open thread – April 10, 2015

by Alison Green on April 10, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,308 comments }

{ 1,308 comments… read them below }

  1. TCO*

    I could use some tips on strong resume words. I took a great new job about 9 months ago, and while I’m not looking to leave, I do want to update my resume and LinkedIn profile with my new responsibilities.

    I came from small organizations where I had a lot of ownership over my work. My resume is filled with words like “developed,” “managed,” and “oversaw.”

    In my current job, I have much less autonomy. I’ll gain more over time, but in the meantime my role is more of a program supporter than a program manager. My official job description is filled with words like “coordinate,” “support,” and “assist,” and those are pretty accurate descriptions of what I do. It’s high-level support, and a very respected and competitive role, but I still don’t have true ownership over many of my projects.

    It’s not really a step down in the level of work, but it certainly looks different on paper. I don’t want to overstate my program management/ownership (especially since I’m connected to all of my coworkers on LinkedIn), but I also don’t want to give the impression that this job has less responsibility than my prior jobs.

    Any advice about how I finesse this?

    1. danr*

      Don’t “finesse” anything. Let yourself grow into the position and change your profile as your role changes. The people in the company will know if you’re being honest in how you describe what you do, and they’re your main audience now.

      1. TCO*

        Actually, I work with a lot of external stakeholders, and some of them are pretty influential. Networking is a big deal here and could give me opportunities when I’m ready to move. My skills will obviously come out in my interactions with people, but I also want to make my LinkedIn profile really reflect my talents.

    2. Malissa*

      Can you go with some thing like:
      Supports X amount of users
      Coordinates 3 teams to project completion

      Coordinate and support are both powerful words. Use them, just include specific metrics.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Focus less on “strong resume words” (that tends to be kind of weak advice from people who don’t write great resumes) and more on ensuring that as many bullet points as possible describe achievements, not just activities you engaged in. It shouldn’t read like a list of duties; it should read like a list of outcomes that you achieved.

      1. TCO*

        That’s a helpful reminder; thanks. I’d say my current LinkedIn description describes my accomplishments, but not necessarily the impacts of those accomplishments, if that makes sense. I could strengthen it by highlighting the ways in which our team’s work outcomes have improved thanks to the “behind the scenes” efforts I put in.

    4. Career Counselor*

      Hi,
      This question is not career counselor-client related but an internal office question. I am the only one in my office who works with my organization, so sometimes it is hard to figure out who I to report to on non-work related matters. However, there is this awful woman that works next to me. She is very rude to her boss and coworkers. I have only said a couple of words to her in the year that she has been here, but she knows I do not like her. I am assuming she has asked her coworkers why I don’t like her and I am not sure if they have told her the truth. Pretty much everyone in the office has either complained to her boss or the center supervisor about her behavior and her tone. I am leaving just because of her. Is there any point in when I do leave writing her a letter saying that she needs to be nicer to people? I know people do not change that easily, but it frustrates me that she gets away with it and good talent is leaving because of her (not only me but others in the office have requested a transfer).
      Thank you,

      1. River*

        Any point? It might make you feel a sense of satisfaction, I suppose. Other than that, no. If her boss and supervisor already know people have problems working with her, and they haven’t addressed it, then that’s really the issue here. Of course, it’s possible they are doing something about these complaints that you simply are not privy to.

        Either way, sending her a letter as you suggest is not going to do anything to help the situation. If you have an exit interview, you could politely bring this up. Otherwise, move on and forget it.

  2. edj3*

    I’d love your thoughts on a question my husband and I were discussing last week.

    I had an offer coming in on a consulting position—great pay, 15 month commitment, doing work I like in a new-to-me industry. I’ve been doing external consulting for the last seven years or so, and getting that kind of a long-contract is a Very Good Thing. However, I also knew I probably had an offer coming in for a permanent position, which I was very interested in.

    My husband thought that I could ask the hiring manager for the consulting job for a few days to think about it so I could talk to the hiring manager for the permanent position. I thought that no, that would be very strange, that in consulting you pretty much answer on the spot. Of course that may be confirmation bias on my part, because that’s what I’ve done.

    If you’ve hired consultants, what’s your take? Would you give your top person the couple of days or would you say never mind, cross that name off your list and move to #2?

    1. IT Kat*

      Personally, I’d give the top contender a few days. Consulting is a job, like any other. I think any reasonable person would feel the same and be willing to wait a few days, unless it’s something that has been communicated as needed to be started ASAP.

      Note the keyword up there: “reasonable”. As we know, not all people are reasonable. But unless you’ve seen red flags during the process, I don’t see any reason to not ask.

    2. QAT Contractor*

      I don’t think it’s strange at all. As a consultant you can easily have a lot of open positions you are contacted about at the same time and taking a couple days to think about which one will be better for you makes sense.

    3. KathyGeiss*

      I’m not in consulting and I don’t hire consultants, so disregard if this doesn’t work.

      Could you go with a version of the truth? Say something like, “this sounds great for me but I have another client up in the air right now that I’d like to confirm with first to ensure I can dedicate the appropriate tkme to this project. Can you give me 3 days to firm that up before I give you an answer?”

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        Or even “something else up in the air” if you don’t want to say it’s another potential client.

    4. edj3*

      You guys are making my husband do his happy dance since you’ve all lined up with what he thought :)

  3. Yellow Flowers*

    I had an interesting AAM/Alison moment this week. I’m growing frustrated with an administrative assistant in my office. My first response was wanting to vent about it to someone else who works for me in a different position but would understand my frustration. Then I realized how inappropriate it was for me to talk to one employee about another. So, I thought of reaching out to a peer in my office – another department head – that I’m friendly with and talking with her. As I was thinking of what I would say to her, I realized that was also inappropriate, and if I had an problem with an employee, THAT is who I should be talking to. Thanks to Alison and the AAM community for helping me realize that if I have a problem with someone, the first step should be talking with that person. Seems pretty basic, but it was a really powerful realization.

    2. cuppa*

      Sometimes it’s amazing to me how I know things, but I don’t realize them. Once I come to the realization that I am doing the wrong thing, or I need to do something else, it’s like a big DUH!

    3. KathyGeiss*

      This is awesome.

      I’ve been in the position where a boss vents to me about other employees and I can confirm it’s truly awkward. Even when I totally agree with the boss about the problem it felt weird and uncomfortable. Yay for you for avoiding that!

    4. Gen*

      I can absolutely relate to this. There have been at least a dozen instances where I’ve stopped myself from complaining even to my husband about work and thought, “what would Alison do?” This is one of the greatest things I’ve learned from reading this site religiously for two years now.

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          I’d settle for a cross stitch sampler or something, I could hang it right in my cube!

    5. Michele*

      Could you please let about half the people in my department know about this? No one ever addresses things directly. They will literally huddle in corners and whisper about another person rather than have a conversation with the person they are whispering about. It is like a junion high school hallway around here.

    6. Rin*

      The only time this doesn’t work is when the person just won’t hear. Like if I tell this one person he’s doing something either incorrectly or even annoying or whatever, he’ll scream or attack me, but if I tell my boss to tell him, then sometimes he’ll change. It’s because he doesn’t respect me, and I couldn’t possibly know what I’m talking about or be annoyed by anything he does.

  4. Sue*

    What makes a good manager?

    I’ve been in the professional workforce, at two different Fortune 500 companies, for 10 years, in which time I’ve had over a dozen managers, and I wouldn’t consider any of them a particularly good manager. There are some I liked on a personal level, and some whose knowledge and professional achievements I respected, but none I actually considered to be good at managing. I’m thinking about entering the management track myself, but I’m concerned about the fact that I don’t have a single role model to whom I can look as an example of a good manager.

    I recognize that management is harder than it looks, and sometimes I wonder if being a good manager and being a successful manager are mutually exclusive. All of my managers who have succeeded in moving up the ladder have treated employees terribly — threatening and punishing employees, not respecting work/life balance, lying and making false promises to employees, and throwing employees under the bus at every opportunity. I would hate myself if I became this kind of manager, and yet it seems as though this style of management gets rewarded.

    I also recognize that “good management” depends on perspective. For example, poor performers and unmotivated employees like managers who will leave them alone and not hold them accountable, but this is clearly not good management, and could cause resentment from good performers. I think a lot of the shortfalls I’ve seen in management styles come down to addressing conflicts and performance problems, and my managers have generally been split between (1) avoiding conflict, letting problems fester, and allowing poor performers to drag the team down, and (2) being jerks, addressing problems with threats and intimidation, and punishing the whole team for the failings of a few.

    TL;DR: What makes a manager good? If you’ve had a good manager — someone who could be a role model for aspiring managers — what differentiates them from the bad and mediocre ones? How can a manager strike a balance between treating her employees well and pleasing her own managers?

    1. Dawn*

      A good manager will help you see and develop your professional strengths. She’ll also help you identify your professional weaknesses or shortcomings, and help you make them stronger. She’ll push you to do new things, encourage you to stretch yourself, offer advice when it’s needed, and guide you to grow. She’ll force independence while at the same time having your back so you know you can come to her if you need to. She’ll dictate tasks when that’s what’s called for, and she’ll leave things up to your own judgement when she knows that you can handle it. Most importantly, she’ll trust you and the things that she’s taught you and will guide you to autonomy, and ultimately guide you towards wherever you want to go in your career whether it’s moving into her job or into a different role, or growing within your own role and expanding your responsibilities.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      For me it’s treating people fairly, not playing favorites, being willing to be “in the weeds” sometimes along with your direct reports when it’s needed, listening, and going to bat for people when it’s called for.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Obviously there’s more, but that’s off the top of my head.

        Another one…telling someone they need to improve on something, rather than letting it go and letting them think everything is A-OK. Didn’t happen to me, but I’ve seen it happen.

      2. Jennifer*

        I second this. Being on the side of your employees and doing your best to fight for them instead of leaving them under the bus.

        I love my manager, but … yeah, she’s not one of those “bad managers,” so she never got ahead, I guess. Well, I doubt she cares too much on that score.

      3. Dasha*

        This! I feel like the worst managers I had would play favorites… it’s horrible for morale.

      4. JPixel*

        +1 to working alongside your employees in the trenches, whether it’s filling in for someone below you or just sticking around when you could easily just go home and let the people below you deal with whatever the problem is.

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’m sure I read something Alison had written that said some of her worst managers taught her the most, as an example of not what to do. So not having a positive role model isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

    4. C Average*

      You know, I’ve been trying to work this out myself. I recently sent a thank-you email to the best manager I’ve ever had, and just trying to put into words WHY he was the best manager I’ve ever had was really challenging.

      I think his best quality was his ability to set and maintain a calm, confident tone. I imagine working for him was like being on the crew of a ship with a wise, experienced captain. The dude just had a very cool head and calm demeanor and an ability to spread that emotional climate to those who reported to him. Working for him, I felt like all problems were ultimately solvable and no project was too hard.

      He was incredibly astute at office politics and at the same time incredibly direct in his own interactions–a combination I’ve found to be almost unheard of. He operated with complete awareness of the various spoken and unspoken hierarchies, but managed to be unfailingly honest and authentic.

      He asked for exactly what he wanted in clear words, and he gave clear feedback. You never had to wonder whether he was pleased with your work or not. He’d praise you if he was pleased, and he’d give you direct, kind, and in-private feedback when he wasn’t.

      He worked insanely hard and set a very high standard for his team. It’s the only team I’ve ever been on where I truly believe the manager was the hardest-working person on the team. He never said he expected any of the rest of us to work as hard as he did, but the example he set inspired all of us to do our best.

      The dude was a mensch, personally and professionally. It was a privilege to work for him.

    5. KathyGeiss*

      Have you considered looking for a different company that has a culture of training and rewarding good management? I feel like some companies do well at this and others don’t so even moving within a company won’t provide good management. At my company, managers are trained in leadership and people management. They aren’t always the best at the skill or technical aspect of the team but they are hired for people management skills. It makes a huge difference.

      Sounds like the companies you’ve worked for reward poor management as a part of their culture.

      1. Sue*

        The awful management was one of the main reasons I changed companies in the first place, but the second company was just as bad! I’m not sure I want to keep moving around because of this; I feel like it’s a bit of a wild goose chase.

        Oddly enough, both companies have quite a bit of formal management training. Every new manager attends a 3-week management training class as well as Crucial Conversations training. I just think the companies don’t practice what they preach. I’ve seen a lot of managers start out ok, but quickly fall into the same bad habits as the rest of management.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Some companies have all the right talk but then do not allow people to have the time to actually do it. They switch deadlines, change responsibilities and so on which just sets off a chain of chaos.
          I worked for a company that added on 2-3 more procedures every week. This was on top of the the 110K procedures we already had. “Oh, it only takes a minute or two.” Well, that is true, but that is also a superficial view of what is going on. A 8 hour day is 480 minutes. It is not possible to do 600 tasks that only take a minute in that same period. To me it was simple math.
          Honestly, I think that some of the things companies preach is merely to satisfy external stakeholders. “Yes, we always tell our people X, Y and Z.”
          Yeah, but do you give them time to do it????

        2. Graciosa*

          I think part of the issue is the fundamental question of how managers are rewarded.

          One nice thing for me at the moment is that I have a manager who is clearly concerned about how well I’m developing talent on my team. If my manager was solely focused on short-term production, my job as a manager would be a lot harder.

          This doesn’t mean that I have no responsibility for results – I absolutely do. It does mean my boss reacts positively when I tell him that I’m sending someone out for training, or that the whole team will be unavailable for a couple days because we’re going to work off site on a long-term improvement project.

          A reaction of “How can X be out of the office when we have so much work to do?” would send a very different message about what my boss thinks my priorities should be.

    6. Stef*

      I remember a couple of posts from Alison where she explained that she learned how to be a good manager by trying to NOT do what the terrible manager she had in the past did.
      I think that goes perfectly here: do you remember being pissed of by managers treating people unfairly or letting things fester? Aim to treat the people you supervise as you would have liked to be treated and don’t fall into the common fear of facing issues when they present themselves and fix them.

    7. JPixel*

      I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately as I consider where my own career in management should be going. Here are the first things that come to my mind when I think about a good manager. It’s someone who:
      1. Meets with employees and sets clear goals for the job and for how to be successful
      2. Addresses issues as they happen and makes sure employees understand the repercussions
      3. Gives positive feedback when people do well – directly to the person and publicly (to the department, other managers, whoever is relevant)
      4. Understands what her employees do even if she doesn’t have that specific skill set and is not afraid to ask questions/not be the expert
      5. Is invested in growing and retaining talent and making them feel valuable, even if employees are not in their “dream jobs” – i.e. even if the job has low pay, bad hours, little responsibility, etc.

      I think a mediocre manager dodges uncomfortable situations or only cares that the job gets done, not that it gets done well.

      1. The HR Witch*

        +1 to these, and adding
        6. Asks for and works with feedback from her team – even the best manager has learning edges/blind spots and those being managed often have the best perspective for identifying them!

    8. matcha123*

      The places I’ve worked full-time probably differ from the typical American office; I have one person who’s kind of like the manager of my little island of four (including myself). She has the final word on most of our work before it’s passed off to our department’s two higher-ups.

      What she does that I like is observe. She doesn’t immediately go with the loudest or flashiest person. She tries to delegate work as fairly as she can and tries to match tasks to areas we have competence in. For example, she knows that I have some knowledge about website building and such, so she’s asked me to tackle our website and web related translations. It’s also easy to voice our ideas and she encourages us to use our vacation time.

      This is certainly easier with a smaller group, but I think that in general people who are a bit quieter have their ideas and work styles suppressed by louder and more aggressive types.

    9. Joey*

      The ability to be tough but kind. And someone who gets results by motivating you to perform. They motivate you by removing the barriers in front of you, making the environment as pleasant as possible, treating you with respect and dignity, and is fair.

    10. The RO-Cat*

      My go-to book was – and still is – First Break All The Rules. It doesn’t really depict the portrait of the Ultimate Manager, but it gives enough information for anyone to get there. I learned a lot from it (and its sequel, Follow This Path).

    11. AdAgencyChick*

      1. Empathy (without crossing the line into coddling). A manager who puts herself into her employees’ shoes is a manager who won’t dump all the work onto them while she waltzes out the door at 5 PM, who will take care to communicate clearly (because often, when you don’t get back the work product you want, it’s because you didn’t ask for it as clearly as you thought you did), and who will keep an eye on her direct reports’ long-term career paths — even if that means one day managing a direct report into a different position or even helping her find opportunities outside the organization. I realize this last is sometimes at odds with what an employer wants — if, say, a star performer is being underpaid, the organization might prefer that the manager focus on ways to retain that employee without paying her more. But I think part of being a good manager is helping people along the career path that’s best for them, not necessarily working your direct reports for as much as you can get out of them until they figure out they could be doing better elsewhere.

      2. Knowing how to discipline and, when necessary, fire, with compassion. You can like an employee and treat her well even through a PIP or a firing, recognizing that a bad fit doesn’t necessarily mean a bad person.

      3. Not being afraid of difficult conversations, and going into one prepared for what *might* happen, but also not having a script in your head of what will happen, so that you’re prepared to listen to what reaction you actually get (in case it’s not the one you’re anticipating).

    12. TheLazyB*

      Wow. Reading this i realise one of my very first managers was good but most of the others have sucked.
      I think i need to learn to manage myself.

    13. JMegan*

      The best manager I ever had was when I worked in a bookstore.

      *When giving instructions, he would show us what to do, then give us the space to do it.
      *If we did something well, he would tell us. If we made a mistake, he would tell us how to fix it.
      *He shielded us from the Big Boss, who was a micromanaging nitwit.
      *He did formal performance reviews annually, and that there were never any surprises in them (see above.)
      *He kept the schedule for part-timers as stable and predictable as possible, with changes posted as far in advance as possible.
      *The store occasionally held events in the evening, after our usual closing hours. He tried to make sure that everybody got their preference for working or not working the extra hours; and when that wasn’t possible he was transparent and fair about assigning them.

      In short – he respected his staff as human beings with lives outside the store, he assumed we were able to do our jobs, and he helped us out when we didn’t. That bookstore is long gone, but if I had the opportunity I would work for him again in a heartbeat!

  5. Nervous Accountant*

    I emailed Alison but I’d like some advice on this if its not too late….?

    The other day I got a message from a coworker that said “other than being weird I think “Nervous Accountant” is kind of a bitch bc she never wants to help with work”. Once she realized she sent it to me she sent me more msgs expressing embarrassment and that she meant to say someone else’s name.

    Normally, I would have given benefit of the doubt but then my gut tells me otherwise.

    [The quick background if it matters?–I posted in the open thread about 2 weeks ago about how people thought I was weird ans not in a good way and didn’t like me, a friend-coworker explained why and I fixed those habits….it helped a little].

    This person though, this was someone I had considered a work friend. I never got any feeling from her that she was upset w me about anything. And whenever she had questions about work I did my best to help her but I’m fairly inexperienced as well so I’m still unsure of many things.

    The friend-coworker was trying to mend things by saying this person who sent the msg felt really bad and doesn’t dislike me…yet she hasn’t once approached me to apologize. I’m carrying on like normal and just don’t speak to her (haven’t needed to buy if I did I think i would be polite and professional).

    What do you guys think? Am I overreacting? Is this something you take to a manager? Should I say something to her or let it go? I’ve always had a hard time standing up for myself and I end up letting people walk all over me. Even when I got the chat all I said was “I’m sorry I always try to help you the best that I can.”

    Im just so so so tired of being on eggshells. I think I have so many good things to offer as a friend and coworker but it doesn’t feel like anyone sees it. It feels like everyone else is allowed to have flaws and still be well liked. I put 100% into everything and clients (sometimes) say I’m mean and coworkers call me a bitch.

    I’ve had 2-3 days to calm down now but i felt pretty shitty that night and I still have bad feelings. One of the things I loved about this company from temping last year was how friendly and genuine everyone was with each other. I hear advice all the time that friends at work are a no no but it gets so damn lonely now.

    1. Sunshine*

      I’m so sorry that was wildly unprofessional, mean and inappropriate of your coworker! You have every right to feel hurt. Honestly I have no idea how to handle this. Is there a way to forward the message to HR or a manager and ask how do you deal with this? I even don’t like that advice as it would likely backfire, I am curious how others with more professional experience have to say, I am about 5 years into the workforce. But it sounds like a change would be good for you and a new environment. Maybe this just isn’t the right fit, you deserve to be somewhere where you don’t have to worry about this and can just focus on work and the interpersonal relationships come naturally. That is how it has always happened for me I never concerned myself with making friend at work but just continued to be a pleasant, engaging person and hard worker and it all just came with that.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I actually wouldn’t take this to a manager or HR, in part because of the other context that Nervous Accountant has shared here previously, where her boss has been concerned she’s not being warm enough with clients. I’d be wary of giving your boss further reason to worry about relationship-building skills. (Actually, even if that weren’t the case, I don’t think I’d take this to a boss or HR — it’s not really escalation-worthy like that. But I think especially important not to do it if the boss is already worrying about how you’re getting along with others.)

        1. The IT Manager*

          I agree. How is the manager supposed to deal with this? So far this is one-off mistake. Obviously it was a mis-directed message so co-worker wasn’t really meaning to hurt nervous accountant. I would hope co-worker learned her lesson about not doing this again or at least triple checking the “To” box if she does.

          I feel for nervous accountant. I have been the one who is very much excluded from group in the past situations, but there’s nothing here for management to fix.

        2. Nervous Accountant*

          I didn’t think of it from this angle, but it makes sense! I stillthink most of the people I work with are nice, this was the first time I experienced any outright hostility but I think my mistake was trying to be friends with anyone (aside from friend-coworker I mentioend above because I was friends with her before she started working here). Regarding client issues, things started out rough, but I’ve improved significantly and my boss sees that. The last time a client complained, the coworker who brought it forth admitted that the client had lied about everything. A small comfort, but I think it counts for something? I thought that this was finally going to be the place Whre I wouldn’t have any coworker issues.

          1. Molly*

            In your shoes, I think I would take the high road. Include this coworker in your efforts to build better relationships with your colleagues. If you’re fixing issues with your work style to fit better with the office culture, practice your new, improved behaviors on this colleague. Be nice and warm to her – genuinely nice and warm, not fake nice and warm, because that’s how you change people’s minds about you

            I would never mention this email issue to her or to anyone else at the office again. When you get into the interpersonal weeds like this at work, it always makes you look bad – no matter how justified you might be.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Oh, god. That’s the worst. My sister actually once sent me a text message about me that she’d meant for her husband. I called her out on it.

      Here’s the thing with your coworker – you know she was badmouthing you. She knows you know. She was writing about you and accidentally put your name in the “to” line. It happens. She got caught.

      I wouldn’t take it to the manager, but I would definitely let the work friendship cool off. She’s not your friend, she’s a gossip and a jerk. Just do your thing at work and do a good job, but don’t lose sleep over whether or not these people like you personally.

    3. Dawn*

      Dude this is high school level drama bomb crap. Of course you feel crappy- what happened was crappy! But it’s NOT YOUR FAULT and it doesn’t have a place at work, at all. I had a great mentor who said that she always endeavored to be pleasant and professional with everyone she worked with, but that she didn’t come to work to make friends- if she made a friend out of a co-worker, then that was a bonus, but she didn’t seek warmth and friendship from her work colleagues and she didn’t expect it. I think that’s great advice because it helps draw a boundary wherein you can be in Work Mode when you’re at work- pulling out your professional, neutral, pleasant self- and then be in Friend Mode when you’re not at work (and ONLY when you’re not at work).

      You don’t need to be buddies, friends, or pals with the people you work with. You NEED to be professional, pleasant, and competent. If friendships arise out of that, great. If not, whatever.

      2. Sunflower*

        So true. My boss hates this one department and thinks they’re weird. Why? Because 1. they ask him to do annoying things even though he knows it’s their job to ask and his to send them and 2. They don’t stop by his office to chat like other people do. Of course, my boss is also the guy that loves to walk around all day and talk to people and wants to be a ‘cool boss’. So I would not put much weight in their opinions. FWIW- I think the department is very nice, but based on the way our office is set-up, I just don’t have a lot of reason to talk to them that often. I enjoy the conversations I have with them and just because we barely talk, it means nothing about my feelings towards any of them. Of course, not all people are so advanced to understand these things so that could be playing into this too!

    4. Bend & Snap*

      That’s so mean. And so unprofessional.

      I’d focus less on “friends at work” and focus more on healthy working relationships. That message is an indicator that there are still bridges to build.

      Do you have a mentor in the office? That’s someone who could advise you on how to deal with this person going forward. I’m also wondering if that note is worthy of taking to management, if there are other ways this person is making your job difficult.

      If you don’t have a mentor, it’s definitely worth looking into.

    5. Persephone Mulberry*

      Depending on your relationship with your manager, I might go to them and say that you “overheard” someone say that they didn’t think you pull your weight, and ask if there’s something you need to be doing more/differently. I assume that if this is a genuine perception, you want to fix it, right? If you’re not comfortable going to your manager, you could perhaps ask friend-coworker. I might even suggest asking the coworker directly, IF you think she will believe that you really want her feedback and aren’t just being defensive.

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        I like this approach. Don’t let it come across like you’re whining that people don’t like you because as AAM and others have said that’s not an issue for your boss to handle, but rather that you’ve heard there’s a concern and you want your manager’s take on it and how you could address it if she thinks it’s a valid criticism.

        And I am so, so sorry this happened. You are more than your job, more than how your coworkers and clients see you. You’ve been sounding pretty beaten down. I hope things start looking up.

    6. Natalie*

      Oh, ouch. That sucks. I’ve been lonely at a job and it was pretty painful, and this kind of thing never helps. (I found a printout of my boss complaining to my other boss about me, which, holy unprofessional batman. Why did you print that email?)*

      If you feel fairly confident that you are helping when and where you can and not slacking, I would ignore it. At most I might talk to my manager about how they perceived my performance, specifically where pitching in is concerned. Probably easier said than done, but I just don’t see a conversation with this co-worker getting you anywhere.

      Clients thinking you’re mean is more of a problem. Is your manager working with you on that?

      *I think you can be lonely at a job without the alternative being besties with all of your co-workers. There’s a healthy level of friendliness and camaraderie that is noticeable if it’s absent.

    7. Carrie in Scotland*

      I don’t have any advice, but I like what Katie the Fed says above.

      Also, I’m sorry that your job/workplace situation isn’t really improving – you’ve had a rough few months from what you’ve posted previously with 1 thing & another. *hugs*

    8. Malissa*

      Are you me?
      I would go to the person in question and directly but nicely say, “I’d appreciate it if in the future if you have a problem with me that you bring it to me. I didn’t realize you wanted more help from me. As I am new and fairly inexperienced here I’m nervous when it comes to helping others out. But if you would like me to help you in any way I would be more than willing to give it a try.”
      But mostly if I were you I’d work on gaining more confidence in my own skills, so you feel better about what you are doing and feel more confident about helping others. also remember there is a line between helping people and being a door mat.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I totally agree with this advice. I have done it a few times. I cannot describe how much relief I got from doing this. Yes, it was the hardest thing in the world. You know what I was afraid of the most? An irrational reaction. I feared that I would be told something that didn’t even make sense or something I had done would be taken out of context and totally misconstrued. That was my fear. I don’t like fighting those fights. At all!

          Instead what I usually found was back pedaling. Lots and lots of back pedaling. Very seldom did the person actually state a clear problem to me. Almost NEVER did the person state a problem that was within my means to fix.
          In the end, I felt good about myself. I felt that I had stood up for myself. And it did encourage certain types of people to watch what they said.

          And yes, you have learned a lot about this person that you would have been happier not knowing. But. The rule holds: be careful what you say to people. Do not say things that you would not say to the whole group. You can’t control what this person did to you but you can control how you handle yourself going forward. What this means is tell the third party that is bridging this for you to STOP. Tell the 3rd party that if the emailer wants to talk to you she can but you are done discussing it. Only deal with people directly, do not let 3rd parties get involved. Third party “helpers” only add to the drama. If you go to a person and discuss matters directly that only raises you UP as a professional.

          You could chose not to go to this person and discuss the email. That is fine, also. Remember though that is a choice you have made. Don’t spend weeks beating yourself up because you later decided it was a poor choice. If you make this choice decide that you are going to be content with this choice. Don’t keep revisiting it in your mind. There were times where I let stuff go, too. It wasn’t the hill to die on. I had more pressing matters going on. You could just simply say, “I am sorry she feels that way. I hope at some point she feels she can come talk things over with me.”

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            I’m inclined to do this but I’m not sure if it’s because it’s just easier tto let it go than to confront or because it’s REALLY not a hill to die on. One reason to let it go is that our biggest deadline is only a few days away and I need all my focus on my work rather than on this. I know from past experience that I’ve regretted letting these type of things take up mental space when I could have focused on other things. But then another part of me burns that someone can get away with
            And what she said is completely wrong. I always help when she asks, we all help each other. I’m always nice and helpful to my coworkers.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              I think you have found your answer. I worked in a place where there was a lot going on all day, more so than other jobs. Somewhere along the lines, I decided when in doubt my default would be to focus on the job itself. Just like you are saying, I had a finite amount of energy.
              Over time, I started realizing that this default answer helped me. While others were caught up in who said what to whom, I was knocking out great work. I had nothing to be ashamed of. I could walk over to a bad-mouthing coworker and start a conversation, because I was not the one that did anything wrong here.

              Take satisfaction in knowing that YOUR professionalism remains intact here.

              1. C Average*

                Yep, yep, yep. Given what you’ve said, it totally makes sense to stay productive, stay professional, and let guilt burn a hole in your colleague without any further input from you.

      2. JB (not in Houston)*

        I think this is good advice. I would probably change the first part sentence and say instead “I’m sorry if I have done anything to make you think you couldn’t talk to me about this directly,” and the rest of what Malissa said. In other circumstances I’d go with exactly what Malissa said, but since you have had trouble with relationships with your coworkers already, it could benefit you to get them to think of you as more approachable.

        Yes, your coworker is in the wrong here. But by being the bigger person, you will have this coworker’s gratitude, you’ll feel potentially fix the awkwardness and hopefully have at least one problem who will talk to you about this kind of thing, you’ll look awesome, and you’ll have an example for your boss about how you work on having a good relationship with coworkers. Even if your coworker is totally wrong about you not helping with work, you don’t want coworkers to think of you that way. Even reputations based on false impressions can affect your reputation.

    9. cuppa*

      I don’t have any advice, but something slightly similar happened to me last week at work, and I know how you feel. Sometimes I feel like I try my best and I just can’t win. I am having trouble figuring out what to do other than find someone else to work. Sorry I don’t have anything better, but good luck.

    10. Sadsack*

      I am really sorry that you are in this position. I will be interested in what others have to say about it, because I am just not sure what advice to give! I would also be very hurt. You seem like you have already heard some criticism, considered its validity, and tried to make changes accordingly, which is all good. I wouldn’t recommend going to your manager just yet. I think what your coworker did was extremely mean and really unprofessional. I wonder if you went to her quietly and said, “Look, I know that the comment was really about me, I just think we should talk about it because I want to know if there is anything I should change about how I work, or if you just have some misunderstanding about me that I can clarify.” I think the fact that she is writing about you to coworkers in such a negative way, especially the bitch comment, is really shitty and maybe should be addressed by management, I am just not sure if that should happen until you’ve talked to her.

    11. QAT Contractor*

      Caught red handed for sure. Very inappropriate and hurtful, so you do have every right to be upset.

      Not everyone’s personality clicks with others; same for sense of humor. The way you interact with others is perfectly normal to you and your friends outside of work, but at work you are forced to interact with other personalities you might not normally interact with.

      It’s unfortunate that while you think you are being helpful, this other person doesn’t think so and is obviously a jerk about it behind your back. If she really thought you weren’t helpful she should have had a professional conversation with you face to face to address that fact. If that didn’t work, then talk to the manager, but not to other coworkers in such a rude and middle school bully type of way.

      What I would do from here is to just remain professional, she already called herself out on the mistake and tried what was likely an embarrassment fueled attempt at an apology that may or may not be genuine. If she were to truely be sorry she would also say that to your face, not through another person or chat system. If she asks you for help in the future (which doesn’t seem likely) don’t drop everything to do it with a hope of repairing the relationship; only take on the extra work if you really do have extra time to devote to it.

      She’s the one that snuffed out the work friendship, not you.

    12. Partly Cloudy*

      I agree with the others who said don’t take this to a manager. It will look like schoolyard tattling.

      Clients sometimes say you’re mean? To you, or…? How do you know this?

      1. fposte*

        Yes, good question. I like the rest of the answers for responding–and not responding–to your ridiculous co-worker, but I’m still wondering about this bit. I know sometimes accountants are mean in the sense of “You’re ruining my delusion! I don’t have money I thought I did!”, and maybe that’s what’s going on here, too. If so, I wouldn’t worry about that.

        1. Malissa*

          I once had a boss tell me that if I wan’t occasionally making someone mad I probably wan’t doing my job right.
          But there’s also a finesse in explaining to people that their budget won’t support what they want to do and what they are doing could be illegal and they should really stop. And those skills are that are learned through training and experience.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        A large part of my job is having phone consultations with clients. After their call, they’re sent a survey so they fill out that survey; either they fill out the survey with feedback or they complain to the salesperson who sold them our company’s services. When I started working a few months ago, I was getting a lot of complaints that clients thought I was rude, or nasty. My managers addressed these with me (ti was a rough conversation, like maybe they just didn’t like my voice or my tone was still too Unpleasant no matter how hard I tried etc), and within a few days/weeks, I was improving and received acknowledgement of this. 2.5 months ago I was moved ot another team where the clients were located in a different geographic location, and I have not heard of those complaints again (that made a little difference). So it has been over 2 months since I’ve heard about any client complaints and my boss acknowledges this.

        1. catsAreCool*

          That sounds like a rough conversation. Did the manager provide any concrete examples?

    14. Receptionist Without A Cause*

      I have a friend who uses the phrase ‘drama vector’ to describe people like that. Anything you feed into the drama vector will only come back to you as stress and conflicted emotions, so it’s best just to treat them as a slightly distant acquaintance and limit their influence on you.

    15. C Average*

      Ohhhhhh, I’m sorry. I know how much this kind of thing hurts.

      I’ve been on both sides of this: I’ve had something unkind I said about a colleague get back to her when I never intended for that to happen, and I’ve been the person who had something unkind said about me by a colleague who didn’t intend for me to see the message.

      First off, I’d say try to put it in perspective. Have you ever tossed off an unkind comment to a third party not because you really hated the person, but because you were momentarily frustrated or just feeling mean and it felt good to express it? Imagine if the subject had heard you. This is what’s happened here. EVERYONE does it–I mean, imagine if everything said here in the AAM comments got back to the person being discussed! People make judgments about other people all the time and, although I’m not saying it’s OK, it also doesn’t always indicate a level of animosity that needs to have you walking on eggshells. The comment I made about a colleague was made in a moment of pique in what I believed to be a place she’d never see it–but she did. I’m so grateful that she was eventually able to see it for what it was–one misplaced comment made in an emotional moment, not a permanent referendum on HER. She’s forgiven me, we have worked well together, and we were able to put my horrible gaffe behind us and be an effective team.

      Secondly, is there any grain of truth to what’s being said? This is the hard one. When I accidentally received a message not intended for me, it was from someone very high up in the company, and she was mocking my writing style and overall demeanor, making it clear that I was not and never would be one of the cool kids. I instantly felt like I’d been sent back to the eighth grade. I hid behind my monitor and wept for, like, half a day. (I’ve never been more grateful for an unshared cube and an oversized monitor.) But on further analysis, I realized that she was right about one thing: my style of writing and interacting didn’t mesh with the hip, edgy persona our brand was going for. It was a reality check: it made me realize I would never get a writing gig in the marketing department here, which was something I’d previously considered a realistic career option.

      Is there something you can do to be a more active contributor, even though you’re new? Is that a question you can take to your manager? Take a few days to process this and think it over, but do consider whether there’s anything at all in that feedback that might be actionable for you.

      If at all possible, try to open up some direct communication with the person who wrote the IM. Tell her you were hurt by what she wrote and that it wasn’t appropriate, and that you’d like to move past this and work effectively together. Let her know if she has any actionable feedback on your work that she can provide in a kind and direct and professional way, you’re open to hearing it, because you care about doing a good job and being an effective member of your team. Tell her you do not wish to be the subject of further gossip, though.

      Having this conversation with someone many levels above me was one of the most difficult things I’ve had to do professionally speaking. I had to completely check my ego, which is always hard. But we managed to salvage a productive professional relationship, my manager (with whom I discussed what had happened) praised my discretion and ability to take care of the problem myself in a professional way, and the person who criticized me went on to say some very kind things about me when I announced my resignation a couple weeks back.

      1. badger_doc*

        This is a GREAT reply!! Good advice and something even I will consider taking in the future as I am going through something a little similar at my workplace. Thanks C!

    16. Nobody*

      How awful… Your coworker is really rude and unprofessional, but I would NOT recommend taking this kind of thing to management or HR. First of all, management might get annoyed with you for causing drama (and I’m not saying it’s your fault — it’s not — but that doesn’t mean management will see it that way) and make the situation even worse. The childish coworker would probably either deny it or laugh it off like she was obviously just joking around and you’re weird for taking it seriously. Secondly, if the coworker finds out you went to management or HR, she might target you even more. Always remember that HR is not your friend. They exist to protect the company, not to help employees.

      I once went to HR about something. I was in the bathroom and a group of young new employees fresh out of college came in, talking about what a bitch I am for asking them to tone down their noisy social conversations. I wouldn’t have taken it to HR except for the fact that they started talking about plans to teach me a lesson and get me in trouble by accusing me of doing something terrible. I thought if I preemptively told HR that they were planning this, people wouldn’t believe their accusations, but guess what? They did it two days later and I was suspended for weeks while the accusations were investigated (and even when I was cleared, there were NO consequences for the liars). The worst part is that they know I heard them, because I walked right past them on my way out of the bathroom. They just looked at each other and giggled. I still don’t know what I should have done, but I do know that going to HR was not it.

      Have you thought about looking for another job? A lot of the things you said here remind me of what things were like in my previous job. It took a lot of searching, but I finally got out of there and went to a different company, and people actually like me and are nice to me here. I’m sure you’re right that you have a lot to offer, and I hope you find a job where people will see that.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Not helpful now, I do realize that. I am sorry this happened to you. Bullies like this count on “facts” such as “no one will believe Coworker if she repeats what we said”.

        The truth of the matter is that sometimes people DO believe us when we report something like this. Additionally, we can keep going until we find someone who WILL listen. If HR does not listen, perhaps the boss will listen. If the boss does not listen perhaps a respected senior coworker will listen. Granted, it could be that no one will listen, but OTH, if we have the sheer gall to keep going, we might find someone who will listen.

        1. Nobody*

          The facts were in my favor, so I was eventually cleared of the allegations, but not before I was humiliated and slandered and had my job threatened. Anyway, my point in sharing this story is that sometimes people decide they don’t like you for whatever reason. Maybe it was something you did or said, maybe it was what you look like or how you dress, maybe it was random. But when someone has it in for you, the situation can very quickly spiral out of control. I think a lot of it is because of cognitive dissonance, because nobody wants to believe they’re the mean girls picking on an innocent coworker, so the meaner they are, the more invested they get in convincing themselves and others that you deserve it, you’re the bitch. And once multiple people side against you, it’s hard to turn things around because management and HR are now preconditioned to assume any problems must be your fault.

          That’s why I would urge anyone in this situation to get out if possible. It sucks to be pushed out of a job, but it’s better to start somewhere new where people aren’t conditioned to think you’re the enemy than to stick around while people make your life miserable.

    17. Nervous Accountant*

      Thank you e veryone for replying. I usually only browse AAM on my phone and not at the work computer (open plan and all) but I always appreciate the advice everyone gives whenever I post! I usually take a few days to type out a post, that’s why I have such long posts but never really follow up, but I read everything and am so thankful that anyone decides to take the time to respond!

      A few people did suggest I go to HR but I didn’t want to for many reasons, some indicated here, some for my own reasons, and also, its tax season and I doubt my manager would appreciate having to deal with this. As it is, I didn’t mention anything to anyone else..

      1. RidingNerdy*

        Best of luck with the remaining (few! yay! fist bump!) days of busy season. I know how nerves can get frazzled and the worst of people starts to show. Keep your head up! Lots of good advice here.

      2. Sarah*

        This suggestion might not help right now, but after tax season if you want to work on others perception of you at work, maybe read up a little on body-language or unspoken communication/signalling? I had a job once that required me to work with new people every day and establish relationships quickly that would allow the other person to feel comfortable while being interviewed and providing personal information. I was lucky enough to have a family member who is a counsellor and she gave me a few tips both on reading other people’s non-verbal signals and on the non-verbal signals I would send to make people more comfortable with me. It really helped me produce better work, and I appreciated feeling like I had something concrete to focus on and learn about.

      3. Jaune Desprez*

        I’m so sorry this happened to you, but at least you’ve gotten great support and advice here. And I think you’re making the right decision to let it pass without comment, especially during your busy season.

        You mentioned one thing that I don’t think anyone else touched on, which is that your coworkers sometimes ask for help that you don’t feel able to provide because you’re still new and unsure. What’s worked really well for me in the past is to say something like, “I’m still new to X and I haven’t run across this question before, so I don’t know how do that yet. However, Jane has been great with all my other X questions, and I bet she’ll know. Why don’t we both go and see if she has a minute to explain it to us?”

        I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you can take a little time to rest and regroup after the 15th!

  6. Guten Tag!*

    Trying to brainstorm a list of potential jobs that are part of the customer service field, jobs with a good amount of interactions with customers/clients. Any ideas besides the standard retail, food service, strictly phone-operator, and technical support jobs?

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        Similarly, working in a library/museum/art gallery etc.

        To be honest, I work in an academic place and still have quite a lot of dealings with students/prospective students/academics etc.

        1. stillLAH*

          Or the arts field in general: orchestra and theater ticketing have a lot of public interaction.

    2. Allstonian*

      Have you considered hospitality? The Front Desk at a hotel is very customer service oriented.

    3. ali*

      any sort of hospitality job – from hotel front desk to shuttle driver. also most types of business consultants/trainers.

    4. HigherEd Admin*

      Echoing hospitality. I worked at the front desk of a hotel during college and LOVED the interaction with the guests (well, the nice ones anyway).

      Any reception-type role has a lot of interaction. Our career center has a front desk that is the first stop for students to ask questions and get information and generally learn more about what we do.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I went from food service to reception. It was a natural extension of customer service. Trouble is, those jobs don’t typically pay much more than food service unless you find one in a larger company (or one that actually values having a professional person at the front desk).

      2. Elsajeni*

        I feel like there are a lot of student-facing (or prospective-student-facing) jobs in higher ed that could fall into this category.

    5. manomanon*

      Donor or member services in a non-profit of some kind. Some parts are a bit more data entry than you may want but depending on the level there’s a lot of communication with the outside/customer service aspects of the job.

      1. Development professional*

        YES! Look for titles like “Development Associate” or “Membership Coordinator” stuff like that. You almost never see the words “donor” or “fundraising” in non-profit fundraising titles but that’s what they are. And if you’re squeamish about the idea of asking for money, you should know that many of these jobs don’t actually require you to do that, especially at the entry level.

    6. Celeste*

      Flight attendant. Hairdresser/barber. Realtor. Photographer. Sales. Bar tender. Wedding coordinator. Travel agent.

    7. Natalie*

      I’m not sure what the generic title is, but account reps. Like, we have a national account with a supply house and there is one person at the company that we route all of our problems through.

    8. TCO*

      Have you considered tech support? First-tier support is very, very dependent on providing good customer service.

    9. Paige Turner*

      Hair salon receptionist was my favorite job (free haircuts and a more “professional” set of duties than standard retail). If you have any particular hobbies/interests, you might find jobs related to that where you’d enjoy the work more and have more knowledge that could help you get hired- for example, if you like dogs, try a vet office, dog-walking company, groomer, pet store, etc.

    14. Noelle*

      Constituent services in government. Contact your local congressman or senator (in the U.S., in other countries this obviously would be a bit different) or other local government agency. There are tons of jobs where you work with people who have problems with government (the IRS messed up my taxes, how do I file for benefits, etc. etc.) and you help them out. I’ve gotten to do it a little bit in my job and it can be very rewarding.

    15. Nanc*

      Parks and Recreation! Everything from city recreation departments to national parks, historic sites, etc. Or tour guides. A friend worked her way through college as a tour guide at the Winchester Mystery House and she was an awesome tour guide! The heat wasn’t great in most parts of the building so for winter I helped her sew a ton of ruffles on a pair of thermal underwear bottoms so when she lifted her skirt to climb the stairs she still looked like she was in period costume.

    16. Ethan Messere*

      Event management. An entry level position will probably have lots of interface with customers.

    17. Mallory Janis Ian*

      What a timely question! I’ve just been considering it myself. I’m an administrative assistant, and I’ve realized that what I’ve most loved about my job is the interactions with people.

      I’ve enjoyed the direct one-on-one interaction of being the assistant for one boss, maintaining his* calendar, arranging his travel, editing his writing (or writing for him), being the person who he bounces ideas around with and being able to offer insights that he perhaps hasn’t considered. I feel valuable when doing this sort of work, and I’ve received good feedback and high praise for this part of my work. I’ve also received high praise for my work supporting the faculty (willingness to help, providing a buffer between them and the fact that we worked for a large bureaucracy, understanding what they were working on and being able to provide relevant support).

      However, I’ve been called out by coworkers at my level for not being the fastest or best at the routine paper-pushing type stuff, which is a weakness of mine — I tend to procrastinate it and then do a furious catch-up session when I can’t stand it any longer. I know that is irritating for my coworkers, and I do my best to manage myself in that regard, but it doesn’t come naturally and I have to be strict with myself to keep it from getting out of hand. My past two bosses acknowledged that this was a weakness of mine, but they valued my other contributions enough that they considered it minor. My most recent past bosses responded by rearranging my more routine tasks onto someone a little lower on the hierarchy (with me overseeing rather than doing) and giving me more of the exciting stuff — which was great for me, although I realize probably annoying for [some of] my coworkers. One coworker, in fact, complained to my bosses about it, and they told her that rearranging my workload was worth it to them because of the value I provided in other areas that they considered more important. The coworker who complained actually came back to me and told me this herself; she said, “Man, they sure do love you; they’ll do anything to make you happy.”

      Anyway, the purpose of the above is not to brag. I just wonder how to go about purposely seeking out jobs that are more like that? I’ve been wonder if executive assisting would be more what I’m looking for? Are there jobs with regular daytime, M – F hours, relatively good pay, and benefits (not like retail) but with more of a people/customer service focus? I’m trying to find something that requires more from my areas of strength and less from my areas of weakness.

      *I’m using “he” because my past two bosses where this has been the working relationship have been men; I don’t care if it’s a man or a woman, as long as the working relationship is good.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Sorry — I didn’t realize this would be so long! I’ve been brooding over this question for awhile, and I just poured it all out in a single post!

      2. Guten Tag!*

        Yes to all of the above! I am in the exact same situation of working in an office but not getting as much of the customer service angle as I’d like! That’s why I made this brainstorming post, because I was a job with a greater focus on customer service. Glad I’m not the only one! :)

      3. Alexis*

        The executive assistant positions I’ve seen involve a lot of the work you mention enjoying. Those are probably the most regular M-F position I know of in that vein.

        1. Mallory Janis Ian*

          One of my friends went from administrative assisting to executive assisting, and she says that the pace and quality of the work she gets is much more satisfying. She said she couldn’t believe she was actually getting paid substantially *more* for what seemed like so much *less* work. For her, it was moving from supporting a dean in an academic unit to supporting a development officer in the upper administration, but she said that it was such a relief to be rid of the paper-pushing, academic-cycle-driven parts of her previous job. I would love to find a job about which I felt the same as she does about hers.

    18. Felicia*

      Member services in a member based professional association – only half of what I do, but it’s what you’re describing. Basically big professions have professional associations, and you’d be dealing with member concerns and information.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Oooh, that sounds like a good one! I’ll have to check into it. I seem to have fallen in with architects and designers in my administrative career (8 years as assistant to a university department head, then on to his private design firm as his assistant / office manager). All my LinkedIn contacts are in the design professions, so I bet I could smoothly make the change to one of the design-related professional organizations, where I’d already know a ton of people on the member side.

        1. Felicia*

          That is a good idea! I work for a professional organization for a certain health professional and now that I work at one, it will be likely i will have an easier time working at teh others. Architects and designers definitely have a professional association! There is generally one per province (or one per state if you’re American), so you usually find them around the capitals of provinces/states.

    19. Karen (another fed)*

      I work in customer service/customer experience design/improvement. It’s a thing. I got involved by asking LOTS of questions about my company. Your access to that sort of team may depend somewhat on where you live/if anything is HQ’d nearby. (I work at the agency headquarters of a small, specialized government agency.) Private sector brands have it – which is what my team is modeled after.

      1. Alexis*

        Seconding this. If you’re near a city there are bound to be companies looking for Customer Service/Support/Success agents. If you’re at all good with computers (as in, can effectively Google things and answer emails) there are lots of young tech companies with teams that are actively involved with helping customers and getting feedback. Smaller companies don’t use call centers, and some let you work remotely. Of course, the hours can be annoying depending on how much you value your nights/weekends.

    20. Afiendishthingy*

      My first job after college was as a Visitor Assistant at a children’s museum. Definitely my best customer service job! Basically got paid to play with kids, and the percentage of rude customers was MUCH lower than my other customer service jobs (food service and an inbound call center).

  7. Job-Hunt Newbie*

    Hi all,

    As you can see from my username, I am a newbie to all of this. I am graduating in a month with my Masters degree. I’ve worked my behind off in college, and managed to get a lot of experiences and skills that make me marketable in the field I’m looking to enter. I’ve been putting in applications for around five months now.

    Now, everything seems to be drying up. One timeline said a decision would be sent out a while back, and I haven’t heard anything. The other two I haven’t heard from in over a month, and it’s getting to the end of the timeline I was given; I am at the point where I may have been offered an on-site interview. I’m still holding out hope that I will hear back on time, but I’m not sure if that will happen.

    I’m getting rejection letters (one over 4 months after applying and hearing nothing to tell me the position was filled). I’m getting so burnt out from putting in applications, doing phone screens, and writing cover letter after cover letter with nothing to show for it. I’m terrified I won’t have a job come graduation. My anxiety has been through the roof lately, and I can’t sleep because of the constant heart palpitations and worry. I recently broke down at work; I had one of those Kim Kardashian cries at my desk.

    How do you stay positive and motivated during this process? I know I am in the same boat as thousands of other grads, but the stress of this process is really taking a toll on me. I almost want to stop trying and take a year off, try to get a part time job, and travel or something. But student loans don’t let you take a break like that.

    I have four job postings in front of me to apply for today. The prospect is making me want to throw up, cry, and take a four hour nap from exhaustion because I am so burnt out from all of this. I should be excited and happy for the prospect of finally being done with school (for now), but instead I feel like an anxious ball of emotions, and terrified of graduating and being jobless.

    1. Dawn*

      Have you sought counseling for how you feel? This sounds like a severe state of anxiety beyond what we’re able to help with here in this comment thread. Your school should have some resources for you so you can talk to someone and work through your feelings- please, seek them out and talk!

      How you feel is normal- having anxiety about this process is normal- and getting help with it will let you get beyond the stuck feeling you’re at now and move you towards progressing in your life goals. If you feel burnt out and like crying at the prospect of doing a job application, that’s severe stress and anxiety that’s negatively impacting your life, so please seek help for working through it!

      1. TCO*

        Agreed. What you’re experiencing from companies (long delays, not hearing back) is pretty normal, but that doesn’t make it easy. The stress you’re experiencing is not “normal” and you don’t have to feel this anxious. A few sessions with the right school counselor could help you feel much lighter and less weighed-down.

      2. Job-Hunt Newbie*

        I have in the past; I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder as a teen, and was eventually able to manage my symptoms without medication. I think given the fact that this is a major life change I am about to experience with no security in sight is making it more difficult to handle than the other crises I’ve been able to work through. Transitioning into the “adult” world is scary when there’s no plan in place! It also is scary when you don’t seem to be getting any good news regarding your transition.

        After yesterday’s Kim Kardashian ugly cry episode, I was definitely considering going back to my old therapist and seeing about getting on some anxiety medicine short-term; just need to see if my insurance can be taken there.

        1. TCO*

          It sounds like you already know therapy can be helpful during big life changes, which is great. Sometimes I’ve felt like a “failure” when I need to return to therapy after some time off, but that’s just untrue self-talk. It’s perfectly natural to want to revisit some of that coaching and support during such a major transition that’s unlike anything you’ve gone through before. Good luck!

        2. Anx*

          Therapy helped me with long-term unemployment, but not completely. I still have a lot of anxiety that no amount of CBT can overcome.

          This may be a controversial opinion, but I think my depression and anxiety symptoms were actually a pretty normal response to being chronically broke, with some student loan debt, and knowing the only reason I didn’t have more was that grandfather sold his business to help my brother, sister, and I go to college. I think I’d rather have more student debt that to feel the burden of making his sacrifice work it.

          So while I didn’t think there was anything abnormal about being super stressed about maintaining food and housing and eventually getting a professional job, those emotions weren’t helpful and were an obstacle.

          I still struggle with this. I graduated in 2008 and am still doing part-time work when I can find it, but therapy has helped a lot.

          1. Afiendishthingy*

            I agree completely. I work in a field that pays employees who don’t have an advanced degree and professional certification very badly, and the experience you get from those (often rewarding but very stressful and challenging) dues-paying jobs is also essential to moving up to the higher positions. So I made $22k for a long time, in a part of the country where that is really, really not enough. I have generalized anxiety disorder, and yes, therapy and medication help, but no amount was going to keep me from feeling anxious about whether the landlord was going to deposit my rent check before pay day.

            I finished my masters a year ago and my anxiety was out of control while I was job searching. Imposter syndrome and money problems (and history of anxiety) are an awesome combo!

            I got a decent job though, and financial concerns are greatly reduced. Still struggling with anxiety related to adjusting to the new job- my therapist diagnosed it as “growing pains” and said “you’re so vulnerable at the beginning of your career, you’re like an open wound.” But it’s getting better! I would definitely look at going back to therapy and possibly meds if appropriate, but also recognize it’s situational and will pass. I’ll pray for you, if you don’t mind that sort of thing, and send out virtual hugs if you do :)

            1. Anx*

              Yes. It’s situational, but a very long situation (the better part of a decade).

              It is actually incredibly helpful to hear others acknowledge that therapy and positivity aren’t going to eliminate stress and pressure, especially one so much of it is external. It has already gotten much better.

              Sidenote:
              There were moments that therapy made things worse. So much of the literature I was given included examples of people who were happily married and had good jobs and still weren’t happy. I know it’s very important to let people know that it’s okay to have things work out and still not be happy, but it was a little alienating when so many of my symptoms were tied to my unemployment. Fortunately the actual sessions were much more focused on my particular situation.

    2. Christian Troy*

      My experience is not so different than yours, sort of. But I think you have to be prepared in this market that your job hunt may take significantly longer than anticipated. Your anxiety seems pretty bad right now so I second the recommendation of speaking to a professional or finding other outlets for you to channel your energy.

    3. Paige Turner*

      Yeah, I feel the same way (unfortunately, I’m a few years out of grad school). I do have some advice though- 1) you CAN put your loans on hold or lower your payments if you’re unemployed or low-income. It might not be the best financial choice longterm, but putting my loans on hold when I got laid off really helped with some of the “Am I going to starve???” panic. 2) You’re not the only one trying to find a job in a tough market. Working retail or part-time is a good way to have a little money coming in and to get out of the house and interact with people. Getting a part-time retail job while job hunting is totally normal. 3) People always tell me to volunteer and network, which is generally good advice, but if you’re super stressed and overwhelmed (like me), that can feel hard to do. Spend time with friends and hobbies- don’t cut yourself off and do nothing but job hunt and worry. Do something you enjoy- read a book, sports, whatever- regularly. I know it’s easier said than done- good luck.

      1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

        Deferment is scary, since some of my very high-interest federal loans are unsubbed (so glad I don’t have private..), and I’ve been making payments early since August to help bring those interest rates down. I’m not opposed to it, but hoping to avoid it!

        Thank you so much for you advice. I really need to remember to take time for myself and do stuff I enjoy. Already tough enough to find “me” time between work, grad school, and job hunting!

        2. Natalie*

          It is scary, but getting remember that your anxiety response isn’t actually helping with the fear. You’re not a bunny hiding from a fox. :)

          In another comment, you mentioned that during your last treatment experience you developed some skills to manage your anxiety without drugs. I wonder – how much of that coping is based around planning ahead? Have you developed any skills for managing your anxiety in the moment, when you either couldn’t have planned ahead or that plan failed? If so, those are the coping skills you want to draw on now.

          If not, I think that would be a good thing to develop. I know it can seem pointless when you feel like you have your anxiety under control, and of course wading back into the experience to develop the coping skills is SO SHITTY. But I will tell you – I had developed similar planning-oriented coping skills and thought I really had my anxiety under control. Until I didn’t, and I had some panic attacks, and it was the worst. I had to go back to square one and unlearn my desire to plan everything.

          1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

            A huge chunk is definitely about planning ahead; it’s why I started applying to jobs early. I’m big on having plans in place (like my huge grad project; it’s been in the works over a year; when it only needed to be thought up six months ago; its gone through countless revisions and not gone as planned at some points. But having a basic framework has helped me not get too overwhelmed when something goes wrong), because I hate leaving stuff off until the last minute.

            I think my biggest issue is I need to remember I’ll be okay, and this is something I ultimately can’t plan for. People around me are getting great news about their job searches, and some are getting job offers, and I feel like I’m not going to be that lucky. But my family is behind me 100% no matter what happens, I have more than enough saved to make my loan payments if I’m unemployed for over half a year, and at the end of the day, I’ll still have my two degrees. I’m at the mercy of the search committees, and I can only plan so much for this.

            Thank you so much for your advice and kind words. It is so appreciated!

    4. L*

      Hang in there! I (as well as countless other people) have been in this exact same boat. It’s an awful feeling, but you have to keep telling yourself that if you don’t apply to the four jobs in front of you, then you’re eliminating the possibility that you’ll get any of them, and then you’ll have to go through this stressful cycle again.

      What has worked for me to stay sane and to fight the anxiety: exercising every day, eating healthy, listening to old episodes of This American Life, going to therapy, volunteering.

      Best of luck to you!

      1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

        Thank you! I already have the staying active and eating well part down, as well as some volunteering. I haven’t seen This American Life, but I think I need to check it out!

    5. Development professional*

      Take a day off! Seriously. Just one day, but don’t think about or look at job applications at all whatsoever. And use the time instead to do something you really like.

      Also, now that you’re closer to graduation, you actually might find that things will pick up because you’re going to be available soon and pretty much everyone wants to fill vacancies “immediately” even if they’re slow moving on their end. Four or five months ago you could have easily been passed over because you weren’t available for another six months and that wasn’t going to work. Not so now.

    6. CheeryO*

      I’m sure you will get a lot of great advice, but I just want to say that it is NOT the end of the world if you are unemployed come graduation time (as long as you’re alright financially, of course). I graduated with my Master’s about a year and a half ago, and I was jobless for six months after graduation. (And that was just a stopgap – it was another six months until I got a job in my field.) I had a great GPA and several internships, and it still took a long time for the right opportunity to come up. No one judged me for it; it’s just of the world these days.

      Please (and I know this is WAY easier said than done) try to relax a bit and just take things day by day. You’re putting a lot of pressure on yourself right now. Maybe take a break for a couple days, or a week if application deadlines allow it, and just try to recharge a little.

    7. Stephanie*

      Try to stay positive, take time for yourself and it’s ok to take a day off from applying. I’ve been job searching and interviewing for 9 months. Never in my wildest dreams did I think it would take this long to find a job with a decade of experience. I have picked up a part time job in retail to get me out of the house and interacting with others. Wishing you the best!

