open thread – October 3, 2014

by Alison Green on October 3, 2014

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

{ 1,116 comments }

{ 1,116 comments… read them below }

  1. Becca*

    Writing this for my friend. She is a speech therapist who works for a company that placed her in a nursing home. So company A is her employer and the one who pays her, while company B is the place she physically works at.

    The contract wasn’t renewed and company A has laid her off and told her to leave yesterday. Well the owner of Company B told her she HAS to come to work today or they will report her to the state and have her licensure taken for patient abandonment. Can they do this?? She’s 24 and freaking out. company A will not pay her if she goes in. I feel like company B is bullying her but we don’t know for sure. Anyone have any knowledge or have been in this situation?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I would suggest that she call the state and get the truth. As they are the ones who hold her license not company B.

      1. Lyssa*

        I agree. Call the state licensure board, and explain the situation. Then ask if they will give her something in writing (an email) saying whether or not she is obligated to work when her position has been terminated and there is no promise of pay. It would also be helpful to look up her state’s licensure regulations for her profession with respect to professional abandonment and payment (they are probably on her state’s website).

        That’s a crappy situation.

        1. Lyssa*

          Alternatively, presumably Company B was paying something for her services (to Company A, who was then paying her). Now that she’s no longer employed by Company A, she could provide independent contractor services to Company B as a freelancer, and have them pay her directly. She should approach Company B and ask if they can arrange to do that.

          Regardless, if she works for Company B, they do owe (and presumably had planned to pay) reasonable compensation for her services. She might actually come out ahead without A skimming from the top.

          1. Adam V*

            True, but keep in mind that working for yourself can be a headache if you’ve never done it before, so I’m not sure I’d suggest it to many people.

    2. Anonie*

      I don’t think they can do that. She is not under contract with them the company she works for had a contract with them. The issue is between the two companies. They can’t force her to do anything.

    3. Sunflower*

      I would tell her to call Company A and explain what Company B is saying- most likely they have dealt with this before and know how to handle it. Either that or contact the state.

      I’m not a lawyer but what law exactly would she be breaking by not coming in? If I was your friend I would tell Company B that ‘I’m sorry my contract has expired with Company A. Please speak with them’ and then cut off contact.

      1. Lyssa*

        She has a licence through the state that puts certain requirements on her (the same way that a doctor or a lawyer does). If she violates those requirements, such as by patient abandonment, the state could sanction her or take away her license. I doubt that this would count, but it’s theoretically possible. When you’re dealing with licensed professionals, it’s more than just an issue between the employee and employer(s).

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          But generally patient abandonment has to do with literally abandoning them without a caregiver. These patients will do just fine until a new speech therapist is found, and it’s not the OP’s friend’s responsibility to find another one for them. At most she will have an obligation to meet with the new therapist and go over notes and such. (IANAL, but I’ve worked in healthcare settings a lot. It may vary by state, but my guess is that the state licensing board will laugh at that threat.)

          1. Anna*

            Exactly. What would they do if she had found another job? They would have hired another speech therapist.

            1. The Cosmic Avenger*

              Yep. But oops, I meant to say, Company A is presumably either an inpatient or outpatient rehab facility. Patients who are at this facility without a speech therapist are not “abandoned” unless the speech therapist is the only clinical staffer in the room. For example, if the speech therapist left a patient in the now-empty facility at 11pm and went home without handing off care to another caregiver, THAT would be abandonment.

          2. Lyssa*

            Oh, I agree with that, like I said, I really doubt that this would count. (I am a lawyer, and actually do a lot of work with issues like this, but of course, I know nothing about the regulations of the state we’re discussing.) It’s just that it’s theoretically possible, and it’s more than just an issue involving employee/employer.

            1. Observer*

              OK, I’m not a lawyer, and the state in question might have specific rules here. But, keep in mind three things. One is that the major relationship between the therapist and facility, not patient. Secondly – and I would say crucially – the facility most definitely DID have a reasonable chance to find a replacement and. They knew that they were not going to renew the contract! Also, abandonment requires a unilateral act by the practitioner. But SHE was not the one to make this decision. THEY were the ones to decide to end the relationship. Are they REALLY claiming that refusing to work for free when they KNEW this was coming and made no provisions could be considered abandonment?

          3. Artemesia*

            Speech therapy is not an emergency situation. A patient hasn’t been left without food or basic care. Certainly call Company A and also the state and I would also file a complaint of extortion against Company B which is attempting to extort services from the employee by threatening legal action. In other words — this kind of bullying should be met with at least a counter threat and follow through on it. I’d be filing a complaint with the agency that oversees nursing homes; this is a case where the nursing home is not providing the service and then trying to bully someone into providing it without compensation. It is the nursing home that is abandoning patients by not renewing a contract for care or providing an alternative. Turn the tables on these bullies and make their life difficult with the accrediting or supervising agency.

    4. fposte*

      Agreeing with Totes that she should call the state–I’d also recommend she call her professional organization, who will likely have more relevant information at their fingertips (if she’s in the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association, they talk about answering ethics queries on their website, in fact).

      In fact, here’s a piece on the ASHA site about the ethics of client abandonment:

      http://www.asha.org/Practice/ethics/Client-Abandonment/

      1. AMT*

        Great link. Here is an ethics scenario from the same site, found here: http://www.asha.org/Practice/ethics/Ethics-Inquiries/

        “I have an offer for a great new job. Because my new employer needs me right away I will have to resign from my current setting with only two days’ notice. My current employer is complaining that she needs more time in order to hire a new clinician or my clients will go without services. She is threatening to file a complaint against me for ‘client abandonment.’ I think she is holding me hostage. Those clients are her responsibility, aren’t they?”

        Unfortunately, they don’t answer that question on the site, but they encourage members to call with these types of ethics inquiries.

    5. Frances*

      Hmm… my guess is the owner at company B didn’t think through the ramifications of not renewing company A’s contract or didn’t get a replacement lined up in time and is now panicking. I suppose it’s possible company A is also acting out of spite and laid off your friend as soon as the negotiations fell through not at the actual end of the current contract, but it’s not your friend’s responsibility to be a go-between here. I’m absolutely sure company B is lying, but even if a state agency did look into this they’d pretty quickly determine your friend was blameless here.

      I would call her supervisor at company A and tell her what company B is saying, and any further calls from company B she should tell them to take it up with company A.

        1. College+Career+Counselor*

          Company A sounds like a realllly shady allied health staffing company, and Company B sounds like a bully. Agreed with other folks to call the state to find out the situation (although depending on the location, calling the state to get a straight answer can be a special kind of hell). I have family members who are SLPs, and my understanding is that the license follows the therapist, not the employer. In other words, if either Company A or B want you to do something illegal or unethical, the THERAPIST will get in trouble and possibly have the license revoked. So I do understand the friend’s concern. If her contract (or the staffing agency’s contract) is terminated, and regulations require that patients be treated, it’s Company B that’s obligated to provide treatment, not the therapist.

    6. matcha123*

      I agree with the other replies; she should call a government agency ASAP and also document everything she can.
      If Company B knows that A hasn’t renewed her contract, what are they expecting her to do? I hate places that threaten to take a license away over something that shouldn’t be an issue.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        They are expecting her to work for no money and think they can “take” her license if she refuses.
        What a nice group of people. not.

        1. Artemesia*

          This is what it sounds like to me. It is illegal to threaten criminal prosecution in order to force someone to do something. I suspect that it is similarly illegal to threaten license suspension to get someone to work for free. At least it is shady enough to file a formal complaint with the state agency for nursing homes AND to use words like ‘extortion’ in the complaint. (as well as ‘threatened me with’ )

    7. Muriel Heslop*

      I would also advise your friend to call her state professional organization and/or ASHA. I am sure they have encountered this type of thing before involving contracting/subcontracting. They are wonderful resources and very supportive of their members!

    8. Becca*

      Thank you everyone. I’m going to send her this shortly. It’s super reassuring that no one is saying “yes this is normal”. It’s just an awful situation all around. Hopefully she finds something soon that doesn’t believe in bullying employees!

      1. A Bug!*

        Let your friend to be on the alert for other stuff going on. If the contract wasn’t renewed between the two companies because Company B wasn’t paying bills, and is actually trying to get free services, then they might try to string her along with promises of direct employment.

        Calling her professional ethics board is probably the best way to go. I’m hoping that your friend’s work isn’t life-or-death and that her patients won’t be irreparably harmed by missing a couple of days of therapy, should everything get straightened out!

        1. OhNo*

          Seriously, keep an eye out for anything else weird. If they’ve done this to your friend, they might be doing it to other people as well.

          Is there any kind of board or regulating agency that your friend can report this threat to? It sounds like something that the regulatory agency of whatever kind of facility this is might be interested to hear. Not that they will necessarily do anything about it, but it might be good to have it on record in case something similar happens and causes problems in the future.

      2. Cucumber*

        I would also tell her to make sure she documents absolutely everything such as hours worked, paychecks, etc. Companies A and B both sound like snakes. It may be that B will fold as soon as she proves the state says she doesn’t have to work for free (I can’t believe they would), but they might get really nasty with her.

        A company I worked for closed down and disappeared without sending W-2s; even PayChex (who had processed their payments) didn’t know how to get in touch with them, and told me they had gone to ground. Fortunately I had kept all my records and was able to get it credited to social security and file my taxes.

        1. TL -*

          Company B has to pay her if she works for them (either through Company A or by herself.) That is definitely law. The state can’t require her to go into work unpaid.

    9. A Teacher*

      Call the state licensure board and get it it in writing–she’s not “critical care” though either and has no duty to act if she’s not getting paid, at least in my state under licensure law as I understand it (I have a license in a medically related field too) but call the licensure department and probably the state department of health too in order to be sure.

    10. chump with a degree*

      I would suggest to her that she agree as long as Company B agrees to pay her about 50% more than Company A did, since she will be doing her own paperwork. Once they sign the contract, they can have her back.

      Otherwise, asking her to work for free? Piffle!

    11. INTP*

      I know nothing about the legality of this, but it almost sounds like Company B was making an intentional effort to get free labor for awhile. Why would they terminate their speech therapy contract with Company A if they can’t be without a speech therapist? Unless it’s some low-level people at Company B who had nothing to do with the decision and are calling the OP’s friend to make threats because they don’t want to be personally inconvenience by the company’s decisions (they were going to take their break during speech therapy and now they can’t or whatever).

      I just can’t get over the nerve of a company to terminate/fail to renew someone’s employment contract and then try to make it her problem by demanding that she show up when it’s by their own choice that she isn’t being paid!

    12. GreatLakesGal*

      This is cray-cray.

      Typically, what happens in these situations is that the company terminating the contract makes an offer to the clinical staff in the building, usually individually– they can choose to stay at the current location and negotiate terms of employment, or they may choose to stay with company A, who can try to relocate them to other worksites, or they can seek employment elsewhere.

      I feel like there is a piece of information missing here, but regardless, she’s paying her ASHA dues, and may as well get some mileage there, and give them a call, in order to reassure herself.

  2. Not real name*

    I work at a top university (US News top ten ranking) and the HR department offers a free “management development certificate.” I know nobody really cares about certificates, is it worthwhile for me to purse to add to my resume? I thought maybe the name value from the university might help. Should I just do it because it’s free and just requires I attend some classes during work hours?

    1. Mallorie, the recruiter*

      I would do it for the development; who knows, you might learn a few things. You could put it on your resume, but I would NOT let it take up more than one line and probably won’t mean anything to anyone. However, if it is free, why not? Like I said, you might learn a thing or two, or might even pick up on things you could later use or talk about during an interview. I am all about free classes and seminars!

    2. LittleT*

      @Not real name: sure, why not? Even if you don’t work in either HR or management, the certificate still sounds worthwhile.

      And the fact that it a) comes from a legitimate University and is b) free? This sounds like a win-win.

      Go for it and be proud to add this additional accomplishment to your resume! This shows you’re interested in continually upgrading your skills and pursuing lifelong learning.
      :0)

    3. Barbara in Swampeast*

      If it is something that you are interested in, go ahead, especially if it is free and you can attend during work hours. It couldn’t hurt, and even if future employers aren’t impressed by it, you could learn some value information.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think this cautious route is the wisest. Assume nothing extraordinary will happen because of the course and then decide if you still want it or not.

        My bias: I have learned more here than I did in four years of college. People who are actually doing have better info than people who read about it. Just my opinion, though.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      Will the information gained from the cert help you in future job opportunities? If yes, then go for it. If not or you have no actual interest, then why would you do it? And is it a cert that is credit bearing and offered through the uni or is a “cert” from the HR dept? That’s a much bigger deal than the ranking of your uni. The second is kind of meaningless to employers.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Eh, if you’re actively interested in the course material, sure. But don’t do it if your primary motivator is to put it on your resume; it’s unlikely to matter there. (Also, for what it’s worth, most academic programs about managing people are pretty terrible, so I’d be cautious unless you’ve heard great things about this program specifically.)

      1. Not real name*

        I really would only care to put it on my resume (I wasn’t sure if the University brand would counter it being a certificate). I took one class to see and a lot of the material was already covered in this blog and most other courses mimic topics I’ve seen here (what about an AAM certificate?).

          1. BRR*

            Alison new book idea! Introduction to working in an office for the first time. How to deal with jerk managers, how almost everything is legal, and how to talk to people who are annoying/disgusting.

              1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

                IS IT LEGAL?

                Throw that on your cover and keyword stuff it in your Amazon book description.

                Bestseller!

                (Just don’t give away the ending of “yes it is, except in California” until they pay for the book)

                You’re welcome. :)

              2. Nashira*

                Pleeeease write it. I would have given my left arm for a book like that, when I started working. I would buy copies for every new grad/office worker I ever met.

              3. BRR*

                All I ask is if you use the royalties for a vacation home I get to use it one week a year :). But seriously I think we would all buy, gift, and recommend it to everyone.

              4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

                It’s “The Perfect College Graduation Gift!”

                Gotta do hard copies.

                Do a bundle with “The Places You will Go”. This is what you do when you get there.

                Include funny stories. Whole chapter of the wackjobs . Get on Colbert!

                this could happen. Instant classic.

                1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

                  I was kidding about the bundle. I think the covers would clash too much for a bundle but, still, Seuss, not a bad pairing for an Amazon suggestion.

          1. OhNo*

            +1, yes, please.

            I have recently discovered the wonder of MOOCs, and one on general “Working in an Office 101” would be awesome. :)

            1. Cath in Canada*

              MOOCs are great – I’ve taken four now, three for work and one for fun. I’m disappointed that I just had to un-enroll from a Coursera Formal Logic course due to a crazy October workload, but I’ll sign up for the next session for sure. A management for beginners MOOC would be awesome!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Alison is spot on here. After the WTC tragedy, I was in a business class. I asked the prof for thoughts on work place violence.
        She said that was irrelevant and did not need to be discussed in class.

        I assumed that meant she had no clue what to do about the random acts of workplace violence, either.

    6. LAI*

      I wouldn’t “just” do it because it’s free and only a few hours. But if you are genuinely interested in this topic and plan to engage in the coursework, then I would absolutely say to take advantage of it. I think any future advantage that you are going to derive would be from demonstrating actual skills, which this course may help you hone or think more critically about, not just a line on your resume.

    7. Sharon*

      If it’s not a huge time commitment, why not? Best case, you learn something valuable and do some networking; worst case you spent a few days (on the clock!) in a class for something that never has to be on your resume.

  3. Elkay*

    I accepted a new job this week! I even managed to negotiate higher pay than they were originally offering (about a $2.5K increase). Huge thanks to Alison and this site, without it I wouldn’t have ever thought to negotiate or name a salary range.

      1. LittleT*

        Congrats! This website has been very helpful to me, too, as I conduct my job search (even though I’m already gainfully employed full time).

        1. Mrs. Badcrumble*

          Congratulations! Allow me to pile on — I just put in my resignation and will be starting my brand new job in 4 weeks, which includes a massive raise, cool work, and lovely people. I’m pretty sure I would’ve never, ever gotten it without the advice on this website, especially with regard to writing a cover letter and what questions to ask during the interview. Thanks!

          1. Elkay*

            Excellent user name :)

            I should say I’m actually taking a slight pay cut (about 5%) with my new job but I negotiated them up from their initial offer which would have been about 8% drop. The package surrounding it should make up the shortfall though (bonus/shares)

          2. sitting duck*

            I also just got a new job, I start on Monday! The advice from AAM was super helpful, and it was encouraging to read along with others having the same struggles!

            I unfortunately did not negotiate my pay (although its more than I’ve ever made before) because at the time I was negotiating a flexible schedule, and I didn’t think I could negotiate both….of course now it turns out that the flexible schedule isn’t needed anymore not I already accepted to pay. Oh well, I was hoping for a bit more, but I will just have to wow them in my first year and then negotiate at my review!

    3. EntirelyErica*

      Congrats! Thought I would add on as well. I started my new job this week. I lost my previous job in March and had been actively searching since. A former co-worker suggested I take a look at this site as I started my job search. Thanks to AAM, I re-vamped my resume and cover letter, accepted a job offer with GREAT benefits, and doubled my pay. I feel like an infomercial for AAM, but I am proof that persistence pays off. Thank you!!!

    4. Jean*

      I’m sitting here smiling after reading everyone’s good news.
      P.S. When I sent a job-hunting friend a list of ideas & resources, I definitely recommended AAM.

  4. Sunflower*

    I’m applying for project manager positions(non technical) and researching what salary I should be asking for. I’m closer to an Associate or Assistant Project Manager since I have a couple years of project coordinator experience but some job titles that fit my experience are Project Manager. I’m researching salaries and finding the range is HUGE since this position can require 2 years of experience or over 10 and some don’t distinguish between IT and non-IT. I’m also severely underpaid at my job so I’m having a tough time figuring out what number I should really be looking at. I would ask people but I don’t really know any project managers. Any advice on how to narrow it down or places to look that I might have missed?

    1. Mallorie, the recruiter*

      This is tough because “Project Manager” is a super general term and is probably used for a lot of jobs that are NOT project managers. Plus your geography probably matters a lot too. How “Severe” is severely underpaid? If you are that underpaid, I might almost say to double what you are making and that might give you a good starting point —- but that really only works if you are REALLY underpaid.

      1. Janis*

        We are going through this *right now.* My new manager (a great guy, but a little green) put out a job req for a department manager and said it required “project management” experience. Old Fogey #1 (me) and Old Fogey #2 (47 y.o. coworker) pointed out that to run a department you don’t really need PM experience. Too late — before we could amend the wording we were inundated with resumes of super-technical PMs.

    2. MaryMary*

      Exactly what types of projects do you manage? Internal? External? Do you focus on short or long term projects? Do you usually focus on one at a time, or have multiple projects in flight? Do you have client/customer contact? Are you responsible for budgeting or staffing? Do you have people managment responsibilities as well? Do you have PMP, Six Sigma, or any other certifications?

      I’ve had a project manager title at two different organizations, and my responsibilities have been pretty wide ranging. At OldJob, it probably would have been more accurate to say I was an account manager/client manager/[area of expertise] manager. Now, I split my time between client consulting and interal project management. I have ten years of experience in the industry. I’d say my pay range (I’d rather not give specifics) is between $75-$100k. I live in a mid-to-large sized Midwest city.

    3. INTP*

      At my large company, I know that PMs start around $30k-ish in lower cost-of-living areas to $45k-ish in New York and San Francisco. This is for the entry level PM positions where people are hired with little experience. It might go up slightly for someone with a few years of in-industry project experience, but the salaries posted on glassdoor don’t go over $60k. (It’s a non-technical industry, obviously. In my IT recruiting days the IT PM salaries usually started at $100k but most probably required 10 years of experience including a technical background.)

      You’ve probably already checked, but Glassdoor is a good reference for looking at salaries for companies in your industry.

  5. Ayeaye*

    I have a new job! Not the one I talked about last week, but a different one. Less money, but a whole less stress even though it’s a heck of a commute. I’m really excited. Start date is October 27th. Here’s to exciting new times! I’m planning on using the 1-2hour commute for reading and video games… I keep accidentally job searching still at the moment though. Need to think up commute-suitable breakfasts. And I’m going to buy a new flask! What’s your favourite thing about starting a new job?

    1. LittleT*

      Congratulations! More money is not always the blessing it seems. I know, because I foolishly accepted a job that sounded great on paper and the reality was very, very different. Two years later, I’m still trying to leave but the higher salary can make it difficult, as other positions are not paying the same as what I currently have.

      Best of luck with your new role. Use that commuting time to read or relax – you’ll learn to get used to it.

      1. Ayeaye*

        Thank you! I’m really pleased. The other better paid job would have involved constantly fighting for every penny and a constant battle for legitimacy of the service – instead I get to be creative and have independence with developing my own approach to delivery and it’s in an environment I love! Definitely a great path to be on regardless. I hope you manage to find the magic combination of enough money and a decent position, it’s a tough situation to be in.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Congrats!

      My favorite part of a new job (other than the possible increase in salary!) is the opportunity to set up new systems and desk organization. It’ll be all messed up within a couple weeks, but for a while I get to start fresh :)

    4. M*

      Congrats!! Maybe look up jar breakfasts/lunches? (I’m thinking oatmeal in jars, or salad in a jar). If you’re taking public transit try to keep the smells of the breakfast food to a minimum. I (mentally) shake my fist at every single person who brings on fast food on my bus home because I’m starving and it smells soooo good.

    5. OhNo*

      Congrats! For commute-friendly breakfasts, I highly recommend wraps or jar oatmeal. My personal favorite is to take a tortilla, spread half with peanut butter, half with nutella, and wrap some kind of fruit in it. That way I get a little protein and sugar to start my day off – and it’s portable!

      (Since you have a long commute for reading, maybe you should treat yourself to a few new books, too, to go with that flask!)

      1. voluptuousfire*

        @OhNo…that sounds like heaven. :) Try it with Justin’s Honey Almond Peanut Butter. Ooh…that tortilla would go fantastically with a sliced up apple.

          1. voluptuousfire*

            Warning though, the Justin’s Honey PB can be expensive. I get it at Wegman’s for 5.49 but elsewhere it can be over 6 bucks. It’s worth it though.

  6. Megan*

    What is your take on exit interviews? I wrote in a few months ago regarding my manager who won’t hold anyone accountable because she values “getting along” above all else, and Alison’s advice was to get out. Link is here. So I’m doing exactl y that, only now upper management has caught on that all is not well in my department.

    Now they’re asking me to do an in person exit interview. This is totally NOT the norm in this organization. While I have no qualms about telling the board exactly how my manager has been letting everyone get away with murder, including several severe violations of our code of ethics and conduct, I’ve never done this before.

    1. Mallorie, the recruiter*

      Go for it. I am a huge fan of exit interviews — if it seems like they sincerely want to know, I would tell them. But you know this place best! If you are afraid that this is not on the “up and up”, then don’t. But I think GOOD companies really want to know the truth and make it a safe place for people to be honest. If you feel this place will do that, be honest!

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Do you trust them to handle the info well and ensure there’s zero retribution against you as far as references? That’s the key factor. Some people will tell you never to tell the truth in an exit interview, that there’s nothing in it for you, but I think they’re worth doing if you have reason to trust that they’ll use the information well and protect you from consequences. (I was once able to eject an abusive manager due solely to people willing to be honest with me in exit interviews. And frankly, it strengthened my relationships with the people who talked to me, and that’s benefited them in some ways too. So it’s not quite right when people give across-the-board don’t-do-them advice.)

      1. Megan*

        I do trust them on this, and I will be able to get good references from all of them. Good point though, I will double check with the manager who is heading up the ‘inquest’ as it is. My coworkers are begging me to go all out with the exit interview though I will definitely be professional and calm about it.

      2. Bea W*

        That’s heartening to hear that you were able to take action on account of people being honest in exit interviews. When I left a company where the Big Boss was a toxic bully, I was honest with specific examples. I know other people were honest as well. She still works there, and I suspect she will be for a long time even while the department continues to hemorrhage people. The real problem is unfortunately at a level where HR has no control. I didn’t even really trust that it would matter or wouldn’t hurt, but given that I had already been hurt enough and I was going to work for another company immediately, I figured it wasn’t going to get any worse.

        I really think people should be honest whenever possible in exit interviews even if there is “nothing in it for you”. Whatever might come of it, even if it’s too late for you, it’s not too late for people who are still there and future employees.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      I would be honest but extremely professional when you share. Try not to get emotional (angry or upset), just tell it like it is. It might help to write down the major issues, so you don’t forget something.

      1. krisl*

        What Totes said. Sticking to just the facts will help you sound more professional, and it will give more weight to what you have to say.

    4. J.B.*

      How much will you need from current manager in the future and would any of those above be good references? Also, how much do you trust the people interviewing you to be discreet about it? If they are likely to set up one of those flashing arrows towards you as the source I’d pass. If they might be more reasonable maybe go. But still be diplomatic, “it was hard to deal with this situation” rather than “she’s incompetent”.

    5. A Non*

      Can you line up people other than this manager to be references for you? When I’ve been working under terribad managers, there have often been other sympathetic people (senior coworkers, other managers, HR people, sometimes even my boss’s boss) who had a reasonable degree of insight on my performance who were happy to act as references for me. If you can get that in place, then you’ll be much more free to burn bridges with your current manager.

      (I’m a fan of telling it like it is in exit interviews. Of course, I also work in a field where there are more job openings than qualified applicants, so YMMV.)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Maybe OP can get someone to agree to be her “acting” manager in that case. Does not hurt to ask that question before starting The Talk.

    6. AdAgencyChick*

      Rule #1: Protect yourself.
      Rule #2: If you can be honest while following Rule #1, do so.

      Basically it depends on how much you’ll need your current boss and/or her managers as references in the future and whether you think management will (or even CAN) keep what you say confidential. After all, you could have a tight-lipped HR department who won’t name names, but if only a couple of people quit in a given quarter and suddenly your ex-manager starts getting negative feedback from her superiors, she’s going to figure out where it came from no matter how much names are not attached to feedback.

      I think the advice from other posters about being as unemotional as possible is spot-on. The more you can pinpoint indisputable issues rather than sounding like you’re simply complaining about personality differences, the more you come out smelling like a rose.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Also — if you think your crappy boss is going to be a bad reference regardless of what you say in the exit interview, then take that into consideration and feel free to be candid!

        1. Bea W*

          When I’m damned if I don’t and damned if I do, I prefer to do. If the ex-boss won’t give you the same consideration, there’s no point in twisting your head into knots trying to sugar coat your experience.

    7. Just me*

      I tend to be direct; I had a talk with the CEO of the company. Nothing changed, I saw no reason to waste my breath or risk a reference by being honest. I did mention salary as a primary driver, but there was so much more.

      If I thought I could have had a bigger impact I would have considered saying more.

    8. Melissa*

      I did an in-person exit interview for one of my last jobs. Our department was going through some strife; there were clear administrative and management problems that were affecting work at my level, and the person who interviewed me was my boss’s boss, who was brand-new to the role. She wanted to figure out how to fix things in the department. It also helped that my own supervisor was not a part of the problem.

      I found that my exit interview was pretty good/useful. I knew when it was so I sort of mentally prepared myself with a prioritized list of the things I wanted to talk about – prioritized because I didn’t know if I would get to all of them, which I didn’t because the interviewer probed me for more information about certain things. I took a dispassionate, unemotional tone; tried to speak very matter-of-factly, and spoke only from experience. Some of the worst things that happened in the department I heard about second-hand – or heard from coworkers, but didn’t directly happen to me, so I didn’t address those because I couldn’t talk directly about them. I attempted to offer solutions from my perspective if I could think of them. I also tried to focus on the most fixable problems. There were some structural issues in this role that had to do with the structure of the organization I worked for, but those things would not be easily changed (or changed at all) by the person interviewing me and those immediately surrounding her in the chain of command, so I pushed them down the priorities list.

      In the end, it went very well. The interviewer seemed very interested and appreciative of my comments and probed some of them more deeply. My supervisor also later told me that her boss (the one who interviewed me) was impressed and very happy with the exit interview I gave and appreciated the professional tone and solution-oriented approach I had, so that’s good to know :D

      1. Melissa*

        Oh, and one more thing – I made sure to also discuss some positives about my environment and what I really liked, including my own supervisor and what I thought she did well. Again, this was only because my supervisor was not the problem, but identifying positives that surround your manager can help make the negatives show up more, I guess. Example: one of the main problems in our department were wildly differing expectations for the exact same role, such that some people in my role were working twice as many hours as other people (in part because their supervisors were offloading their own work to their subordinates). Since I didn’t have the experience of being overworked I didn’t bring that up, but I DID mention in detail how much I appreciated my supervisor basically doing her own job, remaining flexible and checking in to ensure that we weren’t overworked.

    9. INTP*

      I have always followed my gut feeling. At one highly dysfunctional company, I was diplomatic but honest, which was awkward as my manager (responsible for most of the issues) did the exit interview. However, she took it well and there were changes after I left. I don’t know why she listened to me in my exit interview when she never listened to the same things when I (or the many other people with the same complaints) was still employed, but apparently she did. She was an inexperienced manager, with no experience in other offices besides that one, kind of thrust into responsibility by the death of the long-time, much-loved VP. She was just misguided but not invested in her dysfunctional manager ways.

      At the next, I was just positive and maintained a completely neutral reason for leaving even as my manager prodded me for possible other motives. The problem here was a CEO and it was basically his intrinsic personality that was making everyone miserable. I think my boss knew it and wanted me to say something, but he wasn’t going to change. His problem wasn’t inexperience or a lack of information, it was just that he was a jerk addicted to crisis situations (you know the people who will put off even the most minor task until it becomes a crisis?).

      In your case, I think you should tread carefully. Do you have other people who have supervised you who can provide references? Sometimes companies want a reference specifically from your direct supervisor, in which case you’d be pretty screwed if the one bridge you burned was your relationship with your boss :/ But if you have other people above your head and above her head who can speak to your work and maybe tell a reference-checker about the situation to back up why you can’t get one from your supervisor, it would be safer.

  7. C Average*

    I interviewed for an internal role I’d really love to have last Tuesday (as in, September 23). The two panelists were both people I’ve known for a long time, occasionally collaborate with, and get along really well with personally–we’ve always had good vibes. They said they were looking to fill the role quickly and would let candidates know their decision early to mid-next week (i.e., this week that’s ending now).

    I am still waiting to hear. I’m going a little bit mad.

    I’m guessing I didn’t get the job and they have made an offer and are perhaps waiting for it to be accepted or in negotiations, and aren’t notifying the rejected candidates until that process is complete.

    I 100% know that these people would NOT neglect to notify the rejected candidates–that’s not how they roll at all.

    I really hope I hear from them today. I don’t want to spend all weekend and potentially even longer in suspense!

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Breathe! Really, they’re only two days behind schedule…which is so normal. I think hiring managers tend as a group to be overly optimistic with giving timelines to candidates. Then somebody has the flu and all of a sudden the candidates have to wait another week. So I think it’s equally likely that a decision simply has not yet been made, for all that they planned on moving quickly at the outset.

      I hope you get it!

      1. AthenaC (used to be AC)*

        I’m experiencing this myself! I interviewed last Friday and was told I’d know by Wednesday. Well, they did the third interview on Wednesday and now it’s Friday. I checked on my application, and it doesn’t say “not selected” but wow this is nervewracking.

    2. C Average*

      So, I decided to walk to the campus cafeteria for lunch and happened to run into the hiring manager for the job. I’m walking along and I hear this voice say, “Hey, C!”

      “Oh, hey. How’s it going?” (Me, trying to be all chill and stuff while thinking, “Please please please do not tell me I didn’t get the job right here on this sidewalk in front of all these people because I don’t want to cry in front of you AND them. At least I’m wearing my big movie-star sunglasses so I might be be able to hide behind them . . . “)

      “Great, great. Really busy. Hey, I’ve been meaning to let you know we need a couple more days to make a decision on the job.”

      “Yeah, I figured. I mean, stuff happens. It’s like a law of nature around here, right? I figured it was a safe assumption that you weren’t just trying to mess with me.” (So chill. I even sound convincing to myself! There is no indication whatsoever that I have been as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs for the past four days.)

      We both laugh.

      And then some of the usual small talk ensues about weekend plans, the weather, blah blah blah, and then he says, “Well, have a great weekend, and we’ll touch base next week.”

      All righty.

      Aaaaand exhale.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Not reading anything into that – but it was nice of him to say something to you, a show of respect.

        1. C Average*

          He’s a good guy. I’ve known him since we worked an event together seven years ago, and we chat pretty often, occasionally collaborate cross-functionally, and sometimes even go for a run together. If I don’t get the job, it’ll be really important to me to preserve the working relationship and friendship, because it’s a good one.

  8. LoveAndLight*

    The last few weeks have been very rough on me. First, after being a finalist for a job that I really wanted, someone else was selected. Then, my boss announced that he was leaving for another department. Since then, several other people in my department have announced their departures too.

    While I’m happy that they are moving on to things that they are excited about, it’s been very hard for me to stay right where I am (not to mention the extra work I have to do now that we’re short-handed). I’m trying to remain positive, continue to look for opportunities, etc. but it’s difficult. Right now, there are few (internal) opportunities that I’m interested in/qualified for, which doesn’t help the situation.

    1. C Average*

      I can very much relate to this.

      I have no brilliant ideas to offer, but I can definitely offer my empathy.

      Sometimes it feels like my job (which I’ve known was the wrong job for me literally from the day I started it, and have been doing for nearly three years now) is bumming me out to the extent that I exude bummed-outness and will therefore never be hired for anything better. I’m trying to find projects and extracurriculars that excite me so that when I do get interviews, I come across as lively and enthusiastic (which I am by nature! I’m just getting ground down by being in the wrong role).

      1. Snork Maiden*

        Add me to the bummed-out club. I am just tired of everything at work and it’s spilling over into my daily life. I also feel trapped. I have extracurriculars I enjoy but even pulling them out and starting on them feels like a chore. Though once I start, I do feel really good.

        It is good to feel I’m not alone, and to remember that just because you think something is one way (ie you will never be hired for something better) absolutely does not make it true. It’s very difficult to stay positive when people are leaving and I wouldn’t be too hard on yourself for not being a Peppy Paul/Polly during this time.

      2. pup*

        Gosh, I feel this way too. My job is turning me into such a downer! I really need to stay put, I think, since it’s my first job out of grad school and I’ve only been here a little over a year, but I just feel drained. The job doesn’t feel right, and sometimes (a lot of the time) it seems like I’m just working in order to produce more work for myself to do tomorrow. When I interviewed, they kept talking about how much demand there is for the kind of services I do (it’s a new position) but it just has not materialized. Plus there’s a whole lot of negativity here – not directed at me at all but there are lots of unhappy people in this organization and it’s tough to feel good about being a part of it.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Start looking now, before you become too drained to get out of bed in the morning. Probably if you look now it will take some time to find something worthwhile. I stayed at one job way too long and I had to quit it in order to have energy to job hunt. I was really drained.

    2. Red*

      I’m echoing C Average–I sympathize with your position. “Extracurriculars” are what I do to manage my morale, too.

    3. The Earl Marshal*

      I can definitely relate to this. I had 5 interviews for an audit analyst role over a three month period. I didn’t the job, and to make matters worse I actually first found out I didn’t get the job based on social media (type in the exact job title on LinkedIn and see if anyone has updated their title to the new job recently.) I had to call the company for an update, I am pretty sure I would have been left hanging if I hadn’t called them to be officially rejected.

  9. Diet Coke Addict*

    My “new” coworker (here since July) has been driving me up the wall this week. My boss took an entire day to re-teach her a process which is absolutely fundamental to the job–which I covered on her second day of training, showed her multiple times, and referred her to my written instruction guide thereafter–and her excuse was “I didn’t understand it when DCA told me.” Our tech is sick of her asking things like (this morning) “How do I get my email?” (seriously).

    The crowning moment of WTFery this week was when our receptionist was out and we were swapping phone duty. She answered the phone, took down a message, and then emailed my boss–“So-and-so from American Express would like you to call her back at 1-800-Telemarketer to discuss different card options.” I cannot believe that in 2014 anyone needs to be instructed that you don’t need to take a message from a telemarketer, nor do you need to pass it along to your boss. But my boss will never correct her or fire her after “hand-picking” her from a stack of applicants–so it’s on me to find a new job and leave because I’m beginning to think quite seriously that the longer I’m stuck here, the more my ideas of normal are being warped.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      “The crowning moment of WTFery this week ”

      Totally read that as “WTFerry,” which I assumed was somewhat like the Crazy Train. Which this lady is also on.

    2. Indy*

      I am dealing with a mirrored situation of this now, with someone in a mid-career level position.

      WTFery is our word of the day! Thank you!

      2. Rebecca*

        The PHB handpicked this gem from a stack of resumes, apparently. My manager thinks it’s neat to give totally unqualified people “a chance”. Yes, maybe for her, but not for the people who have to train and work with them.

        1. Adam*

          I mean I can empathize a bit with helping people a bit behind the times. There was a time when I didn’t know a whole lot about email either after all. But the simple stuff she should be able to learn and commit to knowledge right? No different than if she was learning some new subject back in school you’d figure…

          1. Diet Coke Addict*

            The worst part of this is that on her resume she claims to have taken a computer skills course and an Excel course.

            Seems to me in that Excel course they’d have covered “what is a row” and “what is a column,” as well as the basics of copying and pasting, but maybe not.

            1. Adam*

              I didn’t really start to use email until my Freshman year of college which was 2002. I didn’t have much use for it prior to that. Granted it didn’t take long for me to figure out but I was still new to it at some point!

    4. Squirrel!*

      The crowning moment of WTFery

      Love it, stealing it. ;)

      I can somewhat commiserate, and unfortunately have no good advice. I am leaving my office in a few weeks and the person who will be taking over my phone duties is the section secretary (this is government). She regularly backs me up when I am not out, but I just found out recently from the techs (who I answer phones for, but they get all the high-level questions I can’t answer) that she will forward them Every. Single. Call. Even if it is something easy she can look up herself, she won’t. And while they are easy calls, there are many of them, and sending all of them to the techs interrupts their workflow. There’s no reason they should be getting these simple calls, and the secretary has resources at her fingertips to answer 99% of the calls we get (as in I literally wrote a FAQ and a cheat sheet for everyone and she has them for reference right in front of her, next to her phone). I just feel bad that she won’t be helpful and will increase the [already-huge] worklaod of the techs by not being a frickin’ team player.

      1. OhNo*

        Ugh, how annoying. Is there any way you can present this to her as a facet of the job? I mean, it doesn’t sound like it is explicitly required, but you could try something like “The goal of our job answering phones is to weed out 80% of the calls so the techs don’t have to deal with them. You should only be forwarding one out of every five calls, at the most. Make sure you exhaust every resource you have before forwarding the call to a tech.”

        Dunno if that would help, but it couldn’t hurt to try.

    6. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      You know, as much as this sucks for you, I enjoy reading these stories. Like Office or Parks & Rec. I can *see* her.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      My heart goes out to you. I had a subordinate like this. She used to be my peer. I got promoted away from her and thought ‘phew”. No such luck. She got moved to my department. Every day was her first day. I really worried for her safety because she did not seem to retain the simplest things.
      For other reasons I moved on from that job. It has been five years since I left and she is STILL there. Seeing that validates my choice to move on.

    8. OfficePrincess*

      Thank you for making me feel better about my day. My job’s WTFery looks tolerable now.

      1. Diet Coke Addict*

        Nope, this is the first time. The other people that I’ve or my coworkers have trained have gotten the hang of it quickly and haven’t needed re-teaching at all.

  10. Stephanie*

    My interview drought is over! Thing is, the job has some minor supervisory duties and I have no supervisory experience, aside from managing high school students from some volunteer work. Suggestions on how to answer questions about supervising others?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “I read about management obsessively” wouldn’t be a bad thing to throw in (and it’s true, as a regular reader here….).

      You don’t want to imply that’s all there is to it or have that be the totality of your answer, of course, but finding a way to mention it wouldn’t be a bad thing.

      1. krisl*

        The only reason I read about management obsessively is that I read this blog, and I read it because it’s interesting and helpful and fun. I like learning this way.

    3. BRR*

      First, Congratulations!

      Did you lead projects at any previous positions? Maybe you could quickly state that you know what goes into being a supervisor. “I managed X number of people while volunteering at Chocolate teapots and know that being a supervisor requires the ability to do A,B, and C.”

    4. Trixie*

      This could be a great transition for you, adding supervisory experience. Did you manage/oversee vendors? Or manage projects at work, following up with coworkers/staff?

    5. Pontoon Pirate*

      In addition to what others have already said, think about what makes a great supervisor and find ways to discuss how you’ve shown those attributes. For example, did you lead a project/others where you had to set the scope, make a tough decision, set expectations/consequences?

    6. Adam*

      Good luck.

      You may not have a lot of supervisory experience, but what about coordinating various projects in the workplace? You aren’t supervising per se, but you are keeping track of a lot of little pieces and who is responsible for them.

    7. Puddin*

      Supervising is telling people what to do and expecting a specific outcome (more or less) right? So how do you currently do that? You may have a lot of ‘indirect’ supervision in your life/career. An example from my career is that I was responsible to get over 250 people to turn in business documents by a deadline every quarter. This involved communication prior to the launch, setting expectations, tracking turn ins, follow ups for those lagging, etc. I considered this indirect supervision and promoted it as such in interviews. Indirect supervision can be more difficult too. Since you do not have any political power, you have to use change management and persuasion skills rather than the threat of Mad Boss.

      Maybe you have the actions of a supervisor, just not the title?

      1. Lulubell*

        This has been my exact approach, to a smaller scale, and it absolutely worked in getting me my new job.

    8. Haleyca*

      Everyone has some great suggestions! Another one that I use when talking about things I don’t have much experience in is to talk about things you have seen other people do that have worked that you hope to emulate. “When I worked at Corp. I worked with a manager who did A, B, and C and those things worked really well because A, B, and C.” I think this shows that you are interested in the work and have been paying attention and are learning on your own, even if you don’t have direct experience with the situation.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Look at some components of supervising. Have you ever taught anybody how to do something? Have you ever corrected anyone’s work? Have you talked over a difficult situation you had with a coworker [meaning you and the coworker were at odds]?
      Over your working life, have you kept track of what your bosses have done well?

      One thing they will be interested in is can you see a bigger picture? Typically, people come in and do their own work. They don’t look up and they don’t look around. Do you see how tasks are inter-related or even co-dependent? Do you understand the work flows? Document A goes to Sue who fills out parts 2 and 3. She passes it to Bob who researches and provides inputs then it goes to Amanda who… you get the idea.

      Most of management work is about willingness to take on what ever needs to be handled. If you can demonstrate that you have volunteered for things outside your usual scope that would be helpful. This could mean something as simple as you stop and help coworkers with their problems, even if you are not totally familiar with every aspect of what they are doing.

      And lastly, do you know when to get the boss involved? Think of instances where you touched base with the boss before proceeding.

    11. Marcy*

      Don’t sell yourself short. Managing high school students can be a great way to learn to deal with difficult people. My first supervisor job was supervising high school and college students and they are harder to manage than adults. Seriously. I learned a lot about what works and what doesn’t. You probably learned more than you think.

    12. Audiophile*

      Congrats! Fingers crossed for you.

      I’ve struggled with this too, I have very limited supervisory experience, and I’ve seen that thrown in more and more in job descriptions. I occasionally, supervised someone when I trained them on the database software, but that was few and far between, and really I don’t consider it supervising because truth be told, I let them do their thing. I’d correct as needed, but most people were computer literate enough that they didn’t really need my help.

      I’d mention the volunteer work and the high school students, and I like Alison’s answer about reading about managing others. I think if you include that and the supervisory experience you have, you’d have a well-rounded answer.

    13. Artemesia*

      Think about the challenges you faced in managing teen volunteers and how they are similar to the challenges you might face with employees and then use the examples e.g. I read a lot about management and supervision and one of the constant problems people seem to have is with employees who XYZ — I have had to deal with that in my volunteer supervisor role and this is the sort of thing I think is effective in keeping people on track.

      And think about other situations where you might have used those skills and of course read up on typical supervisory issues so you are conversant about challenges and techniques and can talk about how you are interested in this area, have some limited experience, and have read up on it and are anxious to put the principles into use.

  11. The Other Dawn*

    Nothing new to report on my progress with the job search, although I applied to another position. I have ruthlessly edited my resume down to the bare essentials so as not to include anything that would be implied by my titles, since that would be redundant. And I changed my basic cover letter to be much more conversational. It wasn’t formal by any means, but now it sounds exactly the way I talk in real life. I sure hope I have some luck soon. Not sure there’s anything else I can do but hope for the best.

    1. Audiophile*

      Good luck!

      I have to say, the last time I edited my cover letter, a few months back, that’s what seemed to do the trick. A took a little while to really notice the change, but I started to get more calls and interviews.

      I left some redundant things in my resume, but really tried to trim it as much as possible. For older positions, I edited down to one bullet and one or two sentences. The positions with the most bullets are my current remote volunteer position and the contract position I have.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Thanks!

        Yes, same here. I’ve feel I’ve edited as much as I possibly can. It’s tough because my whole career I was pretty much a Jill-of-all-trades at this one company so I find it hard to get across that I have all this diverse experience, but still keep it short.

        1. Audiophile*

          It is hard, I definitely understand. I felt like I was taking out important information and I wouldn’t remember to mention it in an interview, if I got one.

