open thread – March 6, 2015

by Alison Green on March 6, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,574 comments }

{ 1,574 comments… read them below }

  1. cat*

    I have a crazy situation that I just need to vent about/get advice on:

    I’ve been job searching, but I’ve also been really picky – the position has to be in the right location, has to be stable and, most importantly, has to be a step up from where I am now. I’m also currently a Chocolate Teapot Strategist, so it has to be a strategy role.

    So when I got a call from Gunn, who works with an outside recruiting company, about a position posted with them that fit all of those requirements, I was really excited. It was a step up, had a direct succession plan (huge promotion planned for two years) and was in the perfect location. Gunn submitted me for the role, but then I didn’t hear back for several weeks.

    Then, pretty much out of the blue, I was contacted by Winifred, a second recruiter from the same company about that position – apparently, there was an internal candidate they originally wanted, but he bombed the interview, so they were searching again and now wanted to talk to me. Great! I set up an initial phone interview with Angel, the person who would be my boss.

    The phone interview went well except for one not-so-small thing: The job, which had been pitched to me as Chocolate Teapot Strategist, was actually Chocolate Teapot Sales Support. Meaning that instead of setting the teapot strategy, I’d be enforcing teapot standards – telling teapot makers exactly how curved the handles should be, the diameters of the lids, etc. That’s not my bag; I’ve done it before, I hate it, I actually left a past job because of it.

    So I told Winifred that the job wasn’t as described and that I didn’t feel great about how the company saw the position and the day-to-day duties of the role. But Winifred convinced me that Angel was probably just focused on sales support because he’d just returned from a teapot sales convention, so it was top of mind for him and everything she had heard was that it was a strategy role. I wasn’t sure I believed her, but I liked Angel well enough and I was still enthralled with the idea of the perfect location and a job with real stability and a succession plan, so I proceeded to the onsite interview.

    The onsite interview was a mess. I drove for 17 hours round trip because the recruiting company convinced me that Angel’s company wouldn’t pay for airfare but would pay for a rental car. When I got there and mentioned my trip to Angel, he was horrified and said, “That’s insane. We have plenty of cash and would have paid for a flight without a problem.” Then my meeting with Angel and his direct report, Cordelia, was only an hour long (after all of that driving). We covered many of the same things that we’d discussed on the phone, and I walked away from the interview feeling even more certain that the role was sales support, not strategy. Which I again told Winifred the next time I talked to her. But again, she was pretty dismissive of my concerns and offered to set up a final phone call between me and Doyle, the head of teapot sales and strategy. Fine, at this point I have nothing to lose, I figure.

    So I talk to Doyle and it’s achingly apparently that the role is sales support. I quizzed him on every aspect of the role and I hear absolutely nothing related to strategy. At this point, I’m not interested in the role and I convey that to Winifred.

    But apparently she doesn’t pass that on, because a day later she calls me to tell me that the company is making me an offer. Fine, I’m a curious person, send it over. Three days later, she does (as to why it took three days, I don’t know).

    I review the offer and it’s just not enough to ever make me want to do sales support – it’s a bit above what I’m making now, but with two fewer weeks of vacation (yes, I’m spoiled at my current company, which is part of why I’m being picky) and with no relocation assistance. There’s no way I can take the job and no way I would want to, given that, again, it’s not the kind role I originally thought I was interviewing for. So the next morning, bright and early, I call Winifred and tell her exactly that.

    That’s where the chocolate hit the fan. Winifred freaked out and got Gunn involved and both of them spent the entire day calling and texting me, harassing me for several hours until I finally called Gunn and straight up told him no. At which point Gunn got Lilah involved – Lilah, the head of the recruiting company. She sent me a series of very passive-aggressive text messages (including one that said, “Your behavior from offer to acceptance can influence the outcome of this,” like, 1) duh and 2) I already declined, so what other outcome are you looking for here?) and rude emails.

    Then, the next day, Lilah called the company that offered me the job to confirm that it was a sales support role (in essence, calling me a liar, or perhaps assuming that my strong rejection was just a negotiation tactic). Then, several hours later, she texted me to say, and I quote: “The offer has been rescinded.”

    Short of picking my jaw up off the floor, I don’t know what to do. After everything I went through, I certainly didn’t want this job, but I didn’t go into the process trying to deceive anyone – it was pitched as a strategy job and when it became clear it wasn’t, I tried multiple times to bow out but in the end just had to reject the offer. Now I feel like I’ve been fired after I quit, and I’m trying to figure out whether or not I should reach out to Angel directly to tell him all of this – I liked Angel, I liked the company, but the role wasn’t a good fit for me and in any other situation I feel like we could have just shaken hands and walked away amicably. But now I worry that the recruiting company has badmouthed me in some way that made Angel rescind the offer, and I’m not sure how I feel about that if I ever want to work for that company in the right role. Part of me says that I would never want to work for a company that lets a recruiting firm like this represent them, but part of me wants to clear my name.

    Sorry for the long-winded tale – thoughts?

    1. badger_doc*

      Well that bridge is burned… You said you tried multiple times to bow out, but from what you wrote, I didn’t see it what way. It seemed that you expressed concerns but went ahead with the schedule of events anyway. Hindsight is 20/20 though, and in the end it seems as though you should have said no, not interested after the initial phone conversation. My experience with recruiters is that they have no idea what the job really entails. It was hard for me with an engineering background to take anything recruiters say at face value until speaking directly with the hiring manager. After you did that and got the sales vibe, you should have withdrew from the hiring process instead of going all the way until the end. Not saying they are wrong in the matter–they are assholes for the back and forth, rude emails/texts. But for next time, if it is not a good fit, don’t let yourself be talked into completing the process. Good luck in the future!!

      1. cat*

        Totally agreed that I should have been more aggressive in declining any further interviews after the first phone call with Angel; however, Winifred did talk me into giving them the benefit of the doubt and I was a bit blinded by the location (it’s somewhere I really wanted to move to) and the “director in two years” aspect. In retrospect, I should have walked away long before the offer came through.

        The More You Know: I’m certainly going to be very straightforward when interviewing in the future.

    2. hildi*

      I don’t know anything about anything in this realm of job searching, but I don’t think you have anything to lose if you reach out to Angel directly and say pretty much what you said here: “‘I liked Angel, I liked the company, but the role wasn’t a good fit for me’ and I’m sorry the situation evolved the way it did.” Then just see how he responds.

      If his tone is markedly different, then I’d say that perhaps Angel and the company he represents wasn’t what you thought it was and now you know (good thing!). If it was the recruiting company that was the terrible middleman in all of this, Angel might be feeling equally embarrassed if he thought the recruiting company didn’t handle themselves well, either. The point is that you just don’t know what happened on the other side of the fence and I know that I wouldn’t want to walk away from that situation cringing and wondering how I was thought of – particularly if you had as good rapport with Angel as you feel like you did.

      It seems to me the damage is done and by reaching out you’ll not only feel better, but you may be able to lessen the impact of this weird little disaster (on their end). Good luck – I want to hear an update!!

      1. Newsie*

        It does seem that Gunn and Winifred have previously misrepresented Angel’s opinion before (17 HOURS driving for a 1 hour interview?!). So I like what hildi is saying here!

      2. Persephone Mulberry*

        Agreed, and based on the recruiters’ actions to date, I wouldn’t take their word for it that the offer was “rescinded,” either.

        I’ve never worked with a recruiter, is it normal for every step of the process to go through them? I always figured they were more of the front door, and then once you’d been selected for an interview, you’d work directly with the company for the rest of the process.

        1. cat*

          My understanding is that most recruiting firms own your candidacy and that they’re paid based on filling the role – so they have quite a bit of skin in the game when it comes to getting candidates to the finish line. This recruiting firm was particularly aggressive – wanting to check in before and after every phone call and interview, wanting to proofread my thank you emails, constantly asking me to rate my interest on a scale of 1-10, when I didn’t say 10, asking me what it would take for me to get to 10… It was almost overwhelming, and for any other job I probably would have walked away, but I was seduced by the fact that this (at first) seemed to be the perfect fit for me.

          On the other hand, I’ve had great recruiters who were super helpful and one who even helped me with a salary negotiation (netting me $20k more!) even though I didn’t land the job through him and he had no vested interest.

          1. voluptuousfire*

            The one thing I found was odd that the recruiter texted you. No real recruiter would text any of their candidates. That’s really very strange. I’ve worked with recruiters before and not one of them has texted me personally.

    3. some1*

      Gunn and Winifred are outside recruiters and don’t get paid unless they place someone — you. If they were ethical, they would have searched harder to find a candidate who wanted to do Sales Support instead of gaslighting you by saying it wasn’t Sales Support when everyone you would actually be working with was telling you it was. They suck.

          1. some1*

            I was actually placed in my current role by an outside recruiter. She never knowingly misled me about anything or tried to pressure me into anything I didn’t want to do.

          2. Liz in a Library*

            My husband got his last job through an ethical recruiter who was awesome: helpful, kind, smart, and all around the kind of person he’d love to work with again. They aren’t all bad, and if outside recruiting was more of a thing in my industry, I’d definitely consider it next time I’m looking.

      3. cat*

        Thank you for saying that, because while I know that rationally, the way that everything shook out had *me* shaken (and, frankly, feeling like *I* was the crazy one).

        1. some1*

          Even if they originally mistakenly thought it was a Strategy role, one or both should have looked into it, been honest with you, and no punished you for decining the role.

    4. SouthernBelle*

      First, what a hassle! However, knowing how I (and others) hate confrontation, I can totally see me going through something similar to that so as not to make waves.

      But my thought regarding the situation centers around the company that you interviewed with. I think I would let the company know about the experience with the recruiting firm. It’s quite possible that they’re not aware of how the firm is operating and would terminate their relationship with that firm if they knew. Since you liked the company and it’s leadership, I think that it’s worth it to share it with them; especially if it’s a company that otherwise meets your criteria and could possibly have a position that you’d like to pursue someday.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Where are they from? I was actually pretty confused – I thought Gunn was the company.

        1. cat*

          Sorry, I picked names from the TV show Angel, not realizing that the weird gender-neutrality of some of them could be confusing!

          1. Christina*

            I thought the name combination sounded familiar! Maybe the recruiters were secretly from Wolfram & Hart.

    6. Observer*

      I think you probably should have looped “angel” in on the conversation at some point. But that’s water under the bridge.

      Perhaps you could shoot Angel an email saying that you understand that the recruiters have passed along the fact that you declined the job, but it’s not clear to you that they explained why you did so. Since they took the time to interview you, and paid for your travel, you just want them to know what happened. Explain that there seems to have been some sort of confusion, as you had explicitly told the recruiters that you were interested in a sales STRATEGY job, not a sales SUPPORT or STANDARDS job. However, when you brought this up with them after your first pone interview, they they reiterated that this was primarily a strategy job, with just a touch of the other duties. When it became clear that that was not correct, you needed to decline the offer.

      1. OhNo*

        I think this is a good idea. Reach out to Angel, express your thanks for the interviews and the chance to come down and talk about the role and company, and explain that there was a disconnect between the way the role was presented to you, and the actual duties of the role, and that’s why you chose not to take it.

        I think it’s important to share this with Angel, at least to make sure that she has the actual reason why you chose not to take the position, and to let the company know that the recruiters are not behaving strictly ethically; they repeatedly misrepresented this role, which is going to make it difficult for them to find someone to fill it.

        2. Mander*

          I can’t see what you possibly have to lose by reaching out to Angel and explaining what happened. Maybe you don’t need to tell her all the details of how the recruiters behaved but I think the company should know that they were rude, misrepresented the role, and tried to pressure you into accepting the offer after it was clear you wouldn’t be a good fit. Also, if the recruiter tried to paint *you* as the jerk — which I don’t think you are, even if you could have done things differently — I think it could help you in any future networking if Angel knows the whole story, and hears it from you directly.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yeah, in hindsight, you should have asked Angel more about the strategy part of the job and emphasized that was what you were looking for (and perhaps you did and just didn’t say so above). But I agree that a short note directly to Angel, as Observer says, would be reasonable.

        1. cat*

          Totally agree – in hindsight, I should have been more vocal about what I was actually looking for when talking to Angel and Doyle. And going forward, that’s the main lesson I will take with me!

    7. TCO*

      That recruiting firm is ridiculous. I don’t think you have much to lose by sending Angel a brief note, letting him know how much you enjoyed meeting with him, and that it became evident through the interview process that this just wasn’t the role for you because the duties ended up being different than originally described. Don’t say anything else about the recruiting firm unless he asks–take the high road. Angel might catch on to the subtext anyway.

      I don’t think you have any reason to believe the recruiters when they say the offer was rescinded since they have lied to you several times about other things. Even if they did badmouth you to Angel, he met you in person and liked you, so he must know you have some positive qualities. If they did badmouth you, you might even regain some of Angel’s goodwill by sending a friendly note.

      1. The Strand*

        I wouldn’t take the high road, I would instead be extremely formal and polite… but tell them everything that they might need to know. Not that these people are cranks and so on, but that they continued to mislead you after you continued to try and confirm with them.

        You may not ever work for this company, but you would reap good dividends by telling them their relationship with the other firm is being abused.

    8. Steve G*

      I agree with badger_doc but this is also why, in my current job, I am not applying to jobs where I can tell its through a recruiter. I’m already turned off enough with recruiters from the 2008/2009 period when I got lots of call backs from recruiters, and went through their computer tests, etc….only to be left with the gnawing feeling that the job ad I responded to was fake…..

      1. cat*

        I usually subscribe to this policy as well! I applied to this role through an outside job site and was surprised when it was a recruiting firm. If I’d known it was through a recruiting company, I never would have applied.

        1. Steve G*

          A recruiter called me for a job that paid $14.50/hr when I was making $67K. WTF. You can tell from my resume that I have to be making at least in the mid-$50Ks, why the heck are you calling me for a job paying $14.50 without being embarrassed? That was weird….

          1. jamlady*

            Haha I had something similar happen for a position marketed at $50,000 and they were trying to pay someone $10 an hour. I actually laughed at her. I didn’t mean to, I was caught totally off-guard, but all I kept thinking was “maybe I should go get a job at Dairy Queen…” Haha.

          2. Anon for this*

            I really think they just send jobs to anyone whose resume dings a keyword. I get contacted by recruiters all the time for positions that are literally so far out of the ballpark for me I don’t know what they are thinking, except I can find mention of one thing that probably pinged them. Like they are looking for an Agile master and I have Agile on my resume because I used it at a recent job. But it’s extremely clear I’m no master.

            My husband also continually gets contacted by recruiters about a temporary job doing the same thing at the same company he already works for as a permanent employee. They aren’t paying attention. Well, some are, but it seems a lot more aren’t.

    9. SJP*

      Thing is though Badger I think really she doesn’t have anything to lose. The recruiters do seem difficult and the passive aggressiveness after you’ve declined the role is unprofessional. But if you have the email address of the Angel then perhaps email and just clarify.
      Something like “Good afternoon Wilifred,

      I wanted to email you to just clarify my position in the situation as unfortunately I do not know what X company have said. When I was first approached by either X and Y recruiter they specified the role would be a strategist role and I was keen to find out more information as I admire your company etc. From our first interview I really enjoyed speaking to you but I was unsure still of the role and figured that I’d like to come out to meet you face to face to find out more about the role and the company. I’d like to say at this point how much I did enjoy meeting you and that the company is great, I enjoyed the interview and thank you for meeting with me.
      Once I got home I did talk to Wilifred at X company and expressed my concerns that the role was much more of a sales support role and wasn’t for me. At which point I did say i’d like to bow out of the process but unfortunately it seems that wasn’t communicated to you by Wilifred. She did ring me later and told me about the offer for which unfortunately curiosity overrode me and in poor judgement I did look at what the offer was which im sure was viewed as rekindled interest in the role. Unfortunately I declined due to X,Y,Z as I am really keen to take my career in the strategic route but I really hope that experience hasn’t completely soured our relationship as I thought the company was great and would like to hopefully work for you in the future.
      In hind sight I could have done this, this and this differently but I wanted to clear the air.
      I hope I can stay in touch via Linkedin (or something)

    10. VictoriaHR*

      I guess I would have said in the in-person interview that the recruiting company told you that it was sales support but that you don’t want to do sales support, you want to do strategy. That would have eliminated any confusion right there.

      Also, I really need to binge watch “Angel” again…

    11. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

      … in the end it seems as though you should have said no, not interested after the initial phone conversation.

      Short of psychic ability on the part of the OP, I don’t see any way they could have known to do this. Frankly, the recruiting firms sounds like a big bunch of pants-on-fire liar-liars to me.

      I will echo what some other people are saying: if you really hit it off with Angel and liked his company, I’d send him an email and / or schedule a phone call and – using carefully chosen words – tell him why things went pear-shaped, but that you liked him and his company enough to want to stay on good terms with them. I’m guessing he’ll be open to a talk, because he’s probably wondering “What happened?!” Ask him how he made it out of that alley, and make sure he knows that your interest is Strategy. You never know – he might hear of a Strategy position opening up and give you a call.

      1. A Minion*

        “Ask him how he made it out of that alley”

        I would love an answer to that question as well.

    12. dd*

      It sucks that this happened. I could see why the second recruiter told you it was what you were looking for when it wasn’t — she probably works on commission.

      Do everyone in your area a favor and write an anonymous review about the recruiting firm you worked with and the bad apples you dealt with. You don’t have to give any details but just let any future applicants know that they lied about the position they were recruiting you for and you had to drive very far for the interview, and that it was a horrible experience.

    13. So Much Misinformation*

      I think it is reasonable to contact “Angel” to clarify that while you liked the company/people/location the role isn’t the right fit; and that you are open to the right role should one be available (assuming you are open to this).

      One caveat-I suggest that you not mention the recruiting firm at all. Your goal should be to represent your own decision, your own professionalism, and if true your future interest in a role there. Whatever was going on with the recruiting firm is essentially an unknown [guessing at best] and you are better served not to put yourself into the middle of that. Establish yourself as a great candidate for the future if this company is one you would like to work for.

    14. Audiophile*

      I’m always leery of recruiters. I’ve bad too many get me in the door, only to be told they have nothing for me.

      Or in the case of one; I did a phone screen and got invited in for an interview. I trudge out in the rain on Metro-North, and the subway, get down to Manhattan. Only to have a 20 minute discussion and be told that the client is looking for someone with a business background. Well I definitely don’t have that, you couldn’t have avoided all this and told me from the beginning it wasn’t a good fit.

      That’s no excuse for their unprofessional behavior. I would definitely reach out directly to the client and tell them, you don’t think it’s a good fit, but that you liked them and the company and you’re sorry about the way things ended.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        I too have had bad experiences although I’m sure some recruiters are decent. I’m an admin asst and one time I was contacted by one about a position for one of their clients who was looking for an admin with sales force.com experience which I have. I had a generic phone interview them they wanted to have a face to face. I was like this is awesome… But when I got there and sat at a large table with everyone from the CFO to the CTO etc it gradually became apparent they were looking for a DATABASE ADMIMISTRATOR for sales force.com! I had done all that prep work for nothing and walked out of there completely deflated. Clearly this recruiter did not understand the position

        1. voluptuousfire*

          I’m surprised you made it to an in person interview! There’s one thing having a bit of confusion about the role but then there’s outright fabrication. Did they fudge your resume?

  2. Anon for this*

    I got Job B!!!

    Ok, you may not know what I’m talking about so I’ll put a link below to the lengthy post I left last week about my looooong job search.

    So yes, I got Job B!! They offered me $4K more than the higher end that I asked for and $14K more than Job A offered me! Plus significantly more vacation (they are following this new “unlimited” trend).

    The best part? I didn’t even apply for this job. They found me! A recruiter that works directly for this company came across my *new* resume and contacted me about the role. Had I seen this job posted I NEVER would have applied for it. I would have thought it was totally out of my league. I met maybe 60% of the requirements, but the main requirement was 5 years of experience in this specific type of role that I don’t have at all. But they had a specific need, a skills gap, that I am able to provide. It feels really good to have a company/job of this caliber go after me and really believe in me.

    So, it’s true, folks: if you think you can do a job, apply for it, even if you don’t have all of the qualifications. You might have just the thing they are looking for. And get your resume out there so employers can find you.

    Also, the interview process was smooth and easy. Actually easy. I think that is because of the practice, practice, practice I’ve been doing based on recommendations from this site.

    I’m so excited. I feel like I hit the jackpot. I absolutely have this blog to thank. Once I started implementing the advice I got here everything about my job search changed. I mean, crickets, for years, and then suddenly I’m overwhelmed with interviews and juggling two job offers. A sincere thank you to Alison and everyone on this site. Your advice has been invaluable and has taught me a lot.

    6. Anon for this*

      Thank you! It still hasn’t sunk in. Nothing has worked out for so long that I’m sitting here waiting for something to get in the way. Or for them to call me to say they’ve made a terrible mistake.

      And the weirdest part is just not having anything to do right now. I’ve spent so much time looking for jobs and writing cover letters, that I literally don’t know what to do with myself during my free time.

      1. Nashira*

        This sounds like a good time to learn to paint or take up making Ingress trails. What a happy to have: free time because things are going well!

    10. Future Analyst*

      This is great news– congrats! Also, your story is starkly in contrast to cat’s above… so recruiters really can go either way, huh?

      1. Anon for this*

        Oh yes, I read that. I feel for Cat. I had a number of bad experiences with recruiters through my job search. They regularly misrepresented jobs to me. I learned not to trust them and ask what I needed to at the interview. The two exceptions were the two job offers I received and in both of those cases they were internal recruiters (or” talent acquisition”) that worked directly for the company, and in both cases they were great. But the Job B recruiter was truly phenomenal.

    16. Stella Ella Oh La*

      AMAZING! I’m job searching as well, this gives me so much hope! Congratulations :)

      1. Anon for this*

        You can do it!

        With so many short term jobs and not working much over the past 3 years, I really thought I screwed up my career for life. I was convinced I would have to resort to a low-level, low-paying job for several years and pay my dues in a new field before moving up. But I was able to hone in on the skills from the past that applied to the new direction I was taking and make a strong case for why I should be hired. I really don’t think I would have ever made that transformation without stumbling across this site.

        But yes, have hope!

    18. dd*

      I’m curious. What did you do to your new resume and where did you post it? Job board? LinkedIn?

      1. Anon for this*

        My resume used to be a list of job responsibilities. I also have had a lot of short-term jobs so I was cramming a lot of information onto it thinking that I needed to show all the things I can do. I changed the lists of responsibilities to accomplishments and removed about half of the information and focused only on the skills that applied to the kind of job I wanted. I added a highlights section at the top to list things that I thought were special (for lack of a better word) and to describe achievements that spanned the course of my career but couldn’t be pinpointed to one specific job (or could be pinpointed to all my jobs).

        I probably did my resume in a non-traditional format. I listed the job title, then included a short paragraph description of what the job was, then put 2-3 bullets MAX that specifically related to achievements at that job. Since I had some job gaps and my most recent position didn’t really have anything to do with the direction I was taking my career, I listed it (and one other job) at the bottom under and “additional experience” section with much more limited information, just to show I had been working.

        I posted it on job boards like dice.com (because I’m in a tech field) and other more specialized boards. I had a lot of recruiters contact me saying they came across my resume but didn’t tell me specifically where. I didn’t ask either, just sent them the most recent version of my resume and moved on from there.

        2. Stranger than fiction*

          This is beautiful and I wish more of my friends would take my advice on how important it is to Taylor to each specific job. I went through 3 layoffs in 5 years a while back but every time managed to find another job in about 2.5 months! They’d ask me how I did it and id tell them but often they continue to use a generic laundry list of job duties!

          1. Anon for this*

            It made a real difference. I’ve had similar experiences with my friends. Some who have been jobless for quite some time. I keep recommending this site and they keep not coming here and complaining about their job search going poorly.

            And I should clarify, I posted on dice because I *wanted* to move into a tech field. I wasn’t already in tech.

        3. Golden Yeti*

          Congratulations! As someone who’s been in the trenches for a few years, it’s always nice to see someone get out. :)

          Thanks for posting the explanation of what you did. I’d like to get into a more technical field, too, but don’t really have an appetizing array of experience. Plus, I’ve mostly done admin jobs, and I find it hard to separate the duties from the accomplishments. Any tips?

          Congrats again!

          1. Anon for this*

            My last job was an admin role and most of my previous jobs entailed a lot of admin work as well. I’ve had the same issue with writing accomplishments over duties. This time around I put things like “always met or exceeded tight deadlines”, “developed a reputation for X”, “brought Y up to date from months of backlog”, and “fast responses positioned sales team to regularly win competitive deals”. I also put some bullets that related to how quickly I developed a complex new skill. I’m not sure it’s perfect, but it seems to have worked.

            I think admins do a lot of coordinating and overseeing things. If that applies to you maybe try focusing on that. During the interview for Job A, which was an admin role, the hiring manager said to me “I manage everyone else, but my admin manages me.” I thought that was a really good way to sum up what a good admin does. When rewriting my resume recently I tried to look at my admin work as an integral part of organizational success and described accomplishments around how I contributed to that.

            As for getting into a more technical field, I probably have above average technical skills, but nothing like most people in technical roles. But I know I am good at this stuff and typically pick new technology up quickly with minimal explanation. I tried to demonstrate that I was capable of it more than the experience I already have since, like you, it was minimal in comparison to others in this area. I didn’t know whether I was on the right track at first, but again, it seems to have worked.

            I hope that helps. Good luck with everything.

            1. Golden Yeti*

              This is really helpful–especially since it sounds like we have similar backgrounds and aptitudes. Thanks!

    20. The IT Manager*

      Awesome! Congrats!

      So did you get offer from A before you got one from B and gave to delay them or did B offer first?

      1. Anon for this*

        Yeah. I got an over the phone offer from A on Friday and told B about it. They pushed up their timeline and gave me a verbal offer over the phone on Monday before A even sent the written one. I got the written one from A Monday night and the written one from B by mid-Tuesday. I didn’t have to keep A waiting long, thankfully.

        I was a nervous wreck turning them down because a lot of stuff needed to happen with B, but I knew they needed an answer quickly. Things with B seem to be moving along nicely. I’ve already gotten official welcome emails. Just waiting for the background check to clear, but that shouldn’t be an issue.

    21. Sidra*

      Dang, what industry/profession are you in? I could use a $14K raise and a decent vacation policy!

      1. Anon for this*

        Software. But this is a career change for me. By far the most I’ve ever made, by about $25K.

        1. Sherm*

          So you got some software certifications? I ask because I have a friend who is in a similar boat to the one you were in.

          And congratulations! I remember you, and that Job B was the better one :)

          1. Anon for this*

            Sorry, that wasn’t very clear. I’m coming from educational nonprofits and they needed someone on their team to fill an education gap for internal training. They have a lot of good tech people but they are not so good at teaching people. They wanted someone with a solid understanding of how people learn and who could create learning experiences that focused on professional development rather than just here are steps 1, 2, and 3 to complete this task. Also someone who can oversees the full scope of projects and maintain a broad view of project needs, delegating technical work to the right people without getting bogged down in the technical details themselves. I have some technical background but I didn’t need to have to extensive knowledge for this job.

          2. Anon for this*

            I did get some certifications recently but they were not software related. I think it’s more that I learned how to market myself and figured out exactly how to say I’d be valuable in a different role than I’ve don’t before.

            And thanks!

  3. Sunflower*

    Has anyone ever gotten the right job offer but at the wrong time?

    I recently decided that I want to do extended travel and then move to another city(I’ve been trying to move here for a while) when I return. This would mean I’d have to quit a job. Ideally, since I hate my job, I’d leave now. More than likely though, I’m going to have to work for another year due to savings and getting rid of leases. However, my job is not going well and due to financial issues my company is having, I don’t know how much longer my job is going to exist.

    I’ve been job searching for a while and at this point, the plan is to basically find a job that is in line with my field, isn’t terrible and pays well. I’ve been getting some interviews and I feel confident.

    Naturally though, now a great job opportunity has come up at a company I’ve been trying to get into since I graduated 4 years ago. Employees are happy, great benefits but it is most definitely a step down. The company will look great on my resume, I’ll be making more money than i do now(i’m very underpaid) but I’d basically be an admin for a person who does the job I do now. I’m also realizing that I’m not sure the job I want exists there. The company is large and who knows if I’d want to stay in the dept, but to get into a job similar to what I’ve been doing, it could take a year, or five or eight. There’s also no telling if this job could transition into the city I want to move to. My ambivalence is further complicated by me having people I know on the inside.

    I’m very inclined to take this job but I’m worried about the consequences if I leave after a year. If another job popped up here later down the line, would that put me on a companies ‘do not hire’ list? Also is it worth it to take a job to get your foot in the door if you are planning to walk out anyway? (Any advice on any part of this in general is appreciated!)

    1. NJ Anon*

      I would take the job and see what happens. Things never work out the way you plan them to.

    2. Dawn*

      So you have an offer in hand for the company you’ve been trying to get into, right? For more money and with a direct line (and potential for stepping into) a position that you want? Man, just go for it. Who knows what will happen in a year- you could fall in love with the job, you could get laid off, you could break your leg and not be able to travel, you could decide you want to travel somewhere totally different, whatever. “A good battle plan that you act on today can be better than a perfect one tomorrow.”

    3. Camellia*

      “…it is most definitely a step down.”
      “… but I’d basically be an admin for a person who does the job I do now.”
      “…to get into a job similar to what I’ve been doing, it could take a year, or five or eight.”
      “I’m also realizing that I’m not sure the job I want exists there.”
      “There’s also no telling if this job could transition into the city I want to move to.”

      For me, these issues would outweigh “…employees are happy, great benefits”, which seem to be the only positives in your comment.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        While Camellia brings up some good points, my question is: how committed are you to taking a year off and travelling? I mean you’re on different tangents here, you want to go travelling, you want to move up in your position. If you took this job and within a few months you did get moved up into a position you wanted, would that permanently shelve your travelling?

        If you are definitely, 100% committed to going travelling in a year’s time, then taking a job that’s a step down but pays more at a company you’ve wanted to get into is just a stepping stone to your ultimate goal — going travelling. You’d be making more money (which hopefully means you could save more for your trip), at a job that might have fewer responsibilities, leaving you more free time to prep for your trip. Researching where you want to go, the prices of things, getting into better shape (how far can you walk with a heavy backpack?), shedding your personal possessions either by giving away/selling things you don’t want/need or finding places to store them for while you’re gone, learning how to travel light/what you would need to pack.

        If you did take this new job, you wouldn’t have to tell them what you’re planning, it could be something that gradually evolves over the time you work there. One person I worked with also wanted to backpack through Europe, they were given a 6 week leave of absence (unpaid) to do so which was also to the company’s benefit as that was the slow time of year.

        I guess I just don’t see the point in staying at a job you’re unhappy in, where you’re paid less for another year. A lot of things can happen in a year but the only thing that’s guaranteed if you stay at your job is misery from the sounds of it.

        1. Sunflower*

          What you say makes a lot of sense. Traveling is my main goal- for now. Obviously once I get back my goal will be to focus on my career. Traveling originally came up because I’ve wanted to relocate for years, have been getting no bites on my resume and decided I’d be okay with moving without a ‘career’ job and just picking up odd jobs to pay bills while I searched. I thought if I’m doing that, I might as well do things in between that I can’t do when I have a job hence extended travel. And now that I’ve been looking into it, I can’t imagine not doing it.

          The only reason I’m worried about the step down is that it’s giving me less to work with on salary front. The lowest number I would take the job for is a stretch for the position. The number I really want is in line for the rest of the jobs I’ve been interviewing for. My current salary is barely enough to pay my bills so staying at my current job is really doing nothing for any of future goals.

          I’ve wanted to travel a lot in the past but it always came up that I’d be missing out on career stuff if I did. Now that I realize that yes, i will miss out on some career stuff, I’ve come to terms with it and I’m fine. It sounds cliche but you only live once and doing extended travel isn’t something you can do at any point in your life. I don’t know how I’ll feel after I take/turn down this job but I know I’ll regret it forever if I don’t take a long trip of some sorts

      2. AcademicAnon*

        The “due to financial issues my company is having, I don’t know how much longer my job is going to exist” would outweigh those other consideration for me though.

    4. Future Analyst*

      Take the job! There’s no way to predict how these things will work out, and since you know you’re very interested in the company, take the chance to see it from the inside. That kind of intel is invaluable down the line. And I wouldn’t worry about being placed on a “do not hire” list if you leave after a year — unless you’re planning to leave on bad terms, it’s not a reason to avoid taking the job.

    5. Beancounter in Texas*

      So long you don’t lie to them and tell them you have plans to stick around for a few years, I’d think it’s very normal to work for a year and move on. And as NJ Anon points out, plans change. Perhaps the position you’ll be assisting becomes vacant and you are a perfect candidate for the job. Do the best you can, continue on your current plan and say adios later. This a professional arrangement. If you were an excellent employee the first time around, they’d probably welcome you to apply again for a position in the future. Take the job and pursue your plans. Good luck.

    6. Wolfey*

      Hey Sunflower! Congrats on the opportunity! Choices sometimes suck, but not as much as having no choices, right?

      I think this comes down to 2 things:
      1) How much do you want a change? Is your unhappiness more tied to your current job (to be cured by new job) or to a general sense of stagnation/claustrophobia/etc (to be cured by travel)?
      2) What kind of upward mobility is there at this company?

      I don’t think you should take the job if you are really committed to traveling. It’s not fair to them, and it will reflect badly on you if you ever wanted to work with them again. And it will kill your travel momentum, especially if you relocate. I also don’t think you should take the job if you know that you’ll be bored and it’s unlikely to change soon. It would be better to say, “I REALLY like you guys, but this position isn’t the best fit. Please keep me in mind for others,” and then check back frequently.

      You should take the job if you think you can be happy in your city for another couple of years at least, and if you sense that the move would not only boost your paycheck but help out your career. Maybe that means doing admin for a year (not terrible) before moving up.

      FWIW, when interviewing for the job I just gave notice at I told them straight up that I would probably only stay for a year since this isn’t my jam, but I had good experience and would do a stellar job for that year. They took me anyway, I gave them my best, and now I can put a positive spin on my short stint. Maybe you could be similarly upfront? “Look, I really like your company but this position is a step below what I do now and it’s unlikely that I’d want to do it long-term. What kind of opportunities for advancement are there?” It may not work out, but if you wouldn’t otherwise be happy then it’s a worthy risk.

      1. Sunflower*

        Hey thanks! This opportunity came out of nowhere as the job was never posted and someone recommended me internally. They only contacted me on Monday about the job, I’ve had 3 interviews this week an I’ll hear on Monday. The salary could end up being an issue as the lowest number i would take is in their range, but really high. I wouldn’t be relocating for this job but I really want to relocate eventually. My plan was to travel and then just move on my own since I’m not getting anything from sending my resume out in my current spot.

        I’ve been trying to get into this company for a while because I know people who work there and love it. However, I’m now realizing I don’t know if they job I want there exists. They are also very aware this job is a step down for me and everyone I’ve interviewed with has asked how I feel about that. I’m okay with it for now, I wouldn’t mind doing it for a year or two. I’ve asked about growth and they seem really committed to helping their employees grow internally but there is really no direct path and who knows when a position will open up.

        I’d say my happiness is more tied to my job although I am somewhat clueless about where I want to go in my career. Travel is just something I want to do and I feel the older I get, the less able I’ll be to do it. The more money you start making, the further along you get, the harder it is to do it. It’s not something I necessarily need to do now, but it’s something I know I’ll regret if I don’t do.

        I would love to do contract jobs but they don’t seem very popular in my industry. The idea of staying put somewhere for 10 years really freaks me out!

        1. Wolfey*

          You mentioned above that your current job barely covers the bills, which I missed before. If that’s true then it might not make as much sense as I thought to stay, because then how would you even save for travel? I still wouldn’t take a new job without being really upfront about my eventual plans to travel if I was committed to it, but I might push back my travel date if there was a year-long opportunity with more money I could use to save. Ultimately I wouldn’t want to burn bridges, and the best way to do that is to not give false impressions.

        2. Stranger than fiction*

          Excuse me if this sounds naive but why would one need to travel for a year straight? Why not just take a one to two week vacation to somewhere awesome once a year?

          1. Wolfey*

            There’s nothing inherently special about traveling for exactly 365 days, but there is something qualitatively different between a 2 week destination vacation and X months of extended travel. I’ve done a lot of both and each has its strengths, but 2 weeks isn’t going to scratch the itch to explore widely, compare lots of different experiences, and to enjoy transformation. It’s the slow cooking in extended travel that makes it special.

  4. Swarley*

    I have a phone interview today. I would very much appreciate some good vibes. Thank you!

    11. Swarley*

      Thank you all! I think it went well. And I was able to work in Alison’s favorite question to ask the hiring manager. It definitely had more of a conversational flow than a question and answer session. We’ll see!

  5. ACA*

    I reached out this morning regarding the job I interviewed for two weeks ago, since I hadn’t heard anything since then, and apparently their timeline has been delayed for “a number of reasons.” On the plus side, it sounds like I’m still in the running!

    1. Dawn*

      Yay! I’m kind of in a similar boat- I got an email on Monday saying “We want to utilize your skills and talents, I’ll contact you on Thursday” and then yesterday was a snow day, so I’m sitting here on pins and needles waiting to hear back!

      May you be able to have lots of patience and may they want to bring you in!

  6. CrazyCatLady*

    Resume question!

    I worked at Company A for 10 months, then left for a new position at Company B. I was at the new position for only 5 months and left (on good terms, and ended up consulting for them on one aspect of the job for another 4 months). I came back to Company A (same position). Should I even include Company B on my resume at all? If so, how would you recommend listing it? For what it’s worth, I did have some pretty decent accomplishments in my short time there.

    1. The Office Admin*

      I have this on my resume! I list Company B sandwich between company A, because I’m proud of what I did and ok with how I left.
      Company A Jan 2014 to present
      stuff
      stuff
      stuff
      Company B Sept 2013 to Jan 2014
      stuff
      stuff
      Company A Aug 2011 to Sept 2013
      stuff
      stuff
      stuff

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        Have you had interviews since this situation? I’m assuming interviewers would bring it up – how do you talk about why you left after such a short time?

        1. fposte*

          Are you hunting right now? If so, how long has your last stint been at Company A?

          If you’re not hunting, the longer that last stint the less likely it is that anybody will care about the Company B interlude or bring it up.

          1. CrazyCatLady*

            I’m keeping an eye out but not full-time actively job-hunting. I’ve only been back at Company A for 5 months, so ideally, I’d like to stick it out a little longer before moving on to something else. So are you saying if I stay here long enough, I shouldn’t even include Company B, or just that no one will care? Also, for what it’s worth, my past job history has been stable (7 years at the job before Company A, 2.5 years at a job prior to that).

            1. fposte*

              More the second, but even the first is a possibility. I do think it’s a good idea to stick it out longer, though; to have two under-a-year positions as your last two positions would suggest to me as a hiring manager that you may have itchy feet generally.

              1. CrazyCatLady*

                Yeah, it’s my goal to stick it out a little longer if I can tolerate it. I don’t know if it makes a difference, but the two recent jobs have been after a big relocation so I’m still “settling in” (it’s been almost 2 years). In total, I’ve been with Company A now for 15 months, just not consistently.

        2. The Office Admin*

          I’ve had interviews with two companies. I haven’t tried taking it out and leaving a gap though.
          I was asked once, the other one I brought it up to reference how I would handle a situation.
          Basically, I was an office manager, then I was a police/fire/EMT dispatcher for 3 months, then went back to office management. And I always just say, I loved being a dispatcher(I did, it’s a great job) but I felt like I wasn’t able to devote my full attention to the public who were calling 911 because I was also entering warrants and protection orders AT THE SAME TIME. It’s hard to explain in a text form, but taking a call from someone having a heart attack and transitioning back to looking up tattoos and past criminal histories was very difficult mentally. I could do one or the other, but both simultaneously, no.
          It gave me great experience, I always say, “you can’t surprise me, scare me, or stress me out anymore it just isn’t possible.”

          1. SerfinUSA*

            My partner just interviewed for a programming job (she did tech support etc for 5 yrs, 10 yrs ago). She is currently a 911 dispatcher and has the same issues with admin type stuff going on while handling actual emergency calls.
            Definitely a unique skill set :D

      2. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

        I agree about listing it, since it sounds like you parted on good terms and maybe had some worthy-of-mention accomplishments there, but in the interest of space-saving (and avoiding the obvious visual sandwich), I’d probably list it this way instead:

        Company A
        January 2014-Present, ROLE
        August 2011 to September 2013, ROLE
        Description

        Company B
        September 2013-January 2014, ROLE
        January 2014-March 2014, CONSULTING ROLE
        Description

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          Ooh that’s a good idea. I think it will work as long as I stay in Company A for a long enough time the second go-round.

  7. The Office Admin*

    Friday thread is awfully timely this week!

    I have been job hunting for a few months now, mostly looking at telecommute positions(my husbands job will likely move us around a bit for the next 10 years, I don’t want to keep job hopping) but I started looking for jobs in the area we will be relocating to..and I got not one, but TWO job interviews! Which is great, right? But, let’s focus on Job A, yes? It’s for a new location position as an office manager(what I do now, but corporate)
    Job A sets up a phone interview for last week with the recruiter. Goes great, she’s really nice, asks good questions, is personable, explains the job and the company well. Tells me to expect to work about 45 hours per week for the first couple of post-Opening Day months and that I’ll have one or two admin assistants. Asks me to set up a second phone interview with a couple people in HR at the corporate office. This interview also goes well, these two tell me to expect to work 50 to 55 hours per week in the first post-Opening months and that I would have 3 to 4 admin assistants.
    Then I get a call asking if I can go to the city the new location is going to be in(2.5 hours from where I live now) to meet with recruiter and a Director on Thursday(yesterday) at 5 pm, this is excellent so I don’t have to miss much work in the afternoon! Now, I’m pretty excited about this job, it seems like it would really be a challenge, allow me to improve my skills, ect.
    Yesterday, interview scheduled at 5 pm. I get there 10 minutes early, I can hear people talking in the conference room, so I wait outside. Another interviewee shows up at 5, he’s interviewing for a separate position and we chat for a bit, turns out his interview is at 5 too. So we’re like, are they interviewing in groups?? So we wait. And wait.
    At 5:30, they come out, say hi, and take the other guy in. And by now, any interview adrenaline is fast wearing out in me. I’ve been up since 5:00 am, I just had a 2.5 hour drive and I have a 2.5 hour drive home to make AND my interview is going to start who-knows-when.
    His interview ends rather quickly and they bring me in at 5:45.
    Now, normally I’m really good in interviews, but I could not stop myself from rambling to fill the silence and the director seemed incredibly bored, he had no idea who I was, didn’t read my resume, nothing.
    ALSO he said that hours for the first couple of months post-Opening would be 60+ hours and that I would have 6 to 8 admin assistants to manage. Interview lasted about 20 minutes, which is shorter than my two phone interviews.
    Does anyone else notice a trend here? The job just gets bigger and bigger…and they kept telling me, it will be crazy, the workload can be overwhelming, how do you deal with stress?(warning bells, so many warning bells)

    Sorry for the wall-o-text, but this isn’t normal, is it? I’ve never worked in corporate setting before, wondering if the 45 minute interview start wait, and increase in job responsibility and hours through the process is standard.

    Also, I AM glad I went to this interview, because while I was excited about it, I was also worried about the work/life balance and a bit unsure. Now, I don’t think they’ll offer me the position, but if they do, I think I would turn it down.

    What does the AAM community think?

    1. hildi*

      Shoot, I would turn it down. I don’t blame you. I’m not experienced with the corporate world, either, but whether your interview experience is normal or not it doesn’t sound like a company I’d want to work for. It seems to me and I know this theme has been repeated on AAM many times, but a good company should want to present themselves in the best light to the candidates, too, right?? So if you had warning bells, I say trust your gut. The comments over the years are filled with people that didn’t and wish they had.

    2. Rex*

      It seems like you’re not in a position where you have to take any job you can find, and you already have another interview lined up, right? Sounds like you should withdraw from this one.

      1. The Office Admin*

        Yes, luckily, we aren’t moving for a couple months so I have time to look for a new job while still employed in our current town.

    3. Dawn*

      They sound like they don’t know what they want for this job, or like they know that it’s going to scare people away if they tell them flat out “Yeah it’s 60 hours a week and you have to manage 6 people”. At this point, just wait and see what they come up with- they might reject you at this point (since it sounds like the interview you drove to didn’t go so well, which was not your fault!) or they might send you an offer and you can think long and hard about if it’ll be worth it.

      Personally, I would be really hesitant to take a job that’s going to ask you to run ragged for an undefined period of time with vague mentions of when or how it’ll taper off. There’s been way, way, way too many people on AAM with stories of jobs that started that way and then never, ever let up.

    4. YandO*

      Office Manager is not the kind of position that translates into telecommuting nicely. You kinda need to be there in order to ensure things runs smoothly.

    5. Future Analyst*

      Run away! It sounds as though they either don’t know what their expectations are for this position (which will end poorly), or they are not telling everyone the same information (which will end poorly). I think you’re absolutely right to turn it down, if you get an offer. If the gap in what they initially told you and what you found out in your last interview was not as large, I would have pushed to clarify with them before you accept an offer. But at this point, it just sounds like it’s a mess, and you’d be better off seeing what else you can find.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree. What you saw here is only the beginning. It will be worse once you are actually doing the job.

    6. Sherm*

      1) They were rude
      2) They have given you 3 different answers about what the job will entail (so who’s to say that the job won’t actually be a 4th way?)
      3) Last but not least, those warning bells.

      Survey says: Run away

  8. Forrest*

    I recently had a life changing experience where I got to do an encounter with a beluga whale at the Georgia Aquarium. Basically, got to go in and play with the whales. It really made me want to do it again and it was inspiring. Its the type of nonprofit I’d love to work for. I saw that they are actually hiring for a position that is the next step for me career wise. Should I take a chance? I currently live in DC but honestly I wouldn’t be leaving much behind.

    1. RetailManager*

      It never hurts to apply! Just be aware that there is a lot of competition for these positions.

    2. OriginalEmma*

      What are the pros and cons of taking this chance? Do you have a safety net (emergency savings, etc.) if this dream doesn’t turn out the way you planned? I suppose only you can decide for yourself whether this is worth the leap. Good luck, though!

    3. Katie the Fed*

      If you’re qualified for the job, no harm in applying. But I’d have a better explanation for why you want it other than an experience with a beluga whale, because I don’t think you’ll be doing a lot of that in your job.

    4. hildi*

      Sounds like the makings of a good adventure to me! If it makes sense for you career wise, and you don’t mind relocating – go for it. Can’t hurt to at least have the experience of applying and hopefully get an interview! Good luck!

    5. SJP*

      Do it. I got a job in Canada as a ski instructor/lesson booking agent. It was a sort of break in my career but I was still young, and it was an experience I enjoyed and also hated.
      I learnt a lot about myself and my career and job norms.
      I worked with absolute arseholes who couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery but the fun I did have I wouldn’t change for the world and it taught me a lot about myself.
      So do it!! Good luck

      1. SJP*

        Im from the UK if that helps so I upped and left basically and only knew 1 person I’d be working with. I’d never travelled before and it taught me independence, thinking for myself, looking after myself, professionalism when others were wildly unprofessional (letting people who do drugs still do them when it’s common knowledge for example) and stuff.
        Sometimes these are big leaps but they teach you a lot about yourself…
        Would I do it again, absolutely. But I’d do a hell of a lot of things differently

    7. Sunflower*

      As long as you’re qualified, no harm in applying. I would make sure to just consider how the non-profit runs. Just because they have a great mission doesn’t mean they are functional!

      And I would say never let the fear of relocating discourage you from taking a job. You obviously aren’t tied to the area so I don’t think adjusting to a new place will be too tough for you.

    8. Bird Trainer*

      Check out AZAs website (association of zoos and aquariums). They have a great job listings page that includes not only “animal” jobs but also “office” jobs that keep the zoos and aquariums running smoothly. So if you’re not dead set on Georgia, and are open to relocating, it might be worth checking out.

  9. LillianMcGee*

    I think my office has the dumbest problem… about coffee! Here’s the sitch: Everyone complains that the coffee we buy sucks. This annoys the ED because she wonders why we are spending so much on coffee when no one likes it. I would say half the coffee drinkers go out to Starbucks and buy their own daily and the other half just drink the crappy coffee because it’s free (there is another group that either drink tea or nothing). When we tried to organize something like a “coffee club” where coffee drinkers would put in $5-10 per month to buy better coffee to make here, it goes nowhere because no one cares enough to want to spend the money. Or maybe they just like complaining. Who knows!
    Anyway, we are exploring other options because paying $80-100 per month on the coffee maker and supplies just for people to complain is too much. I think, since we are a small nonprofit (20ish full timers plus a handful interns), it would be worth sacrificing the coffee completely, but we are already in the process of downsizing so I fear it would kill morale.
    Do you have an office of comparable size? How do you handle coffee matters?

    1. Kelly L.*

      I guess my first question is, what makes the coffee suck? Is it the brand of coffee that is bought, or does the coffeemaker burn it, or something else?

      We have a Keurig, so everybody can bring in whatever coffee they like, but it’s an expensive initial outlay and it’s also bad for the environment, so YMMV.

      1. Steve G*

        Those K cups things are always subpar. No matter in whose office I’ve been (and I tried all the ones in mine) they all taste bland, or they taste really acidic but don’t have a strong coffee flavor. Not to mention the oh-so-non-environmentally friendly plastic Kcups.

        Classic drip coffee or an espresso machine are 100X better.

        1. H*

          My office bought a Keurig and the resuable Kcups, so people are free to bring in their own environmentally unfriendly Kcups, or their own ground coffee to use in the reusable ones. Not sure if that makes any difference in regards to the taste, I have yet to actually use the thing, but it does provide a more environmentally friendly option.

          1. NJ Anon*

            We are a small non profit and we do this as well. Company bought the Keurig; we bring in our own coffee. No muss, no fuss!

      2. themmases*

        I strongly recommend Ekobrew cups for this. They cost $5-10 each for the plastic ones. I had one at my old job and would make up to 4 cups a day in it for 2 years (I arrived at work at 7 am so my coffee habit was serious), and it held up great. They are way cheaper per cup than K-cups even if you get fancy coffee, better for the environment, and they taste better. I gifted mine to a coworker when I left that job and as far as I know it’s still going strong.

        When I looked up the spelling I saw that they apparently sell stainless steel ones now too– those might have even better longevity if an office wanted to provide communal ones and ground coffee.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      It seems to me the easiest thing to do is just to switch to another brand of coffee. The club sounds far too difficult to manage for a small group.

      1. LillianMcGee*

        We have tried a few different kinds, and the ED is unwilling to spring for a higher priced brand. I think it’s a generic in line with a supermarket store brand. It’s unfortunate for the coffee drinkers that I am in charge of ordering because I don’t drink it!

        1. Anna*

          Former company had a lot of complaints about the coffee so they did a taste test and bought different brands and different roasts. People tasted and voted on the one they liked best. Guess which coffee won.

          You could do that and see what shakes out. The fact that the old coffee won in our office shut everyone up about it.

    3. Rowan*

      We all pitch in £5 and buy supplies (coffee, teabags, milk etc) from that. When we run out of money we all put in another £5. People who are fussy about their brand express a preference, majority rules or we get two jars as the unfussy people will happily use both.

      2. Sunflower*

        I agree. If everyone can’t agree on something that works for people, then no point wasting money..

        or just buy a keurig and let people bring their own kcups

      3. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I am late to this party, but I wholeheartedly agree. My office has a coffeemaker somewhere, but since there are only 4 of us, we don’t use it. Only 2 of us drink coffee, and we both bring from home or run out to the coffee shop. Personally, I cold brew and bring in a bottle of concentrate that I keep in the fridge. If I didn’t, though? I’d bring in a French press (they’re not that pricey) and some supermarket beans and take care of my own business. So much easier.

    5. TCO*

      When morale is low and people are (likely) already making financial sacrifices to work at your organization, I think it’s nice to be thoughtful about the little perks like decent coffee. How much would it cost to buy better coffee?

      We have a Keurig at our office and people can use it one of three ways:
      1) Pay (I think a dollar, I don’t use it) for each K-cup they use (honor system)
      2) Bring their own K-cups
      3) Bring one of those reusable K-cup thingys and their own coffee (maybe your office could buy a reusable cup for each person)

      Would people be open to that? While the coffee wouldn’t be entirely free, it still offers people the ability to drink the coffee they like and have a variety of cost levels depending on how much convenience people are willing to pay for.

      1. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

        +1000.

        I’ve got a Keurig at home, and I like it a lot. I order the misc K-cups from Amazon, they tend to run an average of $0.50-$0.75 per (the pricing fluctuates daily). It’s fast, it’s low-maintenance, and I know people say it’s “ecologically unfriendly” but I don’t think there’s a definitive argument to be made either way.

        And if you can’t set it up for the office to share, the things aren’t terribly expensive. My boss has his own Keurig machine on his desk.

    7. Observer*

      Either you have a faulty coffee maker, in which case the solution is to have it fixed / exchanged; you’re buying a lousy brand, in which case it’s easy enough to change brands; or you have a bunch of people who like to complain in which case you give them 3 (and ONLY 3 choices): Stop complaining, suggest – as a group – a change the the organization can reasonably make, or give up the coffee. Something like “We have a problem with the constant complaining about the coffee. In a week we will stop purchasing coffee and return the coffee machine, unless we either have a commitment from all staff to stop complaining about the coffee or a viable suggestion to solve the problem.” And, if people DO come up with a reasonable solution, you need to follow through.

      People who complain because they are essentially complainers or because they are unhappy about something else but won’t / can’t address that will continue to complain no matter what you do about this. But, this should work for the rest of the staff.

      1. LillianMcGee*

        I like that and I did suggest to the ED that she really just needs to put her foot down. I think ultimately they are just a bunch of coffee snobs. I’ve tried it and it’s really not that bad so I have no idea what else the problem could be!

        1. Kelly L.*

          I guess another question is, is it a problem in need of a solution, or is it just a thing to make small talk about? I think sometimes people bellyache about a thing but don’t care all that deeply about it; it’s more of a social ritual.

          1. LillianMcGee*

            It’s the ED’s pet peeve, and she’s been on it for years. I’m finally in charge of supplies so I’d like to at least try to present some kind of solution.

            1. Anonsie*

              Definitely try BYOCup for a coffee upgrade, cleaning the machine, maybe asking some of the complainers what the problem is (like if the machine’s hot plate burns the coffee really fast or something) to see if there’s another solution.

              On the other hand, be prepared to not be able to “fix” anything because, as Kelly L says, sometimes bad coffee is just a thing to talk about. It’s sort of a safe target for frustration. Though I don’t think this is so much the case here because your people are actually going outside to purchase coffee; if they were just complaining for its own sake, I don’t think so many would be refusing it entirely.

              Also, some people are just *really* snippity about their coffee. I’ve seen a whole lot of people refuse to drink coffee that isn’t freshly brewed who have a cool habit of dumping out whatever’s in the kitchen when they go there and re-making a new pot for themselves. I’m entirely happy to drink coffee that’s a whole 60 minutes old, so this drives me nuts because it seems like there’s coffee brewing more often than it’s available for a cup. So you may just have a high proportion of those people.

              On the other other hand, if your ED has been worrying about this for years but isn’t willing to spend and money on it and hasn’t ever figured out why people hate the coffee, I’m not really sure what type of miracles she’s expecting here. I think the real solution she wants is for there to be no complaining, since her initial reaction is to just take it away (??) rather than figure out better coffee.

    8. Laurel Gray*

      In JobManyYearsAgo I was responsible for the coffee. It was a start up and we ordered two different kinds of Starbucks by the case. It was brewed in a standard 10-12 cup pot. Just some suggestions:

      1.) Clean out the machine often. There is a difference. I even had one colleague that would put chicory occasionally in the pot and people would think I performed some kind of magic that day. We would both get a laugh.
      2.) Limit paper products/supplies that come with coffee to help cut down on additional supplies to be ordered. Make people supply their own cups
      3.) Look into ordering from Amazon or BJs or similar. Many of the local coffee supply companies are more expensive than these options and if someone is willing to order or pick up a month’s supply at a time, it is worth it.

      1. Kelly L.*

        This is another good point. Cutting out buying cups might free up enough money to buy a slightly better brand of coffee.

        1. Natalie*

          In particular, if you have a dishwasher in your office there’s no reason to use paper cups.

          For further cost-cutting, I’d say don’t buy cream – those little creamer things are pretty expensive, powdered creamer is utterly pointless*, and lots of people don’t take cream for whatever reason. If people want cream, soymilk, whatever they can buy it themselves.

          *In my favorite mystery novel series, the protagonist refers to powdered creamer as whitener, which is pretty spot on.

          1. Al Lo*

            That’s a very Canadian way to refer to it — CoffeeMate or whatever is called coffee whitener.

          2. Anon for this*

            Oh, I heard this recently on tv but I can’t remember what I was watching. I thought it was rather clever.

    9. Traveler*

      I’d say just quit with the coffee. I”m not a coffee drinker (which certainly influences my opinion here) but as someone who doesn’t drink coffee, listening to the constant stream of consciousness/arguments about the coffee at work is incredibly irritating. I just want to ask why everyone can’t just bring their own in a freaking thermos, so we could all quit wasting 10-15 minutes a day (on a good day) on what roast we have, who made it, how strong it was made, whether it was made correctly, who is making another pot, who has creamer, where is the creamer, do we need more creamer, maybe we should make another weaker pot after the strong is gone, etc. etc. etc.

      TLDR: Someone should do a study on the amount of time wasted by employees hand wringing over the coffee pot at work.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, it makes me happy that I just need to reach into my desk drawer for a teabag and I’m good to go.

    10. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      It sounds like maybe you have some kind of vendor contract to lease the machine or something (given the ongoing monthly cost you stated), but with a relatively small staff, why not just cut the contract and get a regular 12-cup coffee maker? Even a good one should only run you around $50 or so. That plus telling everyone the new policy is “bring your own mug” instead of unlimited paper cups could help cut costs enough that you could afford a better brand of actual coffee.

      1. LillianMcGee*

        Yup, it’s a contract with a monthly minimum for orders type thing. I didn’t want to muddy the waters with all the details, but with the help of everyone’s suggestions I am working on a pro and con list for keeping the contract vs. making a one time purchase.

    11. Anx*

      I am having a very hard time wrapping my head around the idea of not having coffee at work to be a factor on morale.

      Fascinating stuff.

      I actually don’t drink coffee regularly, though. I suppose if people are addicted to caffeine and dependent on it, it may make sense for people to be able to get their fix as conveniently as possible.

      1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

        I have worked in many suburban law offices, and I’m pretty sure there’d be a mutiny if you ever tried to take the coffee machine away – when you’re billing your time in six minute increments and you’re drinking 3-6 cups of coffee a day, you do NOT have the time for multiple Starbucks runs (particularly when a Starbucks run takes a minimum of 20 minutes because it’s the suburbs and there’s driving involved).

        1. Anx*

          I think I’m just secretly jealous of people who can drink coffee without getting sleepy.

      2. Newsie*

        Our coffee machine also take a few tea packets and one cocoa packet, for coffee abstainers. We’re just such a caffeine driven industry, I’d imagine a mutiny if the coffee machine was taken away.

    12. JB*

      As other people suggested, clean out the machine (with vinegar or something similar), and check to make sure the water you are using tastes good. Also, if you pour it into a carafe, check that. Several months back, our coffee was tasting terrible. We cleaned out the coffee maker and switched to filtered water, and it helped a lot but didn’t eliminate it. When we switched to a new carafe, it helped a lot. I don’t know what about our old carafe was causing the problem, but it was.

      Also, make sure the people making the coffee know how to make it.

  10. OriginalEmma*

    Any nurses in the house? What do you like about nursing, in general, and what do you dislike? How about in your speciality? What advice or warnings would you give someone considering a career change to nursing?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      My sister is a pediatric oncology nurse. She loves it. I also worked for several years for an RN to BS program. Best advice I can give? It’s a hard job. Very physically demanding. And if you live somewhere with lots of snow, be prepared to have to work regardless of the weather. Try to figure out what population or specialty you like. Kids? Geriatric? Cancer? Community health? There are a lot. Luckily, in nursing school you’ll get to see a lot of different things.

    2. OhNo*

      Seconding what TotesMaGoats said: don’t ever let anyone tell you that it’s easy. Nursing is a tough field, and even though everyone always seems to be hiring nurses, I’ve heard that it can be a hard field to break into as a new nurse. If it’s something that you want to do, I say go for it! But if you’re just interested because it is considered a “safe” career choice right now, then maybe do more research or shadow someone first, so you know for sure what you’re getting into.

      1. Anx*

        “Nursing is a tough field, and even though everyone always seems to be hiring nurses, I’ve heard that it can be a hard field to break into as a new nurse.”

        This is so, so important. Just because demand in a field is high, doesn’t mean you’ll have an easy time breaking into the field. Nursing is no exception (depending on the region, of course)!

    3. Nurse Ratched*

      I am a nurse in an adult cardiac ICU and I absolutely love being a nurse! There are so many different opportunities that you can find the perfect career for you, from acute care to public health to academia. What I like about my specialty is that it’s very technical and complex, and we have more autonomy than other areas. It’s very fast-paced so you need to be two steps ahead of things and a strong personality is a must. I do 12-hour shifts and my schedule is very flexible. I’ve always been a night person, so I like that I work hours that my body wants to be awake. The biggest challenge I face is organizational issues, such as assignments that are too difficult, lack of staff, lack of supplies, lack of support for the bedside staff, that kind of thing. But depending on where you work you can have more input and control over this. The job is very physical, and even though I’m young and in good health I’m working on a Master’s in nursing education as a backup plan in case I’m ever injured and can’t work at the bedside anymore. I’ve seen a lot of career-ending injuries.

      For someone considering nursing as a second career, know that you’re probably going to have to have a BSN to get hired (and I won’t even start in on that can of worms). In my area hospitals won’t even consider a post-bacc certificate if you have a previous bachelor’s degree. If you do a program that’s mostly online, make sure they are accredited in your state or you won’t be able to sit boards. Know that when you’re new you’ll have to do your time on nights and work the holidays. It seems like the second career nurses struggle with that. We let interested students shadow nurses all the time, and you could probably do some informational interviews with nurse managers, too. Good luck! It really is a great career where you have a lot of flexibility and options!

      1. OriginalEmma*

        Thank you! I am more interested in nurse epidemiology, public health nursing and infection control. Your job does not sound like one I could handle (I’m more of a…medium-paced kind of person who needs to be able to consider her actions before taking them) but I appreciate your description of what’s good and bad and why you like it.

        I am looking at an RN-to-BSN course. I already have a bachelor’s but there are no second-degrees programs in my area that are accessible.

        1. Anonsie*

          Ohohohoo that’s a whole different ball game. Are you thinking a BSN-MPH type of thing for hospital infection control, or more from the public health angle?

          I cannot speak at all to the employability of infection control nurses versus any other specialty, but I can caution that public health in general is a rough field to find work in. Over the last 5 years nearly every state has gradually gutted more and more of their public health departments and spending, though there has been some improvement recently. That not to say you shouldn’t go into it, but you’ll need to be very strategic about what you do and where you’re willing to live.

          1. Anx*

            I can second this! I have been looking for a job in PH in my particular branch for 5 years and have only seen 1 opening for which I remotely qualify in my home state and only 5 openings in my current state (which doesn’t sound so bad, except that many were more admin based and were a bigger stretch to try to get). And I live in town with an MPH and MSEH program. It is rouuuugh.

            Nursing may be better, though. Public health is one of those things nobody wants to pay for until there’s a crisis.

            1. Anonsie*

              And then when there’s a crisis everyone gets mad at the public health system they wouldn’t pay for wasn’t omniscient and perfect and says we should cut their budget more. Hah hah hah.

              1. Anx*

                I imagine it’s expensive to hire infectious disease nurses ‘just in case,’ but certainly there’s a way to work out a system where infectious disease nurses are integrated throughout the hospital year-round. I actually think it’s important to integrate infection prevention specialists throughout all departments. Otherwise I think you run into people feeling micromanaged.

        2. iprn*

          Hi! Probably super late to this thread (I’m super behind on my open threads) and not sure if this will ever get read, but I’m an infection control nurse! Just some basics about nursing school – you can’t get into an RN-BSN program unless you actually have your RN license (either via an associate degree nursing program or diploma program). RN-BSN programs are for people who already have their RN license and would like to get their Bachelor’s in Nursing. I have my B.S. in Biology and my associate’s in Nursing. I highly recommend checking out Allnurses.com for info about the profession. Under the specialties tab – you can check out the “Infectious Disease nursing” tab where I occasionally post and you can post too to get more insight about the field. I love what I do but there aren’t very many openings for what I do. Every hospital has maybe 1-3 infection preventionists (our “official” title that our professional group is pushing to standardize) and you usually need about 2-3 years of bedside nursing experience before making the jump to the specialty. I will say I’m a bit of an exception because I got into the field as a new graduate nurse. Anyways, hope this helps out a little bit and good luck exploring the field!

    4. Wolfey*

      I have two friends who are having the hardest time breaking into nursing. one is in the Seattle area only, the other has been interviewing all over the country. One can’t find anything close to what she’s interested in and the other can’t find a job at all (she had to quit the last one because the shifts, hours, & stress actually triggered her auto-immune disease). From what they tell me, unless you are very lucky it’s all night/day shift rotations, terrible pay, and the places that are hiring are desperate for bodies because they are so poorly run. The debt is also really high.

      One friend said yesterday, “I don’t know where this myth about the nursing shortage is coming from! There are so many of us who can’t get hired!”

      Both of them are passionate about nursing in their respective fields (babies; infectious diseases), but I don’t think either would advise anyone new to go into it.

          1. CheeryO*

            Do you live in an area with a lot of potential employers, and if not, are you willing to relocate? Is it what you want to do? If you can answer “yes” to those two questions, you will be fine, even with one of the less marketable engineering degrees.

          2. Foxtrot*

            Definitely not a waste of time, but the STEM shortage is a myth…
            As long as you want to be an engineer, you’ll be fine. :)

            1. Wolfey*

              Hey Foxtrot! I couldn’t figure out your email after your offer to chat a while back. If you want to connect I’ll look for you in the AAM LinkedIn group.

        2. Anonsie*

          Ugh don’t get me started on this weird rumor that we don’t have enough scientists or nurses or doctors* or engineers or whathaveyou. I’ve been on my soapbox about it enough around here lately so I’ll just say toxic line of crap.

          *Ok we have health care deserts and a primary care shortage, but not a doctor shortage period. We have a shortage of MD/DO graduates whose debt load can support going into primary care or rural areas, but putting more people into med programs is nooot going to solve that problem.

          1. Anx*

            The STEM shortage crap is infuriating. I do believe that there’s a skills gap (though it’s woefully exaggerated), but I think that’s mostly a result of students having few opportunities to explore the field as they become consumed by memorizing the Kreb cycle and such. Also science classes often are focused on teaching what is known without mentioning what problems are trying to be solved out there.

            1. Sherm*

              Hear hear! The “skills gap” comes from employers being unwilling to train, even though the employees would be very bright and able to pick up new things in a short amount of time.

          2. Elsajeni*

            Ugh, yes. I understand how the “shortage” narrative arises — from the point of view of the patient, “You’re not getting your painkillers on time because we don’t have enough nurses” sure sounds like a nursing shortage. And “There are 45 kids in your class because we don’t have enough teachers” sounds like a teacher shortage, all right! But in so many of these cases, the reason we don’t have enough nurses/teachers/what-have-you isn’t because there aren’t any out there looking for jobs; it’s because someone in the decision-making chain isn’t willing to lay out the money to hire more.

            1. JB*

              That and the fact that there are news stories and “try one of these really hot careers!” articles on websites that talk about shortages. I’ve never noticed a nursing shortage as a patient, but I know I heard news stories about shortages for years.

            2. Lizzie*

              YES, she said after the longest week ever with a class of 35 kids. We would love to hire more teachers! We just don’t have the money to pay them or the classroom space for them to work in!

            3. Anonsie*

              Ding ding ding. We don’t have a staffing problem because we want to hire and can’t, we have a staffing problem because there ain’t no money to hire new people.

          3. OriginalEmma*

            And the incentive programs to get healthcare providers out in under-served communities look pretty laughable.

      2. Anna*

        Friend works at nationally renowned research/teaching hospital in our city. The problem isn’t a shortage of nurses; the problem is that surgeons book surgeries back to back and the administrators won’t hire enough nursing staff to cover it. They are constantly short on beds and short on staff, although always less bed than staff. Because that would be dangerous, right?

  11. YWD*

    What are some of your coworkers email habits that drive you crazy? I have many but I’ll limit myself to three.

    1. The person who sits 15 feet away from me and I see almost daily starts every email with ‘Hope you are well’. You know if I am cause you just saw me!
    2. The person who works in a different office and anticipates when I will read the email by starting with Good Morning or Good Evening. I don’t know why this one bugs me so much but it really does.
    3. The person who does not include information about the meeting in the meeting invite but sends a separate email 30 seconds later explaining what the meeting is about. (This person works for me and I told her to stop doing this.)

    I do wonder what habits I have that annoy others.

    1. LillianMcGee*

      “All staff” emails about pretty much anything. Especially outside-of-work things (e.g. “Look, this is playing at some theater nowhere near where you live or work!”)

      1. Rat Racer*

        Or how about when people hit “Reply All” to those messages and then you get 20 additional emails saying “PLEASE DON’T REPLY ALL!!!”

        1. Kelly L.*

          We have people who fight on the all-staff distribution list. Yes, people, I really want to fire up my email in the morning to find 50 messages of the two of you going back and forth about events from the Bush administration.

        2. Karowen*

          On the flip side, people who DON’T Reply All to messages that need a Reply All. Now I need to go find everyone who was on the original string and forward to them because you couldn’t move your mouse over about 10 pixels. (On a personal note, if one more wedding vendor replies just to me instead of to me and my fiance that I CCed on the original email, I will start knocking heads together.)

        3. Natalie*

          If you use Outlook, the “Ignore” button is gold – sends everything in that string straight to the trash.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      1. People who take days and/or a follow-up email to even respond.
      2. People who don’t read through all related messages in or responses to a thread before responding. Most of the time in these cases it’s already been handled.
      3. Coworkers who are ridiculously formal in their emails to me, even in our very small office.

      1. Rat Racer*

        Ooh! I hate number 2! Except that if there’s a long email thread and the core issue is buried at the bottom, it’s a good idea to summarize if you’re bringing in someone new. Spare them the back and forth and “I dunno, ask Jim” replies.

      2. Kelly L.*

        #2 is the bane of my existence. I’ll get “ZOMG TAKE CARE OF THIS NOW OMGWTFBBQ EMERGENCY” emails about things that have already been dealt with, because somebody is reacting before reading their other emails.

        My worst habit is forgetting the attachment. I think I first heard this from someone else on here, but my tombstone will probably say “Oops, sorry, here’s the attachment.”

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          YES! I hate those – when someone freaks out about something that needs to be taken care of when there are three more recent emails talking about HOW it’s been taken care of already.

          1. Kelly L.*

            Oh, that, and freaking out when I BCC. I’ve sometimes had people convinced I’d messed up and only sent it to myself and the freaker-outer, when actually I had sent it to a big group, BCCing for reasons of privacy and space.

        2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          I just checked my sent mail box. There are 13 messages there with the subject line “Attachment issues.” Sigh.

        3. HR Pro*

          I love that Gmail (and some other email systems, too, I think) will give you a pop up that says “You wrote the word attachment/attached in your email but there’s nothing attached. Do you still want to send it as is?” That has saved me a couple of times.

        4. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

          I was so delighted when our office moved over to Google Apps, because Gmail shouts at you if you write “attachment” or “see attached” or similar in an email and then don’t attach anything.

      3. Natalie*

        #1, this drives me crazy. It’s totally, totally fine that you can’t deal with my issue for a week or two, but could you PLEASE TELL ME THAT?

        I do a lot of work with the US GSA, an agency that clearly started as a performance piece satirizing hyperbolic depictions of government incompetence and waste, and was then accidentally mistaken for a real government agency. They are the absolute worst at this. There have been points where I genuinely felt like I was talking to a void.

    3. Rat Racer*

      I don’t know that the platitudes you mention in 1 and 2 would trouble me much, in the grand scheme of things. What drives me nuts are e-mails that come without context. Like “Hi Rat, should the number be 4 or 5 for next week’s meeting?” 4 or 5 what? Which meeting? What the heck are you talking about? I can’t follow your train of thought by reading your mind…

      1. Rex*

        I agree, YWD, I don’t understand why 1 and 2 bother you so much. Is it possible you just don’t like those people very much?

      2. Laurel Gray*

        I feel the same. I thought Good morning/afternoon/evening was more about what time the person was sending the email and less about when you would receive it. When something as simple as a greeting bothers someone I am more inclined to think there is a deeper issue or peeve there.

    4. Lo*

      I have a colleague who prints “important” emails after she sends them and puts them in my inbox “just to double check that I’ve seen them.” Maddening!

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        That is super annoying! It’s something I’d probably end up asking her to stop – or letting her know that I get her emails so she can save the paper instead of putting it my physical inbox as well.

      2. LillianMcGee*

        You can passive-aggressive her to death by adding the classic “please think about the environment” line to your email signature….

