open thread – January 23, 2015

by Alison Green on January 23, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,426 comments }

{ 1,426 comments… read them below }

  1. The IT Manager*

    A question for the crowd regarding degrees (bachelors) for IT workers – which IT careers need degrees and which do not?

    Based on some comments from Computer Guy Eli and another commenter this last month, I’ve been thinking about this. Nearly 20 years ago, I graduated from high school, went to college and earned a BS in computer science, and joined the Air Force as an officer where I managed and led people who did IT/communications work for most of my AF jobs. Another path never occurred to me and mine was not entirely straight since I entered college planning to minor in computer science with an engineering major and then let the military pick my jobs. Eighteen years of government IT experience later, I think that many IT jobs don’t require a degree and degrees simply don’t prep for many IT jobs, but I am removed from hiring and working with young programmers so maybe my information is old and outdated. (The coders I work lately with write in MUMPS or M.)

    My computer science degree was heavily focused on programming and math. Comp sci required Calc I, II, and II, and linear algebra. The classes were mostly all programming including Assembler, Pascal (comp sci 101), C and COBOL (in its last few years of being taught) but no FORTRAN – none of the FORTRAN classes offered for the engineers at the university counted towards comp sci credit. I took one class on networking taught by someone who was not a professor, but rather the person who ran the university’s network. I graduated prepared to be a programmer only. The education didn’t prep me for other type IT jobs; although, many classmates played around and taught themselves that stuff on their own. Of course now there are Information Technology degrees which I think focus more networking and security and less on programming. I wonder low much things have changed since I graduated.

    I still don’t think network admin is really taught in college; although, some IT degrees probably touch on it a bit for a class or two, but I don’t think enough to make a person marketable to be hired. I think people wanting to be network admins have to teach themselves enough to get an entry level job and then work their way up. I also think many people aspiring to be high-level programmers just need to teach themselves the programming language through playing around or a few specific classes and then hand-on experience. I suspect a computer science degree is still relevant for the lower level programming languages, math-heavy data analytics work, and research. But I wonder, am I off base here?

    TL;DR: How relevant in a bachelors degree for people hoping to be hired in IT? Can self-taught hobbyist still get in the door as entry-level network admins and programmers?

    1. Scott*

      I agree with you completely about experience substituting for computer science degrees, but, unfortunately, most companies have H.R. Departments that screen out applicants who don’t have degrees so going that route has to be nontraditional.

      I have a degree in a different field, but what has gotten me I.T. jobs is attending user groups and contributing to the Open Source community. People have seen my work there and usually they come to me to talk about work vs. me having to seek it out so I’ve been lucky in that regard. However, most of this work is going to be in web technologies whereas most established companies still use more traditional back-end systems but those are the companies that require degrees. Go figure.

      1. Nashira*

        Thank you for mentioning user groups! There’s a coders/developers group, a Python-specific group, and a hackerspace near me. I’m still working on getting my comp info systems degree, but had been thinking of attending some group meetings/having an excuse to join the hackerspace and Build Stuff, in order to start networking now. And also to be able to play with CNC machines and build stuff.

        I’m glad to hear similar groups been helpful for you! Once I’m a more skilled programmer, I’m borrowinf your other idea and will start looking into OpenSource stuff I can help with. Do you have any suggestions for what to look for, or where, if I’d like to help?

        Thank you for your time and the advice already shared!

        1. Nashira*

          Oh my word typos. Can I blame them on recovering from the flu just this once? I promise I stayed home til I stopped being infectious, like a good teamplayer would.

        2. Scott*

          Re Open Source, it really depends on what you’re into. There are *a lot* of open source programs.

          1. Nashira*

            Understood, I didn’t phrase that well. I shouldn’t go out in public with flubrain!

            Most of what I am familiar with are the big projects like Linux distros, LibreOffice, GIMP… But where I’d feel comfortable pitching in, at this point, would be smaller projects. This is probably a self-confidence issue more than anything… I’m just not entirely sure where to find those smaller groups, and was hoping there’s maybe a secret gathering spot. A person can dream, right?

            I’ll hit the Google machine and dig around. I’m mostly interested in using games, graphics programs, and other fun things, but there’s a broader sweep of things that I’d like to help develop, if that makes sense. The husband and I are building a Python-based “weathervane” off an odroid, for instance, with a screen to print weather info and an alarm for certain alerts from NOAA, and a link to an outdoor temperature sensor. It’s been interesting, and has demonstrated to me that my developing interests and usage patterns can be two separate things. Pretty much made me realize I’m more flexible than I thought.

    2. IT Kat*

      In my experience (as a self-taught IT hobbiest who eventually became full time IT), you need ether a degree or job experience. In my case I didn’t have relevant experience so I got an IT degree to get my foot in the door; it didn’t really give me any skills that I use on a daily basis, but it proved to employers I at least knew what an RJ45 cable was. On the other hand, most places hiring for IT jobs usually have “Bachelor’s degree or relevant experience” with the key being ‘relevant’, and I have a friend with zero college degrees but 10 years worth of networking jobs on his resume and a host of certifications, and who regularily gets contacted by recruiters and headhunter a and has no problems getting interviews. Just my 2 cents.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      My husband didn’t finish college and has an associate’s degree in computer science. He has managed to rise to the junior executive level based on his work history alone. He is just now working on getting certifications, mainly so that he can argue for a higher starting salary in his next position.

      He is an autodidact who was raised on computers (commodore 64 era) so this path worked for him. He does complain about graduates of 1-2 year technical programs in IT, that they don’t understand the fundamentals of the field because their training is so task oriented, and he values the computer science training he did get during his 3 years of school.

    4. Sally*

      Most companies who hire entry level programmers are just looking for some kind of “proof” of ability. A degree is one way to show this, but since programming is a rare occupation where it’s possible to see someone’s work product before hiring them (from contributing to open source, putting personal projects on github, etc), many employers don’t much care about your degree if you can code. And more and more people are learning through short programming courses (like The Iron Yard: theironyard.com) and getting great jobs with no degree at all. And with the slow pace of change in academic curriculum, people who did get a CS degree often lack most of the relevant skills to the current work force.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      When I got my degree, the Comp Sci BS degree like you got was all that was offered. Almost every job I see offered now requires a bachelors, although a few (non-programming) will indicate an associates or experience is enough. Often my co-workers have a masters, although I don’t generally see that as required in the job listings (yet). If you’re doing programming or database work, the degree is almost universally required.

      I’ve worked with a few self-taught people, and one of the advantages to the schooling is getting a common foundation and knowledge of some common basics. Wild ideas can be good for innovation, but they are also often very hard to maintain and overlook some well known solutions. I’ve heard of companies that have been burned by having such cryptic code that no-one else can figure it out: they now require everyone to have a degree. So it’s not just HR putting up road-blocks and making people check a box.

    6. Recent Grad*

      My brother has some experience with this: He’s worked in software development at a Very Big Company for about six years ago. He was hired as an intern while attending community college based on his self-taught skills and, long story short, dropped out of school and was hired full time. Eventually the lack of degree became a bigger and bigger deal for HR.

    7. EmilyG*

      My impression is that getting hired in IT without a degree is to some extent an artifact of the fact that CS was available as a major only relatively recently. My father worked in IT before retiring and I don’t think his school offered it; he studied econ. If college grads don’t have *relevant* education, there’s less of a reason to insist on a college degree in the first place. Still, this seems kind of silly when, as you say, computer science is rarely applicable to everyday issues, and I don’t see many people with degrees in computer engineering or networking or things along those lines. Just because you can get a degree in CS at most college these days doesn’t mean you know how to do anything.

    8. Aspiring IT Student*

      I’m really interested in the responses to this as I’m about to start the bachelor’s in IT degree program (networking emphasis) through WGU. I have some experience doing extremely basic tech support, but there are few local entry-level openings and tons of new CS grads coming out of the university and community college each year. My local community college offers an AA degree with a networking focus, but the CS degree through the university doesn’t even require a networking class to graduate. I think they might have one networking elective, if I remember correctly. That’s why I chose WGU over my brick-and-mortar options.

      I know I could work my butt off and get some certifications and try to move into the field, but I’m getting the bachelors now because I think it will pay off in the future. The job openings I’ve seen for networking almost always mention a bachelor’s as a requirement, or 2 – 4 years of experience in lieu of it. I don’t want to get 5 years in to this new career and find I need a degree to move up or move on to a better opportunity.

    9. CreationEdge*

      A BS isn’t needed for a coder or networking admit position. However, in my experience at least an AS in a relevant field is. This is for people newly entering the IT field.

      My community college had 2 IT degrees: networking and tech support, and programming. Getting an IT job in that area without one of those wasn’t likely.

      The networking program used CISCO material that supposedly prepared you for the CCNA cert. (Although, I feel as if it were only enough for the ICND1). So there are programs out there to prep you as a network administrator.

      My current University has a Software Engineering program, but they say that most graduates from that program don’t go on to code. They said most coders just start with a 2 year degree.

      Anyway, I don’t think hobbyists can get in the field without some proof that they’re experienced. Coders can have portfolios, but network admits can’t really do anything but get some certs. A Bachelor’s isn’t required, except as some companies dictate, but an Associate’s is. Just like most want an Associate’s as a minimum these days anyway.

    10. Goldie*

      I work in IT and have a degree, and have a son who works in IT, who didn’t want a degree, but I teamed up with a few of his teachers and convinced him to get one. I think these days, it is impossible to get your foot in the door without one, because you’re competing, not only with college grads who went to school in your country and have the advantage of having a network of former classmates, colleagues from the internships they’d had while in college etc, but also with people from all around the world who all also have college degrees. My son is very very good at what he does, and started programming when he was ten years old. He thought he didn’t need a degree in what he already knew how to do. But I honestly think he’d have never gotten hired if he didn’t have one. Also, he’ll never admit it, but I think he learned quite a bit in college at his CS classes, lab projects, ACM meetings (he was required to join up in order to maintain one of his scholarships) etc. While it is true that most IT jobs require “a CS degree or relevant experience”, it’s super hard for a new high school grad to obtain this relevant experience. I know quite a few people who got a programming job straight out of high school in the 80s and still have one now. But I’m not sure that this is still possible today.

    11. Anna*

      My husband doesn’t have a degree but has many industry certifications. He started as first line support at an ISP and progressed to 3rd line support (networking) before taking his Cisco certifications (CCNP, currently working toward CCIE) and then various other Linux certifications. He hasn’t found his lack of degree to be a hindrance, but has said that his industry certs has opened more doors than his experience alone would have.

      He moved from networking into sys admin work and now works with Linux mostly and has self taught PHP/Pearl/ Python as it helps in his role. He has said that experience is the most valued commodity in the UK but since we moved to Canada recently (Toronto) certifications are valued more but most of the time it’s a tick box for recruiters.

    12. INTP*

      In my experience as an IT and software recruiter, degrees were very important for developers and coders, less so for IT support and admin. Entry level candidates really needed a degree either way – IT jobs mostly required experience, but in lieu of that, only a degree would work, never just a certificate or self taught knowledge. I think there was a time long ago when programming skills were rare enough that you could teach yourself and get a job but I don’t really see anyone getting into the industry that way anymore. Developers who did that are still getting jobs with their experience but are also missing out on some companies that require degrees for “cultural fit” reasons (more so than other kinds of IT workers).

    13. Laurie*

      In this time within IT, the degree that I highly recommend is Information Security. If you see all of the areas that are high demand and will continue to be such is Information Security. I wished I had my CISSP, which is a great certification to have as well. Too many cyber attacks on businesses and governments, they need highly trained IT professionals to minimize the attacks or even prevent them.

      1. Nashira*

        I’m really interested into moving into info security, but most of what I’ve read recommends a basic programming-centric type bachelors degree, a couple years experience in IT, and one of the entry level certs like Security+, rather than a purpose-built info sec degree. Mostly to give you a better grounding in computing as a field, before launching you into the specialization… and because academia isn’t the best always at teaching good habits. (Looking at you, ‘using namespace std’ in C++. std::cout is such better style!)

        My current plan is to stick in my current non-IT position until I’m closer to done with my major/as long as my mental health will stand it, since my employer offers no-string tuition reimbursement, and work on networking to meet the infosec professionals around where I am. Then hopefully land myself a job that’ll provide the two years’ experience that the Security+ requirements ‘suggest’ one have.

        Unless someone already in the field has suggestions? I would very much like to hear if you do, please and thanks!

        1. The IT Manager*

          20 years ago there were no Info Security classes much less degrees. Now it is huge, but I agree that Info Security training is not worthwhile without the background in the basics. I think Info Security is basically network defense so you need to understand how the network works in order to know how to defend it.

          FYI: I have the background education; although, little hand-on experience. I found the Network+ and Security+ certifications fairly easy to pass with a little test prep. But that also makes me question the validity of those certs for proving someone is qualified.

          I think your curent plan is a good one.

          1. Nashira*

            My younger brother just did Network+ and had mentioned it was very easy. I thought perhaps that was because our dad was a sysadmin and fond of hands-on learning, but… hmm. I’m glad to hear they’re relatively easy, just to be able to mark off the ticky boxes, but it definitely reinforces the notion that one keeps working towards better certs in the early part of one’s career.

            Thank you for the feedback!

            1. The IT Manager*

              The problem with being vendor agnostic is that these tests have to focus on theory rather than implementation in order to remain agnostic since implementing the theory must be done on a vendor’s equipment. On the other hand, I think these tests are most like those you’d encounter in university.

              There are definately harder certs, but I think these may good a place to start as long as you back it up with other experience and education.

              1. Nashira*

                In terms of long term planning, I do have my eye on something more substantial, like the certified ethical hacker cert, or whatever similar level things are desired in a few years’ time. There’s a lot of background info I need to pick up, as well as experience to gain playing tiger team against my husband with the home network, or via Hack This Site.

                This reminds me that we need to buy a router of our own so I can hack the home network. I don’t think it would be good if I bricked the ISP’s router. Ahem.

          2. CreationEdge*

            My AAS required an info security class. The book was geared towards passing Security+ certification. However, it didn’t seem particularly difficult. I didn’t have to learn exactly how to prevent counter certain attacks. It was mostly learning some best practices and what kinds of common security risks there are. I was tempted to get A+ certification, but the exam question examples seemed too easy, also, so I questioned if it were worth my money.

            I’ve never seen a CompTIA cert on a job listing, but I have heard people say they help negotiate a higher salary if you’re already offered the job. I don’t know if that’s still true, as those who told me hadn’t been in the IT field anymore for quite some time.

            I’m very interested in Information Security/Assurance, but I haven’t heard of a program specifically for that outside of a Master’s program at my college. Unfortunately, there’s no way I can afford that.

    14. Ann Furthermore*

      I do IT work, in the field of ERP implementations. I work on the functional part, meaning figuring out how to set up and configure the systems and use them from the front end.

      Depending on what type of ERP work you do, a degree may or may not be necessary. I have a BS in Accounting, and most of the work I do is for financial applications. In my case, because my users are mostly accountants, being able to demonstrate that I know the difference between a debit and a credit buys me credibility with them.

      On the other hand, a former colleague worked with the applications used for inventory, and in the warehouse. He started is career as the lowest guy on the totem pole on the production floor at a manufacturing facility, worked his way up, and then moved into an IT function. For him, having a degree didn’t really matter one way or another. What was important was being able to provide guidance about how to use the ERP system most effectively for things like Receiving and Inventory Control.

      1. Aardvark*

        You bring up a good point about field-relevant skills counting for a lot for some IT areas. I’m a DBA and border on an analyst role. My graduate degree and prior experience is relevant to what we do as a company and I’m mostly self-taught and have taken courses here and there on the IT side of things. The business knowledge counts for a LOT.

        I don’t think my role is unique, in that some of the more data- and business-oriented roles may require or strongly benefit from degrees even though other roles do not. However, these degrees might not be in IT/CS.

    15. Student*

      Well, there is an entire job field you seem to be omitting that overlaps with network admin and programmer. It’s called a system administrator. That is what my husband does.

      I think we all know that “IT” covers a smorgasbord of very different occupations now. Colleges are very much behind the curve ball on all things IT. Your best bet at the college level for IT is still to get a comp sci degree and play around with the sub-field you care about. That’s often still true even if your college markets other degrees that appear better-suited, like telecommunications (covers some IT things, tends to be overly vocational), video game design (programs are usually crap, and video game places know it), etc. The computer science classes at least teach some solid skill set and critical thinking about computers, whereas the newer stuff tends to be heavy on pandering, vocational training, unqualified professors in poorly thought-out programs, and unpaid internships.

      On your question, no, you can’t get hired as a young person in IT without any college degree at all. Your resume will not make it to a hiring manager. There are plenty of people ahead of you who completed some form of college, and loads of foreigners who will work more cheaply than you can. If you try to go with a middle-of-the-pack approach, no college degree you had darn well better be launching your own start-up. And most people just aren’t good enough at their hobbies to pull that off. You can get hired in IT without a relevant degree if you’re already established in the industry somewhere and have good skills.

      Back to sysadmins. Sysadmins don’t spend most of their day programming. They are the odd-jobs people of IT. They do network administration – and it’s a common way to get experience in networks without prior experience. They manage servers, they make backups. They deal with computer security at all levels, and with system redundancy for failures. They manage supercomputers, clusters. They may do help-desk work. They direct business hardware and software choices for maintainability and stability. They may deal with VOIP phones, email systems, software licensing. They automate tasks, like reloading 500 computers or managing 30 different switches.

      They also support programmers. They might manage build systems for large software projects, or set up and maintain software repositories. They fix the programmer’s computers, help find build failures or troubleshoot system-level failures (software A won’t play well with hardware X) and sometimes debug code. Sometimes they write code, too.

      1. C Average*

        I’ve read this whole thread with great interest and was thinking about sys admins the whole time. My team sits adjacent to the sys admin team for our department, and I’ve gotten to know them well over the years and have learned a bit about the background of each team member. It’s pretty fascinating.

        My thought on the degree / no degree question is that it depends entirely on the hiring process.

        If you can get your resume in front of the hiring manager, and if the hiring manager knows his or her stuff and has some leeway in hiring, your experience and knowledge is what matters. As has been noted upthread, many established people in these fields don’t have degrees (or at least don’t have related degrees) because such degrees didn’t exist a generation or two ago. If a person without a degree is the hiring manager, he or she may be more open-minded toward non-degreed candidates. Such a person, if experienced, will also have the knowledge and confidence to trust his or her instincts with regard to hiring well based on experience rather than a degree.

        The brightest guy on our sys admin team has a handful of community college credits. The manager of the sys admin team has a math degree and is also extremely bright. The until-recently brightest guy on the team (he got promoted) had a liberal arts degree but had taught himself to code, program, etc., and he was exceptional. Given the outlook of the manager, the needs of the team, and its historical makeup, a person without a degree WOULD stand a chance, but probably only if he or she got a strong internal referral that got his or her resume in front of the team manager without HR involvement.

        HR, on the other hand, probably won’t be able to look at the resume of someone applying for this kind of job and assess whether their experience is adequate. I can understand why they make a degree the standard–it gives them something solid and consistent to look for in a candidate, a place to set the bar. Bureaucratically speaking, it makes sense. It just screens out a lot of really good talent.

        1. C Average*

          And one other thing I’ve seen in my experience: the best people in these jobs combine high intelligence and extensive tech knowledge with a certain professional courage, for lack of a better expression. They are working on important systems and know that failure and mistakes have consequences, of course, but they go about their work with a kind of tolerance for risk that isn’t for the timid.

          The guy I described with the handful of community college credits is the guy we go to when we need something invented to meet an immediate need, and he thrives on being That Guy. He dives fearlessly into complex systems and processes that few people understand, and he seems to genuinely enjoy it. If you have that temperament and outlook and the brains to back it up, you’ll succeed in these fields even without a degree; it’s just a matter of getting a foot in the right door.

    16. Anonymous Educator*

      I can share only my own experience. I was an English major and had no IT background. I did some volunteer work at my jobs at schools and become the IT department’s reliable “friend” who helped out. Then eventually that landed me a job in an actual IT department. Since then I’ve been working IT with no computer-related degree and no certifications. I’ve worked in a small for-profit organization and also in a couple of schools. I wouldn’t recommend that path to other people, but it can happen, as long as you’re not looking for large corporate jobs.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          It wasn’t really a volunteer gig… just me volunteering to help out with tech problems as they arose. So I’d be going about my work and a colleague in my department would have a computer problem (can’t print, this program keeps crashing, how do I do a mail merge?, etc.), and then I’d just go over and try to help instead of saying “Yeah, we should call the tech folks to fix that.” Tech departments at schools are usually severely understaffed, so they really appreciate all the help they can get.

          In terms of how I taught myself, it was a lot of trial and error and exploring. Problem-solving (particularly for everyday computer problems) is just applied logic with the basic scientific method of controlling for variables. Just as a simple example—a website isn’t loading. Okay… is the website not loading because the website itself is messed up or because your Internet connection isn’t working. Let’s see if it’s just you. Okay. It’s just you. Is it this web browser alone or all your web browser? And so on.

          If you have a curious and logical mind and aren’t afraid to break and fix things, you can pick this stuff up. I’d also recommend joining some kind of online help forum (Ubuntu Forums, WordPress community, Stack Overflow) to see how others are solving problems, and then try to help out yourself (others will definitely correct you if you give incomplete advice!).

  2. Sunflower*

    Has anyone ever left an at will employment job for a short contract? I’ve been seeing some great jobs that have 3-6 month contracts and I’m very unhappy at my job. It also coincides that right around when a 3 month contract would end, I would have an opportunity to move somewhere for a couple months and be able to work a bit but relax and travel as well.

    All of this makes me EXTREMELY nervous. I’m not so much nervous about paying my bills after the contract is up – I have a lot of waitressing experience so I’m confident I could find a job to pay the bills plus I have some savings but I’m extremely nervous about finding a job job in my field when I have no job. The job market is tough enough while I have a job so am I an idiot to even consider this? I have no desire to become a long-term freelancer/contract employee so is a bad idea?

    1. kristinyc*

      Yes! I did that after my very first job. I was in a pretty bad situation and really unhappy. I ended up taking a contract job (with “potential for hire”) and leaving my full-time job. In September 2008. At the time, I didn’t even realize how incredibly risky that was. I went into the contract job and treated it like it was a full-time. The ended up letting the other, less professional temp go, and then they hired me after a few months.

      As long as you can figure out things like health insurance and have some kind of financial cushion (I didn’t at the time, but I was 23 and my parents would have helped me), I’d say go for it! Life’s too short to be miserable in a job. Good luck!

    2. Scott*

      I’m leaving my job of 15 years in March to start a one-year contract gig BUT I’ve been saving up for it for awhile and have done contracting in the past so I know that it’s a feast-or-famine kind of thing. If you can live with the uncertainty and are good at budgeting and saving, you can do fine contracting and maybe even like it. I remember gaps of 2-6 months between contracts and I would just enjoy the time off (though at the 4-5 month period a little panic would set in).

      It just depends on your risk tolerance.

      Also keep in mind that many contracts lead to full time employment. That was how I ended up at the 15 year job. I started as a contractor, they liked my work, and when the contract was up they offered me a job and I took it. In addition, contracts frequently get extended (and occasionally get terminated early).

      Hope this is helpful.

      1. Scott*

        P.S. I should have also mentioned that the 2-3 months “off” isn’t fully “off”–plan to spend 10 hours or so on your weeks “off” looking for the next contract, bookkeeping, taking a class or two to keep up your skills, etc.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      My husband was staying in a soul sucking job because we’re moving in “only” 5 months. Then he got laid off and was forced to look for contract work. Only after that happened did we realize how INSANELY toxic his work environment was. He has only been searching for a contract for 2 weeks and has already had a half a dozen promising leads (of course this can be field dependent). So if the job is affecting your physical/mental health like his was….definitely consider it.

    4. A Non*

      I don’t have experience doing contract work, but I do have experience with soul-sucking jobs. I’d say go for it! A short term job followed by some travel sounds like a great way to reset and recharge yourself before looking for more long-term work. And you may find once you’re not in a toxic environment, you turn out to be way more confident in your skills and your ability to roll with the job market than you are right now. Toxic jobs will drain all your confidence and make you feel trapped, whether that’s actually true or not. (It’s usually not.)

      1. Csarndt*

        Ditto! Don’t let your soul get sucked if there is a path out! I quit a job without another lined up which let me actually recharge and refocus on my career path which actually lead to a job I actually like. We had savings, cut expenses, and my husband had a job, so it was a worry but not a panic when it took a few months to get a job.

  3. Gene*

    Just to start the food at work thread, today my breakfast from the microwave is eggs with blue cheese. The guy who gave me the cheese said the place smells like feet.

    :-)

    1. Barefoot Librarian*

      Yum. I’m a fan of feet-cheese (or any pungent cheeses for that matter). I’m going to have to try blue cheese in my scrambled eggs soon.

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      Today, the home ec. class had some leftover food from the class (I work in a uni in Education) so I bought (for pennies or quarters) a portion of leek & potato soup and chocolate and courgette cake. So much yum!
      I could get used to this…

      1. Elizabeth West*

        OMG I love leek and potato soup. I had some great stuff at Cafe in the Crypt in London (had some elsewhere that wasn’t as good). I don’t care if it might have come from a packet–it was delicious and I practically licked the bowl. The cheddar and pickle sandwich was divine as well. (No it wasn’t as cheap as Trip Advisor people said, but I ate every scrap!)

        aelizabethwest.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/lunch-at-cafe-in-the-crypt-not-cheap.jpg

    3. Nerdling*

      Oatmeal with cinnamon and brown sugar for breakfast, and we’re having pizza for lunch here after while.

      1. De Minimis*

        I just have my usual sandwich, but something sure smells good from across the hall. There’s a patient education program that meets a few mornings a week where they provide breakfast, I’m sure that’s what it is.

        There’s also a retirement reception this afternoon…hurray for cake!

        1. Nerdling*

          I’m guilty of smelling up the office with cinnamon and sugar pretty much every morning. :)

          Cake is fantastic!

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      It smells like the people in the basement had a very good breakfast this morning, but do they make enough for everyone? No! :(

      On the other hand, I helped make some bread last week, baked in the basement, and there was enough for all — since we had the smell of baking bread permeating the building. I’m not cruel like they are.

    6. Aims*

      A (super healthy) smoothie with banana, frozen raspberries and mango, a frozen wheatgrass puck, and water.
      And a (less healthy but filling) Tim Hortons bagel with cream cheese. Grabbing a coffee in a few minutes too.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I had a microwave-scrambled egg, a cup of Earl Grey, and a piece of sprouted wheat bread with butter and Marmite. This is my usual work breakfast. Sometimes I have oatmeal or if I don’t pack a lunchbox, a couple of granola bars and some almonds. But always the tea.

    8. INTP*

      I brought a salad and slice of “herbivore” pizza, but the cafe has Mac and cheese pizza on special today and it’s calling my name…

    9. HR Manager*

      Ha! Precisely why I don’t eat blue cheeses, because it smells like old, old, old gym socks left in a zipped up duffel bag through a hot humid summer of 100+ degrees, along with a pair of sneakers someone ran a marathon in. My kitties’ paws smell more appetizing.

    11. Artemesia*

      there must be a special hell for people who heat up blue cheese in the office microwave; karma is going to get you.

    12. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This just reminds me how happy I am to work in an office where people eat and love evvvvvverything. I think I asked four times if my sardines were offensive the other day, and I got, “That salad looks soooo good! Is that avocado?” They also understand when I stink up the office and get the sniffles after Sichuan takeout.

    13. The Other Dawn*

      Ever since i started the new job I don’t usually bring stuff that requires a microwave. Mainly because there’s always a line at lunchtime. Breakfast I’ll occasionally bring egg muffins (crustless quiche) and heat them up, although they’re good cold, too. I like them with sausage and herbed goat cheese. But mostly I bring Greek yogurt and mix in some dry roasted peanuts (I had weight loss surgery so this is usually my go-to for protein). It’s easy and I can just toss it in my bag in the morning.

  4. Eric*

    I’m going to be giving notice at my job next month–but I’m leaving to move across the country, and I don’t have a new job lined up. So I’m kind of at a loss as to how to frame it–“I’m quitting to abandon my life!” doesn’t seem very professional. What would you say in this situation?

      1. Eric*

        Well, I’ve lived in New York for over 15 years, and I’m ready to leave. I’m moving to Oregon for a better quality of life, slower pace, more opportunities to enjoy life.

        1. Sunflower*

          I definitely remember a thread about this not so long ago. Oregon and New York are diff worlds and the answer you just gave sounds totally normal and legit. I don’t think anyone is going to bat an eye at that reasoning. Congrats and good luck!

        2. Anna*

          I know other people who have made this exact move for those exact reasons. :) What part of the state are you heading to?

              1. C Average*

                Come visit! Set aside at least a day each for Powell’s Books, Forest Park, the Columbia River Gorge, and the Oregon coast. And if you want a tour of Portland’s most conspicuously schmancy corporate campus, ping me. :)

            2. Anna*

              Best place to move to! If you’re a geeky human who likes things like Firefly, Serenity, Doctor Who, I can hook you up. ;) Or even if you don’t. :)

            3. crookedfinger*

              Yes, come to Portland…we have beer…and food carts…and other awesome stuff…but maybe not jobs, so I’d suggest starting your search before you move!

        3. WorkingMom*

          “Well, I’ve lived in New York for over 15 years, and I’m ready to leave. I’m moving to Oregon for a better quality of life, slower pace, more opportunities to enjoy life.”

          I think you can say that, just like you did above!

    2. JC*

      I think it’s plenty professional to say that you’re quitting to move across the country, especially if you can give an explanation for why (to move closer to family, to live near a significant other, to live in a city/location I’ve always wanted to live in, to live somewhere more relaxed than here—these are all valid reasons).

    3. AVP*

      Someone did this at my company. They were pretty transparent and said, “I’m moving to LA to pursue a screenwriting job.” If you can just give notice and add a brief line about what you’re hoping to do there, or that it’s been a life dream to live in X, or to work in the main industry in that city, it’s totally understandable. Who knows, maybe someone at your company will have a contact in the new city for you.

    4. Gene*

      What’s wrong with the truth? “I’m leaving the job to move to BFE, I enjoyed the time I had here.” (assuming the place you are leaving warrants the second phrase; if not, leave it out.)

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yeah, I think you’re fine just telling the truth. Very few people wouldn’t understand the desire to get out of NYC for a slower pace– they may not empathize, but they get it and have likely heard it before.

      2. John*

        Agreed. I have done this at two junctures in my life and was amazed at the response. People were overjoyed for me and envious that I had the courage to do such a radical thing. (I didn’t find it courageous at all; I was just following my dreams, but I guess that speaks to how often people can’t/aren’t able to do that.)

        In fact, if you do it the right way, if you ultimately discover you want to move back, they may take you back.

    5. Scott*

      I would just say “I’ve enjoyed working here, but have decided to move to Oregon for personal reasons”. I did that a long time ago when I moved from New York to California and it worked out pretty well. My boss in New York told me that if I stayed two months so she could train someone new instead of two weeks she’d hook me up with a job in California. I trained my replacement and she got me the job.

      1. Jem*

        What an awesome deal! I desperately want to move to Idaho but I don’t think anyone at my current job in Chicago has any connections there :(.

        1. C Average*

          Where in Idaho? I grew up there, attended college there, and still have friends and family there.

          Idaho is WONDERFUL. It seems to always make the news for the wrong reasons, but it’s one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever been and the people are generally lovely.

          1. Jem*

            Boise. I lived there for several years as a kid and have always longed to go back. The rest of Idaho is amazing too, though.

            I hear mixed things about employment opportunities out there though. If I could be assured I wouldn’t starve to death when I got there, I’d probably pick up and go right now.

            1. C Average*

              What are you interested in doing? I lived in Boise for a bit and still have a little bit of a network there. It’s a fun, fun town. I really loved it. I still miss running in the foothills!

              1. Jem*

                I’m currently a program coordinator at a medical school. It looks like my top options would be working for BSU or the State of Idaho, but I would be open to any possibilities.

                1. C Average*

                  Lemme ponder this one. And feel free to reach out. I’m clover dot neiberg at g mail dot com. I can be an inconsistent correspondent, I’ll warn you, but I like to help people out when I can, and I love the idea of helping someone land in Idaho.

                2. Jem*

                  Aw, C Average, you’re such a sweetheart! I’m planning to take my husband to Boise in the near future (he’s an avid mountain biker trapped in Illinois and thus very keen on the idea of moving to Boise, but he hasn’t actually been there yet). I will reach out to you after we get back and I’m sure he’s not having any second thoughts.

      2. Lily*

        I’ve also had a multiple friends make the New York to Oregon move, and in a couple of cases being honest with their employers led to them being able to continue their old job remotely for a little while, which really with expenses while they got settled.

        1. ChristinaW*

          Are there enough jobs in Oregon? It’s the fastest growing state population-wise, because so many people are moving there.

          1. Melissa*

            I don’t think so. I read an article recently about the job market in Portland not really being able to sustain the large population growth, which is in large part made up of people who have heard how quirky and weird Portland is and want to move there because of that.

          2. Emily*

            I live in Portland and there really isn’t. MOST of the people I know who move here from other places get stuck in call centers or retail/restaurant jobs while taking in roommates to make ends meet. Plus the population growth means they are constantly chopping down our gorgeous scenery to build more and more and more condos.

    6. Eric*

      Great advice everyone. I guess I’m just overthinking this. What a shock. :)

      Now–do I give two months notice, or one? We’re undergoing our Systems Requirement Analysis in January, February, and March for our conversion to a new CRM and I’m pretty integral to the process, which is why I’m not leaving until after that’s done at least. Still, it feels weird to have such an important thing going on, knowing I’m leaving.

      1. SherryD*

        When I quit my job to move across the country with nothing new lined up, I gave 5 weeks notice. I think that if you like your employer, and you’re able to stay long enough to see a big project through to the end, that’s nice. But, in most jobs, there’s ALWAYS something coming up, so set a date to pull the plug and stick to it.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Think about the weather. I don’t know what you have in terms of stuff to move- but if you can avoid moving during winter that would probably be wise.

      3. C Average*

        You don’t want to come to Oregon in the winter or early spring anyway. Make your move in May or June, when the rainy season is over and the weather is at its best. Stay put, make money, and know that in Oregon right now it’s wet and grey and every enclosed space available is steamed up and smells like wet wool and dogs. Oregon in the spring takes some getting used to.

    7. Buggy Crispino*

      I might even frame it along the lines of – “I will be moving to Oregon soon and wanted to talk to you about this. I understand it will most likely necessitate resigning my postion here.” This could open up a dialog of how they want to transition your position. If they’re really crazy about you, they might offer telecommuting, or some temporary consulting work until they feel comfortable with your replacement. It could be a long shot, but if something like that helps your transition it might be worth considering.

        1. Buggy Crispino*

          :-) earlier in the year when people were talking about changing names and having fewer Steves and Alisons and Bobs, I wondered if I would be able to carry it off.

          1. Jazzy Red*

            My boy doggie was a stray, and a couple from work found him and took care of him. They named him Buggy Roadkill because he was covered with ticks & fleas, and was found on the side of a busy highway. I don’t know anyone else named Buggy…

    8. kristinyc*

      When I left a job in the midwest to move to NYC, I used “I’m fulfilling a life dream of living in NYC, and decided now is the time. I’ve been planning this for a year.” (Which was true). People were generally impressed with that.

      I think saying something along the lines of a change of pace, better quality of life, etc, would work. Those are all perfectly valid reasons to move. I think most people know that NYC is a very stressful/difficult place to live, even if they’ve never lived here.

    9. Jerry Vandesic*

      You might want to see if you could work part-time from your new remote location. Having a job, and income, would be good and your company might want to you to stay and keep your existing work going.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yeah, living on the beach in the rain and collecting cans for recycling will only last you so long.

          2. ThursdaysGeek*

            I’m sorry, that was supposed to be a joke, and wasn’t against you at all. I’m from Oregon, and even in the rain, the beach is a great place (and I’ve met people who’ve lived there for a summer). Making jokes about the rain is almost required of Oregonians.

              1. ThursdaysGeek*

                :) The beach, even in the rain, is a great place to sit and let that edge wash away.

                And now I’m sad that I’m on the desert side of Washington instead of on an Oregon beach. Southern Oregon beaches are sunny today, too.

      2. Goldie*

        I’ll second this comment, since I know a few people from the Portland area, and have heard a few things about the job market there – none of them good. :(

        1. Eric*

          I’ve given this a lot of thought and I’ve talked to a lot of people that live in Portland, and I can live for 6-8 months on the money I have saved. I also have professional contacts out there and am looking to work in an industry that hires quite a bit.

          At a certain point you just have to take a chance.

          1. C Average*

            Eric, I pulled a Hail Mary and moved to Portland in 2006, when the job market was far worse than it is now. I had fewer resources than you, but was fortunate enough to have friends in the area, including one with a couch he let me sleep on for nearly a month. It IS possible to get a job in Portland.

            I work for one of the area’s largest employers, and my husband works for the other. What kind of work are you interested in and what is your background?

            (One of my unofficial work goals is to help one person get a job at my company for every year I’ve been here. I’ve been here for seven years and have been directly or indirectly responsible for getting five friends and acquaintances hired here. All of them are rock stars, and three of them now outrank me! I’ve got catching up to do on many fronts.)

            1. Eric*

              Thanks for the info! It’s nice to see that it worked out for someone, gives me hope. :)

              I do non-profit fundraising, and there are open positions posted nearly every day. Now of course some of that is development work and all my experience is in membership programs.

    10. HR Manager*

      For personal reasons I have decided to move to the Left Coast (or whatever region you are moving to) and will be resigning from my position as of xx date. What can I do to make the transition for you and the team as easy as possible?

    11. Angora*

      Just saying you’re resigning because you are relocating. You do not have to go into any further detail.

      I did that when I moved to FL, gave my 3 week notice and left. I than did contract work while living in a cheap furnished apartment. Had no cable or internet access, so I went to Starbucks for internet access, etc. Surprised they didn’t run me out after a couple of hours.

      It’s scary, but temporary and contract work can help you survive until you find something. You may have to take a low salary job just to pay bills, which is what I did. The first couple of months I was there I did a job that taught me to do billing via access, etc. Just look at it as an adventure, limit your expenses and go. I tput everything in storage, and went back a few months later after I found a permanent job.

    12. Future Analyst*

      I moved from WI to TX in August 2010. I resigned from my two jobs well in advance (3-4 months), and told them “I’m moving to TX because the weather there is better, and the job market looks promising.” Everyone understood, and no-one thought (or acted) like I was throwing my life away. I think as long as you act confident, and not like you’re making excuses, or like you think you’re doing something crazy, people respect that you’re making a change and will leave it at that.

      Good luck! My husband and I lived in hotels for a month and ran up a bit of credit card debt (even though we had significant savings allocated towards the move), but by the next Jan, we both had jobs, a nice apt, and we’ve never looked back. :)

    13. Artemesia*

      You don’t have to give reasons in a resignation letter. It is sufficient to say you are giving your two week notice and your last day will be February 13 — or whatever. If you can’t stand to leave it like that you could say ‘I will be moving across the country.’ There is no need to give details in a resignation letter.

      1. C Average*

        We have so many brewfests here that some friends and I have joked about how it would make sense for someone to just build a permanent beer-and-donut-themed amusement park on the waterfront. We’ve dubbed it Homerland.

  5. Ali*

    I had my interview today! It went well I think. It was at a nonprofit organization, and I appreciated that the hiring manager didn’t ask really any trick questions or go with the strengths/weaknesses questions. We just talked about the job and the organization and she answered my questions. I really do best when interviews go like that and feel more like conversations.

    I will know next week if I got the job. It would mean a paycut, but considering how poorly things are going at my job right now, I would welcome the change if it meant tightening up.

    For the record, I did mention that my position was no longer a fit, but the hiring manager seemed to accept that answer and didn’t probe for extra details.

    I am still excited about the job and organization, so please send good thoughts my way!

    1. Mimmy*

      I too like conversational-style interviews….so much more natural. I think it’s still okay to ask certain questions as it relates to the job of course. I’ll keep all my fingers and toes crossed for you!

    3. C Average*

      *GOOD THOUGHTS*

      I really hope this works out for you! It’s amazing how much the energy in your posts changes when things are looking up; it would be amazing if you could find your way into a better environment!

    4. Barefoot Librarian*

      I’m glad it went well! I hope you get some good news soon. I’m glad you mentioned that you explained leaving your job as the job no longer being a good fit. I might steal that line for my interview. The truth is that I’m leaving in part because my whole institution is being poorly managed and my boss is crazy but you can’t actually SAY that in an interview. ;)

    12. Jean*

      Sending you good thoughts re today plus lots of respect and kudos for your enduring determination and persistence. I hope you have a restful weekend. You deserve it all.

    13. UnEmplaylist*

      Hi Ali. I start my new job at a nonprofit on Monday after a very long search. I hope this works out!

  6. C Average*

    Wow, am I really the first one here? Craziness.

    I’ve just finished my first draft of a 12,000-word history of the product line I’ve supported for the last seven years. It’s for my company’s archive. I believe it may be the best work I’ve ever done. It feels incredibly good to put my full energy into something that means so much to me.

    What’s the work achievement you’re proudest of?

    1. Mimmy*

      My proudest achievement was in 2003 when the senior data entry person had to go on medical leave for 3 months due to a serious injury, making me the de facto senior person. This entailed not just entering the data, but verifying others’ data entry for accuracy. I was praised in my year-end review for being able to handle that kind of pressure (!!!) and keeping errors from getting past our department, which was a Big Deal. Earlier that same year, I went on vacation for a week, and they noticed that data entry errors had skyrocketed during that time. Thus, my manager saw me as really valuable.

      Of course everything went to h-e-double-hockey-sticks after that year :(

      I promise that I’ve had good work achievements since then, LOL, it’s just that this is the one that’s always stood out to me, even though I’m in a completely different field now.

      1. C Average*

        Love this. There’s something so satisfying about knowing you’ve done your very best AND having other people recognize it, too.

    2. Scott*

      We were using the WORST system to approve changes. It involved filling out a form by hand then walking around with it to track down the people whose signatures were required. I wrote an automated system that handles the workflow and added an unasked-for feature that allows someone to delegate another person to act on their behalf if they’re out of the office. I programmed this 10 years ago and it’s still in use today with only minor tweaks.

      1. C Average*

        I love, this, too. A couple of our sys admin guys have written these kinds of systems and programs, and they seriously change lives. They don’t receive enough praise.

        *pauses to write thank-you email to sys admin team for general awesomeness*

    3. Lore*

      Great question! The generally coolest thing about my job is that I see the tangible fruits of my labors everywhere–I work in book publishing so every bookstore, or train car full of reading people, is an opportunity to see one of my projects set free into the world. But one particular project some years ago still holds the top spot. It would have been a very complicated project under the best of circumstances–tight timeline, major biography of prominent living person so every sentence needed a legal fine-toothed comb, nervous first-time author with highly unrealistic expectations about process that seemed impervious to explanation–but one of the very senior people meant to be driving the project was having some health issues that no one was willing to acknowledge, and (unbeknownst to me) the most senior leadership was fighting an ultimately losing battle against a merger and so didn’t step in. So I basically ended up running this very, very high-profile, nearly impossible book through to completion. I put in so many hours that my boss’s boss threw me a week of comp time when it was over (which never happens)–and then the merger happened. I had to reinterview for my job with several people…every one of whom said at some point, “Oh, you’re the one who handled *that* book.”

      2. Takver*

        What sort of unrealistic expectations did the author have, and what were the realities that were so hard to explain?

    4. Gwen*

      I wrote 40 content articles in 3 weeks (2 weeks of which I was still a PT employee) when we redesigned our website, filling up space where there was no real content before. I’m really proud of the articles themselves, especially with the speed in which they needed to be produced, and I think that it vastly improved the usefulness of our site & the user experience. (And it’s paid off in LOTS of compliments from partners AND increased site traffic, so yay!)

    5. Me again!*

      Right now I work in a specialty pharmacy and part of my work involves ensuring the paperwork and information is in place for our patients to receive their medications. I have a patient that I have been working on for a while, one that is rife with issues. Every time I get something straightened out, another thing falls apart. The patient is elderly and I’ve started taking the situation personally… to the point where I’ve gotten other teams involved in this case in order to get the medication sent. I am hopeful that I have finally gotten things resolved, at least to the point where the patient can receive care while still trying to hammer out the issues. I think about this patient all the time and will continue to do so until it’s resolved. I’m pretty proud of my ability to put the patient first.

      ** on a personal note: I think it’s horrible how the elderly are treated by our government! I work with a lot of elderly patients on fixed incomes and confusing medicare plans. These plans are confusing to me…and I work with them every day – imagine how it is for an elderly person! (Sorry…I know it’s off topic, but it hurts me to see so many elderly people struggling)

      1. kristinemc*

        As someone who deals with her grandmother’s healthcare/docs/prescriptions constantly, I just want to say thank you. It can be a nightmare.

      2. Whatever*

        I completely agree. It is why I am a social worker for older people. I love helping them navigate the best healthcare plan for them, and helping them find ways to save a little money for living in the process. It is worthwhile work to fight for them. Keep it up!

      3. Jazzy Red*

        Bless you, me again.

        I’m a recent retiree, and I’m disgusted with these over-complicated plans, rules, and regulations. When I first signed up with SS and Medicare, I declined prescription coverage because I don’t take any maintenance drugs, and now I have to pay a penalty for rx coverage for the rest of my life. I suppose they could have made all this harder to understand if they had tried just a little bit more.

      4. catsAreCool*

        I don’t know why it is that the government seems to specialize in writing things that look like English but make very little actual sense, even after reading them a few times.

    7. ThursdaysGeek*

      At LastJob, most geeks wanted to just program the requested changes and updates to the software and be done with it. I recognized that there needed to be a process for getting it to testing and production, getting all the documentation in place, and communicating with all the users and owners of connected software. So I took on that role for the software I supported, resulting in smooth implementations as well as needed upgrades. My manager retired and new ActingManager thought I wasn’t as much of a programmer as the others, and I ended up being laid off.

      I’m not sure the feeling is pride, but when my former customer hears my name he starts swearing. Because every implementation since I’ve left has been messed up, testing is shoddy, and he misses the complete work I did.

    8. Muriel Heslop*

      Testifying against a child molester who abused one of my students. He was her brother-in-law and I was the only person she told.

      2. louise*

        Oh, wow. Sitting on a jury that convicted a child molester is one of my proudest non-work moments. It was awful to hear the evidence, but so gratifying to know justice was served.

    9. Aunt Vixen*

      Earlier this week, a former colleague forwarded a bunch of us a message she’d received about a project she’d been the big head-honcho lead on. It basically went, “I’m a complete stranger about to go on an assignment related to the work you spent five years slaving over, and I’ve got your product and want to thank you for producing such a valuable resource. Also, is it possible to get a copy of the related translation project Vixen did almost single-handedly? I’ve got the original, but having the English version would also be really helpful.”

      This was work that once drove me to tears in three meetings on three successive work days from the thought that we were killing ourselves for something nobody but us would ever clap eyes on, so it was really, really, really good to hear that people (a) know it’s there and (b) find it useful.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      Finishing all the novels I’ve written, especially the last one, which I’m querying now. I sat on that one so long I thought it would never get done. And I’m pretty happy with the way it turned out.

    11. Cath in Canada*

      I wrote a progress report for a huge 3-year collaborative project between my academic department and a massive pharmaceutical company. I was given zero direction other than “you need to write the first annual progress report”, and I came up with something that both parties really liked. The pharma company actually made it their standard report template for all future collaborations.

    12. ActionableResearcher*

      I’ve been waiting for someone to ask this question on AAM.
      My greatest work achievement is one of the best and worst things I’ve ever done.
      Years and years ago, I co-created a statistical model which uses subjects’ specific geographic locations and the likelihood of default (along with other financial indicators) of the people who live near them, as a primary variable in determining their credit score. At the time it was innovative work and had never been done before, now it is commonplace in the credit industry. But yeah, the result is that your credit score is ultimately influenced by those of your neighbors.

      1. Ife*

        That is really cool work, and the mathematician in me would love to have worked on something like that. But on the other hand, it’s a little disheartening to know that my credit score is affected by where I live!

    13. Ife*

      In college, I was working at a disability services office that worked with students at my college. We were using an Access database to track information, but it was basically a glorified spreadsheet, and whenever you needed to find something, you had to check the database, the email, and a couple of paper binders. It was a mess for serving 100+ students.

      So I created a real database, with multiple tables and a nice user interface, and put all the relevant info into the database. And I generated reports. HUGE time saver! My boss loved it, and I learned a huge amount from it. It’s also how I began working in the wonderful world of IT and programming.

    14. justine*

      I was a copy editor when the Bush twins were in the White House.
      One night they were in a bar and had a run in with the cops.
      They weren’t charged with anything and we couldn’t say they were drinking, so my headline was:

      Bush twins
      on the rocks
      with cops

      I just always liked that headline.

  7. Barefoot Librarian*

    First comment! Woot!

    I’m leaving town tomorrow to drive to a on-site interview at a university in another state. Wish me luck and send me positive vibes during my presentation on Wednesday. I can’t predict much about this trip but I know my knees will be knocking together while presenting. :)

      1. Barefoot Librarian*

        Thanks, Carrie! I’m a Glaswegian girl myself so I especially appreciate your positive vibes.

        1. Carrie in Scotland*

          I’m on the other side of Scotland but hoping to move your way in a few month’s time :)

    2. Barefoot Librarian*

      And of course by the time I typed “first comment” there were half a dozen already posted! C’est la vie.

      1. Barefoot Librarian*

        I’ll save my shoeless time for after I get the job lol. I actually keep bunny slippers (and not just bunny slippers but Monty Python sharp-pointing-fangs rabbit slippers) under my desk for daily wear.

    6. Night Cheese*

      Good luck! If it’s an all day campus interview, make sure they give you a bottle of water.

      There are so many librarians here. Anyone want to have a librarian role call? *raises hand*

      1. Ragnelle*

        Another one* here! So awesome to run into other denizens of libraryland on AMA.

        *I work in a library. I have a master’s degree. It is not a library degree. Never sure what to call myself.

      2. EmilyG*

        Me too, but I do IT (see first thread). That’s mostly relevant in that I don’t actually deal directly with users much so it’s a different kind of work.

        Love your username!

      5. Vanishing Girl*

        another one here! specialized in archives, but also not currently using that part of my degree.

  8. Cadence Issues*

    So I had a skype interview last night with a recruiter for a position. It went really well and she wants to put me forward to her client. She said that I had accomplished a lot thus far in my career, presented the information well, showed poise and confidence, etc. The one piece of feedback she had was to watch my cadence – that it seemed as though my breathing was off so my voice would go up a little at the end of sentences making me some young. Has anyone had experience with this? Any recommendations for how to catch this when it is happening or to practice so it doesn’t happen?

    1. Scott*

      I call it the “question voice” where people raise their voice at the end of a sentence and make it sound like a question instead of a statement. It can sound like a lack of confidence. Why not record a short video of yourself and then watch it to see what they were talking about.

    2. Barefoot Librarian*

      When I’m nervous, I tend to be a bit breathless too. I know your pain. I also speak faster. I’ve found that just reminding myself to take deliberate pauses and slow breaths during my presentation or conversation helps me come across as more poised and less nervous. It’s a hard habit to break though.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I’ll try to find the article, but I think NPR had a piece a while back on ‘uptalk’ and coaching women, mostly, to stop doing it.

    4. Pooski*

      I had a Spanish teacher in high school who brought this up with students (including myself) all the time, and it infuriated me. It still infuriates me.

      I’m a strong believer that it is absolutely possible to speak with confidence, knowledge and poise, still have this (very common) affectation, and be taken completely seriously. I know what I’m talking about professionally, always have incredible data and research to back my positions up, and have had no problems at all in my line of work being seen as anything but competent and sometimes even authoritative despite my voice edging higher at the end of a sentence.

      I would categorize this “issue” as something that if the employer really cared that it was happening, it would raise some red flags about the organization. I think there is an undercurrent of sexism as this being brought up as a problem which really rubs me the wrong way.

      1. MaryMary*

        I disagree that the interviewer mentioning this is a red flag or sexist. I think it’s nice that she passed the feedback on to Cadence Issues, since it is something that’s difficult to recognize on your own.

        And I completely understand why the “uptalk” issue annoys you, but it does make a negative impression on people. Yes, it’s something more women, and young women, tend to do. However, to a listener it’s just as annoying as other verbal tics, like using filler words (um, uh,) or speaking too fast. If you’ve been able to leverage your other talents so that it’s not a determent to you, fantastic. But for a lot of other people, training themselves out of the habit will help them be a better communicator and stronger performer.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I completely agree with you. Up-talk grates on me; it doesn’t matter to me if a person is male or female (and yes, I’ve heard guys do it too), young or old, experienced or entry-level, they sound like they lack confidence. Everyone I know has a verbal tic, and everyone I know who presents regularly (myself included) works on correcting them, so I’m frankly surprised that someone would defend up-talk at all. I don’t see the recruiter’s feedback as sexist at all, mostly because I see nothing wrong with someone in the position to give feedback telling a young woman that she’s great and she should sound like she knows she’s great. Heck, I’m close to 40 years old and present all the time, and when a superior in my new job told me several times during a presentation that I should slow down (via IM), I did it, because she’s the listener and I’m not.

        2. Cadence Issue*

          I agree, I wasn’t offended at all. I’ve heard others corrected for it many times over and was more mortified that I’d slipped into the pattern. I would like to think it was a combination of nerves and being rusty on interviewing but regardless, I’m glad it was brought to my attention and want to make sure I knock it off!

      2. Muriel Heslop*

        My Spanish III teacher brought this up to people all the time! Actually, she mentioned a variety of verbal issues that I think she noticed because we were bringing them over into Spanish from English and it was more noticeable. I am really grateful that she pointed out to me that I spoke too rapidly to avoid running out of breath at the end of my sentences (I couldn’t breathe and translate at the same time.)

        As a language teacher (English), I felt it was part of my responsibility to help my students work on things like verbal filler, speaking too quickly, and yes, uptalk. It is a common affectation and while it might not be an accurate reflection of someone’s ability, it is definitely a factor in people’s perceptions of someone’s ability.

      3. Artemesia*

        I couldn’t disagree more. The hesitant/question intonation projects callowness and insecurity. We can hate that it does this, but it does, just like using a heavy dialect will project unprofessionalism to many. Women tend to be socialized to be subservient and non-assertive and this uptalk habit is part of that. Using youthful slang, uptalking, using non-standard dialect are all things that create a negative impression. Giving feedback in this case was a kindness.

  9. kristinyc*

    So, last week I asked about wearing suits to an interview (wore a dress/blazer, nailed it). The week before I asked about cover letters…

    This week – salary. The non-profit job is a step up from what I’ve been doing. I had a friend who has access to Guidestar look up the org, and she gave me a lot of great info about what people at the next level up (& beyond) are making. (And they were surprisingly way higher than I imagined!) I think I know the range I can ask for, but I’m still really nervous that it’s too high. They’re asking me for salary requirements by next week (I said I wanted to do some research). I asked if they could share the range, and they responded with tips on how to research salary (and that they’re waiting on final approval from HR on the range). This whole stage is so nerve-wracking! I’m really interested in the job, and would probably still take it for less than I’m going to ask for, but I just read Lean In, and in my recent salary research, I’m realizing I’ve been grossly underpaid for the last few years.

    Any suggestions for how to approach this? (Or recommendations for career books to read next? )

    1. Emme*

      Well it sounds like you’ve done your research and know what the going rate is- so just ask! The worst they can say is no, and I’m sure they will counter with something. If they gave you pointers on researching salary, they don’t sound like the type to revoke the offer because you started outside the high side. Just present what you’ve found and negotiate from there- no need to undersell yourself!

    2. kozinskey*

      It almost sounds like they’re waiting to see what their candidates will be asking. I would probably figure out what I thought was a reasonable range from internet sleuthing, and then ask for something towards the mid-high end of that depending on your experience.

    4. Development professional*

      Guidestar is free for anyone to use with a (free) login, so go ahead and have a look at the organization’s 990 tax records yourself. That’s where your friend got the salary info. Non-profits are only required to list the very top paid employees, so the numbers you’ll see there really are very likely much higher than what you’ll be paid unless you’re in one of the top 5-7 positions in the organization. (But maybe you are?)

      I would lean more heavily on your research about what similar job functions pay at non-profit organizations in your city. All of those variables matter: job function, non-profit sector (vs. for-profit) and city. Sometimes the type/mission of the non-profit will matter too. The job title itself is not as good an indicator of salary, as titles can vary VERY widely, especially depending on the size of the org.

      1. kristinyc*

        My best friend has premium access to Guidestar, and she did some sleuthing for me. (I tried looking, but it wasn’t giving me any actual numbers with a free account) The role I’m interviewing for is senior manager level (so, not listed in there, but directly reporting to an SVP. I’d be ~4 levels down from the CEO). The actual title is different, but I was told to compare it to a senior manager role in my research.

        I’m not sure that there are similar functions at other nonprofits (or even for-profits, honestly) – it’s a pretty specialized, rare field, and this is a brand new position here. It’s the national HQ of a VERY large and well-known nonprofit, so I’m leaning more toward looking at competitive salaries outside of non-profits for comparison. I think I know what I would like to ask for, and how much flexibility I have, but I’m just really nervous since it’s significantly higher than what I’m currently making.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          For future reference: The numbers you want are in the organization’s 990s (annual tax filing for nonprofits). They’re available with a free account if you register, but you do need to wade pretty far into the 990 to find the page that has the info.

        2. Emme*

          If its a very large and very well known nonprofit, have you looked them up on glassdoor? Even if there are no numbers listed for your position, maybe you can see the positions above you and the positions below you and compare to your outside research?

          1. kristinyc*

            That was the first place I looked. :)
            They had some info there, but most of it was for their other locations across the country (which had significantly lower salaries than HQ in NYC). But what I did find was in line with all of my other research.

            I know what I need to do, it’s just intimidating because this is a fairly significant step up for me.

  10. AVP*

    a quick vent for the phone-hating crowd! I have this intern right now who LOVES the phone and barely emails. I send him an email, he calls with a response, I tell him he needs to email me so I can keep track of what people are saying, he offers to call me later that day instead.

    I’m giving feedback and training it out of him…slowly…but ahhh I just wish he was trained on this and it was sunk in already. Any phone conversation that lasts more than 5 minutes for me has me tapping on my desk trying to come up with any excuse I can think of for why I need to hang up rightthissecond.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      When you hear it’s him, can you just say “Sorry, unless it’s an emergency I don’t have time to talk right now. Please put it in an email and I’ll look at it today/soon/eventually” (depending on the message you want to send)?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          The thing is, this shouldn’t be a slow process :) Which makes me think the issue might be that you haven’t been really clear and direct about what he needs to do differently? (Apologies if I’m wrong about that! It’s pretty common with managers though.) More on this below!

    2. Sunflower*

      I think maybe give him a blanket statement like ‘The phone isn’t really the best way to get in touch with me since I’m moving from one thing to another and email makes it easier to keep track of things. Unless it’s an emergency, email is always the quickest way to get in touch with me” If he offers to call just say ‘sorry, I would really appreciate it if you could email it to me instead so I can look at everything in front of me. thanks!’

      Nowadays I’m finding that people say that text or email is the quickest way to get in touch, not phone so this isn’t just you conditioning him for yourself but really the future of his career.

      1. fposte*

        Go farther–it’s not just that email is the quickest, it’s that that’s what you expect him to do, and you’re in charge of what he does. “I need you to stop phoning me and stick to emailing me. I know you’re a phone guy, but part of a job is communicating in the way that’s most effective for your supervisor and your organization; here, it’s email.”

        3. puddin*

          Noice.

          I would also pass along that a good guideline for business is to reply back with the requested info in the same way you were contacted. Call=Call back, Email=Email back, etc. It is not a failsafe but it applies fairly well, especially with people you are not familiar with.

          It applies in social settings as well:
          If your friend texted you ‘where you at’ and you called them back, that would be weird right?

        4. Windchime*

          Yes, perfect. No hinting that if he wants a quicker response, use email. Just come out and say, bluntly, that he needs to email instead of calling you. Period. As Alison says, this shouldn’t be a slow process. Even if he’s never used email before (doubtful!), he should be able to make the switch instantaneously.

      2. Karowen*

        If he offers to call just say ‘sorry, I would really appreciate it if you could email it to me instead so I can look at everything in front of me. thanks!’