          I used to have 2-3 bullets for each job, and I had 4 jobs listed. That’s way too much for each role.
          Then I asked a few people to take a look at it and they said to really edit it down, so the job with the most bullets would be my current one. Then a few months ago, I started volunteering and I new I needed to edit it down even more if I wanted to fit the important stuff from the volunteer role into my resume. Keeping those things in mind, I was able to do a few major edits and keep the important information intact.

  12. Katie the Fed*

    I just had to tell you guys a little story:

    A few years ago I was on a hiring panel. We interviewed one of the most smug, pompous human beings I’ve ever encountered in my life (and in DC that’s saying a lot).
    – Every example he told was something like “My boss wanted to X. I thought Y was a better way and did it that way. It worked and I was vindicated!” He used the word “vindicated” at least 5 times.
    – He interrupted me when I was asking him the third question on the list. We tell people “we’re going to ask you 5 questions, and then you’ll get a chance to ask us some.” So I’m asking my question, and he interrupts me (HULK SMASH!!!) mid-sentence and says “whoa, when do I get the chance to ask you guys some questions, hur hur?” Ugh

    So, I happened to walk by a hallway the other day, and I hear someone saying “miss! miss!” I ignore it because I don’t realize the person is talking to me, and I’m not, you know, a waitress dealing with customers. I realize finally the person is talking to me, and it’s this asshat. “Miss! Can you help me find ___?”

    Ugh. I’m a 34 year old professional at my office job, FFS. Learn how to address people properly. And this guy needs to get a clue.

    Pointless story. Just felt like sharing.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        he already worked in the bigger organization (it was an internal hire) so he’s in the building. I get the sense nobody can stand him so he floats from job to job.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          It makes me so rage-y when I hear about useless suckholes of productivity people being dumped onto other departments like that. It happened to me once as a contractor, and we had people in the client office exactly like that, too.

          1. Mouse of Evil*

            In my very first job out of college, a job opened up in another department that I would have been perfect for. I was doing data entry at the time, and the other job was editorial and called for a bachelor’s degree. It ended up going to another person in my department who didn’t have a degree and didn’t have any editorial experience (which I did). Later I found out that my boss’s boss wanted to get rid of that person, so worked out a deal with the hiring manager.

            I don’t know that I would have gotten the job; my interview wasn’t great (it was only my second interview for a job that didn’t require answering a phone or manning a cash register) and I’m sure the job attracted some really excellent candidates. But I know I was more qualified than the person who got it. In a way I suppose it was good to get over the idea that hiring practices are inherently fair that early in my career. :-)

    2. Stephanie*

      We interviewed one of the most smug, pompous human beings I’ve ever encountered in my life (and in DC that’s saying a lot).

      Bwhahaha.

    3. hildi*

      Sometimes I wish we could see videos of these interviews/incidences, etc. because I feel like I’m reading about Sasquatch – “that can’t be real, can it?!?!” Always entertaining to read about.

    4. StudentA*

      He does sound pompous indeed. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone calling someone in their 30’s “Miss”. He probably thought he was being polite.

      1. nep*

        I’m not getting what’s wrong with trying to get a woman’s attention by saying ‘Miss’. What would be preferable? ‘Ma’am’ or ‘Madam’, perhaps. Or a simple ‘Excuse me’ ?

        1. nep*

          (Not arguing there — just curious as to what people think. The ‘Miss’ thing does not come across as offensive or unprofessional to me.)

        2. Adam*

          I say “Excuse me, miss.” or “Pardon me, miss” all the time. Perhaps it was the tone in which he said it?

            1. Adam*

              I can’t recall a time where I have because I know their names and use that instead. When I use miss it’s always out in public.

        3. Katie the Fed*

          It comes across condescending and very unprofessional. I’m an adult woman, and a leader in my organization, which is very rank conscious. “Miss” is for children or young women. Talking to me like you’re summoning your waitress or talking to a teenager customer at Claire’s is inappropriate. I’m not a miss.

          We work with a lot of military and I’m used to “ma’am” and it doesn’t bother me. That’s a term of respect. Miss is not. Or you could just say “Excuse me”

          1. Katie the Fed*

            I will add though that this might be normal other places. It may have just stuck in my craw because 1) I think he’s awful 2) it’s already hard enough for women to get taken seriously in my organization, especially at senior levels and 3) I think he’s awful.

            BUT, I will maintain it’s not the best word to use in a professional setting. It’s kind of like “young lady.” Implies submissiveness.

            Also, I think he’s awful.

            2. Gwen*

              Agreed on the submissiveness. I’ve been called “ma’am” by service employees (retail, waitstaff) since before I was 18. It’s the accepted polite form of address for a woman; I’m only 25 and I would find it very strange and condescending to be called “miss” by…anyone except like, my grandpa maybe

            3. OhNo*

              Nicely put. I was trying to figure out what was bothering me, and you nailed it. It definitely implies that “I am older/more important and you are less than me” vibe.

          2. Cajun2Core*

            A large number of people consider “ma’am” to be very rude. I believe I have even seen that discussion on this website. That really just leaves the general “excuse me” then. For a man, I would definitely say “Sir” so I can see how you would not like “Miss”. I work on a college campus so I do use “Miss” occasionally to get the attention of a student. I would think in that case, it would be appropriate.

            1. Katie the Fed*

              I don’t mind Ma’am because I work with military and it’s the equivalent of “sir” and what you would call a senior officer. It always feels a bit silly, but it doesn’t seem rude.

        4. NJ anon*

          I’d go with “excuse me.” If she were a man, would he say “mister, mister?”
          Maybe he would but it sounds weird to me.

            2. Aunt Vixen*

              Right.

              In–I would have said in the United States, but apparently it’s just in a lot of parts of the United States–“miss” on its own, without a name, is a form of address to a person in a service position (waitress, cashier, flight attendant, etc.). It is not the feminine equivalent of “sir” (the way it was and may still be in British schools, for example, where teachers are called “Miss” and “Sir” in the second and sometimes also the third person). I wouldn’t say it’s actively disrespectful, but I absolutely agree that it implies a degree of above-ness on the part of the speaker. If you’re speaking to a woman whose name you don’t know, even if your ranks are equal, you want “ma’am”.

              I happen also to think that “Miss” with a name is no longer a valid honorific except in social situations for girls under 18. Young women with jobs and all grown women should get “Ms.” But I know we’re still working on that one.

              1. Anonsie*

                Agreed.

                An exception, though, is that in some areas it’s normal for a younger person to call woman who are older than them “miss” or “miss [name]” as a way of being polite in casual settings. We always said “miss” to get the teacher’s attention, for example, regardless of age. Sometimes it even replaces their name. “Miss? Miss Park? When is this due?” “I can’t figure out this problem, Miss.”

              2. fposte*

                As an American, I find that British schoolchild third-person usage just hilarious. “Miss said …” Wha??

                And I’m with you on the rest of it.

        5. galfromaway*

          I’d prefer a general “Excuse me” than to be called “miss” or “ma’am.” I feel like I’m too “old” and professional to be called “miss,” and I’m too young to be called “ma’am.” ;)

        6. Waiting Patiently*

          There is just something about being called Miss. It really grates me.
          Either find out my name, especially if I have met you on more than one occasion or just say excuse me? A few middle school students have done this to me. ‘I have taken the time to get to know your name -learn mine.’

        7. TL -*

          It would bother me because where I grew up, saying, “Miss! MISS” in a super whiny tone was how a lot of the boys (mostly) would get the attention/protest the actions of a female teacher. “But miss!” was also common.

          And I think it’s much more polite to get someone’s attention with “Excuse me, ma’am?” (And I should know, because I apparently have one of those faces and am stopped at least once a week by random strangers to be asked for directions.)

      2. Rat Racer*

        Vindicated? Vindicated?!! I can’t think of a worse approach to answering interview questions – implying that you and your boss were at war and you won. Gah. I come from organizations that emphasize (over-emphasize) collaboration, and this just makes my skin crawl…

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Exactly! He left the room and we were all like “whoa.” Who wants someone who is guaranteed to not follow direction and be combative with his boss?

        2. Windchime*

          A person who would use “vindicated” in an interview answer would be the same type of person who would use the word “confrontation” when they really mean “conversation”.

      3. B*

        I’m in my (late!) 30s and would have been pissed off at someone calling me Miss from at least a decade ago. ‘Excuse me’ is perfect for this situation. Even ‘excuse me miss’ would have been better!

        1. nep*

          I get that. I think the simple ‘Excuse me’ works best, in any case.
          Seems to me that the use of ‘Miss’ is perceived differently in different settings / cultures. ‘Excuse me’ avoids any problems there.

    5. Golden Yeti*

      Yeah, repeatedly saying “vindicated” makes it sound like his entire goal at work was to always be proven right.

      Gag.

    7. Mister Pickle*

      I would almost swear that I used to work with this guy about 9 years ago, just based on your description. I’m not trying to be cute. It’s like, if you were writing a short story and you were describing the main character – it would be this guy. If he’s a large gentleman from Texas – you have my sincerest sympathies.

    8. Gene*

      “Miss! Can you help me find ___?”

      I would likely send the a3hat to the main receptionist for dierections.

    9. HR Manager*

      He sounds completely obnoxious – I would sneak out if I saw him coming.

      But is ‘miss’ that offensive? I miss the days people call me that. These days I’m getting ma’am (normally from co-ops) and it makes me cringe. Ugh – ma’am is the lady with the glasses on the chain around her neck and sitting in the rocking chair.

    11. Anon1234*

      How are you supposed to address strangers? “Hey lady!”? I usually just approach people without being creepy and say “excuse me”, but if you’re doing what he did (which is rude) then what’s the alternative?

  13. Allison Mary*

    When you’re writing a cover letter, and you not only know who the hiring manager is, but you’ve also previously exchanged several emails back and forth, as well as met in person at a recruiting event… is it still protocol to address the cover letter with “Dear Ms. Smith” rather than the “Hi Jane,” that you’ve used in several previous emails? I’m assuming the answer is probably yes, but just wanted to hear a confirmation from others. And if so, why is that exactly?

    1. Mallorie, the recruiter*

      Were you addressing them by first name in the email exchange? Did they introduce themselves by first name at the event? I’d go with that. The Mr./Mrs. thing is weird to me in the work place; I could be wrong, but I feel like very few places actually do this! I work for a large corporate bank, and I called our new CHRO by her first name upon meeting her and it wasn’t weird at all.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “Hi Jane” is fine. Many people do that on cover letters these days even when they don’t know the hiring manager; it’s absolutely fine when you do.

    3. Allison Mary*

      Oops, I just realized I slightly misspoke. In most of these cases, these cover letters are going to recruiters in HR first – I’m fairly certain that the contact info I have is not for the actual hiring managers. These are applications through a college career portal, and most of them have a “contact person” listed for the internships and jobs available. That contact person is most likely a recruiter in most cases, and I know for sure that the ones I have had contact with are recruiters.

      Does the same answer still apply? Still appropriate to use “Hi Jane” even when you haven’t previously had contact?

      Thanks for the help, all! :)

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Personally, I’m totally fine with “Hi Alison” from strangers and lots of job applicants use it, but since there are still some old schoolers out there who don’t like it, play it safe and go with “Dear X.”

  14. NotMyRealName*

    Next month I’m headed to a professional conference in Portland OR and I need some help figuring out what to pack (I’m a woman by the way). Our office is more casual than business casual. (Jeans are pretty standard attire, many of the staff wear flip flops during the summer, I tend to wear steel toed boots) The conference is a mix of academia and industry (it’s the Entomological Society of America annual meeting, if that helps).

    1. C Average*

      Sounds fun! When I was a kid, I totally wanted to be an entomologist . . . until I learned that I’d have to KILL my beloved insects in order to study them. Total deal-breaker.

      So, Portland in November. I’ve lived in Portland for over a decade and can make a few recommendations.

      1. Don’t wear anything that you wouldn’t want to get wet. You’ll be here in the rainy season, when it’s entirely possible to get drenched walking a block. Bring a raincoat and/or umbrella, and avoid anything that feels or smells gross when wet. Rain boots or other water-resistant footwear would be a good call, too.

      2. Pack for variable weather. Some days it can be really beautiful and quite warm that time of year; other times it’s chilly. Sometimes it’s both within a 24-hour period. (As we like to say, “Don’t like the weather? Wait ten minutes.”) Layers are good.

      3. People here kinda do their own thing. There isn’t a go-to look. You’ll see plenty of hipsters, professionals, and normal people. Wear what makes you comfortable. Jeans are fine, as are slacks, khakis, etc. There isn’t a wrong way to dress here!

      Have fun!

    2. J.B.*

      Knowing scientists, I would say khakis and polos would be dressed up. Casual dresses would be fancy :)

      1. NotMyRealName*

        From what I remember from my student days (many moons ago) we made something of an effort for this conference. But then again, they did a couple of promo videos for this one of “The Most Interesting Entomologist in the World” with the tag line, “Stay Buggy my friends.”

      2. Melissa*

        And Birkenstocks! Don’t forget the Birkenstocks.

        Seriously, when I was in grad school we used to joke about how many senior scientists would wear Birkenstocks and similar sandals to conferences.

    3. fposte*

      I think a conference like that isn’t likely to have something that could be considered a dress standard–it’ll be all over the map. I would probably go for something more like khakis than jeans to bump things up a little bit without overdoing it, but I doubt you’d be totally out of place in anything save for the flip-flops, which would be a mistake in Portland in November.

    4. matcha123*

      I would keep things simple. I don’t know how long your conference is going to be, but if it’s a few days, I would bring two bottoms (one for work, one for play/just in case) and maybe 3 – 4 shirts that would look reasonably well.

      After living overseas, I’ve discovered just how much Americans pack. Don’t be afraid to use a washing machine if your hotel has one, and don’t be afraid to wear the same shirt or pants twice!
      A laundry bag can help keep delicate clothes from being stretched in a washing machine and you can hang dry them in your room if you prefer. I find ballet-style flats to be shoes that can be “formal” or “casual” depending on what the rest of your outfit looks like :)

      Layers are great. If you’re not from a cool region, you’ll probably be cold outside and boiling inside a building. Basic colors for everything. And all that space in your luggage that you saved can now be filled with souvenirs and such!

      1. Simonthegrey*

        When I went overseas for my study abroad, I took three pairs of pants, about 5 shirts and one heavier sweater, and then underwear, socks, etc. I was there for 3 months. I got very bored of my clothing, but also, nobody really cared. I bought a bunch of scarves and use those to dress up or dress down what I wore. It was crazy how many people on my program packed these huge bags!

        1. Evan*

          That sounds about like what I took to my first semester of college. I was here in the US, but halfway across the country from home, so that was what I wore until I went back home for Thanksgiving!

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      If you are just attending a conference and not particularly looking to network, I would say to wear neat casual clothes (non-ratty jeans and a hawaiian shirt, or your standard business wear); presenting, exhibiting, or networking, I’d say wear business casual.

    6. nep*

      Not really what you were after, but — A rain jacket and an umbrella.
      Was in Portland only once and fell in love with that city. But I gather it’s good to have rain gear handy.

    7. Nanc*

      Portland is fabulous in November! Layers are good. You’ll never look out of place in khakis. Walking shoes, if your conference is downtown–so easy to walk everywhere and public transportation is good. A nice hat if it’s raining. If you need something to do in free time and are a museum nerd the Portland Art Museum and Oregon History Museum are both fantastic and within walking distance of each other. I think the Hop On/Hop Off Pink Trolley tour shuts down at the end of October which is too bad as it’s a fun way to see the city. Watch out for Wesen!

      1. Gene*

        Voodoo Doughnuts and Powell’s Books. If you like Germn deli or have a hankering for some Hanuta, Edelweiss

        Layers are a good idea. While unusual in November, there is the possibility of snow/ice storm.

    8. periwinkle*

      When I attend conferences, I try to keep it mix-and-match. A couple weeks ago I was at a week-long program in a business-casual setting (as are most conferences) and here’s what I packed: Navy trousers; two lightweight t-shirts in jewel tones; two elbow-sleeve cardigans; undergarments and pajamas. All of that fit into my Tumi checkpoint-friendly backpack, along with a laptop and accessories. On the plane I wore navy trousers, t-shirt, cardigan, and pashima scarf. One pair of checkpoint-friendly shoes (none in the bag). I’ve got another week-long session later this month and will take the same assortment. For summer conferences, I pack sleeveless dresses plus cardigans.

      Cardigans are your friend. Conference rooms are often icy-cold, and then you walk into a warm stuffy hotel corridor, cool elevator, overheated hotel room..

      Bring cardigans.

      1. Melissa*

        Seconded on the cardigans, and wear something underneath that you can wear alone without the cardigan. Conference hotels are the most inconsistently heated/air-conditioned places on Earth.

        1. hermit crab*

          Ugh yes. I went to a conference about super-technical energy/climate change stuff a few months ago and the main conference room was still alternately freezing and sweltering for the entire week. Why haven’t we (as a society) figured this out yet?

    10. Melissa*

      I’m in academia and I wear business casual to conferences – slacks and a button up, sweater, or shirt + cardigan depending on the weather. Sometimes nice khakis on the days I’m not presenting. I’m usually one of the more dressed-up ones at most conferences, lol. I’m more junior in the field anyway and the junior folks are always more dressed up than the senior scientists, who come wearing any old thing.

      Oh, and wear comfortable shoes. Even small conference hotels become a pain to walk around in heels, ugh. I have a collection of dressy flats I can wear now, especially when presenting.

    11. Artemesia*

      I’d wear business casual like cords/turtlenecks/jackets — tweed jackets or cord or whatever you have that goes with slacks or cords. Nice jeans with jacket also works fine although I’d probably go with slacks or cords or at least dark black jeans for a professional setting like this. For the top layer, in the Pacific Northwest the best top coat is a mid weight raincoat e.g. a trench with removable lining or similar. It usually doesn’t so much pour as drizzle and mist constantly. The typical coat is a rain trench.

  15. Gwen*

    Just sort of a complaint about the “my gold shoes are too tight” problems that come with doing work you are personally passionate about. For work, I write about chocolate teapots. I honestly love chocolate teapots, and on my personal blog (which is “clean” & linked to my professional social media self), I’d like to talk about how much I love the new raspberry-swirl chocolate teapot or why Wakeen’s is my favorite teapot company, but I’m worried that it will come off like I’m shilling for my work when it really is my personal opinion. On the flipside, if I have a bad experience with a teapot melting, I feel like I can’t say that in my “personal space” because my company might work with that manufacturer.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I totally get it. I have a lot I’d love to say on a blog about (insert politically charged topic related to my branch of advertising here) that I don’t dare to do because I’m afraid it could look like my clients put me up to it. I don’t want my clients getting in trouble for my firebrand opinions, so I keep my mouth shut.

  16. J.B.*

    What questions can you ask in an interview to get to know a hiring manager’s working style better? I have had interviews and this is a pretty small field so I generally know the general details on the organization. The working style and priorities of those around me would be really important to me. I’m not sure how to best ask those.

    1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      You could ask them to walk you through a delegation. Like, ask them to think of a project they would delegate to you, and ask them how they would communicate that project. Do they shoot you an email? Do they sit down and meet with you for a half hour? Finding out more about the process they use should not only give you a glimpse of that style, as well as give you the opportunity to ask questions to get more specifics (“what if I was really unclear on the project after the email? Would you expect me to schedule a meeting? Would you just want a reply on the email?”)

      1. Artemesia*

        My happiest work experience was the ten years I worked with an amazing boss who valued me for being a straight talker in a world of tactful people since I steered him out of the way of heavy traffic several times because I knew the organization and he was new to it. I was the go to ‘s^&* detector’ on his staff.

        So I would be inclined to want to ask something like ‘tell me about some of the things you would hope your ideal hire in this position would do for you and for the organization’ or ‘what particular value do you hope this hire will add beyond their skill at crafting teapots?’

        It might be illuminating to ask something like ‘Can you tell me about the last time there was a deadline crunch and how that happened and got handled.’

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You’ll get some interesting insight from “what kind of person works really well with you? what kind of person doesn’t mesh as well with your management style?”

    4. Trixie*

      I suppose it could be a reverse, “How would you handle X if this happened? Or what would you say to employee Y if this happened?” Tough part is whether hypotheticals would be consistent with their actual behavior. Looking back to my previous managers, you learn so much in retrospect. I’m not sure I would have rooted out particulars if I’d asked these questions early on.

    5. INTP*

      Usually they ask you to describe your ideal manager at some point. During the question phase, you can refer to that and ask them to describe their ideal subordinate or their general management style. (I wouldn’t do it before the end of the interview because it can come across like you’re trying to figure out what they want you to say so that you can tailor your answers.)

    6. Graciosa*

      What are your biggest priorities for the department and the team?

      This can tell you a lot. I have a colleague who would answer this very differently from the way I would, and those differences are absolutely reflective of our different management styles.

  17. looksandbooks*

    I found out that my manager lied to me about a job I was in the running for. I was already distrustful of the manager but this really just hurt. It just sucks that a manager would deliberately lie to help one person over another, when both employees report to said manager.

  18. Katie the Fed*

    Another note this week:
    I have an employee who is constantly screwing up the administrative, non-technical aspects of his job. Like submitting timesheets accurately and on time, booking travel correctly, submitting vouchers, etc. All of that bureaucratic stuff (we’re bureaucrats!) he’s just lazy and terrible at. He doesn’t even make an effort – he just waits for things to get to the crisis point and makes a big huffy complaint about fixing it.

    I’m going to be taking formal disciplinary action at this point, which I hate because substantively he’s really good at his job, but this stuff creates so many problems and it’s just unacceptable.

    Sigh. It’s always something. I feel like I play whack-a-mole as a manager. Someone is always driving me nuts :)

    1. hildi*

      I don’t know if this comparison bothers anyone, but I often compare supervising to parenting. Employees tattle on each other; they play childlike dramatic games with everyone, etc. And parenting is constantly about course-correction and figuratively thumping people on the skulls on a routine basis. As counterintuitive as it seems: I think you’re doing something right if you feel like you’re constantly handling something like that. Meaning you’re an engaged, hands-on manager.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Excellent point, hildi. As a parent I constantly nag…er, remind my daughter to do certain things, and only occasionally do I have to mention that if I have to remind her again, she will lose X privilege. Constant course correction or monitoring is not a bad thing if done calmly and dispassionately, because those who need it may wind up in much bigger trouble if left to their own devices.

        But I feel for you, Katie. The reason I moved from a supervisory position into a more technical one is that I was kind of stuck after saying “you need to be here on time” a couple of times…after that, do I fire them? Am I allowed to? How do I tell them to “be on time or you’re fired” without being a jerk about it? I really didn’t know how to deal with people who can’t or won’t take responsibility. I probably could do it now, but I’m still not sure I’d want to.

        1. hildi*

          I owe my philosophy on this to Bruce Tulgan (http://rainmakerthinking.com/) and his emphasis on It’s Ok to Be the Boss.

          Much like parenting, I think supervising is constantly coaching and being hands on and staying engaged. If you do that you realize either the person needed it and is on the right course with more than some other needs, or truly just cannot hack it and needs to be fired (lucky you can do that with employees; don’t know what you do with kids in that boat!).

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Oh man, I’ve seen a lot of good, smart workers in the government run into serious roadblocks when it comes to the paperwork. Hopefully getting formal will make him realize he just has to suck it up and do it by the book!

    4. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I think it’s really important for you to go into this process really clear on what the ultimate disciplinary action you are willing to take is. At my last job, I was an admin and has constant trouble with this one employee because she never submitted her expenses on time, which meant that my reconciliation process took longer. But my boss wasn’t going to fire her over something like that, and she knew it, and she used that to skate by through multiple warnings (that were empty warnings) without making any positive change. It wasn’t until there was an actual consequence that my boss was willing to commit to that anything changed (in this case, it just impacted her raise at the end of the year… if she would have gotten $3K, she was threatened with getting $2K instead if the problem continued). Once there was a real consequence that was in line with the problem, she buckled down and created a system she could stick to.

    5. Rat Racer*

      As someone who is a natural at screwing up mundane administrative tasks, I’ll share with you what a previous manager shared with me early in my career. Perhaps this will resonate with your employee: “I know these tasks are mundane and don’t require any intellectual rigor. However, when you demonstrate incompetence at the little stuff, leadership will never trust you to manage the big stuff.”

      I’m not saying you should do this in lieu of disciplinary action though.

      1. Frances*

        That’s a really good piece of advice. And I wish I could forward it to several of my old colleagues in academia.

      2. OfficePrincess*

        Thank you so much for sharing this nugget. It is perfect for the person on my team who has gotten the “you need to pay attention to the details” chat twice this week. She thinks she’s fantastic regardless of what my boss, HR, and it discuss with her and has asked about promotions in the past, but honestly, I can’t trust her to put the chocolate teapot order with the chocolate teapot receipt instead of with the vanilla coffee pot requests, so there’s no way we’re putting her in a leadership role for it.

        1. Artemesia*

          Well the obvious thing to do is next time she mentions a promotion say ‘When we can’t trust you to get the small things right (site 3 examples) we don’t feel you are ready for more responsibility.’ period. not another word.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        A very nice way of saying “you’re going no where fast”.

        I feel that every job has an aspect that is distasteful. It’s to be expected, we don’t get to cherry pick which parts of our jobs we do and which parts we don’t. If a job requires A, B and C and I routinely skip C or mash it up badly, I would not expect to keep my job.
        Unfortunately, it is not always clear cut when an employee excels at A and B. It makes it harder to tell them to leave. One thing that may work is telling him that he does do well with the other parts so you have every reason to believe he will master this part, also. I think if you let him know it’s not optional but it is absolutely critical that this paper work be on time and be correct, you may be able to get some changes.

        My husband was a huge techie type person. He did not do paperwork quickly. At all. It was a belabored and torturous road for him. One day I sat down with him and helped streamline is paper work. I knew a few Excel tricks, I also made master copies of some forms already filled out with the basic info, and so on. I am not suggesting you streamline the process for him- no, no. I am suggesting that maybe if you get him thinking about how he could make the process easier for himself every week, it would not be such a hardship to be on time and be correctly done.

  19. hildi*

    What age and/or type of experience do you think would make a contract speaker or independent training consultant credible? I feel like that’s a direction I’d like to move someday, but I feel like I need to stay in place and “season” for a while longer. I just turned 34, and I honestly don’t know if I’m that credible yet to strike out on my own. Of course I think my 13 years in the workforce is a lot (to me!), but I definitely understand it’s peanuts in context.

    As far as background, I have only been in the military for 4.5 years and now this current position. I don’t know if having a wide and varied background is more desirable to organizations looking to bring in someone for training? I don’t have a motivating life story; I have not made crazy decisions where I learned something from them. I’m a squeaky clean person that has mostly been lucky to achieve what I have. So I’m not a motivational speaker and wouldn’t plan to advertise myself as such.

    What I am good at is I know people. And I know how to communicate with people. So I think that would be my niche. But….would anyone listen to me? They do now because I work for a training organization so I’m their best option.

    Guess my question is: when you bring in a speaker/trainer/consultant – what are you really paying them for? What do they offer that is worth for you to pay them?

    This has been on my mind a lot; don’t know if there’s much of an answer anyone can give, but it helps for me to put it out in the universe, I think.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Personally, I care a lot more about them being awesome at speaking/training in the topic they’re working in than about any particular age or experience. I mean, they have to have enough experience to make them credible, but 13 years certainly takes care of that. After that, I’m looking for them to be engaging, useful, etc.

      1. hildi*

        Thanks for the perspective. And I would agree with you, as well, on the age doesn’t matter thing. So my next thought on that is how subject someone being awesome is. What’s aweseome for me is if someone makes me laugh and gives me new perspective. But I’ve encountered people that would say an awesome speaker is about giving me a practical tool. Then I know some people think a great speaker is someone that is casual and comfortable and real; but some prefer someone that is *really* polished. And then my answer in my head to all of that is, ‘well, can’t please everyone.’ Which I already know?!? So what am I so hung up on?

        Ok – let me throw this out there: Is there something common that happens to people around the 7 or 8 year mark in their position where they start to get cagey? Because I am literally at 8 years in my job tomorrow and I have been really restless for about a year. But I have been doing this long enough and it’s a good job for me now that I don’t want to jump ship for the unknown. What the hell is wrong with me!?!? This is not who I am to doubt my next moves so much.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I think you can’t be everything to everybody, and the most important thing is to figure out what YOU are great at as a trainer — are you super polished? Are you more comfortable/real? Funny? Whatever it is, some people will love it and hire you for that reason and it won’t be others’ cup of tea. And that’s totally okay and as it should be. I realized this when I started consulting — you want to be who you are and what you’re good at being, and let people self-select out of being your clients if it’s not right for them.

          1. hildi*

            Perfect, thank you. This confirms what I have always thought in the end, but….I overthink things. Clearly :) I think I have been successful here in my job because my style is pretty solid and I am exactly who I am. For the first couple years I tried to do things that my more senior coworker did in her trainings and I sucked. Once I stopped doing that and just did what came naturally did things click into place.

            I’m also slowly trying to wrap my mind around the idea that I, on my own (not as part of my organization), would be worth someone paying me to share my ideas/thoughts. I suppose I should start reading about stuff like that: self-marketing; self-promotion. I think it’s probably a hurdle that a lot of people have to overcome. I know that I have some skills that not everyone has….but enough to pay me? I guess they do now in my job, so what’s the difference. Did you have any blogs or books or sites you looked at as you made the transition to a consultant?

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I found a couple of good sites for freelancers about the mechanics of freelancing (billing, contracts, dealing with clients; here’s an example of an article from one that I liked) — sort of the business side of things that wasn’t specific to any particular type of consulting/freelancing. “The Wealthy Freelancer” is a great book that you should check out too.

              But yeah, by far the biggest hurdle is becoming comfortable with the idea that people should and would pay you. That took me probably 2 years to totally overcome in my head.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think you need two things to be a compelling speaker: good information and the right delivery. Sure, it’s not that simple, but if you can demonstrate a good grasp of the subject (or, heck, any subject that might be timely or new), you’ve demonstrated that you can assimilate and deliver new information. And as for delivery, that’s pretty much evident when you meet a client or go for an interview. You don’t have to always be “on”, but you should have the same kind of energy you’d have while giving a talk, and listening to you should be engaging to the listener. No long, awkward silences or mumbling. :)

      Really, experience is great, but I think that in training (which I have done a lot of) and public speaking (which I have done but prefer to avoid), it’s much easier to assess someone’s abilities on the spot, it usually doesn’t require a lot of technical detail or historical knowledge. It’s not like, say, programming, where you absolutely have to be familiar with specific techniques and technologies in order to be qualified.

      1. hildi*

        Thanks for weighing in, Cosmic Avenger!

        I’m curious what the difference for you is between training and public speaking? Purely curious. I sometimes think of training as public speaking, but when I’m in a class I tend to treat it just like we’re a bunch of colleagues that all have something to contribute and learn from together. Versus public speaking in my mind might be more of a keynote address or something that’s more information out/motivation/inspirationa/and very little interaction with the audience. Just wondered if that’s what you had in mind, too.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Very much so.

          Trainings can be small groups or even one-on-one, which changes the dynamic even when the material is exactly the same. Training usually requires more give-and-take, at least for me. I pace my training and modify what I cover and how intensively based on feedback from the participants. Much of it has been computer training, so it’s often having the participants practice the steps after I explain/demonstrate something.

          Public speaking is usually much more like a lecture, but without questions from the class. You should have a whole story to tell instead of a bullet list of skills/topics to impart, and while you can adapt it as you go, there usually isn’t as much feedback as with trainings.

          At least, that’s my take on it. :)

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      Just answering one little part of your question: I’m 53, and I’d have no problems listening to and learning from someone who is 34, or even 24. If you have knowledge that I can use and can present it well, you are worth listening to.

      1. hildi*

        Thanks, ThursdaysGeek! I don’t actually know where I got it into my head that I had to be older to do something like that. I suppose because all of the consultants we bring in are typically older than me. So that was flawed thinking. Also, I have plenty of internal agencies “hire” me to do special requests in my current job so it must be more of a case of your last sentence :) I just need to stop overanalyzing certain things :)

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Likewise for me. I don’t care about a speaker’s age. I am all about content. Do you make me think? Do you shake up my thought process so that I am looking at things from a fresh angle? Perhaps you are expanding on things that I have heard of but only in passing.

        Speakers also get my attention when they answer FAQs without being asked. In other words, they lay a foundation for what they are going to speak on. A while ago, I went to see a speaker talking about cloud storage. One of the first things he did was hold up a black box. “This is a cloud.” This drew almost everyone in the room into his discussion because everyone had a clear idea of what he was talking about. I never thought about how old he was, I was too interested in his explanations.

    4. Pepper Pot*

      I became a corporate training consultant at age 32, after 4 years with a training company and another 4-5 years prior to that in a more peripheral education/training job (and an MA in education). I loved it! Clients rarely asked to see my credentials or resume, although they were welcome to it, but they generally wanted someone experienced to assess their need, suggest a course or design/tweak a new one, facilitate it according to the best adult learning practices, and give their employees a great training experience. All things you are likely to be doing daily now if you work for a training company. I offered additional services like creating custom Office documents, offering mentoring/training to their new trainer, scheduling monthly on-site days where I did one-on-one training for their employees at their desks, writing how-to guides, etc., and one of the things that worked out particularly well for me was being able to continue to do contract work for the training company I left. We parted on great terms and I had done some specialty classes for them they couldn’t easily re-fill, so it was a great way for me to build up some quick income while I searched for more clients.

      It’s not all easy – working for yourself brings in accounting and salesmanship and other things you may or may not enjoy, and the income can fluctuate, which takes planning, but I really loved the ability to do the kinds of training that I enjoyed the best and having the freedom, if it was financially responsible, to say no to projects that weren’t a good fit. My consulting career ended after 5 years, to my surprise, by being hired full-time by one of my clients, not for training but in an operational role. I loved the company and everything they stood for, one of my longest-term clients had just made a major budget cut to my funding, and I discovered I was more interested in practicing some of what I had been training and developing as a manager than continuing to seek out new clients. I’ve been with that company 4 years now and was just promoted last week, so it’s been a good thing for me, but I’m extremely glad I took the path I did.

      ALL of that to say – go for it! If the financial side can be worked out reliably enough for your budget, it sounds like you’re mentally ready to look at changing it up and growing in a new direction.

  20. MaybeTechEditor*

    Has anyone here successfully transitioned from a having a hands-on science background to technical writing and editing? It’s something I’m considering: I currently work as a freelance language editor of academic manuscripts, having finished my PhD last year. Any tips on interviewing for such positions? I’m mainly looking at grad tech author positions at software companies. Thanks!

    1. hermit crab*

      I don’t, but I would be really interested in hearing the answers as well! How did you get into the freelance work?

      1. MaybeTechEditor*

        I started the freelancing through a speculative application (very short CV and email) to a guy who’d just started his own company. He’d contacted some student friends of mine, so I knew he was looking for editors. I had to edit a test paper.

        English language editing of academic papers is a growing market at the moment. There are lots of folks like my boss setting themselves up, but some of the major publishers dabble too.

    2. Emily*

      I don’t have any advice (sorry!), but I would also like to hear about anyone making this kind of transition. I just started a Ph.D. in a hard science field, but want to keep technical writing as a fallback (I did a little bit of it in my year between undergraduate and graduate school) if I don’t end up liking what I’m doing now.

  21. Lily in NYC*

    OK, this is related to a thread from a few days ago. I threw up at work this morning! Totally mortifying; I had to run down the hall with my garbage can because I knew I wouldn’t make it to the bathroom in time. But I am not going to sit at my desk and subject my coworkers to my barfiness. I took a cab home ($80, holy crap!) and am sitting in my jammies working from home for the rest of the day. Have a great weekend everyone.

    2. brightstar*

      I hope you feel better!

      I missed commenting on that thread because I was home sick with a stomach virus and slept until 1 p.m. (can’t remember the last time I did that).

  22. JMegan*

    I have a new job! I posted about it a few weeks ago – it’s an interesting and challenging position in my field, an organization I would love to work for, permanent/full time, good salary, and with a manager who seems like a normal human being with actual experience in my line of work. It’s pretty much the unicorn.

    Last day at CurrentJob is Oct 17, then I have a week off before starting Awesome NewJob. And I have just hit Send on my resignation email, so it’s all official now. All I have to do now is figure out how to stay motivated for the next couple of weeks here!

    2. JMegan*

      Sorry, replying to myself here. I might be a little excited. :) Just confirmed the salary with HR, and it’s $15K more than what I’m currently making…yeah, that’ll do!

      Also, literally within ten minutes of getting the verbal offer on Monday, I got an email from my lawyer saying that my divorce has been finalized. It’s been quite the week!

  23. Lizzy*

    I have been reevaluating my career goals as of late and I am considering switching career paths. I would love to hear some stories about people who switched career paths at least 5 years (if not more) into their careers, post-college, and what the transition was like.

    1. B*

      Me too!! I’m taking voluntary redundancy in march (pause to wibble in abject terror) because my current job will soon be very unstable and i want to change career paths, from 15 years in admin/secretarial/PA posts to being a public health practitioner.love to hear stories of people who’ve successfully made huge transitions.

      2. Nurse-To-Be*

        I’m not quite at the ‘successful’ (aka finished!) stage yet, but I just started nursing school last month after spending 20 years in the hospitality and adventure tourism field. I loved what I was doing in tourism, but after 20 years I needed a massive change. Nursing had NEVER occurred to me – I quite literally woke up one day, thought….nursing, and that was it. It’s the exact thing I’ve always wanted to do….I just never knew it!

        It’s a long haul, at least 4 1/2 years full-time before I graduate with my BScN/RN designation (I’m in Canada), but so far it’s been amazing. It was hard getting into the program (it’s ultra-competitive and has extremely high admission averages), so I had to go back to high school and re-do biology and chemistry in order to update my knowledge and bring my overall average up. It’s been a lot of work so far, far more than I ever expected – my entire life is now school, working part-time about 15 hours/week, and studying the rest of the time.

        I haven’t had one moment of doubt or regret about making this change, even though I’ll be 48 by the time I completely finish my degree. It’s going to be a tough few years, but it will be worth it. Plus, I’m really lucky to have a lot of support from family and friends, otherwise I wouldn’t make it.

        A huge change when you’re an ‘older’ (I’m definitely older, but not so sure about mature! :) )student is incredibly tough, but it’s also incredibly rewarding. Older students have so much life experience that really helps them in school, so even though you may be older than some of the others in your field when you get into it, you’ve still got a whole bag of experiences to bring with you.

        Good luck with your career change!!

    3. Janis*

      Oh dear, I’ve had about a half dozen career path zigs and zags in my life — some not by choice (laid off twice), but some were. I don’t think it’s a problem at all!

      You will be forced to learn so much more than the person who stays in the teapot accounting realm their whole life. I have a friend who’s been in one career for 30 years. Yes, he knows it backwards and forwards, but that’s it. I have been buffeted around by the winds of change many times and can speak pretty comfortably about vaccines and blood safety (one job), will, trusts and beneficiary designations (another job), best ways to engage adults in training classes (yet another) and now process improvement. So maybe the best is yet to come. It sure was with me.

    4. dawnofthenerds*

      This is something I’ve been thinking about too. I just graduated from a master’s program in an obscure highly specialized branch of the Humanities, and wound up in marketing at a local company because there are no jobs in my field (and I would have needed a PhD to get one anyway). It feels really weird, and I don’t know if this ambivalence is going to go away. Though the work is mostly interesting, the coworkers are awesome, and the pay is good. Not too shabby for my first job out of college with a ‘ridiculous’ degree.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      No regrets for the changes that I have made. I feel that education/knowledge is never wasted. Insights from an old job setting can end up being very handy in a new job setting. And I have found common threads in my choices – that took a while for me to understand that, though.

      I find that it was a little choppy starting anything new. There is a whirlwind of information to absorb. Will I ever get through this whirlwind? I found the answer is yes. And the learning curve is not as steep as the first time out. I also totally enjoyed the novelty of doing something different.

    6. KCS*

      I was 9 years post-college when I transitioned careers. Granted, 3 of those years were grad school.

      It was a dramatic change. I had applicable skills and some relevant coursework in grad school, but no direct experience. My first foray into my 2nd career was a very low-paying, low-level job. Basically, I started from the bottom.

      I genuinely believe that my first career gave me a lot of insight I wouldn’t have had if I started my 2nd career immediately after school. In a strange way, my immense dislike of my first career makes me appreciate my 2nd career even more. I’m happier, more fulfilled, and even grateful that I was one of the few people who had the opportunity and means to start a new career.

      One piece of advice – don’t compare yourself. You will see colleagues from your former field rising through the ranks. You will encounter people in your new field who are just a year out of school who are “ahead” of you on the ladder. They may even be your boss. But know this – you had the forsight to reevaluate your career and start a new one. I think it takes strength and bravery to do that. Good luck.

  24. Fawn*

    I’m contract at a medium sized university. This week, a full time permanent job was posted that I’m 100 percent qualified for, in a department that my department works closely with. I’m considering applying, but have no idea whether to disclose this to my manager or not. Any advice on how/when/whether to have this conversation?

    Additional useful facts:
    – manager has hinted that my current job is a good “jumping off” point for other positions
    – been in current role for 1 year, contract has been extended 3 times. Ends in March 2015
    – the next two months are the busiest time for my role
    – if I was offered the new role, I would continue to work closely with my current dept

    1. fposte*

      Presuming a sane manager, I would disclose. I might wait until the interview stage if I had doubts.

      1. Fawn*

        Thanks! Very sane – a great manager and a lovely person, which is part of the reason I want to make sure to do right by her if this is move I’m going to make. I think waiting til the interview stage is a good call, I’m just unsure of how to manage it if word gets out that I’ve applied before they hold interviews. I may just have to gamble with it, I guess.

        1. fposte*

          In that case you could consider talking to the manager when your application goes in. She might even be able to help your candidacy.

    2. Trixie*

      Reading your post it sounds like your manager is pretty encouraging, and sane. I would absolutely bring this up to your manager to discuss, he/she could be very happy to help in any way they could. Especially if its a position that will work closely with dept. And since you’re a contracted position, maybe they just bring in a new LT person through March 2015, who then could also apply for something permanent. This sounds very encouraging!

    3. Red*

      I recommend disclosing, especially if your boss noted that your current contract role is a good jumping off point. I think a lot of normal, rational folk understand that a contractor’s interests lie with stability and pay, and that following those leads isn’t “disloyalty” or anything of the sort. Your manager may be able to give you a good recommendation to the hiring manager, which could help you quite a bit! (Never hurts to “know a guy,” after all.)

    4. ClaireS*

      It’s hard to say without fully understanding your work dynamics. But, in my job it would be Very Strange to apply for an internal position without talking to your manager.

      also, as your contract and this is permanent, a sane manager will be supportive. She may even think it strange if you didn’t apply.

      Good luck!

      1. Fawn*

        You’re totally right – she probably would question why I didn’t apply. I think I’ve realized that I’m over-thinking this!

    5. Agile Phalanges*

      It sounds like you’re leaning toward disclosing at this point, but if you still have any doubt, you might want to check with your HR department. Some organizations require you to disclose, in which case your decision is made, or if there is no policy, they might have a recommendation based on what they know of the dynamics.

    6. INTP*

      I would disclose before formally applying because it’s much better if your manager finds out from you than someone else. Colleagues ask each other about potential employees they’ve worked with, and it seems probable to me that someone would eventually ask your boss about you, possibly before they even choose whether to interview you. Since the departments work closely together, your boss may be close with someone on the interview panel, and “We’re thinking of interviewing Fawn, what do you think of her for the teapot coordinator role?” would be natural chitchat. (I’m just pointing that out because people often seem to think it’s some unethical violation of their privacy when potential employers speak to colleagues who have worked with the candidate before – it’s not.) Also, in many orgs you can’t get hired for an internal position without the signoff of your current manager.

    7. Artemesia*

      Your current manager will be a great help in getting the new position in most cases so it is a matter of judging whether you are dealing with a good person or a loon. If this is an encouraging open helpful person (and they have indicated the job is a good jumping off place) than letting them know may help you land the interview. It is normal for the other manager to inquire before going ahead when the person applying is a known quantity in the organization.

  25. matcha123*

    Wow. I rarely make it here on time.

    What type of advice would you give to someone who is very smart and great at their job (high praise), but is the first on the cutting block for lay-offs or often the victim of bullying (don’t know if this is the best word to use) in the workplace?

    I’m trying to figure out the best way to help someone who is an older worker with few to no friends either at work/in that field or outside and often has personality clashes with other staff (supervisors in particular, which may or may not be due to this person having a masters in, err…teapot issues, while the supervisor does not).

    Personality clashes aren’t due to this person attacking others or not doing their work, but perhaps because they don’t seem very friendly and don’t engage in workplace banter. Attitude is close to: “I am here to do the best job possible and in the most efficient manner. I am a by-the-book person. I prefer rules to be closely or strictly enforced when someone blatantly breaks them.”

    In one instance, this person was given more assignments, but less time to complete them. Possibly put on warning for not completing assignments in a timely manner, despite having a heavier workload and less time to complete assignments compared to other coworkers. Then supervisor decided to tell other staff that this person was verbally disrespectful and used that as an excuse to fire the person. I don’t know what advice to give because sometimes you just have a crappy workplace situation. But this type of “bullying” has occurred three times in a row and is going on at the third place. Any advice?