        1. louise*

          The first time I saw a note about thinking about the environment before printing, I thought “Oh, good point. We have a shared printer and this does have sensitive info. Wouldn’t want just anyone to grab it off the printer.” I can’t remember how long it took me to realize those notes refer to the meta environment, not my micro environment, but I felt really stupid…

    5. Lore*

      This is a combined phone/email peeve, but: our voicemail system delivers voicemails to our email, with the caller ID included. (So I’ll get an email with the subject line “Voice Message from Coworker X.”) So I find it really annoying when I step away from my desk, come back to find that not only do I have double notification of the voicemail (the red light on the phone and the email), but I also have an email from the same coworker outlining the same issue she’s just left a voicemail about.

    6. some1*

      Coworkers who send you an email and then walk over and want to tell you what was just emailed

      Coworkers who don’t turn off auto-replies when they return from leave

      Coworkers who spell my name wrong even though it’s right there in the email

      1. Kelly L.*

        Ugh, the spelling! There are two people in my office who consistently misspell my last name. I’ve been here over a year. Yes, the other spelling is more common. But my spelling on my email, it’s in my sig, it’s on my mailbox, it’s everywhere.

        1. Karowen*

          I have a woman who sits in the same (large) office as me and 7 other people. She keeps emailing me with a salutation of “Hi Joan.*”

          …My name is Josiann. You hear people calling me by that all day AND my name is in the email that you’re sending to me. I just…I don’t…Do you not believe Outlook? Do you not believe my friends? Where is the disconnect?

          (*Names changed, but that’s the closest I can get without revealing my true identity.)

          1. Pony tailed wonder*

            I have that too. There is one person that I just outright asked why they kept calling me someone else’s name. It stopped her but it didn’t stop the other person who still does it.

          2. OriginalEmma*

            SAME! My name is so close to a common European name that people think I’m intentionally misspelling my own name (think Dean vs. Dena) and “correct it” for me. I’ve even started using the appropriate accents in my name (which I didn’t use to do) to get people to recognize the difference but…no.

      2. Muriel Heslop*

        Or my coworker who emails me then walks to my office for a verbal response to what she just sent.

      3. Future Analyst*

        YES to the spelling of my name. My name isn’t very common, but it’s RIGHT THERE in the email… quit spelling it wrong!

      4. Joie de Vivre*

        +100 to the spelling. You got it right in the “To:” box, but by the time you got the body of the message, it’s wrong.
        Drives me snappy.

      5. Ihmmy*

        So much this. Especially 1 & 3. The other day someone I support in my role (but not my boss) came and started talking to me about an email she sent 45 minutes after I left the day before, and I didn’t start for another 20 minutes (union thing).
        3 I can forgive the first and even second office because there’s so many ways to spell my name. Even though my email is firstname.lastname@emailplace.com. sigh.

    7. Partly Cloudy*

      1. At my last job, people would put papers in my chair instead of my CLEARLY LABELED inbox on my desk if I wasn’t in my office when they came by to drop off whatever. If I did happen to be sitting in my chair, people would hold out said papers and wait for me to reach out and take them. Literally, if they had just let go, the papers would have landed in my inbox. I’d passive-aggressively take them and then instantly put them in my inbox while the person was still standing there.

      2. People who can see that I’m on the phone but hover nearby, waiting to talk to me. For several minutes, not just the few seconds it takes to get a feel for whether the phone call is about to end or not.

      3. People who leave a voicemail or send an email saying they have a question and could I please get back to them. WHAT is your question? I can start working on it and get back to you with some information instead of going in totally blind.

      1. Kelly L.*

        #1 once got to the point where I didn’t notice an important paper in my actual inbox, because no one had actually put anything there (instead of chairmail/keyboardmail) in months!

      2. beachlover*

        I worked with someone that did that constantly, even after I specifically asked them to put everything in my in box. I would go through my in box several times a day, and everyone knew that. (this is prior to email) After being ignored, I told them that anything on my chair would automatically go to the “round” file. I actually watched them place papers on my chair, walked in behind them and in full view “filed” the papers. They started putting things in my in box .

      3. Sunflower*

        3# makes me paranoid. Makes me feel like they want to talk to me about something that isn’t going to go well.

      4. DMented Kitty*

        #2 and #3! For #2, one time I had one guy just outwardly ask me, “are you busy?” when he can clearly see me in my headset, TALKING. He hovered about for a couple minutes until I paused my talking (but still listening to the call), and started asking me questions that are not urgent AT ALL! I was really annoyed that time.

        For #3 — I work as tier 2 IT support, and I hate it when Helpdesk just sends me tickets with the vaguest info. “Caller has an issue clicking a button.” Nothing else in the description. Which freaking button? Where? You realize there are a hundred possible buttons in our app?

        Also, those people who just sent you an invite to a meeting out of the blue without info besides the Subject. OK, so this meeting is about Chocolate Teapots, can you elaborate what about the Chocolate Teapots, as it seems like I was included because I get the feeling I need to do research on this first because it looks like you need my input?

    8. Laurel Gray*

      I have a coworker who mis and overuses the exclamation point in email. I can’t tell excitement or yelling at this point. She also does not use the subject line often.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Ugh. This is the worst, along with a thousand smiley faces. This is work, not your teenage diary.

        1. Nanc*

          Oh lordy, the thousand smiley faces on the email with the red ! begging me to help you on the thing you’ve know for 6 months is due tomorrow. At 4:45 p.m. After you’ve spent the day farting around on social media (yes, I can see your monitor from my desk!) and running around taking a survey on who would like different coffee. I’m going home and writing nasty things about you in my diary/slam book.

          Smiley faces do not belong in office emails, unless you work for the Smiley Face Corporation and are asking for feedback on the next upgrade/version.

      2. Rat Racer*

        I used to work with a physician who WOULD TYPE IN CAPS ALL THE TIME. It felt like she was constantly yelling at me. I think she meant to do it in lieu of bold face, or other more subtler means of emphasis, but there’s something about an all caps email that makes me feel like I’ve been scolded.

        1. Nashira*

          People in my office do it because they don’t realize the claims system autoconverts text into uppercase, so they leave capslock on forever. It takes all my willpower to not solemnly inform them that capslock is not cruise control for awesome.

      3. DMented Kitty*

        LOL I have one lady who had this in her email signature:

        “Thank YOU!!!”

        So I don’t know if she feels thankful for any help, or if she’s being sarcastic all the time?

      4. OriginalEmma*

        I have a colleague who drives her keyboard in caps lock cruise control. It’s awful.

    9. Ann Furthermore*

      This isn’t really a co-worker email complaint, but it’s an email complaint. I work for a huge, multi-national corporation. Every few months, we all (everyone in my company, plus everyone at the parent company and its other subsidiaries) gets an email encouraging us to reach out to our congressional representatives and urge them to vote in favor some legislation that is beneficial for the parent company. The funding debate is a hot-button issue right now, with lots of partisan bickering, posturing, and bloviating, resulting in funding being approved for the next 3-6 months.

      So an email signed by the CEO is circulated to all of us, asking us to urge our representatives to support this program, implying that if funding is not approved it could lead to layoffs or other financial hardships for the company. Then to add insult to injury, there’s a friendly reminder that since this is not specifically work related, we must do this on our own time.

      This annoys me in so many ways. First, what if I happen to not agree with this particular legislation? Why is my employer allowed to try and strong-arm me? Second, this comes off to me (and many others I’ve talked to) as if the CEO seems to think that every employee is a member of his own personal army of lobbyists who will do his bidding at the drop of a hat. Third, in my view it takes a lot of gall and audacity to pressure people in this way, when budgets are being slashed left and right and no one is allowed to add any headcount.

      Grrr.

      1. Liz in a Library*

        We used to get these messages all the time when I worked in the for-profit ed industry. So irritating! Doubly so because you can’t really complain about legitimate concerns about the job interfering in your political life because then you are anti-business!

        1. Ann Furthermore*

          Yes, this exactly! I’m sure my company has plenty of lobbyists at its disposal, and probably contributes to super PAC’s and all the rest of it, and yet we’re still pressured to do this.

    10. Margali*

      I try to keep the emails I send concise, and if I have multiple questions that need to be answered, I put them in as a bulleted or numbered list. There’s one person who makes me pull my hair out because he will respond to questions #1 and #3 with a yes or no answer when the question clearly required a more detailed response, and skip answering #2 entirely.

      1. Oh Anon*

        I used to work with a woman who would do this. It drove me NUTS! Eventually, I’d just have to call her because it was obvious she had a reading comprehension problem. *rolls eyes*

    11. Traveler*

      They never use it. And when they do, its to CC me on crap that is irrelevant to me.

      When people use smiley faces in emails. I appreciate the sentiment, because I’ve been tempted to do it on occasion to set the tone of my email but… 1. it just comes across as unprofessional 2. When John Smith Sr. who is anything but smiley or emote-y in person, sends me a smiley face in an email when there’s no reason it was called for I can’t help but wonder what he was thinking.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      People who email about something previously discussed in email but who do not include the rest of the thread in their replies.

      I DO NOT WANT TO SAVE SIXTY EMAILS IN MY INBOX JUST SO I CAN REMEMBER THIS CONVERSATION! D:<

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        The flip side of that is getting an e-mail that is a mile long and nothing but “see below”. I freakin’ *hate* that. You want me to do TaskA or this e-mail includes informationB that I asked for, is it really so hard to just highlight that, copy it and send me that one thing? Seriously, I have to sit here for several minutes reading through the whole chain to get the information I need? You obviously know your e-mail contains the information I want, or you wouldn’t have included “see below” as your comment at the top. Because I really, really want to scroll through a 50 page e-mail half of which is only people’s signatures or tangents or whatever to mine that one nugget of information I need.

        If I have a question about whatever “see below” is, I copy that relevant piece of text and reply back… then I get chastised for not sending the whole thing back. Uh, you don’t need the whole thing, I copied out the pertinent stuff you need to answer so you wouldn’t have to spend a half hour reviewing the whole conversation. The answer I need isn’t in the whole conversation, I just reviewed it and I only need this answered. I should start replying in red at the point I need a comment on and add “see below my question in red” but that’s probably what they want! Aaaugh!

        1. Karowen*

          The middle ground here would be to highlight it “below” in yellow and to copy it into the current email you’re talking about. Then they have the context and they can easily get to the part you’re discussing.

        2. catsAreCool*

          I hate that, too. If someone wants my help, maybe that person can spend a minute or so giving a decent description instead of trying to force me to spend 10 minutes trying to figure out what the problem is.

      2. DMented Kitty*

        If the thread is very long to follow, I typically cut out the irrelevant pieces of it if I want someone else to look at it. Like the “Forwarding…” or “Thank you.” or “Please advise.” pieces of the conversation. And include a brief topic of what I need from the person I’m forwarding to, pointing to the below text.

        I really hate it when people ask me to see “below thread, please advise” and I have to scroll through three miles of text and figure out which part they need my inputs on. It feels like they barely even glanced the email and just tossing the ball on to me, when sometimes THEY actually know the answer.

    13. VictoriaHR*

      The one older lady who “reply all” responds to everything with “Thanks Soandso!” Not even useful information.

      1. Lizzie*

        +1

        We get a lot of emails sent to the entire district (9 schools + central office, so we’re talking hundreds of people) concerning deaths of former staff members or family members of current/former staff members. I appreciate that the folks who send these want people to know so that they can send condolences, attend memorials, etc. – relevant information like that is always included. What I appreciate less is that so many people think that they need to “Reply All” to say “So sad,” or “So sorry to hear about Bill’s passing,” or whatever. Please, people – just send a quick email to the relatives! I don’t need 50 one-liners in my inbox from people about how Bill is in a better place now.

      2. DMented Kitty*

        I rarely reply all with “Thanks, Soandso!”, I only do it occasionally to my coworkers that I think would help the managers feel they’re being acknowledged and may help their ratings (e.g. “Thanks, Soandso! Great job on catching the issue!”).

        Otherwise, if I want to send regards to someone mentioned in a group email I don’t reply all, just to the person it’s relevant to.

    14. anonima in tejas*

      1) the use of the reply all at completely random/inappropriate times.
      2) thank’s emails.
      3) email replies that ask for information that I included in the original email

    15. VictoriaHR*

      People who don’t read fully before forwarding just so that they can pass the issue.

      When I was going through a psychological diagnosis, I told my director in an email (because he does not work in the same office) and that I was interested in a new job that he’d mentioned on a call that day, because it would be more in line with the limitations I have per that diagnosis.

      Then he immediately forwarded the email mentioning my diagnosis to the hiring manager for that job. Uh, thanks. That was sorta private…

      1. Kelly L.*

        Ugh, this too. It’s gotten to the point where I won’t say anything even vaguely undiplomatic in an email, because too often the person will just forward it absently to whoever I was annoyed at.

    16. Steve G*

      People who complain they get “hundreds” of emails a day, even though they don’t, or 1/2 are spam and you can just delete, and most of the rest are simple yes/no questions. Don’t complain about too many emails when you are reading the news on your phone in the middle of the day. Don’t be dramatic and act like you are so busy and important!

      1. attornaut*

        Ugh, people who complain about being busy constantly. We have someone who is CONSTANTLY acting like they are so overloaded they can barely function, yet I hear them on personal calls, or telling the same story over and over to different people in the office, or making things unnecessarily complicated for themselves. I think it’s a way of getting more attention/resources.

    17. just laura*

      “Cheers” and “whilst” and other British terms — from Americans. Sigh. This mostly happens from academics in English departments but it always grates on my nerves!

      1. Liz in a Library*

        Could it be somewhat regional? I don’t think of whilst as being a British term. A little old-fashioned maybe, but I see it in American writing fairly commonly.

        1. fposte*

          Really? I’ve never seen it from anybody in the US who wasn’t an Anglophile. “Amidst” I see a little more often, but not “whilst.”

    18. Clever Clogs*

      Unclear subject lines are a pet peeve of mine; a one word subject or subject lines that have the random attachment name set by our scanner can send me right over the edge. I don’t know why more people don’t edit or change the subject line to make it appropriate to the email.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        I hate that, too. Sometimes I will change it because I can’t see how the other person can keep it straight either.

        Another thing I hate is the “Thanks Team!” mass e-mail… because someone is always accidentally forgotten, so it spawns another mass e-mail “Oh, and I thought I had mentioned Jane and all her valuable contributions to this project, but it was pointed out that I didn’t. My bad, so way to go Jane for getting us those TPS reports on time!” and then another. I get that people liked to be thanked for their contribution by name, but it gets ridiculous at a point.

      2. beachlover*

        +1, or no subject line at all! Also, when they change to a whole new issue using a subject line from another email. really makes it hard to search for emails.

      3. Sunflower*

        My one coworker writes entire emails in the subject line. Sometimes it’s okay but if it’s longer than a sentence…just don’t.

    19. A.K.*

      1. People who use generic subjects or no subjects so i have NO IDEA what the email is about before reading it.
      2. Related to 1. – people who reply to an old, irrelevant email to start a new conversation with me instead of just finding my address and composing a new email.

      1. Kelly L.*

        OMG, so much #2 there.

        Re: TPS reports due

        Message: Kelly, I need toner for my printer.

      2. Anonsie*

        Oh my GOD the people who reply to some old email for new stuff. Oh my god those people.

        1. Natalie*

          I got one of these recently that was the epitome of not paying attention.

          We sold a building months and months ago, so we don’t manage or it or have anything else to do with it. A tenant sent me an email last week about that building. She had found my email address by searching for the last email I sent her… which was the contact information for the new manager.

          After I politely explained the situation again, she asked me for the new manager’s contact information.

      3. Elsajeni*

        Aaargh, yes, #2! Come on — if you found that old email I sent you, you’ve got my address right there in the “from” box! You can copy it over into a new email! With a subject line related to your actual problem, and without a long chain of extraneous information at the bottom! (Can you tell I just got one of these?)

        1. Natalie*

          In outlook you don’t even need to copy it! If you hover over the name a box pops up with the address as a link.

      4. bridget*

        or the converse, where the email subject is 3-4 sentences long, with nothing in the body. A few times I have had to scroll down multiple times in the little window for the subject, reading one line at a time and trying to piece it all together, instead of a block of text in the body.

    20. Elizabeth*

      I’ve written about this here before, but at my last job, my boss would do double question marks after every question, no matter how mundane. To clarify, it wasn’t like I or anyone else had been avoiding answering it and she was annoyed or conveying urgency or something, this was just how she wrote out all questions.

      “Elizabeth, could you give Apollo a call??”
      “Elizabeth, could you place the order for our working lunch??”
      “Could someone bring the binders for the Historical Teapot Research Grant to the accounting office??”

      Granted, at this point in the job, everything she did annoyed me, but it led to even minor emails sounding manic/stressed/intense.

      2. Kay*

        Our PR person uses the ?! constantly. I have partial control over our Facebook page so I’ve gone back in and edited posts that have ended sentences with ??!!?!?!!!!. Not even exaggerating.

        1. Liz in a Library*

          Awww…but the actual interrobang (?!, I’m too lazy to look up the keyboard shortcut to show them intwined) is genuinely useful and is a single piece of punctuation!

        2. Elizabeth*

          Oh man, you nailed it. Boss lady did ?!, not ??. When I was typing it, it seemed off somehow. The last few months of that job were so frustrating, I think my brain must have blanked out many of the details to keep me from going nutty.

    21. Ann Furthermore*

      Here’s my all-time, hands-down best (or most horrifying, depending on how you look at it) story about email.

      Manager had an employee on a PIP, and was working through things with HR. The employee did not fulfill the conditions of the PIP, and so Manager reached out to HR to start the termination process. HR sent an email with the pertinent details to Manager, with “Termination of Employee X” in the subject line. Manager had the new message notification enabled in Outlook, which shows the email, who it’s from and the subject line in the lower right corner of your screen.

      When the email was received, Manager was projecting his laptop in a meeting to all his direct reports, conducting, of all things, the annual ethics training we all have to do each year. So all of his direct reports, including Employee X, saw the email with “Termination of Employee X” in the subject line pop up — and just to add insult to injury, it was a pretty big group, in one of the largest conference rooms in the building, that has an ENORMOUS screen so people in the back are able to see.

      According to what I heard, Manager slammed his laptop closed, and immediately went to the HR office. And was standing in the middle of their area, saying, “I NEED HR ASSISTANCE RIGHT NOW!!!” in a very panicked tone of voice.

      The person who told me that story was the one who sent the email….and said he learned 2 lessons from that. First, disable the new message notification in Outlook! And second, make sure your subject lines do not contain any sensitive or confidential information.

      Can. You. Even. Imagine.

      1. Karowen*

        Yeah, just exit Outlook altogether when you’re projecting your screen. You never know what someone is going to email you, and Outlook also includes the first line(ish) in the pop-up. So you could mess things up even if you don’t include confidential email in the subject line just by opening your email with “As discussed, Bob is failing his PIP so here are the steps you need to take to terminate him:”

        1. Ann Furthermore*

          That notification thing can really bite you. I have mine disabled altogether. As another benefit, it helps me stop getting distracted since I’m not seeing that little box pop up in the corner all the time.

          The person who told me this story also said that he felt absolutely horrible about what happened, because what an awful way to find out that you’re getting fired!

          1. Anonymous this time around*

            Disabling notifications was the single best thing I’ve ever done for my productivity. I am on my email constantly–I look at it literally hundreds of times a day, I’ll bet–but when I want to focus, I don’t have that little pop-up darting into my line of vision and yanking me out of my flow.

            This story is nowhere near as good as yours, but I do enjoy telling it.

            Some years back I was in charge of coaching the customer-service agents who answered phones and emails for one of our lines of business. Each week, I would randomly select several incidents from each agent, review the audio/video footage of the incident, fill out a scoring sheet, listen to/watch the incident with the agent, and review it with him or her. I was good at it and enjoyed it, and I had a great team.

            One day I pulled up an incident for one of our agents, and the screen showed her Gmail open to a message. Not just any message, but a message accepting another job at another company. And she hadn’t given any kind of notice. We had to sit and watch the footage while listening to the audio, and then I had to say, “Uh, Jane, was there something you meant to tell me?”

        2. Windchime*

          I also disable Outlook if I’m going to a meeting and will be projecting my screen. I usually won’t get any messages as sensitive as the one mentioned above, but still–I might get a reply to something snarky I sent earlier to someone, or something about lunch plans or whatever. Safer to just exit completely.

      2. Anonsie*

        Hehehehe I’ve been in meetings where someone was presenting and they left their Outlook notifications on, and you see popups of emails from people who are in that very meeting. You look over and they’re trying to subtly work on their phone under the table and not paying attention. This is always really funny to me for some reason.

      3. Anx*

        I see this is pretty often, actually.

        I was quite annoyed with an instructor that was checking his email while his laptop was being projected. He was checking it because I emailed him twice with no response and he had apparently opened it but still didn’t know what I was talking about. I was horrified. He’s being fired, though, now, for other stuff. I mean people make mistakes but he was just pretty unaware of these things in general.

        Can you imagine if you had emails about a disability? Terrible.

      4. OriginalEmma*

        Ah, the dangers of new message notification. During a regional teleconference for my company, Person A was talking on the conference call but Person B’s screen was being televised. Up pops the auto notification message from Person C on the screen of Person B, which is being televised to the entire region, that says something along the lines of “God, I can’t stand when Person A talks.”

    22. louise*

      New co-worker started an email with “Hi, this is Jane.” Sign your email –Jane and don’t introduce yourself, for goodness’ sake.

      1. louise*

        Oh, thought of another. A vendor will respond to an email so I get the Re: subject that I first labelled, but my original text is no longer there! So she’ll answer a question, but I can’t remember exactly what I asked without a conversation thread. Geesh.

        1. S from CO*

          I have vendors who call me instead of replying to my email asking for a ship date (then on the phone vendor proceeds to explain the issue holding up the order; lets say component delay, delivery of end unit will be late a couple of weeks, etc…). I always ask them to email me their response since I have to forward the information to QC and engineering. Then it takes them days to send an email with their explanation.
          And recently a vendor asked me to explain what a FAIR (first article inspection report) was and can I send a sample /template to them! They told me that they have never been asked to complete a FAIR!
          AMAZING!?

      2. Cath in Canada*

        I have a colleague who not only states her name, but will type the date and time in manually at the top of all her emails. It’s as if she doesn’t know about, or maybe doesn’t trust, the automatic time stamp. She used to work for the US DOD so maybe it’s something she picked up there.

    23. Anonsie*

      Ugh, I have to do #3 a lot because I have two demographics for the meeting: people who are internal and can get the meeting invite, and people who are external and may or may not actually receive a calendar invite if you send it to them based on their own setup. There’s also a third group that overlaps with the first one who for some reason only ever look at their email, never their calendar, and require a separate email with the same details be sent. I want to make sure all my bases are covered so I always send out both at the same time, but I haaate doing it because it looks unorganized and annoying to the people who get both notifications and actually use their calendars.

    24. Kay*

      Our development director writes all her emails in royal blue Comic Sans.

      One other staff member writes “Thanks!” to every.single.email. you send her. Possibly 5% of my total received messages are her writing “Thanks!” after I’ve sent her just some quick info that did not need a reply. She also will keep up an email back-and-forth with cutesy jokes for 3 or 4 more emails when all you’re doing is trying to give her a piece of information, or get a piece of information.

      1. Natalie*

        I’m not sure I’d say it’s every email, but I reply “thanks” back to a lot of emails. It’s basically a delivery receipt – you know I got this and don’t need to follow up in a week asking if I got it.

      2. Cath in Canada*

        We have an otherwise great admin assistant who insists on using email stationery – sort of a pale sky-blue background with wispy cloud patterns, and a pseudo-cursive font. It’s really hard to read, and sometimes the stationery shows up as an attachment, which I always open just in case and then it’s just a patch of sky.

        1. louise*

          Ugh, yes, we’ve got one of those, too! I find it hard to take her seriously. When I reply, I always remove the background.

        2. Natalie*

          The Home Depot’s stationery is apparently memory-hogging enough that it actually locks up my Outlook for a brief moment. Jags.

    25. Sunflower*

      – Getting emails forwarded to me with absolutely ZERO mention of why it’s being forwarded to me.
      – I have a coworker who sometimes ends informal emails in a thought with ‘…’ at the end. ex- ‘we ordered 5 teapots…’ It makes me nervous. Like accusing me of something? pondering? asking? WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

    26. Jessilein*

      Sometimes when my boss wants to email our staff, he likes me to look over the email first and let him know if he forgot anything. So, he prints the email out, walks down the hall, and presents it to me for my suggestions. JUST EMAIL IT TO ME SO I CAN EDIT IT AND SEND IT BACK TO YOU. Geez. He also doesn’t respond to about 50% of the emails I send him, so there’s another peeve. Maybe if I printed out my emails and brought them down to him, he would respond!

    27. JB*

      Do you really dislike the person who does the second one? Because there’s nothing about doing that kind of thing that in and of itself that seems to deserve that strong of a reaction, but it’s exactly the sort of thing that would drive someone crazy when you really don’t like the person who does it.

    28. NewishAnon*

      When I ask someone 2 or 3 questions in an email and they only respond to one, with absolutely NO mention of the others. Then I have to write them back and ask again. Really infuriating when the second email comes back and they still only answered 1 of the 2 remaining questions and I have to send a third email.

    29. StillHealing*

      Currently, no one annoys me – which feels like this position is too good to be true. What has annoyed me the most at past jobs were people who would frequently interrupt me for non work related personal issues. For whatever reason, people have always sought me out to tell me their personal problems. The more I listened and expressed concern or provided suggestions, the more frequent the interruptions. When I tried to steer myself back to work and expressed how urgent my deadlines were, etc. the more panicked and needy some people would get. How dare I think my work was more important than their personal issue of the day???

      Currently, my supervisor does come in and talk frequently about historical departmental issues and/or frustrations, but he’s full of so much knowledge and it’s all work related so it doesn’t really bother me.

      I don’t know how to not be the person people come talk to/with. If Alison or anyone has some suggestions, I’d love to hear what works to get people to respect my time a bit more. Maybe I need to get another degree – in Psychology ?

      1. StillHealing*

        Oh..email habits….lol, my brain jumped right over that part. Ignore what I wrote above.

  12. Ali*

    I am thankfully traveling right now for a weekend away that I planned some months ago, but unfortunately, things still aren’t better at my job. I got a final written warning yesterday, and in it, my boss brought up two mistakes (maybe three) that he had already talked about with me and I acknowledged and understood. I also got penalized for something that he said was a writer error. It even was written as “the writer did such and such wrong.”

    I admit that I am a bit disappointed it’s at this point because my efforts haven’t been enough, and I wish I hadn’t focused so much on being a high achiever and moving up. But it sucks that my boss is hostile and keeps bringing up the same mistakes over and over instead of finding newer examples, if he has any. Here we are in March and he is still complaining about typos from January. He also says he “will not accept” continued mistakes from me.

    I am mad and sad, but at this point, I am going to try looking at this as a blessing in disguise so I can take the plunge and try things I have been afraid to try in the past. I still don’t have any job offers, but I do feel more open to going for temp jobs or career changes and seeing what happens.

    1. Saleslady*

      I was in a similar situation years ago. There was a moment my boss was just done with me and no matter how hard I tried to improve, she would find something to nitpick about. I ended up taking what seemed like a crappy sales job just to get out but to my surprise it turned into a calling for me! The difference I feel now that I am actually GOOD at my job has made everything in my life that much better. Take a chance on something else and get out now before it really crushes your spirit. You are not doing yourself favors by staying there.

      1. Jazzy Red*

        The managers in the division that my sister worked did this to *ALL* the older admins. They left the younger ones alone, and now all the older ones are so happy to be out of there.

    2. LMW*

      I feel for you! I was in a similar position once — I’d been promoted a few times and then I was moved into a new position where my boss just didn’t like me. She’d harp on a single mistake repeatedly, but was never able to point out additional issues. Just vague “You need to improve on this,” which is impossible to do, when you don’t have examples. And there’s only so long that you can apologize for a typo from months ago.

      My solution was to find a new role and I was lucky to get a new boss who helped me get back that sense of achievement. I hope you find something too. (Another note: I took the plunge into temp work a few years later — I’ve written about it here before. I moved from publishing to a temp position in the corporate world. It was hard, and three years without benefits sucked. But I have a new career that a really enjoy and it ended up giving me a lot more security in the long run. So even though a plunge might be initially scary and hard, they can really help you get to a good place too!)

    3. Tiffany In Houston*

      Ali,

      I have been where you are and it’s good that you are getting a weekend trip in. Being on a final written warning probably means that your time at that job is coming to a close, so you need to be prepared.

      Start discreetly cleaning off your desk and cleaning up your computer. If you have contacts you want to stay in touch with, then email them to yourself. Try to schedule doctors and dentist appointments while you have insurance and look at your states unemployment benefits.

      Good luck! My prayers is that your next job is more suited to what you want to do!

      2. LMW*

        I’d add to this: Make sure you save any writing samples or personal files to a place you can access them outside your company. Since you’re in a comms field, you’ll probably want them.

      3. Sunflower*

        I agree. I will also suggest that you run any reports you need to get percentages/increases to put together highlights and achievements at your work.

    4. cuppa*

      I’m so sorry at how this is going out for you. I hope this whole situation brings better things for you in the future.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I’m so sorry about your job. Sometimes bosses get stuck on things and they just cannot let go. It’s tough to soar like an eagle at work, when your boss is an ostrich. He has a bug up his butt and probably there is no solving it.

      You are right though, these things happen for a reason. It makes us push ourselves along. We have to go find something else. May your next gig be the total opposite of this one!

      1. C Average*

        I am imagining an ostrich with a bug up its butt. The mental picture is amusing.

        In all seriousness, this is spot on.

        I, too, hope your new gig is in all respects an improvement on the current one. You’ve had a long slog.

    6. Golden Yeti*

      Ugh. Sorry things are where they are. I’m glad that in spite of it, though, you are feeling empowered to make better things happen. :)

  13. TotesMaGoats*

    Trying desperately to get out of super toxic environment. Pompous a-hole of a boss actually had me in tears a couple days ago. Thankfully, he doesn’t know that. I’ve got a decade of experience so please continue to speak to me as though this is my first job. Yes, my success has been an absolute fluke and I need you to tell me how to do my job. And while you are at it, please continue to not listen to anything I say. Whew.

    So, looking and found a couple good options. One is asking for salary requirements in the cover letter. This is kind of unusual, at least in my area of higher education. What should I put? I’m thinking of something like “I’m looking for a salary in the range of X-Y but am flexible.” With X being a little bit more than what I’m making now.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      I’d do a range, as well, but I’d make sure the bottom of the range was something I was willing to do the job for. I might amend the “I am flexible” part to include where/how you’re flexible. (even if it’s just “depending on other aspects of the position”). That could be vacation time, retirement contribution, telecommuting/flex-schedule–whatever it is that makes the job more appealing to you.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      So if you follow what he says- if you quit the job you will be all cured. But he will remain an AH.

      I hope his next employee is just like him. grrr.

      Somewhere there is someone who will think you are a miracle in their life. They are just waiting for you to apply.

    5. Sunflower*

      Almost every university job I’ve applied to had a pay grade listed in the application. Google ‘x university pay grade’ and the entire list will come up and you should be able to match up the grade with the range.

      I put my bottom number as the number i would take if the job had AMAZING benefits. Minimum it would take to quit. Make sure you do your research though so you don’t sell yourself short.

  14. RetailManager*

    After reading this blog for several years and following the resume and cover letter advice given, I made the career switch from a big corporate environment to a tiny non-profit arts organization about six months ago. There have been some adjustments, but the most frustrating for me has been email communication. How do I ensure my members read the important communication I send them? We communicate via a Yahoo group (I know–I am trying to convince the board to consider a database that has a similar feature) where I send out important volunteer requests and advance notice for events and meetings. I also maintain a Google Calendar that mirrors this information. I’ve had many members, including board members, say they didn’t get notification of important dates, so I direct them to previous emails and the calendar, but I’d like to be more proactive in my communication.

    I’ve tried saccharine emails (REALLY difficult for me, but this group needs a lot of hand holding), bullet points every week (this has always worked for me in the past, but I’ve gotten feedback that members get overwhelmed), and short, single topic emails (problem is, there is a lot going on!). Do you have any successful approaches or style guides for this type of communication?

    1. fposte*

      I might take the question farther upstream–rather than asking how to make them read emails, I’d ask what form of communication they’re likeliest to attend to.

      But ultimately this is a challenge in any organization where there’s a lot of signal going on-sheer volume starts to make it noise. We use redundancy as much as possible–calender listings, specialized location listings, announcements–and lots of reminders and individual followups; I’m not sure if that’s optimal, but I don’t have control over the underlying system. Ultimately, you can’t make them read anything–you can only make it as easy as possible for them to get the information and accept that some of them just aren’t going to.

    2. TCO*

      How many people are actually complaining? Is it a small vocal minority who won’t be content no matter what you do, because it’s their fault they don’t read e-mails?If there are some strong personalities among your member base (there always are), try asking your coworkers for their insight on how to most productively build relationships and communicate with these people. They might have helpful advice or even just some reassurance that these members are just hard to please.

      Also, you might need to adjust your expectations–you are not going to get 100% readership or response. You just won’t. If you design systems that anticipate that, rather than by surprised by it, you might be happier.

    3. AVP*

      I think it depends on what exactly your goal is. Do you want them to sign up for shifts? Do you want them to just be aware of what’s going on?

      Also, I don’t know if the Yahoo system does this, but I know if you have a google group, people can set their preferences to get email less often – is it possible the higher up people have theirs set to a weekly digest or something, in which they’re getting the emails after the event has happened?

      Also, is this all happening on the same group, or do you have it split up so that the relevant info is only going to the people it’s relevant to? Sometimes those groups get so unwieldy that people just stop looking at them (and then, of course, blame you if they miss something critical).

    4. Well*

      I’d need to know more about your situation, but some generalities.

      First of all, know that there are literally entire professions devoted to answering the question “how do I get my audience to actually read this email I’m sending them?” So don’t feel bad that you’re struggling with this. Secondly, remember that these people are (I assume, depending on what you mean by ‘members’) mostly doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. Odds are that even for your board members your emails are not the most important things in their inbox each day – maybe they don’t even crack the top 10 list.

      So, with that said, some tips I’ve found for working with board members/volunteers:

      1) Practice brevity. If something’s so complicated that it takes paragraphs and paragraphs for you to explain, maybe a call is better.
      2) Send proactive reminders. If it’s super important, at least two. (E.g. if your gala is a month out and you just got your volunteers signed up, send an email reminder two weeks out and three days out.)
      3) When the stakes are high, make reminder phone calls, not just email. If you only have board meetings twice a year, taking ten minutes to call each of your board members in the week or two leading up to the meeting is probably worth it. (This also lets you try to minimize the odds of being blindsided by anyone’s crazy ideas, sometimes a challenge at nonprofit board meetings!) If this is your annual gala and you have ten or fifteen volunteer members, and without them the event is likely to flop, likewise. Note that you don’t have to frame it to them as a “hey I just wanted to remind you that you said you’d come on Thursday.” It can be as simple as “hey Frodo. Thanks so much for signing up to volunteer on Thursday. We’re hoping to have volunteers there by 4:30 – can you still make that? Ok, just as a reminder that the attire is business. And don’t worry about dinner — food’s on us for you guys, and we’ve got breaks built in to your schedule. Any questions? No? Okay, if anything comes up and you’re not able to make it, you can call me and let me know. My number is 555-555-5555. Thanks again, we couldn’t do it without you – and see you Thursday at 4:30!”

      Now, all that said, if this is a constantly recurring issue that seems to happen across communications channels and modes, you may want to consider if there are symptoms that indicate you have a larger problem. Are your members constantly canceling at the last minute? Does your board seem bored or uninterested in the work of the organization? If so, you might have a larger problem with how effectively you’re inspiring people to be involved in your cause.

      1. MsM*

        Also, if your board members are VIPs, make sure you copy their assistants on everything, and call them with reminders. In my experience, that’s usually the only way to make sure they receive stuff.

    5. Kay*

      You don’t say what your position at the nonprofit is. Are you the communications manager? The executive director? If you’re not the ED, and you’re new, and you’re dealing with nonprofit employees who have been there forever you might be dealing with some resistance from people who are used to doing things at a slower, more bite-sized pace.

      Are you communicating with members as in other employees, or members as in you’re a member-based organization and they are your public? Both? I think it’s a very different communication style depending on who you’re talking to and what you’re trying to do.

      Keep in mind too that Google Calendar is a surprisingly opaque app for people who are not computer literate. Might it be better listed out somewhere on a plain website – can you maintain a common document in the Yahoo Groups back end? Put something on your website?

    6. Snork Maiden*

      I put read receipts and delivery confirmation on important emails (I know, it’s annoying to the receiver, but it’s less annoying than missing it entirely). I’ll also follow up with calls.

  15. dang*

    Omg. I needed this today.

    I just got a verbal offer from a well regarded academic institution. A month after a ten minute phone conversation.

    This is wacky right???? I am right for being nervous? Ice been job hunting for almost two years and this is my first offer other than my temp job.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Yeah, that would be concerning to me…. no in person interview? Plus, I would want any offer in writing.

      1. dang*

        Research manager at a university I’ve been rejected from for two other jobs after multiple interviews.

        2. fposte*

          Oh, I’m reading it differently–I was thinking it means that dang’s had extensive interviews previously so they knew her from those and didn’t feel they needed to go through the whole thing again.

          1. Dang*

            I’ve interviewed for two other similar positions so it’s very possible that the hiring manager talked to the other hiring managers- they are different departments within the same large university.

            My first inclination was to assume it was a mistake, but I’ve exchanged a few emails with HR that definitely negate that.

            I told HR I was surprised and wondered if she could shed any light on why I’d be getting an offer before an in-person interview and they told me that they didn’t want to make me travel (it’s about a 3 hr drive so no big deal) and decided on the phone conversation and my credentials.

            Which is just as WTF to me as it was when I first read that email a few hours ago!

    3. Malissa*

      A little wierd, but maybe 10 minutes was all they needed to see what an awesome person you are? I’d definitaly ask for a stroll around the office prior to accepting.

      2. dang*

        Haha that must be it ;) I’m just used to interviewers being totally into me for three interviews and then never hearing from them again…

      3. Elizabeth West*

        It could be that the hiring manager talked to the people dang interviewed with already and they thought s/he would be perfect for this other position. But I agree–I’d be asking lots of questions and definitely would want the offer in writing.

      4. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Doesn’t matter how awesome you are — no matter how great you are, you won’t be the right fit for every job, and at this point they have no way of knowing if you’re the right fit for theirs, unless they’ve worked with you previously. I’d be concerned they’re offering you a role you won’t excel in and that both parties will realize that a month or two in.

        You need to talk with them more. Plus, even if they’re sold on you, you can’t be sold on them yet — you haven’t learned enough about them. Ask them for a meeting to talk more in-depth about the role and the organization.

        Under no circumstances should you commit to spending half your waking life somewhere for the next few years on the basis of a 10-minute conversation.

        1. Anonsie*

          For what it’s worth, since this is an academic environment and the position is for a research manager, they may have a really really urgent need to bring someone in now but also not have anyone really available to talk to the candidates in any depth. Which is bad, don’t get me wrong, but… Academic research is pretty messy and a lot of stuff that’s normal for us in terms of management practices would probably make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.

          So I would be significantly less alarmed by this under Dang’s circumstances than I would if it was another source. But yes, definitely call them and get some more information and find out what the heck.

          1. Dang*

            Phew, thanks everyone for your input!

            AAM.. these are exactly my concerns. While the job description admittedly feels like it was written for me and is even a step up from what I’m used to (which is more of a research associate/specialist role), I’m a little bit weirded out by the whole thing. Especially when a month after the “interview” the hiring manager began trying to negotiate salary with me via email. When I told him my expectations (which are higher than I’d normally request for a variety of reasons, including the fact that this would require a relocation without relocation assistance) he told me his number which was slightly lower than the low end of my range. I said I could still consider it and then I got this notice that I was going to receive a verbal offer once my references were contacted (so technically it’s a pre-verbal offer, but I was typing from my phone and couldn’t explain the whole thing).

            I went back and read AAM’s articles about this (I knew I’d read about this situation before!) and along with her comment, those are exactly my concerns. That this role is either too advanced for me, or isn’t a good fit for whatever reason, and I’ll have moved there and will be stuck and screwed even more than I am currently (as a temp with a steady but limited income and the luxury of living with family until I get my life back in order. Ironically I was in a car accident two weeks ago and my 20 year old car was totaled and I had to buy a new car… which is the car of my dreams, that I would have to turn around and re-sell if I take this job because of the location and cost of keeping a car there).

            Even before this I kind of had a weird feeling about the whole thing. I honestly thought the phone interview was just a formality so they could say they talked to x number of people and hire the internal person they wanted!

            So thank you for the reminder that I should NOT base my decision on a 10-minute phone call. I clearly need more information! I do agree with anonsie and academicanon that it’s not completely bizarre for academia (or at least less bizarre than it would be in other industries/fields) but it still just doesn’t feel quite right and I need more info.

            1. fposte*

              Dang, are any of these folks people who were involved in your previous interviews there? That to me would explain their willingness to fast-track, if so.

              1. Dang*

                No but it’s entirely possible that they have worked with my other interviewers. They are all in different departments but the same university/division.

            2. Anonsie*

              I’m kind of an ornery person but I’d laugh all the way back to my current job if I gave someone a range and they came back with a figure under my bottom line. It’s different since you have an end point for your current position, though. When is your funding up?

              What city would you be moving to and how big of a change is it, if you don’t mind disclosing? This is a big risk, obviously, even if their offer and negotiations didn’t come in a weird way (although if you were talking to a PI or someone like that, I’d cut even more slack in there) and the pay wasn’t under your desired range. Right now you have your family safety net, and relocating is going to remove that safety and add in a lot of costs, so the risk of this placement not working out is considerably higher than if it was local. And since they’ve already shown you how much they value you, industry-related slack or no, that should leave you with an eye on how much support you are going to get in this role and in this relocation. Even if they’re really really nice and this is grant or institution-enforced limit or something, that limit exists and their ability to get your wiggle room in there is small. Your team can be awesome and if they constantly have their hands tied in management, hiring, compensation (which you’ve seen a whif of already) from the top down, this can easily be a sign of things to come as you try to settle into a role that you know will be challenging.

              Also be aware that whatever limits they have from the institution in bringing you in and compensating you, you will have as a manager as well.

              1. Dang*

                These are all really, really good points. Thanks so much for helping me think through this.

                The job is in Philadelphia. I’m in northern suburbs of NYC… it wouldn’t be a HUGE move (150 miles maybe) but it would still uproot my life, which is something I just did less than 2 years ago because of crummy life circumstances. Like you said, I am hesitant to give up my safety net for something that could very easily work out. And if this is the way they do hiring and negotiation, it is alarming and concerning. The figure I gave them was higher, like I said, to offset the risk and make it really worth my while to relocate, and honestly by coming back with a lower number… that makes it clear that there are serious constraints I would likely have to deal with as a manager.

                At the very least if a written offer DOES come through, I will request to meet with the PI and other staff and assess from there, but as it stands it doesn’t seem worth a relocation. Which also pains me because a) I love love love the area and b) my temp job is administrative and completely bores me.

    4. AcademicAnon*

      Well it’s wacky but not for academia and especially not for research. I agree with AAM you need more info, but an in person interview with the person who’s offering you a job might not actually help much. See if you can talk to some people who currently work there or who have left. If the person says you can’t talk to anyone, RUN.

  16. Trixie*

    Job search in higher ed stalling at the moment which while expected still disappointing. Good to remember the positive feedback I received and keep pushing ahead. The upside is my PT group fitness job is going gangbuster and I’ve taught 1-2 classes every day for 7-10 days straight. Appreciating all the gains, however small, is so helpful in times like these.

    1. Schuyler*

      What kind of work are you looking for in higher ed? What location(s) are you looking for work in?

      1. Trixie*

        Administrative/professional, but ultimately I’d like to land in Advancement, Development, or Special Events. Mid-Atlantic area, ideally NC.

        Aside from a lot of qualified, more recently employed younger applicants, I imagine I’m either overqualified for entry level jobs and under qualified for positions compared to applicants who have exact experience. Usual story that many experience.

  17. Martha*

    Advice for training a coworker? I am leaving my company, and a girl with no experience in my field is being promoted. I handle payroll / compensation, and she is an administrative coordinator. I’ve trained with her, and all she says is “I’m not at this level” and “I’ve never done this before”. I showed her an excel formula and she told me she’s not an excel expert. She’s terrified of making an error, and wanted to tell the CFO to expect errors (on a $26M budget!). Instead of asking intelligent questions, she emails me 50x’s a day and asks me to confirm if she saved a file in the correct folder, and last week, she had me verify that she did a retro payment correctly. It’s really basic questions – I don’t understand this mentality of focusing on the little stuff when you don’t understand anything about the topic. I told her the sooner she gains confidence and doesn’t let fear drive her decisions, the better off she’ll be. She cried (there were tears) to my manager that I’m awful. My manager told me I need to be gentler with her because she’s intimidated by my expertise and knows she doesn’t have the education …. I only have a week left with training her.

    1. Partly Cloudy*

      It sounds like she’s way too green (experience-wise, maturity-wise, or both) for the job. Who decided to promote her? Can you talk to your manager about your concerns about her ability to do the job?

      1. Martha*

        I talked to my manager this morning. Manager said I need to be gentler with her because she’s too intimidated by me. Intimidated to the point that she won’t walk by my office. I’m not the type to handhold and verify someone’s feelings for being scared, and I’m very straightforward and honest, which doesn’t go over well with this girl. I’m afraid my manager is going to hold this against me and not give me a reference down the road.

        1. fposte*

          “I’m not the type to handhold and verify someone’s feelings for being scared.”

          It’s not about being a type; it’s about being an effective trainer. Right now your training approach isn’t working for her; why not adapt to one that might work better? I know if you’ve got one foot out the door it may seem like an annoying task, but it sounds like it might be a good learning experience for you, and it sounds like you have reasons to want it to go well. So prioritize tactful over straightforward for a couple of weeks.

          1. Martha*

            Blah. Not the response I wanted to hear, but I suppose the one I needed. Its probably better than telling her to go pound salt.

            1. fposte*

              Sorry; I think you’re right that she’s not a good fit, and I’d be annoyed too. But now’s your chance to go out on a cloud of virtue.

          2. Partly Cloudy*

            +1, since you think your manager is going to hold this situation against you. Make the best of it, and if you’re inclined to remain available for questions after your last day, give them your personal email/phone number. That way your manager will see that you’re really trying.

        2. Dawn*

          Document the heck out of every single thing you’ve ever given her, emails sent, instructions, etc. Give it to your manager before you leave- basically a “Mortimer, here’s everything I’ve gone over with Buffy.” Either your manager is smart enough to realize you’ve tried to help this girl as much as possible and the fact she didn’t learn it is on her, or he’s stupid and doesn’t realize this girl cannot be helped.

          Either way, in a week, this is officially Not Your Problem Anymore.

          1. RandomName*

            I agree, document it as much as possible. Though after you leave, I think this person’s shortcomings will be obvious to others. I trained someone for a job I was leaving once and she just didn’t get it. One time, I trained her on how to do a report, and she took notes. The next day I told her to try doing it on her own but while I was sitting with her and so she could see what she still needed help with and ask questions when she got stuck. She gave me a blank stare and then asked how she was supposed to do it because she had no idea what I was talking about. After trying to jog her memory about the report we went over for an hour the day prior, that I saw her writing notes for, she was still adamant that we hadn’t gone over it. I told her to get her notes and after flipping through them she remembered. But there weren’t any other reports I had trained her on at that point, so I was shocked that she couldn’t conjure up the memory of even having the discussion from one day earlier.

            Anyway, that was one of many issues I had training my replacement. After I left I found out from people that she said I didn’t train her on things that I did. But it became obvious to them quickly that she didn’t know what she was doing. In fact, she tried telling my former direct report that I didn’t train her on how to review a certain type of transaction report. I teach by making people do things, and my former direct report was able to find one of the transactions I had my replacement review while I was training her (with me by her side) that had her handwriting on it. It was hard for her to backpedal from that one, but my former direct report said she continued to deny it was her handwriting (even though my direct report could easily distinguish my neat writing in my typical pen color vs. her messy writing in pencil… I never wrote with pencil).

            I think your manager will understand what you’re saying now when you’re gone and it becomes his/her problem.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Wow. Something was going on there. I don’t know what- but that is pretty wild.

              There was really no one to train me at this current job I have. So my boss brought in another person for one day.(It was amazing that she was able to get that for me.) I hung onto every. single. word this person said as if each word was a bar of gold.

              1. jamlady*

                SO true. I underwent a crash course of on-the-job training for software at a previous position and the woman who trained me was SO stressed with another employee because she taught me everything I needed to know in 3 weeks and she’d been working with the other employee for 11 months with no success. This person was a teacher in a related industry for 10 years and she was incredible. I feel like other people either don’t try or they’re simply not cut out for that kind of work. If you don’t care or try, boo on you, you suck. But if you try, it’s so hard to deal with – you’re not a bad employee, you just aren’t cut out for the work! And you can’t possibly be happy struggling so terribly while everyone moves up around you.

          2. it happens*

            ^^ This X1000. Though I’d approach it less from a CYA perspective and more from a process documentation perspective. Worst case, buffy doesn’t get it and in a month they hire someone new, who can use your guide to figure out ‘how it’s done here.’
            But also helpful to modify the approach a little for the last week. Maybe sit down Monday morning with a ‘well, buffy, this is our last week together, what do you think we need to do to together to get you comfortable with flying solo next Monday?’
            good luck

    2. MaryMary*

      I second telling your manager this coworker is not a good fit to take over for you. If she’s not confident with basic excel skills and saving files she really shouldn’t be handling payroll. Few things make employees angrier than screwing up their paychecks. Working in areas like payroll, accounting, HR also means you need to be comfortable with a high level of responsibility. Errors are a big deal.

      I’d also create some sort of training document. 1) To put in writing what you’ve trained your coworker on, 2) to give her something to refer back to (hopefully saving you the 50 emails), and 3) so whoever ends up taking over from her has something to reference.

      1. Martha*

        Thanks. I’ve done a great deal of documentation (which she has told me she doesn’t have time to read), so maybe I’ll make it more granular. Then I can at least say its there. Written is easier than verbal for me anyways.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          “I dont’ have time to read my training material” does not bode well for the future, but if you’ve documented and done all you can, then that’s all you can do. Soon enough, it will be your manager’s problem.

          1. dd*

            +1

            I was going to say the same. I don’t know why they would trust someone with no experience to handle a $26M budget. I feel sorry for the girl. They are putting her in a very difficult position.

            1. Martha*

              Agreed! I can’t fathom saying “be prepared guys, I’m going to screw this up”. If that’s your thought process, don’t take the job! And the fact that my manager supports her because “she’s never done this before”. I get that she’s never done the job before, but the approach has to be “I’m going to learn how to do this job correctly, so there aren’t errors”.

              1. MsM*

                Maybe you could ask the manager if he’d rather you focus on teaching her Excel basics, and document the other stuff for once she’s gotten that foundation? Because you do understand it’s overwhelming, but given her inexperience, there’s only so much you can cover.

              2. jamlady*

                Ahh seriously! Sure, people make mistakes, but I never go into ANYTHING I do with the mentality of “I’m probably going to mess up”. I don’t even consider the option. People get divorced too but you don’t go into a marriage saying “We’re probably going to separate”. It just shouldn’t be an option with regards to expectations.

              1. blackcat*

                Seriously. I have mostly dealt with awesome payroll people, and the are worth their weight in gold. The one time I dealt with someone who didn’t know REALLY fundamental stuff (marital status needs to be on a W2 since it impacts withholdings), it was so, so terrible. What I know about payroll comes from having been an employee and getting paid. I should not know more than a payroll person!

                I’d say having payroll handled correctly is the #1 responsibility of an employer.

          2. Dot Warner*

            She doesn’t have time to read her training material?? I was feeling sorry for her up until you mentioned that. If I were in your shoes I’d tell her that if she doesn’t find time to read the material, she might find herself with 40 more free hours each week…

        2. A. D. Kay*

          She actually had the NERVE to tell you she didn’t have time to read the documentation you wrote specifically to train her?! I’m just… I’m just… I can’t even.

    3. PuppyPetter*

      Sounds like my situation. Several people (including me) are leaving my company, not all by choice (layoffs). we are all trying to teach newbies from other fields how to do FT jobs where we’ve had 5+ years experience, how to do them on a PT basis.
      One of the people I’m training just.doesn’t.get it.

      Keep repeating “Not my circus, not my monkeys”
      (and document the hell out of everything you’ve shown her!)

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Serious advice: With every question she asks, you ask her,”What have you tried so far?” Carry the expectation that she will try before she asks.

    5. MsChanandlerBong*

      I don’t have any advice for you, but I wanted to say I admire you for trying to help her as much as possible. At one point, I was hired to be an HR assistant; I was supposed to do new hire paperwork, make employee ID badges, and do other clerical tasks. I was getting paid an hourly rate commensurate with that level of responsibility ($11.25). When I came on board, I actually ended up being the only HR person in the facility. They had me doing payroll for 250 employees across five separate business units, OSHA compliance, hiring/terminations, etc. I was in WAY over my head (and not getting paid nearly enough), and I ended up getting fired. All this to say, I am curious as to whether your employer made it clear to her what the job would entail.

  18. Sandy*

    Applied for Job A back in the fall, they are just doing interviews now. I meet about 120% of the qualifications. It’s definitely a lateral move.

    Job B was advertised last week and I meet about 90% of the qualifications (all of the mandatory and most of the assets). Inspired by previous discussion on AAM about not waiting until I meet absolutely 100% of the qualifications, I’m putting together an application now.

    Turns out Job B is to be Job A’s supervisor. All the HR, interviewing, etc. is going to be handled by the same team.

    Is this going to look weird? Other than being prepared for it to be raised in an interview, is there any particular way I should try and navigate this?

    1. OhNo*

      Can you mention it in the cover letter? Like, “I recently applied for Job A, but feel that I am ready professionally to move up to Job B and take on additional duties X, Y, and Z.” And make sure to stress in the interview that you would be 100% comfortable in either role (assuming that’s true), regardless of who is placed in the other one.

    2. Beancounter in Texas*

      You could also say in your cover letter that you applied for Job A because it’s a good lateral move, but now that Job B is opened up, you’d like to be considered for that role because you’re more interested in expanding your responsibilities.

    3. Lizard*

      I would probably acknowledge that you applied to the other job in your cover letter but say that now that there’s an additional opening, you’d like to be considered for that one as well. You feel that you’re qualified because blah blah, and you’re very interested in the company. Since Job A was advertised so much earlier I don’ t think it’s weird at all.

    4. little Cindy Lou who*

      If someone’s reached out to you regarding an interview for A, I’d let her/him know that you’d be interested in B also, instead of outright applying twice.

  19. Lisa*

    I want to start applying for jobs overseas. Anyone know of a service that converts resumes into CVs?

    1. Lee*

      CVs and resumes are largely the same (I am British), I would just google templates and go from there. Chances are a service will knock the formatting out in any case so you’re better doing it manually.

      Sorry I know that’s not particularly helpful but I think it will be an easier job than you’re imagining!

      1. Lisa*

        I am curious – what is the latest CV format for the UK? What kind of CV sections would be off-putting? Which ones are a must? Things like activities, clubs, awards from so long ago seem very odd to me as an American.

        Unfortunately, they are requesting CVs specifically not resumes so trying to use something relevant for the marketing industry seen today vs. an outdated template from Google.

        1. Merry and Bright*

          The only personal information I have on my CV are my email address, mobile phone number and nationality (British – to establish right to work in the UK). Apart from that, it’s my employment and work achievements plus qualifications. There is different advice around on including hobbies etc. It does take up room but some people like to briefly state interest that shows useful qualities such as sports team membership or leadership skills. But including extra information like this is by no means compulsory. Basically, I only list things on my that are directly relevant. If they want to know how I spend my weekends they can ask me at the interview.

          Oh, and I also include the software packages I know (since I got pulled up for leaving these off).

          On qualifications, a lot advice says that if you have a degree(s) there is less need to include GCSEs/O Levels yet some job ads specify these no matter what but that is lazy ad writing on the whole.

          On balance, keeping your CV/resume similar to your current format should be fine especially if you keep to Alison’s advice and it is clear and easy to follow.

          Word to the wise: leave off your date of birth. This is now a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

          As ever, you can always get a joker in the pack when it comes to recruiters and CVs but I hope this helps a bit.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      I have used the Global CV & Resume Guide (country by country information, with helpful examples). Not sure if the latest edition is out, and of course, YMMV whether you find this kind of thing helpful in doing your own conversion. Assuming you’re American, the biggest adjustment is going to be thinking about putting more personal information on your CV, depending on the country in question. I’ve seen birthdates, marital status, # of children (and their ages!), and school records going all the way back to kindergarten.

      1. Mander*

        I’m an American in the UK and I generally do my CV the same way I would have done a resume in the US. Though I been able to get a job in the last, oh, 3-4 years that I’ve been looking, so my opinion may be pants. But I don’t think it is that common here anymore to put the personal info on, although it’s not unusual to put GCSEs and A-levels depending on how old you are and what other qualifications you have. My husband, for instance, still includes his and he is 35 and has a BS, but his A-levels were all in things that are still relevant for his current job.

        I sometimes include my nationality as a way to make it clear that I am a British citizen and don’t need a work visa, since it’s obvious that I’m a foreigner because of my education and job history. Depending on the job I might clarify that my high school and college education in the USA included core subjects outside my actual discipline of Anthropology (e.g. hard sciences, statistics, languages, history, English composition) since GCSEs in maths and English are often listed as essential requirements for a job. This is better in a cover letter but sometimes they just want a CV so I might put a line that explains this in the education section.

          1. Cristina in England*

            I struggled to get my first job in the UK. I ultimately got a temp job, then after that it seemed my Americanness was an asset, not an albatross, in getting subsequent jobs.

    4. Cristina in England*

      If you’re an American applying overseas, it’s your cover letter that I would focus on. American confidence and optimism can really grate sometimes with overseas employers. In Britain, it can be wiser to tone that down and be more humble when describing your skills and experience. Never use hyperbole or superlatives.
      If you are in academia then there are huge differences in your CV US v UK, but everywhere else, the resume/cv can be pretty much the same format, just follow the advice on this site.

    5. Short and Stout*

      Also in the UK. I don’t see that there is any difference between a US resume and a good UK CV.

      I follow all of Alison’s advice and generally find it translates perfectly.

      One good piece of advice I did see was to make sure a foreign reader would understand your education listings, e.g. don’t just say you got a 3.8 gpa but say 3.8 / 4.0 for context, etc.

  20. Lee*

    I joined my currently company at the end of September 2014, and it was great for the first week – very busy, lots of strategic thinking (I’m in Marketing/Comms) and lots of space for me to make the role my own as it was newly created. Fast forward to now, and there is no work for me to do. No content or marketing projects to work on, and of course I’ve thought about how I can create them but there really isn’t scope for that. We’re a small company and I’ve realised the boss didn’t really know what he wanted when he hired me, and could have used a few hours of time with a marketing consultant and not hired a permanent full timer.

    I am looking for a new role, but in the meantime I don’t know what to do. I’ve asked my boss ‘is there anything I can help with/feel free to offload any work to my desk!’ and it just hasn’t happened. He’s often out of the office for weeks at a time with no work left to do. I really am a self starter and try to attend events to build relationships, and work on whatever I can but this amounts to about an hour a day on average. I can’t ask co-workers if they want help as their roles are so different for mine (coders etc).

    Quitting without anything to go to isn’t an option as I have a mortgage to pay, but this is really frustrating as I used to be so busy in my previous role (I left as I relocated to another city). I’m not developing and I’m at a critical time in my career. Any suggestions very gratefully received!

    1. LMW*

      You have two options: Stay with this job and find a way to make it work or find a new job.

      Are you the only marketing/comms person? How extensive is the marketing program? Can you try to make it bigger — either thinking long term or expanding the scope? Can you try new initiatives?

      I’m having a hard time picturing a marketing or comms program where there’s nothing to be done…especially from a content perspective, since content is a beast you must feed constantly. But I don’t have all the details here. To me it sounds like you might have a great opportunity: Time to figure out how to initiate projects that would encourage your own professional development. If you could work on anything you wanted to, what would you do?

      1. Lee*

        Hi LMW,

        Thanks for your reply. I’m completely with you – I cannot imagine a marketing or comms department with nothing to do. I am a self starter and have previously worked in lone roles where I have found plenty to do. I think what I’m trying to say is that I’m not just waiting on orders from above, I am trying to find things to do. I have developed strategies and started to implement them but it’s really only enough to fill an hour of the day.

        Many of our projects are confidential or really specific projects so that only those interested in that niche subject would be interested, which makes it hard as I feel as though the company doesn’t really need a marketing/comms person. I come from a B2C background, perhaps this is my chance to really focus on the B2B side of things and develop my role in that way.

        Thanks again for your reply,

        Lee

    2. Dawn*

      If you seriously CANNOT come up with a single thing to do, then just look at this as an unexpected lull in things and be grateful that you have time to be bored (because I am finding that’s a luxury once adulthood happens!) Could you job hunt while you’re at work?Kill two birds with one stone?

      1. Lee*

        Hi Dawn,

        Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I don’t see this as an unexpected lull (although I would have killed for one of those in my previous place – how times change!). I think it’s time to get serious job hunting, but would feel a little guilty doing this on work time. I can definitely maximise job hunting time by doing this on my lunch break though! Lee

    3. AcademicAnon*

      While you might not be able to help your coworkers with their work (but ask first you might be surprised!) ask if there is something you can do for the company to improve things. You might get some interesting answers that might give you ideas.

      1. Lee*

        AcademicAnon – thanks, I may just do that – am possibly being a bit pessimistic and demotivated but as you say, I could well be surprised and might even learn something new! Lee

    4. Sunflower*

      Are you in a slow period right now? Decide if you’re okay not having much to do. If not, have you looked to any long standing problems the company has had? Getting creative while trying to fix long standing issues can eat up a lot of your day

      1. Lee*

        Hi Sunflower – I don’t think we are in a slow period now, I hoped it was just because it was Christmas/January/the boss was away but it slowly emerged that this is just the pace the company works at. I keep asking my boss to offload any work on me but he’s very particular and think he prefers to just do things himself as that’s the way he likes it. But yes I think you’re right – if I try, I might find that there is lots to do and hopefully in the meantime I can find something else!

  21. Anonymous this time around*

    Any advice on what to do when your manager is giving you advice and “help” that seem well-intentioned but you don’t believe to be actually useful?

    I’ve had a contentious relationship with my manager historically–we’re really different people, I’ll leave it at that–but we’ve found our way to a pretty harmonious working existence these days, for which I’m immensely grateful.

    She knows I want to move on to a different role and is supportive–she says I will leave a big gap on our team in terms of skill and experience, but I’ve been in the role for three years, and it’s pretty typical for people to change roles here every couple of years, particularly early in their tenure. I’ve been here eight years and have had three roles, so I am past due for a move.

    I want to stay on her good side, and it feels like in order to do that, I should continue treating her advice and help like a valued commodity. But the fact is that her understanding of our company’s power structures and culture aren’t as good as mine, and her advice has seemed painfully naive in the past. She’s encouraged me to pursue roles I know I have no shot at, and she’s written letters of support (which she’s let me read) that are flattering but paint me as someone I find unrecognizable. And I haven’t gotten the jobs she’s “helped” me pursue, which isn’t definitive in any way, but it’s a data point I can’t help but notice.

    I have to notify her when I apply for new internal roles. In the past, when I’ve put in applications and sent her an FYI email, she’s taken me aside and asked why I didn’t tell her sooner so she could help me with my application. What’s a polite way to tell her, “Look, I’ve got this. All you need to do is say nice and true things about me if they call you for a reference. Until then, please butt out”?

    1. some1*

      “Thanks for the concern/suggestion/whatever, Jane; but I feel like I did a great job with my app materials. I’m glad to know your assistantance is there if I need in the future.”

    2. Observer*

      I’d probably go with “I really appreciate your help. I hate taking your time with this, so I’ve just been incorporating all of your advice as needed. This way you only have to take time if someone thinks I might be a fit for and they need to talk to you. But, really, thanks!”

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Yeah, this is a good way to approach it — make it sound like you’re not intentionally omitting her, but instead doing her a favor.

        1. jamlady*

          I personally dislike that the OP even has to do this much. Obviously she’s capable after 8 years and 3 upward moves, a sentiment her manager has expressed, but then her manager turns around and treats her like she’s not. I don’t know her personality, and it could all be well-intended, but it’s kind of offensive.

          Also, the whole thing about your manager painting you out as someone you’re not in letters is really not good, for you or for your next employer. My current situation really requires a certain personality – it’s something previous employers were quick to notice and even quicker to name in performance reviews because of where I’m headed. This is vital for me. I don’t know if it’s as vital in your industry, but it’s still important. If she’s painting you out as someone else, you may not get the jobs you want and may instead be picked up for jobs you’re not built for. That’s just bad for everyone. Again, it may have good intentions (maybe she sees someone with that personality type more desirable or something), but I recommend talking to her about that also. Given her personality, you probably have to do the whole walking-on-eggshells thing as previously suggested, but it still needs to be said.

          1. Anonymous this time around*

            In my company, since people do move around so much, it’s not at all uncommon for a manager to advocate for one of her direct reports. That part isn’t weird at all. Which is why this is clumsy: I’m essentially asking her not to do something that many, many managers do.

            I’m not especially worried about my next employer, as the only moves I’m considering are internal. I’m well-networked, I understand the hierarchy here, and I’m really choosy about the roles I consider.

            I hadn’t thought about this until right now, but I think she just looks at the job description and looks at my skills and thinks “hey, there’s a match.” Whereas I know the culture of the different departments and know in which ones I’d be a fit only on paper. I also know which things I’m good at but hate, but I try not to talk about those things at work. I don’t want to be a complainer. So she oversells, say, my html skills, because she doesn’t know that I can’t code without a cheat sheet and that I’ll never be confident at it or want it to be a major part of my role. She’s just describing what she sees.

            Maybe what we need is an honest conversation about what I’m looking for in a new role.

            1. little Cindy Lou who*

              So I can’t help but point out that while it’s great to know yourself, your strengths and weaknesses, what you like to do, and the culture you like to work within, it seems like you’re not only being picky on these points but unwilling to even consider what benefits could be gained by stepping a bit outside your comfort zone.

              Eg the html coding, because coding is something I can relate to. I reference my own cheat sheets and actuasl vendor documentation probably at least once a day because I’m looking for the best way to code out how to make a report do x or improve y. I live by the mantra never seek to memorize that which you can look up.

              You don’t have to “know” every last detail inside and out to be good/skilled at something (recognizing the scale from newbie to master). Understanding the concept is much more important than each specific detail in more places than a lot of people realize, particularly sensory-oriented people. So when you say your manager oversells your skills or paints a different picture of you, maybe you need to check your expectations/perception of yourself vs what other people see in you as potential or strengths?

              1. Anonymous this time around*

                It’s a fair point you make, but I’m not gonna lie, I’ve spent the past three-plus years way outside my comfort zone and I’m tired of it. I came into the role with what I thought were solid credentials, but the job proved to be so, so much more complex than expected. Literally the first week in this job, I knew I’d made a mistake. It took a solid year to feel like I was anything approaching competent.

                I’d like my next role to play to my strengths a bit more. I’d like to find something where the functions of the role aren’t in such constant flux, and where I can gain mastery of the main skills of the job and spend the bulk of my time excelling at the job rather than struggling to level up to yet another new set of expectations. I’m all for always learning, but always learning just to stay afloat has been exhausting.

                To cite an example, the html thing. I came into the role as a subject matter expert copywriter. I didn’t know a lick of html, nor did my peers. Then one day our manager decided that we needed to incorporate a design element into our content that wouldn’t work in our WYSIWYG pane, so we needed to begin composing in html. The decree was “start writing articles in html today.” No formal training, no shifting our workload to allow learning to occur. Just do it. Figure it out. Thank God for Codecademy and cheat sheets! I am now adequate at html, but I do not want someone to see that on my resume and think, “Sweet! She can write our website for us.” Because, nope, not unless I take some actual classes to gain some actual confidence.

                Sorry this has become sort of a vent/rant. I’m just tired of working so hard to be barely adequate. There are things I’m excellent at, and I’d like a job that leverages those things.

                1. little Cindy Lou who*

                  That’s good context that I didn’t pick up on in the original note, so I can totally empathize on wanting something more sane and stable in what your manager expects of you and your team. Best of luck in your search! :)

  22. AnonForThis*

    (Part 1 or 2) My boyfriend was laid off last week and he’s going through a quarter-life crisis.
    Right now he’s overwhelmed by options – He’s torn between going back to school and changing careers, or just applying to more jobs like he’s had, which he liked but never loved.

    How do you help someone struggling with a big decision like this?
    Any other tips for helping a significant other with unemployment? His biggest complaint right now is being bored and lonely during the day. Has speaking with a therapist or councilor helped others in this situation?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I’m struggling with this but am still employed. I want to maybe go back to school and change careers or maybe just leave the job I have and find something similar. I’m not sure how to figure it out or help a person besides just being generally supportive!

    2. Rex*

      1. Encourage him to do something that gets him out of the house on a regular basis — hobby, volunteering, whatever. Ideally something not job search related.

      2. Encourage him to stay in touch with and up to date in his current field, in case he wants to go back. This might include lunch/coffee with former colleagues he’s on good terms with.

      3. He can start researching these other fields before making a plunge. Alison has some good stuff on informational interviews in the archives. I think it’s easy to idealize jobs when you don’t know much about him. Encourage him to be really honest with himself about his strengths and weaknesses.

      1. Lizzie*

        #1 all the way. When my boyfriend was unemployed for a good chunk of time, I instituted a rule that he had to leave the house once a day – it didn’t matter if it was to do chores (grocery store, laundromat, etc.), to scout out “Help Wanted” signs at local businesses (yeah, it got to that point), to go for a run, to meet up with friends for lunch or coffee, he just had to put pants and go somewhere.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Going back to school should be the first thing he takes off the table unless it’s something he has already been planning to do. It’s not a good idea to go back if the only reason is that he doesn’t know what else to do. And if he’s bored and lonely he probably isn’t spending enough time job-searching. Working out would probably help his mood a lot (and kill an hour of his boring day).

        1. CheeryO*

          Thirded. My boyfriend went back to school as a stop-gap after quitting his first job, and he ended up having to drop out, which REALLY set him back.

      2. Mt. Wanna-hock-a-loogie*

        As someone who is in the exact same position as her boyfriend, please do not say that bored and lonely = not spending enough time job-searching.

        2. Lily in NYC*

          I didn’t mean it in a scolding manner. I’ve been laid off twice and handled it differently each time. It was much better for my mental health when I treated my job search like a full-time job in itself because I didn’t have time to sit and stew and I felt like I was accomplishing something.

      3. BRR*

        All of this. Also maybe volunteering somewhere.Going back to school is not the solution it once was.

    4. Artemesia*

      As the SO it is IMHO imperative to not own this. The biggest support you can be is to step back and let him be a grownup. The worst thing to do is to be his mother. When my husband went through this process, I tried to be a good listener, to respond to requests for feedback on things like the resume WHEN HE ASKED ME TO, and to give him lots of attaboys. I didn’t look for opportunities for him, nag him to do this or that, suggest new strategies for his job search etc etc.

      It is easy to be very nervous in this situation and overstep. Adults don’t like to be micromanaged by their partners and you always risk getting into a passive aggressive spiral. Sometimes it is crazy hard to just bite your tongue and let him wrestle with these decisions himself but it is really important for the future of your relationship.

      1. AnonForThis*

        There’s no “right” way to deal with this, but he’s handling this very differently than I would, and you’ve summarized what I’m trying very hard to do (or not do)!

    5. Beancounter in Texas*

      Find some career counseling, either DIY like “What Color is Your Parachute?”, a Myers-Briggs test or perhaps some paid guidance, if you feel it’ll be worth it. If it’s going to take some time, get a job he likes and plan a career change in his free time. Lily in NYC has a good suggestion for working out – physical activity will help all around.

      My hubby is currently in a similar boat and I encourage him not to settle for something unless he intends it to be a stop-gap. I really encourage him to pursue a job that will make him happy. I think this helps him not see me as pressure to start bringing in a paycheck (as we’re not to the end of our savings yet). Also, to help him get into the job hunting mode, he goes to Starbucks every day and uses their WiFi on his laptop to work. He buys a hot tea and can really focus on his work there, unlike at home. Perhaps your SO can find “an office,” a place where he focuses on job hunting/career planning.

    6. Mt. Wanna-hock-a-loogie*

      A therapist helped me in the same position. If nothing else, it gives yourself an outsider to rant speak with for an unbiased position. In my case, I also found out I was suffering with depression and once set up with medication, made my search a lot easier.

      Keep in mind though, some people don’t react well to being told to see a therapist. It can be overwhelming to realize you need that sort of help so tread lightly!

    7. Sunflower*

      Before he takes the plunge on going back to school, I would suggest he volunteer with some organizations related to what he wants to go back to school for.

      Whether it’s volunteering or working, finding something that will get him out of the house is a really good idea.

      I’ve read some of Christine Hassler’s stuff. She specializes in quarter life crises. I think she makes ‘figuring your life out’ easier than it is but it’s helpful to know other people are going through the same thing. 20 Something Manifesto is just a collection of people who went through everything. 20 something, 20 everything is more a guide book. I will warn you, it’s LONG. It’s geared towards women but there are tons of exercises that could work for men too.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      When a friend of mine suddenly got laid off he started going to the Y every day to exercise. He did that first thing in the morning. It seemed to really help him keep his attitude up. Maybe your bf can take a walk, ride his bike if he has one or have a morning run.
      My friend said it made him feel like he had accomplished something right away, each day.

