything? If you haven’t, maybe start?

    5. Kate*

      What? You should be proud of your child! Do you really want to work somewhere where they don’t accept working mothers? You might get a job earlier, but you wouldn’t feel good in a place like that, I bet.

    6. Jillociraptor*

      Hmm. I understand (and H-A-T-E) the impulse and need to downplay parental responsibilities. But also you’re still gonna have a kid when you get the job, right? So it might be helpful and illuminating to see how they deal with it now, so you don’t hit a snag 6 months from now when you need flexibility to care for your kiddo.

  20. Calla*

    I’ve been refreshing for this!

    So, I have started the process to get a reduction on my chest (phrasing this way so I don’t get caught in moderation). Right now I have really good healthcare and PTO so I figure now’s the time! It’s not scheduled yet–I have the first consultation December 5. But, I’m already thinking about how to handle it at work. I know I will likely need 2 weeks off, which I have, and am hoping I can schedule it around Christmas or early January, when people are taking vacation anyway. I also know the clothing transition trick–wear clothes that de-emphasize my chest the few weeks before the surgery, change something else before I come back, etc. so the change is not as noticeable (I’ll be going from DD+ to a B/C hopefully).

    Anyone else done this and have any tips? How long did you take off? Did you work from home for any of it (I can do that in my job)? How did you manage reactions? Anything else I can expect that I’m not thinking of? I’m an admin, so it’s a desk job, in a casual office environment.

    1. Ash (the other one)*

      I haven’t had this done, but do you really care if someone notices? I would just react that 1) they shouldn’t be looking at my chest, and 2) I had a chest reduction. End of story. The point of it is to be confident in yourself rather than for other people, right? So I wouldn’t spend too much time or energy on this.

        1. Calla*

          Yeah, there are certain coworkers I would probably be okay with telling, but for the most part, I do not want people to notice what happened. From what I’ve heard, it usually goes unremarked on, but that doesn’t mean I want to disregard any tricks that take attention away from it.

      2. CoffeeLover*

        Different people are comfortable with different things. Personally, I’d be totally fine telling people I got a chest reduction. It’s a surgery that’s done purely for health reasons, and I don’t find that embarrassing. I find very few things embarrassing though and if people have the nerve to ask me about it, I have the nerve to tell them about it ;).

    2. ella*

      I don’t have any advice for this, but good luck and congratulations! I have a few friends who’ve gone through it and they’re all much happier and more comfortable now.

      1. Calla*

        It seems to have one of the highest satisfaction rights! I’m excited, despite being terrified of surgery.

    3. straws*

      I have a coworker who went through the same thing. She was my employee at the time and we’re both female, so she was comfortable telling me what was going on. I think a few other employees knew what it was for, but the company-wide reason she was out was just for surgery. She was out for about a week, with a little part time work. The main issue had to do with needing to wear very support undergarments that could rub a big, so occasionally she did work from home after returning just for the comfort level. Her size change was similar to yours, but I honestly don’t know that anyone noticed the difference. She never mentioned any uncomfortable conversations or questions to me, at least. Good luck!

      2. Calla*

        Thanks! Yes, I didn’t realize until I started doing more research recently that you have to wear the specialty/support bra for a while, which does seem like something I should consider with clothes/comfort.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          My best friend did it and very few people noticed (or if they did, they didn’t say anything). Never understimate how unobservant people are, myself included. My coworker who I am friends with and have sat next to for 8 years shaved his long-term beard and I didn’t notice.

      3. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Exactly this. A good friend of mine had been wanting to do this for years, had the surgery scheduled, doctor flaked, took her almost two years to find someone else. You’re just out for surgery, and if people ask if it’s serious, just smile and say “No, just necessary” or similar. You don’t have to give details. For all they know, you’re getting a bunion removed. My friend went from something like a G to a C, but honestly, very few people noticed unless they’d been specifically told. Congratulations (it’s a big step!) and good luck!

    4. Natalie*

      I’ve never done it, but a friend in high school did and FWIW you really couldn’t tell. I believe she went from an H to a D. I was kind of vaguely aware that she looked different but I couldn’t figure out exactly why and I didn’t spend a ton of time thinking about it. If people she didn’t know well asked, she just said she lost some weight.

      I’ve made fairly obvious changes to my face and head area (2 piercings, cut off all my hair twice, got glasses at 26, routinely switch between glass and contacts) and lots of people just don’t notice. Including my parents! Sometimes I’ll mention the change casually and I’ll get a sudden “that’s what it is! I couldn’t figure out what was different about you.”

      2. Not So NewReader*

        A relative had a double mastectomy. Even though she lost quite a bit, you really could not figure out why she looked different. So Natalie is correct. You could probably say that you had surgery and lost weight because of the surgery and most people would buy that.

        One factor that you may not be thinking about or maybe you are. Because my relative felt better about herself she carried herself differently. I think that her new found confidence was a further distraction from the physical changes she went through. People were more involved in how “You look great” than actually figuring out why.

    5. lifes a beach*

      I am not sure you need to explain anything, unless it drastically changes your appearence, or you normally wear figure hugging clothes. People probably will not even notice and if they do I hope they would not be rude enough to ask you about it point blank.

      on the otherhand, At my job there was a time, where several of the younger women took time off (not at the same time, but it seemed like it was the thing to do for about a year), and came back with obvious “enhancements”. They did not have to explain anything.

    6. Gwen Soul*

      Congrats! My mom had this done a few years ago and it was the best thing ever for her. Just one comment, 2 weeks is REALLY optimistic to going back full time. She took a good 6 weeks to really feel recovered and 3 moths to be back 100%. She was in her 50’s so if you are younger you might bounce back faster, but have a plan to ease in if you need it. She was at a desk job and it still wasn’t pretty. It is really major surgery.

      Also get loose shirts and sports bras to start with, ones that zip up the front so you don’t have to reach around much. Wait until you are a few weeks out to buy any clothes as there will be swelling and shifting for a while.

      1. Calla*

        Thanks!! Time off is something I’ll definitely discuss with the surgeon and have realistic plans for after that, but I’ve seen women my age go back after 2 weeks or so so that’s about what I’m hoping for (especially with my schedule–on top of work, I also go to school and am planning a wedding, so I can’t spend 3 months at home!).

        1. Puddin*

          You might not be able to all three though. Your doctor should prescribe your time off for however much time you think you need. Better to ask for it and not need it. If you have STD – oh wait, that looks wrong – Short Term Disability insurance use it! Trust me, you do not want to under perform or be perceived as under performing while trying to recuperate because you wanted to ‘do it all’.

          Best wishes, people I have known that had the procedure were all very happy with the results!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Echoing this one. Granted my relative was older so that gives you an advantage. But do not plan a bunch of other stuff AND this, too, within a narrow time frame. It’s too much.
            There’s lots of not-so-obvious stuff here. Like how long will it be before you can return to driving. Wardrobe is going to need a change over. And there is all that paperwork for the insurance/surgery/etc.

    7. Jam Wheel*

      I had this surgery done abut 15 years ago and it was, without a doubt, one of the best things I ever did. Same size as you and oh – just wait until you can shop in the “pretty” section of the undergarment area, rather than the industrial-grade side!

      I would suggest being aware of any habitual movements you do now that require you to lift your arms above your head – like move your cereal if you keep it on a top shelf, if your winter sweaters are high up, etc.

      I did mine while still in college, but I can’t recall just when I did it. I want to say it was just after the holidays. After the surgery drugs wear off (day or two) you should be just fine to work, but definitely keep it easy on yourself. You will need to change dressings so if you can work from home that would be best, especially if you can work in a prone position on the couch, for the first 3-5 days or so. Do not misjudge how long it can take for anesthesia drugs to get out of your system and recover from surgery – I remember still being tired two weeks later, when I went back to school. I don’t think I fully recovered/was cleared for strenuous exercise until maybe three months later.

      I don’t recall what I did for clothing – but if its winter then sweaters cover up many sins :) I doubt anyone will call out the obvious, and frankly, in my family, we are STILL wondering if my aunt had one done 5+ years ago, because its sort of rude to flat out ask someone.

      I would recommend having some sort of cheap cotton bra in your new size handy, one that you can get stained before buying the cute new stuff. Walmart worked great for that!

      Good luck!

      1. Calla*

        Thanks, this is super helpful!! Re: movement, I’ve talked about this with my fiancee (who is so supportive and excited for me) and she would make sure she’s off work the first few days I’m home so she can help me, and then we’d also make sure I have snacks, etc. within reach!

        I’m glad to hear that my expectation of going back after 2 weeks isn’t too unrealistic. Making sure I take it easy though shouldn’t be a problem.

        And I cannot WAIT to buy small cotton bras!

        1. Janis*

          I, too, need twin I-beam suspension and would love to not lead with my chest, so to speak. Just last month the lady in the office next to me got her chest reduced. She went from about a DD to a B/C. She was out for about 10 days. On her first day back she asked me if anyone was staring at her chest. I answered, “You mean anyone … besides me? Because you look great!” She just laughed. Let us know in a few months how it’s going.

          1. Calla*

            I’m excited to hear of another person who went back after about 2 weeks!

            And I’ll try, if anyone cares enough for me to update :) The next big hurdle after the consultation is finding out if my insurance will cover it!

    8. Ashley*

      Adding to the chorus of “no one will notice”. One of my coworkers had a reduction done a couple years ago – she was out for surgery, came back, I think worked PT for a week or so? – and I had seriously NO clue, and I normally pride myself on being really observant – I noticed when anyone gets a haircut or loses weight, and I didn’t notice at all. When she told me I was surprised!

      And, in the reverse – one of my best friends got implants and was worried about coworker’s reactions – the only comment she got was from the cleaning lady who told her that “her hair looks different – shinier”. We joke that her surgeon must have given her a deep conditioning treatment when she was out :)

    9. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Best decision I ever made.

      The only negative: I was not prepared for the recovery time. Mine was 25 years ago and I’ve no idea how things have advanced in that time, but I needed someone with me and to wait on me for several days. I was single and living alone at the time but had *fortunately* arranged for friends to pick me up and let me stay the night. I stayed a week.

      After the first week, I got much better and in a few weeks was right as rain.

      The bra shopping, omg, how wonderful was that. You will be so very very happy!

      Re work, most people won’t notice. They will think you’ve lost weight.

      Just plan enough time off and don’t push your recovery!

      1. Calla*

        Yes, I’ve been reading blogs at a website called RealSelf and watching youtube videos of women who have had it done (but not too many go into returning to work), and having someone there to care for you the first few days was definitely a theme! That’s definitely part of my planning.

        Thanks!! It’s been really encouraging how many people say they have done it or know someone who did and it was the best decision of their life.

    10. azvlr*

      Truly the best thing I ever did for myself! I did it during the summer when I wasn’t teaching so by the time school started again, I was back to about 80% function. It was tricking putting up decorations on high walls for the start of school.
      People thought I lost weight, because I did. Once I had the surgery (the doctor liposuctioned my sides under the pits) I continued to lose weight for about a year afterwards. I don’t know if this will be your experience, too. I just know that it was a life-changer for me in so many ways. I felt more confident in clothes and it really changed how people interacted with me, and thus how I saw myself.
      I was out of commission, for two solid weeks. I couldn’t drive during that time because I needed to take meds for pain. Don’t make the mistake of letting your pain meds wear off before you take them again, especially at first. Stay on schedule with them. You will heal better that way. Best of luck!

    11. Hlyssande*

      I had one in 2008 and while my surgeon was terrible, I can’t recommend it enough as far as back problems and clothing fit issues go. Just make sure you do your homework with your surgeon! Ask to see their portfolio and ask about their failure rate of anything. Most especially, ask how they determine cup size. I got hit hard on that – asked to be a D cup (and he only asked me the day OF the surgery), and I barely fill out a B most days, because that doc went strictly on measurement to nipple from collarbone and nothing else. He blamed it on bra manufacturers (among other things he failed at). Like I said, the surgeon I had was terrible – I got suckered in when he was positive he could get my insurance to pay – which he did, and didn’t ask questions I wish I had.

      Protip: If you do end up with some complications and blood pooling and they do the needle thing to allow some of it to release, instead of going with expensive gauze pads that you have to change frequently, go ahead and stick an unscented maxi pad to your bra. Seriously. Saved me a lot of money.

      I was out for two weeks total, I think.

      Good luck! I hope you have a fantastic outcome!

  21. Sandrine (France)*

    Update to the Nelly/Perry thing of last week:

    So as I told you, Nelly only had a verbal warning. Perry had his pre-termination meeting yesterday and while he certainly is to blame, the boss was rather… weird.

    So Nelly asks Perry about how it went down, and Perry is pissed because he thinks someone ratted him out (for example, he’s the one who showed Nelly how to cheat the system) . He strongly implies he thinks Nelly did it, and she says she only gave his name when chatting with coworkers who were also in trouble, but she didn’t say it to any bosses (even in her apology e-mail she didn’t name him) . Perry said the boss told him a female coworker wasn’t shy about mentioning him (yay bosses, way to foster a good morale and start rumors between workers, woot woot) .

    I got this from text screencaps from Nelly, but when I talked to Perry myself later in the day, while he doesn’t seem to realize how dire his actions were, he does grasp the “actions have consequences” things and did mention that he wasn’t shy about telling them exactly why anyone would use the “tricks” (work conditions getting worse, and so on) and of course, they didn’t like it.

    So that’s about it for now. Oh, and of COURSE the powers that be decided that sending an e-mail about the trick that started it all in the first place was good…. on Monday or Tuesday maybe. As in, you have done all your dirty work scaring people and NOW you tell them not to use this.

    Ha. Good riddance for me, really :) .

  22. Trixie*

    Did anyone catch this story on NPR this week? “Can Changing How You Sound Help You Find Your Voice?” You can also read it online. Discusses how gender bias in how Americans perceive feminine voices: as insecure, less competent and less trustworthy. Voice coach interviews is fascinating, and enlightening.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/10/14/354858420/can-changing-how-you-sound-help-you-find-your-voice?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2038

    1. Tinker*

      Heh. I joke about how if I just transitioned already, it’d probably benefit my career. Except, it’s not actually a joke >_>

      1. Anonsie*

        I joke that the only reason I haven’t is because the life of an extremely short man is probably not a whole lot better than the life of a very short woman, but I am also not really joking.

    2. chewbecca*

      I think I’m fairly similar to the lawyer they talked to in that I’m short and have a fairly high-pitched voice. I’m also very young-looking. I do feel like sometimes it affects how seriously people take me.

      I have found recently that I can speak in a slightly lower register that seems less Peppy 13 Year Old, which helps in in-person interactions. Sadly, I still tend to use my default voice when answering the phones at work, because I struggle with sounding friendly otherwise.

      I agree with the up-talk issue. Rightly or wrongly, I tend to question the authority of people who use up-talk. It sounds like they’re not sure about what they’re talking about.

      1. Red*

        I’m short, high-pitched, and look younger than my age. People I work with over email tend to take me more seriously than those I work with over the phone or in person–it can be a little frustrating, sometimes. I find myself using up-talk on the phone in particular, especially when handling an aggressive caller, to try to ameliorate some of that phone-rage.

    3. Anonsie*

      Oh thank you for reminding me, that seriously made me want to find an SLP who does that kind of work and try it out for myself. I’m very small and I get a big kick out of having a mismatchedly deep voice (which I have intentionally cultivated) now all I need are the speech patterns to really throw people off.

      I get why this bothered some people. It bothered me at first, too, before I’d gone through the whole story. The idea that being professional means being less female, and that the burden of responsibility is on us to achieve that, is easily objectionable. But there’s a middle ground for me at least, and I suppose for this woman, where using subtle influencers like that to reinforce your authority doesn’t feel like a compromise at all. And it’s not in any way to please people who don’t deserve it– I feel like it’s more a way of momentarily tricking them into forgetting their biases. I’m happy to try to sound more authoritative as they’ll hear it. I’ll laugh all the way to the bank.

    4. Puddin*

      I did see the article and vacillated between disgust at the ‘high voice’ dissenters and her eagerness to change and understanding that it just might not be related to a sexism issue but really an issue of being audible i.e. heard and understood.

      Long story short, I would not have made the same decision the lawyer did. I might have taken elocution or even some theater classes but changing the pitch of my voice is too far in my book.

      This piece also reinforces just how ingrained the (straight white) male perspective is as the dominant cultural driver in the US.

  23. Nervous Accountant*

    I hope I’m not limited to one topic/conversation :]

    In August I had posted about my boss and new job. Alot of you confirmed my fears that he was an emotionally volatile and verbally abusive person; while I got paid, it was still quite awkward to get my paycheck.

    Since then I actually left the job, went away for a couple of weeks (for other reasons). I had one paycheck due, and it was a chore trying to get it from them, a whole lot of run around …..21 days, 30 emails, escalation to the boss, the “it’s in the mail” routine before I finally got my check and deposited it.

    First thing I did when I came back home was apply for jobs and apply for unemployment.

    I know the general rules on receiving unemployment regarding quitting/how much you earned etc. When I filled out the application online they asked for details on why I quit. I put down the truth about the work environment (angry and volatile, payroll issues, the final paycheck issue) but that I had given my boss a completely different reason (a detailed email stating I was going out of town to attend to personal matters). Unfortunately, aside from the final paycheck issue, I don’t have any written proof of how the work environment was.

    I am a little worried. I know DOL reaches out to former employers. I’m worried as to whether this will have any affect on my future job prospects somehow?
    The (former) boss had described an ex-employee as scum of the earth, scourge on the system, deadbeat etc, bc of a DOL issue..I’ve been in dispute with one employer vs unemployment before (I think I won it?), and it was such a shitty ordeal that I resolved to NOT ever go back on it ever again.
    But….bad luck.

    I know looking at my job history it LOOKS like I’m that kind of person and this is my second claim and may potentially be the second time having problems w an employer, but I’m really not a lazy deadbeat…..

    I guess I’m just a little anxious/worried about this whole thing. Am I overthinking it or right to be worried ???

    1. fposte*

      What’s the mechanism by which you think this could affect your future employment? Were you counting heavily on a reference from the crazy boss and think that contact from UI would make him change his mind? I’m not sure his would have been a reference to count on anyway. Aside from that, UI isn’t really relevant to a job application. Hiring managers have no idea if you received UI or fed yourself by selling your Picasso collection.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        No it wasn’t the reference.

        Last year I started receiving unemployment and began working PT a month later. When I switched to full time, I stopped claiming. They asked me about my new FT employer, including company name, address, ph # etc. I’m not sure if they contacted my (at the time, present) employer or not, but I guess I’m overthinking it.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yep. You’re over-thinking it. Call up unemployment and ask why they did that. They probably just needed to record that you found FT work for their pool of statistics that they keep.

    2. Smilingswan*

      You’re over-thinking. Future employers will not know that you received unemployment unless you tell them. You can just tell them you left the job because it was a bad fit, or something of that nature. The only problem you might have is if you need this boss to provide a reference for you. There’s not much you can do about that unless you want to work there forever.

    3. Red*

      I’m glad to hear you got paid! I hope you didn’t help with the payroll (that was you, wasn’t it?). UI won’t affect your future employability, even if you have a conflict, but I don’t know if I would use that guy as a reference were I in your shoes.

      1. Sara aka NV*

        Yes, it was me. And no I didn’t have to do anything, except go after the accountant/escalate it to the owner. Their solution was I have a phone conference or come in inperson and help….had to remind them several times I was overseas and didn’t have access to either.

        1. Red*

          How uncomfortable (and what bad judgment on their part!). I’m glad you’re out of that situation.

    4. Ashley*

      I am the lucky (sarcasm) unemployment person for my company, so I get everything – new claims, audits, etc, etc, etc. Every once in a while (it used to be less common but as UI is being tapped dry it’s becoming more frequent) I’ll get a letter/form from a state’s UI division requesting start dates/wages for a new employee to verify that they appropriately reported their start date to UI – and I fill the form out and forget about it .2 seconds later.

      Don’t worry about it.

      1. Sara aka NV*

        Oooh, glad to se the other side of this! Is that all you have to do? What about in the situation where a claimant reports a hostile environment? Or is that meant to be confidential or something?

  24. karis*

    Hi! So, I work with someone who talks loudly about politics and Obama. Especially now about Ebola. This guy is not here all the time. I really find it annoying and distractive. He doesn’t talk to me about it, but everyone in the office visits him to talk about it. I don’t know what to do. He knows my political views (which are usually opposite of his) and he seems to politicize everythang. I don’t think I can confront him, because like I said he doesn’t speak to me directly. He is just very loud and very opinionated. Any advice?

      1. karis*

        He is the regional something. He is high up there but I am not under him. The thing is he’s been here for years and years and years. I’ve talked to him before about gay bashing but I just don’t know if this would be something I can speak up about. If I should say something what would be most appropriate. He seems to have a temper but has not exploded on me so far. I am guessing because I am a female. Any advice?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I think it’s totally reasonable to say something, either to him or someone else. You could talk to your own manager (or even potentially HR, depending on how they work at your company) and frame it as, “It’s distracting and a little unsettling to hear inflammatory political conversations going on so frequently. Can we keep the politics out of work?”

    2. Larisa*

      There is guy in my office who is very religious and it’s very off-putting because I am not, but my managers won’t do anything because he is a top performer, but extending my sympathies because it is an uncomfortable and quite annoying situation.

    3. Anna*

      Every company I’ve worked for has had a policy about discussing politics. Mainly that it can create a hostile work environment and shouldn’t be done. Perhaps you could look at your employee handbook to see if there’s a policy there about political or religious discussions?

      1. karis*

        I looked over the policy and there doesn’t seem to be anything specific about politics or religion. However, I think I could argue that the language he uses is threatening in nature. He seems to get really fired up and loud about it.

    4. Karowen*

      My personal office instituted a politics “swear” jar. Not necessarily something you can do, and it only worked for us because we were all friends in spite of our political differences, but it saved my life last election.

      1. Karowen*

        (And by personal office, I mean the 5 people in my department that share an office. Not like I can close the door and have my own space.)

      2. chewbecca*

        This could work, actually. You could contribute a dollar anytime he goes off, and then after a set amount of time use the money you’ve collected to buy something fun. My fiance and are doing something similar with music to save money for our wedding.

      3. Red*

        That’s kind of a cool idea. And to run off of chewbacca’s, I might tell him in a friendly way that if he doesn’t cut back on the political talky-talky, I’ll donate to campaign of the candidate that opposes his favored candidate. ;) (Or party, and so on.)

    5. Cleopatra Jones*

      IME, I find that learning to ignore these types of people goes a loooooooooooong way in helping my sanity. I think this dude says those things to get a rise out of people (some people just enjoy inflicting anxiety on other people) because if he really believed everything he was spouting, he wouldn’t need validation from co-workers. So if you don’t have an HR department or some kind of company policy, go with ignoring him when he starts his tomfoolery. You will be so much happier at work!!!

      As an aside, I find it really sad when people blame all of their woes/unhappiness on the POTUS. Seriously, how is your happiness is affected by someone who you’ve never met (and probably never will meet)? I don’t understand.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is really good. OP, try to keep in mind that the guy ENJOYS getting upset and enjoys getting everyone else upset. I bet if you listen you will find a pattern of him saying something more outrageous than the previous outrageous statement he made. You will be able to see escalation.
        You might try something like “With so many difficult situations going on out there, I feel that it is very important to maintain a level head and a logical perspective.”

        ugh. I am not big on people who stir things. I am more impressed by people who try to find solutions and solve difficult problems. That is REAL talent.

        1. Cleopatra Jones*

          I wouldn’t even give him the courtesy of saying that because any kind of response from her will feed the troll. I guarantee after she says that very simple and level headed statement, he will start with even more outrageous statements.
          I have an office troll at my job (he tries to provoke people all the time with outrageous statements on just about anything you can think of), I’ve learned to not engage. If he says any thing other than hello or something about work, I walk away. Plain and simple. I don’t even give him the chance to finish his sentence because I DO NOT reward bad behavior with validation. He has learned where his professional boundaries are with me and my work life became a thousand times easier without his foolishness.

    1. Ash (the other one)*

      As checked out as you are, make sure to still do a good job in case you need a reference in the future! And congrats!!

      1. Jules*

        Thank you :)

        Not quite checked out, since I am anal about responsibilities. I got all the relevant work reassigned. Persoanlly, I am going to miss people that I work with. I just can’t work with them anymore, which is sad.

  26. Ali*

    I have an interview on Monday!!!!

    It’s for an online marketing job, and the position would be remote, though the job is based in the city I hope to move to eventually. I’m talking with the hiring manager over Skype. The pay isn’t much different from what I’m making now, but I am hoping to switch to a job that involves more marketing and social media, and this job has both aspects. The managers also understand the importance of mentorship and training and are willing to work with the right person.

    I know that nothing is a guarantee, but I e-mailed my resume and got a response almost right away. It was a huge boost, especially after just deleting a rejection e-mail from another position. Even if I don’t get this job, I’m hoping this interview will be the start of dominoes falling.

    3. Golden Yeti*

      I’m not sure why, but I keep not just my applications/job descriptions, but also most of my rejection e-mails. Maybe because at the end of all this searching, I’m kind of curious to see just how many applications I will have had to go through to move on.

  27. Anon4This*

    In my department, each team is to sort out holiday leave among themselves from what is available and for the 4th year in a row, I’m expected to take the least desirable periods because my bosses always gives priority to the parents of young children and I don’t have children. This is my 4th Christmas period being here yet a woman who has been here 6 months got to pick before me because she has children and I don’t think this is fair. I tried to say something to my boss and all she said was ‘you’ll understand when you have children’. I still don’t think it’s fair that I’m expected to take my Christmas leave in 3 chunks of 2 days in February because I don’t have children. What can I do?

    1. Laufey*

      Find a new job.

      You’ve spoken to your boss and she had no intention of even reconsidering the policy. Stay if you never want holiday leave until she leaves the Company, or polish up your resume.

      1. Anon4This*

        Been looking for a new job for over a year, it’s so soul destroying. Only still there because I need to pay rent.

        1. Artemesia*

          If you are stuck then readjust your head on this. Lobby for bigger chunks of holiday time off and do something cool. It isn’t fair but if you can’t do anything about it make lemonade.

      2. LCL*

        Yup. Your boss is awful. If she wasn’t awful, she would put something on paper for needed holiday coverage, and then decide how to rank time off requests. She is abdicating her responsibility by telling you to work it out among yourselves. Also if she actually wrote down her criteria for requests, she might see how awful her policy is.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yeah, that is blatant discrimination. It may not seem like a big deal to your boss, but if things go slightly sour, you could easily sue for discrimination. (Is “parent” a protected class?) And HR does not like to have these situations brewing.
        But…it is totally unfair because you have a family, even if you don’t have children. I bet you would like to see your parents, siblings, cousins, at the holidays. Your boss is pretty much saying that you will never get to have Christmas off. I’d be super upset.

        1. fposte*

          It’s not illegal discrimination at the federal level–you can’t easily sue for discrimination for any federal reason here. State and municipal laws may have different protections, of course.

    3. Anonsie*

      Wait, if you’re supposed to sort it out amongst yourselves, why is boss coming down with the Parents Only hammer here? Can you get one of the parents to trade you?

      And this is the wad in me coming out today, but next time she says “you’ll understand when you have children” I suggest replying “you’ll understand when your kids can’t get off work to come visit you.”

      2. Biff*

        The boss sounds vile. A truly entitled, horrible person. I just don’t think your suggestion has enough bite to it. What happens when she says this to someone that CAN’T have children, or LOST their children? That can only go extremely badly. Also, what sort of company pushes out Christmas leave until two months later? I thought the rule of thumb was that those who must work Christmas Eve/Christmas got New Years off.

        For what it’s worth, I understand — I am rarely able to get Solstice off (which is my ‘big’ holiday of the year) and it’s very disheartening some years. If it was NEVER an option because I didn’t have children, I think I might lose my &^%$. Holidays aren’t about children or the lack there of.

        1. Natalie*

          Taking your holiday off likely falls under reasonable accommodations your employer has to make for you, given that religion is a protected characteristic. It’s obviously totally up to you whether or not you want to pursue it, but if you did Alison’s articles about bringing up legal issues to your employer might be helpful in framing your approach.

          1. Anonsie*

            I wonder how that would work for me– the Solstice is big for my dad and I like to join in on his activities, but it’s not a part of my own religion. I was raised with it, though, it’s more of a family thing at this point. Christmas, too, at that.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        “Then you should only hire people with children, then everyone would be equal here.”

    4. Puddin*

      Ugh. I am sorry I did not realize my aging parents and grandparents – or whomever I chose to spend the holiday break with – took a back seat as ‘family members.’ Because without kids, apparently your time is not valuable and neither is your family. What a condescending answer from your boss as well, and I would e mortified if I were the employee with kids who got preferential treatment. That person should have given their ‘slot’ to you. This policy is utterly unfair.

      I would absolutely start applying elsewhere. Unless everything else about this job was career utopia, it would be time to move on. Alternatively, have some fake kids – say you adopted, get some photos to put in your cube, leave early every Thursday from Aug-Nov for band practice from 1st thru 12th grades, and then get your pick of holiday time. Finally, I would ask if I could then use my holiday time in one big chunk some other time of year. If you can only take it off in bits in Feb, maybe there is another time of year when you can get it all at once. Or ask have every Fri in the month of June off. Basically ask for some other more agreeable time off schedule if that is suitable to you anyway.

    5. Janis*

      Many years and jobs ago, like literally 30, it was always me and three Jewish guys who worked the week between Christmas and New Year’s. We called ourslves the “Three Wise Men and the Honorary Jewess.” I know it stinks, and I can scarcely believe they still do that kind of thing in this day and age, but I will tell you that Michael, Robert, Ed and I had many, many laughs during that week. We ordered pizza, chatted on the phone, read (no internet then), arrived late and left early … and did very little actual work.

    6. Nanc*

      Oh been there! Always worked the holiday eves, the day after the holiday, had my vacation cancelled because someone with kids also wanted those days. Mind you, if they had asked I probably would have tried to work something out. Which is why after being laid off after 12 years you had to pay out 12 weeks of vacation (yay for a strong contract). I had another job before I used up that money and a big fat deposit went into my savings account.

      You could go to your boss and suggest a rotation method. She who had the suckiest shift the year before gets the best shift this year. Honestly, kids understand this stuff to a point. If the parent doesn’t make a big deal out of having to work an occasional holiday eve, the kids probably won’t care.

  28. JMegan*

    Just want to drop a quick note to Alison, or whoever fixed my html fail earlier in the week. (Do you have an assistant for that kind of thing?) It’s a little detail, but it’s the kind of detail that has an impact on reader experience, and really shows how much you care about the site. So please consider this as virtual flowers and chocolate to you for keeping things running behind the scenes!

  29. Ash (the other one)*

    Does anyone else work for a “soft money environment” where they have to bill hours to specific projects? I am three months in and finding the process a bit stressful. My main task right now is fundraising and I am often working over my allotted hours for those proposals. Or today I am in a lull waiting for others to complete their tasks so I can do mine but unsure where to bill my hours. I can bill a maximum of 9% of time to “admin” which covers things like staff meetings, but it makes me really nervous. I know I need to ask my boss, but it is also frustrating. I am a senior staffer so I am “expensive” compared to an assistant level so have to really watch how much I charge, but still need to charge somewhere! Any advice?