    1. Gwen*

      Honestly, I find it’s true what they say…if you have the same problem in multiple locations/with different people, then the root of the problem is probably you. I think this person will need to adjust their behavior if they want this pattern to stop. I don’t think it comes as a surprise that someone who is at best unsociable and at worst unpleasant (in the eyes of supervisors) is likely to be on the chopping block. I know there’s been some good AAM advice about “faking” friendliness with coworkers…try to make a little small talk occasionally, say hi and bye, don’t say no to invitations EVERY time. There are some people I work with who I know to be quiet/focused, and there are others who seem prickly/unfriendly. You want to seem like the former.

      1. Frances*

        Yeah, I second this. Something that struck me in your description of the person is that they seem to think relationships with their coworkers and managers are completely separate and distinct from how good someone is at their job — there are plenty of posts here on AAM that show that’s really not true. Perhaps you could help them realize that being truly “great” at a job includes developing collegial working relationships.

        1. matcha123*

          I think this is true. I’ve often thought myself that if I’m great at my job, that’s all that matters. But, fortunately for me, I’ve had coworkers that are relatively easygoing and can somewhat cancel out the poppy ones.

          I think this person would like to have a good relationship with their workmates, but there aren’t many (any?) common areas they can come together over. I don’t think they enjoy the same TV shows as their other coworkers and so even something simple like that is out of the question.

          1. Observer*

            Never mind discussing TV shows. Does she make it her business to greet everyone when she comes in? (I don’t mean running over to each person, but everyone she passes.) Does even go so far as to say “How are you doing?” Maybe a comment on the weather or the commute, etc. Yes, social chitchat does take up a few minutes, but it’s hugely lubricating.

            Also, how is her degree playing out, in terms of her attitude. To take an extreme example, we had one employee who told her boss “Don’t talk to ME that way – I’m more educated that you. I have a degree and you don’t.” (And after that line, she no longer had a job, but her boss did… Despite her being personally far more popular than her boss.) Now, I’m sure your friend is too professional for something like that. But, if her *attitude* is “Don’t tell me about how to improve the teapot lines, because I have a Masters in teapot tech and you are just a manager with a HS diploma.” That’s going to create major issues – and will be a wonderful excuse for getting loaded with extra work.

            Lastly, how is she about sharing and helping others? Are lines like “It’s not my job”, “Why should I help you with abc?”, “If you had done it CORRECTLY” or “You don’t do things correctly, and it’s not my job to make up for that” a regular part of her repertoire? She may see that as being efficient, doing HER job and sticking to the rules. Everyone else is going to see something very, very different.

            I know this may sound like blaming the victim, but when a person sees the same pattern repeating multiple times – 3 times is a lot – it makes sense to look at how the victim is playing into this.

            1. matcha123*

              I think that they try to greet the people that are in the office when they come in, but it sounds like people are in and out of the office and at any given time there may only be one other person there (the dirty admin who has already said that they do not like this person).

              I think they generally try to offer suggestions to improve things and do not talk about their masters. I’m not there so I can’t say anything with 100% certainty. But at one place, they offered to and began work on a foreign language manual to help deal with overseas clients. But, soon after they were given the green light to start the project, it was pulled.

              Of the three jobs I mentioned, two were/are in this person’s field and one was at a call center.

              1. Artemesia*

                I have an advanced degree and almost none of my social contacts are aware of it because I don’t use the title socially and don’t talk about it all the time. Why is this guy EVER mentioning his masters in the workplace? Apparently it doesn’t qualify them for the top job so it is irrelevant. His co-workers should be unaware of it.

                This kind of dynamic happens once — bad luck. Happens 3 times and this guy has a serious problem interacting with other people and needs to work hard on his interpersonal and managing upward skills.

      2. matcha123*

        I think that might be part of the problem, but I haven’t seen this person at work, so I can’t say for sure. They tell me that they do greet co-workers and they did make friends at previous jobs…but those people were also on the chopping block to be fired.

        The current one is a coworker who brings her kids to work, makes private calls throughout the day, leaves trash around their desk and has asked the person I’m asking about to not bring clients to the office because it makes her uncomfortable. The supervisor is not willing to ask that person to clean up their work space, etc.

        I’m sure there’s a mix of things, but I feel so helpless. This is a good person who is also somewhat reserved and has had a hard life. I’ve directed them to this page, though ;)

        1. Observer*

          OK, so one thing is clear here. She is taking on issues that are not hers to take on. The coworker (assuming the description is accurate) sounds like fun, but it’s not your friend’s place to correct her, and she needs to back off. Yes, I think the supervisor is making a mistake, but that’s her problem.

          The only thing that IS her business is the issue of bringing clients to the office. Assuming that it is normally acceptable and useful to bring clients to the office, that is something she needs to ask her boss about – eg “Jane asked me not to bring clients into the office because it makes her uncomfortable. How would you like me to handle it?”

        2. Artemesia*

          You only know all this because of what this worker is telling you. It does appear that s/he is fussing about lots of stuff that isn’t in the own wheelhouse and is also rationalizing own failings. The most important thing this person can do is take some responsibility for how they interact with the boss and focus on what is needed to get the work done.

          e.g. bringing the kids in is not her problem until they get in the way of her work — bad management but not her problem. Not being able to have clients in the office is a potential problem and needs to be presented to the boss — where would s/he like the person to meet with clients given the co-workers demands?

      3. Ezri*

        “I know there’s been some good AAM advice about “faking” friendliness with coworkers…”

        This is what I thought of, too. I’m an awkward introvert who handles unexpected social contact badly. In my head I know I don’t dislike people or want to be rude, but in the past I’ve come off as antisocial because I’m bad at being social. It’s something I have to put mental energy into improving, just like any other work-related skill.

        1. matcha123*

          I’m also quite introverted, and it’s only through a lot of work that I’ve been able to at least put up a good face. One that hopefully doesn’t look too much like Resting Bitch Face all the time.

          But, I only realized that I might be coming off as a wet blanket because I spent so much time thinking about it haha!

    2. hildi*

      So this person that is the recipient of the mistreatment has had this happen at three different workplaces now? My sister in law used to call me up for advice because every time she was at a new job she inevitably had a major clash with someone and they bullied her, sob story, wah, wah. It took me about 4 or 5 workplaces to realize that it’s her. Duh. And then there was a big, ugly throwdown at Christmas where I totally realized what a problem she truly was. I have no doubt she just didn’t click with the other people, but she wasn’t helping herself because she can’t take feedback; she’s incredibly thin-skinned; and she’s defensive and offensive at the same time. I have watched in the past 10 years a pattern of her going from job to job and leaving because of the same problems – at a certain point you realize it’s you. I know there are bullies and bad actors out there – but for the same problems to surface in the same way at all these places makes me err more on the side of her than not.

      That being said, that supervisor sounded like she was purposely trying to pile on this employee. Is it just a major culture clash? I know I’d probably be annoyed by an overly-by-the-book person esp if they weren’t personally relatable. The difference is in not treating them worse for it.

      1. matcha123*

        Some might be culture related. This person is pretty reserved in some ways due to various things that have happened throughout their life. And because of those life experiences, they’ve had to navigate through university and beyond without a support network.

        This person is very studious and I think that being mostly alone for so long and having a series of bad experiences with trusted people has left them with their guard up. They’ve definitely taken up invites for coffee or tea or chats and walks with other coworkers.

        1. hildi*

          I feel for this person. I imagine there are hurts that will never heal and that’s not always evident to other people. And when someone is hurting and not able to trust, some more dominant and narcisstic people prey on that perceived weakness. It sucks. Especially people like that boss (who really sounded like an ass) and this new coworker (who sounds incredibly selfish).

          Has your friend been to a counselor to talk through some of the issues from their past that might be contributing to how locked down they are with people now? That might be one step. But again, those two people you referenced really just sounded like assholes. And we’re all subject to assholes – some of us get their crap more than others (ha! I swear I did not plan that. And it’s gross, I’m sorry.). So my point I think is that your friend might need to bone up on assertively responding? Assertive not the same as aggressive or offensive. Here are a few sites that I liked while I was doing some research for a respectful workplace/bullying class. Maybe it’ll give your friend some ideas of things he’s never thought about:

          http://www.bullying.com.au/workplace-bullying/index.php
          http://www.nobullyforme.org/
          http://noworkplacebullies.com/home

          1. matcha123*

            I think they may have talked with some trusted friends, but one friend kind of blew it by making light of a major incident this person experienced…turning it into a joke along the lines of: “If you think YOUR life sucks, X had THIS happen!! lol”

            They are good at listening to others’ problems and helping them out, but kind of suck with their own. Thank you for the links! I will definitely pass them on. I’m hoping that this is just a temporary thing and they can find a better place that fits. The clients seem to be happy and they are apparently bringing in a lot of work for the place, so that’s one thing :)

    3. fposte*

      Has she asked you for advice? I’m not hearing that she has. If so, unless you’re supervising this person (or the people who are dealing with her) I don’t think there’s much you can do.

      If she has asked you for advice, maybe it’s worth pointing out that being great at your job includes getting along with the people there, and that that’s a developable skill. Would greater career success and job security be worth polishing up that skill for her?

      1. matcha123*

        No, not asking for advice. More like telling me about things that are going on at work and I’ll try to analyze the situation, give a possible explanation for the behavior of the other person and offer advice based on that person’s personality and what I’ve read here.

        Your last two lines are ones that I often bring up. Unfortunately, I’m not in the position to tell if this person is bringing all of this upon their person or if they truly are putting forward their best foot and coming across some crappy co-workers.
        It’s also possible that their idea of what a proper workplace should be is unrealistic.

        1. brightstar*

          Patterns are telling, and if this person is running across the same problems at multiple workplaces, they are the common denominator. From what you’ve said, he/she sounds like a very “because these are the rules and must strictly be followed” person and that can be extremely irritating.

          From experience I would say don’t invest too much time or energy into trying to solve their problems.

          1. matcha123*

            A pretty by-the-book person in many aspects, but not all. Mostly when it comes to aspects of work that could invite government investigations or lawsuits. I probably should have been more specific on that point.

            The rules issues seem to come up with how to deal with certain clients or the way specific office items are used. It sounds like if, I don’t know, someone takes pictures of themselves licking teapots as they come off the line, the license given to deal with teapots could be revoked for all if the pictures get out, even if that person wasn’t licking teapots.

            When telling the coworkers that maybe licking teapots isn’t the best idea, because it’s a violation, the bullying (if that’s the word to use) started which then led to a dismissal.

            1. Gwen*

              With these details, I think maybe some consideration of hierarchy/when someone should speak up might be useful for this person? It can be hard for someone who isn’t very social to get a read on office politics, but it can be really important in situations like that. For example, if I see a peer/someone I’m close to licking a teapot, I might say “hey, friend, you probably shouldn’t do that, we could get in trouble.” But if I see a senior staff member licking a teapot, I would take to to my manager and ask how she wants to handle it, because a) censure from me means nothing to this person and b) it could definitely make my life harder if someone decides they have it in for me because I disapprove of their errant tongue!

            2. Observer*

              I hesitate to be harsh, because we really are not getting the whole picture, but I think a bit of self awareness might be useful here. You say that she’s only into the rules for things that might be audit worthy and the like. Yet, it also seems from your description that she is trying to get the boss to enforce rules on the other co-worker’s attendance, childcare and neatness. In most fields, that kind of thing is not likely to prompt a government investigation or lawsuit. So, what’s going on?

    4. ClaireS*

      Could they access some training on Emotional Intelligence or team building? Sounds like they need help understanding the more interpersonal aspects of the role.

      1. matcha123*

        For some of the roles, I don’t think that any additional training was offered or encouraged. Hopefully this current role affords that, I’ll ask them to look into it :)

    5. Simonthegrey*

      No advice, but you pretty much just described my husband. He really is incredibly smart and efficient as a worker, but he comes across as very brusque and almost rude because if something isn’t part of the job/work, he doesn’t understand why it needs to be done. I don’t mean a “that’s not my job” mentality. More of a, “I don’t drink coffee, so why would I take five minutes to get coffee and socialize with the guys? Better go in my office” mentality. I love him because he’s blunt and honest but I realize those are the same characteristics that made him a target for the most recent round of layoffs. He didn’t have the soft skills with the people he worked with. It’s too bad, but he’s now finally starting to listen to me when I tell him that sometimes you have to smile, nod, and ask about the other person’s kid/car/dog/hobby.

      1. matcha123*

        Yes! This!
        But because of this experience, I’ve spent time thinking about how I can/should approach people at my own workplace. I’ve had coworkers who seem cold and distant, and unless I see them wiping boogers on everything and drinking beers at their desks, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt.
        Good luck to him!

    6. INTP*

      Others have already said a lot of what I’ve typed out, but I wanted to add this:

      I am an introvert, a bit awkward, and often have little to talk about with coworkers. However, I’ve found that the most extroverted workplace (unless it’s VERY weird and militantly social) will eventually warm to you if you 1) are friendly and 2) make people’s lives easier. You may never be the person who charms your way to the top or holds onto the job that they suck at, but you’ll be appreciated. I think focusing on these two keys would really help this person.

      For #1, this person should really watch out for any unintentional condescension. It’s just my overwhelming gut feeling that this person comes across as condescending about their knowledge and experience, especially regarding their degree. Also, social interactions should focus on making people feel good – responding to the chitchat or saying hi or bye may not be enough. A good strategy is to remember a thing or two about each person and ask questions. You may not have any topics of mutual interest to chat about for hours, but you can fill 2 minutes by asking, “How’s your ____ doing/going?” (insert wedding planning, children, gardening, triathlon training, house buying, whatever). Just asking each person one question a week can do a lot to reverse the impression that you don’t care about anyone because you’re not chatty with them.

      For #2, if this person is really invested in getting people punished for breaking rules and making everyone follow the letter of the law, they definitely aren’t making everyone’s lives easier! They should learn to mind their own business and adopt a personal rule of only raising an issue when something is directly affecting their own work or might be disastrous for the business. And in general (there are a few things worth fighting for, but not many) they should raise the issue one time with their supervisor and if nothing is going to be done, let it go.

      I think it’s too late for this person at their current workplace, but I’m willing to bet that reigning in the condescension, asking friendly questions, and staying out of other people’s business will make a world of difference at their next job.

      1. krisl*

        “The most extroverted workplace (unless it’s VERY weird and militantly social) will eventually warm to you if you 1) are friendly and 2) make people’s lives easier. ”

        This! I’m also an introvert and not socially adept, but people seem to like me because I’m nice (even though I can’t think of good small talk), and I’m helpful and friendly, and I treat people well.

      2. matcha123*

        Definitely not looking to get people in trouble or severely adhere to the rules.
        But the rules this person is most worried about are ones that directly relate to them getting their license/certification. I guess if this person decides to go along with other people and ignore rules X/Y/Z and the government finds out, this person will not ever be able to get their certification and job opportunities in their field will be effectively reduced to zero.

        Perhaps similar to the letter writer a week or so ago who was an accountant for a business that wasn’t paying their bills on time and was lying to clients. Even though her boss directed her to do so, doing so would reflect badly on her character in the end. This person is in a somewhat similar situation it seems.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I think everyone here has made great points that definitely will help.

      FWIW, I would also advise the friend to learn how to pick jobs better. It may not all be about her personality and it may have something to do with not paying attention to people at the interview stage. She could be missing cues that are red flags.

      If she knows that she is not an outgoing person, pick work settings that require less contact. This could mean a smaller work place with less people. It could mean avoiding public facing jobs.

      She could be trying to jam a round peg (meaning herself) into a square hole (wrong work setting). Sometimes you can take a job and figure you will grow into the job. But there are some settings that a person might never grow into.
      This is a silly example, please bear with me: I want a good paying job. So I decide I am going to work on a line crew for the telephone company. (We are pretending I have the ability to understand the technology here, for the sake of the example.) However, I have one problem. I HATE ladders. I mean really hate ladders as in life-long hatred of ladders, scaffolding, heights, roofs, etc. But I insist upon taking this job and end up miserable and wondering WHY.

      My hatred of heights is part of me. It’s part of who I am. In my example here, I have just denied this entire part of me and how I am about things. Ask your friend if she has a part of herself that she is denying. A person who denies entire parts of who they are can end up in jobs that feel more like hell. This whole thing could be that she is not getting what she needs out of job therefore she ends up stilted and awkward, like a fish out of water.

      1. matcha123*

        In this case, two of the jobs I mentioned were/are in the person’s field and one was at a call center.

        The client facing parts of the jobs seem to be fine and this person is able to do excellent work with clients and the associated paperwork, etc.

        The newest thing I’ve hear is at the current workplace where the admin? secretary? is filing this person’s reports incorrectly and telling clients they should work with other people. It seems that the people in charge are not interested in intervening and this person needs this job in order to complete various steps for field-related certification.

        I think that after they have this certification or licensing, they will have more job opportunities to choose from.

  26. HeyNonnyNonny*

    Good people of AAM, I am in need of your tact!

    My cube is in a Very Bad Location. I am right by a conference room, and at a nexus of main walkways, so people frequently congretate pre- or post-meeting, or if they run into each other. They are often very loud, and talk about the most inane things (Mayans have tails. I found a bear in my cabin. etc.) It’s crazy distracting. I need help coming up with ways to politely tell people to move/be quiet because 1: I don’t actually know or work with any of these people, 2: I am junior and new enough that I don’t want to go against ‘culture’ (I know for a fact they’ve done this long before I got this cube), and 3: I’m fairly introverted, so I need something that I can practice in my head.

    Any help would be appreciated!

    1. BRR*

      I’m in the same boat so I look forward to responses. My dream is to get one of those no stopping or parking signs and hang it outside my cube.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      I sit in the middle of an open area and it drives me nuts. Here’s how I handle people lingering outside the conference rooms – I look very apologetic, and then say, “I”m really sorry, but I have to get on a call now and can’t hear; do you mind moving down a few feet? And then they usually just leave. I know you shouldn’t have to act in an apologetic manner but people don’t like to be shushed; it puts them on the defensive.

      1. hildi*

        I really like this. It’s work-related and everyone understands having to make a call and needing some quiet. Most of those people don’t even realize they’re being loud (haven’t we all been caught up in a conversation without realizing where we were and who was around us?), but this is a gentle, legitimate reminder. And asking them to move down a few feet is totally reasonable – you’re not asking them to stop the conversation, which is much harsher and unnecessary. I’m glad you posted this – it’s a good one to remember!

      2. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Oh, I love the wording for this. Asking them to move is much easier than asking them to be quiet. I’ll have to practice this one.

      3. nep*

        Yeah — that ‘I’m really sorry’ sounds misplaced and not called for. But I see your point that people get defensive when being shushed. I might just say, ‘Hi’ as a way of getting their attention, then go into the ‘I’ve got to get on a call now and I can’t hear…’

      4. AnonAnalyst*

        This is exactly what I was going to suggest. This happens occasionally in my workplace, and it’s a pretty reasonable request so no one seems to mind whenever I’ve used it.

      5. OhNo*

        Other options: you are starting a webinar, or listening to a tutorial, or on a really tight deadline and really need to focus. Just rotate between them as desired, so you have a couple options and don’t get a reputation as “that guy who is always on the phone”.

    3. Fawn*

      As someone in this very same position (and also junior, and also introverted), I just want you to know you’re not alone! The only think I can suggest is headphones or earplugs, if your work allows for it. Good luck!

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Glad I’m not the only one dealing with this!

        I do wear headphones, but some of these people’s voices carry even over that!

    4. Aunt Vixen*

      Others may have advice in response to the question you actually asked. When I’ve been in similar situations, I’ve put on headphones – big obvious ones so people don’t start talking to me without realizing that I’ve got them on. Retro-looking ear-can headphones. And when those don’t do the job on their own, I put foam earplugs in first.

      I’m basically the airport ground crew of office workers.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        AV, how do you manage all that without getting a headache? I would love the giant headphones idea if they’re comfortable!

    5. Kara Ayako*

      I also sit outside a conference room, but I tend to just ignore it unless I’m on the phone. When I’m on the phone, I’ll excuse myself for a minute, put the phone on mute, and say something along the lines of “I’m so sorry, guys, but I’m on the phone” and that’s always enough for them to apologize and quietly scamper away.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        From what I gathered, the guy was staying with a group of people in a cabin, and he came downstairs one day to find a bear in the kitchen. Apparently a cabin-mate had let it in the night before– there may have been drinking involved. So the guy just went back upstairs to bed. That’s all!

        1. ACA*

          I hope there was drinking involved; it seems even worse to choose to let a bear in the cabin when sober!

      2. chewbecca*

        Me too! I was thinking that if my cabin had a bear in it, it would cease to be my cabin and become the bear’s.

    7. Mike C.*

      There are areas all over my workplace like this, and in those areas are polite but firm signs saying something to the effect of, “Please use a conference room for discussions, the noise is a huge distraction for us.” It seems to work pretty well.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Hm, that might even work for me to just say directly to them. If only I could get an office-wide policy on those…

        1. Mike C.*

          You can do that if you like, but you might get tired of it after a while. :)

          Really though, I’ve been in both spots and sometimes I’m still focused on what was going on during the meeting or I want to finish something up that only applied to a few of us, and having that reminder is a nice way to take off those blinders for a second and remember that there are others around.

          If your coworkers are reasonable, I’m sure they’ll feel the same way.

      2. Windchime*

        Yeah, we have some signs in our area too. People tend to get chatty in the hall by the restrooms or coming and going from the lunch room, so there are signs that say something like, “This is a work area. Please keep noise and distractions to a minimum.”

    9. Janis*

      A colleague put up a Dilbert cartoon outside her cubicle about this:

      Alice (cranky engineer) is speaking to 2 guys outside her cube, “I hate to interrupt your loud conversation outside my cubicle…”
      Second panel: “But if you don’t go away, I’ll pound your inconsiderate head so far into your torso that you have to drop your pants to say hello.”
      Third panel: Wally asks Dilbert, “Did you just hear a strange noise?” Dilbert, standing near a person stuffed in a trashcan, “It sounded like Melp! Melp!”

      I’m not saying the chatter ended completely, but she put it up with no comment and people got the picture. Maybe you could dig up that cartoon on Dilbert.com?

    10. Artemesia*

      If there is any place else you could move, ask to do that with a focus on — my cube is essentially near the post meeting discussion spot and the noise is making it hard for me to hear on the phone and concentrate on the TPS reports. Could I move to X cube so I can concentrate better.
      As always when making a request lead with the business reason and ask if there is anything that can be done — if at all possible have a potential solution like that open cube X.

      You will never get people to stop talking by your cube and you will soon become the office nag trying.

  27. a new person*

    Hi! So I just found out I have an infectious disease. While I wait for my coming appointments and figure out what the next steps are in tackling that, my research suggests that the standard course of treatment involves several months of weekly treatment with awful multiple-days-long-flu-sort side effects. I’m of course scared.

    I told my direct supervisor about this as a heads up (“There’s a chance I might have to take time off work due to medical treatment”) and my supervisor and my workplace are very understanding! The people I work with are willing to work with me to figure out a flexible schedule that works for everyone. So going forward, I’m optimistic that I will be okay work-wise. I’ve only been working here a few months.

    Just wanted to share this happy story with everyone, have a good Friday everyone!

    2. nep*

      Sorry you’re dealing with that. Sounds like you’re handling things well at the job, and great that your supervisor and co-workers are being understanding and helpful. Stress won’t help the healing process, of course. Best wishes as you treat and recover.

  28. Anonie*

    I may be jumping from the frying pan into the skillet! Was invited to interview for a position I think has promise but the reviews on glass door were bad. High turnover and bad management were the complaints. The Executive Director is retiring in December and there are a lot of positions open at the management level. My interview is with two people who are “acting managers” of other departments because the manager positions are open. I really want to get out of my current job. I hate my manager! I was recently given a promotion and raise but I still want to leave because I hate her that much. Trying not jump at something that could be awful as well. Should I take a chance on new leadership coming in when it sounds like there are problems with the new organization? I want to be open to the possibility of getting a job with this company but now I’m worried about jumping from the frying pan into the skillet.

    1. Ms. Anonymity*

      Personally, I like to roll the dice. I’d jump and be excited about the new opportunities and challenges unless I thought the company was going to go under. If that’s not the case, you’d be in an excellent environment to be able to show off your skills and make a difference. You might even get promoted quicker than in a more stable environment.

      1. Anonie*

        The company itself is very stable they have been around a very long time. I don’t think they are going anywhere anytime soon. I think there is possibility for growth. I’m just a look before you leap kind of person but sometimes I think that is why my career is not where I want it to be because I have not taken enough chances. I think you are right that it could be an opportunity to get promoted more quickly in this environment.

    2. ClaireS*

      I’d prep some pointed questions for the interview to ascertain how they are handling these specific challenges.

      I think Allison’s give some advice on this before but I’d look for questions like: “there appears to be high turnover at the management level. What type of qualities will you be looking for as you look for the manager I’ll be reporting to?” “This appears to be a transitional time for the company, what values and strategies are you hoping to drive forward with”

  29. SuzyQ*

    Looking for some advice on how to delicately tell my boss I am bored out of my mind. I just passed the 90 day mark at my new job and am preparing for a review. I need more things to do here, but still being fairly new I am not sure just what other types of responsibilities I can ask for. Also, I’m not sure how to explain just how I have been filling my time here if that comes up. I read this site and other business-type blogs, stretch projects out for a really long time but my days still crawl by. But really, I want more to do.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I know exactly how that feels. I would frame it more as a long-term goal thing– “this is what I’d like to accomplish by the end of the year”– rather than a, “Give me more to do!” thing. Chances are, you won’t need to explain how you fill your days, especially if they’re aware your workload is light. Is there any kind of project you’d be interested in learning about? Any area you think you could help in? Hard to know without knowing your position/field, but if you’re an assistant and you’re a good proofreader, you can offer those services, things like that. If you’re in an industry that gets some press coverage, you could offer to do a weekly press wrap-up. Again, tough to give specific examples, but you can always ask: “I’d like to get involved in teapot design; is there any way I can help in that area?”

      1. SuzyQ*

        Thanks! I am actually a manager in a very small organization. Your comment did just remind me that I am going to offer to backup some of the office staff and need to learn how to do their jobs. I like the suggestion to ask if I can help in certain areas. Phew! Now just to get through the review.

        1. OhNo*

          I feel like it’s always a good idea for a manager to get some insight into what the employees do. Or, at least, I like it when my managers do that. Learning those aspects would be a really useful way to fill your time.

          Also, this one might be a bit boring, but you could also ask if there are any manuals, training materials, etc. that you could help re-write or organize while you are doing this. I find that most training materials are written by the person who knows the process best – which works great in terms of getting everything down, but sometimes they miss steps, or instructions aren’t as thorough as they could/should be because certain things about what they do are so normal to them that they forget about it. So reviewing that kind of thing might also help.

    2. dawnofthenerds*

      I’m in sort of the same boat, except one month in. Maybe ask them about your job performance, and if they say good things, talk about how you’ve made a lot of progress adjusting to a new place and learning the tasks, and that you feel you’re ready to take on more responsibility or additional tasks. That way it sounds more like you’ve ramped up to where you are now and are eager to go further, rather than, “soooo booooored.”

    3. Red*

      I phrased my “delicate suggestion” as a request for cross training. Now I regret it just a little (garnishment is really a depressing duty).

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Do you have a job description for your position? That might give you some clues as to where to go next.

      I guess that if I was asked how I fill up my time, I would just turn the question around by saying, “Oh good, that is something I wanted us to talk about. I feel that I have time available that I could make myself of more value to this company and I wanted your thoughts on how best to proceed.”

  30. Nerd Girl*

    I started working for my current company as a long term temp just about a year ago. Two other women started with me. In the last six months, myself and another temp were offered permanent positions within the company. These positions came after we had spoken with our supervisor about our desire to be full time, worked diligently to master the skills taught to us and asked to learn more, and become an integral part of the team here. The third woman hasn’t done any of this. She has never communicated her interest in being full time and she does the bare minimum of work and never seeks out more.
    Recently she’s started this passive aggressive approach to dealing with her frustration at not being offered a full time position. She sighs dramatically, mutters under her breath about how disgusted and discouraged she is, and basically makes it difficult for the other woman and I to get on with our day. It’s ALL day, every day. The sighs come every 2 – 3 minutes, the muttering is constant, and her displeasure is palpable. We’re a remote location so it’s not as if our manager is going to see or hear this (though I have been informed that she’s been sending frustrated “WHY HAVEN’T YOU HIRED ME???!!!!” emails to our supervisor complete with caps and heavy punctuation). I’ve been wearing my headphones which blocks her out but she’s taken to moping and walking around the office like a kicked puppy.
    Any advice on how to deal with her? Should I even bother? I don’t necessarily care for this woman and wouldn’t be upset if her contract expired and she moved on to other things. But how I deal with it until then? That date won’t be until June-ish.

    1. Sunflower*

      Be honest and tell her you and the other woman’s experience. Tell her when you desired to be full-time, you made sure you were putting your best work forward, going above and beyond and you expressed interest in being full-time. Just be frank and say ‘If you aren’t sure why they are hiring you, why don’t you have a calm conversation with Jane and explain why you deserve to be full time’ If she says she has, I would just try to continue ignoring her and hope Jane will give her some direction on how she can reach full time status.

    2. Gwen*

      I would ignore her 100%, honestly. People like this don’t respond to logic. It’s a persecution complex, plain and simple, and any kind of interaction is just going to tell her that she can get attention from you if she mopes hard enough/dramatically enough. But, then, I also ignore people who SIGH DRAMATICALLY~ or MUTTER UNDER THEIR BREATH~ as a matter of principle. If you want to talk about something, you can use your words like a human adult.

      1. Windchime*

        This person also works on my team. She rolls her eyes, crosses her arms defensively, mutters sarcastic comments under her breath (“ha!” or “yeah, good luck with THAT”). She does this in meetings with clients as well as internal meetings. If she’s not muttering and sighing, she’s laughing compulsively and talking over people. It’s totally annoying and she wonders why she only gets assigned boring work that she believes is beneath her: I wish there was a way to tell her it’s because her annoying, negative habits make her so difficult to work with. But that would just cause another sighing, sarcastic fit.

    3. Observer*

      Headphones, music and something to keep you busy every time she complains. Every. single. time. If she says something to you just calmly tell her that you got offered positions after expressing interest POLITELY but clearly and mastering the skill and doing the work necessary for the job. And, then refuse to discuss it any further.

      I feel bad for her, but I can’t imagine that you’ll be able to change anything, so you might as well keep yourself from going nuts.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think she will last until June. With that attitude I would be amazed if she lasted to December. Usually people who are that agitated end up quitting. She may call in sick a lot, too.

  31. Kay*

    I’m going to an event next week with one of our sales reps representing our company. We cater to students, so basically a booth at a college fair. I’ll likely be standing the entire time. Would it be completely unprofessional to wear black athletic style shoes as long as I wear appropriate black slacks and a nice top? I have issues with my feet when I stand in one place for long periods, and when asked to attend, I thought it would be a really good opportunity to meet some coworkers I don’t know because I work remotely. I wore out my pair of black flats and rarely (basically never) wear dress shoes in my normal work.

    1. Another comment on the situation*

      I have great luck with flats with athletic looking bottoms. Cole Haan had some great ones a few years ago that had Nike Air integrated in them. This month’s issue of Shop Smart also has a short article on stylish comfortable shoes.

      1. Another comment on the situation*

        You can go to the Zappos website and select womens, office/career, comfort, etc. to see what they have.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      This would be totally fine. There are a lot of options that are work appropriate but still comfy for standing all day. And yeah, you’ll be standing all day.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think college students are the most informal audience/demographic I can think of, but you could always ask the sales rep what they think, since they’ve probably been to a ton of these events, and they would know if, say, the event organizer at AAM University tends to complain to the company if a rep isn’t wearing a suit or something silly and random like that.

    5. Agile Phalanges*

      If you’re able to front the money, order a whole slew of potential shoes from Zappos that are nice-looking but in brands known to be comfortable. I did that before a trade show, and kept two pairs and send the rest back for a refund to my credit card (shipping both ways is free with Zappos). I got recommendations from friends, FB, and just poking around the site, and it turns out some that looked comfy and came highly recommended weren’t so comfy on my feet, some that were comfy and looked okay online looked really dowdy in person, and there were some there were cute AND comfy once I tried them on. Good luck!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I have problem feet, too.
      Shoe inserts are great. If you are planning on buying shoes for this event, get a half size larger than your usual size. Add the shoe inserts, even the cheapies will give you some benefit.

      Drink plenty of water, that will help. And you have the added benefit of having to walk to the rest room.

  32. Daisy*

    We are having a problem with having people’s lunches, coffee, tea, etc. being stolen. I work in a university and our break room is a room just off a classroom with no door attached. It is employees only and yet students routinely just go in and help themselves to whatever they want. Whenever we manage to catch one of them, they never are ashamed and they say that they pay a lot of tuition money to go here (state university) and that they should be able to eat what they want – even if it is someone else lunch. We have placed signs up in the room but we have been told repeatedly that we will not ever be getting a door for this room. Any suggestions? We cannot ‘guard’ it all the time since most of us work in another area of the building, we mostly do the occasional walk by when we have a chance. I have stopped using the break room entirely for storing anything and only use it for the microwave but there are days when I would love to use the refrigerator.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      Could you move the fridge elsewhere, like in someone’s office or just not near the classroom?

      Can’t believe they’d do that and then sass you when you catch them!

      1. Daisy*

        No, it is only there because we are squeezed for space everywhere else.

        One student was caught and I have to go back there a few minutes alter for something and he was back at the Keurig again trying to make himself another cup of coffee from the stack of pods that I had personally bought and had previously told him that they were mine and he was not to have any. I took that cup of coffee away from him and poured it out just like I did the first one but that time, I took all my pods with me back to my office.

        1. Puddin*

          Has anyone reported the students to security or the ‘code of conduct’ folks at the school? Snap a photo of the student if you cannot get their name then call security. Thieves are the worst.

          1. HeyNonnyNonny*

            Yes, this. Especially since you already told the student that it wasn’t public coffee, and he made another cup right away.

    2. BRR*

      Lunch box and an ice pack. Unless you can get a chain and lock for the fridge and cabinets. You will not win the battle of changing the students’ actions (who are being absolute jerks).

    3. C Average*

      That’s awful!

      In high school, my good friend often had his lunch pilfered from his locker by a lunch thief, and we had a pretty good idea who the thief was. My friend’s mom one day made him a real lunch (which he hid under some other stuff in his backpack) as well as an additional lunch to be left in the usual location for the thief to find. It contained cookies–with a circle of flannel baked into the middle of each one! I’m told the thief’s reaction was awesome, and am sad that I didn’t witness it. Anyway, the flannel trick works in sandwiches, too.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        That’s a lot nicer than what I was thinking….

        Let’s just say that I really like hot sauce and leave it at that.

    4. Elkay*

      That’s insanity, I can’t believe they’re not even ashamed to be caught! Department issued locking lunchboxes maybe?

    5. Aunt Vixen*

      Lock the fridge. I mean with like a steel hasp and a padlock like you’d find on a shed with barn doors; they make 90-degree ones so you can put the bar on the fridge door and the hasp on the side. Give employees a key and let the students get their snacks from the vending machine.

    6. Sunflower*

      I would find a lunch box that you are able to put a simple lock on. I feel for you though- these people sound awful!!

    7. Muriel Heslop*

      That is totally bizarre! There is more than one person who thinks he or she is entitled to eat someone else’s food because they pay tuition? I cannot imagine that there is any solution for that other than don’t leave your food there. Might be time to invest in a mini-fridge (our team members chipped in for one years ago to avoid this problem.)

      Has anyone suggested to the administration that a door be added to this break room? Is there another area that could be appropriated as a break room? Good luck!

    8. Ezri*

      So, by that logic… since we pay taxes in the US, are we entitled to food belonging to Congress? Has more than one of them used this justification?

    9. Magda*

      That is outrageous! Is theft not a disciplinary offense for students?

      I’m just… boggled by this. I’m flashing back to my hard ass Catholic school upbringing. If I had eaten a teacher’s lunch and shown no remorse, I’m pretty sure the resulting punishment could have been seen/heard from outer space.

    10. Karowen*

      That’s horrendous. As a person in my 20s with student loan debt, I can (to an extent) understand the concept of “I paid a lot, I’m going to get my money’s worth,” but that (a) does not include stealing and (b) does not include making lives miserable for the people who work there! The person with the K cups may be the single most entitled donkey’s ass I’ve heard of yet on this blog…and that’s saying something.

    11. matcha123*

      When I was in university, there was nothing I hated more than hearing some pathetic excuse for bad behavior justified by high tuition fees. You know the costs when you applied, and in most cases it is your parents, not you, who are footing the bill.

      Is it possible to put a lock on the fridge with keys that only current staff have access to? Universities really should be willing to expel students for things like this. Plagiarizing a paper is stealing. Taking someone’s lunch is also stealing.

    12. Gwen*

      I could understand (though not necessarily agree with) that argument if it pertained to stealing food from a dining hall/cafeteria where you theoretically have paid more for your dining plan than you believe the food you receive from it is worth. But a staff member’s personal property?? Serious WTF.

      1. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

        I agree with everyone else- get a lock for the fridge and cabinets, and ask each student perpetrator for their name and student ID number to report to campus safety. (Maybe first check with campus police on what you’re allowed to ask students though, for privacy reasons. Can staff ask to verify their student status via asking for ID?)

        This lock looks good, bc no drilling required, AND you can use a combination lock: http://www.amazon.com/Marinelock-MLDOORW-Refrigerator-Door-Lock/dp/B000QD32MY

        Grrr entitled students are the worst. Good luck!

        1. Windchime*

          Did anyone read the comments on this lock? One person bought it because her Coonhound had figured out how to open the refrigerator!

    14. LCL*

      Talk to Facilities and find out what would have to happen to get a door with a lock installed. Talk to Security and tell them you have a security concern. Get these two groups on your side, then talk to whoever is opposing adding the door, that has the power to approve it. Often management will oppose physical changes to a workplace because they don’t do that kind of work, don’t have any idea of what’s involved so see it as a huge unwieldy job. Meanwhile, Facilities does this kind of work all the time. If your business is big enough to be a University it has to have a facilities/maintenance department.

        1. LCL*

          It could, but there is often room for some creative project budgeting. Maybe the rest of the area needs a reno, and this is a small part. Or something. Sometimes security issues are funded out of a different budget…

          1. fposte*

            At my university this would be major–it would have to be a fire door, for one thing, with proper framing–and it really isn’t something that would get purchased because of a staff lunch issue.

    15. INTP*

      I agree, you’re going to have to get a lock for the refrigerator and cabinets. And in the meantime, you can urge individuals to use locking lunchboxes. I remember an old AAM post where someone’s boss habitually ate everyone’s food, and the update said that it stopped when she got a locking lunchbox and her coworkers followed suit. In the meantime, things like k-cup pods may have to be kept in individual offices.

      I’d also like to express my disdain for the students’ rationalization. Even if high tuition were a valid excuse for stealing food, they’re also stealing from grad students and adjuncts who are living on even tighter budgets than the average undergrad! They may be stealing lunches from people who can’t afford to go pay $7 for a food court lunch instead, and who then have to go teach a class while feeling faint from hunger, and will be up working late that night because they were too hungry to concentrate while stuck on campus. Or people of any level who don’t have time to go get food between the classes they teach, meetings, and other obligations.

    16. Anx*

      Could you leave any information about food resources?

      Being a student can make you ineligible for food stamps unless you also work 20 hours. I’m sure the root of this problem is attitude and thievery, but I think you should also consider the plight of student hunger.

    17. Artemesia*

      I am not sure why a student who thieves is not expelled.

      The only possible solution if the refrigerator is to remain there is to put a padlock on it. Only staff have the combination — or a keyed lock with the receptionist having the key. Otherwise it needs to be moved to a space that is not accessible.

  33. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I had an extremely frustrating conversation with my manager yesterday. He called me (I work remotely) and asked me to put together some ideas for reports to create for press and sales and implied that I should be working on creating these reports on a regular basis. But… that’s what I do. It took him a very long time to figure out what to do with me (I’m in a newly created position), and I started taking matters into my own hands, so to speak. I churn out monthly outreach reports for sales and press (unasked, as in, no one has to remind me to do it), and I told my boss I’m doing a big report on, say, this year’s chocolate teapot models, again unasked. I regularly talk with my salespeople about what kinds of information their clients and prospective clients are looking for. So why on earth was this brought up yesterday??? My frustration mostly lies in that I feel like my job is constantly being audited, like they know they don’t give me enough work, so I’m hesitant to say, “Boss, you know I already do that, right?”, which is what I would have done at my last gig. I feel that if I question anything, they’ll let me go. We also had a small issue where a client request came in and I assumed it would come to me– when I didn’t see the assignment come through, I asked my boss about it, and he was all, “Oh! Right! I gave it to the other team, but you should do that one,” as if he’s completely forgotten why he hired me. All I could do was stare at the phone in disbelief. Oh, and let’s not forget that the ideas I shot out briefly on the phone that were all met with, “No, I don’t think that’s valuable,” and, “No, I don’t think anyone cares about that.” You hired me because I spent 10 years on the client side! I talk to people! I talk to my salespeople all the time. I have an idea of what people are looking for. SHEESH.

    However, I did see an opening for a position in my field and in my geographic area for a company whose CEO used to work for a company with whom I had very close ties at my old job. I don’t think he’d remember me right away– he left that company before I took over our projects on the client side– but I’m going to apply and ask our mutual connections to put in a good word for me.

  34. Livin' in a Box*

    I hired someone for the first time this week, and it was awful.

    I needed a cartoonist to draw my header for my website. Seems simple, right? Nearly everyone who applied sent me cover letters about how great their coding and web design skills were and I was like… Um what?

    After sifting through about a hundred illiterate applicants, I gave up on my ad.

    I did eventually find a great cartoonist, after searching odesk profiles for half the day.

    1. soitgoes*

      Did you post the ad in the correct category? It sounds like those applicants thought you were advertising a web design job.

    2. Dev Something*

      Freelance webdesign is quite competative and there’s a lot of workers from India and the like. So the mass-apply strategy is understandably popular, especially for those who aren’t great with English.

      1. Livin' in a Box*

        I don’t understand why my ad was even on their radar; web design wasn’t mentioned once! I have a lot of sympathy for people who have to hire regularly.

  35. the gold digger*

    I really like my new job, but was super disappointed the other day when I saw a guy carrying a big potted plant down the hall and asked him if he was bringing me a shrubbery and he did not give me anywhere near an appropriate answer. What is wrong with Kids These Days?

    1. ExceptionToTheRule*

      We were doing mic checks on a remote last week and one of the guys helping us out did the entire bridge of death scene. It was hysterical.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      Ha, I love this. My BIL is a professor and when no one answered a question recently, he did the “Bueller? Bueller? quote and said he got a bunch of blank looks. The kid who sits next to me has never heard of Happy Days!

      1. Artemesia*

        Nothing dates a professor like using references that are decades out of date. Does he also reference old ‘I love Lucy’ episodes?

    5. TotesMaGoats*

      I fully intend to indoctrinate my son with all the movies of my youth. Star Wars, Monty Python, Princess Bride, and Indiana Jones (but not the last one), just to name a few.

      When one of us is getting dropped off and the other stays in the car (such as getting something at the store), the standard refrain is…”lock the doors” by the person leaving and “hope they don’t have blasters” by the person staying.

      2. GH in SoCAl*

        Ha! I did that exact same call-and-response to my Boss two jobs ago as he was on his way out, and got this amazed high five back. He’s a funny geek and until that moment I guess he thought I was a stodgy intellectual. (I’m a couple of years older than him but we’re both in the Star Wars Generation!)

    6. Nerd Girl*

      This is great!!! My husband and I have made sure that our kids (9 and 8) are well versed in all of our favorite movies. I can’t explain how much I love it when they quote a movie and use the quote correctly to the situation. The other day my niece was trying to get into their bedroom and my son was standing on the other side of the door doing the french soldiers “Your father was a hampster….” and then he opened the door, tapped the top of his head and blew raspberries at her. My niece wasn’t happy but my sister thought it was hysterical!!!

      1. Artemesia*

        Our kids quote Singing in the Rain. Not long ago I did the ‘no no no, yes yes yes’ scene with my granddaughter who is a pre-schooler and with whom I had shared that scene. She thought it was hilarious. So when I did the ‘no no no’ and she did the ‘yes yes yes’ bit her Dad tried to intervene because he was trying to ‘ignore certain behavior’ rather than saying ‘no.’ He didn’t realize we were doing a ‘bit’ for a few beats.

    7. Anonsie*

      A new hire from some months back got into one of our elevators for the first time and, seeing how big they were on the inside, said “What is this, the Tardis?” The rest of the people in the elevator just starred at her. She was so disappointed.

    8. Cath in Canada*

      I used to work on a gene called Spam1 (sperm adhesion molecule 1), and I used to include references to the spam sketch / song in every presentation. It caused about 50% laughs / 50% confusion

  36. Question from New York State*

    My husband is most likely getting a transfer for work to a remote village in Alaska (actually , not a village, about 10 people live there). My question surrounds what I can do while there (2 or 3 year contract). I could study for an Masters Degree online or try to get work in the closest town (40 minute drive away) which would be retail or clerical work. Is it better to have online schooling to answer for a 2 year gap in work or would having a retail or clerical job and volunteering be better? Would you try and get some kind of part time career-related in the city that is a 2 hour drive away? I currently work in government communications and am in my late 20s, so I only have about 4 years of career work under my belt.

    1. Amanda*

      I think an online Master’s would be better, if you can’t get something career-related within a reasonable commute.

