open thread – May 1, 2015

by Alison Green on May 1, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,213 comments }

{ 1,213 comments… read them below }

  1. (Less) Frustrated*

    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who gave input last week (about an undermining manager who basically won’t let me do the supervisory aspect of my job)—my manager and I met to discuss his expectations of me, and it looks like it’s not really about what I’m doing or not doing. He simultaneously told me that he doesn’t undermine me, but even if he does, it’s because it happens to him all the time, and it’s part of the culture here. I met with HR (on an unrelated matter), and was told that my manager had issues with both of my predecessors, both related to his inability to let them do their jobs, and relegating them to the role of clerk (which is obviously not what any of us signed up for).
    At this point, I think I’m better off looking elsewhere. And thank you! to Not So NewReader—you asked the exact right question: no, I don’t want this job, even if some of these aspects improve. From what I’ve seen, the culture here is less about getting work done, and more about playing mind games, and I’m definitely not the right person for that.
    Now it’s just a matter of figuring out how to approach job hunting. I’m pregnant and due in July. I plan to be home for at least 2-3 months after the baby comes, but don’t want to leave all my job applications until right after he’s born —when is the earliest I should be applying for jobs?

    1. Artemesia*

      Can you time it so you are actively available for interview at about 6 weeks post partum. I don’t know how many kids you have had, but when I had mine, that 6 weeks mark was a big point of change for me. By that point nursing was under control, my figure was pretty much back to normal and my energy level more or less back. for the first particularly, the first month was very rough — certainly would not have wanted to be interviewing. And if you have never had a child it can come as a shock that in the days immediately after the birth you still look 5 mos pregnant. For me the weight and toning went to normal relatively quickly, but that first month of exhaustion, out of shapeness and stress over the new Mom role was not the time to be putting a best foot forward elsewhere.

    2. BRR*

      Yeah, just because he gets undermined doesn’t make it ok to do it to others.

      Are you ok interviewing soon after the birth? Maybe start applying late may early june. Then start 2-3 months after the baby is born (congratulations!) by the time they finish.

    3. Anon Accountant*

      Definitely sounds good to be job searching. Maybe 1 or 2 months after the baby is born would be better time to start applying so you can be more settled into a new routine with the baby?

    4. BananaPants*

      Immediately postpartum, I would not have been able to put my best foot forward in an interview. I wasn’t getting enough sleep, I was still a bit sore/achy, and I’m a nursing mom who wouldn’t have been comfortable (emotionally or physically) with having to pump to leave a newborn for several hours. And my suit probably wouldn’t have fit! At around 5-6 weeks was when things got much easier; I was only up twice overnight and the baby was eating faster and I was fully physically recovered from delivery. I went back to work at 10 weeks with our first and 12 with our second and was definitely OK with it then.

      I would see how you feel and at a month after delivery, start applying. Assuming it takes a week or two at a minimum to get called for an interview, you’d be 6+ weeks postpartum by the time you actually interview. By the time you get through an entire hiring process you could easily be 3+ months postpartum.

  2. Adam*

    TGIF. Moving apartments over the weekend is a special kind of exhaustion. But I have a job hunt question I could use some help with please!

    Practicing interview questions and could use some feedback on an answer to the dreaded “Tell me about a weakness you have” bit.

    Recently I’ve been considering using something along the lines of “I can be a bit shy/not proactive about advocating for my own work and making sure my managers are up to date on all the things I’m accomplishing.” Very roughly worded.

    Context example: I have a co-worker who I collaborate with all the time assisting her with product review, quality checks, and various administrative tasks for our website. These tasks aren’t really part of my job description per se, but are directly related to my work so it’s well within my sphere to assist where I can. According to my co-worker I am an absolute lifesaver with all the work I take on for her.

    My department director, who both oversees these products and I interact with regularly, had absolutely no idea I did any of these things until it came up in a conversation with said co-worker who pointedly related how grateful she is I’m around to help. I tend to naturally be the sort where “a job well done speaks for itself”, but obviously in a busy office it’s easy for the higher ups to miss what you’re doing if you don’t let them know about it.

    Now this is a weakness to address in my personal development, but is it a valid one to bring up in an interview? I could easily see it being interpreted as the cliché “I work too hard!” type of answer.

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I think you’re right that’s it’s a “I work too hard!” type of answer.

    3. Future Analyst*

      I would be hesitant to use this as your weakness: it definitely comes off as a humblebrag. “I’m so good at my job, and helping with others’ work, and I don’t even ask for credit!” I’m also curious as to why you see it as a weakness, period. Has it negatively affected your worklife in the past? If so, it may be that the bigger issue is that you’re not communicating effectively (or at all). When you have reviews, do you identify the things you did well during the year? Or do you let others assess for themselves what you’ve done well? This may just be an issue of speaking up when you are given the opportunity to do so.

      1. Adam*

        Thank you commentors for the input. You confirmed what I was thinking so I’ll think of a better answer.

        To answer Future’s questions, I think it is a weakness to an extent as I’m naturally a keep to myself type of person and since my position doesn’t require much supervision I can end up doing a lot of things no one ever notices. I’ve never had a bad review, but review time seems to be about the only time my accomplishments get much of a highlight, and they’re usually the first time the higher ups hear about them.

        It’s also a question of how much company culture sucks (which is a lot). My direct managers are great but are so bogged down by the larger office Tom Foolery that my little corner of the world doesn’t draw much attention so long as the work is being done right. If I want to get noticed so I can have the opportunity to broaden my skills and do more interesting work I really have to hammer the point sometimes, and even then have to wait for a committee to decide it’s ok then.

        1. Beezus*

          I think if you boil it down, though, that’s a way you’re doing a disservice to yourself, and not really to your employer. Try thinking about things your boss might say you can work on.

          1. Adam*

            Good idea, although really he’d probably say that I’m not working on getting out of here fast enough (In a good way. He wants out too.)

    4. Salt bagel*

      I think there’s something here you can use. Maybe you can avoid the humblebrag aspect by playing up the shyness part, with a focus on how you work around it. Something like “I tend to be quiet, put my head down, and get the job done, and sometimes in the past I’ve let that get in the way of accepting credit for work I’ve done.” (There may be a better way to word this.)

      I know Alison has said in the past to point out how you have gotten past that weakness, so you probably need to ask yourself how you can start doing that without waiting for annual reviews or formal sitdowns. You could say something to your boss like, “I had the opportunity to help Sue out with the TPS reports this week, and I appreciated the opportunity to be exposed to that aspect of the job. She gave me some great feedback about my help, so I wanted to let you know.”

      1. Natalie*

        Eh, I’m still not sure this is actually answering the question. Ideally, a hiring manager wants to know weaknesses that affect your ability to do the job, not your ability to get credit for doing the job. This particular weakness is more about the OP’s professional development rather than their fitness for any particular role.

        1. Adam*

          Yeah, that’s a fair point. I’m a little on edge with interviews because THIS time I actually want to find a company that actually cares about its staffs’ professional development. But those are questions for further along in the process.

          1. Natalie*

            I totally get that – I’m looking for the same in my next job – but the “weakness” question isn’t the right place for that particular issue.

    5. Camellia*

      Many weaknesses are either the flip side of a strength or a strength taken too far.

      For example, I excel at taking a vague one sentence customer request and jumping on it, getting my arms around it, wrestling it to the ground, and ultimately coming with with concrete requirements that can be coded, tested, and delivered to that customer.

      The opposite of this is that if you stuck me somewhere processing nothing but one-line maintenance changes I would be so bored my eyes would cross and I wouldn’t stay happy very long.

      Carry this strength to the extreme and I can become a control monster.

      Maybe thinking along these lines will help you come up with a better answer for this question.

      1. PinkiePieChart*

        I had an interview recently where I was asked what would happen if I took a strength too far. Confidence turns into arrogance, that sort of thing. I thought that was a really good question and much more interesting that “what are your weaknesses.”

    6. OOF*

      Yeah, I think this is too much a strength. Here are two examples that I use that demonstrate an ability to be honest in a way that I don’t think is penalizing me:

      I’m very good at thinking strategically, and implementing ideas and opportunities successfully. However, I am not the world’s most creative person. I know this about myself, and that means that when my work would benefit from some creative thinking, I reach out to colleagues to brainstorm. I cultivate relationships with those who I know are creative, so that when we bring together our two perspectives, we end up with a stronger outcome than one person might normally reach.

      I’m actually a bit shy. This matters in our field, of course, because I’m constantly interacting with clients. I learned when I was very new to the professional world that I couldn’t let this be something that got in the way of being successful in my role, so I’ve had a good deal of practice now pushing myself out of my comfort zone, and also identifying which situations may have me feeling particularly shy so that I have a strategy in my mind in advance.

    7. Michele*

      I would steer clear of that. The person may stop listening before you get to the example and just hear you say that you don’t communicate well, which is a major problem.

      I hope you enjoy your new apartment. Moving can be exciting.

    8. nep*

      Same here — it absolutely strikes me as one of those ‘I work too hard’, ‘I’m a perfectionist’ responses.

  3. Nervous Accountant*

    How do you advise someone who’s not motivated to do much? She’s young, 18, graduated HS but dropped out of college after going for a few days. It seems like she’s lost and has no direction, but I haven’t seen her very much or spoken to her…I only know this bc of a few conversations w her sisters. Her family has tried to get through to her but shes’ not listening to anyone.

    I think there are some deeper issues at play as to why she’s not motivated to do anything……only reason I think this is bc I’ve felt that way and wasn’t motivated or ambitious at that age…but not going to college was NEVER an option in my family.

    What I’m stumped is what exactly to advise her. My husband and her sisters all have different opinions..force her to go to school, get a ft job instead, etc. She wants to do retail or food service, but her family is telling her to aim higher….I disagree bc at her stage, with only a HS diploma and NO college education, retail or food service is ALL she can get right now. I would suggest that she take those jobs, in the hopes that she’ll be so miserable that she’ll be motivated to go back to school. Others disagree with this approach. What do you guys think?

    1. Ali*

      My brother is somewhat like this. He went to college and does have a job as a food service aide in a nursing home, but he’s pretty content with just that and isn’t really caring to aim higher. My mom was asking me one night why he can’t be more motivated and how we should really try to encourage him to have bigger aspirations. I told her I feel like it’s losing weight and that you can’t force anyone to want a high-level job or a powerful career, a graduate degree or whatever.

      Maybe encourage your family member to explore different careers and the education required, just to see if anything can interest her before she commits to it? See if she wants to job shadow or something?

      That said, I’ve worked in food service before to make ends meet, and if you can get into the right place and move up enough, management seems like a decent enough career. Something like that could end up being good for her.

      1. Sunflower*

        A hotel might be a good choice for her too. Start off as a server or front desk agent and she could be a manager in a couple years..

    2. Question from Ontario, Canada*

      I’d take her out to lunch and ask her what she’s interested in. Explain there are more than just college options… there’s trades, university, apprenticeships, etc. If she says she’s interested in retail, maybe guide her to retail management which can be successful. Also, listen more than anything. I was that age not too long ago and I would’ve just enjoyed someone asking me about my life in an adult manner. If you push-push-push or threaten, she’s close up. If she truly wants to do food or retail, tell her to go for it, she’ll realize after a few years it doesn’t make much and then motivation will kick it… that’s what my sister did. She’s 24 now and in school now studying something that she knows she wants to do.

      1. puddin*

        I like this approach. The idea is to find out what do she wants to do right now…and not asking “what do I want to be when I grow up.” Then do that thing she wants to do. If she needs to also do something else in order to accomplish that thing (like get a job to pay for backpacking through Europe) then plan that out and meet that objective as a means to the end.

        Also, I have to add military service a another non-college option.

      2. Beancounter in Texas*

        I like the supportive attitude in your answer, Question from Ontario, Canada. As I am learning with my toddler, inviting her to cooperate with me and responding positively when she does gets us closer to my end goals on a much happier note than physically wrestling her and forcing my will upon her. And truly, it’s bonding when we work together.

        So much of knowing “what to do with your life” stems from some serious introspection and/or knowing yourself well, even if it’s “I do not want to do retail/food service.” Better for her to explore now while she is young without big responsibilities and has a safety net of parents.

      3. Lindsay J*

        This.

        I was one of those people where college wasn’t an option – I was going, no question about it.

        So I went, right out of high school.

        And I didn’t exactly goof off, but I switched my major a couple times because I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, I struggled with depression and lack of motivation, and racked up a ton of student loans and graduated with a much lower GPA than I should have.

        And now I do something that has nothing to do with my major, and that I only needed a high school diploma for.

        My little brother went to a ridiculously expensive school for a niche major and is now doing the food service grind anyway because there’s no jobs in what he wants to do.

        There are a lot of people who don’t want to do the regular 9-5 office type of job, and don’t want or need a college education to do what they want to do.

        I tend to find myself in weird job ecosystems, and there have been people successfully living on their own, building a family, etc, on their salaries in all of them (even very minimal salaries). And lots of them it’s entirely possible to work your way up within to something that makes a decent wage without additional schooling – just show up, work hard, and show you’ve got some common sense.

        I know people who are spending their careers working in amusement parks. Doing photography. Working in restaurants. Retail. Pizzarias. Working for an airline. Driving for UPS. Working in hotels. There are certainly people in these types of positions that hate their jobs – but I think that holds true for any type of job. There are also a lot of people in these jobs that love what they do every day.

        I think I would have greatly benefited from some actual conversations when I was in high school and just out of high school about the types of jobs that are available out there – without the “you’re too good to spend your life in retail” insinuation that any career talks I ever had included. I’m not a sit down, sit still, and do work for 8 hours a day type of person. I need a changing environment and a variety of tasks or else I am bored out of my mind. I am not wired to be able to wake up and do work at 8AM or 9AM. I like working independantly and feeling like people rely on me. There are a lot of environements that I can and do thrive in. Some exposure to them would have been nice, rather than being pushed into the one-size-fits-all model of going to college and getting a “good” (read, white collar) job that kids – and especially smart kids, and I think especially smart girls – get pushed into.

        I’m assuming she knows she has to pay the bills somehow. Have a frank talk with her about what she actually wants to do. What’s her plan? If she likes the idea of food service, is she okay with the fact that she won’t likely ever have a weekend off and will be working long hours, and if she’s a waitress that her pay may fluctuate wildly based on how busy her shifts are? Does she just want to work in a restaurant for a couple years while she figures out what she wants to do as a career, or does she intend to make it a career and/or dream of oneday opening her own?

    3. fposte*

      I think if she’s not listening to anyone, it’s probably a moot point. Being eighteen and making bad plans isn’t necessarily something you can be advised out of.

      I mean, yeah, I think she should get a job and do so ASAP; otherwise, presuming she’s living with her parents and not paying rent, it’s going to be the longest summer vacation ever. But if her parents are willing to subsidize a longer job hunt, it’s going to be up to her to decide if she wants something other than summer vacation. Unless there’s something about her skills or your area you haven’t mentioned, I think she’s going to have a tough time aiming very high with only an HS diploma, but that’s more about what I’d say to her parents rather than her.

    4. Sunflower*

      Well I don’t know who she is so I’m not sure how much your opinion matters. I think you have the right approach. I wish going to college directly out of HS wasn’t the norm. It’s tough because they say the longer you go out of school, the harder it is to go back. However, college is expensive so forcing her to go is not a great idea. Maybe she can get a retail or food service job and take a class at community college to meet in the middle a bit.

      1. Anx*

        Same.

        I think that if you wait a while but still go before you have a family, you’re golden. Also, at a certain point you’re an independent adult, so you’re family wouldn’t be expected to pay for college.

    5. Adam*

      Is it possible she might be depressed? When I had no direction that was the primary issue at hand. I still went to college and graduated, but at the time I tended to be pretty automatic on things I’m “expected” to do and college was definitely on that list. Maybe some counseling to help guide her out of a funk is in order.

      Of course, she could also be the type that has no interest/is not built for school. In which case does she have other interests that could lead to long term careers with a little bit of training like retail manager, sales, web developer, hair stylist, or something?

      If she tended to float through her formative years with little responsibility it’s possible she simply hasn’t given much thought to her future. I imagine she’ll figure it out when she has absolutely no choice otherwise, but of course this means her family can’t always be bailing her out when she needs money or something. Desperation can lead to self-invention when she realizes she is now the one who has to take care of herself.

      1. Hlyssande*

        This is what I was going to chime in with. Not to armchair-diagnose, but this story very much resonates with me and my struggle with depression.

        Nervous Accountant, if you’re going to take her out to lunch as a get to know you session, really try to get to know her and leave your expectations out of it as much as you can. Don’t start pushing anything immediately because that will probably get you instantly put into the ‘boring adult, whatever’ category where she won’t listen to you. Ask her what she likes, as her favorite bands, hobbies, etc. Get to know her as a person first if you can.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        I’m not sure if it’s depression…but I’m drawing on my own experiences. When I was that age, the reason I wasn’t motivated was due to low self esteem, low confidence etc….not thinking I had potential to do better….just a bundle of issues stemming from childhood etc. (Maybe that is part of depression? idk).

        It’s one thing if she has no direction and needs a nudge or push, it’s another if she’s just not motivated due to other issues.

        1. catsAreCool*

          That’s a tough thing to deal with. It would help to know what’s going on.

          A retail or food service job might be a good way for her to experience the working world. I worked in food service during college, and it was a serious incentive for me to do well in school.

          It might be just as well that she isn’t going to college yet – going to college when unmotivated is pretty expensive.

    6. april ludgate*

      Sounds like my younger sister, she’s still going to high school but she’s not doing well. Honestly, I don’t think it’s possible to force someone into being motivated, that’s something they have to find for themselves. I also don’t think that retail and food jobs necessarily make everyone “miserable.” Sure, plenty of people hate them, but there are other people that flourish in those environments and that doesn’t make them any less respectable than a person who went to college or has a typical “office” job, and she might be one of those people. Those jobs are often filled by young adults who “don’t have any direction” and there’s a sort of solidarity in that at times. If she wants to work in retail or food service, her family should stop discouraging her. And she must have some motivation if she wants to have a job at all. Not everyone is cut out for college and that is okay, but she’s an adult and she deserves to choose her own path in life without having the people closest to her telling her that her choices aren’t good enough.

    7. Elkay*

      If she wants to work in retail or food service those are both viable career options. I know someone who started at McDonalds as a weekend job and ended up as regional manager for his area of the country. Equally, there are vocational courses for both those areas. Quite honestly at 18 she can afford a year working in retail/food service, it might help her focus on what she would like to do.

    8. Payroll Lady*

      I would suggest her looking for a full time position. My daughter was like this at 18 and worked food service for a while. In her case, she got lucky, one of her customers saw potential in her and had her go test to be a para-professional (teacher’s aide). She actually passed the test, was sent to a school district that is pretty “rough” for our state and has ended up helping Special Needs Children. She loves her job, and is now looking (at 21) to start college for the summer session. Sometimes things can fall in your lap, sometimes you have to work to go further, but that is a decision only she can make in the long run and forcing her to go to school, will only cause her to fail out if she doesn’t want to be there.

    9. Artemesia*

      Our rule for our kids was: be in college or have a job and support yourself. If they wanted to live at home, they had to be paying rent if not in college. One of our kids dropped out after the freshman year of college and we insisted he support himself which he did and in the process found out how much he didn’t want to live a life where he had to live on what he could make at the kinds of jobs he could do without an education.

      But that is for her parents to figure out. As a friend, I’d encourage them to require her to work but not hassle her about the kind of work she does as long as she either pays rent or lives on her own — let her know that if she wants to return to school later, they will assist. Ours returned to college after 2 years and graduated Summa cum Laude and had a ride to grad school. The idea that such jobs are beneath her is weird — they are what she can do and she should be required to do a job she can get.

      For you as a friend with her, a more relaxed discussion of how she sees her life going might be helpful. Kids this age who are doing this are hyper sensitive to being pushed and manipulated. I’d probably encourage her to put off college until she knows what she wants i.e. reinforce her current instincts and encourage her to get any job she can get now while she is sorting herself out. She is an adult, it is her life, pressure won’t get anyone anywhere.

      1. catsAreCool*

        “require her to work but not hassle her about the kind of work she does as long as she either pays rent or lives on her own ” This!

    10. Lily in NYC*

      I think this is a perfect example of the saying: the world needs ditch diggers, too. Not everyone is cut out for college and not everyone is ambitious. Maybe she would excel in retail and move up to management. Maybe she would be happier going to a trade school; my cousin rakes in money as an electrician and I know a few hairdressers who make great money. I like what Ontario wrote above – maybe she just doesn’t realize how many non-college options there are out there. I think taking her out to lunch and helping her explore her interests would be really helpful. Heck, I was a great student who went to a good university and still could have used a conversation like that.

      1. Adam*

        +1 There really should be more conversations about how college is “a” path to a future and not “THE” path. For kids who don’t know what they want every option available should be on the table so they can make an informed decision. And for the electricians and hairdressers of the world if they know that’s their destiny then they should be able to dive in when they’re ready and excited about it. No need to waste time, energy, and money on college if it’s not ultimately part of their game plan.

      2. Sunflower*

        I would love to be a hair dresser but it’s just so not my niche. If I was talented at it though, I would do it in a heartbeat!

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I know, me too! But only if all of my clients would be willing to have hair like one of the three stooges, because I think that’s all I’d be able to do.

        2. Lindsay J*

          I know! I think being a hair dresser would be cool, but I’m so anxious I don’t think I could enjoy it – I would always be worried that the client was going to completely hate their hair when I finished with it.

      3. Pennalynn Lott*

        My boyfriend is a window cleaner. Not a sky-scraper window cleaner, but a residential 1- and 2-story homes window cleaner. He made $120,000 last year. That’s a lot of money here in Texas.

      4. Stephanie*

        Yeah, I was talking to one of the drivers at Brown Shipping Company last night about people stealing things. He’s like “Man, I don’t get why the guys do that. I bring home $1500 every week and others bring home more. There’s no need to steal a phone out a box.”

        I’m just thinking “Yup. That’s more than I made out of college and more than many people I know with degrees.”

        1. Lindsay J*

          Yeah, that’s my “If I could start life over at 18” career option. Apparently driver’s with a lot of years in can pull in over $100K.

          1. Windchime*

            Yeah, my brother-in-law raised his family on being a driver who wears the brown uniform. They weren’t rich, but they had/have a very nice life that now includes long tropical vacations once a year or so. No college whatsoever.

          2. Stephanie*

            I think the six figure guys are outliers. They’re probably senior guys getting OT. But they do make good money, especially when you factor in that they didn’t need college for the job. People wait years for those driver slots to open up.

            Not to romanticize it too much. I think it does take a physical toll eventually and a career-ending or -hampering injury is a very realistic possibility. But it is an example of a well-paying job that doesn’t require college.

    11. Xarcady*

      If I were this 18 year old’s parent, I’d first want a through physical check-up and depression screening, just to make sure that there isn’t some underlying cause for the lack of motivation. When I was 20, I became very anemic and while I didn’t drop out of college, I didn’t want to go to class, plan for my future, or anything. Only when I had to go to the student health center for something else was the anemia discovered and then treated and I became myself again.

      Eighteen is the right age to learn by making mistakes. Let her take the fast food and/or retail jobs. Her parents should, if she continues to live at home, charge rent, either in money or chores done around the house. She’s eighteen and she wants to be independent–let her take over all car-related costs–gas, insurance, monthly payments. And her phone bill. There is a fair chance that after some months of spending most of her pay on rent, gas and her phone, she might wise up.

      It is also possible that college is simply not for this person. While I believe strongly in education, college is not the right fit for everyone. And frankly, when the toilet is overflowing, I want a trained, experienced plumber, not a PhD. So some gentle discussions about what she would like to do eventually–be a hairdresser, an electrician, build houses, be a professional dog trainer–there’s probably something that she’d like to do, but she has no idea how to get to the place where she can do [whatever], because her whole family’s focus is on college.

      One of my cousins attempted college for a semester, and hated it. And both sides of my family are very, very college-oriented. There were fights with his parents, and our grandparents. He really wanted to ski. So he moved out of the family house, found a job teaching lessons at a ski resort in the winter, and building houses in the summer. Along the way, he worked a variety of low-paying retail and fast-food type jobs.

      He went on to be in several skiing films, and to run his own skiing classes. He started his own construction company that builds houses in the summer and shuts down for the winter so everyone can ski.

      He’s in his 40s, his parents became reconciled to his lifestyle years ago, and he’s happy. He’s built a house in the mountains, has a lovely wife, two kids, and is better off financially than several of his siblings.

      Just to show that college isn’t for everyone, and that a successful career can be built without it.

    12. LQ*

      Not everyone wants a college degree, some people want to work retail, some people want to work in food service. If everyone tells her what she wants is wrong or not what she wants she’ll just push harder to do it. Let her get a job in food service or retail, she might love it. She might hate it. But she’ll learn from it. She might get miserable and get motivated to go to school, she might decide it’s fine because she’s done at 6 pm and she’s watched parents and siblings have jobs that require them to work until 10 pm.

      Let her try things, mostly, let her own her life for a little while, because that’s what she wants. (And yes that means letting her live on her own, make her own friends, choices, etc.)

    13. BRR*

      I’m not sure how you know her but it sounds like you might be too unrelated to offer unsolicited help.

      You could try (and don’t push it), “I know it can be overwhelming trying to figure out what you want to do. If you ever want someone to discussion options with let me know.” I think the goal is to frame it as brainstorming, not telling her what to do. So instead of saying, “You should get a job, your parents won’t help you forever (I’m assuming she’s receiving financial help or at least a roof over her head)” you say, “What would you do if they weren’t around to help you?”

    14. College Career Counselor*

      Don’t know where you are or what this person’s affiliations might be, but there a gap year possibilities that involve service (americorps programs, avodah, quaker service), teaching (city year), learning a skill, organic farming (WWOOF), americorps, environmental engagement (student conservation association, orion grassroots network), to name a few.

      It may also be that a year (or so) of retail/food service is exactly what she wants to do (forcing her to go to school is a Bad Idea, however) and may spur some interest. The more I do this job, the more I see the value of NOT going to college right away (maturity, independence, gaining clarity about what you really care about, etc.). So, not going to college is not the worst thing, esp. if she’s not engaged with it.

      1. Daydreamer*

        +1

        If I knew at 18 what I know now, I would have taken some time before going to university. I wasn’t ready – I wasn’t mature enough, and in many ways it felt like a big waste of time and money. There are things she could do – work the retail or food jobs, travel, maybe do some international volunteering.

      2. Snoskred*

        Absolutely – having a gap year is a thing that is common here in Australia and I think it is super important. Most gap year kids I have known tend to travel around Australia or travel to UK/Europe and work in bars. I do know someone older – mid-30s – who quit their well paying job and went off and is doing that now because they missed out on doing it in their gap year.

        If I could go back in time, I would make my gap year Hawaii. There’s heaps of food service jobs on Oahu and it is such a gorgeous place to be. :)

    15. Malissa*

      A few months(years) in retail or food service is usually enough to get priorities like school and having a career back to center stage. Or maybe she’ll find a career in retail.

    16. Carrie in Scotland*

      The other thing is, is that life is fluid. If she doesn’t go onto high ed. now/soon, then it doesn’t mean NEVER.
      I’ve gone to university 3 times – once when I was 18 (dropped out), then I was 19-21 (dropped out in 2nd year) and when I was 24 I started again (all 3 were totally different subjects!).

    17. some1*

      “with only a HS diploma and NO college education, retail or food service is ALL she can get right now”

      Actually, some entry-level office jobs only require a high school diploma or GED. I used to work at financial services company with many people who started working there right after graduating high school and they never went to college. And the positions weren’t in a call center or customer service-related.

      1. Felicia*

        Was this recently? Because at least around here, in the past 5 years or so, there is no such thing as an entry level office job that doesn’t require a degree of some sort. Most of them require experience too, which is ridiculous. But I have looked at hundreds of entry jobs about 3 years ago trying to find one, and there was literally no such thing as an office job that didn’t require a degree.

        2. Natalie*

          I’ve actually been really surprised at how many office jobs I’ve seen during my recent search that don’t require a college degree. It seems like maybe the tide is turning back on that one? I hope so.

    18. Traveler*

      The short answer is, you don’t.

      We put a lot of pressure on 18 year olds to figure their stuff out because they are adults, and they are, but because they are adults they have to make their own mistakes. She will go back if and when she is ready. Let her shoot higher if she wants. If she can’t get it, she’ll fail and learn she has to scale it back. Better she drops out and makes mistakes now than half-arse her way through a degree and come out with a useless degree and bad grades. I knew a lot of kids that did this because not going to college was never an option, and they are worse off for it. They’re stuck trying to figure out what they actually want to do with their lives in their late 20s when a lot of things are set and they don’t have the money or time for another degree.

    19. tango*

      My daughter was a decent student in high school but never much motivated to put in extra effort for better grades. She did a few years of college and absolutely hated every moment of it that wasn’t social/fun/party related. I had to help her with her papers, constantly bug her about studying etc. Well she got a part time job at a major Foodservice chain that’s in between fast food and sit down dining and ended up dropping out of college. You know what? She loves it. She has days she doesn’t (just like any job) but 2 plus years later she’s been promoted numerous times, is an assistant manager on salary AND bonuses (her last bonus beat mine by a long mile) and enjoys the work. She’s 23 years old and makes pretty decent money if I do say so myself. She’s not a person who wants to sit at a desk, pushing paper or staring at a computer screen all day. She does everything from prepare food, serve customers, handle complaints, clean off tables, order food and supplies and likewise receive items from their suppliers (with associated invoice processing), rotate stock, interview and hire people, do shift paperwork, compute daily/weekly/monthly food, disposables and labor cost reports, bank till audit reports, etc. All the things she does are what my superstar high performing junior in college nephew (who is the opposite end of my daughter in regards to college/studying) calls “MARKETABLE SKILLS”. What irks me to no end is there are probably hiring managers out there who might strike her off an interview list for not having a college degree thinking it shows less dedication and brains than a college graduate with NO work experience.

      1. Xarcady*

        A friend of mine went to hairdressing school after high school, and went to work at her parents’ beauty salon.

        She now owns the business, hires/fires staff, does all the accounting, networks around the city and has made the business more profitable. She helps out women who have their own small businesses by showcasing their work (jewelery, quilts, handbags) in her shop–and gets a percentage of the sales.

        You really don’t need a *college* education to do well. You do need education in the specific areas where you want to work, usually.

    20. Shortie*

      Personally, I did not go to college right after high school and am glad I didn’t. I don’t think I would have appreciated or understood what I was learning at the time. I instead took an entry-level customer service job (not retail) and did a really great job and started working my way up. Honestly, it wasn’t that hard to do a great job. Pretty much “:show up early, work as hard and as well as you can while there, and don’t call out unless necessary” will get you far when you’re young. When I reached a point where I could go no further without college, I continued to work full time and went to school at night. Got the degree and continued to get promotions. Now doing very well.

    21. Anna*

      This is a little self-serving, but you might give her some literature about Job Corps and point her to the FB page. http://www.facebook.com/doljobcorps. We sort of specialize in young people who aren’t sure what they want to do. I mean, we have a lot of driven students, too, but it can be a great program to learn about yourself, gradually take on responsibilities, and figure out how to function on your own. /endcommercial

    22. Carrie*

      This is a situation which in my opinion depends a great deal on the individual. I would agree with other commenters that not going to college at age 18 isn’t necessarily a tragedy, especially if the person doesn’t want to go, has no idea what they want to study, or wants to do something for which a college degree is not required. I also think that it’s a great thing that there are people who actually want to do retail-type jobs–I’ve tried them, and they are so definitely not for me, I have to admire anyone willing to stick it for more than a few months. On your last point, a personal anecdote:

      I went to college right after high school and had a fairly severe existential crisis my second year, which ended in my taking a year off between my 2nd and 3rd years. I moved to a big city and started looking for jobs. The only job I could get was in retail. For me, this worked exactly as you suggest. After working in a chocolate shop over the holidays and then (oh golly!) over Valentine’s Day, I was motivated to return to school as soon as possible and get a degree, any degree, that would get me out of retail.

      Sometimes the people who appear to have direction at age 18 simply postpone their directional crises until later… 18 is in the scheme of things pretty young. There’s nothing wrong imo with letting the young woman experiment with different jobs to find out how much she does or doesn’t like them.

    23. Lady Bug*

      You can’t. She has to figure it out on her own. You can provide guidance and share your own experience, but honestly the lessons that stick are the ones you learn on your own. I have an 18 year old unmotivated daughter, who I love and support emotionally, but not financially. When she wakes up and decides what is right for her I’ll be there to help, but I can’t make those decisions for her.

    24. Anna*

      If you know her well enough to suggest it, I would highly recommend you talk to her about Job Corps. It is an excellent program for young adults who aren’t finding college that compelling, who might want something more hands on, and who need a little space to wrap their heads around being an official adult. It tends to be a great place to learn how to be responsible, and it’s free.

      1. Anna*

        Okay, I posted this because it didn’t look like my original post went through. Sorry about the doubling up!

    25. PinkiePieChart*

      I think the focus on a traditional college as the be-all and end-all of graduation is unhealthy for us as a society. Trade schools are a valid option (and plumbers make really good money!), as is just working.

      Pushing her to go to college will end up with her family out of money and a cranky teenager. It’s really unlikely to make her *want* to go, which is the only way she’s going to do well.

      If she’s not going to school (college, trade school, whatever) full time, she needs a job, any job, as many hours as she can get. Hotels, restaurants, Walmart – if she doesn’t like it, she can change her mind about school, but the job really needs to be required. Also, paying rent/cell phone bills can be a big kick in the pants.

      One other thing to think about is the possibility of depression or anxiety issues. Lack of motivation can mask deeper problems. BUT, you also don’t want to ask that because mental health issues have such a stigma in our society.

      Good luck!

    26. Soupspoon McGee*

      Don’t force her to go to college. Waiting is good for some students. I used to teach college, and the students who struggled the most were the ones being forced to take classes without having internal motivation. They hated the experience, didn’t do well, and their failure become evidence (to them) that they couldn’t do college. On the flip side, I had students starting or returning to college later in life, and they were so motivated and engaged that they learned–and taught others–wonderful things.

      As for what to do now, she has a great opportunity to explore career options. Retail and fast food are options, but so are gazillions of other things. Encourage her to think about what she likes (being outdoors, working with her hands, working with children or the elderly). Lots of industries hire entry-level people (manufacturing and food processing are huge in my area). She can learn quickly whether she likes an industry or a type of work. And, as others have pointed out, she will probably learn how hard entry-level work is.

    27. Observer*

      I have not read all of the responses, but some thoughts.

      Anyone who thinks that forcing someone to do to school is a viable solution has no credibility and should not be allowed to make decisions for anyone. It doesn’t work, it cannot work – and there is no really good reason to try to make it work. You can be a moral, ethical and productive member of society without going to college.

      The people who suggested a full check up and depression screening are on the money. You may want to broaden things a bit, because odds are there is something else going on. But, in any case, you do want to make sure that her lack of motivation is not due to an underlying problem that can and should be dealt with.

      The people who talk about insisting that a child either be in school or working and paying rent have a good point. While I don’t think that everyone needs to go to college, people do need to be doing something productive. Not school? Then gainful employment.

      But really, people need to let her make her own decisions and mistakes. Yo learn how to make decisions by MAKING DECISIONS even bad decisions. You can point out pro’s and con’s. You can advise on ways to go higher while still staying in a field the she’s interested. But, ultimately she needs to make her own decisions.

      Lots of luck with this one.

    28. TootsNYC*

      Maybe ask her: Who would she like to help?

      Then get her thinking about how she can help them.

      1. TootsNYC*

        came back to say: I read a book recently (“Still Room for Hope”); the woman telling her story was going to college but not really feeling it. She decided to become a volunteer with a victim advocacy group, and that moved her to change her major and start taking classes in criminal justice, sociology, psychology, etc.
        Because those classes were taking her toward a skill she could use to turn her volunteer work into full-time, she found them fascinating.

        So, it can be a way to start small. Also, going to the local children’s hospital to read books to sick little kids will give her something to get out of the house for. It’s not income right away, but hopefully her family is willing to let her use her “college years” to figure out how to become a grownup, even if it’s not technically in college.

    29. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t favor telling her one thing and hoping she will discover something else. Although I don’t have kids, I can remember being 18 a little too vividly. What would have helped me is if someone had said. “Don’t take it all so seriously. No experience is ever wasted, go out and have some experiences. Try waitressing/kitchen work/retail/nursing home work/etc. Find out who you are and where your natural abilities are. Build a 1, 2 or 3 year plan. At whatever point your plan ends decide to reassess and see if you want to change course.

      I think a good rule of thumb is if you would not say it to an established adult then it probably is not something to say to someone starting out. I heard it all from “get a job” to “you better figure something out here or else”. None of this stuff was motivational and, worse yet, none of it was informative. Frankly, I lost a little respect for established adults who spoke that way. They seem to have no clue that their comments did not provide guidance or support. It created a distance between us that we never quite were able to totally repair.

      I do agree with saying that people who are not in school should be working and helping out with household expenses. But I think that is one part of the conversation and it can lead into a discussion of how to set and handle goals, plan out your future and so on.

  4. lionelrichiesclayhead*

    I am going to be turning in my resignation letter soon. While I recognize that it’s never an ideal situation to resign without having something else lined up, I’ve decided that the mental and emotional damage I’m experiencing has finally become too much. I recognize that I’m likely not going to find a new job within a short period so I’ve been thinking about what kind of a schedule I should set up for myself during the period that I am unemployed. I don’t want to end up sitting around in my PJ’s all day so I think it’s important to have a game plan during this time. Obviously my biggest focus will be on finding a job, creating cover letters, meeting with recruiters, and practicing interview questions. I’m also planning to devote some time to building my self esteem, confidence, and health back up as well since they have all suffered in the past few years. Volunteering and temp work are other things that have come to mind.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for other tasks I might want to work on or just general thoughts on creating a schedule while I’m unemployed? I’d love to hear what others have done and what types of things you felt helped or what you felt like was a waste of time.

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        Thanks Stephanie. This is definitely a big one for me as I have gained a lot of weight while working at this job and I feel like it’s very important to address my health physically and mentally during this time.

        1. Natalie*

          Now that’s spring, get some of that exercise outside. Doesn’t need to be complex, a 30-60 minute walk will get you a good dose of sunshine and fresh air and get you out of the house.

    2. This is Me Not Being Me*

      Gym or workout routine. Are there skills you would like to learn/study that would help with your job search?

      Are there tasks that need doing around the house, that you could add to your schedule? I can think of a half-dozen things in our household that have not been important enough to deal with, but that would improve our quality of life if one of us had time to address them – scheduling some time for that sort of thing might be helpful.

      If there’s volunteer work (local or online) that would be potentially interesting/relevant, you might also want to go for that, though that becomes awkward if you need to drop it when you find a job and that happens quickly. (The good sort of problem to have, of course.)

    3. hermit crab*

      What about setting aside some time to catch up on some reading relevant to your field? Depending on what area you’re in, that could be trade news, research publications, regulatory updates, etc.

    4. Sunflower*

      Dedicate time to networking events or vow to go to x amount of events a week. Don’t dedicate all your time to job searching. Work out, eat right and make sure to factor in down time. When I was unemployed, I felt guilty if I ever sat around and did noting for a couple hours but it’s necessary to keep yourself sane.

      1. Serin*

        A recruiter on LinkedIn once said that when faced with a candidate with a period of unemployment, he’s looking for self-initiated efforts to improve their skills — “I took a Spanish class, volunteered at the park district to get more experience working with youth, and gave a presentation to my networking group to build my public-speaking skills” type of thing.

        1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

          This is a great point and one I will definitely put into practice.

    6. Retail Lifer*

      I was bored out of my mind when I was unemployed a few years ago so I volunteered at a no-kill animal shelter. I had always wanted to but could never find the time. It made me feel better about myself because I was helping, and it also gave me something to stick on my resume in between jobs. If animals aren’t your thing, I’m sure there’s a volunteer opportunity out there that aligns with your interests.

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        I’m definitely planning on getting some volunteer hours in. I already volunteer doing river cleanup etc at my local National Recreation Area and I’m planning to get more involved while I’m out of work. The good news is that they have a big need for volunteer help inside their offices so it will be a great way to keep my work skills fresh. Thank you!

        1. land of oaks*

          good plan! The other good thing about volunteering with organizations that have a large volunteer base is that you meet other people who also care about the same issue, and that can actually lead to job related networking.

    7. BRR*

      Set your alarm during the weekdays. Get dressed, shower, be put together. Even if you’re just sitting around, do it in jeans, not PJs. Don’t forget to take time to heal.

      1. chewbecca*

        I totally agree with this. When I was unemployed, I made a rule for myself that I wasn’t allowed to eat lunch without having first showered and getting dressed. It didn’t matter if I then spent the rest of the day sitting on the couch watching awful Hallmark movies (this was around Christmas, so there were plenty to choose from) and job searching online. Having jeans on helped me keep in a more active frame of mind.

        For what it’s worth, I also had this rule when I worked from home. I tried working in yoga pants one day and just felt off the entire time.

    8. Future Analyst*

      Reading. Even if it’s not directly related to your field, read the news, read books, read anything and everything. Keep in mind that when you eventually land interviews, you may be asked about what you did in the meantime, and while I completely agree with others that working out is crucial to remaining engaged in the world, I don’t think that’s quite what the interviewer is asking about. Have a book or article or news event in mind to discuss, if for no other reason than to show you’re both interesting and interested in the world.

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        A really great point. I will make sure to read and remain engaged in the world around me, near and far.

        1. Mints*

          Yes, book clubs and Meetups in general for free activities that get you out of the house and talking to humans. Especially humans that meet you with a blank slate and not know you as “Lionel Richie who hates her job”
          (Besides all of the good professional advice here)

    9. Partly Cloudy*

      I agree with workout routine. I wish I’d done that when I had 6 weeks between my last job and current job.

      To be more specific, you could set a schedule kind of like this:
      9am – 12pm: job hunt online
      1pm – 3pm: set meetings with recruiters
      3pm – 5pm: work on cover letters, interview prep, etc.

      Perhaps having blocks of time dedicated to specific aspects of job-hunting will help you both feel more productive and actually get more accomplished than just kind of winging it.

      I also highly recommend spending ONE day (the first one after your last day at your current job, probably) in your PJs, eating junk food and Netflix bingeing. It will help you unwind from the job you’ve just left and help clear your mind. Plus, it won’t be as much of a temptation if you just get it out of the way.

      Also, think about making dentist and doctor appointments, scheduling oil changes, etc. for your downtime so you don’t have to worry about taking time off from a new job for that kind of stuff.

      Good luck!

      1. Demanding Excellence*

        Several years ago, I found myself unemployed for about six months. I was in a similar situation to the OP (mentally drained, emotionally bruised, etc.), so it was a bit of a relief to be out of there. I was living with my parents at the time, so I didn’t have to worry about living expenses/rent either, which was a huge blessing.

        I’m a bit of a planner, so I found that having blocks of time carved out for particular things really helped me. I’ve always been active, but it became more of a priority during this time. I went to the gym M-F for a solid hour/hour and a half.

        I ended up getting a great job in an industry that I was excited to break into and moved to a city I really liked. I firmly believed that by being diligent in my job search and other aspects of my life helped me get that particular job.

        Having a plan of attack/action is the best advice I can give. Good luck and happy healing.

      2. CC*

        I would personally not schedule 9-5 for job hunting. I mean, unless you’re applying for fresh-out-of-high-school minimum wage jobs (and even if you are) there probably aren’t enough relevant job posts to fill all that time. I find it a huge downer and motivation killer to say I will spend hours every day job hunting, then burn through all the job posts I find and all the industry-specific business directories and having nothing new come up after that. Now what do I do with that time? (The more specialized you are, the smaller the pool of companies and the faster you hit this point.)

        If you are finding new relevant job posts on the boards every day, then schedule a few hours every day, and also schedule a few hours for going outside and doing something fun, and a few hours for some sort-of work, like volunteering or taking EdX or Coursera classes, or other things like that.

        1. Partly Cloudy*

          Oh, I agree! I wasn’t suggesting that OP spend 40 hours per week just job hunting. The point of my post above was blocking off time for specific tasks in order to prevent getting overwhelmed by the big picture.

    10. Seal*

      Good for you! I did the same thing for a the same reasons in 2001 and it was far and away the best thing I’ve ever done for myself. I had been planning to leave for months and finally turned in my letter of resignation the day I was passed over for a promotion I had been promised. Nothing like making a statement!

      Since I quit at the beginning of summer, I planned to take a few months off before job hunting to decompress and get my head back together after years of working in an abusive environment. I spent my time biking, writing, taking improv and coding classes, and deep cleaning and painting my apartment. I set a schedule for myself and made a point of getting up fairly early and doing something every day rather than laying around in my pajamas. After a few months I took a terrible temp job, which kick-started my job search. Six and a half months after I left my old job, I got a new job with the same organization I left, but in a different department with a much better salary and far more responsibility. From there my career took off.

      Based on my experience, I’d suggest that if possible take some for yourself before you start your job search. It will put you in a better frame of mind once your job search gets going. Good luck!

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        Thank you so much for this supportive comment! While I can’t take too much time off before I dive deep into job hunting, I am planning on spending some serious time doing exactly what you outlined above before and during the job search. I’m so glad to hear that doing something similar worked out for you. It’s scary to quit without something else lined up, and of course goes against all normal advice, but I’m going to make the best of it and focus on self improvement while I’m looking for a better job.

    11. MaryMary*

      I’d suggest looking for volunteer opportunities right away. I was in a similar position as you a couple years ago. I took a month or so to get myself back on an even keel before I started looking for either volunteer work or another job (and I was lucky enough to be able to afford to do that financially). I naively and arrogantly assumed I could find a volunteer without much effort. I thought I could contact a couple organizations and say “I want to help you!” and they’re say, “Great! Can you come in tomorrow?” That is not what happened. Looking for volunteer work was almost like a mini job hunt, and even once I found some organizations who had openings and were interested in having me volunteer, I had to wait until the next scheduled event, or the next volunteer orientation session, or until they started the program again next quarter… It took a couple of months for me to get actively involved volunteering, and in the meantime I had a little too much me-at-home-job-hunting-time.

    12. Shortie*

      Lionel, since I’m considering doing the same, I’m curious how you will frame it when you resign. I’ve been struggling with that because I’ve been with my employer so long that being vague isn’t going to fly, but I also can’t say it’s for a break (although that’s true) because I’ve only been in my most current position with my employer for a couple of years. I fear that would lessen their opinion of me or hurt my reference.

      Okay, now to actually answer your question…I think the suggestions everyone else gave are good ones to exercise, volunteer, do projects around the house, etc. For me, I also plan to decompress for a full 3-4 weeks before I start the job search. That doesn’t mean sitting around, but it doesn’t mean focusing on the home projects and activities that are personally enjoyable before starting on the job search. This may be unwise, so it’s not really advice. Just something I plan to do.

      1. Partly Cloudy*

        I think it IS wise to spend some time decompressing, and it’s fortunate to have the opportunity (time and finances) to be able to do it. Especially if you’re leaving a toxic environment, it takes time to mentally and emotionally recover.

        Last year, I left a job I’d had for many years due to burnout, negative environment, etc. and being vague did actually work for me. “It’s just time for me to move on.” Repeat as necessary. But I can see how that wouldn’t work for everyone, and I’m a little surprised that it worked for me.

      2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        I’ll tell you that I’m really not sure how I’m going to frame this to the general public at work. My boss is aware that my recent promotion to a manager position is not working out and he’s also nice enough to realize that he and the head of my company set me up to fail with the details surrounding this promotion. I’m considering changing industries so if anyone at work digs for details I’ll probably explain that I’m taking some time off to figure out what I’d like to focus on next. While you might not be changing industries, I still think you can frame it as a break to figure out what you are doing next. As far as references go, as long as you have been a good worker and remain professional through your resignation, I think you will be fine. It’s going to be more about how you handle your time there than why you are leaving.

        I really wish you a lot of luck and I would love to hear how things work out for you.

        1. Shortie*

          Good points. Thank you, Lionel. I wish you a lot of luck too and hope to hear how things work out for you as well.

      4. TootsNYC*

        You wrote: “I also can’t say it’s for a break (although that’s true) because I’ve only been in my most current position with my employer for a couple of years. I fear that would lessen their opinion of me or hurt my reference.”

        I’m not really sure why you think that. People take breaks for all sorts of reasons–they’ve been in their -industry- for a while (not -just- the company) and want time to train for a new field; they’ve had a rough stretch at work; their *personal* lives are stressful and leave them needing a bit of freedom from the grind.

        As for hurting your reference–I guess I think most companies don’t bother much with references; they tend to stick to “Yes she worked here, and yes she is eligible for rehire.” Anything else is just too much work, and criticism of you leaves them liable.

        Individuals may give more detail on their own, but most people don’t bother to get vindictive (again, laziness).

        So “time for a change,” or “I want to focus on a few things in my personal life” followed y an absolutely refusal to provide details (just repeat the same exact phrase, word for word; they’ll give up).

    13. Jake*

      Personally, I’d take at least one week, if not two, of “pajama time” simply because once you start looking, it will quickly turn into a full time job, either literally or figuratively.

      This may be the last chance to truly relax for a while.

      Of course that only applies if finances allow.

    14. Dang*

      Find something you like doing and won’t miss. Weekly, biweekly, whatever. I’m into yoga- and I tried all the classes at my gym, found the ones I really liked, and made sure to go to those. Just having to be somewhere helped me a lot in the year I was unemployed.

    15. Steve G*

      Why are you quitting with nothing lines up? I was laid off in Dec, then started horrible job I voluntarily quit…so now have no unemployment. I’ve spent about $10K in the 3 months I’ve been unemployed. I am sure I could have made budget cuts, but my food budget is low, its the standard car/insurance/gas/electric/internet/rent/mortgage stuff that is killing me. + I felt I had to buy some items along the way (new furniture, new trees for garden, revamping my aquarium) because I’d never have time to spends days doing the garden, etc. while unemployed.

      I live in NYC and was a Sr. Ops Analyst and my resume is all accomplishments – successfully fought regulatory penalties, upsold big accounts into other programs, managed a record # of equipment install projects in 2011, built all of our excel templates and cash processes for a startup branch, represented our company at regulatory meetings, helping change some rules, grew revenue a few hundred thousand dollars per year………………and I still find it hard to get interviews. I’m seeing on Linkedin Premium that only 10-20 people are applying to many positions that I also applied to for which I meet every requirement, and I’m oftentimes still not hearing anything back. We strengthened my cover letter + double checked for spelling errors and found none.

      I hope you have a very specific plan + some prospects lines up before you leave, and have much more cash than you think you need. It can be hell, very frustrating, when you devote days to a job, then don’t get it, and have nothing lined up………….

      1. Shortie*

        Not sure if this question is for me or Lionel. Lionel mentioned mental and emotional damage as well as physical health as reasons. For me, it’s similar…mental and physical health. I have never had a break between jobs and really need that before I end up ruining my health. The 3-6 months that I think I need is more than I would probably be able to negotiate as a start date for a new job, and honestly, I just do not have the energy or desire to search for a job right now while I’m working a very stressful one.

        That said, your points about having a plan and cash are well taken. I can swing it financially, even if it lasts longer than I hope. Still working on the rest of the plan, so haven’t pressed the button quite yet…

    16. PinkiePieChart*

      Volunteer somewhere, preferably something that would further your career, but really anything will do. Public libraries almost always want help. If you like to garden and there’s a farm or arboretum nearby, you could ask them.

      Online classes are good. There’s a lot of free stuff out there.

    17. mutt*

      If you tend to get a little disorganized/messy when you’re relaxing, check out UnF*ck Your Habitat – there’s a blog and an app. If you don’t mind a little bad language, it’s a great way to stay motivated to keep your space clean.

    18. Andraste*

      If there is a hobby or skill you are wanting to develop, I would also suggest taking a little time to work on that as well. That way even if the job search isn’t going well, you’re doing something where you have measurable project and tangible feedback of something that you are getting better at. I quit my job as of yesterday to get out of a toxic environment and will be studying for the bar exam in the next few months. So I’ll have studying to fill my time, but I’m also going to try to incorporate more time to cook and do yoga into my schedule. Cooking and yoga are both things that relax me and that I can feel myself getting better at, and I think it will be good for both of us to have outlets like this while we are unemployed.

      Good luck to you! I hope this all works out well. :)

    20. Not So NewReader*

      Since job hunting can be draining make sure you have smaller things going on that you can have success at. You have mentioned exercise. A friend said that he went to the Y everyday to work out first thing. That way, not matter what went on during the day he had one successful thing for the day already under his belt.

      Also consider reading a book or two (do not wallow in this stuff, though) about toxic workplaces and toxic bosses. Take your time picking out the book. Chose something that resonates with you well above the other books you have looked at. Knowledge is power- learn something about how to deal with toxic behaviors or how to spot toxic people sooner.

  5. Seashell*

    I received a message on LinkedIn from an HR manager, telling me that she and someone else at their organization saw my profile and thought I’d be a good fit for their open position. I’m at an association and this is for another association in the same city. I’ve been in my current position for a year and a half and I’m not looking to leave but the job title sounds interesting and like something I’d be good at. Do I respond? If I agree to a phone call and don’t want to interview, am I wasting their time and burning a future contact? Not sure what to do because this is my first time being approached like this. Is it OK if I ignore it? Can’t help thinking that if I got this message in fall 2015 I’d be more eager to respond.

    1. NYCRedhead*

      I don’t see that there’s any harm in having a phone call. If it isn’t the right position or time, neither of you have invested much effort, so I can’t imagine a bridge would be burned. In any event, I wouldn’t ignore it. You could simply say you aren’t looking, but you thank them for reaching out.

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      I think it can’t hurt to respond and say you’re not actively seeking a new role, but you would be open to having a conversation and learning more about it. You never know where the conversation might lead you — and maybe their hiring timeline is such that you wouldn’t start til closer to fall 2015 anyway!

    3. This is Me Not Being Me*

      It would be a waste of your time and theirs if you absolutely didn’t want to leave no matter what, but if you’re curious and it just has to be stellar to pull you away, it might be worth it. Just be clear with them that you’re not strongly looking to move, but are curious, in that case.

      Or if you really don’t want it – either ignore it and hope that (like most such contacts) they expect to be ignored, or maybe just reply and say you’re not looking at this time and don’t want to waste their time, but that when you do next look, you’ll keep their organization in mind because it does sound interesting? Or something like that.

    4. Sunflower*

      You’re overthinking this a bit. I would respond and be upfront- say you’re not actively looking but you’re interested in learning more about the position and the company. If you decide it’s not for you, just say so. People inquire about jobs all the time and end up passing on them with no bridges burned

    5. BRR*

      You sound open to it. I would take a phone call to discuss it. If you don’t think it will be your cup of tea say, “I really appreciate you contacting me about this position. At this time I don’t think it’s the right fit for me but I will be looking in the future for opportunities at your organization. I wish you the best of luck in filling this position.”

    6. AntherHRPro*

      It never hurts to take a call. Even if it turns out you are not interested right now, it can be a great networking opportunity.

    7. Michele*

      It is just a phone call. It isn’t like they are flying you out, putting you up in a hotel, and having you meet with everyone in the department. Spend half an hour and figure out if they have anything interesting to offer.

    8. TootsNYC*

      Nope you will not be wasting their time and burning a future contact. No sane manager assumes that the candidate is automatically going to want the job or be obligated to take it. And if you don’t want this job, they’ll probably have other jobs in the future you might want, so it’s never a waste for them.
      Especially in a world in which the talent pool is circumscribed, good managers value getting to know the people they might hire three or four years down the road.

      Just be honest, but overly, actually. Don’t tell them you’re not interested until you’ve really explored it. Because, for one thing, you never know… (and, neither do they; they may not want -you- once they interview you; or they may not want you -now-; or someone else might beat you out)

      Then, if you do decide it’s not the job for you, simply say that: “I’m afraid this is not the job for me right now. But I want to thank you for reaching out–I’ve really appreciated the opportunity to get to know your association, and to introduce myself to you. Maybe one day in the future we’ll get a chance to work together.”
      If you want to share the reason (“I’m getting quite a bit of supervisory experience where I am” or “The commute is easier here, and right now that’s important” or “I enjoy the customer contact I have here” or even “I feel that in a couple of years I’d be more qualified for your job”), it might be useful. But it’s by no means required. “I want to stay where I am right now” is totally fine.

      (and this: You may end up saying to your boss, “I met Senior Manager at the other association once–maybe she’d be good for that higher level position that opened up way over my head. I was impressed with her.”)

  6. NYCRedhead*

    I am fairly new to LinkedIn, and I have gotten invitations to connect from people I don’t know who work in the same field. I will accept invites if I know the person, their reputation or their organization, but what about accepting invites from virtual strangers? I have heard arguments on both sides about it: on one hand, that it is an endorsement and on the other, you never know who you might need to know. What do you folks think?

    1. Alex*

      My rule of thumb is if I have no clue who they are, I don’t have anything to do with their organization or industry, and they didn’t send me a message of explanation, I don’t connect.

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      There two very distinct camps on this one, with very valid arguments on both sides. I consider myself an “open networker,” meaning I’ll connect with anyone on LinkedIn. The reason I do this is because it expands my own LinkedIn network so that someone who may not have been a 2nd degree connection that I may want to get in touch with, might now be a 2nd degree connection thanks to some random LinkedIn request. You never know who someone else knows.

      I also suspect that very few people are going to consider a LinkedIn connection any sort of endorsement on my end or theirs. Connecting with someone just means you’ve connected with someone — not that you can speak to the quality of their work.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I never accept an invitation from someone I’ve never met. I also don’t accept random invitations from people I barely know or from people I don’t like. I use LinkedIn as a networking tool, but in my opinion, networking requires a personal or professional connection beyond social media. For instance, I will connect with people I’ve met and spoken to (however briefly) at a conference, but I won’t connect with someone simply because they attended that conference.

    4. This is Me Not Being Me*

      As a viewer, I figure “who are they linked with” on LI is _not_ a metric of the person at all. It just means they’re networking. It’s who they reach out through and who speaks for them that may influence.

      In other words, I don’t think it’s an endorsement.

      Myself, I will add people I know casually or have barely worked with. I don’t usually add total strangers, even if they work at my company, because I don’t see what value they would add in my attempts to reach out. I can…get a foot in the door…through this person who can’t honestly say they’ve ever talked to me or seen my work. You know, I can also just apply/email for that purpose.

      But I do know others view it differently and may network more broadly. Different styles and approaches!

      (But do NOT add recruiters unless you want your current employment to wonder if you’re desperately trying to jump ship. Just saying.)

    5. Retail Lifer*

      I add almost everyone that requests me to. I’m not an active Linked In user (years later, I still don’t see the value in having a profile except for the fact that I’m SUPPOSED TO). It’s not like adding a stranger to Facebook who can now see me complaining about work or that now knows I’m going on vacation. I figure if my network expands enough that one day my profile will be of some use to me.

    6. College Career Counselor*

      I get a lot of requests to connect from students–if I haven’t had a conversation with them, I don’t do it. I do other contacts similarly: I must have met them, had a conversation/interaction (that I recall or am reminded of), and/or been referred by someone I know/trust.

    7. Dan*

      I’m a bit selfish in this regard, but if I’ve never met the person, and they have nothing to offer me, I don’t accept. That basically means I’ll accept invites from people in my industry, but not college kids.

    8. BRR*

      If I can figure out why I accept. So fellow alums from my program or people in the same field etc. After a certain amount of time (usually a couple weeks) if they don’t reach out I de-connect (what’s the term?).

    9. Daydreamer*

      If someone asks to connect and I don’t recognize their name, and they only send the generic “I’d like to connect with you” message, I’ll send them a response saying “I don’t recognize your name. Have we crossed paths professionally?”

      Sometimes I get a great response, and we end up having a good conversation about professional development. Even if we don’t have common connections, I’ll add them. If they just say they saw my title and where I work, and thought they’d ask to connect, I will ignore the invitation. And if they don’t reply at all, I ignore them.