        I’d go beyond this – If he offers to call, say “No. I need you to email.” Repeat ad nauseam. Maybe it’s because I’m at my wits end in my own office today, but asking him to email hasn’t worked in the past, there’s no reason to think it’ll work in the future. You have to say it point blank and forcefully.

        1. Artemesia*

          Great insight. When hinting or tact fails once, time to be blunt. The world is full of situations where the same thing is done over and over and over without effect.

    3. Sadsack*

      I would straight out ask him why he calls when you have asked him to respond via email. Maybe he is not confident in his writing skills and believes that he can better convey his response verbally, which means he definitely should be writing more for practice.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Have you told him directly, “When I send you an email, I need you to respond by email, rather than calling”? If you’ve done that and it’s still happening, it’s something to address as a “you’re not listening to clear instructions — what’s going on?” But I wonder if you haven’t actually been that direct about it, in an effort to be more gentle — if that’s the case, you might not be doing him any favors by not just being clear and straightforward about what you want.

      1. JustPickANameAlready*

        My old manager had major issues with this– according to her, everything had to be button-down polite and offered up as a request instead of a statement. I got pulled aside for coaching when she overheard me tell one of our new folks “Stop logging tickets as Low priority. According to our SLA, all tickets coming in from this client should be treated as Medium or higher.”

        According to her, I should have stopped to praise this individual’s work before segueing into something like “Will you please remember to log tickers as Medium or higher, OK?” …The kicker? This person’s work was notoriously inaccurate.

    5. MaryMary*

      I’m also wondering if his aversion to email is hiding another issue. Maybe he’s a terrible typist, doesn’t have strong written communication skills, or is not comfortable with your email system. If that’s the case, it’s in his best interest and yours to find that out and address it.

      1. JustPickANameAlready*

        +1

        Everyone I’ve ever worked with that espoused resistance to email were completely unable to type.

    6. HR Manager*

      Can I just say that I wish you wouldn’t train him out of it? Let him know it’s ok to email a response back sometimes, but that you often don’t have time for an in-person chat, but that he should mix it up a little on what the appropriate form of communication is.

      I see way more people who over-rely on email than the other way around these days. I wish more people would just get out of their seat and clarify with the person than the series of 10+ escalating emails back and forth (often copying increasing number of peeps) and that could have been resolved in a 15 minute in person conversation.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        That’s a good point. I think the thing here is to make it clear to him that it’s not about never calling, but about listening to your boss when she tells you what her communication preferences are!

        I also agree with others that it’s worth asking why he’s calling so much because maybe there is something going on with him and written communication that she doesn’t know yet.

    7. AVP*

      Thanks everyone! He did it again this morning when I was in a meeting, so I read this all through before I responded using a lot of your language. I think I was sugarcoating the issue up until now since he’s an intern (I know, not good for either of us.)

      For me, it’s a mixture of things: personally hating the phone, but also being in and out of a lot of meetings which means phone calls are hard to return promptly, and the fact that for this particular project I’m working with a bunch of freelancers and interns so if I’d prefer to have a clear email record of who’s agreed to do what by when (I’m keeping a chart, but again, running around all day means I can’t always update it instantly when I need to.)

      If he can’t get with it, Serious Conversation to come next week.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Remember– interns are there to learn. Think of yourself as a teacher; he is there to get advice and experience from you. Learning how to adjust to different work styles is part of the learning process.

        One thought… he might have trouble formulating his thoughts in writing. If that’s the case, then remind him that bullets and incomplete thoughts are fine (assuming they are) and you don’t need paragraphs, just pieces of information.

        I’m also totally intrigued that you have found the unicorn of interns. All the ones I know refuse to talk on the phone at all.

      2. Tara*

        As an intern who /hates/ email, could I suggest maybe asking him if there’s something about it that bothers him? Not to excuse him not following instructions, of course, but it might be an easily solved issue. I mentioned to my supervisor that email causes me some anxiety because I get “stuck” in an infinite loop of rereading and trying to make sure I have the right phrasing, checking for typos, thinking “how would she react to this” whereas speaking is very natural for me. She was really helpful and suggested imposing a one edit limit on emails I sent to her and reassured me she was really just looking for important details, not whether I’d used the right greeting!

    8. catsAreCool*

      I’ve noticed that some people do better with phones and some do better with e-mail. No idea why. I prefer e-mail, and I’ve found that some people are awful at communicating clearly by e-mail but are very clear when on the phone. I’m sure the reverse is true, and I know I feel like I can communicate more clearly by e-mail, where I have time to revise what I’ve written.

      I wonder if your intern is like this.

      Then again, he may be one of those people who simply prefers to talk. I know sometimes I’ve been on a 10 minute phone call that could have been covered in a short e-mail. Very irritating when you have a lot to do.

  11. Future Analyst*

    Anyone working as a database administrator? I have a bachelor’s in English, and am finishing up a certificate in database administration. I’m currently working in a field where I manage the indexing and categorizing of docs stored electronically, but want to move into a more DBA-specific field. Any ideas for where to start? Job titles, company types, etc.? Most jobs I see listed for DBA type work are “senior” and require 5+ years of experience. I’m all for reaching when applying, but there’s a huge difference between 0-6 months of experience and 5+ years. Thanks!

    1. Future Analyst*

      I should mention that the certificate I’ll be finishing in May is very Oracle heavy (but not officially through Oracle), though I’ve also worked with MySQL. Are there other databases I should investigate and learn to give myself a better shot at being hired?

      1. Scott*

        Two good places to start are on opposite ends of the spectrum. The Public Sector always needs DBAs, especially those who are familiar with Oracle/PeopleSoft or SQL Server. Startups need people familiar with mySQL. The Public Sector will pay a bit less, but you’ll have a normal work week without a lot of extra hours whereas startups will pay the most but you’ll work crazy insane hours.

        If you decide a startup is for you, rather than go the traditional route (apply for a job, wait, apply for another, etc.) I’d suggest joining a DBA or Oracle user group just to meet people.

        You might also want to learn a database heavy content management system, such as Drupal.

        In addition, make your own web site that shows off your database skills.

        1. Future Analyst*

          I’m currently in govt. so I’ve certainly seen some of the challenges that accompany the bureaucracy, but the hours are definitely better than a startup’s would be. I’ll also look into Drupal… thank you!

      2. ali*

        Yeah, the instant I got an Oracle certification, I was suddenly very in demand. Granted, this was 1999 so things were a lot different, but I think it still very much holds true. If you’ve got MySQL and Oracle, and make sure you can write SQL by hand (or at least parse what it’s doing), I think you’re golden. You might consider learning some MS Access, too, because while DBA’s hate it, it is widely used and can be really powerful.

        1. Future Analyst*

          Ah, fantastic. I’m in the process of learning the basics of Access, so this is great news. Thank you!

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I can only talk about Microsofts SQL server but I hope his will help:

      It very much depends on the job, organisation, and the set up you’re supporting. There’s a huge amount of variety in dba roles and systems, as a starting point you

      Brent Ozar and Kendra Little both have awesome blogs. Brent has a free guide called the accidental dba that I really recomend. Kendra is an indexing guru and they sell some very good training materials.

      Microsoft provide some very good tutorials and learning materials you can download a full version of SQL server as long as you keep your database under
      4Gb they also have very workable

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        Test databases called north wind and adventure works, that you can download to practice on.

        Things like SSIS packages, SQL agent jobs, T-SQL programming (mainly stored procedures), index tuning, backups (including the different types) and restoring databases are worth researching.

        If you’re kookig for some cheap learning materials a site called vtc . Com has loads of tutorials for different IT subjects and is $90 for three months access. The first few videos of each course are free.

    3. CAA*

      DBA is one of those roles that people tend to move into. Some of the stepping stone jobs I’ve seen are IT Support, DB Developer, Database Report Writer.

      To be an entry level DBA, you probably either need a small startup company that’s just barely realized this is a separate job from what their network/system admin does; or a very large company where they have several DBAs at a variety of levels, i.e. a large bank, insurance company, or some other data intensive industry.

  12. All About That Lace*

    OMG, am I the first comment! woohoo!

    I just took on a long term contract assignment with a religious (Catholic) organization and I am wondering if anyone has any tips or advice… I’m not Catholic which did come up around some of the work to be done, which was fine… they seem very down to earth but I’m wondering if there is anything I need to be careful of.. I’m concerned I could easily offend people. I’m really excited about the position but once it sunk in I was wondering if I would not have to be mindful about saying anything about some of my personal views on current events. I don’t usually run around at work waving a flag of my personal opinions but my friends are kind of making a few jokes and now I’m just considering, I’ll need to be pretty… quiet maybe…

    Probably over thinking it… Just wondering if anyone has any experience to share. Thanks!

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      I’d say you might be overthinking it a bit. The normal rules of the office still apply. It wouldn’t hurt to look up the things your company specifically promotes, so you know what the general vibe will be. It also wouldn’t hurt to know the big players by name. You know, the pope, your local bishop or things like that. I’m not Catholic but that might be helpful.

    3. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      Just wait it out a bit and get a feel of things. I used to volunteer at a Catholic non-profit and there were basically no topics that couldn’t be discussed in a pleasant manner, even if people disagreed.

      1. Bea W*

        I agree – watch and wait like any other new job where you don’t know the culture. As Andrea mentions, Catholics are very diverse in opinions and personal practice (and may even not agree with the Church on everything). Ask questions when you’re not sure of something or want to understand something better. Working for a religious funded org is mostly like working anywhere else in terms of day to day things. There will likely be other non-Catholics there, especially if you live in an area that is not majority Catholic. You’ll be fine! Don’t over think.

    4. Andrea*

      We’re not monkeys and we don’t live on Mars. Catholics tend to be like most other people–including all the diversity of people and opinions that there is in the world.

      Catholic organizations are mission-driven in addition to having all the normal day to day office politics. Understanding what the organization does and why it does so from a theological stance is helpful because so much is going to come back to first principles in making decisions and setting policy. For instance, Catholic social teaching is big on the “option for the poor” which boils down to that society should especially be concerned with those at the margins. When I worked for a Catholic refugee resettlement agency, that meant that small things such as sourcing paper or hiring decisions were made in light of the option for the poor, among other things. We were much more likely to buy from a small supplier than a big corporation if we knew workers were treated better, etc. at the small place.

      Asking why they do what they do and understanding that is helpful.

    5. some1*

      My (raised Catholic) aunt was a social worker at a Catholic organization that helps expectant mothers who are in need. She was asked at one point about her stance on abortion. She said it didn’t matter what her personal feelings were because their clients had already elected to carry their pregnancies to term. They still pressed her for her response, and after she said she was pro-choice she was froze out until she had no choice but to quit.

        1. the gold digger*

          That’s what I was going to say. Do not discuss abortion. Actually, I think that is advice that would apply at almost any workplace except perhaps NARAL and PP. Elizabeth is right – stay away from anything about reproduction.

          I have discovered that life goes more smoothly when hot-button issues and political issues are not discussed at work.

      2. with a tiny little mustache*

        I was raised Catholic, don’t really practice anymore.

        I suspect that the Catholics you find working at a Catholic organization might be a bit more thin-skinned than the Catholics you’d meet “in the wild”. You might want to not get into any debates about abortion, birth control, priests molesting children, or the blasphemous practice of worshipping the Virgin Mary. Just kidding about that last one, but you should be aware that Catholic != Christian. I was shocked to learn this, myself. But most of the touchier aspects of Fundamentalist Christianity (creationism, the Bible as literal fact, and so on) are not shared by most Catholics. Including most recent Popes. Speaking of which: asking what they think of our current Pope should be a pretty good way to get a read on your co-workers. Unlike many previous Popes, Pope Francis appears to possess many of the same views and attitudes possessed by modern Catholics. Which is a good thing, but I’m not sure I can express just how radical it is, in the experience of many, many, many Catholics, to actually *agree* with the Pope.

          1. with her hand in the box*

            Yeah, he really is awesome. God (literally) only knows how he got the gig. It’s strange, though: I don’t know how much non-Catholics are aware of this, but for decades – generations, even – it’s just been this accepted thing that most Catholics disagree with Rome and feel the Pope is a relic. And now we’ve got a cool Pope. Maybe it’s a miracle!

    6. MaryMary*

      I went to Catholic school for 13 years, and I currently work in a business whose owner is a devout Catholic, as are many employees. Personally, I am not a practicing Catholic. I’d be careful talking about politics, particularly social issues, but honestly I wouldn’t suggest bringing up those topics in most offices. Otherwise, I don’t think you need to walk around on eggshells.

      You may also want to double check your employment contract. Some Catholic organizations have added a morals clause requiring all employees, Catholic or not, to behaving in a manner consistent with Catholic teachings. These clauses are often inconsistently enforced, but in theory you could lose your job if you are unmarried and pregnant (or even if you’re living with your significant other and unmarried), use IVF to get pregnant, have an abortion, or are gay.

      1. Observer*

        Well, I just saw a case where a teacher got her job back in a morals clause case. There were two main issues, one of which was that the morals clause was unevenly enforced – and apparently most of the enforcement was of issues that only affect women. Ooops!

        1. Zillah*

          and apparently most of the enforcement was of issues that only affect women.

          Imagine my surprise. *rolls eyes*

        2. Evan Þ.*

          Am I confusing it with another case, or was the problem that it was enforced only against women even when men were equally involved in the situation? In the case I’m remembering, an (unmarried) man and (umarried) woman both admitted they’d been sexually involved, but only the woman was fired.

        3. asteramella*

          Part of that decision was also due to the fact that she didn’t minister to the students–but as a non-Catholic, she (and All About That Lace) would be prohibited from ministerial functions anyway.

    7. HR Manager*

      My first gut reaction is watch language. I’ve worked in more casual laid back environments, where it’s not unusual to hear some cussing (with similar minded folks – not in front of clients) and hearing HELL just tossed about every which way. While I don’t have a potty mouth, I appreciate I can truly vent in my companies and that includes no judgment when I need to drop the F bomb.

    8. Wonderlander*

      Actually, my husband is in a very similar situation – he is a database manager/development associate for a Revivalist church and he is agnostic. He took the job because the salary was decent and PTO was excellent. Like 3 weeks off at Christmas excellent. I think the culture of your organization will really determine how much of a challenge it will be for you. I can see it going both ways – the co-workers you work closely with could be very devout, for example praying several times a day, at all meals, and/or listening to Christian music/gospel during the work day; or they could be more interested in keeping their faith personal and it might not ever be an issue. My husband’s challenges at his office are extreme examples, but they might be helpful. He has mandatory service/sermons on Tuesdays for all staff (part church service, part staff meeting); he has co-workers who believe in Creationism and admonish Evolution out-loud, for all to hear; and the co-worker that shares his office is partly responsible for their “prayer line”. It’s a phone line where the number is given out at Sunday service and the church encourages people to call the number if they need or want someone to pray with. When the line rights, his co-worker stops what she is doing and prays with the caller on the other end. Because Revivalism is so far from my husband’s beliefs, this job has been tough for him. He plans to stay for a year and then start looking again (taking the advice of “it’s easier to find a job when you have a job” to heart!)

      Anyway what I’m saying is, it could go either way. I can see no one judging you for your personal beliefs, or I can see them noticing that you don’t fit quite snugly into their culture and separating themselves from you. My husband’s experience is a good example of having to be mindful of what you say and your attitude during the day. The culture of his office does not jive with his personal beliefs and sometimes, it’s hard for him to keep that in-check. Good luck!

    9. AnotherFed*

      Catholics are normal people, too. :) Just be professional and polite, and understand that as a religious organization, priorities are going to be set based on that (though not to the exclusion of all else!) and not profit.

      As for anything in particular to pay attention to, keep an eye on when lent is – many people will not eat meat on Fridays in lent and will often have given up something else. There are also a few days of fasting (Ash Wednesday and Good Friday). It’s not the time to bring in treats until you’re sure how seriously your coworkers are taking it. Some people don’t practice this anymore, and some were taught that if someone has taken the time to make you food, you eat it and say thank you even if you are fasting or abstaining, so it’s better to ask or check in advance.

    10. catsAreCool*

      Like any job, don’t say much about current events until you get a feel for other people’s views.

      Which reminds me, I didn’t know how political some of my co-workers are until we became friends on Facebook. Sadly, I didn’t really want to know.

  13. kozinskey*

    I NEED THIS THREAD SO BADLY TODAY.

    Garage space in our office is limited but also insanely cheap ($24/mo). We have a waitlist which takes a couple years to get off, so when I started a coworker offered to sublet me her spot since she carpools. That worked for a year or so. This morning she texted me to say she was using the spot today. When she came into the office she asked me what I ended up doing and I said I paid for parking elsewhere. She got really upset, asked what I wanted her to do, and said “I thought you knew your rights as a tenant. You can find your own spot from now on.” I went to go check on the waitlist for our office garage, and when I came back there was a $5 bill on my chair with a sticky note that said “5 days prorated.”

    She never has been my favorite person, but I’ve always tried to get along with her so we can both do our jobs. How do I keep her craziness from affecting my work when we’re expected to cooperate on projects? I was trying to be as neutral as possible this morning even though I was annoyed with her, but clearly that didn’t work. This is my first salaried position and I really don’t want to end up involved in ugly office politics. Do I need to mention this to our manager in some way? I don’t think I did anything wrong, and it’s not directly related to our work, but she’s acting unpredictably and that makes me nervous.

        1. kozinskey*

          The only thing I can think is that I must have been visibly annoyed at having to pay for parking when I’d already paid for parking this month. I wasn’t trying to be catty, but I don’t have a great poker face so it’s pretty likely that she could tell I was upset. The fact that I no longer have parking aside, I’m concerned about how to deal with her going forward if she’s so easily upset….

          1. Mimi*

            Maybe she did see the annoyance on your face, which in turn made her feel embarrassed/defensive…..but I still don’t get the $5 on your chair.

            1. fposte*

              I think it’s a dramatic and defensive gesture reimbursing kozinskey for Annoying’s use of her own parking space.

      2. C Average*

        Yeah, I’m having trouble following this, too. Colleague leases a much-coveted garage space she normally doesn’t use and sublets to you. Colleague needs to use it today as a one-time-only thing and you find another place to park. So far, so good, I think, yes?

        I am as confused as you are, but I would NOT involve the manager in a disagreement about parking. If relations continue to be strained between you and your colleague and it’s affecting your ability to work effectively, try to define the specific behavior that’s a problem and see if you can work with your colleague to address the specific issue. If not, only then would I involve the manager, and I’d keep it behavior-focused: “I need Hermione to keep me in the loop on her collaboration with Hagrid, as that affects my ability to cast the right spells.” No need to bring the whole parking spot back story into it.

    2. Elkay*

      I’m confused as to what the problem was, she used her space today so you parked elsewhere. Why are you suddenly not using her spot?

      1. kozinskey*

        She is no longer going to let me sublet her spot. So I’m going to have to find a place at a city garage, which are a lot pricier and further away.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I get that part, but I think where we’re confused is why she’s mad at you about this. Is she angry at you? You’re the one who was wronged. I’d feel more kindly toward her if she gave you 30 days’ notice and asked you to make other arrangements, which would have sucked, but sometimes them’s the breaks.

          Do you have a written sublet agreement with her?

          And no, don’t mention this to your manager. Why would you? This sounds like an arrangement between peers. I also think that what she did was annoying but it doesn’t make her “crazy”… is there any more info you can give us?

          1. kozinskey*

            Yeah, I don’t really understand why she’s upset with me either. I would have been annoyed but let it go if it were just the one day, but ending the sublet agreement over this seems like a total overreaction. She’s losing out on $24/mo now since I won’t be paying her for a spot she’s not using, so I don’t know what she gets out of doing this. As to the manager thing, I commented below, but mostly I’m worried that she brings drama wherever she goes and I could see her bringing this up to my manager and painting me in an unflattering way.

            1. ThursdaysGeek*

              So, she needed the spot one day and you cancelled the subletting altogether? If so, that might be why she was upset. And you too, since if you can’t be sure of the parking spot, it’s hard to justify a steady sublet.

              1. kozinskey*

                I didn’t cancel it. She did. The only time she’s asked for the spot before was on weekends, which is no big deal since I wouldn’t be using it anyway. This is the first time she’d said she needed it during the week, and she told me the morning of. I thought that was annoying but by no means something I’d cancel the entire agreement over.

          2. kozinskey*

            And no, there was no written agreement. That’s why her “your rights as a tenant” comment is so bizarre to me.

        2. Sadsack*

          Just find another spot and don’t get into this arrangement with her again if she offers. Then just act normal and friendly at work as if nothing has happened. Do not talk to your manager about this. It is not that big of a deal. Now you know that she is a bit of a jerk, lesson learned.

    3. Future Analyst*

      Wait, she’s mad that you paid to park somewhere else, even though she said she’d be using the spot?? I’m so confused.

    6. Malissa*

      So she got upset because you paid for your parking else where?
      I’d stop subleasing her spot and find my own parking arraignments. When asked about I’d just say, “I’ve got it handled. Thanks”

    7. The Cosmic Avenger*

      She was “offended” because you made her feel bad about reneging on your agreement with zero notice by pointing out (when she asked) that you were inconvenienced. There will always be passive-aggressive people who invent drama like this. Just ignore it, it’s not about you at all, it’s all about HER.

      But next time you enter into any sort of arrangement with her, either don’t, or email her laying out things like notice and other terms.

      BTW, “tenants” are given a lot more notice than that, and can’t evict people without the required notice.

      1. Lily*

        Yup. She probably already felt a little guilty (or maybe someone else told her it was crappy to take the space with no notice), and is one of those people who reacts to guilt/shame by getting super defensive .

        I had a boss like this for awhile. It was not fun.

        1. Amanda*

          +1 to this. I think it’s a spot-on reading. The $5 on your chair is what seals it for me. She’s trying to make you feel bad because she felt bad.

      2. Melissa*

        That is the only thing I can come up with, too – that this is really about her guilt and discomfort for giving you the short shrift. Either that, or she wanted the parking spot back permanently and invented this little drama so she would feel better about taking it back.

    8. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      Was this a trap?? Should you have refused when she said she wanted to park in the spot? I’m so confused!

    10. Colette*

      Wow.

      If you sublet her spot, she’s the one in the wrong. You’re paying her to use her spot – she can’t decide on the spur of the moment that she’s going to be using it.

      The only thing I’d do now is ask her whether she is ending your agreement so that you can make other arrangements – i.e. was this a one-day thing, or does she plan to keep using the spot?

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah. I am not getting what you did wrong here. Maybe your voice sounded a little off when you answered her and then you walked away so she thought you were mad at her?

      I am not sure why you would tell your manager unless she is doing something to your work or your work area. Seems to me the parking spot agreement was a private deal between two people.

      I think you could have benefited from more lead time on relinquishing the parking space but that did not happen. It could be that she knew what she did was wrong and she was feeling awkward insider herself.
      This might be one of those things that if you let it die down, it could just go away.

      1. kozinskey*

        Well, the reason talking to my manager crossed my mind is that we’re a pretty small department and she usually carpools with him. So that’s 2 hours a day where she has him as a captive audience, and I know they’ve made decisions about work projects & related issues in that time before. She also has a history of bringing up drama unnecessarily to me & to others, so I’m a little concerned that she’s going to somehow spin this to our boss in an way that will be unflattering to me.

        1. Natalie*

          It seems to me that if she is generally overly dramatic, than the boss is aware of this and either a) disregards most of what she says or b) is totally on board with her weird personality. In other words, if I were you I wouldn’t worry about it because if it’s a) you’ll be fine anyway, and if it’s b) you probably can’t do much about it anyway.

    12. OhNo*

      I’m seconding (thirding? whatever number we’re on) the general confusion here. When you told your coworker that you paid for parking elsewhere, do you think she took it as “I’m annoyed with you and and ending our arrangement, so I’ve already paid for consistent parking elsewhere going forward”? Is that what you meant?

      That’s the only thing I can imagine leading to this bizarre exchange. Seriously, I’m confused.

    13. Anna*

      I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. She is doing some projecting and probably felt weird about using a spot that you’ve actually paid her to use. She may have been feeling weird about sub-letting it for awhile and now she’s decided to use this as an escape hatch out of the agreement. Essentially you’ve paid her for parking you couldn’t use and then were forced to pay for another spot. She might feel like she’s done something wrong. I wouldn’t call that “unpredictable”; I’d chalk it up to someone feeling like they were in a weird spot and not handling it very well.

    15. fposte*

      I’m with people in thinking that this is about her guilt and not you doing anything wrong. I tend to apologize in such a situation anyway, with the goal of moving things forward more effectively. “I appreciate your letting me sublet, and I’m sorry things got confused.”

      Also, is the sublet arrangement allowable by your employer? It’s not by mine–we’d get our passes revoked. If that’s the case, you might throw that in there as a cover for her. “Apparently we shouldn’t have been doing that anyway, so it’s probably good we stopped before it caused any trouble for you–that really wouldn’t have been fair to you.”

      1. kozinskey*

        I like that line. We’re not technically supposed to be subletting, but people do it anyway and our HR people pretend they don’t know about it. If she brings it up I’ll just repeat your line to her. Killing with kindness and all.

    16. HR Manager*

      Is the garage spot a company space? Does the company administer the parking space allotment? If so, who the heck gave her the right to sublet company property?!

      1. HR Manager*

        And I just see that a similar reaction was posted above, but there’s something wrong with her arrangement and her reaction. Weird indeed.

      2. RoseTyler*

        This was my reaction too. If parking is “insanely cheap” compared to neighboring lots, the company is probably subsidizing the employees’ cost of parking. I’m really surprised her manager would be aware and ok with her profiting on that instead of use-it-or-lose-it giving her space to another employee.

    17. Karowen*

      Everyone else has said this, but I have to add mine: Your co-worker is so very weird. I’m trying to reason out her thought process in my head and am coming up completely blank. I wouldn’t be nervous about it or anything, and I definitely wouldn’t talk to your manager – I’d just chalk it up to a weird idiosyncrasy and move on.

      I would love, though, to hear her side of the story… I wonder if it would behoove you to say something like “I obviously offended you this morning, can you tell me what I did so I can avoid it?” Then maybe she’d try to explain it and realize how insane she was. Or maybe it’d bite you in the bum.

    18. Cupcake*

      If you paid for this month in advance, the spot is yours for the month. She may have ASKED you if she could have the spot for the day, but she should not simply take it. You have every right to be annoyed, and to even show your annoyance with your facial expression. Her leaving money on your chair is very passive/aggressive and pretty “high-school”. i.e. “If you are so hung up on the money, here’s $5 to make you happy.” Usually people behave that way when they know they are in the wrong, but want everyone else to think that they were wronged. She should have parked elsewhere, knowing that she already sold her space, and sucked it up.

  14. LuLu*

    We’re in the midst of performance appraisals here and this year they’re adding a new step. Anybody whose manager recommends them for the highest rating will have their evaluation read by all of our executive team who can reject those people they don’t feel deserve that highest rating. Is this common? I’ve managed staff at a few different non-profts and never felt this much micro-managing from “the powers that be.”

    1. Judy*

      I’m from the world of “forced rankings” so it would be refreshing to only have to justify the highest rating.

      As I understand it, the managers rank their people, then the directors get all the managers together and try to align a list of the entire department. Then the General Manager gets all the directors together and aligns the entire division. It’s unclear to me how many levels of forced rankings happen, but it’s at least 2 levels. I’ve been involved as a lead engineer in helping my manager rank our team.

      Once the rankings are done, the ratings are reviewed so that the correct % of each rating is present, and that the ratings are consistent so no 3 is ranked higher than a 4. (Highest level – 5 no more than 5%, 4’s no more than 10%, 3’s approximately 70%, 2’s at least 10%, 1’s at least 5%)

      1. LuLu*

        Ew.

        Okay, so this doesn’t seem so bad in comparison — I guess what irks me the most is the fact that the execs really have no idea who these people are and what kind of work they do (like the VP of Overseas Teapot Marketing has a say in the ranking of a Junior Chocolate Mixer). Also it feels like a bit of a privacy issue for so many people to have open access to the appraisals of people not in their department. I always felt like your appraisal was between you, your boss, maybe their boss, and HR. Maybe I’m just a privacy nut.

        1. Graciosa*

          Such a limited audience for performance reviews is not appropriate to an organization with a strong focus on developing employees – having the accomplishments of the very best employees highlighted to the senior executive team sounds like a good thing rather than a bad one. I also like the idea that the executive team cares about calibration and talent review – making sure that the right employees are recognized across the organization. These executives are responsible for ensuring the company is successful in the future, and talent development is critical.

          Unless there are some other weird dynamics going on here, I’m not seeing the negative –

          1. LuLu*

            I think the “weird dynamics” caveat is what I’m worried about. I’m recommending somebody for that high rating and I’m worried that a very pushy VP who has a personal grudge against me and my team will try to stop it. Our org is also terrible about employee privacy (multiple people have been given access to all of our payroll info on several occasions and one of our HR staff regularly blabs about problems various managers are having with their employees).

            I agree that consistency of ratings is important, I’m just doubtful that with the personalities involved this will be an effective way to ensure that. But it’s good to know it’s not a crazy, out-of-the-norm practice.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      At first I thought this was crazy, then I remembered how I once worked for a boss with “favorites.” His two favorite employees would receive all the raise funds every year. They didn’t accomplish anything the whole year, but they got the only raises.
      The system you are speaking of would fish out cases where the boss is giving the best score to his favorite employee, even though there is no support for the score.

    3. HR Manager*

      Alignment is not uncommon, though I haven’t seen that particular approach taken. I don’t like forced rankings, but I do like some alignment. My last review sessions (where alignment is not yet a concept) I had one dept were 90% of the peeps were exceeds or greatly exceeds (4 and 5 out of 5). Uhhh…I think not, buddy.

      1. Joey*

        You make it sound like a lot of people can’t exceed. It is very possible you know especially if the team as a whole exceeded.

        1. Pedantic*

          If everyone is exceeding, either the standards are too low, or everyone needs to be promoted to more challenging work where their talents can be better used by the company.

          1. Joey*

            Ah, so if the company is say Apple and a team is blowing it out of the park with something like Iwatch then you’re saying someone set the standards too low?

            Look, I’m all for not giving Johnny Average an above average rating simply because you think your team is better than everyone else’s. But when you’ve got data to show your team made bigger contributions that changes things.

    4. NBF*

      Where I work (big organization, 2nd largest employer in my state), the highest rating needs approval from a VP. It just goes to the one VP in charge of the area you’re in, not the whole executive team. I don’t know if they ever reject any of the ratings, but it may partly work to prevent managers from giving out many unwararented high ratings. I’ve gotten the highest rating twice and both times it was approved without a problem. One of those times I even received a card at my house from the VP thanking me for all my hard work.

  15. Snafu Warrior*

    So I’ve decided to apply to grad school, and I need to take the GRE. Twist: I haven’t taken any standardized tests on a computer before. Isn’t the new GRE a computer-based test? Will it be totally weird to take if I’m used to paper-pencil versions?

    (Grad school for an MA in speech pathology, by the way – so I should have a job afterward, unless something totally nutty happens. /obligatory grad school disclaimer)

    1. JC*

      I took the GREs a decade ago at this point, but back then I did have trouble adjusting to their computerized format when I was used to taking standardized tests on paper (and being able to cross out answer choices, etc). My suggestion is to practice the crap out of taking tests on a computer. I’m not sure how true this still is, but back when I took the GREs ETS offered a free computer-based practice test. It had a limited bank of questions so if you took it multiple times some of the questions would repeat, but I thought it was very valuable to just practice taking a test in the exact format. I also found it valuable to take practice tests that were computer-based from other companies (like Kaplan), even though their computer-based practice tests weren’t exactly the same format.

      I took the GREs twice, about 2 months apart. The first time I studied content with flashcards and all that jazz, and the second time I concentrated on practicing taking computerized tests. My verbal score went up over 100 points after practicing the second way.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      Yes, the general GRE is going to be computer-based, if you’re taking the test in the U.S. (overseas administrations are sometimes paper, depending on the country of administration, but even those are mostly computer-based now). The GRE was revised significantly in August 2011, with adaptive testing by section, not by question. The got rid of the antonym and analogies sections and reduced the emphasis on prior vocabulary knowledge. My understanding is that the quant section puts more emphasis now on data interpretation and using quant information effectively, rather than calculation.

      I’d do as much practice as you can with a version as close as possible to what you’re going to encounter to gain familiarity with the format, as well as figure out if there are areas where you might benefit from a formal gre prep course, targeted tutoring, or perhaps self-study.

      Good luck!

    3. Sofie*

      I think you’ll be okay. I took the GRE a year or two ago, and I wasn’t used to computer-based testing either. If memory serves, they give you scrap paper to scribble on, which I found helpful (I love taking notes and thinking with my pencil).

      Good luck!

    4. OhNo*

      Yes, the new GRE is a computer-based test. Yes, it will be weird if you are used to paper-and-pencil based tests. I took the new/revised GRE not long after it was changed, so I had to practice with all the old materials and then take the new test, which was… interesting.

      The good news is that there are a TON of resources to help you study for the GRE that will help you get used to the computer-based test and style of the GRE. I highly recommend buying or borrowing a GRE study guide that comes with some kind of software package, whether it’s practice questions or full-length practice tests. That will help a lot in getting used to the test.

      Good luck!

    5. Emme*

      I took the GRE in Jan 2014, and it is computer based. I didn’t find it troubling or difficult at all, and you can go back check your answer if you have time left at the end. When you sign up they give you free access to a practice exam or two- definitely take them at home. It will help with getting comfortable with the format.

      Also, just a general note on GREs- I hadn’t taken a standardized test in many many years, but found the GRE to be pretty simple. I think the recent changes made it much more applicable to real life- for example, selecting the right vocab word using the context of the sentence, rather than analogies (which I’ve always found confusing). Another great thing about the computer based test is that you get a preliminary score for everything but the essays, so you will know how you did when you walk out of the testing center.

    6. soitgoes*

      The GRE is scored very much like the SAT, or at least it was when I took them both. 800 points each for math and English/grammar, plus an essay. Since it’s on a computer, you’ll know right away how your scores were on those. The essay grade comes in a few weeks later. I scored pretty close to what I got on the SAT, but I was told that for a lot of humanities programs at not-very-competitive schools, getting a 400 on both sections is fine. Not sure how true that is, but I thought I’d put some numbers out there. Try taking some online free sample tests and see if you can get a 400 on both sections.

      1. CheeryO*

        The scoring changed with the switch to computerized testing. I believe the sections are out of 170 now, with 130(?) being the minimum for each.

    7. cv*

      Definitely download the practice software – running through a couple of complete computer-based tests really helped me a lot. You may be able to buy electronic practice tests from test-prep companies, too, but start with the free ones from ETS to get a sense of how you’re doing and what you need to focus on.

    8. EmilyG*

      It’s been a few years since I took it so take the details with a grain of salt… but I like the new computerized version better because it’s *shorter* compared to the pencil & paper version which I also took years and year back. What they do is start with some “seed” questions and if you get those all right, it assumes you would have gotten all the easy ones right and jumps right to giving you the hard ones. (If you get too many wrong, you only get a crack at the easy and medium questions and can’t get the highest scores.) So there’s more pressure to get the first few correct but my problem was always just getting bored and careless, so the computer version is way better for me. And you get your results right away!

    9. INTP*

      It should be much more intuitive than a paper test. If you are used to writing essays on a computer especially-so much easier than writing them on paper.

    10. nona*

      It’s computer-based but very similar to a test on paper. You click on bubbles instead of filling them in with a pencil, and you get to type the essays. It’s great (imo). You can also try some practice tests online to get comfortable.

    11. CheeryO*

      I took the new test in the fall of 2011, just after the switch. The only computerized test that I had taken before that was a CLEP test, and I did very little preparation for the GRE, so I found it a bit weird. But the scrap paper is very helpful, and I loved being able to type the essay. If you’re generally comfortable with computers, it shouldn’t be enough of an issue to affect your score, IMO.

    12. Emily*

      Other people have touched on this, I think, but you can download free practice software from ETS (it’s called POWERPREP II). It contains two practice tests and is almost exactly like the real GRE, including giving you a score estimate at the end.

    14. Artemesia*

      Of course practice on computer versions to get comfortable.

      I would focus practice review on math where we easily get rusty and it is easy to add a lot of points by being sure you have mastered basic algebra and geometry.

      Recognize that computerized tests are dynamic so if you quickly are faced with hard questions you struggle with it suggests you are doing well and have aced easier levels so don’t get disheartened if it feels like you are getting lots of challenges.

    15. fluffy*

      The public libraries here buy databases that include practice tests for all kinds of standardized test. I’d check with your library before I bought something.

    16. Hypnotist Collector*

      I’m 57, and I took the GRE last year with only a few weeks of intensive study. I used the free practice tests online. I did exactly as well as I did 25 years ago (98th percentile verbal, 51st math). It was stressful but fine. Just know that they have a really weird system of low grading on the essay, mostly designed to get you to pay $50 to have them re-grade it, which will result in you getting a letter saying they reviewed your grade and won’t change it (google it; lots of stories on the interwebs).
      Now, have I been able to figure out a way to go to graduate school in museum studies and have it make sense financially? Not yet.
      Good luck! You’ll do great.

    17. Is This Legal*

      I took in 2014 and I’m very positive GRE have the option for paper version. Check on their website.

  16. NewNeighborhood*

    Two weeks ago I started a great new job as a director. The position had previously been vacant for almost 2 years and the coordinator for my department has been here for 18 months, without a direct supervisor the entire time. He seems happy to have someone in the director position and I have been tasked with coming up with a strategic plan and adding some structure – he has been left to just go from one crisis to the next which isn’t reflective of him at all, just the circumstances. Question for all of you – have you ever had a new boss come in after being on your own for so long? What did they say or do correctly?

    I’m trying to be sensitive to him while moving things forward. So far I have openly acknowledged the situation with him and tried to keep the lines of communication open. Things are going well but I want to keep it that way long term. Thank you for any insight!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      The best question I had was “What do you need to do your job?” And then he stood on his head to get it. My requests were very modest- I did not ask him to remodel the world or anything. He did the same thing with my coworkers- he got them what they asked for.

      I will say his question did send a signal. It signaled a new era in our place and it also signaled that slackers probably will not be tolerated any more.

    2. sophiabrooks*

      I have been the coordinator in this situation, and I now have a WONDERFUL relationship with my director.

      The best thing that she did was sit down and talk to me about what were immediate needs (things that had been waiting for a director), what were things I saw as long term goals, what things I was doing on my own that I didn’t want to do on my own any more, and what things I did. We set up weekly meetings for updates, but in the beginning we met more than that and she ended up taking me to most of her meetings.

      It might be a little different because we are a department of 2 and I was in the job for 6 years, only 1 year on my own.

      1. A Non*

        I concur with this advice! I’ve been on my own for only three months (after the previous boss was fired), but that summarizes the things I think my new boss needs to know quite well.

        My new boss is trying to be very sensitive about not stepping on my toes, which is nice of him, but not actually necessary in this situation. Everything’s screwed up, there are only a couple things here that I take pride in. And even those, if he said “yeah, that’s not actually how that should be done”, my reaction would be “Glad we have someone who knows that – I was making this up as I went along! So how should it be?” Asking me what I’ve done in this job that I’m proud of would have identified any touchy areas pretty quickly, at least with me.

        (Things I am proud of: No-one’s run screaming into the night yet. I have good working relationships with all my coworkers. I have kept a majority of the balls in the air. The one system that I overhauled is working reliably. Things I am not proud of: Everything else.)

    3. ElinR*

      Read the book: the First 90 Days. It has a lot of good advice about how make an effective transition to a new leadership role.

  17. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    Listening to my coworker talk on the phone is painful. Her lack of phone etiquette is truly amazing for a woman who is not new to the workforce. If I have to listen to one more conversation that goes “Hello….This is, um, The Mad Facer….from Poorly Run Business? Uh. …. [long pause] Do you have anyone there who teaches This Subject? Are they there? Uh…..I just want to talk to them?” And on and on it goes.

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        Yep. None of us are good at cold calling (and exactly no one will be surprised to hear that we received no guidance or training or suggestions) but usually we can manage to sound semi professional and not insert “Uhhhh. ….” in every other sentence.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Pardon me because I’m about to go into full “hey you kids, get off the lawn” mode, but I notice this so much with young women, and it seems to be increasing. The uptalking, the loud sorority girl/valley girl kind of speech patterns (with apologies to sorority girls – I just don’t know how else to describe it). I wish colleges offered some finishing classes or something people entering the working work. Curriculum could include dressing professionally, speaking professionally, etc.

          AND GET OFF THE GODDAMNED LAWN.

          1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

            This woman is in her 50s so I don’t know if it’s generational!

            Uptalk doesn’t bother me a great deal, but the veneer of “I don’t know what I’m talking about” really does.

            1. Kelly L.*

              I’m consistently annoyed by people who call into my office with no seeming idea what they’re doing. On the one hand, they don’t work here, they haven’t received any training, I can’t expect them to sound like perfect professionals or anything. On the other hand, they simply cannot land the plane and tell me who they are and what they want. They called me, but it’s like pulling teeth to find out why, and oh, the mumbling. This is all ages.

              1. College Career Counselor*

                Maybe they were shocked to get a human being on the phone and expected to leave a voicemail? (But, I agree–talking on the phone effectively is becoming a lost art)

            2. super anon*

              I wonder if writing her a script to follow would be helpful for her (and everyone who has to do these cold calls really). My first ever job at 16 was as a telemarketer, and having the scripts really did help me, and as an added bonus I’m great at talking on the phone and doing cold calls from the 4 months I spent working there.

              Anyway, maybe someone who is good at these types of calls can write up a quick script if time allows.

            3. puddin*

              If many people are struggling with this new task, it might be worth the dreaded role play. Part of cold calling is simply rote or scripting but without sounding like you are reading or memorizing anything.

              The more practice everyone gets, the better everyone will be at it. If there is one or two folks that are very good at it, the rest of the team can copy phrasing and verbiage.

              Your role play or script should include intro self and company – elevator speech – purpose of call – who you calling for, at the minimum. It would also be good to practice handling objections with a collection of responses.

              ‘Hi, this is Puddin from Chocolate Teapots, we make tea a melty chocolatey mess. I am calling to introduce you to our culinary line. Who is the chef? [answer] May I talk to X?’

              Objection 1: chocolate teapots are a mess. ‘Yes, they are ha-ha. That is part of the fun, but you could earn extra income from the customized clean up cloths we package with our high end line.’

              yadda yadda yadda

          2. alison with one L*

            Katie, I totally agree. I am a recent grad from a technical school, and “finishing” is so horribly overlooked. Maybe it’s more a reflection of “the ratio” from my school (60%+ male), but I find that the young men have a harder problem with these areas than the young women. However, it may not manifest itself because these engineer men tend towards less “front facing” roles where they can sit alone with their computers.

            I also think that EVERYONE should have to have a job cold calling at some point in their life. I learned and grew so much in a role doing that for 6 months. My husband still refuses to call for a delivery pizza…

            1. Ebonarc*

              I experienced similar growth doing a job scheduling conference calls for a team of engineers with new customers. It wasn’t cold calling, but it was similar, and my phone and social skills improved by leaps and bounds.

          3. CreationEdge*

            I don’t think colleges need classes on this. There’s so many professional development clubs, groups, and services out there for free or small membership fees. Getting a degree already costs enough time and money, I wouldn’t want to force more of those costs on anyone.

        2. Tris Prior*

          Sounds like she’s really nervous. I can relate; I HATE talking on the phone (even when not sales-related) and if I do not have a script to follow, even if it’s one I make up in my head, for important calls my end of the conversation is full of “uh” and “um” and long pauses while I grope for something intelligent to say.

          You all have my sympathy; that sounds just HORRID.

          1. Lily*

            Yup. I am not a great expository speaker on the phone (I have less of a problem in a face-to-face conversation, for some reason), and it really helps me to have a script or a cheat sheet with bullet points of facts in front of me. Not having that pressure to store all the needed knowledge in my brain and access it on demand makes things *so* much better.

          2. aebhel*

            Same. I always write out a script. I’m still not anything approaching good at it, but at least I’m not atrocious.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          She needs a script or at least a list of talking points. It sounds like the effort to initiate a conversation is sooo hard that she loses her way- she stumbles to find what she should say next.

          I can still do that. My boss thinks I am great on the phone. Not kidding, once I dialed a number and forgot what I wanted. Maybe it is because of my introversion, but I usually have to take a minute to plan what I will say before calling. It’s not automatic for me. This could be what your coworker needs.

          1. alison with one L*

            +1 on using a script. The first few times will sound fairly rehearsed, but with time you fall into a natural rhythm and sound much more polished even when you go off script.

        4. the gold digger*

          Being told after I had started my new job last year instead of before that I would be expected to cold call was one of the (many) reasons that I was looking for another new job three weeks after I had started. I don’t know how much I would have to be paid to cold call, but it was a lot higher than what I was earning.

    2. Me again!*

      A woman I work with is the worst to listen to. It’s like the phone terrifies her. She even lunges at it when it starts ringing like it’s going to attack her. When she leaves a voicemail I can always imagine the face of the person who gets it as “Come on…get to the point!!!”

    3. Saleslady*

      Well, I’m not saying its the case here, but sometimes I use what I call “controlled unprofessionalism” on sales calls as a tactic. But often when we have training and listen to our calls, I will be mildly embarrassed that I giggle etc. on some of my calls when everyone else is super stern and professional, but it seems to work for me. Maybe she’s doing it on purpose?

    4. EG*

      Can you provide her with a sample script of what you use when making cold calls? Sounds like she’s uncomfortable knowing what to say, so giving her a little help might be appreciated by her.

    5. Anie*

      There’s a male co-worker of mine that is horrible on his phone calls. He stutters every other word, says ahhh (in a hesitant tone) over and over. The thing is, he’s our top sales guy! Makes us oodles of money. Makes no sense to me, because I always want to scream “Spit it out already!”

      Also, our lead reporter is almost identical on the phone. I’ve never come across so many stutterers.

      1. Saleslady*

        I find that people find it charming/makes you seem more human/trustworthy than if you are completely smooth talking

    6. Amber Rose*

      I have a coworker who made me cringe every time. My job is answering the phones but if I’m on another line or in a meeting he picks up and it was like:

      “Hello.”
      Pause
      “She’s not here.”
      Hangs up.

      Augh. I hate the phones too but that’s just not ok for a professional setting. What I did may help you. I casually commented one day how much I dislike phones and calling/answering them. Under the guise of a friendly chat I shared my coping strategies for being nervous on the phone. Stuff like practicing a script or even having it written out.

    7. Purr purr purr*

      I do that too because of nerves. I hate talking on the phone and I particularly hate cold calling people. I used to work in a call centre back when I was at uni. I wasn’t selling anything but rather setting up appointments for their gas boilers to be upgraded (a free service required by law in the UK) and the first ever phone call I made? I was called a c**t and it was like that for the entire duration of my employment. Anytime I have to make a call now, my heart pounds, I get sweaty and nervous and my intelligence leaves me. Etiquette is also the wrong word because it has nothing to do with a sense of decorum but rather a lack of skill on her part. I don’t see that there’s anything you can do either since you’re not a manager, other than putting in some headphones so you don’t have to listen.

  18. Sandy*

    Thanks everyone for your takes on the fathers taking parental leave question from last week. When I have an update (likely in a year or so), I’ll share it.

    I thought I would share an article (link to follow so I don’t get spam-screened) about one researcher’s take on the major differences between men and women vis-a-vis their parenting and work responsibilities.

    Interesting paragraph:

    “Also of interest was the fact that they (men) didn’t look to formal arrangements to find the time for their children but in effect did it by stealth, taking the time they needed to pick up children or attend soccer games. They assumed they had the right to do this, whereas women – perhaps because they still have the greatest burden of child care, Prof. Ladge suggests – feel they have to forge a formal contract with their employer. She also notes that there is a greater stigma at work about mothers than fathers – more fear they won’t be fully present – so men feel more comfortable informally finding ways to handle their family responsibilities.”

    Thoughts?

    2. AVP*

      I missed mast week’s conversation, but did you see the lovely piece in the Atlantic by the Supreme Court clerk who took a year off to stay home with his daughter? I’ll post the link below…

    4. Catherine*

      I find this to be VERY true where I work. I came back part time after my first child due to some medical issues, and I have stayed part time (now up to 75%) so that I have time to take care of most of the childcare duties. My husband frequently travels, and so I plan around that situation (ie I have to get two kids to two places in the morning so I can’t get in until 8:45 and I ideally need to leave at 3:45 to have time to do all the evening things). I have a fellow male co-worker who was in a similar situation (except it was his wife who traveled and he had a 45 min commute). So he came in at 9am and had to leave at 3:30 most days, he simply said he made up the hours after bedtime… So I guess I’m not as dedicated as he is because I like to sleep more than 5 hours and have to do housekeeping stuff. As far as I know he didn’t have any special arrangements with work. Other dads have strict policies during baseball season of leaving at 2:30 2 days a week for practice, etc… I feel their stuff is not negatively perceived whereas my schedule is. I frequently work more than my 30 hours when I’m busy (and am compensated for it), but I’m still not seen to be as committed as others.

    5. JC*

      Thank you for sharing, this is interesting. I wonder if another reason for why women ask permission for alternative arrangements vs. men just doing them without formal agreements have to do with larger gender differences with how men and women tend to handle situations in the workplace. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if women tend to seek formal permission before doing things at work in general, while men tend to forge ahead.

      -a female who is definitely a permission-seeker and rule-follower in life and at work

      1. Catherine*

        YES! Exactly.
        I’m looking at summer programs for my kids, and they are limited hours (less than daycare) so 8:30-3:30. I should be able to work my 6 hours a day still, but I will have to walk out of the door on time every day, and especially the days my husband is out. I’m fretting over it, and thinking ‘how do I approach the boss…’ when if I were a man, I would just do it and not ask. So, I think that is just what I will do! I mean I’m going to get to the time of having two kids riding the bus soon, and I will have the same constraint of needing to walk out on time regardless of what emergencies fly in.

  19. Sufferin' Succotash*

    Going anon here to vent:

    So, I’m part of a blog community and one of the posters there is a few years younger than I (mid 20’s) and having a hard time getting a job, trying to go from retail to admin. As someone who has transferred over from the same, I offered some advice, plus of course links to this blog (hence going anon).

    The person said that they didn’t know why getting an admin position was proving so difficult as they have a degree – that’s all pretty much admin anyhow.

    //headdesk

    I was like…erm no, it’s not.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Yes, because so many retailing staff people do mail merges, book trips, prep PPs, [insert thousand other things I have not mentioned].

      1. GOG11*

        I’ve worked in retail and admin (retail first, then admin/support). Neither of them are nearly as easy as everyone thinks they are and the skills required for each don’t overlap too much…

        2. Joey*

          The most difficult thing about most entry retail jobs is standing on your feet all day and having the willpower to work retail hours

          1. GOG11*

            Don’t forget keeping a straight face. I’ve seen customers do some pretty ridiculous/rude/terrible/unbelievable things and it can be a challenge if you’ve got an emotive face…

          3. Anx*

            I strongly disagree, but perhaps that’s because I’m young and my joints are in pretty great shape.

            I think the hardest part of retail is dealing with customers that take advantage of your customer service position to treat you as a captive audience, try to get a rise out of you, and otherwise put you in an awkward position where you have to be pleasant at them no matter how nervous they may make you.

            1. GOG11*

              I am young and my joints are not in good shape (I won’t lie, I had a pretty hard time standing all day) and I don’t agree. I got a lot of practice in behaving diplomatically and with defusing emotionally charged situations.

    3. Lily*

      Eek. Yeah, if that attitude is coming through in their cover letter/interviews, I think I know what the problem is.

    4. INTP*

      It’s on of my pet peeves when people say they can’t get an admin position because they’re overqualified due to their degree or higher level work experience. No, you’re underqualified due to your lack of admin experience. Why does everyone think they have an innate ability to be an admin with no training?

      1. AnotherHRPro*

        I hate it when people say they are “overqualified” for jobs in which they have no direct experience or training! Such a huge pet peeve. They seem to have determined some positions are beneath them for some crazy reason, and that means they are overqualified when in fact they are completely UNQUALIFIED!

        1. nona*

          Exactly!

          I am not “overqualified” for a job in retail, for example, when I have ~a degree~ and no retail experience.

      2. Anx*

        It’s annoying, but I think most people are just being mirrored what they’ve been told. How should someone get any admin experience? Everyone needs to start somewhere. Some of work you do as a student worker or club member is admin related. Some employers assume everyone that wants to do admin or support work will leave as soon as something better comes along.

        I suppose part of the problem is there is push to go to college and people have other reasons for wanting to go. I see very few universities offering minors or majors in administrative work, which is probably better than English or Communications or something more related to the work the company does.

  20. Calla*

    oh have I been waiting for this!

    I’ve complained about my job before because we use office software that is glitchy and out of sync and does not interact with the rest of the professional world, which makes my job as an admin 10 times harder than it needs to be. Although I’ve had some days where I want to quit immediately, I haven’t actually planned on leaving.

    BUT… the company is having financial issues. This is not something I knew when I was hired (about 7 months ago). There is a major financial benefit that is now on hold/not being provided for who knows how long (it would have amounted to an extra few thousand per year and only goes up the longer you’re there). Wednesday, we found out that it’s definitely serious and there are going to be layoffs next week. We don’t know how many.

    I feel that my particular position is safe, but should I start seriously searching now anyway? I have NEVER worked somewhere that had to stop perks/benefits or do layoffs.

    1. Anonercopter*

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this, Calla. The organization I work for has been on a pay freeze for about 5 years now and we have had a few rounds of layoffs since I’ve been here (~2.5 years). If the information about layoffs came from a credible source, I don’t think it would hurt to start looking discreetly. It sucks to work amid this kind of uncertainty.

      1. Calla*

        Yeah, the layoffs were an announcement from our boss, and are definitely happening next week (company-wide).

        I figured it was time to look but like I said, I’ve never been in the situation and didn’t know if I was overreacting!

        1. Judy*

          If you’re in the US, and at a company with 100 employees, they have to give you written notice 60 days in advance if a layoff is expected be more than 33% of employees or 500 employees, whichever is less. Also if they close a location that results in a loss of at least 50 jobs. It’s called a WARN notice.

          Yes, I’ve gotten them, although before research, I thought it was a layoff of 10%, which is what I’ve seen, and I think it was written in those letters. Time to at least understand your options.

          1. the gold digger*

            The catch is that they might lay off fewer than 33%. I had no notice when I was laid off, although the fact that the company had gone through five rounds of layoffs in the eight years since I had started should have been warning enough.

            It does not hurt to start looking.

        2. puddin*

          I am so sorry you are experiencing this curve ball at your new job. I hate to say it, but start looking… financial trouble does not go away with layoffs. Most lay offs I have lived through have 2-3 rounds. The first is the ‘known fat’ then the ‘hurts a little’ and finally the ‘oh crap’. Hopefully it does not get past phase 1, but it very well could. One reason for this is that employers do not want to lay off more people than necessary, so they tend to undershoot in the first phases.

          Better safe than sorry, brush off that hardly dusty resume and good luck!

          1. Calla*

            Yeah, that’s my fear. Even if I don’t get laid off (I feel pretty safe that I won’t, at least in the first round), what else is going to come as a result of their financial problems?

    2. Colette*

      Get your resume ready and gather any information you may want from work (not proprietary stuff, of course, but performance evaluations, personal stuff you have on your computer, etc.). You don’t have to apply for new jobs, but it’s good to be ready.

      The next thing to look out for (if you are in fact safe) is whether the layoffs are enough to keep the place solvent – i.e. is this a short-term crisis or not? If it’s short-term, then it will still be hard but I’d try to stay if I could – you haven’t been there that long, so it will be good to stick it out. If not, you need to start looking.

    3. 22dncr*

      Poster child for layoffs here – been laid off 13 times! The MINUTE I hear anything about $ problems I start looking. Remember – if you wait till it happens that means you and the other 30 they laid off with you are all searching at the same time. That makes the pool very full. Start looking.

      3. Anx*

        Wow that’s a lot! That sounds incredibly stressful.

        Do you think you got caught up in a cycle of ‘last in, first out?’

    4. Graciosa*

      Unfortunately, I’m with 22dncr on this one – financial difficulty is a Very Bad Sign. You need to 1) make sure you are prepared to leave work on short or no notice (Colette’s advice was good on this point), 2) know your financial situation and do what you can to ensure you’re in the best financial shape you can manage, and 3) start looking for another job, even if you survive this round of layoffs.

      Do not approach this as a situation which should cause anxiety or panic – neither of those are very helpful. What it should cause is action and preparation. As long as you understand your situation, have a plan for responding to likely problems, and work that plan, you’ll be fine. Try not to let worry distract you from taking steps to protect yourself.

      Good luck.

      1. Aunt Vixen*

        Yes: even if you survive the layoffs, the fact that people have been laid off means you can’t count on being safe. You need to have a long-term plan. Know where the lifeboats are, is what I’m saying.

        1. AnonAnalyst*

          Yes. When there were layoffs in my last company, they tried to keep as many jobs as possible at the expense of actually becoming financially solvent (they also cut salaries and benefits to try to save money). I admire the fact that they were trying to keep most of the employees on, but it didn’t really make me feel like I would be there for the long haul when they explicitly told those of us that remained “we don’t know if we cut deep enough in this round.”

          A lot of the employees that survived the layoff left the company within the next 1-2 years. However, they ended up doing a massive layoff about two years later in which most of the employees that survived the original layoff were let go. The last I heard the company is still struggling to find a sustainable business model in the changed economic climate and marketplace.

          So yeah, now if I hear the company isn’t doing well, I’m looking elsewhere.

    5. another IT manager*

      RUN. My first job out of college, I was told, “We used to offer direct deposit, and we’re hoping to do so again in the future.” The next month, the 401K match was decreased from 4% to 3%. Two months later, it was discontinued. That same month, I started getting collection calls for equipment that we’d bought and never paid for. Two weeks after I left, they asked a third of their staff to skip a paycheck (they were told to take a hike).

      They got bought out a year later.

    6. Natalie*

      There’s really no harm in looking. Places certainly do recover from financial circumstances that require layoffs, but many times they don’t. You won’t have lost anything if you take a better job somewhere else, and then 2 years later it turns out current company weathered the layoffs okay.

    8. AnotherHRPro*

      I am so sorry. You should totally start looking. A frozen benefit followed by layoffs is not a good sign. That means they are in significant financial distress that they were not able to (or just didn’t) forecast. A company should be able to determine their long term financial stability fairly well unless there is a huge disruption in the marketplace. If the leaders in your company are not able to see this coming, it does not bode well for their ability to manage their way out of this crisis.

    9. HR Manager*

      Yikes – yes, I’d start looking. To have to stop benefits is a big sign (unless it’s a traditional pension, at which I would say it’s quite common to stop those now). But with layoffs being announced soon, it’s certainly a side of things not in the right direction and better be safe than sorry. You can always not accept an offer if you find a job before you’re ready to go. Good luck!

    10. Observer*

      Start searching. And, when anyone asks you why, you say that the company has informed staff that there are serious financial issues.

  21. GOG11*

    Is it ever okay for an admin assistant to be “unavailable” to work on a project?

    In my role as an admin assistant, I strive to be prompt, accessible, and responsive. Most of my work allows me to do this because it can be worked on incrementally, so interruptions aren’t that big of a problem and I take care of things ASAP (and I think my coworkers have come to expect this from me).

    Another member of staff who was salaried (ie, wasn’t constrained by 8-5 hours if more time is needed on a project) and who largely worked on Big Projects has left our organization and their duties have been reassigned to other staff members. The Big Boss of my area reached out to me and asked me to take on one of these projects, and I am delighted!

    I need to learn some new software and this project has a very short turn around time – I’ll have less than 2 business days to complete it.

    Is there a way I can communicate that I need to have some time to work for a while? I’m really excited that I was trusted with this project, but after three weeks of trying to learn this software, I’m realizing that I’m having a REALLY hard time due to the piece meal nature of my normal work. I rarely work with the general public, so this would be something aimed at my coworkers.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      My workflow is similar– people just throw projects at me, and I’m expected to do them. However, I have not once had a problem saying things like ‘I’m really swamped with X right now, but I can get this to you by Y.’

      Also, if you have a direct manager, you could ask them to be your gatekeeper while you work on this project.

    2. AVP*

      There is definitely a way to do this, depending on your relationship with your direct manager – which must be good, since she gave you this project!