      What a fun adventure!

      1. Question from New York State*

        Yes and now. I know I don’t want to do an MBA, but a Masters of Public Relations, Masters of Communication or Masters of Public Admin are all relevant to jobs in my field. I may be seen as overqualified for some positions when it comes time to apply for jobs again. The biggest ‘con’ of this is that we will most likely move in February 2015, but the online programs that I qualify for don’t start until September 2015, so I will have a lot of time of just waiting, so I hope to fill my time by doing something. Doing courses ahead of time is not an option (asked already).

        1. Felicia*

          I think even if you don’t choose a masters, there are a lot of remote opportunities both volunteer and paid, in public relations/communications. I’m doing one right now where I’ve never even seen the people i’m volunteering for. It gives me a lot of publish clips which I’m finding more essential than education in the field.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      I would say that this is one of those situations where regardless of which you pick, school or work, you’ll want to explain it in a cover letter. Especially if you pick work and it’s radically different from what you were doing. Such as…

      “I’ve learned so much about adaptability in the last few years. Our family moved to a remote area of Alaska for a two year contract….and I took the opportunity to….” There are a lot of ways to spin either time off for education or a change in field/career for the short term and really use it to your advantage.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You can also look into remote opportunities– I wouldn’t be surprised if Alaska (especially certain more remote counties) had a lot of telecommuters in your field.

      You could also go to work for the local doctor’s office and make sure he gets along well with the quirky locals, even though he’s from New York and has never had to rough it in his life, or you could work for the local hot DJ who will later go on to woo an NYC fashionista who is way too good for him.

        1. Question from New York State*

          Haha fun! Oy to Friday as well. This ‘village’ is actually only the 10 people who all work for the same organization as my husband. The closest doctor is 2 hours away, the closest grocery story is 40 minutes away. We’re quite excited to head there! We’re both from Orgeon and looking to get out of the hustle and bustle of NY (although, we’re not near NYC).

          1. Ms. Anonymity*

            I wouldn’t hesitate to ask your current manager about telecommuting opportunities. There’s almost always something you can do from home and you never know until you ask. Even if it’s only a few hours a week, it would be something. I have a friend that just left Seattle and much, much to her surprise, her company asked her to work remotely… from Indiana! Good luck!

      2. Magda*

        Hahahaha! I mentally went to Cicely, too.

        Completely OT, but have you seen [i]Love Is Strange[/i]? I was so ridiculously excited that two NoEx actors unexpectedly popped up!

      1. Question from New York State*

        Very unlikely that I could keep working for my current employer, since it’s with the NY State government, so they won’t let me work for them from another state. I’m kind of stumped at where to go or look for telecommuting work.

  37. CindySF*

    My stressful commute has turned into a killer commute … I’m now getting 1.5 hrs to 2 hrs each way to work and back, and to top it off: today I got cut off (force merged) by someone who drove next to me in the median.

    Love working where I do, but I’m seriously considering moving away from SF and it’s super conflicting. Anyone have any advice for making the move? I feel guilty but it’s getting crazy.

    1. Anoners*

      I think it boils down to dealing with the commute, finding a job closer to your house, or moving closer to your current job. I chose to move closer to my job. The rent is more, but, my god having my sanity and a 10 minute walk to work is worth it! Or maybe there is another way to get to work you haven’t thought of? (I’m sure you have already). I know how terrible commuting is, so I feel for you!

      1. CindySF*

        I’ve definitely considered moving closer, but we kind of missed the best time to move and now rents have gone all nuts with no other faster way to get to work. :(

        1. Ms. Anonymity*

          I would recommend working with a real estate agent to try to find you an apartment closer to the city. Do some serious thinking about your non-negotionables and the max you are willing to pay and turn them loose on finding you something. It certainly couldn’t hurt to try!

      2. Felicia*

        I did a commute like that for 3 months before I moved closer to my job. Now it’s a 15 minute subway ride and it’s wonderful. I’m so much happier and have more time to do stuff.

        1. CindySF*

          I’m jealous! Been doing this over a year and it’s not financially feasible to move closer. The closest apartments to work are about $1k more a month … too much.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Can you take transit? My sister used to work in SF but had a 1.5 hour train ride in to work. Sounds like you have to deal with some pretty terrible drivers!

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        I second this suggestion. Or, if you’re considering moving already, would it be possible to move somewhere outside of SF but closer to transit? When I lived in SF, most of my coworkers lived outside the city, but near BART or Caltrain stations, so they could just drive there and park and then take the train in, which was typically much faster than driving (and cheaper than paying SF rent/housing prices). Of course, if you work somewhere that’s not easily accessible by public transportation, this doesn’t really help!

    3. Jennifer*

      Are you 100% Set In Stone about where you live? Can you move closer to somewhere where you can take BART in or something? That might be easier than changing jobs these days.

      You have my sympathies because I am petrified of driving in SF. People are crazy in the streets.

      1. CindySF*

        We’re not, but I actually work down at Mountain View and live in Oakland (I have a misleading name!). Unfortunately no BART down past Millbrae, or else I’d be on it and the apartments are too much for us.

    4. B in the Bay*

      I have a friend who works in Mountain View and lives in Gilroy near the Caltrain station and takes the train to work everyday. Much more affordable, and he doesn’t drive anymore!

  38. Amanda*

    Does anyone have an opinion on whether it’s worth it to do the “verified certificate” courses from Coursera (versus just taking them for free)? Essentially, you pay $49 and they verify your identity and give you the option for LinkedIn integration to your profile.

    I’m trying to transition into a new field related to the courses I’m taking and am wondering if it makes any difference from a hiring perspective.

    1. Trixie*

      Eh, I think it’s giving away $50. The important part is having experience in the topic and being able to demonstrate you have the skills.

    2. LAI*

      I’m in the education field and I’ve explored some courses on Coursera but I don’t think they are really recognized anywhere yet (as in, I don’t think you can transfer the credit toward most degree programs). Therefore, I doubt they will count for much with employers either. You can certainly list them on your resume to demonstrate your interest in/commitment to a field, especially since you are trying to break into a new field, but I don’t think have them verified or not will make a difference since the point is showing your knowledge.

    3. Puddin*

      I had a friend who paid the $50 and it made some sense for her as she was long term unemployed. Being able to be a ‘verifiable’ student demonstrated that she was doing something constructive with her time, even though the job opps were slim. In our geo area, bootstrapping is highly favored so this technique helped her alleviate unemployment stigma.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      I think Alison might have answered something similar before and her takeaway was that it’s not something that should go on a resume. I’m not 100% sure it was Alison, though.

    5. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

      I completed a free coursera course from a top university, on a topic related to the industry I was trying to transition into. I put it only on my LinkedIn profile (to show my sincere interest in learning about the field on my own), and I was able to mention it in passing during a phone interview- again, as another way to show that although I didn’t have much experience, I was doing lots of things on my own to get there.

      My employer (I got that job) didn’t ask me even for the coursera certificate of completion (free), so I don’t think the $50 is worth it. Use it only to illustrate your passion for the topic.

  39. can't even*

    So yesterday our boss came in and threatened us with our jobs telling us there’s an ad out for our position so and I quote “you know what that means…get another job!” We’re a very small team so we’re 99% sure who is getting the axe since one person in particular has had a lot of issues here. Still. I just sighed and realized I need to start looking myself because I don’t want to work for people who operate like this. Only been here a few months, but it is just ridiculous. Sticking it out until I can find something else but just kind of feeling demoralized today.

    2. some1*

      At least you have a perfectly good answer for the, “Why are you looking for a new opportunity?” question at interviews

    3. Co anon*

      You don’t work in Northern Colorado do you? I know a company that operates like that there.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      My aunt used to say that things like this are a good heads up. So, yeah, upsetting in the moment but good in the long run because you can take action and protect yourself.

    5. Artemesia*

      Even if you are the last person they would replace you need to be gone asap. Hope the search goes well and that this company strangles on their own incompetence.

  40. Assisting Higher Ed*

    Hey Guys,

    So I have been in my position for a year this month and am starting to think about looking around internally in my academic organization. I know its a short time, but people rarely stay in my position (staff assistant) for more than 2 years around here. I’ve been really stressed about work lately and it is starting to trigger some health issues, generally I really like my job and organization, but working for so many people (I assist 5-6 people plus regular office admin duties) is really starting to take its toll and I’m realizing that it really isn’t playing to my strengths. I feel like I’m constantly setting myself for failing as I struggle to juggle so many plates at once. I’d like to find something where the work is more stream lined, even answering to 1 less person would be great.

    Does this sound reasonable? I don’t want to be a job hopper, but this is also my first job out of college and I feel like I’m expected to try stuff out a bit before I need to settle.

    Also does anyone have experience with job searching internally in academia? At what point do I need to tell my manager?

    Any help is very much appreciated, thanks.

    1. Fawn*

      I asked a similar question upthread, so you may want to keep an eye on it in case any of the responses are relevant to you :)

      I’m generally of the mindset that it’s not a good idea to leave a role if it’s starting to get out of hand. I think it’s much better, both psychologically and in terms of professionalism, to get things in order and then begin looking elsewhere if you are still unhappy. If you were able to reduce the workload slightly, could you see yourself sticking it out for another 6 months to a year?

      1. Assisting Higher Ed*

        It is less that things are a mess now and more that I really don’t want to be constantly running into this issue. I am good at my job and my bosses are pretty good about letting me know when I’m doing well and when I’m slipping a bit. There have been a few critical minutes when my manager had to step and help me cover the work load (which she is great and open about). In our meetings she is clear that she is there to jump in if needed.

        Its more that having to answer to so many people at once is really starting to affect my anxiety which I already see a therapist for. I feel like I’m constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop or that no matter how organized I try to be something will slip through simply because there are so many pipelines and it is hard to tell what is critical to what person when many of my people are heavy hitters in the department.

        I just feel like if I was in a role where I could focus on helping a smaller group and really learn their personalities and work styles, rather than always feeling like I forgot someone or something.

        1. Fawn*

          Totally makes sense, and I can understand wanting to leave the kind of role where constantly putting out fires is just the nature of the beast. It’s definitely not worth sacrificing your mental health!

          Good luck with your job search!

    2. fposte*

      I think that’s a reasonable time to start looking. It’s also the kind of position that people often do move up and along from. Unless you’re really close with your manager, I don’t think I’d mention the plan to search until there was an actual job in the mix, and at that point it would be an it depends. So how well do you get along with your manager? And do you know where are the people who have previously been in that position went and how the transitions were?

      1. Assisting Higher Ed*

        We are a very large organization so it is pretty common for people to just bounce around departments and schools internally. I haven’t asked much about how the transitions actually go as I can to this decision just a few days ago and don’t want to tip the wrong people off.

        Personally I have found my manager to be pretty great and supportive while I learned this role and attempt to balance my workload, but I have also seen her be not so supportive to others when personality clashes arise.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I get the sense that you are not looking to be a career assistant and are hoping to move into a completely different role eventually. But here’s the thing: admin jobs have a career path just like any other and what you are doing is “paying your dues”. I am a career executive assistant and my first few jobs were hellish – managing multiple calendars and doing the endless duties of an entry-level department assistant. I worked my way up to higher and higher level jobs and now I work for only one big cheese and earn 6 figures if you include my bonus.
          I totally get why you are frustrated; it can be a real grind not to have autonomy and to feel pulled in a million different directions at once; and if you are only there to get your foot in the door then it’s even less bearable. We just lost a good junior admin because she only took the job because she assumed she’d get promoted quickly into a project management role. That rarely happens here and she quit the minute she realized it was going to be a dead end for her.
          That said, I think it’s fine to start looking, especially internally. Try to get something with fewer people to assist because that makes a huge difference. Good luck; I feel for you! It’s mentally exhausting to be working a job that is not a natural fit for you.

          1. BostonBaby*

            Thanks for the reply. I actually wouldn’t mind being an assistant long term, but I’m also in a stage where I don’t know exactly what I want to be doing with my life. I know that I do like working in Higher Ed, so I’m trying to see if I can find a place for myself in that.

            It really is the frustration of not being a natural fit. I actually like being an assistant (at least now) and get a lot of satisfaction when I have my people’s lives under control, it just sucks when I have 3-4 lives completely under control and then the other two lives decide to go to hell. I think I would really like being an executive assistant, but I’m not there yet in terms of experience.

    3. LAI*

      I think it’s completely reasonable. I used to be one of the 5-6 people who had 1 assistant reporting to all of us, and no one ever lasted in that position for more than 2 years. 1 year was actually more common. It’s just an exhausting role with not a lot of pay. We viewed the position as a jumping off point for people to get some basic office skills out of college, and we were always happy for people when they were able to move on to bigger and better things. Trust me, no one is expecting you to make a career out of that kind of role.

      As for internal job searches in academia, if you are at a large university, it’s unlikely that word about your candidacy will get around unless the hiring manager just happens to be friends with your supervisor. It’s very normal to not notify your manager until you have accepted a new position and are giving your 2 weeks notice. If you have a good relationship though, you certainly could give them earlier notice as a courtesy, like when you are in final interview stages. I wouldn’t do it earlier though because you never know how long your job search will take – I doubt most manager would outright fire you (it’s really hard to fire people in academia) but they might start replacing your duties, hinting that it’s time to go, etc. and it could sour a previously positive relationship.

    4. Ms. Anonymity*

      Assuming you have a manager you report to, why not ask them for help prioritizing your work? You can then start setting realistic expectations of those asking you to complete tasks. I.E. I can’t get to that this week but can have to you by next Wednesday.

    5. The LeGal*

      FWIW – My prior career was in academia. I held many positions at the college. I always told my boss after I saw a job posting that I was interested in and qualified for, but before I actually applied. You have no idea how many bosses told me that “I usually hear from HR, that’s great that you told me, and says a lot about your work ethic.” It’s a know-your-boss kind of thing though. I’ve held a position for 9 months, others for a year, and another for 2 years. I made sure I mastered my old position, and maintained my good reputation before I tried to move on internally. Good luck!

  41. Anna*

    My workplace is dealing with a LOT of change right now. Since May we’ve seen 8 people leave, and two people move in to new positions in the organization. A few on the management team (my coworkers). It’s weird and disconcerting and makes me wonder if I should look elsewhere. Granted, everyone who left went for different reasons. Some got better jobs, some are resigning due to being burned out, but I’m trying to not panic.

    1. Lucy*

      This happened in my office around this time last year – 15 people (out of a 40 person department) left over a two month period due to either burn out or not liking the direction the new (2 months in) VP was taking us. I held on thinking it was just growing pains, but really wish I had jumped ship as well.

    2. Melly*

      A bunch of people, including myself, have left my old job in the past 4 months/about a year into having a new Director. So glad I’m gone. The place is crumbling.

    3. The LeGal*

      Do you want to stay? If you do, this is a great opportunity for you. You are probably now one of the resident experts on the team. You can show your drive and motivation for helping out while under-staffed, train new staff, or pick up projects in an area that you’ve always wanted to expand into professionally. Good luck!

  42. anon718*

    2 questions:

    1. Should include a job off the books on my resume? It would obviously never show up on a background check. It’s so frustrating because I took the job when I was 19 while going to school FT and also working on campus, and I had really flexible hours. It ended up being the most rewarding job experience that I feel I actually grew from. For the record, I’m 30 now, but my resume was stymied by a back injury and over 3 years of unemployment.

    2. Is something like ‘all job candidates must live in either [insert three contiguous somewhat recently, yet completely gentrified neighborhoods here], or very close by in [general area which is undergoing rapid gentrification]’ some form of ridiculous discrimination, or am I looking too far into it? According to the ad, it’s not real estate/rentals, delivery, or anything else that would require an inside-out knowledge of these neighborhoods. It’s a position with set hours that doesn’t mention on-call availability. I applied since my FT job is within the ‘close by’ neighborhoods, and could easily work this job right afterwards, but waa rejected on the grounds of ‘you don’t live close enough’. I live in a not so far away neighborhood completely uncontaminated by hipsters. It’s a PT assistant/recep position.

    I’m quite possibly looking too much into this because this gentrification thing is really starting to cause problems for natives and other long-time residents of this city.

    1. soitgoes*

      1. It depends on the jobs you plan on applying for. Most employers don’t subject their employees to background checks, and they’ve all interviewed people whose primary job experience was serving or bartending. As long as you think your former bosses are good references, I’d say go for it. Being off the books is an issue for your former employer, not you.

      2. It might be a way of limiting the number of applicants if, as you say, it really is a good side hustle for people who already work full time.

    2. Anna*

      That sounds weirdly like a sideways attempt at discrimination, especially if you live in an area with comprehensive public transportation. It’s too bad you couldn’t go back and ask why that’s a requirement. I’m curious to know their reasoning.

      1. anon718*

        At first I thought it was a concern for transit (public transportation is the best way to get around almost the entire city and parking would be unaffordable in the area in question, especially at this pay grade even with another FT job; not to mention a mess of a commute being that the hours start during rush hours). Then I realized that a large number of the residents in the area are transplants, while mostly natives and long-time residents live in my neighborhood. Transplants don’t seem to have a good grasp of “weekend subway construction” (weekend hours are required), or could quickly circumnavigate a sudden “police activity” closure. So I think if there was a transit concern, they’d be much better off going outside their territory.

        And I did specifically state in my cover letter that although I don’t live in their territory, my regular job is but 20 minutes away by transit, with multiple backups (trains and buses).

    3. Anonsie*

      For your second question, yes. I would bet anything that’s exactly what they’re up to. There’s a chance they had some issues with people having commute issues and are now trying to eliminate that by being insane, but I still kind of doubt that’s the whole story.

    4. Anx*

      2. I have experienced a bit of the opposite problem in the past. In the state where I had a license to practice in the public health field, hiring in the more suburban and affluent counties pretty much froze. I could not commute to jobs in the more urban areas because you had to be a resident of nearby counties. There was an actual practical component to this: you need to be able to respond to a natural disaster, outbreak, or bioterrorism. Also, it was a local government position.

      I have since moved out of state and in the four years I have had my license have yet to see an opening I am eligible for when I go and check.

      If this is a private sector business I would be much more leery of their motivations.

      1. anon718*

        Yes, this is indeed private sector, non-health. It’s an assistant position for a startup with set hours, no on-call. I think in this city of great diversity that they migrated to (and yes, I verified this), they only want to be surrounded by “their kind”. They’re really not the only ones, hence the bitterness. I wish I was in the position to smugly say “well if they’re going to be like that I don’t want to work for them”, but where do you think all those residents they displaced are moving into?

  43. Anon for the week*

    We’ve been subjected to a series of senior management “We want to know what you guys are thinking” meetings this week. Turns out what that actually means is “Shut up and tell us you’re happy”.

    1. LV*

      We’ve been subjected to a long survey to gauge “employee satisfaction.” It’s anonymous but you do have to provide your job classification/level (I’m in the govt). This led to a lot of circular conversations:

      TPTB: Hey, you haven’t done your survey yet.
      Me: I have concerns about anonymity since I’m the only person in this organization with this job classification.
      TPTB: Don’t worry! All responses provided by employees who are unique wrt their classification/level are automatically removed from the survey.
      Me: So what’s the point of having me do it?
      TPTB: Because it’s very important to us to gauge employee satisfaction!

    2. Perpetua*

      As someone currently conducting those meetings at my (small-ish, fairly informal) company, I sure hope my coworkers don’t feel that way about them. :)

      I dislike pointless management exercises, so I’m sorry to hear about your situation.

      1. Artemesia*

        Even if you are the last person they would replace you need to be gone asap. Hope the search goes well and that this company strangles on their own incompetence.

        1. Artemesia*

          This was a response to something further up the page.

          Re the surveys; I have been subjected to this stuff at least a dozen times in my 45 years in the workforce. Not in a single instance was the effort really sincere — they always spun it so the bigs didn’t have to be inconvenienced. And several times it was obviously not anonymous; I only got burnt once on that till I learned my lesson.

    3. AnonAnalyst*

      Ugh, this brings back memories of ex-job. The company leadership devoted a not insignificant amount of time to trying to understand and improve employee engagement. There were multiple meetings with all of the employees, as well as a very long survey and one-on-one meetings with managers.

      At the conclusion of the process, senior management informed all of the employees that they would not be able to implement any of the the changes employees had asked for (side note: most of the things employees asked for were actually very possible and easy to implement given the organization structure, like increased opportunities for collaboration, better transparency, and more coaching / leadership). Shockingly, while morale was already quite poor at the outset of the process, it could actually get worse, and the mass exodus from the organization increased.

  45. Cherry Scary*

    Anyone have advice on approaching performance reviews? We have annual reviews here in the next few weeks (I’ve already done the written portion) and this is my first time at a job with a formal review process. I’ve only been here a few months, which means that I have an “abbreviated” review form to fill out. Any advice on best practices would be appreciated.
    I’m already planning on asking on areas for improvement (I already know where some are, and since I’m so new it’s semi-understandable.) My mentor also said that a raise would not be off the table? (This is based on her experience, she had a review a few months into her employment as well.) Should I even bring that up?

    1. Trixie*

      I would search “Performance Review” here on AAM, I remember reading some really good tips and suggestions.

  46. Lucy*

    Just got a rejection from a job that I was super excited for and thought the interview went beyond well (as in, every person I spoke to was booked for 30 minutes but we ended up going over because we had so much to talk about). Trying to shake it off and go back to the drawing board, but it doesn’t help that I currently work in an extremely toxic office and this was finally feeling like the light at the end of the tunnel. I was joking with my SO that the reason I hadn’t heard anything was that they were waiting to reject me on Friday…..guess I was right….

    1. Red*

      I got a rejection for a writing gig this week (an actual employment position, rather than a query rejection) that I felt like I had a good shot at. Didn’t even get a call-back for some freelance work, sigh. It always stings.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Sorry! You are fast. I deleted it a minute after it was posted because it’s the same letter submitted to me earlier this week that I already have a response half-written for (and I try not to publish stuff that was also posted in an open thread). I emailed the author to make sure she’s okay with that … but in general, I ask that people not post stuff here that they also emailed to me in the last week or so.

    2. Natalie*

      Ha, I saw the reply but not the original and was so intrigued. Happy it will be published later as a column.

  48. Manders*

    I have a question about networking. Next week, I’ll be attending a sci-fi/generally nerdy convention. It’s aimed specifically at women, with a lot of panels about how to break into traditionally male industries. While it’s not really a professional convention, there is a section where you can speak to recruiters, and there will also be some panels where people in various industries talk about how they got started (including one about my sort-of-pipe-dream career).

    What’s the networking etiquette when you’re at an event that isn’t strictly professional? I would like to make some connections, but this doesn’t seem like the type of even where you’re supposed to hand out business cards.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Maybe not business cards but I don’t see why you couldn’t get their contact info and reach out that way. Talk them up a bit and then find out how to reach them later. Although, I’d still take some cards in case someone has one and wants to exchange.

    2. Gwen*

      Can you have a more personal contact card? Pretty much whenever I go to conventions (or even art fairs) all the creators have little business cards or flyers that direct people to their portfolio/etsy/whatever, and it’s really helpful to be able to track down people whose work you enjoyed (esp if you weren’t able to buy something at that time). I don’t know if your pipe dream career is related to something creative like that, but even if not, I don’t think something that links to your online presence would feel out of place! Plus, you can always NOT give any away if it seems like it doesn’t suit the culture, but you can’t magic some out of thin air if people are exchanging cards and you did’t bring anything :)

    3. Sorcha*

      I wouldn’t hand out business cards at a con, no. I go to a lot of cons, and if I meet people at them that I would like to stay in touch with, we swap social media usernames (Twitter, LJ, Tumblr etc) and I add them there as soon as possible. Twitter in particular is good for this, and a lot of cons have Twitter accounts for events that you can follow too.

      1. Squirrel!*

        But in this case, she is saying there are recruiters at the events, so there are professional people. You may not want to swap your @SLEAZY4WEASLEY handle with someone you want to have a professional relationship with.

        2. brightstar*

          I love @SLEAZY4WEASLEY and am now spending my lunch break trying to come up with more unprofessional HP handles.

      1. Manders*

        GeekGirlCon in Seattle. It was a blast last year when I was attending just for fun, and it looks like there are even more professional panels this time around. All the cons in this area seem to have at least a few recruiters, but this one is specifically focused on helping women break into gaming, tech, comics, publishing, etc.

    6. soitgoes*

      I’d say business cards are fine. On an anecdotal level though, I’d advise you not to get your hopes up. I’ve had so many opportunities extended to me at casual networking events and pop culture things, and they ALL ended up being scammy, vague, or borderline inethical (asking me to do SEO stuff that was full of lies or plagiarized work).

    7. GH in SoCAl*

      I work in TV and I go to a lot of these events because I am also a fangirl at heart. I have some “personal” cards from Vistaprint that have just my name and email address on them, and a cool graphic, that I exchange with peers and fellow panelists so we can connect afterwards. I really enjoy talking to aspiring people at these events and will answer as many questions as I can in the hallway, the bar, etc. If I really connect with someone looking to break in, I will exchange cards with them, but that’s really rare — usually I just urge people to seek me out on Twitter or FB (under my real name). That said, I’m not in a position to hire, so my relationship to aspiring writers is more mentor/mentee than recruiter/candidate.

      As with most networking, *most* of the contacts you’ll make will be with peers at your level, and these will be your network as you all break in and move up together. So I do think you’ll want something pocket-sized and pre-printed to hand people you meet — it tends to be more effective than @handles jotted on scraps of paper torn out of the program book. Imho.

  49. LV*

    I had an interview last Monday that I feel went really well. I had a good rapport with the interviewers and when I asked what qualities separate someone who would be good at the job from someone who would be excellent at the job, they named 2 and the lead interviewer (who would be my boss if I got the job) said, “I can tell from our conversation that you have both.”

    They told me that they would make their decision by mid/late October, so now I just have to wait and try not to get antsy about it. Job openings in my field and at my level are not terribly frequent right now and it seems like a great place to work. If you have any good vibes to spare, please send them my way!

  50. AnonAdmin*

    My phone interview last Friday went well and I have an in person interview next week! I was told that over 400 people applied for this job, 17 were phone interviewed, and fewer are scheduled for in person interviews. It’d be a big change for me, I’d have to move, sell my house, etc, but I’d be closer to family, making way more money, and it’s directly in line with my career path! I’m going to study like heck this weekend for my interview.

  51. EM*

    I just got an email about scheduling an interview…for a job I applied to in FEBRUARY.

    That is definitely the longest time I have ever had in between applying and being contacted.

    I am also waiting to hear on an internal job. I think my chances are good but you never know. They said they hoped to make a decision by the end of this week, but I know that’s not going to happen.

  52. Laura B*

    What is everyone’s favorite productivity tool? I don’t know if it’s a commitment flaw, but I tend to need some new tool or technique to keep me fully motivated every six months or so. I’ve tried running to do lists on legal pads, nicer notebooks, and most recently the beta version of this schedule: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/77516971/the-week-dominator-a-beautiful-canvas-to-tackle-go?mc_cid=b4858afdab&mc_eid=7f8e61f339. The schedule helps, but I still feel like I could better manage my time. So I’d love to here your secret productivity tricks.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I just use one of those giant, desk-sized calendars. Not fancy, but I can write deadlines, meetings, and to-do lists all together on it, then see everything at a glance.

      1. Lizzie*

        Me too! I also use my Google calendar to keep track of the same information on the go, but I adore my giant paper calendar.

    3. ProductiveDyslexic*

      WorkFlowy. I have nested lists for everything, always available via the cloud, on all my devices.

    4. LibKae*

      Two of the world’s biggest whiteboards for me. On one I keep track of all the projects I’m working on, all the problems I need to deal with, etc. It lets me tell at a glance what I need to do that day, which is a huge help (I’m an out-of-sight, out-0f-mind type person). On the other I have the next six months scheduled out so nothing sneaks up on me.

  53. Captain Poultry*

    I am in my first job where billable hours are a thing. I don’t work on projects long-term – usually it’s same day turn around. It wouldn’t be so difficult to track my time spent on certain jobs except for the fact that I’m constantly interrupted and never seem to be able to complete one task from start to finish without having to divert my attention. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good time management/tracking system or app? The ones that I’ve played around with so far seem more like project management applications and are too cumbersome for my purposes. I need something simple and to the point, almost like a stop watch that I can start and stop as needed, but for multiple projects. Thanks for your help!

      1. hildi*

        agreed! I don’t know if it’s in reference to anything but I love it. When I was in high school I worked at a tourist attraction and we had a trained farm animal show. Several of our performers were chickens and one duck, so I have developed a bit of affection for fowl. Contrast that with my coworker that worked at a turkey processing plant and I think I got the better end of the animal on that one.

        1. fposte*

          I believe it’s a reference to an improv routine involving unlikely superheroes in Whose Line Is It Anyway, but I love the fact that it’s elicited a story about star duck turns.

          1. Captain Poultry*

            You’re good! That is exactly where it came from. I’ve been using this handle for over a decade now and I don’t think anyone else has ever figured out its origin. Gold star for you!

    3. Schmitt*

      I just use a piece of paper – write down the time when I start work, and every time I switch projects I note the time and the project I was working on.

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      I just keep a journal in NotePad. I write the time, and what I’m working on. When I need to change projects, I write the time again. Along with each time and project ID, I add any notes that I think could be useful later. At the end of the day, I can just look back and see how much time was spent on each task, add it up if it’s really fragmented.

    5. Anonsie*

      I had to do start doing this exact thing (with the same issue– I sit in the front so I am interrupted constantly) and I just made a spreadsheet that marks 5min intervals and kept it open at all times. Every time someone came by I’d switch over to it real quick and mark the time (just takes a second) and then mark it again when they left. Then when I clocked the hours later, I’d just subtract all those interruptions from the total time.

    6. Anon. Scientist*

      Old fashioned but it’s always worked for me: small spiral-bound notebook. On left side, I write the date once. In the middle, time, then project number (or just 1 word so I can recognize it). Every time I switch gears, I write the time and new project. At the end of the day, I tote up the hours in the space on the right.

      Next day, write new date and start over. At the end of the month, go through all those project notes and do a little summary (starting on the back of the notebook and working backward) of what I did for future reference. When both sides meet in the middle, get a new notebook.

  54. Allison*

    I’ve been having stomach issues, and decided to take a break from my energy shots in case those were causing or contributing to the problem (I’ve also been taking ginger tablets which seem to help). As a result, I’ve been a zombie all week. My green tea tablets are a poor substitution, and compensating with more sleep hasn’t been an option. I’m really hoping this gets easier.

    1. Allison*

      Oh crap, forgot to relate this to work! Work has been really hard without the stuff, I’m trying to stay productive so I don’t get in trouble, but my team seems sympathetic to what’s going on. They know I’ve been sick and this is an attempt to get better.

      1. Squirrel!*

        Have you tried any simples fixes, like taking some melatonin before bed, wearing an eye mask or ear plugs, or getting a new pillow? It sounds like you should improve the quality of your sleep, if you can’t improve the quantity.

        1. Allison*

          I have been taking steps to improve my sleep, that’s been on my mind recently. My air conditioner was a Godsend over the summer, but naturally using it in October isn’t an option, so I’m planning to invest in a white noise app to drown out some of the shenanigans that take place outside during the night. And I’ve been using aromatherapy which is really helpful.

            1. Diet Coke Addict*

              Songza (the app) also has a number of white noise options that are awesome for sleeping and work, actually–they actually have one that sounds like a coffee shop, so you can work away while pretending to be surrounded by chatting people and whatnot.

          2. Diet Coke Addict*

            My husband and I got a white noise machine as a wedding gift and it has been an absolute godsend. It was like $20 at Bed Bath and Beyond and comes with six different “types” of noise. as well as a sleep timer and a few other bells and whistles. It’s fantastic to smooth out the edges of noises from everywhere else and we’ve slept much, much better ever since.

            1. Allison*

              Hm, how big is it? Maybe I’ll drop a couple bucks on an app now and ask for a white noise machine for Christmas.

              1. Diet Coke Addict*

                Hmm–fairly small. Maybe six inches in diameter? It’s sort of circular-shaped, a slightly dome-shaped disc. It’s small enough that it doesn’t take up much space on the nightstand, and small enough to travel with.

            2. Artemesia*

              I live near a highway and so highway noise lulls me to sleep but before that we had a white noise machine and I sometimes take it with me traveling when I know I will be a place that is noisy like say Paris or Florence. The waterfall sound or light rain sound really helped me when I was having trouble sleeping and needed to be up for work. One benefit of retiring is that I can be up reading till 1 or 2 and sleep in if I want — although I still have that wake up at 5 and have trouble going back to sleep problem. I have ambien for when I must get a night’s sleep — it really works for me without hangover and I only use it once or twice a month when I know I have to be up and running all day and can’t cope without a night’s sleep.

      2. matcha123*

        I’ve done the same thing. I try to get up once an hour to use the bathroom and while I’m there, i do some jumping jacks and stretches. It helps wake me up for a bit…

        1. Allison*

          I have a tiny bladder and seem to need the bathroom every hour, and I just hope no one notices. But yes, getting up and walking around does help.

    2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I have a friend in a similar situation, and he switched to the Hansen’s energy drink, and it didn’t irritate his stomach. My solution when I’m really for serious trying to drink less Monster Ultra Zero and Diet Coke is to just have 8 cups of green tea throughout the day… its not a horrible way to go.

  55. Elkay*

    Not work related but where is the cat picture this week? I’m fairly sure a few readers put Alison on a PIP a few months back demanding more cat pictures…

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I might be phasing out cat photos — not entirely, but just using them when I have a particularly great one. They were starting to feel repetitive. But they’ll still be here sometimes!

      2. M*

        I think the cat pictures on the Sunday free for all thread would be okay and just not on the Friday work post. Unless you have one of your cats working…

      3. louise*

        Hm, coming into work on time feels repetitive too, but people count on it! ;) I would vote for continuing, were this not an Alistocracy*. Interruptions in cat pictures to allow for goat photos is acceptable.

        *Now I want to live in a country you run. It would be far saner than most actual countries.

      4. A Non*

        Aw. There is no need for special, just kitty.

        (But it is your blog. And I really need to get my own cat.)

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Yeah, but then she’d have to have an open thread about every 2 hours, to deal with all the pictures people would send in.

  56. Kinkajou*

    I found out recently that I have been taking the role of a higher ranked position for well over a year now (much greater responsibilities, work load, stress, and higher level decision making) and should now be eligible for a promotion to that level. I want to ask in my annual review, but my direct manager is sure to find the suggestion ridiculous. He is my manager practically by has little to no involvement in my actual work– while the people that do work directly with me all fully support me and say I’m doing great, this manager is always hostile and dismissive. Yesterday he came to tell me I’d been inappropriately wasting time all day talking with a coworker because he didn’t know I needed to work with this coworker on something… He just assumed we were chatting all day, I guess. In reality I didn’t get to take a break yesterday (not even to eat) until well into the afternoon.

    I’m just not sure what to do. I know the proper channel is to talk to him about the promotion, but I am afraid of where that will go and I don’t know what to do if he shoots me down. Keep doing higher level work with a much lower level title and salary? I have projects here to which I am committee with people who do appreciate and support me, and I don’t want to leave those projects or lessen my role to adjust back down. I’m not sure how to handle it if I broach the subject and he reacts poorly, especially if he starts bringing up mistaken issues like yesterday.

    (and since I know it will be suggested: I do not want to leave my job for a lot of complicated reasons I won’t get in to, so “get the promotion somewhere else” is not my first choice. Even if I did, what do I do in the interim here ifthus conversation goes south??)

    1. fposte*

      So if you don’t bring it up, you’re definitely going to be doing higher level work with a much lower-level title and salary anyway, right? How okay with that are you? I think it’s worth making a brief case for the appropriateness of your job bring reclassified myself, but I also have been around long enough to shrug off manager hostility.

      1. Kinkajou*

        I mean, I’m going to bring it up. But I dont know what to expect to happen or how to handle it if it doesn’t go well.

        1. fposte*

          If he says no, ask if it’s revisitable after six months. If he tantrums, stay calm and quiet and don’t get drawn into an argument.

          1. Red*

            I’d add start looking for a new job at this point, you shouldn’t be subjected to a colleague’s tantrums in a professional environment.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      In addition to talking to him, perhaps you should encourage the people you work with to talk to their management. Can you do any sort of end-run around him without sabotaging what you already have?

  57. Cruciatus*

    I hate that I work in a place where 2 people can just start ignoring a person from one day to the next and people act like this is normal or say, at least about 1 of them, “that’s just how she is” and have that be a seemingly fine explanation. No, no one should have to interact with people they don’t like–but we’re talking, if they see me in the hallway, they turn their heads the other way (and we all once ate lunch together daily for 8+ months). Really? And my crime? Just being boring–though they never actually asked me any questions or tried to get to know me in any way from the start. It’s no loss on my part, but I am really more bothered by the lack of reaction by everyone else–other people seem to fawn over these people and don’t understand when I say, “Oh, I don’t really care for her.” I guess I should be happy I’m not being spit on or yelled at or worse….but, gaaah, I can’t wait until one of my job applications actually comes through! I’m ready to leave this clique-ish hell hole!

    1. fposte*

      It sounds like an unpleasant situation, and her behavior is silly and juvenile. That said, I don’t think there’s ever a gain from saying you don’t like somebody in your office–is it possible that she’s going for the silent treatment because that got back to her?

      1. Cruciatus*

        Oh no, because it came way after. I started out saying nothing, but someone asked me specifically (they were perhaps the only person who didn’t realize I was “shunned.”) and I thought about going all Switzerland, but these people refuse to acknowledge I exist–so no, I don’t care for her/them. At the time I figured I was really being quite magnanimous saying only that…

        1. fposte*

          Ah, then I’m with Cosmic Avenger. Nice ’em out. (However, I would still discourage stating you don’t like people in the office. Just reject the premise of the question.)

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I just act super-nice, like Ned Flanders nice, to people like that. If they’re trying to get a rise out of you, it drives them NUTS. If they’re just mean and they keep it up, it makes them look completely insane to everyone else who happens to be around. The times when this can goad people who are trying to be bullies into all-out fits make it totally worth it. :D

      1. Colette*

        Taken to extremes, this could result in a very happy, enthusiastic one way conversation where you go on and on about how good it is to see them, what a beautiful day it is outside, etc. while they sit there stoically.

        Probably more amusing to imagine than to do.

        1. Cruciatus*

          When it first started, I did something like this. I didn’t go on and on, but I was all “hi!” but it lost appeal after a while. As I said, people still choose those people over me (which is the stupidest sentence I’ve written in a while, but there it is). No one thinks THEY are the insane ones–which is what bothers me the most. I’m not looking to be super popular, but I’m nice, pleasant, don’t clip my nails at work, ask how others are and don’t change my mood at the drop of a hat. But I’M the problem. It’s like I’m in an alternative universe (that I am trying desperately to escape from). I know it seems weird to say to others that I don’t like her but this place is SO WEIRD that it wasn’t weird I said it. The person is a friendly (to me) colleague and wasn’t horrified or anything, but just didn’t think that there was any reason to dislike her (she has since changed her mind through her own experiences, but she’s just one person of many…)

          1. Colette*

            Yeah, it sounds completely dysfunctional. Your best practical choice is to ignore it, tell yourself it’s them not you, and get out as soon as you can.

        2. LCL*

          I have done this. Doing it is even more fun than imagining it. Be prepared for them to lose it and get really irate.

    3. Artemesia*

      I am always just stunned to read this sort of thing. I have worked with people I don’t like and I am sure there have been people who have not liked me, but I have never been in a situation where people weren’t generally civil to each other. It just is mind boggling to me that adults behave this way in a workplace setting.

  58. Anon for this one*

    Some very credible public and private sources have been reporting that my Fortune 500 company is being shopped to merge or be acquired, with specific targets named. A couple of them are well-known toxic workplaces (like, my grandmother has heard of them and knows they’re bad places to work).

    This scares the bejesus out of me.

    I’m wondering if I should polish up my resume or ride it out and see what happens? And how soon after a deal is made do layoffs typically happen? I’m a single parent in a high COL area and can’t be unemployed for even a minute.

    1. Stephanie*

      Personally, I’d polish up your resume. You don’t have to do an aggressive search, but just polishing up your resume and putting feelers out might give you some piece of mind.

      1. Bea W*

        Agree with this. You don’t want to jump ship too soon, but you want to be ready if you find you have to do so.

    2. BRR*

      Don’t wait. If you see anything you really like I would apply now. You don’t have to go full-throttle but start the engine.

    3. Jubilance*

      Polish the resume & start looking now. Always better to be prepared just in case, and who knows, you could wind up finding a much better role somewhere else.

      1. Bea W*

        The saving money part if a good point! Mergers usually mean layoffs as the newly merged company eliminates redundant positions (or just positions that ended up under their dart on the RIF dart board).

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I vote for polishing up the resume and seeing what is out there.

      I have seen layoffs start very shortly after the merger is complete and I have see it take a year or two to start laying off people. No set pattern.

      Don’t get scared, it won’t happen over night. I think of it as annoying work place drama- as you learn tidbits of information here and there. Get an action plan and go with it.

      If you have a sane boss, touch base with him on a random basis. Find out what the latest news is and find out what his sense of things is.

      1. Artemesia*

        The first people to jump ship when this happens are usually the ones who have the most options. I’d be getting in a position to move so that you aren’t in a pack of similar people all casting about for similar things. I was one of dozens in that position after a merger. While I landed well, plenty of people didn’t. Many of them might have done so if they had searched early rather than when everyone was in the same boat. (we didn’t have much warning, but there were signs we should have heeded.)

  59. AnonEngineer*

    So I’m three months into my first professional job, and I just had my “orientation” two weeks ago. I also still haven’t been assigned a project manager, and I haven’t gotten any of the mentoring that is outlined in the employee manual. I keep getting reassured that they are going to figure out what to do with me, but nothing has changed. I’m in the consulting industry, and getting enough billable work each week has been tough.

    How long should I try to ride this out before I start looking for an exit? I want to succeed in this job – partially because I got the job through a connection who spoke really highly of me, and partially because there are some amazingly smart people here that I could learn a lot from – but it’s not my dream field or geographic location, and the pay is a little below market.

    1. J.B.*

      Start looking. You are fortunately very mobile at this point. Also if you know anyone who knows the culture there (I’m thinking someone who has been there a while but isn’t a decisionmaker or in the industry who works with your folks) see if they can tell you what’s going on.

  60. AVP*

    We have an alarm specialist fixing our business alarm system today, which means setting it off to test it every five minutes or so. She keeps laughing and saying “I warned you this would be loud!” which is great except that whoever set this up, um, didn’t warn anyone else this was happening. Argghhh. My head.

    1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      The second-greatest day at my last job was the day I convinced my boss to let me get rid of the alarm system. The greatest day was the day it was actually disabled.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      When we had someone working on our alarms, we not only got an email about it the day before, but someone also walked around and provided everyone with disposable ear plugs.

    1. Stephanie*

      Ugh. There’s one that opened here in an already glutted market (both of the big state schools have law schools that are already pumping out too many graduates) that claims a 100% bar passage. Rumor is that they flunk out everyone who they figure won’t pass the bar and teach exclusively to the bar.

        1. Stephanie*

          Yeah, pretty much. Basing this off what my lawyer friends tell me. The really non-selective places will admit tons of people and then have very strict grading curves (such that people flunk out or lose scholarships) and very much teach toward the bar (of course, these same friends said their schools went a little too far in the other direction and taught too much theory).

    2. Katie the Fed*

      There’s a great segment from last week on “Last Week Tonight” with John Oliver about for-profit colleges in the US that will make your head explode.

  62. GrumpyBoss*

    I have a former coworker who just won’t go away.

    He was senior to me and had a lot of influence. It just so happened that our roles required minimal interaction, so I never really dealt with him. And a good thing too because I really found his behavior obnoxious. He was always leading with this qualifications in any statement he made and constantly looking for validation in the form of having his butt kissed.

    He came into some money and decided to quit. Good for him. I wasn’t sad to see him go, but a lot of people were. But here’s the problem: even though he has left the company, he is still always here! Shows up to let everyone see his new Porsche, to see if anyone wants lunch, etc. the same attention seeking behavior that made me not like working with him in the first place! But now he is distracting people and since he isn’t working here anymore, how can I tell him to GTFO?

    1. Chocolate Teapot*

      Are you sure you don’t work for Wernham Hogg (the company in the UK version of The Office)? I seem to remember David Brent doing something similar in one of the Christmas specials which concluded the series.

      I would probably develop a major interest in the photocopier whenever he came around.

    2. Squirrel!*

      Could you just simply say that he isn’t allowed in the building for any reason due to confidentiality reasons or something? This allows him to still be friends with the workers, but keeps him from being an active distraction.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If he is interfering with business/work flows then he has to back off.

      I assume he is going into areas that are not usually accessed by the public? Maybe you can say if he is not transacting business then he needs to leave.

      Try to frame it in a manner that would be applicable to anyone who showed up way too often.

      One time I had luck saying “You might want to watch yourself, Bob, people are starting to complain that your frequent appearances are preventing them from getting their work done.”

  63. J*

    Compared to your resume, how is your LinkedIn profile different? I just revamped my resume and I’m wondering how I should change up my LinkedIn profile, which is pretty generic. I don’t want to put it all out there, but I’d like to look appealing to recruiters and prospective employers (esp since I apply to several jobs via LinkedIn).

    I tried to search the archives for this question, but I wasn’t finding anything and Google points me to “LinkedIn experts.” I’m sure this has been asked before, but I couldn’t find it, please point me in the right direction if so, thanks!