    10. AntherHRPro*

      I accept connects with most people as it broadens your own network and you never know when a name and contact information may come in handy.

    11. LovingTheSouth*

      I think it depends on the type of job you have. I have a global business development role. My job is to get my firm’s services in front of people who don’t already know us, so I accept any invitation that comes my way because you never know how that connection might help in the long run. I also send invites to people I don’t know but who work at firms or hold roles that are important to my firm. I have more than 3000 contacts and I can honestly say that I have made sales and built new relationships through an unknown LinkedIn request. As mentioned above, it might put you closer to someone you didn’t know before. It might give you contact info you’ve been trying to get. It might alert you to a company you didn’t know existed. I also scour the job changes each day. If someone I know moves to a firm I’ve been trying to connect with, I now have a reason to congratulate him/her and ask to have lunch at their new office next time I’m in the aea. I keep close tabs on what our clients are doing as well and it’s often through LinkedIn that I learn that a main contact has left his/her firm and I need to jump on it to make sure we don’t lose that firm as a client. So in a sales/business development role it’s invaluable to build your network as large as you possibly can. If I had a finance, planning, logistics or other non-sales role, I don’t think it would be as useful.

  7. Nethwen*

    What are the professional conventions on giving unsolicited recommendations for people applying to jobs? That is, if one of my staff is interviewing at another company and I want to support him, what is the professional norm for telling the other company he’d be a great hire?

    1. fposte*

      Well, you’ll probably be asked for a recommendation if he makes it that far. Outside of that process, I would only reach out to somebody I already knew or had a connection with at the company (or if they’d openly sought wider feedback, which can happen with some roles).

      1. BRR*

        As usual I agree with you. If you know someone reach out. But don’t cold call a recommendation unless you’re someone like the president or Stephen Hawking. If you do it could hurt their chances. I would find it weird that some coworker was referring a candidate.

    3. HigherEd Admin*

      Do you know anyone at the company where he’s interviewing? We recently had someone apply for a job in our office (I wasn’t on the hiring team), and I got an email from someone who works with that person currently, and who I know vaguely, to provide a recommendation. I forwarded it onto the hiring manager, and thought it was a nice gesture.

    4. Satsuma*

      Surely you would approach the person that you want to recommend. Tell them that you would be happy to provide a reference and would have nothing but positive things to say. They can then put your name forward at the appropriate time.

      1. fposte*

        Though I will say there’s a place for communication outside of this sometimes, too. I’ve had former employees emailing me when somebody they know will be a candidate here; there’s a lot of volunteerism in the field, so often those candidates wouldn’t be using my former employee as an official reference.

    5. TootsNYC*

      I really only do this if I know someone at the target company who is the hiring manager or who is very close.

      And I pretend I don’t know they’ve applied. I email and say, “I heard you’re looking for a Widget Editor. Have you gotten a resumé yet from Sally Smith? She worked for me at XYZ and was really good, and I know she’s looking. Just in case you haven’t, I’ve attached her resumé. Let me know if you need any other info.”

      But I only do this for people I would absolutely go to bat for, and if I have some sort of link to the person in the company.

  8. Katie the Fed*

    I’ve just gotten promoted and have a whole new bunch of people to deal with, so I’m sure I’m going to needing lots of good advice. First issue – has anyone ever dealt with an employee who just doesn’t present herself professionally? I have a late-20s employee who frankly comes across ditzy when she talks to colleagues or clients.

    She giggles, shrugs, uptalks constantly, seems a little flirtatious, etc. Other people have described her as seeming like she’s in a sorority chapter meeting, and I can see where they get that impression. Basically – her demeanor does not instill confidence in her abilities at all. I know I’m going to need to take this on as a coaching issue, but where do I start?

    1. Alex*

      That’s tough!! I don’t have an advice but I just want to thank you for planning to coach her on this. I wish I had had someone to teach me how to speak more eloquently in meetings earlier in my career. Not sure if this is helpful, but I realized how I sounded when I watched a recording of myself having a web meeting. I’ve been trying to emulate other people that I admire since then.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I hate, hate listening to myself. I don’t sound “like myself” and don’t like the sound of my voice. That said, I recently recorded a meeting (where I thankful didn’t talk much) but noticed I was shouting.

        I think it is because my computer mic is not near my face and also I has trouble hearing others. I have been making a conscious effort not to over-project/shout and think I am doing okay because I am speaking more softly and no has yet said I am speaking too softly.

    2. Libonymous*

      I just got promoted, too! I need lots of help, too. Starting with my second-in-command is not to be trusted but I don’t have documentation to do anything about it and he’s smart enough not to be subversive when I’m around.

    3. LBK*

      I might actually look at the letter on here from the manager who had to speak to an employee about her hygiene. That would probably be a good base for framing the conversation since they’re both subjects that are kind of uncomfortable to bring up to someone’s face.

      1. BRR*

        This was my thought too. Maybe do the “I had somebody give me this advice” thing. Also if she’s good let her know she has the potential to go far.

        BTW congratulations on the promotion.

    4. CrazyCatLady*

      I still struggle with being like this at times – people have told me that I seem ditzy when they first meet me and are always surprised at how intelligent I eventually seem. For me, it’s lack of self-confidence and nervousness. I don’t know if that’s the cause for everyone but if that rings true for her, maybe point out how capable, intelligent, whatever she is (as long as she actually is) and let her know that her mannerisms can make her come across to others as less capable than she is. (I almost ended this sentence in a question mark – even uptalking in writing!)

    5. fposte*

      Do you folks have access to any kind of coaching services, or is this all on you? Is this something that bugs you, or is it a problem that you know has hampered her progress or productivity?

      If it’s on you, you know the big rule here: be specific both about the behavior and the desired change. If it’s a bugs-you rather than problem thing, ask if she’d like some feedback rather than just telling her to change. I also think that with this kind of behavior it’s good to have several positive models higher up than she is as contrasts–“See how Lucinda responds when asks a question she doesn’t know the answer to? She says ‘I don’t know’ rather than shrugging.”

      And, of course, be sure to praise the stuff she does well at her work so you’re not just talking about this with her.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        No coaching services, unfortunately. And it bugs me, but it’s something that several other people (senior to me) have brought to my attention – before I even started.

        What I don’t know yet is this – is she actually really sharp and just presenting herself badly? Or is she not all that capable? Right now I can’t actually tell.

        1. Businesslady*

          Congrats!

          I got some similar feedback early in my career, and while I wasn’t thrilled to hear it in the moment, I’m really grateful to my boss(es) for speaking up.

          The way it was framed for me was, “you have smart things to say; you just need to make sure they’re getting across to your audience.” Have her focus on speaking slowly and deliberately–and assure her that, while it feels unnatural at first, it’ll become more of a habit over time.

          Maybe you can find some TED Talks or similar online presented by women whose manner isn’t entirely different from hers, but who come across as more polished? There’s a really great one on women/body image by a Northwestern prof named Renee Engeln that might be a good model (although the content might introduce weird complications to the conversation).

          And of course, if she can’t take the feedback to heart, then you can start investigating whether or not the problem is actually a lack of “there” there.

        2. fposte*

          It might be worth waiting until you do know, then. Because if she’s not good at the actual job, her presentation is beside the point.

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        I second this – congratulations on the promotion!
        Are you back up to speed after your health issue?

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’d frame the whole thing as gravitas –articulate it that way as one overall theme to her and then talk about the ways you see it manifest (so that you don’t appear to be nitpicking a bunch of small things).

    9. Muriel Heslop*

      I had this issue with one of my interns who wanted to stay and grow with the company. I asked her in for a sit-down to outline her goals and plans with the company. It then gave me the opportunity to outline for her what I needed from her for that to happen. And we went over it more than once. It was a tough road and we never made it as far as I would have liked, but she has moved on and is thriving in her new field.

    10. LQ*

      One thing that’s worth telling her is that if you (or someone else) asks her to estimate or give a professional opinion on something, they know it isn’t a 100%, so it is ok to be confident in that and it will help the person she’s giving the information to signficantly.

      I have a tendency to over-hedge my bets on these things. I might be 99% certain about something, but I’ll focus on the 1%. My boss once told me that if she was asking for my opinion or guess she wanted confidence as long as I was 75% sure. That changed my stance on that a lot.

      Also, please please please don’t encourage the giggling. I have a coworker who nervous giggles when she screws up. It is incredibly frustrating. It might have been cute when she was 15, but she’s like 50 now, it’s not cute, and it makes me think she’s not paying attention. (Which might be the thing to call to her attention, when you are giggling, I’m not sure you’re paying attention to what I’m saying, if you can focus and let me know that you understood I’d appreciate that.)

      1. Windchime*

        I wholly agree with you. We had a woman who was pushing 50 in our department who would laugh at EVERYTHING anyone said. “The TPS reports are done. HAHAHAHAH!!!!!” She said it was a nervous habit, but it was really off-putting. Customers would complain after meeting with her that she was ridiculing them because she would laugh at everything they said.

        It will really help your employee if she can get this under control now. It’s not cute; it’s just annoying.

        1. Fish Microwaver*

          I work with a woman who talks really loudly and lets forth these massive belly laughs about everything. We work in a highly specialised call centre and deal with people’s health so the laughter is often inappropriate. I don’t like it in the background of my calls and the loudness gives me a headache.

    11. Darth Admin*

      I think you could start with the most “fixable” thing, if that makes sense. Like, if she’s shrugging in meetings when other people talk, you could say “Hepzibah, when you shrug in meetings, it gives an impression that you are not engaged and do not care about what others are saying. This doesn’t help your professional image and will make people less likely to trust you on assignments.” And then see what she says?

    12. aliascelli*

      If after you talk to her she’s open to more development in that area, a local Toastmasters club might be a good fit. Having more presence and less, er, stand-up is something I’m working on in my speeches.

      1. AnotherFed*

        Many gov’t offices have public speaking training courses available – can you look into sending her to one of those, then encouraging her to join the local Toastmasters? I got sent to one of those multi-day “how to brief” classes when I was a new hire, and was surprised at how much was about all the little things, especially non-verbals, that either torpedo you or reinforce the image of technical authority. Something like that might be very helpful to her.

    13. Mockingjay*

      What about a practice presentation? My Government lead brings in interns every summer – he’s a good mentor. At the end of their stint, they have to do a brief on their accomplishments to HR and agency bigwigs. He has them practice their presentations in our weekly internal meetings. We give them lots of feedback: simple things like posture and facing the audience, or pacing PowerPoint slides while speaking, to handling the nerve-wracking open Questions and Answers session.

      Since she’s a regular employee, I’m not sure how to suggest a practice session for her. I would look for internal meetings and tasks that offer opportunities to demonstrate professional courtesy and responses. If you have regular meetings, she could be the facilitator, or given some role to brief others. Does your agency have a Toastmasters group? Could clear speaking skills be listed as an employee development goal?

      I think, in time, this problem will go away. People tend to emulate their environment. If she is surrounded by professional demeanors, she will pick up the same as she gains experience.

      And congratulations on your well-deserved promotion!

      1. Meg Murry*

        Could you make all your staff (or at least the younger/newer/staff that need it) do presentations and critique each other? I went to a training class where we had to prepare a 5-10 minute oral presentation on the topic of our choosing (we could have handouts or visual aids, but they wanted to focus on the spoken part, not writing a powerpoint – which is a whole separate topic). We gave the presentation first, were videotaped and were critiqued by our other classmates anonymously. Then we talked a little about effective presentations, watched some “good speaker/bad speaker” presentations, and were given 2 hours to go eat lunch and read over our feedback and watch our videos and self critique, then we came back and gave the same presentations again and were taped again.

        Everyone is always amazed to see themselves on video, and see what kind of habits they didn’t know they had, like saying “um” 1000 times, or shifting from one foot to another, or playing with the pens or papers in their hands, or reading directly off the paper – and the 2nd time around videos were so much better.

        If there is a budget to send her to professional development speaking class that would probably be best, but if not, I think you can probably put something together yourself. She might take the feedback to heart if everyone is telling her she uptalks and giggles, not just you, and if she sees herself on video.

        I’ll link to the course I took, but the link will get caught in moderation, so do a google search for kent state delivering powerful presentations and you will find it.

    14. MaryMary*

      Maybe address it as a communication style issue? Talk to her about tailoring her communication style to her audience. You can tell her that she comes off as very informal, and that when she’s talking about a serious topic some of her speech patterns and mannerisms undermine her message. The public sector is pretty traditional, and she’ll be more successful if she can adopt a more formal professional demeanor.

      For the record, I’m a nervous giggler and I didn’t realize how much of a problem it was (or how often I did it) until my manager pointed it out to me. I’ve very grateful he did.

      1. fposte*

        I like this, and wow, the nervous giggle plagues so many people, especially women. It’s particularly unfortunate during presentations, and that’s when people are most likely to succumb to it.

        1. MaryMary*

          I’m actually fine during formal presentations. It’s in conversations where I get into trouble, particularly if it’s a difficult conversation. I think the giggle is a misguided and not entirely voluntary attempt to lighten the mood. It is probably connected to my people pleasing/nice girl issues. :-/

          1. fposte*

            Oh, that’s interesting that the formality outweighs the nervousness. The nervous giggle is unfortunately rampant in class presentations; as you say, I think it’s a lighten the mood attempt. But it doesn’t really do that anyway, so it can turn into a bit of a tic.

    15. AntherHRPro*

      Congratulations on your promotion.

      It is always hard providing feedback to someone on something that seems personal (dress, hygiene, etc.) and this can fall into this bucket. I would frame the conversation as being about her presence and how the way she presents herself influences how others perceive her. In fact, it can distract people from the content that she is trying to communicate. Be prepared to share your thoughts on what good professional presence should look like. Things like projecting competency, being polished and poised, communicating clearly, directly but with empathy. Ask her who she thinks has a strong professional presence and why. Have her look to model these people.

      The conversation may be difficult, but if she is smart and capable, you could be helping her career tremendously.

    16. Jake*

      I’d address this in a one on one, and point out several male and female examples of exemplary behavior.

      this is exceptionally tough because no matter what you say, there is a decent chance all she’ll hear is “I don’t like your personality, change it” even though that is not even close to the case.

    17. Jen RO*

      Congratulations on the promotion! No advice, but I will be keeping an eye on your thread, because I also have to address something similar.. and it’s not gone very well so far (partly my fault).

    18. Emmie*

      I’d find out why she does this. Her demeanor resonates with me. Sometimes I act that way(bubbly, happy, and friendly, which seems to some like flirting) and your comment makes me reconsider that. I do it because it’s part of my personality, but mostly because I’ve gotten feedback that the other part of my personality (business, focused, intelligent but not in a know it all way) is seen by others as formal, closed, and doesn’t help with networking – according to feedback from managers. How do you find the balance between the two? Not sure, but asking her why she’s like that might be helpful. Congrats on the promotion!

    19. PX*

      Super late to this, but my university had mandatory classes on ‘How to give (technical) presentations’ which were some of the most useful non-core classes we had. See if you can sign her up for something like this? There was a strong focus for us on being aware of how you come across (eg filming yourself and then reviewing it, discussing with other class members how one came across etc), so it sounds like something like this could kill a few birds with one stone for you!

  9. BRR*

    As I have mentioned previously, I’m currently on a sort of pre-PIP due to work quality. I’m working hard and actually doing a decent job. Being on the right meds has certainly helped. One problem I have run into is I have been dinged for doing things the way my boss has previously been telling me to do them. I’m not sure how to bring it up when these situations arrive.
    Now side bar, I know when people are usually to this point it’s usually not fixable. I do think I have a chance because part of my poor performance was being on the wrong set of psych meds and that’s now been fixed more or less. I also know my boss would prefer to not have to fire me because she doesn’t want to have to (but she would) and she would love to not be one person down for the next several months as they hire and train a replacement. I think it can be summed up as she hopes I succeed but since it’s been shaky there are not high expectations for it to happen.
    For example, this week I got dinged for doing something one way. A year and a half ago I did it her suggested way but was told to do it another way that made less sense. I haven’t had to do this task since so it hasn’t come up again until now. This doesn’t happen often but it happens enough where I want to say something, I just don’t know how to say it. I guess I am looking for the polite way of saying, “But you told me to do it this way.” Especially when sometimes her way doesn’t make sense, that’s why she told me to go back to the way I first did things (usually her suggestions are correct, she’s not changing her mind over everything).

    1. Delyssia*

      “My understanding was that your preference was for [process x] in this situation. Has that changed? Or can you explain how this situation differs from one where I should use that process?”

      Also, can you document preferred processes to make sure you’re on the same page with your boss? I’m not sure that would make sense in your specific situation, but if it does, it could be valuable to both of you.

      1. 2horseygirls*

        Oooh, I am SO writing this down and using it!!!

        And BRR – glad you are feeling better! :)

        1. BRR*

          Thanks for your kind wishes!

          My boss said my work was better and asked what I did different. I was like, “better meds.” She doesn’t like talking about medical issues as a CYA move so I quickly moved on haha.

      2. GOG11*

        Oooh, this is good! I use the first part on occasion, but I hadn’t ever thought of the second part (to ask how it differs). It makes so much sense to do so, though.

    2. brightstar*

      My manager does this, and I try to get things in writing when I can. Another tactic I use is phrasing her directions as a question. “My understanding from your instructions was that A was to be filed under XYZ. Has that since changed?” Usually she just shrugs and says she was mistaken and I just have to deal.

      Particularly as you’ve had some difficulties due to your health situation, I’d document as much as possible. Pre-emptively, if given a task I’d carefully go over and at least take notes on what your boss has told you to do.

    3. Artemesia*

      I’d have a catching up conversation with her in which you reiterate your commitment to do a good job and appreciate her coaching (and perhaps note again the med issue if that is public information with her). Then I would say something like “sometimes procedures change over time and a couple of times I have done something the way you instructed me to do it last year and then been told I was in error. For example XXX. I really want to get this sort of thing right; how do you suggest I make sure that procedures have not changed when I am doing something that I haven’t done in awhile?” ‘I want to do a good job, help me’ is usually a good way to approach ‘you are doing a bad job supervising.’

    4. fposte*

      I think you have to weigh this (as you clearly are), because if you say “but you told me to do it this way” about every difference, it’s a defensive behavior and it doesn’t help you. Sometimes this is stuff you have to let go, even if you’re trying to move past a reputation for errors. But it might also be worth initiating a manual or at least a cheat sheet/style sheet that you can run by her for approval and then rely on; if she wants to deviate from that, that’s fine, but it’s clear that’s an update rather than your error, and you’ve also created something proactive and useful.

      I think the only time I’d raise the point is if it was a big mistake that the boss was clearly unhappy about. And even then I’d only raise it if you knew she wouldn’t deny her original instruction or if you had it in writing, and I’d do it not at the time she was drawing my attention to it–then, I’d just apologize and say you’ll be sure to do it the way she tells you. I’d talk to her a little later when the situation has cooled down to say that you had understood her to say you should do it the other way, you want her to know this wasn’t an example of you being distracted, and you’re hoping that keeping a style sheet that she gets to approve will help you avoid such misunderstandings in the future.

      1. BRR*

        The defensiveness was my concern.

        It was a pretty big mistake this time, it rendered my otherwise good work not satisfactory. I’m assuming I can’t bring this up three weeks later?

        1. fposte*

          I think it has to be part of a conversation about something else–if it’s happened again, if you have a plan to avoid it that you want her buy-in for, etc.

          1. BRR*

            I’m going to use Delyssia’s script if the situation arises again. Or preferably a rich, unknown relative dies and leaves me their billions of dollars and I can just quit.

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I don’t know if it will make you feel any better, but in my opinion part of the problem is that you’re being dinged for doing things in a way that is perfectly acceptable (as it was the way it was done at one point), but not the way the current boss wants it done at this moment. Basically, it’s not you. Even if they told you recently, changing the details of many of the multitude of little processes that you have to deal with is a formula for confusion in even the most detail-oriented employee.

      I would probably say something like “I’m sorry, I remember we discussed doing it this way a year ago, and I didn’t remember you telling me to do it that way. Can you send me an email with the full process the way you’d like to see it now, so I can make sure I have the new process down exactly as you want it? Or can you let me grab a notepad and go over it with me now?” But then, I keep all emails like that, and I’m constantly digging them up for reviewing decisions like this. (Not as bad, it’s usually “Hey, why don’t we temper the chocolate before making the spouts?” “I think we considered it, but we decided that it would take too long…[searches “tempering spouts” in Outlook]….OK, here’s the email from last year, we said X.”

      1. Nashira*

        I use this strategy a lot as a way to discreetly cover for some executive function issues I have, related to probably-autism. Even if the procedure has to change, at least I have proof that it used to be another way and I am not crazy.

        My boss values it now, and occasionally asks me to see if I can find the email from 18 months ago about how to sort the lids.

    6. HRWitch*

      I deal with a 2nd level boss that does this constantly. I now send him an email to confirm my understanding of his directions. Then I print the email trail, including his ‘OK’ or ‘No, I want you to do Q, R, S, not R, S, T’ and keep in the work file. Although this can be a major PITA and often seems a waste of time (I’m getting lots of ‘OK’ replies), it has also saved the situation / defused the argument / resulted in a (grudging) apology.

  10. Consultant Mouse*

    For anyone that has been deeply unhappy or stressed out in their job, how do/did you cope with it in the months leading up to your departure? Meditation? Breathing exercises? Calling in sick?

    1. GOG11*

      If you’ve got a clearly defined date for your departure, I can see why it would be difficult to keep your motivation up. However, it may help to focus on using the next couple of months as an opportunity to transition out. Getting together documentation and wrapping up the projects you can puts you closer to your being able to leave on good terms, it can make the time go faster as you look forward to your departure and it can give you some closure. I hope others can weigh in and give you some good advice.

    2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I think it becomes very important to focus on how you are taking care of yourself outside of the job. Exercise, eating the best foods you can afford, connecting/reconnecting with supportive family and friends, not sitting on the couch too much, going to bed on time, spending time outdoors, working on hobbies, etc.

      If possible, it’s also best to find something at work that you can enjoy or at least feel good about and focus on those experiences as much as you can. Even writing down those small moments so you can revisit them later when you are feeling unhappy can help.

      I wish you luck!

    3. Stephanie*

      I drank a lot. Don’t do that. Not alcoholic levels, but I definitely took advantage of DC’s professional drinking culture.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        When I was a teacher, I lived on frozen margaritas. I wasn’t the only one, either. I know a lot of K-12 teachers who spend Friday night drinking off the stress of the week. If parents only knew…

        1. Stephanie*

          My neighbor in DC was a teacher at a Title I school. I was heading home and she’s like “Some of my coworkers and I are having drinks upstairs! Come join!” I did and yeah…they drink. I got like blackout drunk with them.

            1. Ann Furthermore*

              I volunteer one morning each month in my daughter’s kindergarten classroom. I could see her teacher needing Everclear Jello shots (which are the devil, by the way…oh my).

    4. HigherEd Admin*

      I try to think about the person who’s going to eventually come in and take over the role I’m leaving, and imagine that I don’t want this person to ever feel the way I felt at this job. So I try to make the transition as easy for FutureEmployee as possible and put my effort and motivation into creating transition documents. The added benefit of this is that it typically allows me to remember all the good, hard work I put in while I was there and I can try to replace my unhappiness/stress with pride at what I accomplished.

      1. GOG11*

        Oh, this is good! It’s hard to prepare things properly on principle and not everyone is concerned about leaving on the best terms possible, either…but I could totally see this motivating me when I move on next.

    5. Turanga Leela*

      1) Yes to meditation/breathing. I am a fan of the Pranayama app.
      2) Exercise—long runs, circuit training, anything where you have to focus on the workout rather than the office.
      3) Make time to go out for dinner/drinks/adventures with people who de-stress you. When you’re stressed, it’s easy to feel too tired to make plans. Force yourself to schedule things that you know you will enjoy. (This does NOT mean doing social things that you find stressful, like blind dates or big parties if you don’t like them.)
      4) Make room for beauty in your life. Go on hikes or to museums. Listen to music. Read books that inspire you.
      5) Try to make work as bearable as possible. Wear clothes that you like and comfortable shoes (seriously, nothing exacerbates stress like foot pain). Bring delicious snacks and nice coffee so that you have something to look forward to during breaks. Cross things off your to-do list so that you get a sense of accomplishment.

    6. Cupcake*

      I’m going through the same thing, so I’m really paying attention to all of the responses provided for your question.

      I know firsthand how hard this is and it’s not the first time I’ve been through this in a job. In my current company, I’ve been here for 31 months and I really cannot stand it much longer. It’s very difficult to pull myself out of bed and find the motivation necessary to go to work.

      I don’t call in sick or drink to alleviate my pain. Instead, I use a lot of self help, therapy, meditation and doctor-prescribed medication. It’s a way to manage the heaviness I feel each day in my heart, but it’s never easy.

      I’m sending good vibes & positive encouragement your way. From someone who is currently in the same position, I feel your pain and know you will get through this.

    7. AVP*

      I took up running. It helped immensely while I was in a bad work situation, and the minute the situation ended I quit and never ran again. It was great for mental health while it lasted though.

    8. Future Analyst*

      Pray, or say a mantra. (You don’t have to be religious, and the prayer certainly doesn’t have to be religious in tone or nature.) Sometimes the only thing thathelps me calm down is to say “Please help me, I don’t want to lose my sh*t” while breathing in and out at a measured pace. And obviously, that can only do so much if you’re in a state of constant stress. When it comes to it, take the sick day, but don’t spend the day wallowing. If you can, get outside, get fresh air and sunshine, and list off the things that you’re grateful for. Make sure that the sick day is truly restorative, not just a bandaid.

    10. The Cosmic Avenger*

      For me, I have felt much better when I realized that I am going to be gone soon, and I could walk right out if I really wanted to. When you make it your choice, you’re usually more accepting of that option, rather than feeling like you’re trapped in it. You could quit, but if you tough it out you won’t deplete your emergency fund, or have to live on ramen for the next few months, or get evicted or whatever. But you could. For me that was liberating, and it freed me up to give no f***s at all because I could have quit, but I chose not to.

    11. ExJourno*

      Well, let’s see. I drank a lot. I ignored the parts of my job I didn’t enjoy (at least when I could get away with that). I looked for new jobs constantly, often while I was supposed to be working. I used up all my sick days being depressed (which, I mean, is a medical condition… but still).

      Maybe don’t do what I did. Instead, I suggest reaching out to friends and family, stepping up your workout routine, spending more time with your pets — anything to help you remember the good things in your life outside of work.

    12. Bea W*

      All of the above, and keeping my sights on getting out. When I finally did have a real out, I was so much less stressed at that job, because there was a real end in sight!

    13. lawsuited*

      I had a few methods that I used alone or together as needed in the 3 months until I left:

      1. Therapy once per week – I wanted to start dealing with some of the stress and anxiety before moving to my next workplace so I could have a fresh start. It was also important for me to speak to someone who could calmly reiterate my feelings that what I was dealing with was not normal (family and friends got upset on my behalf and then I would feel like I had to comfort them). This was so helpful and so necessary.

      2. Walking outside for 30 minutes when I woke up, 30 minutes during lunch and 30 minutes when I got home from work – Seeing nature and other people gave me a sense of peacefulness and allowed me to reset and recharge.

      3. Being 15 minutes late – A lot of days I wouldn’t want to go in to work, but I knew that it would mean a bigger mess for me to deal with the next day, so my compromise was to linger a little longer when eating my breakfast or putting on my make-up and stealing back 15 minutes from the beginning of the workday to give back to myself. Petty and stupid, but it made me feel better.

      4. Mantras – I had a few mantras that I repeated so often that friends and family started repeating them back to me. A few of mine where “Not my circus. Not my monkeys”, “Fish gotta swim. Jerks gotta jerk you around.” and “_____ falls into the category of Not My Problem”. Make up your own and repeat as needed!

      1. puddin*

        Your #4 reminds me of my current situation. I have to keep telling myself, “This is stupid but it is what is done here. And this is why I am leaving.”

      2. HRWitch*

        Love the mantras! My ‘so bad I’m tearing my hair out’ mantra is “Life is _______, people are __________’. I fill in the blanks to match the current situation, then morph them over 3 or 4 repetitions to what I want it to be: “Life is s****y, people are too stupid to work here” becomes “Life is great, people are invigorating!”

      3. themmases*

        Oooh yes I would be late a lot. At my terrible old job, I started work at 7 or earlier routinely just because it used to be necessary and was what I’d always done. I stopped stressing out about that my last few weeks. No one was there and I wasn’t doing anything that needed to be done right at 7 anyway. It helped a lot.

    14. Lalaith*

      If you already know when your departure will be, maybe focus on what you’re going to do next, and prepare for that. Even if you don’t have a plan yet, maybe brush up on some skills, or learn a new thing that will be helpful to what you’d like to do next, or (if you don’t have a departure date) make you more marketable so you can get out faster!

    15. Jake*

      Run myself into the ground with 70 hour weels until I get so burnt out that I stop doing anything except the bare minimum.

      I don’t recommend it though.

      The only time I’ve been stressed at work is during periods of understaffing that requires insane hours for extended periods.

    16. AntherHRPro*

      Two ideas:
      1.) Take a moment to acknowledge each time you do something for the last time. As in, “this is the last time I will ever have to complete the TPL report for Bob. :-D Yea!!!”
      2.) Focus on the small things that you actually enjoy. Really look for them and acknowledge them. Like your first cup of coffee in the morning, lunch with a friend, the view out the window. It may sound stupid, but when I am stressed this technique really works for me.

    17. themmases*

      I took a ton of time off. I got into grad school around February and knew I would leave sometime in July. I started asking off days here and there before I gave my notice. Between holidays everyone got, several weddings and family things that were truly non-negotiable and that I wanted to make sure were approved before I gave my notice, and a couple of mental health days, I had the nicest summer I could have had under the circumstances without having anything to feel guilty for. Between my birthday in May and my departure in July, I never took a big chunk of time off but I also only worked 4-day weeks. I worked very hard to document everything and train the people who would be taking my work, which was very appreciated, put it out of my mind on long weekends, and no one cared about my time off.

      I also started cleaning my office and transferring files over to people early, a little bit at a time. It made it a lot easier in the end and my office was not only clean, it had that half-empty “last day of school” feeling that I found very calming.

    19. Mints*

      +1s to the exercise and friends

      Also, it’s very nice to have a little emergency fund (and boy was it little) so that you feel like you could hypothetically rage quit and not be completely homeless. It’s a nice little “I could quit if I wanted to” booster

      And not venting. I know, venting is fun while it’s happening, but overall it makes moods worse. Jamie has some good posts on this, that I can’t think of how to find… When you give up venting, you focus on things you like. When people ask about your job, quickly going “Not super, and I’m job hunting. But that’s boring! How’s X?” is
      better for overall forgetting

    20. Aardvark*

      I fined myself whenever I got really angry. I downloaded a free counter app for my phone, and any time I got past a certain threshold of stress/etc. I clicked the counter up by an interval of 2. Every few weeks, I would transfer the amount of money on the counter into my savings account and reset it. I had to disengage and think, “is it worth taking $2 from my day-to-day budget to feel this way?” If it was, I got the satisfaction of quantifying my frustrations, and if it wasn’t, the action of pausing to reflect on the feeling helped keep it from building up.

      …I saved a lot of money during that time.

    21. Ultraviolet*

      I definitely don’t have this all figured out yet, but two things I’m trying to do:

      1) Try to make your commute as pleasant as possible. I know that can be a tall order in some cases! But I found that a non-stressful or even enjoyable commute is a good transition from home (where I’m generally happy) to work (not). If the commute sucks then the abrupt change from home to stress hits me hard.

      2) Get enough sleep. If I’m unhappy at work I tend to try to stay up really late so I can improve the ratio of hours spent happy to hours spent unhappy. But the lack of sleep just makes things worse.

  11. AFT*

    I have a pattern of hating my job and moving on after 2 – 3 years and recently I’ve been attempting to understand more why this happens, as it seems to be an issue with personality. I’ve realized that in every position I’ve had, I have the same pattern – start off really strong, exceed expectations, and then around the 1 year mark, my motivation drops off, and eventually I can feel myself actually being put off by the notion of wanting to do well. So my productivity falls, and I start to dread my job, then I move on to something new.

    I thought maybe it was a boredom thing, but I don’t think that’s it – All of my positions have had lots of change, new titles, new duties, new challenges, etc.

    Any thoughts/advice/tips/armchair diagnoses? I’d really like to nail this so I can start performing again at my job and actually stick things out here.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      My initial thought was boredom until you ruled that out. Is it that you feel a certain level of comfort? (To make a dating analogy, at first you put in a lot of effort to look your best, be on your best behavior, etc. but when you get comfortable, you wear sweats more or stop going to the gym as much). So more security and comfort – like they’ve already decided you’re a high performer and now you can let your effort drop a little?

    2. Beebs*

      Is it always the job itself? Could it be the environment, culture, team, etc. impacting your performance and motivation?

    3. Retail Lifer*

      I change jobs every few years, but that’s because raises are slim to none and opporunities for professional development or a promotion are always nonexistent. I *definitely* get bored with that.

      Even if you’ve had title and responsibility changes, are you sure there’s not something else that’s boring you? It might just be that you’re so used to changing jobs every so often that you’ll get bored regardless. Perhaps it’s because of the jobs I’ve always had, but I really can’t envision myself working for the same company for more than three years.

    4. Artemesia*

      When it is clearly you and not the job it screams ‘therapy.’ Because wherever you go, there you are. Wish I had figured this out earlier in life than I did. I have a young relative right now whom I would like to scream this at — but of course don’t as I watch his bright ambitious self shoot himself in the same foot over and over and over.

    5. Lo*

      I have the same issue, sometimes work related but also sometimes with other things in life (I like that dating analogy that CrazyCatLady used).

      My advice is to conciously recognize this situation and push yourself mentally to move past the block. I think that as you get more secure and start to test the boundaries of “can i slack off all day and still be ok?” and you continue on that path, you mentally sink deeper into the desire to not do anything to address it. But if you start to push back and force yourself to put in the effort you may find that it starts to come back, more naturally. At first you force yourself to complete a task but over time you start to naturally think “I just got to work, I need to do this, then I can relax and read AAM, then I will do x, y, z.” Creating a routine for yourself may allow you to settle into a more healthy and productive schedule, but at first you may need to force yourself to focus and get into the routine.

      good luck!

      1. AFT*

        I’m so terrible with routines but I’m sure you’re right and it would be immensely helpful to me. One of my self-improvement goals right now is more willpower with things like schedules and mental strength. Also you’re spot on with this –

        “”I think that as you get more secure and start to test the boundaries of “can i slack off all day and still be ok?” and you continue on that path, you mentally sink deeper into the desire to not do anything to address it. “”

        This is so accurate. I basically reach the point where I do whatever is needed to not get on my bosses radar and learn to say what he needs to hear and do the tasks that are important to him to keep him off my back, but doing nothing else proactive. I become a bare-minimum employee.

        1. Lo*

          I completely understand! I think that this is something many, many people experience. If you can try to reach out to trusted coworkers/others in your field who you feel will be helpful and considerate, as well as discreet, they may be able to give you some tailored advice, or friends who know your work style also. but in general, forcing yourself into the routine may be a first step, even if it’s a little rough at first. Also, remember to give yourself a pat on the back sometimes–it is healthy and good for you to be proud as you take healthy and good steps!

    6. fposte*

      This does sound therapy-esque to me. I will fire off relevant questions. Do you think that people’s expectations for your performance may have risen based on your excelling? Do you get satisfaction from awing people with your brilliance and lose performance when that stops happening because people get used to you? Do you think you may worry that you can’t keep up with your early standards so you don’t even want to try? More broadly, is there anything about being long-term successful that you have some resistance to? If I say “Oh, AFT, she’s a fixture here, and we know she’ll always come through” do you have reactions other than yearning and delight?

      Just some thoughts. It could also be you just have itchy feet.

      1. AFT*

        Thanks for the thoughts! I do think therapy would be helpful. I have sneaking suspicion there may be some self-confidence issues at play, but I don’t know.

        People’s expectations – Yes I do feel like that. I want to prove myself, and once I have, I feel like the bar is set higher than I’m willing to keep raising. Then I get to the point where I don’t even care that much what people think as long as I can avoid getting in trouble and I can just fly under the radar.

        This is interesting – “More broadly, is there anything about being long-term successful that you have some resistance to?” YES! But I don’t know why. I think I don’t like the pattern of increased expectations. If I do really well, I don’t want that to mean that I have to keep doing better and better. This might be why I think confidence has something to do with it, because if I do my best right off the bat but am expected to keep raising the bar, I’m not confident I’ll do well.

        Really thought-provoking questions! Thank you!

        1. fposte*

          Semi-randomly, this might relate to the “enough” question that I’ve been thinking about lately. If you don’t feel confident about internally judging what’s good enough or doing enough, the slowing down or even loss of external feedback may feel like a measure of your performance even though it’s more related to loss of novelty. And while feedback is important, we all have to develop our own senses of what doing a good job looks like.

    7. puddin*

      It sounds like maybe you enjoy the learning and ramping up portion. Can you incorporate more learning into your work routine? Learn new software, processes like project management, Kaizen, problem solving strategies, change management philosophies and plans, industry or product knowledge…etc.

    8. K*

      I’m curious about why you see this a major issue. Has it been adversely affecting your life overall?

      My mum is very much like this, and she found a career that was tailored to this as a project manager. Each project would last from 18 months to two years,and then she would naturally move on to the next one.

      My own career has been similar. I work in an industry where it’s considered very weird to be in one position for more than a two to three year stint. You go in, do your assignment, assignment ends, you move on to the next one. My successor was hired two years ago, so there’s no option for me to stick around in this assignment even if I wanted to.

      Rather than trying to ‘fix’ it, maybe find a career path where it’s an asset?

      1. Sammy J*

        I second this — why try to fight it and assume it’s a bad thing? There are some industry/career paths where if you stick around it seems like you’re stagnant…I thought it was just creative fields but being in DC for a while I started hearing it from others as well.

      2. AFT*

        Interesting question – no, I guess it hasn’t really hurt me thus far, I’m just honestly sick of the feeling and the cycle.

        Funny you mention Project Management! I recently enrolled in a mini-masters because I had the same reaction you highlighted here – this would probably be the perfect role for me. I’m in sales right now which has some similar elements, but Project Management appeals to me even more because the quota aspect is removed and hopping around would be totally normal. Thanks so much for the response!

        1. M*

          It’s “normal” to an extent. (Long time PM here!)

          The path K is referring to is a contract path, where you’re either hired on as an outside contractor (typically no beneifts, kind of like being self-employed) or employed by a staff augmentation firm/consulting firm and are sent off to companies to manage a project for 6-18 months or so. When that’s done, your firm places you in another company. With this path, yes, it’s very common for you to switch jobs often because you’re hired to work on a specific project. Once it’s over, you go. This path is VERY common in the PM world.

          Or you’re a full time employee of a company in a PM role. I’ve been a PM for 10 years and this is the only path I’ve experienced (I want the benefits and stability and I don’t want to work for a staff aug/consulting firm). I’ve worked for 3 companies in 10 years. Here, you definitely don’t want to be switching jobs every 6 months because, well, you’re an employee. If you’re not a contractor, your resume might get the side-eye (I say might because when I’ve reviewed PM resumes, the 6-18 month stint is just so common that at first glance, a hiring manager might not know you’re an employee).

          1. K*

            Actually, in my mum’s specific case, she was an employee of a company in a PM role, but the company was huge enough (multinational) that she could move around and have new projects and teams every time.

            Best of both worlds, I guess!

            Otherwise, completely agree!

    9. Vanishing Girl*

      Wow! I have the same problem, although my jobs have not changed much while I’ve been in them (or have never changed enough for my liking). I’ve been at this company for just over a year now, and in this position for 7 months. I’m already bored and I’m getting that old familiar feeling again…

      I am wondering if I take jobs that aren’t challenging enough because I don’t want to work more than 40 hours a week and then I set myself up for this pattern. I love the suggestions about finding careers where learning all the time and moving on regularly is part of the process.

      I am going to see what other ideas people have and follow this discussion. Thanks for asking this!

    10. Snowglobe*

      You say that you’ve had new titles & duties, but does that actually mean that you’ve transitioned to a new position within the company (new boss, new department)? I tend to stay at the same company for around 8-10 years, but I post for new jobs and change positions about every 2 years. If you are at the same company, it doesn’t look like job hopping on your resume, but it feels like an entirely new job when you are in another area of the company. I’ve moved from sales to customer service to finance, etc., so it has successfully kept me from getting too complacent.

    11. Cath in Canada*

      Do you see any parallels to this behaviour in other aspects of your life? e.g. do you tend to seek out new groups of friends after a couple of years, new hobbies, new music to listen to, etc? If so, you might be one of those people who’s strongly attracted and motivated by novelty. I have a bit of this myself. For example, even though I have a ton of great music saved my phone, I spend more time listening to music podcasts, because there’s always something new. It’s not that I’m bored, necessarily, with the music I already have – I still like it, I just don’t want to miss out on hearing something new that I’ll like better! Same thing with food and beer – my husband is happy to order the same few things over and over, but I always want to try something new, even though I like the other stuff a lot too.

  12. GOG11*

    My boyfriend started his new job this week and it’s going really well so far! He’s worn a tie everyday and feels better doing so because he looks about 10 years younger than he is (putting him in his teens…) and he is a senior role. A coworker commented on his tie and said that it might not be a good idea to wear a tie when the boss doesn’t. On a separate occasion, his boss joked about his tie, saying something to the effect of, “and we’ll need to talk about that tie!”

    Everyone else wears dress pants and button down shirts…should he give up the ties? Normally, I’d say go with whatever the culture is there, but the reason he is dressing up a bit more is to try to offset the fact that he looks so young and I’m not sure how that impacts things.

    1. Question from Ontario, Canada*

      I’d say on Thursday and Fridays maybe drop the tie, since they’re considered more ‘casual’ days. He could also do a sport coat with a dress shirt and no tie and it looks pretty nice. Also a sweater/cardigan with a dress shirt and no tie looks sharp too. At the same time, my opinion is also ‘rock the tie!’

    2. Fuzzy*

      I would actually ask the boss about this–if it does help your boyfriend when talking to clients then there’s an argument for it, but maybe have him keep one in the office and not wear it on a daily basis? But unless the boss says, “yeah it really doesn’t fit in the culture here, you should loose it,” he may as well wear it.

    3. Future Analyst*

      Unfortunately, wearing a tie when no-one else is may be making him look younger. (Think a little kid who dresses up like dad to look like an adult.) He should lose the tie, and only wear it if/when the situation truly calls for it (client meetings, etc.– IF that’s part of the culture). In situations like this, the only thing that will make him appear ready (senior enough) for the position is the work that he does: he should focus on that.

      1. GOG11*

        I hadn’t thought of your first point, but it’s a really good one. As Fuzzy suggested, I think I’ll suggest that he keep a tie or two in his office for situations that truly warrant it and have him focus more on his projects (he isn’t worrying about his appearance to the detriment of projects, but he may not realize that the work he’s doing will take care of his reputation far more than a tie could). This is his fifth day and he’s managed to get a couple of backlogged and time sensitive projects/tasks/fixes done that his predecessor just sat on, so I think he’s making good progress so far and I can remind him of how far that will go with his colleagues.

      2. Artemesia*

        He may need some wardrobe counseling about how to look authoritative while not wearing a tie. Part of it is quality of clothing and part of it is style. Jeans, a button down or other stylish shirt and a blazer may look more authoritative in an office where ties are not worn much. A lot depends on the fit, quality etc of the clothing.

      3. Jake*

        +100

        As a fellow 20 something that looks like a teenager, please ditch the tie, it looks like he is trying too hard to be an adult.

        Typically after realizing I’m good at what I do people not only quit judging by my looks, but even start thinking I’m older than I am. I try very hard to not let my age or my looks dictate how I handle a situation because that simply draws attention my age/looks.

      4. Jen RO*

        I work with someone who is 24ish but looks 18. Most guys in the company wear jeans and t-shirts – my guy wears slacks and shirts. It does not make him look older – exactly like Future Analyst said, it makes him look like a kid dressed in his dad’s clothes and trying too hard! It’s not a huge deal, but as his manager I can see that it’s not an isolated faux pas, he *is* in fact trying too hard in all aspects of his professional life, which has led in the past to him giving wrong information out of a misguided desire to help… Overall, I get the feeling that he thinks he works in a different company – one where looking like a businessman is looked upon more favorably than actually knowing what you’re doing. Unfortunately, he ended up with jeans-and-tshirt me as a boss, and I am soo not impressed :)

        1. Jen RO*

          Uhm, and I’m not saying your boyfriend is any of that. Just that yeah, a tie might be having the opposite effect. I’d lose it, especially if he’s gotten feedback in that direction.

    4. LisaS*

      Maybe lose the tie but make the investment in better quality shirts/pants? There’s a big difference in appearance between buying men’s shirts at the Gap vs buying them at Brooks Brothers or Pink’s, for example – a sized fit (instead of just M or L) is always better, plus the finer cottons, more careful tailoring and better buttons will make a real difference in how he’s perceived by higher-ups. And with pants, the finer fabrics & again better tailoring will be visible (and more subtle than the tie). I think my dad taught me this, that men might “look” like they’re all dressed alike but there are real differences if you are aware of them. And the shoes of course – he should look at what his lateral colleagues & the higher ups do for shoes, and mimic that…unless the CEO is in flip flops, in which case don’t go that far!

      1. GOG11*

        This is a really good point. We went shopping this past weekend and purchased extra slim fitted shirts (he had one that he knew fit really well so we went to that store and bought more) and some pants as well as new shoes (old ones were ancient). The stuff he wore at his old job was very baggy and they didn’t fit well at all and this has made a big difference.

      2. Michele*

        That is a good point. When I was younger, I didn’t understand why some clothes were more expensive and I couldn’t see the difference. I came from a blue-collar background in a small town and had never really been exposed to those things. Now that I am in my 40s, I see a big difference in the quality of a cheap shirt vs a more expensive shirt.

    5. LAI*

      I work in a field where the dress code is always pretty casual so this advice may not apply to more professional environments, but personally, I would say that if he feels better wearing the tie, then he should continue doing so. My first job out of college was at a university, and I was only about a year older than most of the students I was working with (and younger than some), so I made an effort to dress more professionally than everyone else in my office and it helped me feel more confident. Now that I’ve been working for a while, I don’t do it all the time but I still try to dress more professionally at least one or two days per week just because I like doing it.

    6. Meg*

      My BF also looks quite young and has a senior job. So he grew a beard! Really helps. :)

      1. GOG11*

        He has a beard now, too! He’d never had one before, but decided (partly due to my prodding…) to grow a beard this winter and it’s bumped him into his early twenties!

      2. Fuzzy*

        Depending on the job, beard may not be the right choice. I know people who have been “asked” to shave their beards because it looked “unprofessional.”

        1. Hlyssande*

          I think it might depend on the beard grooming. Well-trimmed and shaped beard? Very nice. Giant unkempt lumberjack beard? Not so much, professionally speaking.

          At least that’s how I see it.

          1. Natalie*

            I personally agree, but it’s worth knowing that some companies are quite anti-facial-hair. At least until the early 2000s you couldn’t have a beard or mustache at Disney (it may have since changed).

  13. BRR*

    Second question for everybody, how do you job hunt while on a PIP (or in my case a pre-PIP)? I can probably schedule a phone interview during my lunch (I am flexible with when I can take it) but my two questions are time off and references. I’m assuming it doesn’t look good for me to take time off right now. Also if I do get fired I get to cash out my vacation time. Regarding contacting my current employer during a reference check, from what I’ve read on here it’s just to make sure you’re not about to be fired. I’m worried that if they say I’m being monitored for work quality and that I could lose an offer. Thoughts???

    Alison, I sent this to you a couple weeks ago, if it’s in your queue feel free to delete this.

    1. Unmitigated Gal*

      Do you have sick time you can take for interviews, rather than vacation? Or, see if you can schedule your interviews before or after work; many places are willing to accommodate that.

      Regarding references, it is not unusual for people not to list their current job as a reference because they don’t want the company/boss to know they are leaving. Maybe you could ask someone you’ve worked with at your current company, other than your manager, to be a reference?

      1. Mz. Puppie*

        Honestly, if BRR is in a performance-improvement situation, even sick time will be looked at askance. They will assume BRR is not really sick. ANY time off during this period will be a big strike against. I think OP is going to have to try for after-work interviews and hope to be able to make that happen (assuming that the original job is worth holding onto and working to keep).

  14. TotesMaGoats*

    Ackkk! Does this mean? I had my in person last week. Went great. Got a call a week later, asking permission to contact my refs, including my current supervisor. I asked for information on the compensation package since I don’t have a salary number from them yet. The rest of the benefits I know and like. The salary number is the determining factor. They know how much I make now via employment application and it being publicly available. If I knew the salary and was happy with it I would move forward with giving my current supervisor up but if the salary doesn’t work, I don’t want to burn bridges.

    Hi Totes,

    I don’t know if HR gave you the attached summary of benefits, but if not, here you go. If you have specific questions, please let me know and I will get the answer. (On the other hand, please feel free to contact our HR office if you prefer.) I would like to talk with you briefly over the phone regarding what you have written, because the situation is different (in a good way) from what we originally understood. I completely understand about your reluctance to contact your supervisor before knowing as much information as you can glean from this process. Yet I’m unable to go too much further before the most important reference is checked. So, we’re both in sort of a catch-22.

    1. Sunshine Brite*

      Did you specifically ask about the salary? I could see a non HR person thinking of compensation package as the benefits.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        I did and he didn’t know what it was.

        I just had a convo with the hiring manager/vice provost. Good conversation. They were seriously under paying the position with the budgeted amount from HR and fought back. He wouldn’t tell me exactly what the new salary is but is going to talk to HR to see if they can get “close” to what I make. Close has to be a couple thousand because I can’t drop more than that. He understands that if I give my supervisor info out and can’t take the job (if offered) then I’d screw myself in current job.

        2. lawsuited*

          The thing is: what does the hiring manager/HR have to lose by telling you whether they can get within $2k of your current salary before talking to your boss? If the talk with your boss goes badly, the deal’s off anyway. If the talk goes well, then you move forward in the process which would have included, presumably, telling you the salary for the position. I don’t think this is a catch 22. I think this is they-don’t-kn0w-what-the-salary-for-the-position-is.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        I think that the vice provost is in the dark with some of this as he’s going to the HR VP for information. Why he doesn’t know what the number is…is concerning.

  15. YandO*

    After college I moved to a large city on East Coast. Three years later I moved back home “to find myself”. Now, it’s 14 months later and I finally think I know want I want. First thing, I would like to move west Colorado, California, Washington, but I care more about the job than a location. I’ve been applying to places and getting some positive response, but they always ask me “why do you want to move” and I never have an answer they seem to be satisfied with. I say I love the area and climate and I have lots of friends in that city.

    How do I approach it? I don’t have a legit reason like: family, partner, etc. There is a health reason that I am not willing to disclose and it only matters a little.

    To be honest, I don’t really care where I go, as long as the job is right in a semi-urban setting with access to beautiful landscape.

    1. Stephanie*

      Oh man, I struggle with this too. Job’s more important to me, too, so I also give probably overly generic answers like “I came to [City X] once and liked it!”

    2. Christian Troy*

      I usually tell people I am more than happy to relocate for the right opportunity and usually mention something specific as to why I would move (for example, “UColorado is a great medical school and would give me the opportunity to gain more research experience.”). I don’t think saying you’d move for a great professional opportunity is a bad reason to move.

      1. YandO*

        I heard a lot that hiring managers worry about the person not liking and leaving quickly to move back?

        I am leaving a lot of family behind, which I guess they don’t need to know. However, they always ask why I moved back home and I usually say to be with family, which is 50% true. But it was a number of things, my job was a dead end and there were no right opportunities for me at the time. With my BF and parents here I was going to take my time and look for a career change. I ended up change my course drastically when my current job came up.

        I feel like that does not inspire confidence in the fact that I am stable and will stay for long period of time, but that’s what I really-really-really want. I want stability and be at a company for a long time. I feel my history says otherwise.

        1. Christian Troy*

          I have applied and interviewed for jobs all across the US and every hiring manager and company is different. Some managers are used to people moving for positions at their company and some aren’t and it freaks them out. I don’t think it’s terrible to say you moved home because you changed careers or that you want to move to Denver for the right job, but I think you have to specifically explain why this is the best opportunity for you and why this company is so amazing. Alison has some posts in the archives about long distance job searches that you may find useful too.

        2. Treena Kravm*

          Ahh I see the problem. How can they tell you “moved back home?” Or are you supplying that information? Don’t tell them that the reason you moved back home is to be with family. You were home, left for 3 years, came back, now you want to leave again. What’s to stop you from leaving in a couple of years to go back home because you miss family? Even though you’re thinking you want stability, that answer does not say so to the interviewer.

          If you can’t avoid them knowing you moved back home for a year, how about:
          “After spending a few years in (east cost city), I realized that I’m probably more suited to the west coast. I’ve taken about a year to really think about specifically where I would want to live, and (west coast city) is one of my top choices. It really seems like the kind of place that I would want to settle down and plant some roots.” This is thoughtful, and addresses their concerns about you leaving while complimenting their city (which presumably, they like).

          And if they don’t need to know the family stuff,
          “I was seeking different opportunities outside my field in (east coast city) and I landed in a position in (hometown) in a drastically different field that I’ve ended up really enjoying. So while I know I’m solid on the field, I know that that (hometown) is not the place I want to settle down in. I’ve known for a while that the west coast was probably where I would enjoy living the most, so I took a year to really think about specifically where I would want to live, and (west coast city) is one of my top choices. It really seems like the kind of place that I would want to settle down and plant some roots.”

          1. Persephone Mulberry*

            Yes to all of this. If they believe you are in your current location because of family ties, they are going to want to hear a really compelling reason why you now want to move away. Treena’s second paragraph script is perfect.

          2. YandO*

            This is so great. Thank you! you really helped me to look/think about it in a different way.

            Moving home is obvious because I went to college here and now have a job in the same city….

            1. Treena Kravm*

              You’re welcome! Keep in mind that it’s not obvious at all! Lots of people go to college in a completely different city and get a job in that city right after college/later.

            2. Tau*

              Seconding Treena Kravm that it’s not at all obvious from that! I might be getting a job in the same city I did my undergraduate degree. It’s not my hometown, which is actually in a different country and not visible from my CV at all – I went abroad for university.

              (Which, incidentally, also seems to me a decent answer to the relocation question, which I’ve had to field a few times – if you’ve moved around in the past, you can talk about how you never had any problems with that and have always been willing to move for new opportunities.)

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Just say you have visited friends there multiple times and completely fell in love with the area. Honestly, I don’t think anyone truly cares about the answer unless it is something completely crazy, like you moved there because a psychic or your cult leader told you to.

    4. Turanga Leela*

      If the job matters more to you than the area, I’d emphasize why you think the job is a good enough fit for you to move there. The answer to “Why do you want to move?” is, more or less, “Because I’m interested in this job.”

      I’d structure it like this: “This job sounds like exactly what I’m looking for because [X]. I don’t have anything tying me to [hometown], and I love the area where you are because [great city, climate, friends].”

    5. BRR*

      If you honestly know you won’t have a problem living there, I think lying is ok*. “I have some family here” “I have a lot of friends who have settled in this area” “I have been here multiple times and really enjoyed the city” If you can, mention the attractiveness of the specific job/company. Try to also distance where you’re living now if you can do it politely.

      1. Sara*

        I agree with this. Don’t spin an elaborate web of lies, but some exaggeration won’t hurt anyone.

      2. Mints*

        Yeah, I think a little lying is fine here too.

        And whatever the city is good for, say you’d like to “Return to” that thing. (Return to somewhere where nature is closer, Return to a city with better nightlife, Return to a city with more family values, idk). It makes it seem like you know what you’re getting into

        1. Treena Kravm*

          This is really good wording. Anything to show you actually know a little something about the place.
          For really popular places (Denver, Seattle, SF, etc.) I would definitely tell some white lies about why it’s awesome with some research ahead of time. You don’t want the interviewer to ask if you like some famous thing/place in the city and you have no clue what they’re talking about.

          For my current job, I had a Skype interview and had never been to the small city before. I was honest with my now-boss, and told her I’d never been to the small city, but I had googled a little bit and told her I was excited that it had one of the largest municipal parks in the country. She was apparently blown away that someone would research the city, not just the job. I guess most people sort of resume-bomb in terms of location, but I move to a new city every new job I get, so I take the location very seriously. I’ve never said, “Nope, can’t take this job because I don’t like the location.” but I definitely do my due diligence, especially since I’ve never stepped foot in the city until I have accepted the offer and I’m looking for a place to live.

    6. AntherHRPro*

      Typically saying that you are comfortable moving for the right opportunity is perfectly acceptable. The one exception I have found is for folks relocating from the east coast to the west coast. It is such a big move and some employers (mine has experienced this) end up hiring folks who then leave a year or two later to move back east because they want to be closer to family.

      So how to respond to their questions? Still focus on moving for the right opportunity, but stress that you have a strong interest in moving to the west coast for personal reasons (in your case, it is your health). It does not matter what those reasons are and they are unlikely to probe further. They just want to make sure that something is going to keep you there beyond the job.

      1. Treena Kravm*

        Or they never show up! Another manager at my org hired someone from NY for a job in CA and gave her 3-4 months for the move, and then 2 weeks before she was supposed to start, she decided to not accept the job to be closer to family. ARRRGH makes it SO much harder on people who actually WANT to make cross-country moves.

  16. North Carolina*

    Does anyone in the AAM community work in the North Carolina public university system? I just applied for a job I’m very interested in, but am (a) an external candidate and (b) an out of state candidate. I had heard something about it being very difficult to get into NC university roles due to budget freezes and lots of internal candidates shuffling around as the only means to get raises. I would love any insight!

    1. J.B.*

      There’s been a lot of moving around but if I’ve learned one thing, it’s that you can never tell from outside. Don’t worry about the out of state thing, other than expecting to pay your own way to an interview. Good luck!

    2. Anonermous*

      I work tangentially to it and my partner works within it.

      To be blunt, funding is a nightmare. I know universities all over the country are feeling the squeeze, but NC is nosediving so quickly. When I first moved here, I saw quite a few entry level jobs that I applied for and never got. Now that I’m working and have developed new skills, I see fewer and fewer. It’s heartbreaking because NC had a reputation for having a strong public university system. And it still does in many regards, but it’s being cut off at the knees. Professors are fleeing or looking to escape what they fear is a sinking ship. The legislature here seems very aggressive about reducing funding to the college system.

      There were rumors that our university was going to close its medical school. The hospital and university are pretty much the major professional, non retail/construction/manual labor employers here, so you can imagine how nerve-wracking that was to hear about.

      I am not sure being out of state will hurt much, but just be aware that the UNC system is going through a lot of big battles right now.

      1. North Carolina*

        That is heartbreaking! But very good to know — thank you so much for your response.

        The job I applied to had an application period of maybe 3 days, so I assumed that either they had already identified an internal candidate or that openings were so scarce that they received record numbers of applications in a short amount of time.

        1. Anonermous*

          There are still programs that are growing and some groups are working very hard to keep improving the system, but the political climate makes things very difficult. You’re not even allowed to publish anything on sea level rise.

          I live near one of the less prestigious UNC schools and things may be better in the flagship schools.

  17. Question from Ontario, Canada*

    Hi!
    I have two questions:
    1. My husband has been relocated to another province and will report his new job on June 1st. I will stay behind to sell our house and likely join him in late July. How do I inform my current job? Note: it’s a government position and I only started 1 year ago. It’s a place where no one leaves willingly and my boss will be very disappointed. Furthermore, we are starting our major busy season now. Advice?

    2. I have a side job doing basic work for my previous employer, about 5 hours a week. I’m on contract with them and have wanted to end it for a while. I’ve tried meeting up with the managers in person, but to no avail. Do I just send them an email essentially saying “here is my 3 week notice to end this informal contract”?

