open thread – March 13, 2015

by Alison Green on March 13, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,526 comments }

{ 1,526 comments… read them below }

  1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    I’ve been waiting for this thread all week. My workplace is in some serious business-deal trouble, in a very long and convoluted story involving four different countries, several different companies, banks, international lawyers, embassies, and so on. The gist of it is that it’s very possibly in the next couple of months that my company will fold, since we’re not able to absorb a half-million-dollar loss.

    No one hates this job more than I do, nor thinks less of my boss than I do, but I’d really prefer to have a new job rather than drawing unemployment while still searching! We’ll know for sure in the next month or six weeks what’s happening. It’s very nerve-wracking!

    1. Helka*

      Yikes, ‘nerve-wracking’ sounds like an understatement, to be honest! Good luck to you in all this mess.

    2. Revanche*

      Oh gosh, that sounds incredibly stressful. Safe to assume that you’re hunting for a new job now since it’s more than likely the company will go down? (I had a smaller-scale similar situation some years ago during the recession and the company wouldn’t tell us when they planned to shut until about 2 months out. That was fun times, I job hunted for almost a year after that.)

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        I’ve been actively hunting for almost a year now, but it’s hard. I’m hoping against hope something comes up soon for me, since I don’t want to face a layoff situation! This had never happened before, so the whole thing is unnerving to say the least.

        1. Revanche*

          I hear you! Hey, I know Alison’s got most any advice you could possibly want covered but if there’s anything I can lend you a hand with, feel free to email me. Admittedly I have a newborn and hands are full but if I happen to know someone in your area and can send an intro, I’m more than happy to. I’m not much use in my own industry but my friends’ industries are wide ranging :)

    3. C Average*

      Oh, wow, that sounds like a complete cluster. You would be forgiven for relapsing and having some Diet Coke–with a generous splash of rum.

      Good luck!

    4. HarperC*

      So sorry you are going through this. You’ve got a head-start on the job hunt, though, and probably still have a few weeks left at least of this job, so that’s good. Good luck. I hope something turns up immediately for you.

    5. brightstar*

      Diet Coke Addict, I really hope you find something new soon! I know that place has been miserable for you, but this sounds like an absolute train wreck for the company.

    6. Anon Accountant*

      That sounds awful. It’s safe to assume you have an updated resume, cover letter, are saving cash and are job searching? What a terrible situation to be in.

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        I am in Ontario, rural southeast. I actually had an interview at one of the government-funded job centres, of all places (which was one of the places where I interviewed and they swore up and down they’d call me back no matter what, and did not–of all places!!!) but I haven’t had a whole lot of luck there.

    8. Carrie in Scotland*

      Eeek, that does not sound good :( hope you find something worthy of your skills and experience soon (or at least know what is going on with your current org)

    10. Dawn*

      Holy cow that sounds barking MAD! At least you will have a really good reason why you left your last job!

    12. Nashira*

      This must be awful. I’ll keep you in my thoughts. I did the unemployed job hunt thing and you’re right, it’s definitely hard.

    13. Alma*

      All good “AAM mojo” coming your way, FDCA. You are wise and helpful on this site, and those qualities are hard to fake with this group – I hope you find a job that makes you dance for joy!! Soon!!!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Same from me, FDCA! You’ve been searching all this time, so that means that something is going to come up soon. Maybe it be better than you dared to wish for!

      2. AlyIn Sebby*

        I Third it!

        Have a real coke first :)

        Not sure if this applies where you are but a temp. agency is a good way to keep working while job hunting.

        Can I say the name of the company?

        These people have been very helpful. I used them when we moved from one region to another and when I needed to leave a bad job NOW but needed more income that unemployment would give were I laid off or…

        http://www.roberthalf.com/finance/recruitment-agency-financial-jobs#state:ON:25

        Rooting for you to land on your toosh in a soft comfy cloud of a new perfect job!

        1. Alma*

          This also gives you a continuous string of great references to buffer (the ugliness) of the Old Job. It will also give you a taste of what else is out there you may not have considered. And may lead to temp to perm. Ya never know…

      3. Anonymish*

        Fourth this. You’re one of the many wise and kind voices here, and I hope something good pans out for you soon. We are all rooting hard for you.

    14. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Awww, you know I’m rooting for you!

      It couldn’t happen to a nicer boss but for you, we need you out of there and in a great job before the fold.

      Best!

    15. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Thanks to all for your very kind words–I really appreciate it more than I can say. I got a rejection from a job I interviewed at earlier today, just after my boss emailed us to tell us that he was going to be out next week but “monitoring your email, web, keystrokes, telephone calls, etc,” so…you know, not a great day at the House of Horribleboss.

      I continue to hunt for jobs, write thoughtful cover letters that explain why I’d like the job and be a good fit for it, write to keep my brain engaged, but it’s SO hard. So very hard. I’m so glad the AAM community is out there and so wonderful.

      1. Alma*

        My Mother would say, “He doesn’t have enough to keep him busy (if he has all the time to monitor every keystroke and flush of the toilet). I can find something for him to do…”

        I think this is a great thing – to write this ridiculousness down – because one day, one day soon, these words will be very very funny.

  2. Golden Yeti*

    Oh, man. It’s going down, guys. Stuff’s about to get real.

    We’ve lost several people recently, and one of those people found out that one of the Big Bosses has been referring to himself with a title he shouldn’t have been (as in, does not actually have that certification here). This person reported it, and told me so–long story short, I found out that the organization that issues those titles is going to be writing him a “stop it” letter in a few weeks. I’m sure the company will try to fight it, but one of the marketing pillars of the company is that someone with that title is designing the product. If it’s publicized that this is not the case, that’s a Big Deal.

    I think I should be getting out soon…

    1. Renegade Rose*

      When I read this, I couldn’t stop myself from thinking: “It’s going down! I’m yelling timber…”

        1. Not Here or There*

          If you’re going to get it stuck in your head anyway, I would at least go with the Postmodern Jukebox version.

      3. HigherEd Admin*

        Hah, I immediately thought of that rap song from like 2006: Meet me in the elevator, it’s going down.

  3. MR*

    I appologize in advance for the length of this post, but if you see it through, you will see why it’s so long.

    I’m frustrated and could use some help. I’m underemployed and have been struggling for years to become gainfully employed again. Let me give a bit of my background to help.

    I graduated with an B.S. in management and a minor in economics from Penn State in three years. I took an additional year to obtain my MBA, also from Penn State. During this time, I worked several part time jobs, and was elected to my hometown school board while I was in college when I was 20 (two years later, my peers on the board elected me as Vice President). One of my jobs at the time was at the newspaper in my town, and they said that at the time, I was the youngest person in Pennsylvania to hold public office. Needless to say, I had a lot going for me at the time.

    After getting re-elected to a second term, and having finished graduate school, I was looking for work. I took a job with Boeing in St. Louis as a procurement agent. I was buying machined parts for the C-17, F-15 and F/A-18. While Boeing has a reputation as a great place to work, I found the reality of that situation to not be true. There was ample opportunity if you were an engineer. I obviously was not, and found myself to be pigeonholed. There really were no opportunities in other areas, and so I was either going to be in my area until the programs shut down (due to technological advances) or I would have to move on. I chose to move on.

    So, I bought a bar. I had no real experience working in a bar/restaurant, but up to this point, just about everything I had done, I was successful. I bought the bar, but continued to work for Boeing. I hired a manager to do the day-to-day stuff, and that worked well. For awhile. But because I didn’t know the nuances of the industry, things slowly fell apart. After about eight months, I quit my job at Boeing to focus on the bar full time, but it was too late at that point.

    After another six months or so, I ran out of money and had to close my doors. I had to file for bankruptcy and was going to lose my house (I later lost my car and defaulted on my student loans). After that ended, we decided to move to Pensacola, Florida, for a fresh start. My wife can do her occupation anywhere, but I had to figure something out for myself. So, before we moved to Florida, I began volunteering for Habitat for Humanity in their ReStore, near my house. I turned that into a part-time position, and I really enjoyed working for them, and the people, and I was able to get a lot done.

    However, knowing I was going to be moving, I needed to find work here in Pensacola. I was able to turn my part-time position at the ReStore outside St. Louis, into the store manager position in Pensacola. However, there was a lot of Dunning-Kruger going on, and I was forced out after a few months. I spent about six months unemployed after that, before landing a job with Publix in the produce department.

    It’s now been two years since I’ve been with Publix. All of the good things you may have heard about the company are true. However, there are so many things that they could do to make them better. I’ve been trying to land a position on their support side, but have been running into problems. I’ve applied to 10 positions so far. I was a finalist for one, but was turned down because I hadn’t been with the company long enough (I had been employed by them for six months at that point). Two more positions here in the last few months, I was well qualified for, but was told my skills and experiences had been too far in the past.

    So what do I do now? I’ve had a website for the past year and a half that I use to talk about good management and discuss current business news, utilizing my knowledges and experiences. I’ve done a bit of volunteer work. But I feel as though I’m missing out. I don’t feel fulfilled at all. I’m bored. I’m depressed at times. I feel useless. It has taken a toll on my marriage and my general wellbeing.

    I’m not looking for a handout. A hand-up, perhaps. Some guidance. An opportunity. Something. I am more than willing to provide additional details to anything you have read here. Thank you very much!

    2. fposte*

      What are you looking to do? I think one of your challenges is that your history isn’t a clear trajectory but instead a bunch of different things, so it’s really helpful if you can create a narrative that makes sense for people hiring you. So how are you conceiving and portraying yourself, who would you network with, etc.? When you look for full-time jobs, where are you looking aside from Publix?

      1. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

        I’d suggest addressing the depression–try to find a therapist, because it sounds like the fall from bright shining star to guy who is trying to get out of the produce department at Publix has been hard. It sounds like you’ve graduated around 2008-2010, and it’s been hard for us all.

        But also, Pensacola? Really? What does Pensacola have going for it?

        And start looking around for companies with a strong promote from within culture. I’d suggest Nordstrom–I worked for them and they do start everyone off the floor, but if you have hustle (and it sounds like you have that in spades) you can rise up quickly. They need a lot of good people for the Rack stores–it’s their quickest growing division.

        1. MR*

          I graduated in ’06 and ’07.

          Pensacola has amazing beaches and my wife loves the beach.

          Publix has that strong promote from within culture. So much so, everyone starts at the bottom on the retail side, regardless of background or what the company publicly states.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            Unfortunately, I don’t think beaches are enough of a reason to stay in a place where you’re struggling to find employment.

            If it were me I’d try to get back into Boeing or another defense contractor as a procurement specialist again – there are lots in the DC area, there’s St. Louis, there’s Seattle, pretty much everywhere.

            My biggest concern is that you don’t seem to know what you actually want to do, and it’s leaving you kind of floating. I read this missive and have no idea what it is that interests or drives you, and that’s a problem.

            But I think you have to be willing to move – beaches aren’t enough to stay in a place where you can’t find gainful employment.

            1. MR*

              I’ve always been willing and able to go anywhere for employment. Besides, give me the mountains over the beach any day of the week ;)

              I have no desire to go back to Boeing. It’s the place where ambition and desire go to die. I saw how miserable the ‘old timers’ were, just waiting until they could retire. I didn’t want that to be me, which is one reason why I got out. The guy who was the best man in my wedding still works there and is miserable (we are the same age), so he is looking to get out, although not in the way I did.

              I don’t know what I want to do. As I said elsewhere, my favorite job was the newspaper, but it didn’t pay the bills. I enjoy analyzing things. Trying to figure out what makes things work and how things can be done better. When I go into a business for whatever reason, I find that I look around and see what is working well and not working well and trying to figure out why.

              2. Colleen*

                MR, take a look at the Malcolm Baldrige National Quality Award run by NIST. I think you’ll find it interesting. You should be able to find a state-run award in Florida (here it is: http://www.floridasterling.com/). Doing some volunteering with them could lead you in to a whole other realm of work that you never thought you could make money doing — business excellence consulting with your own or another small firm.

                Check it out. I have done it for the Baldrige award for years and the contacts are amazing.

                Good luck

      2. MR*

        I…have no idea what I want to do. That is part of the problem. It leads into the problem of not knowing where to look and what companies to work for. Any thoughts on figuring this out?

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          I think you need to get a copy of What Color is your Parachute, buy it if you’re the sort of person who likes to highlight books, or from the library if you don’t. You need to figure out what you are interested in doing first. No point applying for jobs scatter shot if you don’t know where you want to go (aside from getting a better pay cheque). http://www.jobhuntersbible.com/

          1. JB*

            You might also look into Start With Why. An acquaintance went through that process, and it completely changed what he wanted to do. He stayed in the same field but switched his focus, and he’s so so much happier now. He was miserable before, and now he feels like he’s doing what he was meant to do.

            I think it has less to do with the kind of “You should be an accountant” type of analysis and more like a “your job should use these kinds of skills or have this kind of focus” so that you can find a job that suits you in just about any field. Or at least that’s how it was explained to me by someone else. I won’t swear to that, though.

        2. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

          What do you like to do? How do you function in the world?

          Look, I like to read and find out about stuff, I like talking to people and trying to figure out their problems, I’m damn smart and need new challenges every 6-12 months, I don’t mind talking to people but I don’t like seeing the same people all the time and unless they are handing over their checkbook and mind I don’t want to be all involved in their lives.

          So I’m a librarian. And I was also a performance auditor for the state, and I worked in the women’s section at Nordstrom Rack and ran a damn fine and efficient fitting room. And if my current library job hadn’t come along I was going to stay with Nordstrom and apply to their training program, and maybe more into management or go out entreprenurial and move to full line and do sales there. But I also started working at a hospital whose mission I was down with with a boss I respected and liked and a job opened up there.

          But a lot of this only came after I went through about 3 years of therapy and really worked on understanding who I was and how I functioned, and really building an appreciation for what made me different and valuable in the world.

          1. AVP*

            People who can run an efficient department store fitting room should be canonized, or at least be put on the presidential track.

            1. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

              I was really, really good at it. It’s one of my accomplishments.

              1. Stephanie*

                Yeah, I sucked at it when I worked retail. I just aimed for organized chaos and no bodily fluids on the floor (yay retail) when I had to cover juniors.

          2. MR*

            I mentioned up thread (or down) that I have found myself in recent years analyzing businesses. A lot. When I walk into them or reading about them online or even in discussions. I would be interested in turning that into a business, but other than my website, I don’t know where to start.

            Your second paragraph seems to describe me. I like figuring out problems, and new challenges regularly. Maybe it’s why I’ve done things in so many different industries and roles…

            1. Hillary*

              Ultimately, a lot of what you say you like sounds like an implementation manager or project manager to me, whether that’s in a technical or less-technical role (i.e. software implementation versus supply chain projects). Audit/risk management and Lean/Six Sigma black/green belt roles also come to mind.

              That said, all of those tend to require some form of dues paying in the trenches, even though the job isn’t going to be the most interesting. Want to be an internal auditor? Chances are you’ll put in time at a Big 5 firm or as an FA at a big company. IT project management? Probably need to learn the product first.

              The other recommendations about finding direction are spot on. I’d also encourage you to attend events and focus on networking to learn about jobs and companies. Also remember you’re not looking for a forever job, and probably not a forever company. You’re looking for a role that helps you grow towards the ultimate goal and adds value to the company. (I say this as I’m trying to focus on it myself, hopefully it doesn’t sound pedantic. ;-)

              1. AVP*

                A Project Manager would be interesting because you’d also be able to use some of your communications skills, mentioned below.

            3. AlyIn Sebby*

              Kind of similar to what I suggested for FDCA,

              Have you looked at consultancy firms? Many deploy a temp. CFO or Finance leader/Administrative Development, with a kind of pre-packages business set up system and you could be with clients anywhere from weeks to months and sometimes longer and permanent.

              I just googled Business Consultants and something else popped out to me – business forensics, taps into your organizational mind but keeps things fresh. In that vein, are your tech skills on par with your degrees?

              And adding on to KatietheFed, have you looked at civilian positions on military/(government?) bases? You are in Navy and Coast Guard land, you would be surprised how many civilians work there.

              It does sound like you need to spend some time and energy to find a thread and focus. All the books recommended are great.

              Someone also said therapy for the possible depression. You would be surprised how much just focusing on some minor issues will bring things into focus and the professional feedback is very worth it. Sounds like you may be sabotaging yourself or…??? Not sure couldn’t get a strong feeling for your overall dynamic.

              But if part of your inner talk these days is anything like, “I have an MBA why can’t I…?” stop it.

              Break a leg! :)

        3. AVP*

          What do you like about the jobs you’ve had? Aside from things like money and security, that is. What’s your favorite part of every day? What task do you look forward to doing the most? Is there any part of the workload that you love, that other people hate and avoid? What do you hate and avoid doing if you can?

          I would dig into that angle of your working life, and then see about matching up the things you “can’t not” do with jobs that involve a lot of those tasks – it might be something you’ve never heard of, or an industry you don’t realize exists.

          And if the answer is “nothing,” work on the depression part and then try it again. Depression tends to cloud these things, but you do have some of the answers if you can reach them.

          1. MR*

            My favorite job was working in the sports department at the newspaper when I was in college. I enjoyed writing stories, copy editing, page layouts, deadline and I worked with great people. I did it for five years, but I couldn’t pay off student loans with that job, let alone eat or live somewhere.

            I also don’t think I’ve fully been over the loss of the bar. When I see the same things at the store that are going on, that I attrubute to why my bad failed, I get angry. I’ve learned the lessons, and want to teach them to others, that things can and need to be done differently and better, but again, fall on deaf ears.

            1. fposte*

              Yeah, that’s another indication that therapy may be a good move.

              But I also think you should look at job openings. Look at a bunch of them at different places and companies; hell, apply for some just to apply. Right now everything outside of Publix and stuff you’ve already done is purely hypothetical, and I think it’s hard to get your head around the hypothetical.

        4. Lindsay J*

          Had a discussion about this with my therapist recently.

          If you know your MBTI type, try Googling “good jobs for INTJ” (or whatever your type is). There are a lot of lists like this. Take a look at them and see if anything on the list catches your eye as something you might be interested in.

          And then start researching the position. The Bureau of Labor statistics has a lot of information about what type of degree or licensing is needed for the position, median salary, types of work environments you would expect to work it, and future outlook for the position.

          If you’re still interested, research using LinkedIn, etc, to see what types of jobs people had before they moved into the position you’re interested in, etc. This way you’ll get an idea of the career path.

          There are also apparently better employment aptitude tests than the ones out there than the ones you take in high school.

          A therapist who has experience in career counseling could be helpful to you.

          Did you like procurement? Would you like doing it in a company that isn’t Boeing? My ex boss worked with Boeing for a long time (2o years, ish) doing procurement. She was recently recruited by a pharmaceutical company to do procurement for them and apparently will be making bank.

          1. MR*

            I’ve never been a big fan of Myers-Briggs. It’s always felt as though it’s just a bunch of bunk…

            Procurement isn’t bad, but as I said elsewhere, I got bored with it over time. I get stir crazy if I get complacent or I sense complacency around me (and I have noticed it a lot around me at various stops in my career, including my current one).

            1. JB*

              It’s not really bunk until you start giving it more weight than it merits. But it’s not a bad to give yourself an idea of things you might want to watch for in yourself.

              1. Stephanie*

                Yeah, I wouldn’t treat it as gospel, especially since it assumes everything is so binary (i.e., you’re either an I or E and so on) when it’s probably more a spectrum. But it can be helpful as a starting point.

            2. Witty Nickname*

              I am going to concur with the others who have suggested Project Management. One of the things I love about being a PM is that I get to take on different projects and work on different things and don’t really have a chance to get bored. I’m a PM at a digital advertising company – I’m a PM on the marketing side, but there are also PMs in operations and technology in my company.

              I’d also suggest looking into Change Management or Risk Management, based on what you’ve said you are interested in.

          2. Alma*

            Aren’t there a lot of airplanes and jets in P’cola??

            Another suggestion would be to meet the folks at the community college / vo-tech (in my part of the world, they are a joint venture) . They do a lot of training and counseling people who are starting businesses. You might be a resource they’d be interested in.

        5. Nashira*

          MR, it really sounds like you could benefit from talking things over with a solid therapist. Counseling isn’t just for people with serious mental illness (although that’s why I’ve done it). It can be a massive help to anyone who just needs a neutral third party or professional wise friend. Does your employer have an EAP that could refer you to someone, and maybe pay for a few sessions?

    3. Sunflower*

      Wow you’ve…been through a lot in a short amount of time. I’m thinking you’re still pretty young. I’m a fellow Penn Stater and you know we love our own so I’m sending serious good vibes your way

      The first thing I’d do is sit down and ask yourself a lot of questions. Primarily, where do you think your unhappiness is coming from- lack of fulfillment in or outside of work. You like Publix but is it more important to stay there or to advance your career? Would getting a better job at a different company make you happier? Also, you didn’t mention this but are finances an issue? Are you able to fully support your family on your salary or are you needing more? What about your website? Would you ever be able to make a substantial income off of that or is that an interest of yours? If finances aren’t an issue, any chance your wife would be willing to let you scale back earning income and focus more on volunteer work which might create a path for you to figure out what you truly want?

      You seem used to doing a lot of things at once and if you aren’t, it brings you down. You sound like you want to advance fast as well. Any chance you’d consider sales? That could be a good industry and keeps you constantly busy.

      1. Cass*

        Glad to see other Penn Staters on AAM. I moved to State College and it’s been a little tough going finding FT work, but I still love the area!

      2. MR*

        I’m 31.

        My unhappiness is coming from a lack of fulfillment in my career. I’m not married to Publix by any means, but I have almost no support from anyone in the company to help me. Any suggestions I have for anything falls on deaf ears. So it’s hard to be committed to them when I get almost nothing in return.

        My wife is the breadwinner. She has always made more than me, even when I worked at Boeing. I’d love to make money off of my website, but the topic of business is boring ;)

        I do like to stay busy. I thrived when I had a lot going on. I’m not a fan of sales (I hate being approached by salespersons) so I don’t find that to be a good option.

        1. AnotherHRPro*

          Also a fellow PSU grad. Good to see so many of us on here. MR, you may not have a realistic view of “sales”. When you get outside of retail, sales can be a very rewarding career. In the CPG space you are partnering with small business owners which may appeal to you. This is not cold-calling. Just something to think about…

          My overall advice is that you really do need to figure out what it is you want your next job to be. I’m not suggesting you need to answer “what do you want to do with your life” but you do need to know where you need to focus on for the next step. What did you enjoy the most? Politics? Owning your own business? Not For Profit? Corporate? Answer that question first. Then, what type of work do find challenging? Crunching numbers? Working with others? Problem solving? That then can you help you start to focus on an industry and specific type of job.

          Good luck to you.
          We are…

          1. Sunflower*

            I suggested sales as it’s really a position where there is truly always something to do. A lot of sales works around account management. Especially if you’re in B2B it’s much less sales persony.

            I think you had the right idea with buying a bar. You might be really good at owning your own business but you often times need expertise in that area.

            You seen to like strategic planning and have big ideas. Have you considered consulting?

          2. MR*

            Can you tell me more about ‘CPG space?’

            I loved owning my own business. I would love another shot at it. Knowing what I know now after my first attempt, I would do so many things differently and I know there would be a different result. Helping others not do the dumb things that I did would also be good.

            I also love politics/news/current events (but I could do without so much of the ‘entertainment news’ that seems to dominate these days). I take pride in knowing what is going on around me, not just locally, but nationally and internationally.

            1. cat*

              Not the person who suggested it, but I can tell you a little about it (I work in CPG marketing, not sales, but I work very closely with our sales teams).

              At my company, we’re encouraged to be “the owners of our businesses” and we’re held responsible for the performance of those businesses. So if my brand is struggling at, say, Kroger, I will reach out to my Kroger sales team (they still work for my CPG company, not Kroger) to find out why, and they will dig in – is it loss of distribution, is it competitive activity, is it pricing…? And then we will work together to figure out how to fix it, either through traditional marketing efforts that I lead or through retailer-specific efforts that my sales team leads.

              Working in CPG sales is not door-to-door, nor is it pharma – you have a specific retailer you are assigned to and you help your company and the retailer work together to sell your brands. It’s very analytic, very consultative, and you are expected to be a partner to both the retailer and your own company.

              My understanding is that every day is a little different for our sales team – one day they may be working on chocolate teapots, the next on chocolate frogs and the next on white chocolate racecars with nuts. There is still a bit of the “Good Ol’ Boy” sales mentality but, in my experience, CPG sales is so different from pharma that it’s like night and day.

              Happy to answer any follow-ups. Wish you the best of luck regardless – I was a bit lost a few years ago before I found my current path, so I empathize.

        2. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

          Lack of fulfillment in career saying your unhappiness has an external cause. The problem with that is that you seem to have bounced around in jobs, ambitions, and plans without a purpose so much that I think you need to look at possible internal causes.

        3. Slippy*

          Well one way to find out what you want to do is try to determine what you do for fun then see if you can make money off of it. Nowadays you can make money streaming yourself playing video games so really anything is possible but it may take some creative thinking (and fast talking).

          If you are going for an internal position and you do not have all the experience they are looking for (and sometimes, a lot of times??, it is an arbitrary number) show them exactly how you can make them money/add value. Then it goes from a philosophical discussion about qualifications to dollars and cents.

          1. MR*

            I only apply to positions within Publix where I meet all of the required qualifications (and I have interest in and so on). So far, this has been 10. I was a finalist for one, which would have been two steps below Vice President (I would have reported to the director, and he reported to a VP), and the reason I was told when I did not get the position was because I hadn’t been with the company long enough. So taking them at their word (as Alison often says), my skills/abilities/experiences were not an issue, it was just something out of my control at the time.

    4. Jen*

      I could be reading into this, but you seem to talk a lot about the high-level strategic problems the various businesses you’re working for, while employed in fairly low-level positions. Is it possible this is coming through in your interviews/interactions? I appreciate you’ve got a good education on your side, but it is only an augmentation to, not a substitution for, business experience. Especially at companies of this size.

      I appreciate your frustration. I’ve been underemployed myself. But since you asked for advice, working on making your actual role (not someone else’s role at ‘head office’ that you have no direct experience in doing) great, and some humility, may help you lay a path that makes it easier for others to see all the other things you have going for you.

      1. MR*

        You do make a couple of good points here.

        One thing I have noticed is that in my interactions with those in much higher positions in the large companies that I have worked for, is how out of touch they seem to be with what is actually going on in their companies. Both at Boeing and Publix, and I don’t know what to make of it. As contrived as the show ‘Undercover Boss’ tends to be, I think there are some good lessons for executives to learn from the show.

        I do the best that I can in my current role and I have received nothing but good reviews from my managers. I do my best to make my manager’s job easier and he knows I’m frustrated, and we both know there is nothing he can do to help me. He does everything he can in his role and within the department, but there just isn’t much in the way of a challenge in the work I currently do.

        I’ll admit that I had a bit of an ego 5-6 years ago. There may even be a few people who would snicker if they knew what has become of me since. But if losing your house or seeing your car get towed away isn’t humbling, then I don’t quite know what is…

        1. C Average*

          I think it’s the nature of the beast for those at the top to be out of touch.

          I mean, think about what they see every day: they see everyone beneath them trying desperately to impress them by painting the rosiest possible picture. They have to actively WANT to see the bad stuff and to ask the right questions to get that information. I’ve been in meetings where my department’s leadership was presenting to the company’s senior leadership, and holy crap, I didn’t even RECOGNIZE my own department. The presentation was so slick and so well-rehearsed that I could almost believe that all of our day-to-day griping is baseless.

          Also, because so much of their attention is focused on future-state stuff that’s only partially visible to the rank-and-file, they can easily overlook the current-state stuff. When you’re spending all your time prepping for the launch of the Bling-Bling 2000, the problems with the Bling-Bling 1000 might just pass you by.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      I’m really sorry that things are looking glum.
      Yes, Boeing looks great on the surface, but there is no job security there. The only way to know that is if you know folks who have worked there. People are laid off all the time, but somehow it doesn’t make the news. ???
      I always say to visualize what you want in a job, then you can find it. It may not be about titles, or even the work you would be doing everyday. It could be vague. You could want to work with people, work for a charity, travel lots, have flex time, or you just want to work with good people who are dedicated to their jobs. It sounds fluffy, but if you get a concrete idea of what you want, I think it is easier to find it, or it to find you.

      Keep positive and keep hoping. It is crummy, but hard times are learning experiences too!
      (This is the second time my neck of the woods was mentioned on AAM this week. I’m really curious which bar you had in STL. I would have gone if I would have known!)

      2. Ann Furthermore*

        I work for a Boeing subsidiary, and there are many great things about the company. There are also very frustrating things about it too. No one is allowed to add headcount, and budgets are slashed every year. To hear the people in charge of these decisions talk, the company is on the verge of complete financial ruin. Then a few months later you see an email pop into your inbox talking about how we had a great year and everyone is getting a big bonus payout. Completely mixed messages.

      3. Windchime*

        I live about 10 minutes from Boeing, north of Seattle. My neighborhood is full of Boeing employees. I think that it can really depend on which plant you’re at and which airplane you’re working on. Also, some of my neighbors are full-time employees and others are contractors; the contractors are the ones who seem to be in a more perilous situation as far as employment stability.

        But this is all from an outside observer. I’ve never actually worked at Boeing (but I drive past there frequently and it’s a super impressive place).

    6. cuppa*

      What I would do is start really examining your positions and figuring out what you liked and didn’t like at every job. Also, really scrutinize your experience and see what skills you have there. I bet you will find some common threads, even though your jobs are really different. I would also look at what didn’t work out and determine whether you learned something from those experiences or need to enhance some skills. If you can boil those things down, you can make your decisions as to what you want to do and make your resume more cohesive.
      Best of luck!

      1. cuppa*

        I may be way off base, but the first ting that stands out to me is purchasing — you seem to have a lot of experiencing there. I don’t know if that suits your personality, but it’s what stands out to me.

        1. MR*

          Purchasing isn’t bad, but I found it boring after awhile.

          I’ve always tried to take the things I’ve learned from prior jobs/experiences/whatever to what I do next. Even though I’ve done a wide variety of things, there is always something to be taken away from an experience.

          1. the gold digger*

            Purchasing isn’t bad, but I found it boring after awhile.

            I have been unemployed (involuntarily) for long stretches. I don’t care if work is boring any more as long as they pay me. I no longer seek fulfillment in my work. Sure, I work hard and try to do a good job, and I am very lucky to like my current job, but it is being able to put a roof over my head that motivates me.

            2. MR*

              Good point.

              I’ve found that when I haven’t been generally happy with work, it really brings down the overall quality of my life. I’m just not the type of person who can do something and not be happy about it…

              1. JB*

                Hmm, I’m seconding other commenters who have suggested some sort of therapy. It’s just a fact of life, as you have discovered, that you will be called upon to do things that you aren’t happy about it. If you just can’t do things you aren’t happy about, you’ll be making your life so much harder for yourself.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Yeah, I actually think this may be a bigger part of the problem that you’re realizing, MR. Especially early in a career — and especially in a situation where you’ve jumped around to a bunch of different things and now want to be on a different sort of path — there’s a strong likelihood that you’re doing to need to do work that might not be totally fulfilling for a while, as a long-term investment in your future quality of life. If your’e not up for doing that, or are thinking it’s something that’s easily avoidable, that might be a real obstacle in moving past this!

            3. Nashira*

              I gotta say, my depression improved when I was able to find satisfaction by doing a good job at work, while accepting that my current position is boring as heck. The education my job pays for is interesting, as are the hobbies it lets me pursue. But this job is boring, and that’s okay.

          2. cuppa*

            That’s important to know, though! Is there something that utilizes similar skills as purchasing that would be more fulfilling? What about the environments you’ve worked in? You’ve worked in corporate, retail (and worked with different target markets in retail), bars, etc. Do you like working with people? Do you like helping people? Do drunk people drive you nuts? Do you think they’re hilarious? Want to wear jeans all day?

    8. Chrissi*

      My brother lives in Crestview, and my mom quit her paralegal job in Indianapolis (with a job lined up down there) and moved to Destin. The man that hired her was the devil and fired her after 2 days for not asking for enough work even though she had asked him half a dozen times (knowing she was recently widowed, and had quit her job and spent a fortune to move down there based on his job offer) – sorry about the rant – still bitter. Anyhow, she applied for jobs in Destin, Ft Walton Beach, Crestview, and Pensacola for 2 years with lots of interviews and no jobs, when previously she had no problems getting a job after the interview in Indy. One of the hiring managers explained to her once that in that area, you pretty much need to know someone to get a job just because that’s how a lot of people think down there – they operate through relationships. Because she was from out of town, no one knew her, and I guess they weren’t willing to hire her unless someone local could vouch for her (her age probably didn’t help either). I don’t know how true that is, but it might be a reason you’re having trouble finding something down there. I do know that while that was all going on she was very depressed – it’s really stressful not being able to find something so try and give yourself a break and don’t beat yourself up about not finding things. Fortunately you have a job, and maybe some contacts, but you might try networking a bit via Meet-up groups or classes or something since this might be a consideration. I’d also ask the people at Publix what you can do to make yourself a better candidate in the future, if that’s what you want.

      Epilogue: Mom never did find a full-time job (she worked part-time at Beall’s for 6 months), but the ACA came along and so she could buy affordable health insurance and so she officially “retired” about a year and a half ago and she is very, very happy. The end.

      1. MR*

        You nailed it with how hiring works around here. I’ve had countless people tell me that is how it works, and likely explains why I had so much trouble finding something around here.

        For as much as my wife loves it here, I am the opposite. I’d have my bags packed and started at a new job on Monday, anywhere, if that were to happen (my wife would finish out the school year here then follow). But that’s not how things work ;)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Do you think that is coloring your job search efforts? I am wondering if the real problem is that you just don’t like the area.

    9. MR*

      I’m off to work, so I’ll be out of pocket until I’m on my break. I’ll check back then and will answer any more questions. Feel free to email me as well!

      There are Penn Staters everywhere…I’ve run across them almost everywhere I’ve gone!

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        You sound like you could seriously benefit from career counseling, like Lindsay J commented earlier. If Myer-Brigg’s isn’t your cup of tea, perhaps the Holland Occupational Code is more suited to your tastes. Then you can use that code at ONet to find careers in line with your motivations & preferences.

        You sound like you are definitely enterprising (entrepreneurial) and investigative (like thinking about problems), so I took the liberty of pre-selecting that interest at this website. http://www.onetonline.org/explore/interests/Enterprising/Investigative/

        Off the cuff, to me, you sound like a business analyst in hiding – “I enjoy analyzing things”, “I like figuring out problems, and new challenges regularly”, “I enjoyed writing stories, copy editing, page layouts” (excellent visual communication is great for analysts), “Helping others not do the dumb things that I did”, “I take pride in knowing what is going on around me”…
        http://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/15-1199.08

        Invest some money into career guidance, maybe some therapy to address the past, and keep your chin up. You will come out on top. Good luck.

    10. Anx*

      I struggle with this as well.

      I graduated around 2008 with some vague ideas of what I wanted to do. But none of those have panned out. I think it can be extra difficult when you struggle for so long. I know for me, I have a hard time feeling as though I can be choosy at all. After all, I’m broke, I have huge under and unemployment gaps, and I haven’t even worked in a full-time, permanent position in my whole life. Who am I to have wants when I’m living in the ‘needs?’ I also worry about being perceived as entitled. Although my college years aren’t nearly as impressive as yours, I also felt like I walked right off a cliff, going from being extremely busy, productive, and accomplished to having no prospects and waning ambitions. It turns out I was probably depressed (or had other similarly presenting issues) throughout college but it really came to a head while I was unemployed.

      It’s also hard to pick one thing to want to do when every time I work toward that for a few years I end up further in debt, older, and just as underemployed.

      I haven’t been successful in choosing a field or finding unemployment, but I am keeping my head above water, which I think is something that is harder than most people realize when you struggle with employment.

      The best advice I can give you is to believe that you are more than your ability to produce for an employer.

    11. and Vinegar*

      No answers here, but a possibly useful framework. A lot of people have a primary professional focus, but some of us have these seemingly contradictory foci. I ran across this resource at one point: http://www.renaissancesouls.com/

      She’s got a lot of useful ideas about how to look at the kinds of things that draw you and how to keep an eye on the patterns of when and how things recycle through your life to help them be useful instead of road blocks. Your saying that you get bored easily and have been interested in doing a wide variety of things make me wonder if this might be helpful as a way of framing the questions about next steps. I found it really helpful to think about how to make those seemingly disparate aspects of my brain collaborate in more obvious ways.

      Another place you might want to check out to do some volunteer work with is http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/business-plans/Business-Plans-Volume-03/Service-Corps-of-Retired-Executives-Score-Offices.html You aren’t retired, but they work with folks interested in starting and managing small businesses. You might have a visit or three with them about how you might be helpful while giving your brain something that feels more engaging.

      Check out any local PSU alumni groups for ways to get connected in the community and maybe involved in some group projects, again for some more satisfying stuff. http://alumni.psu.edu/groups/chapters/FL

      Volunteer projects are one way of getting some of those skills back into the “current” part of your resume, which will reinforce the paid work experience, but you have to want to do that work without assuming what doing it will do for you.

      It’s hard to go from being the Obviously Successful person to the one who finds it hard to get much work. It’s hard, too, to go from being someone others came to for instruction to being someone whose ideas aren’t encouraged. I wonder if some “train the trainer” classes would be a useful addition to your skill set; you have a lot to offer and I’ve yet to meet a successful trainer who didn’t think there was more to learn about how to broader perspectives and conversations and improve projects and outcomes. (And leadership roles are teaching roles in very many ways.) It might also help balance the former and current roles in your conversations, work, and in volunteer roles. It’s not always about what a business might do better, but often about how they got to where they are and what their goals are in terms of process as well as outcome. Are you curious and excited by those conversations, too? A prof once said to to a class I was in that what’s interesting is not why people do what they do, but why they changed from what they used to do. Paying attention to that has opened my eyes on multiple occasions.

      Good luck to you.

    12. Stephanie*

      Oh man, are you me? I could have written some elements of this.

      First, my dad retired from Boeing last year. He tolerated it. Plenty of people dislike it. It is a Giant Company in an industry (defense/aerospace) known for being a bit on the stodgy and rule-heavy side. My friend worked at the St. Louis site (as an engineer actually) and quit after four months because he disliked it so much. And yeah, I’ve heard all sorts of different things about their financial stability. That being said, it is A Name. People like names on resumes. That is in your favor, assuming you stayed there a decent amount of time and were able to get some accomplishments. I worked as an RA for a chemistry professor and people were impressed that we had a project with Giant Food Manufacturer (even though the project went nowhere and I spent the bulk of that job doing other things).

      Second, how wedded are you to Pensacola? The grass might be greener elsewhere and you mentioned your wife can do her job anywhere. As someone who lives in a similarly sunny area heavily dependent on snowbirds and tourism, I’ve mostly interviewed for non-local jobs, probably at a ratio of 4:1 for non-local:local jobs. Not for lack of trying locally, just I think the market may be flooded where I am.

      Like you, I’m struggling in that I’ve tried a couple of different things and there isn’t the most clear trajectory. I hear a lot of “Wow, you’re really interesting!” Unfortunately, “interesting” rarely turns into interviews or offers. My main professional experience is in a field I have no interest in staying in. It’s always a little awkward to be like “No…please don’t refer to me Teapot Policy Analyst roles, even though I worked two jobs in that area” mostly because it’s hard to honestly be like “Yeah, no…I was not good at those jobs. Trust me.”

      I’m also underemployed at a company that has a big promote-from-within culture. As you’ve discovered, those places are big on dues paying. One will not hop from admin to C suite in six months. With Publix, it sounds like you might have to wait it out if it’s somewhere you seriously want to stay. At my company, I also picked up promotions are slow and political. Could you find someone to go to bat for you?

      It sucks. I understand.

    13. StateRegulator*

      Your posts scream to me that you want to do much more than work a job. I’ll recommend Peter Voogd podcasts that might be helpful to put your situation into perspective. His articles are all over the web and he might have a book out by now.

  4. ACA*

    I found out this morning that I didn’t get the job that I’ve been interviewing for. I really thought that I had this one, or that at least that I’d make it to the final round. I’m trying my best to move on, but honestly, I’m really disappointed.

    In other terrible news, someone was spelling out his his address to my coworker yesterday – S as in Sam, A as in Apple, etc – and then he says, “R as in Retard.” So that is a thing that happened.

    2. C Average*

      I’m sorry. Having been through the hope-and-despair cycle you’re experiencing, I feel for you.

      And, uh, R as in really? Really? Wow.

    3. GOG11*

      Sorry you didn’t get the job. And ugh. It says something about you when that’s the most readily available R word in your mind. Sorry you have to work with that guy.

      1. ACA*

        It really does, but also, not my coworker! Someone my coworker was talking with. My coworker was appalled.

    4. IndieGir*

      Sorry. It’s so disappointing when you get so close to the goal. Your coworker is a jackass.

    5. Lucy*

      OMG what did your coworker say?!

      And it always sucks when you don’t get a job….rejections will always outnumber the acceptances, since you only need one of those. :/

      1. ACA*

        She couldn’t really say anything in the moment, since R was in the middle of the word, but she was appalled.

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          Haha, I would have loved for her to spell it back, and say “what was that middle letter? I didn’t understand the word you used with it”

            1. Lore*

              A colleague of mine had a similar experience with a customer service representative who had a thick accent and was clearly reading off a script. He used the phrase “K as in k*ke”…and my coworker thought surely he must have said, “kite,” asked him to repeat it, and…nope. He said, calmly, “You should be aware that in American English, that word is an ethnic slur and you should not be using it.” But the CSR seemed so flustered by having the script interrupted that my colleague was not sure the message got through. Still, I applaud the presence of mind.

        2. Allison Mary*

          This is why I made an effort to learn the military alphabet, especially when I was needing to spell things out over the phone.

          Sierra, Alpha, Romeo…

          1. Al Lo*

            “P as in Phoebe, H as in Hoebe, O as in Oebe, E as in Ebee, B as in B-bee, E as in ‘Ello there, mate!”

          2. Natalie*

            I have the NATO phonetic alphabet printed out and stuck to my corkboard for exactly this reason.

    6. Artemesia*

      So sorry about the disappointment. My daughter went through about a year of that when she decided to get a full time job after losing her job while out on maternity leave and then doing some part time consulting for a couple of years. She was a finalist (of two or three) for several jobs that she ended up not getting; after a few of these you begin to get paranoid about the possibility that there was someone out there giving a mean review or something. And then one of the firms where she was a finalist hired the other guy but reached out to her to do some contract work which eventually led to a full time offer. She is just recently promoted to a management position there and loves her work. Sometimes it just takes a long time even when you are great — because there are not that many good jobs out there. Hope your luck looks up soon.

    7. Jennifer*

      You have my sympathies.

      I just got a very nice rejection letter in the mail. Oddly enough, NOT for the job I had an interview for, but the other job I applied for at that office. Of course they went with someone who had more experience. Of course.

      I’m sick of only being qualified for the job I had now.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      Boo! That sucks. It always helped me to think, hey, they’re either are too stupid to appreciate me (and I wouldn’t want them anyway!), or I dodged a bullet and didn’t know it.

      And the second thing–WHOA. D:

      1. ACA*

        It double-sucks, because the person who vacated the position is the one that suggested I apply for the job (and basically walked my resume over to HR), and her coworker already told me she (the coworker) was rooting for me. Plus the coworker calls/emails me multiple times a week with questions, since she’s cover that position right now and my current job has significant overlap with it…but I guess Human Resources wasn’t as impressed.

        1. AlyIn Sebby*

          Aw, sorry :(

          Chin up, job search just often sucks. But the right one will come along.

          Try to be kind to yourself. I can be awful to myself when I don’t get the job. Argh!

          At least you know everyone here is rooting for you, that’s a lot of rooting!

          Best Fishees

      2. Swedish Tekanna*

        Yep – sounds like me. It always reminds me of Grouch Marx not wanting to join any a club that would have him as a member! If they can’t see my qualities then the loss is theirs (well, it helps a bit).

  5. Sunflower*

    So the great job opportunity didn’t happen. Turns out they were really worried about my over qualifications and didn’t really want to pay what I wanted. Oh well, such is life.

    I really want to talk about contract work as I’m seeing a ton of jobs like this and it’s really appealing to me. I really just see myself going through an agency as I don’t have the time or resources to do my own taxes and don’t know how to find these jobs on my own. Should I expect low pay with them? Some jobs are only paying per hour what you should be making if you were a benefited employee and I was thinking something like 1.3 or 1.4 times that rate. I’m on the creative side so anyone know of good agencies? Or is there another route to these jobs that I’m missing?

    *note/rant: Since I’ve been doing some heavy job searching I’m realizing that as terrible as my job is, I’m really lucky with the experience I got here. I’ve gotten way more hands on responsibilities and duties than other people at my level. This is both great and frustrating. Event planning/Project management titles are really tricky and years of experience seem to have no bearing on the title. I don’t think I still qualify as entry-level/coordinator(years wise maybe but duties wise no) but some manager positions seem out of my reach. I just applied to both a coordinator and manager job at the same company. They asked me to explain why I applied to both and I’m curious what they are going to say back to me. Just another fun part of job searching I guess!

    2. Dani X*

      Fellow Penn Stater here and if you are a member of the alumni group then you qualify for some really great job search help resources. Go to the penn state alumni website and look it up.

    3. Ops Analyst*

      It sounds like you should be applying for the manager jobs. I wouldn’t worry about the number of years you’ve worked overall, just the number of years you’ve done the kind of work that qualifies you for your next position. So if you see a management job that asks for 4 years experience in the field and 2 years of that in management you should apply for it even if you’ve only been in the field for 2 years if you also have the management experience. Management is just an example here. Substitute whatever experience fits. Hope that made sense.

      My current job asked for 5 years as an analyst in an operations capacity, which I didn’t have at all. But I had 3-5 years of experience with other major aspects of the job from a different field. I’ve learned that reaching for stretch jobs yielded a lot more results than reaching for jobs that I was mostly qualified for. So reach up and ask for more.

  6. Shell*

    Mostly musing out loud here…

    A month into my new job and things are going pretty well, but yesterday evening I realized I have a tendency to over-explain myself even for answers I’m sure of. E.g. A coworker will ask “When is the expected completion date of X?” I could just say “Oh, it will be [date A]”, but I always end up adding an explanation of “it was supposed to be [date B], but they had Incident Y crop up, and there were further delays with Z, and thus etc. etc.” when the coworker didn’t even ask for any of that information. It’d be different if my coworker asked, but when they don’t…I feel like over-explaining makes me look like I’m unsure of myself.

    Mind you, one month in I am unsure of myself, but I probably shouldn’t show it when I’m confident of my answers, or in general even. (Although I’m not sure if anyone else notices this tendency.)

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I do that. I do it to cashiers when I’m shopping, which I’m sure makes me the highlight of their day.

      1. the gold digger*

        I had to return some paper plates and plastic forks last night for a party we were going to have last week but cancelled because Primo ended up staying at his mom and dad’s a week longer than planned after his dad’s knee replacement surgery because his dad had made no plans for help in week 2 because of course he is superman and will be completely functional a week after surgery just like all 82-year-old 100-lb overweight alcoholics and no, he didn’t like the caretaker Primo insisted they interview because she was “smug” because she said she was a good cook and did not talk about her weaknesses because that’s what people volunteer in interviews, right? Their weaknesses?

        So of course I had to tell the cashier the entire store because I was so mad about the whole thing.

        And she just looked at me as if I were crazy.

        1. Xarcady*

          I have a part-time job as a sales associate at the moment. Trust me, customers tell us everything. Sometimes I feel like a bartender, you know, the safe person you can tell your tale of woe to. I don’t think you are crazy, just mad and frustrated–as who wouldn’t be?

          I’ve had customers break down in tears in the fitting room because they couldn’t fit into clothes and had to go to a family function and see their ex’s new spouse there. I had a woman burst into tears while buying pillows, because she was about to host family for the funeral of her 10-year-old daughter and needed pillows for them to sleep on.

          I didn’t realize part of the job would be to help people deal with the bad moments in their lives, to provide tissues, to provide a listening ear when people don’t have a place to vent. I’d rather help a customer in distress than deal with someone who is pitching a hissy fit in the middle of the store because we only have five light blue towels and not six.

          1. Not Here or There*

            I think I’m going to breakdown in tears over the pillows too now… I just can’t imagine how hard it is to do something so mundane when going through something so awful.

            1. Hlyssande*

              Me too. :(

              There’s someone involved in a convention I staff in two weeks whose husband is not going to make it that long – it was very sudden. It was heartbreaking to see her post to the staff list about canceling reservations and registrations and things when she’s faced with this horrible situation.

          3. Angelfish*

            I broke down in a store once because I received a call that my husband’s best friend had died. I still think fondly of the initially very confused and then very kind sales associate who tried to comfort me, so thank you for helping these folks from someone who’s been there.

            1. jillociraptor*

              My mom often recounts the associate who helped her buy the clothes to bury her mother in. Just a really touching moment in a really hard time to have a stranger say, “Don’t worry, I’ve got you covered.”

          5. Anna*

            That’s a lot! Thank you for being a nice person dealing with weird moments in people’s lives and handling it kindly.

      2. JB*

        Me, too! And as I’m doing it, I tell myself to stop, but I don’t. Maybe it’s because I like having all the available relevant information, so my default is to provide that to people.

    2. GOG11*

      I tend to do this more that I’d like, but I generally don’t realize I’m doing it in the moment.

    3. C Average*

      I have this tendency, too, and have to keep it in check.

      You might want to think about why you do this.

      For me, it was a pre-emptive defense maneuver. I realized that our corporate culture here is driven quite a bit by fear of screwing up. So I’d overexplain everything in order to make it crystal-clear that if someone had screwed up, it wasn’t me. It was someone else, or circumstances, or a wrench in the works.

      I made a conscious decision that if I did make a mistake, I was going to own it out loud, because the only way you change a culture of fear is by refusing to be constrained by it and setting a different example within your team. And as long as I didn’t make any mistakes (at least none that I knew about!), I was going to give people only the information they’d requested, without the back story.

      1. Trixie*

        For me, somewhere between pre-emptive defense maneuver but mostly sounding apologetic which doesn’t inspire confidence. Also a need to fill empty conversation space.

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I actually appreciate when I get contextual information like that! I can certainly tune out or forget about the unimportant stuff later, but sometimes it’s nice to know if the project you’re working on has been pushed back five times, or if the report that Fergus wrote got held up with Jane. That way I’m not caught off-guard when Big Boss gets angry that X is late, or if I’m seeing a lot of contradictory information.

    5. Sunflower*

      When I encounter an over-explainer, I wouldn’t say it makes her come off as unsure of herself but I’ll tell you this- it can be frustrating for the receiving end.

      As a former over-explainer, I noticed people would try to hurry me along or just plain interrupt me during one of my moments or they’d stare off into space. Now I notice myself that if I didn’t ask for an explanation and someone offers one, I usually just nod my head and don’t pay attention honestly! So maybe train yourself to just stop after the first sentence. Or at least pause. Usually if you give yourself a couple second pause, you can tell if the person is looking for more info or if they’re satisfied.

      1. Shell*

        Mostly I’m over-explaining through IMs, though I don’t know if that’s better or worse than over-explaining verbally. (I don’t go on and on for paragraphs, but maybe 2-3 sentences.)

      2. Trixie*

        This. I know these people whom I generically refer to as “Chatty Cathies” and they take forever to reach their point. Circle and circle around it like they’re telling a story rather than simply answering the question. While not my favorite type to work with, I really dread being that one can’t simply answer the question as simply and succinctly as possible.

    6. Michele*

      I never seem to know the right amount of information to people. I either ramble on or come across as abrupt. It is a constant challenge for me.

    7. Snoskred*

      When someone asks me a question, I answer it, and if I feel like there is more I could say, I follow that with “Would you like to know more? (about this?)” This way, I am giving them the option and they can decide if they want to know more.

      Also, if there is a reason behind the answer I am giving, I might switch to “Would you like to know why?”. If they say yes, I will give them more.

      I have found that my asking this question empowers them to say no thanks, you’ve given me exactly what I need to know.

      Either way, I get an internal laugh out of it, because it reminds me of infomercials and Starship Troopers. :) Also, I discovered this is catching, and now people around me are likely to ask *me* if I want to know more.

  7. Rita*

    I’m going to be hiring an entry-level Sales and Marketing Associate soon. In the past at my company they’ve called this position “Junior Associate” and I’m not a fan of the term “Junior.” Any suggestions on alternatives? We’re a pretty fun company, so fun suggestions are more than welcome.

    1. Joey*

      Sales and marketing assistant

      You may feel differently but I think “fun” titles are a hindrance when you try to compare salary to the rest of the world.

      2. Ops Analyst*

        I think they may deter people too. My husband is in tech support and he’s found a few posting with titles like “Technical Support Ninja” and “Technical Wizard” and “Help Desk Overlord”. He won’t even apply for them because he’s 38 years old and doesn’t want to list those job titles on his resume, ever. Let alone when he’s mid-40s and trying to apply for a serious, high-level position. He’s also worried about future employers thinking he’s trying to be clever with his titles like some sort of gimmick.

        1. Snoskred*

          I don’t think those postings would be the official job titles. I suspect this is just the person listing the job trying to have a little fun with it and stand out on the job websites. :)

    2. kozinskey*

      Apprentice? Page? Knave? Journeyman?

      On a more serious note, “Associate” seems to convey the concept that the person is junior just fine to me. Are people referred to as “Senior Associates” once they’ve been there a while?

        1. Jen RO*

          I know some companies where the “specialist” is the generic title and you can be a junior specialist, senior specialist and so on. I personally think it’s ridiculous and that someone entry level can’t be any type of specialist.

        2. Nashira*

          It can make things very confusing. My official title is something like Chocolate and Ordering Support Specialist, and I’m actually a file clerk. It gives the impression that I’m a Big Deal, which is a problem when I’m working with COOs and need them to grok that I am a clerk and nothing more.

    4. Madstuart*

      I’m an administrative assistant, but my official job title is Minion.

      Sales and Marketing Minion might be a little too silly, though.

        1. RebeccaMN*

          We had a “sales minion” at my prior office, fwiw. I loved the creative names, although I know they aren’t always appreciated.

    5. Ann O'Nemity*

      Assistant, associate, coordinator, specialist, etc are all loosely tied to “real world” responsibilities and pay scales. I’d do a little internet research and find a title that matches the job you want to fill.

      1. Rita*

        Currently, that’s the “step up” from “Junior” – i.e. removing the junior from the position. Then the next step up would be named “senior.” It’s like that at most of the positions here. But, the people originally set up this structure are long gone, so there is opportunity to make changes.

        1. KarenT*

          If associate without “junior” is the step up I am with Joey. “Sales and marketing assistant”

        2. Lily in NYC*

          Our entry level marketing people are called Marketing Managers. After a promotion, it’s Sr. marketing Manager, then AVP, then VP. Even though manager is in the title, they don’t actually manage anyone, we use it the same way as if they were Project Managers. But please nothing fun or cutesy! I cringe when I see those titles.

    7. Sunflower*

      I think Sales & Marketing Associate is fine. For entry-level, the title doesn’t matter a ton.

      I would stay away from fun job titles They scare me a bit, especially when the job is Sales & Marketing related. I have seen way too many ENTRY LEVEL- MARKETING, PR FUN, WEAR FLIP FLOPS TO WORK, WE’RE SO FUN! job postings from scam companies that want you to work 100% comission so I flag them immediately as do not apply.

      Also remember if someone is using a tool like Indeed to look for jobs, the fun job title might not be picked up by the engine.

    8. A.K.*

      I think you should probably keep it “Junior” for the purposes of the posting, because that will make sense to people who are searching and will show up when someone searches for “junior associate”. But, once you make the hire if you want to call it something different/fun, you could work with the new junior associate to come up with that. Especially since it’s a marketing role, it could be a fun onboarding exercise for them to come up with a title that explains their role appropriately, but also reflects the company culture.

    9. Mints*

      I think either “Sales and Marketing Assistant” or “Sales and Marketing Coordinator.” Assistant definitely reads junior; coordinator is a little more vague but reads less entry level.
      (Fun titles are fun but hard to navigate as a job seeker. Am I qualified to be a Ninja? I have no idea)

    10. Jazzy Red*

      Well, I’m new to being retired, so my self-proclaimed official title is Rookie Retiree.

      Either say Sales and Marketing Assistant, or Sales and Marketing Associate I. The more experienced associates can be II and III.

  8. Cass in Canada*

    Woot first comment!!

    I would love to get some ideas on how to support my new boss as he transitions from another department to mine. He will be in my department as of April 1st, and has not worked in our technical area at our company before. However, he has worked in this role at previous companies.

    Any ideas on how I can be an awesome support person/assistant? Is there anything one of your directs did for you when you first started a new job that was awesome or made your life way easier? So far, I’m starting a binder of resources and pulling together a manual on some of our internal processes.

    I’m working in a technical science role as a coordinator, providing technical support for my departmentl. My job involves a lot of technical support, paperwork, managing projects, reviewing contractor products for errors and consistency. Basically managing the day to day technical details for a permit from start to finish up to submitting it to the government for approval.

    The department’s head vision is for me to become my boss’s right hand person and provide support and assistance in his job (think higher level strategic development, managing contractors, submitting permits, managing stakeholder commintments and expectations).

    Thanks!

    1. KarenT*

      I would ask him exactly that–I’m sure he’ll appreciate the gesture and may be able to give you some direct requests for support.

    2. jillociraptor*

      I did this once, and unfortunately not exactly well, so you can learn from my mistakes!

      One thing I did that was really helpful was bring context on the rest of the team and their individual personalities.

      One thing I did really poorly was bring context on why things were the way they were…well, more accurately, the information was helpful, but the tone wasn’t. I often got caught responding to my new boss’s suggestions with, “Look, we tried that two years ago and it didn’t work!” rather than being more patient and understanding. It was admittedly frustrating to hear her bring up ideas that we had lots of good evidence weren’t the right direction, but I definitely wasn’t being helpful in how I addressed that.

      What I’ve learned is that the best way to be a right-hand-man is to be a sounding board. Did you think about X? In my experience, this leads to Y, but talk me through your process. How does that connect to Z for you?

      Think about how you can help your boss bring their expertise to the work that you do–help them make those connections. (And help them avoid landmines!)

  9. C Average*

    It’s been a big week!

    I turned in my resignation, effective April 15. I am leaving a secure but frustrating and not very well-paid position at an admittedly fun workplace (I’ve stayed so long for the overall environment even though I’ve mostly loathed my particular role for quite a while) in order to freelance from home and work on the book that’s been brewing in my brain lo these many years. Because my spouse makes good money, it’s something that’s financially do-able, which I realize makes me extraordinarily lucky. It also solves a lot of logistical problems in terms of managing the household and my stepkids’ increasingly complex social and academic lives. I’ll be able to take care of the pick-ups and drop-offs and administrative stuff, reducing the stress level for everyone.

    My manager was incredibly supportive. Although we’ve had our differences, she has expressed empathy all along for how stuck I’ve been in this position, and for how long. She says she’s excited for me and proud that I’ve made this choice, and she’s indicated that she’d be interested in bringing me back as a contractor for periodic projects. This actually makes a lot of sense; the team’s workflows are very feast-or-famine, and I think we’ve been overstaffed for a long time just to ensure we have bench strength when we need it. Having a more or less on-call contractor with the necessary process and systems knowledge to do the job would be a boon to her, and I’d like having a chance to return periodically to the company.

    This feels like a really good move. I’m excited.

    7. cuppa*

      I’m so happy for you! I’ve been rooting for you for so long and I’m so happy how this is working out for you!

      1. C Average*

        Thank you for rooting for me. The good vibes from this community have been such a source of energy and forward momentum throughout this process. You guys (folks? ladies? earthlings? party people?) are awesome.

    8. Sunflower*

      Congrats! I know you’ve been waiting a long time for this so I’m happy you finally took the plunge!

      1. C Average*

        Thank you! Waiting isn’t my strong suit. It’s been challenging. I know it’s not gonna be kittens and rainbows from here. There’ll be waiting for editors to respond to my queries, waiting for the Muse to provide the right last name for my main character’s wife, waiting for my check for the editing job to arrive, waiting for the kids to get done with their science fair projects, waiting for my husband to get home for dinner . . . but I hope it at least won’t feel like waiting to figure out what I’m actually doing with my life.

      1. C Average*

        We are. The kids were like, “No babysitters this summer! No boring after-school programs! SCORE!”

        1. Swedish Tekanna*

          I don’t have children by myself, but if my sister’s children are anything to go by, I’d say your step children’s approval is the biggest validation of them all! Seriously, all the best in your new venture – it sounds awesome!

    10. Carrie in Scotland*

      Good for you, C Average.
      I look forward to reading about your ‘new life’ and how things are going from April :)

      1. C Average*

        I hope you, too, get your turn to focus on your writing someday. Your advice about applying ass to seat has been tremendously helpful, as have been your overall insights about the writing life.

    12. Leslie Knope's Waffle*

      Really happy for you, C Average – I always enjoy your comments and insight on here. :) Sending lots of good wishes/vibes your way. I hope to be in a similar position to you in the next few years (i.e. freelancing and handling family responsibilties full-time), so I’ll be really curious to hear about your experiences.

      1. C Average*

        Thanks! I’ll keep you updated. I know it CAN be done, because my mom did it. I have a feeling she and I will be talking a lot in the next few months. Anything I learn I’ll gladly share here. This community is coming along for the journey whether it wants to or not . . . :)

    14. Lily in NYC*

      Wow, this is a huge step! How great that you get to follow your dreams and that it’s not going to be a sacrifice for your family. Good luck and keep us posted. Is your book idea a novel or nonfiction?

      1. C Average*

        It’s a novel. It’s going to be called “The Dark Night of the Soul Track Club.” It’s about running, God, mistakes, love, and a bunch of other stuff. (The blurb will be better than this. I have been drinking wine with a colleague.)

    16. Dang*

      Congratulations! I’ve read some posts from you and know this has been a long time coming!

    17. C Average*

      Thanks, all! I’m super excited. I would not have made this move without this community as a sounding board, honestly. I know one can successfully make money as a writer working from home–my mom has done it for years–but it’s a step I’ve only seriously contemplated for about the last year. And a lot of that contemplation started with reading this site, getting a sense of what is and isn’t normal and expected in the workplaces, and making decisions based on that information.

      I am planning to start my new existence by taking a few weeks to just decompress and get the house in order. I have been working more or less constantly since I was 16 years old–I have ALWAYS had a job of some kind. Time and energy and money have always felt insufficient. Abundance of all three will be an utterly foreign sensation.

      The novel is my main priority, but I have some good irons in the fire in terms of articles to write and proofreading gigs to take on. Once 180 days pass, I’ll also be able to return to my current workplace on a contract basis, should the opportunity arise. I also need to get a blog up and running and actually maintain it–something I’ve historically been crappy at doing because it just wasn’t a priority.

      My new supervisor will be my cat.

    20. Not So NewReader*

      Awesome. It sounds like the conversation went okay, nothing earth-shattering and the whole experience of working there has landed in an okay place with the boss. That has to be a load off of your mind. And now on to the next chapter of your life! This is exciting. I am sure your candle will shine brightly.

      1. C Average*

        Awww, thanks! Your wise and kind words have been a candle shining brightly for me. Thank you.

    21. Mallory Janis Ian*

      OMG you did it! you have tho tell us when there’s a book– it’s on my reading list! Congratulations!

    22. MsChanandlerBong*

      Good for you! I am a professional writer/proofreader, and it’s really rewarding. I think you’re going to love it.

      1. C Average*

        Any tips? I am not a complete rookie at this, having written the occasional one-off piece for the local newspaper (the Oregonian, so a decent-sized paper) and a few magazines with pretty broad distribution. But honestly, the proofreading is something I’d really like to do! So far, all the proofreading jobs I’ve done have been for people I know or as part of my corporate work. How does one get started with that kind of work on a broader scale?

        1. Lore*

          At least if my workplace is anything to go by, you try and figure out who might administer a proofreading test at a publisher/publication you might want to proofread for. Most book publishers freelance out their proofreading; I don’t know if the same is true for magazines (perhaps not because of the turnaround time). So do some LinkedIn research for managing editors, copy chiefs, proofreading supervisors–that kind of thing. If there is a copy chief, that’s your person; if not, the managing editor can probably point you in the right direction. We prefer to start with a resume that shows some experience with long-form proofreading or copyediting, but for people that are some sort of known quantity (acquaintances and the like), we’re happy to administer the test and give a try-out to anyone who passes. (If you want to try our proofreading test, I guess, look me up on the LinkedIn group? I’m not exactly sure how that works…)

          1. C Average*

            Thanks so much! I’ve requested access to the group and will connect with you there. People have always said I’m a natural at proofreading; when there’s a spelling error or even an extra space between words, I know it sounds crazy, but it stands out so boldly to me on the page that it’s almost like it’s another color. It’s an ability I almost wish I could turn off. When I see stuff like this in otherwise good books, it really makes me enjoy them less. I actually take note if I get through a whole book without encountering an error, because it’s unfortunately pretty rare.

  10. Snafu Warrior*

    Guys, I am tired today and could use hugs. Due to chronic disorganization from one of our teams and project managers, my entire team will be working across this weekend and next. I’ve already been pulling 11-12 hour days (with another team lead) for about 2 weeks. I’m concerned we’re not going to make our delivery dates, and I honestly don’t know if anyone in an upper management position understands how little we’ve been given (by disorganized team – they have to give us a bunch of stuff to prep for publication and it was a hot mess, of course, but we have to fix it up to be client-facing) to be able to meet those dates. I feel like I should be job searching but it’s my second job out of college (first one was just a year long stint), and I’m applying to grad school soon anyway… is it even worth it? Argh. I just want to sleep.

    1. Partly Cloudy*

      I left my last job for very similar reasons. I don’t mind projects, working hard, or putting in extra time when the situation calls for it. However, I very much minded not getting the help I asked for and having the powers that be constantly putting the cart before the horse and me and my department (and many others) having to scramble around to do the actual work on time with a decent level of accuracy. So you have my sympathy (empathy?) and {hugs}.