    1. KerryOwl*

      First question: yes! I am! It sucks! Last question: keep up communication with people. If there are specific things that are making things take longer than they should, say something. If you don’t think you’re getting enough time to do the things you need to do, say something. Can you do research or something during your “lull” period? So you’re still billing to overhead, but at least it’s SOMETHING. But find out what they want you to do. I always leave it for too long and then my projects are over budget and it’s all terrible.

      I know some firms that require a 100% billing rate. Which means that salaried employees pretty much HAVE to work overtime every single week. Because it’s pretty much impossible to be billable every moment of the day. So you’re either overcharging your clients (doing admin stuff when you’re billing their projects), or working overtime so that you still have 40 billable hours a week. That sounds like bullshit to me.

    2. CheeryO*

      Going to be watching this one. I’m in a billable hours environment (engineering consulting), and it’s a significant cause of anxiety for me. I’m also only about three months in, so I don’t have much advice, but I totally commiserate.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      I actually quit a high-paying job because I hated billing my hours so so much. It felt shady to me because I worked a ton of overtime on personal work for the president and had to bill it to clients. I don’t think clients should have to pay for my staying late to balance my boss’ checkbook.

    4. Annie*

      I’m in engineering consulting, and I hate billing my hours more than anything else about this job. My best advice is to just let people know when you’re in a lull, generally other people have small tasks that they haven’t been able to get to that can be billable.

    5. hermit crab*

      I’m in a similar environment (basically, we’re expected to be 100% billable unless we are on vacation, doing pre-approved professional development, etc.) and I always regret not asking enough questions about that stuff in my first year or so because now, six years later, I feel like I still haven’t quite figured it out and it’s too late to ask any questions. It’s definitely awkward, but do try to ask very specific and direct questions. It will only help you!

      Also, semi-related: I once received the advice “Don’t bill like a girl.” Apparently someone did a study and (surprise, surprise) found that women in billable-hours environments are more likely to think things like, “Well, I spent half an hour staring out the window thinking about how to write the report, but that’s not the same as actually WRITING it, so I’m not going to bill for it, I’ll just make the time up later” — whereas men are more likely to think, “I spent half an hour planning how to write the report, 0.5 hours to Project X.” I definitely have “bill-like-a-girl” tendencies, and it’s a really tough habit to break. Anyway, when you are trying to figure out how to bill your non-billable hours, make sure they really are non-billable.

      1. Tris Prior*

        This is really interesting…. I do the exact same thing. I came from a company where we were only allowed to bill what the client felt the job SHOULD have taken, not what it really took. And our clients had completely unrealistic expectations for how much time the work would take.

        I’m now in a job where I have to account for my time by task, though I don’t have clients. It is VERY hard to break the mindset of “well, I spent half an hour thinking about the best way to handle Task and researching how it was done in the past, but that’s my issue, I must just be slow or dumb, so that shouldn’t be billed.”

    6. Tris Prior*

      Oh, my other favorite head-scratcher regarding billable hours was:

      “You can’t bill any more time to this job or Client will be angry that we went over budget.”
      “No, there is no other job that you can work on and bill your time to because everything else is over budget too.”
      Then, after submitting my timesheet:
      “…. why does your timesheet have so many nonbillable hours on it?”

      I never did figure out what they wanted from me.

    7. Mz. Puppie*

      When I worked in a consulting environment, the corporate guidance to us around this issue was like this:
      1) If you spend 15 minutes during your morning shower contemplating an issue with Client X, you bill a quarter hour to Client X. Any time spent spending any brainpower counts, no matter when or where it happened.
      2) My employer had the concept of “value billing”. Which was like this. If I spend (and bill) 5 hours developing a report for Client X, and then I re-use that template for Client Y in such a way that Client Y’s report-generation only took 1 hour, I bill 3 hours to Client Y, not just the one actual hour I spent. The reasoning is — why should Client X take all the hit for the development time when Client Y also benefits from that time — they should both pay for it in a reasonable manner. That “value billing” is what ended up completely covering all my waiting-around time and coffee-pot-chatter time etc.

  31. OliviaNOPE*

    I work in an organization with a LOT of turnover. Our new Director started in August and I already hate him. He is sarcastic, rude, refuses to drive to our frequent out-of-area meetings, has disparaged my work (which was done correctly) and allows the office receptionist to boss around the management team A LOT (she writes incredibly unprofessional and rude emails and CCs him so I know he’s seeing the way she speaks to us). He is something like our 5th director in just under 4 years. For the record, I liked the last three directors. Part of me is thinking he won’t be around long and just shut up and deal with it. Part of me is already ready to go to his higher ups and express my concerns. Is it too soon?

    1. CTO*

      If you’re going to go over his head to express your concerns, you’ll have to come up with some specific, objective examples of how his behavior affects your organization’s success. For instance, has his refusal to attend out-of-area-meetings had a significant impact on your bottom line, quality, or relationships?

      What do you think of upper management? Are they trustworthy? Responsive? Do you have a good relationship with them?

      I’m curious about the high turnover rate. Does this signal poor upper management who are unlikely to respond to your concerns effectively?

    2. Mister Pickle*

      I’d be very careful. I don’t know your work environment, but going over someone’s head to complain about them is, in some places, considered Very Bad Form.

      (and some places have an Open Door policy that explicitly allows for this – although it’s inadvisable to use it unless you’re reporting on a serious issue that is negatively affecting the conduct of business).

  32. LDT*

    Hi everyone! 2 questions if anyone can help me out:

    1. Bad Glassdoor reviews / a potentially bad work environment?
    – I just accepted a job at a company that has only 8 Glassdoor reviews, but about half of those are recent and negative. Some complaints include upper management being cruel, cursing at employees in e-mails, setting themselves up for a lawsuit, and being stuck on a sinking ship. Other reviews are neutral.

    I had to take this job, though; I’m very early in my career and honestly don’t think anyone else will hire me for the hours/pay that they offer. Any tips for how I should be taking these reviews or how I can prepare myself?

    2. Currently, I work as an independent contractor remotely for another company. While I initially informed my manager there that I’d be leaving once I found fulltime work, after some thought I’ve decided that I think I want to continue working for them, in addition to the fulltime job. I realized that the hours/workload there are light enough that (I don’t THINK) they’d become overwhelming for me.

    Is this considered faux pas in any way, or am I overthinking it? If I tell my manager I want to stay signed on even though I’m now employed fulltime, will that be okay?

    1. Ash (the other one)*

      Make sure there’s no violation of workplace agreements at your new job to continue doing the consulting. While some people do it under the table (“moonlighting”) it can have significant consequences if its against company policy (e.g. termination).

      1. bridget*

        And if your consulting work is for a competitor or it means you yourself are acting as a competitor when you moonlight, that could expose you to liability even if it isn’t explicitly against the rules in your new company. In many states employees have a common-law “duty of loyalty” to their current employers. Depending on how broadly or narrowly that common-law doctrine is defined in your state, that could easily include a duty to not directly compete with your company.

        1. LDT*

          I don’t think these two companies are directly competitors… but I’m not sure? One of them is LexisNexis, and the other is a company that produces directories of information on leading corporations, CEOs, other figures, etc. in different industries.

          Is this pushing it, though? I don’t HAVE to stay with LexisNexis, I just thought it’d be nice. Should I just drop the idea and give my 2 weeks notice as was the original plan?

          1. Jam Wheel*

            Is the directory company publishing any product that would be considered a competitor to any product of LN or its parent company, Reed Elsevier? Actually, I would be more concerned about the new company objecting to the moonlighting if they ever found out, considering how valuable some of the directory information can be.

      2. LDT*

        That’s a good idea; I had that thought as well — if I wanted to stay, would I be asking BOTH my new job and my current job if there are any conflicts?

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      Re #1-I went through something similar this past summer, except the company had even less reviews (2) and both were horrible. Unfortunately no red flags came up for me at the interview, I focused on the “positives” , and the co seemed to have great (customer) reviews online…..I ended up posting about it in past open threads including this one, and I regret taking it.

      Since quitting may not be an option for you and you need the experience and $$ I’d suggest just trying to get as thick a skin as possible. Don’t take their swearing personally, and don’t internalize it. It didn’t take long for me to start thinking I deserved the berating and beating myself up over little mistakes.

      1. Artemesia*

        Enter this job as an anthropologist who will be noticing and documenting (for your personal research and future glassbowl review) the local flora, fauna and natives. When the cursing and ugliness begins, feel a thrill of triumph as you have already witnessed the illusive ‘full asshattery’ after so short a period of observation. Gloat quietly to yourself that they are so predictable and you are on to them. Keep as much clinical detachment as you can as you rack up experience and accomplishments.

        And of course have your job search boots on from the getgo. You may not actively search for 6 months or a year but be poised to do so, have your paper in order, and be constantly scanning the horizon for giraffes (more pleasant jobs.)

        1. fposte*

          Oh, I like this. There was an article on The Cafe this week about the author’s attempt, years ago, to interview Anna Nicole Smith, and how she needed five “scenes” to make the article (but was having a hard time getting them since ANS mostly wanted to sleep). That’s similar–you’re a journalist looking for “scenes” to relate.

        3. bridget*

          I use exactly this strategy when conversing with my mother (whose personality quirks have a tendency to drive me a little crazy if I let them).

        4. LDT*

          This is a great way of putting it, haha! And I especially like the phrase “the illusive full asshattery.”

          Thanks everyone. I’m not so worried emotionally-speaking — I have a pretty thick skin when it comes to these things. I was just wondering if anyone had testimonies of Glassdoor reviews like that being off-base.

          The only thing I’d be concerned about in entering a potentially toxic work environment is how that could impact my resume later on. I’m early in my career and don’t have much on it. It would really suck to not be able to take away a reference from my first fulltime office job. :(

          1. Sara aka NV*

            Yeah, tha’ts a toughie, esp if the environment is so bad that you’re sure you’ll get a shitty reference, it’ll feel like all your hard work was for nothing. I’d like to see the responses to this….

          2. Puddin*

            I find that Glassdoor reviews for Current Company reflect all the worst issues and only some of the best issues. I think Glassdoor skews negative – similar to customer feedback surveys. If things are honkey-dorey then no need to share your thoughts. But one bad day and poof there goes a crappy review.

            Look for trends in the reviews. If 70% of them mention the review process is Fail, then take that under advisement and steel yourself (or be the change you want to see in the workplace if you end up agreeing with the reviewers). If one guy spouts off on how management is clueless and is very vague about it, then take that with a grain of salt, move on.

            Either way, you work there now. Use your own judgment as your guide. You don’t know what is truly there until you walk through the door and sit your butt down.

            good luck!

    3. Frances*

      I like Glassdoor, but for most companies, the reviews vary. For instance, my current company has a LOT of negative reviews, but there are also some average-t0-good ones and even a few excellent ones. I definitely agree with the negative reviews, but there are some good and bad things about all companies…and you may have to find those out for yourself. I would keep those things in mind, but what is a deal-breaker to one person might be no big deal to someone else. And there might be plenty of people who are satisfied at a company who may not feel compelled to post on Glassdoor.

  33. straws*

    My boss & I are working on ways to increase my authority so that I can take on decisions & tasks that are currently handled by him. Having more time will be extremely helpful to him, and I’m excited to move forward. However, I’m currently 7 months pregnant, so I’ll be out for extended leave fairly soon. It would be great if he could have more time in the next 2 months, but I’m also concerned about reworking communication lines to go to me instead of him when he’ll just be stepping back in. I can’t decide if it will help establish what should happen when I return or if it will make a permanent change in the future more difficult by going back and forth. Should I hold off on pushing for this change before I leave?

      1. straws*

        We’ve kind of been waffling back and forth on it together. So I guess you could say the question is from us both. I know he’d love to have more time now, but everyone is very used to going straight to him for everything. I realize it’s mostly speculation at this point, but it seems like disrupting habits but letting them fall right back would be worse than just waiting. We seem to have a 50/50 success rate with him handing tasks off to me. Sometimes everything goes smooth as can be, other times it seems like he spends more time redirecting everyone to me than he did taking care of the tasks himself.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          How many people are impacted?

          I hate saying this as it goes against my usual thinking, but if there are a lot of people involved and they do not seem to be catching on maybe wait. You could use this time to design the new system or set up whatever you need. Then when you come back roll it out.

          1. straws*

            We’re a small company, but about half of our employees are affected in some way or another. The more directly affected people are the ones with the most ingrained habits though. I like the idea of focusing on a new set up, and maybe my boss will find things to tweak while I’m not around. I also like Marcy’s idea of handing off just the smaller things.

        2. DG*

          Can your boss phrase it something like “Going forward please take this to straws. We want to make sure we are up to date on all work before she heads out on maternity leave and she will be handling these tasks when she returns as well.”

        3. Marcy*

          I am the manager in this exact situation, including the employee being 7 months pregnant. I have been handing the smaller things off to her because she plans to work from home after the first month and will be able to handle those small things from home fairly easily. I plan to step in that first month and just explain I am only helping out until she is able to resume that particular task. The larger things I am keeping until she is back in the office. I’m finding that works pretty well.

          1. straws*

            How funny that we’re both in this situation. I’ll be gone for about a month as well. Handing off the smaller things may also help us try out some of the new arrangements and see what the reactions are without too much disruption.

  34. Lisa*

    I am so happy! I was not feeling new corporate company that acquired us after I was hired recently. I wrote once on here that I wouldn’t have taken the job if I had known we were going corporate. I was so disappointed with how acct management made me feel like a minion, and was so depressed and constantly looking for a new job cause I felt this shadow of corporate BS that was killing my abillity to do my job at all. I was completely deflated, and didn’t want to work at all based on my interactions with anyone at corporate and was quietly stewing. Trying to wait out any better integration that was bound to happen, but getting more deflated as the weeks went by and no real convos about this.

    Then, I went to headquarters this week. OMG, it is sooo diff than what I had been experiencing. Turns out everyone is upset about how acct managers handle everything. My perception of corporate was because of them. The top acct guy was recently let go too. They hired someone else, and I got a real view of the company and people that I hadn’t had contact with much. I love this place! They seriously were on the verge of losing me, because I kept thinking so this is how corporate life is. Circular logic, BS process, overly yes-ing and promising things we don’t even do to the clients. Turns outs its just the acct teams. The other departments are amazing, and I am now super hopeful for the future. This trip completely changed my outlook. The transition since we were bought has been quiet, so no one has really been telling us anything cause they are all super busy. My only interactions were with these acct people, which made me want to stab myself in the eye. But now that I know this is not how the company wants them to act, I am very happy. Still some adjustments to deal with, but I am no longer looking to bail.

  35. A Different Day's Handle*

    (There is a question at the end of this, I swear. Basically “what can I do to help, without hurting?”)

    One of my coworkers – part of the team I am on, not someone who reports to me or is above me on the org chart, but significantly junior to me in time with the company – has some habits that are irritating his coworkers.

    When he tries to explain the viscosity properties of chocolate, and how combustion works, when I only wanted to know if the last batch of teapots passed the ‘candle flame’ test, I just tell him that I don’t need to know all that, I just need the answer to my question. (It really is that level of detail different – what should be a single-sentence answer becomes a 5-minute monologue if you let it.)

    When he stands near my desk and stares into the middle distance over my head, I say, “Yes?” And then he either says something to me or goes away, coming back later when he’s worked through whatever thought is in his head.

    But not all of our other coworkers are as direct. I know – because they tell me, which isn’t very useful – that these habits annoy them also, but they do not address them with him in the moment.

    Our immediate supervisor is aware of the issues. I do not know if he is addressing them, but my impression is ‘not’ (because they are social issues, not directly work-performance issues). I may be wrong about that. I have a good rapport with this supervisor and he is generally a good man to work for, but of course I wouldn’t expect him to tell me if he was addressing any of this. (Even if he is, I don’t think everyone is telling him when it happens, so he would have a partial-picture rather than a full one. I suspect that’s true of me as well, but I still am concerned.)

    But we are a team and need to work fairly closely together. As far as his actual teapot skills, this man is a decent teapot engineer for his level. I’d hope that he will stay on and integrate well with the team. At the moment, I’m concerned about that last part.

    Is there anything I can do, that would be useful, and not outside reasonable boundaries? Because other than setting my own – and encouraging people who complain to me to do likewise, so far with little effect – I’m not sure what more I can/should do.

    1. whatnow*

      Not entirely sure. But can sympathize, I have a relative who does this. They can’t ‘think’ into the middle of an issue, they have to start right at the outside of it (wherever their thought process or knowledge originated) – so you want to know how to get from one to store to one gas station, and they’ll tell you how to get there from their house. So things just take a ridiculously long time to get anywhere, the annoying thing is they only seem to do this when they’re flustered – so there’s other people there and they feel the need to make a good impression. And usually I’ve already heard the story and know the pertinent points, and have to signpost so they’ll get to the point.

      You can really only tell your co-workers to do what you do. Really it’s just annoying habits, that everyone have. I’m sure you’ve got a few that people work around.

    2. zecrefru*

      Sorry, no advice. This reminded me of someone I worked with. What’s the saying? Something like “Ask him the time and he’ll tell you to make a watch.”. Anyway, this still makes me smile: one day a co-worker asked me a question and I suggested she ask him because he had more expertise on the subject. She sighed and said, “but I don’t have that kind of time.”.

    3. soitgoes*

      In some people, this habit develops as a result of working for a boss or having a parent who can’t accept a simple answer and needs to have every detail accounted for. “Where are you going? Who with? Where did you meet them? Did I ever meet them? Do they know anyone I would know? Didn’t you just go there last week?” All of that in response to, say, “I’m getting dinner with Tina.” That’s an example that’s not related to work, but I think we all know people who badger others with questions, to the extent that others have to learn how to bring entire stories to the table. Can you think of a way to indicate that you DON’T need that much backstory? Sometimes I’ll interrupt and say, “Dude, just get to the punchline.”

    4. LCL*

      He’s an engineer, right? Some of them are just like that. Interrupt him when needed to keep him on topic.

      1. Adonday Veeah*

        Yeah, engineering brains often work differently than others. I find it endearing to work with them, but it wears thin when I’m dating one. They cannot change, any more than you can. You just have to know their workarounds. LLC offers a good workaround, worth a shot.

        1. Anonsie*

          God. My partner is like this– I pictured him immediately at the “walking over and starring for a while before leaving to think more” bit.

      2. Puddin*

        +100 – “I understand all of that” or “That is not what I am asking. I need x.” And don’t wait until he is finished, correct him as soon as you can tell he is trailing the wrong bird.

        As far as the staring in your direction, I was unclear if he does that out of the blue or in the ‘explanation’ discussions. If the former, I would shake my head and smile and say out loud – in a playful way, “there goes Charlie staring a hole into the void.” Done with a lighthearted tone it is a mild social correction.

    5. Red*

      To keep yourself from becoming the team’s officially unofficial mediator with this guy/his interpreter in chief, here’s something you can say when your team complains to you about him. “Huh. Have you said anything to him about it?” or “That sounds frustrating. You should really tell him.”

    6. Anonsie*

      When he tries to explain the viscosity properties of chocolate, and how combustion works, when I only wanted to know if the last batch of teapots passed the ‘candle flame’ test, I just tell him that I don’t need to know all that, I just need the answer to my question.

      This happens to me constantly, only here I think a big contributing factor is that a lot of folks just genuinely assume the small lady with only an undergrad degree is dumb and needs everything explained to her. Example I’ve given here before, they could tell me they want all their paperwork put on the moon and if I asked what kind of space shuttle they planned to use they would sigh deeply and tell me the moon is that big round thing I see in the sky at night sometimes.

      I do one of a few things depending on the situation. Usually, I wait until they’re done and leave a little bit of a pause and then slowly say “Okay. But I need to know [repeat question verbatim].” Alter as appropriate for the person you’re talking to.

  36. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I had a Skype interview yesterday for a job that sounded interesting; after the interview, I really want to move forward and I really want this job. The woman who interviewed me is the head of operations, so it was more of an initial screener, but I liked her a lot and she asked the BEST interview questions. “What’s your ideal work environment?” “Tell me about your most satisfying experience in chocolate teapots.” “Tell me your biggest frustration in your current role.” But I don’t know how I did, because while I think it was ok, I’m never sure if it went WELL. For my current job, I thought I bombed the interview, so I’m just terrible at gauging my own performance. My biggest trip-up, I think, was around questions she asked about my current job. I gave her the “acceptable” reasons for leaving– I miss lots of client interaction, I want to do more custom teapot design– but I was so caught up on not sounding “negative” about my current position that I left out the others– I’m bored out my skull, I don’t have enough to do, this company has no transparency, etc. I was afraid to say I was bored lest she think I wasn’t used to a fast-paced environment (though I did say I miss the quick deadlines I had at my old company). Maybe I’m just over-thinking things.

    She also asked for writing samples, so I found a few a sent them over. I included one I am particularly proud of– a blog post I wrote for my old job– but while I think it’s a great example of some of the more conversational writing I’m capable of, now I’m thinking it may have included too much personal information. AAARRGGGHHH. I wish I could just shut off the voices.

    Anyway, I think I just needed to vent and rant, but please wish me luck! This sounds like a great place; small office with locations around the country, interesting clients, a real emphasis on ideas. I hope my interest came across. I was so wrought up after the interview that when I changed out of my interview clothes, I violated my own work-at-home policy and opted for yoga pants and a comfy sweatshirt and took my laptop to the sofa for the day. I’m hoping that the way the rest of the day went– I found a lost dog (a story for Sunday) and met a great bunch of new people– is indicative of some kind of good energy from the interview, but… I guess we’ll see.

    1. Artemesia*

      The job search process is full of mysteries. Do great and you don’t ever hear again; do badly and they hire you. Alison’s continual advice on this i.e. put it out of your head and assume it isn’t happening until it does, is really good. You could be the best thing they saw all week and someone’s brother in law could still get the job. We never see what is really happening on the other side. Good luck — but seriously, put it out of your head until something happens.

  37. Trixie*

    I know AOL and Hotmail email addresses are seen as outdated on resumes and such. Do folks still use Yahoo? I do have Gmail address which I tend not to use because it gets so much spam.

    2. Sandrine (France)*

      Since I mostly use Gmail on Thunderbird, I gotta say the filters work pretty well, so you can get to your e-mail in relative peace :P .

      That does remind me I have to make new ones though… Thanks for the reminder :P

    3. Blue_eyes*

      Gmail is pretty good at filtering out spam, especially if you drag anything that gets through to your inbox into the spam folder. It will learn what is and isn’t spam. Or you could always open a new gmail account and just be careful where you use it so it doesn’t start getting spam. I think yahoo would be ok, as long as your username is professional.

    4. KerryOwl*

      I’d say that Yahoo is still cool.

      I have a gmail account, though, and I very rarely (maybe once every few months?) get spam in the main Inbox. Its spam filter is pretty smart. I imagine that if you used it actively for a little while and tagged the spam that you do get, it would figure out pretty quickly how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    5. Sadsack*

      I was using my main yahoo account for my job search, but my mailbox also receives a lot of spam. I created a new gmail account that I use strictly for job-hunting. It is the one listed on my resume and the one I give in online applications, etc. It really gets no no other activity except for the occasional email from Google, so there’s no garbage and I am not in fear of missing an email should one of my applications actually get a response.

    6. Jubilance*

      In my experience Gmail is really good at filtering out spam, but you have to teach it. Mark all the stuff that is spam as spam (there are quick ways to do this) and they won’t hit your inbox. I’ve also had things that I deleted a lot (like emails from companies) end up in my spam because I deleted them so much, so that’s another option as well. I found that Yahoo lets a lot more spam through than Gmail.

    7. Smilingswan*

      I use a Hotmail account. The same one I’ve always had. All my contacts have that address, and it’s on my personal business cards and resume. I don’t understand why it is considered outdated. I do have a Gmail account set up “just in case”, but don’t really like the setup of that system, so I don’t want to make a permanent switch. What difference does it make which e-mail provider you use?

      1. Blue_eyes*

        Just like anything else, the email provider you use says something about you, whether you want it to or not. It’s not necessarily accurate or fair, but it’s there. I would compare using a Hotmail address professionally to writing your resume in Comic Sans. Sure Comic Sans is a legible font, but some people are going to judge you for it. I feel like in a lot of ways gmail has become the professional standard. Hotmail seems like you’re a 13 year old girl in 1998.

      2. Blue_eyes*

        Also, if you want to keep using your Hotmail account, you could set up a gmail address and just have it forward everything your Hotmail inbox. You can probably also set it to look like your outgoing messages are coming from gmail even if you send them from Hotmail. That way you could keep the email set up you like, but take advantage of the appearance of using gmail.

      3. Ann O'Nemity*

        I think hotmail is probably the worst email provider you could use for professional purposes. It’s outdated; you literally cannot even sign up for new accounts and existing users have been encouraged to move to outlook.com. And hotmail has an unfortunate history of being the target of security hacks and being used by spammers. If I see a hotmail address on an application, I’m going to immediately question the applicant’s ability and willingness to stay on top of the latest technology.

    8. Gwen*

      Yahoo reads just as outdated as Hotmail to me, though slightly less ridiculous than AOL. I’m surprised your gmail gets a lot of spam…it’s pretty smart about learning in my experience, I haven’t seen a spam message in my inbox in months.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      I still have a yahoo address (sbcglobal), but I only use that for non-work stuff. I use Gmail for writing and job-related stuff and for Amazon UK because I have to keep that separate from my US Amazon account.

    10. Cath in Canada*

      I’ve been emailing a lot of undergrad and grad students recently about volunteering at a conference, and I was astonished at how many of them gave me hotmail addresses as their contact info! Like, more than half, from a sample of about 2o people! Maybe it’s now retro-cool in a hipstery kinda way?

    11. NW Cat Lady*

      I’ve heard this as well, but I’ve had my yahoo account for almost 20 years, and I find it really difficult to make the switch.

      But I did set up a gmail account for job hunting, and just have everything forwarded to my yahoo address. My pay notifications, OT approvals, and all other e-mail correspondence from work goes to gmail. It’s nothing I have to respond to, so it works for me.

    12. jhhj*

      Depends where you are — hotmail especially but also yahoo are really common here. It’s not a factor for me. (But it might be if I were hiring IT.)

  38. MsManatee*

    So one of my coworkers is about to be fired. It’s not unmerited – he’s definitely not where needs to be after nearly a year of very hands-on training by me and my coworker, and he also has other issues like constantly making mistakes, poor time management, and talking back to our manager. It just feels kind of weird because he’s a nice guy, but there’s just this disconnect in him where he’s not getting it. It feels like everything we say goes in on ear and out the other. Has anyone else been in a similar situation? How did you handle it?

    1. LiteralGirl*

      We’ve had an admin in our office like that. Nothing was done with her; she was allowed to just continue making mistakes and she eventually became miserable. After 2 years she quit. At least your manager is doing something about it.

    2. Colette*

      It’s possible for nice people to have jobs they’re just not suited for – similarly, it’s possible for nasty people to be good at their jobs.

      It’s hard to watch someone you like struggle and fail, especially if you know that failing will cost them their livelihood, but ultimately there’s not much you can do about it.

      If/when he gets fired, about all you can do is sympathize and wish him well.

      I’m curious about why you know he’s about to be fired – it seems odd to me that you know before he does. Maybe there’s a legitimate reason for that, but if not, you might want to think about how this kind of thing is handled at your company.

      1. MsManatee*

        My manager had been asking me and my other coworker – who are in more senior positions than the other guy – for feedback on him throughout the year, since we work more closely with him than my manager does. So he let us know the other day what his plans were. Also this manager leaves his door open a lot when the coworker gets chastised. Not a good plan. :(

    3. Craigrs1*

      It’s interesting. I deal a lot with insecurity at work – I feel like I’m not contributing enough, etc – and the notion that some people sit around on the job and are actively destructive to their organizations, yet don’t get fired, is strangely comforting to me.

    4. Anonicorn*

      I’ve been through this / am going through this. My coworker is not about to be fired that I know of, but he really should be. It sucks that a nice guy is getting fired, but what’s worse is someone being kept around who’s bad at his job and bringing the team down. So I applaud your manager for dealing with it because you could end up with this situation:

      Elaborate initial training. Still bad at job. Further one-on-one training for each project. Still bad at job. Manager informed of issue. Still bad at job. One year mark. Role partly changed. Still here and bad at all of it.

    5. Jules*

      Some people I can be friends with and work with. Some people, I’d rather not work with. There is a disconnect between being personally nice and professionally compentent. For the most part, people are really nice. Sometimes though when it comes to work, when your work philosophy doesn’t jive, it makes you ready to rip your hair out.

      Doesn’t make you or him a bad person. He is just not at the same place as you are. Maybe all he needs is a little seasoning elsewhere where people will not take his BS and will tell him to cut the crap. Not many do that. Even I don’t tell some people to cut the crap when I should.

  39. Diet Coke Addict*

    What’s the best way to use my sales experience to transition OUT of sales?

    I hate my sales job, and I’ve been trying to get out for a while–focusing on my proven track record of sales achievement, strong relationships with clients, excellent database and project tracking skills, etc., as well as my non-work freelance writing work and other work experience. Is there anything else, skills-wise, that a sales background can transition to that I’m not thinking of?

    1. whatnow*

      Marketing/PR/Communications? or Admin maybe – database work etc, speaking to people. Potentially management roles, as you spoke to lots of people/negotiation?

      Probably better to figure out what interests you and see if you have transferable skills and/or how to get them. Rather than possibly transition to something that works on paper that you hate as well…

    2. Julie*

      Marketing/business development. I do some of that for a law firm and it requires understanding clients, curstomer service, being a translator between attorneys and clients, lots of tracking of deadlines/pitches/follow-up conversations, issuing positive press stories or industry news, and writing for marketing materials. I actually rarely deal with clients except maybe a few pitches because another higher up person takes credit for all that work in public.

      If you have a special skill set or background that might direct an industry. I’ve done both IT and legal work because I’ve trained in both fields but I also have worked with the public long enough to know how to make the jargon accessible for clients which is really valuable, or so they tell me. My measurables tend to be based on delivery, not conversions so the feeling that I must always be “on” that I got from sales isn’t really there. Think about what you don’t like in your job and start rewriting an ideal job description. I did that and while “Professional ice cream taster” didn’t pop up, this one did.

    3. JustSteph*

      Fundraising. I transitioned from a 100% sales job to a national non profit fundraising position to a university development position. Much better work environment and my skill set is very much valued!

  40. HateTheWeather*

    I’m stuck living somewhere I really don’t like while working/going to grad school and it will be about 3 years before I can move. I absolutely hate it here but have to suck it up because of residency/tuition. It’s either freezing cold or sticky and humid with no in between. I’m worried that I’m going to get ‘stuck’ living here after school is over if I pick up a job from an internship and all my contacts will be here. Is it really that hard to move away after finishing grad school for a new city on the other side of the country. Am I over estimating how much my contacts will be ingrained here?

    2. Artemesia*

      Any chance of an internship in the city or region you prefer. Off site internships are not unusual. I once worked with an internship program where we had people in the home city and in San Francisco, New York, Atlanta, Washington DC and London and the occasional person placed individually in other cities. The listed cities were all staffed up with faculty run seminars linking the coursework and the internship; the independent sites were rare and managed on line.