    1. Yep*

      Yep – your schedule shouldn’t be held hostage to their inability to meet up in person when all you want to do is put in your notice. Good luck!!

    2. Colette*

      I assume you don’t work for the federal government or that if you do, you’ve already looked into transferring.

      If you told your manager you were going to leave and she said, “ok, today is your last day”, would that be ok? Is your timeline firm enough to let her know you’ll be gone at the end of July?

      Is working remotely an option?

    3. BRR*

      1) Has anybody else left willingly, did they work their notice period or were fired? Don’t worry about your boss being disappointed, it’s business. If you can trust them I would let them know sooner so they can prepare.

      2) I would email asking for a phone call.

      1. Question from Ontario, Canada*

        Thanks all!
        1) No one has willingly left in 12 years from my organization. I want to give them as much notice as I can. Also, it’ll be very obvious once the ‘for sale’ sign goes up on our lawn since coworkers live down the street. I wan to approach it like “husband was transferred… I will be here until at least end of June, possibly later…” I don’t think they can just walk me out since I’m union and if I have give a hard and fast end date, it’ll be around July 10th.

        2) I agree, I’ve actually asked for phone calls but the people I work with aren’t very flexible and often traveling for work. I am going to ask again and then call myself to explain the situation. I just have to put in my notice at day job first, since it’s a small town and word will get out quickly so I want to control it as much as possible.

        @Colette: Nope, not federal gov., I actually will be doing my Masters via online studies starting in September (already accepted to a good school). The village where we’re moving to does not have any positions or work available… it has about 8 people total living there, the closest town is more than 1 hour away. Working remotely for my current organization is not an option unfortunately.

  18. Fundraiser*

    Question for everybody, I’m pretty sure there are some development (fundraising) people on here. I currently do prospect research and want to move to a frontline fundraising position. I have two years of experience in my current position at a highly ranked university which makes people impressed ( I know it sounds pompous but that’s just been my personal experience). Before that I worked for 4 months doing both prospect research and assisting with planned giving at another organization where I had interned doing only prospect research. My planned giving boss was a demon and got me fired. I got my current job because my research boss liked me and could serve as a reference.

    I make a fair amount of money now so it’s tough to find a position that both pays well without a track record of closing gifts. Can anybody suggest how to approach it while applying for positions?

    1. Gillian*

      I’ve only done the development communications/special events portions of fundraising, which are very different, so I’m not sure I could be of much help. Does your area have an AFP chapter? Both the national organization and local chapter have been helpful to me when looking to step outside my comfort zone or learn a new skill.

      If you’re at a prestigious university, you might be able to talk about your interactions with important community members or regents or board members and point to that as proof of being able to manage conversations with the types of people who might be your donors, but without having actually made the ask before, it may be difficult. Sorry I’m not of more help!

      1. Fundraiser*

        Unfortunately I don’t have interactions with any donors. I am going to try and explain that I am ok making the ask because I know people can afford. Also that by researching people with many different occupations I can make conversation about a lot of industries.

    2. TFS*

      While you don’t have the frontline experience, your career and work is dedicated to assessing whether people have the capacity and inclination to give to your organization. I would focus on the way those insights, coupled with your people skills, will make you a great fundraiser. Good prospect researchers know a lot about fundraising–maybe more than some fundraisers (although 2 years of experience is not all that much in the grand scheme of things). You may also be able to point to some metrics showing how work you’ve done as a prospect researcher has led to gifts, or talk about how you work very closely with fundraisers at your org. You might also want to look into volunteering in your community in order to gain more hands-on experience.

      1. Also a Fundraiser*

        A word of caution: be careful not to over emphasize how much your research role gives you insights into frontline fundraising. Oftentimes there can be a gap between what researchers believe their understanding to be versus what frontline/managers believe their understanding to be. It’s better to show that you are informed because you’ve actively sought out information, not because because you believe your research background has prepared you for the frontline.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      Tangent question for Fundraiser: a local university has an opening for a propsect research officer, and it’s really hard to tell from the ad what exactly this job entails on a day to day basis. Can you shed any light? I’m interested in fundraising and development but *don’t* want to be the front line “asker.”

      1. Fundraiser*

        It can vary by institution. The vast vast majority of the time you’re not going to ever see a donor. That’s not what you’re hired for and it’s not popular for people to know they’re being researched.

        The majority of the job is researching individuals (sometimes it’s corporations or foundations, the job ad should specify and it all overlaps a little). There’s usually in-depth and not so in-depth research. You will have to to find real estate holdings, if there is public stock, other charitable giving, foundation fillings, and then try to estimate what they can give. There are tools for all of those things. A lot of places will have you write your findings up so writing skills are crucial. You get to research a variety of people which keeps it interesting. It’s basically a combination of facebook stalking and watching lifestyles of the rich and famous.

        Some places you will have to meet with the askers and discuss who they’re asking. You talk about their “portfolio” from a data stand point. This will be called prospect management in the job description. Please let me know if you have any more questions, I am more than happy to answer them.

      2. Florida*

        If you are interested in development but want to be behind the scenes, you could also consider grant writing, annual fund (which usually includes direct mail and telemarketing), or event management (although that might involve some asking).

        I worked at a very large organization that had a lot of highbrow events. The prospect researcher had to know all about the people who would be attending the event. She followed the president around and told the president, “This woman up here on the left is Minnie Bucks, the president of Fancy Dancy Teapots. They donated $5 million to us last year. Her daughter is attending Teapot University and studying teapot design.” Then the researcher would back out of the scene until the president finished talking to that person. I always thought that was a cool aspect of her job because it seemed like an undercover operation. She did this maybe 3-4 days a year. The rest of her job was sitting behind a computer doing research.

    4. Also a Fundraiser*

      I’m in frontline fundraising, and do a lot of hiring for entry/mid-level frontline fundraisers. A few thoughts for you:
      – It’s going to be easier to transition to a frontline role at a smaller nonprofit than a large institution, where the pool of experienced candidates is larger.
      – Some shops do have frontline positions that are below the director level, and are willing to hire those without as much experience.
      – Think carefully about where and how you want to build your career. If a position at a quality shop opens up that would put you on the frontline track, it may be worth it to take a small step back in salary. If you are good at frontline, you will have the opportunity to make up that gap within a few short years. My guess is that this transition could end up being very difficult if you’re not allowing for any room in salary.
      – Do some informational interviews with frontline fundraisers so that you have a realistic understanding of what the job entails. Candidates lose their competitiveness when they’re unable to articulate a true understanding of the work of the position.
      – Also consider a job that puts you closer to the frontline that you could do for a few years to make you more competitive (special events, donor relations, etc)

      Good luck!

    5. erd*

      I do digital fundraising but I got my experience basically on accident. It’s hard to get in front of donors (IRL or online) when you don’t have experience. Even though you are in fundraising, you’ve grown in prospect research to the point where it’s hard to take the entry-level roles that lead front-line fundraising. Not quite golden handcuffs (though who knows, I won’t pretend to know your salary!) but maybe silver handcuffs :) A lot of entry-level development positions pay pretty poorly.

      Can you volunteer at events for your organization? That’s a great way to get in front of people. Is there anyone who can mentor you? The few people I know well doing face-to-face fundraising started out in events.

    6. Florida*

      Are you in a position to offer strategic suggestions about cultivation? For example, after you research an individual, you could suggest that “based on this individual’s background, interest, and capacity, our next step could be ___.” I don’t know your workplace, so I don’t know how that would come across.

      If money is important to you, and it sounds like it is (nothing wrong with that!), then I would focus on larger organizations such as higher ed, hospitals, performing arts centers, etc. Social services organizations pay much less than those do.

      Have you thought about volunteering on a fundraising committee for a local nonprofit? That would give you the frontline fundraising experience. Another avenue would be to take a position involving the phone. The assistant to a major gift officer would have a lot of personal contact with donors, but it’s often on the phone. Another option would be alumni relations or donor stewardship. Those people are not closers, but they have donor contact. That might be a good transition to frontline fundraising.

      I know others suggested that you consider smaller organizations, but I also think you should consider staying in higher ed – a lot of it depends on the hiring manager. When hiring for a major gift officer, some managers think that a candidate with higher ed experience is a better hire than a candidate with frontline social service experience. Others think that the frontline experience (regardless of mission) is more important. If you are at a large university, you might be an attractive candidate for a frontline position at a smaller school.

      I think you are right about two years from a prestigious organization is a huge benefit. Two years is a long time in fundraising. Sadly, the field has a lot of turnover (check out Penelope Burk’s research on this). I’ve seen people hired for director-level positions with no nonprofit experience and not a lot of work experience. Also, it doesn’t matter if you are the janitor at the White House, you still work at the White House, which has prestige and impresses people. It sounds like your university might be like that. This is where a smaller, less prestigious school might hire you because you must be good if you worked for Big Prestigious University.

      Depending on your office environment, you might want to make it know that you are interested in moving into frontline fundraising when a position becomes available. If you have a culture where there is a lot of promoting from within and helping people grow, I would recommend that you make it known. In other cultures, you might want to keep quiet. But if people know, they might help you get more involved (including you in meetings, etc.)

      Good luck with it. Keep us posted.

  19. Nervous Accountant*

    Coming back with good news for once…..I got an offer to be made permanent/regular! This is my very first non seasonal/non temp job ever. I’ve been working towards this goal for years! It feels so surreal.

    Wonderful start to my favorite month :-)

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      Good for you Nervous Accountant! Hope you get to treat yourself a little bit in celebration :)

    2. GOG11*

      WONDERFUL! Congratulations, Nervous Accountant! Is this in the placement you were in before (the one with the challenging colleagues) or a new one? Sorry if you’ve already said!

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        The one with the coworkers who didn’t like me, yes!!!! I’m still happy though lol

    11. Canadian Maternity Leave Question*

      That is so wonderful!! Feels good doesn’t it! Congratulations :) I’m sure it is a well-deserved promotion.

  20. angel tears*

    I heard of a little-known hiring secret. Someone told me that companies don’t like to hire previously intereviewed rejected candidates. I asked why, the answer is unclear. Now, I know this is by no means a universal truth. Heck, I myself have been hired by companies that intereviewed and rejected me before. But from the myriad interviews and applications I’ve gone through, I do think there is a lot of truth in this phenomenon.

    What does anyone else think? Agree? Disagree? What might be a reason behind this?

    1. GOG11*

      I don’t think this is quite right… though many positions do have a minimum set of requirements, meeting that bar doesn’t mean you get hired and not meeting it doesn’t mean the opposite. The strength and fit of the other candidates against whom you’re competing defines who a company hires. You may be a great fit, but not the best fit. Or the needs of the position may change. Or you may be hiring for a different, better fitting position. Or the candidate may have different skills/qualifications by the next time the position is open.

      If this is within one hiring cycle, i.e., we met with this person and they didn’t have the bare minimum but we didn’t find out until the interview, I could see this being applicable.

    2. Sandy*

      When we hire, it really depends on why we rejected the person in the first place. If we just had another outstanding candidate and it was a tough decision, then I’d be willing to hire them into a different role down the road.

      If we rejected the person in a “oh heck no!” kind of situation (either in the initial round or after an interview), then we wouldn’t waste our time going through the steps again.

      Problem is, as a job seeker, you have no way of knowing which one of those applies to your candidacy.

      1. Treena Kravm*

        This. I suspect whoever told you this “secret” was referring to the “Oh heck no” candidates. Of course they’re not going to get called in again. They were dressed inappropriately, were rude to the administrative staff, etc. Not much of a secret, IMO. If you behave wildly inappropriately enough to be remembered in a poor light, it’s sort of a guarantee that you’re not going to be given a second chance.

      2. Michele*

        It is the same here. If someone is rejected because they seem like they would be hard to work with or for some other major flaw, they will never stand a chance. However, if something was a close call, but someone was just more qualified, they do.

        I will add that if someone turns down an offer then reapplies at a later time, my boss will refuse to consider them.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      That’s not how we do it here! If someone was in the running (like second or third choice) for a position, we will often call them the next time something opens up to see if they are still interested. Or we will pass their info on to another dept. that is hiring and tell them that we came close to making him/her an offer. Those people often end up getting the job.

    4. the_scientist*

      my current job was a second interview with the same team! I mentioned it explicitly in my cover letter, as in “since being rejected for this job, here are the things I’ve done to make me a stronger candidate”. Obviously, I got the job, so it worked!

      Like Sunflower said, I think it depends on the reason- if you come across as unprofessional, inappropriate, incapable of conforming to professional norms and unprepared for your interview, you probably won’t be invited back. On the other hand, if you are professional, prepared, and give a good interview, but they go with someone who has more experience? I think any reasonable hiring manager would keep you in mind and invite you back if you apply again. I had a different interview for a government job where I didn’t get the job, but the hiring manager offered to give me some feedback and he said that he’ll be sure to bring me in for an interview if he sees my resume, because he was impressed with my interview, but they ultimately hired a person with significantly more experience.

    5. Artemesia*

      Someone I know just got a fabulous high level very highly paid offer from a place he was rejected by two years ago. As with everything — context.

    6. Erin*

      I do not know the thought process on the hiring side of things, but from the other side…I was once rejected twice by the same company. I interviewed for a job and was essentially told I was second choice, so I didn’t make it.

      A year later they called me back to interview for the same position (which wasn’t advertised anywhere) because the other person they’d hired was leaving. I was foolishly optimistic that I’d be almost a shoo-in, but they rejected me again. They seemed to feel badly about it and apparently are still holding onto my resume, but I would definitely hesitate to interview with them a third time.

      Perhaps I should have approached it like the_scientist did and specified how my job skills had improved in the meantime.

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ve hired a bunch of people who I’d previously rejected for a different role (and maybe for the same role, although my memory is hazier on that). Their ongoing interest in working with the organization is usually a good thing, not a bad one.

    8. BRR*

      I’m sure people do it because people do a lot of dumb things but I think it’s uncommon. When people are interviewed, the company thinks it’s reasonably possible for the candidate to do the work required.

    9. MaryMary*

      I think it depends why someone wasn’t hired and at what stage that decision was made. If someone doesn’t make it through the phone screen, they’re probably not going to get hired if they reapply (unless their situation has drastically changed). But I’ve hired people into the same role they were previously rejected from. In one situation, we had two strong candidates, and it was a judgement call as to which we’d hire. If we’d had two open positions we would have hired them both. We ended up choosing the candidate we thought would fit in better with the current team. A couple months later when another associate left the team, we immediately contacted our runner up from the previous round of interviews. Luckily he was still available and interested, and we hired him right away. It was also terrific to bring in a new hire fairly quickly, instead of spending weeks/months reviewing resumes and doing interviews.

    10. Jen RO*

      My department hired a previously-rejected candidate and she’s a rock star.

      Initially we only had one position, and had to choose between a candidate with experience and a candidate who was very enthusiastic, but did not have any relevant experience. We went with the experienced one. A couple of months later, the same position opened on a different team, and we reached out to the other person. The two have different strengths, but they are both doing great more than a year after the fact.

    11. Anx*

      In my experience, I’ve never been hired where I had been previously not-hired.

      This is a little nerve-wracking because I live in an area with limited opportunities and there are only a handful of companies in my field.

    12. Cristina*

      It could be a data/filter issue rather than a conscious decision. In our system when we fill out the feedback on a candidate it asks “right for the role” and “appropriate for another role.” As a hiring manager, if they’re not right for my role, and there are no imminent positions for the person, I mark no to both. That doesn’t mean they should never be considered again, just that there are no current roles that fit. But I could see how that might filter them out for future roles. If they reapplied though they’d still be considered.

    13. Otter box*

      Well, it’s not an absolute rule everywhere, because I was hired a year after I was initially turned down for the same position. I indicated in my cover letter and email message that I had applied and been interviewed for the same job previously. It was a little nerve-wracking not knowing whether they’d rejected me because they hated me and I bombed the interview, or because they just wanted someone with more experience the first time around, but they eventually called me in for interviews and I think everything moved quickly because they were already familiar with me. In my case, it worked out well, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this is a little more common these days, with so many qualified candidates applying for each open position, for someone who was initially choice #2 or #3 to become choice #1 later on.

    14. Clever Name*

      I interviewed twice for the company I currently work for. The first time I interviewed I just wasn’t a good fit for the position they had open. The second time, about 3 years later, I was a perfect fit for a different position they had open then and they hired me.

  21. Not Today Satan*

    A couple weeks ago I had an interview that went well. I met with two managers separately for one hour each. This afternoon I’ll have a phone conversation with another manager. I’m a little confused by the order reversal of the phone/in person interviews, but in any case I’m glad I’m moving to the next step, because this is a job I really want.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      The person might be out of town. Or just prefers phone interviews for a random reason. I bet it’s really just for a silly logistical reason. Good luck! Your name always makes me laugh when I see it.

    2. Michele*

      Good luck. It could be that the second person was unavailable or that they only serve as a final check on candidates. One of our higher-ups does something like that. He get scheduled last, and if he gets good feedback on a candidate he will interview them. If he gets bad feedback, he won’t.

  22. AnonToday*

    Hello all – I’m a usual poster but I’m going anonymous for this question.

    I have a total of 9 years of FT experience, including 2.5 years at my current company which is in a different field than my previous work. For several reasons I’m looking to leave my current company and ideally I’d like to make a move that would be a promotion from where I am now. However, I’m not even sure if I want a management role, and I don’t have much management experience, aside from managing projects, leading a large company committee and managing 1 direct report for a year who was a temp employee.

    As I search for roles i may be interested in, I’m seeing a lot of roles for managers. Is it worth it for me to even apply to these, given my lack of experience managing direct reports? Should I keep trying to find individual contributor roles? Those seem to be fewer & fewer the more experience you have, almost everything is looking for a manager. And finally, I’m looking for roles both in my current profession, as well as the hands-on technical work I used to do, which I haven’t done in almost 3 years – do you think it’s a waste of time to look for those roles?

    1. Treena Kravm*

      I don’t think anyone will tell you it’s a waste of time to apply, but I would probably figure out what your top choice would be–technical work, contributor role, or manager? If it doesn’t matter too much, and you’re caring more about company culture, salary, benefits etc., then I would continue to apply to all 3 types.

      And for what it’s worth, 1 year of managing a temp is not nothing! Do any of the job descriptions tell you how big a team the position would be managing? I would focus my energy on applying to jobs with smaller teams. It’s easier to make the jump that way.

    2. Graciela Adrianna*

      Keep in mind the word manager doesn’t always mean you manage people. Where I work, the manager title often gets added to the next senior level of individual contributor, but it is said that they manage process. Don’t eliminate things unless you have to.

  23. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I interviewed someone yesterday and it left me flabbergasted. The candidate was smart, polished, and very personable, but he asked me no questions about the job and none about my job/role in the company. His two major questions (after I gave him an, “Ask me anything!” opening, which came because he wasn’t asking ANYTHING) were about his candidacy, specifically about his own position in the hiring process. I was so thrown for a loop that I answered truthfully and said that the decision is up to my boss (the hiring manager) and I really couldn’t say because I haven’t met with everyone yet. I tried to back-track and get him to ask me about the role itself, but I got nothing. I had asked him about his impressions of the role based on his earlier conversations, why he’s thinking about moving on from his current gig, all the basics, but he didn’t seem to care about the job itself, just about his own chances of getting said job.

    What have you done in these situations? How did you deflect these questions?

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Is this for an entry-level position? Because I didn’t ask questions during my first few interviews after college. I just didn’t know any better (and the internet wasn’t a thing yet so it wasn’t as easy to find out all this awesome advice).

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        It’s a junior position and he has about 2 years of full-time work experience. I didn’t ask questions either early in my career– and that’s why I was so taken aback! I would certainly never have asked about where I stood in the process. It was just so… weirdly forward.

        1. Artemesia*

          With a very junior applicant I would chalk it up to inexperience and naivete; some people get good advice about the application process and others don’t. If everything else looks good I wouldn’t hold it against him.

        2. Lily in NYC*

          Yeah, that part could be a red flag. And I also thought that there are plenty of junior employees who do their research and know to ask questions in an interview – so I guess I have mixed feelings about this dude!

        3. Persephone Mulberry*

          I think this is a VERY typical question for someone who isn’t very seasoned yet and isn’t sure what to ask but know they’re supposed to ask *something*, and also tends to be one of those “suggested questions” from mediocre job advice articles who still believe it’s important to “close the sale”.

    2. Treena Kravm*

      I think people easily fall into the “I WANT A JOB” mindset and they think any type of enthusiasm is equally valued, even the type that doesn’t really demonstrate they’re interested!

      If I were frustrated enough, I would probably ask pointedly, “Is there anything you were wondering about the position? I’m getting the sense you’re not all that interested in learning how the role functions.” If anything, that will be direct feedback about what he needs to do in his next interview.

      But agreed with Lily, for entry-level positions I’d cut some slack. It’s really hard to know that you should be asking these questions. Once you’ve worked somewhere an know you love X but hate Y, it’s easier to come up with questions.

      1. Sunshine Brite*

        ^^ This. I know at the job I’m at now I’m sure I asked some position specific roles but not too much because I got the sense there was a bunch of different avenues and they weren’t sure where everyone in the hiring class would end up. And I just started to seriously want out of my previous position to the point where I almost took a paycut which wouldn’t have been good with my husband’s employment situation at the time. The I WANT A JOB mindset can really be overpowering if you just want something else, anything else.

    3. fposte*

      I hire a lot of early-career people, and I found that I started getting very different responses when I changed how I asked for questions. “So, do you have any questions for us?” gets a lot of “No, I think I’m good.” “We’ve asked you a lot of questions; now it’s your turn to ask us some. What more would you like to know about the job or the workplace?” gets questions every time.

      Don’t know if that’s your situation or you just had an unquestioning candidate. But the first made it seem like “Do you have any problems” and made a “No” seem desirable, while the second makes it seem like it’s part of the process and a “No” would be inadvisable.

      1. Anx*

        Although I usually ask questions in interviews, I can totally see why the second phrasing gets so many more questions.

        I’m naturally very inquisitive, probably to a fault. Outside of interviews, “do you have any questions” is a pretty standard why of closing a meeting or a lecture or conversation and may seem more like a polite gesture than a true invitation for questions. I tend not to ask questions even when I’m curious sometimes in an attempt to be polite or not keep people longer.

      2. land of oaks*

        wow this is a really good suggestion! I know that for my first few years in the work world, I definitely felt like the former: I said “no, I’m good!” because I felt like having questions would make me sound difficult.

    4. Jen RO*

      When I was first job searching I had to really, really wrack my brain to come up with some questions. I had never had a job, so I had no idea what to ask! I am sure I was That Girl – “nope, I’m good, everything’s clear!”. Of course nothing was clear, but I wasn’t about to admit that I just wanted a job, any job, and I didn’t understand half of what the interviewer was saying. I was also terrified of the idea of interviewing.

      I’m very good at my job now (even though I had to fake enthusiasm during the interview), I know what questions to ask, and I’m starting to actually enjoy interviewing. I’d cut the guy some slack, he sounds young and inexperienced.

  24. This is Me Not Being Me*

    I got it I got it I GOT THE JOB I WAS HOPING FOR!!!

    They called yesterday with a verbal offer, email/physical to follow today or Monday. I do have to run the numbers to be sure, but based on what I already know, I’m pretty confident the numbers will be _just fine_. The salary offer was above what I was hoping for, actually, so the benefits would have to be terrible – and they’re known for having excellent benefits, and everything I did hear during the interview process (because one of my interviewers talked them up, all unasked) backed that up.

    I can go back to being me soon for everything, when I’m not hiding the job search.

    I got the job!

    (Offer contingent on background check. Not concerned about the background check, as there is nothing to find there that would mess with it.)

    3. This is Me Not Being Me*

      And, Alison? THANK YOU. Your advice and guides helped a lot with my resume, cover letter, and interview prep.

    6. This is Me Not Being Me*

      Thank you, everyone.

      The team members I met were awesome, the job and product sounds great, the campus and building is gorgeous, the benefits are nice, the manager works out of another location and was praised by the team members without prompting, and I will have a one-mile commute.

      One. Mile.

      I have fallen in a vat of…I don’t know, something good. (I know I should say I’ve “fallen in the cream”, but I’m lactose-intolerant so that doesn’t sound good. Yes, I’m weird. And very excited, and babbling.)

      1. Hlyssande*

        Oooooh, walkable and bike-able distance if you’re so inclined/able. Nice!

        1. This is Me Not Being Me*

          Yes! And I need to exercise more, and I like walking! I am super-excited about that. (And in fact, walking a mile will still be faster than driving my current commute…even if I somehow did my current commute with no traffic.)

    7. Steve G*

      Congrats! And I am jealous:-). I did NOT get the dream job I was hoping for, at least I don’t think I did, since the resume was 16 days ago………………………..

      1. This is Me Not Being Me*

        Thank you! Fingers crossed for you. I had the feeling they were moving fairly fast, and it’s still been…four weeks? Five? Something like that.

        Either way, I hope you find something awesome, and soon. :)

  25. Interview Coaching*

    How can I help my spouse prepare for an interview when they get defensive? My spouse’s original career goal was full-time professor. As it’s a lofty goal he has also been applying to non-professor jobs (he’s currently working retail and finishing his dissertation). I have several years of office experience where as his experience is all academic. He’s had a couple of interviews and I have helped him prep but every time he doesn’t practice his answers with me.

    Part of it is it’s awkward to say answers to your spouse, I get that. The other part is he doesn’t like receiving feedback from me. I am a good interviewer and have the track record to back me up, so I can be tough. But he’ll also deflect, hem and haw, or dismiss the basis of the question. I don’t think there’s been one question where he has just answered it. He got notice today of an interview for Monday, it’s really important that he does well because he is very interested in this job and the pay/benefits are amazing. He hasn’t had that much practice interviewing though. He’d be a great employee but interviewing isn’t his strength as he’s rather quiet, this job is a mild stretch for him, and is trained for academic interviewing.

    1. Anie*

      Well, you’ve found what won’t work, from the sound of it. So what else can you do that doesn’t involve you personally prepping him? Maybe you can suggest a friend he can do a mock interview with. Perhaps you could make a list of questions you feel are likely to be asked and simply give them to him.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        +1. Involving the spouse can be tricky in these situations. Do you have someone else versed in interviewing who doesn’t also have a personal relationship with him? And not to stereotype academics (much), but they’re experts in their field and sometimes carry that to OTHER fields, where it may not be as warranted. (I have had academics tell me to my face that the PhD entitles them to express opinions on ANYthing they feel like). Not saying that this is the case with your spouse, but academics often love to argue and re-frame and poke holes in whatever is presented (it’s part of the training), which can come across as defensive. As another thought, it may also be that your spouse feels some ambivalence about non-academic jobs, and this is playing out in the apparent defensiveness of his responses. That’s another thing that graduate school often socializes you to think: anything less than/different from tenure track is a failure.

        1. the gold digger*

          I have had academics tell me to my face that the PhD entitles them to express opinions on ANYthing they feel like

          My husband’s father, who has a PhD in English, was trying to convince our nephew that five times negative five was zero because the negative cancels out the positive.

          I really enjoyed being able to say bluntly and flatly, “Sly, you are wrong.”

          1. So Very Anonymous*

            On the flip side of that, I recently got twitted a little by a PhD for complaining about the weak teaching in a professional degree program because “Well, So Very, YOU have a PhD so YOU should have been able to teach yourself everything.” Yes, because my humanities PhD automatically makes me fluent in statistics… NOT EVEN A LITTLE. Believe me, I know my limitations.

        2. Interview Coaching*

          So much of this is right. He is that type of academic. He loves to be right and will be butt hurt about things just for the sake of being butt hurt (which is the perfect personality trait for interviewing :D).

          I do have a hunch he views a non-academic job as failure. Even though he went to a low ranked school, has no publications in peer reviewed journals, and his topic is so specific there will likely never be a job calling for it so he has to apply to broader job postings putting him up against more attractive candidates, academics cling on to hope (I call it Voldemort, they’re not allowed to talk about the chance of not getting a professorship). This is a company that hires a a lot of academics (he’s humanities and they’re humanities as well) for a department so he’s more open to this position when he found out he’d be working with fellow PhDs, but

          1. fposte*

            Have you posted here before about this? The situation sounds familiar, especially the publications thing. Is he preparing anything for publication now, and if not why not? Has he submitted proposals to presses about a book version of his dissertation? Is he prepared to do anything to make himself a more attractive candidate than he sounds even in the description of the person who loves him?

            I’m in armchair mode, so: is his defensiveness with you part of a fear of failing that led him not to publish and is setting back any other development efforts now?

            1. Interview Coaching*

              I have not, I think there are just too many academics in the same position haha.

              He is currently ABD and his last chapter is currently with his adviser, he will likely not defend until fall though. He is trying to prepare a dissertation chapter or a paper he will be presenting soon for submission. So his lack of submissions is only caused by nothing to submit.

              I’m going into armchair mode now too: I almost feel like he feels he hasn’t had his chance to test the academic market. That non-professor jobs are his plan b but plan a is very difficult and plan b isn’t so easy either (especially with a PhD in the humanities and his last non-teaching experience ended in 2008). I think his defensiveness is he doesn’t accept any criticism well from anybody and that he thinks of job hunting more as a class assignment than what it is. Such as he feels like if he submits a resume and cover letter for a position he’s qualified for they should “grade” (my words not his) him and invite him for an interview. And for interviews that he needs to impress them a certain way. He doesn’t recognize that it’s more like a contest.

              1. fposte*

                Oh, that sounds like a really plausible summary–he really hasn’t absorbed that they get quite a few applicants with passing grades but they only have room for one. So he hasn’t published anything–has he done some conference presentations? (And if he hasn’t done those either, I can see why the school isn’t ranked very high, because they should have been nudging him to both conferences and publications.)

                1. Interview Coaching*

                  He has his first scheduled in June. He was accepted to one previously but he had a family member pass two days before.

                  Hmm it’s interesting you bring up nudging students. All of his friends are in the same program and they seem to rely heavily on students using self motivation. His adviser will edit writings but doesn’t recommend or push things. Only one person from the program has gotten a full-time job in the recent past and they were lucky. It’s a really low ranked school (by US News between 173 and 201) and his grad program is ranked by US News past 100.

              2. So Very Anonymous*

                To be very blunt, he needs to get over this. The job market isn’t school, and he is competing with a LOT of people these days. He can test the academic market in the fall if he doesn’t have something lined up by then (since this is the slow season for academic job postings, right?).

                But at the same time, he does needs to be thinking about “plan b” options. Does his department or professional association offer any workshops etc. on this? It’s my sense that many associations and their conferences are moving towards offering information and support for transitioning PhDs into other kinds of jobs. I understand what you mean about Voldemort, but didn’t Harry Potter finally realize that it was important to start saying his name? That’s the case in academia now. It’s not Something That Can’t Be Named anymore.

    2. LizB*

      From what you’ve described, I don’t think YOU are the right person to be helping him prepare. It would be nice if he would take your experience into account and listen to your advice, but it sounds like coming from you, it’s too personal — he can’t separate “This is a person who is criticizing me to help me get better” from “This is my spouse and them criticizing me feels bad.” Do you have any colleagues or friends that he doesn’t know who might be willing to run through some questions with him? Also, are you sure he really wants to practice? I get that he should, because everyone should, but he’s an adult — trying to force him into doing this is not going to work, and feels a little bit like trying to parent him. You’re not his parent, and you’re not his hiring manager — you’re his spouse! This may just not be your role.

      If you’re dead set on doing it yourself, or he really wants to practice with you, I would suggest separating the mock interview portion from the criticism/feedback portion. If possible, record the interview (just sound would probably be fine), and be “in character” as a hiring manager the whole time, pretending you don’t know him at all. Then, afterwards, listen back through the recording and give him feedback. If you can write down the feedback, that’s even better, and gives him another level of distance to get his emotions in check. Ideally, he would be able to take the recording and your written notes and reflect on your feedback away from you, then take some time to consider it, and follow up with any clarifications or questions. This makes it all more impersonal, and lets him process and get upset/angry/whatever without creating conflict in the moment. If you can’t get actual emotional distance by having him practice with someone he’s not married to, this would be the best way to do that.

      1. Interview Coaching*

        Unfortunately there’s nobody else to do it. He definitely wants to practice. He wants help, can accept I have good advice, then hates receiving suggestions. I have asked how he would like me to deliver feedback but long story short, there is no way that will be acceptable.

        I am thinking maybe we warm up with him asking me some questions. This way it’s not so one sided.

        Also I’m not sure if this thread makes me sound terrible or him sound terrible or that we have a terrible marriage. I want to acknowledge he is an awesome person and we are happily married.

        1. LizB*

          If he refuses to listen to suggestions, then he doesn’t really want advice, he wants cheerleading. If you’re okay practicing with him without giving any advice at all, just so he can hear how his answers sound out loud, that might be the way to go. But as long as he refuses to accept any critical feedback, he’s never going to really improve, and practicing is not going to be very useful. It sounds like this is going to be frustrating for you if you don’t give feedback and frustrating for him if you do, which makes it a bit of a no-win situation.

          The ONLY way that written feedback + processing at a distance might help is if a) he acknowledges that there are actually areas where he needs to improve, and b) you both agree that once the feedback is given, that’s the end of the discussion. He can’t come back to you to argue your points, you can’t go back to him to verbally reinforce anything you wrote down. Once he has the recording and notes, he can do with them what he likes (shred them, burn them, write pages of angry rebuttal notes), but the practice session is OVER, and you are back to being just spouses.

          1. Interview Coaching*

            “If he refuses to listen to suggestions, then he doesn’t really want advice, he wants cheerleading.”

            There we go. I think he wants praise.

        2. College Career Counselor*

          If the career services office where he is finishing works with graduate students (and if they’re any good, of course), that might be a venue for a disinterested 3rd party to assist. And, believe me, I don’t think you or your husband is a bad person–you’re just not suited for these roles with each other. My parents decided that they would teach each other their respective foreign languages. What could possibly go wrong with that, right? Both academics in foreign language, well-versed in pedagogy, good at learning languages, etc.

          They had to give it up after six weeks, because it was threatening their relationship. And I’m glad they did, otherwise I might not be here!

          1. Interview Coaching*

            Unfortunately we moved for a job opportunity for me and he cannot access career services. They don’t have a great reputation at this university.

        3. TeapotCounsel*

          Also I’m not sure if this thread makes me sound terrible or him sound terrible

          Thread is making him sound terrible. As I get older, I get less and less patient with defensiveness. And I say that with some embarrassment because I used to be way too defensive.

          The issue here is more than interview prep. It’s a personality flaw. He needs to grow up and learn that receiving criticism is not the same as being personally condemned. He must learn to separate the critique of the attribute from the person that he is. His inability to do that stems from a lack of maturity and some narcissism (please forgive armchair psychology).

          I know this post sounds harsh, butI don’t mean to be. I say this harshly because it took multiple, harsh statements like the one above before I finally “got it,” and stopped with the defensiveness/narcissism.

          You may put it to him like this: You can either lose the defensiveness and have a job. Or you can stay unemployed.

          1. Interview Coaching*

            Ooh this made me feel better. I am worried how he’ll fair receiving criticism in a professional environment. Might as well coach him on that too.

          2. So Very Anonymous*

            I’m just curious — how has he responded to critique of his writing? When I was in grad school (humanities) we regularly had our work critiqued by our peers as well as by our professors — was meant to teach you both how to criticize constructively and how to take constructive criticism. Did he learn to view that kind of thing as constructive rather than critical? And if so, could he draw on that experience as a way of getting better at dealing with feedback?

            1. Sophia in the DMV*

              This! Plus, having your work peer reviewed by journal reviewers is a quick lesson in humility. Unfortunately it doesn’t sound like he’s even been through the peer review process

    3. Treena Kravm*

      Yea, I think you need to either not be the person who coaches him, or not be so tough. If he’s academically inclined, why not suggest he writes out his answers like a paper? That’s usually less intimidating for academics, and then once he’s got the solid answer down, then you can practice with him saying it all in a conversational setting.

      1. Interview Coaching*

        That’s a great suggestion. i don’t think that would be as helpful for him. He is a writer and needs to be steered away from sounding like a robot when answering questions. He is shy and so it takes sometime for him to project warmth to strangers.

        1. So Very Anonymous*

          Has he done any teaching? Could he approach interview prep as if it were like creating a lesson plan?

        2. misspiggy*

          That may be true, but you’ve got to start where he is comfortable for him to make progress. I’d say the written answers idea would be a great starting point.

    4. Artemesia*

      It just doesn’t work to play Mommy to one’s husband. I would not be giving him any advice he isn’t begging for. Send him to AAM’s sections on interviewing and such and let him run his own work life. You probably do have good advice for him but your marriage is more important than you being his job coach and worklife is one area where a spouse should not meddle IMHO. Even when the spouse is soliciting the feedback, it is a difficult road. When they are resistant it is a minefield. It won’t help his job search and it sure won’t help the marriage. Back off entirely.

    5. Sunshine Brite*

      I refuse to get involved with my husband’s job searches. I hated his resume and cover letter but unless he specifically asked for help I stayed out of it and tried to avoid proofreading. I was really glad this time around when I could connect him with a friend who was working on resume writing. I’m leaving his career success to him even though it can only benefit me.

      1. Jen RO*

        My boyfriend and I have very different ideas about job searching. He is very good at his job and he knows it, so he is sometimes (often) arrogant to HR and interviewers… then wonders why they don’t call back… but won’t listen to me that even though they have no idea what they’re talking about, maybe it wouldn’t hurt to be more diplomatic. He sees it as a good way to filter out companies he wouldn’t want to work for – I see it as getting himself removed from the process early. But since he’s never been without a job for more than a few days, I have accepted the fact that it works for him and I’m not getting involved (and also not asking him for advice on *my* job search!)

    6. So Very Anonymous*

      If he hasn’t already, he might want to look at a site like Versatile PhD, which has lots of information/advice for PhDs looking to transition out of academia. You do need to join for some but I think not all of their resources. I think there’s some cost involved if you join as an individual, but I know that the American Historical Association has arranged for their members to have a free membership — if your husband is a member of a large professional association along those lines, he may have that option as well.

      AaM’s archives are great not just for interviewing information/advice, but can also be useful for him to start learning more about how to acclimate to nonacademic work cultures.

    8. AnonAcademic*

      I read all the replies and just wanted to add something as an ABD who may have insight into your husband’s thought process. People who complete a Ph.D. are basically super students used to excelling at nearly everything academic. The risk of outright failure is low in academia for the super student – until you start trying to network at conferences, publish papers, complete the dissertation successfully, and go on the job market. For some people this is the first time in their life they may actually fail at something, because life/the job market is not as tidy as school. ABD is the part in the process with the highest attrition rate – google “the leaky pipeline.” It takes a great deal of humility and grit to put up with paper review, get through job talks, approach big wig speakers at conferences, and write the dissertation. It’s a different skill set than what carries you through the other 4 years of grad school. Your husband HAS to work on this skill set if he will be anything more than a super student. But, you’re probably not going to successfully convince him of this. Ideally it’s something one of his mentors would have told him at least a few years ago.

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        Yes, this. He will also definitely need this skill set if he is applying for nonacademic jobs.

  26. Lily in NYC*

    I recently moved to a new division – it’s smaller, and is staffed by overachieving Ivy League types who think nothing of working until 10pm every night (which is late considering we are govt). I am the executive assistant to the dept. head and also help out with a huge ongoing project which takes up 90% of my time. The lower level staffers have been asking me to do assistant-type work for them but I don’t work for them and am actually higher level or equal to all of them. I don’t think they realize this nor do I think they know I’m not a dept. assistant. But they all work so hard and so late that I feel weird pushing back and saying no. I’ve been doing what they ask but I’m getting much busier with my project. I’m ready to push back but I don’t know how to bring it up without it seeming like I’m shirking work. I’m sure my boss would be willing to say something but I’d like to avoid that unless I’m out of options. I’m the only non-exempt employee in the dept. and I work a lot of free overtime but still nothing close to the hours of everyone else. So when I leave before 6pm, they probably think I’m slacking, when in reality, I’ve already worked two hours for free (I can’t put in for overtime or they will find a way to fire me on trumped up charges). I’m basically looking for a way to let them know that it’s not my responsibility to help them with minor admin tasks without looking like a petty slacker. I know Alison has talked about this subject before but I think it’s a little different for me because the nature of my job is to be helpful.

    1. Ama*

      Would your boss be willing to send around an updated org chart that lists where everyone is in the hierarchy and their basic job functions? That might help with at least people knowing what you’re supposed to be doing. (I actually recently discovered that a bunch of people didn’t realize I’ve been at manager level for over a year because a new phone directory was sent out with my old title.)

      If your boss is willing, you also might be able to get his buy in on saying you can’t help with something because “I’m non-exempt and if I work too much unpaid overtime I’ll get in trouble.”

    2. This is Me Not Being Me*

      “I’ve been happy to help you when I’ve had free time, but my current project is ramping up and I don’t have the additional band-width any more. I’m sorry.”

      And if they push back about you being the department assistant, it will then be explicit and you can do the surprised “Oh! No! I didn’t realize you didn’t know, my role is….”

      I’d stop working the “free” overtime. That could get you in trouble, I would think. If they ask, just explain that you’re non-exempt and point out that paying overtime is not in the cards.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I do think it’s time to keep your boss in the loop. You can’t work unapproved overtime, right? And you’re working for free? That’s a good enough reason to say no, quite frankly. What I would do is talk to your boss and inform him/her that you’ve been asked to do admin tasks after hours but you’re planning to push back and say that you’re not authorized to work overtime and you’d like his/her opinion or back-up. Your boss doesn’t necessarily have to say something, but you should have back-up in case the rest of the staff says something to your boss.

      Unfortunately, though, I think you need to let someone send out a memo saying that if they need stuff they should go to a department assistant. You’re putting aside your own work so you can do tasks that aren’t even in your purview! It’s a bad precedent to set. I think you really need to bring your boss on-board, and soon.

    4. some1*

      This happened to me at a former company as an admin. I reported to the VP, but when new supervisor and manager (I outranked both on the org chart) were hired, they both tried to assign me stuff/get me to stay late, and the way I handled it in the moment was telling them I actually reported to the VP and would need to check with her.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Can you be direct about it? Like, “I don’t know if anyone ever clarified my role here. I’m actually not a department assistant; I’m here to do X, Y, and Z — and not to make you feel awkward, but I’m actually senior to you on our org chart so you’re stuck with your own copying, Bob.” (Say that last part with a sense of humor and/or smile and it I bet it’ll go over fine and get the job done.)

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Thanks everyone for your advice! I’ve tried the direct route with one person (who is new and equal level to me but doesn’t know it) and she just completely blew me off and just said “ok great” and walked away, still expecting me to do what she asked. I did talk to my boss and she gave me permission to push back but I’ve been reluctant because of the reasons I already mentioned. I think it’s time for me to say that now that I’m getting busier I can’t continue to do favors for everyone. And then I’ll say – “I’m not sure if you even realized that I do these things as favors and that it’s not part of my job”. I’m not used to working with such socially awkward people – they are all super-smart but don’t always pick up on social cues.

        1. plain_jane*

          Could you mention to them that you’re not allowed to work overtime?

          I’m not sure about the “not part of my job” comment. That would not go over well in any environment I’ve worked in. Instead “While in the past I’ve been able to support the rest of the team with these small requests, my Big Project needs to take priority for me. So unless you can get me an extension from Boss & the other stakeholders, I won’t be able to help out.”

          1. TeapotCounsel*

            Concur with this.
            “I’d love to help, but given my current workload, that would require me to work overtime, and unfortunately I’m not allowed to work overtime.”

        2. misspiggy*

          Could you say, ‘Ah, that type of task actually goes to Bob, your departmental assistant’?

      2. Rat Racer*

        Would you really trot out “I’m senior to you on the org chart”? Even in jest that sounds offensive to me.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          No, even though Alison said to do it in a jokey manner. It would go over fine in my former dept, but not this one (the people are more earnest and serious).

    6. LCL*

      You’re working free overtime? For a government job!? Stop that today. It is illegal law for non exempt employees to not be paid for overtime. It sounds like your employer is in violation of the Fair Labor Standards act. Tell your boss that you won’t work for free any longer because you don’t want to help them violate a federal law.

      You are actually entitled to those back wages, and you could get them back if you want to file a complaint with the US Department of Labor wage and hour division.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Lily has talked about this before and if I’m remembering correctly has made the calculation that she’s well paid and gets enough other benefits from the work (at a prestigious institution that’s not government, I think) that she’s fine with her situation. I don’t think there’s an obligation to fight your employer’s legal battles for them (and take on all the potential burdens that entails) if you’re actually perfectly happy with your compensation and treatment.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          Yes, this. Thanks Alison. And I was writing too quickly – my office is quasi-governmental – technically a private non-profit but we are attached to the Mayor’s office. I’m already making more than the top of my salary range and people are bitter about it (my salary is public info), so it’s just not my hill to die on.

          1. Rat Racer*

            It seems to me like Lily has an ongoing problem where she has a prestigious education (which she’s mentioned several times) a high salary and position on the org chart (which she’s mentioned numerous times) but a title that doesn’t match her role and has other people in the department mis-assessing her responsibilities and skillset. Maybe Lily you just need a new title.

              1. Rat Racer*

                Sorry Lily – I shouldn’t have said that. You have obviously struck a nerve of mine but I shouldn’t have been so dismissive.

                But – although I didn’t say it nicely, I actually do think that the reason you’re getting asked to complete tasks that are appropriate for someone much more junior has something to do with the fact that your title isn’t commensurate with your roles and responsibilities.

          1. Lily in NYC*

            No, not at all – my boss is not from the US and is kind of clueless about overtime laws. No one pays attention to anyone else’s hours around here.

  27. angel tears*

    To piggy-back on my earlier post, if you were interviewed by a company in the past and are in the middle of an interview, would you say something about interviewing with them in the past, if the recruiter doesn’t bring it up? I would love to hear from recruiters especially about this!

  28. LBK*

    Anyone have tips on asking for more/different work? I started a new position about 2 months ago and frankly, neither my team lead nor my manager has really given me much to do. I’m responsible for some regularly scheduled reports but those are far from enough to fill up a 40 hour schedule.

    The one thing that complicates this is that the non-reporting half of the team I’m on is a processing team and they’re understaffed and behind, so I’ve been chipping in to help them out a lot. I don’t mind assisting especially during a tough time, but it’s wildly different work than what I was hired to do and I have to assume there could be other things I could take on that are more related to my position – both of my managers and my team lead spend a ton of dealing with one off requests, many of which I feel I could be taking on for them so they could cut their hours and/or focus their attention elsewhere.

    The other complication is that there’s a huge emphasis on QC and reliability of data, so I think some of the resistant to passing along work is that (especially as a new employee) with the amount of time it would take to walk me through how to handle some of these requests or to check over my work before it gets sent out, it’s more efficient for management to just complete the requests themselves. Is there anything I can do to pry some of that work out of their hands and get them to go through the potentially rough transition period keeping in mind that ultimately it will save them time once I’m up to speed on handling these requests?

    1. This is Me Not Being Me*

      If they don’t want to train you on it and have you do it at first, what if you ask if you could shadow/watch while they _do_ that work so that in the future you would be grounded enough to take it from them? Initially you’d just watch while they did it and maybe spoke of their thought process, then they could start shifting it to you. Since you’re currently under-utilized, that might be a viable approach.

  29. Saying goodbye to a virtual employee*

    Question! I manage an entirely virtual team. One person who has been working with me for years, who I have probably the closest working relationship of any of my team, has put in her two weeks’ notice. What is the appropriate way to say goodbye? I see this person in real life maybe once a quarter tops. There is no office (or other coworkers) to have a cake-in-the-office celebration. I’ve already said how sad I am to see this person go and reiterated what a valuable team member they were, and have said I will serve as a reference. But is there anything else I should do to make this person’s last day special?

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      Would it be appropriate to send something in the post or a delivery of flowers/gift/something?

      1. Nanc*

        I think the flowers or little gift–maybe a coffee card–is a great idea. A hand-written card or letter reiterating how much you valued them would also be nice–I have one from my manager at last job that I still reread every once in awhile.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      My team is also all virtual. It is really odd when people leave–it just always feels very unresolved. Some things we’ve done:

      – Team call where we all share a favorite memory or thing we appreciate about the person
      – “Memory poster” where we all write something nice about the person and then create a nice, well-designed poster that we frame
      – Frame a team picture
      – Memory book with photos and stories/reflections (you can do these for pretty cheap on sites like Shutterfly)

      Also, make sure to remind your team on this person’s last day to reach out and say goodbye!

      1. land of oaks*

        When working with lots of remote colleagues, I’ve seen the leader of a regular team call tell everyone to bring a glass of champagne or other fancy drink of your choice (could also be food treat) to the last call that X will be joining us for. And then at the beginning of the call did a thank you, we’ll miss you, a few people spoke about how great the person was (as Jillociraptor said) and then had a “Everyone raise your glass: Here’s to X!” moment together on the call. It was nice to have that shared moment with folks when we normally never got those moments since we didn’t work in the same place.

    3. TeapotCounsel*

      Maybe you could have a Google Hangout, show a cake and then eat it (feigning sadness that others can’t share). I think that would be funny.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        Or you could turn on the special effects and all have cartoon cake together!

      2. Mints*

        Oh man, or if you could get a chain to deliver cakes to everyone! There’s got to be some cupcake national delivery chains, right? And have it all delivered before a group hangout
        That’s cheesy but I would love it as a final chat (assuming I liked the team)

    4. Snoskred*

      One thing that I would do.. I am a huge sending blank cards with my own writing inside person.

      I would send them a card that repeats the points you have made here. In particular –

      – how sad you are to see this person go
      – that you are willing to be a reference and provide multiple forms of contact eg email, cell phone, mail address especially if those things are not the same ones you are using for your job. eg your private email address vs your work one, that kind of thing.

      I would include a written reference as well, if possible. Just fold it up and put it inside the card, but you can follow it up a few days later with the word document file via email if you like, or say let me know if you want this reference as a document you can print out.

      Hope that helps. :)

  30. Gene*

    Looks like Commuter Kitty is trying to retire. His driver says that he doesn’t head to the carrier with as much verve as before. There were a couple of days he didn’t even bother to come to work.

    But we saw a fluffy, white kitty that didn’t immediately run away this morning. Probably another dumped kitty – the problem has gotten worse since the Animal Shelter moved out here near us. Time to start the taming again.

  31. Andraste*

    A few weeks back I asked a question on when I should give notice when I was worried I would be let go right away. I’m back to update! I did end up giving early notice because I had to submit some employment verification forms for the bar exam’s character and fitness process. I decided the cat would be out of the bag at this point, so I might as well do it. I ended up giving 5 weeks notice and was allowed to work out my full notice period. The whole process went very differently than expected. I got very little guidance on how to transition the work I was doing to a new person and was basically ignored this whole month, but at least I did get paid. Thanks for the advice, everyone. Now onto bar prep!

  32. BabyAttorney*

    I started my new job two months ago. Its a dream, I love it, who gets to be in house at a firm as their first attorney within a year of graduating law school??! Amazing.

    I worry sometimes about my dress. I don’t know if I am overthinking it so I would really love some input here from folks who are attorneys/work with their GCs.

    We have a business casual dress code except when we are interfacing with clients. I usually wear a blazer, button down shirt, and dark slacks or a pants/skirtsuit. I have gotten as “casual” as dark khaki with a buttondown and blue linen blazer. As summer is coming, some of my more “fun” clothing is going to be weather appropriate but I have so little context as to what is okay as the sole attorney in house to wear. I dress more formally than almost everyone here almost out of fear of being judged as immature from people who do not interface directly with my work. I fear if someone thought I wasnt dressed for my position, they wouldn’t say anything.

    Today for example, we are having “derby day” where everyone was invited to dress as though going out to the derby and we are having a derby happy hour tonight. I wore a knee length light blue 50s style linen dress I made with a navy blazer. I felt so nervous coming into work. I usually wear this with a petticoat but left mine at home because I was afraid it would make me seem younger than I already am. =(

    Thoughts? Advice?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      That sounds like an awesome outfit for that type of event. I hope you have a really cool hat to go with it! I think you are overthinking it though. What you’ve described sounds like your dress code, if a little more towards the business side than casual. But kudos for being aware of it!

    2. Turanga Leela*

      I’m interested to hear answers to this. I’m an attorney but I’ve never been a GC or at a firm; my experience is all in government and nonprofits. I usually wear a dress + blazer combo (not a suit). I tend to look more formal than my coworkers, but I also wear more colors and patterns.

    3. wonkette*

      I’m also an attorney who works in a business casual office except when I have formal meetings. If it makes any difference, I work in DC which is a pretty conservative place. Capitol Hill Style, Extra Petite and Memorandum (formerly Classy Cubicle) are great fashion blogs for working women who want to look professional and chic. BabyAttorney, I think your description of what you’re wearing seems totally appropriate though I also share your concern about summer clothes crossing the line into the “too casual” category. I personally would look at how management dresses and follow their example.

      1. BabyAttorney*

        Ah, helpful context! I am also in WDC. I will absolutely take a look at those blogs, thanks! Unfortunately there are literally no women in the C-suite to model after. The woman I report to for administrative purposes dresses a lot more casual than I do…pants or slacks and a blouse, but she has also been here a lot longer and worked with the owners for significantly more time. So it kind of runs the gamut.

        I worry about things like maxi skirts, brightly colored fabrics, etc. I have a few great pieces I’ve made that I adore wearing, like a bright floral cotton midi skirt, but I’m concerned the fabric makes it too casual, even though it may go great with my blazers. I guess I could ask…but that’s a really awkward conversation, especially because I’m not sure who I’d ask. Anyone above the admin report is all men.

        Aside, wonkette….are you an AU alumna?

        1. wonkette*

          No, I’m not an AU alumna though everyone in the DC metro area seems to be a graduate from there or from GWU and Georgetown. You can reach me at mul.kim [at] farmworkerjustice.org if you want to chat privately.

          I think you have good judgement so if you feel iffy about something, you shouldn’t wear it to the office. Personally, I would stay away from wearing maxi skirts. Midi skirts are okay but, as you said, it depends on fabric, pattern, etc. I often think it’d be easier if my office is way formal or very casual just to know what the rules are… so I tend to dress more formally than my peers just to avoid fashion mistakes. I think you’ll find your comfort zone here too.

  33. Ama*

    Ugh, I have just roped a coworker into two conference calls next week *while he’s on vacation* and I feel terrible about it.

    They are both time-sensitive calls – one we’ve been waiting for the other participants’ schedules to match up for six weeks now, and the other was supposed to be today but the other participant is sick. For both calls coworker offered to call in before I could even ask how he wanted to handle it. I did offer to run Call #1 myself and have him write up a list of what he needed me to cover, but we can’t do that for Call #2.

    I tried to schedule them back to back so he could at least knock out the calls and go on with his day (hopefully both calls together will take 90 minutes or less). I feel so guilty because I know I would be furious if I had a vacation day planned and had to call in.

    1. Elkay*

      If it makes you feel any better I just asked someone who is currently on vacation work questions. In my defence he was logged into Skype with no indication that he wasn’t at work today.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      I had to interrupt a 10-day staycation to attend an on-site, half day training. I sighed, but I rolled with it – it was the only time the training worked for everyone else. I think you did a great job of being as accommodating as possible, and clearly your coworker gets that it’s part and parcel of working on time-sensitive projects. Don’t beat yourself up over it!

    3. Jen RO*

      If it makes you feel better, I wouldn’t be furious if I had to do this on a vacation day :) It would be inconvenient, but I’d be happy to help.

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      This kind of stuff happens sometimes, and there’s nothing you can do about it. There are times when I’ll take a day off and then check email at least once, if things are in a hit-the-fan mode at work. Once or twice, my boss has called me on a day off to ask me something (always apologizing profusely) and I’ll talk to her for a few minutes to answer her question.

      Yeah, it’s supposed to be a day off. On the other hand, for the most part I really like my job, I have an awesome boss, and I get a lot of perks. Like I’m allowed to flex my schedule when necessary so I can do things like volunteer at my daughter’s school one morning a month. When things are in a lull period, no one cares if you duck out early an hour or 2 early here and there, because everyone knows that we’ll more than making up for it when a project is ramping up or getting ready to launch. Many people don’t have that kind of flexibility and supportive management — reading this blog has taught me just how lucky I am. So if I have to sacrifice 15-20 minutes a PTO day once in awhile, to me that’s a fair trade-off.

      1. Ama*

        Thanks guys. I spent way too long in a work environment where I had to set some very strict boundaries to protect my off hours, and though my current workplace is far better about it, it still feels weird to infringe on someone else’s off time.

  35. Amanda*

    I’m looking to switch careers after earning a master’s degree in data science (well, I graduate in six weeks). A position opened up at my company, and I interviewed for it. The HR recruiter then contacted me to let me know that it would require a pay cut (since it’s dropping a level, which makes sense since I am new to this field and all of my work experience is irrelevant). Any thoughts on how to negotiate this, or if there is any room to negotiate this? She basically said they’d put me at the top of the pay band for the role but that’s all she can do. It would be a $15K/year pay cut.

    1. fposte*

      Generally, how much you’re willing to negotiate depends on how much you’re willing to go elsewhere. What’s the logical open market rate for somebody with your credentials, and how does it compare to their band? Does your previous experience really bring no extra value to the new role? Are you willing to trim your life back to fit into $15k less a year?

    2. College Career Counselor*

      Perhaps you can negotiate a six month review/earlier than normal review to try to move to a higher pay band, given your prior experience with the organization? It’s not a slam-dunk, but it’s worth a shot. Can you negotiate to keep/expand other benefits (time off)?

  36. Darth Admin*

    My work culture is nonprofit, pseudo academia/government. I have a direct report who thinks she’s a superstar but isn’t. She’s a good employee, but has places where she needs to improve. I have discussed with her those areas that need improvement, but she either a) disagrees with me that improvement is needed; or b) comes back in three months, having changed nothing, and insisting she’s improved. At this point, I think she is not capable of the improvements I have asked her to make.

    That would be fine – as I said, she’s a good employee at status quo, but not great and she does not have the chops to move up without improvements. However, she continues to think she’s a superstar. I’m struggling with how to mitigate her expectations of and complaints about not receiving promotions, bigger tasks, etc. I’ve told her that she needs to do X,Y,Z before such things will happen, but she’s not hearing it and the complaints continue – and are expanding to include her coworkers’ raises, promotions, etc.

    How do I politely tell her to either make the improvements or stop complaining? I’m rapidly approaching bitch-eating-crackers stage and every script I come up with in my head has a tinge of “shut up” in it.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      I think it’s time to be more blunt with her next time she complains, something like: Princess Leia, I have told you multiple times what you need to do in order to get promoted yet nothing has changed. I don’t want to hear about this again until you have done the following: XYZ. And then shut her down every time she brings it up afterwards. “Leia, have you done XYZ? Then I don’t want to hear it.” My former boss actually fired his assistant because she wouldn’t shut up about getting promoted but she messed up every chance he gave her, yet still complained.

    2. Adams*

      Have you asked her why she thinks she’s improved? What specific examples can she give that shows she’s improved? It might be interesting to see if there’s a disconnect and it could help you explain your view.

    4. some1*

      Agree with Lily – give concrete examples where she fell short on your expectations:

      “I told you I expect a 24 turnaround on TPS reports, you have met that goal 40% of the time in the last quarter.”

  37. Carrie in Scotland*

    I had my first ever long distance interview this week.

    It was…interesting. It seemed like the normal interview process was amplified, simply because there was all the things I had to do (get there, stay over night, find the right train, find the actual interview place etc) and I had to remember to bring things with me because it wouldn’t be like popping home to get it.

    I have another interview next week – I think I might prefer this one, even though it’s a 12 month fixed term position but this would mean that if I hated living there, I could leave somewhat easily.

    1. Traveler*

      I agree with the amplified bit. It makes in town interviews seem like a breeze in comparison.