      How soon is “soon” re: grad school? Do you have a fallback skill like bartending/serving/retail that you could get by on until then?

      1. Snafu Warrior*

        I’m applying this fall/winter to start in 2016. I don’t really have service skills. I might be able to freelance, but that would be a stretch, I think, with my level of experience. I don’t mind any of that stuff (working hard, etc) either, if it’s because we need to, and not because we had a 2 week delay getting the guts of the publication, and then three more days of delays…. and stuff that we have to reconcile/add to the publication being cast around in spreadsheets and emails after we’ve already started the copy editing process…

        1. Tris Prior*

          Ugh, this all sounds so familiar. You’re not by chance in educational publishing, are you? I absolutely feel your pain.

          1. Snafu Warrior*

            Something like that. ;) It’s a really specific facet of publishing, so I’m not going to give you the exact industry. But ancillary to education and publishing, yup.

    3. C Average*

      Ohhhh, man. I am sorry. Lots of hugs.

      I remember doing a massive weekend crisis management effort on Labor Day weekend a few years back, and in the middle of my Saturday work day, my then-boyfriend showed up with a picnic lunch (including a thermos of wine!) and a Scrabble board. We spent my lunch break sitting on a patch of lawn on our corporate campus, playing Scrabble and enjoying good food. It’s one of the nicest things anyone has ever done for me.

      I hope you can find a similar patch of joy in the upcoming weekend.

      1. Snafu Warrior*

        My boyf is bringing me a snack today, so that’s something! And yeah, I hear you. I started in October and every month has brought a new crisis that I’ve personally had to manage. How is that even possible, I ask you, universe???

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The universe thinks you are Einstein. You have to take your turn at this.

          [Yeah, that thought never worked well for me, either. But it did make me smile once in a while.]

        2. JB*

          Whenever I feel like I’m being dumped on by the universe, I think of Tig Notaro’s Live standup set and her joke about God not giving you more than you can handle. That show always makes me feel better, oddly enough.

    4. Fuzzy*

      Oh nooo :(

      Is there anyone in upper management you would feel comfortable reaching out to about this? That is, if your current manager is not receptive to the fact that this is a clusterfrak.

      *internet hugs*

      1. Snafu Warrior*

        Disorganized team reports to different people in upper management, and the director we work with is out of office for like a month doing clienty things. If it really looks like we’re not going to make it.

        1. Snafu Warrior*

          oh whoops – if it really looks like we’re not going to make it, that’ll warrant a different conversation with her, obviously.

          1. Fuzzy*

            Is there someone you can leave a “this is what’s going on, we’re doing our best but just wanted to keep you in the loop” conversation with? That way when you bring it to the attention of whomever you need to, there’s a record of you reaching out so there’s no “but why didn’t you tell us before?” thrown back at you?

            1. Snafu Warrior*

              I’m actually pretty sure that my direct boss is checking in with our director, but I’ll give him a nudge to check in with her today. We are having a meeting to discuss working this weekend anyway, so that gives us a nice segue into explaining all the kooky behavior. :)

      2. Pineapple Incident*

        points for use of the word “clusterfrak”

        I love this, and will be using it soon!

        1. Windchime*

          I’m dying to know more about the pineapple incident, actually! (Mmmmm…..pineapple….)

    5. Amethyst*

      That’s awful. :( It’s so hard to have to work long days without any breaks. I hope you’re able to get some sleep between all this.

      I guess applying to other jobs depends partly on when you think you might start classes. If it’s less than a year, I think it might be hard to transition into another job in that time period. I hope you get into the school you want!

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      Oh, you have my sympathies. I ranted a couple weeks ago on the open thread about someone on the user side of the ERP project I’m working on taking 2 weeks of vacation, and because of that, the required prep work for the next testing event was not completed on time. So this caused not only a 3 week delay, but translates to 3 consecutive weeks of travel for me in the month of April. I’m still ticked off about it.

      It’s so frustrating when other people’s mistakes result in making your life miserable.

    8. A.K.*

      I think I used to have your job, or at least one like it in a very similarly run organization. I spent a long time trying to fix it from my position near the bottom of the ladder, but eventually decided to just move on. It’s the best decision I’ve ever made. If you’ve been there for at least a year (or near a year), I say start your job search now. 2016 is a long way off, and if you get a job you like enough, you may decide that grad school isn’t in the cards for you anyway, so I wouldn’t let that stop you.

  11. aka*

    A week ago I was going to ask how bad of an idea it is to leave a job without one waiting, but it turns out it won’t be an issue. I got a new job! Unfortunately it doesn’t start for a month, but at least I know it is coming and I can finally breathe again. I did buy a resume review here just before I got the news, but I think I will wait a few months for the review. That way I can incorporate my new job into it. It nevery hurts to have an updated resume.

  12. manomanon*

    Another blog I follow linked to this article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/10/cover-letter-death_n_6819648.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063) yesterday.

    Given the number of discussions we have about cover letters here I was wondering what people’s thoughts were on the points the author makes. I certainly don’t think they’re going anywhere in the near future but I’m intrigued by the idea that managers don’t read them. The idea that cover letters haven’t changed with the times also calls to mind the college career centers still spouting advice that was applicable in the 1980’s about applying for jobs.

    1. manomanon*

      Alison I wasn’t sure where this fell on the work/non work open thread and erred on the side of cover letters being work related. I”m happy to repost this weekend if you’d prefer.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I saw that article. Periodically an article like this appears, and yes, absolutely there are hiring managers who don’t read cover letter. But the good ones do (in the vast majority of fields, at least). And it’s totally unhelpful feedback for job searchers, because it’s encouraging them to do something that will actually help them with the majority of people reading their application. It’s annoying.

    3. stillLAH*

      I applied to a job at a non-profit this week that only asked for a resume, which seemed really odd to me. (I included a cover letter in the body of the email because it seemed so weird to just say “Here’s my resume for the Teapots education position”.)

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        That’s what I was thinking– So, we should just be sending disembodied resumes into the void?

        I don’t think the author realizes that while the formal, paper cover letter is dead, email provides a nice little built-in cover letter space that seems silly to ignore!

    4. Lore*

      Also, in the article itself it sort of becomes clear that it’s talking about lame form cover letters… “Jones is careful to note that cover letters can still be effective in some cases, especially when they are personalized and reveal specific reasons why a candidate might be a good fit for a position. In general, however, he said that cover letters too often rely on vague statements (“I’m a motivated self-starter!”) instead of super-specific ones.”

      So, basically it’s saying, don’t write *bad* cover letters.

      1. manomanon*

        I do think your point is a good one. I’ve always thought they were a somewhat annoying necessity. They’re annoying, to me at least, because creating a well written targeted cover letter takes time even if I have a basic structure to use on all of them. I also don’t know that I would have clicked over to read the article with a title about not writing bad cover letters so maybe it’s titled hat way from a clickbait standpoint.

    5. Sunflower*

      Some of these points are laughable
      – You come off better in person- okay and who said a cover letter takes the place of an in person meeting? It’s a supplement to your application that you submit in order to get a face to face.
      – They’re outdated- There’s a lot of things we did in the 1950’s that we still do today. Just because we can watch the news on TV doesn’t mean we’ve stopped reading print. LinkedIn to connect? My LinkedIn profile is a general description of myself- the whole point of a cover letter is that it’s tailored to job or company.
      – Pain for hiring managers- I do a lot of stuff in my job that is annoying but also a benefit to me in my job

      Honesty, I think cover letter are more important now than in the past. In the past, you had to search out a company, possibly go on site to fill out an application(which does take a long time). Now you can apply to a job in less than 5 seconds if you really desire. A cover letter shows you aren’t just going down the list of jobs you think you might be okay for and just hitting send. However, I can understand reading a resume before a cover letter, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with assessing that a person has core skills for the job before reading why they are a fit.

      Also the author takes all of 2 sentences to note that these things only apply if you write a crap, generic letter!

      1. Trixie*

        “cover letter are more important now than in the past” so true if you want to gauge the basic writing skills of your applicants. Or the above average writing skills if its a strong letter.

      2. BRR*

        For the first point like you can just skip the first stage and go straight to interviewing so they can see you in person?

    6. Wolfey*

      Haha! My friend posted this link to Facebook, and I commented with a link to the cover letter section of AAM.

    7. SJP*

      English person here – Don’t know if anyone can really weigh in on this from the UK side but I think Cover letters are a lot less focused on here in this country. I had to help a colleague do hiring for a while at an old job and either people didn’t attached them or did and they were sparce and weren’t read.
      I haven’t really had to write cover letters for jobs i’ve applied to either. I don’t know if it’s more an American thing or that they just not an popular/seen as important here..

      Anyone from the UK weigh in?

      1. Jen RO*

        I’m in Europe and I think I’ve written 3 cover letter in my entire life (only when required by the company, i.e. the job site wouldn’t let you apply unless you had a cover letter saved). I did some resume screening for my current employer and one only person ever sent a cover letter… I read it and it did sway me toward interviewing the person, but we also interviewed a ton of people who didn’t include a letter.

        1. Duschamp*

          Maybe it’s just my field, but all of the jobs I’ve applied to in the UK have an online form with a written section headed: ‘Tell us why you are a good fit for the position advertised. Short listing will be based on meeting the requirements set out in the “person specification” document. 1200 characters max.’
          I’ve always interpreted this as a stand-in for the traditional covering letter.

    8. Kimmy Gibbler*

      I was recently hiring for a high-level position, and I am not exaggerating when I say that fully half of the online applications included no cover letter at all. Not even a “Please see my attached resume, I hope to hear from you to discuss the position further.” Nada. When I hire people, I don’t put a terrible emphasis on or stock in the cover letter, but if you can’t even take the time to write a half-assed paragraph long intro? Not worth my time. (I will note the job description didn’t say “Must include cover letter” or anything, but there’s a place for it in our online application, so fill it in!)

    9. Michele*

      I have to admit that I rarely read cover letters. I will get over 200 resumes for a given position, and the cover letters are sent to me a separate files. Typically, I don’t even open them.

    10. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ll also add, I’m hiring for a junior admin position right now, very little experience required. I can’t imagine how I’d distinguish among the hundreds of candidates if I weren’t reading cover letters. 95% of them are terrible, 5% are good, and it’s those 5% I’m focusing on. But if I could only go by resumes, I’d be totally stuck. The resumes are all pretty much similar.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        We recently hired for a senior admin position, and the cover letters were crucial to the decision! There were several applicants who were impressive in their resumes and who would have been interviewed, were it not for their cover letters ranging anywhere from “meh” to”ack!” The ones who made it into the interviews had strong resumes *and* cover letters. Really, the cover letters were make or break.

  13. GOG11*

    How do I tell/ask a coworker not to review items on my desk? I work in a lobby and while I don’t leave confidential items lying around unattended, I do work with paper copies of items and have documents (including pay contracts) come across my desk – literally.

    This coworker will rotate papers around to review them without asking or saying anything to me. It’s annoying when it is non-confidential stuff, but I feel that it rises to the level of me saying something when it contains someone else’s confidential information. I don’t want to come across awkwardly or as overly confrontational, but he really needs to stop doing this.

    1. april ludgate*

      I would just say something like, “Hey, Bob, I have those papers in a certain order, can you please stop moving them?” A lot of people are pretty particular about how they want things arranged on their desk, hopefully he’d understand that.

    2. kozinskey*

      So they just walk up and look at paperwork on your desk while you’re there? Or are they snooping when you’re not there? Either way, next time it happens, I’d probably ask them directly why they are looking around on my desk. If they say they’re looking for X report, you could say something like “I’m still working on it and will get it to you when I’m finished. By the way, some of the paperwork that lands on my desk can have sensitive information in it. For that reason, I’d really prefer it if you send me an email when you need something in particular rather than looking through my inbox.”

      1. GOG11*

        I don’t leave items out when I’m not there (because everything is so visible if it’s left out). This occurs when I’m sitting right here.

        Thank you for the suggested wording/phrasing. Yours and the versions others have proposed are great!

      2. cuppa*

        I would add depending on the situation, “If there’s a document you need to see, I’d be happy to locate it for you.”

        1. Jazzy Red*

          I’m with you, jamlady. When someone is so rude, I don’t feel any great desire to be polite to them.

          Besides, if that person learned some confidential information, and made some kind of trouble with it, guess who would be blamed for letting that person see the info in the first place?

          1. jamlady*

            Ugh exactly. I’m way more professional out loud in these situations than I am in my head haha

    4. Partly Cloudy*

      Is there a reason for this co-worker to be all up in your stuff? If it’s just a random co-worker who likes to walk by and be nosy, definitely call him out and ask him to stop. I would think he could and should be disciplined for this, since there is always a possibility of something confidential being on your desk.

      If it’s someone with whom you share the workspace and he’s trying to find items that are relevant to him, maybe come up with an organized system so everyone knows where “yours, mine, and ours” documents are kept.

      1. GOG11*

        His office is down the hall on the other side of the building. I haven’t kept close enough track to say for sure, but I don’t think it’s something he does when he’s waiting on something from me.

        1. Jazzy Red*

          OK, then ask him if he’s looking for the work he gave you and find it for him.

          You can’t allow people to rifle through your paperwork like that.

    5. Apollo Warbucks*

      Does your co-worker need access to anything on your desk? from what you write I think not, but then I can’t understand what they are actually looking for/ doing.

      but at any rate your co-worker is the one being awkward, you could try saying that you have the papers set out in a particular order and it messes with your routine or just tell them to knock it off and not touch your desk.

    6. brightstar*

      If you’re at your desk when they do that, I’d go with “Is there something in particular you were looking for? “

    7. GOG11*

      Thanks for all the replies, everyone – this behavior really rubs me the wrong way and I was struggling to come up with something that didn’t let that annoyance come across.

      1. A.K.*

        I wouldn’t be rude, but I don’t think it’s necessarily bad if you come across as annoyed when you are asking someone to stop an annoying and inappropriate behavior. It might actually be more effective if he knows it bugs you (assuming he’s a decent person and not doing it for a malicious reason).

    8. Xarcady*

      I’d go a step further and while saying something to Co-worker, I’d also put my hand on the papers and draw them towards me, or turn them back around.

      A simple, “Most of what I work with is confidential information; is there something I can help you with?” would be enough.

      Your co-worker is doing this either because a) it is a habit–one that should probably be broken, or b) he knows that you sometimes have confidential info on your desk and is trying to get a look at it.

    9. Amethyst*

      Can you get one of those organizer things? Not necessarily to actually put the sensitive documents in, since you need them in front of you, but to create somewhat of a barrier between you and the edge of your desk. People go through stuff on my co-worker’s desk all the time partly because there’s an open line of sight between her and them. On my desk the computer monitor, phone, and plastic organizer give me a “wall” between people and my papers that I can still see them across.

      I don’t know what to suggest saying, unfortunately. My coworker has to put her hand on top of the papers and ask “Are you looking for something?” because people here just don’t listen.

      1. GOG11*

        Unfortunately, my desk juts out in an awkward way that would make creating a walk look awkward and it wouldn’t be very functional. I’ve shifted down so most of my workspace is further away from this area, but this particular person will pull papers toward him. I did put a little sign directing people to the various work areas in the vicinity, but it doesn’t stop people from viewing my desk as a common area (several people sit on it to talk to colleagues, this person looks at whatever he pleases).

        That is a really good idea, though. My predecessor did sit at the other edge of the desk (the one treated as a common area, which left no unused space jutting out into the lobby) but I am intentionally creating distance between myself and others due to fragrance allergies.

        1. SLG*

          Would a potted plant on your desk solve the people-sitting-on-it problem? Preferably a cheap one with a fragile pot. That way the first person to knock it over gets a dramatic smash as the pot hits the floor, and it can be cheaply replaced with another fragile pot. A few rounds of that might solve it :-)

          1. GOG11*

            This is a lovely idea!!!!! A coworker keeps plants all around the office so it wouldn’t look out of place at all! Thank you for the suggestion :)

    10. WorkingAsDesigned*

      Good feedback from others about putting your hand on the documents, and taking them back!

      In addition, what about putting your documents into a file folder(s)? Maybe it will help to alleviate your coworker’s urge to read them, since the information won’t be visible.

      1. GOG11*

        I would do this, but most of the time it’s something I’m actively working with, just finished up with, am about to work on, or that I’m using as part of a larger project (for instance, sorting the items). If it’s not something I’m using, it is put away. Though maybe I’ll just turn items upside down unless that is the thing I am currently looking at right that second.

        I am just confused as to why he feels this is okay.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          My guess is that he is one of those people that has to be told it’s not okay. He missed the memo on that one. I like the idea of saying that things are in a particular order and need to be kept in that order. You may want to add, “Going forward, please feel free to ask me for whatever you need. I will be happy(OR I prefer) to get that for you.” This is on the off chance that he feels it’s rude to ask you and gives you a pretext for telling him your main message.

        2. catsAreCool*

          Maybe since he’s gotten away with it so far, he thinks he can keep doing it. Some people will do what they want if they can get away with it.

  14. Not Today Satan*

    This week I have an interview for a job I’m way overqualified for. However, I’m excited about the opportunity because I think it’ll be a good pivot point for my career (I want to transition into nonprofit work). I have two questions.
    1-it’s a very low paying, basically data entry, temporary job. They’re hiring 10 temps and I think many of them will be college students. I think that rather than wearing a suit (I fear I would look/feel out of place and out of touch), I will wear a pencil skirt, stockings, a blouse, and a cardigan. Thoughts?

    2-if they ask me what my most recent job paid, would it be okay to say that it paid more, but I’m excited about this opportunity for the reasons above? Or skip saying that it paid more, and just say it’s not relevant and I’m excited about this job because X?

    1. HigherEd Admin*

      I would still wear a suit; I imagine all the college students would be wearing suits as well.

    2. kozinskey*

      I’m a fan of pencil skirt + coordinated blazer for a formal look that doesn’t quite rise to suit territory. I would probably feel like a cardigan is too informal for an interview, especially for someone with a lot of experience.

      For salary, can you dodge the question by saying what pay range you’re looking for? Saying it’s not relevant might be a little confrontational.

        1. kozinskey*

          There’s no room for negotiation in that? Strange. At any rate, maybe you could respond by saying you were paid at an appropriate level for that field, but you’re excited to move into the nonprofit sector and understand that this area has different pay standards than the field you were in.

          1. AVP*

            For a temp data-entry job that they’re mass hiring for, it’s not that surprising they have a set ‘take it or leave it’ salary.

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      I think it’s a good idea to tone down the way you dress slightly so you look smart but not over dressed. I went to an interview once and was way over dressed in a suite and felt very out of place.

      Don’t get into your salary history, if they ask about salary I’d just state what you understand the range to be or if you have enough information to go on state a figure that you would accept.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        Yeah, I know that it’s normal to be dressed more formally than the interview, but one time I wore a suit and the interviewer wore a denim skirt and a large men’s t shirt. I felt so self-conscious.

    4. cuppa*

      I would wear an outfit that works either with or without a jacket, that way you can add or remove it easily to suit (no pun intended) the situation.

    5. Sunflower*

      Try to avoid giving salary and say ‘I know the job range is this and that is within my requirements’.

      That being said, as someone who was just turned down for a great opportunity because of over qualifications, it’s really really important that you stress all the opportunities outside of the actual job at hand and try to self yourself the right amount. I would actually focus a little more on the challenges the job will bring as opposed to what you know will be cakewalk for you.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        Thanks for the response. Would you mind clarifying what you mean by stressing opportunities other than the job at hand? Do you mean discussing how this job fits in with my career goals?

        1. Sunflower*

          Yes but try to get specific and speak more about the job as it exists in the nonprofit environment. They know you know how to do data entry so what other things do you think you will be exposed to that are new to you while working this specific job? Also how does this temp job work? Is it a temp-to-hire, strictly temp? If hired, would you be in a different position? I would try to get thatinformation before hand and work it into your responses.

          I’m not sure if this is your case but I’m the only one in my org who does my job so I don’t really have a mentor. It’s something I really would like because I’ve never really had anyone to learn from. Do you see those opportunities at your company? I think that’s important

    6. BRR*

      First, amazing screen name (maybe I should change mine to rolodex of hate)

      If they ask what your most recent job paid I wouldn’t say it paid more but it paid X and explain how you’re ok with that and hope to transition to this field.

  15. Margaret Lea*

    What are everyone’s opinions on applying make-up at work in your private office? I got back from a business trip fairly late this morning due to a flight cancellation and came straight from the airport to work. I shut the door to my office so I could nurse some coffee in private and put on make up (trying to make myself feel alive since I am still wearing yesterday’s clothes and haven’t had a chance to shower). One of my coworkers walked in (without knocking!) and after seeing what I was doing, told me how unprofessional it was to apply make-up at work. I’m not firing on all cylinders today so I just stared at him until he left. Did I do something wrong here?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Wow, he was absolutely in the wrong. Don’t let him get to you. Was he raised in a barn?

    2. Fawn*

      Barging in trumps applying makeup on the unprofessional scale, IMO. And I definitely don’t think there’s anything unprofessional about touching up in your office with the door closed.

      1. Karowen*

        Yeah, in the bathroom or in your private office with your door closed is fine. In an open office or in your cubicle is a little unprofessional, but that’s not the case here.

    3. Helka*

      Nah, I think your coworker was the one over the line here. Especially given your situation — what, were you supposed to put on your makeup at the airport instead, while shepherding all your bags and whatnot in a public restroom? And it’s your private office, with a door that closes. He needs to get over himself — and learn to knock.

    4. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Good grief. It’s your own private office, as long as you haven’t set up a full vanity I’d say you’re perfectly fine! The coworker, on the other hand, was a jerk to barge in and worse to berate you.

    5. Payroll Lady*

      If you had left your door open, then I would have agreed with your co-worker, however, you had closed your door for PRIVACY, which he invaded…. He was in the wrong, not you.
      As for him walking in without knocking, I would definitely address this with the co-worker. He had no idea why your door was closed. At one company I worked for, I had to lock my door if I was working on something because some people felt it was ok to just walk in, even after my assistant would tell them I was busy and on DND…. It finally stopped after the CEO saw what happened and that people were not respecting the boundaries.

    6. fposte*

      It’s absolutely fine to do that in a closed office. And one day your colleague is going to walk in on somebody pumping breastmilk, and that’s going to go very badly.

      5. Beancounter in Texas*

        I now have an office with a door for that very reason. It doesn’t have a lock, but fortunately nobody dared to open the door when it was closed. (I’m no longer pumping.)

        In a former workplace, employees took pride in figuring out how to get past my locked door to interrupt me while I was working on tasks nearing deadlines-with-financial-penalties. (Yeah, it was that kind of environment.) I struck gold when I devised a sign that stated I was working on payroll and “if you want to paid on time, come back later. THIS MEANS YOU.” Nobody interrupted me when that sign was posted. If only a closed door was a good enough boundary…

    7. Sans*

      My first thought would be to say “Not as unprofessional as your walking in without knocking.”

    8. LadyB*

      Not in my opinion. You shut the door, which in a normal office means ‘I need/want privacy’ he walked in without knocking. He’s definitely the unprofessional one in this story.

    9. Lucy*

      Um, I apply makeup in the office all the time (granted, in the bathroom since I don’t have an office…..wouldn’t do it at my desk since we have an open seating plan) – I didn’t realize we were being unprofessional!

      JK lol that guy is a weenie.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Eh, I do mine at my desk if I’m pretty sure I have 30 seconds when no one will be walking by!

        1. Lucy*

          Yeah, I don’t think it’s weird if somebody else does it, I just personally wouldn’t since I’m literally smack dab in the middle of the room…..plus the lighting is better in the bathroom. ;)

    10. kozinskey*

      You did nothing wrong. He is awful. It particularly annoys me that a guy (who I presume doesn’t need to put on makeup to look professional) felt the need to tell you how to manage your appearance.

    11. Partly Cloudy*

      What everyone else said.

      Depending on the company culture, I don’t think applying makeup with the door *open* is necessarily unprofessional, unless customers might walk by and see you or something. It depends on the environment.

      I, too, have had to either lock my office to keep people from barging in (sometimes I’d change clothes at the end of the day, etc.). A couple of years ago, I was in a two-day live webinar and I put a sign on my closed door stating as much so that even if someone did come in, hopefully they wouldn’t be talking at top volume and would just drop something off and go.

      1. Partly Cloudy*

        Ugh. Mentally delete the word “either” when reading my comment above, please. I switched trains of thought mid-typing and forgot to correct that. I wish I could edit my posts!

      2. Sunflower*

        I agree. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with applying makeup with the open or with someone you work with seeing you do it. It’s something that can make people uncomfortable so even if you were doing it with the door open, it’s not like someone is forced to stare you while you do it as it would be in an open work space.

        You coworker is in the wrong here!!!

    13. Katie the Fed*

      As long as you’re not banging a colleague on the desk, what you do in your office with the door closed is your business.

      2. kozinskey*

        Well, there are a *few* other things you could be doing with your door closed that might not be just your busines….

    14. Ann Furthermore*

      Your co-worker is an ass. There’s nothing wrong with applying makeup at work. I have a cube, so if I need to do anything more than reapply lipstick I go to the ladies room, but if I had an office I would close the door and do the same thing.

      1. JB*

        He’s totally an ass. I’m wondering if for some reason he was embarrassed, and his way of countering that feeling is by saying you were doing something wrong?

    15. Anonsie*

      I’ll take “ladies doing lady things at work is unprofessional and must always be kept totally secret” for $500, Alex.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      “told me how unprofessional it was to apply make-up at work. ”

      “My door was closed for a reason. It’s professional to knock first when someone’s door is closed.”

    17. catsAreCool*

      I think just staring at him the way you did may have gotten it through to him that he was the one being rude. I hope so.

    18. Natalie*

      When I had an office I changed clothes in it… So yeah, he needs to learn how to knock.

    19. Elder Dog*

      If your door doesn’t lock, get one of those rubber wedges used to keep doors from blowing shut when they’re propped open. Prop your door closed, and if anybody tries to get in and gets upset because they can’t, tell them sometimes the door sticks. You don’t need to tell anyone it only sticks when you shove the wedge in place to make it stick.

      Wedges are pretty easy to defeat if necessary, so you might tell someone you trust in case of emergency.

  16. Fawn*

    I’m wanting to make a career change from higher ed into human services. While I have some counselling experience, I’m beginning to realise that I may need more tailored practical education to make this possible – but I’m hesitant to go back to school for a college diploma after completing a Bachelor’s and Master’s degree (because of time and money). I’m weighing it against focusing on gaining volunteer experience instead.

    People in human services (case management in the criminal justice field, especially) what kind of background did you come from? Is volunteer experience or a practical diploma more valuable?

    1. Fawn*

      I just realised that this reads as though I’m only looking for input from those in criminal justice – not the case! Any insight is much appreciated.

      1. Chai Latte*

        In my experience having a certification like CASAC would be incredibly helpful in breaking into the field. In my city, case management positions are surprisingly competitive.

    2. Mimmy*

      You are wise in focusing on volunteering as it gives you real-world experience in what you’re hoping to tailor your career towards. Additionally, I agree with Chai Latte – pursuing a certification can be very valuable and, in many cases, is required (or at least strongly encouraged). I’m not sure how common it is, but some employers will support employees in continuing education / professional development efforts.

    3. Onymouse*

      I don’t know if this is OP’s case, but it may be useful to note that “college diploma” in the Canadian sense is similar to an associate’s degree in the US, not an industry certification.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Where I am you can do entry level jobs in some human service organizations with a HS diploma. If you have a bachelor’s in anything you can get something just above entry level. I would apply for a couple openings and see what happens. (This does not refer to criminal justice, because I have no reference points on that.)

  17. b613*

    I’m wondering if people have great questions they ask when they are interviewing for a newly created position. A lot of my “what did the next person go on to do” and career path questions go out the window, as a lot of it seems hypothetical.

    1. HigherEd Admin*

      I would ask questions about the hiring manager’s vision for the role. What does success look like, how does s/he envision the role growing, how does s/he envision the team growing? Given that it’s a brand new position, what challenges does s/he foresee the person in this position facing?

    2. Lucy*

      All of my jobs have been new positions – I usually ask what the first priority for this person is going to be (training, projects, etc.), how they envision this person working with other departments, what programs or tools would be “nice to haves” (if not listed in the ad already)….

    3. Julie*

      My experience with newly created positions have been as a marketing support role where they hired a new team just to make promo materials and laid us all off once they were acquired (partly thanks to those materials), document review for a law office (another planned short-term gig that they pretended was long-term), a job filling a gap in PR/website knowledge for a government agency (and every other job they needed done by someone fresh or a sucker), and finally as office manager at an expansion location (in which the role has evolved greatly over the past 6 months).

      Definitely ask about training, who will be assigning work to you, what they envision career growth for this position to entail (there are often promotional tracks in an office and knowing where you fit into that is key), and seek clarification that this is long-term, how success will be tracked, and how often to be checking in on how the position is evolving. Also, clarify if this position was created in response to someone else being overwhelmed or a new planned need of the business; you can end up with someone treating you like an assistant with the former (okay if they are meant to assign work to, not okay otherwise) and you can end up packing your bags if the business is overly ambitious with some sort of experience in the latter so followup questions are key there.

    4. Fuzzy*

      I came into my position during a reformatting of the role, so asking the questions HigherEd and Lucy mentioned are great, but I would also ask what is already in place to help this person sucked. Does the direct manager know the role well, or will it be a game of telephone through their manager? Who would you look to for training? Will there be peers or will you be scrambling to figure out how to do simple stuff?

      A lot of that happened to me, and it was annoying, but unavoidable.

    5. Megan*

      I would probably try to ask a lot of questions about how they envision the job, in terms of the duties, who it reports to, how it fits in, etc.

      My first full time job out of college was a newly created position that ended badly for a variety of reasons, but I think a big part of it was that they didn’t really know what they wanted from the position, and there was no supervisor, so it made it hard to succeed.

      Good luck!

    6. Dawn*

      I’m a big fan of asking why the position was created- this will give you a great idea of what you’re likely to get into, plus give you insight into the company in general. There’s lots of reasons why a position is created- company is expanding, company won new contract and needs more people, company decided they needed to create a specialty position for duties X, Y, and Z instead of lumping them in with other stuff, whatever. If you know the why, then you can surmise what the “omg my hair is on fire!!!!” duties will be when you take the job, and decide if you want it from there.

      It’s also good for weeding out those positions where a company is like “I dunno, it seems like a good idea to have a Junior Sub Senior Understudy of Teapot Handle Stress Reduction”, because IME those always, always, always end in a layoff.

    8. jillociraptor*

      There are two things I’d ask based on seeing a new role go a little south without clear answers: Why was this position created, and what will be the process for determining the goals and priorities of this role?

      My former colleague was hired into a role that was basically, “We’ve got a lot of stuff to do…let’s just jam it all in this new role.” Every time he asked for help in figuring out what to prioritize, his boss came back to him saying that was his job to figure out. He left after about 6 months, and his successor is GREAT at operating in this environment, but it’s definitely not for everyone.

      With a newly created role, there is often a lot of ambiguity and lack of clarity. On the one hand, this could mean you’ll get TONS of latitude. On the other hand, it could mean that you’ll just be facing chaos!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think it’s a great idea to put a lot of weight on any one question, but I tend to put some weight on this question: “What will be my immediate tasks the first few weeks I am here?”

      If they cannot layout the starting point for you, start looking closer at their other answers to see if you find other concerns.

  18. HigherEd Admin*

    I just want to give a big shout-out to the HR person who is coordinating the interview process I’m in the midst of. She proactively reaches out to me with updates on the status/progress of the process, even if it’s just to say, “things are taking longer than expected.” I love that she does this without me badgering her, and it makes me feel so much more comfortable with the unknown quantities of an interview process! Yay for awesome HR reps!

    2. Sunflower*

      I was submitted for a job through an agency and the recruiter checks in with me at least every other day! Haven’t heard anything concrete back yet but wow I’m really shocked!

  19. Afiendishthingy*

    How do you keep from taking things personally at work? Going to try to be as succinct as possible -I’ve been struggling for 6 months with a difficult case/client that I inherited from a former employee. FormerEmployee (who left before I started) has a reputation for being awesome in many ways but also for giving clients everything they wanted even if it wasn’t clinically appropriate or to the clients’ benefit; this case probably should have closed years ago.

    We finally had the meeting to try to end services last week and after about the tenth time the client (client’s mother technically) responded to one of my concerns with a variation on “Well that’s because you didn’t do your job right” I started crying, in front of her, a coworker, and two employees of another agency. (only a couple minutes, quiet, excused myself to the bathroom and then resumed the meeting but MORTIFYING )We somehow ended the meeting with offering her 3 more months of services but with somebody else replacing me as clinician.

    Logically I know this is a learning experience- this job has considerably more responsibility than my previous roles- and that it’s not actually personal, this woman has a tough life, I was the agent of change, and her coping mechanism is to be kind of rude and horrible. None of my coworkers or bosses agree with the client’s assessment of my abilities. But I do know that while I was never really set up to succeed in this case I did make mistakes and I let the client get under my skin early on and I feel like that set the tone for subsequent encounters. So I’m just having trouble letting go of some anger and shame towards her and myself at how everything turned out. Advice for how to move on??

    1. YourCdnFriend*

      That really blows? I think you’ve learned everything you can from the experience and the best thing to do to move on is to just stop stewing over it (way easier said than done).

      I would recommend treating yourself to something small that makes you feel like you’re starting fresh (a manicure or a new book series or something). Use that starting fresh feeling to come into the office, clean off your desk and focus on what’s next. You’ve learned what you could from a crappy situation and now you’ll move forward with confidence. Even if you’re faking that confidence at first, it will eventually turn into the real thing.
      Good luck!

    2. Pontoon Pirate*

      I think you are in probably in need of some self-care after this one–does your office offer an EAP or anything similar? Shame and anger are really powerful emotions, and it’s really important that you’re moving forward on good footing, because this client won’t be the only adverse client (which I know you know–but you’re probably feeling caught in this feedback loop right now).

      Take care of yourself. You’re doing a tough job. What would you tell someone else, if they were in your shoes?

      1. afiendishthingy*

        I have a good therapist :) Who pointed out a couple months back that the fact that RudeClient is the only parent with whom I haven’t been able to build even a little rapport is diagnostic of her issues, not mine, which is helpful. (And I do have other parents who are difficult to deal with but she was the worst.) I did do the best I could with what I was given. I’m definitely relieved it is at least off my plate now, even if I don’t love how it ended. But hey, tomorrow is another day.

        1. fposte*

          Did you just make a massive Freudian slip by calling your client a parent? Hmm, as the therapists say :-).

          1. Afiendishthingy*

            Hahaha, no. Technically my clients are kids under 21 w disabilities, this woman is really the client’s mother not the client. My rapport with my own parents is pretty good :)

            2. Anna*

              Remember to forgive yourself, too. This woman sounds like she has got what she wanted (continuation of services) by bullying and basically being a pain in the rear until everyone capitulated. You got caught up in her awfulness, so don’t be too hard on yourself about your reaction.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      This may not work for you, but what works for me is to think about how the other person is probably scared or upset about the circumstances, in this case probably feeling powerless, and they may be using the only leverage they have.

      Or they may just be an awful person, but regardless, they really want this particular thing for some particular reason, even if they’re not clear about one, or the other, or both of those components. In this case they didn’t want to make you cry, they wanted these services to continue, probably indefinitely.

      Thinking about it like that depersonalizes it for me, and it also helps inform my approach. Sometimes people just feel like no one is listening or taking their concerns seriously, and recognizing that can defuse some tantrums.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Yeah, I really have thought a lot about this, and came to the exact conclusions you did in the first paragraph. I really do sympathize with her situation, but it sucks being her punching bag. (Which is probably not the right term, because she’s passive aggressive, not a shouter. She insults me in a conversational, incredulous tone and gives me mean smiles… the shouty parents are easier.)

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          And of course I didn’t mean that you should have to put up with this, but when you’re in a service job, this is the approach that I find helps me to deal with clients that I can’t or won’t fire. I wasn’t in a position to fire clients for a long time, but I was also lucky to have supervisors that did not tolerate any kind of verbal abuse of their front-line phone staff employees.

    4. cuppa*

      I know how you feel, and I’m sorry, that sucks.
      A lot of people act this way because it works for them. They know if they’re a jerk, they get what they want. Others are out of options, or are frustrated with themselves or their life or their circumstances, and they act out and express those feelings towards whatever misdirected target they can . Some are dealing with mental illness and can’t help themselves. Sometimes people are dealing with all of the above.
      The best thing to do is care for yourself, build up some self-esteem, and learn from the situation. Accept that you can’t win every battle, but learn enough that you can win everyone possible. Good luck.

    5. Mimmy*

      Any sort of profession where you’re working directly with people can be emotionally draining. Self-care is critically important, both for you and the clients you serve. Have you talked with your supervisor about this?

      Oof, this is why I decided not to go in the clinical direction I’d originally intended when I was pursuing my MSW. Yes I know many clinicians struggle, but depersonalizing such instances has never been easy for me, even when I was younger. I realize now that you have to have a really thick skin to be in the helping professions, or at least know how to defuse the emotional effects of difficult cases and clients.

      Good luck to you.

    6. Sunflower*

      It helps to remind yourself that the client’s crazy assessment of you is clearly no reflection of your own abilities. Take solace in knowing your company is in your corner(that can be hard to come by some days).

      Is there anyone else in your company in a similar role as you? It would help a lot if you could find a mentor since I’m sure you aren’t the only person who has dealt with this. It can also help with you adjusting into this new role that is kind of foreign to you.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Yes, I’m very fortunate that I work with a lot of people who have the same or similar roles and we do give each other a lot of support. I think they’re probably tired of hearing me perseverate over this one though :)

    7. Jules*

      “I’m sorry, I am not XYZ. Our company’s policy is that we allow only ABC”
      “I’m sorry, if you are not happy with my service. Would you like me to refer you to another clinician?”

      Don’t let clients bully you at work. Be polite, be firm and be nice. If there is a judgement call to be made, refer to the person in the correct pay grade i.e. supervisor/administrators. The problem with exceptions is it’s only ok until something goes wrong. The same people demanding this exception will throw lawsuits at you.

    8. LCL*

      Sometimes, when people at work are being jerks because they are jerks, and you have examined your own conduct and believe you behaved correctly, and your coworkers are agreeing with you, it is time to fall back on contempt. Not as a way of life, or as a way of approaching clients, and not a majority of the time. But you should be able to tell yourself that the client’s mom is a rude loser because she acts like a rude loser, and you are better than her because you know how to behave.

      I can tell it is hard for you to call a loser a loser, and your empathy which made you choose your profession is a wonderful thing. But that same empathy will blind you to the fact that jerks are gonna be jerks, sometimes, and not because of anything you did.

      Or you can tell yourself that your client’s mom will some day get sick and die. If someone has been exceptionally mean to me, I find comfort in that thought. I would never hasten their death, I would even give them CPR/call 911/do first aid for them, but still…

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        You guys have all been helpful but this may be my favorite response :) thanks all.

      2. Afiendishthingy*

        And to elaborate- I do struggle with disliking people and I spend a lot of time going through the checklist of how it’s not about me, it’s about them, but I always come back to “… But also she’s a mean jerk and I hate her.” She does have a rough deal. She is also a jerk and I do not like her – that I think is the heart of what I was having trouble accepting so thanks :)

        1. HelenM*

          I love this post and all the replies. I had a similar experience where I cried in front of a client, colleagues and everyone waiting outside a busy courtroom. I still cringe when I think of it! Empathy can be in itself difficult to contextualise when you deal with clients who have developed toxic behaviours to deal with multiple issues. You’re really dealing with professionals in terms of knowing “the system” who have zero empathy for you, your good heart/long years of education/ crippling student loans/ decision to work in the public sector…I could go on but I’m sure you know all this.
          I really like the simplicity of “sometimes people are jerks”. I’d got so into understanding underlying issues and accepting resulting behaviours that I wound up berating myself for the whole next week. It didn’t help that I had the constant thought of ” client only said that cos I’m a woman” running in the background. My client acted like a jerk. Your client acted like a passive aggressive jerk with a cherry on top. Allowing myself to mentally stick my tongue out at client would’ve saved me a lot of grief. Please mentally flip yours the bird from me.
          I applaud you for your courage, fortitude and your good sense in sharing this (and for making it to the bathroom before crying).

    9. Beancounter in Texas*

      No advice, but hugs. I’ve cried in the office (and fled to bawl in the bathroom) many times. Sending good vibes for you.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      My burn out is going to show. This is a person who knows how to manipulate the system and the people in the system. You probably will go quite a while before you see this again. But I cannot promise you won’t see it. Probably the next time, you will have grown in different ways and it will not effect you as much as the next time.

      What I have done with these situations is- first, wait for a calmer moment. So not this weekend. Maybe next week. This woman threw out a number of statements, let’s call them curve balls. Think about the curve balls and think about the intent behind the statement. Take one curve ball at a time and work with it. So the statement “that is because you did not do your job right” is based on frustration but she choose to lash out at other people and frustrate THEM. The sentence is designed/crafted to MAKE you feel miserable. (Now, that makes ya wonder what she’s doing to the kid, right?) It also allows her to feel that she has identified the problem correctly. And -reality- she has not correctly identified the problem.

      The problem correctly stated is that your company does not offer the service she is looking for/needs. And no one has the spine to tell her. So you try, it blows up and someone back pedals and give her three more months. In three months she probably will be back screaming at that person. Because this works for her.
      The next time you have some one this difficult, get buy-in and participation from your cohorts. Don’t try to do this alone- find people who are willing to speak up and expand on what you are saying or back you up with additional inputs. Typically, there should be two people working on this. When she threw a curve ball at you, it would be your partner’s turn to start speaking while you collected your thoughts for a minute. A few minutes later, when she throws a curve ball at your cohort, then it is your turn to jump in and support your cohort.

      But, anyway, the main idea here is review the toughest points of the conversation and craft answers for those points. This is how to prepare and how to have the presence of mind necessary for when something like this happens, by autopsying the Bad Episode. And I always figure if I prepare for it, I will never need it! ;) Take a calm time, and think through what to say to these types of comments. Keep it short- you only need one or two sentences to redirect the conversation.

      As far as the tears, eh, it comes with human service. Probably every one of your coworkers has sat and cried at one point or another. If it was not from being verbally attacked by a guardian , then it’s from something else- such as inability to help a given individual. There’s many reasons.

      I also suggest firming up guidelines for service. Ideally, print them out so that guardians can see for themselves if their person might qualify. Not every organization can meet every need that is out there. If you can make a referral list this would help make it a tiny bit easier to deliver the message “no, we can’t help you, but you might try Jane Smith over at ABC. I think they might offer a service that is a better match for your loved one.”

      You’re human, ease up on you. This woman did not cut you any slack. But you can give yourself some slack here and you should.

  20. Noelle*

    I start my new job next week! I posted last week that my boss wasn’t taking my leaving well, but I took everyone’s advice to continue acting professional and ignore his behavior. It seems to have worked! Fortunately things died down after a couple days and things are going a lot better now.

      1. Noelle*

        Thank you! I’m very excited, and I already met the team I’ll be working with and they’re really nice and smart. Plus, although I understand Alison’s stance on dream jobs, this….is pretty much a dream job.

  21. Leslie Knope's Waffle*

    *How do you help a more junior employee to succeed when you are not their manager?*

    I currently work on a small team of teapot designers – Belle (junior designer), me (designer), and Gaston (senior designer). There is a strong possibility that I will be taking an internal position on another team in the next few months. If this happens, they will be back filling my designer role and I know Belle would like to be considered for it.

    Belle is very smart, articulate and generally good at her junior designer responsibilities. However, to be promoted to the designer position, she would need to be more assertive and improve her skills in teapot handle design. I myself came on the team as a junior designer and was told I would not be promoted unless I became more assertive and confident in my abilities. Only then was I promoted.

    For example, Belle and I work on a large project together. I lead most of the meetings and will often defer to Belle to “jump in” with comments/feedback – but she never does. I was say things like, “Belle really worked on that aspect of the project. Belle – would like to provide some information to the group?” Many times, Belle will just sit there in silence or at the most, offer up a few sentences. She does not come across confident of her work.

    If I take the internal position, I have a feeling that Gaston will ask me if I think Belle is ready for the designer role. If Im being honest, at this point I would say no and offer up things I think she needs to work on. Belle has never reached out to me for feedback, but if she did, I would have a few suggestions. I would not offer the feedback if she doesn’t ask me directly.

    Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions?

    1. Fawn*

      Is Gaston Belle’s manager?

      I know, as a junior employee who works with senior staff aside from my manager, I would be very open to feedback on my work (and, to be honest, really annoyed if someone gave negative feedback to my manager without addressing it with me first, if I am generally good at my job). What’s stopping you from telling Belle your thoughts kindly and constructively as a colleague?

    2. fposte*

      Well, she may just not grow the way you’d like her to. But why not just ask her if she’d like some feedback, given that you know she’s interested in advancing?

      And then I’d give her the feedback and let it go after that; don’t take on her growth as your project.

    3. april ludgate*

      Depending on how Junior she is, it might not have occurred to her to reach out to you directly for feedback. If she came into this position from being a student or from having a job with less freedom she might be used to receiving specific feedback without asking for it. Also, if she’s generally a quiet person it might never have occurred to her that she should be participating more in meetings, it can be intimidating to speak up when you’re a newer employee surrounded with people who have more experience than you (I can personally attest to this). I can’t speak for Belle, I would be really disappointed if there was something I could improve upon to have a better chance at a promotion, but no one told me that it needed improvement. She probably thinks her contributions are fine if no one says otherwise.

      If you don’t feel comfortable talking to her directly, you can always pass your thoughts along to Gaston for him to address, but someone should be giving her this feedback.

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Does Belle know that you might be leaving your position soon? If it’s an open secret, maybe you could just ask her if she’s interested (even though you know she is) and offer to talk to her about what it takes to succeed in the position.

    5. Leslie Knope's Waffle*

      Something I forgot to mention (which may or may not affect the advice that’s already been given) is that Belle came to our team as a bit of a kicked puppy. Her previous position was very stressful – her manager/mgmt was verbally abusive to her when she gave her resignation, and she cried and was asked to leave for the day to “clean herself up.” (The management of that team really take it personally when people decide to leave and give them a hard time, but never to the extent that they did to Belle.) She’s had some additional bad work experiences too, so part of me handles her with kid gloves (even though I know I shouldn’t).

      To answer someone’s question, she does know that I’m looking for a new position, but I haven’t told anyone (except my manager, which I’m required to do) that there is a very good liklihood that I’ll be moving on in a few months. I’m planning to tell Belle once I have a firm offer (and acceptance) in hand.

      1. S*

        As the junior member of my (also small!) team, I will say that the other employees of my organization (outside my department too) have been absolutely incredible in this area–both in making sure that I have opportunities to show my successes and making sure that the right people know about what I’m doing right and where I’m improving. It means a lot to senior staff when other people in the office not on my team can say that I’m a (forgive the cliche) a rockstar at what I do and what I help them with.

        It seems like you’re trying to do that, but what would be really great would be a conversation with Belle about her career goals. It doesn’t have to be formal; going out for coffee for 15 mins during the day could work. Maybe she’d like to remain a junior designer and going for a promotion isn’t really what she wants at this moment? Or, more likely, her previous work experiences have made her hesitant to speak up, in which case, I think that making it clear that this is a supportive environment will help a lot.

        1. Anna*

          This a great suggestion. We’ve all talked about PTSD from jobs and it sounds like Belle is suffering from that. Sometimes it helps when someone has come from an awful situation to actually hear that the team is supportive and really wants to hear from her about her designs, contributions, thoughts on a project. It might help her feel good enough to speak up if she knows someone will have her back.

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            I second this, and I also want to point out that it takes a long time to recover from something like that. Keep doing what you’re doing– support her, give her credit for her work, think about her and be concerned for her professional well-being. She may eventually open up more, she may not, but you’re doing what you can.

            I have a junior team member who is really great but completely un-assertive, and it’s baffling (and a little annoying sometimes). I do my best to make sure she has a voice, support her opinions, all that stuff. She still apologizes for everything, but we’re getting somewhere.

    6. Sunflower*

      I would talk to Belle about her professional wants and where she sees herself going. Mention you think a designer role will be opening up and she could possibly be a good fit for it. I would then give the feedback. Sometimes its better hearing feedback from someone who is just a bystander and not responsible for your employment.

    7. HumbleOnion*

      For the example you gave, maybe it would help her confidence level if you had a quick huddle before your project meetings. Let her know that you want her to talk about the sections she worked on. I’ll often draw a complete blank if I’m asked to jump in with comments. But if I’m able to prepare ahead of time, I can jot a few notes down so I don’t forget what I want to mention. That might make her look more confident in her work.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I would tell her these points that you have said here. And I would add something about you feel that she will be really good at this that is why you wanted to talk to her for a minute about this stuff. Tell her you have a couple things to say that you think will really help her out and someone said something similar to you. You are just passing it forward.

    9. Geek Girl*

      Something that has helped me as a former junior staff member with a more quiet personality coming from a bad previous work situation was getting a heads up before the meeting about what I was expected to contribute.

      Can you touch base with her before the meeting – “At the teapot design update meeting tomorrow, can you be prepared to talk a little about teapot handle design?” That gives her some time to pull her thoughts together and ask questions of you about what people in the meeting will want to hear.

  22. GrumpityGrump*

    Going deep under cover for this one. For the second time in the last 6 months, I have been “selected” to participate in a leadership program. One is within my organization, the other isn’t. To my horror, the second one will start just like the first did – with a retreat at a lodge featuring a challenge ropes course.

    I am middle-aged, I am an experienced professional, I have zero desire for forced slumber parties with strangers, I’m out of shape and overweight, and what I’m doing to remedy that will yield no noticeable results by the time this hell rolls around. Want to help me improve the skills tied to leadership? Let me sit down with you and discuss case studies with practical application to my team and my profession.

    Grumble grumble grumble thanks for letting me vent grumble grumble grumble.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      You have my sympathies. I wonder what they expect you to learn from this “retreat” that you didn’t learn at the last one. Did the first one provide any valuable leadership skills?

      1. GrumpityGrump*

        Without giving too much detail, it’s coincidental that these two unrelated programs run together (the first one is ongoing). The internal one is part discussion/reading and part special projects. The external one is more networking than anything. In both cases you can opt out of individual activities but not the actual event. But you know how much fun it is to be the one declining and on the sidelines standing around. I appreciate all the sympathy!

    3. Amethyst*

      …Ropes course?! “Sorry, I can barely hold onto the railings on the bus. I can’t participate in a ropes course! I’ll be happy to cheer others on though.”

      I’m sorry you’re stuck doing this.

    5. A.K.*

      This is totally horrifying. I’m terrified of heights, but I think I come across as confident and fearless in professional settings, so this would be an awful way for me to bond with coworkers.

      The only thing I can think of is offering to take photos or videos of the course? That way you’re not just sitting on the sidelines, but participating in a way that isn’t awful.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I can’t explain here how I encountered a ropes course, but I said no how, no way, not ever.

      The irony of it is I find life more challenging than any ropes course could ever be. But if I injure myself on that ropes course, (a definite possibility) I could carry that injury for life. No job anywhere is worth that.

    7. blackcat*

      As someone who loves climbing and ropes courses, I second the feigning medical issue to get out of the physical aspect of the training. If you do this, rather than sitting on the sidelines, try to cheer on your “teammates.” As far as enthusiasm goes: fake it until you make it.

      FYI: There are a host of completely minor injuries that could prevent someone from doing a ropes course, completely unrelated to weight/in-shape-ness. I have a very minor hip injury. Most of the time, I’m 100% fine. I have a pretty active life. But the last time I put on a rock climbing harness, my hip communicated very clearly to me: “If you pull on me with this harness, I will not let you walk tomorrow.” I went grumble grumble grumble, took it off, and sat down. No more climbing/ropes courses/etc for me, probably ever.

  23. Andraste*

    Hi all! I asked this question late in the comments last week and only got one response (which I’m thankful for!). I thought I’d post it farther up the thread this week to see if I could get some more input–please let me know if that’s frowned upon.

    On to my question! I graduated law school last summer and got a job in the public affairs department of the local affiliate of a national nonprofit. I didn’t take the bar. Turns out the affiliate has a lot of budget and management problems, and it hasn’t been a good fit. I’m quitting to take the bar this summer and explore other opportunities. To deal with the high turnover at the affiliate, we are requested to give 4 weeks notice. Because of said budget problems, I believe I will be cut as soon as I give notice. This is making me want to give the standard 2 weeks notice instead of the requested 4. It is probably selfish of me, but I’m about to be out of work for several months and the bar isn’t cheap, so I could really use that extra two weeks of pay. Any advice on the best course of action?

    1. Lulu*

      I’m confused. Are you talking about 2 weeks of extra unemployment you would get if you give 4 instead of 2 weeks notice?

      1. Andraste*

        Sorry! I think I will be asked to leave immediately instead of working through my 4 weeks notice period because of budget. So I guess I’m asking how terrible it would be if I gave 2 weeks notice instead of 4. just to be clear, let’s say I plan to leave by June 1. My employer requests 4 weeks notice, so early May I give notice. I am asked to quit immediately, which I think is likely. I I wait until mid May to give notice (standard 2 weeks), I’m still let go immediately but I got to work for two more weeks. I’m balancing company’s wishes vs. self-preservation and I’m not sure which choice is right.

        1. Lulu*

          Ok, that makes sense! In this case I think you’re fine with the 2 weeks notice. If they have a habit of cutting people right away, they pretty much forfeit their right to get extra notice. But I remember some unemployment consequence as well, as you might be able to claim unemployment benefits for the period between the date they let you go and the last day you stated in your notice.

          1. Treena Kravm*

            Yea, what I would do is check with your state ahead of time to be sure, but if that’s indeed the case, I would worry less because then you’re essentially getting a (partial) paycheck and have more time to study.

    2. YourCdnFriend*

      Treat the 4 weeks notice request for what it is: a request. You don’t have to fulfill a request. Give 2 weeks notice, be apologetic for not giving 4 and deal with the results. You need to put yourself first and your internal knowledge tells you that that means only 2 weeks. Trust your gut.

    3. kozinskey*

      As someone who’s still recovering from the debt I took on during bar study time, I definitely think 2 weeks notice is fair in this situation, with the foreknowledge that you might not get those last two weeks’ pay. 2 weeks is standard for most industries anyway. That being said, you might want to consider whether it’s going to negatively impact any reference you’d get from this company (and whether those references would even be relevant to the type of work you’re headed for next).

      Good luck!

    4. The IT Manager*

      I agree with other responses. Give only 2 weeks notice. They’ve demonstrated how they treat people who give notice so don’t offer any time beyond the professional standard.

    5. Treena Kravm*

      Definitely give 2 weeks, but in the meantime, start documenting what you do. They want the 4 weeks to make transition easier, so they’ll probably gripe less if the transition ends up going well.

    6. HumbleOnion*

      If they’re going to cut you right away, does it really matter how much notice you give?

  24. Sharon*

    What do you guys do, if anything, when a coworker comes to work without any makeup on? Do you say something about it?

    I’m not a Barbie Doll by any stretch, and wear only moderate makeup. But it always surprises me when coworkers who usually also wear makeup, show up at work without any. It seems somewhat unprofessional (we’re a professional, white collar office). I always want to ask if they forgot something, but I keep my mouth shut as if nothing was different.

    1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Why would there be anything to do? I can promise you that your coworker didn’t just forget it one day, and even if she had what would be the point of drawing attention to it? So she could go home and reapply? Goodness, don’t say anything. I like makeup and I wear it very frequently, but there’s nothing worse than hearing someone comment on it. Women can be just as professional with zero makeup as with a full face.

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      Makeup isn’t part of a business attire requirement; it isn’t part of a uniform. It’s a personal choice.

      I usually wear makeup to work, but sometimes my skin needs a break, or I didn’t have time that morning to apply it all, or I have a weird eye infection that precludes me from wearing makeup. It’s no one’s business. As long as I’m wearing work-appropriate clothing and I look otherwise put together, I don’t see the issue.

    3. Ruth (UK)*

      I have never worn make up in my life. I would honestly be quite offended if, in a work place situation, someone made a comment about my choices to do with cosmetics. I cant see how not wearing make up is unprofessional in any way. I can see how too much make up would be, but unless someone is actually unwashed or wearing dirty or inappropriate clothing etc, i think make up is a personal choice.

      2. Ruth (UK)*

        I’d like to amend slightly and add to my initial reply to this. To amend, I think I would actually be more taken aback than actually offended if someone questioned my choices with regards to make-up wearing.

        To add, I actually think it’s quite an odd thing to notice or think is a requirement for looking professional. I find that quite a lot of people I know or have come across (especially most men) never or rarely wear make up (to work or otherwise).

      3. Judy*

        I’m pretty sure my husband of 18 years can count on one hand the times he’s seen me with makeup on. My skin doesn’t like makeup, and my nails do not like nail polish. (I can’t even wear bangs because hair touching my face makes me crazy. I know I have touch sensory issues.)

        1. Beancounter in Texas*

          Me too! Before motherhood, I wore minimal makeup and tried to make it look natural, not obvious. I occasionally applied nail polish, but I haven’t done bangs since junior high. I cannot stand hair in my face. Post-motherhood, the most effort I can achieve before the baby starts crying in the morning is maybe some under-eye bag gel that makes me look a little less sleep deprived. Nail polish is now a luxury.

          I think makeup used to be considered part of “getting dressed,” as I have older family who would never dare step foot out of their house without makeup. But I also think there’s been some litigation or HR advice about not requiring makeup except when it is a part of the employee’s job is to look good/attractive, such as TV anchors or receptionists.

    4. Sans*

      I can’t imagine why it would occur to you that you should say something about it. Maybe they were running late. Maybe they wanted to try a different look. Maybe they just didn’t feel like dealing with it that morning. Why would any of that be your business?

      I used to wear makeup but I don’t anymore. No one has ever said anything. All my job interviews over the past 15 years have been without makeup. No problem. I take a shower every day and wear clean, matching clothes. That’s all that is required – not makeup.

    5. Celeste*

      I am drifting away from wearing makeup. Unless you work at a cosmetics counter or as a makeup artist, I can’t see any requirement to wear makeup to work.

      I hope you will not confront anyone over her personal choice.

    6. LittleMissCrankyPants*

      I’d have a hard time imagining when commenting on a co-worker’s appearance beyond “hey, you’ve got a tag hanging out, let me get it for you”, would ever be okay. You’re not models, right? It’s possible that others’ schedules get too smooshed in the AM to bother with something trivial like make-up, so I would say it’s not cool to comment on this at all. Would you say something similar to a man who didn’t shave or wash his hair often enough to suit your standards?

      If it’s a concern for your manager, then let him/her deal with it. It doesn’t appear to be a business/work concern for you.

      Also, not all of us are “guys’, just sayin’.

    7. manomanon*

      I would just say nothing. As someone who wears makeup on very rare occasions it drives me nuts when people comment on it if I do and I would assume the opposite must be true. Your coworker knows its out of the norm (for her not across the board) to not wear it that day but she has a reason that’s nobody’s business but hers.

    8. GOG11*

      There are a variety of reasons someone could be going without makeup, including health reasons. I think makeup is a personal choice and nobody’s business but the wearers, but if you feel tempted to comment, maybe it would help to imagine the reason why. I’d feel terrible if I said “Did you forget something?” if the person skipped makeup due to a painful eye infection or if they were going through a tough situation and didn’t want to wear makeup because it would announce to the world that she had been crying.

      I’m not saying someone should have to give you a reason. Rather, there are plenty of reasons you could probably identify with yourself for why someone isn’t wearing the makeup they usually do. Maybe thinking of those reasons would help you look at the behavior in a different light (instead of viewing it as unprofessional and, therefore, something the person shouldn’t do).

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yup. I actually don’t wear makeup often, but this past winter I couldn’t even wear it on the occasions I normally would; my skin got terribly dry, and it was 10x more obvious once I caked makeup on top of it. I looked much better without it on those days, believe me.

        To Sharon–don’t say or do anything, it’s a fashion choice, it’s not in the same realm as (say) forgetting to wear pants.

    9. C Average*

      It would literally never occur to me to say anything, or to see not wearing makeup as unprofessional. I don’t wear it myself, but many women in my office do. Keeping your mouth shut is a good strategy here.

    10. fposte*

      I realize that some of this is likely field and org culture, but if you tried to bring that up to somebody around here, they’d kick your made-up arse from here to kingdom come.

      And even if makeup is an org norm, unless somebody’s personal grooming practice interferes with your ability to complete your work, it ain’t your affair, and it’s rude to bring it up.

      1. Another Ellie*

        Seriously. The only time I ever come to work without makeup is if I’ve gotten almost no sleep the night before and chose to sleep the extra ten minutes rather than doing my normal makeup routine. If somebody pointed it out, they’d get the “tired me” response, which I normally repress. I don’t wear make-up for you, I wear make-up for me. If my sleep was more important to me that morning, f you.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        This. I wear a little make up once in a while. If you said anything to me, I would stare at you blankly and not say too much. But I would remember that you asked me that forever.

    11. CrazyCatLady*

      Nothing. If I didn’t wear makeup to work for a day, it would be my own personal decision and wouldn’t be because I forgot. It would be likely because I’m sick, my allergies are bothering me, I just didn’t have time for it, or I didn’t feel like it. If someone commented on it, I would be highly offended. (And people do comment on it with things like “you look tired!” or “are you sick?”

      It’s not unprofessional to not wear makeup. Makeup can sometimes make you look more polished, but it’s not a requirement.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        And people do comment on it with things like “you look tired!” or “are you sick?”

        I once read a book that suggested skipping makeup before playing hooky and taking a sick day, for this exact reason. Sadly.

          1. HeyNonnyNonny*

            It was something like ‘The Bad Girl’s Guide to Road Trips’ or something. My mom bought it for me, and it came with bumper stickers that said ‘Bad Girl.’ Clearly a reliable source!

        2. cuppa*

          I actually got sent home from work once because I skipped eye makeup and “looked sick”. Seriously.
          OP, as someone who has a complex about not wearing makeup due to people making comments when I don’t (from family, from co-workers, from managers), don’t. Seriously, just don’t.

      2. Anony-moose*

        There are about two people in my office who could ask me “Where’s your makeup?” that wouldn’t send me into a fit of rage. I wear makeup every day including black eyeliner. One time I skipped it (just too damn tired to care) and my boss noticed. Her remark was “you ok? too stressed? need to talk?”

        That was ok with me. I was just surprised she noticed. Anyone else asking me would cross a line.

        Honestly I don’t think I’d notice if a coworker didn’t wear makeup!

    13. IndieGir*

      What? You don’t have to wear makeup to look professional. I never wear makeup; I’m allergic to everything and can only wear lipstick. When I wear that, it rubs off and I can’t be bothered to re-apply.

      Also, I can’t fathom even noticing that my co-workers were or weren’t wearing make-up, unless they went from Tammy Faye levels to no make up at all. Maybe you need a new hobby . . .

    14. Relly*

      I work in an office and I never wear makeup. That doesn’t suddenly make me less professional than my coworkers who do.

      The best thing to do is not to mention it, because it’s none of your business why people choose to wear or not wear makeup.

    15. Beebs*

      Some days I wear “a lot” of makeup (blush, eye shadow, eye liner, mascara, blending powder), some days I just put on some blush, and others I am just a fresh clean moisturized face. Even the best quality makeup can irritate your skin. Everyone is different and when I wear makeup it is because I enjoy it. Not sure how you are connecting this to professionalism.

      1. Sunflower*

        Ugh seriously the worst part of makeup is taking it off and that’s why I rarely wear it to work. I don’t wear a lot- usually just mascara and eyeliner but I can never seem to get all of it off from under my eyes!!!

    16. kozinskey*

      I’ve forgotten to put on makeup before. It’s just not my first priority. Even so, I’d be really annoyed if someone pointed it out to me. It’s a personal decision and if I wanted to, I could just stop wearing it altogether and it wouldn’t be anyone’s business but my own.

    17. Tinker*

      Most of my coworkers routinely come to work without any makeup on. Or at least not any that I notice. Why would I think to do or say anything about this?

      1. Tinker*

        Just to add onto this — if I do entertain the thought of pulling aside one of my non-makeup-wearing coworkers and saying “Hey, Mike, I notice you’re not wearing makeup. Don’t you think that’s unprofessional?” I don’t see any great benefit in any of the results of that conversation, such that I could imagine feeling compelled to say it.

        So, what is it that you’d hope to gain by doing anything?

        1. Us, Too*

          Exactly. I make it a practice simply to ignore someone’s appearance and focus on my work as much as possible. I have seen some pretty “different” things worn to work if you use “average” as your baseline and somehow the earth still rotates and we all still did our work.

          I can’t imagine thinking “wow, Mike wore eyeliner today and his productivity is no doubt higher!” Huh?!?!

          1. Windchime*

            Surely I’m not the only one thinking that I would *love* it if Mike would wear eyeliner to work. I’m a sucker for a guy in eyeliner; especially if his name is Billy Joe Armstrong.

    18. Treena Kravm*

      I’ve never worn make-up to work, and like others above, would think very little of anyone who said anything to me about it.

      I do understand being startled by the difference in appearance. As an intern, my supervisor always was very made-up, and on days she was sick, she wouldn’t wear make-up and she did look very different. But I never thought along the lines of her “forgetting” something. She clearly chose not to put it on, whether it was an allergy attack bothering her eyes or she was rushing in the morning.

    19. Not Today Satan*

      If a coworker asked me if I “forgot” something a day that I chose not to wear makeup I would lose a huge amount of respect for that person. I would also probably be tempted to take off my earrings and instruct others around me to hold me back.

      1. OriginalEmma*

        The only “makeup” you’d apply at that point would be the vaseline that protects your face from glancing blows!

    20. AndersonDarling*

      If I wore make-up people would ask if I was going on a date. I used to do the whole nine yards every day. Then my make-up routine shrank down to lipstick, then nothing. If I am giving a presentation I’ll wear a bit of make-up, but that is my limit.