      There are also colleges that don’t have their own internship placement network nationally but allow summer or even academic year internships through other programs. My daughter went to school in the west but did a summer internship through another college in DC and was eventually hired by the firm she interned with. Even schools that normally don’t do this, might for a proactive well motivated student who figures out how to get it done.

      You know you don’t want to be where you are so get very proactive about a bridge to where you would like to be. I had a career where I had little location choice; if I had it to do over I would decide where I wanted to live and choose my school and certainly my job that way.

      1. Artemesia*

        PS In colleges it is surprising how really flexible many things are for aggressive students. Your school may not have done this off site internship much in the past, but with your motivation of wanting to work in an area and your homework to identify sites or even other programs you could join just for the internship, you might be surprised how easy it is to get permission. I’d appeal if it is turned down at the first level — very calm, self-directed and professional of course.

    3. CheeryO*

      Well, this is just one bullet point, but I went to grad school in the Great Lakes area and got an offer from a company in a big East Coast city, even without any contacts there. Many of my classmates stayed fairly local, but I know of people who went to the West Coast, too. I think it depends on how marketable your degree is, but it’s definitely possible.

  41. Allison*

    In recent months we’ve had discussions about things we’d rather our co-workers do in the bathroom, or not at all while at work, so I have a somewhat related question:

    I have an oily complexion, and for a while now I’ve been keeping blotting tissues on my desk and blotting my face during the day while at my desk. It’s an open office but we have short walls around our desks for privacy purposes, so I’m not even sure if people notice I’m doing it most of the time, but could this be grossing out my co-workers? Should I start doing this in the bathroom from now on?

    (I’m NOT looking for product recommendations, but if you absolutely *must* tell me I should use something else to control the oil, please note that a) I can’t use anything with salicylic acid, and b) part of why I use the blotting sheets is they contain green tea which helps keep acne at bay, I’m really into natural skin remedies since they’re less irritating)

    1. Larisa*

      I personally wouldn’t find it gross at all. Other people might be different, but I don’t see the problem.

    2. Calla*

      I think this is 100% fine. I mean, unless like you have a blotting tissue dripping with oil and show it around, which I doubt. I don’t get oily often anymore but I sometimes dab my face with a tissue if it’s one of the days where I am, and have never thought twice about it.

    3. Kelly L.*

      I wouldn’t care as long as you toss the used ones as soon as you’re done with them. It’s about on par with dabbing at your nose with a tissue IMO, which I also think is reasonable at a desk (as contrasted witj, like, endless foghorn nose-blowing or something).

      1. Sadsack*

        Endless nose-blower here, and it will never stop. If I went to the ladies room every time, I’d never be at my desk. I don’t know if I am a foghorn, but I am sure others can here me anyway. I am already on allergy meds for other allergies, so there’s not much more I can do. Sorry, neighbors!

        1. Kelly L.*

          Sorry! :( I didn’t mean to single anybody out, and I have endless nose days too. Was just trying to think of a more dramatic nose-thing!

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Blotting papers are a godsend and changed my (oily, shiny, acne-ridden) life when I learned about them. No one ever noticed or cared when I used them at my cubicle or in my office. It looks like you’re just using a tissue or maybe wiping a bit of sweat from your brow. Make it quick and throw the paper away immediately, and you’re good.

      Also, a tip: in a pinch, if you’re out and about without your papers, toilet seat covers are made with the exact same type of paper and work really well (albeit without the green tea).

      1. Cruciatus*

        Just what I was going to say! I take some of the toilet seat covers back to my desk and cut them up and use them as my main blotting papers! I’ve also read something about napkins at, I believe, Starbucks…

        1. voluptuousfire*

          Yep, Starbucks napkins work just as well. I keep stacks of them in my car and my desk drawer at work. It also helped when we’ve had things spill on our desks at work. I always saved the day by having a stack of Starbucks napkins at the ready. :)

      2. Nina*

        I agree. Those papers are a lifesaver. So much better than blotting powder, imo.

        And no, I don’t think it’s a problem. It’s not a real time consuming activity and as long as you toss them away once you’re done, you’re fine.

      3. Anonsie*

        YMMV but I find single-ply toilet paper (or one side of double ply) works significantly better than toilet seat covers, which absorb nothing as far as I’ve ever experienced.

        2nd voluptuousfire on the Starbucks napkins, though.

    5. Monodon monoceros*

      I wouldn’t care what you are doing as long as I can’t smell, feel, or taste (eww, grossed myself out) what you are doing, or see body parts that aren’t normally seen at work, or bodily fluids.

      So blotting your face would be fine with me, unless you crunch up the paper, try to throw it in the bin and it hits me. Then not OK. :)

      1. Monodon monoceros*

        I forgot hearing. I don’t want to hear it either (which is what bothers me about extensive nail clipping. Clip. Clip. Clip. drives me crazy. One nail, fine. All 10 or 20 digits, not fine).

        1. Allison*

          Thankfully blotting my face is quiet. Not sure I wanna know what sound it could make . . .

          But I am thankful to everyone for the feedback!

    6. Anonsie*

      (I’m NOT looking for product recommendations, but if you absolutely *must* tell me I should use something else to control the oil, please note that a) I can’t use anything with salicylic acid, and b) part of why I use the blotting sheets is they contain green tea which helps keep acne at bay, I’m really into natural skin remedies since they’re less irritating)

      Are you sure? Have you tried Proactiv, or like, some sort of products for oily skin? Clean and Clear makes some.

      I JEST I get this crap all the time, I go from 0 to rage so fast. “Oh no, I haven’t ever tried anything because I’m a complete idiot! I’m so glad you saw some Proactiv commercials and could tell me it exists, what would I ever have done without you?”

    7. Anx*

      Way back when I had oily skin, KimWipes were my paper of choice, because I could them for my eyeglasses too.

  42. Nonprofit Woes*

    Hi all! I’d love to get some insight into the situation my nonprofit is currently facing. Details have not been forthcoming, and what has been shared has had a positive spin, so I’m not sure what’s realistic. Basically, we’re small, and about to run out of cash (no reserves). We have a chunk of restricted funds that can’t be tapped for operations, and some contract money that comes in every month, but it’s a small amount. For those in the know, if an organization couldn’t cover expenses for the next month, with just a glimpse of being able to do so the following month (yearly appeal) with 2015 totally up in the air…. what are the options? Does this spell longer term furloughs, layoffs, a total shutdown? For me it seems the sky is falling but with no conversations going on (that I can tell) about contingency planning, perhaps this is not too far from the norm and we’ll try and get credit, or something else.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      At a minimum, they’ll probably need to lay people off. They’ll almost certainly do everything they can to avoid shutting down, but it might not be avoidable, depending on what their funding forecast looks like.

      Furloughs are an option but in a situation like what you described, it’s probably not enough (not unless there’s a massive check that’s coming for sure in a month, or something like that).

      Credit isn’t generally an option in situations like this. I would expect layoffs, and be actively looking.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I should add: When you say they can’t cover expenses next month, what does that mean? Can’t make payroll? Can’t keep a particular campaign going? Depending on what it really means, it might just mean cutting programs but not staff. But it sounds like it might be more about not being able to make payroll, and that would mean layoffs (unless they could figure out and justify moving money from a different part of the budget — but that often doesn’t make sense even if they could do it, because you want to be looking at what will be sustainable long-term).

    3. CTO*

      I’ve seen nonprofits rebound well from serious financial woes that threatened to shut them down. That said, this doesn’t look very good if you rely on a paycheck from this place. If you can, get some clarification along the lines of what Alison suggested.

      One organization for which I worked a few years back was facing a temporary financial shortfall from a government shutdown. The leadership was as open as they could be about their plans–how we’d cover expenses, what programs could be impacted, whether we’d have furloughs, etc. It was a stressful time but at least I had the information I needed to plan for my own financial needs.

      If you’re not getting any openness or candid information about what’s going on, I’d be looking elsewhere and quickly.

    4. Amanda*

      Almost certainly layoffs. I’m sorry. Nonprofits are wonderful in so many ways, but this is one of their huge drawbacks. There are probably contingency plans being discussed at the board and director level, but depending on where you are in the hierarchy you won’t hear about them until they’re shared with everyone.

      I’d also be worried about an organization that allowed this to happen, and is looking to an annual appeal as a savior.

      As to a complete shutdown – that would be the last resort, obviously, but I think it depends on what the core mission of the nonprofit is, and whether it’s feasible to shut down. Think about what your essential functions are and whether they can be transitioned. I’d guess it’s also more likely with a very large or a very small organization. If a large org has zero reserves they’ve probably gone down a very rocky road to get there and they have to raise that much more to get back to solvency; if a small org has zero reserves they just don’t have the resources to bounce back and raise even a small amount.

      That said, there’s stories of situations like this going every which way. I hope your organization transitions smoothly and that you come out of everything okay.

  43. Stephanie*

    What is the proper etiquette in this situation?

    It’s a business meeting. A man escorts his boss into the roo . I’ve already met the man and his bos . My two managers have not met him, so they stand to shake hand . Now everyone in the room is standing except m . Do I stand, too? Shake hands even though I already know everyone? Does it make a difference if I’m the only women in the room? How about if I’m the only women and we’re in a Middle Eastern country where traditional men are uncomfortable shaking hands with with women?

    I never know if I should sit, stand, offer my hand, or just hide under the table.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t know about the Middle Eastern part, but in the US I’d say you would be okay either remaining seated and saying “Nice to see you again, Bob” or getting up to shake his hand. Which I’d choose would probably depend on how far I was away from him and when it was I last saw him (met him last year, I’d get up and shake hands; saw him this morning, wave and hello).

    2. Artemesia*

      I’d stand and shake hands. It is normal in a business setting to shake hands on seeing someone you know in a meeting whom you haven’t been talking with recently. e.g. if you had been chatting with Ambrose just before the meeting then it might be odd to do it again, but if it was last week, then join the shakeathon.

      In the Middle East it is tricky. In my experience, first meetings always involved the proper exchange of business cards, so if I had done that already I would probably not join in with that.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think the key is to remember that not every client will approach this the same way, even if they’re from the same company and country, so be open to cues. A good compromise might be to stand, look him in the eye, and say “Good to see you again, Mr. Teapot!”, and watch with your peripheral vision to see if he extends his hand. Heck, if you’re talking about a culture where it might be considered unseemly to have physical contact with the opposite sex, standing without extending your hand (but watching for him to extend his) might be a good way to greet any new client!

      1. fposte*

        I think in general that the rule is when in doubt, do the ritual. You’re likelier to feel weird about doing nothing than doing something.

    5. Jules*

      I am very sensitive to people who don’t shake hands with the opposite sex, I would just nod my head when introduced. Otherwise I would just wait for cue. Not everyone is a stickler about it. In the US though, unless I am specifically told otherwise, I will always, get up if I am sitting and shake hands with everyone as I am introduced.

  44. whatnow*

    Having mini-freakout about interview I have coming up.
    Mainly because it sounds like a great job and I seem to screw up interviews for jobs I really want (well all interviews, but it hurts when you wanted them!)
    It’s a bit of a commute, which I think may put them off, but I’m looking to move, and my previous commute (using public transport) took much longer. How do I address this in the interview?
    Also I talked on the phone and made a slight error, I said I wanted to work in a certain area in film similar to what I’ve done before, but I actually had an interview for a job earlier in the year, which I would have loved and I think this would have been a better fit to say as I my dream job. (Producer’s Assistant) and fits in better with what the role might entail. (Also true, I really wanted that job.) Anyway to rectify this? I was generic (want to work in production) then said I wanted to work around the role I had in my CV.
    Third and final thing :) Everyone always comments on this and I don’t know how to answer well. I did a course in Screenwriting last year. Everyone asks if that’s my dream job, and I say it’s something I’m thinking of in the future, and working on in my free-time. I never know how to address it properly. It’s something that may take a very long time and/or never happen. Almost like a hobby.

    Any advice appreciated! Thank you :)

    1. Malissa*

      On the first one, if they ask, tell them you are looking at apartments in the area.
      Don’t mention it. Chances are they may not bring it up. If they do then you can expand on it. “I’m really interested in that area, but also looking to expand into X.”
      The screen writing thing, “Well I know many people dream of working in that area, but I took the class to expand my skills as it’s a hobby I was interested in learning more about. And if you could add in something about how the class would relate to the role you are applying for, even better!

  45. Treena Kravm*

    A lot of the time I send emails or verbal requests and until I hear back, I don’t/can’t move forward. These aren’t vital to my job, but I still want to easily track it. I’m realizing I haven’t developed a system because they’re not vital, but it’s time I start using one. I’ve tried putting them in their own folder in my inbox, but that doesn’t work for sent mail and verbal things.

    So what do you find to be a helpful trick or tool to keep track of all these little things to follow up on if you don’t hear back?

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I bcc myself and track the message in a category in my inbox.

      I keep my whole to do list in a spreadsheet, so I have also just tracked it there, it I’ve found that having the email message readily available to forward again is most useful since it has all the context.

    3. Karowen*

      I use Outlook, and I absolutely adore the task feature. I just flag the emails as soon as I’ve sent or received them and set a reasonable date/time (with a reminder!) to follow up on them. You can also create tasks to remind yourself to follow up on verbal conversations.

      This only works, though, if you actually clear the items out. I have co-workers who have 100s of flagged tasks all bright red, and it obviously doesn’t work for them. But if you’re like me and hate having notifications or tags waiting for you to clear them out, this is perfect. It’s really easy to send the email as soon as the reminder pops up, or reset the flag to remind you at a later date/time if necessary.

    4. Frances*

      I have Outlook at work, and I’ve found those little follow up flags incredibly useful for that kind of thing, if it’s an individual message chain that I need to keep track of. If it’s a project where I need responses from multiple people (I do a lot of work where I need forms back from a dozen people), I usually set a calendar reminder, if it’s particularly time sensitive. I also have running to-do lists in Google Keep for tracking multi-stage and recurring projects (useful for projects where there are other parts of the project I can do while waiting for responses).

    5. Mister Pickle*

      I’ve developed a ‘system’ over the years. It’s not perfect but it’s super-easy and it works well enough that I’ve never been driven to move to a more sophisticated system.

      It’s basically this: I have a text file in an editor that stays up and running all the time. When I need to do something, I add a line to it that begins with a dash:
      – talk to Bob about frangible teapots
      When the task is in process (I called Bob but I got his voicemail), I’ll append an ‘x’ to the front:
      x- talk to Bob about frangible teapots
      When the task is done (Bob called me back, we talked), I remove the dash:
      x talk to Bob about frangible teapots

      Also: I’ll copy/paste any manner of random data into the file, too: phone numbers, email addresses, URLs, code fragments. I’ll use the editor’s search function to find things when I need them. When the file gets too big, I’ll archive it and start a new file. It’s often handy to have a record of what has happened in the past.

      It’s so simple it’s actually kinda stupid. But it works. I use an editor called emacs and I feel guilty because it has a special “org-mode” that, in theory, should be even better for this kind of thing. But so far it’s simply not been worth the effort.

  46. NoReferences*

    How can you get around having no references? I got fired from my last job for not making enough sales, but truth be told, sales just wasn’t for me. I didn’t have the ‘killer instinct’ and don’t have a pushy bone in my body. But I do know I am a hard worker, very organised, efficient and motivated. I just wasn’t suited to that job. But because no one will ‘vouch’ for me, I can’t get a job. What can I do?

    1. whatnow*

      Have you got older references you could use? Or personal references (former colleague maybe)? You could do some voluntary work and use them as a reference perhaps…

      1. Felicia*

        When I was in a similar situation, I started some volunteer work which (sort of) got around it, though people will wonder why you don’t have references from that job (i was fired after 3 months so i took it off my resume, but you probably can’t)

  47. Aidan*

    A good friend recently graduated from law school and is applying for legal jobs: mostly fellowships, government work and public interest. He’s asked me to help review his cover letters. I’ve provided feedback on the content of the letter, but I had a couple of questions to make sure I’m giving the right kind of advice. He often refers to “being near his girlfriend and her family” as one of the reasons for his interest in job. I gave the advice that that’s irrelevant and the employer won’t care, but he countered with the explanation that legal jobs want to know that you have ties to the area. Is this true? Secondly, he doesn’t like to sign his full name on cover letters (“Sincerely, -Will” instead of “Sincerely, William Smith”) which strikes me as noticeably informal, but he stands by it. Does this matter? I’m inclined to think he won’t get passed over for jobs for something like this if he’s a good candidate, but I’m also wary of overwhelmed employers looking for any reason to narrow the pool.

    1. neversawthatb4*

      I think on those matters, he should get advice from the career services office office at his school.Those are good points for you to bring to his attention.

    2. Turanga Leela*

      I don’t know about the signature, but as far as the “ties to the area” thing goes: Legal employers DO want to know that you have a connection to the area, particularly if you’re coming from out of state to a smaller legal market. (No one in NYC or DC cares if you have local ties; they just assume you want to live there anyway. Employers in Nebraska, however, will care.) However, “my girlfriend and her family” isn’t going to sound like a deep connection, and I wouldn’t recommend saying it. “Girlfriend” just doesn’t sound serious or permanent.

      Instead, he could just say he has family in the area, or he could talk about other reasons why he wants to be there—maybe he has spent time there in the past, or maybe he has always wanted to do X kind of law that this area is known for, or maybe he is simply passionate about this job in particular and is willing to move for it.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Agreed. “Girlfriend and her family” won’t sound serious enough and will come off a little strangely. He should just say “family in the area.”

        1. Senor Poncho*

          Was going to comment that ties are important and “significant other + family in area” is a pretty typical way to go, but I like your version better.

          1. Lisa*

            Side rant – I always hate when people assume that a gf or a bf is less permanent. I am 11 years in my relationship, but somehow people think I am less a part of the family cause we are not getting married. We’ve been together longer than his brother and sister’s marriages combined, but yeah not serious enough to some.

            1. bridget*

              Yeah, we need a new term for long-term committed partners. The problem is that it’s hard for an employer to tell from just the term “girlfriend” or “boyfriend” whether you’ve been living together for five years and have a house and a dog, or whether you’ve been seeing each other for six weeks and just decided to be exclusive, and you’re moving nearby to “see how things develop.” One is much much different than the other, and it’s kind of silly that we use the same term for them. But, I can see how from an employer’s point of view, where they have no information about what kind it is (and they don’t want to pry for details), they might worry it’s the less permanent version.

              I’m guessing they see “spouse” differently, even if it’s a new marriage, because it would take some legal doing to disentangle the relationship, which is not necessarily true of a non-marital relationship of a similar length.

  48. Stephanie*

    I ended up not getting the job I posted about a couple of weeks ago (the one that was first-line supervision). It was a little awkward as the recruiter called me to tell me they were moving forward with other candidates. But oh well.

    But maybe I’ll luck out soon. I had a phone screen yesterday (the job I posted about where I interviewed before) which went fine. The interviewers didn’t remember interviewing me previously (and I didn’t bring it up). And I have one in a couple of hours (that I need to get back to preparing for).

    1. Trixie*

      Did they offer any feedback? It sounds like you were prepared for supervisory experience question. And good luck on next interview!

        1. Stephanie*

          Nah, just the generic “we’re going forward with candidates with more direct experience.”

          And thanks!

    2. fposte*

      Sorry about the supervisor position, Stephanie, but it sounds like your applications are drawing good interest right now–hopefully one of them will be right!

  49. JMR*

    Hi-I had a couple questions I was just curious to get some opinions on. First, should I worry that the last few new hires at my company are either close friends or family members of the owner? The owner’s best friend that he has known since childhood has been hired to be the new CEO and a new manager at another location is his nephew. Second, the past few Fridays (and only Fridays) my boss has texted/called me to come back to work after I have left. The call will usually occur 10-15 minutes after I have left (I have a 30 minute commute) and when I return it’s been for menial tasks like sending a fax or copying a few pages. He could ask his assistant/someone else who is still there to do it. I don’t know if there is anything I could or should say about it.

    1. Karowen*

      I wouldn’t worry about the nepotism until you see evidence that they’re incompetent. Sometimes the person you know truly is the best person for the job, if for no other reason than you know that you get along well and can work together. I’d definitely be frustrated by the calling you back in after you’ve left, but I have no idea what you could do about it…

    2. Chocolate Teapot*

      I would be seriously annoyed about the being called back for stuff which could wait/be delegated. On the other hand, saying no to a Bigwig can be tricky.

      The new hires thing also sounds worrying.

    3. Swarley*

      Boss: I need you to come back and send this fax for me.
      You: Hi Boss! I’d be happy to, but I’m already a ways down the road. Is it urgent? If so, Assistant is still in the office I believe and should be able to help out with this.

      When you come into the office the next morning you might follow up with Boss and say something like: I know how time sensitive some of these faxes can be, so I’d be happy to show you how to do it if you have a minute!

      However, if your boss is calling you to come back into the office to send a fax I’m guessing he already has some glaring problems that won’t make this an easy conversation.

      Good luck!

    4. CTO*

      I’d worry that the new folks are untouchable even if they have performance issues. The boss will either be blind to the problems, uncomfortable addressing them, or refusing to let other people step in to address the problem.

      1. Too Much Nepotism*

        Yep, I had a similar experience. The director best friend was the supervisor, the supervisor’s sister was a co-worker worker. The director’s brother and his wife worked there. Also the director was the bestie of another worker. This was not a family run business –it’s a roughly 25-30 person non profit. And it was clear that those people were untouchable no matter how incompetent (brother was a janitor–and there was always complaints from clients and staff who didn’t know “who he was” how disgusting our staff bathroom was–untouchable. One of the bestie lacks professionalism is very rude and nasty to coworkers in front of clients and is always undermining the other bestie of the director -untouchable. And the supervisor bestie just tries to cater to her not knowing how much she tells everyone she hates her. Oh and the supervisor sister was notorious for making mistakes, telling on other coworkers then acting aloof. The only person, i think deserved their job is the brother’s wife. She did get the job because of who she know but she does work hard and is competent. Anyway layoffs happened and guess who were untouchable?

    5. Artemesia*

      These are both the universe’s way of telling you it is time to look around for a better position.

      Nepotism is almost always a bad thing for other workers in a setting. There are exceptions. Sometimes the boss’s wife is a wonder. Sometimes the nephew is the greatest thing ever. But even so, you know that these people will be the ones getting the promotions and raises ahead of non-family members and family friends. The worst place to work if you are not family is a family business. (and for many people that is true when you are family as well.)

      Being jerked around for trivia by someone who assumes you have no life and are his personal slave is a sign that you are not valued. Couple that with the nepotism? Bad news. Being asked to rush back because a crises is occurring — you are IT and the system is down, you are an ER doctor and 3 ebola patients just arrived, you are working on a grant project and the renewal was just sent back for re-do by tomorrow because something is missing — all understandable. Being asked to rush back to send a fax? This is someone who doesn’t really see you as a human being.

    6. Julie*

      My last job was with a person who did the nepotism thing and made me stay later than him to do tasks that he had plenty of people actually assigned to. Turns out, he was only asking me because he “trusted” me. He had this weird obsession with trust they made him sound paranoid. He would ask people to tell him if he was being talked about, he had spies ride the elevator to listen for office gossip, all early warning signs I overlooked because I didn’t even acknowledge him since he rarely worked in the office. Somehow I ended up in his inner circle which I thought was good. It wasn’t – for all those late evenings, missed lunches, and general disrespect that was because he trusted me so much.

      Find out your boss’s motivations for keeping you around/making you come back and if they sound crazy, they probably are.

    7. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’m wondering about this calling you back…you don’t give your opinion of what it’s about, and it could be a wide range of issues. Is he passive-aggressive, and maybe he’s resentful that you’re gone when he wants something done, or he feels you should be working as late as he does, and this is his way of “telling” you? Is he just oblivious, or maybe has trouble with new routines, so his only thought when he needs something is to get you to do it? Or is he the kind to be manipulative as well as passive-aggressive, and maybe he is trying to get you to quit because he wants to hire another friend or family member?

      Those are all possibilities, each with very different prospective outcomes. But whatever the cause, you should set aside some time to meet with the boss and ask him politely how you can both solve the issue of administrative needs that arise after your (presumably agreed-upon) end-of-shift time.

      1. JMR*

        I’m definitely annoyed by him calling me back. He’ll only say I need to come back and not for what. I had initally thought it was due to me leaving a little earlier (about 10 minutes) on Fridays but last Friday I left at 5:15 and he still texted me to come back. I wouldn’t think of him to be passive-aggressive; he’s pretty vocal and open about how he thinks things should be and if he thought I should stay later for whatever reason I feel like he would tell me. I honestly can’t really think of any good reason why he would do it other than to be a jerk and show he has power. He kind of did the same thing when I took 1 personal day a couple months ago to have a long weekend out of town. He called asking where I was, implying was I able to stop by the office. I’ve been at the company for a little over a year and think I am now seeing how my boss really acts.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Well, even though you said he’s pretty vocal, he also sounds like he’s doing it to prove a point, which to me seems passive-aggressive.

          But if you’re fed up with this and you really can’t stand it any more, one approach would be to start going to his office a few minutes before you leave and asking him if there’s anything else that he needs. I would also stop answering my phone in the car if I were you, as it can increase the chance of an accident even with a hands-free kit or headset, and take that opportunity to remind him that you won’t be available during your commute.

          But first I advise figuring out if this is the hill you are willing to die on, or is it better to just start thinking of your Friday hours as ending at 5:30 or 6, if you think he’ll be punitive and you really need this job.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            Doh! Of course I responded directly to JM, then I see that both of my recommendations were made earlier downthread! [smacks forehead]

            1. JMR*

              As you and someone else commented, I’ll admit I could be more consistent on checking in before I leave. I’m thinking it’s probably something I’ll just have to put up with

    8. Hooptie*

      Can you check in with him 10 minutes before your planned leave time to see if there is anything else he needs for you to do.

      Side note – he is being a jerk by asking you to come back.

    9. M*

      I wouldn’t respond to texts and reply when you get home “Sorry, I was driving and couldn’t check my phone”. That way if he calls you can say “Well I’m almost home, is Bridget Jones still there to help you?”

      1. JMR*

        I had actually thought of doing that if it happens next time; not answering and just saying my phone was off. I feel like if I were to say no I would get in trouble but I feel like asking about why it’s happening could sound like I’m whining.

      2. Mister Pickle*

        Yes.

        What are the laws like in your town/state on using the phone while driving?

        Actually, who cares what the law says: I know in my heart of hearts that it interferes with my driving, so I simply don’t use the phone while I’m on the road.

    10. Jazzy Red*

      When you’re ready to leave on Fridays, go into your boss’s office and ask if there’s anything else you can do for him before you leave. Then, if your phone rings while you’re driving home, DON’T ANSWER IT.

      As for the family moving into management positions, I’d say that’s not a good sign. You might want to consider looking for another job. If the family does work out OK, no harm done. Looking is not a commitment, but you’ll feel better about them.

  50. ella*

    I had a little laugh to myself this week when I noticed that my organization is offering a “How to work in a multi-generational environment” training. I almost want to go just to see how they handle (or if they’re able to get past) the stereotypes, but there’s really no reason for me to. (My workplace offers lots of trainings and very few are required, you can usually go to any one you want as long as the office can spare you and you have a solid reason for going.)

    1. whatnow*

      What does that even mean? Isn’t that just working with people?
      If I was you I’d go, and document what happens/ask awkward questions…

      1. ella*

        It’s a Millenials vs Baby Boomers training. I could go and pretend to be the 30 yr old who knows nothing about computers?

        1. Anx*

          This is a little OT, but I really don’t understand computers. At all. I don’t understand how they work, the log base system it uses, or how wireless communication works. And I’m a millenial.

          I also don’t understand why emojis are a ‘thing’ and can’t understand how it’s much different from AIM smiles and old FB symbols. I was one of those that were irked by the WH millenial infographic, namely because it strained my eyes to have to translate things (I don’t ever encounter emojis in my life).

          1. ella*

            Oh, I hate inforgraphics. Hate hate hate. Just write a well written paragraph and cite your sources, ffs.

            (I do understand that infographics have their place and that many people find them useful, but…haaaaaaaate.)

    2. Red*

      My institution does that as well. The training is run by the same people who call all the female employees in our building (ages 20s – 50s) “girls.”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think it would be more to the point to send upper management to learn how to deal with all of us!

  51. Natalie*

    Anyone have any recommended resources on volunteer recruitment/retention? I chair a committee (as a volunteer myself) and getting more and more regular volunteers is one of my primary goals for this upcoming year. But I have precisely zero experience with this, and the organization I volunteer for is pretty small and doesn’t have much by way of resources.

    1. Elkay*

      Retention – show them they’re appreciated. I’m half a step away from dropping out of an organisation I volunteer for because they don’t seem to think it’s a big issue that after I’d committed to an event they a) told me they wouldn’t be covering all my expenses and b) after the event reduced the amount they were willing to pay.

      Provide a forum once a year for your volunteers to give you honest feedback. If you think they’re being unreasonable don’t show it, remember they are giving up their time and may not have as much invested in this organisation as you (for example I’m sure there are lots of people who wouldn’t have the issues I have over expenses).

      As for recruiting them, it depends on what the organisation is, can you get a stall at local events? I’ve been to a few local events where charities have had a stall with information about themselves and what sort of volunteers they need.

      1. Natalie*

        We manage plantings on a regional bike trail. So mostly gardening, occasionally some design or hearing a presentation about some other garden thing someone wants to do.

        Unfortunately I don’t really have a budget, but the larger org does a volunteer pizza & beer party every year. I could probably also spring for sodas or what have you for some of our workdays. I have a Costco membership. :)

        1. CTO*

          Key things that keep many volunteers coming back for events like planting/gardening:
          – Clear information in advance about when/where to meet, etc.
          – Site is organized in advance so volunteers can jump into work quickly
          – All needed supplies and materials are available
          – Someone welcomes the volunteers, learns their names, thanks them, and overall shows that they’re glad the volunteers are there
          – Appropriate instruction or training
          – Follow-up contact inviting them to stay involved
          – An understanding of how their work makes a difference and who their service benefits
          – (For many people) the opportunity to get to know other volunteers–working in teams, happy hour afterward, or other ways to get people talking to each other

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yes, please remember to say thank you.
            I volunteered for an eco-fair. One of the main people let their kid run amok all day, we all took turns watching. The overall attitude was “you should be grateful that I let you work this event.” And there was absolutely no out reach to newbies. At all.

        3. Judy*

          Certainly cold water/soda/lemonade/gatorade would be good, even if it’s just paper cups and a cooler of water and a cooler of lemonade/gatorade. Depending on the area and season, a popup shade tent for resting out of the sun might be nice.

    2. fposte*

      We’ve got a semi-captive population for our volunteering, so they already start pretty interested. But we do holiday/end-of-year thanks and small goodies and offer a small perk when they hit certain volunteering milestones (it would be like a gift-shop credit in the real world); we also give them a lot of flexibility and check with them to make sure they’re not stuck with tasks that they hate (interest is varied enough that there’s no project that everybody’s trying to duck).