      When I was an admin, someone gave me a big writing project and I was having trouble making progress on it because the phone kept ringing and I kept getting pulled off onto different things. After a few days of this I pulled the person who had assigned the writing project aside and said something like, “I’ve been really excited to work on this, but I’m finding it hard to make any progress because, due to the rest of my job, I’ve had to work on it in 5-to-50 minute increments and as I’m sure you know, that’s not the ideal way to get a good piece of writing done. Is there anyway I can work on it uninterrupted in a conference room for 3 hours every afternoon for the next few days?” He totally understood that and let everyone know that I would be doing that with his approval, and they could either ask me to do things for them in the morning, or understand that it would take me awhile to get to it.

      2. Sadsack*

        I had the same experience when I was given a massive time-consuming project that took me away from my normal duties. my manager sent the rest of the department a message telling them that I would not be available to them for anything but the most urgent of needs due to my involvement with X project. That’s all it took.

        1. Sadsack*

          Something to think about: When the big project was over, I thought I’d pick up my former duties. However, the department became self-sufficient during my absence and my position was basically unnecessary, which coincided with our company having major lay-offs, resulting in my position being eliminated! So be careful about what tasks you give up, or be prepared to discuss with your manager early on how your position may be impacted in the long run.

          1. GOG11*

            I don’t think this will be an issue as I’ll only need an hour or two to learn the program (at least to learn to do this specific thing) and a few hours once the clock starts ticking on the project, so I think this is short term enough that it won’t cause major shifts/lasting change (yes it’s crunch time enough for me that I really do need those few hours of sustained focus when the time comes).

    3. Carrie in Scotland*

      I’m the same as ‘heyNonnyNonny’.

      I’ve had super urgent, huge pieces of work before that has superseded other things I was working on. I think the key is to be transparent – let the people know that you have this other piece of work and that after you’ve finished it/it calms down a bit you will come back to their work.
      Don’t ignore it and think that nobody will notice their projects haven’t been completed…

    4. Kelly L.*

      I would recommend going to your main boss and telling her that you’re doing WeirdProject and need to carve out some time to just do that. You may be able to work with her to designate some blocks of time that are for just that. IME, it will help if there’s also a different location you can retreat to when doing WeirdProject, so that you’re visibly “gone,” kind of like how if you leave for lunch, nobody bothers you during lunch, but if you stay, people try to give you work while you’re chewing. :D In similar situations in my own work, people have generally reacted pretty decently to my not being able to get to OtherStuff as quickly as usual, if the main boss had my back. (So if you, say, blocked out 11-12 every day to work on the software, and hid out in an empty office, and came back and did admin work at 12, most of it would wait just fine till then if well-communicated.)

      1. GOG11*

        This is a fantastic plan, but unfortunately the software is on my computer only and that computer is at my desk in the lobby of my building. I completely get what you’re saying. I wish I had a way to say “You can see me, but I’m not here.”

        1. Nerdling*

          Can you pop a sign up on your desk/put up an away message on instant messenger/let the phone go to voicemail or have it sent to someone else during that time once you’ve talked to your boss? That’s definitely an unfortunate physical setup!

          1. GOG11*

            I think I’ll still have to answer the phone, but I think the other stuff would address it effectively. I’m working on an email to my manager now….between interruptions :P

            I hadn’t thought of the IM thing!

    5. GOG11*

      Thank you, HeyNonnyNonny, AVP, and Carrie in Scotland!

      The project came directly from my boss’s boss, so I’m not sure direct manager/supervisor even knows I’m doing it…so I think I’ll start there (this is normal here…I have a supervisor that handles personnel stuff – vacation requests, for example – and everything else just comes from everyone without any single person coordinating or managing). Supervisor supervises remotely, so it’s hard for this person to know how things play out day to day or what I’ve got on my plate at any given time and, even so, things don’t flow through her (though, in theory, they’re supposed to go through her).

      TL; DR – The gatekeeper concept would work fabulously, but it doesn’t apply here. However, getting permission/backing to schedule something in and stick to it is what’s needed here, I think.

    6. HR Manager*

      Yes, absolutely but it should be positioned as you don’t have time now, but have time later, and the assigner can determine if that time frame works for them. As an admin, you need to prioritize your work just as much as anyone else, and if you truly have a more pressing priority, then it’s ok to ask to defer the new assignment.

      1. GOG11*

        Thank you! I’ll include the time details in my request so they’re not staring at some vaguely-defined wall of unavailability.

        The rest of the time, I go with the flow and just wait for quiet moments to present themselves and then take advantage of them, but with such a short window I really need to be intentional about carving out that time myself.

      2. GOG11*

        I just realized you meant in the moment. I wouldn’t have thought to frame it that way/include when I can work on it. Thank you :)

  22. Bio-Pharma*

    Alison, I noticed that many questions are asked that aren’t answered. Obviously some could just be sheer volume, but it could also be redundancy or whatever other criteria you use. Have you ever thought of (or heard of) something like a service that would enable someone to ask you questions that you would definitely answer? I believe that even though answers can be looked up on your search engine (or the entire internet), I think people would pay to have an expert address their specific question (even if that expert was copy/pasting from a previously-answered question). I’m not a business person by any means, but I just wanted to get your thoughts on it. I was brainstorming something like 1. pay you $x per question, 2. pay you $x/min and you would be honest with how long it took you, 3. pay $x/month or year for a certain amount of access (maybe that’s general coaching). Anyway, I know you’re super busy and I don’t mean would YOU be interested, but more about a general business plan, like if you hired staff or something. Do business-minded people have thoughts on this? Thanks!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Someone I know who’s great at marketing suggested this to me a while back, and it’s an interesting thought! If it was per question, I feel like I probably couldn’t charge enough to make it worth my while financially. Per month or per year is an interesting twist that I hadn’t thought about. My hesitation on that is around whether it changes the character of the site somehow — I mean, presumably readers wouldn’t see any difference since it’s just something that would be going on behind the scenes, but I think one thing people probably like about the site is that I’m not selling you a bunch of stuff. (Not that this would qualify as “a bunch of stuff” either though.) I’m interested to hear other people’s reactions to that!

      1. GOG11*

        I’ve asked two questions, if I recall correctly, and for the one that wasn’t answered behind the scenes, I just planned to ask it in the open thread since the readers are so wonderful and helpful.

        I have wondered about paid resume reviews, though. I am trying to redo mine and I’m having a really hard time using only achievements/outcomes (rather than job duties). I’m super frugal and tend to be a DIY sort of person, but that’s something I’d definitely pay for.

        1. Fawn*

          I second this for resume reviews. Alison, if you’re ever prepared to offer reviews again, I would absolutely pay.

      2. Scott*

        Maybe it could be a package deal. For $XX per year, you get a resume review, a review of X numbers of cover letters and X questions answered. Of course, it depends on your time, too.

      3. Bio-Pharma*

        Hmmm… I see how that could change the non-promoting vibe of the site. It kind of reminds me of going to karaoke, and you could sing next if you tipped well. Never liked that feeling… I wonder if you could say “I try to answer as many questions as I can, but if it’s urgent, you can go to my _business_ website. Also, you can ask your questions in the weekly open forum”

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yeah, I think it would have to be maybe a whole separate thing. (And to be clear, I’m just idly speculating here because Bio-Pharma asked about it, not making actual plans. No actual plans for this.)

          1. Bio-Pharma*

            I’m totally speculating too! It just came to me and I wanted to share. Nobody has mentioned anything like it, so it must not exist already… I was actually hoping a business-minded person would explain the economics of it, that it wouldn’t work because x, y, and z. Just curious.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              There are actually a few services where you can basically “dial an expert” on all kinds of topics, and the experts get paid by the minute for the call (I think). Those services also often are set up so that a particular expert can have a “call me!” feature on their site, which goes through that service so they get paid.

              It’s not my bag (phones! non-exorbitant pay rates!), but I thought it could be interesting to you!

              1. Bio-Pharma*

                But it wouldn’t be *YOU* (who I trust)!!! It’s like finding a new therapist… You never know if it’s going to be a good fit until you pay for a few sessions first. :P

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Ooooh, that’s so interesting! Their points about (a) the prices they’d want to charge to make it worth their while would be way more than anyone would pay and (b) that putting on a good show is more important to them than getting a fee for a particular question totally resonate with me.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I feel like when AAM answers questions for free, it’s of value to both parties. She gets material and ideas for her website (which she could also incorporate into future books or columns or other things), they get an answer. It seems like a win/win to me.

      If it were a pay service, I think she loses some of that editorial freedom them. Can she still reprint a question if someone paid her for an answer?

      It’s an interesting idea though.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        If the paying people worked with Alison off-line, not here, maybe that would make a difference?

        The one thing I see here is this starts to go into private coaching such as for job hunting or starting in a new job. It might appeal to some people who are going into a field they have never done before so they would subscribe for 6 months or a 12 month’s worth of advice to make sure they have help getting launched.

        Draw backs: Alison may not like the one-on-ones. Or this may not be a money maker. Or people may prefer the free version online with the comments that follow.

        Alison, do you get many people who want to talk to you in email only and do not want their question published? OR Do you get people whose situations really should not be publicly discussed but you are willing to help them anyway?

        1. Katie the Fed*

          This is true. And some people have very specific questions that only apply to them. It does sound more like job coaching or mentoring. I could definitely see a market for it!

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I do sometimes hear from people who don’t want their questions published; in most of those cases, that usually means I’m not able to answer them (because of limited time, not resentment at their request).

          I’m not really interested in doing private coaching, but if someone wanted to pay me an exorbitantly high fee to ensure that they got answers to all of their questions during a month or a year, I’d do that (privately or otherwise). Like a “jump to the head of the line” fee. But “exorbitantly high” is probably the key part there :)

          1. Katie the Fed*

            I have a lovely, but very bossypants kind of friend who used to say she wanted to set up a life coaching service called “I Know What’s Best for You.” She’d be very good at it :)

        3. Bio-Pharma*

          My “business idea” wasn’t about coaching, but more for someone who wasn’t necessarily job-hunting. If I had a question of “My boss just said this outrageous thing. What should I do?” Well Alison may not have time to answer it, or chooses not to for whatever reason. What if I could pay a fee to get her answer? (public or private, doesn’t matter)

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Thanks for raising this, by the way! I like the idea of other people figuring out how to monetize AAM so that I don’t have to! (Seriously. I suck at that.)

      2. Bio-Pharma*

        “Can she still reprint a question if someone paid her for an answer?” Yes. As I mentioned in the original post, I would feel great that she read my personal question, and had an answer for my specific situation (even if most of it was copy/paste).

  23. Katie the Fed*

    Ugh I need to vent.

    I got a new person last year via internal transfer. I didn’t approve it – it’s a long story but basically someone up high placed him on my team. I’m trying and he’s trying but to be completely honest – it’s not working out at all. He knows it, I know it, and we both know he needs to look elsewhere because he’s not going to get a good performance review at all. (I want to avoid going down the rabbit hole of government personnel practices – just please know I’m doing everything I can. The guy is genuinely trying but there’s an aptitude issue there that all the effort in the world just isn’t going to overcome).

    SO the other day he was reaching out to another internal organization and inquiring about a job, and CCed me. He attached his resume, which had the most overinflated, ridiculous, flat-out-lying-in-parts description for his current job. I told him that he needed to fix it because I couldn’t in good conscience agree with that description if anyone called me to check on it. He was shocked – SHOCKED – that I thought it was inappropriate for him to list the job description/expectations instead of what he’s actually done.

    He strongly believed he was being honest in listing what the job entailed. Um, buddy – yes that IS what we expect from you, but you’re not DOING any of those things. That’s why you’re looking for another job, remember?

    Sigh. I could just go along with him and tell anyone who calls “yeah, he’s a total rockstar, snap him up!” but I can’t do that ethically. I’m pretty sure that’s how we ended up with him.

    Oy.

    1. Rin*

      What?

      That’s literally all I can muster out of the trillions of words in my brain; I’m at a loss. How old/experienced is this person?

      1. Katie the Fed*

        He’s middle aged. I will say his resume looks pretty amazing from other jobs (which contradicts what anyone who has worked with him has to say). So I imagine it’s pretty inflated throughout.

        I used to think he was just inept, but now I’m starting to think it’s more intentional. You can’t POSSIBLY think a resume is to list a job description instead of your actual role.

        2. Jubilance*

          Sadly I think most people think they should put the job description on their resume, not what they’ve actually accomplished. I don’t think I knew that part until I went to resume writing class at my first employer. Somehow it’s not getting taught, and I’m sure if he’s middle aged he was probably never taught how to write a resume at all. Are there resume writing resources/classes you can refer him to get his resume together?

        3. MaryMary*

          Intentional, or delusional? Does he know he’s a low performer, or does he think he’s at least average (or maybe even great)?

          1. Katie the Fed*

            This is a very good question! He seems to believe that he’s a good performer, despite our near-weekly conversations that he’s not. So… yeah. There’s that.

            My gin consumption has risen considerably of late.

        4. anon for this*

          I used to have a co-worker who sort of reminds me of this. He was good at talking and making it sound like he knew things, but he didn’t. He would advise customers to do things that were not good ideas. I remember once answering the same question for him 3 times in 2 days!

    2. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      And yet, I have a feeling that if he WAS a total rockstar and went above and beyond his actual job description, he wouldn’t leave THAT off his resume.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        True, but that’s so far outside the realm of likelihood I don’t think we’ll ever find out :)

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Well, bravo to you for not gilding the turd and trying to pass it off to someone else as a gold nugget.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Oh, I have a pretty good idea…when I was supervising people I had someone who apparently was a great liaison and received raves from their supervisor, but when I tried to train them to do the data entry that we stated up front was clearly required for the position this person literally could not point and click. We all get company-issued computers, so I don’t know how they were even using company email….if they even were.

          And that is a big part of why I moved to a more technical role with no supervisory duties.

    4. esra*

      That is definitely a fundamental misunderstanding about what a resume is supposed to be. I mean, it’s not selling the job

    5. E.R*

      I’m having a somewhat similiar dilemma where a former subordinate, who was ultimately let go for performance as well as attitude, is inflating his accomplishments (they are quantitative and he is easily inflating what he did by 3x) on his resume and Linkedin. When colleagues at other companies ask me about it (he is looking for a job), I look a bit confused and say “His accomplishment for the year was x” and leave it at that. I’d love to tell him to change his resume and Linkedin but he no longer works for me so I’m pretty sure its not worth the effort.
      In your case, Katie the Fed, I’d hold your own on this and know you are doing the right thing. He may as well learn this now.

    7. HR Manager*

      All you can do is hope his interviewers read through places like this, recognize the job hopping, and become suspicious enough to dig deeper and learn that he’s full of horse crap.

    9. AnotherFed*

      Time for the PIP and negative pay adjustment. I know, easier said than done, but blatant lying is one of the things I can’t stand, especially if it’s position of public trust/security clearance.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Neither of those are options here, unfortunately, because it’s not a performance issue. It’s a conduct issue but it’s only something that I happened to see, not something he actually did to me, if that makes sense. But I did tell him pretty clearly that he’s lost my trust. I have enough other issues to work with him on though :)

  24. Sunflower*

    How do you guys determine what your biggest strength is? There’s a ton of advice on how to answer what your biggest weakness is but I’m not sure how to determine what I’m most good at. I feel like I’m good at a lot of parts of my job but it’s hard to pick out what the one thing is that I really excel at. How do I chose and what kind of reasoning do you back it up with(in an interview setting)

    1. TNTT*

      Are there certain projects that, when you are assigned them, you do a mental fist pump? “YES! I love these projects, let’s go!”

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Is there anyone you work with who you know and trust? I find other people often are better judges of my strengths and weaknesses than I am :) My own assessments get clouded with wishful thinking.

    3. GOG11*

      At some point, from somewhere, someone (here? I think it was Alison?), said something to the effect of:

      “Look at what you can’t NOT do. What is it in your job that you can’t help doing?”

      For me, it’s taking process manuals, instructions/direction sheets (that are ONE PARAGRAPH ALL CAPS), etc., and redoing them with the reader and the reader’s goals in mind. When I find something intended to be helpful that is convoluted, I can’t help but revamp it because it drives me nuts.

      Is there something like that that you find yourself doing? If so, is that thing something you excel at, as well?

      Though maybe that’s how you find what you’re most passionate about…but sometimes those things overlap.

      2. Shell*

        I think this is the key. It might not be what gets you excited or mentally fistpump, but you do it because it’s needed (bonus points: anticipate a need TPTB didn’t know existed) and you do a good job at it.

        For my job I set up a template database for form letters that cut down my writing time for routine letters by about 70% or thereabouts. It can’t be used for every situation, but for the ones it can be used it’s been a huge time saver. I definitely didn’t fistpump when I was sorting through the myriad of merge fields for the templates, but man, was the end product ever useful.

        I also started writing some procedure manuals last year–not that anyone else would read them (the duties listed were principally mine), but more to record to myself what’s the correct way of entering the teapot specs or edit the POs for the teapot spout orders since we had a steep learning curve for some software. I’m quite sure no one but me knew that they existed. Now that I’m leaving, those formed the basis of the procedure manual I’m writing for my replacement (though they will be expanded upon) and if they don’t hire my replacement quickly enough, those procedures will be hugely useful to my coworkers filling in while they find a replacement.

        I didn’t exactly jump out of my chair with excitement at any of these things; in fact, I said “aaaaaaaaargh” to myself more than a few times. But excitement and strength doesn’t necessarily have to go together.

    4. Snafu Warrior*

      I would first try to think about things that I do well consistently, because then you know that you can do it again and again correctly and confidently, which is a big plus. Then I’d try to think about how my personality complements the things that I do well. Frex, I always hit deadlines because I’m crazy neurotic about deadlines, but that’s not something I’d call a strength; however, I’m always teaching people little bits about what I do everyday because I like gushing about what I’m interested in, and I think that enthusiasm and ability to teach are definitely strengths. And then, since I’m assuming we’re talking about interview fodder here, I’d think about whether each of the things that I’m consistently good at and are complementary to the better aspects of my personality are things that I want to be doing more of every day in a professional setting, if they’ll help me on a course that will give me more transferable skills, etc… I’d find whatever strength does all that, and then talk it up like crazy.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Instead of looking for your “biggest” strength, why not look at your collection of strengths?

      Think about times when people compliment you.
      Think about times when people ask you for help. (That can be a compliment, btw.)
      How about times where you think to yourself “ah, I really nailed this one, I got it!”

      Don’t limit yourself to just looking at your strengths at work. Use a broader view, this will help you to make sure you covered everything you want to say. So think about school, volunteer work, household projects, etc.

      I found a cable for the cruise control on my car. The mechanic did not have time to research and find the company. I took the numbers home and googled. By piecing odd bits of info together, I located a small company in TX. I called the company and they said “yes! We made that cable!” wow. I am not a technical person (definitely know nothing about cars!) but sometimes I can connect things together in odd ways and pull a rabbit out of hat. This example makes me think of all the times I have done this in various work situations. Things that we do as a matter of course are the things that are easiest to overlook. Not everyone does these things.

      1. 22dncr*

        NSNR – this is me!!! I say I’m a Facilitator as I can facilitate anything. I know so many odd scraps of info, hear things that sit in the back of my head and then I can pull it all together to come up with the real story or what’s really needed. It can get freaky sometimes. Like when my Mom was working for Burger King Corp (pre-google) and she’d come home and tell me things. Then I heard some things and read some things and was able to come up with the story that they were being bought out. She told her boss (who she’d worked for before and was friends with) and he was “How does she know that!” It was supposed to be a secret – I even guessed the right buyout company!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I am laughing. When I was in school we had to do a paper on McDonalds. What should McDonald’s do to turn the company around. I said, “Salads.” And I elaborated that they needed to get away from the mystery food and start serving real food.

          I got a like a C or a C minus on that paper. And the prof went on to tell me what a ridiculous idea that was.

          And here we are a decade or so later and what is happening? But the answer fell together for me, watching the news articles on seemingly unrelated health topics, environmental topics and so on- I crafted my answer based on what people are going to be looking for in the future. The dots connected in my mind.

          I actually liked that prof, in spite of this.

    6. AnotherHRPro*

      Think back to what your managers have said about you over the years. Anything common? Put yourself in your manager’s shoes. What do you think they would say? I find that my managers over the years have described me fairly consistently. Our managers see us from a different lens than we see ourselves.

    7. HR Manager*

      I thankfully have had good managers and peers offer me valuable feedback. Often complimenting me on things that I may not have thought of as ‘strengths’ (like my stone-cold bitch face that makes me good at handling the most terrible drama-ridden terminations).

      As others have mentioned, you’ve probably found yourself gravitating towards different problems and projects over the years, and have had success in those things – that is a good sign of a sweet spot. Do you also have people who tend to come to you with certain types of problems or seek you out in certain scenarios because they think you’re the go-to person in those situations?

      I know many don’t like the concept of personal brands, but if you had one, that would be your strength as well. It could be awesome service orientation, to technical guru, to ultimate problem solver.

  25. Felicia*

    Today at work we got an unsolicited resume that had glitter on it. Glitter. And the person claimed to have 15 years experience (in something we’re not currently hiring for). They also misspelled the name of the city where one of their previous positions were located, had an empty bullet-point, called themselves a wizard at something, and was totally off about what our company does e.g. she said she was excited for the opportunity to be a part of a company that advocates for chocolate teapots, when in fact we advocate for strawberry microwaves, and have nothing to do with chocolate teapots. I guess she wanted to be memorable with the glitter and she was. Just in a bad way.

    Anyone have any stories of receiving equally horrible resumes?

    2. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      That is amazing.

      Not a resume, but last week I saw a job ad that asked “This is not an adult business but the position will require lots of SEX APPEAL!” which hey, you don’t see every day. It was an administrative assistant job.

      1. Felicia*

        I have to approve the postings on our job board as part of my job and there a lot like that. Or a lot that say “women only” and they are shocked when i let them know that’s illegal.

          1. Felicia*

            Idiots?

            The jobs are never actually posted because I have to approve them first , but they try, and they don’t believe me when I tell them it’s illegal.

            It is jobs for registered massage therapists…you can actually find a lot of “women only” job postings for massage therapists on places like indeed.

            1. Creag an Tuire*

              If I saw that ad, I’d assume rightly or wrongly that it was for a… “massage therapist”.

              1. Felicia*

                Generally they’re adds from totally legitimate health clinics, often run by doctors, physiotherapists or chiropractors, and actually for Registered Massage Therapists, who are regulated health professionals in Ontario, and are governed in the same structure that things like doctors and dentists are covered, require 2-3 year diplomas and have to know things like anatomy and physiology. Which I think makes it worse, because they are legit jobs that say “women only” because the physio or whatever doesn’t realize that’s illegal

              2. Felicia*

                There are some that are for a “massage therapist” and we say, thats extra illegal, we don’t do that, regulated health profession…

        1. Nerdling*

          If it were for an admin assistant to John Hamm’s pants, I would apply. Just sayin’.

          But seriously, so much WTF.

    3. LuLu*

      I once got a resume in picture format — as in, the person drew a chocolate teapot and labelled the base with their education, the spout as their willingness to give to others, the handle as their previous experience, etc. It was clearly done in MS Paint.

      2. Future Analyst*

        Not gonna lie, I would love getting a resume like this. I think it would work for a position in which creativity is a necessity– marketing, or even teaching. (I’m picturing a schoolhouse for a teacher, with education as the foundation, speciality qualifications as the door, and exceptional projects or accomplishments as the roof.)

    4. Carrie in Scotland*

      I like glitter! That would make my day….but not on a resume. Oh dear.

      I once got a CV handed to me with lots of typo’s – and the person handing it to me wasn’t the person on the CV. They had their date of birth on it (a no-no here) and the person was more of a parent age.

    5. Perpetua*

      Not a resume, but as a part of a portfolio, there was an explicit illustration of men sodomizing a pig.

    6. Gene*

      As in, “glitter glued to the resume preschool-style” or “glitter that came off her from her evening job” or “glitter sprinkled into the envelope”?

      1. Felicia*

        Glittler glued to the resume preschool-style. I think it was glitter glue actually….just around her name/contact and as a kind of border.

        1. HR Manager*

          ????? Tell her that she has to apply online and she’s somehow got to include the glitter on the online application.

          1. Felicia*

            If we had a position available, she would have to apply online …we actually will have a position available as of next month, but in a totally different field than she appears to be in, and i’m kind of hoping she also applies for that with more glitter.

            What I found even sadder – she apparently works for the Government of Canada.

    7. GOG11*

      It’s like those glitter packages you can send to your “enemies.”

      “You may not hire me, but you will remember me when you find glitter in your hair in three weeks! Muahahahaha!”

      Unless it was just sparkly paper. Then that doesn’t apply, of course.

      2. Hlyssande*

        Have you seen the video where the dad wouldn’t stop opening his daughter’s mail, so she mailed herself a glitter bomb? It’s amazing. Just a small poster tube with a spring loaded pile of glitter ready to explode in his face!

        I don’t know if it was staged, but it’s definitely hilarious.

        1. GOG11*

          I haven’t seen that, but it sounds hilarious. There’s something hilarious about the juxtaposition of bright shiny stuff – so innocuous – and the nefarious plans you can hatch with it.

          One time I put glitter in my holiday cards…and then forgot and reopened one because I couldn’t remember if I’d signed it… *face palm*

    8. AndersonDarling*

      I saw a resume with the Objective: To spread the mission of my [insert religion] faith.
      The job didn’t have anything to do with any religion. I couldn’t help but imagine an admin “spreading the good news” while giving a presentation on teapots.

    9. Seal*

      Several come to mind. The first was from a young woman applying for a part-time position in the library I was working for at the time. She had an objective statement in which she misspelled the name of our library, and she misspelled the name of the community college she had attended before transferring to our institution. Her in-person interview was embarrassingly bad, too. The sad thing was that this woman was planning to be a teacher.

      One recent graduate applying for a position in my department sent a in resume that featured the copyrighted school logo as a watermark that took up the entire page. In school colors, of course. Along those same lines, I once got a hand-made thank you note from a different candidate that also included the copyrighted school logo. First guy didn’t get an interview, second one didn’t get the job.

      Another applicant for a different position sent in a resume that had her clearly Photoshopped picture in the upper left hand corner, with multiple script fonts throughout.

      At this point, I think a glittery resume would make my day.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      We got one at Exjob once that was several solid pages of text–rambling, disconnected, and just plain weird. The guy had printed his driver’s license at the top. I’m still shaking my head at that one, and if someone had told me about it, I might not have believed them. It went straight into the No file.

    11. Amber Rose*

      YES.

      On one cover letter, he talked about driving here to our province on his motorcycle with his girlfriend to escape his previous location.

      Another had at least 20 other companies CC’d on his email.

      Tons, absolutely tons, of resumes and cover letters talked about their experiences speaking with people about chocolate teapots when the job was more like working in vanilla frying pan factories. They clearly saw the job title but failed to read the description.

    12. Xarcady*

      A two-page resume, back before two-page resumes were a thing, typed, single-space. The applicant was in her 20s.

      Each line was a separate job that the applicant had had. In the past two years. Just pause a moment to work out how many jobs that was.

      She’d listed every one or two week temp assignment, every job she’d held for a month before deciding she was bored–everything was listed with a few words of description.

      My boss made me interview her. (Why, I do not know. We were desperate for help, but not that desperate.) Uncombed, messy hair; a wrinkled, faded black cotton knit skirt; a wrinkled, bleach-spotted brown t-shirt that kept slipping to expose her greyed bra strap, bright pink flip-flops.

      She claimed that she just hadn’t found the right job yet, one that wouldn’t bore her with details. Um, we’re a publishing firm, you’ve applied for a proofreader’s job. Details are the job.

    13. Burlington*

      Not exactly horrible, but I got a cover letter recently that was written like a freestyle rap/slam poem.

      It was actually pretty good! And I did tell him that… in his rejection (he wasn’t remotely qualified for any of our open positions).

    14. Not So NewReader*

      “I sorry we only accept applications with blue glitter. Please try to keep yourself up to date on current glitter trends and apply at a later date.”

    15. INTP*

      Once I came across a resume posted on Monster with a cover letter telling the guy’s entire life story (no particular emphasis on the professional aspects). This life story included the phrase “Then I spent a few years killing people in ‘Nam…” (As a military person, not as a serial killer. But still, while I’m all for being open about the horrors of war in journalism and literature, I think you need to practice some tact in your cover letter and not mention killing people.)

    16. Katie the Fed*

      I can only think of two really good ones:

      – One with a QR code. Maybe if we were in tech that would be cool, but otherwise, no.

      – One with big, stylized block quotes describing the applicant from people who worked with him. So like, a giant blue quote dropped in the middle of the page that says “Katie the Fed is one of the finest human beings this side of the Mississippi! – Katie’s boss from 2006.”

      So weird.

      Can I tell you my husband and I bond over ridiculous resumes. When one of us is hiring we get all giddy and call each other with little gems from them. Intern season is the BEST!

    17. Collarbone High*

      At Old Job, we requested writing samples with resumes. One woman who was applying for an internal communications job took photos of stories she’d written on her company intranet — not screenshots, photos, with a digital camera. Clearly visible were tabs for her timekeeping software, several job sites, and her Gmail, which had 2,799 unread emails.

      Another person sent Yelp reviews as writing samples, for a job that required 10 years of experience at a major newspaper or magazine.

  26. TotesMaGoats*

    I’ve had the BEST week. I’ve hosted a internship event with a major component of DHS that brought in close to 200 resumes. These were PAID, part-time internships. They haven’t done that in 10 years. Plus, my institution was the ONLY one in the country that they named as an academic partner. Because of me and the relationship I built. People waited in line for 2+hours to talk with the recruiters. It wasn’t just a drop off, they got federal resume advice and a mini-interview. And my new VP got to see it all and hear my partners say wonderful things about me.

    Then this morning we got them to commit to a date for a 2nd Annual mega job fair. Almost 300 people came last time. I just worked up an awesome event plan (before my boss could ask) and it’s awesome. Can you tell I’m still running on a high from yesterday?

    AND…an attendee gave me a contact with the national park service to do the same sort of thing with them. Boom. Drop the mic and walk away.

    2. C Average*

      This sounds amazing. Well done! Ride that high all weekend. It sounds like you’ve more than earned it.

  27. AVP*

    Hey, can we talk about University of the People here? I have a vague interest in switching into a job in an industry that they have a program for. I know it’s not likely that I would do an associate’s with them and get a job in that field, but does it make sense as a cheap exploratory program to see if I even like the area of study? I was thinking about taking a community college class in my city but the schedules for those don’t work with my current work schedule, and they’re still pretty pricey.

    1. fposte*

      Somebody in another thread had had experience with them and raved about them–maybe she’ll chime in.

      I think that because of their current lack of track record they’d be best fitted for an exploratory program; if you consider going farther to get a degree that would need to be considered by employers in your field, I’d do some research with people hiring there to see how they’d take a degree from there.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        There was another school mentioned in that same thread that seemed to be similar, Governor’s something, and several people raved about it and there were less questions. I’d check it out too.

        2. AVP*

          Oh, thanks! I’ll check this one out as well.

          I know that I definitely would not get a full degree from one of these programs and hope it got me a job, just that I want to see if this is something I really want to get into before committing to an in-person program.

  28. Lisbonslady*

    This may be an Alison question… hmm… but I’ll try here.

    My husband does HVAC work in NJ. Many times he is scheduled to be on call and there are no calls so he is not paid anything by the company. He has to be dressed in his uniform and ready to go, they actually have a time to respond guarantee and given the service area is large it can be a stretch to get there on time.

    Most other companies have some compensation for the the on call time. So I’m wondering if this is legal (assume it is) and how can he bring this up, if anyone has any thoughts around that? This company offers bonuses connected to other performance items, which other firms do not, so I think their view is ‘you already get more here than you would anywhere else’ but this is becoming a real issue as things slow down between seasons. They actually also charge my husband and everyone for uniform cleaning, whether they use the service or not… again with the whole ‘but look at the bonuses you make here’ mentality. They don’t provide GPS but expect the techs to have one and don’t provide tools but you can purchase them from the company at a discount. Again not the norms but until recently I think he felt it evened out in the end… not so much lately…

    Not sure what to suggest he do…

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      From what I found on LexisNexis and other sites, if he can watch TV or surf while at home it’s legal not to pay him, but if I were him I’d be applying for jobs at other HVAC companies that do pay for on-call time, especially considering all the other nickel-and-diming they’re doing. I think they’re blowing smoke about all these other “bonuses” that make up for these other problems.

      1. Lisbonslady*

        Thanks for the feedback, that’s the sense he’s getting now as well, on the nickel and diming… when he first took the job we were skeptical about this bonus structure but it was much better than where he was prior so he was happy. But things keep changing. For example, if a meeting is scheduled on his day off it’s now mandatory for everyone to come in. So he has to get up (everyone does) to be there for a 7 am meeting on his day off, only gets paid for the hour there and not the travel time (over 2 hours) and they do this regardless of days off or shift (meaning if someone is working the 4 pm – midnight shift they still need to be there for the meeting).

        Today was bonus day and they made a huge mistake on his check (this is the second time, last time it took a month to correct) and so it’s the last straw for him. I’ll give him the number.

    3. Natalie*

      Typically the question with on-call time is whether you are “waiting to be engaged” or “engaged to wait”. That is, if you are on the employer’s property, not free to leave, etc, than you are being “engaged to wait” and have to be paid. If you are free to be wherever you want and do what you want (within limits; drinking is usually not allowed) you’re “waiting to be engaged” and don’t have to be paid.

      I’m in the Midwest so perhaps it’s a regional difference, but generally on-call shifts aren’t paid. It’s typically considered part of the job, provided the amount of time on-call isn’t excessive. (Obviously one starts getting paid the minute one takes a call and starts working, and this is usually OT.) I’m curious what compensation is being offered in your area.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It seems to be epidemic in the repair industry. Business machine repair people work under similar nonsense.
      I tried to figure out why. There nearest I can tell is that some people not only are adverse to being chained to a desk, they also do not want to be chained to an office building.

      Well Known Business Machine Company had lawsuits regarding this kind of stuff. It was EPIC. And the courts were not that sympathetic nor that understanding. Lots of people got hurt on that one. When the dust settled it seemed to go back to business as usual. I don’t want to say too much here.

      Your husband can try another company, but I would not be surprised if he found similar shenanigans there, too. A friend of mine got a HVAC job at a hospital and that seems to be going okay for him. Conversely, if your husband is working for a national company he may try working for a more local independent firm. But smaller places have their own set of drawbacks.

  29. epi*

    Hi everyone! Question for the group: After having two seizures in the past two years, I was diagnosed with epilepsy and am now on anti-seizure meds. I’m not able to drive for three months (I live in a state that requires doctors to report seizures to the DMV), and will be re-evaluated by my neurologist after being seizure-free for those three months to get my license back.

    It’s likely that I’ll get my license back, as my epilepsy is well controlled on the meds, but who knows. There’s no certainty with this condition. I’m also a pretty inexperienced driver and pretty nervous about getting behind the wheel knowing a seizure could recur at any time if the meds stop working. I realize that having a car/being able to drive when needed (a rental, coworker’s car, etc.) is generally accepted as the norm in my field (nonprofit professional), especially as I have many meetings with stakeholders. I live in an area with fairly good public transit, but it doesn’t go everywhere.

    I thankfully have a job that doesn’t require driving (I can usually carpool with colleagues for car travel) and can walk to work (!), but I’m thinking about future career options. I’d like to plan how to bring up the epilepsy/driving issue with potential new employers, given that there’s a small chance I won’t get my license back/will not feel comfortable driving/may have more seizures that require me to give up driving for a period of time. I’d like to be transparent without jeopardizing my options. What do other folks recommend?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think whenever you’re talking potential accommodations, you should wait until you have an offer. Once you do, I think it’s totally fine to say “I’m dealing with a medical issue that means I can’t drive for at least 3 months, possibly longer. I don’t anticipate it to affect my work and I will be able to get to and from work reliably, but I want to make sure this won’t be an issue.”

      I can’t imagine it would be an issue for anyone, and if it is then you can formally request reasonable accommodation under the ADA. But I don’t think it’s going to be an issue.

      Good luck with it. I know those anti-seizure medications can be really exhausting – my dad was on one for several years and it just drained him.

      1. epi*

        Thanks Katie for the advice and support! This is so refreshingly simple. I really must have been overthinking it, as I do!

        So far, the seizure med I’m on isn’t causing exhaustion, but I’m at a really low dose, and I know they can be rough for many.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      So, when I started college in 2000 my mom had her first seizure. Thankfully, I was attending college where she worked, so I drove while her license was “on hold”. It took two years before she was allowed to drive again. The were multiple medication adjustments that meant she would have a seizure and the timeline reset. We were so lucky to be able to ride together. Her employer was incredibly supportive not just because she is well loved there but because that’s what they do.

      However, if you are planning to take a new job, it wouldn’t disclose this until well after hiring. If you are truly managing your epilepsy and haven’t had a seizure in a while then it’s just a quick convo with your manager. A heads up. But I wouldn’t mention it at all until much later.

      1. epi*

        Thanks for sharing this. So glad to hear you were able to support your mom during that rough time – and that her employer was so supportive and awesome to boot! I can only imagine how difficult it was to keep adjusting the meds and playing that waiting game.

        I actually had my first seizure at work, and my boss came with me in the ambulance to the hospital. It’s so key to have a supportive employer.

        I appreciate both your and Katie’s perspectives on when to disclose to the employer. I’ll definitely think about this – after the offer, or during the first few days. I’ll discuss with my neuro, but it sounds like if it’s been over a year without any seizures, it might be ok to wait. I do have a tendency to want to over-disclose…

        1. Melly*

          I think you should be really intentional in your interviews about work-related driving requirements. Lots of jobs won’t require you to be out and about in the field, and if that’s the case, the employer doesn’t even need to know as long as you can get to and from work.

          My husband has epilepsy and has no license restrictions (he has in the past, before we met), and he keeps his diagnosis personal. He did ask to change his hours to a later start (his seizures are triggered by sleep deprivation and later was just better), which was approved, no medical info needed.

      2. I have epilepsy*

        I’m a little late responding, but I wanted to chime in because I have epilepsy and have spent my entire career in nonprofit. I can drive right now, but there are times where I couldn’t (in my state, it’s 6 months seizure-free).

        What has worked for me is to not mention it in the interview. If I could drive at the time, there really is no reason for anyone to know. If you feel more comfortable telling someone, wait until you are hired and mention it to your supervisor or HR. In my case, I don’t want anyone to know during the hiring process because discrimination is very real. But once I’m hired, I don’t care one way or the other if people know.

        At times when I couldn’t drive, I still didn’t mention it at the interview. Driving might have been something that would make my job (I’m a fundraiser) easier, but it was never an essential function of my job. So I waited until after I was hired, then in orientation ask what the procedure is to request reasonable accommodations.

        Unless you are applying for a job as driver, this should not be an issue. Even if you are working as a major gift officer or something similar where you have to attend outside meetings. Driving is not an essential function of the job. Making presentations and meeting people was an essential function of the job. I make the distinction because I worked at a nonprofit where we had a blind person as a major gift officer. She traveled all day to different offices. For the most part, she used cabs to get to the meetings. (my city has terrible public transportation) Only occasionally would she ask someone in the office to give her a ride because the cab never showed or whatever. BTW, asking for a driver to get you to meetings is a very reasonable accommodations. That is no different than asking for a sign language interpreter or other type of service. It is the company’s responsibility to provide that (at their expense) if you ask for it.

        You need to familiarize yourself with ADA and the laws related to accommodations. It is very likely that your employer (or potential employer) will not have a good grasp of them.

        Best of luck to you.

    3. Sofie*

      I’m sorry to hear about your diagnosis, I know that can be tough. You’re not alone – I never got my drivers license because of a medical condition that also causes seizures. I’m a non-profit professional as well, and so far it’s never been an issue for me. I think Katie the Fed left some good advice. Best of luck to you!

      1. Mimmy*

        Just out of curiosity – What types of nonprofit professional jobs do non-drivers have? I can’t drive, but for me, it’s due to a vision impairment. I imagine it runs the gamut, but so many jobs require that you travel off-site for meetings, conferences, research data collection, etc. Argh.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          For what it’s worth, I’ve always worked in nonprofits and very, very few jobs around me required driving. There might have been some driving occasionally for the sorts of things you mention, but it wasn’t an essential, core piece of the role — which means that under the ADA, an organization would normally be required to find a way to accommodate someone who didn’t drive for medical reasons (by sending you in a cab or some other means of transportation).

          1. Mimmy*

            Thank you for your perspective Alison – I guess I’m looking in the wrong places. I’ll start a new topic so I don’t derail epi’s thread :)

            1. epi*

              Really helpful perspective, Alison. Sounds like it really depends on the nonprofit, and that driving is not super necessary.

              Mimmy, I work in fundraising and communications, so generally the driving would be to donor meetings/events where public transit isn’t available. Like I said above, I’m an inexperienced driver, and have always carpooled with coworkers when a car’s been necessary in the past. So it hasn’t actually been an issue yet :) But our executive director often drives to events and meetings where transit isn’t efficient (like, 2 hrs on transit vs. 40 min driving). I can imagine that if/by the time I’m at that level, I’ll hopefully have the seizures under control!

        2. Felicia*

          I work in a non-profit and no one is required to drive. In fact, I have never encountered a non profit that requires you to drive. There is the occasional conference, but twice a year we either take cabs, a plane or a train, depending on where. Or the boss rents a car and drives us all (it’s an org of 4 ppl)

          1. Al Lo*

            I work at a non-profit arts organization that does a lot of community performances, so both my assistant and I are frequently away from the office for performances, scouting locations, meeting with clients who are booking us, etc. When it comes to show days, we often have equipment that we need to transport (our equipment manager takes the sound great, but there are usually peripheral pieces of equipment and materials that ends up in my car). Having a car is definitely a requirement for both her and my jobs.

          2. Judy*

            I can think of several off the top of my head, locally that have positions that driving would be required.

            Girl Scout Council – the member development people are all over the place running training for leaders and events for girls. Habitat – the worksite and office are in different places, and every build I’ve been on, I’ve seen most of the paid employees over the course of the day, stopping by to see “what’s going on”. Our local nature center – the education employees have those turtles and raptors all over the city doing programs and they manage not only the nature center, but two other interpretive nature sites locally, but there are only offices in the main one.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yeah, I think it’s not “you’d never need to drive working for a nonprofit,” but rather “there are loads of jobs at nonprofits that don’t require driving — the majority, in fact — so don’t steer yourself away from nonprofit work just because you don’t drive.”

              1. QualityControlFreak*

                Exactly. The nonprofit I work for has a fleet of company vehicles and all staff need to be on the approved drivers list provided they are licensed and insurable. But while driving is absolutely a requirement for some positions (we do workforce training and a lot of it is mobile), most of our administrative and support personnel are based out of local offices/facilities. The only driving I have been required to do is my daily commute.

        3. Lia*

          The only people I knew in the non-profit I worked for who absolutely had to drive were gift officers and senior leadership (alas, we lost a VP candidate once when he removed himself from consideration after finding out we would not provide a car and driver as “(he) was accustomed to that at Big Name University”, his prior employer — NOT TRUE, because I had a friend who worked there who told me even the president of that university drove himself everywhere. Not joking). These positions needed to be able to drive to travel to meet donors.

          Some of our lower-level staff had very occasional driving, like to drop off mailings, pick up packages, etc, but there was almost always someone else who could do it if they hadn’t been able to.

          1. epi*

            That makes a lot of sense, Lia. Lol at that story!

            I’m actually a development director right now, and would consider similar jobs in the near future, but the donor meeting piece (plus, needing to transport equipment/materials for events/site visits) is what gives me pause. It’s hasn’t been a huge deal in my current org as we are connected pretty well by public transit to most donors (or I’d be going with a colleague who’s driving anyway), but definitely something to think about for the future…

        4. Sofie*

          I work at a nonprofit in DC, so I at least have access to public transportation (without it, I’d be a bit stuck). To answer your question about type of job, I do economic research.

      2. epi*

        Thank you, Sofie! So glad to hear the license thing hasn’t been an issue for you. What a relief to know there’s opportunities available for everyone. It can be so isolating to feel like you lack this “life skill” that most everyone else has! Hope all is well with you.

    4. GOG11*

      I don’t have a recommendation, but I wanted to wish you luck with finding a treatment that works well for you. Hopefully all goes smoothly and you’re able to get back to driving soon.

      1. epi*

        Thank you! I’m very thankful that the low-dose med I’m on appears to be working with no side effects :)

    5. Mimmy*

      I agree with the others – wait until you get a job offer, at the earliest. Although if it’s a job that is strictly in-house, I would wait–you could remain well-controlled for a long period. Even though it’s technically discrimination under the ADA, many employers still have reservations about hiring people with any medical condition or disability, even if the condition is not apparent. So mentioning something that may not impact your job for a long time could bring about unnecessary concerns. Just my two cents :) (I’m a bit of an ADA-nerd)

    6. HR Manager*

      Just ask – will driving be required for this job? For personal reasons, I will not be able to do so, and I just want to make sure we’re matching each other’s requirements. Don’t mention it’s due to epilepsy. It’s none of their business why and most smart recruiters will know not to ask.

        1. HR Manager*

          Either way. Sometimes, it’s better to vet that earlier and not invest too much time in a job that you wouldn’t be able to take.

    7. Anonathon*

      I’ve also only worked at nonprofits and a car has never been a requirement. At my current organization, we have multiple sites around the city, so there is a fair amount of driving — but it’s divvied up among the folks who have cars, we do carpools, etc. In my case, my spouse and I also share a car — so while I do have one, it’s often not with me. It’s never been problematic though.

      Good thoughts to you!

    8. INTP*

      Even if you aren’t cleared to drive, if you are applying for positions that don’t mention driving in the job description, they don’t ask you about driving, and you can find transportation there reliably without a car, I don’t think that you need to mention anything at all. There are tons of people who can’t drive for work travel because they don’t own cars and they don’t usually disclose this in interviews unless asked. It’s none of their business as long as you can get to work on time for the foreseeable future.

      If you are cleared to drive and your seizures are well-controlled, I consider that being able to drive “for the foreseeable future.” It would be ideal if you could only consider jobs that you could take transportation or carpool too, but if that’s not an option in your city, I still don’t think it’s something you need to bring up. So many of us have medical time bombs that might or might not go off – it’s no one’s business until they do, imo.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t know why I did not think of this earlier. NPO jobs around here will state that a DL is needed in their ads. And you will see that certain job titles mean driving around is part of the job.
      But, yeah, there are plenty of jobs that do not involve driving or involve so little driving you will just car pool.

  30. Court B*

    This is absolutely awful of me to feel this way but finally the office bully isn’t being tolerated anymore. She has bullied our clients!!! This was tolerated by an old manager who has since been demoted. She’s bullied staff to the point they’ve left for other jobs, staff and clients had complained about her yet the behavior continued. She has refused to complete tasks that are part of her duties.

    Now 2 other managers that are in charge are enforcing rules and ensuring tasks are getting completed. Jane has been avoiding scanning and filing documents for over 3 months and this morning 1 of the managers told her she has to scan them and she will check her progress by afternoon. Jane became angry and threated to quit and said “I’ll walk out and won’t be back” and our manager said “If you do that I ask that you turn in your building key before you leave if you aren’t coming back”.

    This has been several years that her behavior was tolerated and this morning something was finally done about it. Hey if she doesn’t want her job then there’s plenty of others that would happily take the job and perform the duties.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      I don’t think it’s awful of you to feel that way AT ALL! I hope the managers follow through with checking her work and managing her out if she doesn’t do what’s needed.

    2. GOG11*

      I don’t think you should feel awful, either. The change in management is improving the culture/environment and that is both good and the way an office should run.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I love these two managers. “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!” Yep. That is how to answer that one.

    6. Observer*

      I’m surprised the old manager wasn’t fired. As bad as it is let an employee get away with bullying and not doing parts of their assigned tasks, allowing someone to bully paying clients is another level of crazy. It’s one of the few things that pretty much anyone understands will drive customers away.

      The manager sounds like a pretty good person to have on your side.

      1. Court B*

        It was almost like she had something incriminating on her him. He would not discipline or replace her.

    7. justine*

      I’m so happy for you!
      Bullies are terrible, but managers who allow it are the worst!
      I wish work was a democracy where we could impeach horrible managers.

  31. AnonyMs.*

    I’ve run into a co-worker issue and could use some advice. I started a new job two months ago and I love it. I’m in a very small branch office, just me and 3 other people. The other person with my title who works in the office, “Minnie”, is a nice enough person but kind of clueless about some things. She’s been there a little over six months. In terms of title, we are peers, but we come in with vastly different levels of experience and are expected to lead projects that are quite different in nature. I’m not a huge fan of hers; she gives off this vibe that she’s “too cool for school”, she doesn’t seem to grasp certain nuances (on a very basic level, she had to be asked to wash her own dishes and she doesn’t silence her phone, which results in way too much whistling when she gets a text), she throws these mini-tantrums when she gets frustrated (this job has a very steep learning curve that she’s found steeper than many, and while the tantrums aren’t directed at me, I find them pretty jarring– we have an open-plan office). None of these things are serious, and I’m not quite at bitch-eating-crackers level, but I need advice on how to keep myself from getting there.

    I was recently assigned a very big project that is very important to our business. I am insanely busy, Minnie’s plate is empty at the moment. With that in mind, the manager on my project suggested I ask her to do some work for me. I emailed Minnie and asked her to do this task, and in my email I spelled out what I wanted. Keeping in mind that we’re peers, I tried to balance being direct with my request and being respectful of her time. She wrote back two hours later and had simply provided me with links to get the information myself– the workplace equivalent of Let Me Google That For You. I should note that she spent a good portion of our weekly team meeting talking about how she thinks we need to be more collaborative and tap into others for insights, advice, etc, so Minnie’s email was particularly annoying. I was set to do it myself, but I realized that was ridiculous and I don’t really have the time.

    Here’s where I ultimately need advice: during a daily check-in with the project manager, we called Minnie in, and the PM “gave Minnie clarification” on what we wanted (note: the PM did not know about my initial email and Minnie’s response). The PM also handed the conversation to me, so I basically repeated my request on the phone with the PM on the line. And you know what? Minnie went and did it. She did it well, too. I’m just puzzled as to why she didn’t do it in the first place, and my thought is that it’s because we’re peers and therefore she doesn’t have to do anything for me. Maybe that’s defensive, I don’t know. But this is going to come up again, especially on this project, and I have to keep myself from getting frustrated. Any tips?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think I would be clear when you ask her to do stuff for you that the guidance is coming from the PM, because she’s obviously not going to accept tasks from you. To some extent that’s normal – if a colleague delegated work to me I’d wonder what was going on to. So you need to make it clear you have the authority to ask her to do those things. I wouldnt’ assume the worst of her intentions – she might have thought you were trying to pawn your work off on her.

    2. LAI*

      Did she know that the PM had suggested that you ask her to help before the initial email? If not, I could easily see why she might think you were just trying to dump some of your work off on her, and was reluctant to invest a lot of time into something that she thought was your job. I’d be annoyed if a colleague asked me to do something that I knew had been assigned to them, without any other context or explanation. Once she realized that the directions were coming from the PM, then she did the job well, right? In the future, I’d just start off any requests with a quick “PM asked me to see if you could help out with X…”

    3. Jubilance*

      Did you clarify in your first email that the PM (or manager) wanted you to ask Minnie for assistance? I’ve had peers make requests of me and unless I know that they are being directed to do so, I’d be miffed that they are trying to assign me work. Perhaps next time you can make sure it’s clear that someone with authority is directing this so she doesn’t think you think she’s your subordinate.

    4. Judy*

      When I’m asking someone to do something that my manager asked me to assign, I usually write:

      Minnie, Jane requested that you handle a few items for project ABC.
      * Research THIS.
      * Blah Blah Blah

      I usually CC: the person’s manager and the person who requested I hand the task over, so it’s clear I’m not just trying to get someone to do something without any authority at all.

      For example, once my project manager gave me explicit instructions on what he wanted me to do, with explicit “do not do THIS”. My internal customer came to me and said my project manager really wanted me to do THIS. I called my manager, and was again told “do not do THIS”. In the end I needed to get my manager and customer on the phone together so it was very clear whether I should do THIS or not. The internal customer was trying to change my department’s strategy by pushing on the individual contributors to do what she wanted.

      Things like this happen all the time, so it needs to be made clear that you have the authority to ask her to do something for this project.

    5. Yet Another Allison*

      Copy the PM on any emails to Minnie asking for her to do something. Then add a note in the email like “PM, I’m copying you FYSA.” In other words, you are just including the PM on the emails so the PM can manage his/her people by knowing their workload.

    6. AnonyMs.*

      Thanks, everyone! Since everyone is saying similar stuff, this is good to keep in mind. I just looked over my initial email to her. I kept the language pretty casual, but I definitely said, “WE need your help! WE were hoping you could…” etc. If someone sent me that email, in our business context, I would figure it was coming from all players in the project, and in this case, that’s the PM and the CEO. This is not to defend myself at all; on the contrary, I have to keep that in mind for the future. I just kind of hate it, especially in light of her whole speech about collaboration during our team meeting. For what it’s worth (not too much, I know!), I had to ask another peer in another location to take on a much heavier part of this project (again at the PM’s suggestion– we agreed on which person we would ask), and she responded with, “Sure, what are the details, do you have any background materials for me?” So while I’m confident my request was in line with company culture, I probably have to tread differently with Minnie.

      Oh, and I just found time to look through what she did. It wasn’t great– parts of it were spot-on, but other parts were tone-deaf. She flat-out ignored some of our basic instructions (from me and the PM). She kept coming up to me the other day and checking in, telling me she knew there was more she info she could find, asking what I thought. So I wrote back with some notes and guidance and heavy doses of appreciation and I really, really hope this all works out.

      Minnie just replied to an email from another one of our peers with another LMGTFY type of answer… so I’m starting to think this is a combination of just-how-she-is and how I need to handle these things in the future.

      1. Yet Another Allison*

        Yeah, imo that use of “we” isn’t clear enough. I’m not suggesting being rude, but the amount of effort that you are putting in to these emails to sound appreciative should be the amount of effort that you are putting in to being clear about exactly what needs to get done. (Yes, I’m a task-oriented person!) My humble suggestion is to think of clarity as a form of kindness and respect.

      2. AnonAnalyst*

        I’ll agree with the chorus that in the future you should make it more explicit that the PM wanted you to ask for her help, but I totally get where you’re coming from with your original approach. If I got that request at work, unless I were absolutely swamped and there was no way I would be able to get to that in a timely fashion, I would just take care of it. I’ve also been known to make similar requests, which work fine in my current workplace but may not be direct enough in other environments.

        One additional thought I had (again, coming from the place of at times not being direct enough with requests): is it possible that she thought by providing you links to the info she was helping (kind of in a “oh, she doesn’t know how to do this, I’ll give her a heads up and then she’ll know in the future” way)? I’m guessing not based on your follow-up that she also did this to another coworker today, but if you look over your message again and see that maybe it could be misconstrued, you also might get better results from making it clearer that you need her to actually *do* said task. Good luck!

      3. Haven't you people ever of closing the goddamn door?*

        Based on what you wrote, I feel like you should perhaps get ready to deal with the concept that Minnie is just not capable of performing her job.

        One other thing sticks out to me: it seems like you are giving her direction largely via email? Just me, but if I have to hand work off to someone – especially a peer – it’s important to talk to them about it, via a face-to-face meeting, if possible. Plus it is important to lay out exactly what you are expecting them to produce.

        But having said all of that, my gut feeling is that she has competency issues. Fasten your seatbelt.

    7. Observer*

      Well, in these kinds of cases, it sounds like your best bet is going to be to tell her up front that your manager is the one who is making this request. So, you email her saying “Manager asked that I get your assistance on this piece of the project. What we need is x, y and z.” cc the manager if you need to.

  32. constipated accountant*

    An accounting job posting I’m thinking of applying to says that a sense of human is mandatory. Would it be too much to include an accounting poop-related joke in my cover letter?

    Did you hear about the constipated accountant? He couldn’t budget.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        To expand on this – humor is really subjective, and all humors aren’t the same. My team is hilarious, but we have a definite brand of humor. We had a new guy show up once who tried to join in the fun but his jokes were all…weird. Like the kind that made people really uncomfortable. I had to talk to him about appropriateness in the office and he was all “I’m just being funny!” and I had to explain where the line was.

        1. Jen RO*

          Haha, so you really did have something like my guy in the question way down below… my department definitely appreciates humor (even dirty), but thie new guy is just… not getting the flow right.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            Oddly it’s a different person! The one I referenced below is actually really hilarious – he just doesn’t know when to turn it off “and when to not hit send.” I’ve had to have the “Before you hit ‘send’ on an email, I want you to ask yourself ‘how would this sound in a deposition?'” talk with him.

            The one with the off humor is actually the guy from above who inflated his resume. He’s just super odd in many ways. He tries really hard to be funny but it just comes across mean or weird or too political and confuses us all.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I have occasionally tried adding humor to cover letters when companies say it’s what they’re looking for.

      YMMV, but it’s never worked, not once.

    4. Carrie in Scotland*

      Luckily I am now alone in my office – this is too funny!

      But NO. Don’t do it. Step away from the impulse.

    5. Sunflower*

      1. no. I would just try to be personable and show that you aren’t a robot or a rock. That’s probably closer to what they’re looking for

      2. I didn’t realize that sense of human was a typo and I sat here for a minute thinking ‘the heck is a sense of human?’

      1. De Minimis*

        #1 is absolutely right. Just show that you can communicate like a normal person and you’ll stand out.

      2. A Jane*

        Ohh, it’s a typo! I thought the job description was looking for a non-robotic personality. I automatically assumed it was a job posting for a start up or something.

    6. HR Manager*

      I like that they need a sense of humor, but poop jokes do not belong on a cover letter/application. Save the personal, laid back style for the in-person interview. No poop jokes unless the interviewer explicitly asks for one.

  33. Rat Racer*

    Hi – earlier this week (yesterday, I think) Alison posted a letter from an employee who was on a PIP and felt they were being set up for failure because they were over-taxed and trying to do the job of more than one person.

    This got me thinking because I am preparing to ask my boss for an additional FTE on my team because I am stretched so thin right now. I am thinking about pulling together a grid showing everything I am currently responsible for, what my one direct report is responsible for, and the current projects that are technically on my plate but that I don’t have the bandwidth to pay attention to. This grid would include another column of “future state”, describing how much more we could cover if we had an additional FTE. We could take on more projects, we wouldn’t be down to the wire on every. single. deadline., we could build in more QA, provide better supervision over our marketing and communications department, etc.

    Yesterday’s post got me worried that this could get my boss thinking that someone else could manage this workload with the resources currently allotted. Is that a viable risk to be worried about? For context, I did lose an FTE from my team last year – he moved to a new team and I did not replace him (hiring freeze, now thawed). And meanwhile, my role and responsibilities have grown exponentially as the year progressed and I was tapped to support for more projects oversight throughout the division.

    I’m reaching out to the community to see if anyone else has valuable “lessons learned” to share about asking one’s boss for another FTE. What are the risks? When is the right time to do it? Is this something I should prepare my boss for in advance and then set up a meeting to discuss, or can I bring it up in a 1:1?

    1. LCL*

      The right time to do it is to start as soon as you lose the position, and keep at it. Have a meeting to lay out your evidence, and talk to your boss about this every time you meet.

    2. Sofie*

      I’ve done this successfully before, and am in the process of doing it again. What’s worked best for me is to draft a proposal that outlines what our organizational unmet needs are, how they arose (e.g. increased funding for X and Y), how they affect our organizational goals, and some potential types of roles that could meet the unmet needs we have. Then, I mention to my boss that I have a proposal for organizational growth, and could we talk about it later this week? I send her a copy ahead of time so she knows what we’ll be discussing, and we review the options I’ve proposed to see what the best fit is.

      I don’t know if you’re well-positioned to do this, but then I also offer to take on the responsibility of completing all of the ridiculous paperwork that our bureaucratic university requires for new hires, draft position descriptions, advertise the position, review all the applicants, and do initial interviews. It makes it that much easier for my boss to say “yes” if she doesn’t have to do the tough stuff.

      1. Rat Racer*

        The responsibility for the administrative pieces of the hiring process goes without saying – although we’re a fortune 100 so we have recruiters and a robust HR department that will do some of the heavy lifting. My boss, who is a very senior VP, will probably not read my proposal in advance of the meeting, but I think that’s OK. She’ll at least have a head’s up that it’s coming.

    3. BRR*

      Are you getting less done since losing the FTE? If yes you could say we tried to maintain everything as we did without Jane but we need another FTE. If no you could say that you were fine since Jane transferred we were fine but with adding A, B, and C we need another FTE.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Slightly different angle here. Is there a way you can talk about your productivity levels when you had two people vs what you are doing now? “When Bob was here we did 100 accounts per week. We lost Bob and eventually changed things in our system so we can handle 85 accounts per week. But now it’s a year later and we really need to be able to handle 150 accounts per week. For this we need a New Bob.”