    9. Dang*

      I was unemployed for almost a year following the crappiest year of my life (personal, not professional). I started seeing a therapist during that time because I was obsessing over things I knew didn’t matter because I had nothing else to focus my mind/energy on. Really, how many jobs can you really apply for per day before it all looks the same? And it doesn’t even really take up that much time if you’re only applying for ones you’re really interested in. So anyway, yeah. Talking to a therapist really helped- an outside person to say “yeah, wow, that really DOES suck and it’s not just your imagination” helps, especially if he’s the type of person who tries to talk himself out of his own emotions (like I am).

      If at all possible, can he change careers and go back to school later? Unless he’s very sure what he wants to do and that another degree will lead to that, going back to school is something I would never really recommend, mostly because I did it and never did anything with the degree I thought would open so many doors. Now I see that it was extremely interdisciplinary and not specific enough to actually provide me with a clear career path. This wouldn’t be the same in say, accounting or whatever, but if he’s not sure, I wouldn’t encourage it.

    10. EG*

      Volunteering or temp work would be a great way to try a different field, if he has transferable skills.

      1. Lady Bug*

        Be careful about volunteering if he is receiving unemployment benefits. I asked if volunteering would affect my benefits, and was told “it might.” It’s ridiculous, but is a possibility.

    11. OriginalEmma*

      Perhaps he can go to the local library, or somewhere with free wi-fi and low-cost drinks, to do his job searching and industry education maintenance. That way he doesn’t feel cooped up all day, despite the fact that he may very well be doing the same activity at the library as at home.

  23. AnonForThis*

    (Part 2 or 2) As I mentioned up-thread, my boyfriend was laid off last week. For the past year (while employed) he’s been vaguely interested in changing fields; he’s a graphic designer by trade and is toying with the idea of taking a 6-12 week intensive course in coding, website design and/or programming.

    Has anyone made a similar career change (graphics to web design) or something similar? What was your experience?
    Does anyone have recommendations for programming/coding schools in NYC? There are so many, and we’re overwhelmed by the options

    1. Artemesia*

      I think Dev Bootcamp has a program in New York. It is a high pressure fairly short program — I think it is 9 weeks — The person I know who did it, did it in the Chicago program and went from an underpaid and frustrated chef who was scraping by with no benefits to a solid full time with benefits job. She is totally thrilled with how well it worked for her.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        I do NOT need another project, but I got just a taste of coding in the web design class I took last fall (it was mostly focused on the front end/pretty part) and enjoyed it, and this looks really interesting.

    3. it happens*

      A friend of mine did this last year – very successfully. Did the web development course at General Assembly (but had already done a few part-time coding courses before that) and has been getting decent gigs based on it. Another friend did GA’s night-time UX course just because he thought it would be useful to his work. I suggest starting with a free course on coding through coursera or udacity, then trying a part-time class or weekend intensive at GA or the equivalent before committing to the full-time course. Make sure really likes the work itself and not just the idea.

      1. Amanda*

        Seconding GA! My S/O did the UX course as well, and it was wonderful. He met a lot of really supportive people.

    4. Dynamic Beige*

      If he’s interested in learning how to make websites, his graphic design experience will be an asset to that but, if he’s not sure he will be interested enough in coding to stick with it, there are free things he can do online to assess whether it’s something he wants to keep pursuing http://www.codecademy.com/ I mean, why spend a bunch of money on a boot camp or books or a crash course if half way through you decide “nope, not for me”? I’d say start with Code Academy and if he can get through the HTML & CSS (approx time 7 hours, beginner level), then he’ll have a place to go from there. From my perspective, it seems that most of the people I know who do websites either mainly do the programming or mainly do the design work, I don’t think I know anyone who is both a strong designer and a strong programmer.

      Also, the advice about What Colour is Your Parachute — that may help him assess what he wants. As other have said, going back to school just to go back to school is no answer.

      1. C Average*

        I love Codecademy SO much. It’s free, it’s amazing, and it’s where anyone remotely interested in this stuff should start. When I had to learn html in a hurry for my job, it saved my bacon.

    5. HAnon*

      If he’s thinking about transitioning to digital design, I would encourage him to find a “niche” — like apps, or web development, or ux designer, or something else very specific. That’s what I’m trying to do (starting a responsive web design class soon). If you know a little bit of practically everything, you become jack of all trades and master of none, as they say. It’s a pretty natural transition, and the design background will greatly benefit his work in development.

    6. voluptuousfire*

      If you google “coding bootcamps nyc” there’s a link (second link on the first page) that has reviews of all the different coding bootcamp companies. The Flatiron School I think has a “if you don’t get a job, your course is free” option. I think. I’m too tired to google it.

      I’m thinking about checking out one of those options myself. I keep having interviews that don’t really go anywhere and I really need to consider some sort of training outside of what I have.

  24. Snow Related Lateness*

    I’m a non-exempt employee living in Boston who depends on public transportation to get to work. The last month has been rough. I’m normally a very punctual person but have been getting to work up to an hour late some days (and leaving my home at the same time or earlier than usual).

    At first when snow caused delays or even prevented me from getting in to the office, my employers were understanding. But it’s been several weeks since the last major snowstorm and public transportation is still not back on track, causing me to continue to come in late. The people who call the shots drive to work, and they don’t seem to grasp how completely crippled public transportation is and has been.

    So, who should take the hit for lost time? My view is that I’m late getting in to work but I’m also getting home late from work, so it basically comes up as an even loss for both employer and employee. Early on in this debacle, I asked my manager what his expectations were, but he never answered me and I can see that patience is growing thinner.

    Fingers crossed we won’t be getting any more snow this year, but I’m curious what others’ takes are on this.

    1. TCO*

      Your responsibility is to do your job in full. That’s what your employer is paying you to do. Your transportation challenges (though I sympathize) are not your employer’s problem. If you’re expected to work 40 hours, you need to work 40 hours regardless of how that affects your personal life.

      1. Snow Related Lateness*

        In theory I agree, but my office is NOT a ‘punch-in’ type of environment. I’ve been with them for three winters and snow delays are understood and accepted. No one’s going to be on your back about coming in 15-30 minutes late when we’re dealing with a dangerous mess.

        However, this year has been extraordinary and we’re all making it up as we go. As soon as the MBTA announced that they’d still be dealing with delays well into March I checked in as to what the expectations were, but never got a response.

        1. Artemesia*

          I would be leaving an hour earlier to get to work etc etc i.e. doing everything in your power to put in your time. Even arriving a few days quite early telegraphs a level of commitment that should quiet concerns of your manager. Is s/he getting there on time and putting the time in?

          1. Snow Related Lateness*

            Are my managers arriving on time (or even at all)? No, but they are exempt and in many cases able to work from home.

      2. Kelly L.*

        I genuinely think Boston this year is kind of a weird case, though. Whole swaths of town are completely out of commission, from what I’ve read. Snow Related Lateness probably wouldn’t have been able to get out of her neighborhood with a car/taxi, either. It’s sort of apocalyptic.

        1. Snow Related Lateness*

          ^^^ Yup.

          Except, this kind of thing impacts poor and middle class people so much harder. Where the roads were at least passable within a day or two after each storm, the MBTA was consistently just a sad sorry mess. People earning higher wages could maybe justify driving and spending $30+ a day on parking whereas that’s a sizeable chunk of my paycheck at the end of the week.

          I know, the law doesn’t care about social justice. The law says I’m an hourly employee and if I’m not there for my full hours I shouldn’t get paid for them. Just saying.

          1. IndieGir*

            Is there some reason preventing you from taking an earlier train? (ie, childcare issues?) I’m in the same situation and have shifted to the early train which is more reliable. While it sucks to have to get up earlier, lots of people are doing it and perhaps you’d be able to leave earlier as well.

            1. Snow Related Lateness*

              Childcare is a factor, but the main thing preventing me was that the commuter rail pared down to just two morning trains: 6:30am and 8:45am. That’s it.

              1. IndieGir*

                Mine is down to 6:10 and 7:24. Have you tried the 6:30, or does that screw up your childcare?

                1. Snow Related Lateness*

                  It would screw up childcare, but also I’m in a support role so showing up at the office when no one is there is a moot point.

          2. Observer*

            MBTA has a bit of a reputation, even outside of Boston for this reason.

            And, transit systems like this are a significant reason it’s so hard to “wean” people off their individual cars, even when it would make theoretical financial sense.

            And that’s why, in my opinion, this kind of nonsense tends to happen more in areas with lower income populations – People with a bit more income can make the choice to spend more on having a working car so they are not stuck being dependent on mass transit, while lower income people often can’t. And the people who run the transit system know that without ridership they risk their jobs, so they tend to try to retain riders who have choices, and ignore the riders who don’t.

            It stinks.

            But, your employers really can’t be expected to bear that cost.

            1. Snow Related Lateness*

              I actually do own a car but I’m still not willing to pay for parking in downtown Boston. It does suck all around. :-/

              1. Case of the Mondays*

                Any chance your employer could help w/ parking in the interim? “I’m not willing to pay” and “I can’t pay” are two very different things. I really think your employer should be more sympathetic but there is no legal requirement there. If you risk losing your job you have to whatever you can to get in on time.

                1. Ann Furthermore*

                  I had this same thought as I was reading through the comments. You said that it would continue to be screwed up into March, so that would be a few more weeks. If parking is $30 a day, that would be $600 if things are still hosed up for 4 more weeks. Not a huge amount of money (from the perspective of most employers).

                2. Snow Related Lateness*

                  $600 is just short of a week’s worth of my take-home pay. Nope, not spending that on parking.

                3. Ann Furthermore*

                  I meant that maybe your employer could help you out with the cost of parking in the short-term until things are back on track. $600 for them probably not near as big a deal for them as it would be for you or me (or any other individual).

              2. Ihmmy*

                I’m not familiar with the mass trans. there, but are there lots closer by that you could park and then use transit for the rest of the journey to save on time? I have family in Calgary who drive to a park n’ ride location, then take the light rail train to the city centre (where parking is insanely expensive if you’re even lucky enough to find a spot).

                Unfortunately it is your responsibility to be there for teh hours you need, or get confirmation from your boss that it’s ok to miss the few hours in this time of ridiculous transit issues. Is there perhaps a project you could work on from home on evenings/weekends to make up for some of the lost hours?

              3. EmilyG*

                I really sympathize with you, because I’ve worked at places that would be more flexible than this and would be more flexible myself, but the fact that you own a car seems significant here. The cost of having to pay for parking seems like something they could reasonably expect you to carry, even if it sucks–same as if you had to pay more than planned for heating during a cold winter. If it’s a matter of being not *able* to pay for parking rather than not *willing*, could you ask them for some help with that cost?

          3. Case of the Mondays*

            If all of the MBTA users magically found cars and money to pay for parking there would still be a disaster because the roads cannot accommodate that many more cars and there would be nowhere to park them all! I truly sympathize. On another blog I read, a commenter is walking 6 miles to work every day because it is quicker than waiting for the MBTA. But, the sidewalks aren’t plowed so she is basically risking her life.

          4. Anonsie*

            Except, this kind of thing impacts poor and middle class people so much harder.

            Ugh, this is the rub, isn’t it? When we have inclement weather (which isn’t even approaching what’s going on in Boston even under our worst circumstances) our transit system re-routes immediately and cancels large swaths of service very easily. Our building is in a very, very expensive area and many of the higher ups own homes nearby in addition to having vehicles and on-site parking privileges. The lower your income, though, the farther away from there you have to live, and the more coordination different lines/modes of public transit you need. We also don’t get parking on site, so even if you had a vehicle there would be nowhere to put it.

            That said, we do have a policy where major transportation disruptions get us a 2 hour per day window. Basically, you have two hours you can clock (if you’re hourly, if not then it’s just a grace period) but actually take arriving late/leaving early as needed. I have yet to see this actually implemented, though, because a small amount of ice causing transit reroutes isn’t enough for it to kick in. There has to be an actual shut down, I suppose, but if I were in Boston we would probably be meeting those criteria at this point.

      3. AdAgencyChick*

        I disagree. A company that’s located in a city where a large percentage of workers depend on public transportation certainly *can* insist that everybody give 100% regardless of what the transportation situation is…but those that do so should expect that once the snow melts, the best employees will think about moving somewhere that’s more willing to share the burden.

        NYC has not had it nearly as bad as Boston but both this year and last year, winter has definitely eaten into productivity. My employer has been good about this by being flexible about allowing work-from-home arrangements and closing the office early on days like yesterday when the commute was expected to be especially treacherous. Could they have insisted that all employees work as though there were no weather issues? Sure. Did they reap a lot of goodwill by not doing so? Yes.

        Of course, it does matter whether or not your physical presence at the office is necessary to do your job well. But even if it is, I would argue that there’s a business case for trying to share the burden between employees and employer in some way (say, having lighter coverage in mornings and early evenings, and allowing employees to rotate who has to start commuting extra early or end extra late). If there’s a vibe of “we’re all in this together,” then employees who have other options aren’t going to be as inclined to take those other options.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          (that being said — I missed the part about OP being nonexempt. I wouldn’t expect an employer to pay for hours not worked, although I think it would be a kindness to allow and pay for work from home wherever possible.)

    2. fposte*

      I agree with TCO, I’m afraid. Whether it should be true or not, pay is for hours worked, not hours away from home, so the fact that it takes you longer to get home late isn’t something most workplaces are going to factor into their payroll.

    3. Nobody*

      When you say you’re “also getting home late from work,” do you mean that you’re staying late to make up the time when you were late, or are you referring to the fact that your commute takes longer?

      If you’re making up the time by staying late, then the company should definitely pay you for the full day. But if you are working fewer hours because you’re arriving late, you should not expect them to pay you for time you didn’t work, even if it was caused by the weather. I assume you’re saving money by using public transportation instead of owning a car, and that’s your choice, not the company’s. They shouldn’t have to eat the cost of you choosing to take a less reliable form of transportation.

      1. TCO*

        Yes, this is what I’m confused about. If you’re still working your usual amount of hours, but just shifting them back due to transit delays, it would be nice if your boss were flexible about that (since it sounds like your exact schedule isn’t too important). But I thought you were asking about whether your company should essentially accept that you’ll be working fewer hours because your commute is longer.

      2. Snow Related Lateness*

        I am not making up time by staying late– what I meant was, I am losing time at work and time at home due to the commute (doubled or tripled on some days). I don’t have that kind of flexibility in my home life, unfortunately, which is why I asked my manager early on what the expectations were. I figured at least if I knew what they expected, I could make an informed choice about eating lost wages or going to extraordinary lengths to get to work on time. They never responded (I asked several times).

        1. TCO*

          In the absence of explicit permission to work fewer hours, then I think it’s your responsibility to work your full hours.

          1. Snow Related Lateness*

            Initially, my administrator explicitly told me to write the actual time I arrive to work on my timesheet, but to just enter in totals as if it was a regular 9-5 day. No one ever said anything to the contrary, despite some side-eye.

            1. QAT Contractor*

              Regardless of what your administrator told you, this is fraud and could get you, the admin and the company in a lot of trouble. I would only mark the hours you are actually working, not what your schedule says.

              Get clarification from your boss as to exactly what is expected of you. If it means having to get up and take the early train and stay late as well as your mom sacrificing her time to watch the baby more, then that might just be what has to happen until the transit is figured out.

              It sucks to deal with, but if you want to remain employed, you have to meet expectations of your employer.

              1. MsM*

                You might even want to consider putting together a memo proposing how you’d like to handle it (complete with explanations for why this is the optimal solution for both you and the company), and getting feedback from the boss on whether that matches their expectations.

        2. Colette*

          I’m not sure that’s the right question to ask, though. I’d assume their expectation is that you’ll be at work as usual. Since that is an issue for you, I think you need to be clear about why (i.e. “there are only too trains, so. I can come in early and leav early, or come in late”) and ask them to help you figure out the best solution,

        3. Big boss*

          Absent any other instructions, their expectation should be assumed to be that you work your usual hours. I’d expect a day or two of leniency to begin with, while you figure out how to make that work in these conditions, but after that it’s really on you to get to work on time.

    4. CheeryO*

      IMO, you have to do what you can to try to get to work on time, including leaving obscenely early. I know that the situation in Boston right now is extreme, but it’s just as easy for the employer to ask you to suck it up for the next few weeks as it is for you to ask them to allow you to be an hour late some days.

        1. Lizzie*

          We’re currently 2 inches short of the #1 spot.

          (I won’t complain if we don’t hit it.)

    5. IndieGir*

      Can you shift your hours? I’m in Boston as well, and they eliminated my normal train and the next one is routinely 1/2 an hour late. So I’ve been taking the one that goes in an hour earlier, which has been more reliable, then taking an earlier train home. Perhaps that would work for you — the early trains seem to do better. And yes, it is killing me getting up an hour earlier, but it is killing me less than sitting on the train for 2 hours in each direction. Actually, in the evening it was standing for two hours — if you made it on the train, it was a miracle to get a seat.

    6. SJP*

      You say you’re leaving work at the usual time or a bit earlier..
      Well if it’s taking you say an extra hour to get in, well leave an hour than usual to make up for it. Yes public transport I understand is rough in the US right now with the weather but make more of an effort to leave earlier and hopefully you’ll be less late/end up on time…
      I sympathise but leaving even earlier than you have been should help..

      1. Snow Related Lateness*

        I have an 8 month old baby that I need to pass off to my (exceedingly kind and generous) mom, who babysits during the week. Leaving an hour or two early just isn’t an option for me. I’m not saying I should get special consideration for that, but those are just the circumstances I’m working within.

        1. Case of the Mondays*

          I’m sympathetic but losing your job likely isn’t an option either. You are super lucky you are dealing w/ your mom and not a daycare with set hours. I get that you don’t want to lose that time with your baby but I bet your mom would be willing to watch her earlier on a short time basis given the situation.

          You can certainly discuss the situation with your employer and ask if they will let you reduce your hours do to the situation but I don’t think you can expect them to pay you for that time.

    7. Lo*

      While I very much agree that you are getting paid based on your hours worked, I also want to say that I live in Boston and I know of NO ONE who has not been affected by this year’s snow. People who drive, take the T, commuter rail, walk…It’s been SNOWHELL!

      So: My advice is that it is (long past) time to talk to your boss again. You need to speak up and discuss this more thoroughly in order to see what is going on. My concern is that you say early on you spoke with your manager, but you don’t note that you’ve followed up! Please do that. And I am concerned that you say that you can “see patience is growing thinner”–okay, first of all, you may be misreading the situation, but also, you need to talk to your manager to get their opinion. Ours don’t matter–only those who are paying you do!

      Set some time aside to talk to them. There’s a chance that everyone is actually ok with this–or that they may want tyou to shift hours, etc–but you won’t know until you ask.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes, 1000 times this. Talk to your boss, lay out the situation, and see what you can work out. Our opinions aren’t the ones that matter here.

        1. Snow Related Lateness*

          I followed up with the administrator at least 4 times. She was waiting for a response from the owners, and never got one. I think the worst is behind us and I’m mostly back on track with punctuality, but should I have gone over the administrator’s head?

          1. Lo*

            If you haven’t heard back from the owners/administrator, where are you getting the impression from that patience is growing thin? Also, are your coworkers impacted and thus late in the same manner?

    8. sittingduck*

      Unfortunately I agree with the other posters here that say its not the companies problem. Your job is be to there on time and stay the full day – it doesn’t matter to them HOW you do that, just that you do it. If that means you have to get up a hour earlier, and catch an earlier train/bus then so be it.

      While I know this is a temporary hindrance, it reminds of me questions Allison has gotten about a company moving their office and making someone’s commute longer. Allison’s answer is usually that its not he company’s problem and they don’t have to accommodate the fact that your commute is now longer. Some thing here – the company doesn’t need to account for the fact that you have less ‘free’ time now because your mode of transportation to work isn’t as reliable as it was.

      I agree that this royally sucks. I know everyone values their ‘free’ time outside of work, and needs to have a balance in order to maintain sanity, but you might just have to suck it up until the MBTA gets back on its feet and things get back to normal.

    9. Fellow Bostonian*

      Hopefully this reply doesn’t find you too late, but I’m another person snowed in at Boston and still suffering from the effects of the storm. For those of us who rely on the Commuter Rail, it’s absolutely disgraceful that the best case scenario involves a full recovery at the end of March. It’s made my normal 1.5 hour commute into 2.5 hours because I can no longer rely on the train. A few weeks ago, I got stuck on a broken down train for almost 3 hours and was unacceptably late, though thankfully my coworkers were sympathetic to my plight.

      My arrangement with work has been to work from home for 1 day/week to ease the commuting pains ( we have a system where we are connected to the office & available/online during work hours, so it’s tracked that way), to be flexible about my start time – e.g. 10 AM to 6 PM – and to change my commuting route. Instead of relying on the commuter rail to the green line, I drive to Alewife station with its plentiful parking, and then take the red line downtown. Aside from the usual hiccups, most of the subways mid-town have recovered, and I can personally vouch for the red line from Alewife. See if you can find any routes close to your place of work and park at one of the subway stations that offer parking.

      The other thing is – how much do you spend on your commuter rail pass? I spend $330 per month on the CR, but I am *not* paying for it next month. Meanwhile monthly rates at various Boston garages can be anywhere from $370-$500. I’m not going that route personally, but you might consider a cheaper garage near where you work.

      1. blackcat*

        Also, I strongly suspect that most snow will melt in the next week–we’re supposed to have highs in the 40s. Depending on where you live, you might be able to park in a residential neighborhood for free (once there are more parking spaces–so after a bit more melt) and then take one of the main bus lines in (eg, if Arlington or Belmont is on your usual route in, park in those towns and walk to the 77 or 75. I’m sure there are other options from different directions–I just know my area of the burbs). These busses are back to normal, running every 10 minutes, then you can take them to the red line and into down town.

        (Says someone who lives in one such neighborhood who sees people parking on my street to take transit into the city. I grumble at those people taking up all our street parking, but do what you’ve got to do)

    10. C Average*

      Maybe you should offer to collaborate with your leadership in writing a coherent inclement-weather policy for your company.

      I’m only half-kidding. We very rarely have weather severe enough to interfere with work (I’m in Oregon), but my company has an awesome and very thorough inclement-weather policy that gets posted on our internal blog at the beginning of each winter. It outlines the expectations of exempt and non-exempt employees, details contingency plans and work-at-home guidelines, and even covers what happens when we get a snowday on a holiday.

      Having a coherent policy wouldn’t solve your situation, but it would at least clarify what you can expect from your employer and what they can expect from you.

    11. Duh*

      I live in Boston and also rely on public transportation but I haven’t been late to work during the storms. I have anticipated delays and been leaving home significantly earlier than usual. I don’t understand why you couldn’t use foresight to do the same. Do you have kids or are there any other reasons why you can’t leave the house earlier? I kind of think this falls on you to arrive to work on time regardless of the public transportation situation.

  25. Cruciatus*

    Is it crazy to negotiate for vacation time at an entry-level, non-faculty position? I’ve applied to another administrative-type job at a local college that would be a step up from where I am now, though it’s still entry level (wanting 2-4 years experience). The ratings for working there are super high (at least compared to where I work now) but the one thing that gives me slight pause (very slight!) is the 5 vacation days after the first and second years. They do offer all the time off from Christmas to New Year’s so that would be awesome and maybe I’d be happy to just be away from where I am now, but if I stay here one more year I’ll go from 10 days to 15. I feel petty about it, and I’m OK not getting 15 at a new place, but I’d hate to lose those 5 days. If I actually get the job, is it crazy to ask for 10 as a new, entry-level staff person?

    1. Fante*

      It’s not crazy to ask, but considering they have such a structured policy in place, it’s unlikely they’ll budge for a new entry-level employee. You could take another tack, and when receiving an offer mention that you already have a vacation planned that exceeds their 5 day cap. Only do that if it’s true, though…

    2. Lily in NYC*

      5 days?? That is obscene! Would you also get time off whenever school is out, like for spring break? If not, I would try to negotiate. I would never accept a job with only 5 days off. Xmas to NY isn’t all that long so it’s like having two weeks vacation a year, but only one that you get to pick. Blech.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Depending on the college (public vs private), it may also close for state/federal holidays. That may not be enough to make a difference for you, however.

      2. AdAgencyChick*

        Right? PLEASE tell me that it’s at least “5 vacation plus additional personal/sick leave.”

        1. Cruciatus*

          Where I am now we get 10 days (well, staff does), 8 paid holidays (we get ONLY Christmas Day and New Years’ Day off, no days in between unless you use vacation time). This other school has the 5 days, 12 paid holidays off (including between Christmas and New Years’), and I think 2 personal days. So in the end it’s a bit of a wash, though it’s not ideal because I would like to have more days off when I choose to have them, but in the end it’s very close to the same amount of time. There is also additional sick time.

    3. Anon for this one*

      I’d at least ask. I was surprised when, a few months ago, I asked a hiring manager at my company about what kind of negotiation powers he possessed in bringing in new hires, and vacation time was indeed something he was empowered to work with.

    4. Spooky*

      Honestly, that sounds like a pretty generous leave policy to me – five days plus all that time around the holidays? We get the day of each holiday off, but no more time around them, and six days that become available after six month. I doubt you’re going to get a better offer than that.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        It is not remotely generous. What do you mean “all that time” around the holiday? The time between Xmas and New Years is less than a week. Two weeks off is crap, especially considering she only gets to choose the timing for one of them. I rarely see job postings offering less than three weeks to start and I don’t even bother with the ones that start at two weeks.

          1. Lily in NYC*

            Not anymore it’s not. The average is 14 days for workers in the US (per the bureau of labor and statistics) not including federal holidays.

    5. Sunflower*

      Are you hourly or salaried? As an hourly employee….this doesn’t seem all that strange. Yes it sucks but if you need days off, are you allowed to take them without issue? I’m salaried and got 5 vacation, 7 sick days my first year. It sucked because I felt bad if I needed to take more days off than what I was allowed.

      You can try to negotiate but not sure how much room you would have. I’ve found colleges are pretty strict on their benefits for certain positions. However, they are usually also more generous about vacation time and work/life balance.

    6. MsM*

      In my experience (which is admittedly second-hand, but I have a lot of anecdata from a lot of different places), universities tend to be pretty understanding if you need to take a day off here and there for personal stuff. Just make sure you’ve got at least a few months of solid performance under you first, and make sure it’s not near the end of the fiscal year or homecoming or anything like that.

  26. Gdi*

    Somebody in upper management described my work as “the most insignificant” in an email that went out to everyone.

    PSA don’t do that.

      1. Gdi*

        LOL it was an off-handed comment about sorting things by importance. And I’m taking it as a lesson on the use of office-wide listservs and reply-all.

        1. Sunflower*

          hmm maybe he should have worded it in terms of ‘these are issues we need to address in the order they need to be addressed’

    3. College Career Counselor*

      Could it have been a typo? (not saying it was, but I’ve occasionally had disconnects between brain and fingers when typing)

    5. Ann Furthermore*

      OMG that’s awful! I’m sorry. In the past 2 VP’s have made off-hand, disparaging comments about projects I worked on. Not my work specifically, but the projects in general. Very disheartening.

    6. Ineloquent*

      Ouch.

      I’d look at is as a good opportunity to ask your management ‘How can I take on more responsibility/grow in my role?’ Because, clearly, you’re not hitting their radar in the way you want.

    8. little Cindy Lou who*

      I think it was perhaps an insensitive word choice but personally I appreciate visibility when I get it. It’s a good chance to get in sync with your management team about what you can do to provide more value to the company and grow your career. Ask your manager to understand why that person ranks your work that way and express concern that you would like to work on more essential projects/tasks. You may even learn it’s just that you’re doing fine holding down some key day to day functions but s/he’s really wound up about some particular one time project or a new initiative that doesn’t impact you/yet.

      1. Gdi*

        I’m late getting back to this thread, but this is exactly why he said it. I’m doing well with day-to-day functions and he is focused on other, actually more important things, as well as a new project.

    9. C Average*

      Heh. This reminds me of a few years back, when I had a new manager, and she was trying to quantify the work of each of her direct reports. She spent a day shadowing me and then, at the end of the day, her only comment was, “Well, I don’t think most of the functions of your job could be outsourced.” Awesome.

      (She lasted eight months. Much rejoicing occurred when she left.)

  27. MAB*

    I am waiting for an email back for an informative/informal interview with a very busy manager. I emailed her the requested information about 2 weeks ago and have not heard back. How soon should I respond asking if she is still interested in chatting with me? I don’t want to come across as pushy and nor do I want to sit on it for too long as to come across as uninterested.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      I’m not sure you should push unless she already agreed to do the interview and you were following up by email. It sounds like that might be the case – I think I would wait until mid-week next week and then try again. Do you know if she has an assistant? If so, definitely cc him/her on your email.

      1. MAB*

        I wish I knew if she had an assistant. I would actually be super happy if an assistant reached out to me! She did agree to talk in the near future but with no time frame. Maybe reach out to the original contact again?

        1. Lily in NYC*

          Idea: If you have her direct number, call and see if someone else answers the phone (maybe hide your caller ID). Unless it’s a general receptionist, it’s probably an assistant and you can always ask for his/her email address so you can cc him/her on another email to the boss.

          1. Lily in NYC*

            Oh, and since she expressed interest, don’t feel weird about getting back in touch.

            1. Lily in NYC*

              Sure! It used to be *67 from a landline, not sure if it still is. There’s a way to do it from cells, just google it for your brand.

  28. KMC*

    It’s annual review time! My portion of the company has really grown over the past year+, and I’ve taken on a lot of additional responsibility. I’d like to make a strong case for a new title and a significant raise, but I’m not feeling super confident. Any tips?

    -2 years ago we agreed on a quarterly bonus (for special projects plus certain recurring tasks) and a slight cost of living annual raise. Since then, I’ve acquired a new boss (although old boss is still around, just not overseeing me)

    -we’ve expanded by 30%, and starting using additional software that means extra work (I’m in accounting, and now have to export and review items, where before, I only had to review. Some items won’t export, so it’s a lot of manual journal entries and extra steps). We may lose a couple of locations, but the work we do for them is minimal, so I don’t see a huge decrease in workload.

    -when I originally started this job 3+ years ago, I had an asst helping 30 hours/week – she didn’t work out, so we lost her, and I picked up the slack for about a year (with a slight temporary increase in pay), but with the significant expansion last year, we hired someone else full-time. She also didn’t work out, so we’ve replaced her. I fear that by asking for a raise, they’ll say “but we just hired someone to help you for $X!” even though I originally had 75% of that help.

    -special projects (which my quarterly bonus is based on) are just happening whenever now, and getting added at random times – I think it’s understood that we’ll get done whatever needs to get done, and I don’t think it makes sense for me to pick random special projects (since there’s not much input from my boss’ level on this) to be bonused on. I’d rather have a salary increase and maybe bonuses based on company profitability, if there are bonuses.

    -late last year, I made a couple of mistakes/items that weren’t up to my normal standard – I acknowledged them, and put a plan into place to fix them the next time. I talked to both my boss’ about it, and got an email back from one that was very complimentary and understanding, so I don’t feel like this will be held against me, but due to the overwhelming amount of work in the past year, I did make some mistakes.

    -I’ve also become HR to some degree – we put into place a health insurance and retirement plan, and I am the contact and the one who put everything together. It’s more work than I thought it would be, but I really love doing it.

    -my current boss love to negotiate, so I’m not sure if I should go in asking for more than I want or not. I am very happy with my company and benefits, and I absolutely don’t want to leave.

    1. Dawn*

      When I asked for a new title and a raise at my last job, I went in with a list of everything that had been added since I started at that job. Basically I was a Teapot Analyst and was asking to become a Senior Teapot Analyst, which was an entirely new position that had never existed at my company before.

      I say, go in with a list of everything that you do now and prepare to have a good conversation about the possibility of getting a new job title. Don’t softball, but just point out how much things have changed and blah blah blah and then be open to discussion about it. For me, when I asked for the new title, my manager had to take some time to think about if he thought it made sense for the team and if he thought I deserved it, so even after the conversation that we had I still didn’t get an answer right away.

  29. junipergreen*

    I’m contemplating a move from a Big City to a Small City (which is my hometown), for several reasons: cost of living, real estate possibilities, and to be closer to my family. I’m ready for a new chapter.

    If I pursue this, I’d soon be putting in a request to work remotely, which I expect to have approved. The time zone will be the same, and I’d be a short flight away for the odd occasions that would require me to be in the office. But I’m nervous about a shift to working on my own from home – I love my coworkers and the bustle of the office. Does anyone have any suggestions about managing a switch from office life to working from home? Any lessons learned? I want to be prepared, and know it will be a big adjustment.

    1. Dawn*

      If at all possible set aside a room in your new place to be your office, equip that room like you’d equip an office, and ONLY use that room when you’re working. Other than that, I have found that working from home is immensely freeing once you get into the right mindset. No more commute, no more having to put on clothes if you don’t want to, easy to take a stretch break and throw some laundry in if you need to, no more having to eat out for lunch if you don’t want to, etc etc etc.

    2. Beancounter in Texas*

      I read an article years ago about including telecommuters in the office environment and while this would burden your company more than you, I’ll suggest it for thought. The corporate office had a desk with a computer, monitor, speakers, webcam and a chair set up, streaming the telecommuter’s webcam. This way, office-bound coworkers could “stop by your cube” to chat and the telecommuter could get a sense of what was happening in the office.

      Of course, now you could just Google chat with coworkers or maybe even just instant message.

      1. MsM*

        If that’s not practical, you might consider having designated “office hours” where people other than your immediate supervisor and whoever you work with on a regular basis are encouraged to call or IM and check in with you. Not that you can’t reach out if you need something, but it seems to work pretty well for the out of towners in my office.

        Make sure they’ve got a solid conference call system in place, too. I can’t tell you how many meetings I had to have recapped for me at my last job because I wasn’t able to hear anything while I was in them.

      2. OriginalEmma*

        That’s actually a really clever idea. I wonder how well it works out in reality? Does the telecommuter feel watched or monitored? Does it satisfy office-bound employees and help build inclusivity?

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      If you like the “bustle” of an office, you might consider occasionally (or routinely) working from a coffee shop to get that same energy. “Co-working spaces” – where you pay a monthly fee to have access to a more officelike environment, usually with wifi or ethernet stations, free coffee, conference rooms, etc. – are becoming very popular where I’m at. It’s probably more of an urban phenomenon, but depending on how strong the “everybody knows your name” vibe is in your hometown, you might be able to informally set up a similar arrangement with a local business.

      Ack…”so” “many” “quotes” in this post.

    5. jamlady*

      I’m not sure if you’re hourly/salary or work regularly with people or if you’re more independent, but I have worked from home A LOT in the past. Each time was hourly, so I was VERY strict about charting down my hours. If I needed to sign off for an hour for whatever reason, I shot my supervisor a quick e-mail when I left and a quick e-mail when I got back on. She trusted me, but I ALWAYS did this as a courtesy because I worked almost entirely on my own in this position. Another position I had was higher level, so this courtesy wasn’t for my supervisor but for those I supervised. This position was much less independent and I actually worked in the office around the clock for the first half of the contract and then in a totally different state for the second half. Remote was doable, but it was basically a thing about making yourself available around the clock and A LOT of scheduling phone/e-mail conversations (even for little things) in order to keep everyone on the same page. It worked out fine, but because you’re the one that’s away, it’s really important to hold yourself accountable and be available so that you not being there doesn’t make anyone else’s job harder. It’s very nice that you’re close enough just in case a big meeting pops up where you need to be physically present. Hopefully it gets approved with no issue and you enjoy it! I really love working from home haha.

    6. catsAreCool*

      I like having music on when I work. Working in a quiet room is tough for me.

      Remember to get up every now and then. It’s easy to get so lost in work that a person doesn’t get up.

      I put a few mirrors in my room so that I can look into 1 mirror and see the reflection from a mirror that it’s looking into – gives me a chance to stretch my eyes.

      Fortunately, friends and family know that I’m working, even if I’m working from home.

    7. AnotherFed*

      I just started teleworking this winter, thanks to weather and some policy adjustments at work. I also like the bustle of my office, and find that part of why I like my job is the crazy interruptions to solve really strange problems. I’m only an occasional remote worker (which might be making it harder), and I’m not finding it as easy as being in an office, but here’s some things I’ve learned:

      1. Dedicate space to working. This can be as simple as using the dining room table instead of the living room sofa, just make a specific switch from not-work space to work space.

      2. Enforce structure. I find I can’t let myself take 2 minutes to swap laundry or 10 minutes to take the dog out or 5 minutes to make myself a quick snack, because then every time I get up for any reason, I do one or more of the added things. It doesn’t seem like much until I add up all that time and realize it’s 1-2 hours.

      3. Butt in chair – yes, you’re working from home and no one cares if you’re still wearing your pajamas, but still get up when the alarm goes off and get working at the regular time. And on the opposite end, once your day is over, do your best to disconnect except for truly urgent things.

      4. Find other reasons to get out of the house. Even if you’re an introvert, many people (and definitely me!) start to feel cooped up if you don’t get out and do something fairly regularly. Little things like going to the gym, running out for groceries, going to pick up takeout, or taking the dog to the dog park help abate that.

  30. IrishGirl*

    This came into my head as I was browsing through the archives yesterday – Do people view sick leave as a benefit or an insurance scenario?

    I’m curious, because at home it’s definitely seen as an insurance policy. We do have legally mandated vacation (minimum 20 days per year plus statutory holidays), which may affect people’s opinions. Sick days are most commonly viewed as something to be used in the case that you are ill enough to be unable to complete your job, not as additional paid days off. It’s also not really done (or allowed afaik) to take sick days if you yourself aren’t sick – you can’t take a sick day to care for a sick relative for example. Another (relatively common) aspect is that while you may have generous sick leave allowances (govt employees get up to six months in a rolling four year period), it’s far more common to be required to produced a doctor’s certificate if you can’t work. I have a friend who worked for the government; their old policy allowed up to seven days sick leave per year without medical certification, this was cut back to three days (while keeping the number of days allowed in total) because employees were viewing the non-certified sick leave as extra vacation.

    Curious to hear people’s thoughts.

    1. KMC*

      I’m in the US. We have 15 days at my company, and it was actually stated to me as 10 vacation days and 5 sick/PTO days.

      I will normally try to leave a day or so in case I get sick at end of year, but otherwise, I schedule them as vacation days or use them for doctor’s appointments, etc.

    2. Sascha*

      I’m in the US, and I see it as a benefit. I use my sick days for various things – being sick myself, needing to take care of a sick dependent, doctor’s appointments. I have never had to provide a doctor’s note to prove I or my dependent was sick. However, that’s not to say a doctor’s note isn’t required sometimes, but it’s usually not a blanket policy, at least not in the places I have worked. Doctor’s notes are usually reserved for serious conditions (hospitalization, FMLA) or if the manager suspects the employee is abusing the sick leave.

      1. jamlady*

        haha I had an annoying employer (very brief contract) who was obsessed with people’s sick days and was convinced everyone was lying and would require mounds of paperwork (once you hit the 3-day mark). I was in the hospital for a week and I brought her a binder of paperwork along with pictures of me laying in the hospital bed doing breathing treatments while my med team held various weird items (such as a giant stuffed lobster) around my bed. We also had one zoomed into my heart rate on the monitor and you could see a nurse’s huge :( expression in the reflection haha. My boss was not pleased. Just being thorough… :)

    3. Nobody*

      I look at it more like insurance, although that’s partly because I have been working at companies that give a lot of sick time. I worked at my last job long enough to have 8 weeks of sick leave per year. In that case, I think it’s obvious that the company didn’t intend to allow me to take 8 extra weeks of vacation if I didn’t get sick. They certainly couldn’t afford to give every employee 8 weeks off per year (in addition to vacation time). I’m sure they counted on only a few employees using the full amount of sick leave in any given year (say, if they had major surgery or a serious illness), and the rest just using a few days per year — and only when they’re actually sick. We were not allowed to use sick leave for doctor’s appointments or to take care of a family member.

    4. CheeryO*

      I get 13 sick days per year, so I view it as insurance more than a benefit. I use some of it to go to medical appointments, but I let the rest accumulate just in case. Perks of saving sick days (other than for a health crisis of your own) are that they can be donated to a coworker or “cashed out” for an earlier retirement.

    5. Olive Hornby*

      I’d say I see it more as insurance than as a benefit — we have a very generous vacation policy and are encouraged to use all of our vacation days and personal days, but sick days are really just for when you’re actually sick. We don’t require doctor’s notes or anything (unless it’s a long enough illness that the company’s short-term disability policy would kick in), so it’s on the honor system, but people don’t tend to view them as days that can be used up in the way that vacation/personal time would be.

    6. JC*

      I am in the US, and I view sick leave as insurance. I’ve worked for the US federal government and for a private company. Both gave separate buckets of sick and vacation leave, let you use sick leave to care for others who were sick (also for things like bereavement), and don’t require doctor’s notes. Both also pay you for your unused vacation leave, but not sick leave, when you separate (although the US federal govt now gives you credit towards the years of service calculation in your pension for unused sick time, to combat people being “sick” for a few months before retiring).

    7. Sabrina*

      I’m in the US and I see it as a benefit. I get 15 PTO days a year. Sick, vacation, doesn’t matter. There’s no government mandated days off, sick days, holidays, etc.

    8. AmyNYC*

      I get 10 vacation days that roll over and 5 sick days that are use-em-or-lose-em. I see sick days as a benefit, and will take mental health/don’t feel like it days if I haven’t used them up late in the year.

    9. Amtelope*

      We’ve moved to 24 days per year of combined PTO with no distinction between sick leave and vacation time, so to me it’s a benefit. It’s expected that if you’re not unexpectedly sick or otherwise dealing with an emergency, you’ll get approval in advance to take PTO. But there’s no requirement to show a doctor’s note or other proof that you are having an emergency. As long as people are getting their work done, it’s fine for them to take personal time (and if they’re not getting their work done, that’s the issue — in my department, we need X number of teapots made by Y date, not X number of people at their desks every minute of every day).

    10. Anonsie*

      If the time is separated into sick and vacation categories, I think most people agree that the sick leave is only for time that you are actually sick. Some places do allow sick day use for care of someone else who is ill or doctor’s appointments when you are actually well, which I think is the best possible way to categorize it, but I wouldn’t fault a company entirely for not allowing those uses. The other side to that is that if you’re someone who rarely needs a sick day, you might take one for a day when you were just mildly under the weather, which I think is where the “benefit” side comes in. That time is allotted to you and, if you are unwell in any way and can swing being away, I would say it’s fair to take it. If you’re already out a lot for regular illness, though, I don’t think you could justify taking more days when you didn’t really need to.

      I do think it’s short-sighted not to allow doctor’s appointments for sick leave. People with chronic illnesses (like me) have a lot of doctor’s appointments on a regular basis to make sure you don’t get sick in the first place, which can drain your vacation time really fast. Since we don’t often get the same generous allotment of vacation time that you do, that means I can’t really take vacations the way my healthy colleagues can, which is crummy. Sometimes it means having to delay your appointments for long periods of time, which is double crummy.

    11. sittingduck*

      I work for a small company in the US. I get 5 ‘sick’ days a year. This time can be used if I am sick, if a dependent is sick, or if either of us has a doctors appt or other medical related issue. I used a day when I got into a car accident and was just mentally shaken (although physically okay).

      We are told that our ‘sick’ days are not vacation/personal days. We get 2 weeks vacation, and 3 ‘personal’ days as well. Those can be used however we want. The ‘sick’ days, though, must be used for health related things.

      If we don’t use the sick or personal days within the calender year, we loose them, but 5 of the vacation days can be ‘rolled over’.

    12. Snargulfuss*

      We’re explicitly told that sick leave is a benefit. Disability insurance (at least in my case) wouldn’t kick in for 90 days, so a bank of sick leave time is insurance to cover costs if disability is ever needed.

    13. Lizzie*

      It’s definitely insurance for me. It’s actually spelled out in my contract that sick days are to be used when I’m so ill that I can’t perform my job functions and that every effort must be made to schedule medical appointments outside of working hours. Employees with dependents (children, mostly, but I have some coworkers who care for older parents/other relatives) can also use sick days to care for said dependents. I think there’s something in there about doctor’s notes for X number of days absent, but I can’t remember what X is offhand.

  31. Beancounter in Texas*

    I’ve commented before that my husband is job hunting and was concerned about a contract gig looking bad on his resume. Well, the contract gig was rescinded due to internal actions beyond the hiring managers control. It bites, but it’s done.

    We met with an executive search firm and they’re offering their active job search services for a lovely fee of $7,250 for a 12 month relationship. For free, they’ve put him in the recruiting pool; this fee pays for services of them tapping existing relationships with companies to land him a job, plus grooming him to make the most of interviews, etc. They claim a 90% success rate and the perk that many companies will reimburse the new hire for the fee. I’m suffering from a little sticker shock, but the lure of being reimbursed is hooking me, in spite of the hardship it will put on us now. Hubby wants to shop around and compare.

    In speaking with a coworker about the firm, she raved about her husband never went more than a week without a job and how our husbands should network. Both her and her husband have the philosophy that you should never have to pay to look for a job. It’s rather catchy. But neither of them have landed executive positions either. I don’t want to dismiss this advice simply because searching for an executive position is lauded as a whole other game, but I also value the services offered. I don’t know if I value them enough to cough up seven grand, but the soft skills they’ll teach can’t be taken back.

    What’s your opinion? Is finding an executive position a different game from landing a regular ol’ job? Are executive search firms worth it?

    1. Rex*

      $7,250 for “services”?!? Sorry, this sounds like a rip-off, and taking advantage of desperate job seekers, no less. If he’s talented, it’s already in their best interests (and they’re no doubt making $$$ from the companies) to place him in a job. If he’s executive level, he probably already knows what to do in a job interview, and there is plenty of free info out there.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Agreed. Executive search firms should be reimbursed for their services by the EMPLOYER, not the prospective employee.

      2. Beancounter in Texas*

        I think the passive job hunt is covered. He’s already in the recruiter’s candidate pool, where employers pay up to 30% of the new hire’s salary to the search firm. But that means waiting for the right job to come along.

        And in spite of being an executive level person, this is actually his first job search since he was in high school. After high school, he started a business, merged it with Company X and became their employee, rising to VP through his own effort. They terminated him without warning in December (hubby saw it coming, but expected it later rather than sooner) and here he is, job hunting for the first time in his professional career in his mid-30’s.

        1. Rex*

          I think either way, he is “waiting for the right job to come along”. Just because the recruiter is promoting him doesn’t magically make him a better candidate. I am still highly skeptical that this is anything other than smoke and mirrors, and it’s more than a little sketchy given than it is finding people in a time of weakness and charging very large sums of money.

    3. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

      First thing, I’d do some googling to see if this kind of thing really is an accepted practice.

      Second, I’d want a list of names and contact info of people who have paid the money and used the service and been placed into lovely high-paying executive positions.

      *shrug* it may be a legit practice for certain categories of jobs. But it also sounds like one of those scams where “you just won $1,000,000!” – but you have to pay several hundred dollars in fees before you can receive the money.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      No, absolutely not. You should never pay to look for a job. Moreover, most of these job search services — even exec level ones — are pretty bad. You could be paying a huge amount for services that are likely to suck.

    6. MsM*

      Yeah, no. The executive search firms I’m familiar with all work directly with the companies to identify candidates, and get their fees from them. None of this “oh, you can probably get reimbursed!” stuff.

  32. Nobody Here By That Name*

    How much should one worry about dropping titles when changing jobs? Currently I’m Teapot Production Manager. A colleague at another company says they have an opening for a Teapot Production Analyst. According to her, because this is a bigger and more well known Teapot making company, the title doesn’t matter as much as the paycheck does. In other words, it’s more impressive on one’s resume to be a Teapot Production Analyst in King’s Landing instead of Teapot Production Manager at the Wall.

    Which is possibly true, but I can’t help but feel that someone looking at my resume would see this as a step down, and wonder why I felt the need to take it. But this may also be due to me being over-sensitive because of how long it’s taken me to earn my current title. Thoughts?

    1. Dawn*

      Compare the job responsibilities and make your own judgement. I’ve come to realize I don’t want to work for anyone not smart enough to look past my title and see what my actual job responsibilities were- if my interviewers are only looking at titles and not actual duties, then they’re not very good at what they do.

        1. jamlady*

          Also, how important is that in your industry? It’s common in mine for people to jump up and down a lot because we do so much short-term work, but that may not be the same in your situation. That being said, I agree with Dawn. Responsibilities matter – a title is just some words.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, this. All I’ve done my whole career is rise and drop in titles… from assistant director to receptionist to associate director to director to analyst. Don’t get too hung up on titles. Many titles are inflated anyway.

  33. hildi*

    You know the proverbial 7-Year-Itch in marriage? Does that happen in one’s career, too? I’ve been in my current position for 8.5 years and I’m just not digging it anymore. I don’t really know what’s happened, either. I think I posted about this a few weeks ago or something, and I don’t really have anything new to say, but I’m an external processer so this exercise just helps me, I guess :)

    I’m trying to decide if I truly and over my position or if this is a normal low-point and I just need to ride it out? When I decide I’m done with something, I’m well and truly done and I don’t regret it. In other words, I do know my own mind and I trust my gut, yet I keep waffling, so I’m feeling like I’m stuck between knowing I want to do something different, but not feeling brave enough to just move on it.

    I do know what I’m kind of getting tired of classroom training – I still want to be in the field of training and development. Despite myself I do really like helping adults learn and grow. I just really don’t like having to be “on” all the time in a classroom. I don’t like the feeling anymore of being judged or knowing that I may not be hitting the mark with people (and not really knowing about it until after the fact when I can’t do anything about it!). I also don’t like not knowing whether I’m really helping anyone or not due to the very generalized nature of my classes. I know I’m generally liked by the majority of people that come through my classes, but I don’t get that satisfaction of seeing if I’m having an impact on anyone. The need to have a deeper, more ongoing experience with a learner is something that keeps bubbling to the surface whenever I think of it.

    Bah. I am just yammering, but I hoped that’s what Friday Open Thread is for. :)

    1. Malissa*

      Get your resume together and apply for anything intersting. If you don’t look you don’t know if what you are doing is a sweet deal still or if something better really is out there.

      1. Dang*

        Hildi, do you work in ABE?? I did some work with adult ed programs in grad school and have had a general interest in it ever since, but I can’t figure out a way to get involved aside from being a literacy tutor, which requires a training only once or twice a year that always seems to be during a time I’m away!

        Anyway, I don’t doubt at all that you’re making a HUGE difference, even if it’s not totally quantifiable in your head. But there’s no harm in looking to see what’s out there and doing it somewhat seriously- you might find something that you never thought of that would be a great fit- or you might find a renewed interest in your own job! One never knows.

        1. hildi*

          Thanks for the kind words! I suspect you’re right that I’ll either find something that’s a better fit for now or I’ll find renewed interest in my own job. I don’t work in ABE (is that Adult Basic Education? Or something similar?). I’d really like to do work with adults in that realm, too. Going more in-depth with people. I have checked with the local community college to see if I have anything they’d be interested in me teaching, but they don’t. Dang. I think that’s one of those jobs we hear about if you’re in a grad program like Adult Education & Training, but don’t actually know anyone that does it. :)

    2. Lore*

      I went through that a few years ago, and I agree with Malissa. Looking at what’s out there, and exploring options, can really help–both because it can help you to crystallize what the issues with your current job are and whether they’re solvable without leaving, and because it can give you a real concrete comparison to see if you’d be happier at job X. I ended up interviewing for a bunch of jobs and getting a few offers (though not of course the jobs I’d have jumped to leave for, sigh)–and the process of thinking through the offers definitely helped me to think up a plan for the changes I’d need to stay, and gave me the courage to talk to my manager about them. Which has not been an easy process, it must be said–it took almost two years, and a change in managers, to get past “I hear your concerns and we’ll see what we can do” followed by crickets and to some actual new responsibilities and finally a promotion.

      1. hildi*

        Thanks, Lore! You make a really good point about crystallizing the issues I’m having here as I do a job search and/or coming up with a plan for change here if I stay.

    3. dd*

      Make the move. You’ve gotten comfortable with it and it is a safe job but not what you want to do. Don’t waste your time in a job if you are no longer interested.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I definitely believe in the 7 year itch in work places. It may come at year 5 or year 9. But I think it’s a real thing.
      I think it comes from something inside us that knows we can do more and it is time to move on.

    5. C Average*

      There’s something here that stands out to me: “I don’t like knowing if I’m helping anyone or not.”

      When you’re in your early career and you’re getting trained and supervised, if you’re doing well you constantly have someone telling you so. That kind of feedback is really fun to receive.

      As your career progresses, not only do you not have people watching and praising you if you’re doing a good job, but the good job you’re doing becomes your baseline, and if you want to get noticed and appreciated, you have to keep doing BETTER. It’s not like you get to “good” and just coast.

      And if you’re in a role that doesn’t get much feedback, it’s hard to give so much to it and get . . . just a paycheck and an annual review.

      Even reasonable-sized egos need some stroking.

      This morning in a meeting my manager said something nice about a project I’d done that I literally thought no one had noticed. That gave me as much pleasure as I would have gotten from a bonus check! Being noticed, having people tell us our work matters, knowing it makes a difference whether we do our best or phone it in . . . these can be hard to come by when you’ve been quietly doing excellent work in the same role for a long time.

      Sorry, I don’t have a solution. Just empathy.

      1. hildi*

        Thanks, C Average. I am going to share this with my husband (because ironically we both have the same boss; different roles; different food chain; but same boss) and we have been talking more about this exact thing at home. You captured the feeling very well. Much empathy! Thanks!

    6. Windchime*

      I tend to get the itch around year 3 or 4. It’s happening at this job, right on cue. I love the workplace and the team, I’m just going to try to see if there can be some changes to my role. I’m fine with the money and all that….just bored and ready to do something challenging.

  34. loquaciousaych*

    I was fired Tuesday from a job that was a horrible fit. (I wrote about it a couple weeks ago in the open thread.)

    I was fired for a violation of their attendance policy. I was admittedly late several times and finally figured out a good route to work that would allow me to be on time and was on track to never being late again when I got stuck in a snowdrift, and that led to my termination. This is probably the biggest “hiccup” in my professional career ever, and it has never been a problem before this job. I don’t expect it to be a problem again.

    I’ve had four interviews, so I’m headed in the right direction. I’d love any advice or comments on how to handle/get ahead of the attendance issue so that I can present myself as a viable candidate.

    1. fposte*

      Can you talk about what you’d do in advance to prevent it from happening in the new job, rather than waiting until after it happened to correct it?

    2. Ihmmy*

      Tell yourself you start 15-20 minutes before you actually do. Or that you at least want to get there that early so you can take off your jacket, make a coffee, get comfortable, etc.

      1. jamlady*

        I’m one of those people that’s 10 minutes early to everything (minimum) and a big part of that is that I’m such a planner. I don’t see 8 am as the time to be there, I see 8 am as the time I should be opening up my report or getting into the work truck to make my way out for the day. I personally need the extra 10 or 15 minutes in the morning to prep for my day. That time is for me. If, like Ihmmy suggests, you start thinking about the fact that all that you do for you before your work day is for you and not for your job (ugh so many words), then you’ll start thinking your work day actually starts 10-15 minutes earlier than that 8 am start time (or whatever).

    3. AmyNYC*

      I saw good advice somewhere else about this – plan to go to the gym/get coffee/run errands near your office before work, then if you’re running late, you can skip the plans and still get to work on time.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds to me that if you had a good fit at the old job then this never would have happened.
      Think about how you avoided this with previous jobs, some of those techniques will probably still work once you have a job with a good fit.

  35. AMD*

    I manage a retail pharmacy, open 9am to 9pm, and my staff rotate shifts so everybody works their fair share of night shifts and weekends. I have a mediocre employee who asked me recently if she could switch to all daylight shifts because her elderly husband drives her to work and is a very bad, dangerous driver, especially at night. I’ve told her she needs to talk to her husband about this, and her response is, “He doesn’t listen to me. What else am I supposed to do? I don’t want to five and I don’t have anyone else.”

    I’ve told her I can’t put her on daylight shifts only, but she still acts like getting her a way to work is my problem. I also feel guilty because it sounds like her husband has nearly wrecked their car several times recently because of his bad driving, and I don’t want this lady to get hurt or killed, but…

    Is saying directly “It is your responsibility to get to work safely. I cannot change your shifts in a way that puts an unfair burden on the other staff because you cannot arrange your transportation” okay? Is there a better way to say this? I have said if she wanted to rip to part-time then we accommodate her shifts better, but she says that she needs the benefits and so cannot afford to do that… She has also been talking about retiring for a year or two, but I feel like it would be inappropriate for me to bring that up.

    1. TCO*

      I think that’s perfectly fair to say. You’re not very concerned with retaining this employee, so why bend over backwards to accommodate her? However, I do think you owe it to her to be really clear that you’re not going to change your mind of this, and so if she really needs all-daytime hours, you’ll be understanding and supportive if she needs to find a new job. She might need that prompting to get a serious reality check that this situation just isn’t tenable for anyone. Is there another branch you could help her transfer to, one that can accommodate her schedule and/or has public transportation to her home?

      I know you’re sympathetic to her (who wouldn’t be?!) and want her to have the income/benefits she needs while keeping a dangerous man off of the roads. In terms of morale of the rest of your staff, you want to handle this carefully. You don’t want to give her so much special treatment (especially since she’s not a high performer) that they begin to resent taking on the burden of working all of the “bad” shifts. But you also want your team to see that you’re not cold and heartless, so be firm while still being compassionate.

    2. Nobody*

      How about something like this: “I need you to work XYZ schedule in order to make sure all of the shifts are covered. If you’re not available to work those hours, I’m going to need to move you to part-time/replace you with someone who can work those hours. Can you commit to working the hours I need you?” And if she says no, set a date for her last day (or for her to go part-time). The situation sucks, but you’re totally right that her transportation isn’t your responsibility.

    3. Meg Murry*

      Have you asked your staff whether any of them actually prefer all nights and weekends? Its possible you could have people who WANT to work more nights and weekends if they have a second job, or so they can trade off childcare with a spouse and not pay for daycare or to take classes at the community college or any number of reasons.

      I would ask your staff whether anyone wants to volunteer for nights and weekends, and if you have enough coverage then you could accomodate her – but otherwise I agree with your plan, and that you can’t just give her only daylight hours and stick everyone else with the crummy shifts.

      1. Camellia*

        This is a great idea. My first thought on the constantly changing shifts was ouch! How can you adjust to a schedule if it is constantly changing?

    4. Arjay*

      I agree that your position here is fine. I wonder though if there’s room for her to work “daylight” shifts if she would commit to working every weekend? Do you have staff that would be willing to cover more evening hours if that meant they could work fewer weekend hours? Just a suggestion, understanding that it may not be viable in your workplace.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        If she’s near retirement (or talking about it) and her husband is elderly, I would bet she’s never learned how to drive. Which isn’t a very good idea to rely on one person in the house for all the transportation, it may work when people are young, but when they get old like the husband? What is she going to do when he has to give up his keys? It sounds like that day is coming, one way or another.

        Does she have some children in the area who can pick her up at night? I know it’s not your responsibility to help her with her transportation, but maybe she hasn’t considered all her options.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Any customer facing job I have had came with the requirement of having your own transportation.
      You can probably lay it on the line here. I think your biggest concern could be that this person’s work is not that great and it would not be a loss to the place if she left. This causes a lot of people to over think and strain to be “extra fair” because of negative bias, when they really don’t have to.
      If you think of it this way, she is asking someone to take care of her night shift hours for her. And what happens during the winter, is she going to need to be out by 4 so he can drive home in the daylight?
      I think I would tell her to look around and see if she can car pool home with someone. Maybe there is an adjacent store that is also open and she could find someone there?

  36. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

    So – I have a pregnant employee who is crying – a lot – both in internal meetings and in meetings with stakeholders or funders. Any little thing that is new, different, or puts something on her plate leaves her crying. And not just a few tears – somewhere between quiet crying and sobbing that goes on for 20 – 30 minutes (or until the meeting ends). Excusing herself briefly doesn’t seem to help. It’s at least 3 times a week. I’ve worked with her for a long time, and this is totally new since she’s been pregnant.

    I do completely understand that she’s dealing with hormonal issues, but the crying is having an impact on the vibe of meetings because people are hesitant to say anything (no matter how benign) that might upset her, and some of our stakeholders are questioning how professional she is. I’m sure that we’re not hearing some things from our stakeholders that we need to hear because of the fear of making a pregnant lady cry even harder. It’s not practical for me to remove all these meetings from her job.

    I’d love to know about AAM readers would address this, and would also like to hear from people who have been pregnant how controllable/not controllable this might be.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Can you talk to her about in a pretty matter-of-fact way? Has she said anything about it herself? I think my first step would be to brainstorm with her about what solutions might look like, assuming she realizes it’s an issue (and how could she not?).

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        Yes. She brought it up with me privately immediately after the first time it happened, and we’ve talked about it a few times sense (mostly while she’s sitting in my office trying to talk between sobs). She’s been very apologetic, and seems surprised that is happening to her (she’s got a pretty even temperament). However, I haven’t said, “we have to find a way to get this to stop – or at least decrease a lot”. I guess my hesitation is that it seems like a condition related to her pregnancy and I don’t know if it’s any more reasonable to ask her to stop crying than it is to ask her to stop having morning sickness. I’ve never been pregnant, so I’m not feeling confident about what is reasonable.

        1. TCO*

          I wonder if she should check in with her doctor or EAP. She really needs to have ownership over this issue by bringing some solutions (or even attempted solutions) to the table.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I think it’s less “we have to find a way to get this to stop” and more “here are the reasons I think we need to find solutions for client (or other) meetings, and let’s talk about what might be possible.” That way you’re not saying “make your body stop having a physical reaction that you might not be able to control right now” and instead it’s “this is problematic because of ___ so let’s figure out what to do.”

          1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

            That makes sense as a more appropriate frame. She’s basically said that she really doesn’t know what to do and just can’t help it, but perhaps I’m not doing a great job explaining why it’s a problem. Her focus is more on the fact that she’s feeling embarrassed.

            To respond to a comment below, it’s not that new things are being piled onto her plate, it’s more that she’s in a role where she’s part of making decisions about all kinds of things all the time, and the idea of even thinking through something overwhelms her.

            We do have an EAP – I hadn’t thought about that. I love the EAP – it really helps people realize see the line between their personal needs and their employer’s needs, which at the same time getting some support.

            1. Observer*

              Also, suggest that she talk to her doctor. Normally, I would say that it really is not your place to tell someone to see a doctor, but this is directly affects her work. And, by the way, what she is experiencing is NOT “normal”. It’s not unheard of, but it’s actually something that her doctor should be taking seriously because it’s often linked to underlying or incipient medical conditions (which many OB’s are ignorant of / tend to ignore, so she’s going to have to bring it up and be fairly insistent that her doctor check this out thoroughly before accepting a brush off.)

        3. LMW*

          If she’s not used to dealing with crying as an involuntary reaction (which it can be), she’s probably having a hard time getting a handle on it. I would think it is pretty similar to morning sickness. It might help to think of it as a physical reaction rather than an emotional one.
          Perhaps rather than approaching this as “we have to find a way to get this stop” conversation, you can say “Here are some of the things that I’m concerned about. We need to find a way to avoid these issues.” Of course the ideal would be that she stops crying. But if that can’t/doesn’t happen, how else can you handle it?
          I feel for both of you. That’s such an awkward position to be in!

          1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

            That’s sort of my question – she feels like she can’t do anything about it. And I don’t really know how to tell someone how to stop crying. I think that the EAP or the doc might be the right move…neither one of us has come up with anything.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Under other circumstances, you can tell a crying person that it is okay to cry. That for me, has been the quickest way to get them to STOP crying. It’s validation.

              In this case, though that probably is not going to work. I think that it is physiological in basis, having fought with similar things myself (for reasons other than pregnancy) I know first hand when a person is low on particular vitamins or minerals it is dang near impossible to keep the tear ducts in check. In short, check in with the doc and let him know what is going on.

          2. Mephyle*

            Since everything points toward the crying being a physical reaction, she is probably not even crying because she’s upset. I mean she’s upset that she’s crying, but not particularly upset about the issue that triggered it. Since she’s feeling shame or mortification about the crying itself, she may not have made that connection.

      2. Meg Murry*

        Since being pregnant means that she will be taking maternity leave at some point, could you start ramping up whoever is going to cover her leave now, so there are less new things being put on her plate?
        Could she participate in some of the meetings from a conference call, so if she does have a negative reaction she could have it without anyone seeing it? Or is there any way for her to have a preview of the agenda so less things come as a shock to her?
        Do you have an EAP? Could you suggest she use it to talk to someone to either help her if she’s feeling overwhelmed in general or to help her find some coping mechanisms when she’s about to cry?
        Also, could you ask (in a kind way) if she is getting enough sleep and suggest she take a sick day or work from home day to catch up on sleep if not? When I am in an already emotional state, not getting enough sleep will help tip me over the edge into crying at the drop of a hat.
        Last, and not really recommended – but if everyone knows she’s pregnant, if she leaves the room in a hurry with a hand over her mouth, they will think she’s going to leave to be sick, not cry – and then she could stay in the ladies room until she’s feeling better. Having been the pregnant woman leaving meetings in a hurry for the bathroom, its not fun – but everyone understands, and will catch you up later.

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          You have a good point about sick time. She’s been saving up all her sick time (for years, really) so that she can have an extra-long paid leave, so it might be that she really needs to just take some time off now to rest, knowing that a leave being 4 months and 29 days vs. 5 months isn’t going to be a huge difference down the line. It would not be weird for me the suggest that to her in our culture.

          1. Meg Murry*

            Is she at the point where she has to take a lot of doctor’s appointments now? I was hoarding time and constantly making up hours missed for appointments, and it was so much better once I just started taking days with doctor’s appointments as 1/2 vacation days so I could sleep in or get some errands done.

            Can I also suggest that you suggest to her that she NOT use up all her sick time for the extra long leave, but save a little for when she comes back? I was warned this by our HR – that people take every single sick/vacation day they have to extend maternity leave, and then when they come back to work they have no reserves if they or baby get sick, or need to go to routine pediatrician’s appointments, etc etc, and wind up being officially disciplined under the absentee policy when they have to miss days. I came back 1 week earlier than I officially “had” to, and I definitely wound up using all 5 of those saved days.

            1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

              Yes – I did succeed in getting her to agree to leave a week (she’ll accumulate more pretty quickly once she’s back) because (a) it’s insane to think that she won’t need any days off in the first few months back and (b) i think it will reduce her stress level to know that she can take a day off when she’s back. The doctor’s appointments are no big deal – we don’t worry about someone being out for an hour or two (on the assumption that they’ve stayed late plenty of times in the past).

    2. Case of the Mondays*

      I would also suggest instructing her to step out anytime the tears are coming on and not to come back into the meeting until they stop. If it happens again, she needs to repeat. I also think she should be discussing this with her doctor but I don’t know if you can be the one to say that.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        The challenge here is that she’s leading a lot of these meetings. Due to location issues, there’s not really anyone else who can do this for the next several months. I need her to be able to do the basic and essential parts of her job, which includes not leaving meeting for a 1/2 hour or more on a regular basis.

        1. misspiggy*

          In the UK, she could get signed off on sick leave by her doctor, and take separate, protected maternity leave after giving birth. As you don’t have that option, but the issue is likely linked to her pregnancy and not one she can do much about, what can be done to mitigate the effects of this temporary disability? Can more discussions and decisions be conducted over email or IM, for example?

  37. Writing Samples*

    So I recently moved to a new state for my spouse’s job (and I am very happy to have moved) but now I’m on the job hunt. A lot of legal jobs want writing samples. I spent the past few years as a criminal prosecutor, with most of my work being oral advocacy – in other words, I don’t have any recent 5-10 page samples to offer. Prior to being a prosecutor, I did some civil litigation work, and I have a writing sample I could use from then. Does it cause any concern, though, that my sample is about 6 years old? I could alternately draft up a new sample of writing based on a fake fact scenario, but is that cheesy? Which would you all recommend?

    1. LMW*

      I’ve never worked in the legal field, so I can’t speak to that specifically. But I’ve never minded a “fake” sample. In fact, one of the best writers I ever worked with crafted a writing sample specifically to speak to my industry and our customers. It was obviously unpublished, but it showed how her experience could be adapted to our needs.

    2. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

      I don’t have any direct experience in this area, but there could be a lot of potential in writing up something new. It may well depend on the culture of the place you’re interviewing with, but a sample based on a recent, relevant scenario (“ripped from the headlines”, as they say on teevee) might even make you stand out as a candidate.

    3. wonkette*

      I’m a lawyer like you and I think it’s convention to send a writing sample that you wrote for work. I’ve interviewed for jobs that ask for a simulated writing sample, but they usually give you a hypothetical beforehand I wouldn’t worry that your writing sample is a little dated.

    4. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      Either spruce up the six years old one, or, if you feel like it’s far too outdated, maybe draft a memo of law in support of something that you argued orally in your last job? That way you’d be using details from a real prior case, so it’d be easy to talk about in interviews, and also wouldn’t seem as weird/unusual as a fake scenario sample.

  38. De Minimis*

    Never been so eager for an open thread before! Been waiting all morning for it.

    I need advice…my wife did end up getting offered the job at her old employer, and we talked it over and decided she should take it. It’s just too good an opportunity to pass up. Unfortunately we have a house here we’ll need to sell [don’t want to rent it unless there’s just no other option, it would require additional investment and we’d really just leave without having any further complications here.]

    We’d rather not be separated again, but we decided it might be best if I remain behind until the house sells. Hard to say what will happen with that, we had two houses in our general area sell pretty fast so the market may be pretty active.

    Anyway, trying to figure out the timing of what to say to my boss. Finding a replacement will be a long difficult process, and I don’t know if there’s any way to minimize bad feelings. No one here is equipped to take on my duties so they will have to come up with some other solution until a replacement can be found, and even then they may have a tough time–it took me a couple of years to more or less learn this position and that was only because I had an experienced co-worker to train me…I was hired as her replacement.

    I can certainly give at least a month notice, and can tell them that I could also stay longer until the house sold. But I don’t think I can really get moving on a job search [and I will need to find one ASAP] until I’ve moved to the new location.

    Hard to know what to do….friends and family have advised I remain behind until it sold, and not to tell anyone at work until later on, but I know if I tell them sooner it could help them reduce the effects of my absence.

    Anyway, anyone have any thoughts? I had actually considered telling our CEO today but I’m pretty busy so I may not have time….

    1. De Minimis*

      BTW, my main reason for staying is just to keep my income as long as possible, and also to try and leave on good terms.

      1. Malissa*

        Tell them now. They’ll appreciate the notice. Also keep looking for a job. Once you have an address in the new town it won’t be that hard. (How far away is it?) Also being open about the upcoming move will allow you to job search better. That is unless you have a crazy boss who will find a reason to get you out sooner. But from what I remember of your situation, that isn’t a factor for you. Also start writing down all the processes in your job. Make a manual, this is the single best thing for a transition.

        1. De Minimis*

          It’s cross country. The area we’re moving to has a lot of jobs, but also a lot of people.

          Been working on a manual for a while now, and trying to organize things here. I don’t think they will have a crazy reaction [they’d be screwing themselves by doing that, and also I think I may have some kind of rights at this point where they couldn’t just fire me immediately…and I also just don’t think they would operate that way.]

          Think at the very least I will tell them Monday. My immediate supervisor is out today, but the CEO is here and the three of us work closely together.

    2. Artemesia*

      When I retired and we wanted to move to a new city we sold our house rather quickly in a so-so market by pricing it for probably less than we might have gotten if we had had it on the market for 6 mos. Think about how much you are willing to take for the house in order to move quickly and go there. there is a lot to be said for getting your new life off to a running start.

    3. A.K.*

      Is it a job you can do remotely? If that is possible, even short term, you could say that you’ll stay in person until the house sells, and then remotely after that for as long as that is a good arrangement for everyone. This would allow you to retain your income while job searching in the new city and also give them more time for the transition.

      1. De Minimis*

        In theory some of it could be done remotely, but a lot of it just wouldn’t be practical. I have to sign off on requisitions from different departments, and it would be a pain to scan things back and forth…also we usually meet in person to put together the various monthly reports and I don’t think that could be done well remotely.
        It’s a federal job so there are also probably a lot of other issues with doing that remotely, and I imagine they would prefer to just pull the band-aid off and maybe have someone from the regional office or one of the other facilities fill in until a replacement could be found.

        1. De Minimis*

          I finally have some free time, but am inclined to maybe wait until Monday. Give me some time to think about it this weekend. We’ll see, though I wouldn’t be surprised if I decided to say something on the spur of the moment.

    4. The IT Manager*

      Tell them now or perhaps Monday because given it’s a federal job and there’s no backup, it’s in their best interest to keep you on as long as possible (unless you suspect something different).

      Let them put the job notice on USAjobs and get a start on the hiring process before you actually depart.

      1. De Minimis*

        Yes, that’s the one….the stepchild of HHS!

        Pretty sure they would work with me, but my main issue is I’m short of leave and if I am going to stay behind for a while I would need more leave than I currently have to do our move. I’m a little afraid they will just say,”Eh, tough toenails…” I guess if that happened I might just give a month’s notice and that would be that. Not afraid of them doing anything like trying to fire me, but more that they would become difficult during my remaining time here. I’d like to think they wouldn’t hurt me on the reference front, but I know I’ve torpedoed things for them–I don’t think they were expecting to stay here the next 20 years or anything like that but they probably assumed I would be here maybe 4-5 years [instead of two and a half…]

        It’s probably too much of a bomb to drop less than an hour before time to go home, so I guess I’ll just wait till Monday. Had a project that took most of the day.