    8. Nanc*

      Have you thought about temping? Temping will give you some income while you are looking for a job that’s a good fit and will get you out in a professional environment giving you a chance to learn some workplace skills. I temped after my BA and my MA and initially took all the short term jobs–they’re harder to fill because most folks are looking for a long term or a temp to perm position. I had my last-before-this job as a long-term temp assignment and they ultimately hired me full time. If you sign up with a national agency your record will follow you if you change locations. And the agency reps can be great references. There are also agencies that specialize in certain fields so do a bit of research and see if there’s one near you. At the very least, if you have good basic computer skills you can probably get placed in admin/support jobs which will give you some income while you keep looking.

      Good luck and keep us posted!

      1. Alexis*

        This. I’m temping now between jobs, and did when I first graduated as well (with a BA). I hadn’t really considered it an option until a friend told me he got his job via temping. It’s keeping me busy and I feel more sane than I did sitting around sending apps into the void and fretting. Additionally, if you’re anything like me, anxiety grows with fear of the unknown. Making a worst-case scenario plan helped (making a spreadsheet for a 0-income budget, seeing where I could minimize costs, etc.).

        I also wouldn’t discount the idea of taking time off. If you can set up a personal project (whether it’s writing, art, teaching yourself to code, whatever) to do during your time off, it may even help with your job search later on. Unless you’re going into a super-lucrative career right off the bat, it’s gonna take 10+ years to pay off loans anyway. Adding one more year in exchange for priceless experience isn’t a bad trade, especially if you do so cheaply.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Please take time each day to do something for your physical well-being. I know, it’s not the question you asked. Stress like yours depletes our bodies of vitamins and minerals at an incredibly fast pace. Lacking vitamins and minerals, all kinds of stuff happens- shakes, panic attacks, dizziness and so on. Keep it simple keep, keep it doable. Decide to increase your water intake. Or decide you will eat a salad once a day. Or decide to meditate. Put something back into you. You are doing all these things that are just zapping you, heck, it would exhaust anyone! Decide not to let yourself drain, and drain and drain. What simple thing can you do today to fortify yourself? (Don’t answer here. It’s just a question for mulling.)

    10. themmases*

      Can you talk to your boss or faculty you trust and see if they can help or at least offer advice?

      My experience in grad school has been that almost all of us make assumptions about how things work or what kind of help is available that are often way off base. It makes sense– we are at our school for a limited time and often not experiencing this whole backstage world of the permanent staff who actually get things done. There is a lot of pressure as a grad student to come prepared and figure things out for yourself, and I think we miss out on help that would have been available had we just asked.

      Your boss and your advisor probably want to help you. They’ve invested a lot of time and effort in you, and anyway it reflects well on them when you succeed. You never know who or what they may know about that would open doors for you.

    11. Stitch*

      I so feel you… I graduated in December, which is awkward because no one’s hiring. Best I can hope for is a job starting in the summer, but it probably won’t really be in my field because it has strict recruiting timelines (they interview people in September/October for positions starting the following May.) I may have to wait another year and a half before I find a role in my field.

      But I’ve been trying. I’ve made it through ever more stressful phone interviews, and promising in-person interviews, that all turn out to be nothing. But even with the anxiety caused by everything, I’ve found having different paths and options that I’m pursuing decreases my fear tremendously.

      For instance: While I was waiting back to hear whether I had an offer or not from one place, I was in the phone-interview rounds with another. The first place has rejected me, but now I’m focusing on applying to non-profit positions in the hopes their timelines will be less stringent. I try applying to different cities where I have extended family. I try to always make sure I have multiple options open and worth pursuing. If I’m ever in a place where it looks like I’m dependent on one company’s yes or no, I get really stressed. With more than one option, I just funnel my thoughts into the jobs that haven’t said no yet.

    12. There are smarter ways to find a job once you've graduated!*

      Job-Hunt Newbie,

      I’ve been helping new grads find jobs for a few years now, so let me suggest a few things that have made a huge difference for my mentees\ (one also suffering from huge anxiety from lack of response after applying to hundreds of jobs).

      1) Go out during the weekend to a part of the city that you live where there are lots of commercial buildings. Walk around and take note of any company names that may sound like they hire for the type of job you do.

      2) Go to LinkedIn to find out more about these companies. See if they have any openings listed in LinkedIn, indeed.com, or their own website, so you can apply to those openings.

      3) Find out about local meetings (using meetup.com, finding professional organizations in your city, etc.), and try to go to a few of them (you should be able to find some free events to attend — professional talks, etc.). Make a point to, each time you attend, to meet 1-3 people — once you’ve done that, you’re free to go (that should help keep anxiety at a minimum). Spread the word that you are graduating and looking for a job — many of these events even have a time for recruiters to announce the openings they have, so make sure you bring copies of your resume with you in case that happens.

      It may seem strange in these days of Internet that offline activities (walking around the neighborhood, going to in-person events) can help you find jobs, but trust me, my mentees saw a huge difference in the number of phone calls they got after starting to use these strategies. They learned that you can find much less competitive job openings this way (smaller, less known firms that don’t get tons of resumes every time they advertise online, and contacts who may be asked by friends if they know someone for a new opening and who will be happy to connect you with the hiring manager).

      These activities will help you find the “hidden job market”, the less visible job openings that are out there and people are trying to fill through word of mouth (or are posted on the company’s website but nobody sees it because it’s not a famous brand). This will put you way ahead of the other new grads who are only searching online and applying to the same jobs as thousand of others candidates. The mentees to whom I recommended these strategies all saw a huge difference. Out of 5 people, only one is still unemployed, but that’s because he chose not to take a job in technical support that a small business owner offered him after he got the company’s name walking around his neighborhood (he’s volunteering with a professional organization and expanding his network there to find a job with a different title).

      Good luck!

      1. Welcome Wagon*

        ^^This is fantastic advice. The job hunt process can be overwhelming, and those feelings are compounded exponentially if you struggle with anxiety or have difficulty cruising along without a plan or a paycheck. This method of targeted networking is effective and worked for me when I was at a loss for what to do. I’m not a new grad; rather, I’ve been in the workforce 9 years but transitioned industries and careers 2 years ago. For personal reasons, I relocated across the country to a new city where I had no connections (and no job lined up) just 1 year ago. Rebuilding my professional network was key but networking seemed so daunting and ambiguous, especially in a city where I knew NO ONE. This targeted approach was perfect. It made the process manageable, and networking is how I secured the best position I’ve ever had in my career. Best of luck to you, Job-Hunt Newbie.

  8. matcha123*

    I have a question about “leadership.”
    It seems like a common interview question and something that we should
    be highlighting in our cover letters. But what if you have no aptitude for leadership?

    I’ve thought for a while that “leadership” is less about leading and advising and more
    about having a crew of people to back up your knowledge, ideas and skills. If you don’t
    have back up, you can’t lead…because there’s no one there to trust and go along with
    what you say.

    Of course there are some people with the ability to pull people to them and guide them,
    but I would venture that those people are in the minority.
    So, how can someone with no apparent leadership ability talk about leadership?
    If you ask such a question, what kind of answer are you looking for?

    1. fposte*

      Is it that common in interviews? It might be without my knowing, but I haven’t heard much about it. When I’ve asked about it, I don’t generally use that word, though I guess it is some of what I’m looking for. I’m asking about initiative, the ability to work with people to complete projects, the ability to supervise people who are peers and sometimes older and more experienced. It doesn’t to me mean you lead every single group of people and every single situation.

      I don’t think it’s hugely rare, at least at the level I’m talking about. I’m not funding an Antarctic expedition, I’m hiring people to do academic support. It’s possible that even that level of authority isn’t something that suits you, at least right now, but I also think you might be considering the bar to be a lot higher than it really is.

    2. Dr. Doll*

      Depends upon the level of the position. In a lower level position, I would be looking for “leadership” to be operationalized in terms of pulling your weight, being judicious, taking initiative as fposte suggests, not being shy to speak up with good ideas or respectful constructive criticism, volunteering to do things and then DOING them, looking for ways we can get better and taking those ideas to the right person.

      In a higher level position, I’m looking for all of the above plus tons of self-awareness, emotional intelligence, ability to wait rather than to react, along with the ability to make a decision and follow through, communication skills, listening skills… I could go on here for quite a long time.

      If you’re asked about “leadership” a lot, educate yourself about the concept, decide what applies to you, and then formulate some thoughts on specific behaviors or skills that you have, that operationalize aspects of the concept.

      Leadership skills can indeed be learned; you don’t need natural ability to develop some good skills. You might need natural ability PLUS skill development if you want to be a really prominent leader in your organization (kind of like Michael Jordan had to practice!) but you can do a lot with attentive thought and practice.

    3. Nachos Bell Grande*

      You can display leadership by being a good influence on your peers, vocally supporting management decisions and company goals, stuff like that. You don’t necessarily need to have people behind you, or direct reports, or an official mentorship – you can lead by being seen as influential.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. You can lead by having innovative ideas. You can also lead by being the go-to troubleshooter for the group. You might find yourself made into an informal leader because you are the person that gets things done, so people come to you. Lastly, you can become a leader because you simply listen to what people say and respond in an appropriate manner. There are so. many. people who can. not. do. this.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      When I think about leadership, I’m looking, basically, for people who bring a strong sense of vision and personal responsibility for everything they do. When an opportunity arises, do they wait for someone else to decide what to do, or do they seek out ways to maximize it? When something goes wrong, do they do the bare minimum to fix the problem, or do they seek a solution that addresses the root cause? When working with others, do they rely on hierarchy and directives, or do they really seek out ways to find common ground and interest?

      I manage administrative support staff, so I’m hiring for and coaching people who have no direct authority over others, and have roles that are in large part responsive. That makes the idea of “leadership” hard for them to grasp sometimes, but it always applies. Basically, do you try to have a personal impact on your work, and leave it better than you found it, or are you just executing as asked?

    5. matcha123*

      Thanks for the replies :)

      I’ve been asked, “Can you give an example of a time where you demonstrated leadership?” and while I have one or two stories I try to use, one is from my time in university and another is from about four years ago. Neither of them are all that inspiring. But maybe I’m selling myself short.

      Based your replies, I think I have a lot more to pull from! Thanks!

    6. Merely*

      Ooh, thank you for this. I have absolutely no interest in and no aptitude for managing others, and I thought that meant I’d always be BSing these leadership interview questions. It was nice to see in the replies that leader is not necessarily equivalent to manager.

  9. Newbie Annonie*

    Time to play ‘Is This A Real Job’!

    I really enjoy working events. I enjoy setting up and assisting people at the event and ensuring that things run smoothly. However I wouldn’t want to be the person in charge, the main event planner.

    Is there such a job in the event planning industry that doesn’t require you to be the boss?

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I don’t see why not. Most event planners need an assistant– someone to make sure things run smoothly, small details are addressed, etc., especially when all kinds of things go wonky.

      For what it’s worth, I believe– and I’ve said here a few times– that people who are content where they are can be worth their weight in gold. There is so much value in people enjoying what they do (or being good at it or happy to do it, even if they don’t enjoy it) without wanting to get to the next level. Someone who is reliable, dependable, and competent, AND satisfied in his/her role for a very long time? I would do whatever I could to make that person feel happy and appreciated.

    3. HigherEd Admin*

      Absolutely. You can be part of an events team, you can be part of the on-site support staff, etc. A lot of these types of jobs would be found at universities, conference centers, hotels, etc.

    5. reader*

      Of course, for really big events there’s the one person in charge and tons of people beneath them doing exactly what you described.

    6. Sarah Nicole*

      What about corporate event planning? Those departments often have one person who is really “in charge,” but several other people who are involved in running the events, and some companies do a ton of events throughout the year. Also, I’ve seen executive assistants do this type of things a lot. If you found a position with a decent amount of event coordination, would you mind the other side of supporting an executive? It could be close to the same thing with some of the tasks, like calendar coordination, travel planning, and such. Just a thought. Good luck in finding your job!

    7. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      When I worked as a banquet bartender there was the big boss, and then several other smaller bosses scattered around, one in charge of bars, one in charge of the dining room, another general liaison to act as back up/cover more ground. So there are certainly those kinds of support positions out there- though I don’t know how much they have to participate in the planning

    8. Development professional*

      There are tons of jobs like this. And not just in event planning firms. For some non-profits, this is also a big part of fundraising (“development”) jobs. Look for titles like Special Events Assistant. Or even Development Assistant and see how many of the responsibilities are event-related. For some, it’s close to zero, but for others it can be like 3/4.

    9. Traveler*

      In organizations large enough or that have emphasis on events, there is a Director, and under the director a coordinator for events. The coordinator does a lot of the logistics and is in charge of quite a bit behind the scenes, but the director is the “main event planner”. Just be sure when you start look though, as these terms get used interchangeably at times.

    11. madge*

      Absolutely! Are you near a college? At my university (~13,000 employees, in Midwestern US town, if that helps), we have event coordinators and event assistants. A study of all roles was recently done to ensure that our job titles/pay range (which tends to have about a $15k range) match our peer institutions, FWIW.

      For us, event coordinators average $40k and while they do make some decisions and do most of the planning, they still report to a director, who makes final decisions. Event assistants average $27k and do very little, if any, planning but take care of nametags, invitation creation/mailing, on-site assistance, etc. Corporate jobs in our area tend to pay more than we do, but we have better benefits and much more generous vacation/sick leave packages.

      Hope this helps!

    12. Sunflower*

      I’m an event/meeting planner!! It really depends if you’re willing to do the background work also. You’d be hard pressed to find a full-time job that is simply helping out with events in that capacity- except at a hotel but the pay is extremely low and you’d mostly be doing set-up/tear down or serving the food. Full-time jobs are going to have other components depending on the org.

      Events can range anywhere from 4 people to 400,000 people so your level of experience and pay really depend on the type of events you’re doing. I run educational meetings and conferences (anywhere from 3-200 people). I am the main planner and I handle all the logistics and actual management of the event but I do have a boss who has to approve a good amount of stuff I do. I’m salaried, non-exempt and while my pay sucks(as does my company), it’s certainly well above minimum wage.

      For social events, many planners require assistants (but these might be part time if you’re only required to work during the actual event). Corporate will pay a little more but usually corporate event planners do a lot more of the background work and depending on the org, it can be tied in with marketing or sales. Working in a hotel, the sales and catering office has a coordinator that assists the managers with lots of things. Often times they are doing the majority of the work and the managers are just signing off on it.

      I second the suggestion of a college. There are tons and tons of jobs at colleges that require you to help out with events but you most certainly aren’t the manager. Going through UPenn job listings, most of their coordinator positions require you to help out with events within the department.

    13. HR Shenanigans*

      Absolutely. Look into jobs in catering in a position called “Pantry” or as a “Butler” – it entails much of what you’re describing.

    14. Anna*

      There are. You might be an event coordinator, or community relations coordinator, or any other job that includes the word “coordinator”. You might be in charge on the ground, but the details are decided by someone else. I used to be the coordinator person and now I’m the planner person. Being in charge on the ground means you’re finding the volunteers and helping set up, but you’re not making the big decisions or deciding on the theme or anything like that.

    15. Felicia*

      Lots. They are particularly common in big non profits – often schools or hospitals have them too. Usually they are called Events Assistance or something like that – that would usually be the first job for the person who ends up “in charge” too.

  10. Katie the Fed*

    OK, I promised I’d post about my strange new person.

    I mentioned him last week, and in the meantime I’ve sat down with him and giving him very clear guidance and a way forward. But he’s just so…strange. Like, he seems baffled by the basics of pretty much everything – what issues to bring to a manager, what to look up on your own, what to ask a colleague about. When we finish talking he just stands there until I’m like “ok, that’s all – thank you.” and sometimes he’ll KEEP standing there until I say “ok, I need to get back to work so you should go back to your desk”

    Add to this that he’s super formal about everything. I asked him about his previous projects and his answer sounded like a very rehearsed job interview response, like “I’ve done X and I’m really looking forward to applying it to Y” but I only asked what kinds of projects he’d worked on before. And he still always includes this “I just want to let you know how excited I am to be here.”

    His emails are equally formal. They all start with a “Dear Sir or Madam” and end with a “thank you for your attention to this matter” even when there’s no matter at hand really.

    Everything out of him is so stilted and formal – I find him really difficult to talk to. Whenever he talks it feels very canned and insincere.

    I’m not sure, but I suspect he might be a cyborg.

        1. cuppa*

          So, wait, if he e-mails you, does he say “Dear Sir or Madam”? Like, he knows who he’s emailing and what gender you are? Wow.

        2. Ama*

          Wow. I could maybe see him doing it for the first week or so, but it’s a little concerning that he’s not picking up on the workplace conventions on his own.

          Could he just be really nervous? At my current job I spent months terrified that I was do something that would cause them to fire me (I had some bad job PTSD from an old workplace where I was repeatedly blindsided by criticism after being assured I was doing great). It’s an odd way of expressing it, but maybe he’s afraid to loosen up without an explicit instruction to do so.

          1. CheeryO*

            This was my thought as well. I’m naturally a little uptight, especially when I’m nervous, and it takes me a long time to warm up to new jobs (like, months). I can pick up on the fact that I’m being weird, but I can’t stop the weirdly stiff/stilted things from coming out of my mouth. Once I get to know my coworkers and the job duties, it gets better. Slowly.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        No he actually addresses those to my first name now after I told him to stop calling me “Ma’am”

      2. OfficePrincess*

        I’m all for respecting people’s pronouns, but buddy, this isn’t the way to go about it!

    5. AndersonDarling*

      The formalness and oddness may dissipate as he has more interactions. If possible, I’d invite him to meetings just to observe, or possibly to take notes so he can learn what is and isn’t important. CC him on emails that even remotely involve him so he can see how people communicate in email.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Dang! That was my first guess too–there’s a young veteran I deal with in my job, who does everything about five notches more formally than everybody else does. He’s very nice, just so…formal! :)

    7. LouG*

      Wait, so if he emails just you, he starts his email with “Dear Sir or Madam”? That is just so bizarre.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        No – he stopped calling me ma’am after I told him to call me by my first name. He doesn’t really email me much though – he just lurks around me until I talk to him. He also has no concept of when people are busy or not.

    8. A Jane*

      I’d point out that some of his manners and communication are overly formal and it can be odd or even offputting for the office? Also, maybe he doesn’t have any experience being chill.

    9. Lo*

      Definitely a cyborg.

      I just read your posts from last week on this….good luck with you craziness at work and with this new hire. I think if you can address the issues directly, right when he says them, that will work well. But if you feel better doing it in a more formal setting, take some of the time in those “sit down” meetings he keeps requesting. Either way, both you and he will be better off for it. GOOD LUCK!

    10. Persephone Mulberry*

      I am not a therapist, but I wonder if perhaps he falls on the high-functioning end of the autism spectrum. It kind of sounds like he has developed very specific self protocols for interacting with others and doesn’t know how to deviate from them.

      1. Natalie*

        In a similar vein, I had a co-worker like this who AFAICT had crippling anxiety, exacerbated by some really dysfunctional prior work environments.

      2. Cordelia Naismith*

        I was wondering about this, too. I mean, I don’t want to internet diagnose a stranger, but…the thought occurred. I would try being very specific in my interactions with him — your “Okay, that’s all” interaction is a perfect example. Some autistic people wouldn’t understand that “that’s all” means “we’re done; go back to your desk now” — you have to actually say that last part out loud. Social interaction is a network of unspoken expectations; some autistic students I’ve had in the past tended not to understand these unspoken expectations at all. You have to make them explicit. And even then, they may not understand that just because X is appropriate in Work Situation A (the job interview), that doesn’t mean you need to keep doing it in Work Situation B (day-to-day work life).

        You said you’re giving him very clear guidance; that’s good, and I think that’s all you can do. I mean, he might not be autistic at all, just an odd duck. Either way, clearly articulating your expectations is a good thing. I don’t think you can do anything about the social oddities.

        Or maybe he is a cyborg. Who knows?

      3. Katie the Fed*

        Honestly, the thought had crossed my mind because he has SO much trouble with social cues. I’d be happy to work with it if I could figure out how to.

          2. Katie the Fed*

            I took more time to read those when I got home – I’ll definitely carve out more time to talk to him next week and make sure he’s understanding the directions. I feel like an ass if he’s dealing with this

        2. Myrin*

          How does one go about finding out something like this about a coworker, especially as, as someone said below, he might not even know himself?

          I know in a lot of cases the cause for [behaviour] doesn’t matter as it’s disturbing/scary/inappropriate either way, but I feel like in a case like this it would be relatively easy to accommodate someone once you know the root of what’s going on.

          1. Natalie*

            Eh, I think the diagnosis ends up being a bit of a red flag. If they need accommodation, it’s up to them to decide that and advocate for it, regardless of whatever condition they may have. Otherwise it can so easily end up like the woman who uses a cane who wrote in about her supervisor trying to manage the LW’s disability for her. Well-meaning or not, it’s kind of infantilizing to decide someone else’s level of disability on their behalf.

            It’s also not as helpful as people think, IMO. Many mental health conditions and trauma responses share a handful of symptoms/behaviors.

          2. Ž*

            I am autistic. I think that if a person’s behaviour is scary/creepy you don’t have an obligation to try to troubleshoot it because you need to take care of yourself. I think this person’s behaviour as described seems to not be just weird though, not scary/creepy? If so, I think it is good to look at advice on talking with autistic people like “explain things in literal terms” or just explain yourself clearly and a little bluntly. Whether the person is autistic or not, it’s the best way to get something through to them. And it means that later if you need to talk to a manager you can say what words you tried using and that it didn’t work.

            For example, I used to think that whenever someone arrived you were supposed to greet them. And I thought that arrived meant “came into the room”. So someone would return from the toilet and I would say “Hi name!” and someone would wander out of my sight and then 10 minutes later back into my sight and I would say “Hi name!” and finally a 3 year old pointed out what I was doing “mommy she says hi EVERY TIME i come into the room. every 5 minutes!” Kids are really great about being blunt. and ever since then I only say hi if it’s the first time I’m seeing somebody in a day and sometimes not even then.

            If someone said “okay, when I say “thanks that’s all” and turn away from you, that means I think we’re done with the conversation and if you think we’re probably done too, then you can wander off”, that would probably be the end of me standing around confusedly after the conversation has ended. :) Or if that’s too blunt, switching to say “okay, great, let’s get back to work then” might help clue me in if “thanks *turns away*” wasn’t doing it.

            Also, as an autistic woman, my trouble reading social situations and reading between the lines makes me a lot more vulnerable to be creeped on by other people rather than the other way around. imagine being approached by a stranger and not being able to tell whether they’re going to ask you for directions or assault you. and erring on the ask for directions side because you’ve been told that it’s rude to be unhelpful. If someone’s creeping you out, you don’t have any obligation to try to help them. even if they might be autistic. if someone’s creeping you while maintaining good plausible deniability that takes a lot more social skills than we usually have. it requires being able to successfully guess how other people will read the situation, know how to downplay certain things, know what to do in front of others and what to only do when you two are alone.

        3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          I hate diagnosing people over the internet and as the parent of an Asperger’s son I hate it when people pull out Aspie for anything out of norm but…………..

          The description you’ve given is classic Aspgergers, like, you just described my son, especially in new situations.

          In the case of my son, he’s never going to be less formal but he’s happy to adapt to whatevs when it is laid out for him, clearly. What you get in return is someone who is happy to follow the laid out routine, over and over, executed faithfully every time.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            Thank you. I’ve read about Aspergers but never actually encountered someone with it. Which may or may not be the case with him, but it might help me learn to adjust my approach

        4. Sarah*

          I used to work with someone like this and it was only a problem until I realized that I was the only one who didn’t like saying things like “thanks, I need to get back to work now so you should go.” Once I realized I was the only one uncomfortable I just started saying out loud things I usually assume silently then things got really easy. I think it had the side effect of helping younger staff too who learned faster when things had words instead of silent assumed ques.

      4. Receptionist Without A Cause*

        I second this! Super formal manners and difficulty interpreting social cues says ‘possibly neuro-atypical’ to me. If you don’t have a great grasp on the nuances of personal interaction, it can be hard to know when to be casual and when to be polite so he probably defaults to ‘super-polite’ because it’s the safest option.

      5. Katie*

        Yup, this set off my “on the spectrum” alarm too. I used to work with life skills training for young adults with special needs, many of whom were on the spectrum. His interactions sound similar to a lot of the “hacks” we taught our students in how to interact appropriately in the workplace. Some were not able to read into nuance, so teaching them to generally behave more formally was better than being too informal. Many would often overgeneralize the “rules” they learned (e.g., the fact that you should shake hands with your interviewer does not mean that you should shake hands with coworkers each day you walk in, the script for writing a cover letter varies drastically from emailing a coworker, etc.). We would spend time each morning with them sharing about interactions with coworkers, and talking about common scenarios and appropriate behavior for each.

        These all seem like very simple skills for people who are neurotypical, but can be VERY difficult to understand for someone who needs to learn by rote for each new situation. I had a student who spent an hour per day learning about reading emotions. Many of my students made fantastic employees when under the wing of an accommodating employer, they just needed an initial push in the right direction. It is very disarming for the employer if you don’t know what to look for, however!

        1. Katie the Fed*

          This is helpful, and I feel like an ass for not realizing it. Like I said, the thought crossed my mind but it’s such a strange situation that I wasn’t sure what to do with it

          1. Katie*

            Know that you are not alone in your frustrations :) The hardest part for me was realizing how literal my students often were– it’s tough to keep in mind when your general MO is sarcasm!

        2. Afiendishthingy*

          This is so interesting to me because I have worked a lot with kids (age 3-21) with much lower functioning autism, with a huge range of skills and deficits and complex needs, but the aspergers/high functioning autism end seems even more complex to me. I had a coworker who I suspect was on the spectrum and I’m sure he meant well but he drove me bonkers! He was another paraprofessional in a classroom of kids with autism and it was just not a good fit. He would ask me a question, then talk over me the whole time I was answering, then a ask someone else the same question 2 minutes later. Also when you’re trying to teach social skills to kids with autism it helps to have social skills yourself. Poor dude did not last long. Helping people on the higher functioning end of the spectrum learn job an social skills is a really awesome thing to do but I don’t know if I could handle it- I’m more comfortable with making behavior plans and communication goals for the nonverbal 6 year old who bit me the other day.

          1. Afiendishthingy*

            Some clarification because I am worried this comment sounds like I’m saying “people with high functioning autism are annoying.” I think what I meant was I wouldn’t want to be the one trying to teach the subtle social cues and tips for professional life because it’s such a difficult task. It’s the same reason why people who understand a given subject (say, theoretical physics, or even just their native language) forwards and backwards aren’t necessarily good teachers to beginners in that subject. There’s so much we take for granted that it’s very difficult to teach because we don’t even realize others don’t know. And it’s very easy for someone to be dismissed as weird or rude when they don’t get this stuff, because their disability isn’t readily apparent. Anyway, we don’t know for sure this is the case with Katie’s employee. Regardless I think a playbook is A good idea.

      6. Marzipan*

        I had a similar thought; he sounds to me as though he could possibly be somewhere on the autistic spectrum (or, even if he isn’t, as though adopting the kind of clear language and approach you’d use with someone in that situation could be beneficial).

    11. TCO*

      Have you tried having those kind, direct conversations Alison so often recommends? He doesn’t pick up on social cues, but maybe he could follow some directives: “When you e-mail people here, address them by their first name, not ‘sir’ or ‘ma’am’.” That obviously doesn’t fix the entire issue, but it could eliminate a couple of the most annoying behaviors.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, I think this is a situation where really clear, explicit feedback is going to serve both of you well! Be really clear with him about what TCO says, and also the other stuff too. For example: “I’ve noticed that when we’re done with a meeting, you tend to wait to be explicitly told you can leave. If I say ‘that’s all, that means we’re done and it’s okay to leave. Other people will use that cue too, so I want you to recognize it.”

        1. fposte*

          I don’t see an alternative, though, save for termination. This may just be one of those “doing the Lord’s work” management scenarios.

          4. Not So NewReader*

            Yep. This is it. Only you can decide how much of this you want to do. And only you can tell if it is worthwhile for the company to keep him on. There might be too much remedial work, that you simply cannot provide given your givens. (I worked in human service for years.) There is an expectation that at some point the person will work under their own steam and not need this level of guidance. If they cannot go under their own steam, then the job is not for them.

            Look for some idea that at some point he will meet the level he needs to be on.

          5. JB (not in Houston)*

            Ha! And yes. I’m having to decide whether I want to do that with an intern right now (not the same kind of thing, she just doesn’t seem to get that this is a job), but I haven’t wanted to bother for various reasons. But if I think of it that way, maybe I will. :)

    12. Malissa*

      The guy needs a work playbook. Seriously. He has no idea how to interact at work. But it does sound like he can change if asked.
      I’d give him one thing a week to work on. In no time at all you’ll have his coworkers fooled into thinking he’s human.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yeah I want to carve some more time out for him next week. I really want to give him a chance.

    13. GeekChick603*

      Any possibility he’s on the high-functioning end of autistic and he has these scripted behaviors to help him interact with people?

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I thought about that. I hate to diagnose strangers, but I feel like it might help me understand how to communicate because what I’m doing isn’t working too well. I’ve done the clear and specific feedback but I have to keep it to one issue at a time.

        2. Ellie H.*

          Setting aside diagnosing strangers or self-diagnosing or anything, plenty of advice for talking to or interacting with people on the autism spectrum, or for those people on how to talk to others who aren’t, can be just generally useful for situations with people who aren’t because of the way it emphasizes clarity rather than expecting the other person to read between the lines. For example I’ve used advice about having relationship conversations with someone on the autism spectrum (both applying it to me, like how I can do it better, and to the other person, like how I can explain what I am saying extremely clearly and without expecting the other person to make subtle emotional inferences) and found it very helpful.

    14. Anonicorn*

      Are you sure you didn’t hire Moss from IT Crowd?

      Dear Sir stroke Madam,
      I am writing to inform you of a fire which has broken out at the premises of… No, that’s too formal.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I love that show!!

        My favorite bit ever was the Fredo episode, when they were talking about the Godfather in reference to Jen’s new position, and Roy said, “Isn’t that right, Moss? Fredo…from the film…he was essentially a pimp.”

        And Moss said, “No! He took the ring to Mordor!”

        I had to pause it for something like five minutes because I was laughing so hard.

        1. Anna*

          My favorite is still when Moss told everyone Jen was dead. I’m starting to laugh right now thinking about it.

          1. Career Counselorette*

            My favorite is when he went on the game show.

            “Good morning. That’s a nice tnntnbba.”

            1. Kitchenalia*

              My favourite is the computer controlling the bomb-disposal robot.
              ‘What kind of operating system does it use?’ ‘It’s Vista’
              Moss: ‘We are going to die!’

    15. Disappointed_BorderLine_Autistic*

      As someone who struggles with organic social interactions, and does not pick up on social ques that others find simple/natural, I found this thread hurtful.

      I one time had to take a test that showed all these peoples faces and I was suppose to identify the emotion – I got all but one wrong. I too struggled with being too formal (because I was trying to be nice/polite) and I often find myself standing silently thinking (is it rude to walk away right now? Is this person done?).

      Only through hours, nay days, of study and hard work have I gotten to place where I’m just socially awkward and not socially incomprehensible.

      I can tell you that comments like “he’s a weird” or “I think he’s a cyborg” definitely won’t help this individual and are incredibly insensitive to a sometimes crippling disability (a lack of emotional intelligence makes your life really hard, and it’s not an easily learned subject).

      Definitely do give this individual one small item to work on a week (such as hey don’t be so formal in emails). Perhaps have them sign up for an emotional intelligence class/module if your company has one. Definitely shut down co-workers talking about how weird/cyborgish this co-worker is as that will only further alienate him.

      Focus on the positives this individual brings and understand that they just won’t excel in casual/freeform social settings, but may be fantastic presenters/public speakers.

      It’s weird, because I am totally terrible at organic conversations but I’ve won a ton of public speaking awards and am very good and presenting/teaching.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I’m sorry – I can see how it would come across that way and I apologize. I will say this is entirely new to me – if he actually told me something similar to what you said about how you have trouble with this, I would probably have an easier time with it. Like, if he told me what works best in communicating. Because I’m trying and it’s just really frustrating – this is a job that requires a lot of interaction so it stands out a lot. And he’s still fairly new so I havent’ figured out what he’s good at.

        1. Catherine in Canada*

          Not sure where to put this comment, but here goes.

          Please keep in mind that while your co-worker _may_ have some degree of ASD, he may not know. I’m 57 years old and was diagnosed only last summer (it took a long time in my case to translate “always being out of step” into “a real thing that I maybe can do something about”. )

          My whole life was whack-a-mole, still is to a certain extent. And the thing is, you get into more “trouble” being overly _informal_ than you do being formal, so formal is often the safest course to take. Teasing, joking, even _standing_ in a relaxed manner is very subtle and difficult to do, and easy to get wrong.

          So, please, whack away! (as much as you have time for of course, I never expected anyone to hold my hand, just wished for some patience sometimes.)

          1. Katie the Fed*

            Thanks for your perspective. I feel bad because I didn’t appreciate what he might be dealing with – I was more focused on what I’m dealing with.

            I’m really going to try to carve out some time and give him the lay of the land next week – norms, expectations, informal rules, etc.

        2. thisisit*

          given the stigma and snark around this, why in the world would he be upfront about issues with people he barely knows and doesn’t necessarily trust? of course it would be great if people just discussed these issues, but i can see why they’d keep silent and hope they don’t come across too much like a “cyborg”.

          1. JB (not in Houston)*

            Because it’s better than having your coworkers think you’re just weird? I get the stigma, and I get not wanting to speak up. It’s the same for people who have a mental illness that’s affecting their work. There’s often such a stigma with it that people don’t want to explain.

            But it seems in some cases, the alternative of people not understanding is worse. Maybe it’s just my generation and my part of the world, but the people I know and work with would be a lot more patient with someone who is on the spectrum than somebody who just can’t be bothered learning how to interact with people.

      2. Cordelia Naismith*

        I apologize for the cyborg line in my comment, too. I certainly don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. I’m sorry.

      3. J.B.*

        I’m so sorry, and I’m embarking on this struggle as a parent of a possibly autistic child. Sometimes the kindest people say things quickly especially online. I hope you have great support and wouldn’t mind more tips for myself in the future!

    16. CAA*

      Does he use “Dear Sir or Madam” even when he knows whether the addressee is male or female? That really is weird.

      I usually don’t like diagnosis by Internet, but this does sound a bit like someone I used to work with. Interactions were so stilted, and he took everything so literally that it was painful for everyone else. After we’d been working together for a couple of years, he told me he had autism and so he had been taught the rules for being social and it was hard for him when other people didn’t follow those rules. He liked me because I followed the rules.

      I am not sure what exactly that means about me, but it explained a lot about him.

      1. Nashira*

        Probably that you’re very consistent in your ways of showing emotion and handling certain kinds of interactions. A lot of people… really aren’t consistent, or there’s not really good visual cues as to how they are feeling or why they’re responding certain ways, for those of us who have to learn to read body language and facial expression by rote.

    17. AnonToday*

      Can I just second how much I hate “thank you for your attention to this matter”? It’s so unnecessary. Just say thank you. There is no matter. For God’s sake.

    19. The Toxic Avenger*

      Hi, Katie! I am glad you updated us – I was thinking about you and how this whole situation was playing out.
      Based on what I’ve heard so far:
      – He’s a contractor who is supposed to be making your life easier, but he’s making it way, way harder at a time when you just can’t afford extra work.
      – You’ve asked another team member to pull additional weight of her own to carry him.
      – He still isn’t working independently and requires too much direction, intervention, and instruction from you.

      At this point, would it be easier to let him go, or do you need the help so badly that the pain of finding a replacement would be greater than sticking with him?

      1. Christy*

        +1. Can you request a new contractor? This seems to me to be really the problem of his contracting supervisors, not you.

      2. Katie the Fed*

        I don’t want to cut him loose just yet because I feel like he really MIGHT have something to offer, but I do agree we need to see it soon. I know he’s trying hard, and it’s a tough market out there so if I cut him loose I don’t know that he’d find something right away. I want to give him a chance – a few more weeks at least.

        1. The Toxic Avenger*

          Yes, I hear you. I’ve been in your shoes, for sure. I tend to give people chances until it is crystal clear that it just.isn’t.working. Looking back, sometimes I wish I had called it sooner, but most of the time, I was glad I handled it the way I did because I knew I did everything I could. Hang in there Katie. You sound like an awesome boss to me.

        2. Mockingjay*

          As a contractor myself, it’s my job is to support our Government clients, not vice versa.

          Since he is apparently onsite with you, you might feel obligated to help him out (your threads demonstrate that you are a wonderful, caring manager – I wish you were my “Govie”), but please involve his company manager. The company may have more awareness of the employee’s circumstances than they can legally reveal to the customer, and they can work on his behaviors directly.

          He might be better off supporting at your project at his corporate location, if that has a more structured environment. For instance, he could dial in to a meeting, and it will be clear when it ends. “Okay, Fred, that’s all and we are hanging up now.” There are always options. Bless you for wanting to pursue them!

          1. The Toxic Avenger*

            Yes, this. I understand that you don’t want to show him the door just yet, but if you have not involved the account manager, now’s the time. Thank you for the view from the “other side” Mockingjay!

        3. Graciosa*

          The question in my mind is how well he can succeed in this specific job.

          If there are core duties he performs brilliantly (like something he does on his own in front of a computer?) I’m more inclined to think having to issue very specific instructions in other areas is a manageable quirk.

          If a fair amount of the job involves working with other people in ways that aren’t natural to him, it may not be the right fit for him.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            he’s really new so I don’t know yet. We’re still working on the basics. Other people usually pick this stuff up much faster so I’m not sure how much more time to give him, but I want to make an effort to spend more time with him next week and give him some VERY clear guidance and overview of the norms around here

      2. Katie the Fed*

        I’m sorry. I’m venting a little bit here because I’m frustrated because it feels like we’re speaking completely different languages and I just CANNOT figure out how to communicate with him. I want him to be successful – I could actually tell his company “nope, not working out” but I’m trying to figure out a way to make it work. This is a new one for me, truly.

        1. knitchic79*

          We just had to let someone go because of this sort of thing. She just could not get it. It was a sad mixture of relief (that we didn’t have to carry her weight anymore) and sad (there is no way she is finding anything anytime soon, just way too many issues) when she was gone. I feel for you hun, not a fun place to be.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          You have a rock and a hard place thing going on. If you knew he needed a specific accommodation, I am sure you would stand on your head to try to get him what he needs.

          Without that info, you don’t have a lot of options.
          If you “guess” there is a disability of some sort then you are diagnosing- that’s not good. If you ignore the individual differences in people then you are a heartless boss. This leaves you are walking in that uncharted gray area that is so difficult to navigate.

          This is just a random thought here, do you think that someone would be interested in mentoring him? Is there someone there that he feels comfortable with that he might listen to? This would take some of the load off of you and might be a relief to him if he does not like hearing “stuff” from a boss type person. I have done this and it seemed to go okay. (Notice I say “seemed to go okay”. I was not privy to every thing that went on.) Well, actually what happened was other people got interested in helping the person, too, not just the people I asked.
          The person ended up going to the doctor and receiving a diagnosis. She came into work one day EXTREMELY happy. I said “what’s up?” She said, “I never fit in. I never knew why. NOW, I do! It has a NAME. I know what is wrong and why!” [Yeah, I was blinking back the tears.]

          1. fposte*

            I like that idea. As I indicated, I do think there’s real value, if somebody can take the time to do it, in teaching people things that will enable them to fare better in the workplace in future; it’s just that it can be a hard thing to make time for when it’s not something that’s factored into your workload.

  11. AnonToday*

    I’ve suffered a couple work-related disappointments in the last 24 hours (sorry this is long):

    1) I just found out I didn’t get the job I really, really wanted. I was told I interviewed well but that they wanted someone who was a little more familiar with the business. It’s a totally reasonable response, but I am nonetheless pretty bummed. I have two other things in the works, so hopefully one of them pans out because…

    2) I just found out that one of my biggest programs is going to be canceled due to budget constraints. I suspected this might happen, but am a bit peeved by the delivery of the message. It was announced during a staff meeting, and I wasn’t given a heads-up in advance. I had to hear the news with everyone else. It would have been nice to get some time to process the news first. On top of that, another one of my big programs is probably going to be canceled because of scheduling conflicts. So now I’m not entirely sure what I’m supposed to be working on over the course of the next year. A job that was already filled with downtime is now going to over-saturated with it. I am going to be so bored.

    3) One of the jobs I’m up for is not something I’m entirely sold on taking. It combines something I’m really good at and love doing, with something I’m less enthusiastic about (and was initially trying to get away from). It would be great growth opportunity, though, and would put me in a great position for the types of roles I’m really seeking in 2-3 years’ time. I could really learn a lot, but I might not love everything I do. Do the pros outweigh the cons?

    1. Jennifer*

      How much is your current job likely to be at risk, given the changes that just happened? I might be more up for taking the job you don’t want to do so much if your current one is heading downhill.

      1. AnonToday*

        I am 99.9% sure my job is not at risk. I have other programs and duties that haven’t been (and won’t be) eliminated. Much of my work is seasonal, however — so I’m busy for two months and then have nothing to do for two months and then busy for three months and then not busy for 5 months. Eliminating those two programs increases my “not busy” time. I would prefer to be busy all the time! The potential new role (haven’t received an offer or anything yet) would definitely keep me busy all the time, but not necessarily doing things I want to be doing. (And some of the work is networking with potential clients — which is something that makes me VERY nervous.)

    2. themmases*

      Can you talk to anyone else who holds or has held the jobs you want in the future, or are there visible people in your organization who have your goal job that you could just observe? It might really help you with #3 if you know how they got there and whether their path is typical.

      If the part of your potential job that you dislike is a dues-paying type thing (or at least seen that way in some organizations), you probably have a good chance of doing your time and then relinquishing that task when you move up. Other areas of expertise cling to you and you may move up, but you’ll do so as Director of Teapot R&D who has a great background in Drudgery, rather than as Director of Teapot R&D who has years of experience in Task You’d Do for Free.

      If the new job just involved dues-paying– even potentially a lot of dues-paying– with an industry-standard light at the end of the tunnel, personally I’d take that especially since you sound unhappy at your current job. If it’s the kind of expertise that could stick to you, then it depends more on how much you love Task You’d Do for Free vs. how much you hate Drudgery, your security in your current job, and how rare the offer really is (are comparable jobs with better-for-you duties unicorns?).

    3. Not So NewReader*

      On point number 3. Can you do Not Sold on Taking job for 2-3 years? Some people can do sprints if they know something else is on the horizon.

      What have you seen at this company? One place I worked I would get word that Terrible Job was coming in and I would be in charge of it. Well this happened a few times before I caught on. Terrible Job usually morphed into something manageable by the time we got it flowing. Then after awhile, Terrible Job went away. And in came Horrendous Job and that too managed to work down to nothing as bad as when it started.
      If you have seen patterns like this, then I would chose to stay and ride it out if I had nothing else going on.
      Since you feel that it will put you in a good spot in a short time, I would have to seriously consider doing it.

      1. knitchic79*

        +100 I would so much rather so something I don’t prefer, along with something I enjoy if the alternative is months of boredom. As far as having the scary part of networking…maybe that is a blessing in disguise. I know when I took over managing a larger, more profitable section I was freaking terrified. That I would foul it up, that everyone would figure out what a fraud I was, you know the usual. But really it’s been amazing! It took time but I’m much more relaxed and now it feels natural. I bet you could rock that job!

  12. Pipes*

    This morning, a coworker on another team (she does the same thing I do, just in a different part of the US) pinged me on our company’s IM and told me her manager’s spot was open, and asked me to apply. She thought I would make an awesome manager, based on some work I’ve been asked to take on and present to the entire US teams. I am totally gratified, but not interested in the position. But, should I take this info to my manager as an example for how well these presentations have been received? This is actually the second time in two weeks someone has mentioned management to me (but the first was an offhand, thanks for the info, we think you’d make a great manager, vs the solicitation to actually apply).

    1. CoffeeLover*

      It’s a little awkward to pass this along verbatim because she’s also recommending you for a job. It could come off as if you’re actually considering moving on, which might not be the signal you want to send your manager. Maybe just copy and paste the part of the IM that talks about the presentation and forward that to your manager with a note saying something like, “Jane, just gave me some great feedback about the presentation I did last fall. Just wanted to give you a heads up.” Or something like that :)

      1. CoffeeLover*

        Alternatively, if it’s not something you can copy and paste, you could ask your coworker to send some positive feedback your way. Say something like, “Thank you for passing this along, but I’m not really looking to move into X. I’m really happy to hear you enjoyed the presentation though. If you’re willing, I would appreciate it if you could send a quick message to [Your Manager]. She would like to hear the presentations are being received well.”

        *Also, there shouldn’t be a comma after the “Jane” in my message above.

        1. Pipes*

          Would this advice change if you knew this was a company where internal moves were expected and supported, and my manager already knows I am looking for new opportunities (and is helping out)?

  13. Jaune Desprez*

    Can you tell me how long you’ve been able to wait for the right new employee to start?

    I’m currently interviewing for a job in New City, and they’ve indicated that they hope to make a decision by the end of April. However, I’m still in Old City and wouldn’t be able to start until the end of May. It’s a specialized position that’s been open for some time, and the duties have been temporarily divided among other team members with busy jobs of their own. I have extensive direct experience with the work in question and have been informed that I’m the front-runner for the position. While I’m not placing a whole lot of weight on that assurance, for the sake of this question, please assume that it’s actually the case.

    In your experience, would a one-month wait for Ms. Right deter you from making an offer? How long would the wait have to be before you decided to go with Ms. Right Now?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would always wait for the right person! If you go with the wrong person, you risk needing to find the right person sooner than you expected. Most hiring processes are super slow anyway– a month doesn’t sound that off to me. My current job waited a month for me, and I was in the same city!

    2. The IT Manager*

      I wouldn’t blink at a month’s wait. Givn what you describe it sounds like it can wait an extra two or three weeks for you to relocate esepcially since it’s already been vacant for sometime due to their process.

    3. EmilyG*

      I think this is always going to depend on the quality of the competition–is there another candidate who is almost as strong as you and can start tomorrow?–but if it’s been open for some time that’s probably not the case. Also, I would look at whether the candidate who can’t start right away has a solid and clear reason why (as opposed to a variable succession of postponements and excuses)–but you don’t. So in your case I would definitely wait.

    4. OfficePrincess*

      If they’re at all reasonable, they’re expecting that whoever they choose will need to give two weeks notice. So, at most, you’d be asking for an extra two weeks. But, given the way hiring timelines tend to stretch, you may find yourself only needing an extra week or less.

      I’ve been burned by taking the best available option when I (thought I) needed someone right away. It’s not worth it. I’d gladly wait a week or two to have my first choice!

    6. Lily in NYC*

      My office would be fine with a month. I think we’ve even gone 3 months for a few really good candidates who needed to finish up school or deal with an overseas move.

    7. Joey*

      The higher the position and therefore the harder to fill the longer I’m willing to wait. A month and a half though for an average professional position? If I didn’t know up front? you’d better be pretty outstanding.

    8. AnotherFed*

      A month is nothing… we often do our entry level hiring process a few months before graduations, or even end up making offers to people who are a semester and change away from graduation.

    9. Apollo Warbucks*

      A month seems very reasonable to me, if two weeks is standard an extra two weeks on top of that isn’t to bad.

    10. thisisit*

      a month is no big deal. besides, they always say they’ll have an answer by X date, and it always takes longer. be honest when they ask about availability.

    11. Sheep*

      In Norway, where I am from, we often have three months notice. New employers will have to wait!

    12. kirsten*

      I’ve waited a month before too. I think it someone asked for 3 months we might say no, but a month has never been an issue.

  14. Sigh...*

    It’s been a tough few weeks and I’m hoping for some positive vibes. I’ve admitted to myself how unhappy my job makes me and that I want to transition out of this kind of role.

    I’m starting my search now but of course, that will take time. I also am having trouble pushing my accomplishments as I feel pretty worn down.

    Any tips?

    2. Rocket*

      No tips to share because I’m feeling exactly that way too. I mostly keep myself going with the knowledge that I want to leave my current job on a good note so that I can use them as references.

      Good luck, and know that you’re not alone!

    3. Sunflower*

      Any sorts of things- even outside of work- you can do to get your confidence up? Any little boost of confidence helps, even if it’s not work related.

      Something that is a relatively easy place to start is just making a list of things you’re good at or nice things people have said about you. Do you have an idea of what kind of role you’re looking to get into?

      I would also start by just looking around to see what jobs are available. Just knowing jobs are out there can help me a lot!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Pretend you are talking about your good friend and you are recommending him for a great job that you know he would be a good fit. It’s easier to talk up a friend than it to talk up ourselves sometimes.

    5. Lee*

      Take each day as it comes, try to find small things each day that you appreciate about your role. Make the most of your lunch break if not, try to make sure it breaks the day up. Try not to job search too often (when I was job hunting I was checking the same websites multiple times a day which wasn’t productive and made me exhausted without achieving anything). Keep your head up!

      Agree with Not So NewReader too! Write down every little thing you’ve achieved at work and go from there.

      Good luck!

  15. Cher Horowitz*

    Is being persistent when interested in a job really that bad? Last Friday, I applied for a job that I am a great fit for skills and interest wise, but haven’t heard back. I had someone I know who knows someone at the company shoot over a recommendation for me on Wednesday, and her contact said she would fast track my application, but I still haven’t heard back. Would it be so terrible to follow up with the person I initially applied to and if not, what’s the best strategy for this?

    1. Sunshine*

      LOVE THE NAME. But yes I do think it is bad, I’ve interviewed candidates and been the point of contact for open positions within my old organization (Not HR) and it isn’t the person’s full time job to hire for a position, there are likely other things going on, fires that need to be put out, long meetings that take away from the full time job etc. It’s like dating you don’t want to scare them off.

      1. Cher Horowitz*

        Thanks everyone! I guess I just generally assume that if I don’t hear back within a few days then they’re not interested. Perhaps that’s not the case. I will hold off.

        1. Sunflower*

          Nope not the case at all. I submitted an application on Feb. 13, contacted on on March 25 and had a phone interview 2 days later. Just heard back today, April 10. They are slightly changing the position and just sent me a new description. If I’m still interested, they want to bring me in. Sometimes these things just take time!

          It’s also worth noting that sometimes the application process isn’t rolling. If they intend to keep a position open for one month, they might not even look at applications until the time to close it comes around.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      I think you just have to wait. You already made contact through your friend.

      As a hiring manager it’s really annoying when candidates are high-touch about follow up. It’s intrusive and nobody is ever going to say “Oh I have news so I’m glad you called!” If they have news, they’ll get in touch.

    3. Cordelia Naismith*

      It’s only been a week! I would wait at least one more week before asking about your application. Hiring is a slow process, even “fast tracked” applications.

    4. Jaune Desprez*

      Do not do this. Right now you are living in Applicant Space, which increases your anxiety, decreases your confidence, and alters your sense of time. Time is not really passing at the rate that you perceive! Give it at least a couple of weeks before you follow up. Seriously. Two entire weeks.

      1. Traveler*

        “Applicant Space”

        Yes. I get nervous when it takes more than 2-3 weeks to hear something, but there have been job processes where it took 4 months to even get the interview. You just have to apply, assume you didn’t get it, and move on with your life and treat the call back like a pleasant surprise.

      2. Michele*

        I agree. Even if someone promised to fast track an application, and you submitted it on Wednesday, that was only 2 days ago. That is a very short period of time from the company’s point of view. Finding a job is the most important thing you have going on right now. Unfortunately for you, the people doing the hiring have a dozen other things going on. Also, they may be waiting for a batch of resumes to come in before they look at any of them. I am hiring right now, but I never look at resumes more than twice a week, then I set aside a block of time and look at everything together.

    5. IT Kat*

      Nooo. It’s only been a week, and you had someone internally shoot over a recommendation. At this point, I’d suggest moving on and letting it be a surprise if/when they contact you. Maybe follow up one more time in two weeks, but after that let it go.

      Hiring processes sometimes take MONTHS. And a lot of times, they don’t even start to get back to candidates until the job posting closes – which might be a few weeks or longer.

    6. Sadsack*

      I agree with Sunshine. It’s just been a week. I would wait a couple of weeks before requesting an update.

    7. FinallyFriday*

      Definitely wait! The earliest I heard back about any job I applied for was a month. Checking in after only a week would be overkill.

  16. Natalie*

    It’s becoming increasingly apparent that my new direct manager suuuuuucks. Micro-manager, passive aggressive, and prone to fly off the handle over minor issues that were either caused by his inability to communicate clearly or his tendency to hand things to us at the last minute for now reason. Oh, and he wants to be friendly somehow? He’s a remote manager which seems to be making things worse.

    Ugh, I really don’t want to job hunt right now. I’m in school at night and a little bit ago I decided to buy a house, so you know, I’m busy.

    On a positive note, I’m pretty sure I CRUSHED my accounting exam yesterday. Not forgetting my calculator makes all the difference in the world!

    1. fposte*

      Congrats on the accounting exam; knowing how to make the calculator read “BOOBIES” upside down gets ’em every time.

      Good luck on the remote manager. I think distance makes it so much harder to manage up, which is tough enough already.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

        I just flashed back to middle school math class; we got calculators for the first time and that is the first thing everybody did.

        And congrats on acing the exam, Natalie!

        1. Natalie*

          Did you have the stupid Dolly Parton joke? I don’t remember it exactly but it involve math and calculators and her… assets.

          1. Joline*

            Ours was always just about a lady and ended up with her being “boob-less.”

            There once was a lady with 69 ______ (it’s been a long time, I do not remember what she had 69 of)
            That was too too too many
            She went to 51st Street to see Doctor X
            Had 8 operations which left her boob-less

            6922251 x 8 = 55378008

  17. Possibly just crazy drama but maybe not?*

    I’m a somewhat regular reader/commenter and I’m extremely embarrassed to post this so I’m going anon but work is causing me extreme stress and I’ve even had nightmares about it and I’ve never in my life had this kind of thing happen to me (at work at least).

    I work for a small company and although I like my job there has been some inappropriate behavior from some older men here towards me (ie two men old enough to be my father asking me on dates) I promptly said I’m sorry but that’s inappropriate and it stopped but it was still very unsettling and geez even if it wasn’t at work they are 20-30 years older than me! I’ve been in the working world awhile (I’m 29) and even when I was very young I’ve never had this happen before at least not at work. I hope I don’t come off sounding dramatic about all this but I also barely spoke to these men before they asked me out and nothing beyond office small talk!

    In addition to the above there is something else…

    Without getting in to too much detail, one of my coworkers “warned” me that the owner of the company tries to have affairs with all the younger women in the office. The problem is I don’t know if this person is just starting drama or is “out to get me” but I work independently from him so I’m not sure what he would have to gain. He framed it as he was just looking out for me and I don’t know him well enough or the company well enough as I’ve only been here 1.5 months

    I probably would have just written this off as drama but I think I’m on high alert due to the other two guys…

    I have access to the previous person in my positions emails and I did notice when I was researching something that there was a fairly high turn over like they went through several people in several positions (all female names) maybe that’s not a huge red flag but I guess worth mentioning

    There’s really no other red flags and the owner is very nice to me but has not really said anything except once a comment that I must have a fast metabolism or something? He has no way tried to be inappropriate with me as of yet

    I’m not sure if anyone can really help me and really my only thinking is not to be alone with the owner but maybe someone can share their thoughts/experiences?

    I would hate for this to be true because I really do like my new job so far and it would be incredibly awful and awkward if he did try to start something.

    Also sorry if this is weird, ramble-y and/or I sound completely insane. Please excuse any typos I’m posting from my phone. I could perhaps be completely over reacting but I haven’t really been at the job long enough to tell.

    1. cuppa*

      I think the only thing you can do is be aware, enforce your boundaries, and if it does pan out to be true, decide if you want to leave.
      If you already told the other guys no, and they haven’t pushed it further, then I would let that go. No sense in worrying about that if it doesn’t happen again. With the owner, I would be cautious but not overly so. I think it is wise to try not to be alone around him, but I wouldn’t go out of my way to avoid him in other situations. I would probably be a little more cautious in my interactions around him to not seem overly friendly/open, but if you keep things business related you may not even have a problem.
      Overall, if you like the job and there aren’t anymore issues, I don’t see any reason to leave, but there is the potential for more issues. I would wait and see.

    2. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      I think you’re overly freaked out given the facts, to be honest.

      Two guys at work asked you out – that’s icky, sure, but it sounds like they accepted your no and everyone has moved on with their lives. Assuming they’re not punishing you at work for the refusal, and that they’re not harassing you or continuing to ask you out following the no, I don’t think this is anything to worry about. Sometimes coworkers date. Sometimes coworkers who are 20-30 years apart in age date. It’s not something I’d do (and I’d be kind of squicked about it, privately, if it was happening in my workplace), but if they were reasonably respectful in the asking (and the dating thing generally isn’t against company policy), I think it’s fine to just let it go and proceed as normal.

      As for the boss thing, I again think you’re being a little overboard – he hasn’t been inappropriate with you, he’s nice to you, and you like the work. So keep doing good work and being professional, and keeping the guys in the workplace (including the owner) at professional arms-length. I guess if it’s reasonable for your position you could avoid being alone with the owner, but it doesn’t sound from what you’ve included here like you’re going to be in danger if you’re alone with him, so I’m not sure that I’d start refusing to do job duties or roping co-workers into meetings they shouldn’t be in just to avoid being alone with the guy – that’d look weird and would be more likely to jeopardize your position, I’d think, than turning the guy down for a date if it comes up (and even if the owner were to “try to start an affair” with you, you haven’t said anything that leads me to believe you’d end up fired if you turned him down – are there other female employees in the workplace? Is the owner sleeping with all of them?)

      Definitely keep your eyes open for any red flags with the owner, make sure you’re maintaining your own boundaries by keeping conversations professional and non-personal, and focus on doing good work. The archives at Captain Awkward are a great resource for ideas about boundary-setting/identifying red flags (in the workplace and in life), so if you’re not totally sure what I mean by any that, that’d be a good place to look for more detailed guidance.

      Overall, is it kind of icky/vaguely uncool that guys old enough to be your dad asked you out in your first month on the job? Yes. Would it be incredibly awkward if the business owner tried to date you? Yup, absolutely. Do you need to start panicking or job hunting or both based on the information you have so far? No, no way (unless there’s more to the situation than what you’ve posted in your OP).

    3. Same boat, same drama*

      Ha, OK, I’ll also go a little more anon to say that are you working in the same company as me?

      Our work force is made almost entirely of young attractive ladies, and the CEO definitely pushes a lot of inappropriate behaviors like hugs and drinking at office parties.

      I’ve managed to avoid the weird drama by 1) being married– not helpful, I know! 2) remaining professional at all times. It’s really easy to get sucked into inappropriate habits when others are doing it, but it sounds like you’ve got a handle on staying cool when that happens. I think if you stay the course, your company– including the possibly creepy owner– will let you be. And, for me at least, it hasn’t hurt my position or reputation in the company, since I do good work and keep clients happy.

      Good luck!

    4. I have a creepy boss*

      At least the previous 3-4 people in my position and several former other female employees have slept with my boss. Nobody told me this. It really would have explained things better if they had mentioned something up front. Knowledge is powerful. This kind of information is something to keep in mind but continue to be professional and shut down the inappropriate behavior quickly. Don’t be afraid to be alone with the boss just know you may have to shut him down. Usually guys who sleep around a lot will do a lot of probing and ask wierd questions before they’ll make the actual pass.

    5. Me, Too*

      Another regular commenter going anon to respond to this. I’ve had this happen to me before, although the man never approached me. They just told many of the staff that I was “hot” and they “wanted” me. Then the staff started seeing favoritism on his part, and started spreading rumors that I had only gotten the job because he wanted to get me in bed. It was ridiculous because I was well qualified, but, alas that is not the way the drama mill works. One of the supervisory staff members confronted me finally with “You’re only here because he wants to %^&* you. Didn’t you know that?” Then everyone started treating me like dirt, giving me all the tasks no one else wanted and not letting me do anything else to get forward. I assume in their eyes, I was getting forward by having the manager’s attention. Never mind that I didn’t want it or encourage it.
      I had to quit. I hated it because I liked the job, before the drama my coworkers had seemed like great people, and I hate being the person to walk away from a situation like that. I didn’t know what else to do, and it was making me feel so small and worthless.