      1. Sunflower*

        Yeah I never wear makeup to work. I had to get my passport pictures taken a while ago so I wore it and my bosses asked me if I had a job interview that day. So now that I am interviewing, I know to only put it on right before the interview!

    21. August*

      I never wear make up to work. I don’t know what to say to OP and surprised that some people can think that it is unprofessional.

    22. Amethyst*

      Please do not say anything. I wear makeup when I feel like it. I don’t when I don’t want anything on my face. It’s not any different than choosing not to wear a necklace that day. Wearing makeup is not a professional requirement.

      It would lower my opinion a lot of a person if they mentioned this to me. I only want to hear about my makeup if I’ve smeared my eyeliner/mascara.

    23. Christian Troy*

      I wear what I consider a decent amount of make up to work because it’s how I feel comfortable presenting myself to the world. I don’t mean Miss America layers, but I picked up enough tricks from friends in broadcasting and professional cheerleaders that I like to look awake and refreshed. It looks pretty obvious to me when I don’t wear it and I if I showed up to work without it, it looks like I’m sloppy or sick or not 100% that day.

      So I don’t know what the answer to this is. It isn’t anyone’s business if I don’t wear make up, but if I showed up one day without people will and have commented that I look sick or had a rough night or something.

      1. Observer*

        I get that. But, snarky comments about “did you forget something” are a whole different level. Also, what you describe is not about being professional but a change in appearance that does make you look like you may not be feeling well.

    24. Sparrow*

      To specifically answer your question – no, don’t say anything to your coworker.

      I am like your coworker. The majority of the time, I wear makeup and “dress up”. Our office is jeans and t-shirts casual, but I prefer to dress up a little more than that. Then there are times when I go through periods of depression. Doing my hair and makeup and dressing in nice clothes just isn’t a priority during those times.

      There could be a number of reasons she’s not wearing makeup. As long as it’s not affecting the job, I wouldn’t say anything. I would be quite embarassed if one of my coworkers commented on my appearance. I don’t want to explain to them the details of my emotional state.

    25. Samantha*

      Also never wear makeup. Personal choice. I would be highly offended if this was mentioned to me.

    26. Mockingjay*

      Recently I have developed allergies to several makeup chemicals and hair dye. I went white in my 30s, so I colored it for years. As a result, I can no longer dye my hair without risking anaphylaxis. So, I am going platinum and wearing much less cosmetics these days.

      What does this have to do with my job? Absolutely nothing. I follow the dress code, my hair is clean and trimmed, and my face is washed. I still consider myself “professional” in appearance, even without a coat of L’Oreal.

    28. Elizabeth West*

      Nope. Doesn’t matter.

      For me, I wouldn’t go out of the house without at least concealer and mascara (and a touch of lipstick) because if I don’t wear it, IMO I look like hell. If I didn’t wear any for some reason and someone said something, I’d think they were thinking I looked like hell. So don’t say anything!

      As for my coworkers, I never notice if they aren’t wearing makeup, but I do notice if they are wearing a cute shirt or did something cool with their hair.

    29. Chloe Silverado*

      I completely understand that there’s a (possibly glaring) difference from their usual appearance, but I would assume there’s a reason they didn’t wear makeup and move on. I say this as someone who wears a pretty full face of makeup every day – if for some reason I skip the eyeliner or blush, it’s not because I forgot, it’s because I was running late or just wanted a break. Someone saying something is only going to make me feel bad about my appearance. Unless your job is very, very appearance based, there’s absolutely no reason to say anything.

    30. iamanengineer*

      I guess I’m piling on here. I worked in an environment where no makeup or nail polish was allowed on the production floor. People with desk jobs who never went into the area could wear makeup but since I sometimes had to go in it was easier not to wear anything (or wash it off before heading in). Some jobs were full time production so there were people who never wore eye shadow or lipstick (or chopstick) at work. It was always a contrast to see them dressed up with hair and makeup at company parties.

    31. jillociraptor*

      Hmm. Out of curiosity, what would you want to say, and what would be the outcome you’re hoping for?

      1. Anonsie*

        Yeah, I’m not sure what the intended point of talking about it is. Are you worried about them since they usually wear makeup, and changes in grooming can be a sign of something bad happening around a person? Because that’s a bit of a leap unless you know full well this is someone who would typically not be caught dead in public without a full face, and even then it’s awfully personal for the workplace.

        1. Myrin*

          I find this “can be a sign of something bad happening around a person” thing especially interesting because of how it’s exactly the opposite of my own situation. I was bullied as a young teenager because of how “ugly” I was (in hindsight, I looked pretty normal for a child that age) and thus practically needed makeup to make me feel better (where I’d liked myself just well enough before that). When I got older, I started to use less makeup and now I’m down to mascara and eyeshadow (which is black on the outer corners of my eyes, so it might seem to outsiders like I use a lot when that isn’t actually the case; but I also do it for fun now). And it’s been only a few months ago where I felt comfortable enough again in my own skin to go grocery shopping without makeup on. And as recently as three weeks ago I went to uni without makeup for the first time, even if it was just to check stuff in the library. Granted, I don’t think I’d go to actual classes without makeup because I like my made up look, but for me, being out without makeup actually shows how I finally got more comfortable with my natural appearance and how I feel better about myself, not worse. So someone making some ill-advised comment about my makeup-less face wouldn’t have been well received at all.

          1. Anonsie*

            That’s why it’s way too personal to get into with someone you’re not very close with, I think. Because for some people it’s a fun hobby that they like and is just part of their regular grooming, so if they suddenly stopped doing it that would indeed be a sign of something strange. And then for some people, it’s as you say. Not something you’re like to know about someone you work with.

    32. Sadsack*

      What do I say about other women’s makeup choices, or clothing for that matter? NOTHING. Do you think that your coworkers need for you to remind them that they don’t have on any makeup? Or do you just want to be able to tell someone when you disapprove of her appearance? Whether it is by their choice or they simply forget, it isn’t your place to monitor them. You’d be a real ass to say anything about it.

    33. Blue_eyes*

      The men in your office wear makeup?! Oh, they don’t? Do you ask them why they’re not wearing makeup? Then it’s not appropriate to ask your female colleagues either. If men can be professional without makeup, so can women.

      (Just to be clear, I have no problem with men who want to wear make up to work or otherwise, but I wanted to call out the inherent sexism in this question.)

      1. Andraste*

        Thank you for this comment!

        I typically wear makeup to work. I haven’t worn any for the last three days because I had a dental procedure this week that has made the left side of my face very sore. Until I feel better I’m not going to wear makeup, and that’s a discussion I don’t need to get into with coworkers.

        Generally it’s a good rule of thumb just to not comment on other peoples’ bodies at work. Period.

      2. Ruth (UK)*

        Since she only says ‘coworkers’ in her initial post, and makes no mention of gender, I am actually prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe that she’s judging men equally harshly for not putting on their make-up in the morning.

        Well no, I don’t really believe she’s doing that. However, if she was, at least we wouldn’t have a gender double standard going on. . . I actually would find it less problematic if someone was unhappy with lack of make-up at work for people of any gender.

    34. Observer*

      I don’t want to pile on here – I agree with pretty much everyting that has been said. But, there are two things that I really had to comment on.

      Others have already commented on this, but I think it’s something you really should think about. What on earth do you think you would accomplish by saying anything? And why do you even care? You are not describing people who are dressing, much less behaving, unkempt and sloppy. So why do you want to even respond?

      Secondly, I was struck by the snarky nature of your mental response. I just can’t understand what that’s all about.

    36. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

      I think everyone’s piled on to you a bit, so I want to give you some advice that’s served me really well: only make a comment on someone’s appearance/something being out of place if it would take them five minutes or less to fix.

      Spinach in their teeth? Lipstick smeared on their chin? Toilet paper stuck to the bottom of their foot? Yes, absolutely tell them.

      The colour of their shirt doesn’t suit them? They’re overweight? Don’t say anything. They can’t fix it; all you’re going to do is make them self-conscious. (It’s the same logic behind addressing dress code issues at the end of the day, so people can leave straightaway.)

      Putting on makeup would take longer than five minutes to fix, and it’s incredibly unlikely someone would have brought their makeup to work anyway. So don’t say anything.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Also lipstick on your teeth or having your cardigan on inside out is almost definitely unintentional and undesired, whereas your coworkers know whether they are wearing makeup on any given day and it’s a valid choice either way.

    37. pony tailed wonder*

      Sorry to add to the pile on here but someone once said something like that to someone in my book club and fifteen years later, it still comes up occasionally in conversations (and not in a nice way).

      1. Not So NewReader*

        You made me think– I got out of high school and the pressure to wear make up was over. I savor that to this day. Someone asking about that, looks odd to me, at best.

  25. Treena Kravm*

    Intern problems!

    Any experience or advice for communicating with interns? My manager, co-worker, and I all say things very clearly, and it still doesn’t seem to be heard or understood.

    When they started, they gave us their availability, and they’re only available for 10-12 of the business hours in the week. All three of us clearly said multiple times, “Because you’re not available during these hours, you won’t really be able to do X part of the internship (X being the part most interns want to do as it’s our main job).” and “It’s your responsibility to look on our calendar and ask if you want to shadow or come with us to events when you are available.”

    So this is the halfway point in their internship, and they both have less than 1/3 of their hours. The come to me at their check-in meeting and say their advisor reamed them out about hours, but they do not have any hours because they have “nothing to do.” and that they’re not doing the X part of the internship, which is a requirement. I remind them of everything above, and remind them that it took them 4 weeks to finish the 10-15 hours of mandated training webinars (that they must complete prior to being assigned any tasks) because they were “busy.”

    Am I being crazy here or somehow unclear? Or are these two just lazy college students who are in a required internship class??

    1. the_scientist*

      I don’t understand why your company hired interns knowing that they weren’t going to be able to put in enough hours/be available at the right time to be involved in the core work. I think that’s on you and your company, not on the interns. It seems like they were up-front with you about their restrictions.

      The part about them taking 4 weeks to finish 10-15 hours worth of mandatory training does seem unreasonable/lazy, but maybe it’s not. Were they given time to do these training webinars during the workday? Or was the expectation that they do them on their own time? If they were supposed to get these done on their own time, was that expectation clearly stated? Did you give them a deadline for when their training needed to be completed? If these are paid interns, was it made clear that they should track their hours so they could be paid for completing mandatory training? Were they “busy” with school/paid employment or were they “busy” with other internship tasks?

      Did these student come to you independently, or was the internship arranged by a school? If it was arranged by their school, did the school make it clear to you that X core work was an internship requirement? If they did, did you or your company explain that X can only be worked on at certain times and interns need to be available during these times? If the school knew about these restrictions, why would they send students knowing they wouldn’t be able to complete the core work? If you/your company knew that X was a requirement, why would you hire interns knowing they couldn’t complete the requirement?

      All in all, this sounds like a massive communication failure on all sides.

      1. Treena Kravm*

        Well I don’t hire them, my manager does. And what she’s done is explain to them what the internship looks like, and she’s admitted that she’s relied on them to self-select out if the schedule doesn’t work for them. She interviews them before they know their class schedule, so it’s tough on both sides. They told me and my co-workers their schedules the first week of their internship, which was 3 months after they were officially “hired.” We normally don’t ask because we don’t need to know until January, and it’s never been a problem because all interns have understood, if you want to do X, you have to be available during these hours (it’s related to the school day, so it’s really, incredibly obvious).

        The webinars they are allowed to do anytime they want, from home or the office, and those hours are part of their internship hours. I didn’t give a specific deadline, but they were clearly told multiple times that they could not do X, Y, or Z (anything) until they’ve done them. They even asked to do Y + Z and we said no because your webinars aren’t completed. They’re busy with work and school, yes, but they also committed 20 hours/week to this internship, and they’ve done an average of 8 hours per week so far. There’s really no excuse, especially when they share about how they went hiking and had a margarita night with their roommates.

        It’s arranged by the school, and it’s a requirement for their degree. We’ve never gotten really specific because like I mentioned above, X is so obviously able to be done during certain hours, that it’s never needed specific communication before. And just to be clear, we don’t *need* the interns to do X. This is something they (should) want experience in because that’s what their degree is all about. X is my job and I do it all and don’t need support, but if there are interns, they can shadow me doing X and then do a small piece of X on their own towards the end of the semester, as part of the learning experience. It doesn’t matter to me if it’s not their priority to do it, and we don’t insist that they do it.

        1. the_scientist*

          So, what jumped out at me here is that you initially said that the internship is 10-12 hours per week in your first post, but in your reply you say that they’ve committed 20 hours per week. So…..which is it? 10-12 is pretty different from 20 hours, and IMO 20 hours per week is A LOT of time for an internship when also juggling a full courseload and other extracurriculars. 20 hours per week strikes me as quite a lot for an unpaid internship as well, but I’m admittedly biased against unpaid internships as a rule. Given that you haven’t been clear in your responses about the actual number of hours required by the interns, I think it’s possible that the actual time requirements were not made clear to them in the hiring process. It’s very possible that the interns were told 10-12 hours and simply don’t have time for 20 hours per week but aren’t willing/are too scared to speak up.

          Further, you said that they were hired before they knew their class schedule, which makes no sense to me if the internship has particular parts that are only do-able at certain times. I took a very specific program in my undergrad, and there was only one of each of my required courses available- meaning that if there was a “scheduling conflict” I couldn’t just drop a class and pick up another one at a more convenient time. Students are first and foremost students, so it makes sense that their classes take priority over an internship, even if the internship is a degree requirement. If it’s something they “should want to do”, well…maybe they do want to do it but can’t because of their class schedules. IMO, your manager’s first mistake was hiring students before their schedules were set and having a setup where students are required to be in at very specific times. The interns may genuinely have limited flexibility, and given that they are presumably taking classes, I think the onus is on the employer to be a little flexible to account for this, or to not hire interns that don’t have the required flexibility.

          Finally, the school apparently thinks X thing is a requirement….or did you just mean that the internship as a whole is a requirement? If the school didn’t make it clear to you that the students needed to be spending hours doing X, that’s the school’s poor communication. If they did, well….again, you shouldn’t have hired students who you knew at the outset couldn’t meet the requirement.

          I get some of your frustration as I’ve supervised co-op and work study students before and I have gotten frustrated with them for not doing what I thought should be obvious. In general, having written processes and lots of documentation and breaking things down into very specific steps is really critical to student success. You mention below being hesitant to impose artificial deadlines but keep in mind that these guys are still students- they are used to everything they do having a deadline attached. Internships are about learning how the work world works, to a large extent, but you do need to do a bit of hand-holding, initially. FWIW, we gave our student workers a TON of flexibility because we knew they had full course loads- they knew we kept 9-5 hours and that they were responsible for 10-12 hours a week of work but we let them set their schedules around their classes and take work home whenever possible.

          1. Treena Kravm*

            No, they’re availability limits them to only 10-12 hours during business hours. The university requires a 20 hour internship to graduate, they know it’s 20 hours. That’s not the issue. We’re a non-profit and as I’ve said below, this is a favor to the university because they have a huge need for internships and not enough placements for their students.

            This internship is a 6 credit class that they will fail if they don’t perform well in. So to say that they should make their other classes a priority doesn’t make sense, because this is an academic requirement. The university requires them to seek their placements when they do because of the shortage, so we have no control over that either. This has never been a problem in the past because students typically understand that if they have an internship, they need to have a couple of chunks of time free. Typically, they will schedule all their classes on either a M/W or a T/Th and have 3 full days available during business hours.

            X is the thing that is most related to their major, so the idea behind any internship is not just silly tasks that don’t teach them their field. They can still do other projects that are tangentially related to their field, but X is actually doing the work out in the field. X according to the school’s definition is a wide range of activities, but our org only does a tiny niche of X, and it requires a lot of knowledge and presentation skills. We understand that interns might genuinely not want to do our niche version of X and we don’t force them to actually do it on their own at the end of the semester unless they want to. Honestly, I think that the lack of X is a side note to them not having hours, which is the real problem.

            2. the_scientist*

              Ah, okay, this is helpful. Especially good to know that this internship is a part of their course load (i.e. not in addition to a full course load); that makes 20 hours per week more reasonable.

              In that case, you may just have gotten a couple of duds this year. I was wanting to explore all other angles first, because what are the odds of hiring 2 dud interns in one year when it’s a competitive position and past internships have gone smoothly? But maybe it was a weak crop of students or you just had bad luck this time around.

              It does sound like your org is maybe not set up to support interns well, generally, and I agree with fposte that the flexibility is ultimately causing more harm than good.

              1. Treena Kravm*

                Yea, unfortunately, I think the duds are because of my manager this time. I’m 99% sure she hired the wrong “Jane” because our Jane said that she never had an interview, or phone conversation, and my manager is sure that she did. So my guess is she interviewed and like Jane K and accidentally hired Jane L. And the other one, I don’t know. But Playboy consistently ranks this as one of the top 10 party schools in the country, so I think no matter what we do, they’re going to basically suck. Past interns were more tolerable, but I wouldn’t even classify them as “good.”

                1. fposte*

                  Well, Playboy hasn’t done a party school list in years, urban legend to the contrary; however, my institution appears in the top ten of the Princeton Review’s party school list on the regular and it still would be pretty easy for me to find two decent interns here. So I’m not sure it’s the school.

            3. AdAgencyChick*

              It sounds like your org needs to provide feedback to whomever is the point person at the school (the career services office?): this is happening, we are unable to waive our restrictions on X, Y, and Z, and please make sure that any students who apply in the future are fully aware of the requirements.

              What to do with the current students is a harder question, and one I don’t have a lot of advice for, unfortunately!

      2. Christian Troy*

        I agree with all of this. This whole situation sounds pretty confusing and unstructured to me. It seems like to me, your company takes a really hands off approach and it’s so hands off you have interns that don’t meet the core availability and took four weeks to complete training.

        To me, this is less of a communication issue and more about setting clear expectations and structure for the rest of the process. They should have a schedule of when they’re coming in the office and when they’re leaving along with clear weekly goals and objectives of what to accomplish when they’re there. I don’t think this is a hopeless situation, but someone needs to take reigns and get a spreadsheet going with weekly tasks and goals.

        1. Treena Kravm*

          The problem is that I don’t usually work out of our office, so they aren’t required to either. They are allowed to make their own schedules, just as I do. We are together at events, and during our weekly check-ins. Because we don’t actually need them to do any of the work they’re doing, we rarely need Task A to be done at the end of the week, so why should I create an artificial deadline? They send a weekly log of their hours and what they complete, so that’s how we track what they do.

          1. fposte*

            I think this may be a situation where what feels like helpful flexibility is actually hurting them because it’s too much for them to handle. They’re not like you, so what you do isn’t necessarily going to work as a model.

            I’d have prescribed hours for them and say some changes may be possible with approval.

            1. Treena Kravm*

              And then that’s what I can’t really do, even though I’d like to. Our “office” is a tiny room that barely fits the 4 chairs we need to have a meeting, and only 2 computers. So if an intern is in there, my co-worker and I can’t use our computers, have a private meeting, or do anything. So while giving them structure, we’d also be kicking ourselves out of the office.

              I think the problem is that my manager frames the flexibility as a helpful thing to them, because she doesn’t want to focus on the fact that we can’t function as a normal office because our org is so incredibly dysfunctional.

              We built our building for ourselves 4 years ago and they neglected to include an office big enough for our dept, a private office for our director, a break room for the shift-work staff, and an appropriate changing room so the shift staff can change into their work clothes. So we’re left with a tiny box that has 2 workstations and sometimes, while we’re sitting at our desks, someone will walk in, close the door and start stripping before they realize we’re in there =/

    2. fposte*

      Yeah, they don’t sound great there, that’s for sure, and they may flunk their internship if they’re not careful. But their schedule means that they’re not going to get credit for this internship, because they’re not going to be able to do X? That sounds like it would have been a reason to bail right up front for their own good–“Oh, if that’s what’s required, that’s not going to happen with this schedule; it looks like you might be better off finding an internship someplace else.”

      It also sounds like you may not have much of an underlying structure for the internships–was there any actual hiring practice or do you guys just take who comes? It might also be helpful to have a guidelines packet for candidates that makes it clear successful completion of the internship requires certain hours of availability and that additional opportunities are dependent on the intern’s initiative and willingness to request inclusion.

      1. Treena Kravm*

        This is a competitive position, usually 8-10 candidates for 2 slots. I think documentation is what my manager needs to start doing, because she does all of that verbally, and it sounds like these two just nodded their way through without really listening. I think the problem is that despite literally saying “you need to take initiative on this” over 50 times since they’ve started, they just don’t. I’m not sure why–one is sort of shy, but very articulate.

        I just think they might just have poor organization skills in general because we’ll discuss a project, and then 2 weeks later, they’ll ask questions about it that I though were already answered. It’s really hard to tell if they’re just pretending to have questions to cover up not doing anything for 2 weeks, if they forgot about it and lost the notes I watched them take, or if they don’t feel comfortable asking questions to clarify in the moment or later when they crop up. It’s boggling my mind.

        1. AVP*

          This is something that, IME, happens a lot with interns. Young people in general are not great at hearing things they don’t want to hear and applying it to their decision making, if it goes against what they want to do.

          A few months ago I hired this intern, recommended by a friend of a friend, and gave her my usual spiel about what the internship would be like. I do this a lot; people generally get it. She asked if she could shadow our editor at all and I said “yes, eventually for a few days, but thats not the bulk of this internship.” She quit on the first day because she had convinced herself that the entire internship would just be shadowing and no actual work, and “this position just isn’t creative enough for me.”

          On the absolute other hand, these are interns. You can’t just assign a project and ask for it two weeks later. They are learning how to work, and what organizational skills are in the context of a work setting. You need to really proactively follow up with them every day or every time you see them to see what they’re up to and how it’s going and if they have questions. Having interns is more work than doing the project yourself, fyi, in many cases.

          1. Treena Kravm*

            “This is something that, IME, happens a lot with interns. Young people in general are not great at hearing things they don’t want to hear and applying it to their decision making, if it goes against what they want to do.”
            This really is the crux of the problem I think.

            When we assign a project, we do into depth about everything we want in terms of specifics, and tell them where they have to do A, B, C, and tell them the places they have creativity and room to play with how they want it. Every check-in meeting, we go over how the projects are going, and half of the time, it’s “I didn’t have time yet” and a quarter is “I couldn’t do it because…” and the other quarter is they actually did it.

            1. you must be hovering over yourself watching us drip on each other's sides*

              “This is something that, IME, happens a lot with interns. Young people in general are not great at hearing things they don’t want to hear and applying it to their decision making, if it goes against what they want to do.”

              I think that’s a bit harsh, plus it’s true of great numbers of people, not just interns.

              I work with Interns a lot, and they often surprise me because something I – with my decades in the industry – think is pure common sense, has never occurred to them.

              I confess that I’m not sure I completely grasp the situation, but if I were you, I think I would put these people on a “PIP” – okay, not really a PIP, but I’d sit down with each one of them and a calendar and map out, hour by hour, exactly how they’re going to spend their hours for the next N weeks of their internship.

              1. Treena Kravm*

                I would love to do that, but the number of hours something takes is so variable, I couldn’t begin to guess it.

                1. you must be hovering over yourself watching us drip on each other's sides*

                  Could you at least map out the available work hours for each intern over the next months? It sounds like they hadn’t even signed up for classes when they agreed to the internship?

                  I dunno if it would really help, but the idea is to have it down in black and white just what hours are open, and how many there are. And maybe that could help everyone in scheduling to get the required tasks done?

                  Sorry I’m not much help – it sounds like a tough situation. I wish you the best on pulling it together.

    3. Elsajeni*

      If this is a required internship class, was it arranged through their school? Do you/your company have a contact at the school you could reach out to? It sounds like your company’s goals with this internship weren’t really lined up with the school’s goals, if you didn’t even known until just now what the requirements were. My only experience with a school-related internship was student teaching, so it may not be exactly the same, but that was arranged with a lot of contact between my advisors and the teacher whose classroom I was placed in; if there had been any concern about whether I’d be able to complete my program requirements in that particular classroom, my advisors would have known about it from the start and either not placed me there in the first place or actively stepped in to make sure I’d get a chance to complete that requirement. I wonder if part of the problem with your interns is that they’re expecting something more like that — if they have some impression that you and their advisor were in touch at the start of this process, and that someone would have stopped them from being placed in this internship if it was going to be impossible for them to do X part.

      Given that they say their advisor reamed them out, I’m guessing there’s not going to be a problem with the school blaming your company for a failed internship. But you still might want to reach out to your contact at the school, if you have one, to let them know, “Hey, we just learned from these interns that X is a requirement of their internship. Because they’re not available during the hours that we do X, they haven’t been able to do that here, and they won’t be able to unless they can change their schedules to be here at [whatever time]. If it’s going to be impossible for them to earn credit for this internship, what should we do?”

      1. Treena Kravm*

        We do have a contact, which is why they were reamed out. Because after several weeks of us clearly outlining everything, they just literally weren’t doing anything. Last week, one timesheet was 6 hours of an event they came to, and no other work. So my manager called their advisor and clarified it’s not because we don’t give them the work, they’re just not doing it.

        The real problem is that their major/our organization is in a very tiny field, and there are hundreds of them every semester that needs an internship in this tiny field, so we take on 2 to support the university. We don’t need them at all, but are education-based, so it’s part of our mission to do this. It’s worked in the past because interns will do side projects that we only would do if we have a load of time on our hands, so they normally contribute *something* just nothing vital.

    4. jade*

      are these interns you hired independently, or part of a program you regularly take part in? if the former, then i’d probably treat it like any other work situation of underperformers. if the latter, then i’d have a conversation with the prof/advisor on how they’d like to handle it. is their laziness affecting your work? or is this more about meeting the requirements of their program?

      it’s always tough with unpaid interns. i always made sure that mine knew that their classes/academic requirements came first. but we always got overachievers. :)

      good luck.

    5. BRR*

      I would ask them to repeat it back to me. Something like, “Can you repeat back to me what I said? I want to make sure I didn’t miss anything.”

    6. Intern Wrangler*

      I feel your pain. Over my years of supervising interns, this has become more and more of a problem. We work with a lot of graduate interns in a non profit setting. We have developed clear expectations. We ask them to sign learning agreements. And we still run into problems with them not being able to meet the expected hours. Hours that were set by their school. I know when I did my internship, I worked full time and commuted an hour each way to my internship site. The only class I took was the field placement seminar. I wish schools would limit the number of classes that students can take during their internship.
      I cannot tell you how many times in the past year that students have come to me in a panic about not getting their hours. And we have availability seven days a week, evenings and weekends. So no, you are not crazy.
      We have had some success in following up with the individual schools when we have had problems. I would recommend that you keep clear lines of communication with the field instructors.

    1. CA Admin*

      I hope she wins. I’m in the SF Bay Area and completely believe her claims–VC has a nasty reputation for sexism and for every 1 lawsuit you see, there are hundreds more stories out there about equally bad behavior.

    2. Andraste*

      I find her description of the events entirely believable, and from that I think the suit is justified. Good luck to her!

  27. Bekx*

    Just want to thank Alison and all the commenters here. I’ve been reading this blog for almost 3 years now. It helped me get my first job which was absolutely horrible and toxic (I used to go by Becca until a few other people started popping up with that name…not sure if anyone remembers me though). Now I have great-awesome-fantastic job and we just got our performance reviews.

    Guys. My boss told me how amazing I’ve been doing and how if I can keep it up I can go anywhere with my career (I’m 25). I got a 10% bonus, a raise, and the owner of the company gave me extra bonus money because I helped him on a project.

    Going from being told you’re worthless and feeling like you’re the worst teapot designer ever to going to a wonderful supportive environment where you’re told you’re an asset is a dream.

    Thank you Alison for this blog, and for everyone who comments. I read this religiously every day and I have grown more in these 3 years reading your blog than from anything.

    1. Partly Cloudy*

      That’s awesome! Good for you. I’m new here, but this is certainly incentive to stick around. ;)

  28. Ruth (UK)*

    CV vs resume…
    Ok so I was reading the comments on an older thread here where it was mentioned by people that they dislike cv and resume being used wrongly etc.. Honestly I have never heard resume used in the UK by anyone other than my American mother and all jobs here will ask for a cv.. I have always considered resume to be an Americanism.

    I noticed I recently commented and used the terms interchangeably ie. ‘blahblah my cv blahblah your resume’ as I consider them to be the same thing but one to be an American term. This is because I call it a cv but I’m replying to someone who talked about their resume and end up mixing terms…

    I tried googling it and found some sources (American sites) claiming a cv is a longer and different thing and other sites saying cv is only the all encompassing term if you’re in the UK..

    So when I say cv, are there American readers reckoning I’m just confused… Honestly I don’t think anyone here would say resume.

    1. Treena Kravm*

      In the US, a resume is what you would use for a job in the public/private sector. A CV is what you would use for the academic sector. In the UK, you use the term “CV” to mean the equivalent of an American resume.

      When you’re commenting here, people know you mean resume because you’re Ruth (UK). If you were just Ruth, you’d confuse folks.

    2. Jen*

      In my experience in the UK, CV is the default when referring to a work history document, and resume is considered an Americanism.

      Whereas in my experience in Canada (which is basically the same as the US as far as this kind of language), a resume is the default, and a CV is the longer, academic version (only used by those who’re going for professorships and the like).

    3. CAA*

      When I see “CV” used by someone whose username indicates she’s in the UK, I assume she’s using the UK definition of the word and mentally translate that to “resume”.

      If someone in the U.S. uses “CV”, I assume she means the document that academics use, which is longer and has a different format than a typical professional resume.

      2. Sunflower*

        Yes exactly. CV’s are really used for academia and can go on for pages and pages and tend to include everything. Resumes are used pretty much everywhere else and are much more concise, usually only a page.

  29. Lucy*

    I just started my job 2 months ago and I’m already having serious doubts about it….in the 8 weeks I’ve been here, 8 people (including 2 of the managers who interviewed me, out of an office of ~45) have put in their notice! On the surface it seems amicable and I shouldn’t be worried (and my bf tells me I’m being crazy), but I was talking to some people and they all admitted they were looking because the company has changed “a lot” in the past year.

    I’m trying to take AAM’s advice and stick it out for at least a few more months, but this news on top of me not being crazy for the job has seriously colored my view of it – my boss won’t delegate so a lot of the time I’m just sitting here twiddling my thumbs, the office culture itself is very quiet and solitary, plus the commute is about twice as long as I thought it would be (my interviews never took place during rush hour….). It’s not a “toxic” workplace, but I don’t feel like it’s going to help my career in the long run, you know?

    We actually relocated for this job (no assistance or contract/obligations, we were just desperate to be in this city) so I’m not making any rash decisions, but I’m a little disheartened that what I thought was going to be a good career move isn’t turning out to be and it’s back to the job search grind again….

    1. GOG11*

      Your coworkers are leaving because the company has changed a lot from a time when you didn’t know what the company was like. I would only worry about this if their leaving affects you/your position negatively.

      As far as it not living up to what you hoped it would do for your career, I’d seriously weigh that against what leaving so soon would do. Unless you have lengthy stays at other jobs, it might not be a good idea to leave so soon (and in most cases, you can’t do it too frequently, either).

      Ultimately, you have to weigh whether your next job would be a better fit overall than this one – you could leave and find yourself in the same situation again.

      1. GOG11*

        I meant to add that, if the current benefits/culture/whathaveyou is fine with you, don’t worry about the change from what was. As long as what is works for you, it doesn’t matter that it used to be better (or that only Better Circumstances are up to par for your colleagues).

      2. NacSacJack*

        +1 The job you accepted at the company you now work may work for you. Or it may be the company culture fits you for where you are at in life right now. Companies go through culture changes all the time. It took me a while to realize our new employees are happier because they don’t know what it was like before the change. Also, consider this, the economy has really *AND I MEAN REALLY* picked up in the last few months. You may be seeing delayed, but normal, transistions that all waited for a better economy.

      3. Lucy*

        Those are all really good points – like I said, not a “toxic” environment, I’m mostly just bored and hate the commute (which were not problems I anticipated during the interview). I’m sad to see these people go, but I think it’s because I’m still new and they’re some of the few people I know!

        My work history is pretty steady (1.5 year contract, then 3 years at Job 1 and 2.5 years at Job 2) so I’m not worried about using a “freebie” (as AAM calls it) – the timing would also allow me to drop it from my resume completely, since I could chalk up a gap to the fact that we had relocated and just not mention I was employed at a job that didn’t work out….but we’ll see! For now just keeping my ear to the ground and seeing how the situation falls….

    2. cuppa*

      I would wait it out a little longer. People can fly the coop for a lot of reasons, and just because things have changed for them doesn’t mean that tings will be bad for you. It’s something to keep an eye on, but not necessarily a reason to bail just yet.

      1. Wolfey*

        I just gave notice after a year at a job where people have been leaving right and left. We’ve probably had 90% of the staff and 10-20% of the attorneys leave since I started. Granted I am a sample size of one, but my experience here was that even if things seemed ok for you in the beginning, the not-so-great stuff was coming just by virtue of everyone else who dealt with it being gone.

        I’m not saying jump ship immediately, but trust your reactions and instincts as you notice things and maybe keep an eye on the job market?

        1. cuppa*

          I think in your situation, that’s totally correct. If 85-90% of the staff are leaving, that’s key. However, I’ve seen situations where changes were made that were really positive, but there were people around that were resistant to those changes, and they left. I’ve also seen situations where a certain group was having issues with their management, and a lot of those people left because of it, but it didn’t really affect other departments. It is important to monitor the situation, but look at the factors before just jumping ship.

          1. Wolfey*

            I found out today that the official turnover rate is 81%! Holy cow, can you believe that?!?!?!

        2. Lucy*

          My previous job was like that – apparently my resignation was a domino effect and 20 positions out of a 40 person department have turned over in the 3 months since I left! Since I’m new in town I’m planning on using this weekend to scope out some networking or young professional groups and checking out job boards, just to see what’s out there.

          I’m mostly just concerned about the timing of staying where I am too long if I’m already having doubts – if I left sooner rather than later I could just drop this job from my resume and chalk the gap up to relocation….if I’m here longer (6 months or more) I’ll have to leave it on and explain why I used my “freebie.” Ugh.

    3. Sunflower*

      Wait it out a bit but keep your resume on hand. You might not have a ton to do just yet because you’re still pretty new so I wouldn’t worry about that just yet. Maybe people are leaving because the company is going in a different direction, one that you are interested in. Some people prefer workplaces that never change, others that are fast moving. Maybe they are going one of those ways. I would keep your eye out and try to scope out what exactly is going on. You’ll know soon enough whether you should stay or get out.

      Ps- I work at a company where the majority has been here 10+ years and they all claim they hate working here. So long track records don’t necessarily mean anything either.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Eh, that’s a fairly high number.

      It’s just a number but, it would be information to me. Don’t panic, but do what you can to keep your options open.

    5. Alternative*

      “my bf tells me I’m being crazy”

      This concerns me more than your job, actually. You have legit concerns, based on concrete things that are happening at work, and he dismisses you as crazy?

      Anyways. Sounds like your new job is rough right now, but it very well may settle down. Maybe these new people will bring positive change and energy to the workplace. Maybe not. But I bet it will take a few more months to see how things will shape out. Good luck, hope it works out for you.

  30. InterviewersAnon*

    I actually submitted this question to the open thread last week but it was too late in the day to get much of a response, I also wanted to provide more context.

    What is the best and most professional thing to say when declining a job offer from another company, which I have already negotiated and verbally accepted (with the exception of start date)?

    I used my network to find and interview for this position and am afraid that declining will burn my bridge there.

    However, after I spoke to my current company about the offer I ultimately decided to stay. It wasn’t a “counter-offer” situation as my current company already had a plan in place for me, this other offer just expedited the timing for that. Also, I did not resign from my job, so technically there was no official “counter-offer.”

    The real meat of my question is – What is the best thing to say when declining this other job to have the best chance of maintaining the relationships I have there? I wouldn’t think twice about this, since people decline jobs from network contacts all the time. (The fact that I negotiated so hard with them and verbally accepted is the part that is tricky in this case.)

    1. Lucy*

      I was in a similar situation when a friend referred me to her department at Company A – I was interviewing at tons of places at the time and Company B ended up being on a similar timeline to Company A. I ended up getting offers from both on the same day and was sad to turn down Company A since my friend had referred me. I basically thanked them profusely and was sorry the timing wasn’t right….I think you might singe a bridge since you had verbally accepted but hopefully the hiring manager is able to move past that….

    2. Colette*

      I don’t think there is a way to avoid burning the bridge – you accepted an offer and changed your mind after getting a counter offer (expediting the timing is a counter offer). All you can do is be honest and tell the company you’re turning down immediately – i.e. today.

    3. Treena Kravm*

      Yes, you apologize profusely and are mortified that you have to back-out, but your current company has just offered X and you can’t turn that down. Don’t pretend even in your head that you didn’t really accept because it was just verbal. It’ll come through in your word choice. You also should probably be prepared for that burned bridge.

    4. fposte*

      As others imply, this isn’t declining an offer; it’s changing your mind after accepting. As long as you’re willing to accept the dent it leaves, it’s doable, but it’ll hurt you more if you act as if you’re merely declining rather than backing out on an agreement.

    5. Wolfey*

      If I wanted to have a chance with them later I’d apologize profusely, talk about how excited I was for this opportunity, and say that my circumstances have changed and I won’t be able to make a professional move right now. Hopefully your tone and attitude will soften any negative reaction after the successful negotiations. If your new company isn’t giving you an explicit counteroffer then it’s unlikely that will get back to them even if the industry is gossipy.

      1. Sunflower*

        Yeah I like this wording. The whole situation can come off a bit like you were using this company to get your current one to give you a raise and that’s not what happened. Framing it like something suddenly occurred would maybe give you a little leeway.

        Also tell them immediately!

    6. Cee*

      I would think *hard* about staying at your current company when you have an offer in hand at a new company. Not only would you burn the bridge at the new company, but you only have verbal promises that things at your current job will change if you stay. Do you really think all the reasons that made you job search in the first place are magically going to go away?

      2. Wolfey*

        I agree with this 100%. I’d only use the advice above if I were absolutely sure I was getting what I wanted in writing.

  31. AshleyH*

    I had an awesome week at work – I hired five incredibly talented people who are all starting within the next couple of weeks, and I’m really excited for them. Two of the new employees were unemployed due to their previous employer closing and two others were in jobs that were dead-ends with no real opportunity. Giving good people good jobs is what makes my job worth it.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      YAY!

      Can I tell you mine?

      So, we just brought on two temporary workers in our sample dept. What generally happens with these positions is that we churn through about 5 temps for every one we decide to hire (after 3 months). They either aren’t good enough or aren’t responsible enough (like, to show up to work every day) and it’s a pain in the ass for us. It’s usually a bunch of younger folks and we just have to weed through who is serious enough about actually working by real time trial. The people we do hire are then on advancement track for ultimately, anywhere they want to go in the company.

      Anyway, I get reports back on the first one, she’s doing very well. I’m like damn, well that was lucky. We brought the second one on two weeks ago and reports back, she’s doing very well. Now I’m like DAMN, I gotta go talk to these women.

      I spent about 1/2 a hour talking to them and I nearly cried on my ride home from work with my husband telling him the story. These women had worked doing fulfillment for a local large company (not the River, but under conditions like the River) for many many years. They had gotten laid off and been without any work at all for many months. They are so happy to be working, and then to be working with us and then to be working with no “point system” (the stories they told me about getting “points” from needing to leave to pick up a sick child, and the fear that they were living with while working there)…..

      Seriously and for shit. This is why I do capitalism. I wanted to say “welcome home”, ya know?

        1. Windchime*

          This is a wonderful story. I’m so glad that it’s working out for everyone! And as someone who was rescued from a Bad Place several years ago, I continue to be exceedingly grateful to my current employer for bringing me on board. And I know your new employees must be feeling the same way towards you and your company. :)

        2. QualityControlFreak*

          Awesomeness. Thanks for being who you are, Wakeen. Srsly. I misted up myself.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            God, it’s really nothing. I mean, we’re just doing our job selling teapots. We’re not some great humanist venture, we sell teapots. I’m just so lucky that in the course of doing that, I also get to improve somebody’s quality of life by creating some decent jobs along the way.

  32. Anon for this*

    The last two weeks I posted about my long journey finding a permanent job and as I mentioned I finally got one! I’m 37 and have only ever held short term contract or part time positions. So I’ve never really gone into any job with a long term mind set. Any advice on getting off on the right foot and settling into the position for the long haul? Any tips for success? Or just general tips on starting a new job?

    1. Judy*

      I always keep 2 work notebooks. One is a “permanent” one, that is where I put process information, how to log in to the different systems, how to file expense reports, how to log time, etc. I keep a first page blank, so I can index it. The second one is my daily notebook with project notes, things I need for the current work, deadlines, action items.

      Take more notes in the first notebook than you think you will need, especially for things you only do every so often.

    2. OriginalEmma*

      Outlook can be your biggest ally or your biggest obstacle!

      Organizally, you can create folders and subfolders (something like 2015>Employee Onboarding>Trainings>[e-mails related to trainings]).

      You can create rules that sort your e-mail so that you don’t have to, putting them into particular folders (e.g., weekly schedules into the Weekly Schedule folder), archiving e-mails after a set period of time (e.g., 1 month, 3 months, etc.).

      You can create your own color-coded categories (e.g., red for Sick Leave, green for Vacation, pink for Trainings, etc.) and you can use flags to remind yourself of tasks (e.g, someone e-mails you something that you need to respond to, but it requires follow-up – you can flag it then categorize it with your “Needs Preparation” and “Needs Follow-up” categories).

      1. Judy*

        Set up calendar notifications.

        If you have weekly tasks like a report, set up a 15 minute meeting that afternoon, so the calendar will remind you. When I take a vacation day, I clear my calendar, so it’s also a way to remind me to move it to Thursday, for instance.

    4. WorkingAsDesigned*

      Congratulations on your new job!

      Before starting my current job, I’d spent 10+ years doing temp work and short-term contracts, as well.

      What worked for me in approaching my permanent job was to just take it day by day, fulfilling the requirements of my position (and more where I could). After awhile, I realized that I’d been here for a long time! (8 years this July for me . . . :-) )

  33. Allison*

    So some good news, my manager is extending my contract through June! Yay for a little more job security!

    However, by the end of June (assuming I am, in fact, still here) I will have been here for over a year. I’m also taking on new responsibilities, and I’m doing more in my role since I did when I got here. Ideally, I’d like to eventually be hired on as an employee, because not having holiday pay and vacation days like most people in my office kinda stinks. If not, I’d at least like a slight raise to reflect my new level of responsibility, and I want to bring these up before my next contract extension, assuming they still want me beyond Q2. But 1) I haven’t talked about the possibility of employment with this new manager, my old manager knew I was interested but he stopped being my manager two months ago; 2) I’ve never proposed a pay increase. Basically, I have no idea how to approach either subject. Any advice?

    1. Dang*

      1) Set up a meeting and tell him that you’ve talked with your old manager, but wanted to make sure you’re on the same page about your interest. Reiterate that it’s been a year and ask what his thoughts are about timeline and process.
      2) During the same conversation. I’d ask if in the meantime while you’re still a contractor, would it be possible to revisit your salary, as you’d hadn’t anticipated staying as a contractor for the length of time you’ve been there.

  34. Abominable Snowbeast*

    This is a bit of a rant – and I apologize to all of the good HR people out there in advance.

    Why does HR put processes in place if they aren’t going to follow them? On our internal jobs site, I found a posting that I was interested in. As per the process that is prominently posted on the same site, I reached out to the recruiter handling it. Crickets. Two weeks later, I reached out to her again. Again crickets.
    Note: this isn’t the kind of posting that 9 out of 10 people would be interested in; frankly, I might be the only person at our 2000+ company who is both interested and qualified for it.
    So I reached out to the team involved, found out who the hiring manager was, and asked for an informal chat about the role. At which point, after 5 weeks of silence, HR responded and blew a gasket at both me and the hiring manager for not following the process.
    This doesn’t give me a lot of confidence in how they’ll handle any future hires on my team, that’s for sure. Apologies to all good HR people out there – I know you must be working hard, just somewhere other than at my company!

    1. Allison*

      5 weeks of silence can certainly be frustrating! You’d think they would have at least replied to your followup.

      I do wonder if maybe . . .

      . . . the role wasn’t a high priority req, so the recruiter was neglecting it in favor of more urgent roles
      . . . the recruiter didn’t think you were a fit, but was afraid you’d push back if they told you
      . . . the role is on hold, or they already have candidates in process, or for some other reason they’re not responding to new applicants right now, and aren’t telling anyone for fear of appearing disorganized.
      . . . the recruiter had a question about your candidacy, asked the hiring manager or another HR person about it, and was waiting to hear back. Hiring managers in particular can be frustrating, they say they want candidates coming in for interviews, but when asked about this or that candidate they suddenly vanish and take forever to respond.

      Did you by any chance bring this issue to the recruiter’s manager, or some higher-up in HR? Surely they’d want to know about something like this, and they may be able to provide some clarity as to why it happened.

      1. Abominable Snowbeast*

        Unfortunately, the head of HR is aware of the issues that people (this has been my first experience, but I’ve heard of many others, including on much more sensitive subjects) have with HR not responding to employees, and nothing has changed. At least, nothing that I’m aware of – I’ve appreciated learning from AAM that coworkers aren’t supposed to know if there are PIPs and the like in place.

        Fortunately, my manager was already aware that I was interested in the role (and is supportive), and the hiring manager encouraged me to apply – and they’re both rolling their eyes at HR – so it looks like it’s settled out okay. But still, as some who really likes processes…this has been painful on multiple levels.

  35. Amethyst*

    I haven’t been working very long (I only graduated two years ago) and have been offered my first chance to negotiate for a raise. Basically my boss asked what I’m interested in financially. It surprised me as I work at a house of worship and was not expecting to be offered a raise, as the ‘business’ doesn’t exactly make a lot of money. It was in a casual conversation (“your review is coming up, btw”) so I have some time to prepare. I researched the salary of admin assistants in my area, and the average is slightly higher than mine, so I’d like to ask for a little bit more… But how do I present it?

    I know from here to back it up with examples of good work I’ve done in the past year, I’m just not sure whether to name a number or suggest a percentage. Specifically I don’t how to phrase it. Money wasn’t discussed in my house growing up and my parents did not do office jobs so I feel a little out of my depth. If anyone has stories of the first time they had to talk about a raise at work, I would appreciate the advice.

    Thank you in advance. I shortly have to go out and won’t have internet, but I will check back on a computer and respond to anyone as soon as I can.

    1. Dawn*

      Oh man I had to do this last year for the first time ever and it does seem pretty scary! Basically, try to be really objective when you look at your skills and what you bring to the table, then compare what you do to what others in similar positions do and compare your salary to theirs.

      What I did when I negotiated was come in with a number and then explain how I got to that number based on market rate of comparable jobs and past success at the company, including talking about praise I had received from people other than my boss on specific projects I’d worked on. I was very objective, and very factual in what I asked for- everything I said was based on facts or hard numbers, so I knew that everything I said was correct and not just pulled out of thin air.

      Good luck!

      1. Amethsyt*

        Thank you! I had not thought about including specific praise from other people about projects, but I do have some of that saved because it’s nice to have to look at when other things are stressful at work. I will concentrate on looking at everything, and presenting everything, from a factual angle.

        Thank you again!

  36. Cruciatus*

    Just need to vent…due to someone else’s mistake at another branch of the college where I work, our employer is now taking away our USB ports. It doesn’t even relate to the original problem (which was an accidental breach of student confidentiality over email or some sort of online system–we don’t even really know for sure because they won’t tell us!). While that is terrible, I’m not sure why it’s an institutional problem (has only happened that one time) or why instead of punishing the few involved, they are punishing the many. Gah! What are faculty and staff supposed to do without USB ports/drives? Get me outta here!

    1. Bekx*

      So uh, how are you supposed to connect peripherals like mice and keyboards? Assuming you’re using desktops…

      1. Cruciatus*

        That did come up in the meeting and IT, who is just the messenger, seemed to think those “would be handled” but didn’t get into it. I think this was all done quickly by lawyers at the school who failed to think things through, it was approved by the provost, and now IT is left to implement it without any good explanations for anything.

      2. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

        I don’t know how it works at Cruciatus’ place of work, but my computer has the usb ports set up to accept a mouse or a key board but not a USB stick or external drive.

        1. The IT Manager*

          Yes! That’s a very common security measure to prevent virus and stolen/lost data. Thumb drives and other hard drives don’t work, but other devices (like keyboards, mice, headsets) will.

        2. Judy*

          I’ve worked at a place a number of years ago, that to transfer files onto external drives or USB there was a popup, and a manager had to sign in to allow the transfer.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Ours requires you to use BitLocker on any drive you stick into the computer. Which means I have to log into my own flash drive at home (the only work stuff on it is copies of my pay stubs). But that’s okay–if I lose it, no one else can get into it either. :)

        3. Michele*

          Same here. Plus, if you try to use a thumb drive or any other unacceptable advise, it alerts IT and they send a nastygram to your boss.

      3. Observer*

        Most desktop actually have PS/2 ports, and it’s not hard to get mice / keyboards with such connectors, or adapters. Besides, it’s also possible to block certain types of peripherals, so they might just block everything but keyboards and mice.

      4. Dmented Kitty*

        You can configure a USB port to “power-only”. That setting is there for peripherals like mouse and keyboards. You can shut off the “read/write” function while keeping the “power” setting intact. I have my mouse/keyboards on USB, and whenever I plug in my phone (for charging) it just charges but I can’t access anything from it. Same with my USB stick drive. I can open stuff in it but I cannot write any files in it.

    3. Mimmy*

      Don’tcha hate when one person/a few people ruin it for everyone else? My husband’s employer did something similar–they took away a capability related to conference calls because it was abused. I think Alison has talked in the past here about how it’s not effective to just change a policy company-wide rather than dealing with the abusers directly. It’s a strategy used in many areas, and I’ve never liked it.

      /end rant

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        “Don’tcha hate when one person/a few people ruin it for everyone else?”

        Yes. One arsewipe decides to fill his shoes with stuff and try to make a plane go boom… and now we all have to take our shoes off at security. Even if you’re wearing flip flops or huarache sandals.

      2. Jaune Desprez*

        I once worked in a hospital where white-out was entirely banned because some clueless person had used it to correct a medical record.

        The ban stayed in effect for years and years after the hospital moved to an entirely electronic medical record system.

    4. Amethyst*

      How are they even doing this? My keyboard and desktop both have USB ports built in. Are they going to put plugs in them? Physically remove them from the computers?

      This is a very weird thing for them to do. I hope they backtrack. Or at least get you a really nice wireless mouse and keyboard :P

      1. Hillary*

        They can be turned off via the BIOS (which is the software running the motherboard). Superglue is also a common solution.

        This is fairly standard for a couple reasons. Lost/stolen data is one reason. A tactic for targeted hacking or industrial espionage is also to leave infected USB sticks around the parking lot. More likely than not someone will pick it up and put it in their computer to see who it belongs to.

        1. Amethyst*

          That’s fascinating. Thank you for the info! Industrial espionage is so far out of my industry but it’s interesting to learn about XD

    5. cuppa*

      Something similar happened to me a number of years back. A year later, those changes were gradually undone because it made the IT department’s lives miserable.

    6. Observer*

      It’s quite possible that the situation that happened caused someone to give a good hard look at information security and this change was decided on, not as a punishment but in response to a realization that the organization is over-exposed.

      The fact that you assume the need for usb drives actually supports that idea. Why would usb drives be a routine necessity for most staff? If it’s because people are generally taking information home or using these drives to exchange data with people outside of the organization, they have a major problem on their hands.

      I agree that talking to people should be the first, not last (or non-existent) item on the list. And, not talking about the catalyst for the changes doesn’t sound too smart either.

      1. Cruciatus*

        Unfortunately, this isn’t the first wacky thing my employer has done. This is par for the course. And regarding drives, faculty often work on their lectures at home and save it to a USB drive so they can work on it here at work. They aren’t taking anything having to do with student information (not saying it’s never happened, but this is what my boss is most upset about–working on his lectures). Our email size limits are miniscule and maybe they’ll increase that, but otherwise this is going to be a big hassle for a lot of people. I put visuals (non-student information) on flash drives for others to use in the use of facilitating at another building. We’ll see.

        1. Observer*

          I understand the problem, but there are a lot of ways to get around it. One is file size limits on email. Another is setting up external file access. This can be done in a number of ways that don’t have to cost a mint.

      2. Beancounter in Texas*

        Yeah, this. It probably brought to light an existing hole in security they’ve decided to plug.

  37. A Nonnus Mousus*

    Long time reader, first time ever posting here!

    A bit of an odd question for the AAM hive mind… I am a woman currently employed in a non-customer facing tech role at a software company. This has come up several times in the last few years at different places. My style of dressing is a bit on the unique and stylishly-eccentric side (think Little Edie Beale meets Mad Men). It’s never ever work-inappropriate and if anything I am typically one of the more dressed-up people in the office (high heels, old-fashioned suits, scarves, gloves etc). I’ve been fortunate enough to work in companies whose office culture has allowed me to express myself in this way.

    What I’ve discovered, though, is that my eccentric way of dressing tends to open me up to obnoxious comments from my colleagues – specifically my male colleagues (not to generalize, but this hasn’t ever happened with any of my female coworkers). The comments aren’t sexual in nature and are often of the “I’m making fun of what you are wearing” variety. I’m never quite sure what to say in these sorts of situations. While the comments can’t be put into the box of “sexual harassment”, they do make me feel uncomfortable and awkward. I’ve typically shrugged them off or made a witty retort, but it does bother me. I don’t want to keep encouraging this sort of thing and am not willing to compromise my personal style to make that happen. I haven’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but now I’m starting to wonder if I’m actually making the mountain INTO a molehill.

    Thoughts?

    1. Allison*

      Are you my twin? I work on a recruiting team at a software company, and I too love dressing up in retro (but still work-appropriate) outfits. Big time ModCloth addict here, and I definitely have some Mad Men-inspired pieces in my wardrobe.

      No one at work has given me a hard time for what I wear, although my former manager loved that I dressed up. What I do experience is white, middle aged engineers giving me and other female colleagues a hard time about other stuff, like what we eat, or when we eat, or what’s currently on our laptop screens (“that doesn’t look like work! Aaaahahahaha I’m just givin’ ya a hard time!”). They probably think they’re an absolute riot. I don’t know if they do it to everyone or just people they view as being beneath them, like women, or younger people, or non-engineers.

      I did bring it up when it crossed a line. Some guy saw me on Reddit (I think I was posting a job, but I can’t remember) and told me was watching me. Later my phone went all wonky and started playing loud music, and he said “I hope you’re not using company resources on that thing!” My manager told me he just has a weird sense of humor, but since it was bothering me he talked to the guy about it. He stopped.

      So the moral of that story is that it’s a good idea to bring it up with your manager. Don’t frame is as a harassment complaint, but just mention that people are being obnoxious. Any good manager will either do something, or give decent advice on how to handle it.

      1. Elder Dog*

        Yeah. They’re trying to get your attention. It’s pretty common for men to demand female attention.

        They’re hitting on you but leaving themselves plausible deniability in case you realize that’s what they’re doing and don’t like it, or their wives or bosses notice. As in “aw, they’re just trying to be friendly and funning with you. No need to be such a stick about it.”

        No, they don’t do it to everyone. Mostly to younger women they’re attracted to, just in case the interest might possibly be mutual, you know? And sometimes to younger and less senior men, because all the world’s a frat house and if you want to be a brother you gotta get hazed.

        Don’t go anywhere alone with any of them, and if you have to go into their offices, leave the door open.

    2. skyline*

      I think you have to be more direct about your reaction to their comments–making witty remarks isn’t going to deter people who don’t have a clue. Maybe something like: “I’m sure you’re just joking, but it makes me very uncomfortable when you make comments about my personal appearance. I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t make them in the future.” Repeat as needed, and get more direct if you have to tell the same person more than once.

      I think it’s important to speak to the people making the remarks before escalating to a manager.

      (From your comment, it sounds like this type of clothing works in your office culture. I will say, as a data point, that not all of it would be okay in my office culture. If I had a report who dressed in the way you’d describe, I’d probably suggest no gloves, since that’s still a outlier even amongst our more stylist and quirky dressers.)

    3. Colette*

      Some suggestions:
      – pretend you didn’t hear or understand – I.e. “What did you say?” “What do you mean?”
      – call them out on it – I.e. “Wow”, “please don’t comment on my clothes”

      The key is not to laugh or smile – this is not a joke.

      1. AnotherTeacher*

        Asking for clarification is a good tactic to make the insulter examine his biases. I also employ the silent, blank stare. Or, if I’m feeling up to it, a chirpy, “Thanks!” = “I don’t care what you think, and your negative evaluation probably means I’m doing something right because you have no taste.” “Thanks!” also works for passive-aggressive comments.

    4. AnonAcademic*

      I am also a dressy vintage lover in a field that is male dominated. When I worked in New England I got far more unfavorable comments from coworkers than working in the NYC area. In NE I was told “wow, it must take a while to get your hair to look like that” by the asst. director of a research center. The lab manager also wasn’t a fan of my colorful, printed outfits. One time I wore a knee length skirt with knee high boots. The skirt kept riding up a few inches over my knees (not inappropriate in length), revealing bright purple tights underneath. The next day I got called in for a dress code talk, even though the manager admitted how I dressed 99% of the time (including theoutfit I was wearing at the time!) was fine. I swear she was just capitalizing on a “gotcha” moment based on a minor wardrobe malfunction.

      Can you tell this issue gets under my skin?

      Anyhow, I wish I had better advice, but what worked for me was to look for work environments that value creativity. In my current lab, I get compliments from coworkers all the time and even my bosses a few times based on my outfits. When I interviewed for the job I’m starting this summer I wore a acid green cardigan with a geometric printed dress – definitely on the loud side of professional – because I felt the most confident and comfortable in it.

      My long game is to rise high enough in my field that I can convince people I’m an “eccentric genius” (or at least “eccentric highly successful person”) instead of just “eccentric” :).

    5. Mints*

      It depends on the specific comments or the way they’re worded, but I think a lot of “What do you mean?” would work here, and “I don’t get it. Are you saying my dress is …?” The same tactic when people make other offensive jokes

  38. Elkay*

    I left a job a few years back because of the negative effect it was having on my mental health. I was told this week that my old boss has made noises about seeing if I want to come back to work on a new task force they’re putting together. The funny thing is that everyone I worked with (bar management it would seem) knew exactly what my reaction would be (it involved an involuntary noise, followed by “Erm, no, I really like the job I’ve only just started”).

    This very much falls into the category of fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I was “headhunted” the last time I worked there, was told that I had to be on a contract for a few months first but the job was mine, then I had to apply and interview for it, being young and foolish I didn’t realise that this was An Interview, not just bureaucratic hoops. Rather than fighting for me my manager told me HR weren’t keen on me and I had to interview again. Same manager then promised me a promotion when I told them that I was planning on leaving (as I didn’t have anything to go to I gave them nearly a year’s notice) which never materialised.

    I never spoke up to about what the job was doing to my health, which was a mistake looking back, but there’s no way I’d go back to a manager that treated me that way. If they contact me I might meet them for the sake of networking but unless they bring some wild horses along I will not be going back.

  39. ism*

    I’m the one who took a job offer and didn’t negotiate because I didn’t think I had an opening or any bargaining power. Now, in one of our “mentory” conversations about unrelated stuff, my boss let it slip that “one of our main focuses is cutting the cost of labor.” I know how much they pay a typical temp, and I know that’s why we primarily use temp labor in the manufacturing/shipping areas of my workplace. It was a surprise to hear her say it, though, when we weren’t even talking about anyone’s pay.

    I’ve been reading AAM for a couple months now, preparing thoughts and a script for when the time comes around to ask for a raise. Now I feel like all the reinforcement that my company is cheap about pay rates is a sign that I’m not going to get much if I were to ask. And I’m seeing that it’s a trend in this particular industry – I saw an infographic somewhere recently that my industry is THE WORST about wage stagnation over the last 10 years compared to other industries. What do you all think? There aren’t many opportunities in my location. This is a good job, with mostly good people, and my relationship with my manager is developing nicely. It just pays shit, and some of the more unskilled-labor roles are telling me they have never, ever seen a raise in the 10 years they’ve worked here. I wish I knew more about the management and engineers and other skilled roles and how their pay has changed in comparison.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I just did a search on this site for ask for a raise and there are a lot of articles that will help

      I was going to post a link or two but there are to many

      1. ism*

        I’ve read them all. I’m just concerned that the things I’m learning mean that when my time comes, it won’t bode well.

          1. fposte*

            A million ones of agreement. You can’t research your way into knowing what will happen when you ask.

            1. ism*

              Good point, all. I will make my case when the time comes. Part of me typing up stuff here is venting/thinking out loud, in a way. I worry a lot and I tend to try to research un-researchable things like “does he love me?” or ask advice that I know can never satisfy my own anxieties :/

        2. Elder Dog*

          That’s what they want you to think, so you’ll aim low, or not ask at all.

          Figure out how much you think you should ask for, then ask for half again that much. If you’re a woman, ask for twice that much. Let them negotiate you down instead of you trying to negotiate up.

    2. Amethyst*

      That sounds frustrating. I don’t have advice but I hope it works out in your favor. What if you also bring up cost of living concerns in the discussion? And maybe your boss was mostly thinking about the unskilled side of things. Perhaps they’re trying to eliminate some of the temps? Fingers crossed for you.

      1. ism*

        It seems that using one’s own expenses as a basis for asking for a raise might work, but isn’t wise or professional to do. Besides, it’s super cheap out here so that’s why they get away with paying so little. My employment classification is no different than the other ‘unskilled’ employees who started as temps. I’m held to the same hours, rules, and benefits as they are, but I do get paid a tiny bit more because I am in a specially created role. (They have’t hired anyone new for office work in 20 years until now.) I still had to go through the temp agency for 8 months.

        And they’re always eliminating temps. They view temps as disposable labor, unfortunately that’s pretty common. I do think I have a good case for asking for a raise after my current projects are completed successfully this summer, and might get one, but I worry it’s unlikely they’d offer me as much as I’d get at a less corner-cutty business.

  40. LizB*

    I’m having some trouble right now figuring out what I want my next step to be in my career. I’m in a time-limited position right now, so will need to find something new by August. I’ve gained a lot of great experience at this job, and feel like I’d be capable of doing several different possible jobs and excelling at any of them. These possible jobs would be lots of work for not much money just because of the field I’m in (youth development/youth work), but they might lead to better jobs down the line.

    The problem is, I’m also feeling pretty burnt out. I feel like I have zero time for any of my hobbies, or even to really take care of myself the way I should be. I desperately need a better work-life balance, and I’m not sure anything in the youth work field is going to give me that. I’m honestly feeling like I want to take a step back, find a position that just pays the bills and isn’t too boring, and spend some time with a work-to-live attitude, rather than a live-to-work attitude — but I’m worried that this will derail all of my career progress. If I take an easier job or a not-quite-related-to-my-field job, I’m worried I’ll be setting myself up to never be able to get back into the field, or trashing the two years of really hard work I’ve put in at my current job.

    Does anyone have any experience with this kind of decision? Is it worth it to go for a more intense/ambitious position at the risk of burning myself out? Can I go for something less ambitious without ruining all the progress I’ve made at this job? Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. Dawn*

      It can take YEARS to come back from a full burn out- sometimes five or more. Burning out completely will wreck you physically and emotionally and derail all of the progress you’ve made a lot harder and more thoroughly than anything else.

      You can definitely make great career progress with a work-to-live mentality, it just won’t be a crazy coke and booze fueled rocket ride to the CEO’s yacht where you proceed to drink too much, fall overboard, and drown while no one notices because they’re too busy partying.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If you are already burned out then going into a more intense position will not help.
      I am not sure what you mean by less ambitious- Perhaps you mean something that is not direct care? That could work into something for you. I am thinking of picking an office position, entry level, learning those skills and then moving on later.

      Are you sure you want to stay in this field?
      Maybe you need to change career paths to something less draining. You have not trashed your two years of hard work if you do this. Working hard never hurts you. It only teaches you. You learned lots here, and it is yours to keep. I know first hand you will refer back to what you learned as you go along. In my case, it taught me that I needed something more than work-sleep, work-sleep. Since you are talking about work/life balance maybe this applies to you? Maybe it is time to look for something where you are not falling down tired when you come home.

  41. Chrissi*

    I had posted a few weeks ago about submitting a resume for a federal job and how nervous I was about it (https://www.askamanager.org/2015/02/open-thread-february-13-2015.html#comment-664715 – sorry, don’t know how to hyperlink) . The responses were very helpful – thanks ACA, GOG11, Brett, and Katie the Fed!

    Well now I have a job interview for that job on Monday! This is my first non-internal interview in 12 years. I feel like I should be freaked out, but I’m not…that much. I know how I’m going to prepare this weekend, and I feel like I’m either going to have the qualifications and be what they want or I’m not. It was a really vague job description and a position that was created, not a vacancy, so it’s just going to depend on what they want. I imagine I’ll be shaking in my boots come Monday morning though :) Wish me luck!

    2. Christy*

      I’m sorry, are you me? Like are you sure we aren’t in a time/space warp? I am a fed who’s been in her job for her whole career and it feels like I’m hyper-specialized and I’ve also become the SharePoint expert and it’s likely I’m going to get a job in another office because of those SP skills even though they aren’t my only focus in my current office. I literally could be writing that exact post in a few weeks. I actually looked at it and got confused that I had actually written it myself. Crazy how coincidences happen. And crazy how SharePoint is the key to job movement for some of us.

      So good luck! I know how it feels, trust me. I’m so impressed by how quickly the hiring process is going for you. Let us know next week how it went!

      1. Chrissi*

        Whoa. That’s creepy almost. Seriously, your description is identical to mine. Identical. Hopefully we’re not vying for the same position! (but if we are – good luck! ). I feel like the federal government has just really bought into the whole SharePoint thing. I know in our agency, the order came from the top for all the divisions to start using it, and using it a lot. Maybe the order came from higher than just our agency?