    3. CTO*

      VolunteerMatch offers free webinars about the basics of volunteer management, including issues precisely like these. It would be a great starting point.

      If retention is a problem, try to get some information about why previous volunteers left. Poor match for their skills/interests? They didn’t feel welcomed or appreciated? They had too much work to do, or not enough? Lack of information before or during their volunteer tenure? Each problem has a different solution. It might be in how you screen, place, and set expectations for new volunteers. Or it might require improving how you treat volunteers already working for you.

    4. Hooptie*

      How about a picture of the group with an article describing your work in your local newspaper? Sometimes that kind of recognition goes a long way. And you would have the bonus benefit of additional media coverage for your organization.

    5. Verde*

      Retention – try making it really really easy for people to sign up for volunteer shifts. Post open shifts and have a sign up form (paper, online, etc.). Having to email back and forth with someone to find a shift that fits is a time suck for all involved. We use Shiftboard, but that might be too large for you org, but something along that line will help a lot. Also, clear “job descriptions” and instructions that give everyone the same info for the job so they know what to do and who to talk to about anything that comes up. Consistency is really key.

    6. ella*

      At the place I volunteer, what keeps it easy for me is:

      -Regular schedule. I’m one of those people who needs to know things a week or more in advance. (There’s also a lot of flexibility in case I need to change.)
      -Good work. They don’t have me doing the mindless things that none of the staff people like doing, and they aren’t giving me things just to fill my time. I feel like I’m doing work that needs doing. (And related to #1, I feel like the workflow of the place where I’m volunteering would suffer if I didn’t show up.)
      -Clear communication. I get an email once a month (not more) about what shifts I’m scheduled for. I also have access to a Google calendar so I can see what’s coming up (and when I’m scheduled).
      -The people are fun to be with (both staff and other volunteers).
      -I get thanked for coming pretty much every time I come in.

    7. Natalie*

      Thanks everybody! (And anyone from the future)

      I definitely thank everyone, in the emails I send out and after every work event.

      It might be the work itself, unfortunately – our primary duty is maintaining a half-dozen gardens, which means 85% weeding, 10% mulching, and 5% other. At least a third of the time I have to sort of force myself to go, so it’s not really surprising that the other volunteers come less often.

      I guess my winter project is figure out some feedback mechanism and then, well, we’ll see.

  52. Anna*

    New week; new notices that people are moving on to new jobs. Since March, 12 people have left for a variety of reasons. Still trying not to freak out, but seriously. What the hell?

    1. Ali*

      Something similar is happening at my job. I haven’t counted how many people have left. My old boss left for (non-life threatening) medical reasons, and since then, I can count at least 5-6 other people that have bounced, both on my team and in other departments. I’ve also amped up my own job search and would love to have something by year’s end.

      I’m not sure what’s going on at my company either, but it has me freaked out a little!

    2. AVP*

      Not saying that hiring has fully picked up, but I’ve noticed the same thing in my industry and the prevailing wisdom over here is that people who have been trying to leave their companies for months or years are finally able to get new positions. Which opens up new positions for other people, and on and on.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Ugh, it’s kind of scary, right? We’ve lost 20 people out of a 60-person division since March. Things are grim. You’d think the head honchos would realize their new hire (our boss) is not working out. Especially considering three of our star performers left and made it very clear new boss was the reason.

    4. Golden Yeti*

      I’ve witnessed this pretty much since I started, so I think in our case, it’s inherent. Last time I actually tried to count turnover, I think it was about 20 people in 3 years (in a small company).

  53. Elkay*

    I’m going to file this one as: there are no stupid questions. Just found out a form was missing from my initial offer package, thought it was a bit strange that they hadn’t asked me for certain pieces of information.

    1. Lizzie*

      When the other new girl and I did our hiring paperwork at our last job, the boss failed to separate it correctly. She had two non-compete agreements, I had two W4s, etc. I also didn’t ask, having not worked in the U.S. for a couple years prior I just figured this was normal! Luckily things did get straightened out.

  54. chewbecca*

    I’m going stir crazy. I cannot seem to focus today. Yesterday I was incredibly productive and got a lot done. Today I have much less to do, but I just can’t get in to it.

    I’m sure part of is the fact that I did so much yesterday, combined with it being Friday, my boss is out of the office and then throw in the fact that the entire city is going crazy because of sports right now, it’s just not really conducive to getting stuff done.

    I guess that really wasn’t very substantive, but I needed to get it out there.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have found that my productive levels vary, like you are saying here.
      One thing that I like to do when I feel I have “lost a day” is make a heavy hitting to do list for my next work day.
      I think these lulls happen for a number of reasons. “I can’t believe I finally got X done. I thought I would NEVER finish that.” OR I did so much the previous day I need to regroup and rethink my next steps because my work yesterday changes the picture a lot. And sometimes I am just plain tired. I need to spend time cleaning my desk as suggested above here or doing little things that have seemed to pile up into a Mt Everest size stack.

  55. Betty*

    I start my new job next week! It’s a bittersweet feeling. I’m going to miss my boss, she really is the best boss I’ve ever had but I’m looking forward to new experiences. Also, can’t wait to get away from the office politics here. I’m sure there will be a whole new set of politics in the next job but at least it’ll be new and different.

    I heard through the grapevine that my current department is disappearing so it looks like I got out at the right time.

    1. Joey*

      Why bittersweet? I always think there shouldn’t be any mixed feelings. Afterall youve just added a whole bunch of good people to your network that you can probably call on for favors and vice versa.

      It kind of reminds of thinking of finishing school as bittersweet. No way. My times over there and it’s time to move forward onto the next phase of my life. You can appreciate all of the good people you’ve met but there shouldn’t be (I think) any feelings that you are sad to leave. Co workers come and go. Appreciate them while you work with them, but embrace that nearly everyone you work with will change time and time again.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Why not bitterseet? Some people are more nostalgic than others. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong here. I was really sad to leave a job I loved because it was a dying industry. I felt the same graduating HS – I was super excited to leave home and go to college but I will still sad to leave my friends and the place where I had spent 12 great years of my life. I don’t think it’s a sign of weakness in any way.

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          Agree. When I quit my first job in advertising, I cried. I was leaving great people. But I was also poached by another great person who had already left. So of course I had mixed feelings.

          My current firm is a pretty good place to work and has some awesome people, but doesn’t do well with keeping junior employees’ salaries at pace with market rates. So, inevitably, a lot of them jump ship for large raises. They don’t necessarily want to stop working here, but they’re in the salary-building phase of their careers and they have to leave in order to make bank. I see a lot of bittersweet feelings on the part of those leaving, and I don’t blame them for a second.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          I think having to opposite feelings at the same time is totally normal.
          Very rarely is something all bad or all good.

  56. Sunflower*

    I know I’ve been asking a ton about project management so figured I’d get down to it and just ask what is a good way to break into the field. Right now I’m in event planning and doing logistics management- I’ve been ding this for about 3.5 years since I graduated from college- but eventually I’d like to get into the healthcare/pharma industry or possible go towards advertising to be more of an account/project manager. Any advice on how to get experience in either of those things? What jobs should I be looking for as I’m ready to move on from my current one and get away from events and more towards managing logistics and budgets?

  57. KD*

    I work in a large distribution center. We typically promote current employees to management positions when there are openings. This internal application round, all our candidates currently have leadership positions (one step below the manager position they’ve applied for). As a member of the HR team, I’ve been asked to come up with realistic scenarios these candidates might be presented with on the job as managers, and then walk the candidates through the scenario to see how they would respond during a more interactive part of the interview process. I am relatively new to the company and to the DC environment in general.

    I’ve got some ideas, but I’d love to hear others from someone with more experience: What situations with your employees from your management experience stick out to you? Why? What situation did you feel most prepared to deal with as a manager? Least? Thanks!

    1. MT*

      From the DC world, the two most common issues deal with associate interactions and customer interactions. Associates asks for a day off, but doesn’t have any available time to use. And customer has an issue with a shipment.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Giving critical feedback (ask them to roleplay it)
      Talking to an employee who wants to take on responsibility you don’t think they’re ready for (again, role play it)
      High performer who doesn’t get along well with others
      Announcing and implementing a decision the staff disagrees with/doesn’t support

  58. chump with a degree*

    Why did someone (allegedly in the next department) reheat fried fish in the microwave yesterday? And why did my coworkers try to cover up the smell with something that smelled like rancid hair-oil?

    1. Sascha*

      Ugh, fish can be so awful. I had a former coworker who would microwave fish all the time, and the worst part was, he did it in the morning for his breakfast. So first thing you smell when coming to the office is microwaved fish.

      1. chewbecca*

        That’s grounds for firing in my book. I have a coworker who reheats Indian food at lunch, which is not as bad as fish, but it does have distinct smell that can tend to linger.

    2. Felicia*

      A former fish microwaver at my work was recently fired (for performance reasons, to fish) , but i am so glad i don’t have to put up with that smell

    5. Gene*

      Could be worse, we had an Engineering Tech come back in on a frog-strangling rainy day and attempt to dry his socks in the microwave. That was about 15 years ago, and sometimes if someone new(ish – new around here is less than 5 years) says, “Joe who?” and gets the reply “the socks in the microwave guy”, they know exactly who it is.

      1. NoTurnover*

        This happened in my office, too, long before I started working there, and is still mentioned to this day. You never get over being Socks in the Microwave Guy.

  59. TheExchequer*

    Today is going to be one of those days, so I sure can’t stay long, but does anyone have any tips on negotiating or just talking with clients when it’s obvious English is something they struggle with?

    1. Sascha*

      I did an internship overseas for 3 months and encountered this on a daily basis. My approach was just to be patient, don’t dumb down my language but try not to speak too quickly or use a lot of idioms. I would also repeat back to the client what I believed to be their points – I didn’t repeat back every sentence or anything, but basically just summaries throughout the conversation.

    2. Diet Coke Addict*

      Speak slowly and get used to repeating yourself, and try to monitor your speech for a lot of colloquialisms–instead of “Yeah, give me five and I’ll shoot that back to you” about an email, “I will try to return your email in 5 minutes or so” and the like. Whenever I’m speaking with someone in a different language whose pace wayyyy outstrips me, that’s what I appreciate most. And it can be hard to even notice you’re doing it.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Excellent points. I’d add that email or even a bullet point of terms would help a non-native speaker, as a person’s reading comprehension is often much better than listening, especially if they have to translate in their head. The text gives them the ability to take their time and look it over.

    3. Blue_eyes*

      As in, they are not native English speakers? If that’s the case, try to consciously speak more slowly and annunciate more clearly and use words that someone learning the language is more likely to know (obviously don’t do it in a way that feels so exaggerated as to be insulting). After you’ve said something, repeat the information by rephrasing it another way. If you’re talking in person, try to use concrete samples of what you are talking about so they can see as well as hear the information. You could also write down the main points you are addressing. Many people’s ability to read in a second language is far better than their listening comprehension.

    4. Kate*

      I’d recommend you speak more slowly, and to repeat (sometimes it would take 3 or 4 times), and use as many other ways to communicate as you can (hand gestures, pointing to things you’re talking about, etc.), to help them understand. And if all else fails, use the most simple English (grammar & dictionary).
      And be kind, very kind and patient. Do not let them feel inferior because their English is not as good as yours. Focus on helping them understand. Be thoughtful.

      1. AB Normal*

        On top of that, please don’t keep repeating the same words over and over!
        If you say “for here or to go?” twice and the person doesn’t show sign of understanding, use different words, even if it’s a longer sentence, as in: “are you going to eat here, or take the food with you?”.

        Sometimes, repeating the same words just makes the person more nervous (“oh, no, she’ll continue to repeat the same thing, I can’t understand!”), whereas changing the words may help relax the listener, who may be able to combine part of the first phrasing with the second one to figure out the meaning.

    5. Janis*

      Rick Steves the travel write (and my Dream Boyfriend) speaks openly about how he can’t speak any language other than English but he has learned how to communicate by using simple words that are much more recognizable to non-English speaking people: Use car rather than automobile, train rather than Mtero/subway, toilet rather than restroom/bathroom (hard for us Americans to say, but perfectly acceptable for others), “where is” rather than “Excuse me, please, can you please tell me where X is”… I don’t think it’s dumbing down, I think it’s being realistic.

      When I was in France, relying on rusty college French, I would not have cared if they’d given me children’s books to read as long as they spoke slowly and enunciated carefully. And they did.

  60. CheeryO*

    Has anyone ever re-interviewed for a government position? I’ve been trying to get into a particular state agency all year, and a whole bunch of positions just opened up, including one that I interviewed for back in August. I’m just wondering if it will be awkward, considering that the interview will almost consist of the same rigid list of questions that I was asked last time. Should I try to build on my answers, or just pretend that the last interview never happened? (FWIW, both interviewers told me on my way out that I did a great job. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t hired because my exam score was lower than at least one other candidate’s.)

      1. De Minimis*

        I’ve been in that position before, but didn’t do so great in any of the interviews. It got almost comical after a while, I interviewed with one of the people at least 4 times, and after that I just gave up.

        It probably won’t be awkward, especially since they said you did well. I wouldn’t pretend the previous interview didn’t happen, but would just say something like “Nice to see you again,” assuming you have the same interviewers. If there’s something you can build on and improve from last time, I’d certainly do it, but it sounds like you interviewed well before so I would not worry too much about it.

    2. Case of the Mondays*

      My husband applied and interviewed but didn’t get the job and then applied again and interviewed and got the job. One of the tough questions they asked him was “why do you think you didn’t get the job last time?” This was a fed job though and he was already a fed, just with another agency.

  61. Lamington*

    My boss just informed us he is being laid off at the end of the year due to cost cut. The bigger cheese met with me and said my position will be OK. Now, I’m not sure how to act around my boss since I feel bad he is leaving specially after having a great year with our team winning 2 awards this year. My other coworker found a new position.

    2. CTO*

      Be the best employee you can be to him. Make sure to let him and others know how great he is to work with. Ask him if there’s a way you can be helpful in his job search.

      1. Camellia*

        This! And you can offer to be a reference for him; it’s an interesting perspective that future employers might appreciate. Also ask if he will be a reference for you.

    4. HR Manager*

      How is he feeling about it? Is he mopey, sad, or acting as normal? I’d take his behavior as a cue. If he looks a little upset, I’d offer consolation and support, but if it gets bad enough may be ask if he needs a day or two off. If he is so upset that it becomes distracting, maybe his manager needs to know to be able to manage this.

      You’re experiencing survivor’s guilt – this is not uncommon after a layoff. If your manager is still around, they must expect a transition of sorts, so find out how you can help him achieve that goal (and maybe let him feel comfortable to take some time to find the next thing) and have him exit on the best of terms.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Tell him pretty much what you said here.
      It’s okay not to be able to fix the situation. It’s not something any single person could fix.
      Definitely tell him the positives, great boss, 2 awards, etc. Your words will come back to him later on in a quiet moment when he needs that.

  63. Wondering Out Loud*

    Looking for the group’s input on my current situation. I’m wondering when it’s time to look for greener pastures. My husband thinks it’s time for me to move on, and sometimes I agree, but other times I don’t want to leave. When do you know? My current situation outlined below:
    -Been in my current role for 8 years, have grown in the role, taken on new challenges/responsibilities over the year and learned a ton.
    -Not currently paid appropriately for my workload and responsibilities. Has been addressed with my manager, and essentially was told I’m paid as much as I can for me role. (If I make too much more I’d make more than those “above” me on the totem pole.)
    -I really, truly, enjoy my day-to-day work. Yes there is stress, there are negatives, but most days I’m quite happy with what I’m doing.
    -My manager trusts me … SO much. This is the biggest part that would be hard to give up. I have a GREAT manager, we have a great relationship. She trusts me to the moon and back, she has very high expectations and keeps bringing me new challenges if I get bored. As a results of the trust I have a fairly flexible schedule (technically 9-5, but she doesn’t care about the hours as long as the work gets done, which it does. *I salaried.)
    -The thorn: a colleague, Jill, who I believe is an “untouchable” (probably related to someone very high up) who is essentially “blocking” my path to actual growth, up the ladder. She is not responsible for much, produces no work, has no expertise, yet she is in the role I should be in, but as long as she’s here… I stay where I am.

    Now, I don’t want to move elsewhere just to get away from Jill. I would feel like I’m letting her bully me in my career path. But I also have to be honest with myself. As long as Jill is here (and why the heck would she leave? fat paycheck/minimal work) I don’t see how I could take the next step, unless I move to a different business segment, etc.

    Thoughts? Input? Advice? Suck it up buttercup? I welcome anything! Thanks in advance!

    1. Seal*

      I’m in a similar situation, although in my case my previous director (who I report to) was almost completely hands-off. When he left a few months ago, everyone hoped that his replacement (the former deputy director) would make some much-needed changes to the organizational structure. Although I have no doubt he will do good things here, he has clearly indicated he has no intention of addressing an organizational structure all of middle management considers to be fundamentally flawed. This means that while I am a highly successful department manager who likes what I do, there is no opportunity for growth or upward mobility here. Since I am underpaid for what I do both due to location and the fact that raises are based on seniority, plus the fact that my goal is to move into administration, I am actively searching for another job. For me, the negatives far outweigh the positives of where I work, so I’m planning to leave – that’s really the question you need to answer for yourself.

    2. J.B.*

      How much frustration does the lack of progression cause? I would say look around but take your time to find really the right fit. It can take a while.

    3. The IT Manager*

      I’d be you in that the perks (great boss, flexible hours) sound like they outweigh the negatives (unknown upward mobility and no pay raise without it), and I would put off the job search. Great boss and flexible schedule are very, very important to satisfaction and the “great boss” part is very hard to asscertain before being in the job so you risk losing a lot by leaving the job.

      1. Wondering Out Loud*

        The lack of upward mobility causes moderate frustration. To be completely honest – I notice it most when I come in direct contact with Jill’s lack of work. Essentially, when it’s thrown in my face by her (intentionally? maybe?) or by others inadvertently.

        The great boss piece I think is the main reason I have not put my resume out there. I’ve updated it… but that’s it so far. I’ve worked for crappy bosses and so-so bosses, and having a GREAT boss is so rare. I think I still have some thinking/soul-searching to do. Thanks for the input!!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Food for thought. I really doubted I would find a good boss. And yeah that trust thing is huge. I changed jobs and my new boss grew to trust me faster than my old boss. I think that people who are used to being trusted employees, telegraph that to new bosses, some how. If you decide to job hunt decide that you will interview the interviewer in order to try to protect yourself a little more from bad bosses.

  64. KellyK*

    I’m leaving my current job, and I’m trying to figure out what to say in the exit interview. How forthcoming to be about issues, that is. For background, I’m a tech writer, editor, and QA person, and I’ve been here for 9 years. This has been the only job I’ve had in this industry—before this, I taught middle school English. The new gig is in the same industry, similar work, but a much wider variety of projects. Currently, I’m doing QA for interactive tech manuals, and the new position will include more writing and document formatting, and will be supporting multiple projects.

    Some of the issues with the current job are either things I don’t see changing or things that shouldn’t affect my replacement. For example, I work at one office, while my supervisor and everyone I work with directly is in another office in another state. So there’s all the communication issues and being left out of the loop that seems to be a natural part of being a remote employee. My replacement is in the same office with everyone else, so that won’t be an issue for him.

    On top of that, the work hasn’t been steady. It seems like I’m either up to my ears with 50 modules to review ASAP, or I’m getting two, or zero, in a day. (To put that in perspective, I can usually review 2-3 an hour. The occasional monstrosity with 60 steps takes a couple hours, but the simple ones run anywhere from 10-40 minutes.) It’s a valid issue to bring up, but I don’t know if it’s fixable.

    There’s also some tension with writers who don’t seem happy if I suggest any changes, although I think that’s pretty universal. One in particular is okay with simple, blatant stuff (“You spelled that word wrong”) but accuses me of messing up their schedule and productivity when I suggest punctuation changes or that they put figure captions in title case or hyphenate a term the same way every time. They also tend to not check things back in when they’re supposed to. I’m not sure if this is because they’re horribly busy, if they just don’t want to bother, or if it’s a deliberate “Hey, if I wait til the last minute, Kelly won’t have time to ask for any more changes.” thing. My boss does know about this, at least, so none of it will be news to him. My main concern is trying to phrase it much more as “these are things that need to be worked on to make things run more smoothly” and less as “my coworkers are jerks and/or slackers.” Especially since I don’t think they are jerks or slackers, not at all.

    Again, I’m hoping that sitting in the same room with the writers and having started on the project as a writer will make things better for my replacement. It’s much easier to be cast as the bad guy when nobody ever sees you.

    If anybody’s been in a similar situation, did you try for honest feedback? Did it work? And how do you balance it with positivity? I don’t want to sugar-coat everything, or there’s no point, but I also don’t want to seem personally antagonistic, petty, or bitter. (Again, I like the people I work with, and nothing I deal with compares with some of the horror stories I read on here. There are just some issues that I feel like there has to be a solution for.)

    1. fposte*

      I think my question would be how actionable your information is, which I think you’re questioning yourself. The pushback and letting-things-slide stuff is just part of the editorial landscape, and the feast-or-famine approach tends to be as well. It’s tough to tell if a place is disproportionately that way or not.

      One possibility might be to synthesize the issues: mention that you think working remotely made normal editorial obstacles, like people’s irregular production and tendency to let deadlines slip, more common and harder to negotiate.

    2. Graciosa*

      My first instinct was to tell you that this depends a lot on how your company handles exit interviews, and after reviewing the detail that is probably still true – but a lot of the material you list here seems to reflect a job mismatch rather than something correctable, so I would caution you strongly about bringing those items up.

      Yes, it is harder to work remotely – but that was not an unknown factor in the job. If you want to mention it, I would do so along the lines of acknowledging the attractiveness of the new position as allowing you greater involvement (although I’m a bit uneasy because I hate to discourage remote working when it works, and this would not be helpful to that cause).

      Yes, the work was unsteady – but is that part of the nature of the work, or a process problem? The latter I would mention, the former I would not.

      Yes, I would expect variability in how well various writers work with you, so I doubt I would mention anything in this area that wasn’t really significant (“I didn’t want to tell you while I worked here that EvilBob has been sexually harassing me and threatened the life of a family member until I found my new job in a foreign country where I would be safe reporting him”).

      My perspective on this may be skewed as I don’t have your job, so I’m open to hearing that no one in the industry would put up with the things you have endured. But I do have a role that requires working with a wide variety of internal customers, and there are certain levels of difficulty that are considered part of the job (last minute requests, the “special” one who doesn’t believe rules apply, constantly re-educating on process requirements, etc.).

      Complaining about any of these items may be normal collegial venting but would be seen as naive in an exit interview. These things are part of the job, and professionals are expected to recognize that while working actively to manage it (meaning figuring out how to do so effectively is a skill you develop and use in the role – not that it is ever entirely eliminated). If you can’t manage these, then the job is not the right one for you – but the job is not going to change.

      If the things you’re considering discussing in the exit interview are not going to change, don’t mention them as any type of a problem. You can mention them as reasons why you discovered the job is not a good fit (“After practicing as a surgeon for three years, I’ve realized I just can’t stand the sight of blood and am giving up the practice of medicine entirely to raise organic vegetables”) but not if you’re going to another job in the same field.

      Please assume that whatever you say will get around (unless you have strong reasons to believe otherwise based on your knowledge of your employer). If someone asks what was learned from KellyK’s exit interview, and the answer is, “Well, she mentioned difficulties in working remotely, with the uneven flow of work, and with some of her internal customers who don’t always respond well to feedback,” the response will be, “Well, didn’t she know all those were part of the job?”

      This does not produce change, but it does leave the impression that you didn’t know what you were doing when you took the job – which is probably not a good note to go out on.

      Good luck in your new position – I hope it goes well for you.

      1. KellyK*

        Thanks! That’s a lot of really helpful info.

        As far as working remotely, I’ve done it before and not had a problem with it, and this is the first job where it’s been an issue. I’ve discovered that having a couple people in this office, a couple people in that office, and one guy working from home in another state is very different from being the only person in another office. If everybody is “remote,” then it’s pretty much assumed that things will be done via email and phone conference, but if only one person is remote, there has to be much more of an effort to include them.

        The communication issues include things like repeatedly not telling me a call I was waiting for was cancelled, not getting answers to emails or phone calls, etc. I don’t think it was solely a result of being remote, just that being remote means I can’t actually knock on someone’s door and find out what’s up. (The worst was probably when we had funding issues and had to take leave, not knowing when we could come back to work. I emailed my boss Sunday evening saying basically, “I take it we’re not supposed to report in tomorrow?” because I hadn’t heard, and I got a reply that it had been resolved and we were supposed to come in the next day.)

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Honestly, I think exit interviews are completely useless. Most people sugar-coat everything . We’ve had people here try to be candid and nothing ever changes. One of my coworkers left a few months ago and brought documentation of rampant timesheet fraud to his exit interview and all that happened was the HR rep warned the guys committing the fraud that they needed to be more careful because people were starting to notice.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Yes, but if you click on my name you’ll go to my blog and you can read all about it! With pictures! :D Just search for the Britain 2014 category if you don’t want to read the rest (though all the latest posts are in that category).

  65. Chriama*

    I’m sure some version of this question has been asked before, but my archive-searching skills suck, so hopefully someone can point me in the right direction: what’s the best way to refer a friend to someone who may be looking to hire?

    Long story:

    Before I graduated, I was contacted by an alumni in my hometown looking to hire a new grad. We had an informal interview when I went home for Christmas where he explained the company and the kind of roles they’re looking to add. There was no formal offer of a job, but we agreed to keep in touch as I moved closer to graduation because he expected they would be hiring. Fast forward to the spring when he contacted me to ask if I was still interested. I’d already accepted a new job so I thanked him for his time and probably added some vague ‘keep in touch’ remark. Now I have a classmate (we were in the same major and the same graduating class) looking to move to my city and I thought it would be nice to put her in contact with this guy. I can’t speak to her work ethic because we never worked together, but we were in a couple classes and I don’t have any reason to think she’d be a bad employee.

    So how do I put them in contact? Should I email the hiring manager first and ask if he’s still looking, then give him her contact info? Should I email him with her resume? Should I cc her on the email, or will that make him feel forced to talk to her? At what point to do I bow out of the conversation? I know I’m overthinking it, but this is the first real ‘networking’ I’ve done and I don’t want to commit a faux pas.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. fposte*

      I don’t know that I’d recommend somebody if I didn’t know their work, and a referral is very close to a recommendation (the more personal contact, the more it’ll be read as your recommendation). Does this place have any open job postings? Could you just point her to those?

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Yeah, I have to agree with this. I would never refer someone if I was not 100% positive about their work ethic.

        1. Wilton Businessman*

          In my mind, there is a difference between refer and recommend. A referral is “Hey, my buddy Fred is looking” and a recommendation is “Fred is a super-worker and I would hire him in a second if I had headcount”.

    2. Wilton Businessman*

      Have the candidate email the hiring manager directly, making sure to mention your name.

      You touch base with the hiring manager letting him know that Suzi Cupcake is sending her resume in the next couple of days.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’ve referred people without a recommendation. What I would do is this– ask her to send you a copy of her resume and look it over. If it sucks, give her some feedback. :) Once the resume is sound, email him and say that if he’s still hiring, you have a friend/classmate who’s looking for roles in his city and is interested in his field. “I can’t speak specifically to her work experience, but I think she’s very smart and capable [if it applies, you can say you worked on some class projects with her and it was a great experience]. May I send you her resume?” If he says yes, and ONLY then, pass along her resume with your thanks. Only do this if you think she’s a viable candidate.

      I’ve done this several times for people who have come to me for informational interviews– never worked with them but passed along their resumes. Shoot, someone did it for me– a VP interviewed me for a job I didn’t get and reached out to all of his colleagues with my resume, and that’s how I got started in my industry. Granted, you’re not his peer and you’re not a “trusted recommender” yet, but if he’s looking to hire alumni, you’re able to help him do that.

    4. BRR*

      If you want to forward her materials email the hiring manager only and say “If you’re still looking to fill the chocolate teapot maker roll I have a classmate who is interested in chocolate teapot making. While I have not worked with Jane in a professional manner I wanted to forward her resume along to you.” If the hiring manager cares to act they will contact Jane.

      Just remember anybody you recommend, even in a case like this, reflects on you in a way.

    5. Chriama*

      I’d say this is more of a referral than a recommendation. We never got as far as a formal interview or references, so I don’t think my credibility is too much at risk (if I knew someone as little as he knows me, I wouldn’t put too much weight on their endorsement of a third party). However, I’ll make a point to emphasize why I’m mentioning her (I know he was looking for new grads with my major interested in living in my city) and I like AvonLady Barksdale’s wording.

      Overall, it sounds like the thing to do is email him first, then if he’s interested send him her resume (which will include her contact info) and leave him to follow up, right?

  66. louise*

    So far in the last 8 days, I’ve fired people for fighting (“there was a knife!” “it was only a box cutter and you ran into me with your giant belly; what was I supposed to do to defend myself?! You’re twice my size!” “Oh, so now you’re calling me fat?” “Um, yeah–you are.”), hired five seasonal/temp people and already fired one of them, fired another for attendance issues that had been PIP’ed but not improved, and generally chased my tail to the point of being dizzy.

    Being a one-person HR dept is equal parts exhilarating and exhausting.

    3. Mister Pickle*

      *sigh* I’ve been working from home for quite awhile. I miss all of those knife fights we used to have at the office.

  67. kf*

    I am so happy. I had an internal job interview on Monday and the manager just called to offer me the job. It is a merging of my I/T and accounting education and skills. The biggest bonus for me was my new boss is looking forward to me trying some process changes after I learn the job skills. I will also be moving to sit in the same area as our Business Systems (IT) department. I am trying not to dance at my desk.

  68. Miss Kitty Fantastico*

    How have people learn/practice better time management skills? I’m in an entry-level project management position and I love (really love) the work that my project team does, and am hoping to be able to apply for a promotion in the next few months. I get great feedback and encouragement from my project managers, but I know I have time management/attention issues. These haven’t been a problem so far, but I have a feeling they’d become obvious once I have the opportunity to move up – and I want to be “great” at my job instead of just getting it done. I can get distracted in meetings easily, even if I’m taking notes and I have a hard time focusing on tasks even when I keep a timer/detailed to-do list. I also worry that I have problems remembering details and smaller tasks if I don’t remember to write them down immediately. I’ve expressed worry to my doctor, who blames it on long-term side effects from chemotherapy 4.5 years ago, but that doesn’t change the fact that I feel like I can’t focus or manage my time properly. Any advice for effective ways to improve time management/focus skills?

    1. Julie*

      Oh chemo brain. I feel permanently damaged because of it at times. I can’t handle big giant projects and often need a lot of pushing to pass as “normal” and not as spacey as I feel. It turns out a lot of people don’t notice what I do since I’m always comparing myself to “before” me and after about 9 years I have to accept that this is the new me, even if I dislike feeling distracted and more prone to overreaction. Have you read any books about chemo brain? Most of them aren’t the greatest books but I sometimes feel like if I read all the books I can at least understand the changes that have happened to me and maybe I can accept it a little more.