    6. Simplytea*

      Honestly, your worrying is not helping. You have some information, which may or may not be true, and I’m sure either it’ll fizzle out or you’ll find out it’s correct.

      Either way, be excited about your new job! And just be aware of the way you’re presenting yourself, and be immediately responsive to comments that are inappropriate (e.g. I don’t appreciate comments like those, and do not want to hear about this in the future).

    7. Merry and Bright*

      I’ve been in a new job no time at all, and two men old enough to be my father have asked me out? Too right I would be freaked out.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      You’ve got two guys that asked you out. And another person warned you about the owner. There’s something about things happening in threes that tends to be unsettling.

      Here’s one way to break it down:
      The two guys asking you out could be indicative of the culture of the company. Or NOT. It could be coincidence. Can’t tell for sure, but as another person said above here- the guys respected your NO.
      So someone warned you that the owner liked to start affairs. Forewarned is forearmed. Stay professional and stay business focused. If he does ask you out, “My policy is not to date people I work with.” You are not going to prevent him from asking, but you can be ready with your answer.

      As to the person who told you this, take what he is saying at face value, until he proves himself to be a jerk, assume he really had the best of intentions. This means not adopting him as your new best friend but just remaining your usual professional self. Your life goes on as usual, until you see substantial reason to change course.

      The few times I was warned about someone the warning proved to be correct. The person who warned me turned out to be an okay person. Fortunately, I was able to use a work focus and create an appearance of not noticing subtle behaviors. It’s amazing what can just go away when you do not seem to notice. For more blatant stuff, you can handle it because you already have handled with “NO”.

  18. Paige Turner*

    Federal resumes! O_o
    I live in DC and I’ve applied to a few fed jobs through USAJobs with no success. I was at the library and happened to see the book Federal Resume Guidebook (5th ed by Troutman).
    I had NO IDEA that my resume for federal job applications was supposed to be so different from my “regular” resume. I feel like an idiot.
    So now I am writing a federal resume- I appreciate having found this book, but I find it a bit hard to read and kind of overwhelming. I’ve found some other advice online too but I always value AAM advice more than other sites. FWIW, I have a social science MA and some scattered relevant experience working for universities, plus a lot of retail experience (my job search has been pretty terrible). Does anyone have any tips on writing a federal resume?

    1. Christy*

      I posted about this in last week’s open thread and got a few responses: control+F for my name.

      1. The Office Admin*

        This is the coolest thing I have seen this week. Does this work on every website?
        What is this magic??

    2. The Office Admin*

      I’m sure someone who has gotten a Fed job/works there now would be better for this, but I’ve applied for Fed jobs, both before I knew how their resumes should be and now, where I have a separate Fed resume.
      I used to just get rejected(using my standard resume) but recently, I made the top level qualifications, Gold or Excellent or some thing like that for a secretary position, but was rejected because they were specifically looking for veterans. It didn’t say that in the posting, but I was just glad to have been qualified, if that makes sense? I was like, YES! I can keep applying for these positions because I make the top level, there’s HOPE!!
      What can I say, I’ve been job hunting for a very very very long time!

      Make your resume LONG and wordy, and make sure the dates read 06/2008 to 10/2013 NOT June 2008 to October 2013.
      Also, I make a separate paragraph at the top that says: Qualifications pertinent to X Job and then bullet point keyword phrasing
      Good luck!

    3. Traveler*

      Right? I feel like it’s an open secret among people who have already worked with the feds but I felt like such a plebeian when I found out. I bet they tossed my resume in the trashcan with a pile of other people who handed in the wrong information. I found a few videos on youtube that were pretty helpful in demystifying the process a bit and asked my friends that had already worked for the feds for help. I’ll post the youtube link in another post since it’ll probably get sidelined for the moment.

      1. periwinkle*

        The feds aren’t the only ones with an automated screening process that requires certain resume wording. Around here you can take a seminar on the “secrets” for getting hired by my (very, very large) employer and I’m sure that resume phrasing is lesson #1. If our ATS is screening for “project management”, it will ignore “project manager” and “managed projects”. You have to wonder how many resumes of wonderfully qualified applicants never made it to a human. The only reason I made it was because a current employee told me how to revise my resume in a way that made the ATS happy. (I never figured out how to make the fed system happy after two years of trying, alas)

      1. Paige Turner*

        Thanks for all the replies :) I’m glad I’m not the only one who felt like a plebeian loser- it doesn’t help that I have literally dozens of friends/acquaintances here in DC who are feds and no one mentioned it before. Crossing my fingers that my applications will start going somewhere now…

        1. ElCee*

          Federalsoup dot com is another source.
          The federal application process is a very different beast than all other sectors–even state and local government. Most of the time you wait a LONG time to hear anything.
          It’s a learning curve but we have all been there (or at least, those of us who started applying after the USAJobs “overhaul” a few years ago). You’ll get the hang of it. When you do manage to score the elusive interview, it is very satisfying! And then a job offer–even more so!

    5. Simplytea*

      Something a lot of people don’t know is they use a computer system to sort the thousands of applications they have into qualified sections.

      To make the cert, you have to basically use EXACTLY the words they use, no synonyms, especially the ones in the “specialized” section. Change your resume for EVERY job you apply for. Give highest marks for all the multiple choices even if they aren’t true–I don’t advocate for this, and don’t do it, but you won’t make the cert if you don’t have highest marks for all.

  19. OhNo*

    What is the best way to open negotiations for a promotion? I got offered a promotion at my current job that will become official after I graduate – which is great! I’ve already verbally accepted, because I know I’ll take it, at least for a while, no matter what the pay rate is.

    When I do get the official offer, though, what would be a good way to negotiate the pay and/or benefits is I want to do so? Should I preemptively talk to my boss about it, or should I wait until the written offer comes through and discuss it then? And what is reasonable to negotiate for a just-above-entry-level position? I know pay is an option, but what about schedules or vacation time?

    1. sittingduck*

      You can negotiate for anything, vacation time, pay, schedules – but a lot of it depends on the job type (you need to determine what is appropriate and what is not).

      It doesn’t hurt to negotiate, even if you would take any pay rate – because you could get more.

      That being said, since you have already verbally accepted the position, they may not negotiate with you, since you’ve basically told them you will take it.

      Your power in negotiation is that it may be a deal breaker, so if you’ve already accepted the position, they know its not a deal breaker.

      But you could still try.

    2. Artemesia*

      If you have already accepted you are not in much of a position to negotiate — you said yes. When someone makes this kind of offer, you say how interested you are about taking about it further. When you talk about it further you probe about the new responsibilities and expectations and then you ask them about the salary range and pitch your suitability to be fairly high in the range for XYZ reasons. If they offer Z flatly then you ask if there is some flexibility because you think as a result of XYZ you bring something extra to the table. When you accept without details, you are in a week position to negotiate. The best way to handle it might be to ignore that you already accepted and try to open a discussion of the parameters of the role and your new responsibilities and the expected salary — and then work from there. Next time, don’t say ‘yes’, say ‘how interesting, I look forward to discussing this.’

  20. manomanon*

    How do you stop yourself from over-explaining things? I fall into the trap of listing all the possible solutions plus which one I picked and why when asked something. I do this because in my last position my manager put a lot of decision making responsibilities I shouldn’t have had onto me and then made me justify them to our top people. However, it’s not as necessary now and I find that I can’t make myself stop. My new manager only cares about why I made the choice that I did- not the whole variety of choices I had and why I didn’t choose options b, c and d. She doesn’t seem bothered by this trait but I’m finding that the habit eats up our one on one meetings and we either run over or I don’t get everything I need from the meeting.

    1. Dawn*

      I used to do this! If your manager has explicitly stated that she doesn’t need the other justifications/explanations from you, take her at her word and STOP. I found it helped a lot if I would make notes on what I would say before I went into 1:1 meetings and then just stuck to those notes. So I’d write out the decision I made and why I made it, and then just stick to the notes when talking about it instead of going off on every little tangential other potential decision that could have been made but wasn’t.

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      Could you train yourself to use a script? Something like, “I weighed a lot of options, but ultimately decided that A was the best solution because of X and Y reasons. If you want to know more about my decision process, I’m happy to elaborate, but I am excited to move forward with A.”

      1. Natalie*

        Yes. I tend to give way too much background, and I’ve trained myself to start at the most important thing and then ask if someone wants more background. Or, in email, put it in it’s own “Background” section at the bottom of the email, under the action item.

    3. TCO*

      I agree that it might help to write things out. Type your narrative about why you made the decision you did, and then go back through and edit out 95% of it. That’s often much easier to do in writing than during the conversation.

      Would it also help to have an informal agenda for your 1:1 meetings? If you have a clear checklist of everything you want to cover it might help you stay focused on keeping things brief.

    4. fposte*

      I’m like this generally in lots of situations, and for me the problem is not knowing my ending when I start, so I don’t recognize it when it whizzes past me. If this is you, try keeping your eye on the information goal and stopping when you reach it.

      1. Pontoon Pirate*

        That’s such a good description of how most of my conversations go that I’m stealing it immediately.

    5. manomanon*

      Thank you all these are helpful strategies. We do have an agenda of sorts for our one on ones. I have a bulleted list of things I want to cover and/or need her input on. I will start putting more detail onto it though which might be a better impetus for me to stay on point.
      I like the idea of adding a script to my prep for these meetings.
      Email tends to be a bit easier for me since I can edit out most of the things that are irrelevant before hitting send.

    6. TinyPjM*

      I used to do this a LOT, a lot a lot. What works for me is to act like I am explaining something to a child. Not to mean that I dumb down things, but it helps me be less descriptive and more brief.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I read on here and it seems to be true: Start with your conclusion. “I decided on solution X for this situation. My reason for this choice is that X will allow us to[insert: have A, use B or end up with C] where as none of the other solutions offered this.”

      Make it your habit to start with the answer and work back. One thing I have done is tell myself, “Cut to the chase!” if I don’t get there fast enough, I remind myself “The chase! The chase!”

      Reality is that you should have a good reason for your choices and you should be able to explain that to anyone who asks. So it is fine to have something prepared and waiting just in case someone asks. You don’t have to explain the moment by moment with this boss though.
      My current boss will spot check me. Most stuff keeps going, but once in a while she will pause and say “what about this?” And I am ready with my reply.

  21. InternalApplicant*

    Alison’s article on applying for an internal position was perfectly timed. A coworked recently left our department (of 5, now 4 people) and I am interviewing for her job. On Monday my other coworker, who would be my supervisor, is doing phone interviews. Since I’m already in the office this will just be a 20-minute meeting with her. Then if all goes well I’ll do a half-day of in-person interviews later in the week. My question is, do you think I need to wear a suit on Monday, or just for the other day? I’ll already be in my usual business casual (dress pants and button-down — I’m female), and I think I’d feel a little ridiculous dressing up in a suit all day for a short meeting with my coworker who has basically already told me I’ll make it through to the next round. What do you think?

    1. Paige Turner*

      I think, wear the suit. You can always take the jacket off before and after the interview so you don’t feel so dressed up the rest of the day. Even if you know (or think) you’re already going to the next round, it doesn’t seem like there’s any downside to wearing the suit and it couldn’t hurt to show that you’re really serious about the position.

    2. Xarcady*

      So it’s kind of like an in-person phone screen?

      I’d kick my regular outfit up a notch. Maybe a nice cardigan over the button-down, and nicer shoes. And pay attention to the little grooming details. Not the full-on suit, but a half step above my usual look.

      Just enough to show that you are taking the entire process seriously, even though this step appears to be just checking off a box: Yep, did the phone screen.

      1. the gold digger*

        I know of someone who was working as a temp at a public university. She applied for the full-time position for which she was temping. For her phone screen interview, the hiring manager, who was her current supervisor, went into her office, closed the door, and called the temp who was sitting right outside of her office. She was apologetic about it, explaining every candidate had to be interviewed the exact same way.

  22. Not Today Satan*

    Do any of you have experience in account management/sales? I have an interview for a job like this next week. Normally I’m not interested in sales, but I have interest (and expertise/a master’s degree) in the industry/product. From what they described during the phone screen, the vast majority of my clients will already be clients of the company (I won’t need to do much/any cold calling etc). I will spent 2-3 days working from home and 2-3 days on the road visiting clients, I guess seeing if they’re happy with what they have and trying to discern their current/future needs. There’s a decent base salary + bonuses (so it’s not commission based).

    Any words of wisdom? My dad is a regional sales rep so the world isn’t *totally* foreign to me but I’m still trying to figure out if it’s something I’d like/be good at. I’m definitely not “Salesy” but I’m good at building relationships with people.

    1. Alex*

      This sounds similar to my job. One thing you should be comfortable with is constant follow-up of people, both internal and external. With an AM job, you are likely to be depending on coworkers, partners, other vendors, management, etc. for many aspects of delivering to your clients. You’re sort of a project manager in this regard, so make sure you can be comfortable pulling your colleagues in the directions you need them to be in, especially when you’re under deadlines and not getting responses.

      Similarly, you’ll have to play this role with clients as well. Keep them on track and don’t let conversations go cold. Even though you’re not going to be cold-calling, you will likely need to be very proactive in reaching out to people within the organizations that you haven’t had any relationship with but might influence or own some product set that you’d like to get into that company with. It’s easy to be complacent when the client already has your product, but you’ll get in trouble if you aren’t proactive about really crawling and canvassing the business to make new connections, because a competitor will be, and if they get a product that you sell as a side-item in the door because you weren’t being proactive enough, then you’ll kick yourself.

      This is my experience anyway. It can be grind, but it can be fun.

      2. Pipes*

        I was going to reply, but this comment really hits it on the nose. I am in an AM role for technology, and I do not do any cold calling either. My time is split between following up on deals I am working (time management is very important – I work with our smallest customers, so I have 30 – 50 sales deals going on at any given time. Our AMs working with the largest customers may only have one, but many many moving parts in that single deal), and answering questions / solving problems for my customers and partners.

        When people hear “sales”, they immediately think of used car salesmen or something along those lines. With these types of jobs, don’t even think sales! Think of the opportunity for uncovering and solving customer problems. If that’s something of interest to you, it’ll be worth it. I love my job!

    2. puddin*

      Ouch, I am cringing at your last sentence. No good salesperson is “Salesy”. A good salesperson is a consultant who is helping their client uncover needs/problems and offering viable solutions. Most employers want salespeople who listen more than they talk. Asking open ended questions of their clients to find out what the opportunity to offer a product or service is. For example, I used to sell computers in a retail store in the early 90’s we would have people come in a say that they needed a computer that did word processing so they could balance their checkbook electronically. OK now we all now that is not a thing, but back then there was a lot of education and learning that went along with sales. And really, that is how is should be all the time.

      The idea is to know your customers goals, their business, their 5 year plan so that you can enmesh what you are selling where and when it fits into your clients plans.

      If you want to read up on current sales theories I recommend, “The Little Red Book of Selling” by Jeffry Gitomer and “Challenger Sales” by Matthew Dixon and Brent Adamson.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        Thank you! I didn’t mean to insult sales people at all; sorry if it came across that way.

        1. puddin*

          Oh no worries! I am not offended at all. :)

          I just worry that people always think that sales is about lying and being pushy therefore don’t consider it a job option.

      2. Pennalynn Lott*

        Thanks, puddin. I was in tech sales for 20 years (before deciding this past winter to go back to school for a degree in accounting and, ultimately, a CPA), and the one thing I loved about sales was being able to help customers solve problems. Listening is a huge part of that. So is being able to say, “I think you’ve got a good handle on X, and nothing I have to offer can improve it.”

        Sales – “good” sales, anyway – isn’t about “selling ice to Eskimos”, it’s about helping people solve problems with your products and/or services. If you can’t help them, then you move on. You don’t try to fit a square peg into a round hole. That’s a waste of time (both yours and theirs) and a great way to ruin your company’s reputation.

        In my years of experience, the place where sales gets a [justifiable] bad rap is in consumer sales. You have to sell a ton of individual units of X to a ton of individual retail customers, and bad behavior in that realm gets diluted (and is oftentimes encouraged by management). B2B (business-to-business) sales, especially in tech, is a whole other animal with a different, better, set of rules.

  23. cuppa*

    So I’ve transferred locations, and word on the street is that this spot gets pretty warm during the summer months. Year round, I’m pretty much a dress or skirt/shirt with a cardigan girl. I’m used to being in places with high air conditioning, so I’m usually cold.
    Any ideas for how to dress for a warm office? I’ve come up with skipping the pantyhose, but I’m looking for ideas. Most of my dresses are sleeveless, and I’m not really comfortable showing completely bare arms. Any suggestions for great pieces with short sleeves?

    2. Dawn*

      If you can, get a little fan to put under your desk. My office gets hot for 2-3 hours midday, and having a little bit of air moving around helps a ton!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I was going to say this too. My office is usually cold, but I have a fan for when I finish doing stair climbs, to help me cool off. It definitely helps.

    3. Violet Rose*

      You could layer a short-sleeved/t-shirt cardigan over the dresses! I see cute pictures and tutorials on pinterest all the time, but most of my shirts have longer sleeves than the shrugs and would look ridiculous, so I don’t wear them myself.

      1. Violet Rose*

        D’oh, remind me to refresh before replying; I see ACA beat me to it. To make a useless comment less useless: I used to live in an area known for being warm, casual, and beachfront, so you could easily get away with wearing nice t-shirts, but lightweight, short-sleeved button-downs and blouses were also pretty popular.

    4. LillianMcGee*

      I’m in Chicago where the summer months are hot, humid, sticky, yuck. They BLAST the air conditioning basically everywhere. I don’t leave home without my jean jacket or light leather. Cardigans aplenty. Layer!

    5. Natalie*

      Pay attention to fabric. IMO synthetics are the absolute worst in the summer (unless they’re althetic or performance gear) – they don’t breathe, so I just stink to high heaven by the end of the day no matter what I do. Cotton and linen are your friends for both too warm and a little too cool.

      1. CoffeeLover*

        Agreed. Just go for light material. Light material skirts, light material shirts, light material pants. I would also go for flowy over fitted. So choose a-line skirts instead of pencil skirts.

    6. Mitchell*

      Think same outfit, different fabrics. You’d be surprised how much difference it makes.

    7. cuppa*

      Thanks, everyone! This was really helpful! I think I am going to get a fan and check out some short-sleeved sweaters.

    8. Xarcady*

      Try to avoid nylon. It’s a very heat-retentive material. And it seems to be all over the place in the fashion industry right now. I’m seeing a lot of nylon and nylon/polyester blends for summer clothes–these are just going to be hot.

      As someone suggested above, cotton and linen are good choices. So is rayon, or a rayon/linen or rayon/cotton blend. Ramie blended with cotton is also a good choice for sweaters.

    9. Mephyle*

      When it gets really hot, it really helps to avoid things that touch you around your waist. In other words, this is the time to not wear skirts, or dresses that have a seam or elastic at the waist, and stick to shift dresses.

  24. Little bit frustrated*

    I got a rejection about 24hrs after sending in a marathon form application. I read AAMs “rejection” section, and am feeling a little better. And yes, in a way, of course it’s better to know that not. But, I still feel a bit frustrated. I guess that’s why they make chocolate…

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      …and cake :) it’s never fun being rejected but keep going, you’ll get something soon!

    2. Not Today Satan*

      I hate getting those so shortly after applying. :( I’ve gotten them as soon as 25 minutes after submitting. So demoralizing.

      1. Merry and Bright*

        +100 I think Alison posted a comment the other day where she said even if she knew quite quickly that an applicant wasn’t a good fit, she will wait about a week before sending a rejection. It is much less insulting and softens the blow.

    3. Malissa*

      I look at is a bullet dodged. If they reject you before a human has looked over your resume, you didn’t want to work for them anyway.

    4. Merry and Bright*

      To paraphrase Groucho Marx, you don’t want to work somewhere that wouldn’t have you.

      Their loss. :)

    5. The Office Admin*

      I got a job rejection about 30 minutes after I found out that the apartment we wanted to move into doesn’t allow our dog breed after they said all three times we visited the complex that yes, our dog would be fine, no big deal.
      Right.
      Kick me when I’m down people, jeez.
      Would you rather have a rejection 1 day after applying, or 3 months after applying?

    6. Tau*

      I hear you – I got a rejection for a job I was really excited about the day after I sent in the application this week myself. :( Chocolate sounds like a very good solution to me.

    8. Little bit frustrated*

      I just wanted to get my “Thank Yous” in before this thread gets completely buried. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one who feels this way, and the encouragement really helps. You all made my day much brighter, thanks! :-)

  25. _ism_*

    The more I post and receive feedback on my work situation (here and other sites too), the more despondent I am becoming. All the news and blogs about the wage gap between men and women, and the raising of minimum wages whether real or hypothetical… those don’t help. I am worried that I am going to experience rising anxiety and depression the longer I try to stick it out here. (The backstory is long, but suffice it to say I’m stuck here, it’s considered a “good job” and I’ve been at it for a year, and it is ESSENTIAL to remain employed.) Managers don’t respect me or actively dislike me. I let it slip to my boss that I may have Asperger’s and now she talks to me like I’m stupid, and gets extra frustrated when I want to talk about the details or process of something. I’m being paid less than a Walmart cashier, but my role seems pretty important. They’ve put me on a massive regulatory compliance project that I am teaching myself from the ground up. I crunch numbers and find errors in our order system all day every day. I’m being asked to train new hires on Excel, but am not told what exactly they need to learn or what their experience level is. I had to report sexual harrassment. The HR lady resents me for some reason and called me names when I needed information about my benefits. I get good feedback from my boss, but also bad feedback. I need this job, I need the good reference and the experience because I have been a serial job hopper, homeless and addicted and depressed in the very recent past. I am stuck in a better situation than before, but at the same time I’m starting to realize it’s not good enough and I’m worth more.

    1. fposte*

      That all sounds really frustrating. I don’t have much to offer about the job part, except for know your own worth and keep your head up, but do you have a therapist to help with the anxiety and the depression? It sounds like resilience will be key here, and therapy is often a way to enhance it.

      1. _ism_*

        Thanks. I am constantly second-guessing my worth, with all the media buzz conflicting with my own personal issues. When I figure out these health benefits I will look into a therapist.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Please watch less media. I think that is good advice for all of us, dial it back. It’s not helping us and in some cases it can hurt us. It can pull down our thinking and in turn pull down our health. Please make a deliberate effort to find positive things to read/watch.

          Maybe you can find a 800 number to call and talk to someone about your benefits.

          You can ask the new hires what their experience is with Excel so that solves half the problem with training. If you boss will not inform you what to teach them, then teach them the types of things you use or you see others around you using. Hit the stuff that is the most often used or causes the most questions/difficulties. Bonus points for teaching them how to find their own answers if they have a problem.

          You sound very alone/lonely at your job. This would do in anyone- most people would want to jump up and run out the door. I am not sure what would help here. I think you have been reading/commenting here for a little while now. Keep reading. The effect is cumulative, over time your outlook/perceptions/thoughts on things will broaden. This is what is happening to all of us here, which is why we keep reading. This is a crock pot solution, not a microwave solution. Let what you read here just percolate for a bit and see where that puts you.

          1. _ism_*

            Thanks for the kind words. The percolation has started, I think… by media buzz, I just mean all the news blogs about the minimum wage and gender pay gap. I don’t see them on TV, but I do internet way too much.

            1. PX*

              Be selective about where you internet. I have a carefully curated bubble I check regularly, and while I know there’s a lot more out there, I’ve made the conscious decision for my own mental health to just not go there. So that would be my tip!

  26. Violet Rose*

    I spoke to my manager about the sexist/prejudiced comments in the office, and it didn’t blow up in my face! I presented it as, “comments like these could get us in trouble as we get larger, if we ever want to employ people who are [female, gay, Muslim, etc.]”. I’m not sure it really sank in, since there was a lot of, “Unfortunately, that’s the way he is,” and “he’s equally likely to pick on [people who are, say, from a particular city – not anything that is a protected class].” But, he wasn’t dismissive, and I feel like I’ve now laid the groundwork in case it gets worse or I feel the need to speak up more often.

    1. Violet Rose*

      For context, I’ve postedthree previous rants about this specific guy and his specific comments. (CommentGuy is the CEO, and my manager is next in command, so Manager was really the only person to whom I could go.) I didn’t bring up all of the examples I listed here, just the two I thought would seem most egregious from a third part perspective.

      So much more I probably should have said, with less waffling, but I feel better for having said SOMEthing.

      (And of course, if anyone else has similar stories, I’d love to hear!)

    2. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      Go you!! I’m very proud you did that. What a weak ass attempt at explaining this away though, on your manager’s (?) part.

      1. Violet Rose*

        Yeah, I think he was trying to be comforting, but I don’t think he quite Got It. (He did at least say, “If he says something really out of line and you don’t feel like confronting him, come to me”.) I don’t think he’s ever dealt with a complaint like that before, so I’m curious to see how this goes.

    3. Anonicorn*

      I’m glad your feeling more positive than before and I admittedly have no context for your situation, but “unfortunately, that’s the way he is,” IS NOT OK coming from a manager when someone reports sexist/prejudice comments.

      1. Violet Rose*

        The complication is, the guy I was complaining about outranks us both, so Manager wasn’t just deflecting – his power really is limited here. But I’m hoping that now that I’ve pointed out how gendered assumptions can be harmful, he’ll start hearing them more.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Not my experience, but at Exjob, we once got a female sales rep–she was really nice and I thought, Yay, more of us in the office (there were only five women in the entire company at the time, counting Bosswife, and even less after she and CoolSupervisor left). She was a little overweight but by no means grossly obese or anything.

      The guys were SO MEAN to her–they made constant comments about how much she ate, called her names like dump truck behind her back, made fat jokes continually. Not just the office guys, but the shop guys as well. I tried to call them on it when I heard it, but they either totally ignored me or pooh-poohed me.

      She barely lasted two weeks before bailing on the job, citing a back injury. Bullshit, and good for her for leaving. This disgusted me so much I would have walked out myself if I could have. After she left, someone said, “I bet her back wasn’t really bad–she just didn’t like this job.” I said, “Why would she, when you guys said nasty things about her all the time?” “Oh you just have to learn to take shit around here; we’re just kidding.”

      Even thinking about that now makes me so mad I could spit, but I couldn’t afford to do anything about it at the time. I wish now that I’d reported it, though I don’t think it would have done any good. I’m just glad she left because DAMN.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Some companies know how to REPEL good people while other companies are looking to attract new people.

        One of the hallmarks of bullying is, “Oh, what? Can’t take a joke?” Bullies are exhausting people because no matter what they are always right.

      2. Violet Rose*

        I thought I replied to this last night; I must’ve spaced and closed the window instead. Anyway:

        0_0 WOW. Just… WOW. I’m glad she got out of there too! And Not So NewReader nailed it on “Can’t take a joke?” Actual jokes don’t depend on cruelty to be “funny”.

  27. the_scientist*

    Here’s a good open thread question! My relationship with my former master’s supervisor has turned a bit awkward. We had some bumps during the course of my program and thesis writing-she was definitely a tough supervisor, but I know her toughness made me the researcher that I am and I never shied away from taking responsibility for mistakes. In the end, my defense went swimmingly, and we immediately started working on a manuscript. It was rejected (I don’t totally disagree; on its own it doesn’t tell a hugely compelling story) but when I went to start working on a second manuscript, she totally fell off the radar. I’ve basically given up on getting this published because she just will not respond to my emails and I need her OK to move forward.

    To make it more awkward, she works for my old job as an investigator. When I announced that I was leaving, every other investigator and many of our other external collaborators reached out to thank me for my work and wish me well. I heard *nothing* from her…..until last week (three months after the fact) when I got a LinkedIn request from her. And, maybe I’m putting too much emotional energy into a LinkedIn request, but….I’m honestly kind of peeved. She let me down as an advisor by not helping me get published, and she couldn’t take 30 seconds out of her schedule to send me an email wishing me well? I know she’s busy but I honestly don’t think anyone is that busy. I can’t *not* accept the request, because that’s too awkward, but I feel like by accepting it I’m tacitly accepting that it’s ok to be sort of cast aside/forgotten about (wrt the manuscript). I’ve been stewing about this for days and I need an objective opinion on whether I’m blowing this totally out of proportion, as a habitual over-thinker.

    1. Christian Troy*

      Someone from my master’s program “friended” me on LinkedIn about a year after I last saw him in person. We didn’t get along during our group project for various reasons that are complicated and I ran into him having a meeting with our professor about me when I turned in the final paper. I accepted his request on the basis that I didn’t want it to look bad to other people from our program, nothing more and nothing less.

      So, I get where you’re coming, but at the same time, you never know what the future holds when it comes to connections.

    2. fposte*

      Yeah, there’s a fair bit of suck in there. I don’t think it’s personal to you–my guess is that there’s stuff going on for her that you don’t know about–and I’d definitely let go of the “congratulations” email thing. Additionally, LinkedIn requests seem to be automatically generated most of the time, so I don’t think she’s necessarily consciously behind that.

      The failure to approve the manuscript is another issue. This is a practice outside of my discipline, so I don’t know the conventions, but if all she has to do it as rubber-stamp so you can continue and not be an actual contributing co-author, she really needs to do that. Does she have office hours, and can you turn up with the paperwork during them? Is there a program supervisor or dean whom you can contact if you can’t pin her down that way–not to file a complaint, but it ask if there’s a way around the problem or anybody else who can provide the approval?

      I think taking a specific action may help you think about it less. And thinking about it less would be a good thing.

      1. the_scientist*

        Yes, my thought is that the LinkedIn request was automatically generated. And I do know that there were some other things happening in her life that may have caused her to fall behind on email. I think it’s fair that I need to let go of the congratulations thing, although I maintain that it’s a bit rude!

        Regarding the manuscript, she will be a co-author, so it’s more than just a rubber stamp. It would involve reviewing the manuscript and suggesting revisions and additions. The manuscript is part of my thesis, so it’s already written and I have a journal picked out and the approval of my co-supervisor (another co-author) but co-supervisor will not proceed without primary supervisor’s input (this is reasonable and typical) and it would be unethical to remove her as an author. Unfortunately, I went to grad school in a city three hours away from where I currently live and work, so even if she kept regular office hours (she doesn’t), I can’t exactly show up at her door! She IS the program head, but I could follow-up with the department head, potentially. However, publishing was not a requirement to complete this program (it’s a master’s, not a PhD), so I could see a response of “well, it’s at the discretion of your supervisor so there’s nothing we can do”. It may be that I just need to write it off, which is a shame because I think it’s totally publishable (albeit not ground-breaking or high-impact) and I would love a first-author manuscript- and it’s to her advantage to publish it, since she’s an author!

        1. AnonAcademic*

          Have you sent an email stating that you plan to submit the paper on X date, and you will need her feedback by Y date if she wants to suggest any changes? You can even add in “If I don’t hear from you by X date I will assume the paper is fine as-is.”

          If she’s the department head it’s entirely likely she’s swamped in admin tasks and you might need to put direct time pressure on her for her to get back to you.

        2. Cath in Canada*

          How many people are authors on both manuscripts – is it just you and her? Would it be at all feasible to have a junior member of the group – maybe an undergrad, or a very new grad student – do a small amount of work on the project to extend either manuscript enough that they could be a second (or third or fourth or whatever) author? That would be a big deal for someone that junior, and having someone who’s actually physically there who’s also pushing the supervisor to get involved could be just the extra momentum you need. It could also allow you to salvage the first manuscript, assuming that resubmitting to a lower impact journal isn’t an option for you.

          Personally I wouldn’t involve the department head – that has the potential to backfire spectacularly, in many of the possible scenarios.

          Good luck!

        3. TL -*

          It’s kind of a big deal if she’s not helping you publish (assuming, from your name, that you’re in the sciences.) I think you have the right to be more than annoyed with her – the congrats thing is not a big deal but the publishing thing would push me straight to bitch-eating-crackers mode.

        4. fposte*

          As I’ve said, I don’t know the field conventions–is it possible that this is a one-bite-at-the-cherry situation, and having put in the work for the first submission she’s peacing out on subsequent publishing attempts?

          1. the_scientist*

            Thanks all, for your thoughtful replies! Cath, I don’t know if it’s possible to have a junior student get involved- the manuscript is 90% written since it was part of my master’s thesis and since I’m no longer connected in any tangible way to my supervisor, I’m not sure how many students she currently has, if any- no undergrads, for sure. There would be three authors, and given the extent of her contribution to my thesis I think that ethically, she needs to remain an author. On further reflection, I think you’re right that involving the department head has the potential to end very poorly.

            Regarding giving her a hard deadline, I think she’d be furious about that, to be honest. She’s *very* particular and will not sign her name to anything without going over it with a fine-tooth comb (possibly why she’s so slow to respond to things?) At my old job, she would frequently stall the progress of time-sensitive projects by taking forever to get around to reviewing them and then demanding substantial revisions. So I could do it that way, but that would be the end of the relationship for sure.

            Fposte- the plan was always to get at least 2 manuscripts out of my thesis; we had the option of chapter or manuscript format and I chose the manuscript format so it would be easier to publish. Maybe she decided I needed too much coaching or my writing wasn’t up to par (she is very critical of everyone’s writing) after the first manuscript, but it would have been better for her to just say so? She’s always trying to publish and has fast-tracked a whole bunch of manuscripts in the past year, so maybe that’s where her focus is and she’s not interested in a last-author manuscript right now……but if she just doesn’t respond to several months worth of follow-up emails I’m never going to know. I’m stumped.

            And not so new reader- she is an investigator for my former job, so I know she’s around and healthy. Just unresponsive to email.

            1. fposte*

              Yes, she absolutely should respond. She’s doing a crap job of supervising. If your question ultimately is just “Hey, is my supervisor crappy?” the answer is definitely yes.

            2. AnonAcademic*

              I’m sorry to hear that she’s so unreasonable. She doesn’t sound like a very good mentor. In my field, publications are how you get jobs and grants, so someone kiboshing publishing for dumb reasons is a Big Deal. Big enough that it might be worth burning a bridge over, because it could come down to your career advancement vs. preserving the relationship. It doesn’t sound like it’s that high stakes in your situation and so I understand the bind you’re in.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I hope this is off the wall and has nothing to do with your setting. I had a friend going for a doctorate. His adviser fell off the radar just like you are saying. Long story made very short it turned out that the adviser was terminally ill.

      If you cannot get an answer from her, please call someone around her and ask if she is okay.

  28. Carrie in Scotland*

    OH MY GOSH YOU GUYS IT’S APRIL!

    I’m officially on the job hunt in the city I’m relocating to during the summer and have found 2 positions to apply to already.

    This stuff is getting real. Eeek.

    1. The IT Manager*

      It gets real fast. I just completed my move which I was talking about in November and December. And boom, it’s April and I working from my new home. Just keep chugging along and take breaks before you get burnt out on everything to packing, moving, job hunting.

    2. S*

      I started applying for jobs in February and now here I am in April with a new job to start next month and I turned in my notice at my current place. It all moves fast! Good luck with your job hunt!

  29. SLG*

    Any suggestions on how to move into a different department when there’s no formal job listed, but work needs to be done and I have the skillset to do it?

    For reference, this is a company with a fairly casual, go-for-it-and-get-sh*t-done culture, but it’s becoming more formal as the company grows. I have good relationships in the department I want to move into, and I’m picking up projects for them on the side as I’m able. When I asked an HR rep for advice, they told me to literally create a job description, give it to the people I want to work for, and pitch myself to fill the role. That seems a little aggressive to me — not to mention risky because you get one shot at pulling a move like that, and if you get it wrong, it’s hard to recover from.

    Fortunately my manager is aware of what I want and is willing to advocate for it as well. I’m networking like crazy (among other things, took the VP to coffee and he offered to have coffee with me again). So far I’ve been told there’s no budget for a new position, but this is the type of company where that can change very quickly. Any suggestions on what else I can be doing?

    1. Astatine Product Manager*

      ” That seems a little aggressive to me.” I do not think so! I actually think your HR rep had a good suggestion.

      As for your concern, “you get one shot at pulling a move like that, and if you get it wrong, it’s hard to recover from”, I believe you can avoid any risk by being non-aggressive about it, saying something like “I realize there is no current budget for this, but for reasons X, Y, and Z, I do believe it would be a good idea to have this new job created, and I thought I’d bring you the job description I came up with for your consideration”. Make it very clear that you saw an opportunity and wanted to discuss it, but would not be dissatisfied if the idea is turned down for financial or other reasons.

      In fact, when people talk about how important “initiative taking” is, that’s what it means! Finding a problem that’s important for the company to solve (hopefully in its critical path) and coming up with a solution without having to be told to do so. As long as you are not arrogant about it, and make it very clear that you’d understand if it it’s not possible to go with your suggestion, I don’t think there’s any risk of it backfiring (especially since your own manager is willing to advocate for it).

      One thing to consider is whether you think this can be “sold” as a long-term job. You say “work needs to be done”, but is it work that keeps being replenished, or an one-off project (which you could write a proposal for being temporarily reassigned to?). Be your own “devil advocate” and figure out if you can make a convincing case for a permanent new job title, or need to recommend a temporary task force that you would lead. Note that regardless of the outcome of your proposal, this can become an excellent talking point for “tell me about a time when you showed initiative at work” interview question. Good luck!

      1. SLG*

        Thanks for the advice! This is helpful — I was having a hard time imagining how to present a job description in a non-obnoxious way. Definitely will go for it.

  30. Ali*

    So I had a phone interview today for a social media job with a national outsourced services provider. I’m familiar with the company already so didn’t have to do much research there. However, there is now a marketing/sales component to the job that was not in the description when I applied or mentioned by the recruiter. (I know, “other duties as assigned” and all.) The HR manager who interviewed me said a couple people have already backed off the position after hearing that. I told her I wanted to learn more about the role, as I was interested in working in marketing eventually, but wasn’t prepared for the sales aspect of it or the part that requires design work. She said she would see if she could arrange a phone screen with the marketing manager for me, so now I’m waiting on that.

    I’m disappointed because this job seemed like a great fit! But, if I were to be offered it and accept, I’d have to move five hours away. I wouldn’t want to do that for a role that didn’t totally work for me because I’d end up back in my dead-end hometown. I also had reservations about the city, because it’s pretty similar to where I live now in terms of population and (lack of) decent activities to do, so I admit that held me back. I had cold feet and nerves yesterday and now it all seems to make sense, unfortunately.

    The door isn’t totally shut here, but I think my enthusiasm about the position has dropped.

    1. voluptuousfire*

      +1. Been there, have the tshirt, commemorative plate and shot glass to prove it.

      Good luck!

  31. loquaciousaych*

    I got a new job!!!!!!!!!!! and I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE it! I am out of sales and out of retail, two HUGE bonuses in my personal book! At 42, with over 20 years of sales, I was just really burned out on it and to get into something else was HUGE.

    I’m now the Activities Director for an assisted living community, and it is the best job I have had in about 10 years. I am thrilled and challenged every day.

    BTW, THANK YOU ALISON for giving me the courage to be much more direct in the interview for this job than I would have been a couple years ago.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Congratulations! How did you successfully make the transition from sales to being the activities director?

      1. loquaciousaych*

        I was lucky, and the fit was just *RIGHT*. I knew it and so did the Administrator interviewing me- immediately.

        Seriously, I used soft skills and administrative experience in my resume to show off that I can handle lots of high level thinking and strategic planning, and wrote a KILLER cover letter.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      This is super timely! My husband has been doing retail his entire professional career (about 15 years) and is getting super burnt out as well. We were just talking last night about what other options are out there where he “can help people without having to sell stuff to them.”

      What other kinds of positions did you look at?

      1. loquaciousaych*

        Administrative positions mostly, but I also considered (and applied for) records clerk and stuff like that.

    6. FinallyFriday*

      That’s awesome, congratulations!

      If you don’t mind me asking (feel free to not answer if I’m prying too much), what kind of qualifications do you need for that kind of career in an assisted living community? That’s a path I’m considering going down and some inside knowledge would be much appreciated.

      1. loquaciousaych*

        Assisted living usually doesn’t have any certification or educational experience requirements. Skilled nursing does. I did find out that if they could have added any single “bonus thing” to me as a package overall, they would have liked a degree, but they were not going to overlook the fit just because I didn’t have one.

        The things you need are: a passion for connecting with people and building relationships, long term planning skills, willingness to manage yourself (and sometimes others), ability to handle sensitive and tough situations well, and an engaging personality. I truly feel I have all of these abilities in spades.

        I would volunteer for a while to get a feel for it, because it is really wonderful and fun! But it’s work!

  32. Self Aware Anonymous*

    This is pretty embarrassing to admit and I hope people have constructive advice on this.

    I am prone to gossiping at work and I hate it about myself. I tell myself I’ll stop, but I have a hard time actually stopping. I’ve worked in mostly small and toxic workplaces where the gossip started at the top. In every single position, the management would gossip about other people to me and I think that’s where it started. It almost felt like it gave me permission to gossip (I know that’s not a valid excuse, which is why I want to change it.)

    I don’t like how I feel after gossiping about others. But I seem unable to stop myself – it’s like a compulsion. Probably before I can change it, I need to figure out why I’m doing it… but I’m not sure! If anyone has any suggestions on how to break this bad habit, I’d really appreciate it, because willpower alone isn’t helping me.

    1. Dawn*

      Write it all down in a diary or on a blog that only you have access to. Get it out of your system in a way that doesn’t hurt anyone. And maybe seek counseling to get to the bottom of why you have the compulsion in the first place. Good luck!

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      I have been that person.
      My last place of work was really gossipy and bitchy. I don’t quite know how I got out of doing it, but for months in my current job I was overwhelmed with, well, how normal it was. Getting out of the toxic environment does help.
      Is there maybe a way of letting it out when you get home, like writing it out and shredding it?

      1. Self Aware Anoymous*

        I definitely do let it out at home too – usually just venting to my partner. But he’s probably sick of hearing it too. Writing it down and then throwing it away seems like a good idea though.

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          Yes, venting at home helps a lot.

          Also, wasn’t it here I read about the idea of ‘positive gossip’? It’s a really easy habit to start cause you’re still participating in the gossip, but then starting throwing in nice things too.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      #1 It’s good that you can identify the issue in yourself and want to correct it.
      #2 I’ve found that gossiping runs rampant in companies where the culture is very competitive or if there is poor management/oversight. It’s also bad in companies where there is no communication, then all the information you can get comes from gossip.
      Maybe you could find the source of why you want to gossip? Is the gossip about certain people or is it about the workplace?
      Sometime people gossip because they can’t connect with co-workers in other ways. Can you find common interests with your co-workers and talk about those instead?
      Good Luck!

    4. matcha123*

      The places I’ve worked are prone to gossip. I think we all like it when people gather around to listen to something we say. What I do is ask myself if this is something someone needs to know; if it is going to hurt the person I’m talking about and whether or not I think this information will allow people to trust me more or not.

      More often than not, I bite my tongue. If people want to gossip or rant at me, I will listen and sound sympathetic. Honestly, right now I’m sitting on some juicy information that I would love to share, but I’m keeping it to myself because it only serves to scratch the telling itch and nothing else :)

    5. straws*

      I have the same problem some times! I try to catch myself in the moment and say something out loud, like “That was completely uncalled for, I shouldn’t have said that, I’m sorry.” I feel like since I’ve started that, I’ve definitely cut back and it also has the bonus of calling the other person out so they (hopefully) don’t continue gossiping with me in the future!

    6. Anonicorn*

      Been there. This might sound silly, but I used to set “don’t gossip” calendar reminders that opened at the start of each day with messages like, you have control over your own behavior, this is not making you happy, etc.

    7. OriginalEmma*

      Can you replace the mental thoughts with something else? Like a mental rubber-band-snap that jolts you out of automatically speaking just because you need to have your say. Whenever you get the urge to gossip, perhaps you can think “Would I say this to [subject of gossip’s] face? No. Stop.” Or like another commenter posted ages ago, when poster herself started gossiping to another coworker, the other coworker said “Oh, no, I don’t do that.” It really made her think about what she was doing. Perhaps saying “Oh, no, I don’t do that” will help?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Or use a real rubber band snap. Put a hair band on your wrist. Every time you catch yourself thinking about telling someone a juicy thing, yell “Stop!” at yourself in your head and snap it hard. I also second the writing-it-down thing. I used to do that when I was trying to stop complaining at Exjob–I’d open a Notepad document and rant away in it, save it to my flash drive, and take it home at the end of the day.

        .

    8. LillianMcGee*

      People tend to demonize gossip, but it’s actually one of the most powerful ways we bond with other humans. Think about it… don’t you feel closer to someone who just shared with you that interesting tidbit of information? I think gossip is okay, as long as you are not sharing things that are sensitive in nature (like if I do payroll, I’m not gonna gossip about how so-and-so just got a raise), or mean-spirited. Try to imagine the person you’re talking about is eavesdropping in the next room. Say something, but make it kind!

    9. fposte*

      I’m with Lillian. Think about what makes you like gossiping (and boy, do I get it) and see if you can find that another way. I think that’s one of the great things about water-cooler television shows–they give people something to share that’s not about their co-workers.

    10. Jillociraptor*

      Ugh, I hear you. I LOVE to gossip and a lot of my job is being able to pick up rumblings and things heard through the grapevine and translate those into useful information, so I can’t go cold turkey.

      One thing that has really helped me is not just to STOP gossiping, but to try to take on a kind of new persona. For example, when I was feeling really frustrated with my manager (and others were too so there was lots of venting!) rather than going into conversations excited to say “you won’t believe what nutty thing Jane did this week!”, I decided to try to think of myself as an Eminently Reasonable Person who always shows empathy. So I’d go into conversations more ready to say, “Hmm, I wonder if she might have actually meant X.”

      It did NOT change my deep passion for gossip (the struggle is real), but it did help me hone a more professional persona.

    11. Oh gosh - me too!*

      I have just resorted to letting people know to not tell me anything that needs to be a secret. I try very hard to not do negative gossip but it TOUGH. I only try to have positive gossip – only say things that are nice, kind and true but I still slip up from time to time. We all have faults and just realize that you are human, just like everyone else.

    12. Nobody*

      Try to imagine that whoever you’re talking about might be listening in on your conversation — because it could be true. The person could be standing around the corner, or the person you’re talking to could go straight to the person you’re talking about and say, “You’ll never believe what Self Aware Anonymous is saying about you!”

    13. Joey*

      Picture them gossiping about you. Or better picture how you’ll feel if the person were to find out.

      1. Self Aware Anonymous*

        Good point, particularly about how I’d feel if they find out. I immediately feel that sort of regret and sinking feeling in my stomach after gossiping, too.

    14. Sandy*

      Good gossip!

      Hear me out. I had a supervisor once who told me that he made a practice of clamping his mouth shut whenever he heard something bad about someone, but telling it far and wide whenever he heard something good.

      I decided to implement it as my own personal policy a few years ago, and it’s WONDERFUL. You still get the satisfaction of gossiping, but you become known as the positive person around the office and it somehow seems to come back two or threefold.

      Try it!

      1. C Average*

        This! I am all about Good Gossip, too.

        I’ve also set some pretty explicit intentions both internally and externally. I’ve flat-out told colleagues, “Look, this conversation isn’t going anywhere productive. I really don’t want to gossip about Jane, or anyone else, for that matter. Can we change the station?”

        The first few times I did it, I felt like Gallant from “Goofus & Gallant,” but it did work. And now people aren’t as apt to try to gossip with me.

    15. Ashamedgossip*

      I also find it really easy to follow the crowd in a gossipy workplace. And I’m pretty good at shutting down somebody if they try to gossip about someone I like overall, even if it’s someone who has some irritating habits. But if someone complains about someone I don’t like? Sorry, i jump right on that bitch train. My desk is in a room with 9 other people, and we all supervise part time employees who work in clients’ homes, and each client has a clinical supervisor and a coordinator who share supervisory responsibilities. (We are in the office maybe 65-80% of the time, depending on our specific roles, and face to face with clients the rest of the time.) I haven’t heard much gossip about the in office staff, but I am sorry to say we gossip CONSTANTLY about our in-home staff, who are mostly in their 20s and don’t have much work experience. We do talk about the ones who are good, also, but we complain a lot about the ones who aren’t. To me this feels not quite so bad as if we were blatantly backstabbing the people we see every day, but it’s definitely not good. I’m not sure I can give it up cold turkey! But I will definitely try to go as much toward the Nice Gossip as possible.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Some people gain energy from gossiping. If they don’t gossip they do not have energy to get through their workday. What will happen if you don’t gossip?

      A tidbit that is helpful to remember: People are showing you how they talk about you behind your back. And you are showing them how you talk about them behind their backs. Is that how you want them to know you and think of you as being?

      Last thought: This is people’s LIVES. If someone’s son is a big drug addict that is not something good or anything to rejoice over. Some people look at other people’s misery to reassure themselves that they are doing well in this world. I am sorry, but if I have to use this type of information to reassure myself all is well in my life- then I have hit rock bottom.

      We all gossip. Sometimes if I have cross words with someone, I might go to someone else for insight or suggestions. In the process of having this convo, I am gossiping. Other times I find out a friend is not well. So I tell a couple of mutual friends and they check in on the sick friend… and quickly tick-off the sick friend. I just gossiped. I don’t believe that all gossiping can be avoided. I think that your best bet is to go case by case and ask yourself each time, “What is my point in repeating this story?” That question slowed me down a lot.

    17. Sammy J*

      I love office gossiping too! and then I hate myself for doing it! The only thing that helped me was changing jobs to an office that didn’t gossip…. :(

  33. ThatGirl*

    I have a situation at work that I would love some input on.

    I am a co-director of a rather large grant program on the east coast. We have a tiny staff – 4 (myself, my co-director, and two assistants). We are part of a large university and report directly to a VP. A little background about me – I have a MA in a technical field, and got my manager chops on a digital project (managing a staff of 6 in a larger organization of about 30). I don’t really profess to be a great manager, but I am reasonable and work well with others. The two assistants in the office are about my age (mid 30’s) – and we work together quite well. We also employ some students workers for additional tasks. I supervise quote a few of them, and enjoy it – as I like working with college students.

    Perhaps you might be able to see where this is going. My co-director. She is a member of a religious order, is in her 50’s and doesn’t know how to relate to and work with others. (I should add that age and membership to a religious order are not creating an issue – my staff works regularly with members of religious orders who are in their 60’s+ and we love them! – it is definitely a personality issue) She speaks condescendingly to the other staff, throws people under the bus in the blink of an eye, and doesn’t really do any work (aside from attending conferences and walking around campus). Relations in the office are tense and the office staff and the students have pretty much removed themselves from contact with her. She and I recently had a meeting in which she told me that she didn’t understand why people didn’t like her and told me she had no experience working with a team. Since we are co-directors, I didn’t know what to say, but offered her some resources to help her (a few books). I thought about it a bit, and went to my direct supervisor to let her know that this had happened, and to tell her that I thought my co-director could really use a mentor – since she has no management experience and doesn’t know how to work with a team.

    My direct supervisor decided that I should be the one to mentor her, since she opened up the door for me to share people’s complaints about her (I get them all the time). I don’t feel comfortable doing this for a few reasons – mainly because there is already an inter-office popularity contest (created by her, not me – I don’t care a lick about being popular) between us AND I am swamped with work – report writing, budgeting, meetings, etc.

    How do I handle this? I know that my direct supervisor isn’t going to help much more here – I’ve asked before for assistance and received not very much. I would appreciate any input or opinions folks could give me.

    1. My Heart is Breaking Over Maybe Having to Leave My Job*

      Honestly, I think you should be honest with your direct supervisor and tell her that based on the conversation you already gave her some direction, and you’re not quite sure that a peer is the right person to do this kind of mentoring. Though, she has opened up to you about this, so maybe you ARE the right person to do this? Maybe she started that ‘popularity contest’ because she feels threatened by you – because she views you as so much more competent than she is, and that’s the only way she could possibly win (though it seems like she’s definitely not winning any popularity contests).

      I really think you should try to give her some direction. Maybe being friendlier towards her in that way would also help to soften some of the tensions in in your office as well? IT really could be an issue that she feels threatened by the fact that you’re younger, and you’re her peer. I think it could be worth a shot.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I did tell my manager that I thought it would be inappropriate and probably not go over very well. She then said she would think about finding her a mentor outside the department – which means nothing will happen.

        I agree with trying to soften some of the tensions. I’ve been trying to make small interpersonal connections – little icebreakers here and there to get people more comfortable with her and to get her more comfortable socializing. She doesn’t know how to socialize – and tends to creep up to people (and conversations) standing there awkwardly behind them. I figured if people knew a little more about each other – it might make conversation easier.

    2. fposte*

      Ugh. I’m with you on it being a bad idea for you to be her mentor–that’s a relationship with some power discrepancy that you shouldn’t have with a co-director. I also wonder if what your co-director is going to think of the idea–if she rejects it outright (which I couldn’t blame her for doing), maybe that would be something you could take back to your supervisor.

      But if she’s actually willing to buy in and you do end up having to do it, I’d say you’re entitled to make it work for you as much as you can, given the obstacles you describe. A chat over lunch once a month where you focus on a certain aspect of professionalism and note how people respond to different approaches, maybe? And then give yourself permission to leave it alone in the meantime?

      1. ThatGirl*

        I have to say that I would think she would be embarrassed to have me mentor her – given our age and the power demographics in the office.

        I also should say that I’ve been on the receiving end of her abuse. She tends to like to make me look stupid in meetings – which doesn’t bother me, since I know most of our staff and consultants know that I am smarter than she tries to make me out to be. I am, however, slightly resentful to help someone who has been so cruel to me.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      Skipping over the mentorship piece for now (totally concur with fposte on that), would it be possible to divide the job duties between you so that you are the primary “people manager” and your co-director handles some other aspect of the department?

      I don’t know how (or if) you’d bring this up to the powers that be, but is there a reason this is a co-directorship? Does this other person bring some historical knowledge, contacts, something that the department particularly values?

      1. ThatGirl*

        We are a co-directorship because she has specialized knowledge (being a member of a religious order) that I do not. Our boss likes this dual leader model – and we actually interviewed together in the third round to make sure we were a good fit, so to speak. Also, I have the real world experience of project management, which she does not (phd in management, tho).

        I am, technically, the manager of the entire unit – all of the people report to me (staff, consultants, students, etc). That doesn’t bar her from requesting that they do tasks for her – and that is where her interpersonal skills fail. We tried creating a project request sheet that all staff use when requesting assistance with a task. She doesn’t complete them properly – and any request to have her give them more information is met with a huffy “I don’t have time for that – I could just do it myself.”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I agree that you are probably not the one to mentor her.

      Does she even want to fix the problem?

      I am not there, so I do not see the many aspects of this question. Is there some way you can give her a little corner of the project and tell her that is her part? It could come down to this because she is basically killing your efforts, not contributing and does not seem to be wanting to fix any off this.

      OTH, you could try mentoring her, document the results and report back to your boss. I do think you have an opening here in that you could say, “You mentioned the other day that you felt no one liked you. If you want to change that, I am willing to help.”

      OR Why not get her Alison’s book on managing???

      1. ThatGirl*

        My boyfriend’s mom pointed out to me that if my co-director really wanted to fix the problem, she could take advantage of many of the workshops offered in our women in leadership program.

        Honestly, I don’t think she wants to fix the problem and be a manager. What I think she does want to fix is how unpopular she is in the office. She wants to be popular and well liked in the office, not actually learn how to function as a team member and a leader. The irony is that, I am terribly awkward and introverted socially, but can lead a team fairly decently. I couldn’t teach her to be popular if it killed me.

        When we started this co-directorship, my mentor encouraged me to clearly divide and set expectations with my co-director so that leadership was clearly outlined and defined. We have 4 initiatives we are working on – we agreed to do 1 of them as a team, my co-director and I each took our own, and gave the last one to our technical assistant. Once she figured out what she had actually signed up for – she panicked, said she couldn’t do it, and it got passed to our boss to complete.

        Honestly, I don’t have anything left to give her. I successfully manage my initiative, balance the budget and write reports, and am currently working on a new project proposal. She won’t work with numbers and is a terrible writer. You can probably sense my frustration – as our grant runs for 3 years, and we are halfway through it and my pile of work just keeps getting bigger and bigger, while she takes laps around our office building because she is bored.

        I should probably give her Alison’s book. This blog has helped me so much as a manager. It might help!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          She wants a new car without the monthly payments. Meanwhile, the rest of us all make monthly payments.
          What gets me here is that it’s not your job to fix her. Yet here you are. If you do get her Alison’s book, just tell her this is what managers do to become liked/respected.

          Uh… I don’t usually suggest stuff like this but she is a nun. Can you ask another nun for prayers on this situation? I have seen that work when nothing else does. Could be me though.

    5. SC in SC*

      I would offer that any investment in mentoring your co-director will hopefully pay dividends in the long run. Currently, the person you should share workload and responsibilities with is contributing nothing. Even worse, they’re a drain on your time since you have to deal with issues and complaints. Assuming that the mentoring will take, you’ll eventually get a co-worker you can share responsibilities with. This should have a ripple effect and hopefully correct some of the other issues. It’s the same concept of why it’s so important to develop your people. One thing you have going for you is that your co-worker recognizes that there’s a problem and wants to fix it. That’s half the battle right there. Based on what you described and that she came to you looking for help, it sounds like this is more a matter her not knowing what to do as opposed to not wanting to fix the problem.

      One thing to keep in mind that mentoring can take on many different roles and styles. This doesn’t have to be a formal relationship. Peer to peer mentoring can be just as effective. If I were in this situation, I’d see about scheduling regular one on one sessions to discuss sharing responsibilities but also use that time to discuss work culture, people interactions, etc. If you can help this person become a functioning co-director you’ll have someone you can push work to, you’ll stop having to deal with complaints, you’ll have a happier and more effective group and the popularity contest dynamic will fade away. It’s worth the effort.

  34. Good_Intentions*

    New Job Jitters

    Okay, Alison’s great advice helped me secure a fantastic job that is several levels above my previous position. I’m a fidgety combination of excited and nervous for Monday, my first day on the job.

    AAM commentariat, please share any tips you may have to cope with the stress leading up to starting a new job. Also, do you have any tips to prep the day before (go to bed early, lay out clothes and accessories, pack lunch the night before, etc.).

    Again, I’m incredibly eager to start this new chapter of my professional life, but I am seeking advice from the many talented people on this thread.

    Thanks!

    1. Dasha*

      It’s totally normal to feel nervous. I bet once you get there and get started you’ll feel better. My advice is don’t be too hard on yourself and give yourself time to learn where everything is, what everyone’s name is, and of course the new job! Congrats on your new job! :)

    2. ThatGirl*

      They selected you because you were the best candidate – that means that you’ve got the skills and the personality to be successful there – congrats!

      Although this isn’t a first day tip, I always like to listen, listen, listen when I start a new job. The more you can learn about the people that you are working with and the environment that you are working in, the easier the transition!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Agreed–they WANT you to succeed!

        Listening is good and even taking notes if you feel like you need to. I know when I start a job, everything is just a jumble, and notes help me slow down in the moment and pay better attention.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Nervous is not only normal, it can be good! If you go in too calm and thinking you already know everything… you wouldn’t. :)

      Practical: plan your outfit in advance, and have a backup just in case, and wear shoes that are relatively comfortable so you can walk around. Make sure you do the commute/drive once or twice– there won’t be as much traffic during the weekend, but you’ll want to feel confident that you know the route. Packing lunch the night before is good. Bring a notebook and a pen, maybe some Post-Its.

      Good luck!

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      I say definitely pick out what you’re going to wear, although not necessarily lay it out. Also, make sure you know where to go, and how much time you’ll need to get to the office in morning rush hour traffic, and give yourself a buffer. I would plan to be there 10 minutes early. You might need to park in a different area on your first day, if you parked in visitor parking during your interview(s).

      Congrats and good luck!

    5. Nanc*

      Hopefully they’ll have a great on boarding process, but just in case, have a list of stuff to ask/do to fill the time the first day, especially if it takes a few hours to get your email, phone and computer access set up. For example:
      Where’s the nearest restroom, drinking fountain, emergency exit, office supply cupboard, lunchroom, etc.
      Are there any professional journals or websites to read/review.
      Does the company/product have a LinkedIn group or other type of community you can join to get a handle on the culture.
      Are there SOPs for the job that you can review (and if there aren’t, add it to your list of stuff to create!)
      If there are any special or unfamiliar software programs you’ll be using, ask about tutorials or training.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I make sure I eat substantial meals. Chicken or salmon the night before and eggs for breakfast. I have to get something lasting into me because the jitters will burn right through my food.