    1. Perpetua*

      My LinkedIn is kind of a shortened version of my resume, with many things left out, and most things rephrased . The highlight is on the most recent and relevant experience (I’m also a fairly recent grad). However, I’m currently on the other side of your question, so to speak, as someone doing recruiting for my company, so here are my 2 cents… From what I’ve seen, most postings let you upload a resume separately and I’d definitely do that. I agree with you about not wanting to have it ALL out there, but I’d try to avoid generic descriptions and go for highlights, presented in a more personal manner (as it should be with a CV and a cover letter as well, at least in many industries).

    2. Shermie*

      For LinkedIn, I make use of the uploading files function. For example, I uploaded two publications that I helped produce.

    3. C3PO*

      I’m probably doing it all wrong, but, for me the difference is a more casual tone and a narrative format. “What do I remember about working here?” instead of just bullet points of duties and accomplishments. I try not to be too long-winded, though — even with a scroll wheel people eventually tire of paging down. :-) I try to keep the industry buzzwords to the skills list, since that’s where someone looking for them is most likely to locate them anyhow. I also joined the LinkedIn Groups relevant to my field, and try to keep up with the conversations. (Harder then it sounds — lots of groups with low activity levels allow “business spam” posts which IMHO are worse than silence.)

  64. anon+in+tejas*

    my boss just sent out an email about halloween costumes and giving us the go ahead to wear appropriate ones. a few years ago I wore a cape, headband and belt from my wonderwoman costume over my regular work outfit. what are the best and worst ones you’ve seen at the office?

    1. Nanc*

      It’s been years but when I worked for a university the IT folks all dressed up as “professors” and the English department profs dressed up as “IT Folks.” The dress interpretations were hysterical!

      When my mom was a Social Services manager she dressed up as “backwards person.” We got her black sweat shirt and pants and decorated both sides of the sweat shirt. We took a pair of toe socks, cut out the heel and stuffed the feet and she pulled them on over her sneakers. Finally, we took a cheap Halloween hat and glued (or maybe stapled) a mask–not a scary one, just a generic “person” mask to the back. Her admin lead her around the office walking backwards and she had a blast. She went out into the lobby and the little kids just went nuts–in a good way!

      Worst: the receptionist who showed up as a Playboy Bunny. I sent her home to change and then had to have a little talk about why it wasn’t appropriate. She was in her 40s. I had been on the job for a few weeks. It was quite the awkward conversation.

      1. Windchime*

        I was so shocked a couple of years ago when my friend (who was in her early 50’s) showed me her Halloween costume that she was going to wear to work. It was a purchased costume, a kind of “sexy witch” type thing. The entire back of the costume was sheer, transparent fabric (so transparent that she couldn’t wear a bra with it). The skirt was dangerously short and the whole thing was just really inappropriate for a professional setting. I expressed doubt but she said it was fine. Apparently on the day she wore it, her supervisor made her wear a sweater over it all day because it was so racy.

    2. Frances*

      I’ve never worked at a place that dressed up for Halloween, but my mom works at a preschool and always seems to come up with really cute costumes that are also super practical (the nature of her job means she ends up moving around the building even more than an average teacher, especially on a “special” day like the Halloween party). My favorite was when she went as a piece of candy corn — she put a strip of yellow felt around the bottom of an orange sweatshirt, including padding out the corners to make it look triangular, and then made a pointed hat out of white felt.

    3. Agile Phalanges*

      I worked for a candy company for years, so of course we had a fun Halloween at the office. I liked dressing up in “punny” costumes.

      One year I was “adding insult to injury.” I made myself a cast with the plaster stuff from the craft store, plus had a walking cast (“boot”) and crutches from a previous injury, used some ace bandages and adhesive bandages, plus added a few bruises with makeup to basically have fake injuries all over. Then I wrote insults on stickie notes and put them all over myself.

      Another year, we had awards for cube decorations as well as costumes, and I went as a fairy goth mother, and dressed (and had makeup) all goth, but with pink fairy wings and a fuzzy pink boa. I gothed up my cube, plus added a few fairy-like touches.

      The year after I graduated from college (as an adult), I wore my graduation cap and gown, and added a donkey ears headband and tail, and was a “smart ass.”

      Other good ones I’ve seen at work were a very tall woman as Frankenstein’s monster, and a shorter woman as the bride of Frankenstein; a “cereal killer” (lots of gory makeup, plus bloody knives stabbed through cereal boxes), two guys that were best buds (and actually did have matching shirts which was pretty funny) dressed as twins, etc.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, I love those! I once dressed in black and purple with a green bow in my hair and called myself a Grape of Wrath.

    4. Lizabeth*

      A person that had a head transplant – bandages around the neck with the appropriate documentation from the Natonal Enquirer article on a piece of cardboard hanging from the neck. Hospital gown optional.

  65. Kat M.*

    Oh man, I have been waiting for this open thread ALL WEEK. I work on the campus of the Texas hospital recently famous for treating a patient with ebola. I am so tired of the media circus, the worried phone calls from family, the panic-mongering on social media.

    No question here, I just wish people would grow some common sense and let the rest of us do our jobs. :P

      1. De Minimis*

        Yeah, we aren’t too far from there and they are letting us know to refer any media inquiries to our public information officer.

        I thought I overheard some of our people talking about possibly having to go over to Africa [I guess] and help out. One of them said, “I’m okay with going over there, so long as I don’t get Ebola.” Well, yeah.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Cable news. They’re basically whipping people into a frenzy. If you watch any of the coverage lately they seem almost glad that this happened because it gave them an opportunity to do breathless updates idiotic opinion pieces.

      There’s a reason I only watch BBC or al Jazeera America for news coverage anymore.

    3. Elizabeth*

      I know a couple folks in the IT offices at corporate HQ. Apparently, it isn’t much better there.

      Those of us in Health IT are currently all trying to make sure that our clinical alerts for international travel are working properly.

    4. The LeGal*

      How do y’all like living in Dallas? It’s one of the places that I’m job searching, and I wonder what it’s like to live there as a professional.

      1. Kat M*

        It’s not somewhere I ever wanted to be originally (came here when my husband’s job moved), but it’s a pretty cool town! It’s large enough that there’s something for everybody, you just have to know where to look. I miss the classic architecture and real bodies of water back home, but Dallas is diverse with a great arts scene and plenty of jobs to go around. Can’t beat that.

  66. Natalie*

    So, friend is not happy with his career. It’s skilled labor and he feels like it’s already taking a toll on his body that he’s not okay with. He’s not crazily inspired about any other particular career, he’s just interested in something that would be not labor or retail and has some small amount of interesting work and minor advancement possibility. Primarily he is working for food, rent and his other life interests.

    He hasn’t gone to college but is open to the possibility. I thought of reception, admin, and bank tellering, but I’m sure there are others.

    1. Squirrel!*

      There is some huge post that’s been linked to before on here, called something like “X (number of jobs) that you can make $$$ at that don’t require a college degree” from some advice blog. I wish I could remember more information, but it’s a pretty good post. I’ll see if I can dig it up for you to share.

    2. Kat M*

      My father-in-law quit plumbing when it was taking a toll on his body, and is now a building inspector for the city. If he’s got a skill, perhaps he can get a related certification to inspect/manage/whatever a related process?

  67. autodoor*

    Quick vent: I was reading through the posts on “unlimited vacation,” and after two years in my (first post-grad) job, I’m fully convinced that unlimited vacation is really equivalent to no real vacation. I’ve not had more than a long weekend off since Christmas last year. I took a sick day (I was sneezing everywhere and felt like crap) on Tuesday and my boss said I was “lowering the bar” as to what was acceptable for a sick day. We’re an office of two (just him and me!) and we do consulting, and I am SO burned out and SO over this and just ready to move on.

    1. AVP*

      This is exactly what I would imagine happening with my company if we had that policy. We have a tiiiiny vacation package as is and when a junior person attempts to take any, the bosses roll their eyes and sigh about it the whole time.

  68. Changeling*

    I’m struggling a bit with my job search at the moment. I recently relocated to a smaller city and am trying to break out of my previous social service profession because I’m burnt out. Ive been looking at nonprofit and program support positions at local universities. I’ve had several close calls where I’ve made it to the final round of interviews, but wasn’t selected. I’ve been reading the site religously, as well as Alison’s book and interview prep guide, asking and getting feedback of a rather generic, we selected a candidate with more specialized experience, etc. I’ll keep on trucking, but I’m now looking at temp jobs and trying to figure out how to balance a contract position with an active job search. In contrast to my large former city, where I was able to pick up week-long or day to day temp opportunities when I needed to, here the agencies (who contract primarily with academic institutions) seem to be offering contract positions for a minimum of three months. I’m hesitant to commit to something like that and potentially pass up other opportunities, or worse, have to leave before the contract is up and leave on bad terms with an academic institution that has strong ties to the areas I’m hoping to move into.

    Any advice on navigating the temping waters safely? I’m also someone who feels intense guilt when I have to ask for unanticipated time off and I’m not sure how best to take time off to interview if I were in a contract position. Any tips?

    1. Red*

      Hi, prospective temp! I’m a former temp. The main thing to keep in mind is that you’re not an employee. (Okay, you’re probably your agency’s employee, depending on how you’ll be set up.) Don’t burden yourself with the feeling that you need to be loyal and put the agency or institution before your own needs and desires. Most people will understand that as a temp, your goal is probably not to temp for your whole life, but rather to find something well-paying and/or permanent. Anyone who tries to pressure you to stay without ponying those options up does not have your interests in mind. If you need to leave, give two weeks’ notice even if your prospective employer pressures you and even if it’s before the end of your first “term” in the contract. The manager at your placement will appreciate it (unless they’re the kind of person none of us really wants to work for anyway). Do the same for your rep at the agency. That is the professional norm, and most people will respect you for doing it. They don’t have respect for the person who calls in for an (unpaid) sick day and then never returns.

  69. Jubilance*

    Last week I mentioned that I finally had an interview for a role I was excited about. So here’s an update – I had the interview on Monday, it was 3 30 min interviews. I knew the majority of the people on my interview slate, but this was my first time interviewing as an internal candidate so I felt a bit more pressure to make sure I was using the company terms & whatnot. On Wednesday I got a call from the hiring manager letting me know that the team wanted me to meet with their executive, which is the last step before you’re offered a role in my company. I’m super excited and starting to feel like this will really come through! Hopefully next week I can announce that I got an offer :-) – cross your fingers for me!

  70. chewbecca*

    I’m dealing with feeling behind on my professional development lately. I’m trying to get away from reception positions. There aren’t many opportunities to advance in my current company, and I really want to get away from this place.

    I’ve been seeing a lot of admin positions listed that I’m qualified for, but they include answering the phones. I’m starting to debate on if it’d be worth it to start applying for those and deal with the reception work in order to get experience and then maybe advancing within the company later*.

    I’m really good at the front desk component of my job, and I know I could use those skills to make a really good assistant. I’m just so burned out on answering phones.

    I’d welcome any insight.

    *Note that my point in taking the position would not be to use as a stepping stone. It’d just be nice to work somewhere that there are opportunities to advance.

    1. AVP*

      If you’re looking at smaller companies, I think most admin positions will have at least some element of phone-answering. I can say as a former reception-to-admin-to-something else, the time that I actually spent answering phones was like 15% of my day, which allowed me to really grow in other professional areas and get the job I really wanted. And the fact that I was so good at the admin stuff was what gave them the idea to try me out elsewhere.

      So I would consider applying to those jobs, but find a way to ask about the make-up of the job in the interview. Maybe you would consider it if they say it’s 20% phone work, but you could decline if they mention that you’ll really be dealing with that 75% of the time.

      1. chewbecca*

        That’s good to hear. Currently I get anywhere between 40 – 70 calls a day. But 15% I can handle. Thanks for your input. I think I might start applying for the ones that interest me.

        1. AVP*

          Now that most clients just call whoever they want to speak with directly on their cell phones, the reception desk at my workplace has gone from 40ish calls a day to maybe 5-10. Totally doable!

    2. LiteralGirl*

      Our department’s admins have a phone answering component to their jobs. Truth is, the departmental phone rings 2-3 times a day. I guess the key is asking how much of the day is spent on the phone, do the people you support have direct lines that others call, etc.

      1. chewbecca*

        Ooh, the direct lines one is a very good question. I can’t tell you how many “Yeah, someone called me from this number” calls I get in a day. I’m getting really tired of reciting my “all outgoing calls come up as our main line” speech so much.

        Really, it’s those calls and the people who call and don’t know who they’re calling for that drive me crazy. I’m not a mind reader and if I were, I’d definitely not be working here.

        Thank you!

      2. Bea W*

        This is what I was thinking. Many admins have to answer the phone, but maybe only to screen the occasional call or take a message for the executive they are supporting. It’s not actually sitting at a reception desk and handling the switchboard.

  71. De Minimis*

    So, big week…

    My wife ended up not getting the job. They asked if she wanted to apply to the newly vacant job held by the person that was ultimately hired. We’re thinking no, since in terms of cost of living adjustment it would pay less than the job I have now, and I have yet to hear anything about any of the jobs I applied to over there–we could have in theory floated by for a while on the supervisory job that she’d interviewed for, but it wouldn’t be possible on a lower salary.

    So the good news is we don’t have to be apart, and I don’t have to worry about screwing over my employer, but the job market here really blows for anything involving public health, so I guess my wife is stuck with unemployment/underemployment while we’re here. Just feel like a lot of talent and potential is going to waste.

    One possible development is that someone retired at one of the hospitals my agency operates, and one of their finance staff apparently is going to try for the vacant position. If she were hired, there might be a vacancy within their finance department. I’d definitely be all over that…even if it ended up being a lateral move, it would be a much shorter commute for me, and would be a form of career progression. And the possibility is good that it might be a better position. But a whole lot of dominoes would have to fall in exactly the right way.

    Failing that, I guess we’ll stick around till next fall and maybe then I’ll have enough time in to where I can apply for internal federal jobs in some other location that might have a more robust job market.

    1. De Minimis*

      Oh, and my coworker retired earlier this week, so I’m now the entire finance department for our facility.

        1. De Minimis*

          This shouldn’t be that bad just because a lot of our core functions are done elsewhere, but I’m responsible for a lot of recordkeeping, reporting, and determining our financial status.

          Some things will be better in that things won’t be missed or inconsistent due to miscommunicating or differences in opinion, but it’s 100% on me to make sure things are done right–people at other facilities have offered help when I need it, though, so I think it’ll work out.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I’m sorry your wife did not get the job, but I am glad that your other quandaries have been resolved to some degree. I hope the next round of applications you guys go through is successful!

  72. Mints*

    I realize this is a good problem, but I’m really undecided. Decisions are hard! Okay, these are my prospects:

    #1 Cool company (not top 3 coolest, but maybe top 10 coolest), I think I’d fit in well (maybe this is superficial, but the company has more young employees, and it’d be easy-ish to network) Data Analyst, a short contract, okay pay, slightly boring job, but a good skillset to expand on. I think it’d be really impressive on my resume, and would probably read as higher paying to future job prospects (which would be soon, since it’s temp).
    #2 Project planner, a sort of boring industry, good responsibility and a good skillset to expand on, medium – low culture fit, a good long term plan but probably not promotions within the company, and I think I have to be there a couple years, unsure pay.
    #3 Sales coordinator, a good skillset to expand on, a national company with good lateral and promotion opportunities, medium culture fit, a good couple years probably, unsure pay (this job offer is less of a sure thing, though).
    All three are probably around the same pay range, and all three have similar commutes

    I’d appreciate advice or leading questions! I’m so undecided

    1. l*

      Rate them all from 1-3 (1 being worst, 3 being best) on the following:

      – how much you’d enjoy the actual day-to-day work
      – how you feel about the culture of the company
      – how much you think your current skills and experience make you a good fit for the job
      – how much you think you’ll learn/develop your skills (focus on the skills you think you’ll need in your medium- to long-term career plan)
      – salary and the prospects of it increasing

      …and any other factors you think are important. Add up all the scores, and the one with the highest rating is the best job for you!

      (Then if you are anything like me you’ll choose the one you have your heart set on, even if it doesn’t win on the scoring system.)

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yeah, if you’re disappointed at the selection after you’ve added up the points, then that really isn’t the right one after all.

    2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      If pay is roughly the same and the commute is roughly the same, I’d go with the best cultural fit. I also think (with full caveat that this is just my opinion, not like a statement of fact) that Data Analyst at Cool Company is the most impressive-sounding job on the list. Follow your heart!

    3. C Average*

      I think your ordering of these jobs and your descriptors speak volumes.

      #1: cool, well, easy-ish, okay, slightly boring, good, impressive, higher
      #2: sort of boring, good, good, medium – low, good, unsure
      #3: good, good, medium, good, unsure

      I think you want to go with #1.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I agree with that analysis.
        Take the stepping stones and look for opportunities with Cool Company while you are there.
        Your only drawback is the boredom. Decide to make it interesting for yourself. Make a game of it “how many new names can I learn today?” or “how many department heads can I meet this week?” (May or may not work in your setting but you see the general idea.)

  73. Squirrel!*

    Crap! I got too busy reading before I posted my question. Hopefully it doesn’t get too lost in the shuffle.

    I’m moving soon and going to finish my BS before jumping back into the working world (it’ll be less than one year off, so I don’t think it’ll look too bad). My only issue–and it’s a big one–is that I have 0 idea of where to apply or what I want to do. I have a degree that can be parlayed into any number of different things (Poli Sci with a minor in Public Admin), so I’m not too worried about that. But I don’t want to go somewhere and just have a job, I want to do something that I find interesting and not be bored day to day or feel useless. Any tips or comisseration from others who have been through this?

    1. AVP*

      I’m in a totally different field, but can you think of the activities you enjoy doing and are good at, and then try to figure out which jobs are comprised of those tasks? For example, I’ve always been good at organization and planning things and collaboration and chatting, and I happened into a job where thats basically what I do all day. I think Alison has written about this in terms of her own career somewhere on this site.

      Also…you are probably young. Your first few jobs may be boring or full of crappy tasks. Thats okay…it doesn’t last that long. Look at what your managers are doing and decide if THAT job looks interesting and meaningful to you. Don’t judge a whole company and field on what the entry-level positions look like. On the other hand, if you start out at a place and can’t imagine at all what a career path would look like there, or can’t reasonably imagine yourself being happy doing ANYTHING that anyone at the company does, it might not be for you.

  74. Rue*

    I am a recent grad who has been looking for full time work in a very competitive field for the past few months. I had a wonderful interview earlier this week with a fantastic company in my field. I was there for an hour and a half (!) and I had a wonderful conversation with HR and the hiring manager. The next day, the hiring manager personally emailed me saying that they hired a former intern for the position, but I was the runner up. Following Alison’s advice, I asked for feedback and connected with the hiring manager and the woman I interviewed with in HR.

    I am fine with their decision, and am very grateful to have made it that far in the interview process. The only problem is, this is the third time I’ve been told that I was the runner up. I know the only thing I can do is be patient and continue applying and networking, but I’m starting to get a little discouraged in my job hunt. Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Does anyone have any tips about keeping your spirits up?

    1. Changeling*

      I’ve been getting similar feedback from the near misses I’ve had recently. It can be a mixed blessing to get that kind of feedback, because it always leaves me second guessing my interview performance. I’ve been trying to counter that feeling by putting myself out there more in my field of interest. I’ve gotten more active about attending social and networking events even if only tangentially related to my field. I’m pretty shy so it hasn’t come easy, but now I get excited about these kinds of opportunities. I’ve made some good connections and it reminds me that I can have more agency in the job search process. I try and regularly remind myself that if all of these other people out there got decent jobs, I can to!

    2. Felicia*

      I got told I was the runner up/second choice out of 200+ candidates like 50 times over two years before I found my current job. And I waas actually second choice here but the first choice backed out last minute. In some ways it sucks more than not getting that close.

  75. Frustrated (but feeling better!)*

    I wrote last week that I was discouraged because my husband’s job application materials weren’t that good. Well, last week (on Friday) he applied for a job and actually got a response (via e-mail) the next day from the hiring manager, and it started out, “Great cover letter. Can we schedule a time to talk?” So, yay! I think his cover letter was so much better this time around because he really liked the job posting and was very enthusiastic about the position. The initial phone screening went well, and he’s currently doing a programming skills test. If they like his work, he’ll have an in-person interview. So, here’s hoping!

  76. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Can I put out a PSA that if you’re still using one of those spam-blocking programs that requires someone to fill out a form to email you, you should stop? I’m talking about the ones that send something like this to people who email you (this is verbatim from one I just received): “To control spam, I now allow incoming messages only from senders I have approved beforehand. If you would like to be added to my list of approved senders, please fill out the short request form. Once I approve you, I will receive your original message in my inbox. You do not need to resend your message. I apologize for this one-time inconvenience.”

    Your friends and family may be willing to jump through that hoop, but when — for instance — you are writing to a stranger requesting free advice, they may not be.

    1. JoAnna*

      That is so obnoxious, and there are much better ways to control spam. I have a gmail account and hardly ever get any spam in my Inbox.

    2. Steve*

      I’m a buyer for my company and I’ve actually seen some vendors and sales folks with this in place. I NEVER do it. If it’s something I really need to purchase from YOU, you get one chance with a phone call from me. If I can get it from anyone else, you’ve just lost a sale.

    3. Canadamber*

      That’s a thing? That’s ridiculous. Just get a gmail address and you will never deal with spam ever again.

      1. Evan*

        Though, I check my Gmail account’s spam folder from time to time, after a couple important college messages went astray there several years ago, and there really is spam in it. What about yours?

        1. Canadamber*

          Yeah, same here. Occasionally important messages get lost in there but for the most part it’s just full of all this random crap.

    4. Sabrina*

      I bet these are the same people who forward chain emails with a hundred email addresses on it all ripe for the spam harvest.

    5. chewbecca*

      I had to fill out one of those a while back that included the line “In order to improve employee efficiency…”. Obviously this was for their employees, because it’s definitely not efficient on my end.

      I wonder what kind of programs these people are using that they need to use a program like this. My company used Lotus Notes for YEARS – Just switched to Outlook August 2013 -and even then we didn’t have issues with spam.

    6. Agile Phalanges*

      YES!! Especially if you use that e-mail address for work-related correspondence! Get some spam software and check your spam folder every so often, and let it be.

      I recently took on a new job, and part of that job is e-mailing invoices to people who have requested to receive them that way. The first time I e-mailed someone their invoices (instead of the prior guy doing it), I got that message. I dutifully followed the instructions, but of course had no way of knowing whether she got it, and didn’t want to nag her since the message had said she’d get it. Well, FF a month or so, and of course she didn’t get it (or could easily claim she didn’t get it, anyway), and it wasn’t paid, so I had to call her, get her to manually add me to the whitelist, re-send the invoice, and then follow up to make sure she got it. Sheesh–in a work-related setting, the person who e-mails you legitimately might occasionally change, or maybe someone new will e-mail you in a non-spam context–make it easier for them AND you by not using these things.

    7. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I get a perverse amount of joy deleting them when received in response to our online order acknowledgements. You’d think, being as pro customer as I am, I’d be all like “oh, let’s make sure we fill this out so Mr. Customer can receive his order communication” but ………….. nope.

      Something about beds and lying in them re getting your automatic tracking numbers, okay?

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I have a friend that uses this. No matter how many times I ask I am never on the white list. I can’t get messages through to her when I need to.

    9. Artemesia*

      Wow. I cannot imagine anyone in the job market or networking using a filter like that. There is no way in hell I would fill that out for anyone including family. For a family member, I’d give them a call and ask them to fix it, for anyone else? Not even. This really reads ‘pompous twit.’

  77. Steve*

    One of the guys I work with is hosting a “get together to have a chance to socialize outside the workplace” this weekend. He’s made a point of saying that family members are not only welcomed, but that he wants to get a chance to meet the family and kids “he’s heard so much about.”

    Ugh. As a currently single gay guy with no kids, I can’t even begin to say how much I do NOT want to do this. The fact that my office location in the building has me somewhat segregated from everyone else gives me little daily interaction with most of these folks, so even though I’m very much a part of the team I’m not getting a lot of that daily chit chat that makes me want to meet these people that I HAVEN’T heard all about. Based on the office chatter everyone is planning to go.

    This isn’t one of those mandatory company sponsored events, just a nice guy who seems to be doing a nice thing. But sheesh it’s taking all I’ve got to suck it up and force myself to go.

    Rant/pity party over. Back to what you were all doing.

    1. hildi*

      Ugh, I am a pretty amiable person that generally likes people, but I have to agree with you that I don’t like stuff like this at all. I think I dislike it because it feels so contrived – I hate the morning water-cooler conversations because it’s so…expected. So I get where you’re coming from to not want to do this.

      Do you think it would cause more social headaches for you if you have a conflict and can’t go? I have no qualms about ditching stuff like that, unless you’re in the type of environment that would penalize you for it. Or if you feel like you should go, you could always show up at the very beginning for 30 min and have another engagement to get to. Or show up toward the end. The ice will be broken by the end anyway and it might be less “rawr!” people descending on you to meet the fam, you know?

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        I totally agree with all this. I am not against people, and many of my coworkers are quite nice…but I don’t want to go hang out with them outside of work.

        I think hildi’s advice about showing up late is brilliant– everyone else has already relaxed and settled in, and you can make the rounds before leaving.

        1. hildi*

          Exactly – the tension is broken and people are already into their little groups they are comfortable with. Your arrival will be less pronounced and you can slip from group to group.

          UNLESS! I just thought of this. Unless the host is the type of guy that would see you walk in and holler from across the room, “STEVE! Old Buddy we thought you wouldn’t make it!!” only highlighting you. But even then I suspect people would notice, and go back to their conversation.

          It scares me a little about myself how easily I can lie about this particular thing, but like Anoners below, I’d totally make up an excuse about why you couldn’t be there sooner, etc.

          But if you still don’t want to go, then don’t. Maybe make an extra effort on Monday to walk over to his area and ask how the party was and you hope it was fun, etc.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I am a fan of showing up early. Sometimes I can help the hosts for the event and that busyness makes me feel anchored some what. The thing that I like about showing up early, is that everyone seems as awkward as I am feeling on the inside. If it’s not clicking for me, then I can usually find a reason to leave.
        I am on my own and no kids, so I can relate to that feeling of “I have nothing in common with these people that I don’t know very well.” If they ask you a question about yourself that you don’t want to answer blow by it and ask them a similar question.

        “So do you have family in this area?” Gee, no I don’t. Have you lived in this area very long?
        “Do you have any pets?” Gee, nope. I had a dog/cat/whatever growing up, though. What about you, any critters in your life?

        If you ask other people about themselves they will think you are a fantastic conversationalist.

        Punchline: If you really don’t want to go, then just don’t go. But if you decide to go for a little bit, line up a couple ideas on how to make yourself and other people feel comfortable. And yes, these conversations do remind us of the holes we have in our own lives. So decide how you will handle that emotion when it rears its ugly head. One way is to realize there are not many people out there who feel their lives are complete.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      You admit that your office location means you don’t get to do the chit chat thing, so you are grumping about a chance to do the chit chat thing? Look at this as a good opportunity to get to know the people you work with (you don’t have to socialize with the assorted family members). Yes, it’s not fun to be the only single at a “family-ish” event but how do you even know if you are the only single person on the team? Who knows, you could actually have a really good time.

      1. Colette*

        At best, I’d be lukewarm about this (unless I actually was close to my coworkers and wanted to meet their families), so I understand where Steve is coming from. It’s highly unlikely I’d go to something like this and have a really good time – “acceptable” and “glad I went” would be as good as it would get, most likely.

      2. Steve*

        I don’t mean to sound like I never have conversations with anyone. It’s all very cordial; hallways, break room, potlucks, etc. More so what I meant was that over half the staff in this building work in a bullpen type area where they chit chat as they’re working. So I don’t hear all the “guess what little Swanhilda did this morning,” or “little Pondersleeve stuck a Cheerios up his nose and we spent an hour looking for it,” kind of thing.

        I’m not the only single person, but the other single folks are parents who are taking their child(ren).

        It’s not a huge deal, just something I would totally prefer not to do – and not risk hurting anyone’s feelings.

        1. chewbecca*

          I’m in a very similar situation. I’ve been here four years and I still feel awkward at potlucks. If it weren’t for the two smokers in my department, I probably wouldn’t have made any connections. They walk by me and we get to chat a little while they’re waiting for the elevator.

        2. TotesMaGoats*

          Look. If you don’t want to go because you don’t really like socializing in that format/with coworkers then don’t go.

          However, don’t assume that every conversation is going to be dominated by talk of SO’s and children.

        3. Jennifer*

          I think if I were you, I’d have a last minute car emergency and not show up. Because I hear ya on being the only one without kids and a spouse to talk about.

    3. Haleyca*

      I’m sorry, Steve. As a fellow single person without kids (and also definitely if I did have a significant other and/or kids) I wouldn’t want to do that either. I’m seriously introverted and would rather not get together the motivation to go talk to a bunch of people I barely talk to at work and their families during my time off when I could be spending it with friends or on my own doing things I enjoy.

      I’m lucky my office is only two people, so we can’t really have get togethers. But if my boss ever suggested something like that I would freak out.

    4. Anoners*

      If you don’t want to go, just make up some believable excuse (I totally would). My weekend is sacred, aint noone got time for that!

    5. soitgoes*

      Go and have a drink, then cite “other obligations” if you feel the need to leave early. I’m sure other people are going to pop in and out and have their excuses already pre-planned just in case they end up not wanting to deal with other people’s kids.

      It depends on your personality though. I’m a pretty social person who thinks nothing of “making an appearance” at two or three events over the course of a holiday weekend or whatever. I also don’t feel any guilt over leaving early if that’s what I feel like doing.

    6. Lulubell*

      If it helps, I’d be the straight, single, kid-free woman right there commiserating with you. Preferably by the bar.

  78. Sharon*

    I’m home sick from work today. My current boss is very understanding about time off– he addressed it at a meeting recently by telling us “If you need the day off, take the day off. Give me as much notice as you can, but I get that life happens. If you don’t realize you can’t come in until right before you’re supposed to be here, that’s how it goes.” So I called off right before I was supposed to be at work, and I only feel a little awful about it!

    …Yay?

    But it wasn’t always that way. One old job had a policy that you had to call off at least 12 hours before your shift started, or else you’d be a no-call, no-show. Another had a policy that no one else could call off for you, so if couldn’t make it to work because you were, say, unconscious, that was a no-call, no-show. Another required a doctor’s note to miss a more than four hours of work. If you couldn’t get a note because you couldn’t get into a regular doctor’s office on short notice and couldn’t afford a four-figure ER bill, or if you missed work for something other than a medical emergency– this job had a blanket “three strikes and you’re fired” policy for unexcused absence. Not three strikes within a rolling 6 months, three unexcused absences ever meant you were terminated, regardless of the reasons for them, your overall performance, or how long you’d been there.

    What are the most ridiculous rules you’ve had to follow for calling in sick?

    1. De Minimis*

      We had to call in every day when we were sick, so if you were sick two days you had to call in each day. What made it tough was that we were a24 hour operation at the time, but you could not call in until it was time for your shift, so if you worked graveyard you couldn’t call in sick until around 10 PM each night.

      They would ask “the nature of your illness,” and although I think that was intended to determine if it were work related [so workman’s comp might be involved] many HR people seemed to use that to try to get medical information.

      It was intended to make it difficult to call in sick, in an attempt to intimidate people from using the sick leave benefits they had earned.

    2. some1*

      The most ridiculous sick leave rule was at a former company we had to use sick time in 4 hour increments. So you had no incentive to make a Dr or dentist appointment at the beginning or end of the day and only be absent an hour or two, and that’s a half day you were down for a possible illness.

    3. Golden Yeti*

      When I found out I’d have to take off 3 days–doc’s orders, mind you–due to strep throat, and called my manager to tell her, she actually tried to convince me to come back into work on day 2.

      Another time a manager got sick and was going to tough it out, but a senior manager (who was also a relative) convinced her to go home. She went, and was shocked to find next payday that those days had been deducted from her pay without any forewarning by her relative that there would be financial consequences (she thought sick days were paid).

      Basically, you’re expected to always be there, and if you are sick, it’s viewed as highly suspect, so most everyone ends up working, even if they should be home.

  79. Yet Another Allison*

    I am an Assistant Program Manager, and my boss’s boss asked me to provide performance feedback on my boss (my Program Manager)! I’ve only been in this position for a few months and have no idea what to say. We get along well but I am still learning everything.

    Any suggestions for how to approach a review of your boss?

    1. AVP*

      I would look at Alison’s rubric for how to manage people well and compare him to that. The higher boss knows how well your boss is doing the program management job, but is presumably asking you for your experience of how good of a people-manager he is.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Is this normal in your company?

      I would start by what you have said here. Then I would ask if there was any specific question I could answer.

  80. Canadamber*

    So I’ve just started university in an H.B.com program, and I’m taking an elective in political science. I was thinking of going into accounting, but now I’m not so sure. I REALLY like my Organizations of Management and Political Science classes, and also my economics classes, but all I can think of that would combine the two would be some kind of research position. I want to minor in political science but I’m kind of waffling between minoring in poli sci and taking all of my necessary accounting electives since I can’t do both in the space of a four year degree…

    So. Economics or management and political science. If I want to do like a combination of these two things, should I be thinking of going into research? It would be cool, for example, to study how businesses moving into an area affects the process of, say, gentrification (this is just a random example and I’m sure it’s already been done to death), and similar things like that. Should I be looking at a Master’s degree or a PhD?

    It’s a little early to think of it but I want to know. There’s a university a few hours away that has a Master’s degree program in Political Economy but I’d need to switch my degree to political science to get into that (I would prefer to have a business degree). I’m going to talk to some of the academic advisers to see what they have to say.

    I know that plenty of people here are knowledgeable in that stuff and would be able to tell me whether a Master’s degree is a good idea at all or not (from what I can see, it’s usually not), so if anyone can give any insight to add to my research, that would be much appreciated. :D I feel like this can belong in here since it is work-related, in a sense (can I get a job with this degree/what kind of job can I get). Is there anyone here that does something like that?

    1. Mints*

      I majored in political science, and really really enjoyed the classes, but would basically never want to to post grad in political science. Because while I liked learning about lots of different things, my interest was a lot more broad. Doing a PhD or Masters in Political Science isn’t like “new business and gentrification” it’d be like “The effects of opening up a Super Walmart in 2002 and poverty levels, school ratings, crime statistics and racial demographics in three phases 2002-2005, 2006-2009, 2010-2013 in Podunk, Idaho” (for 100 pages). Like I have very little interest finding this level of detail. I’m only two years out of school, so the jury’s still out on whether I’ll regret it in the future, but if/when I do anything post grad, it’d be more work-focused, especially since I’d be paying for it myself.

      (Also, does your school offer hybrid majors? You might like Political Economy, or an Accounting major with just a political minor [just the fun classes]?)

    2. BRR*

      Would a degree in urban planning be good for this?

      My advice is always look at jobs you want, what do they ask for? Even if they ask for a degree in something, if you have internship experience doing something else they will like that. My degree is in music. The job I applied for asked for English, Communications, or Business. I had internship experience doing this so they considered me. That’s not always the case but a degree doesn’t limit you (that doesn’t mean try and pick something that helps).

    3. Red*

      As a politics B.A. and an accounting M.S., I’d advise sticking with your business degree but taking electives which interest you–especially if you find things like voting games, social choice theory, and game theory in general to be interesting topics. Those mesh fairly well with an advanced accounting degree, too, and will give you an understanding of your business climate, including competitor strategy, that many of your peers (including very experienced ones) will often lack. But unless you want to become an academic, an advanced degree in political science is not really the best route in terms of monetary returns for the costs and time. An advanced degree in economics, maybe merged with another business program, may be a better fit, depending on what you want to do in your career.

    4. Mephyle*

      Political Science Masters and PhDs can be a lot more interesting than that. And I say this as someone who was never attracted by political science when I was studying math and science. Now I edit some researchers’ papers and theses and they are doing fascinating things. There is (for example) a new area of statistical political science, applying data to things that you wouldn’t have thought could be tested statistically. It’s especially interesting when the results upset commonly-held beliefs in the field.

    5. Artemesia*

      An academic masters is of zero value. You need a PhD to be a political scientist and any of the jobs you can get with a masters you can get with a BA and a masters may just price you out of the market.

      Professional masters like accounting, business, social work, counseling etc are often required to advance professionally but in the liberal arts a masters degree is just a stop on the way to the doctorate.

  81. louise*

    Hiring workers for a new site hours away:

    My boss just told me we are about to open a new branch of one of our companies several states away. This expansion is a great thing, so I’m excited. I don’t have to worry about any of the business paperwork or anything – our accountant is handling that. My role is get a crew hired WITHIN 3 WEEKS. Usually the manager of this company likes to interview his candidates himself, I just source talent for him and it’s really easy when it’s all local. I don’t yet know if I’ll be going to the new site or not.

    Anyone have any great suggestions or success stories for doing this all from afar? I have two plans to suggest to my boss: (1) an intensive (and probably expensive…) ad campaign to get lots of applicants, I do phone screens to narrow down, schedule the top candidates for a day or two of back-to-back interviews with hiring manager. Or (2) also allow walk ins with it set up as kind of a job fair-ish event in addition to pre-scheduled interviews. I think that plan really needs me there to facilitate it for the hiring manager. My thought is he could interview individually, maybe give a company overview to a larger group at a time and I could be administering the paperwork. (they’ll be doing manual labor as contractors for a RR that requires testing and background checks and generally a ton of paperwork.)

    Any thoughts?

  82. Katie the Fed*

    I love my b0ss’s attitude about leave (which is much like mine). He expects us to use it and really doesn’t ask any questions as long as work gets done.

    I just told him “hey, I think I’m going to leave early today to go on a long bike ride.”

    Him: “Have fun!”

    I am SO loyal to him too. I’ve been offered other jobs since I’ve worked here but I’ve turned them down, and that’s a big part of it.

    1. Yet Another Allison*

      Whenever someone on my program says they will be out, I always ask if they are doing something fun. They can tell me the details or not (I don’t press for them), but either way it lets them know that having fun is still considered a good thing!

      1. De Minimis*

        My job is that way too, as long as you have the leave. They find a workaround if it’s a key person who is on vacation, or else they’ll just let it wait until they get back.

  83. Prefer not to say :(*

    So I have a fairly new coworker that I’m struggling with. It’s on me to train her and it’s become very clear she’s not cut out for this. How that will pan out remains to be seen–but in the meantime, she has a nasty habit of not taking responsibility for anything–if she asks me how to do something, she will claim a certain process or program “isn’t working for her”. When I walk over and show her how to do it, she claims she tried to do the same thing but her computer wasn’t working. I can believe that once or twice, but this happens multiple times a week. If it was just an annoyance, I could deal with it, but it bleeds over to other areas (blaming me for mistakes she made to our boss)…I’m at a loss. I realize there’s a larger performance issue here, and that that’s not my issue, but how do I deal with it in the moment gracefully and professionally?

    1. Yet Another Allison*

      This doesn’t address the whole issue, but for the showing her how to do something, can you instead ask her to show you how she was trying to do it? Then focus on the difference. It at least ends the “I was doing it that way.”

      1. C Average*

        I like this. I use this a lot when I’m training other people on processes: “No, you’re going to drive, and I’ll talk you through it.” This enables me to make sure their tools work the same way as mine, that we’re using common vocabulary, and that they at least know enough to make it through the steps with some supervision and help. If they can do that, they’ll eventually achieve independence and mastery.

        Whenever possible, I try to get other people to train ME this way, too. I learn way better by doing than by being talked at. I think this is true of many people.

      3. Prefer not to say :(*

        I should have mentioned–I’ve done similar in that context, and the behavior is so extreme that if she does it right the second time (or doesn’t, and I walk her through it), she will swear up and down she tried what I tried and “her computer must not have been working.” Sometimes, I can tell by her explanation where she went wrong and will nicely say “oh, I bet you did x instead of y–that’s really easy to do, happens to me all the time!” to give her an out and she will STILL go on and on about how no, she didn’t do that, she did it the right way but it was the computer! ARGH.

        1. Yet Another Allison*

          Heh. Sounds kind of funny actually. I know it is driving you crazy, but if you take a step back it could be amusing.

          When I realize I can’t get through to someone like that I usually just mumble something like “Hmm, sounds frustrating” and then just kind of walk away or make it clear that I won’t engage by doing something else. If they keep talking, I’ll say “What was that? I’m sorry, I was looking at the latest teapot catalog. Have you seen the Bavarian chocolate version coming out this fall?” or something else work related.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I dunno. [head shaking]. In extreme situations like this, I have been known to say, “Okay, we don’t need to go back through all that. Going forward, each time you do X make sure you are doing step 1, step 2, step 3. What I did when I was new and I still do sometimes now, is I double check my entries before I hit enter. [Or similar double check depending on the task.]”
          Just refuse to back track with her. Keep your comments focus on what to do going forward. When she starts in with “but-but-but”, just say “I understand you had difficulty, I am explaining to you how to have less difficulty going forward.”
          And definitely do not sit down at her keyboard and fix her mistakes. “I will talk you through how to get out of this.”

          As far as throwing you under the bus with the boss, keep track of how many times you have had to show her the same thing. You may need to go have a conversation with the boss.

          A part of me feels sorry for her. Because I actually do have a computer program that malfunctions a lot. And over the last few weeks I have had it happen more and more. Weird stuff- records showing up in triples or quadruples. I enter information and it vanishes. Sometimes the program just locks up. Frankly, I sound like this woman here. But when I remote tech in, they see “Yep, it is just like NSNR said. Bizarre.” You could try saying “Okay, I am going to stand here and watch you do this, let me see if I can catch what is going on.” Then when she starts in with her but-but-buts you can say “I did not see any problem when I watched you.”

  84. Rebecca*

    I’m having a really hard time taking the steps to apply for a new job. As much as I don’t like my current job, I feel paralyzed by fear – fear of failing, fear of the unknown, and fear that I’ll just jump from the frying pan into the fire. The only positive things I can say about my current job are (1) it’s a desk job in an office, (2) the pay is OK, and (3) between paid days off and holidays I get 31 days off per year. That’s it. There are no raises or promotions in sight, no matter what I do, and health insurance premiums just keep going up, while pay remains the same, resulting in lower take home pay year after year.

    In my case, if I fail, there’s no one to help me. I could move back in with my parents, as I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t let me be homeless, but at 51 I’d like to avoid that if possible. So many people say “oh, just do it, if it doesn’t work out, just do something else”. But there aren’t many something elses and with the economy the way it is, I’m hesitant to even try.

    What is wrong with me?!?

    1. Rebecca*

      I need to add something – part of this fear manifested when a local company hired 6 people who do what I do. The crazy manager really only wanted 2, but she couldn’t decide which 2, so she hired 6 and let 4 go after one month! These are people who left jobs to go work at this company, since they have excellent pay and benefits. I found that horrifying. Those poor people had no idea, and found themselves out of work post haste.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        That story is terrifying and it’s totally understandable that it’s giving you lots of doubt– but most managers aren’t like that!

        Maybe you can start slow just by polishing your resume and poking around job openings. You don’t have to apply to anything, but you can build up to it.

      2. AVP*

        wow, that is AWFUL. On the plus side it’s such a crazy way of doing things that I can’t imagine too many other people trying it – ie., if there’s one nutso person in your area who thinks that’s an acceptable idea, you’ve already identified her and can avoid her in the future.

      3. Colette*

        That’s horrible, and I can understand why you’d be concerned about going somewhere else, but most places are not like that.

        One thing you can do is figure out how much you need to save to feel like you can survive for X months without a job and then start saving – not because you can then quit, but because then you have a cushion if you take a new job and it doesn’t work out. It may take a while, but having options is incredibly powerful.

      4. Artemesia*

        I have known several instances of this sort of abuse. I had a student once who was hired after she completed her advanced degree to direct a division at a local branch of a national company giving up a good job to do so and the company consolidated that function a month later totally dismissing the entire local department including its new director. She landed on her feet but it took her awhile; she is super competent.

        When we moved to the city where I completed most of my career , my husband left his professional position where he was doing well and on partnership track and then had a horrible time catching on in the ‘brother in law’ town we moved to where we had no connections. After a year he got two offers; he took one that paid slightly less that he thought would be a good first rung. The man who took the other job, ended up let go a month later when they basically abolished the job.

        So yes, awful stuff can happen to people. But you only get one life and it sounds like where you work is not where you want to spend the next 20 years. Given your anxiety consider moving slowly and do a really good job of vetting the companies and have a plan B. Network like crazy so you know the companies you consider before making a move. Often doing something new is energizing. Don’t let fear hold you back. And if you find once you have unearthed some options that you are afraid to move — you don’t HAVE to move if you feel the security of your current job is more rewarding to you.

    2. NJ anon*

      Nothing. I want to leave my current job. I have come to hate it. But I hesitate because the pay is decent and the commute is good. What’s keeping me from doing it is fear of age discrimination, poor credit (I’m in finance) and my masters is from a for-profit school. Not sure what to do.

      1. Artemesia*

        Age discrimination would prevent them from hiring you so if you don’t get an offer, you are where you started anyway. All the things you indicate are barriers to hiring so you don’t lose anything by putting your best foot forward and seeing what happens while you hang onto your current position.

    3. Kat25*

      I don’t have anything relative to add, other to commiserate. I feel the same way.