    3. Katie the Fed*

      YAY so happy for you!

      Now, my big piece of advice – answer the question. It seems ridiculous to say it, but a lot of people forget to answer every element of the question. Take notes if you need to – but answer the question. Good luck!

  42. Nervous Accountant*

    Things have calmed down considerably even though a major deadline is coming up.

    I guess this is a long term issue and I probably will need to seek help one day. How do I get over being perpetually seasonal? As silly as it sounds, it literally hurts inside when I hear or see my coworkers talking about benefits.

    I wanted to be full time/permanent….. but again,..I was caught in the cycle of desperation that I’ve just never been able to get out of since I began working. My boss said she couldn’t justify hiring me permanently bc I had been one of the lowest performers last year but depending on how this year goes, if I do well, let’s see. (Of course no promises or guarantees but good faith? I accepted because I really wanted to work here and tbh I didn’t want to hold out for something else).

    Throughout the months I’ve gotten a lot of guidance from my boss and direct managers on improving things (it’s worked), good feedback, even acknowledgement directly from the execs….I met with the new CEO this week even though I didn’t think I would (bc why would a CEO waste time talking to a seasonal person??)

    Yet I still feel hurt. It seems silly….everyone tells me not to worry or stress or freak out but I don’t expect them to get it so I try to hide it.

    1. fposte*

      “I probably will need to seek help one day.” Why not make that day a sooner day, like today? Why wait to feel better about your life and achievements?

      I understand that there are some situational reasons for uneasiness, but even your username suggests that a lot of your distress is internal. I think if you could deal with some of the underlying stress it might help with your performance, too.

    2. AT*

      Ohhh, I feel you on this one… I’ve been part-time for nearly a year now. When I started, I was told that I’d get more hours and more shifts when I’d built up more experience in teapot handles, but none of the shifts they’ve given me are /in/ teapot handles, it’s all in teapot /spouts/, so where am I supposed to /get/ that experience?! Literally the only way I can learn to make a teapot handle in this industry is by /doing/ it on the job! Instead, they’ve been hiring a temp with four years experience in teapot handles to fill in those shifts I was supposed to get, while I’m still doing the spouts. I’m assuming it’s because it’s quicker and easier than training me up, but it’s still frustrating and rather disheartening. And like you, no promises, just good faith. So yeah, I feel you on this.

    3. GOG11*

      I used to work part time and it’s not at all silly to feel left out when, well, you are being left out of something important. It’s nothing personal, but it still stings, and it’s okay to feel hurt.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Totally agree. Set a time frame. If you are doing everything they ask, figure out a reasonable time frame for going FT/perm. If they do not move you over to that, then start looking around.

        Sometimes when we want something too much, people sense that and they string us along. Getting your heart set on a particular job/company sets you up for this crap. (It’s no way to treat a human being, but they never ask my advice on this stuff.)

        My advice: Learn everything you can. Devour all the learning experiences in sight. Make them your own. Tell yourself there are lots of fish in the sea. You need to do this, because it will help you remain calmer. Right now your self-talk consists of convincing yourself that you must HAVE this particular company to work for. And that is simply not true.

        The only thing I have found that goes up against large hurts, which it sounds like you have a large hurt, is to seriously-majorly-big time invest in YOU. Now that means different things to different people. But I think you know what it means to you. Get there. Make that investment in you happen. Be open to all kinds of ideas as to what you may need to do, also. Perhaps you are eyeing a certain course online. Or maybe you reeeally want to have a morning walk before work. See, the investment can be anything. Pour good stuff into you. See what happens next.

    4. Stephanie*

      No, it’s not silly. I work at a place where even the close-to minimum-wage part-time folks get free health insurance. Since I’m a contractor, I get nada. I’ve even had a couple of employees surprised that I was a contractor (including one who was like “Damn. They kind of screwed you over.”) I get frustrated like “Yeah, I have more oversight and responsibility and get paid a bit more, but I almost would have been better off being an $8.50/hr teapot assembler and gotten some benefits.” I get where you’re coming from.

  43. Tiffany*

    I connected with someone on LinkedIn who works at a organization I very much want to work for. After a referral from a mutual contact, she asked me to send my resume and cover letter to their HR Director (she’s a VP in the resource development dept), to use her name and that the HR Director was expecting it. That was 3 weeks ago. 2 weeks later (1 week ago), I sent a follow-up on LinkedIn to my contact, saying something along the lines of ‘I wanted to let you know I did submit my resume and cover letter about 2 weeks ago. I am still very much interested in speaking with you and your organization……’ It’s been another week and I still haven’t heard anything. Am I not being patient enough? There’s not be a specific job discussed at any point, but I know for a fact that my experience makes me a good candidate for them. It’s one of the largest nonprofits in the U.S., so I’m sure they are super busy. 3 weeks without anyone getting in touch with me seems like a lot though.

    1. fposte*

      Not for what’s close to a cold call, though. This is a really low priority on their end. I might do a followup to the HR director in another week, when it’s been a month, and then I’d let it go and consider it delightful surprise if they came back to me later.

    2. OriginalEmma*

      Was your contact only through LinkedIn? It honestly could be months between when I personally check LI, so she might just not check LinkedIn much.

      1. Tiffany*

        Yes. I intern for the same nonprofit in a different city, and knowing I’m relocating and very much want to work for that nonprofit, I looked on LinkedIn to see if I had any connections with someone at the org. Through my internship, I’ve worked with the ED of a different NP and she was connected with this lady in my new city. She introduced us and wrote me a really nice referral and I was able to get connected. She sent me a message saying we’d like to speak with you formally, please send your resume and cover letter to our HR director….we’d like to speak with you formally. I did that via email, and then last week sent the follow-up to my contact on LinkedIn.

        I’m trying to be patient, but I’ve literally spent the last 18 months essentially customizing my resume, knowing this is where I want to work. Myself, my supervisor, and my CEO have all been strategic with the projects I’ve been assigned and worked on, knowing this was the goal. If it was any other organization, I’d submit my resume and all, then move on. I’m finding it a little bit harder to do that in this case.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, it’s hard when it feels so close. But as you know, your urgency isn’t relevant to their timeline or level of interest, and you really don’t want to sound like you think it is. Time to find something really addictive to distract your brain for a while.

  44. Ops Analyst*

    In a post earlier this week someone commented about seeing a letter writer post in another forum. What other forums are there like AAM? Would love to find some additional resources.

    1. GOG11*

      I’ve been working on finding Admin related resources. They are like AAM in that they provide practical advice and answer reader questions, but they are specific to Admin work. Could you give a little more information about what you’re looking for?

      1. Ops Analyst*

        Just general work advice. Admin stuff can be helpful with organizational techniques, prioritizing, dealing with coworkers, etc. Even though AAM is not specific to a field I find a lot of the advice here valuable. It’s also entertaining and a good read. I generally like to participate in communities as well. Nothing in particular. I’d just like to know what’s out there I guess.

        1. GOG11*

          Lately I’ve been reading/following
          – Adulting – provides step-by-step instructions, advice and tips for doing things all the other adults in my life just seem to magically know (recommended to me by AAM commenters!)

          – Musings of a High Level Executive Assistant – answers reader questions, provides processes and tips for Administrative tasks (and a few office hacks, too)

          – Administrative Sparkle (sigh…don’t judge!) – book reviews, tips, processes and etiquette for Admin-related duties (this is the one I’ve read least so far, but it seems good)

  45. Anon4this*

    Just got notification that the union treasurer had his laptop stolen from his car a week ago.

    In that laptop, every member’s name, address, and SSN (needed for the union-based insurance). Still can’t get an answer as to whether the drive was encrypted, or even if the laptop was password protected for logon.

    Guess I’ll be calling the credit reporting agencies today. Union management is debating whether they should pay for credit monitoring for everyone.

    AAARRRGGH!

    1. Anon Accountant*

      Wow! They should consider credit monitoring for all especially with that type of info out there.

      1. Anony-moose*

        Um, yeah, they should be paying for credit monitoring. For everyone. I’m so sorry! It feels like getting personal data stolen is inevitable these days.

        Good luck!

    2. Nanc*

      Aaaaaannnnnnnddddd this all potentially ID theft target type info should be stored in a secure cloud and not saved on a laptop. There is cheap, safe and secure cloud storage out there! At the very least the Union should offer some $$$ to folks who want to pay to put a freeze on their credit info. Get a copy of the police report for your records. The Federal Trade Commission Consumer Info site has good information: http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/features/feature-0014-identity-theft

      I’d say assume it’s going to happen and be proactive (ask me how I know!). Good luck and here’s hoping your union creates some protocols around information security.

    4. Malissa*

      Creditkarma–Totally free site that you can use to keep tabs on your credit report. I’ve used it for 2 or 3 years now and I love it.

    5. Anon4this*

      Laptop drive not encrypted, only the Windoze logon password. :-/

      And they say the monitoring for everyone will be too expensive (~$50k).

      Initial fraud report filed with all three (though theoretically, only one is necessary), all three reporting agency reports downloaded and checked.

      This info should NOT have been on a laptop, period; especially unencrypted. If this costs me ONE FRELLING DOLLAR, I’m going nuclear on someone, starting with the treasurer. I don’t give a rip that he “feels so bad and has been working night and day to address this” (direct quote from the email). To say I’m royally p’d off right now would be the understatement of the year.

      1. Observer*

        Credit monitoring is too expensive? Did anyone think about how much a law suit might cost? Assuming that the union wins, it’s still going to be expensive.

      2. TL -*

        I used to work for a hospital that had a laptop with patient data stolen off a bus and their response was nuclear, but good.

        Old+new security measures: Everything got encrypted. Everything got auto-logged out if there was no activity in 15 minutes. Everything was password protected and the passwords had to changed every 3 months. All work had to be done on work-issued computers clear by IT. There was more stuff that I didn’t have to deal with.

        It was sometimes a hassle, but nice to know that the chance of any of our data getting stolen was very, very slim.

      3. some things i do for money some things i do for free*

        Laptop drive not encrypted, only the Windoze logon password. :-/

        I’m sorry, but – there is literally no excuse for this nowadays. Organizations should require employees to use standard client images that have full disk encryption, plus a corporate level AV and anti-malware, plus some minimal audit package to ensure that the proper passwords are set. And the thing is, it’s not like this is state-of-the-art and difficult and expensive nowadays.

        Oh well.

    7. Observer*

      It makes no difference if the computer was password protected – it’s easy to pull out the hard drive and pop it into another machine.

      Of course they should pay for credit monitoring – It’s not only the right thing to do, it’s one of the few things they can do to protect themselves if someone has problems later.

  46. Anon Accountant*

    Well the one boss did it again and stood up another client for a meeting. She waited an hour and a half for him to show and he didn’t. Unfortunately we have a corporate tax deadline of Monday and he should’ve known better than to schedule her for today. He wouldn’t answer his phone and when we reached him he was mad no one else was available. Well we have several staff assigned to a major account meeting with them to wrap up their return and other staff that are out with clients to work on their books and get their returns done.

    The available staff are bookkeepers and prepare payroll and they don’t do tax returns beyond maybe a few a season. The really bad part is he did this to her last year also and has a habit of doing this to others.

    The good part is… I have a job interview with a hospital at 1:00pm and am nervous.

    1. Anony-moose*

      Good luck with your interview! Thinking of a client being stood up (for an HOUR AND A HALF?!) makes my skin crawl. !!!

    3. Anon Accountant*

      So I asked 2 of the questions from the archives “having seen the impact it can have on the rest of the team when someone isn’t meeting expectations, can you tell me a bit about how you approach it when someone is falling short of that bar” and they seemed dumbfounded. I asked the magic interview question of “what differentiated those that were good and those that were great” and they had no answers.

      They’ve had tenure of 30+ years in their small department but said the payroll clerk “moves in one gear and that’s slow” and she “refuses to use the computer as often as she should so tasks take long time so her manager does those tasks herself”. I understand it may just be her training or what she is comfortable with but I don’t know how to take all that.

      I’m not eager jump into a place again where management won’t hold people accountable for their actions but I’ve worked at a place where the “inmates ran the asylum” and the secretary bullied others and another accountant took off an entire month without approved vacation time off and the boss tolerated all this. As such I’m super wary of little things that make me ask more probing questions when interviewing.

  47. CrazyCatLady*

    Do you ever have periods at work where you just don’t feel as on top of things as usual? I’m going through that right now due to a period of depression, anxiety and stress, and it just makes me feel even worse about myself since so much of my identity revolves around work and being efficient and on top of everything.

    1. AggrAV8ed Tech*

      Oh yes. The past few weeks in particular have really been like that for me; it’s been slowly improving, but it’s still like I’m in a haze at most times.

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        Ugh, me too. I’m so sorry you’re having a hard time! I hope it gets better soon.

    2. Treena Kravm*

      Definitely! I just focus on the one thing I want to work on, and keep it going. Work is usually not a problem for me, because I set my own hours and amount of work I want to do, but my house becomes a disaster when I’m in a funk. Right now, I’m focused on keeping the kitchen/dishes clean. And I’ve been putting one thing away every time I go into the living/dining room, and it makes me so happy to see major improvement over the past week.

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        I’m glad to hear it’s not just me. I try focusing on just one thing but I find I’m so easily side-tracked.

    3. Carrie in Scotland*

      Yes, I do crazycatlady, for the exact same reasons. hugs. hang in there, I hope it gets better for you soon.

    4. EmilyG*

      Yes, and I don’t think it ever means that you’re going to get stuck in that mode (which I’ve sometimes feared). Also, I find that when my boss is less busy, she follows up with me more, which makes me feel less on top of things, but it’s totally a function of her work rhythm and not mine. Hang in there and I hope you feel better about work and stress soon!

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        Yes, that’s my biggest fear! Instead of attributing it to depression/anxiety/stress, I tend to think my brain is just “slipping” and I am forever destined to be one of the people I usually get annoyed with :/

        And I feel exactly the same way you do when my bosses follow up with me on something – I’m usually the one proactively looping them in or giving them status updates. So even if they’re following up very early, I feel stressed by it.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Watch your self-talk. Correct yourself when you start thinking of yourself as one of those annoying people. Tell yourself various affirmations, “I like me, I am not one of those annoying people.” Or, ” I can and I will do a good job.” You get the idea.

          If your bosses follow up early and you find yourself stressed, then say to yourself “Is there something I am letting slide some where in my life?” Sometimes stress pops up in the wrong places. For example, a person could be stressed because of not paying bills on time (an at home problem) BUT the stress piles on when the boss asks for something earlier than anticipated. In this example, ignoring one problem causes increased stress in another totally unrelated situation. So use that stress as an opportunity to do a self-check. It could be that you figure out “oh man, I have been worried about taking the dog to the vet. I will feel a tiny bit better once I do that.” Then go take care of the problem you have identified. Keep doing this, see where that puts you.

    5. Daydreamer*

      Oh yes, I’m going through one of those periods right now. Feeling blah and uninspired, with my anxiety and mild depression creeping up. My identity doesn’t revolve around work, but I don’t like how lately I’ve been lacking my usual “get up and go” and normal ability to be on top of things more. I’m hoping it’ll pass sooner rather than later.

  48. GMA*

    I’m a 24 year old woman working on finishing up my master’s degree. I’m not quite to the point of applying and interviewing for jobs, but that will start in a couple of months. I know that for interviews, I need to wear a suit. But what type?

    I’m a lesbian who, in daily life, pretty much only wears men’s clothes. I have short hair and am frequently mistaken for a man. Because of my generally slight frame but wide hips, it can be a challenge to find men’s clothes that fit appropriately, but to me it is worth the effort to wear clothes that I am comfortable in, so I’m not afraid of getting a suit tailored.

    So now, back to the suit question. My concern about wearing a men’s suit is that it may come off as “aggressively masculine” if worn with a tie, but too casual if not. I’ve heard from people on both sides. I have, in my cursory online search for women’s suits, found that they are all much more feminine than I would be comfortable wearing. So, from my perspective, I have three options: 1. Full-on men’s suit and tie 2. Men’s suit, but no tie 3. Find the most androgynous women’s suit possible and suck it up. There are people online advocating all three options, but none from a manager’s perspective.

    I will be looking for jobs in male-dominated engineering firms and city/county governments, and I live on the west coast, if that makes a difference.

    1. nona*

      I think #2 or #3 are your best options, and between the two of them, it just comes down to how well the suit fits you. I think #1 might be uncomfortably formal.

    2. Lucy*

      My best friend prefers men’s clothing and she goes with the option of buying men’s shirts and suits and tailoring them to her frame – she also works in a very male field (architecture) and wears ties/vests on a daily basis. I don’t think you need a tie (since women aren’t expected to wear them), but I don’t think you should NOT wear one if it completes the outfit! My friend is on the east coast in a pretty conservative region but has to go to Boston and NYC a lot for work, and has never run into problems or anybody having an issue with how she dresses (that she’s told me). Even if she’s dressing a little “unconventionally” everything is tailored, pressed, fits well and, most important, she’s comfortable!

    3. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      I don’t have much advice to give (I’m not much of a suit-wearer) but you might like this article from The Toast written by a woman who buys a men’s suit (and has it tailored, iirc). It has some links at the end as well. I’ll post a link in a separate comment.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      My advice is to find a great tailor. You could choose what you like and have it fit to your frame. Good luck! I do my best work when I feel good in my clothes; I hope you can find the same.

    5. Anony-moose*

      I seem to recall running across a company who made suits for women. Really, it was a site that was addressing exactly what you have described: Women who typically dress in more masculine/androgynous clothing and wanted a suit that was not typically feminine or a woman’s suit, but that fit them well. They were AMAZING. I cannot for the life of me remember the name but I’l do some googling.

      I wonder if you could get a nice slim-cut men’s suit and have it tailored. It might be a bit pricey but would certainly last you a long time, and look really great.

      1. TL -*

        Saint Harridan! That’s the company!

        They do tailor made suits to fit bodies, not styles, and they don’t do gender normative cuts.

        Look into them, OP; they sound right up your alley.

    6. Treena Kravm*

      So, just to clarify, you mean “daily life” to include your daily work life as well? I think you need to first decide what you want to be able to wear during the work day (which may or may not be in the suit-category, but if it is, this is doubly important) and go with that. Because that way you’ll allow employers not comfortable with your clothes to self-select out. You have to decide for yourself how comfortable you are with potentially losing a job vs. being able to work in an accepting work-place.

      West coast is very vague, if you’re talking Seattle, Portland or Bay Area, then I wouldn’t worry at all. Anywhere else is iffy.

      I also agree that the tie is unnecessary, so you can narrow it down to #2 or 3. I would just start shopping and see what you can find. You’re going to want a plain black suit either way, and I think you’ll find that the tailored men’s suit isn’t wildly different from the women’s suit.

    7. AT*

      Like you, I wear men’s clothes 98% of the time, and am often mistaken for a male (baritone voice, broad shoulders, in my case). I’m also the same age as you. I faced my last interview clothing dilemma by fiercely rejecting both a) pencil skirt, blouse, heels, or b) charcoal suit, tie, white shirt – I went with a completely androgynous ensemble of pressed black slacks, non-heeled but completely enclosed plain polished black shoes, and a plain maroon-coloured shirt that fit loosely enough to be comfortable but I’d meticulously ironed to hang straight and look neat. I got the job, and some weeks later, in a frank discussion with my supervisor about how I should present myself to clients (initiated by me, wanting to make sure I was doing everything I could to give a good impression), the supervisor told me that most of my clients had asked her after meeting me what gender I am – and that some actually confessed initial reservations, but found themselves satisfied that I was neat, friendly and knew what I was talking about in my job. The impression I got from the whole experience has been that although a few people will be vocal about their hangups about these sorts of things, /most/ people in this day and age aren’t as bothered as the vocal ones would have us think, and get over the initial mild puzzlement within the first ten minutes or so once we’re down to business.

      Good luck! :D

    8. Lindsay J*

      There are a few companies now that specialize in doing masculine clothing for women. Saint Harridan is one I read an article about and seems to be the most popular/largest, but there are certainly others.

      A lot of them seem to be located in California. I don’t know where on the West Coast you are or if visiting them would be an option.

      Even if it isn’t, perhaps perusing their websites to see how the models are wearing their suits, etc. If you see someone who strikes the balance you’re looking for of being put together but not aggressively masculine, you can try to emulate that.

      I’ll post a website with links to some of the sites below.

    9. wonkette*

      You should read DapperQ blog and look into companies such as Sharpe Suiting (they make suits for LGBT people). I think fashion for butch women is becoming more of a thing but still hard to find. I wish you luck!

    11. skyline*

      I would say that a tie is not necessary in this situation for most West Coast metro areas. I agree with commenters above that you might want to start as you wish to go on–present yourself in a way that’s consistent with how you’d be presenting yourself once hired. It seems like that would be a good way to make sure there’s a cultural fit. So in that case #2 might be best?

      But really, I think any of these could work: they all sound neat, professional, and suitably formal for the occasion. That’s what I’m looking for as a hiring manager.

      Good luck with your job search!

    12. Blue_eyes*

      Could you wear a men’s suit but add a feminine accessory like a silk scarf (instead of a man’s tie) or a chunky necklace? It would let you wear the suit you want, but bring in a little femininity so it doesn’t feel too masculine (since that seems to be your concern).

    13. Dang*

      I’d probably go with 2 and get it tailored. I do see a lot of androgynous women’s suits out there, but they frequently have a random feminine detail that gives it away.

    14. TL -*

      Can you wear a non-super-masculine tie? I have a bolo tie that I wear occasionally and though I wear it with feminine clothes usually, it doesn’t normally read as particularly male in and of itself.

      Something like that, or a piece of jewelry that mimics a tie but isn’t quite a tie might work well.

    15. Yesterday's anon*

      The tie…so I was already employed and not interviewing and I was masculine and often mistaken for a man, wearing men’s clothing always, but when I started to wear ties at work, that got a reaction. People telling me I should “soften” my look or wondering if I was “trying to be a man”, there was some push back by some, snickers,…nothing overt or much, just noticeable because the only thing I changed was that I added a tie. And things calmed down pretty quickly. Now that was 15-18 years ago and the world has changed a lot.

      But I think the tie still has a lot of power as a gender marker, even as the world has changed. The more accepted masculine female attire, at least in my work world, is the no-tie option. I have a friend who wears a really nice men’s vest as her “tie”. It is a not the tie but it does add a bit of flair and is still in keeping with the masculinity of her outfit – it works well for her. With the tie, some people may wonder if you are/will be transitioning, now that more people know about this, and a lot people tend to be extremely rude and entitled about this and ask you about it, even at work, often in the most offensive way possible.

      But the main thing, in my experience, is for you to feel super comfortable and confident in how you look and appear. When I started to wear ties, it made me feel so much more put together and, well, sexy, I am sure it translated in my being more confident and that really shows and the more comfortable you are with how you are presenting, the more comfortable interviewers will be.

      1. some things i do for money some things i do for free*

        But the main thing, in my experience, is for you to feel super comfortable and confident in how you look and appear.

        This. Pragmatically speaking, if you interview with someone who has issues with your sexuality, the variations in attire that you mention aren’t likely to make any difference.

        And if you interview with someone who is unconcerned with your sexuality, your self-confidence and attitude are going to trump what you wear.

        So wear what makes you feel kick-ass.

      2. afiendishthingy*

        I think butch women look super cute in bowties, but, um, that may be more of a personal preference thing than actual useful job searching advice. Good luck!

    16. voluptuousfire*

      I remember reading an article on suits for masculine presenting and queer women a few months back and I wish I could remember it. Damn.

      I’d recommend checking out a website called Haute Butch. It’s an online store that’s dedicated to butch and queer women and they have some nice looking dress shirts and such on there. They’re pricey though.

      I have a jacket bookmarked on there. It’s so cute and I want to buy it as a gift to myself when I actually get a paycheck.

  49. Fuzzy*

    Anyone her work in HR? I’d love to learn more about what a job in that field looks like. No specific questions yet, but I really like what HR in my office have worked with me on (benefits, training, etc.) Thanks!

    1. Mia E*

      I do. Our office divides the tasks you mention, a few handle benefits for retirees, for health, some handle personnel, someone else does wellness, etc. The managers do more of the employee matters involving personal troubles, disciplines, Union matters, etc. It’s a pretty broad area. Some places hire people more as HR “generalists” and I would assume they may handle a smattering of these rather than specializing.

      1. Fuzzy*

        Website ate my response! Meh.

        It looks like we have the generalist/specialist deal as well. What kind of person/work style/personality would work well in HR? What does a day-today look like?

    2. KJR*

      I do, and I love it! There are some rough days here and there, but the for the most part I enjoy the variety that the job offers. I’m what is called a generalist (vs a specialist), which means I’m responsible for all aspects of HR (vs. only one area, for example benefits). This is very common in smaller companies. The larger the company, the more you will see specialists. Personally, I enjoy the variety it offers.

      1. Fuzzy*

        What do rough days look like? What kind of thing do generalists make? What kind of person/work style/personality would work well in HR? What does a day-to-day look like? What kind of a degree is wanted for a generalist position? (ex-is an MBA required, or just for management/specialist positions)

        And if you don’t mind me asking, what kind of pay scale would HR have? I haven’t been able to find anything conclusive online.

        (sorry about the question dump, but I’m really curious! :D)

        1. KJR*

          Hey no problem, glad to help. For me, a rough day is having a tricky disciplinary issue that doesn’t go well. Another issue I sometimes struggle with is being the lone wolf with compliance issues. As in, “yes, we have to pay overtime to non-exempt employees. It is the law. It is not just my rule.” So convincing managers to do things the “right” way when it seems counter intuitive to them is a challenge, but a good HR person will be able to navigate those situations. On the other hand though, when I’m able to help out with a problem situation that turns out well, or a manager ends up buying in to my suggestions, I feel pretty good about it. I also love it when a hire goes well. There’s nothing like offering someone a job, and they accept. It gives me the warm fuzzies.

          As far as personality, being able to be compassionate yet fair and unbiased helps, as does the ability to jump from one thing to another quickly. Most importantly though, a thick skin is very necessary! People are not always going to like what you have to say, but you have to remain upbeat, approachable, and non-defensive. A good sense of humor is also key.

          I have a bachelor’s in Psychology and a Master’s in it as well, with the Master’s being in Industrial/Organizational Psychology. The Master’s has been helpful in gaining employment, but certainly is not necessary. You can go into HR with just about any degree. Or, no degree at all. I have a professional certification that has served me well also, the SPHR. I would recommend you become involved with SHRM if you do decide to go the HR route.

          As far as pay grades, it will depend on role and geography like anything else, but I think a decent HR Manager job in a mid-size company could make anywhere from $55-75k per year. This is a very rough estimate. A higher C-level or VP could make much more than that. I believe the compensation folks probably make the most, but again, just my general impression.

          I hope that helps, let me know if you think of anything else!

          1. Fuzzy*

            This is all super helpful! I worked hospitality for a while and now I deal directly with parents of middle-schoolers, so a thick skin is something I have! Definitely something I want to explore more.

  50. De Minimis*

    So….I still have yet to tell anyone about my wife’s new position or that we will eventually be moving.

    I’ve decided to wait for a bit….she doesn’t have a firm start date yet though we’re guessing just over a month. I also want to wait till we get our house on the market and maybe have an idea about the level of interest in it.

    Absolutely hate that we are going through this [again!—we’ve separated for work twice over the course of our marriage] but it needs to happen. She basically killed her career in coming out here and I’m really happy that she’s going to be able to rebound into a great position with people who already know her work and appreciate her. And I know I should be able to get a job somewhere, I just have to stick around here until the house sells. If it sells quickly, it won’t be a huge deal. If it doesn’t, that’s where things will get difficult. It’s hard to say what might happen, there were two mostly identical homes in our neighborhood that went on sale around the same time, one never sold and the owners I think just moved back into it, the other one sold in a week.

    I know professionally it would be better to tell my supervisors sooner rather than later, but I just don’t want to risk them causing me difficulties as far as getting the time off to move, and unfortunately it’s quite possible I could be stuck here a lot longer than I hoped.

    To complicate things further, I found out earlier this week I was referred for a job with another federal agency that I was hoping to pursue if we ended up staying here, but now I guess I will probably just tell them no if they call about an interview [which still might not happen, I’ve been referred for federal jobs before and not been contacted.] I’m still at a grade where I could walk away from a federal career and not really be giving up very much, but the temptation is still there.

    1. De Minimis*

      Oh, and this other federal job would be a higher grade, and could be an entry point into higher level jobs.

    2. Dawn*

      Get a good Realtor- that will make a huge difference in how fast your house sells. Fix all of the easily fixable stuff in the house, spruce it up with new paint, put in new carpets if the old ones are stained, make the yard look nice. Think of how to make the house look super nice, spiffy, clean, fixed up, and as neutral as possible so people can easily see themselves living in it. Look at this as the chance to send all of your clutter along with your wife, and live with just the absolutely minimum of furniture to showcase the house as good as possible. It’s absolutely worth it to invest a couple of weekends and a couple thousand dollars to sprucing up the easily fixable stuff in the house so that it looks attractive to buyers, and having a good Realtor will ensure that they’re working hard to get your house exposed to potential buyers. Good luck!

      1. De Minimis*

        Thanks for the tips! We are probably going to contact a realtor this weekend, the one who was involved with the house in the neighborhood that sold quickly. We can’t do a whole lot in the way of renovation other than the stuff that is inexpensive and easier to do…we will have the house staged pretty well for a while until the actual moving process starts, then it’ll be more bare bones.

        1. Dawn*

          Bare bones is way better than full of stuff- I’ve worked for Realtors before, and when they stage houses they really want the bare minimum of stuff in a room. A room with a few items in it will actually look larger than a totally empty room. Best of luck!

  51. Wolfey*

    I’m done! I’m done! I’m done!

    Last day at this ridiculous office! Engineering degree, you don’t know it yet but you are mine!

    Thanks so much to Alison for jumping in with the advice to go back to school and to all the AAMers who’ve been so supportive since January. You guys are the best.

      1. Wolfey*

        I’ve really enjoyed chatting with you! It sounds like you are in a really confusing spot, life-wise–I’d definitely be scratching my head too. But you’re asking tons of good questions and being really proactive about it. I do hope you decide to go traveling though! It’s been the most rewarding aspect of my life so far and I bet you’d have a truly awesome experience.

    4. Sif*

      I’ve been rooting for you, Wolfey! I’m so glad you got yourself out of a crummy situation. Your education/career change sounds pretty interesting, too. Am I correct in assuming you’re going for the civil/environmental engineering field?

      1. Wolfey*

        Thanks Sif! I don’t yet know how I’ll specialize, but I want to work in environmentally friendly, energy efficient construction, so maybe mechanical or structural engineering? I’ll see what looks most fun when I get past the pre-requisites and deeper into it. I’m relearning calc and chem and physics right now.

  52. Anonimosity*

    Oh, by all means introduce a new procedure that negates our former procedure and shifts the burden of all the work to one person. I get that you might want to limit who can make changes in a database. But by all means, force us to ask permission of this now extremely busy person to perform a task we have been performing quite well on our own for ages. We would love to wait around for it to get done instead of doing it ourselves.

    It’s Friday. The THIRTEENTH. So, of course.

    1. Treena Kravm*

      Ugh yes. I’ve been waiting over 5 months to get a document approved for use outside of our agency from the Director of Communications. So now we’re asking (begging) to have our Director “get trained” in how to approve things so that we have someone who prioritizes our work one iota.

      (This is you in 6-24 months, congrats!)

    2. Anon369*

      Haha, I can’t help but read this in my head in Meryl Streep’s voice from Devil Wears Prada. “By all means, move at a glacial pace. . . “

  53. nona*

    I’m looking for general women’s hair and makeup opinions. I’m trying to pay more attention to how I ~present myself~ and this is a little part of it.

    What strikes you as looking professional or put-together? What comes across as unprofessional?

    1. nona*

      That is – I get my office’s basic norms, dress code, etc. I’m looking for smaller things that affect the impression somebody gives you.

    3. Treena Kravm*

      I’m not a make-up person, but having huge undereye circles signals is probably the only cosmetic thing I’d recommend addressing. Same with hair, as long as it’s neat, you’re fine.

      I’ve noticed clothes a lot more often. Torn, too-tight, or just ridiculously too-casual screams out. You’re probably not at that stage, but think about pilling on fabric, or wrinkled stuff, scuffed shoes, a small tear or stain, etc. Those are the things that make an item get retired from the “work” side of the closet and into the “regular clothes side” for me.

    4. cuppa*

      I would also add that it’s probably best to stick to more neutral colors for makeup, and I would look to cultural cues for nail polish (although nail polish should be there or not there, don’t leave massively chipped polish on your nails).

    5. Dawn*

      I’m big on being “put-together” without being “high maintenance”! For me, the big stuff is:

      Hair: good cut every 6-8 weeks, depending on how your hair grows. Easy style, no flyaways, no frizz, no split ends, no dark roots.
      Skin: Washed, moisturized, hydrated (drink lots of water and get good sleep!). Wear whatever makeup you want, but make sure it’s done well- no wonky eyeliner, no raccoon eyes due to mascara transfer, no bright blue eyeshadow applied while driving.
      Clothing: Fits well (for whatever definition of “well” you want), no stains or rips. Appropriate to the work situation- no three piece suits if your office is more business casual, no business casual if your office is more three piece suits. Shoes clean and free of scuffs.
      Accessories: Tasteful and small. I’m a big fan of having a statement piece of either a big necklace, bracelet, OR scarf, and then letting everything else be small. I’m also a big fan of the advice to put on all the accessories you want to wear with your outfit, then remove one thing.
      Nails: At the least, not bitten to the quick, and with manicured cuticles. If you’re wearing nail polish, not chipped or cracked. If you have fake nails, keep them demure.

      And then there’s general hygiene stuff like brushing your teeth, getting enough sleep, standing up straight, etc etc etc.

      Honestly I’ve found that attitude counts for A LOT when looking put together. There was a woman I used to work with who was always dressed to the nines- Louboutin heels, designer dresses, designer handbags, diamond jewelry, perfect hair, perfect makeup- but holy cow she carried herself like a huge snob and when you did talk to her everything she said was just totally and completely weird, so her attitude definitely made me flag her as “someone who had no idea what was going on”. Smiling and being professional makes anyone, no matter what they’re wearing, seem put together!

    6. OriginalEmma*

      Do you prefer to wear your hair up or down? There are ways to spruce up your average ponytail as well as ways to add dimension to hair worn down that says more than “I just run a comb through my hair.”

      Changing your part, adding a fringe (straight across or on the side, or something else entirely), using clips or claws (though I personally need an Erector Set to lift my hair with anything other than sturdy ponytail holder) and experimenting with hair products may all play into a new presentation.

      I have to wear my hair up for work, which means I default to a ponytail but I am also working on how to spruce up my presentation.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I had a perfect claw for my giant Cousin Itt hair. Perfect. And then it broke and I don’t think they sell that model anymore. I’ve been wearing a braid a lot, but I think it makes me look like old fat Rapunzel. :D

        1. Ismis*

          If you can, tuck the braid underneath and pin it – I think it looks more professional, and it’s easy! If it’s too long, then twist it into a bun and pin it.

    7. Michele*

      I would err on the side of minimal makeup. Too much just looks trashy. So does obviously dyed and heavily processed hair. Also, no leggings. They are permitted here, but no one above a certain position wears them.
      I try to wear tasteful jewelry, classic but up-to-date clothing (I have a small wardrobe with basic things like cardigans and trousers), and generally look put together. I spend very little time getting ready for work, but I do get a lot of compliments on my style.

      1. TL -*

        You’d be surprised how much make-up it can take to get a perfect natural look.

        It’s not the amount of make-up you wear, it’s the colors and the emphasis – a dark smoky eye and red lips are not appropriate for the office, but one or the other might be, toned down a little from what you would wear to go out. Really bright pink cheeks and bright blue eyeshadow also aren’t going to be the most professional. I would suggest either going for a natural look – just making everything look a bit more smoother and nice than what your momma gave you – or emphasizing just one feature – nice eyes or bright lips or cheery cheeks.

        But if you’re masterful at make-up, you can make a lot look like a very little, if that’s what you want.

    8. skyline*

      For professional appearance, I think the three main things I consider are: neatness, cleanliness, and level of formality. There are lots of approaches that can meet those three requirements. The most common things that come across as unprofessional to me are unkempt hair (sloppy, or in need of a trim) or wrinkled or ill-fitting clothes. I don’t tend to notice someone’s makeup unless it truly excessively draws attention to itself. (For example, if someone wore glittery makeup more suitable for a club to work.) In general, if someone has bags under their eyes, I’m more likely to think they’re tired or getting over an illness, not that they need to put on makeup.

    9. Nachos Bell Grande*

      I’ve been working on my put-togetherness the last few weeks, and the two things I’ve seen make a HUGE difference are eyebrows and hair. Since I had my eyebrows threaded and got rid of the (gray, ugh) roots in my hair, I’m carrying myself more put-togetherly and people are NOTICING. (And I’m getting carded now… at age 32.)

    10. TL -*

      Get your hair done somewhere good – if you have to pay for it (and can), pay for it, and if you luck out and find somewhere cheap, rejoice. Be explicit with your stylist about how you wear your hair everyday and what kind of maintenance you’re willing to put into it, get a cut that works for that, and find products (shampoo and conditioner are all I need) to make your hair look good.

      I only get my hair cut every 3-4 months, but I favor cuts that grow out well and it takes about that long for split ends to show up.

      Wear clothes that work well for you – if you’re not comfortable in heels, no matter how professional they look, you’re not going to look professional in them. So do a mix of “does this look professional?” and “will I feel professional in it?”

  54. Mia E*

    I’ll be returning from maternity leave soon and I can’t find much practical information online about pumping at work. I know my rights in this area, but day to day…where do you store your pumping equipment between uses? We have no sink, but even if we did, I can’t imagine leaving it there to dry. I also am sure meetings etc. will not be scheduled around my pumping schedule…so do you just excuse yourself if it’s time to pump? I can’t miss sessions or my supply will go down. I work for two women, should I ask them how they prefer me to handle these things, or will it be horrifically awkward for them to discuss?

    1. H*

      This is not something I have personal experience with, but a friend was able to speak candidly about her pumping needs and set up a schedule with management, and HR generously offered to vacate their office for a little bit so she could have so privacy while pumping. I say just talk to them.

    2. Xarcady*

      I do think you need to talk to your bosses. You will need a private space to pump–does your company have one set up already or will they need to designate one? Also talk about the timing of meetings. If your company uses scheduling software, you can block out the time you need.

      I’ve been in your bosses’ shoes and appreciated the employees who were up-front and open about pumping. It’s easier to know what you will need to deal with rather than having to guess at it.

    3. Sparrow*

      You may also want to post this question on Corporette Moms or search through the posts. I know in my office there is a separate room for nursing mothers. I think it’s probably best to discuss with your bosses. Good luck!

    4. Judy*

      I was lucky enough to have a small fridge in the pumping room, and those who used the room left their tubes and flanges in a gallon ziplock in the fridge during the day. It was actually nice to have the cold flanges. I would clean them at night at home. As long as you kept them cold, it wasn’t a problem to not wash them immediately. I would leave the pump in the room during the day, it was an office with no windows in the door, during the day there were 3 pumps sitting on the desk. I’d carry the pump and accessories back to my desk after my last session of the day, my pump had a little cooler that held multiple bottles.

      I pumped into the Medela bottles and then used the (playtex?) bottles with ziping plastic bags in them, and transfer in the evenings to those to send to daycare the next day. It was easier to just send those baggies to daycare. (And into the freezer for backup, also.)

    5. fposte*

      When I’ve had employees who need to pump, we’ve generally talked about it, so I’d recommend talking to your managers unless you’ve gotten cues that suggest they’ll be irrational about it. I actually wouldn’t have a big problem scheduling most stuff around a pumping schedule; meetings get scheduled around things all the time. Just say “I can’t make 9:30 but I’ll be free at 10–would that work?” If you’re in an earlier meeting that runs long, yes, just excuse yourself and depart, same as the people who have to go to another meeting will be doing.

    6. AHN*

      Do you have access to a refrigerator? I put my pumping stuff in a zip-top plastic bag inside a paper lunch bag in the work fridge between pump sessions so that I didn’t have to worry about cleaning them at work. The lunch bag disguised the contents well enough; I also worked with all women at the time which may have mitigated any squicky feelings.

    7. Spondee*

      I keep my supplies in a lunch bag in the office refrigerator between pumping sessions. I’ve handled my schedule by blocking out 2 half hour “meetings” every day. I can change my schedule to accommodate meetings, but I treat that as the exception to my normal schedule, and my (male) supervisor backs me up on that. I’d definitely talk to your supervisors about how they’d like you to handle things, but go in with a plan and ask if that works for them.

      And go easy on yourself. You don’t have to have all the answers your first day back. Good luck!

    8. Libretta*

      I just excused myself to pump, and no one ever questioned my schedule. I agree with Judy about keeping them cold if you can’t wash them – Medela sells a little cooler specifically designed for the bottles if you don’t have a fridge. They also sell wipes for cleaning the equipment when you can’t wash. I used those to wipe down the flanges after use, and rinsed my bottles in our sink.

      I am sure it will vary by work place, but I only ever got one comment from one jerkface about pumping, and he was later hauled into HR for other awful comments. Basically everyone was really supportive – except about me drinking coffee while breastfeeding – but that is another story. :) The advice I got that I stuck to was to never apologize for caring for my kid, that includes days when I have to stay home when she has a fever or something. I have stuck to that for 2 years now, and it has worked out. Congratulations, and good luck!

  55. Phillylena*

    My husband is in the military and he has finished up his military obligations. We are in Alaska. We will be moving to the lower 48 (that’s what we call the rest of the US) . I will be obviously quitting my job without new employment lined up. (I know! I know! We do not have family here, it’s cold and oh, IT’S ALASKA)

    Here’s the thing: I am 3 months pregnant. I am not showing at all right now. I am applying to jobs in the city where we will be settling. Eventually my husband will stay home with our child.

    I have read on here in the previous post that people have raked the pregnant women over the coals when they inquired about interviewing while pregnant. It was awful stuff. I want to be open and honest. But I have personally seen in past experiences and in my own workplace the kind of treatment pregnant interviewees receive. I just want to know your thoughts.

    1. Mia E*

      I was promoted just after having a baby, but I already worked within the organization. The fact is, I have seen pregnancy be a factor in hiring, although of course it shouldn’t be, and is technically illegal to discriminate on that basis. I think you probably wouldn’t want to work anywhere if they were to rake you over the coals for being pregnant/having a baby. But if you didn’t disclose it, I can see being annoyed. I’d be honest about it in an interview, especially since you’ll be showing. Indicate when you’re due, that you will return to work, how long you plan to be off.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      You ARE NOT required to disclose it, and any half-decent employer would not ask, since it’s illegal to not hire someone due to pregnancy status. It’s not illegal to ask, but then it’s technically not illegal to ask about any other protected status either, IIRC.

      I would not bring it up until you get an offer, at which point they can’t withdraw it without it appearing to be discrimination. But that’s giving them the maximum notice you can without giving them a chance to use it against you.

      Some people say that you should disclose stuff like this freely, because who wants to work for someone who discriminates? If your husband can support your family, then sure, it might not be a bad idea, but if you’re hurting for a second income, why let the idiots run the show when they’re breaking the law?

    3. Treena Kravm*

      Until you’re showing, don’t disclose. Depending on your body, a lot of employers may not notice that you’re pregnant, you may just look like you carry a bit of weight in the torso. But if it’s super obvious you’re pregnant, then just disclose and explain your husband’s role etc. It’s really all you can do.

      Whenever you’ll be moving, start applying now. That’ll make this a lot easier too.

    4. Jules*

      I did not disclose until I was offered the job. The employer did not have a problem with it. In fact, they tell me good employers don’t care.

    5. OfficePrincess*

      I’d say wait for the offer to bring it up. BUT I would strongly advise against interviewing at 4-5 months and then waiting until 2 weeks before your due date to announce it. Give the company a chance to plan for you to be out ffs. Ugh.

    6. fposte*

      I think you’re missing all the posts where people were hired when pregnant and it went fine, though; it’s really not a universal formula for hiring doom. As noted, just mention it at the offer stage that you’ll be needing time off in six months.

      If you’re applying to anyplace really small–under 15 employees–be aware that the Pregnancy Discrimination Act does not apply to them so that they can legally decide not to hire you. Doesn’t mean they’ll do that, though–just that it’s legal.

      1. Phillylena*

        Thank you for your replies. I am a small person. I like the idea of waiting for the offer then disclosing it. Thank you Cosmic Avenger for the link.

    7. nerfmobile*

      I was jobsearching while pregnant – got laid off from my previous job at not quite 5 months – I hadn’t told that company yet for various reasons, and am overweight enough that it wasn’t particularly showing. I interviewed for the job I have now when I was 7 months pregnant – it was probably at the point that I either looked somewhat pregnant or just really fat – and no one asked about it at the interview. So when I got called back (by the internal recruiter – big company) to talk about an offer, I explained the situation – that I would be needing time off for maternity at what would at that point be just a month or so after starting. Although I knew they couldn’t refuse to hire me explicitly because I was pregnant, I figured the hiring manager would be well within her rights to say no, we need someone who would be available during X period (since it was so soon). But, they didn’t take that option and did go ahead and make me a good offer, equal to my previous salary with some additional bonus opportunities – with the perk that the company policy was IMMEDIATE eligibility for health benefits and also that I would receive partial short-term disability pay while out on leave. I liked the opportunity anyway, so you can bet I snapped up that offer. I’ve been here for just over 4 years now. While I think my first-year performance was only adequate (imagine being new-baby-sleep-deprived while also trying to learn a new job), I’ve received stellar reviews and significant raises since then, and also a promotion. My manager is pretty happy she took the gamble on me.

  56. H*

    How does one go about find the average starting salary for a certain field? I’ve tried google without a lot of success, the institution I’m applying at doesn’t list any kind of salary info, and everyone I know in my field has worked in it 20+ years so I don’t expect them to have accurate starting salary info.

    1. HigherEd Admin*

      I like Glassdoor for salary research. You can pick a few companies within your industry and see what people have reported as their salaries for various positions.

    2. jillociraptor*

      Yep, Glassdoor is great, if you can find a position similar to yours. PayScale is another site where you can put in information about your past experience, location, and skills, and it will compare you with others who have submitted information to the site to see how your salary/offer stacks up. I found that pretty helpful and accurate. I do have a little more context on typical salary bands in my organization, and for what I know, PayScale’s advice was pretty close to what I would expect internally.

      1. H*

        I will check Payscale! I have not had much luck finding similar positions with disclosed salaries on Glassdoor.

      1. H*

        Unfortunately all I’ve been able to find from the professional organizations I belong to is “it varies”

    4. Blue_eyes*

      Try looking at similar job postings – not all will have salary, but some will and that can give you an idea. And check Glassdoor as well.

      1. H*

        The big snag I’m running into is that most jobs where the posting is listing a salary are not anywhere near where this job is, and by that I mean the majority of listings in this field are large cities (like NYC and Seattle) and midwest college towns. Glassdoor has very few salaries from the institution I’m applying at, mostly for professors, and I’m not sure how a professors salary compares to a librarian/archivists salary even within the same institution.

        1. jillociraptor*

          If it’s an academic institution, is there a public school nearby enough? Sometimes their salaries are required to be reported publicly (or at least you can find the salary scale with a little google-fu).

          Another way to get a really general range would be to search for a cost of living adjustment calculator, input the salary you find for somewhere else, and calculate the equivalent in your area. Obviously this isn’t a science, but it might help you figure out if you’re totally off base.

        2. Blue_eyes*

          Hmm. That does make it more difficult. If you can find any that do have salaries that are in a similar location (size of town, etc.) that may give you a better idea. You could also try looking for salaries for the position title on Glassdoor and see what it says for different locations, or search for peer institutions (especially public ones as jillociraptor suggested) to get more data points. If you want to get really math-y with it, you could compare librarian/archivist salaries in NYC with professor salaries in NYC to see what the ratio is, and then apply that ratio to the professor salaries for your institution. Doing all of those things should start to get you a range.

  57. Relly*

    I’m currently job hunting, but my problem is that I can’t narrow down what kind of jobs I want to apply for. I’m currently an administrative assistant, but my job has included graphic design, marketing, website admin and design, and manual work like engraving. I feel like I’m spread too thin and have no focus. Has anyone dealt with this? How did you figure out where to go next?

    1. Jennifer*

      Apply for anything that you qualify for. Let them figure out whether or not they want to take you for graphic design, or marketing, or whatever. Unless you don’t want to do marketing again, in which case don’t apply for marketing jobs.

      The market will decide for you, I think.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Do you work for a small company? In my experience, you end up wearing a lot more hats in smaller companies (which gives you a larger skill set but less focus). Is there anything you work on more than other things in your current position? Or something you are more interested in? That’s how I narrowed down which jobs to apply for, after working someplace where I worked on such a huge variety of things from day-to-day.

      1. Relly*

        Yeah, I work in a very small company, so I’m basically the entire marketing “department” as it were. I do like the graphic design aspect of it a lot (I’ve made a dozen or so advertisements in the past year), so I might have to focus on that more in my job hunts!

    3. Sunflower*

      Oh boy that’s me! My experience is in project management/client services/event management/marketing and I kind of like all of it!

      What are you really interested in? My process is thorough but not really efficient. I like to search lots of different job titles and go through all of them. I usually skim over them to see if the years experience is in line then save it. I go back later and read through it to see if I’m really interested in it. Then apply, interview and see how you feel after that,.

  58. anonintheuk*

    Having a moan.

    I have, several times, told the recruiters I am in touch with that I do not drive because of a disability. One of them is now trying to argue with me after I declined to be referred for a job which I agree would be a good fit, but which would take me nearly two hours to get to because of no direct train or bus. Seriously, I don’t care if it’s 15 miles away down a major road. I don’t have any way of getting down this major road, unless you imagine I am going to hitchhike to work.

    1. Jennifer*

      As a former non-driver, you have my sympathies on this. Drivers just don’t get the concept of “can’t get somewhere without a car” for shit. It’s pretty much why I’m in the industry I’m in–I work for the one big local company I didn’t have to drive to get to work at.

    2. Amethyst*

      I hope they set you up with something better soon. I also rely on public transit and the concept of what that means just goes over some people’s heads. It’s very frustrating to deal with.

    3. Mimmy*

      This is the very bane of my existence and why I’ve pretty much given up looking for full-time work in my desired field. Sure there is public transportation, but the prospect of a 2+ hour one-way commute–which I’ve endured before–where any hiccup along the way could muck the whole thing up makes me rather twitchy.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, that stinks. I’ve dealt with not having a car and it really does limit you in terms of where you can work, when public transport is spotty or non-existent. I hope the recruiters get a clue and find you something good that’s easier to get to.

      1. anon in the uk*

        My current job is okay (and fifty minutes door to door- twenty minutes on a train and fifteen minute walk each end) but I am looking for the next step up. Sadly, anything taking two hours to get to on a regular basis cannot possibly qualify as ‘better’.

    5. Merry and Bright*

      Been there and done that and you have my sympathies. I live in easy travelling distance by bus or train of 4 good sized towns, not to mention London and I tell the recruiters I have no car. Yet they only want to send me for work out in the middle of nowhere with no public transport. Aahh!

  59. ManagementNewbie*

    I work in HR in a large, multi-campus organization. I am looking for whether I’m completely off-base with my thinking here, and if not, how best to attack the issue. By necessity, HR needs to be “available” to employees. Based on the size of our organization (1500-2000 employees), we have a comparably small HR staff.
    Throughout the day, my staff and various employees walk in without an appointment, who “just need a minute” (it is never just a minute!). These drop in’s eat up a very large percentage of my work day, and the interruptions are draining on my productivity. Between the drop in’s, scheduled meetings, and checking email/voicemail and responding, I find most days I cannot begin doing much work until after the end of the work day. I used to be willing to do that, albeit I don’t think my salary is worth it, but as a new mom, I am no longer able to do this, at least for awhile.
    I’ve implored my staff to use email where possible (much of their questions are simple enough and not urgent and could be handled easily this way), but they have not changed. Most employees believe their issues to be urgent, although most aren’t.
    I previously worked in the legal field where drop in’s were uncommon and email was heavily used even for inter-office questions. Is this the nature of HR? Am I totally off-base to find to find this a complete drain on productivity? I’m new to management and I know some of this is par for the course, but I feel it’s out of hand.
    I considered suggesting to my supervisor implementing “walk-in hours”. Or perhaps I just need to be better about saying I do not have time and they need to schedule a meeting? If anyone has suggestions for how to handle this so I can get something accomplished other than triage all day, I would so appreciate it.

    1. Jennifer*

      I would suggest “walk in hours” myself in your circumstances.

      I work in a “walk-in” now myself and I hear ya, it’s annoying and my supervisor says the same things you do. But it depends on how much ability you have to fend off people who want to see you. If you have a cube and no office, it may not really be doable to shut people out in the way that you could with an office where you’d close your door and leave a “At a meeting” sign on the door.

      But some jobs, well, the point of them is triage. Yours might be one of them, and handling the triage may be more of a priority to your supervisor than doing your actual work.

      1. Nanc*

        The Walk-In hours concept is a great idea. Additionally, do you have regular meetings with your staff? It might be worth tracking what sorts of stuff they keep bringing to you. Maybe you can schedule meetings around these issues.

        Good luck!

    2. Colette*

      When people interrupt you with a question that’s suitable for email, as an yiu redirect them – I.e. “I’m in the middle of something, can you send me an email?”

      They’re doing what they’re doing because it works.

    3. MaryMary*

      I like the idea of “walk in hours.” Or the opposite, blocking off time in your schedule to get through your day-to-day work done, like a meeting with yourself. If you can’t get away with doing that every day, even once a week might help. You could also try suggesting that anyone who has an issue that might take longer than 10 minutes to address schedule a meeting instead of dropping by.

      Are you getting similar questions over and over? Maybe there’s an opportunity to schedule a session for everyone with questions, or create some documentation.

      In terms of email versus drop ins, I think it’s an office culture issue. OldJob was very email-centric (in fact, they eventually moved to the opposite extreme and we didn’t have any HR onsite at all, even in large offices, you had to email or call). It sounds like your job really values the personal interaction.

      1. Fuzzy*

        Sessions are great! A lot of benefits don’t kick in until a few months after new staff orientation, so I was on the phone with HR getting the same information they had already told me. If you can find time to schedule presentations or sessions with Q&A time that may help cut down on the drop ins.

    4. Mints*

      I love the idea of “office hours” we do this a little but it’s not catching on that much. You could also do virtual office hours where you host call time once a week or whatever for people to call in (I’m picturing the “multi-campus” really gigantic).
      Also, if they’re really easy/basic questions, could you have handouts or copies of employee guides? So you could say “Take a look at this and email me if it doesn’t answer your questions.” Sometimes I have questions that I know are easy, but I can’t find the link on the intranet or everyone lost their handbooks.

        1. ManagementNewbie*

          yes, lots of confusion over who to call, great idea! Thank you! Of course, we have trouble with staff not being responsive, but that’s another issue…

  60. C Average*

    *Knowledge Management*

    In the comments under last night’s post, I mentioned knowledge management, and another commenter wanted to know more about how I’d gotten into that field. It’s one of those weird little crannies of the corporate world that most people don’t really think about. Things like process docs and FAQs are deliberately written in such a way that it’s hard to conceive of an actual human writing them, but actual humans do! They research them, write them, edit them, maintain them, audit them, archive them, localize them for other geos, optimize them for search, control access to various types of content, and collaborate with other teams in all of these processes. It’s complex but actually pretty interesting work.

    If there’s anyone else who would like to know more about it, I’m always happy to answer questions. I think a lot of people get into it by accident, but it’s a decent career option for English majors, library science grads, and other people with a strong bent toward wordcraft and information management.

    1. LeahC*

      Me!!!! I’d love to know. Coming from academic editing, I’d love to get more technical. How did you get into it?

      1. C Average*

        Sideways. I worked for my current company for five years in various channels of tech support, mostly social media, and earned a reputation for product knowledge and a clear, rather technical writing style. Through my role, I worked quite a bit with the knowledge base team and was a known quantity to them. The product area in which I’m an expert became a bigger and bigger part of our business, and the department decided to add a knowledge base author specializing in that product. They pretty much created the role with me in mind.

        I get the impression this is pretty common for this type of role: it gradually dawns on the business that they need to strategically corral a certain kind of information, and often the person who’s best equipped to do that is someone who already works there and knows the products and processes.

    2. april ludgate*

      Thanks for posting about this! I don’t have any questions for you, but I’m currently working in a library and searching for other fields I could pursue with the experience I have and I’d never heard of Knowledge Management before, and it’s something I’m definitely going to look into now that I know it exists!

      1. C Average*

        A resource I really, really like is nickmilton.com. He’s a UK-based knowledge management expert, and his blog is a phenomenal collection of information about what knowledge management is, how to do it well, who’s doing it well, etc. I find it interesting to observe the different titles knowledge managers hold at different organizations. If you were interested in this kind of work, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to browse his archives for that information and use those titles to keyword-search for those kinds of jobs.

    3. Lindsay J*

      I’d be interested in knowing more about how you got into it, what your day-to-day working life looks like, etc. Basically anything you would be interested in sharing.

      1. C Average*

        Typically, my day starts with a quick scan of my emails. Since my role is global, I’ll often have action items from Europe and Asia that come in overnight, or updates from my colleagues there on action items I have sent them. (Because we’re headquartered in the U.S., I send far more action items to the geos than I get from them. More on that later.)

        Then I usually review the reports we get daily from our call center about call drivers, call volume, etc. That helps alert me to any emerging issues I might need to research and write about, or any of our content that might not be getting the job done effectively.

        I often take a quick spin around the building to touch base with our training team and our contact leads, with whom I work closely.

        Then the main work of the day begins: the queues. I sit with a team of 10, and our main role is to work a series of CRM queues. We receive direct, anonymous feedback from consumers about our user-facing FAQs as well as direct feedback from our customer service agents about the knowledge base content we write for them. Queue feedback ranges from the useless (“you suck, and so does your mom!”) to the perplexing (“it didn’t work”) to the helpful (“the navigation on step 3 looks different on an Android phone”) to the impossible (“can you get us screenshots of every dialogue box in Japanese?”).

        Minor changes to content can be made without additional input, but major changes can be quite complex and involve a lot of back and forth. In some cases, we need to reach out to stakeholders in other parts of the business (product managers, brand managers, Legal, PR, etc.) for information or approval. In most cases, it’s simplest for everyone if we create a draft, send it out to our single-point-of-contact manager, and then have him/her funnel it to the correct people and gather their input. Where we have established relationships outside our department, we gather input directly from the relevant stakeholders. It can be challenging to do this at times, because everyone’s busy, content changes can be controversial internally, and people change roles around here a lot. The guy who was your go-to last week might be in a different job this week.

        Once the draft is approved, we write it in html in our publication tool and send it to our localization manager, who exports it for translation. We notify the geos by email that the content has been updated and to look for a translation in about a week. We work with a translation service who charges by the word, so we’re ever cognizant of minimizing changes, using similar language across articles, and making minor changes in-house when we can. (Each of us knows enough of at least one language to be dangerous, though none of us are truly multilingual.)

        We then put a notification in the internal blog we use to alert our agents to changes in content. This is my favorite part of the job. I really enjoy creating eye-catching memes and writing engaging content for our agents. I know they have a tough job, and it’s satisfying to inform them and sometimes even make them laugh. They can comment on these posts, so it’s also part of our role to respond to those comments.

        We also do project-based work, which can take us away from the queues for extended periods. If a new product launches, for example, we write the FAQ content for our support site, which typically involves beta-testing new products as a way to develop content. Because we aim to have content available and translated at launch, it’s necessary that we create that content well before the product hits market, or in some cases is even announced. Typically we sign NDAs and keep our drafts very tight throughout the approvals process.

        When we launch a new geography, that’s a big project as well. We have to audit all existing content and decide what to export and what needs to be localized. (Process and policy content, for example, tends to vary greatly by country and region.) We are often in-country for those launches so that we can be on hand to respond to emergent needs.

        We’re perpetually on call. If something newsworthy happens–the site crashes, we’re in the news for the wrong reasons, a standard process stops working, etc.–we must alert the team right away and make any necessary content changes. This can be a little harried. (True confession: I love this part of the job! I think I’m a bit of an adrenaline junkie.)

        Periodically, we make changes that requires a full audit of our content. For example, if we update our html template or change the categorization tree for our articles, we must review and update everything accordingly. These tend to be crazy, all-hand-on-deck efforts, with long hours and beer in the office fridge.

        A weird but interesting part of my job is managing the internal known issues list for our site and product. Any issue that a consumer is somewhat likely to encounter has a name, a description, a bug-tracking ticket, a required categorization, and an escalation path. I create and maintain all that content. It’s significant, and probably takes the equivalent of at least half a day of work each week.

        I’m also the de facto go-to for product knowledge in my department, so everyone does drive-bys and asks me the obscure questions no one else can answer.

        Sorry this is so long! I guess I do a lot of stuff.

      1. C Average*

        The hardest part is knowing answers and not being allowed to share them. There are times when a topic is just something we’ve decided as a brand not to touch, even though we know our audience has questions about it. I hate having to give dodgy non-answers to good questions.

        The part that gives me the best sense of accomplishment is when I see that a new article we’ve created is getting a lot of page hits, and that we’re getting either fewer contacts about the topic (if it’s an FAQ) or that we’re seeing a higher solve rate (if it’s an internal knowledge base article). The numbers don’t lie!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Regarding your first paragraph: Do you every have times where you tell them that you think they do not need to be dodgey. Here is why ___? Or is this decided by the PTB and you have no say?

    5. LPBB*

      Thanks for posting this here! I’m the one that asked for more info and did want to follow up a little bit about it. I have a library science degree and have come to realize that the aspect of library work that appeals to me most is organizing, maintaining, and sharing information. I never really wanted to work in a public or academic library, I was always more interested in special libraries or non-traditional librarian roles.

      Going from your description, it looks like I really need to bump up my tech writing skills. I keep meaning to take a class in that, but then it gets pushed down the list of priorities. I also know from job listings that I have a definite lack of tech skills. Obviously this would be specific to your situation, but are there certain tech skills you would prioritze over others?

      I’ve worked at so many companies where information is siloed, unevenly distributed, or just stored in the heads of people and lost when they move on that I’ve become hyperaware of the need to make information available. It’s really frustrating that other companies don’t seem to recognize that.

      1. LPBB*

        I also wanted to ask what you would recommend reading on the topic. I know there’s KMWorld, which I look at periodically. Do you have any especially useful resources? Websites, blogs, forums? I’m coming at this from the library world, where it seems like every librarian and their cat have a blog, but I know not every industry is like that!

      2. C Average*

        Not necessarily. My tech writing background is relevant because the product line I write content for is technical (it’s apps and personal electronic devices), so the team needed someone with that skill set. Our team also includes a localization expert, an SEO specialist, two generalists, and an html specialist. I think tech writing can’t hurt, because tech companies often have extensive knowledge management needs because there’s just so freaking much information that needs to be contained! But it’s not a requirement at all for this kind of work.

        As to what to read, check out nickmilton.com. He’s by far the best resource I’ve found. His blog is a fantastic collection of knowledge management geekery.

    6. Mimmy*

      I’ve seen that phrase, “knowledge management”, and never could get a grasp on what the heck it is! I value knowledge–that is, content that is specific to your job/field–but something tells me that KM isn’t even remotely close to what I think it is, LOL. I too would like to hear about the day-to-day work.

      1. C Average*

        I think, in broad strokes, knowledge management is a strategic effort to bring a company’s information and knowledge into a central, searchable, accessible place for all stakeholders. Its benefits are many: it facilitates consistency in processes (because everyone can view and follow the same guidelines), it offers a channel for quickly and easily distributing new information, it makes training MUCH simpler (because you don’t have to cram everything into new employees’ heads–you just cover the basics and let them know the knowledge base is a resource that’s always available to them), and it creates opportunity for collaboration (because employees across the company matrix have visibility into what others are doing).

        As for the day-to-day, I’ve described it in exhaustive detail upthread!

    7. Sabrina*

      I would. I used to be the AA to a CKO team and the only thing he managed was his tee times.

      1. C Average*

        There are a lot of worthless knowledge managers out there, for sure. Way too many people think you build a KM system and then just sit back and watch it do its thing. Ours is successful because it gets a lot of use, a lot of feedback, and a lot of engagement. And it gets updated all the time. It’s in constant motion. A lot of knowledge bases kind of die on the vine, though, giving their managers time to . . . well, golf, I guess.

  61. Beezus*

    I have a horror story for y’all today.

    I got period blood on my pants and work chair yesterday. Not a small amount, either. Our CEO was on a visit, to hear a presentation about a project I contributed to, given as a stand-up meeting in my immediate work area (open plan, yay). We are a large company, and direct attention from the CEO is a Big Deal. Instead of standing up with my team and try to work in a great point or two, I had to fake a work emergency so I could stay seated at my desk and pray that no one in my group, standing ten feet away, tried to do me a favor by calling attention to me. There was no time to go home and change, and in my busy open plan bullpen, there was 100% chance that someone would pull out my chair and try to sit in it if I left it empty for that long, anyway. I went to the bathroom to clean up as much as possible after the meeting dispersed, and stayed half an hour late to make sure no one would see my chair. At least I was wearing black pants.

    Mercifully, our building manager is female, and was completely understanding about it, and came back late last night to work some magic, and you would never know, looking at my chair now!

    1. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      Aaaaah I live in fear of this day. I’m so glad your building manager helped you out!

    2. RosieR*

      Been there! It is so embarrassing, but at least you were wearing black pants, otherwise no bueno. In the past I’ve IM’ed a female coworker and asked if she had an extra sweater or something I could tie around my waist in the mean time.

      1. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

        I had to take a half day last week due to a similarly messy situation, so I feel your pain.

    6. AnonnyLady*

      That is my nightmare! I always get paranoid around that time of the month.

      FYI, I did end up buying special panties (washable) called Thinx that have a built-in shield and absorber stuff, and it’s made me worry much less about this.