      Remind yourself that the first day is a free pass. No one will expect too much from you on the first day. And the second day will be much easier than the first day.

  35. BRR*

    So an update. My meds haven’t helped that much and my work has been pretty bad as a result. I’ve now been placed on probation which is a precursor to a PIP. Even if I somehow manage to get through the quality issue I think it would be a poor choice to try and stay here. My manager will always view me with skepticism and she’s frustrated that I’m not carrying my weight and I’m not sure she’ll forget that (which we have a lot in common because I’m also frustrated that I’m not doing the quality of work I know I’m capable of). I’m going to start job hunting while I still have a job. This process offers me a fair amount of time. I’m just a little lost because I’m not sure if I can do a job well even if my mental illnesses were more in check.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I’m really sorry to hear you’re going through such a tough time. Some mental illnesses have a way of convincing us untrue things are actually true and I wonder if that’s why you’re thinking you couldn’t do a job well, even if your mental illness were in check. Is there any evidence behind that thought? It’s hard not to let a current failure color our views of everything – I do the same thing.

      I do hope your situation gets better and that your meds start to help.

      1. BRR*

        Im going to talk about it with my therapist first tonight then email my old boss who is a great mentor. Sloppy work has been a reoccurring problem and no list of tips on the Internet has helped. I was hoping it could be fixed medically and I’m not sure if it can or that there is plenty of room to try and get my brain back to what I think normal is.

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      I’m sorry :(
      *hug*
      I hope things with your mental health start to get better and that you manage to find another job – it might be better for you, as well.

    3. fposte*

      I’m sorry, BRR. I know you’ve been trying to make things work, and it’s rotten that they’re not. And I’m with CrazyCatLady in thinking that the illness really skews your perspective on your capability, so I doubt that you’re correct there.

      Is there a pattern to your work sloppiness that you can avert in a different field or different position? That might be a workaround in the meantime.

      1. BRR*

        I’m thinking different position. I’ve been here slightly short of two years at least. Also hubby is going to start looking more in his search. He’s been tied to where we live but maybe he can find a job elsewhere now.

      2. BRR*

        Also because I have said medical issues are at play in regards to my performance my boss said hr would contact me but encouraged me to reach out to them sooner.

        I’m wondering if I should ask about an accommodation with moving spaces to some place quieter? There’s really nowhere to go though and being on probation I’m not sure if they would allow me to work at home. Especially when nobody else is allowed to even though we are set up to. I feel like it’s really too late for anything though. I’d really like to take a period of leave but I’m not sure about that either. I feel defeated even if I pass this.

        I’m replying to you because I have always thought of your advice as being amazing and I’m hoping you have email notifications turned on for replies :).

        1. fposte*

          Sorry, I’ve had an all-day work thing today. If your doctor believes a quieter space could well mitigate the problem, I think it’s worth asking for ADA accommodation and you should contact HR ASAP. Where it gets greyer for me is if your doctor is more like “Meh, I don’t know, why not try?” So what has your doctor said? I don’t recall the leave details–I think it came up that you’re eligible for FMLA, though I don’t remember what your PTO supplies are like. Would the household be okay if you took time off unpaid? Do you know if you left after FMLA whether you would have to pay back your part of health premiums for the leave period? And, again, has the therapist has any opinions about the leave idea? Do you think you’d feel relieved at being away from the office, or do you think you’d fill the free time with listening to the bad things depression-brain says about life?

          I’m being kind of noncommittal, I realize, but what I suspect you want to avoid is trying more things that don’t work out; you’re already running toward a narrative that nothing ever will work out, and I think that’s both pernicious and untrue. So I’d be inclined to pick one, and to pick the one that seems likeliest to make me feel better about myself.

          But the other thing I want to say is that even though it may feel like it, it’s really not the end of the world if you get fired, or if you feel better but then leave because your manager still is wary of you. None of this puts you in the category of bad or incompetent person. I think the depression music in your head wants to make this out to be doom, and it’s not.” People fuck up; people have health stuff that impairs their work. It happens to all of us. And it sucks, and we rage and we grieve and we guilt, oh, god, we guilt. But then we find that there’s a lot more happening in our story than that, and it shrinks in the rear-view mirror.

          I know there will be more happening in your story.

            1. QualityControlFreak*

              She’s a bard, our fposte. A great resource and overall awesome person. Many thanks.

          2. BRR*

            Thank you for your thoughts and continued support. Everything is so helpful and beautifully said. I’m going to email HR Monday and ask what my options are. I can get by financial for some time if I take unpaid leave (although short term disability would be nice if I can get it). If I take time off I think it would a nice change versus struggling at work and I would maintain therapy.

            My big fear is that I was fired from my last job (which was also my first) and if I got fired again, trying to job hunt with two jobs and two firings. I’m going to start job hunting to head this off.

    4. brightstar*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this!

      Just wondering, when you say sloppy work is it in the attention to details? Some people just aren’t good at very detail oriented tasks and there’s nothing wrong with that. But it does mean certain jobs aren’t a good fit for them and vice versa.

      1. BRR*

        My job has a lot of report writing. I miss grammatical things, sometimes don’t find all the information I need to put in, and my boss does not like my writing style.

        The grammatical error aspect got better when my meds were working well but has since left. That was a concentration while proof reading. I tend to notice the tiny things in my private life which is why I’m so frustrated I miss a typo. I think it’s a focus while reading thing.

        Fact omission is a concern. I think my head was not clear but I’m not sure if this is where I can’t fix it with medication.

        Writing style is subjective. While she is a good writer I don’t think I’m that bad.

        1. brightstar*

          I hope you and your doctor’s find meds that work for you, and soon. It’s very frustrating to know you could perform better but something is holding you back. I’ve been there in the past where no matter how hard I tried, I kept slipping on things.

          And yeah, writing style is completely subjective.

        2. knitchic79*

          BR have you tried reading your text through a colored divider? You know, the plasticy things that go in binders. I have bad ADD and when I have trouble focusing on text I tape a tinted divider to my screen, or lay it over the paper if it’s printed. I forget the science behind it, but for me it quiets my brain and helps me relax into what I’m doing. It could help you with the grammar issues.
          As for fact omission, it may help there too. As you read through your text try pretending you are the person receiving the report. Write down any questions you have. Then go back and add in any information you can. I have to remind myself of this fairly often. It takes practice but it’s doable.

        3. catsAreCool*

          Something that I’ve done sometimes is to start with a list of the facts that I need to include and then change them into a report. That way, I should have the facts because I started with them.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I am not totally convinced that all of this is “on” you, so to speak. Having seen bosses get on people’s backs and not let up, I am wondering how much of this is bad boss or just a poor boss?

      A while ago I had a boss ride me, to the point she drove me out of the place. Her problem with me was that I am female. That one she hid very well. I would not have known if others had not told me. The problem that I did see is that she thought I was old. I was 45. I believe she was only a few years younger than me. There was nothing, absolutely nothing, I could do that would please her. She wrote me up for things that SHE made up! I did not even argue about the lies- I gave notice and left. I want to work with adults, not children.
      I notice that you are willing to say you did this or that. It sounds like you have spent a good chunk of time thinking about your role in this. But I hope you spend some time considering the boss’ actions and are those actions truly fair? I hope you are not absorbing stuff that is not yours to absorb. It’s an easy pit to fall into.

  36. Audiophile*

    I’m trying to figure out the best way to word something.

    I’ve had an influential person offer to help me, presumably in my job search. I haven’t seen him in a while, so I’d like to send a quick LinkedIn message and say I’d like to take him up on his offer. (I’d said no a few times in the past, because I felt funny about it.)

    Any tips? I’d appreciate it.

    1. Dasha*

      What if you just sent something short and polite? “Hello, X. I’m currently looking for a new position. I know we’ve spoke before about this and if you have any leads/tips/advice I’d greatly appreciate the help.”

    2. Not Today Satan*

      This isn’t an answer to your question, but do you have his email or phone? I don’t think LinkedIn is the best method of communication.

      1. Audiophile*

        I don’t. So I’d have to just wait for him to come back into the building.

        I was thinking of just writing a general, “it’s always a pleasure to see you at x company. I’m not sure when you’ll be in again but I’d like to catch up and chat. ” That way I’m doing the request in person.

        1. fposte*

          But you don’t want to catch up and chat. You want him to help you in your job search. I understand you’re trying not to sound peremptory, but you’re also avoiding being clear :-). I’d draw on Dasha’s wording to include the point in the email.

        2. TNTT*

          No don’t do this. I hate when people reach out to schedule a “chat” and then make the ask in person. Time. Waster. Make the ask in writing so I can evaluate whether I can/want to help you without being put on the spot.

          3. Audiophile*

            The reason for the soft ask, is because I wasn’t entirely sure he was offering to help me search for a job.

            1. Audiophile*

              It was more general. “Let me know if you need anything.” Which I interpreted as an offer to help me job search.

              1. TNTT*

                I think that makes it even more necessary to be direct. Setting up the time just to “chat” not only takes up a much larger chunk of his time but also puts in the position of having to evaluate and respond to your request on the spot. I’d say something like this:

                “It’s always a pleasure to see you at X company. I’m not sure when you might be in again, but I wanted to reach out because I’m beginning a job search. You’ve been a great help to me in the past on other issues. If you have any leads/tips/advice on starting my search I’d greatly appreciate the input.”

                (h/t Dasha for most of that!)

                1. Audiophile*

                  You’re right. I was just nervous I may have misinterpreted the discussion. But the worst that can happen, is he says that’s not what he meant.

                  Thanks for the help all. Dasha, TNIT and fposte especially.

                  I’ll unfortunately have to do this all via LinkedIn message because I don’t have his email or phone number. And I keep missing him when he comes into the building.

                2. TNTT*

                  It will work out, I’m sure! And hey, at least it’s way less awkward for you to realize you misinterpreted his intent via LinkedIn than while sitting in front of him in a coffee shop!

                3. Audiophile*

                  Lol that’s very true!

                  I’m pretty sure I’m not wrong, but you know how the doubt starts to creep up on you.

  37. Fed Up*

    I’m really fed up with my coworkers’ noise and chatter and really unprofessional antics (for example, one coworker reads out inappropriate Tinder messages she gets). I work in an open area with other people in similar roles. It’s really taking a toll on me to the point where I have to go the bathroom to get away. I’ve addressed the issue with my manager and she’s talked to the others, and for a while it’ll get better but they’ll just lapse back to what they do before. I wear headphones, but it’s uncomfortable for long hours and I feel like if I’m just isolating myself, I might as well go work in a quiet room (which I’ve also proposed to my supervisor). Anyway, it’s gotten to the point where I just feel depressed at work and I’ve made counseling appointments for work stress. I feel like quitting but it’s a good job (I like a lot about it, just not my coworkers), so I want to figure out how to handle it. Any advice, suggestions, similar stories? I really don’t want to be the quitter who leaves a perfectly fine job because of coworkers she can’t stand, but it’s really bringing me down.

    1. Dasha*

      Have you asked your coworker if she could maybe quiet it down? Alison gives great wording (very polite but very direct) for these sorts of requests. If they’re being loud I don’t think it is inappropriate for you to ask them to tone it down.

      1. Fed Up*

        I have, and they will tone it down. But after a while, they’ll get excited over something and return back to the way they are. It’s just the way they are used to–they’ve been like this for years before I joined, so it’s not intentional.

        1. Abc123*

          Is the problem just one or two coworkers in particular or is it the entire office? Is there anyone else there who shares your frustrations? If it’s just a particularly chatty/informal culture, there may not be all that much you can do.

          1. Fed Up*

            It’s all 3 of my coworkers that are super chatty. When I addressed it with my superiors, they also feel that the chatter has gotten out of hand. The other departments with open space do talk but don’t have ongoing chatter. It is a casual, friendly office, but my area is quite homogenous, which is what causes the nonstop chatter.

            1. Natalie*

              Is there anything you can do environmentally? Move to the farthest away spot in the open area? Wear headphones? Get one of those canopies for your cube from ThinkGeek?

      2. cuppa*

        I don’t know if this is something you’re interested in doing, but are there parts of the conversation where you could join in to build a rapport? Obviously, if you don’t want to join in with Tinder messages, I totally get that. But, if they are talking about a new restaurant, or a hobby, or weekend plans, or something like that, maybe joining in politely for a few moments and then letting them know you have to get back to work can help. It might also give you more leverage when there’s an uncomfortable topic.

        1. Fed Up*

          I tried piping up every now and then at the start, but they’re quite cliquey from years of working together. I’m also just not interested in what they’re interested in or talk about, and I really don’t want to pick up their interests, like watch the TV shows they watch that I don’t care about just to try to fit in.

          1. catsAreCool*

            Can they move you to another part of the building? That seems like the easiest way to deal with it.

    3. Celeste*

      Can you see about moving to the farthest edge if there is no quiet room you can be moved to? Sometimes just having it be background noise helps to tune it out. Being right on top of it is the worst. It’s not like you’re ever going to be close with them, so I don’t think they’ll miss you. I’m guessing everybody seems to get their stuff done and the public doesn’t see them, so it’s a low priority for management to intervene much.

      But you might just be a person who needs a quieter environment, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. I certainly prefer it. If you can work out a move to the quiet room, I say do it. You can always schedule breaks to come out and socialize, or invite somebody in for a bit. It does not have to mean isolating yourself. I think a change of venue will work wonders, and will be a lot easier than trying to make other people fix what they don’t even think is broken.

      1. Spiky Plant*

        Yeah, it sounds like that’s just the culture of the place. An individual that doesn’t have backup from leadership can’t change culture. You either thrive, adapt (like going to a quiet room), or unfortunately leave.

        1. Windchime*

          Yep. We used to have this problem in the group that I am in. It was awful; there were about a half-dozen people that spent 90% of their day chatting and laughing and goofing off. Most of them actually didn’t have enough work to do, so they were bored and spent the time visiting. Their supervisor was one of the people who was the main culprit; he would hang around in his employees’ cubes and tell stores and laugh. For hours. It drove me crazy. But when the layoffs came, that was the group that took the biggest hit and the chatters are all gone. Normally stories like this don’t have a happy ending, but our room is nice and quiet now.

  38. Overthinking Anon*

    I did my Skype interview this week and, guess what! I’m overthinking it now. :P I think I did respectably enough but I’m now second-guessing a bunch of parts of my answers, or the kinds of examples I chose–it’s hard to both answer questions and maintain an awareness of the overall picture you’re presenting simultaneously! Now I’m trying to let it go (let it goooo), but it’s hard because there aren’t a lot of job openings that are right for me to apply to, so each one seems like a precious resource. Chin up, though–it’s Friday.

      1. Overthinking Anon*

        In person is good! I’ll keep my fingers crossed too. I sent a thank you email and got a friendly reply.

  39. LizB*

    A minor vent/WTF:

    My housemate can be somewhat… naive about how the world works, shall we say. She’s worked a particular seasonal position for several years, and this year has also had a full-time job that takes place mostly during that job’s off-season, but also overlaps a little bit with the beginning of their active time. Apparently she just asked her Full Time Job boss for 12 (unpaid, mostly nonconsecutive) days off during this month and next month so she can attend some required trainings for Seasonal Job, and he approved 3 of the 12 days (it’s a busy time at Full Time Job and they need her there). Last night she asked me, “If I just take the other days anyway, is he going to fire me?”

    …I couldn’t even answer, because to me, it’s obvious that the answer is YES! If you don’t show up for work on NINE DAYS during a two-month period, you are likely to get fired. She seems to think this situation is very unfair and he should give her all the days off because she needs to train for Seasonal Job, but my opinion is that life isn’t fair. I might be being too harsh though, so, wise AAM commenters: what say you?

    1. TCO*

      Oh, you’re totally in the right. 12 days off, paid or not, is more than many people take in an entire year (sick leave excluded). Some managers probably would allow this, but it’s entirely reasonable not to during the busy season.

    2. The IT Manager*

      Your mental repsonse is not too harsh. That level of cluelessness and naivety is frustrating.

      And if you can answer less sarcatically than I would, it would be doing her a service to tell her that if you skip out on 9 days of work you are likely to get fired. But it’s hard because frustrating especially if I were depneding on her for her part of the rent.

      1. Cordelia Naismith*

        Heck, if you skip out on one day of work, you’re likely to get fired. You can’t just not show up because you have something else you’d rather do instead.

    3. Adam*

      I’m not even sure that “Life isn’t fair” even applies here. When you accept a job you make a commitment to it and unless they are on completely different operating schedules or have some reasonable accommodations you can’t do another job at the same time. In the end you have to choose.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      I posted this as a comment in someone else’s thread, but I wanted to throw it out to the masses as well. My husband has been working in retail for about 15 years – he had an 18 month stint as a church youth director about 10 years ago (which was his long term career plan but things went south when the church hired a new minister, which soured him on the work, and here we are today) – and is getting super, super burnt out on selling as well as the bureaucracy of working for a behemoth multinational company. He is the assistant manager at his store and has filled in as interim store manager on multiple occasions (the store is hiring its fourth manager in four years, and no, they’ve already told him he won’t be considered?? Thank you, bureaucracy).

      Anyway, he wants to get out of retail. He wants to “help people without having to sell things to them”. He has management experience. He does not want to go back to school. What fields/jobs should he be looking into?

      2. Sheepla*

        This may sound odd, but I knew two different people who transitioned from years of retail work to a college admissions counselor. I have no idea what skill sets were transferable between those two jobs, but somehow it worked.

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          Oh, I totally forgot he did that for a year, too. Of course, it was for UOP which means it involved the worst of the hard core sales tactics (you never gave up until they hung up on you). I’m sure working for a school that isn’t all about the dollar signs would be a better deal.

      3. Kay*

        Customer service maybe? Depending on the company and field can move up into an account coordinator/management role after a year or two, and it can pay well

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Not too harsh at all. I’d tell her that for most jobs, one or two unexcused absences can lead to punitive action, up to and including dismissal, especially if she’s asked for the time off and been denied. A second job should never interfere with your first job, or your second job may become your only job.

    6. EvilQueenRegina*

      While I’m from England where we get more time off allowed anyway so the idea of 12 days itself doesn’t shock me, if her manager only approved three days and she takes the rest regardless then yes I can see her getting fired. We had someone at my place ask for time she wasn’t entitled to, get it refused, ask for the time unpaid, still get it refused, then no call no show anyway. She never returned to the job but had the cheek to ask for a reference.

  40. gloria*

    Yesterday at an interview for a job I’d be thrilled to get, the person interviewing me told me I write great cover letter. I think at this point no one needs any more evidence in favor of Alison’s advice, but I thought I’d share! (I have another interview with them on Tuesday, so cross your fingers for me!)

    1. TCO*

      At the job I started about 8 months ago, one of the EDITORS I interviewed with complimented my cover letter! I thought that was high praise from a great writer. Alison’s advice definitely works. Good luck!

  41. Sunflower*

    So is anyone familiar with Mike Brzezinski and the ‘Know Your Value’ tour? I debated the value of going with a $225 price tag. This agenda included three topics- all geared towards women: how to get the money you deserve, how to ‘have it all’ and how to display confidence. Curious what people’s thoughts are on these sorts of conferences? I assume the main point really is to network at these?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m not familiar with him or his philosophies, but my first thought is the main point of these conferences is to make money for the person organizing them. I’d look at this one with a healthy dose of skepticism before parting with that much money.

    2. The IT Manager*

      I’m not familiar with him or his philosophies, but I think it is impossible to “have it all” (you must mak compromises) so I wouldn;t want to spend money on this unless I knew more.

    3. Audiophile*

      I’ve seen more than a few of these conferences, and they always make me chuckle. I’m going to charge $300 and tell you stuff you probably already know. Don’t ask me for a refund, because I don’t offer them.

      All jokes aside, if you think you’ll get some value out of it, try it. But at this point, they’re all noise.

    4. Sunflower*

      Sorry that was a typo- Mike should be MIKA- she’s a woman. She is also a TV host/reporter. I read her book by the same name and there was some good information in there on negotiating and confidence and the list of speakers was impressive in the sense that she had many high-powered men and women. But I really was not sure what the heck the need for a big conference was since I think the majority of the valuable stuff was in the book and if it’s not industry specific, a lot of it is just vague ‘yes keep trying’ types of advice

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        Oh, I know who you’re talking about now. I also read that book. I’m sure the conference is more of a “you get to hear all the same stuff that’s in my book but IN PERSON!!” type deal. I would pass.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Yeah, I agree. What a difference a letter makes sometimes, right? I know exactly who Mika Brzezinski is, and while I like her (most of the time), I wouldn’t pay that much money to hear her talk, especially if this is part of the promotion for her book.

  42. Anonym*

    Calling all successful extroverted introverts for help!
    I have been told by a colleague that I need to be more ‘visible’ at a new job (6 months). The role is a support to other teams (research) and I need to be more clued into what’s happening in other team…. Which I’m not right now :(
    I’m by nature quiet and don’t initiate conversation.. this needs to change but I don’t know how to. Could someone help with the baby steps I could take to break out of my shell and be less awkward about being more ‘social’. Thanks!

    1. Alex*

      What has helped me is to have a set of scripted lines – this sounds weird, but I swear it makes things easier. For example, if I need to insert myself into a project or a department, my standard opening line might be something like “I am excited to be joining the team handling the xyz project, and I’d like to dive right in and get familiarized with the landscape and history of this project. Would you happen to have 30 mins on Thursday afternoon to go over it with me?” And then in that meeting, if it makes sense, propose a 15 minute reoccurring touch-base meeting and get it on the calendars.

      For a team type situation, you could use something similar. “I am excited to be supporting your research team, and I’d love to get a better/deeper understanding of the environment, goals, and opportunities where I can help more. Would you happen to have 30 mins on Thursday afternoon to go over it with me?”

    2. ThatGirl*

      I find it really helpful to be less introverted within the confines of a meeting.

      It might be helpful for you to find out of the other team has a regular meeting that you might be able to attend (ideally regularly). If not, then perhaps you could suggest (as Alex just said) to have a regular status meeting. If you are comfortable leading a meeting (I’m socially introverted, but can be extroverted when I have a purpose – like running a meeting), then you can do little (non-intrusive, non-physical) ice-breakers. I make my team answer a “question of the day” at our meetings (at yesterday’s meeting, I asked everyone “what did you want to be when you grew up?” – the responses were awesome, and really broke the ice and got us moving in the right direction).

    3. OriginalEmma*

      Oh, friend, I feel your pain! But we quiet folk can be taught. :)

      How are you with greetings and small talk? What’s your office culture around information sharing and even just watercooler chat? How often do you see this other team and in what contexts (e.g., only in meetings, passing in the hallway or the caf, etc.)?

      The reason I ask is because simply mingling and asking about how folks are doing and how their work is going can be very helpful in gaining the visibility (and intel) you need. It’s also way less intimidating (in some respects) that a formal one-on-one conversation or a group meeting.

      1. Anonym*

        I’m living on the hope that I can be taught :) otherwise I may as well give up on the job!

        Some teams are friendly some aren’t. So I def need to crack the mingling for intel to succeed. Any tips?

        1. TL -*

          Smile when you see someone in the hallways.

          Seriously. Not a big production, just a quick light-up of the face if you make eye contact. Don’t worry if they don’t smile back – not everyone does or maybe they’re lost in thought. But they’ll associate you with being a friendly person and are more likely to strike up a conversation with you if they’re in a place/time that allows for small talk.

    4. fposte*

      In addition to what others are saying, do some research. Where are other people talking that you aren’t? Are there emailed conversations that you read without contributing to? Whose participation would you like to emulate? Use answers to those to guide some future diving in. You don’t even have to utter brilliant observations–this is where those seemingly meaningless “Thanks, Bob, I learned a lot from that presentation!” notes turn out to be actually meaningful.

      1. Anonym*

        Right now I don’t even know what the other teams talk about and I feel awkward inserting myself uninvited

        1. fposte*

          Well, I didn’t say “what,” I said “where,” including the possibility of email. If you are where the conversations happen, that’s going to get you more information right there.

          But more important to me is the “I feel awkward” thing. Well, of course you do; you’re used to doing things a certain way, and this would make you feel vulnerable. But I don’t know if you can achieve what you’re looking for without being willing to feel awkward and vulnerable sometimes. Additionally, I’ll note that waiting to be invited is a big risk, because it’s likely to leave you where you are as far as being informed about the teams. Small talk scripts are great, but I also think that those are more for social awareness and visibility, and it sounds like you were being told that they also want to see more professional engagement from you. So what I would recommend is that, without being invited :-), you contact the team leads and say you’re looking to be more in the loop so you could support them better. Is there a regular meeting or other opportunity for you to sit in and get a better understanding of their process and needs? [You may have more workplace specific stuff, but the point is–reach out and propose.]

    5. Lizzy*

      Whoa, are me? I just got my first job evaluation (been here close to 5 months), and was told something very similar. In my case, my supervisor, who is the Managing Director, told me to be more clued in on the needs of our Board President during outreach events and to not be afraid to take the lead if necessary. There were other criticisms related to me being too quiet and intense, but the main criticism pertained to me not communicating more diligently with the Board President when I am assisting her at events.

      I am already working on asserting myself more and strengthening my communication skills. I think it is important to pinpoint what makes you hesitant or holds you back from initiating work-related conversation. Me personally? Two reasons: 1.) I tend to be an over sharer and overwhelm coworkers when it comes to talking about work projects, and 2.) I fear coming as brusque or too demanding. But I have to understand that my perceptions are not always how others see things; I see myself as a quiet, hardworking type, but if my critique is telling me to speak up more and ask more questions or take the lead during chaotic moments at our events (oh, and there are plenty at our events), then I have to accept that there is such a thing as being too quiet.

      I hope others can chime too.

      1. Anonym*

        (i) there is such a thing as being too quiet. (/i)
        Yep that’s what is happening with me too!

    6. Beebs the Elder*

      In this case, do you really need to be more “social”? (Not that that’s a bad thing . . . ) If your real task is to find out what’s going on in the other team, I bet if you just ask a few starter questions (take Alex’s advice and pre-plan them) you’ll get people talking all about their project. Your job then is to be a good listener and ask follow up questions–the focus is on the other person/people, not on you, which might make it easier. If you have to reach out to initiate the conversation, again Alex’s advice about framing it as a short meeting to help you better understand their needs is really good. You won’t have to really make small talk at first, just focused job talk, and hopefully that will make it easier to move into more “social” conversation later.

    7. Anonym*

      Thanks everyone, really helpful responses.
      To respond… I see them every day… these are 3 other teams, who I support with whatever research needs they have. I’m actually not a part of any email conversations unless there’s a specific need… which is the problem. I want to be proactive in plugging into opportunities to contribute.
      The mingling that OriginalEmma talks about is key to that from what I can see … so any scripts for that? I find anything less than specific task-related communication to be hard to start and awkward. Sigh. Help pls

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Think about them and just them.

        “How are you today?”
        “How was your ride in, it’s kind of nasty out there.”
        “Did you catch the cake in the break room?”
        “How’s your son’s broken arm doing?”
        “Oh that is a nice ring/bag/skirt, do you mind me asking where you found that?”

        Never forget people love to talk about themselves. After that they love to talk about their families and their things/vacations.

  43. Alex*

    I’d really love to hear any updates or follow-up thoughts from the person who wrote in about hating all kinds of work – OP if you’re out there, I’m sure there are some people on this board that would love to hear from you. :)

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Yes, it was a really thought provoking topic. And the comments were really great…it could have gone in an awful direction, but everyone seemed sympathetic.
      I’m still thinking about the OP’s situation. I even asked my husband if he felt that he could tell me if he hated working.

  44. AnonForThis*

    I recently found out that one of our board members said something pretty awful & insulting to a newer employee about 4 months ago. The information came 2nd hand and confidentially, and I’m not sure what to do with it. Basically, the newer employee is hispanic (born/raised in the US, but does speak fluent Spanish) and the board member, upon meeting her at a company social event, started the conversation by asking if she spoke English. The board member herself is European with a thick accent. She’s sometimes hard to understand and often uses incorrect English, although I don’t see a harmless way of interpreting this comment. The person who brought this to me did so out of concern for the newer employee’s morale & how it affected her view of the company, so I feel like I should do something. I’m not sure what since I’m not supposed to know and she obviously didn’t feel comfortable speaking up in the first place. I supervise her direct boss, so I’m not sure if I should talk to her, her boss, our CEO, or just leave it alone since it was 4 months ago…

    1. KathyGeiss*

      Ugh this is terrible. If this had just happened, I would recommend saying something to the CEO but it was so long ago that I feel like that changes things (even though I can’t think of a good reason why it changes things).

      Do you have a good relationship with your CEO? Maybe you could fill them in so that you can both keep a closer eye on ensuring this sort of thing doesn’t happen again or at least be more aware of micro aggressions that may seem innocuous without this context?

      If anything else happens, is definitely move on it in whatever way is most appropriate in your work environment (talking to the CEO, Hr or directly to the director).

      1. AnonForThis*

        I do have a good relationship with the CEO, but I know he’ll be concerned and probably talk to the employee directly. I’m not sure if that’s the best idea since I’m not even supposed to know, but I know he wouldn’t be able to let it rest. I’m leaning toward just letting it go until something comes up that gives me an appropriate opening.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Just spitballing here: if the board member is from Europe, which is much more linguistically heterogeneous and varied than the US, is it possible she’s just used to meeting a lot of non-English speakers? I know that that doesn’t change the fact that it was somewhat racist assumption, but in the US people throw around accusations of not speaking English as a code for not being a true ‘Murrican, whereas it probably has a very different context in Europe.

      (I learned to say “Excuse me, do you speak English?” in the languages of the countries to which I traveled last year, which amused the locals greatly as they all spoke perfect English, but then I was in very tourist-y areas of northern Europe where English is more of a business necessity.)

      1. AnonForThis*

        I suppose that’s possible. She’s lived in the US for 10+ years though, and the employee has no indicators that she might even know Spanish outside of her appearance. I’m certain it wasn’t malicious, she’s generally a sweet woman, but it’s a damaging statement nonetheless.

        1. Partly Cloudy*

          Jumping off from The Cosmic Avenger’s comment, you said in your original post that the European board member “often uses incorrect English.” Could it be that she actually meant to ask if the employee can speak Spanish and the word “English” accidentally came out instead? I suppose that could be perceived as stereotyping also, but again, cultural differences come into play.

          I was born in Europe (but raised in the US) and my mother STILL has an accent and misuses words after 30+ years of living here.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Okay, the real problem here is that you feel like you are not supposed to know. If you were told directly, then you could proceed through channels to deal with the question.

      Not all confidential information can be kept confidential. That is just the way it is. Go back to the person who told you and tell them that they have put you in an awkward situation. I mean, really, what is the point of telling you if you cannot do something about it?
      Tell your informer that you want to know if there are any further occurrences and you will be going forward at that point. Explain that no how, no way, do you want anyone feeling uncomfortable or worse yet discriminated against. In order for that to happen, you will not be able to keep information confidential and you must be updated if anything further occurs.

  45. Adam*

    Looking for general guidance: what do you typically do when your work enters a slow period? We’re talking days to even weeks of time where there just isn’t a lot to do and when you approach your manager about it the best he can do is shrug and say “Look busy.”

    1. cuppa*

      Continuing education/professional development. Reviewing policies and procedures. Cleaning/organizing your desk. Strategic planning for your role or department. Join a professional organization and get involved. Read trade publications or news. Read AAM :). Good luck!

      1. Adam*

        I’ve been leaning towards professional development/online learning via free sites, but wondered about the ethics of this, especially if I’m learning something not particularly pertinent to my actual job. There really isn’t anything to learn about my job at this point. So I fear it would come across as web surfing. Intelligent web surfing, but still web surfing. Same with reading a book at my desk.

        And I’m running out of things to dust. :P

        1. cuppa*

          To me, if it’s something you can apply to your job or industry, it would be ok, but I get your hesitation.
          And there are always things to dust!! ;)

        2. Natalie*

          If all you’re getting from your manager is “look busy”, I’m not really sure they have the right to complain. But if you’re really concerned, why not run it by your manager first?

    2. Lizabeth*

      Back up the computer, delete files that aren’t needed anymore, clean the desk and file cabinate. After that read professional blogs that relate to your career, and start some online training on something related to your career.

    3. matcha123*

      I read this site; clean my desk; clean my desktop and look over old work and see if there’s areas I could improve.

    4. Laurel Gray*

      1.) Read AAM
      2.) Shuffle papers on your desk
      3.) Write out your grocery list on paper
      4.) Read more AAM
      5.) Write a list of 5 things you would immediately go out and purchase if someone gave you $10k and 60 minutes to spend it
      6.) Shuffle more papers on your desk.
      7.) Get up and go to the filing cabinet, take out papers and bring them to your desk to shuffle
      8.) Write out a list of your top 5 favorite athletes or authors or whatever
      9.) Shuffle more papers on your desk
      10.) Get up and return the files you took from the filing cabinet

      Just kind of repeat this in a vicious cycle. Get up and have a quick chat by the water cooler or coffee pot if applicable.

        1. Kelly L.*

          And then you need to brew more coffee, so you have to go get water to refill the reservoir and then you have to make more coffee…

      3. Calacademic*

        The spending $10k in 60 minutes thing can actually be job related. I keep a running list of “if I had a $1M” for work equipment. If a big shot/VC comes by, I can tell them EXACTLY what would be useful in my position. I even have a folder of quotes.

      5. Afiendishthingy*

        Love it!! Unfortunately I hit a lull in my workload last month but we’re still supposed to log a certain number of billable hours and these activities wouldn’t qualify. (Wouldn’t be a big deal except I’ve had a run of low productivity months… I am trying to improve my time management skills but it’s a work in progress. Did a LOT of stuff Monday-Wednesday this week (especially Wednesday), less yesterday (and felt totally brain dead and fried the whole time), and I’ve spent the last hour and a half on AAM…

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Read AAM. Fall down the archive hole. Read online articles. The trick here is that reading articles online is less obvious than online shopping, though I’ve done that too.

      Cleaning up files and calendars is a good use of time too.

    6. Xarcady*

      There are a lot of free online tutorials for most software. I’ve found these very useful for filling up time. And every so often, I get to use some of what I’ve learned, so it can be useful in a work-related way, as well.

      My problem is that during busy times, I can think of a million projects to do around the office–clear out specific files, scan documents and then shred them, clear out cubicles where no one sits, wash the conference room windows, start an office newsletter–but the second it gets slow, all these wonderful things escape my brain and I’m lost. So now I keep a list of them, and use it during downtimes.

    7. Editrix*

      Add RSS feeds to your outlook (if you have it) to read blogs but have it look like work. Works for AAM too.

    8. S*

      That happened to me a couple months ago. I read a lot of news articles during that time; I work at a political non-profit that advocates for a contentious issue, so I caught up with my Politico/The Hill reading… the way I saw it, it was professional development (and senior staff is always talking about the importance of being informed, especially for my department).

      I also tried to schedule 1:1s with other co-workers that I wanted to learn from who were also in the same sort of lull. Nothing long, just a quick 15 minute coffee chat or 10 mins in an empty conference room, just to share ideas. It helped me build my rapport with other departments and co-workers, so when my work picked up again, it was so much easier to communicate across departments!

    9. ThatOneRedhead*

      You can also get books as PDF files. Sometimes if you want to read, but look busy, this is a good option.

    10. Afiendishthingy*

      Are there any processes you could streamline or improve? Materials you could create? Checklists, tables? Anything you could laminate? Laminate EVERYTHING

    11. Libretta*

      Kindle for PC/Mac – all text, no pictures, looks like work! Though I agree with the productive suggestions above. :)

    12. catsAreCool*

      I have very rarely had extra time at my job, but on those rare occasions, I work on updating and writing documentation so that when it gets busier, we can use this documentation to help people more quickly.

      Training and learning new things are also good.

  46. variety*

    Was wondering if anyone had any experience in applying for jobs through Berkshire Hathaway’s online portal. My daughter is a sports reporter looking to move on from her current employer. Most of the jobs she has seen are part of the BH family and all use the same system. It’s one of those where you can change what you have inputted but can’t keep more than 1 presence, ie, no multiple cover letters. So far all she’s ever gotten is the standard ‘we have received your application’ response. Her has gotten her interviews with other papers but nothing from BH. Assuming she is just as qualified as the next person is there something she should/could do to get her through to the hiring managers?

  47. KathyGeiss*

    No question. Just a vent and a confession.
    I had an unprofessional moment this week. A colleague told me to stop being so “emotional”. I frequently joke around with this colleague and he intended it to be light hearted but this is the third time he’s said that to me and I snapped. I told him not to use that word because it was sexist and delegitimized my totally reasonable request.
    I’m totally comfortable with my response. But! I told him this in the middle of an open-plan office. I should have pulled him aside for a more private discussion but I was so mad I sort of lost my head (I didn’t yell but I did speak firmly).

    The irritating part is that he doesn’t get it. He says he will try to remember not to say that anymore but he doesn’t understand why (even after I explained it). Ugh.

    1. Adam*

      I inadvertently eavesdropped on a similar conversation at a former job. Two female coworkers were talking right outside my cubicle and while I don’t know what one said that triggered the other, she went into a very stern mini-lecture about being careful with assuming and racial biases. This person’s job is centered on promoting diversity within the organization so she had the ability to go on for quite some time if she wanted to, but thankfully it was brief because I felt really awkward for my coworker. She’s normally a very sweet agreeable person so I have no idea what could have been said that would prompt such a reaction and I never asked since it very much felt like none of my business.

      The kicker is that there was a very small empty meeting room with a door five feet away from them, so it would have been easy to make this conversation much more private.

    2. cuppa*

      I had a similar moment last week. I totally get how you’re feeling, and although I feel that I was justified in my response, I shouldn’t have engaged and I did. I did the same thing you did — I didn’t yell but I spoke more firmly than I should have.
      I already knew this about myself, but I was reminded again that I bottle things until I get pushed too far and then I lose my head. I’m still working on ways to not do that. (If anyone has any suggestions, I’m open to them; nothing’s worked for me so far!) It doesn’t help that there are a few frustrations with my job right now that are stressful and I’m nearing burnout.
      I totally get what you’re saying about the person not getting it, ugh. I think that’s why I ‘m the most frustrated that I engaged — if they had gotten it, it would have been worth it, but it didn’t work out that way. Keeping that lesson for next time. :)

    3. erd*

      Good for you! I agree it would have been preferable to pull him aside and speak to him privately, but I also don’t think it’s completely unprofessional to have the conversation within hearing distance of others. Maybe others will learn, even if he didn’t, and you might have inspired someone to speak up in the future about sexist (or other inappropriate) comments.

    4. catsAreCool*

      I don’t know why some people tell other people to stop being so emotional. If I’m feeling very emotional, being told to stop just makes it worse. I don’t think it makes sense to tell people to stop feeling what they are feeling.

  48. anonima in tejas*

    what are other management/work/best practices blogs that you read?

    I started reading Road Warrior, Corporette, and Capital Hill Style. I could use a few others on management, working well, etc.

  49. Lionness*

    I am hoping for a bit of advice. I don’t normally post, but I always love reading these!

    I am in my first supervisor job. I have a small team that I manage and one person is causing a bit of a headache for the other two. They are all high performers but one, we’ll call her Megan, is a complainer. It is almost like a stream of consciousness all day. Every day. And it is exhausting her team mates. I’ve discussed it with Megan before and the issue seems to be that she doesn’t see it as complaints, just commentary.

    I’ve tried have a direct conversation about it, explaining how it is impacting the team (interrupting their work, impacting morale, etc) but it doesn’t seem to be working. Does anyone have any thoughts on how I can address this in a way that maybe I haven’t thought of?

    1. cuppa*

      One thing that worked for me was telling the person that comments needed to be constructive and related to her work. In this case, she was complaining about everything and everyone and the negativity was draining. I told her to stay focused on her own work and not the work of others, and no complaining just for the sake of complaining, and then I held her to that. It helped. I think a similar expectation needs to be set here. Good luck.

      1. Sadsack*

        That sounds like good advice. Lionness, maybe telling your employee that it doesn’t matter whether she considers her complaining to just be commentary. It is having a negative impact on the other employees, so she needs to stop.

    3. Laurel Gray*

      I had a coworker who had this criticism (it was true) in her performance evaluation and guess what she went around the office doing after? COMPLAINING. Sadsack is right, there needs to be a consequence in place.

      Is there a such thing as a PIP for attitude? Sometimes the directness and borderline snark of telling someone that they have options that include finding employment elsewhere has to be an option. Megan has to know that her “commentary” is not going to bring any change or awareness and only makes her come off as a nuisance.

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        I had one once who was asked to tone down the oversharing about her ailments and her exes in the office. It just resulted in a rant about how dare our manager ask her to stop it. She definitely needed a consequence.

    4. River*

      Have you told her directly to stop it? Not justifying, not explaining, not discussing, just telling her that it has to stop? And that there will be consequences for her continued employment if she doesn’t stop it? (And can you back that up with actual consequences?)

      It doesn’t matter if it’s complaining or commentary, it’s a problem for your team and she has to stop it. Don’t get drawn into discussing it!

    5. brightstar*

      You need to be clear with her that the comments need to stop despite that she sees no harm in it. Discuss possible repercussions with her, whether it is moving to warning her in writing, etc. Stay on top of it and document these things (also document the good things).

    6. C Average*

      I sort of think that people like this need to be given immediate consequences, just like puppies being house-trained. For instance:

      MEGAN: Blah blah blah oh bother blah blah blah . . .

      LIONNESS: Megan, can I see you in my office, please?

      [MEGAN and LIONNESS step into office.]

      LIONNESS: I’ve spoken with you before about the fact that I’d like to see a more constructive attitude from you. The comment you just made was the kind of thing I meant. It’s fine for you to feel any way you want to, but for the sake of office morale, I need you to develop a better filter. I do not want to hear similar comments from you again. Are we clear?

      Repeat as needed.

      3. catsAreCool*

        Yeah, what C Average said. The negative person might not realize how negative she’s being. I’ve worked near a negative person, and it really exhausted me, even though that person wasn’t negative all the time.

    7. Violet Rose*

      Ack, I used to be like this! Things I thought of as harmless or silly observations sounded way harsher and more complaint to everyone else around me. I don’t remember how I caught on, but it probably involved hearing a lot of “do you really not like this show?” or “I didn’t think it was that bad.” I’m pretty sure I got this habit from my mom, as she does the exact same thing – it used to cause a lot of fights, but now I simply remind myself that no, she’s not mocking my interests, that’s just her way of making conversation and showing interest :)

      Anyway, echoing C Average to point out examples of negative comments as she says them – it may trigger a lightbulb moment, it may not, but at least it’ll teach her what you (all) don’t want to hear! You could also tell her that her entire internal monologue – whether she sees it as negative or neutral – should STAY internal.

  50. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    My boss continues on his parade of poor management–today we have a supplier from another province stopping by briefly to chat with us. My boss says he doesn’t want to talk to him because he’s afraid the supplier will be irritated with us, so he told my coworker “Tell him I went to lunch with my wife and couldn’t see him.” Except…they talked this morning and my boss said “Sure, stop by!” Therefore making my coworker look like an idiot.

    We’re also still all waiting on tenterhooks to see if the deal goes through where if it does–we get to stay open and make a profit! If it doesn’t–we close because we definitely don’t have a quarter million lying around.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Well, the coworker doesn’t look so much like an idiot, more your boss. Even if the supplier sees your boss in his office, I’m sure they’ll think the poor coworker is just the messenger of stupid, not the source.

  51. A Nonnus Mousus*

    This is less of a question question and more of a polling question… For the last few weeks I’ve had a temp directly reporting to me and assisting me while things ramp up in my department. He’s great is many different ways and I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend him to whomever hires him after he leaves here. The weird thing is this: his typing skills are…. not good. He hen-pecks on the keyboard with two fingers and while he does eventually get his thoughts out, it takes much longer than it would if he were a touch-typist. This causes a lot of typos which he needs to go back in and correct since he isn’t looking at the screen when he is typing. Other than that, he’s fantastic! Very quick to learn and open to feedback. I just can’t seem to get past this one thing.

    My question is this: for those of you who are in positions to hire people (As a bit of background, I am in a tech field), would you automatically assume that someone who would be applying for a position that involves a computer would know how to type and/or type fast? I was always under the impression that this was something that was generally considered a requirement. Now I am not so sure. I’ve been endeavoring to help my temp to practice his typing and work to improve since I see it as a necessity, but I’m curious as to the thoughts of the AAM hive-mind.

      1. A Nonnus Mousus*

        I’ve been having him practice in his spare time and I try to guide him when I see him typing incorrectly. One of the things that threw me off were conversations with several different friends/colleagues who told me “Oh, that’s not a requirement. I can’t type either”. Suddenly, I wasn’t sure whether or not I was actually in the majority.

        1. cuppa*

          I think the key is the speed and accuracy here. I’m a Mavis Beacon dropout, but I can still type 45-50 wpm with pretty good accuracy. But, I would probably tell people that “I can’t type”, since I don’t type the proper way. I agree with Alison, it needs to be developed.

          1. SevenSixOne*

            Yeah, I never learned to type the “right” way because I lost a fingertip when I was a baby, but I do all right. I don’t think it matters whether you use all ten fingers with the proper position or you’re a hunt-and-pecker as long as you can type ~30 wpm accurately.

            1. the gold digger*

              How does a baby lose a fingertip?

              I lost a tiny bit of my pinkie after a post-jet lag mandoline/fennel tragedy (where my husband panicked and did not even put the bandaid I had requested on my finger while I was passed out – of course I passed out – there was blood – and so I had to put on my own bandage once I came to), but most people don’t let babies play with mandolines or knives.

              1. SevenSixOne*

                I was in a foldable stroller that wasn’t locked in the open position and my finger got caught in the hinge :/ I only lost the very end of my finger, so now it has no fingerprint and a weird little half-size curved nail that grows over the fingertip.

                1. the gold digger*

                  Oh ouch! Your poor parents.

                  So if you and I ever commit murder together, you will have to wear gloves and I, with my little toe that never touches the ground, so I always leave a four-toed footprint, will have to wear shoes.

        2. Sadsack*

          I am not a great typist, either. I sort of do a combo of touch and hunt/peck! However, I am not in a job where fast typing is really necessary, and I proofread/correct my work. If speed isn’t a priority, he should at least take time to proofread. Is speed really a requirement of his job, or is it just something that you are surprised he lacks? I would think that accuracy is more important, but you’re a better judge, of course.

        3. erd*

          I think lots of people who claim they “can’t type” probably just can’t type very well :) Plus, even if they can’t type, it’s only going to hurt this temp if he can’t either!

          Help him find an online course (I’m betting there are free ones online) rather than just practicing – he has to be practicing the right way to actually get any better at it.

    2. The IT Manager*

      What you described is a problem. I use four fingers to type and a thumb for the space bar and I look at the keyboard, but I type pretty fast. So he doesn’t need to to learn to be a 80 wpm touch typist, but he does need to get his skills up – as cuppa said both speed and accuracy.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yeah, I type with about three fingers and type 70 wpm. :D It horrifies people when they watch, but the job gets done. It doesn’t so much matter how he types as whether he can do the job in a timely and accurate way, whatever hand configuration he uses.

      2. Dr. Johnny Fever*

        If he codes, he might be able to get by – but his skills do need improvement.

        If he’s an analyst or in QA, his lack of typing skills are a dealbreaker. It would be a kindness for you to let him know and give some recommendations for how he can improve. You are not responsible for his improvement. You give him the tools; it’s up to him from there.

        1. catsAreCool*

          What Jonny Fever said. I know some coders who are 2 fingered typists, but they’re fast, so no one worries about it.

    3. The Office Admin*

      I type about 50 WPM but I can’t/don’t type by touch. I use my index fingers and my thumbs.
      That being said, I don’t really make typos or grammar mistakes, so this may be more of him not being conscientious about how important typing correctly is. That’s what you should focus on, not so much his inability to touch type but his inability to correct typos or prevent them.

    4. Partly Cloudy*

      I learned to type in chat rooms and on comment boards. :) I’m sure it’s not the “right” way, but I use most (not all) of my fingers and I was around 50 wpm with 100% accuracy when I last tested myself. It’s much more motivational to practice when you have something vested in the subject matter. Keeping up with online conversations did it for me, and I wasn’t even trying.

    5. Haven't thought of a name yet...*

      I’m a software developer. We have several other devs who peck at the keyboard because they’re new to the US. While the German and Turkish keyboards are similar, it’s dissimilar enough to cause them to “peck” at the keyboard.

      But as a dev, typing fast isn’t a requirement for the job. (You think up the code at a much slower pace than maximum typing speed.) It’s very dependent on role — even in the tech field.

      1. Joline*

        I actually find things like a German keyboard really mess me up just because it is so similar. If it was an entirely different layout I think I’d be better at just learning that layout or watching the keyboard but because it’s just a couple of switches (eg. the Y and the Z are switched) I get really thrown for a loop because I get in a good rhythm and then one of those pops in and it just stymies me completely.

        1. Jen RO*

          I was on a work trip recently and I had to use a French coworker’s laptop… my password contains an a, a q, and numbers. That was a pain…
          (A and Q are switched, and for numbers you had to press Shift.)

    6. Windchime*

      I think that typing accurately is more important that typing quickly, at least in my tech job. One of our best programmers is from another country, so her typing in our languages (English and SQL) is very slow, hunt-and-pec. She still gets more good work done than anyone else. Having said that, Alison is correct in that this seems to be an easily fixable thing.

      Side note: My kids grew up doing online chatting, so they learned to type before they took “keyboarding” class. One of my kids types in the correct “home-row” position; the other has this weird way of typing with three fingers on one hand and two on the other, and he is REALLY fast. It’s so strange to watch. He types by touch, but just in a very strange way.

  52. Blue Anne*

    For the next month, I’m on an assignment where I’m carpooling in with three male colleagues. They’re all nice guys, I get along with them well and we work well together. But there’s some low-level sexism that goes on.

    For example, this morning they were talking about a very competent female manager who recently returned from maternity leave. They mentioned what his husband does, and that he makes a lot of money at it. One colleague said he “doesn’t even know why she works any more.” (Uh, probably the same reasons you do, really.) Another agreed, and said that he thought she’d probably be pregnant again by the end of the year, and also did we know that it’s illegal to ask whether a woman wants kid in an interview in this country?! How crazy!

    Or the other day, on our way out, we passed a woman coming out of the office who was middle aged and dressed in a very “trendy” way. They all talked for a minute about whether she thought she was hot, whether maybe she had once been hot, but it was just sad to keep dressing that way and bleaching your hair when you hit middle age. I just… ugh.

    Plus this is all with the background noise of pop music on the radio, with some current hit song with pretty graphic sex talk and stuff.

    This is getting pretty damn uncomfortable for me but I’m running into the classic bind of say something and be the killjoy feminist who makes everyone uncomfortable, or say nothing and be, you know, the person who enables it.

    How would you guys handle it?

    2. AndersonDarling*

      The “what her husband does” conversation could go either way. I could have that discussion about a man instead of a woman, but I’d do it from the perspective of “If my spouse made that much $$, I’d be watching Judge Judy all day.”
      The discussion about the “hot” lady could be bad, but it depends on how long it went on and exactly what words were used. If it was just in passing, then I would let it go. But it is something to keep note of in case it is the start of a pattern.
      I had a discussion about how hot Harrison Ford was and is still kind of hot…I hope no one overheard and thought the conversation was harassment.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yeeeaaah, but in the context of them speculating about her having more kids and then using that to lead in to shock at not being allowd go ask women about whether they want kids in interview?..

        Personally, I have a lot of trouble imagining that conversation being had about a man.

    3. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      I think you can call them on it without being a “killjoy feminist” – usually I just go with “Really?” with a raised eyebrow. Depending on my relationship with the speaker, I may go a little further – for example, in response to the conversation about the trendy woman, I probably would’ve gone with “Well gee, we better go get her and let her know you guys don’t approve! I mean, the only possible reason a woman could be dressing the way she dresses is to impress men, so we better make sure she knows she’s not up to snuff, right?” if the guys were peers/people I had a work-friend-type relationship with.

      I think you can make it clear what they’re saying is not okay without being a “killjoy” about it with carefully-deployed sarcasm/mild disbelief that they’re even having whatever conversation.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      You have my sympathies. I’m hoping others chime in with better advice, but I’d consider a gentle ‘Guys, that’s not really appropriate’ or maybe ‘You don’t realize it, but that’s really offensive to women.’ Eh? Maybe they’re super open-minded? /wishful thinking

    6. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      Take pride in making them uncomfortable, tbh. They’re clearly not considering how uncomfortable they’re making you, so be that killjoy feminist and be her well.

    7. Christy*

      Be the killjoy feminist who makes everyone uncomfortable. They’ve already made you uncomfortable. They are the problem. Pointing out the problem does not make you the problem.

      2. Blue Anne*

        The things is, I do have to work with them and I do like working with them. I don’t want them to get weird on me.

      3. Anx*

        I know this, but thank you for posting this!

        I’m not sure I’d say anything at work, but I’m probably at a point in my life where I need to stop worrying about making people uncomfortable when they clearly have no compunction about making me uncomfortable when I can afford to upset the apple cart.

        I’ve dabbled in self-assertion recently. I definitely pulled out the “I can’t talk to you about this when you’re being so emotional” line to a bunch of men who get very defensive and illogical about their right to talk about how ugly some of their colleagues were. It was glorious.

    8. Cordelia Naismith*

      Maybe ask the guys if they have kids? “Oh, you do? And you still work? Huh, imagine that.”

      Or maybe not.

    9. literateliz*

      I don’t have any advice, but just wanted to say that I’m surprised to hear this referred to as “low-level” sexism. It sounds pretty appalling to me.

      But then again, the thread about maternity leave from a few days ago (or was it last week’s open thread?) was pretty eye-opening/mind-boggling to me, so I might just be a killjoy feminist myself. :\

      1. Blue Anne*

        The thing is that it’s always so quick. It’s ten seconds in half an hour of chatting in the car. But it’s happening regularly.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Proud killjoy feminist here.

        I’m with you – this doesn’t sound low-level to me. I’d probably say something casually in the moment (along the lines of “I don’t think she’s dressing for your approval”) and then sit down with one or several of them later and mention that it makes you uncomfortable.

    10. Blue Anne*

      I’m actually I’m the car with them right now. So far we’ve had chat about “trannies” in Brazil, and what client fancies which of our femae colleagues.

      Blargh.

      1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

        This sounds made for “are you seriously talking about this right now? Seriously?” in exasperated-big-sister tone.

        1. Blue Anne*

          I’m proud of myself right now. They moved on to talking about the trend for crop-tops and I got in the point that maybe women were wearing them because it’s warm out and they’re more comfortable, and some sarcastic “God yeah, they definitely shouldn’t wear comfy clothes if you don’t want to see it”.

          Point made, weirdness avoided. Need to keep this up.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Nice!

            Also, this sounds increasingly not “low level.” It sounds like it’s taking place on every car ride? Which suggests it’s just their way of being in the world? And they’re comfortable using pejorative slang with work colleagues? Ugh.

          2. Natalie*

            Very, very much YMMV, but would something fairly concise but still kind of “bro-y” and casual work? A la, “Dude, quit being an ass.” Depending on how casual swearing comes across in your workplace.

          4. Clever Name*

            Right on! I think you found just the right tactic. And if they openly assess a woman in front of you, join in. It will probably make them feel uncomfortable, and the best part is if any of them are dumb enough to say anything to you about it, you can be all, “What? You guys were doing it?”

    11. KathyGeiss*

      I agree with others who recommend saying something about it. My advice: keep it casual (many good suggestions already) and then give them an out. Change the subject to something else they can move on to without having to draw attention to what happened.

      Eg. “Really? People work for all sorts of reasons. So, anybody see that hilarious video about the newscaster petting a koala?”

  53. YandO*

    I work for a small firm of 4, where two are the owners (married couple)

    Wife is responsible for payroll. She forgets to pay me (and my co-worker) 2 out of 3 times. Paychecks are a day to two days late. At first she was apologetic, but at this point she is not even that. In fact, she gets annoyed with me for bringing it up.

    I have come to a conclusion that the best thing for my sanity is to not expect a check until two days after the scheduled payday.

    Is there anything else I can/should do?

    1. BRR*

      Is the other person being paid late? Are they within the amount of time they legally have to pay you?

      1. YandO*

        Yes, the other person gets paid late too, sometimes with even bigger gap

        Yes, they are well within the legal limit

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          If they’re within the legal limit, there’s not really much more you can do. I’d just start mentally assuming the payday is whatever your state law says it needs to be. If you get it earlier, let it be a nice surprise.

    2. Jaune Desprez*

      I have zero patience for shenanigans of this nature. I’d probably send her an Outlook reminder two days before every payday: “YandO’s paycheck due Friday.” Also, I’d start job hunting, because this is not a good workplace.

      1. TNTT*

        I worked in a very similar place, and can I just say that this Outlook reminder would have resulted in World War 3, hahahah.

        Is husband aware about the lateness? If not, make sure he is. I think Alison has answered questions in the past about when payments to salaried employees are due in the US and provided helpful scripts for bringing it up.

        And yeah, start job shopping.

        1. YandO*

          TNTT,

          I cc’ed him on a few emails about it. He ignored them.

          I am a salaried non-exempt employee. It’s a mess.

      2. YandO*

        she has calendar reminders that she set up herself, but she is just “too busy” to get it done.

        and I am job hunting like theres is no tomorrow

      1. YandO*

        see, I don’t know how that works. Can’t they say “Our payday is actually Friday and we were paying her Wed to be nice?”

        1. TNTT*

          I can’t from my phone, but you should really try to find Alison’s old posts on this. She explains it well so you can hopefully see if that kind of call would be helpful to you.

          Otherwise, that really stinks and unfortunately I don’t have much better advice than to keep looking for jobs. When the situation got so bad at my place, I left.

          I will say, try to brush off her “getting annoyed” with you when you bring it up. It’s a really serious problem and she’s not doing her job.

    4. Partly Cloudy*

      I call BS on her forgetting. She remembers to pay herself and her husband, and for crying out loud, there are only two other people to remember!

      Definitely start job-hunting.

  54. Meg Murry*

    Anyone have any advice on dealing with imposter syndrome/paranoia when starting a new job? I have a bit of bad job PTSD, and every time my boss says “hey, I want to talk to you” I immediately go to “oh god I’m in trouble. I’m going to get yelled at/repremanded/fired”

    I also have a momentary “uh-oh, are my new coworkers writing about me?” with every new AAM post until I get to a detail that reveal it isn’t me (or that the letter writer is trying to throw me off … but I”m not quite that paranoid yet).

    Any tips besides “keep breathing” and “stop flipping out!”? It hasn’t really interfered too much with my life yet, so I don’t need any major interventions – and “get to therapy” isn’t a choice until my new insurance kicks in in a month or two.

    1. Jill of All Trades*

      Maybe at the end of each day think through the day and make a list of everything you felt you did well, felt proud of, learned, etc. Force yourself to acknowledge your success and development, and you may start to be able to operate from a position of balanced perspective instead of a fearful one. Cause honey, that’s no way to live…

      1. KathyGeiss*

        I like this and to add to it: write those things down. Get a little journal and just write one or two “yay me” thoughts.

        Another tip which may or may not be helpful. For me, fake it till you make it was a real thing. I would give myself a little pep talk before big meetings and if I got called in to see the boss I would say in my head “no big deal; happens all the time”. Even when I didn’t believe it, actively thinking it helped me.

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        So it sounds like you recognize you think this way because of your previous experience, and that it’s not reflective of how your current boss and coworkers see you. Could you try to just catch yourself when these thoughts come up and say to yourself “I’m having an irrational thought” or “that’s the PTSD talking, not current boss (or whoever)”? Don’t beat yourself up for having the thought, just acknowledge it for what it is and move on.

        Also I would write down any positive feedback you get and keep it in a Self Esteem document. And if you’re freaking out about a given situation, imagine a friend telling you the same story about themselves and what you would tell them.

        I hope it gets better soon!

    3. Steve G*

      I would advice to pick up some new hard/technical skills you can mentally use as a crutch when you start to doubt yourself.