    2. TheLazyB*

      Yeah I had that recently. I wrote myself a checklist in case it happens again :) hope it went ok? All good practice :)

  38. LizB*

    I sent in two job applications today! I redid my resume and wrote my cover letters all based on advice from AAM, so here’s hoping they work. :) I’m really excited about both positions. One of them was an online application, though, and made me enter tons of info that was already on my resume, full contact info for references, and salary history for each job I put in my employment history. It was irritating, took forever, and just makes me feel discouraged — I feel like I’m going to mess up on some answer or check box and get weeded out by the system, and no human is ever going to look at my application. And I really want the job. We’ll see how it plays out.

    Now, on to write more cover letters!

    1. Ailsa AbuDhabi*

      Online applications that make you retype everything on your cv into endless tiny boxes are the absolute bane of my life! They make it so much harder to apply, and it must make it so much harder for the person on the other end to read as well. The absolute worst.

      Good luck!

  39. College Career Counselor*

    Had a job interview earlier this week–it went well, but of course I don’t know what the rest of the applicant pool is like and whether the decision-maker will hold my particular set of skills and experiences in higher regard than someone else’s. However–I am very happy with what I said and how I said it (regarding both content and authenticity), so if I don’t get an offer, it’s because someone’s a better fit than I am and not because I didn’t bring my “A” game to the interview.

    Higher ed interviews at a certain level are a special kind of fun. Mine was approximately 13 hours in duration and included group interviews, fielding questions while touring campus, panel interviews, and three meals with various stakeholders while being in “interview mode” the entire time. Probably had interview conversations with close to 30 people (which makes thank-you notes challenging). The longest I ever spent interviewing was 2.5 days once. I’m curious to hear other people’s most gruelling interview stories–what was the longest interview, the weirdest scenario (pretty sure party planning/cooking for 40 people is the outright winner), the strangest question you had?

    1. This is Me Not Being Me*

      Wow. I thought my 4 hour interview was bad! (As an aside, I sent my follow-up note to the hiring manager and included that I really appreciated getting to meet with the various team members and enjoyed talking to them. I didn’t try to follow up with all the team members, although in this case I had sufficient info to work out the contact info for all but one.)

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Absolutely. I replied to the decision-maker and the chair of the search committee (not the same person in this case) and asked them to forward appropriately.

    2. K*

      Foreign Service.

      The interview was a full day long. Three parts.

      One part was a fairly standard situational interview, but with some seemingly odd scenarios, like “a major typhoon is heading for the country in which you are assigned. what do you do?”

      The second part was a one on one role play where you had to discipline an employee for poor performance.

      The third was a group exercise. They took everyone who was interviewing that day, put them into a room, gave each a project to advocate for even though there was only the budget to fund one, and let ’em have at it.

      A panel of future colleagues sat in on each part, so there was quite the audience…

      Oddly, the scenarios seemed really weird at the time, but proved to be scarily appropriate in time…

      1. College Career Counselor*

        I’ve had that one, too! Definitely surreal having the fly-on-the-wall observers watching the group interaction. I was the youngest person interviewing there that day (from what I could observe/glean from the conversation) and had NO real work experience to draw from.

        I use some of the weird situations from that interview when talking with students about “difficult” or challenging interviewers. As an example, I had one interviewer close his eyes, lean back against the wall apparently nod off while his interview partner told me “I will be staring at the clock on the wall behind you to time your answers.”

        That was a less than fabulous interview experience for yours truly. But very instructive about rigid government interview processes and certain kinds of bureaucrats.

    3. Traveler*

      My record # of interviewers was 9 for the whole process, 8 in a day, and 6 at one time sitting across from me. This seems pretty common now, but I still remember my younger self who thought a panel of 3 was intimidating. I’ve had them last up to 9 hours in duration. Weirdest scenario? Not so much weird, but I’ve been asked a lot of taboo and overly personal questions. I’m surprised at the frequency actually, even though I shouldn’t be given how many people seem to struggle interviewing.

      As an aside, I’ve been on the other side of this in the “stakeholder” group with campus interviews and I felt so much sympathy for people put in this position. It has to be so exhausting. When we did our candidate feedback/reviews I just wanted to write extra points for being “on” for that many hours in a row without flubbing it.

    4. Stephanie*

      Yeah…mine are nowhere near that bad. I did do an interview for a higher ed job where it was me and seven people on conference call.

      I had seven back-to-back one-on-one 30 minute interviews once (with no lunch)…and then I had to hop on a plane back home.

      I also did two (at the same company) in college where I did about five back-to-back interviews (including a couple that were technical interviews) and then had to go to dinner with the hiring manager afterwards. I had to be “on” for like nine hours. It was exhausting.

    5. Shannon*

      Academic interviews are marathons! Generally mine (for faculty positions) have been around 12 hours long, often including all 3 meals, walks around campus, meeting faculty, administrators, students, giving a presentation on research, teaching a class…it makes me tired just thinking about it. Probably the most stressful was doing it when I was breastfeeding, so they had to add breaks into the schedule for me to pump, and then everyone wants to know why you have “down time” built in. When I’ve flown in for them, they also often include dinner the night before, but I’ve been lucky to not have any multiple-day interviews.

      Good luck!

    6. BRR*

      None of mine were terrible. My current employer was the longest. 30 min phone screen, 2nd round 2 hour skype interview (it was inperson or skype depending on your location), final round 9:00-3:30 with 1 hour lunch and 1 hour skills test.

      BRR interview tip, take an Imodium if it’s a long day or if you get an upset stomach from worrying.

    7. Anon. Scientist*

      A bunch of former coworkers were at one firm that I also wanted to move to, but they didn’t have any hiring plans and the rest of the firm was starting to feel like the “my former workplace” faction was getting a little too large/powerful. So they scheduled me for a 9-hour “meet anon. Scientist” non-interview to decide if they would open a position. then, when they did open a position a couple months later, I ended up having a 8 hour “real” interview, four hours of which consisted of semi-hostile/aggressive questioning (think of a PhD defense) to assess my technical/scientific chops. there was a definite “well, some people here like you, but you’ll have to prove yourself to ME”.

      i don’t think the other candidates had such a hard interview. But it allowed me to really stand out because I maintained composure under fire and showed that I did really know my stuff.

  40. AnonToday*

    Another question – anyone else have a peer progress very quickly and feel resentful about it? I’m struggling with this right now. I have a former teammate who has received a promotion each year he’s been at the company. I don’t begrudge him those promotions – he works hard, he’s smart, but I wouldn’t say he’s THAT much of a rockstar. What he is good at is getting his work in front of the right leaders who love him, and that has helped him progress very fast. He’s now at a level above me, and while I’ve gotten numerous accolades and raises, I have been told to continue to develop in-role and be patient for my promotion. I feel a bit demoralized knowing that someone with half my years of experience has surpassed me and I feel a bit guilty about those feelings.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      I get it, but promoting yourself if a skill in itself. And it looks like he’s great at it. Unless you are willing to toot your own horn, then I think it’s normal that this would happen. I know it sucks; I would feel so weird talking about how great I am and how hard I work, but the people here who do that tend to get more recognition.

    2. Jessie's Girl*

      Totally understand. I’ve seen someone who started out below me (and at the same time as me) toot the biggest horn (while simultaneously complaining about his job) so much that he was promoted (but still to a position above me). From where I stood, he was barely working but he was also the kind of person who took 10 minutes to praise a boss about every little thing and my bosses ate it up. It made me pretty nauseous to watch.

      However, unfortunately, he kind of imploded on himself and his promotion and now most people don’t want to work with him, which made me laugh and almost balanced out the year of annoyance.

  41. Ms. Ineedanewjob*

    Does anyone have tips on how to discuss salary when being interviewed by a panel of three people? My first interview with the 3-person panel was two weeks ago. They didn’t bring up salary and neither did I. My second interview is next week. Two of the people who interviewed me last time will be present, and there will be a new third person. Salary always seems to me like it should be discussed one-on-one with the hiring manager or HR person, so I’m hesitant to ask about salary during my interview (if they don’t bring it up) since there are multiple people.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      You shouldn’t be discussing salary in an interview unless they bring it up. Wait for an offer.

      1. erd*

        I don’t think you have to wait for an offer to discuss salary. Honestly, I’ve been fortunate enough to always have it in the posting, in the phone interview, or before the second interview. If you are employed already, why would you want to waste your time interviewing for a job that might not meet your salary requirements?

        Ineedanewjob – I would during scheduling of second interview if it’s not brought up (but that window’s already passed for you) or scheduling of 3rd interview if they choose to do one.

  42. Mimmy*

    I’ve been waiting for this all week!! Looking for higher ed folks, especially any instructors / faculty.

    On Monday, my classmate suggested I look into online teaching as an adjunct. While it’s not something I’m ready to dive into just yet, the idea is intriguing. Other people have suggested this to me in the past. She specifically suggested applying at the school where we’re taking classes together (online, but the school has brick-and-mortar classes too).

    So….I’m just looking for some nuts and bolts info:

    I know I don’t need a PhD to be an adjunct; I do have a Masters and am working on a Graduate Certificate that I hope to be done with by next Spring (I’m only taking one class at a time).

    What are some of the pros and cons of online teaching?

    Any special skills or training that I should have or get? How about previous teaching experience?

    How would I even prepare?? This idea wasn’t on my radar when my friend suggested it. She was all “GO FOR IT!!” I love her, but one step at a time!

    I do know that many adjuncts feel that they are not paid well and doesn’t always offer steady work (if I’m wrong, I apologize), so I would never count on this being my sole job.

    I appreciate any insights you may have!

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      My dad is an adjunct online teacher for a brick and mortar school. My alma mater, in fact. He likes the online when the class is a favorite but hates it when it’s not. He teaches contemporary religion in america and philosophy. He loathes philosophy. So consider that you might not be teaching something you are very interested in.

      It does take a consistent time commitment. Reading responses. Responding to responses. It’s more than just grading a paper. I’d say it’s even more work intensive than a face to face class. But there is freedom that you don’t need to have papers graded before you see them face to face next time. So, flexibility is good.

      Pay will depend on where you live, size of institution, your experience and need for your subject area.

      1. AdjunctGal*

        It’s a decent side gig, but when it’s all you have (like me), it can be terrible. Don’t do more than one course at a time if you can help it. That said, Southern New Hampshire University I have heard does well by its online adjuncts, so check them out.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Asynchronous classes take just as much prep and other work (done in a different format) as brick-and-mortar. Expect to work just as hard with the online version of the class (and have different challenges managing student information/response/participation).

      2. Persephone Mulberry*

        But there is freedom that you don’t need to have papers graded before you see them face to face next time.

        I’m not sure I get this comment. If anything, students doing online coursework are MORE rabid for getting grades back in a timely manner, specifically because there’s not the built-in “before next class period” window. It falls under the umbrella of responsiveness, which is one of the few points on which online students can judge the quality of their instructors.

        1. fposte*

          Yup. We teach online and brick and mortar, and you have to hand back stuff to the online students every bit as quickly. Online is if anything overall more time pressure rather than less.

          1. Anx*

            As an online student, I do appreciate a decent turnaround time. One of my classes has weekly projects that all build on skills from previous weeks’ assignments. I don’t begrudge the slow turnaround time because I am sure graded them is very time intensive, but it is really unnerving to be submitting 2-3 subsequent projects that include one skill when you haven’t got any feedback yet. There’s less opportunity to learn from any mistakes.

            Without face-to-face activity, that feedback is even more important.

        2. Ann Furthermore*

          I agree. I got my MBA through an online program at a brick-and-mortar school, and each class in the program was 8 weeks long. For the most part I really enjoyed the program, except for one instructor who was terrible about getting assignments graded and returned. We would go 2-3 weeks without seeing anything from him. In an 8 week class, that’s a significant chunk of time. There’s not much time left to course correct if you’re doing something that’s negatively impacting your grade. I finally complained about it to my faculty adviser. Things improved, but not much.

      3. rphillips*

        I’ve only seen this from the student side, but I agree on the need for a consistent time commitment. I had an online professor completely flake out on a class I was taking once. We had the syllabus, so we continued to try to meet its expectations, but the professor was conspicuously absent for multiple weeks at a time – no posts, no responses to questions – it was bad. I finally reported her to the administration because we had a final paper coming due and she wasn’t around at all to field questions about it. She eventually showed up again, but even then mostly failed to engage with us. It bothered me that I paid tuition for that particular experience.

        1. Mimmy*

          I hear ya. The professor for the class I’m currently taking is the same way. Not nearly as bad as yours, but in the past month, she has not been on the boards much, and hasn’t assigned any new readings since April 13. The readings are available in their respective weekly modules, but I have no idea of anyone is even reading ahead. I think most of us are focused on our final projects, due at the end of the month.

          Yup, my tuition dollars at work! :/

    2. LisaS*

      Whether or not you’ll need a PhD will depend depend on the institution and its requirements for faculty – most regionally-accredited schools will have guidelines for non-tenure track hires that apply whether you are teaching online or in the classroom. Generally speaking, the idea is that regardless of modality, learning outcomes should be the same, so faculty qualifications will be too. And keep in mind that many institutions have a pretty large pool of would-be adjunct instructors with PhDs to pull from.

      I prefer teaching face to face but I’ve done both & find that the time commitments are pretty similar. Depends on how the online coursework is structured, but monitoring/responding to forum posts etc can suck up vast quantities of time if you do it carefully, and I found I spent, if anything, more time following up on students online than in the class. Having said that it is challenging & fun if you go at it with the right attitude, so good luck!

    3. Shannon*

      I taught as an adjunct while in my PhD program and am now on a full-time faculty line. If you have never taught before, I might recommend starting with a face-to-face class. I could be biased because that’s the path I took, but I felt seeing the students in person allowed me to get more immediate feedback about what was working and wasn’t–body language is a wonderful resource. And it allowed me to focus during the first few times I taught a class on the content and not the technology, which I appreciated.

      Without a PhD, adjuncting is unlikely to turn into a full-time gig (and even with a PhD, it can be hard to do, depending on the field), but if you’re interested in the experience of teaching and supplementing your income, it can be worthwhile. Good luck!

      1. Mimmy*

        Silly question, but why would I need to focus on body language for online teaching? Is video lecturing a common aspect?

        1. Shannon*

          Oh, sorry that wasn’t clear! I meant that you can get feedback from the students, via their body language, regarding what is working for them–what they understand, when they need more information, etc. There’s also more opportunity for informal interactions with them which can help create relationships and ensure you’re getting an accurate sense of how the class is going.

      2. BRR*

        This is going to be an obnoxious add on but adjuncting rarely turns into a full time gig. Overall and especially at the institution you’re adjuncting at.

        1. Shannon*

          And paradoxically, it can be difficult to get a full-time gig without at least some time in the classroom!

          Not a system that makes much sense, for sure.

    4. BRR*

      Pros: It’s teaching and money. You can set your own schedule to a degree.

      Cons: It’s not a lot of money. No job security. It’s typically more work because you need to make up for no class participation. For everybody I know this has resulted in much more work to grade. Also some people record presentations. This takes a long time to do. Many don’t enjoy not having the in person time.

      1. BRR*

        I also know a couple people who have done it who don’t enjoy that their classes seem to be divided into high performing students who need the class to be online to facilitate their schedules and low performing students who signed up so they could attend class in their pajamas.

        There have also been instances of international students signing up for classes who really struggle and it’s difficult to help them online.

  43. Sabrina*

    Need to vent. My boss left last week and it was not pretty. He left due to issues with his management and pretty much everyone on the team was (is) on his side about it. So now I’m a bit worried that a lot of folks are going to leave for better jobs, management will replace them VERY slowly, and I and a few others will be left behind to take on the extra work. I just wish I had better options. :(

  44. Bekx*

    :( My dad got let go yesterday. He had only been there 6 months, it was a small business, and they weren’t exactly happy that they were paying him as much as they were. He’s bummed out about it, but he really hated working there. He liked the work, but the owner was horrible and my dad would feel sick going to work.

    He went to his old job, which he liked but wasn’t paying very much, and in the door was a “Now Hiring” sign. He went in, asked his old manager if they were hiring and the old manager practically jumped for joy. He was hired on the spot and they thanked him for making their day.

    So it’s bittersweet. He’s sad he got fired, but he’s happy that he was wanted at his last job with such fervor. I’m glad too, because he’s an awesome guy and doesn’t deserve to be miserable. Just wanted to share that sometimes when one door closes, another one opens!

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Oh, I’m so glad things worked out! I was so bummed out for your dad until I kept reading.

      1. Bekx*

        Thank you! I was actually really worried at first. He had texted me and said “Got a new job. Back at Teapots Unlimited. Had enough of Kettles Inc.” so I thought he had a personality change and blew up at his boss or something!

  45. Sarah Nicole*

    Any Registered Nurses here? I’ve been considering making a career change and have come up with a list of jobs I would love to do. They all involve much more physical activity (think law enforcement, nursing, farming, some retail) and the ability to help others in some way I find meaningful. Just want to know if there is anyone able to give me some quick tips, advice, things you think others should know about the profession.

    Also, has anyone made a career change and has gone back to school as an adult to do so? I specifically am considering a second bachelor’s degree. Has anyone here done this? Thanks for any advice!

    1. Judy*

      I’m not an RN, but just last week at the doctor’s office I ran into a former co-worker who is now an RN. She was in purchasing at a former employer. She went through an RN program at a local community college a couple of years ago and is just now starting an RN to BSN program at a local university. She said she’s been happy with the transition.

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        Thank you very much, Judy! I have been told by a few people that I should just bypass the ADN and go straight to a second bachelor’s since mine is recent and it should take me about the same amount of time the ADN would, but this is another option to consider! I appreciate your comment.

    2. Nurse-To-Be*

      I’m a nursing student, just finished my first year, and I’m also an adult who has made a career change and gone back to school. I’ve spent the past twenty years in the hospitality/tourism industry, working here in Canada as well as in Africa and the UK. After all this time, I decided I needed to do something more meaningful with my life, that was, as you said, more physical and more hands-on in helping. So…back to school as a 43-year old!

      I’m doing my RN degree in two stages. I’m currently doing the two-year college diploma for the Registered Practical Nurse, and then will be able to work as an RPN while I upgrade and do my RN degree over the next 2 1/2 years. I couldn’t afford to spend four full years in university and remain unemployed, so while this works out a bit longer overall, I will only be a poor student for two of those years.

      From my experience to date, nursing is an incredibly physical profession – you really do need to look after yourself first. It’s an incredibly hard program as well – very demanding (as it should be), a LOT to take in, and very time-consuming. Don’t underestimate the amount of time you’ll need for studying….I go to school full-time, and hold down a small part-time job of around 15 hours/week…the rest of my time is, quite literally, spent doing homework and studying. You need a good support system from friends/family, and you’ll need to get a good small group of fellow students to help each other through this.

      Going back to school as an older student has been much easier than I thought. I intensely disliked school the first time around, and was worried I would have difficulty this time. But I’ve found that I have far more motivation and discipline now, and am a far better student now than I was 20 years ago. There will be other older students as well, so you won’t be the only adult returning for a career change. I’ve also found that I have far more confidence stepping into our first placement rotations as a nursing student, due to the fact that I’m older and have ‘life experience’ – don’t underestimate how much your previous experiences (no matter how irrelevant they may seem!) come into play as a nursing student!

      Good luck with your decision! I will say that I never in a million years expected to find myself in nursing school (my mom is a nurse, and even she was shocked and surprised when I made this decision), but I absolutely love it, and it’s one of the best changes I’ve ever made!

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        Wow, thank you so much! Yeah I’m still pretty young, so I feel like it wouldn’t be a big surprise to anyone that I’d be going back to school. I’m 25 and have a degree in music – I honestly did intend to use that full-time, but I do work part-time now. My FT career is in marketing and I’m beginning to feel burnt out, which is crazy since I’m young and should feel excited with all the opportunities I have ahead of me. I just figure this is not the career for me. I also am starting to feel like being chained to a desk all day is killing me slowly. Ugh, I need to move around!

        I appreciate your advice! I was a good student the first time around and graduated with honors, but this would be a drastically different type of study than I did before, so I know I’d need to make sure I can really buckle down! Good luck in your new career. I appreciate the insight.

    3. LisaS*

      If you’ve already got a BA/BS you might look around & see if there’s an accelerated RN program locally that you can pursue. One of my housemates did that a few years back – she had her undergrad in kinesiology from Cal Poly & did a 1-yr RN program in nursing. She was beyond full-time with it though – between class & clinical postings it was 6/7 days a week for that entire year.

      Another thing to think about, instead of a 2nd BA, is a master’s program in whatever field you’re interested in. Master’s programs have the advantage of being a)shorter and b)more intellectually challenging, as the coursework isn’t scaffolding the same learning-to-learn skills you get the first couple years of a BA… they are a lot more focused, too, as you don’t have to do all the gen ed requirements (or deal with 18-year olds in group projects. I like teaching them, but boy, they’d drive me nuts if I had to take classes with them!).

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        Hi, Lisa, thank you! Actually the only master’s programs I could get into would be music, teaching credential/ master’s, or an MBA. I don’t want to pursue music or teaching as a career anymore, and the MBA would help me advance in my current career, but that’s not really what I want to do. I guess I’m just considering more education if it is to make a complete career change, and at this point would require another bachelor’s degree or vocational training.

        Thanks for the tips, I’m looking into a program that would get me a BS in nursing without having to do the full 4 years over, so that would be ideal! If not, I could start with the associate’s degree like Judy suggested. There are a couple of really great programs locally, so I’d be totally set.

        Also are you in CA? I’m in SoCal. :)

        1. LisaS*

          Yep. I live just up the street from Mt St Mary’s, where my housemate did her program. And good luck with whatever you choose – I went back and did an MA in adult ed at 40, which was a great move for me in a couple of directions I hadn’t anticipated.

          1. Sarah Nicole*

            That is very encouraging! Thanks so much. I always felt like we’re supposed to know what we want to do and go to school for it early on, but that just seems so wrong as I get older. I’m just now finding out what my calling is at 25. I love hearing how older people go back to school. My mom is 55 and is in college for the first time in her life. I’m so proud of her!

    4. Jake*

      My wife is an RN and my step mother went back to school as an adult to become an RN after being a police officer for 18 years.

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        Wow, sounds like you have a family dedicated to public service! That’s awesome. :) Does your wife enjoy being an RN? What type of education has she received? How long has she been doing it?

        1. Jake*

          She has a bachelor’s degree or nursing and has been an orthopedic/neurology nurse for 2 years. She loves it and hates it. It is extremely stressful, and it requires amazing time management. However, she loves being around the blood and guts and is extremely interested by the scientific/academic aspects of nursing.

          There are days she would rate being a nurse at 0 and others at a 10 without many days rated in between.

          1. Sarah Nicole*

            Sounds awesome, lol. I’ve heard similar things – the rewards are worth the “0” days for a lot of people. I feel like that would be true for me, too. Thanks for the info!

            1. Jake*

              The one thing I’d say is that if it is the science of nursing and health-care that interests you, make sure to go for the bachelor’s. The associates degrees teach you all the necessary skills, but not really the science behind what you’re doing.

              If you’re in it to help people, go the shortest allowable route by your state’s licensure body.

              1. Jake*

                A caveat, many hospitals are going to a “bachelor’s prepared nurses only” standard, so research your area well before signing up for anything.

                1. Sarah Nicole*

                  Great advice, thank you so very much! I will be sure to look into all of that with my local programs.

    5. Kate*

      I am an RN with about 10 years of experience. I would recommend pursuing a BSN rather than an ADN, because many hospitals (in my area, at least) are focusing on hiring BSN prepared nurses. In fact, my hospital won’t consider hiring anyone without a BSN (although we have plenty of ADN nurses that have been grandfathered in). If you are planning to work during school, you might look into becoming a pct (patient care tech) at a hospital that you are interested in working at. I’m not sure about the requirements for that position because I went to college right out of high school, but I do know that my hospital offers tuition reimbursement, so we have many pcts that are in school and are gaining experience, and who will eventually work at the hospital.
      I very much enjoy being a nurse, although it does have its challenges, as does any job. Do you have any specific questions?

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        Kate, thank you very much for your response! That’s yet another person telling em about the BSN, so second Bachelor’s it is! Two of my friends have told me the same, so that’s the way I’ll have to go. Also thanks for the advice about the PCT, I’ll look into that!

        I would like to know a little about your experience with bullying and the whole “doctors treat nurses like crap” sort of thing I’ve heard and read about. I’ve heard the same thing about being in the military, but have never experienced it, so I’m wondering how prevalent some of these things are. I know lots of people have probably experienced them, but what is your personal interpersonal relationship experience in nursing?

        1. Kate*

          Gaah! Tried to reply and the site froze, so pardon me if this posts twice!! I can honestly say I’ve never been bullied by a doctor. I’ve had a few doctors reply in a rude tone, especially when I was calling in the middle of the night, but that is the exception, not the rule, at least where I work. I have worked on the same unit for almost 8 years, and have established a great rapport with the doctors I work with. I have heard that surgeons are much worse to work with, but I don’t have any OR experience, so I can’t speak to the truth of that.
          I have recently seen articles talking about “the dirty side of nursing” that tell stories of hazing and bullying. I’ve never seen anything like that, although I have worked with nurses that actively exclude others from their inner circle (think sighs when asked a question, eye rolls, gossiping). Those nurses are very much in the minority though. Most of the nurses I work with are caring, helpful, and great people! If anything, you become closer friends because of the long hours and stressful work. I think as with any field the culture can vary from place to place. Hope that helps put your mind at ease somewhat!

          1. Sarah Nicole*

            Kate, I just realized I had forgotten to come back to check for a response! Thank you so very much for your advice. I appreciate your candor and encouragement!

  46. J. Quackadilioso*

    Hello all! How much or how little do you recycle cover letters for multiple positions at the same company? The place I’m applying to regularly posts openings for similar positions — Teapot Inspector, Spouts Division; Teapot Inspector, Handles Division, etc. My qualifications for all of these are pretty much the same — experience as an inspector and demonstrated expertise in teapot-related issues. I can put in a sentence or two about why spouts or handles are specifically interesting to me, but beyond that there’s not a lot of customization I can do to each particular posting. Will it look weird if I submit very similar cover letters to like 8 different positions? I don’t know if hiring for these positions is handled by the same or different people.

    1. Ailsa AbuDhabi*

      Is there any way you could find out who’d be in charge of hiring for each position? I would think if you can get to talk to somebody on a personal level about being interested, an “I see you have several suitable positions open and I’d love to be considered for any of them” would be the best bet.
      I do think it might look a little weird to submit all but identical applications for each separate job in short order – especially if they see that you put “I’m very enthusiastic about a career in spout decoration” in one and “Handle shaping is my particular passion” in another. But it might also be an opportunity to experiment with changing up the style and structure of your usual cover letters, and you can get some good ideas and a bit more zing into them by doing that sometimes.

    2. Sara*

      I pretty much recycle the entire thing, since every job I’m applying for is the same job. (I’m an elementary school teacher.) If I have some connection to the school or district or there is something very unique about the school I’ll try to work that in, but the “look at how my previous experience makes me amazing for this job!” is the same for every school, even schools in the same district that use the same HR office. (This is also partially because I’m relatively new – 2nd year teaching – so I don’t have as much experience to draw on. Eventually my letters might vary more…but hopefully I’ll be in my forever school by that point anyway.)

  47. Stephanie*

    Haven’t heard back from a (sort of) internal interview. I’m a contractor at the company, so I was interviewed as an external candidate. Waiting’s agonizing, but I’m just assuming I didn’t get it. Emailed once as a followup after the initial timeframe passed and didn’t get a response. Haven’t gotten an official rejection and position is still listed as open, but no clue how they do rejections.

    Would it be ok to email for feedback at this point? I’d like some, if possible. Thought maybe it could be ok since I’m already working there.

    1. Adam*

      I think it might be ok to email again if a fair amount of time has passed and the position is still listed. What’s the company (hiring) culture like? I once interviewed for an internal position that I ultimately didn’t get and they never officially said anything to me. They just hired the candidate they wanted and that was that. Hopefully you have better insight to how that whole process works than I did. Good luck!

      1. Stephanie*

        Company’s pretty stodgy, rule heavy, and slow-moving, so it would not be completely out the realm of possibility that I’m still in the running. The hiring culture does seem to be all over the place, though–someone in my department did get an offer and transferred in like the span of two weeks. Boss had no clue why they would take so long (and he was the one who urged me to follow up).

      1. Stephanie*

        Interview was almost six weeks ago. My last follow-up was two weeks (about a week after their original stated timeframe of two weeks).

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s definitely been a while, but I think I’d still hold off until you can tell for sure that they’re not hiring you. If you’re still in the running, it’ll come across oddly to ask for feedback about what you could do better next time. (And good luck!)

    3. Megan*

      I think you might want to wait until you get the official rejection. If they are still considering you, it might seem weird you assumed you didn’t get it. Just a thought.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      May Day! May Day! I forgot to bring flowers to work or to wear in my hair!

    5. Vanishing Girl*

      Hooray! I should have taken PTO today, now that I think of it.

      When I get home, I’ll have to do some protest singing instead. :D

    6. Jen RO*

      It’s a national holiday here, and I was out on vacation on Monday, so big yay for the three day work week!

  49. Serin*

    What are everybody’s best networking tips?

    I’m not looking for a job now, but I probably will be in a couple of years. In my last job hunt, I met a lot of people with great contacts and great ideas, and I just want to keep those relationships alive.

    1. Adam*

      Periodic friendly professional check-ins go a long way I think. Maybe just email them every three months or so to maintain open contact and see how things are going as well as update them on where you’re at. Maybe share interesting articles that you know pertain to their field. Networking is mainly about communicating, so if you make it clear those communication lines are open without being pushy it should help keep your network live.

    2. Florida*

      I like to meet people for breakfast or lunch. That might not be reasonable if your offices are on opposite sides of town. But if they are close, contact the person every few months and ask if they’d like to meet for lunch to catch up. If coffee or happy hour suits your style more, that works as well.

      Also if you ever have information that might be useful to the person, send them an email and let them know.

  50. Treena Kravm*

    In an interview, how do you go about finding out how raises work? Not necessarily the % or anything specific, but in general how increases in compensation typically work.

    For instance, my current non-profit, your review has 10-15 categories and for each you get a Excellent, Great, Satisfactory, Needs Improvement, or another one that was the equivalent of a 1 on a scale of 1-5.
    If you got all Excellent, 4% annual raise; all Great, 4% raise; all Satisfactory, 4% raise.
    Needs Improvement, 2% raise.
    Only if you got a 1, then you would not get a raise. Nobody ever gets a 1.

    To me, this system tells me that there is a culture where everyone knew you didn’t have to try very hard to be compensated relatively well, which I saw ring true in many other areas of the org. In the future, I don’t want to work at another place like this. After typing it all out, I realize that the raise situation is a symptom, not the cause. So what are some questions to ask in an interview that will give you information on the level of expectations an employer will hold you to?

  51. LOtheAdmin*

    Hey everyone!

    I was laid off from my old, icky employer before Christmas last year. It was emotionally devastating for me after spending months swimming in BS.

    But, as of yesterday, after months of unemployment and over 10 interviews to find a good match for me, I have finally accepted a job offer with a company with a ton of career potential.

    I owe Alison and the commenters on this site big time. This place gave me hope when I had little, useful and practical knowledge when I had none, and it showed me what to look for in a good manager.

    I’m so happy to be working again, and I’m even more happy that the man I’ll be reporting at this job is to nothing like the guy who laid me off.

    So, again, thank you Alison and everyone here for the bits of knowledge and much needed laughs at a time where I needed it the most.

    PS I start Monday. :-)

    1. Sarah Nicole*

      Ooh, congrats! Do you have anything special planned this weekend to celebrate? I hope you have a relaxing couple of days before your new adventure!

      1. LOtheAdmin*

        A pancake breakfast and a morning on the golf course is all I want. Should be leaving for that in about an hour. Yay!!

  52. T*

    I’m wondering if any, hmm, more “established” readers have any advice about how to tough-it-out during the early shitty parts of your career? I’m in my first job in my field of study and some days I just keep thinking that I made the worst choices ever. I’m working part-time in my field and part-time in retail and I’m just hoping that I can get enough experience in a year and a half to get the proper amount of experience for a full-time job somewhere in my field, but some days I just feel so negative. My job itself is fine, but I wish I studied something more stable like accounting instead, you know?

    Maybe I’m just being a baby, but any advice/encouragement would be welcome.

    1. Nanc*

      I think I qualify as this year I’m celebrating 40 years of working! Full disclosure: I have a BA in Liberal Studies and an MA in Humanities and I now work in technology. Past careers in Parks and Rec and Higher Education. Go figure. I spent a good part of my career working more than one job because that’s what it took to live. I will say I was lucky that my second job was always something I loved doing, but wouldn’t love doing full time. Maybe you need to look at finding a different second job besides retail–unless that’s an industry where you can potentially meet good contacts for your desired field. What do you love as a hobby? Reading, maybe your local library needs part-time shelvers. Crafter, artist, knitter, fitness expert–can you teach a class for your local parks and rec? Love wine, maybe a local vineyard or tasting room needs part-time help. Education, is there a tutoring center in your area that’s hiring? Musician, how about teaching lessons?

      For your field of study, are there any continuing ed courses you could take to learn new skills, refresh old ones, just be with folks who are in the field? Are there LinkedIn groups or other online communities you could join?

      If it’s any comfort, I think your feelings at this stage are pretty normal. You’ve finally gotten the hell out of school and you’re ready to apply those skills, and it’s not happening as fast as you desire. Find a way to focus on obtaining the experience and the full-time work without obsessing about it.

      Good luck and keep us posted.

    2. Clever Name*

      In my field, pretty much everyone starts out doing fieldwork. And often the work is in unpleasant conditions. Outdoor work in all types of weather. Physical work. Tedious work. Sometimes it really really sucks, but it’s really important to have experience in it for stuff you do later. And the kind of odd thing is that the people that are the best at doing fieldwork seem to do it less than people who just plod along.

      Think of the early tedious work as laying the foundation for higher level work.

    3. AnonResearcher*

      I’m only a decade into my career but I have a management position and make six figures so I hope you’ll consider my advice as well.
      The beginning of my career SUCKED. I was figuratively crapped on by jerks at every job I had for the first several years. I did my best to soldier through it but there were times I wished I could just marry into money or become a stay at home parent and give up working all together.
      Now I’m actually glad for those crappy years, I am stronger and better for it. I developed a tough skin and direct no nonsense approach to work which along with developing my expertise in an in-demand field, has secured my employment doing work I love. I haven’t even applied for a job in 5 years, employers head hunt me on a weekly basis…
      The early years are bad, but push through. Those experiences are what’s preparing you for the good parts to come!

  53. Amber Rose*

    How do I say “that’s not my job” without sounding lazy and checked out? Or “that is my job” without sounding like a jerk?

    I’m in this weird position where I told people that I’m doing X and Y and learning Z, but I get basically everything about everything except X and Y. I’m asked to order parts when I know nothing about procurement. Or do NC reports when my boss specifically doesn’t want me in Quality. Or complaints about WHMIS, and while I’m in the safety program I know next to nothing as I’m still training and the safety coordinator should be handling that.

    Worse, I then get “Sally usually does this but can you get the documents for this teapot?” Which IS my job, and I want people coming to me for that, not Sally. I’ve literally been studying and revamping that process for a month (got it down fron a 2 hour process to 20 minutes because i’m awesome). I know more about it than her now.

    1. Ama*

      Do you know who they should be contacting for the things that aren’t your job? I’ve found a polite redirect that includes the correct person’s info works well: “NC reports are actually Wakeen’s job, I’ve cc’d him so he can help you” (or if that’s not an acceptable practice “here’s his email if you need it.”

      For stuff that is yours: “I’m actually the point person in that area now, so I’m happy to help.”

      But it really sounds like you might want to suggest to your boss that an all-staff update on everyone’s general responsibilities might be in order, if everyone’s this confused.

    2. Mike C.*

      Whoa, if you’re not QA, you don’t touch NCs. There’s a reason for a wall, and if you’re in a regulated industry that’s going to piss off a lot of people.

    3. Mints*

      I think that offering the first step makes you seem helpful without doing anything. So if it’s an email, you forward it to the right person with like “Hi Bob, Sally actually manages teapot handles. Sally, could you help Bob review the handle report?” If it’s in person, I’d probably offer to send an email anyway.

      The reverse is harder though and I don’t know how to get Sally to send work back to you unless she works fairly closely and you can talk about it.

    4. Jessie's Girl*

      I usually say, “Sure, I’ll ask Wakeen, who’s in the Teapot Department to handle.” Or, “No problem, I’ll forward this to accounting.”

      That way, I still look helpful but Mrs. Jackson knows that I’m not the one who’s going to take care of her problem.

  54. To Interview or Not to Interview?*

    A friend of mine has been wanting to work with me for a few years (we work in a similar discipline and have similar philosophies on said discipline). There is an opening at his current company, and he knew I wasn’t super happy with my current company last we spoke. I’ve changed jobs twice in the last 12 months and I’m reluctant to jump ship again, but he encouraged me to apply and speak to them anyway.

    I figured it couldn’t hurt, so I had a phone interview with his boss and their HR manager. The call went well, and they’ve scheduled an in-person interview for next Friday.

    I’ve been talking it over a lot with my husband and honestly, unless they offer me buckets of cash, I probably wouldn’t be willing to jump ship. The company is similar enough to my current one in terms of size, work approach, and client work, that I don’t feel like there would necessarily be a great advantage to moving. And it would permanently mar my resume with job-hoppiness.

    After thinking through it more, I’m not sure I should go to the in-person interview–it might be a waste of their time and mine (a 4 hour interview). I’m worried that my friend might be upset if I bowed out of the process now, and I don’t want my bowing out to reflect poorly on him, since he gave them my resume.

    What do you guys think?

    1. costume teapot*

      If you aren’t happy with where you are now, isn’t it worth figuring out if the other company has a culture that fits better with your personality? Worst that can is your waste four hours. Best case, you might end up with buckets of cash in an environment you love.

      1. To Interview or Not to Interview?*

        What I was hating about this place was a lot more client-specific. After I raised the red flag, my senior management worked with me and the client to try to make things suck less. It’s still a work in progress, but my boss has basically said that if I hate working with the client, he’ll take the account and assign me some other clients to work with. So the place I’m working now sucks much less than it did a couple of months ago–I haven’t seen this friend much as things were improving, so he’s not as up-to-speed.

        But your thought isn’t bad either–what’s 4 hours of my life? And I can always say no after that if it doesn’t turn out to be something I want to jump ship for.

    2. Jessie's Girl*

      Don’t back out of the interview, it could burn a bridge that you later find out you don’t want to burn.

      You don’t yet know that the company isn’t one you’d like to work for, an interview begins your processing in finding that out. And there’s nothing to say you’ll even be receiving an offer or that you have to accept it if one comes.

      Also, there’s nothing saying that you have to list every job you’ve had on your resume. Think of a creative way in explaining a gap and x one out if you want.

  55. Writing on the wall*

    I wrote in at some point (I’ll post the link below) about how my company was bought out a little while ago, and the type of work that I did (development) for the old company is done overseas by the new company. My bosses have clearly wanted me to take over more client-facing project-manager-type work, since that’s what most of the people in my office do, but that’s not what I want to do. Shortly after I wrote in, one of the bosses – well, I guess he’s not technically my boss any more, but he was the owner of the old company – asked me point blank whether I wanted to do more client work or keep doing development. And I told him, honestly, that I didn’t like dealing with clients and I’d rather not. At the time, his focus was on freeing up my overworked coworker, so he just said something like “OK, then we’ll find or hire someone else to take over X projects, no problem” and that was that. Well, this week I had a call with him, and the writing is basically on the wall. I’m not getting enough work in from my current projects to fill all of my time, and since the company has a lot of overseas resources doing the same kind of work for much cheaper, it’s not cost-effective to put me on other projects. It sounds like I either need to go to the client side or… go.

    My preference is go. I’d already been looking around a little, but now obviously I’m going to need to step it up. And since the boss is being so clear about it, I’d like to go back to him and actually tell him that I think it’s time for me to look elsewhere, though obviously I’d like to stay employed while I do so. He’s a good guy, not the kind that would immediately show me the door, so I think he’d be willing to work with me as much as he can.

    Has anyone else ever done this? How has it worked? What kind of arrangement seems reasonable to work out? I’d ask him to be a reference, obviously (which would be great, since this is the only job I’ve had doing this kind of work). But is there anything else I could offer or ask for?

    2. BRR*

      There’s a post on here about transitioning out. But it’s about the manager side of things. I will link to it in a reply.

  56. CrazyCatLady*

    I seriously feel like I’m the most neurotic poster here, ever! I have a huge inadequacy complex. I get interviews at pretty big and awesome companies and then end up canceling the interview (not burning bridges, but just explaining that I’ve decided to stay in my position for now and wish them the best of luck in filling the position, etc.). I know the reason is because I’m scared once they meet me, they’ll think I’m nowhere near as good as my resume makes me seem and that I’ll just make a fool out of myself. To be clear, if I thought the interview would go well, I wouldn’t mind ultimately being rejected because I know there are loads of talented candidates out there. So, it’s not so much the rejection. It’s my own internal judgement of how foolish and stupid I’ll sound, which makes me feel humiliated. I’ve tried practicing and practicing and practicing for interviews but feel like I just come across as stilted. If I don’t rehearse or practice, I am a mess. I can’t think of answers to questions, I answer questions inadequately, I use “we” to describe things “I” did, etc.

    Anyone else do these stupid things? Any tips besides working on building my confidence?

    1. Amber Rose*

      That sounds like my anxiety. There’s nerves/low confidence, and then there’s fear to the extent that it interrupts your life.

      For example, I joined a martial arts class. I’ve been 10 minutes late because I stand in the hall hyperventilating and wanting to go home. All that, for something I really have fun with and enjoy. But I am afraid of looking stupid so I end up in a blind panic.

      I urge therapy, but if not, try telling everyone you know you’re doing this interview. Tell yourself, “I am doing this.” Make a pact with a friend that you won’t cancel without their permission. Then ignore the fear and go.

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        Good for you for joining martial arts in spite of your anxiety! Mine makes me cancel on everything all the time :(

        I definitely have anxiety and sadly, have been in therapy most of my life. I’ve just had some more serious issues and traumas that I’ve spent most of my time working on that I’m just finally starting to address this. In fact, since I’ve worked on my more serious issues, I think I even have more anxiety because there’s less distraction and I’m more aware of my own behavior.

        I totally do tell everybody and ask people not to let me cancel too! But I end up doing it anyway and because I have a job, no one gives me too much crap about it.

      2. Colette*

        The fear of looking foolish is pretty common, as I’m sure you know. A couple of years ago I was waffling about going to yoga I. The park u til I realized that the worst case scenario involved me not finding the class after going for a walk in the sunshine.

    2. LizB*

      This is silly, but one thing that has helped me is reading all the wild stories AAM gets about terrible, terrible candidates. I may have confidence issues, but hey, at least I wasn’t terribly rude to the front desk staff when scheduling my interview! At least I’m not going to send them an invoice for my time when we’re done! At least I didn’t write them two ragey emails with ALLCAPS and exclamation points!!!! about how their online application system sucks! At least I didn’t straight-up lie about having a college degree!

      Interviewers see tons of resumes and tons of candidates, and I’m sure they all have some weird stories. Even if you’re not the right fit for the job, or they’re not impressed with your responses, it’s basically guaranteed that you’re not the worst or weirdest person they’ve ever interviewed. They know that a resume is a marketing document that’s going to emphasize exactly what the candidate wants it to, they know that people get nervous in interviews. There’s no way you’re the most WTF person they’ve ever had across from them, and the letters AAM gets can confirm that.

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        This is really helpful, thanks. I have actually read those stories too with much pleasure and they definitely do help me. And I’ve been on the other side of the table and know that candidates aren’t always perfectly suited for the job or able to articulate why they’d be good at it… so I should be less hard on myself.

    3. Colette*

      So if they met you and thought that you weren’t as good as your resume says, what would happen?

      The answer of course is that you ewouldnt get the job.

      What happens when you bow out of the interview?

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        I would feel awful and rejected and like I’m a loser and ugh, just so many things I don’t want to think.
        I feel a sense of relief when I bow out of the interviews and mentally, I feel like at least they didn’t have to be disappointed by me.

        1. Colette*

          What if you said to yourself “I’m not going you get the job, but I want to know more about it so I’m going to go in and see what they have to say”?

          Alternatively, what if you stopped applying for jobs? I suspect there’s a limit to how many times you can do this before they stop calling.

      2. College Career Counselor*

        If they invite you for an interview, they think that you can do the job. They’re looking for fit, which may not help the interview performance anxiety, I realize.

        I do not wish to minimize your anxiety in any way, but it does sound like in this case it manifests as a particularly virulent strain of Imposter Syndrome (as it relates to performing in an interview). But, it may help for you to create a pre-interview mantra: “I have a job, I’m good at it, I know my stuff, they WANT me to interview with them, and this is just a conversation about things I’m good at.” That might help re-frame things somewhat.

    4. Mimmy*

      I’m pretty neurotic too, so you’re not alone!! I get excited about potential opportunities, then wimp out. I might’ve canceled an interview or two, but that was YEARS ago. I do get some of those same concerns though. My fear is imposter syndrome.

      I will definitely be following this thread :)

    5. april ludgate*

      I’ve had similar anxiety problems, and it’s so terrible when you feel so self-sabotaging all the time. I’ve just practiced forcing myself to do things that make me anxious and they never turn out as badly as I think they will. Then I have those times as examples for when I’m psyching myself out again in the future. But if you’re getting interviews, you’re going into a room of people who already think you’re qualified and who are looking forward to learning more about you and your skills. They’re not judging you or out to get you (if they are, you’re better off not working for them!) they’re people who have gone through interviews and understand how nerve wracking it can be. Also, I’ve found that sometimes, in the moment, I just completely transcend my anxiety (kind of autopilot) and then freak out afterwards. Definitely consider talking to a professional therapist, though, they can give out great tips for dealing with anxiety, what you’re describing isn’t uncommon and you’re definitely not alone!

  57. Nerdling*

    Does anyone else work in an office where dealing with the Keurig is apparently too much to ask of people? Monday morning I had to refill it and remove used K-cups from the machine twice before I managed to get my tea and oatmeal done. I already know that my coworkers will just laugh me off if I bring it up (I like them, but sometimes I wouldn’t mind throttling them), so I could use some advice on how to Zen out every day. It’s not worth getting cranky every morning before I’ve even had caffeine.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Not the Keurig, but we have one person in our tiny office who doesn’t do her damn dishes. She also doesn’t replace the paper towels or the toilet paper roll. She recently suggested to another co-worker that we get an expensive blender for our office so she can make smoothies, and my response was, “Is she going to f***ing clean it?” (Yup, I’m so courteous and professional.)

      No advice, but what I would do is exactly what you’re doing and try not to get too resentful about it. Think of it as the price you pay to get that delicious cup of caffeinated goodness.

      1. Ama*

        In my current office, we’re mostly pretty good (I think it helps that 90% of us have some admin support and/or event planning background, so we’re used to being the ones who handle little details for others). But when I worked in academia it was *awful* — we couldn’t even get some people to put dirty mugs in a nearby sink so *someone else* could collect them for washing.

        But your story about the blender makes me laugh, because while in academia one of my bosses brought in a fancy Nespresso machine with one of those milk foaming chambers. I knew cleaning it would wind up being my responsibility (and since some of my coworkers worked on weekends I was envisioning starting Monday mornings with sour milk smell) so with his permission I just told everyone that we didn’t set up the milk feature.

        1. april ludgate*

          Ditto to the academia messes. The dean of my department had to email everyone asking them to clean out the microwave if their food splatters. Once, in a level of passive aggression I haven’t seen since my college roommates, one employee once pulled all the spoiled food containers out of the fridge and left them on the staff room table all day so people could “claim” them, which caused the staff room to stink to high heaven for days afterward. The same person hid the dish drying rack when people weren’t putting dishes away quickly enough. It’s ridiculous, really.

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      Not a Keurig but some people can’t follow instructions as to how to fill out forms!

    3. Viktoria*

      in my office we all remove the used cup from the previous use and fill as needed. I take it you’re expecting people to remove their used cup after they finish? Maybe you and your coworkers are not on the same page, protocol wise.

      1. Nerdling*

        I guess that’s possible. Doesn’t help that I don’t actually USE the K-cups (I have tea bags), so nobody has to throw away my trash; I only have to throw away theirs. I’ll try to focus on me being the weird one on that issue (they can still take the time to refill the daggone water, though).

    4. Lily in NYC*

      We had to get rid of ours because jerk coworkers kept stealing the coffee. All I can think of is to put up a passive-aggressive sign near the machine.

    5. K-Cup Woes*

      Sigh. Yes. Despite signs all over the kitchen that ask people to throw away their used K-cups after making coffee, I never find the Keurig empty and awaiting my coffee-making pleasure. I know it’s not a big deal for me to throw someone else’s K-cup away, but I also know it’s not a big deal for someone to throw it away themselves.

      1. Shortie*

        The Great K-Cup Debate is interesting to me. I throw my own away because there is a little sign reminding us to and because I know others expect it, but it is more logical to me to throw the previous person’s away. Maybe my brain works backwards, but when I throw my own away, it’s still hot and dripping…even if I wait a minute. I’d rather each person throw the previous person’s away so they’re completely cool and no longer dripping. That said, I wouldn’t want a K-cup to sit in there all weekend, so Fridays would have to have a different a rule, which would get confusing. Okay, maybe I just changed sides! Ignore this comment, ha!

    6. peanut butter kisses*

      They might not be throwing it out because those Kcups are so hot right after you brew your cup of coffee. They might be thinking that they are going to wait a while for it to cool down before taking it out.

      1. peanut butter kisses*

        Oh – and then forgetting about them, like I forgot the last sentence of that post. Oops.

    7. Jessie's Girl*

      Suggest getting one of the Keurig’s that clears the slot when the top is opened. Then you only have to empty it when the reservoir is full.

  58. Outta Here*

    I just signed an offer letter for a position at a new company! I’m very excited! My question is, in an exit interview, how much is appropriate to share? I’m essentially leaving my current position because my relationship with my new boss is simply unmanageable. But I’m not alone – I know for a fact that more than half of the our (small) staff is looking for work, people are contacting labor lawyers and there is a group considering going straight to our Board of Directors since the senior management is refusing to deal with the issue. I want to be honest, but not mean, and I don’t just want it to seem like sour grapes. Any advice?

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Hm, this is tough. Most people I work with would say nothing and pretend everything was hunky -dory. I’m a bit of a mouthy broad so I would probably say something (but I would be much more diplomatic than usual). Something like: I really don’t want to get into this too deeply, but the main reason I am leaving is because of Manager’s poor management and the fact that nothing is being done about it even though it is glaringly obvious there’s an issue.
      But if you need them for a reference, I wouldn’t say anything.

    2. the gold digger*

      There was nothing nice I could have said about my old job, so I just refused to do an exit interview. No good can come from being honest about negative things.

      1. Windchime*

        This is how I feel about exit interview. They didn’t care about any of the issues the first (or second or third) time I brought them up; why would they suddenly care now? So I declined to do an exit interview when I left my last job.

    3. misspiggy*

      It depends on whether you think the person doing the interview will listen. Big changes can come for your remaining colleagues if that is the case.

  59. Calla*

    Well I think we have a counter-offer success story!

    My girlfriend has been a home health aide; she’s been looking to get out of it. 2 weeks ago she got an offer for a temp-to-perm position through a staffing agency and accepted. Her employer had been trying to get her to stay, but she was clear that she wanted out of the HHA thing. This week, they came back with an offer: work in their main office as an HR assistant/scheduler, full time and permanent, with benefits, matching the salary from the other position (which is nearly 2x what she was making as an HHA). The commute to this job is also way better than the temp-to-perm one, and she does like the people who work in the office, so it’s also not as much of an “omg new job” shock.

    I told her normally you don’t take a counter offer, but their offer resolved all of her concerns (job change, salary increase) with some added perks. So she took it! It also has the bonus of boosting her confidence, I think–the manager said the other people in the office had been telling her to offer the position to my girlfriend. :)

    1. LisaS*

      Congratulate her! And yeah, it’s good to hear that negotiating works – I thinks it’s the approach you take, and it sounds like she handled it really well by making it clear it wasn’t just more money she was looking for but different work, which they were in a position to offer. So a win for both sides as opposed to a loss for one…

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      I think if your reasons for leaving are more about dissatisfaction with the role rather than the company, and the company is willing to address that, then it’s a little bit different than when the company just tries to throw around money/title changes to keep you. I also gave my notice what is still my current company, and I told them it was because I really hated doing X and could not stomach doing X anymore. So they said “well, we really value what you bring to the table, so what if you didn’t have to do X?” and they created a new position for me that was much better tailored to my skills and interests.

      Disclaimer – in my case I didn’t have another job lined up yet, I just needed out. But if they had said “what if we pay you MORE to keep doing X,” I still would have walked.

  60. Stemmie*

    I’m a summer camp administrator at a non-profit that runs several different camps and programs. We receive some government funding to run my camp for teens for free, so we don’t charge anything for that one. It’s really important for the program funder that we max out attendance and leave no slot unfilled, and to that end, discouraging applicants from flaking out is a priority. This should be easy – the activities are very popular (and have some academically prestigious cachet that looks good on college applications), there is very limited space at camp, and last year, we accumulated a waitlist that was easily used to fill a last-minute cancellation.

    However, I’ve been butting heads with my boss, because boss’ flakeguard of choice is a substantial deposit to hold each camper’s slot – i.e. camper gets accepted, parents send deposit check for $X00, campers who actually show up to attend camp get their check returned, and campers who bail lose $X00. The loss is purely theoretical at this point; campers can cancel their registration up to a week before camp, and I have the authority to waive the deposit requirement for applicants in need. (If we did collect, the non-profit would just absorb it to fund our other non-govt.-funded programs.) But I wonder how many people are looking at this camp and then turning away when they see the deposit requirement. I grew up without a ton of money, and I know my parents would have been reluctant to possibly lose $X00 for me to go do this “free program” in high school, not to mention suspicious enough of the demand in the first place that they wouldn’t have even let me apply. Last year, the only kids who attended came from wealthy suburbs – we had only one low-income applicant, but he chose a different free program even after I waived the deposit.

    With government funding involved, are there ethical or legal issues with asking for this attendance deposit? What are better guards against flaky attendance than a deposit? And parents/educators: if you saw a free government-funded program requiring an anti-flake deposit, what would you think of it?

    1. Chana*

      I don’t know the legal issues but as a kid in a family without any money, we would’ve specifically been looking for free programs. If we saw that there was a deposit required, not only would we not have been able to afford it, but I think we probably would’ve assumed it was a scam. “It’s totally free, but give us $x00 and we pinky-promise we will give it back to you!” sounds sketchy.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yup, as soon as we saw a deposit was needed, even if fully refunded, we would have moved on to something affordable.

        And I would have assumed the $100 check was cashed, and then then refunded, so that would really mean that money needed to be available.

    2. LizB*

      As someone who works with low-income kids, I think the deposit is likely discouraging kids from applying. Teens know how much their parents can afford, and if they see that a camp is going to make their parents hold $x00 dollars basically in limbo for months, many of them aren’t going to apply for that camp. If any families are living paycheck-to-paycheck, it’s unlikely they’re going to have the cash for the deposit, and even if they do, their circumstances may be unpredictable enough that they can’t risk losing it if someone gets sick or they get evicted or anything else happens. Also, if you’re not publicizing that the deposit can be waived, it’s unlikely families will ask for a scholarship. I don’t know about the legalities or ethics, but I think it may well be losing you potential campers.

    3. Treena Kravm*

      I can’t speak to the legalities, but ethically, this is really crappy. As others have mentioned, many low-income teens/families will self-select out because they can’t afford it. I grew up upper-middle class in the tri-state area and I self-selected out of expensive ($1k-4k) summer programs because it would be asking too much of my parents.

      And I know you didn’t ask this, but I have to say it. The fact that your free camp is filled with wealthy teenagers is a major problem. I’m sure that funding doesn’t exist to get rich kids great opportunities for free, even if it’s not specifically required for them to be low-income. I would seriously push back against the deposit, but also push to increase your outreach to lower-income schools. Guidance counselors there would LOVE to give theirs students these types of opportunities.

      As a citizen, I would be horrified that this is how government-funded programs are operating. They way your org has it set up, our tax-dollars are subsidizing rich kids getting one more leg up and purposefully ignoring the kids who need these types of programs.

      I’m also confused as to why you need an system to prevent flakes if the wait list is long enough that you’ve never had to have an empty spot.

      1. Stemmie*

        Oh believe me, I’m right there with you against subsidies for rich students – I’ve been saying it to boss and coworkers plenty myself. Coworkers are with me (and their programs serve needier populations way more effectively) but boss is boss. It really boggles my mind that he doesn’t see the problem of the deposit. Applications have been open for about a week and all I’ve got are apps from tony places again. If another week goes by the same way, I’m pushing again. Do you (and other folks, definitely would love more input) have other ideas besides simply keeping the waitlist, which we’re doing deposit or no deposit? And what other policies do program directors out there have in place to prevent people from flaking on a free program?

        Re: the “never an empty slot,” this is only the 2nd season it’s been running, so it’s tough to say we’d fill it year after year, but yes, it’s a small enough program that the waitlist should override the need for a deposit. This was a major point of contention between us last year, too. I’m actively hunting for another job, so I might not be around to see how attendance shakes out. But I’m hoping I can at least solve the deposit problem before I go.

        1. Treena Kravm*

          Honestly, I would just gather a lot of research about low-income teens/families and show it to your boss in a very matter of fact way. Low-income teens who “flake” on a free program are usually doing so because they have to work instead. I just listened to a great presentation about how a historically black college is trying to get more black students to study abroad. They have 3 spots every year for a 100% covered semester abroad (tuition, room/board, flight, visas, everything covered). A big factor is that they work 30 hour/week and send home a majority of the money they make. So even if they get it for free, their family is missing out on that $150/week.

          Have you been asking why people flake? Do they just not show up? Can you contact them and ask? This could reveal some barriers that you weren’t aware of. For instance, is public transportation to the program easy? (Car broke down, can’t go anymore) Is lunch provided? (Mom said she would pack me a lunch, but most days we don’t have enough food) Are you providing adequate information about the program, how it works, what it’ll be like? (Low-income teens who haven’t had a lot of experiences outside their neighborhood find it really intimidating to even go across town on their own to the rich side of town to the college campus.)

          The thing is, your boss doesn’t sound like he wants to actually work with low-income communities. He sounds like he wants to be a white savior-type, and offer the program, but if they can’t do it, it’s not his problem. I would try like hell to get him to understand that he’s literally keeping these kids out because he refuses to understand where they’re coming from.

          Honestly, the most successful program participation rates I’ve seen have included incentives. Even a $10-15 card at a sandwich place for every week they attend, it’s something. Or, if you don’t have the budget, you can get stuff donated (products, gift cards, etc.) and each day they attend they get a raffle ticket, and at the end of the program, there’s a drawing for the grand prize.

          Also, I never mentioned this because it seems obvious, but do you confirm at any point? Like they sign up in March, and til June, do they hear anything from you? Letter home, or phone call? Can you check-in a month or so before the program starts and fill from the waiting list? Maybe just having a system in place for moving people off/on these lists will make the boss feel better about the lack of a deposit.

          Last case scenario–can you put on the actual flyer/material something like “deposit can be waived if requested” and then waive all the deposits from the lower-income kids? And then maybe even collect a couple of the richer kid’s deposits and use those as incentives as I suggested above.

          Whew that was a lot, hope at least some of it was helpful!

    4. aliascelli*

      I am also not a fan of the deposit. Would your boss consider creating a waitlist instead, to buffer against cancellations?

      1. Stemmie*

        We’ll be keeping a waitlist once we have enough applications. In addition to keeping a waitlist, what are some other tools I can use to ensure filled slots? (Besides a deposit, obviously.)

    5. fposte*

      Rawr. This is a bad thing.

      My guess is that the funding program would be pretty horrified, and that you might not get money from them in future.