      I feel like I am in almost the exact same boat. I don’t really care for my job, I feel paralyzed as well as you described for the same reasons.

      I was unemployed for awhile and this is the first job after the fact. I was trying to stay for the time, and just that fear of not having income. The pay is just OK, a tiny step down from last job. I really need to be making more (for retirement savings among other things) and would rather not keep working until I keel over. I drained most of my resources being unemployed, and am still behind. It turned from being really thankful to finally found a job, to now this isn’t really what I thought it would be, and on to I really want to be doing something else even though I don’t know what that is.

      There haven’t been raises or promotions here either which the company is trying to make out as normal. However, it is tolerable at the moment, and I need the paycheck (who doesn’t). I also don’t have any resources or family to fall back on if anything goes south. It was a good job for recovering from being unemployed and getting back on my feet. But I have had the feeling I need to be doing more, and most likely need to move on. I guess the feeling I am clinging to is being safe for the moment, although no job is safe.

      My field is just oversaturated in my city (anywhere really), and I am not really in a position to move at the moment. I have come to the realization that I don’t really want to do this anymore (don’t have the drive) and need to find a more lucrative career or springboard into something else that I can use my degree for. My degree was creative, and I found myself doing more technical aspects in my previous jobs which I found I really enjoy more. I just haven’t found a way to correlate that in my job search. I just feel stagnant and there isn’t any room for growth where I am, despite being told so when I was hired in. It is also the feeling of not being good enough or of not having the right skills/formal requirements for what is available.

      If I could go back in time and kick myself I would. I haven’t figured out what I need to do with myself or what I want to do. What I am doing is trying to keep doing the best job I can until I figure it out. It can be mentally draining for some of the antics that go on here. I am planning on taking some free online classes, or even coursera or edx classes until I can figure it out. I am using my hobbies and interests outside of work to keep me sane. I am working on learning new skills. I just don’t want to be stagnant anymore.

      While I was thinking of going back to school, but I don’t really want to take on more debt at this point in my life. It probably wouldn’t be helpful anyway. I guess my priorities have shifted, and have to figure out what to do next. I am job searching at the moment, but there really hasn’t been anything that doesn’t involve a pay cut (can’t really afford). I am also trying to mentally take the attitude of ‘what if I lost my job tomorrow, what would I do.’

      1. Kat25*

        Also as reference:
        I work onsite at a client, and my employer is out of state. So if the client was to not renew the contract, I have no doubt that I would be out of a job as well.

    4. Jennifer*

      Me too. I honestly think I’d end up homeless and dead if I had no job. I cannot “fly by the seat of my pants” and “give it a try” and all that jazz. I can’t find anything that looks better and a whole lot that looks worse, so I will stay until I die or get canned.

      I don’t know what’s wrong with me either.

    5. AB Normal*

      I think it would help to change the way you look at the job hunting process:

      You don’t need to accept any job offers you may end up receiving. Or even accept requests for in-person interviews unless you have a good feeling about the opening after talking to a recruiter over the phone! If your current situation isn’t great, and/or there is a possibility of a layoff in your future, it can’t hurt to start looking and networking. Apply when you see something that might be a better fit / offer more opportunities, ask as many questions as you can during the initial phone screening to make sure it’s worth taking time off work to interview, and go to an interview only when you see potential there.

      Seriously, it’s silly to feel paralyzed by fear. Realize that you have more control than you think — especially when you currently have a job, and can easily remove your candidacy as soon as you see it’s not a good opportunity. Why not see what’s out there, and decide later whether it’s a good idea to jump ship or stay and continue searching for a better job?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      If you don’t try, then you are totally correct there are no “elses”.

      Fear of failing- know the difference between what is a stretch for you and what is over the top for you.

      Fear of the unknown. Read. Talk with people. Research. Knowledge is power. Lack of knowledge is debilitating.

      Fear of jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Well this is Fear of the Unknown dressed up in another costume. Learn something about picking employers. Learn some red flags. Decide NOW that if you happen to fall into the fire you promise that you will get yourself out of the fire. Promise yourself that.

      Remember that you were NOT in the group of the six new hires. Do you realize what outstanding luck you had there? That is amazing.

      What’s wrong with you? Nothing. You are a normal and thinking person. Only a silly person would not be concerned about this type of setting- no raises, no promotions, insurance going up and up.

      Read less news. Seriously. It could be pulling you down. Use your reading time to be selective about your inputs that you chose to look at. Read things that tell you how to do something as opposed to things that tell you how bad everything is.

      When you have a negative thought, stop yourself and make yourself replace it with a positive thought. Think about things you can do and figure out how to make those things happen. If you think of something you can’t do, drop it like a hot potato and move to thinking about something that you can do.

  85. Gwen*

    How do you research/vet good professional organizations to join? I’ve found a few local orgs by googling, but I’m having a hard time figuring out which ones are actually worthwhile. (I’m in marketing/communications, if that helps!)

    1. Gwen*

      Probably would be useful to add – I’m looking a little bit for network-building purposes but primarily for professional development. I have attended events for some local young professionals groups which seem good from a social perspective, but not so much on the talks/workshops/development side

      1. Lynn Rainham*

        As someone a similar field (PR), a lot of these organizations will let you attend their events for a “non-member rate”, or if you ask they will let you in to try a cheaper event. If you think it’s worthwhile to keep going after your sample event then it’s up to you. Consider going to a networking event before a professional development event just to get a feel for the organization and what their values are.
        Also don’t be afraid to reach out to leadership – a lot of these are volunteer based, and you want to see if there is honesty and commitment from the top.

    2. HR Manager*

      Ask a few respected colleagues in that field. Also, some organizations are happy to have you ‘try out’ an event or two. Maybe reach out and see if they offer anything that you can sit in on to gauge if you would like to become a member?

    3. Karowen*

      I can’t speak for actually vetting professional organizations, but as a fellow Marketing/Comm worker, I’ve joined IABC (and also PRSA, but that’s what my degree is in – if you’re not doing Public Relations-y stuff it may not be a great tool for you).

  86. AnonToday*

    I’m a college student. I had an interview in June for a potential spring semester internship. I was told they would be sending along my paperwork shortly. I still don’t have the paperwork.
    I’ve been looking elsewhere just in case things fall through and a few weeks ago I was offered a different part time position at school until the summer. This comes with a firm written offer. I contacted company A about the new offer and how I would like to change my availability to summer instead. At the time, I hadn’t heard from company A for about 3 months. I still don’t have a formal offer, but they say I’m still on the schedule for January and should expect a written offer shortly. Would it burn bridges to push back that at this point that a summer internship would work better for me? I do like company A and I can see myself working there when I graduate so I don’t want to put things on a bad note. But it works better with my school schedule and other firm offers to wait.

  87. Lizabeth*

    How do you tapdance around not bad-mouthing your company/former company in interviews when they are completely @#$##up?

    I sent Alison an email this morning about this and just realized (duho!) it should go here. So here goes:

    I get it that you don’t do this but how do you tiptoe around the fact the parent company is screwing around big time when it comes to paying its vendors and that’s the main reason you’re leaving? I like my job, I like my boss and our division but the parent company is really out of whack. I have told my boss “if you ever leave, I’m gone…”.

    If no vendor complains about non-payment, they’ll let it slide 6 MONTHS before thinking about paying it. I have a really good relationship with my vendors and if I get nowhere about finding out when they will get paid, I give them the PTB phone number and say “call and lean on them, i.e. we’re not sending you your stuff (sales materials) until we get some money.” Most of the vendors I use are small businesses – they don’t have the capacity to “float” loans (non-payment of bills).

    This state of “cashflowitis” has been going on for about 5 years with no real solution coming from the home office (and no raises, either). They’ve done the two day a month furlong on the employees for a year about 5 years ago and I’m surprised that they haven’t tried doing that again. Health insurance prices keep going up so that eats away at the take home pay. No paychecks have bounced but I’ve just about had it and have started revamping the resume and portfolio to start seriously looking.

    Suggestions? TIA!

    3. Lizabeth*

      And I just discovered that they haven’t been paying service contract fees for the color copier…sigh. And we need this to produce sales material to make $$. Can I go home now? (head hitting keyboard)

    4. PK*

      Can you come up with another reason for why you’re leaving that focuses instead on why you want the new job, other than just “it’s not my current company”? That’s essentially what you’d be saying. For example, I just got a new job where the main reason I was leaving was because I was unhappy with the direction the company was going and my schedule. However in the interview, I focused on why I would love the position I was interviewing for, and basically told them, “Currently in my job I do x, yand z, but my favorite part of my job is x, so I’d love to be able to focus on that full-time.” This wasn’t a lie either– I really would! But I didn’t mention the downsides of my job as a reason to leave– everyone has those. The reason you’re leaving is just another way to ask, “Why do you want our job?”

    5. Golden Yeti*

      You could say, “After some time there, I have realized that my values are different from the values of our head office.” Which would be true, as they don’t value prompt bill payments and you do.

      You could also approach it from a responsibility angle. “I don’t feel head office acts as responsibly as they could in certain areas.”

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Less words. A LOT less words.

      “I really enjoyed my department and we all got along well. There seemed to be something going on at corporate. I am looking for a stable work environment. I take pride in being honest and being fair in doing my daily tasks.”

      OR

      “Actually, I love my work and my department. I get along well with everyone. My boss will provide a good recommendation. However, there seemed to be some changes in the wind that may not bode well for my old department. I grew concerned. Out of this concern, I began looking around to see what else is available now, and that is how I became aware of the opening at Your Company.”

  88. Anonymoose*

    The short version: What management software/techniques to you use to keep track of your work assignments?

    Lately, I’ve found myself getting stuck on work assignments because it requires receiving an answer from another co-worker, or waiting for them to complete part of the assignment, but sometimes I forget about it while I’m waiting for them to answer so I forget to follow up with them, no matter how many paper or word doc “to do lists” I make myself. I have about a dozen assignments like this, and I’m looking for a system that can help me manage it all, where I can see all my assignments in one place. Does anyone have a system they like to use, or a piece of software they like?

    1. Nanc*

      Do you use Outlook? You can set up a task and have it give you a reminder either on the day it’s due or before or after.

    2. ProductiveDyslexic*

      KanbanFlow — it’s a kanban board app. Essentially the idea behind kanban is that you vizualize your workflow in order to minimize work in progress, or in your case keep track. Each task has a tile, and the board has columns going from left to right, with columns further rightwards being further toward completion. Typical columns would be to do, to do today, in progress, and complete. Maybe in your case you could have columns for tasks sent to particular coworkers that you’re waiting to hear back on?

      1. Cherry Scary*

        Similar to this, there is a site called Trello that I used to use as a production-focused student org. Every project was a card, and you could have multiple users that you could assign cards and follow-up dates. It would email reminders and such. If you can get more than yourself on board, could help!

  89. Brett*

    Happy to report that our office is functioning much better under our new director. He is making a lot of changes to focus our workload, having 1 on 1 meetings (first time every since I started here 7+ years ago), and trying to redefine our roles to match what we were hired to do. Still no chance of any pay increases, but better work environment helps.

    On the almost bizarre side, I attended a conference last week where I was just supposed to be learning new things about tech in government. Instead, the ongoing issue with major national attention inside our jurisdiction meant that I was talking to all sorts of people including conference organizers and even a brief word with Tim O’Reilly. I was asked to do a roundtable discussion, and high level representations from three national foundations and our former state secretary of state showed up (and she was representing a former federal sec of state).

    I’m just a programmer. It was very intense to be involved in something like that.

  90. esra*

    Happy Friday everyone,

    I have a question about cover letters when you’ve been laid off. Usually my cover letter talks about why I want to work for the place, where I’m at currently, and maybe a couple applicable accomplishments.

    But now that I’ve been laid off, I have no idea how to phrase what I’m currently doing in the cover letter. I feel like saying I’m currently not employed would be pretty unattractive?

    1. Jubilance*

      Can you talk about what you did in your most recent role plus whatever experience you have that’s relevant? You don’t have to explicitly say “I’m currently unemployed but when I had a job I did X”. Instead maybe try “In my most recent role as chocolate teapot administrator, I was responsible for X, Y and Z.” and then continue on.

      1. esra*

        Hmm I like that. Graphic design can be a fussy, shallow industry, but that phrasing should work.

  91. Anonyby*

    Since I posted too late last week to get an answer, I’ll ask again this week…

    What’s a good speed for someone to prepare mail-outs? I’ve been working on them the last several weekends and while I think I’m working at a pretty good clip, I’d like to see what others think.

    For the ones I’m doing, there’s two pages (from separate stacks) that go into each one. Everything gets folded and stuffed by hand, and our postage machine only goes one at a time and does not seal them.

      1. Anonyby*

        I got about 300+ done in maybe 4.5 hours a couple weekends ago, but I know I bombed when I had 560 of them. I just got them folded and sealed, not stamped, in what was probably about 5 hours of work time.

        1. Bea W*

          For doing everything by hand, I would not expect a much faster pace than 1 per minute. 300 (not +) in 270 minutes is 1.1 per minute. At that pace, you’re looking at about 10 hours of work, so I think getting the 560 folded and sealed in 5 hours is going at a good clip, that’s not quite 2 per minute (1.87).

    2. Bea W*

      Are you working alone on this? It will go super quick if you can set up an assembly line of co-workers (collate and fold, stuff and seal, run through postage machine). If you are doing everything by yourself… there’s only so much you can do. How big is this mailing?

      When we had manual stuff like this on one project I worked on, we’d book a conference room, and everyone would pitch in. We also found out that our printing/copying vendor could do this work for us, and we started outsourcing some or all of it. It was just not cost effective to have anyone stuffing that many envelopes or putting together large mailings.

      Do they have to go through the postage machine? Since the machine only does one at a time (ouch!), it might be easier to purchase a bunch of stamps. They are now self-stick, no more getting high off the licking. :D

      1. Anonyby*

        It’s just me doing it–weekend receptionist and low person on the totem pole. It doesn’t happen very often, though. The largest of the sets was about 560 letters to go out, the others were roughly half that. And as far as cost effectiveness goes, I have a lot of downtime so it makes sense to give a project like that for me.

        And sadly, I don’t have the authority to purchase stamps. The machine isn’t so bad, though. One of the quickest parts of the process! I just got my start at a company where you could put in a whole stack and just let it go, so even if it were only five letters I’d be getting annoyed. lol

        1. Bea W*

          I hear that! The first place I worked where I was doing a lot of mailing and shipping had one of those machines. Having to do one at a time would drive me batty very quickly. I would not expect that you could get 560 letters out in one weekend just doing them by yourself, not without a lethal number of paper cuts!

          1. Anonyby*

            lol Starting when I was a kid, my mom would bring me in for statement days at her work (when I already had the day off from school or camp). Back then you had to match the statements to yellow cc tags by hand, and if everything matched then you’d fold them and stuff them in envelopes by hand. I got pretty good at hand-stuffing envelopes quickly from that, with minimum damage! Though I was spoiled by having a machine that could handle a lot of mail and seal the envelopes.

            At by the time I was hired on officially in college, they had moved up to printing scanned copies of the tags with the statements, though they still had to be checked and folded by hand. :)

    3. Anonyby*

      I timed myself with today’s stack, just to see what my rate is (though this was admittedly on the faster end for me).

      I ended up with a rate of roughly 87 envelopes/hr. That was even with clients coming in and agents needing help. And even me being OCD about stacking and numbers… Go me! I’m thinking an even 60/hr is probably closer to what I do when I’m tired and unfocused.

  92. HappyWriter*

    Long time reader & lurker here :-) I have a question about the appropriateness of sending an updated resume after already having given the hiring manager my “old” resume.
    Here’s the deal: A former coworker called me out of the blue and asked me if I would be interested in working for him as their Communications Manager. It would be a completely new role to the company, so no job description. He gave me a high level overview, then asked me to meet with him to talk more about the position, the company, etc. It was an unexpected call and I expressed that I wasn’t sure I wanted to give up freelancing (which I do full time now), but that I’d be willing to at least meet and discuss.
    So, I brought my existing resume, which is tailored to writing and editing, to our meeting “just in case.” After meeting and discussing the finer details and responsibilities of the job more–which turned out to have a significant PR role–I was definitely interested, so I gave him a copy of that resume. He told me there wasn’t a firm timeline on hiring because I was his top choice and that he would have to talk to HR about the process. In our last email, he said he would be in touch.
    It’s been just over 2 weeks and I’m still interested in the job–and feel my resume could be better tailored to show that I possess the additional PR experience that would be required for this particular role. Would it be appropriate to send a follow-up email to let him know that I’m still interested in the role and have updated my resume to highlight some of my PR skills, in case he would like to share that HR/others who might be involved in the hiring process? (i.e. I know he knows I have the skills, but I’m worried others won’t)
    Or should I follow the AAM Golden Rule of “don’t call them, they’ll call you”?

    1. BRR*

      I wouldn’t and the reason is a resume is to get you an interview. Sending a new resume isn’t going to alter your chances. Your former coworker already wants you to have the job. If they have a competitive hiring process (bringing in other candidates) it sounds like you would for sure get an interview. You can use the time then to explain your PR experience.

  93. Zillah*

    Ugh, so I could use some advice. This has been covered here in the past, I think, but I can’t find the letters and interaction is always good anyway.

    So I’m currently working a short-term job to help finish up a grant funded project. I love it – the people are great, the work is fascinating and fulfilling, yay all around.

    But.

    There’s another woman also working pt doing the same thing I do. Our schedules currently overlap by one day a week.

    And she’s just… Nice, but checked out. She’s constantly talking about her husband and kids, she complains about the work and is generally pretty negative, and she voices a lot of frustration with our supervisor for how she gives feedback on our work (which I’ve found to be very clear, concise, and respectful).

    Which I’ve just been shrugging and ignoring, overall.

    But I was in twice this week with her rather than once, and I noticed something that I’m not sure whether I should be mentioning to my boss. I’m pretty sure that she’s padding her hours by 30-45 minutes every day. Do I have any obligation to say something or should I just play dumb if it comes up?

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      I wouldn’t say anything unless you can show how it’s directly affecting your work. You don’t know how common it is or if she’s got a special arrangement with the boss. Either way, MYOB – until it truly does become your business.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The trouble with irritating people is that they just make us just want to report them for something/anything.

      No, do not volunteer anything. If you are asked directly, then answer directly. Statements that start out “I am pretty sure that ….” are not strong statements. Answer the question that is asked. If you do not know then say “I saw things that did not make sense to me but I cannot say for a fact that X was going on.” OTH, if you saw something first hand and know it to be true, then say that.

  94. Brit in US*

    Hi,
    Question for you all…not having grown up in the great US of A, I sometimes wonder if I’m accidentally being rude, especially in corporate America. I’m pretty sure my Mum told me growing up that ladies don’t have to stand when people enter a room. So (possibly being a bit lazy) I tend to stick in my seat. But my question is this; should I stand when I meet someone new? Does it matter if they are higher up than me? Is it rude to shake hands sitting down while the other person is standing? The whole thing seems a bit awkward- we had a fancy lunch at work a while ago, and everyone at the table was introduced to a higher up and did this weird stand, bob a bit, sit down again thing when introduced. And if I’m in my cubicle and someone comes to talk to me is it OK to remain seated? I don’t have a chair to offer them, but the dynamic can feel strange if they are standing and I’m not.

    1. A Teacher*

      No solid answer here because it really does depend. When people walk into my classroom during prep, if I’m behind my desk, I don’t always stand. Just depends on the context of the relationship. Same thing at dinner–formal or informal and what your relationship is with the person you’re meeting. I’d even argue its probably somewhat of a regional thing.

    2. Traveler*

      The US doesn’t have one universal culture – it varies by region and by city/country, etc. and then it can vary even more when you’re talking about certain sectors of the work force and power dynamics. I would say standing when you meet someone new to shake their hand is pretty common though. Other than that it really depends. Follow the cues of others and you’ll learn it eventually. That’s how we all learned.

      I don’t get up if someone I know comes to my cubicle/office to talk to me, though. That would be strange and overly formal IMO. They expect they’re going to stumble on me busy and doing work.

    3. Colette*

      I think if you’re being introduced to someone (and will likely shake hands), it’s less awkward to stand so that you’re roughly the same height. But I don’t know that there’s a rule about it, I’d just feel strange sitting while talking to someone who was standing (if you’re in close proximity).

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I do a half-stand from my chair if I’m being introduced and need to shake their hand. I’m not sure how many people would expect you to stand up completely if you’re sitting at your desk.

    5. Adam*

      I grew up near the west coast and still live there and was never taught this sort of etiquette ever existed. I found out about it later but I don’t really know of any place where it’s strictly adhered to. Certainly not over here. And I understand the rules vary like you ALWAYS stand when a woman enters the room but may not necessarily have to when a man does, and it can vary depending on whether you’re in a social setting or a business one.

      What I personally follow is if I’m meeting someone for the first time I be sure to stand up and shake their hand, and remain standing unless there’s a motion to sit.

      If someone comes to my desk I remain seated and the person can continue standing or pull up a chair.

      So I guess watch what people around you do? I agree with others that there are bound to be regional differences.

    6. HR Manager*

      When I have to shake hands, yes I stand up. Not sure it’s a rule so much, but I feel it’s appropriate, and presents a certain formality. Also because I am quite short and the person would have to be bending over very uncomfortably.

    7. Karowen*

      To be fair, I’ve always felt that awkwardness too – And I’m born & raised in the US. I tend to go with, if it’s a short conversation with someone that I’m meeting for the first time, I stand up and shake their hand, and remain standing until they leave. If I’m going to be having a meeting with them at my desk and they come over while I’m seated, I tend to remain sitting. It may not be the most polite thing to do, but I don’t think anyone’s going to fuss over it either way.

      The exception here would be people with over-inflated senses of self. So to be safe you may want to stand while shaking the hand of someone senior to you. :) (j/k, mostly.)

    8. hildi*

      My training on this comes from my time in the military. We were taught to stand when anyone of a higher rank entered the room. This was done both in a large group (someone actually calling the room to attention, where everyone snapped to attention together) and individually when someone higher ranking came into your office or was greeting you. So I’ve carried that with me (minus calling the room to attention, which I kind of miss doing) that whenever anyone that’s not my immediate coworkers comes into my cube, I automatically stand to greet them. But like everyone has said above – it just sort of depends on that particular context and the context for whether you should changes each time. But I don’t think you can go wrong as a general rule to err on the side of standing up or making a halfway attempt like in your scenario.

    9. Anonsie*

      If other people are all getting up, it does look weird if you don’t. And when you’re introduced to someone new it’s generally considered good form to at least get up halfway (the weird bob thing you were seeing) when you shake hands.

      I don’t get up when someone comes to my desk, though.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I always stand when meeting someone new. To me, I do not care if they are Joe Lowestpeon or Mr CEO. I stand.
      I stand if others with me stand up- gender (mine or new comer to the group) does not matter.

      Mostly it is rude to shake hands while sitting. Try to stand. If you can’t stand up for whatever reason, say “excuse me for not standing”.

      If your coworker/immediate boss come to your desk, no, do not stand. If they are going to be there a bit, grab a chair from some where. If your boss has two chairs ask if he would like to move the conversation to his office so you both can sit down.

      At a fancy lunch keep your eye on the boss or senior person. Do as they do regardless of genders of anyone involved.

  95. Brett*

    But just now got something sucky.
    Back in the 9/5 open thread I posted about my low salary being used to justify lowballing other positions with lesser duties.
    Well, they just posted those new positions just now. They lowballed the postings. We are talking 30%+ below median for those positions in other agencies. $35k for a job that _requires_ database experience, research experience, 4 year degree + 2 years experience, and specialized software skills. They are never going to hire these.

    1. AVP*

      Eek! Are you in a low COL area?

      Hopefully they won’t get too much interest and will have to readjust if they don’t hire anyone.

    2. Bea W*

      If you’re looking for a CDM, you’ll never get one for that salary. That’s laughable. I suspect it’s also laughable for other positions with those requirements, even in a low COL area. Lowball is an understatement.

  96. Ms. FS*

    I’ve never commented here but am a fan and read every day over coffee. I wanted to get your take on whether I’m crazy to want to leave this job:

    I like my boss, she works with my style and she gives me raises every year, sometimes more than what is budgeted for the organization in general. I’m at a non-profit that provides fee-for-service type activities, so there is no threat of losing that grant, and I don’t chase money to fund my salary. I work from home (which is great for me, but isolates me from the rest of the staff who works in an office). I go in to the office once a week (which financially is about $4000/year with maintenance, gas, etc.). I love most of my duties, and I excel at them. I’m recognized in the sector for my expertise and have a great professional network. I make a great salary that is pretty high after comparing to similar nonprofit positions.

    So here is my downside – I travel at least twice a month, sometimes for a week or more at a time. I have a young child at home who has special needs and a husband who has an unreliable sporadic schedule that takes him away from home as well. The stress of childcare arrangements is intense and the financial aspect of commuting once a week is getting to me to. But on the other hand, my job search is slow because my knowledge is very specialized and there aren’t a lot of other, similar paying jobs in my industry. So – do you guys think I’m crazy for wanting to leave this job? I mean, how often do you find a job like mine that you love, a boss you love, a salary that’s great, etc?

    1. Traveler*

      I don’t think you’re crazy for wanting to leave – it’s understandable with the childcare issues, but I would recommend not leaving. Unless you think you could find another job where you can work from home, and there’d be no commuting/travel. If you’re already very specialized though, you might be waiting that out awhile.

    2. fposte*

      It sounds to me more that you may be just wanting to see what else is out there than wanting definitively to leave. The downside to your current job is a reasonable one, and I can see exploring the possibility of finding a position that has similar good things without the bad thing. It also sounds like you understand the benefits enough that you may decide to stay with what you’ve got if there’s not a competitive alternative.

    3. PK*

      Is traveling absolutely crucial to being in your position, or are there others that might be able to take on the full amount of traveling, if you asked if you could phase out your travel responsibilities? If you’re very specialized, would other jobs you’d potentially get also involve travel? But I understand why you’d want to leave– it sounds like you might be gone for up to 2 weeks out of the month. That’s a long time to be away from your family!

    4. BRR*

      Are you going to be able to find a job that gives you what you want? If you wrote out a wishlist for a new job, do those positions exist?

      1. Ms. FS*

        OP here. I’m one of the go-to for presenting and for industry meetings at my organization, so my travel could be reduced somewhat, but not a whole lot. At least, not enough to make it not be my problem anymore.

        I don’t know if I will be able to find a job that gives me what I want. So far, I’ve only found a few that I’m qualified for that also pay the same salary. The problem I am running into is that I’ve got all the great skills (people management, project management, presentations, professionalism, strategic planning, etc) but a very focused regulatory knowledge. So for other similar jobs, I have the skills but not the content knowledge. This I believe is what is reducing my options significantly.

        Thanks for the responses. I think I’ll continue on my path of seeing what is out there and biding my time for the right fit. And it looks like I’ll be biding my time for a while yet.

        1. fposte*

          I think in general travel is one of those things that bumps up compensation, so I wouldn’t be surprised if you had a choice between accepting the travel or accepting a lower salary.

    5. Sarahnova*

      I’m gonna throw this out there: could your husband get a job with more stable hours and less travel? I don’t think you’re crazy, but your job does seem to have a lot of good, so I would explore all the options.

      And I admit, it makes me itchy that so often, it just seems to be the default assumption that the woman will change/take the hit. But I don’t know you or your husband’s lives and could be totally off base. Good luck.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      You like the employer, so what about seeing if there is another position you could take in the company?

      Have you told anyone about the situation? It’s a long shot but maybe if your employer knew you were not comfortable they would want an opportunity to transition you to something else before you up and resign.

      I do agree that your willingness to travel is part of what you are being compensated for, so something with no travel might pay less.

  97. A Teacher*

    So I can’t tell a funny office story, I teach, but felt I’d share this small chuckle from presentations today. While doing his career prezi one of my students started talking about how genealogy and obstetrics are related, the only problem, it was totally gynecology and he even had the right word on the screen. He realized about half way through his first sentence but he going with it. Gynecology, genealogy, its all relative I guess.

    2. Bea W*

      Gynecology, genealogy, its all relative I guess.

      As an amateur genealogist, I chuckled at this.

    3. Blue_eyes*

      Another teacher here with a funny (and genealogy related!) word mix-up story. After I had explained to my 5th grade students about a family tree project we were starting, one student raised his hand and asked, “What if one of your family members is diseased?” I blinked at him a few times while trying not to laugh and managed to use a neutral voice to ask, “Do you mean deceased?”

  98. Thanking An Exec*

    I recently had a reason to write to a C-level executive where I work and ask a question. He sent me a friendly reply and asked me to follow up with his EA if I wanted to schedule a face to face meeting to discuss it further.

    Silly question, but would it be good or bad to reply with, “Thank you!” I want to thank him for taking the time to respond to me, but I know that C-level executives get a TON of emails so I don’t want to clutter his inbox with something nonessential.

    1. Bea W*

      Depends on your company culture. People where I work notice when you don’t do this. You can expand on it a little bit beyond thank you, and let him know whether or not you will be following up with his EA to schedule an appointment, and if not why.

    2. AVP*

      Say thank you. No one* will blame you for being polite but if he expects politeness and you don’t show it, he will notice.

      *Okay a few people probably will but it’s a minority.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Yeah, this is going to be really culture-dependent. At my work, people send thanks/OK/got it for just about everything. But I know a lot of places that would consider it to be email clutter.

      1. Thanking An Exec*

        In my workplace, the culture varies a lot between departments. He’s in a department I don’t work with much, so it’s hard to say. I also haven’t decided whether or not to schedule a meeting with him – I’m interested in the subject but don’t want to take up his time. Maybe I’ll respond with something short like, “Terrific! Thanks!”

        1. GH in SoCAl*

          He offered to schedule the meeting, so I’d say don’t be too shy about “taking up his time.” Folks at that level know how to protect their own time. If he didn’t want to take the time, he wouldn’t have offered. Take him up on the f2f, you’ll learn something interesting and maybe make a valuable connection going forward.

          And your response of “Terrific! Thanks!” sounds right on the nose to me. I like its ring of genuine enthusiasm.

  100. QC*

    So I have hit a moral conundrum about job searching and my current company. I have been at my position for 4 years managing a very small team in a manufacturing environment and I love my job and all the people behind it. I have developed a good working relationship with my coworkers and bosses and generally feel like a productive member of my company as a whole. However due to the location of my facility compared to the rest of the company and my desire for more responsibility and experience that I can’t get it without moving 500+ miles.

    I stared my job search a few months ago but really kicked it into gear last month after my major project for the year was completed. I am having good luck in applying and even interviewing with jobs but with some of the things happening with my company I feel guilty with possibly leaving. I am not directly involved but I feel like I need to stay around to support the group. On the other hand I am chomping at the bit to gain responsibility and experience that I just can’t in my current position.

    Would my current job search hurt my standing with my coworkers and company? Or should I just continue to look for a job that better suits my aspirations?

    1. PK*

      It sounds like you’re not leaving in the middle of a big project, so from what you gave, would be a good time to leave. How you’re feeling is normal, though. People will always miss their co workers and team and feel somewhat responsible for them, but you have to do what’s best for you and people will understand (and if they don’t, they’re not reasonable). I think as long as you’re being discreet about your job search, it shouldn’t hurt your current standing.

      1. QC*

        Thank you, you are most likely correct. Hopefully I find something soon-ish and I am able to give my managers plenty of notice that I am leaving. I don’t want them to be stuck with an open position for long.

    2. fposte*

      What do you need to stay around and support the group for? (asked non-rhetorically) It doesn’t sound like there’s something finite in the works, so is this feeling going to keep you there forever? Is that maybe just the way you’re presenting your discomfort with change?

      1. QC*

        I don’t have anything in the works atm and it is painfully obvious with the lack of things to do. (I have asked my managers for projects but they are either out or wrapped up in other things) It is most likely how I am presenting my discomfort with the change as I do like my job. Thank you.

        1. fposte*

          That may have sounded more critical than I meant it to be–if you like the people and the situation, it’s quite natural to find leaving difficult. And right now any new job is all hypothetical–there’s no one there that you care about, or snicker at jokes with, or have gotten coffee with. So it’s hard to compare it with a job where all that is vivid and daily, even if it is time to go.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t blame you for feeling a bit guilty. I think anyone you work with would feel that way. And they would leave anyway, in spite of the negative feelings.

      It’s okay to have feelings on things. What is not okay is allowing your feelings to run your life. You are saying you can do better, then that is what you should do. Go out and get something better.
      Feel whatever you want to feel and move forward anyway.

  101. PK*

    I posted in last week’s open thread, but I’m so excited to give an update that got a job offer! I’m grateful to all the commenters here who have posted on negotiating as a woman, and the recommendation for How to Ask. Unfortunately I got caught in the trap of needing to state a range first, and they initially offered at the lowest end of my range, but I was able to counter to the top of my range. I think how readily they accepted my counter offer means I was still lowballing myself, but it doesn’t matter because I’m SO ready to leave my job and getting more experience after 10 years of doing the same thing.

  102. fposte*

    Note to everyone in any professional situation, but especially high-pressure ones: You can no longer use the word “boner” to mean mistake. Just don’t.

      1. fposte*

        It wasn’t one of misunderstanding but suppressed audience laughter. But I felt it worth the PSA.

        1. Bea W*

          Maybe it’s a regional usage? If I heard “boner” in the right context I would take it to mean “big mistake”, but now…yeh probably want to avoid using that word.

          1. Karowen*

            I don’t know that I’ve ever heard it either, but it makes sense given the phrase “boned up.” Or is that a regional thing too?

            1. Blue_eyes*

              Hmm…I wouldn’t use any of the phrases already given, but I would use/understand “bonehead” or “boneheaded” to refer to someone who made a big mistake, so probably a related usage.

              1. Adam*

                Yes. I think it was the 90s where that word had heavy rotation, and “bonehead” and “boner” were cousin words, i.e. someone who commits a lot of “boners” is therefore a “bonehead”.

        2. Adam*

          You probably did. You’ve undoubtedly heard the word “bonehead” at some point, which if you consider on literal level doesn’t make a whole lot of sense or seems like an over-description (what else would a head be made out of?).

          Not calling you a bonehead of course. Just in general if you know American slang at all you’ve surely heard the word before and know what it means.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      On a related note, could we also consider not referring to a save-the-date as “STD”?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      fposte, I think you just opened the flood gates for PSAs.

      I will be leaving my coffee cup in the kitchen from here forward.

  103. Bea W*

    Anyone else experience the post-presentation low? I was just at a professional conference where I presented, and I feel like I crashed after a sugar high. :/

    It was also such a busy week with traveling and the conference that I thought yesterday was Friday, and I was perplexed when I came here looking for the open thread. :D

    1. Cath in Canada*

      Oh, yes. Big adrenaline spike followed by a crash. I know exactly what you mean!

      Last year, I was given VERY short notice that I was presenting my working group’s update to the full annual meeting of the research consortium I’m involved with. I didn’t even have time to make any slides – I had to stand up there with my scribbled notes in hand and just wing it. It went pretty well considering my lack of preparation and my nine time zones worth of jetlag, but I crashed pretty hard afterwards. Imagine my delight to find out that I had to go back to the stage 20 minutes later for a full panel discussion / audience Q&A that no-one had told me about! That was fun.

      The 2014 annual meeting of the same consortium is here in Vancouver this year, and I’ve been running around like a headless chicken coordinating the student volunteers, photographer, sponsors, slideshow of past years’ photos, data for my group’s slides, agendas, name tags, etc etc etc – BUT at least I don’t have to present anything this year!

  104. TotesMaGoats*

    I know that I don’t love where I work, even though I do like my job. It’s a fun mix of crazy bosses and dysfunctional employer but I was thinking just now how very lucky I am with the staff I have.

    I met with a same level colleague for breakfast and picking up stuff for an event. Came in around 10. Everyone chipped in for pizza. It’s almost time for ice cream Friday. I’m in jeans and a fleece pull-over. My staff are awesome and we are beating our enrollment numbers from last fall by 40%.

    If only we’d get the kudos we deserve for all our hard work.

  105. Liz T*

    Hey arts administrators! Ya see that 2008 Mike Daisey thing that The Stranger inexplicably republished the other day? About how arts administrators are killing America theaters by, yknow, existing? I am embroiled in a passionate discussion of this on Facebook right now, and it’s driving me crazy how people just…don’t read. So many friends are defending the piece based on its thesis (actors should make a living wage) and not acknowledging that everything it actually SAYS is terrible.

    Not surprisingly, there are two camps in the comments on my page: people who know anything about arts administration, and people who don’t. The latter are oblivious to the “fire those pointless arts administrators” theme. So, if you’re an arts administrator and feel like a hate-read, let me know if you think I’m overreacting. I can’t bring myself to post the link–Google “mike daisey how theatre failed america.”

    I hope this counts as work-related.

    1. BRR*

      As someone with an arts admin degree and used to work at an arts org this is terribly annoying. Admins did not replace artists. Fundraising and marketing positions are revenue generating. I’m not sure how successful he is but it sounds like he’s blaming others for his own lack of success. His arguments actually strengthen why arts administrators are needed. Most people are not extremely skilled in multiple things. The performers always decry the admins and provide unsolicited suggestions however while artists have certainly had to play the part of marketer and fundraiser most haven’t studied the field academically or had the practical experience of say grant writing.

      Not to mention reading about it in the times he wants a group of actors to be permanently employed by an organization. That doesn’t work because not every actor is suitable for every role and a poor product will hurt funding which is necessary to exist.

    2. Lore*

      And, having for many years run a tiny theater company where our tiny management staff were both artists and administrators, I can say a) without some level of administrating, certain kinds of art will in fact not get made (someone needs to schedule rehearsals, not to mention write paychecks and run the box office), and b) having to do both sucks a lot of the joy out of the art, at least for me. I admire people who want to create their own organizations so that they have complete freedom to create their own art. I thought I was one of those people, until I spent ten years donating money to my own company because either I had to write a check I couldn’t afford or I had to throw a fundraiser we couldn’t afford that might lose money anyway.

      1. BRR*

        I had the opportunity to star in Rocky Horror in college but I also had to direct the show and do most of the planning. It was awful.

  106. Cruciatus*

    Question for librarians… I’m asking for a coworker. He has applied to a librarian/digital cataloging job at a local university and received an email from them requesting his salary requirements. He said they mentioned something about not paying as well as other universities or local state universities/colleges. Obviously, this whole thing sucks in general but he has to give them something. So what? We are paid verrrry little at our place of employment so their “less than” might be our “more than” and he could be perfectly happy with their lowest salary…if only he knew it. He looked into the national average (I think he said $46,000), so he’s assuming this job would be maybe $35,000 or thereabouts. Does that sound probable to anyone else? Should he give a range? He wants to say it’s negotiable depending on benefits and etc. but I don’t know if that would fly. Why couldn’t they just email him a range and see if that was OK!?

    1. BRR*

      Is it a public university? If yes most have public salaries.

      Look through the archives here, there is language deflecting this. If that’s not possible give a range and say depending on benefits. Don’t go by a national average, that is a terrible number to cite as it ignores region, employer, experience etc.

      1. Cruciatus*

        It’s a private, Catholic university. He knows not to use the national average. He said he was just looking for any number after a while since nothing is on salary.com or glassdoor.com, etc.

        1. BRR*

          Are there other universities in the area that he might be able to use as a reference? From the details you’ve given ~$35kish sounds pretty accurate.

    2. Anoners*

      Hrm, I know at my old uni that kind of role would be around 60,000 K, but it’s a pretty major institution. A few of my friends took jobs like this at smaller unis and it was around 50,000 K.

  107. Beancounter in Texas*

    My hubby is planning on putting some feelers out for a new job. He’s in the IT field & the IT industry and would stick to the field of IT, but leave the industry. He’ll probably prepare a paper resume, but I question the value of it. I don’t think it will impress as much. He has professional electronic profiles available. The position for which he is aiming is a director, VP or CIO.

    What do you think? Do paper resumes and cover letters give you a different impression than an electronic one? What about thank you notes?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Since most employers require you to submit a cover letter and resume, especially at that level, via some application system, then yes he needs a resume and cover letter. Or did you mean a printed one? I always take printed ones to interviews but they don’t always need them.

      AAM has said many times that handwritten thank you notes aren’t necessary. Email is just fine.

  108. Melissa*

    I know what Alison says about dream jobs…so let’s say that a job that I really, really want was just posted. It is a research position at a federal government agency. Everything that I’ve read says that federal resumes are different from regular ones, and I’ve seem some templates with examples. Does anyone have any tips about applying to federal positions (especially federal research positions)?

    1. AVP*

      If you search back in the archives a few weeks, there was a post about federal government interviews, and the comments had a lot of really good advice about resumes and application materials.

        1. De Minimis*

          I think I’m always the big outlier, but the resume I put on USAJobs was no different than my regular resume—but I was mainly qualifying based on education.

          Research however may be different–my wife has worked in research and her resume is very detailed and elaborate.

  109. CoffeeLover*

    I’m a bit miffed and I want to see if you agree/disagree. I met with an acquaintance (we were involved in the same intensive extracurric in school a couple of years ago) to discuss an opening at his company. It turns out he’s the first round of decision makers for that role, which I learned when we met. A week passes and I get a form rejection from his email for the role. Now, I don’t mind form rejections. I don’t mind that he rejected me. But we know each other for cripes sake. We talked about this position in person. At least send me something you actually wrote. It was kind of a downer to be honest. What do you think? Should he have sent me something a little more personal or was he ok with the form letter?

    2. BRR*

      It kind of stinks but his hands might be tied. It might be company policy that he can only send the carefully crafted rejection.

      1. CoffeeLover*

        It’s a fairly small, start-up type company, so I doubt there’s a policy :(. But I mean, I messaged him through facebook to set up the meeting, so it’s not like he doesn’t have other avenues of communication here.

        1. BRR*

          Honestly, while it’s a little stinky it’s nothing to get too upset over. If it were me in his shoes I would send out the same message to all applicants. He might have not known what else to say. I would feel weird telling an acquaintance I rejected them regardless of the reason.

          1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

            This. For some rejections, I’ll take a form letter and adjust it a bit, but I almost exclusively use form letters in SOME form to reject. It’s just better language than if I were composing at the computer. And yeah, it’s gonna be bad news regardless of how it’s phrased.

    3. Mephyle*

      I would put it down to awkwardness. Guessing that he felt inadequate to deliver bad news in his own words. Not excusing but explaining him.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Ditto from me. He just did not want to tell you personally, because, well, it felt too personal.

        In an odd way, he did allow you to react to the news in privacy, meaning away from him. If you want to try to find a positive angle that thought might help a little.

  110. Office Newb Needs Help*

    This is my first time working in an office setting so I’m really not sure of the office etiquette. I was here for four months when they hired a new person to the team who now shares my office. We’re the only ones in our whole floor who share an enclosed office with a door (aside from the four who share an open air cubicle).

    My roommate is fairly nice and friendly (we’re not buddy buddies but we’re on good terms) but in the two months we’ve worked together, she has one habit that drives me absolutely crazy. She constantly makes personal calls. And I don’t mean like quick ones to check up on her kids or her husband, I’d be fine with that. I mean she will have casual conversations for over an hour, just chatting and laughing at her desk.

    It doesn’t interfere with her work; I think she purposefully saves them for when she’s doing something easy for a stretch. But she does it a couple times a week for an hour or longer. And I’m finding it really disruptive. Even with my headphones on listening to my music, I can hear her carrying on and I can’t focus. It gets so annoying at times that I’ll try to find work to do outside of our shared room for a time. It’s honestly disrupting my work, much as I try not to let it. I don’t think I can ask her to just do it softer because she’s already pretty quiet. We’re just in a small office, our chairs only three-five feet away from each other, it’s impossible for me not to hear her.

    Am I allowed to ask her take her personal conversations out of office? Or to wait for the scheduled times I’m not in the office (mail run, when it’s my week to work the front desk, lunch break) and I want to tell her to save it for those times. But like I said, we’re not really good friends, I think she could just as likely tell me she’ll keep doing what she wants as to accept my request.

    1. fposte*

      It’s a perfectly reasonable request, and if she’s as nice as she sounds (and has a brain about the fact that the next step would be taking this to the supervisor, who isn’t likely to be as tolerant as you) she should happily oblige.

    2. PK*

      This is my biggest pet peeve. You can definitely tell her that you’ve tried to find alternatives to working during her personal calls, but it’s affecting your work and if she could please save the calls for when you’re away from your desk. I would address it sooner rather than later, because if you’re anything like me, one day if you’re upset you might end up snapping at her. If she’s reasonable she’ll agree. I think there are other times this has been addressed if you search AMA’s archives.

    3. Crazy Me!*

      I would be half tempted to start making comments/asking questions about the conversation you just overheard. “So, did Aunt Finella ever take Uncle Artemis back in?” Granted, that’s rude, but so is carrying hour-long personal phone calls in a shared office. Maybe it will make her a tad uncomfortable now that she knows you are paying attention.

      1. Gene*

        Back when I rode the bus to work at PreviousJob, I’ve been here for 23 years-so cellphones were much less common and were expensive then, we had a couple on the bus who liked to show off that they had them. They’d take out the phone and start talking loudly. I pretty much put an end to it, at least near me, by taking out a pad and obviously taking notes on their conversation. That probably wouldn’t work now.