  39. Work Journaling?*

    Lately I’ve been feeling like I’m doing nothing at work, so I’ve been making lists of tasks for myself or writing down what I’ve done all day AFTER work to remind myself that I am doing work. Does anybody have any advice or techniques for this? Does anybody else do this? I think it should be useful when (if) I need to apply for a new job, too. I can just flip through this and know what I’ve been working on for however long.

    1. GOG11*

      I keep a work journal in order to keep track of what I’m doing (because if I don’t write it down it didn’t exist). This is really helpful in keeping me from forgetting things, reminding me of how long things took (if I didn’t finish, I put an arrow rather than just crossing it out and I move it to a later appropriate date) and of what I do on a day to day basis.

      I also highlight any information I rarely use but might need to remember later on (ie what was the ID number for org for the work order system because my browser did something weird? What’s the name of the person who I see once a month if I arrive early/they arrive late who cleans the building?). If it makes sense to do so, I move the information into a more permanent home when I update my process guides.

    2. KMC*

      I keep an ongoing list, and on days where I get a lot of interruptions/new tasks, I will add them to it. That way on days when I wonder what I accomplished at work, I have a record.

      It also gives me the opportunity to write down things like Spoke to blah-blah, or Left message for blah, and then I know when to follow up. I’ve gone back in my notebooks as far as a year to track down conversations.

    3. another IT manager*

      Not quite the same thing, but I open an email draft every week and note down the big/exciting/interesting things that I do that week. It sits there and when I have five minutes, or when I’ve just finished something, I’ll add a bullet point. I send it out to my stakeholders just before I leave on Friday. Every email has the same subject, so it’s easy to search my sent items and pull up the collection (I did this the other day for my annual review, actually). I find that it’s really helpful to remind me what I’ve been doing, and it lets folks who may not have seen me that week (I work out of multiple locations) know that I haven’t just been sitting and surfing the internet all week.

      I think the really useful thing for me was just having it open in draft ALL THE TIME. When I tried editing it at the end of the day, or the end of the week, it was less helpful, just because I’d forget stuff. I still forget stuff, but now I have proof that it happened.

    1. GOG11*

      I have a couple of funny photos that I found on the internet. They are all work appropriate and two of the three are high brow grammar humor so I don’t know if anyone else even cares to read them, but they make me smile.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      I have hideous grey cubicle walls and just bought two pretty big posters to hang up on the biggest wall. Just plain abstract colorful landscapes; pretty boring but they brighten up the area.

    4. hildi*

      I put up some bright fabric with t-pins. It’s been on my wall forever and really brightens it up. I’ll see if I can somehow link a photo here.

      1. hildi*

        ugh – can someone please tell me that website that people use to download a photo and it’s not really connected to any personal account?? I know that’s not helpful – it’s a short, catchy name. Not Tumblr or Bitly…..dang, I’ve seen it here before and can’t remember!!

          1. hildi*

            haha, I totally wasn’t clear what I was asking!!! thanks though :) I was thinking a while back people were sharing photos of their workspace and they were doing it on a site that was all black on its background and it seemed like a somewhat anonymous place to dump your photos to share with others. UGH. I’m probably not being clear – but the background was all black, I remember that.

            2. Anonsie*

              Imgur! I freaking love Imgur* and I both dump all my photos in there privately and browse around for all the dumbfunny stuff people put up publicly.

              *Except for the weirdly high proportion of “woe is the plight of the man in a woman’s world” stuff that people submit, but I try to ignore it so as to keep my blood pressure from rising.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                I don’t even look–I just moved there because Photobucket had got insanely bad. Mostly I upload pictures of food and funny screenshots from whatever I’m watching. #imsoboring

    6. Jennifer*

      I take old calendars and post the pictures from them. My cube is decorated in Hawaiian islands.

    7. Windchime*

      I lined my cube with bright, cheery fabric. Our cube walls were recycled from the previous owner and mine were kind of mismatched and tired, so this was a way to cover that up and make it look a little more fun. Other people have lined sections of their cube with fun wrapping paper. That seems a little too crinkly for me.

  41. SouthernBelle*

    I think I see a light at the end of this long long tunnel…..

    So…. I applied for a position that seems very much in line with my background, personal values, etc. I’m currently in the midst of the interview process and it’s been a slow road; we’re already almost 2 months in and there’s at least a month more to go before they feel they’ll be able to offer and get someone in the role. In the meantime, a recruiter that I’ve worked with in the past contacted me about a position that is equally as appealing in regards to my background; but this position is at the same company as the one that I’m currently in the interview process for. In actuality, they’re in the same department, but focus on different aspects of that department. Well, the recruiter submitted me for the position last week, contacted me for an onsite interview this week, I interviewed and should hear back about the outcome as soon as today (provided the other applicants all kept their interviews – I was one of 4).

    Both positions are great and I’d be excited for either of them. The first position is a direct-hire position so of course we’re talking full benefits and a sense of stability (which is very important to me given these LONG months of unemployment and project work). The second position is a year-long contract, no benefits, no stability, but a foot in the door and an opportunity to gain some leverage in securing a direct-hire position. I’m crossing my fingers for good news today!

  42. Jessica*

    I’m starting grad school tomorrow to get my MBA. I went out to visit the school about six months ago for a meet and greet sort of weekend and met quite a few professors semi-socially. Meaning, they introduced themselves by their first names at receptions. They were trying to woo students to come there. Now that I’m starting classes, have things changed? Should I still refer to them with how they introduced themselves in correspondence or when I see them again?

    Also, just curious, if you’re an older grad student, does it ever feel weird to call someone Professor So-and-So or Mr./Ms./Mrs. So-and So? I think Dr. is not strange, but I’ve always wondered that and would like to know if anyone has experienced weirdness from it. I am wondering mostly about executive MBA types, since there are quite a few people with high level positions doing this program. I assume it’s different in different fields too

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I almost always call people by their first names unless they ask me to do otherwise. Especially if they are anywhere near my age. As an executive and someone with a leadership position in the community, I felt incredibly awkward calling my grad school professors “Dr. So and So” – especially because most of them were my age for younger. I occasionally avoided calling them anything, but mostly just called them by their first names, except for a few who were much older (past average retirement age) and very formal.

    2. Xarcady*

      When I was in grad school, most of us tended to address professors formally the first time, “Dr. Soandso.” Which was usually met with, “Call me Bobbette.”

      In general, I think it is better to err on the slightly more formal side and use a title and last name the first time you address someone. Better to be told, “”Oh, please call me Sam,” then get hit with a frosty, “That’s Dr. Grimm to you!”

      1. Jessica*

        I hope I haven’t done this already. I should have included this in my original question, but I met Professor MiddleName who introduced himself as MiddleName at a reception. I even mentioned it then because he gave me a card that said “A. MiddleName LastName” to which I immediately said, “Oh, I see you prefer to be called by your middle name?” and he said yes. But aside from some chitchat, that was really the extent of our interaction because the reception was ending; doubt he would remember me. Six months later, he is assigned as our coach for our case study this week. I reached out immediately, because I was excited, and used his first name in the correspondence. I sent the email and then thought, “Crap! That was presumptuous of me!” Hope he’s not irked. I did mention that we had met before, at least. As a working adult, I am almost always on a first name basis with people, but this IS academia.

        1. Jessica*

          Sorry, I should have said used his middle name in correspondence. I don’t even know his first name.

          1. Jessica*

            Ahhh, THANK YOU for making me not feel like such an ass. I am honestly having a weird adjustment phase of trying to figure out how to interact in school again.

      2. fposte*

        Agreed; there’s also the risk that they don’t correct you, because that really is awkward, but take it slightly amiss.

    3. IrishGirl*

      Definitely depends on the culture of the institution. I’ve been to two different universities; the first was very formal to the point where a point was made that if we needed to email the lecturers to be mindful of their proper title; Joe Bloggs was to be addressed as Dr Bloggs, not as Joe. In contrast my second uni is much more relaxed, to the point where it’s seen as slightly odd to use titles even initially.

      1. Jessica*

        Yes, I’ve heard that some people feel like they’ve worked hard enough to earn that title, so they expect to be addressed as such. To each their own, but I’m uncomfortable with titles in general. I hate being called miss or ma’am in stores. And also, it feels a little weird to me now that I’m out of undergrad. I always feel like, “Hey, I’m an adult with a real job too!” Well, not now… I’m unemployed. But I’ve had jobs!

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Not really–I just call them whatever they prefer to be called. I found that most of my instructors who were younger than I was preferred their first names anyway–“Everybody call me Bob.” I would just say Mr. or Dr. to start and if they went by Bob, they corrected it quickly.

  43. Summer Intern Interviewer*

    Last year’s Summer Intern program at my company – an internationally renowned maker of teapots for business purposes – went over so well that we’re doing again this year, but bigger and better. I am once again involved, and I like it a lot. We’re just getting to the part where we’ll be looking through resumes and conducting telephone interviews of promising candidates.

    I like to think I’m okay at this kind of interviewing, but some recent AAM columns have touched on interviewing, and many commentators have related stories both good and bad, from both sides of the conversation, and I can plainly see that there is a whole lot more I could learn about conducting effective interviews and improving my technique. Especially of junior and senior year college students in the STEM professsions.

    So: any words of advice or wisdom for me on interviewing Summer Intern candidates?

    1. jamlady*

      Just some thoughts:

      My favorite questions for science-field undergrad internships were the ones that made me think hard about how the internship would actually help me for the future. Now these are college students, so don’t expect perfect answers, but hopefully they’ll have some idea about how the specific internship will help the future. I liked questions that brought up the fact that there were many options for the future and that you needn’t pigeon-hole yourself to the industry of the internship or feel like you shouldn’t have the internship because your goals aren’t perfectly aligned. In contrast…

      My least favorite as an undergrad were things like “do you plan on furthering your education” or “do you plan on going into [insert super specific industry here]”. First of all, when you’re in college, you may have no idea what you really want and you may just say things you think they want to hear. Second of all, their future education (unless vital for the path they’re taking) is irrelevant to whether or not the internship will be helpful for their future. Third, asking questions where they feel like they somehow SHOULD be going into the specific industry severely stunts their ability to see how they can mold these potentially obtained job skills to other areas.

      My biggest thing was interviewers expecting me to know the exact path I was going to take. Having a good head on one’s shoulder’s is fine, but these questions feel like pigeon-holing someone’s skills/abilities/future. I got married the same week I graduated and ended up moving around for the next so many years and putting a lot on hold. I had no plans for that initially and it took perhaps a little longer than I would have liked to decide for myself that yes, I did want to pursue an MA (for me) but that no, a PhD wasn’t in the cards yet.

      It’s definitely important for the candidates to think about the future and for you to know that they are, but I think you can tell more about the type of person they are by leaving questions a little more open-ended. Just my experience!

      1. Summer Intern Interviewer*

        Thank you, jamlady. I read you loud and clear on this. These intern positions are, in fact, a form of recruiting: a number of last year’s interns will be returning as full-time employees this summer. So these internships are kind of a two-way review: we evaluate the interns, while the interns evaluate us. And one thing I like about my company – and it’s something I stress to intern candidates – is that we offer a huge range of opportunities and career paths.

        So I appreciate what you’re saying, and I’ll make it a point to avoid asking these people to pigeonhole themselves into a category so early on in their careers, and attempt to keep things open-ended and flexible.

        1. jamlady*

          I love the words “wide range of opportunities” and “broaden your skill set” in interviews haha especially during my internship years. If you said it and explained in some detail, I was sold!

  44. GOG11*

    I have been looking for the equivalent of adulting information about office culture and administrative tasks (adulting in the sense that these are things everyone just seems to know except for me and I attribute it to my lack of experience in certain areas) and I came across kickassadmin, but the site is no longer active. I saw some stuff on Pinterest that looked AMAZING, but the materials link to the site which then redirects to an error.

    Does anyone know if the site got a new home? Any suggestions for other sites? I have found a blog called musings of a high level executive assistant, and it’s great, but I’ve spent a few days searching and this is the only one with the tone and type of information I’m looking for.

    1. GOG11*

      Here’s an example of the sort of stuff I have been searching for. In this post, the blog’s author discusses how to go about reserving a table at a very exclusive restaurant. There’s the formally announced way of doing this and then there’s the this is how things really get done way of doing things. I’d love more sources that provide information of the latter sort.

      http://musingsofahighlevelexecutiveassistant.blogspot.com/2014/04/how-to-book-table-at-french-laundry.html

    2. Jem*

      I’d be interested in seeing something like this too. There’s not a lot on the web for admin assistants that isn’t totally spammy. I’d love a blog with organization tips, how to deal with various situations, etc.

      2. GOG11*

        I’m hoping others will chime in with resources as the day goes on, but I’m also curious about where you and Oh Anon are currently turning when you have questions or want to improve processes or need ideas. Are there resources you have that you’ve already exhausted? Do you seek out other admin colleagues or a mentor figure in your life?

        A huge resource for me is Ask a Manager and I’ve joined some groups on LinkedIn, but they don’t quite get at what I’m looking for. Sometimes I call one of my colleagues, but I try to figure things out on my own and I only call as a last resort. I’ve learned some things through trial and error because there isn’t anyone/anything to turn to, but I’d really prefer not to make too many errors along the way.

        1. Oh anon*

          As far as where I turn with questions? It depends on the question. If it’s how to do something, I figure it out myself, google it, ask whoever in the office (or whoever I know) that has the most experience in whatever it is. As for improving processes, I usually am able to be pretty efficient in how I do things, but I’ve also had conversations with my boss about this is how I do X & it’s taking too long, what do you think? I use AAM more for job hunting tips and how to handle certain odd or difficult situations.

  45. Tamzin*

    I have questiona that address multiple issues dealing with bad management and a termination-without-warning, and how it is affecting my self-esteem and wondering where I should go from here.

    I was hired to be a jill of all trades at a small company, and I was there for 10 days before I was terminated. In those 10 days I performed excellently (in terms of sales numbers and initiative): I learned the ropes immediately and made money and operational progress right off the bat; responded positively to all feedback and adapted to it since after all, I was still training and picking up the vibe of the place; I pulled off a kind of assignment I had never done before and that was EXTREMELY important to the success of the business. (I don’t know why the owner assigned me, a novice, to this task, but either that speaks of her faith in me OR her poor management skills, because helloooo — what if I had royally screwed up??)

    The day after this assignment (day 10 of my employment, mind you), I was terminated. When I inquired as to why, the owner who hired me would not make eye contact with me (she wasn’t making eye contact with me all day and I was totally wigged out) and her business partner immediately said, “We don’t legally need to tell you, this is an at-will employment state.” I incredulously stared at them and started to cry because well, this was my dream position and I was hired to bring growth to the company (which I was already doing — and remember, I had been there 10 days at this point and was still training so I was utterly confused). I told them that I Know That This Is An At-Will State, I’m not “new” to being an employee, but um, I’ve never been fired in my life and I am beyond shocked and I would really like some feedback.

    I was told, hesitantly, that I “was not performing as expected”, which is complete bullshit. How, in 10 days, could an assessment like that be made, especially since I hadn’t stolen anything, punched anyone, broken any items, crapped on the sales floor, or… or whatever might reasonably get someone fired without warning.

    Now, I believe that the company is suffering from a financial setback and that I am a casualty of that. I think that they are inexperienced, young, and chose to fire a 15-year veteran of the business because they panicked and needed to find a way to save money. Of course, they didn’t think to talk to me about this or even to consider bringing me down to part time (when I suggested this as a last-ditch effort to open a conversation about this whole sh*tshow, the owner and her partner looked at each other like “oh, is that an option?” but gave me no verbal response whatsoever except blank stares.)

    So there is the context. On with my questions:

    1. Will I ever be able to find a reason for this termination? I want it not just for personal satisfaction, since I *really* want to know if I had bad habits that I need to be aware of… that might be terminable offenses for me in future positions, but I want to hear from their own mouths exactly WTF they were thinking! I want them to know that this has ruined me, not just in terms of planning for my future, but in terms of how I am now financially screwed and scrambling to find another job while suffering from depression as a result of this incident.

    2. Additionally, is there a way to list the enormous progress I made for this company on my resume? I am not embellishing when I say that I accomplished a LOT in 10 days. However, listing a two-week job on a resume isn’t too great. But it is a prestigious company to People In The Know and, well, I feel as though I should have something to show for my brief, traumatic, but professionally fulfilling foray into The Twilight Zone.

    3. If anyone here has been fired without warning, and without a proper exit interview or explanation, can you advise me on how to emotionally cope with this? When I use the word “traumatic” to describe how this all feels, I’m being quite serious: I saw myself making a home for myself there, and when I was fired for no discernible or justifiable reason (if it was financial, why didn’t they say that!?!), I felt as though I was essentially being kicked out of an industry I have been in for half of my life. I feel unwanted, I feel as though the reason might secretly be something absurd like “I’m not pretty enough” or “Maybe I *should* have learned to read minds because duh, then I wouldn’t have messed up like I apparently did..?!?”

    If you can, please let me know how to get through this bizarre experience and come out the other end with a healthy outlook on, well, my entire mental well-being and future employment options.

    Thank you so much, dear readers.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      1. Maybe you could email them and express what you wrote here?
      2. I wouldn’t – I believe you, but it sounds far-fetched that you could accomplish that much in only 10 days (and would raise the question as to why you were let go anyway). Plus, if you’re a high performer, which you sound like, I assume you have similarly significant accomplishments at other jobs?

    2. TCO*

      You just need to move on from this experience. What I mean by that is accept that you’re never going to find out why you were fired–they clearly don’t want to tell you, and it probably wasn’t anything you did wrong. If they handled your first two weeks that poorly, consider it a bullet dodged that you didn’t stay longer.

      I would never put this two-week job on your resume. The name might be prestigious, but you’ll have to admit that you were fired after two weeks. There is no way that will ever reflect upon you positively, no matter how much it wasn’t your fault.

      I know it’ s easier said than done, but don’t let this situation make you doubt your talents, aspirations, or industry. You have a track record of many, many successful years in this field. One bad boss doesn’t wipe all of that out. Good luck on your job search!

    3. fposte*

      Wow, that’s really upsetting; I’m sorry.

      However: “Will I ever be able to find a reason for this termination? ” Practically speaking, almost certainly not. There are some states where they’re supposed to provide this information if you submit a written request–you can Google to find out if you’re in one–but I doubt that what they’d say would be any more satisfying to you. It’s basically a dating scenario, where after two dates it just didn’t work out for the other person after all.

      Unfortunately, I don’t think that you’re going to be able to frame your progress in two weeks in any way that outweighs the “terminated after two weeks” fact; progress that doesn’t please the employer is tough to sell even at the best of times. I also think that in the long run you’re better off letting this job go mentally, period, rather than keeping it on your resume to remind you of something painful.

      And I’d say be kind to yourself right now, and do as much socializing and exercising as you can to keep your mind on an even keel. This is a tough one to weather, but you’ll get past it and be fine.

    4. Steve G*

      So it is a prestigious company, but they can’t even handle their own cash flow? I’d love specifics of that! Did you at least give them a low rating on glassdoor to warn others against working there?

      1. Kerry (Like the County In Ireland)*

        This is like dating a guy for 2 weeks, getting really attached, and then being upset when he turns out to be married. It’s not you, it’s them.

        1. Tamzin*

          Yes! If you read my response to Alison downthread I said that it totally felt like a whirlwind romance that just… violently ended. But it’s almost worse than a lover being married, because this situation regards peoples’ professional reputations, livelihoods, careers, etc. It’s just such a cluster.

          Thanks to all of you for the sympathy and empathy. Boy did I need it. What I am learning from this experience is that I got really screwed and that I shouldn’t blame myself. I am usually pretty good about taking responsibility for bad professional behavior — and that’s why I try to make it rare — so this incident has me befuddled because I can’t think of anything I can blame myself for except maybe my looks? I’m not a supermodel. Not ugly, but not Gisele Bundchen either. Maybe I didn’t say “Hello” the right way to someone? Oy vey, what torture. But thank you again EVERYONE for your words.

          1. fposte*

            I really think you need to let go of the looks thing, for both sanity and logic. Unless you had drastic surgery between your application and your hire, you look how they expected you to look. It wasn’t a problem. I think Alison’s right that it was likely a cultural fit that they weren’t able to anticipate in advance and that is tough to articulate–maybe your change pace was too fast for them or something. And the thing about cultural fit is it really is like dating, in that changing yourself to fit would only make you both unhappier. So who you are is doubtless awesome for any number of organizations out there and that will be your next port of call.

            And cut your looks a break–they weren’t at fault here, and they deserve for you to think better of them :-).

    5. Elizabeth West*

      1. Not likely. I think you need to move on. These people sound very unprofessional. They may never respond to your solicitation for a reason, and to use the dating analogy, it makes you look like a desperate ex.

      2. Leave it off your resume entirely. It wasn’t a long enough tenure to include.

      3. It sucks–I’ve been through this. You have to feel what you feel, just like with a breakup. You’re upset right now, and soon you’ll be angry, and finally, you’ll be like, “Fine, I’m better off without those turkeys.” If you have a trusted friend with whom you can vent, I’d do that. I’d also leave that venting off Facebook and the like, since you’re now job hunting again.

    6. BRR*

      1) You will probably never find out. I would try asking them why so that you can better yourself. Point out that you’re not going to argue the termination because that’s something that would stop them from letting you know why.

      2) No. I would consider leaving it off your resume too. Just being honest, as a hiring manager I wouldn’t believe you if you said in 10 days you had a huge measurable impact on the company even if you could prove it.

      3) I was fired after only receiving praise. Time has helped but I’m still not over it. My manager (who wasn’t the one who made the decision) helped a lot by calling them all idiots and presented facts about how much they are idiots.

      Also they suck, majorly. I would at least leave a review of them on glassdoor to try and warn others.

      1. Tamzin*

        They’re not a big enough firm to have a Glassdoor. The owner wasn’t even on LinkedIn. It’s popular and celebrities love it but they like to fly under the radar. That’s why I can’t find out if the owners regularly do these stealth “trials” for people like me for two weeks and impulsively fire them at the first sign of something that gives them mere pause. I wish I could know if she had a track record of doing this, then perhaps I wouldn’t be putting some of the blame on myself. A large part of me thinks that I maybe I did do something ~HORRIBLE~ but I will never know what it is, since this whole situation was handled by amateurs and capricious fools.

        In any case, I would like to make her feel super bad by telling her that I’m having to look into sex work in order to make my rent. Sigh. I wish I was kidding.

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You’ll probably never know for sure, but I wonder if it could have been culture fit? Especially at a small company, culture fit is so important, and that’s something where they could conceivably realize early on that it just wasn’t the right match. They could even be right about it, although who knows (although certainly the way they handled it wasn’t). Anyway, maybe something to consider, if it’s driving you crazy not knowing?

      1. MsM*

        I’m also wondering if there was some behind the scenes drama about what you’d been brought in to do – like, maybe not everyone was happy with you totally revamping operations, or some major stakeholder didn’t feel you’d pulled off the big assignment as successfully as you think you did – and for whatever reason they felt they needed to side with the complainers rather than have a discussion about it. Which stinks, but is probably a good reason not to go overboard in promoting what you accomplished for them, since you can’t know what they’ll say in any references.

        1. Tamzin*

          I didn’t revamp operations. I didn’t have time to do that. I think it is more likely that a stakeholder didn’t like my face or whatever, but… the buck should have stopped with my boss. My boss shouldn’t have put me in charge of such a big assignment on day 8 of my job if she thought it might upset a stakeholder.

          In other words, yes. Yes. I have thought about all of this. I intellectually know that I will never figure out precisely what happened but the idea that it could be something superficial like “the manager was a terrible manager and that’s what I got fired” really upsets me… mostly because I’m a former manager and if one of my employees messed up, they’d get a conversation and a warning and not a termination-without-warning.

      2. Tamzin*

        I imagine that “culture fit” might have been some of it, but I was getting along so well with my coworkers, speedily getting things done, and I’m sort of exactly like everyone else there. I felt as though I fit in instantly.

        Also, the owner (who couldn’t look me in the eye as her partner fired me), started giving me presents and things and buying me lunch day after day. She confided in me and trusted me with sensitive information.

        The whole thing in retrospect seems like a really amazing romance that for reasons I’ll never know just crashed and burned, and I think that “culture fit” is too simple an answer, since my interview for the job was a lovely 3 HOUR conversation with the team. They already knew who I was, you know?

        I bet some investor or something just didn’t like my face or something absurd like that and because the owner is weak and in need of money decided to terminate me instead of standing up for an otherwise good (and still learning!) employee.

        I forgot to mention that she started tearing up when I started tearing up, and when I wished her and the company well and that her products are lovely and will be a great success, she whimpered and cried a little.

        I MEAN REALLY. I can’t make this stuff up.

        I understand I can’t put my 10 days there on my resume (I merely wondered if there was perhaps some way to sneak in my new skill sets that I learned, is all), and that I will never really know, but the whole two weeks were sooooooooo bizarre that I am in shock. Still. I feel like I was stung by a jellyfish or something, it’s that insane a psychological sensation I’m feeling right now. As far as I knew, things were going swimmingly, and instead of communicating to me whatever “quirks” I should improve on (though I reiterate that in 10 days there really wasn’t much time to be quirky; I was quiet and did my work to the best of my ability), I got shitcanned.

        I wish it were easy for me to say “good riddance” but again, this was a very, very good opportunity for me that vanished in a mysterious puff of smoke so I am so frustrated. SO frustrated. I’ll get over it, but damn if this doesn’t sting.

    8. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

      That seems like really terrible behavior on the part of the ex-employer.

      Could you apply for unemployment? If the company protests it, you might get some visibility into why they terminated you?

      Or – is there anyone at the place that you could call and ask “what happened?”

      I totally understand wanting to know “what happened?” – but you may have to settle for a high level explanation like “they’re a bunch of huge flaming assholes”.

    9. puddin*

      1. Nope – but do note that the reason stated was not “performing as expected” which is different than under-performing (maybe). If that phrasing was used on purpose, it could be the cultural fit was not there for management.
      2. Nope – if you are incredulous at how they can assess you with a poor grade at 10 days, the average hiring manager will be just as incredulous to assess you with a high grade based only on a resume for a job that lasted 10 days. I would just leave it off the resume altogether.
      3. Do things that you are good at and that you enjoy. Not everyone will recognize your worth in life; this one of those times.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I probably mentioned this earlier, but your situation brings it flooding back to me.
      I had a job that was sooo very ME. I loved this job. I knew it was going to be the best job I ever had in my life.
      And the bosses did not notice me. Well, they knew my name and all that. But when opportunities came along, I some how got over looked.
      I was crushed- like when your dog gets hit by a car and you can’t stop crying on the inside- that kind of crushed
      And I got pretty angry also. It’s normal to have a mixed bag of emotions and that is okay.
      I tried working a few more years and then gave up. When I made the decision to give up I had a 9 week migraine. I have never had a headache like this in my life. I could barely hold my head up because of the pain.
      What I learned:
      1) I created this because I got too invested in the job. I wasn’t just connected to the job – it was woven into me. I made myself vulnerable for this fall. With subsequent jobs, I worked on not getting emotionally invested in the job.
      2) Things happen for a reason. It took decades for me to find out all the reasons. The place had toxic chemicals that were making me sick. I did not even realize how sick the chemicals were making me. I was oblivious. Additionally, I ran into a former coworker years after I left. She let me know there was stuff going on at that job that was not kosher at all- stuff like cooking the books. I found out other reasons why it was good that I was out of there. But it took a very long time for me to find out.
      3) Subsequent jobs have been less demanding and I have gotten more recognition that I did at that job. Matter of fact, I have never worked as hard as I did at that job. Which opened my eyes to subjects like scope creep. That is where you take on this one thing and the next thing you know it has morphed into ten things. Meanwhile you are still getting the same rate of pay.
      What I thought of as “fun” was actually crazy, off-off-wall types of demands on me. I never occurred to me at the time that the expectations were unrealistic.
      4) I was right. I have never loved a job the way I did that one. But I no longer want to.

      You put your heart and soul into this. I am confident in saying that something was going on behind the scenes that you don’t want to be involved in. If you had stayed you would have found yourself caught up in something.
      Over the years, I have thought of things that I did at that job that I could have handled better. I thought of things that I handled very poorly and did not realize. This may happen to you, too. Other jobs will show you things that you could have applied to this job. That is okay, too. We are supposed to learn and grow.
      Lacking a logical explanation for your dismissal, it’s pretty normal for the human mind to wander around and conjure up explanations such as “not pretty enough”. Tell your wandering mind that is BS. You would not talk to a friend like that. This is not the end of the world. It’s two weeks out of your life- that is all it is. These people are not worth the energy you are giving them now.

  46. Renegade Rose*

    I found out on Tuesday that I’m losing my job due to the insurmountable financial challenges my organization is facing. It really sucks. We keep getting rude calls and emails from people about it as well. The press is being far kinder to us than our own constituents which I have never seen before. I get that people are upset; I just don’t like being yelled at about something that isn’t my fault and wasn’t my decision.

    1. GOG11*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this. Whatever these people are saying, know that they’re only calling or emailing you because they’ve found your information, not because you’ve personally done something to warrant their criticisms.

    2. Vixen2013*

      I am so sorry; it is not your fault. As you said, people are upset and likely afraid, but I feel for you and your colleagues. People are reacting with emotion when they should be looking forward.

    3. Schuyler*

      I work in higher ed and have been wondering what I would do if my college closed. It’s been close to it–they almost closed in the 80’s, and I still wonder about how well they’re doing.

      If this is related to Sweet Briar, I can’t imagine what you’ve been having to deal with in the last few days–I’ve seen some postings from parents that have really been disheartening. I’m really sorry to hear about this and I’ve been thinking about you. If it’s not Sweet Briar related, I’m still very sorry to hear that you’re having to field angry and confused calls when you weren’t privy to any decision making (and if it’s anything like other places I know, the decision makers aren’t really making themselves available).

  47. Eugenie*

    For people with federal experience out there — would it be career suicide to leave a full-time permanent position for a two year term position (with option for two year extension)? The old position doesn’t pay great and requires residency in a really dumpy city, whereas the term position pays really well and would let me move to a great city.

    Thoughts?

    1. De Minimis*

      I’m under a different hiring authority, but do you have competitive status right now?

    2. Noelle*

      Can you give any more details? I currently work for Congress, which means that every two years I may be out of a job. But, the opportunity is worth it and I’ve always been able to find new positions. I would say that if you take the two year job, you NEED a plan for what you’ll do when it’s over. I worked for a member who was retiring, and we all knew when that was happening. I started looking for a new job a year out, because I didn’t know how long it would take to find something. Most of my coworkers stayed until the end, and most of them lost their jobs.

      1. De Minimis*

        I think in general, it’s usually not good to leave a permanent job for a term position, unless you have status to where you have priority for positions elsewhere, or if you have reinstatement eligibility. Otherwise it’s a gamble, but it may be worth it depending on the opportunity and the location. I’m about to give up a similar situation, but I’ve been looking and just don’t see an awful lot of federal job opportunities in the area I plan on moving to, so for me it’s not such a risk to leave.

      2. Eugenie*

        I’m currently working for county government, so I don’t have any kind of federal preference. There are a lot of local government agencies and independent non-profits in my area that do work in my field, they just don’t hire very often. This term position is the only thing that’s come up in over a year of looking that I think would actually be a good next step for my career, but I just don’t want the end to come there without being able to have anything lined up. On the other hand, the term position would be an awesome opportunity to build connections with all of those governmental and non-profit orgs that I might want to work at after the term is up — I wold actually be managing a lot of those partnerships.

        1. De Minimis*

          I think it’s probably worth doing then, just due to career progression and opportunity to make connections.

        2. DG*

          I am in county government as well and leaving to work for a national lab. The I am taking on was originally posted as term and is now full-time (it was re-posted during the application process). I would absolutely take the fed position even if it is term. Go in there, knock it out of the park and they’ll do their best to keep you there.

          County government can get so stale. I completely understand your need to branch out in order to move up.

          1. De Minimis*

            That’s what I’ve seen too, if they like someone they will try to find a way to keep them around.

            1. Eugenie*

              Thanks for all the support – interview is first thing on Monday so we’ll see how it goes! Any tips on things to ask to see if perm would potentially be in the cards for this position?

              1. OriginalEmma*

                You can ask if you’ll be eligible for non-competitive employment if you accept this job (i.e., you can apply as an internal candidate for future job postings?), or will you have to compete as an external candidate for future employment?

                1. GovHRO*

                  Really look closely at the announcement. Does the language say anything similar to “can be made permanent without further competition.” If so, it’s a great option. If not, you may not gain any status (status such as that of internal candidates or Veterans) and it can be difficult to get a permanent position.

  48. Dani X*

    I am trying to look for a new job and am working on my resume and cover letter but thought I would throw out my resume on indeed and dice since I heard that many recruiters go through there and contact people and I figured why not see while I get everything together. I have been networking too but since I have worked at the same company for 15 years I don’t have a very wide one and don’t think it will get me anywhere. But my resume has been out there for t least 3 weeks and I got no hits at all – not even scam ones! While I intend to apply to jobs directly I am worried that no contact is a sign that my resume sucks/is highlighting the wrong skills and I am worried about finding a new job. Should I be? I also heard that without a great network it is really hard to get a job and that doesn’t help me worrying.

    1. Anon Accountant*

      Have you checked this site’s archives on resumes and cover letters? There’s great advice in the archives. Companies have hiring freezes so it may take a while to get contacted for interviews unfortunately. Do you volunteer anywhere? Involved with your local professional groups? Chamber of Commerce? Rotary group? These are places you can make connections that may help you in your job search.

      1. Dani X*

        I have heard though that people will get contacted through Indeed and Dice – usually with things that are in no way what they want to do, but it at least shows there is an interest. Is it a big red flag when that doesn’t happen? I do volunteer, but at an animal shelter and my job search is for a programmer job. I will have to start looking into local professional groups – I am not currently a member. My employer is the number 1 company here so I do think I will need to commute or relocate for a job.

    2. dd*

      Your network doesn’t have to be limited to the people you met through work. I would recommend meeting people through common hobbies or interests, too. Meetup.com is a great way to do this. Don’t forget to network with the other people in your life, too.

    3. Sherm*

      I have my resume on those sites, and it’s pretty rare that I get contacted because of that. I think everyone should ask someone else’s feedback when it comes to resumes, but I wouldn’t assume it has problems just because you’re hearing crickets. (Unless, perhaps, your qualifications are very high demand.)

  49. Anon Accountant*

    Is Jamie or other IT folks on here that are up for a few questions? Will anyone in IT please post briefly about their job duties, background/training, etc.? I’m in the beginning career changes to an IT career from being a CPA and am overwhelmed at the vast careers in IT.

    I like software engineering or programming areas but am also looking at network careers too. Thank you!

    1. Dani X*

      I am a builder/release engineer. It’s kinda a software programming position just a little more specialized. The basics are that pretty much every product out there has a bunch of people writing code for it, and someone needs to take all that code and put it together into a cohesive unit that can then be tested and handed to a customer. That bringing together is what I do. I did computer science in college and then my first job was as a builder and I never left – I just got more specialized in it. (feel free to ask questions – not sure what info you are looking for)

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Your job sounds interesting. I’m looking for a brief overview of education (bacherlors in computer science, master’s degrees, etc.) or if they were self-taught and learned on their own to do programming, networking administration, etc. One programmer I talked to is almost completely self-taught

        I’m leaning towards software engineering as of now but am still exploring other IT career options.

        1. Dani X*

          My bachelor is in Science- but i was able to cobble together the entire Computer Science Degree and just have extra science courses. But schools generally don’t teach build work so most of the specialized info was on the job training. Self taught pretty much started on the job – if I had problems with something or needed learn a new skill I would do it on my own, but the basics were learned in college.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’m a qualified accountant and a self confessed SQL / database nerd.

      You might want to look at system analyst roles for accountancy software I worked for a consultancy firm for years looking after their time and billing software its a interesting and varied job that puts you at the heart of the business you’ll already know the accountancy side of things learn some SQL (check out w3school and vtc online) and you’ll be good to go.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Ooh great suggestions! I’ll have to check those out this weekend. I’m in the Pittsburgh/SW PA area in case anyone is interested. :)

        I remember reading about your career path and it sounds interesting. Thanks for the tips.

    3. The IT Manager*

      BS, Comp Sci (programming)
      MS, Information Technology

      I’m a project manager which was covered (a bit) in my IT masters program, but I got my foot in the door because I did a few years of PM-work in my varied military career.

      With your background, I recommend looking into business/functional analyst role or perhaps a SQA for accounting software as a foot in the door to an IT career.

      There was a disucssion in late Jan early Feb in an open thread (near the top I think) asking about school versus self-taught for IT. I think the concesus was self-taught was pretty rare now-a-days just because employers demand degrees even if the degrees don’t necessarily confer job skills.

  50. NatalieR*

    If you know you are going to get emotional during a tough conversation with your boss, is it better to power through, tears and all? Or to write it out and send in an email? The tears are anger/frustration if that makes a difference. TIA!

    1. GOG11*

      I was having difficulty with this before, though the source of the tears were health reasons. Regardless, it was very important to me to keep my reaction in check. A couple of suggestions were to give myself some space/time between the incident that causes the frustration (and leads to an emotional reaction) and my addressing the situation. This allowed me to have some perspective and to work through some things before addressing them. Is that a possibility for you?

      Another suggestion was to acknowledge that I may get emotional to myself which, in turn, would keep me from using my mental energy to fight the reaction. If it isn’t so built up and high stakes, maybe it would take some pressure off to keep it from happening and, in turn, keep it from happening. I’m not sure if this would work, though, as in my situation it would probably be seen as pretty okay if I cried a bit.

      If it is something that feels appropriate to put in email, that may be a way to facilitate the conversation and keep your reaction from your boss if it does happen. Certain conversations might not make sense to have over email, though. I hope others will have some good options for you.

    2. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Can you practice? Practice a LOT, until you’re comfortable enough with the words that they aren’t as impactful to you. Say the words out loud to another person as many times as it takes for the anger to leave and you can be calm about it–you’ll be on better footing for the rest of the conversation.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. When Elton John redid Candle in the Wind for Princess Diana’s funeral he played the song over and over until he could get through it without crying.

        Type out your major talking points. What is it that you want them to know? Don’t go crazy trying to write down every single thing. Just cover the main points.Then practice in front of the mirror. Get through the heavy stuff.

    3. LillianMcGee*

      I am a cryer. It’s completely outside of my control and it really only happens in very tense, serious conversations with authority figures (Awesome, right??) It got to the point where my boss knew before I did when the tears were coming and would ask me if I was going to cry. Which OF COURSE breaks the dam every time!

      I spoke to her outside of any tense conversation and said if she senses I’m going to cry to ignore it because that’s the only way I can keep myself composed. Maybe warn your boss ahead of time that this topic makes you emotional and to please excuse any uncontrollable waterworks.

    4. fposte*

      It may also help to bring a cup of water and drink from it; that action seems to divert the tear ducts sometimes.

    5. JMW*

      I’ve been there a few times! If you decide to power through ears and all:
      – plan your opening statement and main points ahead of time
      – practice it in your head and imagine the responses to it enough times that you lose some of your defensiveness over the subject… the more objective you can be, the less likely you will cry
      – say up front that you need to discuss something that is upsetting to you and you are not sure you can do it without crying, but you really want to do this in person
      – be prepared that the conversation may not go anything like you imagined, and if your upset gets beyond your comfort level, be prepared to ask to take a break or reschedule

      Good luck!

  51. Shell*

    Vent:

    Being a newbie, I’m bound to make mistakes. I’ve made some really, really stupid mistakes in the last three weeks, to the point where I want to dig a hole into the ground and hide. Okay, fine, I’m new, I get it, and people have been very gracious about my mistakes.

    But some of my mistakes were due to being given the wrong information, one such instance resulting in me looking an idiot twice in two weeks not only to internal folks, but external ones too. All because I was operating off of some mistaken assumptions from the mistaken information I was told. And I’m totally bitter about those. Yeah, it’s been rectified and information has been straightened out, but it doesn’t make me look good at all. And I already have imposter syndrome.

    Argh.

    1. Laurel Gray*

      Keep your head up Shell, sending positive vibes your way! This reminds me of the post today about people hoarding information or being reluctant to train people in their duties. Sorry this is happening to you and I hope it gets better!

    3. fposte*

      Remember also that that misinformation you got is quite likely those people’s equivalent of your mistakes, too.

      1. Shell*

        I…didn’t think of it that way. Wow. Thanks, fposte. I was trying to keep myself from going down the paranoid (and not very helpful) “someone is trying to sabotage you” train of thought (admittedly because my father was the victim of one such attempt when he was new in the workforce).

        This comment has cheered me up immensely. Thanks.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      There is a quiet strength that builds from confronting mistakes. We think we have lost a part of ourselves because of embarrassment, but we actually grow new parts of ourselves. Keep that in mind that in time you will find that you are stronger than you thought you were.

      Regarding the misinformation- maybe it is nasty of me, but when I am on a new job I keep track of the people’s names who give me bad information. I track their names because usually that is the shorter list and it is easier to keep in my head. I avoid asking those people if I can. If I can’t avoid asking them, I will be sure to say “How can I get this answer for myself, so I do not keep bugging you?”

      As long as things seem calmer now, I would just keep my chin up and keep going. You’ll probably be okay in the long run.

      1. Shell*

        Monday to Wednesday were completely insane, but the last two days have calmed down considerably, and consequently, my number of stupid mistakes in the last two days have been very low (dare I say nil?). Also, surprisingly (to me anyway), my coworkers do not seem to think I need to be dressed down for my mistakes. One of them even apologized to me earlier today for something I thought was totally trivial, so I do feel a lot better now.

        I won’t need to ask that person for information very much, and now that I’m less stressed I’m inclined to think it was a genuine miscommunication somehow. Still being careful (I’m retweaking my own procedures every week), but hopefully I won’t run into any more mishaps! I’m already planning some follow up emails for next week.

        Thanks for the reassurance. AAM is an awesome community. :)

  52. barefeet54*

    So this morning I got a call from an employer that I did a phone interview with back in August or September. After the interview, I got an email saying no thanks, and I have been working in another job since then. On the call this morning, they said that the interviewer thought I was overqualified but kept my materials/info, and they want to talk to me about another position that’s open now. This is crazy to me (I thought this was a job applications myth/urban legend). They sent along the new position description, which actually looks beyond me – more work experience than I have, an advanced degree I don’t have. But they know that and still want to talk so hey, I’m game.

    What I’m unsure of is whether I should consider this a “real” job interview? I will be preparing as if it were, but I don’t know what to expect! (I also am committed to my current job for a while longer – at least a month after they want someone to start at this other organization – but I guess that’s an issue for another time, if I were to get an offer). Any words of advice or anything would be much appreciated!

    1. Elizabeth West*

      First, they just want to talk to you about it. That isn’t an offer, so you don’t have to make any decisions about your current job right now. Of course you should treat it as a real job interview–they’re all information-gathering meetings. That’s what you’re doing right now. If you’re really interested in this employer, it will not hurt to go and see what they have to say, what answers they have to your questions, etc.

      Second, the hiring process often takes time–so it could be more than a month before you find out anything. Again, no decisions at the moment. I would retract that if they offered it on the spot, but that would be another question. And you might get in there and decide it’s not for you.

      Good luck!

    2. Lizard*

      Definitely a “real” job interview! It’s great that they actually held on to your materials and called you back in.

    3. jamlady*

      Given that it’s a totally different position (and it’s been 7 months since you last spoke with them), go into the interview like you’re starting from scratch. They may have kept your stuff, but I doubt they’ll remember the interview much (especially the off-hand stuff that may actually be important to them). Also, they may have made assumptions about you for this position because of where you were personally and in your career 7 months ago. It’s important to go in with a clean slate and show them where you are now. Equally important, THEY may have changed in the last 7 months, so don’t forget to ask the same questions about structure and all that so you know the company and the way it’s run is still something you want to be apart of. Good luck!

  53. Spooky*

    How do you ask for feedback when you haven’t gotten a formal rejection?

    I recently made it through the first two rounds of a job that I really, really wanted and thought I’d be a great fit for. The initial feedback from the company was positive: they responded to my application in less than 12 hours, said I did a great job in the first round (a test,) was their first candidate for interviews in round two, and said they thought my experience was a great fit. They told me they would let me know either way about next steps. Now, it’s been a month since my interview, and it’s been radio silence. Neither of the people I was in contact with responded to my follow-up email. I’m assuming that this means they’re pursuing other candidates and just aren’t following through with their promise to let me know. Naturally, I understand that there were likely many qualified candidates and I never felt like I “deserved” the job or was guaranteed to get it, but I would really like feedback so that I could do better in future interviews. Is there a way that I can ask for feedback even though I haven’t formally been rejected?

    1. fposte*

      I think you can try the usual message, and treat it as your not getting the job. But I’m not sure I’d bother; they’re already unresponsive about the actual job process, so I don’t think they’re likely to be responsive on an additional request.

      1. jamlady*

        This times a miiiiillion. I’ve been second choice for jobs with very thorough and communicative hiring processes and then when they sent the formal and blah rejection letter, I received no response about advice. Never hurts to try, but you probably won’t hear anything.

  54. AnonKlutz*

    I need to ditch my regular name since this situation is super-identifying.

    I fell at work last week and it was really stupid. I was just walking and bam! down I went. Nothing either my company or I did was dangerous. I initially thought I was ok, then when an ice pack didn’t fix it I officially reported it to worker’s comp and saw a doctor. I wound up in a brace and OTC meds with the expectation that I’d start improving really quickly and be fine in two weeks. The problem is that I started getting worse. I haven’t had a full night’s sleep since it happened. I’m now banned from putting weight on it and had an MRI that I’ll get the results from next week. I pushed through working the rest of last week and most of this week (including going in over the weekend) but finally hit a wall yesterday/today and took today to stay home.

    The problem is that I feel really guilty about taking the time off now – like who gets progressively worse? How do I justify being able to work right after it happened but not now? I have a desk job and can put my leg up while I work, but just getting myself there is exhausting. I feel like I look like I’m faking, even though I’m not. I don’t know if there’s a question in here, I’m just at the point where I don’t know what to do and am super frustrated!

    1. Rex*

      I know this is scary, especially since you’re still maybe figuring out what is wrong, but you need to take the time to let this heal. It sounds like your employer is understanding, so you’re much luckier than a lot of people who need to push through just to get food on the table. Do what you have to do to get better.

    2. barefeet54*

      I think it’s totally ok and not at all uncommon for an injury to be worse than originally expected! Doctors make mistakes too :) I hope that you start feeling well soon.

        1. Snork Maiden*

          Oh my gosh, I agree, please take time off to rest. I did not, after a bad sprain, and I’m still dealing with repercussions two years later.

        2. Natalie*

          I notice that with sickness, too. If I have a cold and I take one day off to rest, I will be 90% better in 2 days and totally better in 4. If I take no days off and power through, I’ll be sick for at least a full week, sometimes more. And I’ll feel like absolute hell.

      2. AnonKlutz*

        Thanks!

        I probably (ok definitely) pushed too hard at first, to the point where I actively denied how much pain I was in. And now I’m stuck with having to admit the state I’m really in, which is not something I’d wish on anyone.

        1. barefeet54*

          Hope you aren’t stuck there for long – rest up and let yourself heal, however long it takes.

    3. Tamzin*

      Many people get progressively worse, especially if you have damage to a nerve and are (like me) of our uniquely masochistic work culture that emphasizes “fighting through it” rather than “getting the rest you need now instead of hurting yourself worse later.”

      As a personal example, I slipped on some ice and fell into (INTO) traffic a year or so ago. I had skinned knees, ripped $300 pants (lol), skinned palms that looked horrific, and a bruised hip and knee. I thought my injuries were superficial and scary, yes, but whatever — I’ll go to work and buy bandages. However, deciding to not check for head and neck injuries were a big mistake. I thought that I shouldn’t “make a scene” by taking the day to go to the ER, but as I was becoming extremely fatigued and achy at work I realized that huh, something was seriously wrong. While at work I was slurring my words and my boss even made an insensitive joke that I must have taken some pills and booze to “deal with my boo-boo” and that I needed to get some coffee.

      Turns out I had bad whiplash and a mild concussion from bouncing off the concrete. I told my boss I was taking the day off and that he’d get a doctor’s note and I’d update him on progress and that’s the end of it. He didn’t respond negatively at all, but when I finally returned from work he was definitely contrite about not encouraging me to go straight to the ER (my problems may have been lessened had I done so) and apologized for the booze and pills jokes. They weren’t funny.

      Long story short: Screw work, please take care of yourself. Get ALL the doctors’ notes. Just because your boss doesn’t understand how human biology and pain work doesn’t mean you need to be further victimized by him/her.

      1. AnonKlutz*

        and are (like me) of our uniquely masochistic work culture that emphasizes “fighting through it” rather than “getting the rest you need now instead of hurting yourself worse later.”

        Or “fight through it because you feel guilty pushing too much of onto the person who acts as your backup since he also has his own job to do, so suck it up and get everything done”

        I’m irrational and I know it.

        1. Tamzin*

          Well, it’s not totally irrational to worry about your coworkers and their work loads. But you have to look out for #1, you know? I completely understand how you feel, and it seems like this is really legitimate, so honestly, I bet your coworkers are wishing the best for a recovery and won’t mind shouldering some of your work so that you can take care of this. Have faith in the good will of your community! You’ll owe ’em one, that’s all. Or maybe it won’t even be that big of a deal.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        This this a thousand times this. An untreated concussion can KILL you. I’m glad you are okay, Tamzin.

        AnonKlutz–do whatever you have to do to heal. Most people think of falls as no big deal, but they can and do kill people. So they can be minor but obviously you can get really hurt!

    4. College Career Counselor*

      It seems to me (I could be mis-reading things) that you might feel somewhat weird about taking time off for a “stupid” fall at work, rather than a “legitimate” accident. Leaving that aside, my advice is to take the time off that you medically need to (and sometimes things DO get progressively worse after the initial injury). If anyone asks (or you feel the need to say something), you can certainly say, “Initially, I thought I’d be back up and running in a couple of weeks. As it turns out, it’s more complicated than that, and going back straightaway was not helpful.” Unless you have an unreasonable boss (or mean-spirited co-workers), I suspect people will be very understanding.

      1. AnonKlutz*

        I think you really hit what the voice in my head is telling me. There’s absolutely no good reason why I’m injured (well, yes, I recognize that landing all 200+ lbs on one knee without warning is going to cause problems, but why that happened is beyond me). My boss is pretty ok with it, but I’m also trying to tackle attendance problems with my staff, so I feel like I have to be there 100% of the time (even though I answer questions all through my waking hours). It’s not rational, and I recognize that, but it doesn’t keep me from feeling like an idiot for getting hurt and a hypocrite for not going in.

          1. AnonKlutz*

            Unfortunately, I don’t have a company-issued laptop, so all I can access is my email and IM system. I’ve been reading emails as they come in and either handling them, passing them to someone in the office, or marking them as to-do when I get back to the office if they aren’t time sensitive. I would LOVE to be able to work from home (and have a huge backlog of stuff I could work through), if only I had access to the system. My mind is fine (unless I take a painkiller, which I only need if I’m trying to push through a day in the office).

            1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

              Any chance of getting a laptop, at least for the short term? Most places I’ve worked will have a few loaner laptops floating around in addition to the permanently-assigned laptops, to be used when, say, someone who doesn’t normally travel has to go on a work trip, or when someone (as in your situation) needs to be at home for a longer-than-expected amount of time.

            2. Treena Kravm*

              I would request the laptop then. If you frame it as you did above, (that you can work fine from home, but if you drag yourself to the office, you need to be on pain meds that give you brain fog), then they might see the reasoning behind it.

            3. Elizabeth West*

              Agree with Treena below. Ask them! I’m sure if it’s feasible, they’d be happy to have you being productive if you’re able.

              I just got okay’d to work from London on my trip, btw. Which is a good thing–the month end for then has gotten HUGE. I don’t want to dump that on my coworkers while I’m off having cocktails with my chat room peeps and doing research. So I totally understand how you feel!

    5. OriginalEmma*

      Please, please, please keep Worker’s Comp in the loop about all sequelae you think are related to this event. I don’t mean the doctor they send you to but the company representative working on your case. A family member of mine was injured on the job, reported the immediate damage but didn’t report in a timely manner to the SPECIFIC company worker’s comp representative (even though she told the worker’s comp doctor they sent her to) additional musculoskeletal issues immediately, and the company said “well, you didn’t report that initially so we don’t care.”

      Additionally I was listening to MPR about how workers compensation around the country has been gutted and people are being absolutely screwed by it. So be careful.

      1. AnonKlutz*

        That’s definitely a good point. I had been talking to my rep every few days, but once the MRI was ordered I was escalated and don’t know who the new person is yet. I’m definitely calling the original person if I don’t hear back with the new person’s info Monday.

  55. VictoriaHR*

    I’m in the somewhat enviable position of expecting a job offer while still employed at a job that I do like, so I can turn down the offer if it’s not appealing enough.

    But my current job is contract and is set to expire in less than 5 months, whereas the new one would be full-time with benefits. My current manager is saying that he wants to convert me within “3 to 5 months” but his hands are currently tied. There’s just no budget for converting contractors right now (large company, international, 10k+ employees)

    New company would be small and family-owned, $9-10k more per year plus bonuses. Same great hours. Jeans dress code. Laptop and cell phone to work remotely if I want to on occasion (at my current job I’m still without a laptop after 7 months even though other contractors can work from home every day). Laid-back atmosphere with lots of friendliness (current job I’m stuck in a back hole because there’s no cubicle for me) and my own large office.

    New job sounds like a no-brainer but I feel badly about putting in notice because we’re understaffed. Blah.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      Unless there’s something off-putting about the new job (besides concern about change or the new/unknown) that you’re not mentioning, it sounds like:

      a) the working conditions are the same or much better than you have now
      b) the salary and benefits are significantly better
      c) the culture seems welcoming/a good fit

      AND, your current employer is not exactly moving quickly to equip, locate or convert you. So leaving them short-staffed (and off-loading your work to your colleagues) is the rationale for not taking the new position?

      What would you tell a friend in your position?

      1. VictoriaHR*

        I would tell them to go where they think they’ll be happier. And for me I think that’s the new one :) Looking forward to the offer on Tuesday!

    2. CheeryO*

      People will understand! I left my last job for a gig that was objectively better in just about every way, and almost everyone was incredibly kind and supportive of me after I put in my notice.

    3. Observer*

      I don’t know whether your manager is blowing smoke to keep you from looking elsewhere or really does want to convert you to full time. But, as long as you don’t have commitment in writing that you will go from contractor / temp employee to F/T, it’s meaningless. What IS meaningful, in the meantime, is that you are not getting the same kinds of benefits other contractors are getting. Why would they choose the person who they are giving the LEAST to, as the person they convert to F/T?

    4. Treena Kravm*

      I’m just as confused as others above. The contract job is $10k less than the full-time, (presumably) benefited job? Isn’t that the equivalent of $15-20k less, since you’re providing your own insurance?

      I think answering two questions will help. What happens at the 5 month expiration mark? Does the contract terminate or are you still an on-going contractor after that point? It seems like you know a lot, but have you done enough research about the culture to know whether or not you’ll be truly as happy/happier in the new job? What do you need to learn to be sure? Find that out asap.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Seems to me that if they were that worried about you leaving they could have done something before now. What are you supposed to do sit there on the last day and say “Do you think you might want to convert me, pretty-pleeease?” NOT.
      This is straight-forward. Their opening is iffy, the new job is not iffy. I’d say go for it.

  56. Labyrinthine*

    I manage a small team of direct support specialists. Most of the team is great about keeping their head down, plowing through our, admittedly, very busy workload and additional projects that I need them to work on. And then there is Wakeem.

    Wakeem … is difficult. Wakeem wants to just provide direct support, but this job requires projects, too. At first, Wakeem handled the projects but expressed a very negative attitude about it – to everyone. Then, after a very public scene, we took Wakeem down to an entry level position to handle just direct support. But this put a burden on the rest of the team to pick up the slack. Next week, I have to tell Wakeem he needs to resume his project work, and continue the level of direct support as everyone else and if he can’t, then he isn’t right for the position.

    I will admit, I hate these conversations. But I know it needs to be done. We’ve talked about it before but I don’t think he takes it seriously. He tends to try to be manipulative and threaten to leave, which at this point is probably what is going to happen.

    So, I’m taking Alison’s advice and making myself a list of talking points that need to be expressed. We are at the point, where it is going to be put in writing for Wakeem and given clear and direct timelines from which certain goals must be met.

    Does anyone have any advice on this? I’ve never had to put anyone on any sort of performance plan before as this is my first team and the other five are phenomenal workers that have caused no trouble yet.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If he’s threatening to leave, why not just say, “If what I’m describing isn’t the right fit for you, that might be what makes sense. Should we talk more about that?” I mean, he’s opening the door to it — let him walk through it.

      1. knitcrazybooknut*

        This was an eye-opener for me when I saw it play out years ago. A manager was trying to brainstorm with my HR Director about ways to keep an employee from complaining and threatening to quit all the time. My HR Director said, “Why do we need to stop him from doing that?” Jaw dropped.

        It’s a shift in thinking, but if someone is unhappy and/or not performing, there’s no real reason (besides avoiding the stress of hiring and training someone new) to stop them from walking out the door.

      2. Labyrinthine*

        This may be a none issue at this point. We had a network outage today and he disregarded direct instructions, argued with me about what he should be doing during this time and outright acted insubordinate. I’ll be discussing with my manager how we can fire him because today just proved he isn’t someone I can trust on my team.

        1. jamlady*

          Oh yikes. Coming (very recently) from a team with a coworker like this where the company didn’t do ANYTHING about said coworker, please please please remove him from the situation. He doesn’t deserve to be there.

    2. some1*

      “Then, after a very public scene, we took Wakeem down to an entry level position to handle just direct support.”

      Am I correct in assuming you demoted him because he made a public scene? I understand your line of thinking, and I know I am Monday morning quartebacking, but you really should have addressed that making scenes won’t be tolerated anymore.

      2. Labyrinthine*

        That was addressed. And he wasn’t “demoted” he just had responsibilities taken away from him but maintained his same position.

  57. Ama*

    Open question to the readers:

    How has reading AAM impacted your work life? How have you applied advice you find here?

    For me, I was able to give a coworker a good script to use to get what she needed from another coworker who is extremely melodramatic and emotional and takes everything personally.

    1. Noelle*

      It’s definitely helped me get my last two jobs and massively increased the number of interviews I’ve gotten. Particularly her advice about what questions you are most afraid of being asked at a job interview and then prepping for those.

    2. GOG11*

      I’ve sort of adopted a new attitude/culture about my workplace. I’ve implemented specific strategies, phrasing, etc. from time to time, but the most significant change has been in my thought patterns and approach to things. I look at and evaluate situations through a different lens.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        This is so interesting! (As are all the responses to this question!) Is the new lens more of a “how managers think about this stuff” or something else?

        1. GOG11*

          It’s more about being aware of my assumptions and taking them into account when I address work situations and about evaluating problems, behaviors, scenarios, etc. based on outcomes and effects. I assess situations based on how it affects job performance and the organization instead of relying on my beliefs about how the workplace should work. I’ve also learned to accept how things ARE rather than how I believe they SHOULD be – because how they should be isn’t how they are.

          For example, a coworker had said something to my manager about my sick leave/time out of office and my manager passed it on to me. Instead of becoming defensive and focusing on the fact that I’m allowed to take sick leave, I addressed my job performance and asked if there were concerns about my work being done correctly and on time. In the past, I would have focused on how coworkers SHOULD respect that I have certain benefits and I’m allowed to take them instead of the fact that one of my coworkers was raising concerns about my sick time.

    3. cuppa*

      It has enhanced my management skills exponentially. The best part about here, for me, is being able to bounce off wording and feedback and finding the right words and tone to convey a message.

      1. Ama*

        I feel like I’m channeling my inner AAM when I come up with something with good wording.

    4. Shell*

      It’s helped me be far less afraid of direct conversations between coworkers–phrased diplomatically, of course. I learned that efficiency and kindness don’t have to be mutually exclusive and directness isn’t the same as lacking tact. Sometimes when I discuss work things with my parents and they suggest things that inevitably turn to “if it gets worse, you should loop in their supervisor or your supervisor” and I go “absolutely, but before that, I’d want to talk to them directly first.”

      AAM is amazing.

    5. BRR*

      It’s most importantly accelerated learning how an office works and how to expressing things in an office friendly way (my manager recently complimented me during my performance issues due to medical issues conversation on how I basically was managing myself).

      Other random things:
      -Scripting out phone conversations because I get anxious when calling someone on the phone
      -Knowing what HR does (aka not there for conflict resolution)
      -Helping myself and others write better cover letters and resumes
      -How to explain my past firing in interviews
      -Realizing that so many things won’t change in the macro sense and you need to deal with it in the micro sense

    6. Snork Maiden*

      I’ve realized that I need to find a better job. (Ha! Seriously – so many of the issues at work before AAM I blamed myself, and now I realize it’s the culture here.)

      It’s helped myself, my friends, and siblings become better professional people – instead of reacting personally, or defensively, I can stay calm and concerned without going Internal Defcon 5. Also cover letters no longer terrify me!

    7. fposte*

      It is pretty much my entire management training, aside from not wanting to be like X or Y.

      I also find that if I’m facing a problem and consider it as a letter to the blog, I have an answer for it that I didn’t previously realize I had.

    8. Julie*

      It made me brave enough to apply for another job. I applied to about 12 in 1 week before I started wondering again if maybe I deserved how I was being treated. That same day I got a call for an interview. I’m sitting at the new job now so I’d say it helped me a lot. I already had a killer resume but 1) my cover letter improved, 2) I realized the things I debated about being toxic at the old place were by comparing my job to others, and 3) it helped me go from government to private work and to know how to argue for my salary difference I wanted.

    9. knitcrazybooknut*

      I directly credit AAM with my current position. I improved my cover letter, resume, and interviewing tactics by a zillion percent. My manager flat out stated that my application materials were the best she has seen in her many years of hiring. I continue to find more ways that I am, indeed, the perfect match for the position I have, but I know that taking Alison’s advice made my application glow.

      As someone who enjoys getting things done, it’s helpful for me to read the column and remember that many of the people I work with have different struggles they handle every day. Not all of them are as driven to get stuff done. Some of them even enjoy chit-chat! And to build positive relationships, I participate and relate well, and the work goes ever smoother. We all get things that we want and need. Just recognizing the differences is very helpful.

    10. Just me*

      I applied for a stretch position. The cover letter was easy to write because I took the Allison Advice. I’m optimistic!

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I know that I have found words for situations that I could not describe before. It would replay like a movie in my head, but I had no way to reeeally describe it. I think that seeing people talk about their situations has opened me up to being able to express some of my own.
      My bosses’ eyebrows have gone up when I have repeated something I read here, because the tidbit just absolutely nailed a parallel situation we were having.
      I see Alison as setting framework and defining boundaries. But it’s important to be able to discuss some of the finer points or maybe talk about exceptions and this is what the comments provide. If someone is having a problem similar to the OP’s problem they can read the comments and get an expanded view of that same scenario. There are times where the OP is in a very bad spot. I think that multiple voices saying “a similar thing happened to me and…..” can be very reassuring. And that is what I find here is a lot of reassurance.

  58. SoBurnedOut*

    This is a doozy: I’m concerned about how my first job out of college will set me up for a professional lifetime of unhealthy thought patterns when it comes to my coworkers, direct reports, and managers.

    I work on a two-person team for a young-ish nonprofit. I started out two years ago as a “fellow” paid at an intern rate (less than minimum wage) but classified as a contractor, even though I was required to come in and work as an employee. I’ve just learned that this is illegal, but fear reporting them because I don’t want to burn bridges or lose a potential job reference. As far as I know, there’s no anonymous way to report this to the IRS. I’ve approached my manager about it thinking that we were just given bad legal advice– he told me to not put any of this in writing, but he would “look into it.” It’s been two months. Six months ago I was hired as official employee #2.

    When I first came on board, there were two other fellows on the team– one of whom joined the same week I did, and both of whom were significantly older than me with masters’ degrees. Each of them had been tasked with running a specific part of the program we focus on, and I was tasked with providing support, with no other direction or specific work. Within three months of my arrival, our boss went on paternity leave for two months ahead of our biggest event of the year. When neither team member shared any work with me or gave me substantive tasks to do, I started projects of my own that eventually enabled both other team members to significantly grow their programs. I thought things were fine, until my boss came back and started publicly praising me for my contributions. That was when things immediately soured with the other two team members– I’d walk in on them cracking jokes at my expense and came across crude memes about me (with my name on it) on their screens, which they quickly closed when they realized I was around. One team member started making jokes about how I was a diversity hire who would be the first to go if there were budget cuts, since I wasn’t managing a specific program, and kept introducing me as “the intern,” when in fact none of us had any “rank” within the organization. I briefly brought this up to the boss but didnt pursue it further because his newborn had health issues and he wasn’t around. Eventually those two team members were let go for poor performance, so that problem ended, except I was doing the work of 3 people (ie managing the programs that I’d inherited while continuing to grow the one I’d started).

    Recognizing that I needed support, he offered to hire a temporary intern and left me to manage the process, until a friend of his friend applied. Even though I”d set up a routine phone screen, he bypassed me and invited her straight into the office for an interview, then pressured me to hire her soon after. I did, as she was a good enough candidate, and she was to be my direct report. The problem, however, was soon after she was hired (she was about two or three years older than me) she would roll her eyes at my instructions, then blow off the less interesting tasks and ask for more “substantive work.” Thinking that I’d misunderstood the terms of her employment agreement, I checked in with my boss privately, who told me that she was being “obnoxious” and to force her to do what I’d asked. I stayed firm in my instructions to the intern, but did not receive reinforcement from my boss, even when he had promised it and I’d reminded him of it. In retrospect, I wasted more time fighting with her than I saved with her contributions to the team.

    Once her contract was up, he decided he didn’t want to work with an intern anymore, and left me to continue managing the bulk of the programs. That would have been a huge stretch of my capacity, but I was up for the challenge. The problem is, we suddenly received a major government subcontract, and he has to leave the country for two weeks (without much ability for me to get in touch with him) before our biggest annual showcase and Gala. Knowing this, I pushed to get as much done in January and February as possible– I don’t have the authority to make purchasing decisions and have to clear them with him. For reasons I still can’t understand, each time I approached him to make a decision, he kept insisting that I wait closer to the showcase date to make htat purchase. I pushed back but he didnt budge. On top of that, a lot of tasks that he said he’d handle never got done, and I’m only discovering them now. Am I supposed to micromanage my own boss?

    Multiplied by over 50 other instances, and that situation has now led me to working 16 hours a week (on top of a three hour round trip commute). And while all of my work can be done from home while he is out of the country (and working from home would enable me to have even more time to get things done), I absolutely MUST be at the office in teh next two weeks, and he’ll enforce that by asking the people who share our coworking space if I’m around.

    My hair is falling out, I’m dry heaving constantly from the stress. I’ve sown the seeds to find a new job elsewhere but have only had interviews and no offers. I don’t know what to do, although I know that quitting isn’t a great idea because it will raise questions with the new employers. I’m terrified that since this is my first “real” post-college job, I’m being conditioned to not trust any member of my team or my manager. I don’t know how to cope. I’m not even sure what I’m asking for advice on here– just wanted an outsider’s take on any of this, and to know whether I’m going crazy.

    1. Rex*

      It sounds like you’re being asked to essentially run this office, but without any of the authority. What is up with no-one having any “rank”? Either you are supervising these people, in which case if they don’t do what you say, you have to have authority to enforce consequences, or you don’t, but then I don’t know who does, since it sounds like your Director is mostly elsewhere. But it sounds like your org is comfortable with muddy waters, both legally and in terms of organizational structure. Either you need to find a way to get more explicit organizational authority, probably through a conversation with you boss (if you can find him) or you need to find somewhere that is interested in having a clearer organizational structure.

    2. Dawn*

      Your boss sucks, and your job sucks. If you can handle it financially, quit. Right now. Allison recommends not doing that 99.5% of the time, but the other .5% is when your job is negatively impacting your health and well being and you are well past that point.

      Any job-related PTSD you might develop from this job will wear off once you quit, because then everything won’t seem so immediate and reek of impending doom.

      1. Wolfey*

        I second quitting if you have a financial cushion. The stress you describe is really bad for you! Barring that, have a serious discussion with your boss about quitting if you don’t get more support and more reasonable hours. Don’t let anyone manipulate you into thinking that these are normal expectations and someone qualified would be able to do it all.

        1. SoBurnedOut*

          Thanks so much for the comments, everyone! I *have* had that talk with him– once every two weeks since January, clearly outlining what tasks I needed to offload onto him or another staffer in order to reduce my workload. He’ll hear me out, but nothing changes, even with follow up from me.

          I’ve changed my approach to asking for a 30% raise. I had about 6 months’ savings to fall back on, but that’s fallen down to 2 months now that I’ve paid my “independent contractor” taxes.

          The reasons why I’m scared of quitting are 1) my sector is very specialized and fairly small (but I assure you my experience and company culture is atypical), so I’m concerned I won’t find a new job right away, 2) If i were to take any job, it would put me back several years in my career advancement in this sector, and 3) given my relationships with my coworkers, I don’t really have anyone but my boss to serve as a reference for a new job. Most of my internship experience was done broad, and I’ve tried to track down my former managers but to no avail.

          1. Wolfey*

            Good job advocating for a raise! Building up savings is a smart strategy. Keep trying to get in touch with your overseas managers, keep interviewing (it’s unlikely you’d use this boss as a reference for your next job anyway), and see if you can cultivate any relationships with other people in your organization who could eventually speak to your work.

            Hang in there! I promise it gets better.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            I don’t think with one job out of college you are expected to have a huge amount of references. But just because that part is a little choppy, is not the same as saying it’s impossible.
            Work on building very good descriptions of the work/projects you have done.

      2. LCL*

        If your company is crooked in how they handle your status, they will be crooked and incompetent in other areas. This is a huge warning sign. What has been happening with your taxes, social security, and workers’ comp payments? Leave now for your own protection. If you can’t leave now, limit your work to 8 hours a day.

        1. SoBurnedOut*

          We didn’t even have worker’s comp insurance until a month ago, when one of our sponsor raised that concern.

          Because I was classified as an independent contractor before I got hired full time six months ago, I am responsible for those taxes and social security.

          I can’t afford to leave, and don’t have references to fall back on if I were to job search (I’m just two years out of school), so I’m afraid of being left dead in the water if I were to push back on the workload.

          1. Wolfey*

            It sounds like what you’re doing is so nutty that they would be royally screwed without you, and your boss has to know that. This gives you more bargaining power than you might think in order to push back. If you are literally the only person responsible for this big thing, he should be worried if you say “I need this and I need it today, or I need to leave.” You can say you need regular hours, or a day off, or you need to work from home, or that task XYZ is not getting done unless someone else does it because you are not going to touch it unless other things disappear from your list. I really reallllly doubt you’d be fired for doing this and I’d only advocate this because your health is suffering. Are you able to go to your boss’s boss to see about immediate relief? I don’t know the etiquette on that, but I might try it in your situation.

            The more important thing is to work on your exit strategy. Dude, you gotta get out of there.

            1. SoBurnedOut*

              You’re right– thank you. I pushed back today and informed him that I’d be working home, after getting back at 1 am from a conference.

              I’m on a team of two, so my boss doesn’t have a boss– there’s just the Board of Directors for our nonprofit, but it’s unlikely to be sympathetic, as it’s the one who told me that there wasn’t a problem with me being initially classified as an independent contractor.

              I’m pouring everything I have into getting out of here, after seeing the almost unanimous advice here. Can’t wait to send you all an update–I hope it will happen soon!

    3. Wolfey*

      You are definitely NOT crazy! Wow, that’s a lot of responsibility and incredibly bad management. I haven’t had a single “good” job out of school yet either, and I definitely remember working 16 hr/day + 3 hour commute, but I’ve never experienced something as nutty as what you’re describing. Keep interviewing, get sleep, and try to maintain some perspective on the relative importance of this work. No one is going to die if things aren’t perfect, and ultimately this is your boss’s problem.

    4. Well*

      Lots of good advice here, but just wanted to make sure you know that it gets better. This is your very first job, not all jobs are like this, and a decade from now you will regale much-more-professional work colleagues about the crazy stuff you had to deal with right out of college working at that nonprofit startup.

      *This won’t define you.* I am literally a completely different (better!) person than I was after working two years after my first post-college job, which sounds similar to yours.

      Don’t panic. Assess whether you can afford to quit right now as objectively as possible. If you can’t, immediately start cutting costs so that if things continue to get worse, you can. And keep looking. But seriously, don’t worry that you’re going to be damaged by this. Sure, maybe there’ll be bad habits and mindsets to overcome, but you’ve got plenty of time to grow out of them.

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        Thank for your reassurance! Sometimes when things are particularly bad, it’s hard for me to remember that I’m not the first one to have gone through something like this (which makes things especially lonely, since I’m the only one on this team).

        You’re right that I shouldn’t worry about long-term damage right now. The best thing to do, since I can’t responsibly quit, is to set stronger boundaries and look even harder for a new job. Thanks for the encouragement!

    5. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

      Yeah. I know it can be difficult to keep things in perspective, but one thing to consider is: if your health is being adversely affected, that’s an objective sign that you’re in a bad situation.