      Whenever I feel this way, I learn how to do a new thing or 2 that most people don’t know how to do in Salesforce or in a MS application.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I hate it when I cannot shake that off.

      Someone explained this to me, it should have been obvious to me but it wasn’t. I was too busy worrying for it to be obvious. Let’s say that the boss called you in the office to ream you ten times. (We need a number, will pick ten just to keep rolling along here.) So what that means is it might be that you have to be called into the boss’ office 20-30 times for good conversations before you are able to shift the bad conversations to the back burner.
      It’s not an instant fix. And sometimes, it takes much longer than we’d like. Here’s something you can hang on to- just as you do not want the boss assuming you are a silly bumbling worker you can’t assume the boss is a screamin’ demon. Tell yourself that you have to give people a chance to prove themselves, just like you want a chance to prove yourself. This helped me sometimes.

  55. GrumpityGrump*

    An update from my post a couple of weeks ago re: the impending leadership retreat I was dreading. I survived. I did enjoy getting to know everyone else, I did not enjoy all the outdoor team building games, I did enjoy some delicious food and great scenery, I will never enjoy sleeping in a large room with many other people.

    I am a certified introvert, but I did the thing, opted out when I felt I really needed to (it was “challenge by choice”), and am very glad to have it behind me. If anyone else has something similarly uncomfortable looming, I’ll be your biggest cheerleader. From an anonymous, introvert-friendly distance.

    1. Alex*

      Haha loved this update – I have a pending activity I’m dreading in a few weeks that includes “team building watersports”.. in bathing suits, with coworkers, competing against the executives.. *cringe*.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I have a sportsing game coming up for work. I reaaally don’t want to go because I’m introverted and don’t want to socialize, and I’m suffering from a huge sports overload lately. Sigh. I’m really hoping there at least will be hot dogs.

    3. C Average*

      Congratulations on your survival!

      I am working out the last week of my notice period just at the time discussion has started picking up about all the Fun! Group! Activities! that will be occurring during my soon-to-be-former team’s global summit this summer. It’s making me very happy about my decision to leave the company to go freelance. :)

    4. Partly Cloudy*

      “…I will never enjoy sleeping in a large room with many other people.”

      THIS.

      Not that the other stuff is how I would choose to spend my time, but the shared sleeping quarters… [shudder]. Why why why do members of management think this is a good idea? Introverts NEED our alone time.

    5. GrumpityGrump*

      You are all definitely my kind of people! One thing that helped me was bonding a bit with another introvert who was having an even harder time than I was. We paired up where possible in group activities and literally hauled each other through.

      May you each find an understanding ally at your events! Especially where bathing suits are involved: that one gave me the vapors for a few minutes. At times like those I just try to remind myself that even if it feels like eternity in the moment, no day has more than 24 hours, and it will pass and be history soon.

  56. LOtheAdmin*

    Perfect timing!

    Here’s the story. I interviewed yesterday at a high end hot air balloon place this week. My job would be as an office assistant. As part of the interview process, I was told that myself and a guest would have to take a hot air balloon flight along with other customers on a weekend.

    As someone who has a hard time with heights (dizziness and crying holla), I already e-mailed them back and told them I wouldn’t be able to do this. I’m fairly sure this will disqualify me from the hiring process.

    This is a pretty unique situation, so I’m wondering what other people think about being require to take a hot air balloon flight in order to be hired for an office job. Is this a little too much to ask?

    1. TCO*

      It’s unusual, but I think its appropriateness depends on the exact job duties. If you ever have to represent the company to prospective riders, answer questions about the experience, etc. I think it’s reasonable to expect you experience it yourself. “Knowing the business,” even parts not directly related to your job, is a huge advantage in many workplaces.

      That said, as a hiring manager I wouldn’t let that be a deal-breaker unless your daily job duties required really close interaction with the balloon experience itself.

      1. LOtheAdmin*

        Part of the job would be booking flights when customers call, so I would imagine questions about the experience would come into play at least a little bit. Before I interviewed, I heard the manager
        booking a customer and heard her going into detail about the flights and what it’s like.

        Part of the reason I’m asking this question is out of curiosity because I’ve never encountered something like this. I’m pretty sure I nailed this interview, but because of this dumb fear I have, I probably won’t get this. I really liked the office and the people in it and would love to work for them and I made both of the managers laugh in my interview and we all had this great banter and yeah. Frustrated doesn’t begin to describe how I feel.

        Quite frankly, I’d rather be frustrated on the ground than have a panic attack (or worse) in the air and freak out other customers.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          The reasons everyone else is giving make sense in this context. You probably will have to answer questions about it, and like Gene said, it’s a very unique experience (from what I understand). If you think you could possibly manage it, maybe they could take you up but not go very high.

          It would be a dealbreaker for me personally, because me on a balloon ride will never ever happen in this lifetime.

    2. Gene*

      My dad flew a hot air balloon commercially for a decade or so and I crewed for him a lot.

      Balloon flight is very different from other types of height. There is nothing connecting you to the ground, so you don’t have a frame of reference. The basket is stable, there’s no bouncing, only minor movements when people move around. And the silence most of the time is amazing, you can hear people talking on the ground below (or hear nothing but the heater when it’s on.)

      In answer to your question, it’s unusual, but you need to be able to convey to people who are the potential customers what balloon flight is like; and you can’t do that without experiencing it. It’s like nothing else you’ve done.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Ok, unlike Elizabeth West, I think I need to go on a balloon ride. That sounds pretty amazing.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I agree with everyone that it makes perfect sense in this situation. When customers call, they’ll have questions and they might be nervous, and you really need to know the experience firsthand. It’s like working in the box office of a theater– you ought to be familiar with the show, either through marketing materials or by watching a rehearsal. You don’t have to answer every question, but you should have a good idea of what your customers will be getting into.

    4. Gene*

      Another thought while sitting in the dentist chair:

      Email them back and ask if you can try out a tethered flight to see if that is possible for you. That’s where the balloon is tied to something secure (like a truck) and will stay within 50-100 feet of the surface. It doesn’t feel the same unless it’s totally calm, but if you can do that, you can do a free flight.

      The fact that you know what “tethered flight” means might just count in your favor.

  57. Jennifer*

    I’m the only one of my group here today. I am terrified they’ll make me be on the phones all day because I’ll be the only here to answer them if they’re short, and then there’s the perennial problem of being asked questions about things I have no idea about.

    One of my coworkers put a hold on someone’s record for some petty thing (and then she went on vacation for a week and a half) and I got asked about it yesterday. I was all, “I had no idea we could even do such a thing or why she would have done that.” I am still finding out all these things I’m “supposed” to know that I didn’t know existed. And this is why I just cannot answer questions at work (and then get in trouble for not answering them). Gah.

    1. LillianMcGee*

      If you’re new they shouldn’t reasonably expect you to be able to answer every question every time. If it were me, I’d say, “I don’t know the answer to that, but I will find it and follow up with you.” And then follow up. For heaven’s sake, follow up. In the meantime also be vigilant and spongelike… absorb everything you hear the others talking about and do your homework to find out what it means. I learned a lot by rooting around in my company’s shared drive reading meeting minutes and documents I knew I’d have to eventually produce myself.

      2. catsAreCool*

        In my experience, customers are OK with you not knowing something, as long as you can get the answers for them or connect them with someone who does have the answers. “Let me check on that and get back to you.” usually works pretty well.

    2. Xarcady*

      First, take a deep breath. You can do this.

      Second, when a call comes in and you don’t know the answer, take the caller’s name and phone number, the details of the problem and tell them someone will get back to them. Even if you are supposed to answer all the questions on the first phone call, you are alone in the department today, and it would be understandable for you to do this if a question needed some research or several calls came in at once.

      Third, is there anyone in today that you could ask this questions? If so, wait until you have 3-5 questions and then go and ask for help. (Bunch the questions up so you aren’t disturbing them every 10 minutes.) If there isn’t anyone, give the callers a likely day/time when they will get a return phone call.

      Fourth, keep track of how many questions you can answer, and how many you can’t. You may have more knowledge than you know.

      Fifth, while it is hard to ask for training when you don’t know what to be trained on, you can use these phone calls to your advantage. Keep a list of subjects you don’t know about, and when there is some downtime, and some more people in the office, ask for the information you need.

      Also, check around. Are there any manuals or policy sheets or other instructions anywhere? Physical copies in binders? Folders and files on the company intranet?

      You’ve now identified areas where you need training. If you can’t find resources to fill the gaps, this is something to take to your manager. Let her know that you’ve realized you really don’t know as much about X, Y and Z as you should, and ask for her advice on how to get better at those.

      1. C Average*

        This. All of this.

        Part of my job is to write scripts for our call center employees, and one of the most popular articles in our knowledge base is one I wrote called “how to respond when you don’t know the answer.” It gives a bunch of responses agents can use when they get a question they’ve never been asked before, need to escalate or research in order to get an answer, etc.

        When you have a quiet moment, maybe jot down some ways of saying, “I don’t know but I will do some research and find out” that feel natural to you and then just rely on your script and, as Xarcady advises, take good notes on each call so you can follow up when you do have the answers.

        And remember that each person who asks a question is an individual, not part of an angry mob. Try to bring a fresh supply of friendliness, energy, etc., to each interaction. It’ll go a long ways toward making it a pleasant interaction for the caller, even if ultimately they have to wait for an answer.

    3. Jennifer*

      And yup, I have to answer the phones all by my lonesome for the afternoon. On a big deadline panic day. Shoot me now. No, seriously, kill me now.

  58. Gene*

    Getting into the groove with my new workload since coworker died. Still not much down time, but it’s not as overwhelming as is was initially.

    And I’ve been approved for a conference in South Carolina middle of May! Even though it will be a busy week, it will be a break.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That’s good to hear! I’ve been in a similar boat– new job rather than an emergency like yours– and feeling more confident in the groove is SO nice.

      South Carolina in May will require light clothing and bug spray. Enjoy! I hope it’s somewhere particularly nice and/or interesting, like Charleston or Beaufort. Or at least somewhere with a beach.

      1. Gene*

        Sadly, it’s in Greenville, so no beach and I’ll leave my dive gear at home.

        Looking forward to some SC-style BBQ!

        1. Mockingjay*

          Greenville is nestled in beautiful, rolling hills. Enjoy!

          And yes, SC BBQ is the BEST! (Guess where I live?)

  59. jstarr*

    Does anyone else find themselves crashing into the “Class Ceiling” from time to time? I grew up in a working class family and there are things that some of my coworkers do and say that are so foreign to me that I feel like I’m humiliating myself. I had to be reassured that it was okay to fight for a higher salary for the work I do because negotiations = fired growing up. Anyone else have this issue?

    1. YandO*

      I was born and raise din another country. Moving to the US did a number o n my self-esteem, confidence, and general life expectations.

      It’s been over a decade and I am still struggling with it. You are not alone. It’s hard to work through the things we learn growing up.

    3. matcha123*

      I do. My family is pretty poor, but quite educated. I grew up in an upper-middle class city, went to good public schools and a very good public university. In my peer group are those that assume I had the same up bringing as them and will put down things that I have sympathy for: eating fast or processed food/candy; visiting certain stores; watching certain TV shows, etc.

      I tend to keep quiet, let others do the talking and wait for the conversation to move on.

    4. CollegeAdmin*

      I feel like Alison did an “ask the readers” post about this – if I find it, I’ll reply to this comment with a link.

    5. OriginalEmma*

      Same here. I felt REALLY out of place in college and I 100% believe it impacted my relationships with two boyfriends who were upper middle class. To the point that I felt so uncomfortable in their houses because they were so nice, whereas mine literally had 1/2-inch electrical wiring hanging out of the wall, among other shabbiness.

      I have two working class parents. As an example, we had maybe 3 family vacations growing up (e.g., going down the shore to stay in a beach house for a week). So besides the envy of growing up with middle class kids who did go on annual vacations, it’s odd for me as an adult to feel entitled to (and plan for) annual vacations like other adults.

      1. the gold digger*

        Do you think it’s weird that so many of your co-workers take spring break off? I assume mine are at Disneyland with their kids.

        When I was a kid, spring break meant nothing more than we did not go to school that week. In my world now, people take ski vacations with their entire families and go to Disneyworld and do things my parents would never have been able to afford. We went camping or to my grandparents’. I still think that spending thousands of dollars on a family vacation is just a crazy thing to do.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Yeah, I had no idea that people traveled for spring break! Vacations were travelling somewhere to visit family, sleeping in or next to the car, and eating sandwiches that we’d made ahead of time and packed back into the bread bag. They were not something that happened very often.

        2. Windchime*

          Spring break marked the beginning of the time of year when we were allowed to play outside barefooted. That’s about all it meant; going barefooted and not having to go to school.

          I can only remember taking one vacation with my family when I was growing up. And I was pretty much OK with that.

        3. catsAreCool*

          Travelling for spring break seems odd to me, too. I have tended to think of growing up in a lower middle income home (at least I think it was; we sure didn’t have much extra money) as an advantage in a way because it means that I appreciate what I can afford now, and I tend to be cautious about spending.

          My parents are both college-educated, though, and they helped with early education, especially math, grammar, and encouraging reading. That was a huge advantage.

    6. C Average*

      Yep. No advice, just solidarity. I grew up out in the sticks with parents who were middle-class for that community but would be much lower-middle class where I live now. Then I married up. I feel out of my depth a lot. I try to be kind and authentic and to work it into conversation early that I have country roots. People seem more forgiving of some of my quirks (corny sense of humor, unflappable optimism, inability to read or appreciate certain kinds of edgy humor, purple-voter politics) when they know where I come from.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I’d kill to have this problem. No, really. I grew up middle class in a farming town, with a mum who at least exposed us to some of the finer things, but I’ve spent my entire adult life being pretty much poor.

        I.
        HATE.
        IT.

        Everyone in my family lives in a nicer house than I do. Every time I take one step forward, I slide back two steps because playing catch-up all the time is expensive. My income potential is limited, and of course the only thing I’m even slightly good at *koffmediocrekoff* is writing, which pays NOTHING.

        I’m no Hyacinth Bucket–I really don’t care about all the trappings, so much as I’d love to have a house that works, and clothes that didn’t fall apart so quickly, etc. And I wish people would stop asking me when I’m going to write a bestseller. Sigh. You and I both know there are no guarantees there. :P

        I can relate to the original question as well, because when I got this job, I came into a world of tech where WebEx, remote access, and even the hardware were totally unfamiliar to me. I didn’t even know how to use the headset that came with my phone. I spent my first week thinking, “Oh my God, this building is too nice for me to be in,” and feeling like an imposter. In my other jobs, those things were reserved for management. Receptionists and admins had no reason to attend webinars, and even Exjob had a phone system that dated from the 1980s for the first three years I worked there. (When they finally updated it, everyone whined for ages, but I did the dance of joy.) Now I’m more used to it, but for the first few months, I really felt like any minute someone would come up to me and say, “I’m sorry, Miss West, but you don’t belong in this part of the ship.”

        1. C Average*

          I have been there. I have SO been there. It’s part of the reason I am so very acutely aware that almost everything about my existence is unfair in my favor.

          I remember being so poor I didn’t have my own computer, and somehow managing to get a freelance gig with a state agency through a personal connection. I completed the whole assignment on library computers, sometimes going to multiple branches in the same day because each location limited patrons to an hour.

          I remember selling plasma for race fees when I was seriously into running and just getting by as a Starbucks barista. (It was always a bit of a balancing act, because the weight cutoff was 110 pounds, and the more I ran, the more often I was ineligible to sell! I sometimes arrived with a full water-bottle in each pocket to make weight.)

          When I first got hired on at my current company, it was for a $28k/year hourly job, and I thought, “I can live like a KING on this,” because it was twice what I’d ever made before. I had just the experience you describe with the technology and the feeling of not belonging.

          I remember when I got promoted and became salaried for the first time in my life. My now-husband, an Ivy League-educated Ph.D engineer who’s had the most linear and drama-free career path imaginable, congratulated me and sheepishly confessed that he’d always been a little embarrassed to be dating someone who was an hourly worker, and that I could collect my grown-up card now. (He meant it kindly. Really, he did.)

          Sometimes I still look around my house and think about all that I have and feel like I’m in that Talking Heads song: “This is not my beautiful life. How did I get here?”

          I hope life becomes unfair in your favor, too. I really, really enjoy your contributions here, and relate to quite a few of them.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Thanks; I hope so too. (Extra points if I end up in London forever!)

            My coworker asked me the other day, “So when are you moving away to England?” I was all, “Ha, in my dreams probably,” but I really felt like crying.

          2. SevenSixOne*

            “When I first got hired on at my current company, it was for a $28k/year hourly job, and I thought, “I can live like a KING on this,” because it was twice what I’d ever made before.”

            THIS EXACTLY. I have serious cognitive disconnect when I hear people say that a good baseline for salary is “your age x $2,000” or act like a job that pays “only” $40K a year is beneath them somehow. I was thrilled to crack my age x $1,000 this year. A salary of $40K would mean my money problems are OVER.

          3. catsAreCool*

            “embarrassed to be dating someone who was an hourly worker” I’m glad he meant that kindly. I’d have felt insulted. I was an hourly worker when I was in college, and as far as I was concerned, it was honest work, and it could be tough work.

        2. ThursdaysGeek*

          I’m sorry. I’ll quit bugging you. It was more that from the hints you’ve dropped, that it sounds like what you’ve already written sounds like it would be fun to read. And maybe someday I’ll be able to monetarily contribute to your success. (That could be a whole ‘nother discussion, since I don’t think success is equal to money or things anyway.)

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Believe me, I would LOVE it if you could! I still do NOT want to self-pub anything. It still has such a bad reputation, and I can’t afford it, and it lacks the one thing you can get from traditional pubbing (that sounds like I’m drinking, not writing!), according to a recent convention panel host–legitimacy. I want that legitimacy.

            I’m beginning to understand writers who drink, however. >:P

    7. Jaune Desprez*

      I was in a situation something like this once. I went to work for a big-name private foundation and found myself completely at sea in the culture. All the senior people had gone to the same Swiss boarding schools, were on a first-name basis with one or more ambassadors, and spoke perfect French. Everyone else at my level was 15 years younger than me and planning on putting in about two years at Fancy Foundation before swanning off to work for the U.N. Come to think of it, they all spoke perfect French too.

      They ostracized me in the kindest and politest possible way. In spite of an amazing salary and solid gold benefits, I left in less than a year.

    8. CheeryO*

      Definitely read the post that CollegeAdmin posted. There are some great comments there. And I totally feel for you. I was the first in my family to go to college. My parents are very smart, but they are total blue collar, salt-of-the-earth types who both grew up very poor. I definitely feel out of place at work sometimes. I felt that way in college too, to a lesser extent. I hope it gets better as the years go by.

    9. The Cosmic Avenger*

      My parents were the first in their respective families to have a white collar kind of job, so I kind of sympathize, but I also think it has its positive side, too.

      For instance, I find that I’m giving a lot of financial advice to coworkers, about how to save, and that I save a lot more than they do. Many of them never learned to be frugal, or that debt is a dangerous, addictive tool to be used with caution.

      I also have a different perspective on the needs of our clients and users. Even though I do web work, I’ve suggested audio podcasts for users who commute, and I’ve advised our outreach people that our big challenge isn’t reaching more online users, but reaching those who don’t have online access, because those who have internet access can find us pretty easily. (We turn up in the top five or ten for most searches involving what we do.)

    11. Anx*

      I do.

      I have a strange relationship with class. I grew up in an upper middle class town that became a rich person’s town as a grew up. My family owned a business so our finances fluctuated a lot. Although but of my parents have had professional jobs, that was decades ago and neither was able to return to professional work since our business folded in the aughts.

      I currently am broke or poor. I am not poor, poor because I could theoretically move in my parent if I needed to and have the trappings of middle class life (my furniture is hand-me-downs). But my broke phase is lasting years and years so it’s not quite broke any more. I haven’t had a dental cleaning in almost a decade, my diet has changed drastically, and I definitely have completely changed my outlook on life and money. I have a very hard buying anything for ‘want’ reasons.

      My class experience if very different from yours, but it definitely affects the way I think about work. This website has introduced me to so many concepts, like getting put on a work improvement plan (as opposed to be fired without any discussion). Paid vacation?! Apparently that is a common benefit. People not losing their jobs because they got pregnant or sick. Sick days vs personal days.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      This has been a great read. Thank you for putting yourselves out there for the rest of us to learn and contemplate.
      My father was a depression kid. He had been working since age 7. He was absolutely bent on the idea that I would not work and go to school. I feel this was a huge setback for me in many ways. My father had no idea what it took to keep up with school needs nor did he understand the concept of peer pressure. (Depression kids did not have peer pressure according to him because no one had anything- so it did not matter.)
      My parents never talked about their jobs, so I did not learn much there. Matter of fact, reading here is the most I have ever learned about the work environment. Both of my parents had desk jobs. Some how the little they said about their jobs lead me to think that a desk job was a life of sheer misery. I struck out on a different path that did not serve me well. I carried a lot of misconceptions or assumptions that did not pan out well, either.
      You know… if you stick to something long enough eventually you burn through a lot of that stuff. Not with out tears, but also there are moments of joy/triumph.
      Most definitely, there are times when I know I am out of place with a group of people. For example, I don’t drink because it makes me feel crappy really fast. So I could not order a decent bottle of wine if my life depended on it. That’s not the worse part. The worst part is that I don’t care! There are some things that I have grown not to care about and learning about wine is one of them.
      But yes, there are definitely times when I know, “these peeps are not my peeps”. I have a dear family member that grew up like me. He calls it an impoverished mind set. I guess it is taught and you deliberately have to over come it. He makes a comfy living and he orders those wines. He thinks he’s rich. Well, he is. I feel I am rich in other ways and, well, …I am. Interestingly he thinks I am rich in different ways also.

      OP, the things your coworkers talk about are an aspect of life, not the sum total of life. Because they have exposure to aspects of life that you have not had, does not mean you are at a disadvantage. It just means they are talking about things you have not seen. And you know what? You could tell them plenty about things they have not seen. At some point the tables will turn, because tables always turn. And that will be your chance at feeling like you are on firm ground and they are telling you (perhaps indirectly) that they are not sure how to navigate a particular situation/problem. Just bide your time and know that your opportunity will come up. Because that is how these things go.
      For the moment, soak up their stories. Put it under the heading of “learning about what goes on in the world.” Then put their stories in the storage room of you memories. Their stories will be handy in years to come. I can’t explain that, except to say that very few our experiences in life are totally wasted. And…. deep dark secret… the only one who is seeing you as humiliated is YOU. Very few, if any, people see us as humiliated, when we feel humiliated. Smile softly, nod, say very little and you will probably come off as “the person in the group with wisdom”.

  60. Jules*

    How does one asks a coworker nicely to back off? We have assigned work and randomly one day, this person does the analysis for my work and I am at loss as to how to address that.

    I appreciate her help but not for her to take over. She did it before and we talked about it. Now it happened again. I don’t get into her business I don’t understand why she thinks it’s ok to randomly do mine.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I would try to head it off at the pass then – maybe say to her – “Hey overeager beaver, the next time you are about to pick up a task assigned to me, please let me know before you get started.”

          If she informed you ahead of time, you could easily say to her that you were about to start that task and her help wasn’t needed.

    2. Sadsack*

      Did you ask her why she picked up your work? Seems like the place to start — nice and inquisitive though, not adversarial.

      1. Jules*

        Yeah, I will try that after checking in with my boss to confirm no one asked her to pick up my work. The last time she took the whole thing and dropped me off the discussion completely. I talked to her and made sure the team knew that it was not acceptable. She is an older lady so I didn’t want to offend her but we are peers. I have more experience doing this then she does. Sometimes it feels like she needs to prove herself but again… why? We are literally peers.

        1. fposte*

          And if your boss didn’t ask her to do it, you can wave her off if she tries it again. “Thanks, but Boss and I are good with it as is.” And you can always get up and go to the bathroom or something if she doesn’t walk away.

  61. Brett*

    My week was going great, until a fan failed on my workstation. Super noisy, and cannot be fixed until Monday.

    On the bright side, one of my side assignments is social media management, and this week we had the weather channel, abc, nbc, and cbs all contact our office for permission to use our content :) (As well as three of the four local news stations). That picked us up a couple hundred more twitter followers to push us over 5k and pushed us over 100k vine loops. So, at least that is going well.

  62. some1*

    I’m an admin at a small office of a F100 company. They hired a counterpart of my position for an office in another state last month. She came to my office last month for a week of training, and I’m one of two admins in my region who are instructed to train her on tasks as they come up by phone and screen-sharing. I’m responsible for her training but I’m not her supervisor.

    From the beginning, she has been very unreceptive to being trained as a whole. When I show her something new that has steps A, B, C, D and E, when we complete Step C she will tell me she will finish the task later (?). She interrupts me to tell how to do something like where to save a doc before I have the chance to explain that we save it in a certain folder for a reason. When I explain company style for how we word something in correspondence, she scoffed and said, “Who does that anymore?” (Um, I just told you we do.)

    Our boss hasn’t asked me how training her is going. I know she can learn the job and succeed at it, but it really gets on my nerves to have pushback from her literally every time I try to teach her something.

    Thoughts? Suggestions?

    1. Sadsack*

      Maybe you could say, “I know that some of our processes may be different than what you have done in other jobs/at other companies, but we have these processes for a reason and really need everyone to follow them.”

        1. Sadsack*

          I guess all you can do is finish training her and see how she does at the job itself. Maybe you should bring this up to your manager and ask for some direction.

    2. Nanc*

      Ouch. Touch one. I would be matter of fact and just state that you have been assigned to train her in the standard procedure and suggest that once she’s trained, she could speak with her supervisor about doing things a different way. I think you’re in for a period of being firm and shutting down her interruptions by reminding her of your assignment. Who assigned you to train her? Can you give them an update along the lines of Philomena has learned A, B and C but is still working on D and E? Or can you ask for coaching on how to train her when she keeps throwing up the roadblocks?

      Here’s hoping it gets better!

      1. some1*

        Our boss assigned me and she knows that. It’s getting her to realize that our procedures are specific for a reason, and not only am I not interested in whether that makes sense to *her *, I almost feel like she’s being rude because I’m trying to help her and she keeps pushing back.

        1. Natalie*

          She’s being a little rude, but she can’t push back if you don’t engage with her. Comments like “who does it that way anymore?” don’t actually require a response at all.

          Her attitude towards your policies and processes is someone else’s problem. You’re not responsible for getting her buy-in or even making sure she conforms to the system. All you have to do is show her and provide her with whatever documentation you have.

    3. Jaune Desprez*

      “I’ve been assigned to train you on our standard procedures, but I can’t document that you’ve been trained if we don’t complete all the steps. If you have reservations about the way we do things, shall we schedule a meeting with Boss to discuss your concerns?”

      1. some1*

        Sorry, that part was unclear. When I have told her, actually, no we’re not done yet, she is willing to complete the task with me, my point is that she keeps trying to hijack the training. Instead of asking, “Is this the last step?” she decides for herself that it must be and she tells me we are done.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “I know she can learn the job and succeed at it, but it really gets on my nerves to have pushback from her literally every time I try to teach her something.”

      Uh, no, she can’t learn the job. This is the disconnect here. She is showing you that she cannot do the job. In her case the reason she cannot do the job is because she is unwilling to learn the standards of the job and/or unwilling to keep with the standards for the job.

      While you may think she has the ability to do the job, she is routinely refusing to use that ability. That means she can’t do the job. Time to talk to the boss before you sink more of your labor ($$$) into this training project.

  63. Anonynon*

    In general, is the job market still good for employers? I didn’t think it had swung into being favorable for job hunters yet, but my work posted some positions and we haven’t gotten as many applicants as I expected. What’s the word AAM community?

    1. TheExchequer*

      I would say I have seen some improvement in job postings, both in terms of quantity an dquality (payment)

    2. cuppa*

      I am just seeing this start to happen in my neck of the woods. We used to regularly have over 100 applicants for each position we posted, and now, that is happening in maybe 20% of jobs. Seeing less candidates and a higher percentage appropriately qualified for positions. I’m thinking the change for us was really just in the last six months or so.

  64. Jill of All Trades*

    For anyone who made the jump: how did you move from an individual contributor role to management? Did you get there through internal promotion or by changing jobs to a different company? Was there something you leveraged, like a degree or a class, or mentoring?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I know my degree eased the way. But I needed to add in other things: willingness to learn, willingness to take on the unfamiliar, working at troubleshooting problems, finding ways to show that I had a bigger picture understanding,and ability to deal with “personalities”. The thing that clinched it was finding an advocate. I found someone that was willing to speak up and say, “hey, I think I have someone you should consider.” I had five promotions inside of eight months.

      My best advice is gather up as many different advantages as you can find. Do not rely on just one thing.

  65. Jubilance*

    Great news to share – I got an award at the big department meeting yesterday! It was a great and welcome surprise :-)

    My company held a big round of layoffs almost a month ago, and I’d been struggling with a bit of survivors guilt and also worrying that people thought I didn’t deserve to stay. I’m one of the few in my dept who doesn’t have teapot sales experience, which is a good thing because I challenge and think differently. I was recognized for joining the team, quickly getting up to speed, and creating a process test that we’ve implemented in the field. If the results are promising, this test process will be rolled out to the entire company in October. When I was given the award, my VP also noted that I did a ton of project management and data analysis while also planning my wedding :-) After the stress of the layoffs, it’s nice to feel appreciated. And it’s also nice that my name was spelled correctly – when I won an award in another department, they spelled my name wrong :-/

  66. Bend & Snap*

    I’ve had a tough year at work being in the middle of a divorce and having a health-challenged child, which means I’ve had a VERY flexible schedule and been working at home a ton.

    My performance review was solidly average.

    I’m FINALLY feeling like things are looking up–my baby is doing really well AND I just closed on a beautiful new condo 15 minutes from my office (instead of an hour and a half).

    I’m really hoping these developments will have a positive impact on my working life and make it easier to be more visible and do a good job as I wade into single motherhood.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You are very strategic and deliberate in how you handle things- this will NEVER fail you. And it will get you where you want to be! Well done!

  67. Aussie Teacher*

    I last posted in the Open Thread on Mar 20th about the job I applied for in early March – my first job application in 5 years (since being a SAHM). Well despite being confident that I would get an interview based on my previous experience, the weeks ticked by and after I politely nudged them on the final day of term, I eventually got a rejection email this week (first week of the school holidays – the position was commencing at the start of the next term):

    Further to your application for the position of XXX Teacher, I am writing to advise that your application was unsuccessful.  We appreciated your interest in working at SCHOOL, and should another position arise within this field we would encourage a further application from you.

    I had already decided to ask for feedback, so this is what I wrote back:

    Thank you for your email – I appreciate you taking the time to let me know the result of my application. While I’m sorry to see this opportunity go, I will definitely keep an eye out for future positions, as I’ve heard from other SCHOOL staff about what a great place it is to work! Please don’t feel obligated to answer this question, but if there was anything you noticed in my application materials that I could work on to make myself a stronger candidate in the future, I’d be so grateful to hear any feedback.

    And I got a reply with some feedback!

    Thank you for your email. In regards to the format of your application your cover letter and resume are clear and concise. On this occasion I understand the selection panel were looking for a particular SUBJECT skill set that would complement the current SUBJECT team. 
    Should another position arise at SCHOOL we would encourage you to apply again.

    I’m so encouraged, especially since it was my first job application in nearly 5 years. I took Alison’s advice to thank anyone who actually does give you feedback, and replied with this:

    Thank you very much for taking the time to give me feedback – I really appreciate it! It’s reassuring to hear that the selection panel were looking for a different skill set rather than something lacking in my application materials. I wish you and the SUBJECT Department all the best with your new hire. Thanks again for getting back to me so promptly.

    So…. bummed that I didn’t get the job or even a chance to interview, but really happy that my revamped cover letter and resume are being approved of, and that I followed Alison’s advice to ask for feedback in a way that got results!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      “your application was unsuccessful” That is the strangest rejection I have heard!
      I’m glad the feedback helped. It’s good to know the employer was just looking for something different and it wasn’t anything personal.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would be quietly optimistic here. Of course, keep looking at other opportunities but it sounds like you are on the right path.

  68. My Heart is Breaking Over Maybe Having to Leave My Job*

    Hi All… bear with me this is long, but I’m quite conflicted about what’s going on so that’s why I have to lay it all out.

    I’ve been an external contractor at my company for a little over 2 years now. I do not have the right personality to be external – had I known it would have permanently been external (was offered with the assurances that it would ‘probably’ become internal within 6 months) I don’t think I would have accepted it. My company is weird in that 60% of the people who ‘work’ for my company are external – but they violate just about every co-employment law in the book and I don’t FEEL like a contractor in a day-to-day sense because my immediate manager doesn’t treat me as such, and most of my team is also external. But sometimes, I really do feel like a second class citizen, and it really does suck. I liken it to being ‘friends with benefits’ with a company; they want you to commit everything to them, but not commit back to you. At what point do you know, that ‘He’s Just Not That Into You?’

    I love my job. I really do. I love my manager, my team, my work, everything about it. But, my company is also going through a reorganization process, and they’ve lost the funding for my position as of the end of Q2. My boss says he and his boss are working hard, and they’re fairly certain they’ve found a way to extend me through the rest of the year, and is still working on trying to get me internal – but it’s not ultimately their call call really, they have to convince the people above them. We have a lot of things coming up with teapot regulation in our office in the next few years, and he can’t really FUNCTION without me, so he needs me; If I were to walk out the door today, he would be essentially paralyzed. At what point is it me running on a treadmill to a carrot though? I mean, I really feel like every time it gets within grasping distance, they have to pull it away.

    So, I’ve started interviewing elsewhere. They really can’t blame me, right? I am one of two finalists for an INTERNAL position elsewhere, and am fairly certain I’m the front runner based on the conversations had with who my direct manager would be. I should be getting an answer early next week, and frankly the job is PERFECT and I know I’d love doing it, and it lines up well with where I want my career to go (I have abt 7 years experience, so still fairly early in my career). Regardless of whether it’s this job, I know I will continue interviewing and I have very marketable skills so I’m not worried about finding something great – there are quite a few irons in the fire, this is just the best fit, and furthest progressed role at this point (I’ve already turned another offer down last month for a poor fit).

    But, whenever I think about actually leaving, it really breaks my heart. I love my manager, we have a great working relationship – and I’ve become very passionate about what I do! My husband believes that there is a chance that me getting an offer and being willing to leave (the other role would be equally fantastic) may be just the catalyst that my manager and his manager need to finally twist some screws on the powers that be above them to get me an internal role – basically calling the company’s bluff. I know if I get the offer I will leave, but it’s just a heartbreaking thought to have to do.

    Does anyone have any advice on this? Not sure if there really is advice to offer without going into proprietary details but… I am just at a loss right now and honestly very very sad.

    1. C Average*

      Take the other job if it’s offered.

      My company also makes extensive use of perma-temp contractors, and your friends-with-benefits metaphor is spot-on. It’s a sucky way to treat people, and I wish we didn’t do it. (I understand WHY we do it, but that doesn’t make it OK.)

      If they liked it, they should’ve put a ring on it.

      1. edj3*

        *snort* Yes, they should have put a ring on it. And thanks, now I have that song in my head.

      2. Dawn*

        “If they liked it, they should’ve put a ring on it.”
        Ayyyyyyuuuuupppppp!!!!!!

        Also, “Actions speak louder than words” plus “When someone tells you what they think of you, it’s in your best interest to listen.” Your current company has paid you lip service for two years and is violating federal labor laws while doing so. Go for the new job!!!!

        1. My Heart is Breaking Over Maybe Having to Leave My Job*

          Thanks. I think I’ll take it, but the point my husband is making is that it might need to be at the point where I’m ready to walk away – and actually ready – before they can do anything about it. The company is a well-known brand and they can get away with the perma-temp because so many people are brand-loyalists. Like, working here is their DREAM job.

          Well it’s not mine, I’m not branded, I just like what I do. So, I know if I get the other offer I’ll give my notice, but just my husband’s point is that it might take giving my notice for anything to happen. But at that point it may be too late – I don’t know that I’d accept a counter offer.

          But technically I DO have to get the other offer first :)

          1. Windchime*

            I think you’re smart to not consider the counter-offer (should they make one). I wish you the best of luck for the new job; I hope it works out for you. I worked at my last workplace for 22 years (in various roles) and it was so hard to leave, but it was obvious that things would never, ever change. Four years later, they are still doing surveys and re-doing the org chart and forming committees, and it still sucks.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      I agree with C Average — take the other job if it’s offered. Your current employer has had plenty of time to make your position permanent, and they haven’t. Even if they make noise about making you permanent after giving notice, I would still take the other job.

      A good friend of mine worked at my company for about 6 years, and accomplished quite a bit. She was more than qualified for a management role, based on what she’d done in her current role, and her previous experience. She approached her (awful) boss about what her next move would be, career-wise, and was basically told that there was nowhere for her to go and that she was pretty much at a dead end. So she started looking elsewhere, and it only took her about 5 weeks to secure a job offer from another company.

      When she gave notice, they were up in arms about how terrible it would be to lose her, and gave her a counter offer which included a huge raise and a promotion. She turned it down, because she’d already made a commitment to another company. In her exit interview with the CFO, he said he was surprised that she’d turned down the counter offer. She said she’d turned it down first because she’d already committed to the new company, and also, because she was disgusted that it took giving notice for her (awful) boss to realize what she was worth and then scramble to keep her — after telling her that there was no way she’d ever advance any further.

      Her boss was perfectly content to keep her where she was, with no interest in helping her grow or advance her career, until all of a sudden she would look bad for losing a good employee. Screw that.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is it right here, OP.

        I am not surprised you have a wonderful boss. She knows that is the only mechanism she has for retaining people- to be that awesome boss. She probably is an awesome person. But she also knows that not too much is going on for you. And this is her plan to retain you, because there is no other plan.

  69. Aussie Teacher*

    Now that the only part-time job in my field in my area in the last 9 months has come and gone, I’m considering sending my resume to the Head of [my subject] Department at schools near where I live, and letting them know I’m interested in part-time work, in case they have an opening. I’m not sure if it’s worth a shot or if it will come off as a bit tone deaf (I’m in the private system so the big schools will ALWAYS advertise positions, even if they have a preferred candidate in mind, so presumably I’d see their listings anyway).

    I assume my cover letter would need to be pretty kick-ass, but I’m struggling a bit with tailoring my cover letter when there isn’t a specific job listing – for when you are just applying to a company you’d like to work at. I’ve tried searching the archives but no luck so far. Do I just pretend there is a job listing for a [my subject] teacher and tell them why I’d excel at it and why I’d love to work for their school?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’d definently send a letter and cv to introduce yourself, as for the content of the letter I’d focus more on why the school appeals to you and why you’d like to work there as well as what skills you have that would make you an asset to the school.

    2. Ismis*

      A bit late, but would you consider doing relief work? Maybe mention that as well… Of course it depends on if you have kids/can work with little to no notice etc…

  70. TheExchequer*

    I had my first interview yesterday!

    They were looking for someone with construction experience. Nothing in my resume even hints at construction experience. So confused.

    For the “Why are you looking to leave?” question I said, “Well, it’s partially to be closer to home and partially because my company has had consistent issues with paying my commission time.” The interviewer winced. “Oooh, that’s not good.” So, it’s kind of nice to know that someone else agrees that this is not acceptable behavior.

    I’ve made a list of the 5 things I want in my next job:
    – A better commute (though, for the right price or job, I would consider bending this)
    – A boss who is reasonable, fair, and who respects me (this is not negotiable)
    – Coworkers who I am at least civil with if not friendly (I have no interest in a dog eat dog environment; it’s just not for me)
    – A fair amount of pay paid on time (and I’ve done my research and even for the role I was originally hired in, I’m being underpaid)
    – A role with places to grown in and a path to grow “up” in (things to learn, a path to become manager, etc)

    If you’re also looking for a job, what are things you’re looking for?

    1. S*

      Benefits. Vacation/sick time, sure, as long as it’s in line with the industry norms, but I’m a big stickler on medical benefits. My parents have been under-insured for years (but they never skimped on my insurance costs when I was a kid) and seeing the uncertainty of not having “good enough” coverage for things like routine check-ups (especially when you have chronic health conditions) has left me a little battle-scarred.

    2. Steve G*

      I think you should keep the reasons-for-leaving after on a more positive note and only mention things that make you look better in the employer’s mind:

      ex. “I know xyz computer program and want to expand my knowledge of it, but current job only has me doing basic things in it.”
      or
      “I now coordinate projects but want more official direct responsibility for projects and financial responsibility and my current company won’t offer that because there is already a Project Manager in place”

  71. LisaLee*

    Warning: this will be long, due mostly to my level of annoyance with this ridiculousness.

    So I’m having a totally bizarre situation at work and I hope somebody has an idea for me. Basically, I have a Terrible Coworker and a Terrible Boss (both have issues with time management, getting stuff done, being courteous, and Terrible Boss also can’t manage anybody, as we shall see) and they’re having a war with each other and have put me in the middle of it.

    I sit by Terrible Coworker, as we work on the same projects. When he doesn’t get his work done or done well, which is often, I have to do it. I do probably 1/4-1/3 of his tasks, because my work is impacted if he slacks off. Terrible Boss has noticed Coworker constantly texting/slacking/etc but refuses to actually do anything about it. He’ll say something like “Gee, we really need to finish those forms” instead of “Those forms needed to be done two days ago, why haven’t you completed them?” which does not get the message across to Coworker. Boss then comes and complains to me (loudly, with lots of personal judgements about Coworker that frankly make me uncomfortable). I think that Boss has noticed I do a lot of Coworker’s job, and thinks that by complaining to me about Coworker he’s being supportive, but really I just want him to DO SOMETHING about it! Sometimes he lets me go a few minutes early and makes Coworker stay, but doesn’t tell him why. I don’t really like this passive-aggressive tactic, honestly, and I don’t like being part of Coworker’s “punishment.” These punishments-without-explanation seem to be increasing in number.

    Terrible Boss himself is about a million years old and does not understand any of the parts of our job dealing with computers, which is a lot of our job, and he says he does not care to learn. He has a habit of wandering around the office trying to “help out” and really just annoying everybody and screwing things up that we then have to fix (we have two other bosses on the same level, which I think is why Terrible Boss remains un-fired, but due to what I and Coworker do, we work mostly with him). Terrible Coworker is especially annoyed because Boss keeps following him around, and he doesn’t get that this is due to his constant inability to complete tasks. So he complains to me VERY LOUDLY, often while Boss is in earshot. Yesterday, Boss was literally 10 feet away and Coworker leaned over to my desk and shouted, “He’s so f*cking ANNOYING! Why can’t he just go away! UGH!” I have no idea if Boss heard or not, as nothing was said, but it was definitely an uncomfortable moment. Coworker seems to be making a habit of saying increasingly unprofessional things about Boss to me while Boss is within earshot, or just walking away while Boss is talking to him and leaving me to listen to Boss’s instructions for him. Again, super passive-aggressive and I don’t appreciate being involved.

    Is there something I can do to help resolve this situation? So far, I’ve been responding to their complaints about each other with noncommittal “Yes, I see how that is annoying” but I’m at a loss about what to say to Coworker about his loud, unprofessional complaints (seriously, does he think Boss can’t hear? WTF?) or to Boss about his complaining to me without actually saying anything to Coworker, or to either of them about the fact that they’re both awful and terrible at their jobs. Complicating this is my organization’s culture, which is very hierarchical, and I don’t think Boss would take it well if I came straight out and said something like, “I agree with your complaints about Coworker, but I wish you would tell him directly so that I don’t have to do his job anymore.”

    1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      Could you get away with “Why are you telling me this?”

      Not in a confrontational, “I don’t care” tone, but in a genuinely-perplexed, “I do not understand why this information is being conveyed to me” tone. Maybe by asking Co-Worker and/or Boss to articulate why they have taken to talking to *you* about their problems with “*each other*, it might help them realize that they need to talk directly to each other about all of this.

      Alternatively, if you’re not comfortable with that approach (and I concede, it’s very direct), maybe switch from your current “Yes, I see” (which is probably just making the person feel affirmed, which will make them want to talk to you more) to a “Gee, that sounds like something you should discuss directly with Other Person.”

      1. LisaLee*

        Hm, I might try “Maybe you should address that with Coworker” with Boss. I don’t think it will work with Coworker because he can’t really criticize what Boss is doing (aforementioned hierarchical structure + he has no credibility anymore) and because, well, all of his complaints are totally valid and things other people in the office complain about too. My issue with him is less being complained to and more the “Let me shout this complaint so I know Boss will hear me call him an idiot!” tactic. I’m still not sure how to deal with that, since it’s something mostly used by five-year-olds and Coworker is a grown-ass man. I’ve tried “You know he can hear you, right?” but I fear that makes me sound complicit in the shouty-ness and it doesn’t seem to have worked so far.

        1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

          I know I already recommended this up-thread, but maybe just “Really?” with a raised eyebrow in response to shouty co-worker?

          Alternatively, if you have an otherwise-okay relationship with the guy, you could maybe have a quick, direct conversation with him along the lines of “Hey, I get that you have complaints about Boss, and I’m not saying your complaints are unfounded, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable when you shout those complaints to me in hearing distance of Boss, so I’d really appreciate it if you would stop doing that going forward, and please note that I won’t be responding to any shouted complaints anymore.”

          Also, I don’t know if this is comforting at all, but to my eye, if you’re just sitting there quietly while this idiot is shouting complaints at you, I certainly wouldn’t consider you to be complicit in his wackiness.

          1. LisaLee*

            That is comforting, actually! Part of my worry here is that Boss has a habit of transferring his anger at one person onto everyone in contact with that person, and although he seems to like me I’m always a bit concerned that someday he will start thinking that I agree with Coworker’s behavior.

            I really like your “Really?” suggestion. I don’t have the best relationship with him (I have to nag him to do work I need him to do, he definitely resents this, but unfortunately it seems to be the only tactic that works) but if “Really?” doesn’t work I’ll definitely try having a conversation with him.

            1. The Cosmic Avenger*

              I like PurpleMonkeyDishwasher’s suggestions, that’s very much what I usually suggest for things like this. (I also love the nickname! We often use it as code for misinterpretations, and it’s particularly appropriate here where two people are trying to communicate AT one another by putting a third person in between!)

              I call this method “playing therapist”, and it comes in really handy. You ask them why they feel that way or what they intend to do about it, and you hope you can lead them to the answer. Although with Terrible Coworker, I’d be very tempted to say “First, take it up with [Boss], don’t shout it at me. Second, I’m too busy doing your work to talk, so please don’t come to me unless it’s about the WENUS reports.”

                2. Apollo Warbucks*

                  Don’t for get the AENUS report too. I’m sure chandlers boss had seen such a bad ARNUS in a long time

                3. The Cosmic Avenger*

                  Yes, Chandler cared a little too much about the WENUS, if I remember it correctly.

    2. Steve G*

      No fun. Well, it definitely doesn’t help that the boss is a million and doesn’t know anything about computers. You are brining back unpleasant memories of past past past job where the new boss of our Dept that was 80% focused on analytics in Excel didn’t know one thing about Excel!!!!! So we’d get delegated the weirded combos of tasks (one person would get 2 huge template-building projects in one hour), someone else would be sent 2 quick data-pull requests and given a week to do it, etc.) The worst part was that the culture at that company was to NEVER question anything and not talk much. When HR asked how the new manager was, you said “great” or you were soon out. It was a weird place. You could get fired for questioning stuff, but you could be a bad fit for the job like this manager, and keep your job.

      1. LisaLee*

        Yeah…honestly he COULD learn, he just outright refuses to. Last week I needed him to log in to our system and basically just check a box on a form and he said, “I don’t know how to do that! I’m old, you know!” Literally all he had to do was login and click a button, and I had to fight to get him to do it.

        1. Steve G*

          Argh. I hate when people try to pull the I’m too old card when it doesn’t apply. My deceased grandaunt born in 1920 (God rest her soul) was one of the first people to get the internet, well before me! Yes, computers are not germaine to old old people, but they aren’t to a lot of people. Even my 88yo grandma used computers at work. I doubt this guy is older than her. Stop using age as an excuse and learn something!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Have you been job hunting?
      Can you transfer to another department?
      Can you move away from lazy coworker?

      Tell your coworker no shouting at you, not ever. Never. No exceptions.

      Tell your coworker that you do not have time to discuss the boss anymore. You are way too busy. Mean it. Stick to it.
      Tell the boss that you do not have time to discuss the coworker anymore, you are way too busy. Mean it. Stick to it.
      You are being forced into an enabler role here. As long as you are there they do not have to deal with each other. If they argue around you, tell them to take it to a private office somewhere.
      They are both doing the same thing. They are feeding their own anger and refusing to solve th situation. I am thinking you are the only adult in the room.

      Totally agree about age as a crutch. The man who repairs my computer is 82.If I call him he at my front door at 8 am. He lives an hour away from me. Yes, 82 years old, 8 am, 1 hour drive. Your boss’ age is actually his lame excuse. In all likelihood your boss is probably around my age. It’s his thinking/ his mind that is antiquated.

  72. AnonymousFriday*

    Yesterday, in a standard one-on-one meeting with my manager, she said that she is getting feedback that I am difficult to work with. She’s been very supportive of me and a real champion and her comment was given as something that may hold me back in reaching my potential. When I asked for an example, she said I have a tendency to take over meetings when they start to meander. I know she is absolutely right. I am not a very patient person in general and I have a very hard time when I feel like time is being wasted so I am already actively working on this. She didn’t give any other examples and I didn’t press but now I’m really struggling with what the issue(s) are. I like all my co-workers and I feel like I regularly volunteer to help. I don’t gossip, which is an issue in the office (although I have raised issues a couple of times when it was having a direct impact on my work). The one thing I think it could be is that I do ask our administrative staff for help. I’m not actually very comfortable doing this but when I don’t I get feedback from my boss that I need to delegate more. I also am not one to stand and chat for long periods of time about non-work things, which is also out of character with much of the office. The other thing that I worry about is that sometimes I feel a little like a “teacher’s pet”. Our director can be pretty hard on staff and I sometimes feel like she praises me when she’s pushing them to improve. Anyway, any advice on how I might seem less difficult to work with when I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong (or thoughts on what I might be doing wrong) are appreciated.

    1. some1*

      I would go back and ask for specifics. “Jane, I appreciate the feedback. You mentioned not taking control of meetings which I think will help. Is there anythig else you’d like to see me doing that makes me easier to work with?”

      1. C Average*

        This. Vague feedback sucks. It just makes you paranoid about everything you’re doing (“is this the thing people are complaining about?”) and everyone you’re working with (“is this the person who complained to my boss about me?”). You can’t improve what hasn’t been identified clearly.

      2. Ann Furthermore*

        Vague feedback absolutely is the worst. I would press your boss for more details, because like you said, it could be that it’s not that you’re actually difficult to work with, it could be your work style (not being chatty/gossipy, etc). Tell your boss you’ve been thinking about what she said, and you really do want to address it, but you need some specifics.

        As for taking over meetings, you have my sympathies there. I hate meetings in general, and meetings that get off track and waste time are even worse. When the discussion veers offtrack, you might try saying, “Is this something that can be discussed offline?” or something similar, to gently prompt whoever is running the meeting to try and steer things back to the original discussion.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      OK, just to note: I wish more people would take charge of wandering meetings! To me, that’s a good thing!

      1. AnonymousFriday*

        Me, too. My problem is a don’t readily distinguish between doing it in a meeting I called and one conducted by my boss’s boss’s boss. :(

    3. Christy*

      I’ve gotten feedback that I’m too curt. My boss told me to make people feel like they’re being heard before offering a quick response. Maybe that would help?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like more of you have bad PR. It might be a good investment of your time to stop and chat with people. Not for long and not all the time. But let people get to know you a little more.

      As far as taking control over meetings maybe instead of actually doing that, you could request that agendas be set so meetings can be more efficient. In other words, shift your focus from saying something IN the meeting to saying something outside of the meeting.

      I don’t think I would worry about the teacher’s pet thing. Let the boss handle that.

      If you have a coworker that you trust, maybe you could ask her for some tips about what other people might be concerned about. I would only do this if I really trusted the coworker.

  73. Lalaith*

    I have a couple of resume questions. Firstly, my company (let’s call it The Teapot Shop) was acquired several months ago by another already-established company (Teapots Unlimited). I found a post where Alison recommended writing a company merger on a resume as “Teapots Unlimited (formerly The Teapot Shop)” but it seems a little odd to me, because while my job was formerly at The Teapot Shop, Teapots Unlimited was never called The Teapot Shop, it already existed and just bought us out. Is that still the right way to write it?

    Secondly, my job title at the Teapot Shop was one that made it clear that I produced teapots. While my role has grown over the time I’ve been with them to include a lot of direct client communication and some small amount of planning, I still primarily produce teapots, and that is what I’d like to continue doing in future positions. However, in the system at Teapots Unlimited, my job title is something along the lines of Manager, Teapot Production. No one ever discussed this title change with me or even notified me that it had happened – and I have no desire to be a manager of any sort. Should I keep my old title on my resume or use the new one? Or both? Is there any reason someone would check my title with this company and be put off that I didn’t include the manager title?

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      For the first question, yes, follow Alison’s example.

      For the second, use your current Manager title – because it IS your title, and it could look odd if the hiring company went to verify it and it didn’t match, even if you were downplaying it – and make sure your bullets line up with what you actually do/prefer to do.

  74. regular poster, anon for this*

    Health informatics – thoughts on job outlook/career paths?

    I’m currently a mid-level provider in a large hospital system hoping to move away from direct patient care. The next step for most would be to become a clinic supervisor but I don’t really think I want to manage people. I’m hoping to find a career that offers more diverse opportunities in terms of schedule, setting, and room for growth.

    I use EPIC in a clinical role right now but don’t have IT experience. I do enjoy editing, research, and working with data. I have some tuition benefits through my organization so could receive partial funding towards another degree or certificate.

    Thoughts or suggestions? I just feel really lost and stuck right now :(

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I am getting my Health Informatics degree online through WGU and I’m really happy with the program. The program prepares you to be certified as a RHIA, and I’ll also be getting my CHDA since I have been working in the field for a while. I hear that the certifications really do open doors to work in hospital and other healthcare settings, especially if you have some experience. I don’t want to sound like a salesperson, so I’ll keep this short, but a little tuition reimbursement can go a long way in the program.
      Oh, and Health Information Managers doesn’t necessarily need to manage people. There are many opportunities for auditors and quality personnel.

      1. OP*

        Thanks for your reply! Do you have any thoughts on the differences between health informatics and health information management? And about CAHIIM accreditation vs. non-accredited programs?

        1. AndersonDarling*

          I’m not too sure about the difference between Health Informatics and Health Info Management programs. I liked the HI program because it has a nice mix of IT, healthcare, ethics, and management. I needed a degree and I like data, but I didn’t want to be completely in IT.
          I don’t know if this is the best way to think about it, but I wanted a CAHIIM program because I was comparing it to being a CPA. Once an accountant has their CPA certification, it is much easier to find work and the certification bumps the payscale up. I looked RHIA on Indeed.com and saw many jobs required it (I never even heard of the designation before). And if I was going to put in the time, I may as well be in a certified program. And when I’m done with the degree, I don’t necessarily have to sit for the exam and be certified.
          I hope that helps!

    2. NBF*

      Do you interact ever with the informatics staff at your current workplace? If you tell them you are interested in moving into their line of work they may be willing to let you pick their brain about what their roles entail and how they got into their role and what it takes to be successful in their role.

      I’m in a similar setting to you, and several of the information services staff in our department moved from a more clinical setting into IS. Their clinical background is useful for them to understand the end users goal and work environments.

    3. PNW EPIC Analyst*

      Ha! A question I can finally answer! I work in IT and an certified in several areas of EPIC (Claims, PB, and Clarity). You are perfectly positioned to become an analyst who builds and maintains the EPIC system. I work at a health care facility that also uses EPIC and many of our analysts who do the build on the clinical parts of our system were recruited from the patient care areas of our clinic.

      Most of these people had no IT experience at all. But their clinical experience was vital, because it meant that they understood how a user (doctor, nurse, receptionist) needs to interact with the system. I would encourage you to watch for openings on the EPIC team in your own IT department. Other ways to get your foot in the door is to volunteer to be a “super user”. Once a person is selected to be on the team, you are sent back to Madison for many training sessions and that is how you learn to do the system build.

      Good luck! Our Epic build team has two RN’s, a pharmacist, several former MA’s and at least a couple of people who started out in reception.

  75. Summer*

    I’m looking for recommendations on ergonomic chairs (or backrests) for the workplace. I’ve been having some crappy lower back and hip pain recently, and I think sitting in my terrible office chair is partially to blame. I’d like to ask if I can get a new chair, but there are so many options I don’t know where to start! I am a short woman (5’2″), which might make a difference in what chairs work for me! Any suggestions from AAMers?

      1. Summer*

        A standing desk would be awesome, but I don’t think it would work well for my set-up. I do occasionally rig up my own standing desk if I’m just reading paper documents or something not on the computer by putting a storage bin on my desk and putting whatever I’m looking at on top of that!

    4. Nanc*

      I don’t know about your area, but in mine the Staples store has a program where they’ll bring out chairs for you to test sit for a couple of weeks. I have the opposite problem, I’m 5′ 10′ and I need a chair with good leg support for when I do sit. I have a jury-rigged standing desk for when I’m on the computer.

    5. Dynamic Beige*

      I’m not going to recommend a brand, but the thing to look for is how customisable is it. Some chairs have an adjustable lumbar support. Can you adjust the armrests? The seat tilt? The height? Herman Miller makes very nice, but expensive, chairs. You can get these options on cheaper versions, or you can find high-end chairs for better prices if you do some research. You might also want to read some stuff about ergonomics if you haven’t already. Many of those kinds of articles discuss best practices for sitting. A consultant came into our office at OldJob and gave a presentation on it, his best practice was to adjust his chair every 10 minutes to avoid repetitive strain — I couldn’t figure out how he got anything done all day, constantly adjusting his chair. Unfortunately, you’re just going to have to try some chairs out until you find one that works for you then pitch it to your boss at the best price you can find it. If there is budget, your office might be able to buy in bulk and save — which would also eliminate the “why did Summer get a new chair?”/I’m going to “borrow” it issues if everyone has a similar problem with the current chairs.

    6. Jessie's Girl*

      You should request your company provide you with an ergonomic assessment. If there is no one working at your company who is certified (I am at my company) then see if there is a Humanscale (or other similar company) in your city/county. They provide ergonomic assessments but at a kind of hefty price.

      Some things to consider: it’s not always necessary to “get new stuff,” sometimes you need to adjust what you already have.

      Let’s start with your chair: you want to have an adjustable chair: the seat pan moves backwards and forwards, the chair itself goes up and down the arms go up and down, sometimes back and forward. I like a chair whose armrests are attached to the back of the chair so that it moves with the back when you lean back. I also prefer armrests that adjust simultaneously.

      In terms of the seating, you want to sit all the way back in your chair, whilst people always say you want to sit up straight, sitting back is your actual natural seating position. When you sit up straight, you are using a lot muscles to maintain that position. Hence, the lower back pain. REQUEST A FOOTREST. This will take some pressure off of your legs and actually helps to encourage sitting back in your chair.

      If you find your monitor and keyboard are too far away, request a monitor arm and position it an arms length away and get an articulating keyboard tray, positioned with a negative slope an inch and a half above your lap.

      What not to get in terms of chairs: don’t get an Aeron chair. Full stop. They are actually not very good chairs and ergonomists will not recommend them (or at least they should). Don’t get a lumbar support pillow, they will do more harm than good. Those pillows are signals that there is an issue, they don’t resolve the issue themselves. Don’t get a chair that will not automatically adjust when you sit back. Don’t get a chair that will adjust too much. Also, be cautious purchasing anything “ergonomic.” There is no federal regulation on what can be called ergonomic. I can sell you an ergonomic pencil if I wanted to.

      I don’t really think it’s necessary to get a standing desk or a sit-to-stand solution. It’s actually not healthier to stand in place all day. What’s better is to to be moving constantly (an automatically adjusting chair helps if you’re like me and often rock or fidget). But, you should really be taking 3 breaks an hour. Just getting up and moving will help more than standing still constantly.