    6. Sara*

      I teach in a high-needs school and I wouldn’t even bother sending home the flier for a camp that had a $x00 deposit (even if it was refundable as the OP describes). My kids’ parents/guardians don’t have that kind of money lying around for a camp deposit, and I’d be concerned about whether the refund claim was actually true or not. A waitlist is a much better idea.

      1. Stemmie*

        I used to teach in a high needs school as well, and I had the same thought as you when the deposit came up, i.e. “Who can I even publicize this to now?” I do remember students really needing to drop things at the last minute all the time, though, so what other things can I do to guard against program dropouts?

      2. Stemmie*

        …I ask because I’m not sure I can get boss to budge without an [apparently] airtight solution.

    7. Betty (the other Betty)*

      Another reason that low income families may not pay a deposit: What if something happens and they have to move or the student can no longer attend? Even if the family can afford to set $100 or more for a short while, the risk of losing that money may be too high.

  61. Xarcady*

    So, I’m temping while looking for work. I just started a new temp job for the next 6 weeks, and possibly longer. However, the two people I’m working with are so busy that they really do not have time to train me on much. I’m getting one tiny task per day, which, after a week of this, is filling up about 10% of my time.

    The project is one the company picked up after another company told the client, sorry, we’re breaking the contract mid-year, good luck. So there are a lot of problems and issues and fires to be put out. I’m here to learn some of the day to day stuff so the other two can focus on the big stuff.

    I’ve read all the documentation they’ve given me. I’ve cleaned the office, dusted the desk and bookcase, sorted through the papers my predecessor left behind, straightened out the mess of cords behind the computer, emptied the overflowing trash bin. I’ve temped for this particular company a lot, so there’s not much to learn about the company as a whole. Now what do I do? There’s a bit of software I can explore a bit more, but what on earth do I do to appear busy where there is literally nothing for me to do? (I suspect in a week or two I will have more work, as they will have trained me on more things, so this is a short-term problem. I hope.)

    Another way to look at this is, just how much internet surfing can I get away with?

    1. fposte*

      I had one temp job where I read a book a day. I think that looks marginally better than having your phone out, so maybe that.

  62. accounting princess*

    I know you shouldn’t arrive too early to an interview, but what if you really have to pee? I have an interview in 25 minutes and there are no public restrooms nearby. Can I arrive 10 minutes early, but ask to use the restroom first??

    1. Delyssia*

      10 minutes early seems fine to me, and I don’t see a problem with asking to use the restroom. And good luck!

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Yes! This is perfectly normal practice, as far as I’m concerned. I used to always arrive about 15 minutes early, check in with the front desk and ask for the ladies room. It’s kind of expected that we will want to check our faces and hair, adjust the outfit, change the shoes, etc.

      My office is open plan and small, so early arrivals can be a bit uncomfortable, but if someone came in and asked to use the bathroom first, I wouldn’t blink an eye.

  63. Viktoria*

    I’m looking for input of how to organize/allocate duties. I am one of 3 employees in a small company whose tasks overlap in several areas. We all answer phones, do online customer service, place orders, track shipments, and provide quotes. Basically a combination of inside sales and customer service. We each also have some tasks unique to us- for instance, one person handles all returns, And I handle the invoicing and banking. Part of my role is also to try and figure out how we can work more efficiently.

    Currently we all just do everything and communicate via IM to “claim” tasks. We are in 2 offices in different time zones. It works ok for the most part, but things tend to fall through the cracks and it creates a lot of inefficiencies.

    What is a good way to divy up tasks like these? Should we assign each task to one person, whose job it would be to make sure nothing is missed and assign the incoming items to others as needed? My boss’s idea was to alternate days- for example, on Mondays I would be responsible for all shipments. I don’t know that that would work particularly well.

    Any ideas?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Have you ever used Asana? It’s a group planning/execution tool. You can assign an owner for the overall task, and for each subtask. I think now you can also tag someone in follow up notes, even.

      So you can have a master “project” that’s the Smith Order, assigned to you. You would create the subtasks for “provide a quote,” “confirm order,” “create shipment,” whatever the steps are, and assign them to others. You can all add notes to the “project” so that everyone knows that Smith requested expedited support, or their contact is SUPER longwinded or whatever you need to know to collaborate effectively on the order.

      My gut thought is that you’re going to have the best outcomes if one person is the “point person” for each overall order, even if others are responsible for discrete subtasks. It’s really hard to coordinate by committee!

      1. Viktoria*

        Cool, I will look into Asana! That sounds interesting. thanks for the suggestion!

        The nature of the business is that we have 50+ orders per day, and only a handful require more attention than just our routine tasks. So while it might make sense to “assign” those orders to one person, the majority of our orders would have to be handled a little differently. But I think something along those lines would work best.

  64. SevenSixOne*

    Want to take a survey about what your work schedule is like?

    I posted this here about a year ago and thought the results and discussion about it were fascinating. I’m not doing anything with the results but satisfying my curiosity, and you can see the results when you finish.

    Link in the reply to avoid moderation hell :)

      2. Jen RO*

        Also, this comment goes against everything I’ve hear about French people: “It is impossible to leave at 6 here in France. It would mean being lazy.”
        Everyone says they are out the door the second the clock strikes 5! (Except for my coworkers in Paris. They stay late and forget that their late is even later for me!) [Sorry, French people. I guess my friends have had bad experiences with your countrymen.]

  65. NurseTeachy*

    Hi everyone!

    I’m a new adjunct prof teaching nursing clinicals. I’ve been a nurse for a long time, and teaching has been going well (it’s basically just precepting with a few extra people), but I have one problem student. Any time I pull her to the side (to an empty, private room) to privately speak with her about issues with her performance, she bursts into tears. She even hyperventilates. I tried to discuss how that behavior is an issue, and she burst into tears at that. I’m at a total loss. She’s not young, either, she’s one of my oldest students, nearly 30. How do you give feedback to someone when they hyperventilate and weep every time? Have any of you dealt with this? None of my other students have had any issues like this when I give feedback. The feedback can be as simple as “it’s not great that you forgot what the medication did in between getting it from the med room and giving it to the patient” and the waterworks begin. As far as I know, nothing is going on at home with her that would cause this overreaction (I asked her).

    1. Xarcady*

      Well, having been a teacher myself, sometimes students react like this because it gets them out of the discussion about what they did wrong.

      If that’s the case here, I’d just continue on with what I had to say.

      But it could be that she just can’t take criticism of any kind. In the nursing profession, I would think that would be a liability. In your shoes, I’d talk with other instructors and see how they handle this type of student. If they can give you any pointers, I’d try them and see if anything improves.

      But if nothing improves, I’d talk with the head of the program about this student. In her professional life, she’s going to have doctors get upset with her, patients get upset with her, patients’ families get upset with her. She really needs to learn how to control the tears and hysteria, moreso than in many other fields.

      1. fposte*

        Agreeing with Xarcady, especially on the head of program thing. Also, it’s fine for you to keep going even if she’s weeping and hyperventilating. Give her a minute, and if she doesn’t get it together, keep going and follow up via email.

      2. NurseTeachy*

        Thank you, Xarcady! I appreciate the advice. I think I was stymied by it, and did not continue until she had calmed down. I then let her tears convince me into a lesser consequence than I had originally planned. I am unsure if its because she does not want to have the discussion or if its due to not being able to take criticism. I have spoken with the head of the program and her theory faculty for both this semester and next semester, so she (hopefully) won’t squeak by, but I really appreciate your advice on not letting it get to me and just continuing as needed.

    2. Treena Kravm*

      Aside from the hysterics, is the feedback you’re giving normal, or is she not doing as well as the rest of her classmates? Because she’s older, I’m inclined to think that she’s realizing that her career change might not have been the best plan. If I’m correct, clinicals are towards the end of a nursing degree correct? Where all the info you’ve been learning comes together and you treat real patients? She’s probably realizing this is actually what nursing is like and she’s not as up for it as she wanted to be when she first started on the nursing track.

      1. Anx*

        That’s what I wondered, too. This could be a second degree, largely funding out of pocket or by loans. At her age, I imagine she’d afraid this is her ‘last chance’ to get a toe-hold into a career.

        If the feedback you’re giving her is normal or not a career breaker, is there a way you could let her know that? You shouldn’t have to do that, but I wonder if she’s panicking that she’ll never be able to make it as a nurse or that she’s incapable or that her instructor doesn’t think she has what it takes.

        1. NurseTeachy*

          It’s funny you say that, Anx – one of the things she said to me while hyperventilating was that she didn’t want me to think she couldn’t do it. At the time, I dismissed the comment as her not recognizing that the feedback was not about me, but was about nursing skills in general, but after reading your comment, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. The problem is that while some of the feedback is normal, some of it is because of things she should be able to do by this point. I should definitely be more clear on which is which, though, you are absolutely right. It’s so odd to me to think that a student would be more worried about my opinion, since I don’t really consider myself to be anyone particularly important – I’m acting more as just an experienced nurse who knows what the field requires, just like any nurse would/could. You’ve really shifted my thinking on this!

      2. NurseTeachy*

        This is a second degree for her, but clinicals are done throughout the course of a nursing degree. In this case, this is her third semester, and I am unsure how she managed to squeak by in her last two clinicals. However, this is definitely the first clinical where students are more independent and are encouraged to “take on a patient” on their own (though the assigned RN and I are both there still and working with the patients as well). I really appreciate your perspective – honestly, it has been so long since I graduated, I’ve forgotten how the thought of “not being good enough” to be a nurse can get to you. That may very well have a lot to do with this.

    3. the gold digger*

      We were doing training about how to give feedback and were doing role plays. I was the employee getting the negative feedback, so I started crying and moaning and trying to play on the “boss’s” sympathy.

      He was having none of it. He did not alter his tone. He did not acknowledge the tears. He just paused, asked, “Are you ready?” and continued with his very factual recitation of the problems and what I needed to do to fix them.

      I was in awe of his approach.

      1. NurseTeachy*

        Holy crap, your boss is a hero. I want to be him one day, because that is exactly how I wish I could have handled it.

    4. Jennifer*

      My guess is that she’s been traumatized by someone else in her past and now freaks out.

    5. Sara*

      What is your tone and body language like when you’re speaking to her? I ask because I had a supervisor in the past who went into her “angry stance” whenever she gave feedback, so even when her word choice was completely appropriate, it looked and sounded like the employee had started a chain reaction that would lead to the end of the world. Make sure you are calm and that your body language and facial expression convey that, too.

      1. LisaS*

        I always try to sit next to someone when I’m giving negative feedback or questioning them about something they are doing that”s not as effective as it should be. That way we can look at whatever it is together and the whole eye contact issue becomes easier, plus I feel less like the principal of their elementary school and more like someone with whom they can work together to make improvements/get coaching or whatever needs to happen. Too, when it’s time for one of those talks, it can be helpful to have a pad of paper that you can both make notes on… Maybe that could work?

        1. NurseTeachy*

          Hm, these are both good points. I was sitting next to her at the time, but I think I may come off as harsher than I mean to be, because I am from the east coast and I’m teaching on the west coast…and the stereotypes are definitely true, my first year here I was constantly accidentally insulting people when I thought I was just being normal and to-the-point. I’ve been here long enough now that I don’t really think about that any longer, but I was rarely put in a position to give feedback before I started teaching, so I might not be appropriately softening my body language to fit this coast.

  66. Lindsay J*

    Pay question.

    I am hourly, non-exempt. Live in Texas. I work for an airline, but am not flight crew (might be relevant because I think the rr act governs some aspects of airline pay, but AFAIK not mine). Non-Union.

    Basically, I think they are doing weird things with my pay which lead to me not being compensated fully.

    I’ll explain using hypothetical numbers.

    Say the base hourly rate for my position is $10.
    I work night shift, which pays a shift differential of $1.
    And I attended training for a specific skill, which leads to a $1 pay increase.
    So essentially my pay rate is $12/hr.

    However, each of these things are shown as a separate line item on my paycheck. So working 40 hours a week it would show
    $10 x 40 = $400
    $1 x 40 = $40
    $1 x 40 = $40
    total pay = $480

    This is cool up to 40 hours a week. However, once I hit OT is where I think it might not be okay, (but I really don’t know) because the 1.5 pay rate is only being calculated on the $10/hr.

    If they just calculated it on my total hourly compensation and I worked 70 hours in the week it would be $12×40=$480, $18×30=540. I would get $1020.

    However, instead it’s $10×40=$400, $15×30=$450, $1×70=$70, $1x$70=$70. So I get $990 instead. It’s not a huge difference, but it adds up.

    Also, training and travel are counted separate from work time. So if I worked 36 hours for the week, then was paid for 8 hours of training, and 16 hours of travel time, my paycheck would show 60 hours paid at my normal rate, rather than 40 hours at normal rate and 20 at 1.5 rate. (Classroom training, not hands on, if that makes any kind of difference.)

    Again, this may all be totally legit, I’m just curious because this is an area where I don’t know what the right/legal thing is.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I think it will depend on your pay agreement if you have anything in writing check it out. It looks to me like they are treating the additional items as enchaements / premiums to your wage which doesn’t seem bad to me.

      However I don’t like the distinction being made between work time training time and traveling time it’s all work and I would expect anything over 40 hours to be treated as overtime.

      I’d start by talking to your state labour board and get some advice on the situation.

    2. Treena Kravm*

      You’re right that this could all be above-board, but it does sound fishy to me. I would check with your state labor board. How big of an airline is it? I would be shocked if it was a bigger carrier and no one had brought it up before.

    3. acmx*

      Typically, you get overtime based on your hourly rate. The other pay is ‘bonus’. Not all companies offer a differential or extra pay for extra duties that require specific training (many do, of course).

      Double check your work week and see if some of your training /travel falls into a different week (whenever your company determines its payweek).

      If you work 12 hours shifts and get paid as if you worked 40, your first 4 hours over your normal schedule (of 3-12s) might be a normal rate since the company gives you free hours.

    4. Sasha*

      You have an extra $1/hr in the first calculation. $15/hr OT pay + $1/hr + $1/hr = $17/hr.

      1. Lindsay J*

        The first calculation I was basing the 1.5 time on the entire payrate, so base rate of $12, time and a half payrate of $18 (12+6). That’s basically what I’m wondering – I don’t know whether that’s the correct way to look at it or not.

    5. Natalie*

      IANAL, but according to the FLSA fact sheet and other results on Google, it appears that shift differentials and most bonuses must be included when determining your “regular rate of pay”.

  67. Chana*

    This is just a vent. IT at my company made a mistake and deleted my account from our company’s website. In the process, they also deleted every single post I have ever made, and every single image I have ever uploaded.

    So most of our content from the past 6 months is gone, plus assorted stuff from earlier than that when I wasn’t doing as much on the website. I’m not even mad, I’m just kind of bleak. I did not have a copy of the entire website backed up. I do have most of the content saved on my computer, but it’s a matter of figuring out what I actually had up and what was in all of the individual posts, assuming I can reconstruct all of them. Next week I’m going to try to see if Google cached anything.

    Sigh.

    1. Elkay*

      Oof, can you get anyone to lean on IT and see if they have back ups? Not sure how Google caches stuff but I’d get IT trying to get that stuff back sooner rather than later.

      1. Chana*

        I wish! Unfortunately when I called (because they told me this via sending me a new account login) and asked if that meant everything old was gone, they said yes, it was just gone. :(

        I mean luckily it’s not like, a shopping website, so the website is still functional for basic reference, but if anybody wants to look at more recent event posts or pictures they’re going to have to wait a while.

        1. fposte*

          Your company’s IT doesn’t back up the website? That seems like a very bad oversight to me.

          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            Yeah, a professional IT department does backups. And has a disaster recovery plan, including restoring from backups.

          2. Chana*

            IT doesn’t actually work in the same office as me so I kind of only talk to them when there’s an issue. I don’t really know much about how they run! It’s a small place (as we’re small ourselves) so I think there’s only two or three people over there.

            I’m going to ask about back-ups. Luckily it won’t be only me asking since other people are irritated that this happened.

        2. Colette*

          I’d push back on that (I.e. Escalate within IT). Sometimes the person you’re talking to doesn’t know about backups or it’s a lot of work to do.

    2. IT Kat*

      Shouldn’t IT have a backup of the website? Something they can use to restore from? Maybe it would be worth asking, if you haven’t already….

      1. Chana*

        I am going to ask about backups when I call them back next. I think I was just so surprised that I didn’t ask why they didn’t back it up. We’re very small, and they don’t work in the same office as me, so I don’t know much about how they run. I’m hoping this is just a one-time mistake and normally things are better. I don’t usually have issues with them…

    3. Evan Þ*

      Look at the Google cache as soon as possible; I’ve sometimes seen it get overwritten in a single day.

      You might also try the Internet Archive ( web.archive.org ); they don’t get every site, but they save indefinitely what they do get.

    4. Delyssia*

      OMG. That is unacceptable. I’m flabbergasted that it’s even possible for them to delete your account and thus delete all of your content.

      This needs to kick off a discussion of how to make sure something like this never, ever happens again. That discussion should include not only back-ups, but also what safeguards are or should be in place when it comes to deleting an account. For that matter, can they just deactivate accounts, not delete them? Because if you were actually leaving the company, why would they want everything you posted to disappear?

      Good luck restoring everything!

    5. The IT Manager*

      Deleting someone’s account from a web server, an error.

      Deleting significant portion of the company’s website, firing offences!

      Seriously they should have a back up. If they do not, IT people who allowed this to happen should be fired.

  68. De Minimis*

    Hoo boy….
    So they finally selected someone for me to train to take over after I leave. I had thought they were just going to have this person take over a few key tasks and everything else would be handled by people who are currently providing coverage for certain tasks when I’m on vacation. But no, they want this person to handle 100% of my job.

    The thing is, it’s taken me a couple of years to get handle on everything, and there are actually a few key things I’m not entirely confident with yet because they were things I only began in recent months when my predecessor retired. Yet I’m supposed to teach this person everything in just under 5 weeks.

    Also, I’m not sure if she is really prepared, but this is the person they chose [and who agreed to do it, I think they may have asked others who said no] so I have to do the best I can to train [and I’ll be honest that’s not a strong suit for me.] But I’m really thinking it’s going to be a train wreck as soon as I leave. I know that shouldn’t be my problem, but guess I’m afraid I’ll be blamed for it.

    The fact is, the chickens are finally coming home to roost as far as their setup over the last several years. And I think they are planning for it to be months before a replacement is found.

    In other news, it looks like I can collect unemployment while I’m looking for my next job, which is a relief. Apparently in my state one of the rare cases where you can quit and receive UI benefits is when your spouse has to move for a job. It will at least give us some breathing room but I’m hoping that it won’t be that long.

    1. De Minimis*

      Also, for any feds out there…I’m a grade 9, this person they want to serve as a interim replacement is a grade 4.
      I’m sure she can do it [though I think they may not have been 100% upfront with her about what they want] but it doesn’t seem quite kosher to me, especially on her end.

    2. Buu*

      ..or it will make then appreciate you all the more once you’ve gone. Perhaps leave behind some documentation so you have evidence you tried!

      1. De Minimis*

        Yeah I’m pretty much writing the governmental accounting version of WAR AND PEACE right now…

  69. Vee*

    Does anyone have any advice on avoiding all of the food and candy dishes around the office? I’ve been trying to eat healthier and on weekends, I do great! Unfortunately, during the week, people always bring in random goodies or there are leftovers from a meeting and I eat about three times as much as I planned.

    I’ve tried putting up healthy motivators like “xxx food = xx # of burpees” and it works for a few days, but I get desensitized and inevitably go back to eating everything that’s free around the office!

    Any suggestions?

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Oh man…I sit across from our office’s main candy dish. I try to drink a lot of water so that I’m just not as interested in filling my belly. I’m also pretty liberal in excusing my grazing, though– it makes me less stressed to snack, and I’d rather be less stressed at work and then go home and be really strict about food and working out when I’m not juggling tasks.

    3. Dawn*

      GUM. Seriously. Gum all the time that you’re not actively eating your lunch or drinking coffee.

      Also, if you stick with the habit of not reaching for various “goodies” for a few weeks then it will become much much easier to resist. I have found that when I eat sugary or starchy stuff on a regular basis it makes me want more sugary and starchy stuff, but if I cut that crap out then after three weeks or so the urge is nowhere near as strong.

      1. LisaS*

        Seconding this – plus, if you have a blanket policy of saying “no” to all of it it’s weirdly easier, as you’re not putting any thought into the decision or trying to stop yourself after x or y number of sweets. It becomes not-a-decision, for precisely no cognitive load, as opposed to a calculation, which always takes more energy.

    4. Sparrow*

      Drink a lot of water or tea. Chew gum. Or if you’re able, just take one small piece of candy or dessert. I’m trying to cut back on my sugar intake, but I keep a small stash of toffee flavored almonds at my desk. Having a few of them helps take the edge off.

      Didn’t someone post here that a co-worker kept a litter box in the kitchen or on the counter? Imagine the homemade goodies baked in the litter box kitchen.

    5. fposte*

      Where are these kept? Do you have to go there for any work-related reason? Where do you eat them when you get them? Is it a pleasant break in other ways–social, time out, change of scene?

      I’m all about the behaviorism at the moment, so I think you’ll have better luck trying to stay out of their way than convincing yourself you don’t want them. Can you get up and walk in a different direction at appointed times, and find another way to check in with colleagues for a while?

      1. Vee*

        Our office spans 3 floors and there is a main kitchen, along with 5 kitchenettes, all of which are subject to food that’s up for grabs. Plus, I have *many* coworkers who keep candy dishes around. Sometimes we get emails about food being in one of the areas and it’s like an instant reflex that I have to go just to see what is there, but I end up getting more than I planned! I should just try to shield myself as much as possible. Other times, I’m on my way to do something legitimately work-related and I’ll come across something on accident!

        I’ll definitely try the gum thing, and I do drink tea and water throughout the day, but not with a purpose, so I probably should try to drink to a greater level of fullness.

    6. Anx*

      Is this a financial issue? Is it hard to turn away free food because you might not be able to eat something later?

      If so, sometimes I just remind myself that at a certain point, crappy food isn’t really helping me. I remind myself that I have perishable food at home or that I can’t afford to feel too ‘blech’ from a bad diet.

      1. Vee*

        It’s not financial in the sense that I can’t afford to buy food, but I do consider myself thrifty and I definitely think that does play a role! That’s a good way to look at it though — the cost of feeling “blech.”

        1. Anx*

          I know it’s a bit of an issue for me. I am food secure these days, but summer is around the corner and that often brings a big reduction in income for our home. So I need to feel like I can’t afford to pass up food while I have access to it.

          As it is, I already eat a lot of high carb, cheap food. If there are free donuts out, I feel like I need to take advantage of it, because I’m cheap. But then I think about how much money I’ve already spent on trying to add some protein or non-sugar based options to round out my diet and it seems counter-productive.

    7. Alex*

      I can’t say I have amazing self-control in these situations, but I heard a tip to wear restrictive clothing like tight jeans or a top that makes you feel like you want to suck in all the time, lol. My mom swears by this tip as she wears a uniform that is very uncomfortable if she eats food that makes her bloaty.

    8. Soupspoon McGee*

      I don’t do moderation with treats, so I’ve had to tell myself I just don’t eat certain things. The office candy is crappy, anyway, so if I convince myself I can have one good piece of chocolate when I get home, I can resist. Otherwise, I eat just one, and more, and I hate myself and the bathroom scale.

  70. Bamboo Earrings*

    Any suggestions on how to handle this situation:

    I manage a small team. Our newest team member (“A”) serves as an assistant to the other team members in the sense they help with all the projects the team works on. Their role is not administrative but more like a junior manager compared to a full or senior manager. The problem is that one of my other team members (“B”) is treating A as though A is B’s assistant. (B’s title is one level above A, they have a few more years experience and were recently promoted from the same title A currently holds.) B speaks to A bluntly and condescendingly both in tone and content. B also speaks to clients like this (I know because the client complained to me). A has been visibly upset at work on more than one occasion due to the way B treats A.

    I have spoken to both A and B separately. I have told B they need to be more conscientious of how they speak to A and made it clear that all the members of our department are equal, no one is an assistant to anyone else. For a few weeks the behavior improved, but then B reverted to the same way of treating A.

    How do you get someone to change soft skills like the way they speak to someone? Can that even be changed? What do I do if B continues to behave this way? (I have not spoken to my supervisor about this because, as the department manager, I am trying to resolve the issue before moving it up the chain of command.)

    1. Lily in NYC*

      I think it’s time for another chat with to let him/her know that the behavior has reverted back to unacceptable, and that you don’t want to have this conversation again. And that there will be consequences if it continues (like going up the chain of command or writing him/her up).

      Also, I would let A know that you are aware it’s still going on and that you are on it – sometimes just knowing someone else notices helps one deal with it.

      1. Bamboo Earrings*

        I am meeting with A early next week to see how things are going. I am also putting this as an item to work in in B’s review. I’m just wondering at what point does it become serious enough for a formal reprimand, and what are the consequences if it continues? A PIP? Termination? B is a good employee in other regards.

        1. fposte*

          Is there a way to change workflow so that A no longer does support work for B? Tempting though it is, I’d stay away from the punitive “You can’t have support until you know how to treat support” and try to find B another support option.

          1. Bamboo Earrings*

            That’s an interesting idea but would that go against the idea that we are a team? One reason A was hired was to provide relief to our team, which was understaffed (and overworked). A doesn’t have sole ownership over any projects, whereas the other team members do and we don’t have any other staff who can provide support for B. I also want to try to avoid – as much as possible – making this B versus A, because, as I said in the first post, B also talks this way to clients which needs to stop too.

            1. fposte*

              I don’t see why being a team means A has to work for everybody, and doesn’t treating one of the members poorly also go against the idea that you’re a team?

              I mean, if you don’t have other staff to support B, you don’t. But as I think you’re finding, B’s behavior is a kind that’s pretty tough to coach into a change. If he stays as he is, is he worth it to you? Even if it loses you A? I’m not meaning to lead you into one decision or another, but I think that’s a decision you may have to make.

        2. Soupspoon McGee*

          Are you willing to lose A and your clients over your otherwise good employee’s condescending behavior? Because that’s what will happen if B doesn’t behave differently. I think ongoing coaching is called for, with crystal clear examples of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors (not tone, not attitude, but actual words, tone, and requests).

  71. CPP*

    Do any attorney’s have advice on how to handle stress and prioritizing client work? I’m a new attorney and constantly feel overwhelmed from the stress and the amount of work. Part of it comes from my inexperience and how long it takes me to handle matters compared to more experienced attorneys, and the other part from not knowing when a matter truly needs to be done asap or when it can be put off.

    1. Sunshine Brite*

      Not an attorney but a social worker. Look up resources on mindfulness, positive stress management, etc. Not addressing the overwhelm for me can turn to procrastination so try to avoid that. Figure out what are the major deadlines. I have two tracks of client prioritizing that I use based on date visited to stay in compliance and level of need/safety concerns.

      1. CPP*

        Thanks for the advice! I’ve heard people talk about mindfulness before but never looked into it. I’ll have to read up on it. Procrastinating when I’m overwhelmed is a problem that I am working on and getting better about it but still a struggle.

  72. Catherine in Canada*

    I need some salary advice.
    I’ve been working as a technical writer on contract with a company for the last five years, with a PO every quarter. I am the only tech writer for a product line of 20-odd products, and maintain a documentation suite of about 10,000 pages in three separate release streams. My manager and all the SMEs I work with regularly tell me I’m doing a great job, I catch details they’ve missed, I anticipate their needs and have things ready before they ask for them, and make their jobs easier. (Which is what a tech writer should be doing…) While not indispensable, I’d be darned hard to replace.

    The company is undergoing a major restructuring – splitting into two companies. I am beginning to suspect that as part of the restructuring, my managers are going to try to bring me on full-time. (They’ve asked, in a very general way, if I’d be interested in that.) While I enjoy the flexibility of being on contract, there are advantages to having a salary and benefits (dental plan!)

    My question is, what should I expect or ask for in terms of salary? The PO amount times 4? More? Less? Most tech writers in this area don’t make the hourly I do, but they’re not as productive as I am either, so I’m not sure that “the going rate” is a good place to start.
    And how should I calculate the tax implications of a full-time salary? Currently, the POs are paid to my owner-operated writing services company. It then pays me a much lower salary. I keep that salary below the 17% cut-off, so generally don’t pay any personal income tax at all. The business pays income tax, but at a lower rate.
    Also, how much should I be willing to give up (as a percentage, say) for more vacation time? As a contract writer, I was able to take my laptop and go to Italy for a month two years ago. I doubt they’d let me do that if I was an employee.

    All this is complicated by the fact I’ve never had a full-time job before, I’ve always worked on contract. I’m afraid I’ll get surprised by an offer and feel put on the spot to accept immediately. Any and all advice on how to think about all this is much appreciated!

  73. K*

    I’ve spent the last few days giving my two weeks’ notice to various managers and team leaders. Everyone has been shocked and reacting with “only” two weeks being a short and speedy timeframe. I’m so confused??? Since when was more than two weeks expected? My supervisor even said something about usually they ask for four weeks. Um… how was I supposed to know that? And why is that necessary? I’m in a junior position. How long a timeframe was I supposed to give the new job?

    Probably relevant: I’m relocating ~9 hours for this new job. Also, I was hoping to give an additional week of notice but the background check took longer than expected.

    It seems like no matter what I do someone is going to be mad at me.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      They are being disingenuous because they want you to give longer notice. I would just say that two-weeks is standard and that you already made arrangements to move. Congrats on your new job and don’t worry about anyone being mad; they are trying to take advantage of you.

    2. Mike C.*

      Lily’s right – they’re just mad – they need to suck it up and deal with it. Congrats on your new job!

      1. De Minimis*

        Yeah I can already see my bosses acting somewhat pissy towards me and I gave nearly a month and a half notice! I’ve decided there is no amount of notice that will be sufficient, short of not leaving at all or else giving several months, but that isn’t reasonable.

        The takeaway for me is that managers should always be prepared to have a backup or some other kind of alternate coverage, that will take a lot of the sting away from normal employee turnover.

    3. Parfait*

      You didn’t do anything wrong. They’re being ridiculous. Good luck in your new gig!

    4. Buu*

      Notice period is usually in company handbooks. I had an awful temp job with only a week’s notice and when it was up one of the supervisors would not believe I was going. I had to insist they come with me and sign for my key fob so I wouldn’t be billed for it.

  74. Gillian*

    I’m happily employed in a job I enjoy and started last fall (thanks in part, I believe, to great resume advice here), but was thinking back to some of the crazy/bizarre interviews I had last summer or when searching for previous jobs that were such huge red flags I didn’t even need to think about asking someone if I should worry. I was wondering if anyone else had any good interview tales? What is the red-flaggiest interview situation you’ve ever been in?

    I’ve got two that tie for crazy:
    – Last summer, I had a great phone interview for a marketing manager position for a tech startup, but ended up pulling myself from the running because the timelines didn’t work out for me (they wanted me to decide and start the next day, and I needed more time to think something like that over!). They called back the next week and said, “The person we hired doesn’t seem to be working out. Could you start next Monday?” Trying to hire me while the person was still employed – and had only been there for three days. Nope.
    – When searching for full-time jobs after college, I interviewed for an in-house public relations role for a food/beverage company. The owner sat me down and basically said that the first thing the person would do in their job was to run a smear campaign against NASA in order to drum up publicity. I could not get out of there fast enough – I live in Houston.

    2. Sara*

      I had an interview last summer that consisted entirely of “fun” interview questions, i.e. what type of tree best represents your personality, would you rather fight a horse-sized duck or 100 duck-sized horses, describe your perfect birthday party, etc. After 45 minutes of this, I was ready to excuse myself from the work sample portion, but I figured that since I was there, I might as well do the damn thing. I nailed it – the interviewer literally had no critical feedback to offer. Got a second interview, but ultimately they hired a classmate of mine from grad school. And THANK GOD, because the interviewer is apparently a nightmare to work for and likes to make employees answer these questions during performance reviews as well.

  75. Elkay*

    Does anyone else find themselves wanting to reply to online articles and blogs with “That’s not what Ask A Manager would say/do/recommend”? I’ve been reading a blog recently and the author has found themselves in a bad place at work (for a variety of reasons) but their reaction to it (and all the commenters) is pretty much “I can’t possibly be in the wrong, my manager is so unfair”. I suspect the truth is a little bit bad manager a little bit the author not picking up on the cues the manager has been sending them. For example, a 1-1 where their manager told them all the things they’d done wrong, rather than trying to come up with ways to be better at work the author said “I’m shy, I can’t help it, how am I supposed to know what work needs doing if I’m not told”. I so desperately wanted to point them here but I don’t think they’d be particularly receptive to that sort of advice!

      1. De Minimis*

        Yes, usually when I see other blogs about work or finding a job. Just saw one recently about using a “functional resume” if you have gaps in employment….

    2. Amber Rose*

      Came across a post that was like “never use Times New Roman as a resume font because it makes you look old fashioned. Try Garamond instead. Also, use all the emojis you want.”

      And I just shook my head.

      2. land of oaks*

        Yeah I saw that post and refused to click on it because it was so stupid. And I think I remember the title was something like “Using Times New Roman on your resume is the worst thing you can do” ::eyeroll::

    3. some1*

      I actually had a discussion with a friend! She has been freelancing for several years but is trying to get back into a full-time role for security. She hasn’t job-searched for a traditional office job in over 10 years, and wants to stop by employers that are posting positions she wants (that clearly ask applicants to apply online) because “it shows a personal touch/enthusiasm” and “online applications/resumes that don’t have secret buzzwords will all get tossed out”.

      She is convinced she lost out on a job she phone interviewed for because she didn’t drop by to meet the hiring manager. The truth is, she’s in a very competitive industry (especially in our area) and the woman they gave the position to has 10+ more years of experience and previously held a VP-level role.

    5. Vanishing Girl*

      Yes! There are some posts on tumblr that talk about how to job search for new grads and OMG it hurts. I pointed out AAM in one post, but I don’t know that many people read that reblog.

      People just need to come here first: don’t ask Prudence or Abby or the teenagers on tumblr.

  76. Rebecca*

    I’m just so tired and burned out at my job, and mandatory overtime is not helping :( I don’t even want the extra money at this point, I resent having to spend even more hours of my life in a toxic workplace. A new job can’t come soon enough, but man is this looking bleak.

    I mentioned to an older person (not a parent or relative) that I was just burned out and wished I could do something else, and he said “just be glad you have a job”. Yes, that’s easy to say when you’re retired, pulling in social security and a pension that’s more than I make working. I’m so sick of the whole “just be glad you have a job” mentality. What is wrong with wanting to at least like your job just a little bit? I realize that not everyone can do what they love, but maybe at least be able to work in a sane environment where there are some rewards once in a while instead of reductions in benefits and perks.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Ugh, I hear you, and I hate this too. I was on the phone with my stepfather and said I was unhappy about working every weekend and several late nights, and he said, “Well, that’s why they pay you! If you worked at Wal-Mart you’d be working weekends too!” etc. etc. This from a retired professional who worked four days a week at a practice he owned, changed fields and retired with more money than I will see in the next 30 years. I was at brunch with him, my mom, and two of their friends the day before I started a new job and said something about how I left my old job because it had become political and insane, and the friend said, “Be grateful you have a job.” Um… what? I was starting a new one THE NEXT DAY.

      It’s almost like a reflex for them.

      Am I glad I’m employed? Of course I am. Am I glad I have a nice boyfriend? Of course I am. But I’m entitled to complain about them once in a while, and I’m allowed to be frustrated with my circumstances sometimes. Doesn’t mean I’m going to quit either one of them. My co-worker always says, “Sorry I sound like a brat,” when she vents about something, and I constantly tell her that she is allowed to have negative thoughts.

      In your current circumstances, I just sympathize and tell you to keep on trucking as best you can while sending out those resumes. Good luck!

    2. Jennifer*

      Well, I keep reminding myself of the same thing because having a job that sucks beats homelessness.
      It only somewhat helps.
      And now I am off to a 4 p.m. on Friday meeting “so they can get my opinion” on something where my opinion doesn’t matter. Huzzah!

  77. Kristen*

    Do you regret any career decisions you’ve made? For example, I’ve been looking for a job in my new field for two years now. Last year, I had a job offer that I turned down because the pay was much lower than I’m making now (I’m prepared for a pay cut, but I’m realizing the pay cut I have to take is going to be more extreme than I’d like) and the position itself didn’t match what I was looking for (i.e., I didn’t think it would help me get to where I want to go in my career). My would-be manager and coworkers seemed awesome though, so it hurt to have to turn it down, but I didn’t want to be in a position where I was unhappy. Fast forward a year later and I am deeply regretting the decision to turn the job offer down. What career decision do you wish you could redo?

    1. Christian Troy*

      I did the same thing as you. I started my job search last march when my master’s wasn’t finished; the coursework was done but my thesis wasn’t. I ended up pulling out of an interview that was a few hours away because the pay was pretty low and I got it in my head my degree was going to be conferred soon and I could get something better. It seemed like they were pretty interested in me, but since I never went to the final round I guess I’ll never know. It bothers me a lot because like you, it’s a year later and I still think how much better my life would have been if I just went and took the job if it was offered. I don’t know how to get rid of the feeling.

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      Several years ago, I had been laid off and a relative had given me a temp job at her company. It was so kind, and I was so grateful. About a month into the temp job, I had been asked to come in for an interview at a real job, in a field that I was trying to move into. I turned down the interview because I didn’t want to burn a bridge with my relative and leave after only a few weeks. Stupidest move ever. My relative would surely have rather I gotten a full-time position in my desired field than make mini-bucks as a temp admin!

    3. CheeryO*

      It’s not a huge regret, but I wish I had gone straight to work with my B.S. rather than staying at the same school for my Master’s. I got it paid for, and it may end up being useful at some point in the future, but I didn’t need it to get the job I have now. Grad school was incredibly hard and stressful – I think I have PTSD from my comprehensive oral exam – and graduating in December made it hard to get hired straight out of school. I was unemployed for six months, then did six months at a last-choice kind of job in my field, and now I’ve been in my current role for four months. I could be getting ready to apply for my professional engineer’s license right about now, and instead, I’m still a bumbling newbie. I love my job, and I’m more than willing to do what it takes to get up to speed, but I can’t help but feel like I put my life on hold for 2.5 years for nothing.

      1. Glorified Plumber*

        Hey, don’t let it get you down too much. As an engineer, you will bounce back exceedingly fast! Before you know it, you will be getting your PE, you’ll be leading teams, etc. You CAN and WILL recover from this 2.5 year deficit.

        It’s not grad school, but it’s a similar situation. I did not do engineering school until I completed my first degree and worked for 1 year. As well, my first job post school was a HUGE mistake and ended up quitting and taking a new job at 9 months. This means, when I graduated and started real engineering work, I was 3.75 years behind everyone my same age with regards to the engineering and the industry I worked in. I was a freshman… except I wasn’t, I was a freshman held back 3.75 years.

        3.75 years behind in leadership… 3.75 years behind in salary… 3.75 years OLDER in age… 3.75 years behind where I WANTED to be if I had “done it right the first time.”

        Fast forward, and I am ~7.5/8 years into my career now as an engineer (and I am relatively recently a registered professional engineer (12/09/2013 baby!), but my state needed 4 years not 2 years XP), work as a lead engineer on a major client, have my own minions, and am pretty well respected by folks I work with. I finally feel that I have caught up and surpassed many of my “peers” and the 3.75 years is no longer a big deal.

        My point… let that feeling of 2.5 years behind fuel you. It is POWERFUL fuel… seek out and take those leadership possibilities… cultivate mentors like it is your mission… be willing to take opportunities you might not take because you’re not “younger you.” You can and WILL catch up and eventually surpass… it just takes more time.

        Good luck!

        1. CheeryO*

          Hey, I just saw this – what a wonderful kick in the pants on a Monday morning! Congratulations on the P.E., and thank you so much for the advice and encouragement. I love the idea of using the “lost years” as fuel… much better to use it to propel me forward than to keep beating myself up over it. Thanks again! :)

    4. fposte*

      I’m curious, Kristen–this doesn’t sound like a decision to regret. Why would you trade for a lower-paid job that isn’t taking you the direction you want?

      1. Kristen*

        I guess it’s currently more of a temporary regret (I hope anyway). I believe I’d be better off right now with the year of job experience even if the fit wasn’t perfect. Not having any experience at this point is making my job search very frustrating.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, that could just be grass-is-greener syndrome. Which is pretty much a chronic disease for me, so I get that.

    5. Sabrina*

      Years ago I was working at a company I’d been with for 10 years at the time. I was unhappy at the job. There were really no opportunities for growth, and I was very bored with the job, and felt I was underpaid. I started looking as I wanted something that was more challenging, had more responsibility, and paid better. I didn’t find anything. And then my husband and I decided to relocate. My mood immediately improved once the decision was made. I thought this was a good opportunity to start new in a new place and according to everything I read, I could get at least a similarly paying job in the new city. Yeah. We’ve been here 7 years, and the job I have now has less responsibility, is a lot less challenging, and doesn’t even pay close to what I made there. I regret leaving that job. And yes, I’ve tried to go back.

  78. new grad*

    Hello all! Would love your insight on the following:

    do you think dressing for the position you want to get is true? I have read articles about people like mark zuckerberg and all standing out because of their casual outfits, which suggests that they would have more ‘power’ in this way because they went against the norm. While I’m not talking about outfits as casual as theirs, I’m wondering if you all think it’s okay for a entry level staff to dress in smart casual? The office doesn’t have strict dress code, most people dress smart casually (e.g. in a shift dress and flats). But the managers and guys often turn up in formal wear (buttoned shorts and trousers; no blazer). Going back to dressing for the role you want, do you think I should step up my game and start to wear more formally (e.g. buttoned shirt and skirt/ dresses with blazer) as, like many, I would like to get promoted (not now but well, over time).

    Thanks in advance for any suggestions or opinions you may have!

    1. Turanga Leela*

      For whatever it’s worth, I think of dress + flats for women as about the same formality level as button-up shirts for men. If no one else wears a blazer, you don’t have to wear one, although you definitely can if you wouldn’t look out of place.

      In my really limited experience with dressing for the position you want, here’s what I’ve seen: it reflects badly on you if you always wear the bare minimum required by the dress code. I know people who go to work every day in khakis/corduroys, a plain t-shirt, and a sweater.* While each piece of clothing individually is fine, the overall effect is a) kind of blah and b) not very polished. Stepping it up, even a little bit, can make people perceive you as more professional.

      1. Sparrow*

        I agree. A dress and flats is the same as as button down shirt and slacks for a man. I think a more formal look for a man would be to add a tie and jacket. For a woman also that would be a suit with a skirt or pants.

        You can dress up the shift dress with a blazer instead of a cardigan. And make sure the dress is in a more “formal” material. For example, I think of jersey dresses as more of a weekend look. You don’t have to buy a whole new wardrobe, but make sure that what you have is clean and fits well. Pay attention to shoes to make sure they don’t look worn our out of place with your outfit.

    2. Mike C.*

      I think it widely depends on the culture of the workplace, but it can only go so far and it’s going to only augment what you already do as an employee. That is, if you’re a complete weasel and you start dressing like upper management, you’re going to come off a whole lot worse. If you’re a high performer but keep it more on the casual side, then it’s not going to hurt you.

    3. AVP*

      I would think about buying one decent blazer and starting to introduce it occasionally – once a week, maybe? Or leave it at your desk and throw it on when you have a meeting with someone higher up or someone who typically dresses more formally.

  79. paddlepickle*

    Hi everyone! I got a verbal job offer yesterday and am waiting on the written, and I have a few questions.

    1. My current title is “Director”. This new position is a bit of a step up in that I’ll be in charge of two departments and managing somebody, but the position as “Manager”. I’m wondering if it’s petty to ask them to change it to Director? When I started this current job I did so because the original title had been Associate but I was the only person in the department and had more experience/could take on more responsibility than they had originally planned, and Associate would be a big dip from my last Director position. But I feel like Manager and Director are kind of interchangeable, and it will probably be apparent on my resume that this was a step up, so I feel like it’s more of a vanity thing. Thoughts?

    2. I’m more than happy with the salary they’re offering, it’s a big raise for me. Their Director also told me that his ‘philosophy on hiring is to offer pretty much the highest of the range we can offer, but we’ll see what you think of the offer’. So I’m kind of not inclined to negotiate for higher, but I feel like, especially as a woman, I’m always supposed to. Should I?

    1. Judy*

      If it’s a company of any size, I’d not ask for the title change. Usually there is standardization over the company hierarchy. It also sounds like they have directors, which might be at a level higher than manager.

      1. paddlepickle*

        Oh yeah, I should have mentioned– it’s a small nonprofit and there’s an Executive Director but no other Directors– but I’m pretty much going to be the second most senior person. The person I’m replacing is Manager, but the only Director over her is the ED. Would that change your answer?

        1. AndersonDarling*

          The departments you would manage, are you making directional decisions and are you responsible for their results? Then a director title may be appropriate. But if you manage their day to day items (Jenny is out sick, approve their supply order) then Manager sounds right.

          1. paddlepickle*

            The former. I guess what I’m really wondering is “Manager” always considered considerably below “Director”? Because I’m confident that a Director title wouldn’t be inappropriate here, it’s just a question of whether it really makes a difference on my resume.

    2. Treena Kravm*

      I think you answered your own question. If someone offering you a job is a Director, they’re probably not going to give you the same title as them. And because they’re being transparent about maxing out their hiring offer, I would negotiate for an extra week’s vacation or something like that, so you’re still negotiating a bit. But if you’re happy with the money, be happy!

  80. a-NO-NO-mous*

    I wrote 2 weeks ago about competing priorities from my manager who questioned why I wasn’t getting things done and told me I could work more than 40 hours/week. I had decided to keep a log of everything I worked on to figure out how much time I was spending where and also to show that some of these tasks she expects to be done quickly are not simple and short. For our next meeting, I gave her the breakdown of the hours I had work for a week. I had a conversation like this

    Boss: You really spent 15 hours on spout documentation?
    Me: Actually it was 24 hours total. The 15 is only from the past week. I started working on it the week before. (15 hrs to finish spout documentation was low in my experience – thus I was explaining that)
    Boss: (looks astonished) These aren’t going to be the quick tasks that I thought they would be.

    My work hours for that week were also well over 40, due to having to catch up on backlog caused by having to drop everything for shifting priorities, while still having to keep up with day-to-day work. I feel like it was useful information. It wasn’t a typical week, some things took more time and some things took less than usual, but it was still informative. I am going to continue this, and see what it looks like at our next meeting, especially since now that the spouts are done, I have to write the manual on teapot body construction.

    1. C Average*

      This reminds me of a time when a former manager of mine asked me to keep a time log and also spent a day shadowing me to learn about my job. (She was new to the organization.)

      At the end of the day, her only comment was “Well, this is clearly a role we cannot outsource.” I think this passed for a compliment in her world.

      (She left the company after less than a year. Much rejoicing ensued. )

      I know people hate time logs, but the exercise can definitely be useful and informative.

    2. Sparrow*

      That’s good that the work log helped quantify your work load. Hopefully it will help with the competing priorities!

      I keep a work log too, because I have to code my time sheet according to specific projects. Lately, there has been a lot of scrutiny in the hours charged to projects so I have to be more specific with my time reporting instead of giving my best guess. I ended up setting up a spreadsheet similiar to my time sheet so I can keep track of everything during the week.

      1. a-NO-NO-mous*

        At my last job our time sheets were ridiculously specific and they were only completed once a month. I’d have to record how many hours I worked on each specific task for each project. We were all salaried non-exempt but the company tracked costs to clients per-task basis or something rather than saying, “You have 20 hours a week allotted to this project” it was “You have a total of 60 hours total allotted to polishing handles for Wakeen and 20 hours affixing lids.” It was ridiculously specific and filling it out easily ate up 90 minutes in of people’s time. Still that didn’t really help me quantify my workload on a personal level, because what I was doing was looking at my budget to know how to divide up my time.

  81. Lindsay J*

    Also, interview questions.

    A friend of mine was asked “What makes you uncomfortable in the workplace?” in an interview. Is this a rephrasing of “What is your biggest weakness?” and should it be answered similarly, or are they getting at something else?

    He went with something along the lines of “being held accountable for fulfilling expectations that haven’t been clearly communicated to me” as his answer to that one and highlighted ways he seeks clarification in situations where things are nebulous. But in hindsight we’re wondering if they were looking for something along the lines of, “well, I’m not too familiar with tool X in program Y, but I’ve been doing courses on Lynda.com on it,” or even, “it makes me uncomfortable when people make racist remarks.”

    Also any tips for STAR based interviews?

    1. Treena Kravm*

      My first thought is that it’s a culture fit question. I hate meetings or I hate open floor-plans would be a big culture clash for some workplaces. It could be that they’re looking for some of the values of the org in his answer (especially if it’s a non-profit). I think his answer about accountability/communication was great, a substantive example of what he wants out of his work culture.

    2. Sparrow*

      That seems like an interview question that can be interpreted in different ways. I think his answer makes sense, but you’re right that it could apply to a number of things – not just work related – that would make a person uncomfortable. I don’t think it’s a great question, but answering with regard to weaknesses seems to make the most sense.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Eesh, what a poorly worded question. My first thought was sexual harassment, racism, and hard chairs. I would have failed.

  82. TheExchequer*

    I have three in-person interviews under my belt now and have two more scheduled.

    The first one I have yet to hear back from. I am unsurprised – he was looking for someone with construction experience. I do not have construction experience. Why are you interviewing me? (Still think it’s rude not to at least let me know I wasn’t the chosen one, but whatevs).

    The second one is for a job I really really want. Closer commute, large company, full bennies. Ahhh. The only two sources for concern are that it would be working for someone who sounds a little high maintenance and there’s some office politics. I’m supposed to hear back from this one today or early next week.

    If the third one had been any more of a dog and pony show, I could’ve sold tickets. I was interviewed by /five/ different people back to back for an /entry/ level position. Really! (If I got the job, they’d be my future co-workers. I can kinda see the logic, but at the same time, uh, no). Same commute, but large company and full bennies. But the interview has kind of soured me on what was otherwise my second choice.

    I have an in-person interview tomorrow morning (really!) for something close by. It’s a smaller company, so I don’t know if benefits are involved or not. Then I have an in-person interview late Monday. That one is more people-facing than I’m really looking for, but if I got a decent offer, it’s close by and a larger company.

    Meanwhile, my computer is on the fritz, so my job seeking has been curtailed somewhat.

    Here’s to getting a new job soon!

    2. Sutemi*

      Can I ask why getting interviewed by 5 people for entry level turns you off?

      We do this. The hiring manager spends the longest time with the candidates, but we value all the team members’ opinions and want them to meet the short list of prospective team members. Then usually there is a slot for a few minutes with HR to talk about benefits and a slot with the managers’ manager. I’ve seen this result in better decisions than simply getting the opinions of one or two people.

      1. TheExchequer*

        Well, it turned me off for a few reasons.

        1. The team of five did not coordinate their questions well – so when each person interviewed me, I got asked the same question several times.
        2. I didn’t meet the hiring manager in person – I interviewed with her over the phone. But the people who would be my coworkers were expected to interview me.
        3. To me, it felt like a really unnecessarily long process for an entry level customer service role. I’ve never seen anyone else do it and at least in my area, it’s not the norm.
        4. I didn’t get to see where the team worked. I was placed in a conference room and they came to me. I started to feel like I was in a doctor’s office.

        I’ve got nothing against meeting the people on the team or even having them ask questions, but this process was kind of exhausting. (Then again, it was at the end of a long work day and I’m an introvert, so that probably had something to do with it).

      2. Jennifer*

        I think 5 people interviewing you ends up being too many and too awkward to juggle. And in my experience, several of them didn’t really seem to know what doing the job even entailed. Really, I don’t think you need more than three people asking questions in an interview–though if you want to have extra to observe in the back and ask them what they think later, maybe.

  83. Owl*

    OK, I’ll put this one out there: my (new) boss wants me to dog/house-sit. I don’t want to because a) this is my boss, not my neighbor/friend, and b) I don’t want to stay in a strange person’s house. If I was caring for the dog at my house, it would be a little different, and I would be inclined to say yes, but again, she’s my boss. Thoughts on how to tactfully take care of this one?

    1. TheExchequer*

      Frankly, I wouldn’t. There’s just way too much that could go wrong with the dog and/or house that could forever change your working relationship. I would have plans that came up and couldn’t be changed that have you out of town.

    2. C Average*

      Nope. And I wouldn’t make excuses or offer a reason, either. “I’m sorry, but I won’t be able to do that.”

    3. AVP*

      Are you a documented animal lover / dog owner? If not, a simple “this isn’t a great idea if you want to come home to a happy, well taken care of puppy” might do the trick.

    4. land of oaks*

      yeah, you can just say no, without a specific excuse.

      “Oh darn, I’m sorry but I really can’t.” Shrug. Change subject or leave.

  84. Beezus*

    What strategies do you all use to implement/communicate/get acceptance for process changes?

    In the past, I took a very cautious approach. I documented the current process (usually in black and white with visuals), developed a business case for the change and studied the impact, had one-on-one discussions with the stakeholders in advance and explained the change and the reasoning behind it and heard their concerns, and finally communicated a decision to make the change with an effective date. My new boss is more of a “just do it” kind of guy, and I’m trying to implement changes more rapidly when I have the authority to do so and I know it’s the right thing to do.

    So I made a change this week – decided we would no longer be granting exceptions to a particular rule. We made some limited exceptions a couple of years ago, then gradually accepted more and more frivolous reasons, and finally abandoned any pretense of approval and let people just tell us they were invoking an exception to the rule.

    I took over the area this rule applies to recently, and implemented a more rigorous review of exception reasons immediately and started denying the obviously frivolous ones, while I was still getting an understanding of how things work. This week, I felt like I had a good enough grasp of it that I was comfortable saying that the rule needed to be black and white and we weren’t granting exceptions anymore for any reason. I am currently wildly unpopular, haha, but I reasserted our authority in an area we’re responsible for, where letting it crumble had caused confusion and disruption. I still feel like I could have been a little more diplomatic. My manager’s feedback is that I’m still being nicer than he would be, but he knows that’s my style, so that’s okay as long as I’m not letting it keep me from being effective. It feels great and scary at the same time – it’s going to take a few tries to find a groove that works.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Ugh, tough. I know the “not all that popular right now” feeling all too well. I think you’ve done what you need to do: you need to set clear expectations and stick to them. Obviously as you go if someone is able to make the case that you truly are being unnecessarily rigid, you might reevaluate and communicate clearly the singular exception, but otherwise, consistency is key. “This not open for debate” might become a good phrase in your toolbox…

      One thing you might consider — you’ve got your manager on board but maybe working with other managers to get them on board too would help. We’ve run into this issue with our finance policies–I can explain compliance requirements til I’m blue in the face but for some managers, when their employees complain, they’ll grant an exception…even though it’s not their call to make. It’s always good to have backup and this might be one way of getting it!

  85. Fuzzy*

    There is some really cool stuff happening at my job. We are moving out toxic people and reformatting a program, and even though it’s barely the end of my first year I get to have a heavy hand in everything that’s going on.

    Problem: I am having major Jerk-Brain over everything. I can’t tell if the anxiety is because I’m not enjoying the work and want to explore something else, or if I’m just anxious, or just tired of work in general. How can I tell the difference and avoid burnout?

    1. C Average*

      What is Jerk-Brain?

      It sounds like there are good changes going on, but change is inherently stressful, even when it’s positive. I’d say stay the course if you can, at least for a little while. During major changes, the change management itself BECOMES the work, which can make the actual duties of the job feel more onerous than they would otherwise.

      Is there a specific future state your workplace is trying to attain through the reformatting? Will you know you’re there when you get there? If so, can you set a mental timeline to stay as engaged as you can until that goal is met? Maybe schedule a vacation for after the goal is met, so you’ll have a sort of finish line and reward. Then you can decide whether the newly formatted version of your workplace is a place you want to remain or not.

      1. Fuzzy*

        Ha! It’s a Captain Awkward phrase which basically means when your brain acts against you, aka when your brain is being a jerk.

        Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll know for a while. The restructuring is in a community based program where people don’t love change, and we think the toxic people we moved out are speaking out enough to prevent better people from applying to the new position. So we may need to hire interim before we can find a perfect “future state.” We’re also recreating a program previously run by the toxic person, which won’t come to fruition until next Spring. And while it’s agreed that this will be a trial year, even if we succeed we won’t know until a year from now.

        Looking at this schedule, he stressful change will last a year at minimum. Which is hard to wrap my brain around.

  86. Anon to protect privacy*

    I need help.

    I work in an extremely bad environment, where turnover is high, management is severely burnt out, and the owner regularly shouts at and belittles his managers.

    I’m surviving, just, but one of my coworkers is in a bad way. She’s been with this company for many years, and I think feels she can’t do anything else. She’s also suicidally depressed and attempted to take her life. I know she’s not functioning well at work and has been given a PIP.

    This job is LITERALLY going to kill her but I don’t know what to do or say. She feels pinned down because she’s recently made a major purchase, so she feels she can’t just quit, and her depression makes it hard for her to job hunt.

    Anything you can suggest is appreciated.

    1. fposte*

      Help lines, EAPs, etc.

      Also the fact that you can sell major purchases again. It’s not worth feeling suicidal to keep the house or the car.

      1. Anon to protect privacy*

        No EAPs available.

        Help lines are a good suggestion.

        I will point out the purchase thing.

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          If there’s no EAP, would she consider talking to a therapist? Help lines, while useful, are kind of like emergency rooms – they make sure you’re stable in the short-term and then admit you to the hospital when necessary. The help line might be useful in the moment, but if you feel comfortable suggesting therapy, I definitely would. Suicidal ideation isn’t a healthy response to even chronic stress and I’d be concerned that something else could trigger it in the future.

          1. Sunshine Brite*

            If she is actively suicidal, she needs to be evaluated at a psychatric department of a hospital. Some hospitals have specific emergency departments dealing in mental health. Some counties have mobile crisis units to do in person assessments. Most have helplines. She isn’t going to have a successful job search if she stays in that environment and doesn’t make any changes.

            Therapy if she’s not actively suicidal to help frame her thought towards possibility and trying to envision that her life can be different and rebuild her sense of worth.

            1. CrazyCatLady*

              I missed the part where she actually made an attempt on her life! I agree with you that she should be evaluated by the psychiatric emergency department.

    2. Delyssia*

      I’ve never actually been suicidal because of a job, but I’ve had severe depression, accompanied by lots of suicidal ideation, because of a job. I eventually realized that when a job is dragging you down that much, there are a lot of extreme measures that are worth considering. She can sell or return the major purchase. If it’s a house, can she get roommates, so she can afford the house on a lower salary? Maybe she can work multiple jobs for a while, or move in with family, or cash in her 401k, or sell everything she owns that isn’t a basic necessity, or… whatever else she thinks she can’t do. Because if you’re at the point where you’re actually, literally suicidal because of a job, anything that could get you out of that job and let you get by is worth at least considering.

      In my case, I ended up quitting the awful job without having something else lined up. When I quit, I was in discussion with my former employer to return to my old job, and it ended up working out, but I was so desperately unhappy that it was worth leaping before I knew if there would be a net there or not. (My first back-up plan was bartending school. There’s one near me, it’s a reasonably small time and money commitment, and they offer placement assistance. But if I’d had to, I was prepared to move back to the midwest and move in with my parents for a while, even though there was a time in my life that I swore I would never move back to that state, let alone live in my parents’ house again.)

  87. Gingerbread*

    I can’t do this shit anymore. I wrote in a couple of weeks ago about how one of my coworkers quit so I had to take over her job as the event planner on top of my own job as marketing & operations coordinator. I don’t like event planning, but I was fine with it.

    Fast forward a couple of weeks, and we fired the ecommerce manager. Guess who has to take on her tasks too? Me. I’m only one person. How am I supposed to do three jobs accurately and efficiently? I talked to my boss about hiring someone, but they are enjoying the decreased payroll costs and do not plan on hiring anyone.

