open thread – May 29, 2015

by Alison Green on May 29, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,522 comments }

{ 1,522 comments… read them below }

  1. Christy*

    Can we please discuss the Ask Amy question from today? Here’s the question:

    DEAR AMY: I recently started working for a new company in a pretty heavily male-dominated field. On certain e-mails sent to large groups of co-workers, I’ve noticed that my colleagues address the e-mail to “Gentlemen.”

    There are clearly at least two females cc’d on most of these e-mails.

    I feel as though the e-mails are not addressed to me with this greeting; I believe that it is old-fashioned and offensive. Do you have thoughts on how to address this without ruffling feathers or coming off the wrong way? — No Gentleman

    I totally want the AAM take on this question. How do you respond to this?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I would probably reply in a lighthearted tone – “Does this include me even though I’m a lady?”

      1. Retail Lifer*

        I would be so tempted to reply with “Was I accidentally copied on this seeing as how I’m a lady?”

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Yes! Just start all your emails addressed only to “Ladies.” Wait for someone to point it out. Raise eyebrow saucily at the irony.

            1. Mallory Janis Ian*

              Ha. Yes, go forth and do this, and then report back to us, that we might laugh. :-)

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Basically, I don’t think there’s a good way to fix this, and I don’t think it’s the hill to die on.

      It’s almost certain that the sender knows that some recipients are female, but is trying to find a form of address to include everyone. Their choice was poor, but there really aren’t many good choices when addressing a somewhat random group of people. There are certainly better choices, ones that wouldn’t leave anyone feeling excluded, but I can’t think of any that I’d love to use or even like.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        How is addressing a mixed-sex group as “gentleman” “trying to find a form of address to include everyone”?

        And there are plenty of terms you can use: “Hi colleagues/team/everyone/all” etc.

                1. Mallory Janis Ian*

                  My boss gets emails from a colleague in Malaysia, and one form of address I’d never seen before is, he refers to my boss as “your goodself”. As in, “we very much look forward to a visit by your goodself in August”; “if your goodself finds the accommodations acceptable, we will book them on your behalf.” Not applicable here, but “good gentlepersons” just reminded me of it.

          2. Artemesia*

            y’all actually suffices. It is the south’s one great contribution to American culture – a way to gracefully embrace everyone without sexism and without calling them ‘you guys.’

        2. Natalie*

          Or our lawyers’ style, which is “Ladies and Gentlemen” on everything. I’m fairly sure they’ve done it one things addressed to one person.

        3. The Cosmic Avenger*

          It’s probably trying and failing, but I think they were trying. And the ones you chose sound more informal to me, I was trying to think of something closer in tone to “Gentlemen”, and the only thing could come up with is “Dear colleagues”, which is probably what I would have used if I were ever that formal. But addressing it isn’t likely to change much, IMO.

          1. Retail Lifer*

            This would bring out the femi-nazi in me and I’d bring it up every time it happened.

            I would take UKAnon’s idea and reply all with “Ladies.”

          2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            But seriously,where do you get the idea that they’re trying to be inclusive? What would not trying to be inclusive look like?

            Anyway, this is not that complicated. “Ladies and gentlemen.” Done.

            1. afiendishthingy*

              “Hello WASP guys named Joe”?

              No, I’m with you. It’s weird and really simple to change and I really would reply with “I’m not a gentleman, think you cc’ed me by mistake” because I bet they don’t really realize what they were doing and will change once it is – but I think they deserve a little snark.

          3. Artemesia*

            NO one who begins missives with ‘Gentlemen’ is trying and failing to be inclusive.

      2. Arjay*

        “Hi, everyone,”

        If NASCAR can figure out that “Drivers, start your engines” is more appropriate and inclusive, these guys ought to be able to figure it out too.

        2. Gandalf the Nude*

          +1!

          Most of what I’ve heard about NASCAR is that the organization (if not the fan base) really is making an effort to be more inclusive.

          1. Mike C.*

            Motorsports is really, really primed for direct competition between men and women. The engineering, design, strategy and pit wall is an obvious place, but even as far as drivers are concerned, once you meet a certain level of general fitness (aka can run a marathon or similar) the philological differences between men and women really don’t matter once you get in the car.

            /Now maybe NASCAR can work on making the racing more interesting… ;)

            1. Gene*

              SCCA Autocross has direct competition in the Open classes, yet still have the Ladies classes. The main reason is marketing, but I’ve been looking at results from the Nationals for years and the women still don’t post the same times that the men do, frequently even in the same car (eliminating the equipment variable).

              I think there’s a Psych paper in this if anyone has the guts to do it and face the backlash that would ensue.

            3. JMW*

              I would disagree with this a little bit. Most of motor racing has an endurance component to it, and the G forces in most of motor racing require strength and stamina to a degree that men, in general, have a physiological advantage. The physical training drivers do in most of motorsports is quite intense.

              I agree with you on the NASCAR part, though, and I will be greatly relieved when all of motor racing does away with pit girls, which has started to happen recently (yea, Monaco!) Apparently the F1 track here in the US is contractually obligated to supply pit girls (thank you, Bernie Ecclestone). They will be hearing from me. Think they should be replaced by go karters of both genders who would salivate at the opportunity to hold a grid pole next to an F1 car.

              1. Melissa*

                I think that’s why Mike C said “once you reach a certain level of fitness.”

      3. Jennifer*

        “Everybody.”
        “Team.”
        “Y’all.”
        “Gang”
        “Ladies and gentlemen.”

        I could think of five just now. It’s not that hard, though.

        3. Kimberlee, Esq.*

          I’ve used “Dear Justice League” and “Hello Super Friends!” from time to time.

          2. Connie-Lynne*

            Our company’s legal team has their conference room labeled “Hall of Justice.”

        4. Connie-Lynne*

          When I was a team lead (I am a lady) and my team (3/6 ladies) would get email addressed this way, first offenders got a polite private email with a list of alternatives like the above.

          Second offenders got a (still private) email asking if they specifically meant to address only the junior members of the team, or would they accept answers from the women as well?

          1. ITPuffNStuff*

            this is excellent. criticize in private, praise in public. you sound like a great lead to work for.

            1. Connie-Lynne*

              Thanks. We had a lot of cross-cultural issues going on where I was pretty sure that people using “Gentlemen” or “Gents” were non-native English speakers using what they were sure was formal, but appropriate, business language.

              Most people responded with thanks.

              It was definitely rarely if ever repeated by anyone but native English speakers, so I didn’t feel bad about the snarky second followup.

      4. JB (not in Houston)*

        I usually agree with you, but today I disagree. I agree there’s probably not a good way to fix this, but I don’t agree that the sender almost certainly used “gentlemen” because he was trying to find a form of address to include everyone. I cannot come up with any explanation under which the word “gentlemen” could in anyway be construed to be gender neutral. “Guys” has arguably become gender neutral in at least some parts of the country, but not “gentlemen.” There are other choices that might be awkward, or overly-formal or overly-casual, but would at least be inclusive and therefore are better options.

        To me this sounds like someone who thinks that using this kind of address ought to be non-offensive because they “didn’t mean it to be offensive,” and ipso facto it isn’t.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          I agree with almost everything you said, but I still think that this exclusionary term was used by someone privileged who has never been excluded by a majority, and so did not see the term as excluding the women because, as you said, that is simply not how they meant it. In fact, I’d bet that excluding people didn’t cross the author’s mind even momentarily when picking that term. Although I’m a white male, I am a member of enough other marginalized/minority groups that I am sensitive to that sort of thing, but I have seen many other white males to whom the idea of being left out because of a demographic attribute literally just never occurs.

          1. Mabel*

            Regarding

            In fact, I’d bet that excluding people didn’t cross the author’s mind even momentarily when picking that term.

            I don’t want to start a whole thing on this, but that’s a big part of what sexism (and racism) is – having the privilege to be oblivious. I’m only mentioning it because you said you’re sensitive to that sort of thing, and this is an area where you could learn more.

            1. JB (not in Houston)*

              Exactly. If the fact that he was excluding some didn’t cross his mind, that’s still a problem.

          2. Nashira*

            I think it’s doing a service to teach members of privileged majorities to stop excluding people due to deliciousness. They’re not terrible people for not knowing, after all. But they need to be taught, so that minority members stop getting told we don’t belong.

            This is an issue I feel strongly about, as a woman who’s going into IT and who hangs out with gamers.

            3. JMW*

              That was too funny! I’ve read that sentence three times and laughed out loud each time!

            4. Monodon monoceros*

              Oh no, I’m in a serious meeting and just happened to read this…I should have known better than to read AAM during this meeting! Must leave the room for a minute…

        2. ITPuffNStuff*

          i wouldn’t completely write off the sender’s intentions, whether good or ill, as unimportant.

          if corrected, and the sender’s reply is “i’m so sorry; i didn’t mean to exclude anyone. it won’t happen again.”, that is likely to produce a very different set of feelings than “i know; i deliberately excluded women, and i don’t care how they feel”.

          people make mistakes. labeling a fallible human being as “offensive” will immediately put them on the defensive, and that posture is usually completely avoidable. the problem can be easily addressed without making the sender feel like A Bad Person.

      6. LBK*

        I think even “guys” would be better since that has (for better or worse) become generally accepted as a gender neutral group term. But I’ve never heard gentlemen used in that way.

        1. Jill 2*

          There was a whole argument about this word on a thread here recently, so I don’t think “guys” will get a pass.

          1. Anx*

            Same.

            This is a very tough one for me to shake in my speech. I grew up in the NYC metro area and in certain contexts it registers as completely gender neutral in my brain. But I can understand how it can be misgendering.

            1. Melissa*

              I’m a woman and I use “guys” as a gender-neutral term, too – I grew up in the NYC metro area (until I was about 12 years old) so I think that might have something to do with it. I’ve been trying to eliminate and when writing, I typically tend to use “y’all” (I spent the other half of my childhood in Atlanta, lol) or “everyone.” But when speaking, it’s difficult to remember not to use “guys!”

    4. Joey*

      I wouldn’t reply via email, Id make an underhanded joke about it the next time you see the offender.

    6. lawsuited*

      So many people use “guys” as a universal term to solve this problem, that I now refer to my male peers at work as “gurls”. As in, “Hey gurl, are we going to Starbucks are what?” because of

        2. Kas*

          As a heads-up: I’m a woman, and I feel excluded by “dudes” as a term of address

          2. Connie-Lynne*

            I’ll tolerate “guys” especially if it is part of “you guys” but oh hell no for “dude.”

            1. Kas*

              Based on my lived experience, I am not a dude, and I do not feel included in a group referred to as “dudes”.

      3. Lionness*

        Did you know that the term “guys” didn’t actually originally refer to men but was in reference to Guy Fawkes’ effigy?

    7. Diddly*

      This used to happen in a formal way at my old workplace. Letters were always addressed ‘Dear Sirs’ about 80% of the office were female… Quite easy to stick in /Madams there.

      1. Dr. Ruthless*

        I was recently hiring, and anyone who addressed their cover letter “Dear Sirs” got their application immediately and unceremoniously thrown in the garbage.

        1. ITPuffNStuff*

          is it conceivable you missed out on the benefit of some good candidates, and those candidates likewise missed out on the benefit of a reminder about gender presumption?

    8. BananaPants*

      Bear in mind that there may be language and cultural issues at play before flying off the handle.

      I work in a male-dominated company/field and am often included on group emails that are addressed to “Gentlemen” or “Dear Sirs”. Virtually all of the time these emails are sent by non-native English speakers who may not be aware of gender-based naming conventions and have never spoken to me personally or on the phone (i.e. they probably have no clue that I’m female). It’s mildly annoying, but understandable – if I can’t tell based on name if the sender is male or female, it’s likely that they can’t tell from reading my name that I’m female, either.

      If someone based in my office in the U.S., who personally knows everyone on the distribution list, sends out a group email addressed to “Gentlemen”, he’s likely to have a brief chat with his manager about using more inclusive means of address.

      1. Beezus*

        Yup, I’ve worked with non-native English speakers, and on more than one occasion have received emails addressed to Mr. Beezus Lastname, even though my real first name is clearly feminine to anyone familiar with common Western names. I just shrug it off – they don’t know, and there have been times when I’ve made gender assumptions based on names and have been off, too. (I can’t shake the habit of subconsciously assuming that most names ending in -y and -ie sounds are feminine.)

      2. JB (not in Houston)*

        Nothing in the letter suggested that the people doing this were non-native speakers. And also, nothing in the OP’s letter suggested she was “flying off the handle.” Quite the opposite, actually.

      3. Connie-Lynne*

        This is why my first mail is a suggestion of alternatives, and all the corrective mails, even the snarky ones, are private.

      4. No Longer Passing By*

        Part of the problem is that in some languages, the addition of even 1 make necessitates the usage of male pronouns. For example, group of 99 females = usage of female pronouns. Add 1 male to that group, bringing the total to 100 persons including that 1 male = male pronouns in referring to the group. So I can see non-native English speakers having this problem.

        However, the OP didn’t say that’s what’s going on. Plus she didn’t identify industry but I’m going to guess something that’s historically both male-dominated and formal due to the opener used. OP, why don’t you use your industry or position or project name. For example, Counselors, or Medical Personnel, or Chocolate Cover Team. Perhaps if you use an alternate greeting, others will follow?

    9. Solid B*

      I use “All” for addressing emails.
      I would address the issue by asking the person if you were meant to be included on the original and (if necessary) state that it was not clear from the original email.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        How about just “Good Morning” or “Good Afternoon”? Otherwise, I like “Everyone” or “All Concerned.”

    10. That Marketing Chick*

      I think you’re getting your panties in a bunch over nothing. I’m sure that nothing is meant by it, and it has no bearing on anything. I would file this under “get a REAL problem”. If that’s the worst thing that’s bugging you, you’ve got a great job!

      1. De (Germany)*

        Gosh, I hate this line of reasoning.

        Yes, it has a bearing on things. One of the hundred of little things you see when working in a male-dominated environment (as I have for all my life) that says “you are different”.

        Also, who says this that this is the worst thing that’s bugging that person?

        1. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

          Agreed. I also find any mention of “panties in a bunch” pretty condescending. :(

          Little things add up, and I don’t think it helps anyone to be dismissive about these issues. It’s like someone standing on your foot and lecturing you that at least your leg isn’t being chewed off by shrews when you ask them to move.

        2. ITPuffNStuff*

          to be honest, it’s hard hearing the term “male dominated” thrown around a lot, too. as a male, i feel as though i’m being convicted of something every time i hear that term. it makes me (and all men) sound like angry, violent, aggressive people who shout down (dominate) and control anyone who doesn’t agree with and/or pander to their wishes. i’ve never seen an actual work environment like that, and would not remain in such an office if i did.

          i don’t know whether any of that is what’s intended by the term, and i don’t (and can’t) know how it feels to work as a female in an environment where most of the other employees and/or management are male. i feel great sympathy for anyone who feels overwhelmed and/or underrepresented, especially if the reason is something they cannot control such as race or gender. i just thought i would share that, despite whatever society claims we should be, men are vulnerable too, and “male-dominated” is one of those terms that hurts to hear.

          1. h*

            I’m late to this, so I don’t know if you’ll even see it, but a “male dominated” workplace, for example, isn’t about anger or violence or aggression! I’m pretty sure it’s just saying that the majority of people working there are men.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yeah, echoing this. The term literally just means “mainly staffed by men.” It’s just a factual observation about the composition of the staff; it doesn’t say anything beyond that. It doesn’t mean the men are dominating others in any sense other than being more numerous.

              1. ITPuffNStuff*

                thank you for replying, miss green. i appreciate the clarification and i can see how i projected my own experiences (and the anxieties that go with them) onto that term. i guess we all bring our own histories into the present, and how we interpret things reveals more about ourselves than it does about the objects we interpret.

          2. Anx*

            I don’t want to discount the hurt you feel at hearing the term, but it’s possible you’re approaching this from a defensive standpoint that is interfering with your ability to listen to these discussions more objectively.

            I’m a woman, so I can’t say I know what it’s like to bristle at the phrase, but I do belong to other dominant, privileged groups. I know that in my experience, there has been an almost reflexive defensiveness to being lumped in with dominant groups. But really, nobody was indicting me for my being part of those groups or even benefiting from them, but rather were trying to explain how they felt as being part of the other group.

            Also, “male-dominated” usually refers mostly to the men:non-men ratio of people. Those numbers can also affect the culture so that it feels more male. And it’s rare that that dominance is to clearly oppressive or aggressive. In my experience, it plays out much more subtly, yet pervasively. Like when trying to serve a special group that is mostly men is being seen as providing services to a genderless group, but doing so for a group that’s mostly women is seen as serving special interests. Or being interrupted as I’m finishing a thought. Or worrying that every misstep is indicative that I haven’t earned my spot in a table, when it’s quite normal for competent people to make mistakes. I’ve had some incredibly kind, supportive male coworkers that still have made me doubt myself and my ability to fit in with the little things that kept adding up. I doubt they ever meant to undercut me, but they have unwittingly.

            1. ITPuffNStuff*

              thank you for taking the time to respond Anx.

              i wonder, if we men can be incredibly kind and supportive, but still undercut you, is the bar even reachable? i guess what i’m asking is, have you ever known a man who didn’t undercut you? if not, it’s conceivable the standard of behavior that would avoid making you feel undercut is actually an (unreachable) standard of perfection.

              i wrestle with the idea of someone else’s actions making me feel something or not feel something. certainly, feelings are triggered by our experiences, and that includes other people’s choices. still, i find more often than not, my feelings are strongly indicative of my own insecurities, and weakly indicative of the other person’s actions.

              this is where open, non-judgmental communication is so critical. if something i’m doing is triggering someone else’s insecurities, i need to know that, but i need to be told in a way that doesn’t attack me or make me a villain. i’m a good guy who genuinely cares about others’ feelings, but i’m not a mind reader and i’m never going to satisfy a standard of perfection. also, while i think we are all responsible to try not to trigger each others’ insecurities, there is also room for us as individuals to take ownership and responsibility for our own feelings. if something leaves me feeling insecure, i may ask others to accommodate me, but i still need to deal with those insecurities and try to reduce and/or build up resistance to them. otherwise i’m not making any personal growth, and just carrying those insecurities into every new situation.

              1. Melissa*

                I’m not Anx, but some thoughts:

                1. Yes, of course the bar is reachable – it involves people thinking about how their actions affect others. I’m a woman and my two PhD advisors were both men who did not undercut me while being kind and supportive. I’ve worked with lots of men who don’t undercut me. There’s a difference.

                2. I hear this argument a lot – “people can’t make you feel a certain way, only you can make you feel a certain way” – but I reject that argument as patently false. Humans are social animals. Of course other people’s actions affect the way that we feel about ourselves, insecurities notwithstanding. I know that my writing is excellent, but (for example) getting rejected from a scientific journal still makes me feel bad at least initially. If a person point-blank says to you “Your works sucks,” are you not supposed to have a reaction to that? It’s really not much different if people subtly imply (intentionally or not) that your work is subpar or that you don’t fit into a group because of your gender.

                3. Imagine that someone unintentionally steps on your toe at 7 am on your way to work. Then someone else steps on it at 9 am as you walk through the door. Then again at 10 am. And then again, and again, every hour. By the time someone steps on your toe at 5 pm, even if it was unintentional, you might be so fed up with getting your toe smashed that you inadvertently blow up at the person – even if they are a different person, who has no idea why you are mad!

                Sometimes, that’s what it’s like being in a marginalized/minority group in the workplace (including a woman in a male-dominated place). Sure, this may have been YOUR first faux-pas, but for the woman in question, this might be her 100th time dealing with gender-related slights that week, and she might be a bit upset and tired of dealing with this and might not handle it in the best way. In a perfect world she’d handle every breach with perfection and poise – but just like you don’t want to be held to a standard of perfection, don’t hold her to a standard of perfection in dealing with the faux-pas, either.

                As for the rest…well, I always feel a certain type of way when people say that we need to take responsibility for our own feelings. My counter for that is that I feel that people need to take responsibility for how their remarks and behaviors make others feel, because – again – humans are social creatures, and it’s only natural and normal that we react to the ways in which others treat us. That has nothing to do with insecurities. (Besides, being treated as lesser-than because of my gender is not an insecurity that I need to deal with; it’s a societal problem.)

                1. ITPuffNStuff*

                  Hi Melissa,

                  Thank you very much for taking the time to respond.

                  I thought your toe-stepping analogy illustrated the point perfectly; I clearly got a picture of “okay, at some point folks, I’m just being treated like my toes don’t even matter, whether the stepping is intentional or not”.

                  I sense a sort of “it’s this or that / one way or the other” about your point of view. I get something along the lines of “either other people are responsible for their choices — or — I am responsible for my feelings” (with your argument supporting the former).

                  I feel like this is more complex than an either/or proposition. “And” feels more correct to me than “or”:
                  “other people are responsible for their choices –and– I am responsible for my feelings”.

                  I lean this way because I believe everyone brings their own perceptions, –and– everyone is affected emotionally by others’ actions. Are there situations in which it’s completely one way or the other? Yes, but I think they’re the exception. Most situations involve some components of both.

                  Anx pointed out a perfect example in her reply above:
                  “I don’t want to discount the hurt you feel at hearing the term, but it’s possible you’re approaching this from a defensive standpoint that is interfering with your ability to listen to these discussions more objectively.”

                  She pointed out that I was overlaying additional meaning onto the term “male dominated”, and she was right. 100% of that meaning came from my own insecurities. I have to be responsible for those feelings of insecurity; it would not be fair to Anx (or to De [Germany] — the poster to whom I responded above) to consider them insensitive simply because I internally added some meaning they did not intend.

                  In any case, I feel like there’s room for both responsibility for our actions (including how they affect others) and owning our feelings. This is the sort of problem that can be easily sorted out with a non-judging conversation:
                  “ITPuffNStuff, it hurts my toes when you step on them. Did you know you were doing that?”
                  “Argh, I’m sorry, I evidently wasn’t paying enough attention to where your toes were. I will be more careful in the future.”
                  “Thank you.”

                  This is the point where, if you were still really upset about having your toes stepped on, considering me insensitive would be counter-productive. I’ve apologized and agreed to be more careful going forward; at that point, only your own processing of those feelings will help you feel better.

                  Unfortunately all of my statements above are deliberately vague and broad generalities. I don’t know any of the specific situations you have in mind when responding, and the specifics in any given situation would likely sway my thoughts/feelings in one direction or another. If you are still interested in this conversation, and if you don’t mind sharing, could you illustrate some example situations in which you felt your toes had been stepped on by a man, and how the man perceived the situation when you spoke to him about it?

        1. OhNo*

          Agreed. If someone is bothered enough by it to write into an advice column for help, then it IS a “real” problem.