      One thing I’ve done is to set up what I call “Project lists” and “Quick lists”. When I get a project, I have about 5 questions I always ask and jot down on a piece of notebook paper. I always carry a notebook with me and write things down or I can forget instantly. I make the notes about project requirements, due date, etc. After the meeting or call I start filling out an actual project list where I list out every single step I’ll need to complete the assignment, all the proper contact info, and if I draw any blanks I send an email or make a call while I have it in front of me. Then I match all those deadlines to my outlook calendar and create tasks with due dates for every task. I actually have 2 outlook calendars, 1 for meetings and 1 for tasks. I find the act of writing down requirements and rewriting them helps transfer the information from my short-term to long-term memory (since chemo brain is known to mess with the short-term memory) and the constant reminders make it so I don’t lose my place as I often do. And if I break it down into smaller tasks early then I avoid being overwhelmed as deadlines approach.

    2. The IT Manager*

      I don’t know if this will work, but I am planning to study the 7 Habits of Higly Effective People. The program was recommended by somesome others in a training program I was in. Most of them attended the in person training and that may be an option for me next year, but right now I am going to try self-study using the book, plus I have a bunch of audiobooks in the 7 Habits series.

      I did read the book years ago, but this time I plan to treat it more like training instead of just reading.

    3. KellyK*

      Maybe some of the same coping methods people with ADD use would be useful for you as far as focus? Different issue, but maybe some overlapping coping strategies.

      As far as remembering things, I wouldn’t worry about trying to keep them in your head. If you need lists, you need lists. Making sure to have a consistent place to list things helps–nothing like writing it down and then forgetting where you put the list!

      For focus in meetings, I don’t have anything useful, even though I have trouble with that too. What helps me the most is to knit something really simple, which is only appropriate in non-work meetings (and maybe phone meetings if you don’t share an office). It seems like having something to do with my hands makes it a lot easier to focus. Does taking notes seem like it helps at least some, even if it’s not fully solving the problem?

    4. GOG11*

      I’m an administrative assistant split between two buildings, one of which has an ‘office’ that is pretty much just a desk in the lobby. I have been diagnosed with ADHD and have had to learn my fair share of coping skills to help me focus amid distractions. These may or may not work for you, but they’re the systems I’ve developed.

      – Notebook for each semester: My “to-do’s” go on the top half, notes or things I need to remember go in the bottom half, and project- or process-based notes go in the back. At the end of each semester, I review the books and add what I need to to various process guides. I retain these and look various items up as needed. I put a circle next to each item “to do” and place an x through the circle so I can still read what it was. If I don’t finish something, I put an arrow and schedule it on another day. This allows me to see when something got sent out, for example. I am honest about my limitations and I say “if I don’t write it down, it doesn’t exist.” I may be chained to my notebook, but having access to such detailed records has really helped me do my job and track down discrepancies.

      – Forms/worksheets: As an admin assistant for a somewhat bureaucratic institution, I end up doing a lot of menial tasks. Oftentimes, I do one set of tasks twice a year. This makes it difficult to remember the process each time it rolls around. I have created tracking sheets in excel that allow me to both remember the steps and to track when each part of the process was completed. Most of these are terribly boring, so it’s nice to be able to focus on step X and just do it for each person on the list, then y, then z.

      – Headphones: When I really need to focus, I use headphones to block out noises. If I hear a noise, my focus is drawn toward it. If I have music on, I already know the cause of all the noises so I can keep focused.

      – Monitor placement: I orient my desk so that I am not directly facing any windows or the doorway. This keeps me from looking up to see what moved.

      – Group like tasks: If it makes sense in terms of deadlines to do so, I try to group like tasks together so I can go from one thing to the next with minimal prep or transition time.

      – Follow the focus: Sometimes, I have difficulty focusing on one item because I’m fixating on another. Sometimes, if my focus is unwilling to realign itself, I simply work where my focus is instead of fighting it. If you allow yourself to do this where you can, you may find you get more done than if you force yourself to grind through something that just isn’t coming.

      – Procrastinate productively: I don’t know if this is an issue for you, but sometimes I focus best when under pressure due to the adrenaline released by stress. It’s not ideal, but sometimes it happens and, when it does, I load up the ‘waiting’ time with other tasks so I’m still making progress regardless of the order.

      – Schedule yourself for success: On the other hand, be mindful of when you are most productive. For me, it’s when nobody else is in the office to interrupt my work, so I schedule projects that require sustained focus for times when I know there won’t be too many interruptions.

      And, lastly, be gentle with yourself. It’s hard not to compare ourselves to others (or to our former selves) but it seems like you’re a wonderful employee and you’re working hard to overcome the things you struggle with. I know this is terribly long, but I hope some of these can help you. Best of luck to you.

  69. CoffeeLover*

    I got a job! And one I really wanted too!

    I just went through my first real job hunt since I just graduated, and it was exhausting (as I’m sure many of you know). I generally had a lot of luck. I got an interview from almost every place I applied, but that also meant several intensive interviews a week (I’d interview 6hours at a place and not get it). The jobs I applied to were very competitive (they’re kind of the “dream” jobs for new grads), so I really learned the value of getting rejected :P. Now I’m all done and have a great job starting in August. I graduate in December so I’m off to visit my boyfriend in Europe from Jan-July. Ahhh life is grand. :D

      1. Lucy*

        That’s fabulous!
        Somehow reading other people’s new job success stories gives me a little more “oomph” with my own job search :)

  70. Wendi*

    I’ve been at my current job for less than a year. While I really enjoy it, a colleague has reached out to me with a phenomenal career opportunity. He has requested an interview next week. Without having any vacation time built up, what is the best “excuse” to get out of work. The interview will be held in a city an hour from my job and will take nearly 2 hours.

    1. Diet Coke Addict*

      I believe the traditional excuse is an urgent dental appointment, as dental issues really do crop up out of nowhere and need to be dealt with ASAP. Can you not call in sick that morning for some reason?

    2. Julie*

      Any chance of shifting your work schedule for the day/week? I’ve done it before and say “I have an appointment on xx, I’ll be leaving a little early on that day and working later on xx to make up for it”. It usually closes off questions about what kind of appointment and answers any questions about hours that might exist.

    3. Wilton Businessman*

      You: I have personal business on Friday that I need to attend to, I will be out of the office for most of the morning.
      Manager: What type of personal business?
      You: It’s of a personal nature, I’d really not say. If Friday is a problem, I can try and reschedule it for another day.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        I love this kind of wording. I’ve said this before on AAM, but I’ll say it again: to help yourself pull this off confidently, think of other reasons you might have an appointment that you wouldn’t want to discuss. Don’t actually say that you’re doing those things, but pick one and keep it in mind. It always helps me adopt the right kind of polite, assertive, you-really-don’t-want-to-know kind of attitude.

        Some ideas for things people do ALL THE TIME but might not want to talk about:
        -marital counseling
        -cosmetic surgery or reproductive healthcare (like a vasectomy)
        -going to court because a family member is in trouble

    4. Avon Lady Barksdale*

      Call in sick (or leave early) with a migraine. Particularly useful if they know you get them. Don’t do this on a Friday. Good luck!

  71. Moving Someday*

    My husband needs resume help, and I have no idea what to tell him. He’s an IT guy for a smallish company under the umbrella of a huge corporation. His job has few to no real quantifiable or comparative stats/metrics, and his manager basically refuses to manage anything that’s not a server. Reviews are automatic Meeting Expectations for everything for the whole team, with minimal to no comments. Luckily they do have a good, hard working team, so it’s a good thing most of the time.

    The only reason he’s even considering leaving is because we want to relocate to the other end of the country, which just adds to the need to have a majorly impressive resume. We’re too risk-averse to just pull up and move without a job in the new city.

    We know “What would someone mediocre do in this position?” question, but we don’t know the non-subjective answer. He worked alone for 10 years before a merger, and now he has great coworkers. They have no ticketing or tracking system- if something breaks or isn’t working well, they call DH or his coworker (depending on who they called before the merger). He can spec out machines, but the actual purchasing is dictated by the corporate office (so no saving money by changing vendors). He’s the guy that will hunt down a machine with a certain no longer used program and convert a document at 4pm on a Friday when a freelancer who should have planned ahead says he needs to work on it that weekend, but there’s no way to get that across without fluff words on a resume.

    He’s been in the same position for 13 years, but the parent company made major changes several years ago, and then the little office had a merger that completely changed things, so he’s not as stale as someone who’s been doing the same thing for the last decade.

    I’d be very grateful for any ideas!

    1. Wilton Businessman*

      *Note, I’m responding like he asked the question because it’s just too many pronouns as a third party.

      Yes, you have to be careful in this situation. You may (or may not) want to brand yourself as an IT generalist depending on where you want to go. In fact, you may want to attack the job search on two fronts; IT generalist and Desktop Support Engineer.

      The good thing about being a Jack-Of-All-Trades is you get to throw a lot of buzzwords on the resume and actually know what they mean.

      And every resume doesn’t have to contain 100% quantifiable results. We’re looking at the whole person and saying you were responsible for after-hours support calls means more to me than “average 1.2 calls per week answered after-hours in average 5.97 minutes”.

  72. Verde*

    Flu shots at work – how do folks feel about them? We have a largish small organization, 99 people, and diseases run through here like they are on fire. We are not a medical office or anything like that – just a high traffic/small building place. Getting a flu shot is a personal health choice and I worry about privacy and liability issues (even if they’re optional, there can be concerns), but we also want to make sure folks are well. Would love to hear from people who have had this at their work and thoughts on it. Thanks!

    1. Scion*

      We have them at my work (a pretty large company). It’s completely optional and completely free. They set it up in a large conference room with a screen/barrier between the people getting the shot and the people waiting.

    2. Julie*

      My law firm does them and it’s great. Flu shots are covered for us but they block off a day and have people sign up for times. The lawyers draft up a firm waiver, the health clinic (who is always a client) drafts up their own waiver with our help, and we sign both. If people don’t want a flu shot they don’t have to get one or can go to a clinic but it helps the entire office to be more vaccinated and it’s a nice perk to have. For privacy, we had times scheduled with gaps and a small conference space set aside where you came in one door and out the other. HR was stationed by the entrance for the forms part and the hospital worker collected the healthcare forms required and assumed the privacy liability there. I’m sure there’s more details I don’t know but as someone in a high risk group it was really nice to know my workplace encouraged vaccinations.

    3. Manders*

      I think it’s a great idea, but I do wish that workplaces that do it would also offer the flu mist. I get really woozy when I’m stuck with needles, I can’t go straight back to work after a shot.

    4. CTO*

      I really like the convenience of having them at work (and free, without my having to do a lot of paperwork). Nearly every workplace, large or small, I’ve worked at has offered them. It’s never felt intrusive to me as they are completely optional and there’s not much pressure to get one. I am not a high-risk person so I might not otherwise go out of my way to get vaccinated every year, even though I definitely understand the importance of herd immunity.

      Just make it no-pressure and frame it as, “This is a convenience you may choose to take advantage of.” Set up a private room for the nurses to use. If you do offer them I’d announce it soon before folks have already gotten theirs elsewhere.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’ve worked for a lot of places that offer them. I’ve never gotten one, but it’s apparently set up with some privacy (often going to a different location), so it’s not obvious who is and is not getting them. I guess if someone is nosy they could figure it out.

    6. Lily in NYC*

      We have a health fair in our big conference room every October and people have the option of getting flu shots there (and free massages!). If someone prefers not to get their shot in public, they can get a voucher to get a free one at CVS (drugstore). But it’s completely optional.

    7. Judy*

      Flu shots are included as preventative medicine in our insurance, but they also for convenience have a clinic come in and do the shots one day.

      I’ve had that at every company, some of them you sign up for appointments, some of them were just walk in. All of them include signing the waiver, just like any other vaccine. I’m not sure I’d notice who did and didn’t sign up, unless they were in line with me and we were chatting.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      My company’s insurance pays for it so I can go to my pharmacy and get it for free anytime I want. They also have it at work. I’m very glad of this–it’s less likely for me to get flu if I get the shot, so I do it every year.

    9. HR Manager*

      Companies should offer, but not mandate. Offices are germ-spreading-factories, 2nd only to schools and universities.

      1. HR Manager*

        I suppose I should add the disclaimer that the stat is entirely my own and not from some official site. But it sure as heck feels official.

        1. Lizzie*

          As a teacher, I can confirm your stat. My second graders are terrific, but they are also germy. Which is why the district set up flu shot clinics!

    10. KellyK*

      I think offering a flu shot is a nice thing, but you’re right to want to take privacy and other concerns into account. My first question would be whether your office layout allows for the necessary privacy, and my second would be whether you can present it without any pressure or implication that it’s expected.

      Also, your employees should be able to get free flu shots if they have health insurance. Are you near a pharmacy that offers them? Giving people a paid hour or two to get them done might be easier than arranging it for your own office.

      1. Judy*

        I would think that for 90 people, even if half take it up, it would be much cheaper (and easier for everyone) to pay one of those clinic companies to come, rather than even an hour for each employee to go. I’d guess most areas would have places to call to set up an on-site flu shot clinic, I think my company used the same place they had set up our on site first aid, aed & cpr training.

        I certainly like it because then I don’t have to go out of my way to get the shot.

    11. Anx*

      I support the option.

      I would suggest to make sure you take care of the other little things that help stop the spread of germs.

      If you’re not already:

      Make sure your bathroom and breakroom sinks, soaps, and paper towels are stocked; make sure faucets and plumbing are functioning well (water that’s too hot, sinks that splash, etc are an impediment to frequent handwashing). Provide tissues (and nearby wastebaskets) and a neutral lotion by the sink, to help encourage handwashing. Allow employees to eat away from their desks and make sure common surfaces (knobs, keyboards, fridge handles) are being properly disinfected each day.

    12. Student*

      We do them. They’re optional. We’re a large organization, so I don’t tend to see people I know while getting the shot, which helps.

      I think it’s a nice time-saver. I wouldn’t go to a special doctor’s appointment across town for a flu shot. That could eat up an entire half-day of work, especially if the doctor is running slow, to get a 5-minute procedure, and it’ll probably cost me a co-pay. I will go into the conference room they’ve set aside to get a free flu shot. It takes 15 minutes out of my work day to do it, and maybe I won’t get sick as often.

      I’d emphasize optional and reasonably private. My manager and my team never know unless I tell them about it. The only doc they have go through0 is a 1-page screening form about common shot risk factors.

      1. Judy*

        I like that we do it in a clinic at work, but my doctor’s office also does it more like a clinic. We took the kids the other week, we just had to call before we went so that they pulled the chart, and the nurse took care of it. Didn’t see the doctor, and it’s preventative care, so insurance paid for it. We got there about 20 minutes before they closed, and walked out in about 20 minutes, including the 15 minute sitting to make sure there’s no reaction.

    13. Sandra Dee*

      I work for a large healthcare company. If you work in the hospital you have to get one, or wear a mask during flu season. I am in the corporat office. It is offered free of charge to employees, family members and contractors. They set up in a conference room for several days, and if those days don’t work in you schedule, you can go to the onsite clinic and get it there. Yes, we have a clinic, with no out of pocket costs, and a pharmacy on campus. Very convenient at times. I am fine with it, as I always got one while my mother was living, as she had an autoimmune disease, and I didn’t want to risk getting her sick.

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Same here. Even though I’m hardly ever in patient treatment areas where I’d need to wear a mask if unvaccinated, I always choose the shot. The one year I didn’t, I got the flu and it knocked me out for a week

    14. Claire*

      My school (in the UK) started offering them to all staff a couple of years ago. I was really pleased and have taken the opportunity each time. Most staff did, from what I hear, but it’s entirely optional and there’s no pressure to get it. Most people were really happy to have the option.

      It may be completely psychosomatic, but since getting the flu jab I haven’t had the usual flu-type symptoms followed by throat infections lasting weeks that I had every winter for years before that.

    15. AcademicAnon*

      The university at my workplace offers them free to faculty, staff and students. I think it has helped a lot with the spread of flu on campus, because when it’s spreading in the area, there don’t seem to be as many sick on campus. Being a college campus communicable diseases can spread at a nuclear rate especially during midterms and finals.

    16. Jules*

      Our company does it. Purely on volunteer basis. They sign the form they would if they get the flu shot at a pharmacy and the shot is administer by our medical center team.

  73. Scion*

    How does one go about resigning?

    I recently accepted a job offer after months of searching (all credit goes to AAM), and am planning to put in my notice this afternoon. I set up a meeting with my boss, but am unsure and nervous about what exactly to say.

    1. Graciosa*

      “Boss, I wanted to let you know as soon as possible that I have found another job, and my last day here will be X.”

      Optional additions –

      “This was a very difficult decision, as I love my work here at Employer.”
      “I’ve really enjoyed working with you, and have learned a lot under your leadership.”
      “I will always appreciate my time here, and the experience of working with such a great team.”

      Bonus points for –

      “I [have/will] put together a desk manual for my work, as well as a transition plan identifying all open items that are not part of my standard work. I want to make the transition as easy as possible.”

      Good luck in your new role.

      1. Garciosa*

        Sorry for editing myself, but I think the better wording would be “accepted another position” rather than “found another job.” The latter sounds a little too “Finally, I am FREE!”

        You should probably be prepared for questions about the new position and why you’re leaving, but that can be more conversational. I just wanted to get you over the hump of getting the news out.

    2. Wilton Businessman*

      “Take this job and…” No wait, that was a movie.

      I have enjoyed my time at X, but another company has offered me a position and I have accepted it. My last day at X will be 10/31/2014 (which kind of works out neatly). I will continue to put forth 100% during this transition.

  74. Manders*

    I have a fashion question: are certain glasses frames too unprofessional for the office? I’m in an office that’s casual, but also conservative, if that makes sense (we’re in an area where jeans are business attire, but we work with clients who expect us to look put-together and serious about our jobs). I usually wear glasses with thick black frames, but I just got a trendy pair with a red frame and really big lenses. They’re really cute, but are they appropriate for the office?

    1. Stephanie*

      I’ve wondered this myself. I just got some cute teal horn-rimmed frames (they are proportional to my face) and wondered if they’d be too bold for some offices. As an backup, I got a more neutral pair of wire-frame glasses. I don’t think the red ones would be too bad as long as they fit your face? But I may be biased. :)

    2. Graciosa*

      I think the test is whether they will be perceived as a statement piece. It sounds like they could be, but this question is about your office culture so it will be really hard for you to get useful information from others who are not familiar with it.

    3. CTO*

      They’re probably fine as long as the rest of your outfit is “serious.” I think that one bold accessory sends a very different message than an outfit that’s bold in every way. Why not wear them to office on a no-external-meetings day and see what some trusted coworkers think?

      1. Manders*

        Strangely enough, the site I got this new pair from sells prescription monocles. But alas, I don’t think I can pull off the 19th century railroad baron look.

          1. LBK*

            I can only imagine how sore your face would be after a day of scrunching both eyes to hold a monocle.

      2. Adonday Veeah*

        Second time today you made me laugh till I cried. Seriously, just come sit in my office and talk to me.

    5. Mimmy*

      Ohh good question. I have glasses that has little flowers on the arms that are off-white and various shades of pink. No one has said anything to me, but I haven’t really been in an especially professional situation in awhile. They’re probably okay because they’re not loud and I usually wear my dirty-blonde/brownish hair down.

    6. Mister Pickle*

      If your office is relatively casual (as it sounds like it is), I think it’s a matter of how they fit in with the overall look. I once worked with a guy who had a pair of glasses just like Spider Jerusalem, and for him, they worked. If I wore them, I’d just look silly.

  75. Anonymoose*

    Any doctors on AAM?

    I have a question about applying to medical residencies, which are a hybrid between a job and continued education/training. When applying for residencies you are required to provide a personal statement, which isn’t quite the same as a cover letter. Many med students apply to 20-30 residency programs, and can’t possibly create meaningful customized personal statements for each one. Does a personal statement need to contain some sort of mention of why you want to attend the individual program, or will that seem forced/perfunctory? What if you don’t really know why you want to attend a particular program other than geography?

    Also, how important is networking in getting a desired residency?

    Tips on the residency application process would be appreciated, since it’s wildly different from the regular job application process!

    1. Stephanie*

      Unsure as a general rule, but I know networking helped my friend place in his residency. He was interviewing in a really competitive area (dermatology) and ended up not matching. On top of dermatology, he was also interviewing in really desirable residency cities like DC, Chicago, SF, NYC, etc (why anyone would want to do residency in a high COL is beyond me). He did a gap year/set of clinic rotations and his PI was able to refer him to a colleague’s residency program directly.

      1. Red*

        Ah! Super-competitive fields like dermatology might be a bit different, but I’m not sure if that’s networking really or your exam results if you’re right out of medical school. It seems like derms need to have spotless numbers to get into a residency program right after.

        1. Stephanie*

          Yeah, no kidding. IMO, the residency system seems a little perverse that the best and brightest are all angling to be dermatologists (to be fair, I know there are plenty of serious skin conditions). But I get why people fight to get into it between the cost of medical school and malpractice insurance.

          I think he must have had some sort of hookup because I don’t remember him even considering his current residency program (and in fact, was dreading moving to Albuquerque for residency, but ended up liking it). He also did have do an intern year (which sounded like a b*tch year) before he started his specialty.

          I do think you’re correct in that it sounds like a numbers games (at least just to get invited to interview).

      2. Anonsie*

        There are less than 100 derm residencies in the entire country– at least a few years ago, it was one of the top (if not the top) most competitive specialties, so not being able to match in without something really compelling is not surprising at all!

    2. Red*

      I am not a doctor, but my husband just completed his residency two years ago. Networking does not seem very important. The descriptions of matching which I heard from him and his peers is that it’s basically a numbers game. That said, you should try to personalize each statement with why you are interested in that particular program. All of the content doesn’t need to be new. It feels hokey, but on the other hand, these places you’re trying to land interviews at are sizing you up, and everyone loves to be flattered.

      1. Anonsie*

        Generally agreed (I’m not an expert, but this is also my impression from working in a department with a competitive residency program). I have heard from some of the folks that actually review these applications that they are annoyed when they can tell the statement is 100% copied and pasted for each one, but they also don’t care about it being expertly crafted to be all about their institution either. Same with letters of rec.

  76. Cath in Canada*

    I survived last week’s conference!

    This was the5 x 14-hour days conference at which I was both an active participant and a co-organiser, so it was a very intense week of taking minutes, participating in working groups, running around after volunteers and sponsors, dealing with catering and audio-visual issues, and trying to take in as many of the presentations as possible. It was exhausting, but tons of fun, and I learned a LOT about event planning, supervising students, and of course the actual science. In fact, on the last day, I was worried that I’d learned so many new things that I’d start forgetting other things, like maybe my address.

    We had nothing but great feedback, and I was thanked by name and in detail in two separate sessions, which was a nice ego boost! (Also, one of the volunteers thought I was a grad student, and wouldn’t believe me when I said I’m 37, which was almost as good!) I also made lots of great connections, including some very senior people who are now LinkedIn connections, and made a couple of new friends. Oh, and I have incriminating photos of very senior people doing shots in bars. A win all around, I’d say. We even had perfect weather all week, which in Vancouver in October is nothing short of a miracle (it started raining about an hour after the conference ended). Booking a harbour cruise as the social excursion on the first day was a bit of a gamble, but it paid off – it was spectacular.

    All week next week: PMP bootcamp (exam prep course), which I expect to0 be just as exhausting but nowhere near as much fun.

    Up after that: figure out how to get invited to next year’s conference, in Tokyo.

  77. Jojo*

    Hi All, I had a question I wanted to throw out there. I’m in my first full-time professional gig (for over two years now) at a place that, when supervisors give reviews, does not allow any person to receive a top overall score (a 5 out of 5) under any circumstances. The most they can be given is a 4 for because, as I understand it, this is a motivation tool. Is this common in workplaces? Or really motivational? It doesn’t affect raise or promotion opportunities.

    1. fposte*

      It’s not uncommon, and it’s dumb, because why would you be motivated to perform better by the promise of never getting a better score?

    3. HR Manager*

      It’s not common in sane workplaces, but I sometimes feel like that is a rare bird. I absolutely advocate for pushing back on 5s, and making the manager justify this to me when it’s not clear that the person is deserving, but to put a rating there that cannot be used under any circumstances is stupid. In cases like this, I would ask HR to clarify if that is the case, and it’s not a misunderstanding by managers (this is not uncommon at all for managers to misinterpret something like this).

      1. Jojo*

        So sorry, this is incredibly late and may not be seen – I suppose this is anecdotal, but a former coworker who had made an internal transfer right at the start of review period did her review with her former supervisor as opposed to the one she had just started working with, which makes sense. Her former manager tried to give her a 5/5 overall rating but HR had her change it to a 4 and told my coworker so. I suppose there could have other reasons, but it’s generally well-known throughout the office about this unspoken policy. It’s all so strange to me.

  78. A. D. Kay*

    Well dang, sometimes you can be a little TOO prepared when applying for a job. On Monday I saw a recent job posting for a company I really liked… spent a few days doing research and crafting the Best Cover Letter Evar (thanks for the great tips, Allison!)… went to apply today and guess what?

    Posting’s gone. Shoot me now.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Console yourself with the fact that they probably already knew who they were going to hire but have a policy where they still have to post the opening.

      1. A. D. Kay*

        That’s what it seemed like to me too. I put out a feeler to a former colleague who works there (in a different field from me), so he might be able to find out what’s up.

  79. KC*

    So–I posted about 4 weeks in to my new job FREAKING out about how I was worried it wasn’t a great fit. I was working crazy hours, wasn’t receiving much support from my “supervisor,” and was generally hating it. I was in a new type of company (consulting) and in a much larger company than I’d ever worked in before. So I wasn’t sure how much of it was learning-the-ropes and how much if it was bad fit. Some folks here gave me some solid advice that I should give it 6 months and see where things shook out. My 6 month mark was two weeks ago–and I started a casual job search.

    I learned about an opportunity through a former coworker at his new company (he’s really happy there). Fast-forward a couple of weeks and couple of interviews later, and they offered me a job! It’s a pretty lateral move with only a modest bump in salary, but the company is a much better fit in terms of size and people. It’s a place where I’ll have a lot of opportunity to be actively involved in shaping my domain within the company, and I’m so excited to be moving on, in spite of the red flag on my resume of a six-month stint. I start in early December!

  80. rp*

    So I work for a lab in University X. My professor moved to University Y this year and started a new lab. My current lab at University X still exists through the end of the year. This summer I traveled back and forth to the new lab frequently to train new employees. I was reimbursed through University Y even though I still work for University X.

    Both universities have a policy that you do not buy any car insurance from the rental company because they have existing policies to cover it. I backed into another car on my last trip, caused very minor damage to both bumpers. Reported it to University Y because they’re who paid my expenses and I was a ‘visiting employee’ they’re now denying they’re responsible for payment, and saying University X is. University X is giving me crap about it and I think they’re going to deny the claim as well.

    Neither one of them would have reimbursed me for the extra insurance had I purchased it, so one of them has to be responsible. Any advice on this?

    1. CTO*

      Is your professor able to get involved? This is ridiculous and someone with more authority needs to cut through the administrative BS.

    2. Tmarie*

      If you drive and have personal insurance, it should cover you. I’ve never had an employer pay for additional insurance because most insurances are for the person more than vehicle.

      I know it would suck to have to use your personal insurance, but having had 2 major accidents in a twelve month period, I know that the insurance rates didn’t go up that much! (Darn that teenager!)

  81. Rowan*

    I have to email someone infrequently – maybe twice a year – at my job and speak to this person maybe two or three times in between. Last time my boss spoke to him, he mentioned that his elderly mother was gravely ill. My boss has asked me, when I next email him, to make sure to mention that sympathetically. I’m not comfortable with anything I can think of, and would be very grateful for a suggested phrasing. (our industry is very informal, everyone knows everyone else, and so it’s not out of the ordinary to mention personal things. I’d be fine with it if, for example, we’d known he was expecting a baby around now). Thank you!

    1. Lily in NYC*

      How about something like “I heard your mother is ill and I wanted to let you know that you and your family are in my thoughts”. It’s really more about the sentiment than the wording- my dad died a couple of months ago and I was really touched when people I know through work expressed condolences, regardless of how they said it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Be sure to work the boss in there some where. “My boss and I heard that….and we wanted you to know that you are….”

  82. PMJ*

    The timeline for the interview I went on last week has been pushed back two months. Is that typical? Are they using this as a way to let me down easy? I’m confused because I got a call a week after I submitted my resume. They had me interview twice in a week, and now I have to wait two months?

    Are there any questions I should ask HR other than why have things been pushed back so far?

    1. Rowan*

      Can be normal – maybe the hiring manager has some kind of medical issue that needs dealing with and they want her to be back before they proceed?

      1. voluptuousfire*

        I don’t think asking why the timeline changed is unreasonable. It’s a hefty wait between interviews and I would think it wouldn’t be unexpected for you to move on to another role in that time frame. Of course despite the idea that some employers would want you on hold, panting and swooning, waiting with bated breath for this shot at their glorious, glorious open position. :D

  83. Anon Today*

    I just want to get some outsider perspective on a situation that’s been irritating me at work.

    Long story short, earlier this week while our supervisor was out, a convergence of factors took place that ended with upper management witnessing something out of context that is generally in line with standard operating procedure for our particular program but didn’t end favorably. Our supervisor invited a few of us involved to a meeting for when she was back in the office to discuss this “incident.” One of my co-workers and I discussed it, and we both expressed being upset about how we felt we were going to be blamed for something that is totally within bounds in our program. For some context, this co-worker and I have had communication issues in the past, which we’ve talked out and minimized, but I still get the nagging sense that she doesn’t like me and wishes I weren’t here. She would frequently talk down to me and give me what I feel has been wrong information, so that she could call me out for making mistakes later.

    In the meeting, our supervisor asked everyone for our version of events. When she got to my co-worker, she described what happened and essentially threw me under the bus, saying, “I think ultimately Anon Today didn’t approach this with the same level of nuance I normally would, so that’s why there was a miscommunication.” When our supervisor heard everything, she clarified that in fact, my co-worker had been in the wrong for her role in the incident, and she called her out in front of the group. Although I felt vindicated that her attempt to make me look bad hadn’t worked, I’m still really annoyed that she would still try something like this. After that meeting, she didn’t speak to me for the rest of the day. Today her communication with me has been very curt, until I overheard her and another co-worker discussing something that I thought I had additional information on, and when I went to inquire if I could help, she snapped, “This has nothing to do with you, we’re in the middle of something.”

    I guess my question is, should I speak directly to my co-worker? (My hesitation is that she’ll try to twist my words or make it into a bigger conflict.) Should I talk to my supervisor? (As far as she knows we resolved our issues long ago and it hasn’t come up again.) Or should I just let it drop and chalk it up to her personality?

    1. fposte*

      I would let go the throwing-under-the-bus thing, but I’d want the speaking-rudely-to-me thing to end by next week.

      Since this has already come to the attention of your supervisor, I might reopen a ticket there, so to speak, and say this seems to be a problem again after all, and is there anything particular she’d like you to do?

      1. A. D. Kay*

        I agree with fposte. Your coworker is very unprofessional and your supervisor should be made aware. So sorry you’re having to deal with this situation; I’ve been there before and it is very uncomfortable.