      2. Office Newb*

        I have, actually. She generally just gives a short response and doesn’t say anything else. She’s a nice person but she’s not really open or chatty with me or any of our co-workers, just with her friends on the phone.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Well, you’re allowed to ask her whatever you want, of course. But asking her to take them outside is a bit pushy, IMO. Your problem is that, even with headphones on, you can still hear her talking on the phone and it makes it very hard to concentrate on your work. So tell her exactly that, and ask her how she thinks you can fix this yourselves (implying that if you can’t resolve it between yourselves, HR or a supervisor could and should become involved). She may talk more quietly, she might call when you’re not there, she might go somewhere else. But it’s not really your position to choose WHICH solution she must use, just whether a solution solves the problem for you or not.

      Not that you should have to do this, but if you’re using earbuds, you’d have to have the music kind of loud to block out outside sounds. I have a pair of Sennheiser “cans” that I got on Amazon for maybe $20-$25, and they block out a LOT more outside sound than any other kind of headphones/earphones I’ve ever used. Just a technical point in case you would prefer to block it out, or if you’re really sensitive to outside noise.

      1. Office Newb*

        I can’t have noise cancelling headphones because I have to keep my ears open for the phone ringing (which she’s technically supposed to do too but she doesn’t like answering the phone and I think there’s an issue with her line anyway). I use normal headphones, not earbuds.

        And I wouldn’t have a problem if it was just her making the normal kinds of quick calls (doctor’s appointments, checking with her husband about what they’re making for dinner, hotel/airplane reservations, that kind of stuff). But she talks for over an hour about just casual things. The last time, she was talking about how she hated how her wedding photos came out (she was married just a few weeks ago). She giggles and gets loud, and it’s just disruptive.

        But thanks for the suggestions :)

    5. soitgoes*

      Say, “I’m sorry, it’s not your fault, but I can’t do my work while someone’s talking. It’s why they gave me the office with the door, so I can work in quiet.”

    6. Olivia Pope*

      I have a problem where I have noise canceling headphones and I can’t hear people talking around me! So I always need one ear in one ear out. They were on Amazon Panasonic brand and they really cancel noise out and were maybe $15 or less.

      I am all for confronting the problem though, she probably has no idea the toll it is taking on you.

  111. A Minion*

    I have another situation. I plan to have one every week, so get used to it. (joking. I hope.)

    I had an interview on Tuesday (which I got some great tips for on last week’s open thread – thanks for that!!). I thought it went well, but didn’t think I’d get the job, so I came back to work and put it out of my mind. They told me they’d make a decision by the end of next week, so I knew I was in for a wait. I was going to write my thank-you notes at home and send them on Wednesday morning. But, I got a call Tuesday afternoon with a job offer! I was very excited and I accepted the offer. On Wednesday morning I gave my notice at Current Job and made plans to go to stop by New Job on Monday morning to get my background checks rolling.
    So, everything was going well. Until about an hour ago. The HR dept. has been calling my references today – I was actually in my supervisor’s office when she got the call and two of my other references have told me they got a call, so that’s how I know. About an hour ago, I got a call from HR and here’s what she said, “I’m sorry, but we haven’t hired for this type of position in a very long time and we neglected to get approval for this hire from our regional office. So, we’ve had to send everything there for approval and we’ll have to reschedule our meeting on Monday for another day. HR Manager will call you next week to let you know when to come by for that, but she’s actually off, so it may be Thursday before she calls you.”
    I asked if everything was okay and she laughed a little and said everything’s fine, so I asked if this would affect my start date and she didn’t know, but said she’d have to follow up with me later to let me know.
    So, now I’m really worried that something has gone wrong and they’re going to use “regional approval” as an excuse not to move forward. I don’t think anyone would have given me a bad reference – I know that the two I spoke to said they gave me a very good one. Of course there were several others they had numbers for, so I don’t know who all they called. But I can’t think of any reason any of them would speak negatively of me.
    Am I overreacting? Does this sound like an excuse to you? I’m just afraid the rug is about to be ripped right out from under me and I’m not only out of New Job, but I’m screwed with Old Job as well – I’m training my replacement already.

    1. fposte*

      It doesn’t sound like an excuse–they can bail without an excuse–but I’m puzzled by their process even without this particular lapse. What’s the point of calling references *after* you’ve extended the offer?

      1. A Minion*

        Well, the offer is a firm offer but still contingent upon satisfactory background check. Since I expected good references and i have no criminal history I acceptedand gave notice. Maybe that was stupid.

        1. fposte*

          Contingent on background check is pretty common, but references aren’t background check. I think it’s likely that they’ll muddle through just fine, but I don’t like that they’ve had two things that should have happened before an offer coming along after it.

          1. Selkie*

            This was the process for the job I started this week – I accepted the offer, and then my references were contacted. I did wonder what the point of that was.

  112. Cath in Canada*

    Alison, reading the more popular posts this week made me wonder – if you suspect that a question is likely to trigger a lot of debate and strong opinions, do you warn the OP in advance that this might happen?

    (hope this is on-topic enough – I won’t be near a computer for Sunday’s free-for-all thread!)

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Not typically — although in a couple of cases where I’ve thought the OP was likely to get strongly criticized, I’ve warned them about that ahead of time.

      2. TotesMaGoats*

        Are you ever surprised by the topics that get the most responses? Like you think question 1 is going to trigger the most but it turns out to be innocuous question 3?

          1. Cath in Canada*

            My experience with my own (waaaaaaaay less popular) blog was the same – posts that took hours of research and revision sometimes get no comments, and a “hey, this diagram of a cell from a scientific journal looks kinda like Bart Simpson!” post that took about 4 minutes got tons of comments and was cited in a major scientific journal. Go figure.

  113. Peanuts*

    I placed my employee on a PIP about a month ago. We were going to have our mid-way checkpoint yesterday. The Monday before, I received a one-line email from a family member telling me the employee was in an accident. The relative didn’t think he was severely injured, but wasn’t sure. I didn’t hear anything from the relative or the employee the next day, so I emailed the relative asking how the employee was doing. The relative explained they would be taking him home sometime this week, and he’d be moving in with relatives. That was the extent of the communication. In addition to being on the PIP, the employee had already exhausted his sick leave, and started to use vacation time for an illness two weeks ago. How would you deal with this situation as far as the PIP goes, and how to kindly find out when he will be back to work, etc.? I would have thought the relative would provide more information, but they were not forthcoming and I feel like it’s inappropriate to pry. Should I just assume since I haven’t heard that he’s on unpaid leave? Also, the company has an “unlimited vacation” policy, so he doesn’t actually have any vacation banked. It’s based off of his ours worked, and he has already used 3 weeks of vacation. HR just told me to send the contact info for our benefits admin to him, but I haven’t heard from him whether he plans on using short-term disability. Do I just wait indefinitely?

    1. fposte*

      No. You outline options and tell the contact what you can do for the employee. “Please tell him he’s on unpaid leave at this point, and we’ll need to have FMLA paperwork including the health provider statement when he comes back to process this as FMLA/we’ll need to talk to him by next Friday if he’d like to keep his position here [if he’s not FMLA eligible].”

      I am skeptical that this employee is feeling dandy enough to move around the place but somehow can’t call his work, and I think you need to put an end date on this.

  114. Karen*

    I have a question about networking and flirting. It seems like if you’re a (young) woman looking to network, you’re constantly bombarded with men trying to flirt with you. I hate it. Right now, I’m passively looking and a hiring manager who I’d interviewed with two years ago (and almost gotten the job except our timeline needs were different) connected with me on LinkedIn and sent me a message. We chatted back and forth, talking about our industry, and his messages just had a flirty vibe to them. The last one ended in a smiley face. I am obviously so disappointed because I really would have loved to work for that company, but I truly hate working with those men who half flirt with you at work, and so now I will not pursue any opportunities there.

    When I used to network in NYC with a (young attractive) salesperson for my old company, this used to happen as well. I was shocked (and I mean shocked!) by the number of men who tried to flirt with her while networking. She would complain about it privately to me, but she said that she needed the business and the leads so she obviously wouldn’t say anything to end the relationships. She’d just kind of ignore the flirtatiousness and try to persevere to close the deal.

    So question for the women in the thread: does this happen to you, and if so, how do you deal with it?
    And a question for the men: Are you guilty of trying to flirt in networking spaces? If so, is there something a woman could say to get you to stop without severing the professional relationship?

    1. Bend & Snap*

      This happens to me. A few years ago I set up what I thought was a networking coffee because we had ONLY talked business…he showed up thinking it was a date. #Awkward.

      I avoid lingering too long in a 1:1 conversation with a man in a networking setting, now.

  115. Just Another Commenter*

    Good news! I’m getting out of the retail place I have been working in for a few years now. The only not-so-good part is that I’m moving into another retail setting; the better part is at least I’m getting more money out of it. In the meantime, I’m still looking for gainful employment.

    Anyway, the place I’m leaving now won’t let me have my one last personal day attached to either this week or next week. Apparently once they find out someone is leaving, the personal days and vacation days get locked and will be paid out by corporate some time following the employee’s departure. I hope I get the 4 hours of personal time, but I’m not holding my breath for it. This company doesn’t tell anyone anything; you just find out about it when you suddenly need it.

    Meanwhile, my boss there is being weird with the schedule. He’s put me on the schedule for today without asking (it’s in our company culture to ask rather than just throw someone on the schedule), and he’s disregarded the day off I requested months ago for this upcoming week. I think he is upset because there are two of us leaving this month.

    Here’s to leaving that place! Here’s to my future! And yours too!

  116. Workplace Crier*

    (Regular posting name has been changed to protect the still semi-embarrassed.)

    So I work at a job where we have reviews every 3-4 weeks. (We do a high volume of work some days, but I do not work in a call center, retail or any other kind of customer/client service.) I find that relatively annoying, but since the reviews are meant to provide feedback, whatever. Anyway, I had my review the other day, and while I was strong in the majority of areas, one area was not up to par for my supervisors’ liking, and as a result, they’re withholding an extra project/professional development from me until that area gets better. I was really disappointed in myself and started to cry in front of my managers. I have never done that before, and I’ve been at my company for over four years. I work remotely, so I have cried at work, but because of my not being in an office, no one ever sees or hears it. That was, until the other day. (I was meeting with my bosses on a video call.)

    I already apologized to my bosses. One did not reply to my apology; the other said he understood and there was no need to say sorry. Even with that, I’m still nervous they might not respect me anymore or may hesitate to give me further professional development or negative feedback. I don’t want to keep dwelling on it, but at the same time, I can’t help but wonder if they’re just being kind and my reputation is shot in their eyes.

    I’m looking for a job (and my crying episode only drives me further to get out), but I’m just wondering how to keep going when your motivation at a job is shot. I was told a few months ago after not getting an internal role that I may not get another promotion at my company, so that is weighing on my mind. Not to mention there is not high turnover, so positions aren’t really open to begin with. My job search has been kind of iffy. So many friends and family who were searching have already picked up new jobs, not to mention the stream of AAM-ers who keep getting these dream positions that they love with great coworkers, great boss, the whole nine yards. It makes me feel a little envious seeing everyone’s success in the open thread while my phone and e-mail have crickets.

    I’m feeling better since I cried the other day, but I just wish for once I could be the success story and announce my new job! I feel so stuck right now, and being in a saturated field is not helping.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I say this with complete sincerity and sympathy, you should consider talking with a professional counselor. It sounds like you could use some help in developing coping skills. It’s okay that you cried at work. Really, it is. Most of us have done it. No one wants to cry at work but it happens. You apologized. Now, you need to move on. Yes, it seems there are a lot of people who have gotten that dream job lately but AAM is a microcosm of the world. There are 100 people who didn’t get the job for everyone 1 that did. And that’s probably way under the actual number.

      I would say that putting this event behind you will help with your outlook. Work on whatever your supervisors want you to work on and let the rest of it go. Keep up the job search but talking with someone might help mitigate the desperation.

      I do hope things get better for you.

    2. Blue_eyes*

      Try to put the incident out of your mind. Many people have cried at work, and you realized that it was unprofessional and apologized. Since you’ve been there for a few years and this has not happened before they will probably realize that it is out of character for you and let it go.

      I’m looking for work right now too and I know it can feel like everyone else is getting shiny new jobs all around you, but remember that 1) you’re more sensitive to it because you want a new job too and 2) people are much more likely to share good news publicly than disappointing news, so you’re seeing a disproportionate number of posts about new jobs (especially here on AAM).

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t let this get huge inside your head.
      You’ve apologized so stop talking about it. They want to move on, take them up on that opportunity.
      Next, take them at their word, until you find proof that their word is no good. This means thinking/planning out your steps to make those improvements they want happen. This situation is totally fixable. I have had to deliver bad news to subordinates. The ones that I admired the most were the ones who went about fixing the problem. (Sometimes, I admired these fixers more than the so-called great workers. It takes courage to confront problems head on and deal. I can get wowed by that.)

      Remember people don’t waste time explaining things if they feel the situation is hopeless. They just say “Here’s the door, have a nice life.”

      I think you need to build your faith in YOU. You have a two pronged attack here- remedy their complaint AND sincerely look for a different job. As you go through this process you will gain clarity that you do not have right now. See, in one part of this plan you are telling yourself “Yes, I can take constructive criticism and I can grow because of it”. In the second half of the attack where you up your job search you are telling yourself “I will not allow me to stagnate or get boxed into a corner. I will respect me enough to get something better for myself.”

      I know that when I find myself crying it is never just one thing, it is multiple things coming in at the same time. I break it down into parts and I take one thing at a time. I develop a response to it then move to the next thing. So this is something you might want to try. Go one thing at a time and develop a nice, strong positive response.

  117. Mike C.*

    What in the hell is wrong with my IT department today?!

    I receive an email saying that there’s a license issue with a rather expensive data analysis package that I’m currently using, with lots of random people CC’ed. So my boss gets on the phone with the gal, leaves a long message about how I really need this program, there’s money in our budget to buy it, what’s the process to clear this all up, etc. I then reply all saying that there’s a long message, just go and talk to my boss to clear it up, here’s the number, etc.

    A while later someone else on the chain replies all with “I have remote access permission to [my] machine so I can remove the software package in question”. No reference to my boss’s message, nothing. I had to call him in the nick of time not to do this, since several members of upper management were waiting on my work.

    Christ, what the hell is this? It’s like I was trying to dodge the repo man!

  118. Stella Ella Oh La*

    I just applied for my first internal job posting! Anybody have any success/horror stories to share? Words of wisdom? I’m feeling excited and confident, but still trying not to get my hopes up (failing at that part).

    1. Graciosa*

      Whether you get this particular job or not, remember that you are building your reputation and your network every time you interview. This is much more true for internal postings. I know (and interviewed multiple times) someone who repeatedly applied for a specific role without getting it.

      He really impressed every person on every panel, was gracious every time he was not selected, asked for feedback every time, and made every interview better than the last. He did this without knowing that when someone edged him out by a hair, we were all convinced his time would come (and talked to other hiring managers about how great he was whenever the opportunity arose).

      His last attempt was successful. He is thrilled with his new role, and he has an enthusiastic cadre of supporters who all want him to succeed.

      I really hope you get the job you want the first time up, but the truth is that you just don’t know what the pool is like so don’t take it personally if there is someone a little better. In that case, remember that people are watching your behavior – be the person everyone will be rooting for the next time around.

      Good luck.

  119. lalla*

    Slightly weird question I guess – how do I get people to tell me what I’m bad at?

    I work in a junior role at a company with over 500 employees. I’d describe myself as competent. I work hard to be the best I can be but I’m not some sort of superstar.

    I’m in a situation at work where everybody seems to think I’m much better at everything than I actually am. On several occasions my boss has told me (and several very senior colleagues) that I’m “the kind of person you get to work with once in a lifetime”. I do tend to be highly self-critical but even being generous to myself, I feel like this is ridiculous hyperbole. Everything I do, I get praise and encouragement from all over the company. They give me awards, they ask me to act as a representative of the company to visitors (although that’s not part of my normal role), they do everything they can to try to make me feel valued. If I ask what I need to improve on, I get: “you need to have more faith in your abilities” and “you can achieve anything you want to, you just need to find what you want and go for it”.

    I was recently assigned a mentor at work, and within half an hour of meeting her, she was suggesting I’d be perfect for an internal vacancy that’s just become available – one that would entail a huge amount of responsibility and freedom, and a 50% increase on my current salary. She looked at my list of things I thought I needed to work on, which I’d taken to the meeting as requested, and said, “I think you’re very harsh on yourself, we can work with all of these things”.

    It’s really nice to have people who believe in me. But I’m kind of stuck in that I feel like everything I do goes pretty well so I’m finding it difficult to narrow down what I’m actually good at. I’m quite early in my professional career (I’m in my mid 20s) and I want to start making decisions about what direction to go in with work and what my strengths and weaknesses are and where I need to improve. But all I get are positives.

    Any ideas on how to go about getting some sort of constructive feedback?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      You’ve gotten constructive feedback. You just don’t want to hear it or believe it. I was saying this to one of my interns just the other day. It does happen that you are able to find something you are really good at, what you are “supposed to do” (if you believe in that), and it comes easy to you. Work doesn’t always have to be that struggle.

      So, listen to what other people who’ve been around longer than you are saying to you. You are good at what you do. They value what you bring to the table. You are way to harsh on yourself.

      A young friend of mine is in culinary school and the teacher, a well-respected chef, keeps telling him how good he is. Naturally good at cooking. He keeps doubting himself. I told him “Who should you believe? The person with more skill/experience who says you are awesome or you who has a hard time admitting you are good? But if you can’t trust your own self-talk right now (the voice that says I’m awesome) then trust what those around you say until you do. Make their words your mantra. I think sometimes when we’ve managed to find that “thing” we are really good at and supposed to do but continue to doubt ourselves, every success is considered a fluke and we keep waiting for failure.”

    2. soitgoes*

      Sometimes we’ve been so beaten down by assy managers and even professors that we get used to thinking that we’re not good at anything. I used to think I was the laziest screw-up ever until I began getting praise for my strong work ethic. Who knew? I certainly didn’t think I had one. Turns out that showing up on time every day is incredibly hard for a lot of people.

      1. Anx*

        Showing up on time is incredibly difficult for me. I am hoping to eventually move into a position that’s not directly client facing so that a late day won’t be as disastrous.

        But I thought I had a terrible work ethic because setting 3 alarms wasn’t always enough. I would pull all-nighters frequently to avoid oversleeping and start vomiting worrying about how to get to work on time. I mentioned this to a therapist and she seemed surprised. Apparently I was no worse than the average patient. I looked elsewhere I noticed that I wasn’t actually later than anyone else. But I spent years internalizing that fear of being late and didn’t even notice the things I was exceling at. It wasn’t until I had finished college that and my manager noted that I was the hardest worker at my job and most dependable that I started to view my work ethic more positively.

        1. soitgoes*

          Aw, don’t be so stressed! I’m just that one odd person who’s good at being on time. Sometimes my friends ask me to text them on important mornings so they can get up on time (they make sure to leave their phones on). Do you have a friend (or a punctual mom/dad) who can do that for you?

          But your bigger point is definitely true, that it only takes one overly critical boss to make you feel like your normal stuff is super duper bad and makes you a terrible person.

    3. HR Manager*

      Constructive feedback is both things you are good at or possibly not so good at, so you should appreciate and thank any feedback as well. I would also suggest being honest with everyone, and say something like “I really appreciate the positive feedback. I want to make sure to grow and improve, so I am always open to hearing your thoughts on things I can do better as well.” Another way to ask is more specific feedback – not just ‘nice presentation there’ but ‘ you are really good at connecting with the audience in your presentation because you use a lot of eye contact..’

      But be patient with some folks; giving constructive feedback on things to fix is hard for a lot of people (even a lot of managers) and not everyone is comfortable with it or does it well.

    4. Blue_eyes*

      If you’re getting the same feedback from multiple sources (you’re too hard on yourself), then I think you need to seriously consider what they are saying. Often people who are really bad at things think that they are great at them (because they are also bad at self evaluation). It sounds like you have the opposite problem – you never believe you’re good enough.

    5. fposte*

      And “You’re too hard on yourself” can be kind of like “You’re a perfectionist,” in that people take it as a compliment when it’s actually feedback about a flaw that really can be a problem. At the very least, it can make it difficult for you to get corrections on stuff, because you may not have perspective about your errors, which can turn feedback into a bigger deal than it needs to be.

    6. Rex-a-ford*

      I can relate to a lot of this. Getting good critical feedback can be really difficult when you perform well. After doing a project or whatever it is, ask your boss what you could have done better. Ask specific pointed questions, Could I have handled X,Y, or Z better? o -o

      You also might need a change of perspective. You probably aren’t “bad” at any aspect of your job. Now you might perform average at some aspects, but if you frame it as “bad”, you might throw people off when asking for advice. If you’re in the position of where you feel most things are going well for you, and I think that’s entirely possible if you’re competent and hardworking, try to find the kind of work that you enjoy doing, and happen to do decently or well. Once you move further into that path, determining what you need to work on might be clearer.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      The word “constructive” does not mean “negative”. I fear you are looking for negative feedback in order to define the boundaries of your working career. Please don’t do this.

      Additionally, any feed back is NOT intended to be life defining. It is only intended for immediate purposes. No one would open a fortune cookie and say “here is the way my life will play out”. This is more of that- you cannot use constructive criticism at work to define your whole working career. If you want to plan out your life long career see a career coach or a life coach. The people at work probably will not give that to you.

      I say ride it out. You are in your twenties. I don’t believe people get a real sense of themselves until they get into their mid 30s. Think of everything you see as a learning opportunity, think of it as an exciting experience to add to your collection of experiences.

      Hee-hee… I have to chuckle. Me and my 50 something year old friends are commenting that it is just now that all of our eclectic life experiences are even beginning to make sense.

      Your situation sounds similar to mine. I took an aptitude test decades ago. It came back that I will be good at anything I chose to be good at. So right away I KNEW that stupid test was flawed! (I hope you are laughing here.)

      The mistake I made was I took all this stuff way too seriously. You are surrounded by people that will guide you as you go along. This means green light GO! Take in all the different experiences you can find available for yourself. Do each one to the best of your ability. Be patient with you. This is good to learn how to do, because the work world requires you to be patient with others. You won’t be able to do that if you do not know how to be patient with yourself.

      Going forward, tell yourself, “I am going to collect up as many unique experiences as I can”.
      People talk about getting rich. Personally, I think that one of the richest things in life is to have as many experiences as possible and meet as many people as possible.

  120. Navigator*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m in the position of writing a grant with a local nonprofit to fund a pretty substantial program (about $400,000). For various reasons (I can’t explain or it will be too identifying), I am 99% sure this funding will come through (please trust me on this). The non-profit would never have had access to this grant money unless I had reached out to them to see if they wanted to work together. A position for me is being written into the grant.

    Here’s my worry: once they receive the money, they are under no legal obligation to hire me. I would be heartbroken if they turned around and offered the position to someone else. Is there any way to lay out an agreement ahead of time–in writing or otherwise legally binding–that basically says they promise to hire me if this funding comes through? This isn’t a small investment of time; I’m guessing 40 to 80 hours to get the grant together for them, if not more.

    Or would it be out of line to ask for something in writing? This is a new world to me so I’m not sure what’s appropriate here.

    Thanks for any advice.

    1. fposte*

      I’ll be interested to hear what other people think, but I think the way to have done this was to write yourself into the grant by name. At this point, I don’t see how they could be made legally obliged to hire you. You can ask them to reiterate their commitment to you, but I doubt that that’s binding.

    2. fposte*

      P.S. Unless there’s somebody else you know about who’d also fit in that position, it’s not likely they’re going to hunt around to find somebody for a position that they’ve already got somebody they could plug into it. (I’m presuming there are no organization hiring rules that would govern the hire.)

      1. Navigator*

        *slaps forehead* Why didn’t I think of that? The grant hasn’t been submitted yet, so that may be a good option. Thanks for the suggestion!

  121. Bad Kitty*

    It’s official – I’m a far more clenched and horrible person without the calming influence of AAM and my comment buddies as a daily buffer against stress and stupidity.

    I had a post typed in one of my brief forays back to my desk these days and lost it so for those of you who remember my epic war of wills with Bad Manager – the Lord of the Land of Non-Compliant Departments here is a brief update:

    1. Audit came and went where everywhere else in all the land was compliant and found to be not only in conformance but exceptional.
    2. Per the Royal External Auditor The Lady Bad Kitty and Princess of Compliance was deemed to write exemplary procedures. Internal audits and management review are located in her kingdom were judged to be some of the best he’s ever seen. (She knows it’s not polite to brag, but she needs something to hold onto right now.)
    3. The Land of Non-Compliant departments, ruled by Lord BM was deemed to have two major areas of non-compliance in critical areas to the point of complete rebellion and revolution by the populace (otherwise knows as major non conformance.)
    4. The King and Queen of TPTB – which rule over both Princess of Compliance and Lord BM have made it unequivocal clear that no blame is to be cast on our heroine as it is not within her otherwise mighty powers to mitigate issues caused by Lord BMs failure to follow her clear and reasonable directives.
    5. The King and Queen have to answer to the Royal External Auditor about why Lord BM was not following instructions, while Lord BM has to spend the next couple of additional weeks spending a lot of time with Princess Compliance learning, implementing, and basically following directives to turn his estate completely around by the upcoming follow up audit in order to keep the Royal Decree of Awesomeness (aka certification.)
    6. Princess Compliance is cranky because for the last several weeks and few more she’s been personally overseeing both her realms and the realms of Lord BM and all of this tiresome ruling is running 13-16 hours a day not leaving much time for her beauty sleep or to polish her tiaras.
    7. When she pulls everyone’s asses out of the fire, without scorching her pink silken gown hand made by butterflies, there had better be a new tiara in this for her. And by tiara I mean something a lot more than a tiara.
    8. Lessons learned – it is far more satisfying to have orderly and peacefully existing realms than to be able to tell people, “I told thou so.”
    9. If everyone would just assume Princess Compliance was always correct and obey immediately there would be less need for the royal dungeon.
    10. Princess Compliance’s realm is firmly situated in the rare, but perfect, land of INTJ. Having to venture out for hours and hours each day mingling with the people who make up the realms that all start with E is really challenging. Let’s just say her magic wand is running out of the “fake happy to be talking to strangers all day every day” spell. The land of INTJ missed her desperately and needs her back.

    2. AVP*

      Maybe a very, very large and expensive tiara would do the trick. The kind that can be melted down and replaced by a large bonus check.

      1. Bad Kitty*

        Oh, one wouldn’t want to inconvenience Ye Olde Purchasing Department when it would be far simpler for the regal accountant to just skip the middle man. It’s a very progressive middle ages with direct deposit.

    3. Shell*

      This mouse offers up the land of ISTJ as a temporary reprieve for Princess Compliance. And Lord BM should be made to hand-polish all of Princess Compliance’s tiaras (if he can be trusted to not mess that up).

      Also, I now decree every workplace needs a royal dungeon.

      1. Bad Kitty*

        I love the way you think – but he cannot be trusted with the sacred crowns.

        And I love the land of ISTJ – I have 3 siblings from that realm, I am quite at home there. (although I married someone who was born in ESTP, which can cause for some culture clashing at times.

        And now I don my invisible “be nice to everyone and smile, smile, smile” tiara to head back and give layered audit training.

        I was asked specifically not to crucify because it’s not productive, and I haven’t…that was very nice of me. I am a benevolent Princess.

        (I keep up with this theme and I may require them to turn my office into a turret where I can gaze out the window wearing one of those pointy hats with scarves on it. For the tiaraless times, because if you wear one 24/7 they lose their magic power. AND I WANT A MOAT!)

        1. C Average*

          The phrase “I was asked specifically not to crucify because it’s not productive” filled me with delight.

          That is all.

        3. acmx*

          I’m disappointed that he is still there! A coup needs to occur.
          #5 Haven’t you been doing this all along? (As in, you’re still having to train him but he doesn’t listen?)

        4. Not So NewReader*

          The actual problem here is the king and queen that allow BM to reign.

          I hope there is a time frame for how long you have to work with BM until he gets it. This cannot be something that goes on indefinitely. It will be detrimental to your own work.

          I hope you are keeping a written log of how much time of yours he has soaked up and how many times you have had to explain the same thing over and over and over….

    4. Trixie*

      It may be more satisfying but would be fun to say, “I told thou so.” You should be writing for Community, especially since they moved to Yahoo.

    6. Elizabeth*

      Look up Tiara Tuesday on Facebook. It’s A Thing. And yes, you need one. In addition to all other recompense for this.

  122. C Average*

    I have to share something delicious with you all.

    Because my team is responsible for the knowledge base our outsourced call centers use, we sometimes work closely with those call centers, and we often receive direct feedback from agents. We generally really like this part of our job. Many of the call center employees want to work for my company and enjoy interacting with those of us from corporate, and we get a lot of good insights from them.

    For the last year, we’ve been dealing with one particularly difficult agent. He’s very bright and a talented writer, but some of his comments and feedback are arrogant and passive-aggressive to the point of being unprofessional. Because we’re not his employer, we aren’t able to directly address this behavior, and his own management hasn’t chosen to address it because, apparently, based on his metrics he’s doing a really good job. And in a call center environment, it’s all about the metrics. We genuinely like the guy and want to see him succeed, but his constant snark is both a detriment to him and something we don’t have the power to address.

    With the holidays approaching, we have a lot of big projects and, to be blunt, we need to bring in two people to do our scut work for three months. We are considering trying to arrange a stretch assignment for him and for one of his peers. I think it would be AMAZING for him to experience firsthand how difficult our work is and to learn how it feels to get feedback like what he gives us. And it would be (yes, I’m evil) deeply satisfying to have him under our thumb for a little while. I think it’s an arrangement that could be highly beneficial to everyone, and I hope it happens!

    1. acmx*

      Do you worry that this might make him feel that his attitude was justified or that you are rewarding him for it?

      1. C Average*

        I don’t think so. We’d make it clear that he’s getting this assignment based on his product knowledge, attention to detail, writing skills, and attention to the consumer experience (all of which are stellar), but that there will be active coaching on his professional demeanor and his understanding of why and how corporate decisions are made.

        Honestly, I think everyone on my team who came from an internal background (there are four of us in that category) came into the role thinking we were much smarter than the rest of the team, and were rapidly humbled by the volume and difficulty and sheer complexity and political complications of the role. It is much harder than it looks. Because we’ve been through that cycle ourselves, we’ll be understanding and we’ll be able to coach him successfully.

        It will be a learning experience for everyone, and if he has as much potential as we all think he does, he’ll emerge much closer to the corporate role he’d like to someday have.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      This is interesting, you will have to let us know how it goes.

      I always enjoy stories where people take a new, unusual approach to old, tired issues. Most of us have a workplace know-it-all and are sick of going down the same path time after time.
      Good on you and yours that you have figured out this different approach.

  123. Carrie*

    Hi.

    My colleague, I’ll call her Kim, and I had a meeting with our manager today. The other member of our team, I’ll caller her Linda, was not present. During the meeting, Kim made some remarks about Linda falling behind and that she does not bring anything “fresh” to the department. While I agree to an extent, it’s not something I would say to a manager unless it was very severe; I don’t want to get involved in office politics if I don’t have to. Besides, Linda has always been kind to me.

    After the meeting, Kim approached me and told me how great she thought the meeting went. I agreed…but then I told her-in a very nice way-to be mindful of mentioning other employees, because our manager might have a conversation with Linda that the subject of her falling behind came up during our meeting, and that this may result in unnecessary drama. Kim got defensive and said that she is “going to look out for herself”. The rest of the day, Kim was icy towards me.

    Was I wrong to mention my opinion to Kim, or should I have kept silent? I’m concerned because now I feel that Kim will probably throw me under the bus if she gets the chance. I just don’t want to be lumped into drama if I don’t have to be. I would appreciate nay opinions. Thanks!

    1. Colette*

      Is it that you don’t think it was true (or as bad as what Kim was saying) or that you think it was likely to cause drama/hurt Linda’s feelings?

      If you didn’t agree with what Kim was saying, you could have spoken up at the time or followed up with the manager to explain your actual opinion.

      If you agree, then it’s reasonable of Kim to mention it to your manager, although that should be done not by saying Linda doesn’t bring anything “fresh” to the department (what does that even mean?) but by specifically explaining ways where Linda is reluctant to change or where she is falling behind.

      If you don’t like being dragged into this – i.e. if you think it’s a personality clash rather than an actual problem that affects the business – then I think it’s fine to mention to Kim that you don’t agree.

      However, I don’t think you should caution Kim about mentioning problems to your manager because doing so might make the manager talk to Linda – if Linda is falling behind or otherwise causing problems, that is the manager’s responsibility. That doesn’t mean Linda isn’t trying or that she’s not a nice person, just that she’s not doing the job as well as necessary.

      1. Carrie*

        Thanks for responding.

        Well, I agree with Kim to an extant…..Linda does tend to fall behind, but she is very good at her work otherwise; she has been there the longest and has the most experience/knowledge. So, with that being said, I guess you’re right in that maybe Kim did feel as though I agreed, and therefore it was ok to mention it to our manager. I understand managers do need to be told these things, but I just hate the he-said, she-said stuff, and like you said, I did’t want to hurt Linda. Now, I’m not sure how I will be viewed.

        1. Colette*

          You could talk to your manager and say something like “I was surprised Kim mentioned that Linda is falling behind in our last meeting. While she does sometimes fall behind, she’s great at A, B, and C. I just wanted to make sure you had the full picture.”

    2. C Average*

      Hmmm, I can see why this would be awkward!

      I’ve always liked the principle that if you’re saying something negative about a colleague and there is anyone in your audience who is NOT in a position to correct the problem, it’s gossip, not constructive discussion. This makes intuitive sense to me; it also satisfies the Golden Rule, namely, if I had a colleague who felt I wasn’t pulling my weight, I’d want her to take her concerns to either me or my manager, and not to involve a peer.

      I’d maybe approach Kim and explain that it makes you uncomfortable to be in the room when a peer is being discussed in a negative way, and that you’d prefer that if she has a problem with Linda, she discuss it privately with the manager and/or Linda and not involve you.

      I’ve done all I can to make it clear to my colleagues through the years that I will only participate in positive gossip about my colleagues. If you want to tell me the new intern is super smart or that you’re so much happier now that you’re reporting to Wakeen, talk away! If you want to tell me you’re frustrated with your role because your opportunities feel limited and you’re bored, I’ll totally listen and sympathize. But if you tell me Wakeen’s cracker-eating is making you crazy, I’m going to tell you to take it up with Wakeen and/or Wakeen’s manager or HR, and to leave me out of it.

      1. Carrie*

        Thanks for responding.

        I’m new to the job and am navigating my way through, observing and figuring things out. At my last job, there was lots of hostility, gossip and “throwing people under the bus”. I really want to avoid this at this new job, because I feel that so much of it is usually petty or minor, as opposed to being a serious problem or hinderance.

    3. PK*

      My thought is that you kinda sorta got involved in some drama yourself without intending to. If Kim’s discussion of Linda in the meeting was not appropriate, then it’s up to your manager to address that with Kim. Was mentioning Linda on topic and important in the meeting? If a manager needs to discuss performance improvement, that should not be avoided just so it doesn’t cause drama. It’s up to the manager not to throw you guys under the bus and tell Linda you were all talking about her. (However, not all managers are that good I realize) If it was clearly not the appropriate venue to bring up Linda, and Kim is a co-worker you get along with really well and you know she takes critiques like that well, then maybe you could let her know that you think she made a bit of a faux pas… But I think if you didn’t know before, you found out Kim doesn’t take advice well and you should leave it to her manager from this point forward.

      1. Carrie*

        I know exactly what you mean, but the thing is, I don’t trust my manager to be tactful about it. She is definitely the type to name names, so I became concerned in that moment. If I knew my manager would be ok about it, I probably wouldn’t have said anything to Kim. And yea, I will have to mind my words around Kim from now on.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Watch out for getting involved in situations where you are trying to protect people from other people. When you insert yourself into that arena, more than likely you will end up getting bit by it.

    4. soitgoes*

      Sounds like Kim threw Linda under the bus because Linda wasn’t there. I wonder if there’s something Kim is slacking on and she’s preemptively putting Linda on the hook for it.

      1. Carrie*

        Kim does seem overly anxious to prove herself and get in with the boss. I’ve noticed this quite a bit with her. However, she can do that on her own, she needs to keep me out of it! Don’t get me wrong, I care very much about my job performance and want to do well, but I learned a long time ago to mind my business…..and when I do have a problem with someone, I speak to them and try to solve it first before running to the boss. I just felt Kim was too eager to tell our manager, before we even got to tell Linda like decent colleagues.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Okay, too many easy pits to fall into.
          Kim was too eager to tell your manager something was wrong with Linda.
          Your manager can be harsh so you want to protect Linda from that.
          Linda can be slow but she is great at her job.
          You’re starting to get sucked into the drama.

          It is up to these three people to manage their relationships with each other. If you keep trying to choreograph this, you will have such a headache.
          Each person here is responsible for their own short comings, let them carry that burden, do not ease their paths by carrying the burden for them.

          I tried playing the role of UN peacekeeper. What happens next was everyone started firing shots at ME. This is a predictable and recurring pattern.

          I was at a job a while back, where the boss said to me “Sue says that Jane is not pulling her weight. You work with Jane. What do you see?”
          Okay now I am on the spot. I told him the truth. I said I spoke directly to Jane and told her if she did not pick up the pace she would have to call an ambulance for me, because I am going to keel over.
          The boss said “And what happened next?”
          I said that was the end of the problem.
          So he wanted to know why Sue did not do that. I said “Dunno, ask Sue”.

          My Sue was your Kim. Kim has told you and showed you who she is and how she goes at things. Going forward don’t give her any advice at the same time do not cover for other people. Insist upon people building their own relationships with each other. That means if Kim complains to you about anyone, just simply say, “I’m sorry to hear that. Did you try talking that over with Bob?”

          1. Carrie*

            Thanks for your thoughts and understanding. I mentioned this to a few people, and they echo what you say about trying to be peacekeeper: it will only come back at me.
            That being said, I will take your advice and the next time Kim complains about someone-which is often-I’ll kindly say “did you talk to them about it?”. I definitely see who Kim is and I am going to be more cautious. Do you think I should mention anything to Kim Monday, or just let it go? I’m thinking letting it go may be best…

  124. Carrie*

    Me again, sorry.

    I just want to be clear that what also made me uncomfortable is that Kim was presenting this as a “we” thing to our manager, when it wasn’t. She can have her opinions, but I was annoyed because I felt she was involving me.

    1. fposte*

      And that makes sense to me as something to bring to Kim. It sounds like that isn’t what you addressed with her, though, and that you made it sound like she shouldn’t be talking about Linda to your boss, and that it’s for you to say. I’d have been pretty startled by your comments if I were Kim, and I probably would not have received them with delight. One possibility is for you to follow up and say “On reflection, I got sidetracked and I’m sorry. Mostly I just don’t want to be included in a ‘we’ in a situation like that, because I’d rather deal with any issues on my own unless we’ve planned this discussion together.”

      1. Carrie*

        Right. Like I said, I do agree with Kim to an extant, but wasn’t planning on discussing this with our manager. When Kim and I discussed Linda falling behind, which was not done so in a vicious way, we ended by saying we would talk together in our next group discussion with Linda. I was taken aback that she brought this to our manager right away, in a very sharp tone, before we even got to talk to Linda. I wasn’t trying to tell Kim what to do, but I think you’re right in that I could have approached it differently.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          People like Kim can be teachers in around about way. They make us think, make us define/hone what we are striving for and they teach us to speak more clearly and accurately.

          Go to Kim. Explain what you have said here. Tell her it won’t happen again, you will be more clear in the future.

          1. Carrie*

            I’m a bit apprehensive to do this now….I want to smooth things over, but at the same time, I’m apprehensive to even go near the subject now, since I now know that I can’t trust her

  125. Savannah*

    I forgo going to a destination wedding a close family member because of a large project at work. Due to visa troubles the guests wont be coming in after all and the whole week event is canceled. I brought up the possibility of going to the wedding in two weeks from now with my boss today (its in Israel, which means it would likely be a week long endeavor) and he mentioned it sounded interesting and that he was concerned with x,y,and z but that it was up to me to decide. That is code for no right? Now I’m left wondering what he wants me to decide.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I would say he means “as long as you have a plan for x, y, and z to still happen as they need to happen, it’s your choice.” If it were me I’d assume that means if I’m willing to put in the extra hours now to make sure things stya on track, it’s fine to go!

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      It means your boss needs to learn how to give a definitive damn answer!

      I would come up with a plan fast about how to handle X, Y, and Z, present it to him, and say, “If we do this, are you comfortable with me being out of the office?”

  126. voluptuousfire*

    I had an interesting day yesterday. I had applied for a position with a staffing agency on LinkedIn and had spoken with the recruiter about it. It turned out to be a bit too entry level for me but she told me about a position that had just opened up with them. She sent me the job description and I read it over and thought it sounded interesting and met with her yesterday. I had thought it was going to be a meet and greet to see if I was presentable enough to have my resume handed into the client. Turns out the role was with them, which I hadn’t anticipated. I ended up doing really well and the recruiter and her colleagues were really excited about my experience. It was so pleasant and the role is a pretty good fit. It plays to my strengths and it’s flexible enough that I could work from the office that’s a 20 minute drive from my house a few times a week. It would also be a 20% pay raise over my last job, which is fantastic.

    Wish me luck!

  127. LV Ladybug*

    What are some of the worst comments you have had while doing interviews?

    I once had a lady say that she is a work-aholic and when she is not working she contemplates suicide.

    1. Crazy Me!*

      Ooooooh I have a good one! As we were discussing his work history, this guy kept complaining about how his dying mother had kept him from getting a job. He actually said to me, “You know, I told her I wouldn’t be falling behind on my bills if I didn’t have to take care of you. So she started crying.” I wanted to boot him out on his ass right then and there.

      1. CoffeeLover*

        I don’t think that’s that weird depending on the context. People wink to show they’re joking. Was he making a joke or was he trying to seduce you? I wouldn’t dismiss someone for the former.

    3. soitgoes*

      Not quite the same thing, but when I was being interviewed, a prospective employer looked as my resume and asked if I reaaaaaaaaalllllllllllly actually wanted to work. He was really put off by the college-sized gap in my resume, as if I weren’t IN SCHOOL during those years.

    4. Anx*

      While we were involved in interviewing provosts for our university someone else on our committee asked me, weeks later, what a provost was.

  128. Jackie*

    I’m applying for a job at an organisation that I did my internship at and currently still volunteer with. The hiring manager for the position was my direct supervisor for my internship and I still see her from time to time when I volunteer.

    I submitted my application through the regular channel (i.e. the generic HR email address) but feel like I might should reach out directly to my former supervisor. However, I am at a loss of exactly what to say. I don’t want to seem pushy. Is this a good idea? If so, any suggestion on the wording?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Yes! This is a great idea. It can be a very simple and short note, letting her know that you applied and are very interested. How much you valued what you learned during your internship. Stuff like that.

      1. BRR*

        Ditto to TotesMaGoats. This is one of those times where it is ok to reach out to a hiring manager. Only do it by email, not when you run into her

    2. AVP*

      Definitely do this! Totes’ note ideas are great. As an intern supervisor I would be more weirded out if a former intern didn’t email me directly in this case.

      1. AVP*

        Oh, here’s one I recently got that I liked…

        Dear AVP, How are things going? {funny anecdote that reminded me of who he is}

        I’m writing because this posting for a “POSITION” at COMPANY just popped up in my job search and I’m really interested. After interning at COMPANY, I went on to RELATED school at COLLEGE and have been doing FIELD work since. Professionally, I’ve mostly worked as an POSITION but I’ve also done some RELATED WORK. Anyway, I’d really love the chance to throw my hat in the ring as I enjoyed my time interning at COMPANY and think I could be a good fit.

        I’m mainly emailing you directly to give you a heads up because I’ve only just seen this listing online and I want to get together a legitimate cover letter but I’m also very conscious of the volume these online job postings attract. I’m attaching my resume. Hope all is well and send my regards to CEO. Thanks for your time.

        The job had already been filled by the time I got this, but if it hadn’t been I would have interviewed him, and now I have him in my freelance pipeline. (My one note is that he wouldn’t really have needed to send a new formal cover letter, because I know his work pretty well, but if there’s an HR person who also needs to sign off then that would make sense.)

    3. Jackie*

      Thanks everyone for the comments! I will definitely do this then. And thanks AVP for posting that email – it gives me a great idea of the tone to strike.

  129. C Average*

    A quick PSA for all my fellow office germ-phobes. (This came to mind because I just had a conversation with a colleague about it.)

    If you’ve got one of those water coolers with the spout you press your cup against, don’t ever use it. When sick people come to work, they drink lots of fluids, refilling their cups from the water cooler. Most people rarely wash their water cups because they only put water in them. So that lever is in constant contact with sick-people germs. Stay healthy. Use the tap instead.

  130. WannaBeTechie*

    I have a job interview at a tech company next week! It’s the first time I’ll be interviewing at a tech company. For those of you who work in the tech industry, what do you recommend wearing to the interview? I’m a woman in her 20s interviewing for an HR position. This isn’t a startup, but more along the lines of Apple, Google, and Facebook. I’m coming from a very traditional, conservative industry. Any tips – interview outfit-related or otherwise – appreciated!

    1. voluptuousfire*

      I actually interviewed with Google for an operations position last spring and I wore a black shift dress and a cobalt blue blazer over it. I wore pantyhose and my favorite patent nude heels and carried my coral/peachy colored job interview tote and I had a floral scarf that had the same shades of blue and coral tied to my bag. I also wore my favorite dangling gold necklace with it. I looked professional but not stuffy. I don’t think you need to wear pantyhose but when I wear a skirt to an interview, I do because I’m very fair and they make my legs look better.