      3. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Whoa. First of all, it does matter, for the reasons other have already said. Second, we talk about loads of things here that could fall under the “not a life-threatening problem but still annoying and/or interesting to talk about,” and plenty of us find it interesting and valuable. If I’m only allowed to cover really serious issues here, I’d rather close up shop, because that sounds boring to me.

        (All that said, I think this one falls pretty squarely in the “real workplace issue” category. I just want to make the the point that even if it didn’t, this is comment that’s far outside the spirit of the site.)

    11. AllyR*

      I’m the only girl in my team. My boss with sometimes do “Gents and AllyR” and I find that annoys me more than just “Gents”. I don’t know why, but its like I’m somehow separate to them. If he occasionally just writes “Gents” and I’m cc’ed, it doesn’t bother me at all.

      I use “All” mostly for group emails. Sometimes “Gents” if it is all gents, Sometimes just ‘Hey”.

      Each to their own.

      1. ITPuffNStuff*

        i used to begin emails quoting Cheap Trick with “Hello There Ladies and Gentlemen”, but my boss didn’t find my sense of humor amusing and/or professional. now i’ve reverted to the simpler (but more boring) “Hello All”.

        1. simonthegrey*

          I don’t send many workplace emails that are official; when I send out emails to my students it’s simply “all students,” but sometimes, with peer coworkers, it’s “my peeps” as in short for “my people.”

      2. No Longer Passing By*

        Your boss seems tone-deaf and obnoxious, at least in this regard. I hope that he is better in other aspects

    12. ITPuffNStuff*

      obviously the sender was inconsiderate, but i would characterize this as an understandable and easily fixed mistake rather than the somewhat more judgment-laden “offensive”. “offensive” implies the sender acted maliciously and is A Bad Person, when more than likely he was just a bit careless. i feel like applying the label “offensive” is bringing the contextual experience of past sexism into the present situation, and i don’t feel it’s fair to attach that weight.

      sexism is a real and prevalent problem, something virtually everyone is guilty of perpetrating (against themselves, against others of their own gender, and against the opposite gender) and virtually everyone has been victimized by at different points in their lives. attaching value judgments to the offender usually isn’t an effective approach to resolving the problem (or, as much as i hate to quote theology, let he [or she] who is without sexism throw the first stone).

      i think other readers’ suggestions to reply with something like “… and ladies?” points out the oversight without judging the offender. we all make mistakes, and equal gender representation comes through practice and repetition at correcting those mistakes, not through attacks and bitter conflicts.

      1. Samantha*

        I realize I’m in the minority, but I would let it go. Sometimes people say things we wish they wouldn’t, but unless it’s deliberately meant to hurt, like addressing someone with the n-word, I don’t think it matters in the long run. I always think about something my grandma says,”Will it matter in a day? A week? A month? A year?”

        1. Melissa*

          Well, of course it matters. Intent isn’t magic. Consistently addressing a group with an exclusionary term like “gents” sends the (perhaps unintentional) message that women are the Other, or that they don’t matter, or aren’t part of the group. Sure, the message might be unintentional, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt.

          Think about it this way – if you accidentally stepped on someone’s toe, doesn’t it still hurt? And wouldn’t you still apologize, even if you did it unintentionally? It’s the same thing – a person might inadvertently do something that harms someone else, but just because they “didn’t mean it” doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have consequences for the other person.

  2. Katie the Fed*

    I’ve started a new position, and one of my employees is a serious chronic complainer/whiner. She won’t complain to me much because I shut that down in a hot second, especially if it’s just whining. i’ll turn it back around on her and ask what steps she’s taking to address it (example – she feels she should have been promoted by now and it’s just not faaaaair that other people have been and she’s still stuck in a lower grade. So I’ll ask her what feedback past supervisors have given her, and what she’s done to address that, and it becomes “well…I don’t know….” and she slinks off. So she’s stopped complaining to me).

    The problem though is she also complains constantly to anyone in earshot – mainly her coworkers. So they’re annoyed with her but they just sit there and get annoyed. I don’t usually get involved in interpersonal issues unless I’m asked do – but since they’ve mentioned it to me (like “yeah, Sansa mentioned she’s upset abut her lack of promotion – I’ve probably heard about it 75 times today”) should I get involved? What I’d really like to say is “Stop whining. Now. Everyone is sick of hearing about it. Either take action on the things that bother you or learn to live with them, but we’re all sick of hearing about it.” But she’s SUPER touchy and I feel like being that blunt will only exacerbate the complaining/negativity.

    UGH. Help. Also – my whine. I was really good with my last team. I worked with them for years and I was really good at dealing with them because I knew them well and how to communicate with them. Now I have a whole new crop of people and it’s HARRRD, dammit.

    1. Christy*

      Well, how would you handle this if she were doing something else obnoxious in the office? Would you address it?

      And I think it’s probably a bad idea to avoid addressing something just because someone is touchy.

      Could you talk to her about exactly what would be required for a promotion, and include “stop whining”?

      1. Katie the Fed*

        So part of the issue is that I have limited control over promotions. I can make a recommendation, but they’re handled by a panel who reviews an employee’s personnel file. And since she’s new to me – these are issues that have to do with her previous manager. And promotions are a bit of a crapshoot right now – they’ve slowed down a lot in general with the fiscal constraints. So she is legitimately annoyed and right to be frustrated. But at some point you have to STFU already because you’re driving everyone nuts.

        1. Gene*

          You need to tell her that. Probably soften it a bit, or not, depending on what you think might work best.

          Since she’s a Drama Llama, maybe just be direct, blunt, and cruel; if you’re lucky she’ll get so offended that she’ll quit on the spot.

        2. Christy*

          Could you say “To even recommend you for a promotion, I’d need to see x, y, and no more whining. And they’ll still consider your past performance issues when debating.”?

          And I think, honestly, that if she’s looking for a promotion, she should be looking to another office. That’s what my agency has going on–all promotions are internal hires from other departments. That’s just how it’s working for us. We all know that whining isn’t going to help.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            Yeah, I think I’ll have to be more blunt. Of course then she’ll just be complaining about me :)

            One of the things that’s giving me pause is I know women unfairly get feedback on their personalities a lot, and I really don’t want do that, because this seems somewhat of a personality thing. I definitely won’t use the word “whining” – it feels gendered, doesn’t it?

            1. afiendishthingy*

              it does feel gendered, and infantilizing. I’d just stick with negative attitude and then define that as including repeated complaints to coworkers to the point of affecting morale and productivity (if true.)

              I know what you mean about being a bit cautious of giving negative feedback about women’s personalities – although this is a behavior, not just her personality. Would it be acceptable from a man? No. I worry about the “abrasive” thing with female employees with “strong personalities”, but I also have a few women I can hold up mentally as “assertive” and not abrasive, and men who are definitely abrasive and not just assertive, and vice versa, so I try to think of specific behaviors that define those traits.

              1. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

                I think afiendishthingy is correct to focus on her behavior (and maybe specific phrases?) as negativity rather than “whining.” Less debatable, and even somehow less personal.

                Like, I’m sensitive as heck and if I was being a whiny jerk I’d respond much, much better to being called out for contributing to a negative environment than if someone called what I was doing “whining”—even if it totally was.

            2. Mpls*

              Use “complaining” instead? As in, complaining without a constructive element or a solution is corrosive to workplace morale.

            3. Beezus*

              You mentioned that she’s quick to talk excessively about problems, but often hasn’t even considered solutions to the problems. I would focus on that and stay away from the W word, it feels like the main thing.

            4. OhNo*

              You could address it as not so much WHAT she’s saying, but WHO she’s saying it to. I’m assuming that her coworkers don’t have any more control over her promotions than you do, so that might be the key point to address.

              Something like:
              “Louise, I understand your frustration about not getting a promotion, and I know you know that things are tough financially for the department right now and a promotion might be a long time coming. But FOR NOW, I need you to stop discussing your lack of promotion with your coworkers. It’s causing frustration on the team, and your poor attitude is negatively affecting others. If you’d like to focus on earning a promotion moving forward, I’d be more than happy to work with you to make that happen as soon as possible, but I would need to see some changes to your behavior in this area first.”

    2. Graciosa*

      If you were anyone else, I’d be writing about coaching your team how to handle this when they mention it, and not to be afraid of managing her just because she’s super touchy, and really, who cares if she leaves –

      But you’re Katie the Fed, and you already knew this, so just sympathy.

      At times like these, I try to remind myself that “This is why we get paid the big bucks for managing” in spite of the fact that the bucks aren’t really big enough to cover some of this stuff –

      So *lots* of sympathy.

      1. Stephen King's Constant Reader*

        Lol, yes this.

        But also, is it affecting people’s work or is it just annoying behavior? It may be hard to police her just for being irritating, but if you could tie it into the fact that people just aren’t able to concentrate when she’s around, etc., maybe that will sink in for her.

        1. Spiky Plant*

          I think it’s totally OK to acknowledge that even if it’s not impacting the work DIRECTLY, if people are super irritated with her, she’s going to drive far better employees than her out of the office. The environment where one works is a real factor in retention, and the best have options. So if people are complaining, I think it’s totally OK to approach it as “You’re causing this office to be a more negative space for everyone, and you’re working counter to your own goal of promotion when you do that. You’ve said your piece, I’ve told you what you need to do to get promoted, and I’ve told you the realities of what promotions here involve. Now I’m adding that if I continue hearing that other people are sick of hearing you complain, I can’t possibly recommend you for promotion in the future.” If that’s the reality, then it’s fair to say it straight up to her.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yep — tie it directly to her desire for a promotion. “It would be really hard for me to recommend you for a promotion while you’re so frequently complaining to the team and being so distracting to others. But I’d love to help you get into a position where I could really advocate for you, and one thing we look for in promotions in leadership and professionalism. Let’s talk about how to show those qualities in a situation where you’re frustrated and not getting something that’s important to you.” Etc.

            Of course, if her work isn’t of a caliber where you’d recommend her for a promotion if she fixed this issue, don’t say any of that. In that case, I’d go with KathyGeiss’s excellent wording below. In fact, I might just go with Kathy’s anyway.

        2. afiendishthingy*

          I have a peer who behaves this way and it totally affects my work, makes me more anxious, makes me reluctant to approach her for legitimate work questions, etc. I guess I – and Katie’s employees – need to get better at manning up and shutting her down. (My problem is I have previously opened the door to some venting, but she takes it too far, so I gotta make it clear that I can’t hear it from her anymore.) I think it’s also totally reasonable at this point to tell her she is harming not only herself but her coworkers and the whole department with this behavior.

      2. Katie the Fed*

        Eh – I know how to handle when she’s doing it to me, but not when she’s annoying my team. But thank you :)

        I also fear this is becoming a Bitch Eating Crackers scenario, because I just find her REALLY grating.

        1. Lionness*

          I know what you mean, Katie the Fed. I have one of them, too and she wont. stop. eating. the. damn. crackers.

      3. That Marketing Chick*

        +1 and know that you’re AWESOME (all of us here know that!), and you’ll figure it out. But I think for the betterment of your team as a whole…you need to address it.

    4. KathyGeiss*

      This is going to be an awkward and uncomfortable conversation but I think it’s an important one. I’d be clear with her on what behaviour your witnessing, the impact it’s having on the team and the change you need to see.

      “Sansa, it’s become clear to me that you’re unhappy about several things. I am willing to work with you to identify solutions and approaches to your concerns. But, currently you’re negatively impacting the team with your consistent complaining. I need you to resist bringing these topics up with people who are uninvolved. If you have a problem, please bring it to me with thoughts on solutions. If I continue to hear about your complaints, we’re going to need to have a larger discussion about your fit in this role and on the team.”

      Maybe leave out the last sentence for the first convo but be super clear that it needs to stop while reminding her that when/if she actually wants to do something, you’re available.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Ooh I like that! thank you! That’s the wording I couldn’t quite come up with because I am so out of patience with her.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I think this is the road to try next.

        There is nothing wrong with saying, “Sansa, you are probably not aware how often I hear complaints about your dissatisfaction with your job. You need to be aware that what you say does, indeed, get repeated. And it gets repeated OFTEN. You need to remember that we are all in the same boat working under the same constraints. Part of what you are being compensated for is to work with what we have here.” State what improvements you expect and what will happen if there is no improvement. “If I continue to hear complaints about your upsets we will have to have another sit-down discussion on this matter.”

        I would be sorely tempted to point out problem solvers are the ones who get promoted. The people who simply go around pointing out problems are not as likely to be promoted. Conversely, you could do a parallel thing by using specific examples: “People who have been promoted have shown they can do x, y and z comfortably. Furthermore they have indicated an interest in a, b and c. And they have gotten up to speed on d and e. On the basis of the number of complaints you have I can see where the higher ups would decide that you were not ready to take on new areas. You have shown a lot of discomfort with most of these tasks.”

        In order to motivate myself for this conversation, I would keep reminding myself that my group needs me to do this. It sucks for a moment but there is a long term benefit. One person like this can bring down a whole group.

        2. MaryMary*

          I agree with Not So New Reader. I’d address the whining with regards to how people are beginning to perceive Sansa, and how it will impact her reputation in the workplace. If she wants to be promoted, she should want to be thought of as Sansa the Rockstar, not Sansa the Whiner.

      3. afiendishthingy*

        ” I need you to resist bringing these topics up WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE UNINVOLVED. If you have a problem, please bring it to me with THOUGHTS ON SOLUTIONS.” Bingo!!!

    5. AnonArch*

      Considering you’ve received complaints (though maybe not formal ones) and it seems to be upsetting the workflow of your team, you probably do need to speak with her. That being said, touchy people who go on the defensive when confronted are super difficult to deal with. My usual approach is a lunch or coffee break with just the two of you where she can feel like you’re being understanding and nurturing (sigh) and that’s why you’re being honest (and hopefully the rest of the team will understand that it’s a meeting and not favoritism). Also, advice in this situation is probably super helpful. I’ve been in her position with GS grade issues and I ended up moving up through the ranks as a contracter much quicker. I didn’t complain about it all the time because that’s not really anyone’s problem, but maybe you can talk to her about the highs and lows of government work and maybe offer some advice? Sorry you have a complainer on your hands – I’m definitely more like you with the whole “shut up and deal with it” kind of attitude when it’s not something you are any of your team are in any position to fix. It’s just not appropriate behavior. I’m going to follow this thread all day to see what others have to say. I’m curious!

    6. Malissa*

      I’d tell her, “One of the things you could do to start working toward a promotion is to have a more positive attitude in the office.”
      When she replies, “What do you mean by that?”
      Say, ‘Well you could try asking people about X rather than mention the fact you haven’t got a promotion yet. Take an interest and be positive.”

    7. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Interesting. I’m going to disagree with most of the other comments and say that (depending on the workplace), this doesn’t rise to the level of a manager’s problem. I think the co-workers need to shut her down or ignore her, depending on their personal communication styles and their relationship with that co-worker. I guess the best case for intervening is if HER productivity is low or dropping, you can ask her to not stand around in other peoples’ cubes chatting as much, but if I were in your place, I would feel like it was overstepping to try to restrict the content of her conversations.

    8. A Minion*

      Perhaps you could institute a “No Gossip” policy. I know some people wouldn’t consider that gossiping, but if you think about it, it really is when it’s concerning things like promotions or raises or workload, etc. She’s complaining to people who aren’t in a position to change her situation and the things she’s complaining about are ways in which she feels she’s been wronged by management, so it could be considered gossiping when you look at it in that context. There are offices that have that policy in place and it seems to work well. In fact, I believe it’s been referenced here before, though I’m not sure where that thread is.
      The long and short of it is this: if you’re complaining to someone about an issue that they have no power to impact and that doesn’t involve them personally, you’re gossiping and it needs to stop.
      It may seem harsh, but it’s effective.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        I don’t think instituting a blanket policy to fix one person’s behavior is the best solution. Whiny McBitchnmoan needs to change, not the whole department.

      2. Graciosa*

        You need to be really careful even appearing to be trying to prevent employees from discussing working conditions with each other (labor law issue). You can address the complaining in other ways, but this area is one where you need to be sensitive (and get expert advice from HR or legal counsel).

    9. brightstar*

      One possibility is that she is unaware of how often she’s complaining about the lack of promotion. People often are blind to how often they mention things. And since the job and the people are new to you, I think this makes it a little more difficult.

      That said, it definitely sounds like it’s impacting your team. I would go with the approach of coaching your team on how to respond and if it continues, then addressing it. And actively working with her on improving certain things to get promoted may help.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        This is true. I’ve been called out on complaining in the past and was surprised – I didn’t realize how vocal I was being.

        Thanks for the advice – I’ll mention to the team how they might try dealing.

    10. Thinking out loud*

      “Sansa, I’ve been thinking about the fact that you said you wanted a promotion since we talked about it last, and I’d like to talk about the steps we should take to get you ready for it.” Then I’d discuss concrete things that you think she can do. Some of my managers don’t understand the details of what I do and would need to give general things like “Begin providing useful metrics for your work” and would have to ask me for details on how I would implement that. I think that’s fine (or maybe even better, as it gets her involved with the planning). I’d ask her to document it and e-mail it to you, and then I’d say, “And listen, I know it’s frustrating how long it takes to get a promotion around here, but I want you to know that I think we can get you there and that I’ll be supporting you all the way. It has been mentioned to me that you’ve discussed this with a number of coworkers, and I’d prefer that you discuss your concerns about this promotion with me in the future rather than discussing it with other folks. Are you okay with that?”

      1. Aww man, not another Sansa chapter!*

        It is so appropriate that you chose to call this employee Sansa

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Not accidental! She’s a perpetual victim – it’s not just this promotion thing – it’s everything.

    11. Louise*

      I had this conversation with an employee this week. Her complaints had become a performance issue. We talked about the behaviors, underlying issues, the impact of the behavior on others, and expectations going forward.

      I think it was important to the process to acknowledge the content/context of the complaints. Sansa is upset about not getting a promotion. She may not understand that longevity in her position is not the deciding factor in promotions or that opportunities are in short supply. Your expectations for her might include a hard limit regarding complaints, but also some steps for developing her promotion potential.

    12. Artemesia*

      If you are her supervisor I’d have a CTJ meeting with her about attitude in the workplace and how aversive it is to have a co-worker constantly whining. And use the word. Let her know that this is a whine free zone and that if she has a specific problem she needs to address is clearly once to the person in a position to do something about it. If her problem is promotions then she needs to talk to whomever has that authority about what she needs to accomplish to be considered for promotion. (probably stop whining is one of those things.)

    13. Revanche*

      I had this exact problem with one of my reports. A legacy who thought she should have been promoted already but in actuality was both unqualified and had a serious attitude problem, she wasn’t ever going to be promoted until she displayed the maturity level befitting a senior manager. So I had to tell her that: I’m here to mentor if you actually want this promotion but either way, the (whinging) constant dwelling on negativity has to stop as it’s unprofessional and demonstrates a lack of judgement that would not be tolerated in someone with as much responsibility over people as the much coveted role. It took a few firm conversations but at least it was clear that the grievance was not going to be resolved to her satisfaction until she changed her actions.

      On the gendered thing, I understand what you mean but I mentally characterized the actions the exact same way when I encountered it in her twin problem staffer who was male. Whining is whining, sometimes…

  3. Ladidadida*

    Is it worth listing ‘other languages spoken’ on a resume if the job doesn’t specifically require that language? (Especially if the job is located in an area where that language isn’t that commonly spoken?)

    1. Future Analyst*

      I wouldn’t. Unless you truly believe it’s going to up your chances of being hired, it may just look like you’re throwing anything and everything on your resume, with no regard for what the company is actually looking for.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        Yeah, me too. It’s interesting! And it could be useful in ways you don’t anticipate–for example, Spanish isn’t required or needed to do my job, but my boss is fluent in it and likes having others to chat with in that language. Plus, there’s a growing body of research of the benefits of being bilingual, such as “that bilingual people are more efficient at higher-level brain functions such as ignoring other irrelevant information.” (I’ll post the link for that quote separately).

    3. Lily in NYC*

      I say definitely. You never know when it might come in handy or if one of your interviewers also speaks that language which could create a bonding moment. And I don’t see a downside where it would hurt. It’s a skill just like any other.

    4. Anna*

      I do. Just mostly as “This is a skill I also have.” Even if you’re in an area where the language isn’t commonly spoken, I think it’s worthwhile to list it. It’s an actual skill that you have and you’re never sure when it will pop up as being needed.

      1. OfficePrincess*

        I agree. I’m in an area where Spanish is very common and we get a lot of bilingual applicants. It’s a skill that comes in handy on the job, definitely. But we also get an inordinately high number of customers who speak Russian and other Eastern European languages that are very rarely spoken around here. We’d never request it in a job description since so little of the applicant pool speaks those languages, but if someone came along with even a small amount of proficiency in Russian, we’d be very excited.

        1. Turanga Leela*

          I was going to say this. If you’re fluent in Haitian Creole, you suddenly allow your organization to take on Haitian clients, even if they’re a small group and the organization has never worked with them before. It’s a huge asset. Just make sure you’d be able and willing to use your language skills in the course of your job.

    5. S.*

      Yes! I’m starting a new job in two weeks, and I think a big reason why I got it was that I speak some Spanish. Language skills weren’t mentioned in the ad, but it turns out Spanish speaking clients are not uncommon, which I wouldn’t have guessed based on the area where the job is located.

    6. Lucy*

      I would include it, since it’s a nice conversation starter if nothing else. Caveat: only include it if it’s in a native/working fluency capacity – I’ve seen a lot of people list “fluent in Spanish” when in reality they took it in high school 10+ years ago.

      1. Spiky Plant*

        This! If you could actually write something in that language, read something in that language, or speak to a random person that popped into the office speaking that language, definitely put it. If you’re not that strong, it’s not as important (though you might still include it and say “intermediate” or something else that’s not a lie).

      3. Jill 2*

        Here’s something weird — what if you ARE technically native to a language, but have lost spoken proficiency? My mother tongue is not English and I spoke it until I was about 5. With socialization into American schools, I just lost touch with it. My mom only ever speaks to me in the language, so I understand it perfectly. But if you ask me to speak, I get self-conscious and can’t. I believe if I was dropped in my native country for a couple of months with no help, it would come back to me, but languages aren’t my strong suit. I just happened to be raised in it and know it, but can’t speak it.

        Is that not enough fluency to list?

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I use the term “proficient”– I’m not fluent in French, but I’m pretty good at it. If you put me in the middle of France and gave me a few cocktails, my skills would be back to college-level (when I minored in French) in about 36 hours. So my resume says I’m “proficient in French”. No one’s ever really cared, though it occasionally comes in handy for odd reasons.

    7. Lionness*

      I actually would. Especially if it is a second (or third, or fourth…) language because I think it speaks to a level of dedication and particular skillset that is required to learn and be fluent in additional languages

    9. AMD*

      Yes, you never know!