      I think your situation is different from the OP this week. No one is saying you are not doing enough work or doing it incorrectly. (That’s important.) Your group was supposed to be three people, this is proof of what the company thought of your work load. Annnd you can probably pull some stats together to back up what you are saying.

      Please do not worry about being accused of slacking, instead focus on presenting your talking points very well. Your talking points are all in place, they just need to be presented in crystal clear manner, so that it is incredibly obvious “oh, yeah, OP is right here.”

    5. AnotherFed*

      I would definitely not write out a massive proposal. I think you column idea is clear and to the point, and if you are already at the point where projects aren’t getting the attention they need, writing a significant proposal document could easily come across as tone deaf.

      Assuming your manager knows the quality of work you personally do and understands the work fairly well, I doubt you will find yourself in trouble, especially if you work with your boss to make sure that he agrees with how you have prioritized work and is aware of what simply can’t be done. If you wait to have that conversation until key deadlines are missed, then it’s likely to be a problem.

  34. Scott*

    Does Allison’s advice about not having a job until you have a written offer apply to internal jobs, too? I just gave my notice to start a contracting job in March because the place I work now promised me a promotion two years ago for excelling in a project and it never happened. My boss asked me to take this weekend to reconsider and said he was moving forward with the paperwork for the promotion, but that it might be another 3-6 months.

    If the promotion was real, I would stay, but after two years how do I know if 3-6 more months means anything at all and the contracting job is interesting, pays more than I make now (though not as much as I’d make if the promotion came through), and is something here and now with a firm commitment.

    I have to let both sides know 100% for sure on Monday.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I would say a firm commitment trumps a maybe any day.

      To talk about moving forward with paperwork after 2 years and adding another half year to the wait feels like a ploy to avoid having to hire/train your replacement. You’re worth better treatment than that.

    2. Sadsack*

      I would not buy into the promotion. You’ll withdraw your acceptance to the new job and then suddenly the promotion will also be withdrawn or kicked back by HR for some reason. Your sounds like a case where, if your manager really valued you, he would have given you the promotion when you deserved it, not jsut because you are now one foot out the door.

      1. Ama*

        Yup, seconding this. If it was that big a priority they keep you, they would have already put the promotion through (and I don’t really buy that they couldn’t rush through a promotion right now if they *really* wanted to). I fell for this a bunch of times early in my career, and I’m only just now starting to catch up on the advancement I missed out on while I was believing empty promises.

      2. Sadsack*

        P.S. This comes from my experience of having been told by my manager he and our VP thought that I deserved a promotion and so one was in the works…a year later it finally materialized. The VP ended up pushing it off, not submitting it to HR for processing until a year later for reasons never explained to me. I suspect it was budget related, but I’ll never know. When I asked for status, my manager had no information.

    3. Graciosa*

      The fundamental question is whether or not you reasonably believe him about the promotion – do you? It doesn’t sound like it. However, you haven’t provided much context beyond the time line. How long ago was the project completed (if the promise was made two years ago about a 22 month project you just finished, that’s a bit different from expecting to be promoted two years ago)? Did you remind your boss at that time of the promotion or stay silent? Does your boss have a history of going to bat for his people successfully, or either failing or not bothering to try? Do you see other people getting promotions on much shorter time lines than the 3-6 months your boss mentioned?

      The sense I get from your post is that you’re a bit disillusioned with your current job and/or boss and ready for a change, but are wondering if you’re not giving your current employer enough of a chance. If you’re generally disillusioned and ready to move on, I would go while you have the opportunity. Very belated raises don’t change the overall work environment.

      Of course, I may be reading too much into this, so more information would definitely help.

    4. BRR*

      1) It doesn’t sound like the promotion is coming. If your boss handed you the offer today it would be a different situation.

      2) I think her don’t take a counter offer advice applies here as well.

    5. Amtelope*

      A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush, especially when the contracting job is both interesting and better-paying than what you’ve got now. I wouldn’t trade a solid offer for “maybe we’ll promote you.”

      1. Scott*

        Thanks all. The project was completed two years ago. This place has a history of promising things and then not coming through. It’s too bad, because my co-workers are great but I’m looking at people who’ve been here for 10, 15, 20 years in the same job (on paper, definitely not the same job in reality). Time to try something new anyway :)

  35. Cath in Canada*

    What are your “small pleasures” at work?

    I have a thing for writing in non-standard ink colours, especially green and purple for note-taking and orange for marking up hard copies of documents I’m editing/proofing. Not for official documents – just for my own use. Well, until a couple of weeks ago anyway, when the finance coordinator I work closely with spotted my new pack of pens, and squealed with excitement – turns out she shares my enjoyment of such things! So now we both use a rainbow of colours on the post-its we add to official documents we’re handing off to each other, or on the monthly account reconciliation checklists that we share (and which no-one else sees). We even colour-code – green ink for signatures and notes on the bullfrog genome project, brown ink for the spruce tree genome project, pink and purple inks for cell biology-based projects.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      There is nobody here to tell me otherwise – I can often leave a bit early (15-10 mins) as there is little/nobody here.

    2. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      Mine are

      1) when people bring me chocolate

      2) when my coworkers ooh and aah over me being ‘good’ at Excel (“you can find duplicates just by clicking a button??” – my coworker, going through a 6000 record file) or knowing how to insert a hyperlink

      I’m like yes, yes, praise me for being such a genius. More chocolate please.

        1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

          Her case was a list of clients which had been compiled from several different lists. We wanted to send all of them a letter, but didn’t want to run the risk of some getting multiple letters.

          In that case, you can simply select the column of data you want to check for duplicates (ex. client number or client name), and click “Conditional formatting” -> “Highlight cells rules” -> “Duplicate values”. Every value that appears in your list more than once will be highlighted in red.

          1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

            (and if you sort the names/numbers column, the duplicates will appear beneath their originals, so you can easily compare and verify if they’re real duplicates which you then delete)

            3. Elsajeni*

              Beyonce Pad Thai, I bet you already know this, but for others: OR, if you already know that any duplicates you find will be real, deleteable duplicates — I’ve used this for a similar mailing-list project, for example, where I knew that, even if someone showed up twice, the mailing address would be the same on both records so it didn’t matter which one I deleted — you can have Excel delete them for you! Click the “Data” menu tab -> “Remove Duplicates,” tell it which column or columns to check for duplicates, hit “OK” and enjoy the time you have saved.

      2. Cath in Canada*

        I love learning new tricks and shortcuts in Excel! We had a three hour course on Excel last week and it was glorious.

        So I guess I can add “getting to do cool stuff in Excel” to my own list too :)

    3. Amber Rose*

      I like folding. We print out these enormous plans for government submissions that have to be folded down from table size to letter size in a very specific way. I am the queen at this. Mine always turn out perfect.

      Also I’m the office SPIN expert. The Spatial Information Network is a government site that I spend all my time on and I know more about it than anyone. Being an expert is fun.

        1. Jazzy Red*

          I used to fold blueprints (manufacturing). They were folded exactly like road maps. Some of the layouts were 6 feet long, and I was always extremely pleased when mine came out to the proper measurements.

          When I became a secretary, I had to fold letters and stuff envelopes for the Marketing Dept. I was really good at that, too. (Basically, anything that requires the skills I learned in kindergarten makes me happy.)

    4. fposte*

      Good pens. Not like Mike C’s fancy expensive pens, but just really nice flowing Bics or Papermates that just glide along the paper.

      Crossing things off the list, of course. (Discovering how to do that in Word was wonderful.)

      1. Kelly L.*

        Me too! My favorites are Sarasa. I like the “standard” colors as well as the darker end of the other colors; they have a nice maroon, a nice forest green, etc.

        1. CA Admin*

          I love those pens. I was on the debate team in high school and I fell in love with those pens and colored card stock for taking notes.

          1. salad fingers*

            Fellow former highschool debater who retained a love of colored pens from her days of flowing. Do you also amaze co-workers with constant subconscious pen flipping?

      3. EG*

        Pentel RSVP are my latest collection. I get small joys out of writing notes to myself in purple or green, while keeping the standard blue/black pens for official documents.

        1. blue_eyes*

          I love Pentel RSVP pens. I use black for everything, my rainbow set for fun, and bright blue for grading.

      4. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

        I like good pens too, but my definition is opposite yours. I like pens with just the littlest bit of friction– smooth-gliding pens tend to make my handwriting sloppy. My favorite pen of all time is a Pilot G2 07 in black. Nice dark ink, just the right thickness, and just a hint of friction. Perfect.

      6. Shell*

        I love my fountain pen with extra-fine nib. Super fine line that neatens up my handwriting with just enough tooth/feedback.

        Fountain pens are more of a pain to maintain, though.

        1. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

          I have a disposable fountain pen at work that is a bit too grabby, so I don’t use it much. The refillable fountain pen I have at home, though, gets a lot of use. But pens walk away from my desk often enough that I stick with my Pilot G2 07 blacks at work. :)

        2. Cath in Canada*

          I use a fountain pen at home. Nothing fancy, just a basic Parker pen that takes ink cartridges. It’s way too much hassle for work though. Our director has a Mont Blanc that is a thing of beauty. I want to ask to try it but I’m too scared of breaking it!

        3. Mike C.*

          What do you use on a regular basis? I have a TWSBI 540, Vac 700 and AL 580 in my pouch right now, but I rotate pens when they get empty.

          My wife bought me the most gorgeous Sheaffer Imperial (IV) Touchdown in black. I’ve never had an antique pen before!

    5. Katie the Fed*

      I put a lot of effort into my lunches. I usually deliberating make enough dinner for leftovers for lunches, and I’ll throw in something delicious like pomegranate seeds, and some good healthy snacks. It brings me great pleasure. I’ve also started going on a short afternoon walk outside – studies say it helps you be more alert and I like the exercise :D

      1. De Minimis*

        I love my walks! I try to go any time the weather is halfway decent—generally I can manage even if it’s a little chilly so long as I have a decent coat and the wind isn’t blowing too hard.

    6. Kelly White*

      I’m a huge Doctor Who fan, and found out my Office Manager is as well- so I use my Dalek and Tardis Post-it notes on things I pass on to her.

    7. Sabrina*

      The pancakes in the cafeteria. They have them every other Friday for breakfast. But I WFH most days and rarely have to go in on Fridays, so I haven’t been able to enjoy them in a long time. Though I’ve seriously considered driving over and just running in for some pancakes to go.

    8. Sadsack*

      I love to use a scented hand lotion a couple of times a day, for some reason that lifts my mood! Right now, the scent I love is Bath and Body Works Wild Madagascar Vanilla. I find it is a pick-me-up; I don’t know why, I just love the smell of it. I go through a ton of hand cream during the day, especially in winter, thanks to the yucky commercial soap we have at work. I only use the smelly lotion once or twice a day, or else I would reek of perfume.

    9. Natalie*

      A fridge stocked with multiple flavors of sparkling water. I will seriously drink 3 cans a day on a bad day. I just love the bubbles.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      When it’s time for a cup of tea. That first sip–ahhh.

      Anytime it’s a food day.

      Getting a freshly hatched report or module to edit. I clap on my headphones, select some music, and off I go. I get great pleasure out of cleaning up a draft and making it pretty. :)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          True, very true. I deeply apologize!

          Especially my Fortnum and Mason Classic Earl Grey (which I do NOT bring to work and guard jealously). I spilled some of it when I was cleaning the kitchen this past weekend and actually cried.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Sigh. My label maker. The boss picked out this label maker for our work. I did not think twice about it- then it arrived. It was love at first sight. When I use this thing it feels like “play”. It’s delightful to use. Sooo, I organize some stuff, put a big effort into making a logical system and my reward is to go play with the label maker to label all this stuff.

      My boss gets a charge out of the label maker, also. We were both amused to find out the other liked it so much.

      I want to buy one for home, but the tape is so expensive.

      1. Cath in Canada*

        The awesome student volunteers I recruited for the conference I helped organise last year were SO excited by the label maker we gave them, to make name badges for unregistered attendees. They’d never seen one before, apparently. It was super cute!

      1. Sadsack*

        Wow, that sounds fun. I cannot use anything other than blue or black, blue being my preference. Other colors hurt to look at!

        1. Sadsack*

          Ha, I do this, too. However, if you’d ask me later in the day what color socks I have on, I would not be able to tell you without looking.

    13. MissLibby*

      I just found out recently that one of our admin assistants loves fun colored and shaped paper clips and binder clips. When something is routed to her with a cute clip she replaces it with a plain one and keeps the fun one before sending it on. I don’t know why, but it just makes me happy that fun clips make her happy.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I do the same thing. And if I find out my coworkers like them, I make a point of sending some their way on anything I give them. :)

    14. AnotherHRPro*

      I just got new assorted colored paperclips. Large and small. I like to use certain colors for certain projects or people. There is something a little rebellious about giving the CEO a report with a pink paperclip on it. :)

    15. HR Manager*

      Wow, I’m lucky that I have a lot of small pleasures in the office:
      1) Real espresso machine with a milk steamer/frother (and free milk)
      2) Nice tea bags that actually produce good tea – none of the Lipton crap (and the Bigelow marginally better crap)
      3) Swedish fish in the reception candy dish!
      4) Mechanical pencils in our supply closet
      5) Fresh yellow highlighters (purple, green and blue do NOT highlight, people – they color).

      1. Ellie A.*

        Good tea, yes! I like loose-leaf teas at home, but they’re too messy to deal with at work. What brands of tea bags do you like?

        1. HR Manager*

          I do only loose leaf at home too, but in my office they have a brand called “Two Leaves” and they offer Assam, Tamayokucha (green tea), a Peppermint and a Masala Chai. They are all really good teas – comes in the fancier cloth/mesh bags. We have occasional off-sites at nearby hotels, and they offer the Mighty Leaf tea bags, which I’ve really like. I steal a couple of these each time I’m there so I can use them in the office.

            1. HR Manager*

              I do too, which is why I swipe from the nice hotels. :p My company pays for it, so it’s not really as bad as that sounds.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I found Twinings available at Walmart. I do like those, and they had both the English Breakfast and the Earl Grey (though not in the humongous box like my auntie bought for me in England).

    16. Anonicorn*

      I ordered organizers, pens, and sticky notes from http://www.poppin.com/ and love that my desk is now both organized and adorable. Having specific trays and bins to put my notebook, to-do-list, and stray papers in is just…ahhhh! The desk zen is strong.

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Those are great! I fear I may spend much money at that site, if I don’t have a weak moment and finally enter the “Room In Order” organisation products shop dangerously situated two blocks from work and spend all my money there instead.

        1. Anonicorn*

          I managed to score a more than adequate number of products for <$100 somehow. The double stacking trays are probably the most expensive item, at least for desktop organization. The most agonizing thing is picking out which colors you want. Coral? Mint? Navy? All of them? Yes!

    17. Ezri*

      I keep a notebook and adopted the baffling (to my coworkers) habit of rotating to a different color of pen each day. It makes my notes look like a rainbow, and I enjoy that.

    18. cuppa*

      I have a collection of fun sticky notes, and sometimes choosing which one to write on absolutely makes my day.
      Also, I keep amusing pictures and stories from the newspaper and put them on my wall to give me a smile when I need it.

    19. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I really love shortcuts. Not the kind that cut corners and cause bridges or buildings to collapse, more like keyboard shortcuts. Anything that I can do more efficiently and get the same result. Keyboard shortcuts, macros, even spending an hour writing a script for something that would otherwise take me literally one minute once a day….in three months, I’d have saved more time than I spent writing the script, plus sometimes my shortcuts benefit lots of my coworkers, so I am often boosting productivity for everyone!! :D

      1. Beezus*

        Yes! I discovered this week that ctrl+page up/page down can flip through sheets in an Excel workbook. It was a life-altering discovery!

        My coworker and I are working on this massive spreadsheet that uses formulas to recommend actions on customer orders that I used to have to work out in my head. I have been squealing over new developments for the last two weeks.

    20. In fact she's tilting pretty sharply bitchward*

      My workstation has a kind of mad scientist thing going on: three notebook computers mounted on two swing-arms, glowing USB cables, an ever-changing variety of keyboards, controllers, synthesizers, cameras, iPads, and a really nice amp and speakers, all mounted on a custom framework I built. I use a couch instead of a chair. It’s extremely comfortable, and really really pretty in the dark.

  36. Gabriel*

    Hey guys! I would like to seek your input about my job-hunting.

    I’ve joined my current company and three months has since passed. However, due to the differences in work culture, I found it difficult for me to fit into the company culture. In addition, my manager has been behaving like a micromanager, trying to dictate what I should be doing. To be honest, I have been very miserable and I’ve lost the passion in my work altogether.

    I am toying with the idea of resigning from my current job, and I am now in the midst of looking out for better opportunities.

    I am wondering, if prospective employers decided to ask me about my intent to leave my current company during interview, how should I best explain about it without sounding like I am badmouthing the company and my manager?

    Thank you in advance!

    1. Anonathon*

      If possible, I would wait to resign until after you have a new job lined up. As to how to explain it, I think you could focus on your own needs/wants rather than the company’s issues. Maybe say that you realized fairly quickly that this was not the right fit, the job turned out to be all about X when you really prefer to do Y, and you are anxious to get back to working in an environment that focuses on Z.

      1. Ellie A.*

        Yeah, agreed. “It’s not a good fit” covers a multiple of sins and doesn’t come across as badmouthing.

    2. HR Manager*

      Be honest but vague — after three months working, I realized the culture is not the right fit for me. Be prepared that they may ask you to be specific with examples of what doesn’t work for you.

  37. Beyonce Pad Thai*

    Can an office chair give you back problems even if it’s a decently fancy ergonomic chair? I’m 26, my back probably shouldn’t be cracking and popping all over the place. Just wondering if it’s worth trying to get it replaced by something else to see if that helps.

    1. Amber Rose*

      It can if you’re not sitting properly. You want your thighs parallel to the ceiling and your knees at 90 degrees and your feet flat on the floor and your back straight while you work.

      Your chair is only the first part. I have a nice chair but my desk is so low I’m all hunched up.

      1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

        I didn’t even think about the desk!! It might be too low? I’m taller than pretty much everyone I work with.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Try sitting with your back straight and resting your hands on the desk like you’re writing a memo or typing an email. Where are your knees? If they’re up high that may be your problem, and it could be worth looking into measures to raise the height.

          Some people also swear by standing desks if replacing it is an option. Though I find my feet get sore.

        2. Colette*

          If you work for a larger company, they probably can arrange for someone to come in and do an assessment. But yes, your desk is probably too low.

        3. Sadsack*

          Also consider if your chair has arm rests. Arm rests are bad – arms should be relaxed at your sides while typing. Your keyboard should be directly in front of you, like your dinner plate, and at a height where your wrists and/or forearms are not bent upwards to reach the keyboard. Monitor should be within arms’ reach with the top of it at or below eye level. I was shocked by the improvement in my back/shoulders/neck and wrists when I made adjustments to these things.

          1. The IT Manager*

            Yes. Typing on a laptop on a desk is bad because if the key board is at the right height the monitor is not and vice versa.

        4. Brett*

          Even the ergonomic chairs are only for certain heights. I am _shorter_ than everyone I work with and cannot handle ergonomic chairs at all. Nearly all of them don’t go down far enough for me, leaving my feet dangling in the air and resulting in numb toes by the end of the day (not to mention the seats are too long for me to actually slide back far enough to use the seat back).
          I’m not sure if being too tall for an ergonomic chair is as much of a problem as being too short, but I would not be at all surprised if it was.

          1. Vancouver Reader*

            Do you share a desk with someone? I love having a footrest but if I’m at a desk where there isn’t one, I try and find something, even a paper box that I can rest my feet on.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Yes. But then again, just about everything gives me back problems. Definitely ask to try out something else!

      Also, I read your question in Mindy Kaling’s voice and it was fabulous.

    3. Cruciatus*

      Oh, it’s possible. I think it’s the sitting that’s the problem. I had some luck with a chiropractor. I don’t pop and crack much anymore. I have to go every so often for a tune up, but it’s been worth it for me–might help you out.

      1. De Minimis*

        I’m all freaked out by the latest report that sitting can shorten your life span and that you can’t make up for it by exercising at other times of the day. So now I’m trying to get up at least once an hour, if even for a couple of minutes.

    5. Emme*

      Could you switch it out with a chair from an empty desk or a conference room chair for a day or two, just to try it out?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I just got a firm talking to by my chiro because I always sit on the edge of the seat. I never sit back with my back up against the back of the chair.
      He said I had the damage in my back that edge-sitters get.
      Who’d thunk.

      But it makes sense. I am always hurrying to get to the next thing, next thing and I never think about my sitting position in relationship to my work.

      The other thing to consider is that your monitor should be at eye level- straight across from your eyes.
      Edge sitting is lower back/upper legs, monitor is upper back/neck into skull area.

      1. AnotherFed*

        Yoga balls are great at making you pay attention to your posture, but lots of workplaces near me have been banning them due to safety reasons. Apparently too many people are hurting themselves falling off their yoga balls at work. :(

    8. fposte*

      In addition to the tips people have mentioned, I’ll note that you should get up from the chair at regular intervals. There is no chair so brilliant that it can guarantee you no back problems if you sit in it for hours at at time.

      (I’ll do a bit of a plug for Mindful Mynah, which I’ve just installed on my computer–it can give you an alert at whatever interval you ask, and it has some nice sounds to choose from. So when the birdie tweets I get up and get water, or file stuff on my desk, or whatever.)

    9. HR Manager*

      Oh geez, yes. I’m short, so chair no matter how ergonomic do not fit me, even with a foot stool. I think I’m going to suck it up and get a stand-up desk station, which is all the rage in the office.
      There was even a CNN article recently about how sitting kills you.

  38. Amber Rose*

    Guys, I’m gonna explode.

    I spent hours reading through the AAM archives. I revamped EVERYTHING. I had an interview on Tuesday that went hell yeah amazing and late last night they emailed me saying they wanna give me an offer and can I show up this afternoon to discuss terms.

    Yes I can. :D

    So. Question. How do you value yourself in terms of wage? I feel I am overpaid at my current job, for which I am grateful because we have no benefits and I am a sickly sort. That said, I have a mortgage and don’t want to take a huge pay cut if I can avoid it. The new job would also be in an industry I know next to nothing about so there’s going to be at least a bit of a learning curve. Is it weird to start low and negotiate a raise schedule based on performance?

    1. J.B.*

      Congrats!

      Don’t start low. Don’t think of yourself as overpaid now if you don’t have benefits. See what benefits they have, and if it would reasonably be worth 10-20 % less than you’re making now. Have that as your floor, then probably negotiate a little bit up just for the sake of it if they offer you more than that.

      1. Amber Rose*

        My concern is they will offer quite a bit less. I don’t want to undervalue myself, but this process has been weird since he just happened to have someone quit the day I met him and it just happened to come up in conversation and so there’s no job posting or wage range for me to work with.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Figure out what the norm is for your area.

      No, do not start low. Make a statement that has a range. Only use a range that you feel is reasonable.

      We just had a post from someone who did not get the future raise in writing. The raise never materialized. CYA.

  39. Cruciatus*

    So an administrative position for the state and in my city opened up recently. I’m currently an admin at a small school. I didn’t really want to stay an admin, but I’m not getting hired for other things and I’m wondering about going for the state position–If I got it I’d at least be “in the system” as they say. Has anyone been a state admin? The pay is better, but actually not great. But, better benefits… And first you have to pass the test. I’m sure I can, and I understand what the categories are looking for (except the effective expression), but what sorts of questions might they ask to judge your:

    Judgment and Problem Solving
    Effective Expression (What?)
    Arithmetical Reasoning (Basic numbers, right? Not Calculus 404?)
    Correspondence Reports (Do they want you to type sample emails/letters?)

    1. Sadsack*

      I just googled effective expression and found lots of sites. It has to do with the way you express yourself, communicating to others. At first, I had in my head that it was facial expressions, which didn’t make any sense to me!

    3. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

      I’m an admin for a division of my state. The pay isn’t fantastic (although I’m one of the higher-paying support staff in my department because of how autonomous I have to be), but the benefits are (my awesome insurance costs me $50/month as a single person, they’ve been putting 10% of my income into a 401k that will be vested to me come August, vacation and sick leave are generous). Merit pay increases went out the window with the recession– all raises are across the board and dependent on the state legislature. I’ve gotten a 1% increase each year so far (I’ve been here 3 years), which equals about $.16/hour. Ooh. On the other hand, I get Columbus and Veterans Day off, so there’s that.

      Judgment and Problem Solving, they might ask about a difficult customer service situation, what you’d do if asked to do something you haven’t done before, things like that. They probably want to see that you can act independently.

      Effective Expression is going to be communication skills– answering the phones, emails. Just be clear and concise in all your communication with them, from your resume and cover letter to your interview.

      Arithmetical Reasoning is probably basic numbers. I’d guess they’d want to know if you can look at an Excel spreadsheet that isn’t calculating correctly and be able to a) notice that it isn’t calculating correctly and b) know how to fix it. Data is EXTREMELY important for my division, and people have been fired for not noticing that the data was off (because it meant a several-million-dollar error). Even though I’m an English major, I know my numbers enough to be able to look at a spreadsheet or table and say “hmm, something’s not quite right here.”

      Correspondence Reports, yes, they might have you do sample letters/emails. Or they might just ask about your experience in preparing correspondence and/or tracking correspondence. Some positions require you to keep an email/phone log, for example.

      Good luck! I’ve enjoyed working for the state, and wouldn’t mind staying if I can move into a higher-paying position.

  40. Dolly*

    I can’t even begin to explain how gratifying it is to be appreciated in the workplace. Just did a regularly sched review and I was really worried because a few things didn’t go as well as I’d hoped. I got a lot of really great, positive feedback as well as some feedback on how I can make changes and prevent the negatives from cropping up again. I felt supported, heard, appreciated and rewarded for my work.

    I haven’t had this in a workplace before. It is truly amazing and makes me want to keep coming here every day.

    /Brag

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      Hurrah for understanding (and sane) workplaces! I am now in one as well and I think it myself “wow, so this is what it’s supposed to be like.

    2. Shell*

      Yeah, at my last performance review I asked my bosses for things to improve upon and they couldn’t think of anything. I laughed and pressed again because there must be something, I didn’t hang the moon or anything.

      When pressed, boss was like “okay, I suppose there were those times where some of your correspondence had some pronoun/antecedent mismatches (I was working off some templates that I’ve since updated) BUT I haven’t seen that in ages and I’m totally just nitpicking here because you’re putting me on the spot and I can’t think of anything :P”

      Another boss (jokingly, obviously this didn’t make it into the records) said that my aptitude at grabbing Timbits (mini doughnuts) for the office is great.

      It’s awesome being appreciated!

    3. the gold digger*

      YES! I was working in DysfunctionLand before (aka SergioLandia) and after five months in my new job, where it is acceptable to disagree with the VP and perfectly OK to say, “Let’s get started! We are way behind on the agenda!” and where my boss actually says nice things to me, I am still a little suspicious that it is all a trick, but I am starting to exhale. It is so nice. In SergioLandia, I had started to think that suddenly, after years of working for bosses who liked me and who are still friends, I had become a Very Bad Employee. But maybe it wasn’t me – maybe it was Sergio.

  41. Buttons!*

    I work for a nonprofit and we’re getting a new CEO/President in a couple weeks! (Last time this happened was in the late 80s, I believe …) I’m a director-level, so I’ll be briefing her on Day 1 and of course working with her a lot moving forward. I’m wondering, to what extent can/should one be candid with a new boss, especially when it comes to deep-seated organizational issues? I obviously don’t want to have a vent session on the first day, but I also want to make clear that I see the problems and would like to work together to solve them (if that makes sense).

    1. ArtsNerd*

      Don’t start by listing off all the issues in your org – begin with more positive/neutral territory. Then bring up the issues you see in an objective, factual way. “Like any organization, we’re facing challenges, both internal and external. For example, our biggest donor is very particular and asks us for major favors on short notice [instead of “a high maintenance pain in the ass”]. Some of our high-level staff are also working through different work preferences and communications styles, so it can be tough to come together on a unified plan to achieve our mission. The workload is also really high, and we could really stand to look at where it might make sense to pull back on that, or bring in more resources to alleviate it, so we don’t burn out our staff.”

      I’m the kind of person who if I have a good rapport with someone, will just say: “Every organization is dysfunctional in their own special way.” If they don’t snort with recognition, it’s a sign that I should either pull back and be ultra-diplomatic, or a giant red flag that they don’t have nonprofit experience!

      Otherwise, I’ll continue with something like this: “And here’s where ours is: [xyz expectations] but [reasons those expectations are totally divorced from reality.] I recommend [coping strategies]” Spoken in a calm, factual way.

  42. esra*

    You guys.

    Our office has a piano. One of the guys brought his kid to work today.

    The kid plays piano, poorly.

    It is not even noon yet.

    3. soitgoes*

      Say you have to make a phone call to get him to stop. Spend the rest of the day “on hold” with the phone up to your ear.

      2. Iro*

        Yeah … I’ve found that this statment kind of annoys adults who have radios on quitely and the like, but that it’s simply a recipie for “family hater!” if you say anything about kids visiting the office.

        1. BRR*

          Maybe just come out of left field. “I have perfect pitch and it’s torture to hear anything out of tune.” “If Johnny can’t play Bach without emphasizing where the main theme resurfaces in the fugue he needs to stop”

      1. HR Manager*

        Or drums. Remember that episode of the Brady Bunch with Bobby Brady trying to learn the drums?

    9. Lady Bug*

      In my last office, the owner’s teenage granddaughter would play Justin Bieber tunes, sing along, and even played along to the music on some ipad app one day. I really wanted to buy headphones for her. She would also watch Netflix on the computer with no headphones. I’d take bad piano any day!

  43. De Minimis*

    My wife has a phone interview next week….it was supposed to be this week but one of the interviewers was sick.

    This weekend I need to apply for a higher-grade job that just popped up nearby. There are also finally some fed jobs that came up close to the place where we would be moving if that’s what we end up doing, but generally my odds are usually not good for regular federal jobs.

    If I had my druthers, I’d just get the higher grade job nearby and we’d just commit to remain in the area a few more years, and hopefully I could move to a even better grade job later on. Not sure if any of it will work out though. We’ve been married over a decade and we’ve always had the “trailing spouse” problem—we’ve never worked it out to where both of us could have decent jobs at the same time.

    Oh, and in other news, I saw two white tail deer just now when I was out walking during my break. That was pretty cool.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      Deer! How fun.
      I’ve gotten excited over seeing squirrels and pretty birds before on my lunch break. Brightens up even the worst day at work :)

      1. De Minimis*

        We used to have a flock of wild turkeys who would hang out in the area, but haven’t seen them in a while….

        Though apparently the correct term for a group of turkeys is a “rafter.”

        1. Carrie in Scotland*

          I’ve always liked “a murder” of crows and “an aura” of polar bears. I think I saw that there’s a book about these out.

          *comes back 5 minutes later*

          will post the link in the next reply down.

  44. RJW*

    I feel like my current supervisor is trying to get me to quit. She treats me much differently than everyone else, blames me for most things, doesn’t respond to me, gave everyone a raise but me…pretty much all the signs she hates me. I am applying for other jobs and trying to put up with as much as I can. I tried to find out what I have done wrong and could improve and work on for the future-but I never can get a time to meet or any other response. I work in the HR department so this may be a question I should know the answer to but who, if anyone, could I try and talk to about this? I feel like going to the CEO or president is too much and could make things much worse. Do I just suck it up, keep quiet, and continue the job search hoping something comes along quickly?

    1. 22dncr*

      So sorry you’re going through this – been there many times myself. To the point I thought it was me. Once even had a boss toss my desk outside; that was special. The only thing I can recommend is to start looking for another job. There just is no winning when they decide to be irrational and hate you for nothing.

        1. 22dncr*

          Yep and she’d been there for 25 – 30 years and had never done that before. The guys I worked with were flabbergasted by it (it was a car Dealership and I really worked in the Parts Dept but because I was a “woman” I had to report to the “woman” boss). My bff was her special pet so I was kinda excided thinking FINALLY I’m going to get the real reason people (mostly women, I have to say) do this to me and all she would tell her was she hated me! No reason was ever given even after I left.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Your only problem was that job.
            She had much bigger problems. I cannot imagine where I would have to be in my head to think that it was okay to throw someone’s desk outside.

    2. Saleslady*

      I had a boss who hated me. I wish I could give you better advice on how to fix it, and I’m afraid I don’t know all the details, but my quality of life improved dramatically when I found the way to get out of there. Going over her head probably will not do anything but cause strain in the relationship further. You could try talking to her directly but in my case that made everything even worse.

    3. BRR*

      For now suck it up and search.

      If you have any really close people in the department you could always try asking them.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      She’s your supervisor. Is there someone over her that is still in your department or is the CEO the next on the chain?

      1. RJW*

        No one above her, she’s the director of the department. She’s been here about a year and a half. I’m the only remaining person in the department that had been hired by the previous director. That’s why I think I am being pushed out.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ahhh. Okay that makes sense– I mean it offers an explanation.
          Yeah, keep your head down, hunt as much as you can and keep a positive thought at all times.
          She’s decided to clean house and she probably is not going to change her mind. The CEO sees what she is doing and he is okay with it. I think your gut is correct on this one.

    5. CheeryO*

      Ugh, I’m sorry you’re going through that. My supervisor at my last job hated me for no discernible reason (threw me under the bus on a big project, ignored virtually all of my attempts at communication, left for a 10 day vacation without telling me that she was going to be gone…) I left with a giant smile on my face as soon as a good opportunity came up somewhere else.

      I would search hard and suck it up, unless you are sure that going above her will have the desired effect. Personally, it would have been suicide for me to go above my old supervisor, but that’s because the culture there was super old-school and change-averse.

  45. ACA*

    I have some exciting news! Yesterday a colleague of mine called me to let me know she was recruited back by her old job (sad for me, but great for her). “So would that have anything to do with the job posting for ___ I saw last week…?” I asked her. She said yes, asked me if I was interested (YES), and said she’d highly recommend me for it – and has already talked me up to her boss, who thinks I should definitely apply. She and I are meeting next week so I can find out more about the position before I apply, and once I do, she’s going to give my name to HR to make sure they pull the application.

    Even if nothing ends up coming of it, it’s a huge confidence booster to know that there’s someone out there who has that kind of faith in my abilities.

  46. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I have a follow-up question for hildi from yesterday’s interview with her, which I told her I’d post here for her to respond to: Hildi, as a task-oriented person myself, can you explain more about what it’s like on the relationship-oriented side of things? When you’re dealing with a task-oriented person (and let’s say you’re someone who isn’t as well-versed in the differences as you actually are), how are you experiencing that interaction? And what are some quick things that task-oriented people can do that won’t take a ton of time but which will pay off in their relationships with relationship-oriented people?

    1. hildi*

      Those are some fantastic questions – I’d love to know how a task-oriented person experiences someone like me (on second thought, no. I already know that I can be flighty, unfocused, and slightly annoying.). But honestly, recently I got dinged pretty hard one time in a behavioral style class from a task person for being too defensive when we talked about these differences. I try so, so hard to remain neutral when discussing in class but this group was really blatant in their stereotypes about each other and I let control of the class get away from me. It sucked. So I want to make it very clear that this is from my perspective ONLY and there is a whole litany of things that a relationship person needs to improve on.

      So much of how I’m experiencing an interaction with someone depends a lot on how much I already know about them. During my freshmen year of college I was elected to a state leadership position in an organization that serves high school students. We were a team of six and worked very closely with each other the entire year. One of the guys I initially hated. Well, hate is too strong, but I really, really didn’t like being around him. I thought he was arrogant and blunt and demanding. I didn’t feel like he listened to people at all. A big part of our job was to travel as a pair with my teammates to different high schools and do leadership workshops. I’m sure I was paired up with him several times and I think it was on those trips that I was able to see through the extreme task side of him to what I consider the personable side of him. I don’t know exactly what it was, but I’m sure he cracked some jokes; he probably listened to me, and he most likely shared a little bit more about himself (likes, dislikes, family, etc.). I felt more comfortable with him at that point because I knew our interactions were based on more than just getting the job done. We had genuine rapport and he was an interesting people. Fast forward 15 years and we are still in touch – he actually works for an agency in my organization and lives just down the street from me! So when I have to visit with him about something, I understand that he just gets to the point and doesn’t engage in a tremendous amount of chit chat. Likewise, I think he understands that I will try to chit chat with him and I will be more relaxed and casual and meander until we need to get to the point. We both have adjusted. But for someone I don’t know as well, all this stuff below is probably how I’m experiencing them.

      Some thoughts that run through my head when I’m working with someone whom I think is more task-focused than I:
      “Relax! Everything doesn’t have to be so serious.”
      “Do they like me?”
      “Geez, that was blunt. They could have said that in a nicer way.”
      “OMG, seriously chill out. This is not a big deal.”
      “RRRAEEERRWW” – {that’s supposed to be the bitchy cat sound with the claws out. No clue how to spell that}

      Here’s what will throw me off in a conversation with a task-focused person (and obviously these are all my perceptions – this is by no means absolute and I am not the spokesman for all relationship oriented people. I hope others (such as the task people don’t skewer me for these).

      — If the person shows no facial expression. When I can’t read someone’s expression I am very, very affected by that. I think mostly because it makes me doubt myself since I’m not getting the non-verbal feedback I crave. I start to feel like they are annoyed by me, think I’m stupid, etc. Then I start to lose confidence and act like an idiot, which only reinforces that impression to the person.
      Suggestions:
      • Be aware of how often you do or don’t smile. One time I had a new senior leader in my organization who was as task-focused as I am people-focused. She was quite naturally on a mission anytime she came into the office to speak to my supervisor, but she gave the impression of being angry, uninterested in “the little people” and very unapproachable. If she smiled a genuine smile when she came into the office and said hello while she was walking past, our impression her and her approachability level would have increased substantially.
      • When you are listening to others, nod your head slightly when you agree or when you are hearing something you like. This gives people that respond well to non-verbal feedback the confidence that what they are saying or proposing is striking a positive chord with you.

      — If the person blatantly disregards or doesn’t consider others’ input. Relationship people value very much the opportunity for everyone to contribute and be heard. Some of us will offer it up unsolicited, but many others of us will wait to be asked (I understand there are times when a decision needs to be made and no one gets to have input. But I’m not talking about those times – I’m talking about letting the naturally talkative people dominate the conversation at the expense of those that aren’t naturally as direct in participating).
      Suggestion:
      • Be sure to go around the table, the group and ask everyone specifically if they have any thoughts to contribute. Solicit others’ opinions – this shows that you are open-minded to different viewpoints and are genuinely interested in hearing from the other players.
      • If you hear something you disagree with or don’t like and respond with a quick dismissal of the idea – your relationship people are going to shut down and withdraw from the conversation and maybe from future interactions entirely. You’ll retain their input and enthusiasm for a project/task if you disagree with the idea while using cooperative language, a neutral tone of voice, and an invitation to help you understand their perspective.

      1. fposte*

        hildi, I’d say I can “speak” some relationship-oriented, but I’m absolutely task-oriented as my native language. My inner monologue amusingly corresponds to yours. “Does this mean we’re going to struggle to get this thing done?” “Does this mean I’m going to have to be the deadline administrator or even the bad guy here?” “Do I need to think about what point I redirect to the agenda/goal?” “Am I going to have to stay here later because of this approach?” I would say probably we have in common the conviction that we are doing things properly and the other person should really get on board :-).

        This doesn’t happen with people I know (unless they’re flakes, not just relationship-oriented); it’s mostly a response to people who are still unknowns and I’m trying to figure out what’s going to happen with the meshing of the styles. It’s been particularly interesting to watch this play out in committees; there’s a lot of ROPs in my field, and therefore most TOPs who’ve been around for a while are accustomed to that–but they’re also accustomed to having to bring the structure.

        1. hildi*

          It is interesting the inner monologue you have, but only focused on the job rather than self. I honestly would like to hear from TOPs how the experience ROPs and what we can do better.

          The hardest part of it all is actually changing our behavior once we become aware of it. I tend to live in the world of theory and idea rather than action, so I haven’t really gotten to that part yet. :0

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Is the secret that TOPs are focusing on the task and have nothing in particular to advise ROPs because it’s not part of the task????

          2. AnotherFed*

            As a major TOP here, I admit I have sort of a mental script/checklist for talking to ROPs – say hello, ask how they are, show interest in topic important to them, then get down to work. It helps me to think of this as sort of a pre-task setup step (which is not meant to be insulting, just how I frame it to help myself remember). I’m sure the people who know me well know that it’s not native behavior and realize it’s sort of a script, but recognize I’m doing it to try to meet them halfway. But when I get stressed or overwhelmed, I forget the script and move into very task-focused behavior, sometimes very bluntly, and then genuinely don’t understand why people are hurt or upset until much later when I’ve gotten through the task.

            Stress is going to happen sometimes, so the biggest, most helpful thing an ROP type can do is try to A) gently but not too subtly help us remember to get input from anyone we may accidentally steam roller and B) bring up feelings- related discussions after giving everyone some time to cool off. This will help tremendously by letting me finish something and giving me some time to remember that other people process differently and that even if it is baffling to me, it’s important to you and therefore worth trying to get right.

            1. hildi*

              Thanks AnotherFed – it’s helpful to hear your perspective! I really like the point about addressing the feelings AFTER people have cooled off. I think many of us ROPs want to tackle that as it happens and inadvertently make it worse. We push too much on the feelings, obviously :)

          3. Eva*

            As a task-oriented person who has become more relationship-oriented in the past decade, I actually began typing up a comment yesterday, but then gave it up because I didn’t have time to add the niceties I wanted to add, haha. So if you’ll forgive me for making this brief, the two things I wish all relationship-oriented people would do are:

            (1) Take my words at face value. Even though I’m task-oriented, I’m usually happy to go out of my way for others. If I offer to do something for you or to let you have your way in a matter, it’s not because I secretly want you to demur and offer to do things my way instead, nor does my offer come with strings attached in that I expect you to feel obligated to me in the future. I’m offering because I truly am happy to do it for you or because I truly am indifferent. You can take me up on it without spending five minutes gauging how I *really* feel.

            This is rarely a problem for me anymore with “normal” relationship-oriented people, because I’ve learned to smile and make eye contact and small talk (as you so constructively suggest, hildi! Great advice!) so my “outer niceness” matches my “inner niceness”, but there are a few people who I think need to work on accepting goodwill at face value. (The same people who can’t accept a compliment!)

            (2) Own your own wants. This is the corollary to the point above. If I ask you what you want, it’s so we can figure out a solution that takes your preference into account just like any other variable (including my preference). Please just tell me what you want instead of pretending to be indifferent when you’re really not and expecting me to guess and champion your preference for you (which I’m not very good at), or spending half an hour trying to figure out how acceptable I would consider your preference to be before tentatively putting it on the table. I’m happy to accommodate you as much as possible, but if you’re not straightforward with me about how I can best do that, you’re dependent on my low natural empathy to serve your needs, which is really not a reliable method! :)

            1. hildi*

              Eva, thanks so much for this! Very, very helpful! (and very nice, to boot!!) :) I’m going to save this to read several times to let it sink in.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          My inner monologue is the same as fposte’s, although probably also a little harsher because mine also includes things like:
          – When are we going to get to the point?
          – I had thought this could be a three-minute phone call.

          But like her, I don’t really have that once I know the person, if they’re proven to be able to deliver what I need. The problem is when their effectiveness is still unproven and all I’m seeing of them so far is a bunch of talking that isn’t addressing the task stuff that I need from the interaction. (Although I’ve gotten a lot better about trusting that we’re going to get there, and understanding that it can be to my benefit too to just let it play out at their pace — because I might actually get better results from them if I do that. It’s been hugely true with real estate and repair people in my life lately.)

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I can see chatty real estate people, but chatty repair people? Usually they are tracked on calls per day, so I kind of see them as being focused on the task regardless of their own personal approach to people. They have to get this call done and get to the next call.

          2. hildi*

            “Although I’ve gotten a lot better about trusting that we’re going to get there, and understanding that it can be to my benefit too to just let it play out at their pace — because I might actually get better results from them if I do that”

            This is really wise, I think. Because I’m one of those whose thoughts meander and go at my own pace because I’m processing as I’m talking. I can’t do that in my head first and then talk. But there is that fine balance of yakking without action and yakking in order to take action.

        3. INTP*

          My thoughts are a lot like this. When I’m in a group, my concerns are 1) that my grade, manager feedback, results, etc be as good as possible and 2) that we get these good results as quickly as possible so I can go back to stuff I’d rather do. So if someone’s desire to chat, or reluctance to make a decision until unanimity is reached, or whatever interferes with that, I get annoyed.

          If it gets really, really bad, depending on context I start thinking things like below. Some of this is really harsh so I’d like to disclaim that I know this and I don’t hate relationship-oriented people or anything! I just get easily annoyed when interpersonal stuff gets in the way of results or efficiency. I’m an INTP after all and my inner dialogue is not usually warm and fuzzy.
          “Does this person not want to go home?”
          “Is this person using this project to meet their emotional needs for connection with complete disregard for the fact that the rest of us might want to finish and leave?”
          “Does this person hate their spouse and children and that’s why they’re trying to make this crap take so much time? Don’t they ever want to go home? Or at least care that the rest of us do?”
          “I am going to be so pissed if my grade is affected by Jane’s reluctance to fix Sally’s work because she’s afraid to hurt Sally’s feelings. Aren’t we all in school to further our careers, not to make random classmates like us?”
          “Well, I guess I’m going to have to be the bad guy. But what if Jane and Sally can outvote me and insist on turning in Sally’s shoddy work and my grade is affected?”
          “Ugghhh how do I rephrase this comment in a way that will get my meaning across without distracting the sensitive people with its bluntness?”
          “Next time I am going to insist that we all do our work separately and email because these people do nothing but discuss every tiny detail into the ground when they’re working together.”
          “How long do I have to let everyone discuss this topic in pointless circles before making an executive decision so that I look like a decisive leader instead of a bossy person?”
          “I know Jane and Feenix know that Sally’s suggestions will get points knocked off of our grade. How can they be so cavalier about this? Aren’t they seriously more concerned about Sally getting butthurt than their own futures?”

          It’s really nice to have someone around who is a strong relationship-builder but with some leadership instinct rather than a people-pleaser, conflict-avoidant tendency. I’ve found that I can give that person my negative feedback and they’ll relay it to the group in a way that doesn’t make anyone defensive or hurt any feelings. They can also delegate work in a way that makes things go efficiently (versus the conflict-avoidant relationship people wanting to discuss until a consensus becomes apparent instead of anyone telling anyone what to do) but doesn’t come across as bossy (like when a task-oriented person like myself delegates work before bonding with everyone).

          At one workplace, I took a test for conflict approach style and I was the ONLY one with a task orientation. The others were person-oriented or conflict-avoidant. I didn’t last very long there :)

      2. Baxterous*

        I think of what you call “task” people as “results” people — we aren’t so much focused on the specific task, we are focusing on the outcome/end result and making sure that when X is complete, it’s done correctly. if something is worth doing, it’s worth doing well, that’s our motto! :) But aside from my calling it something different in my head, it’s a very similar idea.

        When I read the list:
        “Relax! Everything doesn’t have to be so serious.”
        “Do they like me?”
        “Geez, that was blunt. They could have said that in a nicer way.”
        “OMG, seriously chill out. This is not a big deal.”
        “RRRAEEERRWW” – {that’s supposed to be the bitchy cat sound with the claws out. No clue how to spell that}

        Here’s what my results-focused mind thinks:
        “Relax! Everything doesn’t have to be so serious.”
        – Relax! Why are you worried about me? you can be how you want to be, I can be how I want to be – it’s all good, people are different.

        “Do they like me?”
        – How does whether I like you impact our roles and responsibilities on this project? As long as you do what you need to do, when you need to do it, we’re good.

        “Geez, that was blunt. They could have said that in a nicer way.”
        – My response to people who use “non-blunt” communication: “OMG he’s been talking for 10 minutes and it was a YES or NO question…and I still don’t know if his answer is YES or NO.”

        “OMG, seriously chill out. This is not a big deal.”
        – OMG stop telling me how to think. I’ll decide what’s important to me, you decide what’s important to you…I’m not interested in changing you but you seem awfully interested in changing me.

        “RRRAEEERRWW” – {that’s supposed to be the bitchy cat sound with the claws out. No clue how to spell that}
        – :)

        1. hildi*

          Thanks, Baxterous!! Your list makes me wince in recognition (particularly the talking for 10 min on a yes or no question. Oops). :)

          I’d even go a step further in your first paragraph and break people into subgroups: Results and Process people. There are some that are motivated by Results and getting things done (I suspect this is you?). Then there are those people that are really motivated by the Process and ensuring the process is adhered to, regardless of the outcome/results. I would put my husband here. He gets really pissed when people mess with the established process. He can be ok if some work doesn’t lead to results/action in a timely manner, but he’s really affected by people not following the process. It’s not exact, obviously, and a person can really value both of these aspects. But I do like your distinction of Results (vs Task) because Results do really, really matter to people.

      3. Student*

        Hi Hildi,

        As a task-person, I know we can sometimes be very serious. I think a lot of us are open to people taking it less seriously than we do, and hopefully won’t look down on you for having a less-serious attitude. But we act serious because we genuinely consider it to be serious. For us, taking something seriously is our way of showing that we care.

        Some of us are also not “nice” when we could’ve been because we genuinely believe that being too nice undermines the underlying negative message we’re delivering. That is something I think we need to be cautious about and concerned with how the other person responds, since it can backfire on more people-centered workers who focus on the “mean” delivery instead of on the underlying negative message.

        1. hildi*

          Student – thanks for this! I have never considered either of those points before (naturally!), but they are excellent. Particularly this:
          “For us, taking something seriously is our way of showing that we care. ”

          That really helps me a TON personally. Thank you so much.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Do you mind if I take a stab at this too (I know you’re asking Hildi but I’m a relationship-oriented person in a world of task-oriented types).? And as I confirmed yesterday Hildi and I are both NFPs – I think we’re often the outliers in organizations :)

      I think what super task-oriented people sometimes don’t understand is that having good relationships makes the tasks easier to accomplish. It doesn’t have to be an either/or – we can all get what we want by paying attention to how we interact with people.

      As a rare relationship-oriented type in a task-oriented organization, I value harmony and try to find win/win situations for everyone. But not everyone gets that – I work with lots of people who see things as a zero sum game – if they’re right then someone else must be wrong, etc. And it’s really hard sometimes to convince them that the moral victory isn’t always worth the cost to the organizational relationship. I often feel like a cleanup crew – I’m the one who comes in and tries to rebuild relationships that other people obliterate, and try to find workable solutions.

      One of the hardest managerial challenges I had was with a direct report who has some of the worst people skills of anyone I ever worked with. I consulted several books to help me leran how to deal with her, and one of the insights I gained is the most important thing to her is getting things done, and she often views other people as an impediment. She’s incredibly bright and hardworking, and she just wants to get things done and she wants other people to stay out the way. Well, the effect of that is that she leaves a virtual trail of destruction everywhere – nobody wants to work with her. So I had to coach her constantly to moderate her tone, include others, etc. It was exhausting because it never came naturally to her. Eventually I just moved her to a position where she didn’t have to interface with other people and could be a task master. She was great at it.

      So I guess I wish that task-oriented types understood the value others have in helping them accomplish their tasks. Your job will be a lot easier if you have a network of people who like and trust you and will help you out in a crisis.

      1. hildi*

        OMG, that was so much easier to read than how I try to say it. Thanks, Katie, this is spot-on for how I feel!!!

        1. Katie the Fed*

          I’ve been so flattered by this I didn’t even know how to respond. Thanks Hildi – that’s a great compliment. I loved your Q&A yesterday!

          1. hildi*

            waaaaaaa??? For serious? Thank you. Ditto. NFP GROUP HUG!!!!

            (actually, my husband was totally making fun of me last week when the Q&A came out. He was prancing around the kitchen saying in a falsetto voice, “‘I love you, hildi!!’ ‘No, I love you fposte!!’ What a sloppy lovefest this is for you.”

            It cracked me up. He wasn’t mean spirited about it, but he just didn’t get they hype. lol. :)

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I think sometimes I see an interconnectedness that others fail to see. It’s like my mind sees the blueprint of the plumbing system or such when other people just see the walls around them.

        Weirdly, I consider myself task oriented, but I’m relating in this conversation to hildi and Katie the Fed. I think I’d say I facilitate tasks through people. I’m good at that, always have been. I know all the players, their strengths, their knowledge bases, who can work well with whom, and I spend a great deal of my time just linking people up — inside my division, my company, my industry.

        But, it’s to get tasks done/serve the end goal. And I’m really busy so I don’t spend a lot of time talking to people about how their son’s soccer game went. Maybe I’m a hybrid?

        1. QualityControlFreak*

          Yes. Human resources are still resources, and vital to completing the tasks at hand. You keep the server room cool so your IT resources function properly. You maintain facilities and equipment. To get anything done, you have to ensure that all the required resources are in place and functioning properly.

          With people, that gets messy (to us TO types), but that doesn’t make it any less necessary. I’ve found it most effective when coordinating the efforts of staff to try to communicate with individuals in their preferred style. I’ve had to work at this! But for me the bottom line is about getting the job done, and this is the most efficient way to make that happen.

          1. hildi*

            That’s such a great way of thinking about it, QCF! Yes, I’m totally going to keep that in mind as a way to help explain the difference in approach.

            And thanks to everyone for commenting – your perspectives have really, really helped me understand the other side of thinking about it. Truly, it has enhanced my thoughts on this topic. Thanks again.

    3. ActionableResearcher*

      Alison, those are great questions. As a fellow task-oriented person I’ve been taught and found the following are quick and helpful which pay off when working with relationship-oriented people.
      -Be sure to say greet ROPs, a simple hello or good morning goes a long way.
      -Address the “why” and the “who” of the situation first, if making a request (why we are doing this project, who are they going to work with etc.) before getting to the how and the when questions.
      -ROPs are very responsive to appreciation and recognition, be sure to tell your ROPs how much you appreciate them personally and publicly and they’ll go above and beyond for you
      -If you’re finding yourself in a situation where things aren’t going well with an ROP, take the time to be agreeable (find some common denominator in the issue you can both agree on to re-establish the relationship)

        1. hildi*

          ….not that you’d necessarily care about working with me, but I mean that this is definitely speaking a ROPs love language. :) Or appreciation-language. (ang. Went too touchy feely there).

  47. a large chicken*

    What are everyone’s thoughts on IM etiquette at work? I work for a big company, but I am currently the only remote worker on my team. People tend to be very formal on IM, preceeding with a greeting, some small talk and then their reason for contacting. I personally am much less formal and have to constantly remind myself of the environment. However it drives me bonkers to have in addition to a greeting, go through this long pretense of “how are you?” before I ask them a question like “coffee?”, or “has the 2 pm meeting been cancelled?” The second part of my question is slightly related: as a remote worker I’m expected to answer every im quickly. Otherwise it is assumed that I am off not working and non accessible. These interuptions where people feel they have to ask how my weekend was, or how is the family are driving me INSANE. Just my rant of the day.

    1. LizNYC*

      That’s just bizarre. Your coworkers don’t know how to use IM. At my job, we use both email and IM copiously. IM is for quick stuff, like “did you get the file” or “I need this one number really quick.” Email is for longer messages and ones that have actual information that needs to be saved. But yeah, we don’t usually do intros on email (we’re a small company) and conversations just drop off.

      Maybe it’s because you’re a remote worker that people feel a disconnect because you’re not just a few feet away to follow up/make small talk? Or has IM always been this way?

      1. HR Manager*

        Yes, I do that on IM or even the phone sometimes. *lots of pleasantries that irk me* Hi Susie Q, what can I help you with today?

    3. businesslady*

      it may be one of those things that feels like a major norm, but most people wouldn’t notice or care if you weren’t responding in kind. you could type up a little blurb like “one of my new year’s resolutions is to use my time more effectively, so I’m trying this thing where I cut right to the chase in my IM communications–please don’t take it personally!” then you could paste that in each time you IM a new person, then see how they react–if people seem put out, you might just have to deal with a certain amount of unnecessary preambles, but it’s likely that your colleagues will be relieved to forego the “so, how’s it going” pleasantries.

    4. Amber Rose*

      That would drive me nuts! If I have any sort of casual thing to day, I usually tack it on the end of a work question. Can you try that approach?

      “Hi Jane,

      I hope your weekend was fun and you’re doing well. Can you tell me if the meeting is still on for 3 this afternoon? “

    5. Jubilance*

      My own personal preference is to say hello when I’m IMing someone and it’s our first time speaking that day. Just like I’d say “Hello Jane, how are you?” if I went over to their desk or called them on the phone. I HATE when people just IM me a question with no salutation first. I don’t need small talk, it can just be in the message – “Good morning Jubilance, just wanted to check on the status of the chocolate teapot manual, can you provide an update?”.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, I’d just write, “Hi, Jubilance,” then wait for you to respond, which typically is just “Hi.” Then I’d go right to my reason for writing.

        1. Sadsack*

          The reason I wait until I get a response is in case the person is in a meeting/sharing their screen and didn’t set their IM up for no disturbances. It gives them a chance to let me know if now is a good time before I go into my message. I would never think to ask how was your weekend/how are you kids in an IM. That’s just weird and unnecessary.

          1. cuppa*

            Yes. As “Are You Being Served?” as it sounds, I usually write, “hi. are you free?” just in case there is an issue. I work with a lot of people who are in open plans, so it doesn’t hurt to ask first.

          2. Hlyssande*

            That gives me a little bit of perspective, because the ‘Hi Hlyssande,’ thing (with the comma even) generally drives me absolutely nuts…though our IM service does show whether or not we’re in a meeting based on our calendars.

            I usually get the ‘Hi, Hlyssande,’ and then what feels like a few minutes of typing before there’s a ‘How are you?’ and eventually they get around to the questions. It might be more frustrating to me because it’s always a few certain people who do it and they try to get things done via IM when our server deletes the records after two days rather than via email where we can actually record what went on.

    6. Sabrina*

      If they start out with something like “Hello” I’d respond with “Hi, what can I do for you?” Or if they start with “Hi, how was your weekend?” respond with “It was good, what do you need?”

    7. ThursdaysGeek*

      This is funny in context with the post right before yours about task and relationship people. I wonder if that is part of what is going on.

    8. EA*

      I think it’s a question of knowing your audience … I tend to be more at the “get right to the point” end of the spectrum, but I know some folks are more conversational, and I try to respect that.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      Most people are usually more formal with email than IM. That’s kind of strange. IM is like chatting–it’s quick and immediate, real-time communication.

      I’d just answer like, “I’m doing well! What’s up?” when they ask stuff. And when you have to ask, “Hey, how are you? I need to ask you about the teapot spouts before we turn in the report.”

    10. MaryMary*

      This drives me crazy too. When I worked with an offshore team in India, culturally they felt it was very rude to begin a conversation without at least a greeting and preferably some small talk. For me, working with an inexperienced offshore team meant that I’d return from a meeting and have seven IMs that all said “Hi Mary…” instead of “I have a question about project X” or “can you have Wakeen give me a call” or “the conference call number has changed.” I managed to convince some of the people I worked with regularly to be more direct, but then I’d get another batch of new hires and have to wade through 5 minutes of preliminaries for a 1 minute question.

    11. the gold digger*

      I think this ties in very closely to what Hildi and KatieTheFed are discussing above.

      I work with almost all engineers, so we all get straight to the point. It is heaven.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Ha, I don’t know – I use IM pretty directly. “Hey – did you get that thing?”

        There’s a time and a place to hug it out :) but we’re also generally pretty busy.

    12. Sparrow*

      We use IM quite frequently in my office. The small talk would drive me crazy too. Luckily there are only a couple of people I interact with that are like that. When I’m sending an IM, I’ll usually start with “Hi Jane” and then ask my question right after that.

    13. Sabrina*

      What used to drive me absolutely nuts at my old company was people who would send you an IM saying “Hello” you’d respond in kind, and then THEY WOULD NEVER RESPOND TO YOU. What are you just sending hellos to the whole company even if you don’t know people? So generally I’d say hello back and close out of it so I wasn’t looking at it, waiting for them to respond. Sometimes they did, but quite frequently, they didn’t.

  48. Perpetua*

    What is/was your favourite rating scale for performance reviews, the one where you felt that it made the most sense?