    I’ve tried to delegate some tasks to other coworkers, but my supervisor doesn’t like that as he “doesn’t trust them to do the job right”. I pride myself in being a hard worker, always stay late, etc, but this is just too much. I shouldn’t have to work 12 hour days to get my job done when I only signed up for one job, not three.

    On top of all of that, I’m annoyed by the fact that I get paid $30,000 while the event planner was getting paid $45,000 and the ecommerce manager was getting paid $80,000. I’m doing three full time jobs, working 60 hours a week, and getting paid $30,000.

    Sorry for complaining so much. I just do not know what to do anymore and I’m at my breaking point.

    1. AdjunctGal*

      You need to have a sit down with the boss and say, here’s how all of my responsibilities have changed. Can we work out a way that my workload is manageable and I am compensated better? If not, then, I think it’s time to start looking for a new job.

    2. Gingerbread*

      I wanted to do that, but I’m afraid since I’ve only been here for 6 months that they’ll turn down the raise. I know that the rule is one should wait at least a year until asking for a raise, but can my situation be considered an exception?

      1. Treena Kravm*

        The exception always exists when your job duties have changed dramatically. Ask!

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      What?

      That’s lunacy. It was lunacy before $30,000.

      What is crazier than lunacy, somebody help me out here.

      $30,000 a year is maybe an entry level marketing assistant in some areas of the country. I don’t know what to say other than take all the experience you can get for your resume and then get the hell out away from crazy people.

      1. Gingerbread*

        THANK YOU. The job (my “actual” job, as a marketing & operations assistant) was advertised at $38,000. The offer I received was for $30,000 and their excuse for that was that I’m a recent grad so they are “taking a chance” on me. I accepted it, and was okay with it, until the other two jobs were thrown at me.

        2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          This is literally what I do for a living. We have an ecommerce manager, and print marketers and marketing assistants and merchandisers. Even if your operations are smaller than ours, one person CAN’T wear all of those hats.

          You are so ridiculously underpaid for what they are asking you to do that I don’t see the point in asking for a raise. Are they going to double your salary at 6 months?

          The only plus in this is, if you are just starting out, you can grab some good resume stuff. Ecommerce managers get paid good money, generally pays much better than events, YMMV. So use ’em for whatever you can get out of it for your next job.

        3. land of oaks*

          NOPE! sorry but nope nope nope. You need to stop working so much extra time and successfully getting this much stuff done. I know it sucks, but as long as they haven’t seen any problems, they will not think anything needs to change. You need to sit down and tell them. But you also need to have a hard stop time every day and you need to just leave when you hit that time. And also loop them in everytime something is late or you won’t be able to hit a deadline. Just tell them straight out. Once they see consequences they might change things, but as long as you are actually doing three jobs for a terrible salary (wow you deserve so much more) they will be happy with the status quo.

          Sigh, I am sorry they are being jerks, though. I hope it gets better!

    4. Natalie*

      You work 12/hr days for $30K? Unless you live in the Alaskan wilderness that is BONKERS. Also, your title sounds suspiciously FLSA non-exempt but you don’t mention any OT pay.

      If they don’t figure something out for you soon (like, 2 weeks or so), if I were you I would just stop doing the extra stuff. Prioritize in whatever way makes the most sense, and then let the other things remain undone.

      1. Gingerbread*

        I’m exempt. My title is “project manager” but, as others here have confirmed, my duties do not fall within that scope which is why I call myself a marketing and operations coordinator. And, as the cherry on top of my shit pie, I live and work in LA where living expenses sure ain’t cheap.

        Thank you all for your advice. I have started looking for jobs but am afraid of what employers will think about me being at my current job for only 6 months. Until then, I’m going to have a talk with my manager on Monday about either giving me a raise or abdicating tasks to other people so I can go home at a decent hour every day.

        1. Natalie*

          Your title doesn’t determine whether you’re exempt, your regular job duties do. If your duties are in the general “coordinator” area, it’s extraordinarily unlikely that you are correctly classified.

          But that’s probably not a fight you want to have. Basically, you need to get out push back and get out. These people are taking advantage of you, and they have been from the beginning. Lowballing you on a coordinator job because they were “taking a chance” on a new grad? BULLSHIT. Coordinator jobs were made for new grads and are, like, 99% new grads (not an actual statistic). Alison has tons of good advice about a) how to push back on their nonsense and b) how to address the fact that you’re job searching shortly after being hired. I can see if I can dig up the links later.

        2. Snoskred*

          Gingerbread, you have an excellent reason for leaving this job and when/if anyone asks you why you were only at this job for 6 months, all you have to do is explain exactly what you have said here.. eg

          Well, I was hired to do X job, but Y job person left and they passed those duties on to me, and then Z person left and they passed those duties on to me, so all of a sudden I was doing 3 roles instead of 1, my work hours increased significantly, and they made it very clear to me they did not intend to hire anyone else to do Y and Z jobs, plus, they did not offer me any more money for taking on these extra roles or the extra time I was spending doing them, so I made the decision to move on.

          And like everyone else said, get out ASAP. :)

    5. Gingerbread*

      Thank you everyone! I am
      going to sit down with my boss on Monday and tell them what AdjunctGal advised–basically, I need a raise and a more manageable workload. I have started looking for a job, because as Wakeen said, they are unlikely to double my salary, but any raise is better than none until I find a better job.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        IMO, these are unethical people. $30,000 a year in marketing, in LA, is best possible spin, a paid internship. There’s no way in hell that is pay for an exempt position. (I realize that exempt/non-exempt is not legally defined that way, but real world, exempt positions in marketing pay a lot more than that.)

        Just keep in mind there is one thing you can get out of them that can change the rest of your career upwards: experience in events and ecommerce is valuable, like, really valuable. I’ve been doing open thread for a year and half now I guess and there have been multi posters saying things like “I’m desperate to break into marketing, how do I do this, this is hard”. I feel bad for them because it IS hard.

        I’ll go opposite to everybody else and suggest you stay there for the year. Suck everything you can, for you, out of these people. Parlay what you learn into a great career that doesn’t involve them.

        1. Gingerbread*

          They are unethical people, for more reasons than just this one. My supervisor often complains about my coworkers being “so lazy and stupid” and wonders why the good people always leave. Hmm, I wonder why that is. *sarcasm*

          You make a good point about staying for a year. I run into old classmates from time to time and many of them are having trouble finding a job without having much experience (we graduated last May), let alone one in marketing. In light of that, I can push myself through 4 more months (I said 6 months earlier, but I miscounted, heh).

  88. Relly*

    I’m wondering if I should change the spelling of my name on my resume. My name happens to be a male Persian name, and I’m a white woman, so I’m getting the feeling my resume is getting tossed based on assumptions that I’m a foreigner. Would it be a bad idea to “anglicize” my name and see if it makes a difference? I really like my name, but I’ve had no responses in months.

    1. Treena Kravm*

      If you were going to be called Relly at work, it would seem really weird to omit it. Do you have a middle name you can use/adopt that is the white woman equivalent?

      1. Relly*

        Well, the idea I was going for would that I would keep the same first name, but just spell it differently so it’s less “intimidating”, if that makes sense.

  89. A Definite Beta Guy*

    So, my Team Lead took credit for my research, after throwing a hissy fit about how my research was wrong, that I wasted time researching this at all, and finally hauling me in front of the Manager to have her explain why I was wrong (only to then be yelled at for wasting her time).

    My favorite line from earlier this month was “I can’t tie out this out, but I know it’s right.” Words that should never leave an Accountant’s month.

    I really hate life sometimes. On the plus side, AVENGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. Adam*

      “Where is Captain America when you need him?” is like a personal motto for me sometimes. So looking forward to the movie!

        1. Adam*

          Does the Scarlet Witch have a catchphrase? I could really use some warping of reality in my favor…

          1. Jennifer*

            She wants to get rid of the red in her ledger….
            I don’t think she’s very catchphrasey.

    2. Buu*

      On the plus the Manager *knows* they are stealing credit because they hauled you up in front of them!

      1. A Definite Beta Guy*

        Ya know, I really hope so, but a memory’s half-life in this department measures in the minutes.

  90. AdjunctGal*

    The end of the spring semester is almost here, and I want to get out of teaching desperately. I was thinking of sending my resume to temp agencies with a request to only send me the direct hire positions, as well as apply to jobs the old fashioned way. I have an MA, and am partway to a PhD, which I don’t plan to finish because it would just put me in more debt with no more job security than I have now, but I don’t seem to have exactly the right qualifications for much beyond being an admin who specializes in research. What should I be doing to maximize my time as well as not look intimidating because of my advanced degrees?

  91. Meg*

    For the academics out there, as well as the academic spouses (like me!): how do you deal with the tenure pressure? What is/was helpful for you?

    1. Marcela*

      I guess the most important thing was to make time for myself, because my husband could not take his mind out of the hunt and I needed to be patient and understanding, so every opportunity I could get to raise my happiness level and to relax was worth its weight in gold. Mind you, he doesn’t have tenure, he is now working in a national lab, after four years looking for positions, and getting only one phone interview (so much for the famous American meritocracy: our friends with PhDs from Harvard, Princeton and Berkeley got a tenure track position in their first try. My husband’s PhD is from a relatively new european university, although with a professor in the top of their area, and he got nothing in four years, and he wasn’t the only one coming from “unknown” universities not getting calls).

      One of my friends is the wife of a professor in the last year of the tenure track. She used to tell me the same thing, that she needed time to herself because when her husband needed to vent, she needed to stay calm, not to give advice but to listen. She told me it was useful to get somebody to help with the house chores, eliminating the need for him to help (and the fights when he was too tired to do it). She also needed to help him with his busy travel schedule and organize their home routines to fit around his, so for example he could see their children as much as he could when he was in the city. For her it was great to be a stay at home mom, it provided flexibility in the middle of their chaotic life. He got tenured last year, so now they are trying to adjust back to a peaceful lifestyle: we think he miss being in different cities almost every week :D

      1. Jillociraptor*

        This is such good advice. This spring was round three for my boyfriend on the academic market, and I’m finally learning that I need separation from that stress. We can’t both experience it 100%. Support, but with limits.

    2. Shannon*

      Ah, tenure! Everyone’s favorite process.

      I would say that 90% of my coping mechanisms during the tenure process had to do with being sure that I understood what was expected of me. The chair of the tenure committee when I started at my school wasn’t a detail oriented person, but luckily the next person who took over was. She was a tremendous resource for me in being sure I was focused in the right area. Talking to other people who have been through the process (successfully) recently can be a huge help as well. Not people who were tenured 10 years ago–that advice may not be reliable.
      Like any other performance evaluation process, it’s also really important to listen to the feedback you get during your pre-tenure reviews. If they say you need more peer-reviewed journals, do that. I have known people who disregarded that feedback because for whatever reason they felt it was wrong or didn’t apply to them, and that’s almost never successful.
      Finally, know that it’s a process run by people, so it’s imperfect, and you can’t let the results define you. I spent a lot of time after my packet was in focusing on my family, my health, and other aspects of my life, which was enormously helpful in remembering that what the tenure committees think of me has nothing to do with my actual self-worth. (I actually had a baby while I was waiting for my tenure results to come in–that will take your mind off of things!)
      Best of luck to your spouse!

  92. C Average*

    Quick update!

    I left my corporate gig two weeks ago. I’d been there for 8 years and loved the company, but hated my current role and my boss. They sent out a very nice farewell email saying lovely things about me, and we had a fun going-away cocktail hour at the campus pub. I left on what felt like really good terms.

    (I even gave my much-loathed manager a goodbye hug. She then asked me, “Can we please be Facebook friends now?” and she was actually serious. Even though I was buzzed on a couple drinks, I could only stammer, “Uh, sorry, I don’t think so.”)

    Since then, I’ve spent a week on the east coast, done a little bit of writing for an arts magazine editor I know through my mom, cleaned up the house, taken care of a bunch of family stuff, and run a ton of miles. I’m continuing to research for my novel and have gotten a bunch of outlining done, but still haven’t actually started the writing part. It’s been really wonderful to be around and available for the family and to have creative bandwidth. I feel really good about the decision.

    I’ve landed a part-time position with a local running store–I’ll be picking up a few hours a week and working some weekend events. I’m mostly doing it for fun. I’ve always enjoyed retail work; it’s just that the pay was crappy and the hours were erratic. Now that there’s no pressure to make any particular amount or accumulate a particular number of hours, I’m really happy to be back in a retail environment for a few hours a week. And running has always been my obsession, so getting paid to talk about running gear is pretty much a dream gig. I’ve worked in running shops in the past and really, really loved it.

    I’ll probably not be around here as much as I’ve been in the past. I’ve realized that I spent a lot of time here because it was a bright spot in an otherwise fairly dreary professional existence. Now I’m surrounded by bright spots! Life is truly not fair in my favor.

    1. CollegeAdmin*

      Congratulations and best of luck in your new adventures, C Average! It’s always been a pleasure reading your posts, and I hope you’ll still visit here every once in a while to chime in :)

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      Are you in Oregon, or have I confused you with someone else? In any case, please drop in at least occasionally, and share your bright spots with us. Good luck!

      1. C Average*

        I am in Oregon! And thanks, I will.

        (Part of the reason I suspect I’ll have less to say here is because, honestly, the longer I’m away from the corporate environment the more I realize how WEIRD that environment is: the unwritten rules, the unspoken norms, the pecking order, the nuances. I suspect I’m going to quickly forget all that I’ve learned about it, and thus won’t have any good advice for those still trying to coexist in that environment. As the Kool-Aid leaves my system, I’m starting to feel far more critical of the place I’ve spent the past 8 years than I ever did while I was there.)

    3. Fuzzy*

      Congratulations on your bright spots! It’s almost a graduation from AAM for you! *throws confetti* :)

    4. cuppa*

      I’m so happy to see things working out for you, C Average! I can’t believe your former manager still wants to be
      Facebook friends with you. Best wishes!

    5. Mimmy*

      Congratulations and best of luck!! Please feel free to let us know how things are going from time to time :)

    6. fposte*

      We’ll miss you, C! But it’s great that you’re finding such satisfaction. (And I dare you to revive the “people I don’t like” Facebook category and put your manager back on it.)

    7. Future Analyst*

      Love the update, thank you for letting us all know. But do stop by and let us know how things are going from time to time– it’s always great to hear of things working out. :)

  93. april ludgate*

    I just need to vent for a minute. There’s this woman I work with who has been driving me nuts. She makes small talk in the bathroom, like a five-minute long conversation while I’m trying to pee. Yesterday, she printed an email she got and walked into my office, interrupting what I was doing, to show it to me instead of just forwarding it. Today, she comes into my office and gets upset because my student worker didn’t finish processing some materials she left here yesterday, which were brought to me because of a feud between her and another coworker (she took them out of the coworker’s mailbox while that person is at a conference). Then she asked me to print out routing slips for a magazine that she and two other people want to look at when we get it in, so they can mark if they’ve seen it, which seems like an unnecessary waste of paper because this isn’t a big office and it’s not that hard to just put it in the next person’s mailbox. She keeps saying, “Can’t you have your students do that?” as if I don’t already have projects for them to do.

    Thank you for attending my princess parade. It feels good just to get this out.

    1. Rebecca*

      That sounds frustrating! I too have a “bathroom follower” and if she sees me going into the bathroom, she follows me and says “Rebecca, is that you?” Yes. “Well, my dog did this” or “did you see that article in the paper about…”. I hate this! I just want to pee in peace and not carry on a conversation in the bathroom :( I don’t even know how to address it without seeming like a real witch.

      As far as the magazine, tell her just to initial the upper right corner of the cover and pass it on. Good grief that woman sounds wound up.

      1. april ludgate*

        Luckily she doesn’t follow me, apparently we’re just on a similar bathroom schedule! If I see her heading there at the same time as me I’ll turn around and wait her out. It is one of those things that’s hard to address, though, especially since she does not take social cues for ending a conversation! I feel like it’s just etiquette to not make conversation with someone who’s in a bathroom stall.

        And the magazine thing is absurd. I said that since only three of them read it she could have it first, then it could go in Donna’s mailbox and when Donna finishes it can go to Leslie’s box. But that was apparently too complicated. Way more complicated than me having to create and print a slip to staple to the magazine once a week. I mean I can obviously print multiple copies at a time, but it’s still unnecessary extra work.

  94. FormerEditor*

    Is anyone else looking at the #talkpay trending topic on Twitter right now? It’s mostly salaries in the tech industry, but a lot of people here would find the open talk of salaries relevant.

  95. SoBurnedOut*

    At what point can you tell that it’s not truly because the hiring manager decided to go with the other candidate because he was “slightly more qualified” and it’s actually because you did poorly in the on-site interview? I’ve had six in person interviews since mid March. Only one converted into an offer, but it was for a role different from the one I’d applied for. In three of the remaining opportunities I was told that I was one of two final candidates.

    What are some ways to determine whether it’s actually something that I’m doing poorly and can improve on? Would love to hear your thoughts!

    1. TheExchequer*

      Do you have any friends you trust to give you constructive criticism that you can role play an interview with?

      Also, I have a notebook in my car. Right after the interview, I’ve been writing down things that went well and things I thought I could improve on (as well as a list of positives and negatives about working at the company). Maybe that could help you?

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        The notebook is a fantastic idea!

        I make a point to practice with friends ahead of every interview, to calm my nerves and to prepare. I haven’t gotten much negative feedback from them. We’ve really used this more as an exercise to refine our answers and make sure we sound comfortable and natural when we talk.

    2. fposte*

      You don’t get to be one of two finalists if you did poorly in the interview.

      Could you do better? Maybe, I don’t know. One possibility would be to change your feedback request from “Tell me if I do anything wrong” to “What areas could I strengthen?”

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        I’m not sure either! I’m almost two years out of undergrad and have been working at the same job for a year and six months. A lot of these positions were asking for 1-3 years of experience in investment banking or finance–I worked for (and quickly graduated to outright running) a sector-specific accelerator program. That gives me some finance experience, but in most cases it’s still a reach. I guess reaching in two areas might be reaching a little too far.

  96. Allison*

    I’m a junk food junkie, and I’m a little embarrassed about it. I’m in good shape; I get plenty of exercise through swing dancing most nights a week, and I eat generally healthy meals – eggs, fruit, whole grains, lean chicken breasts, veggies, etc.; I essentially shop the outside of the supermarket when I go grocery shopping. But during the workday, I eat lots of bagged, crunchy food like (reduced fat) potato chips, Smartfood, Pirate’s Booty, etc.

    I used to work in a cubicle where I could eat my junk in private, and dispose of it in a trash can under my desk. The only people who knew the true nature of my snacking were the people who emptied the trash bins every couple of days. But now I work in a truly open environment and not only can people see me noshing, I have to dispose of the bags in a shared trash can. And a lot of people on my team try to eat healthy and look down on junk food eaters like me, so I’ve been taking the empty bags home to dispose of them there, worried that someone will see my bags in the trash and go “oh my, who’s eating all these unhealthy snacks?”

    Am I being paranoid? Should I worry about how my health habits are perceived? Is this normal?

    1. C Average*

      Judgmental people are gonna judge and haters are gonna hate. It’s in their nature.

      I am a fairly dedicated distance runner and an unapologetic junk food junkie, and I used to get the stink-eye from my green-smoothie-swilling colleagues while I ate my doughnuts and cookies. But I continued eating said doughnuts and cookies because, hey, I like doughnuts and cookies, it’s my body, and I exercise enough to eat what I want to eat. It sounds like the same is true of you.

      The one thing I’d say about chips and other crunchy foods is that they’re loud in a shared environment. If you’re getting the stink-eye when you’re eating crunchy food, it may be more about the noise than the nutritional content. Just something to be aware of.

      1. Allison*

        I don’t know if I’m getting the stink eye at all! I’m more worried about someone seeing me eat junk food or seeing the wrappers in the trash, and making a comment about it. Someone already told me that if I went to the gym I wouldn’t need to drink energy shots. People loooove to judge my energy shot consumption . . . on their way to the kitchen to make themselves another cup of coffee . . .

        1. Lindsay J*

          People get so judgy about energy shots and energy drinks.

          People that smoke criticize me all the time about how bad energy drinks are for me.

    2. Rebecca*

      It’s no one’s business what you eat, how much you eat, the nutritional content or lack thereof, or any other aspect of what you choose to put in your mouth. There’s a new country song that I heard this week, and one of the lines says “mind your own biscuits, and life will be gravy”.

      You are there to work, not conform to your coworker’s idea of healthy eating. As Ann Landers might have said, they need to MYOB.

      1. Allison*

        Hmmm maybe I need to put “mind your own biscuits” on my desk somewhere . . .

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Careful–someone will take the biscuits while you’re away from your chair…!

      2. SoBurnedOut*

        I absolutely agree! It’s so obnoxious to comment on other peoples’ dietary choices when it’s not affecting your own wellbeing.

        1. Allison*

          Well . . . it could be affecting them though. If you’re trying to eat healthy, and you and your colleagues are all trying to eat better, you may have made an unofficial pact that you’ll all help motivate each other to eat better. My eating might be making things tough for them, AND they may feel that it’s their duty to help by calling out bad eating habits.

          1. Cat*

            Nope. They don’t get to assume you’re part of their efforts to eat healthy. If you make an explicit pact with them, maybe, but honestly, that stuff is usually better kept out of the workplace. But if you haven’t explicitly talked about this, what you eat has no bearing on them whatsoever and they need to shut it.

            1. Stephanie*

              Ha, that video was great. That was me earlier today: went to Whole Foods…after I had In-N-Out for lunch.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Oh my dear! You work hard. It’s okay to snack at work. Please don’t feel you have to hide your habits.

      I am famous for my M&M Stress jar. It’s a lovely glazed pottery container with a lid. When things are approaching deadline, or coworkers are being jerks, all day you can hear tink, tink, as I pull off the lid and grab handfuls of chocolate. I can go through a large bag in a day.

      My coworker on the other side of my cubicle wall is a granola bar and nut fiend. He crunches constantly. He’s a runner and prefers small meals or snacks throughout the day. It’s what works for him. (On Fridays, he has to vacuum his chair.)

      Munching low-fat chips to get through the day is no different than the caffeine addicts who are making fresh pots at 5 pm.

    4. Dawn*

      Yeah you’re being paranoid. You do not have to justify your eating habits to ANYONE. Now, I am a big fan of the “Come to Jesus” talks with yourself about your personal eating habits and making sure that you’re not stress eating or bored eating or on your way to an eating disorder. However if you have made room in your life and in your nutrition to eat (INSERT FOOD HERE) then give everyone the finger and enjoy your damn food!

      I have a good friend who’s a figure competitor who makes room in her daily nutrition to eat a pop tart. She has an entire shelf in her pantry full of like every flavor of pop tart that exists! Every day! Even when she’s prepping for a show. And every time anyone comments about it she’s like “Look, I make room in my life for pop tarts because I love them, and it’s nonya bizness what I eat!”

      1. Allison*

        at our old office we had free pop tarts in the kitchen. sometimes they were s’more pop tarts which are my favorite. not sure if they have them at the new office, we have multiple small kitchens throughout the facility and they’re making a point of offering healthy snacks and no junk food, because some people are trying to eat super healthy and don’t want to be tempted with stuff they feel they’re not supposed to eat (I guess I get it, your metabolism starts to suck when you reach a certain age, but I’m 25 so I’m not really there yet). I have some hoarded in my desk from mornings where I grabbed a packet but didn’t eat them, but might need to start buying some pop tarts.

      2. Allison*

        Also, I haven’t had a “come to Jesus” talk with myself, but I do think I may be going through a major depressive episode which is responsible for my ravenous appetite and intense cravings for cheese. not a good time. BUT all the cheese and grease means a nice lining to protect my stomach from the acidic energy drinks, which help with the depression, so there’s that.

        1. SoBurnedOut*

          Just wanted to pop in to say that that is a hilarious way to frame your stress diet– it’s very much like my high-stress eating habits.

          I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through a rough time. Sending good thoughts your way!

        2. LizB*

          …is depressive episode = cheese cravings a common thing? Because that would explain so much about my eating habits.

  97. brightstar*

    Recently, a friend of mind worked less than a week at a new position before giving notice, as the job she had really wanted finally made an offer. This made me realize how much reading AAM for 5 years and being put in a supervisory position has changed my thinking on professional behavior. I didn’t say anything either to her or mutual friends, but I was dismayed to find out she’d done this. And if I had been her manager at the job, I would have told her not to worry about working out those two weeks while I appreciated her giving notice. Why spend the time, money, and resources on someone who gives notice after less than a week?

    Addendum: I’m also happy for my friend that she got this job she really wanted.

    I thought it was interesting how my perspective has changed over the past few years for what, I believe, makes me a stronger worker.

  98. Jill 2*

    What do you do when you realize your boss is very poorly respected within your organization? My boss is really struggling, and I knew from the day I started, she wasn’t a good manager for me in terms of her taking a vested interest in my working and helping me grow. But I have learned this week that it’s a lot worse than I realized. What can I do to help/protect myself?

    Some examples are that everything we produce now has to be vetted by senior executives in our office. She cancels my 1-on-1 with her every single week. I do my best to get in front of her and re-schedule, but it’s impossible. She can’t stay on top of her work, and never answers email. So I’ve tried to catch her in her office or text or call, but she’s either unavailable or won’t answer. When I do get her, she changes her mind constantly. She gives me an edit, I present it to her, and she doesn’t like it. That’s another thing — I have zero ownership of my work. I understand that she’s the Director and everything reflects on her, but I feel like I have zero agency at this point.

    The frustrating thing is that I know she really likes me, and she’s even pushed for me to attend a conference (rare in my office). But I worry now knowing that people above her and her peers don’t respect her, so I worry it’ll reflect poorly on me.

    Any advice?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      As far as protecting yourself…it sounds like the rest of the company knows what’s up and any failures on your manager’s part shouldn’t be deflected to you.

  99. Daydreamer*

    This isn’t a question, but is a “Happy Friday!” kind of moment.
    I work at a post-secondary institution in an academic department. As part of my role, I collaborate with another department on various events and projects. The head of that department has moved on to a new role, so I reached out with a “I hate to see you go but congrats on the new role! Please keep in touch!” email. The response I received has had me smiling since I read it. “Thank you for all your hard work in MyDept and YourDept, and your help with PersonA and PersonB, and on X, Y, Z. I very much appreciate the support you’re providing PersonB.”
    Now in my department, I don’t get a great deal of positive feedback. Heck, even constructive feedback is hard to come by. One of many frustrations with my current role. But to hear from the head of this other department meant so much to me — it’s a person I respect so much, and that makes the words mean so much more.
    *grin*
    Add to that an event plan coming together very well, and seeing a cute Jack Russell puppy, oh and the fact it’s Friday… it’s just been a good day. :)

    1. Sparrow*

      That’s great! It’s always nice to receive an email like that. Good reminder that I need to send positive feedback to people when appropriate. Always nice to think that a simple gesture could make someone smile. Happy Friday!

      1. Daydreamer*

        Me too, Sparrow. I need to share my thanks and happy thoughts with my colleagues, I think. Let them know how appreciated they are. :)
        Happy Friday!

      2. College Career Counselor*

        Keep that email in a “psychological income” folder and review on the not-so-great days.

  100. Unhappy*

    What do you do when an assertive coworker (alpha male type guy in client relations) stops asking for your input and carries on conversations about things you’ll end up doing with the rest of your team while faced away from you? The killer is that I know if I bring it up, everyone will be (probably genuinely) confused about what I’m talking about. The second one is that we don’t really have a boss except for hire/fire stuff and neither does this guy. One of my team members is supposed to keep track of schedules, and it would be different if alpha guy inappropriately treated him like a manager, but he’s talking to everyone but me. I know this sounds rather high school and means I should speak up, but I’m an introvert and I and my teammates are hired to do a job introverts usually do, and I feel so ill while it is happening I know I wouldn’t control my voice well.

    (Yes, I would love to quit, but until then…?)

    1. fposte*

      How much of this is while you’re there, and how much of this is while you’re not? While you’re there is easier to deal with–keep making contributions regardless of where he’s faced. If he’s leaving you off of email chain or whatever, you can talk to him face to face about how to make sure that doesn’t happen or send him a puzzled email asking for clarification.

      And not speaking up isn’t an introvert thing. It’s an inexperience and nervousness thing. But it doesn’t sound like what he’s doing requires you taking him to task or confronting him or anything dramatic–just mostly ignoring him and carrying on.

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        At one point about a year ago I had a coworker behave in the same way. I started to try out some more aggressive body language with her– moving myself squarely into her field of vision if she turns away, widening my stance, “manspreading” (I’m a 5’1.5” woman 100 pounds soaking wet). Strangely enough it started to work, and he’s tapered off quite a bit!

        Old habits die hard, though, so I’ve had to continue to engage in that way to keep him in check.

        1. SoBurnedOut*

          I should mention that he was an MBA intern working for our organization that I was managing as a still wet-behind-the-ears recently minted undergrad. It was a really weird dynamic to be in!

          1. Unhappy*

            That is an encouraging story! This guy is somewhere close to 7 feet, but he doesn’t actually act like a bully (I mean he’s probably just forgetting about me), so hopefully some assertive posture helps as well as speaking up. We are in an open bay of desks, so it would not be too difficult to move myself into his field of vision.

      2. Unhappy*

        Thank you, and I really appreciate calling me out on my introvert excuse. I think there is some emailing behind my back but I can’t always tell. I will muster up the courage to contribute and try to remember it is part of my job no matter how this guy acts.

    2. plain_jane*

      I’d try saying “dude”, and then squirt him with a water pistol each time he does it. :) Or else walk around him and bring your chair into the middle of the people he _is_ talking to.

      Really depends on the work environment of course.

      1. Unhappy*

        Funnily enough (not to me right now though) it’s the kind of place where you can say anything as long as it’s joking, but have to be careful when it’s serious. Probably too many computers around for water…but I have a nerf gun in my drawer!

  101. Sparrow*

    Several weeks ago I had posted about supporting a new-to-me software system in the system analyst role. I had been in my previous role (supporting Teapot Design Systems) for 14 years and was finding it challening to start over and support a new system. There was also the concern about some of the senior people on my new team being let go which could leave me as the sole (inexperienced) analyst. Since then some of the project work has picked up. It’s been nice to have some actual work to do but I still have a lot to learn.

    A couple of days ago I was contacted by a former co-worker in another department about an opening on his team. It would be a more business oriented role and it is related to the old Teapot Design Systems I used to support. I would now be on the other side writing requirements to hand over to IT instead of on the analyst side writing requirements for the developers.

    I’m excited about this (potential) new position and I’m not entirely happy in my current role, but at the same time I feel bad leaving. Moving back to working with more familiar systems sounds appealing. But I also feel like I’m slacking by not rising up to the challenge of learning this new system.

    Another thing is that as part of our internal job system, I’m required to notify my current manager before I apply to any positions. I’ve never applied for an internal position before, so I’m kind of nervous and feel bad about telling him I might be looking at moving to another team. My manager is in another state, so I was thinking of sending an email like this:

    I was recently contacted by another group about an opening on their team. They were interested in my experience with the Teapot Design System. I would like to apply for the position to see what the job entails and if it would be a good fit for my skills. As part of the internal job posting process, I wanted to notify you that I was going to apply for this position. Please let me know if you want to discuss further over the phone.

    Is the email okay? Anything else I should consider when looking to do an internal transfer?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Unless you are in a position where you never speak to your manager on the phone, consider calling and telling your manager directly. This is one of those situations that you need to be forward with you manager and give them the opportunity to respond. If you have regular check-ins, that would be the perfect time to bring it up.

      1. Sparrow*

        My manager is in a different state and time zone, so our primary communication is email and IM. I actually had a one-on-one meeting this past week, but it was before I found out about this new opening. The only reason I considered email was to give him time to process the information and maybe come up with any questions he had. We do have a staff meeting call on Monday, so maybe I’ll just speak to him afterwards. Thanks!

  102. Canadian Maternity Leave Question*

    I started a new job in September. This company is widely known as being the best employer in my relatively small town – great salary and benefits, understanding work-life balance, friendly atmosphere, equal opportunity, etc. I’m very, very fortunate to be here. When I started in September I was on contract and was promoted into a full-time permanent role two months ago.

    My husband and I plan to start trying to a child in July. That would put me at potentially going on maternity leave 13 months after my start date, then taking my one year off for maternity leave. I guess my question is, is that too early and should I wait longer, say closer to the end of the year? Am I putting too much thought into this timing and should focus on what is right for me snd my husband? I will be coming back to work and ideally will be working at this company for the remainder of my career. Thanks for your advice, I just feel like I don’t know what is the right/wrong thing to do in this situation, and not many of my friends are having children yet so I don’t have them to talk to about it. I’m 28, if you are curious.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      While it’s nice that you want to consider the schedule of your employer, that shouldn’t be a factor in your decisions. What works for you and your husband is what you should consider. Also consider that getting pregnant can take much longer than any of us plan and babies come when they want.

    2. Daydreamer*

      It sounds like your employer would be understanding about taking a maternity leave if they’re as understanding about work-life balance and a supportive atmosphere. My thought would be to see how things go with the “trying” and not think too hard about the timing. It’s hard to know how long it will take for you to get pregnant, and that doesn’t always go along with the schedules we may lay out.
      There’s no right or wrong when it comes to starting a family in my mind. But if you’re concerned, can you ask your colleagues how other mat leaves have been handled in the past?

    3. some1*

      My former company hired two women who were in their 3rd trimesters, knowing they’d obviously be going on leave soon (one was a sup). You’re overthinking it.

  103. Jill 2*

    A separate comment — last week, I was really nervous about a meeting with senior leadership that I was asked to attend. It ended up being just as bad as I feared. I really had nothing to contribute, and add to that, I was very nervous about being in a room with them. I just couldn’t speak freely. I had to present at one point, and even though my voice didn’t shake, I did a poor job. It wasn’t the best impression to leave, so I am disappointed in myself.

    However, coming out of this meeting, I had a VERY negative reaction to my company. VERY. To the point where I don’t think I should be working here anymore. What I see on the ground in my office is vastly different from our corporate headquarters, and our whole meeting was about unifying the offices and going in a new direction. The way leadership currently views our organization and (more importantly) their views for the future don’t align with my views/feelings at all. It is so much more cutthroat and narrowly focused than I had wished.

    I also realized that I am not doing as well as I thought, at least in the context of the company overall. I don’t have ambitions to rise within the company, so I don’t get involved in matters outside my circle. I just focus on doing a good job at my particular job, and I don’t extend myself beyond that. Based on what I read on this site, this makes me just an average employee, and I’m okay with that. I’ve always been an overachiever, though, so it was a bit hard to realize that I am really underwhelming compared to the senior leaders and directors I was with. I will never get there, because my attitude is so different. It was really humbling.

    At the same time, I learned a lot more about my company in three days than in the past 9 months. However, it rubbed me the wrong way. There was so much gossip and shit-talking about people behind their backs. It made me feel gross, and I didn’t engage, because that’s not my style. And so, if that’s part of what it takes to rise (in terms of gathering intel and so forth), then I definitely don’t want to be a part of that.

    I guess I just want to figure out how I can keep my head down and do my job, and also build a reputation for myself as a solid worker. I think I have, but I feel like I’ve failed on so many other counts too. Sorry, this was a very disjointed post. I’ve just been reeling from my experience this week and am having a hard time articulating my thoughts, and also figuring out where I go from here.

    1. C Average*

      I don’t have any good advice, but just want to say that I can very much relate.

      I recently left a corporate job where I witnessed many things similar to what you’ve described. It was easy, while I was there, to enjoy the many perks of the workplace and to tell myself that I was a good employee because I tried to be conscientious, thoughtful, reliable, and hard-working. The slow realization that I was never going to be considered a rock star because I didn’t self-promote and didn’t have big ambitions was a tough one. And the realization that many of the people at the top of the org chart were arrogant, petty, jargon-spouting, kiss-up-and-kick-down cliches was equally tough to accept.

      Now that I am away from that environment, I feel the way I felt when after graduating from high school: relieved to be free, and slightly stunned that I survived so long in such a ridiculous place.

      I know that wasn’t my last rodeo. I know I’ll face future environments where the game is played a certain way, and I will learn the rules and assume my position within the pecking order. I guess if there’s anything I can take away from these experiences, it’s the knowledge that I’ve tried my best to behave with integrity and kindness in environments that weren’t always conducive to it, and in some ways that’s its own reward. I suspect you can say the same.

      1. Jill 2*

        Hey C Average — I know it’s a little late for this, but I really appreciate your comments. I’ve been seeing your posts about you leaving your job, and I really respect your insight. I’m glad I’m not alone.

        I will never be able to self-promote, I do not have big ambitions, and I suck at public speaking. People can advise me all they want to change these things about myself, but I’m starting to feel like — well, this IS myself. This is me. Why is that such a terrible thing? Clearly, the issue is environment. But ALL employers talk about how much they want proactive go-getters. I have such a hard time reading between the lines and sussing out the real truth. I hope I get better at it.

    2. Anon. Scientist*

      I had something similar happen when I first became a project manager and got invited to the annual meeting for the company bigwigs (15,000 employee firm) and found out that my division was being positioned to do all the cheap stuff (competing for work solely on price). I’m a technical lady, and I want to work somewhere technical knowledge is appreciated. So that meeting, which was supposed to be a way to showcase an up and coming young manager, was actually the final push that got me to leave.

      1. Jill 2*

        Very interesting! My moment was realizing just how profit-seeking and revenue-driven the bigwigs were. I know I sound like a complete Pollyanna, but when we as a team were told to think about ways to improve our culture, the President said, “Don’t think about anything that doesn’t drive revenue.” For CULTURE.

        I took this job for the money, and so I should have known it would be like this. Lesson learned.

  104. Kate P.*

    Asking on behalf of my husband this time…

    My husband has a problem with a co-worker constantly avoiding her job. While they have different titles, some of their responsibilities overlap, so they frequently wind up working together on projects – usually big, long-term projects that take weeks of work from both of them. Almost invariably, this woman does a minimal amount, but either neglects to finish her share or does it so poorly that its essentially useless and has to be redone. My husband, needless to say, is the one who redoes it. He hates it, and it eats up his valuable time covering for her, but he doesnt want to be attached to a string of unsuccessful projects because of her laziness.

    Problem is…she then winds up taking credit for all his work. Very publicly and explicitly. Moreover, she’s lied in the past about contributing to his solo projects, to which she wasn’t even invited, in order to make herself look good. Poor husband is getting fed up.

    I work in team management, so I’ve tried advising him, but our companies are structured so differently its like speaking a different language. I work for a branch of a big corporation, with very rigidly defined roles and titles and a clear chain of command. He works in a creative industry, for a company of about 15 people. He’s the only one in his “department”, the chain of command is so fluid as to be practically nonexistent, and the closest thing to a manager or HR supervisor is the producer, who just generally oversees the entire staff, in addition to contributing content in his own right. So, there’s no obvious person to complain to or to mediate a disagreement. In fact, they seem to eschew hierarchical organization entirely, preferring an egalitarian creative team with just the general direction of the producer as guidelines. So of course, my advice to do things like ask to be appointed project manager, or assign tasks, etc don’t go over well with the rest of the team.

    Does anyone have experience in this kind of environment and have some advice on how to approach this? Its mostly a great environment, and my husband has really thrived there, but this one issue is driving him crazy.

    1. Treena Kravm*

      My husband works in a similar environment (15 people, egalitarian) but everyone does technically have a manager. His company has a handful of founders/owners, although only 2 take on huge leadership roles. One of the owners has been simply not working lately and everyone noticed. So they’ve been addressing it and gave my husband the heads up (in a “we realize you’re noticing this, and we don’t want you to think we’re ignoring it” kind of way). He made an offhand comment that he didn’t think an owner had the same standards as a payroll employee (why he hadn’t said anything until then). He was met with a very serious reply telling him that if any of the owners tries to pull that, that he needed to tell them (2 leadership owners) immediately because it was unacceptable.

      So all that to say that if it really is a healthy work environment with high expectations aside from this one thing, they’ll want to know about it. Who does he have his annual review with? That’s the person he wants to talk to about this.

    2. pony tailed wonder*

      I don’t have experience with this but maybe he can start saying things like “Oh Sally, you must be thinking of another project. I worked on that one solo”, “Oh there you go again Sally, you know that was a team effort,” etc. Also, he needs to start documenting what he does on something that can be time stamped. Perhaps a daily e-mail to himself about what he did? A paper trail will be his friend.

  105. Sunflower*

    Question about referrals. A couple of my friends work at a big company in my city. I’ve found a couple jobs there I’d be interested in that are in a totally different department than them. I’ve asked them about the job and they don’t know much about them but told me to go ahead and apply. These are people I strictly know socially(one is my best friend from HS so she knows me really well) but they don’t know me in a professional setting. There’s a section on the online application where you can chose if you’re ‘referred by a friend’ and write the friend’s name in. Do I write their name in? It’s not like they are recommending me for the job but they told me to apply so how does this work? Is a referral different from a recommendation?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      In my experience, a referral is just that, and please do write her name on the application! If they hire you, she might get a bonus. :) I make referrals and recommendations, and I did one of each recently. Here’s how it worked:

      Referral: We’re hiring, I told my boyfriend, he passed along the job description to some of his colleagues. One of them emailed me with her resume, I sent it directly to our Head of Operations. I said in my email, “She’s a colleague of my boyfriend’s; I don’t know her, but her resume looks good, here it is.”

      Recommendation: We’re hiring, a girl I used to work with just got laid off and is considering relocating to my city. I asked her to send me her resume, which she did. I passed it to the Head of Operations and said, “I worked with her back at Old Company and I think she’s terrific! She would be a great asset to our team. Happy to answer any questions about her.” Then I asked my former co-worker to keep me posted if she heard anything and to feel free to email me with any questions about the job or the company.

      For the first, I make no promises on either end. For the second, I’m actually going to bat for the person based on professional experience.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I think the two are different- referred to apply usually just means that somebody told you there are openings, recommended means they spoke with someone involved in hiring/were asked by someone in hiring about the applicant’s work habits. It’s fair to mention their names- all they have to say if someone asks them about you is that they haven’t worked with you before/yada yada.

  106. Lamington*

    How can i get the most of mentoring? my first mentor just was interested on getting a job at my company, so she never mentor just drain me for contacts. The second mentor treat our sessions like a book club, just gave me material to read, adk me what i thought and tell me to try what i read. a lot of the suggestions i had tried before and others that wouldnt work on my job. we have been assigned another mentor via the prof organization that i belong to, but im not even sure I want to do it.

    1. fposte*

      I wonder if assigned mentoring is part of the problem. In my experience it’s more something that happens outside of a formal arrangement.

      Have you got an idea of what you’d like mentoring to do for you? That might be a good place to start. Do you want to grow in your field, learn about how to grow in your field, develop your technical skills, meet network-relevant people, what? Part of the problem may be that these aren’t people who have a plan of what to do for you, and they may be grateful if you can tell them what you’re hoping for.

  107. ExJourno*

    Anyone have tips to spruce up a professional wardrobe/appearance on the cheap?

    I’m about a month into my new job, and the office is much more formal than what I’m used to. I know my clothes are technically OK according to the dress code, but I often feel like I look less polished than my coworkers.

    Part of my discomfort comes from recent weight gain that pushed me from a ladies’ size 14/16 to an 18/20. I hold much of my weight in my belly, so I often find that “professional” fabrics are unflattering. I hate the way I look with a tucked-in shirt and I feel like a loud, stompy giant when I wear heels, but a slacker when I wear ballet flats.

    And is there a more professional way to wear long hair? I “do” my hair every morning, but it’s straight and kind of fine, and I feel like it looks messy.

    Any advice? I feel like a real imposter in this office.

    1. AVP*

      Can you try a pair of oxfords, for the shoe part? I have a pair that feels pretty formal and they work well with skirts or pants (although I think you have to be comfortable with the shape of your calves to wear with a skirt). They have maybe a half-inch lift as part of the back heel, but basically wear like flats.

      2. HeyNonnyNonny*

        I got a very cheap pair of Oxfords from Gap. Although they’re not going to stand up to years of use, they look nice and they’re quite comfortable.

    2. Xarcady*

      Long, fine, straight hair can look professional in a french braid. If you can tuck the braid part up under the “french” part of the braid, you have an updo that will stay in place all day.

      Short-term, study your co-workers. Choose one or two people who have a style that you would like to copy. Look at their outfits. What is it that they are doing that makes them look more polished? Is it their accessories? Do they wear necklaces, scarves, earrings, bracelets that set a certain tone? Is it their shoes? The colors they put together? Do they wear layers? I always feel more “professional” when I have a “top layer” over the shirt or tee that is the basis of my outfit. A casual blazer, a cardigan, any of the current trend of open cardigans, all can add a level of authority and professionalism. There are a few shirts and tops out there that are equally professional, but it takes some hunting to find them.

      While you are studying other people and learning what would work for you, start saving up your pennies. I think from what you’ve said that you would be better served by buying a few really good things, rather than a bunch of inexpensive pieces.

      I’d plan for one really good pair of shoes, one good pants suit possibly with a skirt to match (the pieces of which can be worn separately), one good white button down shirt, a good cardigan that goes with the suit pieces, and a couple of shirts/tops that go with most of your other clothes. Quality counts.

      Check out good shoe stores–Nordstroms is fantastic, but if there isn’t one in your area, check out small, local stores. I have good luck with stores that advertise that they specialize in hard-to-fit feet. Not because my feet are hard to fit, but because they tend to stock quality brands in lots of sizes and can usually find several options for you once you tell them what you are looking for.

      Check out sales at the larger department stores. I used to shun them, until I had to help a friend go shopping. If you shop the sales and clearance racks, plus take advantage of store coupons, you can come away with some amazing deals.

      1. Sara*

        Suggestions on places to get a casual blazer that won’t break the bank? I work in an environment that I suppose could be described as “business casual” but I recently saw one of my coworkers wear a blazer and I loved the look!

        1. hermit crab*

          I was browsing in H&M today and they had a whole selection of blazers that would be great for the business-casual-blazer look.

    3. Kate P.*

      Been there! A really easy thing to do is accessorize. I go to cheaper places like Old Navy, Charming Charlie, or Claire’s and pick up a couple pairs of earrings, a new watch, or a necklace. If the areas you’re trying to improve are your shirt and your hair, that’s perfect. A nice necklace draws attention up to your face and makes even a plain shirt look fancy, and a barrette, head wrap, or set of decorated bobby pins (depending on what would be appropriate in your office and how you wear your hair) make even a plain ponytail look dressy – and could also help keep a hairdo more securely in place.

      When you do eventually want to spend more on a more permanent professional wardrobe, I’d say – nice loose tunic-style tops can be very pretty and professional, and will give you a straighter profile that might help you feel more confident about your waistline. (N.B. – Everyone is beautiful, and looking good is mostly about feeling confident, wearing what you think you look good in, and letting that natural loveliness shine through. :) Investing in some pretty knits in a nice material, like a silk or linen yarn, may also be office appropriate, and would be a much more forgiving and soft fabric. Paired with a blazer, I think most offices would be just fine with that.

      For shoes, there are so many options beyond heels and ballet flats! Again, this depends on your office and your personal style, but there are loads of options. If most people wear heels, you could try a kitten heel or a dressy wedge. I also noticed that men’s styles are very “on trend” right now, so there are lots of women’s options in things like oxfords or loafers.

      Best of luck!

    5. Sparrow*

      Check out the blog Wardrobe Oxygen and look through the “Ask Allie” posts. I think I remember seeing some of her posts address your questions. I find them helpful because she posts specific examples of clothing. I like The Small Things Blog for hair tutorials.

    6. Serin*

      I’m about your size and shape, and I look more polished in long, untucked tops with some structure to them — a gather at the lower back to shape them, a peplum effect, things like that. (Alternately you can wear an ordinary T-shirt in a slightly more polished than average fabric, and then top it with a cardigan that’s a little more structured.)

      On the bottom you want pencil skirts or narrow, unfussy pants.

      For a good approach to shoes, go to Zappos and search for “walking mary janes.” About half of your hits will be too casual, but look for leather shoes where the upper and the sole are the same color and you’ll find lots of options.

  108. MaryMary*

    How many of you would be bothered if your manager was not in the office (working from home) the same days you were? My office recently moved “Jane” into a managerial role. She has a previously negotiated schedule where she works from home twice a week. Some people are complaining about having a manager who isn’t in the office every day. I tend to think this is complaining from people who aren’t happy with the change and would find something to complain about for anyone in the role. I’ve always found Jane to be very responsive when ever I’ve needed to talk to her on a work from home day. The only concern I can think of is that people might have a privacy issue if they have to talk to her as a manager about something confidential on a work from home day. We work in cubicles and you can overhear anything people say when they’re talking on the phone. However, I’d think someone could take their cell phone into a conference room or hallway to call her, just like we do any other time we want to have a private phone conversation. Am I minimizing legitimate concerns?

    1. Sunshine Brite*

      My office is almost all working remote or working out of different offices. We make sure to have monthly meetings with the supervisors to be able to touch base on anything as well as our daily as needed contact virtually. My supervisor is also super flexible about putting someone on her calendar who requests. These requests don’t sound super legitimate to me if she has some sort of standing meeting with each of them or remains available. Maybe not even the meeting since it sounds like they see each other throughout the week.

    2. Jamie*

      I wouldn’t care – I can get what I need from my boss from email or a phone call just as well we seeing him at work.

      I can imagine it being an issue for those who need more hands on managing. There are people who aren’t as comfortable working autonomously who would absolutely be upset by this. Whether it’s reasonable or not depends on the role, but I’d argue that if it’s not reasonable to expect people to work without onsite management it shouldn’t be an option for the manager.

    3. Traveler*

      I’ve had a manager offsite multiple days a week and I hated it. It meant reorganizing my schedule and priorities to accommodate Jane, and taking extra time formulating things into emails/phone conversations that would have taken 2 seconds if she’d just been there in person, which sometimes hurt productivity. It also hurt morale, because whether or not it was fair, Jane started seeming like a special snowflake, and it became an us vs. her thing. I’m sure there are Janes/Johns out there that could overcome those issues by virtue of personality and ability. I’d just be wary of another situation like that personally.

    4. Sparrow*

      This is not something that would bother me. My current manager is remote so I have no idea if he is at home or work. My previous manager worked from home every now and then and provided his cell phone and was readily available on email and IM. Also, he didn’t have an office so I know he worked from home for privacy reasons when he had to take sensitive management-related calls. We have a limited number of conference rooms, so it wasn’t feasible for him to book a room for an entire day.

    5. Student*

      I have manager who works from home 50% of the time. I find this frustrating because, on the rare occasions that I need him, it’s an emergency issue. When I have an emergency, I need him to use his authority to get things done in a very timely fashion. Since he’s working from home, I have no guarantee that I can reach him at all. I have to rely on him to both open and read the email detailing the emergency, or to take my emergency phone call.

      If he’s in the office, I have a guarantee that I can reach him quickly. Even if I need to drag him out of meetings to do so, it won’t take me more than X amount of time to find him and get him appraised of what’s happened. If he’s at home and I don’t get a quick response via phone nor email, then I have no further recourse with him. I have to decide whether (and how long) to sit on the emergency and keep trying to reach him, or to go above his head (both bad options, sometimes very bad options). I have had to do both on many occasions, and it causes a lot of his work to fall on my shoulders in a way that I don’t feel is appropriate.

      He deals with a lot of people that are much more important than me on a regular basis, so it’s reasonable for him to ignore or delay a response to me under most circumstances. However, the work I do is capable of causing the kind of emergency where he needs to know Right Now (and has in the past). That’s why managers working from home make me uneasy.

    6. Alex*

      Personally, no I wouldn’t be bothered unless there was some expectation to only plan meetings with her live, or if the culture is one that doesn’t include a lot of electronic/virtual communication. My entire team, including my manager and her manager and the next level up, are all remote. We’re so used to it though, and we’re good at using Outlook calendar tools and Web meetings, that it is totally normal for us.

      My previous manager worked in the office a few days a week out at home the other days, but was hard to reach at home. Naturally, we all just assumed he was slacking off..

  109. Amber Rose*

    OK, my head hurts.

    We have to submit some invoices electronically. But when my predecessor left, I guess nobody wanted to bother? Anyways I just got access and now there’s all these invoices from months and months ago that were just never submitted (our accountant was supposed to be handling it). And I need signatures from them to submit! Ugh.

    What a mess.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Okay remember last week when you were all upset about the ONE thing you neglected to do and I told you, shit happens, don’t stress, just go to your boss and get it over with?

      Remember that?

      See, now you get to be the hero cleaning up somebody else’s mess.

      Shit happens. And, bright side, you’re cleaning up a wayyyyyyyy bigger mess than the one you made. :-)

      (oh wait, is that a good thing?)

      1. Amber Rose*

        Ha, yeah. This is taking me all day to sort out compared to one phone call. We create a new file for each location and some clients have up to 10 files and it’s not clear what coding goes with what invoice. I hadn’t even heard of invoice coding until a few weeks ago.

        Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          I love my A/R person with all of the love in the universe. It is such a skill set and it’s magic when you get the right person in that job.

          She has been trying to get $7000 paid from a federal facility for two years now, I kid you not. We have a purchase order! I was talking to her about it today. I offered to write it off. She says, I will not give up. (There’s some automated system and they keep rejecting her invoices and she keeps plugging away. Human beings won’t help her. ) Apparently her last invoice submission end of Feb wasn’t rejected so she thinks magic might be about to happen in the form of cash money in our hands.

          1. De Minimis*

            As a fed, I’m not surprised.
            The big issue with federal facilities is everything is decentralized to the point of insanity, and it takes an army of people in different locations just to pay a bill. I bet someone messed up when it came to recording a receipt or something else like that.

            With a PO it’s even worse, that’s where things always get hung up. Everyone has a bunch of these that are hanging out there for years, and it usually takes external auditors getting on everyone’s case at headquarters before people will do anything about it. And then half the time there’s disagreement and lack of knowledge on how to fix it.

            1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

              We do a fair amount of federal business on purchasing cards, and that’s great business. Nice people, easy payment. I actually love federal business, especially military. The are so happy we ship to APO efficiently.

              You can keep your PO business tho, thank you very much. :-)

              1. De Minimis*

                Of course, on my end I hate the PCards because they’re a lot harder for me to track. The departments here like to order a lot of stuff at once all with the same vendor and none of it ever comes in at the same time so it’s nigh impossible to figure out what dollar amount is for what order…..

                The Pcards were designed for smaller purchases where it would seem like overkill to do a PO [like doing a PO just to buy $50 worth of copy paper…which I have seen before!] A lot of the time we have our hands slapped for misuse, though…nothing illegal but for example we’re not supposed to use them to buy equipment [in our case, stuff like computers or even printers.]

                1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

                  Ha. They go to $2499.99 I believe.

                  I’d say most purchases we have are in the $2000 range.

                  And no one would EVER, EVER, EVER split a larger bill over multiple days to use a Pcard. that would not happen!

                  :)

                2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

                  p.s. our federal business is mostly military, and often overseas bases. We support health and wellness programs, military hospitals, some things related to morale, usually event related and time sensitive. In most cases, we’re more proficient at getting product to them then they are at receiving it.

                  The purchasing system works for large orders. I don’t want that kind of business (federal bid, shudder!, been there, won’t again), but it makes sense. Can’t argue with getting under $2500 orders in the field quickly, though.

          2. Amber Rose*

            I’ve been trying to get $40k out of a gas company for 2 months. They just want more and more meaningless numbers. I never wanted to be A/R but I figure once I hit safety coordinator level in 2 years I can petition for someone else to take over.

          3. A Definite Beta Guy*

            You’re having A/R problems, I feel bad for you son, I’ve got 99 problems, but online adjudication ain’t one.
            One of the nice things about working in Retail Pharmacy. It’s a well-oiled machine. 98% of our invoices are submitted electronically at point of sale, paid electronically, and correctly applied to an invoice in 35-40 days, without any human intervention at all.
            I definitely feel bad for you poor little worker-bee! She’s got a great attitude for A/R: don’t give up, keep plugging along! Right now we’re trying to collect on some claims from 2010. We’ve been working with the company since 2012, but they’ve gone radio silent for months at time.
            Finally I told our Contracting team to put some stuff on hold…..
            Their CEO became very irritated, pulled one of our Senior Execs aside at a major conference, and started complaining about me.
            Don’t annoy the A/R folk, we’ve got more pull than you think!

          4. Natalie*

            Are you dealing with the US General Services Administration? I’m fairly sure they are run by a deep-cover anti government libertarian who needed an insanely cartoonish government agency to exist for political purposes.

            1. Natalie*

              I should also mention that one of the hardest things to do with the GSA is to give them money back. One tenant paid us for the same month twice last AUGUST and I’ve been trying to get their ok to send the extra money back since then. I anticipate I will be trying to refund this money until five years after I’m dead. (You can’t send them a check , the will explode with confusion.)

            2. A Definite Beta Guy*

              Yep, agreed. As much as I hate my job, I hate your job worse, if it involves giving money back to the government. Like De M said above, the gov’t is very decentralized and it takes a lot of effort to process anything. Also, departments normally set up for paying invoices, often do not know enough about how to RECEIVE money. Not their job function.

              I regularly get all sorts of crap from our A/P team. Normally I wouldn’t care, but I don’t have time to research every little thing. If someone says “I’ll cut you a check,” my initial thought would be, “great more work to do.”

  110. TinyPjM*

    Hello! I’d greatly appreciate your advice here…

    I’m in my late twenties, and am going back to school to finish my BS. I have a good amount of work experience, and am a supervisor. I am now contemplating how to deal with this degree on my resume. Should I put it on my resume and say “expected (year)”, or should I just leave it off until I get the degree? Once I DO get the degree…should I put the year I graduated, or leave it off? I don’t want it to seem like I worked part time while getting my degree, as I will be taking classes at night. This was all kind of a mish mash of words, but any help would be much appreciated!

    1. Supervisor with Headache*

      It’s okay to give an anticipated graduation date. How you deal with it afterward kind of depends on your work record before it.

    2. Traveler*

      Once you get to within a year of your degree date, I think its fine to put Expected (date). Years out it might seem a little strange, but when you’re close it’s important information that a hiring manager would probably want to know. Put the year you graduated after because thats the norm. You can explain in a cover letter or interview that you worked full time if it’s something you’re worried about. I worked full time during school, and no one ever assumed otherwise.

    3. afiendishthingy*

      I would put education: ABC university, XY Major, Expected BS (year). I don’t think any employer will judge you for getting the degree while working. The only thing I’ve heard about putting the year on your resume is that if you leave it off people will think you’re old and trying to hide it. If you have the year along with your experience it should be clear you are not just starting out in the work world. I think you’ll be in a good position. Good luck!

    4. Treena Kravm*

      I would do this before you get the degree:
      BS in Teapot Sculpture, Teapot University, Expected May 2016

      and this afterwards:
      BS in Teapot Sculpture, Teapot University

      The date of your degree doesn’t matter if you have a track record of working (in the field your major is in and the field you’ll be applying to jobs in, right?). The date of the degree becomes a bigger data point when there’s no other track record to go by, so leaving it off allows employers to focus on your experiences and skills, and it leaves the BS as a sort-of required blip that they can now see you have. (I’m assuming that’s why you’re going back to school, to just say you have a degree).

      1. TinyPjM*

        Yeah, that’s exactly it. I work as a Project Manager and am majoring in Business with an emphasis on project management.

        The only way people would know that I do not have a degree is to ask where I went to school…to which I usually very gracefully stammer out “UHHH,” and I’d like to be able to say “Oh yeah, I did that!”. Not all of us knew what we wanted to do when we were 18!

        Thanks everyone for the advice :)

  111. afiendishthingy*

    I’m trying to become more assertive and less of a people pleaser with the parents of clients (I work in human services supervising home-based behavioral treatment for kids with disabilities). I’ve read Alison’s great post on being an awesome badass, which carries over some to working with these parents, but the power dynamics are really complicated here – I’m a middle class young-looking childless white woman in their homes telling low-income, often Latino parents how to parent – but on the other hand these are voluntary services and they’ve asked for help from a professional which is me. (And this is my first professional job rather than paraprofessional so my confidence is not super high yet.) Also there are things like following agency policies that are not negotiable. But I still have a hard time being firm-but-compassionate-and-not-patronizing when it comes to telling people something that they don’t want to hear, which is a big part of the job. I know some of it will just come with time, and I try to model a few coworkers who are great at this the best I can. Can anyone weigh in as to how long it took you to get the awesome badass thing down, whether with human services clients, other kinds of clients, or just in general? Any advice for getting there sooner?