      Have you read the Shopaholic series? At one point, she lies on a resume and says she speaks Finnish, to make herself look more accomplished… Only to find out the company has been searching desperately for someone to work with their clients from Helsinki….

      1. Ladidadida*

        Haha, I haven’t read it but now I want to look them up just to find out how that job turned out…

        1. land of oaks*

          In the movie version she does a great job of faking Finnish. Isla Fisher is pretty dang funny.

    10. CTE 08-8F NAV*

      The only downside I can think of is something that’s come up a couple of times here on AAM: someone is applying for a call-center job, they say they speak (for example) Spanish in addition to English, and they find themselves working the (grossly under-staffed, grueling) Bilingual English / Spanish line.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I’d mention it, because it could be on someone’s “nice to have” list of employee skills. Where I work, we deal with overseas military member benefits, and we do hire people (at a premium) who speak languages that aren’t common in the area but are where the US has bases. It could open up doors for you – doors you never knew existed!

        Or it can just give you something interesting to talk about with your interviewer. (There’s actually an additional benefit at my company – occasionally we need someone to translate something written in a language we don’t normally hire for. Someone who does the translation can get paid at a higher rate than usual for that day, if they’re normally a lower paygrade.)

      2. Anonsie*

        Yeah I would tread carefully with this for certain jobs where something like that is possible.

      3. afiendishthingy*

        Not sure if this is the case at all call centers, but I got paid a dollar more an hour when I worked at one because I spoke Spanish. The spanish call volume wasn’t too high – maybe 10% of my total calls, if that – only real downside was getting some really crappy shifts because they needed at least one bilingual person on at say, 6 am (whereas they needed few enough English speakers at that time that those shifts went to people who actually liked starting work before dawn. No judgment, I’m just not one of them!)

    11. Jen RO*

      This question is super-weird for an European – in a professional/corporate job, a resume that *doesn’t* mention at least one foreign language will most likely get ignored.

        1. Jen RO*

          I think the UK is the exception here – if you’re lucky enough to speak English as a first language, you’re fine. If you’re not… you’d better learn it if you want to get into the corporate world.

    12. Karowen*

      I have French listed on my resume because it was my minor in college – The number of people who were randomly excited about that in my last round of interviews was weirdly high, and they had absolutely no mention of needing to speak any second language in the application process. I feel like it’s one of those things that certainly can’t hurt, and may help. Just be prepared to identify what sort of working proficiency you have in it.

    14. Nom d' Pixel*

      I would. I work for an international corporation, and English is the official company language (nice for us, but sucks for a lot of other employees). Even though other languages aren’t required for us lucky English speakers, we do run into communication problems, and having someone who can help break down language barriers always helps. Plus, it shows an openness about other cultures, which is always a plus in a global company.

    15. Future Analyst*

      The comments here are so interesting– I never thought to list my native language (it’s obscure and useful only in the country I’m from) on my resume, mostly because I didn’t want to draw attention to the fact that I’m not originally from the US. Probably different for more universally useful languages, like Spanish.

  4. ACA*

    Can I just say that if I never hear my coworker on the phone cooing “HI BABY! HI BABY GIRL! IT’S GRANDMA! YOU’RE SO PRETTY! HI!” ever again, it will still be too soon? Unfortunately, her granddaughter’s only six months old, so it looks like I’m going to be suffering on a daily basis for a long time to come.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Ugh. The guy who sits behind me fights multiple times a day over the phone with his boyfriend. I’m so glad I don’t understand the language they speak.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        I worked with a contractor once who would fight with his wife all the time. They would have these raging arguments, and he would end them by saying things like, “I f-ing hate you!” and slamming down the phone. Nice. I always wanted to ask him why he and his wife were still married. It was pretty obvious that they hated each other.

        1. TL -*

          “pretty obvious that they hated each other” made me laugh.

          They were advertising it for all to hear, or at least he was.

        2. Amanda*

          I once had a boss at a small family owned business who would loudly scream at his wife with his office door open. I was his legal assistant, and so I sat around 10 feet away from him with only the (open) door separating our work spaces. It was awful, and everyone heard it, and no one could call him on it. Really, really terrible.

          1. brightstar*

            My first job out of college was at a similar environment, it was so bad myself and the one other employee would have to leave the office and stand outside.

        3. Bea W*

          Reminds me of my dinners with my grandparents.

          I came with my father to visit one day, and as we were walking in the door my grandfather blurts out “Your mother is an asshole!” It took me a couple seconds to figure out he wasn’t talking to me about my mother.

          No one was sure why they stayed married. My grandfather had divorced previously after 10 years married (no children). So there was precedent for it.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          Some people enjoy the drama and they’ll play it out over many years. Fight and make up, fight and make up.

          That doesn’t mean you should have to listen to it at work, however!

      2. CTE 08-8F NAV*

        When I was maybe 10yo, my parents took me to the circus, which was happening in some kind of arena complex.

        About halfway through, I excused myself to find the little boy’s room, and I’m in the outer hallway of the facility, which is filled with vendors and misc people – and there is a couple who are faced off at each other, about 30ft apart, and they are ***SCREAMING*** at each other in Spanish; I had never seen two people anywhere, in reality or television or the movies, who were as angry as these two. I thought I was going to see blood spill. I was disturbed enough that I ran away. I found a bathroom, returned to my seat.

        … and 10 minutes later, guess who I see? It’s that couple. They were part of the trapeze act. They were I dunno 75ft up on a pole, all smiles, hugging each other, waving at the crowd. This was a long time ago, I forget who did what, but I DO remember that part of the act involved one of them somersaulting off of the trapeze and being caught in mid-air by their partner.

        They must have had a very complex and interesting relationship.

        1. Kas*

          Perhaps that was their way of clearing out any niggling tensions so they could focus on the performance ;)

      3. DaBlonde*

        My coworker calls his fiance every morning and repeatedly asks her, “How are you?” “Are you annoyed, you sound annoyed.” for a solid 15 minutes every morning.
        Seriously co-dependent and annoying.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          omg. In your place I’d be very tempted to shout “I don’t know if she is but I’m pretty annoyed!”

    2. Anna*

      Too bad you can’t say something like, “You tell your granddaughter she’s pretty a lot. Do you also talk to her about her other abilities? Like how well she eats mushy peas? I think it’s important to instill in young girls that their worth isn’t solely in their looks.”

      2. ACA*

        I wish! But mostly I wish I could say, “Your office is more than 50 feet down the hall, but you are so loud that the rest of us can hear your side of every single phone call you make, so please either shut your door or develop an inside voice.”

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Could you just say in a friendly tone, “Hey Jane, would you mind closing your door when you’re on the phone with your granddaughter? It tends to get loud.”

          1. ACA*

            She outranks me by multiple levels, unfortunately, and she wouldn’t take kindly to it.

    3. infj*

      Do you work with my mother in law? If she never tells my kid he’s SO CUTE again, it will be too soon. If it’s any consolation, the kid’s parents are probably equally annoyed.

    4. Anoners*

      People using baby voices while talking to significant others in the office is the worst! I just can’t fathom being so lovey dovey on the phone when everyyyoneee can hear you. You are not Kim Kardashian, please do not talk like you’re six years old.

    5. Dawn*

      Ha ha ha man loud phone conversation havers are the worst! I used to work with a very high strung, slightly odd guy who would be on the receiving end of berating phone calls from his wife at least twice a day, and half the time he’d give it back as good as he was getting it. Loudly. In the middle of the office.

      There was also one time when he called up the police to talk about how the cars in the street outside would go by faster than he thought was safe because there was a crosswalk there and then got mad because the cops were basically like “They’re going the speed limit and we can’t do anything unless you have a complaint about a particular car.”

      1. Steve G*

        OMG that sounds like the male version of Mrs. Bucket from Keeping up Appearances! I remember one episode she was calling the Chinese embassy to complain about how people kept calling her house thinking it was a Chinese restaurant

    6. Jennifer*

      Gag me.
      I bet this’ll be me in a few years when my coworker’s kid finally gets around to birthin’ babies, though.

    7. MaryMary*

      Our CEO’s grandson figured out how to FaceTime grandpa on his mother’s ipad when he was abou 18 months. Our CEO stops whatever he is doing to babble with his grandson, even if he was in the middle of a meeting or a phone call. Sometimes whoever is in the interrupted meeting is encouraged to talk to the grandson too.

  5. Gene*

    We are having a discussion around the office about mixed orientation documents. When one is stapling a document that contains both portrait and landscape pages, which way do the landscape pages go, top to left or top to right? I have the feeling this is like the Oxford Comma war.

      1. fposte*

        I had no idea I had a preference, and yet top to right seems utterly inconceivable to me.

      2. LBK*

        Yep. Top to right seems weird to me – you’d have all the prior pages closer to you, possibly hanging off the table depending how close you need the document to you in order to read it.

    3. Delyssia*

      I do top to left. Though it’s totally one of my pet peeves when clients provide multiple forms that have to be returned together, but they’re in a mix of orientations. Ugh!

    4. Lillie Lane*

      You didn’t ask this, but just wanted to put it out there….I am firmly in the “staple placed at a 45 degree angle in the corner” camp.

          1. LBK*

            Unless you have cats that think the over roll is a fun toy to unravel all over your bathroom.

          3. Cath in Canada*

            I like the 45 degree staple placement, but I like my toilet paper to come from under the roll. The latter is purely because my mum and sister hate it that way and I was never allowed to do it my own way growing up. Now I have my own house and I will hang my paper how I want, thankyouverymuch.

            (My mum still changes it when she stays with us)

            1. Gene*

              To amuse myself, I frequently change the way it’s hung in bathrooms I use, public or private.

        2. Kas*

          Absolutely. Also, if you staple parallel to an edge, the paper will eventually tear around the staple.

      3. Talvi*

        45 degree angle AND right close to the corner. Why oh why do people feel the need to put the staple 2-3cm (or more!) in from the corner?

    5. Brett*

      Top to the left, but that is because most of my landscape documents are maps. If you staple top to the right there is a good chance you are obscuring metadata whereas top to the left almost never does.

    6. Ann O'Nemity*

      Top of landscape pages to the inside.

      This preference goes back to my days of having mixed orientation documents bound, but I do it the same way when stapling.

    7. Aunt Vixen*

      I was going to say I think the reader’s preference is strongly correlated to whether the reader is right- or left-handed, but that may have to do more with clipboards than stapled documents, and now I’m not so sure. :-) Me personally, I feel like the top and the left are the beginnings of pages, so if the top can’t go on the top, it goes on the left – but that’s exactly the opposite of how I want things on a clipboard, because I’m going to keep the clip in my left hand so I can write with my right hand, which means the top of the landscape page would have to be on the right side in portrait orientation.

      Augh. Can’t we just stop printing things out and read everything on a screen? Adobe will handle that nicely for you.

      1. TheExchequer*

        The minute Adobe easily lets me make notes on a page, I’ll be happy to stop printing things out.

      2. to*

        Top to the left is “correct” but as a leftie my natural inclination is top to the right! I have to fight it every time.

    8. Ann Furthermore*

      I would say top to the left. This was drilled into my by a former, very nutty, manager who had extremely precise requirements about stuff like this. Anything with a landscape that was going into a binder was to be inserted into said binder with the heading facing to the left. And God help you if something got in there flipped the wrong way. Or if you didn’t tap your stack of pages 3 times on the long side, then twice on the short side, before using the hole punch.

      1. Aunt Vixen*

        Back in the law firm days we had one partner who insisted on bigger holes than were (a) found in three-hole paper, (b) punched by any standard-issue hole punch, or (c) drilled by the big ol’ drill they had down in the copy shop (for times when someone decided the thousand or more pages you just copied should have been on three-hole after the copying was done). And fair enough: pages in a full three-inch binder are much easier to turn when the hole is bigger. But god. We had a special hole punch just for documents we were going to bring to him.

    9. Retail Lifer*

      Top left, according to the orientation of the first page. Anything drives me unnecessarily crazy.

      I feel like this is more like the toilet paper over/under debate than the Oxford Comma debate. Gotta be over!

    10. jhhj*

      I am going to be an iconoclast and say top to right. That’s how I imagined it immediately. But I’m pretty sure this is a hill that not only am I uninterested in dying on, it’s one I don’t even feel like climbing.

      But this assumes that the bottom left corner has no information in it — first priority is not to obscure information, and second is to be consistent in the document, so all of them need to go the same way, and if this obscures information lay out those pages again.

  6. Future Analyst*

    Reading through the comments from this morning’s post, I’m now wondering about my own plans for maternity leave. I’ve posted before about how I am unhappy in my current position—my manager is a micromanager and unable to let anyone in our division to their work without constant (and sometimes wholly unnecessary) input from him, and my job itself has shown to be very different than what was presented during the interview process. As such, I’ve been actively applying for positions, and have managed to get two interviews in the past two weeks. However, given that I’m 8 months pregnant, I’m skeptical that anyone will hire me this late, since it would necessitate working for only 4-6 weeks, then being out for 3 months. I was planning on continuing to apply for jobs while on maternity leave (which is completely unpaid, and healthcare is not covered either). Since I’ve been working on getting a new job for the past month or so, is it still crappy to apply for work while on mat leave, and likely not returning?

    1. Christy*

      I would say it’s not like they’re paying you at all, so you’re totally in the right to keep looking for work.

      1. AnonArch*

        Agreed. I think it’s more of an issue when they’re paying out benefits to an employee who then up and leaves after using them.

    2. JC*

      I think your situation is different than the one from this morning because you don’t have a concrete end date in mind right now. From what you currently know, you very well may come back to the office for awhile after maternity leave. And I assume you’ll quit your current job once you are hired at another one, vs. leaving them hanging until you’re supposed to come back, since you’re not getting benefits from them anyway.

    3. BananaPants*

      If they’re not paying you for anything while on leave and you have to foot the bill for healthcare coverage, then IMO you’re free to apply for other jobs while on leave.

    4. to*

      You earned your mat leave during the year+ you worked before going out. You don’t have to earn it again after.

      This goes for everyone! Unless the employer had gone above and beyond the requirements of the law and their own policies with the explicit understanding that you will return for a certain minimum after, you don’t owe them any extra for following the law!

    5. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’m not caught up on the comments from this morning’ post, but I think that neither you nor the original OP is doing anything wrong. You don’t have to plan your pregnancy around your job transitions, and you don’t have to plan your job transitions around your pregnancy. Your employer could lose you at any point; losing you during maternity leave is no different than losing you six months ago or two years from now. Losing valued employees is s a cost of doing business. So is working around maternity leave (and, for generous employers, paying for maternity leave).

      It gets stickier, I think, if you know you’re not coming back after maternity leave but are collecting your salary/health benefits. But I still come down on the side of the employee in that case; that’s a benefit that your employer offers, presumably because they believe it will help them attract and retain strong workers. The fact that it didn’t work to retain you doesn’t mean you’re beholden to them (unless you have a contract that requires repayment or something like that). It’s all a byproduct of our effed-up approach to maternity care in the US, anyway, and call me a feminist radical (which I am) but I’m down with employers bearing some of the brunt of that, just as employees do.

      1. to*

        Completely agreed. Doing the legal minimum required is not a retention policy; having a stronger maternity leave policy than legally required *is* a retention policy but a retention policy is *not* a guarantee.

    6. Cristina in England*

      Unpaid leave and you don’t even get healthcare while you’re out for what is a clearly health-related reason??? Oh hell no. Get out and have a clean conscience. You’re doing NOTHING wrong.

    7. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      What makes leaving from mat leave without returning a somewhat crappy thing to do is the fact that your employer is paying you/your benefits/etc. while you’re on leave – basically, they’re paying you (partially through maintaining your benefits, or completely if you’re lucky, with continuing salary) during a time when you’re non-productive in exchange for your promised return, so entering into that bargain knowing you intend to renege on your end of the deal if at all possible is just bad faith.

      In your case, they’re not paying you anything at all on your leave, so there’s no bargain. You’re free to leave in that circumstance without guilt, in my book.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Why are you asserting that they are paying her in exchange for her promised return? If that’s not specified, it’s just as reasonable to assert that they are offering a benefit in exchange for her previous good work.

        1. Future Analyst*

          I agree with your thought that it’s a benefit for previous work performed– I’ve never heard of a company offering maternity benefits without a caveat that you must be there for x months/years before you can use said benefit. I always thought that individuals earned mat leave by putting in a good year (+) of work, not that they were preemptively using a benefit that they would then have to “pay back.”

        2. fposte*

          The term “mat leave” is not usually a US one, though, so Purple Monkey Dishwasher may be from Canada (or 190 other countries).

  7. Nervous Accountant*

    This is a rough one.
    I just got the worst email from my boss blasting me for my performance because of a client’s complaints.

    I admit I dropped the ball on the client, but the email was just so so so painful to read (that I’m the one who gets the most complaints from clients for not responding and my performance sucks).

    But I’m a little bothered by the email. What makes it worse is that it’s my day off so I have no idea if I should email her back or wait until I see her on Monday (IF I can even come back in on Monday).

    There have been times when clients cancelled, but a good number I would say had nothing to do with me–yet I still had to take the heat for it bc my name was attached. Even when I explained the situation to my boss and she says its fine, and even when the client says it has nothing to do with me personally, it comes up again like today’s email.

    I feel like no matter how well I do, my reputation is cemented since it was already bad when I was first hired. (apparently my last manager hated me and as a result the upper management couldn’t wait to get rid of me….even though I proved I wasn’t as bad as they said). When they made me the offer, she said she and upper mgmt were happy with my work.

    I have stuff going on in my personal life that sometimes makes it hard to concentrate this last month or so, but I know that’s not an excuse. Im on thin ice, and I’m scared I won’t make it at all. I feel like if I lose my job that’s going to affect the personal stuff and I’m afraid I’ll lose it if that happens.

    1. Anna*

      I’m sorry. That completely sucks. Would it be possible to email her back and ask if you can sit down with her on Monday to talk? It’s not like you don’t know your performance has been suffering so maybe sitting down with your manager to discuss what you can do to get back on track and develop a plan to check in X weeks later to evaluate how things have been going.

      PS Emailing you something like that is crappy for the exact reasons you described. You can’t address it with her head-on, you don’t know if you should respond, and it’s not the sort of news that should be delivered via email.

    2. Arjay*

      I’m sorry that you’re going through this. And for what it’s worth, that type of negative feedback should have been communicated to you face-to-face, not via email. I hope things work out for you, both personally and professionally.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      No advice, just commiseration. I’m with you.

      It was crappy of your boss to send you negative feedback on your day off. Unless the problem is so bad that it requires immediate damage control that she can’t take care of (and if I were your manager, it’d have to be REALLY bad to ask an employee to cancel time off to work on something), there was no reason for her not to have saved the email in her drafts folder or…you know…waited until Monday to have the conversation in person.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well she didn’t know it was my day off or didn’t remember. My manager-whom I work closely with–responded and reminded her. He said he would take care of it.

        It’s just weird cz a few weeks ago I was being asked to handle client emergencies so…idk.

        1. fposte*

          In most workplaces those wouldn’t be mutually exclusive, though. Wanting an employee to improve in some areas isn’t the same thing as considering them incapable of handling a client emergency.

          I don’t know what your boss said, but is it possible that felt like a “blast” but was feedback about stuff you should improve on? If so, that doesn’t mean you suck and you’re doomed; that’s a pretty standard part of the process for a new hire, even if she’d been there as a temp before.

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          Wait…your boss and your manager aren’t the same person? Who controls your reviews? If it’s your boss, and your manager likes your work, you may need to have a talk with your manager so that she knows to talk you up to the people who make the decisions.

    4. fposte*

      I’m sorry, NA. Bad feedback is always tough. I think you might consider responding today if you think it will help you put it aside for a few days. “Thank you for the information; I’m sorry to hear about the complaints and am keen to work to minimize them. Let’s talk about this when I’m back in the office next week.”

      I know you’re having a tough time at home too, but I think you’ll be better off if you can meet this head on and find ways to minimize slippage and dropped balls. Whatever structures you can create–checklists, task lists, calendars, to-dos–the better; leave as little as possible to the stressed mind. That makes you look better as well as work better, so it can help defray concerns whether they’re based on perceived or actual problems.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Agreed with this– I think it would be helpful to walk into a meeting with your boss with a plan for how you will address the concerns. If it’s a matter of responding more promptly to clients, set up time daily (or weekly, whichever is necessary) to respond to calls/emails, etc. Try to come up with some sort of solution to every issue she outlined, and ask for feedback and/or additional ideas of how to improve. Walking into a meeting like that with a desire to improve and a formalized plan to do so will be helpful for you both.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Ah, that sucks, it sounds like, as with lots of customer-facing jobs, you ended up as the scapegoat. I agree with Anna’s advice to ask your boss to talk about it Monday. Try not to let it hang over your weekend. :/

    6. LVL*

      First of all, I’m sorry to hear you are in such a tough position. In my opinion, I would write back and ask to set up a meeting with your boss next week to discuss the issue and specific, concrete things you can do to improve your performance. The best way to deal with situations like this is with honesty and to show your boss that you _want_ to change and that you recognize the issues. Can you tell your boss that you have personal issues going on? He or she may be a little bit more understanding. Perhaps you can ask what your colleagues do if they are frequently cancelled upon? How they deal with it and how they uphold the integrity of their appointments? I think this weekend, take some time to take care of yourself and think proactively about how your meeting will realistically go. Write down what your work-related problem,s are and a way that you can work to solve or fix each on of them. This shows a clear, concerted effort to improve your performance. Also think about going through the archives on AAM and finding letters from people who are in similar experiences and apply Alison’s advice to your own situation.

      In the end, take this as a learning experience and have faith that you will come out on top of this. In tough situations like this one are when the best lessons are usually learned. Hold your head high, and use this as a way to improve your performance and build your character and resilience.

    7. Katie the Fed*

      Well, I think it was kind of terrible for your boss to do this over email. These are conversations that need to be had, no matter how uncomfortable. Because tone and nuance don’t convey well in email.

      So – can you talk to your direct manager for now and ask what you should do, since he said he’d take care of it?

      I think maybe sit on it for a few days, and then a response like:

      “Thank you for the feedback. Obviously it was tough to read but do realize I could have done some aspects of Project Apple better. I’m planning on taking action (describe – working with your manager to figure out how to do something differently, etc) to ensure this doesn’t happen again.”

    8. Snoskred*

      I once received a written warning via my home email address, so I totally get how upsetting this must have been for you.. I’m so sorry this happened to you. :(

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Please consider your boss’ way of doing things. Does she ordinarily let clients yank her around emotionally? Is she usually a hot-head then it blows over?

      What about your manager? Is he more level headed? It sounds like he might have your back?