      It’s a little difficult to tell, but it sounds like this “young-ish nonprofit” is basically you and your boss who’s never around?

      One thing: people are a lot more resiliant and adaptable than you may think. You seem concerned that you’re going to be psychologically damaged for the rest of your life from working at this place. It may feel like that now, but you’ll feel lots better as soon as you get out of there and into a new job. Malcolm Gladwell wrote an interesting piece on this some years back; I’ll post a link.

      Based on what you wrote, I think you should quit. Maybe you could try to talk to your boss first, tell him you simply can’t handle propping the whole damn outfit up by yourself, and see if he’ll do anything about it (and if he says he will, nail him down to a date by which things will be better – like, “next friday”). But you aren’t committing any sin by getting out of there. Others can correct me if necessary, but I don’t think other companies will think badly of you for quitting – I suspect that every year some percentage of new grads are lured into hiring on at a flaky company for their first job. Sad to think about it, but – at least you’re not alone.

        1. SoBurnedOut*

          Yes, you’re absolutely right– it is just the two of us full time. Occasionally we’ll bring on an intern, but it’s for a limited commitment.

          I’m concerned about how to explain my quitting to a potential new employer. If I were a seasoned professional I’d be able to say something like, “I quit because the job made unreasonable demands of my time and severely impacted my health as a result,” but I’m concerned that saying that at my age (23) will raise red flags that I can’t work hard.

          Thank you so much for the link and reassurance that this feeling won’t follow me around from job to job! It’s given me a second wind to continue applying to new places.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Explain it as you are going TOWARD something. “I want to focus on x and y now.” or “I have learned a lot at a smaller NPO and I feel that I have something to offer a larger group. I would like to work for a larger organization with A and B going on.”

            If you try to explain that you need to get away from something that will just be too awkward and will not motivate an employer to want to hire you.

          2. jamlady*

            I’ve been totally honest about dysfunction from past companies in interviews. It’s important to note what you learned and accomplished, but you can be professional about explaining why you were unhappy with your previous company and use that to transition into (with confidence) what you’re looking for from a new employer. People at that level have been there (maybe not this bad, but there) and they get it. Just be sure to be professional about your explanation – you don’t want to come off as negative or unreasonable (but seriously, this situation is crazy). And if you don’t want to get into the details, then you can find a nice, short way of saying it and then transitioning to what would make you happy.

          3. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

            Heh …. Actually, Alison is The Master at wordsmithing just the correct script for this kind of thing. In my non-expert opinion, leave out the stuff about your health or unreasonable demands on your time. Maybe instead something like “when joined Nonprofits’R’Us, I was excited that I was getting in on the ground floor in a field I loved. However, over time, instead of growing, the outfit appeared to be shrinking. Personnel left and were never back-filled, promises were made and broken, critical deadlines were missed, and the executives were never available to make critical policy decisions. Or – they didn’t seem to care. I stuck with them for almost two years, but in the end there was nothing I could do to keep the ship from sinking.” And you could follow up with “on the bright side, I managed to learn a lot about yadda yadda yadda …”

            Others may have better scripts – but do you see how this one attempts to focus on objective business facts and problems with the organization? A potential new employer doesn’t want to hear that the job made you sick, or that it put unreasonable demands on your time.

  59. Noelle*

    I just got a new job! It’s a great move for me – more responsibility, better issues, better benefits, and better pay. Unfortunately, my boss is NOT taking it well. He looked like he was going to cry when I told him I was leaving, and ever since he has been giving me the silent treatment and pretending I don’t exist. Has anyone else had a situation like this? My coworkers want to take me to lunch/have a going away party, but I’m afraid it will just be really uncomfortable because of my boss.

    1. Dawn*

      Uh, wow. That’s over the top ridiculous- someone quitting a job isn’t personal, it’s business. So if your boss is taking it personal, that’s completely on him, not on you. Smile, nod, be polite and personable, ride out your notice period, and let him dry his tears in private.

      1. Noelle*

        Thanks! I’ve never had a situation like this, usually managers are sad that I’m leaving but understand why. He seemed really accusatory about whether I’d been job searching (yes) and why. I do like him, and I’m not leaving because of him, but this behavior is kind of crazy.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Does he do this every time someone leaves, or is it just you? He might just be really upset because he depended on you, and he doesn’t know what he’s going to do. Or he might just be a twerp, I don’t know. Either way, it’s not really your problem. I’d just work as hard as I can to ease the transition, keep him in the loop (email), and enjoy your going-away party. If he’s sitting in the corner pouting, ignore him like you would a toddler.

      1. Noelle*

        He’s always weird when people leave because he hates hiring, but this is unusually bad. I think part of it is because I work on several issues that he (purposely) knows nothing about, and he’s always saying he’s glad he never has to think about those issues because he knows I’m handling them.

    3. Observer*

      Let your co-workers have the going away party / lunch. Your boss isn’t handling it well, to say the least, but not having the party won’t help any. And, leaving on good terms with the rest of the team certainly can’t hurt you.

      1. Noelle*

        Ok, thanks! This office has very low turnover, which I think is also a part of it. But I’d say 90% of the organization is fine, and it’s just my direct boss and one of my older coworkers who are acting very passive aggressive (my coworker by assigning me seriously terrible work to do and saying jerky things about how I’m an opportunist, which is so obviously petty but not surprising and I expected that).

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I had a boss stop speaking to me once. It was actually comical, looking back on it. He would pass me in the hallway and turn his face away from me as we passed. How extreme.

        It had no bearing on anything. My coworkers were totally appropriate and everything went fine.

        1. Noelle*

          My boss did that too! I was standing in the hallway talking to a coworker and he was trying to get by but wouldn’t talk to me so he just kind of glared into space and stomped his feet until I moved.

  60. GOG11*

    One of my life goals has been realized – a question I asked was answered on AAM (Wednesday, OP 5). It made my week. :D

    Has anyone else felt this way about getting their question answered? Or, does anyone else aspire to?

    1. BRR*

      Ugh I tried but was only answered privately. Alison one time liked my approach to something and I get excited when she replies to my comments.

      I’m also taking credit for suggesting the AMA on running the blog which felt great.

      1. GOG11*

        If that happened to me, I would probably die, as well. I absolutely adore Jenna Marbles.

        And it wasn’t just that I was acknowledged by Alison (which is pretty cool!), it was the feedback I received from all the commenters. I had a bit of imposter syndrome going on (I’m 25 and I am an admin assistant, who am I to give career guidance?) and seeing what I was trying to accomplish being viewed as worthwhile by people I respect was a huge morale boost.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          The commenters here are really fabulous, aren’t they? (I am not including myself in that) :)

          Re Jenna: even if she only follows me for a little while (I’m not really funny enough for Twitter), it still made my freaking day. She just cracks me up.

    4. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

      YES, Alison’s answered a few of my questions now and every time I do a little dance. Earlier this week she answered me privately to say the answer I was giving to a particular interview question was great, which was hugely validating.

  61. Enigma*

    First time commenting so I’m a little nervous, but I’m hoping someone can help me out?

    I’m going to be graduating university in May and it looks like I’m gonna be moving back in with my parents for financial reasons. I went to a school 8+ hrs away in a different state, but obviously on resumes I’ll be using my parent’s address not the address for my school apartment.

    My question is this: If an employer asks me to come in for an interview, how do I tell them that I’m 8+ hrs away and is a phone or skype interview possible first? Or do I just suck it up and drive the 8+ hrs back home without saying anything? Or is this something I disclose up-front (in my resume or cover letter)?

    I’m also afraid that if I tell them I’m at school so far away they’ll worry about me being non-local and having to relocate and that will hurt my chances. But I’m not sure if telling them that I already have a place to live will also hurt me, considering that place is my parents’ house. Do employers even care about things like that or not?

    1. GOG11*

      I haven’t navigated this myself, but I would think you could say that you’re currently going to school at X (ant. graduation date of May X, 15) and that you’ll be returning to the area to be close to family/live with family. Depending on when you apply, to what you apply, and hiring timelines, you may end up with interviews around the time you’ll be back anyways.

      If you’re not, you could bring up the possibility of an initial skype or phone interview or if it’s a really good job that you’re excited about, would driving be feasible for you if they required an in-person interview? I’m hoping others with more experience will weigh in. Good luck to you!

    2. H*

      I really do not think that employers care about whether you live with your parents or not. I had a similarish situation, and I put my parents address and noted the date I was planning to take up residence there. Also, I’m assuming you have “Degree expected May 2015” or something next to your university, since you don’t actually have the degree yet. I think a smart employer can figure out WHY your address is changing based on the state the school is in.

    3. Judy*

      In my experience, relocating as a new grad is different than relocating as an established person. At the end of college, you’re expected to leave town, and generally you don’t have a house to sell or tons of stuff.

      I had two sets of addresses and phone numbers as a new grad, “Campus Address” and “Permanent Address”, so it was clear.

    4. MaryMary*

      When I was job searching in college, I put two addresses on my resume: permanent address and campus address. Then it was clear that I had a footprint in both locations. I wouldn’t say anything in your cover letter, unless it’s part of how you’re selling yourself for the position. Many employers do a pre-screen or phone interview before an in-person interview, and if they don’t it’s perfectly reasonable to ask (especially since you’re still in school and theoretically should be attending classes!). It’s also common for college graduates to cast a wide net when they’re job hunting, many employers aren’t as concerned about relocation (they might not pay for it, but they wouldn’t count a candidate out because of it).

    5. dd*

      You can and maybe should bring the issue up in the cover letter. tell them you are finishing up your studies and will be at your home address by May. They will figure out what to do from there if they want to interview you.

    6. BRR*

      I wouldn’t worry about not being local since it’s your parent’s address. I’m assuming it’s where you’re from or at least it will appear to be where you’re from so an employer won’t have the same concerns.

  62. Meg Murry*

    Let’s talk about workplace rules – both written and unwritten. I know some people here have mentioned having a “no microwave popcorn” rule in their office. Any other interesting rules in your office, either by official policy, culture or a personal quirk/peeve of the powers that be?

    I recently started a new job, and was amused to read that the policy manual specifically calls out “no reading of novels or non-work materials during working time other than breaks” but doesn’t really give a general “expect you to be working during work hours” statement (although obviously that is implied).

    My last position didn’t have a real break room, just a microwave in the conference room, and no ventilation – so there was an unwritten rule that you didn’t microwave anything that might make the office smell like food all day. People would microwave water for tea, or occasionally food that doesn’t really have an odor like plain oatmeal – but heating up something with a scent got you the side eye all day. It was also expected that if you were in the office, you were able to work, so if you wanted your lunch break (that was unpaid, we were hourly employees) it was best to leave, which was rather annoying.

    1. LillianMcGee*

      Oatmeal is repugnant to me and I gag every time someone heats it up in our microwave! Haha. No rules about smelly food here, though. A lot of us eat tuna and it smells, yeah, but the attitude is: deal with it, man.

      Our handbook has a rule about not sleeping in the office which one guy breaks every day for his lunchtime nap. No one cares. There’s another rule about not drinking during our evening events which, no.

    2. Sascha*

      We have an unwritten rule that no one else may plan department-wide parties or gifts besides this one admin assistant, “Angela” as we shall call her. Angela is very territorial about this. She IS the party planner and the gift basket maker. A few times, other people have tried to plan parties or gifts, and were met with nasty emails from her, and then we all got a dept-wide email from Angela that was overly sweet and super passive aggressive, about how no one needs to “worry” about doing these things, as she has them covered. Recently, me and a couple of other coworkers wanted to get our pregnant coworker our own baby gift, and we had to be very secretive about it, otherwise we’d invoke Angela’s ire.

      I get the sense Angela doesn’t have a whole lot of work to do and is therefore very sensitive about other people doing “her” work. Also she really prides herself on those gift baskets.

      1. some1*

        I had an Angela at a previous job. She was so imperious about being the self-appointed cruise director that she actually got offended when our other coworker declined an offer of a baby shower — she was pregnant with her sixth kid!!

        1. Artemesia*

          These ‘Angelas’ are also frequent escalators of gift giving in my experience. They often suck up to the boss and thus are the ones insisting on buying expensive gifts for the boss. If you dont have a good boss who discourages giving up, this can get really abusive. In one office I worked in, the Angela made a big fuss about the two male bosses birthdays and such. I was their peer but female and had a real struggle to even get my work done. (She had time for the ‘boys’ whims and to plan events to honor the bosses, but not enough time to do her actual job) This finally fell of its own weight at a big departmental event where she had bought an elaborate birthday cake for the boss — and then someone told her it was my birthday as well. So my name got hastily added to the cake and then there was the big ceremonial presentation of ‘the gift’ she had bullied everyone into contributing to for the ‘boss’ — a lovely leather briefcase. And then there was the formal presentation of my gift — this is in front of 100 people –. It was a little rubber thing with fake fur glued to it that you were supposed to put on the floor mat of your car to protect the back of your high heel from getting scraped. The entire group broke into laughter when I held it up straight faced and said ‘thank, this will come in hand.’ (I had no idea what it was and I’m sure most other people didn’t either but it was clearly cheap, a freebie, and silly) That was sort of the end of abusively large gifts for the ‘boys.’ who were embarrassed into finally noticing this woman’s behavior. (even after downsizing and moving I have kept this little gem because it makes me smile every time I see it in the back of a drawer — this was about 20 years ago)

      2. CheeryO*

        Please tell me that name is an homage to the Dunder Mifflin Party Planning Committee!

        1. the_scientist*

          Also, OP, do you actually work at the Scranton Branch of Dunder Mifflin paper co? Because it sounds like you do!

    3. GOG11*

      I have been thinking on this since you posted it and I realize that I don’t know what the unwritten rules are. What cues does a person look for to figure those out? I’m the only one in my building with my particular rank and it’s hard to know what applies to everyone and what applies to just the other people I work with so I err on the side of “that’s not for me to do” pretty much all the time.

      1. manomanon*

        It’s an unwritten here that people on my floor don’t go out to get coffee. The people downstairs go out to get it once a day or so (we have 2 floors) but it’s RARE on my floor. Everyone brings it in the morning but doesn’t go on a starbucks etc run unless the sky is falling.

        1. GOG11*

          Is there any difference other than that you’re on different floors? I mean, there is a slight division in the community (one group is separated from the other) but is the job of the people downstairs less impacted by coffee runs or something?

          1. manomanon*

            We’re different teams but there’s nothing that would be more or less impacted. It’s mostly a culture thing that became an unwritten rule, one floor goes on coffee runs, one floor doesn’t.

    4. some1*

      It’s an unwritten rule here that you dont listen to music with headphones. Its a small office and it’s important to seem accessible.

    5. MaryMary*

      I had an internship in an office that had an unwritten no seafood rule (the owner hated the smell), which I did not learn until I brought leftover shrimp scampi for lunch.

      My current office is big into health and wellness, so homemade baked goods are officially frowned upon unless they ate tangentially healthy (banana bread gets a pass). Unofficially, everyone still loves cookies and brownies.

      This office is also really odd about greeting coworkers. If you don’t say good morning when you walk in the office, hi in the hallways, and goodbye at night, people think you’re rude and standoffish. Some people feel slighted if you just nod at them but say hi to someone else. It has caused all sorts drama, from “Soandso disrespected me, because I said hi to her and she just nodded” to ” the CFO never says good morning to me, but he always says good morning to IT Guy, and I think it’s because I’m older and a woman.” It is ridiculous. So I am very careful to say hello and goodbye, even if the end of the day is like the end of the Waltons.

      1. VictoriaHR*

        My workplace can be like that too with the greetings. I’m autistic and frequently am just staring at the floor as I walk, or I have a faraway look on my face. I’ve been talked to about it after people complained about getting a non-verbal greeting. Too bad, so sad, I’ve got a disability, understand it or don’t, blarg.

      2. Natalie*

        I once caught a glimpse of a memo my old boss has written to some new co-workers about everything they were doing wrong (yeah, it was not a great place). The fact that they didn’t say good morning and good night to everyone was one of the items.

  63. Newsie*

    Here’s a question – due to staff shortages, my office is currently having a lot of people fill in on other roles. One of these people filling in is Faith. Faith has done the job my colleagues and I do a few times. Her fill-in job has been to edit our work. But she edits really poorly – fact bombs, old information, and really has no sense of how our operation works at all. And basic stuff, too. I mean, she changed the word “past” in a write – as in, “the past few weeks” – into “passed.” Come on! (I have more examples but they’re highly identifying ones, so I’m trying to convert in my head to teapots. Still haven’t caught up on sleep from last week.)

    The worst part is, The Mayor of our office for some reason really champions Faith. We feel uncomfortable going to The Mayor to tell him Faith is making our job more difficult. Faith won’t be doing this long-term anymore, thank goodness – we’re back to full staffing. But she may be asked to fill in when people take time off. We’ve been changing our work back, and pushing back, when things are clearly wrong. But what can we do to make sure Faith doesn’t continue to fill in without causing a ruckus?

    And yes, I’m aware how badly I need an editor since this comment is barely legible. I just need a good one.

    1. Rex*

      Sounds like a problem that’s mostly going to solve itself, but if you are currently shielding Faith from consequences of her bad work (does the Mayor see anything she’s edited?) then maybe it is time to stop doing that.

      1. Newsie*

        I’m almost to that point, but based on previous incidents, I think I would get blamed for mistakes in my work, not Faith. My name is on the work, so “I need to take ownership.” Which is true. But counterproductive to have me editing the editor!

        1. Artemesia*

          I would think ‘taking ownership’ would mean publicly pushing back to the ‘Mayor’ about Faith undermining work quality. as in ‘My name is on this and so it is important to me that it is high quality, when Faith edits good grammar to bad for example here is where she edited my correct ‘past’ to ‘passed’, it makes me look bad and makes our office look bad. I don’t want to have to edit the editor so can we not have Faith doing this particular task since her strengths are obviously not in editing.’

          But then I made my career as the one ‘who will tell it straight’ which was luckily a valued role most places I worked since we were in the south where most people are highly indirect to the point of letting things pass that really need fixing and so I became the person who was go to on issues of quality control or honest vetting of policies. If yours is a shoot the messenger culture then that may not work. But if I have to ‘own my work’ I am going to fight tooth and nail to keep someone from making me look like an ignoramus.

    2. LMW*

      Is there someone who does do this type of work well who would work better as a fill in? Perhaps of saying “Oh, no, not Faith,” you could say something like “While Giles is out of the office next week, perhaps Tara could fill in on the editing? She’s really fantastic at it and…”?

      1. Newsie*

        There is a Tara at our office, and we definitely praise her to the skies in front of the Mayor when she’s filling in. But dealing with the Mayor requires us to be super subtle – perhaps if I’m a tiny bit less subtle and use your phrasing, that could work!

  64. Ama*

    Posting this as a separate comment from my first so it doesn’t get in the way of that thread.

    We had yearly performance reviews this week. Mine was just above lukewarm, despite me having performed clearly above average. When I asked, my manager hinted that everyone got kind of nerfed towards the middle. But still, “meets expectations” should imply there is room to grow to exceed, right? Yet when I asked him what I can do to improve, he said to just keep doing what I do, as he has absolutely no complaints about my work.

    Then why the hell doesn’t my review reflect that? It’s not any better than I had last year, when I was still new to the job and had no idea what I was doing half the time.

    This is killing any lingering goodwill I have for this department.

    Managers, please don’t force everyone to the middle of the review pack. It will definitely discourage those employees who work hard and do well and know it.

    1. Anon123*

      At my org, it has been said that nobody gets a really high review. The rumor is that it’s tied to raises/pay and they don’t have the money to give raises or bonuses or anything.

      We also bleed great people….

    2. BRR*

      Sounds like it’s done for political or financial reasons. I would kind of press on this then but by playing dumb. “I would really like to improve my performance, what do I need to do to get [higher rating].”

    3. Jennifer*

      Right, nobody gets above “meets expectations” because then they”d “have” to get raises next.

      It’s not you, it’s them. On the one hand: you’re doing well. On the other hand: you’ll never get a raise here.

    4. Ima Mgr*

      While I understand the frustration, in my head (and that of every company I’ve worked for), “nothing to improve upon” is exactly the definition of meets expectations. You don’t start to exceed until you’re doing MORE than I expect from the role. Just because you’re really good at making teapots, and you make more than anyone else, doesn’t mean you’re exceeding my expectations. Being good at your job is literally what I expect from the role. What did you initiate and lead successfully that was beyond your job description? Did you improve a process (and your job is not process improvement)? Did you identify a weakness on the team, brainstorm a solution, and then implement it? Did you collaborate with the teapot design team to help the handoff from their team to ours? Did you learn maintenance of the teapot making machine, so you reduced our downtime waiting for repairs? Those are the kind of things that make you an “Exceeds” and those are the kind of things that get noticed and rewarded.

      1. Ima Mgr*

        I should add, it also goes both ways, so the onus isn’t all on the employee. (At least, in an ideal situation.)

        As your manager, I should be regularly talking to you about your goals. If you are good at your job (or the best teapot maker on the team), I should look for ways to keep you motivated and engaged, and ensure you see a future with me/ my company. I should help you think through ways to execute these ideas, like maybe you’ve never been introduced to the teapot design team, or maybe you want to develop your brainstorm skills. I should give you regular feedback on your progress, so you’re not shocked by your year-end review.

        1. Ama*

          I have to pry feedback out of them at times. It’s frustrating to be told every time I ask that I’m doing really well, and I’ve learned all the things they’ve asked of me, and I’ve trained new employees, and I’ve written documentation to help coworkers of my own volition, overhauled previous documentation to be up to date and useful again, laid out improved procedures for the role I had most of last year… and yet I come up as mostly average in the review.

          That might be something they expect of everyone; previous role I held most of the year was fairly niche and a bit isolated. I would totally understand if that is the case. But enough people don’t do those things that I’m not sure.

    5. C Average*

      It’s the same at my company. You pretty much have to donate a kidney to the CEO to get a “highly successful,” and you have to donate BOTH kidneys to the CEO to get an “exceptional.” Just this morning my manager was lamenting to us in a meeting that she knows she can only hand out one “highly successful” in our six-person team this year due to the way rankings work, even though she thinks all of us deserve it.

    6. Ama*

      It’s kind of ironic, but shortly after I posted this, manager approached me to ask me to assist in my previous role — I’ve recently been moved to one more in line with my education and career goals. The two employees who took over my previous role have been struggling with it without my guidance, and they’re really not bad employees at all. It’s just specialized and fairly intense work.

      In four hours I cleared out two days of backlog (that much delay is a big deal; time-sensitive work) and got them back to a more manageable footing.

      Ama’s still got it.

      If the department that role supports had written my review (I don’t think they were even asked for input) it would have been glowing. They were thrilled to see me today.

  65. Looby*

    I work for a usually great company – generous salary, holidays benefits, bonuses, all the good stuff. Late last year, there was a few changes within the company that I didn’t agree with, but being a lowly employee, I had no choice but to accept them until I can find something else.

    The problem is because they have been so good to me in the past, I now overreact when they do something less than perfect that affects me in any way, however small. I’ve pretty much been pissed off for the last 3 months. But I know, if a bad employer did they same things, I’d shrug it off because I don’t have high expectations.

    Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing? The better someone treats you, the worse it is when they let you down. I am looking elsewhere and I’m trying to let things just roll off my back, but does anyone have any other tips? And just to head off the “don’t take it personally” advice, 75% of these changes directly affect me and only me, so it feels pretty personal to me.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Are you me? I am CONSTANTLY angry because of the same situation. While I don’t know exactly what the changes are, just because they only affect you doesn’t make them personal, if that makes sense. It’s a business and there are probably logical, business-related reasons behind their actions that don’t have anything to do with you. I know it’s really hard not to take things personally because I struggle with it myself.

    2. Rex*

      Do you have any friends with terrible job situations who you could listen to vent about their issues? Maybe it would give you some perspective?

  66. LizzyMay*

    I’ve recently gotten involved with a local chapter of a national charity. The local chapter has no social media at all. There is an inactive facebook page and nothing else. I’ve been chosen to build our social media presence based on the fact that I’m the only person in our chapter who uses twitter. I’m not a social media expert and I’m hoping you all can suggest some resources I can look at or share any tips. Our plan right now is to use facebook and twitter to promote our local events, share local stories and share resources from the national office. I’m the only twitter user in our group, but I only have 50 followers, so any advice would be amazing. Is there something you wish you knew before you started your social media journey?

    2. Nanc*

      Noooooo! Don’t use your personal Twitter account for the charity/chapter tweets! All the social media accounts need to be tied to and email address for the charity/chapter. And be certain you log out of your own account and into the charity/chapter one before posting! Education2Go has a pretty good class in Social Media for Business–it covers all the basic platforms. It costs but it might be a good investment career-wise as well. LinkedIn has groups around Social Media marketing and I went super-old school when I needed knowledge and checked out Social Media for Dummies from my local library.

      Finally, create a social media style guide (or ask the national folks if they have one) that includes the audience, content type, style and frequency for each platform.

    3. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

      Many years ago, I got involved with a nonprofit group called BACA and offered to build a website for their local chapter. I discovered that it was important to educate the group’s governing committee on how things were going to proceed. I gave them a schedule and said the site would be up and running by (say) April 15th. And every week they’d ask me how it was going and if it was done yet. I’m leaving a lot of details out, but in short: they didn’t really understand that I would *deliver* the site on April 15th – they seemed to think I might deliver it earlier. Every week they became a bit more unhappy with me – which, for [reasons] I didn’t pick up on. In the end I delivered the site on time, everybody loved it – but the governing committee still held something of an irrational grudge against me.

      But my point is: it’s important to educate the group on how things were going to proceed. If everyone has realistic expectations, everyone will be happier.

  67. Lady Bug*

    I have an interview next week at a company where I have a business acquaintance. I worked with her a few times and we enjoyed working together. I’d like to mention to her that I’m interviewing, I feel like it would be weird if I didn’t, but don’t want to come across like I’m asking for help. Any advice on what to say?

    1. fposte*

      Would it be so terrible if it did come across as asking for help? That’s an okay thing to do, after all.

      You could go with something along the lines of “Hi, Lucinda, I just wanted to let you know I’m interviewing at TeaCo next week, so I might see you in the building–I didn’t want to surprise you! I look forward to working with you again, whether it’s at TeaCo or elsewhere.”

      1. Rex*

        Agreed, it’s okay to ask for help! Trust me, your competition for this position is doing it. You can certainly phrase it in a way that gives her an easy out if she is not comfortable helping for whatever reason.

  68. Anonymous127*

    I’ve been at my current company for about 4 years now. After a year and a half of designing chocolate teapots, I got promoted to Chocolate Teapots Director, by the CEO/Chocolate Teapots Director—I was given that 1/2 of her title and the responsibilities to go with it. I am in charge of the creative process, and design the teapot models, manage the process during design with customers, and direct the manufacturers in the creative process when they make the models into teapots (hopefully that’s an o.k. analogy). There is also a Chocolate Teapots Manager, who was here for a few years before me, who took over some of the CEO responsibilities like payroll and PTO. This person gets the orders for the teapots and specs them out, prior to them going to me, and then manages the process after my part is done (sometimes during if it involves additional handles or longer spouts for instance). The Chocolate Teapots Manager and I have had a strained dynamic ever since I was promoted. Our processes were separate, but she would try to insert herself into my process and influence my work. It has been obvious to me for a long time that she does not like the way that I design the teapot orders. The CEO knew this, and on many occasions, had told me that this person was not my boss, and was not to be involved or have influence in my part of the process.

    Our company was acquired by another company, and the CEO left and was replaced with one who is out of state. The Chocolate Teapots Manager has been given additional responsibilities; running the office on-site, to make her, Chocolate Teapots Manager/Office Manager. Now, it would seem that this person is my boss; she has told me this.

    However, it is starting to seem like the Chocolate Teapots Manager/Office Manager is taking it upon herself to do parts of my job, specifically, directing some manufacturers in the creative process when they are making the models that I designed (which is part of my job), and giving me orders while I design the teapot models and manage the process during design. I disagree with the particular feedback, as a Chocolate Teapots Director; it doesn’t follow the models and is changing things according to how she wants the teapots designed, not how it was decided during the process of designing the models with the customers. Asking me to do something isn’t that bad (unless I really disagree), it’s really the attempted hijacking of my projects and inserting herself/doing my job that bothers me the most. This is my job—it’s what I’ve done every day for 4 years, and all of a sudden, she thinks that she can insert herself, do my job and overrule me on what I am specializing in.

    I understand being the manager/office manger is higher, but this is my part of the process that I have to answer for, and I don’t believe it is hers. However, she has told me that she has every right to do this; that it is part of her job now, that she oversees everything and that she has a teapot design background (which she wasn’t hired for and hasn’t used the whole time she has been at the company). I asked the CEO if there were any role changes and she responded with nothing that indicated for the manager to be involved in my process specifically, or any changes to my process (only the change to office manager—time, payroll, etc.). This makes me think that there is a disconnect…that she is taking it upon herself because she wants to, not because she was told to. I don’t want to push the subject or nag the new CEO, but I am tempted to ask about this specifically. For example, “I was wondering about my role specifically; is that still my role, or have there been changes to the effect of the Office Manager taking on any of my responsibilities/part of the process?”

    I don’t want to be insubordinate, but as part of the management team, I take ownership over this part of the work and don’t want it taken from me from someone who doesn’t have actual experience doing it. It feels like this person wants my job and is abusing her power. I need advice, please!

    1. Dawn*

      “I was wondering about my role specifically; is that still my role, or have there been changes to the effect of the Office Manager taking on any of my responsibilities/part of the process?”

      Just ask that. It’s not nagging, it’s just asking for crystal clarification of your job role in the wake of the CEO change. See what the new CEO says and then go from there.

      1. Anonymous127*

        Thank you for the advice. I think that I will ask that—I do need to know in order to do my job…

      1. Anonymous127*

        She complains about having too much to do, but then interferes with my work, trying to take over. I know that the CEO thinks I’m doing a great job and really likes my work, so I don’t think she has told her to micromanage me…

        If something went wrong, she would not take responsibility; it would be on me. That is part of the issue; I am not okay with catching heat for something she did wrong.

        I really think that she either wants my job, thinks she can do it better, or wants to screw up so I catch heat for it. It seems that she has tried to sabotage me in the past…

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think your boss needs to intervene here. He needs to clarify both of your roles.

      I am not sure that he is understanding how much of a situation you have on your hands. If your discussion was limited to what you describe here then he may not actually get what is going on.

      1. Anonymous127*

        I agree. The CEO is pretty hands-off right now, and says they’ll be more hands-on in the future, when less busy…

        I do think there needs to be more clarification for both roles as well. I tend to think since the CEO is basically only in contact with the Office Manager most of the time, that the manager can give the CEO whatever impression they want of what is really going on.

  69. Elizabeth*

    So, I had a really encouraging meeting with my boss yesterday. Our department (nonprofit development) is going through some restructuring, and since “[I’m] kind of beyond” what I’m currently doing (mostly special events logistics), he wants me to take on some new responsibilities–specifically prospect research/major gift coordination, which is an area our fairly-new department hasn’t tapped into much at this point. I’m thrilled because its right up my alley and the company that’s been consulting with us on the restructuring is going to train me on software, best practices, etc.

    Anyway, it’s a little thing, but it’ll be a great resume builder and it’s a direction I’m really excited to be moving in. Not a bad way to round out a week!

  70. Giving Money to Subordinates*

    So this question has been bugging me for a few days…I found out the other day my manager (Bill) gave about $20 to one of my coworkers (Fred) so he could get some cough medicine. Fred was coughing a lot and Bill asked him why he didn’t get some cough drops or something, and Fred responded that he had no money for medicine. So Bill gave him some cash.

    I feel like this is really inappropriate. However I will admit that I have a lot of negative feelings towards Fred because of his poor performance and work ethic, so I’m sure that’s coloring my view. However if Bill offered me or any of my other coworkers money, I still think it would be inappropriate…but then I myself would never tell my boss that I had no money for medicine in the first place. We work at a university and have a free health clinic for faculty and staff, and also our department’s break room has a first aid kit and some OTC medicine anyone is welcome to use, so there are options. I think Bill should have instructed Fred to use these resources instead of just giving him money.

    So…opinions? Am I being heartless because I don’t like Fred, or is giving money to your subordinates (or any coworker, for that matter) a bad idea no matter what?

    1. Lizzy May*

      If you’re heartless the I am too because that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. There’s nothing wrong with it, I guess, but I feel like adults need to act like adults and take care of their responsibilities themselves.

    3. Celeste*

      Probably not a great idea, but I can’t fault Bill for wanting to help in the moment. We’ve had a few people here with substance abuse issues, and extremely poor money management is super common with it. These people don’t seem to last. Hopefully Fred will never give him more than he can afford to lose.

    4. Rex*

      I can understand why it bothers you, but it seems to me to fall under a reasonable judgement call in the moment. It’s $20. Probably best to just let it go.

    5. Anon tomorrow*

      Sound pretty heartless to me, yeah. Whether or not it’s a smart thing to do, it sounds like it was a kindness.

      It doesn’t have anything to do with you, so try to forget about it.

      1. Giving Money to Subordinates*

        Thanks everyone for your comments. I do need to let it go…I know I’ve got my own issues with Fred (and also with Bill) so I’m sure that’s mostly why it’s bothering me so much. I appreciate the feedback!

      2. Kelly L.*

        Yeah, and I think he may have also seen it as a $20 investment in not having to hear the coughing for the rest of the day. :D

    6. Lily in NYC*

      What if instead of Fred, it was one of your favorite coworkers? If you wouldn’t have a problem with it, then you know you are just annoyed because it’s Fred. But I get it, I’m still kicking myself for loaning a coworker $60 even though I had a feeling he was shady. Still waiting for that to get paid back two years later…

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe the boss had to give Fred the $20. It was either that or kill the guy. So he opted to avoid prison.
      Sometimes we do little things like that because it solves the problem of the moment. Sometimes we over compensate our own negative feelings for a person. Maybe the boss gave him the money because he can’t stand you coworker and he feels bad about that.

      Hopefully, if you need a couple bucks for an emergency your boss would float it to you, too.

  71. just laura*

    I need help using Trello for project management for a small team of 4.

    My problems:
    *Alerting people to their duties/tasks
    *Being aware of all MY tasks (I want an individual task list view, which I don’t think exists)
    *Do I organize lists by person or project? Or do I just need more boards/lists?
    *How many boards do you typically have going for a small biz?

    Thanks for any help you can offer!

    1. Anonymous127*

      Trello has a whole example board that they start you out with that helps you along. They also have a help section located under your name drop-down, as well as a blog under the same drop-down. They explain things pretty well, and make it really easy to use.

    2. AVP*

      Are you sure you need all of this? Is it company-mandated? Is anyone remote, or are you all in the same office?

      Asking because I have a team of 5 people, and any sort of technical “organizational” thing we’ve tried to implement has only confused everything and made it harder to organize. Since we’re all in the same place, it turns out it works much better to just email and talk in person, and for each person to maintain their own to-do list. Our manager has a massive to-do list from which he delegates, and I have a smaller one from which I delegate to our assistants when necessary, but we don’t really have a problem with things falling through or pieces not getting done.

      Then again, we prioritize and hire for extremely organized, on-top-of-it people…YMMV if that’s not the case with your team and you need a closer eye on them.

      1. just laura*

        Hmm, good question– do I even need it at all? I appreciate that. Maybe not– perhaps I just need to-do lists (such as todoist) for each person to ensure that they are on their own tasks.

        Everyone is working on this business as a second job, so we need transparency in terms of, “Hey, did Bob do that thing?” Perhaps a to-do list would do that instead? What do you use for your master to-do– or is it just a list?

        1. AVP*

          Ah, the fact that it’s not your main job might alter my answer a bit. We just use the good old pen-and-paper approach, but in that case (since everyone’s not focused on it 40 hours a week) maybe something that everyone can see at once, with names next to tasks, would be helpful.

      2. Snork Maiden*

        This sounds like my work, except for that the manager doesn’t have a massive to-do list and is not very organized…I read a lot of the managing-up advice on here.

  72. Alternative*

    Hi AAM people! I received an email from Lyft (the great taxi/driving service) about a cool thing they are doing to help Dress for Success. I thought y’all would be perfect for sharing interview advice. Here is the message:

    “The day of a job interview is a big day – but for many underserved women, reliable transportation to interviews can be a challenge. To change that, we’ve partnered with Dress for Success® to donate rides so their clients can get to job interviews. And we need your help.

    Share your best interview advice on Twitter, Instagram, Vine, LinkedIn, or Facebook with the hashtag #RidesToSuccess. For each tip you share, Lyft will donate a free ride to Dress for Success until we reach our goal of 1,000.”

  73. Vixen2013*

    Hi all, I am the OP who wrote in about her alma mater closing in today’s Short Answer post. Yes, my question was regarding Sweet Briar College. Since submitting my query to Alison, we are now actively looking into ways to keep the school open. I cannot disclose all of the details right now, but suffice it to say that the board of directors made their decision prematurely. Right now, we are working to secure the funds to keep the college open. We have raised over $1 million in the past 3 days, and if anyone here can contribute any amount, it would mean so much. We are fighting not just for SBC, but for women’s colleges as a whole. You can donate at http://savingsweetbriar.com/donors/.

    1. Natalie*

      FWIW, my college went through a similar situation and the alumni movement to reopen the college independently from the system that had closed it was successful. They were closed for a few years but are graduating their first new class this May. And we have and had about a million times less money and cred than Sweet Briar.

      Good luck!

      1. Vixen2013*

        Thanks! That means a lot. I can’t even imagine what the faculty, staff and current underclasswomen are going through right now– they literally have to get a new job/transfer in 3 months.

        1. Natalie*

          Woah, that’s kind of messed up. We got a year warning – I was able to graduate, and everyone who transferred had plenty of time.

    2. OfficePrincess*

      I really hope you hit your goal and can keep the school open. Know that women’s colleges around the country (my alma mater included) are rallying behind you and are making arrangements so that if the worst happens, at least your current students have somewhere to go. Hopefully, though, it won’t come to that.

  74. Queen of Awkward*

    Ok so this is cringey / awkward but not awful… if you were my manager, how much would you care that this happened… cause I feel super awkward.

    Basically, earlier this week, in the room we go on our lunch break, there’s a partition as though it’s 2 rooms, but there’s no door and if you’re in one room, you can clearly hear what’s said in the other. I’m new-ish at this job (few months in) and was talking to a coworker at lunch earlier this week where I compared this job to my last job (my last job not being very nice).

    In the conversation, I compared our boss here to my previous boss and the gist of what I said was this: I really like my [current] boss (“Jane”) and am especially aware of this because my previous job had a stressy shouty boss which made me feel stressed out. I also admitted that my natural instinct when Jane wants to talk to me is to assume I’m in trouble and panic, but that I’m getting over it.

    I also said one thing which was neither negative nor a compliment and it was this: I said my Jane reminds me of a frog for the reason that often when I see her, all I can see is her eyes peering over her computer monitor which puts me in mind of a frog peering out from just under the surface of the water.

    I then walked into the other section of the room which contains the kettle and found Jane halfway through her lunch. So there’s an approx 100% chance she overheard me. Also, I then said ‘oh hello!’ awkwardly and went back to the other section.

    I know it seems stupid to have not looked in there previously before talking about her but it didn’t cross my mind (especially as it didn’t feel like ‘gossiping’ – particularly because I wasn’t saying anything negative. Or at least the only negative things I said were about my previous job and not particularly specific). And she usually eats at her desk.

    Also, Jane has not said anything about this to me at all, or acted any different towards me. So does she think I’m a total nutcase? (I compared her to a frog…). Or should I just forget about it and let this pass? Ps. Oops.

    Cheers.

    1. GOG11*

      I tend to be someone who makes statements that are just, to me, statements of fact and not at all value judgments. You didn’t compare any of her physical characteristics to a frog (like she has a gaping mouth and buggy frog eyes) or any of her behaviors to frog-like things (she’s slimy and twitchy). You said her peering over your computer monitor reminded you of something else that peers out of/over things. I’ll admit that I tend to think along similar lines from what you’ve expressed, but I don’t think this is insulting or awkward at all.

      If anything, she probably feels relieved that when you’re not being watched or worried about things getting back to her you gave fair answers. You didn’t take the opportunity to insult her or gossip about her. If she’s acting normal, I’d consider it fine and try not to dwell on it.

    2. Dawn*

      Let it go, and never, ever, ever, ever, ever say anything about someone else to another person in a public place that a) you wouldn’t say to their face in front of a room full of their closest friends and b) that isn’t 100% positive. Ever. Never ever. Because every. single. time. I have EVER broken those two rules it’s come back and bit me in the butt!

      1. BRR*

        Follow this advice! Also when you say it was neither negative nor a compliment it was kind of negative.

      2. Anonsie*

        Rules of life that I follow, but like extra special double for work: 1) Don’t put anything in writing anywhere ever that would get you in trouble if the wrong person saw it. 2) Do not say anything negative about anyone in a public place where you don’t know who could hear you. 3) Do not say/write/whatever personally insulting (and unrelated to work, like appearance or whatever) things about people you work with ever ever ever, and it’s a good policy to also not do that about anyone else. Though I do make an exception for stupid Gwyneth Paltrow and her stupid awful everything ugggghhhhhh.

        “You can’t get in hot water for something you never did” is like my life’s mantra.

      3. Artemesia*

        This goes for airport lounges and restaurants and places far from home; murphy’s law is always in force on this sort of thing.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I agree with both Dawn and GOG11’s comments below–but I have to admit, if I were Jane, I would have found the whole thing funny. I might have been disconcerted at first, but it is kind of funny. I probably would have looked at you and said, “Ribbit.” I actually am laughing now picturing a frog at a computer (I’m so sorry–please forgive me).

      I would imagine that if she’s acting like it didn’t happen, she either doesn’t care or just wants to avoid the awkward also. So I would just not bring it up and be careful about where you are and what you say when chatting. :)

      2. GOG11*

        OMG this is hilarious.

        I just imagined myself as Jane briefly popping up over a partition and saying “ribbit” and then going back to what I was doing…but I am an extremely awkward person at times so that’s just me.

        But that’s just me.

    4. Oh Anon*

      Just let it go. It’s probably not a big deal to new boss. I think your job PTSD is coming into play here. Calm down. However, I’d stick with “Don’t say it if you wouldn’t say it to someone’s face,” especially at work and especially to coworkers.

    5. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

      I’d try to learn from it, but otherwise let it go.

      I’m sorry to tell you this, but while you feel that your frog comment was neither negative or positive – many people would consider it a negative. Not a huge negative, but – not exactly a compliment.

      If Jane’s a decent manager, she’ll let it go, too. If she has any perspective: she was given uncensored access to what her employee really thinks of her – and that’s the worst you can say? She should be relieved.

      1. Queen of Awkward*

        Thanks for the reply. I noticed you and BRR both found the frog thing to be negative, so I’m hoping Jane doesn’t too much…. I at least don’t think my tone was negative. For some context that no one would necessarily know, I happen to particularly love frogs (I collect a bunch of frog/amphibian and also reptile themed stuff) which might be why they came to mind…

        I realise it was a bit stupid and thoughtless and I’m not normally a gossipy type so paying attention to people overhearing me wasn’t something that I thought of I guess :(

    6. Sherm*

      Remember that she probably also overheard that you really like her. I bet all is good.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Geez.

      Okay, so what you do is one day next week when you are sure she is listening again, you start talking about how much you love frogs. You think they are just coolest little guys. You absolutely love their little eyes. You have a whole collection of ceramic frogs at home because you just plain like frogs.
      Extra points for having a ceramic mini-frog on your desk.

      [Yes, I am serious. I would do this. ]

    8. OriginalEmma*

      I make these kind of unusual comparisons in my mind all the time and sometimes I voice them, but mostly I don’t because I realize they only make sense to me. Like when I first met a coworker and he just reminded me of a character from Street Fighter, so in my head that’s what I called him until I could remember his real name. I bet if I tried to explain it out loud, it’d just be insulting.

      Also, I am just thinking of Tommy Boy when he’s trying to repeat his father’s “get a good look at a T-bone steak” allegory but keeps messing it up. “No, wait, it’s gotta be your bull!”

  75. Ghost Pepper*

    Anyone ever had a dream about a coworker and then felt awkward around that coworker the next day?

    3. MaryMary*

      Yup. I also had a dream that a coworker screwed me over, and I was irrationally angry with her for months.

    4. Tris Prior*

      hahaha. Yes. Especially when the dream contained “adult content” and it was involving someone to whom I was not even a little bit attracted! ewwww.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Ugh! That happened to me in college–I had a dream about someone in my choir who absolutely repelled me in real life. I never understand that one at ALL.

    6. Lily in NYC*

      I just had a terrifying dream that my gross coworker got me pregnant! Thank god I didn’t dream about the actual “act”.

    9. Anonymous As I Wanna Be*

      Anyone ever had a dream about someone on AAM and then felt awkward seeing them post the next day?

    10. jamlady*

      I had a dream in my first week of a job about a coworker who looked like a crazy ex of my sister’s. He tracked me down (I lived 70 miles from work) and tried to kill me and my husband and basically stalked us for days. It was seriously vivid and I was ridiculously suspicious of him for 2 weeks. He’s actually the nicest guy and we’re pretty good friends now hahaha

    11. Felicia*

      Yes. Because it involved sexual content and also then seh became a zombie trying to eat my brains.

    12. Lizzie*

      Just this week! It was especially weird because it prominently featured a coworker I don’t know very well. (In the dream, I was a guest at her wedding, along with some other coworkers who I’m closer to.) It was kind of a relief that I didn’t have to talk to her the next day!

  76. Cayce*

    Apparently our CEO thinks I’m some kind of efficiency expert/fixer. I started at an entry level position and was promoted in less than a year. The new position was one that nobody else had applied for internally – the previous two people who’d held the position had made it sound like a bottomless pit of misery and despair, were always slogging through piles of documents, and it was just a mess. Long story short, I had it cleaned up and running smoothly within months. Now I’ve been asked to make a lateral transfer to another position that has the same problem. Nobody internal wants it, the person in it now is leaving after only six months. It would be great experience if I ever want to move up in our organization and I would learn a TON about our industry.

    My issue – NOBODY at my level wants to move up. They want more money, but they just laugh when asked about moving up to supervisor or manager. So I’m getting some serious shade from my coworkers about this move. They’re acting like I’m some kind of traitor and I’m just at ends here. Somebody talk me up and tell me that I’m doing the right thing!

    1. TheExchequer*

      Sounds like you’re making a great move to me. Maybe they’ve just heard horror stories about what the next level has to deal with and they’re letting that stop them? Don’t let it stop you. :)

    2. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      The key question I see in all of this is, why don’t they want to move up? Is it a general “slackers unite!” kind of vibe, and you’re being mocked for being “ambitious”? Or are there things they perceive as being real reasons that being a supervisor/manager in your workplace is particularly awful, and they’re laughing at/throwing shade on the naïve newbie who (in their opinion) doesn’t realize what she’s in for? If it’s the former, frankly, get over it – they’re co-workers, not friends or family, and whatever they think about your career choices and career development is, frankly, totally irrelevant to this decision. If it’s the latter, consider whether their perceptions about why one wouldn’t want to take on a supervisory role have any validity to them, and think about whether the things they’re perceiving as negatives are things you’re willing/able to deal with or not, and whether or not they are things that will affect your chances of success in the new role.

      But either way, this boils down to “you do you,” and ignore them.

    3. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

      Errr … wait. Is this a move “up”, or is it a “lateral transfer”? Or is it a lateral transfer that might lead to an upward promotion? And there must be some reason why “nobody” at your level wants to move “up”? Why are you a “traitor”?

      I don’t mean to be a buzz-kill, but there’s not enough information in your letter for me to tell what’s going on. Additionally, a lateral transfer (ie, no increase in salary or title) into a job that nobody wants (ie, a job that is a pain in the tookus), with (I assume) a verbal promise of the possibility of a future upward promotion? I’m sorry, but you may be setting yourself up for disappointment. I think I would at least try to convert this “lateral move” into a “slightly upward move” by asking for a raise.

      1. Cayce*

        It’s a lateral transfer. Unfortunately, due to there being a union at our facility, there is no room for raises, bonuses, or reclassifying jobs. They tried a while back (to keep a top performer) and nearly got sued.

        I haven’t been promised anything and my salary would remain the same. My current position doesn’t allow me any upward movement though. It’s a dead end unless I take a lateral move to a different department. My current position is quality control for cheap teapots, the new position would be overseeing all incoming orders for our high-end teapots as well as networking with other teapot manufacturers and vendors. The skills that I would learn in the new position would make me eligible for better jobs in other organizations as well.

        I really have no idea why nobody at my level wants to move up. They actively avoid going to training or seminars, and are all pretty content with staying where they are.

        1. reader*

          You answered your own question with the answer about raises. It’s a union. If you get paid a nice wage, are guaranteed raises, and don’t have to worry too much about being fired why do more? Also at some point you have to leave the union position to get ahead and you lose all the protections you had and have to negotiate one to one.

        2. Windchime*

          Some people just don’t want to move up. They are happy where they are and OK with doing the same thing, day after day, for literally years on end. It would make me want to stab myself in the eye with a pencil, but whatever–I am not them. Over the past couple of years, our department had an extremely generous training budget, but only half of us ever signed up or went for training. The others just weren’t interested. Why? Because they are OK doing the same thing over and over for years.

          As NSNR says, you do you. Find other people to talk with about this; people who are supportive of your career goals. Your teammates are probably very nice people, but they aren’t your tribe when it comes to the career goals you have.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think you are doing the right thing. I would just stop talking about it with my coworkers, that’s all. Find other people to talk to about it.

      I wanted to complete my degree. At that point, I worked for a place where not a single coworker saw any value in doing that. I stopped talking about it with them. I found other people to talk with.

      Good life advice really, if someone shoots down your dreams/goals (realistic dreams/goals, that is) move on. Find someone else to talk with, that first person can’t help you nor can they even support you in your endeavors.

  77. TheExchequer*

    Two questions for this thread party people.

    1. My company has recently been developing me as social media manager in addition to the customer service role I do. I dislike it. Partly because I’m a private person and don’t like the intrusiveness , partly because of the boss of marketing (who came to me one /week/ after I started to tell me I shouldn’t be making any more mistakes when she knew I had no experience), partly because I feel like I’m being strong armed into it and that’s just not something I react well to, partly because I feel my focus is now torn between customer service and social media. But it’s made my almost full time job into a completely full time job and I could use the money. My question is: Is it reasonable to negotiate for more money in my base salary in picking up these extra duties? (I’ve only been here seven months, but they’ve already added commission to my base pay about three months ago (not that they pay it on time, but that’s a different kettle of fish) and the boss who does marketing is happier now that we’re beginning to see results). For some additional context, it’s definitely an add-on: I’m spending two hours doing media and the rest of my time doing customer service (which is occasionally punctuated with spots of doing media. I find this all a bit odd, but I don’t know what I’m doing, so).

    2. My almost sixty year old mother got her official notice that they are not planning on hiring her at her school next year. (It’s a two campus school and one of the campuses is closing). She’s spent the last twelve years of teaching and is just not sure she wants to do it any more, but the pay is keeping us financially afloat. Any advice, other than having her read Alison’s amazing articles on resumes?

    1. Cayce*

      1. Not what you’re going to want to hear, but I wouldn’t ask for more money. You’re struggling as it is, and it sounds like it’s not taking up too much of your time. Wait until you’re rocking it out and then you’ll have a stronger position to ask for a raise.

      2. Unemployment, and maybe some online teaching? I have several friends who teach for University of Phoenix for extra money and it seems to work for them.

  78. Any Grant Writers Out There?*

    I’m in the process of thinking about changing careers (from law to, well, something else), and the idea of grant writing came up as a possible match for my skill set/interests. On paper, at least, it’s something I think I’d be successful at and also enjoy – it seems to combine some of the skills I already have (research skills, persuasive writing skills, presentation skills, general ability to parse/follow rules & instructions) with some of the things I’d like to spend more time on (opportunity to think/work creatively, possibly eventually an opportunity to do this on a freelance/work-from-home basis, ability to apply skills to issues/organizations I actually care about), while getting away from the things about my current career that I don’t like (basically, the daily interaction with oppositional/aggressive/irrational opposing counsel, the generally high level of conflict over every. single. thing., the inability to problem solve creatively because “that’s not how it’s done”).

    With that said, I’m well aware that the reality of a given job/profession can be very, very different from what it looks like “on paper,” and I don’t know anyone IRL who actually does this for a living, so I’d love to hear from folks who do. What do you really do? How do you like it? Am I completely off-base in my assessment of the necessary skills? Is there anything I should know before investing further in possibly making the jump (right now, I’m thinking of taking a low-cost course in grant writing at a nearby community college and then building up my skills through volunteer work while continuing at my current job)? I’m in no rush to get away from my current position – it’s the best law job I’ve had by far – but I do feel like it’s time to start laying the groundwork for other options. Thanks everyone!

    1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

      I’m currently on a committee that is applying for a HUGE grant; it’s definitely hard, especially if it’s something new to you and you don’t have a team! I’m incredibly grateful we have the work divided up between multiple individuals. The language of grants can be confusing, so I’d definitely recommend looking some up in the field you’re looking to write grants for, and skim through the setup of some and do some practice write-ups. Taking the course at your local CC is an awesome step to take as well. Pursuing it as a hobby/additional option doesn’t seem like a bad idea!

    2. GOG11*

      I did grant writing on a freelance basis for a while and I built my portfolio by doing volunteer work for a year and a half before that. I loved the actual work and had some success, but I was terrible at the freelance aspect – advertising myself, managing client expectations, etc. I was very young, though, and I am pretty risk averse. I think if you’re already a full-fledged professional, those items may be easier to navigate. For me, it just felt like this impossibly steep learning curve for me and I didn’t have the means to invest in working through it.

      I’m almost reluctant to suggest this because you probably know your field a lot better than I do, but could you look into mediation or another alternative to litigation? You say that you’d like to get into more creative (and presumably client-driven/client-focused) problem solving methods and there are alternatives out there. Would anything like that interest you?

      1. Any Grant Writers Out There?*

        Mediation/alternatives to litigation really just aren’t that different from litigation – still contentious, still adversarial, still only resolvable in a very limited range of ways. Never mind that, in my area, retired judges and law partners have cornered the market on mediator/arbitrator jobs, so I’m about 40 years too young to break into that field.

        My dissatisfaction with law basically boils down to being tired of fighting for a living, which is what lawyers, at heart, do. I’m happy to advocate/persuade, but direct combat? No thanks. Not anymore. I do appreciate the suggestion though!

        1. GOG11*

          Oh, that’s unfortunate. I hope you’re able to find something that’s a great fit for you, grant writing or otherwise :)

          1. Any Grant Writers Out There?*

            Thanks! I’m definitely not in dire straits or anything like that – in fact, my job situation is mostly pretty decent. It’s more of a feeling of “if I’m already this sick of this now, there’s no way I can keep doing this for 20 years, so perhaps medium-term exit planning is in order.” And I so appreciate your thoughts on the freelance aspect of things – it’s an idea that appeals to me in theory, but it sounds like I’d want to really take my time setting things up before diving in.

            1. GOG11*

              I think that is a crucial piece of it that I was missing – with 20 years of working for “the man” comes experience/skill AND the drive to make a change that comes from being sick of doing what you’ve always done. I was lacking both of these and I think they really would make a difference.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I am surprised by what you say about mediation, but it makes sense. I thought that people who went to a mediator were ready to meet in the middle. I guess not.
          You say they are resolvable in a very limited range of ways. Can you give an example of those limits?

          1. Any Grant Writers Out There?*

            I know I’m late to respond here, but basically, what I meant by “limited range of ways” is that mostly the solution available (unless you’re talking an employment-type dispute where there may be some sort of “what job am I doing/can I do a different one” component, or a family law context where there are things like property ownership and child custody at issue) is money. We can talk about how much money, we can talk about on what schedule one party will pay the other party the money, but at the end of the day, the available solutions all boil down to “someone gives someone else money and then the case ends.” There’s nothing creative about it, unless you count telling one guy to pay more than the initial offer and/or telling the other guy to accept less than the initial ask as “creative.” I don’t mean to devalue it – it’s a useful process in certain contexts, it’s just that for me, given my experience and practice area, moving to a more mediation-based practice wouldn’t change the parts of my job I don’t like.

            (Side note, although I’ve never practiced anywhere else so I can’t say for sure, I do think my experiences are influenced in part by the geographic area where I live, and that moving to a radically different part of the country could likely make law practice more palatable for me. I’m locked in geographically for other reasons though, so that option’s off the table.)

    4. Well*

      The short answer is that the skillset depends on what you’re grant writing for. Are these federal grants? foundation grants? do you want to write grants for scientific research? universities? direct-service nonprofit organizations? It’s a big field and people tend to specialize a bit. Sometimes subject-matter expertise is quite important; sometimes, the ability to write persuasively is much more important.

      One thing that I think is frequently overlooked by newbies, though, is the extent to which (as in everything else in life) relationships matter a great deal. You can have the most beautiful, persuasively written proposal ever with all of your Ts crossed and Is dotted, with an excellent evaluation model that proves the cost-effectiveness of whatever you’re proposing…and your application will probably still lose to the guy who’s not the most amazing writer, but who spent the last 12-18 months waging a very careful relationship-building campaign with the decision-makers — meeting with them, introducing them to the organizational leadership, getting them excited about the program in advance of applying, etc.

      I don’t mean to be completely dismissive of grant writing – it’s a huge chunk of my job, and something I really enjoy. Excellent writers of any kind are rare, and excellent grant writers even less so. But people frequently assign a lot of weight to the actual application process, when – at least in my experience – it’s often only a small factor.

  79. Anon new grad*

    I just got an offer from a Fortune 500 company in my desired field, YAY! Here’s the problem: how should I approach salary negotiation? My campus’s career services pretty much flat-out says that you shouldn’t negotiate an entry-level role, unless you have another offer which you can ask them to match. I was going to ignore their advice, try to follow Allison’s instead, and name a range that’s 10-15% higher and then work from there (my true target would be getting about a 8-9% bump). Is this totally out of line for a new college grad? The offer itself is pretty fair, although salary research indicates that it’s on the low end of the range. Other compensation is excellent, so vacation days are a non issue. Two possibly relevant factors, I interned for 1.5 yrs (at multiple companies, so lots of 3-5 month stretches, although I spent more than 6 months at a direct competitor of the company) during college. Also, my role once I reach the company hasn’t been clearly defined. The 8 possible positions are under the general umbrella of Teapot Making, but each could be very different. My point in bringing this up is that a Teapot Designer in the real world would almost certainly be paid more than a Teapot Painter , so I wouldn’t want to accept the salary of a Painter when I’m doing the work of an Designer. Any help or advice would be very helpful! I saw the post earlier this week about new grad negotiation, but any specific feedback would be greatly appreciated.

    1. GOG11*

      I was the person who asked the question and I don’t have advice, but I am curious about the offer being extended for one of eight positions…can you ask some clarification about what your job duties would be and then negotiate if that job poses significant challenges that make the offer less than fair?

      Again, I don’t have a ton of experience so maybe there is a field where this is common, but it seems like that late in the hiring process you’d know what your specific job would be.

      1. Anon new grad*

        I don’t think this is terribly common within my field, no. I’m going to bring it up to my HR contact, perhaps they have assigned me a particular team but just haven’t gotten around to informing me. During one of my interviews, the interviewer starting talking about how they’re not sure exactly what they’re going to need yet, so the person(s) coming on board will have to be flexible. So I get the impression that I’m signing up as a general Teapot Maker, under the “New and Developing Teapot Maker Talent Program” but may be thrown into Teapot Design if that’s what they need when I officially start. Who knows. Hopefully HR can give me some clarity.

      2. Judy*

        It’s not terribly unusual for larger companies to hire new graduate engineers into a pool, and have them rotate between departments every 3 months for their first year. Then they “interview” again and get placed into a real job.

        As I said earlier in the week, usually larger companies have a formula for deciding the salaries of the new graduate engineers.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      It’s not true that you can’t or shouldn’t negotiate as an entry-level hire–it just means that you don’t have a lot of leverage. (There are a lot of “this is what we pay our new hires” places out there)

      sounds like you’ve done your research on the industry standard (have you checked salaries on glassdoor to see if this company is always low?). I would make sure to clarify the role you’ll be accepting and based on what you hear, (designer vs. painter), make your case for a higher starting salary based on your prior experience. I don’t know what the field is, so I couldn’t say whether or not 10-15% more is outrageous to ask for. But it shouldn’t result in a rescinding of the offer.

      1. Artemesia*

        Always negotiate. I did it 40 years ago and believe me the pittance I got ahead of my co-worker hired at the same time really worked out to a lot over the course of a career — I started higher and thus was able to move further and higher. You need to know what the range for the position is and then let them know you know that and that you hope to start mid range or towards the top of the range because you have X experience, already bring y level of skill and feel you will make Z kinds of contributions that a rank beginner doesn’t bring. Most people I know who have done this have started with a little more than the initial offer. It doesn’t always work, but it works often enough to be worth it. If they come back with a flat refusal, often they will temper that with ‘we will review for raises in June’ or whatever — or if not you can ask when these assessments are made and be proactive. It is a fine line, especially for women as their ‘pushiness’ is not as rewarded as men’s ‘initiative’ but it works often enough to do it. I think someone who doesn’t make any attempt to negotiate sends a message of weakness.

  80. Chairman of the Bored*

    Can your employer make you come into work when you’re sick, even if you have PTO/sick days? I work in a library and was told that because on one particular day of the week, there’s no one else to cover my shift, I would have to go in to work. My boss actually said, “You can sit around the corner from the main desk and put your head down on the other desk, or go lie down in the staff lounge.” Well, I’m coming down with something, and my one particular day is coming up, and I’m worried. I can’t believe they don’t have any backup plan in place. What if I were in the hospital? I mean, WTH?

    Is this even legal?

    1. fposte*

      As far as I know it’s legal. It’s stupid, though. Can you find somebody to cover your shift yourself?

      1. Chairman of the Bored*

        Actually, no. There’s a person that comes in after my shift, but she can’t cover it because that would mean a 13 hour day for her. And then there’s the guy whose day off it is, and I think he’d go through the roof unless it was a dire emergency (like a death in my family). If I’m really bad enough, I’ll call my manager at home and just tell him. If I can’t get out of bed or something, it’s really not my problem–it’s his.

    2. GOG11*

      I’m sorry you’re stuck in this position. I keep thinking that you could address coverage and the fact that coming in while sick isn’t always an option (as you mentioned, sometimes people become hospitalized) but it feels like one of those things that is a basic assumption people either operate under or they don’t and bringing it up won’t do any good.

  81. Two Q Anon*

    I got a problem that I need help figuring out. Even more, there are two.

    I got diagnosed with an disabling mental illness (PTSD) after applying to a few companies, and will be starting weekly treatments over a few months. I’ve been asked for a interview for these jobs and I’m not sure exactly how to bring up that I’m going to missing 1-2 hours a week (though I don’t mind making them up) if they hire me. I’m afraid it’ll look bad if their new employee has a doctor’s appointment every week and is missing work. Is there anything I should say in the interview to help my chances on getting a job despite having a weekly doctor’s appointment that will make me lose work?

    Another issue is that I have two jobs that I’m in the running for. One is part time from the place I volunteer at and the other is not. In the event I have to decide between the two jobs, I choose the full time job. However, I have a reference I use from the part time job and I’m afraid of looking bad if I turn down the part time job or leave within a few weeks for a full time job and lose my reference. What can I do in the situation?

    1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      Don’t say anything about the weekly appointment until you have an offer. At that point, raise it in an as “this is no big deal” way as possible – something along the lines of “I have a weekly medical appointment that I need to attend on DAY at TIME – is that something that you could accommodate, schedule-wise, for someone in this position? I don’t expect the treatment or condition to impact my work in any other way, and I’m happy to make up the missed hours at another time.” You don’t have to get into what the treatment is for, so don’t stress out about that part of it – it’s not all that different from someone who, say, has a childcare or eldercare obligation that requires their hours to be shifted around a little bit, and for many companies it’s going to be no big deal.

      On the second question, I doubt it’ll jeopardize your reference if you turn down the PT job in favor of a FT job – you can definitely say something like “I really like thisplace and enjoy my volunteer work here, but I’ve received an offer for full time employment and that’s the opportunity I’ve decided to pursue,” and the average person wouldn’t find that at all troublesome. Starting and then leaving in a few weeks is likely to burn the reference (because even if you part on the best possible terms, they’re still going to tell anyone who contacts them that you left in a very short period of time), but overall, I still don’t think this is the worst situation in the world – it’s completely understandable that a person would turn down or leave part-time employment when a full-time opportunity presents itself.

      1. Florida*

        Agree with Purple Monkey about waiting until after you have an offer. When you do bring it up, make it seem like it’s not a big deal. The only thing I want to add is that, because this is a bona fide disability as defined by ADA, your employer is required to give you reasonable accommodations. Adjusting your hours to allow you to make this appointment is a reasonable accommodation.

        Don’t go into the situation ready to fight because you likely will not need to. But do some research on ADA, so you have the information should you need it.

        BTW, I get weekly allergy shots (which is not covered under ADA). I have never ever had an issue with it. I’ve never had an employer or co-workers who cared that I came in about an hour late once a week because I was getting a shot.

        1. Natalie*

          Yeah, I’m torn over whether it makes sense to present it as a formal ADA issue right away (not combatively, of course) because otherwise they might decline to accommodate you for their own convenience or attempt to rescind their accommodation later. But if that turns out to not be necessary, then using the ADA is kind of overkill.

          1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

            I think if you include the phrases “medical appointment” and “is this something you can accommodate” in the initial ask, any reasonably savvy company will be hearing the ADA flag without having to turn it into an immediately-confrontational thing.

            I think the need to specifically identify the ADA issue by name is more likely to come up after OP is already employed, if at some point her scheduling needs change or the employer reneges on an agreement to honor the medical appointments.

            2. Florida*

              I agree. I wouldn’t bring up ADA unless you have to. Many employers will grant you the accommodations if you just present it as a simple request (particularly if it’s not something that costs them money). It’s very likely that Two Q’s employer will let him go to his appointments when he first asks just because it’s not a huge burden to anyone and it’s something a decent company would do, whether the law requires them to or not.

              It’s only if they say no to your initial request, then I would ask what the procedure is to get ADA accommodations. Sometimes just by asking how you go about requesting the accommodations, the employer will change their mind. If they don’t, then fill out the form or whatever.

              I have worked with a lot of people with disabilities, and have requested accommodations for myself. The people who are pleasant in their initial request get much further than the people who threaten a lawsuit immediately.

              I’m not sure if I should’ve even brought ADA up because it probably won’t get to that point. I just want TwoQ to be armed with the information should he need it.

        2. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

          Also, quick caveat to Florida’s point – while OP’s situation is definitely covered by the ADA, adjusting hours is not automatically a reasonable accommodation. “Reasonable accommodation” depends on the requirements of the job and the needs of the employer. If OP was applying for the position of “the one and only guy who rings the opening bell at the NY Stock Exchange” and was seeking to arrive an hour late once a week, that’s arguably not a “reasonable” accommodation in that specific position because she’d be unable to perform an essential function of the job 20% of the time. With that said, I do agree that in the average office job, needing one or two hours a week for a medical appointment is generally going to fall into the “reasonable accommodation” category.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      One additional thought: If your appointments can be at the same time each week, that would be a good thing. And if you can schedule the appointment to have the lowest impact on your time at work. Maybe you can do it at the end of the work day.(I can’t picture going to your appointment and then going to work. That would suck.)

      Punchline- if you could say “I would schedule the appointment strategically so it will have the least amount of impact on my time at work.” that might work to your advantage.

  82. Tau (UK)*

    Here’s a question! I’m currently applying for jobs and one of the application forms gives you a list of social media sites and asks you to tick off those you use. I have an account on one of those sites for online hobbies and the like which I in no way want any prospective employer to find, ever. I go to some effort to keep it separate from my real name and professional identity – I’m about 99% sure that they wouldn’t be able to find it from any personal info of mine – and I would not talk about my work on it.

    When they ask this question, is this a “we want to track you down and go over everything you do online with a fine-tooth comb”, or a “we want to know whether you are reasonably social media-savvy”? Do I open myself to being asked what, precisely, it is I do on $website? On the other hand, do I come off as out of touch if I only tick those sites where I’m fine with them finding my account… or run the risk that they can accuse me of lying on my application if it later comes out I do use the other sites?

    My current idea, FWIW, is to just tick all the sites I’m reasonably familiar with and use even irregularly – sure, I’ll check out something on Twitter every month or two, let’s tick that – and drown them in the noise. Not sure if it’s a good one.

    (Also: ‘is it legal?’ is truly a widespread problem. I asked a friend about this and she basically went “well the REALLY #1 IMPORTANT THING is: you have to find out whether it’s legal for them to ask that!” I went “uh… I’m not sure knowing that would actually help, I think it’d be more useful for me to figure out *why* they’re asking it and what they plan on doing with the information…”)

    1. AVP*

      Are you applying for types of jobs where you might conceivably use those platforms? (Marketing, copywriting, development, etc…) If not, I would hope that it’s just a standard question they ask everyone and they’re not going to check up.

      But maybe you could use that same site that you currently use and make a separate, innocuous account with your name and post a few boring things on there so they won’t think to look any deeper?

      1. Tau (UK)*

        No, but – thinking about it – this is a very big company with a variety of entry-level jobs and the same application form for each, so it’s pretty likely some people *would* be expected to use these platforms. That might be the explanation…

        And I’m definitely thinking about creating an innocuous account, although I’d prefer not to if I can avoid it… it’d be another account I have to keep track of and I’m pretty invisible on Google as it stands, which is nice.

    2. BRR*

      I would recommend you check off anything you do use. If they find out later it’s lying on you application and most employers frown on that.

      There are some states I believe which they can’t check social media accounts. If they want to see I would then push back and you’ll need to decided if it’s a deal breaker. To me if they insist on checking your Facebook or whatever you could be dodging a bullet.

      1. Tau (UK)*

        These are both very good points. I’m in the UK and I’m not sure of the legality of that kind of thing here, but in some sense it doesn’t matter much. If they demand to know the details of my online activities even after I do a polite none-of-your-business deflection (“eh, it’s to do with a hobby of mine and not related to my professional life, what were you saying about job duties earlier?”) or demand to have me log them into my Facebook account or something, that *is* a dealbreaker for me – I don’t want to work for a company who wants to play Big Brother when it comes to what I do in my own time. Probably best to figure that out from the start!

  83. Tara*

    Does anyone know if there are any laws or anything about inappropriate behaviour between a boss and an underage-but-over-the-age-of-consent employee? A bunch of my friends work at a local movie theatre, and they all hate the boss but I assumed it was just typical grumbling. However, a girl who I don’t know as well recently mentioned that this guy (in his late 30s) is always texting her about non-work related things. Nothing sexual, just “Hey, what’s up?”, “How was your day?”, general kind of inane chatter. Our French teacher (who was eavesdropping on the conversation) told her she should tell him clearly to cut it out, but she’s worried he’ll fire her.

    Now, I know this doesn’t escalate to the level of sexual harassment or anything as is. I don’t even know for sure if that’s his intention– maybe he just wants to be buddies and doesn’t get that it’s not particularly appropriate. But if it does turn sexual, is that illegal? I know teachers aren’t allowed to have sex with their students, and I feel like this is a similar situation maybe. I think she’d feel more confident laying down boundaries if she knew at what point he’s actually getting into legally grey area. Or, any ideas about a nice, hopefully non-job-ending way of asking your boss to leave you alone outside of work?

    I’m in BC, Canada BTW.

    1. Florida*

      Not a lawyer, but I believe if it is two consenting adults, it’s not illegal. If they starting dating, then breakup, but still work together, then they could have some problems (but not necessarily legal issues). It’s not always sexual harassment, it depends what the two of them do and say.

      1. some1*

        The age of consent exception is when the older person is in a position of authority, like a teacher or supervisor. So yes it’d be illegal if it turned sexual.

        And this guy is still gross even if none of the texts are sexual.

          1. fposte*

            Oh, duh, Tara said she’s in BC, so presumably you were stating how it is in BC, which I don’t know.

          2. Felicia*

            The age of consent is federal in Canada, and it’s 16. But when one person is in a position of authority, it is raised to 18. So anywhere in Canada if this turned sexual it would be illegal.
            Also either way this guy comes across as creepy.

        2. Anonsie*

          This varies from place to place in the US, not sure about Canada. Here it varies by state and who is considered an authority figure varies as well.

      2. Lily in NYC*

        If he’s the boss and it turns sexual and is unwelcome, then it’s sexual harassment. I’d be so tempted to scare the crap out of him if I were her and tell him that my dad or big scary boyfriend saw the texts and was worried that something was going on.

      3. Anonsie*

        Oh for the love of god. There is no way in higgity heck that a 30-something supervisor is just innocently interested in what their 17 year old subordinate is up to at any given time. Maybe he knows better than to actually try to push past the buddies boundary, but that doesn’t mean that isn’t behind his desire to be friendly.

    3. Natalie*

      IIRC your labo(u)r boards are a little more active there, aren’t they? Is there maybe someone she could ask there?

    4. Tara*

      Thanks! I think I will mention that him sleeping with her may be illegal, just because I think it will make her feel a bit more confident in her own freaked-out instincts, and encourage her to talk to her mom about the situation in general.

      1. Andrea*

        She should consider what her personal boundaries are and hopefully she can find ways to enforce them – if she doesn’t want social contact with a manager twice her age I hope she can find a way to say no. It’s possible he’s boundary testing with texts and will back off if she pushes back. If she doesn’t push back now, is she going to be able to say no to more aggressive advances in person? Maybe you could help her talk through some scenarios so she can decide what the stakes are for her (does she lose her apartment without the job?) and she can practice some ways of saying no.