    Unsatisfactory / Improvement Needed / Meets Expectations / Exceeds Expectations / Exceptional?
    Unsatisfactory / Satisfactory / Exceptional?
    Pass / Fail? :P
    Something completely different? :)

    1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      I think the first one makes the most sense (maybe because there are more options)? i.e. I feel like “Exceptional” on the second scale would be pretty hard to archieve even for someone who is more than satisfactory.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I kind of hate them all :)

      Our current system is like the first one, and what you find is that 3 becomes the lowest most people get. VERY few people get a 1 or 2 – you’d really have to punch the director in the face or something to get an Unsatisfactory. I think this kind of scale creates risk averse managers.

      If it were up to me I’d do away with scales or numbers at all and make it entirely qualitative – what your strengths ar, what you need to work on, etc.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      We have a 3 point scale, Does not meet expectations/ meets expectations/ exceeds expectations. We spell out exactly what it means to hit each level, and if we can’t quantify a goal, then we pick a new goal.
      I like this scale because it says exactly what it means. Any additional points on the scale would be vague.

    4. LuLu*

      We went from three options to four this year and I love it! You’re going on a PIP/Acceptable/ Great / Walks on water (okay, not the real names, but you get the idea). I really like have two “good”categories so that I can separate out my people who just barely missed that “walks on water” from the people who really don’t stand out in any way. Our raises are based on the ratings, so I really feel like they’re more fair with the new system.

    5. HR Manager*

      I believe in 3 ratings — not meeting expectations – meeting expectations – exceeds expectations.

  49. Advice Appreciated*

    I know it’s standard practice not to disclose/announce a pregnancy until making it through the first trimester (and I know from personal experience why that’s such a good idea). However, how do people balance the need for secrecy with the need to explain an (I’m assuming) obvious change in demeanor around the office? I’m still quite early on and don’t want to say anything but I’d really appreciate the flexibility that comes with being honest. Specifically, the ability to come in a little late or step out a little early when I’m feeling particularly awful (these moments seem to be increasing as the days go by, hoping that’s a good sign). I don’t want to come off as a total slacker who’s decided they can come and go as they please, but I’m also not quite ready to tell anyone. TBH, I’m not sure that people aren’t already picking up on it- I can only assume that my coworkers have noticed the stockpile of crackers and ginger ale in my office and may have picked up on the fact that I went from being a person who never eats at their desk to one who seems to always be eating at their desk. Anyone have a particularly wise way to handle this? I’m still a month out from the “safe” date and expect it’ll only get harder from here.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think this is a fine discussion for your manager – there’s no reason you can’t clue your manager into it and ask for some flexibility. As for other people – it’s really none of their business why you’re coming in late or leaving early and a good manager should be able to manage that. One of my employees told me early on that she was pregnant, and she waited forever to announce it. It was fine but it got kind of funny when she was showing because everyone was asking me – and I would just respond “I’m not going to talk about Jessica’s medical information, obviously!” and laugh.

      1. Advice Appreciated*

        Thanks, Katie. I’m not entirely sure our manager would be as discreet as you were but I’d certainly hope so. I can say that I learned a whole bunch about my coworkers (and their parents, partners, etc) during my first week of work just through the office rumor mill…and much of that was straight from the top. Guess I just have to figure out if it’s a risk worth taking.

    2. soitgoes*

      If it’s a matter of scheduling, you’re going to have to tell your manager at least, and you’ll probably have to tell your coworkers SOMETHING (not necessarily the truth), since nothing aggravates fussy coworkers more than a suspicion that you might be expecting them to pick up your slack.

    3. Maureen P.*

      Congratulations! And ugh, been there, done that. I suggest you tell your manager, if you have a decent rapport. Although I once worked somewhere where a manager revealed someone ELSE’s pregnancy on a conference call… but hopefully your manager can be discreet as well as understanding! To your coworkers, you can just mention that you caught a cold that you can’t shake (I’ve personally been under the weather since December, and I’m definitely not pregnant!). And, if your coworkers have guessed your situation, but they’re keeping it to themselves, then that’s OK too. Assume that folks don’t know, and odds are, you’ll be sharing the happy news in a few weeks. Hopefully no one you work with is rude enough to ask if you’re pregnant. Then, a horrified look should be sufficient to shut them up.

      I do have some good tips for hiding a precocious “bump” around the office:

      Wear dark colors, accented with a big bright drapey scarf. Dark-colored cardigans are your friend.
      Carry a strategically-held folder or interoffice envelope wherever you go.
      Come to meetings early, so you’re seated before anyone else has a chance to get a good look at you, then stay a few minutes late finishing your notes.
      Say “Ugh, I have so much holiday weight to lose!” until no one wants to talk to you anymore.

      Good luck!

    4. Rin*

      Not work related, but I’ve heard that morning sickness can be helped by eating less meat. That means less protein, but I’m vegetarian and I never felt nauseated once. I was very meticulous about my diet, though.

      1. Advice Appreciated*

        Interesting! I’ve had almost the opposite experience. I’m meticulous about my diet as well (or was, until this pregnancy) and I’ve had to change my entire approach to food. Protein seems to be a great way for me to stave off nausea for a while. Raw vegetables are completely out of the picture (temporarily, of course). I’m still figuring out what I can/can’t eat, I was very surprised by the sudden and pretty significant change. From what I’ve read this is pretty normal? I’m not stressing about it for now, just eating as balanced a diet as I can.

        1. Rin*

          Human bodies are crazy; they never do the same thing. But I think it’s pretty normal to have both tastes/aversions to food you didn’t have before and to have your body reject food that never used to be a problem (or the opposite, like stuff that used to upset your stomach doesn’t).

          At my desk, I had a little notebook in which I’d write everything I ate and drank every day, especially water, because I hate drinking – I don’t know why. So it would read: 1 banana – 2g (protein), water – 8 oz, Clif bar – 8g, handful of M&Ms – because I NEED IT.

      2. Future Analyst*

        I totally had the opposite experience. The only thing that kept me from losing it all the time was protein of any sort: eggs, cheese, yogurt, meat of any kind, etc. But I’ve heard of people having the opposite experience, and some have different experiences between pregnancies!

    5. Judy*

      The first trimester is a guideline, but my sister, MD, told me the biggest thing is the heartbeat. The miscarriage risk is much lower once the heartbeat happens. (ie. a big “All Systems Go” moment) So, if you’re past that (9 weeks or so?) and you’ve heard the heartbeat, there’s at least less reason to keep it to yourself.

      1. Advice Appreciated*

        Thanks, Judy! That’s great to know. Hoping to have that “all systems go” moment soon!

    6. Ragnelle*

      When I was in my first trimester, part of my problem was that I felt like I had the word PREGGO written all over my face, even though I wasn’t talking about it–I just felt so much different. What helped me was telling one trusted work friend and asking her not to share the information until I was ready. It made me feel like I wasn’t carrying around this great big secret at work.

      I ended up telling my then manager at about 10 weeks in order to negotiate some accommodations I needed. She is a huge gossip, but never breathed a word to anyone, even though I expected her to. Sometimes people can surprise you. Congratulations and best of luck!

  50. nona*

    Someone was supposed to train me on a basic part of my job. It’s not a huge deal, I spend maybe 5% of my time on that task.

    She didn’t.

    I have asked her repeatedly for help. She either ignores me or does the task herself.

    It’s been over a year. I’m very frustrated. Would contacting her manager be wildly inappropriate?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I would contact your manager first and explain that you haven’t’ gotten this training. Your manager could talk to her or her manager then.

      1. nona*

        I tried this. My former manager, current manager, and another manager spoke to her. Most recent was yesterday, earliest was a year ago.

        1. brightstar*

          Do you share managers or does she have one of her own?

          At this point, of her having been told repeatedly to train you and still refusing, I think it needs to be brought up to her manager. If I were you, I’d talk about it with my immediate supervisor to see what they recommend or if they will talk to her manager.

        2. BRR*

          Ugh this is frustrating. Do you know why she isn’t training you?

          I have a suggestion that is pretty assertive but if everybody wants her to train you could you get away with going to her in person and saying “Let’s set a time on the calendar today/tomorrow/this week (sometime soon) so you can train me on chocolate teapot making.” If she says she’ll have to get back to you don’t drop it. I would say, “I would prefer to set a time now since we haven’t been able to go over this yet for the past year.” If she says she doesn’t know her schedule I would then try, “What about tomorrow at 10?” One again this is if everybody is frustrated with her, I would out persist her.

          1. Judy*

            Or if you have online calendars, just look for free time on her calendar sometime next week, and put in a meeting request for training.

  51. Maureen P.*

    A question regarding social interaction with your spouse, when you both work at the same company. My gut feeling is that eating lunch together everyday would be seen as odd, but that never crossing paths would also be seen as odd. What’s the good balance? Lunch together once a week? Once a month? Occasional shared coffee breaks? Assume that both partners are in totally separate departments.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I don’t think it’s weird. We have quite a few married couples who eat together. I think it’s cute :)

    2. Kelly L.*

      I think lunch is fine, as long as it’s not schmooplunch like the co-worker from a few weeks ago who did PDA in the breakroom and brought random other family members too. LOL. But if you’re even asking the question, I doubt you’re the type to do that!

      (I think it also matters how big of an area you’re having lunch in. If it’s in the tiny breakroom of one of your departments, people might get annoyed with the extra person there all the time, but if you have a cafeteria? Go for it.)

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I work with my husband, and we eat lunch together nearly every day. No one has ever thought it’s odd!

    4. Ama*

      Just to offer the alternate experience, my SO’s brother and SIL work on the same campus (federal gov’t, different departments), and basically never interact at work unless they need to do an emergency consult about arrangements for their kids. (To the extent that when they got married, a lot of their coworkers didn’t realize they married *each other.*) Apparently they get teased about it a lot, but their reasoning is they like the space from each other during the day so they don’t feel a need for space after work.

    5. EA*

      My wife and I work in the same bldg, but on different teams. When we can, we like to drive together (doesn’t always happen as my schedule can be somewhat unique, whereas she has pretty routine hours).

      I find that we’ll usually end up having lunch together about once a month. Sometimes in the cafeteria, sometimes we’ll go out to lunch, either by ourselves, or with co-workers. We’ll also occasionally drop by the other’s desk if we’re in a conf room nearby, or just a quick “Hey, do you have any cash? I want something from the vending machine”

      On the days when we drive together, I usually end up at her desk at the end of the day. She’s 1 floor closer to the parking lot, and I’ve also noticed that when I say “I’m shutting down and leaving”, it means I’m ready to turn off my computer, whereas hers means “I have 2 emails to finish, and 18 programs to log out of, and then I’ll shut down my computer and be ready to go”

    6. TotesMaGoats*

      My hubby used to work at the other end of my small business park. I could and did walk down to his building during the summer and we had lunch outside. It was really nice. I miss it.

    7. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

      I’m one of those people who eats at my desk, but when hubby and I worked together he would always go out, pick up both our lunches, and drop mine off at my desk for me. People thought it was sweet.

    8. QualityControlFreak*

      Eh, we worked in this type of setup for years. But the reality of our days was that our paths seldom crossed while we were at work. We worked in different departments and were both insanely busy, so no shared lunches that I can recall. We commuted together, so we saw each other on the way to/from work and very occasionally during the day.

  52. Anon Anon*

    I’m struggling with a bout of depression at the moment, and until I get things under control, how do I cope at work? I work in a pretty upbeat, social environment (that when I don’t feel like crying in my car, is a great place to be). I sit in an open “cubicle” (if a cube can have two walls) and right in the path everyone takes to the lunchroom.

    My main issues: some days, I just feel like crying all.the.time. I can’t escape to the bathroom since it’s a small building. And it’s tough to leave early or take a sick day because we have an all-in-one bucket that, while generous, means I still need to be strategic in my days. I don’t feel “sick” enough for FMLA, but my days where I can’t get out of bed are just not ending soon enough (treatment takes a bit to kick in).

    Any coping mechanisms?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Oh you know, there was a REALLY good Captain Awkward post about this very thing. lemme see if I can find it.

      I’ll also add that you might want to consider telling your boss what’s going on. It depends totally on your boss but a lot more people than you realize have been through this and might be more understanding that you’d expect.

        1. Anon Anon*

          Thanks, Katie. That article has a really good perspective. (And I always forget about Capt. Awkward!)

      2. AVP*

        This link is seriously great…I haven’t dealt with issues like these in years but there’s still so much I can incorporate in my daily pep talks.

        Also, that story about having to manage the woman whose son died just slayed me.

    2. Calla*

      I have so been there. When it’s particularly bad, take deep breathes and focus on them. I assume by the bathroom not being an option you mean for a quiet cry–but I found escaping there just to have a place to un-obviously stand up straight, breathe deep, and then splash some cold water if you need to. If you have a co-worker friend with an office, that can be a good place to de-compress with someone who will understand if you get a little teary while talking. It’s also good to take breaks from work. Read a news article, watch a cute animal video, just go for a quick walk around the building, etc.

    3. BRR*

      I’m going through the same thing right now, ugh it sucks. I have no motivation to do my job and I LOVE what I do.

      If your bouts are longer you might want to take a day or two off if you can. I know you said you have to be strategic but now seems like a good time. If they’re shorter you might want to consider letting your manager know. Can you use the bathroom on another floor or cry quietly?

        1. Anon Anon*

          Ugh, I wish. One-story building. Office is overcrowded as it is and is “modern” so random panes of glass everywhere (someone’s always watching! ha). I escaped to my car one day (but we all park near each other). Having some time at the holidays really helped. I think I just have to remember that I WILL feel better even when I’m feeling my worst. I love my job too, so that’s why I’m like “get it together!” Maybe I’ll look and see if there are any slower (ha!) days coming up that I can take off…

    4. Not So NewReader*

      This may or may not be helpful. I have had stuff happen in my life that left me crying at random, inappropriate times. Not the same as what you are going through except for the fact that I could not stop the tears. And I never knew when the tears would start, I was always caught off-guard.

      At home, I would practice telling myself “it is okay to cry”. Nothing makes me cry harder than telling myself “don’t cry”. It doubles the load- tears plus guilt for crying. So I started working with- it is okay to cry, crying causes chemicals to release in the brain that help the brain to be healthy. (This is true.)

      The other thing I did was I worked on have cry times each day. Usually at night was easiest. But I would put on some sad music or address some sad thoughts and let the tears flow. The idea being that those tears have to come out of me at some point, better to have some control of where and when. When my father died, I had 4 months of designated cry time EVERY day. I thought I was never going to stop crying.

      Currently, I am doing a lot less cry times. But I do feel myself getting short with people, etc and once in while I will sit down again and just blat. The next day, I am more the person I want to be. It took a while to get to this spot.

      We have tears for a reason. Tears are supposed to help us heal what ever is aching inside us. Be sure to talk nicely to yourself when the tears flow.

      1. Anon Anon*

        Thanks, NotSoNew. This is really helpful — I know it doesn’t help when I’m sitting in a meeting and the wave of sads comes over me, and I think “you can’t cry!” I’ll have to start thinking “crying is OK” and see how that works.

        I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety 7 years ago, and despite near-constant treatment, it’s unrelenting. I have better periods of time, but it always comes back :/ (It doesn’t help that I have an autoimmune disease that predisposes me to this.)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          When I was having attacks right after my father died, I started doing breathing exercises. I liked that. It helped to distract me and I did feel better. I got so I did some just before I fell asleep and I slept better. The beauty of it was I could do them anywhere- no equipment needed. I like simple.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            This is similar to some mindfulness techniques, which can actually help a lot with depression and anxiety. Same with your comment about “it’s ok to cry” – mindfulness is all about really feeling the feelings and focusing on them instead of trying to shove them all back in. It’s quite helpful for me.

  53. Beyonce Pad Thai*

    I have a review coming up Monday but my boss only planned it today, so I guess I’ll have to do some thinking this weekend! He only planned in half an hour and I generally get the sense that he thinks I’m doing a good job, but I’ve only been here since August, so I’m still a little nervous. I made some pretty big adjustments (moved to a different country for this job, work in a different language now which I’m not fluent in yet) so I hope I’ve adapted well.

    I also just had my first medical checkup through work (is that a french thing or does everyone do this?), which is kind of a weird break in your day (to go pee in a cup and tell a doctor/coworker “Um, I don’t really work out”)

    1. Jen RO*

      Yearly checkup is a thing in Romania too (by law), except we don’t pee in a cup, we get blood drawn. (Last time they told me my cholesterol was a bit too high. I asked what I could do. She said to cut down on cheese. I’ll have high cholesterol.)

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I kind of wish regular check-ups through work was a thing in the US. It would save me the trouble of finding a primary care physician! It would also save me the hassle of trying to figure out the best time to take off work to go to the doctor. Of course, there are all kinds of other issues surrounding it, but I admit I’m jealous of my friends who work in huge finance firms and have a company nurse/doctor.

    2. matcha123*

      We have to do them in Japan. I don’t totally trust them since a few hundred other people are in the same room with me and it’s crazy.

  54. Peanut Gallery*

    My husband and I are looking for advice about making the jump to contract work/self-employment (which may have already been covered in open thread, but nothing jumped out at me immediately when I searched). We are in a fairly specialized industry, relatively high up, well connected, etc., but in an industry of small businesses where we’ve been able to learn about the whole spectrum – marketing, organizational skills, finances, etc., and after so many years of work, we feel equipped to handle the “business” side of becoming self-employed – we at least feel we know a good bit of what we don’t know and what that “to do” list looks like. (And I have been a contractor/freelancer for almost a decade now, while his work has covered all those things like insurance, additional withholding for taxes, 401k.) Because of his contract, there is no way to ease out by building up his own work, so we’d have to jump in pretty directly and what we’re hoping for is advice and good resources for managing the “personal” side – what kind of financial shape our household should be in, how to anticipate the tax changes, just how to best line ourselves up to weather what we know could be a not-short lean period or at least an unpredictable one. In short, any advice, resources, tips, tricks, whatever people found invaluable in starting their own business. Thanks!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      If I were in your shoes, I would want all my debts paid off (mortgage optional. . .some people have $50k owed, some have $500k). While we still had two incomes, I would cut our lifestyle down so that we could live on one income (your typical contract income) and I would bank his remaining paychecks until we had 6-12 months cost of living saved.

      I would also get new health insurance lined up and find a good accountant, if you don’t have one. My husband has run a business or been self employed for 12 years, and I haven’t loved any of the 3 accountants we’ve used. They could help you plan for taxes. I wouldn’t worry much about 401k until you get established and have a reliable income coming in. Someone will argue with me about compound interest, but a year is not going to kill you. Also, do not use any previous 401k money to fund your business, unless you’re over 60 and could do it without penalty.

      I would also boot strap growing the business as much as you can. He doesn’t really need a brand new computer or shiny new desk if he’s been using an old one around the house before. Get a new client, then he can get new stuff.

      Last thing is know what you will do if it doesn’t work or you have a slow time. Being a couple, I think it helps if you agree in advance how to handle things. When would one of you get part-time job to help with bills? When would you look for another F/T professional job? Is there another skill you have that you could freelance in if a crisis happened and your field took a nosedive?

    2. fposte*

      Not quite what you’re asking, but adjacent–have you explored things like the Solo 401k and the SEP IRA that would allow you to continue to save tax-deferred when self-employed?

  55. Pizza Lover*

    To all of the HR professionals: what does it really mean when a job posting is 2+ months old, but it is still on a company’s website? I’ve been job hunting pretty seriously for the last month or so, and using Alison’s wonderful advice, I’ve recently sent out some pretty tailored cover letters and have completely reworked my resume. I’m a recent grad, so I’m actively fighting the urge to resume blast, and I feel grateful for the tips I’ve read on this site in regards to applying for jobs. However, there are a few relevant positions I’m truly interested in that have been posted since November. I still applied, of course, but I guess I want to know exactly how likely it is that companies still look at candidates after all this time (this goes for jobs that are posted even more than two months ago, because I know they’re out there)? My assumption at the end of the day is always that companies are into the interviewing phase at the very least. I mean, I know it depends on the organization and whatever they have going on at the time, but I’ve seen it so frequently that I’d like to know from your experience if you guys ever look at new applications from a job that was posted months ago.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ve been hiring for a job for a client that’s been posted for probably six month at this point. Part of it is that it’s a really hard role to fill and it’s just going to take a while as we talk to various candidates, but also we actually hired someone for it at one point and then decided we needed to hire an additional person in the same role.

      There are other possible explanations too: Hiring got put on hold because something higher-priority came up, or there were questions to be resolved first, or all sorts of other things.

      So it’s really hard to read anything into how long a posting has been around.

    2. Jen*

      Not an HR person but yes it can happen! I applied for a job about two weeks ago, that I didn’t realize until after I submitted it, had been posted in early November. I got a call Monday for an interview. So it is possible they’re still looking to fill it, you can’t really tell.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      I’m not in HR, but in my experience, it usually means (one or more of) the following:

      a) they forgot to take it down
      b) they hire for this role all the time, so the position stays up more or less indefinitely (change the date of posting, people!)
      c) they’re leaving it there in case they have to re-open the search
      d) they’re just really freakin’ slow about the whole hiring process (this goes double extra with sprinkles for higher education)

      1. Pizza Lover*

        Yes to “d”! I actually wasn’t even counting higher ed because I work in academia now and see firsthand how long departments take to higher people. I didn’t necessarily assume corporate was the same, though.

    4. BRR*

      It could be so many things that unless you work there you will never know. And it might not be the same reason for each listing at the company.

    5. AnotherHRPro*

      1) Hard job to fill
      2) Selection and interview process is taking a long time (not unusual especially around the year-end due to the holidays)
      3) Hiring process has been put on hold for some reason
      4) Job posting can be a position that the company hires many people for so they are leaving it up to continue to collect and select candidates (think sales, call center, etc.)
      5) Sadly they could have forgotten to take the posting down

      Generally, you should assume that the job is still available.

    6. Pizza Lover*

      Thanks everyone! That definitely answered my question. I have taken the holiday season into consideration as well, but since I’ve basically seen this happening for years I was genuinely curious.

    7. HR Manager*

      When I worked in a highly specialized field, we had some openings open for a year! It’s not unheard of, and even if they are close to closing out, I bet any pipeline of qualified candidates would be highly appreciated in case a new opening comes up in that role. I’d apply.

    8. Lulubell*

      I’m still hiring for a position we posted in November. Just haven’t found the right candidate, yet.

  56. Nervous accountant*

    Slight reiteration of what I posted last week so nothing drastically new but I guess I need to let it out.

    My manager sat me down for a TALK this week, and it went on for almost an hour. She I’m not doing too well in certain areas and I need to turn it around. She gave very specific examples and very specific feedback, which was super helpful. I think I took it all well, except at one point I did tear up…I didn’t want to, it was embarrassing, but I did. Being told that the way you’ve been speaking all your life, the way your tone comes across is wrong, it’s rough to hear, no matter how correct and necessary it is to point it out.. She did have some positives to add, so something is working..but it still needs to improve. I said, half jokingly, so I’m not a lost cause? And she said, no, you have potential to be great at this, and you’re trying….and don’t call yourself that..So there is positive feedback but it’s always coupled with critical feedback and of course I focus on the criticism and tend to beat myself up over it.

    I don’t think I have SUCH a horrible personality…..I get along well with my coworkers, and even my clients like me once we’ve had a couple of interactions together and I’ve built up a relationship with them. But the initial ones, as hard as I try, some get a bad first impression. In my personal life, I feel content with being this way; I’ve lots of friends I didn’t have great first impressions with. But in my professional life, it’s not working.

    I know this doesn’t sound normal….changing my whole personality to fit in in a certain way…but that’s not really it. I just want to be good enough to be retained.

    Just needed to let off a little steam.

    1. Beyonce Pad Thai*

      Aw, that sounds really tough. It seems like your manager did OK delivering the message (I can imagine so much worse, at least) but I totally understand that something like that it very hard to hear and I’d have teared up too. I’m not sure what she means by your ‘tone’, I hope she gave you some more specific feedback you can work with.

      You are already good enough to be retained! She is reaching out to you to help you improve, after all, so she wants to keep you on. And if you’re getting good feedback from long-term clients I wouldn’t worry about changing your personality. Like I said, I hope she gave you some specific pointers you can work on .

      1. Nervous accountant*

        She did. It was a rough subject and she was gentle but made her point clearly. She said sometimes my tone comes across as flat. All my interactions are done over the phone so non verbal cues are hard to convey.

        Right now I’m seasonal and I do get the feelin they want to retain me bc of the feedback I get but the upper mgmt only see my scores from disgruntled clients (6 out of 160) and they need to have Somehjnf concrete to make a case for keeping me permanent.

    2. LBK*

      Was there any specific feedback about what gives people a bad first impression? As someone who’s also been told I can give bad first impressions, I’ve found that sometimes it’s not a case of completely changing your personality, but just getting in the habit of doing one or two small things differently that ultimately make a huge difference to how you’re perceived.

      For example, I’ve forced myself to get in the habit of taking off my headphones and turning around to make eye contact with someone when they come to my cube with a question. Even if I know that I’m a multitasker who can genuinely listen to someone talk as I write an email and while I have headphones in, the image that it gives is that I don’t care or I’m not giving them my focus. It’s unnatural for me, but just that small change in my behavior has made a huge change in how approachable I seem.

    3. fposte*

      I know it’s tough to get that kind of feedback, but I think you might be making it even harder for yourself–I don’t think it’s a referendum on you as a human, and I disagree with your read that this is “changing your whole personality.” It’s not–it’s just changing your communications. You’re not less you if you add “And how are the kids today?” to a conversation (or whatever direction you feel you need more of). You might remember Jamie relating the advantages she found when she consciously smiled at people in the hallways after getting some communications feedback–she didn’t change her personality, she just did a different thing than she usually does.

      You are a fine human being, and you can be the same fine human being with a few more communication tricks up your sleeve.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yeah, I agree. Don’t over-personalize the feedback. It’s not about you – it’s about your behavior at work. Those are different things :)

      2. Nervous accountant*

        Yeah. I actually heave-sobbed for a few minutes (privately in the bathroom during my break) but I know it was needed. I hear other people say things if love to say but it doesn’t flow well off of me, but now I know it’s practice. That’s all….

        The added pressure is that I want to be permanent so badly….I promised myself in the beginning I wouldn’t put myself through that again

    4. Katie the Fed*

      I know it’s shocking to hear all that, especially if you’ve never heard it before. But your manager really did you a favor in all of this – so many people complain that their managers never give them specific feedback, and that’s because it’s really, really hard to do. I’ve had a few of those conversations and they’re painful on both sides, I promise. But I have them with the people who I think have the potential to improve – if you didn’t have the potential to fix it she wouldn’t be talking to you about it, you know? So she knows you can do it.

      I wouldn’t take it on a referendum on your personality, either. Just think of it in terms of specific applications of your personality – how you communicate, primarily. It’s ok – it’s something a lot of people need to work on.

      I think just let it sink in a little more – the wound is still a little raw, and then ask her for more guidance if you need it. Like if you’re communicating with a difficult client, ask her to look over the email to check the tone before you hit send a couple times. In a month, tell her you’ve been making a real effort and ask if you’ve addressed her concerns. Show her that you’re taking it seriously.

      It sounds like you’re coming across a little abrasive – can you read over Hildi’s excellent Q&A from yesterday? Being more diplomatic is an art, truly. I often want to throttle people on a daily basis, but you learn to turn those feelings into mutually positive engagements.

      Oh, and for what it’s worth, most people cry during one-on-ones like this.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Oh, I actually appreciated it so much and I made sure to express that clearly. I told her I know she’s busy and I really do appreciate that she took the time to tell me this because I’ve never gotten so much feedback before. One of hte specifics of it was….”you come off as uninterested or rude on the phone even though you’re not like that in person at all.” So, I have to work on conveying warmth over the phone, whether it means changing my thought process, “faking it” until it comes naturally..etc. My manager had good things to say too, that I’m always improving and taking their feedback well, and that it shows. At another meeting, she said she had full confidence and faith in me that I’ll improve. So I’m not a total lost cause, and the positive stuff is encouraging too.

    5. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

      I’ve gotten similar feedback– that my tone suggested arrogance, or that I was upset when I wasn’t, things like that. It’s hard to hear, especially when I was giving an impression exactly opposite of what I intended! It’s also really tough to change– how do I make it clear that I’m not upset when I thought I was already doing that? I guess what I thought was clear and concise and authoritative was actually abrasive. Who knew? I’m not sure I’ve totally overcome this– I haven’t gotten any recent feedback about it, but that doesn’t mean much, since I’ve since moved on from the job where I was getting the feedback– but I really just had to watch what I said for a while, and think for a split second before speaking how it might come across, and how to make it more gentle if it had the potential to offend. Not easy. I wish you luck.

    6. Jennifer*

      Been there. I’ve never been told how horrible I am so many times until I started this job, and apparently everything about me manages to rub someone (not one someone, many someones) the wrong way. This is why I now have a SUPERPERKY persona at work. Which, guess what, they still don’t like EITHER (“can’t you be genuine and your normal self?”), but I get less crap for it than I did acting like my “normal” self, which is “rude and mean” and “doesn’t sound like you want to talk to us.”

      You have my sympathies, big time. I’ve come to the conclusion that the only way to survive is to give them what they want and to be fake happy at all times, no matter how horrible everything is. I found myself saying “everything is wonderful here” as someone was being hauled away by paramedics, mind you….

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I would cry, too. It’s hard to listen to this stuff.

      It sounds like she put some serious effort into showing you how to get out of this. That is a huge compliment to you.
      You said she gave you good examples and you don’t seem confused by her examples, so take small steps every day working with her examples.
      Ask her if you can check back in month or so- tell her you never want to have a conversation that hard again so you want progress checks. Try to have one or two questions prepared for your progress check.

      Every work group I have been in has their own unique way of communicating with each other. See if you can spot some of the unique/different things they are doing. I worked in one place that was so verrry busy that any request was always started with, “I know you are busy and I am sorry to ask…” To me that was annoying, to them it was a necessity- so I went with it, because I was copying their tone. So yeah, you do kind of have to blend in to their ways some what, but you can still retain plenty of things that make you who you are. And you are already doing this to some degree because you are telling us about your own personal friends.

      I think you will be okay in the long run.

  57. LBK*

    Way down here now so it will probably be missed, but just have to celebrate two awesome job things that happened this week:

    1) Created a proposal to complete reshape my position to include a higher level of oversight, more peer management, more of the technical back office work I love and less involvement with a team I don’t particularly like. My manager absolutely loved it and told me to formalize it so he could present it to his manager.

    2) Got an email this morning from the hiring manager for a position I got rejected from in December saying they had another spot opening on his team if I was still interested. He and his manager both loved me and told me I was just barely edged out by the person who got it last time, so he’s just bringing me in for a quick conversation next week. Hoping it’s mostly along the lines of “When can you start and how much do you want to get paid?” Fingers crossed!

    And fortunately my current manager is extremely supportive of my career, so it wasn’t difficult to tell him I might not end up taking the new position I just created.

  58. Mean Girl*

    I work in a public accounting office where we all typically get along well, which is crucial when you spend so much time at the office during busy season. In general, we have a collaborative, helpful, pleasant atmosphere. During tax season, we bring in interns. One intern, who has been repeatedly hired during busy periods because the partner who does hiring likes her, is a very difficult person to work with. She’s competitive and backstabbing in our collaborative environment, and very few people like her.

    I am hesitant to help her when she needs help with her work because she’s the sort of person who would not hesitate to throw me under the bus to a partner if I didn’t tell her the right thing to do and she got a correction. As a result, I only help her if I absolutely 100% know I am correct on an issue. Other people are also hesitant to help her, and she is also usually excluded from more social gatherings– like if a group of people run out to get lunch.

    I am generally a nice person, but this girl makes me feel like Regina George from Mean Girls. I can’t stand her, I can’t stand interacting with her, and I can’t stand the fact that we are all treating her this way, even though it is a consequence of her attitude and behavior. I think she realizes she is being excluded, but doesn’t know why.

    Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with her going forward? If it matters, I’m a lowly staff peon myself, not a manager or anyone with authority over her.

    1. De Minimis*

      Does she have a supervisor or some equivalent? Maybe talk to that person about it. Though if it’s a partner, maybe not….

      I wouldn’t talk about the backstabbing, but maybe something about how difficult it is to give her guidance.

    2. MsM*

      Honestly, unless the partners are in favor of backstabbing and that just somehow doesn’t filter down to the rest of the organization, I’m not sure it would be such a bad thing for them to see this dynamic in action. You don’t have to throw her under the bus before she does it to you: just document things to the best of your ability, and if she does go over your head on something where you didn’t give her crystal clear guidance, express to both her and the partner not only your sincere regret for any confusion, but your hope that next time she’ll talk with you directly so you can figure out where things went wrong together and learn from the experience.

      Alternatively, if you want to try and head the issue off before it starts, be super-helpful. Talk about how appreciative you’ve been of everyone who helped you when you were starting out, and that it’s nice to be paying it forward, and how happy you are to work someplace where people do that for each other. Drill it into her head that collaboration is the expectation in this environment, and maybe it’ll sink in.

      Or not. In which case, all you can do is hope that the most senior non-partner who has to deal with her is willing to put their foot down. But whatever you decide, I wouldn’t feel guilty. It *is* a consequence of her actions, and if she’s going to act like a mean girl, people are going to do what they feel they have to do to protect themselves.

  59. Ragnelle*

    My director has asked me to help him rewrite the old employee handbook, and wants to start with the dress code since it has been such a sticking point for everyone–it doesn’t help that ours hasn’t traditionally been a profession where people wear uniforms. Most of the 40+ employees here work directly with customers, and we have uniform shirts. Work provides several different styles of shirt (polo, oxford, cardigan) and the policy requires wearing that with certain colors of slacks or skirts. My boss really just wants everyone to use common sense when it comes to appropriate dress (the ultimate goal being that we need to be immediately recognizable as employees to help anyone who comes in), but we keep having battles over the details. For example, if you wear the cardigan, what kind of shirt can you wear under it? If you wear a skirt, can you wear colorful tights? Can you wear a non-work cardigan over a uniform shirt if it doesn’t cover the logo? What about large scarves? Etc.

    So he wants a policy that outlines what is and isn’t acceptable since, as he says, “people are apparently not smart enough to know what is and isn’t appropriate.” Have any of you run into a similar situation at your workplaces? Do you feel that strict dress codes are paternalistic? How do you deal with people who feel that they are being “victimized” by the dress code because something they do often is then banned? Just trying to get some outside perspective before I start writing and hopefully prevent a lot of hurt feelings.

    1. Colette*

      I think this could be pretty straightforward.
      “While working, you must wear an official uniform shirt. All other clothing visible to the public (including slacks, tights, sweaters, and scarves) must be black, navy, or grey, and may not cover up the logo on the official shirt.”

      You could certainly try to mirco-manage everything people wear, but you’ll probably get less resistance if you clearly state what is expected and why, and don’t try to predict all of the other possibilities.

      1. reader*

        Recommend it say including but not limited to slacks, etc. If you have a list there will be someone who will say “But, it didn’t say anything about cat ears.”

    2. fposte*

      Colette’s summation is excellent. If you need more, keep her approach in mind that it’s about what clothing needs to do rather than necessarily listing kinds of clothing. It also sounds like what you’re talking about may not so much be a strict dress code as one that needs to be much clearer than it is.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Personally, I like a list of what not to wear. Don’t let me come to work with open shoes and THEN mention “oh yeah, no open shoes”. Grrrr.

      I think the dress code policy can feel a little less paternalistic if the reasons/goals for the policy are stated in the beginning of the policy.

    4. HR Manager*

      I think I’ve written something similar here before. Regardless of whatever policy you put in place, there will always be someone who tests those boundaries. Always. You could be the most restrictive requiring a suit, and some will come in in business casual. You could do business casual, and someone will wear the jeans. You could even allow sleeveless and jeans, and someone will come in with tanks and flip flops. There is never a dress code policy that doesn’t require someone having a talking to, so your managers might as well get used to it.

    5. Ragnelle*

      Thank you all for the feedback. I’m working on writing it now and made sure to state the reasoning and am trying to keep it clear, but not too long. I did make sure to include a note about the shoes!

      My boss also decided to invite several people from different departments to give feedback on the policy before officially adopting it, which I think is a good idea.

  60. Kay*

    I recently applied for a job I was really excited about. It’s advertised as a bilingual role, with 75% of the job being responsible for presentations to clients, and 25% French customer service (phone calls and emails) with roughly 1-3 client presentations in French per month.
    I was contacted after the interview to say they’ve decided to change the role slightly and separate the French and English. They hired internally for the English, and they want me to come interview instead for a position taking inbound calls and emails, and also do the French presentations to clients as needed.
    The reason I applied in the first place was a) because I was interested in the position as advertised and; b) because I work in an inbound call-center and I’d like to get away from that. Is it worth pursuing the new position, knowing I’m not totally satisfied with it and seeking chances for growth? Can I let them know that I’m interested in something more challenging in the long-term? And yes, I know I’m really moving ahead of myself since I haven’t gotten an offer or anything.

    1. Colette*

      My thought is that if you know you’re not interested, bow out, but if you want to genuinely know more about how they reorganized the role, it’s worth doing the interview.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        I’m with Collette. If it’s a true dealbreaker, bow out but it may be worth your while to interview to see how the job is structured. It may be structured in a really interesting way and may be a good stepping stone to something else.

        1. kay*

          Thanks for the advice on this! I went in today for the interview and they said they want me to start in a customer support role to get to know the company and programs and move me into the original role in the future. I’m really excited

  61. SH*

    Can anyone recommend some good tattoo cover-up makeup? If it matters, it’s a medium sized tattoo on my forearm.

    2. Camellia*

      IT Cosmetics, available at Ulta and on QVC, offers one that is supposed to be fantastic. In fact, on the QVC presentations, they even have a woman showing her forearm and then they wipe of the concealer to reveal a large tattoo. You can go to QVC.com, search for IT concealer, and watch the video presentation to see if you are interested.

  62. A*

    A programmer friend of mine just posted an actual job description on facebook he’d seen on a job posting, and it’s hilarious – talk about a nightmare job!

    Desired skills:
    * Patience to execute repetitive tasks
    * Eagerness to work in an interruption driven environment
    * Stress resistance

    It’s just screaming, “this workplace is awful, you don’t want to work here!” But hey, at least they’re honest.

    3. HR Manager*

      It may not be the typical writing, but to be honest, I can’t think of one programming department where this wouldn’t apply, and they weren’t terrible cultures by any means. More like ‘welcome to the reality of a corporate work environment’.

  63. down by the river*

    One more general question for the group: Does anyone have a good answer or way to handle interviewers who ask if you are interviewing other places? After asking this they usually dig for more information asking where I am interviewing, what kinds of roles and where I am in the process.

    I have not found a good way to address this question with out refusing to answer. I generally feel like this is none of their business but they ask directly so it can be hard to avoid answering. I don’t want to say yes and give them a rundown but I also don’t want to say no and risk looking like no one else is even interested. I worry that this will work toward the same bias that makes unemployed people look less valuable than employed people with the same skills.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      What an odd question for them to ask! Of course people should be interviewing elsewhere.

      I think it would be fine to say something like “Yes, I’ve applied to a few places because I want to keep my options open until I have something certain. But you’re my top choice.” (assuming they’re your top choice)

    2. BRR*

      Ugh my boss and I disagree on this question. I don’t like it. She likes it to know how serious they are about the profession. Are they only interviewing for chocolate teapot roles or also vanilla and strawberry teapot roles. I’d just say I’m looking around to see what is a good mutual match. If they ask where you have interviewed I might say something like oh just some similar type organizations.

    3. MaryMary*

      I’ve been asked this several times when interviewing, and the best response I’ve come up with is to answer honestly. If I’m not actively interviewing with multiple companies but this position caught my eye, I say so. If I am actively job hunting, I tell them that but reiterate why I’m so interested in this position.

      I think the interviewer is trying to gauge the applicant’s timing and interest, the same way the applicant does when they ask about next steps and timing.

      1. Sunflower*

        I agree, they also might want to know if you are far along in another interview process and might need a decision/offer sooner rather than later.

    4. Iro*

      I get asked this all the time and I always answer honestly. For one, I think it’s a great oppurtunity for you to show marketability, if you are being interviewed by other similar companies in the area, that puts a little pressure on them to make a good offer.

      “Well, (shrugs and smiles) of course I’m also interviewing with [your biggest competitor], but what really drew me to this role is that I love working with X and I’m excited to expand my knowledge of Y”.

    5. CheeryO*

      Hate this question. I got it in nearly every interview that I had when I was job searching last year, and some of the interviewers dug farther than I was comfortable with. Looking back, I was too honest in most cases. The chocolate teapot company definitely doesn’t need to know that you’re also interviewing with teapot consulting companies AND teapot regulating agencies AND chocolate testing companies. I looked like I was throwing everything at the wall waiting for something to stick. (To be fair, I was doing exactly that, but I was a recent grad who didn’t know any better and desperately needed a paycheck.)

      So I would recommend complete transparency only when it strengthens your candidacy. Otherwise, find a way to shut that line of inquiry down (respectfully, of course).

    6. HR Manager*

      I’ve never been nosy enough to dig that much, but asking if you are actively interviewing elsewhere is common. I think when peppered with too many of those questions, just reply I’m focused on opportunities that provide me with xxx challenges, or companies that offer xxx. If someone is insisting that you give specific details to each one, that would raise a red flag for me.

  64. Audiophile*

    I posted in the last open thread about the application I filled out asking for my SAT scores. Someone mentioned Kaplan asking for scores for jobs. Well, apparently they ask proctors to audition. I did not know this, until I got a reply to my app asking me to record a video. Not sure how long they’ve been doing this, but I’ve proctored before, and no one was really interested in much I had to say beyond starting and stopping time.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      Some of the financial services/consulting firms also ask entry level candidates (ie, students in their senior year) to include their SAT scores on the resume. They consider it one more data point in the “high achievement as proxy for ability in the job” (along with leadership, GPA and relevant experience). I’m not a fan of SAT scores as part of the application requirements (unless you’re doing SAT prep) because that’s not really what they’re for (they’re supposed to correlate with success in the first year of college only).

      1. Audiophile*

        I just found it strange because it seemed to be based on not having a graduate degree, rather than less work experience.
        I can see if it’s your first post graduation job or something but I’ve been out of school six years now. Though I guess that still falls into entry levelish category.

    2. voluptuousfire*

      That was me. :) I can’t speak for proctoring but it was definitely needed for part time instructors. But again, with proctoring, you’ll definitely be in front of a group when proctoring so chances are they want to see where you are in regards to your presentation skills.

      1. Audiophile*

        I can understand for instructors but this seems to be a strictly proctoring role.
        I proctored a bunch when I worked for TPR and I enjoyed it, gave me time to study and do other things and I made more doing that than the actual marketing I did for them.

  65. La munieca*

    Hey y’all, would so appreciate some of your thoughtful feedback on my phrasing around rejecting a job offer. The role is well-aligned with my skills and goals, the organization is well-regarded and is a super innovative model, I liked the Executive Director, and my salary requirements were met. The issue is the manager (who reports to the Exec Director), who has given me the impression that she’s comfortable claiming bureaucracy to make her life easier, is concerned more about appearance than performance, and hasn’t shown compelling evidence that she has the back of her team. I’m thinking of phrasing it like this: “Thank you for X,Y, and Z. After a lot of thought, I’ve decided my current role remains the best fit for me right now and have to decline.” I rehearsed with my partner if she asks for more information about my fit concerns, I’m planning on just rephrasing the same thing and saying something about, “I think my current role is best aligned with my working style and feel that staying put is my best option for now” Any thoughts or revisions on this basic script? Thanks for your feedback!

    1. fposte*

      I’d leave the “working style” out of it. This isn’t an occasion for giving them feedback–you’re just turning them down. I vote for your first version.

      1. La munieca*

        Thanks, fposte! My tendency to provide too much detail when not telling the whole truth is surfacing :/

    2. BRR*

      Thank you for the offer but I have decided to pursue another opportunity. I wish you the best of luck in filling the chocolate teapot maker position.

    3. HR Manager*

      Thank you, but the manager sucks.

      Seriously – it sounds like you didn’t click with the manager, and that you don’t think she would best be able to lead you to do anything different or offer anything new.

      Do you care to give them any more feedback about your concerns? If not, then I think your response is fine. If you’re interested in getting the feedback on the manager to them, you can add that based on your meeting with Manager Jane, you don’t think the opportunity is right for you at the moment. While you remain excited about what the organization is doing, and would like to keep them in mind for future opportunities, what Manager Jane is looking for in the position isn’t aligned with what you are looking to do in your next position.”

  66. The Other Dawn*

    Well, I moved into my new office today. :) I started out in a cube when I got the new job, but they’re moving everyone around so now I have an office. When HR offered me the job, the woman waited until the end and said, “I hope it’s OK, but you’ll be in cubicle for a couple months until we get some people moved around.” She seemed nervous that I would be upset or something. (I was hired as a manager and almost all managers have an office here.) I told her that was fine; I’d been in a cube most of my career, manager or not, so who cares?. I hoped for an office, but figured she was just blowing smoke and it would take years to get an office. Nope, I’m typing this from my new office. Anyway…

    I had the opportunity to sit with one of my team members today to get a feel for how a certain process is done. She’s new also, so I figured it would be good to have her train me to kind of reinforce things and for me to see if she knows what she’s doing. It was actually enlightening. She does seem to know what she’s doing and gets the concept, but it uncovered some things that appear to have been going on for a long time and I think they’re wrong. I’m in banking and we are highly regulated. There are certain areas where you just can’t make a mistake and my area is one of them. So I’m a bit nervous about that. I have to go back and check the regs to see if my instinct is correct. I hope not….

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Or. . .if you can’t beat them, join them. New fitness routine to go with the new office?

          1. The Other Dawn*

            I’d love to, but things are hectic at the moment and I think it would take too much time to do the whole freshening up routine afterwards. I’d feel icky going back to work after that if I couldn’t wash up. Maybe if I stuck to a casual stroll on the treadmill that would be OK.

        2. The Other Dawn*

          No, it doesn’t. I can hear it through the walls. Luckily the gym isn’t used very often during the day so I can live with it. Actually, I need to bring in my small stereo from home. :)

  67. Folklorist*

    So, I’m a webcomics junkie and an inveterate procrastinator. (I’m a writer. It’s a common trait!) I got this really cute poster from a kickstarter campaign (go here and scroll down to the comments to see it: http://www.girlswithslingshots.com/comic/organizationgasm/). It’s an anti-procrastinating poster that really does help put me back on my game when I slip down the rabbithole of reading too many random articles and getting off track.

    I just started a new job and put it in my office. Most people think it’s cute and said things along the lines of, “I need that!” But does it call attention to a bad trait of mine and make me look weak? For what it’s worth, my new office is very laid-back and open to most things. They take the “as long as you get it in on time and the work is good, do whatever you want” philosophy. This works really well with my style, but I don’t want to be subconsciously making myself look bad to my bosses!

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Think of it this way: If someone has one of those motivational posters in their office, do you assume they have motivational problems?
      (No! You think they have bad taste in posters!)

      I think it’s cute and helpful, and I don’t think anyone will read into it much.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      I think people’s reactions are already telling you what you need to know – procrastination tendencies are (nearly) universal.

  68. Elizabeth West*

    Alison, did we time travel without realizing it? The post is dated 2105. We’re in the next century already!?

    If you have a TARDIS, you’ve been holding out on us!

    1. Audiophile*

      A meetup group I’m a part of was recently announcing an event for the summer and the announcement also used the year “2105”. It made me giggle because it’s a group full of geeks.

          1. EvilQueenRegina*

            My grandad wrote a cheque out for Mum once and because he was writing it on his birthday, he absent mindedly wrote his date of birth rather than the actual date. Mum didn’t notice it said 1927 until she tried to pay it in.

      2. Cath in Canada*

        I got an email from a contact at our primary funding agency just before the holidays wishing me “a very successful 2105”. I replied asking if there was something about the federal funding situation he wanted to tell me…

  69. MaryMary*

    Hi y’all. Today I want to discuss the professional hug. By that, I mean occasions where a hug has replaced the handshake as a greeting or goodbye in a professional setting. I am really not a fan, but it’s fairly common in my industry. There are a lot of people who have had client relationships for 30+ years, and those relationships have crossed into friendship. I understand why people greet their colleagues of 30+ years with a hug. I do not think these same people should greet someone they’ve never met before (me) with a hug. There are also organizations where people use a hug instead of a handshake.

    I just don’t think it’s professional. It feels too intimate to me. I also don’t like that it blurs the line on appropriate touching, making it so much more difficult to complain when someone really does cross a line. “I hug everyone! I’m a hugger!” “Yes, but you clap your male buddies on the back for five seconds, and you hug the young ladies tightly until they start to squirm.” Is anyone here in favor of the professional hug? If so, explain to me why! Why, or when, is hug better than a handshake?

    DISCLAIMER: I am actually pretty touchy-feely in my personal life,and I very much enjoy hugging my friends and family members. I also see nothing wrong with the occasional hug in the workplace, especially if something very very good or very very bad has happened. A death in the family? I am so sorry. HUG. The test results are back and it’s not cancer? That’s fantastic! HUG. You’re leaving our office to go on to bigger and better things? Good for you! HUG. I also believe in reading body language and social cues. We might have worked together for years and have had a terrific relationship, so I know you’d prefer a hearty handshake at your retirement party.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Oh, totally weird. I agree – I only hug people I’m actually friends with and happy to see.

      1. Ali*

        I can’t speak for everyone, but I know that one of the things I still appreciate about my current company is that we are laid back. I have hugged my coworkers, and even my supervisors. It’s more like a one arm around the shoulder or back, though, and not a frontal hug. And what’s funny is that I work in a company of mostly men, and when they greet me, THEY are the ones who initiate the hugging. But since the guys aren’t pigs or sexist or what have you, I don’t mind it. That’s just the culture we have. We do consider ourselves a strong team where we all have each others’ backs, so maybe that plays into it. Even with my current problems, I’ve never considered my environment toxic or cutthroat even though media can be really competitive.

        I did the one-arm hug with one of my mentors too, but I saved that until I’d been talking to him for some time. We so shook hands on our first in-person meeting. So yeah, I would never hug someone I’d never met. That seems crazy.

      2. Audiophile*

        I’m not much of a hugger either, but there’s an exec here who must feel close to me, because he’s hugged me on a few occasions. The first few times I felt a little awkward because I was worried about how it would be perceived for
        him, as I’m a female and he’s clearly an older male. But no one seemed to bat an eye at it.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I agree; it’s weird.

      Once at Exjob, the big boss El Presidente came for a visit and he gave me a great big hug. We got on quite well, but it still surprised me. I was probably the most lowly of all peons–and he gave no sign of any other kind of interest, just that he was friendly to me.

      I kind of miss him!

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      True story from yesterday. Post big event with gov agency that handles…ahem guarding the prez ahem…and two of the four people there initiated a hug with me and said “I love you and see you soon” as they were walking out the door. Not even kidding. Didn’t phase me because she hugged me the first time we met because of how we were meeting their needs. I’m not gonna initiate that hug but I’m not going to turn it down either. Especially with this group and in front of my boss because then he sees how much they think of me.

      I’m sure there is a line somewhere that I crossed a long time ago but it’s too late now. I’m a hugger, my whole office is. And actually most of the coworkers in other offices are too.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m going to put hugs in the same category as dirty jokes (a weird sentence if there ever was one). You can think someone will be fine with it, but at work probably don’t know for sure, and because it’s work there’s too much chance that they won’t feel comfortable/safe speaking up and telling you. Therefore, people really shouldn’t hug (or tell dirty jokes) in work settings, not unless they somehow know with certainty that the other person won’t mind.

      2. MaryMary*

        Now next time someone huugs me at work, I’m going to remember the dirty joke metaphor and snicker. Then I’ll be the creepy hugger. :-/

        This is a great metaphor! Because, like when presented with dirty joke, I know how to deal with it if it’s a coworker, but I’m kinda of at a loss when it’s a client.

    6. Sabrina*

      OMG no. No. No. NO. Really I don’t even want to hug my friends or family members, I do it because they expect me to. Unless your my cat or my husband, get away.

    7. AdAgencyChick*

      I haaaaaaate the professional hug. I’m not fond of being touched by people I don’t know REALLY well. Nevertheless, I have to put up with it, because clients seem to love it. Ugh.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Oh yes, this is SUCH an advertising thing. Caught me totally off-guard when I started going to client meetings (I used to work in an area that supported ad sales). Complete strangers, perfectly nice ones, wanted to hug me when they met me. I think it was because they had these long relationships with my salespeople and they felt awkward about hugging the salespeople but giving me a handshake. Advertising has its own set of social rules, and I’m convinced it’s because agency and ad sales folks spend so much time at the office, especially when they’re starting out, that everyone builds these weirdly intimate relationships. Has its pros and cons, no doubt!

    8. Apollo Warbucks*

      When my coworker told me she was pregnant we hugged and that is the one and only time I can think of hugging anyone in the office.

  70. brown cow*

    I’m really bored in my current career (communications). I’ve been in my field for 10 years and make $60k. I am looking into making a major career change (Occupational safety/osha). I’m currently looking at masters programs in my state. The one I’m most interested in is online and for working professionals.

    I’m planning to continue to work full time and pay for the costs as I go, even if it takes me longer. has anyone else been through a similar experience and cancel ride some advice for doing this? I’ve been out of school for 10 years and it makes me a little nervous to think about going back.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      As someone who often passed the boring hours at jobs I was over by fantasizing about career changes, I wouldn’t worry about the juggle of school and work. If you really want it, you’ll do it. (I did do an MBA in a part-time program, but I hadn’t been out of undergrad long). These are the questions I would ask: 1.) Is there a working path into the field so I can start now, or is a new degree the only way, 2.) Why do I want to do this, specifically?, 3.) What do I think this field entails, and what information do I have to support that?

      For 1, I’m thinking my company (eng/construction) has a safety department and marketing department. If you worked here in marketing, I’d say start talking to the safety guys to see if there was a way I could get involved in their work. That would also take care of 3. It might sound good on paper, but real exposure is worth a lot (you might already have this). #2 is to be sure it’s not just an anything-but-what-I’m-doing-now thing.

  71. Event Planner*

    I would like some advice. I was offered a job at Company A 2 weeks ago, which I accepted as I was laid off a few months ago. I pushed the start date to this coming Monday as it was my 3rd choice (out of 4) and I was still in the running for companies B (first choice) and C (second choice). During that time, Company B offered me the job. I got the former verbal offer this past Wednesday. I’m waiting on the offer letter, which I’m hoping comes today. I haven’t told Company A yet that I accepted Company B. I know I should honor Company A, but B is more money, better benefits, and working from home, which is perfect since I know we need to move in 2 years.

    That being said, should I wait until the offer letter to let A know I’m not coming? Or should I go for 2 weeks until the other one starts just in case there are any changes? Company B just laid off 4K people (6% of its employees) so I’m nervous. I don’t want to end up with no job. But I also feel like working for 2 weeks with the intention of leaving is even crappier. I’m still getting severance, so money is not a concern.

    Thoughts?

    1. MT*

      I feel this falls into the same category of a company rescinding a job offer either right before someone starts, or firing someone as soon as they start. Its a crappy situation. At the end of the day, you are there for person gain. If quitting after 2 weeks is better for you, then go ahead. At the end of the day, its just business, but if you do, remember not to judge companies who do the same.

      1. Event Planner*

        But I would only go as extra insurance. I have nothing in my background and do not do drugs, so that should be a breeze. I’m just a paranoid person. Having been laid off from 2 or my 3 jobs out of college, I don’t trust any company.

    2. Beezus*

      Yes, working for 2 weeks while intending to leave would be crappier – they’ll pay you for those 2 weeks, but you won’t be up to speed enough to actually contribute anything, and in the meantime the candidates they rejected to hire you will be slipping away. Wait until you have accepted a formal offer from Company B (wait for the written offer, if that’s how they do it), and then let Company A know as soon as possible. They might have a second choice candidate that they can call in and onboard quickly.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes. And depending on the job, someone may have invested enormous amounts of their own time in training you. I’d tell Company B that you have an offer from another company, that B is your first choice, and that you’re hoping to get their offer confirmed in writing so that you can feel comfortable turning down the other role.

    3. BRR*

      Working for two weeks then quitting is crapier. You are asking them to pay you for training which is their investment in you. I disagree with MT and Beezus. I think you should either stay with Company A or hold out for Company B (and that is where my advice ends). Just because companies do this (and not every company does this) doesn’t make it right for you to do this. If you work in a small field I would definitely not leave after two weeks because word might get around.

      1. MT*

        I agree that there are serious repercussions and its a super crappy thing to do. But sometimes you need to way the pro’s and con’s and make a business decision.

      2. Beezus*

        Same here. Remember, she’s not weighing whether or not to accept an offer; the boat has sailed on that. She’s accepted positions with both companies already. She already has the impact to her reputation no matter what she does – she has to rescind her acceptance with somebody. She was pretty clear that her mind was made up to take the Company B offer, so the best way to go about that, if she is going to do it, is to minimize the impact to Company A as much as possible (and, I should add, be extremely apologetic in the process, and of course, never apply for a job with Company A again.)

        I’ve never been in this position, but there are definitely situations where I would, regretfully, change my mind on an accepted offer if a better offer came through, and I think if the other position is clearly a far better career decision for her, it can be the right call, even if it’s crappy for Company B.

        2. BRR*

          Pulling out at the last minute and working two weeks are entirely different though. If you pull out I haven’t given you a cent.

    4. Event Planner*

      Thank you all for your advice. It was unfortunately just bad timing by about a week. I finally received an offer letter from Company B and let Company A know I was not coming. I know it’s a burned bridge, but I could not pass up the offer from Company B. With my husband’s schooling, we need to move in 2 years, and Company B is working from home so I can relocate without having to find a new job. Plus it was more money and better benefits. Company A was really just a fallback. Events can be a small world, and I know Company A would never employ me, but frankly their benefits are so bad I wouldn’t want to work there. If I had not been laid off, I wouldn’t have even applied.

  72. Mimmy*

    Epi’s post regarding her driving situation made me think of a question of my own. I don’t like to hijack others’ threads, so I thought I’d start my own.

    I’ve talked here many times before about my career options and, sometimes, the fact that I don’t drive due to a vision impairment. I’ve been trying to get back into the working world in a professional-level position, but because of the driving piece, it’s been an uphill battle. Yes, I am well-aware of an employer’s ADA obligations, but I sheepishly admit that I’m not assertive enough to get past the barriers. I’ve been stuck for awhile and I’ve GOT to get unstuck.

    My target employers are generally nonprofits and higher education settings. In the aforementioned thread, Alison said that nonprofit jobs rarely require driving; if they do, it’s not an “essential function” of the job. But…..what ARE those jobs?? I’ll admit that I tend to live in a bubble, so my perception of non-driving jobs are limited to clerical and service jobs (mailroom, filing, maybe an office assistant). I’m sure it goes well beyond that…I just have to dig deep.

    I’ve talked about some of my ideas here before….I just need to stretch my imagination a bit and stop being so chicken to ask for help IRL. I thought I had a really good head start last year, but it hasn’t gone quite as I’d hoped. Maybe my expectations are skewed too.

    Annnnd as per usual, what was intended to be a question turned into a ramble, lol.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’d look through Idealist.org to get a better sense of what nonprofit jobs can entail. But nonprofits hire all the same roles as for-profits: accountants, admins, IT people, managers, lobbyists, communications staff, data entry folks, editors, writers, researchers, marketers — all the same jobs you’d see anywhere else. But then on top of that, they also have a bunch of additional roles like fundraisers, grant writers, community organizers, campaigners, and so forth. In other words, it’s all the jobs you’d see anywhere else, PLUS more. So there are loads of options.

    2. Samantha*

      I don’t know about this “nonprofit jobs rarely require driving” thing. My whole career has been in the nonprofit industry and my current job and last job in particular have required fair amounts of driving. I think it depends more on your position that nonprofit or for profit. Generally folks who work in HR, accounting, and administrative assistant positions don’t do a whole lot of driving. On the other hand, people like myself who work on the programs/services side and those in development tasked with raising money for the organization, can be required to drive frequently.

    3. ProductiveDyslexic*

      I’ve managed to never have to drive for work, having been in higher ed and about to go into a non-profit. The infrequent travel I’ve done has been from one university city to another, and for this type of travel I’ve always managed to take a plane, train, or get a lift depending on the distance.

      I make a point of asking about driving at interviews, and generally get two types of response. The first is that “yes, obviously we expect everyone to drive because it’s a social norm, are you some kind of non-driving weirdo?” and the second is that “no, your other skills are far more important” :)

      1. anonintheuk*

        I have never learnt to drive, because I have what my doctor thinks is Meniere’s disease, and my physio thinks is an unstable vertebra in my neck – that is, I randomly get dizzy and fall over. This is easy enough to stop when it starts, but I imagine if I had a licence the DVLA would be contemplating taking it away.