      I have to say this. Having my own version of a tense work place PLUS at home stuff going on I had to figure out a way to calm myself. One of the things I landed on was asking myself, “What is the worst that is going to happen here?” Of course, the answer is I get fired for some trumped up reason. I thought about that. I concluded that being fired was just a moment it was not something that went on and on for days/weeks/months. It’s a moment, then it is over. Whereas, the job, if I stayed working at it, WOULD be something that went on and on for days/weeks/months. Reality is that sometimes staying in a toxic workplace is WORSE than being fired. Firing is finite. I concluded that I wasn’t actually afraid of losing my job but, rather, I was afraid of keeping it.
      Once I correctly identified my fear, my backbone got a little stronger. (It sometimes works that way, once you correctly identify what you are afraid of you suddenly find yourself pulling together.)
      Own the parts you flubbed up and apologize. Stand up for yourself when you are falsely accused. And keep telling yourself, “I deserve better than this. I can and I will find a better job than this”.
      Your situation sucks, I am so sorry.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        No she’s actually very very sweet and nice. I’ve never seen her upset and none of her emails have been like this but I have heard of her sending scathing emails to others who are high producers and well liked as well so idk. Our company is very focused on customer service.

        My manager or team leader is great. He’s very nice (well everyone is) and is always there to help and I love working with him.

        Despite my posts here j really do love my job and love being here. The worst thing to happen will be to get fired and going through the job search all over again and dealing with a new environment.

        I always tell myself that I’ve been in many many worse jobs, always taken out of desperation (for $$ or to get away from home).

  8. Vanilla*

    I’ve been in marketing and PR for nearly 10 years. I’ve been working in healthcare for the last five. I’m thinking about going into medical or pharmaceutical sales and was wondering if anyone here has done this successfully.

    I’ve been told by several people that I would be fantastic at sales. Plus, I love the idea of not having a cap on my income. a lot of the marketing/pr jobs in my area don’t seem to make more than $60k a year, unless you’re c-level.

    1. Joey*

      Way easier to get in if have med/pharma sales or are an RN.otherwise you’re at a disadvantage.

      And just so you know there aren’t many jobs in pharma/med sales that are uncapped anymore. And the ones above 70k are highly competitive. My wife got in through a small business and took about 8 years (3 jobs) before she was able to compete at the best companies with the best salaries (meaning above 100k). Everything leading up was products that were for some reason really tough to sell or came with a lot of non sales work like service/admin/reporting/helping other product lines. Weirdly the “the apples/iphone’s” of the med/pharma world go to the best and most experienced sales folks.

      1. Vanilla*

        This is great info to know. What about other sales jobs/other industries? Do you have any insight you could share.

        1. Joey*

          A good entry point that I’ve seen is business development in home healthcare and durable medical equipment businesses. These are usually not very we’l l paying but not competitive either. My wife got in doing a sales/service for medical equiment. She was basically selling medical equiment to hospitals and maintaining the stock of those items in the hospitals. From there she went to sales of surgical equipment which included teaching surgical staff proper use, and finally now she just does the deals for hospital systems to buy and others do the implementation.

    2. Rachael*

      I recently spoke with a pharma salesperson, and they did say that it was tough to get in if you do not have previous pharma experience it was tough, but he had been able to do it (he had experience in magazine sales). I did an information interview with him, and sent him my resume which he sent to his boss. Nothing happened with it, but I would recommend that route. Good luck!

    3. Anomanom*

      I used to work in a niche industry whose salespeople were heavily recruited into pharma sales jobs. Totally and completely unrelated to health care – payroll and hr outsourcing services. I was told they targeted them though because they were one of the few groups who still knew how to cold call on businesses and could build relationships with long term clients (CPAs were a huge source of leads for us). They used to snag our people who were a few years in, and offer them substantially more money. Always sad for us to see them go, but happy for them for the opportunity.

      I think it would be key to emphasize the things you do that would align with those concerns. It also heavily depends on the market you are in.

  9. infj*

    When do you tell a potential employer that you are under a non-compete agreement? I took my agreement to an attorney and he said that it’s too broad to be enforced but because we’re in Pennsylvania a judge (if it came to that) would modify it to make it reasonable/enforceable (rather than tossing the whole thing). My instinct is to wait until I get an offer and then proceed from there.

    From my understanding, my employer has never tried to enforce a non-compete even when someone left and went to a direct competitor. But I certainly don’t want any surprises as I’m (hopefully soon) starting a new job.

    1. Jessa*

      Can you find out from the lawyer what parameters WOULD be enforceable? I mean get an idea as to whether it would mess you up with the new job at all before bringing it up? then you can at least discuss it on the “this is where the issue is,” axis instead of “I have no clue.” Also I think I’d not say anything til the offer stage, simply because A: it might not be an issue, and B: I think any employer is going to err on the side of taking you out of the running so as to not deal. So C: until/unless it becomes an actual issue, I’d leave it be. Because you also do not want (if you’re in a niche industry,) for people to talk about you amongst themselves and take you off everyone’s “hire this person” list due to a possibly irrelevant document.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        I don’t know about in that state, but my guess is that the attorney could only speculate on that. The attorney could say “here are limitations that have been upheld, and here are limitations that have found to be unreasonable, so at least this much but not that much.” These kinds of things are often fact- and industry-specific. But it wouldn’t hurt to ask.

    2. puddin*

      Deal with it if it becomes an issue. But know that the new employer may be very very nervous about the non-compete regardless of how sloppily it is written. You can be suspended (so to speak) until it is resolved or even fired if they get scared enough. They may ask you if it is common practice in the industry/position – of course be honest with your answer. Many times the non-compete can be worked around…For example, you are in a non-compete that states you cannot contact old clients within one year of leaving Old Company. Then for the next year, you train and prospect new clients. Or you can get very technical about it and prospect that same company, just with other people in other depts that may want to use your products and services.

      I was able to avoid either of the above scenarios by getting an ‘official’ lawyer statement to the Old Company telling them that they were in the wrong and specifically addressing why they were wrong and how it would not hold up in court. They agreed to dismiss the non-compete. But I only sent it after Old Company notified the New Company. It cost me about $200 in attorney fees.

      Been there, done that, lived to tell the tale.

      Use an attorney to make your final decision on what to do, this is just my slice of experience.

      Good luck with everything!

      1. infj*

        I was imagining doing something like an official lawyer statement. I think it would be a good strategy. But I, too, would want to wait to see what happened. I think that I would actually get a good reference out of CurrentJob in the future but sending something like that would definitely sour the relationship.

    3. little Cindy Lou who*

      I’m under a 2 year non-compete from my previous employer. When I got the verbal offer from my now current employer, I gave a copy to them for review and ran the position responsibilities by my previous one. The old place deemed it a non-conflict and the new one had their lawyers tailor the language in my offer letter a bit. Mine also had broad language but this arrangement made the process from verbal to written offer rather smooth, considering.

  10. Nobody Here By That Name*

    My DREAM job was just posted again. Previously it was posted for just a couple of days and then the listing was taken down. Now, about a month later, it’s been posted again and I was able to submit my resume and cover letter for it. Please please please let everything go well and let this work out for me.

      1. Nobody Here By That Name*

        I have but you make a good point. I’ll reread them just to remind myself. Thank you.

    5. Diddly*

      GOOD LUCK. Have a similar situation at the moment :)

      (In case you believe in astrology it’s Mercury Retrograde right now so stuff coming back from the past is more fortuitous than ‘new’ stuff, also communications and travel will be all over the place…)

    6. Elizabeth West*

      PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE

      There ya go. The universe tends to listen to me when I ask for other people. It never listens when I ask for myself! :P

      1. QualityControlFreak*

        Tell me what you want Elizabeth, and I’ll ask for you. Because you are awesome.

  11. Ali*

    I finally got good news the other day! I got an offer for a part-time pharmacy tech position…I’m just waiting for my background check to clear after I took the drug test yesterday. I actually got the offer e-mail when I was in NYC to interview for a full-time position!

    I do have to wait a couple weeks to hear how the NYC interview went, as I was among the first batch the hiring manager was talking to. She did seem impressed that I traveled from PA, though, and she said she would’ve been willing to have a phone call if she knew. But she accepted my answer of wanting to show I was serious about relocating to the area. I know not to read into anything…but any edge I can get is awesome.

    Woohoo!

    6. Lady Bug*

      After my boss fired a coworker he received a letter from the coworker saying he understood why he was fired and that Jesus still loved my boss. It was in boss’ home mailbox, not addressed, no stamp. Boss was creeped out.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      A woman I worked with punched a hole in a wall after she got fired. Another one wrote a half crazy/half awesome manifesto email on her way out. I hope you get more dramatic responses than mine; these are pretty tame.

      3. puddin*

        I imagine my exit interview will be an Alan Shore-esque monologue of wit, evaluation, and persuasive commentary. This would be my manifesto. But in reality I will probably just slink away leaving the broken pieces where they lay.

        I have a little bit of admiration for the gusto it takes to actually follow through with such an email – as kooky as it may be.

        1. MaryMary*

          When morale was really low at OldJob, I had a standing $50 offer to anyone who would quit Jerry Maguire style – manifesto, yelling for the entire office to hear on the way out, etc. Bonus $50 if they convinced anyone else to follow them, a la Renee Zellweger’s character. No one ever took me up on it, though.

          1. Spiky Plant*

            I worked somewhere where it was actually a bit common for someone to peace out with no notice, leaving an all-staff email behind them that, while mostly polite, had some very specific digs at specific people. And then the President would reply to those digs, again on all-staff. It was a bit of a shitshow. But always entertaining!

      4. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I once fired someone who punched the wall of my office as he was walking out. No hole was created but it was unnerving. Like to the point that I was on edge walking out to my car that evening. (For the record, he had been clearly and repeatedly warned and given clear benchmarks to meet in order to keep his job, which he had not met, and the firing was not a surprise.)

    2. Joey*

      Returning and keying the car he thought belonged to his manager- it wasn’t.

      Filing bogus EEOC complaints. Happened twice to me. Both were dead wood that wasn’t dealt with by the previous manager. Damn that was expensive, but definitly cheaper than having them here.

      1. Susan*

        Similar to the keying, someone scratched the f-word in giant letters onto the hood of a random person’s car.

    3. Nervous Accountant*

      Private or public? Privately I texted my “boss” begging for another chance (quotes bc I was there thru a temp agency). Public ally I cried.

          1. saro*

            But wouldn’t it be funny if it was her? Before I read AAM, I used to get into stand-offs with the police as a result of my work performance! :)

        1. Natalie*

          That’s actually all I know, related to that particular firing. The entire thing was kept very hushed, both in our office and in the small town where they lived. (Former co-worker had been a volunteer firefighter and thus knew most of the cops involved.)

    5. part of the machine*

      wow. I have a few, but this one was a gem.

      employee quits, and yells at boss in boss’s office. employee that busts in on several people having lunch in someone’s office and tells them that she quit, and leaves in a huff. then boss busts into the same office, and tells everyone that she is the boss, she fired employee, and can fire anyone if she wants. talk about toxic.

    6. Joie de Vivre*

      Worst reaction I’ve had was a very large angry man who tried to punch me in the face.
      He’d been on a PIP for his random temper outbursts – with colleagues, customers, managers, pretty much everybody he came in contact with – so I had been expecting an unpleasant reaction but I didn’t think he’d try to hit me.
      Fortunately, I saw it coming and ducked and had security in the termination meeting so they took it from there.

      2. BenAdminGeek*

        We recently interviewed someone who had told HR that he’d been fired from his last 3 jobs for anger issues. Then got all defensive and upset that we’d brought it up as topic during his interview. We decided to pass on him as a candidate…

          1. Big Tom*

            It makes me so happy to see (what I hope is) a “Help!” reference in your name.

    7. stellanor*

      I have a coworker who is Really Not Good at her job. She’s way slower than everybody else, she doesn’t understand parts of her work, and no matter how many times people explain those parts to her she does not pick it up. Or even improve. Apparently her manager has told her to ask for help when she needs it, because she asks for people’s help all the time… but she doesn’t want them to help her understand X or Y, she wants them to do it for her. (Inevitably what she needs help with is a part of her job that is very hard, or is tedious and time-consuming. So, crap nobody wants to do.)

      If you push back she CCs her manager and your manager on a big old whine about how she can’t do it by herself and she’ll just have to figure something out. If something goes wrong while you’re helping her with something she will place the entirety of the blame on you, even if it went wrong because of something she did, because you should have helped.

      I got raked over the coals in my last review for not following her around picking up her messes, because apparently my boss wants results more than she wants this person to learn to deal with her crap. So I know I have to make sure her incompetence does not impact her projects. What I don’t know is how to deal with my incredible burning frustration that this idiot still has a job even though other members of my team have to do 90% of it for her.

    8. Lillie Lane*

      Great question! A fellow summer student employee (we worked in agricultural research at a university) was let go because she would never show up on time. We even picked her up *at her house* much of the time on the way to our field site. Right after this, someone drove a car into the soybean field and completely destroyed the research plots, messing up the investigator’s study. However, we knew it must have been the employee and not some random vandalism because you wouldn’t possibly know about the plots unless you worked on the study.

      1. OriginalEmma*

        Wow. That’s incredible. I hope there were cameras in the field that you could ID the car and by extension, its driver and press charges for vandalism!

      2. potato battery*

        Ohhhh…as a researcher myself this is painful to think about. I would be SO PISSED if months of work were destroyed like that.

    9. Lucy*

      Guy comes out of HR manager’s office and starts knocking stuff off desks as he stalks up to his former manager and tells her to go f herself – HR manager forcibly grabs him and starts dragging him towards the elevator as the guy is screaming “good luck on this sinking ship!” Guy gets shoved into an elevator and everybody is just kind of sitting there, stunned.

      This was at 8:30 in the morning, btw.

    10. fposte*

      A small adjacent one: I was cc:ed on a furious dramatic rambling email because I had spoken pleasantly with the employee and she apparently believed I would be totally on her side. (She was wrong.)

    11. nona*

      A tl;dr flounce email. I’m not sure if it was a layoff or a firing.

      This guy had apparently been watching everyone else’s work – outside of his department! – and compiling a list of things he thought were errors. Lol. It’s still in my “best of” folder, actually.

    12. Malissa*

      At one job we had a lady who would just not leave. She sat at her desk until the police were called and she was arrested for trespassing.

      1. tango*

        Ok, that made me laugh. As if refusing to leave means she still has a job. Kind of like we’re not broken up if I refuse to leave your house after you tell me we’re over.

    13. Gene*

      Two

      1) Low level lab person (think technical dishwasher) got fired for many reasons and started calling everyone in Public Works at home to lobby to get his job back. He even called the Mayor.

      2) Coworker in the next office literally peed her pants when she was let go. Stood there with it running down her legs, puddling (autotext tried to change that to piddling :-) ) around her feet. After she squelched out we had to call Facilities for an emergency carpet cleaning.

      1. tango*

        Ok, was that involuntary peeing from shame/anger/strong emotion or do you think it was intentional? I mean we had the guy poop in the potted plant at a job interview, I would not put it past someone to pee on the floor on purpose if let go as a major F You.

        2. Gene*

          I honestly don’t think it was planned, though I wouldn’t put that past her. That’s the office I will be moving into since the coworker who had it after her is the one who died.

          Memories!

        1. fposte*

          They’re all kind of sad, really, even if they do make interesting stories. People do all kinds of stuff when they feel like they’re falling off a cliff. I just read the Jon Ronson book about shame, So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed, and there’s a lot in there about how primal the fear of shame and reaction to feeling it is, and I think a lot of firings end up in this category.

          1. Turanga Leela*

            Yeah. I’m taking comfort in the fact that I know lots of people who have been fired, and after the initial shock, they’ve all been fine. It feels devastating at the time, but you don’t get to see the aftermath when people have recovered. (And I’ve been avoiding the Jon Ronson book because public shaming is high on my personal list of fears, and the excerpts I’ve seen have bothered me a lot.)

            1. fposte*

              Because of the examples he talks about, I’m guessing? He’s quite sympathetic to the shame recipients–in fact, one chapter is matching one up with a business that counteracts a big-shaming web moment.

          2. GOG11*

            Yeah. An older gentleman who was let go from my current employer committed suicide shortly after. He was pretty close to retirement I think. He was one of many to be let go in that round of layoffs :(

            1. I'm a Little Teapot*

              God, that’s awful. I understand his reaction; I’ve considered suicide after being fired myself, more than once. :( It really feels like you’ll never get another job, you’re a worthless person, and your life is over. I think our system of hiring really hinders people from moving on after their screwups (or their having a terrible boss), with all the emphasis on resumes and references rather than skills testing. People often talk about how people with felony convictions shouldn’t be punished for the rest of their lives, but what about people who’ve been fired?

      3. Elder Dog*

        I know of someone who peed into the engine intake of an annoying co-worker’s sports car, but that was a general expression of annoyance, not over a firing. The co-worker had the car into the shop six or seven times over the following couple months because it “smelled like something died in there”.

    14. some1*

      Literally during a round of layoffs (people were called into HR one by one and everyone knew what was going on) someone (not yours truly some1) spread poo all over the wall in the ladies room.

      1. TL -*

        ..I don’t understand being angry and going for bodily excretions as the expression of it. That has never occurred to me when I’m angry – what is the thought process there?

    15. Spondee*

      We had a woman drunk dialing half the office for several days after being fired. She’d dial someone’s extension and start crying about how she thought she’d work with our company for the rest of her career, and her manager was a snake, and what was she supposed to do now?

      It was so pathetic that people were afraid to hang up on her, and it was an open office, so we all knew when someone had her on the phone. Eventually, our admin got worried enough that she called someone to go check on her – I forget if she called the local police or the woman’s emergency contact, but the calls stopped soon after.

      2. Jen RO*

        On the same note: Got fired for sexual harassment and generally being crap at his job. Called the manager a year later to ask if there are any jobs available.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      Can’t be too specific so just a general idea. Employee was not doing well with the job. He knew this. Finally, it reached a point where he had to be fired. Boss brought him in the office and told him. Employee seemed to take it okay and left. Came back in with a weapon. Held Boss in the office for several hours because NO ONE NOTICED.
      They chatted this entire time. Employee had several serious life issues going on and the boss was empathetic. FINALLY the police arrived and the boss opted not to press charges. I guess Employee agreed to get help. He did not get his job back, though.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        It’s really really good that the boss managed to not escalate the situation. I’ve been in a weird situation where I knew if I did anything I’d be in trouble. It’s extremely difficult to stay calm under those circumstances.

        I hope the employee is better now.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It is difficult to stay calm. Boss got lucky because the employee wanted to talk with someone. He really did not want to hurt anyone. You must have handled your situation well, too, because you are still here. Thank goodness! Brrrr… these types of stories send a chill up my spine.

    18. MaryMary*

      This is not really a firing story, but I think you all may appreciate it. Upon finding out her office BFF was quitting (voluntarily, BFF found a better job – more money and a promotion), one of my coworkers dramatically packed up her desk and talked loudly about how all the good people were being pushed out, and she wasn’t going to stay here and be overworked and underappreciated until she got pushed out. She then stomped out of the building and left for the day.

      Yeah, she still works here.

    19. Anonforthis*

      She threatened to bomb the workplace. I wasn’t her coworker but I had mutual friends on facebook and she tagged everyone she knew and went crazy threatening to bomb everyone, that she had unlimited access to weapons, and that she wouldn’t be their servant anymore. She got over the loudspeaker and told all the customers to get out since there was a bomb. She also knocked over the water machine, screamed at customers, and tried to steal a car (it was a car dealership). I worked in the prosecutor’s office and got her case file on my desk for data entry as an added bonus.

      Now she’s done with probation and the head of a non-profit for children with illnesses. Turns out her young daughter had an illness that will be with her the rest of her life and mom kind of went crazy in reaction to it. I understand it now but at the time everyone was all o.O at the situation. She was the kind of girl who always got in fights in school so we weren’t that surprised but it was over the top, even for her. Now she’s so chill it’s almost scarier.

    20. Cath in Canada*

      There was a story from my grad school lab about a Chinese scientist who brought his own Chinese government funding with him, and would work silently at his bench in the corner, interacting with no-one. One day some guys showed up from the Chinese embassy in black suits, sunglasses, and radio headsets and escorted him silently out of the building. No-one ever saw him again.

      This was a few years before my time, but people were still speculating about it!

    21. Elder Dog*

      Burnt the place down. After it was nearly rebuilt, burnt it down again. Couldn’t prove it in court.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Just because they wanted to move her because of excessive absences. Wow. I can see that she did not realize it would get so far out of hand, but I don’t think that lessens the fact that she thought this was okay to do.

    22. CTE 08-8F NAV*

      The worst I ever personally witnessed, I only saw the aftermath: it was an older fellow, not far shy of retirement, and the manager set aside Friday afternoon to let this person know that he was being let go. I guess the manager thought it was going to go smoothly – but it did not (from what I knew of this manager, I can’t say I’m surprised) – and so this person had to be ‘removed’ from the building by security, and I was one of the people who got tapped to pack up his office stuff on Monday.

      It was extremely sad, bordering on depressing, because this person had been with the company for over 25 years, had numerous awards and stuff, and for whatever reason, he wasn’t allowed to retire pleasantly with fond memories of working for the company. I’m sure this “incident” at the end will haunt his retirement years.

      1. Steve G*

        IDK how these things work in other companies, but it would have been nice if they discussed the possibility of early retirement with him and gave him a lump sum of cash to retire…..that is really a long time to be at one place and be asked to leave like that. Being laid off during a huge restructure/takeover at a company I was at for “only” 5 years is still giving me serious anxiety 5 months later…I keep thinking about all of the good things I did there, and why I am not there but people who did less than me still are, and it is a hard loop to get out of once your mind goes there………..

    23. Beezus*

      Someone Mr. Beezus fired wrote a two-page letter blasting him and faxed it…to the manager of another company who, alongside my husband’s company, provided services to the same big client. I have no idea what he was trying to accomplish.

      The gist of the letter was that Mr. Beezus is a mean, mean man who holds people accountable for doing their jobs and has actually raised his voice and yelled at someone for being grossly insubordinate. The person who received the letter shared it with the client (the client wanted the man fired to begin with for other reasons, wasn’t aware of the insubordination issues, and was even happier to see him gone).

      The cherry is that, for some reason, the guy still lists Mr. Beezus as a job reference.

        1. Beezus*

          I guess it’s still his most recent job, and Mr. Beezus was his only boss, so he’s putting his contact info down on applications that require contact info for previous bosses, but yeah, it’s kinda surprising still.

    24. INTP*

      Mine is pretty boring compared to most of these, but she replied all to an email to the entire BUILDING (including 8 floors of companies other than ours) to say “Hey, I turned my keys in” instead of to our receptionist.

    25. lawsuited*

      When I worked at a jewellery store in university, a co-worker was fired and responded by grabbing a ring as she was leaving the store and trying to run away with it in her 4 inch heels. She was apprehended by mall security almost immediately. It was truly bizarre.