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Are you me? I feel like this a lot- still fairly new to the workforce and I’m still in a paraprofessional role, but I could definitely stick to my guns more. The thing that I’ve tried to stick to with myself is that when I’m explaining difficult things to people, they are coming at it from an entirely different place than I am because they’re emotionally involved. Since I’m coming from a place of logic, and usually trying to explain rules (I work in a hospital in a role that often requires wrangling family members who are not following rules), I have the space to see what they’re not seeing- usually that something is broken and they don’t have the information to fix it.

      In your position, you know more about the technical parts of this than parents do, despite not having children yourself, or not knowing a particular child since their birth. It’s not about whether the parents you’re serving think you’re talking down to them; you’re just trying to provide them with the best possible version of the service that, like you said, they elected to receive. You just have to find a way to hold onto that when it feels hard to stand your ground. Modeling coworkers of yours is definitely a good place to start; maybe ask some of them how they got used to being firm in this role? Good luck!

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        I did something assertive! I had an overdue, very direct, uncomfortable conversation with a parent which started with “this is not a negotiation, our agency can no longer provide services” due to repeated violations of policies (we’d had meetings to address this in the past, she’s signed contracts saying she wouldn’t, etc). Tbh I was motivated in large part by my craving for the approval of my counterpart from a partner agency, who is one of those super assertive but not mean people I admire. She was clearly all done with the situation and wanted me to man up so I did (also I wanted to stop dragging the dang thing out!) so it’s a crappy situation for the kid, and the mom was angry, but I know that we did our absolute best over many months to help them. And making myself say “we needed x, you said you would do x and didn’t, so we are following through with the consequences we had previously explained” without apologizing or waffling or trying to refute her many excuses felt awesome.

  112. Supervisor with Headache*

    Have any of you ever supervised someone with bipolar disorder who wasn’t medicated? What happened? How did you cope? How did you manage the person? How did others in the workplace react to the moods?

    1. fposte*

      I’m curious–is this somebody whose disorder isn’t responding to medication, or are they choosing not to or can’t afford to medicate? And are the moods something you can reasonably accommodate? It sounds like they might have a pretty big impact.

    2. Catherine in Canada*

      I haven’t supervised unmedicated bipolar disorder, but I’ve parented pre-diagnosis bipolar. It’s not easy.

      And it’s not fair to expect siblings (or co-workers) to “just deal with it”.

  113. Anxious Anon*

    I’ve seen folks post here before about dealing with therapy etc. outside of work and I’d appreciate any advice about approaching my manager about starting this sort of thing.

    Basically, I’m pretty sure I’ve had anxiety for most of my life, but it’s mostly been manageable. My stress level this year has been unusually high due to a combination of medical stuff/short-staffing at work/wedding/family drama, and that has started to make my anxiety unmanageable. Friends who work in mental health think that I now have a serious problem and need to seek help and I tend to agree. The problem is there aren’t many doctors in my area with hours outside of M-F 9-4, so I would have to take off work with some regularity.

    I know I’m not obligated to disclose why, but I have a good manager and I know she will be concerned about what it s wrong. However, I am nervous that disclosing this problem could reflect poorly on me, because (1) I have just received a promotion and don’t want anyone to think I can’t handle it (the added stress is not the promotion but the staffing situation that led to the promotion); (2) I have already had to miss a lot of time this year to address other medical problems, extended jury service and (soon) my wedding; and and (3) our department head has a daughter my age who has severe anxiety to the point where she cannot take care of herself, so I am concerned that the head would be negatively influenced by her experience. However, I also recognize that my anxiety is probably detrimental to my focus at work and is certainly seriously detrimental to my personal life.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for the best way to approach this with my boss? Should I be honest? How honest should I be? Is there a particular way I should time it? Is it better to wait until I’ve been in my promoted position for a little while? Realistically, I could not start therapy until late summer, but I am in academia so once August hits there will be only brief slow periods until next May. I anticipate that this is probably not going to be a short-term problem. For now, I am doing really well (aced my review last week), so I have some capital built up at work, but I don’t know how much that will help me.

    1. Kate P.*

      Most good managers would be happy to know that you’re doing what you can to stay healthy and safe. You’ve obviously impressed her – after all, you just got promoted. If you’re comfortable, be honest. Maybe be proactive too – “I know this is a lot of time out of the office lately, so I’m doing X to make sure that everything gets taken care of.”

    2. Colette*

      I vote for being honest but vague. This could be “I need an hour every week for a medical appointment” or “my doctor has recommended I work with a therapist, so I’ll need to leave early on Tuesdays” or “I’m having issues with anxiety and am working with a therapist to learn how to handle them more effectively”.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Just don’t volunteer the info you don’t want to. I literally just had this conversation with my boss last Friday:

      “Hey, I’m going to need to see a doctor pretty regularly for a while. Unfortunately doctors work the same hours we do, so I need to be away x time on y days. Can we make that work?”

      And that was it. My boss was like, as long as work gets done it’s fine, we like you. Most normal decent people get how inconvenient doctors appointments are.

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        Yes, almost definitely no need to say what the appointment is. Also if need be would your work lend itself to you flexing your hours at times?

        Good luck! Anxiety is tough as hell to manage, but with the help of the right therapist and maybe a psychiatrist, if you decide to try the meds route (or a therapist who’s a nurse practitioner like mine!), you can definitely reduce it. It’s definitely one of those things that waxes and wanes but doesn’t go away and it SUCKS. But it can become less sucky! Worst pep talk ever??

          1. Anxious Anon*

            Not worst ever at all! Realistic pep talks are good. I know this isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, so the pep talks I occasionally get (mostly from family) that act like this is a phase that will pass tend to be more frustrating.

            I can flex my hours to a certain extent, but the biggest part of my job is being present to help faculty and students, so in-office time is crucial. I worry less about making up the time than about the optics of it. I put a lot of hours into my work, but of course most often the faculty or students who contact me with a critical need do not see the long hours I put in but only the fact that I was not available when they needed me. While these expectations are not always reasonable (students should not e-mail me 12 hours before their paper deadline expecting to meet), they do feed my anxiety a great deal.

    4. BRR*

      First, I would start as soon as possible. It’s ok to start now even if you’ve taken time off/will be taking more time off in the near future. Maybe start by getting one appointment and see what their assessment is. Then go to your boss and say you have an appointment, what will be the least disruptive way of handling it? This is considered a reasonable accommodation under ADA unless your job absolutely requires you to be there during certain hours (this would be very rare).

      You are the one who needs to make the decision as to whether you have therapy or a reoccurring doctors appointment for a medical condition. Maybe you have a coworker who knows your boss and you can ask them?

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        Yes- PLEASE start as soon as possible! It’s not a quick process and you may not find the right therapist for you on the first try. I know you’re worried about taking time off, but being there with unchecked anxiety is worse than being gone an hour or so every week or so but managing your anxiety.

        Also if possible, at least at first I would try to schedule therapy sessions for the end of the day- I’m pretty fried after an intense session.

        1. Anxious Anon*

          Thanks, both of you, for the suggestions. I didn’t realize something like this could be accommodated under the ADA. Would it count if I don’t have an official diagnosis at this time? BRR, because of the staffing changes we’ve had and the way that has impacted my work, I’d say I probably know my boss better than any coworker I could ask! We have a very good working relationship, which makes it harder to know whether to conceal the truth. I know many people in my personal life who consider my anxiety to be immaturity/of my own making, so I worry that this could damage our good relationship if it reflects poorly on my maturity or professionalism.

          I can definitely appreciate it is not a quick process. I have tried to seek treatment once before and it was a short-lived disaster due to poor choice of doctor, so I know it can take time. I believe I will be required to make a separate appointment with my PCP to be referred so that I can even make that first therapy appointment, unless I try to go through my EAP. I attempted to raise the issue with my PCP last fall but the nurse did not take me seriously and it didn’t go anywhere, so I may need to convince her. I’m not clear if something like this that seems to be a long-term issue is appropriate for an EAP?

          Afiendishthingy, I didn’t even think about the timing of the appointments. That is an excellent suggestion; thank you! Showing up to work emotionally distraught would probably not help here.

          1. BRR*

            I’m not sure if you’re notified of replies but I hope you see this, I just remembered about this today so my apologies for not replying sooner.

            I’m not sure if you need a formal diagnosis for ADA. Through my own situation, I read that psychiatric issues need to affect your life outside work. I also have a good working relationship with my boss and when I tried to delve further into my “medical issue” she put up a wall as a CYA move (and I don’t blame her). There’s always the stigma you face with this both about your abilities and if it’s a serious issue (shame on the nurse for dismissing it, you should follow up about that because it’s pretty serious she blew it off).

            So here’s what I would do in your situation (I’m not a doctor or lawyer and at this point not even a good employee). Contact your EAP, see what they say. If your health plan requires you go to your PCP first, go and get a referral (check your health plan first because the less people you have to go through the easier). Check your area for therapists/psychiatrists. Many keep different hours, more so than other specialties. I would recommend a therapist first if you have not received treatment before. BUT, if you don’t see improvement bring it up with them. You don’t want to be impatient but you can’t go to therapy for a year and not see any improvement. If you need time off, I would tell your boss you have a reoccurring medical appointment and how can you make this work. You don’t need to bring up the ADA or anything. If your boss says no, then write back in because under the ADA time for appointments count unless being there certain hours is a critical component of your job (objectively critical, not what your boss thinks is critical).

    5. AnnaW*

      I am in the UK and my anxiety is so much better since I’ve started to meditate regularly. As back-up I attended an 8 week mindfulness therapy group and it was based upon a cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) course developed in Oxford. There is a book that has a CD of meditations and there is more on You Tube. Jon Kabitt Zinn – started this in the U.S.
      Many of the people in my group had anxiety. Being mindful is a habit – the benefit comes over time and for me it helps me to recognise the reaction that my body and mind have to situations and helps me to shift my thinking enough to limit my anxiety and be kinder to myself and others.

      Here is the website link for the Oxford book – I’ve split it in case links aren’t allowed
      http: //franticworld.com/free-meditations-from-mindfulness/
      Good luck – you have a lot going on in your life at the moment and taking a little time for yourself every day may be as good as therapy.

  114. Supervisor with Headache*

    First, consult a doctor on medical intervention. If all you need is a prescription, the rest may be moot.

    1. Afiendishthingy*

      Is this in response to anxious anon above? If so I have to disagree. Meds have definitely played a huge role in treating my anxiety but especially if you’ve never been treated before you should really talk to a therapist to identify problematic thought patterns and strategies to address them, etc.

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        YES TO THIS. Meds can be very useful in getting paralysing symptoms under control, but actually learning how to manage the anxiety itself is crucial.

  115. Jen RO*

    Background: I’m a new manager of ~8 months. I was completely against the idea before I got promoted (I wasn’t offered a promotion, I was told “you’re now the team lead”), but so far it’s not as bad as I thought. Many years of reading AAM have helped, but now my boss wants me to tell him what kind of training sessions I think are needed for me and for the teams. I handle one team formally and another one informally. The first one has 5 people, all fairly new to the working world (<3 years). The second team is led by someone who is on leave until next year, and also has 5 people, who are more experienced than mine (5-10 years).

    I have no clue whatsoever about trainings in a corporate environment, I've never been to one and I've never heard of people going to them… I'm going to talk to HR, but I want to have a clue before that. I'm thinking of asking for project management trainings for myself and for a few others, and maybe some people management trainings for myself… but what else is out there? I think that we will only have access to "generic" trainings, nothing related to the actual jobs we do.

    1. Jamie*

      For years I’ve known you didn’t want anything to do with being a manager! Welcome to the trenches. :)

      1. Jen RO*

        Thanks! For someone who doesn’t really like talking to people, it’s not SO bad… but I still whine from time to time that I didn’t get better reports! (The other team lead did the interviewing, while I was away checking out greener pastures; now she is on maternity leave, but I still get to chat with her on IM and ask “whyyyy did you hire these guys for me?” and “God please let January come faster, I can’t wait for you to come back so I can stop taking care of your team as well!”) [Ok, my guys are not *that* bad, but you can really tell that some of them are new to the working world… And the other lead’s team sometimes acts like a bunch of kindergartners. But at least it’s a public holiday here and I get to relax for a bit!]

  116. super anon*

    my question is more for people who own their own businesses and work for themselves – please help!

    my boyfriend is a realtor and works *a lot*. due to the nature of his job it seems like he is always on call – he will have clients and other realtors calling him sometimes as late as 11 pm & midnight. he’s been doing this for 2 years and it seems like he just gets busier and busier. he hasn’t had a vacation in over 2 years, and he never takes time off. he will take a day off once every month or so, but even on those days he is still answering phone calls and doing mls searches and planning showings and all the paperwork a realtor has to do. if he gets an offer he is out the door to get it signed and dealt with, once he even had to go out at 1 am to work with a client who was leaving for hong kong at 5 am the next morning. we went on a 3 day vacation to the states last year, and even then he spent the entire time on the phone with an extremely difficult client who would call him multiple times a day and yell at him for going on vacation when he should be selling her property (which happens more often than you would think). he’s often working 10 to 12 hour days every day of the week, and has been going stretches of a month or more without having anytime off at all to disengage and relax.

    i know that he feels pressure to provide and support for us because i’m not working right now (not by choice, but because i’m bad at getting my first job after graduation ugh), and i know it’s got him into high gear with working, but i’m really worried about him burning out and no longer being able to work effectively. he talks about being tired all the time, feeling unmotivated and feeling a general malaise and unhappiness with life. how can i stress to him the importance of taking time off and away from work? he keeps asking me the best way to relax and take time off, so i know he wants to, but he’s struggling with it, in part b/c he says he feels guilty if he isn’t working 100% of the time, like he’s being lazy and that he’ll miss a great deal if he’s not on-call 24/7 365. i can see that he’s becoming burnt out and i’d like to help him head it off.

    tl;dr: how do you convince yourself that it’s ok to take time off and recharge when you own your own business and work for yourself?

    1. Chickaletta*

      He needs to set boundaries with his clients. On his website and business cards he should put his office hours, and then he needs to stick to them by turning off his phone at the end of the day. Although real estate sales requires weekends and evenings, there is no reason why he should be working at 24/7. Maybe he needs to re-evaluate the types of clients he takes if they need something done at 1am before they fly to Hong Kong.

      The bottom line is that if you act like you’re at the end of someone’s leash, they’re going to pull you around. He needs to change that. Set expectations up front. If he wants to go on vacation, plan it 3-6 months ahead, and the let clients know that business will NOT be conducted from x to x dates because he will be on vacation. Then if they chose to hire them they know that business won’t be done during that period. Then leave the phone and email behind. Nobody will die and the world will keep spinning. The only people who will get upset are the jerks who don’t respect your time.

      1. super anon*

        i think a lot the problem comes from cultural differences. he services a lot of Chinese and foreign buyers, and their expectations are a lot different than the local clientele are. he’s getting better at managing expectations, but he’s a third culture kid, and he still finds it difficult to navigate the different norms successfully. For example: Chinese buyers expect you to be on call 24/7 but they’ll always ask you for a rebate from your commission (oftentimes as high as 50 to 60%), something i’d never, ever heard of people doing and can never imagine a western buyer doing.

        it’s easy to say don’t take clients who will need documents signed at 1 am (and i see where you’re coming from on that it’s pretty insane), but sometimes deals just work out that way due to overseas buyers and sellers- and when a 3 million dollar property is on the line, it’s hard to say “sorry, i can’t go get that paperwork signed for you”, especially when that commission is your living expenses for 4 months and your partner currently isn’t working.

        (for vacations and days off: he has assistants who can take over his email, phone calls and showings, he’s just having a really hard time disengaging because he feels like he has to work 24/7 – and i’m trying to figure out how to help him get out of that mindset)

        1. Linda*

          I think the best thing you could do is encourage him to find a mentor in his field. One of my aunts is a lawyer, and she works 12+ hour days but still manages to take a week off at least twice a year and mostly disengage. The key is setting expectations with your clients in advance, having staff who can handle the basic stuff and know to call you for emergencies, and maintaining friendly relationships with lawyers who can step in if absolutely needed.

          If he could see how other professionals in his field (especially those who deal with the clientele he deals with) manage their days off, it could give him some reassurance. Has he never had a deal where the realtor on the other side was on vacation? Or contacted someone and had their assitant get back to him because they were out? And when he interacts with other people, is he holding himself to a higher standard than they are? Is he responding to emails within 2 hours when everyone else responds within 24? I think part of the issue is that he’s stuck in the ‘prove yourself’ phase when he’s afraid to set boundaries with clients because they might just go somewhere else. But after 2 years of experience, I think he has enough credibility to push back a little — he just needs to see how everyone else is doing it and learn from them.

    2. some1*

      What does, “I’m bad at getting my first job” mean? Are you not having luck in your job search? Are you bad at looking for a job?

      1. super anon*

        the first one. this is the longest i’ve ever gone without working or going to school and i feel like i’m losing my mind from boredom. it’s only been ~4 months that i’ve been searching, but the longest i’ve ever had to search for a job before was 1 month, so i’m feeling kind of let down in my searching abilities this go round.

    3. Jamie*

      I thought that was how it worked with realtors? I’ve never known one that wasn’t always on – I was under the impression they didn’t work 10-12 hour days in the office typically, though. That the they worked super intensely for showings and when landing a deal but it was offset by it being lighter a lot of the time.

      I would imagine most people don’t call their realtor at 3:00 am, but since others will offer constant availability I’d imagine it would hurt his business to limit himself to business hours. If someone is selling a house and a buyer can only look at it off hours or on short notice…the agent needs to either be available or make sure someone else is. And few people want to split a commission.

      Maybe I’m way off base, but I don’t know if you can be successful in that line of work if you have hard boundaries on personal time.

      1. super anon*

        that’s true, i should have been specific and said that he has assistants who can field calls and do showings for him on the day he wants to take off, so it’s not like he would be completely cut off from his clients and other realtors.

        i’m more trying to see if there’s anyone who work in these kinds of situations and how they deal with learning how it’s ok to disengage once in a while, because he works really hard and i’m just really worried he’s going to burn himself out if he doesn’t start taking advantage of his assistants and having time away (even if it’s just one day every 2 weeks).

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I do think it is the nature of the beast in real estate.

        Successful straight commission salespeople (which is what real estate agents are) are animals about work. I’ve never gotten out of the habit. (I spent years in straight commission sales.)

        THAT said, you can set some boundaries for yourself if you agree to. It’s not going to be Saturday and Sunday in real estate but I’ll bet if he picks one day a week and commits to it, he can make a day off happen. Monday?

        But he has to want this.

        1. AVP*

          I agree – my dad owns his own business and has to be super on top of it all of the time, but in summers he takes one afternoon off per week to do what he wants to do (always the same day. Wednesdays, IIRC.) All of his clients know, and he has a great person who works at the business who can field things in his absence. It took a long time to build up that trust and train that person, though. (Spoiler alert, it’s my brother. Ah, family businesses.)

          He does go on vacation for a few weeks per year, and schedules them around what he knows will be lighter times. I imagine that once your bf has been doing real estate for a few years he’ll get the hang of which weeks he can expect less deals to happen? When on vacation, my dad checks his iPad once in the morning and once at night (depending on time differences), spends half an hour delegating and responding to things, and then logs out.

          But you really have to have that person who you trust implicitly to handle things for you and make decisions. That person can get you involved on your day off if something is an absolute Level 10 Emergency, but that should be a once-a-year event (if even that often). This can take a long time to develop, and it sounds like maybe he doesn’t have that person in his work life yet?

          Other than explicit “I am off today” days, though, it sounds like that’s the nature of the job.

      3. The IT Manager*

        While I kind of agree, my realtor was on a cruise on the day my house went on the market. He had a colleague handle it. Your BF needs to decide to take time off and let his employees handle things on those days.

        He also needs to set boundaries including no calls / not taking calls after 9pm for example. The 1am thing is just insane. He sounds like he being over accomidating and letting clients take advantage of him frankly such as giving his clients a kickback. Chinese norms shouldn’t matter if you not living in China.

    4. Shell*

      Yeah, I think this is just how the housing industry works. I have a friend who started his own business in renovations and building, and in the 2.5 or so hours we were out for lunch last time, he took like 7 calls. And also asked his girlfriend to look up something for him regarding…tiles? cabinets?…since his phone’s internet was being slow. His girlfriend (whom I’m also friends with, and who was also at the lunch) said that he’s often at sites until like midnight and answering calls up until that point. And the guy’s just starting out.

      It might let up a little once he gets more experienced, because then he’d have the clout to draw harder lines…or it might not get better. But it sounds on par for the course for the industry.

  117. HeyNonnyNonny*

    A PSA: In these very politically charged times, please remember that whether you are the elderly Christian who believes that earthquakes are God’s judgment for gay marriage, or the radical youth who believes that rioting and violence is the only way to improve society, you should probably not discuss your political views with your coworkers…especially when your poor coworker keeps gently disagreeing with you and trying to deflect from the topic.

  118. Chickaletta*

    Is it ok to let a company know that I’d like to work for them sometime in the future? There’s a small company in my city that I would really love to work for. I applied there 2 years ago and made it to the second interview, but they didn’t offer me the job because I needed more experience coding (it’s a company that builds Salesforce apps for clients). In fact, they encouraged me to re-apply when I had more programming experience because they thought I was a great fit for their culture and I thought so too. I was/am a graphic designer and I decided to pursue another path by freelancing part-time instead so that I could stay home with my toddler. Well, recently my husband had to quit his job for health reasons. We’ve decided that I should return to full-time employment for the benefits and steady income, and thus I’m really interested in re-applying at this company. The income would be better than anything I can get as a graphic designer. I have started taking online tutorials to learn programming languages and I’m reaching out to my contacts to look for opportunities to apply what I learn in the real world.

    So, is it wise to reach out to someone at this company to let them know I’m working on learning the skills I need so that, hopefully, I’ll be ready for them to hire in a few months? I was thinking of just sending a casual email or message on LinkedIn that would remind them I interviewed there before, that I’d like to be considered for future openings, here’s what I’m doing to update my skills, and what else can I do to make myself hirable. Or would it just come across as unprofessional or desperate or wasting their time? (Secretly, in my dreamworld, they would say “hey! great to hear from you! We have a current opening and we’d like to hire you part-time/for a smaller salary/as an intern/or, hell, for the whole kit-n-caboodle, as you get up to speed”. Ha ha, don’t laugh, we all dream of this.)

    1. BRR*

      Am I understanding the last communication with them was 2 years ago? I would just apply the normal route. It would seem weird. Also, will tutorials be enough experience?

      1. Bekx*

        I’m thinking along the same lines as BRR. I’d say apply when you have the skills, reaching out now when you don’t have concrete skills would be a bit odd.

        Depending on what programming languages they want, I’m not sure if tutorials would be enough. Even something like HTML and CSS (which I’m fluent in), it’s still something where you want to have websites built and actual projects to show for it. Programming languages that are more advanced – ASP, PHP…even things like Java and C++ you should have programs and examples written.

    2. fposte*

      I wouldn’t reach out in advance of having the skills, certainly, or ask them what to do to make yourself hireable.

      But I think that if you have the skills and they don’t have an opening, it’s okay to drop a note to the hiring manager to say “Hey, I did develop those programming skills you suggested, and I’d still really love to work for your organization. I’m keeping an eye open for postings, but if you have any other information about possible openings I’d be interested in hearing it.”

      If they have an opening, however, I’d just apply.

  119. Pineapple Incident*

    A friend of mine told me about something that is happening in her current job search, and the only thing I could think was that it sounded just as weird as stories I have read on this blog, so obviously I had to post. My friend, who we’ll call Rachel, is searching for a job when she doesn’t super need to get out of her current situation- she works in a liaison capacity for admissions to a skilled nursing facility, and for the most part likes her job. She’s put out some feelers because she has a new director who wants to do things a certain way; that person’s actions have put a big contract in jeopardy and ticked off a couple of outside people Rachel collaborates with frequently, all in less than a month.

    SO, during her job search, Rachel gets an interview through her network for a position that would be a decent bump up for her at another facility a ways away. During the process, the corporate interviewer tells her that the person who is vacating the position was an internal promotion to the spot and it’s not working out. They HAVE NOT informed this lady yet that she’s going to be demoted back to her old position, and so whoever moves into the role managing her is going to have it rough. Rachel says the interviewer told her “she needs to be retrained at the role she’s going back to, so you can either retrain her or get rid of her.” They are interested in Rachel- gave her a verbal offer, she countered and said it would have to be higher to tempt her out of her current position, and they agreed. She is flabbergasted anyone would be this horribly candid, and so am I.

    TL;DR My friend Rachel is job-searching and interviewed with someone at an organization that sounds super broken and does not train their people in the first place. Rachel is obviously not impressed and is basically running for the hills. I figured this as a classic case of “what the actual eff?” as ever for this site.

    1. some1*

      I think your last paragraph is the issue – Rachel is used to toxic places that set people up to fail. But she doesn’t know enough to say that’s what is happening here. I would ask them more about the background of the woman vacating the position. What kind of training did she get? How many warnings were involved? Did she get the necessary resources, etc?

    2. BRR*

      It does partially cross the line because it’s not a candidate’s business that an employee is going to be demoted but I would appreciate the honesty. They’re also letting the person who will be in this position make decisions about their team which is nice. I’d probably be more mad if I took a job and then found out one of my subordinates has been in the position and was demoted.

    3. fposte*

      Umm. On the bright side, clearly Rachel wouldn’t be interfered with much by management, because there isn’t any.

      I think demoting somebody can be a reasonable thing to do, but the notion that spine is so lacking in this organization that they have to go outside to find somebody to do any managing is pretty wild.

    4. TheExchequer*

      Not going to lie, this sounds like a cluster fudge *waiting* to happen.

      1. You have an employee “about to be” demoted without knowing it raises concerns about their communication skills
      2. Telling an outsider that *before* telling the employee that? And in a “Well, just get rid of her” fashion? I would be very concerned that I would be treated with the same callous disregard, not to mention the potential breach of confidentiality
      3. The lack of training but still holding people accountable

      Personally, I would run screaming in the opposite direction.

  120. Snafu Warrior*

    Last week I spent a long time training certain team members on very specific legalish paperwork that they need to fill out and provide to my department, and yesterday I found out that they pawned off all that work to untrained temps. I let the team director know that I didn’t think this was a good idea, and she just said to be on call in case the temps need help. The temps are in the New York office, and I’m not. This team has been the source of so many issues in the past that I’m about ready to fly up there and cover their desks in saran wrap or something.

  121. S. Ninja*

    I had another interview today, and I have yet another one coming up on Monday morning. These things must be like buses- I’ve been waiting a year to get *one* and now I’ve had three in a row. Wish me luck, I guess!

  122. WTF*

    A friend received an email from her supervisor, asking her to volunteer to chair a committee at a conference in October. (My friend doesn’t want to because she’s expecting a baby in July, and she doesn’t think she’ll have enough time to adequately prepare for the conference when she returns from maternity leave.” The e-mail ended with this line: “Please let me know if you accept. Non-acceptance is not an option.”

    Um…. wtf?

    I told her she should reply, decline the position, and end it with, “Please let me know if you accept my decision. Non-acceptance is not an option.”

    1. some1*

      There’s nothing worse than being asked to do something you clearly aren’t allowed to say no too. Barf.

    2. Sarah Nicole*

      What?! That’s crazy. Will she be on Maternity leave during this time? If so, I thought they can’t ask her to work during that time. If not, though, seems like she would have to do it if her supervisor is making it a requirement of her job. But that’s still pretty rude. If I were her, I’d ask for an in-person meeting to discuss this one. It sounds way too weird – maybe the supervisor was joking?

      1. WTF*

        The conference is in October, so she’ll be back at work by then, but she probably won’t return to work until mid-to-late September (depending on when baby arrives), which would give her very little time to prepare.

      2. afiendishthingy*

        Those last lines SOUND like a joke to me, although maybe in an oh-haha-but-seriously-not-an-option way. oof, hope she can get out of it.

    4. Camellia*

      Yeah, we call this “volun-told”.

      I hope your friend has a chat with her supervisor to see if it really is non-optional. If she thinks she may not have enough time to prepare after she returns to work, she should let him know. He could then perhaps make a more informed decision.

  123. Hazel*

    Thanks to everyone who gave advice last week. I started a new job as an administrator after working exclusively in retail, and the culture change has been wonderful. I have had a lovely first week, and I’m feeling really positive about my future with the company.

  124. Dulcinea*

    Question for anyone who has attended at NITA training (National Institute for Trial Advocacy) …..

    The packet says the dress code is courtroom formal to make the training feel more real. I love dressing up and am happy to do this. But if I do, will I be the only person who takes it seriously and look like a big dork? I try to tell myself I don’t need to care whether people think I am a dork but…I kind of do.

    Thanks!

    1. danr*

      My wife took the NITA course and yes, she went in full court dress. Don’t go overboard however. I helped out during the mock trial presentations as a juror. Those were very interesting, especially since we decided to deliberate with the lawyers watching. We took questions afterwards on why we deliberated the way we did. I and another adult on the mock jury had been on juries before and we knew who to listen to.

  125. Laurie*

    I have posted questions on here a few times; however, I never get an answer from the community. I figured I would try again.

    Here is my question, I recently was called out of the blue for a position that I never applied for and decided to go through the entire interview process after speaking with the Human Resources recruiter. I had 5 interviews and I thought things were going great. I have not heard from them since early last week.

    My question is why do HR recruiters seek out candidates that do not apply for a position and when they go through the process, the candidate does not receive an offer?

    I get contacted by companies due to my Linked In or recommended by someone. I have not received an offer. I feel like the company does not respect my time since they want to have a certain number of candidates in the interview pool.

    1. Colette*

      They are probably legitimately interested in what you bring to the table, but that doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed the job – they may have others they are equally interested in that end up being a better match.

    2. AVP*

      Well, first of all, a few weeks isn’t a very long time. You might hear from them in a month, or get an email in six months saying they’ve hired someone else, or…anything.

      But I think in general the point of hiring and recruiting is to cast a wide net and talk to multiple people and find the best fit. If you’re only recruiting and interviewing one person, you’re likely not doing a great job, unless you already know them and had them in mind for the role.

      It’s true that they may have had a quota, and you could have been a part of that, but many companies don’t. It’s way more likely that they were really interested in you but had multiple great candidates. It’s very rude if they never contact you again and leave you hanging, but I would wait another month or so before you tag them that way.

    3. HigherEd Admin*

      For starters, you are likely not the only candidate that HR has sought out. The might reach out to 15 candidates, hear back from 10 of them, move forward with 5 of them, and narrow it down to 3 of them and then choose one. Being recruited doesn’t guarantee you a job any more than if you applied yourself.

      1. Laurie*

        Thank you everyone for replying! Your comments are very helpful. I truly appreciate it.

    4. fposte*

      FYI, if you’ve been posting under the same name, you’re definitely getting responses; I responded to you once, for instance, and I just checked and found others. Maybe you’re not leaving enough time before checking back to see?

      1. fposte*

        Rereading this I think it may have come across poorly. I meant to assure you that you have not been overlooked; I’m sorry you feel like you have been.

  126. FiveWheels*

    Hi guys, here’s a question for you all. I’m a paralegal in a medium sized law firm. I have a fairly broad spectrum of cases, years of experience, and I’m considered a very valued employee -but have no formal legal qualifications.

    My boss has mentioned a couple of times that the firm would be happy to contribute to fees for any qualifications that would assist my skills, short of paying for me to get another degree unfortunately ;-) I’m at a loss however as to what I should be looking for.

    I hope to work for this firm for as long as they want me to stay, so I’m more interested in qualifications that would make me more useful where I am, not just more marketable to another employer.

    I plan to ask if there are any specific skills gaps I can fill, but beyond that, any ideas?

    1. danr*

      There are Paralegal Certification programs. Maybe this is what he is referring to.

    2. Laurie*

      I have worked in the legal industry for over 18 years now. I started out as a legal assistant (paralegal) then transitioned over the electronic discovery and litigation support side where I handle the databases and processing of electronic files, manage doc reviews with the case teams. That has been a very rewarding career path for me.

      To answer your question, there are many options that you can do depending on your job responsibilities. The Organization for Legal Professionals has some certification programs such as legal project management, certified paralegal management. They offer other certifications as well in eDiscovery.

    3. Shell*

      Degree typically implies the equivalent of a 4-year full-time program, but would they be willing to pay for a certificate? In my neck of the woods, paralegals usually a certificate (diploma?) program at a specific few local schools, which is the equivalent of a 2-year full-time program. The programs are intensive and well-regarded and generally paralegals wouldn’t get in the door without them. It’d be nice if your employer would pay for that, because it does teach pretty useful information about law.

      They also have similar programs for legal admin assistants, though the duration of the courses are shorter (the equivalent to 8-month program, I believe).

      Beyond that, are there specific training courses for programs that you use? I’m thinking LexisNexis, PC Law, or whatever.

    4. OneNote*

      Where I am from, Paralegals are starting to get recognized. Our law society has commenced discussions about regulating non-lawyer professionals. I have been a paralegal for over 10+ years and am so happy about this. I have a paralegal diploma and am planning to enroll in a Bachelor of Legal Studies (paralegal) program. Essentially I just take 2 more years of courses, because I have already a paralegal diploma and “up-grade that into a degree” (maybe less depending what other undergrad courses are transferable). I am happy to pay this on my own though and do not expect the firm to pay for this. Depending where you are, are there CLE courses you can take or other educational courses in your specialty? Sometimes there are lunch and learn courses as well. Also, where you are, do you have a paralegal association or the like? If so they likely post up-coming courses.

      1. FiveWheels*

        I’m fairly sure there are no relevant paralegal associations or certifications in my jurisdiction. (I’ve only ever come across one person who mentioned belonging to one – in an application form for a job that wasn’t in law. We thought it was either a scam organisation, or an outright lie.) The vast majority of paralegals are either relatively temporary, or have law degrees and are only working as paralegals in order to bolster their chances of a contact as an apprentice solicitor.

        The majority of my skills \qualities are either from experience, or from being a quick learner… Not from my formal education. I was one of those counterproductive kids smart enough to ace exams without trying, so I always did well in school but never saw it add anything more than a pastime. I find it hard to translate classroom learning into things that are actually useful. Hmmm. Management courses of some kind perhaps? I wonder if there are such things as mediation or negotiation courses available. Or if I could make a case for some kind of foreign language.

        1. FiveWheels*

          Ugh, just saw several typos that are making my son crawl. Either late night phone typing is too difficult, or I’m using the Corporette strategy of using typos to make myself more likeable.

        2. OneNote*

          If you manage subordinates, I think you can definitely make a case for managerial courses. I’m sure there are medication and negotiation courses for lawyers and support staff. You could see what courses your lawyers take to meet their yearly continuing legal ed credits (assuming they are required to complete yearly continuing education).

    5. voluptuousfire*

      Is it possible to specialize in a certain area of law as a paralegal? My best friend was a paralegal/legal secretary and ended up specializing in patents. She made pretty good money until she left her firm.

  127. GoodManager*

    Hello,

    I hope you can help me with this question. I manage a team of 10 people. Our company is currently going through very tough times and I have been asked to make recommendations for downsizing resources (note that all managers have been asked to do this, not just me). I know of a local employer who is interested in hiring a specific employee on my team but not one that is ranked at (or even near) the bottom of the list. I feel very torn. I would like to save as many people as possible from losing their jobs and one less person on my team would inevitably make a difference; however, I don’t want to lose this specific person.

    In my opinion, I would be doing a disservice to myself to let the employee know of the opportunity as I feel like he would go for it; but on the other hand, I feel like I would be doing a disservice to the employee by not letting him know of the opportunity.

    I’d love your input.

    1. AVP*

      How bad is the financial situation? Is there any chance of this person being laid off at all, or of the company going under?

      1. GoodManager*

        This person is ranked in the top 50% so I think he will make it through the reduction; no, the company is not in danger of going under. If he leaves on his own, it will inevitably save the job of someone else. I am really struggling with being selfish (and not telling him) or being humane and giving someone else a chance to stay on-board.

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      I would tell the employee, for no other reason that it’s possible that this employee might find out about this opportunity on his/her own, and how would s/he feel if s/he knew that you knew about it and didn’t pass the information along?

    3. Jen RO*

      I would tell the employee. Maybe I’m too much of a softie, but I’d rather lose a good person and keep someone else’s job (as long as the someone else wasn’t terrible).

    4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Wow, that’s a great question.

      I would probably tell the employee. I wouldn’t tell the employee because that meant I might be able to save somebody else’s job though. I’d tell the employee if I thought that was right thing to do for that one person. I’d have a hard time justifying keeping that to myself in a downsizing org.

      Probably.

    5. puddin*

      Let’s take a look at what you know:
      1. Your company is evaluating layoffs. [Does not sound they are a done deal just yet.]
      2. One company said at one time that they had an interest in possibly maybe hiring one of your team. [Did the person who say this have hiring authority, do they actually have a position open, is it something your employee would even want?]
      3. I will make an assumption, that you do not intend on recommending this person for layoff. [Upper management could pick and choose who they want without regard to your recommendations as well.]

      Until layoffs are announced and unless they effect your team, having another company want to hire away one of your better performers is a detriment to you and the company. As a manager your concern should be allied with the success of the company, especially at a time when finances are tight.

      I understand your desire to protect your team and it is admirable but it is not a sound managerial move. I don’t envy you having to do this a one bit, it totally sucks. There are ways to support those who may be laid off, I just do not think this is a sound one. Have you thought about how you would even begin to approach this with the person, your team, and your manager?

      “Richie, I want to talk to you about a job with another company. Why? Oh no reason, at least none that I can tell you anyway.”

      “Why did I tell Richie about a job opportunity but no one else who was actually slated for layoffs? Um well, I am not aware of any other openings.”

      “Why didn’t I tell everyone who was qualified about this other job? Um well, they were only interested in Richie because he is a top performer.”

      “Why did I convince my top performer to take a job elsewhere when the company is struggling and we need all the help we can get? Um well, I wanted to be nice.”

  128. JBean*

    Laid off! Woohoo!

    Our division is essentially sputtering along with a skeleton crew. Since my contract just ended, and there was no work in sight, I asked if I should begin the process of moving on. I got an affirmative response after initially being told to stay put for now. Phew! This was my Plan B when the contract ran long and I had trouble finding a new position. I had interviews but ultimately, the jobs required skills that I did not have and would take some time to learn.

    So, I’m laid off, will apply for unemployment, will continue looking for new positions but also develop a strategic plan for my career – and my physical, mental, and emotional health. Any other advice? I can pick up some contract work so I won’t have a too-long gap in my resume, but in reality I need time to deal with the horrible management and work environment I am leaving.

    2. Lisa*

      Enjoy the summer! Seriously, even 1 month off is going to do wonders for you. Get a daily routine going. Get up as usual, but go for a walk, exercise, read that book you never got to. Apply to jobs, get a certification that you never had time for. See friends, visit family, go do some mini bucket stuff, clean your home, go hiking, go swimming, take a cooking class, get a massage, enjoy your time off. Give your self a full month to recover from your workplace PTSD. You will feel amazing and you will be ready to take on what comes next.

  129. T*

    I have another question, I hope no one minds! Did anyone ever finish school and really realize the field they chose isn’t for them? I finished library school (although a paraprofessional program, so I don’t have an MLIS) and I thought I would really enjoy them? But I honestly find the field to be so annoying, I don’t think I have the personality for it at all!!

    I work at a school library now and I honestly enjoy the school environment so much more than a “true” library, and I’m finding the mix of personalities (admin/teacher/assistants/etc.) to be so much more enjoyable to work with (broadly speaking) than actual public/academic libraries. I’m sort of feeling like I made a mistake, because I just don’t have the proper personality to work in the most mainstream areas of my field (public libraries).

    1. Marcela*

      I have a BS in Physics, and it was evident very soon that I wasn’t as brilliant as to make a career of it. I still love it, but it’s not for me. While I was in college I needed to work to pay it, and one of the labs in my faculty needed an Unix admin. I didn’t know anything about that, but I applied anyway, asking them if I could be trained. This started my career as a full stack developer, moving from Unix administration to website development and now, “anything” development. I love what I do now, I could never go back to science.

    2. danr*

      So? The skills for assisting in a public library can be used in the school library. They aren’t wasted.

      1. T*

        Oh no, I didn’t mean they’re wasted. I just feel that if I want a “bigger” role in a library they’re wasted, especially in my region.

        1. Vanishing Girl*

          It sounds like your library program looked down upon school libraries. Mine had a specific and very difficult track for school libraries and people in that program got respect. Different types of people want to work in different types of environments. It’s good you found one you like! I never wanted to go into public libraries, either. I am currently in a corporate/special library, and never expected to be.

          Do you actually want a bigger role, or do you just feel you should since school libraries weren’t respected in your program?

          1. Modesty Blaise*

            That’s a good question (I’m probably replying way too late). I think it’s to do with the respect, I went to a school with a HUGE focus on public libraries (and academic, to a lesser extent). I feel like I’ve been brainwashed to think that I have to work in either of those two libraries to be truly *successful* in the field. I did work in a public library during the summer one year and I only “sort of” enjoyed it, but I still feel bitter about not being hired by my city public library! It honestly makes no sense to me, lol. While I’m logically enjoying my school library job, I’m irrationally annoyed that I don’t work at a public/academic library? It’s strange.

    3. BRR*

      Yup. I have a music performance degree and a masters in it and I do higher ed fundraising. Many people with library degrees do other things because the library field is so hard to get into. You have plenty of opportunities.

    4. K*

      Absolutely. I think one of the biggest problems with the way college is run is that you learn what you like to know, not what you like to do, which is what college is supposed to prepare you for.

    5. Shell*

      My chemistry degree is in a corner gathering dust, along with all my lab books and chem text. So definitely yes.

      I miss it, and I still wince a little when I see posts on my Facebook feed that goes on about the evils of organic chem (which I loved). But I didn’t (and couldn’t) want to make a career of it

    6. TheExchequer*

      Yep. I have a bachelor’s degree in English (which I kind of use in my current role as social media manager) and an associate’s in Biology. (I once thought I wanted to go into science. Then I realized I /hated/ doing the lab work required at the lower level). It’s part of life.

    7. Hummingbird*

      I was a high school history teacher major. I couldn’t break into the education field, and I didn’t like student teaching (mainly due to my cooperating teacher and supervisor). So I don’t use the “high school” part of my degree; I teach history at the college level. So did I waste the degree? A little bit as I’m not in a high school. I believe that with all of the standardized tests and new core curriculum going on that I would be way to out of the field now to be even considered.

    8. Elsajeni*

      I’m like Hummingbird — I have an M.Ed. and a teaching license (middle-school math), but my student-teaching placement was miserable and left me feeling completely hopeless about my ability to teach. I looked for teaching jobs anyway, but I knew I was half-assing it, so when an opportunity that looked good for me outside the field came up, I jumped at it. I do still kind of use my teaching background, though — I work at a university in a position that’s half institutional research (analyzing and reporting data about our students, faculty, courses, etc.) and half institutional effectiveness (assessing student learning and other program goals), and I rely a lot on my experience with K-12 assessment in the IE half.

    9. Sara*

      Yup. I picked my undergrad major because I was interested in the subject (which is what everyone who had any role in my college advising process told me to do), but when I started doing internships my junior year I realized that I had zero interest in the types of work and work environments that followed. (I do not function well in office environments and was very unsatisfied with the administrative tasks that were so much a part of my internships and most likely would have been most of my early career years.) But by then, a significant change to my major wasn’t really an option. (I probably could have moved over to another social science discipline, but frankly I didn’t see how my options were going to be significantly different if my diploma said sociology or history rather than international studies.) Luckily I got a scholarship to graduate school and was able to use that as a springboard to make a total career change (I’m a teacher now). It suits my personality much, much better.

    2. Sadsack*

      Yeah, the typo thing really got me. I had to stop reading at that point. I only skimmed the article, but I noticed a lot of points about conveying emotions properly. I actually try to leave my emotions out of emails entirely.

    3. Mockingjay*

      “The first step in avoiding miscommunication is to try to stand in the recipient’s shoes, and imagine how they are likely to interpret your message. Doing so can help you to prevent misunderstandings before they ever occur.” “Disclosing personal information while making small talk actually helps lubricate social interactions by building familiarity and trust.”

      Good grief. Now I have to worry about hurting someone’s feelings in a work email? Lubricating social interactions – ugh, the connotations. ‘nuff said.

    4. Kara Ayako*

      Wow, this is the worst. “Consider making strategic typos,” seriously? I could never respect someone if I found out he or she did this.

      1. land of oaks*

        ok, thank you all for agreeing with me. ;) I read it and was just so appalled I needed to share. You all get me.

  131. Miss Jedi-in-Training*

    I’m at my current contract role (the contract itself is up for ‘recompete’). How does this work? I’m a newbie.

    Also, I’m starting to get interviews for things like Senior Teapot Inscriber, or Teapot Policy Manager, and while I do have the equivalent of 2 masters, the titles intimidate me a bit. It’s exciting to feel like I’m progressing, but I feel a bit of imposter syndrome creeping up, and I’m in my late 20s/female that looks young for her age if that provides any perspective. Advice/thoughts?

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      The biggest question to ask yourself is not “Am I a Senior Teapot Inscriber?” but “Am I capable of doing the work outlined in this job description?” For me, imposter feelings start creeping in when I start identifying with the role vs. evaluating my actual capability to do the tasks in front of me.

  132. Jen RO*

    And another question: performance review time is coming and my boss told me that, if I want some of my reports to get an above-average rating, I’ll have to advocate for them. If you were receiving my recommendations, what kinds of things would you like to hear?

    Our job mainly involves writing, but with a heavy process management component. One of my reports is very new (~6 months), but is a great writer, is already helping me with reviewing the others’s work, and is great at taking a task and running with it (e.g. I tell her “you need to rewrite document X” and she is able to find the relevant people, get their feedback, incorporate it and come up with a final version without input from me). The other report has been here for about a year and a half and she helps me a lot with the process management part. She knows what her responsibility is, she chases me when I don’t respond in time, she makes sure the deliverables are ready before the deadline, she is very thorough and she’s not afraid of working overtime when she wants to result to be perfect, she networks with the relevant people and basically handles this (important) task 90% by herself, allowing me to have more time to deal with other things.

    Would this impress you or would I have to come up with more compelling arguments or numbers? (I suck at numbers.) Truth be told, these things are not really “going above and beyond”, but the other team members can’t work without my supervision, so I appreciate the hell out of someone who doesn’t need hand holding every step of the way. The other people will get an average rating (they are not *that* bad to deserve a below-average one), so I really want to be able to make this difference. The rating might also impact the bonus they receive (or *whether* they receive any bonus).

    1. Jen RO*

      Also, would it be inappropriate for me to share this kind of recommendation with the people in question? I am not very good with speaking and it would be easier if I could just forward an email :)

    2. Dawn*

      What’s your expectation of average in this role? Is average “can work without supervision” or is average “works with my supervision”? Because if it’s A, then the first two team members are average and everyone else is performing below average, and if it’s B then the first two team members are above average and everyone else is average.

      Either way you have some people that are performing at a higher level than others, and it’s up to YOU, their supervisor, to decide where on the performance scale they fall.

      1. Jen RO*

        Well… I definitely expect them to work without supervision, but the “average” people are all in their first jobs and maybe I’m asking too much, too soon? I also feel a bit guilty because I don’t have as much time as I would like for coaching them (two of the guys were hired under a different team lead, who pretty much left them to their own devices; the third guy is newer but I am super busy :( ).

        Also, they *do* work without supervision – the problem is that they mess up so I have to double check everything! (I am addressing all this already – one of them has improved, the others not so much.) In my company, no one gets a below-average rating unless they are on a PIP or on their way to one, and that is definitely not the case here.

        Thanks for the food for thought :) I will discuss with my manager next week and see what he feels too.

    3. AnotherFed*

      It sounds like you have two awesome people supporting you! If you’re nervous about saying all the right things, send your boss the feedback in email and talk to him in person. Whether you start with the email and use the discussion after to emphasize the key points or have the discussion first and follow up by email to reiterate depends on what makes you more comfortable and what’s the norm in your company. Even if the email isn’t normal for your culture, in this case it’s better to send it anyway, as long as you acknowledge that it’s unusual but these people are awesome enough that you want to make sure you advocate well.

      1. Jen RO*

        Thank you! Email would definitely be normal, because my boss is in another country.

  133. Dawn*

    So the new job I started 6 weeks ago is going along well and I like it. I spoke with the CEO (it’s a small company) today about how I was doing and the feedback is really positive- they like my work a lot and definitely want to keep me around. The issue is that I was hired contract to hire, with a 3 month contract period and then an evaluation to see about being hired full time. So today I was told that they are trying to figure out if there’s enough work for me to be hired on full time and I’m like “do what now?!?!” because this position was initially advertised as a full time position and I was under the impression that the reason I was hired contract to hire was that there was a chance that I’d be moving to another state in the next year (which is now not happening).
    I’m just… uuuuughhh!!! They would definitely keep me on as a contractor, just potentially not 40 hours a week every week. The being a contractor part is fine- I have insurance through my husband’s job, no biggie. Even potentially working less than 40 hours a week would be OK financially and not present a hardship. I’m just… I feel really disappointed because I was unemployed for 6 months and then landed this position and it’s really great and somehow I feel like I’m just not good enough or rockstar enough or amazing enough for them to want to hire me full time.
    I know this is an extremely nitpicky thing but it just feels like such a letdown after thinking to myself “YES- finally landed a job! 3 months contracting and then I’ll be FULL TIME BABY!!!” It makes me feel like a second class citizen for being a contractor (which is NOT the culture here in any way shape or form- I’m definitely treated like one of the family).
    Any advice for re-framing the situation in my head is greatly appreciated. And Jedi hugs, those would be nice too.

    1. Xarcady*

      Don’t know if this will help, but I’ve taken three (3) temp/contract to perm jobs in the last three years. None of them turned into a permanent job.

      At one of them, I found out that I was the 8th person to be “temp to perm” in that position. At that point, either they have no idea how to hire good people, or there is some benefit to the company (certainly not to the temps) to not filling the position permanently. I can’t believe that all 8 of us who tried the “temp to perm” option at that company were so awful that none of us could be hired permanently.

      It’s not you. It’s the company. Or the economy. Or some other factor.

      Mostly, I really wish companies would stop doing the “temp to perm” bit unless they really mean it. I know of several people who have also been burned by this tactic–you naturally stop your job hunt because, hey, in three months you will have a real, permanent job!–and no one who has been hired permanently. Sometimes they keep getting their temp job renewed, but they don’t actually get hired.

      So do not look on this as reflecting on you. After all, they like your work and would like to keep you on. If only they have enough work. It’s a problem within the company, and nothing to do with you.

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, I muttered a curse word when I logged onto an IT system and inadvertently saw my contract date had been extended. I’ve pretty much picked up they have no incentive to convert me to an employee. (I can’t be considered for any internal roles until I successfully complete my contract.)

      2. A Definite Beta Guy*

        At my company, we, over the course of 4 years, hired 40 “temp-to-hires.” Only two were ever actually hired. I don’t doubt such positions do exist, and in fact I just had lunch with a girl who found her current gig based on such a scheme, but any Fortune 500 doing “temp-to-hire” reads “scam” to me.

        What do other AAM readers think?

        1. Stephanie*

          Hmmm, I don’t know if scam is the right word, but I do think it’s common to get led on. The cynic in me thinks the company has no incentive to convert from temp to perm. I’m doing that now and am under no delusion that I’ll get converted. My counterpart did, but she said the Big Boss (who has since retired) really pushed for it.

          One of my best friends did get converted from a temp role, but it took a long time (over a year). Luckily, the temp agency gave her full benefits.

  134. Owl*

    I just found out that at my old company, my boss and three others were laid off. I worked closely with three out of the four. My boss was the only one from the group that hadn’t worked there over 30 years. I have the contact info for one of them and my relatives have been saying I should contact her, but I’m not sure if I should right now or even what to say. I also don’t have my old boss’s contact info, which is frustrating, because she would have been a good reference (not as great as my shift leaders, who actually saw me work, but still really good). I also heard that nobody has figured out how to actually do anything about these major changes, so that’s… just so like them I’m not surprised at all (in the top ten reasons why I left). I’m really sad, but I’m also realizing that I’ve moved on, which is good. In all of this, I guess I’m just still a bit… relieved that I left? I loved the work, just not the environment, culture, and location. I keep running into circumstances where I realize how unhealthy it was to work there and how healthy my current job is. So, yeah. Just wanted to say something that’s been on my mind. And many thanks to AAM for everything. I don’t think I would have been able to get my current awesome job without AAM.

  135. M*

    Maybe this is an odd question but I thought I’d throw this out there –

    So, how common is it to fire people or put them on PIPs? I’ve been in the professional working world for 14 years and I guess I always assumed this was like a VERY once-in-a-million years thing (maybe this is me being naive though?!)

    My SIL and I work for the same, large F100 company, though in completely different areas. She’s a manager with direct reports and I am not. She is constantly telling me how she is putting people on PIPs and having to fire people. Like, ALL the time. She manages a team of accountants, so it’s not like she is managing front line tellers, where this would be more common — these are specialized positions.

    She’s only been a manager for about 18 months (she’s a first-time manager), but she has fired about 4 people so far, and put even more on PIPs.

    Thinking of my own group, I can’t imagine anyone I personally work with who would be on a PIP or in danger of getting fired. And thinking of our company’s culture, it’s not a churn-and-burn place – It’s an awesome company.

    And even thinking back through my whole professional career, I STILL can’t imagine it.

    Is this common? I’ve never had direct reports. I just always assumed this kind of thing just doesn’t happen often.

    Or perhaps she’s really hard on people? I don’t know.

    1. MT*

      Being a new manager, there could be reasons why the old manager isnt there any more. If the old manager let people get away with murder, its hard to break old habits. This maybe people just refusing to change.

    2. Anon Accountant*

      Has she shared the reasons for firing people? Have they been caught breaching confidential data? Not following strict company procedures regarding cash payments in spite of multiple warnings?

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      Or perhaps the previous manager let slackers get away with murder and she’s enforcing performance standards.

    4. Jen RO*

      It’s not common in my company. In about 5 years, about 25 different people in my department overall, one was put on a PIP and another was on her way to one when she found another job.

    5. Judy*

      It also depends on if the company has forced rankings. Two F50 companies I worked for had forced rankings, and 5% of the workforce had to be rated “1” each year, and either fired or placed on a PIP. A PIP was also a possibility for the 10% that were forced into the “2” rating, although I think it wasn’t required.

      It was not necessarily publicized when someone was on a PIP. I only know of 2 people who were placed on a PIP at my last company, and really because they told me. I don’t pay attention enough to know that Bob is having a weekly meeting with Jane, his supervisor, and Tom from HR. I think the meetings were taking place in the HR conference room which was in another part of the building.

    6. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      We term a few people a year. It used to be more.

      Once you have a good culture going, you hopefully are not terming people who have been with the company for awhile. If people have been managed poorly before and problem employees have been allowed to linger, it can take a couple of years to get all that righted. You have to first give them a chance to improve and then terminate them if they don’t.

      With a good culture and a strong existing team, any terms, hopefully, are new hires who don’t work out after a reasonable (but mercifully brief) period of time.

    7. Nobody*

      I’ve worked at two large companies (Fortune 200), and I never even heard of a PIP until I started reading AAM. I guess it’s not that common in my industry. Normally, the performance review has a section for areas for improvement, which is probably a little more extensive for people who are given low ratings, but I’ve never heard of a formal PIP as a separate process.

      It’s pretty difficult to get fired in the places I’ve worked. I’ve only seen a few people get fired, and those have been for gross misconduct, gross incompetence (repeated serious mistakes), or failing out of the training program (multiple test failures even after remediation). I have never heard of anyone getting fired for laziness, except when the laziness leads to gross misconduct, such as falsifying documentation. Managers aren’t typically fired, but put on “special assignment,” which I think is intended as a way of paying them until they find another job.

    8. AnotherFed*

      I’m vey late to the party, but wanted to throw in another thought. If your SIL has specific experience or technical knowledge, she could have been brought in specifically to clean up a low-performing unit or resolve major audit findings. Unfortunately, that often means that people haven’t been doing their jobs properly and need to be first reminded of what behavior and performance is expected of them, then fired if they do not improve. My SO ends up doing this a lot – he’s also federal gov’t, where firing can be difficult, and is used to clean up sections that are floundering because he’s very good at figuring out which people are trying hard but have no leadership guiding what they’re doing and which people are just slacking because no one is making them not slack.

  136. LadyHope*

    I’m feeling pretty stuck and not sure how to get to the “next level” in my career.

    I’m nearly 30. Ten years ago I dropped out of college halfway through. Since then I’ve worked in office/administration type roles beginning with customer service and gradually progressing in salary/responsibility to my current role as an administrative assistant. In the last two years I have been working to finish my degree on top of working full time and in December I will receive my Bachelor’s in Business Administration.

    I don’t feel like my current role leaves a lot of room for growth. I’ve tried applying for other positions but I think that being in a college town and showing that I’m working on degree makes people think I am a college student despite my years of experience. However, I’m not sure how much of a difference obtaining my degree is really going to make, other than getting me past the people who (wrongly) discard anyone who does not have a degree.

    I would really love to break into a role where I can put my strong writing skills and attention to detail to work- perhaps in an advertising copy writing or marketing position. I’ve tried to take on marketing projects in my current role as much as possible, and several people in my office now run letters and documents by me to check for errors before sending them out because of my attention to detail.

    How can I leverage my Business Administration degree to get me into the roles I am interested in? I do not want to go into accounting or finance, which unfortunately has made up a lot of the curriculum for this degree. In general, I feel like completing this degree on top of working full time shows my strong work ethic and determination, but I’m afraid people are just going to think I am lame for taking to years to finish, or misunderstand and assume that finishing my degree in 2015 means I’m in my early 20’s and not an experienced employee.

    I guess I’m just looking for reassurance that all this hard work to finish my degree will pay off and that I have a chance to be something other than an administrative assistant in the future.

    1. RCJH*

      Actually, I work in marketing at a medium-sized bank, which sounds like something you’d be good at. My biggest challenge is understanding the terminology and legal requirements of banking advertisement, and your degree would give you a head start on that.

      Would it be feasible for you to find some kind of marketing internship? That would get you the experience you need to be a very strong candidate, imo, but a full-time internship might pay less than what you need, and a part-time internship might conflict with your work schedule.
      Since you’re already taking on marketing projects in your current role, keep those on file to show potential employers. And make sure to add something about marketing projects to your resume.

    2. Mz. Puppie*

      You have a clear path from Administrative Assistant to Marketing Assistant to just plain marketing. Also look at Sales Assistant and both Marketing & Sales followed by “coordinator”. I think it will actually be an easy sell.

    3. Jessie's Girl*

      When you graduate, I would say leave off the year and only let people know if they ask. I think, at this point, it would be ok to have your degree listed after your relevant employment so people will see that you’ve been working for years and, therefore, not new to the workforce.

      However, I do think that you’ll probably have to expect entry level positions since you’re breaking into a new field.

  137. Ali*

    I don’t have a whole ton to report this week. I got a volunteer gig with an education-related nonprofit (working virtually) and turned down a different virtual volunteer job because I felt like one virtual job (two if you count my ongoing social media work) was enough, and the last thing I needed to do was isolate myself. I struggled with the decision because the second gig was a sports-related volunteer role, but I figured if I ever wanted to cut the cord on sports, then continuing to take non-paying work in the field wasn’t going to help.

    I was approved for unemployment and got my first payment today, but I’m waiting for it to show in my account. I’m feeling a little better now that the money is there, but I still got upset the other day because I felt lonely and wished I were like the groups of coworkers I see around town taking walks or having lunch together on their breaks. I really want to get out of my house and be a part of a work community again!