        I am always very clear in interviews and with recruiters that I do not drive, and that unless there is some medical miracle, I will not be learning to drive either. This generally makes them ponder whether they DO actually need someone with a licence at all.

  73. Natalie*

    I have had a helluva week.

    We were closed Monday for MLK, and it’s also the first week of the semester so I had a short, extra busy week already. On Tuesday, my boss’s boss’s boss invited me to visit our regional Austin on the other half of the country, that day. And then I found out that my boss had just put in her 2 weeks, so we are now *even more* understaffed than we were before.

    I ended up flying to Austin Wednesday morning, being there for 23.75 hours (during which it rained the entire time) and getting back home yesterday afternoon just in time for my first class at 5:00 pm. I’m so flipping discombobulated.

    At least it’s finally sinking in that today is Friday. Also, my accounting professor looks and sounds a little like Sam Waterston, so that’s fun.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      Jack McCoy! <3

      I once had a uni lecturer who looked like the lead singing, Michael Stipe from REM.

  74. CMS*

    So I just got an e-mail back from a potential job, asking me to come in for another round of interviews this Thursday! I just had my first interview on Wednesday with the company, which went well. They then called my references yesterday and the hiring person e-mailed me today to come in on Thursday. She said that she would contact me next week, instead she e-mails me today!

    I think it’s a good sign that either they really want me, or I’m one of the top candidates for the job and they need the other interview to make a decision. I’m nervous, but excited! I’m soooo ready to get out of retail and the current place I’m at (where the hiring manager won’t let me learn any new skills or be promoted because she’s a jerk; she flat-out said that she only promotes people “who have potential,” which is such a backhanded comment). So this place would be a good fit for me!

    Fingers crossed!

  75. Ilf*

    I could use some advice about running and participating in meetings.
    I’m part of this big software implementation project. I am not the one who runs the meetings, and in fact quite often no one really runs them. It does not help that it’s kind of part of the company culture that people interrupt and talk over each other. So, I have something to say, that is completely on point, very relevant to what is being discussed, and that can potentially change the course of the discussion. Sometimes people go on and on for many minutes, on the wrong track, because they don’t understand the problem, the concepts, and the proposed solutions. The consultants don’t help, because they’re not necessarily looking for clarity before confirming a point, and end up confirming all kinds of misconceptions. I can’t get a word in if I don’t interrupt somebody, because if I wait for the speaker to finish his point, someone else would have jumped in before that could have happened. The whole situation is even worse when the meetings are over the phone. The loudest speaks the most.
    All this interrupting is making the meetings feel very adversarial sometimes, and I think it strains the relations between people to some extent, besides being very inefficient. I am wondering what I can do about this whole thing, from my position.
    The context is: I am a core team member, I have some clout with other more powerful core team members, but by no means with everyone, and I think I am gaining some traction with one of the project managers (does the fact that there are two project managers speak to the dysfunction?), but I don’t really have the power to set up ground rules for everyone.

    1. Malissa*

      Take notes and send questions to the consultants after the meeting. Copy everybody involved.
      Or wait until everybody stops talking and take the conversation back to the point.”I know we got away from X, but I would like to point out if we handle X this way it’ll be much easier in the end.”

      1. Ilf*

        I could do some of that. But I cannot really offer a solution. I can only point how the solution offered so far is inadequate, and give some instances in which it will not work.
        It feels a bit wrong to send an email pointing out the problems in what was discussed when I have been in the meeting with them.
        Waiting until everyone stops talking would work if that would actually happen. Doesn’t happen much.

    2. Sparrow*

      Wow, it’s crazy to me that no one is in charge of these meetings. In my experience, it would be the responsibility of the project manager to run the meeting. Are you able to work with one or both of them prior to the meeting to try and come up with an agenda for these meetings?

      1. Ilf*

        With one of them I could try. I am not sure that the agenda is the problem though, definitely not the only problem. I say this because while shouting over each other, they stick more or less to the agenda.
        To me personally a huge part of the problem is vagueness in the statements. Another part of the problem is lack of understanding of the subject. I realize that’s not related with the talking over each other, at least not at first sight. I guess I feel if people would understand the subject better, they would not be so desperate to ask each their own questions, and make their own statements, and would not find everyone else’s questions and statements inadequate. Not sure it makes sense…

    3. HR Manager*

      Have a chat with some of the other core team members who may be in a position to have some influence and ask them “Hey, do you feel like our meetings aren’t as productive as they should be?” If people agree, get together and decide on setting some grounds rules that include:

      1) Have a clear agenda and purpose for each meeting, and allotted time for each topic
      2) If there are clear questions that needs answers, make sure these are there
      3) Invite all your key stakeholders
      4) Have a strong facilitator (usually meeting leader) to bring people back on-track and on-topic, or write derailers down on a a “parking lot” for future discussion (separate meeting? next meeting?)
      5) Have clear meeting notes, action items, and who is responsible for what sent out after the meeting with clear follow-up guidelines too

  76. Gwen*

    I’d love advice for working towards a promotion when there isn’t currently a position above me. I work on a small marketing team at a nonprofit…I am the copywriter, but before I was here, there WAS no copywriter. My goal would be to be promoted to a manager-level position and have a larger role in determining content strategy, but I’m not totally sure how to go about it/how likely it would be that could happen since there isn’t someone in that role currently. (I do plan to tell my manager about my goals and get her feedback, but I guess I’d love to hear success stories if anyone’s managed to do this!)

    1. brownblack*

      Just wondering if there’s a chance they could add more responsibilities and more pay to your current job, without having to figure out what separate position “above you” you might be qualified for. I’m just someone’s assistant and there’s no obvious place for me to go (other than to take my boss’s job, but I don’t know how likely that is.) However, I keep getting new responsibilities etc, and my pay has already been increased after less than a year.

  77. sprinkles!*

    Im in an interesting predicament. I have been internally job searching for about the past year and have gotten very close but still have not gotten a new job. I’ve also been looking casual e externally as well. A few weeks ago I applied for an external position with a regional financial institution. I am currently working for a healthcare company. Both my current role and the potential role are in the marketing field.

    My current company is decent but my dept is very dysfunctional with constant reorgs. I’ve tried but can’t seem to get out of my current dept for whatever reason.

    The potential company has a lot of pros but at this point I don’t have any idea of the salary, which is very important to me. Also, the company received some bad press lately due to some legal issues. It’s my understanding that there are accusations against the financial institution they deliberately did not disclose some financial troubles a few years back to investors and now there are lawsuits. The people I’ve interviewed with have been very transparent and upfront about the recent struggles, without me having to ask.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      That would be important to me that people be upfront, bonus points for not making me ask.
      There is so much new regulation out there that missing some key point is totally possible.
      If you can try to read up on the particulars of what happened. Watch how the company responds each step of the way. Let that factor in to your decision.

  78. GigglyPuff*

    I started my new archives job last week, and it’s great! I have my own office with a window (so fancy!). It’s on the third floor, so I’ve started taking stairs, there’s no tempting candy within easy access, and it’s downtown in government so few restaurants around, so I’ve already started bringing healthy lunches. :)
    So excited, and seems I’m being slowly eased into my job duties, and a lot of overlap of another position they filled recently but the person doesn’t start until Feb, so I’m doing other basic things that are helping me get a sense of what collections are in the archives. But going over my duties, makes me excited cause it’s varied, but everything I’ve always wanted to do!
    So far so good, only downside is the guilt over leaving my dog alone all day. I only put her in a crate for the first few days, but she scraped her nose raw and I felt so bad, made it so she could stay in the kitchen, and seems to be better. But it’s sooo wonderful to have my own place again.

  79. A. D. Kay*

    Managers and HR people, how would you feel about a recruiter who checks references by using an automated online survey form, instead of a phone call?

    I had to fill out an online form that had my references’ work emails as required fields. I didn’t dig giving out work addresses of former managers, so I entered phony place holders. Turned out to be a good move on my part, because when I completed the form, the site sent an automated email with my name appended, asking the recipients to fill out an online survey form “as soon as possible”! I was not informed about the automated email, nor that it would contain boilerplate text with my signature on it. I would have been mortified if my former managers had gotten the email. They are doing me a big favor–I’m not going to tell them to fill out a damn form as soon as possible! A former team lead tried filling out the form, and quit in disgust because the user interface was so poorly designed. He wrote me a reference letter instead. He told me, “Your recruiter needs to get off her butt and get on the phone!” I lol’ed.

    1. HR Manager*

      That’s weird. I’ve used email with questions as a last resort, often with overseas references, but never as a standard practice. That is one area where I think automation doesn’t work.

  80. I have a car name*

    So, I decided to change careers and join the wonderful world of HR. After making the decision and applying to position, I’ve landed my first HR role as a HR Clerk. Yay!
    Now, I have a degree in a completely unrelated field (mass communications) but I was wondering if is worth going to get a masters degree in HR management or should I just gain experience and the maybe get certification? I’m really trying to see if grad school would be the best course for me since I’m changing Industries. Any HR folks can chime in?

    1. Ali*

      That’s awesome! I hope you come back and talk more about your job as you adjust. My degree is in communications too and I’ve considered HR, but I worry there’s not a lot of opportunities overall to get a job and start in the field.

      One of my friends wants a master’s in HR at some point and changed her major 2-3 times in college before settling on HR. (She was really indecisive, but it seems she’s happy with what she finally chose.)

      Good luck!

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      Hmm. It might worth it to look at either an AA or 2nd bachelor’s in HR before the master’s. There might be a lot of background that you don’t have that would make the master’s more difficult than necessary. A cert would be a good place to start though.

    3. HR Manager*

      My personal opinion (life-long HR) is that master’s aren’t helpful until you know what area of HR you want to be in. It can be helpful for someone who maybe wants to focus on training or organizational development, for example. If you want to be a business partner, or a senior HR exec, I think an MBA is more helpful than an HR degree. Do the master’s if you want to learn about HR, but not many HR positions require a master’s or even a dedicated bachelor’s (HR degrees are still somewhat new). I have a psych degree (I see a lot of HR folks with this), but I’ve seen folks with degrees in business/management, communications, history, all sorts – even legal degrees (JDs).

      In my opinion – key skills – communication written and verbal, business acumen, and problem-solving, good listening, consultative approach and relationship building (EQ!). What’s ‘hot’ – technology savvy and and global perspective. Other important skills/exp – understanding compliance and legal obligations, and influence and negotiation.

      1. I have a car name*

        Thank you for your response! What would you think the best way to go about gaining these skills? And what about jobs that require degrees in either business administration or hr management?

      2. I have a car name*

        And the career trajectory I am leaning towards is HR manager and learning about general HR responsibilities.

  81. Gandalf the Nude*

    (Obligatory long-time reader, first time commenter.)

    I’m a fairly new HR person in a small-ish company. I just found out that we’ll be letting someone in our small home office go later this afternoon. I’ve been asked to be available as a neutral party to help this person pack up their personal belongings when all’s said and done. This person can be really mercurial (huge part of why they’re being terminated), and there’s a good change they’ll make a lot of snide comments and ask loaded questions and generally make the process even more uncomfortable than it already is.

    So, my question is: do you folks have any suggestions for some good, neutral responses or even condolences when things get awkward?

    1. Natalie*

      If they’re just making snide comments to themself, I would plain not respond at all. It will be awkward, no doubt, but just stay silent and observe. Water off of a duck’s back.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I think it’s ok to ackowledge the awkwardness and even empathize. “Mmmhmmm.” “Yeah…I understand.” “mmmhmmm” “I’m sure you understand I really can’t talk about this.”

    3. Graciosa*

      “I’m sorry you feel that way.”

      “I’m sorry you formed that impression – I don’t believe it was what was intended.”

      “I’m sorry that’s how it came across to you.”

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, how uncomfortable. I guess I’d just be as calm and blank-faced as possible. I think Natalie has a good point about the muttering comments; there is no need to acknowledge them.

      Also, I love your screen name–it made me giggle.

    5. HR Manager*

      Don’t answer any questions you’re not comfortable answering. Just nod and acknowledge the person is upset and that this is a difficult situation. I’d avoid saying “I’m sorry” if only because it somewhat implies that the company did something wrong. If the person is asking questions, just say “Do we have your contact information? I’m happy to ask and get back to you with the answers?”

      1. Graciosa*

        I agree about just “I’m sorry” but “I’m sorry you feel that way” doesn’t actually admit anything. You’re right that you do need to watch the wording.

  82. Jen*

    Ended up with two interviews this week, one in person and one phone interview. The in person one sucked, sucked, sucked. They obviously hadn’t read my resume – they knew the name of the company, but had no idea I was a subcontract at another place or the type of work I did. They even made up in their own minds what I *did* do at my current job and it was wrong! ::face palm:: Then was criticized that I don’t do what they thought (instead of mass producing chocolate tea pots, I research how to make tea pots, hee), and how I got to listen to how superior their work was to the type I do (uh, yeah, no). And of course some obligatory oddball questions.

    The phone interview was probably one of the best interviews I’ve ever had (phone or in person)! It was just with the HR person at this point, doing preliminary interviews to help decide who to call back for in person interviews, but she did a great job, and even if I don’t get the job I’m glad to have had such an interview, it was such a nice change of pace! Of course I really really really want the job and hoping like crazy to get a call for an in person interview, unfortunately it’ll be a few weeks she said for the calls to go out for those, so the waiting is gonna kill me.

      1. Jen*

        I guess what it boils down to is that it was how an interview should go, IMO, and most of the ones I’ve had aren’t like that. The questions were relevant to the position for one (no “if you were a muppet which one would you be?” or “what church do you go to?”). She asked questions clarifying what I already had in my resume – and it was obvious by some that he had actually read it (e.g. exactly which regulatory protocols do I use for doing XYZ). And took the time to explain a bit more about the what the job entails that either wasn’t in the posting or not very clear, and followed up asking if I was ok with those things (e.g. working occasional holidays). She came across as very personable and easy to talk to, it flowed more like a conversation back and forth, and went ahead and talked about what the rest of the process would entail if I went forward.

        Of course, I seem to rarely get a first interview (phone or in person) with an HR person, usually its with the people I’d be working with, so that probably makes a bit of difference.

        1. voluptuousfire*

          Ah, that sounds lovely. :) I seem to be on a particular streak of phone screens where I have to specifically ask for more details about the role, which I always see as a bad sign. I would think that would be something the interviewer would volunteer without having to really ask.

          I had a phone screen last week for a company that I was really excited to have the chance to speak with but the phone screen was just not good. The conversation didn’t flow, they were more interested in what I could do for them and when it was turn to ask my questions, she asked “do you have any other questions?” after everything I asked. It wasn’t a conversation, it was an interrogation. :( When a phone screen is efficient, flows well and you learn about the company and the role, it’s always a pleasure.

    2. Lady Bug*

      I hate when the interviewer doesn’t read your resume. I have 20 years of experience on my resume and am almost 40 years old, yet last week an interviewer asked if I lived at home with my parents! Then asked what I did during the fifteen years between graduating HS and getting my degree. Seriously, at least look at the dates!

  83. American Abroad*

    I’m trying to decide whether to apply to a job and I was hoping you all could help. I have been at my current job for 2.5 years and have told my boss I’ll be leaving in June. I then have a six-week holiday booked in another country (the perks of being married to a teacher) and was intending to start job searching when I came back to the country of my residence (as my name states, I’m an American living abroad) in the middle of August.

    The issue is, I just saw a job posting that seems to be right up my alley. Would it be OK to apply and state in my cover letter that I won’t be available until August? Should I assume that they want the position filled ASAP and not apply? Or is it OK to send an email asking them what their timeline is? I really don’t want to leave my current job as I would be burning a bridge by leaving so early, and I have a very good rapport with my current boss and would like a strong recommendation from her. Plus, the whole six week vacation this summer. Any thoughts??

    1. Jen*

      I say it can’t hurt to at least inquire about the timeline – some places take months to fill a position. And really what do you have to loose by asking? Same thing if you can’t find out a timeline, go ahead apply, but make it clear on your cover letter/app when you would be available to start. If they can’t wait that long you just won’t be considered for it – which you won’t be anyways if you don’t apply!

  84. Just K*

    I’m hoping some of you nonprofit gurus can give me some friendly advice! I’ve been out of college for 2 years and working in the staffing industry. However, I have a BA in Music, and hoped to get into arts nonprofit after graduation. Getting married soon after finishing college meant that I took the first thing that came my way that paid well, and now I feel like I’m stuck. I don’t have any grant writing experience, and can’t seem to find somewhere to get that, even for free. All the positions in the arts nonprofit world that I’ve seen that I would love to do require previous fundraising and/or grant writing experience. What’s the best way to try to break into this field?

    1. BRR*

      My first job was in the arts field doing fundraising. It sounds like you just haven’t found the right posting yet. There are definitely ones that don’t require grant writing experiencing. If they’re lower level you’re fine applying with just office experience and not fundraising experience. Arts organizations typically have small staffs so there are few available positions.

    2. MsM*

      How wide a net are you casting with your search? There are lots of small nonprofits that would be happy to have someone write grants for them, or at least do some prospect research: they’re just not all (or even mostly) going to be in the arts. Go to networking events, ask friends and family where they volunteer, use your school’s alumni network and any career services they have for graduates, try to set up informational interviews with people who have the jobs you want someday…basically just talk to as many people as possible. Eventually someone will know someone who can put you on the right track. (And it’s good practice for cultivating major donors.)

      Also, speaking as someone who’s done development work with arts organizations and was initially surprised how similar the experience was to other positions I’d had, make sure you’re genuinely interested in fundraising for its own sake, and make sure you communicate that in your applications and interviews. Entry-level employees sometimes try to use development departments as a way of getting access to the parts of the organization they really want to be involved with, and I think arts orgs are particularly wary of that.

  85. BCI*

    Talking about money is uncomfortable for me, but shouldn’t be if I’m talking about salary with an HR professional. Anyway, I currently make $21/hour, which usually comes to $50,000 annually with overtime. When asked for my current rate, how should I phrase it? Do I even need to disclose my current rate? Should I instead answer with the salary that I’m looking for?

    1. Beezus*

      If you must disclose salary history, phrase it either way, just clarify how you’re calculating, so if they call to verify salary history, they’ll be able to compare apples to apples with your statement and won’t assume you lied if it doesn’t match up.

      But try not to tell them, it’s not relevant to how much they need to pay you for the job with their company, and it doesn’t usually put you in the best negotiating position. There are actually quite a few helpful articles here on this topic – if I provide links, my reply will go into moderation, but if you go to the search bar on the upper right side of the page and search “salary history”, you’ll find lots of good stuff.

  86. Sheila*

    Every one of my goals for this year includes a training component. I love training, and I’m reasonably good at it, but I could really use some suggestions of resources. I design the classes and have no formal training in that. I have ready access to a good library and funds for seminars/conferences – I just want to find the right ones.

  87. Bend & Snap*

    Until a few months, ago, I worked closely with someone internally who is not known for being easy to work with. She bad mouthed people indiscriminately, called my boss several times a week to complain about me, etc. Very toxic relationship that could really be chalked up to incompatible personalities.

    We aren’t working together AS CLOSELY but I still have to deal with her–and I just found out that she has been bad mouthing me to anyone who will listen. A couple of people pulled me aside and told me what this person had told them and said, “Everyone knows it’s not you.”

    BUT I am worried about my reputation and have no idea how to do damage control. What would you do in my shoes?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Everyone DOES know it’s not you, honest! I am agreeing with fposte. Do nothing. Let her unravel herself in her own way. She does not need help unraveling.

      Remember worrying about your reputation is misplaced worry. If you are doing good work, your reputation will fall in line with that. Just do good work.

    3. Carrie in Scotland*

      Bend & Snap, that is crap.

      I quite agree – anyone who does know you and your work will know it’s not you.

  88. Ruth (UK)*

    Sooo, I’m a bit late but if anyone reads this far, I’ve been wondering…

    A friend of mine in another city is currently job hunting (for entry level admin roles). He’s in a very similar situation to the one I was in about a year ago; though he’s a university graduate, his only work experience is in retail. He’s been a supervisor in retail jobs and has been working most of the time since he graduated (over 4 years ago) but generally doesn’t hear back from any jobs he applies for outside of retail. As for his CV/cover letter, I’m not great at knowing about that, but I don’t think it is poor by any means. When he has had interviews, he has reported the same thing that happened to me a few times – they ask about your previous office experience and then get really ‘oh…’ when they realise all your past jobs were retail (because they apparently didn’t read the CV?)

    QUESTION: So, as someone hiring for an *entry level* admin role, how much of a turn off is it when a candidate has no previous office experience (but does have a work history in other jobs like retail, and a degree). Like a definite ‘no’ or does it just harm their chances a bit? Or if it’s entry level, does it not matter? (does it help if they have a good degree?).

    Also, I actually asked my boss about this because she hired me despite me not having any previous office work experience (I was recommended by a friend who was already working at the company). My boss is pretty good at being frank about stuff and basically said that without the recommendation, my CV would probably have not stood out enough that I’d have otherwise been asked for an interview (at least partly due to my lack of office work experience). However, I had come across very well in the interview (I think I generally come across quite friendly etc and my job involves a lot of answering the phone) and the recommendation helped. She said at the time I was hired, I was considered a bit of a ‘wild card’ due to my previous jobs all being retail, but she doesn’t regret the decision [phew]. (ps. I told her why I was asking – that I was curious due to a job search of a friend who is job hunting in another city).

    Also any suggestions of how my friend could get past this obstacle? Volunteering is a difficult option because he’s struggling to find volunteer work that would actually count as office experience. Also, money is tight and working part time is a difficult issue as his employer is unwilling to let him cut down his hours. (personally, for many reasons I actually think he needs to quit the hell out of his current job which is terrible for reasons that would take me too long to try and type).

    Thanks for any replies from anyone who gets down this far in the entry thread :D

    1. fposte*

      I would say it’s not that it’s a turnoff, it’s that he’s competing with people who do have that experience. As your hiring shows, a big way to get past that is networking. Volunteering can help a little, but as you say, it’s not always easy to find an office volunteer position, especially if you have no office experience. But I’d suggest he tell everybody he knows that he’s looking for an office job and to please keep their eyes open for somewhere he’d be a good fit.

    2. HAnon*

      I’d have him talk to a recruiter who can do the following:
      -look over his resume and help him make changes that would make him a more attractive candidate
      -tell him what skills he needs to increase in order to be more marketable
      -help him begin to market himself to the right companies
      -help him get a foot in the door

      I think in looking for entry level positions especially, it can be really helpful to know someone who is either working at the company already, or a recruiter/temp agency/placement firm that has a good working relationship with different employers. As he gains experience he will have an easier time letting his merits speak for him, but it’s good to have someone watching out for positions for you.

      Also, many customer service jobs don’t require a lot of prior experience in the field, and his experience in retail working with people might be an asset. Help him frame his experience in ways that will apply to the jobs he’s applying for…and good luck to him :)

    3. Carrie in Scotland*

      The way I got out of retail was to apply for jobs that were a mish-mash – I ended up working in libraries for my local council…but then one of my many jobs in retail was in a bookshop. From libraries I eventually got someone to take a chance on me in a (what was to be very) dysfunctional organisation.

      Perhaps your friend could look for library, museum, customer facing roles within local council/govt, which would get him out of retail but the main component of which is still working with the public and then gaining some admin as a part of these roles? Or in a tourist information centre?

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        Thanks for the suggestion, Carrie. I actually think he’d love that kind of job (I know that one of the jobs he’s applied for was in a museum). Library jobs are a bit hard to come by though from what I’ve heard (I have 2 friends who have worked a lot in libraries and it seems hard to initially get into even at a basic level. However, both of these people have been working in academic libraries [ie. university libraries] so that might be different…).

        1. GigglyPuff*

          It’s mostly difficult if you’re looking for a full-time permanent job, doing things beyond basic duties. Many library people end up taking part-time entry level after a degree. So while he might be competing against them, he might be more attractive since they would possibly jump ship for a better job. I’d say try historical societies, museums, public/academic libraries, archives, historical sites that kind of thing. And while it might not be doable for him, bigger universities that have libraries open 24/7 tend to have turnover in the night shifts.

        2. Carrie in Scotland*

          My jobs in libraries were part time (19 and 25 hours) and fixed term (for up to 52 weeks), but it was pretty easy to get another contract once your old one was up – although you did have to jump through hoops.

    4. Ruth (UK)*

      Thank you fposte and HAnon for your replies. It’s helpful and encouraging to hear it’s not a total turnoff (and of course I know from my own experience it IS possible to find a job without the experience, just much harder).

      I think this might be a case where I start to feel overly responsible for another person’s problems (oops) but this is a very close friend of mine with whom I have a long history, and I really wish I could help him (especially as I’ve felt stuck in a very similar situation in the past). As he lives in a city that’s pretty far away from me and I have no strong connections myself (being just an entry level office admin-y person) I can only help by potentially offering advice when we talk (and I’ve been unsure what to advise…). So any extra input from an outside view is appreciated.

    5. CA Admin*

      It really depends on the company–my current company makes a habit of hiring new grads with minimal experience as the Receptionist and then letting them move up as they get experience. They like training their own people and hire more for personality fit and intelligence than experience.

      That being said, it did take me two years (!) to find this company when I wanted to switch out of retail. I graduated during the recession and couldn’t find anything “professional” until this company was willing to give me a shot.

      What worked for me:
      * Find a (good) staffing agency and work with them to find you interviews/open positions. I had a great recruiter that didn’t give up on me, even after 2 years of looking. She knew my wants and limitations and kept me in the back of her mind of openings that would be a good fit.
      * Keep your resume updated. Retail isn’t office work, but there are some skills that transfer over (customer service, attitude, responsiveness), so you want to highlight what you do have.
      * Stay positive while you search–there is something out there, it just may take a while.
      * Be prepared to look for a long time. It may happen over night, it may take 2 years, but something will come up that’s appropriate for him. Staying focused and positive while you search is hard, but getting discouraged definitely comes across in interviews.

      Best of luck to your friend!

    6. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

      I made a similar leap– went from mostly retail to receptionist to admin. I think for entry-level admin roles, they’re much more concerned about skills than experience. So if he knows Microsoft Office inside and out (how to do mail merges, common formulas in Excel, that sort of thing) and perhaps a smattering of Adobe products (Acrobat and Photoshop at the minimum), can learn new software quickly (because every industry has specific software), knows office equipment (can he send a fax? change the toner in a copier? figure out how to use the postal meter?), knows his way around the internet and maybe has some basic HTML skills, can write coherently, and has great customer service credentials (which he should with a retail job), he should be able to find a job somewhere. Bonus if he has editing/proofing skills, or basic accounting.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        Hmm I don’t know the details of his skills in those areas (though I am sure he is fairly computer literate etc). Perhaps he should be more specific in his job applications about those skills.

        Also, speaking of faxes, since you mentioned ‘can he send a fax’ – I’m going to go ahead and admit I considered faxes basically ‘old’ technology until I got my current job and discovered we fax stuff… a lot!

        (also, I super love faxing things! I’m not sure why but it’s about 100 times more fun than sending emails. I’d get a fax machine at home if I had somewhere to put it and could actually think of a legit reason to use it… I think perhaps I have attached some sort of novelty value to it for no reason… I was asked to day how/why I am so excited by everything… oooh, not to go on TOO much of a tangent here but you know what else is really fun? Franking the post! I kind of love franking post. It makes a sound like this: nnnggtt nyerrrr!! I’ll stop typing now I promise…).

    7. voluptuousfire*

      He may want to look into customer service roles in smaller companies or start ups. Start ups love recent college grads and his background in retail makes him prime for a CSR type role. Another suggestion would be to look for some sort of coordinator role within a professional organization that requires membership.

  89. Rebecca*

    I read with great interest the comments about task oriented people vs relationship oriented people. I am definitely 100% task oriented, and reading the post and comments really helped to shed light on why I get frustrated sometimes at work. My personality isn’t likely to change any time soon, but now I have a tool to use when I start to feel frustrated. Is the person causing my frustration relationship oriented? How does that affect the current issue at hand? How can I meet this person halfway and work through the issue so we’re both on board?

    I’m really glad this was posted. What an eye opener.

    1. Sascha*

      Me too, I’m a task oriented person as well. A lot of my problem comes from just making myself implement the good advice – I know what I should do, I just don’t want to do it!

    2. voluptuousfire*

      I’m definitely task oriented and would love to find this discussion. Was it in this thread or in another?

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Found it! I’m going to copy that into a Word doc to save it for easy access. After reading the above, it really put into perspective why my last job didn’t work out. I worked for a company that at their essence was all about relationship building and my task oriented personality clashed with how they handled things. Something always seemed disconnected in the role and I never figured out why. Now it makes sense!

  90. Anonforthis*

    I’m a graphic designer with a strong print background, but I really want to get more into digital/web/mobile/apps and even the programming side of things. I learned the basics of HTML and CSS through a class I took last year, and I’ve used the program Hype (tumult) to create some one-off landing pages, but I don’t feel comfortable enough with my skills to market myself as a true back-end designer or developer. I’d still like to be somewhat involved in the design aspect (actually that’s not essential, just a preference), but to a much lesser degree than I am now. Kind of like being a developer who actually has a design background so I could pull that out on occasion if I needed to help provide a solution. What kinds of languages should I be looking at, and what do employers want to see? What kind of experience and education will I need to get there? I have a BA in Graphic Design and about 5 years work experience in my field.

    For further background, I feel like I’ve reached the ceiling for my current career path ($ wise in my area) and I want to move into a more profitable, more flexible job (more flextime or work from home options on occasion), and that seems to be a field where that is more possible…let me know if I’m mistaken or barking up the wrong tree.

    Thanks!

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      You are not mistaken, do it.

      I can’t answer your more technical questions but can I please confirm and emphasize that the dual power of strong print background with web design ability is killer.

      They are actually two very different mindsets and each field seems to attract very different people. It is *hard* to find a designer who can think both ways and thereby coordinate what’s in print with what’s online and vice versa. I’m a print marketer + online marketer and have one person who can think both ways, my art director. She definitely struggles to get both parts of her team on the same page (as it were, heh).

      I’m shocked by how many young art graduates we interview who don’t have any kind of solid web design experience or training. I’m also shocked by how many young “web designers” are terrible designers, no eye, no eye, no eye.

      So! Do it!

      Excellent web designers are a the top of the $$ pile. Add that to your print and go off and get a job for some fabulous brand doing fabulous work. (This assuming you have an eye, please have an eye. :) )

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It sounds like you should focus on CSS and theming, and theming will depend somewhat on the content management system. WordPress and Drupal are popular, so they might be good places to start, especially if you don’t have a programming background. I’d say familiarize yourself with one or both of those and start playing around with them. By the way, you’ll probably be doing front-end development, designing the part that people see, more than back-end development, which is more about the apps, programming, and data handling. See my next post for a link once it’s unmoderated.

      There are plenty of “web designers” who will mock something up in Photoshop in such a way that it’s a nightmare to build. By learning HTML and CSS, you already know what would need to be done to make a web site, and so as Wakeen’s Teapots Ltd. indicated, you’re way ahead of that game now. If you can actually put together things you can design well, you’ll be in very high demand.

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        There are plenty of “web designers” who will mock something up in Photoshop in such a way that it’s a nightmare to build.

        Our web programming team has to deal with this from another division. It leads to awfullness and the worst part is, the other division sells the concept to the Large Client from the original design (which cannot be executed!) and …. really, you can fill in the blanks for everything that happens next.

        Not my problem other than I’m the listening ear for the programmers when they have to vent about the stupidity and waste of time in that process.

        Those people are not web designers. They are print designers who think they can design web which they cannot.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Exactly! When our client hired this design firm, yes, their designs were great, but we would constantly be going back and forth with our client on matching the fonts and colors and exact layout that the design firm had mocked up, because all we had was a damn image to work with!

          Now that we have our design team doing this, first they wireframe it to get the general functionality and layout right, then they actually mock it up in HTML, and we already have the exact correct fonts and colors and spacing. If they ask for a bigger font or different color, we can update it with another web font or hex color code IN the HTML.

  91. What Should I Wear?*

    Interview attire question:

    Next week, I’m going in for a second interview for a program associate role with a mid-sized nonprofit. At my first interview, I wore a super-traditional black pant suit. I’m wondering what to wear for a second interview.

    I don’t recall exactly what my interviewers wore, but not suits – I think they were both in trousers and blazers. For the second interview, I will be meeting with the hiring manager and two consultants (one of whom is the founder of the program I’d be working on, and another is a former director of the program).

    My impression of the environment is that it’s relatively casual but sortof conservative (i.e., not style-focused, more workmanlike).

    I’d really like to wear a black or navy wrap dress (I’ll link in a comment), because it’s what I feel most comfortable and confident in. But it’s probably a little too casual. What do you think? What other suggestions do you have?

    1. What Should I Wear?*

      Here’s the dress I’d love to wear, in navy: https://closet.gwynniebee.com/products/three-dots-hi-lo-wrap-dress-in-black

      (It’s not as low-cut on me, but I do wear it with a camisole underneath because I’m paranoid about these things. In any case, trust me that the chest area is not a problem – my question is more about the general style/level of formality).

      One more note that might be relevant: The hiring manager was also in the first interview (i.e. it’s not the first time I’m meeting him).

      1. Felicia*

        I have that dress! I personally wouldn’t wear it to an interview, though I could wear it everyday at work.

      2. Jen*

        Eh, I’d stick with more formal interview wear. Usually you can’t go wrong being more formal than required. I went to one this week where 2 of the 3 were wearing jeans, the other khakis and a button shirt. Even if I got called back I wouldn’t ‘dress down’ by wearing jeans or khakis.

      4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I have pretty much that dress, one from Coldwater Creek, may it rest in peace SNIFF, just a little longer.

        All you need is a soft jacket with it and I think it’s great interview wear.

    2. Graciosa*

      I would not wear a wrap dress for an interview, however my field is fairly conservative (although my workplace is more casual and I have seen these at a very senior level on the job). Still, I think for an interview, I would not want to err on the side of a wrap dress (as opposed to say, an executive sheath dress and jacket) without being very certain this would be perceived as sufficiently formal for an interview setting.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      Cute, but IMO a little unstructured for an interview. If your interviewers were wearing blazers, I would stick with a suit or coordinating separates and absolutely wear a jacket.

      (Side note: I have fantasies of starting a new job where I can brand myself as The Awesome Jacket Collection Lady.)

  92. super anon*

    A question from a frustrated recent grad – How am I supposed to get a job when nearly all (I would say about 97%) of the entry level positions I see have a “minimum 3 years experience” requirement? Even if I know I could do the job duties because I have done them at my previous jobs, but that “3 years of experience” requirement makes me pause in applying – and then I wonder if I’m wasting everyone’s time by applying since I don’t meet the requirements.

    I should note that my resume has extensive work history in it, but because a lot of my jobs were contracts and were all in different areas (and there was a year long period where I didn’t work because I was out of the country) I don’t have 3 years of experience in the private sector. Further compounding the issue is the majority of my experience is in academia and government as a research assistant, which leads private employers to think I don’t understand how the private sector works, or that I would be unhappy outside of academia – but they are my only “office” experience, my retail experience is all in sales. For the record, I’m leaving academia and government because I found that the buracracy and the slow pace are not for me, which I do mention in interviews when they “why don’t you do what you know” type of questions come up.

    I’ve been getting interviews, but I’m trying to move on after the interview and am still applying for more positions, and I keep butting up against this requirement in jobs that I would love to apply for but the minimum experience keeps tripping me up.

    tl;dr: How do you overcome not having 3 years experience for entry level jobs? And bonus question, how do people change fields when they have no direct experience in that field, but know they can do the job because they’ve done xyz before?

    1. alison with one L*

      I’d be curious what industry your looking to enter and what major you have? I know a lot of “frustrated recent grads” and I find that some industries and some majors are harder than others.

      1. super anon*

        I suppose I shouldn’t say I’m a frustrated new grad… It’s barely been a month since I finished my degree and I’ve already been on 4 job interviews, so it’s not like my prospects are absolutely terrible. But, I am frustrated with the “entry level jobs that require a minimum amount of experience” situation

        As for my major, I have a BA in Asian Studies – aka the worst major possible. I undertook it thinking I wanted to go into academia and do grad school in Asia and become a literary translator, but then I discovered 1 year before graduation that I couldn’t actually pass the language classes at my home university and I was really bad at learning a second language, so I changed my major and all of my future plans fell apart. The things that I am best at (literary analysis, writing and editing) aren’t that useful in 2015, or I don’t have the work experience necessary to apply for jobs that utilize those skills.

        Combine that with me finally realizing that working at a university is *really* not for me, and that I was at my happiest when I was working with people involved in tech and video games and those kinds of industries. Unfortunately, I don’t have a CS or programming degree, so my options for getting into those fields are kind of limited. My ultimate life dream is to open a pawn shop, but that isn’t really a feasible life plan right now.

        All of that is to say that I really don’t know what I want to do since everything fell apart and I think that’s the problem. I’m looking at positions right now that I a) have the experience to qualify for, b) might give me useful experience that I can take to apply for jobs that are more up my alley in the future, and c) will pay me enough that I can actually make my $1000 a month loan payments.

        1. HAnon*

          If I was in your shoes, I would do the following:

          -talk to your parents/relatives/parents friends/church or community members you know (not assuming you’re religious, but if you have a built-in network, use it!)
          -talk to a temp agency and get in their database. If you are offered a temp position, go ahead and take it so you have some income (which will bring you some peace of mind) and can begin gaining some experience
          -research some jobs that are “low hanging fruit” within companies that could be stepping stones to the positions you want (it depends on the company, but some customer service jobs, for example, don’t have as strict requirements for experience as others, so they might be easier to attain)
          -once you’re in with a company, do your best work and become their favorite employee. You never know what kind of opportunities can open up (even outside of the company through your boss or coworkers)

          I will say that I got all of my jobs through my own merit, but I also would not have known about those opportunities unless I had friends and family refer them to me. The first two jobs I had were referrals from family friends, and the third was a referral from a client I met through my second job. By the fourth job, I had enough experience to start moving in the direction I wanted to with my career…but in each prior job, I found opportunities to sharpen my skills in that area, even if it wasn’t in the job description per-say. People are more willing to hire people that are personally referred to them, so work this to your advantage as much as you can.

          Try not to worry too much about finding something exactly in your field right this second. Just focus on getting a job that can help you pay your bills and beginning to gain some initial experience and establish a great track record. Win over your boss and coworkers with your great attitude and willingness to get the job done. If you want a certain career badly enough, you will be able to attain it over time. It might just take a few jobs before you get there. Good luck! :)

        3. HeyNonnyNonny*

          Hey, the things you’re best at– literary analysis, writing and editing– are super useful in 2015! I was…a poetry major, and I also decided that academia just isn’t for me. Look into technical writing or PR; a lot of businesses need someone who’s good with words!

          It’s soul-crushing and won’t pay the bills, but you could also look into freelancing/Internet service writing or editing as a way to build up a portfolio and experience. Textbroker, Elance, etc.

        4. CA Admin*

          My husband did his degree in Biological Anthropology, thinking he’d go to grad school and do something in academia. His interest waned after school, but got interested in tech and programming and taught himself how to code (a bit). He attended Dev Boot Camp, a 9 week intensive programming course, so that he’d have the necessary skills to find a software developer job.

          It took him another 4 months to find a real job (there’s definitely a bias against these kind of programs among people who did the 4-year degree route), but he’s finally found a job that’s in line with his skills and interests. And he’s well paid for it.

          Those courses aren’t perfect. They’re for-profit, so tend to be expensive. The best ones are hard to get into and the others aren’t really worth doing. BUT, if you can get into Code Academy or Dev Boot Camp AND have $15k + 6 months of expenses saved up, it is possible to make that switch. It’s hard and long, but possible.

        5. Katie the Fed*

          Do you speak Chinese or Japanese? I’d really emphasize your language skills – that’s going to be something a lot of applicants don’t bring to the table.

          Are you applying for government jobs? State, USAID, DOD, Treasury, intelligence agencies, etc.? Yes, there are a boatload of applicants with regional studies backgrounds, but it never hurts to apply!

        6. Artemesia*

          I might take the plunge and do one of those bootcamp type programs in web design like Dev Bootcamp which has programs in SF, Chicago and New York or similar programs. I know people who went from poorly paid restaurant jobs to immediately making 60K in a starter job in this field and others who have gotten on real career tracks. You might then be in a position to think out a strategy to move in the direction you specifically want to be in but from the platform of gaining experience in a media/technology job as you do it. The programs are not cheap but not crazy expensive and they last about 3 mos or less and are highly skill oriented.

        7. matcha123*

          I don’t know if this will help you, but I also have a BA in Asian Studies and I am currently living in Asia and doing translation. I’m going to assume that you studied either Korean, Chinese or Japanese.

          You might want to look into working abroad in one of those countries for a year. English teaching is a big one, but there are companies that are not related to English teaching. I believe that there is a jobs fair in Boston for Japanese companies and your Asian Studies office might have some resources for you. In my case, I applied to the JET Program and worked as a CIR for a number of years. Other friends who also focused on Japanese studies or Korean studies worked for a year or two in those countries before returning to the US.

          Some are now program coordinators, others went to grad school and others work for the government or Japanese companies.

        8. Pedantic*

          I would continue to apply for those entry level jobs, and cite what experience you do have. If it’s not enough for them, the only time you’re wasting is the time they’re spending skimming your resume and cover letter. I would also consider trying to get some temp work – a little temp work can at least show that you can fit well into a non-academic office setting.

          You mentioned lit analysis not being very translatable into a non-academic job. I have an English degree, and I’m currently working in supply chain, doing work that involves a lot of data analysis. I have a stock response for interview questions about my degree that gets good responses, where I explain that I really enjoy analytic work, and the lit analysis I focused on in school was a great way to practice those skills in an abstract way that translates well to working with data now. The intellectual muscles that I’d use to compare and contrast Emma Bovary with Tess Durbeyfield are the same ones I might use to weigh sourcing options for a new product, and the creative nature of my background allows me to come up with solutions that might differ from someone who followed a more traditional education path, and communicate them more effectively. ( I have experience I can use to back this up, in your shoes I might add some MOOC courses in data analysis.)

          TL;DR – if you like lit analysis, consider data analysis work as a better-paying alternative career path.

    2. AVP*

      I can’t answer everything here, as I have no experience with academia or how that might translate, but you should work on a really strong argument that will fit into a cover letter (and get tweaked a bit for each individual letter) about how your experience with xyz translates to Open Position, and why you would be great at the job. Good hiring managers will read those, and you’ll (hopefully, eventually) find someone willing to take a chance on you.

      As for the lack of experience for entry-level jobs…that’s come up a lot lately. First, I would categorize all of your working experience, internships, research work (if it was in an environment where you had a manager and targets, which it sounds like you did), as some kind of “experience,” if not exactly what they’re looking for. Add them all up…are you anywhere close to the amount of experience they were looking for? Can you make a case for that?

      And then, if the job says entry level, I would apply. People who say entry level but also “three years required” (or whatever amount) are often just hoping to see what they get, and there’s a big range between “3 years absolutely necessary” (in which case they shouldn’t call it entry level!) and “would be nice but we’ll see who applies.” It’s okay to apply for jobs if you don’t meet every single thing they ask for. You might waste some time, but as long as the HM can see how rationally you saw the ad and thought you might be good at it (again, cover letter is key here) most won’t hold it against you for only having 75% instead of 100%.

    3. fposte*

      I’m going to say that if you’ve gotten four interviews in a month, you’re apparently finding your way around this limitation pretty well!

      Generally, though, the best way to overcome this is to network. Maybe you could do the job, but you’re up against people who have the exact experience they’re asking for. Obviously, as already noted, frame your cover letter to contextualize your resume skills in their organization’s terms, but really, network the hell out of everybody. And whatever you’re doing to get those four interviews, do that some more.

    5. LAI*

      I agree with the others that 4 interviews in a month is actually really good! I don’t think you’ll have to make major changes before you start getting offers. But I do wonder if maybe a piece of the problem is that you might be giving off a kind-of negative vibe? I know your post was just an internet rant and I’m sure it’s not what you’re like in interviews, but if they pick up even a hint of resentment about their “3 years” requirement, and then you also allude to how much you hated working in academia or that you think your major was the worst major ever… I’m know you’re not actually saying those things, but even subtle hints can add up to an overall negative picture.

      For example, instead of saying “the bureaucracy and slow pace” of academia weren’t for you, you could instead say, “I’m interested in working a faster-paced industry”. It’s saying the exact same thing, but it makes it a positive thing about you instead of a negative thing about something else.

      1. super anon*

        Oh for sure, I’d *never* say those things in an interview! It’s all about the positives!

        I think my frustration in this thread is more at the fact that how can it be an entry level job if you need 3 years of experience? I’ve read here that it makes you look bad to potential employers if you apply to things you aren’t qualified for, so the experience of trying to wade my way through job postings and figure out which to apply to is a confusing and frustrating experience. I wish things were more clear cut!

        1. MsM*

          There’s a difference between not being qualified and not meeting the requirements, though. I would much rather hire someone who can show how their professional experience adds up to what I’m looking for through their cover letter and resume in a clear and articulate fashion than someone who has the required number of years but doesn’t seem to have done much with them. But I’ve mostly worked for organizations where they take the time to read cover letters and don’t filter everything through keywords before it even reaches a human being, so maybe that’s one way to up your odds?

    6. BRR*

      You name the 3 years and academia as limiting you but do you know that’s the reason you’re not getting offers as in have people specifically told you that? First apply anyways even if you don’t have 3 years if it’s entry level. Nobody tallies it up. Check Alison’s article about getting interviews (which you seem to be doing great at so keep it up!) and no offer.

      http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2014/03/24/what-to-change-if-youre-getting-interviews-but-no-job-offers

      1. super anon*

        I know that it might be limiting me because I ask the “what reservations do you have about me” question that Allison suggests, and everyone has expressed concern that I don’t have experience in the private sector and/or would be happier in academia. I address that concern, but I wonder if prior to the interview stage my experience could be a limiting factor.

        I’m not concerned about not getting job offers yet because it’s only been a week since my last interview (and 2 weeks since the first one I went on), so I don’t know if I’m at the “interviews and no offer” stage. One of the interviews as a second interview, and one company really liked me but I knew it wouldn’t be a fit so I withdrew my application. I’ll check out that article and make plans to adjust accordingly for my next interview, just in case.

        1. BRR*

          This is all helpful to know, sorry if I sounded harsh. I don’t think you should withdraw your application, you can always just turn down an offer. If experience is limiting prior to the interview stage, than you just don’t get an interview.

          Also reading above it’s incredibly frustration how entry level jobs want so much experience. In my opinion they just don’t want someone who has never worked a day in their life.

  93. alison with one L*

    I had a big win at my job yesterday!! We have weekly team meetings that require facilitation. These are 4.5 hour meetings to work on a project. My boss was on vacation this week and I was asked to facilitate the meeting, by myself, for the first time.

    We accomplished everything we had planned to, got out 5 minutes early, and I got very positive feedback from my boss’s boss who attends the meetings. I am so excited!!

    What are your best tips for being a good facilitator?
    Thanks in advance!

    1. super anon*

      I created and facilitated an upper level class as part of my undergrad degree, so I got a lot of experience with facilitation.

      My biggest advice is: don’t be afraid of silence. A lot of new facilitators think that silence is the ultimate evil, and as soon as there’s a lul in the conversation will jump in to try to push the conversation forward. Often there’s silence because people are thinking and putting together thoughts. In my class, some of the best insights and observations came from periods of silence. My rule of thumb was to let there be silence until you felt like you needed to jump in, and then wait just a little bit longer.

      1. Ellie A.*

        This is absolutely true. I’m a former high school English teacher, and, as a teacher, you learn that wait time is essential for any real, meaningful discussion. If you’ve just asked a question, you have to remember — you’ve already been thinking about this issue, but it’s the first time your students are hearing it. You have to give them time to think about what they want to say. 5 seconds of silence seems agonizing to you, but to your students it seems like you literally just asked the question and it hasn’t been quiet that long (which is probably true).

        I say try to wait 20-30 seconds at least before jumping in yourself and saying a little bit more about it to jump start the conversation. If you keep jumping in before everyone else has had enough time to think, then it’s not a discussion; it’s a lecture.

        Also, don’t be afraid to call on people — especially if you’ve give plenty of wait time and there’s someone who looks like they’ve got something to say but just don’t want to go first. You get to recognize the body language after you’ve seen it a few times. A lot of people are shy and don’t want to call attention to themselves by speaking up, but actually have something to say and are willing to share it if you ask.

        There’s also the opposite problem — the student who loves to hear him/herself talk and won’t concede the floor to anyone else. Don’t be afraid to gently interrupt with a, “Interesting. So what you’re saying is x. Does anybody else have a comment on that?” Or if they’ve been going on and on for a while, you can be more direct: “Vernon, we’ve heard from you quite a bit already. Does anyone else have something to say?”

        Of course, leading a work meeting is different from teaching a high school English class, but I bet a lot of the same basic discussion patterns apply.

        1. super anon*

          “There’s also the opposite problem — the student who loves to hear him/herself talk and won’t concede the floor to anyone else. Don’t be afraid to gently interrupt with a, “Interesting. So what you’re saying is x. Does anybody else have a comment on that?” Or if they’ve been going on and on for a while, you can be more direct: “Vernon, we’ve heard from you quite a bit already. Does anyone else have something to say?””

          We got around this in my class by creating a list of “classroom values” on the first day of the term – which was basically our class rules for the entire term. One of the our values was “share the air”, and because we had set that expectation at the beginning of the term I found that people were very good at policing themselves, if they realized they had talked a lot they would notice that and let someone else speak before they did, or others would point out that they had contributed a lot. I think I had a really good group of people, but having the values really did help because they put everyone on the same page and with the same set of expectations for the discussions.

          I don’t know how you could implement this in a work setting, but I think having guidelines like that if you work in a very discussion focused work place could be valuable.

          1. fposte*

            Oh, seconding this so hard. If you have framed what behaviors you’re aiming for up front, you’re not cutting somebody off for personal reasons, you’re just keeping the group on track. It’s so much less laden.

    2. Ellie A.*

      Oh, I also just noticed the length of the meeting — 4.5 hours! That’s a long time! I’ve found most people cannot concentration on one task for that long. Try breaking things up. Work on A for 30 minutes, then B for 30 minutes, then take a 5 minute break, then work on C for 45 minutes — etc. Make sure they’re different types of tasks, so you’re not doing the same thing over and over.

      1. alison with one L*

        Sometimes we have to spend most of the meeting on the same TYPE of task, but often we shift between topics. This allows different team members (on a multi-disciplinary team) to contribute more or less to the discussion.

  94. Very Hungry*

    I recently started a new job that isn’t close to any restaraunts/take out places, at my old job I was able to quickly run out to get something to eat. Now I can’t and I’m finding lunch to be so stressful. Honestly, I’ve never liked eating a packed lunch (when I was in elementary school I lived close enough to go home for lunch, and the schools encouraged that!). I have no idea what to pack for lunch now. I don’t mind it when I have leftovers because that’s easy & tasty, but I have NO IDEA what to make when I don’t have leftovers.

    Any ideas/websites for tasty lunches that are easy to pack/make??

    1. brownblack*

      I don’t have any ideas for you, but I recently started a new job and I am in the exact same position. I can’t believe how bereft of decent lunch options this busy commercial neighborhood in the heart of a major city is.

      Recently, an old building nearby was converted into a sort of upscale whole foods-type shop with hot food, sandwich and salad bars, sushi etc all available. What a great solution to this obvious problem, I thought! I was really excited to check it out. I walked in, saw not a single sandwich for less than $14, and walked right out.

      1. CheeryO*

        “I don’t have any ideas for you, but I recently started a new job and I am in the exact same position. I can’t believe how bereft of decent lunch options this busy commercial neighborhood in the heart of a major city is.”

        Ahh, this is me, too! Sorry about your new food shop – that’s so disappointing. :(

    2. Colette*

      Personally, I purposefully make leftovers – I cook a big meal on the weekend, enough so that I have leftovers for the week. I divvy them up in containers so that all I have to do in the morning is grab a container + cutlery.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Me too! I love my leftovers. Although my husband decided he wants to bring in lunches too so now I get to make extra for him too.

      2. Helka*

        Leftovers are fantastic! I don’t tend to do the big cook on the weekends, but just plan dinner every night for four+ portions — meals for the 2 of us, leftovers for the 2 of us!

    3. AVP*

      Oddly Refinery 29 has some great ideas for this, as does the Orangette food blog. Links in a separate post below.

      1. AVP*

        http://www.refinery29.com/healthy-lunch-recipes

        http://www.refinery29.com/54185

        http://www.refinery29.com/cheap-healthy-food-recipe-guide

        When I was broke I ate this chickpea salad basically every day. It’s even cheaper (although more time consuming) if you buy dried chickpeas and boil them yourself: http://orangette.blogspot.com/2007/01/brown-bag-it.html

        101 Cookbooks also has a million ideas of packable salads, grains, dumpling, etc (vegetarian): http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/an-ideal-lunch-salad-recipe.html

        1. ProductiveDyslexic*

          My staple is basically tinned beans + cous cous + tahini + in-season veggies + soy sauce. I have a tupperware lunch box, which I “cook” the cous cous in, and then add the other ingredients. When I’ve had access to a microwave, I’ve also taken in frozen lentil/bean/veggie soups, plus ryvita or pita.

        2. Anx*

          Back when I had fridge/microwave options I was big into bean salads.

          I would do white beans, tomatoes (added at the end because I am a snob about my tomatoes and won’t eat them cold), red onion, cucumber, vinegarette.

          Or the same thing with chickpeas and feta and olives.

    4. Felicia*

      I either make left overs on purpose for lunch, or else I make a variety of awesome sandwiches with good bread, various meats/cheeses/vegetables. Or I make salads with both nuts and cheese in them. I also sometimes do a variety of frozen dinners. I’m a big fan of pizza pockets , though some people hate them.

      I never go out for lunch, just because it is significantly more expensive, and also my parents never took us out to eat much, and eating lunch at home wasn’t an option for 99% of people in my elementary or middle schools, so i’m used to packing lunch. I’m also a very frugal person i guess.

    5. Malissa*

      If you have access to a freezer at work, Healthy Choice bowls are really great. And you can catch them on sale for $2 each or less.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        They are. I usually make a lunch or, when I cook dinner for myself, I make enough for lunch the next day also, but I like to keep these around for when I’m in a hurry or can’t decide what sandwich to make.

        Another thing I found that helps is to pack my lunch up the night before. If I want a sandwich, I put the fillings, bread, and condiments in containers and then pack those in my lunchbox in the morning. Then I can assemble it at work and it doesn’t get soggy.

    6. Muriel Heslop*

      When I started teaching, I learned very quickly that I was going to have to make my lunch or eat cafeteria food. Guess which I chose?

      I shop on the weekend for lunch items for the week and I prepare them for the week on Sunday night. I keep a few Healthy Choice bowls in the freezer and a few Progresso Light soups in the pantry for emergencies. Chobani, fresh fruit, pita chips + hummus, avocado slices on toast + radish slices. I got some great salad making ideas from Refinery29 like AVP mentioned. Also, crock pots soups are great to freeze and defrost as needed – I stocked up some more Pyrex at Marshalls last week. Anything in the crockpot is good to make for the week ahead. Veggie sticks, roasted potatoes, steamable bags of veggies, and pasta dishes are other easy options. I put everything together in plasticware/Pyrex the night before and my husband and I can just grab our bags and go.

      Good luck! It was a really hard transition for me to make as well. Now I enjoy the ritual and I save a TON of money. Plus, I’ve enjoyed getting to know some different coworkers by eating in the lunch room.

    7. Sunflower*

      As always, Pintrest has a ton of these. Search ‘adult packed lunches’ and there is so so so much on there!

      Lean Cuisines and soup are good for when I don’t have time to make lunch. I always have a couple on hand just in case.

      I eat a lot of salads and it’s a quick, easy meal for me- for some reason, I get a lot of comments that salads take too long to make. They key is to try to meal plan for the majority of the week. For some products, I try to cook enough to last me a couple days- like chicken, rice, potatoes and they can be incorporated into your meal.

    8. The IT Manager*

      As someone else mentioned Lean Cuisine and other frozen dinners can work.

      I also like to cook in the crock pot (chicken/pork/beef tagine and stews) and that works great to make leftovers. I usually eat them over rice. You can make a number of servings and freeze in smaller containers so you have something small and easy to pull weeks or months later. That can help with variety.

      I have the opposite problem. Since my office moved, I have a bunch of options and keep going out to eat instead of eating what I bring in which inevideably will contain less calories than whatever I buy from nearby restaurants.

    10. HR Manager*

      I had this problem when I moved to my current office park location. I’m not a sandwich person, so I hated making lunch. My typical modus operandi is to make extra for dinner, and bring it in the next day. I’m also a big fan of fancier cup noodles (not the Maruchan brand) – go to your local Asian market for better flavored ones – that I keep at my desk as emergency lunch.

      I also have take-out soup plastic cups that I fill with soup, cereal and/or fruit to bring into the office. I also keep a pack or two of frozen entrees for emergencies so that I can bring that in. When I am at a total lost, I do take out delivery.

    11. Artemesia*

      I don’t like sandwiches and loved leftovers. So I made a point of ‘making leftovers’ I would make 3 times as much of a pasta dish as we would have for dinner and immediately package up 3 or 4 lunch size servings to take to work and heat up. You could also while cooking dinner, actually cook up stuff you like to take as leftovers. I also made sure I had Greek yogurts that I liked and granola bars that I liked as emergency food for days I didn’t have my act together. There are also things in the freezer section of your grocery that work as alternatives to leftovers e.g. single serving frozen entrees like pasta or rice dishes.

    12. Anx*

      I can relate to this pretty well. My work refrigerator is tiny (it’s a mini fridge) and half full of bottled water (which grates me a little bit because we have water fountains) so there’s barely room for a sandwich. So I can’t count on being able to refrigerate my lunch/dinner. So I end up living on granola bars and stuff. It makes me so much more grateful for the refrigerator where my classes are.

  95. anon for this*

    Just found out that my boss:

    1. Lied about one my coworkers calling in sick, probably because she forgot to tell anyone and we were severely understaffed that day (to clarify: we are required to call her personal cell phone and not the office when calling out. Coworker called and left a message the night before because she was very ill. Boss claimed not to have heard anything by 10 the following morning, then checked her phone and said that coworker ‘must have called while she was in the shower’).

    2. Has been showing up either late or not at all to important meetings with local officials. She was half an hour late to a meeting with our Senator the other day, and has apparently been habitually skipping various other meetings to the point that one of our senior staff members has started going to cover for her.

    She’s buddy-buddy with the board president, so I don’t see how any good can come of complaining to them, but ye gods is it annoying.

    1. Graciosa*

      This seems like stuff that could be fairly normal –

      Not noticing a message and assuming it came in at the time when you were most likely to be unavailable does not necessarily equate to lying. Showing up late to meetings can go either way – yes, it’s rude, but without knowing what other activities took priority, it’s hard to be certain her priorities are not aligned with those of the organization. What if she has a family member with a serious health issue, disclosed to her boss but not her subordinates?

      I think your best choice here may be to allow your boss’ manager worry about managing your boss. Even if there is a problem, you’re right that you won’t be able to fix it – although I do understand your frustration if that’s the case. Focusing your attention elsewhere may still be the best option, as thinking about this too much is not likely to reduce your irritation level.

      Best wishes –

      1. anon for this*

        In theory I know that, in practice it’s hard to do. :)

        What bothers me is that she actually prohibits people from calling the office when they’re sick and does not notify the staff if someone is out…which in our business leads to a lot of coverage issues.

        I suspect the meeting issue is just laziness on her part, as she also tends to skip or show up late to staff meetings, which are (a) scheduled by her, (b) mandatory for all staff and (c) scheduled very early in the morning on several staff members’ regular days off. As for the last one, she was hanging around chatting with a coworker about Mardi Gras right before she left–someone actually had to remind her to leave so she’d get to the meeting on time.

        Argh. Mostly just venting about this, because you’re right…there really isn’t anything I can do either way.

  96. brownblack*

    I work at a large nonprofit organization in a very insular sector. I have been at this org for less than a year, but I have about a decade of experience at peer organizations.

    Earlier this week, we had a going away party for someone who has been at the organization for decades in a series of top positions. He has done truly remarkable work, and has been responsible for many of the organization’s biggest triumphs, including substantial capital projects and a variety of ancillary undertakings that have brought us major recognition. He oversees a lot of day-to-day operations and he is a central figure among our roughly 200-person staff.