    7. Trixie*

      And so helpful when everyone can keep a stash of supplies in their desk/lockers because you know you’ll have those when you forgot yours’ or ran out.

      1. Beezus*

        My workplace actually has a company-purchased stash in the ladies’ room! It’s cheap stuff that I would never buy for myself or use except in a pinch, but in a pinch, I am so glad it’s there! My company is awesome.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I TOTALLY have a stash. Though I can usually tell when it’s coming on thanks to a massive headache, now that I’m off BC, I do get surprised every once in a while.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I was so convinced this would happen to me that I kept a change of clothes in my car.
          ahhh… memories…. (not)

        2. Dmented Kitty*

          Now that I’m on BC it’s convenient to know what day it’s coming, and now it’s light I don’t have to get the super fancy absorbent pads anymore (and no more horrible cramps)… But pre-BC I knew mine’s coming when my boobs started to hurt :P I always, always keep a “security” stash everywhere I go — a couple pads in my purse and a couple pads in my laptop bag. And I wear liners around the week my boobs become tender. Just in case.

    9. Hlyssande*

      That’s the reason I bought a black towel when we moved into the new office and they’d bought chairs with LIGHT BEIGE seats!

      I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. I’ve had similar things happen to me on many occasions as my period was always incredibly heavy and long before getting on BCP on a long term basis. :(

      I’m glad the building manager understood and was so helpful.

  62. So Very Anonymous*

    I just wanted to pop in and say thanks to Wakeen’s Teapot for the good advice/conversation we had on last week’s thread, about me trying to figure out how to set boundaries without feeling like an underachiever. Lots of good things to think about, and it was great to get some insight from someone outside my field, where boundary-setting sometimes gets framed as a Bad Thing. Thanks!!

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        Your comment re banking my definition of achievement off other people rang very true. Which is why it was good to get advice from outside the field — better perspective. Yay!!

  63. Seashell*

    Does anyone know anything about being a project coordinator? This position was suggested to me (I’m in production right now for books and programs). I did a quick search and saw a lot of contract positions but it sounds so broad that I’m not sure where I would start/what to look for.

    1. Sunflower*

      I’m not one but I am interested in those roles. Project coordinator is a really general term that can mean a lot. They go across all different industries and can mean such a variety of things. From my searches, the contract roles are usually IT project coordinators. There are also a lot of construction management roles. I’ve been trying to find a way to sift through these things besides just clicking and reading but haven’t found one just yet!

    2. Dang*

      It’s a really broad title and depends a LOT on the area you work in. Do you want to stay in production? Is there another field you’re interested in moving into? Try looking it up in conjunction with the area you want to work in and you might have better luck.

      I’ve been a project coordinator in academia, but as I interview for other positions I see that the title really varies by industry.

    3. Mints*

      Very generally, I think it’s a junior position to Project Managers. So you might get good info looking into Project Managers in that industry.
      I work with Project Coordinators in a service industry so our “projects” are customers, which sounds really different from what you’re doing

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Question: what the heck is a project manager? I always see them mentioned here but I honestly have no idea what they do!

  64. RosieR*

    Hi everyone- frequent lurker, first time commenter.

    My mom is trying to change jobs, but she’s been at her current one for 20 years. I know that anything farther back than 15 years is not really relevant for your resume, but do you all have any thoughts about how her resume should look? Currently it’s just one long list of her job duties (which I’m trying to get her to change to more achievement based items) for that one job she’s had for forever. It doesn’t even take up the whole page and I fear it’s not taking into account all of her experience.

    What have you who’ve worked at the same company for a long time do when formatting your resume for a job change?

    1. Artemesia*

      If her switch is to something similar to what she has been doing then the key thing is making her experience achievement oriented. But I would also include previous experience briefly (that is post college grown up work i.e. not high school or college jobs or perhaps a first go nowhere job after school) If she is trying to change to a position where an earlier job would be relevant of course include those.

  65. Anie*

    LMAFO!

    I thought my boss wasn’t reading my emails. As in, she’d download the attached docs and ignore the comments in the email. She’d “reply” to my email with an updated doc/attachment, but never add any comments to the body of the email. Most of the time I’d have to get up and go to her office and ask her the questions from my email body to get her feedback/opinion.

    Sooooo, I may have started being a little ridiculous in my emails. Just adding silly, un-work-related comments. Finally, today, I wrote, “You don’t even care, do you? I just pour my soul into my emails and you delete them without reading.”

    Turns out she does read them. Though she once again only mentioned it when I went into her office to ask about something in an email she’d never replied to.

    1. Underling*

      Haha! Sounds like you have a fun relationship with your boss if you can do that sort of thing. Mine definitely doesn’t read my emails but I only get the pleasure of his realizing it when he asks for information I’ve JUST sent to him.

  66. Anon for this*

    I have a question about how and whether to approach my manager with my concern about her attitude. Whenever my unit becomes aware of a new problem that our organization (as a whole) should be addressing, I feel like my manager’s main concern is making sure that _we_ aren’t made responsible for taking care of the problem, rather than ensuring that the problem is addressed. Some of these issues are minor, like making sure forms that The Powers That Be have decided we need are filled out, but sometimes it’s cases of making sure our organization is complying with federal law. In all of these cases, my manager’s first priority seems to be making sure that our unit isn’t made responsible for tracking compliance or otherwise taking responsibility – even if we’re the logical office to be tracking the issue. She wants to make sure that other offices are individually responsible, even (to my mind) at the risk that the tracking just won’t take place at all.
    Should I address this with her or just accept it as part of her personality? If I do address it, what should I say?

    1. Colette*

      I wouldn’t address the attitude, but I would deal with the results – i.e. “Since each location will be managing this for themselves, how will we make sure it gets done in case there’s an audit?”

    2. Beezus*

      I wouldn’t address it, as an underling. Avoiding being accountable is a performance issue that her manager should be addressing. I’d be aware of how her attitude might reflect on the team’s image, and on mine by association, and try to offset that in my interactions outside the team anywhere I could, and I would be job hunting, but I would not address it with her directly.

    4. AnotherFed*

      One other thing to remember – you might not have all the details your manager does about workload, staffing, and strategic goals. Sometimes, even if your group seems like the most logical one to do something, the current workload, staffing, and priorities mean it really isn’t the best choice, or taking on the new tasking means taking on unacceptable liability or risk. Scope creep can be a huge drain on a team!

    5. some things i do for money some things i do for free*

      I gather you think she’s simply trying to avoid work, but in truth she may have good reasons for her priorities. She may well have a mission statement that explicitly excludes the actions you mention. She almost certainly has a budget and limited resources. Admittedly I don’t know all of the details. But if you’re going to sit down with her, you may want to ask her about these kinds of issues.

  67. Underling*

    I work in a small office (less than 15 employees). We (the support staff) have been instructed to go to the company’s administrator with any questions or issues we have. Understandably, the heads of the company are more concerned with running the company than managing their staff; that’s what the administrator is for.

    Here’s the catch: the administrator and I don’t get along. There have been little instances of friction here and there, and they’ve added up to palpable tension between us. To give a couple examples: after an administrative meeting, I circled back to a colleague to make sure we were on the same page about one of the items we’d discussed. We stepped into a conference room, and a few minutes later the administrator knocked on the door, came in without waiting for a response, and told us we were wasting time, undermining her authority, and had no reason to meet without her present (I wrote about this incident in a previous open thread). Another time, I had left the office to run a work-related errand and she called my cell phone, clearly upset, to question me about the errand and why I had gone without her permission (I regularly run these errands with the approval of the heads of the company, and had never sought her approval to do so before; other colleagues do the same). I asked if we could discuss the issue in person the next day, to which she agreed. I checked in with her twice the next day and she brushed me off, saying she was too busy and we could speak the following day– but we never did. Admittedly, I did not follow up again.

    At this point, it’s obvious that she’s avoiding any conversation with me; I’ve point-blank asked for a meeting (saying I’d be happy to schedule it far in advance to accommodate her busy schedule) and she has instructed me to list my items and she would review them via email. She’s supposed to be a resource for me, but I’m not comfortable discussing sensitive issues with her– and frankly, I have doubts that she would adequately address my issues even if I did bring them to her attention.

    I am generally unhappy in my job and have been actively job searching for several months. From my perspective, I have three options: (1) go above her and speak to my direct supervisor, the head of the company, (2) try to clear the air with the administrator, or (3) bear the misery and keep my head down until I leave. I have a hard time not speaking up when I see that something is dysfunctional, so perhaps I’m more bothered about this than someone else might be. I know for a fact that other coworkers find her to be a a bulldozer and somewhat unprofessional when she feels threatened; I am not the only employee in the office with whom she has butted heads (4 people in less than a year for such a small office is a lot). I’m leaning towards say nothing, continue to act professionally, and pray I get the hell out soon.

    1. Colette*

      I would talk to your supervisor to clarify when and how you should be interacting with the administrator. Should you tell her when you leave the building? Involve her in impromptu discussions? What should she expect from you, and what should you expect from her?

      1. Underling*

        Hmm. I did check in with him briefly after the errand episode I mentioned. I didn’t center it on the administrator, though– just the issue at hand. I worry that my bringing it up would flag ME as the ‘problem child,’ know what I mean?

        1. Colette*

          That’s why you should focus it in what you should be doing – you’re not complaining about her, you’re trying to make sure you’re doing what you should be doing.

        2. Snoskred*

          When 4 other people in the same office have had issues with this person, then there might be a larger issue here which sometimes does not come to light until someone is willing to stand up and speak out.

          I had a team leader who treated me quite badly and I had thought it was just me and one other person I had seen her bully with my own eyes. I really loved my job and wanted to keep working there. There came a point at which I had to go to my manager about it, because it was actually interfering with my job.

          It turned out almost everyone who worked under this team leader was having issues with her and was raising these issues with the manager. The manager told me they were trying to manage the issue, to be patient, and to vent to her if I needed to. Within a month, that team leader was demoted and moved aside. Karma!

          If you are on your way out anyway, and you feel so inclined, it might not be a bad idea to be the person who stands up and speaks out. Otherwise I would be going with #3.

          With that said, at least you know she doesn’t like you. I find these situations a lot more difficult when the person in question is lovely to your face, and is stabbing you in the back whenever possible. :)

  68. SoBurnedOut*

    How do you folks discreetly interview when you’re still employed and will likely be fired immediately if it’s known that you’re looking to leave? I’m so burned out at my job and am looking, but after three interviews and no offers yet (no rejections, either, though!) I’m not sure how much more time I can take off to sneak out and interview. I still have my PTO but was hoping to bank that to use for my honeymoon in June, in case I’m still working here then. Should I just suck it up and use it for these interviews?

    My boss is insistent that I work in the office to create a “team culture,” even though he’s often in for only part of the day (unpredictably, so I can’t sneak my interviews in that way, either). Curious to hear your thoughts!

    1. Underling*

      I do my best to schedule interviews early in the morning or late in the afternoon and say that they’re “appointments”. If someone probes I lie and say they’re doctor appointments. I’m a terrible liar and hate doing it, but what’s the alternative? If I could schedule the interviews far enough in advance to use PTO I would– it’s only an hour or two here and there.

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        Unfortunately I’m in tech, so often my interviews run an entire day long. I appreciate the thoroughness, but it’s also unsustainable for my job search.

    2. Jennifer*

      I think at this point your priority has to be job hunting rather than your honeymoon. If your only option is to waste honeymoon time on a shot at getting out of there, then you gotta do it.

      Or *cough* call in sick that day or have a lot of “doctor’s appointments,” if you can get away with that.

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        Good point. My job is toxic enough that my priority should be to get out and find greener pastures.

    3. Wolfey*

      SoBurnedOut, you are the one that posted last week about this crazy nonprofit ruining your health, right? Hair falling out, etc? That situation was horrifying to read about. I would pour everything into interviews and get out of there asap. Your honeymoon isn’t as important as your health, and the odds of you getting to enjoy it while still employed there are slim anyway.

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        Yes, that’s me! Thanks for remembering, and you’re absolutely right. We’re having a tiny wedding so it’s been a breeze to put together, and I think I’ve been irrationally thinking that the trip would be some kind of escape/refuge/finish line from what I’m feeling now. My fiancee is flexible about it, and you’re absolutely right that I should pour everything into getting out. I appreciate the nudge to regain perspective.

        1. Dawn*

          Yeah holy cow, just GO! Honeymoons can happen anytime, and imagine how much more you’ll be able to relax and enjoy your newly wedded bliss without the specter of HORRIBLE TERRIBLE JOB hanging over your head the whole time!

        2. Wolfey*

          Get OUT so that you honeymoon is totally a double reward for a totally new life! (Also congrats on getting married!)

    4. Lucy*

      Seconding interviews as early or as late as the hiring manager will allow – are you also able to sneak out during lunch? During my last job search I used:
      “doctor’s appointment”
      “dentist appointment”
      “followup doctor’s appointment” (made it seem like a lady issue so my male boss didn’t ask any questions….)
      “Our heat went out so I need to work from home this morning to let the repair guy in”
      “alarm didn’t go off” (this was a breakfast meeting when I knew I would only be 30 minutes late….I’d also run out of cares to give)
      At this point I had to use a sick day and then a personal day for the final interviews, but I guess it was worth it since I got the job?

    5. Mints*

      Here’s a very specific lie that can cover lots of time off: Say you’re going to volunteer in a medication study for something innocuous (like allergies). The idea is that you take medicine, and then you stay all day at the clinic so they monitor you. You can also say you think you got a placebo so there’s nothing really for you to lie about consistently.

      Alternately, you can also go the route of picking appliances in your house that keep breaking and you need to stay all day for the repair person.

      Your situation sounds horrible. Just keep coming up with excuses and look for greener pastures

  69. Lauren*

    This is probably very context-specific, but I have a question about how to reply to this email. I received a “request for expression of interest” from a federal agency with a number of entry-level positions open. They found my name on a list of previous student employees of the government, since I could potentially be “bridged” into the position without going through the entire external competition procedure. Thousands of people presumably received the email for this reason.

    Anyway, how do I respond? I have a sense of what the job is but since it’s not currently posted, I don’t have a real description. Writing a proper cover letter would be a bit of a challenge for that reason. I was thinking of writing a short email expressing my interest, stating some of my generic skills that would be useful in the position, telling them which locations I would be open to, and attaching a resume. Does that sound about right?

    1. AnotherFed*

      That sounds just fine. If this really was a mass email, then they’re going to get tons of no-responses and a lot of ‘yes’ responses without anything else. Even if they can’t officially take the short email into account, something short and professional will go over very well (professional, but not overly formal/stilted – just be you). This is especially true in entry-level hiring (at least for my agency), where we know we have to train folks on how to do the job, but initiative and good communication skills aren’t usually something we can teach.

  70. Queen of Awkward*

    So last week I posted about an awkward situation where my boss overheard my talking about her (in which I mostly said good things but also that she puts me in mind of a frog, due to the fact I so often see just her eyes peering over a computer monitor, like the way a frog peers out over the surface of the water). She didn’t say anything to me about it and continued treating me the same way but I felt awkward.

    I received comments mostly along the lines that I shouldn’t worry but also that she might consider the frog thing to be negative and that I should be extra careful about what I say in the future…

    Anyway, the situation is largely resolved due to the fact I’ve discovered my boss is basically more amused rather than annoyed/insulted by me. Also, this is a good thing as I apparently tend to say ridiculous things more often than once. I said to my coworker the other day “Wouldn’t it be good if I could wiggle my ears?” (I don’t know where this came from, it didn’t seem as random in my head).

    I heard a smothered laugh behind me from my boss who had come in. She said “You really do say whatever pops into your head don’t you?” at which point I tried to say I never meant to say anything bad or insulting. She said “Don’t dig a hole. Forget about it”.

    I later asked my coworker’s opinion as to whether she thought my boss was irritated by me. She said “I wouldn’t worry”. I think I also ended up having a little extra leeway for being pretty young (+ this is my first non-temp, non-retail job out of uni).

    However, I am paying more attention to make sure nothing I come out with could be considered offensive…

    1. ZSD*

      According to my mom, my great-uncle trained himself to wiggle his ears by sitting in front of a mirror for hours until he figured out the right muscles. So anyway, it’s apparently an achievable goal if this is important to you. :)

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        That’s what I did! The same with raising either eyebrow! I have no idea why, I just thought it would be neat, and I knew it should be possible, so that’s what I did.

        And Queen of Awkward, in some ways you’re lucky. As a child I developed a really strong filter due to being sensitive and being bullied, and it took me a long time to relearn how to even know what I wanted to say without overthinking it. Now I’m a little like you, because I really don’t want to filter myself unless I have to, but usually if it seems at all questionable I give it some thought first.

      3. Cath in Canada*

        I tried this, and thought I was successful. Turns out I was just moving my whole scalp, which made my ears (and hairline, and eyebrows) move along with it. I saw the difference when a friend actually wiggled her ears for me.

        Still working on the single raised eyebrow.

          1. Blue_eyes*

            Ooh, really? I can do the whole scalp moving trick. Now I might just have to try just the ears…Can I put “able to wiggle ears” on my resume?

      4. Queen of Awkward*

        Excellent! I actually have tried practising the ear wiggling at home but then my housemate wanted to know what was taking me so long in the bathroom cause he needed to use the toilet… I can make them move when also doing a broad smile at the same time but I can’t work out how to isolate the muscles.

    2. some things i do for money some things i do for free*

      That’s a great story! Thanks for updating us on it!

      Your boss sounds like a good person.

      One thing, though: you probably should put some thought and effort into handling yourself more seriously when you need to. I don’t mean that you need to be serious all the time. But I think you’ll find there are advantages to being able to turn it on and turn it off.

    3. Snoskred*

      There is one very important life rule that I have –

      1. Never say anything behind someones back that you have not already said to their face.

      This has been an excellent rule for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is, people do not come to me to bitch about other people because I simply will not participate in that kind of thing.

      The frog comment is something which *could* have been utterly hilarious if you said it directly to your boss when she was doing that exact thing, if you had a decent relationship with her. I’ve had bosses where such situations would have become a long running in joke between us. Mind you, those bosses were almost like stand up comedians and virtually every situation was fair game and open for someone in the room to make a comment which would have everyone present doubled over laughing.

      I’ve also had bosses who would have taken such a comment as the hugest insult and made it into a big deal and then treated me badly as a result.

      I have always been someone who speaks first and thinks later. People have made that same comment about me – that I just blurt out what I am thinking. This has never been a good thing for me, so it is something I’ve worked hard to train myself out of and I have been quite successful at it.

      Anyway, just thought I would throw these thoughts out there, they might be useful for you, they might not be. :)

  71. Cubicle Joe*

    About a year after I started working at this Fortune 500 company, an employee was hired who felt the need to taunt me with a variety of names.

    It started with “Sunshine”, and then progressed to “R*tard”, and then “F*ggot”. I repeatedly told her that my name is Joe, and she told me that I needed to lighten up.

    Finally, I said in a calm but assertive voice, “You will never bully me again with those names. They are not true, and even if they were, you don’t talk to me that way.”

    About a week later, I was called into my manager’s office, where an HR rep was also seated. I was told that I was being placed on a disciplinary action, even though I was told just a month earlier that my work was “exemplary”.

    My manager was going out drinking with this bully (and no one else on the team), and I believe that I was retaliated against for standing up to his buddy.

    I completed the disciplinary action, but also filed a protest with the ombudsman office. I remain employed here, the bully leaves me alone, but the environment is tense.

    HR told me that I was “oversensitive” for not wanting to be called those things. What are your thoughts?

    1. Another Ellie*

      Sexual orientation doesn’t happen to be a protected class where you are? I’m angry for you and want you to burn them down….

    2. ZSD*

      What?! Your HR thinks you’re oversensitive for not wanting to be called a r*tard? I’m so sorry you’re in this situation. You are right, and HR is wrong.
      I’m tempted to say that you should start job-searching so you can leave this company. Depending on how the rest of your work life is, though, that might be too drastic.
      But you’re definitely not oversensitive.

    3. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      My thoughts is that they handled this horribly! I would have expected the person who used those words to be put on a disciplinary action, and fired if they did it again after being warned. Your manager sucks and so does your HR.

    4. C Average*

      Ugh. This is so many shades of yuck I don’t even know where to start.

      When you were placed on disciplinary action, what was the behavior you were being punished for? What did they actually say you had done wrong in the documentation? I’m trying to imagine how anyone could spin “defending yourself verbally against inappropriate comments” into “writeup-worthy offense.” And I’ve got nothing.

    5. Underling*

      My jaw literally dropped when I read that you were being placed on disciplinary action. What BS! Is this a larger company– i.e., is there any recourse you can take to appeal the disciplinary action or at least request more information? Wowza.

    6. Partly Cloudy*

      Lawyer up. That is un-be-freaking-leavable. You were absolutely mistreated, first by the bullying itself and then by the disciplinary action. I’m usually one to blame the spiller of the hot coffee vs. advocate suing McDonald’s, but in this case… wow.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Lawyer up to what end? There are no damages and he’s not being mistreated as part of belonging to a protected class.

        I would focus my efforts on getting a new job. It’s unfortunate but I don’t think he has any legal recourse.

        1. Partly Cloudy*

          Eh, you’re right… “wrongly disciplined” =/= “wrongly terminated” so I agree: start job-hunting yesterday.

    8. The IT Manager*

      My thoughts are that that situation is effed up and you were not oversensitive but HR and your manager are overly-incompetent.

      1. Cubicle Joe*

        FWIW, the manager and his manager left the company under mysterious circumstances about a year after my disciplinary action. They were replaced by a woman who takes private employee conversations, and gossips about them at lunch with her girlfriends. The other one is a fellow who regularly comments on his female employees’ bodies.

        Anyway, the action itself had cryptic language such as “coworker says assignments not completed properly”, but no actual examples. The coworker who claimed that? The same one who kept calling me “retard”.

        The good salary and benefits are some consolation, but my friends “on the outside” who also used to work here are hoping to “break me out” with a job at another company. They have nicknamed me “Andy Dufresne”.

        Anyway, thank you for the validation. You work in a bizarre environment like this for so long, that you start to wonder if the way these people act is supposedly normal.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Nope, absolutely NOT normal. In fact, this whole company sounds like complete crap (and with the manager commenting on his employees’ bodies, a lawsuit waiting to happen). Run, run away!

          Also, +a million to your friends for the Shawshank Redemption reference. :D

    10. Dynamic Beige*

      I don’t think HR was ever told the full story. You said nothing wrong to that cow-irker (albeit might have been a little intimidating, depending on your size relative to hers). If the situation were reversed, this woman would be the first one posting on Facebook or whatever what you said and what a jerk you are. You would not be allowed to call her any one of the usual panoply of slurs directed at women even once. Why should she be allowed to do this repeatedly?

      “My manager was going out drinking with this bully (and no one else on the team), and I believe that I was retaliated against for standing up to his buddy.”

      Your male manager is going out drinking with his female subordinate? Alone? Uh, yeah, he’s not standing up for his buddy, he’s swooping in for his girlfriend (or someone he hopes will be his girlfriend/side piece, unless he is not interested in women). I wonder what HR would think of that…

      Unless you love your job beyond these people, I would suggest looking for a transfer or a new job. One day, that relationship (whatever it is) is going to blow up in a spectacular fashion. While it would be somewhat satisfactory to hear about, you probably don’t want to be around to see it happen.

    11. cuppa*

      Yeah, my only thought is that this would NEVER happen where I work (on the you being punished end), and the only advice I have is to find a place where that is true. So unacceptable.

    12. AnotherHRPro*

      Situations like this infuriate me. Saying that you were “oversensitive” is absurd. You do not want to work with these people. It is a good thing that you stood up for yourself as long as you did not threaten anyone. I would have also recommended that your report the behavior to someone. In my experience, bullies act that way with more than one person. You stood up to the bully, but others may not do that.

      One question I have is what was the disciplinary action specifically for? You should have been given something that specifically outlined what the issue was and how your performance or behavior needed to change.

    13. Cubicle Joe*

      One final note . . . On the last day of my probationary period, the HR rep said, “It seems that things have improved; however, we have the right to fire you without warning next time.” She said that, even after I had told her that the accuser had called me those names for 3 years, and that management knew and did nothing about it.

      Global corporation with 20,000 employees. Amazing.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Whatever you do, DON’T let them make you resign. Make them fire you. Even if they try to fight unemployment, you can fight back with this. I hope you documented everything.

      2. Dang*

        Next time someone calls you deragatory names and you stand up for yourself??? OMG. Unbelievable. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with these monsters.It sounds to me like your coworker made up a story because I can’t imagine the HR rep reacting to you that way over your coworker saying awful things.

      3. Nynaeve*

        This is terrible! If anything, you are underreacting. The fact that, when posting about your experiences on an Internet forum, you felt the need to asterisk out the things this person actually called you is incredibly telling. You did nothing wrong. Everyone else, on the other hand… there are no words. Well, there *are* words, but they would be, like, 90% asterisks.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        I guess she wouldn’t mind if this person call her those names? That would be okay with her.

        These people have lost their souls. Time to move on, before you forget what real human beings look like.

  72. girlonfire*

    I’ve recently been promoted (hooray!) and am now going to be managing two people. I’m freaking out a little bit about it. Any advice, or books I should read, to do this as best I can?

    2. jillociraptor*

      Alison’s book IS great (I keep it next to my desk and reference it often)!

      When I started managing people, I also talked with managers I respected, just to hear how they approached their role as a manager. That was super helpful and started lots of mentoring relationships that I maintain to this day.

      It was also helpful to do the StrengthsFinder assessment for myself, AND read the book with all of the themes detailed. Obviously no standardized measure can ever fully depict an individual, but it has helped me a lot when managing up/down/across to have those themes in the back of my mind so I can say, “Ah, I wonder if girlonfire is a Maximizer…that might make me think about her behavior here differently.” It just helps in keeping an open mind to the many ways people approach their work, which becomes extra important when you’re managing them! (It was especially critical for me because the first time I managed someone, they were in the role I had just vacated! It’s really easy to get caught up in “well, when I was in this role…” instead of letting them make it their own.)

    3. Artemesia*

      the biggest shift when you manage is to learn to not DO the job but to supervise. Setting goals, touching base about progress without micromanaging, providing feedback — all not simple to do. So first thing is to gear up on some material on supervision so you have some ideas about being effective in this different role. I found it very difficult when I made that transition — it is always easy to keep doing what you are good at rather than learn the new management skills you need. And supervision means occasionally there will be difficult conversations and conflict — and bad managers avoid this.

  73. LeahC*

    I just had a phone interview! Yay! I prepared fairly well, but yammered a lot and now I’m worried I was too chatty. I am sure I sounded nervous and a mile-a-minute. Hiring managers–how much do you care about how dorky/nervous preliminary phone interviewees sound?
    Now I just have to put it behind me. TGIF!

    1. Dawn*

      Honestly, all the phone interview stuff has been (for me) a way of screening if 1) people sound totally disconnected from their resume and 2) if they sound intelligent, enthused, and pleasant to speak to. I think nervousness is completely, utterly expected, and if a hiring manager dings you for that then you didn’t wanna work there anyway!

    2. Michele*

      I would rather talk to someone who was nervous and excited than to someone who seemed disinterested and demoralized. You can still sound intelligent and nervous. Did you sound intelligent?

      1. LeahC*

        I tried. But I pronounced “subsidized” as “subsoodrized” and corrected myself. Cringe! It was pure nervousness, I mean I know the word, but I am pretty sure I sounded like a dork. An enthusiastic dork, at least.

    3. AnotherFed*

      That’s totally normal – phone interviews can be hard on both ends, and I think just about everyone I’ve conducted both the interviewer and the interviewee have had to correct themselves on something, even if it’s just a simple mispronunciation. Don’t stress, just keep rolling!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      A tangent comment: I have trained a lot of people. I always read nervousness as meaning doing well was important to them. I never gave it more thought than that. There was one person that was not nervous. I was not surprised when she could not master the simplest tasks. She wasn’t nervous, because she did not care in the first place.

  74. Stargazer*

    Lately I’ve been wondering how to be better at trusting my own judgment and not relying on my boss and other higher-ups to catch errors/holes in my work. I edit small magazines that run with our newspaper. I’m responsible for coming up with story ideas and sources, assigning them to writers, and editing and proofing the drafts. I brainstorm ideas with three higher-ups (one of whom is my boss and another is his boss) who then check the drafts before they are sent to the printer. So, I feel a lot more confident in the final product than I would if I were managing and editing them alone, or otherwise being the one who provides the final approval. But I’d like to be much more confident in my role. I’ve been in this industry for almost 10 years so I’ve learned a lot and have a decent grasp on how to succeed here, but I’ve always been better at being a second-in-command, or “worker-bee” type. The responsibility of management or executive roles has never appealed to me and I don’t think I’m cut out for them. But I’d like to take more solid ownership of my work. Any advice?

    1. LeahC*

      My job is very similar to yours and I struggled with the same thing. Have you made any changes to the editing process in your time there? Are there any efficiency-increasing methods you have implemented or have thought about suggesting to your bosses? Any design changes you’d make? Thinking about and/or suggesting improvements to the process or publication as a whole–even if they’re small things–helps build confidence and a sense of ownership, at least for me. And if they get implemented, they look good on a resume for any possible promotions or job searching in the future.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Is your boss supposed to read your work or are you asking her to? Maybe the boss prefers to read your work and that has nothing to do with your competence but is just her preference.

  75. Perpetua*

    Recently I’ve had some quite serious conversations with my bosses about my role as the HR manager, and today I’m feeling quite distressed about it, so any input is greatly appreciated.

    They feel that I haven’t gotten close enough to the people and that employees don’t trust me enough to come to me with their concerns/suggestions/dissatisfaction/etc. It might be a fair assessment, so now I’m trying to think of ways to improve.

    Whether you’re in HR or a “regular” employee, what would be your suggestions on fostering closer relationships? For what it’s worth, we’re a tech company, 60-ish employees, all fairly young (the average is <30).

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Stories and vulnerability. Schedule 1-on-1s with everyone you’re expected to have a relationship with. Say something like “You know, we’ve been working together but we never got the chance to really get to know each other. I’d love to find out more about what brought you to this work, what you want to be doing, and how we can best work together.” Spend 30 minutes just talking to each other – how did you decide to go into HR? What brought you to this company in particular? What do you really love about your work, and where do you feel stuck/unsuccessful? Be genuine, be willing to reveal yourself as imperfect. That’s what connects us to others.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Are you sure you want closer relationships with them? These are people you’re going to have to discipline, fire, etc. These are the ones you might have to talk to about remembering to wear deodorant or present them with evidence of their skeevy internet searches at work. Considering all that, it might be best to maintain a bit of distance.

      1. Partly Cloudy*

        This. I’m an HR Manager also and I was cautioned against being “friends” with employees.

        Also, trust on a professional level is one thing, TMI is another. You don’t want people sharing things you don’t want to know, as an HR person or representative of the company.

    3. Anony-moose*

      I appreciate it when my boss (and her boss, our CEO) actually ask me questions. I am frequently in meetings with one or both of them so we spend a lot of time chit-chatting before calls, on the way to meetings in the car, etc. What has struck me about both of these women is they actually care about their employers. They’ll ask about my weekend, I’ll ask about how their kids are doing. And it’s sincere.

      It means that when our CEO comes bolting out of her office to my desk (which is 8 feet from her door) with panic in her eyes and is brusque about a question she needs answered, or when my manager forgets our meetings and I have to call her and remind her, I feel like I can talk to them like a real person, not a minion.

      And, this may go without saying, but give credit where credit is due. I’m fairly young (28) but I’m good at my job and have been promoted twice by the same manager (and poached by her). I accepted both times because I know she gives me the chance to further my career. She’ll point out our individual successes publicly and cultivates as sense of wanting us to succeed as individuals. In comparison, I had a boss who would take credit for my work and lie about what he had done. I quit that job after six months. As a young woman, I wasn’t about to have my director steal my work and claim it as his own!

    4. Stargazer*

      This may not apply, but is your HR department the type that leans more toward protecting the company or advocating for the employees? I only ask because at my former company, the HR director and chief of staff were the same person, so it created a lot of distrust. That may be what’s at play here. Are you expected to play both roles? Surely there’s a happy medium somewhere, but without more info, I’m not sure your bosses have realistic expectations for your role.

    5. AnotherHRPro*

      Think about the people you trust and why you trust them. Generally it is because you know them and they have not done something to prove the are not worthy of your trust. Apply that same principle. Spend time with people. Learn about their work, the value they bring to the company. Ask what is getting in their way and then when you can, try to fix it. Keep confidences when possible and if you have to break them, be upfront about it and tell them why. You can not be their work friend, but you should strive to be trusted and respected. As an HR professional, we often straddle a line of being an advocate while also mitigating risk to our company. Unlike what many people think, these are not generally in conflict. Everyone who works for a company is there for the company. Their job exists because of the company. In HR we also have the privilege of trying to make the work environment better by building capability and enabling people to work effectively.

    6. Mints*

      I was recently interviewed by HR, about an investigation that was happening lateral to me. I had never met the woman before but she was SUPER nice. She just did a lot of active listening and a lot of thoughtful questions. I didn’t feel that I needed to be friendly with her in order to have a good conversation. I barely know her at all, but I would still feel comfortable bringing up any concerns I have in the future.

      I don’t think you really have to make an effort to get to know them. As long as you practice the conversation skills themselves

  76. jillociraptor*

    I got the unfortunate news this week that my position’s being eliminated at the end of May. I’m bummed out, but also appreciative of how much my manager and her manager have done to make sure I know how valued I was/am and how much they respect my work.

    I’m looking for advice on two things–

    One, if you’ve been laid off before, anything I should be thinking about but might be missing? I’m set on severance, COBRA, and rolling over my retirement account, but anything else that surprised you or you had to work out later? Best case scenario is, I’ll have a new job by the time this one ends and will be able to apply my bonus severance windfall toward other financial priorities, but of course, that might not happen!

    Two, I’m feeling genuinely at peace with this decision. I’m disappointed, of course, but ultimately I trust my boss’s judgment, and I completely see how my role didn’t fit into our new structure. What I’m having trouble with is OTHER people’s reactions. All the sympathy is actually really bumming me out! Is there a polite way to say, “I really appreciate your concern, but, um…can you cool it?”

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I would make sure to use as much of your insurance as you can before you’re in COBRA territory – get new glasses if you need them, a checkup, etc. Get the works done now.

      1. Colette*

        And any other benefits that your company might have – discounts, affiliates, etc.

        Line up references, and update your resume with accomplishments while you can still review what you’ve done.

        And if you think you might need a line of credit to survive, apply for one now.

        1. jillociraptor*

          Ah, thank you! That’s helpful. We have lots of great fringe benefits so it might be good to review those before I lose them!

          1. Colette*

            Yes, I recently got laid off and I’m signed up for my boxing class until December, because my employer paid for fitness classes up to a certain amount per year.

      2. Natalie*

        And if you have an FSA, it’s probably been fully funded already, and you’re allowed to spend all of that money.

    2. AnotherHRPro*

      I am sorry that your position is being eliminated but it is good to hear that your managers are handling it well and that you have come to peace with it. As for advice, depending on how long you have been at your current employer, take a look through your e-mails and see if there are any e-mailed subscriptions that you want to keep. Same for professional websites that you have set up with your work e-mail as you will want to update all of those. If you haven’t already, pull your job history with the company to include titles, dates & salary. Also get copies of all of your past performance reviews, certifications, trainings, etc..

      Dealing with other people” reactions is difficult. As you have come to peace with this transition, I would tell people that. When they tell you how sorry they are, let them know that you will miss everyone but are looking forward to new challenges. Change the conversation from loss to new possibilities and make plans to stay connected.

      Wishing you the very best!

      1. jillociraptor*

        Oh, so smart to save all my performance reviews. I have them locally on my computer.

        I appreciate your recommendations!

    3. Dang*

      So sorry to hear that!

      My dad was just laid off, and I notice that the WAY he framed it helped me not try to overload him with sympathy. He said something like “so, I was laid off. But guess what? That gives me the opportunity to finally look for something else. I had a good run there and now I get to try something new, take some risks if I want to! I’m excited about it.”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If you are able to take a preemptive strike against the sympathy statements- do so. “Although, I am sad that things went this way, I am choosing not to dwell on it.”

      If someone offers sympathy, maybe tell them “hey what I really want is good luck wishes.”

      See if you can cue people as to how best to support you through this.

  77. Leslie Knope's Waffle*

    Any mentoring advice? Our company has started a new mentoring program and I’ve signed up as a mentee.

    1. fposte*

      It might be helpful to think about ways in which you’d like to grow and what your goals are, and identify any specific problems or challenges you’d like to negotiate better.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Are you pretty clear on what career path you think you want, or are you still at the stage where you’re really not sure what you want to do?

      If you’re in the first situation, focus on learning the best way to get where you want to go, all the other ways people have wandered into the career you want, and what are the unofficial requirements to get where you want to go. At a larger company, it can be important to have a grasp on overall strategy – if they’re expanding from teapots into chocolate coffeepots eventually, it may be worth it to pick up some coffee skills along the way. You might find out that something that isn’t a true requirement for the position (like an advanced degree, or a special certification, or experience in handle design) is something most of the competition will have and you’d look underqualified in comparison if you don’t have it.

      If you’re in the second situation, use the opportunity to find out more about what your company and industry does outside of your little piece, learn about your company’s overall long-term business strategy, and what other areas are like, what they require, how people ended up there, what drawbacks they have, and what the mentors find interesting about those other areas.

  78. J.B.*

    Any suggestions for coursework or certificate programs that would help someone transition from a business user with good database knowledge and decent querying skills to a business analyst? Also, are there any free classes out there on writing Oracle SQL? Coursera doesn’t seem to have anything.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’m mainly Microsoft SQL server based but there’s a whole host of courses over at http://www.vtc.com the first few lessons are free to watch so you’ll get an idea of the content and 3 months unlimited access is about $100.

      There are a lot of decent talks here that you can watch from the conference that was on last week in London http://www.sqlbits.com/information/Agenda.aspx

      These blogs are quite good:
      http://www.brentozar.com
      http://www.midnightdba.com

      http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/tutorials/index.html

    2. AT*

      I may be wrong, but doesn’t “Oracle SQL” just mean that you’ve got your certification by taking the Oracle version of the exam? There’s also Microsoft SQL, and there are books that you can find to teach yourself SQL – you’ll still have to pay to take the exam, though.

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        There and ANSI standard whilst the platforms are mostly the same there are some very subtle differences between MS, Oracle and MYSQL some of them are minor like the difference between European Spanish and South American some areas are as different as Spanish and Portuguese.

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      I work with MS SQL server but I hope these links are helpful.

      There are some interesting training courses here http://www.vtc.com you can watch the first few lessons for free to get an idea of what they are like and 3 moths unlimited access is about $100

      There some good talks here from a conference that was on the other week in London

      http://www.sqlbits.com/information/Agenda.aspx (not all the sessions have a recording available)

      I just found this online http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/tutorials/index.html

      These blogs are good but again more focused on MS SQL :
      http://www.brentozar.com
      http://www.midnightdba.com

    5. J.B.*

      Thanks! And to AT, no I don’t have a certification and am not likely to, however I do lots of querying of a proprietary database that is in the Oracle SQL platform. So it’s related to the business analyst concept but more currently relevant.

  79. 2horseygirls*

    Promotional items . . . love ’em or hate’em, they’re everywhere.

    Tell me about the best giveaway you ever got, the one you are still using and dreading the day it stops working. Why is it so useful?

    Then tell me about the promo items that didn’t make it out of the venue – you know, the ones you left on the lunch table, in your hotel room, in the trashcan or gave to the kids when you got home. Why didn’t you like them?

    Thank you in advance for your feedback! Happy weekend, all :)

      1. Katie the Fed*

        ugh, hit enter. Mugs are very useful things. And reusable bags.

        I don’t care for stress balls, key chains, that kind of stuff

    3. Anony-moose*

      Love: water bottles, coffee mugs, key chains that actually work (I had a retractable one that i kept clipped to my purse and I used it until it broke). Little reusable lunch bags (reusies?). Good quality tote bags.

      My reusie, my glasses cleaning cloth, and my keychain are forever my best friends.

      Don’t give me a shirt. I don’t need another badly fitting cheap tshirt. Please don’t give me a shirt.

      1. MaryMary*

        Clothes are bad in general. The only thing worse than a t shirt is a polo. Worse than the polo is a jersey, and worse than the jersey is a tank top. If you give me clothes, I am only going to donate them to the less fortunate.

        1. Anony-moose*

          I have a whole drawer of tshirts I feel too guilty to get rid of. Shelters I’ve worked with. A friend’s business. 5K runs. And on, and on….I really need to just donate them or cut them up and make some sort of guilt-quilt.

        2. Kelly L.*

          Polos make me twitch. I think they’re the single most unflattering shirt shape my body has ever encountered, and that rough thick material!

    4. Christy*

      The best giveaway I ever got was a cloth bag made out of old theatre curtains. It’s a sign you went to a particular conference and there’s a certain cachet to having it.

      Worst? Pieces of paper and crappy pens.

    5. MaryMary*

      This is going to be a real YMMV, because I don’t like mugs (I have a ton already, and they can be awkward to fit into an already full purse or suitcase) and like toys (stress balls, gadgets, puzzles, etc).

      I recomend office supplies: pens, letter openers, post-its. You can always use more, and they’re small and portable.

      1. fposte*

        Post-its are the best. My standards have gotten too picky on tote bags, but I will accept any kind of sticky note.

      2. Mints*

        Sticky notes seem like the best bang for your buck, too. Every sticky is another second of eyeballs. Consumables in general I like because I use it up and don’t feel guilty throwing it away (see: T shirts and mugs)

        1. Windchime*

          Yeah, I love the stickies. I once got a cool little folder (about the size of a 3 X 5 card) full of cool stickies and sticky flags. There might have been notepaper in there, too. I love that thing.

    6. AT*

      A rainmac! A sturdy, waterproof, windproof, comfortable rainmac!

      Pens aplenty…but everyone knows this building eats pens, so even though every rep brings a dozen, we’re always short on them…

      And a box of foamy bee squeezable stress-toys. I wasn’t supposed to tell anyone about those at the time, though, because they had the company’s old logo on them instead of the new logo, and were supposed to have been incinerated. I think I was supposed to have received a coaster.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Stress toy! I bet that’s what my foam cream-puff was supposed to be. It didn’t even occur to me at the time.

        1. AT*

          The mystery is solved! :D

          I think it shows a deep understanding of my industry when reps give us stress toys…

    7. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      I like water bottles & bottle openers. Pens, too. Oh and I’ve had some promotional baggage labels forever because that is the kind of thing I’d never remember to buy on my own.

    8. Apollo Warbucks*

      I love them I just got a big bag of swag from a conference I was at last week.

      Mugs
      Stress balls
      T-shirts
      Pens
      Note books
      USB sticks
      and a rubber duck.

      All useful and practical items

        3. Not So NewReader*

          For a while, I had two rubber ducks. They made me laugh when nothing else did.
          Eventually, they drowned, though.

    9. Kelly L.*

      The good: Tote bags–I will end up using it sometime, guaranteed, no matter how many I already have. Same with mugs. Water bottle. Pens that actually write.

      The very odd: I once ended up with a foam rendition of a puff of some kind of medical cream on wheels. This came from a drug rep who frequented the sandwich shop where I used to work. The wheels were part of the single piece of foam too; it didn’t roll. I didn’t toss it. I kept it for years because it was just so odd. I think it finally vanished the year I moved twice.

      The bad: Pens that don’t write. Knock-off sticky notes that don’t stick. Shirts that come in only one size.

      1. cuppa*

        There was actually one t-shirt that I really loved at a trade show, it had a really funny saying. Then I realized they were all XL and I was swimming in it.
        Ugh, sticky notes that don’t stick are the bane of my existence.
        Good office supplies are always great. I love nice notepads, post-its, and pens. Nice water bottles are awesome, especially when I am thirsty at a conference. I grab a mug once in a blue moon if it’s really big, but otherwise I have a cabinet full of mugs and don’t need any more.
        If you have a collectible theme, people will come back year after year to see what you have.
        Also, nice candy is good.

      2. Finny*

        The foam Puff reminds me of the odd Japanese Lipitor promo I found at a thrift store. It’s a plush robot thing holding a little plush basket.

    10. AVP*

      Crappy pens are the worst, but really nice pens can be awesome. I got one at Starbucks hq that had a nice black pen on one side, highlighter on the other. Perfect weight in my hand, perfect weight on the page, I was so sad when it ran out of ink.

      I also tend to use tote bags, although now I think I have as many as the plastic bags they were supposed to replace.

      My office once sent out fancy boxes of chocolate with our logo printed on the actual pieces of candy – that went over well and we got a lot of calls.

      1. cuppa*

        Highlighters! I don’t know why, but highlighters are always hard to come by here and I love getting one of my own from a tradeshow.
        Bags are good because it is inevitable that someone doesn’t bring a bag and needs something for all of their swag. Also, even if I don’t keep a bag, I can usually find someone who wants it and it tends to live on moreso than other swag. I got a smaller tote bag at a conference once, and it’s amazing how often I use it — for some reason it’s perfect and not a size that you usually see.
        And on a side note, I collect stress balls, so I always grab those, although YMMV.

        1. AVP*

          ohh smaller tote bags are great. I have one that I use for my lunch almost every day, and I got it as a giveaway from a carpet company, of all places.

      2. Windchime*

        When I used to work someplace, a drug rep brought in some Viagra pens that worked great, but you had to press a button first and …… well, we had a lot of fun playing with those pens.

    11. Wolfey*

      I think the main thing is that the promo has to be pleasing and/or useful. A mug/tote/ that looks like something I’d pick for myself (cool logo or design) rather than a ugly “this is my company!” mug (design looks like it came off letterhead & has lots of small boring things going on) will come home with me. If you are going with office supplies I think the burden of cool is higher–that better be a really awesome key chain/pen/staple-remover/etc.

      With pens especially, they actually need to be pleasant to write with–please don’t get ones that ink doesn’t flow from. Thumb drives are useful if they are more than 512 mb. Clothes & scented lotion are always risky. Thermoses are usually great.

      1. cuppa*

        That is a good point. If you give away a Bic pen, only the person who is going to notice is the person who gets it (not knocking Bics). But if you give away something really neat or unique, others are going to notice and say, “that’s cool; where did you get that?”

    12. Margali*

      Ooh, I’m interested in this one too! We have been giving away little keychain flashlights, and those are very popular. I love having one because it makes it so much easier to unlock the door at night! On the other hand, I don’t ever want to see another stress ball, no matter how amusing the shape.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Oh yeah, I have one of those too! I’ve actually only used the flashlight part of it once that I can recall, but I find it amazingly useful for finding my work keys when they’re in my purse, because it’s an obvious shape.

    13. Leslie Knope's Waffle*

      I work in marketing, and in my previous role I used to order a lot of giveaways. Anything useful typically goes over well. I’ve ordered nice padfolios in the past, and people liked them because they could store papers from the conference/meetings in them. Nice pens are good too. I’ve also had success with ice cream scoops (yes, really – for people who complain that it doesn’t promote healthy living, I tell them it’s for frozen yogurt and they smile) and these tabletop golf putting games – people went crazy for them!

      I also like to go with regional items too. For example, I went to a conference last year in Memphis and one table was giving away bottles of rib seasoning from Rendezvous – delicious.

      The bad: santizer wipes (one of our managers referred to them as baby butt wipes), stress balls, and iPhone speakers – a lot of people said they didn’t really amplify the sound very well. Interestingly enough, the year after we gave them away at a specific conference, 10 other tables gave away the same thing at the same conference the following year.

      I know some people really like tote bags/reuseable bags, but not me – I already have a ton of them and unless it’s a super awesome bag, I’m probably going to leave mine in my hotel room.

    14. OriginalEmma*

      A fleece, rain jacket or windbreaker with a pleasing, subtle design or logo on the front breast pocket and no design on the back.

    15. Lore*

      High-quality tote bags; my dad is involved in organizing a conference every year and invites me, and sometimes I got *just* to get the bags. One year they were backpacks, one year gym bags that are big enough to use as overnight bags, etc. I also acquired, from a year or so temping at Radio City, a fleece pullover, a backpack that I still use many years later, some super-nice beer glasses, and a CD discman (this should tell you how long ago it was!). Also small umbrellas. (Not the giant ones; I have one of those and it’s gorgeous and high-end, but not city-friendly.)

      1. Lore*

        Ooh, also, one of my favorite promotional items ever is a cake server. It was a giveaway for the book “The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie.” though, so specific.

    16. Cath in Canada*

      In a former life in marketing, I successfully pushed for getting some custom-made playing cards, which had “Improve your odds with [product]” and a small logo on the back. Most successful giveaway that company ever did – people love them! I would see people playing cards with them in the airport after a major conference. We also gave away poster tubes to bigwig customers – researchers do a lot of poster presentations, and it’s pretty cool to see all those branded poster tubes on planes, in airports, and at the conference itself.

      Worst: pens that stop working after three minutes, branded t-shirts.

    17. Elizabeth West*

      Tote bags are cool. I can’t resist them even if they’re made of cheap material. I use those for grocery bags and toss them when they get nasty.

      I like lanyards. I have a black one that I swiped from Exjob. We had a box of old promos people had picked up at trade shows and I nabbed one. I’ve been wearing my flash drive on it for several years now.

      I also like planners, good metal pens, scratch pads, and pads of sticky notes. Still working my way through a bunch of those from Exjob. :)

    18. Katie the Fed*

      I was just thinking – a promotional item I would LOVE is a good lunch bag. My current one is from Built – it’s a great size and shape – I can fit a lot of things in there and they stay pretty insulated.

    19. acmx*

      I loved the highlighter/un highlighter I received. If you made a mistake highlighting, the other side would correct it.
      I agree with Katie the Fed, a lunch bag might be nice.

    20. AnotherFed*

      The best: lanyards, snap clips/carabiners, post-its, anything with LEDs, and entertaining toys. I think my office has about 20 projectiles, er, stress balls that we occasionally fling over cube walls at each other. They don’t last forever, and the ones in truly bizarre shapes or ones with nice aerodynamics are always a hit with us. Extra bonus points for anything that can be shot out of a binder clip mini-siege weapon.

      The worst: crappy highlighters, folders, keychains with no useful features, non-sticky paper, USB drives (they’re banned at our office).

    21. changing my name for this one*

      We give away pocket sized Constitutions (because we are an educational institution that receives federal funds we must educate people about the US Constitution). These are very popular. We have also had huge success with buttons with funny sayings on them, the university students love to put them on their backpacks).

      The best giveaway away things that I got – once I got a pen that was shaped like a sword to advertise some swashbuckling romance). I loved it and it was stolen from my desk within a week :(

      What I would like to see as a give away – K cups or tea bags, that sort of thing.

    22. some things i do for money some things i do for free*

      Pixar gives away some great stuff at SIGGRAPH, like the Renderman Walking Teapot. One year they had packs of custom Star Wars playing cards. I snagged a few and gave most of them away to friends. I believe I’ve goy one set left, but I’ll be damned if I know where it is :(

      (Something I’ve wondered: AAM has had an affinity for teapots since whenever, but do y’all know that teapots have been a kind of mascot for the field of computer graphics since about 1975?)

  80. kalicat*

    I put in my two weeks 10 days ago. My company is continuing to give me new work today, and it’s seriously jeopardizing my ability to organize all my things and hand off projects to the individuals who have been tasked with taking over my work until a replacement is made. They’ve also asked that I train two staff members in a geospatial software program that I use, which is no small undertaking, since it’s taken me two years to be as competent with it as I am today.

    I sent an email to both my managers last week requesting that no more work be given to me after COB Thursday. HR agreed with me. Today is Friday, and requests for ridiculous busy work continue to come in. My last full day is next Tuesday. What can I tell them?

      1. kalicat*

        That’s what I tried initially, and the requests keep coming. It’s very frustrating, and ultimately will not benefit management as they’ll find themselves without anyone on the team able to take over my duties.

      2. kalicat*

        Also, can I be that curt with my managers? I’ll be relying on them for references later on.

        1. fposte*

          You can always pad it; “I’m afraid since we’ve prioritized my finishing X before my departure I won’t be able to get to this before I leave on Tuesday. It might be something Lucinda could do–would you like me to send this on to her?”

        2. Colette*

          If it’s coming from your manager and you can get it done before you leave, I’d go with “I can take care of this, but that means I won’t have time to do a, b, and c.”

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      Did they reply to your request? If they agreed to it, I would just reply with “Per my conversation with Joe and Mary, I am no longer accepting requests for new work, so that I may focus on transitioning my existing work to Sarah and Mark.” Or something similar, and then copy your managers on the email.

      If your managers are the one requesting the work, I would reply back with something like, “per our conversation last week, I won’t be able to complete this tasks and also effectively train and transition my work to Sarah and Mark.”

      1. kalicat*

        They didn’t reply, no. But, I know HR spoke with each of them about it, and I know they also saw my original email. So it seems they are ignoring my and HR’s requests.

        Next time I get a request, I’m going to use your “per our conversation last week…” advice.

        Thanks!

  81. LongTimeFan*

    Emailed this to Alison as well, but wanted to get everyone else’s opinions just in case this one isn’t published on the site…

    So I will be graduating this year and have started the job search months in advance because I know these things can take a long time. To give you all some context, I’m hoping to go to graduate school within the next few years. I recently found a company that I think would help me perfect my skills and increase my knowledge in the field for which I plan to attend graduate school.

    On their online application system, they have an option to apply for either a FT, PT, or internship position. Ideally I’d apply for a FT position, but I also don’t want to pass up the opportunity to be considered for the PT or internship positions, as getting experience is most important to me.

    Which option would you choose and why?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Apply for FT, but you can mention in your cover letter that you’re available for PT as well.

  82. AnonAnalyst*

    I’ve been waiting for this open thread! I need some advice on how to handle interviews.

    Short version: I will be interviewing candidates next week to fill a similar role to mine, but I’m not in a great place at my job so I’m trying to figure out how to navigate this so that I’m reasonably honest with candidates but not unfairly presenting the company. What’s a reasonable response to questions about growth potential in the role (none) and role clarity (none)? Is there an honest but professional answer, or is the only safe approach to go with the way the company is presenting it to potential candidates?

    More background: The main issue I have with my job is that there’s currently no room for advancement. In theory, we’re a small but growing department (and company) so there should be room for everyone to grow with the company, and this is the way the opportunity is being presented to these candidates. In reality, while the company is growing, the actual growth potential for my position seems to be limited. I’ve been hearing for a year now that I’m ready to take on more responsibility and I’ll be getting new projects, and it has never happened. I’ve finally come to the conclusion that it’s just not going to happen, and am now planning to leave the company to seek more responsibility elsewhere, although probably not until sometime next year.

    My challenge is that, given the background of these candidates and everything that’s been presented to me from colleagues who have already interviewed them, most of them are going to want a role with advancement potential, and I suspect that at least some of them will ask.

    Another issue we have is a complete lack of role clarity, which I understand has already come up in one of these interviews. I honestly have no idea how to answer questions about what specifically their responsibilities would be or how it might be different from a more junior level role on our team.

    So what’s a fair response for these questions? I don’t really want to mislead candidates, but I also don’t want to totally badmouth the company just because I’m currently frustrated in my role and these are two of the main contributing factors.

    If it matters at all, I think higher ups at the company really believe that there is unlimited growth potential here, but from a lower level, I’ve seen it play out and there’s just not; but I don’t think they’re deliberately trying to deceive people. (The role clarity issue is recognized, but there is no sense of urgency to fix it.)

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think you should go with the company line, since you’re representing the company in this role. You don’t have to oversell it, but I’d go with the official company line on those questions.

      1. Jennifer*

        Me too. You’d probably get in trouble for blunt honesty on this one, or even hedged/fudged semi-honesty. If you have some way to be honest that you won’t get caught about, maybe, but overall that probably isn’t an advantage to you to shoot down all the candidates.

    2. cuppa*

      I would go with the company line, but also not go with someone overly ambitious (because that’s just setting them up). There are a lot of people out there who either aren’t particularly interested in moving up, or won’t be looking to move up quickly, and they might be a better fit for this role.

    3. AnonAnalyst*

      Thanks all! That was my inclination, but I remember how hard it was to try to really understand this stuff from the outside during my last job search.

      I want to try to help find the best fit on all sides, so I guess I’ll just have to try to steer them toward other candidates if asked for my opinion. Unfortunately, I think from the way they’re advertising and recruiting for the job it’s going to be hard to find someone who will last in this position (however, that’s also not my problem since I won’t be here long term…)

  83. LillianMcGee*

    Just a quick update: I posted last week about the coffee complainers in my office. We’re getting a Keurig and the ED is pleased. Thanks for all your suggestions!

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I kind of hate to see this because I think Keurigs are such an unnecessary environmental nightmare, but I’m glad it worked out.

      1. Anon E Mouse*

        I can understand that, but there are reusable mesh/some other type of material cups you can use instead of K cups, or you can just run it for the hot water. I do that often for green tea, or I put powdered mix to make cappuccino or hot chocolate. I’m too cheap to buy K-cups frequently. :)

        1. Katie the Fed*

          I think in this company thought they’d be using the K-Cups because the company is going to provide them.

          Sigh :(

    2. 2horseygirls*

      Have you seen the pods from San Francisco Bay Coffee? 97% biodegradable and compostable.

      http://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_8?url=search-alias%3Dgarden&field-keywords=san%20francisco%20bay%20coffee&sprefix=san+fran%2Caps%2C571

      YMMV, but on my office neighbor’s Keurig, I don’t have a problem with the mechanism that pierces the hole in the top of the pod. However, at home with my Hamilton Beech individual/full pot dual machine, I don’t think the filter bottom provides enough … structure?… to hold the pod for the piercer. So I leave a knife in the pod-holder-drawer-type-thing.

      No big deal, but wanted to mention it so you don’t have that “I cannot even manage to operate a Keurig” moment like I did LOL :)

  84. Macedon*

    The Good: I’m currently in a financial position in my life where I can comfortably afford an extended break (of several months) without incurring stress or strain.

    The Bad: I’m unfortunately also in a position where, due to a cocktail of family emergencies, life-threatening situations, international moves and other Drama flick highlights, I’m mentally drained enough to need said break. (I worked throughout the hot mess of my personal affairs, which probably didn’t help my present burn out.)

    The role I’m currently on now is charming, but insufficiently challenging, and I’ve long decided to decline an extension to my contract. My dilemma is: how bad would it look on my record if I were to indulge in my dream break, thus creating a glaring gap in my CV, before pursuing other work options?

      1. Macedon*

        I was thinking three months, to be shamelessly honest.

        I know it sounds long – possibly because it IS long – but my line of work requires regular 10-14-hour days, and I’m afraid that not fully recharging after everything will open me to the risk of another burn-out sooner, rather than later. I’d want to avoid that, since there’s no real going on auto-pilot or ‘hiding’ your exhaustion in my type of role.

        But… three months. Not exactly negligible.

        1. Dawn*

          Honestly in today’s world I think more and more managers aren’t batting an eye at anything shorter than like, a year. With the recession in 2008 a LOT of people got laid off and had trouble finding work, and I think that hiring practices have reflected that.

          My advice is if you need a break for your mental health, take it- make an effort to stay in touch with your contacts during your off-time, and maybe do something to keep your skills current, but otherwise, take the break. When you’re asked why you left your last job, you can say that you needed to take some time to dedicate solely to a family issue, but that’s happily been resolved and you’re now ready to get back to work. You don’t have to tell them that the family issue was “I was getting so burnt out I was going to catch on fire”.

        2. Katie the Fed*

          Personally, I think 3 months is fine, especially if you’re doing interesting things with that time. Like, if someone took 3 months to travel from Cape Town to Cairo, I’d think that was the coolest thing ever. Or volunteer work. So I would just have something to say other than “I was burnt out and needed a break.” That’s fine, but I would say something like “i had some familiy members with health issues who I wanted to spend time with, and caught up on some personal travel I’d been wanting to do”

        3. AnonAnalyst*

          I ended up doing this after I finished my Masters and it seemed like a total non-issue when I started interviewing for jobs afterwards. I got asked a lot of questions about what I had been doing, but everyone who asked seemed fine with the explanation. In my case, I took the time to travel and visit some friends and family I hadn’t seen for awhile, so I just explained that with the pace of school I hadn’t been able to get out to visit and decided to seize the opportunity when it was available.

          I think as long as you’re prepared for the question and it sounds like something you had really wanted to do but couldn’t while you were working, or, like Dawn and Katie the Fed said below, that it was to attend to a family issue that has since resolved, no one will think twice about it.

  85. Anna*

    I could really use some advice.

    I am underemployed in my current position, where I have been for about a year and a half. I have a law degree and last week was offered a job in a role that is typically considered JD-advantage. I had some concerns about the fit and turned it down this week. I am starting to regret it because I feel like I may never find a job as an attorney, and I’d like to get out of my current role. I am considering calling them back and seeing if the position has yet been filled. I got the sense that they were only interviewing one person (me), though they may have gone back to the resumes collected by now.

    I don’t want to take another job where I am immediately trying to find a new opportunity, and I am not sure this position is something I would want to do for more than a year or two. This new role would be a sizable salary increase, and more of a challenge than my current role. Is it worth calling them back to see if the position has been filled? Should I take a job I’m not 100% on to get out of a job I definitely do not like? I know these are broad questions that probably only I can answer for myself, but I would love some feedback from people who aren’t family members or friends.

    1. Underling*

      Is there any harm in calling them and seeing if it’s been filled? Probably not. But you should be prepared for them to turn you down. Whatever your motives were, you turned them down already, and they’ll probably not jump at the opportunity to have an employee who so obviously feels ambivalent about the job. Good luck in your search! It’s definitely a tough time for new attorneys.

  86. CMS*

    I’m always drawing a blank when companies request that they want a witty and interesting cover letter. I’m job searching now and the place a friend told me to try and apply to is hiring for an office coordinator position. I have pretty much all the skills for the job and a decent amount of experience, but they want a cover letter that will catch their eye and will make them be interested in giving me an interview.

    What should I do? I have no freaking clue where to start!

    I also have another issue with my boyfriend pushing me like crazy to get it done TODAY (ugh, he’s getting very annoying about me finding a better paying job because he judges me for having a job that pays $7.40/hr. He thinks I”m not reaching my full potential by working at a low-skill, low-wage job). It’s too much pressure. Plus I’m sure I would hate it as it’s the work of 4 people in one position, plus it’s a tech start-up with so-called ‘big kids’. But if I tell him I don’t want to apply for the job, he’ll claim I’m lazy and not ambitious. Look, I want a better paying job, but I realize that will all the BS that comes out of tech start-ups or small companies, that’s not what I want to do. Yet he won’t listen to me and just tells me to apply and get interviews.

    1. Dawn*

      First of all, your boyfriend sounds like a dick. Judging you? Pushing you to work somewhere you’d hate? Not cool. Very not cool.

      But since this is AAM and not Captain Awkward, just write whatever cover letter you wanna write, following Allison’s advice, and send it in- a well-written cover letter will get their attention a lot better than a quirky one that tells them nothing, no matter what kind of job description they wrote.

    2. OriginalEmma*

      +1. Your boyfriend is being a knob. He needs to respect your decision to apply where you apply for the reasons that’ll make you happy going to work. YOU’RE the one who will be spending 40 hours a week there, not him.

      But on the “how do I write a great cover letter?” note, there are wonderful resources in the archives on AAM. Search for “great cover letter,” and I’m sure you’ll find advice. Think of explaining why you want this job to your friend, how excited you are and why you think you’re a great fit. Make that the guiding principle of your cover letter!

      An aside, did the company specifically say they want witty, interesting and eye catching? Sounds like they’re more interested in gimmicks and that may be something to look out for should you interview with them.

    3. BRR*

      I’m on the opposite side of this and just want to throw in my perspective at least for my situation. Are you applying to a decent number of jobs and putting effort into it? I get frustrated because at times I feel my husband isn’t prioritizing a job search (and for multiple reasons he should be right now) and is half-assing it when he does apply by not really working hard on tailoring his cover letter or resume and not preparing for interviews.

      But if you’re trying and putting a lot of effort into it I would push back. Any job isn’t a good job.

  87. JAL*

    This is more of an annoyed rant:

    I had an outpatient spinal surgery Tuesday and I’m off of work for at least two weeks (I have the ability to telecommute and I will be using that luxury after I get the stitches out). You’d think that I’d be stress free about work, but my pay check from last week was not in my bank account (I have direct deposit). I did not plan on logging into my work email until after my recovery period, but yeah, I had to. Luckily it was an internal error with the system and had nothing to do with me being out on leave. Stress:1 Recovery: 0

    1. Anon E Mouse*

      I’m sorry to hear that, but glad it worked out for you! Until the company I worked with had a real payroll system, checks would come after a holiday, not before. Came as a shocker when my first month in Labor Day rolled around and my check came the Tuesday or Wednesday after the holiday.

  88. Anon E Mouse*

    Hi all – I could really use a little help or some opinions about a job matter.

    Backstory: I’ve been at my current job for 7 months after getting laid off in July 2014. I now work from home in marketing and love it! However, I’m not overly thrilled with the people I work with, especially my boss, the company owner.

    I’ve worked roughly 40 hours – sometimes more – every week and done what I thought was a good job. I’m also salaried and my boss expects us to put in extra work if we need to. However, about two weeks ago, he started to have a big problem with the amount of time I put in because he had seen me post about some side work I do (writing/editing) on LinkedIn and thought I should put more time into work. I’ve done my side work, which maybe amounts to 2-3 hours of work on a busy night, for over three years and built a nice business, which has really taken off this year as far as new projects. He was aware of this business when I came on and only recently seems to have had a problem with it.

    This issue came to a head this week when my coworker forwarded me an email from him where he once again expressed disappointment about me putting only 40.9 hours in. My time isn’t my coworker’s business, so I felt really disrespected he would talk to her about it instead of me. I put 45 hours in the week before that, and 40.9 IS more than 40, but it seems he wants me to put in time like her, which sometimes goes as much as her doing 55 hour weeks. (We are both salaried so no OT pay.) I can’t do 55 hours; I have a family, a toddler I barely see, and the previously mentioned side business he seems to resent. (Side vent – I really like my side business and want to be self employed someday, but even if that doesn’t happen, the extra money for my time is valuable to me.) I’ve been putting in more than 40 and my contract says “at least 40 hours per week.”