    26. Felicia*

      I was a student worker at the time, and my boss was firing a fellow student worker who never did what he was asked to do by the time he was told to do it and couldn’t grasp fairly simple processes after three months, that all 9 other student workers grasped n the first week. He threw a stapler at my manager’s face, who luckily moved out of the way quick enough. I was sitting just outside the manager’s office and he threw a book across the room as he left. I was a little terrified, so I imagine it was w orse for my manager. It did look like she was about to cry after that and I offered to contact security for her.

    27. AsAnonymousAsHumanlyPossible*

      A high level employee at a place I used to work (think VP reporting directly to CEO kind of deal) was fired personally by the CEO, got into a screaming match with said CEO that lasted an hour, and then had what, at the time, looked like an episode related to VP’s extremely high blood pressure (which brought the yelling portion of the day to an end and led to the storming out in a huff as soon as he could breathe again portion of the day), but that we later found out (through a co-worker who knew VP socially) was actually a minor heart attack.

    28. Revanche*

      1. X dumped water on all the computers in the back room and then logged back into the system to undo the day’s work later that night because my bosses were idiots about system security.

      2. Y stormed out in a rage making threats about how he’d “get you back for this!” and a week later threw a party inviting all the coworkers so he could bitch about how unfair the firing was, bragging about the things he did that got him fired as if they were heroic deeds.

      I’m pretty happy that I didn’t see those people again.

    29. Jane*

      There’s a really spectacular one from Yosemite National Park. A kid on a trail crew knew he wasn’t going to be asked back the following summer so he decided to manufacture an emergency that he could be the hero of on the hopes that he would then be able to keep his job. He lit the stables in Yosemite Valley on fire so that he could save the horses. Instead he passed out from the smoke, killed several horses, and burned down several buildings including the Search and Rescue cache. He survived. To top it all off, they needed the equipment in the search and rescue cache that week and ended up having to get a whole bunch of rope sent up from the LA area in order to rescue climber with a broken leg off of one of the big walls.

    30. Florida*

      A few years ago, there was an engineering firm in town that fired someone. A few days later, he walked into the office and started shooting at people. He killed at least one person.

      This year in another situation, a pastor was firing a janitor. At the termination meeting, the janitor pulled out a gun and fired it. The pastor returned fire with his own gun. No one was killed in that one. I guess the janitor went home that night and told his wife, “I got fired today at work, so I fired right back.”

      I probably don’t need to mention that both of these events happened in Florida.

    32. Crazy Diamond*

      A dining room manager was fired, came back the next night and dropped his pants in the dining room in the middle of dinner. He was told that if he left right away, the police would not be called.

  13. Hellanon*

    Just a drive-by to say thanks to AAM and all of you here – this week I was offered (and accepted! yay!) a fulltime/exempt position at my college. I fully credit all the great advice on negotiating & managing up I’m been absorbing from you all the last few months – the college has been shedding rather than adding fulltime faculty in recent years, and while hard work was certainly part of it, *smart* work was, I think, what made the difference… so again, thanks!

  14. Bekx*

    I need some advice about motivation.

    So, I like my job a lot. The work is good, and I enjoy going to work.

    But I’m not good at working without deadlines. If you give me a project and say it needs to be done tomorrow, I will do it with flying colors. If you give me a project and tell me “Oh, whenever you have time” I will procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate. I’ve tried to give myself fake deadlines and it just….doesn’t work. I’ve been like this my entire life.

    Any advice? I’m struggling with this now, and my boss is starting to pressure me about the projects I’ve been letting slide.

    1. Dawn*

      If you’re being pressured then it sounds like someone, somewhere, has a deadline for that project. I would start by pushing a little harder when you’re told “Oh, whenever”- Ok so is that OK whenever as long as it’s by next month, OK whenever as long as it’s in this fiscal quarter, or OK whenever as in if it never gets done at all no one will care?

      For the record I, too, am like this as well and I still struggle with it!

    2. GOG11*

      Do you feel comfortable bringing this up to your manager? If so, maybe you could frame it as giving you additional context to prioritize rather than an issue with you/a performance quirk (though I think it’s a completely legit strategy to allow the pressure of a deadline push you to do your best). If you get quite a few projects/tasks with vague or unknown deadlines, it can be challenging to know how to prioritize.

    3. Woo!*

      I’m just like this. Don’t have an answer though. And I don’t think that you can ask for deadlines, because then your boss or whoever will wonder why you can’t just take initiative yourself.

    4. Delyssia*

      I empathize. I am totally a deadline-driven person. The one thing that helps me accomplish non-deadline things in my current job is that *most* of my job is deadline-based, so when I have downtime, that could be my only chance for weeks to work on some of those “when you get to it” tasks. Of course, it still takes me longer to do them than it would if there were a hard deadline…

      Have you tried making the fake deadlines a little more real by setting up times to review progress with your boss?

      1. Bekx*

        See, I didn’t include this…but during downtime I do find myself slacking a little bit. Maybe checking my phone a bit more….AAM….I know, I know, it’s so bad!!

    5. Anna*

      I get explicit. I tell people I work better with a deadline, so even if they have an arbitrary one just give it to me. Seriously, it works for me because I procrastinate. And not that I want to excuse behavior you’d like to change, but sometimes that’s part of your process. If you’re getting the work done, it’s not poorly done, and it gets to the person within their reasonable expectation of when it should be done, you’re actually doing all right.

    6. Joie de Vivre*

      I’m the same way.
      I reply to any ‘whenever you have time’ requests with “I should be able to get this to you by X date. Does that work?”. Makes my deadlines real because I’ve set an expectation with the requestor.

      1. TFS*

        I do exactly this (with pretty much exactly the same wording) and it’s seriously the only way I would ever get those projects done.

      3. afiendishthingy*

        Yeah, telling somebody else the deadline I think is reasonable is the only way I keep myself accountable. It’s so hard.

      4. Bea W*

        I work better with deadlines also and doubly so because I have so many things on my plate that if someone tells me “whenever you have time” that project is likely to just not see the light of day unless it is super awesome exciting and I just can’t help myself. Because of that it has become necessary to nail down some kind of time frame for every request, including the “urgent but no deadline” ones. You can’t tell me it’s “urgent”. I need to know how urgent it is to be able to prioritize it among all of my other deadlines. Is it EOB urgent? Tomorrow? Next week? Is it really a month from now? (some people exaggerate the urgency or mistake importance for urgency.)

        I have had to resort to telling reluctant timeline setters the way this works. If there’s no real deadline, make one up. Surely you need this thing done at some point, otherwise you wouldn’t be asking someone to do it. If I do it early, awesome! If I find I can’t do it in that amount of time, we can always revisit. It’s not set in stone, and no one is inconveniencing me by making up deadlines. Some people are reluctant to set any timeline because they know I am so busy. I tell them because I am so busy it is best to give me some kind of timeline for the request or it will just not get done. There is never a time where I’m lacking for things to do. I never get to no-deadline stuff at bottom of my to-do list.

        I also have a number of ongoing tasks which do not have hard deadlines, but are necessary and really important to do. Leaving them for very long means I’m likely putting out some fire months down the road. This year I started setting aside one day a week to work on these tasks, which were previously getting shoved to the back burner due to not having deadlines and piling up. It has made a HUGE difference for me. I am getting these things done, and no longer stress over them piling up. They are not taking away from the other work with even urgent deadlines the way they could when left to accumulate to critical mass. I have been consistent about sticking with this.

        My manager has asked a few times if I could spare that one day here or there or let these things go a month, and my answer after starting this has been emphatically “No!”. A month of accumulation is too much to be able to do in one day. I can’t squeeze 4 days worth of work into 1 or 2 days. That accumulation also has an impact on my co-workers. They get backlogged waiting on my backlog. Questions go unanswered. Issues go unresolved. I have also found that we’ve had a habit of putting these things aside and putting them aside again saying “Oh there’s no deadline, it can wait.”, but it really can’t wait. The longer it goes, the more work piles up until someone says OMG!!!!! We have to get all of this done NOW!!! Why is there so much backlog???!” Then I have to drop everything for a week to catch up, and that pushes out other deadlines or means I’m working long hours. This is pretty tedious stuff too. Having to to tedious things for days on end just make it that much harder to slog through it. It just was not working for me.

        My co-workers who end up impacted by allowing this stuff to get backlogged really like it too. It makes their jobs easier. It’s really win-win. One of my co-workers on another project has started to do the same at least part of one day a week. She finally making it through her backlog being able to tackle it a little at a time on a regular basis.

    7. lawsuited*

      There are obviously deadlines for your projects because your boss is asking for previous projects that are now “past due”. Your boss is probably trying to be nice by saying “whenever you have time” but still has an internal expectation of when it should be done , whether that’s 2 weeks or 3 months or whatever. You need to push back to get a sense of what the expectation is, and make that your deadline (because if that’s when your boss expects it, that is the deadline). When your boss gives you a project and says “get it done whenever”, ask “is X days/weeks/months okay?” and read the reaction. Even if it’s a deadline you suggest, if you agree to it with your boss, you’ll respect it much more than a deadline you make up in the abstract.

    8. OriginalYup*

      Would it to publicly commit to a deadline? Like if you’re given a project, ask for deadline and the response is “whenever,” and then you reply with an email saying, “Great, I’ll have it to you by Friday / June 30 / end of the quarter.”

    9. Bekx*

      Thanks guys! Talking to my manager about a firm date is awesome advice. She and I are really close, so I feel comfortable talking to her about it. I think she just knows that I have super fast turnaround for most things, so her way of telling me to not worry about getting it done today, means that I procrastinate.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Also, can you break tasks down further and set deadlines for those mini-tasks? I’m a horrible procrastinator and the stricter the deadlines and more discrete the tasks the better I am.

    10. IndianSummer*

      Everyone is giving you super advice. I have the same problem as you, and right now I feel like I have absolutely zero work to do. I maybe have two back burner projects I should work on, but I have no motivation to do them.

    11. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

      I don’t really have any advice, but I can empathize anyway. I’m a procrastinator. I have poor time management skills. I’m not proud of that fact, but I think it’s a personality flaw that I doubt I’ll ever fully change. The best I can do is try to make improvements. I’ve often found that when I’m at work, I can focus on work. When I’m at home and I have things I need to do (laundry/cleaning/whatever else), it’s hard to just stay focused and get things done. I procrastinate. I get distracted. These are typically things that need to get done, but not by any specific time. I work better under pressure sometimes, but then I don’t handle stress well. I suck at estimating how much time I’ll need to do a certain task. I could never telecommute because I would definitely be less productive at home.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      There is a theory that says, “If you want something bigger/better in life you MUST do what is in front of you NOW. You will not be given bigger/better if you do not finish the real tasks that are currently in front of you.”

      Oh my. I find this to be so true. It’s the person who completes their work that gets the perks, the desirable tasks that everyone wants. It’s the person who seems to be on top of their work load that gets the extra work where they learn more and more about the job. Annnd they sometimes get to work with people that they would not have otherwise worked with and they get benefits from that exposure.

      Sometimes things come up in life or on the job that either we are ready for, or we are not ready for. If we are not ready then the ship sails without us. Opportunity lost and the loss could have been prevented.

      1. Bea W*

        Not in my job at the moment. It’s the nature of the beast. We have a backlog of crappy tasks, and that’s what you’ll be working on if you find yourself idle. :/

        But this is totally true. That downtime allows you to seek out better and more interesting tasks and pick up different work you might not otherwise do because someone else really needs the help and you are the one available. Or you might think of something you could improve and show off your skills which will lead to other work being assigned to you. “Wakeen did such a terrific job coming up with a new handle cataloging system, other departments are asking if they can set up a similar system.” (Wakeen gets farmed out to other departments and learns new and interesting things about the other parts of the teapot process.)

    13. Former Usher*

      Thanks for posting this question! I’m finding myself in a similar situation with a few hard deadlines which I enthusiastically meet or beat, and lots of “no hurry, just when you get a chance” requests. I’ll be copying and pasting this thread for future reference.

  15. sprinkles!*

    If your manager recommended an external position to you, would you apply?

    Ive been applying for internal positions for about a year – lots of interviews but nothing resulting in a job offer. I’ve been looking externally as well but of course I’ve never mentioned this to my manager or anyone else I work with. My current position has changed a lot in the past year and as a result of business needs changing, I have very little work to do. I’ve been assured by upper management that I will eventually have work to do and they are not eliminating my position, but I do best when I’m really busy.

    My manager approached me about an external position last week. Her close friend works for a company that is looking for someone with my skills set and she wants to recommend me. Thoughts?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’d go check it out at any rate.
      If you still feel uneasy about it, ask your boss why she is doing this random act of kindness. Listen to her explanation. It might become apparent to you that this is real/solid and you should go for it.

      My uncle was a manager in a fairly well-known company for his area. He used to say the way to retain people is to show them where else they can go to find work. He felt that what happens is people get to really seriously thinking this move through and in most cases decide not to make the move. He did this because he wanted employees, not hostages. People who feel trapped are very unhappy people. My uncle’s department had very low turn over and it the pay was not that fantastic. They wanted to work for my uncle.

      Currently, my boss shows me job openings every so often. Yeah, it makes me more picky about where I apply. It makes me think about what I am doing.

  16. Dress Code Violator*

    In “Alison’s Advice Is Always Right” news, please, managers, if there is a problem with some of your employees, a mass email to all employees chastising them will not solve the problem. It only makes good employees paranoid and it makes everyone wonder who the email is really about. Just talk to the employees!

    Related, clients and customers, please don’t refuse to give the names of the people you’re complaining about. You’re just dooming the rest of us to mass shame-mails. No one wants that.

    2. Jessa*

      Oh, and to add – please do not make some restrictive annoying rule for every single person in a 100 person department, rather than tell Jo that their clothing choices are inappropriate.

      Can you tell I really hate places that punish everyone when one person is being a pain?

    3. Jake*

      +1

      All it does is demoralize the people not Causing the problem because it is clear that either management is not aware of the scope of the problem, so they assume it is everybody, or they don’t have the management skills necessary to actually deal with the problem.

    4. Camellia*

      And invariably, the person to whom the chastisement really applies never for a moment imagines it could be about them! And therefore they continue doing what-ever-it-is.

      1. Florida*

        Yes! This is the worst part of those emails. The perpetrator never suspects that he’s the problem.

    5. AllyR*

      Yes – our project director sent an email around this week stating our working hours and how people have been seen leaving early/slacking off/using the internet. Totally diminished how hard we have all been working. Yes I’m sure some people take advantage but speak to them privately!! I don’t see him work 70 hours a week, or working night shifts!

  17. Brett*

    Friday already. Been working all week on National Day of Civic Hacking (our city is doing it early) and not had a chance to read much of anything here.
    It will be the last day of a 2 year run for me as a Code for America Brigade captain. Going to be weird suddenly having so much free time.

    1. S*

      !!! My former workplace is a huge fan of Code for America, Civic Hacking, etc. So cool to have someone on the comments who’s involved.

  18. matcha123*

    There’s someone new in my office who I could kind of call a temp. A coworker suddenly quit two weeks ago and we are trying to get the “temp” accustomed to our work.

    I’m trying to find the best balancing act for helping her to understand the workplace and just as important, how to get along with our team. The person that left was very competent, but she would often take time off… calling out sick an hour before work, leaving an hour or two early saying she was ill, heavy sighing when getting annoying tasks. None of these really affected me, but they contributed to a bad impression of her by other coworkers and caused a lot of stress for them.

    Now, I know people on this site are more of the “if you have pto, you should be able to take it whenever you like” mode of thought, and while I agree to an extent, this isn’t the US and as much as we could possibly cut out of work early or come in late or do whatever as long as the work is done in the US, that doesn’t fly here.

    The new person is American, like me, and I’m very sure that my coworkers want me to guide her. If you were in her position would you want to hear, “Don’t sigh because it pisses Tanaka-san off,” or, “Your penmanship is horrible, write better,” “Make your personality the opposite of June’s, “etc. Again, this isn’t the US and many styles that would fly in America would not fly here…

    1. GOG11*

      Unless the person who is coming in has asked for tips, I think giving her a bunch of non-work-related stuff would come off as odd. Just because Former Coworker sighed a lot or wrote illegibly doesn’t mean that New Coworker will. Additionally, if it isn’t linked directly to the job, it can seem oddly controlling to want to dictate these types of behaviors (again, especially if she hasn’t asked for that sort of information).

      If there are specific, work-culture items that are in play there that wouldn’t be in most American work places AND you have reason to believe that this person is unaware of these dynamics (first job outside of America), I think a heads up about certain behaviors would be helpful. Anything beyond that, though, and I don’t think it’s necessary or that there’s a good chance it will be well received.

      1. Jessa*

        Given the “Tanaka-san,” in the original question, in this case it might be a good idea for an assimilated American coworker to sit down with NewWorker and give them a cultural heads up. I’m going to take a fairly safe guess and say this is happening in Japan where the culture is very different to America about what is acceptable at work. If nothing else, go to the US State Dept site, or Emily Post’s business Etiquette, and find one of those “tips for US businesspersons going to Japan,” and have them read it. Bad first impressions last a LONG time, and in some cultures are nigh impossible to overcome. There are a huge number of sites for people doing business in foreign countries, it’d be a kindness to make sure NewWorker is familiar with them before they kill their reputation abroad.

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          Yes, I’ve prepared briefers for execs traveling abroad. There is a lot of info out there, and a lot of cultural nuances that you really wouldn’t be able to intuit on your own.

      2. AnonArch*

        I had someone training me before whose guidance was legitimately focused on what not be (like 2 specific people who were currently in the office and the person I replaced) as opposed to the things I should be doing to go along with office culture. I had a really negative view of the staff and even though nothing really happened while I was there, I kept expecting the toxic workplace ball to drop at any moment. It’s better to just be positive in your training and honest without tearing others down (even if they don’t work there anymore).

      3. matcha123*

        I’ve given her a lot of work related information and she’s great at asking questions. At the same time, there are things that she might think are perfectly acceptable to do, say, looking at her phone outside of lunchtime, that would rub people the wrong way. Now, she hasn’t done anything like that, but if she did, no one would say anything to her.
        You might think they are in the wrong for not speaking up, but the culture is not confrontational in that way. What’s important here, as much as doing your job well, is observing the behavior of others and modeling your behavior after the “right” model…

        1. TL -*

          You can ask her how comfortable she feels with assimilating into the culture and mention that there were a few tricky things that took you a while to pick up and you’d be happy to share with her if she wanted. Point out positive examples for her to follow, tell her specific behaviors to avoid, and don’t use workers in the office as negative examples.

        2. Beezus*

          It’s odd to me, that you’re comfortable with being proactively direct with her about things she shouldn’t do, that she hasn’t done yet. I understand that the culture there is non-confrontational and most of the office seems to be that way, but you sound like you’re comfortable with being direct, so could you speak with her afterward if you see her doing something she shouldn’t, or if you hear something from one of your less-direct colleagues?

          1. matcha123*

            I am quite bad at being direct. And I can never tell when I should jump in in a way that doesn’t sound rude and doesn’t seem like I’m biding my time waiting for her to slip up.

    2. Anna*

      I don’t understand. Is the temp doing the sighing and taking time off or was that the person the temp is replacing? I don’t think it’s a good idea to approach a new person with a list of things the old person used to do that would bug people. It will make the temp feel like they have to walk on eggshells constantly. If he or she does ever sigh, they’ll spend the rest of the day paranoid they’ve irritated someone. Better to just let the temp get comfortable and if there are behaviors specific to the temp, you should address them. I would also say not to approach anyone with the “don’t sigh so much, it’s annoying” approach. Deep sighs are indicative of something else, like an overall bad attitude about tasks they don’t want to do and that’s actually what needs to be addressed.

      1. matcha123*

        This person is taking over for the person who left suddenly. The person that left would sigh a lot. This person, the temp, was pulled from a different office while they work on getting someone in permanently. However, this is an incredibly busy time of year for us. This year especially.

        Personally, I sigh deeply because I often hold my breath and don’t notice it.
        I think my coworkers want her to feel welcomed, but there are a lot of things they are particular about.

          1. matcha123*

            Well, they’ll still work with us. However, it will be from their original office. There were projects we had to work on before she came, but this is the first time she’ll be working on the same team in the same office.

            Since she’ll be here during our busiest and most stressful time, I want to give her a big heads up on the things she can avoid. Which will make my coworkers live her and in turn boost the whole group dynamic.

    3. Arjay*

      It would be great if you could help her learn some of the unspoken norms. That said, I think your examples could be phrased less confrontationally. “Try to avoid sighing audibly as Tanaka-san sees that as disrepectful.” “We use a lot of handwritten documents here, and it’s important to management that they are neat and visually pleasing, as well as accurate.” Or whatever works best – I’d just soften the language of “it pisses him off” and “horrible” penmanship.

      1. matcha123*

        That’s doable. I’ve been trying to keep things as neutral as possible, explaining how seemingly innocent actions could be interpreted differently.
        And, it’s not that sighing is off-limits, it’s more of a trigger due to the actions of another employee. I feel like I should explain the back story, and I’m wondering if it comes off as too gossipy.
        As a totally made up example: “Please go to the bathroom to blow your nose,” vs. “Tanaka-san has a thing about people blowing their noses. Jake who used to sit at your desk would blow his nose, nibble at the boogers and then go around touching things. He got everyone sick. While I’m sure you won’t do that, if you could excuse yourself when you need to blow your nose, oh, and wash your hands, that’d be great… At least for now. “

        1. Natalie*

          I think you should split the difference – it’s worth knowing that Tanaka-san, specifically, hates it when people blow their nose around him, but the new employee doesn’t need to know all the gory details of the last person who didn’t and why Tanaka-san hated them. That’s the part that sounds gossipy.

    4. INTP*

      I would want the brutally honest tips. I think some that you posted could be phrased more diplomatically (i.e. instead of “Make your personality the opposite of June’s,” “In this company they really value X, Y, and Z personality traits and seem to penalize A, B, and C. I know it’s silly, but you may want to try to adjust how you come across.”) It doesn’t all have to be phrased like it’s critical of her or other coworkers (like June’s personality is bad or Tanaka-san is a petty sigh-hater). Just “Okay, here are some things I have learned as a fellow American are appreciated/hated in this culture.” But even if you aren’t good at phrasing things diplomatically, I’d rather hear the brutal undiplomatic advice than none at all.

  19. nona*

    I was going to complain about my job* BUT I might get out soon! I had an interview on Tuesday!!

    *my phone tried to autocomplete that phrase with: life, future, hair

    thx

  20. part of the machine*

    When you work is less than stellar staff, how do you handle the having to apologize for their mistakes part?

    I work at a large office, and I am the outward facing/client facing role. I do not get to do everything related to the client’s file as quickly or as accurately as I want due to how my office is organized (I have to send stuff to other folks to carry the ball and carry out tasks, and I cannot change this).