    Recently, the CEO decided to do some restructuring, and evidently this guy’s job was restructured out of existence. I don’t know exactly what happened behind the scenes, but essentially, he got laid off. In some ways this is a cliche – guy devotes his whole career (his life, really) to a company only to be let go within spitting distance of retirement.

    I am having a lot of trouble dealing with this. He was such a towering figure at this organization, and the way this has been handled at the top level has been rather cold. At the going away party – which overflowed the room it was held in – there was a lot of emotion. And now, this guy has to find a new job (in an industry in which there may be perhaps 5 available jobs at his level at any given time, and that’s a generous estimate) at the age of 60 ish, and he will certainly have to move to a different city with his family, all of whom are well-established here.

    As for the CEO’s decision, the reasoning seems shaky at best, although I know he wouldn’t do this lightly. I just feel bad all around. It’s all really distasteful and has made me rethink my opinion of this organization.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m going to play devil’s advocate here. It’s totally possible that your assessment of what happened here is exactly right; certainly that kind of thing does happen. But it’s also true that sometimes it can look that way from the outside, whereas the real story is very different. For instance, it’s possible that the people on this guy’s team were the ones driving the great work you saw, and that this guy didn’t have a major role in really making that happen. It’s possible that there were other big issues you wouldn’t have seen — like that he was difficult to get along with, or had a vision that was at odds with the organization’s and it couldn’t be reconciled, or that he was indeed doing great work but the organization has made a correct decision to change the direction of that work or cut it back altogether because they correctly think they can have more of an impact somewhere else. Or that he sexually harassed people or slept with a subordinate. (Which happens even with people who seem like great people to others.) Or that there was some performance issue that couldn’t be resolved — like he was great at X and Y but really not good at or interested in Z, and Z happens to be of great importance to the organization.

      There’s no way to know, of course, and I might be totally wrong. But what I can say for sure is that it’s really common in these situations for people not immediately involved in the decision-making to know why the decision was made. And in many of these cases, the org would be making the kinder choice by not telling people.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yeah…I know soooo many sordid backstories on disciplinary actions that would shock people. If we’re doing our jobs as managers I think most people won’t know the real reason behind it.

        1. MT*

          There are lots of little things people can be fired for that everyone just overlooks. We just had a guy who was fired for things he viewed on his company phone. He had been on the rumor mill list for months for an incident with a client. Everyone was just waiting for the official firing reason. This other issue is big withing some companies. Somethings are easier to document and fire people for.

      2. fposte*

        I was adjacent to a firing that infuriated a whole lot of people, who really liked the person who was fired. And the firing was totally justified in ways that they were never going to know, because there was more value to the organization in our keeping it to ourselves (nothing criminal or anything, just performance stuff).

  97. Dani X*

    Looks like my company is going to be laying off people in the next month or so. I figure it is better to get in front of the 8 ball. What are the best places to put your resume for a software developer type of job?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Do you mean where’s a good place to post your CV online? Because that’s kind of a passive and inefficient method of job hunting.

      I’d start contacting recruiters and a looking on linkedin and job sites for things to apply for.

  98. Jennifer*

    Okay, so I have an interview next week. It’s in a more male-dominated industry, and after reading a thread on Metafilter about totally sexist behavior in male-dominated industries, I’m starting to feel nervous about it. I’ve always worked in extremely female-oriented work before and never ran into that sort of thing. Most of the work sounds up my alley, except for one thing they only mentioned after I got the interview and had I seen it mentioned on the application I would have never applied for the job–I don’t want to do anything involving money. So I dunno if I want it or not, but we’ll see. I also applied to another similar job in the same org, which might be a better fit, who knows.

    I go back and forth on leaving at this point. The public service here kills me, but the rest of it is fine. They might shift my job responsibilities a bit in the future but will never, ever take me off public service, so….yeah. Mostly what concerns me is that I am THE expert with the most years of experience in my area in a certain topic–and the folks I’ve been training on it are not doing so well, albeit slowly improving. I feel terrible at the idea of abandoning them to it alone because they will absolutely make a hash of it and not get things done if I’m not there. But…then again, there’s the public service that kills me. Argh. It’s ridiculous how conflicted I am about this considering how generally unhappy-ish I am (albeit it varies now instead of being utter misery daily).

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think you’re putting the cart a bit before the horse, no? You don’t even have an offer yet and you’re trying to talk yourself out of it! Why are you doing that? Just give it your best and if you get an offer, you can work through these things then.

      But for your specific points:

      I work in a very male dominated industry and I put up with my fair share of stupidity, but I also really like my job, and I think I bring something very unique to the position that other people don’t. So I wouldn’t let that dissuade you. I think it can be a fun challenge at times.

      Working with money – not sure how I can help you there but I’d be a little open minded about it and see if there’s any room there.

      On leaving a job where you’re an expert – don’t worry about them. Organizations lose expertise. It happens. They build more experts then. They’ll survive without you, I promise.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      My industry was completely male dominated when I joined, hell, most of the business world was. That’s not a reason to let anything stop you.

      FWIW, the guys in my company were always great, if sometime a bit tone deaf or clueless, but always kind and supportive. Outside the company, I have my fair share of war stories, but still, not anything that made me regret my choices once.

      If women let themselves be daunted by male dominated areas, all areas would be male dominated. Once upon a not too long ago time, that’s the way it was.

      Go Peggy Olson!

          1. Katie the Fed*

            I can actually see that. You have an assertive, no-nonsense, and practical approach that signifies strong leadership skills. And I think, unfortunately, people often associate strong leadership skills with men.

            The same thing happened with the woman who had the I f**king Love Science facebook page. Everyone assumed she was a guy when it was anonymous and when she revealed herself the interwebs were all “OMG WOMENZ DO SCIENCE??”

        2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Most people do. User name, I didn’t think through that if I had Wakeen in it, people would think I am a guy.

          1. ArtsNerd*

            My embarrassment is that I think it’s more along the lines of what Katie the Fed is talking about. You do a great job portraying yourself as a savvy, hard-nosed business professional! And eff yeah for that! But I didn’t check my biases in building up my mental image of you. Wakeen probably didn’t help matters, but I think that was secondary.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I’ve worked in a male dominated field for 15 years. It’s not so bad most of the time. I’ve had a total of 3 gender-related issues/incidents/struggles in my entire career. Those were individual-related, more than overall environment-related. However, I do not forget that the movie North Country was about a real event not so long ago.

      In my industry, it seems the support departments aren’t as male as the operations are. Accounting/finance is evenly mixed. Marketing is a pink ghetto. Sales is mixed. HR is mixed. So, depending on what you’re doing, it might not be as “male” as you’re expecting.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Marketing was just turning over business world wise when I joined the business world. At the time, my sales job was mostly to marketing folks and in the very earliest years, that was about selling to men.

        Then *bam* and blink and 90% of marketing contacts were women. And still are.

        So…my joining a male dominated industry to sell mostly to men turned very quickly into a “where did the guys go?” set up.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being horribly miserable your Current Job sounds like an 11.
      The money thing sounds like a 4 or a 5? Am guessing.

      Find out more about the money. Ask them how much of your average work day would be spent dealing with money. See what they say and go from there.

      I understand feeling terrible about leaving your current folks. But you know what, they could resign one by one and all be gone next month. Then you would be saying “why did I feel so badly? They are gone and I am still here.” There’s more than one person responsible for that sagging situation. Try not to drag the heavy end of that responsibility on to yourself.

      1. Jennifer*

        Thanks, I’ll ask them how often I have to do that. I am terrible at math and the easiest way to get canned from a job is to screw up the money, which is why I’m pretty freaked at the idea.

        Yeah, I need to just go if I have the option and the job doesn’t turn out to be worse than this one.

    5. CheeryO*

      Just another data point on the female-in-a-male-dominated-workplace issue: I work in government, and I am the only woman on a 13 person team. I haven’t worked here long, but I really don’t foresee any issues. I have to assure my coworkers that I won’t faint if they drop the occasional F-bomb, but that’s about the extent of their ingrained sexism. They are all very kind to me, and they’re excited that our field is growing and starting to attract more women. Obviously I can’t speak to every industry, but you shouldn’t assume that you’ll run into problems.

  99. LEL*

    All: I’d love to hear about what other resources besides AAM you’ve found genuinely useful for career development, guidance, planning, etc. Blogs, books, videos, magazines–format is unimportant. I love this blog–great advice and perspective, minus jargons and buzzwords and other silliness–and I’d like to find more resources just like it.

    2. C Average*

      I sometimes like stuff on The Muse and 99u.com. Some of it is silly and gimmicky, but once in a while there are some gems. Nothing as awesome as what’s here, though. This site and Seth Godin’s blog are the two online destinations I visit multiple times on any given day.

  100. Jen RO*

    I am in need of help with a few well-thought out sentences for a report. He is good at his job (when he wants to), but his behavior is really immature. It’s nothing objectionable per se, but it makes him look like he’s 16 and I’ve had more than a few of his peers ask me when he’s gonna grow up… It’s things like quoting 9gag and various memes non stop, brofists and high fives with his buddy, laughing loudly at stupid things, and bugging people with jokes at bad moments.

    So, how do I tell him that I cannot forbid him from doing these things and I am not telling him to change his personality, but that they are hurting him, and no it’s not that everyone else is a bore? Sometimes I feel like a highschool teacher (you people must have nerves of steel!)… except my guy is 24.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Oh, I had someone like this. I think I used something like this.

      “Although he is technically proficient at his job and produces good work, Mr. Bojangles should work on adopting a more professional demeanor in other aspects of his job. His behavior at time gives the impression that he is not fully ready to perform in a professional environment, which unfortunately hurt perceptions of his credibility.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Without knowing the context of your work, it’s a little hard, but here’s a start:
      Several aspects of your work have been impressive this year. Your work on x really moved the team ahead on y. On the z project, your contribution meant that y turned out better than we had planned. While your work product is solid, I’d like for you to work on developing your professional presence. While we don’t always have to be serious at work, your interactions with others have landed too often on the side of overly casual, silly, or familiar. You have a promising career ahead of you. To ensure that your career advances as it should and that you have the full support and respect of your co-workers, I want to encourage you to match your interactions with others to the polished, professional image you present in your work product.

      1. Iro*

        ^ This.

        Be as specific as possible here. Especially if performance reviews are shared. I don’t like overly broad personality type criticisms on performance reviews because who knows how “unprofessional” will be interpretted by the next reader.

    3. Jen RO*

      These are beyond great – I hadn’t even considered that I will have to write his performance evaluation soon!

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        Glad to help!
        Katie the Fed, I like your wording as well – your not-wordy-wording :-)

  101. JAL*

    I got sent home early from work because we ran out todaay. If you’ve seen me around lately, you know that I am suffering from a painful back injury and I’m probably going to need surgery. I currently don’t have my driver’s license and I have been relying on public transportation but lately, I haven’t been able to because of the pain. I rely on other people to pick me up from work and today I went through this huge run around finding someone to give me a ride.

    Anyway, would it be reasonable to ask my boss that if she knows we’re low on work for the day, that she can tell me and I’ll just take a sick day or work the few hours from home (which I have the option to do)? It is ridiculous I was at work for 3 hours today when I can barely move.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I mean, I’d at least tell her what your situation is, in case it’s easy enough for her to work around. While she’s not responsible for transportation problems, I think there’s a reasonable chance that she’s be happy to at least help you anticipate these things.

    2. Jen*

      I wouldn’t think it’d hurt to ask, and it would make sense since you can work from home anyways. The only problem would be if they didn’t realize til the day of that they were short on work.

  102. Not Here or There*

    I’m probably too late to have anyone notice this… but I feel like I need to get this off my chest. I hate when a boss tells you that you’re just perfect and that everything you do is just great when you ask for feedback. This is not a humble-brag. Seriously, I’m not perfect, I know I’m not perfect. When I have meetings with my boss, while I don’t want them to be constantly negative, I do really want to know if there’s something they think I can do better.

    I started a new job, and my new boss has given me nothing but praise for feedback. I know there’s things I’ve screwed up (being new and not knowing the ropes), and I’m sure there are things that I’ve done that she would prefer I do another way. But, all I get is ‘your just wonderful, everything is perfect’, and that’s fine every once in a while, but if that’s all you get all the time, I feel like I’m just getting smoke blown up my skirt. I’ve had an issue with bosses in the past who didn’t give constructive feedback (either they didn’t give any feedback or were always telling me that everything was awesome) only to have them come back later when they’re super upset because I’ve been polishing the chocolate teapots wrong for months and it’s become an issue. When I request feedback in our meetings, how do I nicely ask them to give me something more (I’ve tried several versions of: “is there anything I’m doing that I could be doing better” “what would you like me to change” “I realize that X didn’t go to plan, what would you suggest I do differently next time?” and so far haven’t gotten anywhere).

    1. Sadsack*

      Is there a next-up position that you may consider one day? Maybe if you ask what areas you should concentrate on developing in order to be eligible for a promotion to the next position, you can get into a more in-depth discussion of your current skills/work habits. I realize that this is not the same thing as asking what you can do to improve in your current position, but maybe you will get to the same information you are seeking by asking about how you can move up in the organization.

      1. AnotherHRPro*

        Very good advice. Try to focus your manager on providing you coaching to prepare you for whatever your career aspirations are. Ask what skills and abilities are needed to be “Head Chocolate Teapot Maker” and then what you should be doing to develop those skills.

    2. brownblack*

      I started a new job not too long ago and I love my boss, but she gives this kind of feedback too. It’s really disconcerting to hear about what a great job I’m doing when I don’t really feel that I’m doing a great job – I feel like I’m doing okay, and I know I’m self-critical, but I’m hoping to get support on this from my boss and not blanket “great job!” statements.

      1. fposte*

        Can you articulate what you’re looking for (here, I mean, not to your boss)? I think generally “great job!” for a new employee means “You’re performing at or above the expected competency for a new employee”–it doesn’t mean nobody’s seen that you’re still figuring stuff out. I can’t tell if you’re looking for more information, which I think is something appropriate to ask a manager to provide, or just more mirroring of your feelings about the learning curve, which may be a little out of the managerial wheelhouse.

    3. Anie*

      What if your boss honestly thinks everything is going fine? It’s impossible to do everything exactly like the person in the position before you. In my experience, bosses make concessions and learn to do things slightly different based on each individual.

      If you’ve already asked and even phrased things in multiple ways, there’s not a lot more you can say without sounding high maintenance and demanding.

    4. fposte*

      I’m with Anie. I think you should do your manager the courtesy of believing her. And even if she were going to turn up with a complaint later, trying to beat it out of her now would only going to sour the relationship earlier

      And managers are great, but they’re not your superego–it’s still mainly on you to handle your own performance. Are there areas you’d like to be stronger in? Are there people whose proficiency you’d like to emulate? Maybe create some improvement goals or metrics for yourself and work toward those.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Definitely, set your own goals for quality and accuracy. Since your boss is not giving you the inputs you are looking for then consider asking her specific questions as you go along. She may pick up on common threads and give you resource materials or some book titles to check out.

        My other suggestion is to just learn to be more thankful for having a good boss. I know- not exactly what you wanted to hear but you don’t know where she has been or what she has been through. You MAY actually be the best thing since sliced bread in her life.

        Relax your mind and start to figure out which parts of your job you would like to have a stronger handle on. Target those parts and learn that. Then move on to other parts of your job and do the same.

  103. Libonymous*

    I posted several weeks ago about my director who was asked to resign and I was worried if I took the interim position, it would look to other directors in my field that I had manipulated things to get his job. Well, I accepted the interim position and (three weeks in) like it better than I thought I would and am considering applying when the job ad posts.

    However, I noticed that the job ad requires fewer years experience than the job description in the personnel policy. I pointed this out to the chairman of the board (unfortunately before a meeting officially started, so my comment isn’t in the minutes), but the job ad was approved for posting. Legally, I don’t know whether or not it matters.

    What most concerns me is that I don’t meet the requirements under the job description (unless we do things like count part-time, volunteer work as part of my years of experience), but I do meet the requirements of the job ad. Now I wonder if I should send an e-mail to the chair of the hiring committee to point out the differences or if this is beyond my responsibility. Besides the legal question, I don’t want to end up being hired permanently and then have the gossip be that I manipulated the job ad so that I could get the position.

    1. Graciosa*

      What is the legal question?

      I don’t believe there is any law that states that if a job is posted for X years of experience, a business is legally prohibited from hiring anyone with less experience. This happens all the time. Government and academic hiring is generally more rigid in this area, and your employer might worry about hiring someone with fewer qualifications if they discriminated against more qualified candidates from a protected class – but that is for the employer to worry about, not you.

      On your other point, I think you need to stop worrying about possible future gossip and focus on the job – first on winning the position, and then (hopefully) on doing the best possible job in the role. Small-minded people will always find something to criticize if they decide they don’t like you, and if your goal in life is to prevent anyone from disliking you, you need to avoid any managerial or executive roles.

      The way to deal with any gossip in the future is not to publicly discount your own qualifications during the interview process. It is to prove by your performance that you were indeed the best possible choice.

      Good luck.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I’d ask. I am not sure at what point in the process I would ask but I would ask why the difference between the two postings and should I be concerned. I would rather know upfront than carry that around with me as a secret for years.

    4. BRR*

      I’m not sure what you mean legally. Job descriptions aren’t legal (possibly union ones because of a contract). Nothing says they couldn’t hire me as a rocket scientist. I would just suck at it. You’re WAY overthinking this. If they asked you be the interim director that means they think you can handle it at least temporarily.

      1. Felicia*

        I’ve seen a lot of job postings, particularly for small start ups for more creative design roles, have the word ninja in the title. I don’t think they’ll find anyone qualified to be a ninja :)

      2. Libonymous*

        The legal question actually came from a colleague in the same field because the job description (not the job ad) is part of our personnel policy and since we understand the by-laws in the overall policy to be a legal document, sometimes there is confusion about if the personnel part of policy also has legal implications.

  104. Jen RO*

    And another one: how do I best support a report who might be having health issues in the future? One of them will, as far as I understand, trigger randomly and cause her to be out for anything between a few days to a few weeks (kidney stones that have to be eliminated naturally). The other might be even more serious, but for now it only requires some tests (which we are all hoping will turn out fine).

    I’ve told her she can take time off for medical appointments whenever she needs it, even with short notice, and not to worry about work in case she does need to have surgery or be hospitalized. She is a very good performer (and someone I like on a personal level), and I was a bit sad today when she said she was afraid of telling me about her latest health scare because I’m probably sick of them… it’s *health*, I could never be upset at someone for being ill!

    1. MaryMary*

      Is working from home an option? Or flex hours? If those are options, make sure she knows it’s available and that you support her using it.

      I’d also ask her if she’d like information on FMLA and short term disability (if your company offers it). Some people don’t want to even think about that stuff until they need to, others find it very reassuring to be able to contingency plan.

      1. Jen RO*

        Of course I left out the most important part – we’re not in the US, no FMLA, no sick leave without a doctor’s note.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Be as flexible as you can with workload/hours. Like, if there’s a way she can work from home she might prefer that at times, or make up some hours on the weekend.

      And this might be an overreach but as a native midwesterner when anyone is having health issues I have a compulsion to make a casserole, so maybe something like a gift card for food delivery for when she’s going through it – might be nice to not have to worry about dinner.

      1. Jen RO*

        I keep reading about people bringing casseroles over and I’ve never seen this in real life! I keep wondering if it’s a American thing or my friends are just not that warm… I do know that I would feel odd if someone from work (even my closest friend) cooked for me. Except for that one time when I got homemade cheesecake on my last day. OMG it was so good.

        1. Felicia*

          I’ve never seen this in real life either (I’m Canadian, if that matters), though I have seen it in movies. I’d feel weird about it too, especially because I’m very picky with food , whihc I can generally hide fairly easily from people at work, so I don’t think they’d know.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            THe idea also is that it’s something to put out for other relatives who are visiting. So if I give you a lasagna you have something to serve to your mother in law or whoever else is dropping by.

        2. Katie the Fed*

          I think it’s a very midwest thing. I was talking about this with another friend and we were talking about how if someone has a baby we don’t feel right unless food has been given. Babies, sicknesses, funerals – you must bring food! I don’t actually bring a casserole usually, although I have for new moms – a couple things to throw in the freezer that can be easily reheated. But I have to know someone really well to cook for them, and know they’re cool with my cooking. Otherwise I might also bring muffins, or a bag of goodies from trader joes, or a gift card for Seamless or some kind of food delivery.

          But yes, I have a total compulsion to feed people going through anything traumatic and I know friends of mine from the midwest are the same way :)

    3. Iro*

      It sounds like you are already being very supportive. I wish I had reported to you when I had my health issues!

      Instead my manager at the time kept sending out these passive aggressive blast emails to the entire team each time I had to unexpected call in sick saying “it’s important to be at work everyday” which would result in everyone looking sideways at me. :/

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Reassure her that you trust her and you appreciate her as a worker/performer– the fact that she was afraid to tell you about her health scare speaks well of your relationship in this case because she doesn’t want to let you down, and while that’s a nice motivation, if she doesn’t take care of her health, she will definitely let you down. I totally get where she’s coming from and where you’re coming from, and both sides are really hard.

      Here’s what I would do in your situation: take her out for lunch or for coffee, just the two of you, and tell her that you think she is great and you want her to stay great, so she needs to take care of herself. Tell her that you absolutely trust her to keep up with her work and that if something is not working, you will discuss it with her before it becomes a problem. Tell her you value her enough that even if she has to take leave for a period of time, you will want her back on your team when she’s ready (assuming that’s the case, of course!). You may have to tell her this a few times, but definitely do the face-to-face.

      I hope her health issues resolve soon!

      1. Jen RO*

        Thanks, I think this is the best solution. Especially the coffee! I will schedule or next 1-on-1 in the coffee shop instead of the usual meeting room :)

    5. HR Manager*

      I would not communication anything specific yet without knowing what you would need to do to be flexible and supportive. I would just say I’m glad you are comfortable sharing this with me. I think you’re a great performer, and I would like to keep you, so if we need to discuss different options at some point, I am willing to do that. But let’s get your tests results back so we know what you’re dealing with, and what you might need.

    6. C Average*

      Make sure she has a designated backup who can take over anything time-sensitive that’s part of her workload and that that person has the necessary access, training, etc., to be able to take care of business if/when she’s away.

      1. Jen RO*

        Yeah, that’s the problem… we are already stretched thin so there is no backup. If she does need to miss work, my plan is to cover for her myself. It’s probably a crappy plan, but I feel uncomfortable telling the other people on the team that they have to pick up her part too… (although rationally I do get that’s the obvious solution)

        1. C Average*

          Yeah, I definitely know the “stretched too thin” situation.

          I guess, then, the key thing is to let HER know her stuff will be taken care of while she’s out, so that she doesn’t have to add work-related guilt and worry to her list of unpleasant conditions she’s dealing with.

  105. Newbie Analyst*

    Looking for a good side hustle. I’ve always loved real estate (Apartment hunting is my favorite sport.), so I’ve been considering looking into a Leasing Agent certification. The startup cost and time involved is low if it doesn’t pan out. Anyone familiar with the industry and know what challenges I should consider? Much appreciated!

  106. Regina*

    Coworker A recently confided in me that our Coworker B, because of her own strongly held religious beliefs, asked A if A feels weird or even gross for living with her serious boyfriend before marriage. A told me that although she likes B, she felt upset by this, but her response was to try to justify it to B, saying they were planning to get married soon. I also live with my significant other, of 7 years, and I’m worried that one day B might be religiously convicted to ask me the same question. I’m not religious, and I don’t see any reason to justify to B something that I don’t see as weird, gross, or wrong. I also don’t believe that this is appropriate work chit chat. If the situation comes up, how should I address B in a way that says I won’t tolerate that kind of questioning? I don’t want to just smooth it over like A did, making her think it’s acceptable. B and I share a small office, so it would make things uncomfortable if I went to HR without addressing her directly first. She is generally nice and I would also feel bad about going straight to HR. (but maybe that’s the right thing to do?)

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I don’t think this is something you need to go to HR.

      I agree though, it’s good to have a game plan for dealing with this because when I’m caught off guard I might react like Coworker A did and later kick myself for explaining myself when what I should have done was tell Coworker B to mind her own business.

      So, how would I answer a question like that? I like the following approaches depending on how I’m feeling and how much slack I want to cut someone:

      “Wow, what a personal question![and then walk away]”
      “Oh, you know – I prefer not to discuss religious beliefs!”
      “Wow, did you really just ask me that?”
      “Wow, what a loaded question – you know that’s a pretty personal issue, right?”
      “Did you really just call my living situation weird and gross? Please don’t do that.”

      1. Iro*

        I like the last one best. :)

        It makes it clear that you are not ashamed of your living situation while also shutting the conversation down.

      2. Shell*

        Listen to Katie the Fed. You can be nice but firm about it and use a sort of “…wow” kind of tone, or maybe raised eyebrows and a pointed look. Me, I probably would be at least a little bit curt, but that’s why you should listen to Katie, not me. :)

        I kind of see red when I hear about questions like these, because a previously-very-close friend did a dramatic friend-dump on me (at 1 in the morning! At my house!) for the same reason (i.e. my atheism contradicted what she believed is the correct lifestyle choices for all). So things like this raise my blood pressure pretty much instantly.

        But no, this is not appropriate for work. At all. And whatever her religious beliefs, Coworker B should know better.

        1. Gene*

          I’m with Shell here, listen to Katie The Fed.

          If it were me, mainly because I enjoy poking at the religious, I would find the most bizarre part of whatever particular religion in which she believes and respond with the same kind of question. “No, do you feel gross about ritual cannibalism every Sunday when you’re taking communion?”

          But, since you aren’t me, and you have to share a cube with her, Listen to Katie The Fed (that should be on a pillow).

          1. Katie the Fed*

            aww shucks – thanks! Oh god, I got in SO much trouble at Sunday school as a kid for asking that exact same question about transubstantiation. (and I’ve never gotten an answer that I find satisfactory, either!). It was one of the few times I remember my parents having trouble not laughing when they were punishing me.

            1. Artemesia*

              LOL I still remember the anguish and horror in response to my question ‘Why do we call God ‘he’ — ? when I was 5 years old in Baptist Sunday school. They were really squicked out and I got the impression they thought I was suggesting a perverse relationship with Mary should God not be ‘he’– even then that seemed obviously dumb to me.

      3. nep*

        The last couple here seem to give a little bit too much credit and attention to lame and inappropriate questioning / prying.
        The first two are good — very simply, not going there. A person doesn’t have to ‘show’ s/he’s not ashamed of her/his living situation. Let others think what they will.

    2. EE*

      Wow.
      Definitely talk to her before going to HR. If she’s generally nice, she probably has no idea how inappropriate her chitchat was, and will respond better to you than to an impersonal directive.

    3. The IT Manager*

      Answer her question: “No. Absolutely not. Why would you ask me that?” Or leave off the “why would you ask me that?” so you don’t continue the conversation.

      1. Helka*

        This. I think this is the kind of thing that comes back to “‘No’ is a complete sentence.” If she asks you that question, you tell her “No, absolutely not.” And leave it sit. Don’t continue, don’t ask a question, just answer her — and then, ideally, move along.

        “Do you feel weird or gross living in sin?”
        “No, I don’t. How about those TPS reports?”

    4. Rin*

      “Do you feel weird or gross prying into other people’s personal business as a way to judge them?”

    5. C Average*

      I grew up in a religious part of the country and am non-confrontational by nature, and I tend to answer this kind of question with “You know, let’s just not have that conversation, OK?” But say it in a way that makes it not really a question.

      I use this when my atheist acquaintances want to convince me there isn’t a God, as well as when my parents’ conservative friends try to convince me my lesbian sister is an affront to God.

      Then if they push it, I say firmly, “I’ve told you we’re not going there.”

  107. EE*

    So I started a new job recently and my manager and I cannot communicate.

    “OK, maybe I should start again…”
    “Let me see if I understand…”
    “I can’t read your mind.”

    This is the way we are talking to each other all the darn time. Not about emotions or culture or string theory but about practical work things. I don’t know whose fault it is or if fault is even relevant. Nobody’s being aggressive or (deliberately) obstructive – we just can’t get through to each other.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Would it help to outline things via email before talking in person? There are a few people I have a hard time talking to because they go on tangents or whatever – email is GREAT for those things.

      1. EE*

        I wish! She prefers in-person to e-mail. She actually told me yesterday: “Don’t waste time e-mailing; just come over.” It does make sense for the series of tiny information-gathering things I have to do for the auditors right now, I must admit. It’s not as bad as it sounds.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Can you tell her this? That you feel like you’re having trouble communicating and you really want to have a good working relationship with her, so what does she need you to do to make it work better?

          1. AnotherHRPro*

            I agree. Chances are that if you are noticing it, so is she. Talk to her about it. Let her know that you sometime feel that you are not both on the same page and ask what you can do to change that. And then stop and listen.

            For what it is worth, I have a boss who starts conversations half-way through. I always have to stop and ask her what we are talking about. I’ve talked about this with her and she has told me to just call her on it. Now when I do, we both just laugh about it.

          2. fposte*

            And if this is a good conversation, you might even say “Is there somebody who you have really good communication with in the office? Is there anything you can think of that she does that makes it easier that I could do too?”

    2. C Average*

      I have a colleague who used to talk past me all the time. We have drastically different backgrounds and work styles. I had to explicitly say to her, “You know, I love having a graphic artist on the team and I’m continually impressed by your talent. But sometimes I think that you forget that I’m NOT a graphic artist and we don’t share a common knowledge base and vocabulary. When you talk to me about the layout of the site and the different graphic elements, please remember that I don’t know all the terms you’re using. You’re going to have to dumb it down for me.” And to her credit, she has. And now I know what she’s talking about! I’ve learned a lot about user interface and other cool stuff from her, now that she’s communicating on my level.

      By the same token, I try to use really clear language when I’m talking about digital sports products, my area of expertise, because yeah, it’s pretty obscure and complex stuff.

      If you can figure out whether there are particular topics, vocabularies, etc., that are getting in the way, it’ll help you make your case more effectively.

  108. ArtsNerd*

    Can anyone share their tips on staying focused during conference calls? I really, really intend to pay attention but it is just. so. hard.

    1. Colette*

      I play silly games on my phone. (Think freecell – something that doesn’t use the language part of my brain but keeps me busy enough that I don’t go off and read email or something else that will actually distract me from the call I’m trying to listen to.)

      1. C Average*

        I used to do this, but I got busted by my manager. I tried to explain that I actually can focus BETTER when I’m playing Minesweeper while listening/talking (heck, I do it to my own mother, with whom I really enjoy chatting), but she overruled me on the basis that it looks unprofessional, which . . . yeah, can’t disagree.

        Now I take notes if I know it’s information I’m going to need.

        If it’s a call I’m just stuck on and don’t really need to be on, I take it on my cell and pace in the stairwell during the call. I find I can focus better when I’m in motion than when I’m forced to sit still.

    2. Sascha*

      I close email and chat and basically anything that can be a distraction for me. I also take notes, that helps me focus on the conversation, even if I never use them.

    3. Lisbonslady*

      Have you tried taking notes, just jotting down a few ideas here and there? That helps me focus and the act of writing it down usually helps cement things in my memory, I rarely go back and read the notes at all but in the moment, they can be helpful. Good luck!

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Doodle! Get a notepad and do some old-fashioned doodling. Take notes, make a doodle, but do it all with a pen and paper. Get away from your screen, that’s the key thing.

    5. Gene*

      I literally shut down my computer if I don’t need it (if I do, the browser and email are shut down) and put my phone in my locker.

  109. Federal Jobseeker, "Structured Interview"*

    I have a job interview coming up for an attorney position with a federal agency. The interview is a “structured interview,” where the questions and follow-ups are apparently set in stone. Does anyone have experience with this, or suggestions for how to handle? I’ve already reviewed OPM’s guidelines on structured interviews, which was moderately useful, but am looking for more information.

      1. Federal Jobseeker, "Structured Interview"*

        Thank you! I looked but didn’t find anything before, so this is very helpful.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      This sounds obvious, but answer the questions! We usually have to keep notes on all the answers, so if you don’t answer something completely, it will be harder for them to make a case to hire you. So if it’s a 2-part question – make sure you answer it. Don’t do the “I’ll turn this around to something I CAN answer” trick – we’re onto that. Just answer the question.

      Ask some good questions – that’s really where the dialogue can move to something less stilted. I love good candidate questions – not the suck-up ones, but the ones that show genuine curiosity.

      If the agency has a strategic plan, review it before you go in. Since this is probably a more senior position, they might ask more strategic questions like that.

      Be patient with the process! It took 6 months between interviewing for my current job and getting it.

  110. Just lurking*

    Do references just have to be bosses/direct managers? Can they be coworkers you worked with closely on projects? I’m revamping mine and realizing I have no idea of its a “good” idea. Then again in the past I did use a “bad” idea and list a family member, but as my employer, which he was. And I got hired! So I guess my resume worked. :) But I’d like to get on removing him since its in an unrelated field I am now in.

    2. soitgoes*

      I’d say it depends on how many references are required. Coworkers who have higher ranks than you might be okay. For some jobs, it’s acceptable to list academic advisors.

    3. HR Manager*

      It will depend on the reference checker’s preference and the role you are applying for, but I’ve sometimes included other references. Since I often have “internal clients” as an HR person, my references have also been the heads of departments whom I was their HR Lead for.

      It’s sometimes good to get a selection across roles, so that you know whom to call on, based on what the company is asking for.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      Anything with job searching is just general trends and guidelines. There are no hard-and-fast rules. Have there ever been people who got jobs by listing other co-workers instead of managers as references? Sure. Is that the best way to do it? Not really.

      I would say if you’re in an “I don’t want to tell my boss I’m looking” kind of situation, I’d recommend using former bosses/direct managers as references, and then picking a current non-boss co-worker (but one who can actually speak in detail about the work you do, not just someone you like going out to lunch with).

  111. No to Stella and Dot*

    Wouldn’t it be great if it were federal law to post salary ranges for positions? I know that if you work in government or academia, it’s pretty standard to have this information posted, but in the private sector, it’s very rare. That way, you would know before you even apply if the salary would be a dealbreaker for you.

    I know there are several reasons why you wouldn’t want to include a salary range in a job posting, several of which have been discussed here.

    1. Burlington*

      I’m generally in favor of salary transparency… I think most of the problems associated with it only exist because it’s not the norm. If it were the norm, nobody would care.

    2. Iro*

      I’m in favor of salary range transparency, and I also think companies should be required to publish the average salary by position, gender, years experience, as well as the sample size for each bucket.

      1. Sascha*

        That data is available in Texas for state institutions. It’s very telling. I got on my university’s website and found out some really interesting stuff.

              1. mt*

                They generate the most money for the school. Schools like Ohio state pay for their entire athletic program just from revenue from the football team

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      It saves me SO MUCH trouble to post salary ranges in job ads. Part of that is that I really don’t have room to negotiate, and that nonprofit salaries are sometimes so much lower than what people expect (and no, making a case for why you are worth way more won’t help – I am worth way more than I am paid, too!!).

      I did have a very strange experience this week where someone turned down an offer because of the salary. Which has been clear during the entire process. She said she just hadn’t really looked at the math. What the hell? Thanks for letting us go to all that trouble and mess up our timeline when it was impossible for you to take the position.

      1. MsM*

        I’ve done that (not to the point of getting an offer, but applying for something at what I thought was the low end of my range and then realizing it was too low). Sometimes you get so caught up in the job itself that you don’t stop to think about stuff like travel costs and childcare and how all that’s going to add up to affect your take-home rather than the raw number. Stinks for everyone, though. :(

      2. Sascha*

        I’ve interviewed a few people who, despite posting the salary on the job posting, and being very clear during the interview that the salary was non-negotiable, they still got to the offer stage and tried to negotiate it, and then walked away. I guess I can’t blame them for trying, but yes, it’s frustrating. They probably think there is still hope and that we’ll be so in love with them that we’ll break the rule. We’ve lost out on some good people, because what we pay is just too ridiculously low most of the time. Except for those athletic coaches! :)

    4. BRR*

      And salary grades aren’t that great all the time. My current position in academia was listed in a grade that ranges from $50k-$92k.

    5. Cristina in England*

      It is the norm here in the UK to post salary ranges, and I can’t imagine not having this info before applying! I agree that US-based private employers should do this.

    6. mt*

      The problem is that there is a lot that goes into salaries than just titles. Im the lowest in the facility by title, but i have a very specific skill set, and have the second highest salary

  112. Iro*

    I’m curious what the strangest question you have ever been asked by a co-worker was.

    Mine was “Did you have slaves on your campus?” after talking about my alma-mater’s beautiful antebellum architecture.

    1. Sascha*

      I think the weirdest I got was “Why don’t you want to talk about vaginas?” from a coworker who did not have a good grasp of work-appropriate conversation topics.

      1. C Average*

        I think I would pretend to mishear. “I dunno. I’ve never been to China, so I guess I just don’t have a very strong point of view about it.”

      1. Iro*

        Wait, seriously?

        You think that just because a universiry was built in the Southern U.S. pre-civil war era that there might still be slaves there? That’s crazy!

        1. Iro*

          Ohhhh! Yeah, I can see how you can read it that way.

          No we were all talking about our respective alma maters. All of us graduated post 2000, definitely way beyond the time it would be appropriate to think there were any slaves at the campus.

    3. HR Manager*

      Not a co-worker but one of the strangest was “What’s a wedgie?” Asked by an international student in my college days.

    4. EvilQueenRegina*

      Mine was “How do you use this landline to send a text?” while pointing at this ancient old phone that she had at the time.

      1. C Average*

        Hahahaha! (I have totally sent text messages to my parents’ landline and wondered why they didn’t respond. D’ohhhh.)

        1. Natalie*

          Some cell companies will actually read a text to a landline. A friend of mine once got a post-date text (“I had a great time, want to go out again, etc) on her answering machine in a robot voice.

    5. Katie the Fed*

      “How could you bring girl scout cookies in? Don’t you know they support planned parenthood?”

      (I’m not even going to print my response here. It was NOT one of my more diplomatic moments.)

    6. C Average*

      Mine was, “I wonder how you yell in sign language?”

      I’m not deaf or anything; a group of us were just musing one day on the challenges associated with certain disabilities. I think the question first emerged because our director is legally blind, but he is a freaking dervish of productivity.

  113. Student*

    In the discussion of the guy who didn’t want to pay people during their training period, Alison said something that I had been thinking about for a long time. “It’s not like when you start a business, you get a list of every possible area of law that you now need to think about it. There’s no comprehensive listing.”

    I think having a list like that would be a great way to promote entrepreneurship and small businesses. Fear of breaking the difficult-to-find-or-understand law is a big barrier to going into business, especially for those on the lower end of the socioeconomic totem pole. Obviously, there are many rules that are industry-specific, like hygiene rules for restaurants and HIPAA rules for medical practices. I dream of a wiki specifically focused on making employment rules and starting-a-business concepts understandable and less scary. Put general, common legal and best-practices items in one section. Then, break-out sections for rules in different states, different industries, and maybe different countries. How to start a bar in San Diego. How to start a software company in Chicago.

    Anyone else wish this was a thing?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It would be soooooooo long, and that’s even before you got state-specific. I think that’s why it doesn’t exist. Doesn’t meant that it couldn’t, but I think it would be hard to make it user-friendly at that length.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        It’s probably easier just to put a lawyer on retainer and run things by her. And make sure that professional liability insurance is paid!

        1. Student*

          That is pretty expensive for people who are trying to run, say, a food truck or a home cleaning service. It’s clearly a good investment once a business is up and running, but it’s a hard thing to ask of someone trying to start a simple business.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            Hmm, that’s a good point. I think I’m way too risk averse to ever start a business. But thank the sweet lord that others aren’t the same way because there’s a food truck nearby that has carnitas to die for.

          2. Anx*

            Yes!

            There were several times when I was unemployed that I wanted to start a very basic business, but I terrified of accidentally running afoul of the law. I was looking to make $5k total for the year, so a lawyer was totally out of my budget.

      2. Natalie*

        I think you could cover the basics, though. My state has a pamphlet like this for landlords that covers the basics of landlord-tenant law in the state and from what I hear new landlords find it helpful. I think you get a copy automatically when you get your rental license.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          You can totally cover the basics — but there’s so many more ways to run afoul of employment law, which you’d never even think to look up. That’s the problem I was talking about yesterday — you don’t know what you don’t know, so you might not even realize there was laws relevant to, say, an employee moving to another state that you should be looking into.

      3. Student*

        I think it’d be super effective if it focused as much as possible on the “critical path” elements. You don’t need to get down into the details of exactly how often lunch breaks are required in the state of Mississippi, but you could do a lot of good by telling people something like, “There are usually laws about break durations and time intervals between breaks. You need to look them up and abide by them.”

        Heck, a statement like, “There are exempt and non-exempt jobs, as well as contractors. The differences are very important and impact many things. Jobs are classified according to law, not according to business preferences” would cover many bases and help raise general awareness.

        Possibly, a site focused on how to find the relevant information, rather than on the actual specific answers, is what I ought to dream of.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      No, it is scary.
      A while ago, someone was telling me for a certain city in CA you have to have over 500 permits before you can open a business. Just hearing that takes my breath away. I cannot see how that would motivate anyone to open a business. I guess that is the point.

    3. C Average*

      As someone who works in knowledge management, you are describing my personal nightmare.

      Maintaining that sucker would be insane. Laws are changing all the time, and keeping up with the changes requires access to legal databases and a whole lot of time. And knowing that people were relying on the list to make legally sensitive business decisions would exert all kinds of pressure.

      People think in terms of CREATING a resource like what you describe. Alas, I know what goes into MAINTAINING it. It is hard.

      An entrepreneur is WAY better off establishing a relationship with a good lawyer who has the access, the skill set, and the professional duty to provide the right kind of legal advice to the specific person who hired him or her.

      (By the way, IANAL. I am just VERY well-versed in knowing when to lob the tough questions to Legal.)

  114. CollegeAdmin*

    Need advice quickly! I had a second round of interviews for an internal position and am trying to draft thank you notes. What do I say, particularly to the one person I met with the first round and already sent a note to?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      “Dear…
      Thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me again today about the x position. I left our conversation even more excited about the possibility of this role. I particularly enjoyed talking with you about x. Thank you again for considering me for this role”.

      Thank you note = 3 to 4 short sentences. Longer starts to sound like gushing.

      1. Iro*

        I usually make them a bit more personal than Ashley the NonProf exec says, but then again I tend to only pursue jobs with groups of people who are more casual/personable so its a good culture fit.

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          Yep – totally. If you know the person well, you could tone down the formality a bit.

  115. puddin*

    My new job search is going well. I have three interviews in process right now. There is a clear front runner that I am very stoked about! Another one is with a new position at my former company where I got laid off. I have some concerns about that one. Most times when I think about it, I think I will let it go. But I will at least participate the next interview to feel the vibe I get before closing the door.

    In a quick follow up to my post about our (lack of) raise policy here combined with the hiring freeze. About 2 people quitting per week right now. Heard rumors that upper mgt is ‘very concerned’ about losing good talent and over-taxing the remaining employees.

    1. fposte*

      Good news indeed, and good luck to you going forward! (If you celebrate with alcohol, you could say “the proof is in the puddin.”)

  116. No name*

    Question for the managers out there.

    I was hired about a year ago part-time. When I was hired, I asked what the shift schedules generally were and was told that they were usually 6 hour shifts. Seeing as I work part-time and live an hour away, this was perfect for me. I turned down a higher paying offer that was closer to home because of this (and the fact that this was was more in-line with my career goals).

    Of course, when I was hired, it was a different story. I am always very flexible, but I work five four hour shifts every week. I asked my supervisor if there is any way to change this and she was dodgy, but she said that she would ask her boss. She later said that her boss said no (I’m not entirely sure that she asked)…That is until they lost an employee (due to this same issue; she’s a new mom and didn’t want to work five days a week), for months they gave me more hours and a four day work week (working Monday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday).

    I got our new schedule today and I am working 5 days a week, and do not have two consecutive days off; (I have Sunday and Tuesday off). My supervisor said that her boss wants to include me on more management activities, which is great. However her boss doesn’t want me to be out for two consecutive days because she may need me (I am great at putting things together at the drop of a hat).

    Many other employees have two consecutive days off, and having to work every Saturday is not great. Having to hear my boss complain about it having to work ONE Saturday is even worse!

    I’m already looking for another position. I know some of this is just complaining, but I feel like I am being punished for being competent and I feel like I was given the bait and switch. Also, though I have a fuel efficient vehicle, an extra day’s commute gets pretty expensive for someone working part-time. It also takes 8 hours out of my own time.

    Is there any way that I can get my crappy schedule fixed? I think I have a good rapport with my boss’s boss, and this is becoming a deal breaker. However I work in a very competitive field.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      It’s not clear to me if you’ve actually talked to your boss about this. Have you actually laid out what the problem is and what outcome you’re seeking? I think that’s your first step if you haven’t.

      1. No name*

        Thanks for answering. She knows that I am unhappy; I mentioned it a few months into my position and after hearing no response, I mentioned it again a couple of weeks later. For a while it was fine and she had me scheduled longer shifts. It looks like she has gone back to the old schedule, which I am very unhappy with.

        I do want to add that I am always flexible; staying late when they need me, coming in early or on my day off on occasion, but at this point I feel like they are abusing me. It makes me mad because they lost another great employee this way.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          You know, it’s ok to not be flexible and to set boundaries. I got really burnt out in a previous job because I took on way too much and I started looking for another job, and my boss found out and was shocked I felt burnt out. He didn’t know because I never told him.

          It sounds like maybe this is something you need to do every time the schedule is made. “Oh, Miranda, I can actually only work ___ and ___.” Be prepared that you might not get what you want but you can at least ask.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I want to say that not having two consecutive days off is really, really hard. You can’t really quite relax with just one day at a time.

      I would ask for a time when you can sit down and talk about your schedule. Depending on how much you know about the business, it would be ideal if you could be prepared to propose something that would meet a lot of their needs and also yours. Perhaps try breaking it down into all the different parts, and then seeing if there are aspects of some that can be improved. It sounds like you’re willing to be flexible on some things, it’s just the current combination is too much. The parts I see here:
      1. Not having a weekend
      2. Working every Saturday
      3. The length of your shifts
      4. The overall number of hours they are giving you
      5. Not knowing whether this is going to lead to something sustainable.

      Maybe you’d be happy, for example, if you could get two weekends per month and a clear idea of where this is headed. Or instead, all of your hours in 4 days. Or instead of that, 10 more hours per week. It might be the case that changing some of these would be harder or less convenient for them that others, and you may or may not be able to see that from your role.

      Let your boss know that you’re willing to consider a variety of possible ways to move the pieces around. It sounds like the really value you!

      1. No name*

        Thanks, I think you broke it down for me in a more rational calm manner than I could.
        I think that I will get farther with my supervisor’s boss than with my own because my supervisor has been known to be dishonest about this kind of thing before.

        I am flexible, however all these things together add up to a really poor work-life balance. As someone who works part-time, that should be the one benefit that I have.

        Thank you for your well thought out answers.

  117. Anonyby*

    Tips on cover letters for those without a lot of experience?

    I find myself struggling to write cover letters (and resumes, to be honest) that are outstanding. Part of it is that my current position (that I’ve had for several years now) has a lot of downtime without a lot of responsibilities or any room for real growth. (I’m a weekend/floating receptionist for reference. All of the big tasks, like ordering supplies or paperwork shuffling, are handled by the main receptionist with time left over.)

    1. fposte*

      Alison has some great posts findable through the “cover letters” keyword link to the right–have you checked those out? There’s some really good advice in there.

      1. Anonyby*

        I always have a tab with the cover letters keyword open (and usually the posts I find most helpful) whenever I work on one… but it always feels like the advice is more applicable to those who have more accomplishments that they can point to. As it is I can get all of my normal duties at my regular office done in only half the time I’m there, and the rest is spent just being a physical presence just in case someone walks in or the phone rings.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      It’s okay if you don’t have accomplishments you can quantify. I’m assuming you’re not applying for a Fortune 500 CEO job, so it’s likely that other candidates will be in a similar place in their career. Possible things to include: What do people tell you they appreciate about you? What positive feedback have you received? Have you been able to find ways to do tasks for efficiently or quickly (even if it wasn’t necessary in order to do all your work)?

      What skills are needed for a floating receptionist? I’d assume that you have to be pretty flexible in order to go from one place to another – working with different people who might want you to adapt to their own systems, maybe? s? What do you feel like you do better than other people in that role? Are you always positive? Do you ever deal with difficult callers? If so, that’s a GREAT skill. What strategies have you developed to deal with difficult people? If you want to post more about what you do I can think of more ideas.

      When you get to a point when people ask why you’re leaving, you’ve got a fantastic response – you’re current job has downtime and you want to be busier and more challenged (assuming that’s true).

      1. Anonyby*

        On my performance review at the end of the year, my manager praised my reliability, helpfulness, and willingness to help out on even very short notice. A previous coworker complimented me on my handling of incoming calls (quickness in answering and tone of voice on the phone), though that seems really small to me.

        There is a certain degree of flexibility needed to float between offices, as well as be able to remember each office’s hours and idiosyncrisies since they aren’t completely standardized across the company. I don’t really feel like I handle the receptionist role better than my peers, but I’m mostly comparing myself to those who know each office better. What I’m really good at is repetitive work like data entry or envelope stuffing, but those take up a very small portion of the job. I try to be positive, and 99% of the time manage it. I get some difficult callers & clients, but not many and not any of the really extreme cases.

        I’m at a real estate company, officially based out of one of the smaller corporate offices (we’re large enough to have a bunch of corporate offices and even more franchise ones). A large portion of my job at my current office is just being a friendly person available. There is a minor amount of equipment maintenance, daily mail sorting (which isn’t much), and recently I’ve been asked to help maintain a binder of properties for sale (I’m given a stake of print outs from the properties listed on the MLS that week and enter data from them to a spreadsheet, and then take a list of cancelled/sold listings and remove those from the binder), as well as double-check a coworker’s work to make sure the closing documents from our sales got uploaded to e-storage.

        I’ve spent more than half of my time with the company at a different (MUCH larger) office where I was busier… but a lot of the extra work I did there was either made obsolete by the switch to paperless, or was various forms of filing.

        And that’s definitely one of a few interview-appropriate reasons I have for leaving! There’s also a lack of room for me to grow, and it’s just plain time for me to be moving on.

  118. TheNoobie*

    I started at a new job a few months ago, and this year I have some work travel to Europe. A lot of my travel occurs over weekends and this trip in particular will take up a weekend plus a few weekdays (I work a regular M-F 9-5 job salaried). Would I be out of line to ask for a few days off after I have done my business to stay a few extra days overseas for my own personal use? Assuming that the cost of flight would be the same if I extended my stay and I would cover all additional costs like food, hotel, etc.

    I know someone who has done this, but he was not a very good worker and took advantage of the company in other ways so I didn’t want to rely on this person as the standard of acceptable practices.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Oh no, not at all. So many people do this. My boss pretty much knows if I’m going anywhere I’m going to take leave en route. I’ve had some of the best trips that way – I route my flights home through a third country and stay there a few days. Personally I think it would damn near criminal to NOT take some vacation on an international trip, but then again I live to travel.

      The worst thing that happens is your boss says no – it doesn’t hurt to ask :)

    2. C Average*

      Yeah, do it. Everyone I know does this. It’s totally expected behavior.

      Like Katie said, the worst that can happen is that the answer is no.

      I hope you get to go!

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Do it. Totally normal. It might work differently for you, but I wouldn’t make you charge your PTO if you had worked a weekend.

  119. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Land speed record, we let a new hire go after three days this week. Absolutely the new record by quite a bit.

    We’ve hired a bunch of new people the last 6 weeks and my trainers are feeling it. The good news is, it’s a great bunch and they are speeding along.

    The outlier this week wouldn’t follow directions, kept asking questions about things that weren’t relevant, by day two had an “attitude”, on day one asked if she ate at her could she leave half an hour early every day, and kept pestering for a calculator (which none of us use and which, she didn’t have to do any math yet anyway) four times in two days.

    My trainers said please please please don’t make us go through this farce. So before they could write into AAM about me, we said, okay, we’ll cut her loose.

    Look for the letter to AAM from ex-new hire about how badly she was treated in her new job, though.

    #sometimesyoucantwinwelcometomanagement

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Good move. Honestly, every time I’ve had a “oh god, we’ve made a terrible mistake” with a new hire in the first week, it’s RARELY gotten better. I mean, people screw up – that’s expected and fine. But if you don’t have the right attitude or interest in improving, I don’t see it getting better.

      I wish we could do that!

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I don’t think we’ve ever terminated in less than two weeks. My people are stretched thin, though, with three more new people this Monday. HR was right on top of it Rose with the term process also, so it was able to happen quickly. (Understandably, sometimes you have to wait a couple of days for HR to have the time unless the employee is knife wielding or such.)

        This one hit every single flashing red warning sign. I also don’t think I’ve seen anyone check every warning box so quickly either. Wooosh. And we were just saying how outrageously fortunate we’ve been with the new group. Great new hires. (My British Guy is doing fabulous. :) )

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I did this one time. Well, it was about 8 days. It was such a relief! I agreed to let a manager under me hire someone I thought was a poor fit because she felt so strongly about the candidate. I was SURE it wouldn’t work, but decided to let that manager learn on this one. On day one, she disagreed with me about something (minor). The next morning, she told me she had prepared a presentation for our board of directors to show them that she was right (HA! She was absolute entry level – the board would have been like “why the hell are we hearing at all about this petty thing at all, and from this unpolished person?”). We let her try her hand at doing part of her job. She went to a client site (with me) and immediately told them that she hadn’t printed any of the materials she needed, and did they have a computer and printer she could use. Fired that afternoon. I got a good night’s sleep.

      Part of the reason I let this happen was that she wasn’t employed – it would have been incredibly cruel if she had quit her current job just to get fired a week later.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Part of the reason I let this happen was that she wasn’t employed – it would have been incredibly cruel if she had quit her current job just to get fired a week later.

        God yeah. We are a bunch of soft hearts, all of us on the management/hiring team. It’s probably easier to get a job with us if you *don’t* have a current job than if you do because we feel the responsibility of being really really really sure before someone quits a current “real” job.

        Which, of course we do hire people with jobs they have to give notice to, but it’s easier to take a chance on someone who doesn’t have a job to give up.

  120. AcademicAnon*

    So due to grant funding running out where I currently work it looks like I’m going to be out of a job sometime this year. So I’m currently updating the resume and looking at putting up a linked in profile. I work in bio research and I know my resume sucks but I’m stuck on some points like:
    How do I convey that I have progressed in my job since I started when my job description hasn’t essentially changed? I know this is hard without specific examples, but my job description is basically “do research in this field”.
    I’m not opposed to moving subfields or even into another branch of STEM, but how do I get that across? A detailed cover letter showing what I’ve already done and how it can be applied to the new field?
    Part of what I’m currently doing could be done remotely (bioinformatics lite) and there are jobs in that field but they’re not remote jobs. Even worth applying for and then asking to work remote?. For a variety of reasons we’re not moving in the near future.
    Also, grant funding as a whole has been very bad for a while. From when I started here more than 10 years ago, more than half the techs are gone due to people losing funding. So it’s probable I would have to find something short to longer term to fill in between research jobs. I could do CSR where my spouse works (NOT working directly for him) but would it be bad to not apply if we could financially swing it?

    1. fposte*

      On the progression, I think it depends on how long you’ve had the same job title–if it’s for the full ten years, it’s probably worth saying something in your cover letter about your growing from washing test tubes to managing teams of junior researchers. If it’s under five years I don’t think you need to make a growth case.

      If you’re applying to other subfields or branches, it’s clear just from that fact that you’re willing to move fields. What you need to do is frame your work in a way that makes it *valuable* to the new area.

      In general, I’d say no, don’t apply for a job with no telecommuting option stated and then ask if you can telecommute. The one exception I’d make is if you know it’s done not just in the field but at that institution, and if you’re not a stretch/cross-field candidate but a strong fit for the job.

      Are you asking if it would be bad not to apply, or are you asking if it would be bad to have a work gap? I don’t think anybody will care if you don’t apply :-). I presume you’re starting your hunt for more relevant work soon and hopefully will find something before there’s much of a gap anyway. Is a CSR position pretty much yours for the asking, though? It sounds like you’re considering it a fallback, and I’d want to make sure I really could fall back to avoid any unpleasant surprises.

      1. AcademicAnon*

        Yes, the job title and description has not changed over that time frame, which isn’t unusual at my location. It’s also only in the last few years that the uni has mandated yearly assessments. I can show progression in some areas as those projects have produced publications, and there will be a major publication that will probably come out after I leave.

        And I am worried about a work gap, especially if I have to leave academia to industry. The CSR position is sometime I know will open up in the same approximate timeframe as when I leave due to an increase in growth, and if I wanted it, would be highly likely to get it.

  121. anonintheuk*

    The UK deadline for filing personal tax returns is next Saturday, the 31st. I am hoping to retain my sanity, but it’s going to be difficult.

    I left work on time to go to the theatre, and have just logged back in to find an email from a client who has scanned and sent me a bunch of information, all of which is for the wrong year. Some of it is three years old or more. Some of it is for the tax year we are in at the moment(ie not the one for which we are doing the tax return).

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH.

  122. Helen*

    Hi all-
    I’m starting my first “real” job since graduation at a pretty well known company and while I’m really excited, it’s seems like things keep popping up to damper my enthusiasm. The latest-I will not have my own desk, instead I’ll be using a “mobile cubicle” that no one owns, and people just come in and grab an open mobile cubicle to use for the day. Of course that means I won’t be able to store any belongings at work. My manager said he’s working to get me a storage locker, but that doesn’t make me feel any better, considering high school was 4 years ago and I was really looking forward to having my own desk at work. Should I just suck it up or bring it up as an issue with my would be manager?

    1. Jennifer*

      Oh, no, not the Chiat/Day thing again! I thought people had learned their lesson on that crap!
      http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/7.02/chiat_pr.html

      I don’t know how much you can do if they won’t give you your own desk, for whatever crackass reason. Is that a policy for everybody or just newbies? Are you a temporary hire or part time? Are they short on space? Is there some kind of reasonable reason for doing this or are they just trying to be “hip” about it?

      If it were me, I’d get a little red wagon or portable locker on wheels (don’t laugh, I got one from a knitting store), because who knows if you’ll even get a storage locker at a place like that. I’m sorry you have to deal with that. Ugh, ridiculous.

    2. fposte*

      For the moment, at least, suck it up. It’s not unheard of, and it sounds like you’re not the only one, so complaining would probably look special snowflakey. Once you start, figure out what gets people desks, and at six months or so make your case. (Or if it’s straight out opportunism when somebody vacates a desk, be prepared to be opportunistic.)

    3. C Average*

      +1 for “suck it up,” for the reasons offered by fposte.

      Another thing: If you don’t want to be viewed as a chronic complainer in the workplace, you’ve got to choose your battles, and you may find that this desk situation isn’t the most annoying thing about your job. Spend some time trying out the arrangement, and then figure out if it’s the hill you want to die on and start building your case.

      Sometimes the stuff you think will bug you isn’t the stuff that does bug you. Had someone described open-plan offices to me at the start of my career, I’d have been horrified at the idea, and I know many people do hate them. But I find I actually like the environment quite a bit and would probably choose it over an office with a door. I’d have predicted it would be high on the “stuff that bugs me” list, but it’s not even ON the list.

      Good luck in the new gig!

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        That’s a great point about how hard it is to know what will bug you. When you’re new at a job, you can only complain about a very, very small number of things. It might be the case that once you start, there’s really something else that’s more important. I’d at least way three or four weeks.

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      No don’t bring it up, you’re new to the firm and the work place in general, mobile desks are horrible but it’s part of the office set up you don’t want to get labeled as a complainer or appear as naive or clueless.

      What you might find is people stick to the same desks regularly anyway, it it won’t bother you as much as you think it might.

    5. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Give everything a chance. Give everything and everyone a chance. Give it all a chance with a bright smile on your face and an eager attitude about how happy you are to be there and how excited you are to learn how to do your job.

      Complaining about *any* amenities or any processes in your first month at a job is such a black mark you might not come back from it. If your chair squeaks, wait a week at least to say “geeeze, this squeak is making me a little batty, do you know if there’s another chair I can have?”

      The vast majority of new people behave exactly this way when hired so the ones who don’t — the ones who come out of the box requiring special attention for their special requests — stand out like a sore thumb.