      2. Felicia*

        It would most definitely be illegal in Canada, which i hope makes her feel more confident.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      May or may not apply here: Around here if you see 30 year olds hanging out with teens it can be because they are selling drugs. Yes, tell her to talk to her mom.

  84. Oh Anon*

    So, this week I had a telephone interview for an office manager position. I’m curious if this is normal and what I could have done better. It feels like it was a disaster. The interviewer was a consultant hired by Company X. I prepared the night before, researched Company X, the interviewer & their company, and went through AAM’s guide. So, the next morning, the interviewer calls AN HOUR early, even though we agreed on a specific time, in a specific time zone. This meant I had no time to review notes & have that extra cup of coffee to wake up. To start the interview she tells me she has no job specific information, but several questions for me and proceeds to ask several questions, including “What qualities would you bring to the company?” “Tell me a time when scheduling was important?” “How do you keep client relationships?” I answer each question, as she asks, and ask if she would like me to elaborate on anything because she is staying deathly quiet. Her answer was always no and goes on to the next question. At the end of the 15 minute or so “interview” she asks if I have any questions. I’m stumped as to what I could have asked, as she specifically stated she had no job specific information, which I verified at this point. She tells me no, that I will have to talk to the CEO if/when he decides he’s interested & calls me. (Super! But how do I know I’m interested?!) She isn’t an employee of the hiring company, so she doesn’t have any insight into how they run. What could I have asked here? Also, please tell me this wasn’t a “normal” telephone interview? If it is, how the heck can I prepare better?

    1. LizzyP*

      Sounds a little wacky to me. .. was this maybe just an initial phone screen and not a real interview? I don’t understand all the secrecy… but it is a challenge out there with interviewing. Good luck!

      1. Oh anon*

        Yeah, the whole thing just seemed “off” to me, so much so that I did some research to make sure she was actually working for a legitimate company, who was actually hired by Company X. Thanks for the good luck wishes!

  85. LizzyP*

    Any advice for how to deal with a micromanager? There have been no issues with my performance and this is not just work related, she seems to think I should be at my desk at all times and when I take lunch (I have to take one hour unpaid) she always seems to get upset in not around when she wants me to bring something into a meeting she’s in. She now wants me to set a time for lunch each day, instead of going when works between meetings.

    She had pulled me off a conference call for an unscheduled brainstorm meeting for hours.

    I could really use some ideas on how to get this woman off my back. She keeps interupting my work, to resend her things she has in her email… I send her weekly updates, I update the task list she had for me online, she always thinks o have nothing to do. .. i don’t want to go on and on listing examples .. I’m not sure how to deal with this and would appreciate some help. Thanks.

    1. GOG11*

      Are these things you could ask her about? From your phrasing, you’re inferring some things here and your inferences may or may not be right.

      “She seems to think I should be at my desk at all times and when I take lunch.” – Depending on where you are and your employment status (US, non-exempt), you have to be paid for the time you’re doing work. Could you look up labor laws in your area and see what they say about working off the clock? Then, address it with her from the angle of “Labor laws are pretty clear about X and I don’t want us to get in trouble.”

      As for scheduling your lunches, could you address it with her? It’s possible it is important for her to know when you’ll be in and when you won’t, but she may not realize that a benefit of a flexible lunch time is that you can work it in around other work commitments (or she may know this and being able to anticipate your movements is more important than the flexibility your current lunch arrangement allows).

      Also, you say that you feel she assumes you don’t have enough to do despite your updates and task list. Has she explicitly stated this? If you’re feeling over loaded, could you say something to the effect of, “I’ve been focusing on X and Y. If I focus more on new task Z, what makes most sense for X and Y?” If it isn’t so much that it’s too much work and more about feeling as though your current accomplishments aren’t being acknowledged or you aren’t being given enough feedback, maybe that is something to ask about, too.

      It seems like you take ownership over your tasks so it’s hard to be responsive to her when it means letting other items (like the conference call or being available for various meetings throughout the week) slip through the cracks. Is there a way you and your boss could get on the same page about where your focus should be?

      1. LizzyP*

        Thanks for taking the time to reply. Perhaps I haven’t expressed myself well in an effort to be brief and honestly because I’m frustrated.

        She has explicitly asked me if I’ve had enough to do after a few days of meetings where she has given me a list of tasks in each meeting and I also work for someone who reports to her. She seems to be suspicious about what I’m doing all the time, when I have a list of tasks that she and i review weekly.

        She also has me work with a team on another floor so if I’m not at my desk for a moment, I’m not far and I’m not long. And even though I had asked to work through lunch that is against policy. So if I have a meeting with her at 1:30 I will take my lunch before, especially because a one hour meeting with her can and has many times turned into 3-4 hours and the one time I was planning to take lunch after I was scolded when i asked to put the time in for payment OR to leave early on another day since she gets crazy about hours.

        So while I’m taking lunch she emails me to bring a document into a meeting she is in and I’m not at my desk. So I feel a bit like no matter what I do it is always a problem. I was never told to be at my desk at all times so she can grab me whenever she wants, I’m not used to that at all. If she wants a set time for lunch then fine, but I don’t feel she respects my work regardless. She is near my desk going over something with someone else and I’m trying to focus on a project for her that needs proofreading and she’ll keep saying I didn’t send her something (when I did) so I have to dig up that email and resend. She didn’t see something, i “never sent her the detail on teapot pricing”… again let me dig up that email. She’ll ask about something else, I’ll have to stop yet again to find what she needs… she’ll be in a meeting and come out with a few things to be researched in 15 mins before her next meeting… it’s all very inefficient… but when it comes time to send her an update, I can’t say that she keeps interupting me. Or that she doesn’t remember the emails I send. It’s a difficult situation. It was making me crazy until I was told by others that they have issues with her as well but they don’t work for her. So now I’m just looking for ways to survive until I can find something else. I mean she asks to be BCC on certain emails so they can be filed by her admin but she critisizes almost every single one. Feedback from one is different from another dealing with the same issue so I feel like she’s on a power trip really and if she wants me to use specific language why not tell me? And I’m starting to feel like I have to work to defend myself from her and not so much to do my best anymore because everything is a problem.

        1. Well*

          Ah, this does sound more micro-manager-y than your initial post, so take my reply below with that having been said.

          A couple of thoughts:

          First, on how to deal with conflicting feedback: raise it with her directly. “Hey, do you have a minute? When I emailed Jill and gave her the details on all the different teapot pricing brands, you thought that was too much detail. Then when I emailed Bob and didn’t, you said that was too little. Can you help me understand when that much detail is appropriate and when it’s not, so I know when to include more or less? Just want to get it right going forward.” Make sure when you deliver this, you’re earnest about it. You want your body language and tone to convey “I am trying to seriously address your concerns and just need some guidance here” and not “WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME YOU MISERABLE HARPY”.

          Then, when she does, thank her for the guidance. Follow that template consistently: whenever you get conflicting messages from her, cite the examples and ask her for specifics. By asking her to spell out the difference, you’re telling her that the details matter to you, too, and you want to get them right.

          My advice below – that she seems to think your role is to act as her admin or PA, and you seem to think otherwise – still stands, though, and I would pursue getting clarity on that with her (and then, if the ‘clarity’ is ‘yes, you’re supposed to act as her admin/PA’ I’d like for another job if that’s not what you want to be.)

          1. LizzyP*

            Thanks, she was actually so critical and confusing on the details around some emails I had to send the other day that I had to start emailing her beforehand cause I couldn’t make sense of the feedback and could not keep sending messages out to get zapped immediately afterwards.

            That is the key, thanks, getting clarity workout showing my frustration. She has an admin and I used to be an EA in the past but this role is different, more of coordinator, more project based so when she keeps pulling me away from my work, for tasks that I almost feel she is splitting between her admin and I it concerns me that later she could say I’m not delivering on the projects assigned to me. It’s becoming the rule, an every day thing now, and not the exception.

            Yes I am looking, appreciate the support, to top it off she can be quite nasty and life is too short for this.

        2. GOG11*

          Is there a reason why certain tasks are handled by you as opposed to her admin (i.e., why isn’t she asking her admin to pull up her emails?)? Is she the only person who manages your work or are you managed by someone else and she uses you as a consultant (among other things)?

    2. Graciosa*

      Wanting to know when you’re available and when you’re not is not actually that unreasonable, and lots of people have scheduled lunch hours so this really doesn’t read as micromanagement to me.

      I think the two of you have a fundamentally different idea of what the job is. She thinks you should be predictably available for her current priorities (which may be resending an email so she doesn’t have to look for it). You think you should be delegated or assigned tasks and left alone to do them without being interrupted for things like finding emails or unscheduled strategy sessions that you don’t think are important.

      I’m not optimistic that this is easily solvable other than as I set out below. The reason is that if you solve one item (lunch scheduling, task list, whatever) another one will come up because she believes you work for her and should be available to do what she needs. You believe you should be treated as an independent and trusted professional with your own work to manage.

      I think your choices are:

      1. Talk to her. Tell her what is important to you (flexible scheduling or control over your schedule, uninterrupted blocks of time for work, whatever) and ask if that’s something that is workable in this job. If so, great. I don’t think that will happen, however, which brings you to the other options.

      2. Suck it up. Decide to accept that this is the job and that you want to do it as it is currently configured (including whatever you were able to negotiate using option 1). Resolve to do it cheerfully because you (not your boss) will be miserable otherwise.

      3. Decide you can’t do the job and find another one. I know this is easier said than done, but the employer generally defines the job (within some legal limits that don’t seem to be in play here). You control whether or not you want to work in that job at that employer.

      I suspect that you have the idea that there are some magic techniques that will change your boss’ idea of the job (and therefore her resulting behavior) to match yours. There are not. Sometimes you can deal with isolated matters (boss wants daily updates and you want weekly and you negotiate a compromise) but this doesn’t sound like an isolated issue. The success rate for changing other people’s behavior is generally pretty low, and it’s even less likely when you’re trying to change your boss.

      I don’t mean this to be depressing – I think facing the situation, having the conversation and making a decision can be incredibly freeing, and much better than constant stress.

      Good luck.

      1. LizzyP*

        Thanks for taking the time to reply. I wasn’t looking for magic, just perhaps some tools on how to survive in an environment where your manager doesn’t trust you and doesn’t allow you the time and space to complete the projects assigned to you. This is new to me. I may not have explained myself well in an effort to be brief and because I’m tired of talking about it. It’s not so much that she wants me to resend something because it’s easier, it’s because she accuses me of never sending it. I’m doing my best to suck it up for now until I do find something else because I don’t work well with someone who doesn’t remember things and has a suspicious and accusatory way of requesting it, easily saying ‘you didn’t send’ or ‘I never got’ when is sitting in her email. It’s making me feel like I have to triple document what I do, when, for how long instead of how to do my best in the position. And that’s not how I want to spend most of my waking hours. So more updates and daily work on the task list (she had told me she would assign priority numbers to things on the task list when I told her I never had one before with other managers and she of course didn’t do get part), copying her on emails more than I usually copy my manager and just brace myself for her criticism – I’m hoping will help. I don’t really walk away from my desk much so the attitude when I’m not available immediately seems excessive. She gets upset that I keep other groups in the loop when she told me to be our liason, but what she wants is for me to keep track of my requests of them and if they reply. They appreciate info but have told me to protect myself from her if I have to. She wants me to do their tasks because she isn’t happy with how they do them but doesn’t tell me or anyone else this so when I meet to touch base with others and report back she gets upset I’m not doing their work, and I’m not empowered to take it from them, they have their own managers.

        So no magic, just some survival tools to deal with someone like this until I can move on. Thanks again for your reply, I’m struggling with this situation and having a hard time figuring out what to do.

        1. Graciosa*

          I’m not sure that the issue is micromanagement as much as a disorganized and mistrustful boss. Certainly keep documenting (for duplicate emails, I would be forwarding the email I sent her originally – or answering her cheerfully in person, “I sent that on the 23rd at 9:03 a.m. – do you want me to reforward?”) but I think you need to think about options 2 and 3 – with an emphasis on 3.

          I’m sorry you’re in this situation – good luck.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          This won’t help with everything but it may help with one thing.
          When she gives you instructions, repeat them back to her. “So you want me to do A not B.”
          When she calls you on it, remind her that you asked to make sure you understood. “I said to you, ‘you want me to do A, not B’ and you said yes, that was correct. It does not matter to me which one I do, but I need to know which one you want.”

    3. Well*

      A set time for lunch isn’t all that unusual (or unreasonable).

      Also, just a note that I don’t think the behaviors you’re describing are what people typically mean when they say “micromanagers”. She might be inconsiderate, yes.

      But honestly, it sounds to me like she just views the responsibilities of your role as revolving much more around assisting her than you do – that’s why she feels free to pull you off calls, to interrupt your work flow to ask you to resend her stuff, to get you to bring her stuff for meetings, etc — in her mind, being available to do that stuff IS your job. It doesn’t sound like that’s what you think, and it might be worth having a conversation to clarify the expectations.

      Also, I know you say that there are no performance issues, but typically “it doesn’t seem like you have enough to do” isn’t something bosses say about their high performers (when they do, it’s usually framed in more positive terms, like “you’re knocking it out of your park with your existing work load, so I’d like you to also do X, Y, and Z.”) So I’d consider if you think your boss would agree that there are no performance issues.

    4. Golden Yeti*

      I’m in a somewhat similar situation.

      I don’t keep my manager out of the loop, but generally I only reach out to her for actionable items: “What do you want to do about this?” or “I need help with this,” etc. I don’t send weekly updates on everything because she already puts her nose in anything she can, and at times it can be counterproductive. I’m a little concerned that by giving her an excess of information, you may have inadvertently been providing her an excess of things she can micromanage, if that makes sense. But now, because you’ve set that standard of weekly reporting, you may not be able to go back. Far as being away from your desk, you may need to start telling her when you’re about to leave for your lunch break and making sure she doesn’t need anything before you go.

      I’m thinking this may be one of those situations where you have to either grin and bear it or get out.

  86. No Name For This One*

    I work part-time for my family business. Several people in the family work in the teapot business. I work for Alpha Teapots, which is my mother and me. My mother owns Alpha. I’m an employee. There are several other companies in the same line of business, (Bravo Teapots, Charlie Teapots, etc.) that involve the aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. My last name is not Smith, but when I tell people that I’m part of the Smith family, they know that those are the people who make teapots.

    I applied for a similar job with a large company in the teapot business. I won’t be in direct competition with my family, so that aspect isn’t an issue.

    My question is do I need to disclose that Alpha Teapots is a family business and that my direct boss is my mother. (My mother’s last name is different). If I were asked directly, I would absolutely tell the truth. But is it information that I should volunteer? If we get to the point where they ask for references, my only reference in the teapot business is my mother, who is my supervisor. I have several references from the coffeepot business, which is my other part-time job. Of course, none of the coffeepot people are related to me. They are typical reference folks: former supervisors, colleagues, clients, etc.

    Any thoughts or suggestions would be great? Thanks.

    1. Graciosa*

      I would err on the side of mentioning it, probably tying it into why you are interested in leaving your current job or what’s so fascinating about a new one.

      “When I saw the job at Supreme Teapots, I was really interested in the opportunity to work for an industry leader in cocoa coating. The family firm I’ve been working at, Alpha Teapots, doesn’t really deal with cocoa coating, but I took several classes in cocoa coating at Teapot Tech and think your position would be a much better fit for me.”

      There’s nothing unusual about this (assuming everyone in the Smith family is still speaking to each other and hasn’t hit the news for the Great Smith Family Rift Taking the Teapot Industry by Storm). Leaving a family business to work in other settings is a normal reason for moving on.

      1. No Name For This One*

        Thanks. My originally thought was to definitely mention it because they will probably find out at some point and I don’t want them to think I’m trying to hide something. Also, there is something about growing up in a business. When I was a kid, we sat around the dinner table and talked about teapots. I knew more about teapots by the time I finished middle than most people know in their whole lives.

        Then I talked to a friend who swore up and down I should not say anything because it would seem like it’s not a real job, or that I am utterly unemployable, but my family felt sorry for me.

        I like your idea of saying I would get more exposure to other parts of the business. That really is why I would like this job, I just hadn’t articulated it quite like that. Thanks.

        1. Artemesia*

          I’d say it was a family business but not say specifically you work for your mother. Somehow that seems less like a real job than the idea that you work in a family business.

          And of course growing up in the teapot business should be a good thing and wanting to move out from under the family umbrella is an understandable thing.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Your friend gives bad advice. What you do is talk about what you learned, what projects you did, etc. You can’t fake experience. They will know by what you think of to say that you were not just sitting around collecting a paycheck.

  87. nicolefromqueens*

    I am in quite the fury right now. I work as a permatemp, through a “good” agency which shall go unnamed. Every week I have to submit my paper time sheet to my supervisor, who sends it to the client’s timekeeping, who submits the hours to the agency, and the agency is responsible for paying me. Well this week, the phantom timekeeper didn’t submit my hours to the agency so the agency didn’t pay me. After 20 minutes on hold with the agency’s payroll, they’re not claiming responsibility and they said there’s nothing they can do to pay me until next Friday. I cannot go another week without this check.

    I had a lot of extra expenses this past month (expenses I wouldn’t have if I didn’t have to be here five days a week) and my rent (which is more than 40% of my take home) is due Sunday to my roommate, who will undoubtedly be pissed. Borrowing money is out of the question, everyone else is rent burdened too, this is NYC.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      What state are you in? If you’re an employee and not a 1099 contractor, there will be laws about how quickly they need to pay you.

    2. Natalie*

      Do you have a regular rep at the agency you work with? It might be worth calling them (like, now) to see if they can advocate for you. The payroll person probably isn’t super motivated to help you.

  88. Bereaved Interviewee*

    Would like to get some feedback on this one… I’ve got an hour long, 2nd round, phone interview with a VP later today. However, at 2 AM I found out that I lost a very close friend to a heart attack, completely unexpectedly. I’m having a tough time today and am wondering how to handle this. A) Suck it up and do the best I can, B) Postpone the interview (which isnt ideal due to a possible pending offer from a different company.) or C) notify the interviewer and explain that if I seem less than enthusiastic thats why (seems the most honest, and the worst idea in terms of getting the job.)

    1. LMW*

      I’m so sorry for your loss.

      If I were in your shoes, I would try and reschedule, because I know that I wouldn’t be able to give a good interview and there’s no benefit to being the candidate who made things awkward by telling them about a personal loss (people have trouble figuring out how to respond to loss and grief even with people they know). It sounds like your other offer is “possible pending” — so you don’t actually have one yet, right?

      Even if you just give yourself the weekend, that could make a big difference in terms of how you deal with the interview. Not to mention it offers you a break when you probably need one.

      1. Bereaved Interviewee*

        Yes the other offer is “possible” pending. Im at the point where todays interview is with company B, Im trying to speed up B because Im done interviewing at A and waiting on an offer. Basically I want to drag feet at A, try to speed up B so that I have an opportunity to choose between the two. People at work keep asking me if Im ok though, because its pretty visible that Ive been crying. If it were an in person interview I think I would be more inclined to delay. I feel like if its only my voice and not my overall demeanor, that I may be able to hide it. I agree though, that saying something to them puts them in an uncomfortable position.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep and when the other company calls with the offer ask them for a couple extra days as you just lost a loved one.

  89. Kethryvis*

    i don’t post here often but i’ve been living with this in my own head for long enough, i feel like i need to get it out.

    Background: i’m pretty miserable in my job. What i was sold and what i have are pretty different, and it is in a field that i don’t really enjoy at all (marketing/advertising). Not to mention our CEO is super demanding and freaks out at the drop of a hat, i’m being asked to compromise my beliefs and principles (which are things i was told i was hired for), and i feel completely ineffectual. But, i’ve been there two years trying to build my resume since everything else on it is pretty short term (contract positions for the most part)

    About six months ago, my old boss (at a place i loved, and a boss i respected) contact me saying he had a job opening and did i know anyone who would be interested. Well, it was my old job. Hands down, though with a few more responsibilities. When i’d left that position, he said that if he had a spot for me, he would always call, and i said that i would always take his call, no question. So i leapt at this, of course.

    The position opened about two months later, and i applied. i went through the phone screen, task, interview with the old boss, a 3-hour on-site with three different people (two of whom i knew and am friendly with, one i didn’t know). i was scheduled for a final interview with my former boss’s boss, but that was rescheduled to his Deputy; i think it was due to conflict of interest, since said boss’s boss was on an academic committee for my last degree. So i did that interview and i felt like all went well.

    Then i got the email this week, generic from the recruiters, saying they weren’t moving forward with my candidacy. i was pretty crushed; i felt like i did really well in all the interviews, i was confident in the handling of the operations of the job since i’d done it before, my salary requirements were in the realm of what they were looking to pay, and this boss and boss’s boss have always been incredibly praising of my work and always talk up my accomplishments and work to everyone they meet. So, of course, they’re two of my recommenders when interviewers ask me. And now.. they wouldn’t hire me.

    I don’t really know what makes me more upset: the fact that i didn’t get the job, or that my former boss/friend/mentor didn’t bother to tell me himself. I haven’t asked for feedback, i’m a little scared. And i really don’t know if i should use these recommenders anymore… tho without them i’m pretty stuck since it’s my most recent job in my field, plus it’s a really big name place.

    So i don’t really know what to do. Ask for feedback? Keep using these recommenders? The other thing is that this field has changed a lot in the last 10 years, it’s morphed from people management to social media management. The former i love, the latter i hate. It’s hard to find jobs that focus on the former, and i’m starting to wonder if i should leave my field entirely… except that then i feel like i’d be even MORE stuck, what with how crap the job market is (if you don’t fit the cookie cutter, you don’t even get a call). i really feel lost and stuck.

    Thanks for letting me vent!

    1. Colette*

      It sounds like they were seriously considering you – no one does that many interviews with someone who isn’t a serious contender for the job – but that you ultimately weren’t the best fit. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be your references (as long as they are able to accurately speak to your strengths).

      I’d reach out to your former boss and say something like “I’m sorry this position didn’t work out, I would have liked to work with you again. Would you be comfortable letting me know how I can become a stronger candidate? I really value your opinion and would appreciate any feedback you can share with me.”

      1. Sadsack*

        I agree with Colette on the wording for requesting feedback. It may be that as much as they liked you, someone else came out of the woodwork who just had a little more experience than you in something they feel is important. I don’t think that you didn’t get the job because they didn’t think you would do well, but because they found someone they think may do it better. I understand how crushed you must be though. It stinks that the person who reached out to you in the first place didn’t call himself to give you the news, but who knows what led to that.

  90. Job-Hunt Newbie*

    Question about negotiations after a job offer:

    Some of the start dates of the positions I am applying for are around a month and a half to a few weeks before a wedding I am in. I committed to this wedding last summer, and I am hoping to negotiate “vacation days” (unpaid if necessary) so that I can go home to be in the wedding. I would need at least two work days off (a Thursday and a Friday), but three would be more ideal, so I’m not a zombie at the bridal shower and the 24hours before the wedding scrambling to help finalize everything.

    Given that for some positions, this may be just weeks into the position, how do I approach this conversation before accepting an offer? I know weddings aren’t on the same level as funerals or medical emergencies…but you only see your friend get married and be a part of their wedding once (hopefully), and after being committed to this for nearly nine months now, I would hate to have to back out.

    1. Florida*

      People negotiate stuff like this even if it’s not a wedding or funeral, but just a planned vacation. Just say something like, “I have an out-of-town wedding, so I will need April 1-3 off. I’m happy to take those days without pay. Will that be a problem?”

      If you want, you can avoid the part about no pay, see how they react, then add it if you need to.

      The other thing you can say depending on your personal situation is, “I’m going to need April 1-3 off for an out-of-town wedding. I can either go ahead and start on March 15, then take those days off. Or I can wait to start until April 4. Which one works better for you?” People always want you to start as soon as possible, so they will almost definitely say to start and take the days off.

      This happens all the time, so I would be very surprised if it was an issue. And ask for the time you need. If you need three days, tell them you need three days.

    2. Graciosa*

      This stuff is normal to bring up. A wedding is a big deal, and two days is not unreasonable.

      Do bring it up before hand, and get it documented in the offer letter. You may need to take it unpaid.

      The reason for this is to make sure it’s memorialized as some companies don’t allow vacation for the first X days of employment. Employer’s who are happy to give you the time may run into systems problems if they try to treat it as paid time off rather than unpaid (not universal, but it’s good to consider).

      If it helps, I have had this come up as a hiring manager and it’s not a problem for me.

    3. Elizabeth*

      This happened to me. Well, I was hired in early August and was a bridesmaid halfway across the country in late October (unbeknownst to me, a weekend between two major events). I brought it up with my now-boss at the offer stage. The two and a half days I took off were unpaid, but it worked out fine.

  91. Kate*

    How much does it matter what country you do an MBA degree in? I’ve had my mind more or less made up to go back to school for that within the next few years. Now it looks like my husband-elect will have the chance to work in Germany for a few years, and I would love for us to do that. And I know there are MBA degrees there, and they’re often less expensive than ones here in the US – but we do plan to settle in the US eventually. So, if I get an MBA in Leipzig, but then I want to work in Denver (or wherever, but probably not a major international city like New York), is that going to be a serious hindrance? I’m most interested in accounting and consulting.

    Thanks in advance for any input!!

    1. Mockingjay*

      If your husband-elect’s new job will be affiliated with an overseas military base, several US universities offer accredited undergrad and grad courses onsite (some classes are distance learning).

      You can also inquire whether the local German university has an affiliation with a US university (due to student exchanges, coop programs, etc.). Check on the language requirement; for classes conducted in German, you will have to demonstrate language mastery before being allowed to attend.

      German universities have an excellent reputation, as does the school system in general. We lived there for 9 years, and we sent our children to the local schools. Best decision we ever made.

      1. Kate*

        He’s finishing a PhD in chemistry right now so the job (such as it is) would be doing a postdoc with a Germany-based researcher. At this point I know zero German and while I’d make a wholehearted effort to learn, I’d only be looking at programs conducted in English. Thanks for your thoughts!

        1. LisaS*

          A lot if international MBA programs are taught in English – whichever university you decide to attend in Germany may offer English-language coursework. My housemate is interning here in the States from her MBA at Bocconi in Milan and she’ll write her thesis in English…

    2. TNTT*

      Unfortunately I don’t have any relevant experience so I don’t know the answer to your MBA questions, but I wanted to express my approval of the phrase “husband-elect” and also tell you to GO TO GERMANY! It’s the best.

        1. Artemesia*

          I’d be inclined to take a break and immerse myself in the local culture, travel, learn German — and then jump into an MBA program back in the states to reset the work clock. These opportunities don’t come often. Carpe diem.

          1. Kate*

            This does sound like a great idea, but frankly I kind of don’t know what I’d do with myself otherwise. Part (certainly not all) of the reason going to school is appealing is because it would give me something to do and a way to make friends. My partner will be busy with essentially a full-time job and I don’t really care for traveling alone; I’m also not very outgoing and not good at striking up friendships with people I have no other relationship to (e.g., classmates). I’ve spent a couple years in the past traveling (alone, which is how I know I’m tired of it) via various gap years and exchanges, so I’ve already had the whole self-discovery benefit. I’m certainly open to ideas, though, about ways to spend my time that would either be low-cost or worth the investment (like education would theoretically be). (This post has been riddled with parentheses.)

          2. Kate*

            Not to pooh-pooh this, though – it sounds like a great scenario. Not sure how I’d spend those two years, but very open to non-school ideas.

  92. Not into FB or Twitter*

    I’m a millennial and really not into social media. I don’t use Facebook or Twitter or Instagram because I don’t like sharing what I’m doing all the time with so many people. But it’s been touted again and again that one of the strengths of millennials is their natural grasp of social media. I have a BA and good writing skills, and I can go into the fields of communication or marketing with my degree, but most jobs in those fields are manning social media. While I don’t mind occasionally tweeting or updating Facebook pages for my company, I don’t use those platforms 24/7 in my own time and I’m afraid companies will pass me over for someone who is a social media wiz with a personal blog and tweets everyday. How much do you expect millennials to be social media wizzes? Even if the job doesn’t directly involve working with social media, would you think a young person who isn’t active online would not be as strong in their communication or writing/journalism skills as someone who can flick off witty 140 character tweets at every turn?

    1. AVP*

      I think it would b hard to go into marketing without a good grasp of those skills- not because you’re young and people expect that, but I think it’s a little expected of anyone going into marketing these days. However, some of the professional “social media marketing” people I know virtually never use it for their own stuff and don’t have their own accounts. They’re just good at it when it comes to other people’s content.

      So I would consider….would you want a job where you had to use it all day, if it wasn’t your name or content? Can you make some prototype accounts and get really familiar with it that way? If not, you should probably take that into account when job hunting. There are jobs out there that don’t require you to use them, but you might have to seek them out.

      1. nof*

        Yep, you don’t have to have personal social media to be great at organizational social media. I have little personal online presence but it’s a major part of my job and I love it!

        On the other hand, when you’re just getting started, having personal (appropriate) online profiles to point to may be helpful. I didn’t want to go that route so I used my internships to get my foot in the door and then started building up my professional portfolio as quickly as possible.

    2. anonima in tejas*

      I think that you need to have some good responses as to why you are not on social media, and you have to have some good idea of what skills make someone successful at social media (and how you have similar experience). If you are completely opposed to doing that as part of a communications position– you really are going to have a very difficult time breaking into communications. Maybe it’d be helpful to think of it this way, if I didn’t want to deal with rude people, why would I go into a service related field?

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Well, even if you did have a sweet Instagram account, you probably wouldn’t share that with the company anyway. I think as long as you can talk about the basics of how to apply marketing and analytics to social media, you should be fine!

    4. jamlady*

      My brother-in-law is the marketing manager for a HUGE international company having worked his way up from a small hotel in the US. He would tell you flat-out that you can’t get a job in marketing or communication without the regular use of social media. Even my sister, who is in a total different field, wouldn’t be able to get a job without those skills because she deals with the public so much. I personally have a Facebook for articles and a LinkedIn for networking. And that’s it. But my field could not care less about social media. But you can’t go into marketing and communication without the skills to use their main methods of marketing and communication.

    5. Felicia*

      I am one of those professional marketing people who does social media as a big part of my job. And i am barely on social media at all for my personal life. But i’m pretty good at what I do (social media is only 20% of my job). The skills you need to manage social media successfully for an organization are not the same you’d use when on social media personally. A lot of people who are on social media constantly in their personal life would not be able to do it professionally. I learned mostly by reading a lot about it, and constantly measuring metrics and adjusting my strategies.

      1. Lightly Salted*

        I’m not a big social media person in my own life, but had the chance to do a little at a previous job and really enjoyed it. What books were helpful to you in learning more about it on your own? P.S. I’m new to the Open Threads and was perusing the archives and found this. Not sure if you will see my question here but thought I’d try just in case you have comment notifications set-up.

  93. Anonsie*

    How do you keep a wool crepe-type fabric suit jacket or pants from getting winkled up on a flight? I am exactly the wrong height and a folding garment bag just puts a crinkle along the bottom and cuffs of the jacket and the ends of the pants just bunch up. Have I only tried crummy garment bags or is there some magical secret?

    Aside from the magical secret of steaming or ironing when you get there. Some of my stuff is admittedly kind of cheap and I don’t want to find out the hard way how far “cool iron only” can be pushed.

    1. Kara Ayako*

      I use Downy wrinkle releaser when I travel. I swear: it’s basically magic. You spray it on then pull on the fabric a bit, and the wrinkles just disappear.

      1. Celeste*

        I like it too. I had a lot of little tricks before it came out, but it really is good stuff. It saves having to carry a little travel steamer with you!

        1. Anonsie*

          Heeeey I’ve never tried it! I’ll have to check it out before I go, thanks.

          What were your other tricks though, just out of curiosity? The hanging-in-the-bathroom-during-showering thing is the only one I’ve heard and I’ve never ever ever seen an improvement in a single wrinkle from that junk.

          1. Kara Ayako*

            I havne’t found that to be effective either. Honestly, my only other solution has been to find clothes that don’t wrinkle easily. I have about five outfits that fit this criteria, so I wear basically the same thing every time I travel. :)

          2. Celeste*

            I would lightly stuff clothes with tissue paper and put more in as I folded. It would help keep from getting sharp wrinkles. I would unpack promptly, shake and hang the clothes. For pants I would use a clip hanger to hang them upside down and let gravity work a little better. I only used a travel steamer once because it took a long time to see a difference. I’ve tried the steamy bathroom with mixed results; all that it reliably does is melt my makeup and hair spray! Ah, the bad old days!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It may not work for the jacket, but i have had awesome luck rolling my clothes as opposed to folding them.

  94. Anonymous Problem Child*

    I have certain difficulties with doing customer service at my job, which mostly seem to boil down to “they just find me off-putting when I speak to clients no matter what I do.” I get a lot of talkings to about how I am good at everything else at my job *but* that. I go to therapy weekly, which my supervisor is aware of. My supervisor seems to be politely hinting to me lately that s/he would be receptive if I disclosed that I had been diagnosed with something. I have not officially been diagnosed with anything and I don’t want to be and I don’t want that “black mark” on my employment record or my medical record. Nor do I want to go on medication for anything, I have issues with taking pills. My therapist is not able to prescribe drugs anyway.

    Both my therapist and supervisor have brought up the possibility of my getting FMLA leave to go to therapy appointments–I currently do them on the phone during my lunch hour so as to not burn through sick/vacation. I don’t know if I am down with this idea or not because it sounds like I’d have to be diagnosed with something & go on medication once I am. Plus again, black marks. I think I am on thin ice already without having A Diagnosis in my records and I don’t want to make that worse. My therapist has also brought up the idea of trying to get it made official that I do less customer service time, but I think that would cause major problems in my job if I wasn’t “able” to do it on a moment’s notice. They are short staffed already, I really don’t want to piss off my coworkers, and one of them will be going out on medical leave soon so we will be even more short staffed if I can’t “pitch in.” It would mean that I am unable to do my job and I think that could cause me to get the boot if I suddenly “can’t” because of “anxiety.”

    It worries me that the supervisor wants to know if I have some clinical problem. I can’t figure out if that’s a plus (maybe we can’t fire you if you’re clinical) or a minus (anything can and will be used against you). My therapist, of course, is all “Oh, you could get diagnosed INSTANTLY, how’s about generalized anxiety disorder?” My words, not hers, but that’s the general drift.

    For the record: I trust my supervisor but maybe not so much those above the supervisor’s level. I am technically a union member but can’t stand our union people here and would actively decline their so-called “help.”

    1. Celeste*

      People are trying to help you stay employed. I think you should let them.

      I see that you are afraid of a diagnosis giving you a black mark–but I really think you should be more afraid of what an untreated issue is doing to your life. There really is help for anxiety, but you have to accept it. Right now you seem to have people on your side. I think you should take advantage of that. If you have a diagnosis, it might help you get an accommodation to not have to do customer service. It’s your manager’s problem about how to handle work flow, and a solution might be to shift customer service from you onto someone else, while you take up more of what else they were doing.

      I realize you have a lot of worries about a lot of aspects, but consider that your anxiety may not be telling you the absolute truth about it all.

      I’m sorry for what you’re going through; I’m certain you are upset about it all.

      1. L McD*

        “I see that you are afraid of a diagnosis giving you a black mark–but I really think you should be more afraid of what an untreated issue is doing to your life.”

        This, x1000. I spent many years afraid of diagnosis and treatment. Things have gotten immeasurably better since I relented. A big part of getting better is being one hundred percent open to the process. Even if you are someone who will never, ever need an official “diagnosis” or medication, the fact that you are closed-off to the idea is likely to be a huge roadblock for you.

        No workplace, no therapist, no psychiatrist, for that matter, can force you to take medication against your will. Most are not eager to prescribe it, not even close. This is about so much more than your workplace performance – this is your LIFE. You deserve to be happy and to feel better, whatever it take. Trust the process.

      2. Anonymous Problem Child*

        I think it’ll actually make the problem worse if I make the customer service team even smaller because I “can’t” do the job, because there isn’t someone else to push it off to and they won’t hire anyone new under any circumstances even though they lost four people within the last 12 months. I’d love to get out of doing it, but I fear it’ll do me out of a paycheck if the thing they need me for most isn’t something I can “do.” Technically I *can* do it and I’m not *un*able to, it just makes me unhappy. Plus everyone will resent me and that’s not a good atmosphere either.

        I already do meditation and therapy and other hippie things for my “anxiety.” I’m just much more concerned with trying to figure out AHEAD OF TIME (because I can’t ask directly without getting myself into deeper waters I’m not ready to negotiate) if becoming officially clinical is more or less likely to do me out of a job or save my job.

    2. some1*

      “I am technically a union member but can’t stand our union people here and would actively decline their so-called “help.””

      I started in a Union job for my professional career. It might be worth noting that your Union steward is kind of like a public defender — it’s their job to advocate for anyone who needs their help regardless of what you have done or how you feel about them as people. I would not dismiss the possibility of them without at least discussing your options with them.

      1. L McD*

        Yep. Another thing I noted – there’s a very strong undertone of anger and suspicion in the whole post. Be aware this might be a symptom of an anxiety disorder, rather than a reflection of reality.

      2. Anonymous Problem Child*

        They are incredibly pushy, rude, and mean to their own members. Even the most pro-union folks I know have actually quit working with them, and I know for a fact that one of them involving the union in a dispute escalated a really bad situation into a lot worse.

        I’m not anti-union in general, but I really dislike those people in particular. I do not trust them to help me or be on my side about anything and would turn them down forcibly if they offered help. I’m not sure whose side they are on besides their own, but I don’t trust people who treat folks “on their side” in the same way that they do “the enemy.”

        1. Anonymous Problem Child*

          And now I sound even more angry and suspicious. But uh…my relations with them have been really unpleasant. One should not attack a potential member for not having already joined up within 30 seconds of them sitting down at the table, I’ll put it that way.

          1. Celeste*

            So to you, the whole problem is wondering if your job is on the line and what can be done. It doesn’t sound like you want to try to change yourself in any way to fit this job better. I guess you could look for a different job which isn’t going to require customer service.

            I’ve worked with people who have anxiety disorders that really are intractable. I think in their cases it’s intractable because they see it as a character virtue, to care so hard and deeply about doing things exactly according to their own ideas about what is the best, right way. I’ve known worriers who think that it is the strength of their fretting about a plane crash that keeps their plane on course. They like themselves exactly the way they are, and it’s up to everyone around them to deal with it. May the odds be ever in their favor!

    3. Anonsie*

      You should ask your therapist directly if she already has any diagnoses mentioned in your records. It may or may not help nudge you to know that a suspected DSM diagnosis is often required for insurance purposes, so it may be on paper somewhere already. This is true for psychiatrists at least, I’m unsure if it’s also true for therapists who are not MDs. That may also be why she said what she did; she already had that as a “suspected” or “probable” somewhere, though it may not be documented anywhere yet.

      1. Anonymous Problem Child*

        Officially no, but she’ll put one down in a heartbeat apparently :P

        I see her privately so as to keep this off the books of insurance. Again, trying to not have a “black mark” on that (plus my HMO isn’t great on mental issues).

        1. Anonsie*

          I get that. But like Celeste says above, you need to consider what inaction will cost you versus having it in your records. For you, this is impacting your career. Unless there is a specific thing you hope to pursue in the future for which a controlled mental illness would be a barrier, this is not a “black mark” that’s going to come back to cause you grief in the future. Not dealing with it, however, is already causing you even more grief already… And with all appearances of even more grief to come.

      2. Natalie*

        As far as I know, it’s true for insurance no matter what specific license your therapist carries.

        1. Anonsie*

          Good to know! I’ve wondered that before whenever the therapist/psychiatrist difference comes up.

    4. little Cindy Lou who*

      A diagnosis isn’t a black mark and you need to shake yourself of that assumption/mode of thinking. It’s no different than being bald or having one hand or being terribly afraid of heights: it’s something that exists, has a name and sometimes needs to be worked around but isn’t a thing of shame or weakness if you set the tone that it’s not and that it won’t stop you in the long run.

      I’m OCD and I used to struggle mightily with Needing Everything In My Control Perfect (but not recognizing that was the/an issue until I sought therapy to learn strategies for dealing with stress at work). I’ve learned a good deal to help tame the disabling perfectionism beast and especially manage the anxiety it would cause me, and my career and life have been better for accepting that I need to acknowledge and work through that regularly (and now I’m perceived as warm and down to earth vs weird and condescending! All because I interact more mindfully/conciously with the world outside my head).

      It sounds like your manager and therapist are trying to work with you through understanding why you may have trouble connecting/communicating with people in certain situations. Even if there’s no diagnosis here –and btw my therapy was totally in lieu of presribed “happy pills”, because I didn’t and still don’t want those either — thank them for the opportunity and agree to go fully into exploring “the why and what can you do” with them (including the advantage of leave time) because it can really go a long way to help you, not just at work but in general.

      Tl; dr: Cognitive behavioral therapy is helpful for understanding why you do something and how to redirect.

  95. kas*

    I have an informational interview coming up and I’m super nervous. I’m having a hard time coming up with questions to ask since the interview is with someone within the company I work for. She’s at a different location but in the department I’d like to get into. I have a few department related questions but is there anything I could/should ask? It’s an in-person interview and I’ve never met her or anyone else at that location. Anyone have any tips?

    1. Colette*

      What does she like about the company? What does she wish the company did differently? What does she like about the job? What do people find difficult about joining the company/learning the job? Why do people typically leave? If people move internally, what kinds of jobs do they move into? What kind of experience is really helpful to someone in that role?

    2. Sadsack*

      I have had many internal info interviews and usually ask the same questions as I do at outside interviews. I don’t need to ask questions about the larger organization, but would ask how the group fits into it. What is the work flow? How is the workload managed? Is their upward mobility within that group, or where do people go from there? What is the work like on a daily basis? How are daily tasks determined and what is the expected timeline for completing them? What are typical annual goals for the group/individuals? Who are the clients, if it isn’t obvious. What are the greatest challenges for someone in this position? What type of person/worker is usually successful in this role?

      The phrasing of all these questions probably depends on the field you are in.

      1. kas*

        The phrasing pretty much works for my field, thank you so much. Feeling more confident now that I have a starting point/direction.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think if you search here you will find more questions on this site. I believe Alison did a post on this.

  96. ThursdaysGeek*

    This is work related, because it’s for a safety presentation that I’m going to make at work in a bit over a week. I was asked to talk about hantavirus for our next safety meeting. As part of the presentation, I have some mouse poop to pass around, in a zip lock and then covered in plastic too. Except that I carefully made it out of dark chocolate with hazelnut! :) It looks very authentic.

    1. Mander*

      This would make me very suspicious of any cake you made featuring dark chocolate and/or hazelnuts.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Nope, I only go one way with these things! I would never ruin a good chocolate cake with anything inedible.

    3. Jennifer*

      I hope you bring a camera to take pictures of people’s faces when you do that.

      Are you going to eat your prop after it’s been passed around the table? :)

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        If they don’t believe me, I’ll be willing to prove it. I expect they won’t believe me.

  97. Not So NewReader*

    Two library questions. I know I am asking in the right place.
    Recently, I found myself installed on a library board. (Yes, these things just happen here.) We are a small town with a tiny library- two employees, boss and subordinate.

    What do you think helps to increase foot traffic? Someone had mentioned getting a subscription to Lydia. com (?, I wrote it down and the notes are not handy right now). I thought that might be a great idea for our little library.

    Goal setting. This probably requires a link and is not something you can type out here. But the question was raised how do we chose goals that where we actually show improvement over the year. For example, we talked about foot traffic, but we don’t want to spend money on a counter to prove it. Right, there is not a lot of money to spend.
    The library patrons are a mix- we are a rural area with lots of farming. And people fill their spare time with a huge variety of hobbies/interests. We have computers, of course, and I think there is a plan to get more. We have wireless internet. The library is linked to a regional system and the patrons can acccess books online, also.
    (I hope this is a helpful description…)

    Thoughts?

    1. Florida*

      My library (large urban area) always has classes and presentations and other interesting events. For example, they might have a magic show for children. Or someone give a lecture about feng shui. I think they pay some of the people, but most of them they don’t. They get professors from the college to come and give talks for free. Also, people will talk if it will promote their business. For example, we have a financial planner who is always giving talks about how to invest, the economy, or anything similar. It’s not a sales pitch, but at the end, he mentions that you can take his card and contact him about your specific situation.

      Lots of clubs would be willing to give a lecture. For example, the local gardening club might send someone out to talk about how to start a vegetable garden. The League of Women Voters or similar group might send someone to talk about government. An immigration attorney might talk about how to become a citizen.

      As far as how you prove its effectiveness. You just need someone with a clicker to count the number of people who attend the events. And keep track of whether more books are checked out around the time of the events compared to days there are not events.

    2. cuppa*

      The thing that gets people into the library is providing services that patrons need or want. This varies according to your community. Some communities have a lot of people that don’t have Internet access at home, have low technology skills, or both. Those communities need computers/Internet access/people to assist patrons with technology. Some have a lot of job seekers. Those need a lot of resume assistance/software/job programs. Some places have a lot of young families and need to focus on early literacy. Some have lots of immigrants and need ESL/materials in home languages, etc. Most have a mix of a lot of things. Do your rural patrons want a seed library? A discussion group? Guest speakers? 100 Farmers’ Almanacs? Determine what the needs of your library patrons are and work to meet them. No matter how trendy, don’t buy a 3D printer for your library if no one is going to use it.
      Statistics are probably the biggest indicator of success, but if they don’t want to spend the money on getting a counter, then you will have to get creative. You should be able to get circulation stats no matter how you circ materials (even if it’s just signing a name on a sheet of paper, you can count it). Can you get one of those thumb counters and use that for foot traffic? Even if you count foot traffic for a few random hours in a day, that will give you a place to start (compare traffic from 11a-12p daily, weekly, etc.). Can a volunteer help with that if you are short staffed? Are you counting attendance at programs? Also, you can do patron satisfaction surveys, or if you have a circ system you should be able to pull active card holders and compare it to your population.
      Good luck!

    3. Liz in a Library*

      On tracking traffic: When I worked for a small library, before we had counters, we would regularly do hand counts every few months just to get an idea of ebb and flow of traffic. The way we’d do it is pick the same day of the week (or the same full week of the month, depending on how long you want to track) every time, and then do manual counts of how many patrons are on the computers each hour on the hour, how many are in the stacks, how many at the tables. We’d also track the number of questions the staff got during that time and sort them into broad categories (resource requests – do you have season 1 of the Simpsons?, informational – where’s the bathroom?, reference – can you help me find information on gluten intolerance?).

      Would something like this be feasible, or is your staff run too ragged already? Could you pull in a volunteer to do this every now and then?

    4. Snork Maiden*

      If you are in a rural area, people love excuses to get together for things as you can become isolated quickly. (I grew up in a rural area). Especially if you have a lot of young families, who are always looking for new playgroup options. The library where I grew up has a small art gallery attached and holds free shows by local people, with artist talks and (modest) receptions.

    5. fposte*

      This is like a whole library degree of a subject. Are either of the staff librarians? I’m surprised they’re not familiar with output and outcome measurements, if so. There’s also a whole Association for Small and Rural Libraries, which has a website with a blog, resource lists, etc.

      Basically, there’s a lot of established practice in this area, and it sounds like you guys might be doing a little bit of wheel-reinvention. Other people have some good specific suggestions, but overall I’d start with surveying the resources that are already out there and then seeing what models might be useful.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Thank you all so much. This is very interesting.
      Is it events that draw people?
      I think we can get volunteers to cover things, if need be. The real problem would be getting event planners and getting people to attend.(… rural area….)

      I am wondering about things that can be on-going and individuals can come on a random basis. Something like an art show (a great idea)- there is no real place to put it. I started thinking about small collections of items but I bumped into the worries about building security and insurance. Is there anything we could do that would draw people in but they come when they can? We are thinking of doing a book swap type of thing to move some books. (We “sell” them now, but apparently we have to collect sales tax. So we are considering giving them away. We can’t suggest donations in exchange for the books, either.)

      We could do a survey, that wouldn’t be hard. I think we should do that.

      Do you guys have an email list, where you sometimes email patrons about things of general interest? If yes, does that seem helpful?

    7. AcademicAnon*

      Yes try to get some groups going and some volunteers to run them. Ask around to see what people need. They might not have internet at home, but a lot of small business even farms still run their business on their home computer. See if people are interested in a class/workshop that teaches more advanced uses of excel. Start kids groups, like having a group that reads or acts out books to younger kids while having a group that shows movies for the older kids. Start a seniors group, just having a time for them to come in and talk. Keep in mind too the farmers schedule, as you they will have no time to do anything in planting or harvest season, so don’t try to start up something new then.

    8. C Average*

      Are there any writers in the area who might be interested in doing readings in the evening, or any historians or subject-matter experts who could give interesting talks? The library in the little tiny town where I grew up does this on a regular basis and gets good attendance.

      They also periodically display historical photos from the area. People who have lived in the area for a long time like to come in and look at them, and then other people hear about it and want to contribute photos, and it’s become almost self-perpetuating.

      Also, in this era of bookstores/cafes, don’t underestimate the appeal of comfortable chairs and a not-too-strict drinks policy. I love that I can swing by my library’s local branch with a cup of coffee in hand, sit in a comfy chair in the sun, and browse a stack of books.

      Finally, does the library have a public bulletin board? If not, it should. That way, everyone from the local farmers’ market to the quilting club can tack up a notice.

    9. MJ*

      I would suggest reading David Lankes. He has a very short book called Expect More (written for library boards) that talks about partnering with and being a platform for your community. He has a number of online talks as well that are worth the watch. One idea he presented in a recent talk was to give a 1/4 sheet questionnaire to people who visit the library that asks (with spaces in between for answering):
      —What do you love to do?
      —What are you passionate about?
      —Would you be interested in sharing what you know/teaching it to your neighbors/ to the community?
      —Can I have your contact info? (Name, phone, email)
      Include your library’s info at the bottom.

      You have a library that can’t afford a door counter. You need free programming. Give your community the opportunity to collaborate. Create a space for people who are spread out to connect with one another. They need you, they just don’t know it yet.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Thank you! Thank you!

      I am sure one person is a librarian, I am not sure about the other person. They are both part time with little to no benefits. I have seen comments before about this- that it’s a huge problem for rural libraries. It’s hard to attract help for a part time job with little/no benefits. So I do understand that this is the nature of the situation. I am not sure how much of this stuff she knows- but I do know I have to get up to some speed myself.

      I think a writer’s group would be interesting. We do have published authors in our community. (There’s an interesting mix of people here- that is an opportunity, if we can tap it.)

      I love the idea about local photos/history. I also like the idea of a sunny area and coffee.

      Yes, we have two bulletin boards actually. One covers a door so it is very large= the other is about half that size and they are both covered with info all the time. There is also a table of leaflets/flyers in the adult section.

      Thank you, folks, for these inputs. I put them in a doc and I am going to make a list running off of what you guys have said here and go from there. I have started reading comments from the library people here more closely and I will continue to do this, too.

      I will check back so if anyone adds anything I will catch it for my file here. Thanks, muchly!

    11. library anon for this*

      Looks like you’ve already gotten some good suggestions! One thing to consider may be how much (0r how little) it’s appropriate for you, as a board member, to be involved in operational details. In my experience, boards should set high level strategic priorities and goals, but staff should figure out the operational stuff. I say this as someone who is a manager in a public library system and has also served on nonprofit boards. If you’re interested, there are good resources for nonprofit board members in general at boardsource.org (some are free, some are member only). The American Library Association also publishes some resources for library trustees/boards. I believe most of them are produced by United for Libraries, which is one of ALA’s divisions.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I get the distancing factor that you are talking about. For the most part, that is in place. There are only two part time employees, so people tend to pick up the slack, periodically. You almost have to, because somethings are just too much for the head librarian to take on*. I do see the board saying “we will leave x for her to decide” and similar type things. So I know there is a line in place. I am sure when I compile my list here, I will get told where that line is! ha! Not a biggie, because once I see where the line is I won’t push it.
        Thank you for your help here!

        [*Ex: There was a step to the attic that gave too much under my weight. It felt like I was going to go through the step. I reported it. Turned out the whole stair case needed to be replaced. I got told, “good call on that one.”]

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          You know, before you present suggestions, I might ask the board to talk to you a bit about the divide between what’s appropriate for the board and what’s appropriate for the staff, and explicitly say that you want to make sure that you’re don’t blur the lines. That’s because some people are bad at pushing back when board members overstep and the staff might have trouble saying to a board member, “no, this is not your realm.” I’d say to find out where the lines are first.

          (And definitely in most organizations, the staff is responsible for the day to day management and the board should only be setting big picture strategy and goals and exercising financial oversight and governance. In small orgs, that’s sometimes different because there just isn’t enough staff to do the staff stuff. But definitely ask first!)

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Thank you, Alison. Will do. A friend is on the board and I will talk to him first. He will tell me where it’s at. We’ve worked together before so he knows I can bounce over to another idea that is workable and drop the bad idea. We also do candid, cut-to-the chase conversations. We have worked together for a few years now and it’s a positive working relationship.
            And I also know from personal experience what you are saying about day-to-day operations. Sadly, with new state guidelines the board will be interfering with day-to-day operations more than any of us would like. I can’t say too much here, but I feel that the board is advocating for the employees. Personally, I am a big fan of letting the people doing the work decide the day-to-day flows and decide on the equipment, etc that is necessary to the job.

  98. dd*

    Just a vent.

    On job application forms it always asks for our signature to state that we are telling the truth, and that no information has been omitted, etc. On the other hand, we all know that employers and recruiters lie to us about the job we are applying to.

    Why do they expect applicants to tell the truth, when they don’t? There needs to be a better way to keep the system in check.

    1. Colette*

      Huh? If the employer lies to you about the job, you don’t have to take it. Look for an employer who is up front about what the job is.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      A question that has been asked for ages. All we can do is control what we are doing. If they lie, the shame is on them, not us.

  99. Nervous Accountant*

    Last week I was stressed out about so many issues with work. This week was better. The jerk client cancelled. (New) Payroll issues are driving me nuts. I’m still afraid and frustrated that I’ll be let go after the season despite getting good feedback and acknowledgment of my hard work handling 2 major messes these last few weeks. Nothing really new to report….

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I have worked for places that were falling apart. They considered stories like this normal. The scary part is not being fired. The scary part is that they keep you and you keep getting to put out fires, day after day, after day……..

      They feel you are doing some things right. And truly, it is not possible to do everything wrong. Hang tough.

  100. Lisa*

    Ok, new company does 360 reviews, which gives you a score. The score impacts your raises. Not sure how I should be prepping for these. Is constructive feedback a raise killer? Can 4 awesome reviews, but 1 bad one kill my chances to move up? I am thinking that these reviews from my peers and clients need to be near perfect / glowing to get anything.
    Really worried about it.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      If one bad review kills your raise, then their system sucks.
      Ask the boss how this works. I am willing to bet it is a sliding scale, as opposed to all or nothing. The reviews from clients and coworkers may only be a small portion of how they figure your raise.

  101. Is This Legal*

    I started a job same day as my senior. I know more than her but I try to hide it. She will make errors and she don’t know advanced excel like I do. I will gladly show her but she will run and tell our manager or director as if she came up with it. I get no credit whatsoever, have you dealt with something like this and how can I handle it?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. Sooner or later she will not be able to hide it any more. She will be sitting in a meeting unable to answer questions or you will have a sick day and not be able to bail her. Something like that will happen.

      If she wants to be Ms Microphone, then I would use it to my advantage. If I felt changes should be made, I would show her the changes and let her tell the bosses. Use it to get some good stuff in place for the both of you.

    2. Staffer from previous week*

      I posted last week or the week before about a similar issue. I don’t have any suggestions, unfortunately; I too have concerns about the work of my co-workers and I going unnoticed and/or unappreciated as a result of having a supervisor who doesn’t know what they purport to know. I can only empathize.

    3. little Cindy Lou who*

      I had a coworker try that once. I helped her work through a tricky system problem and she tried to take full credit with our manager. A coworker clued me in, knowing I did most of the real work and she was just the mouthpiece to her contacts. I confronted her directly and said in nicer but still no-nonse terms that I had a problem with how she was passing this on because we’re a team and acting like a team means giving due credit to all involved parties when we have a win and if she ever did this again I would cease helping her. She never did it again.

  102. FlufferNutter3000*

    Happy Friday! Hoping you brilliant people have some advice for me. I’ve been home with my kids since 2011 and I’m ready to go back to work. I am trying to set up my LinkedIn profile and I’m stumped. What am I supposed to put as my Current Title? How do you make it clear you’re unemployed by choice for 4 years, vs. just plain unemployed (without throwing out there that I have 2 little kids…or does that even matter here?) I have tried to update this page so many times and get discouraged from the get-go. Anybody have any good profile set-up advice for me?
    Thanks!!

    2. Karowen*

      A lot of people use phrasing like “Currently seeking opportunity in [industry/department]”

  103. I am now a llama*

    Thank your everyone for your tips about industries to transition to from 7 years of sales!

    I’m finding that when I look, I don’t quite know what to look for since I’m entering a position/field I don’t know much about so I don’t want to think I can do something when I’m way under qualified. Do I just search general keywords like “purchasing” and sift through for more entry level positions?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Barring other suggestions, that is what I would start with and see how that works out.

  104. AnonAcademic*

    I have a question about adjusting to the interpersonal style of a new manager/work environment.

    I’ve spent the last 8 years working in research labs, as a research assistant and then a graduate student. Both my supervisors during this time have been exceptionally hands off. As in they will go to Europe for 10 days and I won’t even know they were travelling until they get back. They are also not the most reliable with reading or replying to email so I’ve learned to write VERY short, to the point emails to ensure I keep their attention and get a useful response. Also, these have been small labs (less than 10 people).

    I got a job at Fancy University in a lab that has 30-40 people total, about 10 at my level (postdoctoral). The head of the lab is MUCH more hands on than my previous supervisors. We’ve already had conference calls to discuss my role in future projects, and I don’t even start there for another 5 months. He is also super responsive via email, and not only that, he writes long, thoughtful paragraphs in response to my questions. (Side note: I have NO IDEA where he finds the time/attention!)

    I am actually having trouble getting used to this more involved dialogue/dynamic. I mean, I am literally used to email responses from CurrentBoss that are a single word or phrase (“yes” “No” “maybe, discuss at next meeting”). Or only having 15 minutes a week to go over complex data, which requires getting RIGHT to the point – whereas on our calls NewBoss will literally spend 5 minutes on small talk type stuff. I know this is normal in a lot of places but I’m realizing my style has become maybe overly brusque and too the point (being in the NYC area doesn’t help), and I need to soften it more to fit into this new lab culture (which is in California).

    Any tips from anyone who’s gotten through a similar transition?

    1. AcademicAnon*

      Sorry I don’t have any help, but this kind of management style would just drive me insane too, and I’m normally a very direct and to the point person and an introvert on top of it so I don’t want to have to engage in the chit-chat. This is one reason I like the current place I work at, which is a smaller school. that there is just no physical room for someone to have this many people working for them.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Short, to the point communications will still probably be fine, but on emails, you may need to go back in and add the polite white noise statements just so you don’t come across as too brusque.

      The biggest thing is to not take it personally – don’t feel like the boss is asking questions or digging into your work because he doesn’t trust you to handle it on her own. He’s asking because he has the time and interest, so a defensive reaction is going to come across as really weird.

  105. a nonny miss*

    My department had a big meeting with HR this week where we were told we were being reclassified from salaried to hourly employees. We are account coordinators and it is not uncommon that we have to respond to urgent requests at odd hours, including weekends and holidays. Unfortunately, because this change was made after budgets had been set, there’s really no room for overtime (which now has to be approved) although we’ve been told that the service level to our Chocolate Teapot purchasing clients shouldn’t change. I never thought I’d struggle so much to leave once I’ve hit my hours for the day, not to mention having no idea what to do with a 30 minute lunch break.

    But the most frustrating thing is: at our company, hourly employees accrue PTO slower, and subsequently accrue less PTO, than salaried employees and they are not grandfathering us. We are all now losing, at minimum, a week of PTO. Am I crazy to be annoyed by this? Crazier to be considering shopping my resume around now?

    1. Andraste*

      You are not crazy to be annoyed! I think however this has less to do with your employer and more to do with changes in the law. US Dept of Labor is currently in the process of requiring that anyone making less than a certain salary threshhold (somewhere in the $50,000 range) be classified as hourly rather than salaried. This is happening to my job, too. It’s actually a benefit to you to classify you as hourly–previously, your employer was overworking you but not paying you very much. For me, I’m making nonprofit peanuts but required to work nights and weekends regularly. Switching you to hourly should make your employer make your schedule more reasonable to avoid paying you overtime.

      Here’s a link: http://kdvr.com/2015/02/15/white-house-pushes-to-get-overtime-pay-for-more-exempt-workers/

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      Doesn’t sound crazy to me. Losing a week of time off is essentially a pay cut, so I’d sure be looking. And, if your jobs didn’t change, does that mean you were misclassified before and are owed some overtime for the extra time you worked when you were salaried and should be? That may not be a fight worth taking on, but it’s just another reason to look to see what else is out there.

    4. BRR*

      I’d probably be shopping around due to PTO. If you can group with other people who were reclassified I would say “We each spend on average X number of hours a week helping client. Due to the restructuring how should be this since it has required in the past urgent requests at odd hours?” The other people part is important because you want to show that this is what is required of the job.

    5. Natalie*

      Nope, you’re not crazy. The reclassification is out of their control, but it doesn’t sound like they’re handling it well at all.

  106. Paperback Writer*

    Last week, I posted (very late!) for some advice in my search for a personal assistant. I wanted to thank Alison and the community for their help, and report that things are going very well! I ended up with fifteen very solid candidates after screening out those who were unprofessional or downright creepy (it’s amazing how many people apparently don’t know how to tone that down for a first impression, although I guess I should be grateful they make it obvious). In my followup email, I let them know that I was a romance novelist and what to expect from certain aspects of a job, as a result of that. So far, three replies from people who are still very excited about the position – yay!

    And from my WTF file, here’s some great ideas of what NOT to do when applying for a job:

    – Email your entire (disjointed) life story in lieu of a cover letter
    – Re-send your resume after getting an email acknowledging the receipt of your resume, except this time, attaching a family photo because “sometimes that’s a good way to get to know people” and noting that you hope the person “does not find it strange”
    – Send nothing but a blank email with your resume file attached
    – Send nothing but a blank email with your resume attached, PLUS the resume “objective” notes a specific, completely different job
    – Send a response to the “posting for a graphic designer” touting your graphic design skills, when graphic design was the one skill NEVER mentioned anywhere in the ad

    This has definitely been an adventure! I’m really hopeful that this will end up great – thanks again everybody, and I’m sure I’ll be back at some point puzzling over a new aspect of this strange new world.

    1. brownblack*

      I think sending a blank email with a resume/cover letter attached is very, very common. It shows a complete and total lack of common sense.

  107. Rye-Ann*

    So I’m going to be graduating in August (M.S.) but I decided to start applying already. So there’s one company I’d like to work for and they posted a position which seems to be a decent match for me except for the fact that they want 2+ years of experience with a Master’s and I’ve only got, like, 3 months. I applied, thinking that the worst that could happen was nothing.

    Then, I saw another position which seems to be lower in the hierarchy but there doesn’t seem to be as much emphasis on having experience. However, it would pay significantly less. I personally don’t care about this too much, especially since as a recent graduate I probably can’t be too picky. My boyfriend is afraid that if they see that I’ve applied for both jobs, and that I’m willing to work at the lower salary, they’ll hire me for the other one (which seems to be more responsibility) but pay me the lower salary which, from what I can tell, would be way below market value (for the higher-level position). What do I do? It doesn’t help that I’m having a hard time picking out what I’m “overqualified” for and a job which a Master’s applicant should expect to see in my field without experience. :\

    1. CollegeAdmin*

      I think your boyfriend is incorrect. Companies pay based on what the position requires you to to – presumably the first job (with higher pay) also has more or more difficult responsibilities that warrant that higher pay. The pay for the second job might be less, but it would be because its responsibilities are less.

      It’s not that you’re “willing to work at the lower salary” – you’re willing to do the work of the second job at the lower salary, not the first. Apply away!

    2. Karowen*

      I agree with CollegeAdmin, but I also wanted to note that you should address the applying-to-two-jobs-at-the-same-company thing in the cover letter for the second one. Alison’s talked about it a couple of times, so you should be able to find it in the archive.

      1. Rye-Ann*

        It’s good to have the confirmation! And yeah, I did plan on mentioning it in my cover letter. I should maybe check the archives out too though.

  108. Andraste*

    Hi all!

    Last summer I graduated law school and got a policy-related job at the local affiliate of a national nonprofit. I didn’t take the bar as it wasn’t required for this work. Our particular affiliate is pretty disorganized, has budget problems, turnover is high, bad management, etc. and it’s just not working out for me. I am quitting and taking the bar this summer.

    Because turnover is such a problem at this affiliate, they request a 4 week notice rather than a 2 week notice. Right now I am wondering if I should give the standard 2 weeks, or accommodate them with 4? Because budget problems are an issue I am afraid I will be cut loose immediately on putting in notice. I know it’s selfish of me, but since I’m going to be out of work for several months and the bar ain’t cheap, the extra $$ from two more weeks of paycheck would be a big help.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      How have they behaved towards others that have left, that will give you a big clue how they might treat you.

      If turn over has been high they might just be asking for advanced notice, to help with recruitment and in that case it’s no problem for you to tell them, but I’m so cynical and jaded that I’d say look after yourself and only give two weeks. Last time I left a job I got screwed out of my bonus for giving an extra two weeks notice (I’m in the UK so was contracted to give 4 weeks) and this was a boss I had good realtionship with and thought he’d be grateful for the heads up I was going. I had no reason to think it would bit me on the arse but it still did.

  109. Intrepid Intern*

    One of the people I report to is creeping me out. He tries to get me to touch him, asking me to feel his hands and grabbing at my necklace. He’s singled me out a few times (“oh, I’ll give this [one time perk] to Wakeen now, but Intrepid needs a special appointment later.”) He’s occasionally come to eat his lunch in the lobby while I’m on reception, which is usually empty. No one else eats lunch here. There’s the potential for cultural differences, but he’s lived in the US for at least 10 years.
    Right now I’m dealing with it by trying to limit my time alone with him, but I’m concerned that will affect how I’m seen as an intern: less helpful, or life I’m shirking my job… the work he gives me is disproportionately administrative, so I wonder if I’m coming off as “too good for it.”

    What can I do? I’m an intern, and I’m pursuing a job here (which wouldn’t report to him). If I don’t get it, I need a good reference from this office.

    1. Colette*

      The rest of it might be OK, but the touching is not (particularly the grabbing at your necklace0. I mean, I believe you that the rest of it is also off, but it’s hard to say “he eats in the lobby” and make it seem personal.

      Have you directly and clearly said “Don’t touch me” and “I’m not going to touch you” in a firm and direct tone? That’s probably the first step.

      How many other people do you report to? Can you talk to one of them?

      This isn’t your fault, and raising it should not affect your chances of landing a job, if the organization is reasonable. (If it’s not reasonable, it’s not a good place to work.)

      1. Artemesia*

        I would bring this up with your intern supervisor; this is inappropriate and nipping it early is a good idea. The touching thing should be the focus as part of a general inappropriate set of behaviors towards you. I would not bring up the lobby eating per se, but it is one in a list of attempts to engage you that is creepy, so it may have a place in a longer conversation.

        1. Intrepid Intern*

          To answer both of you: I report to five people, including Creepy and Wakeen. Since there are only 6 permanent staff, there isn’t an intern supervisor per se.

          I have a pretty good rapport with Wakeen, and I’d usually bring it up with him. But he was there for the “Wakeen now, special appointment with Intrepid later” incident, and for the “touch my hands, see how cold, touch me” incident. He looked pretty taken aback by the former, but other comments he’s made make me unsure how seriously he’d take this.

          Thank you both for your suggestions on what to mention. I might try bringing it up to Jane– I don’t have quite the rapport with her I do with Wakeen, but I do have some, and she’s very familiar with the culture he’s coming from.

          1. Artemesia*

            Oh the ‘different cultures’ argument. Really there is no culture in which it is acceptable to handle women in the workplace and stalk them at lunch; I’d be a bit more forceful with him on the touching and cultivate an ally in Jane or Wakeen. The longer it goes on the worse it gets. If he comes from a culture where women are chattel, well then he needs to get over it to work here, but I suspect it isn’t so much culture as creepy guy who will do what he can get away with.

    2. Graciosa*

      A couple things to consider.

      First, use your words.

      “Why would I do that? Feeling other people would be really weird in a professional environment.”
      “Don’t touch me.”
      “I need you to respect my personal space and not try to grab my necklace.”
      “You’re making me uncomfortable. Please stop doing that.”
      “That’s not appropriate in the work place. Don’t do it again.”

      You need to clearly separate in your mind two things that are going on. One is that you are doing your job – being helpful, supportive, eager to learn, etc. even when doing administrative tasks. The other is that someone in a position of authority over you at work is invading your personal space in a way that makes you uncomfortable. There is nothing about dealing with the latter that changes the former.

      I’m not actually ballistic over the examples you mentioned, as they could result from misunderstanding the proper parameters of behavior and/or your perspective. The easiest way to fix that is to say something. This is not because there are not other options or because you are responsible for stopping someone else’s bad behavior – there are and you are not.

      The reason I suggest you say something is because it is an important skill to learn, and will change how you feel about the situation. You need to feel that you are strong enough and confident enough to speak up directly. Practice your responses if you need to so that you’re comfortable saying what you need to say. Do not smile to soften the message.

      Know that if that doesn’t work, you will escalate the matter appropriately (stronger language and warnings – “If you don’t stop this, I’m going to need to discuss this with your manager / HR representative / the company ethics line / the EEOC” – followed by action) to make sure this is addressed.

      Once you know you can respond effectively, you will stop feeling powerless, afraid, or embarrassed about it. There is no reason to feel that way – you didn’t do anything wrong – but it’s very liberating not to worry about it.

      Second option – ask for help.

      If you really can’t manage to speak up, you can ask for help immediately, but it will be more effective if you have said something to the offender first. Sometimes a good manager or HR professional (or intern coordinator in your case) can help handle things even without your doing that, but it’s not my first choice and they may refuse to intervene until you have tried to address the problem yourself with an actual conversation.

      If you have the conversation and the disturbing behavior continues, do not hesitate to tell whoever you need to tell to get it to stop.

      There have been some interesting threads on harassment issues, but one clear theme is that most women get to a point in their lives when they no longer care about anything that inhibited their younger selves from responding strongly and directly. The advice from more senior professional women is speak up. Loudly.

      1. Intrepid Intern*

        Thanks for this, I needed it. I can’t really escalate it– well, I could to the EEOC, but hierarchy, he’s pretty much the top. But I hope I’ve built up enough credibility to be believed if it comes to the point of needing to involve a third person.

    3. Anonsie*

      Have you noticed at all that he does anything like this with anyone else? That might be a big clue-in to whether this is a cultural divide (where is he from originally?) or not, though I suspect sitting in the lobby to eat lunch while you and only you are there is a pretty big hint that it’s not.

      1. Intrepid Intern*

        I don’t see him do this with anyone else, per se, although I’ve seen him offer a stabilizing hand on the elbow of other women and elderly guests. There’s only one other intern, though, and he’s male. The supervisor in question is a bit of a… bully? petty tyrant? So I think this supervisor reads power dynamics pretty well, and I don’t think he’d try it with anyone he considers his equal.

        1. Anonsie*

          Gross gross gross. Gross. The most invasive people always know who to mess with and how to do it just so you know it’s wrong but can’t freak out. Unfortunately I have no advice, but you do have my sympathy.

          1. Intrepid Intern*

            Sincerely, thank you for your sympathy. This is really getting under my skin, but you’re right– a lot of it’s just this side of freak-outable. So I’m wearing higher and higher collars to work, and doing everything to find another job (and yes, I know skin showing =/= justification for anything he’s doing, but I just want to hide around him). At least confirmation that I’m freaking out about something feels like solidarity.

            1. Anonsie*

              People who do these types of things know full well they are doing something wrong, and they are skilled at skirting the line of consequences and making you turn it back around into your own head like this. It’s disgusting and I’m sorry you have to deal with it.

            2. jamlady*

              I know you mentioned in the original post that you were hoping to move up in this company, but I’m so happy you said you were looking for work elsewhere. This whole thing is really inappropriate. I don’t care if he wasn’t outright groping you – his touch was uninvited, unwanted, and has since made you feel uncomfortable and scared in your workplace. I do recommend pulling away immediately and saying that it makes you uncomfortable if/when he tries it again, but also just get the heck out of that work environment.

  110. Fucshia*

    What schedule do people here work?

    Movies talk about a 9-5 schedule for a 40 hour week. But where I have lived, 8-5 is the usual for first shift with an hour lunch and 8-4:30 if a half-hour lunch.

    2. Snork Maiden*

      8:30-5 weekdays, hourly pay, with half hour lunch, no coffee breaks (they’re optional in this jurisdiction).

    3. Kara Ayako*

      I’m salaried and usually work 9:00 to whenever usually around 6:30, but I can go later. I’ll take about an hour lunch, but I’ll work through it while eating at my desk every now and then. I’m typically available to take calls and respond to email evenings and weekends, but I don’t usually get out my laptop and actually work evenings and weekends.