        1. voluptuousfire*

          Welcome! Actually, my outfit would have been a great one for an HR role at a tech company like Google. LOL. Too bad they never got back to me. :(

          With tech I don’t think you need to go full on suit.

          1. AnonymousMiss*

            Agreed! I would totally wear that to work on a normal, non-interview day, but with a cardigan. :)

    2. Colette*

      A full matched suit is probably not necessary, but it should be fine to wear. A dress & blazer are fine as well.

      Most high tech places I’ve worked understand that people dress up for interviews, even if they dress more casually once they’re employees. You’re still better to err on the side of dressier rather than showing up in jeans.

    3. Loren*

      I had one interview where they specifically told me *not* to wear a suit at a similar company. I went with dress pants and a fairly structured linen shirt in a bright blue.

  131. voluptuousfire*

    I’m considering buying a nice looking blazer to put over a black sheath dress I have and I found this pic posted on the Facebook profile of a store I found and I’ve fallen in love with this skirt suit:

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/p720x720/10428471_10152413839807705_6761935366387611672_n.jpg?oh=ebaedfa2c9903c6522931039b303b201&oe=54BF9A98&__gda__=1422585965_96fb327b7352e7705616c2aea50deb13

    It’s a little flamboyant but it’s so pretty and I would feel so confident and fabulous in it. It’s also really reasonably priced (the skirt and blazer run about 50 bucks combined). Would this be a bit too much for interviews? Obviously not in a conservative environment, moreso for more creative environments.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Is it as high-waisted as it looks in the photo? That aspect of it feels more edgy than I’d ideally want for an interview suit (and also likely to feel dated more quickly than a more classic cut would).

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Looking at it on the website, it does appear to be, yes. Having said that, for someone like me, high waisted things usually work better for me because it holds me in. I also have a black camisole I can wear untucked over the high waist. That’s probably how I would wear it.

        1. voluptuousfire*

          If I did buy it, I’d reserve it for interviews that were more creative/modern, say an ad agency or a start up or something. I wouldn’t wear this to an interview at a hedge fund or investment bank. I have a great navy suit for that.

          1. voluptuousfire*

            I’d probably just get the blazer at this point. I’d use it a lot more and it would go with 99% of my wardrobe.

            1. Nina*

              I think that’s smart. You’ll definitely get more wear out of the blazer.

              I don’t see houndstooth as being flamboyant, but rather a busy pattern, so I wouldn’t wear the skirt and the blazer. The black sheath should balance the blazer. Plus, you can always take the blazer off if you’re concerned. I think you’ll be OK.

              Good luck!

  132. Shell*

    A kitty’s comments reminded me… Dear Bad Kitty and all other people doing quality assurance/audits (in regards to certification and compliance, not financial): how did you get into that? What’s it like when it’s not audit time?

    I of course had a QA person at my lab, but no one I knew (lab techs mainly) really knew what it is they DO every day. A cursory google search doesn’t give me Degree of QA either, so I’m curious as to what this field is/do/how to get there! (I know day to day tasks will vary by industry, I’m just thinking in terms of general curiosity.)

    1. QualityControlFreak*

      Shell, search RABQSA for more info on this. It is industry specific but you can look through the different standards to see what would be applicable to your field. I got into it through an internal move at my last job. And it’s always audit time. We may visit your area once a year, but there are many other areas. I run the internal audit program, so for me there’s not much of a break. As for day to day, I do a lot of writing. Procedures, reports, internal and external communications. A lot of research and statistics. Finally, and most exhaustingly, a lot of dealing with people. One trainer in an internal auditing class described the job as the art of telling nice people – who are also your employers – things they’d really rather not hear, but need to know. People can be very defensive. Sometimes those people are coworkers; sometimes they’re your boss.

  133. AnonymousMiss*

    I need some advice on getting out of my current job while staying at the same company. I started my job several months ago, but I’ve been in the company for 2 years in a different department with a different manager. I love the work that I do. The culture at the company is great, the benefits are fantastic and the commute is as good as it can get. To top it off, my pay is about $20k higher than the norm for jobs like mine, at my level.

    Problem is, my new boss is horrible – she’s vengeful, petty and doesn’t work well with others. Lately, she has taken a turn for the worse and I can’t take it anymore. I started applying to jobs and going on interviews and I think I have a good shot at getting a job offer soon.

    Problem number two is that I really don’t want to leave for the reasons above. I truly would be leaving a great job because of my manager only. My plan was to tough it out for a year or two, but since a couple weeks ago when I confronted my boss respectfully about an issue that came up, she has been doing retaliation-like things, like giving me rush projects only to say she didn’t need my work after all once I completed the task.

    I want to talk to HR to see if there’s a way I can get transferred to another department or something but still stay at the company. If not, I would regretfully have to leave the company, but I really don’t want to – I don’t think I want to tell HR that, but that’s the reality.

    Has anyone gone through this? What should I do? What should I say to HR?

    1. Also gonna be anon for now*

      Oh my goodness, I feel your pain. I had a good gig at my current company until a new bigwig came in who wanted to change everything. He and I clashed right off. The only reason I kept my job was that my clients loved me and particularly insisted on my presence — but I knew that the second that client left or reduced their budget, I’d be out.

      I did manage to work with another department and create a new role for myself…and then bigwig was just fired. This annoys the poo-poo out of me, because I didn’t need to go through all this rigmarole to create a role that I now have to work hard to prove is necessary.

      But, yes, I was able to move. I think the key is that you don’t talk to HR (beyond, say, asking what job openings are available), you talk to the people in the department you’d like to move to. HR isn’t going to trump a department manager and say “you need to bring AnonymousMiss onto your team” if the manager doesn’t know you. But if you have a good rapport with someone in another department, you can talk to him/her and ask about whether you could transition into that department. And then, if they like you enough, they will work with you and with HR to make that happen.

    2. Graciosa*

      Possibly there are some specific circumstances where HR would be able to help, but I’m not sure that HR is as likely to be able to get you transferred as you wish (absent a major legal issue like FMLA compliance, for example). This is going to sound like you are basically just complaining about your boss – but HR has less authority than you think to deal with those types of issues. They generally do not have hiring and firing authority within the business although they can counsel the people who do (again, with some exceptions for truly egregious behavior).

      If HR does intervene, it would be more likely to focus on counseling your boss, who would then be informed of the reason for the intervention. Your boss does not sound like someone who would respond well to this, and it doesn’t get you out from under her. She would likely remain in her role even if asked to improve her managerial style.

      If you want to focus on making a move to another department, I would suggest you do what you can to make yourself an attractive candidate for the hiring manager for that team. Treat it like a job search within the company, but assume you need to do it yourself.

      You may end up needing to leave the company, and starting an external job search just as soon as your internal one is probably the safer course. In most cases, the right time to talk about possibly leaving the company is when you’re actually submitting your resignation.

      I realize that this is not what you wanted to hear, but I don’t want you to stay in this situation longer than necessary because you’re hoping HR will save you. Most of the time, that really isn’t their job. There may be some rare exceptions out there, but considering that leaving a manager is one of the major reasons people leave an employer the odds are not in your favor.

      I was once in a similar situation, and I can honestly say that even at the time (many years ago when I had a lot less experience) I knew that there was no point in going to HR with this type of an issue. I was fortunate enough to be rescued by another manager who got me reassigned to his team, but I would have had to leave the company if that hadn’t happened.

      Maybe your case will be a rare exception (I admit it’s possible) but I think the odds are very much against it. You have my sympathy, and my best wishes.

  134. Lizzie*

    Ugh, I’m having a moment that seems to pop up in so many AAM letters: I was hired to do X, but changing needs in my workplace mean I’m going to have to start spending significant time on Y. I dislike Y. I took this job specifically because I didn’t want to do Y. I love my bosses, I love my coworkers, I love my work environment, and I’m not eager to make a move that would potentially make me ineligible for rehire down the road. Guess I need to weigh things out.

      1. Lizzie*

        Two months. I realize that’s not very long, but the amount of Y that needs to be done has quickly gone beyond what the one person assigned to that area can realistically do herself, but rather than hiring a second person to do it, the solution is to reassign me to focus primarily on Y and divide up X among other employees. Blergh.

  135. Al Lo*

    My new assistant is a smoker, and it’s getting harder to deal with the longer he’s here.

    It doesn’t impact his work time — he takes the shortest smoke breaks I’ve ever seen, goes outside and out of sight, and is very visually discreet about it — but because he sucks them back so fast, he just reeks when he comes back in. I’m starting to feel like the smell is stuck in my nostrils when I leave for the day. I don’t think it’s sticking to my clothes, but I can’t tell anymore, because the smell seems to linger after I’m not around him anymore.

    We share an office, and there’s no way to escape it, really. I find that I’m putting my hand to my nose, or burying my nose in a scarf or something when he first walks back into the room after a break, when the smell is the worst, but I feel really rude doing that. Still, if it’s that or smell it, I’d rather be a little rude.

    Any suggestions?

    1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I think you can broach this as a “Hey, the smell when you smoke kinda bothers me. Is it possible for you to E-cig during the day? Or if it would dissipate more if you hung out outside a few extra minutes, please know that’s totally OK.” Try being sort of friendly and polite, but with solutions, and see if it improves.

    2. Lizzie*

      My first thought is an air freshener, but those can also be overpowering. (A coworker of mine has one that actually gives me a headache.) Would the air circulation/redirection provided by a fan help? I realize that running a fan in winter might be odd.

    3. Nanc*

      Oy, I feel your pain. I have an exceptionally good sniffer and smoke, perfume and BO give me headaches to the point of vomiting–and it takes very little of the smell. I’m lucky to work where it’s not an issue now but in the past I’ve just refused to share an office with a smoker–I’d rather sit out in a cube. If that’s not an option, it’s an issue the same as if he wore too much cologne or didn’t bathe on a regular basis. Try to work it out with him by flat out stating the smell is affecting your ability to work and ask him to think about what could be done. Mints? Air freshener? One of those machines that’s supposed to neutralize the smell? Can one or both of you sit somewhere else for a bit when he comes back from a smoke break?

    4. BRR*

      Ugh we have a couple of smokers that smell awful. One tries to cover it with cologne which by the way never works. I respect the right of people to smoke but if it’s aggravating other people you need to fix it. It’s not ok.

    5. fposte*

      Smoking jacket? Seriously, some modern version thereof, like a jean jacket or something, that he puts on when he goes to smoke and then takes off and leaves in a bag or something before he gets back into the office?

      1. Livin' in a Box*

        A smoking jacket makes a huge difference. He might not be able to afford a jacket just for smoking; if that’s the case, buy him one for Christmas and enjoy your nice smelling air.

        1. voluptuousfire*

          What would be better if it was an authentic smoking jacket. Why not look dapper? You could probably find one on eBay or something.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      If he takes a few deep breaths outside he may reduce that smoky smell. People walk back into a room and they are still exhaling smoke and do not realize. Tell him to take a few smoke free deep breaths to purge the residue on top before coming into work.

    7. Tmarie*

      I don’t know if you’ll come back to this since I saw it so late. Ask your assistant what he does with his cigarette butts. I had a former co-worker who would quickly smoke 1/2 cigarette, snuff it out, and put it the other half back in his pack. STINKS SO BAD. And as a smoker, he wouldn’t notice that.

  136. 7 months into my job*

    I’m a recent graduate in my first real professional job. It’s great: I’m learning a lot and feel I have the potential to grow. My company is a non-profit organization that actually generates revenue. The good news is that my company is undergoing a major transition in the systems they use and I may have an advantage because I am familiar with the technology they are adopting. I definitely feel in a while I can get a leg up over my coworkers who have to learn everything new.

    We get annual raises every year, but the percentage is quite small. I bombed my negotiations since it’s my first real job, so I’m stuck with my low salary for year. I’d like to know if I can negotiate my salary again in a year or two given that everyone just gets annual raises.

    1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      Well, yes and no. Really, any time that a raise happens, it’s kinda an opportunity to negotiate, because you can always attempt to negotiate a larger raise. But that’s what you’re going to be able to do… you can’t really say “You hired me at $30K, but I should have negotiated up to $35K, so I’m wanting to negotiate an extra $5K a year now.”

    2. Graciosa*

      Kimberlee is right that you can’t expect the company to make up for what you didn’t do when you took the job. However, you can make arguments for a higher-than-normal raised based on your extraordinary performance or value in the marketplace.

      You might think about how to parlay your familiarity with the new technology into a significant contribution or accomplishment. For example, can you take a major role in the transition, suggest improvements for the implementation, conduct significant training / mentor your co-workers on the new technology, etc. Just learning the system more quickly than others may not be the type of demonstrable benefit to the company that your employer would look for, but you should be able to come up with something if you’re willing to put in the effort.

      You want to make the case for a raise so obvious that it is easy to grant – or if not, that another employer will look at your track record of achievement and hire you at the salary you demonstrated you’re worth.

      Best wishes –

  137. Anon for this!*

    Hey all. I’ve mentioned before on here that I have some chronic health issues, but I have yet to get a solid diagnosis. I have a family history of a set of genetic disorders related to the same genes, but there’s a good chance I’ll never get a name for what’s happening since many of the symptoms pop up in family members that don’t have a full fledged disorder. I’ve been dealing with this for about a year, including trying to find medications that work without causing bad side effects, and I’ve had probably one sick day a month this whole time.

    I’ve explained what’s going on to my managers and they’ve said it’s fine the whole way. In my performance review this week, however, they said I was dropped a rating mostly due to attendance issues. I’ve never had a sick day that caused problems (no missed client meetings or deadlines or whathaveyou) but they don’t like that I’m occasionally unavailable, even though I offer to work from home (not allowed) and check email to make sure there are no crises.

    I’m not entirely sure what to do with this information. On the one hand, I take more sick days than is normal. On the other, I am sick more than is normal. I’ve been very careful to make sure it’s not a performance issue past management wanting butts in seats. I would be more than happy to work remotely (my issues mostly involve getting around & mobility or GI issues that keep me in the bathroom, so I’m usually fine to work but not to go out) but this is not allowed in my department even though it is in the company as a whole.

    For extra fun, I had just been wondering what to do about my worsening issues. Earlier this week I had to carry a tiny package to the mail room but my dexterity was so poor it became difficult to hold the box halfway there. I’m having more and more trouble opening the many heavy doors throughout the building. This exacerbation of symptoms has been sudden but my doctors don’t have any explanations or reassurances. We’re systematically ruling things out but last week they said they’re unlikely to find a neat diagnosis (not unusual with my family history), and I can expect more meds with more uncomfortable side effects. They say I can expect it to get worse.

    I’ve been terrified all year that this would detrimentally affect my career and it’s finally happening, I guess. My job does require me to be here in person and run around a lot and I love my work. I don’t want to have to move to something else because of my stupid joints.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I’m sorry. It’s frustrating enough to deal with health woes when you know what they are. I can’t remember–are you/this workplace eligible for FMLA? If so, that’s what you want–intermittent FMLA.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think at some point they will have to designate some type of diagnosis because the insurance company will insist on it. It almost becomes irrelevant what the word is that they use because no insurance means no treatment for most people.

      I hope they find something that helps you.

  138. Orange Juice*

    Several members of my department were laid off or quit. In response, my manager invited the remaining team members to her house. It was not optional to attend. When we got there, she had crafting supplies out. We chatted, had wine, and made fall wreaths.

    It was weird…and condescending. My team was hoping to discuss the direction of the department, but instead we uncomfortably made small talk. That’s weird, right!?

    1. The Other Dawn*

      Yeah, that’s pretty weird. Is the department all women?? Not that men can’t craft, but it seems like something one would do only if it’s an all-female department. Not that that’s an excuse or normal.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          Ick. I’d be pissed, too. Maybe she figured it was a good way to bond, and for people to feel comforted and take their minds off the layoffs. Misguided and out of touch, of course. I’m surprised she didn’t want to have everyone braid each other’s hair.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’m not crafty. My fall wreath would probably look like a wraith that fell from a tree, was run over by an 18 wheeler, and then scavenged on by coyotes and vultures. In your situation, some of that might even be deliberate.

    3. imachocoteapot*

      … was she trying to get the rest of you to quit? I had a manager who invited us all over for a movie night when she finally realized that people were getting frustrated and burned out. Luckily it was optional, but one of my co-workers who went definitely snooped in her bathroom.

      1. Orange Juice*

        It felt like it! She briefly mentioned the chaos of the week, begged the remaining members not to leave and said if we left our desks for too long, she would assume we were scheduling interviews on our cell phones.

        Then we went back to gluing pine cones and other nonsense to foam. Ridiculous.

        1. imachocoteapot*

          Wow, that is so terrible. If/when you quit, you should make a foam and pine cone resignation letter.

  139. TheExchequer*

    So, I’ve been put in charge of things I know nothing about while my boss is out of the office. I think that means I’m about to make the leap (or have already lept, at least in his eyes) to the m word . . . manager. So I have to now reread everything in this blog with a whole new attitude – mostly: “Wait, what did Allison say about this again?”.

    I’m not really panicking (yet?), but I did notice that I have gotten a LOT busier all of a sudden. (Lesson #1 I’m learning as a manager-in-all-but-name: Prioritizing Is Important). I know Allison has given all sorts of advice to new managers – anyone else have words of wisdom for a first time manager they’d like to pass on?

    1. Graciosa*

      Keep in mind what you’re there to do.

      Managers generally are responsible for ensuring some particular scope of work is done well. The employees are the ones who actually do the work. You succeed when they do.

      First, stay out of their way. This means that you don’t ask for unnecessary reporting, you don’t micromanage, and you generally don’t make it harder for them to do their jobs.

      Second, you remove obstacles for your employees. This may mean advocating for supplies/ funding / training, giving candid feedback to individuals to help them improve, or removing problem employees who are a drain on the team. It also means shielding them from political difficulties, demands for unnecessary work, and stupid policies. If lack of information / communication is an obstacle (this is more common than you think) you fix this by telling them what’s going on and sharing the reasons for your decisions.

      Listen to your employees, and never forget that your job as a manager is one that puts you in their service (despite the number of misguided managers who think it’s the other way around).

      Best wishes.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Take the attitude that you are there to serve. Serve your people, serve your bosses, heck even serve others of lower rank in other departments.
      This attitude will carry you gracefully through many situations that are baffling.

  140. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Little vent and then I’m out for dinner with the family.

    BUSY busy season, we’ve been busting ass.

    So there’s yet more new staff in our corporate finance dept, which, I don’t have a lot of emotional energy left to do my normal “lets build great relations between my division and the finance people” thing I usually do + more new faces? Why don’t I see if this one sticks first.

    Anyway, I’m trying to iron out our Canadian supply procedures and had to go over some stuff about UPS charges. Controller directs me to New Fiance Director Woman as the new point person responsible for UPS review. Go into her office, exchange pleasantries, ask her to notify me if she sees this that and the other thing on the bills.

    She screws up her face like pickle.

    I say, hmmm, okay, is that going to be a problem?

    She flings her hands in the air.

    “look at your bills, just look at this.”

    Pulls up the spreadsheet from the last two weeks.

    “You’ve spent $85,000 in UPS charges in the last two weeks alone!”

    I don’t know what to say so I speak s-l-o-w-l-y.

    “Um, Gertrude, you do realize that all of those charges are attached to orders, right?”

    She blinks.

    “That’s freight. For orders. For customers. For the sales we make. More UPS charges means good sign.”

    She says “oh”. And then agrees to flag me if she can comes across the information I was looking for.

    FFS! and LOL! and………..glad it is Friday!!

  141. Kevin*

    Do hiring managers for office jobs consider retail experience as a plus ever?

    I’m currently full-time retail (promoted from part-time after three months if that helps) and looking for an office job. I didn’t do an internship during grad school (was only a TA) and can’t imagine trying to be a reliable volunteer due to my changing schedule. I’m applying for entry level but my recent experience is all teaching. Do people ever have luck using retail as recent experience?

    1. Nanc*

      I’m fine with retail. Let’s face it, you learn communication (difficult customers, anyone?!), you learn to deal with money (although why I could balance a $50,000 cash drawer in one try 25 years ago, by hand, and today can’t seem to reconcile our $25 petty cash budge in Excel . . . ), you learn to work with a variety of coworkers and so on. Can you think of how to phrase your retail experience to reflect what happens in an office environment? Did you have to do any training? Answer phones? Cover for other departments? Order inventory? These are all transferable skills.

      Good luck!

    2. The Other Dawn*

      I think retail experience is a plus. I’ve been in retail and I know the crap retail workers put up with on a daily basis: from customers, vendors, and managers. I think it helps you learn to communicate effectively and work under pressure. Not to mention how to kill ’em with kindness when all you want to do is punch them. :)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      These reasons PLUS you learn how to take absolutely nothing and whip it up into something in a flash. Creativity using resources on hand.

  142. imachocoteapot*

    I’ve been scanning job postings and applying selectively. Saw a position that seemed kind of cool, until I got to the application instructions:
    Interested and qualified candidates can apply by sending the following to: [redacted]
    Cover Letter
    Resume
    Link to a 3-5 minute video (youtube or vimeo) — in the video:
    Introduce yourself, talk about relevant previous experience, and about your interest in the position
    Answer the following:
    Why do you love events?
    What’s your single greatest accomplishment?
    What were you for halloween last year?
    What’s your favorite movie?
    If you could have any super power, what would it be?

    Now I’m thinking, do I actually want to work there?

    1. Adam*

      I might want an interview, if for no other reason to see what this place is really like.

      But there is a fine line between quirky and annoying as hell.

      1. imachocoteapot*

        I was excited because of “On Mondays we work from home!” (Mean Girls reference!) Maybe I’ll say my superpower is having a job, and then wink.

  143. Jennifer*

    I just want to post an end of the day rant. Sadly can’t really get advice on this though.

    My coworkers are terrible at proofreading. We have a giant pile of work in my specialty area (I’ve been doing it for over 10 years, they got assigned to it 2 years ago) and they just do. not. check. anything. I’ve trained them. My boss has trained them. The guy who used to do them has trained them. We have tons of cheat sheets. I have done reminders. My boss has done reminders. But they do not check. We basically have to hit the magic button that puts in about 80% of things and then we check the other 20% for errors and they are not. doing. it. ever. I keep finding evidence that they’re not proofreading and I have to clean up their mess because they can’t be arsed to check, or can’t see, or don’t think, or whatever. They are not a help to me. (They’re also really slow at it, but that’s not the worst thing compared to just straight up turning out incorrect work.) I wish they would just assign me to do these all by myself again without their help, and just put them to doing the stuff I do that they are good at. If I were my boss, I would have no idea how to make them do it either. She’s asked them, “Do you need extra training?” and they are all “noooooooo…..” Come on.
    The other day another coworker not in my group was finding a bunch of errors that her now-retired coworker had made, and one of mine got all grumbly at me like “how dare she say bad things about her.” Look, I like the lady personally too, but speaking as the person who has to clean up YOUR mess, I can’t blame the other chick for being annoyed. I feel the same way. But there’s nothing that can be done, even if I had the power to officially nag/bitch/write up, etc.

    Thus endeth the rant.

    1. B*

      Just keep giving the work back to them until they do it right?
      Otherwise, PIP, surely? They’re not doing part of their job….
      As the office proofreader of choice for everyone, I feel ya!!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, if this was me, I would have been written up by now.

        It sounds like these people cannot do their jobs and yet they keep getting paid. Looks like insubordination to me.

  144. John John*

    I’d like to start an active and quiet search for a new job with a different employer. I’m currently in middle management in a relatively small industry, and I’ve realized that I just won’t break into the “inner circle” of upper management. So be it. Regardless, it’s a good company and to find a new employer who is currently a supplier to my current employer would not only be ideal but also fits into the pattern of the logical career progression.
    Here’s the issue: most of my connections were made through working at my current gig. and none of them want to be seen as “poaching” employees. They have excellent relationships with the “inner circle” as much as with me. Has anyone been in this situation? How can I approach these companies quietly and ask for discretion in my search, even if it’s with the competition? I really fear they may turn around and tell upper management “John’s asking us for a job.”

  145. Looby*

    Did anyone read “Ask Amy” today about the worker who got fired for being late so often? http://tinyurl.com/ohtzqbt Any thoughts on her response? I think the worker showed a complete lack of self-awareness. If I was them, there is no way I’d apply for another job so quickly after being fired from the other department.

    1. BRR*

      I would place a good amount of money of them not getting a job at the same company. The hiring manager is going to ask the other manager about the candidate or the LW could be blacklisted by HR. When I was fired I was told my candidacy would not be considered for future positions.

    2. CoffeeLover*

      Ya, as BRR mentioned, most companies blacklist fired employees (whether formally or informally). The LW was asking how she should do it not if it was a good idea, so Amy’s response is alright. She does point out the audacity of the move. And to be fair, the LW can’t really do serious damage here. She’ll look bad doing it, but I mean they fired her for her absence so I can’t imagine they have a good opinion of her.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      The LW does not understand how serious the tardiness problem was. But Amy did answer her question. I guess LW will have a learning experience.

  146. amapola*

    So I’m looking for a new position. Let’s say that my company is an agency that markets chocolate teapots for a lot of big companies. The positions I’m looking at are in-house teapot marketing roles (or related roles in communications), and many of the openings in my area are at the same big companies that use my company as a vendor. Typically the companies are so big that it’s highly unlikely my application would cross the desk of a contact of mine, but it is possible. Do I need to take this into account when applying? (I’m not planning on leveraging any contacts to get a job; more worried about someone finding out accidentally.)

    Also, along similar lines: I’m worried about butting up against my company’s noncompete clause … but I don’t have a copy of my signed contract with the noncompete clause in it. Is this a problem, and if so, how can I get a hold of it without it being a major red flag at my current job?

    1. Graciosa*

      Sometimes you can ask HR (instead of your manager) for a copy of something in your file without setting off alarm bells – it really depends on the company. Not knowing what else was in your contract, I don’t know if there is anything else that would serve as a neutral pretext for asking for a copy, but think about it. Also, if anyone else who would have signed an equivalent document leaves the company, you might ask them if they would be willing to quietly let you take a look at theirs.

      You could also try speaking to an employment lawyer in your state (even without the document). In some jurisdictions, clauses that are too restrictive in how they limit an individual’s ability to earn a living are unenforceable.

      That said, it sounds like you’re looking for a role in which you would be moving to a customer rather than a competitor. Your current employer’s willingness to sue a customer to stop an employee from moving in house is probably low – especially considering you might be presumed to want that customer account to stay with the people you already know. Because of that, this type of move is pretty normal (and even encouraged) in a lot of industries – however, you are probably better positioned to know if your employer or industry takes a different view.

      Good luck.

  147. Jessica*

    I just finished the second week at my new job (woot woot!) My official title is project manager, so I have a variety of tasks and have been assisting different departments as needed. How often should I be asking my supervisor for feedback? And how should I word it without sounding like I’m fishing for compliments?

    1. Graciosa*

      You have a bit more leeway requesting frequent feedback early in the job than you will after you’re well established. If you don’t want to just ask, I would position this as a bit of a status report on how you’re tackling your new position.

      Ask for some time with your boss and provide your own update first, along the lines of “During my first two weeks, I have focused on [developing relationships with other departments / learning the project manager software / gathering requirements for the new Chocolate Teapot Tempering proposal]. So far, I have [met with these key stakeholders / passed the proficiency test / incorporated all requirements into a first draft for your review], and I’m generally [pretty satisfied with my progress / concerned about whatever].” You can usually start to gauge your boss’ reaction as you report your focus and assessment, but you can also ask directly if you’re focusing on the right things, and if your boss agrees with your assessment or has any additional suggestions for how you can improve your performance. Status report and assessment can then transition into a discussion of your plans for the future and questions about what else should be included.

      The key to avoiding sounding like you’re fishing is to make it sound instead like you are a competent professional who has developed her own plan for mastering the job and is monitoring her own progress; you’re not fishing, you’re just checking your understanding and making sure you and your boss are aligned.

      All that said, there is really nothing wrong with asking for feedback from time to time, and a good boss will be not only able to give it but pleased with the request. The way to encourage more is to demonstrate that you can receive it professionally and act on it.

      Best wishes – and congratulations on your new job.

  148. Ellie*

    What are you supposed to do for a job when you absolutely despise doing things you do not enjoy? I just got fired from a job working at home being a call center representative of sorts. I worked with the company for a month. Earlier this year I was working at a daycare center, and even though I liked the kids, the company culture was horrible. I lasted two weeks. I just can’t even try to fake doing a job if I don’t love it. I need to be challenged, I need room to be independent, find solutions to problems. I’m not the type of person who sits there and takes directions easily from a boss. Some people want a job for stability, security, to make money… I want it to do my passion on a daily basis, change the world, make a ruckus. Ugh. It’s been so hard finding a company that is a good fit.

    1. Ineloquent*

      All jobs have some aspects that are horrible and some aspects that are fun. I think you need to spend time focusing on the fun, challenging bits and glossing over the less exciting things that you have to do. Most of the world changing ruckus causing jobs take a while to get into – use your time in the less fun positions grooming yourself to be a good fit for what you want. Learn what you’re supposed to do, and start looking for ways to make it more efficient or cost effective. That’s challenging work that can be done anywhere. Be a positive person, and don’t dwell on the bad stuff or complain to your coworkers. Develop a good relationship with your boss. Take on responsibilities that have been abandoned.
      Granted, call center environments may not be the best place to be doing this, but most office jobs have some room for employees to take iniative.
      Most of all, get over the tendancy many of us have of doing a less than steller job at something you don’t like to do. The calibure of work that you produce under those circumstances is, in my opinion, what defines your value as an employee. Anyone can do a great job at the stuff they love, but it takes an amazing employee to do at least as good a job on the crap tasks as well.

    2. Livin' in a Box*

      Call centre jobs are awful, but even in a call centre, you can do some of the stuff you want to do. You can solve problems and be challenged, for sure. You can’t change the world, but you can do nice things for customers and make their day better (the ones who deserve it). You need to make the job you’re stuck with work for you.

    3. Graciosa*

      There are a few things that jump out at me from your letter.

      You can’t even try to fake doing a job if you don’t love it.
      You need room to be independent.
      You don’t want to sit there and take direction from a boss.
      You want to change the world, make a ruckus.

      I want you to understand that I’m not telling you this to be cruel, but to see if considering this viewpoint will help you. You don’t sound like a great employee for traditional employment.

      In most companies, you will be working for a boss and yes, you will need to take direction. Companies tend to be hierarchical (although there are some rare unconventional exceptions) and a position where you can walk in the door, ignore the boss’ orders, and make whatever changes you want will be hard to find.

      Employers also tend to want to employ people who are generally pleasant to be around (especially when we’re stuck in their company for many hours every day) and who do a decent job of managing the way they display emotions to other people at work. It is true that most jobs have some scutwork, and good managers understand that, but negativity does not add to the atmosphere.

      If you want to change your behavior to make yourself a better traditional employee, Ineloquent had some excellent suggestions. Good companies do look for opportunities to improve their operations, but you generally need to earn some credibility on the job to have your suggestions taken seriously.

      If you decide this just isn’t how you want to spend your life (which I understand and support as a valid choice) you need to find a career that meets your requirements. This is not going to be easy, but have you considered:

      Consulting (if there is something you love and can convince people to pay for – I don’t want to sound too cynical but consultants often descend on a company, analyze something, plan to improve it, report out to suggest major changes, and leave).

      Your own business / non-profit for a cause about which you are passionate (this requires you to be skilled and comfortable with sales / fundraising but genuine passion can go far).

      Task work (meaning TaskRabbit or similar if there are things you wouldn’t mind doing as an independent contractor who can choose what jobs to pursue / accept).

      Any type of creative work (if you have the talent to write, paint, sculpt or whatever at a level that people would pay for).

      If none of these are possible or appealing, I will hope that someday you will find a position and employer unconventional enough to allow you to flourish.

      Good luck.

      1. Ellie*

        ” You don’t sound like a great employee for traditional employment. ” Exactly! LOL you are a good judge of character :)

        I love non-profit work and have several years of experience working in education and non-profits. I am really loving all of the education technology companies popping up right now in Silicon Valley, etc. I have been trying to get into curriculum development but it is hard. I have been working as an independent contractor for a variety of things even beyond education but the money and work that comes with being a contractor just isn’t stable. Hence why I am looking for a ‘job’. Thank you for taking the time to reply. Best wishes to you xoxoxo :)

        1. Jennifer*

          You sound like someone who needs to run her own business rather than be bossed. I don’t know anything about your field, but in the long run you should probably be looking to do that if you absolutely can’t stomach anything other than the perfect job.

  149. Caroline*

    I would love anyone’s thoughts on this situation:

    I am about to start a job I know will be tough: like many of us, I needed to take the job rather than wanted to.

    I have heard it will be super fast-paced and that there are difficult people who hold up the process I’ll be working in. I’ve also heard the company culture isn’t great.

    I’m after suggestions to help myself tune out the difficult stuff and focus on doing what I do well.

    So far I have:
    · Found a personal coach from the industry to help me develop a personal development plan
    · Got assurance from my new manager that there is a budget for training
    · Joined a networking group for local people in my line of work
    · Joined a mentoring program
    · Moved to a nicer place so I have somewhere calm to go home to

    What else can I do? I have been badly affected by jobs in the past and really want to look after myself this time.

    1. Stephanie*

      Those all sound great.

      From a personal wellness standpoint:
      -Join a gym or find some other physical activity you can do on a regular basis (if you’re not already doing that).
      -Look into ways to improve your diet. If I’m going through a stressful situation, I find cutting back on the bad stuff (especially alcohol) really helps my mood, outlook, and stress levels.
      -Limit the amount of venting/complaining. My first job was pretty crappy and I found that complaining about it all the time just made the whole situation worse.

      I hope your fears are for naught!

      1. StudentA*

        Those are 3 excellent suggestions! Stephanie, my cravings go WILD when I am stressed out at work. So I would join Stephanie in urging you to eat healthfully and get your physical activity in. I also totally agree about the venting. Sure, we all need to on some occasion, but don’t let it become habit. Especially never let them see you sweat at work :)

      2. Trixie*

        Yes, limit the venting and instead focus on the work and what you can get done. So much more positive, and productive.

    2. voluptuousfire*

      Keep healthy snacks in your desk. If it’s extremely fast-paced, you may not have time to sit down and eat lunch. Having some almonds in your desk can help blood sugar crashes and hunger.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Have goals in your personal life. Short term, medium term and long term goals. Write them down. Plan out the steps. Stay on track no matter how badly work goes.

      Here’s why, if you have a tough job and NO progress in your personal life then all is lost. Build your goals and don’t even let a tornado interfere with your passage way to those goals.

    4. misspiggy*

      Also make sure you celebrate the good bits. ‘Good bits’ in this context may be different from what you hope for, but are just as much worth celebrating. For example, getting a piece of work done without disruption, or successfully overcoming a colleague’s attempt at making life difficult. Do something concrete to mark these occasions and reward yourself for getting through it, whether it’s reading a nice book, going for an outing or having a glass of wine.

      Also, humour. Dilbert taken in small doses is very comforting.

  150. Anonyby*

    Okay, minor question. If you see a job posting and it’s very much in line with what you want to do and the required skills match up with what you have, do you still reply if you see that they claim to disregard anyone who does not have experience in x industry?

    1. Stephanie*

      Sure, go for it. Worst case scenario, you never hear back and lose the hour (or however long) it takes to apply. If you do get called (or maybe you could address this in a cover letter), just be prepared to explain how you’ll compensate for not having specific industry experience.

      1. Anonyby*

        I’m slow as molasses when it comes to writing cover letters, so it’d be a good 3-4 hours lost if I tried applying for it.

    2. Graciosa*

      It’s not clear from your post, but can I assume you do not have the required experience in X industry?

      If it is listed as an essential job requirement that you don’t have, I probably wouldn’t waste my time – however, if you happen to be unemployed and all you have is time, you might decide to do so anyway even knowing the odds are (more than usually) against you.

      If it were listed as a preference rather than a clear claim not to even consider anyone without that experience, I would reverse my position and strongly encourage an application (with a great cover letter).

      Good luck.

      1. Anonyby*

        It’s not mentioned in their bullet list of requirements, but they do say elsewhere in the add, ” Only candidates who have a demonstrated track record working in X will be considered.”

        The thing is… the bullet list of requirements can apply to MANY industries, so it doesn’t make sense to restrict it.

        1. Graciosa*

          That sounds really frustrating. I work in a job that is available in a lot of industries, and have transferred between companies in unrelated fields so I understand how annoying it would be to be told in the ad that the employer won’t even consider the possibility that this can be done successfully.

          The hard part is that if this is listed as a requirement that you don’t have, you are likely to be screened out even if you do apply. It may be utter stupidity on the part of the employer, but that doesn’t improve your chances.

          The question is really what you will give up to invest 3-4 hours on an application / cover letter compared to your probability of success. If the answer is “Not much” then go for it. If working on this one would mean not getting to an application for a different job with a more sensible employer, the cost may be too high.

          I’m very sorry you’re facing this situation – best wishes.

    1. Ineloquent*

      What the hell?! It’s ok, because he’s powerful and he’ll make life hard for you?! Why would CBS allow such a peice of garbage to be posted on their site?

    2. Livin' in a Box*

      My favourite quote: “women at the IMF dress carefully to keep men from bugging them”. We all know that dressing carefully works every time!

      My brain just exploded.

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, I’ve gotten catcalled in a puffy coat. And not in a cute one with somewhat of a silhouette, a giant white one that made me look like the Michelin Man.

        I already kind of thought Penelope Trunk’s articles were terrible, this just further cements that view.

        1. Jennifer*

          The worst ogle I ever got, I was in a full length trenchcoat from neck to feet. And I am not hot.

        2. Jennifer*

          Oh yeah, and Penelope Truck is …. I will politely say that I do not think anyone should take her advice about anything.

    3. CoffeeLover*

      I read the part about the laws not working and was like well that’s kind of true.. but then the “Harassment is an unfortunate part of climbing the ladder” part. WTF!? Yes, because only asshole men can successfully go up the ladder. This article is insulting to men and women alike.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The article does clearly state that it is an opinion not a news article.

      My take away is from the article is that the laws don’t work. And other countries are worse than ours.
      Other countries are worse than ours? I am not always sure about such statements.
      Some of the commentary I have read here seems to match with this writer’s opinion, though. Basically he is saying that what we are doing is not working that well. That is the way I read it.

      I do feel that the headline is morally and ethically dead wrong. Clearly that was chosen to get people upset so that they read the article and then buy more toothpaste or whatever CBS is promoting now.

      Dear News Media: We are tired of headlines that do not match the article. We are tired of your sensationalism/exaggeration/fear-mongering. You are discrediting yourselves. Remember the little boy who cried wolf. In this case you could have said “Women keep standing up for yourselves.” Instead you chose to tell them to live in fear. Nice job on that. (not) I hope no one talks to your mothers/daughters/sisters/wives the way you just spoke to the public.
      /rant

  152. HelpMeResign9*

    I am a temporary employee paid by Company A working at Company B. The Company A employee handbook says that when I accept an assignment, I am making the commitment to stay for the duration of the assignment (6 months, up in January). The handbook also says that my employment with Company A is at will. I have received a permanent job offer from another company.

    1. Do I have to stay at my temp job until January?
    2. Do I give notice to Company A (the temp company) or Company B (location I drive to and work at)?
    3. Do I need to give two weeks notice?

    1. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

      1. No, you don’t. They can’t force you to stay and you’d be silly to give up a permanent role for a job you know will be finishing.
      2. Give notice to Company A. Once they’ve acknowledged your resignation, advise your supervisor at Company B that you’ve resigned from Company A and your last day will be X.
      3. I would, unless there’s a pressing reason not to. It’s good form.

  153. Yogurt*

    How reliable are college professors’ advice for career preparation? I am studying a masters degree in which it can help prepare me get a certification in my field. I wanted to wait until I get into a good company that can provide funding assistance for me before I go pursue the certification. I ask a former professor about my plan and she said it is okay but it might be better to get the certification early. But getting a certification is not “very useful” if you lack work experience.

    1. Stephanie*

      I think it depends on how ensconced in academia the professor is (and that’s not always correlated with age). My undergrad department had a professor in the practice who worked in industry for a long time prior to teaching and was good for practical advice. Does your professor do any outside consulting work? Is he doing any joint projects with companies? Stuff like that would lend credence to career advice. Is there a local professional organization you can talk to about the certification?

      Do you need the certification to get a job? (As in, is it listed as a must in ads?) If not, I’d wait until it could be employer-sponsored.

      1. Yogurt*

        My professor is working in my major’s field. Small organizations in my field might not require a certificate for entry-level, but larger organizations will likely require it. I am currently working in a small organization, and I think that small organizations might be my “niche” since I currently do not have the network connections and soft skills for larger organizations. Most work organization in my field would say to get the certification as soon as possible. But the certification is expensive and I prefer to wait until I get some financial assistance.

        1. l*

          It depends on the field, but in my experience – especially if you’re quite early in your career – it’s okay to say, “I don’t have X certificate but it’s definitely something I’m interested in doing in the near future”, followed by an intelligent question or two about how the qualification and the job are connected.

  154. Luminescent Fish*

    Is there anyone in project management for scientific research who could tell me a little about it?
    What kinds of things would you suggest someone still doing their PhD could do to develop skills in that area?

    I know project management for research scientists can be quite a different beast than PM in other industries, but I think there are a few people here, like Cath, who might be able to offer their advice. It’s much appreciated!

  155. Waiting Patiently*

    Rant
    The last few posting from a couple of agencies here wants applicants to submit their material in duplicate via mail. I suspect they haven’t been keeping files correctly or maybe they want to pass along applicants’ packets to hiring managers faster, either way, I feel it’s an unnecessary burden for applicants. I’m not sure I can afford to job hunt if this is the new process–this is ridiculous. It has definitely deterred me from applying to a couple of listings. Just make the copy yourself. Why make us cover this expense of copying the material especially since we spend so much time and effort creating one packet to hear absolutely nothing back, no form email –nada, even if we’re lucky enough to get an interview. What a waste of time & now MY money. Maybe I’m shooting myself in the foot here but would there be any other reason why employers would require this?

    1. C Average*

      Ugh, that sucks for you.

      My guess: They’re getting a high enough volume of unwanted and inappropriate applications that they’re trying to a) install some barriers to application to reduce what they regard as spam applications; and b) save costs on doing due diligence for all applicants, good or otherwise.

      In your position, I’d start getting more selective, just out of regard for myself and my wallet.

  156. Chris*

    Application strategy question:

    Say you are applying to a company that allows only one resume on your profile. You feel qualified for several different positions (mechanical engie stuff, test engie stuff), but they only allow one resume to submit.

    What is the move around this?

  157. Ludo*

    I am really frustrated. My new hire just started and I want to rip my hair out. We use an internet based system for our customer and sales database. When we interviewed him, he assured us he was able to use basic technology. Due to limitations in this office we did not have a way of testing this unfortunately. And now I wish I had. I have had to explain basic things like “You need to double click to open programs” and “You need to press save before you close the site or it won’t save the order” and “if it says required field, it is a required field.” And I swear if I have to tell him he needs to check his IM and email regularly one more time I will snap. I’ve directly told him those two systems are how we relay time critical information and if he misses it we could have a massive service failure on our hands.

    He seems quite intelligent and had great references. He has received a week of training so far and the job is crazy easy. I am going into full on panic mode. I can’t keep answering questions for every order (I have an entire team to supervise) but his job is such that I cannot let his orders go out the way he is creating them.

    Unfortunately the entire team is new (new site in a new state) so none of his peers are really in a position to help but none of them are struggling like this.

    1. The Earl Marshal*

      If he doesn’t improve within 2 weeks you need to either put him on a PIP or let him go. Apart from that I’m not sure what else can be done here. He seems so behind with basic computer functions that if he doesn’t catch up quickly it will have an effect on clients and make you waste even more time.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Wow. It’s really hard to believe that someone out in the working world nowadays doesn’t have basic computer knowledge.

  158. The Earl Marshal*

    Over the past few months of job searching I have become really interested in compliance, business process improvement, and HR-oriented jobs. I feel really passionate about wanting to improve processes and I have an eye for detail. I am searching for entry level HR analyst/coordinator roles in my area but it is tough. I haven’t had too much work experience (got my bachelor’s in international relations and geography in 2011) so hopefully I can transition.

    Does anybody have any suggestions to transition to entry-level HR roles? (My experience has been primarily in sales, federal government administration and client relations, which included budget management, contract management, vendor relations, and some compliance). I also did a high-level internship in international trade/affairs at a consulate here in the US.

  159. Sarah S.*

    I was wondering if someone can give me advice on sending emails to HR recruiters. I’ve been getting conflicting advice from my peers and I’m a little confused. I submitted a resume online on Friday afternoon and received one of those automated “Thank you for applying…we’ll contact you if your resume fits the criteria…” emails. Then, I received another one from an actual recruiter in that company that basically said the same thing, but was a lot less formal. Do I reply back to that email and thank the recruiter for updating me? I’ve been so paranoid about the job searching process that I feel like it could be a test. What would you do? Thanks!

  160. High Noon*

    OK I have posted on this before and I need advise about my internship. I am almost done and got an evaluation. Part of that evaluation is to give the company I work for feedback and I am wondering how to handle it as I really didn’t like the internship and would like my program and the job to know but I want to pass the class. Any advise would be great.

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