      After you’ve been there a month, you’ll have a feel for the place. If everybody your level works in open cubes, that’s the way it is. If only some do, they’ll be a time in conversation to ask how you get on the list for a perm desk. Maybe you’ll have to make a business case for why your job (and not you personally) needs a perm desk. You might have to be there six months before you know enough to make that case.

      Do not suck it up! You haven’t even started yet. Don’t go in thinking you are sucking it up. Go in thinking what a great new adventure this is going to be. Until proven otherwise (after 1 month) you have gotten a great new job, working with great new people, and are going to have the time of your life.

      Now good luck. Go knock their socks off and make them happy they made such a great choice in hiring you.

    6. Helen*

      Thanks everyone! Thanks for reminding me to just try it out and see how I like it. I’m actually trying to be more open minded and this will be an interesting challenge. I don’t want to stand out negatively, and this might not even be as much of a problem. I won’t know until I’m working there so I’ll hold off bringing it up and see how things go.

  123. C Average*

    I’m late to the party on this one, but I’ve got a curious situation I’m trying to puzzle out.

    So, I’m a knowledge base author, which is a pretty specialized role at my company. There aren’t a lot of us.

    I’m taking an HIIT class on campus with four other women, and one of the other women is a knowledge base manager on another team. As soon as I mentioned my title, she perked up and said we should chat. We have, quite a bit. She is looking for someone with my skill set as well as a few additional acquirable skills. She’s made no secret of the fact that she’d like to recruit me to her team, although I didn’t really indicate that I was looking. (I am looking. Have been for a long time.) I think I understand what the job would entail, and I think I would be good at it and I would enjoy it.

    At the same time, I really like her and am already enjoying the new friendship quite a bit. I’m someone who has few but very rewarding friendships; my “besties” and I go back decades. I’ve often thought I’d really love to find a kindred spirit who lives in my town and has things in common with me. This woman seems like the first person I’ve met in years who has the potential to be that kind of friend.

    Thanks to some experiences I’ve had in my current role, I am adamantly against being close friends with a colleague. If I were to join her team, I’d have to set aside any possibility of hanging out with her. And that makes me sad, because she seems like exactly the kind of friend I’ve been wanting to find.

    Would I be crazy to forego a promising job opportunity for a shot at a fun friendship? Or, conversely, would I be crazy to forego a shot at a fun friendship for a promising job opportunity?

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        I was just about to start typing the same thing. ha!

        Will you say a bit more, C Average, about why you feel so strongly about not having friendships with colleagues?

        I also tend to keep my friendships and my work quite separate, but I do have one friend that I work with. It’s the type of friendship where it’s not at all uncomfortable for the roles to be different in and out of work. That doesn’t work with every relationships, or every combo of personalities, but when it does work, it’s great!

        1. C Average*

          Yeah, I can definitely elaborate on that.

          My current manager got hired just over two years ago. She did a lot of things really right, and I admire her a lot professionally. We’re very different people, but I can step back and see that she’s good at her job in a lot of important ways.

          She made clear that she expected to be friends with all of us. Not only did we all get Facebook friend invites from her, but she asked me a week later why I hadn’t accepted. (I hadn’t accepted because my friend list is pretty tightly curated and I didn’t want to invite my new boss into that circle.) She kept asking. It got awkward. I eventually accepted the request.

          She invited us to her gigs. (She’s a singer/songwriter.) She invited us out for drinks. She planned more group outings than every other boss I’ve ever had put together. And I just don’t enjoy her company all that much. She’s someone who likes to be the center of attention and takes pride in being a free spirit and a risk taker. It’s endearing in small doses, but the more time I spent with her outside of work, the less I found myself liking her. And I resented the fact that I was spending more time with my boss, whose company I didn’t enjoy, than my friends, whose company I actually do (also in small doses; I’m a classic introvert).

          She also became very close to my peer, which made for a weird dynamic. As I pulled away from group outings and nights out with the boss, my peer and my boss became besties.

          Disastrously, I created a Facebook group for the two of them labeled “friends I don’t actually like,” not realizing THEY COULD SEE THE LABEL. Awful. So awful. But at least the truth was out there. We had a very tense meeting, talked things through, and have been able to find our way to a purely professional relationship that seems to work.

          The whole situation made me aware that when you become pals with your boss or colleague, it’s not just about the two of you. It’s about the other people on your team who aren’t part of your bubble of bestiness. I don’t ever want to create that kind of climate for someone who’s just showing up every day trying to do a job.

          I actually like many aspects of my work, but I’ve been desperate to escape for months, largely because it is so freaking awkward crashing these two’s tea party every damned day.

          So, that’s why my stance is pretty adamant. If I’m off base and my outlook is skewed by one weird situation, please set me straight! Previous to this manager, I was never more than strictly-in-the-office warm acquaintances with my immediate team, and that was much more in line with my comfort level. I think my assumption is that that’s normal.

          1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

            WOW! That is awful. And bizarre! That is not at all what I imagine being friends with most bosses is like. She sounds like she has some very serious personal boundary issues. I can totally understand why you feel burned.

            That said, this doesn’t sound to me like a story about being friends with your boss and it turning sour. It sounds more like a relationship with a boss who has really terrible personal boundaries and created a bizarre and uncomfortable working environment because of that. Since you said you’re choosy about close friends, I bet you don’t like being friends with anyone who has poor boundaries, and if this new potential boss has good boundaries, I can’t imagine that it would play out anything like that last situation.

            I mean, I can’t even take all of that on board, but when you’re the boss you have to be so careful about issuing social invitations because it can easily feel like an assignment, and it sounds like in her case, it was! Like she was using her employees to create a social life where she’s the queen. That is not normal.

            So, I guess my overall point is that it might be useful to look at what differences there would be in the new situations. You could perhaps feel that out by spending more time with this new woman (something that not too far from professional – lunch? Drinks after work?) and see what you think about her personality and the way that she treats others.

            Also, total sympathy for you on the Facebook group thing. I need to go and check my Facebook labels!

            1. MsM*

              +1. Someone who you wouldn’t want to have as a friend demanding that kind of relationship in a situation where you can’t avoid them is very different from feeling a natural connection to someone and then having work get in the way of that. I suppose it’s possible this could turn out to be the latter, but I think you can sort something out like Ashley suggests where you go to lunch or out for drinks after work and be social without overstepping any boundaries. And I certainly wouldn’t pass up the chance to get away from your current manager.

          2. fposte*

            Oh, I remember you talking about that. It’s kind of interesting that your takeaway is stay away from combining friends and workplaces, rather than, say, stay away from Facebook. But something like that is kind of like getting an electric shock–you don’t necessarily control what the bad association is with.

            I’m actually really good friends with a few co-workers, and it’s worked okay for about 15 years; at this point even if it went awry I think I couldn’t blame work. But that’s academics, and we also have married couples in our department.

            So I don’t remember–how are you in your current position? Are you currently looking for another job? Because maybe you can continue in a kind of professional friends relationship while you stay where you are for a while, and then you can get a better idea of how important the friendship and the job prospect might be. I mean, if this were a romantic situation, people would be saying “You just met this person–it’s a bit early to be planning your life based on where she is,” and I think that’s worth thinking about in this case too.

            1. C Average*

              I think my key takeaway was “it’s a lot easier to not form work friendships in the first place than to extricate myself from unwanted ones.” I realize, looking back, that I didn’t push back against my boss’s really aggressive overtures of friendship because a) I didn’t see the problem right away and was just being my general go-along-get-along self and b) I’ve never had a manager behave that way and didn’t have any idea how to properly react. The whole thing got out of hand really fast, and it wasn’t clear how to draw appropriate boundaries after the fact.

              The Facebook thing, awkward and horrible as it was, was really just a symptom of that. I was tired of status updates from my manager and my colleague about their weekend road trip together or their fun night out or their matchy-matchy Halloween costumes, but I didn’t want to de-friend them because, obviously, the boss pays attention to who’s on her friend list. I thought, “I’ll just put them in a group and have my posts not broadcast to that group (because I didn’t want them commenting on MY stuff either–I basically wanted to leave the office and operate under the illusion that they didn’t exist except in my work inbox). The public-facing nature of the group and the horrible name were complete, total mistakes that I’ll never make again.

              Looking back, I think my experience must be somewhat like the experiences of people who get involved romantically with a colleague: “Sure, why not?” “Uh, this is not what I thought I was signing up for.” “This is definitely not working out.” “Having to see this person every day and deal with the awkwardness and antipathy is hell on earth and I am never, ever doing anything like this ever again.”

          3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            I hang out here way too much because I knew all of that.

            Okay, girlfriend, can we talk.

            What I think is, you are thinking too much. The magic of working with people you sync with is awesome. I am very work close with some of the members of my direct report team and it’s that sync that helps us produce amazing product. And makes our day so much fun!

            It is true that I don’t hang out outside of work with them but we do email/text/talk about things that aren’t work on off hours, so our relationship is more than just work.

            Maybe if you take the job the new friend doesn’t become the person you hit museums with every weekend but is instead the person you spend way more time with than your other friends (since more time at work) and you enjoy each other that way.

            Let the facebook thing that happened to you be history.

            1. C Average*

              Thank you for this. A personal testimony that something like this can work from a person I know to be sane, smart, and have very good judgment in these matters.

              I will forge ahead with an open mind.

              1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

                You are so sweet!

                This should work for you one way or the other. If the position doesn’t open up, then you’ll get a personal buddy out of it.

                I’m happy for you. (Plus, I know you want out of your current position, so, fingers crossed this is the one.)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Why not create a new category of “professional friends”, put her in that category and go see about the job. Win/win.

      There are people that I work with volunteering and the only way I see them is when we are working. I think hugely of these people. But this is a case of professional friends. It’s still a good, solid friendship.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        That’s a good point. I have a set like that too. I don’t invite them over to my house, or get them a birthday gift, but I do have several long term friendships that are centered around work.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        It’s funny– I have a couple of former co-workers whom I consider to be really close friends, yet the truth is… we have never hung out outside of work. I never really thought about it before. I mean, we’ve done post-work drinks and I’ve attended their weddings and baby showers and such, but we’ve never, say, met for brunch. It works pretty well that way, I just never realized before that they were categorized like that.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I get a kick out of watching how this works. The professional friends seem to be long term, enduring relationships with a fan club component. Yeah, like cheering each other on or pointing out “hey, you are good at X”.

    3. acmx*

      I think you should take a job offer it becomes available (and you enjoy being a KBA). You’ve been looking to get out of your current position for awhile. Eventually, you could move on from her team and become friends.

      Honestly, I’ve never been close friends with anyone I report to so I can’t speak to that. I do have a couple of work friendships, though.

  124. Jessica*

    Hello all, I’ve recently found out about this blog and it is highly addictive! Many a night this week has been spent staying up reading old posts and I’ve already learned so much. I haven’t come across one that has answered my question though, so advice would be greatly appreciated!

    What do I do when I am experienced, but don’t have a lot of references? Here’s my background:

    My first job was in HR for about a year and due to some bad planning on my part, I didn’t really keep up enough with anyone to have a reference, despite having great experience from it. After that, I worked for myself for about 4 years. I was sole proprietor and sold to retail customers… no one I could say knows my background or work ethic. I took a year off to care for my sick mother, so that has no bearing on my employment. My last job is the sticky spot. I was recently laid off due to lack of work, but my boss offered a reference. The thing is… I don’t want one from him. He’s a repulsive human being that called female clients all sorts of vulgar names, said gay people had no place in his business, made a horrible comments about other races and single parents (I’m a single parent), talked about abortion and religion *constantly* …the list goes on. And that’s in addition to him being terrible at his job. He frequently messed up work or didn’t do it at all, didn’t understand the legalities of his profession, and was fired by quite a few clients in my time there. If it wasn’t so horrible, it would be comical because he’s such a caricature of a horrible boss. I don’t respect him at all and frequently clashed with him about all these things, so I’m not sure he wouldn’t say something bad about me because of that. The catch… it was a two-person office. Literally no one else can speak to my successes there. So how do I navigate this? I’ve been using two people from a volunteer job I worked for years, but again, they aren’t really able to speak to my work experience. I’m really wishing I had worked for larger companies and hadn’t stayed as long as I did there. Thanks in advance for any help!

    1. BRR*

      Have a friend call him pretending to check references for you. They need to ask difficult questions so that it would be most likely for him to say something negative. Don’t rule him out before it’s time.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Did you have any contacts at your job that you worked with regularly? Can you reconnect some how? Would you feel comfortable asking them for a reference?

      Do you have clients from this recent job that you might approach?

      References can be a big deal, but maybe not. I have had very little problem with references and I am running on very few people, myself.

      Please never lose sight of informal references. These are people internal to a company or setting that happen to be friends/advocates of yours. So what does this look like? A friend told my boss- “Well I don’t know her (me)really well but I have seen her do X and Y and she is sharp about how she handles things.” That was enough for my boss.

      This whole situation was sheer luck. I never asked my friend to put in a good word, I was just forging ahead hunting for a job and hoping for the best. So forge ahead, maybe an idea for a reference will occur to you or maybe someone will just volunteer themselves in the moment.

      1. Jessica*

        I am thinking on the clients I worked with and honestly, I can’t think of any that I would be willing to reach out to. I stand by my work, but who do you think my boss blamed when he messed things up? His favorite thing to do was to tell me to do something one way, change his mind, not tell me, and then get mad when I wasn’t doing it the new way. Oddly enough, the one client I did the most work for and felt proudest of my contribution to just got arrested (not for anything related to my work, but something related to her business). *Sigh* It’s like an office soap opera. But I do appreciate your suggestion for helping me think outside the boss.

        Good news on the internal side, though. I just found a job opening at my friend’s husband’s company. He doesn’t know my work style personally, but I did work with my friend years ago. I feel like that would be a sufficient enough “in” to not be completely obvious about not having references. I do feel comfortable with my volunteer job references, just not enough to use two from the same place. And I’ve learned the hard way to keep up with references or seek people out!

  125. NewBooks*

    I just recently completed my MLIS and am considering parallel career fields, in case I can’t find an entry level professional job in librarianship. I’m interested in UX/UI and have an introductory knowledge of HTML and CSS, but no programming experience. I took classes in usability testing, user specific design in information consumption, etc. I currently work at an academic library, but it’s not a web/technical design role. I also have experience in assessment (focus groups, user feedback, survey). If anyone currently works in or near that field, I’d love to get your feedback. Any suggestions on how to boost my skillset in this area?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You’re a recent MLIS grad? Have you considered working in independent K-12 schools? I used to work with schools looking for librarians, and these days they actually want more recent MLIS grads, because they think the old-time librarians aren’t up on all the new-fangled technology.

  126. AvonLady Barksdale*

    It’s late but this just happened, so I’ll share. I’m working on a project that has a ton of moving parts, and in order to move forward with some of those parts, I’ve had to reach out to people who are basically strangers and ask them to do stuff for me (they get compensated, but I’m still basically asking for favors). Yesterday I thought I’d hit a wall because no one was getting back to me. I felt like my managers felt I was dropping the ball. I spent a lot of today figuring out a Plan B, and I reaaaallllly do not want to resort to a Plan B.

    First thing happened: two people I want to meet with about this project got back to me and are into it, and we put time on the schedule. Win! Second thing happened about 10 minutes ago (part of my concern is that I’m reaching out to people who are not 9-5ers): someone I asked to put together an event for me said yes, he’s totally into it, he gets my timeline, he is ON IT. Double win!

    Anyone else have any work wins for the week? I need people to share my joy– bf is playing poker and it’s just me and the dog, drinking our wine and watching Judge Judy.

    1. Jessica*

      I can’t lie… I’m unemployed and have been running into a few walls, so no work wins for me. So I’m just going to be happy for you and start fresh on Monday! I had to reply because your name made me chuckle… just started rewatching The Wire. Gotta love it.

    2. Jen RO*

      I am constantly shocked by my new product line. I have been here for less than a year (after doing the same job in a different product line), so I don’t really have connections yet. I reached out this week to a few people for extra info on some things and I got so much help, including a personalized demo! This would have taken weeks in my previous position!

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I love that, great story!

      I have been on a tear this month. I think it’s the vacation that you all made me take. I actually took time off in December, which I haven’t done for years, because you all are such Naggy McNaggersons about vacation days. (Wait, was that just your voices in my head and not what you said to me personally?? :p)

      Last weekend I started ripping apart all of my online advertising, which, is a ***massive*** project, but that generated a lot of new ideas and projects that I’ve been handing out to my folks and we’re getting done, done, done. I love new stuff and so do they so we’re all pretty jazzed and swimming in creative stuff.

      During the week, I worked on restructuring a number of operational processes and wrote a job description with duties for a newly created position that was spot on. (Again! Your voices in my head! Stop nagging me, okay, I will make sure that job duties are clearly delineated for people!)

      I’ll give AAM all my wins this week. :)

  127. Anonymous Educator*

    So I’ve been working either peripherally around or directly in schools my whole professional life, and I’ve always included a cover letter when applying to positions.

    I just found out recently that a friend of mine who’s worked for big tech companies has never submitted a cover letter, and yet he gets many interviews and job offers.

    So is this really a thing, anyone who works for large tech companies? You don’t have to submit a cover letter in that industry?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Cover letters tend to have way less importance in tech hiring. Way less. That said, a tech person with a great cover letter will often stand out because the competition either uses no cover letters or terrible ones.

    2. NewBooks*

      A friend of mine works in the tech field and never submits cover letters, but doesn’t have a problem finding employment. I was also baffled, but I guess that’s a thing.

      1. the gold digger*

        My husband is an engineer and has never written a cover letter. Since his first job, every other job he has gotten (and there have been many, because he worked at many failed startups in Silicon Valley) has been through networking. He and I have had very different job hunting experiences.

    3. CAA*

      I’d say it depends on the position in addition to the field.

      Only about 20% of the resumes I get for software developers have a cover letter. When I do get one, it’s rare that it would have any influence on whether or not I interview the person. The times it’s a positive influence are when it’s obviously been tailored to the position and when it fills in some gap or missing information that I can’t get from the resume.

      Cover letters can also do more harm than good for some people. I am definitely not going to interview the developer whose cover letter says he’s been told he’s “so versatile it’s like bringing an uzi to a knife fight”, though if he’d sent me just a resume, he might have had a chance.

      I do usually see cover letters for people-facing or communications roles like product management, marketing, tech writer, trainer, and I think they’re expected for those positions, even though it’s still a tech company. I’m a Dev Manager and I have one.

  128. Trixe*

    Wrapping up a good week. Phone interview with local university, one of the few positions I applied but didn’t name drop in CL so that was rewarding. Also, my six months of PT group fitness instruction led me to apply at new big national gym opening next month. I “auditioned” this week and was offered position! So adding a few more classes to my schedule which is more gas/grocery money, and increasing my experience. And my original gym is hiring a FT professional position much more in my field. My fitness instructor really wants me to keep teaching there so she couldn’t email the hiring dept fast enough to sing my praises. Feeling grateful, and optimistic.

  129. Peon Zug-zug*

    Had a situation at work this week that I’d love other opinions on.

    My boss has been talking about handing a project off to me for the last two years. There were good reasons he couldn’t do so until I got a promotion that I only recently achieved.

    The discussion about handing off this project was pretty intermittent (a handful of times a year over two years) , but it was repeated and it was consistent. He was showing me how stuff on the project worked. Had me do some tasks on it. Had me sit in on discussions of where it would go, and kept me in the loop on major developments on it.

    So, the day finally comes where Over-boss tells my boss to pass down management of this project. The Over-boss asks my boss for a recommendation of who it should go to. My boss tells the Over-boss that the project should go to a colleague of mine. This colleague is not familiar with the project, but has an appropriate skills set. The Over-boss invites us all to a meeting and announces the hand-off. My boss said nothing to me about it, before or after, but Over-boss clearly states that this was my boss’s recommendation. My boss never gave me any hints that I recognized that things had changed, never complained about my performance, and barely (as in, nearly never) works with this other colleague. My boss has since confirmed that he did indeed recommend my colleague for this project to the Over-boss.

    I am pretty appalled at how my boss handled this. Is that off-base? Is this a reasonable thing to have a discussion with my boss about? I don’t feel my boss has any obligation to recommend me for anything. I do feel that, after such a long and consistent commitment to recommend me for this project, he owed it to me to tell me when something changed his mind, or to give me some personal notification after the fact that he had gone in a different direction than I was lead to believe. I feel mislead, and my trust in my boss has evaporated over this. Losing the project hurts, and I have to admit it’s hard to separate the emotions. But, thinking that my boss will happily say one thing to my face and a different thing to the Over-boss makes me truly furious, enough so that I was considering looking for a different job.

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s totally fair to be annoyed; as you say, even if there were things in your performance that led him to change his mind, he should have let you know that he had done so.

      I’d initiate a meeting. “Since we’d talked about my taking over Project, I was surprised and disappointed that you decided to go with somebody else. I absolutely support your choosing whoever you think is best, but I would have thought that you’d told me that plans had changed. Is there something I can do going forward to make sure we have better communication in such situations?”

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I get why your upset but I doubt your boss meant to lie or deceive you but he certainly didn’t handle this well and was definitely thoughtless.

      It’s possible he underestimated your attachment to the project, depending on whatelse he has on his plate this up coming project might be nothing more than a blip on his radar, where as your excited by the new opportunity so it means more to you.

      Maybe you could ask your boss why the announcement was made in the way it was. I wouldn’t get in to questioning why the project was given to your coworker over you.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I did something similar to this once for, reasons, and it’s on my list of Bad Things I Have Done. I was so in my head for details/logistics/reasons that I completely forgot about the human element. I didn’t mean anything bad, I just forgot to consider it but, end result was bad for that person.

      The person called a meeting with me and told me how it made her feel. I apologized sincerely and put that on my list of Things I Won’t Do Again.

      Try the meeting first before you leap to must find another job.

      1. LovingTheSouth*

        One of my standard questions when interviewing job candidates is “tell me about a situation you handled poorly and what you’ve learned.” My assumption is that everyone has made at least one bonehead move in their career (I know I’ve made several), but as long as you learn from them, then you continue to grow as a manager. Any candidate who tells me they’ve never handled a situation poorly doesn’t make it to the next round since to me that means they (1) are lying, or (2) don’t have enough insight to know they’ve handled something poorly, or (3) don’t have enough managerial experience for the role I’m trying to fill.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      This stinks. No doubt about it.

      And I can see me making this mistake. I was not always the “brilliant” supervisor my group would say they thought I was. I was very much aware of my endless list of shortcomings and failures. That is one thing about being a leader- you suddenly realize how wrong you are.

      It’s totally reasonable that trust is broken- the boss primed you and pumped you up for this project and now it is totally gone, and after so much time.

      I have to ask you, sincerely-no snark here- do you want to remedy the situation? Or do you just want an explanation? Or do you need a punching bag or a good long five mile run?

      If you need a punching bag or a run- do that. Burn off that excess energy that comes with being PO’ed. Get that out of your system and come back to the question.

      If you need an explanation think about the different types of explanations and how those explanations will impact you. For example the boss says “Oh. I forgot.” That’s it, that is the explanation. If you decide that you want an explanation but nothing will ever bring back trust., then think about leaving your job.

      So let’s say you decide that in your heart of hearts you really just want to remedy this situation and stay at the job. This means when the boss says “I forgot, I am sorry”, you need to have a way to say “I am shaken at my very core here, but I want us to move beyond this and I don’t know how”.

      My last thought is off the wall. What if you found out that the reason for the change was because there is Unannounced Project in the pipeline that is way bigger than Project and he decided that he wants you on Unannounced Project instead. My point here is don’t let your anger get the best of you, until you find out that the situation is indeed utterly hopeless. Don’t let your anger rob you of something even bigger.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Such good points!

        Regarding Unannounced Project, I’m often inelegant when “saving someone” for something I believe is coming up. If I communicate too soon, and the project falls through or the specs change so that the person is no longer the right choice, I feel bad having to say “er, nevermind”. Which means I usually communicate too late.

        Another example I forgot about (and an example of too soon) , we had this “big” contract that other parties in the company had worked to win and the plan was for it to get placed in our division. Pretty large/long implementation process. About four months before launch, we decided that one of our reps would be the main point of contact and, I mentioned it the to the rep. Which, I forgot I even mentioned it to him. Many things happened next (mostly torture and pain) and as we got closer to launch we realized this was going to be a giant suck and not profitable at all. We changed the contact plan to management, rather than reps, so as to not suck rep time and cost them commission.

        When the project got announced to the division at launch, the rep was very upset he wasn’t the point of contact. I forgot I even told him about it! (see: too soon) Our main focus those months was figuring out how not to bleed out.

        This goes on my list of Things I Could Have Handled Better. We got this sorted but only because he came to me pretty much immediately. If he hadn’t brought it up right away so we could talk it out, he might have imagined many incorrect things about why he was “cut out”, when the truth was, he was being protected from losing time and money on a bad deal.

      2. Peon Zug-zug*

        I talked to my boss, to let him know I was very disappointment specifically in how he handled the decision, and not with what his decision was.

        He told me that he’s a perfectly great communicator and it’s my own fault for not realizing this would happen. He doesn’t accept that he did anything wrong whatsoever.

        We had exactly one conversation about my workload being too high, months before. At the time, I gave him my rationale for being behind on his project (I was handling something much higher priority, backed up by the Overboss. Boss’s work had no deadline, and had been a lowest-priority item for 1.5 years prior, and he hadn’t communicated to me that the priority had shifted to Highest Possible Priority…). In the intervening time, I’ve focused almost exclusively on what he told me his top priorities was. He has no idea I did this, though, because he hasn’t talked to me for two months (as in, literally, zero communication of any sort whatsoever). The level of actually communicating with him in any regard had been very low since last June, as in he’s been on travel most of the time, answers about 1/10th of his emails, and has one-on-one meetings less than once a quarter with me.

        As far as I understand from reading between the lines, this is basically my punishment for a science experiment going wrong. The science process was correct, as far as we can determine, but the results contradict our hypothesis. He was, for unrelated reasons, demoted off this project. He’s angry about that, angry that the results were undesirable, and he’s angry that we didn’t know sooner, and now he’s lashing out at me. He’s gotten badly out of touch with what’s actually going on at work, but still making decisions as if he knows what is happening.

        At this point, I’ve decided that my boss rewards people who don’t work for him more than he rewards people who do. I’m not going to do future projects for him until and unless he demonstrates that he can communicate like a reasonable human being, deliver bad news like a human being instead of like some rat, and deliver punishments that are appropriate to the crime. His over-reaction to this is so far off base compared to what was actually going on that I am very thoroughly convinced that he shouldn’t be managing projects. Lucky for me that he got demoted off project management, because otherwise I would be looking for a new job.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Wow. What a sequence of events. I am hoping this means he is no longer your boss, but maybe that’s not what it means. At any rate it sounds like you have a good clear analysis of who this guy is and how he does things.

  130. Tiffany Youngblood*

    How do I add things I’ve accomplished in college classes to my resume?

    I’m studying nonprofit management and through some of my classes, I’ve been able to complete a couple things that I think are worthy of a place on my resume. For example, last semester in a PR for Nonprofits class, I conducted a communication audit and wrote a communication plan for a local nonprofit agency and they have actually used parts of it. This semester, I’m taking a grant-writing class and will be writing a real grant for a real agency that will potentially be submitted by them. I think that’s an accomplishment, even more so if it results in real funds being received.

    I think listing courses under education takes up a lot of page space, so can I just throw a couple bullet points on with these accomplishments under my degree? Or is there a better way to do it? Or am I wrong and it shouldn’t go on my resume. I’ve certainly got other accomplishments through my internship that are just as impressive, if not more so, but the communication audit/plan specifically shows some skills that I haven’t been able to use as much in my internship due to the nature of my projects.

    1. MsM*

      I think the place you’re really going to want to highlight it is your cover letters, but I definitely think it’s worth including. My current resume lists some of the nonprofit projects I did under my degree, and my contact information includes my LinkedIn profile so anyone who’s really interested can find the rest. When I was looking for jobs immediately post-graduation and those projects were more recent and relevant, I would either list one of my jobs as “student consultant” and put the projects under there, or create separate sections for professional and project experience, depending on whether I was using a one or two page resume. I’m not sure which of those is the best or preferred solution, if any, but I didn’t have trouble getting interviews regardless of the format.

  131. Masters Degree Searcher*

    My last day was Tuesday, and I started new contract job Wednesday. Tuesday night, my mom called, screamed at me when I bluntly told her I had no interest in practicing law, then threatened to financially disown me (though my new salary is in the 60k range) so I’m surviving, I guess. Then she wouldn’t hang up the phone despite telling her I needed rest and proceeded to keep me up late at night so I ended up sleep deprived for the first day of work and had to take 2 shots of starbucks powdered coffee to stay awake.

    Thankfully, Thursday was nice–my boyfriend and his mom treated me to dinner for restaurant week.

    My mom is finally on e-mailing/slight speaking terms and I’m seeing her and my dad tomorrow which I’m kind of worried about. I hope nothing crazy happens. I wish I understood her.

    Or actually, maybe its good I don’t. Because then I’d be as insane as her.

    1. Jean*

      I remember you shared this in a previous thread. Thanks for the update. I’m sorry things aren’t much calmer, but good for you for standing up for yourself.

      I’m glad you have supportive people in your life like your boyfriend and his mom. I hope that you find your way to inner peace about your mom and her inability to accept your own reasonable decisions. IMHO you have the right to carve out a tranquil life for yourself. Judging from your avatar (“peace” … the rest is too tiny for me to read), you feel the same way. That’s a good sign for your future happiness.

      Would it help for you to practice delivering some firm but polite and calm* lines that set limits? Examples below. I hope I’m not practicing therapy here without a professional license [or any other qualifications ;-) ]!
      — “I’m sorry you feel that way. Let’s agree to disagree.” Follow-up by either changing the subject or politely but clearly ending the conversation.
      — “I’m sorry you feel that way. I really can’t stay on the phone any longer. I have to go to bed now. Let’s talk again soon. Good night.”

      Re wishing you understood your mom…something, somewhere within her is bothering her deeply. Maybe she trying–clumsily–to express concern for your well-being, or worry that you’ll have a financially unstable life if you don’t become a hardworking, highly paid lawyer. Or maybe she’s frustrated at not being able to brag about “my daughter the oh-so-impressive lawyer.” Whatever her reason, she’s not entitled to cause you this much distress just because you’ve made a reasonable career decision after considering your own skills, abilities, and preferences.

      Sorry to write such a long reply. Short version: Ouch. Internet hugs. Best wishes!

      * Keeping it polite means keeping it tranquil, not for their benefit but for yours! The situation is already stressful; why pile onto yourself the additional misery of having to calm back down after exploding in anger?

    2. fposte*

      Wow, that sounds like an unpleasant conversation, but I’m glad you told her.

      And I’m still thinking it would be good for you to find a therapist. “Then she wouldn’t hang up the phone despite telling her I needed rest and proceeded to keep me up late at night”–but that means that you wouldn’t hang up the phone either, and you had it in your hand and could have ended this conversation at any moment. It wasn’t that she kept you up, it was that you stayed up with her instead of hanging up and going to bed. Time to find some tools that allow you to remember in the moment that you’ve got a choice in the matter, and you can choose to go to bed and deal with her later :-).

      So if you’re seeing her today, remember: you don’t have to have any conversation you don’t want to, and you can walk away or even out of the house whenever you please. Your relationship is such that you forget it’s a choice to listen to her, but it is. Consider the possibility of choosing not listening to her.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      What is it with family holding family hostage on the phone??? I said to a family member, “I am going to see about a job.” Family member launched into a three hour discussion of “woe is me”.

      And I allowed it.
      That is the key part. Decide that you are not going to be held hostage on the phone any more. Your bed time is a priority for you and you must hang up, then say “Good-bye, I love you, I will talk to you later” and hang up. Yes, even if she keeps talking.

      I think you are correct in that her aim is to fill some unmet need inside her. Of course, we cannot do this for other people. Even if you tried you would probably not succeed.

      I hope you are looking at books about boundaries. And I hope you are figuring out what boundaries you would like to set in place. (It’s different for everyone.) Personally, I think limiting contact could be a solution for you. Frankly, I have no idea how you have remained this patient/calm this long. Perhaps you can suggest to her that she needs a check up or some counseling. When she protests, you can say that “There is something very wrong here that you would want to scream at me for hours over the phone. That is not what a healthy mother-daughter relationship looks like.”

      Congrats on your job- I hope you like it. 60k per year is nothing to sneeze at. You have done well.

      1. Masters Degree Searcher*

        Thanks all.

        Re: held hostage on the phone–I’ve dealt with this before, uttered “goodbye I love you tons” and hung up and turned off the phone, to wake up to 15 missed calls, 10 furious texts, and 5 hostile stomach-churning voicemails. It got so bad she permanently broke her iPhone’s volume sound system and had to get a new phone (which my dad and I found ironically hilarious). My dad is more quiet/doesn’t make waves than I, and it’s easier staying on the phone to avoid her breaking her own phone and taking it out by screaming at my dad about how horrible a kid I am (which happened in the past). I don’t hang up because I love my dad too and don’t want him to suffer more than he already has to.

        I am contemplating therapy. I’m not sure where to go/who to talk to. Also, I know I need help, but sometimes I wonder–re: background check, would this hurt me (ie. tried to seek mental/psychological help)?

        My mom still thinks I’m grossly underpaid for my degrees. I’ve told her my work is high-profile in certain respects (which is true); this piques her interest. She likes anything with allure I guess–a traveling, adventurous lifestyle that appears exotic to the (un)trained eye. I’m waiting for them to show up and quietly looking fwd to spending time with my boyfriend in the quiet city, hours after they leave.

        1. fposte*

          “15 missed calls, 10 furious texts, and 5 hostile stomach-churning voicemails.” And yet you have the same choice to ignore the voicemails and scroll past the texts that you do to choose to end the phone call. I know it’s easy for me to say, but she’s got you walking into your own cell, turning the key in the lock, and handing it over to her. Just slip out the back, Jack :-).

          I know plenty of lawyers who’ve had therapy, so it can’t be that preclusive–what industry are you thinking of where it would be included in a background check and would be a problem? Is it possible that concern is just a way your anxiety about therapy is showing itself?

          Possible ways to find a therapist: if your new job has an EAP, start there. If you have insurance coverage there that includes mental health, find the list of approved providers; cross-check them with the Psychology Today listings for therapists in your town to see what they say about themselves, and filter your search on the listings if there are things you think would be helpful like gender or faith-based approaches. Most of them have pictures, which makes them much less abstract. Then pick one and dial the phone. It doesn’t commit you to make a phone call, and I bet it’s pretty common for people to take a few of those before they actually make an appointment.

          If funds are really tight, there are suggestions for low-cost therapy in a post I’ll link to in a separate comment.

          I think you’re doing a great job by standing up for yourself on the non-lawyer thing, but I think having a trained professional in your corner would be really helpful, so I hope you’ll consider it.

          2. Beezus*

            Seconding on the EAP suggestion.

            Also, I wouldn’t worry too much about seeking help threatening your options later. I don’t think basic therapy support would show up on an ordinary background check, any more than treatment for pneumonia would. If you change your mind and want to practice law later, your mental health history might get delved into during the bar application process (the state has a lot more leeway in questions it can ask and barriers it can erect in the licensing process than employers have in the hiring process.) But 1) that’s not a path you plan to take, 2) basic help sorting through a family issue may not rise to the level of getting an actual diagnosis of a mental illness, and 3) if you’re upfront with your therapist about your concerns, s/he can be mindful of the language used in written notes and records to minimize any impact on you, and err on the side of caution with any official diagnosis.

            Re: the missed calls/voicemails/texts. Delete them without reading/listening. I mean it. You can! She honestly doesn’t have any power over her that you don’t give her. Your dad is an adult, and can deal with her, or stop dealing with her, as he chooses.

            1. Masters Degree Searcher*

              Thanks. Yup, I do delete the voicemails (which makes her upset even more).

              There was some slightly awkward tension. My mom literally had nothing to talk about because she’d been harping about the bar for so long. We ended up talking about cousins, arts & crafts, etc.

              I think my dad told her to stop mentioning “bar exam” in front of me because she didn’t bring it up, not once. She commented a couple times I was underpaid. However, when they were parked and about to leave, my dad went back to the car and my mom hissed “take the test as soon as possible!” when he wasn’t within earshot.

              Oy vey. Battle continues.

              1. Jean*

                +1 for the suggestions re finding a therapist, helping the therapist work with you in ways that won’t derail a future background check, and otherwise learning techniques to make contact with your mom less stressful and disruptive for you. Also +1 for Beezus’ comment that your mom “doesn’t have any power over [you] that you don’t give her.”

                >…”my mom hissed ‘take the test as soon as possible!’ when he wasn’t within earshot.”
                Oy vey indeed. However, your mom can’t continue the same old battle after you decide you’re going to do things differently, and act on that decision.

                According to “The Dance of Intimacy” and other similarly titled books by Harriet Goldhor Lerner, if you change the way you’re relating to someone, the other person is forced to make changes also. They may resent it bitterly that you’re no longer playing along but if you walk off the tennis court / stop doing the foxtrot / stop giving your mom any satisfaction from her in-person comments, phone calls, voicemails, and text messages they can’t continue to play tennis / foxtrot / harass you as usual!

                Hopefully you can give your mom lots of positive reinforcement for talking about cousins and arts & crafts.

                Apologies for speechifying as if this is as simple as deciding whether to wear pink or purple socks! I’m trying to be supportive. In my experience it’s scary and hard to create a new pattern in which you stay calm and remain focused on living your life as you wish, without letting the other person’s objections get you all upset and flustered. If the other person really cares about staying connected with you, eventually she will learn to live with your new approach (more or less), even if she still privately believes that her approach is better than yours. It won’t be perfect, but you’ll be able to dial down the tension.

              2. Beezus*

                Argh. Yeah, she’s got to stop that.

                My mom and I have That Topic that she has a hard time letting go of, that I really don’t want to hear about anymore. For us, it is religion. I love her dearly, but I made my religious choices pretty clear about 14 years ago, and they’re not open for discussion, and she has a hard time with that. I love her, and I completely understand that she’s coming from a place where she honestly thinks I won’t be okay if I don’t change, but for my own sanity I can’t listen to her tell me that my choices aren’t good enough – because my choices, added up, make me who I am, and it’s not okay to tell me I’m not good enough. I can’t be the person she wants to be and be myself at the same time, and while having a close relationship with her will always be something I want, if I have to choose between being close and miserable, and being distant while being myself, I’ve got to choose the latter. So, if she starts talking about it, I cut her off. I don’t defend my choices, and I don’t try to convince her that I am okay. I tell her that my life is my life, my decisions are mine to make, and I am happy the way I am, and that religion is not up for discussion. I’m willing to end a call with that point. I am willing to ignore her calls/voicemails/emails for a significant period of time to drive the point home. I haven’t had to make the point in five years now. We’re not extremely close, but we love each other, and I live my life and don’t dread talking to her.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          “and it’s easier staying on the phone to avoid her breaking her own phone and taking it out by screaming at my dad about how horrible a kid I am (which happened in the past). I don’t hang up because I love my dad too and don’t want him to suffer more than he already has to.”

          These are two adults. You are not responsible for their reactions or their relationships with each other. She is plowing you under and you are worried about her cell phone- nooo- she is a big girl she can get a new phone if she breaks it.
          And your dad. It’s his marriage. He needs to figure that out on his own, not up to you to protect him. What happens in that house after you hang up with your mother is between the two of them. Remind yourself that HE is agreeing to this relationship he has with your mother.
          I kept a copy of this poem on my fridge for years. I still find something new in it when I read it. Mostly I see it under “anonymous” but I just saw a man named R Gilles as the author. So I am not sure. It’s used in AA a lot, but I think it has value for most people.
          *********
          Letting Go
          To let go does not mean to stop caring,
          it means I can’t do it for someone else.
          To let go is not to cut myself off,
          it’s the realization I can’t control another.
          To let go is not to enable,
          but allow learning from natural consequences.
          To let go is to admit powerlessness, which means
          the outcome is not in my hands.
          To let go is not to try to change or blame another,
          it’s to make the most of myself.
          To let go is not to care for,
          but to care about.
          To let go is not to fix,
          but to be supportive.
          To let go is not to judge,
          but to allow another to be a human being.
          To let go is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
          but to allow others to affect their destinies.
          To let go is not to be protective,
          it’s to permit another to face reality.
          To let go is not to deny,
          but to accept.
          To let go is not to nag, scold or argue,
          but instead to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
          To let go is not to adjust everything to my desires,
          but to take each day as it comes and cherish myself in it.
          To let go is not to criticize or regulate anybody,
          but to try to become what I dream I can be.
          To let go is not to regret the past,
          but to grow and live for the future.

          To let go is to fear less and love more.
          ************
          We can’t fix our parents problems for them. Speaking as one daughter to another daughter- I tried a million different ways. It doesn’t work because there is always one more problem. Always. I went for counseling twice in my life. It has never come up in my job searches. I figure if it did keep me from getting a job maybe that job was not for me, anyway. Help right now is always more valuable than an uncertain job opportunity (that may never materialize) in the future.

          Please stop finding reasons not to go and just go. It’s a quality of life issue.

  132. Alder*

    I’m an art teacher, and lately I’ve been doing pretty well at finding jobs at museums and through nonprofits to supplement my steady part-time job. These positions are temporary, anywhere from one day to a few months. They pay well, but so far every one of them has had a months-long payment delay. Like I’ll teach a workshop one day in November and they’ll pay me for it in January, or I’ll work from January through April and they’ll pay me for it in May and June. This is something I agree to in advance when they hire me.

    The jobs are well-paid enough that it makes up for how annoying that is, and I have a normal job to live off while I wait for the money, so I’m going to keep taking them. But how is this not super illegal? The pay is usually referred to as a “stipend” or “honorarium”. I am in CA.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      It’s so annoying to have such a delay before payment, but accounts payable will often have a policy where they take maximum advantage of credit terms from suppliers, and what do you have to do to trigger a payment, I assume you’re sending invoices.

      I don’t know about the particular wage law where you are but I’m guessing if it’s legal it’s because you’re not an employee but are invocing them for services rendered.

      Why not check with you state labour board to see if the delay is legal?

      Another option is to negotiate payment terms when accepting the job, there’s a whole range of payment terms that are standard:

      Payment on presentation of invoice,
      7 days
      14 days
      30 days
      60 days
      90 days

      If you come to an agreement about when you’ll get paid you can put the due date on your invoice and that should get it paid quicker.

      Personally I think 14 or 30 days are the best payment terms so it’s not to quick for the company paying or to long for the person waiting for their money.

      For jobs that run over a number of months you can invoice in stages. So if you work January to March, you’d send three invoices. With a narrative like

      “Chocolate tea pot decorating – Jan 15”
      And the next one would be
      “Chocolate tea pot decorating – Feb 15”
      And finally
      “Chocolate tea pot decorating -Mar 15”

      And then set up a system with yourself as to when you send the invoices out. For single days you could take the invoice with you or email your contact with it that same day, for longer periods of work you could prepare the invoices towards the end of the month and submit them for payment then. Once you’re in a regular pattern youll be able to work out when the cash will come to you.

      I hope that’s not to corporate or over specced for what you need, but if I was freelancing or contracting that’s how imagine I’d bill people.

      1. Alder*

        Most of them actually don’t ask for invoices. I fill out the standard paperwork you fill out at a new job(W-4s? I-9s? I don’t remember), and they mail me a check. I’m not sure if I’m considered an employee- definitely not for the one-day paid “volunteer” positions, but maybe for the longer-term ones.

        1. Apollo Warbucks*

          In that case maybe you can just ask them to get you on the same payment schedule as their full time employees or ask them to pay you in stages for the longer running assignments.

  133. Anonyfuss*

    I was promoted internally, but I still have a few weeks before my title officially changes. In the meantime, coworkers keep telling me that they thought another member of our team was going to get this promotion. I have no idea how to respond to this, and so far I’ve just awkwardly changed the subject. Is there a way to handle it with a little more finesse? Can I expect it to stop once I’m working in my new role, or is that just wishful thinking?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You could gently say “if Jane is concerned about what happened she could go talk to Boss. But, I really don’t know what happened there, so I can’t say anything helpful.”

      Yes, I think it should go away. Your coworkers are sticking their noses in to a matter that is between Jane and your boss.

    2. Steve G*

      Not sure it would be wise to come back with any sort of response, I think it is best to just change the subject. 2 jobs ago, I had a similar thing, only I was the one not getting promoted, someone who sat across from me was, and people kept asking me why I didn’t apply for the promotion – I actually had, and they didn’t want me. So every comment about it was awkward for both me and the person promoted….

  134. Anon Today*

    I have a question for anyone who has gone through long-term unemployment and underemployment.

    How did you reconcile your desire to live and not wanting to commit suicide with being unable to secure the means to do so relatively safely and with the sense of worthlessness that comes with not having a job? In other words, I never felt suicidal, but I often felt as though society would rather I just disappear. I was lucky enough to have some support through that experience which made things easier, but I definitely spend some mornings feeling guilty for being alive.

    1. Jean*

      “…your desire to live and not wanting to commit suicide with being unable to secure the means to do so relatively safely…”
      Did I misunderstand? I can’t decide if you meant that you wanted to commit suicide but saw no way to do the job effectively OR if you meant that you wanted to find a job/a way to live more happily in the world but saw no way to calmly/efficiently/effectively connect with satisfying, productive, paying employment?

      Ouch! If you or anyone else reading this were/are/is feeling suicidal please find a hotline (look online). In the U.S. the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline phone # is 800-273-8255. Sorry if I’m overreacting. After my community was recently shaken by the suicide of a teenager, I want to tell everyone “suicide is not the answer; it’s just your depression talking.” (Am quoting someone–can’t recall who.) Each of us has something unique and wonderful to contribute to the world. Even if you feel totally isolated right now, there are people who care, who want to help you find your way to a better place in life.

      As for unemployed people absorbing the terrible social message that we’re worthless unless we’re employed and being paid for what we do”… I hear you! It’s amazing how many negative messages are floating around just waiting to be absorbed. Society seems to want everybody to live in a stylish immaculate home, be perfectly fit and slender, have a wonderful family life and work at something high-status, high-profile, and high-paying. NONSENSE! Life is messy and ordinary but it still has meaning and happiness. To repeat myself, everyone has something good to contribute to society. Some of us end up being CEOs or President or whatever. The rest of us give emotional support to friends/ family, or volunteer in our communities, or just keeping going through a long, discouraging job search. Heck, even gardening is socially productive: you get veggies, or herbs, or flowers that look pretty, cheer up people walking past, and provide food for the poor old bumble bees.

      In my case, I never felt guilty for being alive during my long job search but I talked down to and about myself (“I’m worthless” etc.) until a friend told me very bluntly (but supportively) to stop with the nonsense because I was in fact doing productive–even if unpaid–work.

      I also explored and found some new hobbies, one of which I’m hoping to turn into a small source of income. The public library was a great source of entertainment and escapism (yay for mysteries!).

      Short version: Being unemployed stinks big time, no question, but everybody has the right to be alive and to take some time to find their path. Anybody who says otherwise is either depressed or really mean and does not need to be believed. Now climbing down from my soap box!

    2. matcha123*

      This probably isn’t the best answer, but it’s the most honest one for me; and that is I know that if I were to kill myself it would take a huge amount of time and money to transport my body back to the US. I know that no one in my family has that kind of money and if I did kill myself, I wouldn’t be surprised if my mom killed herself after falling into a deep depression. That’s not something that I want to leave my sister to deal with.

      I guess during those times, I feel that no one gains from me being gone. And all the effort I’d have to put in to making sure things were properly arranged is more effort than I want to deal with. Honestly, even with a job I feel pretty worthless. So, you’re not alone in your feelings!

    3. Masters Degree Searcher*

      For me, I felt like my parents were forcing that thought on me.

      What helped was googling inspirational quotes, writing down 2-3 a day, posting them on Facebook, internalizing them. ie) “You are very powerful, provided you know how powerful you are.”

      I also explored every single possible avenue of funding (ie. set up a writing/international editing blog with method of payment, became a temp writer on a fairly-known website for a couple weeks, networked on LinkedIn, had glassdoor jobs emailed straight to my email account). I ignored all the naysayers, and photography was quite therapeutic for me. I also visited free museums in my spare time–and paid quite a lot of attention to the abstract art, because I felt the cacophany/chaos and color of them all spoke to me a great deal in this nebulous time of my life.

      I used the time as a meditative, healing sort of process, had inspirational quotes, did different art-related activities, and writing. Hope this sorta helps..

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Sense of self-worth does not come from just having a job. Yes, it’s true people do get a big boost from their employment setting but this cannot nor should it be the only thing in one’s life that gives a person a sense of self-worth.

      Sometimes self-worth can come from investing in ourselves. What have you done lately to put something into you? (This can be anything- exercise, a good book, time with a friend, anything that builds you up.)

      Self-worth also comes when we allow ourselves to feel our emotions instead of pushing them off to one side. This means crying when we need to, or running five miles when we need to. If you are disrespecting your own feelings, you need to have a chat with you.

      Above all else, this goes for anyone in a tough spot, do not allow yourself to fall into isolation. There are no answers in isolation and never will be. Find people to talk to.

    5. Katie the Fed*

      I can’t speak to the long term unemployment, but I can speak to the feeling of being completely useless to society. I think this sounds like depression to me – and your evil brain starts to play tricks on you and convince you of such silliness.

      So for someone feeling like that, I’d recommend:

      1) talking to a doctor or mental health professional as soon as possible. I know that’s hard when money’s not exactly flowing the right direction, but you need to know those feelings are symptoms of an illness that’s not your fault, and you need to get treatment.

      2) Volunteer work – I know I say this a lot here but I feel like volunteering has helped me through some really tough spots. It helps me realize that there are people who have it far, far worse than me, and it helps me feel useful to others. Sure, the world will keep turning without me, but if I’m helping people I feel I have some value.

      3) Do something with dogs – if you have the means, adopt one. Again, I say this a lot, but I swear dogs are like furry antidepressants (obviously not a substitute for real medical help though), because they just love that you exist and you really can do no wrong. You will never feel as worshipped just for existing as you will with a dog, and I think rescue dogs are especially grateful. Plus having a dog will get you out of the house and getting some exercise, which also helps.

    6. fposte*

      Totally agreeing with Katie the Fed–this sounds like depression trying to pass as reason, which is one of its stealthy tricks. Please understand that it’s not reason. Society would love it if there were no problems, but it doesn’t actually wish you to disappear, and feeling guilty for being alive is a depression thought. I’ve posted a link about finding low-cost therapy above–please consider checking it out.

    7. Beezus*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this.

      I dealt with some significant depression issues a couple of years ago. In addition to therapy and talking to people I loved and trusted, one thing that helped me was daily contact with a couple of people who thought I was unequivocally awesome, and trying really hard to see myself the way they saw me, and be the version of myself that they saw.

      Trying new things was another big one – for me, breaking out of activity/behavior ruts is helpful when I’m trying to break out of emotional/mental ruts. That year, I tried Thai food, guacamole, Zumba, and kickboxing for the first time. I passed up old favorite restaurants to try new ones. I visited a state I’d never been to before,and traveled by myself. I basically did not say ‘no’ to experiences.

      Exercise was a big help to me, too. The endorphins are great, and for me, there was something about working my body to the point where I didn’t feel like I could go on, and then getting that second wind and realizing I could do more and it still felt great, that echoed what I needed to experience on an emotional level.

      I know you think of the employment issue as highly relevant in this, but I don’t think it needs to be – plenty of employed and successful people are depressed, too. You don’t have to solve the employment issue to address the depression issue. (For me, it was the opposite – I was employed but terribly overworked and burned out. Addressing my depression helped give me the confidence and poise I needed to get a different job.)

    8. Anon Today*

      Thanks everyone for the responses!

      To clarify, I personally never did feel suicidal, although I was depressed. For me the worthlessness was very strongly linked to being neither employed or having savings. I know anyone can be depressed. In fact, I would get frustrated with some of the literature and worksheets on depression because in so many of the examples people had the money to do their laundry and cook a satisfying meal and other forms of self care that aren’t very expensive but still cost money, and don’t seem doable when you are broke. And the lack of societal support for the unemployed (no means to secure housing, food, job training, healthcare, etc.) exacerbated the feelings of worthlessness, as the state seems to agree (I was childless). It’s probably important to mention that I live in the US.

      The reason I asked was that I was wondering the other day what would have happened if I hadn’t found a job. Each year I was feeling more and more detached from society; I’d avoid socialization as I felt guilty because I was living off the kindness of my family (natural and found).

      I hope I did not alarm anyone. I was hesitant to post something because of the heavy content, but I was just ruminating a lot yesterday on how much better my life has become since landing a job.

      I think unemployment was one thing, and poverty was another. Because I’m still broke but I feel more righteous about it because I’m trying. I’ve been unemployed over a few weeks or months and it was completely different when I had some savings.

      (I would appreciate any insight from anyone who had some strong feelings about their self-worth directly related to their un(der)employment)

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I would guess that this impact men more than women, because a lot of society’s expectations for men still has a lot to do with work and being a good provider. I notice a lot of men really seem to equate their work with their value. I think women have it a LITTLE easier on that front, but we have a whole other set of societal expectations to look forward to failing at :/

        Sorry, that wasn’t an answer at all. Just a musing.

  135. Beezus*

    Very late update on my issues with my old department (five months gone) continuing to need my support. I posted three weeks ago that I was training them for a fourth time on some processes they’d been ignoring since my departure. We’ve got that stuff 90% of the way cleaned up (still not 100%, grrr, but I am refusing to do it for them – I will answer questions and I’m monitoring their progress because my boss wants to know whether they’re done – monitoring problems is part of my new job.)

    In the meantime, another team member put in his notice and is in the process of documenting his work and handing it off. They just got a new person hired to replace their last departure (half the team has found jobs elsewhere in the last 6 months), and the new person is supposed to take on a double workload now to support this latest departure. Notice Guy mentioned to me that he was having a hard time getting time with New Guy for training, and then New Guy pulled me aside after a meeting yesterday to say he was sure glad I was available for questions because all of this was a lot to take in. *headdesk* Their manager piped up with how nice it was that I was still with the company, so they can reach out to me with questions anytime. I’m keeping my manager posted of their actual demands on my time, but I’m not sure how to relay my concerns that they seem to be using me as a crutch to avoid addressing their turnover issues or their lack of process standardization and documentation. I have a meeting with him Monday morning, and I’ll bring it up then, but argh.

    1. MsM*

      “I’m not sure how to relay my concerns that they seem to be using me as a crutch to avoid addressing their turnover issues or their lack of process standardization and documentation.”

      Pretty much exactly like that, I think? You can be sympathetic that they’re understaffed and overwhelmed, but this is a problem, and they’re not handling it the way they need to handle it. I think you also need to be clear with New Guy’s manager that you realize this stuff is complicated, but this expectation that you’re always on call needs to be replaced with the understanding that you have your own work to focus on, and they need to make a concerted effort to figure out what knowledge they’re missing so you can deal with those issues once and for all instead of having to keep addressing it in bits and pieces.

  136. immaterial*

    I hope I’m not too late!!

    I just started an internship at a midsized public accounting firm. When I received my offer letter, it indicated that interns will receive time and a half pay for every hour over 40 worked in a single week. That is standard, as far as I can tell, for interns in public. However, one of the principals (the same one, in fact, who sent out the offer letters) casually mentioned that interns will not be paid time and a half since accountants, like lawyers, are expected to work overtime due to the nature of their work.

    We won’t receive our OT pay until the end of the internship.

    Should I bring this up? How do I do so without sounding un-trusting / etc?

    1. De Minimis*

      I’d bring it up to HR if/when the time came. You’re correct that it’s routine for interns to get overtime, and it even says so in the offer letter.

      I’ve mentioned before there’s been a lot of legal wrangling about overtime for entry level people in public accounting.

      1. De Minimis*

        Yes, and HR will understand that even if the partner doesn’t.
        The partner has the interns mixed up with the regular staff, who are generally exempt.

  137. Purr purr purr*

    I work for a Canadian company that requires frequent travel to the US to work in remote sites on a contractor basis, i.e. a US company hires my company to provide services. I’m not Canadian nor a US citizen. The Canadian citizens usually end up with a TN visa to allow them to do this work legally in the US but those of us who aren’t Canadian citizens are expected to lie and say that we’re entering the US for ‘training.’ I’m very much aware that this is illegal.

    Recently one of my colleagues tried to enter the US for a job under the guise of ‘training’ and was refused entry because he’d been ‘training’ too often. I’m pretty certain that our company name would now be flagged in the US immigration systems. I’m not comfortable lying to US immigration (and didn’t realise I would have to lie when I started employment with them – I assumed they would get all their employees a visa) nor do I want to ever be refused entry to the US since that’s something that would need to be declared when I enter other countries. I love to travel so something like that could impact me greatly, as would potentially being barred from even entering the US. It seems wrong that a company would expect their employees to assume all the risks by lying. I haven’t had to go to the US for ‘training’ yet but it’s only a matter of time and leaving the job is currently not an option (my industry is experiencing a downturn and jobs are almost impossible to come by). How should I bring this up with HR or my manager?

    1. BRR*

      I would go to your manager soon to figure it out before you need to travel. You could ask, “Since Jane was refused entry how should we handle when I need to travel to the US?” and if they don’t want to change strategy say, “I don’t feel comfortable lying to customs officials since it could get me and the company in trouble.”

  138. Minimum Wage Raise and Retroactive Pay*

    I work in retail, but I make a few over minimum wage. My state’s minimum wage went up as of January 1, 2015. One of my coworkers – in another position at the store – only makes minimum wage. He told me he gets paid $8.25 which is the state’s 2014 minimum wage. I told him the wage had gone up to $8.38. He said he was unaware and didn’t seem sure if that was really the case. I, too, wasn’t 100% confident as sometimes our state follows the trends and other times doesn’t. I came home and looked it up on the state’s Department of Labor website, and sure enough in bold letters is the status of the minimum wage at $8.38. Should I go back to work this week and tell my coworker that it is indeed the higher rate? Should I encourage him to talk to management? Will the company have to retroactively pay him and all the rest who have minimum wage rates?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Unless he gets tips as a regular part of his job, like a waiter, there’s really no leeway for paying someone less than minimum wage, and I’m 99.9% sure they will have to retroactively pay him enough to meet the minimum wage. But do you get paid every week? Remember, they don’t have to pay him the increased rate for the first check he received in 2015, just for work done in 2015, so if you didn’t get paid until 3 or 4 weeks after your first day of work, then your latest paycheck is probably still for work done in Dec. 2014.

      As Alison always says, you or he can phrase it as if trying to help/protect the employer, like “Hey, I noticed that my/his pay is below the new minimum wage, and I wanted to let you know so we can fix it before the state DOL notices.”

      1. Minimum Wage Raise and Retroactive Pay*

        We get paid every week (payday is Wednesday for the previous Sunday-Saturday). I know he worked January 2nd, which would have been on a check that was a mix of 2014 and 2015. If I see him tomorrow, I’ll remind him first. Like I said, I get paid higher than minimum wage; there wouldn’t be a reason for me to bring it up. Being a small company, they may not like us talking about our wages to one another even if that is not illegal.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          They may have put it in his check but showed his hourly rate as the old rate because most of the check was at the old rate. Maybe the next check will show the new hourly rate. I have seen that done with retail payroll. The amount paid is correct- it includes the couple of days at the new rate. But when you look at the statement part of the check it still shows the old rate. They change the hourly rate once the whole check is under the new hourly rate.

  139. 2 weeks notice*

    Hope I’m not too late but this can’t wait till this Friday. I just gave 2 weeks notice at my current company, but I was supposed to fly up to the main headquarters next week. The company is sticking me with the bill for the flight (they wont let me come up anymore) since it can be used for another personal future flight. I think this is pretty rude and possibly illegal (according to another post, but there was never a definitive answer). I know that taking time off during your two week notice is frowned upon but since they are sticking me with the bill for the flight, I’m thinking of taking 2 days off to get on that flight and enjoy myself before my new job starts, and I think that’s pretty reasonable. I am thinking of telling that to my current company. Thoughts?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      What? No, you don’t have to pay that.

      I actually wouldn’t go on the trip, unless you really want to, I’d just say “no, I won’t be paying for that flight. I understand that this came as a surprise, but I notified you as soon as I found out. Do you still want me to work the remaining two weeks or should I leave earlier? Great then – my last day will be XXX and I’ll pick up my final paycheck that day.”

      Or something like that. I think if you go on the trip it complicates the fact that you’re trying to leave and remain in good standing.

      Do NOT pay for that trip. That’s insane.

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