    4. AVP*

      I am 10-6 or 9:30-6 if I’m feeling ambitious. My friends with kids in the suburbs are more likely to work 8-4 or 8-5.

    6. CrazyCatLady*

      8:00-4:30. I’ve never had a job where the hours were 9-5! I’ve had 8-5, 8-5:30, 7-4 and 8:00-4:30

    7. CollegeAdmin*

      Non-exempt employee, 8:30-4:30 with an hour unpaid lunch. It comes out to 35 hours a week, which I think is pretty common in academia.

    8. Amber Rose*

      9-5 has never ever happened. I sometimes got a 9-6 day when I was doing shift work as a cashier or in fast food. Usually on a weekend.

      Since moving to a fixed, Mon-Fri office schedule, it’s always been either like 7:30-4 or 8-4:30.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Salaried, technically I work 9-6, Mon-Thurs, 9-2 Friday. Lately, I’ve been working until 8pm and a few hours on the weekends. This will slow down eventually.

      3. Jennifer*

        The only place I’ve ever heard of 9-5 was in a movie.

        It’s always 8-5 here, except for the few months when I had to work a 7-4 schedule elsewhere.

    9. Xarcady*

      Right now, I’m doing 8:30-5 with an hour lunch.

      But this is the first job I’ve had that hasn’t been more or less 9-5 with a half-hour lunch. The hours have changed (8-4, 10-6, 2 pm – 10 pm), but the basic “work 7.5 hours with an unpaid half-hour lunch” has been pretty standard. Except when I worked for a state government–that was 7 paid hours of work and an hour paid dinner break.

    10. Clara*

      I am lucky enough to work a 9-5 schedule, but I typically don’t take a lunch break and I’m always available after hours. My boss is very flexible on hours as long as the job gets done. I’m salaried/exempt.

    11. Muriel Heslop*

      I have a flexible schedule – usually 8:30 or 9 to 4:30 or 5 (depending on when I get in.) It is so nice to have flexibility!

      When I was in the classroom, it was 7:30 am to 7 pm almost every day with a 45 minute working lunch. I dreamed of 8 to 5!

    12. C Average*

      Log on from home at 6-ish, work until kiddo awakens at 7-ish, wrangle kiddo, drop off kiddo at 7:45, ass in seat 8 – 5-ish (with an hour lunch or thereabouts, during which I goof around online but keep one eye on email and respond to anything urgent), log on from home to respond to anything urgent from Asia or Europe that comes in after-hours.

      No idea how many hours I work. My action items tend to be dispersed over a long span of time (could start as early as 5 a.m., could end as late as 10 p.m.–I don’t worry about what happens in between!) so I cut myself a lot of slack about taking goof-off breaks throughout the day or attending to personal things that have to get done.

    13. ExceptionToTheRule*

      I work nights 2:00 – 11:00pm four days a week & a day shift on Fridays from 9:15am – 5:45pm. I get a 1/2 hour unpaid lunch unless circumstances dictate that I don’t get a lunch (usually because of some type of severe weather.

    15. Al Lo*

      When I temped, I worked some combination of 7-8:30 start to 4-5:30 end. Very little around here is 9-5, but jobs varied from 35-40 paid hours/week, and 30 minutes to an hour lunch.

      The arts org admin offices that I worked in tended to be more along the lines of 10-6 (because people tended to be out in the evenings at events, if not in rehearsals or other commitments themselves).

      Now, in my current arts admin position, I come in sometime between 10 and 1, and leave sometime between 6 and 9 most days, but it’s super varied. Some days I work 6 hours, some days I work 10, mostly just based on what I feel like doing. I have certain performance/rehearsal scheduling that is set in stone (including, on average, 2 weekends/month), but my office hours are very up to me.

    16. skyline*

      I’m salaried. Work schedules vary in my job and industry, due to the need to cover open hours for our buildings. I would say 8-5 or 9-6 are the most common full-time schedules.

      Back when I worked in publishing, I actually did work 9-5 at two different places. That doesn’t mean we got paid lunches! One place had one-hour unpaid lunches and advertised the jobs as having a 35-hour week. The other had 30-minute lunches and advertised the jobs as having a 37.5 hour week. In conclusion: publishing is weird.

    17. Felicia*

      8:30-4:30 with a half hour lunch. This is a common schedule in other non profits around where i work as well. Over time is rare and we generally know about it weeks in advance (it’s only surrounding events)

  111. Colette*

    This is my first week of not going in to work, and I’ve been doing seminars through the outplacement company. They’re … not terribly useful, so far. They’re not awful, but, for example, yesterday’s was on a marketing plan. The concept is that you look into companies in your area, and determine what jobs, companies, company size, etc. you’re interested in. I don’t have a big issue with that concept. However, then you write that information down and have meetings with people to go over the document. That seems like a lot to ask – my schedule would be really full if someone tried to schedule a meeting of that sort with me. (To be clear, it’s not the “Hey, I’m looking for work. Here’s what I think I’d like to focus on – do you have any suggestions or feedback?” that I object to – it’s the formal nature of asking someone to review the document.)

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd*

      With people in the company you pick? How would that work?

      If it’s anybody in marketing and not a specific company in your area, I’d be happy to help. We can figure out how to exchange info if so, but it sounds like you need someone local, at one of those companies?

      1. Colette*

        It’s intended to be your plan for marketing yourself – so it’s intended as a networking tool. The intent is probably fine – you don’t want to have some pine ask you what you want to do and not have an answer – but the whole “share your document and get their input” thing is odd, IMO.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          It does seem odd. They’re the professionals at this and I’m not, but it does seem odd.

    2. it happens*

      I remember that from my outplacement firm experience. I think that the point of the exercise is twofold – get you thinking about what you want to do, for whom, so you can have concrete goals; and give you a non-threatening opening to networking – hey, I’m not looking for a job from YOU, I’m just looking for advice on this thing, and if you know anyone at these firms who might be looking, then, hey, that’s great…
      I learned something similar in asking for sales referrals, don’t ask someone if they know anyone else who might be interested in the service you provided them, ask them for a specific someone, i.e., do you know a family with children looking for a new house who might be interested in talking to me? – the specificity helps people picture an actual person they know instead of an amorphous contact in their list.
      TL; DR – it’s a tool not a rule, but it can be useful. Good luck

  112. JaneJ*

    Hey everyone, I’m about to make a move from a super small family company to a large corporation. I’ve only ever worked for small companies. Currently I have a wide purview and the power to make a lot of decisions quickly. At the new place, my purview will be much more focused. Anyone have experience with this type transition? Or have any advice? I feel like there are going to be big differences that I won’t expect.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I’ve only ever worked for small companies too, and I want to move to a large corporation. How were you able to make the move?

    2. Nela*

      Depending on the specific company you’re going to and your specific role, it can be a total nightmare or the best thing that’s ever happened to you. In my case, I now have a very limited scope of what I can make decisions on. Some of my work involves regional operations, it’s frustrating to me that I have to go so many levels up and out, to get a decision made. For example, I need a new backup battery for our office’s server. Can I just go ahead and (obviously with some consultation) order one or pick one up somewhere? Nope. I have to put in a request for a new battery, wait for the tech department to get back to me, tell them the issue, hope they believe me or go through their diagnostic check with them, and then they will order the battery at some point. I need to pay a vendor. Can I just go ahead and cut a check? Nope. I have to create a payment request, send a copy to our corporate finance office, wait for them to review it in their pile, and finally cut a check/wire payment. It can be really frustrating at times, but I know this is normal in my type of corporate structure. On the other hand, I have a friend who just moved positions within the same corporation and went from a similar situation described above, to a very narrow scope of responsibility and she loves it. She says she didn’t realize how much additional work she was taking on before, and how terrific it was to be able to focus on the actual work and one or two issues at a time vs all the procedural stuff surrounding the work.

    3. jamlady*

      I think it depends on what you’ve experienced with a small company. My experience has been meh. I’m used to people trying to make the office a family where no one ever gets in trouble for anything (ANYTHING), it’s super disorganized, finances are ALWAYS rocky so hours are always cut or you just get laid off, no room to move up, no way to deal with internal issues privately because hey, we’re all a family… Sigh. I personally like the arbitration policies and HR of big companies and there’s a lot more room to grow and learn (as well as more room for negotiation of pay/benefits). However, some people don’t like getting lost in the crowd or dealing with the bureaucracy. They’re just different. The good thing is that there’s also usually a lot of orientation and available advice just in case you do feel somewhat unprepared. I like working for big companies. Hopefully the transition will be easy!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Speak to everyone, especially those who speak to you. (Obvious? Well, not always.)
      Learn people’s names. It’s confusing, but make the effort. People who know people’s names and what they do tend to make out better in the long run.
      Assume everyone is related to everyone. This means no negative talk until you are 1000% sure of the landscape, which maybe never-ever.
      As others have said, assume there is a procedure for everything and ask before making any bold moves. You will only have to ask once per situation, then you will know the answer and reapply the answer to similar situations.
      Take an interest in others and expect that they may show very little interest in you for a while.
      The first day is the worst, put your teeth together and get through it. The second day is better you know where the bathroom is, where your desk is and that frees you up to figure out how the phone system works. Okay, maybe you won’t have those particular problems, but the point remains don’t make any judgments based on how your first day goes.

  113. Susan*

    I have an interview on Tuesday, and one of my anxieties whenever I have an interview is that I absolutely cannot manage my hair. I have naturally curly hair, and I feel like how it ends up that day doesn’t have to do with effort but luck. The more time I spend on it doesn’t necessarily equate to a better presentation, in fact, most curly-haired guides tell you to really limit how much you touch it due to the oils in your hands, so the longer you spend on it, generally the worse it will look. I have never really figured out how to get a blow dryer to not completely frizz me out, even with a diffuser. When I flatiron it, it gets … straight … but it is not sleek straight up and down. It has a very light weight, very poofy. People say add a little oil to it before you flat iron it, but this doesn’t do anything. I can get it to look pretty good if I add a lot more product but then it risks looking greasy.

    I’m curious about professional looking up-dos. I think that is what I might do. I’ve always considered an up-do a little casual (certainly a pony tail is), but maybe there’s a way to wrap curly hair in a bun that looks professional, as long as you have a little makeup and are dressed well? Does anyone have any feedback on that?

    It’s mostly so I don’t have to feel self-conscious. What I generally do that makes my hair look “ok” is that I’ll watch it at night and then put it in a really tight bun when it’s still wet, and in the morning it won’t be curly but instead wavy, and if i add some curl cream it looks not frizzy, if not a little limp and dull. But at least it doesn’t look like I just woke up or ran through a wind storm. I think it looks -fine- and no one thinks much of it, but on interview days, I wish I could look like I tried a little!

    1. GOG11*

      I have naturally curly-ish hair and I am not very good at all at styling it. Whatever it does is just sort of what I go with.

      However, I have purchased a doughnut bun thing and it works pretty well. You pull your hair through the center and then secure your hair around the doughnut shape, then wrap the rest around the bun itself and secure it. I then put a little bit of gel on a toothbrush and comb back the frizzy parts. If you do a google search, it turns up under “hair donut.” It does look a little “severe” but to me it is appropriately formal and polished for interviews.

      1. Susan*

        Ah, yes. I was looking for something like this. I feel like I have seen women put their hair up with like, not a clip but one of those things where it looks like you’re basically putting a rod through it and somehow it sticks, and I was imaging some sort of appliance when I asked this question. Something about a scunci feels off to me. Also, this is a pretty professional setting.

        1. GOG11*

          Does the rod look like a chopstick? That’s another option that worked well for me when I had longer hair – I’d gather all my hair as if I were going to make a pony tail, then twist until it starts to twist into a bun and then stick the chopsticks through. I’d sometimes thread one though the hair near the bun first for extra staying power (and so the bun didn’t untwist some). This works best with longer layers otherwise the layers don’t get tucked in enough and strands become loose.

    2. Kara Ayako*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a plain ponytail. Sure, it may be a tad casual for an evening event, but for an interview? If it gets your hair out of your face and makes you less self-conscious, go for it.

      I find new hairstyles on Pinterest, but I’m not super confident with it, and my hair rarely looks like it does in the pics. I’d rather go with something tried and true for a big event than something new.

    3. the_scientist*

      I went to my job interview (for my current job) with my hair air-dried in beautiful curls but it happened to be windy that day so by the time I got to the interview it was a bit of a (frizzy) mess. I got the job, but it’s made me wary of letting my hair be curly on “important days” (too bad, because I’d love to go curly to weddings etc.). Good hair days are TOTALLY a function of luck! I think the bottom line is that as long as your hairstyle is polished and not distracting, it’s appropriate for an interview. Greasy hair = distracting. Straight if poofy hair= probably OK. Messy topknot, overly “sporty” ponytail= maybe distracting. Slick low ponytail= not distracting.

      1. Susan*

        Yes, I usually air dry my hair for interviews (or, well, whenever I can honestly). This is the only way it looks good. I would literally wake up at 5am for an 11am interview to give it 4 hours to air dry, and then have a little time to take a curling iron to anything that went astray.

        I’ll take the non-distracting comment to heart. There’s probably someway to even do a half pony tail that looks mostly kept.

    4. StudentA*

      I actually think a sleek ponytail is awesome for an interview. I’ve seen ladies look great interviewing in ponytails. It shows confidence, and apparently makes people seem approachable. It also avoids the “I’m hiding behind my hair”, which I know I look guilty of sometimes.

      You could always go get a blowout, too.

      1. Susan*

        I guess my hesitation is that I’m not sure if what I’m doing qualifies as sleek. I can get the crown to be sleek for sure, without stragglers in my face, but the actual hair in the pony tail gets really, really big — and I mean not even necessarily clean curls. Like my hair does thing thing where some of it will be straight, some of it curly, some of it somewhere in-between. I’m worried it gives me this university “just woke up” look. I look fine/presentable from the front, but in the back it’s still really unruly. But I don’t know, how often do interviewers look at the back of your head?

        1. GOG11*

          I have this problem, too. I think it’s the mismatch of textures/”styles” that does it more than anything. Is there a way you could tuck the straighter pieces in under the rest? Or wrap them around the ponytail holder and bobby pin them (which might give an even more polished look)? I think if you were able to get it more uniform in some way, that might help. Depends on how varied it is throughout and how much of it is each type, though.

        3. StudentA*

          I have puffy hair too. What I meant by sleek is the sides mostly. I think the sides can either be combed straight, blow dried straight or wavy, or curled with a curling iron to give it some smooth curls and tucked into the ponytail. I think some curl product can make the ponytail itself look as polished as possible. I use a lot of product on my curls. Either a styling cream or a curl cream.

        4. AnotherFed*

          Is it long enough to braid? I have the same problem with never knowing if it’s going to be a wavy day, a frizzy day, or a random half and half day. If I throw it into a braid without drying it first, the frizz is minimal (though never gone) and it all frizzes about the same.

          YMMV, but a braid or a french braid would be totally professional in my industry. Granted, we have small scale rotating machinery in part of my workplace, so practical dress and hairdos are important. Nothing says unprofessional like a partial scalping.

    5. Mander*

      Urgh, I have naturally sort-of curly hair and it drives me a bit nuts. It’s fairly long so I usually end up doing some sort of variation on the French twist for anything professional but I can never get it to look sleek. Even after using a flat iron with the appropriate products it starts to poof up and look like a half-drowned poodle after an hour or so, and there are always bits that slip out and look messy. Or it immediately gets stupidly greasy and I spend the day looking like I’ve dumped half a bottle of olive oil on the top of my head.

      I should really start using an old lady style scarf on windy days so that I can let my hair air dry into somewhat nice looking curls and not have them destroyed the instant I step outside.

      1. Susan*

        It’s actually kind of reassuring to know that other people deal with this — although I’m sorry you share my pain! I feel like I’m inept at being an adult sometimes because it seems like most people look perfectly fine in professional settings, so clearly I just didn’t learn the secret!

        1. Mander*

          Oh yes. I feel like I failed at adult school. I recently spent a day watching YouTube tutorials on how to apply makeup like an adult because I so rarely wear any that it always came out looking strange and I’d end up washing my face before I went out anyway.

          Not that I was still wearing the sparkly blue eyeshadow or anything, I just somehow always looked off. I think I’m getting the hang of it now, though.

          Next thing is to try and do something sensible with my hair. I’m tired of looking like a half-drowned sheep!

    6. Xarcady*

      Spin Pins. If you want to make a bun, Spin Pins. They come under other names, and look like a two-prong corkscrew. They work in thin, fine hair like mine, and thick, curly hair like my best friend’s. Whoever invented these is a genius.

      IMO, a bun is professional, a pony-tail is much more casual. With up-dos, you want professional, not too casual and not to “fancy,” as if you were going out for the evening. Google “easy up-dos” for a lot of ideas.

      1. Judy*

        I’m one who has to use those grippy hair elastics, and the spin pins do not work with my fine, thin hair any more than most of the other products.

        1. Shell*

          My hair is like Teflon. I use both a hair elastic and spin pins if I want my hair to stay up in a bun. There are occasionally times where spin pins can hold up my hair without the elastic, but it’s completely random and even when it works, it doesn’t hold for that long.

      2. Book Person*

        Spin pins! My friends and I call them “devil pins,” since I don’t believe they could hold my hair up without some sort of soul-selling deal. I need 5 or 6, but nothing else to keep my hair tightly in place all day. I’d highly recommend them.

    7. Natalie*

      So, I’m aware that this isn’t an option for every field and I’m a casual industry, but my two cents. My hair looks 1000% times worse if I try to make it behave like straight hair. Any time I’ve attempted something sleek or flat, I look like a wire-hair dog. If I were to put it up in a bun, the sides wouldn’t be sleek at all – you would be able to tell that my hair was curly even with it up.

      I’m trying to take a lesson from professional black women, in a sense – perfectly straight, flat hair is not the One Professional Look to Rule Them All.

      My hair is cut kind of short (shoulder length if I were to brush it out) and for practically everything I wear it “down”, which ends up looking like a curly explosion halfro. I’ll see if I can find a picture later and link it.

      1. C Average*

        I am so with you on this!

        I wish I could have back all the hours of my life I wasted flat-ironing my hair, and I wish I could go back and have all the outdoors-in-iffy-weather fun I missed out on because I was trying to preserve a blowout. I also wish I could teach the Powers That Be that curly-haired ≠ flaky, disorganized, sloppy, unprofessional, etc.

        For years I’ve worn my naturally curly hair all one length, long, so I could slick it back and keep it tamed down. Recently I decided, to heck with that! I went to a stylist and got a long, messy shag (think Julia Roberts in the mid-90s) and I love it. It’s easy, it looks great, and it doesn’t require any styling devices, expensive products, or anxiety about the weather. For the first time in decades, I’m not wearing a bun every day. It’s really liberating. And I’ve gotten tons of compliments.

        1. Swedish Tekanna*

          + 100

          “A woman who cuts her hair is about to change her life.”

          (Coco Chanel)

      2. Windchime*

        Yeah, it’s sad that current culture seems to think that curly hair is “unprofessional”. (How is that even possible?). Disclaimer: My hair is mostly straight, but kind of wavy/frizzy underneath. It’s neither curly nor straight, basically. So I can’t say that I can relate to the struggles of keeping wild, curly hair contained but I have to say that there is something beautiful about wild, curly hair!

        Last year, there was a young man working at the drive-through restaurant who handed me my food through the window. His hair was a thing of beauty; big, wild, curly. I said, involuntarily, “Your hair is amazing!”. He smiled and I could tell he probably heard it all the time.

        Rock your curls. That’s what I say.

    8. it happens*

      Good luck with you interview. If it’s any consolation, as a hiring manager I’ve interviewed lots of people for jobs over the years and I can’t say that I ever noticed their hair or what they were wearing. I cared about how they acted and what they said. As long as you feel confident in yourself that’s what will come through.

  114. FD*

    So, after one of the craziest fifteen months I’ve ever spent, I’ve ended up in charge of the commercial leasing for my hotels. (Not a real estate agent, basically a landlord representative/property manager type role.)

    I’m taking us live today on social media, which is sorely needed. Our competitors have 1,000-15,000 followers, and we have a pathetic 33 (we had a Facebook page a few years ago but no one did much with it). Does anyone have any tips for how to build a following in this kind of setting? I’ve already let our tenants know I’m doing it so they can submit things like sales they’re having, pictures of new lines, etc.

    2. GOG11*

      I work in higher ed so this strategy may not apply, but I grew our twitter followers by following those who were suggested, other departments and organizations within the institution and even students within the major. The vast majority followed back. Are there licensing organizations in your industry on social media? What other services or sources of information might the people or companies you serve be interested in that would tie in with what you do?

      1. FD*

        I can definitely follow other businesses and local organizations! This is more about getting our name out there in front of the community and enticing businesses to come and rent from us, so connecting with current businesses would be a good idea.

        1. GOG11*

          I looked at the facebook page and I was wondering what else someone looking to lease space might be interested in. Are there local companies that do remodels? Interior decorating? Other things to get a space customized and ready to open? If they are shopping around for those things, maybe the would see your company’s stuff? (I’ve never worked on this sort of thing, though, so I’m not sure what order things go in).

          You talked about having tenants submit photos for posts…could you make a monthly/weekly feature where you highlight (insert tenant’s business, hot property, other thing that makes sense)? If it is planned and executed well and provides some benefit to the thing being featured, it might generate interest and submissions from your tenants while showing prospective clients what you do. It’s hard to be specific and to know if that would work because commercial real estate is so far removed from what I do, so sorry if that is way off base.

          1. FD*

            I love your idea about featuring other companies of use to them–that’s a great idea. Most of them are small businesses too, so articles of interest to small business people could be great as well.

  115. AcademicAnon*

    Question about resumes, I’m getting laid off sometime in the near future I work in research and my job description and title hasn’t changed over the time I’ve been here, for about 10 years. Would this form work or is it just too much like a functional resume?
    Project A 2006-2015
    Achievement 1, 2 3
    Project B 2008-2012
    Achievement 4,5
    Project C 2013-2015
    Achievement 1 + 6,7
    blah, blah, blah
    Journal Articles
    Author, Author, Author, ME, Author, Author in middle impact factor journal
    Author, Author, ME, Author, Author, Author, another middle impact factor journal
    Future articles
    40 Authors with me someone in the list, aiming for higher impact journal (which we won’t get into but which everyone tries first)

    1. ISO*

      Can’t say for sure w/o actually looking at the resume, but this does look good – talking about what you accomplished and how that can translate to what you can do.

    2. StudentA*

      I think the separated projects would be fine if they are under separate bullets, but not in the form of positions. So, I would list my position, and bullet points with your various projects, along with the various achievements, also separately. I hope you know what I mean.

      2. AcademicAnon*

        Yes that was what I was intending but my job title is really generic like “researcher”.

  116. ISO*

    Anyone have any tried-and-true methods for getting client referrals?

    I want to be professional but authentic – i.e. I don’t want to sound too canned.

  117. Not Here or There*

    I don’t really have a work question, but have run out of work steam. My work mojo is done for the day. We’ve got a big offsite meeting next week with the board of directors that I’ve been working my tail off to put together. Each person has changed their travel arrangements at least twice, and my boss has been the devil in the details for all the meeting set up. I still need to change travel arrangements (for the third time) for one of the people and my boss still hasn’t sent me the finalized packets to get them printed. Everyone else has gone home for the day except for me.
    All I want to do is mindlessly look at cat pictures on the interwebs.

    1. GOG11*

      It might feel like you’re undoing your own work by having to accommodate/facilitate so many changes in arrangements for people and it is a lot of work, but you can do it! Then look at cat pictures.

      As far as the packets go, does that have to be done today? If you have a normal leaving time that is approaching and you don’t HAVE to get them done today, could you check in and say so (professionally and tactfully, of course)?

      One of the most challenging parts of my job is switching from frantically working on X under a tight deadline and watching the clock until I finally have the information I need to work frantically and get X turned in by its deadline. I’m still working on ways to get my boss to give me work earlier so this stops happening so frequently.

      1. Not Here or There*

        Sadly, I’m nowhere near my normal leave time (2.5 more hours to go). I just needed to vent and my normal venting buddy is taking a two week vacation in Europe right now (super jealous, but not in a professionally inappropriate way).

        Unfortunately I do have to have the packets printed today, since they have to be professionally printed and bound and the only way I”m going to get them to the offsite meeting in another state by Tuesday is by getting them done today.

        It’s just one of those days where it’s been a long week and the next week will be even longer, and my batteries are simply running low (and my venting buddy is gone :-( ) I need my weekend to start so I can be ready for the craziness that is the annual board of directors meeting.

        1. GOG11*

          Oh, that’s rough – I’m sorry if my attempt to help did the opposite of helping. I wish you deft fingers for speedy binding and a long, refreshing weekend!

          1. Not Here or There*

            Nope, I just needed a good old fashioned pity-party (with cake and ice cream!)

  118. Laurie*

    I have been applying to new positions within management level. I have spent my entire career except for just recently as a manager or director within my industry. The current job that I am a technical team lead/Subject Matter Expert (I had to take due to the recession and being laid off twice before this permanent position) I have found great positions that are management where I am extremely qualified; however, I am not getting a hit. I feel that they are seeing my last position as non-management so I am not considered. How can I get around that?

    1. ISO*

      Have you focused your resume/cover letter on achievements?

      Also, it might be a matter of connections…

    2. Not Here or There*

      I had a somewhat similar issue when I was trying to get back into EA positions after having branched out to a non-admin role. With the other role front and center on my resume, I simply wasn’t getting hits (I got feedback from a couple recruiters about concerns that admin was taking a step back, which is silly because EA work was a lot more high profile than being an entry level dept employee). I reworked my cover letters and resume to strongly highlight my admin experience and any projects in my most recent position that were relevant to admin work. I made sure to emphasize in my cover letter that I was excited to get back to the admin field and why, and how my non-admin work strengthened my candidacy in X,Y, and Z ways. I found that by directly addressing the issue in my cover letter, people took my applications more seriously and I got a lot more hits.

  119. ISO*

    Also, not a question but more of a vent:

    When starting a business, you don’t really make a profit right away… so why do some lawyers decide they’re going to charge you _Upfront_ for handling the legal aspects of starting a business? Can’t they wait until I’m profitable?

    “Because they’re lawyers, that’s why”, I can hear you saying. But many lawyers aren’t really that bad.

    2. Colette*

      I don’t think there’s any reason why they should wait – they’re providing the service now, they should get paid now. It’s a start up cost, like buying equipment or leasing a building.

      1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

        This, exactly. Is your landlord waiting to be paid until you turn a profit? How about the electricity company? The store that sold you the equipment you need to run your business? A lawyer is a service provider, just like any other service provider – you pay at the time the service is rendered, not at some nebulous point in the future when you feel like it.

    3. Amber Rose*

      But what if you’re never profitable? What if you go down in flames and file for bankruptcy and never pay? (Not saying you will, but I’m sure some do.)

      It’s not because they’re lawyers, it’s because they’re people: they want to get paid for the work they do and pay their own bills.

    4. fposte*

      I’m not seeing this as a horrible thing, to be honest. You’re basically asking “Why aren’t people willing to do work for me for free?” And the answer isn’t because lawyers are bad, it’s because people don’t work for free.

    5. Steve G*

      Legal fees should be worked into your profit and loss statement before you calculate net profit, and should be included under the general and administrative cost sections (I believe). So you can be paying for legal fees without being profitable, because you already baked in some # for legal fees into your books.

      My guess is you are using the term “profitable” to mean turning a net profit (all revenue – costs to produce goods – operating expenses – general & administrative costs = a positive $$$) and not just a gross profit (all revenue – costs to produce goods = a positive $$$), because the latter should always be positive over the long term unless you aren’t selling anything……

    6. TNTT*

      Because you’ve asked me to perform a service for you, and for that service I want to be paid.

      Not a question, but a vent:
      Why do people single out lawyers as a profession where, for some reason, they should do their job for free?

      1. fposte*

        They don’t single out lawyers–it’s just confirmation bias. I don’t know any profession that isn’t asked to work for free with some frequency.

      2. AnotherFed*

        Every IT professional, comp sci, or engineer will tell you it’s us who ALWAYS get asked to be free tech support for everyone who knows us… regardless of whether our jobs have anything to do with that.

    7. Shell*

      Even when businesses are profitable they don’t always pay on time. Why should your lawyers take that kind of risk?

    8. Not So NewReader*

      For the same reason the oncologist has a sign that says “no credit cards”. They want their money, no excuses.

  120. A Ballsy Person Would Use Her Regular Name*

    What would you do if you found out a coworker is making $40k more than you (in the same position)? I know how the circumstances under which he came to his fortunate position are not the norm, but normalizing for that and different experience and time in the job, I still think I’m at least $10-12k underpaid, and in another year, I could make the case for that being $15-$20k. Easily. (I’ve only been in this position 6 months, which is how *I* got to the pay scale I’m on. My pay is consistent with 10 years of 4.5% raises, no promotions or accounting for increased responsibility.) In this role, I have done really well since I started. I’m very productive and get good client reviews, but I’ve been told that getting a salary bump is incredibly difficult (like some people have been terminated on paper just to get it done). We’re getting annual adjustments this month, but we have a mid-year raise that some people get for this type of thing (the purple unicorn raise). My raise this year is actually based on my performance for my old position, which ended in August.

    Do people think I’m justified in asking for a raise, considering that I took a new position with no raise? Even after only 6 months (a very good 6 months, though)? My husband is like “you are on crack, go in TOMORROW and ask,” but the more I think, the more I talk myself out of it.

    1. Colette*

      Is the $10-12K underpaid in relative to salaries at other companies? It sounds like you changed jobs within the company – is that correct?

      You’re probably better off waiting a few more months – 6 months isn’t long, and the time to negotiate was when you took the job. However, if you were an internal transfer, you might have a little more leverage. What does “terminated on paper” mean? Did they essentially fire and rehire people so that they could justify a raise? If they had to go that route, what would it do to your health insurance/system access/etc.?

      1. A Ballsy Person Would Use Her Regular Name*

        Yes, it was an internal change. When I took the position, I wasn’t sure where I was at relative to others, and I was kind of a wild card for the new department. Still probably should have negotiated, but I wanted out of my old position.

        You’ve correctly interpreted “terminated on paper.” It’s about justifying it to corporate. It’s easier to do that than to get it through they system. I don’t know all the details, but it would be a huge PITA if you had to get a new employee ID or lose insurance.

        I should also mention the annual adjustments are based on your rating, and everyone gets the same % at the same rating earned. . .so, you’re always going to be behind.

        1. A Ballsy Person Would Use Her Regular Name*

          (and by employee ID, I’m referring to your system access, not the ID badge. Don’t care about that.)

        2. Colette*

          Hmm. I’d suggest you talk to your manager – i.e. “I’ve done some market research, and most teapot designers in this market make Salary + $10. Can we talk about how to get my compensation up to a competitive level?”

          I’d start that conversation maybe three months before your annual raise cycle, on the assumption that it might be easier to justify money when they’re already talking about salary.

      2. A Ballsy Person Would Use Her Regular Name*

        Oh, and I’m not sure what the salaries are at other companies, but they’re all competitive. There are three competing companies in the area, so people play the game of going between them to get raises. I worked at one for five years before my current company.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I an executive assistant who makes about 30K more than most of the other admins here. They find out and end up hating me (our salaries are public) and then using my name during their review to try to get more money. Here’s why I think “tough noogies” when I hear they are pissed: 1. I have a degree from a top univ. and most of them have no degree at all (which is silly to me because it makes no difference regarding job ability). 2. I was hired during a very good economy and starting salaries dropped by over 10K here. 3. I work for the most “difficult” dept. here and do higher-level work than they do. 4. I have earned the trust of our senior staff and they want me to stay so they pay me well. 5. My first boss here was a rich investment banker and was used to giving out huge raises so I got a few 10% raises in a row.
          I only gave all of these examples to show that there might be reasons for it that you don’t realize. But if you are the only person making that much less than I guess it couldn’t hurt to ask for a raise.

          1. A Ballsy Person Would Use Her Regular Name*

            I do realize the reason. He is the outlier, and I do know why. It’s not 1.,2., 3., 4., but more similar to 5. We’re very comparable on 1-4, and actually started at the same (other) place doing the same thing, and I have just 2 years less experience. He had really good luck when he moved to this company.

            I’m not bothered by him at all. We all get that he had special circumstances. It’s the first 0-$20k that I feel I’m leaving on the table.

    2. brownblack*

      I recently found out I make quite a bit more than others in my office who do the same job. Not $40K, which is insane, but a good $10K. It makes me uncomfortable but what can you do. Sorry I have no advice for you. I’ve just been thinking about this a lot lately.

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      I was in the smae situation at my old job, there are a number of reasons for the difference in pay.

      Alisons written about it before:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2014/05/my-coworker-makes-more-money-than-me-but-we-do-the-same-work.html

      6 months is no time at all so wouldn’t even think of asking for a raise before a year is up, and do not mention your coworkers salary when asking for a raise you want to focus on your value to the firm and the market rate for your role.

      Ultimately you should be prepared to move on to get the salary increase that you want.

      1. A Ballsy Person Would Use Her Regular Name*

        To be clear, this concern is not just based on the coworker’s information, as I do understand his extenuating circumstances. I wouldn’t dream of $40k more, but based on other information. I know my pay grade band. (We have rate sheets for clients, and I know that the value on the rate sheet is an average and I can estimate a range from that with a little statistics). I now know I’m on the low average side, but based on my performance and experience relative to everyone in the group with this position, I think I should be on the higher side of average. If I bumped up the $10k I’m thinking, I’d still have ~two more years of growth for the typical annual raise before going up a grade level (and actually more than that because the bands go up.) The coworker in this discussion is up to that next grade level, so he’s not even a factor in calculating where I fall in MY pay grade.

        But, agreed if I can’t get what I want, there are outside options. (And I agree with you 6 months is too soon. Ideally, I’d be waiting until after I get my rating for next year, so I’d have about 15 months. If I could get a top rating, I’d have a better case, but right now I don’t have a review rating for this position at all.)

    4. it happens*

      Another element to factor into the timing of your discussion is the company’s budget cycle. Managers (normally) can’t just give people raises when they want to – the year’s compensation budget is set well in advance. You want to make your request when your manager is just starting the budgeting process for the next cycle – not after it’s done.

  121. Some*

    How do you hire new graduates? They don’t have experience. How do you test if they are detail oriented? Do you give them a simple problem before you schedule them from onsite or during?

    1. KMC*

      I look at their resume and cover letter very closely – but we do that for anyone we hire. If I find typos or non-consistent grammar/capitalization on a document they (in theory) spend a lot of time on, I assume that they’ll miss things in everyday work.

      I still haven’t found a test that will show if someone is detail oriented or not!

    2. GOG11*

      I don’t hire new graduates, but I do hire students, some of whom have little experience. I pay attention to how they apply (do they just throw a resume out and hope it sticks or is their application tailored to the position)?, how they communicate, if they were able to follow directions, etc. When I’ve got a smaller pool (narrowed down from phone screens and an in-person interview) I rely on references, usually professors, to find out whether or not they tend to be conscientious, mature and dedicated to the obligations they take on.

      Do you screen for detail oriented-ness in other applicants, as well? If so, why not use that same method?

      I did find a post on a blog I recently started reading about tests an EA had to take to demonstrate her abilities, a few of which relied on manipulating information provided in various ways. Depending on what job duties require attention to detail, could you develop something like the ones listed but tailored to the nature of the work you’re hiring for? (I’ll put the link in another comment)

    3. Bonnie*

      We hire new graduates and we find that even though they don’t have job related experience there is usually a group project, social event or volunteer opportunity they can draw from to answer questions about it.

    4. AnotherFed*

      Give them a sample problem during the in-person interview, if it’s something you want to see their process on as much as the product, and beforehand if you want to let them take their time.

      I’d also ask them questions about how they have handled situations or ask for examples of times they used skills you need them to have. Good applicants will be able to give examples of how volunteer work, student jobs, or class projects required similar skills or taught them how to handle situations. For example, if you need really detail-oriented people, ask about the most complex project they have worked on and what their role in it was. Ask follow ups on how they kept track of all the details, how they managed all the small tasks along with other schoolwork, how they prioritized competing tasks to ensure a high quality final product, etc.

  122. Jessica*

    JUST got an email that related really well to a discussion from last week (this week?) about men doing heavy lifting and moving at work. I’m going to summarize, but it’s about Girl Scouts being able to participate in a sand castle contest in our town. They said that a certain number can be sponsored and they’d like girls and parents to help. Then went on to specify that they’d especially like dads to be involved, so they can do all the moving and heavy lifting of the sand bags. Followed by a smiley face. This is Girl Scouts….meant to empower girls. Honestly, though, you would not believe the number of emails I get from them that imply very similar things about dads being involved in “men’s work” jobs.

    1. Jessica*

      And I, by no means, think little kids should lift heavy sandbags just to prove a point, but I bet they could via teamwork and certainly some moms and older girls are capable too. I get really sick of GS constantly sending mixed messages, often in these subtle ways.

      1. Celeste*

        I can’t stand what the GS org has become and I’m so glad my girl is done with it.

        Also, I’m pretty sure they can order sand in bags that the kids can lift, for gosh sakes.

        1. Jessica*

          Currently a troop leader and I’m already planning how to make a club on my own. I wanted to love it so much more than this, but I feel like they are a shell of what they used to be. Also, crap like this happens: there were cookie inventory issues this year and I kid you not, people were screaming and yelling at the wonderful volunteer that distributes them from her house (cupboard). This woman had nothing to do with it and she volunteers another 40 hrs/week on top of her full-time job. Screaming. Over cookies. Combine that with the fact that troops only keep $0.60 from every $4.00 box.

          1. Celeste*

            I was Cookie Mom for the troop 2 years in a row and it’s a real bitch. I had to take vacation time to deal with cookie stuff and it gets old fast. That org crushes its volunteers. Yet Boy Scouts is a completely different org and it WORKS. When my D is 14 she wants to be in Venture Scouts, which is co-ed Boy Scouts. Works for me.

      2. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

        First of all, just get smaller sandbags?

        Second of all, not only can I out-deadlift my husband, I can literally deadlift him (my max lift is heavier than his body weight). So our future daughter is definitely going to be wanting mom when it’s time to lift heavy. I completely agree that this is particularly annoying coming from GS specifically.

        1. Jessica*

          Awesome! These castles are massive (over 10 ft tall) so maybe they need bigger bags. But still, I get what you’re saying and it’s BS to assume women can’t lift that.

          1. Manda*

            There should be a risk assessment for the activity – when I did one for our office water cooler it did hurt the feminist in me to state that in order for women to change the bottles we would have to order smaller bottles, otherwise it’s a men-only job due to their greater muscle strength.
            I’m sure there are some women that are stronger than some men and that muscle-strength can be built but the average man is stronger than the average woman. Safe lifting and carrying methods need to be discussed so no-one hurts themselves – maybe wheelbarrows could be used, filled to a certain level.

      3. Natalie*

        Oh man, this bums me out so much. I was never a Girl Scout but I was so impressed with their values.

        1. Jessica*

          I know! I always feel so rotten when people say they want to make a donation to the troop by buying cookies and they think our troop keeps the majority, when we only keep 15%. There’s been quite a few articles about how the cookie sales are mostly being used to bolster the pension plan, which was underfunded by $350 million, last time I checked. They are losing membership like crazy too. And they’re selling off properties. It’s really sad, but then I see how incompetently run and disorganized they are and I am not surprised. As a volunteer, I’ve offered MANY times to do stuff for them that I’ve noticed is inefficient or doesn’t provide enough resources…haven’t heard one word back. One last gripe: most of their websites are terribly disorganized and hard to navigate. I am never able to find anything I’m looking for and there are so many broken links. Drives me NUTS!

    3. Elkay*

      UK Girl Guides has a horrible attitude towards men, simultaneously depicting them as useless/unable to cope and required when bodies are needed to staff an event.

      1. Kerry (Like the County In Ireland)*

        I’ve looked at the Baden-Powell Service Association–I like that it’s co-ed and all ages, and that yeah it’s got all that crazy rules and reg stuff some people freaking love, but can be more freeform.

  123. StudentA*

    Let’s talk business travel!

    1. Do you fly business class or coach? Might help to know if you work for a nonprofit!
    2. Do you like or dislike business travel?
    3. Tell us anything you want about business travel. A horror story, something cool that happened, a place you never thought you’d see, but did….whatever you want!

    1. brownblack*

      I love business travel. Love love love it. I worked for a big university a while ago and I got to do quite a bit of travel domestically and internationally. I also planned large-scale trips for groups of donors and alums and so on, many of which I went on. At my next job, there were a couple of very obvious needs for business travel but my boss didn’t think it was necessary for me to go, and that always disappointed me.

      I always travel cheaply – coach flights, cheap hotels, cut corners whenever possible – but that’s just my travel style.

    2. Steve G*

      Good experiences for me……got to see some places in the US that you wouldn’t go to on purpose (not enough to do there) but were cool to see for a day or while I was there)….including many of the other cities in the NE, and even Newport, RI in the summer (very lovely!)

    3. Colette*

      Everywhere I’ve worked has done coach (and I’m in high tech, so definitely not non-profit).
      I don’t mind occasional business travel, but I wouldn’t want to do it often.
      My coolest business travel trip was to Botswana. I had been traveling for 36+ hours, and our local agent met me at the airport. We got in the car and started driving to the hotel, and a monkey ran across the road. I was all excited, and he didn’t even pause what he was saying because it was a normal thing.

      1. Judy*

        I worked one place where any flight over 7 hours, you could get business class, I never traveled internationally. My next company would allow you business class on your 3rd overseas trip in a year (5th overseas flight). Effectively only director level and above would be able to fly business class, the rest of us never traveled internationally that much in a year. They did allow us to expense the “economy plus” upgrade when offered.

    4. Not Here or There*

      I love business travel. I’ve worked for government, corporate and currently non-profit. I’ve traveled both coach and business. The best airport in the world, in my opinion, is Korea’s (Incheon), I always try to fly through there when I’m going to Asia.
      The worst however if when you have to take a red-eye and then be ready for a full day of work as soon as you land, esp if you’re in a really different time zone.
      My biggest horror story isn’t really that awful, but I was sick with a fun stomach virus and got to the airport about to embark on a 10 hour flight only to find that my company’s travel agency somehow hadn’t actually booked the flight. They’d sent me a confirmation like they had, but the airline couldn’t find it anywhere. It was after hours at the agency and I had to wait on hold for an hour on the agency’s emergency line to get any answers. Then I had to buy a waay more expensive ticket to get on the plane, and my credit card wouldn’t accept the charges (over the travel limit) and I had to call them. I almost missed my flight, and when I was finally settled in my seat I realized I had left my cell phone at the ticket counter. Oh, and I spent almost the entire 10 hours of the flight in the bathroom.

    5. puddin*

      1. Coach, which is generally fine. (For profit)
      2. LOVE IT – keeps the romance strong at home, gets me out of the office but still productive, and boosts my creativity.
      3. I have been to nearly every state in the union and love every square inch. Even the dinky towns I go to are interesting to me.

      I prefer driving trips to air travel – if its a 10 hours drive or less no plane for me. One of the best parts are that when I am driving long distances I totally rock out and sing/scream along to my playlists. That is the only time I do that really – its like a travel ritual for me.

    6. C Average*

      1. I’ve done both. Business for long international flights after which I was expected to go immediately to work upon arrival, coach for domestic and for international flights at the beginning of a weekend (allowing for sleep/recovery before going to work). I work for a for-profit corporation.

      2. LOVE it.

      3. On my first day in Amsterdam, I went directly from the airport to our contact center there. I was jet-lagged out of my mind and didn’t have an international plan on my smartphone (thus, no way to reach anyone easily) and didn’t have a solid plan in place for who would meet me and when. So I came to the door and, seeing a green button beside an icon displaying a door opening, I pushed the button (because green means go and the icon means “open,” at least such was my assumption. There were some Dutch words beside it, but I didn’t speak a lick of Dutch. Turns out it was the emergency door! Alarms sounded and the building was evacuated. The people with whom I was supposed to work found me in the crowd outside and I had to sheepishly confess that the whole thing was my fault. Awkward. The story still gets told.

      I also got to spend my 40th birthday on a business trip in Tokyo! That was awesome.

    7. Kara Ayako*

      I always book coach, but I fly enough that I get upgraded roughly 50% of the time which is awesome.

      I love it but could handle a maybe 10% decrease. I like seeing new cities and meeting new people (despite my introversion). I’m also a sucker for rewards programs and status and am therefore fiercely loyal to Delta and Marriott.

    8. Natalie*

      My boss bumped me up to business class last time I flew and it was totally worth it. Mainly because I got to skip ahead to the front of the ID/ticket line.

    9. AnotherFed*

      1. Coach, unless I have enough points for a free upgrade. Government, so not for profit AND with the fun of justifying every expense.
      2. Love it! It can get tiring when you’re spending lots of time on travel and still putting in 40 hours of real work, but it’s so cool to get to go places that I wouldn’t otherwise go to.
      3. Amusing story: When I was about 22, after getting packing help from my BF, who was former infantry and really believes in packing light (having to carry everything with you does that), I packed no spare jeans, only work clothes. On the flight out, the flight attendant dumped someone’s glass of tomato juice all over me, but the jeans got hit worst. So I spent the next 4 days having to go out after work in either red jeans or work pants. The work attire was way more dressy than any of the engineers I was with would ever go out for dinner in, so I ended up wearing the tomato jeans. Now, I would just have gone and bought a cheap pair, but at the time, it just didn’t even occur to me as an option!

  124. Mander*

    I’ve asked something similar before but I’m still not sure about what to do.

    Here in the UK most jobs use a “person specification” that has a list of essential and desirable criteria that you have to meet (well, the essential ones anyway) in order to be short listed for the job. If you don’t have one of the essentials then you won’t even be considered. Sometimes you can just discuss them in a cover letter, but I’ve been told recently that you really need to go through every single criterion, under a separate heading, and give a “STAR” (STAR = Situation, Task, Action, Result) example of every single one.

    Between around 1998 – 2001, after I finished my BA and then decided to go to grad school, I worked in various administrative and customer service type jobs. From 2001 to 2012 I was in grad school (two different degrees), and since I finished my PhD I’ve been unemployed/marginally self-employed as a freelance editor. I’m hoping to get into something like archives or information management.

    These jobs are old, and I’m in a different field now, but several of the jobs I have applied for recently have specifically asked for experience in an office environment, with customer service, and other stuff that I did in those jobs but haven’t done since. I’ve stopped putting them on my CV but for jobs that use this very formulaic, application-only process I am wondering if I should include them after all so that I can then talk about my experience with an example to refer to.

    If I do include them, can I condense them into a single entry (administrative posts including customer service, blah blah blah…) or should I break them down by job? Should I include the 4-month temp assignment from 2006 where I was specifically hired to reorganize the manager’s office and put her files in a sensible order so that she could find them again?

  125. Amber Rose*

    I have a question about email etiquette.

    Recently I did up a few sets of promotional items for a show we’re doing in a couple months. One set is to invite some cooperative businesses to set up displays, and another set is just invitations to come. I worked hard on this, I’m so excited to be sending it out.

    So my thought is two mass emails. Do I use BCC? Is it rude or weird if I don’t? This isn’t sensitive info, and most of these people work with each other, so I’m leaning towards not using it so they can get an idea of the guest list.

    Man. I wish they taught a class on business email in university.

    1. Colette*

      I’d use BCC. It eliminates the risk of someone replying all, and it avoids giving a nice juicy list of contacts at different companies to someone who might misuse it.

  126. brownblack*

    I recently started a job as an exec assistant to a super high-functioning executive at a big high-profile organization. Several departments were combined and placed under her leadership, so my role (and, really, hers) is new.

    I am gradually realizing that the staff of our department are basically seizing the opportunity to use me as a dogsbody (to use a British friend’s favorite phrase.) My boss assigns me challenging work that I feel like is moving the organization forward, and we have a great relationship. But at least a quarter of each day is spent working on things that have been handed off to me by various people in the department; it’s as though when I arrived they all went through their list of duties, each found the one or two least enjoyable and most complicated things, and transferred them to me. I can envision meetings taking place before I arrived, where each department got together and said “what do we all hate doing? We can give it to the new guy!” Believe me, this didn’t happen because they are overwhelmed with work.

    I get exciting and challenging work from them too, but I am really getting worn down by all the stupid crap I have to do, ALL of which is isolated, decontextualized bits of other people’s jobs, and which for that very reason I cannot do very well. (I could offer specific examples that make this quite clear – I’m not just “having trouble adjusting”.)

    I’m hesitant to bring this up with my boss, because it’s not really a significant complaint per se, and I am not the type to whine about my work unless there is a specific identifiable problem with potential solutions. I’m not sure if I’m even looking for advice necessarily. I love my job in general, but this is the only thing that is really getting to me, mostly because I can’t do any of this extra stuff to my satisfaction.

    1. fposte*

      I’m not clear–is your job supposed to include supporting these other people?

      Because if it is, it sounds like this might actually be appropriate delegation, even if you’re not enjoying it. If it’s cheaper for you to do these tasks than for the people you support to, it’s likely to be an organizational win for you to tackle them.

      I think it’s okay, and even advisable, for you to talk to your boss to clarify how much support you’re supposed to be doing for the other positions, if there’s a question (“Currently that’s about 25% of my workload–is that about what you’d anticipate?”), and to identify priorities if you’re getting too much on your plate. But a lot of assistant work includes the kind of stuff you’re talking about, too. So getting some clarity early in the game would probably be helpful.

      1. brownblack*

        Well, my job is essentially “support executive” and “other duties as assigned.” Each department within our division has its own administrative assistant, and I guess I’m flattered to be getting work that is more complex than they would tend to be assigned – and I certainly make more money than they do, for what that’s worth – but that doesn’t make it any better. Our roles are not so sharply defined that you could call this stuff outside my job spec; I am happy to support everyone in our division, within reason, and I know my boss expects me to do so. I just wish the other departments hadn’t taken this approach to “using” me.

        It mostly irritates me that the stuff I don’t like is all so, so clearly part of other peoples’ jobs that they just don’t want to do. I’m hardly overwhelmed by it, which is why I say this isn’t a significant complaint; I can handle all this stuff, I just don’t like it!

        1. Artemesia*

          The duties assigned should come from your boss not be handed off by others. I would stop that immediately. But first sit down with your boss and discuss the use of your time and how being used as a dogsbody is taking away from the priorities and tasks the boss is assigning. S/he should make it clear that s/he is the only one to assign you work and that if others need assistance, they need to request it of the boss. This is a pattern you want to break before it is the norm that you are everyone’s gofer. top executive assistants are high level critters and are not everyone’s dumping ground — it undercuts the boss’s prestige as well as yours to do this. In the short term, it might be ‘oh I’d love to help you with that but I have several projects for Boss and it will be several days before I can look at that.’

          It may be that you are the office drudge — but don’t give that away unless your boss really sees you in that position.

          1. brownblack*

            This is excellent advice. I am too quick to please and just accept whatever assignments get tossed to me.

    2. Not Here or There*

      Blarg, this almost always happens when I start a new job as an EA. It is a thin line you have to tread. A couple things you need to establish are:
      1. Who you are responsible for supporting? Do you support just the exec, or do you support his team or even his whole dept?
      2. If you support more than just your exec, what types of assignments can/ should you expect? This question seems hard to ask but it’s important to establish what the expectations are and how work should flow. Basically, you need to establish what you have to say yes to and what you have the power to say no to.
      3. How should you prioritize work? It’s good to sit down and figure out how much time each task takes, and if you find you can’t do all the things you boss wants you to do, plus all the things his team wants done, how does the boss want you to prioritize that work. Which assignments take precedence?
      I have this conversation with my boss pretty much every 6 months (because people come and go and priorities change), but I always have this conversation with my boss whenever I start a new job (usually a couple weeks in, so I’ve got a better idea of the lay of the land). I know it seems like a silly thing/ complaining, but it’s really important to do because then you know you’re on the same page with your boss and understand what kind of support they expect. And if you’re having trouble with a certain kind of assignment (not just that they’re not fun or challenging enough, but that it’s so disconnected from what you do that you don’t have the tools or what have you to adequately complete the task, that’s also something to discuss with you boss. Not in a complaining way, but as a question like “I’m having difficulty doing A because of X,Y, and Z. How can I get the tools I need to make this more efficient). Oh… and don’t hesitate to reach out to any fellow admins, they can usually help you figure things out because they’ve been in your shoes before.

      1. brownblack*

        This is good advice. I must say, I’m sure a big part of this is the fact that I’ve never been an EA before; in fact, I have done the same job as the executive I’m supporting, just at much smaller organizations. I should stress that this isn’t getting in the way of my success in this job; it’s just irritating. She talks frequently about us being a “team” and it’s clear that I have a role to play in supporting all the departments in our division, even doing things that she herself would normally do (like taking meetings with key people, or drafting sensitive correspondence, and so on), which is another thing I love about how she envisions my role. There’s just a disconnect between that and the “please smooth over our relationship with this horrible vendor I don’t want to deal with anymore” stuff that the other departments tend to send my way.

        1. Not Here or There*

          Yeah, unfortunately a lot of that stuff comes with the territory of being an EA, and every exec wants a different level of support. I’ve gotten to do some crazy cool things as an EA (travel, meeting with high-level people and government officials, etc), but the flip side is my job is to be support and to take some of the more mundane and less pleasant work off other people’s shoulders. (See my whining above…) I’m here to make them look good, and the better, more efficient I make my exec and her staff, the better I am at my job. Smoothing things over is kind of the EA specialty :-)

        2. Lily in NYC*

          Hi, I am a senior EA and this still happens to me; everyone wants me to be the one to help because they know I will do it well. And these people have their own assistants! It’s time to discuss it with the boss and you can do it without it seeming like you are trying to shirk your duties. Just say something like “you know I’m always happy to help people; it’s my nature to be a team player (use phrases that she likes). But i’ve noticed that people are starting to dump work on me that is clearly not in my job description. Am I supposed to do all of these things or should I push back so I can prioritize my normal duties? I’m just looking for guidance on how to handle it when people give me unsavory tasks that are not the normal tasks under an EA’s purview”.
          Another method is to be a bit sneaky. When someone gives you a crappy duty, just say you are in the middle of something for big boss and is there a reason “their dept admin” can’t handle it? If they know they are giving you things to do that they shouldn’t, they will probably just take it back and do it themselves. But your boss sounds like the type who might have told people to give you whatever duties they want. I used to have a boss that would “pimp” me out willingly to other executives and I hated it.

          1. Not Here or There*

            Hmm… yeah, if it’s something from another dept that has an admin I would gently push back, and if it’s another admin trying to give you work, then I would definitely (but nicely) push back. Since I’m typically supporting an exec, I can usually push back by saying something like “I’m working on a big project for Executive Joe that he’s delivering for to the CEO next week, is this something Jane, the admin for your department, can work on?” Pulling rank can kind of smooth it over.

  127. Jubilance*

    My company announced extensive layoffs and I’m absolutely sick about it. Looks like my old team/department is going to be hit hard and I’m really worried about a couple of friends. I know this is the way business is, and in the long-term its good for the company, but I’m still absolutely sick about it. I’m also hunting because I have no idea if I’m going to be affected.

    2. Colette*

      That’s tough. Sometimes it’s as hard to know people who will likely be laid off as it is to be laid off yourself – and dealing with both at once is a pain.

    3. C Average*

      Oh, man, I’m sorry. No advice, just virtual hugs or drinks or whatever brings you solace. It’s tough whether you stay or go in this situation.

    4. Sherm*

      (Is this pharma?) I’m sorry to hear, and I hope you’re not affected. You are definitely not the only one, if it’s any consolation.

  128. AvonLady Barksdale*

    My new-ish job, which I’ve had for 3 months and love, is threatening to make me insane. I’m working on three simultaneous projects for a very high-level client, and there are still parts of our process that I don’t know. There are a ton of moving parts, constantly changing deadlines, major pieces that have to happen the same week, etc. I also have a junior staffer who is responsible for a lot of technical work and she is stretched so thin (by other projects, not mine, but mine still needs her attention) that there is no way we can sustain this for the long-term. So I am managing my own sense of panic and feeling overwhelmed with a responsibility to her. For what it’s worth, we just got approval to hire a peer for her, but of course that’s not instant. I am not up-to-speed on some of the more technical aspects of her job because it’s exclusive to us– so I can’t jump in and help her. She told me she doesn’t want me to as it’s her wheelhouse.

    So my question is twofold– how can I keep her head above water and mine at the same time? I want her to feel ok coming to me with her stress, but I also know she knows I’m overwhelmed. Any ideas?

    1. C Average*

      Been there, done that. The only way out is through, I think. But if you can convey to her that this is temporary, help is coming, and you’re open to her feedback, that’s a great start.

      This is kind of a crazy thought, but if you two don’t talk on the regular, can you set up a walking meeting? It’ll get you some fresh air and exercise as a respite from the craziness, and walking side by side (rather than maintaining eye contact, which can be uncomfortable when you’re trying to be honest) is really conducive to good communication flow. (I’ve always intuitively understood this, but I’m learning about more effective communication as part of trying to help my teenage stepdaughter through a rough patch, and our counselor made this suggestion. It’s proven really helpful.) Frame it as just a touchbase, with no specific agenda and no specific boundaries.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        That is such a great idea. We’re encouraged to get out and think away from the office. I usually make her come get coffee with me, but since the weather is improving, I might make her go further afield.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd*

      The deadline management is going to be key.

      She sounds great so involve her in choosing her own deadlines and helping you figure out what final deadlines are even possible?

      I get the feeling responsible part. I found myself being too overprotective of my direct report staff at one point. They used to be n00bs and then the grew into experienced professionals and I was still being too over protective because I felt responsible to not ask “impossible” things of them or stress them out with tough deadlines.

      I was super stressed about it and then one day banged myself upside the head and said, time to make it collaborative and stop taking this all on myself. It really did work. Sometimes they could commit to more than I would have asked them to do on their own and sometimes they just helped me problem solve in making choices what to 86 or what deadlines to push out.

      It’s the way we work now and I am so much less stressed.

  129. Ineloquent*

    Frustrating preformance review last week.

    My performance over the last year has been stellar, wowing my managers and leadership team. I’ve held my department together in a tough situation, despite being new to the role and lacking formal training. It has been recognized by everyone, both verbally and in the form of monetary compensation (decent bonus from the director, gift cards, little presents, and awards from the people I support.) The side compensation has amounted to approxiamately 5% of my salary.

    My performance review resulted in a merit increase of just over 3%, which is apparently high for my group this year. My manager started talking about how he’d like to promote me/give me a better raise, but I lack the right amount of direct experience for the role. He also can’t bump me up just like that because there’s people in my immediate organization who have been with the company for much longer without that sort of promotion or raise. When I asked what I should do to become eligible for those things, his only response was ‘Keep doing what you’re doing’. Which is great, but I want to do better.

    How do I wrangle useful feedback out of my manager?!

    1. Graciosa*

      I think I need to understand exactly what you want to accomplish.

      If “useful feedback” means information about what you need to do, you have it. You’re doing all the right things and just need more time. This is very positive feedback.

      If “useful feedback” means you want to know how to get promoted now, even though you have clearly been told that you lack the sufficient direct experience for a promotion – you’re probably out of luck. Your boss has already told you it will take more experience, which I would interpret as meaning it’s not going to happen until you have more experience. This will take time.

      If you want information, you’re in luck – you got it. If you want to change his mind – I wouldn’t be too optimistic, but it does sound like the company is pleased with your work and trying to make sure that is reflected in your compensation. There are worse positions to be in.

      1. Ineloquent*

        I guess what I’m looking for from him is suggestions for getting more experience so that I can progress in my career and be more valuable to the company. I don’t feel the need to change his mind on a promotion/raise this year (which I honestly agree might be premature, but hey – he told me that this is what HR told him when he went to get it for me, which I neglected to mention before), but I also don’t want to be one of the people who stay in the exact same position for ten years.

        1. Graciosa*

          In that case, I would ask him that question – but be prepared for the possibility that the answer is that it will happen naturally over time.

          Good luck.

    2. fposte*

      I think you may have gotten useful feedback, which is that he doesn’t have a specific track in mind that would lead to promotion.

      It’s possible you could propose specific projected improvements and growth, but even then I don’t think he’s likely to be willing to commit in advance, so I’d try for an “Is that the kind of thing that might help?” rather than a “Will this get me what I want?” But ultimately I think you’re better off making peace with the fact you’re not going to get metrics for this–and you might want to think about the fact that you are growth-hungry in an organization that doesn’t sound like it has an institutional practice of rewarding growth.

      1. Ineloquent*

        Good suggestion, thank you. I am optimistic that recent shake-ups in structure will allow more growth in my department. But if ultimately that sort of upward growth remains unavailable, I’ll just glean all I can from this opportunity and look elsewhere, as Artemesia suggests below. It’s a shame, because I have a pretty cool job, actually, and I’ll be sad when it’s time to move on.

    3. Artemesia*

      The boss has told you that you aren’t going to be promoted and that in spite of your good work you have to just get in line and wait. This is your clue to go find a better job if you are in a position to do so. Businesses which operate this way don’t change and often the only way to get an appropriate raise is to go elsewhere.

  130. ism*

    This has been a really rough week. On Monday, the HR lady had paperwork for me to sign to get company health insurance. I had some rather specific questions for her that required me to explain my current private health coverage situation, so I could make a better informed decision about whether to take company health. During the conversation she kept cutting off my explanations and giving me answers to questions I wasn’t asking (basically reading the paperwork to me, as if it weren’t there). During out second conversation that day, after an hour and a half on the phone with my current insurer, the HR lady said that I was “argumentative” and “acting like a know-it-all” and that she couldn’t help me any further.

    This took me completely by surprise but I think I handled it OK. I softened my voice and looked her in the eyes and said I’m sorry it came across that way, and that it was not my intent to argue, and I don’t in fact know it all about health coverage, which was why I had asked for her expertise and advice. She did not even verbally acknowledge my words and so I excused myself to solve my problem on my own. (I ended up having to take the employer health plan, even though it’s not as good and more expensive, because now being eligible for employer coverage means my Obamacare premiums would have shot way up past the affordable level).

    Anyway, I was still shocked and offended. I’ve had a feeling I can’t substantiate for some time that the HR lady isn’t a fan of mine, but I have no reason why. Finally, I talked to my boss (the general manager). I started the conversation with “Normally if I have a conflict with another employee I’d go to HR, but the conflict is with HR herself. Can we talk?” My boss thanked me for telling her, and confirmed (!) that HR lady does not like me. My boss said if I have any other issues with HR lady, to let her know, and that she has my back. I felt slightly more relieved. I don’t know what I would have done if my boss wasn’t a higher-up/senior to the HR lady.

    But then came Tuesday. My boss had me doing some grunt work in the warehouse, which she does when I’m not busy. It’s not my favorite thing. The warehouse culture is very different from the office culture, with a very different group of employees. The warehouse people (mostly men) all joke around and play rough. I’ve reported on them for safety violations (guys playing Frogger by jumping over a row of moving conveyor belt for example, when they thought nobody was looking), but they didn’t know it was me and it wasn’t a big deal. And usually, when I am in the warehouse, people tend to tone town the kind of off color commentary that keeps everyone entertained in that department. They know I’m the Boss Lady’s assistant, I think, and have always treated me respectfully, even though I don’t have any authority over them and I’m sort of “reporting” to one of the more senior workers when I am sent back there. (As a side note, I really think that sending me to work in the warehouse slows them down. I’ve never been formally trained on the work, and I’m there so rarely that I usually forget things and need to be shown what to do by a busy person. I don’t know why my boss doesn’t just let me work on the project she gave me that I’m actually excited about and could go on my resume!)

    But by the end of Tuesday I had a new complaint: Inappropriate sexual comments. Near the end of the day I was working with a group of guys unpacking some boxes. At one point I was bent over, digging deep into a box. One guy directly behind me said, “Ohhh yeahhh that’s what I’m talkin bout!” I looked over my shoulder and saw he was staring right at my ass. Another guy, directly in front of me, made eye contact with the first guy and said “Yeah that’s right!” A third guy working next to me was right there to hear it all, but wasn’t looking at me or saying anything. I was shocked, and extremely uncomfortable. I stood up, threw down the contents of the box, and gave each of them a cold stare while I tried to collect my thoughts. I think one of them said “What is it?” after seeing my face. I lost all courage and muttered something like “Uh, I lost count” and walked towards the bathroom. Right then the whistle blew and it was time to go home so I didn’t even go back for my jacket, I just got the hell out and stewed about it all night.

    Naturally, an incident like this has to be reported to guess who? The HR lady. That’s why I stewed about it, and probably the subconscious reason I didn’t march straight into her office to report these guys. I don’t want a reputation as an argumentative know-it-all thin-skinned tattle tale at work, but it might be too late.

    Stay tuned for Part 2 of this story when I feel like typing some more.

      1. ism*

        I’m exhausted. Long story short I stewed some more and told my manager, who told HR lady, who did the standard procedure to meet with the guys, who denied it and had some other story including me remembering wrong which guy made the comment, and nothing really happened. i’m afraid to see them again but we’ve been off work due to weather since then. i’m encouraged to report further stuff, and this time hr lady played on my side. i don’t know why. probably only because my boss was holding my hand, figuratively.

    2. Steve G*

      Your HR Rep is crappy. If she had more experience, she’d be able to handle this conversation without a script and would have a better feel for how to handle your questions. Don’t take it personally. She sounds like she is in above her head………..

      1. ism*

        It’s very much an old wive’s club. She’s been there for over 20 years, like most managers there. It’s strange. I get the impression from many people that asking a lot of questions about everything is unfavorable behavior. Only my manager has gotten used to it, but we work closely on a daily basis unlike the others.

  131. jobsearching*

    When you are interviewing what are examples of questions you ask to get a sense of your potential manager’s management style? There are certain traits my current manager has that I want to look out for, but I don’t know how to ask without it coming across negatively.

    1. Bonnie*

      Try imagining what a good relationship with your manager would like and based you questions on that. If your current manager micromanages, try asking about flexibility and control over how you do the work. If your current manager only communicates with you when he is yelling at you about what you did wrong, ask about opportunities for one on one coaching and professional development support. In other words, don’t ask about what you are trying to avoid, ask about what you want instead.

    2. Steve G*

      If I have to make xyz important decision, can I make it myself, or do I need to call you? If I need to talk to you, how do I handle such decisions when you are out? In the same vein, how big-of-a-decision can I make on my own? (of course asked in a way that is tailored to the job, for example in mine “how big of a check can I ask accounting for before I get your approval?)

      I usually come early, but in a snowstorm, if I’m running late, do I have to call you? It may create a logistical hurdle, because if I’m late because of weather, I’m most likely caught in traffic and can’t use my phone………then let him/her react

      If you asked for an analysis or report, are you the type that would give me a general description to me and then let me design it, or would you send me an excel template with fields to populate?

      If you weren’t available when I needed a management decision (give an industry specific example, for ex., customer will cancel immediately unless he gets a discount), and I make the decision myself, would that be a problem? Would you rather I wait until you are available, which may exacerbate the situation?

      1. AnotherFed*

        And ask how long the training/probationary period would be. It’s great if the manager delegates big decisions down to trusted employees, but how long will it be before they expect to give you that responsibility? If it takes years, that might not be something you’re willing to wait on. On the other end of the spectrum, how much training would they give you before expecting you to be able to make significant decisions? Do they expect you to pick everything up without any training or guidance?

    1. dd*

      For me I consider it 1-5 (maybe up to 10) years employment experience with no management/higher level experience. Other indicators would include: always been paid on an hourly basis or your salaries were always at the low end of the range. For someone at entry-level, they may not have a lot of knowledge in their industry. Another big indicator is if you’ve had very little or no responsibilities, (i.e. didn’t have to make important decisions) in your past jobs.

    2. PBS*

      You might be entry-level, if you always held the lowest position in your department. Though, this does not apply to all departments/fields.

      1. Steve G*

        I don’t agree, for lots of fields that is a $50-$60K 2-5 years experience job, at least here in NYC.

        I would count entry level as either under 5 years total experience AND 1 or less years in the specific field of the opening. I think you can spend a couple of years putzing around fields, but if you do that long enough, you lose the “entry level” tag, even if you have lots of general experience. Applying to entry level opening past your late 20s is fruitless IMO

  133. Relosa*

    Hey guys! Question about interview attire!

    The sitch: Open call interviews for service jobs (very common here, even for more entry level professional positions).

    Today is my birthday and I have a few things planned this afternoon. In the downtime, however, I have a couple of open call interviews I’m going to stop in at. I still work tonight. All of these things are planned in one area of my city, and I don’t have a car so I’m suffering with transit and lets just say I really don’t have the option to traipse back and forth between the city and my house.

    I’m already planning to bring a change of work clothes with me – stopping by and leaving them at the bar so I don’t have to drag it around with me. I’m applying for more bartender jobs at these open interviews. Right now I’m planning to wear nice skinny jeans with flat soled knee boots, an orange blouse, and an off-white jacket – it’s my go-to power woman outfit. Everything is clean and in great condition. Should I haul along a set of slacks and loafers for the interviews, or do you think for open call this would be ok?

    (I know these aren’t suits and its a WTF NO! jeans?!) but again these aren’t scheduled. And I didn’t know about them til just now. I have the correct materials and I can ace interviews well, just kind of at a loss for dress code on this.

    Thanks!!

    1. C Average*

      I think it would be fine. It sounds flattering and stylish, and where it’s an open interview, I’ll bet most others will be similarly dressed.

      (I’m writing this in Portland, Oregon, where I am 100% confident it would absolutely fly. Depending on where you live, the standards might be more formal.)

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      At least in my area and field (community-based charity), a suit isn’t necessary and can look tone-deaf. However, jeans can be taking things too far. I want you to look like you knew you were coming to an interview. I wouldn’t rule you out over jeans alone, but I would question the choice, and it would not make a great first impression. Unless you’re applying at restaurants or retail, I would choose some other pants.

      1. Relosa*

        I agree that if I were the employer, jeans would come off as impractical – bartending is sticky and messy. At the same time only formal restaurants have any firm bar dress code. Thanks!

    3. BTW*

      If you are going to open call interviews for bartending jobs I would think that showing up in slacks and loafers would make you over dressed. I think your outfit sounds great and is perfectly acceptable.

      1. Relosa*

        That was my thought too – the jeans are a step in the wrong direction but so are the slacks for practicality. For example my main field is tourism and attractions – I dress a step or two up and conform to the extremely strict grooming standards in those situations. Partly because the business is conservative but also because of safety – having to be constantly aware of body space at all times, so no loose jewelry, loose hair, or anything drapey or floaty. There are similar concerns here as well but something else I have to consider is the “look” that sells drinks. Whether or not I agree with the psychology, too many studies show that women who makeup and dress well in service jobs have higher sales and tips.

  134. peanut butter kisses*

    I am going out for a company happy hour tonight. Due to health issues, I cannot drink alcohol, caffeine, or be around too much smoke. Does it look awful if I order a Shirley Temple or water? It isn’t a command performance but I want to look like team player. Also, I am not sure if this is significant or not but there are rumors that one of the co-workers drinks way too much. Should I offer to be a designated driver for that person?

    1. Colette*

      Ordering something non-alcoholic should be fine, but I’d probably avoid water. (I don’t know why it seems like not the best choice from a perception problem – possibly because it’s usually free.)

      I would not offer to be a designated driver – it means you’d have to say until your coworker says, and ultimately her transportation is her responsibility.

    2. Xarcady*

      Club soda or tonic water or even ginger ale with a twist of lime or lemon looks enough like a drink that no one should notice.

      I get very tipsy very fast on very little alcohol, so I never drink outside the safety of my own home. Once I started getting club soda with a twist of lime, all the comments about what I was drinking or why I wasn’t drinking stopped.

      Too bad you can’t have caffeine, because otherwise you could pretend a Coke or a Pepsi was rum-and-coke.

    3. Dawn*

      You can also discreetly give the bartender a heads up and they could put something non-alcoholic in a cocktail glass if you wanted to look like you’re participating without actually drinking. I do this all the time at parties- have one hard cider, then fill the bottle up with water so it still looks like I’m drinking.

      1. Relosa*

        This. I am a bartender and have no problem hiding N/A drinks. I will usually even comp them an upgrade (ie, additional can of soda or something) or still make a tasty virgin beverage if they like :) we also usually have extra unlabeled alcohol bottles near our rail that are just water, for either watered drinks or training/counting /cleaning

        Professional bartenders won’t give you crap for not drinking. They’re still providing a service and are happy to see a sober person in a group, regardless whether you are the DD or not.

    5. some1*

      “Should I offer to be a designated driver for that person?”

      Not specifically, that’s kind of presumptuous. When you are leaving you could ask if *anyone* needs a ride.

      1. Xarcady*

        And only, if I may be frank, if you are willing to run the risk that they will throw up in your car.

        I would also have at least a vague idea of where the person lived before offering a ride–you don’t necessarily want to drive an hour out of your way and then another hour back to get someone home. Calling a cab for them is an equally good alternative–gets them out from the driver’s seat, but you don’t have to spend your time dealing with a drunk in the passenger seat.

    6. jamlady*

      I have chronic migraine with a million dietary triggers – I only drink water and tea. No one has ever questioned that and it’s none of their business what I drink anyway. What if your stomach hurts? What if you’re trying to be healthy? I really don’t see why that would matter. But yeah, bartenders will give you N/A drinks on the sly with no problem if you think it will be an issue (though I’m kind of annoyed with the people attending your happy hour if it is).