      Chair recommendations: I like Humanscale Freedom chairs (what I sit in at work), some people swear by Squig chairs. I’m not a fan of Knoll chairs.

      Once again, try to get an ergonomic evaluation. It will help your productivity in the long run.

    7. Name Required*

      Summer, I know that’s not what you asked, but in addition to a better chair, see if you can do yoga (if you can’t go to a class, search for Hatha Yoga on Youtube). I’m saying that because my husband until recently was suffering a lot from lower back pain. He fixed it with yoga, and now converted 2 other colleagues who experienced the same thing. One of them is still in his early 30s, very tall (probably has chair problems too because of his height), and now the 3 swear by yoga for fixing the pain. Do try it if you can because I’ve witnessed the difference in my husband’s quality of life!

  76. Jessica*

    Hello all,
    I am in a sticky situation at work that is making me extremely anxious and resentful. I was hired almost 2 years ago to administrative support to the QI department. Easy work that i’m frankly over qualified for, but i needed a job.

    In the past 6 months I have had my boss and co worker retire so now our department of 4 is down to 2 and we’re just drowning! I have been informed (not asked mind you) by administration that i am to “acting safety officer” co -worker’s position as well as supervisor of an entirely different department, all with ZERO increase in pay.

    I am now literally doing three full time jobs with a tremendous amount of responsibilities with no extra compensation.

    I have told both administraters that i didn’t want either extra position adn basically got told “tough”

    is this something i can/should go to HR about?

    1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      Unless you’re in a union (where usually job titles are tied to very specific duties that can’t be changed on a whim) or have a very specific employment contract (unlikely at the admin level, at least in the US), management can change the terms of your employment at any time, and you can either accept the changes or stop working there. It’s not particularly good practice on management’s part to overwork people for long periods of time without adequately compensating them (because that’s how you lose good employees), but there’s nothing HR-worthy about it, from what you’ve written here.

      1. Jessica*

        I’m a state employee and I do have very specific job duties spelled out, for X ammount of money.

        When I was hited i had 6 job duties. When those job duties were amended to take on a few more related tasks, i got a 6% raise to go with it.

        Now that the boss and my co worker are retired, admin called me up one day and just said “you’re doign this and this too now.”

        I’ve never spoken with HR or signed any new paperwork like i was required to do the last time i took on new duties. The work i am doing nw isn’t even remotely “additional duties;” it’s two full time positions that used to be filled by two full time employees.

        1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

          I understand what you’re saying, but – at least in the private sector – a boss can ask you to do as many jobs as she wants, and your choices are “do the work” or “leave.” Again, it’s not a reasonable course of action, since it would cost the workplace some really good employees, but it happens and there’s usually no recourse other than leave.

          Since you work for the state, I’m guessing there’s a more rigid structure involved, so it does seem like it could be worth a call to HR just to find out what’s supposed to happen when new duties are assigned. I would probably try to at least start out with a non-confrontational tone, maybe with a “hey, Boss just added X, Y, Z, and Q to my responsibilities, and I know these are outside of my existing job duties, so I wanted to know if there’s any paperwork/procedures that need to be taken care of with this.” You could also try asking if there’s any possibility of changing your job title/pay grade to reflect the new responsibilities in that conversation, if it makes sense to do so.

          With that said, I don’t think you can just straight-up refuse to do work that’s been assigned to you, and I don’t think it’s likely that HR would support you in that course of action.

        2. Julie*

          With government, read up on any merit rules or PAP. I know my municipality had a rule that if you felt your position was now misclassified due to additional work there was an appeal process to go through and while HR was involved, there was a separate merit board that would also review the complaint.

    2. Creag an Tuire*

      Ugh.

      I hate to ask, but have you seen any indications that the company is struggling financially? Having two positions not re-filled combined with no raises for the extra work is a worrying sign.

      1. Jessica*

        We’re a nursing home. We’re not in any danger of being shut down, but everyone in upper management are known tightwads.

        They get annual raises and bonuses but that never “trivkles down” to anyone that isn’t a doctor or RN.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This seems to be happening in a few places… we have a similar thing going on here.

  77. Lyra Belacqua*

    I got a job offer- hooray! Downside is that the contract has a lot of issues – I think this is the first time these small business owners have hired someone full-time, and there’s some shady/not entirely legal stuff there. Like wanting me to be an independent contractor but also wanting me to have a set schedule and place of work, etc. And saying that I’m financially responsible for damage and repairs to the business’s premises. Uh, no. Hoping that these weird things are coming from blissful ignorance and that we can work them out.

  78. Lamb*

    I’m going to be applying to architecture school end of this year. Between now and then I’d like to find
    – architecture/design-related part time work
    – architecture/design-related internship
    – an architect to mentor me on my portfolio and hopefully write me a recommendation when I apply to schools
    Any tips on finding those things?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Send a personalized email to each architecture firm in your area, explain you are enrolled in school and are looking for an internship for the summer. The ones in my area are always looking for interns, and if you contact them now, you may find a firm that will take you on now so they don’t need to go through the whole open application process/interviews later.
      Writing a recommendation is just part of the package when companies take on interns, so you don’t need to worry about that.

      1. Lamb*

        I am not currently enrolled in school. I am going to apply to architecture programs later this year and am hoping for work/internship experience that will make me a stronger candidate. The school applications require three letters of recommendation from professors and/or professional contacts *who are familiar with my work in a way relevant to architecture*. After an unrelated BA and several years of unrelated work experience, I have to find all three of these recommenders this year.

  79. insert pun here*

    Question for the masses: I occasionally pet-sit for coworkers and acquaintances. I am a big animal lover, so I am usually happy to do this, but I never know what to charge people. For close friends, I generally just do it for free, but for others, I am unsure what price to quote.
    If you hired someone to look in on your cat (or other small mammal) once a day, what do you think is a reasonable fee for that? How about if you hire someone to live at your place and take care of the pets onsite? I am in a east coast city, if that matters.

    1. Jessica*

      I’ve been offered $15 to $20 a day for checking on food/ water/ cleaning the box and if a dog or similar, to go on one walk.

      If I would be staying at their house and watching pet constantly $45 to $50 a day isn’t unreasonable.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      For a daily visit, I would pay $15-$20 as well, especially if that included bringing in mail, turning on lights, and making sure the house looked like someone was there.

      Pet-sitting in the house is more expensive. When I considered hiring a friend to stay with my dog, I actually determined her daily rent and planned to offer that to her with some extra (I think it was something like $40/day, so $15 more than her rent). We didn’t go that route because he’s better off in someone else’s home when mama and papa are away, but I would be willing to pay between $40 and $50 for an overnight dog sitter.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Check out dogvacay.com– it has a lot of local pet sitters with different levels of service, and you might be able to see what other people in your area charge.

    4. Petsitting anon*

      Hey, I used to petsit. See what petsitters in your area are charging. I would say $15-20. People usually charge more to stay overnight, because it requires being out of your usual routine and being more responsible for somebody else’s home.

    5. Lia*

      I am on the East Coast and petsitters in my large-ish city charge anywhere from $15-$25/visit for cats or caged pets. This usually includes feeding, watering, cleaning litter boxes, and 30-45 minutes of playtime. My petsitter is $20/visit but he also brings in the mail, turns lights on or off/adjusts the blinds, and will water plants (I have none, because cats).

      The stay-in-home price is, I think, $50/night, but my cats are fine with the daily visit. I get a little report card on their activities, too, which is always cute.

    6. Optimistic Red Velvet Walrus*

      Is there a way to find out what the average kennel in your area charges per pet and/or per day? You could take it down from that rate, as needed. I sucked at charging my friends, because they would say, “Eat or drink whatever you want in the fridge/pantry” or “feel free to do your laundry and watch TV” and they would take me out for dinner when they came back. That was a FANTASTIC exchange for me in those days.

      A favorite pet sitting professional in my former neighborhood charges $15 per day for one pet, $16 for two, $17 for three, etc. I made about $140 for watching three great dogs for one week, visiting them twice a day to feed them, play, and go outside.

    7. edj3*

      I paid $25 a day for our sitter to come to the house to feed our three cats and scoop their two litter boxes.

      I pay that same amount here in Kansas City because the woman doing it now is not at all bothered by my cowardly bully of a cat, Eddie. Eddie is 18 pounds and can be pretty fierce when he’s scared, but she’s not fussed by his antics. She’s worth every penny and if she asked for more, I’d pay it.

    8. the gold digger*

      We are so lucky – there is a teenager two doors down who feeds our cats twice a day and scoops the box every other day for five dollars a day. I always tip him, but I also think five dollars without taxes for ten minutes of work is not so bad.

      I hope he never leaves home.

      PS Midwest, medium-sized city.

    9. insert pun here*

      thanks to everyone for your responses! Man, I had no idea that snuggling someone else’s dog and watching their HBO could be so lucrative. : )

  80. Optimistic Red Velvet Walrus*

    First of all, an extremely belated (but no less genuine) THANK YOU to LMW, Natalie, and Steve G, who were kind enough to respond to my question in the open thread post about a month ago. You guys rock. (Comcast does not, or I would have remembered to reply sooner.) Anyway, two weeks after I posted, the company decided to go with a better-suited candidate, so it all worked out in the end, I guess.

    Second: I’m meeting with a career counselor for a consultation on Monday. Compared to the other counselors I looked up, she seems to be fairly sought after, accredited, and great to work with — and her web site didn’t scare or bore me (HUGE bonus!). I hope we can work together, because I sorely need some external perspective and guidance, especially since I might be changing careers. She also offers ADD/ADHD counseling, which really excited me as I suspect I have been dealing with some underlying and undiagnosed ADD-related issues for almost my entire life. Although my unemployment is about to run out in a few weeks, I’m 99.9% positive my family will help me cover short-term counseling service costs, because this is something they’ve been encouraging me to look into for a long time. At worst, I’ll still be job hunting if this doesn’t pan out … but I really, really hope this will lead me to find purpose and direction in my job search and, in turn, to get on with my life.

  81. nona*

    My mom’s job advice has gone from somewhat out of touch to actually offensive. It’s appearance- and gender-related.

    Do any of you have a script for ending unsolicited job advice that has worked for you? I can’t seem to get out of it without an argument. I tend to be blunt, she sees this as aggression or an insult, and it’s like speaking two different languages.

    1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      For non-mom people, I’d have a different recommendation, but since this is your mom and you presumably want to keep talking to her (about other things, anyway) and don’t want to fight with her, what about just responding to whatever she recommends with “I’ll think about it” + subject change?

      It’s not lying, because you WILL think about it (about how antiquated and offensive it is, but hey, that’s thinking), and it leaves your mom with nothing to argue with you about, because you just *said* you’d think about it, you’re not even saying she’s wrong!

      It’s not as internally satisfying as being acknowledged as the Rightest Person Who is Most Right, but it sounds like (a) you’re not going to get that satisfaction from your mom on this subject; and (b) even if you did, it would come at a cost you don’t want to pay (arguing with your mom and having her accuse you of being aggressive or insulting her). So don’t aim for being right – aim for harmony plus a subject change.

    2. Nachos Bell Grande*

      My sympathies! Can you try “I’m tired of talking work, let’s talk about the better parts of life” to redirect? If you want to tell her that she’s wrong, you could try something like “Thanks mom, but that doesn’t work in my industry.”

    3. edj3*

      My step-sister has the best line she uses with her (very opinionated) mother when her mother is giving orders thinly disguised as advice:

      “You may be right.”

      Then she shifts the conversation. If her mother brings it up again, she just lathers, rinses and repeats as necessary.

      1. Natalie*

        I do this all the time with my mom and it works great. See also “Hmm, interesting.” and “That’s certainly something to consider.”

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          Ah, nondefensive statements.

          “You’re entitled to your opinion”
          “Let’s talk about this later”
          “I’m sure you see it that way”

    4. Steve G*

      It’s hard to say without knowing what the advice is. Saying the advice is “appearance related” doesn’t necessarily make it bad, your family are perhaps the only people who can give specific advice on what looks good/bad for an interview without being considered rude for bringing up the topic. What kind of advice are they giving you? My dad’s job advice is pretty useless because he was blue-collar, and he lumps together all white-collar jobs in his head.

      My 86 yo neighbor gives me silly career advice such as “AT&T is a great company to get into,” (yeah, 30+ years ago), or “there are a lot of good companies on Broadway (yup, we are in NYC so I am pretty sure there are jobs on many streets here, but I’m not walking up and down Broadway asking for job apps!). I just say “thanks” and let her talk.

      1. nona*

        The advice is: I should ignore application instructions and just go door to door with resumes, and I will be hired on the spot because (in mom’s very flattering view, thanks mom) I’m an attractive young woman. It’s gross to me and pretty insulting to any hiring manager.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Tell her to read AAM and then the two of you can talk.
          Later, when she brings it up again, ask her “did you check out AAM yet?” When she says no, tell her she’s gotta read it and after she does you two will talk.
          Repeat as needed.

  82. Coinkydink*

    Over the last three months, I’ve been beefing up my LinkedIn presence and connecting with recruiters, and dyed my (currently very work appropriate) candy-colored hair something sensible. Suddenly, I’m getting more projects, I’ve been transitioned to a role that makes me happy, and am being put in a position to use my expertise.

    How much of a coincidence do you guys think that is?

    1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      Super coincidental! /sarcasm

      (Says the corporate lady who wishes she could put teal highlights in her hair but settles for extremely dark purple because it blends in with the super-dark brown enough that mostly people don’t notice it)

  83. Persephone Mulberry*

    TRYING THIS AGAIN.

    I posted this as a comment in someone else’s thread, but I wanted to throw it out to the masses as well. My husband has been working in retail for about 15 years – he had an 18 month stint as a church youth director about 10 years ago (which was his long term career plan but things went south when the church hired a new minister, which soured him on the work, and here we are today) – and is getting super, super burnt out on selling as well as the bureaucracy of working for a behemoth multinational company. He is the assistant manager at his store and has filled in as interim store manager on multiple occasions (the store is hiring its fourth manager in four years, and no, they’ve already told him he won’t be considered?? Thank you, bureaucracy).

    Anyway, he wants to get out of retail. He wants to “help people without having to sell things to them”. He has management experience. He does not want to go back to school. What fields/jobs should he be looking into?

    1. Vanilla*

      I will be watching this thread as well. My significant other has worked in retail for several years and is a manager of luxury goods store. He enjoys it but it’s really stressful for him, the hours aren’t ideal, etc. Plus, he feels like he can’t ever take time off because his job is heavily commission-based, so if he’s not there (or doesn’t sell, of course), he doesn’t make any money. My SO is a great salesperson, so I would really like to see him in a sales job with a corporation with more 9-5, M-F hours…especially if we have a family/get married, etc.

    2. I Am Groot*

      I’m curious about this as well…

      (If you don’t get as many responses as you’d like, maybe post again on next week’s thread earlier? I find that posts made after 11:30/12:00 don’t get as many responses.)

    3. IT Kat*

      Honestly?

      The field/jobs he needs to look into are the ones he is interested in. Then he needs to figure out what he needs to do to move into them (note: this does not mean he needs to go back to school, but it might mean he needs to learn a certain skill or skills).

      If he was interested in the ministry, why doesn’t he try to go back to that? I can understand being soured because the church hired a new minister, and I don’t know if you still belong to that church, but he can maybe work at an outreach program, or for a different church, or in a non-profit with a mission he believes in?

  84. Cheddar2.0*

    I think it’s time to ask for a change of my title (aka, a promotion!)
    In the past year, my work load has doubled, I spend about 75% working completely independently, I am required to use my own judgment for decisions, and I have much more authority (manage student workers, have a charge card, present at high level meetings, etc)
    My current job description explicitly says that I do not work without supervision, do menial tasks, am not using my judgment for decisions, no management. The union I’m part of publishes standard job descriptions, and based on these, I am doing work at least 1 level, maybe 2, above my pay rate.
    Now the hard part: how do I bring this up with my supervisor? She tends to act…a bit ditzy.. when I ask anything similar to this (e.g. I asked if my job would change after getting my Master’s, got a giggle and an “I Dunno!” in response)
    Please, any help with ideas, a script, documents I should have in hand, do I go to HR about this? I don’t know what I’m doing!

    1. Nachos Bell Grande*

      Is there another title within the organization that more aligns with what you do? You might try being specific with your boss, “Things have changed a lot over the past [however long you’ve held that title] and I love how my job’s evolved. Can we talk about changing my title to something that more accurately reflects the projects I’ve been working on lately? The stated job description for Teapot Workerbee says I complete Menial Tasks 1, 2, and 3, but I’ve been doing Major Tasks A, B, and C, which sounds more like Grand Teapot Overlord.”

      Good luck!!

  85. Employee*

    I might be looking into a new job in the near future. After graduating with undergraduate degrees in Finance/Accounting, I have worked as a Financial Analyst for the past few years. I have realized what I like and don’t like about my job. I really like using Excel, especially using different formulas to make nice models that the company can use. I love the functionality of it, and feel like my brain works well to understand how best to use the formulas. However, I don’t like the Financial aspect of it where I need to understand what the final numbers mean. I often zone out during meetings where they talk about financial results. I have a similar disinterest in Accounting too. With my described interests, what are some job options that I can make good money in? I am willing to get some training/another degree if I know it will help me get a new position, but would rather get hired from my experience. I was told that Business Analytics/Business Intelligence might be a good fit, but wanted to see if anyone had more insight.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I qualified as an accountant and didn’t like it that much, if you’re interested in excel models I assume you use write vb code? If that’s something you’re interested in you might like to consider system accountant jobs. Your accounting background will be a big help and all you really need to do is learn some sql and a bit about how relational databases work.

    3. Steve G*

      Most Business Analysts I know, including myself (including all other forms of Analysts, Sales Analysts, Operations Analysts, Market Analysts) need to get involved with where the data comes from, where it is going, what the story is behind it, how to customize it for different stakeholders, etc………

      Sorry, but if your only program of mastery is Excel, I don’t think you’re going to find a position where you just get to make models/spreadsheet without having the conversations that bore you. Maybe if you became an expert in Salesforce, Access, VBA, SQL, and another programming language or two, you could focus more on template building and macro-level data manipulation.

  86. J. Quackadilioso*

    Enthusiastic reader, first time commenter here! I hope this isn’t totally buried in the open thread. I am working on a cover letter that needs to be submitted this weekend, and I am wondering if I should address a minor point of clarification. I’m applying for a job at a trade publication; call it Chocolate Teapots Quarterly. My father works in the adjacent field of…cinnamon teapots, say. He and I have the same extremely unusual last name, and same first initial. We’ve both published work in our respective fields, where citation styles are typically last name-first initial, and he has actually been on an advisory board for another publication, Annals of Cinnamon Teapots. Now, it’s pretty obvious that he and I are different people — he’s a fifty-something man, I’m a twenty-something woman. But if someone were to just do some cursory Googling it would probably be easy to assume that the J. Quackadilioso who works on chocolate teapots is the same one who works on cinnamon teapots. Is it worth mentioning this in the cover letter? Or would it be insulting to the person reading it to assume that they can’t critically evaluate Google results? Or worse would it sound like I’m awkwardly trying to name-drop my father? I feel like this is more complicated than “I share a name with a porn star” because we ARE in similar fields, doing similar things, with a highly distinctive name.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Hm, I don’t think you should mention it in your cover letter. I would mention what you have published, but I wouldn’t point out that you and your father are actually different people in your cover letter. I think if it comes up in your interview, you should mention it, though.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’d leave it alone in your cover letter, and address it in an interview if you sense that there’s confusion.

      I’d also make sure your LinkedIn profile is up to date and public, and includes links to your publications. Bonus if your father also has an up-to-date profile, with links to his publications.

  87. KMC*

    Any suggestions on how to manage benefits? We’ve recently implemented a Simple IRA and a health insurance plan. We have multiple locations, and I don’t always know when we’ve hired someone new (and can’t require that they tell me). Assuming that I am aware of when they hire new people (I do have access to the payroll system), what are the best ways to make sure people are getting the information when they need it?

    Currently, I’m putting a reminder on my outlook calendar for 60 days to send the health insurance application out (eligible the first of the month after 60 days) for each employee.

    For the Simple IRA, I’m also sending out the information after 60 days, assuming they are eligible (have to make over $5,000). What do other people do? Do you send them the information at hire, and just change the period they can enroll to after 60 days? Or do you wait, and then give them a 60 day notice period?

    I’m wearing this hat in additional to my other hats, and while I like doing it, it’s a new thing for me, so I don’t know as much about it as I’d like.

    1. IT Kat*

      Whoa. You can’t require to be notified of when new people are hired, yet you are responsible for making sure that they get their benefit information?

      Maybe I am missing something, but this seems like a red flag on management issues.

      That aside – most places I’ve worked have provided a packet on my first day, and it usually included things like an employee handbook and all insurance/benefit forms. A lot of times it was a case of “You’re eligible for health insurance in 60 days. Fill this out and we’ll process it then.” It was easier because you had everything up front, then could just process it when your reminder popped up.

      That aside, I don’t see a downside to the way you are doing it now… other than the fact that the multiple locations all need to get on the same page about the importance of keeping HR up to date on new hires (you may not be HR, but it sounds like you are acting in a similar category).

    2. Arjay*

      As a new hire, I’d prefer to get the information up front. Especially for the health insurance, that would allow me to compare the benefits with those offered by my spouse’s employer and/or the health exchange programs available to me.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Can you make up “new hire kits” have some at each location and explain that each new hire MUST fill them out or they will not get benefits? Leave it up to the managers to deal with the 60 days wait period.

      It seems that if management is not offering you support here these programs will fail. I see that as being the bigger problem, too.

  88. Kate P.*

    I work in middle management for a national corporation at one of their remote branches. There are two positions above me in my office. The top guy quit in January, and his replacement started last month. During the transition period, I basically filled the role of a manager. His direct subordinate, M, who was nominally acting manager, was lazy and incompetent – she frequently would leave work for me because she “didn’t feel like doing anything today,” she refused to read any documentation on upcoming projects and actually wound up UNDOING a bunch of key work the team had spent days completing, and was just generally a nightmare. It was bad enough that I seriously considered walking out right then, but decided it would be wisest to wait and see what I thought of the new manager. M, in the meantime, did everything she could to make sure that she remained in control of key procedures when the new manager came – changing passwords, moving files, even going so far as to try to meet with the staff one-on-one and get us to promise that we would be exclusively loyal to her after the new manager started. I tried to go to HR and talk about it, but M is friends with someone at the corporate office who is in a position to block any efforts to fire her.

    Gods be praised, the new manager, C, is amazing. She is experienced, motivated… everything I hoped. The place has been doing phenomenally since she came, better than I’ve ever seen it. She’s also made it clear that she’s really impressed with me, and has told me point blank that after M leaves the job to go to grad school this July she intends to promote me to M’s position – a huge salary bump for me. The only downside to all this is that she and M are constantly butting heads, and she’s made me her confidante for the purposes of complaining about M’s ongoing performance issues. C and I spend a lot of time working one-on-one lately, and almost every time she has a new complaint about M, who has barely managed to hide her dislike of C. I understand that C needs to vent, and wants to feel that she has an ally, but it puts me in an awkward situation.

    I don’t know what is the proper reaction. My gut instinct is to spill the beans, tell her just how incompetent M is, how M has been trying to sabotage her and reseize power, the whole shebang. But I know that M’s job is basically safe – her friend won’t let her be fired before she’s scheduled to leave in a few months. Plus, I’m not exactly neutral – I stand to gain the most if she did get fired. That’s not why I want her gone, but I’m afraid of what it would do to my reputation if I told C the whole story.

    I don’t really know what is best, or how to approach this gracefully. I feel like C has a right to know just how bad things are, and to have the opportunity to try to do something about it, but how do I express it without sounding vindictive or like I’m trying to push M out of the way for my own gain? Is it best just to keep my mouth shut?

    1. C Average*

      Keep your mouth shut. Not just that, but be explicit about your intentions with C: “It puts me in an awkward position when you talk to me about M. I realize you’re just venting, but I’d rather be on a strictly need-to-know basis about M’s work. I need to work with M effectively, and it feels inappropriate to discuss her with you or to hear your thoughts about her.”

      It sounds like C already has a high opinion of you. If you take a principled stand on this in a way that makes it clear you’re not assigning BLAME on C for gossiping–you’re just setting some professional boundaries–she’ll only respect you more for it.

      It sounds like C is already doing the math regarding M’s shortcomings, and that if you stay professional, things are likely to work out for you.

      1. edj3*

        +1. And use what C Average wrote as your verbatim script. Nothing good can come from bashing M.

      2. Dawn*

        Yup yup yup. Deep breath, head down, big ole smile, and keep repeating “professional until July, professional until July, professional until July”.

        People like M dig their own holes. They think they’re being all sneaky and they’re soooo much smarter than everyone else until a good manager like C comes along and can see right through them. So let M dig her own hole- you don’t need to get dirty with her, and in this case it sounds like you don’t even need to hand her a shovel.

    2. Jaune Desprez*

      If I understand correctly, M is definitely leaving in two months and you’re probably going to be taking her place as C’s direct subordinate? In that case, I can’t see that it would do any good to give C all the background on M’s evil machinations, and I would keep my mouth shut about all that. On the other hand, I’d probably be hesitant to tell my new boss that she was being inappropriate in confiding to me. Practically speaking, you’re already allied with her, and that’s the way you want it. I think I’d probably end up doing a lot of nodding and saying “Mmm,” or maybe, “I can understand how you’d feel that way,” but not adding any fuel to the fire.

    3. Ann Furthermore*

      Zip it. If all goes well, in 3 months M will be gone and you’ll be in a much better position. I like C Average’s wording about asking C to keep her opinions about M to herself, but beyond that, it’s probably best to keep your mouth shut. 3 months is doable…if M wasn’t going to be leaving until next year, or had no plans to leave at all, that would be different.

  89. McShane*

    A few weeks ago an employee I manage and I interviewed people for a vacant position in her department. The candidate we selected asked good questions, seemed interested in the job and aligned her experience with the requirements of the position. We offered her the job. However, because we’ve been so busy, we called back another person we had interviewed, but decided wasn’t as good a fit as the person we hired, for a part-time temporary assignment since she was not currently working. She had no questions in the interview, didn’t seem enthusiastic about the job, and the way she described her experience didn’t appear to relate to the work we do.

    So we’re in a unique position to see how the person we rejected for the full-time job is now doing compared with the person we hired. And, now my employee and I think we might have made the wrong decision. The person on the temporary, part-time assignment picks up on new tasks very quickly, speeds through her work, is very accurate, and has a great personality!

    What do we do? We only have room for one long-term. If the trend keeps up, my employee wants to let the person we made the full time offer to go, and bring on the part-time person full time. To me that seems wrong because the other person is good, but not great, and she gave up her job to come here. My boss agrees with my employee, though.

    1. IT Kat*

      So… I noticed you are full of praise of the temp, but don’t mention what the full-time person is doing wrong.

      Is it just that you like the temp better? You mention she picks up tasks quickly and is fast and accurate in her work, and that the other person is “good but not great”.

      Have you tried managing the other person to be great? Is she making mistakes and not as accurate? Address them. Is she slow to complete assignments? Address it.

      There is a chance that you just need to guide her and she’ll be just as great as the other person. Personally, I think you have an ethical responsibility to at least give the full-time hire a chance.

      1. McShane*

        Well, you can’t really train someone to be fast or pick up on things quickly. The other person gets through her tasks, but it takes her so much longer. Accuracy is the same for both. The full time person seems like she’s so afraid of making a mistake, while the part-time person is more confident, which is why I think the part-time person’s speed is better). It also takes longer to train the full time person on a new task than the part time person, again not something you can coach someone on being better at than another.

        1. IT Kat*

          Actually, I’d like to politely disagree.

          I agree, you can’t train someone to work faster. That’s true if it’s simply a matter of just being naturally unable to work faster. But that doesn’t seem to be the case here, in case I’m missing something.

          You point out that the full-time person is afraid of making a mistake, and you believe that might be part of the speed issue. That can often be helped by coaching someone. Even just a sit down and a frank (but encouraging) conversation about it can help. For instance:

          “Jane, we’ve noticed that you often seem hesitant, and as a result, take longer to complete tasks than we would expect of a person in your position. We believe you can do the job, and the work you turn out is of the quality we need, and we’re happy with it. However, we’d like you to be more proactive and take ownership of tasks and training items, so that we can bring your speed up to where we need it. For example, you spent X time doing Y, because you were asking questions of Sam to make sure you were getting the formatting of the letter right. Instead, we’d like if you used your best judgment on formatting (or insert whatever example makes sense here).”

          Has anyone made any attempt to coach the full-time employee, or let her know her job is in danger if she doesn’t change?

          Maybe I am missing context, but what it looks like you’re saying is “We like this other person better, and it’s hard to have difficult conversations and coach employees, so we’re going to let her go.” Trust me, your other employees will notice and it will damage your reputation as employers. Maybe coaching her will work, maybe it won’t, but ethically it is the right thing to do as opposed to just firing her.

          I’m speaking from personal experience here. One of my prior managers had a very similar conversation with me, and it made a world of difference in my work. I stayed there for 5 years after that.

          1. McShane*

            That’s actually not it at all. My employee coaches her staff constantly and has been coaching this person as well. It’s just that this part-time person is a superstar. The full time person is just average. She’s in line with our other employees, but she has less seniority. We can’t train the full time person to be a superstar. And we can’t keep them both.

          2. McShane*

            Also, I’d like to add that had we never brought on the part-time person, we’d be happy with the full-time person’s abilities. But my employee feels like she’s missing out on the opportunity to have this superstar on her team. Despite that, I don’t take the stance that my employee does that we should let the full-time person go and keep the part-time person. I think we made the offer to the full time person, she does a good job, she works hard, and she left her other job to come work for us.

            However, the skills the part-time person has are above average, so it’s tough to convince my employee and my boss that we should keep the average full time person on, because you can’t coach someone to be a superstar. It’s unusual to find a person you can give very little guidance to on a new task, at a new company, with a new system and have them come back quickly, not with questions, but an accurate finished product, and that’s what we have found with this part-time person. When someone starts off this strong, they typically only get better. The full-time person will likely get better too, but I think she lacks the natural ability and intelligence of this part-time person to get to the same level.

            It’s just interesting to me that none of this came through in the interview for the part-time person. We think she was just very nervous and didn’t prepare for the interview.

            1. Kerr*

              One perspective for your employee and boss:
              What message would you be sending to the superstar part-timer if you fire the full-time employee?
              If I were that temp, I would be HORRIFIED to learn that an employer fired a competent employee just because they wanted to hire me. It sounds like everyone agrees that the FT employee is good, even if not great, and that she’s not doing a poor job or lagging behind – it’s just that the temp is a superstar. What you (the employer) would be telling me, in effect, is that if at some point I’m slow or make a mistake or have more questions in a stretch area, I could be tossed off the boat as soon as a shinier possibility comes along. That is not cool, nor likely to inspire loyalty or confidence. The FT employee made a good-faith committment to her new job; firing her would be a jerk move without some serious problems behind it.

              1. McShane*

                Yes, exactly. This is how I see it too. But so far at work and others I’ve had this discussion with side with my boss and employee. I can see their perspective of not wanting to give up a superstar, but the way that they want to go about keeping her seems so wrong to me. I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking this.

  90. salad fingers*

    Has anyone here ever had appendicitis? I had an emergency laprascopic appendectomy yesterday and I’m wondering when realistically I can expect to be back at work. Surgeon was hard to pin down on this. I have a follow up appt in one week and he said we’ll decide then. I work at a desk. Any thoughts?

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I would be really hesitant to advise this! While I know it’s frustrating to wait a week, many times doctors give solid reasons for keeping you at home. I’m assuming you’re still on pain meds, for instance, and even if you think you’ll be fine… you might not be. And yes, you had a laprascopic procedure that’s less invasive, but you had surgery and you need to heal. If staying home presents a true hardship, then please at least try to nail the surgeon down on Monday, but it’s better to assume upfront that he has his reasons than to regret going essentially AMA later.

        1. Andrea*

          I had lap surgery twice, including an appendectomy. You feel fine once the meds wear off, just don’t bend or pick up stuff. Your incision is most likely glued together, so you can’t help it or hurt it any. Staying at home is overkill for any length of time.

          1. salad fingers*

            Yeah, I’ll definitely take the surgeon’s advice to wait until our follow up, but it’s good to hear that you healed quickly. I just wanted to get a sense of whether this will be a week or a month or what- sounds like barring complications it should be more like a week. In the meantime, I’ll be in bed with Norco and a lot of stupid daytime TV.

            1. catsAreCool*

              Can you ask someone to pick up a few DVD’s from the library for you? That can help pass the time.

        2. Ann Furthermore*

          Yes, this. My mom had emergency surgery last Monday to clear an intestinal blockage. It was done laparoscopically, which was great because it was less invasive. They sent her home Wednesday afternoon, but she was back in the ER that evening because she was having trouble breathing. Thankfully, the ER doctor on call was a pulmonary specialist, and my mom really liked him (better than her surgeon, who had zero personality or bedside manner).

          She asked him what he thought about her planned trip early next month to go visit friends in Savannah. He said just because the surgery had been done laparascopically didn’t mean that it wasn’t a major procedure. He said that there’s a tendency to dismiss these types of procedures as “just” this or “just” that because they weren’t invasive, but that she’d had major surgery at the age of 84. Yes, it went well, and yes, she’s in excellent health, but her body needs time to recover.

    2. edj3*

      My appendectomy had complications and wasn’t done by laprascopic surgery.

      But I did have another operation done that way and was given three weeks short term disability. The thing is you don’t want to end up with adhesions (painful internal scar tissue) nor do you want to get an incisional hernia. Best to take the time off.

    3. Elsajeni*

      Not appendicitis, but I had a laparoscopic gallbladder removal several years ago. I was a student at the time; I had my surgery on a Friday morning and went back to class the next Tuesday. It worked out okay, but I was definitely kind of out of it for the first few days I was back in class, and that’s with the advantages that I a) only had to be in class for half the day or so, b) had not been very sick before my surgery (mine was scheduled), and c) was very young and much more resilient to injury/illness than I am these days. If I were doing it again I’d give myself a full week.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I can’t advise with any exactitude, because I haven’t had this problem, but you should know something after your next appointment. I know that when I had my gallbladder out, I could not have gone back in a couple of days because my body did NOT like what had been done to it. It took me about a week to feel well enough to go back to work. I tried to go off my pain meds too soon (I hated how the hydrocodone made me feel), and BOY did I regret it!

      You need to allow time to recover–your body sees surgery as a trauma, especially after an organ decides to be a complete asshole and make you sick on top of it. So take the time to recover. I’m glad you’re okay!

    5. Ann Furthermore*

      I have, but I was 10, and it was the 70’s. So I probably have nothing useful to add. :)

    6. OfficePrincess*

      I had my gallbladder and appendix removed laprasocpically a few years ago in the same scheduled surgery. Honestly, the appendix was the part that took the longest to heal. It was 4-5 days before I was really up to being out of the house for any length of time. It took a little bit longer before I could comfortably sit for an extended period of time, so I would imagine it would be miserable trying to work.

      Your surgeon didn’t want to make any promises yet since everyone heals differently, but I’d guess you’ll be in much better shape in a week and back to work shortly after. If you can though, see if you can return to work midweek so it’s not as long until a break.

    7. Renee*

      I had a lap appendectomy, and the doctor put me out for two weeks after I left the hospital. I was in the hospital for nearly a week (mine ruptured before surgery and the doctor was worried about either infection or a reaction to the antibiotics). I was fine to work when I returned, but I was still very sore and had to wear roomy clothes for at least a week after as my abdomen was swollen. I was cleared to exercise and lift things after 30 days. I had all sorts of assurances from people that didn’t know that I’d be all better in a short amount of time, but I would say that two weeks was really about the right amount, and I could not do certain activities completely without pain for at least three months (like certain ab exercises).

  91. Andrea*

    SALARY NEGOTIATION GUIDES/RESOURCES

    Anyone want to pitch in their favorite (short) guide to salary negotiation? I know this was a topic here this week, but I am looking for the best short guides to this (pointers on how to open, how to wait them out, how to set your own reserve point, etc.) would be of use.

    THANKS

    1. Ann Furthermore*

      For my first job with my current company, they asked what my salary requirements were and I threw out $X (based on research, and what I’d made in my last job). This number was at the high end of what I was expecting. When the HR person called back with the offer, it was $10K less than $X. I asked if we could “split the difference” and have the salary be between what I’d asked for and what the original offer was. She immediately said yes (which of course made me think I should have asked for more) and that was that.

      The job prior to that one was a consulting position with a base salary and a quarterly bonus. I asked if I could forego the bonus and have my salary be $10K higher than what they offered me. I’m not really a fan of bonuses because they can vary so wildly, and my proposal of a salary of $10K higher in all likelihood would have been less than the annual bonus payout. This proposal was turned down, because the salary + quarterly bonus structure was kind of an industry standard. So that negotiation was unsuccessful, but in that situation it didn’t hurt to ask.

  92. Anonyby*

    Thank you to everyone who replied a couple weeks back, when I asked about resources for preparing to start a small business.

    Today’s question is related to that… How do you handle otherwise well-meaning people who are getting pushy about starting the business?

    I have two people in my life that are getting a bit pushy about it–my best friend and my dad’s girlfriend. Both are normally awesome, and they’re being pushy in different ways. Dad’s girlfriend (I’ll call her Amy to protect names) is genuinely excited about the idea of me starting a business… She wants to help with label design and she got teary when we got my first practice labels printed for what I was giving away as Easter gifts. Meanwhile, my best friend (Nancy, not her real name) commented at Easter that I “really needed” to start selling.

    It gets really frustrating, because I know I’m far from ready to start the business. Not just education-wise… But for everything. It’s especially hard for me with Nancy. She’s also working on starting a small business (on a product that I’ve also considered). For hers, she just needs to register with the county, get a tax ID, and open an Etsy shop. For that particular product she can start with just a tiny number of products and still be in the clear. For the product I’m looking into… not so much. There’s a larger number of laws/regulations that I need to be in compliance with, insurance that I need to purchase (which ups the starting cost overall), and because of the higher starting costs, I would need to move a LOT more product. (At miminum, 10x what I’m making now that others are seeing as a sell-able amount, probably more.) I don’t have the money to put into insurance and that much product up front, there aren’t many places I could set up a booth to sell in-person (especially with my work schedule), and internet sells wouldn’t be able to move enough product to pay for it. Not to mention the lack of space I have to create and stockpile my product. And once I do get it running… the profits are unlikely to ever amount to more than pocket change.

    They just don’t seem to be able to grasp these realities of the business. In the meantime I’m trying not to flood my friends and look for more people to give free samples to, but that’s hard.

    1. Dawn*

      “How do you handle otherwise well-meaning people who are getting pushy about starting the business?”

      Have a script! When they get pushy/offer advice/whatever, have something to say that is non-committal and shuts them down, like “I’ll think about that!” or “Yes there’s a lot to consider” or “Things are moving forward” and then just re-direct the conversation. Use your mental energy on starting your business, not arguing with well-meaning people about the minutiae that may or may not be the best way to start a business.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Try to estimate your time frame given all these necessary evils you have to handle.
      Once you have figured that out, sit them down and explain your time frame.

      I think they just don’t realize that you did not mean “tomorrow”.

  93. C Average*

    Honest question: What do you do about a bad manager?

    I’m not talking about a manager who does something clearly and definably egregious like sexual harassment or embezzlement. I’m talking about a manager who damages morale by yelling a lot, being unavailable/uncommunicative, failing to do anything to develop her direct reports, that kind of thing.

    My husband and I got to talking about this, because we’ve both had to deal with managers who caused a lot of problems for their direct reports. Mine has tried to be too chummy, resulting in weird relationship dynamics within the team that interfere with effective collaboration and lead to unfairness in workload, project opportunities, evaluations, and other aspects of the job. His (well, actually his boss’s boss) has been abusive and degrading toward a number of his direct reports in large meetings, leading to fear, defensiveness, and a culture of blame-shifting. I’ve seen managers in my company verbally abuse their direct reports, shirk managerial responsibilities like providing timely evaluations and providing strategic leadership, and any number of other stuff. Bad managers exist. We all know it.

    But what do you DO when you have a bad manager? Going to HR feels like sour grapes in cases like these, where the problems are interpersonal in nature. Gossiping to peers feels petty and accomplishes nothing. Talking to someone above the manager in question feels inappropriate from a hierarchical perspective. Talking to the manager herself is problematic for many obvious reasons. Bitching and moaning in the AAM open thread is therapeutic but ultimately not constructive. If anything’s to be done about these people, how? Often THEIR managers are oblivious, so there really isn’t any accountability.

    1. Jennifer*

      Honestly, the only thing you can do is leave. If you can’t leave, then you put up with it and shut up in public and complain in private. That’s how life works.

    2. Anon for this one*

      This is a very good question. I don’t really have a good answer.
      My current manager is affecting morale and we are dealing with this very situation – what do we do about it. When your manager doesn’t seem open to questions or comments about your job, is she really going to be open to comments about her? We’re already feeling scared and insecure, and are getting rampant feelings of insecurity from the higher ups. And you’re right, going to her manager about it feels a little inappropriate.
      We just had a workplace survey and there is a lot of discussion about how honest to be. I tried to be at least a little honest, but I don’t know if that will help anything or not. For us, it’s just a wait and see right now. I think pretty much what will happen is that good employees will leave, and then they will wonder what is going on. I’m still not sure if anything will change, since like I said, the insecurity is everywhere right now.

    3. Graciosa*

      Leaving is generally the best option.

      If you think about it, in a battle between and employee and a manager, the manager is going to win. This is not a fight you want to start.

      There are a very few exceptions to this – generally in the category of Large Employer’s HR would want to know about this because Bad Manager is violating the law. Failing to provide strategic leadership, for example, is not going to rise to this level.

      There are a few techniques you can use to manage some types of bad management (micromanagement or verbal abuse for example) but it generally takes more energy than it’s worth to try to manage a boss in this way, and the long-term success rate is not in your favor. I think they’re mostly useful to give you ways to feel like you’re handling this a bit more proactively (much better for your mental health) while you look for another job.

      1. C Average*

        Thanks for responding.

        It’s not so much about starting a battle. It’s about, wouldn’t that manager’s manager, or someone higher up in the organization, WANT to know the manager is doing a poor job? Then they’d be in a position to actually do something about it, or at least have awareness of what’s happening.

        I so often see these people remain in place year after year because they’re good at other aspects of their job, and I think there’s literally no awareness outside of their immediate teams that people hate working for them. There’s no accountability, no consequences, and thus no improvement. It’s as though once you reach a certain level, you’re allowed to release the full force of your horrible personality, and no one can do anything to rein you in. Once you reach this kind of position, you achieve the corporate equivalent of tenure.

        1. Graciosa*

          If the organization wanted to know, they would put processes in place to find this out.

          Mine does – and my boss meets regularly with my direct reports (without me) to find out how things are going. My boss’ boss meets with them regularly as a group (without either me or my boss). My boss’ boss’ boss has been known to ask related questions in other private meetings with individual contributors.

          Exit interviews are performed at a high level within our organization, and taken seriously with feedback discussed at the VP level.

          Unfortunately, your default assumption should be that your organization’s management is already paying attention to what is important to them.

          It is possible – where you have a good relationship already with your boss’ boss – to share some information in ways that don’t get you in trouble. For example, “Just wanted to check my email to see if Sue approved my vacation yet – my spouse has been getting worried about losing the opportunity to buy advance-purchase tickets” if the boss never gets around to approving vacation. Good managers are alert to this, and it is relatively low risk.

          But the fantasy of scheduling time with someone in HR or your boss’ management to talk over issues with your boss’ management skills or style rarely works out in real life as people hope. Some people do get lucky – or there are opportunities with changes in management – but actual change requires self-awareness and emotional maturity (even if management takes it seriously and offers real coaching rather than a pro forma “Might want to work on that.”

          Self-awareness and emotional maturity are not always present in Bad Managers.

          Bad Managers are more likely to go back to their offices buoyed by the righteous certainty that there is nothing wrong with their behavior, but fortunately they have now discovered the problem subordinates who need to be weeded out.

          This is the battle you didn’t want to start, and you will lose. This is why leaving is generally your best option.

          1. C Average*

            This totally makes sense. And, honestly, it’s a moot point. I am leaving. I have four more days. My husband has begun exploring a move to a different business unit at his company to escape the guy he’s been dealing with.

            This is what led to the conversation: us wondering what volume of voting-with-your-feet it would take for leadership to recognize that a particular manager was a problem. It really doesn’t seem like anyone is clued in at all about the harm these people are inflicting.

            Recently an extremely unpopular manager at my company was fired. I don’t know why he was fired, but firings here are very unusual and you usually have to do something pretty over-the-line to get fired. The general speculation is that he probably got fired for something other than his poor management. He had access to a lot of sensitive data, and my hunch is he did something dishonest and got caught. (That’s the kind of thing you DO get fired for here.)

            There was much rejoicing on his team, which seemed to take the department’s senior leadership by surprise: I heard more than one upper-level person note that they’d never realized he wasn’t well-liked by his direct reports. This amazed me. The rest of us could hear him screaming at people, even with his office door closed. We could see people emerging from meetings with him in tears. We saw the vicious emails he sent, strategically, only to people who didn’t outrank him. He was a classic, classic example of kiss-up-kick-down. And there are so many people like him.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Most times upper management has no idea and if you try to tell them they just laugh. Bad managers do not exist in a vacuum. They exist because it is allowed.

              I have to chuckle. I have worked a few places where the immediate manager was something else. People thought they could go to the big boss and have success. Nope, it did not work.

              As far as working on the manager to help them improve- you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. The manager is lacking basics and you cannot give them basics. If they do not know how to say please and thank you, that is because they have chosen not to learn. Likewise with other basics. Your only hope is to try to get them more in tune with you. And the way to do that is to act as if you are trying to get more in tune with them. Yeah, a smoke and mirrors type of thing. They are a lot of work.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                PS. The last time I tried to do something about a bad manager, I actually was able to sneak a message to the top. Yeah, I was impressed with that one. The Top said, “We have bigger fish to fry.”

        2. Jaune Desprez*

          I’m so sorry you’re in this situation. To be honest, I think your last two sentences are perfectly accurate: sufficiently high-up bad managers are allowed to release the full force of their horrible personalities, and it is the corporate equivalent of tenure.

          I can’t say whether this is true in your situation, but I worked in a department where it was known to all that the boss was a loathsome excuse for a human being. But she was also highly efficient. Her employees left in droves, but the highest levels of the organization made a conscious decision that her strong points outweighed the costs of finding constant human grist for her mill.

          Leaving well is the best revenge.

        3. ThursdaysGeek*

          You’ve heard about seagull management? It seems to me that when bad managers are given tenure like that, that it indicates their manager is also bad. And like the earth sitting on turtles, and it’s turtles all the way down, bad management that survives means it is seagulls all the way up.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          If they cared whether the manager were doing a bad job, you’d be hard-pressed to know it at some companies. We had an appallingly bad manager (not mine) at Exjob and he was solidly there for a long time. I honestly don’t know why they kept him on, unless it was product knowledge. He bullied, he was lazy as hell, and he was a total asshole. Nobody liked him, not even customers. After the layoff, someone who is also mercifully out of that mess told me he got fired. I would have paid actual money to be a fly on the wall for THAT conversation.

          The flip side of that–during my job hunt, I had random attacks of terror that I would get a job somewhere awesome and Bullyboss would be there. Worse, that he’d end up being MY manager.

      2. AnotherTeacher*

        +1 to all of this advice

        I worked for a terrible manager who was not even good at his actual job. A few of us went to HR. Nothing happened. We also went to his boss. Crickets. Moving on is all you can really do when the organizational culture allows poor management.

        1. C Average*

          Ugh. This seems to be the consensus, so I am filing this one under “it is what it is” and moving on. But it’s disappointing that it not only is what it is but that so many people seem perfectly fine with that.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            My theory is that it’s one of the reasons we have so many problems in this country.
            Health care costs are through the roof and NO ONE will consider the effects of a toxic workplace on the employees. Boss treats you like crap, take a pill.

  94. HR Shenanigans*

    I just got the best news possible – my amazingly awesome intern to whom we offered a full-time job has accepted. I am so, so excited that she’s going to stay on.

  95. Anonymous too*

    I recently applied to a job and want to follow up soon (a few days after the application deadline)
    There are 3 bosses, 1 big boss and 2 other partners who are both under a year on the job. Should I go directly to big boss? I worry that he will be too busy to deal with me. So…

    if I pick one of 2 juniors, please help me to professionally phrase this:
    “you don’t know me, but I saw your Linkedin and found out you worked here and in another job I was at. ”

    does the same job history help at all?

    1. Dawn*

      “I recently applied to a job and want to follow up soon”

      Let it go. Unless you have a close, personal working relationship with either the recruiter or the hiring manager AND you gave your application directly to them AND it’s been at least a week since they said they’d be getting back to you: LET IT GO. Reaching out to totally random people on LinkedIn to follow up on an application is way, way too aggressive. AAM has oodles of stuff about this in the archives and in her How To Get A Job book.

    2. fposte*

      To put it another way–no, you don’t want to follow up. Sometimes it gets recommended as a way to keep you in people’s minds, but it’s generally not a good plan. You’re already in their minds from your application, and you don’t want to be in their minds as somebody who’s bugging them about the job–especially when the application deadline just passed.

      And I’m not getting where you’re going with the text of your proposed email–that doesn’t sound like following up anyway, it’s information they’ll have from your resume, and the timing of this email is clear that it’s not about the fact that you two used to work at the same place but about your job application.

      Just sit tight, have faith in your application, and if you don’t hear a week or so after when they said they’d get back to people, you can email to ask about the time frame for decisions. But otherwise it’s best just to let them work through the process.

  96. Rebecca*

    Super frustrated this week. Terrible communication, and I really don’t like finding out I’m supposed to be doing things via email like “why haven’t you done X, Y, and Z??” Uh, well, if someone had told me this was part of my job responsibilities, I’d be happy do to this, and on time, but I really had no idea. And finding out about new workloads from someone I’ve never dealt with, from an office in another state, via “adding correct action person” type of drive by email. No head’s up from my manager, nothing.

    My coworkers are frustrated too. One of them had packed up her things and was ready to walk out when talked down by her office partner.

    I’ve just mentally checked out of this whole thing, and am waiting for a decent opportunity to come up so hopefully I can make a move that will allow me to keep a roof over my head. That’s really the only standard I have now. It’s such a frustrating and convoluted workplace it’s not even worth complaining about.

    2. Sara*

      Oof, I feel you on that. A couple months ago I filled in for another position briefly, and that position had a lot of responsibilities that nobody told me about upfront – so I didn’t do them, because I wasn’t told they existed (and in fact was told “The scope of this position is X and Y” when in fact it was actually X along with A and B). It was annoying to find out what I was supposed to be doing when people started getting mad at me for not doing A and B, and also highly concerning because there are very strict laws in my field about A and B and we could have faced serious legal consequences for my failure to do these things (again, because I was not told that the job encompassed A and B).

  97. RG*

    So, a recruiter tried to set up a phone screen with me twice, but failed to call me both times (the second time being this morning). I’m alright with giving her a third chance, but is even that too much?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      That depends on how much you want the opertunity they are offering.

      The worse recruiter I’ve dealt with promised to set up a phone interview for a excellent job I really wanted, and then went off the grid, ignoring two emails I sent asking what was happening. Then 6 months later phoned me about another job role for a big law firm in London, I jumped at the chance of an interview and went to meet the firm, I never heard a thing back form the recruiter about that job. Then a month after that I got a template email that was all about catching up with clients and would like to know if I’m still looking for work and what sort of roles if be interested in!

      1. RG*

        Uh, that sucks. Flakiness/unresponsiveness is the worst because we hate when people do it to us but we’ve all done it to someone

    2. RG*

      The good news is that she called me back! The even greater news is that she wants to pass on my resume to the firm!

      So here’s my second question: a while back, I interviewed for a position at another law firm. Because of their firm’s hiring process, and because one of their main clients was merging with another company, we knew it would take some time to move through the different stages. Should I mention this recent opening to the recruiter for that job? Should I wait to see if I get an offer?

  98. Awful Waffle*

    Question about work at home days…

    Until recently, my department’s work at home policy has been pretty relaxed. My manager’s philosophy is that as long as you are responsive and getting your work done, you can work at home as much as you like. There are different managers in our department that don’t allow their employees to work at home very much.

    This week, the department head explained that there have been some complaints that other teams work at home more than others, so they’ve felt the need to institute an official policy. The new policy drastically cuts down on the amount of time we are allowed to work from home. The policy had nothing to do with people not getting their work done or being responsive – basically, some people got upset because they aren’t allowed to work from home because of the nature of their jobs (administrative assistants, for example) and they want to be “fair” to everyone.

    I’m hard core looking for another job anyway and I’m considering petitioning to work from home full time. This isn’t a hill to die on, but it was just really bothers me (and my manager) that it was working well for our team and now we are being punished. Also, my manager will be working at home full time in a few months because he is moving across the country, so I really don’t see the need for me to be in the office much.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      This is complete bullshit, your manager should have the power to run their team anyway they like as long as the team are delivering what they need to and if other managers can’t or won’t operate in the same way then that’s on them to explain to their staff.

      I worked for a decent boss who was flexible and reasonable and the other managers in the office told him to stop as he was making them look bad, he said that he would carry on managing us how he was and that the fexlibilty he gave us was repaid many times over by the extra work we put in.

    2. fposte*

      I’m not actually opposed to having consistent policies across a business, but 1) it’s a kick in the morale if they’re instituted by taking an established privilege away and 2) I don’t see how it makes things any fairer, given that the administrative assistants still can’t work at home.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      That’s utter crap. Some jobs by their vary nature preclude working from home. The company shouldn’t act in a punitive manner just because some people are butthurt that they can’t sit on the sofa in their t-shirts and sweats and watch SpongeBob and Judge Judy while they fiddle around with their spreadsheets. (Not like I do that, or anything….) I’m disgusted on your behalf.

  99. AmyNYC*

    What do you consider “working late”?
    I usually stay until 6:30/7, but my job that must be done at the office and in the weeks leading up to a deadline, people often work 10-12 hour days (ugh, I know, and I hate it). Company policy is to reimburse a cab home if you work late, so I’m just curious what everyone’s thought are.
    Personally, 9 pm is my breaking point – it’s not so late that I feel unsafe to take the train, but after 12 hours in the office, I just don’t want to. Is that reasonable?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Hell yes, I think that’s reasonable. 9pm is post-rush-hour– fewer trains. You just want to get home. Take the cab.

      1. Natalie*

        Or earlier, depending on the transit system. A lot of the suburban bus routes in my city stop running at 6 or 6:30 pm and our baby train system doesn’t have much coverage in the suburbs. If you keep people who use public transit at work even until 7 pm they may well be stranded without a cab.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      In the question earlier this week about babysitting reimbursement, there were a lot of comments about employers reimbursing for cabs and the common theme seemed to be after 7:30 p.m. or so. 9:00 at night would definitely qualify in my mind!

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I typically work 8-5 or some variant thereof (lately it’s been 8:30-4:30 so I can avoid rush hours since they’re working on the highway, plus the commute is putting me on my last nerve). I don’t mind staying past five, but if it went past six or seven, I’d probably start to get antsy and lose focus. It rarely happens that I do, since I’m non-exempt. If I did I’d just knock off early the next day so I don’t go over 40 hours.

  100. Amber Rose*

    Sort of a silly question today guys. I’m organizing an open house for our company for next week. The sales guys sat on their hands for weeks and are only just getting me lists of people to invite. -_-

    We already ordered food for like 200 people and I’ve had all of 30 RSVPs. I was already sending back quick thank you emails to everyone who contacted me, but now I’ve started adding “please pass the invitation to anyone else you think might want to come.” Is that too pushy? I want to make positive impressions on people but I also don’t want this thing to flop.

    As a side note/rant, I keep having nightmares about getting fired. My boss likes me and I’m loaded down with responsibilities and decision making power, why am I so worried about this? Ugh.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      That doesn’t sound pushy at all!

      Also, have you mentioned there will be food? No one will feel ‘pushed’ if they’re being invited to an event with free food.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I needn’t have worried turns out. I’ve now got back a couple “we’ll be there, want to come to ours?”

        So they’re doing it too. :D

        And I have been mentioning food. My boss has even offered to buy beer.

  101. Hasbrown: No Filter*

    I need a place to vent.
    My coworker is driving me crazy.

    Some of the things he does:
    Clips his fingernails at his desk (yes, really, I wish I was making this up)
    Crunches on celery and carrots at his desk so loudly I have to put headphones in not to go batty
    Talks/laughs so loud I can’t hear myself think or the person I’m talking to on the phone
    Leaves his phone at his desk and his ringer on
    Plays music from his cell phone’s speaker without headphones

    And the worst part, he’s a super nice guy.

    Ugh. I wish I could mute him

    1. Amber Rose*

      If he’s a super nice guy, why not address some of this with him?

      “Hey Joe, can you maybe mute your phone and use headphones when you listen to music? It’s a little distracting to me to hear that while I’m working.”

    2. puddin*

      None of that sounds all that ridiculous to me, but I am not the judge am i? :)

      Regardless, I have found great relief in a white noise channel on you tube when I need to drown out my co-workers. There is one that runs for three hours that I like. Try it out on your computer with the sound unmuted.

  102. Anon-JUST for now*

    I am a semi regular commenter and have asked questions here before, so I wanted to go anon for this one, as I’m a bit embarrassed to ask. Long story short, I have had a few jobs since I graduated college in 2012. I moved around once because I was let go, and for both other positions I took since, I left the previous company in great standing and with plenty of notice. The problem is that I’ve hopped around a bit – I got a degree in an arts major and have since decided not to pursue that career full-time. I’m feeling lost because what I was thinking I’d do for the rest of my life is not my career path anymore, but I’ve begun to build a strong career in marketing, and I do well at it.

    Now here’s the problem – I’m not happy. And I’ve worked at 4 places post college, 2 really great, 2 not so great. I have a decent idea of what life will look like for someone with my skills and career path, and part of me hates it. I don’t want to sit in a desk all day. I feel so burnt out already from coming in day after day and sitting at a computer, and I’m afraid it’s starting to show. I’m very into natural lifestyle, fitness, and holistic interests and want to work somewhere I can pursue these interests while moving around throughout my day. I do know of a few places where that would work for me and that I would love to work at. Think Whole Food, REI, etc.

    Now to my actual question: I’ve been at my current job for a few months, and I think it would be best if I stuck it out here for at least 3 years to keep my resume looking good after the job hopping. How do I stay here and do good work until I decide to make my move to one of the other options I am considering? Also, knowing that I will be making a complete career change and will likely take a pay cut for a little while, how do I prepare for this? Should I just go now and not worry about the appearance since I’ll be in a new field? Any advice will help. Thanks!

    1. Amber Rose*

      Take my advice with a grain of salt, but I say go sooner.

      Life is too short to do something that makes you unhappy. You can explain the short work term by pointing out that you’re changing fields to follow your passion (I got a job that way myself).

      At most I’d suggest stick it out for one year to show you gave it a solid effort. In that time, do your homework. Find out which positions at which companies would meet your goals, and find out what they’re looking for in an employee.

    2. Graciosa*

      Four jobs in less than three years (assuming you graduated in the summer of 2012) is a lot of job hopping. As a hiring manager, I would be very skeptical of whether you had the maturity and professionalism to stick around for more than a few months if I hired you.

      I also want to caution you about assuming that companies that support certain lifestyle choices will have a work environment free of the things that trouble you in your current job. An accountant for REI still has an accounting job – you want to be careful to avoid romanticizing the job because of the identity of the employer.

      Madeline Kahn once responded to a question about how much fun working on the film Clue must have been by pointing out that she liked Twinkies, but didn’t assume that the people working in a Twinkie factory were having fun all day. You might want to keep this in mind.

      All of that said, if you’re really convinced that you have finally figured out what you want to do with the next phase of your professional life, you might as well start working toward this now. This doesn’t mean quitting immediately – think seriously about how to position yourself to succeed on your new path.