    I find myself in the position where sometimes a client is angry that something didn’t get done, and they turn to me, because I am the outward facing/client facing role. I often investigate and find out that person y or z didn’t do their part correctly, which means that I have to do it myself or fix it or send a nasty email asking that it be done NOW. And then I have to save face. This often means that I feel the obligation to either apologize (and suck it up, take one for the team, not call out the specific person who dropped the ball/made the error) or not apologize and explain our office structure and who dropped the ball, and what is being done to fix it.

    What’s the best way to handle those types of interactions?

    P.S. This irks me so that I am looking to leave, but I can’t quite yet. I am not senior enough to challenge/change the structure. But this is clearly one of the worst parts of my job, and I hate it, because it makes me feel like I need to follow up on everything (not possible), create arbitrary deadlines to get stuff done (so that I can be sure that it’s getting done, because staff can’t manage their workload appropriately), and/or ????

    1. Kara Ayako*

      I once managed a team that was like this, and my rule was that you NEVER bad mouth specific people. You, as the client-facing person, are ultimately responsible for that client’s experience, and if they didn’t have a good experience, you own it and apologize. Surely you can understand why they’re upset, and a little empathy will go a long way here. But something like “oh, I know, I’m just as frustrated as you are; this was so-and-so’s responsibility and she really dropped the ball and there was nothing I could do about it and isn’t she terrible?” will reflect poorly both on your company and on you.

      I understand that it’s not your fault, but it’s your job.

      This is definitely something you should talk to your manager about.

      1. part of the machine*

        Thank you.

        Yeah, I know that you are right. It just really tough when you feel like you are doing this often, and you put out a stellar work product, but your colleagues/staff don’t and you’re often (at least monthly) apologizing for their mistakes.

        I kinda did a version of both this week. I explained where the ball got dropped, and fixed the error immediately (which meant having to drop everything and deal with it– 2 hours of my time). I also pointed out the issue to the person who dropped the ball and had them deal with it right now as well. I didn’t specifically call the person out with the client, but I did say that “position” didn’t do their part which is why it happened.

        I have had positions where this part of the job didn’t bother me. I trusted my colleagues. They worked hard to produce good work, and I would not mind occasionally (maybe 1X quarterly or less) apologize for an error that they made. It just gets more personally frustrating to me when it happens more often.

        1. TL -*

          Sometimes I just say there’s a glitch in the system that we’re still working out, or something along those lines – you can still do it and apologize but you’re not blaming a person or position, e.g., I’m so sorry about this! We’re still trying to work out a smooth system for processing orders and clearly this is an area we need to work on.

          1. part of the machine*

            the thing is that I find it hard to say that if we actually aren’t working on it. I talked with my boss and got a very small change. But the boss doesn’t see these issues as continual problems, and more like the price of the high volume that our office handles.

      2. AVP*

        Agreed. The key thing to remember here is that you’re not apologizing for personally screwing something up – you’re apologizing on behalf of your company as a representative. If it’s the type of company where someone will complain about the OP on Yelp or submit a complaint to OP’s manager, manager should understand that and look into the problems, not just hold them against the OP.

        1. part of the machine*

          the manager gets it, but the client often doesnt– which is what makes it difficult.

    2. Jennifer*

      I do it myself and apologize like it was my fault, and don’t say it was someone else. Why? Because if you are public facing, you’re the one who’s going to get the blame for it anyway, and always saying “it wasn’t me!” makes people think you’re a liar.

      1. part of the machine*

        thanks.

        I have had positions where this part of the job didn’t bother me. I trusted my colleagues. They worked hard to produce good work, and I would not mind occasionally (maybe 1X quarterly or less) apologize for an error that they made. It just gets more personally frustrating to me when it happens more often.

        1. Jennifer*

          I sympathize entirely, and I have a lot of the same issues myself. I feel like it ends up being my job to fix everyone’s typos because people were either lazy or couldn’t see or whatever.

    3. Anna*

      I have to do a version of this myself. I think the best thing you can do is apologize, let the client know you’re looking in to why this happened, assure them it will be taken care of, and find out if there’s something you can do to remedy the specific situation with the client.

      1. part of the machine*

        Thanks. I did a version of this when this came up. I kinda fixed it first, before calling, because time was of the essence, and I wanted to make sure that the issue was fixed before apologizing. I focused on the fix, more than the apology– which was a little easier for me.

    4. Kyrielle*

      As a client/customer, I don’t want to hear my point of contact blaming someone else. It’s *not my problem*. And I will think less of them for it – and I will think they’re more interested in dodging blame than seeing that my issue gets fixed.

      As someone who sometimes was in that sort of position at work, I went with something along the lines of, “I’m really sorry – I thought that was being done. I will find out what happened, get it moving again, and call you back (or email again, depending on initial contact) to let you know.”

      But the person to let know that others are causing issues is either the person who caused the issue, or your boss. Not the client. If you fix everything by hand and hated them, or if you had to send it to a team that never does anything on time, it’s not the client’s problem.

      1. part of the machine*

        accountability is a huge problem at my work place. and I’ve been in this situation several times before– which is why it is frustrating. But thanks for your response.

    5. Lead, Follow or Get Outta the Way!*

      If you are able to set deadlines for the other departments, I would definitely set them at least 24-48 hrs prior to your meeting time with the client. Then (if you haven’t already) create a checklist for yourself to go over prior to your meeting with the client. This way you know what you have, if it’s quality work or needs to be tweaked, or if something is missing. This is all a CYA move that will make your life a lot easier. Good luck!

      1. part of the machine*

        yeah. I don’t like making arbitrary deadlines, but I am thinking that I will need to start making deadlines on this so that the work gets done with priority/signficance– cause clearly my expectations are not the same.

    6. Gandalf the Nude*

      Well, if something needs to be done by X date or time, then the deadline isn’t arbitrary. Is it possible that, like Bekx upthread, these folks aren’t clear on when stuff is absolutely due and can’t prioritize appropriately? If so, that’s an easy fix.

      Either way, I agree with others that taking the heat *from the client* is part of being the client-facing role. However, you should be letting your manager know so that the correct person is being held accountable internally. If things aren’t getting done correctly/on time/whatever, then it doesn’t matter who the client blames, they’re not going to be happy, and that is something management should be addressing by fixing the actual problem.

      If management’s not holding the correct people accountable, though, and there aren’t any viable workarounds, you’re definitely right to be searching for something else.

      1. part of the machine*

        thanks. I appreciate your thoughts. See above. And yes, accountability is a big problem in my work place– which is why I am looking to leave. These issues have been “addressed” to my manager before and it has not improved.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Is your manager aware they have not improved? Or is he aware of how bad the situation is?

          1. part of the machine*

            the manager is aware, but doesn’t see it as something that it is critical/etc.

    7. my two cents*

      i’ve been in a similar role for the last 8 years – having to coordinate across sales and development teams to support customer inquiries and issues, and i’m the only customer-facing one of the lot.
      1. frame expectations accordingly. yes, your coworker should get that task done very quickly. however, start building in a small buffer when you’re communicating to the customer.
      2. acknowledge when the customer is still waiting. ping them before they ping you. even though you aren’t directly responsible for getting every aspect of their file done, you’re the coordinator.
      3. follow up on everything. should you have to be the babysitter for your colleagues? nope. but you’ll do yourself a HUGE favor by following up on your requests. my rule of thumb is: if it takes more than 1 prod (plus the original emailed request), you copy their manager.
      4. don’t bother calling out co-workers to customers. it doesn’t matter…they don’t know jim mcterriblecoworker, and it doesn’t help the customer to a resolution. it’ll just come across as catty gossip. the customer just needs what they need when they need it. IFF you feel you need to apologize or air some dirty laundry about something getting mucked up, DO NOT EMAIL THIS. keep it to phone only.
      5. start documenting what tasks seem to be getting messed up, or who’s routinely not finishing their docs/tasks/etc. i bet you’ll see a pattern pretty quick, and you should discuss these blockers with your manager.

      1. part of the machine*

        thanks. Some of your suggestions are things that I can incorporate and some are not. But I’ll see what I can do. Accountability is a big problem at my work place. I’ve brought up some of these issues with my manager before, and it has not been resolved, so I don’t think that this is going to get better– which has a whole separate level of frustration.

        1. my two cents*

          when taking info back to your manager, try giving as much detail for the incident as possible. try not to turn it into a ‘joe and sue are the worst and they never get their stuff done!’ rant session, but pointing out where some faltering points are might be useful.

    8. Anomanom*

      There is an art to sympathizing and apologizing to the client on behalf of the company, while at the same time not taking responsibility for the error. It’s been a while, and I am out of practice, but I will think on the phrasing I used regularly. Really though, they don’t care who screwed up, they just want to know you found it, the company is embarrased it happened, you will jump through hoops to get it fixed and ensure a step is added to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Even if you know it probably will at some point (been there).

      1. part of the machine*

        yep. working on finding a response that makes me not feel like a wimp/doormat/complete nincompoop.

        1. Anomanom*

          I liked to use “we” a lot. As in, we are so sorry this occurred, lets see what we need to do to get this fixed and deal to the root cause. We will make sure to keep you updated. I find that using we makes the apologizing on behalf of others more palatable than I. And I like to think that subconsciously it reminds them that it’s not all you, you are just the face (or voice).

          2. Lady H*

            This is what I do and what I was going to suggest! For exactly the situation that part of the machine describes, I never give the impression that it’s just me doing the work. At times I have my coworker, boss or a contractor working on a project, and can’t double check their work. (My boss and I are the only ones who interact with clients, so I occasionally email things on to clients that I didn’t work on at all but have no reason to check for errors since it was approved to send by my boss.)

            Sometimes I feel ridiculous saying “we did this” and “we did that” when it was just me working on a project, but it makes it easier to apologize for mistakes that someone else made if I can refer to how “we” are sorry/going to prevent the mistake from happening again.

            I picked up the habit from my boss, even though I didn’t even realize I was doing it but now find it useful. I’m still not sure exactly why she does it, but I think it makes you look good when you accept praise, too.

    9. MaryMary*

      I was in a role like this. We called it Bitch/Bastard in the Middle, because the team always thought the client’s expectations were ridiculous, or that they were being overly sensitive or focusing on the one wrong thing when 99 things were correct. The client would get mad about project timing and cost, and then really livid if there were errors in the finished product.

      Part of your job is taking responsibility for the team. Try focusing on the solution, and less on the “I’m sorry” (you still have to be sorry – it really annoys clients if they don’t think you realize the seriousness of the problem). And see what you can do to prevent the errors. You say you have a less than stellar team. How do you make them stellar? Would documentation help? Better processes? A checklist or peer review? Are there performance issues that need to be closely managed? Are you understaffed?

      1. part of the machine*

        I like the name, because that’s how it feels!

        I am not in charge of the team, just part of the team. I don’t know if I can lateral manage, but I have a feeling that I’ll get a lot of “stay in your own lane” from my coworkers.

        1. MaryMary*

          Is part of your job to advocate for the client? Or at least to make sure they stay your client? I’d approach it that way, to whoever does the manage the team. “Boss, several of our teapots have gone out with crooked spouts or broken handles lately, and I’m hearing a lot of noise from clients. How can we reduce the number of errors in our product?”

          1. part of the machine*

            unfortunately no. we are somewhat customer service oriented (that carries some weight), but it’s not a driving force in the work. this does help me with figuring out how to continue to frame the issue in a way that will appeal more to my boss.

      2. Jennifer*

        I call it being the buttmonkey, myself.

        I basically feel like I have to be as submissive and apologetic as possible–but then again, I’m a clerical worker and that’s the job.

        1. part of the machine*

          That’s another good name for it too.

          I get that being submissive and apologetic is sometimes the right thing to do, and I certainly am when I screw up. But if it’s someone else’s mistake and it’s more often, it gets harder for me to do that :(

    10. Elder Dog*

      I’m so sorry that happened/didn’t happen. I’ll get it fixed right away/I’ll find out what happened and find a way to hopefully keep it from happening again.

      1. part of the machine*

        these were a lot of the words that I used– thank you for suggesting them. I fixed a large part of it before I called/talked with the client, so that I could focus the brunt of my call on forward action. And that helped too.

    11. CTE 08-8F NAV*

      Perhaps a more positive way to look at it is that you’re the Captain of a ship. Being responsible for the actions of your crew is part of the job. Although admittedly, adopting the “Captain” role also requires that you have some of the Captain’s Authority to make things happen the way you want them to happen.

      I’ll just quietly mention that this kind of thing is also one of the downsides of going into business with one’s spouse.

      1. part of the machine*

        this is an interesting metaphor to apply. Yeah, it feels a lot like captain without the authority to captain– which is just frustrating.

        I can only imagine that it’s more complicated with more personal relationships– thank you for the suggestion of how to look at it.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      If the nature or the frequency of the complaints could mean the company will have bigger problems later, perhaps that is something that would persuade the boss.

      “Boss, I had three calls today where someone plugged our “gadget” into the wall and sparks flew out of outlet. I wanted you to be aware I am getting the call frequently.”

      OR

      “Boss, Customer Smith received our package and items A, B and C were missing. This is the second time this has happened to Smith.”

      Maybe if you just documented the complaints over a week and then sat with the boss to show her the patterns in the complaints.

      I do think that being specific is best, because the boss isn’t getting it. If you see something that looks like it could become a legal problem, that might help you get the boss to pay attention.

  21. Ann*

    Cover letter, schmutter letter! The online application process is so time consuming that the thought of drafting a cover letter wears me out! I know Allison says it’s a must, but if the recruiter only takes 10 seconds to glance at my resume, why would I think that they would bother reading my cover letter?

    1. Dasha*

      Nothing to add except sometimes I feel like these online applications were just as tedious as applying to college lol.

      1. Jessa*

        Yes. An application system should not take more than maybe 20 minutes, anything after that is insanity (unless it’s some government job or some kind of security check, but that should be an exception, and I think at least in the US there’s a single system so you can go in, do the thing and then just attach it to whatever jobs, however many times you want.)

    2. Spiky Plant*

      I typically spend more time looking at cover letters than resumes. Resumes are designed to be easily scan-able to get the info you need (a broad overview of past experience, at least at first stage). Cover letters take more time to get the info you’re looking for out of them. So, people who don’t care about that info are likely to skip it, people who do care about that info are probably spending more time reading the CL than the resume.

    3. RR*

      As someone who worked for an organization with a dreadful online application process, I can sympathize, but also stress that yes, a good cover letter is still worthwhile. The recruiter may or may not read it, but I, as the hiring manager, do. The last person I hired at ExJob moved to the top of the list in large part due to her excellent cover letter.

      1. Ann*

        thanks… that restores my faith a bit. Though sometimes the online process has questionnaires and I always feel that if I answer no to anything it means an automatic reject. So frustrating!

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      You’re doing yourself a disservice, I’ve written some awesome cover letters that have got me interviews for some really great jobs that I would not of got based on my CV.

      1. Ann*

        Good to hear Apollo! I chinned up and wrote a cover letter today but after answering No in their questionnaire about having x number of years experience in so-and-so I feel deflected and waiting for the automated Thanks, but no thanks email.

    5. DatSci*

      This is one of the two topics on which I disagree with AAM. Maybe in certain fields/positions cover letters are important. I work in data science and have never once needed a cover letter. I do quite a bit of hiring as well, and to be honest I don’t even read them. You either have the necessary experience for the job or you don’t. No miracles performed in a cover letter will make the difference between qualified to interview and not. However, keep in mind that this is a specialized field, there aren’t likely to be hundreds of qualified applicants applying like in the cases AAM mentions where she relies on great cover letters to set candidates apart.
      So if you’re in a writing field or a highly competitive one definitely write the cover letter. If not, it is not as important as its made out to be here.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        There are absolutely a few fields where cover letters don’t matter much, and it sounds like yours might be one of them. But please, please, please don’t use that experience to discourage others from writing them; my mailbox is full of letters from people saying that their job search totally turned around when they started writing cover letters the way I talk about here. It’s possibly the single biggest impact this site has had on people’s lives, based on my mail, and I get growly when I see comments that might steer people away from that!

        1. DatSci*

          Of course, I hadn’t meant to incite growliness. I just meant to add a diverse perspective on this question in particular. The original commenter who posted here did not indicate which field they are in, if it had been one of the fields I mentioned (writing, or a highly competitive field) I did advise to go ahead and write a cover letter. The only purpose of my comment is to provide additional information from a different perspective, that there are plenty of cases where cover letters do not matter.

    6. Anx*

      I think what’s frustrating is not knowing whether or not a cover letter is going to accepted or expected for the job.

      So often, you can’t skip sections until you start filling them out. Or you can’t review the application until you start one. If you don’t want to be left scrambling to write a cover letter, you have to risk writing one pointlessly. I know that theoretically you should be able to whip up a cover letter quickly if you’re applying to a job with a lot of writing, but I think it’s always easier to do that sort of work when you’re already in a position or when it’s not just about you.

      The thing I dislike the most about it, is that the cover letter usually gets me more excited. I visualize myself in the role and start thinking about my life with that company. And I’m trying to temper that sort of thing.

      1. No Longer Passing By*

        This. I recruit for my company and I don’t necessarily look at the years that a person has in the legal industry. Instead, I focus on the types of skills and characteristics that the applicant has and if it’s reasonably transferable to the position. So I may have a yes or maybe pile that I’m considering and that cover letter really can push someone up by demonstrating how the candidate views themselves in the role and using those skills.

        I’ve also had cover letters take candidates out of the 5 star yes pile and put in the reject pile. Why? Poor grammar. Spelling mistakes. Something written indicated poor judgment or anger towards their present or former employer or they detailed a list of things that they hate or they described working in an environment that directly was the opposite of my company.

        I haven’t done online dating but I imagine that it’s similar to a dating profile. That person wrote a summary about themselves and their likes and dislikes. You kind of have to believe it. And if their self summary turns you off, why proceed?

    7. Connie-Lynne*

      As a hiring manager, I would often read cover letters in our online system, especially if the resume was on the brink. A good cover letter would push me over into phone screening them; a bad cover letter would put me the other direction.

  22. Gvhftr Kijl*

    Sigh…
    I currently have a (relatively new) manager who seems to be overly focused on ‘what’ she should be doing rather than ‘why’ it’s been done. Like, she knows we should have regular team meetings, but she doesn’t seem to have any idea what the point of those meetings should be – no agenda, no objectives, no decisions made etc, often just feels like an hour of rambling.

    1. GOG11*

      AAM has a couple of good posts on managing up, which might have some helpful tips. Just search “managing up” and the articles pop up.

    2. YWD*

      Is she new to management or just new to managing your team? If she’s new to management she may not have received any training / guidance in how to be a manager. I know I didn’t and it took me a while to figure out what I was doing and I made mistakes along the way (still do at times).

      In either case if she seems open to feedback I’d be honest with her and give suggestions for what you feel would improve the team meetings. I periodically ask my team if they want to make any changes to how we meet and they’ve suggested things that we’ve incorporated.

    3. Bea W*

      OMG GAAAAAAAAAAAHHH make it stop!!!!!!!!

      We have people who do puzzlingly inefficient and unnecessary things and when asked why, they say “this is the way we’ve always done it.” Sometimes they are even reluctant to stop doing it when told they don’t have to do it that way, and in fact a year ago there was actually a team decision to change the process so yes, they can in fact stop wasting their time on it or in reality they are just doing it wrong. It’s even worse when people hold meetings for the sake of holding meetings. It wastes everyone’s time.

  23. SaraV*

    Ugh.

    I found what appears to be great FT job opening at a large company that happens to have an office in this town. Started the application process, started writing a cover letter…and then I read something on the online application that made me stop. Basically, it said if there was a 13 month discrepency in my job dates in the past 7 years, they won’t hire you. I was out of work for 17 months until two years ago.

    I can address this in my cover letter, but will they even see it if the application system tosses it out with that discrepency?

    I was so hopeful yesterday while getting my cover letter written, and it just felt like the rug was pulled out from underneath me.

    2. fposte*

      Did they use the word “discrepancy” itself? I wouldn’t assume that meant a gap, but it’s a weird word to use.

      And if they did mean a gap, what a stupid and random condition. I’d apply anyway but definitely move on mentally.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t think that meant a gap either. I would think that meant “don’t be wrong by more than a year on the dates you worked there.”

      2. SaraV*

        Exact quote: “Please ensure the accuracy of your dates as any discrepencies of 13 months or more will result in us not being able to move forward with you as a hire.”

        Hmmm. It doesn’t sound as bad now that I’m re-reading it. I think it just put me in a panic mode since I do have this largish gap.

        P.S. – I didn’t realize I applied to this same position back in 2013 until I was using my jump drive and found an old cover letter that was B.A. (Before AAM)

        I had a physical wincing action when I read it. Oy.

        1. fposte*

          That doesn’t sound like they’re worried about a gap at all. I think you’re good.

          I also think you’re probably at a level of diligence that it didn’t occur to you just how fictional people’s resumes can be, and that that’s what they’re talking about.

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          Yeah, that just sounds like “don’t lie about your dates of employment to cover up gaps on your resume,” not “gaps are bad,” to me.

            1. AnotherFed*

              Maybe they wanted room to not auto-fail people who typo’d the last digit of a year?

              1. Bea W*

                That’s my thinking, 12 months would make sense for the typical year typo that happens particularly when people are entering January dates, or for old jobs way back when the memory gets a bit fuzzy. I do find myself not being able to always remember easily if I started a job in 2000 or 2001, 2009 or 2010. Luckily I haven’t had to write a resume from scratch and can refer to an old copy, but I can totally see people accidentally entering a year off -/+.

              2. Anx*

                It does sound weird!

                I wonder if perhaps they also want to be gentler on situations where it can be difficult to pin down exact start and end dates. I know I have positions that I’ve worked off and on, or gone full-time to part-time to barely-any-time. Or perhaps you’re still on the books for a few weeks or months but you haven’t actually been on the schedule.

        4. CTE 08-8F NAV*

          Yeah, that just sounds like “please try to get your dates more or less right”. In some ways it’s a good thing – back in 2002, you left Job A in August and started Job B in October? Or was it July and November? It’s like they’re saying “we’ll give you a little leeway, but at least get the year right, okay?” At least that’s how it reads to me.

          1. Bea W*

            This too. I can’t always remember which month I started or ended a previous job, especially if was a long time ago.

        5. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

          I don’t read it as not wanting to see a gap, I read it as them not wanting you to LIE about a gap (like, say, you “accidently” wrote “August 2012-Present” underneath your most recent job on your resume when you really worked there from August 2012 to December 2013, or something).

        6. Bea W*

          Is it in the instructions or is there a message that pops up when you enter or submit the job history data? It sounds like a badly worded validation message. If it’s a message that displays when you enter data. The intent is likely to catch data entry errors and omissions, not automatically disqualify people who have a gap.