    Next week I am going to get out and try to see if I can get any applications done in person. I’m kind of lucky in that I’m not far from some places who still do take face-to-face applications because they’re small companies or non-chain restaurants so they don’t have the huge tracking systems. I am worried still a bit about being set back by taking a lower paying job, but my plan is to find something that can get me out of the house while using my off hours to find full-time jobs, volunteer and/or freelance. I just hope the plan works…

  138. Marie*

    Been waiting over a year to have my temp position converted into a permanent position. I worked two years part-time while at school, and have been full-time a year now – I was promised when I started full-time that they would have my position turned into a permanent one within 6 months, then when that didn’t pan out it was another 3 months, then another 3 months, etc, etc. They’ve extended my contract yet again by another month, and it’s always the same story (This is the last time, we promise!). I’m the only one in my department with this predicament and the stress of it all has been having negative consequences on my mental health and my work ethic. All my coworkers, who are salaried, take long lunches, come in late, leave early, have weeks of vacation, take sick days and personal days, while I have maybe missed 2-3 days of work in the last 3 years, and have received nothing in return. I haven’t even gotten a raise (even though I’m severely underpaid for the work I’m doing) because they keep telling me I’ll have a salary bump when I get my “new position”.

    Being a temp at my institution means being paid by the hour with no benefits, no sick days, no vacation time, no paid holidays, and none of the time I’m working now counts towards seniority (so even though I have been here 3 years, I would be starting at square one once/if I’m hired), and worst of all no job security. Also, when my department shut down at Christmas for two weeks (I work at a university), I lost out on an entire paycheque, which would be stressful enough without it being during the holidays.

    Leaving my current job is not really an option, as my only alternative that isn’t being unemployed is going back to retail/the service sector and making minimum wage again. I have been job hunting for over 6 months, and the feedback that I have gotten so far is that no one is interested in hiring someone my age (I’m 23), as unemployment is rising where I live and there are plenty of candidates with 5-1o years of experience who are willing to accept more junior positions.

    Overall, just very frustrated and beaten down despite not being in the workforce for very long.

    1. Xarcady*

      I’m sorry you are going through this. It has to be demoralizing.

      For what it’s worth, I’d keep up the job hunt. It can’t hurt, and you may stumble across a company that would love to hire you.

      Is it possible to make a lateral move within the university? That’s an option you could explore as well.

      And two weeks before the current contract runs out, I’d have a sit-down with my boss, in which I would politely and calmly tell her that the job insecurity is beginning to bother you, and you really need an answer–will you be hired permanently, have your temporary status extended indefinitely, or be let go within the next few months? This is not an unreasonable question to ask. I think that letting the Powers That Be know that you are no longer happy with the current situation is a good thing in these cases. It sometimes spurs them into action.

      1. Xarcady*

        Another tactic might be to have a conversation with your supervisor, where you try to negotiate a little. Maybe they can’t hire you permanently right now, but how about a raise, even a small one?

        Or maybe they can’t give you a raise, even though you’ve been promised one, but how about hiring you full time right now, with a raise in 6 months or so? You’d get the advantage of paid time off, sick days, etc. Getting the raise and timeframe in writing, of course.

        Either way, you’d be better off than you are now.

        1. Marie*

          Thanks for the feedback.

          I have been full-time for over a year, but do not get benefits, sick days, vacation days, etc, because I am not “permanent”, but am a contract employee. The university is hiring many, many temps lately to get around hiring freezes and having to pay out benefits. I have meet people in the university who have been temps for 5+ years and still don’t even have vacation time. The unemployment problem in our province is just awful so people take what they can.

          I have had discussions over a dozen times over the last few months with my supervisor(s), and I keep getting the same response: the long-term plan is to add me as a permanent employee, but things are just “taking longer” than they anticipated. And they refuse to give me a raise, because they are only obligated to give me a 1% raise once per year (effective next month) per university policy, and they claim that they are only approved by HR to give me the bare minimum for right now (which I know is false, but I’m not going to get very far by calling them out on the fact that they are lying to me. I know all the HR guidelines and policies like the back of my hand). Unfortunately, TPTB is a central HR department that manages thousands of employees so they really don’t care whether or not I as an individual decide to leave.

          I am considering looking into applying for other jobs inside the university, but I know that even if I just apply my department will know about it. So I have to decide whether or not it’s worth the risk of getting fired if they find out I’m exploring other options.

  139. Holly Olly Oxen Free*

    Oh my god, I’m so frustrated. I’m creating technical documents using microsoft word and every time I get far on one of them the formatting suddenly goes all wonky and everything gets messed up. I can’t nudge objects because they jump around. I press a down arrow and it goes up. Eventually I manage to nudge it almost back in place and it jumps again. A few times I tried to nudge and it shrunk the object! I just tried to send an image to the back and it miniturized half the page. Really, I can’t make this stuff up. The only solution seems to be to start all over and I’m just wasting massive amounts of time. Banging my head against my desk.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      Desktop publishing in word is horrendous, I’ve got nothing but sympathy for you.

      1. LCL*

        I totally agree. My limited tricks in word 2010, besides calling the help desk are:
        From the home screen, click on the paragraph mark. It shows paragraph and other formatting marks in your document.
        Try adding a couple blank pages to your document. Cut and paste your graphic elements there, size them how you want them, then paste them back into the document.
        One way to add captions, from the insert page click text box, type your caption into the box

        If it makes you feel any better, I asked our resident expert to help me with making a flyer in word, and why it seems so much harder than previous versions, and he said “because it sucks, that’s why” He doesn’t like it either.

        1. Holly Olly Oxen Free*

          Lol. It really does suck. I use a Mac at home and it doesn’t have these problems. I really can’t understand why it’s so difficult for microsoft to make it work properly. I appreciate those tips! I never would have thought to turn on the paragraph Mark. I do only do text boxes and don’t type anything on the page, which helps, but still not great. I’m going to try the others on Monday.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      I’m working on a similar project as we speak. I think Word just gets to a point where it goes “you’ve been at this for six hours, I’m done.” I save, close out, reopen, and that usually helps.

      1. Holly Olly Oxen Free*

        Yup. That about describes it. I tried saving, closing and reopening, but it didn’t help unfortunately. :(

        I wish I had another program and I’m trying to think of a way to ask my manager of the company would shell out for it. I work for a software company so you would think they would have the best. But I’m only in my second month here and I’m really not sure how they respond to that kind of request or how to ask and make a good case for it.

        1. Yellow Flowers*

          Sometimes the time savings are worth it. If you can show that X took Y hours with Word but only Z hours with InDesign, it may be worth the cost of the software. Explaining to someone what InDesign is and why Word isn’t the end all, be all program she thinks it is could be another story.

  140. ThatOneRedhead*

    Teambuilding activities that don’t suck – myth or magic?

    I’m one of five supervisors in our department. It’s that special time of the fiscal year when we’re charged with putting on a team building. Does anyone have an idea (aside from time off) of an activity that could work for a group of about 40 people, mostly in their 30s in the Midwest? So far, I’ve thought of bowling or a group volunteering activity. (Our last one was drinks at a bar, so that is unfortunately out.)

      1. ThatOneRedhead*

        The goal is to get team members who don’t normally work together to mingle. Ideally, we’d like this to lead to more communication between functional areas. (When people don’t talk openly, we can miss opportunities to prevent problems.)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Well, a day of mingling won’t solve that! Instead, think about what’s leading to the lack of communication and find ways to tackle that — that’s a business problem, not a team-building problem!

    2. A Definite Beta Guy*

      My workplace did a group food shelter event a week or so ago. Everyone loved it. Not sure how much “team-building” actually happened, but no one considered their time wasted. Despite being a mandatory uncompensated event of work premises an hour away for some people!

    3. pony tailed wonder*

      Way back when, my dad’s boss once rented a movie theater for all the employees to see big blockbuster movie one summer. They all got special t-shirts to wear, free popcorn and soda, etc. The management spoke for about 10 to 15 minutes before the show to thank the employees and pep talk them. My dad still talks about how he got to see the big summer movie before his teenage kids got to.

    4. AnotherFed*

      We did paintball last weekend – we’re a group of mostly male office workers in our 20s and 30s. We rented a facility so we had it to ourselves (no ringers) and rented gear for everyone (rental gear is generally less amped up, so getting hit doesn’t hurt). We brought snacks and beverages, and people joined in games as they felt like on fields that were interesting and generally had a ton of fun.

      Your mileage may vary, but for us, it worked well. It wasn’t mandatory, and we set up teams to be fair and rules to be on the side of mercy (allowing surrender, no close range shooting, more woodsball than speedball) and the games to be more about strategy than physical ability. That meant even the 5’2″ 95 lb female had as much fun as the 6′ 4″ 270 lb guy did (probably more, because you just can’t hide a 6’4″ guy on some of those fields!).

  141. PushingThings*

    I’ve been asked to weigh in on the idea of asking finalists for a position sit in on a series of presentations that, if hired, they’d have to lead in the future. This is not intended as a test, they will not be asked to do any presenting themselves, but the idea is that when the successful candidate has to do this presentation themselves 4 months down the road, they’ll have had the opportunity to see that the presentations entail. We’d be talking about 10 hours over 3 days. The suggested plan would be to make this voluntary, and not hold it against anyone if they couldn’t attend any or all of the series (good luck with that, imo).

    Best I can tell, this is legal, but to me it seems a lot to ask of a candidate given the number of hours, and could potentially feel awkward to the other participants. Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      Wow, that’s a heck of a lot to ask, and I don’t think you can ask without it seeming mandatory. Are these presentations open to the public? I think it would be okay to go with a “You might want to drop by if you’re interested in seeing this in action.” But can’t you just video the presentations so that the successful candidate can watch the video? It seems to me that this would be way too much for anybody not in the running for a very high-level position, and if they’re in the running for a high-level position this isn’t a sensible way to use their time.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Way too much to ask, unless you pay them for their time (and even then, way too much to ask). Since you’re not using it as an assessment tool, why not find another way to convey the info? For example, you could give them a link to see a video of one of the presentations, on their own time (and where they could watch as much or as little as they wanted).

      1. PushingThings*

        Well that was fast :) Thanks, AAM and fposte – and I like the video idea. I agree it’s a better solution, and I think it’ll appeal to the hiring manager as well.

    3. Student*

      As you’ve described it, this is training. It makes sense to do this once you’ve hired someone. It makes no sense to train a bunch of job candidates in this very specific aspect and role of your business.

      How does the person suggesting this think it’ll work, logistics-wise, for the candidates? “We’d like you to take four days off work. One day for actual interviews, and then another 3 days of training in how to do a specific presentation.”

      1. Xarcady*

        That was my first thought–if the candidates are working, there’s no way they are going to get time off for three days for this. Especially if they are trying to keep their job hunt secret.

        The video idea sounds good, though.

  142. Locks*

    Wow, I’m obviously too late to avoid having this buried, but I’ll throw it out there anyway. I’m commenting for the first time, but I’ve been a reader for a very long time, and would love to get some advice from the community here.

    After a lot of soul-searching and research, I’ve decided that I’m going to change fields, and will be applying to graduate school about a year from now, with plans to start in the fall. For the fifteen months from now until then, I’ll be keeping my current job.

    My question is, how do I respond to questions from my managers in performance reviews, etc about what my plans are, and my goals with the company? The thought of outright lying makes me uncomfortable, but it seems like that’s what I’ll have to do.

    Any input would be very appreciated!

    1. Xarcady*

      Well, you haven’t even applied to grad school yet. And a lot can change in 15 months. So I’d answer as if I expected to be at the company for a while. Because you might, you never really know.

      It’s not lying. It’s one possible version of your future. What would happen if you didn’t get into grad school, or got in but with no financial aid, or were wait-listed for your 1st choice school? You might have to push the grad school plans back by a year, and you will be grateful for your job if that happens.

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        I agree. You’re not swearing to stay with the company, you’re envisioning a possible future with the company. I would be honest about your goals–what experience do you truly want to gain before you leave?–without actually telling them you’re planning on resigning until it’s close enough to the date to provide a respectful transition period.

    2. Graciosa*

      If there are any areas in which you can improve while employed, mention those – learning more about X or developing a particular skill could be good options.

      Some skills – communication skills / public speaking / presentations, for example – are useful across multiple fields. Computer skills are another area where you can find things to learn that could be useful in your current position and your new field.

      You can also then tell your boss truthfully that improving your skill in [insert transferable skill] is important to you, and you would like to continue to develop in that area.

  143. Lenka86*

    So I work in a department at a university that gets very busy during the first 3/4ths of each semester. This year in particular has been stressful for me, as I’ve taken on additional projects. I’ve finally gotten to the end of the semester and now I’m just burned out and don’t want to do anything. Thing is, this is the time when we start on bigger projects we can’t get to at other times. I also have some research and professional development-type things on my plate. But I’m just so tired! How to I motivate myself to get back on track? Any advice?

    1. So Very Anonymous*

      Can you take a long weekend or a couple of vacation days to clear your head? Or even a work from home day if you have that option? I have this kind of schedule too, and I find it helps if I can take a little time to recharge before getting into the bigger projects/research/etc. The end of spring semester is always hard because, unlike the end of fall semester, there isn’t a holiday break, things just keep going. I usually have to make some kind of break for myself.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      Is there any way you can squeeze in a mini vacation before diving into the next thing? Take advantage of Memorial Day and extend that into a 4- or 5-day weekend, maybe. Don’t travel or try and fit in a bunch of personal obligations, just relax and enjoy the chance to catch your breath.

  144. neighborhood friendly QA tech*

    Update!
    I got hired on at the Chocolate plant! However… Our team of 4 is now down to 2 and a trainee in her first week. I’m now the most experienced person in the lab.
    I still love my job, minus some issues. But woo!

      1. neighborhood friendly QA tech*

        Yes. One that actually produces chocolate. We provide the chocolate for all of you guys to turn into your teapots. :)

  145. Ali*

    Actually I lied a little bit above because I just got a phone call to go back to NYC for an interview! Now…this is not the same place I spent about five minutes at last week. This is a different job for a nonprofit organization. I hope at least this time I get a little bit of a longer interview and there’s a better match. And…oh yeah, the guy who called me asked me a few questions over the phone first and THEN extended the in-person invite. Maybe that’s a better sign!

  146. Getting Back on Your Feet*

    This questions is mostly targeted to 2008-2011 graduates.

    Has anyone who wasn’t able to find a full-time, professional job related to their degree of study within a few years of graduation able to find work in that field eventually? Or, have you been able to find full-time, steady work in food-service, retail, or a related industry?

    How do you compete with people who have more experience or a fresher education? How have you explained your employment gaps when there’s no childcare, consulting, or health issue (except perhaps depression) to explain a multi-year job search? I have volunteer work and some continuing education, but I’m starting to worry that they make me appear too desperate and unfocused. Or do you think it’s reasonable to have pursued alternative but related job search paths once you’ve been trying at a certain career for a few years?

    I’m tried seeking out help from programs in my community for ‘difficult to employ’ people, but they say I shouldn’t have any barriers to employment. My inability to land a full-time job or more than one part-time job at at time doesn’t seem to matter.

    1. lakaris*

      Hello fellow 2011 graduate. This struck a cord with me because I felt like that for a bit after I graduated and actually I still sort of do. I majored in Philosophy and Anthropology so just to give you a background and now I am a receptionist at a construction company. After I graduated I worked for a temp agency and the temp jobs paid OK. They were mind numbing but the bills got paid. Then I got a job at a non-profit that I had interned for in the last semester of college. So I guess the internship thing does work. The internship did not pay anything when I was doing it, but the job they offered me was pretty ok paying.
      So, no I was not able to find work in my field of study though to be honest I never had a plan. I just needed to start making money and though I make a modest sum I am able to live happily on it.

      1. Ali*

        I graduated in 2008 and was a communications grad, concentration in journalism. I went into college wanting to be a newspaper reporter, but in my junior year, I began to see how much papers were dying out. Of course, by then it was too late to change tracks/majors into something more employable. I came out and worked unrelated jobs for two years and then got my most recent job in 2010, an unpaid internship that turned into nearly five years of employment before I got let go a few weeks ago. My plan was to get a job with a sports team, but that industry is extremely competitive, especially if you didn’t do your requisite internships and volunteering during college. (Which I didn’t out of ignorance and not realizing how crucial it was for success.)

        Now that I’m out of my sports media gig, I’m still looking for communications jobs. But I’m going to be 30 in a month and I’m again out of work, save for a part-time job in social media with a small company. I still want to have a job that involves writing and social media, but at this point, I’m also looking into paths that might make me more employable or give me some better skills. I’m interviewing next week for a nonprofit job that deals with the membership base. I know being able to interact with members of an organization is pretty key to success in a nonprofit, so I figured it might give me a chance to start fresh in a less cutthroat environment and launch a whole new path if I get the job.

        That said, I’m pondering other career paths right now. Hospitality management and pharmacy tech are things I’ve always thought about too.

        1. Felicia*

          I have a similar education to you …not exactly similar career path but similar degree. I currently work with a non profit with the membership base – my title is member services administrator. I love it! I use a surprising number of my writing/communications skills, and it’s grown to include more writing/communications. I think this is can be a great role for people with our education background.

      2. Anx*

        Whoops! I was an 08 grad but that wasn’t very clear.

        I don’t think I had a very good plan while I was in school myself. I saw so many people just go into a lab tech position and do a-ok that I thought I’d be fine doing that. I definitely didn’t take enough advantage of the resources I was paying for at the time.

    2. Felicia*

      I am a 2012 grad, so close enough I think. It took me 2 full years to find a full time, permanent job . It’s not exactly what I studied, but it’s very close and I use a lot of the skills i gained from my university program. It’s because I majored in journalism, which is super competitive. I think in slightly alternative but related paths, you may find something you love – i started trying that after i had been looking for journalism jobs for only 6 months, and it still took a full year and a half to find something related. The trick though is to make a compelling case both for why you want this related new career path, and why you feel your program will be relevant. You always have to do that to an extent, but even more in this case.

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      I graduated in December 0f 2007, and kind of wasn’t sure what to do with myself. I had never wanted “a career” and so never thought of “what I wanted to do.”

      I finally figured out what direction I wanted to go (publishing), and it took until November of 2011 to get a full-time job in the field. During that time, I took certificate courses (in copyediting) and got an internship. All the while I worked various jobs as a tutor, babysitter, food service worker, etc.

      But what made me “hirable” as an entry-level wasn’t so much my experience/recent job hopping but my *skills.* Some jobs require more experience, of course, but having valuable skills I think will trump “steady job history” anytime. I think most people would understand your position.

      Good luck!

    4. DS*

      I graduated in 2011 with a history degree- I’m not honestly sure what I was aiming to do, but I had no luck finding a full-time job. I spent a year doing volunteer work and tutoring before deciding to go to grad school in public health. I just started my first full-time non-internship job ever a week ago (in public health). It’s definitely been a struggle and I’ve got quite a few loans, but other than that things finally look more promising. I did find work in my (second) field. My friends (the ones with liberal arts majors) who graduated at the same time as me (in 2011) eventually worked things out too, even though most of them didn’t end up in the field they originally wanted.

    5. Hummingbird*

      I’m 2007 and the economy hit me.
      -Yes. I work full-time in my field during the summer, and I work part-time in my field during the school year as an adjunct. I got my summer job in this organization by volunteering for a few years beforehand. I’m hoping this will eventually turn into my career (and hopefully sooner rather than later).
      -I have found year-round part-time work in retail which has absolutely nothing to do with my degrees.

      Luckily I do not have any gaps in my work history right now.

    6. Sara*

      I graduated in 2008 and spent my first year out of college working at a job that paid my bills (I was lucky to be able to live at home) while volunteering in an area that blended my college major/interests with the career I now realize I should have pursued all along (teaching English language learners). I did continue to search for jobs related to my college degree for about a year, and even in that short amount of time I found it challenging to explain my underemployment. I got a lot of interviewers asking me to explain why I was doing X when I was telling them I wanted to do Y, and it definitely soured me on the whole process. (Had these people never been poor new graduates? Did they never have bills that needed to be paid, like, now?) Explaining my geography was also very frustrating; I knew people who moved to more expensive East Coast cities with more job opportunities in that field without anything lined up, but that simply wasn’t an option for me, financially.

      I never got a job because of my undergraduate degree, but I bridged the gap between my undergrad work and my grad work/career path with a job that blended some of those interests. Fortunately, that’s been enough to explain what I did between finishing my BA and starting graduate school. I wish I had better advice for someone who doesn’t want to change job/career paths, but for me embracing the fact that I picked the “wrong” major in undergrad and choosing to go to grad school (my field requires a degree with a specific major) without feeling like I’d “failed” after college helped me to move forward.

    7. Hazel*

      2012 graduate here. It’s taken me three years to find anything that isn’t retail or care work. I haven’t found something strictly related to my degree, but it does use the skills I learned.

    8. Jessie's Girl*

      Yes and no, although it took about 3 years and it felt like a long slog. My job is basically directly related to what I was studying in college; However, although I wanted to be a lawyer originally, a few years working showed me that I never want to be a lawyer, ever.

      Unfortunately, I’m not as far along in my career as I had hoped to be, I’m probably better off than I would have been if hadn’t made some of the choices I made post-college.

  147. Link*

    I’m struggling with a lot of anxiety and stress at work, and I think much of it comes from my terrible relationship with my supervisor. Is it worth trying to create or repair a relationship when you are planning on moving on anyway? I would really like to be out of here in a year, two max (going back to school online to change careers).

    More about the situation:

    We never talk beyond eval season and timesheets. She never assigns me tasks and has spent much of her time as boss removing tasks and responsibilities from me and kicking me out of meetings and discussion relevant to my job. When I make progress on my goals (we are required to set them each year), I get reamed for not doing a good job on my core duties. If I drop all attempts at increasing my knowledge through training and job shadowing, suddenly, I’m doing great. (I’m not doing anything different with my core duties, I am very careful with ensuring that I’m not away training during peak hours or gone too much, and I get nothing but praise from the people I work with.) It feels like she decided very early on that she didn’t like me and didn’t want to be bothered with supervising me. Her negative attitude towards me is affecting how my co-workers treat me. At this point I have completely shut down. When I started, I was so overwhelmed due to staffing issues that I needed her to reassign some tasks or find help for me. When she started curtailing the pieces of my job I liked, I stopped speaking up. I’m no longer overwhelmed by work and I spend much of my day bored out of my skull, which is stressful because I feel pressured to appear like I am doing something and it really gives fodder to the part of me that thinks I’m useless and a waste of resources. This effects my attitude and I find my attitude degrading. I don’t think it’s effecting my work but the strain of keeping my feelings in is immense.

    It’s to the point that I stalk the office calendar to see if she’s going to be in the office or not. I’m taking way more sick time than I have in the past and my dread of being even in the same building as her is affecting my time off too. I’m pissed that this situation is trying to unravel all the progress I’ve made with my mental health in the past. (My doctor just put me back on medication, but apparently my stupid body is no longer willing to tolerate it even though I did fine on it a few years ago. Not even certain what to do about that.)

    I am planning on getting out, but quitting without something else lined up isn’t an option. Should I try and fix things with my supervisor, or just try to keep it together until I can escape?

    1. Link*

      Okay, I wasn’t very clear here:

      When I started, I was so overwhelmed due to staffing issues that I needed her to reassign some tasks or find help for me. When she started curtailing the pieces of my job I liked, I stopped speaking up.

      This should read:

      When I she started, I was so overwhelmed due to staffing issues that I needed her to reassign some tasks or find help for me. When she started curtailing the pieces of my job I liked that were not issues and , I stopped speaking up. (I was here first, and the staffing issues were due to changes instituted shortly before she arrived. Work is no longer overwhelming because our customer load has dropped dramatically. The staffing issues were never resolved, things just work better because it’s slower in the office.)

      1. fposte*

        Is she the same with everybody, or is it just you? What specifically would look like improvement to you–getting good annual reviews, being able to pick up the tasks you like again, being assigned new tasks? How long has she been there? I don’t actually hold it against her that she took some of the tasks you liked off your plate–when you ask your manager to lighten the load, it’s not necessarily going to be limited to stuff you don’t like as much. However, the never assigning you tasks when presumably everybody else gets them, the shouldering you aside, etc., is bad news.

        If you think it’s worth it, you could ask for a meeting with her where you nondefensively say that you feel like she’s got concerns about you beyond even what gets mentioned in annual reviews, and you’d really like to be able to change that. What could you do to achieve a level where you’d be given tasks/included in meetings? But if you can’t even get a meeting with her, I think you need to detach. Do your job, sure, but focus more on what works for you and let her go. The other thing I hear in your account, however, is a business that’s in trouble. So I’d factor that into your plans–there may be layoffs or straight out closure coming down the road.

        Oh, and if you’re not actively looking for another job–do that. Monday.

        1. Link*

          She treats one coworker the same as me that I know of. We share a job title but have no shared duties. She is used to being treated like this and is happy to be left alone, so she’s not much of an ally.

          Evals are okay. She actually did mark me down in my first review with her, but then her boss pulled me in to discuss the review with me (without my supervisor!) and whether I thought it was fair. I think I said something along the lines of, “that’s how she feels and I’ll do my best to improve.” And the evals have been fine ever since–vague but fine. (She’s been here almost two years, and we have two reviews a year, so my fourth with her is coming up.) So… I guess that conveys the depth of dysfunction in my office? We are desperately struggling for relevance, and that has really lit a fire under my butt to go back to school. I’ve been quietly looking for about a year now, but no bites. I’m hoping retraining will help me jump into a different field, but I’ve only just managed to get started.

          Good to me would be being able to do what I tasks I have left without getting undermined, at the very least. It would be nice if “everyone” included me when meetings or trainings are scheduled (or at least acknowledge that not everyone was invited, informed or approved for the opportunity), or stick up for me with my coworkers. They walk all over me, and I have no authority to push back because she doesn’t support me. And if I start overstepping my role, I run afoul of the union, my coworkers complain and my supervisor squashes me. I know I won’t get promoted and I can’t really be a superstar in my role with her above me; I just want to be able to do what I’m supposed to (help the customers) and feel like I might be part of the team occasionally.

          I get that she might have thought she was helping by taking some tasks off my plate, but I just couldn’t help the volume of people coming in by myself. I do all my non-customer service tasks at the end of the day when no one’s coming in, so removing them doesn’t really help me at all. I needed another warm body to triage the influx of customers, or maybe relief from answering the phones at the same time when it was busy. But she never asked what I specifically needed help with.

          I think I might just bring it up in the next eval, which is next month. Getting a meeting with her is painful. She blew me off for six weeks once.

  148. ugh*

    Omg. It’s a pretty quiet and slow Friday here. Everyone else is out except for me. I have a cordless phone so I walk around the empty office with my phone in case someone calls. A coworker from another office calls and we start to chat as I am doing other tasks that don’t require much thinking. I had my phone pressed between my ear and shoulder so I had my hands free. Next thing you know I absent mindedly walk into the restroom and start to pee. What the hell! Why did I do that? I am so mortified. I’m sure she heard the tinkling. :|

  149. Isben Takes Tea*

    It’s my one-month anniversary of discovering AAM and devouring daily. This week I was “easily” able to deal with a situation that would normally have knocked me out for two days with my anxiety (instead, I only had to bail on walking down the hall to my boss’s office four times) in a proactive way by framing it “What would AAM say?” (Talk directly with your boss/this isn’t personal/not a performance issue, but a managing issue, etc.)

    The issue was (of course) only 3% of the deal I thought it was and my boss was delighted that *I* approached *her* about it.

    Thanks Alison (and commenting community!)

    2. Vanishing Girl*

      I’ve had the same kind of results, so thank you Alison and the AAM community! You have helped me ask good follow-up questions to get good feedback, discuss medical accommodations with my supervisor, and generally just be a better coworker. I love this place.

  150. Just Ducky*

    I know some of you enjoy art as at least a hobby. What has been your experience selling artwork?

    I’m thinking about trying this. I’m good at what I do, and some people seem interested. It could be a good way to earn a little extra money. What do you think?

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I say go for it. What have you got to lose? I’ve sold a couple small things, done one commission, and have high hopes for the piece I’m working on right now.

      Also, one of my goals for this year is to get into a juried art show. An acquaintance of mine (we’re in a FB group for our shared style of art) got one of her pieces into a show, and it led to a sale of a different piece to a major collector in her area and an invitation to sell at a local shop/gallery.

    2. Tris Prior*

      My experience is that it is incredibly difficult sometimes, and super gratifying when it happens.

      What no one told me before I started getting serious about selling is, if you want to be successful you have to spend way more time marketing, than on making art. Getting your name out there, posting on social media, blogging. I totally am not a natural salesperson so this was really frustrating for me.

      1. AdjunctGal*

        My husband sells his pottery at craft fairs and in a sho. Occasionally, he puts work into a show. But he’s a professional artist;he’s trying to get back into high school teaching, but art has always been his focus. So I guess it’s a bit different.

        I say go for it. Just don’t rely on it as a main gig.

  151. BAS*

    I feel like kind of a jerk, but I am super excited that the coworker I couldn’t stand was let go this week. She was just so slow, inefficient, and could not problem solve. Also she compulsively cleared her throat every.single.minute. And hummed. And sang along to music whilst wearing headphones. And used obnoxious baby talk/diminutives. But mostly she just sucked at her job.

    And…I just was given her clients to “own”! Which is a step-up from the admin/general work I have been doing since I was hired on 7 months ago. I am really excited to grow my position and skills.

  152. Anna*

    Last week I was on a business trip with my boss. During an informal conversation over lunch I told her the area I want to expand in to. The area I am interested in had no openings at the time of the conversation, but the writing was on the wall that there might be an opening. She’s really happy with my work in my current position, and I really like my job. It’s creative and every day is different, but if I want to stay with this program (which I really like), I have to look at other areas to move in to. There is nowhere to go really in my area of work in this program. Cut to today when we had another meeting about stuff we learned during the business trip. It came up that the writing on the wall was correct and there is now an opening that I’m interested in. My boss, who has encouraged me to do extra training and such, basically said she’d rather I didn’t apply for this position because I don’t have enough experience supervising staff and right now the staff in that department is a bit rudderless and needs someone with more managerial experience. Okay, that’s fair. Then she mentioned that it’s likely there will be another managerial position opening soon, but couldn’t go in to detail, and she said I should apply for that one. I’m torn. Based on conversations with other people (who are in the department I was interested in) the upcoming opening might be in an area I know I am not interested in, but it is managerial and it would help me move along in my career. So I’m a bit torn. I’m grateful that even if the original opening isn’t a good fit, my boss believes in me enough to encourage me to look in other areas, but what if other potential opening is in an area I have little interest in? Do I get the experience I need and fulfill my desire to stick with this program for a bit? Or do I pass it up?

    1. Graciosa*

      If you have confidence in your boss’ judgment and professionalism, I would wait for the position she mentioned and suggested you should apply for.

      This wouldn’t be true if you thought she was stringing you along to keep you in role a little longer, or if she was too disconnected from what was going on in the company to have access to good information. Neither of these seem to be a concern here, so I’d be inclined to at least try trusting her judgment for a while.

      Part of the reason I say this is that managers do find out a lot of information we cannot discuss until it’s announced (new positions, restructurings, etc.). If your boss is trying to help you out, let her – an ally like this can be extremely helpful and make a huge difference in your career.

  153. GreatExpectations*

    We’re hiring for a position that is a mixture of administrative and technical skills. My boss’s expectations for what level of technical skills the candidate will bring to the table are way out of touch with what the position pays. Any tips on how to convey this to him diplomatically? I know there’s not much room in the budget to increase the salary (the position is on soft money). My sense is that we should hire someone with strong admin/organizational skills and train them on the technical side of things since we have good resources to provide that training support.

    1. AVP*

      There is a job like this at my company. Unfortunately, the only way that I found to deal with it was to post the job, stating the salary range *very clearly,* and then try to find the best candidates and be honest to my bosses about their limitations. I agree with you that eventually we found it was better to hire for attitude, organizational skills and learning ability, and be open to training them on technical components. We went through a lot of turnover to find the right people, though, and that was painful. At first my boss’s inclination was to hire people who seemed good on paper, and technically. The problem with that was while we found a few people who were willing tot make our low salary (it was the recession!) they were obviously not happy, not giving 100%, and left when they found a better option. For technical and organizational positions this kind of turnover is a nightmare…

      Honestly I think the best thing you can do to make less work for everyone involved is to be open about the salary range as early in the process as you can – in the ad, or at least in the phone screens. It does you the dual favor of letting the people you can’t afford opt out before you waste too much time on them, and encouraging the diamonds in the rough, who may have been too intimidated to apply because they don’t have all the skills, to get in touch. And really focus on making their their attitude is right, they’re fast learners (can you give them some kind of a test?), and good at the kind of thinking that will lead them to successfully pick up new technologies or programs.

    2. Steve G*

      very frustrating to watch indeed, I saw this twice as past co, and the most annoying part was that they still got good applicants, it seemed that people were afraid to negotiate, or maybe they were just riding out the interview process to the end and planned to negotiate then. One of these openings was taken by someone I thought was woefully underpaid, well that person turned out to be an ineffective substance abuser, and I totally realized after the fact that that was why they had job hopped for so long…they were eventually fired, unfortunately, because little work was getting done and the latenesses and awkward behavior as a result of substance abuse were becoming a daily interference.

      Have to say, as sad as I was for the person being fired, I couldn’t help but have a moment of satisfaction at the “told you so” moment to the cheap-a** Director of that Dept who always came up with these ridiculously low salaries. So he tried to pay $50K for a job that should have been paid $70K, and got about 25% of the work out of the person. Really dumb move and not worth the savings.

  154. Lionness*

    So, I’m hoping to get some advise for a friend.

    My friend, we’ll call her Wilma, applied for an internal position at her company. It was in a different department but she received a lot of encouragement to apply from the hiring committee. All three interview rounds went well, she received positive feedback, lots of follow up questions, and was feeling pretty good about things. Also, because of how hiring works at her company she was aware of the two other candidates that made it to the third round and was aware of (generally) their qualifications as compared to hers.

    She found out today she didn’t get the job. When she asked for feedback and what she could do to improve her chances for next time, she was told nothing. Literally, they said nothing. They told her they actually wanted to hire both her and the other person but were told they could only hire one, so they picked the other person.

    Suffice to say she is frustrated and feels like if they really wanted her they should have hired her. I know that it is possible that while they wanted her, there was just one little thing that made the other candidate slightly stronger. But I also understand her frustration in being told they wanted her to, were told only one, so they hired someone else….and there is nothing they can tell her about why it was them over her.

    Any advise on how I can try to help her view this in a more productive manner? Unfortunately, she really got her hopes up and is feeling pretty down right about now.

    2. Graciosa*

      This is not bad news.

      They liked her and wanted to hire her, but were not able to do so at this time. No, she didn’t get the job, but it’s hard to consider this a disaster.

      One of my now-colleagues was interviewed for at least three (maybe four) openings before being hired, with months passing between positions being available. She was repeatedly the second choice – until she was the first.

      Sometimes this just takes time.

      If there are truly no areas where your friend’s candidacy needs to be improved, she’s in a great position the next time an opening is available – but if one does become available, she should only apply if she is emotionally prepared to deal with the reality that you don’t have a job offer until you actually have a job offer.

  155. Steve G*

    Ugh ugh ugh……just took Excel Assessment online for a job at a top NY hospital, and I got like 7 out of 30 wrong, even though I have in depth experience with every item. I should have gotten 100%. They used a REALLY old Excel version, the program kept freezing, and you only got two chances to click before you failed the question, so when I clicked during the freezing, it made my answer wrong. I’m also baffled at how I got some of them wrong. I made about 20+ pivot tables per day every day for the last 6 years at work, because my jobs were 90% Excel analysis. How the heck did I get the answer wrong when it said to alter one of the pivot tables?! I am 100% sure I did what the question asked.

    Very, very frustrating, and I’m sure other candidates are going to have their skills rated at a lower level as well.

    There is no direct contact there yet unless I hunt someone down on Linkedin.

    1. Anna*

      You could poke around and try to find an HR email to just send a “I wanted to let you know” sort of email. Just a head’s up, your evaluation software isn’t compatible with newer browsers so it marks questions wrong when you’re trying to actually work in the program. Just thought you should know!

        1. Snoskred*

          Steve G – I don’t think that would come across as defensive or dramatic. In my opinion it is polite *and* important to let someone know when the tests they ask you to take don’t work the way they should.

          The person might not even know it is such an old version of Excel and they are probably not aware of the freezing up issues. My experience has been that the people who organise these things rarely test themselves on them, so they are unlikely to know about any issues unless you give them a heads up. :)

          Anyway, I would speak up. :)

    2. ZSD*

      I’m sorry! I had something similar happen once. The test I took assumed that people only used the icon buttons to do things, so when I tried doing something with a menu, it told me I was wrong.

    3. Nobody*

      That seems like a terrible way to test Excel skills! I am very good with Excel, but I sometimes have to poke around a little to figure out how to do what I want to do, and two clicks might not be enough. How frustrating. I bet you’re right, though, that everyone else will have the same problems, so you might still end up at the top.

      1. Steve G*

        I got conditional formatting wrong. You know that conditional formatting is now under the “home” ribbon. Any idiot could find it. I forgot where it used to be, and I definitely forgot the 2003 version of Excel! Argh.

        1. Ruffingit*

          If they’re using a 2003 version to test candidates, you might think about whether you want to work there anyway. They probably have 1990s computers to work on.

    4. Xarcady*

      Ugh. I think I’ve taken the same test with the same version of Excel. I tend to use keyboard shortcuts wherever possible, and the instructions for the test *said* you could use them, but in reality, you could not. So I took forever trying to find things in the stupid ribbon and ended with a much lower score than I should have.

      It’s very frustrating and I feel for you.

  156. HRNewbie*

    How to you define the line between candor with your boss and insubordination? I have this come up with employees a lot (in HR). Supervisor gets a lot of push-back and finds it insubordinate, employee doesn’t realize where reasonable discussion ends. I feel like “I know it when I see it”, but explaining it is difficult. Thoughts? Thank you!

    1. Delyssia*

      Just from the description here, it sounds like supervisor needs to make a clear attempt to cut it off (ideally after hearing out the employee) by saying something along the lines of, “I understand your concerns, but the decision has been made. At this point, I need you to [follow the new process/whatever]. Can you do that?”

      Any push-back after that would potentially be insubordination, but without the supervisor clearly spelling out that the discussion is over and the work needs to be done, it seems a lot harder to draw a distinction.

  157. Modesty Blaise*

    How can I be less afraid to ask my boss questions?! I feel like a nervous wreck when I need to ask him things and he is not a bad guy at all (just a bit hard to “read” and I’m someone who reads TOO MUCH into things because of anxiety).

    I’ve been putting off asking about an opportunity at work, because I’m just terrified that he’ll say no. Honestly, if he says no I cannot imagine anything awful happening to me. I’ll be in the exact same role I am now and that’s fine. How can I get the courage to ask though? Is there some sort of script I can use when asking the boss questions? Lol, I feel so embarrassed that I can’t calmly speak to my boss!

    1. Graciosa*

      Unfortunately, the way you do this is with practice.

      I wish I knew of some sort of magic trick to avoid telling you to just do it – repeatedly – until it no longer bothers you – but I don’t.

      Good luck.

  158. AdjunctGal*

    Is anyone familiar with public school hiring practices? Many jobs are on a website called Schoolspring, which has the benefit of contacting applicants when their applications have been opened, reviewed, and even can help with scheduling interviews. The problem is that so many schools won’t even open all of their applications! So my husband will apply to jobs, but then all of sudden get an email that he wasn’t hired, even though his application was never opened in the first place. Why solicit applications when no one is actually going to look at them?

    1. Elsajeni*

      It could be that the position isn’t opening up after all — since there’s a limited hiring season and not filling the position in time is not an option, it’s pretty common for schools to solicit applicants for tentative positions like “Ms. Smith might retire this year, or she might wait a year or two,” or even for positions they might have the budget for but they aren’t totally sure yet. (Although I always thought more highly of districts that put “Anticipated Opening” on the listing or categorized it as a pool listing, rather than implying there’s a specific position that’s actually available.) Or it could be that they went with an internal applicant already teaching in the district; a lot of districts have policies that give internal applicants priority.

      1. Sara*

        Yeah, I also had a couple applications to “anticipated openings” last year that eventually changed status to “job cancelled,” which I assumed had to do with the opening not actually opening.

    2. Sara*

      I’ve had this experience with Schoolspring as well. My assumption is that employers are able to open/view the application and then have the option to (a) reach out to the candidate, (b) not hire the candidate, or (c) take no further action at that time, with Option B resulting in a “not hired” email and Option C resulting in an “opened/viewed” email. This could be completely wrong, but the variety of emails I’ve gotten from Schoolspring applications makes me think there might be something of this nature going on on the employer side. I’ve definitely had applications there that never got opened, though – one position I applied for last year stayed in “submitted” status for six months until I finally withdrew it.

      I had much better luck obtaining interviews when I applied directly to districts. I know that the district where I currently work (as well as the huge urban district next door) both maintain applicant pools, in which you submit all the relevant materials including a general cover letter and they make those available to all of the appropriate schools in the district (i.e. whatever schools your license would allow you to teach at). I only got one interview through Schoolspring last year, but I had six (including the one that landed me my current job) from district-based applications. (I also applied to a few districts that use applicant tracking systems other than Schoolspring, but had no interviews from those. However, those were districts that weren’t quite as good a fit for me [which would have been obvious from my cover letter], so I don’t chalk that up to the application process specifically.)

      Good luck to your husband!

  159. BRR*

    Rather late, but as I’m on a pre-PIP (and it sucks), I want to see if anybody has any stories of passing one. Or just your stories at all about them from any angle. I am job hunting as well.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I’m thinking of two really successful PIPs I’ve seen. In both cases, the person on the PIP had someone in their corner. For one, it was a manager who was willing to really spend a lot of time coaching and supporting her. For the other, it was another colleague who the person on the PIP actively sought out to get support because the manager was stretched too thin.

      So based on that, I’d say: do everything you can to find someone who is willing to shepherd you through this process, give you clear and frequent feedback, and help you map out what it will take to get from where you are now to over the bar set by the PIP. Good luck!

    2. fposte*

      I know Elizabeth West did, and she talks about it in a few different posts–see if you can find that by searching (I think she’s abroad again and probably won’t see this).

      1. BRR*

        Thanks fposte. I feel like I need to send you an edible arrangement for being so much help.

  160. High School Drama*

    After years of reading this blog and reading about how people just need to be direct, I decided to finally be direct with a coworker about her behavior towards me and a few of our other coworkers. Well, she didn’t take it too well, and now she’s acting like we’re back in high school.

    I work in a teapot factory/store. This woman, who I’ll call Jessica, is a cashier. She takes in orders from customers, and we do work for them right then and there. Our boss and owner of the business, Jeff, also works right with us and sometimes takes care of customers’ orders. A customer came in yesterday to pick up his teapot order, and something was amiss with it. Jessica went and spoke with Jeff about it. Jeff made some adjustments in the computer and turned the order over to me to redo it with his corrections. I did and then passed it back out to Jessica. A few minutes later, Jessica is yelling over the counter at me, “Lilly, that is not what the customer wanted! He wanted it the way we originally had it but blah blah blah….” (To be honest, I tuned out what she had to say at that point for her yelling at me.) I told her she better talk to Jeff because it was a problem between them.

    Anyway, I was po-ed about her yelling at me – in front of a customer and for just yelling at me. I didn’t know what the problem was and I didn’t appreciate being chewed out in front of a customer. So a little while later during lunch (Jessica and I take our lunch at the same time but not to socialize), I took her aside and told her I didn’t appreciate her yelling at me, that it was unprofessional to point out another employee’s mistake (or in this case a mistake based on some miscommunication between her and Jeff) in front of customers (let alone yelling out that there was a mistake at all in front of a crowd of customers) and that she needs to stop giving me and my other teapot makers hell in general. It’s bad enough we get it from the customers; we don’t need it from her. Well, she immediately went into denial, saying that what she knows in her head is right, and she did nothing wrong. Then, from what Angela, another teapot maker, said, Jessica went straight to Jeff to complain about what I said, saying that she was sorry if she offended him and asked if she did anything wrong. Jeff allegedly denied knowing that anything happened. Jeff never said anything to me about what Jessica said. Jessica never apologized to me.

    Now, Angela came in today and told me what went down on Facebook last night. I’m not friends with my coworkers on there, but apparently quite a few of them are with each other. Lynn, a teapot part manager, who had walked in on me talking to Jessica, went home last night to post on Facebook a video of an animated chick singing a song “leave me alone or send me home because I’m going to whip someone’s ass.” She tagged most of the coworkers in it that she’s friends with, including Jessica. Only Jessica made the slightest reference to me, referencing the conversation and asked “Who the hell is she?” Angela believes Lynn took my side because everyone else would love to tell off Jessica; she believes that Jessica is too oblivious to understand that the video is against her. I don’t know. Lynn carpools with Jessica so she only got Jessica’s viewpoint. Lynn is neither Jessica nor my boss, but I don’t like the idea of her taking a conversation she overheard and poked fun at it on Facebook, regardless of whose side she’s on.

    Today, Jessica didn’t say one word to me. She refused to bring anything to my attention which is a part of her job. She kept bugging the other teapot maker and Jeff. I was surprised Jeff didn’t say anything to her.

    But seriously, I thought I left high school years ago. I sometimes wonder if 9th grade was just the beginning. Thank God my full-time summer job is starting soon. It’s just annoying because I wanted to handle it on my own without going to the manager (Tell Jessica to stop criticizing me in front of customers!) and let her know I didn’t appreciate Jessica’s tone towards me. But then Jessica runs to tattle and now the whole thing blows up on social media behind my back by someone else (!). I know I should let it run off my back, but why can’t people leave high school behind?

    There’s high school drama in another department too. It has infected the whole business. I can’t wait to find better work!

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      Wow! Sorry you have to deal with the drama. It’s definitely unprofessional, unhelpful, and just plain mean.

      At least you practiced being direct; even if it went poorly, you have experience to build on. Good luck!

      1. High School Drama*

        In one respect, I’m glad I had the guts to be direct. But on the other hand, her reaction, especially running back to the boss, almost validated my hesitation for speaking up. I’m just dumbfounded over the entire situation because I can’t believe grown adult women (Lynn and Jessica) will act like this. I’m trying not to lower myself to this level these two women portray, but at the same time, Lynn’s posting of that video makes me wonder who she is really making fun of in this situation.

        1. Ruffingit*

          Does it matter who she’s making fun of? One thing that has helped me quite a bit in the work world is putting up a wall between drama and me. When Angela came to tell you what went down on Facebook, the best response is “I don’t care to hear this. I don’t want to participate in who’s saying what about whom and whose side so and so is on.” Because honestly, it doesn’t matter. In some cases, ignorance is bliss. There is nothing this information is going to do for you except add fuel to the fire. I hope you can get out of this place soon.

          1. Isben Takes Tea*

            I agree–it’s hard to adopt, but the best work relations advice I was ever given was “Let them own their crazy.” If a coworker drips drama, refuse to pick any of it up. I still slip up sometimes, but it helps me spiral into “What did *I* do wrong/how can *I* fix this?”

          2. High School Drama*

            I understand where you are coming from and I agree. It just seems though in this place you cannot hide from the drama; it will find you because the coworker have such a high school mentality as they seem to live on the drama and gossip (or they make it up). And seeing how Jeff can turn his mood in any direction in any moment, in a situation like this, I would never put it past him to put the blame on me for saying something to Jessica to begin with. That’s why I’m partially concerned about Lynn’s reasoning behind her post. No matter how much of a “wallflower” you are it will find you here.

    2. Kate M*

      Yeah, she sounds really pleasant to work with. I’m sorry. :(

      One thing to maybe consider, though, is only bringing up what is relevant at the time? Like you definitely should have said “please don’t yell at me in front of customers like you just did, it’s unprofessional, makes us look bad, etc.” But bringing in all her past actions (“she needs to stop giving me and my other teapot makers hell in general”) might have been a step too far. I’m sure it was warranted – but it just reminds me of couples who start fighting about one issue, and then bring up things that happened 6 months ago that were never resolved, instead of discussing the one issue at hand.

      Maybe, if the situation happens again, only address what just occurred. And then if it happens a second time, say “remember talking about this last time? Can you respond ___ way in the future?” And then if it happens a third time point out that it’s becoming a pattern and that it needs to change, and maybe go to your boss for help. Being direct is great, but being too assertive and throwing everything in her face that she’s ever done wrong will put anyone on the defensive, especially someone who is prone to be that way in the first place.

      It’s very likely that none of these will work with your coworker, and she does sound ridiculous. I just think being direct in doses sometimes works better than bottling everything up and exploding (might be projecting a little here, because that’s what happens to me sometimes, haha).

      1. High School Drama*

        Truthfully, I don’t remember how I worded it to her. Plus, she kept interrupting me. As soon as she would hear a word she didn’t like, she would jump in and be like ” And what? Huh? I’m not doing anything wrong.” I do remember using the plural “we” and “us” in reference to us teapot makers, but I know I didn’t reference anything specific in the past, but I did reference how she did yell at me earlier in the day. Nonetheless, it’s a good point to remember. I know that two other teapot makers – Angela included – have already called her out on her behavior, but they tend to call her out more in the moment whereas I took her aside later on in a more private situation. When she gets called out in the moment, she shuts up, but she apparently has made it a big spectacle with me. I would have thought she would have been a bit better since I didn’t chew her out in front of everyone like the others.

        She also had the habit of calling me by my name’s shortened version that I absolutely loathe. I told her on her first day what my name was and she immediately shortened it. I told her “no.” She retorted with a “Well I guess I have been told.” But she continued. Then one day she goes, “I hate to be called Jess. Everyone calls me Jessica.” And we all looked at her and asked, “Then why do you call Lilly ‘Lil?'” I had to be direct with her several times on that. Once she said that she doesn’t like to be called Jess, I was getting ready to call her that every time she would call me Lil.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Real adults do not deal with work problems on Facebook with third parties.
      Real adults go to each other and talk things over.
      Your frustration here is, in part, your lack of control over what happens on Facebook. Tell yourself that you cannot control what they say on Facebook. If they wanted to actually solve the problem they would be talking to you personally and at work.

      I do agree about going from one specific instance to a general observation- that seems to ignite people every time. Put that to one side, for a minute. Any time you call someone on a behavior or an action, expect back lash. This is a good rule to live by. I have to chuckle because I went as far as figuring out the bigger the back lash the better I hit my targeted goal in the conversation. In other words, if you were nothing to this other person, there would be no back lash. So you do have power in this situation but it’s not immediately apparent except for the size of her reaction.

      What to do? Continue on. You made your point. You hit the target. Go about your work day and let them do whatever it is they do. While they are standing around analyzing this whole event, you are continuing to produce work. At some point they will see that your have not broken stride, you are continuing to work and they will realize that they have to work also. It may take a little bit, keep yourself busy and ignore the high school behavior.

  161. Trixie*

    Question regarding contract work for a 10-hour/week part-time telecommute position. Posting is clear of what’s required as far as schedule, travel, etc. As my availability changes with a full-position, I’m curious how the contract would be handled. I’d wish to continue with it but wondered what the repercussions are of “reneging” in this situation. Legal obligations, financial consequences, etc.

  162. Ruffingit*

    Fill in the blank. My job sucks because______________

    Had a rough day today, need to feel better. Misery loves company so tell me why your job sucks. And if you love your job, then please just move along. I don’t need to hear it ;)

    1. Delyssia*

      Pithy answer: Because crap rolls downhill, and I’m the one at the bottom.

      More detailed version: I work in a job in with hard deadlines (delivering even one minute late counts the same as not delivering at all). I’m the one who puts the pieces together, but I’m dependent on other people to get me their pieces. When they run late getting their pieces to me, I’m the one scrambling to put it all together in time, at an acceptable level of quality.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Boss: “Crap rolls down hill.”
        Husband: “But the stench drifts UPWARD.”

    2. Pops*

      My job sucks because it’s actually pretty awesome, but my hours are about to be halved for the summer. And I’m pretty sure I’m getting so few hours because I was not that busy this semester, only because I was on the slow shift. I wasn’t even at 15 hours as it was.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Too much work that all ABSOLUTELY HAS TO BE DONE RIGHT NOW. And, of course, there aren’t enough people to do the job even if we got to keep to relatively normal timelines instead of everything-is-an-emergency timelines.

    4. TheExchequer*

      I get all the work, find ways to do all the work, and not only don’t get paid more, but also don’t get paid on time.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        And the state congress hates us and the computer program hates us and, oh yeah, the furnace also hates us.

        I’m thinking it’s a conspiracy.

  163. Jen RO*

    Just a rant. It’s Saturday morning and I’m answering emails, because my brain decided to wake me up at 8.30 with work thoughts, and I’d rather get them out of the way and enjoy the rest of the weekend.

    So I start answering a guy who pointed out an omission in one of our documents. The document had looked fishy to me from day 1, but the two people who wrote that bit said that they had confirmed the information twice. (We wrote something like “You can now use vanilla handles for your chocolate teapots”, and didn’t include any details on how to install the vanilla handle.) Because the matter was pretty technical and I didn’t understand it well enough, I chose to trust my reports and didn’t follow up myself. Well, guess what, we needed those instructions! In the meantime (2-3 weeks ago), I had suggested some changes for the existing content, so I figured it’s a good opportunity for my expert to confirm those changes as well. Lo and behold… the document is unchanged. My feedback is probably lying there ignored on my team member’s hard drive and he never bothered incorporating it. Ugh. And it’s not the first time this has happened!

    I’m pissed off and conflicted. Is it my responsibility as team lead to follow up on everything that sounds dodgy to me? Will I be undermining my team if I do that? Is it still undermining if they have proven they are unreliable? Is it reasonable to be annoyed that they are not picking up these nuances (“the client will want to know how to install the vanilla handle; maybe it’s complicated and the other department simply can’t be bothered telling us the details, so I need to push”)? I’ve got 5+ years of experience and they have about a year.

    And I know it is reasonable to be pissed off when I say “please incorporate this feedback and make sure you don’t forget like last time”, he says “yes, I will do it today”, and it’s 3 weeks later and fuck all has been changed! Grrr. He’s in for an unpleasant conversation when I get back to work on Monday…

    1. AnotherFed*

      Following up on everything is just going to be impossible. I’m struggling with delegating and calling things “good enough” with a couple of my reports, too.

      That said, now that you have had a couple of instances of him not incorporating your feedback, you do need to check his work more often, but you also need to work with him to fix the problem. Start by telling him you’ve noticed a trend of this and that it isn’t acceptable, then ask him what he is going to do to fix it so that comments/feedback always get incorporated. Work with him to build some structure, ranging from giving you an outline at the beginning to make sure he has all the topics he needs to some sort of comment tracking spreadsheet he can use to make sure he incorporates every comment from every reviewer.

      If the problem is that he’s ignoring comments rather than forgetting them, just isn’t willing to take feedback, or seems hopeless unable to remember things, then it’s probably time for a PIP unless this is a small enough piece of his job that you can have him do just other things.

      1. AnotherFed*

        And to commiserate with you – I have the guy who needs to write an outline (and have me review and correct it) for absolutely everything, even the simplest paper, to be able to keep his writing vaguely related to the intended topic. Some of his documents before we got to this process were so bad I couldn’t even tell what they were about and I was the one who’d given him the task… think chocolate teapot test report became vanilla lime mojito recipes.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would ask my team if the instructions were clear or did they need additional info. If I felt the instructions were not clear, I would directly ask them if they could make enough out of the instructions so that the instructions were useful to them. Yeah, I would feel it is my responsibility to get them what they need to do their job. BUT, if Lisa ordinarily wanders over the other department and asks her good friend Sue about what to do, then I would let Lisa do that and not intervene unless Lisa said there were further difficulties. I would still talk directly to Lisa and the rest to make sure that they had gotten the info and things were going well.

  164. TheExchequer*

    My paycheck was non visible (for the second time this year and the second time in my career! I’m starting to wonder if it’s me!) when I left work on Friday. I was feeling a little bad about leaving my current employer before a full year of working for them. Bad feelings gone!

  165. Dr. Doll*

    I’m very late, I know, but maybe someone will start at the bottom. I just applied for a job that it’s no exaggeration to say that I am probably the best person in a 300 mile radius for. But much to my surprise given my field and the status of the position, the application process consisted of uploading my cv to an auto populated form. No cover letter, no statement, just the cv. If HR thinks my qualifications are a match, they’ll call. I was flabbergasted. This is Not How You Do Things in my area.

    I wasn’t sure if I wanted the job when did applied, and now I am even less sanguine. But if I don’t get a call, I can conclusively state that their process is not good!

    1. TheExchequer*

      Online applications are the suck. I’ve only seen good ones like twice ever. It’s not necessarily representative of the company.

  166. Event Planner*

    Fellow event planners – I’m a CMP and CSEP, and I’m looking for companies that hire meeting planners on a contract basis. I currently do events for two, but I’m trying to add more so I have more opportunities. Do you know of any companies? I’m not looking to be an ETD, but more like the evening dinners that pharmaceutical companies put on. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. When I search for ‘contract meeting planner’, the links are all about legal contracts, not contract work.

  167. N.J.*

    This is probably a little late to post, but I need some followup advice to a post I made on last week’s open thread. A job I applied to and was one of three finalists for ended up choosing a candidate a month or so ago. This individual has already quit or resigned. I have not received a rejection letter. I only know that someone was hired and has already left through a posted news article and through s professional contact who works with the organization. I have sent a followup email since last week reiterating my interest, letting the hiring commitee head know how much I rnjoyed learning more about the organization’s plans during the interview process etc. I closed the email with eating to continue the conversation if I was still under consideration. Since last week the group has re-posted the position with a new application date. I have also had s chance to speak more with the individusl I know who some times works with the group. He let me know he hadn’t heard anything negative about the previous candidate pool (including me) and a bit more about the internal group dynamics. He is encouraging me to reapply. I am a bit unsure though, as I have not heard back at all from the group, either to my followup email last week or even just as a natural step in the process to either send me a rejection or encourage previous final candidates to apply. Thoughts?

    1. AnotherFed*

      You’ve sent multiple emails, so I wouldn’t follow up that way again – maybe the hiring manager was just unexpectedly out of the office, or maybe they just suck at responding. Either way, I would reapply and mention in your cover letter that you’ve applied and interviewed before, really liked whatever interesting things you learned about the company/job/people/etc., and then tie the normal things about why you’d be awesome to anything extra you learned the first go round.

  168. question for managers*

    In error, a friend posted a topless picture of herself on facebook, post-mastectomy reconstruction. These types of photos are allowed on facebook, though she had intended to post it in a private group rather than her main profile page. She took it down within a matter of 15 minutes. However, in the time that it was up, one of her coworkers saw it and took it back to their manager. My friend was disciplined for her actions.

    Would you have taken the same approach?

  169. Belvis Tarl*

    Hi, all! Never asked a question here before but a long-time fan of this page and its readers, so hopefully I can get some insight into two issues I’m having.

    I’m currently looking for a new job, as I’ve excelled in my current role (enough to garner awards at company meetings, the responsibility of an entirely different position, etc.) but not to the tune of a raise or title change. I am wondering how to phrase the fact that I was offered and accepted more responsibility as the company’s Teapot Coordinator in my resume. I have “Was offered higher responsibility as the company’s Teapot Coordinator” but it sounds awkward, in my opinion. What else can/should I use, or is this fine?

    Also, because my responsibilities are being hidden from our corporate office, they have not processed a title change. How do I put this on my resume? I want to make it look like I started off in one role and ended in another, which is true, but if an employer does a reference check, they will see my title as Administrative Assistant and not Teapot Coordinator, and I don’t want them to think I’m lying. Any suggestions?

    Thank you so much, readers! You’re awesome!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Belvis, I’m going to suggest you post this on this Friday’s open thread, since I don’t think people will see it here on this older one!

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