    So, finally, to my question: is it bad I’m looking for jobs now? I just started looking casually but was approached by a recruiter out of the blue for another work from home position with some benefits, like health care (current job has no benefits whatsoever; we were supposed to start a 401(k) soon but that still hastn’t happened). I just worry it’s going to look bad if I go from one job, to another, to a third in about a year. I’m hoping the interview today gives me a really good idea of this potential new place (which could lead to more money – always a perk!) and to feel a little less bad about moving on once more, even though the last time wasn’t totally by choice.

    TIA for your input!

      1. Anon E Mouse*

        He’s been on vacation so I haven’t had a chance to approach him about my time again now that he’s talking to my coworker about it, which should be a private issue. He reprimanded me the week before the 45-hour week although that had been a 40 hour week, but I had been dealing with a car issue with my family and he was aware of that. My husband gets up for work in law enforcement at 5 and leaves at 6, so I had to pack all of us up (including toddler) to get him to work for about 2 weeks before we could afford to fix his car.

        I was still doing 40 that week but he wasn’t happy or understanding about it, thus the reprimand, which is what kind of spurred me to look casually for other work. He made comments like, “If you were dealing with this at your last job, what would they do?” and I said, “Well, we did deal with my daughter having an illness and the like, and they were flexible about my time at the office.” You’d think if I worked from home he’d be a little understanding about the fluke week where I work (gasp!) only 40 hours.

        1. Colette*

          Is your work getting done? Can you try talking with him about what work he’d like you to be doing that’s not getting done? In other words, is this a perception problem (you’re not putting in the “right” number of hours) or is there actually work going undone?

          1. Anon E Mouse*

            Work is getting done. The issue I think that was coming up was we have a HUGE site releasing but another client we do paid ads for threw a fit and said she would have to lay employees off since her AdWords campaign wasn’t generating calls to her office, so I had to drop all of my work and work on that. I guess he felt like I should’ve done the hours for that work AND extra for my regular content work, but nothing has fallen behind – we just had client drama which has since been resolved. Maybe he felt like I should’ve had more than 40 hours because of that, but I still completed what I needed to do and what was urgent. In summary, I guess it’s a perception problem. My contract says “at least 40” but he really wants more than 40 each and every week which, again, should’ve been cleared up when I began in August instead of just now finding out my time is a problem in March.

    2. Treena Kravm*

      To answer your question, no it’s not bad at all that you’re looking. In fact, based on what I’m about to say below, I’d recommend it doubly.

      While your boss is (wrongly) focusing on your side business as the “reason” you’re not working more, the real problem is that you’re not working more. He wants you to put in hours similar to your co-worker, because someone (whether co-worker or boss) noticed that she’s working 15 hours/week more than you in the same role. It’s probably abundantly clear to them that you’re doing only the minimum effort and your co-worker is picking up the slack, they just aren’t communicating that effectively. In exempt jobs, it’s not really about the hours, it’s about the work getting done, and distributing that work fairly amongst staff, which isn’t happening right now.

      1. Anon E Mouse*

        I really appreciate your critique, but she and I have separate roles and we manage different programs. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear. I am putting in more time and I do get my work done, but the 15 hours more per week just isn’t possible. I do put in 3-5 hours more per week, and I work sometimes on weekends, so that amount of extra time is all I can manage. I think 45 is fair if you’re only paying for 40.

        My boss has hired some more people but I’m not sure it’s helping with some of our other staff failing to complete their projects. For example, a project manager we work with was supposed to manage pre-launch and post-launch site checks, but my coworker putting in the 15 hours more has been organizing those. She and I have both talked about how we could help each other do more since this third other person dropped the ball on organizing and running the team reviews of the websites, but there’s only so much two people can do when a third person – whose title is “project manager” – stops managing projects. We’re going through a weird growing stage where no one really knows their roles, but hopefully we can sort it out more once he returns from vacation.

        1. fposte*

          Just a note, though: assuming you’re in the US and are an exempt employee, your employee isn’t “only paying for 40.” There’s no inherent hourly expectation in an exempt position. I think they sound ridiculously clock-watchery, but there’s nothing particularly unfair in general in a longer week than 40 hours for exempt employees, and most exempt employees do work more than that.

          1. Anon E Mouse*

            That’s fair, and yes, I’m in the U.S. Maybe I meant “only paying for 40” in terms of the fact that we have no other benefits – just our salary. We were told in December we’d start up a 401(k) in January and still haven’t seen that come about. Not that he’s required to provide benefits, but I do put in more time on average, even if that means a half hour on weekends here or an hour or two at night there. I just feel like the expectations either weren’t laid out or have changed since I started.

        2. Treena Kravm*

          So I think you need to help him re-frame the conversation. Because it’s not really about you putting in more hours, because you’re not even sure what you’re supposed to do with those hours.

          So the next time this comes up (or you bring it up yourself), how about saying, “I’m confused why you want me to be working more hours, is there something I’m not getting done?” And then presumably he’ll mention Lazy Coworker’s projects and you can say you were under the impression that you were responsible for managing your own projects, is he asking you to expand your job/cover Lazy’s job? And that will hopefully force him to at least admit he’s forcing you to cover someone else’s job. And since you’re looking for new jobs anyway (and if you’re comfortable with it) you can tell him you signed up for Job X and now he’s wanting Job X + y, and you’re not really comfortable with that.

          1. Anon E Mouse*

            Thank you for your tips! I think reframing this would be an excellent way to solve the problem. Some of the issues coming up are not just that two of us are picking up for someone else (my coworker moreso than me but I help her when she needs it), but that nothing is delegated out.

            I don’t feel as if he understands all that I’m responsible for since I transitioned into content management a few months ago, and if we were able to talk more about just how many projects I’m doing (we’re launching something like 10 websites in the next 3 weeks, with me managing content, plus I have regular monthly content projects, etc.), he might see that I’m maximizing my time as best I can given what I’m assigned and other things that pop up from time to time.

      2. Anon E Mouse*

        Sorry also if the tone in my response came off as on the defense! I didn’t intend that to be the case if so. But I’m glad you have reaffirmed the fact that me looking isn’t going to be a big harm. (And, hey, getting approached by recruiters must mean I’m doing something right with my career if other people want me.) :)

      3. Colette*

        Putting in more hours does not mean that the coworker is doing more work, though – just that she’s in the building more.

        1. Anon E Mouse*

          She and I work from home. The home office is in another city. All employees self report hours, and we now submit our “clock in” and “clock out” on the time sheet, too. I use to do that for my own benefit anyway, using Notepad as my “timecard.” So, it’s basically an honor system, though my boss could try to compare hours with time stamps of project to do’s in our Project Management software, even though not everything goes through it, like emails.

          1. Karowen*

            Okay so maybe not in the building more, but it’s been talked about frequently on this site that more hours on the time sheet doesn’t necessarily equal better employee/more work being done. Frequently it means the opposite, that they’re slacking off for a good bit of time then having to put in extra time to manage what needs to get done. That may not be what your co-worker is doing but your boss shouldn’t be comparing hours – if he NEEDS to compare you, he should be comparing work accomplished/quality of work.

            As to your question: I definitely think you should be looking for another job. He’s freaking out over what you do in your personal time when it’s none of his business. Would he complain if you were reading during that time? Would he complain if you announced that you hit level whatever in your video game? It’s ridiculous that he thinks he can control that. But, keep in mind that you’ll probably have to stay at your next job for a solid tenure in order to not be a “job hopper,” so it does come with a risk.

            1. Anon E Mouse*

              Those are good points! My time should be my time, for the side business or leisure, and it’s a little daunting to me that it’s starting to feel like if I’m not eating/breathing/living this job every hour I’m awake, then I’m not doing enough. I’ve cried more times about this job in the past few weeks than I have for any role in my life, and it’s not fair for my mental health to constantly feel like I won’t measure up to his standard, which right now seems arbitrary.

              He’s tried justifying before that we should put in more time because we don’t have a commute, but I sort of do; I drive 10 miles round trip to/from the daycare for my daughter since having a toddler at home while working would be next to impossible. I can’t just wake up and hop on the computer like other people. I still have to run on her schedule generally, or at least the daycare’s; they’re only open until 5:30 so at most, I can work until about 5:10 in order to get there on time.

              You might be right about my coworker doing those things. Though she is really responsible, she may be slower at tasks than she lets on, so more hours doesn’t necessarily mean all of those hours were productive. I also don’t know what she is like ethically about time and she could be failing to “clock out” for lunch or something, but that’s between them and wouldn’t involve me.

              1. Blue_eyes*

                I completely agree with Karowen, your boss should be comparing your work, not your hours. You can ask him if there is more work that you need to get done, or if he has any issues with the quality of your work. More hours absolutely does not equal more or better work. My husband had a coworker at his last job who always worked late. But he was very slow at getting his work done (he was a hard worker, just plodding), so he wasn’t actually getting more done.

                1. Anon E Mouse*

                  Thank you for your input! I definitely appreciate you reaffirming to re calibrate the discussion. Hopefully he can admit that the work isn’t distributed very fairly to my coworker and somewhat to myself (although I must admit, she’s his go-to person despite not being at the most senior level in our work group [that role should be reserved to the woman whose work we’ve had to pick up slightly, bringing a lot of projects to move at a glacial pace because she isn’t getting done what she should]) and from there some changes can be made.

            1. Anon E Mouse*

              Yeah, true. I had shared some articles I wrote on LinkedIn, but I guess I shouldn’t do that anymore since my profile is being watched in this way.

  89. Sunflower*

    So I started my job in an online marketing based role which I did for about 5 months before I moved into an event planner role. While I didn’t spend a ton of time in first role, I did get a more than basic grasp on some tools and things like writing copy and understanding tracking systems.

    I’m applying to some marketing jobs and I’m not really sure how to word this on my resume. Right now I have both positions listed all the bullet points listed below. I’m not sure how to communicate I only did the marketing stuff for a few months. I’m hesitant to separate them since it was such a short amount of time and it takes up too much space on my resume!

    Thoughts?

    1. Anon E Mouse*

      Your bullet points could include something like “Basic knowledge of…” and then list your skills (copywriting, project tracking systems or the names of the systems). I don’t think you should worry too much about putting a time period on it. You could always discuss it in depth in the interview.

  90. AnonKlutz*

    Thanks everyone for your encouragement last week. I definitely felt like I couldn’t be legitimately be hurt since I wasn’t in any sort of dangerous position. Luckily, it turns out that while I slammed it pretty good, my knee will heal on it’s own in another 6 weeks or so. I’m doing a lot better now that the ortho dr had me change a few things and start physical therapy, but I can’t wait to get back to the gym.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Good to hear that it will be okay. And yes, it’s possible to get hurt not doing anything major! One of my old skating coaches told us she broke her leg once. Was she doing a double Axel? A throw jump? A lift?

      No, she was in a line of synchronized skaters and she did a regular old stop she’d done a zillion times, caught an edge, fell, and broke her leg. She said, “I was mad because I didn’t even have a good story to go along with it!”

      1. Hlyssande*

        Hey, I sprained my ankle on Wednesday walking across a nice flat road with no bumps, holes, or rocks on it. Right in front of traffic that was turning on, no less. This isn’t uncommon for me, but I haven’t done it in a long time. I used to joke that I can and have rolled an ankle literally standing still. Still true.

        It’s ridiculously easy to hurt yourself doing something mundane.

        My older brother’s friend broke his leg in multiple places with a regular old fall in hockey. He had the full leg cast up to the hip for two months.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I was coming back from my walk and walking up my driveway when I stepped on one of those stupid gumballs from the sweetgum tree. Down I went, and my entire weight went on my left knee. D: I damaged the meniscus and it took over a year before it was back to normal. But that was probably because I slapped a brace on and kept walking/skating. :3

  91. M.*

    13.5 hour manufacturing candles shift from hell. The only reason they let us go home was that 1st shift started to come in. We had to finish packing out three full pallets of candles that 1st shift poured earlier that day to try to meet the work order. The plant head pretty much told them to crank out the candles and that 2nd could finish it up after we were done with our orders for the day. Everyone was tired. We work 10+ hr days on average, most hitting 12 hrs. No one gets paid enough. One agency only pays $7.25/hr refuses to pay additional after the 10 hr scheduled for the day so these people don’t get overtime, so they leave and we pretty much let them because who wants to work for free? Even the production manager who tells us regularly to just suck it up came in around hour 11 and was like “This is so not right.”

    On top of that, machinery keeps breaking down. People are tired. So many work related injuries in the last few days and the production head straight up told our shift manager “I don’t care about safety regulations.” He just wants us to make our numbers. So many people are getting ready to leave, a lot of people are like “I have degrees, why can’t I find anything better than this?”. As soon as I find something that pays more I’m gone.

    Oh and the company is our Chamber of Commerce’s number two worst place to work. And its so bad that people are considering going to the number one worst place to work… they pay $3 more than the place we work at pays their permanent workers.

      1. M.*

        Probably not. The majority of the workers are contracted through temp/staffing agencies, there are three agencies. I work for an agency, and should have been making more for being a low level supervisor than what the agency was paying me. The company told us that we were supposed to get raises for it. The agency said it wasn’t going to happen. I moved to a specialty department this week (Quality Control) as my agency said that specialty departments make more, and am now making a dollar and fifty cents more. Another supervisor took a specialty department position that was available to make more money as well, except he is directly employed by the company and has now been informed that he will only get his raise if they decide he deserves it.

    2. M.*

      Every day I walk in and look over my line (I used to supervise a part of it, now I QC it) and think, “This is shit.” The product is sub-par and we’re expected to make it perfect. The work orders and processes don’t make any sense when put to practical use, and no one gets paid enough to care.

      And I understand that manufacturing means that sometimes we work over time. But 13.5 hrs? Doing the previous shifts work? When they get to leave on time every day? Shift change is never smooth because they just want to get out of there “It’s time for us to leave,” barely time to get questions answered, and you get so much information thrown at you in like 30 seconds.

        1. M.*

          The original owners were great at this company. I worked there in high school and the owners were on the production floor daily, talking to their workers. Temps generally were hired on by the the company and not through an agency. It was minimum wage but you were treated well enough, overtime was something that they generally asked volunteers for. Ten years later, the original owners have been pushed out because they “micromanaged” too much. The people who’ve been there for years say they miss them. It’s no longer a decent place to work.

  92. OfficePrincess*

    When I first found this site, I was horrified by thinking about the resume I had been using. But now, the more resumes I review to hire, the more I realize mine wasn’t that bad (not good, but not horrible). I recognize that I hire for pretty crappy entry level jobs, so I shouldn’t expect too much but wow!

  93. trying to help*

    OK, in this situation: What would you do?

    On Monday someone submitted their resume to a position we currently had advertised but said they wanted to be the assistant to that position (not a position we currently have open). The cover letter is clearly a form one their using for all applications their sending out and in no way specific to our posting. Their skills wouldn’t even qualify them as an assistant, if that was a thing, so we sent a rejection email on Tuesday.

    Today that person applies again and again notes that they’re applying to be the assistant to the posted position.

    Do you reject them again?

    Do you reject them again and note the previous rejection?

    Do you completely ignore the second application?

    On the one hand I want to clue them in to the fact that their doing themselves a real disservice both by the form cover letter and by blindly applying to positions that they’ve applied to. On the other hand I worry this might be borrowing trouble or come across as rude. Thoughts?

    1. Treena Kravm*

      I think it’s really up to you. If you check a box to reject them, I would do it. But this person is so clearly out of whack that I doubt anything you say would help.

    2. Jennifer*

      I’d probably ignore all of those applications and reject them again.

      I’m not sure if it’s worth the trouble to you to tell them what they’re doing wrong if they already aren’t listening.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      They aren’t worried about appearing troublesome or rude to you.

      But my real thought is- is this something you want to put much energy into?

  94. Alex Holliday*

    Forced into a new job role?

    One of our most senior managers is leaving the company (mid size to large). He oversaw one of our product’s lines, in which I used to work in before transitioning into a new job role last year. Keep in mind, this senior manager and I are on the same “overall” team (there are 2 teams total) and we are led by one Director.

    With his departure, I have become the “de facto” to lead and manage that product line. I do not want to lead or manage this product line as I am currently happy with my new job role. I am also still young and developing my own career. However, our Director said there is “no one else” to fill this job role until a replacement is found (which I know will take at least 6 months to a year before I can comfortably hand off the product line without major breakdowns). In lieu of that, I still have to maintain my new job’s responsibilities.

    Am I being ungrateful? Should I just suck it up and see it as a “first world” problem?

    There is no pay increase from what I know, but was told I could pick my senior manager’s replacement. I don’t want to come off as being annoying, uncommitted, or unwilling to do this. But the whole “transition” has me stressed out. There were several reasons why I left my old team in the first place, and now I feel forced back into it.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      My advice is to suck it up for now, and if you really don’t like it, start looking for another job elsewhere. This company has seen fit to change the scope of your job by a lot, and give you a lot more responsibility without any increase in pay. Now it’s possible that this will be handled well, and they’ll use it as a proving ground and promote you either after you settle in, or at least once the replacement is hired. But lots of companies just see a vacancy as a way to cut payroll and increase profits, and if yours is one of them, all you can do is ramp up your job search as fast as possible. If you do that, though, you probably want to stay employed in the meantime, hence my advice.

    2. nof*

      I would have a conversation about what’s going to be taken off your plate in order to accommodate the new work. Something has to give, especially if the process is going to last a year. That may give you a better idea of how seriously they are taking it. If they don’t have a real plan for managing your workload, then I would start job searching. If seem sincere about working with you, then I would consider sticking it out.

  95. Student*

    I’m hiring someone for the first time. I didn’t expect it to be easy, but I really feel lost about it.

    Right now, the specific problem is that we didn’t get any applicants who are outstanding skills fits for the job we were hoping to fill. We are looking at two candidates. One who is closer on skills, but we don’t know much about him yet. Other is relatively far away from the skills I want, but he’s got a reputation for being brilliant from people we have a good working relationship with.

    The skills I’m looking for involve working with serious health hazards. I kind of gravitate towards hiring the guy who’s closer on skills because he’s got more practical experience working with the hazards, whereas the brilliant guy has no real experience with the hazardous side of the job. On the other hand, I like the idea of hiring brilliant people to work with, on the theory that he can learn what he needs to but brilliance is hard to train. I worry about this decision; I don’t know if skills guy is brilliant or not, and brilliant guy has some personality/fit/culture downsides that are already apparent that will make him challenging to work with.

    1. Dawn*

      “Brilliant guy has some personality/fit/culture downsides that are already apparent that will make him challenging to work with” = nope nope nope nope nope. Especially if he’s going to be working with hazardous stuff. You DO NOT want someone coming in going “Oh I don’t have to follow all the PPE steps for working with Ebola, I’ve done it hundreds of times! I don’t need two pairs of gloves, they’re such a pain to take off! I don’t have to go through the whole decontamination procedure, I was only in the isolation room for ten minutes!” I used to work in a hospital lab and the people like this always caused the worst problems!

      Honestly, if you don’t like the crop of candidates you have this time around, can you perhaps re-write the job description and post it again? No shame in rejecting everyone if no one is what you want.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        “Brilliant guy has some personality/fit/culture downsides that are already apparent that will make him challenging to work with” = nope nope nope nope nope.

        This x 1000

    2. Jennifer*

      Have you actually interviewed them yet? I have the impression that actually meeting them and getting to know them (it sounds like you don’t know them except by resume/reputation) would help you decide whether or not you trust Mr. Brilliant to figure out how to deal with health hazards (if he’s brilliant but kinda in the clouds most of the time) or if you like Mr. Skills at all.

    3. Amtelope*

      “Brilliant” + lack of actual skills + personality/fit culture downsides sounds like a nightmare hire to me. I’d much rather have someone who can competently do the job than someone who’s “so smart!” but lacks practical skills and is difficult to work with.

    4. fposte*

      Is there option #3, rewriting the ad and reposting? It sounds like you may not have gotten the pool you need. (If salary was included in the ad, this may be an indication it’s too low–but you probably don’t have the power to change that.)

    5. TL -*

      Hire for skills when it comes to hazards! Some positions you can teach skills and it’s nbd, and others you really want somebody with common sense for your field.

      Hazard positions, you want common sense.

  96. The Cosmic Avenger*

    So I just finished giving a reference for one of my former employees. I just hope I didn’t talk her up too much! She really is one of the nicest people I’ve ever worked with, and one of the best at dealing with people who need help. I guess if I have a question, it’s: is it possible to sound like you’re a paid shill when you rave about someone like that?

    1. BRR*

      Not really. Unless it’s really over the top it just sounds like they’re a great employee.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      A former boss gave me a good reference. As I was talking to the interviewer something came up that I said something really positive about former boss. The interviewer was impressed that we were both speaking highly of each other. She felt that said something about me. I got the job. (I never even thought about this when I made the comment about former boss. I was just being sincere. So I was surprised by how she connected the dots there.)

  97. Molly*

    I know this is such an over asked question so I’m more looking for encouraging stories! I had a second round finalist interview for my dream job one week ago and haven’t heard anything yet. They were pretty quick to offer me a second interview, so I’m feeling discouraged that I haven’t heard back yet, although I don’t know their timeline as last time I was in the office I met with the rest of their team, not the hiring managers (I met with them for my first round).

    So if anyone would like to share a time they waited quite a while for an offer, I would appreciate it! The position is actually the level above what I applied for and I received an extremely encouraging email from someone who is more senior than the hiring managers but it is not ultimately her decision.

    1. Dawn*

      Two Mondays ago I sent a 1-week post interview follow up and got an email back that said “We’re definitely interested in utilizing your skills and talents. I’ll be in touch Wednesday or Thursday to talk more”. Wednesday passes- nothing. Thursday was a snow day- nothing. Friday passes- nothing. Monday passes- nothing. Tuesday I sent an email that said “Hey, are you still interested” and I get a phone call on Tuesday night saying I got the job can I come in on Thursday to sign paperwork. I start this job next Wednesday!

      So chin up! Remember that hiring manager time is way, way different than interviewee time!

      1. Molly*

        Thank you Dawn! I so appreciate this, just this small bit of encouragement really made me smile. Congratulations on your new role that is wonderful!

    2. BRR*

      First please be weary of “dream job.”

      I had one that did a phone interview, I could tell I did well. They said “wow” (in a good way) to multiple answers. Three months later they called to ask if I was still interested, and that there was a hold up. They said they were still interested and wanted to know if I was also still interested. I say yes but they didn’t know the timeline for next steps. I think because it took so long they just needed to know who was still available. Another month later they called to try and schedule and in person interview but by then I had accepted another offer. 6 months later I got an email that they had filled the role.

      Have you ever been on the other side of hiring? Things can be held up for so many reasons.

  98. Amy*

    How do you define “delegating?” Is it giving someone a task that you *should* be doing yourself? Or something different?

    1. Colette*

      No, it’s giving someone work that you should not do yourself (but you are responsible for making sure it happens).

      For example. If I were in charge of mailing out a brochure, I might have someone create the content, and someone else print and fold the brochures, and someone stuff envelopes, and someone else mail them – but if they don’t get to the intended recipient, it’s my problem

    2. Sadsack*

      It is giving a task to someone else, period. I don’t think it is necessarily a task that the person delegating *should* be doing, but a task that person needs someone else to do. Normally managers delegate tasks to people who report to them, or a team lead will delegate responsibilities to members of the project team. In a partnership, I think people just decide how to split up the work. Seems like you are trying to get at something deeper here than the dictionary definition.

    3. Amtelope*

      It’s giving someone work that they’re supposed to help you by doing. What’s the context for your question? If someone is trying to “delegate” work they should be getting done themselves, that’s a problem.

      1. Amy*

        A coworker told me that’s what delegating is supposed to be. It seemed to be said with a bit of a sneer, as if it is a sign of weakness. I disagree but I didn’t have a response so I just kept quiet. I wondered what readers here would say.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes I have given tasks that I should have been doing myself to other people. The two main reasons were: 1) training purposes and I made sure they understood I was taking responsibility for their work because they were training on it; or 2) there was a MUCH larger problem that I absolutely had to do myself and I could not get to the other task.

      In both cases, I make sure I am available to fill in any gaps that might come up.

  99. It's tired, and I'm late*

    [regular commenter using a new “for when I really need to be anonymous” handle].

    I’m having some problems with a colleague. We work on interrelated projects that have an area of overlap: both individual projects depend on a common process, and getting the process done depends on having context from both projects. Her project has had four project managers in three years; I’ve been on my project for the full three years it’s been running, and haven’t had any problems with any of the other PMs. But since this colleague took over, there have been multiple issues.

    A few months ago, there was a sub-project that was connected to both big projects, and we both wanted to work on it. Our supervisor came up with a way to assign different parts of the first phase of the sub-project to each of us so that we both got to be involved; we were both happy with his solution. But then she gave me two weeks warning that she was going to be away on a pre-planned trip for the three weeks leading up to the phase deadline, including over the deadline itself, and that I was going to have to do a big chunk of her part of the work. She claimed that she’d thought everything would be done by the time she left; we rarely get one of these sub-projects completed within three hours of the deadline, let alone three weeks, so she’s either a) dangerously naive or b) lying. She’d booked the trip months before, but hadn’t told me. My best guess: she thought that if she said up front that she was going to be away for the phase I deadline, she wouldn’t have been assigned to any part of phase II, which is the really meaty and fun part.

    Anyway I did the rest of her part as well as mine, working weekends to get everything done, and fixing some problems she’d caused along the way (she’d asked for documents in the wrong format, so I had to ask those people to re-do their work in the correct format, with additional content). I let both her and our manager know that I wasn’t happy with the way things worked out – it would have been much easier to plan if I’d known from the start that I was going to be responsible for the entire thing.

    Last week, colleague announced in a team meeting, in front of very senior managers, that she’d done an action item that had been publicly assigned to me not three hours earlier. When I talked to her about it afterwards, she claimed not to have known that it was assigned to me, despite it being in the minutes from that earlier meeting. The task was very clearly related to my project, and had nothing to do with the overlap area at all.

    This week, I started hearing about meetings that she called that I should have been at, and emails she sent that I should have been copied on (they cover the overlap between our projects, and we both have context from our projects that was relevant to solving the problems that had come up. Someone from another department came to my desk to let me know what was going on, because he thought it was obvious that I should have been on the emails and at the meeting). I let my colleague know that I was going to attend one of these meetings, and suggested that we get together afterwards to clarify responsibilities.

    Colleague showed up late and under-prepared for the meeting. She arrived with one copy of a document for a meeting that involved ten people, and asked me to make copies for her!

    Anyway, we talked afterwards about how we both bring context to this overlap area that the other doesn’t have, and I got her to agree that we both need to be copied on every email and at least invited to every meeting that touches on this overlap. At this point she suggested an alternative solution – that she take over my project. Which I’m very invested in and have contributed a lot to. I said no, obviously.

    I brought all this up in my one-on-one meeting with my manager yesterday. I said I thought everything had been handled, but wanted to make him aware. He acknowledged that these recent issues were a continuation of the pattern started with her disappearing on me during the sub-project deadline. I expressed concern that someone who clearly wants to take over my project is also cutting me out of meetings and emails, and he reassured me that there’s absolutely no question of me not seeing this project through to the end, which will be another three years.

    I’m so agitated about this (although I impressed myself with how calm and neutral I managed to be during my conversation with the colleague and then with my manager). The one silver lining is that I’d been approaching Bitch Eating Crackers status with this person for a while, based on annoying personality traits such as asking me lots of personal questions about my diet and weight; at least now I feel like I have more valid reasons to have a problem with her!

    Any advice?

      1. It's tired, and I'm late*

        Thanks! I hope so. This stuff doesn’t come naturally, but I took a deep breath, thought “What Would Alison Do?” before both conversations, and dealt with it. I found this blog when I was hired into my current role, which is the first I’ve held that comes with a potential internal promotion path to management. I came looking for advice for managers, and instead I’ve found advice that’s made me a better employee!

    3. Steve G*

      I don’t have any real advice, I am just really surprised that this is going on. Isn’t it great that she gets to effectively skip the boring parts of her project and only needs to focus on the fun and meaty part at the end? I guess you just have to become super assertive and also super aware of what is going on around you, and actively shoot down any attempt of her to work on your project and/or active like the overlap only has to do with her.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I could be misunderstanding your setting, if so, please ignore.

      It looks like you and Jane have several projects- A, B, C and D. Jane might be interested in having the project assigned to her to do alone. I have no clue if this is even possible, for your setting, but maybe the boss can divide the work differently such as you do A and B and Jane works on C and D. Conversely, maybe you could do A, Jane could do B and you could share C and D together.

      My second thought goes in the opposite direction- the job is that Jane must work with you and she seems to have difficulty with that. If she truly cannot work with you, then she cannot fulfill the requirements of her position. Keep the boss informed if there is no improvement or if things get worse. I would document what I am seeing and keep that document (or a copy of it) at home.

  100. Does my manager think I'm a moron?*

    This happened to me a few weeks ago, but I’m wondering if this is a clear sign that my boss thinks I’m an idiot.

    I’m pretty new at my job and about a month ago I was asked to print something from a power point presentation and put it on display for everyone. I wasn’t sure where to find the power point (was it on the shared server? was it in a google share site?) so I asked my manager where to find it and he told me and THEN he told me to make sure I just print the ONE page of the power point I need! This happened almost a MONTH ago, but I’ve been worried ever since that my manager thinks I’m an absolute moron… who would print an entire power point presentation for one slide. Should I be worried about this? I think about this exchange EVERY TIME we interact now.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Nope, not unless you’ve done it before. Otherwise, they probably said this because 1) your manager has done this before, or 2) they had someone else do this, and it was such a pain for them to fix (sifting through the printouts for the one page) that they REALLY did not want it to happen again.

      I know the feeling though, I’ve obsessed over times when I thought someone thought something horrible about me, but 90% of the time I’m wrong, and 9.99% of the time it’s the other person projecting.

    2. Colette*

      You’re reading a lot into a casual remark. Your manager was probably just trying to make sure that you understood the task was to display one page, not the whole doc.

    3. cuppa*

      Let it go. Some people just do this, and it has no reflection of your intelligence. Since you’re new, he may just want to make sure that you knew, or he wasn’t sure if he explained it clearly, or the last person in your position did it wrong, or he could just be overly cautious ( I guarantee this won’t be the first time this happens in life). Unless you’ve done something specific that would warrant this, I would absolutely let it go and not give another thought to it.

    4. Dawn*

      Oh my gosh, this was so me at my last job. My manager had a habit of being pretty nit-picky with details (in a good way) but sometimes it’d come out as making comments on really super basic stuff- think like if I asked where the bathroom was and she’d say “its down the hall, second door on the right. It’s the one that says “Women”. If you go in the room with urinals, you’re in the wrong bathroom.” For the longest time I thought she thought I was stupid, but then I realized that she just works that way- to her, as a manager, it’s easier to just say everything that you think the other person needs to know even if you’re pretty sure they already know it, instead of letting things go unsaid and potentially missed.

    5. Amy*

      Your self-esteem needs to come from a deeper place than this. One exchange or seeming failure is not an existential critique of the entirety of your being. Why do you feel you should be perfect so new in a job?

      1. Does my manager think I'm a moron?*

        Well, I guess because this is my first real job in my field and I want my contract to be renewed for the upcoming year? I ‘m worried that if my manager thinks I’m an idiot this won’t happen and I’ll have to go back to job searching. Would I even get a good reference if he thinks I’m an idiot? This may be silly, but these thoughts bother me.

        1. Amy*

          Do you decide that people are idiots based on one experience where they didn’t know about something they did for the first time? If you don’t, why would he?

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This. The problem could be NOT what your boss thinks of you, but what YOU think of you.

            I have a job in an area that’s new to me. Granted, I have work experience under my belt but I have never done work like this before. Once in a while, my boss (who I love) will over-explain something to me. For the first 6-8 months, I just let her do that. And things would come up where I clearly misunderstood. But now it’s been a couple years and I feel free to say to her, “Oh, I get that part, the part that I am worried about is over here.”

            There is a “getting to know you phase”. Remember just because you figured out “if X then do Y” does not mean everyone can figure that out. Once your boss gets used to your habits, she will see where you need further explanation and where you do not need more explanation.

            You asked a question. She answered you. It’s not wrong to ask questions. She’s fine with it. Be gentle with yourself.

        2. Amy*

          p.s. how long have you been in this position? Do you have scheduled evaluations? Has your boss given you any feedback?

          If he’s not giving you feedback that you’re entitled to, that’s on him. But…. even if he doesn’t, you’re not giving him enough credit. If he has experience in the field and has supervised other newbies, he will have a nuanced view of your strengths and weaknesses as he gets to know you. It’s not a black-or-white thing. Nobody is perfect. Nobody is a total idiot. If you regularly think in those terms and your self-esteem hangs on the idea that everyone else looks at you in black-or-white, you should consider therapy. I’m serious. This kind of thinking will mess you up more than making minor mistakes at work.

        3. Steve G*

          I wouldn’t worry about your contract not being renewed, at 5 of the 6 “real jobs” I’ve had, only 1 fired people “easily,” by which I mean that people were sometimes confused about why the person was let go. But at the other 5, firing came only after months or years of mistakes and ineffectiveness and usually after some awkward moments, like not knowing much about their job when the CEO visits and grills everyone, or getting in trouble for trying to delegate core parts of their job, or being in sales but never selling anything, or abusing the flextime option, or doing freelance work during the day…………

    6. beckythetechie*

      As a former print shop employee, that level of detail is going to save someone’s keister down the line one day. I was shocked at the number of customers I had over time who came in, handed or threw me a flash drive and said “It’s the power point, the stuff about handle attachment point weakness,” and stood there tapping their foot while poking at their phone and answered every question I had to ask to get the thing done right with “I don’t know, just print it.”

      Sometimes, oversimplifying is the safer bet regardless of what you think of the employee individually, and not a reflection on anyone’s skill.

    7. AVP*

      He doesn’t think you’re an idiot…he probably just made the same mistake himself in the past, or had seen someone else make it, and thought it would be useful to point out. My manager does this all the time and I have to say, once or twice he really has pointed out a dumb error that I was thisclose to committing.

  101. Sadsack*

    Anyone ever receive any LinkedIn spam that reads more like a dating profile than a professional profile? I received an invite to connect by someone named “anthony blair” (no caps in his profile name). I looked at his Linked In profile and found the following summary:

    I am a gentle man. A lot of things rolled up into a very nice gentle man package. I can be very very funny and actually I act younger than my years say I am. I love kids and animals very much. Sincere, loyal, affectionate, conservative, sometimes shy but can be outgoing when need be. Hard worker yet I do enjoy down time. I don’t feel my age at all yet. I do like to joke around and I can be humorous at times. I am very well balanced in many areas of my life except one. I tend to focus on others needs before my own. I do prefer quite settings and prefer to be in a small circle of people. I enjoy Nature as it’s a reflection of Gods character and creativeness…

    Today I tried to go back to his page to link it here for you all but it is gone. Go figure. I googled a phrase out of his above summary and got hits on a Linke In profile for Tony Blair Blair, and also a google hit for Match.com. I couldn’t open it because it is blocked at my office.

    I am sharing this because I got a good laugh out of it. No, I did not connect with anthony…he’s still out there, ladies!

    1. Beth Anne*

      Yes! I feel like LinkedIn has gotten really spammy recently. I know someone else that got hit on on linkedin once and was really thrown off.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Wasn’t there a thread about how people are using LinkedIn like a dating site now? I haven’t gotten one of those yet, but I also haven’t logged into LI in months.

  102. LPBB*

    I keep meaning to post this question on the Open Thread and then getting distracted and forgetting! Anyway, I need some advice on how to salvage a hopefully not-too-burned bridge.

    In 2012 I accepted a project-based, temporary job inventorying a historic teapot collection of a local business that was winding down operations. I did this inventory on behalf of a local teapot museum, and was recommended for the position by the museum’s curator, but I was employed by the company that owned the teapot collection. I got along well with the guy that I worked for and he was very pleased with my work. He also knew that I was looking for full-time work while I was working for him.

    In July 2013 we wrapped up 95% of the project and sent the collection off to the museum. The 5% that was left was a very small cups and saucers collection that was earmarked to go to a different museum. He is a very nice guy and wanted to help me out, so he and I agreed that I would start coming in once a week to work on various projects related to winding down the business. This way I could go on unemployment, but still be considered “employed” and look better to prospective employers. Lo and behold, I was suddenly offered a 3 month contract more in line with my career interests. The job started pretty much immediately. I probably could have pushed the start date off by a week, but I didn’t. Here is where the potential bridge burning comes in.

    I am a terrible people pleaser. If I think that I might possibly inconvenience someone or disappoint someone, I get terribly, terribly stressed out. I also struggle with anxiety, like everybody else these days!, and one thing that was ridiculously triggering at the time was email. (Thanks to therapy and HabitRPG I have conquered that trigger.) So anyway, because I was on vacation at the time that I accepted the contract job, I sent him an email to let him know that I had accepted the contract job and would be starting immediately, and then avoided his response until I couldn’t possibly avoid it any longer. We had a pleasant phone conversation and he told me to follow up with him when that contract ended, because he could probably offer me a month or two of work.

    Well, that three month contract has turned into 20+ months and I never followed up with him. I’m starting my job search up again in earnest and would really like to have him as a reference. I’m not sure what the best to go about re-establishing contact is. Emailing him directly? Connecting with him on LinkedIN? Honestly, I’m not sure if the contact information I have is still valid, so that’s probably where I should start. Should I address disappearing the way that I did and if so how? Would you mentally write off someone that just kinda disappeared like that?

    I feel like I’m overthinking and I know that I’m struggling with this because of my own issues. I feel very very guilty about the way I left things. I organized everything and left all the documentation for the last donation and I cleaned up and labeled everything in the office I had been using before I left, but I still guilty. I’m also very embarrassed that I let my anxieties take hold and not happy with the way I handled our last communications. I’m also always convinced that because I know the reasons why I acted the way that I did, other people will magically divine what was going on in my head. So in my mind, he absolutely knows that I was a neurotic, anxious mess.

    Tl;dr: The core of my question is how to re-establish contact with a professional contact after essentially disappearing on them. Any advice is gratefully accepted!

    1. Dawn*

      “We had a pleasant phone conversation and he told me to follow up with him when that contract ended, because he could probably offer me a month or two of work.”

      So… your contract is ending now (because you’re choosing to end it) and you’re taking him up on his earlier offer! This guy sounds nice and willing to help you out. Just send a quick email, maybe say hey long time no talk, and go from there. I promise he’s not worked up about not hearing from you on his end- if anything, he’ll probably be very happy to hear from you after so long!

    2. Amethsyt*

      I would try emailing him directly first. He sounds like a nice person who would understand the situation.

      I would also like to thank you for your mention of HabitRPG because it looks really interesting and I had never heard of it before.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      I don’t think you “essentially disappeared” on him. You notified him that you would need to wrap up your mutual project early, you had a final phone conversation, you both moved on. He probably assumes something pretty close to the truth – the contract job you accepted took you in an unexpected direction.

      I would simply send him an email along the lines of “Hi, Joe! Sorry for falling out of touch – that three month contract job just kept getting extended! It looks like it will be winding down for real in X months, though, so I’ll be job searching in earnest shortly. Would you be open to being a reference for me, based on the work we did on Project Teapot Archive?”

    4. fposte*

      “I’m also very embarrassed that I let my anxieties take hold and not happy with the way I handled our last communications.”

      Aaaand they’re trying to take hold now too :-). There was nothing wrong with your last communication, and none of this was a big deal.

      Sometimes anxieties fail to take into consideration the fact that we’re really not that important in most people’s lives. This is an example. You’ve given this more thought in your post than he’s given it in the past two years.

    5. LPBB*

      Thanks everybody for your replies! I had the feeling that I was making a mountain out of a molehill and you’ve helped me get one step closer to finally accepting it.

  103. Anon369*

    Hello there! I have a question I’d love thoughts on. . .how I can improve my position in middle management. I’m a middle manager in a transaction-oriented business (think something like mortgage lending). We’re a relatively small organization so there isn’t a strict hierarchy. I have a really great team that doesn’t need a lot of guidance at this point. I have a manager who frequently goes directly to my team for information. I don’t have official authority to approve things – my manager does – so the sales team we work with will often go straight to my manager, who then goes to the person on my team doing the work (or vice versa). If I mention this, it improves briefly but then goes back to status quo. I am well compensated so I believe I’m adding value and I try to stay out of my team’s way as much as possible (after being a micromanager for a while), but as a result, I feel left out a lot of the time and like I’m chasing down information from above/below instead of being on top of things (which looks bad when my manager’s boss asks ME for information). I’m not in a position to change jobs right now. What strategies might I use to feel more connected (or is this just how management is)?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “If I mention this, it improves briefly but then goes back to status quo. ”

      I know this gets tiring/annoying to keep chasing this. I suggest go in one last time, tell the boss that you both have had this conversation a few times and each time things regressed. Tell him you would like a new plan for a sustainable change that will be able to remain in place.

      This really sounds more like a “why am I here, when they circumvent me?” type of question. Which I can understand not wanting to point that out. What I have said in the past is “This is part of the job that you PAY me to do, let me do what you are paying me for.” Tone of voice should be soft and sound like you are just appealing to reason.

      1. Anon369*

        Thanks. You’ve hit it on the head – I do wonder why they need me! My role is kind of “insurance policy”, but it isn’t the most fulfilling role for me. Plus, the better my team does (yay!), the less I’m needed.

  104. Dawn*

    Happy Friday news- I cut all ties with a toxic client today, AND I start a new contract-to-hire on Wednesday for a full time position that is EXACTLY where I want to go next in my career. Salary is great, location is great, company is great, and they are very excited to have me on board. After 6 months of looking after getting axed in a massive (unexpected) layoff, this is great news.

    To everyone out there still looking: your ship will come in, I promise!

  105. Tiffany*

    If I am 99% certain that I’m going to get fired when I get back from vacation in a couple of weeks, is it better to go ahead and quit? I realize there wouldn’t be much of a different explanation when interviewing, but it means I can answer ‘no’ to the ‘were you fired’ question. I’m already considering quitting anyways, because I graduate college in a couple months and will be relocating to a new state a few weeks later. I’ve got enough $ saved up that I can pay my bills for the next few months and quitting my PT job would free up my weekends to be able to relax and focus on everything else I have going on. My supervisor let me know today that it’s very likely he’s going to have to fire me because HR wants me gone (tHR wrote me up for something that I didn’t do because they were given the wrong information. I’ve been fighting it. They want me gone. They’ll call it insubordination and be done with me.)

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I would quit as long as you’re sure you won’t need to fight for unemployment benefits. Then you can work out a timeline and it’ll be less stress on everyone.

      Your supervisor sounds spineless.

      1. Tiffany*

        Well, in his defense, he’s only been my supervisor for 2 weeks. I used to work from home and through this whole write up, got kicked off the work at home team and had to start working for the office at the beginning of the month – which gave me a new supervisor.

    3. BRR*

      I would get fired. I don’t think quitting in a situation like this makes a big difference in your next job hunt. Essentially you could be foregoing unemployment benefits just to answer no to that question.

      A big thing to consider is references. If your supervisor will give you a glowing reference I’d say definitely let them fire you. You can easily explain it and have a reference to back it up. If you quit and your supervisor won’t give you a good reference or wont’ give one at all you just gave up $x to say you quit instead of being fired and it looks like you were about to be fired.

      1. Tiffany*

        He probably wouldn’t give me a reference, but honestly, I’m not even going to ask anyone there. It’s a call center, and while I’ve worked there for a long time (almost 4 years), I’ve gone through a number of supervisors. Also, I’ve got a fantastic reference list through work I’ve done in my internship, which is in the same industry I’ll be looking for a job in after graduation and is completely unrelated to call center work. My supervisors at my internship and other people I’ve worked with through that are much better equipped to answer questions about me than any supervisor I’ve had at the call center.

        1. BRR*

          That’s good to hear. And unless you’re applying to a call center I can’t imagine employers caring too much. People put more weight into the quit vs. fired semantics debate than it should get.

    4. Steve G*

      I’m not expert enough in this type of stuff to give you a definitive answer, but I did want to mention that I am job searching, and I’ve applied to 25 jobs, and have opened the applications of maybe 10 more jobs and then decided not to do them…and out of those 35, I only saw “reason for leaving” boxes on maybe 3 of those, so I personally wouldn’t quit just to avoid filling out that field honestly.

  106. beckythetechie*

    Last week a friend was approached by a friend at work (different departments) and asked if she knew of any good candidates for an Assistant to the Director of (for discussion purposes, Teapot Lids). Friend mulled it over and gave my name, then IMed me with great joy and enthusiasm. “You’d be really good at this, and it’s far better ethics than your last place. Plus our health insurance is great!”

    Having nothing to lose and being obligated by the labor board not to dismiss any leads out of hand, I wrote a specific cover letter like Alison has discussed at length here, and submitted it with a resume and application.

    I was called back the next day, scheduled for a mid-week morning interview, where I met Director and Boss Nun (Oh, yeah, it’s for a religious non-profit, so it couldn’t be farther from the smarminess of big box retail). Boss Nun is… “prickly” to use the word my “no ruffled feathers ever” friend used. I’d say she’s a hard nosed retired teacher, which I can respect. It might irritate the dickens out of me until she gets to know me, but I can at least respect her, which I can’t say about the Big Bosses at the last place. The interview went well, I think, based on the assessing once over I got from Boss Nun and my ability to circle everything she asked back around to my strengths (customer service, organization, work ethic and willingness, etc.). Director seems eager to have me; Boss Nun was harder to read, but I didn’t gather any seeds of disapproval right away.

    BUT, then came my first worry. Director tried to email me a calendar on Tuesday. Having heard nothing since my interview, I called on Wednesday and was put through to her directly instead of just her voice mail. Turns out the remaining Assistant to the Director was out of work most of the week, Director was running the entire Teapot Lids department by herself, and the email had bounced/failed and been overlooked. Rats. So, we confirmed my email address and she (in theory) tried it again that day or the next morning.

    Yesterday afternoon? Still nothing. So, I poked the friend who suggested me, explained in a nut shell, and she forwarded the document (which is available to everyone internally and for public use for scheduling purposes). I’m a little worried that going to another department to get info Director thought I should have may look sneaky and unprofessional, but at the same time Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster I called! If I hadn’t followed up by phone, I would never have known I got a second interview. I suspect, “Get M. organized!” is going to be part of the job description should I get/take an offer. It’s well within my wheel house, but it makes me wonder what else is more difficult than it needs to be because she has a masters degree in exactly what she needs to, but not a lot of computer skills/organizational skills. But hey, perfect spot for me to step into, obsessive Brother label, color-coder that I am.

    I’m off to the second interview with a list of a few questions for her/them this afternoon. Do I mention to Director privately if she asks that I got the info through Friend, or play off that the second email got through and let her know via email or phone after the interview that I never got her messages? I know she’s had a rough week of doing 3 peoples’ work at once, and if Boss Nun is with us today as well, I don’t want to make her look foolish when she’s that slammed.

    1. it happens*

      No reason to mention it in the meeting. Just make sure to send the thank you email to her address so she can reply to your correct address. Good luck.

      1. BeckyDaTechie*

        It turns out 1) Boss Nun wasn’t involved in this visit and 2) M. brought it up almost immediately so we could go over the *other* part of the attachment that she hadn’t mentioned during our call, the all important Job Description. But, the second interview and tour went well (I shook lots of sweet, Sisterly hands) and accepted their offer. It’s less than I was asking, but more than I would have taken, so I’m pleased over all that I’ll be able to meet our needs with a single job for the first time in my life. And, more importantly, I feel like I can do some good for some people who deserve it, so I’ll be more willing to persevere through the difficult stretches.

  107. Ashley K.*

    The quick question: My boyfriend is going on a year unemployed now, and he’s having no luck finding a new job. He’s a writer so it’s not surprising that his opportunities are limited; it’s that he’s had dozens of interviews with no offers. Understandably, he’s feeling pretty depressed – which isn’t going to help future interviews! Is there anything I can do to help support him other than just being there for him?

    The greater context: We both graduated from a top 5 school with degrees in English literature. Our careers diverged. My first was as a editorial department assistant; then I got laid off 3 months in. They created a new job for me doing the same thing for the marketing department… and the rest is history! Over the past 5 years, I’ve had 5 title promotions, tripled my salary, and landed in an industry I love with a manager role that normally requires 5-7 years direct experience and an MBA (neither of which I have). Recruiters contact me all the time with new offers.

    My boyfriend, by contrast, was fired from his first job — it was a terrible, terrible fit — worked at a hotel for a few months, took an entry-level job at a gaming company in order to get a foot in, moved over to the localization department because he wants to do writing jobs, and then was laid off. He’s never made more than $15/hr. He’s been unemployed for a year now, interviewing for jobs in PR/marketing and copywriting, and despite passing skills tests and phone screens, it appears his interview skills just aren’t that great.

    I fully recognize that I am LUCKY LUCKY LUCKY to be where I am. I am not ashamed of my success, but I don’t talk about it with him. His dad, on the other hand, regularly compares him against me, asking why he isn’t as successful/lucky/etc. and making disparaging remarks about his drive, work ethic, etc. I wouldn’t say my boyfriend is as driven as I am, but he’s not trying to be where I am, either: he just wants a job that pays more than minimum wage and is a step on the career ladder instead of being just another miscellaneous, dead-end paycheck.

    I really want to help but I just don’t know what to do. I listen to his frustration, we’ve review his resume with professionals, rehearsed interview skills… still nothing. Advice would be fantastic!

    1. beckythetechie*

      I don’t know what your relationship with his dad is like, but making him aware that the jibber-jabber isn’t going to help (obviously, because it hasn’t) might be about the only thing you can do in terms of keeping his morale up. Job hunting is rough; his father may not realize how much his concerns sound like “she’s better than you, man up” and how rude that really is. If the opportunity presents itself to talk to his dad without your boyfriend around, it might be worth a try. “We know you’re worried, but please, stop talking about his job hunt. Comparing his struggles to my lucky break isn’t fair or necessary, and it’s making things worse, not better.”

      1. Ashley K.*

        It’s an ongoing struggle. My BF & I have been together for just about 9 years, and these remarks are nothing new — my boyfriend grew up hearing these things about his schoolwork, even though he was always a straight A student and got into a super competitive college. His dad’s starting to soften a little ever since his favorite (my BF’s sister) came home with her MA and has struggled to find anything, but years of psychological warfare have taken their toll (and he hasn’t stopped yet, either, just does it less frequently).

        You’re right, I should be direct. Thanks!

        1. BeckyDaTechie*

          You’re welcome. :) I come from a fairly toxic family, so I know how hard it can be to stand up for oneself when you’re the product of a harsh dynamic like that. He’s blessed, though, to have you in his corner to keep him going. (Don’t forget to take care of *you* in all this too.)

    2. fposte*

      beckythetechie’s covered the later part. I’m thinking about the fact that he’s gotten a lot of interviews without getting an offer. I know he’s likely going for pretty competitive positions, but it might be worthwhile for him to get some interview coaching, since that’s where he’s getting beat.

      1. Ashley K.*

        I think that should be our next step, too. Are you familiar with who we might contact to do that? I am not even sure what people handle that sort of thing.

        1. fposte*

          I have no idea! I just know it’s a Thing. Could he start by asking his alma mater’s career/alumni center?

          1. Ashley K.*

            I’m sure there’s something around here, giant city that we are. I’ll tap into the network and see what we can find. Thanks again!

    3. Somewhat More Anon for This*

      Anecdote for your boyfriend: My husband and I are writers, and we graduated from our advanced degrees at the same time. He applied for and got a pretty decent job contracting, in which he was a rock star, and eventually got a permanent position– goody for him.

      I struggled with being unemployed for over a year. It was awful. Then I got a ridiculously low-paying job. But THEN– I moved up to a much better job within a few months. And THEN– after a couple more months, I moved up again. (This is all contracting, so it wasn’t job hopping so much) Now I make more than husband. Hurrah!

      So tell him to ignore his dad, because you never know how things will actually shake out!

      1. Ashley K.*

        That’s my attitude as well. Thanks for the anecdote – I’ll share it with him! Maybe knowing directly that someone’s gone through just the same things will help.

  108. StudentA*

    Has anyone here ever done the following: You interview with a hiring manager, then get invited back to meet other team members for a second interview. You get a rejection for this role. A year later, a different position opens up.

    Do you contact the hiring manager of the other position to put in a good word for you? Or do you contact the recruiter you talked to a year ago? I am only considering these options because this is a company I’ve been wanting to join for several years.

    1. Lucy*

      I would apply through the normal channels and mention in your cover letter you have previously interviewed for the role of teapot maker with Jane in operations – the people you spoke to might not be there any longer (or remember you if they are) so this allows whoever is running the hiring process to reach out to this person if they’re able to.

    2. Anon369*

      I’d contact the hiring manager – they may not be using the same recruiter this time.

    3. Colette*

      I don’t think you want to ask the hiring manager to put in a good word for you – she had one conversation with you a year ago – but you could let her know you applied and are excited about the opportunity.

    4. BRR*

      I’d probably just apply through the regular channels unless there was something like she said she wanted to hire you but was overruled.

  109. Beth Anne*

    Do you ever think recruiters/hiring managers don’t really read your resume? I’ve had 3 interviews in the last week and in every one they got mad I didn’t have payroll experience or much accounting experience in general.

    It’s pretty obvious from my resume I’m looking for an entry-level position (or so I thought) as I only have some temp work and an internship. Blah I’m just frustrated with my lack of 3-10 years experience most jobs seem to want :(

    1. Colette*

      I had an interview with a hiring manager who didn’t read or understand my resume. About five minutes in I realized I was not going to get the job and started treating it as an information gathering session.

      1. Beth Anne*

        yeah my interview last week was like that sort of…and the job ad and what they told me were totally different. And then at one point the lady was just reading my entire resume and not asking me anything and was all your resume tells me everything I need to know! I don’t need to ask you anything else….

    2. Amber Rose*

      I often have that same problem.

      When I did get a job where it was possible, I essentially begged for someone to train me in those areas. Problem is, everyone wants you to know *their* system. Simply Accounting and MYOB are useless to a company using Account Edge. :C

      1. Beth Anne*

        Yeah everyone wants you to know Quickbooks inside and out. I’ve used quickbooks but my internship we used Sage which it seems no one used. I do tell them how I set-up quickbooks for a former employer but that doesn’t seem that impressive to hiring managers.

        I have also just told them I can be trained to do things but it’s like no one wants to take the time to train people..I’m getting kind of frustrated with it all. I’ve tried staffing agencies and they haven’t been much help either.

    3. Xarcady*

      One interview I went on, the interviewers had assumed from the fact that I had worked at a translation agency, that I spoke and wrote Spanish.

      Now, nothing on my resume would lead anyone to that conclusion. I mean, I could see how you might think that someone working at a translation agency could translate–but a few moments thought might lead you to the idea that translation agencies might have, oh, say, HR people and finance people, and desktop publishing people, and things like that–positions where knowing another language simply isn’t necessary.

      And even if I did speak and write a language other than English, there are a great many languages out there–the chances of it being Spanish aren’t that great. I have studied French and German and Old English and Latin, and can count to 10 in about 5 other languages, but Spanish? I have never studied it.

      And the only reason they seemed to be interviewing me was that they thought I could solve their problem of needing all their HR materials in both Spanish and English. Once I had made it clear that I didn’t speak Spanish, the interview stopped and they tried to pick my brains about how to find a good translation agency. My attempts to show that I was indeed qualified for the job were totally ignored.

      After that debacle, I double-checked the job posting. Absolutely nothing about being bilingual, or knowing Spanish. Nothing.

    4. Dang*

      Yes. I’ve had hiring managers openly admit that they “hadn’t seen my resume” at all.

    5. Stephanie*

      Yes. Or they just skim it. I interviewed for a manufacturing engineer role that required experience with specific processes like thermoforming and I don’t have experience with that. It was a very awkward interview with me answering things like “Do you have experience with injection molding?” “No.” “Do you have experience with thermoforming equipment?” “No.” I didn’t want to lie and say I did because I knew that would end horribly when they started to ask specific questions.

      I was not surprised when I never heard from them again.

    6. Steve G*

      In 2007 I interviewed for an Executive Assistant position (which was really more of a general sales/operations coordinator role anywayssssss….) and when I got to the interview (70 miles from home as I planned to moved once I got a job in NYC) I was tested on computer skills for an hour, but when it came to interview time, it was done in like 20 minutes because I had no EA experience. The lady asked me like 5 different ways why I was there because they wanted 3-5yrs EA experience. I had no real answer.

  110. Beck*

    Hi everyone! I was supposed to start a new job March 16, so I left my last job on March 6 in order to have time off to run errands, get home improvement projects done, etc. I found out today that the company is pushing my start date back to March 23! They seem apologetic and said there is a surprise FDA audit at the moment — no one will be free to train me since all employees must be helping with the audit.

    I’m not sure how I should feel about this. Of course I am outwardly understanding — I emailed them back, thanked them for letting me know, told them that I look forward to my start date. I know I need to be understanding — surprise FDA audits happen and need to be taken seriously. But I can’t but feel annoyed since I had planned to only have one week off of work and now I have TWO.

    Thoughts?

    1. The IT Manager*

      Lucky?

      I know that for some people a week’s lost wages could put them in financial straits, but I would be glad for the extra week off myself. Additionally they could have had you show up as scheduled and then asked you to sit in a corner because there was no one to inprocess or train you so overall I think this was a considerate thing for them to do.

    2. Ruth (UK)*

      I think them pushing it back by one week is a small enough amount of time that if you feel annoyed by it, you need to keep that to yourself (which it sounds like you have done anyway).

      Unless you really are stretched paycheck-to-paycheck with your finances, it shouldn’t really cause any issues and I imagine this is not the case anyway or you probably would have mentioned it in your original post.

      It would be more problematic if they were pushing you to start earlier than planned which might clash with other commitments (ie. working notice at your previous job etc). Take the opportunity to make use of the additional time for errands/preparing/relaxing/whatever and if not being at work is making you unhappy, remember it’s only for 1 more week than you’d initially planned. If you’re feeling annoyed, remember that the have a good reason, and it’s a good thing that they were apologetic etc too.

      Also congrats on your new job!

    3. Steve G*

      Are you really that short on cash that the extra week matters that much? Because I would be THRILLED!!!

      I wouldn’t want to rush into a job not ready for me to start, there is already enough downtime at new jobs as it is…

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Having gone through a government audit a while ago, I know for a fact they are protecting you from the mayhem that is sure to follow. These audits can throw places into disarray, depending on the place and the circumstances they could be shielding you from the chaos which in turn allows you to keep the job.

      One place I worked government people came in and we had to have the exact correct response to their questions. That required some coaching. Things got very hectic. Yet another layer of junk they could be shielding you from.

  111. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    I have to steal in quickly to tell you guys this story I’ve wanted to tell you for days now.

    So we were talking in a thread recently about how you deal with it when people you are responsible for are complaining about people not in your work group being up to par. In the comments I said to the effect, I deal with this all the time and one of things I try to do is help my people understand “our ways are not their ways”. What is true is that our processes are as liner as we can make them and The Others (corporate) tend to have non linear ways of doing things.

    True. Story.

    I had to wait by reception for a few minutes the other day and our receptionist had multiple stacks of paper, each about 1 1/2 feet high on her desk, accompanied by the whirring of machinery. Chatty, I said, whatcha doin and we come to this story/process.

    * All of our invoices for corporate are received via email, upstairs
    * They are then all printed out, upstairs.
    * They are processed upstairs, and ***stapled***
    * They are loaded into paper boxes (ya know, the copier paper boxes) and taken downstairs to reception via elevator
    * The staples are ***removed*** o.O and they are scanned
    * They are then carted to the shredder in the warehouse
    * Somebody in the warehouse shreds them and discards them.
    * Should I mention discards in plastic bags because we don’t have paper bicycling? Nah.

    I kid you not.

    Which….is where we get the saying……….. “their ways are not our ways”.

    1. KJR*

      I’ve read this through a few times, and HOPING AGAINST HOPE that I am missing something….

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Right?

        You should have seen me when I was asking the questions. It was just a casual conversation, and then I kept saying “What?” and “What??”, walking through the whole thing trying to see what I was missing. Hoping against hope!

    2. Amber Rose*

      Sounds like when I worked for the government.

      Incoming documents are stapled. Sensitive info is removed (hopefully, I caught more than a few drivers license and passport numbers) and sent downstairs. Staples are removed, documents are scanned and QC’d and posted online. The originals are placed in boxes and shipped off to a storage facility. Forever. I had occasion to pull one of our oldest documents once. It was from 1889.

      The sheer weight of paper caused the storage facility to close for a few months when the racks started collapsing, making it too dangerous to go inside.

      1. AVP*

        This is not government, but one of my clients is obsessed with sending all of their archives and drives to this big warehouse a few states away as soon as a project is completed. They do not keep anything around the office because, you know, clutter.

        However…whenever they need to go back into a project, they don’t have the time to wait for the storage place to ship it to them, so they just ask us since we’re a few blocks away and we keep our archives close. And then, when we finish whatever we’re fixing for them, we have to do another archive drive, which we send to their storage. And then, a week later, you guessed it…

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        We went to scanning for storage years ago after the storage of paper was taking up so much room we were dying. I had a hand in that push although I’m not going to take full credit for it. I asked one of the company owners if he really wanted to pay for an entire new building for all of this paper or maybe take a look at this new fangled scanning stuff.

        I was mostly responsible for the big push to receiving invoices through email. I threw a fit one day when I saw two people opening mail, smoothing the creases out of invoices individually to try to get the papers to lie flat for *hours*. I made such a stink that happened.

        It never occurred to me that point A (email receipt) and point Z (stored scanning) could be still so convoluted in the middle. Like, that anyone could think that’s a good idea?

        1. Stephanie*

          Actually, we tried to go paperless at my federal agency. Incoming applications for review were scanned and uploaded into an electronic system. Except this failed because it’s difficult to read complex and lengthy legal and technical documents on a screen. So everyone (myself included) just printed everything out anyway.

    4. the gold digger*

      The only good thing I see in this story is that you guys are using a lot of paper, which gives me hope that I might someday actually get my pension from the paper company where I used to work.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Since I’m acting like such a know it all in relation to The Others here, I have to confess that our own processes are helping keep your pension secure also.

        It’s the devil, but we haven’t figured out how to be paperless while our orders are active. They still have papers collected in job jackets and move around from station to station until the order is complete when the papers are discarded and the job jackets reused.

        It’s actually efficient to our process but sub optimal for our planet. Plus sounds so old fashioned it’s embarrassing.

        We’re working on making you are sure you are poor when you retire but we’re not there yet.

    6. BRR*

      When Senior Blogger Alison did the post about what surprised you the most about entering the work force I said I was tired. I want to amend my answer to the amount of paper wasted. I work for a nonprofit and I swear our mission is to single handedly destroy the rainforest.

    7. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      The thing that gets me the most is that the papers are stapled when they are printed and then staple removed to scan. They are paying people to staple and people to unstaple! In a short period of time!

      BTW, I believe I have won Open Thread this week. If someone will promise me a golden Barbie doll for my win, I will sincerely promise to address this issue with PTB, even though Not My Problem.

      1. the gold digger*

        In my awful year in corporate finance, one of my chores (at 9 p.m. at night, in the basement of the building, in the copy center) was to proof all the BOD presentations and then remove the staples from the left-hand side of the presentation and staple on the right-hand side.

        No. Not paid OT. So why would anyone above me care?

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          ha ha ha omg did I truly laugh out loud.

          I mean, I ‘m sorry for your trouble. (I always say the wrong thing first :) )

  112. Quagga*

    I’m looking for tips and suggestions on ways to get the most out of my relationship with a temp agency. I signed up with a temp agency specializing in creative/media work about 9 weeks ago and so far very little has come out of it. I totally understand that it’s a tight job market out there, but I’m more concerned by the fact that my recruiter only replies to half of my emails. I’m also wondering if it’s out of place to ask my recruiter to provide feedback on my resume, or even my interview skills. She’s not a career coach, but it would benefit her to help me be a better candidate, right? Or not? Any advice is appreciated!

    1. jamlady*

      My experience is that a recruiter will request changes to your resume to tailor toward certain positions. They need that thing to be at its best in order to sell a company on your jobs skills. So no, I don’t think it would be at all out of place to ask for advice on your resume, but this is assuming that they have no plans to request you make changes when they find positions that are a good match. Again, my recruiters always ask for changes for each specific position they’re looking into. Your recruiter may just be waiting for that time to come.

      As for the lack of communication, I would definitely do my best to shoot her an e-mail every few weeks just to remind her that I’m still here, but I wouldn’t worry about no response. If she’s good at her job, she’ll reach out when there’s something out there for you. However, temp agencies are tricky and I keep these jobs as a last resort – you should still be looking around on your own.

      I only keep in touch with one agent long-term (he’s the only awesome one I’ve ever had) just to update him on my status and maybe send an updated resume (I work a lot of contracts). I’ve never kept up any relationship with anyone else. I personally don’t care for recruiters or temp agencies – I have been lied to in the past and feel they care more about selling you on a job rather than getting you somewhere that you’ll be happy.

      1. Quagga*

        Thanks very much for the information, jamlady. It’s reassuring to know that my recruiter hasn’t necessarily abandoned me. And yes, I am absolutely running my own job search in the meantime. Cheers!

    2. Dang*

      It took me a long time to find a temp job. My advice would to register with as many as you can!

  113. DaBlonde*

    Please tell me that there is a special hell for people who design tables in Word instead of using Excel.

    2. the gold digger*

      Yes. It is the fourth circle, right after the place for bosses who take the financial report you put on the shared drive in the “Financial reports/2014/July” folder and named “Financial report July 2014.ppt,” saves it to his hard drive under the name “072014Fin_Rep.ppt,” then uses the May financial report in his presentation to the BOD and shoots daggers at you with his eyes during the meeting when the chairman starts asking questions.