          Seems like they are basically saying “Make sure you’re didn’t goof up and accidentally bork your application. Also, don’t lie…or at least make it believable enough that you can play it off as a mistake.”

    3. AnonArch*

      Personally, I would try anyway. I’ve had some luck in the past. Hopefully it will let you apply!

      Also, I sincerely despise that hiring rule. :/

    4. Ann*

      I hate that for you! I’ve come to really dislike the job application process – we put so much time and effort and some algorithm decides the fate of our application. I think the only thing to do these days is to have some sort of “in” or contact at the company to get by the automated process.

  24. Lucy*

    Sorry in advance for the rant….

    Our IT guy has absolutely no idea how to behave in an office setting and nobody is doing anything about it. Total over-sharer (this morning I got to hear all about the stomach issues his latest medication is causing), brings his fiancee in for lunch all the time (they eat in the break room and then she hangs out for, like, an hour), and thinks “casual Friday” means SWEATPANTS. He’s younger (this is his first job out of college) and I’m in a completely different department and not senior enough to say anything to his boss, but it’s a small office and good god all of these little things combined just make my eyes twitch.

    1. Stephen King's Constant Reader*

      Uh wow, sweatpants? I have no advice but I’m sympathizing with you.

    2. Sara*

      At my last job, there was an intern who thought sweatpants were a good choice pretty much any day of the week. He looked ridiculous amongst the rest of the staff (and other interns!) who were wearing, you know, nice, work-appropriate clothing. But at least that guy had the excuse that he was 19…

    4. No Longer Passing By*

      Lucy, it’s possible that management isn’t aware of these issues, even in a smallish office. I had employees tell me that their coworker was wearing pants that were too tight, which made them uncomfortable because he then proceeded to stand right next to their faces as he assisted with their computers. Until they had mentioned it, I hadn’t noticed. At. All. So that led me to observe and then counsel on 2 points (1) appropriate fit of clothing and (2) personal space norms.

      But hey, I also am the one responsible for conducting those unpleasant discussions about personal hygiene and appropriate usage of the bathroom so ymmv

  25. Dasha*

    I could use some advice for my sister actually and this is kind of a long story…

    Many, many years ago when she was in high school she was in a bad accident that required some reconstructive cosmetic surgery. She ended up looking different from the way she looked before but if you didn’t know her you would never know that something happened to her other than a few small scars left over that she is able to hide with make up.

    Well now, she would like to go in and have a revision but all this is incredibly hard for her because it was very traumatic for her and probably especially traumatic to have to deal with in high school and even to do this day she is self conscious about her appearance (even though I swear you can’t tell unless you knew her before).

    She recently took a new job about six months ago and she really wants to have this surgery (she can now afford it with new job) but is afraid to talk to her boss. My advice was to tell her boss that she was having surgery she would be out X day through X day and could work from home for a week before returning. I told her maybe she would feel more comfortable approaching boss after having been there for a year?

    She’s all freaked out that people at work will judge her and terrified to talk to her boss.

    Basically, all I hear is that she wants to have this done but doesn’t know what to do about work or how to tell her boss?

    Wouldn’t the surgery line without much detail suffice above? I could use an outside perspective because maybe I’m overly protective of her and I haven’t told her to just suck it up and do it. :-/

    Sorry if this is kind of a work related question and kind of a personal question rolled into one.

    1. stellanor*

      “I need to schedule a surgery, would it work if I was out day X through X and then worked from home the following week?”

      “Oh no what surgery!”

      “It’s kind of personal, actually. Does day X through X work?”

    2. Graciosa*

      The surgery line is fine.

      As a manager, I try to be open to hearing whatever people want to tell me – without pushing for more that isn’t any of my business.

      However, I am not in a position to promise that every other person on the planet is going to react the same way, so perhaps it will help her if you rehearse some responses with her so she will feel comfortable pushing back if anyone (boss or co-workers) asks inappropriate questions.

      “It isn’t something I want to discuss at work, but I am very satisfied with the treatment plan and confident that I’m going to be fine.”
      “I really don’t feel comfortable discussing details of my medical situation at work, but thank you for your concern.”
      “Why do you need to know?”

      This are in order starting with a response for people who are asking out of genuine concern if she wants to reply with warmth, moving down to a response for busybodies who don’t understand boundaries.

      2. Blue_eyes*

        Great responses. If the manager is really pushy she could even say “It’s just a follow up for an old injury.” No need to specify exactly what it entails.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        This is good. People want to know, “are you alright?” Tell your sis to prepare a sentence or two that says, “I am fine and I will be fine afterward, also.”
        She is more apt to be asked if she is well-liked. People do care. I think it’s fine not to disclose details but just assure people, “I will be fine, thanks for the concern.”

    3. land of oaks*

      Anyone who judges her is a jerk! And the vast majority of people won’t judge her.

      Honestly, I know she’s upset about this because it’s traumatic and her perspective is so tied up with that. But if 99% of bosses/coworkers hear that someone is out for surgery, the last thing they are going to assume is that it is cosmetic surgery, whether reconstructive or not. There are 5 million kinds of surgery, knee surgery, skin cancer surgery, etc, that is where most people’s heads are going to go first, if they think about it at all.

      I really hope she can take a deep breath. Tell work that she needs to have surgery, with no additional information. And try to convince herself to believe that no one is even assuming she is having cosmetic surgery, much less judging her for having it.

      And even if she comes back with bandages/healing happening around her face, there are still SO MANY genuine medical reasons to have a procedure on that area of your body, I think most people will not automatically be all “omg, she had a face lift bc she is such a crazy Kardashian chick.” They will assume she had a medical procedure, and after about 5 seconds they will stop thinking about it at all and start thinking about themselves again, because people are so self-absorbed. ;)

    4. CTE 08-8F NAV*

      One thing that stands out to me as a red flag to me is that some people have / develop psychological issues over plastic surgery. I realize that this is not why you wrote in here. But – has your sister ever talked to a counselor or therapist about her surgery, and how she feels the need for a “revision”?

      1. QualityControlFreak*

        Good point. I had the head trauma/reconstructive surgery thing last spring. No one at work seems to be able to see the difference, but I do. I look different, and it’s weird. But you know, I’ll get used to it. Voluntary surgery is Not Happening.

        OP’s sister may have completely valid reasons for wanting the surgery, but it’s certainly something to think through carefully. But yes, just schedule it with work like any other surgery. No one needs to know the details – I mean, if you were scheduling a colonoscopy no one would really want to know the details, would they?

    5. JMW*

      Her larger concern may be that she will come back looking different, and people will not know how to react. If I were in her position, I would let my boss know that I had had prior surgeries due to an accident and that an additional corrective surgery was now necessary (defer any further questions, with “I would prefer not to talk about the details.”). This should waylay any judgment (which shouldn’t happen, but it may) without being too specific.

  26. chewbecca*

    This week at work has been challenging, so this is probably the Bitch Eating Crackers to top off my week, but we have an interview here who was sent paperwork to fill out, but did not do so. I gave him said paperwork and he’s been working on it for the past 20 minutes (it’s a front and back application and an EEO form).

    Meanwhile, while he’s taking his sweet sweet time, I have to go to the bathroom so, so bad. We’re short staffed right now, so I have nobody to cover for me and I’m just sitting here, trying not to do the potty dance in my chair and mentally willing him to hurry up.

    I know this isn’t pooping in a plant level poor interviewee behavior, but my bladder will be so, so happy when’s done.

    1. GOG11*

      I’m very sorry about your situation, but your post has made me realize how many terms I’ve added to my life from AAM. Bitch eating crackers for one, and now “pooping in a plant” level behavior. I really hope you’ve gotten to use the facilities by the time you read this!

      1. chewbecca*

        I did, finally!

        I realized that if someone new read my post they’d be fairly confused by all the inside references. I used ‘bitch eating crackers’ the other day with my fiance and got a funny look.

    2. OfficePrincess*

      I can see where this is just the cherry on top of a long week, but failing to fill out a simple form he was given in advance wouldn’t give me much hope for the candidate to work out.

      1. Jessa*

        Exactly. Unless the form had some weird question (in which case I’d put a sticky note to ask about that question, and do the rest,) being able to count on someone to do a two page form without being reminded, is kind of job duties 101. I’d take a serious extra look at this person’s potential work habits.

      2. chewbecca*

        I’m always a little leery when interviewees come in without their paperwork. We send it out to all of our candidates when the interview is scheduled.

        It also always makes me take a second look at them as a whole. This one was not dirty or messy, but had an air of unkemptness about him. And he was wearing those headphone things that you wear around your neck, which I thought was unprofessional.

        1. No Longer Passing By*

          I’m late so maybe you won’t respond but what paperwork do you send to interviewees? This is fascinating to me and perhaps I need to change my workflow.

          Yay, I now have a question for next week’s open thread.

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      Man, unless you’re afraid he’s going to snoop through your desk or something, I’d just say, “I’m going to step out for a minute while you finish that – be right back!” If he gets done and has to wait an extra 90 seconds, well, he should have done the paperwork ahead of time.

      1. Jessie's Girl*

        Exactly. I think he was taking his sweet time because chewbacca was sitting there staring at him. She should have just gone when she needed to go.

    4. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

      Sorry, off topic, but I just laughed pretty hard at your name. My brother was joking around once that when he has kids he wants to call his daughter Chewbacca and his wife was like, “We are not calling our daughter Chewbacca!!!!” So my mom suggested Chewbecca and we were pissing ourselves laughing….And now I realize that was a poor figure of speech, given the issue in your post. :S

  27. Stephen King's Constant Reader*

    Just looking for some encouragement today. I had two great interviews for a truly awesome role at a forward-thinking company in the past month so I’ve been playing the waiting game, but it’s been crazy hard. The “nope nope nope” has been utterly failing for me and I’m checking my phone every five seconds like a madwoman. Boss is gone for a month so thankfully things are quieter here in the office without her foolishness, but while on the outside I’m like “Yeah, things are totally fine,” inside I’m like “CALL ME ARRHGHGHHHHH!!!”

    Anyone else dealing with this right now? I feel like it doubly sucks because I really vibed with them and I actually know the hiring manager there pretty well (we’ve worked together before), so I feel like there’s a strong sense I may be offered the position; hence the reason why my brain is refuting the “nope nope nope” method.

    1. Diddly*

      I’m just at the waiting to hear back from applications stage, so all I can offer is congrats on getting to the interview stage!
      Alison usually says you should just forget about the jobs afterwards either act like you haven’t got them or the interview never happened… Not entirely sure how you do that, but I find writing out how I’m feeling – why I’m anxious, what the consequences of getting/not getting either job or whatever your fears are, makes me feel a little more in control/better. Also cake and coffee are good :)

    2. Call me maybe?*

      I’m still at the application stage too, but I’m having similar thoughts. I feel like I’ve crafted a better cover letter/resume than in the past, but still haven’t heard anything back yet. Grr…

    3. Benedicta*

      I’ve been interviewing for an awesome position for 10 weeks now. I’m in the top two. He spoke to my references over a week ago. Tuesday he emailed that he was having trouble scheduling “all” (which he already told me is just me and one other) the candidate’s references and would try to work it out by the end of the week. Well. Hello, Friday afternoon. He’s always contacted me by email, so every message from my husband, coupon, spam, whatever that comes through makes me want to scream.

      So, yeah, I get you.

    4. Steve G*

      I thought I was going to get a (dream) job 6 weeks ago, and then nothing happened. And the next week I got rejections from a bunch of jobs that look perfect for me (on paper). I was seriously PO’d and took a few days off from the job hunt because I was so PO’d at the whole process.

      It seriously felt like a breakup. To use a dating analogy, it felt like I had been dumped, and then went to a pickup bar, and everyone said “nope, too ugly.” And I’m standing there saying “no I’m not!” That’s what it felt like. I also obsessively checked my phone for days.

      Hopefully you have better luck!

  28. Skye*

    I (tentatively) have a job! Just waiting on the background check to finish before I stop qualifying the job offer.

  29. HigherEd Admin*

    I have an internal interview on Tuesday that I’m looking forward to. It’s in a different department on campus, and would allow me to focus 100% on the skills I’m actually looking to develop, rather than 50% on those skills and 50% on stuff no one else wants to do.

    The position is a lateral move. I had originally interviewed for what would be a promotion, but they hired someone within the department (a great sign that there’s room to grow in the role, I think!) and asked if I would consider the lower role. I’m interested, but wary about moving into a role that makes the same (or less) than what I make now. Is there a smooth way to address the lateral aspect of the role and inquire about pay/promotion opportunities without sounding like a jerk?

    1. TL -*

      Can you just ask about growth and trajectory of the job – where they expect their employees to go after they’ve held the job for however many years is reasonable for the field? I think that would indicate you’re looking forward in your career still while giving them a chance to tell you what you want to know.

  30. BRR*

    How have people dealt with being disciplined at work? As I have mentioned before I’m on a pre-PIP thing and have three weeks left. Meanwhile I am going insane. I’m exhausted from working so hard (my bar has been raised above what it would have been at before) and mentally I’m a mess. I’m already seeing a therapist and on medication.

    My boss has said she will be taking into account the entire 60 day time period and I know that I will annoy her by asking specifically if I am doing good enough. I think there is also a CYA element that she doesn’t want to say anything too specific. She is providing guidance and feedback. From what I am gathering, she is hoping I can pull through but I can’t tell if I am meeting expectations.

    I am also currently job hunting.

    1. Ali*

      This was me when I was on a PIP at my last job. I…did not handle at well. I got cranky on shift, cried and was miserable constantly outside of work (even though I had a friend who was all “Oh Ali I don’t think you have a bad attitude.”–God bless him.). I tried therapy as well to get my act together and figure out what was at the root of my problems. I also got exhausted from trying to meet my boss’s expectations, especially when he was telling me he “will not tolerate” any more mistakes and was quick to e-mail if I missed so much as a comma in my work.

      My boss was hoping I’d pull through the PIP too, but I had no sympathy for him when he said he hated doing this to me. At least his job was secure and he wouldn’t face any punishment for bad management.

    2. Jessa*

      I think that’s a little unfair on the part of the boss, if you have 60 days, you should at least have a couple of interim reviews. How do you know you’re doing the right thing, and if you have no chance to fix it? It really doesn’t make sense to me to supposedly be giving someone a chance to fix things, but not let them know til the end of the process if they’re doing it right.

      1. BRR*

        We meet weekly. I write reports so there are always edits made to my work as well as my peers’ work. I just don’t know if I am in the acceptable level of edits or not.

    3. fposte*

      I’m sorry, BRR. I know it’s been a tough time, and I hope something better comes soon.

      There’s only three weeks left, and you know asking if you’re doing well enough is going to annoy your manager. I’d stick it out without asking; it’s not like you could do more if the answer was no or slack off if it was yes anyway.

      1. BRR*

        Thank you for your continued support.

        Spot on advice as always. It’s also not helped that my boss has a sick parent. It’s like a magnet on a compass. She might be happy with me but in a bad mood.

        1. brightstar*

          You’ve had such a rough time BRR, and I’m sorry. What kind of feedback are you getting in the meetings? Has there seemed to be general improvement or is it still a more negative trend?

          Good luck with everything. When I had job difficulties in the past I coped by venting to friends over drinks, which helped a little.

          1. BRR*

            I’m getting better feedback than I was previously. The sense I’m getting is she wants me to succeed, I’m not being set up to fail. It’s just have I done enough?

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Is there someone who would be able to be an informal mentor to you? Sometimes a second voice saying the same thing in different words really helps.

              Or maybe you could check with your coworkers and see how it went for them when they were starting out. Get some pointers on a few things, perhaps?

    1. Folklorist*

      The lady who posted it says, ” Because so many people come to our building every day, the animal shelter put in a huge condo for cats and kittens that are need homes. The employees get to take them to their desk as a way to get them used to human interaction, and they also found that employee satisfaction went through the roof. Win-win! It has been in place for almost a year and over 100 cats and kittens have been adopted.”

      (She also says she’s leaving her job and about to move, so position up for grabs!)

    2. bridget*

      This seems like the best idea ever (for everyone who isn’t allergic to cats, at least :) ).

      As a customer, I LOVE it when I go into a small business and see a cat or dog napping behind the register. It makes me way more likely to actually purchase something there.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Same here! Especially a bookstore–I think every bookstore needs a cat or dog. And I think my favorite was one store where I thought I heard a snorfling noise while browsing, decided I’d imagined it, and then when I got to the checkout, a Newfoundland unfolded itself from the floor and got up for pets. O HAI THAR

    3. BenAdminGeek*

      I assume the card catalog must be very large to support that many felines…

      And, now I’m giggling at my desk at my own wit.

      1. Folklorist*

        Well, it is a CATalog, so it fits! (I like the thought of opening one of those teeny old-school card catalog draws and pulling out reams of tiny, mewling kittens arranged by markings and type.

        “No, no! ‘Ts’ for ‘Tortie Shorthair,’ not ‘Gf’ for ‘Gray Fluffy!'”

    4. Cathy*

      My favorite bead store has 2 ‘store dogs’. It’s so nice to be greeted with a wagging tail and a big doggy grin :)

  32. Frustrated and Confused*

    I’ve been unemployed for about 45 days. (I voluntarily left my previous job at a big-box retailer, as I was becoming a burned out hot mess of a manager. I was begged to stay. I’ve since recharged and am eager to get back into the game in a more balanced environment.) I’ve been contacted for a number of interviews – one was about three days ago and was digital precursor to an in-person interview (state government) where I had to write out answers to questions; one was a short-notice interview at a bank, with only one day available for candidates to interview and I was out of town; and then three others between a large specialty retailer and one at a small specialty retailer.

    The first two out of those three interviewers were with two different recruiters (corporate and regional) for the same company, and the third was for the small specialty retailer. They have all STARTED OUT with, “We don’t have an opening right now, but we really want to speak with you and see what we can do.” The interviews have all lasted for over an hour, have proceeded like regular interviews, and they all end with, “Like we discussed earlier, there isn’t a position now, but we’re going to talk to So and So and see what we can do, as we really, really want you. We think you’ll be a wonderful fit.” The first company has been out of contact for about a month (I e-mailed the recruiter two weeks after our interview to reinforce my interest, and she said she was still trying to make something happen), and there are actually no openings in my state at all (so, there’s a possible hiring freeze, even though the company is seeing market growth and an increase in sales), and I interviewed at the third company yesterday.

    I’m getting a little frustrated that I’m interviewing for jobs that don’t exist. I’ve never had this happen during other job searches — every other time I’ve changed jobs, I went in for the interview, spoke about a specific available position, waited a couple days, and then got the job. And I’ve done hiring for companies before, and I’ve never, ever interviewed people for jobs that don’t exist. Am I doing something wrong? Is this normal? Is there something between the lines that I’m not seeing?

    1. Retail Lifer*

      I’m in the midst of a job hunt right now. I haven’t seen this happen, but it can’t be you. There’s got to be something going on with these companies right now.

    2. Call me maybe?*

      Well, I don’t know. I *am* seeing postings for “future opportunities” when I never had before, and I’ve read about this sort of thing here. But, on the surface, it seems like you impressed the people you spoke with, which in my opinion, is never a bad thing. Good Luck!

    3. Cici*

      One possibility is that they plan to open new locations, and need to staff up, but can’t make the new locations public knowledge yet (public company). So it’s all seemingly theoretical even if there is an actual job, and HR can’t do anything about the timelines if there are other snags such as new delays with lease, etc.

    4. CTE 08-8F NAV*

      I think that if they out-and-out say “we don’t have an opening for you now”, that you should drastically reduce your expectations for them to come through on a job. Heck, if it happens to you again, maybe you should quiz them and try to drill down on just what is going on that they’re interviewing you?

    5. Paige Turner*

      I know this comment is late, but I wanted to add that I work for a national big chain store that does this- posts jobs to the website that don’t really exist. In addition to giving applicants false hopes, it also swirls up gossip and anxiety at the store because it makes it look like someone is leaving.

  33. KG*

    I was recently promoted to manage a team of 6, but my new boss (an exec new to the department) insists on having weekly one on one meetings with all of my direct reports, sets reviews/goal planning meetings with my direct reports (without me included), and runs all of our team meetings. This is all very confusing to me and my direct reports. Suggestions on how to talk to my boss about this situation?

    2. Thinking out loud*

      Do you have performance evaluations and goal setting meetings? If this were me, I’d try to sit down with my boss to do a goal setting meeting and include “weekly one on one meetings with direct reports,” “goal planning meeting with direct reports,” and any other tasks that you think should be your job but that he’s doing. Then I’d talk through those in the goal setting meeting and (if your new boss doesn’t bring it up as you’re talking about the goals), say, “I’ve heard that you’ve been holding meetings with my reports, too, and I wanted to make sure we’re not duplicating our efforts and confusing my direct reports. Would you rather that I invite you to the meetings so that you can continue to be involved, or are you happy with me holding them on my own?” If he indicates that he wants to have meetings with them in addition to your meetings, I’d try to figure out what he thinks he’s getting out of that – I agree that it’s probably super confusing for your people.

  34. Shell*

    Had to share this bit of awesomeness!

    So I’m three months into my new job. I’ve been battling a serious case of imposter syndrome because I did get this job through connections (I was wincing at the nepotism discussion yesterday), and had no real relevant experience. On paper, any decent candidate from a hiring process would knock me out of the running. I enjoy my job, I get along with everyone, but I’ve been waiting for the other shoe to drop despite passing probation and all that.

    Yesterday my sales guy was talking on the phone with a customer and popped his head over the cubical wall to ask me a question. I guess the customer asked him who he was talking to, because I heard the following one-sided conversation:

    “Oh, I was talking to Shell. Have you met Shell? She’s our new purchaser, she replaced “John”. (pause) Oh, I don’t really know, John’s contract expired I think. Well, Shell here is 150% better than John, so it’s all good…(blah blah rest of conversation)”

    …ahaha. I might have boogied in my cube with my Mickey Mouse stress ball for a bit there :P

    Happy Friday everyone!

    2. Jessa*

      Nice, that’s such a cool way to find out you’re doing great. And a stress-ball-boogie sounds way fun.

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      That is really awesome imposter syndrome sucks and I hope that gives you some confidence in yourself.

      I was worried about starting my new job and think its only natural to have some concerns about fitting in.

    4. jamlady*

      I’m about 2 months into mine and it was a huge jump for me. I felt the same way! Then about 2 weeks ago I started getting a lot of “way better” and “talented” and “right fit” phrases thrown out to describe me and I feel like I have a huge weight lifted (one that I didn’t actually notice until it was gone). It was exciting! I’m glad to hear you’re getting the praise deserved and not feeling like an imposter anymore!

    6. bridget*

      Save this comment somewhere in your “kudos” file. I try to read mine over when I am feeling pangs of imposter syndrome, to remember that people actually think I do a good job!