      2. Wilton Businessman*

        I agree with fposte, you’ve going to have to get over it.

        You could be the bigger person and initiate the conversation, but if you are going to have to work together, you are going to have to work it out. That’s on you and the other person.

  84. Rebecca*

    A local company is expanding again, and there are several job types that are a good fit for me. Their website has an option to apply online, and if the job you want isn’t posted, you can submit a cover letter and resume so they know you’re interested.

    I’ve been reading about the company and their products, because even though they have two large facilities 10 minutes from my house, I never paid much attention because I had a good job in another county. What’s really exciting to me is this is a US based firm, manufacturing consumer products in the US, and hiring local people. In my current job, I work with strictly off shore manufacturing in many 3rd world countries, and I really don’t want to be a part of this any longer. Would it be weird to say something in the cover letter about the local manufacturing aspect?

    There’s no possibility to grow or better myself at my current job. The company was gobbled up by a larger company several years ago. The current company culture is not to give raises or COLA increases, but to possibly give a small bonus at the end of the year. Everyone gets the same percent rate, regardless of performance. Health insurance copays go up, so take home pay goes down. I also don’t want to work for a company that tolerates the way most of middle management treats those of us on the bottom of the heap. Communication is terrible, the systems are weird, and most days feel like grade school. You know it’s time for a change when your alarm goes off and you just sigh before your feet even hit the floor.

    I know I can’t put in my cover letter “please rescue me from these crazy people” so I’m hoping to focus on the product types and local manufacturing aspect, and explain how my current experience in off shore widgets could translate into domestic manufacturing and distribution.

    Thanks for listening! I am over trying to affect changes or thinking this will improve. I feel sort of like Peter Gibbons from Office Space – I just don’t care any more. I focus on the 30 paid days off per year between vacation, PTO, and paid holidays, put in my time and forget it when I walk out the door. This is keeping me sane and I truly hope I can find a job where input is valued and working hard results in a reward of some type, not just “you should be happy to have a job in this economy”.

    1. Nanc*

      ” What’s really exciting to me is this is a US based firm, manufacturing consumer products in the US, and hiring local people. In my current job, I work with strictly off shore manufacturing in many 3rd world countries, and I really don’t want to be a part of this any longer. Would it be weird to say something in the cover letter about the local manufacturing aspect?”

      Yes, it would be weird! You cover letter should sell you–focus on what makes you the best person for this job. Trust me, even stuff made in the USA is probably using something imported in the manufacturing process! If you want to mention the local presence, couch it in terms of it’s thrilling to see a local company expanding and you know you’re the right person to help them in the growth process.

  85. Employee of a Shady Boss*

    My employment ended more suddenly than expected. I’d planned to finish the month to save up more cash before leaving but that’s another story. It’s a long story so I’ll spare the details for now but I’m meeting an employment attorney Thursday to cover my legal bases.

    How should I approach on job applications and in interviews “why did you leave your last job”? I’ve been pondering how to answer and haven’t thought up a good response yet.

    1. AVP*

      Were you definitively fired? Can you spin it into a lay-off or that you decided to leave on your own?

      1. Employee of a Shady Boss*

        I quit before expected. It wasn’t an epic walk-out or anything. Just handed in my building key, list of passwords, and had another boss sign off my keys and passwords had been handed in.

        The short version is when I wouldn’t do what he asked because if it was questioned it could have resulted in an appearance before our state licensing board so he asked a new hire to do it. She’s a new college grad and timid about questioning what she’s told to do. I found out and talked to him and he became irate and accused me of making him look bad. So I told him it’d be best if I didn’t return to finish out the month. She didn’t do what he asked her to do thankfully (she’s not licensed yet but would like to be someday).

        I voluntarily resigned and honestly feel great about it. Part feels uneasy about the future but part feels it was the best thing to do.

    2. Wilton Businessman*

      “I am no longer working at XYZ Corp. I was unhappy there and it was reflected in my work. I am looking forward to exciting opportunities at ABC Inc.”

      Simple. You owned it. Don’t dwell on it and move on.

      1. Employee of a shady boss*

        I’m still working that out in my head as to what to say even if I’d have lasted until the end of the month.

        Things were getting worse when I offered my notice and had intended to stay through the end of the month. I’d told my boss my plans were to help an aging relative.

        The truth is my gut told me it was time to get out with or without another job. I’m open to suggestions to explain why I left without badmouthing them or making myself look like high maintenance. Maybe I’m overthinking.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This is not the answer you expected, I know, but here is something that might help.

          Write out your explanation using every thing you should NOT say. “I wanted to leave XYZ, Inc because my boss was a nut case that kept asking me to do illegal things. I have hired an attorney because the situation was so nasty. [fill in with gory details to your heart’s content.]
          Get it out of your system.
          Once finished, shred it or burn it if you can.

          Then start to write out your public reason: I left xyz because I am ready for a change, I want to expand my exposure to work in this arena. I saw you had a position open and I have always been curious about ABC, co. I jumped at the opportunity to apply. (Ok, not the best, but you get the idea.)

        2. Buu*

          You don’t have to specify exact leaving dates on my resume I just put it to the month I finished eg.
          June 2013 – May 2015- Teapot inspector.
          So no one will know you left a few weeks earlier.

          It’s also going to be a bit difficult applying for new jobs if you can’t use your old boss for a reference. Only thing I can think of is you also think about signing up to a temp firm for a bit whilst you are job hunting. They tend to be a bit more relaxed about references and hopefully can provide a job buffer. You can then tell any new perm jobs your plans changed and use the temp firm for a reference?

  86. Craigrs1*

    I started a new job and I am really preoccupied with self-doubt and worry.

    I have had a series of really demanding jobs that I have disliked but been very successful at. Now, I’ve moved into a new role in the same industry, and I am racked with uncertainty. Partly this is because the department I’m working in is new, with vaguely defined goals and no real concept of what success would look like, exactly. My previous jobs were highly goal oriented with clear benchmarks.

    Partly, too, my new job is mostly about supporting another executive (I am basically her assistant), whereas in my previous jobs, I was the executive. (This isn’t a matter of pride, since this job is great and I’m very pleased to have it; it’s more about not being certain how to be most effective in this new role.)

    Finally, I have gone from working for a series of relatively small high-performing organizations to now being part of a huge, complicated, lumbering one, and I’m feeling uncertain about how to navigate this.

    I think I just need to calm myself down, but I can’t help feeling a bit overwhelmed.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Take a deep breath or two and relax. Institutional knowledge will come with time, I’d expect to take a few months to settle in maybe more if e department is new.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Let’s see. They don’t know what they want you to do, but you feel that you should know what they don’t know?
      Go easy on yourself.

      Start with today. Each day. What does the boss want of me today. Get a handle on that. Then move on to this week. What does the boss want from me this week? Then move to thinking in terms of each month.
      If no one has held this job before, you are pretty safe for the short run. It’s okay to exhale and focus on what is needed in the short run.
      Realize that in a year’s time you are going to be the leading expert on the requirements of your job. No one else knows!
      Be willing to give it time. And be willing to think in terms of daily tasks, weekly tasks, monthly tasks and gradually build up a collection of responsibilities for your job.

      I took a job two January’s ago, that was totally different from anything I have done before. It was a whirlwind. Okay, it was a tornado. I nailed down the recurring tasks first. Got those under control. Then I started to branch out and do the unique or one-off type things that needed to be done. Some things only occur once a year, such as writing for grant monies. That is why it took me a year to get to see the whole picture.
      The other thing that I decided was I would not make the same mistake twice and my boss even commented that she could see I did not make the same mistake twice.

      If you can move your thoughts from panic/terror to thinking of this as an adventure. Maybe it will tap different parts of your brain. Maybe you will find that you have abilities that you did not realize you had.
      Talk to your boss often. Ask her what is working and what isn’t. She’s learning too.

  87. Verde*

    Flu shots in the workplace? Has anyone had someone come in and do flu shots for staff? How did it go? How did you feel about it? I worry about the overlap of health choices/privacy, as well as potential liability even on optional shots, but we are also a small building with a lot of traffic and colds and flu go through us like wild fire. Would love any feedback anyone has, and thoughts on alternatives (flu shot vouchers or coupons instead of on-site, for instance). Thanks!

    1. Jubilance*

      I work for a large company, and they have flu shot clinics each year which are voluntary. They contract with a company that provides nurses that administer the shots. The shots are also free no matter if you have health insurance through our company or not.

    2. BRR*

      I’ve had it at my current and previous employer. I find it very convenient and I’m happy they offer it. I think it’s very considerate to be concerned about private health choices. At both employers they did the shots in an off beat place so you wouldn’t know who went and who didn’t.

      1. Frances*

        My workplace offers flu shots on site, which is nice, except that they do it too late in the season for my taste (November) so I will be getting mine elsewhere.

        1. Red*

          I wish mine would offer on-site flu shots, that would be so convenient. We work with a pretty big population, in direct contact with many many many folks, and I always come down with some cooties no matter how much hand-washing I do.

  88. Jillociraptor*

    We’re in the midst of a major change initiative that impacts my team quite a lot. It’s been challenging even as it’s exciting, so we spend a fair amount of time discussing some of the challenges and the pieces that don’t yet feel good. I have a brand new hire on my team who just started this week (who reports to me). His first meeting with the whole team will be next week. I don’t want him to get scared by hearing some of the (honest, legitimate) concerns of the team without having enough context to process it, but I also don’t want to give him anticipatory anxiety or overblow what’s really a very normal part of experiencing change. Any advice for how to help contextualize the challenges and concerns of the team so that he is able to hear, “we’re figuring it out!” instead of “everybody panic it’s a huge crisis!” when he is part of this conversation?

    1. CoffeeLover*

      Just give him the context before the meeting. “John, I just want to fill you in a bit before today’s meeting. It’s an exciting time for us as our department goes through some big changes. The meeting will mostly focus on some of the concerns we have as a result of those changes. I don’t expect you to process it all, but I think it would be good for you to see this part of the “change” process and to meet the whole team”.. or something like that. I don’t know the situation either, but maybe talk about the specifics of the changes that have happened.

    2. Mister Pickle*

      Or maybe talk to them immediately afterwards? “So what did you think of that?” You can address any concerns he has, and also fill him in on background.

      Unless people really are going to be saying stuff like “everybody panic it’s a huge crisis!”

      (I don’t have strong feelings on this – it just seems like one possible way to handle it)

  89. Geekycheek*

    I need some help. I work in a small company with about 10 people. I’ve been working there for over a year now.
    I was actually looking forward to my annual review as I’ve received numerous positive praise for my work, and hoping for a nice salary bump. But well, neither has happened, and the other people who’ve been here longer than me also struggle with getting their raises (one hasnt had any in almost 3 years, and the other started a few months before me and nothing for her as well).
    I would like to know how do I go about bringing this up, the review and the increase, since my boss seems more preoccupied with clients work than her own staff. The company is not in any financial difficulties as far as I know

    1. fposte*

      Has your three-year co-worker ever raised the subject? Did raises come up in hiring at all? It sounds like you may have had an expectation of a raise policy that they don’t have, so you want to steer clear of sounding like you got cheated here. But I think it’s perfectly fine to meet with your boss to say “Can you tell me how salary increases work here, and what standards I’d be expected to meet to receive a raise?”

      I think they don’t actually have one, and your question may not change that, so be prepared for a waffly answer and a decision on your part about how long you’ll be prepared to stay there if there’s no room for salary growth.

    2. Graciosa*

      You may need to think about the review and salary increase separately. If you’re looking for feedback, ask for that. If you think your performance merits a raise, make your case for a raise. Alison has some good posts on how to do this (check quicklinks or try a search).

      I would add that you might want to make this as easy as possible on your manager, as she seems to be more focused on other things.

      Good luck.

  90. Crash*

    Is it micromanaging to ask an employee to give you a heads up when they are going to leave the office for than 15 mins or so? My employee was out of the office the other day for about 45 mins and I didn’t realize she was going to be out that long (or that she was out of the office). Nothing urgent was going on. When I asked it she could just let me know when she would be out of the office for a while she said it was “only 45 mins”. I don’t care where she’s going or doing but just a hey, I’m heading out for little bit, be back soon. Too much?

    1. fposte*

      Not in most positions, no, and I don’t like the response that it was “only 45 minutes” when you made a perfectly reasonable request. It’s really not an onerous expectation that somebody let you know when they won’t be around for a while. They can email or IM or whatever works for you if they don’t want to tell you face to face.

      1. Mister Pickle*

        I wholeheartedly concur about the response “only 45 minutes”. I didn’t witness the conversation, but that phrasing bothers the heck out of me.

        My $0.02: even if she wasn’t a receptionist, no, it’s not too much to ask that an employee inform you when they’re leaving the office for awhile. I also don’t think it’s too much to ask for an estimate on how long they’ll be gone (although in a professional environment I’d draw the line at asking for details about where they’re going, why they’re going, etc, unless it was an aspect of an already-existing problem). There are valid business reasons for wanting to know when one’s employees have stepped out, and when they will be back.

    2. Calla*

      Assuming it’s not lunch, I don’t think so at all. I give my boss a heads up if I’m running out just for 10 minutes to grab a snack or something–anything outside usual lunch hours. “Can you just swing by and say, ‘Hey, be back in 20′” is a completely reasonable request IMO.

    3. Turanga Leela*

      Not micromanaging. This is a totally normal expectation to set.

      Do not, however, turn into my (usually great) former boss, who once sent me on an errand, forgot that he sent me on an errand, and left me a series of increasingly angry voicemails about how I needed to be reachable during the workday.

    4. AVP*

      That’s totally reasonable! Hypothetically if something big crops up, or they get a phone call, i you’d want to know whether they’re in the office, or when to expect them back. And if it’s not lunch 45 minutes seems like a big chunk of time.

    5. CoffeeLover*

      It does sound micromanagy to me. In the offices I’ve worked, people left all the time for meetings, to run errands, to get a coffee. Why do you need to know when she’s away? If it’s not urgent, then can’t it wait for when she gets back. When I can’t find someone in the office I need to speak with, I just send them a message asking them to get back to me when they have a chance. It doesn’t seem like too much of a request on the surface, but your employee is going to feel like you’re tracking her every move.

      1. Crash*

        Well, she does sit out in the front and cover the phones so I would have liked a heads up to make sure I was picking up any calls that came in.

        1. Calla*

          If this person is essentially the receptionist, then you’re justified in asking for a heads up for anything longer than grabbing a glass of water or running to the bathroom!

        2. CoffeeLover*

          Then that makes sense. If she has a position where you need to cover her when she’s away, then you need to know when she steps out. Simple as that. Say something like, “Jane, I don’t want you to feel like I’m micromanaging your time or that you can’t step out of the office when you need to, but I need to know when you’re gone so I can make sure I pick up any calls that come in. So from now on, please give me a heads up when you step out of the office.” I think explaining that a) you’re not trying to monitor her time and b) there’s a reason you need to know she’s gone, is important.

        3. HR Manager*

          Her job requires her to be at her desk, so no, that is not micro-managing. If that were not the case, then depending on her job and the culture, it might be different.

        4. AdAgencyChick*

          I was going to answer the same as CoffeeLover until I saw this.

          In my line of work the hours are unpredictable enough, and there are also periods of activity interspersed with periods of work, that no one begrudges you leaving your desk for an hour while you’re waiting for things to pick up on your end. Goodness knows we’ve all had to stay well past an 8-hour day, so you may as well take your breaks when you can get them. And being gone for an hour, as long as you pick the RIGHT hour (ie, not one where your absence is going to hold up anyone else’s work) — no harm, no foul.

          Our receptionist, though? She needs to find coverage if she’s gone for an hour, because that *would* result in work not being done when it needs to be done. And so does yours.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Not if you’ll need them for something soon. I prefer to know when someone is leaving, but perhaps that’s a holdover from my receptionist days. Yesterday, people were waiting for IT but disappeared, and when IT showed up, I couldn’t find them. That sort of kerfuffle makes me feel stabby.

    7. LBK*

      I think it depends entirely on why you want to know that the person is away. If they have any kind of position that might require immediate, urgent responses (like answering phones, helping customers, managing critical IT systems) then I can see asking for a heads up for any absence over 10 minutes. If it’s just because you like to know where she is but it doesn’t matter how long she’s away as long as her work’s being done appropriately, I don’t think it’s worth it.

      The caveat is that if she can continue to be successful while spending a LOT of time out of the office, maybe it’s time to re-think her level of responsibility. 45 mins is pushing that limit for me, but I wouldn’t get into it after one instance. If she’s taking an extra 45 mins out of the office every day on top of her lunch break and appropriate 2-3 minute chatting/coffee/internet breaks AND she isn’t making up for it by working extended hours, then I’d be concerned that I’m not giving her enough work to do.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      This stuff makes me want to bang my head against the desk.

      What about fire safety? The firemen are going to say “how many are in the building? how do we know we got everyone?”

      The other thing is falls happen. People trip down a flight of stairs and such. I want people to know where I am. If I don’t bubble to the surface in a reasonable time, then come looking for me. I had a coworker lay on the floor with a couple broken bones for HOURS before someone decided to go looking.
      Another person somehow managed to lock themselves into a small area that people did not use often. Still not sure how they did that.

      Safety is not micromanagement. It’s just good sense. I have seen too many strange things happen at work.

  91. KCS*

    bcc-ing coworkers

    Twice thus far (that I’m aware of), I had a coworker bcc someone when they emailed me. Each time (with a different coworker), the bcc-ed person would reply all, thereby revealing the fact they were bcc-ed.

    The weird thing is, the subject of the emails both times were pretty innocuous – checking the fax machine, or saving files into file folders on the server. Nothing terribly controversial or sensitive. And it wasn’t a mass email to spare recipients from a huge list of email addresses. So I admit, it bugged me . But I suppose they could have accomplished the same thing by forwarding their sent email to the third party directly.

    A friend pointed that cc-ing someone who wasn’t on the original email can be just as annoying. For example, if A emails B, and then B replies to A – but adds A’s manager on the email – then I can see how A would be annoyed. It implies that B is trying to “keep A on his toes.”

    I like the courtesy of adding language to the effect of: “Hi Bob, I added Jane to this email to get her input because she worked on a similar project last year.”

    So if you’ve ever bcc-ed someone, why did you do it? Legal reasons? Cover your butt? Also, you’re not deterred by the risk of being outed if the bcc-ed person inadvertently replies all?

    1. Calla*

      I’ve never BCC’d someone on regular emails with someone else, but I have used it before–generally, I do it when I want to send a group a reminder but don’t want to reveal who the slackers are :) (so I send “to” myself, BCC everyone else.)

      The only time I ever BCC’d someone on an email to other people was something totally innocent, and at my boss’ request. At my last job I sent out a regular “break” email that was a link to a cute animal video. My boss fund out and basically said, “I want to get these, but bcc me so our employees don’t think I’m onto them taking breaks, I don’t care but I don’t want them to feel watched.” So I did. Except then he did a reply-all, of course!

      1. fposte*

        Oh, yeah, I do those kind. Or I bcc: the list and send the email to myself so I don’t clog the To: line.

    2. LBK*

      I never bcc unless I’m actively talking to the person I’m about to bcc and I tell them I’m going to do it. It’s usually in a training context – if I’m modeling how to respond to a certain situation, I’ll bcc a coworker so they can see the response but they don’t need to be looped into the whole chain or be visible as a contact for the client. Or I’ve been discussing a problem with a coworker and I email the boss about it, but I don’t want him to know that I’m showing my coworker the response.

      I never, ever blindly bcc someone who isn’t expecting it, because the few times I’ve done that – just as you’ve experienced – they didn’t realize it was a bcc and they replied all, thus defeating the whole purpose.

      1. Mister Pickle*

        This. I’ve BCC’ed people before, but never by surprise.

        And I’m too tired to go into detail (sorry), but there are valid, non-sneaky, non-underhanded occasions when BCCing makes a lot of sense.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t bcc: for two reasons. One, it’s obnoxious, and two, I’m afraid that exactly those kinds of things will happen.

      My guess is that a lot of bcc:ing is for the same reason as your cc: example–it’s a shortcut for the separate email to say “I’m still having trouble with getting the information from A–see below.” Though sometimes it’s just obnoxious secret-camera action.

    4. Graciosa*

      I don’t do this, and I ask people not to put me on a bcc (which they seem to want to do for certain things because I’m an attorney). If you need me to get a copy of something and don’t want it widely known, just forward it later (even if it’s only ten seconds later).

    5. Red*

      There are a few reasons I BCC. Sometimes I need to discreetly give a documented head’s up about a situation I’ve been asked to track and report on to someone higher up on the totem pole. Sometimes it’s literally just a form email–for example, maybe a few dozen people need to pick up the same kind of thing, and I don’t want to spend time sending individual emails out, but I also don’t want to start a reply-all war.

    6. Anonsie*

      I do this when I want the update to go to the bcc’d person, but I don’t want them to have to get what may be a flood of responses that are not relevant to them because they already get a ton of email.

    7. Kyrielle*

      I bcc frequently when someone needs to be aware of something I’ve said but doesn’t need to be in the email chain. For example, if I’m asked a question about an issue by customer service, and my reply is, “(Technical details here) – that really needs to come to us, I’m afraid.” (Where “us” is engineering.) I bcc my supervisor because otherwise, if he doesn’t know the history, he may push back when it’s sent. But I don’t cc him because otherwise he gets caught in the email chain or the CS personnel think I’m cc’ing him to get some response from him.

      If I need to explicitly draw someone in for input, I’ll cc and explain why. But a bcc is very common for an ‘FYI’ in our company.

  92. CoworkerProblems*

    I’ve been at my job for six months, and I’m not getting along with a coworker who’s been there for years. She refuses to work with me or train me, which sucks because we’re such a small team (you can count us on one hand). She ignores me and refuses every offer I make to help her out. She won’t talk to me if she doesn’t need to. I’ve been told that the way I ask questions makes it seem like I’m undermining her authority and questioning her methods when all I’m trying to do is understand our processes better. Some of the people on another team are noticing her attitude and suggest I talk with our manager. However, I don’t think she’ll listen because she has no respect for our manager. I’m worried that if I bring this up, I’ll get fired for not getting along with my team. What should I do?

    1. CTO*

      Unless your manager is really awful, you won’t be fired for not getting along very well with just one other person. Your manager may even be well aware that she’s tough to work with. Also, if people who have been on the team for a while and seem to have a good relationship with the boss are telling you that the boss would want to be aware of this issue, I’d listen to them.

      You can frame it as asking for advice: “Jane and Susan have been really helpful when I’ve had questions, but it’s hard for me to get responses from Lucinda when I ask her about X. That’s been holding me back from getting X done on time. Do you have any feedback about how I could communicate better with her?”

  93. voluptuousfire*

    How would you handle a situation where the reference for your last job may not respond? I was let go from my OldJob last spring and it was a surprise but was fairly amicable. (I was there just over 3 months.) My former manager said she would be happy to provide me a reference and when I followed up to confirm a few details, she never got back to me. I followed up again to be sure and sure enough, no response. Over the summer, I discussed the situation with a friend of mine who does a lot of hiring and she offered to contact my former manager to check. I gave her the info to reach out and sure enough, my friend never heard from her.

    I’m not hugely worried about getting a reference from her since my other references are strong, but I am concerned that I may come up against an employer where my being offered the role hinges on a reference from my last employer. I’m considering reaching out to a former colleague who is now the supervisor for the department to be my back up.

    1. Wilton Businessman*

      First off, I’d take her off your list of references. I contact my references before I give them to a potential employer in order to give my references a heads-up.

      That being said, if you are asked for your last Supervisor/Manager, you put her name down with a note that she has poor track record of returning calls. That’s not to say she won’t, but it gives them a heads up that they might not be getting a call back. You may be asked for a number for HR so they can at least verify employment.

      If a former Supervisor/Manager doesn’t get back to me, I don’t hold it against the candidate.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        The company is a start up and after doing some searching on LinkedIn, there doesn’t appear to be one yet.

        I usually would give my references a heads up of any potential calls, but I didn’t this time.

  94. Wilton Businessman*

    I can count on one hand the number of times I have felt the need to bcc somebody (other than a huge list of recipients). Each time was a CYA move that my boss requested to be bcc’d on so he had it for his records. I am a firm believer of owning your actions.

    If I cc your manager it either means I don’t think you’re doing your job or I thought you did a great job.

    1. Wilton Businessman*

      Damn, too many places to “reply” or not enough intelligence on my end. This was meant for the bcc thread…

  95. Frances*

    After 12 long years, today I finally received an offer for a fantastic job in a growing industry. I am so freaking excited. I’ve been waiting for this day for a LONG time. Hang in there, everyone. I thought I would NEVER find a new job, but I finally did–and I am sure the excellent advice and commentary on this blog helped me. If I can, anyone can!

  96. Frances*

    ETA: After 12 long years at a HORRIBLE JOB IN A DYING INDUSTRY, I finally received an offer for a new job in a growing industry!

  97. Nerdling*

    I’m curious. How do other people’s companies or organizations deal with mental health issues versus physical health issues? Ours pretty much sucks at it: Physical health is very solidly emphasized, but mental health issues are still stigmatized pretty heavily, whether intentionally or not. Executive management talks a big game about lowering our suicide rate, but then you get reminders immediately following that you have to report any treatment you receive for mental health issues that aren’t 100% non-work-related and give permission for your doctor to discuss your treatment. (That is required by law.) It creates an atmosphere where nobody wants to admit they need help, so most people don’t seek it out.

    I’m putting together an email to our director about the issue, and I’m trying to get a feel for how other people’s workplaces deal with the issue.

    1. Frances*

      We’ve had several people at my current workplace (soon to be former!!! EEEEEE!) go out on mental health-related leave in the past six months. (Which tells you something about this place, but that’s a long story…) In fact, one person in my group is out on it as we speak. They generally handle it well, and it does not seem to affect the person’s standing once they return (although not all of them have returned). We also have a dedicated number you can call if you are struggling with life, family, etc., issues. I wonder about the privacy of such a number (I personally wouldn’t use it), but I know people at work who have used it.

      1. Nerdling*

        We have EAP and peer counselors, but I suspect they are very, very rarely taken advantage of. And sometimes, you just need an outside ear to bend, you know? One that isn’t necessarily somehow involved in the office politics or who might be able to be unbiased or just emotionally distant from whatever has you mired down.

    2. CTO*

      Gosh, that’s really awful. I’ve never worked in a place that had much of a stigma around mental health, and some workplaces have even openly promoted things like counseling. I even had a boss (social worker) who would tell all of us, “Everyone’s got at least six counseling sessions in them somewhere. Take them now or take them later, but at some point you’ll need them and benefit from them.”

      I’m sorry I don’t have any advice to offer.

    3. Natalie*

      I’ve never had an issue receiving counseling (I leave work for it all the time). But then again, I don’t work anywhere that has to track its suicide rate, so I’m not sure that my experience is all that relevant to you.

      1. Nerdling*

        It could be. I’m guessing that the general attitude toward counseling and other treatment is pretty open and relaxed? If you get information (emails or brochures or something) providing physical health advice, do you also get similar information on mental health?

        We get monthly newsletters emailed out that talk about health issues and how to prevent/treat them, from heart disease to dehydration, but most of the mental health stuff that gets mentioned is something like “What is Seasonal Affective Disorder?” rather than “Do you need to talk to someone? Here’s how.”

        I’d like to see us change our overall attitude, until we’re as blase about mental health as we are about physical health.

        1. Natalie*

          (I realized as I’m writing this that my HR department is kind of unorganized.)

          We had a newsletter for about 18 months (someone’s pet project, I guess) and it was just as likely to include mental health stuff as physical health stuff. And once, a chain forward about cancer prevention that was a bunch of crazy nonsense. Maybe that’s why we don’t have it anymore. At some other point our EAP was sending out a monthly health-related article, and it was often about mental health and how the EAP could help. And our insurance has AMAZING mental health coverage, both inpatient and outpatient.

          So disorganization aside, I’d say they’re fairly relaxed about it.

          Whatever the reason, your workplace sounds very stressful.

  98. irma s*

    Hi everyone! I have a job application/job searching/self esteem question:

    First, a little background: It’s a well-known but rarely spoken-of fact that the fashion industry is really for beautiful young women who have independent sources of money (this is a kind way of saying “trust fund”). This is because working in fashion, be it publishing, PR, marketing, or high-end retail… pays very, very little. Until you get to an executive level? Embarrassingly little.

    Despite this obstacle (I am pretty, but not beautiful, and I do not have a trust fund), I desperately want to work in fashion. I am 29, which is — and I am sorry to offend anyone — *ancient* in this line of work. I look at the linkedins of sales managers and designers and really prestigious positions at the companies I want to work for, and they are all 26, 25, 24… and it makes me really depressed. Why? Because I know that I am likely smarter than them, likely have much more workplace experience and professionalism, but I didn’t start my career at FIT knowing that I would want to be in this line of work. I was actually pre-med in college and then, when that changed, studied political science in hopes of policy job/related graduate degree. I was discouraged from “doing fashion” because I was told time and time again that it was a frivolous thing and that I was too smart for it. Well, I have worked in retail for a long time now, and want to do corporate work in the fashion industry, but I hate that I may not be seen as a desirable candidate because I’m old, am relatively new to the field, and I am intimidated and embarrassed at the idea of working with/for these younger women who have known immense privilege their entire lives.

    I don’t act 29 and I don’t look it, either (whatever that means — but people remark that I look like I’m just out of undergrad), but I am petrified and anxious about writing cover letters to be read by these “cool girls” who might dismiss me because their hiring criteria is governed by “good vibes” and a strikingly gorgeous, dewy, ingenue appearance. I want to work at select companies that are just starting out, so I can be on the ground floor with some really creative people doing really good work and fun things. I just don’t know who’s gonna want me, and it makes me nervous and depressed at the same time.

    How can you get over cover letter anxiety of this sort? Is there anything that I need to uh, explain? Has anyone else had this problem?

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    1. LBK*

      I’m gonna be totally honest – I think you need to completely throw out your impression of the kind of people who work for these companies. Sure, there is probably a certain appearance that’s expected, and there’s not really anything you can do about that. But if you’re going into this assuming that you’re smarter and less naïve than everyone you’ll be working with (including the person who will be hiring you) then you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Obviously this industry attracted you – what makes you believe that everyone else who works in fashion is a dim-witted model and isn’t a highly qualified person who went through exactly what you’re going through now?

      I think it’s funny that you frame this as you having low self-esteem, because it sounds like you actually have a really high opinion of yourself intellectually, just not physically – and whether that’s justified or not, it’s not a good mindset to have going into applying for jobs. It will come through in your resume, your cover letter and your interview.

      So start over. Start with assuming that the person who will read your resume is a smart, determined person just like any other manager and they’re seeking out killer candidates to work for them, not just the hottest chicks they can wrangle in the door. At the end of the day, there’s absolutely nothing you can do about your appearance, nor your ability to sell someone on it – but you can sell them on your intelligence and your other qualifications, so focus on those and make sure they shine through in your application materials.

      I think right now you’re assuming that the only way you’ll impress your dopey hiring manager is with your face. Instead, assume you can impress your smart hiring manager with your resume – because if the hiring manager actually is an idiot who purely hires on looks, why do you even want to work for them anyway?