      1. LCL*

        I inherited many many documents that had technical specs in word tables. It is a holdover from the old days when word and excel didn’t play well together. I use excel for tables and lists whenever possible, including values that are all words. I find it much easier to alphabetize lists in excel, and to sort and find things.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Just think of the hell they went through trying to format it correctly. Or is that just me?

    5. CollegeAdmin*

      At my mother’s workplace, they have electronic forms that are designed in PowerPoint. I hope those designers get to join that special hell.

  114. TheAssistant*

    I’m having trouble snapping out of a professional funk.

    From October-February, I was itching for a specific promotion that opened in my department. The work was exactly that intersection of “I can contribute to this team from Day 1” and “I will learn a lot here”. The interview was excellent – I developed great rapport with the manager and colleague. The timing was perfect – I had been in a junior role for about 18 months at the organization, which is recognized as a good time to consider moving up. But I was rejected for the promotion. Not because I wasn’t qualified, but because it turns out my division is in a “secret” (nobody’s talking about it, but it’s definitely happening) hiring/backfill/promotion freeze. This particular hiring manager was “given” another employee from a different department.

    I am not normally the person to dwell on unrealized jobs, but this one in particular has been devastating. I feel incredibly frustrated with the organization’s upper management. I feel consistently micromanaged by my higher-level colleagues, even though I’m constantly praised for being “scary efficient” and productive while producing minimal errors. I’m reminded how to do my job daily, even though I’ve been doing it quite well for nearly two years. My attitude at work is abysmal and I know it’s starting to show.

    How do I get over this? How do I find the joy in my job again? How do I realign my professional attitude so I can soon be considered for stretch projects while I wait out the promotion freeze? I don’t feel that leaving after less than two years is beneficial for many reasons, and I’m genuinely committed mentally to staying for the next 18 months or so.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Ohh yeah. I’ve been there.

      I think you need to give yourself some time to grieve for what might have been. I totally understand because I’ve been there, and there’s really not much other than time that’s going to make this better, especially if you don’t want to leave.

      I’m sorry – I’ve been there. But just force yourself to work hard and look for new challenges – don’t be that person who got denied the promotion and then had a bad attitude forever. Grieve it and force yourself to move forward.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, that seems very Lucy and the football, doesn’t it? How long ago did this happen (or not happen)?

      I’d start with simple measures–have you taken a vacation? I think getting away from the place is the likeliest thing to help. I also might allow for a little movement on that commitment to stay for 18 more months. Look around at some other jobs–is there something that looks interesting? Get the resume in gear. If your job feels like a choice rather than a prison it’s likely to improve your attitude.

      And maybe you can rejig your work dealings a little bit by changing up your habits. Who do you really like, and not just to bitch to? Maybe now’s the time to plan a lunch, or a lunchtime walk. Get up and walk around a lot so you don’t feel so stuck–I use Mindful Mynah on my computer to remind me to do that every half hour. Do some nice things for yourself at work, or put some nice things on your desk–something that makes you feel valuable.

      None of this is magic, and things may just need to take their time. But I think you’re sensible to try to redirect this before it becomes a damaging habit, and I hope you manage to do so and find some satisfaction again.

      1. TheAssistant*

        Ah, thanks! This happened a few weeks ago. Complicating matters, and my decision to stay, is that I’m applying to grad school. I’ve discovered what I really, truly want to do (and would be great at!), but this job requires an advanced degree. I’ve been studying like a madwoman for the entrance exam, and I know – I KNOW – it is Not Helping The Work Attitude. Thankfully, I take the test Monday, and even if I need to retake it, I plan to take a few months off from studying. The school application process takes 18 months. I think it would be damaging to my application to leave – I want to show growth in my resume, not just a title without accomplishments – and it would be crappy for me to take a job I know I will leave in a year.

        I had a pretty productive meeting with my boss last week, who is very supportive and excellent at providing timely feedback. She mentioned the attitude was a problem and it needed to be nipped in the bud. I also brought her ideas for stretch projects and she gave me some leads as to how to pursue them. I’m just nervous that my workload has increased so much with the more rote tasks on my to-do list that I won’t really have time to do cool stretch projects. However, there won’t be ANY cool projects if I don’t get my attitude under control, so I’m taking a few mini-vacations this spring, and planning them has lightened my mood considerably.

  115. AnonForNow*

    I am curious if anyone has been in a similar situation and had any thoughts. I’m up for a job that’s been open for a long time and I don’t think they’re interviewing anyone else right now. It’s moved very fast and we’ve been in near-constant contact with them requesting samples and happily sending some back my way so I can compare their work with what I’ve done in the past. I still feel like this job may not work out simply because they’ve chosen to keep the position open for so long despite the number of candidates, but they’re being way more personable and communicative during this process than I’ve experienced before. I’m wondering if it’s just because I’m the only candidate or if they’re actually leaning toward hiring me.

    1. Dawn*

      Sounds more like the position has been open for a while and they haven’t found anyone they liked yet, then you came along and they really, really like you! Trust me, sometimes companies keep a position open for a long time because they’re looking for a good fit and no one fits the bill. Take it as a good sign :)

  116. Katie the Fed*

    This is only kind of on topic, but I just want to say – if there are any nurses, nursing assistants, or physical/occupational therapists out there:

    I think you guys are saints. I don’t know how you do what you do but I wouldn’t have gotten through the last several weeks without people like you. Thank you.

  117. Dunno*

    Soooo..I have a case of a fairly lazy and hands off manager and then her manager is a micromamager. My supervisor is *really* hands off, which is fine because I know the job really well and had been doing a swell job. Recently, my boss’ boss (“Ridiculous”) suggested I start working longer hours and in a different location, so I let her know I was not comfortable with that. Now Ridiculous is managing me essentially and keeping tabs on everything I do. I now hate my boss (and Ridiculous) because they act like petty school girls–my boss tries to act neutral but she and Ridiculous have a good working relationship, even though Ridiculous is very gossipy, domineering, petty (like as in ALWAYS talking about employees and what other managers she likes and doesn’t like). I can’t figure out WHY they have a good working relationship because Ridiculous is a micromanager and my boss is quite lazy!! It makes me paranoid that perhaps my boss talks badly about me to Ridiculous (“Oh, Im having a hard time managing X.”) because how else could she get away with not being in the office half the time or even supervising and yet have her manager micromanaging me but that manager consider her a friend?? I don’t understand this dynamic and need insight from people with more experience (10-15 years) in the work world.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Your boss isn’t just lazy, she’s also spineless. She chooses to wear the colors of the horse she is standing next to. Lacking any of her own thoughts on things, she will just adopt the thoughts of the loudest person next to her. This is an easily swayed person. No, you will not sway her because you do not have clout. Her boss has clout.
      It sounds to me like Ridiculous tried to get your boss to have you make some changes. Being lazy and spineless your boss did not do that. So Ridiculous stepped in and started doing it for her.

      Thirty six years in the work world. I promise you will see this again. And again.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Whoops. Should have added: Ridiculous likes spineless people that are easy to manipulate or by-pass. You might not do well here.

      2. Dunno*

        Thanks for the insight. Yep–you’re right. My boss has many accomplishments but after getting to know her and work for her, I’ve lost respect because she and Ridiculous are literally like high school girls and she is follower. I don’t think it’s alway a bad thing to follow your boss–I mean that’s what you’re supposed to do. But when your boss is a bully (i.e.Chris Christie), then it’s a bad thing and you burn bridges, even if the bridge at the time is a subordinate because I’ll be moving on!

  118. Rin*

    Anyone else feel stuck at your job? I’m in admin, and I feel like I can’t go anywhere else, because I don’t have enough skills for any other type of work, and there probably aren’t a lot of places that have the perks that my job has. But…I just don’t want to be here anymore. I feel trapped!

  119. HiringQuestion*

    I am hiring for an open position and one of the candidates recently became quite ill and is currently unable to come in for an interview. How long must I hold off filling the position? Am I legally obligated to do so?

    1. fposte*

      Unless you’re in government, the law doesn’t have any opinion on this–you’re free to hire somebody right now if you want. What I’d do would depend on how interested I was in this candidate and what other factors are affecting my schedule. I would probably offer the person any other open times during our interviewing period; if I thought she was really likely to be a top candidate and I had the time, I might extend for another week.

      But it’s fine to say “I’m really sorry to hear that; I’m afraid we have to keep to our current hiring schedule, but I look forward to hearing from you when we have another opening.”

  120. Amber Rose*

    My company wants me to eventually be our safety coordinator. End game would have me certified to do safety audits anywhere.

    I have zero experience doing this (a statement which essentially defines my entire position haha). Is there some homework I could do that would help me succeed? Do I need to memorize the OSHA guidelines? Because they’re long, exceedingly dry, and couched in that government legalese terminology that I deeply loathe. But I love my job like whoah. I would do anything to excel here.

    1. jade*

      do you have someone in that spot currently? or is there a local OSHA rep you can talk to?

      presumably there is a crib sheet/cliffs notes version of the guidelines. in this day of google, who memorizes anything anymore? :)

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      I think instead of memorizing the OSHA regulations, you could maybe google your industry/work environment + safety guidelines or something? Some things are obviously going to be more relevant in a manufacturing environment than an office environment.

    3. KJR*

      I believe OSHA offers a 30 hour course that I bet would help a lot, at least as a start. Plus, I know at least in Ohio, our Bureau of Worker’s Compensation offers a lot of free training and audits. Check with your state to see if something similar is offered. Parts of it safety are very interesting, and parts of it…not so much. There is a lot to it. And yes, you will need to know the guidelines thoroughly. Plus, from a personal standpoint, It’s really useful training to have in terms of being able to transfer the information to another company if you ever needed. Also, I would consider how open the company is in listening to whatever you suggest/insist on. I think the last think you’d want in a safety coordinator position is to be “in name only.” Plus, it would be very rewarding to know that you are playing a large part in keeping your workplace, and in turn your employees safe.

  121. squids*

    Just happy this afternoon — I had a massive amount of work given to me this past December as a result of a legal action (I’m not a lawyer but often must collaborate with them) and today I’m finishing and sending off the last of it. Most of that intervening time was waiting for information I needed from others, but it’s so good to be able to at least intellectually cross the whole mess off as completed.

  122. Telephone Fear Question*

    So, I don’t have a phone-heavy role at work, but whenever I need to call someone — outside vendor, client — I will absolutely procrastinate until the last minute. I get really, really anxious about it. This isn’t new, but lately, it’s near crippling. In general, I definitely write better than speak, especially off the top of my head. I do as much by email as I can, but that has limits.

    Any advice about how to tackle this problem? I already see a therapist for general anxiety issues (I’m an equal-opportunity anxious person). How to handle this on a day-to-day basis until it becomes second nature to pick up the phone?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I have, or had, this problem.

      I write it all out. My opening spiel, the possible questions I might be asked or need to ask, and a script for asking people if I can have someone call them back. I have it stuck by my phone. Then I read it.

      “Good morning, Chocolate Teapots Incorporated, Amber speaking. Do you want sales or tech support? Please hold while I transfer you.”

      Also, try to grab the phone on the first ring. I find the longer I let it go, the more anxious I get.

      Also also, pick up the phone and wait a beat before speaking. Nobody will notice, and it gives you a breath in silence to calm down.

      1. Telephone Fear OP*

        Thanks, these are all great tips. I’m occasionally the backup receptionist, so having the script helps (I’ve been known to answer my cell phone the same way — ha!)

    2. jamlady*

      I’ve become way better, but I still have to be alone when I make phone calls that aren’t to family (and I barely call them – we’re texters). In a business setting, I do the following things:

      1) Plan the moment the call needs to be made (whether it’s in 5 minutes or 5 hours).
      2) I rehearse the conversation in my head (like you might do for an interview).
      3) I write down the specifics (person’s name, topics we need to cover, etc.) and refer to this piece of paper throughout.
      4) I make sure I’ve done all I can personally to make sure I won’t need to be busy while on the phone (fill my water, use the restroom, eat a snack, take an Excedrin if I’ve particularly headachey that day, etc.)
      5) I do my best to be alone or at least out of earshot of other people. If someone comes in while I’m already on the phone, I’m fine, but it’s just hard to start the call when someone else is there. If I can’t be alone, I usually put my finger in my free ear or let the person(s) nearby know I’m making a call (if I know them very well, they know that I’m asking them to put in their headphones, but I’ve had great coworkers).

      My anxiety stems from lack of control and for some reason I don’t like being in real-time conversations with people I can’t see. I’m fine over e-mail and I’m fine in person, but I really hate the phone. I get around my anxiety by planning the HECK out of everything. I would say that if you have discovered (with the help of your therapist maybe) how to monitor your anxiety, try to find a way to apply it to specific situations. In this case, talking on the phone.

      1. Telephone Fear OP*

        Thanks, Jamlady. Your preparations all sound like things I should be doing consistently! I also don’t like not being in control and I think I like seeing people face to face when speaking because I can read facial expressions. Over the phone, I don’t know if I’m boring / on the wrong track / interesting. I’m also much more of a planner than “fly by the seat of my pants,” so I’m sure that plays a role too. (I’m getting better with the quick response, but my happy zone is being able to think about a question for a bit before I respond. Obvs, this doesn’t usually work out in the workplace.)

        1. jamlady*

          I’m such a rambler on the phone. In person, I can tell when the other person needs/wants to speak, but over the phone, if there’s even a blip of silence, I just keep going haha. Again, I’m so much better now, but it sneaks up on me every so often and I have to be like “cool it chatty” lol.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          If it is work related, being boring or interesting has NO bearing here at all. Matter of fact we have entire posts dedicated to how people do NOT like interesting chatter. It is not interesting to them. So take the boring/interesting thing and throw it away. Replace it with courteous and accurate.

          Wrong track: If you do not know if you are on the right track- please,please ASK.
          “So you are saying you need A, B and C from us. Am I understanding this correctly?”
          “Okay, you are canceling Friday’s deliver but you want a double delivery on Monday. Do I have this right?”
          I am in a new-to-me arena. There have been times where I have said “I will help you as soon as I understand what you need. (Usually people giggle at this point, because they are not sure either!) Now you are saying the gizmo broke but you think it is because the whatsie failed. So you need a new gizmo and a new whatsie?”

          I have built a reputation for having real answers and doing solid work. Much of this happens over the phone.

          Picture yourself at home, you call a business to ask a question or get some help. Think about how you want to be treated as a consumer. Now apply this to your job. Start by treating people in a manner that you would want to be treated. Focus on being courteous and accurate.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Like Amber Rose, I write everything out. I also practice conversations in my head, and have a few alternative phrases ready in case the person says something unexpected.

      Would it help to ask your manager to give you hard and fast deadlines for the calls? My manager tends to say things like ‘Call Sansa immediately and find out what this means.’ Without the extra time, I tend to get less anxious because I know I have to do it right now.

      1. Telephone Fear OP*

        That hard deadline does help, come to think of it. My manager will come out of his office and be like “call these people immediately,” and I do without a second thought. It’s the list of phone calls I have to make that makes it the worst for me. It’s probably bc I have too much time to think. (I’m afraid of misspeaking / generally sounding like an idiot because I’ve never been an overly confident speaker — and being in the middle of a cube farm where everyone can hear doesn’t help.)

        It’s frustrating because if I get on a roll with being on the phone with people, I’m fine (I was a journalism major in college), but when I have a break of a few days, then the “anxious voice” telling me I sound ridiculous on the phone starts up.

    4. Sadsack*

      I used to be the exact same way! Making sure you are prepared before making the call will help, but you’ll probably find that it becomes a non-issue after making many calls on a regular basis. Before making a call, make a list of the points you want to discuss and have whatever info you need in front of you — before dialing is key! Make the call, maybe sound stupid, maybe not, but the more practice you get, the more confident you will become. Eventually, you will not think twice about picking up the phone to call someone.

      1. Telephone Fear OP*

        Thanks for the encouragement, Sadsack! I’m glad I’m not the only person who’s dealt with this problem! I guess solving this might be like getting to Carnegie Hall — practice, practice, practice.

    5. Blue_eyes*

      This is late, and I don’t really have any advice to offer, but I’m totally the same way about the phone. I don’t mind talking to friends and family, but calling strangers is my nightmare. I once had a job where I had to call people who didn’t know me (and often hadn’t heard of our program) in Spanish (my second language). I dreaded every call.

    6. Snoskred*

      There is a specific term for this in the call centre industry – we call it – drumroll – call reluctance.

      Anyone can suffer from it – my other half is a great example, he has never worked in a call centre but ask him to make a phone call and he will put it off, and put it off, until I just make it myself or stand over him while he does it. I like to stand over him and do a Yoda impression “Do or do not.. there is no try”.

      If you google the term you can find articles designed to help – they are mostly sales call related but they might contain tips that could be useful.

      My advice re this – do not allow yourself to procrastinate. Schedule at least two specific times every day specifically when you will make calls, then reward yourself for making them. Limit the time, eg to 10 or 15 minutes, so if you run out of time bump those calls to your later call slot. You have a good reason to try and get through all the calls in your morning slot – then you can have a call free afternoon. :)

      Reward is up to you, me personally I tend to make my rewards break related. So if it were me, I would schedule in call time as follows – 10am make calls – when that is done take my morning break. 2pm make calls, when that is done take my afternoon break. Procrastinating then delays my breaks.

      They say it takes 21 days to develop a new habit, so maybe do a 30 day trial and see how you go.

      The other thing is to ask yourself – what is the worst thing that can happen when you make a call? There is nothing especially bad that can happen when you make a call, right? Someone can hang up on you, or someone can say something mean to you, that is about it. It isn’t like they can open the door to your office and throw fruit at you. :)

      I wish you multitudes of success with overcoming your call reluctance. :)

    7. BeckyDaTechie*

      Write them an email, then read it when you call. That way with the window open during a conversation with someone, you can make notes about what they said so you know how to reply without excessive “uhm, uh, yeah, okay” filler that make you sound insecure, which in turn feeds into the anxiety.

  123. Satsuma*

    I am applying for a volunteer role (somewhat similar to a camp counselor). The organisation requires two references who are not friends or family, and I am struggling to think of any.

    I am 30 and all my free time is spent with family and friends. I don’t go to church, or participate in any clubs. I work and hang out with my family and friends. I doubt that my school teachers would remember me.

    I really don’t want to use anyone from work as a reference. I will be taking a week of vacation for this, which I am entitled to do. But we are often discouraged from using our full vacation allowance, and I feel that volunteering will not be seen as a good enough reason to use my vacation days. I was planning to say that I spent my vacation visiting family.

    I’m thinking that I could ask my neighbour, who I say hi to every now and then. But I am stumped for a second reference. Any ideas?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I would ask a colleague who knows you well.

      Are you really only allowed a week of vacation and then discouraged from using it? You don’t have to tell your colleagues that it’s a week away, just give the broad brushstrokes of the program and ask for the reference.

      1. Satsuma*

        Actually, I’m in academia. So we are entitled to quite a lot of vacation (6 weeks), but just aren’t expected to use it much. I think the perception will be that if I can do volunteer work, then I must not actually need the time off, and could be putting in more research hours.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Oh academics are the worst about that stuff. You could/should always be doing more research.

          Maybe fposte is around and can answer for this situation – she’s good on the academia stuff.

          I’d still say go with a colleague if you have any you trust.

        2. fposte*

          I’m with Katie in going with a colleague or two; I don’t think that should relate to the vacation issue. Remember “colleague” doesn’t have to mean “manager”–the admin who appreciates that you bring her stuff on time, the mailroom person you get coffee with, the entering grad student you helped are all viable choices here. In general, it would be advisable to give them a rough overview of what you’re looking for, since we’re talking people who might not otherwise be writing recommendations, and I don’t think they need to say that you’re their best friend, just that you’re a kind and reliable colleague.

          Your spelling suggests you’re not USAn, so there are likely other cultural issues that I don’t know about, but in general the way to deal with the “all your hour are belong to us” approach is by calmly owning your time off rather than slinking around pretending that it’s not happening. Some of that notion is academic craziness, but some of it is often a bit of hazing of grad students and junior scholars, and quiet authority is a good demeanor for pushback on that.

  124. jade*

    So it’s early evening where I am, and I was really hoping for an answer on a job I had applied for and interviewed for. When I went in for the final round last Friday, I was told the decision would be made over the weekend, and I’d hear by latest at end of week (today). My assumption being that they would make the decision over the weekend, make the offer to one candidate early in the week, and then once negotiations were done (couple of days), let the other candidate know. They did indicate that there were other positions opening in the org and that the candidate they didn’t select could be considered for those.
    When I didn’t hear by Thursday, I kind of assumed I wasn’t the selected candidate and was thinking about how to broach the “other positions” option (nothing is on the website, but one posting closed at end of Feb that I’d be great for). But I haven’t heard today either, so now I’m actually wondering if no offer has been extended and maybe they are still deciding? Or I suppose still negotiating, but it’s the kind of place that has standard packages (with some modifications for relocation, etc), so I can’t imagine it would take that long.
    Anyway, it could be any of 10000 reasons for not hearing anything yet, but the wait is killing me! And now it’s the weekend, so two more days of waiting and wondering. Aahhh!

  125. WJ*

    Yesterday my manager and an employee in another department that we’re collaborating with had a public spat in the office. Afterwards, my manager sent me a message saying that anything Employee B tells me about the project, they need to be informed because Employee B does not have their facts straight. I know that Employee B knows what they are doing and where the problem spots are in this project, and they have good ideas on how to remedy them that their manager agrees on. But I also know that my manager has their (very good) reasons for sticking to their guns on this as well.

    This is not the first time I have been involved in a disagreement between them (the first time was about my potential transition to Employee B’s department that never came through). I’m trying to remove myself from this situation as much as possible without it affecting my role on this project. I’m sure most of you have dealt with similar situations before. Did it blow over quickly or did it create an awkward work environment for a while?

    1. C Average*

      I think you let Employee B know, in as neutral a tone as possible, that your manager has asked to be kept in the loop with regard to your collaboration for awareness of how things are progressing and of any potential impacts on your other work. This puts Employee B on notice that anything they say can and quite likely will be relayed back to your manager, but not in a way that suggests that your manager’s involvement is odd or inappropriate.

      Do you think your manager will actually interfere with Employee B’s part of the project, or is your manager just wanting awareness of what’s said? If interference is likely, this is a bit tougher.

      1. WJ*

        To put this into context: I work at non-profit. We have a set amount of money for this outward-facing project. There are budgetary concerns (‘we don’t have as big of a budget as we want and we need to find ways to get the money’). Employee B is in our development department and is focused on finding ways to increase the budget, but to do that means taking over the guest list for this project, which is what my manager is pushing back on.

        Employee B made a peace offering earlier today and they’re going to talk through the monetary issues next week and try and find a workable solution. So hopefully this will resolve itself soon.

  126. Violet Rose*

    I’ll try to keep it short and sweet: I am slowly reaching “b*tch eating crackers” stage with my boss. (I don’t report directly to him, but it’s a small enough company that we all come into contact with each other regularly, so I generally refer to him as my boss and my manager as my manager.) He’s not a terrible person, but sometimes he just… *says* things. My favourite recent example was the dreaded, “I’m sick of political correctness”, and referring to being gay as being “of the wrong persuasion”. Oh, and then there was the time he asked if I was on any medication as what was essentially water-cooler chat. That one was incredibly ???-worthy.

      1. Violet Rose*

        I’ve been sorely tempted to move on for a while now, but this is my first office job, and so I’ve been trying to sort out “I don’t like ____ about offices” from “I don’t like ___ about *this* office”. For example, I’ve complained on here before about the “long” hours driving me out of my mind (slightly more than 40 hours a week), which I think is a combination of “not enough variation in what I do” (specific to this job) and “I have no attention span to speak of” (which could be a problem in a *lot* of places). Really, though, I’m relieved to know I’m not just being oversensitive on this front; it can be easy to lose perspective when no one else around seems bothered!

        1. jamlady*

          I totally get that! I’ve had some jobs that I really didn’t care for, but I realized it was just the TYPE of job, not necessarily that specific job. I’ve made a lot of decisions based on what I’ve learned about myself. But this kind of behavior? That would definitely be a job-specific (or rather person-specific) issue. I think I’ve mentioned on here before that I have a lot of LGBTQ people in my family so it’s an absolute line for me that I refuse to let people cross. Feel how you want to feel, but don’t tell me about it and definitely don’t tell me about it at my workplace like it’s just normal chatter.

          This site has actually made me look at my career choices much in the way I do my personal relationships – I have things I’m willing to put up with, learn to love, etc. and then I have things that are an absolute deal-breaker for me. I’ve been much happier with that outlook (thanks, Alison!).

      1. Violet Rose*

        Sadly, there is no one above him, so there is a general sort of “Yeah, unfortunately, that’s just who he is” attitude with respect to many of the things he does. Often times someone will jovially point out that X comment was, er, actually kind of not okay (which he takes well – which is at least a little comforting).

    4. C Average*

      I don’t even know your boss, and your description has pushed me to the “b*tch eating crackers” stage.

    5. afiendishthingy*

      ummm yeah this is not eating crackers, this is “going to get him sued” territory

    6. Not So NewReader*

      “sorry, that is something I prefer not to talk about at work.” Repeat as needed.

    7. BeckyDaTechie*

      My gut response to that medication question would be a quick and “light” sounding, “No but I assumed you were,” which may or may not make the point that if you don’t want it assumed about you, you shouldn’t say it about others. It might also get you a stern talking to about being disrespectful, or just plain booted, though, so proceed with caution. (Maybe save that kind of remark for after you leave a 2 week’s notice?)

      That said, there may be better offices in which to decide whether you just dislike the 9-5 routine or if you’re rightfully put off by this particular person’s entitlement in the workplace.

      Good luck!

  127. Anonsie*

    Is there a polite way to get people to leave me alone when I’m taking a break or at lunch? We don’t have anywhere we can really go for breaks. I normally eat at my desk and browse here/read the news for break time.

    People seem to have no problem coming up when I’m reading the news and eating a sandwich and asking me how to find x info, can you call these people and arrange this, etc. where even if I don’t do it right away I still have to stop and have a conversation and make a note of the details to do it later. Another complicating factor is that I’m the first desk when you walk into the department, so I’m the person everyone asks to help them find things. This is the most common punctuation in my day. This happens often enough that many days it may appear to some that I took a two hour lunch because I actually got interrupted and had to start/stop over and over with either work requests or where is this room questions or something.

    The thing is that most of the people I work with (or for, I guess you could say, my role is largely support) have a very very set schedule and part of my job, in general, is to work around that. It’s not expected, however, that I shouldn’t take a full lunch or anything like that– they encourage us to make sure we get our rest time in. So I can’t just wholesale tell people to come back later, since that’s often not possible. At the same time, if I wasn’t at my desk, it would be a non-issue because they’d just email me or try again later. It’s typically never urgent, and if it is they could text me to get me to come back from wherever I was. 99% of the time if I’m not at my desk, they’ll never actually contact me about the thing they were going to ask for because they figure it out before I get back.

    And no, wearing headphones does nothing. I could be wearing headphones and eating and checking my email or wearing headphones leaning in and squinting at a massive spreadsheet, people will still start talking to me loudly so I can hear them over my music. Mostly it’s the visitors that do this (vs my actual coworkers) but it’s completely baffling to me.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Is there another location you can take lunch, or are you required to be at your desk? That would be my first suggestion.

      If you have to be there, I’d stop them the second they walk up and they have that look in their eyes that they’re about to ask you for something, and say “I’ll be done with my lunch break at 1:30 if you’d like to come back then.” Don’t even let them get a toehold of a conversation.

      1. Anonsie*

        There’s nowhere else go to, unless it’s warm enough outside to just sit next to the parking lot I guess.

    2. jade*

      I don’t know if this is weirdly passive aggressive, but can you put up a sign that says “at lunch, back at 1:30”? I feel like people who can’t see the obvious (headphones, sandwich, newspaper, etc) need something in their face.

      Where do other people take lunch?

      1. fposte*

        Oh, I like this one! Or have it say “I’m not in. I’ll be back at 1:30.” Then if people ask you stuff, you can just point to the sign and smile.

        (I’m also assuming you’re not clocked out when this is happening, because then you can just pull out the “it’s illegal” guns.)

        1. Anonsie*

          Oh my good golly gosh there is no way that would be tolerated here. I would get a serious talking-to.

          1. fposte*

            Well, shoot, because I liked that idea. I think that unless you can find a way to signal big-time that you’re not working, you’re going to get this when you’re at your desk, because “at your desk” reads as “on duty.” (And lots of people work with earbuds in, so I can understand that people don’t see that as a sign.)

            If you can’t think of anything else, you might chat with your manager to see if she has any ideas; unfortunately, her idea might only be “don’t eat lunch at your desk.”

              1. fposte*

                So everybody gets bothered when they eat lunch, and you get bothered more because of where your desk is?

                Yeah, no good answers, sorry. Kind of sucks that your work doesn’t have any place to eat, though.

                1. Anonsie*

                  When you put it that way, I’m not sure why I asked in the first place actually. NO WAY OUT *screams*

                2. Anonsie*

                  Though I can’t tell if it’s my skewed perception, but I don’t think other people get near so many work-related lunch interruptions as me. I’m the only person in my role, for one (the only non-admin or phones person) and the nature of my work results in a little more of a frantic pace from the people I support.

              2. Artemesia*

                Could you scout out an empty desk somewhere that you could use at this time? As long as you are sitting there by the door, you are ‘on’ — so finding someplace to go is the only real option.

          2. Jennifer*

            We have signs here and they really don’t do much good, if it’s any consolation.

            I fear the only options you have are to sit in the parking lot or in your car. There really isn’t any way to get people to leave you alone during a lunch if you are at your desk. If you’re physically there, you’re pretty much “on call” to be working, really.

            1. Anonsie*

              Man I don’t even have a car. When the weather is nice I just sit next to the parking lot outside, but the weather is not nice most of the time. It’s not my favorite thing to do though.

    3. TheAssistant*

      I had this problem at my first job! Consider it the thanks you get when you’re a helpful and productive person.

      One thing that worked really well for me – whether I was eating, or truly absorbed in another project, or competing with deadlines with little wiggle room for “oh, this will only take five minutes” is by listening to the question, writing it down in front of the person, and saying “I can start this at 3p” or whatever. 99% of the time, the asker got the picture and understood her request would be fulfilled, just not instantly. I’d get my lunch, and he or she would get the info. And if it really was URGENT, then I didn’t mind doing it right then. But that was very rare.

      I feel you on the headphones – I work in an open office layout now and do a lot of data entry that requires concentration. I use headphones to tune out the office chatter, but folks ignore them/get put out when I don’t hear someone talking to me (mind you, people tend to stand immediately behind me, out of sight). Same process seems to work, and also I get bonus points for not making mistakes when my colleagues do.

      1. Anonsie*

        That’s what I do already, but that only shortens the conversation sometimes. It’s more the frequency of the requests is really a larger issue than the length of them, though.

        And yeah, people have to come up entirely out of sight behind me the way my desk is situated. So if I have headphones on they have to really work to get my attention, but they still do even if the question is “where is [x location on this floor]?” or something that could be asked of anyone.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      If you’re not on the clock when you’re eating lunch, tell them “I’m not on the clock; email me and I’ll get to it when I clock back in.” If they give you any flack, say, “I’m not allowed to work off the clock–email me and I’ll get to it as soon as I clock back in.” Smile, lather, rinse, repeat.

      I had to do this at Exjob–the sales guys would come into the actual break room to ask me stuff, when I was 1) obviously eating, 2) sitting behind an enormous laptop writing (they knew what I was doing), and 3) wearing headphones. They got pissy when I sent them away. Too bad. I made sure I did whatever they wanted me to do as soon as I got back to my desk, however, so they couldn’t bitch to my boss that I didn’t.

    5. Xarcady*

      The sign’s a great idea. If people persist even though the sign is up, use Katie the Fed’s wording, or, if you think that would not sit well at your workplace, try turning around, pointing to the sign and saying, “I’m at lunch. Email me the problem and I’ll get to it when I’m off break,” and turn back to your desk.

      It will take a while to train everyone. Expect to be interrupted at lunch for the next several weeks. If you can take your lunch at the same time every day, that would help. After the 10th or 11th time of walking over to your desk and getting told to email you, the rest of the office should be able to start remembering, “Oh, Anonsie goes to lunch from 12-1.”

      I really wouldn’t expect headphones to solve this problem. People in my office wear them all the time. They expect to be interrupted when someone needs to talk to them.

      If you get a lot of questions about where people or things are, I’d post a map of your area somewhere easy to see as people walk into the space. Or small signs on the wall, like a hotel, that point out which room is where. That would not only save part of your lunch, but be useful all day long, as it would mean fewer interruptions for you.

      Maybe keep a log of the questions you get asked. If people are constantly asking where the paper cutter is, where John Boy sits and how to get an XYZ form, then the current systems your office has in place for those things aren’t working. Maybe the paper cutter needs to be moved out of the supply cabinet and on to a table near the copier. Maybe larger nameplates are necessary on cubicles/office doors. And maybe the XYZ form needs to be a printable PDF on the network instead of a paper form people have to hunt for.

      In other words, try to track the interruptions you get all day long, and see if there isn’t a way to prevent some of them by being pro-active about getting that information out.

      1. Anonsie*

        The thing is that people come in the front entrance and immediately ask for directions, so it’s not like they’re lost. There’s a ton of posted information that no one notices (no one reads signs man, no one) or maybe they just don’t care, I don’t know. I don’t mind if people ask in theory, it’s just over and over and over all day. When I need to concentrate or work on a big project I have to just move to an unoccupied desk somewhere else.

        But that’s not a solvable problem– it’s mostly the actual work-related requests that I feel could be headed off. And yeah, every single thing anyone could ever need is either publicly accessible or on our shared drive. Like I said, the overwhelming majority of the time I never hear these questions if I’m not at my desk the first time because they’re all things people could figure out on their own.

        1. fposte*

          People will almost always go first to the person over the sign. It’s just a human thing.

        2. Jennifer*

          Yeah, people don’t read signs. They get sign fatigue. My volunteer job is covered in signs and one year they made us all take a test on where each sign was found in the building. Hah, who knew.

        3. Xarcady*

          Is there any way to block you or your desk from view, right as people enter the space? A taller cubicle panel, a large free-standing sign, even some tall plants might work.

          I’d take this issue to your manager, framing it as, “I get so many interruptions for simple questions that I have to move to a free desk, when there is one available, just to get anything done. Can we hide my desk a bit or move me permanently, or do something else so that I’m not getting interrupted constantly? It’s affecting my work at this point, and I’d like that to stop.”

          Because clearly it is not just at your lunch hour that the interruptions are a problem. You’ve been very patient with people, but if the information is there for them to find, you need somehow to start training them to find the info themselves.

  128. JB*

    This might not be an option for you, but when I had this problem at an old job, I started eating in my car a few days a week. It’s not ideal, and you get strange looks. But at least I didn’t get interrupted.

        1. JB*

          Hmm. Do you have any place outside you could eat? That’s not really an option for me, but some places have a bench of something nearby that wouldn’t look weird for you to sit on, and you can tell people you just like to get some fresh air. Or some place in the lobby you could go? Once I had a job where I’d go down to an empty part of the bottom floor, not in the lobby but in the hallway that led to the public restrooms. That’s where I went to make personal calls so people couldn’t hear me complaining about my job, but it was also a way to get a few moment’s peace.

          I hope someone had some good options for you on what to say to people, because I’ve got nothing. :(

  129. Hlyssande*

    Holy crap y’all, I am so relieved that the go live date of the next wave of an application I work on has been delayed. I am one of three primary user testers/SMEs for it. We have some backup, but only for regression testing to ensure existing functionality.

    Since it was announced that it would go live somewhere late March/early April, I informed them that I had a non-negotiable weekend off the 26th – 30th. I am staffing a nonprofit convention and will be unable to assist in testing, especially in the very early Sunday morning window they push for every time (as my work shift ends past 2am Saturday night and you have to pay for wifi at that hotel anyway).

    The assistant project manager on this project is my former supervisor, who was informed well in advance of this when I requested the time off (back in January before dates were announced).

    And yet, they had it scheduled to go live during the one time I would not be able to assist. I was so frustrated.

    Fortunately, there were delays! First, they hadn’t even finalized/built all the requirements AND decided that a single week for testing in the lowest environment was appropriate. Wtf? There was so much that was undone that it was ridiculous. We had all reviewed the FRS/spec which appeared to be fine, but the developers misunderstood a lot or were waiting on clarification (which had never come to us SMEs who were the driving force for what was included).

    So it was delayed until the weekend after Easter! We’re still not out of the primary test phase 3+ weeks later, in part because of a serious issue with the test database.

    Phew!

  130. Trixie*

    Freelance blog writing, any suggestions what rates to quote when just starting out? Someone I worked with in the past recently asked if I’d be interested in this, thinking I’d be a good fit because I’m familiar with both the industry and local community. Entries would be either 350-450 words or 450-1000 words. I’ll search this in the archives as well.

  131. Nachos Bell Grande*

    Has anyone had to do an HTML test for a job interview? I have one on Monday (thanks to everything I’ve learned from AAM, naturally) but I’m worried about what to brush up on.

    Thank you in advance <3

    2. ZenCat*

      Any idea what platform it will be? Editing code? From scratch notepad style? Dreamweaver?

      I have to do panel interviews and work samples in specific programs and programming. Ahead of time I’m informed of the evaluation tools but not if the subject.

      To determine what to brush up on id comb the job description and what the company does as well as their current website. If they need design… Then those elements which would be different from needing a storefront, splash page, gallery,etc. If there is SEO then those tags. That’s what I’ve done to see how some of my design work should be (if they have graphic or font types I need etc).

      1. Nachos Bell Grande*

        Oh yeah, that would be helpful info :) It’s HTML within articles in a CMS. I’ve been hand-coding since I was 15 (though I don’t think my Angelfire tribute to Dawson’s Creek will impress anyone) so I’m 99% sure I’ll swing it no problem, but that 1% of me wants to study something.

  132. KS Thomas*

    I wrote a comment about a month ago regarding my coworker who was constantly on the phone with disruptive personal calls. She finally was spoken to by her boss as well as the head of HR. Apparently the head of HR had been in the work area and heard her cell phone go off with a very loud ring, so he decided right then and there to deal with her. Subsequently she continued to receive personal phone calls on her cellular but would then get up and go into an empty conference room. During one of these calls, her boss went looking for her, found her in the empty conference room, and, well, she apparently was written up. The good news for me is – I have moved to a different work space as someone left the company and I now have a much quieter spot. Win Win all around.

  133. onnellinen*

    I need a bit of a confidence check that I am doing the right thing.

    I had an interview recently that, from my point of view, went well. I recently got a follow up email that was to keep me in the loop about a few timing changes on their end, but was still positive without being definitive (I am doing my best to mentally move on, since you never know!).
    At the same time, I’ve recently been put forward to participate in a training program through my current job. I have said yes, and am pursuing it, because though it was a positive experience, the interview may never become more than a good interview. I know that, logically, I should continue to pursue this training program until I have accepted an offer. I definitely don’t want to turn down the training opportunity prematurely, potentially shooting myself in the foot!
    Why am I having such a hard time accepting this logic? I feel guilty about the possibility of training (at cost to my current company), and then leaving shortly thereafter. But if I stay, this training will be really good for me, so I’m hesitant to pass it up. Any tips to put this out of my mind?

    1. Dawn*

      Every time you start to feel guilty about it, remind yourself gently yet deliberately that you’re awesome and you’re doing something awesome and that you’re moving past feeling guilty about it. Keep doing it enough, and you won’t dwell on it anymore.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Companies realize that can happen. It’s not up to you to fix that one. It’s part of business.

  134. ZenCat*

    A job I applied for and did not get past he phone screening and I think it was due to a word I used (we rather than I. Example: ‘we look at the analysis and chose a direction.” The recruiter pointed this out and asked what part did *I* do; I thought I had been clear I was the only one doing the role I was applying for but was describing (as asked) for a story about a time I did Large scale design (where I’m at the mercy of coordinating an entire launch team and needing parts from everyone to do my job – documentation for example on developing or UA stage software deployment. I use inclusive language as a habit to develop ownership in all of the engineers, managers, clients, etc I have to interrogate for information. Anyway the job is still posted after a few weeks. I updated my portfolio to include launch examples (previously they’d not seen the portfolio as nothing in there was specifically relevant at the time). Do you think I could apply again? Possibly by writing the recruiter a short note? Something like I saw it again, feel really strongly about it (and the company is amazing, let me just say as an aside I’d love to work hard for them) and wanted to include some samples that may showcase some case studies they’d find relevant? It’s desperate isn’t it? Worst case scenario is she thinks I’m obnoxious right and ignores it or asks me to go away,etc? This job requires not only oersistance but continued growth, reevaluation… So maybe ? Any thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      Don’t apply again. You’ve applied and you’ve been rejected, and it’s just going to look weird to apply with a different package than you had a few weeks ago. The fact that you feel really, really strongly is not relevant to their job decision, and mentioning it to them suggests that you’re worryingly unaware of this. I also don’t see why it had to be your word choice; presumably after the interviewer asked what you did you told her, yes?

      This is not the last job they’re going to post or the last possibility you’d have at interacting with these people. You can reapply if they post *again*, but applying twice for the same job has virtually no chance of bringing you good things and a decent chance of bad. Just swear a lot, dive into the junk food of your choice, and move on.

      1. ZenCat*

        Yea she said it was the word choice and was concerned I may have done only a peice rather than the whole show, which my resume indicates…nut oh well :(

        Many Easter peeps have died for my sadness! Thank you for your reply.

        1. fposte*

          Ah, okay, if she explicitly said that’s another matter. But I also think it’s weird that she’d take that amiss, because it’s a pretty common locution and it’s easy to follow up on; might be a sign that this wasn’t a good fit. (And if they’re that picky that’s really not the place to try the reapplication thing on.)

          Peeps are made for slaughter, so go forth and lay waste to them.

  135. Beancounter in Texas*

    I’m looking to potentially transition into a different career (analysis of some sort of data, undetermined yet) and I happened to see a job posting for bookkeeping with more benefits for which I am nearly perfectly qualified and it’s closer to home. But I don’t have the “polished professional” look as stated in the ad – I’m more smart business. Given that I’m intending to leave this career in the next couple of years, should I bother applying for the job?

    1. GOG11*

      Unless what they’re looking for is something that makes you feel it would be a poor fit, I would apply. If you fit all the other criteria and this is just another on the list, that is a pretty good match. Most candidates won’t be a perfect fit.

      If the things you list allude to a cultural mismatch, that would give me more pause.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        The thought crossed my mind too. The position is working with C-level peeps, and I get the impression that I’d be the one-person department, which is appealing. If the culture really orients around the professional dress code, then it won’t be a good cultural fit for me. Of course, there’s one way to find out!

    2. ZenCat*

      What do they mean about look for bookkeeping? I know little about the field.

      I think it is a,wats good to apply and state in the cover letter you’ve got the experience and are looking to move toward that specialization. Some companies really like the chance to mold people. We hired a junior that I was able to mentor for a period of time and she is learning skills while being specifically matched to our company’s particulars. Old habits die hard as they say.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        The ad reads, “a polished, very professional bookkeeper…[that] will be working with C-Level executives, investors, and support staff.” Copying that here, I now see why they want someone polished: investors. I wouldn’t want me dressing “smart business” to face investors either.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        My inclination is no. My ideal job would include wearing denim jeans every day. Since I’m mostly happy in my current position, I’m thinking I’ll apply just to see whether it is worth upgrading my wardrobe.

        1. Colette*

          I probably wouldn’t apply – they’ve said it is part of the job in the ad, but you don’t want to do it. Similarly, if the ad says “pager rotation”, I just skip past it.

  136. Kate*

    Hi Everyone,

    Can you please give some advice on motivational letters? I’ve read posts here (of course), but it’s still a hard concept me to grasp. I’m not getting interviews, and when I showed my resume to an ex-colleague, who works at HR, she said that it was fine. So the only thing I could think of is that my motivational letter is far from good.
    Thanks in advance! I could really use some help.

    And have a nice weekend :)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Have you tried modifying your cover letter based on what you have read here so far?

  137. katamia*

    So I got offered a job this week that I’m in the process of accepting. There are two shifts available, one at oh-god-o’clock in the morning and one at a more reasonable time. (Trying to be vague in case anyone from there reads here as well.) Training starts at oh-god-o’clock, and I’ve been tentatively assigned that shift after training as well. I replied saying that I’d be more interested in the shift at a reasonable time, and the response to that was basically “We’ll see based on how you do during your probationary period and based on what the company needs.” (Again, trying to be vague about wording for anonymity purposes.)

    Does this mean I’ll probably be working at oh-god-o’clock for the entire probationary period? What can I do without sounding whiny to help encourage my being put on the later shift other than rock the job (which, tbh, I have questions about my ability to do at that time of day, being a night owl and having worked an oh-god-o’clock job in the past where I could barely think)? I’m pretty miserable at the thought of having to be on that schedule for months on end because when I’ve done it before, I’ve never had any energy for any of my hobbies and basically just stared at a wall and slept a lot more than usual when not working. Ugh.

    1. Colette*

      I assume there are two shifts because they need coverage for both, so I’d clarify what the actual chances are of working the later shift – it may be an “only after you’re the most senior person in the early shift and someone on the late shift quits” thing.

      1. katamia*

        Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions on wording? When I interviewed there, it was at a time when the two shifts overlapped, so I have absolutely no idea whether it’s half and half, most people work early while a few people work late, etc.

        1. Colette*

          Just ask – how many people work the earlier shift? Do people rotate between shifts often? How long does it typically take before people move to the later shift?

          You may not get an accurate answer, so I’d recommend listening to what they don’t say as well as what they do.

    2. fposte*

      I suspect this is a pay-your-dues kind of thing and that they have fewer people excited about oh-god-o’clock than they have staffing needs for. I think you accept that this is how it is during your probationary period and use that time to get the lay of the land and to impress people as best as you can in the middle of the night, and then at that point you make a more informed case for your move to civilized hours.

      Now, if you really wouldn’t take the job if you never got out of oh-god-o’clock, that’s something to think about and mention, because it sounds like a real possibility that you may not.

      2. katamia*

        Oy. This is extra frustrating for me to hear because I’ve been freelancing for the past couple years and not really making enough to support myself, while this job has benefits and things I honestly never thought I’d have in my life, which is why in the short term I’d be willing to stick it out. But the thought of having to do oh-god-o’clock for two-plus years is making me a little sick. (And I definitely don’t have a resume good enough to leave after a very short period of time.)

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      It sounds like they are going to put you on oh-god-o’clock, not just for the training but afterward, for an indefinite period of time.

      If that would make you miserable on top of unsure of your ability to do an awesome job, I would seriously consider passing on the job altogether.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I was having a conversation with my husband about shift work last night. We have a friend who works swing shift and now has to go to 5-8s after over a decade of 4-10s. He’s p.o.’d for sure. My opinion was that if you’re going to be in a field that requires shift work, you ought to get used to the idea that you’re going to work shifts you don’t like. Even if you get the good shift, you might have to later go to the bad shift to get promoted. Or, your company might start rotating shifts, or just restructure the shifts. When we first got married, my husband’s job went from 5-8s swing shift M-F to 3-12’s days F-Sat-Sun.

      1. katamia*

        It’s not retail or a call center or a field that’s traditionally associated with shift work, though. Having two shifts does make sense for this particular company, but it’s really not something that would be standard.

      2. AnotherAlison*

        (Someone came in and I posted before I was done. . .)

        So, if I was the OP, I’d probably pass on this opportunity. It sounds like this shift is something she would not be happy with, and my fear is even if you get off it quickly, it might come back around for you later.

  138. Nynaeve*

    I need some advice. My department has been without a boss since June. The last round of hiring was mismanaged: our director offered the job to the person our department liked least, and he was never able to start because his military discharge paperwork was never processed, the second choice turned it down, and the director opened the search again rather than offer the job to the internal candidate who applied from out department. So Morale and trust are not great right now.

    I’M now on the search committee. I don’t know if this means we’ll get more of a say in practice, but I’m determined to try. Any suggestions for good interview questions to ask? Our ways to alleviate put Morale? Thanks!

    Sorry for tips….phone.

    1. Nynaeve*

      Ugh, sorry… last few sentences should read: “Any suggestions for good interview questions to ask? Or ways to alleviate poor morale? Thanks! Sorry for typos…phone.”

      Never again, I vow, shall I try to post from my phone during my lunch break. :-/

    2. Not So NewReader*

      What are the problems that are causing morale to tank? Maybe ask the person if they have any experience or thoughts on how to deal with those types of problems.

  139. RandomName*

    My company has an opening in my department for a position that will report directly to me. This position will manage one person but her title will be the same as her title with her current employer (she does not have any reports at her current employer). We extended her an offer for about $5,500/yr. more than what she is making now, but due to her increased insurance premiums for a better insurance plan, the net increase is only $1,500/yr. However there are other benefits: much closer commute, better retirement plan, the workload is higher level and more challenging (she is very bored now), and she likes working with me.

    The only issue she has with accepting the position is the title. She has had the same title for the past 4 years and is worried that continuing on in her career with the same title may harm her job search later when she is looking to advance to a management level role. In our field, most companies require a certification, which she expects to complete in October of this year, to hold a management position. If I had never come to her with this job, she would have started looking for a higher level position once she completed the certification, but there’s no way of knowing how long that job search would take. In addition, we’re a very small department and there’s not really room to grow here unless someone leaves, so moving up within the company is possible, but could take many years to do. Also, modifying the title isn’t an option at this time because even though some of the duties are higher level, there are some basic duties as well, and in our field this title is the most appropriate.

    I think this job would be a good bridge between her current position of lower level responsibilities to her end goal of attaining a manager level position because not all, but some of the duties would be higher-level and she’ll have a direct report. I think she could easily show how some of this position’s duties are the same as the responsibilities required in the higher level position she’ll be seeking in a few years, and she can illustrate these parallels in her cover letter. In our field titles are often misleading anyway and I’ve seen a lot of resumes of people with higher level titles that have low-level responsibilities.

    Has anyone else ever had their title hold them back from advancing? Any success stories I could pass on to her?

    1. RandomName*

      I also want to add that I don’t want her to take the position if it will hold her back. If she accepts the position, I don’t want her to regret it later because it’s hindering her career development.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Lack of skills and experience is what SHOULD hold someone back, not their title, but in my previous position, I could not get a new title. In 6 years, I went from analyst to senior analyst, while my coworker (my former manager who was demoted to the same position) was assistant director of strategic planning. That would be a huge difference in looking for the next “strategy” position, even though we were doing the same work. Honestly, I haven’t seen many success stories with this type of thing. Hopefully some others will be more encouraging, but what I see more often is the opposite. . .someone works somewhere that’s more generous with their titles and gets a job they are really not quite qualified for. (I’ve seen that both work out okay and be a spectacular failure.)

      1. RandomName*

        Thank you for your insight. I’ve also seen it go the other way, where a person with the same title as the person I want to hire moved on to a role the next level up and now has the same title I do. It would work out that way, or it could work out the way you describe. I really just don’t want to be responsible for derailing this person’s career, but of course, I would love to have her come onboard, having worked with her in the past. I’m not sure what I would do in her situation, either.

    3. some things i do for money some things i do for free*

      Question: what is keeping you from giving her a better title? Is it a matter of red tape and bureaucracy that would require changes to all manner of systems? Or is it just that you know the norms, and according to them, she doesn’t qualify?

      If it’s the latter, and you really want her to come work for you, than maybe you should just give her a slightly better title. People do negotiate over titles, and it seems like a silly thing to lose a good hire over. It’s not like it’ll knock the planet out of orbit.

      1. RandomName*

        If it were up to me, I’d change the title. But my boss is very involved in things like this and he wouldn’t go for it. I’m hoping down the line if she ends up coming on and ends up taking on more responsibility we can change it at that point. But I can’t guarantee her that now.

  140. I had to pick a username I guess?*

    I originally posted this under a different section, I think it probably should have gone here instead? (I’m new to this site, sorry if I’m getting it wrong)

    How do you recommend representing your tech skills when you have what would probably be considered the normal amount of tech knowledge for someone your age (a couple years out of undergrad)? I’ve always wondered because, like, I don’t specifically know how to code or know programming languages or specific packages (like I probably wouldn’t list adobe creative suite for myself; I’ve used it, but hardly at all). But I’m at that weird position of someone in their mid-2os where I feel like I know most pertinent stuff and, whatever I don’t know, I would know how to find/learn. I’ve never been sure how to list my technological skills in a way that doesn’t cut me out of the running for anything, but that also doesn’t misrepresent myself or oversell my knowledge. I once described my skills in an interview as “Better than my mother, who can’t work her iPhone; but worse than my brother, who is a computer engineer for Cisco”.

    1. fposte*

      What kind of jobs are you applying for, and what kind of tech skills are they indicating they want?

  141. Guinness*

    I’ve been working as an Office Manager & Executive Assistant (to the CEO) for about two and a half years now. Over that time, my responsibilities have changed pretty drastically – I’ve gone from answering phones, scheduling appointments, assisting with bookkeeping, taking board meeting minutes, etc. to doing all of the bookkeeping, preparing board financial reporting, working closely with the board and committee chairs to design agendas and ensure action items are implemented, being responsible for all of the HR functions for our organization, etc.

    In the past my boss (President & CEO) has offered me a change in title… I’ve declined because I think my title is fairly descriptive of what I actually do, and because I find the “Executive Assistant” title gives me currency with other EA’s (we’re a non-profit who works with government partners and corporate leadership types for organizations across the city/state/country… so it is important for me to maintain friendly relationships with the assistants to lots of CEOs and higher up government types, and I feel like having the same title helps with that in a way… but maybe I’m wrong on that.

    Anyway, I’ve now been in my position for 2.5 years, and I love it, but i’m worried that having a bunch of years working as an Executive Assistant on my resume will make me look more junior than what my role actually is. I also don’t want to be pigeon-holed as an assistant/admin type for the rest of my career. (I’m 29 and have a Master’s degree – I’ve previously held a full time office manager role and a marketing/development role in another non-profit.)

    That’s a super long way of asking if anyone has any suggestions for a new title?

    1. Beancounter in Texas*

      I think people who have been around the block will recognize that executive admins have a ton more skills than answering phones and scheduling appointments. I read an article once about successful executives who have such great working relationships with their assistants that the assistants relocate with the executive when they start a new job at a new company.

      I see your concern about being pigeonholed later, but I suspect that anyone who reads over your resume will comprehend fairly of what you’re capable.

      1. Guinness*

        Thanks… I actually think something similar (re: following the boss) might happen for me. as the former CEO of my company is making noises about bringing me on to work for him at his new company (which is still in the baby stages of existing – not nearly ready for employees yet.)

        I think I’m just weirdly self-conscious about having “assistant” in my job title at 29 (which is partially fuelled by seeing all of the awesome things my friends/colleagues my age are doing.) Sigh.

    2. S*

      A good EA is INCREDIBLY hard to find and it’s a job that most people will recognize as being much higher in skill level than the word ‘assistant’ suggests. An EA is not an office receptionist. I’d suggest keeping the title because in this case, it’s very indicative of what you do.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      What about Special Assistant to the CEO? “Special assistant” is generally a higher level role that often involves research and special projects and might describe what you’re doing well.

  142. Underling*

    Ok, second question of the day: I had an interview this morning, set up through a recruiter. When I arrived, it turned out I was being considered for three positions. Two are very similar to what I do now, the third was quite unexpected and different from the other two. I’m interested in all three, and especially the unexpected one, which would be supporting the woman who interviewed me (an HR role). I’ve never worked in HR but have a solid administrative background, and I had an overall positive interaction with the woman and think I might enjoy working for her. We ended the interview with her inviting me back for a second round and she said she would wait to hear from me as to which of the three roles I’d be interested in.

    If I express my interest in the HR position, will that color her perception of my enthusiasm for the other two? I’m nervous how my response will be interpreted.

    1. JB*

      I’ve never been in that position, so I don’t know, but do you think it would hurt to briefly say what you’ve said here? You’re excited about all of them, especially the third, but the fact that the third is most interesting to you isn’t an indication that you don’t have much interest in the other two. So if they decide you aren’t a good fit for the third, you hope they’ll still consider you for the other two.

    2. jamlady*

      I have been in your situation. If your recruiter is good at his/her job, then they will do their best to push for the one you choose, but if it falls through, they will push for one of the other two. They’re putting you in this position so they know what they’re asking. In fact, they’s likely be surprised if you had zero interest in the other two. In this situation, you just explain that while all of the jobs sound like they could be a good fit, you’re intrigued by job #3 and would like to pursue that position. Like JB said, just make it clear that you’re choosing 1 of 3 great positions and that you would still like to be considered for the others if you’re #1 choice doesn’t work out. A good recruiter will see this through properly.

    3. Lizzie*

      You should definitely speak up and indicate your interest in the job you really want, without totally writing off the other two. She asked, after all! I think JB said it very well.

      But I totally get your apprehension. I was in a similar situation during my last job search – there were 3 open positions, all at the same level with the same employer, that I was qualified for. Positions A and B were pretty garden-variety (and matched my previous experience fairly closely), while Position C was a bit more unusual (and matched my experience less exactly, but was in an area I was interested in). At the time, I was really feeling powerless and didn’t want to risk coming across as inflexible or “difficult,” so I said I was equally interested in all of the positions, even though the one I really wanted was Position C. I was worried that – even though they asked me point blank which one interested me the most! – that expressing that interest would mean I wouldn’t get hired at all, and I couldn’t afford to be unemployed. So they hired me for Position B, and I felt really disappointed that I hadn’t spoken up. (The happy ending is that within 48 hours they decided to shuffle me to Position D, which wasn’t even on the table when I interviewed, and then 12 hours later to Position C, which is the job I’ve been doing ever since. And I love it as much as I thought I would!)

  143. Anonia*

    So I feel like I need help with my job applications. I am too poor for professional help at the moment, so I was looking at my community college’s career center (community, not student oriented).

    “This course is designed for Professionals in Transition. …how to create a Professional Image…importance of a Dynamic resumes and a strategic Self-Marketing Plan.”

    All of those capitalized buzzwords scare me. But I find a lot of the very good advice on this site to seem less applicable in my region or at least in my experience. Some local employers will be looking at the resumes, so I’m wondering if it’s worth a shot.

    1. fposte*

      Local employers looking at resumes sounds like a reasonable thing to go for. If it turns out to be a cover for somebody’s Dynamic Resume Service you can always high-tail it out of there.

      I don’t know about regional, but certainly some fields are more on track with AAM than others, and if you’re applying to those local employers then knowing what they are looking for is the best information you’re going to get.

  144. Alexandrina*

    So I’ve finally decided that I need to go get a degree, having gotten by on a ged for years (I’m 27).
    Strange reasoning, I’m sure, but I realized that I’ve avoided college because I want a reason, an ambition, that makes the debt rational. I have come to the conclusion, though, that all my ambitions are nebulous, at best. So getting some education and playing it by ear may be what happens.
    I just want a job where my attention to detail is important, not a good way to make sure the sandwiches are put together right. And I’d love to go and do an english teaching job in Japan. That requires a bachelors degree. Well, my job offers tuition help, and every year I ignore it because I don’t know that I’d ever use a degree… But, there are a lot of associates and bachelors degrees that can be used in almost any field I’d like. (And a work visa to Japan requires *any* bachelors degree)

    So I reached this conclusion yesterday, have decided on a local community college that does associate degrees designed to transfer to any college easily. But deadline on application is only a few days away and I’ve got two essays to write….
    I’m thinking the personal victory one can be a retelling of the time I fostered two sick kitten and one died but I nursed and force-fed the other one to health… but is that too sappy?

    1. RidingNerdy*

      Does your job’s tuition assistance program only cover pursuing education related to your current job/field? Look into that.

      1. Alexandrina*

        Nope, covers everything… They offer money for anyone ‘bettering themselves’ as a charitable thing, so strings are limited to ‘only accredited schools’.

    2. Beancounter in Texas*

      Pulling heartstrings can be a successful way to demonstrate you’re human and be memorable. I think that showing perseverance in the face of a blow to morale (one kitten died) to succeed in saving a life is a pretty good personal victory. Don’t be overly dramatic about it, though. Good luck!

    3. jillociraptor*

      I’m excited for you! I hope this opens the doors you want…even if you don’t quite know what those are yet.

      For the personal victory story, if I were reading your application, my guess is that I’d be looking to assess your resiliency and perseverance, so if it were me, I’d think about a story in which I accomplished a goal that required a lot of perseverance.

    4. soitgoes*

      I dropped out of high school and got my dipoloma through a night school program. Yes, it was a diploma and not a GED, but my high school transcript looked funky nonetheless (I went from having a full 8-class rundown of grades my junior year to only having passing credits for the state-required courses my senior year). It can be done! Especially if you managed to take the SAT or ACT somewhere along the line. I finally finished my MA last year, two months before I turned 29. Go for it!

    5. BeckyDaTechie*

      A good entrance essay can be about *any* topic; all you stand to lose with the fostering topic is that the person who may read it hates cats. That said, when I’ve worked in academia, most of the point of those essays was to assess where your writing and critical thinking skills are, often to see who might need extra help before a student gets in over his or her head. So, keep yourself focused on what fighting their illness and persevering past a sad death after weeks of lost of sleep etc. taught you that’s applicable in working situations. Pay attention to your grammar and usage rules. Check out the Stanford University Hume writing center website for help with how any book citations and bibliographies should be formatted. Such details change every few years, and institutions have preferred methods (usually MLA or APA). (Not my alma mater or a former employer, just a good resource.)

      But, I’d just like to point out, as an occasional sandwich customer, the person who understands what “just a little mayo” means is *always* someone I’m glad to see at the counter. Some of us appreciate that attention to detail, even if we don’t say it. Or, like today, when I reviewed a coffee place where every single employee I interacted with dropped the ball somehow, the little details that are missed (dirty plates, not clarifying which cheese item I wanted, long waits to order and to fix the mistake because talking to friends is more fun) are obvious enough that someone complains… or just doesn’t bother going back.

  145. RidingNerdy*

    How do you move past the feeling of obligation toward an employer?

    I’ve been in my current position for 8 months. It was a step up in responsibility (looks great on my resume), but a step back in pay. It’s gone just ok. I’ve learned quite a bit, but am not totally happy. It was a newly created position for my org. My boss seems ecstatic about my performance and comments often that I was a great hire.

    An HR professional to whom I submitted my resume during my earlier job search reached out to me with a position for which I’m a perfect fit that carries with it a substantial ($10-15k) pay increase. It’s a job in an awesome industry.

    I’m moving forward with the next steps in pursuing this opportunity, but am having horrible fits of guilt and am feeling obligated to stay in my current role. It would be a significant impact on my org’s operations.

    Any thoughts or advice?

    1. RandomName*

      You’ve been in your current position for 8 months, has your time with the employer been for the same amount of time or did you move from another department. It sounds like you’ve only been with your employer that long, and if you move to this new employer but are unhappy and want to leave after a few months, you could look like a job hopper and could have a harder time leaving that job. If you aren’t concerned about that though, then don’t worry about how your current employer will continue on without you or feel guilty. I’ve thought the same thing in the past, but the companies/departments I’ve left didn’t crumble without me and your company won’t either. I think once you explain the huge pay increase and opportunity your boss will understand. Just make sure you give them as much notice as possible. Two weeks is the rule of thumb but I think most managers really appreciate it when you give them longer notice periods.

      Love your name by the way!

      1. RidingNerdy*

        I’ve been with this organization for 8 months. I am mildly concerned about being seen as a job hopper, but I’ve got solid experience, references and credentials to overcome that, I think.

        1. RandomName*

          You shouldn’t feel guilty at all. My old boss (partner at an accounting firm) had the realization that everyone is replaceable after another partner who was located in another office and was the only partner in that office literally worked himself to death (he had a heart attack while giving a presentation). This partner worked crazy hours year round and my boss was sure after he died that they would have to shut that office down and that they would lose most of the clients. That didn’t end up happening. The staff in the office helped to complete the audits and tax returns and the firm moved a partner in from another office to run everything. After my boss saw that things kept going without that partner, for a little bit I noticed he scaled back his own work habits and even took vacation. He eventually went back to his non-stop work style, but it was interesting to see he made some changes in his own life, albeit temporary, when he realized that everyone is replaceable.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think Alison’s said it a few times recently (and I agree) that you get one free pass. If your résumé looks like 3 years, 5 years, 8 months, 4 years, that’s great. Any future potential employers will view the 8 months as a blip or a fluke.

      You will look like a job-hopper only if that 8-month stint is not exceptional (i.e., 1 year, 2 years, 8 months, 6 months, 1 year).

      1. RidingNerdy*

        That makes good sense to me as I reflect on resumes I’ve received for hiring positions. I’ve got 4 years, 2.5 years, 5 years and now this 8+ months.

        1. RandomName*

          Oh that’s a good work history timeline then. So even if things don’t work out at this new place I don’t think you’d have trouble moving on from it based on your length of time with prior employers.

  146. De Minimis*

    So, I’m applying to jobs….saw one that was promising, but I notice their job application process asks point blank if you’ve ever been terminated. I was terminated from my job in public accounting just over 5 years ago. They give space to explain, but I’m wondering if answering “yes” will result in some kind of automatic disqualification.

    I don’t think lying is ever a good idea, but am not sure what I should do. I do know a similar question was asked for my background check for my current job and it wasn’t an issue.

    1. Treena Kravm*

      I think you have to check yes if you were indeed terminated. But were you terminated, or laid off?

      1. De Minimis*

        Eh, it really was a termination–things were complicated by the effects of the recession [might have had more opportunities to develop and gain experience had there been more work/less competition], but I really just wasn’t a fit for the job.

        1. Treena Kravm*

          Well, I would feel better that there’s a space to explain. To me, that indicates that someone would be reading them. If it was an automatic dis-qualifier, why would they ask for anything?

          If it doesn’t request a date, I would make sure to add one. In a lot of places, a firing around the recession was the functional equivalent of a lay-off, so if the year is included, that might give you a leg up as well.