      What do you need to change careers successfully? If it’s money (or the ability to live on less money) start saving now. If you need other skills, start building them. If you need a track record of good performance to switch employers, start figuring out how to earn a good reference at your current job (and showing up and sighing out the window doesn’t count).

      You may need to find other outlets for your passion for a while – do the things you enjoy after hours and on weekends to help give you something to look forward to after work. You may need to discipline yourself that you can only do Fun Thing if you finish Work Thing to a high standard before you leave. Attitude matters.

      Please be very, very certain though that this is not normal adjusting to what it means to have a responsible job as an adult. There are a lot of people who go to work in an office and would rather be elsewhere.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Someone I know does the corporate thing because they need money. They teach yoga part time because it’s their passion (and they learned they physically can’t teach it full-time). Much of what they do with their yoga teaching involves taking a lot of courses, which aren’t cheap and they have decided to specialise in a certain kind of yoga that I didn’t even know existed. So, they work at something that brings them the money they need to follow their passion. Lots of people do, only the extremely lucky get to turn their passion into their profession… and sometimes people find that doing that, they lose passion for what they loved.

        If you want to pursue something more holistic like being a naturopath or whatever you think would be more fulfilling than what you’re currently doing, see if you can do night school/weekend courses to work towards that goal. Unless you win the lottery tomorrow, odds are you aren’t going to have the money or want to borrow the money to finance a new career. You could take some massage therapy (or whatever) courses and after a bit decide it’s not what you wanted, either. Some people take longer to find something they enjoy doing and you may be one of those people. There’s nothing wrong with that — just don’t shoot yourself in the foot if you can avoid it! It can be hard when you’re not happy to just want. results. NOW! I know I have to fight that sometimes. Try to find things in your current job that are good, instead of focusing on what makes you unhappy and use your off hours to do what you love/figure out what you want.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I like both Amber Rose and Graciosa’s advice.

      I read what you wrote carefully and what I’m tempted to say is “oh for god’s sake, just get out”.

      I understand that not everybody gets to really love what they do but I do, and dammit, why not try to be happy? Why not now?

      The reason I like Graciosa’s advice is that you should probably listen to her instead of me.

      Still if you’re okay with less money, you need to plan on less money for awhile, like years. Is that an okay trade off for not wanting to be trapped in a desk job? Are you okay with non-standard hours and having to do whatever it takes to start all over again? That’s a lot of coupon clipping.

      None of us are getting younger. If you can make the money work, just go. (But read everything Graciosa wrote.)

      1. Anon-JUST for now*

        Thank you all very much for your replies. Just to clear it up a bit, I was actually working for a while in my first professional job before I graduated from college, so I put in 2 solid years there. My next job was 1.5 years. So the last one I was at (which ended up being a terrible fit as it was run by an extremely overbearing boss and I didn’t know until I got in there) was the only super short one. So I did graduate in 2012, but I had already put in a year and a half at that job working almost full-time during school.

        Actually at this point I don’t make a lot of money. If I were truly to make a transition, it wouldn’t be too much of a cut for a long time if I went to the right place. I’m a hard worker and I have high standards for my work, so I hate feeling so low as I know it has to be hurting my productivity. I don’t want that! I’m not 100% positive it’s sitting behind the desk that’s killing me, but I do know that something is making me unhappy, and it’s been a common theme in my office jobs.

        I worked for 6 years in other industries including retail and hospitality before getting jobs in offices, and I definitely enjoyed it. I just feel silly because I’ve worked toward challenging professional jobs like what I have now, so it seems odd for me to want to just throw that away and help people in a grocery store or provide customer service. I’ve always been told that you go to school and work in offices to get away from service jobs or those where you have to be more physical. But it’s okay to be happy with something simple and less challenging or less stressful, right? BTW, I do know there is plenty of stress in dealing with customers. But I just think it’s a different type of stress.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          It’s not silly!

          First of all, I love sales. I love sales. I *love* working with customers.

          There was a time, I’m going to say 2001 through 2006, where it made sense for me to remove myself from our day to day operations. I’d grown the division from literally just me and a photocopier to something of some size. It made sense for me to turn the day to day customer related management over to other parties and focus on being Upper Management, and launching our internet operations and Taking Many Meetings.

          Can I tell you how freaking miserable I was? Very!!

          I wasn’t smart enough to change my job back again because I was miserable, but I did reinvent it for business reasons and am thrilled to say that I’m back involved with what I love every single day again. I look at my time away from the part of the job I love best as my time wandering in the desert. Now I’m smart enough to say that I’d never go back again because it would make me personally miserable and that’s a good enough reason.

          If I don’t personally have interactions with a few customers a day I am not happy.

          1. Anon-JUST for now*

            Thank you so much. I really appreciate hearing that. Again, totally not knocking customer service or careerists in service industries. I was just always told by my family that I needed to go to college to at least position myself for a professional career wearing a suit and heels. I’m the first person in my family with a BA and I feel like they would be disappointed in me if I took a pay cut and sold wine at Whole Foods (which is a really great option for me, to be honest). It’s a tough spot. I am very fortunate to be where I am at my age of 25, so I feel guilty for not being happy.

            1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

              IDK about Whole Foods but as far as I know, selling wine at Wegmans is a career thing. I know someone who was about your age and thrilled to get, I think asst manager of the local stores wine dept, because first of all it paid decently and second of all, it was absolutely a way up.

              I also know a young person who was a cheesemonger at Wegmanns and same thing. They were very invested in his growth and training in all things cheese geekery.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              About ten years ago, I read that Whole Foods pays their managers about 120k per year. I think I could learn to scrape by on that.

          2. C Average*

            This is interesting, and definitely resonates with me. My first role with my company was consumer-facing (primarily in social media) and I actually loved it. I’ve really missed connecting with the people who actually USE the products for which I write support content. I’ve even pursued roles that would be a step backward or at least sideways career-wise, just to get some of those contact opportunities.

            I’m sure others are different in this regard, but I have a very hard time maintaining enthusiasm about a product line when I’m not actually seeing how it benefits end users. Without that connection with consumers, it’s just stuff, and I’ve never been much of a stuff person. Despite some introvert tendencies, I’m definitely a people person. I’m also someone who has to know, actually KNOW, that my job involves me doing something useful. Without any way to connect to the people who are buying the products I’m supporting, how do I really know whether the company is doing a good job and whether I’m doing a good job?

            1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

              Team that!

              I also love marketing but only up to the point where it is about how the customer is going to react and how the customer is going to be served.

              It limits the size I want to grow our ops. I think 2x current is the max for keeping sales and marketing so tightly integrated but so what. That’s plenty and everybody I work with likes the way we’re set up now so, there you go.

        2. Graciosa*

          It is absolutely okay to do something that suits *you* rather than the person everyone expects you to be.

    4. Anon-JUST for now*

      Thank you all very much for your input. I value each of your opinions and will take it all into consideration. I know what is likely best is for me to stick it out here for a few years, whether or not I end up making a career change, at least to give my resume that stability.

      I think it’s a great idea to work on some things outside of work that would begin to immerse me in some of my other options and passions and see how that works for me. Then when I’m ready to make a change, I can make an educated decision. Again, I am thankful for the responses!

  103. Mockingjay*

    Good news!

    Our small corporate office (in another state) has recognized the issues we have locally with inexperienced management and a demanding customer, and hired a truly excellent manager to oversee our contract. He retired some years ago from the Big Government Agency that we support. I know of him through mutual contacts, and the word is good.

    I met with him yesterday and I feel so much better. He knows contracts, he knows the BGA, and while he has not worked on our program directly, he is familiar with similar efforts.

    I actually want to go to work each day, now.

  104. Anon4this*

    Can I just vent? Been waiting to hear back about a possible offer for a few weeks. They are checking references this past 2 weeks.
    Got a call at 5:20 pm from them and an email asking to schedule a call asap. I called back 20 mins later and no answer. Sent email. No answer.
    So now I have to wait until Monday to find out if I’m getting an offer or a rejection or even some other issue. Argh.

    1. Dawn*

      Ugh being left hanging over a weekend is THE WORST! Here’s hoping Monday brings you good news!

    2. TNTT*

      This happened to me when I got my first job out of college. Email at 5:15 saying “when are you available for a call” – I respond immediately saying “anytime from now until about 7pm, and all day tomorrow” – they call me THREE FULL DAYS LATER with a job offer.

    3. thisisit*

      ok to make this weirder – one of my references just messaged me to say that she was contacted last week, and has emailed back twice saying she would be happy to give a reference, but hasn’t gotten a response. so she hasn’t given her reference yet.
      my correspondence with this org has been all through email – this is literally the first time i’ve gotten a phone call or would have had a phone conversation. so.

      1. thisisit*

        huh, i just noticed that my original comment didn’t post under my usual name – whose name is that?? THIS DAY HAS BEEN SO WEIRD.

  105. Tempo*

    I’ve been a contractor with one company off-and-on for 2 years (including several short term projects and what has turned into an 18 month extension); they kept me on after my assignment ended and have extended my contract through the end of 2015. I’d really like to work be an employee rather than a contactor, and I am continually adding projects and responsibilities to my plate – including picking up some duties of retiring employees.
    I’ve been told that the company doesn’t like to be asked about contractor becoming employees. My guess is that there’s nothing I can do till the end of the year when my contract is up again; or should I broach the topic earlier?

    1. Graciosa*

      You don’t broach it now, but you can take some steps to spark that (internal Company) discussion at whatever the right time is in your industry for you to start looking for work to start in 2016.

      Unless you’ve omitted important information, Company not have an option on your continuing services after the contract expires. The smart thing for you to do is to look for the type of work you want in time to have a job lined up starting when this one ends. The polite thing to do is to advise Company (and your current employer) that you have decided to look for permanent work and will not be available for a further contract extension. The strategic thing to do is to line up references who can speak to the quality of your work.

      If Company wants to convert you, this is more than enough to trigger that discussion within Company without violating any cultural norms by asking for a permanent job outright. If they just don’t do that – or aren’t going to do it for you – then you’ve made it clear well in advance that they need to replace you, and hopefully put yourself in a good position to get the kind of job you want elsewhere.

      Good luck.

  106. Lauren*

    My boss told my director that they were delaying my review because of training of reviewers on the new system as well as not contacting a client about me for their feedback only internals, but this same boss makes a joke about doing a co-worker’s (Jon) review and how the same client gave amusing feedback. This same client told Jon that I was their favorite person, but someone was upset by a metric they didn’t understand – which put me on the spot.

    We’ve had 2 rounds of layoffs in 3 months due to losing clients. Starting to think i am next if they are delaying my review, but not others.

  107. emmbee*

    I could use some advice!

    I just came back from maternity leave. This time last year I was offered a role at a different company that I felt was too junior, and plus I was newly pregnant, so I declined.

    This week they came back to me (yes, a year later) to see if I wanted to lead the team — so, a significant step up from what they offered me last year. There are lots of pros and cons and I’m having a lot of trouble sorting them out.

    Pros: great company, a bit of a salary increase (not huge), a different line of work (similar to what I do now but technically, a whole different thing), a chance to learn new things, more visibility to the public, job perks (they’re more start-uppy, so lots of snacks and occasional travel, etc.).
    Cons: I have it easy where I am. I’m a new parent and I leave at 5 to get home to my baby. I can do my job by heart. I’m well-paid. This new role would probably be more work — so I’d leave at 5, put my kid to bed, and then spent 1-2 hours (supposedly) working at night.

    I guess I’m just looking for any insights from anyone who maybe switched jobs immediately after having a baby. I really don’t know what to do!

    1. Dawn*

      Where do you want to be in 5 years? 10 years? Both personally and professionally? Then once you figure those out, look at the jobs side by side and figure out what you want to do- an answer should become obvious!

  108. jmkenrick*

    Book recommendations –

    I’ve nursed a life-long dream of opening a bookstore/coffee shop. I’m well-aware that this is a venture against the odds and it’s certainly not something I’m doing in the near future. However, I’d love if anyone had any book recommendations about the nature of opening this kind of endeavor (or really, any ‘starting your own business’ sort of books – truly, there are a ton out there and I’m having trouble figuring out which are useful).

    1. Amber Rose*

      I don’t have advice, just wanted to express my empathy. If I have one passion in life it’s books. I have always dreamed of running a bookstore.

      Maybe look into franchises?

  109. DeLurking*

    I have a question for all ya’ll. (I’ve been lurking on Ask a Manager for a bit, and am temporarily coming out of the shadows.) I’ve been following the excellent advice here, and have been getting more calls for interviews, but still don’t have a job. I’m wondering if there’s a better way to be looking for jobs.

    Which job websites do you recommend when looking for job listings? I’m currently looking for an admin assistant job in engineering in the Southern California area, and I’ve been looking on Craigslist and Monster. Am I missing something by not looking on, say, CareerBuilder?

    I’ve tried some of the websites that are supposed to be aggregates and you can just search for certain keywords, but haven’t found them very helpful. I just end up frustrated because I end up with random jobs that don’t seem at all related to what I was looking for.

    Thanks!

    1. katamia*

      Craigslist and Idealist (DC area–I found Idealist less useful when I was in Los Angeles, although there still might be some admin positions there) are the only two that I’ve found useful. Monster and CareerBuilder have never given me any useful results.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Craigslist is awful. For the most part, nobody reputable uses it.

      I take a 2 step approach to job hunting. The first is picking a couple good sites. Monster. Your local government might have one. Indeed. Even LinkedIn.

      Then you start the slog. Unfortunately you probably have to be prepared to sort through tons of crap to find anything interesting. I usually spent 2 hours at it.

      The second step is identifying interesting companies and looking through their job openings.

      1. Merry and Bright*

        The Admin jobs page on the UK version carries ads for prostitutes and men advertising for women. No kidding.

    3. Xarcady*

      Craigslist really depends on your area. In my current, semi-rural area, there are a lot of real jobs on Craigslist. When I lived in a big city, it was not so good.

      Check out your state department of labor or employment security or whatever it calls itself. My state has its one job aggregate board, and it is free to all users, not just those on unemployment. I’ve found job postings there that I haven’t found anywhere else.

      Don’t overlook your state employment opportunities, either. The state job postings in my state get their own website, which is not the most user friendly, but there are some good jobs going there, in all parts of the state. Depending on the type of engineering you are looking for, there could be a state job out there for you.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        It may also depend on the field. Nonprofits use it slot…it’s free. I’ve hired people for tons or professional roles from craigslist postings. There is a nonprofit section, so we don’t get lost. we just can’t afford Monster and the like, and some of our jobs aren’t the kind of thing someone moves for anyway.

    4. HigherEd Admin*

      For college graduates, often your college career center or alumni center will have job listings that alumni have access to.

    5. Dawn*

      INDEED.COM Love it love it love it. It’s how I got my current gig. Also Glassdoor and Beyond.com. I set up alerts for Indeed, Glassdoor, and Beyond and got curated job recommendations in my email inbox, and I found there wasn’t a ton of overlap between the three.

    4. Elkay*

      Out of interest, what’s the benefit to trademarking? Is it purely to stop someone else opening up a website or other business and using your name?

      1. Natalie*

        Basically yes. Although a trademark only protects you from someone with the same kind of business, IIRC. So I could open up Coca-Cola Real Estate or Ask A Manager House Painters if I wanted to.

        (Obligatory 30 Rock: Tracy Jordon’s son’s Donald and his hilarious business failures. “Daddy, can I have fifty thousand dollars to start a business where people can call in and get air quality reports from all across the United States? I’m gonna call it… American Airlines!”)

        1. TNTT*

          Technically no – there’s another level of “famous” marks that can enforce across pretty much any category of goods or services. Ask A Manager House Painters would probably fly but I pity the fool who tries to open up Coca-Cola Real Estate…

          2. Natalie*

            Ah, good to know. Is there some kind of exception for before something was famous? Like McDonalds – there’s got to be a bunch of companies with that name that started 50 years ago or whatever, when McDonalds the restaurant chain just had a regular trademark.

  111. So Frustrated*

    How do you break into a different field??

    I’ve started jobhunting in earnest, ever since a couple months ago when the 3rd round of firings happened in my dept. They’ve been dumping age and salary for ~3 years, and I’m now the third oldest and third longest-tenured. So my turn will be next.

    But. There are hardly any jobs in my field around here (editing/writing). I have a paralegal certificate so I’ve been applying to those jobs too but I keep running into situations where they call me in for an interview but make it clear they’re looking for someone w/ specific experience. (So, why call me??) I do have experience using certain legal research websites, and I am familiar w/ the practice of law in general, so it’s not like they’d be just pulling some nobody in off the street.

    It’s to the point where I’m seriously considering applying to a local trucking firm that promises to pay for your training.

    #2–I’ve been trying to look for editorial jobs I can do remotely but my search for ‘editor+writer+remote’ on Indeed brings up jobs that specifically say ‘remote work NOT allowed’. And others that don’t have the word anywhere in the listing so I have no idea why it came up. Any tips??

    1. katamia*

      #2 I’ve had better luck looking for remote work jobs looking specifically on work-from-home sites rather than other places. Some of these sites are a little precious IMO, but I have found work through them. realwaystoearnmoneyonline.com and wahadventures.com are two that I like, as well as the forums at wahm.com (the M in that one does stand for mother, but I’m not a parent and the resources they have are just as good for non-parents).

      1. So Frustrated*

        Thanks! I’ve been wary of sites that promise exclusive wfh because of all the scammy/spammy ads that are always popping up promising $10000/mo for no effort. I’ll check those 2 out.

        And I’m really looking for something that’s an actual employee situation, if at all possible, rather than a string of freelance jobs. For one thing, I’m the one w/ the health insurance in the family.

  112. Anonymous #980*

    I am pretty desperate, and need some serious advice. Please read!

    I am close to completing an MBA specializing in marketing, and have been without a steady job for 2 years. Prior to that, I was not in a marketing job, but do have some marketing on my resume. One of the reasons I am not selected for interviews, and when I do interview, I am not a finalist, is the lack of cohesiveness on my resume. Also, marketing and social media trends change rapidly, and if you are out of the loop for a couple of years, you’re in a pickle.

    All in all, I have been looking for a job for 4-5 years, because I was searching before my 2-year old situation referenced above. I have paid to have my resume revamped by experts. I have networked like a mad woman. I have put my best food forward in interviews. I have gone to the career center at grad school. And now, I am running out of savings, and starting to seriously wonder if I am missing the boat at 40 years old.

    Here is where it gets tough: I can get a survival job, but in my field (and those of you in marketing, let me know if you disagree), that would probably put me even further away from my goal. Let me explain. When I look at professional marketers’ profiles on LinkedIn, I rarely ever see “administrative” or other survival jobs in between. I have come to realize that we are at a time where employers like to see you growing in your career, otherwise, they think something is wrong with you. If I go to temping or being an admin, I feel like I will never use my MBA.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      Have you tried creative agencies (as opposed to the more generic ProStaff places)? There are several in my area that specialize in placing marketing-related contractors, including for higher-level roles.

      I am actively trying to break out of the admin rut and get a “proper” marketing job – I’m still working on my bachelor’s and will be 36 when I finish. Yikes.

    2. Traveler*

      Can you delay graduating for a bit and taken on some internships? Maybe some paid ones? I know it might seem strange to intern when you’re not in your early 20s, but there are people that do it. Especially MA/MBA/Law interns.

      Could you temporarily offer free or low cost consultations or services to smaller or newer business that can’t afford the cost of a full time person, to get the experience?

      When I changed fields a while back those were the tactics I used to realign myself into my new career. I can’t speak to marketing specifically though.

    3. Just me*

      I’m a marketing manager. If I were interviewing someone for a peer or management role and they had never actually been on a marketing team, I wouldn’t be impressed. Your degree doesn’t make you an expert marketer. You need some tangible experience in the field. B school strategies will be helpful, but it’s understand how to modify those strategies for customers & prospects that counts.

      An internship will help. Maybe start looking at a lower level role to get your foot in the door. With experience, your MBA should help progress in your career.

      I am involved in a lot of hiring. I want to hear what people have done, not what they think they can do when hiring for senior roles. For junior roles, it’s more on what I perceive on the ability to be trained.

  113. super anon*

    I don’t know if this belongs in the Friday thread, but it’s something I wanted to throw out to the older readers on the blog to get their opinion on because I don’t really know where else I could ask a question like this.

    I’ve been watching Friends lately for the first time and in an episode in the first season Rachel decided to apply for a job. The episode starts with her and all the friends stuffing resumes into envelopes to mail to companies. Later in the episode Rachel gets a bunch of mail from all the places she applied that were all rejection letters. A little while later she gets another letter asking her to come in for an interview. Finally, after waiting all day and not letting anyone use the phone because someone might call, the woman she interviewed with calls her to let her know that she didn’t get the job.

    So, my question is, is this actually how looking for a job would have gone down in 1994/1995? I can’t imagine companies actually mailing everyone rejection letters? Did you really mail in resumes? Was it common to get a letter back asking you for an interview? Phones existed in 1995, why wouldn’t they just call you in to interview? And to that end.. email existed in 1995, was it just not common place to use email yet for job applications? And would employers really call you to tell you you didn’t get the job? Hell, while I’m asking questions, how did people even look for job openings before the internet and sites like indeed?

    1. super anon*

      Oh, and one more question while I’m throwing out questions relating to 1995 – why could no one use the phone while Rachel was waiting for a call? I’m fairly positive call waiting/call display existed back then, no?

      1. cuppa*

        OMG! What a great question!
        I did not have the Internet in my home until 1997 and probably didn’t get an e-mail address for my personal use until 1999. Maybe that makes me behind? Not sure.
        This were just very…different for a while. I would say the first time I used a computer system for a job was…. 2002, I think. But I actually sent in a paper application and resume for my current place of business, which was seven years ago. I *think* that was the last time I did one, and we converted to online just after I was hired, but paper resumes and applications were around for a lot longer than you would expect. I’ve actually gotten mailed paper rejections in the last couple of years, too, although I think those are going to more e-mail now as well.
        As for call waiting/Caller ID, they were around at the time, but I think you still had to pay additional charges for them in 1995, so that might explain why they didn’t have it. Another thing to think about is that sometimes tv shows are a little behind on these things to appeal to a wider audience. So, for instance, Call waiting might have been available in NYC at the time, but maybe not in smaller cities. So, a lot of viewers would relate more to Rachel keeping everyone off the phone than they would the call waiting clicking on.

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          Re: call waiting/caller ID – those guys didn’t even have inline voicemail,they had answering machines, so yeah,not surprised there was no call waiting. (They do get call waiting later – Monica’s mom calls while Rachel is on the phone with Paulo in Rome.)

          1. Arjay*

            This cracks me up because I still use an answering machine at home. My landline provider charges extra for voicemail, and I’m too cheap to pay for it when the answering machine is free and can be accessed remotely. I do have call waiting though!

            1. Elizabeth West*

              I did the same thing, used a machine. I wasn’t going to pay for something my cell phone did for free. Now I’m landline-free and I don’t have ot worry about it anymore.

      2. LMW*

        I don’t think it’s too far off. My family never had call waiting when I was a kid/teen in the 90s because it cost more. And email wasn’t that common outside the work world in the early/mid 90s. I think I got my first hotmal account in 96 or 97. If you think of it in the context of Rachel being a waitress and Monica being a line or sous chef, it’s totally reasonable that they wouldn’t have call waiting or email.
        And yes, snail mail rejection letters were the norm back then. I think they probably would have called for an interview, but the phone call to reject her made sense in the storyline, since they really hit it off in the interview. (I just watched this episode last week.)

      4. ThursdaysGeek*

        I don’t have call waiting now. On the other hand, my monthly phone bill is always under $50.

    2. Elkay*

      I started job hunting in 2005 and I definitely got letters inviting me to interview. In fact my husband missed out on an awesome interview because he failed to get his mail redirected when he moved house in the middle of a job hunt.

      2. super anon*

        letters to interview in 2005? wow! i had a cell phone in 2005, so i find it crazy to think 10 years after that friends episode companies were still sending out letters! these replies are blowing my millennial mind~ :p

        idk if anyone here was on the hiring manager side of things in the time of letters to interview, but wouldn’t it make things way more inefficient and slower to have to wait on snail mail being sent out? what was the rationale behind letters? was it because people didn’t have answering machines or voice mail back then?

        (i’m sorry i just have so many questions)

    3. IT Kat*

      I know back when I was first job hunting, not everyone had email or even a personal computer. And even if they had a personal computer, they might not have internet access (it was a luxury, not a utility like now, and there were a LOT of places that just flat out didn’t have an ISP covering the area). Cell phones were something rich people had, and all they did was call and MAYBE text, unlike the smartphones of today where you can surf the web and send and receive email.

      So yes, we did mail resumes and/or drop them off in person. Both things that nowadays are a straight up DO NOT DO. However, I remember being called for interviews, not getting anything in the mail. And I don’t remember rejection letters… unless maybe you had gone through the interview process, but much like today, if you weren’t under consideration you probably didn’t hear back. Employers being rude hasn’t changed any. :(

      As for how people looked for job openings before the internet – we used the newspaper and Now Hiring signs in businesses. But mostly the newspaper. ;)

      1. Cordelia Naismith*

        I got some job rejection letters back in the day. But yes, I agree with everything else you said. Call waiting did exist back then, but we didn’t have it — most people I knew didn’t have it.

        And you used classified ads in the newspaper to find jobs!

        1. IT Kat*

          Yeah, we didn’t have call waiting either – or caller ID, or call waiting. Those all cost extra. ;)

      3. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yup, look through the ads in the newspaper, send snail mail resumes and cover letters (on nice paper), maybe get a phone call for an interview, but usually no response at all.

    4. oops!*

      Almost nobody had e-mail in 1995, and if they did it would tie up the phone line so she wouldn’t have been available for a phone call.

      We used to use the newspaper or trade magazines to find out about jobs.

      1. super anon*

        oh yeah, i had forgotten that dial up used the phone line so no one could call! in my house we had 2 phone lines, one that was dedicated to the internet and one for the phone so you could use the phone and the internet at the same time. i think at one point we may have had a 3rd one for a faxline for my grandparent’s business, but i don’t really remember.

        my grandfather was a computer programmer so we also had email in 1995. i forget that not everyone was as connected as i was growing up!

        1. Natalie*

          I’m the same say – my dad is a website developer and before that did graphic design and commercial illustration, so we’ve had computers around since as long as I can remember. I had an email account in 1994 when I was around 10, although I don’t recall actually using it for anything.

    5. Mockingjay*

      Don’t forget about the paper.

      I cleaned out my secretary a few weeks ago (furniture, not person) and found an old folder with the cream, heavyweight bond paper and envelopes I used for my resume after college – in the 80s! Beautiful paper, looked new. Types and prints so prettily. (And I still have my wonderful Adler electric typewriter with elegant font. Staples carries typewriter ribbons.)

      Using cheap paper was never an option when applying for a job. (I love stationery stores!)

      Anyone remember typing tests and using carbon paper to make copies?

      2. danr*

        Yep. I took typing in high school in the summer along with a bunch of other kids getting ready for college. The teacher was very upset that we weren’t interested in typing as fast as possible, but wanted to be accurate, if slow. Her business students during the year loved the speed tests.

        1. Shell*

          Ha. I remember there was a class in high school that was, essentially, learning to type.

          At the time, I typed about 90 WPM with high accuracy. A friend of mine could break 105 on a good day.

          Within the first two weeks my teacher learned to ignore us (we were model students so at least we didn’t disrupt the class) because there was nothing to learn for us. He was required to give us the typing exams periodically, but every time he did he prefaced it with “I don’t even know why I bother, we both know you’ll ace this”.

        1. fposte*

          Is that the purple ditto ink? Oh, that was amazing. I miss purple text on all school stuff.

    6. Traveler*

      The mailing or faxing your resume in was still a thing into the early 2000s. The newspaper or word of mouth was how you found out about jobs. And, holy hell, this discussion makes me feel old (no offense OP).

    7. C Average*

      Back in 1996, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I graduated from college.

      I’d had some part-time jobs before, and I’d gotten them by actually going to the place of business and asking, “Are you hiring?”

      They gave me a paper application, which I took home and filled out. If I really wanted the job, I used a typewriter. This was obnoxious, because I was used to using a computer and had only used a typewriter in typing class in high school, but it was also the only way to fill out a form, other than by hand. I have good but not amazing handwriting and thought it would look nicer typed, and that typing rather than writing would demonstrate my conscientiousness and desire for the job. (I think I may have gotten this idea from my mother.)

      After graduation, I began looking for a Real Job, and I mostly looked online. But even when I found jobs online, many of them asked for applicants to snail-mail their materials. And they’d then snail-mail their responses, or sometimes call. I don’t recall ever getting email responses in the late ’90s. I think the first job I got primarily via interwebs was in 1998 or so. Every job I’ve gotten since then had an online application and primarily online follow-up process, with in-person interviews after some email back and forth and/or a phone screen.

      And +1 to all the people who describe the dilemma of whether to dial up the Internet while waiting for an important phone call.

      Call waiting did exist, but I had it drilled into me that to use this feature ever was unforgivably rude. I never even learned how to use it.

      1. Cordelia Naismith*

        Yes. The few times someone bumped me for another conversation on call waiting, I was kind of insulted. Call waiting was rude!

      2. Persephone Mulberry*

        In 1997, when I was applying to college, I (meaning my mom) paid a typing service to type my application on the paper copy provided by the college. I did type (on a computer) and print my own essays, though. It may have been dot matrix.

    8. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      By 1995, faxing resumes was pretty common. We’d print an ad in the paper with our fax number and we’d receive most of our resumes that way.

      This was a big departure from previous years where people either mailed resumes or dropped them off.

      We had a dedicated fax machine and numbers for resumes, btw, and we weren’t a huge employer. An ad could generate 100 multi page faxes though, very close together.

      (What I remember is that people went up to a Kinkos to fax. I was never on the other end so I can’t say for sure.)

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        p.s.
        Receiving unsolicited resumes via mail was very common.
        I recently watched that Friends episode and said, “I remember that!” . The idea was to mail a resume to pretty much every business in X miles around you.

        This was expensive! You paid to get your resume set and printed, paid for matching envelopes and paid for stamps.

        I never did this myself because when I was job hunting I was way too poor to be able to afford that. But on the other side, it was common to receive them.

        1. super anon*

          was it less common then to tailor your resume to each place you were applying to? i assume if you were just mailing out resumes to everyone you wouldn’t really be able to… were there cover letters involved if you were doing it that way as well?

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            What I remember is, there was always a cover letter where you tried to say why you were interested in that company. (I was too poor to ever do this myself when looking so I only remember from the ones I would receive.) Since you couldn’t look a company up online, I believe that it was standard advice to go to the library and use reference books to get company names and addresses and a brief description of the company.

            I remember people calling the receptionist to get a name to address the letter to.

            In our world, mailed resumes did make it to someone who might do hiring, company of 50 people at that point. In larger companies, I am pretty sure they did some good as they would be routed to HR and “kept on file”.

          2. Judy*

            You didn’t tailor your resume because at least as a student, you took your floppy disk to Kinkos to print it out. Most of us had dot matrix printers, not printers that do “good pretty” fonts. Usually Kinkos had different rates by quantity, so you would get many copies of the resume printed out at once to lower your per sheet cost. I included a short cover letter that looked typewritten. (My parents had an electronic typewriter that would act as a printer that I could use over breaks.)

            For any design presentations, we’d also go over to Kinkos to do the printing out on “flimsies” to use on the overhead projector.

            1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

              Oh, I misread.

              There was no resume tailoring, yes. I was talking about cover letters.

              Dial back a few years and there was nothing to take to the print shop other than your handwritten or typewritten notes. The print shop typeset the resume for you. It was not cheap.

              I can’t remember what I did to get my first job. I had no money for food, how did I have a resume to hand out? I must have borrowed money from someone. Either that or I did a typewriter one myself but that was really Not Done.

      2. Judy*

        In 1991, when I was graduating from college, I mailed resumes to many companies who were listed on my university’s job site. I received many “Thank you for your interest, we’ll notify you if there are openings we wish to discuss with you” letters back. I had email through my university, but didn’t once I graduated for a few years. I believe my request for an interview was over the phone, although the job offer was by letter. I had interviews (entry level engineer) at maybe 6 places all across the country, and had 2 offers. (This was during a minor downturn in the economy, a few years earlier, engineers would have many, many offers.)

      3. Artemesia*

        In the 70s we had a very important document that had to get to some office in DC by 5 pm — a giant proposal for millions. We found an agency donor who had a poncy law firm and a FAX machine — We faxed that sucker from the lawyer’s office and all marveled about this incredible fancy technology. At the same time we were printing proposals on huge copy machines that made a sort of negative on a pink sheet before printing it then to white paper. The changes in communication technology during my career were amazing. From laboriously making overhead transparencies by hand to computer printing them to of course dispensing with them completely. And the that new fangled internet.

    9. danr*

      “Hell, while I’m asking questions, how did people even look for job openings before the internet and sites like indeed?”… You looked in the newspapers at the want ads. Or, you traveled to your college or graduate school placement office to look at the job board. If you were going for teaching jobs, you could go to the county board of education and look at their job boards.
      Until the internet/web age, most of the people at my old company found their jobs through the want ads in the local newspaper… which happened to be the NY Times.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Sunday paper was the big deal, that’s when the fresh ads broke.

        When you bought ads, it was by the word (or was it letter? maybe it was letter??), so the cheap ass employers abbreviated everything they could. Smaller employers would have modest ads but at least full words.

        You could buy just Sunday or you could be bold and buy an entire week. I think there was a Sun, Mon, Tues option also. The job ads were huge in the paper on Sunday, so many many pages, and dwindled rapidly as the week went on.

        There was no waiting on a job ad. You saw it on Sunday, you jumped right on it Monday morning. I don’t remember any “job closes x date”, although there probably were notices like that for large institutions like unis and hospitals.

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          I remember not too long ago (2001, 2002?) when I was in charge of placing ads and we had to decide whether we wanted Sunday paper only or if we wanted to pay extra for it to be online.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            Geeze. It’s probably been that long since I was the one actually placing job ads. That’s like the last process I remember doing.

            Geeze.

            I would like to lodge a complaint about how old this thread is making me feel.

        2. fposte*

          In my childhood the “Help Wanted” ads were divided into “Help Wanted–Men” and “Help Wanted–Women.” A lot of the latter were asking for a “Gal Friday.”

          2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            I as well. I don’t know why at 6 and 7 years old I was reading the want ads but I was a strange little child and I read them every day. I remember asking my mom about that and mom saying to me “Don’t you pay any attention to that. Women can do any jobs men can.”

    10. The IT Manager*

      I’m torn between thinking how quaint thing used to be a long time ago, and realizing that the Internet changed the world very quickly. By mid-2000s or earlier, everyone was assumed to have some sort of non-dial-up access to the (world wide web) Internet so people could submit resumes electronically. It quickly jumped from being a way you could apply to the only way you apply.

      OTOH I bet companies, probably didn’t bother with rejection letters any more than they bother with rejection emails now. I could be wrong, though.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I don’t remember ever typing a rejection letter and sticking it in an envelope. Or faxing one.

        I remember taking status phone calls and/or calling people interviewed to let them know they didn’t get the job.

      2. Merry and Bright*

        My friends and I used to get typewritten post-interview rejection letters, referenced and personalized. We shared our pain! I began life as a shorthand typist so know this took a little time.

        Now most companies are too busy to spend two minutes pinging an email.

        It was just thank you, but no thank you but professional.

        1. super anon*

          wait.. you mean someone would write each rejection letter individually on a typewriter?! why didn’t they just written one standard form and photocopy it, and then just use a typewriter to put a recipients name on the letter? that seems easier, although i’ve never used a typewriter so this is just wild speculation.

          (i assume photocopiers existed in the 1980s/90s because lots of old DOS games used copy protection schemes that were meant to thwart photocopiers)

          1. Merry and Bright*

            Good question. I think that was done sometimes for more informal stuff but it was pretty normal. There were a lot of specialist typist jobs around, mainly because there wasn’t the routine technology. When word processors became the thing they were quicker of course.

            Photocopiers were there in the 80s but the print quality was not like now and you could get smudges and ink leakage. The technician used to come in to clean the machine out! So they weren’t too reliable for external post.

          2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            Sending a photocopied letter was Not Done, very tacky. It’s quite possible that a large company might do that for a low paid job with a ton of applicants, can’t say it wasn’t actually done, but photocopying was for flyers, not correspondence.

            Let’s not forget word processors. By 1985?, word processors were abundant in professional offices. When I started as an admin assistant at my current company in 1987, one of the first things I did was set up a system to send sales letters for my reps in our word processor. You could even mail merge. Took seconds to customize letters that then came out typewritten on nice stationery waiting for signature. (I was seen as some kind of Sorceress, but it was easy. )

            Word processors weren’t with us long because the abundance of computers was around the computer but they were marvelous machines.

  114. wuzuyacr*

    I pay someone to clean my house every couple of weeks. The work is perfectly fine, but she has boundary issues and is a chatterbox which is a problem on days where I happen to be working from home. The biggest issue is how long she stays in my home. She and I have discussed how many hours it takes to clean the house and I pay her accordingly, but she often stays an hour or two longer for a variety of reasons. Sometimes she decides to tackle a cleaning project (thoroughly clean the baseboards) or she’s on lengthy calls or she takes an hour lunch in order to watch her soap.

    My husband and I are extremely quiet, introverted people and we like to have our house to ourselves. I’ve spoken to her a couple of times about leaving by a certain time, but the message doesn’t stick and a few weeks later, she’s back to coming late and leaving whenever she’s done.

    I feel like a jerk for thinking this, but I don’t want to be friends. I just want someone to efficiently clean the house and leave. Should I try to work on my attitude and appreciate that this person is so conscientious with regard to cleaning? Is it even reasonable to maintain a professional distance with someone who comes into your home to perform a service for many years?

    1. C Average*

      How long has she been working for you? Would it be possible or desirable to end the relationship and hire someone new?

      It sounds like you’ve let the job become a bit amorphous in terms of hours and duties, and it can be hard to fence that kind of thing back in once it’s gone free-range. It might be simpler to start fresh with someone who doesn’t have preconceived ideas about the job entails.

      Failing that, I think it might be worth your while to ask her to arrive 15 minutes early (at a specific time, not just a specific day) on her next scheduled day. Set the expectation that this extra time is so that the two of you can meet to discuss her work: you want to frame this very explicitly as a work-related meeting.

      Explain to her that you’d like the role you’ve hired her for to become more structured than it’s been: you need her work to be completed on x day between x time and x time, and that any projects additional to the standard cleaning tasks need to be approved by you before she takes them on. Also tell her that when you’re working from home you need to be focused and productive, and should only be disturbed for work-related questions (for example, proposals for additional projects, as referenced above.) Ask her to please limit phone calls to those that are strictly necessary and save TV-watching for her own time, as you need a quiet atmosphere to do your work.

      Wrap up by thanking her for the great work she always does.

      This talk should go a long way toward establishing that you’re not pals and you just want your house cleaned.

      1. wuzuyacr*

        C Average, thank you so much for your advice. You are quite correct, the best thing would be to end this relationship and find someone else. However, due to her chattiness, I have an uncomfortable insight into her financial situation and I know losing a client would be a huge hardship.

        I can have another discussion, but I guess I’d need to bring up the fact that she falls into her old patterns after a just a few weeks. I guess the only way to make the point stick is to spell out that I’ll need to find someone else if this happens again. I feel like a heel thinking about doing this. This is why I’ll never choose to be a manager.

        1. fposte*

          And ask a bartender friend how to cheerfully kick people out. I don’t know how they do it, but I might go with “Hey, Lucinda, remember how we said things need to be wrapped up by five? It’s five, so we’ll need to say goodbye now.”

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          If it keeps happening, you’re eventually going to fire her, so think of it as a kindness to tell her what she needs to do to keep the job.

          I’d say this: “Hey, I know we’ve talked about it before, but somehow it’s not getting stuck to. I’m really serious about it — I need you to finish up by 1:00. Because I’m working from home, it’s important for me to be able to plan my day and know when I’ll have a totally quiet house. Speaking of which, I really do need to focus while you’re here, so I’ve got to be vigilant about not chatting. I’m not going to be successful at my job if we don’t do things this way, so it’s really crucial.”

  115. katamia*

    I’m in the running for a job in Taiwan I would LOVE to have. I’m feeling pretty confident about getting it (not overconfident, but I have the skills and my communications with them have been positive so far), so I’m trying to stockpile resources for working and living there, but it’s hard to tell which resources have good advice and which are way off the mark. Anyone have any experience working in Taiwan or doing business with people from there? Anyone know any good blogs or books or articles or anything?

    1. super anon*

      tumblr has an incredibly large expat community who blog about their experiences living overseas. trying searching the #taiwan tag to see what people are posting and if there’s interesting blogs you should follow. i can’t give you specific recommendations b/c i follow the korean expat blogging community on tumblr, and the few taiwan blogs i did follow stopped posting b/c the writer left taiwan.

      do you speak mandarin? if you do ignore this next advice and pretend i never typed it. if you don’t, i highly recommend you learn some really basic stuff before you set out, basically numbers, how to order food/coffee/etc, how to ask how much something is, that kind of stuff. i lived in korea and i knew some korean before i went, and it made my life so much easier. i can’t imagine how hard it would’ve been if i couldn’t order food/coffee and understand prices.

      also keep in mind that taiwan is very different from the mainland. the business culture is different, lots of the words/pronunciation are different even though they both speak mandarin, etc. my boyfriend is taiwanese and he does a lot of work with people from the mainland and he finds it very different because of the culture differences.

      i’m not sure if taiwan has a drinking/work culture in the same way that korea/japan/china do, but you should probably look into the etiquette of drinking in taiwan just in case. in korea they do a thing called hweshik where you go out with your boss and your coworkers as a type of team building exercise. there’s a lot of rules surrounding drinking at these types of events, some of them carry over, such as it’s rude to fill your own glass, so you should always pour liquor for others, etc. however, i’ve found that as a foreigner you can get away with not really following the rules when you’re new and it’s not as big of a faux pas as if a taiwanese person had done it.

      i’m sorry i can’t be of more help, but i hope this was kind of/sort of/maybe helpful?

      1. katamia*

        Thanks, that was definitely helpful! I’ll definitely check out Tumblr to see what I can find on there.

        I can speak and read a tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny bit of Mandarin (simplified characters rather than traditional, though, although the person I learned it from was Taiwanese and apparently had a Taiwanese accent so I might too), but I actually just got a couple books out from the library today so I can make some progress.

        It didn’t occur to me that there might be some sort of drinking culture–I knew about it in Korea and Japan, but have never really seen any mention of it either being present or absent in Taiwan. That would be a huge change for me, so I’ll keep an eye out for it to see what I can find.

        1. super anon*

          a resource i really, really like for learning mandarin is yoyochinese. it’s a monthly subscription service, but they have a free trial so if you’re feeling especially cheap/thrifty you could just download all of the pdfs and stuff during the free trial. i find that yang yang is a great teacher and is really good at explaining grammar in an easy to understand why.

          if you’re looking to learn hanzi you’ll probably want to learn traditional characters. they use traditional rather than simplified in taiwan, which is one major difference from the mainland. i really like the integrated chinese series, and it’s available in a traditional character version, but it’s a university text rather than a fun language learning supplement like yoyochinese is. if you want a thorough grammar resource, Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar by Routledge is an amazing book, although it’s a bit pricey at ~$100 and doesn’t come in a traditional character version. oh, and yang yang chen, the creator of yoyochinese has a lot of great google hangouts that are available for free on youtube that will help you learn pinyin pronunciation and other really essential stuff.

          i’m sorry i don’t have more resources for you – i spent ages and ages learning korean so if you were looking for recommendations for korean i could give you approx 1 million resources and talk your ear off about korea/korean forever. but, i’m a newbie to mandarin and i’ve never been to taiwan so i can’t be as much help.

          oh, and another culture quirk i thought of. you’ll probably find a lot of people will ask you “have you eaten yet” as a greeting when they first see you (meet you?). they don’t really care if you’ve eaten, but it’s a polite thing that everyone will always ask. it’s kind of like our “how are you”, we generally don’t care how the person is, it’s just something we say. i was *so* confused by the have you eaten yet questions when i first went to korea that i like to tell other people about it so they’re not as bewildered/thinking everyone wants to take them to lunch like i was!

    2. thisisit*

      i don’t know anything about working there, but i lived in taiwan in 1998. i loved it! good luck.

      one thing i found is that people are really interested in your personal life. it might be different in the workplace, but with friends, neighbors, etc, i was constantly getting asked questions about my family, marriage, my salary, my rent, religion, etc, etc, that would be considered invasive in the US.

      1. katamia*

        Yeah, the common thread in what I’ve found so far is that pretty much everyone (expats, anyway) who’s lived or is living in Taiwan really seems to like it, which is a really good sign.

        The personal life element is interesting, especially since I come from a part of the US that is pretty aloof, so I’m not used to people asking me a lot of questions. Good to know in advance, though, so I can be prepared for it.

  116. Bethy*

    Academia folks: What’s the etiquette on inviting coworkers to your graduation at the institution where you all work? I earned my Master’s while working FT for this department, partially because they are a bunch of academics who were so supportive of me getting another degree. A couple people have mentioned they plan to attend the ceremony, which is so nice, but I don’t know how/if I should invite everyone. I don’t want anyone to feel pressured to attend; I’ll be pretty focused on my family/classmates, plus we have a work function that afternoon where we’ll all be gathered anyway. But I am proud of this and I know I wouldn’t have gone for it had I not been supporting an academic office. I didn’t get announcements printed or anything. Do I just send a blanket email with the details saying I’d love to see anyone who can make it, or mention it in a meeting, or just let it go and assume that everyone who wants to come will figure it out?

    1. Dasha*

      If you didn’t get announcements printed I’d say the email route and I like the “I’d love to see anyone who can make it” line.

    2. Paige Turner*

      To be honest, I don’t think your coworkers would be very interested in attending the graduation ceremony- nothing personal, but they are usually pretty dull ;) I think it would be nice, though, for you to write some thank you cards to people who provided you with professional/emotional/other support while you were in school, to acknowledge your graduation and their contribution. You could also bring in cupcakes or some kind of treat for the whole office, if that’s the sort of thing that would be well-received. Congratulations!

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Seconded! It’s lovely that some people are choosing to come, but I think a blanket email could make some people who are less enthused about such occasions feel an obligation to attend, even if that’s not what you intended. Maybe mention in a meeting that you won’t be in on X day because you’ll be at your graduation ceremony, and leave it at that.

        And congratulations!

  117. oops!*

    Today I got angry with a supervisee who wouldn’t accept direction. After I got back to my office I slammed my door, which I NEVER do. I need a weekend.

    1. StudentA*

      You sound remorseful. What do you think of owning up to the fact that you probably overreacted? Do you think maybe it was a miscommunication, not merely that she didn’t want to accept direction?

  118. Kali*

    A work attire question that may or may not have already been covered: I need to buy some nice looking flats for the summer. I photograph weddings on the weekends and they are all-day-on-your-feet affairs and really hard on me physically in general. At my day job, I wear (and love) heels.

    Anyone have any suggestions? Breathability, wedding attire appropriateness, and look-good-with-anything-ness is important!

    1. AnonToday*

      I love Aerosoles’ Mr. Softee. They come in different colors and patterns. They’re the first pair of shoes I’ve ever worn that did not have a “break-in” period.

    3. cuppa*

      I never thought I would say this, but here I am: Crocs.
      I found some Croc ballet flats that are super light and comfortable. I was a super hater of the Croc clogs, but these things are great. They had them in all different colors, and I’m betting black would look good with a lot. They also hold up really nice through mud and grass, etc. and are easy to clean!

      1. Sadsack*

        How are they in the heat of summer? I have a pair of clark’s privos, but they really make my feet hot!

        1. cuppa*

          That is a good point — the ones I have don’t have holes in them. I used them last year in the late late summer/very early fall, and I don’t remember any issues with my feet sweating, but YMMV and that would be something to consider.

        1. cuppa*

          Very true! I ordered them online and had to exchange them for a smaller size because they were too big.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        Crocs makes nice regular shoes. I have a pair of Mary Janes of theirs and they are SO comfy. They have the squishy stuff inside. And they look really nice (are leather).

    4. Natalie*

      I just finished looking for the exact same thing, for a trip to France (lots of walking but still want to look stylish and adult). I ordered a few and picked my favorite, but all of them were comfortable, cute, and real leather (I don’t pay for fake leather). They just didn’t happen to fit my feet as well as the ones I kept:

      Softspots (I tried the Posie but they have a few flat choices)
      Cobb Hill
      Timberland (this one surprised me)
      Naturalizer
      Rockport *

      * This is the one I kept. It’s their ballet flat, and it looks silly not on your feet but is really comfortable and stylish on.

      1. Artemesia*

        I have to have a well cushioned athletic sole or else I get plantar fascitis. I have found merrells work really well for me. I wear the mesh top clog most of the year and have winter boots and not bad looking summer sandals by them also — and all are immediately comfortable.

    5. thisisit*

      so just fyi, ballet slipper flats are almost as bad for your feet/legs as heels. go with something with a decent sole, some arch support and maybe even a little heel/platform. clarks are great.

      1. Kali*

        Yes, I’ve definitely heard this. Do you think that’s fixable with inserts? I’m not a spring chicken anymore and have to take better care of my body because I plan on being old and curmudgeonly, yet mobile.

  119. LiteralGirl*

    Asking for advice that I’m sure has been answered in previous open threads.
    How have you re-engaged at work? Over the past year, my division has had a huge reorganization and, due to cost cutting, I had to take on administrative support of our director while his admin was out on maternity leave. I am an analyst/programmer, not an admin. I have gotten over the resentment of the assignment(which is about to come to an end), but haven’t been able to get myself back to where I used to be before all of the disruption of the past 10 months. I am normally an enthusiastic, engaged employee who goes the extra mile and I don’t like who I have become at work.
    Does anyone have any nuggets I could put to use? Thanks!

    1. Stemmie*

      Is it a good time to take a vacation before transitioning back to your old role only? It might feel a lot better to come back fresh after resting.

      1. Natalie*

        Yes, that’s what I was going to suggest. Even if you can’t afford to go anywhere, you should take some days off and vacation in your town.

  120. Dr Floyd*

    What’s the best way to tell your company owner/boss that my part of the country where I work (sales) is vastly different from the home office territory, and the way he wants to do business here just won’t work (We started ops 3 months ago).
    I realize it’s *his* business and he can do what he wants, I’ve described the complaints to him but he won’t budge. And I do understand his reasoning… but it’s just not working here. I have 15 years industry experience and I think it’s a shame because we could really shake things up.

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      Can you suggest something like A/B testing? So say something like “boss, I know you want to sell using X process and I’ve been advocating for Y process. Is there a way we could try both and see which really works best? I know you have good reasons for X, and I’ve been pulling for Y because of A, B, and C. I would like to propose that we try both, using X for one set of customers and Y for a similar set. I’m willing to be completely focused on doing X as well as possible. Would you be willing to accept Y if it does turn out to be a better process in this situation?”

    2. Just me*

      We do regional marketing plans because things vary so much from state to state or region to region. The most effective way to convince reasonable people is data. A/B testing for sure, but any other imperical data will help a lot. A huge part of my job is digging to find regional competitive landscapes. There is a ton of difference from region to region, depending on your field.

  121. Kay*

    I applied for a position I was really excited about at a fairly small company (50 people). I didn’t get it, they went with an internal hire (IH). I was offered a more junior position in customer service, along with covering the bilingual aspect that their hire could not do.

    2 months in, our presentations are a week away and IH is not prepared, not confident and has repeatedly said she thinks someone else should do her presentation. Her boss said she could cover for one presentation, but IH would have to take it from there, and there’s another one for a different account the following day. She assured IH that she’d spoken to the account manager and the second presentation would be more laid back. IH said, “Yeah, but I’m sure he won’t do the presentation himself.” The manager said of course the account manager won’t, it’s your job. I’m not sure what happened next, but at some point yesterday IH met with the account manager for the second presentation and immediately afterwards, he sent an email saying she was no longer with the company.

    Without sounding too callous, I am extremely interested in the position. I’ve gotten to see exactly what it entails, and all of the work is right up my alley and is way more interesting than my current role. The managers were impressed with my presentation, my 60 day review was amazing, and I was pulled aside for a special meeting with HR to say that she had received feedback from very senior members of the company, including the president, to say that they were very impressed with me, she’s glad I’m making such a great headstart, they see me doing really well here and she wanted to know where I’d be interested in moving up in the future.

    It’s a company where people wear different hats and they don’t really rest on protocol, but I’m wondering how uncool it would be to ask my manager about applying for this job? I don’t want to give the impression that I’m flaky, but this was the job I wanted in the first place and I’ve shown how well I could do it.

    1. Amber Rose*

      You just said exactly why you should apply. You can do the job, you’ve shown interest in the job before and now you’ve proved yourself. Tell your boss these things.

      “You know I was initially interested in taking on the role of [position]. I am still really interested in it and I am hoping you will consider me for it now that it’s open again.”

      Don’t mention IH at all. Focus on why you want it and would be a good fit.

      From their perspective too, it’s easier to fill a junior position than one a step up.

      3. Kay*

        Thank you to everyone for the responses! I’ll talk to my manager on Monday and see what she says.

    3. Jill of All Trades*

      It’s not flaky – even though it’s the position you originally wanted, you took the more junior position seriously and rocked it, and they’re asking you where do you want to go due to the accolades they’ve been giving you. I don’t think it’s weird or flaky to at least say that you would be interested in that position and would your manager agree that it makes sense for you to apply given all you’ve brought to them so far.

    4. thisisit*

      do you think the position will get posted? because you could mention to your manager that if it does, you’d like to be considered for it.

      otherwise, you could also suggest that since there is a bit of a gap there now, you’d be interested in taking on some of the responsibilities for a bit to see how they fit. you’re ready for more advanced work, etc, etc.

      then in a few months you could revisit title/salary/etc since you are doing the work of the role already.

      this won’t work in places that are really rigid about positions and how people move into them, though. but in some places, it’s easier all around to have someone move into a role and then adjust the official stuff later. there isn’t so much a need for putting up a job post/triggering hiring actions, etc, which can be advantageous for the company.

  122. LUCYVP*

    There has been quite a bit of discussion lately about maternity leave.

    I’ve seen maternity leaves work very smoothly and also seen them work horribly.

    I’m interested in any hints, tips, suggestions how how to make extended leaves work well – especially within small organizations without much overlap in staff duties.

  123. Kate*

    Okay, kind of a weird one here…my SO was set to start a new job Monday morning. Usual schedule would be to show up around 6am but because it was the first day it was later. She really thought it was supposed to be 8:30 but when she got there the office manager said “We’re off to a bad start already. You were supposed to be here at 8am. We’re not moving forward with this.” And walked her out the door.

    Now, this is not a fast food or retail job we’re talking about. It’s a professional job that requires a masters degree. I’m not going to deny that this was a royally boneheaded move on SO’s part. But she was absolutely horrified, apologetic, and made an honest mistake. She didn’t breeze in there and blow it off, she definitely expressed remorse for the mix-up.

    So I’m wondering what everyone here thinks: is this normal for the office manager to just walk her out like that, or does it seem a bit abrupt? I feel like it was way overblown but SO is feeling pretty terrible and guilty so I thought I would seek some opinions.

    If it helps at all, there were a couple of other possible red-flags that we weren’t sure about, but SO has been under-employed for a while now and was just really happy to have full time work.

    1. Jill of All Trades*

      That sucks – I can’t believe an office manager would go to all the trouble of hiring someone only to let them go the first day because there was a mix-up in the arrival time. The office manager sounds very short-sighted to me and your SO dodged a bullet, though I understand the pain of being under/unemployed and even a crappy job is better than no job.

      Was the office manager your SO’s direct manager/hiring manager?

      1. Kate*

        Yes, it was the same person who did the hiring process. The most insulting thing (one of the possible red-flags) was that when she was called back for a second interview she showed up right on time and was asked to sign a background check paper. The office manager then said “Sorry, the receptionist called in today so I’m doing her job and don’t have time to introduce you to the big boss”. SO left, and then was called 3 hours later with the offer!

    2. StudentA*

      I think it was overblown. Most of us can usually tell fake remorse from real remorse.

      Just like she saw red flags, they may have also seen red flags in the interview process, but just really needed someone quick. I took a job once that I should not have taken. But I was so desperate to leave my current position, I may not have seen red flags. When I took the job, it seemed like they’d overreact about things, as well as constantly give me mixed messages. I realized, looking back, that they probably had reservations about me, but they desperately needed someone in asap.

      In your SO’s case, they may have been genuinely horrified that she was 30 minutes late. I can really only picture such a reaction if timeliness is a serious issue that may cost the company. I’m talking like nursing or management consulting (meetings with clients, etc.).

      1. Kate*

        That’s an interesting point about them having reservations as well. It’s entirely possible that there were, but nothing was brought up in the hiring process, so I’m not sure. Some of the “red-flag” info we received from a friend who was a former worker there indicated that big boss is pretty sexist and has been known to make homophobic comments, so it’s possible office manager thought hiring an obviously out lesbian wouldn’t be a big deal and then big boss made it one? I hate to jump to bigotry conclusions when there isn’t much info to go on, but it’s a possibility here.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That’s really strange. Did the office manager hire your SO? If not, has she reached out directly to the hiring manager?

      1. Kate*

        THANK YOU! This is the reaction I had as well, and I really appreciate hearing that other people agree! I wanted to make sure I wasn’t going too easy on SO just cause I kind of like her. :)

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      That sounds pretty horrible — assuming your SO was contrite about being late. I also think that, unless the office manager was to be their direct supervisor, they should contact the hiring manager or HR immediately to apologize, and to just kind of make an under-the-radar check that the office manager has the power to do this, and that HR/HM know that OM did this.

      1. Kate*

        Unfortunately the office manager was the hiring manager, with only one big boss above. Who, incidentally, office manager had an affair with a couple of years ago resulting in two children. They’re still together now though I guess, so…good for them? Needless to say, I don’t think there’s any recourse for her there. And at this point, I’m pretty sure she doesn’t want to work there now anyway!

  124. So Very Anonymous*

    A quick vent — trying to get up the moxie/spunk/appropriate-old-timey-word to email head of search committee to get a sense of where they are in their process. I did a phone interview almost six weeks ago and their time frame was very vague. It’s a university job so long waits are not uncommon, but I have reached the “could you please just reject me” point because I have a bunch of travel and other plans I need to start making (note: actual email would not include that statement!). Usually I can manage the “act as if you didn’t get the job and move on” thing, but in this case, expensive nonrefundable plane fares are involved. :(

  125. Stemmie*

    I want to hear from people who overcame a job interview obstacle – got nervous, revealed something unflattering about their work that they didn’t mean to, etc. – and still got an offer.

    What do you think you did wrong?
    How did you turn it around and recover?
    Do you have an idea of why you got a offer anyway?

      1. Stemmie*

        Haha…hope I can give someone worthy the f-bomb pass someday!

        I guess appropriateness depends a lot on context, too. A friend’s former colleague likes to tell the story of asking a poorly phrased technical question at an interview, which she met with “Listen: I don’t know what the f- you’re talking about. I know this stuff, but what you’re saying doesn’t make any f-ing sense.” She’d already aced a lot of technical questions at that point, and he later said the candor and the casual swearing made her seem all the more like she’d fit in and be easy to get along with – they turned out to be right. (This was at an engineering firm. YMMV.)

    2. nof*

      I once drew a total blank to a relatively easy question – tell me about a time when you’ve streamlined a process… Drr, my ability tl and tell record of doing exactly that was what I was selling my whole candidacy on. I even said something to that effect, like “I’m kind of drawing a blank for some reason but that’s really been a big part of all my recent roles…”

      Fortunately, I had been speaking to that question the entire interview, so when though I flubbed the soft ball pitch of it, I got the offer, and at a hire salary than posted. (I turned it down for other rewind but I think it would have been a great group to work with).

      Just goes to show a single question doesn’t necessarily make or break an interview.