      1. LBK*

        And, FWIW, people who hire based on superficial or stupid qualifications like how “cool” you are exist in every industry. Get around them the same way you would in any other line of work: focus on what would make you a good employee and thus self-select out of places with bad management.

      2. irma s*

        Hi. I actually know this because I know these individuals. I have done extensive networking, have met them, and I also have worked in one corner of the fashion industry for 10 years. Take my word for it.
        And I have never thought they were dim-witted models, I have thought that they were young women who had everything going for them and that is how they got a lot of breaks at a young age. It is easy to say that you want to start a fashion blog when your family is very wealthy. What was a hobby then turned into a lucrative and influential career, sort of by accident. These are the kinds of women I want to work for, because I do think they’re smart… but they are younger and prettier than me and may be judgmental.

        And my problem really has less to do with my appearance than my age and qualifications. I didn’t have any fashion internships in college because I wasn’t studying fashion, and I feel as if these women will think I’m too old for an entry-level career shift — because that’s what I would be, entry-level.

        I am embarrassed that I’ll make a fool out of myself for both being too old and even though having held managerial positions, too inexperienced.

        1. Wilton Businessman*

          First of all, you’re not entry level. True, you may not have experience in the exact industry, but you have experience in the business world. You may be selling yourself short by applying to entry level jobs.

          Second, you need a different perspective. Opportunities are out there to take. Sure, some people fall into a good things by sheer luck. But most successful people get to the point they are because they reached for the skies and work their tail off. Do good work, be the best you can, and use other people’s rejection as your motivation.

          1. irma s*

            Thank you very much. This was very helpful in making me feel a little more positive about my efforts.

        2. Dan*

          irma s.,

          A lot of people come here looking for advice (or something, I’m not sure what sometimes) and then shoot down the feedback that’s given. This a free message board that’s immensely helpful, but because it’s free, people don’t have the inclination to navigate an extremely convoluted path that the question asker creates.

          You paint a picture about fashion that isn’t pretty (the only thing I know about fashion is that I will never be on the cover of GQ), and when someone writes and says, “You know what? Your frame of reference is off.” You write back and say, “Nope, it’s spot on.” My fist question would be, if that’s truly the environment you will be working in, won’t you be absolutely miserable and quit within a year? None of us here want to encourage someone to go down a career path that will just end in pain and misery.

          And what you know about the fashion industry is limited to… what you know. If LBK is telling you you have it all wrong, fashion’s not like that, what she’s saying is that the fashion world *she knows* is not like that. A better question for her is how can you get exposed to the corner of her world that she knows and isn’t so catty.

          But if you’re insistent on working with the catty group of people you know in your corner of the fashion world, the best way to get advice on how to break into that corner is to… ask them. Connections are everything. Talk to the people who are closest to you in that world. If they won’t help, there’s not a whole lot random strangers on the internet can do.

          1. irma s*

            I don’t think they’re catty, I’m just not sure they’re experienced enough in HR to see potential in me as an excellent employee. I’m not shooting down anyone’s advice. LMK isn’t wrong, but neither am I. I should go in with my head held high — the advice I’m seeking is how to psych myself up despite what I know about myself, and what I know about the industry.

            I don’t think a career in fashion will end in pain and misery if one truly has a passion for the product and the art and development behind it, and I do. That’s why I’m choosing this instead of law school. But I’m scared. That’s all.

            Thanks for your thoughts.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Everyone gets scared at some point. You can be scared crapless and still hold your head high. It can be done. It’s what we do when we are confronted with fear/pain/etc that makes or breaks the quality of our lives.

    2. LolaK*

      I’m 30 and I have been working in the corporate office of a luxury retail company. I also have a degree from an ivy and started my college journey as a bio major. I put in more brain work at my current job than I did when I interned in finance.

      What area are you looking to get into- design? buying? planning? I’m a little surprised at your description of people who work in fashion because it does feel a little stereotypical. The most successful fashion people are intelligent and driven! The companies I have worked for definitely did not pick people based on who seemed cool and beautiful-they wanted people who would help drive multi-billion dollar businesses!

  99. Lucy Ricardo*

    So we’ve been in the process of hiring a new counselor for our hotline and we thought we’d found the perfect person. Our #1 candidate for this, had written in their application and spoke about in the interview that they had volunteered extensively for an organization related to our field. So while we were conducting references, we noticed they had only given us 2 references so we decided to call a guy who works for the organization. When we call for the reference, he has no clue who the applicant is. Eventually he remembers that the applicant came in and got an application to volunteer, but never returned the application so he straight up lied about it (probably figuring we wouldn’t call them because they weren’t on the reference list). On top of that, he mentioned that he would be attending a training that we typically send new counselors to, but he never showed up. We know this because our supervisor always tells a personal perspective at this training and didn’t see him (and he didn’t mention during the interview that he’d be there…). While I know we’ve heard about this, this was my first time being involved in hiring so…. Crazy.

    1. Adonday Veeah*

      This is infrequent, but not unheard of. Many companies do not check references at all, so these folks actually do get jobs. Good for you for doing your due diligence. You dodged a bullet. Save this story to tell co-workers over after-work beers, and move on.

  100. Kate*

    Hello, I hope I can get some good advice here!
    How do I make a speculative application to a company I’d like to work for? (Not volunteering, but actualy, full-time working for, you know, salary.) Sadly, I have insignificant experience in the field related to my university degree, and only non-relevant work experience (admin, customer service), and I want to finally work in my field. (BA in Japanese, so something to do with Japan or Asia. Or international relations.)

    So I’m making some speculative applications, because I don’t see any job postings for the moment at these companies. What do I write in a cover letter when making a speculative approach? How do I tailor my CV when there’s no job ad? Do you have any other tips for me?
    I’d be grateful for some advice! Thanks in advance!

  101. Anony*

    I work in HR and have a certification in my field and a lot of work experience, however I do have a history of job hopping. The main reason for it is my seeming inability to get along with coworkers – every position that I’ve had, I’ve done the wrong thing or had the wrong body language, etc. Obviously the problem is with me since I’m the common denominator.

    I’m in a new role (1 year contract-to-hire, 3 months in) and things were going very well until my beloved cat passed away unexpectedly. The very next day, I had to attend a work function and I was extremely depressed and tired, although I did my usual trying-to-fake-perky performance. However, it wasn’t good enough and I was talked to afterwards about not showing energy at the event or initiative, and having poor body language in a pre-event meeting. The managers here are very sensitive to interpersonal issues and I seem to be doing everything wrong (my manager was not present at the event and received complaints from the managers who were).

    One thing led to another and I’m now on a PIP for these issues and other related occurrences, and have been pulled off of a big project.

    When I was looking for advice on an online forum, someone gently asked if I’d ever considered being tested for Asperger’s, as my workplace issues do seem to be caused by a lack of interpersonal skills. In reality, I have considered that many times, usually after an incident such as this at a workplace, but my husband has always talked me out of pursuing it. I have many of the qualities of an Aspie and fit the profile very neatly.

    I am moving forward with an appointment at my GP for a referral to a psychiatrist who can help diagnose adult Asperger’s. From my research, it sounds like this process can take a year or more, and can be costly, over $1000. I may not be able to get the diagnosis officially if we can’t afford the testing procedures. With adult Asperger’s, again from what I’ve read, self-diagnosis is very common and accepted, so I have self-diagnosed myself as being an Aspie and will continue to pursue a medical diagnosis if I can.

    My question to you is, since I am on a PIP, I am worried about being fired if I can’t “turn it around.” Would it be worthwhile to tell my manager about my self-diagnosis and that I’m pursuing a medical diagnosis? Or would that just tip them off that I might be a problem child and they should get rid of me before I get an official diagnosis. I know that Asperger’s is protected under the ADA so theoretically if I were able to get a medical diagnosis, I could ask for accommodations such as working from home or not having to participate in meetings. I don’t really want accommodations at this point; I just want them to understand that I have interpersonal problems sometimes and to be patient with me.

    1. Calla*

      In my experience, self-diagnoses are not taken that seriously (in general–even if it’s accepted within a particular community). What you might be able to do (disclaimer: I am not a manager!) is say that your GP thinks you may have it and has you referred you for further testing. If it were me, I would want to be giving the message “This is not me just being careless or clueless, and I am pursuing a way to treat it.”

    2. CTO*

      Do you have an Employee Assistance Program at work? They could be very helpful to talk with about this, and might be able to offer some new resources as well.

      Whether or not to disclose to your manager might depend on how your relationship is with them currently. Do you get the impression that they want you to succeed here and are willing to keep supporting you? Or are they eager to get rid of you and the PIP is just a formality along the way? I know it can be tough to sense such things, but if you have any indication one way or the other, that might help you decide whether or not disclosing would work in your favor.

      If you do disclose, I’d come prepared to share really clear, specific information about how Asperger’s makes certain things difficult for you and how you propose working around those challenges. It would be helpful if you can point to action steps you are taking to address this new information you’ve learned about yourself. If you can demonstrate that you are aware of the problems you’re having at work, really wanting to fix them, and taking action on your own to do the best you can, you’ll probably have the best chance of getting your manager on your side.

      Good luck!

    3. Joey*

      Don’t self diagnose. You are not a medical professional and it will look like you’re either attempting to falsely gain ADA protections or you will look ignorant.

      Being in HR you know that there are no tricks to the PIP. Do everything in it to the tee. Hopefully you gave input into the wording of the PIP that resulted in very objective black and white criteria. But three months in suggests you have a long way to go. Also, remember that interpersonal skills are typically crucial for an HR role so don’t expect that they will give you a lot of leeway in terms of needing more time, requesting to work from home or not attend meetings. Having great interpersonal skills is usually one of the biggest requirements for HR. If I were you Id start looking at more behind the scenes roles.

    4. soitgoes*

      I would mention that you’re in treatment and that the possibility of you having the disability has come up.

      The thing is, putting a name on your troubles doesn’t make the issue go away, nor does it negate the problems that other people are perceiving. If you’re in a position/pursuing jobs that require a lot of communication or customer service, you might need to rethink that, for the sake of your ability to work and for your general happiness. Full disclosure: I’ve worked with someone who had asperger’s, and while he had personality quirks that made him difficult to deal with sometimes, it was never a problem for the work itself. Heck, I’m a huge oddball who doesn’t always get along with people, and that’s never been a problem. There are so many jobs out there that don’t hinge on whether other people “get” the person that you are.

    5. Graciosa*

      You can ask for accommodations that will enable you to perform the essential functions of the job, but not to avoid them. I’m a little concerned that you’re in an HR role which presumably requires a high level of interpersonal skill and are thinking about accommodations that would enable you to not have to go in to work (and deal with people) or participate in meetings. These types of things strike me (admittedly without knowing specifics) as likely to be essential functions of the job.

      I think Joey had a good suggestion about starting to look at related roles where you can take advantage of your expertise in a different job that does not require the same level of interpersonal skill. Getting a professional diagnosis may help you to properly evaluate what type of work would be appropriate (or at least manageable with accommodations) for you. I think this is guidance that you need if you want to change your track record and find employment where you can be (and feel) successful long term.

      Do not let your husband discourage you from getting the help you need. Even in a marriage, you get to have the final say on matters related to your health. You may need to jointly figure out how to make this happen as quickly as possible (what expenses to cut to pay for it) but he does not get to tell you not to get treatment for a medical issue that is severely impacting your life.

      Good luck.

  102. Amanda*

    Just found out yesterday that our department assistant is resigning and leaving for a great new job. Good for her! Sad for us. The kicker: boss came over to tell us that the budget is tight, so we’re not re-hiring for the position. We’ll have to work out a coverage schedule for front-desk duties amongst ourselves, and divvy up her job duties.

    What do you call going down from bare bones? Sucking the marrow out?

    It is what it is, and it’s not enough to make me think about a new job, but wow, I am tired just thinking about it.

    1. Dan*

      It’s called “time to move on.”

      For the first time in my life, I’m in a position to help people get jobs, as opposed to asking people to help me find jobs. It feels kinda good to be on “the other side.”

    2. Rebecca*

      Agree with Dan. And get ready to get criticized for not handling your job responsibilities correctly because you’re doing your work plus some of someone else’s work. In that situation now.

  103. Anonsie*

    Is it ok to microwave fish in a cafeteria? Since it’s all food smells and etc in there. But then if I bring it back to my desk it’ll still stink it up, right? I’d have to eat in the cafeteria?

    I literally cannot smell fish and I know this is a thing, but I have absolutely no concept of how it works. I also seriously can’t feed myself without having fish for lunch at least sometimes, in the middle of the day I can only really handle light fish or chicken and I can’t eat chicken every single day. I keep eating it cold and it’s sad and terrible.

    1. BRR*

      I’d say if you eat it in the cafeteria it’s ok. Can you smell microwaved brussels sprouts or reheated Indian food? Use that as your guide. Can you ask somebody for a second opinion?

      1. HR Manager*

        Ha! I re-heated Indian food today. :) No complaints. The reason why I love Fridays here is because half the employees are at home.

        1. BRR*

          I made a trader joe’s microwave meal that was Indian and I brought it back to my desk (no place else to eat) and was like oops.

      2. Anonsie*

        I can smell almost nothing– I’ve had surgery on my sinuses before so I can now smell things if I put them right up against my nose (progress!) but generally my sense of smell is little to nonexistant.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Bringing hot fish back to your desk is a no-no– if you must eat it hot, stay in the cafeteria. But I admit the need to microwave everything baffles me, since I love cold leftovers and never heat anything but soup, but I realize I’m not normal. Can you try cold poached salmon? Or mackerel or sardines on a salad? There are tons of delicious fish options that don’t need to be microwaved. If you want to eat at your desk, aim for something you can eat cold.

    4. HR Manager*

      Truth be told, depends on the fish and how it’s prepared. Most people say no because a lot of fish is indeed really fishy when cooked or microwaved If you have something like Gorton’s fish sticks, it is no where near as offensive. There are certain types of white fish that are quite bland (or frozen, farmed or processed) so that there is little odor, but I don’t know how you can tell if you can’t smell fish. Can you bring a trusty friend with a sensitive nose to sniff things out for your the next time you prepare fish so that you can know whether it is microwave safe or not?

      A cheat is if you are an early riser, you can prepare your food in the morning and not stick it in the fridge. It will still be warm by lunch time, so no re-heating required. Before everyone freaks out, this is common in Japan and other cultures. Lunch time bento boxes are not meant to be re-heated. I do this and I am not dead yet.

      1. Anonsie*

        Unfortunately I’m like the farthest thing from an early riser there is. I have a thermal jar for rice, I’ve considered putting the fish in the rice cooker overnight with the rice and then in the thermal jar in the morning so it’s warmish at lunch time but not hot and therefore hopefully not super smelly?

        I miss living somewhere I could pick up a cheap bento on my way to work and not have to prep lunch at all. I could eat all the room temperature fish I wanted!

    1. Sascha*

      That’s interesting. I’ve heard some women say they prefer male bosses because they tend to be less dramatic and emotional, but that may just be because they got some bad bosses who happened to be women, and they are generalizing.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Actually, I don’t find it that surprising. Women are taught to be really critical of each other, and learn from an early age that it can be dangerous to criticize men.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Oddly, I am finding that when men are critical of each other they are a hundred times harsher than women are with each other. No mercy. wow.

    4. Cath in Canada*

      I’ve had good and bad female bosses, and good and bad male bosses, so I have no preference any more!

      The one thing in favour of male bosses: no matter whether they’re good or bad, they won’t try to talk to you while you’re both peeing in adjacent stalls in the ladies’ restroom, which my favourite female boss used to do. So there’s that.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think it’s gross that Gallup surveys on this, just like it would be offensive for them to survey on whether people prefer bosses of one race over the other, as if that’s an acceptable preference to have (unless they’re doing it in the context of pointing out really problematic racism).

      1. Joey*

        Personally I think it’s a good exercise to show that plenty of people still cling to outdated norms. It reinforces that its not just in our heads as I’m sure some people also believe with race. It’s shocking, but there’s definitely some lessons to be learned from the data.

    6. Cat*

      Of course there can – women are raised in the same society as men; we certainly absorb the same messages about women. I think that accounts for most of it.

      I do think there’s one other issue that I hesitate to bring up because I think it can be misinterpreted and which I think is changing a lot and very rapidly however what hell. I think that a lot of women who are now in their 60s (or even 70s) were put through hell getting where they are professionally and given absolutely zero slack in male dominated environments. Women coming up through the ranks today have a very very different experience and I think that can lead to a mismatch between how older women bosses may expect their female subordinates to act and vice versa .

      However, I think bias is most of it.

      1. Anonsie*

        Agreed with all this. I’m surprised people still put out these “women still do/think [x sexist thing], how is this possible??” pieces, as if women are all somehow immune to a lifetime of messages.

  105. Anonyby*

    Isn’t it just lovely when a company advertises a position as “Entry-Level” but the requirements list includes 3 years experience?

    1. CTO*

      Even better, I love when the position requires 3 years’ experience and a Masters’ but pays barely above minimum wage.

      1. Sascha*

        That’s what my department does! :) Pretty normal for higher education though, even if the degree has nothing to do with the actual work. Higher ed managers can definitely be degree snobs.

    2. BRR*

      There’s flexibility when companies do this (although it’s annoying). I think my current position asked for 2-4 years and I had 5 months internship experience and 6 months professional experience.

    4. Audiophile*

      I’ve seen that. I saw it a lot in ’08, when I zero experience except retail. And I’m noticing it now as well. I usually apply anyway, sometimes I get an interview and sometimes I don’t. No big deal. I figure it’s free to apply, since I’m not mailing anything.
      But it is annoying. I’m more annoyed by vague or lack of defined job descriptions.

  106. Jennifer*

    I’m just going to rant. I am tired of being forced to be “first point of contact” about things that I literally KNOW NOTHING ON THIS EARTH about, which I haven’t been trained on, and I don’t know how to fix. I am especially tired of having this happen while every single manager is “at a meeting” or “out” or whatever for hours. I am tired of nobody actually thinking that this is a problem. They won’t train me any more, but every day has horrible unpleasant surprises and I keep wishing for death and I can’t find anything else I qualify for to even apply for.

    That is all.

    1. Joey*

      Sounds sucky. Can you train yourself? Just asking because lots of people wait for training that never comes and its do or die anyway.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I get this all the time, I look after tea pot handles, but people in the office seem to think that extends to all aspects of tea pot use, maintenance, design and manufacture as well as the the use of tea pots at home.

      I find repeating, “I don’t know” “I’m not sure about that” “you need to speak to Bob ” as needed tends to help.

  107. Anx*

    This is a question about science and feminism.

    I’m a woman who studied biology and am studying biotech right now. Do any other women (or men) working in the biology field feel alienated from the rest of the natural sciences? I understand there are differences between all of the sciences and don’t expect it to be treated the same as physics or chemistry, but I do expect it to be considered part of a similar family and get put off by comments that it’s ‘not really science’ or ‘soft science’ or ‘social science.’ Not there is anything lesser about the social sciences, but I think it has more in common with the natural sciences than social sciences.

    I know part of the reason why I bristle is because I believe most of the people making these comments do think less of the soft sciences. So I really shouldn’t care what they say or think, but I do.

    1. Anx*

      Ah, a paragraph was eaten:

      I can’t help notice that I hear these comments directed more towards myself and other women and less toward men in biology.

      Do you think there could be a devaluing of the scientific rigorousness of the field because more women have entered the field?

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Field snobbery is A Thing: http://xkcd.com/435/

        As a fellow biologist (geneticist to be precise) I know exactly what you mean, but I’m not sure whether the link to gender is correlation or causation and, if the latter, which direction the causation goes.

        The vast majority of chemists and physicists I know are actually women, because I’m part of a couple of online and local-IRL “women in science” and science outreach groups* and have tons of friends and other connections within that community. These groups are great for feeling more engaged with other fields! Is there a Cafe Scientifique, a Meetup group, or something similar in your area?

        *Outreach in all fields seems to be skewed towards having lots of women involved. I’ve heard some of the same comments you made abo0ut biology from people who are heavily involved in outreach, too – it’s seen as “a female thing” by “serious scientists”

        1. Anx*

          I understand the arguments against biology as a science if you’re talking philosophically, but these comments never seemed rooted in serious discussions on what is and isn’t science, so I was inclined to think that it was ‘a thing.’

          I totally agree on the outreach. I have seen mostly women organize meetups and outreach programs while men show up and get all of the networking hits, some of those men be the very same ones who dismiss the concept of outreach. Meanwhile it’s responsible for their funding.

      2. AB Normal*

        In this interesting talk, at some point Malcolm Gladwell describes how an entire field of study or work can become devalued as more women join it (as a result of discrimination):

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW888do1awo

        It could be that “soft sciences”, and the biology field, are seen as less prestigious precisely because there’s a larger number of women working on it.

        1. Anx*

          Thanks for the link. As horrible as it sounds, I do feel a little more validated in my suspicions/observations knowing it’s been addressed by the mainstream.

  108. Nicole*

    I have asked a distinguished professional in my industry (who also happens to be a family friend) to read my cover letter for a position in the same industry. I put “Dear Jane Chocolate Teapot”. She told me to put “Dear Ms. Chocolate Teapot.” In this industry it counts to be able to find what the hiring manager’s name is. Which is correct?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’ve seen Alison advise previously not to over think it, even dear hiring manager is fine as the content is more important, but different industries have different standards, so it’s possible that your contact is better placed to advise you, maybe there’s a reason they’re suggesting being more formal

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yeah, even “dear hiring manager” should be fine, but if you’re in the one field in the world where using the name matters (what is it?!), then it should be either “dear Jane” or “dear Ms. Smith.” “Dear Jane Smith” sounds impersonal.

      1. Nicole*

        It’s for a prospect research position. It’s a tiny detail that probably doesn’t matter (can someone invent a medication that keeps people rational during job hunts?) but I feel like being able to look up the name (since the job is to look up information) helps a little especially when the hiring manager has her LinkedIn profile hidden so I had to do some mild digging.

          1. Nicole*

            Now that I typed it out it’s probably not the biggest deal, but my resume is on the weaker side so I need everything I can get to help.

  109. Nervous Applier*

    What is the best way to handle this situation? I am interested in a job that requires an application form in addition to a resume and cover letter. This form asks for your three most recent employers, reason for leaving, supervisor’s name, phone number, and “May we contact this employer?” I was fired from two of the three employers that I would have to list. I don’t know how much this form “counts” in the screening process, but I am really uneasy about filling it out and have avoided applying for other jobs with similar forms because I don’t know what to say. Is saying no to contacting the employer a huge red flag? Is “let go” an appropriate euphemism for fired in this instance? I have been straightforward about being fired when asked in interviews, but somehow putting it on a form (twice) makes me feel like my entire application will be discarded immediately.

    Tl;dr — I was fired from two jobs. How do I address that in “reason for leaving” on an application form?

    1. BRR*

      I would put the same answers you would give in an interview. Even if you just submitted a resume the person doing the initial screening would likely question gaps (I’m assuming you have gaps). Saying no to contacting the employer isn’t a huge red flag, it’s more the two firing which will cause questions. Saying you were let go is fine (it’s what I said), just don’t say you were laid off. If you would like to run phrasing for the firings by us feel free to post them.

    2. Adonday Veeah*

      If you are selected to interview, you will be asked about your reluctance to have your previous employers contacted. And, if you make it far enough in the process, they will be contacted anyway, with or without your permission. So do your disaster management up front, by having your story ready and managing expectations.

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Why were you fired? Is it something you can try to address upfront?

      I want to be encouraging here, but i’m worried that you’re going to spend a lot of time on applications without getting interviews if you are in the position of waiting for the interview to address it.

  110. aliascelli*

    This summer my job went from fun-but-busy to overwhelmed-and-miserable (high turnover, among other things). I’m working with my management to try and make things better…it’s very slow progress. At the same time I applied for a job in another branch of the company which I was a little too hopeful about. I didn’t get it, and now I really need to see if this current job can be saved.

    I’m trying to be positive: opportunity! It’s my own personal business process improvement project! but mostly I just want to “forget” my laptop at work, go home, and watch terrible terrible TV for a year rather than try and solve this problem while being overwhelmed by it at the same time.

    :(

  111. Can't be Named*

    I’ve written before about my struggles as a fairly new supervisor. I have one employee in particular who has me at the end of my rope. She’s negative, will give you (including my boss and I) the silent treatment if she’s upset with you, makes careless mistakes, and ignores the chain of command. My boss and I have had multiple conversations with her and have brought HR in as well(she has a ADA covered disability but ignores the accommodations we set up for her). I was finally given the green light to begin formal disciplinary measures about a month ago. I’m honestly at the point where I don’t want to retain her. But now today I’m being told I can’t write her up again (for doing the same careless thing that got her the last two write ups) because she complained to HR that it wasn’t fair. How do I get through to her that I can’t keep untangling her messes on a daily basis? I need to be able to act the next time something happens. I can’t have someone taking a spot on a highly desired shift and then creating just as much work as she completes. Am I just completely screwed?

    1. BRR*

      Is HR just scared of being sued? This is absolutely ridiculous. I would just flat out ask HR, what do I need to do to fire her because she is not doing what is required of someone in the position? Say you have things that are not getting done. I think someone recommended once (possibly to you last time), then ask them to create a new position so you can get someone in to actually do the job.

    2. HR Manager*

      I don’t understand the “you can’t write her up for the same mistake if it’s being repeated” — or did I misinterpret that? You can’t beat her up for the same mistake she hasn’t repeated, but if she is told to correct this and keeps doing it wrong, then it certainly should be addressed. Is she on a plan? Has HR been able to give you a projected path to resolution (best case scenario and worst case scenario)? By the way, having an ADA accommodation doesn’t mean she can’t be PIP’ed. I had to put someone on plan once who had an ADA covered condition — as long as the employee doesn’t have documentation that the condition/disability is linked to the performance issue, that disability cannot be used for protection in this way.

    3. CTO*

      I don’t think “getting through to her” is your problem… your problem is HR who won’t allow you to discipline an employee who has shown, many times, that you just aren’t going to get through to her.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        Yes. You don’t have to “get through to her”. You just have to clearly say what you need her to do, provide any reasonable support, resources or accommodates (so you’re not setting her up to fail) and then see if she improves. If she doesn’t, then you move forward with the next disciplinary step. It is not your job to convince or cajole her into doing what you are asking. It’s not even your job to make sure she understands, or to figure out the precise path that she needs to take to improve. I mean, you can do all those things if the employee is working with you to find a solution, but otherwise, you’re putting the responsibility for her improvement on you instead of on her. I’d go back to HR and ask them to help you understand the path when someone isn’t complying with a PIP.

    4. Adonday Veeah*

      As an HR professional, I’m telling you that your HR department sucks. And they shouldn’t get the final say in this. Unless they can point you to a very valid and specific reason, you should be able to write up your staff and they should support you, even if they disagree and even if they are scared. Yours sounds like they don’t know what they’re doing. Can you go above/around them?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If she is refusing to speak when spoken to, then I do not see how she can hold down any job ever.

      Does she have a note from a doctor clarifying that she is not always able to speak when spoken to?
      I really doubt she does.

      I would say that she is a safety risk. What if there is a fire and she decides that is a good time not to speak to people, so she does not alert them to a life threatening situation.

      I have worked with folks that just decided to stop speaking to one or more people in the group. Hmmm. Gives me an idea. Maybe you can suggest EAP to find out why she cannot talk to everyone she works with on a daily basis, since that is part of the job and all….

  112. DG*

    I have a background working in museums and for educational non-profits but I have been out of the field for 3 years. I worked as an administrative assistant for a year at a corporate enterprise but it was a temp position and have again been out of work for 5 months now. I live in an area that just does not have many museum or educational non-profits around. The few that are local I have already worked at, interviewed at, or are rarely, if ever, hiring.

    I know I need to change fields but I am not getting any interviews. I’ve followed the advice on this blog and I personalize every cover letter to each position and typically try to make a case as to how my skills from my previous work translate to the job I am applying for. I show my personality and try to explain how I could do the job well.

    I think part of the problem is that I just haven’t been that successful. I haven’t ever had a permanent job. They have all been temporary or part time. So I look like a job hopper. Plus my roles have not had anything that can really be measured. So when I try to fill my resume up with accomplishments, there really aren’t any, mostly just responsibilities that I fulfilled. I did well in those responsibilities and I am a hard worker, but I can’t say “this is what I have done that another worker couldn’t have done” or anything along those lines, except in very few examples. I haven’t had the time to really flourish in a job since they have all been short term roles.

    The one job I had where I really made some big changes and put my individual stamp on things was at a museum that had extremely outdated materials and educational programs. I revamped a lot of them, giving them exciting new names and more updated, modern content that everyone was excited about and they loved it. But since I left they have reverted back to their old programs and materials and I am not sure how that really looks for me. I *think* its because I had the skills to do it, especially the tech stuff, and they have very limited resources and couldn’t continue after I was gone, but I really can’t be sure. To be quite honest, I did not leave this job on great terms. I have my opinion of what happened and so does the executive director…long story. I’ll go into detail if anyone wants me to but I am not sure it’s necessary. I do still have a reference from one of the members of the board of directors so not all is lost there.

    Also, my museum/education references are old and outdated. I have two new references from my admin job but they can’t speak to any skills other than general admin duties. Though, they can say that I am a good worker.

    The only jobs I am getting contacted for are insurance sales jobs, and I’ve read enough posts on here to know that they aren’t all they are chalked up to be. Plus, generating leads is just not something I would be good at.

    So, any advice on how I can make myself stand out among other candidates, especially those who will have more specific experience than I do for the jobs I am applying to? How do I write a successful cover letter and resume when I can’t provide measurable or individual accomplishments? Mostly I talk about my personality traits, how I’m a hard worker, and how my skills translate, but that doesn’t seem to be working. Is that a poor tactic?

    I know people will suggest volunteer work but that is not really an option for me. I have a 2 1/2 year old and live in an extremely high cost of living area and I simply can’t afford daycare or a sitter if I’m not working. I don’t have a lot of friends or family in the area to rely on for babysitting either. I have been taking some classes and certifications though to round out my skills when I do have the time or money.

    Any advice would be extremely helpful.

    1. BRR*

      What types of positions are you applying for? What were your positions at the museums and educational non-profits? Why do you say your references are old and outdated? This is just my opinion (others correct me if I’m wrong), but references don’t have an expiration date.

      1. DG*

        Curriculim developer, tour guide, education department head, etc. type roles at museum. At non-profits they have been admin type roles or computer/software training. I’m trying to move into training/instructional design but don’t have the specific experience for it, though I have facilitated countless learning experiences. Still, I believe my skills are transferable.

        I guess when I say my references are outdated its because they are 3 or more years old. I feel like that doesn’t look great for me when I apply for jobs. I can still use them, but they are not familiar with current work.

      2. DG*

        Oh, I’ve been applying to any type of curriculum developing role I can find, or activity coordinator, etc. They are few and far between. Also applying to trainer or instructional designer positions but most want several years of experience and usually they are very technical. I am pretty good with technology, but a lot of them around here are a lot more technical than being familiar with computers. I’ve found some for call centers and other things, but again in this area most things are not in my expertise. I do make a case for being a fast learner though and that I have had to learn countless subjects as a museum educator.