  147. JB*

    I’ve never been in that position, so I don’t know, but do you think it would hurt to briefly say what you’ve said here? You’re excited about all of them, especially the third, but the fact that the third is most interesting to you isn’t an indication that you don’t have much interest in the other two. So if they decide you aren’t a good fit for the third, you hope they’ll still consider you for the other two.

    1. JB*

      ARgh, I did it again, should have been in response to De Minimis. I’m going to repost this there.

        1. Underling*

          Haha, I got it. Thanks for the input! I’m in the process of writing my follow up email now, and I’m going in the direction of saying across the board that I’m interested in all three and look forward to figuring out which is the best fit.

  148. Anx*

    How can you assess your writing skills?

    I ask because I know that I have some unusual syntax sometimes. It’s much work in email and on the internet than in regular life. My SAT verbal skills are high. I was consistently the go-to person to write things in some of my organizations and groups where there were no resident writers. I recently had an instructor tell me I had a gift, while I was terrified to submit the paper because I was sure I’d embarrass myself with my writing skills. I cannot proofread well on a screen (at least not on my laptop).

    A received an email recently from my community college’s career center advertising a part-time, entry-level position. There was no experience requirement and it was for the largest non-hospital STEM employer in the region. I didn’t apply for it but it required “exceptional writing skills.”

    How can I make that assessment? Put me in a room of MFAs and most English and Communications majors and I would hardly call myself exceptional. But among my classmates in my current program, I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m a good writer. It’s such a subjective thing. I don’t want to misrepresent my skills, but I also don’t want to miss out on excellent opportunities.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I think you’re worrying way too much about this. No one’s going to put “passable writing skills” in their job description, so it’s really just a way of saying that writing well is important to the job. If you’re a decent writer, apply. (I have a couple coworkers who can’t string together a grammatically correct sentence. I think you would know it if you were that person.)

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I feel like fposte would be a great person to weigh in here, but one thing I’ll say is that you can be a great writer without being a great proofreader. To me, great writing is about how it flows — your voice and your ear for language. I mean, yes, you obviously want to be able to proofread well enough that errors don’t distract from the experience of reading your writing, but in assessing your writing overall, I’d pay more attention to voice and flow and ease of reading and understanding your point than to whether you missed a word or something.

    3. fposte*

      I’m with the Alisons–you’re overthinking it. And you post fairly extensively here and I’ve never noticed anything particular about your syntax, so whatever you’re doing reads just fine. (And unless the posting specifically asked for proofreading skills, I don’t think they’re a factor here; also, most places that want you to proofread would expect you to print out at some point, because nobody sane does all on-screen proofing.)

      Your writing skills are good enough to apply. You don’t need to be the hiring manager here–let them make the call as to whether they want to hire you for them.

    4. C Average*

      This isn’t what you asked exactly, but when I’m proofreading something that REALLY needs to be good, I read it out loud. I catch so much stuff that way that I wouldn’t otherwise catch! You might try it if you’re worried about proofreading effectively.

      1. Anx*

        A few commentators here helped me a with a proofreading issue last week and I’ve been practicing doing it on a screen ever since. I wear glasses which can make computer screening especially dizzying. I’ve noticed that if I can’t read aloud, just verbalizing the words mentally seems to help!

  149. Good_Intentions*

    Third-Round Interview

    Hello, everyone!

    Thanks to Alison’s outstanding advice, I have secured a third-round interview with a growing nonprofit, but I do have some questions as I prepare for it.

    After the initial phone screening with HR, I received an invitation to a 90-minute interview with the CEO and said HR representative. It began awkwardly but concluded on a very good note, which led to my being offered the chance to attend a final interview. The third interview is again with the CEO.

    My concern is that after talking with me extensively about my experience and fit in the organization for an hour and a half what else the CEO wants to discuss with me. I am set to meet with him for an hour in his office, minus HR. How should I prepare? Should I bring my portfolio again with recent additions?

    Is it normal for the CEO to be a part of both rounds of interviews, but not other senior staff members? Is it odd that HR won’t be present for the final interview?

    I would appreciate any suggestions you may have.

    Thanks!

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      We rarely do third round interviews, but will occasionally for high stakes jobs. The third round is never with HR, it’s a sit down chat with the highest level decision makers. In our case, our purpose is to flesh out what doing the actual job would look like…..kinda like a meeting that we would have if the person was already hired. Again, in our case, the third round is almost always when we’ve narrowed to just one candidate but we want to be sure (and her to be sure) that this fit is solid before proceeding.

      I’m sure other people do 3rd rounds with multiple candidates and I don’t know how helpful what I wrote was to you since, it’s just “in our case”. But I hope it helps some.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        p.s.

        it’s always meeting with people who have interviewed the candidate previously.

        1. Good_Intentions*

          Wakeen’s Teapots Ltd.:

          Thanks so much for your informative response! I am a bit worried about the high stakes and one-on-one nature of the interview. It’s a stretch position for me, so I’m feeling especially excited and vulnerable.

          Again, I appreciate your insight and willingness to share!

  150. Curious Nonny*

    Lately I’ve been noticing a lot of job postings asking to attach a photo with your resume and cover letter. I can understand if it’s an acting/modeling posting, but all the photo requests are coming from retail and office admin/reception jobs. It makes me uncomfortable and steers me (and other candidates) away from applying. Is there a polite way to send an e-mail saying this isn’t an appropriate tactic? I’m in California if that helps.

    1. jamlady*

      Which part of California? I grew up in LA – this kind of thing is common in the higher end areas of the city (and, according to a friend, OC and SD as well). It’s actually (horribly) necessary that you fit a stereotype as a receptionist or salesperson in those areas. Even dressing too “low-class” throws out clientele. My issue has always been how discriminatory this practice is (across the board), but it’s so common that no one ever says anything. Plus, even if you didn’t attach the photo, they’ll make the judgement during the interview anyway.

      I guess you could try and say something, but I don’t know how it could be polite. Even saying it makes you uncomfortable is going to (unrightly) annoy them. If you’re looking in the kind of culture as described above, I would just take my services elsewhere. You don’t want to work for them anyway.

    2. WJ*

      I’ve applied to jobs in both LA and SF and I’ve never been asked for a head shot, BUT my friend who is job-hunting for a medical receptionist job in NYC has been asked for a photo.

    3. soitgoes*

      I’m torn on this one. For certain products or services, it’s vital that the public-facing people appear to use the fitness equipment/skincare products/etc being sold. On the other hand, anyone can answer a freakin’ phone.

  151. FrauleinTaco*

    Like I imagine many people, I aspire to work abroad in Europe. (Much of what you read online is only in regards to teaching English abroad.) At this point, I’m a mid-level professional so ideally, I’d not disrupt my career and could do what I do (copywriting) internationally. I’d love to hear from people who have made this leap successfully. Is the best way to work for a company with international offices and then work with the intention of working my way towards a position in an office abroad?

    1. AnotherFed*

      I haven’t lived abroad as an adult, but did when my family moved around due to job changes. I think it partially depends on what you want to do long term, and how prepared you are. Do you want to go abroad pretty much forever, or just for a few years? An international company is a good option if you want a bit of a safety net in case you end up needing to move back closer to family, don’t like the country/culture as much as you thought you would, realize you miss American football and grocery stores like Wegmans, or want to spend time in several different countries. It also makes work visas a little easier – if you’re freelancing or trying to get directly hired abroad, it can be a PITA to get a work visa squared away, but an international company that moves people regularly should have that down pretty well or even have exemptions/loopholes depending on how they set up the position.

  152. Gene*

    In the other building (thankfully, not our double-wide) someone not only reheated fish in the microwave, but reheated SMOKED fish.

    Not going back in there today.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I don’t even understand that! Smoked fish? I usually eat that cold. On a bagel. With lots of cream cheese. Or on pumpernickel with a little dill.

      I really want to know what goes through people’s heads when they microwave certain things at work.

  153. and Vinegar*

    Update on the project with “Chris.”
    Thanks for the supportive comments from two Fridays ago around working with “Chris” on what was becoming a nightmare project.

    My update is that a couple of us jumped in and dragged the project to meeting a deadline. My boss checked in again to see how it was going, and we had a meeting. Took in my files and showed the nature of the work and the role I was filling, and why. My boss has lightened my load a bit, to make more room for this project, and gone to the person supervising the project to talk about how to offer Chris more direct supervision and support, and asked about how to keep better tabs on who was doing what when and how.

    Chris is very earnest, and wants to do a great job, but doesn’t have much experience outside the individual contributor role. Learning that helps me understand how to be more helpful in providing my part in the project.
    Thanks again.

    1. C Average*

      You’re very compassionate! On behalf of all the folks like me who are typically individual contributors and struggle a bit in project mode, THANK YOU. Your efforts will help him be better at it next time around.

  154. Felicia*

    So many comments by the time i get home from work!

    Anyways, a bit of background, a major part of my job is managing the trade magazine that my organization puts out. I set the themes , find the writers and assign topics and edit their content. I am supposed to find writers who are a part of the profession . Unfortunately, people in this profession are not writers, in fact many of them are extremely poor writers. Another important mandate is that they have to use research to back up their claims. I say this to them several times before I accept their commitment to write something. Yet some people don’t include research even though they say they will. Usually they aren’t that terrible, and I can make them better. This time is the first time i’ve had to cut something entirely because it was just not salvageable. So I have 2 questions.

    1. What are some good ways to tell the person that we cut it because it was horrible and be nice about it? We cut it because she doesn’t seem to understand what research means after various follow-ups, most of the time I couldn’t understand what she was trying to say because the sentences didn’t make sense in the English language and a good chunk of it was either entirely anecdotal, or entirely inaccurate. I don’t know how to say all that nicely.
    2. Any ideas of how to find people who do a better job in the future ? We do a call for volunteers from our members posted in various channels, contact members of the profession who have experience in the topic that we’re looking for, take suggestions from a panel made up of members of the profession, and hopefully find people who have written something (anything !) before. Very few of them have written before so I try to judge based on the topic proposal they have to send us though that is a different kind of writing and much shorter.
    This responsibility is new to me and I’m having a hard time finding good people to write. Apparently this was a challenge for everyone who’s ever been in my role which makes me feel a little better.

    1. Artemesia*

      ” I appreciate your submitting an article for the Empirical Truth Review but we publish research based articles not opinion pieces or personal experiences and so it isn’t a good fit for us. You might want to look at the Stereotyped Ideology Review or I Really Really Believe This to see if they would have an interest in your article.”

      Can you invite people who have published research papers or presented research papers at conferences to do shorter more accessible pieces for your publication? It is always easier to get a good article from someone who has written what you are looking for before. And when you invite them comment that you have had to reject a lot of articles lately that were anecdotal and want to be sure they are anchored in empirical research and that this is why you have selected them because of their admirable work in XYZ.

      Of course, it is always hard to get stuff for free especially when for academics it doesn’t count if it is not a refereed journal.

    2. C Average*

      Can you consider changing your model to allow an actual writer to interview and profile a subject matter expert, rather than asking the subject matter expert to create content? Or maybe have the subject matter expert collaborate with a good copywriter? Having non-writer subject matter experts write content seems like a recipe for poorly written content, honestly.

      But that’s not what you asked, so I’ll give you my thoughts on that.

      1. I think you say something like this: “Thanks so much for all your hard work on this project. Unfortunately, this content doesn’t meet our needs, and it would take extensive editing and reworking to make it publication-ready. The language isn’t accessible to our readership and the quality of the research is, frankly, disappointing. In order to publish this, I’d need to see more hard data and fewer anecdotes, and you’d need to address some areas that aren’t accurate as written.” If you think there is any interest on either side in working with her again, you could also offer to provide a marked-up version of the final copy, but I don’t think you owe that to her and that decision should be based on the future needs of the relationship.

      2. A lot depends on whether this is paid or not. If it’s unpaid and if you’re not willing to consider bending on the requirement that the contributor be a subject-matter expert rather than a writer, you’re likely to continue to see poor quality. (If your standard model is unpaid and you manage to find a handful of good writers who are subject-matter experts, I’d consider paying them something nominal and asking them to be regular contributors. That would ensure some baseline quality and also give you the benefit of working with people who know your standards, preferred format, timelines, etc., and can be depended on to deliver. Just a thought.)

    3. fposte*

      Is there a reason you have to give the specifics? For one reason, you reached out to them and it sounds like for unpaid work, so I wouldn’t want to sound like I was grading them; for another, you’ve been going back and forth over what needed to happen a bunch of times already and I think I’d be done with outlining the problems by now. My inclination is just to say “I’ve appreciated your willingness to keep revising this, but it’s ultimately not working as a fit for the magazine. Thank you for being generous with your time.”

      1. Artemesia*

        The problem is that the article was solicited — it is a real slap to reject an article you asked someone to write — this is why the requirements need to be super clear on the front end. And if they are not met, then the rejection has to be more gentle than if it were a submitted article. I’d be inclined to not only discuss the requirements but send them a couple of old articles that you consider models of meeting those requirements. Imagine working to write something for free that someone asked you to write and having it rejected? Big potential PR issues here.

  155. AvonLady Barksdale*

    It’s been a hell of a week. I have a bunch of friends going through terrible, major health issues– some their own, some are family members’– so that’s been on my mind (and I’m far away and can only check in occasionally) and my job kicked unexpectedly into high gear, with deadlines shifting and the client adding projects every day. I swore I wouldn’t do any work this weekend, but guess who will be doing at least some? Sigh. Just a lot taking up brain space.

    But the worst… 60% of my old department at my old company was axed on Tuesday. I knew, as did they, that layoffs were coming, but nobody realized how bad it would be. One of my good friends, who had a very specialized skillset, lost her job. I am trying to do what I can for them and leverage my networks– in fact, one of the junior people on the team emailed to tell me she’s thinking of moving to my city, and we’re hiring, so I encouraged her to apply. On Wednesday, I gave a glowing reference for someone else. So I feel good that I can help.

    However, part of this makes me feel so icky, because their loss can be my company’s gain. I used to work on the client side of my industry, now I’m on the vendor side. One of our biggest clients– the one I’m doing three simultaneous projects for right now– went through layoffs a few years ago and transferred the bulk of their work in that area to us. Basically, we’re available on a project basis as consultants/contractors for much less money than a full-time staff member. And my boss, while he’s incredibly sympathetic to all of the people we know who just lost their jobs after years and years of service, sees this as an opportunity for us to build our business. I completely agree with him! I even know how to get us “in”!

    But it feels gross. Like I’m almost profiting/benefitting from my friends’ misfortune. I know all is fair in business, but how can I get over this and myself? If you were the recently laid off person in this scenario, and your friend’s company ended up doing the stuff you used to do, how would you feel about it?

    1. C Average*

      A couple years ago my company laid off a small number of people with a very, very specialized skill set, and the layoffs got a lot of publicity. (They hadn’t been announced, nor had the demise of the product line they were responsible for.) Several of our competitors actually set up an ad hoc job fair in a hotel up the street from our headquarters, with the company’s full knowledge and tacit blessing. We’ve gone on to collaborate with some of these companies and to do business with our former colleagues.

      It’s all weird and incestuous, but the bottom line is people who needed jobs have them and businesses that had a need were able to fill it.

      It’s great that you’re both able to help your friends and to help your company. Sure, it’s opportunistic, but there’s no victim here. Everyone stands to benefit.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      You are going to feel both ways at the same time, how could you not?

      If I were the laid off person, I’d feel “hey I’d love to get a job at Avon Lady’s company! I hope she puts in a good word for me”.

      The best you can do for these people is actively distribute their resume, network for them however you can. I had terrible survivor’s guilt out of the 2008 crash when so so so many people I had known for two decades in my industry lost their jobs. I networked the hell I could for them and did manage to match two people to jobs (unfortunately out of multiple 10’s).

    3. Treena Kravm*

      I think you should feel gross if you’re the person orchestrating all this. But it’s happening whether or not you want it, so you’re just dealing with the situation as it is.

    4. BeckyDaTechie*

      Honestly? “Better AvonLady’s company than some shifty, outsourced cheap outfit that’s going to shaft my customers completely I guess. Maybe they’re taking consultants, given the uptick in business?”

  156. Changingmynameforthis*

    No question here, unless it is how you would’ve handled this. I had an internal interview for a promotion this week with my female (this is relevant) VP earlier this week. When we met, she mentioned my hair was lighter than she remembered it (I get it colored regularly and we had only met once before). I made a joke about not knowing how that happened, and she mentioned that she was wearing a wig because she had just finished her chemo.

    I wasn’t sure how to respond. I made some lame comment about not realizing it was a wig (which I hadn’t). We spoke for a moment about chemotherapy (my father went through it a few years ago) and she spoke about her breast cancer.

    It was a frank and brief (maybe a minute or two) discussion, but one that seemed strange given the circumstance — a job interview. We segued awkwardly into the interview topics and never referred to it again.

    Just wanted to share because nothing like this has ever happened to me before.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Yeeeeeah…. that’s awkward. It sounds like she wanted to talk about her hair or tell you about her cancer, and I can understand that, but at an interview, it’s weird. I think your response was perfect, saying you didn’t realize it was a wig, and asking about chemotherapy.

      My guess would be that she thought you might notice something different about her and she wanted to clear the air, but yeah, that’s weird. You did just fine.

      1. Changingmynameforthis*

        Thanks. Looking back, I am not sure what I could’ve done differently. I appreciate your insight.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      She probably felt self-conscious about the wig and decided to do a head-on confrontation of the topic. Getting that out of the way, allow her to talk about other things.
      I think you did fine.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I complimented a friend on her new “do”. It was a wig. She was having chemo. aww, crap. I did not know that. crap, crap, crap.

  157. A Ballsy Person Would Use Her Regular Name*

    I was here last week complaining about salary variances in my group. Well, raise letters went out this week, and I am satisfied and do not feel I need to ask for anything special (COLAs are normal here, but wouldn’t get me there, bigger jumps are difficult to obtain).

    I didn’t get quite to where I’d like to be, but my percent increase was double what I was anticipating, so I feel good about that. I also got a grade level promotion after only being in the position 6 months. Bottom line is I feel like this department recognized my work, and I’m making good progress on getting to the band that I want to be in.

    1. A Ballsy Person Would Use Her Regular Name*

      (Oh and thank you to everyone who weighed in on this last week. I felt I was a little defensive about my opinion, and I always hate that when other commenters ask for advice and then argue with everyone.) : )

  158. Lee*

    Yay! I think.
    I just got a job offer, I think I was their second choice. It’s not a dream job, the pay is only okay, the time off and benefits are okay but not great. I plan to negotiate that.
    My real concern: they never asked for references, so I know they never checked them.
    Is this a red flag?
    (I’m currently on unemployment, I’m a “trailing spouse,” as they say.)

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Alison would tell you that many people don’t ask for or call references, even though they absolutely should.

      I read a lot of Alison. :p It’s NBD.

      So, yay!

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My last job never checked references, and my current job sent an email to a mutual connection who said great things about me (BECAUSE I’M AWESOME) but it was nothing formal. Good luck!

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      In theory it could be a red flag, but there are also so many employers who “check” references in such a superficial way that they essentially aren’t doing much screening either.

      1. RandomName*

        Yes! One place I worked for only checked references by confirming pay and dates of employment. We weren’t allowed to even solicit references as a matter of policy for fear of litigation. But some managers did on the DL anyway.

    5. RandomName*

      It really could go either way. I worked for 2 places that didn’t check references. At one place I worked with some slackers and a boss that didn’t address issues. At the other I worked with great people and the best boss I’ve ever had (and if it weren’t for the reorg, I’d still be there today).

  159. ThatLibTech*

    Does anyone have any ideas/resources/possible search terms to search AAM in regards to handling references and past employers when wanting to move on from your First Career Job?

    I’m looking to move on from my current place of employment, but I’m realizing I’d be lacking a reference from someone above me (because I don’t want my employer to know I’m moving on). I have someone who is at the “same level”, but beyond that, not much? (I’m approaching someone I’m doing paid work on a contact to volunteer work who may be a reference for me, but I’m not going to hinge everything on it)

    There’s been a lot of good posts here in the last week in how to handle this, but they’re been more targeted towards people who have moved on from that First Career Job? Otherwise, my references are from non-career related jobs (one being working for the family).

    1. GOG11*

      Could you find a few non-current job references and then offer to have them check current managers once you have an offer (and hiring would be contingent upon references)? I’m not sure who else could act as references or which ones would be best among the ones you’ve listed to choose from, though.

    2. Trixie*

      In addition to searching AAM’s archives, there’s an entire folder on References with 86 posts. It’ll take some time to read through them but some great advice there.

  160. Aussie Teacher*

    Probably posting too late for anyone to see this, but I applied for my first job in 5 years! It’s part time (approx 3 days per week) but I’m going to ask how flexible they are as I’d really prefer 2 days or less. (I have 3 kids 4 and under so I’ll have to find child care for them if I’m successful).
    I redid my resume and wrote a kickass cover letter all thanks to AAM’s advice, and I’m confident my past experience will get me an interview at least.
    Now I wait….

  161. Schuyler*

    I’m trying to prepare myself for moving forward in my career path. Today at work, I was thinking: what’s the difference between a leader and a manager? I’m having trouble defining and differentiating the two, but they feel like different things to me.

    1. Kristen*

      Not really defining or differentiating, but I think a good manager should be a good leader, but a good leader doesn’t necessarily have to manage.

    2. GOG11*

      One of my coworkers recently posted a quote on linkedin to the effect of “managers light a fire under people; leaders light a fire within people.”

    3. Colleen*

      Managers push their people in the direction they want them to go; leaders go first and show them how to get there.

      But in practical terms, I think anyone can be a leader. A leader is someone who others look to for guidance on a regular basis and that isn’t always the person with the “manager” in their title. I think it is also used (as in my company’s “Senior Leaders”) to denote someone whose work is more strategic than tactical.

      Managers ensure that work gets done. They do this through motivating their people to do their best and ensuring processes are in place to help, not hinder, them.

      These are my thoughts.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Someone recently gave me a definition that I thought was right: Management is about ways of doing things that are proven to be effective. Leadership is more of an adaptive process — exploring unknown territory, clarifying aspirations people might not realize they have yet, ambiguity, and push back. But a ton of interpersonal dynamics go into management, which is where the overlap with leadership happens.

      I also really like this HBR piece by Bob Sutton:
      https://hbr.org/2010/08/true-leaders-are-also-managers

    5. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      To me, so different that they barely intersect. It’s easy to be a great leader and a terrible manager at the same time.

      Leaders have their eye on the road ahead. They break new ground. They create energy and opportunities and people want to follow them. This is often natural to them in that they couldn’t be any other way.

      Management is pretty much entirely different. There’s so so much to learn in order to be good at managing people and situations to best possible outcome for all. Management is nuts and bolts. What does a leader know about giving an effective annual review or counseling a low performing employee to do better? Nothing unless she takes the time to learn and practice and get better and better at doing so.

      I think it’s okay for great leaders to be terrible managers if they attract great managers to follow them and the leader is smart enough to hand off the management to the people who can do the job. Steve Jobs is an example that leaps to mind – one of the greatest leaders of our generation, craptastic manager.

    6. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      p.s.

      I think leaders who confuse their leadership abilities for management greatness are dangerous. I think that’s how a lot of toxic workplaces and orgs come to be. The person at the top doesn’t understand the basics about actual management and doesn’t hire or empower people under her who do. Maybe she hires more leaders, people like herself, and no one ever sets up a healthy, functional workplace because there’s no value placed on that.

    7. Schuyler*

      Thank you, everyone, for your responses! I haven’t been able to get back and check this until today. This gives me a lot to think about.

  162. Stephanie*

    Ok, doubt anyone will see this, but figured I would just share.

    I’ve mentioned I’m underemployed at one of the big shipping companies. So it’s below my skill and education level, but I’ve learned a fair amount about their operations and most people actually seem happy to be there (unlike at my previous jobs). And I am interested in the industry, so maybe it might be useful? Maybe?

    Company has a big promote-from-within culture and my boss asked about my background. We chatted and she was definitely amenable to getting me to something that’s a better fit. The downside to that is that there’s also a big pay-your-dues culture and she said I’d have to wait out my contractor assignment to qualify as an internal candidate, which ends this upcoming December with a possible three-month extension (I haven’t picked up they have any interest in converting me early). I could still apply as an external candidate, but that sounded like a bit of a crap shoot.

    I may or may not have headed home and applied to their competitor. Job is easy, but it doesn’t pay a living wage (I collected more on unemployment). I am breaking even financially (bills are getting paid, but I am saving very little). The weird hours are getting to me a little (I usually work second shift evenings, which is ok, but they’ve started having me work predawn mornings, which is less ok). And yeah, I wonder how the underemployment would play out to other potential employers (I can luckily truthfully make the job sound more high-level than it is).

    Anyway, I think I just wanted to vent a bit about that.

    1. soitgoes*

      I know what you mean. I don’t LOVE my job. The work is fine, and I’ve gotten a lot of really valuable experience here. The company is well-respected in an industry that I’d like to get into more deeply. My only hurdle is that I’m just shy of my one-year anniversary at this company. I’m at no risk of losing this job, so that’s not a concern, but it’s also a competitive industry and higher-paid openings are few and far between. I’ve always said that I’ll stay at this company for as long as they’ll have me (and that’s true, as long as they stay on their pay raise schedule), but I’m pretty sure that I’ll start looking at other jobs more intensely once I’ve hit the two-year mark. I’m basically waiting until next April to make a decision, so not so far off from your timeline (December + 3 months).

      A lot of us feel 100% exactly the way you do. Hang in there!

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      It bugs the crap out of me that you can’t get a job in your field of study. One, because I care about you and two, because son #2 is busy getting a degree in your field of study. And okay, 3, you are a woman and your field of study needs more women, for crying out loud.

      I can’t see why that path isn’t working for you but at this point, getting on a career track to *some* career is the most important thing?

      I have to believe that an engineering degree is valuable when progressing within a shipping company. I interact with management and upper-ish level management with both of the majors and all of the suits I deal with came up through the ranks. They are very proud of it, “yep, I started out driving a truck, we all did”. (To the point that they go back to driving a truck the few days before Christmas because “everybody drives then”)

      While this surely isn’t what you planned when you started out, the people I know at the majors are happy lifers. It’s a growth industry. Shipping logistics and engineering mindset intersect.

      This seems like a decent opportunity? December sounds so long from now but good lord, it’s already been too long.

      Beats the River.

      1. Stephanie*

        OMG, yes. Way better than The River. The “Number Days Since Last Injury” doesn’t constantly say “0” like it did there and I can listen to podcasts when I’m on the floor (I’m about half and half).

        I have my theories as to why the path’s not working. Engineering recruiting (especially at the big places) tends to be new grad with no experience or specific experienced hires and I don’t fit neatly into either category. The economy overall is sluggish and a lot of the companies in my area that hire engineers are in a down cycle (defense).

        Yup, one of my bosses started out as a driver (and then said he made less going into management, but got better benefits) and my other boss started as a loader. So it happens and there are multiple examples of it at my plant alone, so that’s at least reassuring. I actually was promoted into this role (kind of). I was training for a seasonal role helping the drivers, my now boss saw I was picking up the training faster than everyone and was like “Hey, we need someone in this admin role at the other facility. Interested?”

        There are definite more relevant roles that would fit my background. I think I just got frustrated because the promise of just even conversion from contractor status was so nebulous and it’s like “There are several things open now. Boo.” But some of this is my own impatience (and brokeness and boredom).

        On the plus side, I do like the industry and the company (mostly). And I find this stuff way more interesting than my previous industry. So that’s good.

        Are you in the LinkedIn group? I’ve actually been curious for a while to learn more about what you do.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          I’m not. If I connect my work identity to the me here, I’m going to have to shut up more here.

          If you ever want to connect personally though, throw out an email addy or whatnot and I’ll email you. It’s the digital trail I want to avoid.

    3. cuppa*

      It is a crapshoot to apply externally, but perhaps since you are a contractor there, it might be one step above someone coming in off the street?
      I don’t have a ton of advice, but I hope it works out for you.

      1. Stephanie*

        Possibly! Hoping for that. The HR guy just said external hiring was a little slow at the moment since the holidays weren’t as profitable as expected.

  163. Kristen*

    Happy Friday! I have been looking for a new job in a new field for almost two years now after graduating in May 2013 (accounting). I have had some success getting interviews and have received one job offer which I turned down. So all is not hopeless. I have heard before that a good job search should rely less on internet searching and more on networking (it’s all about who you know, etc). I do not follow this advice, mostly because my shyness/anxiety for networking stop me.

    So for recent job searchers (or not so recent), what job searching techniques have you had success with? Any tips to combat my fear of networking? Also, I saw a statistic this week that said about 70-80% of job openings aren’t advertised (and are filled apparently by people who have made the right connections or internally). Any thoughts about this?

    1. Stephanie*

      My answer is boring. Applying online has yielded me the most success. A close second would be referrals from friends (which is how I got my last job–my good friend’s then boyfriend’s brother worked at my old company and he referred me). Keep in touch with your college friends–in terms of networking, they’ve actually been the most useful.

      I am suspicious of that statistic. I can’t place why, but I am.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Where does that stat come from? If I wasn’t so lazy, I’d try to find out, but it’s Saturday morning and I don’t care enough to work at it.

        I think it’s a combination of myth + bad math.

        100% of all CEO jobs aren’t advertised. Most C suite jobs aren’t advertised, you use headhunters. A bunch of higher level, highly specialized jobs, you’d be more likely to use a headhunter than to advertise. In all of those, if you’re using headhunters, you are also likely open to all of the networking, industry connections, etc., that would bring you the right candidate.

        Meat and potatoes jobs, though? We run 20ish percent filled through personal referral. (Those jobs are still advertised, most of the time.)

        I ran an experiment in asking for referrals. I decided I was going to ask every single supplier I met with for employee referrals for our entry level rep job. I did this for a year and it wasn’t a casual mention, I made a pitch. Every single time. Out of 75ish pitches, I got *one* resume. He was fabulous, we hired him (for a job that was advertised).

        It might make an interesting column if you could debunk that statistical myth. Jobs that would be head hunted anyway shouldn’t be part of the stats. It’s the people looking for meat and potatoes jobs who get discouraged when that 70%-80% “hidden job market” stat is thrown about.

    3. soitgoes*

      I suggest emphasizing that you know Quickbooks (or learning QB if you don’t). If you aren’t great with networking, you might have better luck with generic office/bookkeeping jobs, and QB will open up a lot of doors, since it’s a really useful program and schools don’t tend to teach it in general computer courses.

    4. WJ*

      Applying online is actually pretty successful for me, but I’ve realized that it’s easier to get interviews from places that don’t have an ATS (applicant tracking system) and ask that you email materials to them. Not sure why!

      However, networking doesn’t hurt your cause; I have several coworkers who are actually helping me keep an eye out for anything they might hear about.

    5. Colette*

      I hate networking when I think of it as a job search tool, but I’m fine with it when I think about it as getting back in touch with people I know and like. Having said that, I haven’t had tons of success getting jobs through networking, but it does help keep me from falling into the “I’ll never work again” mindset.

    6. RandomName*

      Are you CPA eligible in your state? Having a CPA or being CPA eligible improves your marketability in accounting. Public accounting firms, especially the regional, national and big 4 firms hire their recent grads as staff accountants in groups twice a year. But most want you tracking for your CPA.

      In the south, where I live, the best way to get these jobs is to go to accounting firm networking events on the college campus you attended. At these events all the accounting firms and companies with large accounting departments set up booths like a career fair and the students or alumni walk around with copies of their resumes and talk with staff, seniors, managers and partners at the different firms and the partners and managers determine the students and alumni they want to set up interviews with. From my experience in public accounting and doing recruiting for the 2 firms I’ve worked for, this is the primary way inexperienced staff are hired, not by applying online. However, since you’ve been out of school for 2 years now and it sounds like you have not been working at all in this field, you’re not going to be as marketable as students who are approaching graduation.

      If you’re applying for accounting jobs at companies that aren’t public accounting firms, online is your best bet. But usually these jobs require experience, even in the lower level positions.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      For most people, even easy talkers like myself (I am not an extravert, I just know I can talk to anyone, it’s weird), networking is scary. But it doesn’t have to be, I promise you that! My grad school was really big on networking, and its career center was amazing– we were all required to attend a “class” on networking. They gave us amazing tools that served me extremely well. Here’s what it boils down to:

      – Start with networks that make sense. Alumni databases are a terrific start– if you can, search for someone in your location and job field. Friends of friends, friends of relatives… while you can randomly email people out of the blue, that’s tough
      – Never go in expecting to get a job or even an interview
      – Never send your resume unless/until it’s solicited
      – Simply ask for 15 minutes of someone’s time, either on the phone, at their office or over coffee
      – Tell the person you’re interested in their field and would love to hear more about their background, experience, job trajectory, and day-to-day work
      – Remember, most people like to do two things: talk about themselves and help other people
      – If you have one of these meetings, keep it short unless the person wants to keep going
      – Remember that it’s just a conversation– while you should be presentable, I wouldn’t necessarily wear a suit, and your language and manner don’t have to scream “interview”
      – Send a thank-you email
      – If they give you someone else’s name and suggest you talk to that person, reach out! You have an “in” now

      OK, so maybe that’s not so much boiling. But these rules helped me a lot. I got my first job in my industry through networking (albeit in a roundabout way; I networked my way to an interview, which led to an interview for an entirely different job, which led to them passing my resume to someone who was hiring), and I made several connections for friends and colleagues. I once did an informational interview with a college student, she kept in touch, and a year later I helped her get a job at my company.

      Good luck!

    8. Felicia*

      I’ve gotten most jobs I’ve ever had by applyin g online and most people i know got their jobs by applying online as well. I’m pretty sure that statistic is imaginary. The only time I got a job that wasn’t advertized was a two month contract that needed to be filled immediately, and I got it through a friend who I had met at my university job that I was still close with. Maybe a short contract to be filled immediately can happen like that . I also know people who got unadvertised internships which might work. But in my experience, and the experience of people I know, and in the experience I read about here, most people get jobs that are advertised by applying online, and most companies hire by posting online.

    9. Buu*

      Don’t do things expressly to network if you’re comfortable , if you’re like me it puts pressure on. I find getting involved in industry events even as a minion/runner/gopher is helpful, it gives reasons for people to talk to you and you end up meeting some interesting people. I’ve not gotten a job offer this way, but I did have someone I admire in the industry appraise my work and give me feedback. Plus I have made some new friends!

    10. Stephanie*

      I will also suggest this blog’s LinkedIn group. I’ve found people here to be very friendly and willing to chat.

  165. Childish Accountant?*

    Just found out a coworker of mine doesn’t like me too much or think too well of me. Man am I more bummed out….It really hurts because I always respected him and held him in high regard. Things were great when I first began but I have no idea what I did and I know it’s not in my head. I feel silly for being hurt but also worried that this can affect my job and whether I’ll be let go or not…

    1. Ruffingit*

      I’m in the same position except with my boss. I watched him do this same thing with someone else who did get fired. Thing is, I’m to the point now where I don’t care if I get fired. I’m tired of the ridiculous childish games. I’m too old for that.

      I hope things get better for you!

    2. Artemesia*

      It always feel awful to learn this sort of thing. Some jerk quoted a nasty comment made by a well respected senior colleague about me years ago and I still remember how icky that felt. The senior guy found out about it and tried to make amends, invited me to lunch etc — but you can’t unring a bell. Hope this doesn’t affect you more than to make you feel bad, that is bad enough.

      But do know that people talk trash about other people all the time — it may not be that serious a dislike just something awkward that you wish you didn’t know.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Does the boss like your work? If yes, I would not worry about coworker too much.
      How do other people feel about this person, have you had a chance to find out?

  167. Ruffingit*

    Tell me stories about your worst bosses and how you survived the daily pain. I’m in need this evening :)

    1. Stephanie*

      I can’t think of anything particularly egregious. My bad bosses were pretty garden variety bad–one was a poor communicator, one was a wimp, one was just kind of odd and distant.

      Anyway, I just told myself that once I (or he) left this job, I never had to see him again. That was usually enough.

    2. Libretta*

      I had a boss who was going out of town, and on his way out the door to the airport, told me that he had friends visiting who were borrowing his car. The car wasn’t terribly reliable, so if the car broke down, he had given them my personal cell phone number to call for help. I did not own a car, I did not know these people. They never called, but I spent the week being totally enraged. This guy would call me at 10 or 11 at night all the time just to talk ideas. THAT IS WHAT EMAIL IS FOR. Anyway, I had great coworkers who sympathized, there was a great deal of booze and venting. Eventually I went to his boss and asked for a new supervisor. My wish was granted, and I worked there another 2 years.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Worst boss called a meeting with about a dozen people (not his employees) to discuss a new group he was standing up to do specialized work. I and the others showed up thinking it was going to be an info meeting where they talked about the goals and looked for input and collaboration opportunities. Nope, he’d already transferred all of us into the group and the meeting was to announce we would be handing over all of our current projects and starting new tasking. Of course, since no one knew this in advance, it was a mess trying to wrap things up and hand them over because replacements hadn’t been identified to backfill us, and most of us ended up doing 1.5-2 jobs for several months. Things just went downhill from there, but he eventually left to take a promotion and his replacement is awesome.

    4. Nynaeve*

      This one boss I had (a school principal) was so stressful to work for. You never knew whether he was going to suddenly reward all the staff with something extravagant or go on a rant about some minor thing. He said he was open to suggestions from everyone, but in practice, he wanted to do what he wanted to do and wasn’t willing to hear no or that something he wanted wasn’t going to work. He kept getting distracted by various ideas and seemed to have no filter. Some of his ideas were really good, but others were terrible. Regardless, he expected everyone to drop whatever they were doing and focus on his new thing (but still, of course, complete the other billion things you needed to do). And then a few days or weeks later, it was like this idea had never happened, and he was on to some other new fad. No strategy or follow-through whatsoever. It was absolutely crazy-making.

      I survived by getting fired. :)

      1. Ruffingit*

        Nynaeve,

        Your survival method is likely to be mine as well. :) It’s a pattern with this guy. He did it to someone before and I’m next, I can feel it. It’s OK though, I’m emotionally prepared for that and frankly, it would be something of a relief considering how much this guy sucks. He’s passive aggressive and just generally bitter. He’s my manager, but he has no degree and no license and the job we do requires both. And, although he’s my manager, he barely speaks to me and won’t even make eye contact. He’s just odd and I don’t even care to try and figure it out. I’m ready to move on. So either firing or a new job for me, but in the meantime, it helps to know how to handle the daily “Oh seriously, THIS SH!T AGAIN?” feelings :)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I cannot describe the goings-on, it’s too specific.
      But every time some thing stupid would happen, I would tell myself “That’s okay, boss. You are making me a stronger person, while you are growing weaker and weaker everyday.”
      Then I listed off how I was stronger. One way is that I knew it would be a long time before I had a job that was so very demanding like this again. Boss primed me to be a damn good employee for someone ELSE.
      Because boss seldom said thank you or please, I became more aware of those words and how powerful they are. I learned something there.
      Because boss could not get along with others and play nicely, I learned a lot about how important that is. And I learned how to do that well.
      Because boss thought it was very funny to leave me to my own devices when I needed help, I grew into a strong problem solver.
      The common thread through all these things is that I knew boss would not sink my ship. I was going to go on and having something better. I was going to go to places where my contribution was recognized, etc.

      It’s been a while now. And there are still days where I have to sit and lick my wounds. I am not sure if it ever goes away entirely. The odd thing- I have to thank the boss for all the things the boss did NOT teach me, but forced me to sort out on my own. I have moved on. And boss remains in the same place. Be “smug” knowing that time is on YOUR side.

      1. Ruffingit*

        NSNR,

        I think you may have worked at my workplace. :) Sounds incredibly similar to what I am dealing with. Thank you for the good advice. I respect you deeply and always appreciate your contributions especially here recently when things have been rough (ruff) :)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Aww. thanks.
          It’ll be okay. I learned a lot about human nature. And you did, too. You will get to keep that. And it will do nothing but benefit you. I could have lived without the pain and the hurts, but I can’t say that I would be the person I am now without it. I feel it has shaped me a lot.

    6. BeckyDaTechie*

      I started out in theater, building sets and hanging lights, that sort of thing. One summer in my 20s I was The Girl in The Shop, because some places still seem to teach that females belong in the costume shop, box office, or painting things. I… was not educated in that environment. My carpentry and electrician skills are quite good, but I’ll be damned if I could convince my two “bosses” that my boobs weren’t a substitute for brains. The immediate “supervisor” was 2 years my Jr. and apparently interviewed quite well, but thought his position once he got there was to smoke cigarettes with the technical director (the person in charge of the construction schedule, making/finalizing the blue prints, buying materials etc.) and decide which actress he was going to try to go to bed with that week. He claimed his dyslexia made it hard for him to read blue prints, so when we got new plans, he took a smoke break while “Mark” and I figured out what we needed and how to proceed. Once we’d done the geometry and math, he inserted himself so it looked like he’d been working the whole time. But oddly, any miscalculations and screw ups were magically our fault. :/ So mentally I have to admit I kind of wrote him out of the picture entirely by Day 3 of a 2 month contract. I ultimately had to turn my position into a direct report to the T.D. because “Mitch” was so bloody useless, and suggested I just go clean something when I called him on an obvious mistake or had a different idea. (I think to this day if I could hit him in the face with a wet mop and get away with it, I would.)

      The T.D. assumed that I was there to bring him lunch, listen to him complain about the other tech staff, listen to him reminisce about the good old days running with a biker gang and enjoying strip clubs while he worked as an extra/carpenter and hair band roadie, and still somehow get shit done in the shop, without actually being told what he thought the priorities should be for the day. The kicker for me was his demand that mid-day check in meetings had to be held on the building’s loading dock so he and “Mitch” could enjoy their cigarettes and “still tell you little fuckers what to do”. But again, even when we were standing there upwind of the smokestacks, we didn’t actually get much instruction. Plenty of complaints and ash on our clothes, but not a lot of instructions.

      The other adult on the crew (we had a 17 year old “junior carpenter” as well) wasn’t all that fond of the set up either, so we finally had to just skip meetings and do things in the way that made the most sense to us to have a hope in hell of getting the work done on time without someone being hurt. Surprise, surprise, doing things “Mitch’s” way ended up with the girl he was sleeping with knocked out by a flying piece of wood (apparently the fact that they were intimate meant that she got safety training by osmosis or something) and me getting concussed by a piece of equipment that he hadn’t properly secured coming down on my head, the week before the teenaged volunteer/employee put a pneumatic staple through his hand because, again, safety training? What’s that?

      The contract ended on a remarkably sour note for me when we did the paperwork for my accident and the T.D. asked how it happened. “I was surprised to get this accident paperwork; I didn’t think you were doing any work anyway. Aren’t you just fucking that actor?” (And yes, I was, but not on the clock.) And yet, I stayed out the job. The show must go on, right?

  168. Miss Elizabeth*

    I need advice. I work in a non-profit organization and we recently got a new ED. The nature of my job is that I work with a few board members directly. I noticed the new ED seems to be avoiding me at times. Questions that I will know the answer to, the ED goes and asks other people. Most strange is that the ED emails my co-worker to pass along a message or question to me. I seem to hear about new initiatives second-hand. Is it just me or is something going on, do you think?

    1. MinB*

      Is it possible the ED doesn’t know that you would know the answer? If your nonprofit is anything like my nonprofit, everyone wears a lot of hats, so it’s not always clear who is responsible for what, especially to a new person.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I hope you have been introduced to each other…
      I think that you could go in and say something like “I know this is a whirlwind starting a new job-but I wanted to touch base with you. I thought you might find it handy to know that I do X, Y and Z here. I am also in the loop on A and B. And I can help you with C, D and E also.”
      Aim the conversation in the direction of “I am here to help you and the board. Here are the ways that I can be of help.”
      Clearly, you’ll have to tailor this to your setting. But work under the assumption that the ED just does not realize what you do. I think that other people around you are finding reasons to go talk to him so he is connecting with those people and not noticing you.

  169. TC*

    Hello everyone!

    I am decent typist. According to many online typing test, I do about 40-45WPM. I have a job interview soon and I will have to do a typing test. The position requires 30WPM. It is for an entry-level medical job. Are the pre-employment test like the online test? Are medical/hospital typing test different? I have been practicing everyday. I want to be prepared.

    Thanks,
    TC

    1. Nachos Bell Grande*

      I’ve had interviews where they’ve just plopped me in front of typingtest.com and told me to go for it. It’s going to be basically like the online tests. Don’t forget to brush up on your number pad typing, too :) Good luck!!

  170. MinB*

    So I ran into a weird thing today. I work for a tiny nonprofit. I was filling out a questionnaire for a grant program and there was a section on organization budget. I did a server search for the budget and in the same file with the year’s budget was a file labelled “MinB Salary Proposal.” Also “Staff Salaries.” Both files were edited in the last week, so this seems like an active consideration.

    Because our IT security is complete garbage, none of this was password protected. Well, I peeked. It turns out I’m the lowest paid person in the organization by far. $10-25K less per year than everyone else at my level. The proposal would bring me up $1-2 per hour, still around $5000 below the next lowest paid person. I know we’re not supposed to base pay negotiations on what our coworkers make, but I definitely feel weird about it. The offer isn’t surprising – I’m really good at my job and they just had me absorb the job of a coworker who left even though we’re experiencing record growth. I also saw on the budget that we’re projected to be $30K in the red at the end of the year, so it doesn’t seem like there’s room to ask for more and even if I did get it, it wouldn’t change anything.

    Any advice on how to react when this raise is offered? Even with the raise, I’m planning on job searching in the fall. By then I’ll have 2 years on my resume here and I should have accomplished what I wanted to here so I can move on to a place with, say, paid sick leave, more than two weeks of vacation per year for the foreseeable future, any sort of retirement plan at all, a living wage, and enough funding to actually hire enough staff for the job that needs to be done. Thanks for any advice!

    1. Libretta*

      I think it is totally reasonable to negotiate hard on the raise. I wouldn’t bring up the salaries of other people at the company. You absorbed another position and are doing a great job – so your position is that you have earned more and are worth more than the bump they are offering you. Also do some real salary research, and tell them that the going rate for your work (at nonprofits) is $X. I think your peeking counts as research :) , and they will not be able to honestly tell you that isn’t true. You are being underpaid, do not feel guilt about asking for what they are paying other people to do the same work.

      It is only March, the nonprofits I have worked for do huge fundraising in the summer, with charity runs and such. At my current place they call it fundraising season, and it starts in May/June and goes through December, when they have their big holiday gala. Unless you think your organization is really on the verge of shutting doors or making huge layoffs, I would not let that 30K number stop you from negotiating. You say they are in a period of record growth – get a piece of the pie!

      1. BRR*

        30k depends really on the size anyways. At both nonprofits I have worked for a ton of money came in at the end of the fiscal year (june 30th) and end of calendar year. Although that should be factored into budget projections.

      2. MinB*

        Thanks – researching was a good idea. Median pay for my position in my area is $2-4 an hour higher than even the max raise they’d be offering. Knowing that, I feel a lot better about countering.

  171. voluptuousfire*

    Well, I’m two weeks into my temp job and it’s going pretty well. I’m helping out an HR department transition new people in from a company they acquired last fall. It’s mostly filing and stuff, but I’m fine with that. It feel so good to have some money coming in and to actually be doing something.

  172. Anonymish*

    So, as I’m contemplating leaving my job in a month, I find myself thinking a lot about what I’m going to say in my exit interview. I want to leave on good terms, as I’m interested in returning on a contract basis or even returning full-time someday if the right role came along. But I also have concrete reasons for leaving that my company might want to hear.

    Which of the following, if any, would be appropriate to mention in an exit interview? I’d particularly appreciate the perspective of anyone from HR who’s been on the other side of the desk in exit interviews.

    –Due to the way ratings are distributed, I got a “meets expectations” rating nearly every year, even while I was getting praised by peers and winning company-wide awards. I’ve learned recently that on my team of six full-time employees, only one person can receive the “exceeds expectations” rating, and each year our manager would have liked to award it to more than one person but couldn’t. And I drew the short straw every year. This rating impacted my morale and interfered with my ability to advance to another role. I understand that not everyone can be above average, but in many ways I did extraordinarily good work. My recognition came in the form of compliments, thank-yous, awards, and increased responsibilities . . . but never in my evaluations. And that sucks.

    –I’ve also learned that my manager was scolded during HER annual review for not limiting my team to something closer to a 40-hour work week, and for working us too hard. At the same time, I know my team is at risk for having head count cut, and that my position may not be back filled. None of the work we do is going anywhere! We work hard because we are all conscientious and WANT to exceed expectations and fulfill our responsibilities! The company sends us a very mixed message when our annual review tells us “work harder” while our senior leadership tells us, via our manager’s review, “eh, don’t work so hard,” and, via reorganization efforts, “frankly, we don’t even need so many of you.” The only way to reconcile this mixed message is to know that the ratings are a numbers game only somewhat related to actual performance–something I’ve only recently learned, and not through authorized channels.

    –I felt trapped in a role I no longer wanted to be in, but that role was so specialized that no one seemed willing to take a chance on me to do something else. Or they did, but couldn’t get headcount. I aimed low and was told I was too experienced. I aimed high and was told my skills were too specific to what I was doing. And the meh ratings I received didn’t help, I’m sure. The job was a cul-de-sac–not where I want to live.

    –In the time I was in the role, we launched several new geographies for which I provide extensive de facto support, yet my role has never been made global. A shift from a geo-specific role to a global role typically comes with a title change and a significant raise, and given the global nature of my work–something EVERYONE on my team has acknowledged–I should have received both some time ago. I was even told by my manager that I would receive both, but it has never materialized. As a result, I feel undervalued and unrecognized. And I no longer believe my manager’s promises.

    –My manager had inappropriate professional and personal boundaries that made me very uncomfortable. She pressed for her team to socialize with her and attend her shows. She overshared with us about her conversations with leadership (which is why I know about the ratings, for example). She pressured us to be friends with her on social media. She became best friends with my peer and, because I did not have or want that kind of relationship with my manager, I feel that I never received equal treatment. My peer received projects hand-picked for her based on her talents, and the entire scope of our roles actually shifted to encompass my peer’s skill set. This put me in the position of either looking bad compared to my peer, or trying to develop a skill set I’d never had or needed in the role. (We have traditionally been writers, but my peer also has a background in graphic design.) My peer received professional guidance and mentoring from our manager during the many hours they spent together at work and on their own time. I rarely received ANY feedback from our manager. I kept the lights on mostly, and supported other people’s projects, often without enough information about those projects to particularly shine. I’ll admit that I became part of the problem: in this atmosphere of inappropriate boundaries, I withdrew from the team in a way I’m sure wasn’t helpful, and at one point I made an effort to reassert boundaries that was neither kind nor professional, but was borne of frustration at the situation. It was an uncomfortable and demoralizing position to be in.

    1. Colette*

      Let it go.

      You’re putting way too much emphasis on a rating, for one thing. Many companies have policies about how many people can get the highest rating. That’s really common, yet you’ve mentioned it in three of your four points. I doubt it’s holding you back the way you think it is, and things like company awards are more transferable anyway. It’s also really common for companies to cut headcount or delay promotions when times are tight (or to hit stock market targets). The company already knows people don’t like that.

      Your manager sounds not great, but … she’s also the person you want a reference from, and nothing sounds outrageous about what she did (although it’s certainly not appropriate).

      If they ask, mention the new opportunity and wish them well.

      1. Anonymish*

        Thank you. I’ll go with the “nothing to see here, moving along” approach. I’ve been biting my tongue for two years now and have a nice, thick callous, so it really makes no difference to me. Thanks for the perspective! I have never done an exit interview and truly didn’t know what kind of information they typically want.

    2. cuppa*

      Of course, this advice is contingent on your office culture, which you know best. I would definitely let them know that you would return. With that said, if it were me, I would stick to your performance and results, and how things played out from there, meaning telling them:

      Due to the way ratings are distributed, I got a “meets expectations” rating nearly every year, even while I was getting praised by peers and winning company-wide awards. This rating impacted my morale and interfered with my ability to advance to another role. I understand that not everyone can be above average, but in many ways I did extraordinarily good work. My recognition came in the form of compliments, thank-yous, awards, and increased responsibilities . . . but never in my evaluations. And that sucks.
      I felt trapped in a role I no longer wanted to be in, but that role was so specialized that no one seemed willing to take a chance on me to do something else. Or they did, but couldn’t get headcount.

      I would leave the things about what the manager was told in her review and the personal relationship with your manager because, since you’re leaving, your manager can spin that any way she wants and you would not be able to defend yourself. I just think that, because of your past, it has the potential to backfire on you. If people address it with her, she could say, “I never said that to Anonymish”. And it has the potential to discredit your statements.
      And as another person that feels cul-de-sac’ed (I like that!) I feel for you.

      Good luck!

      1. Anonymish*

        Would it be worth having a discreet conversation with someone else in the department? Here’s the thing: I see so many bad managers just keep managing badly because, politically, no one who reports to them is ever in a good place to say anything about it, and their own managers are oblivious.

        The way my peer and I have been treated and my manager’s lack of boundaries are blatant enough that people have asked me about them. (I haven’t responded, but I’ve let them ask questions, because I’ve long been curious about what other bystanders thought of all this.) This isn’t a matter of my manager and my peer having a beer together from time to time; they’ve gone on long road trips together, they have sleepovers, they have considered being roommates, etc., and this has all been casually discussed in our very collaborative open-plan office. It’s been awkward as all hell and is, honestly, the chief reason I am happy to be escaping.

        1. AnotherFed*

          What do you expect the outcome of that conversation to be? It sounds like you want your manager removed because you feel she has not been fair in her treatment of you due to your response to her friendship overtures. Even if the other person in this conversation recognizes that your manager has boundary issues, this request sounds even more inappropriate, and saying it on your way out the door is more likely to poison their impression of you than anything else.

          1. Anonymish*

            Thanks for this. Having read the responses here, and having read up a bit on other sites about exit interviews, I can see that my understanding of what they are and what they’re for was off-base. The venting session felt very therapeutic, so thanks for indulging me here.

            I think my best bet is to decline the exit interview and leave with a smile on my face. This is the course I plan to take.

            1. Ruffingit*

              I’ve never seen an exit interview where it was worthwhile to tell the interviewer how much the managers/company/whatever needs to change/sucks. It just isn’t worth it because honestly, if they cared, they would have done something long ago. You’re not the first person to leave this company because of ridiculousness like you describe and you will not be the last. They just don’t care, they have a systemic infection they aren’t interested in curing.

              And really, that can be hard to take, I know. But I also know, in my vast experience at this point with WTFuckery (my new favorite word) at companies, that by being honest in these interviews, you can only hurt yourself. The company will continue on as it always has. Think of it this way – your priority is not making known what they already know (even if they don’t want to acknowledge it), your priority is getting out of the toxic environment as unscathed as possible, resting up a bit to recover from the stress, and moving forward to whatever your next challenge is. You are leaving this company. Leave it fully and completely in an emotional sense and move forward. Bigger and better things await you!

        2. Stephanie*

          If nothing’s been said about it, I think you’d just risk coming across as a tattler. That definitely is an odd level of intimacy for a subordinate and manager, but I guess since the widgets still get out, TPTB probably won’t care. There are definitely organizations where people are that chummy and it’s just accepted. At my friend’s insular government agency department (nearly every hire was via a converted co-op and they all have tippy-top clearances so they can only *really* chat about work with a few people), they all hang out and date each other. Friend even said I was her only non-work friend (we know each other from high school). And it works for them (according to her, but I assume people who hate that environment are like you and leave).

          1. Ruffingit*

            Maybe it’s just me, but an environment where boss and subordinate are too chummy just doesn’t work for me because human nature dictates that the chummy relationship will influence work decisions. In that situation, especially if there’s only three or four people in the office, the subordinate friend tends to get the plum treatment while the others are ignored or outright frozen out. It just doesn’t work generally. I can understand it when everyone in a situation has very few outlets such as you describe Stephanie. But in general, it’s just a bad idea to be that close to a boss in my view.

            1. Stephanie*

              Oh, I wholeheartedly agree it’s bad. I am trying to imagine this boss giving a bad performance review or objectively assign projects. I was saying that the company seems to not care, so I’m not sure her complaint would go anywhere. :(

    3. Stephanie*

      Blah, why do companies insist on stack ranking? (Ok, I know the answer–it’s a way to cull the herd, for one thing–but it just seems guaranteed to breed discontent.)

  173. TC*

    Hello,

    Quick question. I left a job over a year ago. I went online to print out my W2 and it said terminated. I gave 2 weeks notice. Is this a general term for an employee who does not work at a company anymore?

    Thanks,
    Teesha

    1. AnotherFed*

      The online system said ‘terminated’ for your status? The W-2 form shouldn’t list employment status, so check you’re looking at the right form.

      We use terminated in our IT system to mean that the accounts are closed (not just inactive) and the person no longer works there. It doesn’t give any information about why the person no longer has accounts, so it’s the same for people who were fired, left to go work at another agency, resigned from the government, were contractors and the contract ended, etc.

      1. TC*

        Hello AnotherFed,

        The word “terminated” was not on my W2, it was just in the system they use to print out W2s online. I now understand why they used the word.

        Thanks for the info and easing my concerns!

  174. Bill I Believe This is Killing Me*

    Alison has often spoken of tone deaf companies, and I work for one. Our paid time off was reduced in 2015. Still no cost of living adjustments or merit increases, after several years. No one is happy about it, so what’s happened since then? We’ve been given some sort of discount codes for cheaper rates at expensive vacation spots, and told that since we’ve done such a great job, we’re getting a catered lunch. Uh, thanks. Not.

    1. Ruffingit*

      Ugh, that sucks. The discount codes are such a slap in the face since probably none of you could afford to go to the expensive vacation spots. And the catered lunch? Gee thanks, I can buy my own food if you give me a raise. I feel your pain here.

  175. Emilia Bedelia*

    So here’s the exciting quandary I’ve been in…. 2.5 weeks ago, I was verbally offered an internship with a company. I happily accepted, and was told that HR would contact me with details within the next week. 2 weeks pass without any response, so I called HR a second time and asked whether I had missed anything or when I could expect a response. She told me that she “had a meeting later with the manager regarding his decision” and that she would “get back to me”. Again, no response. The day after, I emailed the person I had interviewed with (the director of the internship program) asking whether he could give me any information. No response there either.
    I’ve continued looking for jobs since then, and I’m trying not to worry about the chances of not finding another internship in time, but my question is… what do I do? I know a verbal offer isn’t a “real offer”, but I would have expected some kind of notice if they decided to rescind the offer- is that reasonable? Should I just assume that they aren’t planning on hiring me? Are there any secret code words I can say that will convince these people to just talk to me? Should I send chocolate??? (I’m being facetious, but seriously, what do I do?)

    1. AnotherFed*

      It’s been under three weeks and you’ve contacted HR once and the hiring manager once? I would keep looking for jobs in the interim, and maybe contact HR once more a week from Monday. If they mean to hire you, they aren’t going to forget. Something could’ve come up to explain the delay. A couple of weeks is still pretty normal – people get sick, have vacations, or get swamped. It would speak well of them if they got in touch, apologized for the delay, and explained the new timeline, especially since they are at the offer stage, and if they don’t, it might be an indicator of how they treat employees in general.

      The one exception is if you get another job offer somewhere else. In that case, you should follow up with HR and explain that you’ve received another offer and either aren’t taking theirs or would need an offer in writing by day X to make a decision.

  176. CJ*

    I have a degree and internship experience in a specific field, but I stopped looking for work in that field many months ago in favor of applying to general office jobs, and I have a friend who I’ve told as much. This friend was previously, and continues to, email me job postings for positions in the specific field that I’m vastly under qualified for with encouragements about how they know I’m definitely qualified and should apply. Before I was just replying that I couldn’t apply to the jobs since I actually wasn’t qualified, and thanked them for thinking of me anyway. It’s starting to really irk me now because it’s random reminders that my degree and internships were a waste. I’m not sure how to diplomatically say, “Stop sending me job postings. You’re making me feel like crap.” Anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with it without sounding ungrateful and hurting their feelings? I’m not sure if I should just start ignoring the emails.

    1. Ruffingit*

      You can tell her to stop sending you job postings. “Cruella, I really appreciate that you want to help me find a job, but I must ask that you stop sending me job postings.” You needn’t give a reason for this, you can just say it. If she insists or asks for a reason, you can just say “Please just respect my request.”

      You could also skip that conversation and create an email filter for her and auto trash this stuff. Or, if there are non-job postings you need to see from her, you can create that filter and then go through it and delete the job postings in one mass deletion so it’s less irritating than receiving them all at once.

      Honestly though, I’d go with just asking her to stop. If she refuses, she’s not much of a friend.

  177. Bunny*

    Guys, I could really use your advice to help me make my application for this vacancy a winning one!

    So for about 4 months, I temped at a Teapot Brochure Distributor in Town, as an operations admin assistant. I did well at the role, the staff were fighting to keep me when I left (fixed term contract sadly), and privately advised me to get in touch if I noticed any vacancies with them in the future. The feedback they gave the agency for my work was so positive that the agency has been very enthusiastic about me since then.

    My current, different, fixed term temp position is coming to a close and I’ve been checking out agency websites. The agency that employed me to work for Teapot Brochures Ltd (TB Ltd) has a vacancy posted – it doesn’t specify who for, except that they are a “major distributor of teapot brochures”, it’s in the same Town, and the vacancy is identical to the one I did. The one difference is that it is a permanent position, which is all kinds of exciting. I am positive the vacancy is with TB Ltd, in the same department, doing the same job.

    What I’m wondering is…

    1- Do I make mention in my cover letter that I’ve guessed who the vacancy is with, because it’s the same job I did for the agency previously?
    2- Should I apply immediately and then make contact with the manager of the dept on the private contact info she gave me, or should I contact her first before applying?
    3- There are some key differences in the role, because the company had rules about not letting temps do some of the more sensitive work, but I’m confident I have the skills for it – should I make mention of those differences in my letter?
    4- Is there anything else I should be doing to maximise my chance of getting this?

    1. Bunny*

      *edit* I’ve also sent a heads-up email to my contact at the agency (not the person running this ad) to let them know I noticed it and am interested in it.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      1) I wouldn’t guess at the job. But it’s okay to mention that you have done similar work.
      2)I think you are saying you handled this one.
      3) Mention the additional skills you have that qualify you for the job. But don’t get involved in comparing temp job to perm job. Just focus on the perm job and what a great fit you are for the job.
      4)Just look at the ad and make sure you are responding to everything they are saying in the ad.

      1. Bunny*

        Thank you for the advice!

        (As it happens, they called me first thing this morning when they saw my application – it is the same job for the same company, and they want to meet me this week to discuss it! AAAAAAAAAH!)

  178. Beezus*

    I might repost this question next week, it’s pretty late, but thought I’d run it by the late weekenders here…

    I got feedback from my boss this week that sometimes I’m *too* detail oriented, and I need to do a better job at presenting information in a way that is more accessible to someone with less technical knowledge of our processes, especially when I am speaking to people at the VP and up level (which happens more frequently to me in this role than in the role I was in six months ago). I’ve recognized this problem myself, and it’s something I’ve been trying to do better at, but if he felt the need to mention it, I’m clearly not making enough progress on my own. Does anyone have any advice?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      My husband was a super technical person who hit the same issue. I suggested that he watch how much jargon he used. Look at people’s eyes for clues, deer in the headlights? They are not following you, I said. Also, I suggested shorter explanations that are over simplifications in reality. If people want closer detail their questions will telegraph that to you. Take an extra minute to make sure you are answering the actual question asked first and explain second. “No the report is not completed. We are lacking A and B and we need to finish the updates on C.” My theory is people like to hear the punchline first. After that they are prepared to listen to an explanation.

    2. Ruffingit*

      I always found it helpful with this issue to think about explaining things as though you were talking to 5th graders. You have to bring it down to the level of people who have no or little idea what is being discussed. So you break things down to understandable jargon and points. Drawing some analogies is also helpful. Take the technical and make it more real-world with some basic analogies. For example “So when chemical xyz hits oxygen, it becomes entirely liquid and flows downward quickly due to the trajectory of the engineering of the dohickey X. This is much like a person on a waterslide goes quickly down due to the way the slide is built and the water quickly flowing downward.” In other words, explain it with ideas people can easily understand.

    3. BeckyDaTechie*

      In addition to the above, prioritize the important parts. If you’re talking about chocolate teapot handles in a meeting and I’m in charge of chocolate teapot body design, I don’t necessarily need to know that Wilmer Flaberhagen started using gilt filligree in chocolate teapot handles in 1842. I need to know that Flaberhagen handles require a thicker outer wall to attach properly and that the chocolate should be of higher temper to allow the attachment points to be worked efficiently. So, as you’re going through prep on a topic or writing something for a meeting, jot a list of what a non-teapot handle person Absolutely needs to know to understand your points, in priority order. Then work those points in that order, and leave off stuff from the bottom if you’ve run out of time/room. This is harder to do in conversation, but comes with practice ime.

  179. T.*

    I recently joined a committee at work that organizes different volunteer and charitable initiatives for employees to participate in (if they wish). I’m starting to brush up my resume because I’m thinking of beginning a job search in the next few months, and just wondering if my work on this committee would be something I could include on my resume? It’s different than the work I do in my everyday role, and I think I’ll have the opportunity to take on leadership roles and event coordination tasks that might help me in my future search. Can this still fall under my current job on my resume, maybe with a sub bullet point for committee work? Or should it be under “other experience”?

  180. neighborhood friendly QA tech*

    I know this is a bit late for this weekend, but whatever.

    Shoutout to greatest boss ever!
    Seriously, I made a mistake, and he helped me clean it up, quite literally, mucking about in it with me at 6am.! He checked on me and my arm that I had hurt at home over the week, and stayed behind to talk to me when I told him I am distracted by personal issues at the moment and recognized that I was more frustrated with myself than usual.

    Thanks for being a great boss-man, boss-man!

    1. BeckyDaTechie*

      Isn’t it nice to be cared about? A little thank you note might not go amiss come Monday or Tuesday.

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