    7. peanut butter kisses*

      I went. Everyone was terrific but I could barely hear anyone. I had a soda and tried to chat with people with all the noise. I left after a half of an hour and I hopefully fit in a bit with the crowd. I am just not comfortable in crowds but again, everyone was so very nice. I also now think that the reports of someone’s drinking problem have been greatly exaggerated, thank goodness.

  135. Anonsie*

    Another question: Does anyone have a good suggestion for methods (or even iOS apps) to easily track their business travel expenses vs their daily allotment while running around on a multi-day trip?

    In the past I’ve just had a note on my phone with a line for each day and the total and subtracted out every expense after I paid it, which is aggravating when I was in a hurry. I don’t care about managing receipts (that’s easier) so much as just making sure I can actively see what I’ve spent in a day and what’s left. I upgraded my phone recently so I can do some more sophisticated stuff, but I’m not sure the most effective way to go about that.

    I’d like to just be able to punch in “$24.13 GO” with one hand and have it deduct from the total/add a line item I can label at my convenience later. For extra fun, I have two budgets– one daily for food and one for the entire trip for other expenses. It’d be really cool if I could I considered just making a spreadsheet that does these things but that is a little fiddly for the aforementioned hurried times, so if there’s some more clever way I’d like to hear it.

    (Yes I am really looking forward to all my upcoming travel, thanks for noticing :3)

    1. dd*

      I’m sure there are. Just do a search (“budget tracking apps”). Sorry I don’t know any off the top of my head. I usually like to make a note of it in my budget notebook at the end of the day.

      :)

    2. dd*

      You made me curious. I went to look after my previous post. There is one that looks good: Budget Tracker. You can use it on your computer and there’s also an app. Plus, it’s FREE!

  136. Dawn*

    Teeny tiny question here that I’m rolling over in my head:

    On Monday, I sent a “1-week after the interview follow-up email” to the CEO of a small company who I interviewed with the previous Monday. He responded “We want to utilize your skills and talents. We have a deliverable on Wednesday, and I will contact you Wednesday or Thursday to discuss further.” OK, so far, so good, sounds like they’re going to make me an offer, freakin’ SWEET.

    Didn’t hear from him Wednesday, no biggie, he’s got a deliverable, I understand. Thursday was a snow day (I’m in NoVa) with everything shut down, so I didn’t expect to hear from him and I didn’t. Today (Friday) I haven’t heard from him by 3:30pm and I know their office closes at 5, which I’m like OK, well he’s probably playing catch-up from the snow day yesterday and trying to cram in all of today’s work as well.

    Anywho, basically if I don’t hear from him by COB today, would it be appropriate to email him sometime Monday morning and say something like “Hey, didn’t hear from you last week, still looking forward to speaking with you?” My professional instinct says yeah, that’s fine, but I want to be extra super duper sure I’m not being annoying. I’m also keeping Allison’s advice in mind where she says that if a company wants to hire you, they won’t forget about you, and it’s helping. But internally I’m still going “OH MY GOD DUDE JUST CALL ME OR SEND AN EMAIL OR WHATEVER AND TELL ME WHEN WE’RE GONNA TALK I’M GOING INSANE OVER HERE!” so I want to make sure I’m not overreacting by sending a “nudge” kinda email on Monday.

      1. Dawn*

        Ah, so a week after the first day he said he was going to contact me? Gotcha. Grrrrr……

        1. Relosa*

          Yeah that is generally the first day I will allow myself to revisit and consider following up. Take into account the time frame you’ve already experienced with them. Snow seriously sucks and it can take several days, nit just one or two, to catch up from storms and blizzards

    2. Graciosa*

      You’re overreacting a bit.

      Review Alison’s posts on candidate time versus employer time. This really is not a long delay in the business world, and you’ve already followed up once (which should be your limit). Assume you didn’t get it, move on with your life mentally, and enjoy the pleasant surprise if you do happen to hear after all.

      Good luck.

  137. Officially a loser*

    Well, I’ve been trying to get a job since the new year. I’ve been a SAHM for 3 years. I never thought it would be so hard to go back. I wasn’t getting any bites on the applications I was sending out in January. Thanks to all of the great advice on here, I re-worked my resume and cover letter and have been on 5 interviews in the past 2 weeks. One interview I flubbed completely (she asked a vague (aka stupid) question and I took it in the absolute wrong direction). Another, they had hired an internal candidate and just wanted to check the box by interviewing me I guess.

    Last Friday I went on an interview that went great. It is basically my dream company, in the perfect location. The hiring manager asked me repeatedly if I had tailored my resume to the position because it was such a perfect match (I hadn’t actually, it really was just exactly what I used to do…back before I had kids and ruined my chances of getting a job apparently.) The HR rep told me before the interview that they had over 200 applications and they only called me and one other person in to interview. After such a great interview, I thought I had a pretty good chance. I just got the call that they went with the other person. (Note to HR reps everywhere: it is definitely NOT better to get a call. Please just email me so I don’t cry on the phone!) Ugh, I just feel like such a loser. My resume isn’t the problem because I’m getting calls. It’s clear I haven’t worked in a few years because we go over it during the phone screens. So it must be me!

    1. Dawn*

      DUDE. You’ve been job searching SINCE JANUARY. You’ve had FIVE interviews. You were a finalist for at least one of them. Like holy crap that’s INSANE. I’ve been job hunting for six months and have been on three interviews!

      Deeeeeep breath! You’ll find something great, and when it comes it’ll come. The job that you didn’t get was not the job for you, so you didn’t get it. But obviously you’re desirable and companies want to bring you in and interview you, so of course something great will come along!

      Also don’t feel bad about “flubbing” an interview question- good interviewing takes practice just like everything else, and it’s not really something that we get to practice a lot. Just look at all of the interviews you’ve been on so far as practice for interviewing for the Perfect Fit Job, make sure you learn from all of them and really hone your interviewing skills, and thus turn the negative of not getting a job into the positive of learning from the experience :)

    2. Colette*

      It’s probably not you, it’s just the market. And 5 interviews in 2 weeks is fantastic. You’re doing fine, it’s just often a long process.

    3. puddin*

      Hon – I am in the same boat! Been applying since Jan, got 4 interviews so far. Wrecked one (the rejection was no surprise), rejected for two, and I declined the offer for one.

      I am a little depressed by the experience – Not because I feel rejected but because I want to be done with this process already. For one round of interviews I had to take off for 2 hours on three different days in the same week – only to be told that “all the managers were impressed by you but we decided to go in another direction.”

      Its just soooo frustrating I know. But you are getting great results on the apps you are sending out as Dawn mentioned. I try to think of it this way…I am no worse off because I was not chosen for a job. I do not want anyone hiring me with doubts so it is best to not get the jobs I am rejected for. It takes a lot of convincing, but I can get myself to understand that if they don’t want me, it is best that I did not get that job.

    4. dd*

      Sometimes it’s just because it was not meant for you. The same thing happened to my cousin. She eventually got a job she wanted (and it was better than the previous ones she interviewed for plus it was close to home and the others weren’t). In hindsight, all the other jobs she interviewed for were really just preparing her for the real thing.

      1. Officially a loser*

        Thank you all for the encouragement. I do feel like my interviewing skills are improving each time I go in. I hardly get nervous at this point! I just really am ready to find the right job…I just hope it’s out there and that someone will give me a chance!

    6. just laura*

      I mean this to be helpful, so I hope it comes across that way: I catch a lot of negativity in your post. I understand you’re upset, but there are a lot of blaming terms– interviewer asked a dumb question, they were just checking a box, being a SAHM ruined my opportunities… I point this out because I wonder if it’s coming across somehow when you interview and is either making you seem defensive or somehow not a great fit on a personality level. Could that be impacting things?

      1. Officially a loser*

        Well, I was feeling pretty low when I wrote that, but I do think it was a truly dumb question that she asked! (I even texted my old boss and asked what she would have said. She had a totally different take on it than me, and different than what the interviewer said was the answer she was looking for. Basically it was just super vague and lacked context, and could have been answered in many ways.) AND. I usually wouldn’t assume the worst after flubbing a question, but it was her first in a long list of technical questions for me, and when I didn’t get it right, she ended the interview.

        And at the risk of sounding even more defensive, I said they were “checking a box” because I interviewed with 2 people for that job, and neither of them asked me a single question. Nada. Just a chit chat. I actually wrote in to Alison about that interview because it was so weird. When I followed up the next week they told me an internal candidate had already been promoted.

        I really have been upbeat during my interviews, thinking that each one might be *the* job. It just hit me hard today because I thought things had gone really well, but they clearly didn’t.

    7. Steve G*

      Aw, I feel bad, that must feel really…bad….hopefully something good is coming down the pipeline for you. Sending good vibes out for you!

  138. Career Crashers*

    I work in a fiercely competitive field. In recent years, I’ve become more successful and I’m starting to encounter people who seem to perceive me as a threat and try to undermine my success. It’s often quite underhanded and manipulative stuff. Looking for any and all advice on how to deal with such people in situations where they can’t be avoided.

    1. Dawn*

      Completely ignore it. Be ridiculously polite, professional, poised, and never retaliate or ever say anything bad about anyone else no matter how badly you want to. Your reputation will precede you, and theirs will to- so if you have a spotless reputation even in the face of adversity and rivals, that will reflect insanely positively on you.

      Also major kudos that you’re doing so well that people are jealous!

      1. Laurel Gray*

        Dawn has some great advice here! Kill people will kindness and professionalism. On the outside looking in at these kinds of interactions, you will almost always win. And you can kill with kindness, poise and professionalism genuinely. To be young and successful (and a threat!) I get the feeling that you already possess and utilize these skills!

        Slightly off topic but do you mentor? I have always found that people like you seem to make great mentors. They “pay it forward” and in many cases the “threat” turns into utmost respect and credibility. One of my mentors is very much how you describe yourself and it took about two solid years before I seen her outside of being “on”. She has the professional/polite/poise (PPP) down solid. Good luck and keep doing what you do!

        1. Career Crashers*

          I do mentor! I’ve volunteered as a teacher and I also informally reach out to people and give them encouragement and advice. In my field, a lot of people seem to have an “eliminate the competition” mentality, but I think you get farther in the long run by helping other people out.

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd*

        This is seriously the way to go.

        Never engage. Always be above the conflict, the operative word being “above”.

        I have little dogs who get yappy and ferocious at any dogs they see. Other little dogs get yappy and ferocious back. Big dogs, on the the other hand, virtually never bark and instead take on a bemused expression. My dogs exhaust themselves and the big dogs never break a sweat.

        Actually powerful people behave like the big dogs. Truth coming to light might require a nudge from time to time, but always on your own, patient, time table and not in direct reaction to somebody’s overt threat.

        Is my strategy.

        1. Career Crashers*

          Yes, this and others’ advice has been my strategy. Great to hear some assurance that I’m doing the right thing! I’ve had a few moments where I slipped up and expressed my true thoughts about a situation, but it’s been far removed from the event and only when talking to other people who were involved in some way. I try really hard to take the high road in these kinds of situations. When people ask about my involvement, I just say, “Yes, I helped them with a project. I really enjoy helping out with other people’s projects when the need comes up,” then change the subject.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            I added a few thoughts under Steve G’s comment below. His input is good.

            I don’t mean “always ignore and never take action”. Over the course of my career, I have had to take action on serious underminers on several occasions.

            My first reaction is to remain calm and assess the threat. If the threat level is high enough (they are in position to do damage to me or damage to the progress of something that is critical to me), then I plan my next steps to neutralize them.

        2. Stargazer*

          I really like this. I’m going to remember this when dealing with bullies at work.

      3. Anonsie*

        Agreed.

        In addition, be extra communicative with the people you need to look upon you favorably and who see the results of your work. Make sure they hear– from you –what you’re doing specifically, what’s going on overall, what your results are at that time, and make sure they hear it frequently. Not in a braggartly way, just as status updates, so they know what’s what. People can’t plant the seeds of your incompetence in other’s minds if you’re already gardening there.

    2. Steve G*

      I think it depends on what way the industry is competitive. Are sales opportunities rare? Are high wages rare? Are good jobs hard to get? Is it hard to climb the career latter? Are all of the good jobs in random places?

      Because I don’t agree the “ignore it” advice in certain situations. Yes, you can ignore it, but that doesn’t solve much. If someone is trying to undermine your sales efforts, and you never talk to the person at a competing firm, they will keep undermining you. Sometimes it makes sense to befriend people you feel tension with….

      A word of warning….most people don’t undermine other people for absolutely no reason. Maybe you used to work 11 hours a day, then got a huge promotion, and now only work 9, IDK what the scenario is, but when other people are criticizing/undermining us, sometimes you have to see if there is a grain of truth in what they say…and yes I’ve had my issues that have made me look at myself….

      Good luck!

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I agree. There’s extra levels of what to do next after you decide to not appear to be in open conflict with another party. It’s about strategy.

        Is there a grain of truth? Well that’s helpful feedback because if you’re alienating a bunch of people, it might not just be your wild success they are jealous of, you also might be overtly annoying about it at the same time. (Not that I’ve ever had that issue in my life :p) Modify annoying things about yourself in order to gain more allies and fewer underminers.

        And, if the underminers are having immediate affect on your opportunities or career, you do have to take pretty swift action. Years ago, one of my top inside sales reps came to me about another long time rep who was going out of her way to steal as much business away from top rep as possible. I kept my eye on it for a bit and then was like woah, why did you not bring this to my attention earlier? And my top rep said, well, I don’t like to complain or make a fuss. I said, girl, this does not feed your family.

        The employee in that situation waited way too long. She already had the reputation of being above conflict. She could have traded on that long before she actually did and gotten assistance. (Compare and contrast to a situation where two bickering sales reps would come to me fighting over this or that and neither of them would look good in that light.)

  139. Loom Knitter*

    I was wondering what I can expect from office cafeterias? On Monday I will be starting a new job (yay!). It will be my first working experience at a large company (previously I’ve only worked at small companies of about 30 people) and therefore is the first place I’ll work at that has it’s own cafeteria. My past jobs were close enough to my home that I could drive home from lunch, but the new office will be just a bit too far to do this. Since I’m not used to eating at a work cafeteria (or really eating lunch at the office much at all) I do have some questions on what to expect.

    Is going to an onsite cafeteria usually pretty quick, or can it get long with lines, wait times, etc? Do you find you are more rushed when eating at the cafeteria as opposed to bringing a sack lunch?

    I’m someone who likes to have my lunch as some “me time” to read a book, browse the internet, or just spend some time alone. For those of you who are the same way, are you still often able to do this, or is there pressure to socialize with coworkers while on lunch?

    I know these questions may vary by office, just hoping to get an idea of what to expect!

    1. GOG11*

      Where I work has a couple of cafes, but I’ve never gotten lunch from one (I just bring a lunch and eat with others who do), so I don’t know how long that one takes, but it wouldn’t be odd for someone to eat by themselves. It is open to students as well (I work at a university) so there’s a lot going on other than coworkers eating together so it’s not like someone reading by themselves, especially if they did so at a 2-person table, would be descended upon by a group of well-meaning coworkers.

      My ex used to work at a place with a cafeteria and I would visit him on lunch sometimes. It never took very long at all for him to get his food. I think it depends on the size of the cafeteria and the number of employees, though.

    2. Beezus*

      My workplace has a cafeteria. I’ve waited 5-10 minutes in line before, but that’s on the extreme end, there’s usually only a person or two in front of me. They have quick cold stuff (cold cut wraps, salads), a couple of hot menu items that are ready to serve up immediately (those change daily), and an ala carte grill/fryer menu that you can order from if you’re willing to wait 5-10 minutes for your food. I’ve sat in there and read a book or read my phone over my lunch period. A few times, it gets a bit crowded, and someone I know might plunk down at my table (4-person tables) to share rather than take up another table, but most of the time I eat alone if I want to, and people who seat themselves together usually arrive together for that purpose. If I am super antisocial that day, there’s also a bank of bar stools at a counter along one side where I can sit alone (although in that case, I usually just take my food back to my desk or grab fast food and eat in my car and listen to music.)

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      You could always bring your lunch and eat at a table. Cheaper, too, unless the company also pays for your cafeteria lunch. A lot depends on what kind of cafeteria it is, how it’s laid out, when you go for lunch. If the lunch bell rings at noon and everyone is down there, yes there probably will be lines. But honestly until you get there and see it for yourself, there’s no way to know.

      Will you be pressured to eat with your coworkers? Possibly, I think that’s going to depend on how quickly you make friends, what the corporate culture is and how sensitive your coworkers are to things like that. Some people simply do not understand the need to be alone and may think you’re standoffish (rather than just plain introverted). Others will respect that you want to read by yourself and leave you alone. Once again, you aren’t going to know until you get there. If you are introverted, it might be time to start thinking of some ways to say that so that people aren’t offended if you don’t want to socialise with them at lunch. Most people get that a book and/or earbuds means “please leave me alone” but they may not understand why you do that every day.

      1. AnotherFed*

        Also consider that while you’re new, your new coworkers may feel like they are expected to take you to lunch and invite you to join them. Even if they are introverts, too, many places would find it incredibly rude of them to not make sure they went to lunch with you and showed you around, even if that isn’t what they normally do for lunch. So, prep the introvert excuses, but let them have a few days before you pull them out!

  140. YandO*

    I just got an email inviting me to a face to face interview in another city (have to fly). They do not acknowledge in any way that I am an out of state candidate.

    Do I bring it up or just book flights? It’s a nonprofit, so I was not really expecting them to pay for my flights….but I thought they would at least acknowledge that I need to book flights, take days off work, etc.

    How does this usually work?

    Marianna

    2. Dang*

      I would just ask if travel reimbursement is a possibility. If they say no and you’re still willing to book the flights/take on the expense yourself, then let them know at that point. But I’d definitely at least try.

    3. YandO*

      one more thing: we have not had phone or skype interview yet. They just asked for a written questionnaire and now decided to interview me face to face.

      Is it reasonable to ask for skype interview first?

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        If buying a plane ticket/all the travel expenses would be a financial hardship for you, I say it can’t hurt to ask. I’m sure someone here probably has a better way of phrasing it but I would think if you e-mailed them asking for a phone interview because you are out of their state, that would at least get the conversation started. Maybe they do reimburse for interviewees’ travel and would bring it up then.

    1. So Very Anonymous*

      It is going to be interesting to see how the conversation goes re Sweet Briar’s faculty — all of those professors have just lost their jobs in the midst of a godawful market. And, by March, typically the academic job market for the upcoming fall semester is winding down. It’s the stuff of nightmares for academics.

      My brother-in-law was downsized from a full-time community college teaching job to part-time adjuncting several years ago. He is still struggling with figuring what to do next; currently teaching courses as many courses as he can and working part-time in a library, trying hard to find a full-time job doing… something.

      1. Vixen2013*

        SBC alum here- I know of a handful of current professors who are seeking a career change. One faculty friend even solicited jobs on Facebook. It is incredibly depressing to see these seasoned, incredibly impressive scholars scrambling to get a new job with months’ notice. Just terrible.

        1. So Very Anonymous*

          Vixen2013, this has got to be a hard thing for you on so many levels! Career changing away from academia is a hard thing in itself (been there, still dealing with it), but this… I just can’t imagine what this is like for any of you all experiencing this. Sweet Briar seems like the kind of place that would be a teacher’s dream — good students, beautiful location. Just so very sad. The history of the place makes it sadder, too (my research interest is in the history of women’s/girls’ education, so, extra sad). Best to you —

    2. BRR*

      First I’d like to say I think it’s terrible how Universities hire adjuncts when they should be hiring full-time professors. Some classes should be taught by outsiders like the management class I took with a professor who had only ever taught (it was like remedial AAM but with some bad information) but there are many subjects that have no reason to use adjuncts.

      That being said I have an unpopular opinion that nobody is forcing them to take these jobs. I make the strong assumption that if you have the skills and capacity to earn a masters or doctorate that you are capable of succeeding in other professions. They choose to go down this path because of their dream job of tenured professor and in the process have glutted the market. But they’re not forced to become adjuncts and they’re not forced to stay.

      Disclaimer that this obviously avoids many other issues that are currently going on in higher education.

  142. Optimistic Red Velvet Walrus*

    Happy Friday, everyone! Delurking today because something popped up this week.

    Some background: I’ve been job hunting for the past 3 months after my employer retired, and I’ve been receiving weekly unemployment benefits. To get unemployment, I apply for a minimum of 2 jobs every week. I’m seeking a full time position, and am not very particular where as long as it is a good fit for the company and for me (I have taken jobs in the past that were not a good fit, and they were miserable). Perhaps I’m not looking at the right industries or job boards, but some weeks have been less encouraging than others, and I end up throwing in an online application for part time retail work (I have no experience in retail or sales, by the way). Most of those companies do not contact me, so I don’t expect to hear back from them, and I usually don’t.

    … until this week, when I was contacted by a recruiter for a company with a part time position I’d applied for in a fit of frustration. After speaking with me, she said she wanted to put me forward for an in-person interview. I said that would be okay, but after having a day to think about it, I’m having doubts about the wage, which is minimum wage and half of what I made at my last job. To a lesser degree, I’m also concerned about how the position would fit in with the rest of my job history, as it is unrelated to anything I’ve ever done. I’m afraid taking this on might make me look desperate to a future potential employer, and I don’t want to waste this company’s time.

    However, I don’t know if I should address those doubts with the recruiter or interviewers, and here’s why: My unemployment benefits could be stopped if I refuse a work offer. I have not yet been scheduled for a formal interview, so there is no pending job offer, but I don’t know how to say I don’t want this job without potentially jeopardizing my situation.

    AAM readers, I’ve seen what great advice you give. Please advise me and/or feel free to tell me if I’m getting ahead of myself/need to suck it up. What should I do? Thanks in advance! I’ve been a little sick this week, too, so I haven’t been thinking as clearly as usual.

    P.S. Observation: Unemployment is scarier now after having had a FT job with benefits — the last time I was unemployed, I was young enough to be on my parents’ health insurance. Now, not so much …

    1. LMW*

      I could be wrong, but I think if the offer is below a certain percentage of what you previously made, you can turn it down and still qualify for unemployment and in some cases you can still get a percentage of unemployment to make up for the fact that you are underemployed. I’d look into the details offered by your unemployment office. (And I’m sure there are commenters who know more about this than me!)

      1. Natalie*

        Definitely check out the specific rules of your state!

        I think in my state you can also decline an offer if it’s wildly outside of your field. So I’m a bookkeeper, and if someone offered me a job shampooing dogs I’d be able to decline without losing my benefits.

        Also, we’re allowed to work as Lon as it’s part time (under 32 hours a week, IIRC). 50% of anything you make is deducted from your unemployment, but it also increases the length of time you can collect checks.

        1. Steve G*

          I didn’t know such rules existed. I do think Optimistic Red Velvet Walrus needs to decline this interview.

          Minimum wage? Really? I remember earning around there…there is a big difference between $7 and $12, or whatever the difference. You simply can’t afford to do the $7.

  143. S*

    So, potentially awkward situation. I applied for a job on a whim in my current city, but there have been family issues lately (post-application) and I’m seriously considering a move back to my hometown 6 hours away once my lease is up at the end of May. Nothing has been decided yet, but it’s an option on the table.

    However, I’ve progressed to final-round interviews and reference checks with this application, which is great and I’m excited and I feel like this role fits in well with my 5-year plan, but I’m very torn between staying in my current city and moving back home, and whether or not I get this job would probably have no impact on my final decision. As in, even if I got an offer, I may have to return home, and this job would not be enough to keep me in this city. I’m a year out of college, so more doors are opening up for me by virtue of simply having a year’s experience over the newest recent grads (I have a phone screen with a hometown organization next week), but I had such a difficult time job-searching the first time around that I’m terrified of turning down an offer.

    Any advice or story-sharing would be great; I just wanted to get it off my chest. My friends here are biased because they want me to stay, my family/friends back home would like me to return, and my current job would be very confused as to why I would turn down an offer I was previously enthusiastic about, so I can’t seem to get good advice anywhere!

    1. Dynamic Beige*

      I think the only thing you can do is work on sorting out whether or not you’re definitely going to return home in a couple of months. If this job you applied for will have no bearing on that decision, then it’s really secondary. If by some chance you do get offered the job (which is not guaranteed, final round they could choose someone else), then your only choice of action will be to politely refuse with a vague explanation that some family issues popped up during the process that mean you are unable to accept the position. If you are absolutely certain that this job will not stop you from moving back home, then you can always choose to withdraw now before your final interview. If you had accepted another job somewhere else, you would inform them and withdraw yourself from consideration, as would anyone so these things happen. I’m sure it wouldn’t be the first time this company encountered someone who needed to drop out of the process.

    2. Graciosa*

      Can you add a little more information? You note that you may “have to” return home – are you waiting for more information or some sort of development?

      It matters whether or not you have all the relevant information yet.

      1. S*

        Waiting for some sort of development. I have a job contract and a lease that runs until the end of May. I had started this job search assuming that I would stay in my current city, but with the new development, it’s becoming increasingly unlikely and I’ve re-oriented my search to focus on my hometown/surrounding area for now.

        1. Graciosa*

          If you don’t have all the information yet, you can legitimately continue in the hiring process in your current city. If the development results in your not being able to take the job (or continue working) because of this issue, you say so and make the proper apologies (on the job, you give as much notice and transition help as you can). Life happens, and decent employers understand that.

          If you had all the information and knew with a fair amount of certainty that you couldn’t stay with the employer for a decent length of time (a few years), it would reflect badly on you not to speak up, but that’s not the case yet.

          Good luck.

  144. Anonymous for this*

    Can anyone offer some strategies about how not to become the person who overfunctions when others underfunction, without feeling like you’re turning into one of the underfunctioners? My office is split between a whole bunch of underfunctioners and a handful of us who either end up overfunctioning as a result or feel pressured to. I’m trying to resist, but I’m by nature a high performer, my closest friend in the office is also a high performer and a chronic overfunctioner (and doesn’t see that as a problem, even though it’s affecting her health), and I’m starting to feel like a loser/bad sport in contrast for struggling with feeling like I’m being expected to do others’ work for them because they’re just phoning it in (has to do with client overlap). If there were more of a “team” feeling and the work really was being shared, it would be different, but people barely talk to each other and things pop up undone. I try hard not to push things off onto other people, but trying to resist overfunctioning makes me feel like I am.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd*

      Eh, I’m probably the wrong person to answer this but I will anyway.

      I can only be who I am. Whenever I have been in a position (when younger) where I believe the right thing to do was dial back or let things go because of whatever reason, it only made me miserable.

      Is that over functioning or just functioning the way I function?

      Limiting the hours you work makes sense. “I will only work XX hours per week and whatever doesn’t get done, doesn’t get done, but I’ll function to *my* highest ability during that time” <<< is what I'd do.

      The bigger problem, you have to address with management or find yourself a place to work with a much better functioning team.

      1. Anonymous for this*

        Actually, you got it, exactly, so thanks for the input! Yes, it’s making me miserable to be wanting to be my usual high-functioning self in a “no high functioning goes unpunished” environment. I think there’s also an issue here that my overfunctioning colleague is guilting me a little for trying to set boundaries while she keeps taking on more and more work.

        I’ve been trying to find something better for awhile now (job market is flat in my field), and in the last six months I’ve been working on some projects where I can perform well to my heart’s content. That’s been paying off lately, and the difference is so clear. Last week I had a phone interview or a job that would involve much more of that kind of work, so maybe my current environment is just really rankling me while I’m in this waiting period. Needing to think some more, though, about how to suss out these issues in an interview.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Since you’re doing a good job, choose yourself first and screw the rest of them. Do what makes you least miserable/happiest.

          The reason I tagged myself as probably not the best person to answer, I’m an over doer and I don’t have many time boundaries and I like it that way. If someone is asking how to dial back, I’m not the resource.

          However even I can see that this:

          I think there’s also an issue here that my overfunctioning colleague is guilting me a little for trying to set boundaries while she keeps taking on more and more work.

          is a trap.

          Maybe you can talk to her? She’s probably aware that it is you and she and perhaps one or two other people who are keeping the place afloat. Maybe if you talk to her and explain your boundaries she might decide to make some of her own, which it sounds like she needs.

          1. So Very Anonymous*

            I’m from academia originally, so I totally understand not setting time boundaries. I’ve been described as being like a border collie. The boundaries here are more about managing client expectations, which is a super loaded thing in my field — a fair amount of pressure to be totally reactive with clients and avoid saying no at all costs, rather than proactively setting limits when it’s appropriate (which is my preference).

            And yep, thinking about this yesterday in response to your comment, I do think maybe I need to find a way to talk to my colleague. She is sliding more into that “we can’t say no” mentality than I am, and I feel like she’s becoming more critical of me lately for not doing that as much. She’s in a cycle where she’s taking on too much, gets angry and has an outburst, then takes on more work to compensate for the outburst, gets angry, and so on. I’m not sure she’d actually listen to me, but I’ve wanted to say something to her about seeing her in this cycle for awhile, so maybe I need to draft a script.

            Appreciate your input — I always appreciate your comments.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              It does not have to a choice between underachiever and hyper achiever.

              I think your best bet with her is to talk about her health. Talk about how anger can chew up good health in a hurry.

              For you, I would work on “What is my own definition of doing my best?” Your current definitions are banked off of the people around you. Skip that. What do you think is the best you can do a day? When do you go home the most proud of yourself? Using this type of thinking you do not get caught up in thinking about shrinking down to underachiever and you do not get caught up in following Ms Hyper. I think that we have to define professional selves. And this is something I think might help you here. I know I have changed/refined my definition of my professional self a few times over the years.

              A helpful thing I learned in recent years, it is unethical to give so much of yourself at work that you cannot function when you get home. Why. It cheats the people around you out of having a real relationship with you. They are dealing with some exhausted person that can barely function.
              So there is a starting point. What does it take for you to go home and have enough energy to function after work?

  145. Jessica*

    I just found out I am going to have a video interview next week! Any special prep tips I need to know about? It’s going to be at night due to time differences between international offices. This would be the third round.

  146. So Very Anonymous*

    If it’s a Skype interview, practice with a friend, who can help you figure out where to sit, what level the screen needs to be at, how you look onscreen, how whatever is behind you looks, etc. I find Skype interviews weird because in order to look like you’re looking at the people you’re talking to, you have to look away from them and at the computer’s camera — if you look directly at them, you will look like you’re looking away from them. A trial run with a friend can also help you troubleshoot technical issues (whoops, I had the sound turned down, that kind of thing).

  147. Somebody*

    I work at a fairly small non-profit and we got a new leader recently. One of his goals has been to improve employee morale after several years of constant change. The problem? Morale isn’t improving – it’s actually tanked since he came on board and literally half the staff here are looking for new jobs. Most of the issues have to do with extremely long hours (we’ve been told we HAVE to work overtime on a daily basis) with no extra compensation, micromanagement and an extremely disorganized work environment. I feel bad because I really believe he’s working hard and that his heart is in the right place. Several of us have spoken to HR and I’m not sure what has been done. Frankly, we can’t continue to operate like this and I think someone needs to talk to him. The most likely candidates are his two “second in commands” but most of the complaining is about them. Any advice? I should mention that by “new leader” I mean “CEO” so there’s nobody above him except the Board of Directors.

    1. Graciosa*

      This is a little odd in light of another thread today, but have you considered an employee survey? It might not be difficult to suggest that the new CEO may want metrics and information to assist him in achieving one of his goals.

      Of course, (you explain) the only way to get really useful information is to make sure that the employees know that the feedback is truly anonymous – perhaps by hiring a very reputable third party to administer the survey and making their contract / instructions available to the staff. You have to be careful with this kind of an idea as a survey that is *not* anonymous in the environment you describe would be the last straw.

      You would encourage the CEO to make the (aggregated) results public, and also announce what plans he has to correct the identified problems (not all at once, but a top few) with timelines. This can work if people who gamble on providing real feedback see results from that in the form of tangible improvements – but this is a very slow process to win back employee trust over time. At this point, most people won’t stick around long enough to see those results, but it can still be a valuable part of a management process and action from the CEO will build his credibility.

      I led with the survey / metrics option because it’s fairly neutral and defensible. Telling the CEO directly that the problem is his two SICs is not an easy choice. In order to do anything with the information, he pretty much *has* to discuss this with them and they *are* going to find out the source. I really hesitate to suggest this if you need your job and don’t have another one lined up – it’s a huge risk.

      Possibly a good topic for an exit interview (even an informal one) if you are willing to take the chance on the CEO’s character.

      Good luck.

      1. Steve G*

        Survey would help back up the OP’s claim, but the claim is a pretty simple. I’m not sure why companies do this, long term. Past job was like this and I am glad I’m out. If a business is making a profit, hire people to handle the work so everyone can work normal hours. If it is not making a profit, work to increase sales, or do something to make the situation as temporary as possible. Line-staff should never have to work 50-60 hour weeks unless it is crunch time or they are doing more than a regular employee to build a name for themselves.

  148. EG*

    Let’s talk organization with emails and tasks when overwhelmed on a daily basis with no end in sight. I’m struggling to balance a hectic accounting job with partially taking back the HR role until a replacement is found (I used to handle the HR/recruiting for this 70 person company). However, I’m finding it very hard to keep up with every task that crosses my desk or email. I do use flags and reminders in Outlook but too often tasks come in verbally and too quickly for me to get them all on Outlook’s calendar. Do I need to force myself to make a reminder on each item?
    Also…How do you handle reporting to multiple bosses temporarily (I have one for Acct duties and the President for HR duties)? I’m trying really hard to avoid burnout but this is pushing my limits. I don’t have anyone to delegate most tasks to, and prioritizing is hard when several items need to be done ASAP. Not sure I’ve been clearly expressing this frustration to either manager, but it’s quickly reaching that point if the HR duties don’t move elsewhere.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Get a notebook. Clear a small space on your desk for this notebook. Write every verbal request in there with stars next to urgent ones. Cross them off as you do them. Put the date on the page as soon as you get in each morning.

      After a couple days, try and set a meeting with both managers. Bring your notebook and a print of your outlook task list. Show them this stuff, explain that such and such task takes x time and needs to be done urgently and comes up do many times a day.

      Then ask how you should prioritize.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        I like the notebook idea, but I’d say at the very least write down all the requests you get and transfer them to your regular to-do list when you can. Capture first, then organize.

    2. C Average*

      I get a lot of drive-bys, too. I keep a Notepad doc open on my desktop all day and jot these on it as they come in, making sure I note the time, the person making the request, and the basics of the request.

      As I get time, I either complete them or make some kind of plan for completing them, deleting them as I deal with them.

      At the end of the day, I make sure the doc is blank. If it’s blank, I’ve dealt with all the incoming.

      I know it’s pretty low-tech, but it works for me.

    3. AnotherFed*

      I have this problem, and frequently get the drive-bys in meetings, as everyone’s packing up and leaving a meeting, as someone runs into me in the hall, or buried in the end of a 3 paragraph email. I keep a notebook page dedicated to writing down these drive-by requests so that I have them, and even if someone’s thing is urgent, I give them a heads up when they give it to me if I don’t think I can make their deadline.

      It sounds like at least part of your problem might be the way people are communicating tasks to you, even via email. If the people with these requests understand that you’re swamped and are willing to help, see if you can get them to write their emails with subject lines built like this “Project – Problem/Question – Due Date” and then stick any specifics in the body of the email.

      When I have brand new hires who can’t seem to ask a useful question to save their project, I refer them to a guide on how to ask useful questions. It’s tailored toward software/IT/engineer types, but might still be useful to you. http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

      1. C Average*

        My team used to get long, incoherent, vague requests from our leadership, like a two-week-long email thread forwarded with “FYI–knowledge base team, please address” at the top and no additional context. We’d spend days trying to figure out what exactly the ask was.

        We finally created a Google form with required fields and have asked the worst offenders to use this process. (We’re more flexible with people who know how to construct an actionable request.) It’s been a godsend. There was some initial griping, but we held firm (with our manager’s full backing) and it’s now established process. Getting requests in a standardized format makes us way, way more efficient, and it enables new people on the leadership team to know exactly what we need when we create new content. (For example, there’s a field asking to which geographies a request applies. Before we implemented this form, most people thought in very U.S.-centric terms when they made requests. Now they understand that our audience is global and we have to operate with that mindset.)

        1. AnotherFed*

          Ugh! I hate the vague email that’s been forwarded 17 times! One of these days, I won’t be able to hold in the ‘so what?’ when I get it. Fortunately, my direct leadership is pretty good about not doing that if they expect an actual response – the problem is the newer folks, who only have 1 or 2 major tasks, so don’t even realize that I have no idea what event they mean by ‘the test’ or what document is ‘the report’ and haven’t learned to use a question mark!

  149. YupYup*

    Reposting not as a reply to someone else’s comment:

    How do you professionally tell someone “I’m not going to do your job for you?” Because literally saying “I’m not going to do your job for you, the resources you need for this task are [here]” is apparently not the correct method.

    I feel snarky, but I’m seriously stuck.

    1. fposte*

      Depends how it comes up and who it comes up from. “Sorry, can’t get to that, good luck with it though!” can cover a lot; “I’d need that to be cleared with my boss before I could take it on” is another possibility.

      1. YupYup*

        No, it’s more like this:
        me: Please distribute this memo to all staff at all locations.
        Her: Please give me a list of all the staff and which location their memos should go to (some staff work at multiple locations)
        Me: …….

        If she had said, “does it matter whether Bob’s memo goes to the Main Street or the South Ave office,” or “I’ve never done a distribution to the other offices, how do you normally handle the multiple locations” I can deal with that. I am MORE than happy to give guidance to help someone do their job better or more efficiently. But if you’re not going to make an effort, why should I?

        1. ism*

          It sounds to me like her words are about *how* to do the job you have asked, not asking you to do it for her. She’s requesting information she needs (or believes she needs) to complete the task. It’s possibly not the best way to word such a request from her manager, but I think that’s all it was: soliciting info she feels will help her do the job to best satisfy you. For example, maybe she thinks she should cover all her bases and send a copy to every desk at every location. But then she remembers that the company has a green mission and really frowns on paper-wasters. Not sure which direction to go, she asks you for more direction. Shrug. That’s the way I see it; but what I’m not clear on from your question is why you feel her statement means she doesn’t want to perform the task.

        2. fposte*

          Do you manage her, or is she a co-worker? I’m guessing the latter–in which case you say “That’s part of the distribution task rather than something I provide you with–you can find them on the company directory. Please confirm with me when they go out–it should be by close of day today.”

          If you manage her, of course, you need to have a fuller conversation about your need for her to work more independently.

        3. AnotherFed*

          Eh, that sounds pretty typical for the average admin. I agree, a good admin would be all over it and just come back with any specific questions, like “I don’t recognize this person and they aren’t in the directory. Is this a typo, or are they new?” However, if she is just mediocre, you might just have to hand over a list of all staff at all locations and then make her responsible for making updates as needed.

  150. Lizzie*

    I had TWO people tell me yesterday that they think I’m doing a great job. It’s so nice to hear that using actual words, and from people I really respect! I do feel like I’m good at my job (been there since August), but I don’t really hear it much. (Mostly I know that TPTB think I’m doing well because they keep giving me new projects without the level of oversight that would be typical for my position – they know that I know what I’m doing, and that I’m someone who consistently monitors the effectiveness of my own work and who is flexible enough to adjust as needed.)

  151. PuppyPetter*

    A tangent to the email peeves…
    The floor I am on has 2 office that are connected by a wall & a door. I have shared this space with a variety of people over 10 years and every single one of them talk to me while they are sitting at their desk & I am sitting at mine. We cannot see each other. I work with music/radio/noise coming from my computer and when I zone in on something, I tune everything out.
    Person talking to me from other room gets annoyed that I haven’t answered and if I say I can’t hear them, or didn’t realize they were talking to me, they just continue on (since now they have my attention).
    Whenever _I_ need to talk to the other office., I get up and go over and speak with them. Somehow though, no one extends that courtesy to me; I wind up having to go to them.
    raised in a household of “if you want to talk with me, YOU need to come to me!”, this yelling room to room and demanding I come to the person requesting my help instead of vice versa, really drives me nuts!

      1. ism*

        I’ve had some moderate success with pretending to stay zoned-out deep in some work when someone calls to me from across the room. They give up the shouting and walk to my desk and talk to my face, and we joke around that sometimes I’m really in the zone focused on something important (which I see as an asset, and not actually humorous). I still have to be careful, though, depending on who is talking to me.

        1. fposte*

          Sure, but in general people are going to have the best success with asking for what they want, and there’s no good reason not to in this case.

    3. this will never end 'cause i want more*

      I think you should just be upfront: “I can’t hear you well / understand you when you try to talk to me from your office, and I don’t like shouting. So if you want to talk to me, just come to my office.”

      (I hate the whole inter-office talking thing, too. A lot)

    4. PuppyPetter*

      Alas, no matter how many times I ask them to come to my office or even buzz my desk becasue I can’t hear them, they forget & do it all teh time!
      I have problems that people like to stand at the top of the stairs and shout down at me (heaven forbid they actually walk down the stairs!)

  152. Temporarily Anonymous*

    How do you continue to act professional when your relationship with your employer has degraded to the point where you’re completely checked out and are meeting with employment lawyers? Especially when your immediate supervisor seems to not realise just how pissed off you are?

    1. Graciosa*

      Unfortunately, this is a bit of a “just do it” situation. You can either preserve your reputation (and possible witness testimony if this is headed in that direction) by always behaving professionally, or you can throw it all away for the momentary satisfaction of having a temper tantrum.

      The latter is understandable when you really want to scream at the *** supervisor who is utterly clueless about how much (hopefully righteous) anger you’re controlling, but it really won’t help you in the long run.

      What may help in the short term is picturing the moment when he finally gets the message – not from you, but from the process server or administrative law judge or whoever – while you look on, smug in the knowledge that you were not only vindicated but also behaved perfectly the whole time.

    2. AnotherFed*

      What Graciosa said – make sure your behavior is beyond reproach. You want them to clearly look like the crazy ones, so you can’t afford anything that might call that into question. Unfortunately, a temper tantrum, anything that even smells like a threat or workplace violence, or even a coworker overhearing a stream of muttered curse words can hurt your case.

  153. Anx*

    I am wondering if I should try to let go of my job history altogether during my next job search.

    I am completing my school program in May (not applying to graduate to remain eligible for internships, etc) and will be looking for employment. I am in a AS program that is directly related to my BS degree (earned in 2008). Between graduation of my past program and enrollment in my current, I have have had one full-time job in food service for less than a year and an even shorter part-time job. I was laid-off from both; at least, I was never talked to about there being a fit or performance issue. I also went to school for 1 summer and was licensed for a career I never started (never found an opening).

    I feel like that’s really, really unattractive in a candidate. I did nothing else noteworthy in those 5 years.

    Before graduation (the first time) I worked several part-time jobs, two of them for 3 years. So I kind of want to keep that on my resume. I feel like I learned a lot at those jobs, but I don’t think they really matter to employers. They are typical college student jobs and I don’t think they would count toward the years of experience required for any sort of job (except in student services).

    So while I learned a lot in the past 10 years, I didn’t learn nearly as much as I wanted to. I am wondering if I should just apply with a very, very short resume focusing on what I’ve done in the past year at school and in my current job. That would eliminate my huge employment gap.

    Is this unethical? Could leaving off my B.S. look like I’m padding my resume? Or is it simply tailoring my resume for a position.

    Is this pointless, since they will know my age (29) from my high school graduation date and that I couldn’t have just graduated from high school?

    Would leaving this out raise more flags than leaving it in with?

    Complicating the matter is that by including the information, I feel like a loser who keeps playing up my experiences that are more than 5 years old. Some are about 10 years old and soon to ‘expire’ from resume relevance anyway. I feel like I’m in a weird situation, though, since the experiences I value most are ones that I had more than 5 years ago and until this year I’ve been languishing in underemployment hell.

    I don’t think I’d leave this off in any jobs that allow a cover letter or that mandate you list every job you’ve ever had.

    1. BRR*

      I’m very tired at the moment so I may have missed the answer but why would you leave off your bachelors?

      1. Anx*

        Two major reasons:

        1) I don’t have much experience in my field. I went to college straight out of high school without working first. So I don’t have the 1-2 years experience to match the most entry-level jobs that seem require a BS. Sometimes I’ll see job postings where the more education you have, the fewer years experience you seem to need, but it’s more common for me to see more entry level jobs that prefer an AS, AA, or high school diploma. I am worried it’s more of a liability than anything else at this point.

        2) I graduated a long time ago. I earned my BS between 2004-2008, and I am considering just focusing on my last two years of experience and ‘starting over’ so to speak. Putting my BS on there would suggest that I graduated HS at least 4 years ago (which is quite true), but I don’t have steady employment in my four year history. Plus, if I start putting the jobs I worked during that time, then I’d feel like I have to put the dates. And then I’d run into the issue of focusing too much on my past life and not more more recent life.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      How would they know your high school graduation date though? High school definitely shouldn’t be on your resume or anything like that. (I might be misunderstanding how they’re finding it out though.)

      1. Anx*

        You know what? I’ve though about this and just realized while many online applications require dates for higher education and jobs that you’ve had, I think I remember some not having dates required for high school.

        I am looking at my HR forms for my last two jobs and both require dates for high school graduation. I graduated in 2004. Neither were automated applications, though.

        (I recognize this is a weird thing to be hung up on, but I want to make the most of my upcoming period of job searching)

        1. Anx*

          Of course those forms would come later. I do anticipate that several companies I will be applying to will have the ATS systems and may require a year for your diploma.

  154. Anx*

    Mini-vent:

    There’s a program I’ve been stalking for a while now. This semester they opened up applications. I’ve been very busy and went to finally start on them and it turns out that the application closes today (I’d been looking for deadlines for weeks).

    Of course spring break starts today so every library in town is closing early and I have service people at the house today.

    Does anyone have any tips for proofreading on a computer screen? I don’t have access to a printer and I have to write and submit a personal statement.

    1. just laura*

      Writer/editor here: read it out loud to yourself. For really high-importance stuff (like a personal statement!) I also cover up the majority of my screen with a piece of paper as I read to prevent my eyes from scanning (and making errors). I then read one line at a time out loud to ensure it sounds good and there aren’t any mistakes. Good luck!

    2. BRR*

      I try and make sure the document isn’t too wide. I have two monitors and one is wide-screen. I always move stuff to my 2nd smaller screen to proof. If I don’t I drift off before I hit the right side of the screen.

  155. BRR*

    Just following up with my mental health issues affecting my work but this one is more of a vent (that’s why I waited so the people with questions could go further up). We got the annual announcements for performance reviews. My interim review was good so I’m going to try and play up the angle of I’ve grown so much during the year but am having a slight relapse now. I just wish it didn’t coincide with my issues, my boss going through extra stress, and that my raise didn’t depend on this due to what’s going on. My medications were adjusted so I’m hoping that I can do something well before my review to restore faith.

  156. RB*

    I need to rant for a bit. I work in a fairly large office – about 500 people in the building, with maybe 75 people on our floor. About two months ago, one of the women on my team started bringing her 6 year old son to the office before school two mornings a week. She’s a single mom, and she has someone else take him the rest of the week, but that person isn’t available two days each week. He’s gotten more confident as time has passed, and is now wandering all over the place, taking things off of people’s desks, walking into meetings, and generally causing distractions. As far as his mother is concerned, she’s there to work, so she puts in her earbuds and focuses on work while he aggravates the rest of us. Our boss sits on the other side of the office, so he wasn’t aware of the problem. On Monday I asked him if anyone had talked to him about this issue, and he said that he had discussed it with my coworker on Saturday when they were both in the office. Tuesday morning, the kid was running full speed all over the office. I finally got fed up and asked him if he could please walk. Then I told my boss that it needed to stop. He told me that it’s been addressed, but my boss is a pushover and my coworker doesn’t respect authority, so I’m not holding my breath. I get it, she’s a single mom and money is tight, but this is an office, not a daycare center.

    1. Rebecca*

      Stand your ground. If he gets hurt, your manager will find out about liability and insurance issues in short order. This happened at my office, too. One of my coworkers has a special needs child, and he got sent home from school and she brought him to the office for the rest of the afternoon. Never, ever again was that allowed. She said “he’s a little busy”. No, he has full blown hyperactivity, and he was a huge distraction. I truly sympathize with her! I could not deal with that on a regular basis. But he did not belong in an office where people were trying to concentrate on working and speaking to customers over the phone.

      1. RB*

        Agreed. I’m also concerned because we have a bunch of new employees starting in the coming weeks. I don’t want them thinking that this is acceptable and they can bring their kids to the office too.

    2. Beezus*

      Yeahhh, kids don’t belong in the workplace.

      My husband insisted on bringing our son to his job on snow days. We had a little marital discord over that…I know how it looks professionally, and I didn’t want that for him, plus it’s boring for our son and just not a good situation for anybody. But Mr. Beezus can be a little tone deaf sometimes and insisted that it was okay because no one had complained about it, and was really uncooperative about helping coordinate anything related to alternate child care. So, I caved. Last week was the 4th snow day of the season, and they happened to bump into the HR director in a hallway on their way in. Long story short, my son isn’t allowed to spend the day at the office anymore, so that’s settled. :)

      I’ve brought my son into the office exactly twice, for less than 15 minutes at a time, both on occasions where I needed to do something very quick after hours. He can sit quietly in a chair for that long, and there are few people there to be distracted, so it’s fine. I’ve worked there for 10 years and in all that time, no one has attempted to bring a child in to the office for the day. I’ve seen a few little ones here and there, but it’s usually either a new parent bringing in a baby to show off briefly, or someone who is technically off for the day being called in for something quick and urgent, and they weren’t able to find an alternative to having the kids in tow.

  157. Must Be Anon for This*

    So frustrated at work. No COLA, no merit increases, fewer paid holidays, higher health insurance costs…you get the picture. I met with my manager and used all the tips gleaned from this site to try to get something, anything, like a few days of working from home a month, or some extra paid time off, and got shot down. My manager can’t understand why I would want to work from home, and flat out told me the company has pay caps, and I’m not going anywhere nor can I expect anything further. But this does not stop her from dumping more work on me when the mood strikes her. Sometimes it feels like I’m being overloaded to the point of total frustration so I’ll just quit, and they can hire someone at entry level wages instead. Oh, and as a bonus, no posting any complaints or talking about this on social media. Them’s firin’ words.

    1. Ineloquent*

      I’m pretty sure they can’t legally fire you in the US for discussing working conditions with coworkers, even on social media. But regardless, it sounds like you need to try to move on. If you think you deserve more for your work, find another company that agrees with you.

  158. Lulubell*

    Just wanted to note that I had to watch a “harassment in the workplace” video today and take the corresponding quiz and I knew like 80% of the answers already just from reading AAM. :)

  159. Stargazer*

    I just wanted to say that nine years ago today was the first day of my first job with my current company (and its affiliates)…I have to smile when I remember the starry-eyed 22-year-old I once was.

  160. Elizabeth West*

    Said this upthread, but I got the info from IT about working while abroad. Sounds like it will be no big deal; I’m happy I can do that. There’s a lot of stuff that’s just easier for me to do, and I really don’t want to dump it on my bosses (who would be the ones doing most of it) and my team (who would do the rest). Especially since they took over for me last time and it was a much longer trip.

    I didn’t intend to go back so soon, but this event came up unexpectedly, and I need to do some research for Secret Book. Hopefully some of that will include talking to Facebook peeps about London in the 1960s and 1970s as we stuff our gobs with pie and mash. I’ve been told by said peeps that parsley liquor is very tasty. :)

    http://mad-wednesday.blogspot.com/2012/09/london-goddards-at-greenwich.html

    1. AVP*

      speaking of 1960’s London..have you seen Blow Up?! Can you see it so we can discuss in depth?

  161. Shell*

    Late to the party, but this just occurred to me.

    I have what I would call a quippy sense of humour (once I get comfortable with people, that is). A little self-deprecating, shoot-the-breeze, trade easy jibes kind of humour. For example, when our IT guy was talking about dumb ways people get computer viruses, I said something along the lines of “one of my old bosses used to threaten to guillotine offenders through the internet if they caught a virus. You could try that threat :)”. Or when a guy accidentally kicked my metal desk as he approached and scared me, I grinned and said “okay, just tell me what you want, please don’t hurt me” (of course, he knew I was joking and we had a chuckle). In my limited work experience, this kind of shoot-the-breeze humour is much more common among men than women. I’ve seen it used very successfully in management (to set new people at ease) and sales (to build camaraderie); I’m neither, but I do find it helps to break the ice. I’m like this among my friends too.

    That said, does this kind of humour hurt women professionally? Note that my work is absolutely not affected by what I say to coworkers. I do my job well, communicate clearly to superiors and peers, and my written correspondence is absolutely professional. This is just a conversational demeanor for daily conversation (and doesn’t even apply for more formal conversations, like, say, a group meeting or something). But workplace dynamics are influenced by culture and unsaid expectations, and I’m curious if there’s a gender divide for something like this.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Ha, well, if it does, I would have been guillotined a long time ago.

      Arguably, I’d say that my sharp, sometimes black, humor has always helped me. I agree that, at least in the time I was coming up, my humor style was more gender normative to men then women, and if that helped me avoid being stuck with a pink collar, all the better.

      I’ve never behaved in a gender expected fashion, not with intention just in line with “being myself”. I think it has only helped, and screw the people who had issues with it because I didn’t pay attention to them.

      p.s. when you have a black sense of humor, you’re going to cross the line at some point in the wrong situation, not a thing to do with gender and everything to do with “doh, time and place!”

    2. jamlady*

      There’s very little that offends me as far as shoot-the-breeze kind of jokes go, but I guess some people (not just women) could be more sensitive. Just steer clear of jokes that are crude or any with prejudice. I don’t really see the chair joke offending anyone. I have a previous coworker who sounds kind of like you and he was soooo egg-shelly when I first got to the office. He would blurt out the joke and then immediately follow with an “no I’m just messing with you!” That bothered me more haha but he was super easy to talk to and approachable that I felt like if he DID cross a line, I could easily and professionally bring it to his attention and he would totally understand and we’d be fine. Just be that guy. Don’t worry about jokes like the chair one. Just keep it appropriate and keep yourself approachable (just in case). The fact that you’re so worried about it makes me think it won’t be a terrible issue!

      1. Beezus*

        I have a pretty open sense of humor and I can’t remember the last time someone said something offensive enough to upset me. However, if you feel the need to script a follow-up apology into your joke…that means you considered it a strong possibility I might be offended, and decided to tell the joke anyway. I find that annoying and inconsiderate.

        1. jamlady*

          Yeah I told him to stop doing that haha for him, it was more like he said it and immediately went “uh oh” in his head and backtracked. And I was like dude, I’m fine. lol

    3. Graciosa*

      One of my mental tests is whether you could and would make a remark to *any* woman and *any* man. Neither of the examples you used is likely to cause offense to the President or your mother, so don’t worry about it.

      Where you have to watch this is when you witness a mishap that’s going to send your quip-happy mind to body parts (a swinging door that hits someone’s well-padded rear, a trip that causes someone to land straddling something hard). There are lots of comments a person could make, but you need to edit some of these in these rarely-occurring situations. If you can do that, you’ll be fine.

    4. safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils*

      I think you’re correct that men are more likely to make jokes than women (I don’t know why). But I’ve always been totally okay with that.

      The only issue I’ve encountered (and not often) is a double-standard, where they make a joke and it’s a laugh. But if I make a similar joke – I’m way out of line.

      I confess I find it strange when women use vulgar language. I once worked with a charming lady from Australia – seriously, she was incredibly nice – who would nonetheless unselfconsciously drop _-bombs into casual work conversation. I wasn’t offended – it was just a little odd.

      1. jamlady*

        I don’t know any women who DON’T use vulgar language haha

        But I do know plenty who don’t use it in their workplace, accepted or not, and it’s likely because of the culture you described here. Not that I walk around the office yelling the F word, but when I’m in the field, it’s flying around like any other word from everyone.

        Also, in my experience, it’s not always acceptable for women to joke around with men in a totally platonic and whatever manner. Not saying it means anything when women do, but it’s common seen as being more than it is. I think it’s one of those cultural things, like bad language, that women just steer clear of in professional settings.

        I think there’s a lot of shared gender behaviors that men may not see from women in the context of a workplace. And likely the other way around. Ah culture.

  162. Gingerbread*

    A coworker quit and will have his last day at work in about three weeks. In the meantime, he will be training me to do his job as an event manager. I will be taking on his duties in addition to my own job.

    How do I negotiate a raise with my boss? “Event manager” is pretty broad so I don’t even know where to start looking for salary information. I’m a recent grad and was shut down when trying to negotiate my starting salary since my boss was “taking a chance” on me, so I’m nervous I’ll be shut down again.

    1. AnotherFed*

      How long have you been at your company? It sounds like it might have been only a few months. Right now, that means you’re still a bit of an unknown quantity to them, especially taking on the event manager work – that wasn’t what they hired you for, so you might just be their best option for ensuring continuity.

      Without much history with this company or much post-college work history, you don’t have a lot to stand on for why they should pay you more. My suggestion would be to not press the raise issue until you’ve been there longer and built up a good track record of performance, including the event manager duties. If it turns out to be a lot more work than you can handle, proactively talk to your supervisor about getting more help or prioritizing what doesn’t get done.

      Once you have that good track record (and have been there at least a year, and have 3-6 months with the new event manager job), point to the additional duties you have taken on, your successes at all of your work, and things you have done to improve processes and make the work faster, higher quality, lower cost, etc., and use that to justify why they should pay you more.

      2. Gingerbread*

        I will wait six more months and see how I do with my new responsibilities. Thank you!

  163. Ruffingit*

    So I’ve vented several times here before about the general WTFuckery of my office and what a jerk my boss is. Here recently, I’ve realized that my boss is employing the strategy of ignoring me, which I know is something of a bullying tactic. Not unusual for him. Here’s the thing though – I’m grateful he ignores me!! It’s a friggen blessing after all I’ve had to deal with concerning him. The only time he speaks to me is to tell me something I need to do more of, better, etc. and even that is like one sentence long. I just say “OK” and move on – no arguments about why he’s wrong, etc. I just don’t care. I also don’t go out of my way to try and make conversation with him or make eye contact even. For the last two months at least, he won’t even make eye contact with me. He jokes around and has a great old time with my co-worker, who he has an inappropriate office relationship with (not talking sex, just no boundaries that should be there between boss and subordinate), but when it comes to me, he treats me with barely disguised disdain.

    It occurred to me today that I need to do what he does. No eye contact unless necessary, no social niceties. And let me be clear that this isn’t revenge or my being bitter. It’s just what works to keep things as drama free as possible for me with this guy. I basically pretend he’s not there unless I have to interact and even then I keep it short. Thankfully, I do not have to interact with him most of the time. It’s just helped a lot to realize that I need to behave as though he’s not there because it really is the best strategy for not feeling like crap when I go into work every day. Today was the first day in a long time that I felt good about going into work.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      It’s tough when you have a very tall five year old for a boss.
      He’s really made a dumb move on this one. Sometime he will really need to talk to you about a matter and it will dawn on him that he can’t without breaking his little rule of not talking to you.

      1. Ruffingit*

        Yeah, it’s a very odd situation, but I saw him do this with another person who was subsequently fired so I know his MO. My job requires a master’s degree and a license from the state. This guy has no degree and no license. He literally cannot do our job and has no idea what it takes to do it. Why he was put in charge is anyone’s guess. Regardless though, he is and I’ve just found that my sanity is better served by doing what I can and basically ignoring the fact that he ignores me. I’m really OK with it for a lot of reasons, one of which is I have no need for his approval or attention. The big mistake the person he did this to before made was wanting his approval and his attention. I don’t care if I get either. I honestly think it bothers my boss to know that he can’t really mess with me because no matter what he does, it just doesn’t get to me the way it did the other woman who was here.

        I think he realized this when I told him several months ago to please stop threatening me with my job (he was doing that to all of us). I told him if he’s going to fire me then do so, but continuous threats are not appropriate or helpful. That seemed to make an impact of some sort since he stopped doing it after that, but I think it also let him know that he’s got no power over me. I don’t care if he fires me. I do my job and I do it well. If that isn’t enough for him, he can fire me and I’ll collect unemployment and move on. So basically he tries to be a bully and a jerk to get under my skin because he knows he otherwise has no power over me. That’s my theory anyway. Here lately, I’ve just been so inundated with outside concerns in my life – friends who are going through a rough time and need my support as well as a parent who is in the hospital – I just can’t be bothered to participate mentally or otherwise in petty games at work.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The chapters of our lives. Something bosses fail to anticipate. They think they can create big drama and we will cave. They have no clue what REAL problems look like. Their synthetic drama is small potatoes compared to real life problems. They look so foolish, don’t they?

          Sadly, with these people we have to tell them to stop. Like your example with the threats. “Boss, cut the crap.” And a lot of times they will. Brings us back to the thing about very tall five year olds. I’m not sure I want to understand this guy. He could just be one of those people that believe angry people work harder. Small mind.
          He does not know what he got himself into when he hired you, though! haha! Bossman, let me clue ya, you cannot take down a person who will not be taken down! ha!

  164. Clueless*

    I got a call this week from a colleague asking if i had been told that she is coming to my department to essentially do my job….needless to say, i was caught completely off guard and went to speak to my boss. my boss claims he had no say on the matter and was also just told someone would be coming. In all of this no one is saying what will actually happen to me. I am not being fired, nor was i ever told i have performance issues, so all in all im just really confused by it all.

    In one of the talks with my boss he claimed that one of the regional bosses (i work for a multinational, reporting to a regional office) felt that i did not pay him any attention when he came to my office, and as such felt he couldn’t work with me.

    I have been at the company for 7 years and feel hurt that no one would tell me this and i had to find out from my replacement that I’m being replaced. Worst of all is that the person is coming next week, but my boss wont tell the rest of the department what is about to happen.

    Im seriously considering looking for a new job, because i don’t know how the next few weeks will pan out.

    Ps. I have been given the option to move back to my old position, but im not interested because i would be moving backwards in my career.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I am not sure how this could have been handled worse. Your boss is a big fat chicken.

      I don’t have any good advice, but I have sympathy. It sounds like looking for another job is a good move.

    2. jamlady*

      Yes, look for a new job with a new company who actually respects employees enough to TALK TO THEM and not blindside them like this. This is ridiculous! You have been there for SEVEN YEARS. They know you and they know how to work with you to better performance (if there was even an issue, but I’m inclined to believe there wasn’t). Your boss is handling this horribly. First of all, he knew it was happening and didn’t fight for you. Second, he knew it was happening and didn’t TELL YOU. Third, it’s happening and now you know and he still hasn’t given you any direction about what to do next!

      Keep your relationship with him nice and professional – and then get the heck out of their ASAP.

    3. Ruffingit*

      Get out ASAP. This is horrible. If you can afford to do it, then don’t take your old position, but if you need to for financial reasons then suck it up, take the old position and send resumes like crazy. The old “easier to find a job when you already have one” thing.

      I’m sorry this happened to you. After 7 years, you deserve better. Shoot, regardless of how long you’ve been somewhere, you deserve better than this.

  165. 2Spooked4AName - Computer Guy*

    I don’t really have a question, just venting really.

    I really don’t want to stay at my current position. I’ve been working here for almost eight months now and my boss has gone from awesome to terrible. She’s really friendly to me and constantly reminds me I’m her favorite worker, but she expects me to do her job. She says the reason I’m not getting a raise is because she can’t go to bat for me, because my team isn’t doing well enough. Maybe I’m just too young to fully understand, but she expects me to tell my coworkers how to do their job. Isn’t that the manager’s job? Shouldn’t she be the one to evaluate and correct their behavior? She says she’s been writing people up and requesting termination from our higher-ups, but nothing ever happens. She also hired two of my closer friends who I hang out with on the weekends, despite me saying it wouldn’t be a good idea.

    I’m incredibly frustrated because I’m stuck in this position where, if I stick it out, I have a very good chance of shifting laterally into our tech department. On the other hand, I’m being told I need to start “Jumping on my coworkers’ asses” for keeping me from getting a raise. She’s been a manager for two years, and knows everyone at work, so despite the fact that she doesn’t know how to do her job, she won’t get fired.

    Feel free to tell me I’m being unreasonable.

    1. AnotherFed*

      It sounds like you’ve got several different issues rolled up into one big pile of frustration. If you can untangle them a little, even just in your own head, that might help you decide how you want to deal with each (and deciding it isn’t worth the battle is an option).

      1. Your boss hired coworkers you explicitly said would not be good for the job. Sucky, and probably has repercussions on your workload, but ultimately, this is not your decision and their performance is not your responsibility.

      2. Your boss wants you to help improve your coworkers’ performance. It’s hard to tell here – this could be way out of line if she’s expecting you to manage performance reviews and other supervisory work, or it could be very normal. In many places, newer employees are assigned to more experienced, high-performing employees to help them learn the job. This can include giving them tasking, correcting/editing their work, and having them support you on a project. In that capacity, it is your responsibility to teach them what is and isn’t an acceptable work product, etiquette, and work ethic at your company, and you can only do that by showing them what they should do and pointing out mistakes so that they can be corrected and learned from.

      3. Your boss says she can’t promote you/give you a raise. Your company may be a different story, but in most places, 8 months is too soon to expect either. At the 12-18 month mark, it’s reasonable to make a case for a raise if you don’t have a normal performance review cycle.

      4. You seem to want to work in the tech department instead of this department. Do you actually want that, or do you just want to escape this boss? Regardless, act professionally, perform well, and see what else is out there – make sure you don’t jump out of the frying pan into the fire. Think about what you can’t stand in this job and what questions you would ask your next manager to find out how similar or dissimilar their style is to this boss.

  166. Shoe Ruiner*

    I scored a casual coffee meeting with a big wig on Monday! I’m excited because I want to be in this person’s good graces. We were just at the same conference so we will have that to talk about. I’m also interested in a job that is rumored to open soon in her area. Any advice on what to talk about when you score a meeting like this?

  167. Kristen*

    I’m not sure if it’s too late to respond to this thread and get responses so I may ask this again next week.

    If you have job searched recently, what techniques have you found to be successful? I know I’ve heard before that you should limit the amount of time you spend doing internet-based job searching, but this is what I usually end up doing. I need to work on my networking skills, but I let my shyness get in the way. Any tips?

    I’ve been looking for a new job for almost two years after graduating in May 2013. I have been on interviews so I am having some success, but I think my lack of experience in my chosen field (accounting) is getting in the way. I was bummed out earlier this week when I got rejected for a job I wanted more than any other position I have interviewed for. I’m afraid that my degree is going to become stale if I don’t find a job soon. I have considered applying for temp or contract positions, but I currently have a very stable, decent paying job (it’s just not in a field I want to be in anymore), so I don’t want to give that up for low-paying, uncertainty.

    1. Lost At Work*

      I have the same problem. I have an associates degree in accounting so looking for like bookkeeping and accounting clerk jobs…but even those that I feel should be “entry level” aren’t and want you to have 3 sometimes 5-10 years experience!

      I’m also shy but I don’t really know the best way to network job wise. Sometimes I wonder if my location is just bad/oversaturated but I don’t know where to move or if that is the answer. I’ve done some temp jobs here and there but they haven’t ever become full-time :( it’s just rough out there it seems.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Did you guys get Alison’s book? If no, please know it will be money well spent.

          1. BRR*

            I also recommend it. Also search for her posts that are something like “I’m getting interviews but no offers”

    2. Anx*

      I’m a 2008 graduate and worry about my stale degree, too.

      To be honest, the only jobs I’ve really been able to get are ones that I’ve done before graduation. And they tend to only be part-time and short-term.

      I read a book called Networking for People Who Hate Networking one weekend and it boosted my confidence a little bit.

  168. Lost At Work*

    How do you know if the kind of job you want is out of reach? Or out of reach in your area? I’ve though maybe I need to relocate but I have no idea WHERE and looking for a job out of town is so hard..most of the time your resume gets thrown away.

    I feel like I’m stuck wanting jobs I don’t have the experience for….where no one will give me a chance to get experience. I just don’t know what to do anymore. :( I’m tired of being poor and feeling lost career wise. I can’t afford to go back to school and haven’t even been able to afford to pay down the student loans I have. I just don’t know what to do.

    I tried to get into freelancing and that was okay for a few months but after a few months my services were no longer needed.

  169. savannah*

    I’m looking for advice on a rapidly changing job. I started at my job in January of 2014. My title was ‘teapot program coordinator’ with the understanding that I would assist in program A and program B, which would interact with the overall teapot program. I have expertise in all three areas, although they are not wholly related beyond all being in the medical field. When I arrived in January it was apparent that my company had not passed the accreditation to have the teapot program. As such my work became programmatic support for program A and program B, each using 50% of my time. Formally my title never changed, despite my requests.
    I perform well for both program A and program B, although they are overseen by different departments and oversight of my time has been left entirely to me. I am most passionate about program B my academic credentials support my continued work in program B. Support of program B also entails 15% international travel, which is the main reason I was initially interested in this position. While I was recently traveling on behalf of program B, all three of my supervisors (program A and B directors and the overall chair of our unit) sat down to discuss my position and the need to rewrite my job description. Both of my supervisors requested that I be assigned to their department full time and a decision was made by our chair that I will go to program A full time. This discussion has not been disclosed to me officially, although I have been requested to rewrite my job description to reflect a new title ‘program A coordinator’ and asked to make a list of my duties for program B. I have had very candid conversation in the past year and a half with all three superiors discussing my deep interest in program B and continued international travel opportunities are integral to my continued tenure at this position.
    I find myself concerned at the lack of agency I have in these decisions and because I am perhaps overpaid in my position now, I think my preference for program B is being overlooked. I have only been at the company for less than 18 months, I don’t want to burn my company however and replacing me will be difficult. All my supervisors have been very supportive in general with educational opportunities. I am being paid probably 20K over what I could be, however I am living in a less than desirable area just for this job where cost of living is high. I just would like to get some outsider perspective on this situation.

    1. AnotherFed*

      How recently have you discussed your preference for program B with your supervisors? Have you clearly expressed that preference? If it was something like “I really like international travel.” or “I find program B very interesting.” that does not equal “If I were only working on on thing, I would want it to be program B.” If you have not had that frank discussion yet, or have not had it recently, it’s probably too late at this point for you to keep program B – it would have to be about your future growth at this company and where you see your career going.

      That said, it isn’t reasonable to expect to get to choose what projects you work on unless you’re a consultant or very senior. Sure, you can express a preference, but every company has work that must be done, whether it’s anyone’s top choice to do or not, and it’s the company’s prerogative to assign that work to whoever they feel will be the best employee to do it. You have to decide if you’re willing to do the work they assign for the wages and benefits they are offering, and if you aren’t, then start looking for a new job.

      1. savannah*

        Thanks for your feedback. All three of my supervisors know that my preferred career path is within the field of program B. The chair even mentioned that I add one or two items from Program B into my new job description in order to ‘keep me happy and here’. The last time I spoke with my chair about this preference was right before I left to go abroad for 3 weeks for program B which was in February. Each program is very distinct and switching back to program B work after 1-2 years in program A will be immensely difficult. I am just disappointed since if I could still be involved with program B I could see myself at the company for another 3-4 years. The thought of having to get back out there in the job search grind for what I imagine will be a serious pay cut is frustrating.

  170. Not So NewReader*

    Alison… these open threads are getting larger and larger. They are really growing. This has to be one of the biggest open threads yet.

  171. InterviewersAnon*

    What is the best and most professional thing to say when declining a job offer from another company, which I have already negotiated and verbally accepted (with the exception of start date – only because I needed to check how the proposed date would work with a major project I am managing at my current job)?

    I used my network to find and interview for this position and am afraid that declining will burn my bridge there.

    However, my current company pulled out all the stops to keep me onboard and I have decided to stay.

    What’s the best thing to say when declining the job to have the best chance of maintaining the relationships I have there?

      1. BRR*

        This is possibly the single most important post Alison has written. Maybe because it seems to be the only post on the topic but I cringe now when I see people taking a counter offer.

  172. voluptuousfire*

    Since we have a large contingent of MLIS degree holders here, what jobs can you do that aren’t being a librarian? I’ve considered going back to school for something and I keep coming back around to the MLIS degree. I like the idea of learning how to organize information and such and I really have no desire to become a librarian.

    1. Ruffingit*

      You can work sometimes in medical records. The woman who oversees medical records where I work has an MIS. I’m thinking an MLIS would be helpful in that field too.

    2. BRR*

      Check out the jobs posted on I need a library job. They post a lot of alternate jobs where similar skills are used and from fields where librarians end up. This should give you a starting point.

      But I have to ask why you are considering going back to school and will it really help you?

  173. Anx*

    I may post this again next week since it’s already Sunday night, but here it goes:

    Does anyone with ATS knowledge or HR experience know if it’s possible to delete your profile or find out if you’ve been blacklisted?

    I have applied to a university…a lot. I have been unemployed for most of the 3+ years I’ve lived here and the university is one of the few employers for several of the fields I have interest and experience in. I sent in nearly 20 applications for admin support staff (they didn’t require prior experience, and I had some related experience) for departments that I had specialized knowledge in. I also sent in a few applications for 4 different types of jobs. I admit part of it was the desperation of long-term unemployment, but I also really could see myself performing all of those positions as potential careers.

    In the past two years I’ve only applied to a few positions there, mostly ones I just couldn’t imagine not applying for.

    Is there any way of knowing if I’ve blacklisted myself? I’d like to know in part to decide if I need to try to expedite my move to another area and also before I do an internship at this school (I know an internship doesn’t mean a job offer later, but I may only have one shot at an internship and want to maximize the potential of becoming employed afterward; they are the only research institute in the commutable area). I’d really much prefer to work at that institution than elsewhere, and I think it’s a much better fit than the alternatives, but if I take an internship with them, that may not translate as well to other companies that are starting to hire now.

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