        I have also been applying for admin jobs. I have the skills for this and my most recent experience is an admin position. I feel like I am up against a hundred executive admins applying for the same jobs though. Other than my last job, none of my positions were as an admin specifically, though I did admin work or was the admin for my department in almost every job. I try to state that but absent of matching job titles, I feel like it looks like I am exaggerating since that wasn’t my specific position.

        1. BRR*

          Hmm, I’m not sure exactly how to help. Alison has articles for if you’re not getting interviews or if you’re getting interviews but not getting offers. Or is your challenge finding jobs?

          1. DG*

            I have had only a handful of interviews over the past few years but have not gotten the job and I am not finding many job openings that I am more than only a little qualified for. I am just not sure what to do. I appreciate you taking the time to respond though.

            1. BRR*

              Try googling I need a library job. It’s a website with library jobs but it also has jobs in other fields that librarians would apply for. I think the jobs that are posted there might present some options for someone with your background.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      i bet you can find a way to list accomplishments if you think about if differently. Trying to think of things that you did that no other worker did is just one way. Another way would be to list what you are most proud of. Another would be to list things that you mastered or learned. Or things that you learned well enough to teach others. Or anything you did that was new or different for the company. It sounds like you did some really creative things with the exhibits that you could talk about. Especially if you are looking at slightly different fields, the interviewer won’t know if your accomplishments were truly unique among co-workers – so don’t worry about that. Also, some people think that accomplishments have to be quantifiable. That’s nice if it makes sense, but if it doesn’t then don’t worry about it.

      1. DG*

        This is very helpful. Thank you. I was thinking that I had to list specific accomplishments in terms of what I improved in the organizations I worked in. It helps to think of it more like what I am proud of or what I learned. I have done that in my cover letter in some ways.

        For example, museum programs focus a lot on interactive learning and doing things hands-on and also on relating subject matter to something that is already understandable to the learner. So I have learned to constantly think about how I can teach things in ways that people can connect to knowledge they already have and then finding an activity they can do to solidify that understanding.

        I try to explain this concept in my cover letter but I struggle with how to put those kind of accomplishments on my resume.

    3. DG*

      I’m also kind of wondering if using examples of children’s programming makes sense when I am applying to jobs that focus on adult learning. I personally believe the concepts are very similar and have some experience creating programs for adults. The bulk of my experience is in creating activities and curriculum for children and that is where I have been most creative.

      What would you think if you were hiring someone to create programs for adults and all their examples were for children’s programs?

      I would love to continue to work with kids but in the area I am currently living there are not a lot of programs for kids outside of daycare or school and they all require teacher certification, which I don’t have.

  113. Rye-Ann*

    I just did something unprofessional and now I’m kicking myself for it. I do know not to do it again, and practically speaking there probably won’t be any consequences (for me or anyone else), but I’m just going “Ugh, why did I do that?” x.x

    1. Adonday Veeah*

      It’s Friday evening. Go have your equivalent of a glass of wine. Give yourself till bedtime to wallow. Don’t let it ruin your weekend. It will be all better by Monday.

    2. CoffeeLover*

      And if it makes you feel any better, every single person on this planet has been there. Even the super accomplished people we look up to…

    3. Mister Pickle*

      You made a mistake. You kicked yourself a bit, and you have learned from the mistake, and you won’t repeat it?

      You’re done. Move on and be grateful you’re not one of those sad people who can’t learn from their mistakes.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Some day someone will come to you and say something very similar to what you have here. Then it will be your turn to explain to them how you handled it and how you rose above it, as you try to help them.

      Keep picturing that day in your head.

  114. LV Ladybug*

    Why can’t people show common courtesy if they aren’t going to show up for an interview by calling? I hate no-shows. At least call me and say you changed your mind or have already taken another postion. I would say thank you for letting me know and wish them luck. At least I could get some work done instead of waiting for them to show. Just had to vent. So aggravating.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, that sucks. Every time we had interviews scheduled at OldJob with every manager I handled that for, someone always bailed without a call or email. That was an automatic write-off.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Argh. This makes me totally nuts. I had a candidate recently (that someone had talked me into interviewing – I had serious concerns). We had a 90 minute phone interview (because she was traveling) that went really well. Then she didn’t show up for the interview. I e-mailed her in case the mistake had been mine, and she said “well, I just decided this is not for me”. It was a high-level position and I had set aside two hours and prepared customized simulation activities based on her specific skills and work samples. And coordinated with three other people to be on the panel. This also made me question the judgment of the person who recommended her so highly. Seriously? She just made her mind up an hour after the interview was supposed to have started?

  115. Rila*

    I got a new full time job a few months ago (yay!) but am not happy at work (boo!). To make ends meet, I kept the part time job I had while searching for the full time one. The part time job is gave me more responsibilities and small promotion and I want to update my LinkedIn and resume to reflect this, but I don’t want my full time job to know I’m still working part time on the side. Do companies continuously check employee’s LinkedIn accounts or am I being paranoid?

    1. Swarley*

      I don’t think most companies will check an employee’s LinkIn profile other than while recruiting them. I do think it’s more likely that a new colleague will ask to connect and then they might notice. Whether or not they’ll say anything to you or someone else is anyone’s guess. I’d check your full time employer’s operating policies and see what it says about having additional employment. If there’s nothing there and it’s not impacting your performance, I wouldn’t worry.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      hmmm…Do linkedin changes show up on google alerts? I have no idea – but I have google alerts set up for all my employees and board members – mostly so that I can track our media hits and board members’ professional accomplishments, but also in case of anything else I need to be aware of. I once found out about a VERY serious crime that a board member had committed this way.

      1. Callie30*

        I believe Google Alerts are strictly for news stories, which wouldn’t apply to Linked In announcements/updates. However, your ‘work anniversaries’ etc. would show up on the linked in timeline at log-in and in Linked In email updates. So, there is a possibility of activity like that being available at those times without actually visiting your profile.

        I think it also depends on the type of company you work at and whether the work you’re doing ‘competes’ with your full-time job. If not, they probably wouldn’t care if you had a part-time job or not. In fact, in this economy it might be more common than realized to have a second job. And as long as your work quality isn’t being affected and it’s now dis-allowed by your contract, quite frankly – it shouldn’t be construed as an issue.

    3. Graciosa*

      I don’t do this at any point during or after the hiring process, so I wouldn’t worry about this from the perspective of an employer or manager. However, I would think about whether you have a lot of new co-workers who may start connecting with you as you become better known in your new role. If that happens, it is likely to become known at least among your colleagues.

    4. Trixie*

      I think there’s a way to update your profile without broadcasting to your current contacts, which is a start. So many people have part-time jobs, I think it shows initiative and commitment.

  116. Relosa*

    Just got the “welcome our new so-and-so” email broadcast for a position I was second choice at, at my part-time job that would have been full-time if I’d gotten the promotion.

    :(

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I’m so sorry. If it matters, I think that it’s really brave to put yourself out there at your current job when you know that other people will be aware that you wanted the position.

  117. Callie30*

    Have an issue and question for the AAM community – we recently let a contractor go. This contractor had downloaded very expensive software owned and paid for by the organization – as to complete the work. The process of letting this person go was not an easy transition. However, we do need to reset and deactivate the current product licenses and obtain new ones for the new staff – it isn’t in the budget to simply buy new software. We can do this with or without this contractor, but I fear that deactivating without telling this person could have negative implications that we don’t have the time to deal with. But telling the contractor would result in efforts and arguments we don’t have the time to deal with either.

    Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I’ve been through something kind of similar. You just have to de-activate the license. If you think that the person might try to get in your way, then you just do it. It’s not their property, and it’s probably occurred to them that they might lose access at some point. Perhaps you could do it, and then AT THAT INSTANT, send them an e-mail making them aware.

      1. Callie30*

        Thanks, Ashley. That’s what we will be doing. I’ve already started the process of deactivating.

          1. Callie30*

            Thanks – Unfortunately, I think this person is like that. This said person bragged about how much they ‘swindled’ out of their last job during non-work interactions. That was a red flag then and there. I am trying to avoid confrontations that we can’t afford time-wise and that are moot and a waste of everyone’s time!

    2. Graciosa*

      I totally support shutting the software down, but if your purpose is to prevent a confrontation, this alone may not be successful. I would urge you to have a response prepared if this individual tries to argue with you later. You can’t prevent the contractor from making the attempt, but you can control your reaction and limit the amount of time it consumes.

      Plan your response and don’t deviate from it other than to add, “As I told you previously” or something similar on a second attempt. After that you need to diligently shut down any additional efforts and refuse to discuss it further.

      Good luck.

    3. Mister Pickle*

      So the contractor is gone, but you fear that deactivating without telling them you’re going to deactivate would cause some kind of problem?

      If that is truly an issue, why not just shoot him an email that says “FYI, we are deactivating the software license” and then do the deactivation. Don’t take his calls and don’t respond to his emails.

      On the other hand – if you were to simply deactivate the software license, would he even notice? There’s quite a bit of expensive software that I’d never touch unless I was being paid for the trouble.

    4. Nanc*

      Deactivate. When you’re laying off/firing someone it’s security best practice to shut down their access, reset passwords, deactivate software remotely, remotely lock any company issued cell phone, laptops, etc., right away. As in while they’re in HR or wherever getting the message, the security best practices are being carried out. It sucks, it’s embarrassing but at the end of the day, that’s what keeps your company data safe.

  118. Gem*

    So, I finish this job on 28th (a Tuesday, due to holiday being left over). I have no work to do. As in, I asked what I could do and was told to take a nap. I went to the operations manager with a suggestion of what I could do, he said no, as the project hadn’t been finalized enough for me to document it…then did that documentation himself not 30 minutes later. *headdesk* I really don’t do well with nothing to do when at work. I’ve already read all the archives here!

    Would it be awful of me to ask/suggest I take the Monday and the Tuesday as unpaid leave as they are currently paying me to do nothing at all (and its driving my crazy – I have some personal projects, that I could do, but not easily at work, hence me wondering if I could get that week off in full). I have no idea how that would come off, but I know the operations manager would back me up in the ‘nothing to do’ issue.

    1. CoffeeLover*

      I don’t see why not. Seems perfectly reasonable, and they know you have nothing to do, so it’s not like you’re ousting yourself as a freeloader. Maybe just highlight that you would stay if there was work. So something like:
      “Bob, I haven’t had much to do these last couple of days, so unless there’s other work you’d like me to do (which I’d be more than happy to do), is it alright with you if I make Friday my last day?”

  119. Snork Maiden*

    I’ve gone back through the AAM archives and re-read Alison’s advice on dealing with defensive management. Do you guys have any additional tips? I am trying to implement the whole make-your-boss-feel-safe-everything-shiny-happy approach but as a person who is frankly, quite tired of years of this, I am finding it hard to quash my didactic, always-right side.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      For me, it’s about letting go, and setting boundaries in my mind. I have to convince myself that what is bothering me doesn’t matter, that I can’t do anything about it, and that it’s just who that person is – and, more importantly, that I don’t have to let it be relevant to me. After years of it, it sounds like it might not change anytime soon.

      Also, make sure you’ve got good, exciting, fun stuff going on in other parts of your life that help you keep this person in perspective. When work is consuming your whole life (time-wise or mentally), it’s really hard to hold your boundaries on not taking this personally.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        Also, if it’s really stressing you out, 2 or 3 solution-focused sessions with a therapist might help you be less bothered by it.

        1. Snork Maiden*

          Thank you for your kind advice on perspective and boundaries.

          I’d love some therapy but it’s expensive and a long wait. I think therapy, along with things like massage and acupuncture and physical trainers, should be covered by all healthcare plans as preventative maintenance. It’s a lot cheaper than trying to put yourself back together afterwards.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, this stuff is tiring. If they have worked with you for years you would think they would have learned to let their guard down by now and trust a little more.

      The only thing I can suggest is look for patterns and prepare to respond to those expected responses. If you have situation A going on and you expect defensive response C, then prepare your reply to that before you even open the conversation about situation A.

      Sadly, the other thing I have done is chose my battles. This means some of the smaller stuff falls through the cracks. But I don’t have the time and energy to have a long, drawn out discussion on which brand of paper to buy. So I skip the topic.

      You do realize that you are slipping closer and closer to that exit door, right? There’s really not a lot your going to be able to do for people who cannot at least learn to trust others.

      1. Snork Maiden*

        Yes, I am starting to gather up exit information (browsing job ads, currently halfway through Alison’s e-book). What is odd is that in my case the situation with management is worsening – possibly because as I am getting older and reading sites like these, I have become less, how can I say it, doormat-y. I have realized I want a bit more out of my working life. I am not outright rebelling, but it appears even a slackening of the bow-and-scrape means a face-heel turn from above.

        What is important is that I manage to stay on the good side, as circumstances mean that they would be the only management reference I could provide. (It is a small organization.) The area where I work *demands* references up front for job applications, which I am trying to sidestep, and I’m terrified I’ll be trapped.

        Right. Gritting teeth and back into the fray. If Frodo can get the Ring to Mordor, I can get through this. Picking my battles!

  120. Grey*

    When I was recently laid off from a job, my supervisor told me that I could use her for a job reference. Is it safe to assume she’ll be a good reference?

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I would think so. I doubt she would offer if she wasn’t going to give you a good reference. There have been employees who weren’t that great and I would never offer to be a reference for someone I didn’t feel would go a good job, or had done a good job for me in the past.

      If you’re in doubt you could ask her what she would say about you.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        I agree. I would never offer to give a reference if it wasn’t going to be a good one. It doesn’t hurt to ask, though. however, don’t ask “will you give me a good reference?”. Instead, wait until you are applying for something, and call her to ask if she can give you a good reference for your skills in x, y and z specific to the prospective job.

  121. a.n.o.n.*

    Well, not only did I get a call from that other company for the fourth time in a year (see up thread), but I got a call for an app I submitted!! I feel wanted finally! I realize others have had a much tougher time with the job search, but this is my first real job hunt in almost 20 years and it’s really discouraging to not get a single call after submitting a ton of applications. But I’m happy to report I have a phone interview on Monday and then I’ll be meeting the SVP from the other company for coffee after work on Wednesday.

    Any advice on phone interviews? I never did one before. I’ll have to go out to my car since there’s no privacy in my location (cube farm, conference rooms are filled for training). I usually take a late lunch and I get an hour, so I’ll make up some excuse to take an even later lunch.

    1. Blue_eyes*

      Congrats! For the phone interview, use Allison’s interview prepping advice from the blog and her book. The advantage to phone interviews is that you can have all the notes you want right in front of you and consult them as much as you need to. You can also make exaggerated gestures (like cringing when you give an answer you didn’t like, or fist pumping when you nail it) because they can’t see you! Be extra aware of your tone of voice though, since the interviewer can’t use your facial expressions and body language to understand your intent. Good luck!

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        Yes to being very aware of your tone. the other thing I find is that some people have it in their head that a phone interview will be brief, so they give reeeeally short answers – and it’s really hard to talk to them – meaning that I don’t learn enough to move them ahead in the process. Make sure that you are expanding on your answers just the same way that you would in person (don’t ramble though, and be conscious of any signs that the person is trying to interrupt you). Make sure you’re conveying a lot of energy, since your facial expressions are missing. Also, if you can, try to make sure your phone won’t be beeping in your ear with another incoming call since you don’t want to miss what the interviewer is saying.

        Also be sure to use your words – for example, if something the interviewer tells you about the job excites you – you have to say so – since they can’t tell you are smiling! It sounds obvious, but help them read your responses to them.

    2. Stephanie*

      Test out your phone/location for call clarity. Cell service isn’t the best in my area and I can sound muffled, so try calling a friend from where you’ll interview and ask him about the call quality.

    3. Trixie*

      Keep a copy of your resume/cover letter handy so you can instantly refer to what you submitted. And maybe test the cell phone acoustics in your car. Good plan on your car but is there a conference room you could borrow, or friend’s office?

      1. a.n.o.n.*

        Unfortunately the conference rooms are being used for training right now. Besides, my boss would ask what I’m doing and he knows how I’m feeling about work so would put two and two together instantly.

        Thanks for the suggestion on having my resume handy. I didn’t think of that and am glad I asked for suggestions.

    4. a.n.o.n.*

      Thanks for the suggestions! I didn’t think of any of this. And I do have the ebook. I’ll have to take a read this weekend.

  122. Hcat*

    Whoa! +1000 posts…..oh, well here goes, maybe someone will see this.
    I’ve been thinking about setting up a linked in acct, I been hesitating for years. I just didn’t want my name to appear in a google search, BUT, I think it’s time to set up a profile if I want to expand my network of contacts in my industry. My question is, can I set my profile so that it doesn’t show up as “someone you might know” like facebook, You know, if I went to university and I have no desire to connect with some of those people, I don’t want them trying to establish connections, same with old workplace, I’m done with them, and again have absolutely NO desire to make connections with old colleagues whom I dislike. Does my profile show up on someone’s page as someone who they may want to make a connection with? or can I set it not to. Does this make any sense at all? LOL

    1. BRR*

      I just looked and I was unable to find an option to turn off showing up as a recommendation. I would just decline to connect with people if you don’t want to.

    2. Graciosa*

      That question requires a little more technical knowledge than I have, so my answer may be wrong, but I assume you can’t eliminate it completely from appearing in searches. You can have a minimal profile and set it so that you have to be a linked in member to see it.

      What I don’t understand is why you would do this? This is contrary to the entire purpose of linked in. People you know will try to connect with you, and you are likely to appear on their list of suggested connections because the whole system is designed to encourage this. You can certainly reject their requests to connect, but I don’t think you can stop the initial attempt.

      The only other thing I can suggest is leaving off information you don’t want used in establishing connections (like not listing your alma mater or some previous employers). It won’t eliminate it, but might help minimize the suggested connections.

      But again, it sounds to me like you want something other than linked in, so I suggest you rethink your decision to join if you are this concerned with avoiding your former contacts.

      Good luck.

    3. Trixie*

      I have profile on Anonymous which works for me right now. I can connect with others I seek out but don’t receive requests otherwise. If I did receive a request I didn’t want accept, I just ignore or delete.

  123. JAL*

    I am chronically ill (I have herniated disc/degenerative disc disease, which causes anxiety and pain and insomnia every night). I work for a company with no sick leave or benefits. If I take a day off I need to make up the hours, or else I lose my job. Would you think it would be wise to look for jobs?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Yes. Speaking as person who has been through a few things myself, I believe that not being supported by your employer only exasperates the symptoms and the discomfort I felt. Because of all the worry regarding work on top of the existing physical issues. Move on.
      It’s going to be tough, but once you get in a better work environment that will be more healthy for you.

    5. Nina*

      Absolutely. It doesn’t sound like you have any real security there in case of an emergency. I would start looking now.

  124. Gingerbread*

    I’m late to the game, but here goes. Do any of you work as a project manager? What field do you work in and what are some of your duties? I recently got a job as a project manager for a furniture manufacturing company but I can’t help but feel like my duties don’t match up with my title.

    1. Graciosa*

      Project Manager is one of the titles that can vary widely in actual job duties. Sometimes this is essentially an executive role responsible for the coordination and execution of significant work across multiple functions in a large company. Other times it includes work that might be performed elsewhere by administrative assistants (for example, booking hotel rooms for a conference) as the PM is expected to do whatever is necessary to get the job done.

      It sounds like you’re looking for justification for having a conversation with your boss about your job duties – but why don’t you just have the conversation? Mismatched expectations of the role is pretty high on the list of items you need to discuss with your manager. Even if the general standard in the industry differs from what your boss has in mind, you will still need to find out what your boss expects and make a decision about whether or not that is something you’re willing to do.

      Good luck.

    2. Nina*

      I agree w/Graciosa; Project Manager positions can vary from place to place. I temped as a PM at a tiling company. Basically, I did a lot of clerical work, called tiling suppliers and did closeouts, which is a compilation of receipts and the inventory done on a job. Pity it was only a temp gig, because I liked it a lot. I would talk to your manager to get the specifics for your position.

  125. Gingerbread*

    I have another question. I’m sure it’s been asked here before, but how long did it take you to get comfortable at your new job? I just finished up my third week and haven’t learned how to do 90% of the duties listed on my job description/offer. I asked my manager who I should ask for help or for work to do, but he said he would be handing me projects as they come, but even when they do, they’re minor and I complete them quickly. I hate being bored at work and feel like I could be doing so much more.

    1. JMW*

      Third week is early days. I don’t know about your job, but a lot of times a role within an organization is unique. This means no one else does your job and can train you, and it is left to you to train yourself or wait for bits of training as people have time. Be proactive about learning that 90%. Ask your boss what you should be focusing on learning next. Or choose something you want to start learning and ask for guidance as to where you should start or who you should ask for guidance. At 3 months you should feel a little more settled, by six months you should feel some ownership of the role.

      If it is a job where other people are doing the same thing, or the role functions very similarly from organization to organization (a professional role like accountant, architect, teacher, etc.), that transition is much faster.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I agree, 6 months to get stabilized. And a year to learn the cycle the business goes through. I think of it as seasons and each season of the business year brings about new tasks.

  126. 007*

    How many questions are too many questions to ask during a phone interview?
    I am the candidate, and the interviewer (the owner of the company, actually) didn’t sound exasperated when I did ask questions, but rather like he preferred to talk of his success, and by talking about how great his products are…which they are, that’s a big part of why I want to sell them. (Commissioned sales)
    I was asking more in-depth questions ( I have 15+ years sales specific industry experience), he kind of blew them off.
    Anybody ever get this type of interview?

    1. Graciosa*

      There isn’t a set number of questions that are appropriate, although you need to make sure you respect the time scheduled for the interview and don’t dominate the discussion with your questions. However, it sounds like your real concern is how your interviewer answered them.

      That is incredibly important information, and you should take it very seriously. You now know that the owner lacks the level of sophistication / maturity of thought you expected (or simply doesn’t care about it as long as the numbers come in every quarter). That may be okay if this person is not your manager and has other people designated and qualified to do this work (the owner doesn’t have to be the CFO, just ensure there is a good one doing the job). If not, that’s a big red flag that will impact your working life at this company.

      You need to ask enough questions at some point in the process (whether phone interview or later) to find out enough about the environment and role to decide if you want to work there. It sounds like you asked questions that gave you key information – you just have to decide how to act on it.

  127. 007*

    Another question…I’ve been with my current company for 2.5 years in sales and took a new position in procurement 9 months ago, quite a different skill set from hard-core sales.
    Although I’ve learned some good BOH procedures, it’s a pretty repetitive role, not very challenging, pretty toxic environment with petty and snotty attitudes, and on top of it all I’m am very much the outsider, can I complain more?…so it’s time to move on.
    How do I explain my desire to get back into sales, a very ego driven role when it may appear I’ve failed at sales – which I didn’t! It was an intentional move that I risked and thought would be a step up, but with my current employer just doesn’t pan out.

    1. JMW*

      You could present it as having taken an opportunity to learn other aspects of the business, but that your heart is in sales. Then discuss what you missed about sales. When a company wants to hire a salesperson, they want someone who loves it. This could actually work in your favor.

  129. Wkplc Edu Assistance Q*

    I am currently participating in my company’s education assistance program to get my graduate degree. I participated in the education assistance program when I became eligible. I told my managers that I plan to get my degree and they approved my courses. The thing is, I have been taking classes in the university before I join the education assistance program. I wasn’t eligible to participate in my program at that time, so I pay for the courses myself. My managers did not know about my having taken some courses already, and there is no regulation stating that my workplace needs to fund a certain amount of an employee’s education. I think a conversation about my degree progress would lead to talking about whether it was my first time in the university or why I only have this few classes to take. I was thinking of revealing my past school attendance only when these conversations came up. Would they be “very surprise” that I have been taking classes before?

    1. Graciosa*

      Why would you expect your management to think of your independent pursuit of education as a bad thing? I would think they would be impressed. Or possibly pleased that they will get an employee with a graduate degree less expensively than would otherwise have been the case.

      Unless there is something else going on here that you didn’t mention (were you funding your education with a life of crime?) this is really not something to worry about.

      Good luck.

  130. Emily*

    I am having issues with a manager from another department not being able to concentrate. Her office is about 5 feet from the break area with the fridges, fountains, etc and the main walkway. She is apparently very easily distracted from her work yet insists on leaving her door open because she is popping out to scold people for being too loud a LOT. I witnessed it at least once a day every day last week and in 90% of those situations the people were not being loud or obnoxious. Yesterday I was having a coughing fit and desperately trying to refill my water bottle when she popped out and said “Can you take that elsewhere? I am on the phone” She went back in without waiting for a reply and left the door open. Later in the day I was talking to a coworker at the fountain again in a normal tone of voice and she again came out and said she was really distracted by our personal conversations in the break area. She does not work in my department and is at least 2-3 managers higher than me. Would it be bad for me to ask her to close her door next time? Should I just go to her boss? Ask my boss to talk to her boss? It puts me a bad mood to be scolded for short, normal tone of voice conversations and especially if I am coughing and cannot control it and honestly I just want to tell her to close her damn door if she is so easily distracted, but I know that is NOT the professional way to handle it. Advice?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This could be me.
      The room I work in is off a hallway that is well used. People are coming and going, constantly.
      There is something very odd about the acoustics of this room. Conversations are incredibly easy to hear, even whispers seem to get amplified. We can hear every single thing that is said.

      I will be honest- if I had not seen this myself I would have no empathy for the boss in your story and I would totally agree with you. However, it could be that due to strange acoustics that noises seem very loud in her office. We finally got drapes up in the room and it helps a little, but not that much.

      So, unfortunately, my advice is to steer clear of her doorway.If you have to get water, remain quiet. Let your boss know that this is becoming a major problem during the day. Tell him what you are seeing. Ask if anything can be done to ease the situation as people are getting scolded daily. And lastly, the air at my work tends to be dry, I keep cough drops in my desk in case I get hit with a coughing jag.

      Enough people get scolded it is not going to be just you complaining. You might find that time is on your side here.

  131. Jennifer*

    My boss sent me to a class on SAP Crystal database programming so I could better communicate with our report writers. I can now make basic reports and use the software pretty well, but I don’t have any real experience using it. How do I reflect this on a resume?

    1. Trixie*

      I’d go with “Familiar with SAP Crystal software” or maybe “Submitted weekly SAP Crystal reports for review.”

  132. Labbie*

    I am a new manager for an even newer team. We have an established team doing the same work in another location. That location receives extreme weather during a portion of the year and, as a result, their employees are set up to work from home in case it is not safe to come to the office. We do not get extreme weather (for example: the most “extreme” weather we’ve had in recent years was the 1 ft of snow that fell overnight last winter).

    I have a worker that keeps pushing for work from home access in case it snows – at all. She insists she won’t “risk her life” to drive in the snow and can’t get out of her driveway if it even snows an inch. To me, this is completely unreasonable. We have no large hills she would have to traverse. She wouldn’t have to travel more than a few miles to work and she works hours that wouldn’t have her driving in the dark.

    I have told her, in specific terms, that I need her to be committed to coming to work, even if it snows. We are a very small team and one person out without notice has a large impact on every one else. She has stated on more than one occasion that she will just call out, even after I’ve told her this is not appropriate.

    I’m at a loss of what to do and I’m concerned about how this will impact the team this winter. Bear in mind, I plan to have work from home privileges for her and the rest of our team but these people are very, very new (less than 2 full months).

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      She’s telling you clearly that she’s not willing to meet the requirements of the job. If it is indeed a requirement, it sounds like you might need to let her go. Is this a hard-to-fill job where you think you’ll have trouble replacing her with someone strong and willing to show up at work when there are snow flurries?

      1. Ludo*

        It isn’t usually a “hard to fill” position. It is customer service in a high demand field, it pays above market wages and the company has a great culture. However, the market in this area means that it took us 3 months to fill this position last time we hired. People hear the company name and think “high level education required” which is not the case, but it is an issue we’ve struggled to overcome.

        And it is definitely a requirement that our workers come to work in snow. Of course if it is truly unsafe, I would never ask them to drive but that isn’t what was being discussed. Our entire customer service team comprises of 10 people. When one is unexpectedly not there everyone else is left to pick up the work and that means everyone’s work suffers. We are staffed to exactly the “right” level where if everyone is there the workload is busy but comfortable, if a day off is planned, we can adjust schedules to make it still manageable but if it is unplanned we end up in a situation where the workload is no longer manageable and the team feels overwhelmed.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It sounds like you need to tell her that the requirement isn’t flexible, and explain that if she can’t meet it, you’ll need to replace her.

    2. Ludo*

      That’s funny, I just noticed that the autofill put in my screen name for another site (Labbie) when I posted this

    3. C Average*

      If you have a decent relationship with her and feel so inclined, it might be useful to try to get to the root of the crazy on this one.

      Why is snow so terrifying to her? Did she have a traumatic experience driving in the snow? Has she never driven in the snow and thinks it’s a bigger deal than it actually is? Does she have other options for getting to work in snowy weather, should it occur?

      I’m an experienced and fairly confident winter-weather driver (having grown up in a very snowy area of Idaho where four-wheel-drive and dressing for the weather in case you got stuck and had to walk home were de rigeur) and I try to avoid driving in the snow where I live now (Portland, Oregon, where people generally don’t know how to drive in the snow and tend to drive too fast or too slow for the conditions).

      It’s clearly understood in my workplace that each employee needs to have a getting-to-work-in-the-snow plan in place. In my case, that plan is getting up early, putting on my snow gear, and walking the three miles to the office. In other colleagues’ cases, it’s putting snow tires on the car at the beginning of November or knowing the winter weather mass transit schedules by heart. We all know we have to be here regardless of weather, unless it’s truly severe enough weather to shut the whole place down. It’s up to us HOW we get here, but we know being here isn’t negotiable.

  133. Mina*

    I’m a new manager who just realized, after three months having the person in the position, that I probably made a huge hiring mistake. It is a combination of the person being under-qualified and having personality issues (i.e. not following directions, not realizing the gravity of angering an important client). HR wants me to “manage him out” but my boss’ boss wants me to give him 30 days to show improvement.

    I’ve read the post about firing a mediocre employee, and the advice there made a lot of sense. My question is, is it dishonest to put someone on a 30 day plan when you already know they’d be better off somewhere else? One of the problems with this employee is that he is overconfident to the point where it almost seems delusional. He’s also not good at reading between the lines.

    He’s made such major blunders that it is too risky to give him any more additional high-level work that he was originally hired to take on. So it’s possible he could do okay or average on the small tasks I give him during the next four weeks. I’m afraid then it will look like he met expectations, and I’ll be stuck with him for the long-haul.

    1. BRR*

      I don’t like the concept of giving PIPs when there is no chance of passing it. I also don’t like firings to be a surprise. If you have been telling him where his work needs to be and that he’s not performing high enough I think it’s ok to let him go. It’s cruel to dangle false hope.

    2. Ludo*

      First, don’t beat yourself up. We all make mistakes when hiring sometimes.

      Have you been giving him this feedback along the way? If not, I would start immediately. I would also outline why he is a problem and tell him he must fix all of it (not just some) in order to stay. If he can’t, or simply doesn’t, then he needs to go.

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