    3. Lee*

      I kinda did this in my last interview (which I was successful in!), I mentioned stakeholders and project funding and I said ‘well it wasn’t my money, thankfully’, which kinda made it sound like I didn’t care about the money and wouldn’t have liked to be a stakeholder on the project I was leading. Massive clanger in my head, but I think adrenaline just kicked in, I told myself to forget about it and do the rest of the interview and move on as the best way of recovery. Don’t know how it went down, but I think not addressing it was the best way to go in that situation as it was kinda open to interpretation as to what I meant (what I actually meant was that it was a lot of money and I don’t have a lot of money!). I think they probably put it down to nerves.

  126. AmeriCorp for Older Folk?*

    My spouse is working across the country and I will be joining him late summer. This will mean resigning from my job unless I can get them to agree to a remote work arrangement. I’m kind of unsure still what I want to do with myself. I would definitely need some sort of income but not much more than what my spouse already earns. I’m interested in AmeriCorp positions because I want to do something meaningful with my life/career but am in my mid-30s. Any older AmeriCorp folks willing to share their experiences?

  127. Just me*

    Hey everyone,

    I work on a small team that does some project work and some proposal work (proposals turn into projects that keep us running; no proposals no work.)

    In the year and a half that I’ve been with the company, the projects my team handles have doubled, and we’re sending out more proposals than ever as well. Those of us in the support roles (4 of us) are all running at full speed, working overtime, and mostly barely keeping our heads above water. I’ve spoken with my supervisor about how busy we all are, and that most of us really can’t handle any additional work. While every now and then she discusses hiring another person, because we never know which proposals will turn into projects it can be hard to really justify hiring more staff.

    In every other case she’s a great manager; incredibly supportive, wants to give support staff a chance to learn new skills and grow, flexible where she can be, willing to give us projects that fit our interests, etc. But she just seems unwilling to believe we can’t take anymore work.

    All of us have told her at one point or another we’re swamped, and I try to speak up for others in this regard (I’m more involved in the operations side than the others), but nothing has changed. Any advice on specific language I could use?

    Thanks!

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      Perhaps a contractor arrangement would work – when a proposal turns into a project, you bring on a fixed-term person to pick up the slack, on the understanding that the contract ends when the project wraps? Then if there’s still a need, you can invite the contractor to extend into the next project.

  128. Not me today*

    (Anonymous for today)
    I run my own graphic design business. I am reviewing the agreement I have with my clients.

    The only possible problem clause is on my rush policy. My standard has been to get approval on rush charges ahead of time. However, it is often difficult or impossible to get approval on a rush charge and still have time to get the actual work done. For example, project comes in late afternoon due the following day. I can do it if I work on it at night, but won’t get it done if I wait until the following day to get approval for the rush fee. And I don’t want to change plans and work at night unless I can be compensated with the rush charge.

    So I added a clause that projects due the same day or the next day will automatically be charged a rush fee. (But I can waive it if I want to for some reason.) It sounds pretty reasonable to me, but I’m just a little worried that clients will push back.

    If you run your own similar business, how do you handle rush charges? If you hire writers or designers, do they have a rush policy? How do you feel about that?

      1. Not me today*

        It comes up fairly often, especially with some clients. Probably 10% – 50% 0f projects (on the high end when preparing for trade shows and so on, which is especially silly to me since the client’s know about trade shows and such well in advance. But I digress.).

        Sometimes when I mention rush fee there is suddenly more time for the project. Often there is not. I can only think of one instance in several years where I said, “Rush fee,” and they said, “Ok, we’ll get someone else to do it.”

        Occasionally my clients are proactive and send emails like, “Can I have this tomorrow? I will pay a rush fee.” I especially love those clients.

        I should also mention that I don’t particularly mind doing fast turnarounds but they can be problematic when I have other work (or play) scheduled.

        The tight timelines tend to mean that these projects are small (or there wouldn’t be time to get them done in a day).

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      This is certainly an issue we have.

      It’s rare that we can get people to pay charges that they weren’t expecting/didn’t agree to ahead of time, even if their last minute request/deadline date given is clearly outside of stated turnaround time. Probably 75% of the time the extra fees for Y date are required to be approved, the customer moves the deadline date to something that doesn’t require extra fees.

      Your business and customer relationships may be different. Is it possible to make a simple rush fee schedule that a customer agrees to before you take them on as a client? Not just in the contract but a well laid out *clear* extra piece of paper that they sign?

      1. Not me today*

        I’m not too concerned about the charges being paid if the rush charge clause is in the contract. My smaller clients will be fine with it (and usually call about projects so I can remind them), and the contract signer will usually be my contact at the company. (These clients sign MY contract which is fairly short and human-readable.)

        I’m most concerned about push back from my big corporate clients during the contract stage. One in particular has me sign THEIR contract. So I am asking them to add the rush charge clause to their contract with me starting this year. The contract will be reviewed by their legal department* and signed by one of their top executives. (I don’t often work directly with the top exec; most of my contacts are with mid or low-level staff.) If it gets into the contract, there shouldn’t be a problem being paid; I’m just trying to think ahead in case they refuse to add the clause to the contract.

        *The full contract including the stuff I want to add has been reviewed by my lawyer.

        1. Helena*

          If they decline to add this to their contract, ask them how they want to proceed. Point out that without prior authorisation, you won’t start work on their project until there is approval for the rush fee, which will delay the work. How do they want to handle that? Maybe they can provide a solution (someone who can be contacted at any time to approve, the person contacting you to ask for the work being required to approve it at that time, etc), or maybe they’ll agree to the clause. It’s completely reasonable to ask.

    3. Not me today*

      Thanks folks, I feel better that someone else thinks a rush charge like this is “a totally reasonable requirement.”

  129. Jill 2*

    This is kind of a random question, but I’m curious for people’s thoughts:

    When you are asked to envision long-term plans for your organization, how do you approach this? What are some strategies to assess your current picture, and how do you expand to 1/5/10 years down the road?

    I get so in the weeds in the work I do, it’s really hard for me to pull up and think at a high-level. I’ve never had to do it. I find it very hard to think farther than 2-3 months down the pike. So many of my colleagues in my career have been creative and innovative in terms of coming up with ideas about how the future will take shape. I inevitably draw a blank.

    Here’s quick example. I used to work at a performing arts venue about a few years ago, right around the time the iPhone had been released. We were discussing mobiles apps and our digital approach. While I was just at the level of thinking about the iPhone, our Marketing Director was thinking waaaaaay ahead — of mobile adoption overall, of how Android would be even bigger, and how we had to prepare for that. It all came to pass as she said, and her strategic thinking allowed us to set up the systems we needed to get there.

    How do I get myself to think this way? Is it just experience?

    I will be attending a heavy-hitting session in two weeks with a lot of executives that all think big picture. As a lowly worker bee, I have no idea how I can participate when I can only see as far as my nose. But I want to contribute and shape the conversation too.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Graciosa*

      I’m a little torn on this one.

      Some people just think this way, and others have other talents. I’m a little afraid I’m trying to advise you how to start writing with your non-dominant hand, which begs the question of how necessary it really is and whether you can contribute more without trying to make this change.

      Here are some thought starters:

      If you were going to design a perfect [system / product / process / organization] from scratch, what would it look like?

      What are the problems [you / your customers] are facing that you haven’t solved yet?

      What do you really admire in another industry that your industry has yet to adopt?

      The second example may be easier for you to work with. If you’re very much in the weeds, you have a wealth of experience with the pain points you and your customers are facing. Maybe in the next couple weeks, you can start keeping a list of every problem or frustration you encounter on the job and look for patterns? I normally don’t advise this because focusing solely on negatives is not a good way to go through the day, but it’s for a limited time and may allow you to contribute unique value to the discussion.

      Remember that asking the right questions is just as important as working on the answers.

      1. Jill 2*

        This is really helpful, thank you. I think my problem is I don’t know how to come up with the questions. I tend to be on the solutions side with the problem at hand. And we go so fast, we don’t always have time to reflect.

        The other thing is, being on the marketing side, I’m actually usually one step removed from the customers themselves. The product I sell is so niche and away from my personal experience, it’s been hard to connect to.

        Your strategies are great, though; I think they’ll give me a head start on the current situation at hand. Thank you!

  130. Anonniemouse*

    There’s been so much drama in the office lately and someone just went behind my back yesterday and I’m really upset about it. This is just another indicator in a long line of many that I need to leave.

    Anyway, since I can’t ask, “How dysfunctional is your office environment?” in my next interview, what are some good ways to phrase that to get at the same question?

      2. Afiendishthingy*

        I recently referred a friend to that post- she is also preparing to leave a very toxic culture and is traumatized and worried she’s going to end up in a place just as screwed up. If you search the AAM archive you can find the post here that links to the US News article so you can read the comments here.

    2. Jill of All Trades*

      “Can you tell me about a time when there was a conflict between co-workers? What happened and how was it handled? What would you do differently in a similar situation?”

      It might help?

  131. Anonymousforthisone*

    I have a sticky situation. I reported a colleague of mine to our Ombudsman because of something my colleague said that was inappropriate, and therefore needed to be reported. I was the only one who witnessed this statement. We do not work in the same building, or even the same state. Today, I received an electronic note from my colleague saying only, “I just got a call from legal.”

    I was busy and didn’t want to deal with it, so I didn’t respond. (Besides, I reasoned, it wasn’t a question, it was just a statement.)

    What is the best way to address this with my colleague? I plan to call on Monday (if I have the nerve), but how do I explain to this person that I had no choice and that if I hadn’t reported this statement, the company could have been in a lot of trouble?

    I am not good with confrontation. Wording advice, anyone?

      1. Graciosa*

        I completely agree with this – that email does not require a response.

        My comments below were assuming there would be conversation about this at some point, but the advice still stands. Your ombudsman or the company legal representative would be a much better source of guidance.

        1. Afiendishthingy*

          Thirded. I wouldn’t call the coworker, especially since legal is now involved. If pressed, like you run into the person in the hallway and they hound you about it, I would say you didn’t have a choice but to report it, and you don’t think it’s appropriate to discuss further- or even leave out the part about not having a choice to report it and just saying that if legal is involved it’s not appropriate to discuss it amongst yourselves. But as it is the person hasn’t even asked for an explanation.
          A few years back a couple coworkers and I witnessed a 4th coworker behave very unethically/inappropriately and we had to report it, the coworker texted me asking what I knew and I said I didn’t think I should talk about it, then ignored the subsequent text. Don’t engage.

    2. Graciosa*

      It’s a little hard to answer without more particulars than you probably want to give in a public forum.

      My advice would be to ask the ombudsman or representative of the legal team for suggestions. They will know the specifics of the situation, and probably be in a better position to help you with wording.

      Also, if there are rules applicable to these discussions (for example, legal may not want your colleague to discuss this with you at all) they will be in the best position to advise you.

      If you’re not able to reach one of those people – and in the absence of any other information – I would suggest you handle it exactly as you did in your message. You had no choice, and if you hadn’t reported it the company would have been in a lot of trouble.

      1. Anonymousforthisone*

        Thank you, everyone, for your help. I will eventually have to work with this colleague again (we are on a project together and I do not see that changing), so if it is brought up, I will use the wording you shared with me. If it continues to be brought up, I will involve legal and go from there. Thanks so much. I am so not looking forward to this…

  132. Azumi*

    I just got a (real, professional) job! This online community has taught me so much.

    Now….does anyone have advice about the important first things to do/learn in this job? I’m working for a mid-sized to small nonprofit, as an exec. assistant with development duties.

    1. GOG11*

      Congratulations!!!

      I can’t speak to specific processes or skills you’ll need to pick up in your role, but I can share some resources I’ve found. I recently discovered musings of a high level executive assistant. I’ve found some really good practical resources (i.e., here’re 7 strategies for reserving a table at an always-booked restaurant) on there. I’ve also Googled variations on “tips for administrative assistants” and found a site called Administrative Sparkle (pretty decent, though I don’t like it as much as “musings…”), some templates from Kick Ass Admin (site is no longer live, but I’ve gotten format ideas from the stuff still on pinterest), and slide shows from Slideshare. Throwing around various search terms on Google can go a long way sometimes once you have a specific problem or process in mind.

    2. Afiendishthingy*

      I’m not trying to be snarky, but your manager should! It’s really hard to know without knowing anything else about your specific position, although maybe the EAs around here can weigh in.

  133. GOG11*

    I know this is sort of late in the day, but last week one of my employees (student worker in college) lost her mother unexpectedly.

    Does anyone have any advice on what I can do to support her? I am putting out baked goods and sending an email to our small Dept. letting my colleagues (all senior to her) know that they can leave a donation with me to cover her time out of the office (no paid time off) if they would like to. I’ve also left a card out for everyone to sign.

    Additionally, I normally do a review at the end of each semester, but I’m not sure how to handle this semester’s review. I would have scheduled/planned for her review to take place in two weeks, but the semester is ending soon and she will have other tasks to work on upon her return mid-next week (between break and leave, she’ll have been out about 2 weeks with about 3 weeks to go in the semester). I’m reluctant to try to squeeze in yet another thing, especially at a time when she’s probably not in the best state of mind to receive feedback. I also usually use it as a collaborative planning session (what do we want to improve for next year/the fall? what projects do we want to tackle) and I’m thinking that would be hard to do for her right now.

    I give pretty regular feedback and she has been with us for 2 years now and plans to return in the fall. Should I just skip the feedback and plan for a strategy session when she returns in the fall? Proceed as usual?

    Thanks so much in advance for any insight/advice/suggestions anybody can give.

    1. GOG11*

      I wanted to add a bit about colleagues covering time off: I know in many workplaces, this wouldn’t be kosher, but several colleagues have inquired about this unprompted and I have run it past the Boss. Additionally, the Prof to Student relationship dynamic is different from a normal Coworker to Junior Coworker one, I think. For these reasons, it’s not as weird as it may sound/seem to have “colleagues” covering something that really isn’t their responsibility.

    2. Dynamic Beige*

      You could just ask her when she’s been back for a few days if she would like her review now, or when she returns in the fall. Prepare as you normally would and if she says she’s OK with it, set it for as late as you can to give her some breathing room. If she’s not, you could still ask her if she has thoughts for projects to tackle in the fall that she could e-mail them to you, she might have already had a list she started somewhere. If you like her performance enough that she’s coming back in the fall, there’s no real urgency to review her now. As she processes her loss, it might be all she can do to wrap everything up anyway.

  134. Anon Intern Dilemma*

    I’m recruiting summer interns for my company. I get resumes from HR, read them over, and phone interview the people that I think I can use.

    My company has two sites: Alpha and Beta. I’m interviewing candidates to work at site Alpha. Site Beta is about 1500 miles away from site Alpha.

    I interviewed a candidate who would be perfect for my project at site Alpha. After the interview, I noticed that this candidate lives/goes to school about 100 miles from site Beta. He could possibly get a summer intern job at site Beta. But this is not a sure thing. And if he opts for site Beta, and doesn’t get a job there, it will be too late to hire him for site Alpha.

    Given candidate’s interests, he could make some good contacts at site Alpha that he could not make a site Beta. Additionally, the job at site Alpha is probably a better fit and opportunity for the candidate.

    If it makes any difference, candidate is somewhat older than average, having worked in industry for several years before coming to grad school.

    I’m investigating whether or not candidate can get any money from my company to help with relocation. I don’t know if it is possible or not.

    As a manager, I should probably just take it as it is and accept that this fellow is is willing to work for me at site Alpha.

    But as a human being, I know that moving 1500 miles, twice, is a lot of effort for a 3 month job.

    Should I call the candidate and level with him, and risk losing him?

    I’ve been going back and forth on this. I’d very much like to hear people’s thoughts.

    1. Afiendishthingy*

      I think you should tell him everything you’ve said here. He knows he would need to move 1500 miles for site Alpha. He’s probably applying with other companies too, so it’s not like there’s no risk of losing him if you don’t call him. I think hearing that he’s a very strong candidate and spelling out the pros and cons of the two sites may sell him on site Alpha, especially if it turns out you can help with relocation. It also just seems like a decent thing to do for a good candidate.

    2. Haven't thought of a name yet...*

      > As a manager, I should probably just take it as it is and accept that this fellow is is willing to work for me at site Alpha.

      As a recent college grad, I purposely avoided nearby internships. I don’t think it’s your place to make assumptions about where the applicant wants to live. Please don’t minimize his chances at Alpha due to your own assumptions, especially if he hasn’t indicated he’d prefer Beta. That would be awful.

      Moving 1500 miles isn’t that hard when it’s temporary — you often get a sublet apartment and only need to bring clothes.

      1. Anon Intern Dilemma*

        Thanks, both of you.

        > Please don’t minimize his chances at Alpha due to your own assumptions

        I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that, but – I’m the hiring manager at Alpha. I actively want to hire this candidate. But should I lay out this larger picture to him? I’m leaning towards “no”.

        1. Mephyle*

          Let me try to explain what “Haven’t thought of a name yet” meant: you could be reducing his chances to get the position at your company by your assumption that he would prefer Beta. We concluded that you are making this assumption based on your statement And if he opts for site Beta, and doesn’t get a job there, it will be too late to hire him for site Alpha.
          What if he is planning to leave Beta anyway? What if he is eager to move to Alpha no matter what company he works for? If you don’t lay out the larger picture, you will not learn this about him, in the event that it is true.

  135. Dynamic Beige*

    Need advice on how to word something.

    I am an independent contractor… let’s say I do teapot painting. I work for various companies that have teapots that need painting on a pure project-by-project basis. There are other people who also do this and I’m not 100% certain how the jobs are awarded, it could be on hourly rate. They tell me what kind of scene they want painted on the teapot and I do it. However, in the years I’ve been doing this, I have accumulated a lot of technical knowledge about the various processes involved, the vast majority of that has been through teaching myself or figuring it out on my own. It’s happened a few times in the past year that these companies have hired me to do a job and then I’ve found out once I am on the job that while I would be painting the body of the teapot, they have an intern who would be painting the lid. Problem is, company then wants me to teach their intern how to paint the lid properly. Company also doesn’t have any in-house painters, or presumably training would fall to that person.

    Compounding this problem is that the direction sometimes isn’t coming from someone else at the company who is employed there full-time, but another contractor, one who might be involved in something else, like measuring the sizes or quantities of the teapots to ensure they are within the project specifications — someone whose income would not be affected. No one is asking me ahead of time if I am OK with providing training and I have never offered or suggested I am willing to do it. No one is suggesting that I should be charging more because I am also doing training, they seem to see it as just a part of my job. If this were my intern, I would have no problem training them — it would be my responsibility to do so — but as they are not, I am not OK with it. These people don’t seem to get that by asking me to do this, I am depriving myself (potentially, it will take these interns many years to ramp up) of income and they don’t see the dynamic (that I can tell) is skewed.

    I don’t know how to tell these clients that this is not a reasonable ask without alienating myself or being labelled with the dreaded “not a team player” — they don’t seem to get that I’m on a team, and that team is mine. I have always striven to be helpful and answer all the technical aspects or provide different solutions to the problems — but I have a feeling that that is hamstringing me now because I’ve always been so helpful! Why wouldn’t I want to help out in this way?! I haven’t minded explaining things to people I know could never paint a teapot to save their souls, there is no potential to impact my ability to earn by doing that. But that seems to have translated into the assumption that I’ll gladly share my knowledge with anyone. *sigh* So, in part, I’ve done it to myself. However, I need a polite, diplomatic way of saying “that’s not cool” and I can’t figure it out. Anyone got a sentence or phrase they can spare? Or perhaps a similar experience and how you handled it?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      This happened at multiple companies? Seriously? That’s so rude.

      IDK, let me think about this. (Going out for dinner for my birthday shortly! :) ) I’ll wind back around at some point with my two cents. Sooner if something occurs to me shortly.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          49 again. Keeps happening to me, year after year, weirdest thing.

          I’m going to have to think about Dynamic Beige’s issue over a steak and a glass of wine.

          I am serious though. That’s so rude. There has to be a way to finesse this.

          1. fposte*

            I don’t believe it! You don’t look a day over 48 and half.

            Have an excellent birthday.

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        Happy Birthday!

        Yes, this has happened more than once from different companies. Unfortunately, I have known the principles for 15+ years, so there’s a lot of history there. It is kind of a problem in our industry that there aren’t any traditional studios any more and no young people coming up in the ranks… but that’s not my problem to solve at someone else’s company when I’m not a full or part-time employee there. Now, at my own company…

    2. Nanc*

      I think it’s fine to tell the company that your quote for this project does not include training, but you’ll be happy to revise the quote to include that cost. If you break it out by line item so the cost of the training and them providing the materials (or if you provide, the charge for the materials) they’ll be able to decide if they want that service or just pay you to paint the whole teapot.

      I don’t know if it’s the case of they want to get something for nothing or if they really haven’t thought it through–kind of like when someone hires a window cleaner and doesn’t understand why they won’t clean the bathroom–not part of the job quoted.

      1. LUCYVP*

        Yes, This.
        If the person asking your to provide training is not the person who you set your contract with, you need to loop in the person who hired you and let them know you have received this request which is not part of your contact.

        In most cases training will take more of your time than just completing your portion of the project and it is not unreasonable at all for you to adjust your quote to reflect that.

        1. Graciosa*

          You may also want to identify that up front in your original quote and any related agreements. Waiting until after you’re on the job to clarify what is and is not included is not the best practice.

          Another option would be to specify that training is available at an additional charge (it may sound friendly than saying only that it is not included, but still makes that clear).

    3. thisisit*

      there should be a statement of work and a timeline in your contract, no? if the training isn’t in the SOW, then it’s outside the scope. so no, you can’t do it, but happy to discuss an addendum and new quote for the additional task.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Ugh… there are no contracts, everything is done on a verbal basis or through e-mail. Like I said up thread, I’ve known these people for a long time, so it’s not like they’re strangers who are out to rip me off. They are also one of my biggest clients. Often the work is done quite last minute too, and there isn’t any time to get 50% up front, or get signed contracts or P.O.s — some companies don’t run on those kind of systems. It’s simply not how we work most of the time. I would have to ask around, but I’m pretty sure that the 50% up front thing just isn’t done. Most places have a payment cycle that you could submit for 50% up front, but you won’t see it for 60 days. Also, sometimes a project is offered and then cancelled just as fast.

        When I had first been approached for the job a few weeks ago by someone who has since moved on to another job, I was told the component parts. I was then told what the budget was for each part (these aren’t always negotiable but are often strict “this is what we’ve got for this”). Of course it goes without saying that if I can do it for less than the budgeted amount, happier client. One of those parts I was told was going to be worked on by an employee to save money — OK, fine enough, it was a pretty rote piece and not particularly interesting anyway. This employee had done similar things in the past, not spectacularly but had a general working knowledge of how to do it. If Client was OK with that, then who am I to say differently?

        What happened earlier this week that set me off was I received an e-mail from the new handler that asked how to do something for the piece because they had this intern and this person was now going to do the work — with the intern CC’d on their personal e-mail (I do not know if this a college work placement internship or a paid internship or a favour-for-a-friend/client internship). So aside from not being asked first if this was OK, the person I was expected to help was aware of the request. I sent them back a link and some vague “you’ll have to try a few things based on this link to see what works best” which is the only thing I could do in the situation as I wasn’t in the office (and have no desire to be). The next day I get a “take a look at what Intern has done and provide them feedback” Uh, no. Not my monkeys, not my circus. I’ve never even laid eyes on this person, I have no idea where they’ve studied, what their qualifications are, nothing.

        This is the third time in a little over a year that something like this has happened and I’m afraid it’s the thin edge of the wedge. Every company that I do work for is run by non-artists and they have no in-house art department, it’s all farmed out. Whether this is a sign that these companies are trying to move back to in-house and save money, I don’t know. So far, it seems to be all new college-ish grads, not more senior people that would be required to set up these departments properly, so training someone who knows nothing is going to be an on-going challenge in a company where there are no trainers.

        1. nof*

          How would you react if they sent you and email saying, do this rote piece instead of intern doing it? Call and give a verbal quote? Email a quote? Do it and invoice after the fact? Do that.

          I don’t do this type of work so I don’t know the exact specific action to take, but I do know on a conceptual level they are assigning you work outside of the agreed scope, so I would treat it exactly like any other “extra” work (even if you don’t have a formal SOW you have a mutual understanding.)

          Also, in the future, if they tell you ahead of time that they are assigning rote piece to intern, I would ask if they want you to budget in time to review and coach intern’s work.

          Don’t worry about intern being cc’d on requests. Just drop them if you want to email handler privately or call handler :)

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            Well, it’s more the knowledge that this Intern, whoever they are, is out there waiting for a response. And that’s a kind of “politeness pressure” I just don’t want to deal with. I did not respond to the e-mail and gave a few statements in a conference call that happened later.

            If they changed their minds and decided I should do it, the project would be more of damage control at this point “We’ve looked at what Peebles did, and we can’t give this to our client, it is not up to the standard of work that they expect/we should deliver. Can you fix it?” And then there would be the “We’ve looked at the budget and there is only X hours in there, can you do it in that time?” At which point a resounding “no” and the bang as they fall on their ass would be satisfying in my mind… but wouldn’t lead to being considered for more jobs in the future.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Would you want to do the training if you were paid separately for it? Or do you not want to do it at all?

          If the former, I think you just say, “Our contract doesn’t include training, but I can give you a separate quote for that if it’s something you want me to do.”

          If the latter, I’d say, “Oh, I actually specifically don’t train other people. It’s just not one of the services I offer.” If pressed about why, you can say that you dislike training, or you’d need to charge far more for it than anyone would want to pay.

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            At OldJob I was once tasked with training a half dozen new employees (I did not have any participation in the hiring of these people). There were issues that happened where certain coworkers thought that either this was a plum assignment or [insert reason here] and interfered. I was under BadManager at the time and this person never backed me up, just said “OK” to what coworkers proposed without running it by me first (gee, maybe this is a bigger pattern than I thought it was :/). Coworkers also didn’t want to share what they were going to do when I requested information and I had to sit in on their session (I missed one of them) in order to make sure it didn’t go off the rails as I knew we were dealing with people from diverse backgrounds who did not all have a baseline skill set. Consequently, while I thought I had done a good job, I was not given any feedback from BadManager that I had and so I am uncertain whether or not I have true aptitude for this kind of thing. I had been given feedback from other people at the company that I had “put my stamp on them” (whatever that meant) and no one ever complained directly that I heard of. I have been told that I’m good at explaining things by many people so maybe that’s kind of the same thing as training.

            On the flip side of that, I have considered branching out/trying to find things to do to earn money during lean times — and one of those is developing a workshop type course that would teach business people to do some of the rote things that I do because it bugs me they don’t understand it, it causes them to make decisions I don’t agree with aesthetically and I wouldn’t care if other people knew how to do it. But this is more of a skills idea than a “how to design” thing.

            Because as Wakeen’s Teapots so rightly points out, the kind of training that needs to be done to be done correctly with an intern is done in person, they need to see how to do it which is quicker than writing it out to explain it. It takes a lot of time and this client of mine doesn’t have the money — the salary I would request to go back to a three hour round-trip commute would require being taped to a pack of Depends. If they had a team of people they needed me to train for a short period of time… no I would not want to do that because I would be training people to put me out of work.

            So, I guess I can say that I’m not 100% opposed to training people… so long as they’re my people ;) Otherwise, I’m not old enough yet or rich enough that I could afford to retire and do this as something to do.

        3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          And, here I am again, still appalled. I’m appalled because what I think is happening is that they are asking you to train someone/provide feedback when doing so could literally take work and money away from you.

          For background: we have in house production art, in house design, outsourced production art overseas AND also special freelance design projects and designers. I’ve been employing artists for close to 30 years which makes me Entitled to Be Appalled at the bad behavior of your clients. Oh, and, have had art internships.

          Side thought: their having art interns without in house artists to run the internships is appalling in itself, isn’t it? The poor interns.

          Realistically, the interns aren’t likely to take money out of your pocket. It’s rare rare to find anyone just out of design school who is ready to contribute without a lot of supervision/guidance, and hey, these people are getting crappy internships, aren’t they.

          Can you back up and tackle it that way? “Fred, I think it’s great that you want to provide internship opportunities. The problem is, when you get an intern, you’re dealing with totally raw material. Supervising and training an intern requires many hours per week and it needs to be done by a professional. As you know, I don’t have that kind of time. I don’t mind spending a few minutes here and there, but I’m not in the position to devote time to training someone so new. I feel bad that Peebles isn’t getting the guidance she needs as an intern, but I can’t do that.”

          Maybe this intern thing will get out of their system when they realize that they are unequipped to take on art interns.

          * few minutes here and there: is useless. Both of us know that. I threw that in because it gives the impression of meeting halfway. Maybe it’s better to even explain why few minutes here and there is useless.

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            And it’s nice that you’re appalled! I mean in a “I’m not crazy that this is appalling” way. Yes, it is completely ridiculous to have people doing art in-house that are not artists or that cannot train whoever Intern is in what they way. Unfortunately, that is one of the problems with my area of expertise, everyone thinks because they have some clay that came pre-installed on their desk, they know how to throw a teapot, apply the handles, fire and decorate it. Not enough nope. So, I’m not even 100% certain that Intern is a design or art student, they might be a marketing or PM student who is being thrown at this for something to do — they’ve done it before with other people in the company that I’ve seen.

            I’m going to copy your post and keep it somewhere on my computer for future reference. It frames the situation nice and succinctly but I think for the moment I’m going to adopt a wait-and-see with this client. They are one of my two largest, they are the ones who flip me the more interesting creative challenges generally speaking. This is their first real “OMG you did not just ask me to do that, did you?” offense and I might be able to get around this by having a conversation similarly to what you have written with the person who is the one who asked for this. They are also an independent contractor, so I’m not sure if this was their idea or they were given this Intern and told to make sure they do a good job or what so they passed the buck to me. I’m reasonably certain that if I have an informal chat with her, I can get some background and drop a bug in her ear about this. If it does turn out that the VP told her to do this, then what you’ve written is definitely the way to go when/if it comes up again. The other companies who have tried this on aren’t ones that hire me often, so they can try it on with the people they do hire and let it be their problem. If that one does call back, I will definitely use this script and be more proactive when the project is being discussed. It’s when it’s the “gotcha!” after I’ve agreed to do the job that throws me off.

            Thanks! And have a great birthday weekend!

            1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

              I’m glad that I was helpful.

              I understand the value of being seen as “one of them”, to the point of being taken for granted, as that helps the flow of continued work. Hopefully you can finesse out of this. That would be ideal.

              (Poor interns!)

  136. Ruth (UK)*

    If anyone’s still reading down here, I am curious what (if any) pranks people consider to be work (office) appropriate.

    April fools day totally came and went this year and I played exactly no pranks and oddly, I think people expected me to? Maybe I come across as a pranky person but I only enjoy ones that are truly harmless which are hard to do well anyway. I like the pranks you get on that justforlaughs show where the person being pranked is generally in a state of wonder/confusion until they realise it’s a prank and then laugh. Their expressions are always ‘wait… wtf is going on??’ not stress or fear, etc. It’s almost more like a magic trick than a prank and if anyone is being (seemingly) harmed in them, it’s always one of the actors, not the person being pranked. (I also like flashmobs like mass freezes etc).

    The only thing I could think of that was suitably harmless for work was so lame that I didn’t even bother. Basically, to stick a post-it under someone’s mouse (the ones with sensors, not roller things) so it doesn’t work. I’ve seen this trick done by other people and it’s typically found within about 10-15 seconds.

    I have a running joke with a coworker as well where we will occasionally hide each other’s hat/scarf/bag etc at the end of the day if they leave the room at any point with it unguarded and then play warmer/colder when they come back to help them find it. The ‘lost’ item is typically found within minutes.

    Does anyone think (harmless) pranks are ever suitable at work? Or should people just forget it. I worry that even the most harmless seeming prank could be taken wrong by someone (eg. like with the vast variation in different commenter reactions back when that balcony-prank question was posted). On the other hand, people were clearly expecting me to try and pull something and seemed almost disappointed I didn’t…

    ps. I also used to work in fast food where pranking was WAY more common and accepted, including ones I thought were awful. But this is different.

    1. ThatClerk*

      Small pranks here are okay – we used to have a picture of an obnoxious vendor that we framed and put hearts over the eyes, and would hide in each other’s offices. He was a notorious ‘ladies man’ so it was pretty cute. Anything tech related would be verboten for some reason.

    2. GOG11*

      When you say that people expected it, do you mean they expected YOU to pull a prank or they expect people in general in the office to prank each other? If it’s you, I’d make a point of not doing anything, but not denying it or answering questions in a way that leaves it open…the prank would be that you lead people to believe you’ve done something and they just haven’t discovered it yet. Maybe I’m weird, but that is hilarious to me (and pretty harmless, I think).

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        I think they expected me, specifically (but I also think they wouldn’t have expected anything serious or non-harmless). I think people think I am the type of person who enjoys tricks/pranks. I often crack jokes etc and I enjoy magic tricks a lot. But mostly I just really love puns.

        I did actually consider the ‘act slightly suspicious’ thing as a prank. But wasn’t sure I could pull it off subtly enough…

    3. Beezus*

      Ctrl+Alt+down arrow will flip someone’s screen display upside down. That’s my go-to quick office prank. It’s easy to undo if you know how (Ctrl+Alt+up arrow), but if someone doesn’t, hilarity ensues.

      If I have more time, change someone’s desktop picture to something silly like one of those embarassing family photos. (This used to be the penalty for leaving your computer unlocked and unattended, in my old department. You also had to leave it as your wallpaper for the rest of the day.)

      I also like randomly appearing small objects. I have a colleague that I prank by randomly leaving varying numbers of pennies on his desk, tucked where he’ll find them one by one. A row of them lined up on the edge of a drawer, one under his mouse, one under his phone, one tucked under the flap of his pack of gum. A team I worked adjacent to had a lemon poppyseed mini muffin that was so old it had fossilized, and they used to sneak it on to one another’s desks…that grossed me out a little, but they found it amusing. One of my friends has an ongoing war with a coworker where they hide small pictures of cows for one another to find – that is part prank, part inside joke, but on any given day, he might find a cow doodled on a post it on the back of a bathroom stall, a tiny printed photo of a cow taped to a sugar packet next to the coffee, etc. etc.

  137. CaliChris*

    Just a random question – when a funeral leave policy includes ‘aunt’ and ‘uncle’, would this only be your biological aunt and uncle, or their husband/wife? My sales floor is in an uproar right now about this.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I hate funeral leave policies that specify relationships, and this is a big reason why. My great-uncle died many years ago and I got all kinds of crap for asking to take off for the funeral– he was “only” a great-uncle and he wasn’t my blood relative. Well, he’d been my grandmother’s favorite de facto brother for over 50 years and he’d been my favorite uncle as a child and I was very close to his grandchildren. I also don’t have uncles or aunts. So this automatically means I can’t go?

      I think people ought to be treated like adults when it comes to attending funerals. Most grown-ups I know don’t take funeral attendance lightly, and they are capable of deciding whether it’s worthwhile or feasible to go.

      To answer your question without my own personal vendetta against this type of specification, I think that yes, the husband/wife counts. I also believe that funerals are for the living, and if for no other reason, a niece/nephew should be allowed to attend a funeral to support his/her aunt/uncle.

      1. CaliChris*

        I see your point. One of the guys called in yesterday and then today (after covering all of his reports) we find out that it was his uncle’s longtime girlfriend, and the funeral isn’t until next Wednesday. So he took two days this week, will come back next week Monday Tuesday, and then off again Wednesday. I think the major sticking point is that a previous manager was very to-the-letter about this stuff and some of our employees with more seniority were denied for this very thing in the past.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          I think family is who you love, so blood relatives aren’t a requirement. But most places I’ve worked do require bereavement leave to be contiguous. So if you take off 3 days, they need to be 3 days in a row.

          When my father-in-law died on a Sunday, I knew I was only allowed 3 contiguous days and the service was going to be Friday. I only took Thursday and Friday off, but I did take a half day of sick on that first Monday, because I hadn’t slept and couldn’t work anyway.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Then… that’s too bad for them. I sympathize, but if the leave is available, he can take it. It’s no different from someone calling in sick. “Uncle’s longtime girlfriend” can still be a very close relationship– and maybe he was very close to this uncle and wants to be there for him. It’s really no one’s business to pick apart a relationship.

    2. KAZ2Y5*

      I think it should include both your biological relatives and their spouses. Of course, I still call my in-laws relatives even though my husband passed away 10 years ago (and technically/legally I don’t think we are related anymore).

    3. Sarah Nicole*

      If it’s someone you’re close enough to that you feel you want to attend their funeral, then that should be the end of it. If someone is all of a sudden taking off work for lots of funerals and abusing the privilege, address it with that person. But that doesn’t mean everyone else should be denied taking off for a funeral if it was a “distant” family member that was in reality very close to them. Overbearing and overly specific policies grind my gears.

      1. CaliChris*

        We can ‘take off’ any time, really, it’s just the three days additional paid leave for questionably distant family members. We’ll see what happens I guess!

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Here’s the sticking point– and I promise I’m not trying to beat up on you: who is to judge “questionably distant”? Maybe this sticks in my craw so much because I have no first cousins, yet I have many 2nd, 3rd and even 4th cousins to whom I am close. Maybe it’s because I have an extended stepfamily– my stepfather has been in my life since I was very young. I also have many friends whom I consider to be even closer than family, including a few whose funerals I would move heaven and earth to attend. If you believe a bereavement policy is being abused, it shouldn’t rest on the legalities or biologies of the relationship to the deceased.

          1. CaliChris*

            This is a good point and I will mention it to my coworkers who are upset over getting denied bereavement leave in the past. I’ve been very lucky and blessed to not have had to use our bereavement policy at all, so I don’t really know what ‘proof’ they ask for.

          2. AVP*

            This is such a good point…there are two people in my life who are sick right now that I would take a day or two off to see if they were dying, or to attend their funeral, and neither one of them are people that I’m technically related to. (One is my high school best friend’s father, the other is my boyfriend’s grandfather.) But I work at a place where all time off is just considered “personal time” so I don’t think anyone would question it closely.

    4. Treena Kravm*

      Yea I think it’s soo sticky to start judging. My co-worker’s father’s best friend died recently. It was very sudden/unexpected and he was in his 40’s. My co-worker’s father coordinated all of the logistics. The deceased had no family and his long-time girlfriend was a total mess and incapable of doing anything. Even the most liberal definition of “family” would still not allow him to take time off to mourn/coordinate the most important person to him (aside from spouse and children). Just feels icky.

  138. This is Me Not Being Me*

    I am so far down the page I don’t know if anyone will see it, but – interview today was good! I got a compliment on my cover letter. I also was ready or nearly-ready for every question they had for me. (One was phrased in an unusual way, and my planned answer for that ‘type’ of question didn’t fit – but I was easily able to substitute one that did. Phew.) I also got a compliment for asking good questions when I was asking my questions – thanks, Alison, because they were YOUR questions. I did want to know about them but I never would have thought of most of them.

    I think it was a pretty good interview, especially since it’s my first time interviewing in years. It’s still a stretch and I don’t know if the many strengths I bring will be enough to offset the one area I would have to learn, but we’ll see. Culture-wise I think it is a very good match and I could be quite happy working there. Maybe for as long as I’ve been working the job I am leaving.

    Whether or not I get the job, I feel better about my ability to present myself in an interview, and I feel like it was a good use of time. I’m very pleased about that.

    1. ThatClerk*

      That is an awesome attitude to have after an interview! It’s nice to be able to look back and see the good things that happened in it instead of worrying about what you might have said wrong. Good luck!

      1. This is Me Not Being Me*

        Thank you. It is! And honestly, for the most part, it was actually a fun time. Spent some time speaking with one of the senior employees in the sort of role I’d be going into, and we started on topic, wandered to on-topic but esoteric, and then briefly dipped off into off-topic (but I swear, related to the on-topic, and only for a few minutes). Working with these folks would be fun!

        Plus, I shared a resource I use for my own self-improvement and got pointed at another good, not-overlapping resource that I’d been unaware of. That’s a win regardless of what happens with the job!

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      I hope you get the job. But even if you don’t, you had a good interview, and that practice is always valuable. Especially when it goes so well!

      1. This is Me Not Being Me*

        Yes! And thank you. I am hoping either they or next week’s interview will offer. I’m not sure yet who to hope for more, since I haven’t had next week’s interview. I do know that I would be quite happy to work for and with the people I spoke to today, so that’s nice. And a nice ego-boost to come out of the interview, feeling like I nailed the interview – not in the sense of “Yes! this job is so definitely mine!” which in any case is never a guarantee, but just in the sense of “yes, I presented myself well and accurately, and if they hire me based on that, it should be a good fit!” I am feeling so much better about this now that I’ve actually done an interview.

  139. Sweetheart of the Rodeo*

    Anyone have any experience with sick building syndrome? I’m just a few months into my new job in a big office building built around 1980 and am experiencing bouts of coughing, sneezing, hoarseness, headaches, spaciness and general unwellness that diminish as soon as I leave the building. It’s not totally consistent from day to day or area to area, but gets worse in small conference rooms and certain areas of the building. My seasonal allergies and/or use of the air conditioning are making it worse. I already feel like such an outsider and square peg that I’m hesitant to make a thing of it and ask for the vents to be checked. I have never been so worn out by a job, which I attributed to a long commute, an intensely pressured atmosphere, and being an introvert in an open-plan office filled with much younger people, but I’m thinking now it may also be that my body is not handling something environmental very well. Yet no one else seems to be having the same reaction.

    1. GOG11*

      I don’t have experience with what you’re struggling with, so I can’t offer any advice, but I have asthma and am sometimes exposed to my triggers in the course of my work day (like cigarette smoke and fragrances). I have never felt so run down and horrid as I did during the four months of my most recent flare up. I also struggled quite a bit with feeling confident about asking for adjustments to be made for me. I’m so sorry you’re going through this and I hope others can give advice or share their experiences with you.

    2. AVP*

      oh no! Could it be an allergic reaction to one of their meaning or extermination products? We had that in my office…only one person (out of 10-ish people) felt it but it was awful for him. It was solved pretty easily by leaving a note asking the exterminator not to go into his office.

    3. nof*

      That sounds miserable. I would try to discreetly ask about it, either with an office manager or facilities type person. Also, since you do have allergies, I would check your meds – indoor allergies are ac thing, right? I’m in a new city, developed (outdoor) allergies last year, and this year my previous med isn’t working so I’m looking into new options.

      The spaciness/headaches/unwellness haa me concerned that it is a real health risk that you are just more sensitive to, rather than just a benign allergen that you are more reactive to, if that makes sense. Then again, my allergies are mild so maybe those are typical allergy symptoms?

      1. Sweetheart of the Rodeo*

        Thanks — I’m a little concerned too, but it is better as soon as I leave the office building. I don’t take any medication ever, except an occasional 1/2 Benadryl at night during peak allergy season if I don’t have to get up early (rare). Even in small doses I dislike the side effects and I don’t believe in being chronically medicated. My seasonal allergies are not severe most of the time. However, when they’re turned on, so to speak, they can leave me more sensitive to other irritants, so I think that’s why it’s been worse the past couple of weeks.

        1. Kyrielle*

          It could be allergies; it also could be a chemical sensitivity in which case the allergy medicines wouldn’t help much. But you might try Claritin or Zyrtec – both of which are usually non-drowsing for most people. (Disclaimer: I was advised not to try Zyrtec for the first time right before driving or anything, until we knew it was non-drowsing for me. I don’t remember if Claritin came with the same caution or not.)

          1. Sweetheart of the Rodeo*

            Thanks, I have tried those. They do make me drowsy and make me feel very weird. Chronic medication is not an option for me and I. I guess I was more looking for suggestions on how to address getting the air checked and the vents cleaned with the company when I seem to be the only one noticeably reacting to the building environment. I already feel as if nothing has gone well and my whole situation there feels tenuous.

            1. Kyrielle*

              I have no useful advice for that, unfortunately. I’ve never had my workplace make my allergies worse. :( Sorry – I was hoping, since you mentioned Benadryl, that maybe you hadn’t tried those two yet and they’d help.

              I hope you find a good solution to this!

              1. Sweetheart of the Rodeo*

                Thanks Kyrielle. I appreciate your thoughtful advice. The problem is not that it’s making my allergies worse; the problem is what I think is a sick building, and how to deal with it. I only mentioned allergies because they’ve made me more sensitive in the past couple of weeks to the building problem, so it’s having an even greater effect on me. My allergies are tangential to the problem. I have many days where I have no allergic reaction outside the building but am sneezing, coughing, and fatigued throughout the work day IN the building.

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      We have one person who can’t attend our church because of the building. We suspect some sort of mildew or mold from a chronic leak, and it doesn’t cause anyone any problems except for him. But, I do think his symptoms affect him for a day or two afterwards, and they are like having a cold. He can come in for a few minutes, but can’t stay for an hour for a service. (And we’d love to fix it, even if for one person, but it would take more money than our little group has.)

  140. charlotte*

    Hi all,

    I know we have talked about nosey colleagues over your but these are mainly social interactions. How do you deal with nosey colleagues who wants to know what’s everyone is doing and have a say in it? For instance if you need some information (not sensitive at all for sure. It’s a simple thing of apple and orange) to complete a task and you asked him, he would prone why you want to know and what is it for. Or she would ask another colleague to do something which he thinks is good but perhaps that’s not in the colleague’s to do list right now due to workload. Basically just wanting to have a say and instructing people what he thinks is good. He probably comes from a good point but this is becoming a bit annoying because it makes people feel stupid and it’s frustrating having to explain everything. Is there anything to do about it? And if it’s important, he is one of the pioneers in the company and is highly valued by the management. I guess that’s partly why he would like to be involved so if something doesn’t go right, she could report it and tell it to everyone.but this is frustrating and make us seems like babies who always need help. Please give some advice. I’m going a bit crazy and feel like quitting.

    1. Graciosa*

      Have you talked to him about this? That should always be the first step.

      “Bob, I’ve noticed that when I ask for information – such as where we keep the paperclips or the copy paper – you always want to know what I’m going to do with them before answering my question. This is making me feel as if you don’t trust me, or have some serious concerns about my performance that I’m not understanding. Are there performance concerns you want me to address? Because if there are, I would really like to have a chance to do that.”

      [Either Bob explains performance concern, or presumably says he just wants to understand what’s going on in the company and offer his wisdom.]

      “If that’s the case, is there another way to handle this that doesn’t have quite the same impact? I value your expertise and would certainly come to you to discuss any items where I had questions and needed to talk it over with a real expert. But stopping to discuss how I’m handling every day tasks whenever I have to ask for a paper clip is slowing down my performance and making me question – as you seem to do – whether or not I’m up to the job. If that’s not your intention, can we agree that I’ll come to you when I have questions, and you’ll ease up on stopping my work flow to ask for more detail about requests that are within my normal job scope?”

      Hopefully, he’s just very interested in the business and doesn’t realize the impact he’s having. However, changing a habit requires practice, so you may have to have a couple conversations with him about this even if he agrees to stop asking – which he may not do. He may tell you that this is how he stays abreast of what’s going on in the business, and that part of your job is stopping to respond to him no matter how that makes you feel.

      You can escalate this to your manager *after* you have tried to resolve it yourself (here’s the problem, I’ve tried X and Y to resolve it, what else can I do?). It may be that Manager is willing to go to bat for you – he is intruding on Manager’s turf (how you are managed and what work you perform) – but the dynamics simply may not allow that.

      I don’t know that this will resolve anything – it may be that this is how this business will continue to function because of his status with the company, and quitting is your final option – but you won’t find out until you have the conversations – first with him and then, if necessary, with your manager.

      So the basic advice is to start using your words.

      Good luck.

  141. Would it be weird...*

    if I bought a teeny tiny gift (like a $10 starbucks gift card) for the admin at one of the schools I work at?

    Let me explain, I work at 2 schools and the school the admin works at is just… heavenly. She is SO helpful and I don’t know if I would be half as good as my job if she weren’t so supportive (I’ve only been there for 4 months). Tonight I had such a HORRIFYING experience with the other school I work at and I truly realized how much of a help the other admin has been. I feel like I want to express my gratitude in a tiny, tiny way to her. I said this to her one day and she was just like “oh, no… if I wasn’t here someone else would be helping you,” but lol after my experience at the other school I do not think so!! She’s done so much to help me get acclimated to the school we work at together and I really, really want to express my thanks to her.

    1. GOG11*

      I don’t know whether you should or shouldn’t give her a gift card, but I did want to offer bringing this to the attention of her boss as another option (in lieu of or in addition to your idea). Ideally, companies will compensate employees, through money and non-monetary perks, in ways that match the skills and accomplishments of those employees. And bringing those accomplishments to the attention of Helpful Admin’s boss may be a great way to show your appreciation – both by paying a compliment and by providing evidence of Helpful Admin’s skills.

      1. Would it be weird...*

        Good point, but I think that our boss definitely knows how great she is. She works much closer with him than with me. I feel that the work she’s done with me has honestly been above and beyond.

        1. Would it be weird...*

          Actually, I guess I was thinking of a gift card to Starbucks or where-ever because she’s joked a few times about me buying her a large hot chocolate or coffee, would it be weird if I just showed up on Monday morning with a nice hot chocolate for her? Again, it’s just something really small I want to do.

          1. GOG11*

            I think a gift card would be a good bet unless you know what she likes. If you do know, though, you could pick up the coffee or hot chocolate and when you drop it off you could just say thank you, that you really appreciated the assistance she has given you over the past four months and that she’s been instrumental in making your time there as successful as it has been/go smoothly/*other measure of impact*. I’m not the most culturally savvy, but it doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me.

          2. Lindsay J*

            I think the large hot chocolate would be perfect. I don’t like people giving me money or money equivalents (like gift cards) because I feel uncomfortable accepting them.

            But I would be perfectly happy accepting a nice big hot chocolate and would not feel weird at all about it.

            And maybe write a nice quick note to go with the hot chocolate thanking her for how helpful she has been.

        2. GOG11*

          Maybe, but maybe not. Imagine how many other people might assume Boss must know how great Helpful Admin is because, well, how could he not know how great she is in every way? But unless he’s directly observed her going above and beyond to assist you, or you’ve already brought it up to him, he might not be aware of the extent to which she’s impacted your time at your org so far.

      2. GOG11*

        Okay, I do want to weigh in on the other aspect (sorry! It’s been a long day and I completely forgot about the two examples I state here). I just realized that I received a gift card from an adjunct professor I assisted at the end of the semester around Christmas time. She gave me the gift card as a way to say thanks for helping her, but I think it was also because we both share a certain hobby and we are both members of a local group involving that hobby (so we had heard of each other outside of work and had shared interests, as well). Receiving the gift card didn’t make me feel uncomfortable at all and did make me feel appreciated. Another adjunct gave me a starbucks mug and coffee/hot chocolate packets around the holidays to say thanks for all my help. That also made me feel appreciated.

        1. Would it be weird...*

          Yeah, I don’t want to be very extravagant or make her feel uncomfortable, I just want to do something really small. I was sort of planning on doing it already (and maybe giving it to her at the end of the year?), but oh my god… this incident I had today, lol, I feel so grateful towards her.

          1. fposte*

            Send her boss an email saying in detail how great she is and how she worked magic for you today. Even if he ostensibly knows, it never hurts to remind the boss.

  142. Laura*

    I am helping my husband with his resume. He has 15 years of commission sales and entrepreneurial experience, but didn’t graduate high school, much less anything more specialized. Do I skip the education section or will that raise more questions. He was in the military, but took an early discharge for family reasons. Should I put that anywhere?

    1. Laura*

      His career I think speaks pretty strongly for itself… lots of sales records and promotions and whatnot, so I am not going to have to prove he his basically competent.

      1. LUCYVP*

        Personally, I eliminated the education section on my resume years ago and never looked back. I bopped around to various schools for awhile but have no college degree so it doesn’t really mean anything. I say get rid of the education section and focus on the strengths of his candidacy.

        As for the military – I don’t see any reason not to include it as long has he wasn’t dishonorably discharged. Depending on how long his service was and what his role was you could focus more space on it, or leave it as a note in an ‘other’ section.

    2. Graciosa*

      Well, the resume is basically a marketing document, so you want to include the things that will make it strong and skip other items. I’m not seeing how education is going to add to his resume, so I’m inclined to have you use the space for something else. Unfortunately, a negative assumption (“I wonder why he didn’t include education – maybe he doesn’t have a degree”) is probably going to be true so I don’t think he would be any worse off.

      Analyze the military experience the same way – is it going to make his application stronger? If so, include it.

      Unfortunately, a lot of places where his military experience would be seen as an asset – large employers, defense contractors – will consider him ineligible for most professional positions (including commissioned sales) because of his lack of a degree. He might have better luck with smaller employers.

      Best wishes.

    3. LisaLee*

      Personally, after a 15+ year work history, I would just leave off the Education section as long as it doesn’t leave a big blank space. I would definitely mention military experience though, especially if he got any sort of awards or promotions during that time.

  143. HoosierMouse*

    Ok, this one isn’t for me, it’s for a friend: she followed the askamanager cover letter examples, but no luck on the job search yet, even when she has every single skill listed for a job. She’s also in the graphic design industry so she’s wondering if she needs to do something else in her cover letter or resume that would be appealing to employers. If there are any graphic designers reading, are there any tips/tricks for resumes and cover letters that might be industry specific?

  144. mabel*

    Hi y’all! Is getting a gift card ($10 or so) for my boss’ birthday appropriate? Would love to hear what y’all think!

    1. Graciosa*

      No, no, no.

      Gifts in the work place flow down, not up.

      He can give you a gift card for your birthday if he wishes, but this is not something you should do. It puts him in a very difficult position.

      1. mabel*

        Hi, thanks for responding. It’s still a nono even though we are on friendly term (not hierarchical) and I just want to thank him for his guidance?

        1. ThatGirl*

          You could send him a really nice card, telling him how much his mentorship means to you! I’ve gotten a few of those and they are better than any gift.

          1. Kitchenalia*

            I would say no as well. My boss is known to give me *very* nice bottles of champagne for my birthday and at Christmas. I am known to give him some eggs from my backyard chickens. But sometimes I do this randomly anyway. And sometimes not. I don’t want either of us to feel weird.

        3. Graciosa*

          Still a no, regardless of how friendly you are. The fact that he’s your boss trumps everything else.

  145. Anon looking looking looking*

    Anybody here in the Architecture industry? I know it’s a different culture, is it a truly “who you know, not what you know” strategy to land you a job?

    1. Anonniemouse*

      I can’t speak for the architecture industry but in mine, it very much is who you know. Part of the reason why I got the job I have now is because I had previously interned at a tiny, but extremely well respected and well-known organization in town which seems to open a lot of doors. So maybe a strategic internship might help?

  146. Elizabeth West*

    Boy, what a day. I woke up with a horrible spasm in my knee–it hurt so bad and I can’t walk very well. But I had to go to work because I had to do the front desk today.

    Then when I did that, someone flouted the secure access policy and gave me a patronizing explanation for it, so I did an end run around them with the admin manager. I was in pain, cranky, and NOT in the mood. I do not want to be responsible for any issues. People ignore policies and they don’t realize it bites the admins in the ass.

    Finally Friday ended and I made it home. Now I’m sitting here with my leg up, completely and utterly high on Tylenol-3. Boy, this is great stuff. Whoooooooooooo……..my leg feels much better now. :}

    1. Steve G*

      I drink to this. Dramatic but not hard week here, lots of dealing with contractors coming at weird hours for my apartment renovations, and job interviews. Some good, some bad. Hope your knees are ok enough to drive!

  147. Emilia Bedelia*

    So about a month and a half ago, I interviewed for and was offered an internship. Yay! I asked for a few days to make a final decision, because I had another interview with another group from the same company for another position. The HR rep said fine, get back to us by Wednesday (it was Friday). After the other interview, I decided that the other position didn’t sound like as good a fit, so I called back on Tuesday morning to accept the first position. HR rep says she’ll follow up within a week with the next steps.
    2 weeks pass, no word… I call back, she says she has a meeting about the position that day and she’ll get back to me soon. Another 2 weeks pass….meanwhile, I email the hiring manager who I interviewed with, she says she’s sent her picks to HR and I need to contact them for further info.
    After those 2 weeks, I call the HR rep again. Apparently, when I asked for a few extra days, they decided to just fill the position with the next person on the list. But, to quote the HR rep, “We have about 50 positions and you were a strong candidate, so I passed your resume along to about 6 other hiring managers. They’ll probably contact you… soon…sometime.” This was 2 weeks ago. As you have maybe guessed, I have heard nothing and have given up on this job.
    My question is… how do I keep this from happening again? Is this all on them, or in the future, is there something that I should have done? At first I regretted mentioning to the HR rep that I had another interview, but it was with the same company, so I didn’t think it was too big of a faux pas- was I wrong? And finally, is there anything I could do at all to maybe salvage something? This was my only internship offer, so I’m a bit panicky now after spending a month and a half of waiting around- at this point, I’m willing to do something potentially embarrassing just to get anything for the summer. Any advice?

    1. StudentA*

      Do you have anything in writing saying that they allowed you to think about it for a few days? If so, I would forward that email to the HR rep as well as the hiring manager. Let them know that you’ve turned down other opportunities, and that you are disappointed that you lost out on this one. Don’t give up easily. They misled you, if not out right lied to you :(

      All I can say is, for the future, have the next steps in writing. There is not a whole lot you can do about employers who lack integrity. You will run into more of them, unfortunately. Just get in the habit of having as much in writing as possible.

      1. Graciosa*

        Well, this would be a good way to eliminate any possibility that you’ll be considered for any other positions with this employer. You may not mind that after this incident, but you need to understand the consequences.

      2. Emilia Bedelia*

        Unfortunately no- that’s sort of my problem, I couldn’t get them to give me anything in writing, not even an email. When I asked for something in writing, she just told me “We’ll get back to you soon”. The same HR person was handling all the internships, so accepting the first offer was effectively turning down the other one.
        Basically, I felt like none of the advice I had ever heard was working! Except for, of course, “If they want to hire you, they won’t forget about you”. Sadly, very true in this case :(

    2. toothy*

      I think irresponsible behaviour is getting more and more common even among HR professionals, not sure whether they should be called professional at all especially in your situation.

      I would suggest to get everything in black and white next time before you turn down other opportunities.

  148. toothy*

    Recently I had a final round interview and the interviewer who is the director promised she would get back to me by end of that week but she did not.
    Thus, I followed up with the direct manager of that role she promised I should receive an update by 6th April but till now there’s no news.
    I felt that they are being disrespectful to candidate as they did not honour to their promise. Even if I don’t get selected shouldn’t they at least send me a rejected email?
    What’s wrong with companies these days?

    Is it such a norm now?

    1. Katherine*

      This unfortunately seems to be getting more and more the norm.

      Allison has done advice on following up before, but IMO you can follow up if they have missed a deadline that they told you they would meet. Be very casual – just ask if they have any news.

      If you stop getting responses, follow up twice, that’s it.

  149. Katherine*

    Hi everyone –

    What advice do you have for one-on-ones with your manager when you work in a place where you only have them every few months? This is new to me. My first was easy as I asked about career paths within the organization and met her. My second was pretty easy too as we discussed the new position I had been moved into. The last quarter has been difficult for me largely because of forces out of my control and I don’t feel I’ve done very well (read, not exceptional) though I also have no reason to think that there will be a performance concern beyond the usual feedback you get at these meetings. I have to do this Monday.

    Katherine

    1. Graciosa*

      Show that you’re thinking about the issues of the last quarter – you recognize them and want to come up with a way to improve. This is the approach even if none of this is your fault – the best employees are thinking about how the organization can improve in addition to thinking about how their individual performance can improve.

      Remember that this is a dialogue, so you don’t have to go in with all the answers.

      “In thinking about last quarter, I noticed we had a lot of problems filling orders at the end of the month when we ran out of supplies. I made sure all affected customers were notified and worked with production on the revised delivery dates, but I can’t help wondering what else we could do to manage this in the future. Are there things I could do better in this type of situation?”

      Even if the problem is entirely due to purchasing screwing up the ordering, you’re still thinking about the business and telling your boss you’re open to feedback.

      Finally, these will get easier the more often you do them. Quarterly is not that frequently to meet with your manager, but you should regard every meeting as an opportunity and make the most of it.

      1. Katherine*

        Thanks Graciosa! In the past I’ve worked only at places where I have weekly one-on-ones with my manager; but the difference here is that we are highly project based so my weekly meetings are now with my project team, not with my direct supervisor. So the quarterly meetings can be difficult and there’s a lot to unpack.

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