  35. anon for this*

    Has anyone ever found themselves in a workplace emotional affair? Or known anyone that was? I’m curious if they always end badly or if the two people are able to be very clear on the boundaries and just kind of keep it to flirting and innuendos without it ever going beyond that? I understand now when people say they weren’t looking for something, it just sort of happened. I am finding myself in an ever increasing entanglement with someone I work with (although not located in the same agency or even town. Different dept of my organization; different city). We’ve both been pretty clear with each other on what our end game is with this and it’s not to leave our spouse/partner. We’re just sort of enjoying the flirting and bantering and visiting on FB.

    I’m not looking for advice on what to do – I know what should be done, but I’m not ready to do it. I’ll admit that. I know everything that’s wrong with this scenario and I know what a horrible person I am being. What I am interested in hearing about it stories of how these things progressed (or didn’t – can two adults agree to keep something like this at a certain level or do they *always* progress?).

    1. JB (not in Houston)*

      I think it only matters about whether it will progress if you and your spouse/partner don’t think that having an emotional affair is a big deal. If it is a big deal, then you’ve already crossed a line (because this isn’t just flirting, this is the two of you having a conversation about whether what you’re doing is ok, which is itself a signal that this isn’t just casual, meaningless flirting). If it’s not a big deal to you or your partner, then you don’t need to stress about it, just be careful about enforcing boundaries if it looks like the other person wants more.

    2. Jake*

      I’ve never seen it stay at that level, but in the cases I’ve seen, it was very clear that sex was the end game for at least one of the parties.

    3. MT*

      They only time I have seen a situation like this get out of hand, was when one of the spouses finds out. That spouse forbid their husband from having any contact with the other co-worker. It went south after that. The co-worker was dumped and tried to stay in contact. it ended up that one of them quit the company.

    4. Joey*

      The only time I’ve seen it not progress is when one person cuts it off.

      If the end game is not to leave your partner do you think your feelings won’t increase if you continue?

      1. GOG11*

        This is a good point. If the end game isn’t to let it progress and it IS to get something that you’re currently getting out of the interactions, maybe there’s a less risky way to go about it.

    5. matcha123*

      I’ve been in this position maybe two times so far.
      The first time we just ended up kind of dating before he went overseas. The other time, hmm…
      The guy was a year older, but I later found out he was married and had a kid when I ran into them at a store. I knew nothing was going to happen, but the back and forth joking at work and over Facebook was probably what helped us to get through the day. He was also struggling with depression and would message me a lot to chat about random things.

      With the first guy, we were both single. With the second guy being married and having a kid, I think we were able to keep our boundaries without going overboard. There certainly was never any touching involved with the second one. Why not just enjoy it? You don’t need to take it any further and if you do want to, you’re both adults.

    6. Anon for this*

      Although I don’t flirt with intent, I do sometimes flirt with people at work but it’s never progressed for me. I think the key is that I keep it in the open with my spouse. I’ll lightheartedly refer to someone as my “work boyfriend” when talking to my spouse, and knowing that he knows keeps me honest. That said, I think your situation might be different from mine, because I probably wouldn’t start private messaging in Facebook. The flirting I do is joking in the office, meals out on weekdays, and bantering together on work outings – I wouldn’t typically use my private time with my family to continue the flirtation.

      1. anon for this*

        Yes, you’re accurately reading my situation. That’s what’s happening (that last sentence was a gut-punch. I’m letting this eat into my time with my family, but just time spent thinking about the whole thing is taking me away mentally from life). My husband doesn’t have a clue about this and because the work relationship is so infrequent I don’t think he’d suspect. Thanks for your input.

    7. anon for this*

      Thanks for the input, all. That’s what I was curious to hear.

      @JB – yeah, the line has been crossed. Spouse/partner would be pissed.

      @Joey – I agree. I don’t know how I won’t feel more invested in this as time goes on. This is so something that I would have never expected myself to do; be involved in, etc. I have a lot more compassion for people now that say that and mean it. When I really honestly think about it, I don’t want a divorce. He doesn’t want that. But I did mention to him that how can we keep up this pace and not want to see some more results from it? I don’t think either of us want to answer that question.

      1. Joey*

        I guarantee you he wants more but doesn’t want to come off as a willing cheater. Men wanting to cheat always want more. He’s just trying to tell himself he’s not doing anything morally wrong by categorizing it as harmless flirting.

        1. anon for this*

          Interesting. Yeah, this has been making me think a lot more about how easily we categorize people as bad and good. So I’m by all accounts a good person. Kept my nose clean – very traditional path of husband and kids. Never strayed; don’t fight with my husband. We’re good. Yet here I am doing this. So does this make me a bad person? I think most of the world would certainly look at it that way. I know most people would think he’s a slimebag, but I’m participating in this, too, so aren’t we both slimebags? Does this mean we both lack integrity? Generally speaking I’d say we don’t, but obviously there’s one area we do. Or does something like this overshadow everything else to the point where we’re both sufficiently shitty people??

          I know, Joey, that these existential discussions aren’t your thing so I’m not expecting a big response. :) But something about what you said made me wonder about all of that.

          1. Joey*

            I don’t think so. I just think you probably haven’t like so many others haven’t done enough to maintain your relationship with your hubby. I just think youre misguided. You’re seeking out fullfilling your needs from the wrong place. He makes you feel good. But if you talk to your husband about your feelings don’t you think he can do the same?

            A guy I work with who used to cheat all the time told me he now thinks of it this way( and sorry for the crudeness)- I don’t want to lose my family and the wife who has always been there for me just to get my dick wet. Because that’s all that will happen. I’m not going to leave the wife and family I love for her and she’s not going to leave for me.

            1. anon for this*

              I get that, crudeness and all.

              Misguided, perhaps. I’d actually say selfish and calculated. I’m having a total selfish meltdown over here. There’s a big part of me that likes having something that’s totally “mine” (as incredibly effed up as that sound). There is nothing in my life that is mine right now. It either belongs to my husband children. And I’m kind of sick of that. Obviously, this is the wrong way to get something that’s mine, but…….I think you’re right that we’ve probably slipped into the doldrums of life. My only act of rebellion in my life was getting a tattoo when I was 18. And even then that wasn’t that shocking to anyone. I think I’m after some kind of thrill with this, too, although the stakes are higher. The part that scares me is that right now I don’t want to give it up.

              As far as your question about can my husband give me what his guy does. Yeah, he probably could. He’s probably capable. Probably willing. But I don’t know if I want it from him right now. So again. Selfish.

              1. Joey*

                You don’t want him to because it’s work. And this guys doing it without work from you. But the passion within a relationship takes a lot more work after the newness of it wears off.

                1. Joey*

                  If you want something for yourself get a hobby that you own. I play golf, my wife runs. We own those separately and know not to interfere.

                2. Not So NewReader*

                  anon, Joey has a good handle on this one. Yep, you are still a good person that has not changed. But something is missing from your personal life and it’s time to figure out what it is. You are saying your time is sucked up by your fam and there is no time for you. This guy will also suck up your time and there still will be no time for you. No gains, here.
                  What will you do for yourself to show yourself that you are special and what little wonderful things in life would you like that you do not have/do right now?
                  Conversely, how do you feel about your job? Bored out of your gourd? Fighting to even fake being interested in the job any more? Maybe that is the real issue.

              2. lawsuited*

                It is absolutely none of my business, because this is your life and you’re absolutely entitled to do what you want with it, but your comment that nothing was yours really struck me. Because your children and your husband are yours. Right now, you all belong completely to each other. If your family fractures, it won’t be that way ever again.

                1. anon for this*

                  wow, lawsuited, you’re right. That’s a really sharp change in perspective I had not considered. I’m glad you said that. thanks

                2. anon for this*

                  and I think where I was going with that comment about not having anything that’s mine is this: I have lost myself. Everything I do is for someone else and nothing really for me. It always used to piss me off when I was younger (before children) and would read women’s magazines and see article after article about women not taking time for themselves and how hard it is. I used to think that was such a cop out. But now I completely get it. It’s happened to me and it sucks, man. So I was thinking of that selfishly, but I see there’s a much weightier way to look at it, too.

          2. afiendishthingy*

            You don’t sound like a bad person (based on this; if you kick puppies in your spare time I might change that opinion). You sound conflicted, and I would guess probably on the road to getting hurt.

            1. nep*

              …and/or deeply hurting someone else.
              I hear all you’re saying, ‘anon for this’. I think a lot of us can relate.
              I don’t think it’s useful to wonder whether you and this person fall into a category of ‘good’ or ‘bad’.
              Bottom line, it seems to me, is thinking about the end game here — where does the flirting and all (and yes — it feels good and could feel as if it’s filling a void) — where does it all lead? And do you want to go there? It’s likely not going to remain just exactly as it is. Things evolve.
              You can identify and develop other interests / activities that are just yours. Part of you probably wants to justify this relationship as fulfilling that very real need and therefore a positive thing in some way. When we’ve got something so gratifying we’re really good at rationalising.
              I wish you all the best. Do keep us posted.

    8. some1*

      Like MT, I have seen spouses find out, and without snooping. Say your spouse asks to see your phone because hers is dead or she wants to see an app or get a contact that you have that she doesn’t; and you hand it over without thinking and a FB message comes through as a push notification or text and it’s Dog House, Population: You.

      1. anon for this*

        That’s exactly the scenario I’ve imagined. I’d like to think I’m smart enough to cover my bases, but I have been an idiot with social media before so that’s entirely possible.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yeah, it sounds like you’re actively hiding something from your spouse that you know would be devastating to him and your marriage. You’re actively trying to cover your bases; that’s bad, and indicates it’s past the point where it’s harmless.

          Can you use it as a flag to find ways to make your relationship with your spouse more fulfilling?

          1. anon for this*

            What’s so hard for me to wrap my mind around is that I have a good marriage by all accounts. We don’t fight. He’s good to me; we laugh together. He’s a good dad. We have interesting conversations about ideas and philosophies. Anniversary #13 is next week. So, I don’t think that falls into the “typical” affair demographic?? (but I could be wrong. I bet there are articles on it).

            I think the problem is within me. I’ve not been looking after myself. I have young children. I’m bored of the daily grind and unhappy with myself. But this has motivated in me some pretty powerful ways – I’ve been busting my ass on the treadmill at night. I’ve been watching what I eat. Paying better attention to how I dress. (But deep down I think a big part of all that might be to make myself more attractive for him. I’m not stupid).

            My hope is that this thing will just sort of lose its glamour and power the next time I see him. It’s probably months in between times I’d see him (and thank god for that. It would be nuclear if we were in the same town. I’d lose myself I know I would). I’d like to think it’s a crush that will eventually lose its steam, you know?

            1. Joey*

              Does your husband make you feel the same way this guy does? I bet not or you wouldn’t be interested

                1. Joey*

                  That’s what you need to talk to your husband about then. Wouldn’t you rather have your husband fulfilling that need than some random meaningless co worker?

                2. Joey*

                  Look I’ve said it a million times here. Guys-people are not very good at reading signs or knowing your needs without talking about them. This includes spouses.

                3. Jake*

                  I just want to second everything Joey has said.

                  I watched a documentary on lying last night. A section was on why women cheat. The take away was that you aren’t having your needs filled, be it sexual, emotional, etc.

                  The woman they used as an example loved her husband, but he didn’t make her feel attractive. Great father, smart funny etc. Having an affair made her feel attractive, so she did.

                  The problem is that when we have marital issues, it is our duty to work through them WITH our partner. Through couples therapy this woman found that by going on more dates and changing their lifestyle, her husband could satisfy that need.

                  You aren’t a horrible person. You are a person currently doing a horrible thing, which is true of just about everybody at one time or another. You owe it to your partner to figure out what about him is unsatisfying and work through it together.

              2. Going Anon*

                Yep, I totally agree with this. My situation started as an emotional affair and led to a physical affair. I ended up telling my husband but we actually worked through it and are still married. However, I totally regret what I did. Even though we’re still married, things are different.

                I’m a firm believer in “love languages”. You may want to search using that term because there is a book that goes into detail. Also, check out the website Marriage Builders. It has the same concept, except they are called emotional needs. It sounds cheesy, but your husband isn’t meeting the emotional needs or speaking the language that makes you feel lvoed.

                Yes, it’s new and exciting and fun with this guy, but where is it going to go? If you leave your marriage, do you want to be with a guy where the relationship started off by an affair? From my experience, this can easily go down a path of a physical relationship. And then it’s just going to be worse. I know you said you won’t see him for months, but if you’re still in contact via email, texts, etc that’s going to keep the fire going.

                I suggest you cut off contact with this guy and focus on your marriage. Perhaps look into counseling. I can totally relate to your situation and it’s tough. Good luck.

                1. anon for this*

                  Thanks to everyone for your input up and down this thread. I do appreciate it. Particularly, Joey, Jake, and Going Anon your comments right here really hit home and gave me a lot to think about. I hate it all and hate myself, but thanks for your direct honesty.

                2. Going Anon*

                  I can’t reply to your comment directly, but please be kind to yourself. It’s good you are reaching out and asking for advice. As I mentioned, this is a difficult situation and I do wish you the best. Take care.

    9. INTP*

      I feel like if you’re at the point where it could even be called an “emotional affair,” you are past the point of keeping it to flirting and innuendos. If you’ve talked about your end game and whether you plan to leave your partners, you’re WAY past flirting. Flirting and innuendos only work when the emotional attraction isn’t there and the physical attraction isn’t strong to worry about actually giving in to it.

      1. anon for this*

        Good points. Hard to hear because obviously I’d rather downplay this.

        So – is this thing I’m talking about just an affair then?

        1. INTP*

          It’s still an “emotional affair” if it hasn’t been physical at this point, imo. But I also think an emotional affair is a serious thing and completely different from a workplace flirtation. It calls for the same steps as ending an affair, like ending all non-work-required contact with the person. It’s not like a flirtation that you can just rein in by being slightly less flirty.

          1. anon for this*

            I agree. Dammit. I seriously cannot believe I would have ever allowed myself to enter into something like this. I have a friend that I’ve heard say, “It’s easy to be monogomaus when no one is knocking at your door.” It makes me chuckle, but I understand what she’s means now. It’s heady stuff when someone finds you attractive after years being stuck in a rut of the daily grind of parenthood, etc. I’m not delusional about how serious this is. Nope’s advice below is pretty accurate. Just get ready for when the shit hits the fan.

            1. RoseTyler*

              I would end it now – Future You will thank you.

              If the sum total of the emotional affair is Facebook flirtation, it sounds like a huge risk for pretty low-level “reward”. The upside is that it would be pretty easy to put a stop to it. I’d focus on improving your relationship with your husband and focusing on what it is that’s “missing” that led you to seek this out. Good luck!

            2. misspiggy*

              I wonder whether you could head off that fan-hitting moment by spending some time on your own – just one or two days not in contact with husband, kids, flirting colleague or anyone else close to you. I travel a lot for work and it makes a positive difference to my marriage. Both of us get to do our own thinking in our own space while I’m away, and we appreciate each other more because of it.

              What you said about having nothing that’s yours seemed quite important. Would what you have with your affair colleague seem less attractive if you had other times or occupations that were truly yours, that you didn’t have to reach for illicitly? Does it seem that if you openly claim something as yours, your family would muscle in on it, or you would feel guilty? If you spoke up for what you need, and carved out some space for yourself, others might make way more easily than you think.

              1. anon for this*

                “Does it seem that if you openly claim something as yours, your family would muscle in on it, or you would feel guilty?”

                Yes, I do feel this way. I actually travel quite a bit for work already and that time alone without anyone needing anything from me is helpful. I do get a guilt trip from him for being gone, but he knows it’s my job and I’ve communicated that to him. I don’t know a way to get my point across on that one.

                A few weekends ago I just decided I was going to get some stuff done around the house regardless of the kids. They are old enough to play outside right now and don’t need a parent hanging around. So I just tuned everyone out, did minimal duties (I fed and napped everyone, but that was about it). My husband had to step in more when they needed something, thus, he couldn’t get his to-do list done for the day. He was all bent out of shape about that and I know it’s because I finally just said, “screw it. I’m unavailable.” And perhaps I went too far the other way!

                “Would what you have with your affair colleague seem less attractive if you had other times or occupations that were truly yours, that you didn’t have to reach for illicitly?”
                That’s a good question. I honestly don’t know; will have to think about that some more.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  If either spouse is away a lot, it is very challenging. The spouse left behind can feel very alone. Even with couples working close to home, these issues can tear at a marriage.

                  Some of the answers may not be as hard as it seems. Maybe hire help- someone to mow or someone to clean. Maybe hire a sitter and declare the first Saturday of each month date night. Both of you need a break and you both need to reconnect to each other. This reconnect does not happen automatically because life is just to damn demanding. It takes planning.
                  So. many. couples are going through this. You are not alone.

                  I bet he feels that he never has time that is truly his, either. Not defending him but I am just pointing out that it sounds like the two of you are both working very hard at making a go of it.
                  A friend (who just lost his marriage) said, “We got lost because our goals and our possessions some how became more important than US.”

            3. lawsuited*

              Have you heard of the concept of walls, doors and windows in marital relationships? The idea is that you and your spouse create boundaries around your relationship by having walls around your marriage so that the two of you are in the same room, but then you open windows and doors in order to let other people (friends, parents, children) communicate or interact with your marriage. Most marital problems arise because your windows, windows or doors are in the wrong place (E.g. Overbearing mother-in-law interfering in your marriage? It’s because you have a door and need a window.) In an emotional affair, you put up a wall in the wrong place – between you and your husband – and open up a door in the wrong place – between you and your co-worker. The wall you’ve put up is already impacting your marriage right now, regardless of what happens with the door.

              I don’t think you need to hate yourself. It’s hard to see how the boundaries of your relationships are changing when you’re in the middle of them. Someone close to me had an emotional affair, and this concept helped him understand how his actions were changing the mechanics of his marriage.

              1. anon for this*

                I had not heard of that concept, but it resonates very loudly with me. Man, maybe I’m going to need to go to counseling on my own to get some of my own shit figured out. Then if I can’t square myself away I’ll have to see if my husband will go with me. I’ll have to look for some more resources that talk about the door, windows, and walls. You’re right – I have been feeling a little bit separate from my husband since this whole thing started. I feel more like an observer in my life when I look at my kids and husband because of the wall I’ve put up. That gives me a lot to consider, thanks.

                1. afiendishthingy*

                  Yeah, it sounds to me like you’re hurting and using your coworker as a Band-Aid. Therapy is a wonderful thing, it really is.

    10. Nope.*

      I’ve personally never seen it get this far and end well for everyone (or, really, anyone). But that’s just my experience with the 12 plus times I’ve seen this situation happen. Because regardless of progression, it’s gotten this far, and like you said, you know it’s wrong, so just be ready for when sh*t hits the fan.

    11. bridget*

      I have seen workplace flirtings/mutual crushes fizzle out harmlessly – but if you’ve openly discussed the fact that this is an emotional affair, this seems more than that. I think the only way to ensure that it won’t cause harm (or further harm) is to cut it off. Luckily, being in different cities means that this will be easier than it would be if you were in the same office.

    12. Jem*

      I was involved in something like this with guy who had a live-in girlfriend. It all came to a head when he tried to kiss me one night when we were a little drunk and I decided in the moment that I didn’t want to break up his relationship and have him hate me the next day. After that, we stayed friends but he moved. I can’t say what would have happened if he had stayed in town.

    13. CTE 08-8F NAV*

      I wouldn’t call you a horrible person. This kind of thing is not infrequent, and happens to a lot of people. It reminds me a lot of homosexuality: gay people have been around for thousands of years in probably every human culture. I don’t think they’re horrible – I think it’s just something that human beings are prone to. People have been falling into emotional (and non-emotional) affairs for a long, long time.

      One thing that you have going for you in your current situation is that you are physically isolated from The Other Person. It’s when he (or you) scores a business trip to your (or his) location – then things can get prickly. Some years ago I knew a guy who was in this situation, they met up at some convention, had sex, his wife found out – and she proceeded to email the dirty details to every email address she could find, including everyone he and his paramour had ever worked with. It was a really nasty mess.

      *sigh* It makes me sad that this kind of thing happens to people, and often ends very badly. Pragmatically, I think your best move would be to just cut it off with the other person. *Don’t* tell your husband about it – I know that many people will suggest that you ‘fess up, but my observation has been that a) this rarely goes well, and b) that people who suggest that you confess aren’t speaking from personal experience.

      I realize that I’m taking a risk in comparing this to homosexuality, but I hope it’s not too difficult to see how these things are similar: they’re so common, and they’ve been around so long, that it’s obvious that they are aspects of the Human Condition. Aspects that are not well-thought of by many people. But in the same way that I can’t say someone is a bad person because they are homosexual, I can’t find it in myself to say that someone is a bad person because they found themselves in a workplace affair. I just wish the consequences of these things weren’t so harsh.

      1. anon for this*

        Thanks for your thoughts on this. I appreciate your non-judgment (and everyone’s else here, too – everyone’s been cool). Paragraph 3 makes sense.

        1. CTE 08-8F NAV*

          I’ve been thinking about this. A couple of observations: First, I believe that in at least a couple of places you come right out and say that you don’t want to give this up. Selfish or not, I think it is good that you are being honest with yourself.

          Second: I can’t find a citation, but someone wrote that many affairs come about because a person loses the narrative thread of their life. I think there is a lot of truth to this – I think it applies to you, for instance, in that it sounds like you seriously invested yourself in the role of ideal mom / ideal wife, and then discovered that you were bored with this role, and unhappy with how little you get from it, and – worse – not feeling much appreciation from your husband or family. If you think of your life as a book, you’re at a place where the reader (who is you, more or less) is kinda starting to snooze. And so when this other guy comes along – a guy who, btw, may be bogged down in much the same way you are – and makes you feel attractive and appreciated, it’s like a powerful drug.

          If you buy into this whole notion of “lost narrative”, two thoughts: a) you are indeed finding and following a new narrative pathway. It may be a path that is filled with lots of rocks and pain, though, and b) I’m not a therapist or psychologist, but I have to wonder – if you want to keep your husband and your family – if you should just do something like quit your job and go back to school? Or quit and become a volunteer political activist? Or just quit and tell husband and kids you need to go to Tibet for a year to find yourself? Etc. The idea being to shutdown this emotional affair by intentionally throwing a huge monkey-wrench into your life. I don’t know – but if you buy into the “lost narrative” explanation, maybe it’s better to try to consciously alter your life in a positive direction than to just sit back and let things happen to you, mostly out of your control. You may think “no way could I just pick and go to Tibet!”, but – while there is a small chance that you might maintain your affair for years (or maintain several affairs over many years) and never get caught, it’s more likely that your affair will be discovered. In short: you are currently headed towards a large disruption in your life. What kind of disruption do you want it to be?

          Whatever happens, I wish you the best.

          1. anon for this OP*

            It’s really funny you came back and posted this, because this weekend I happened to see this TED talk and it blew me away. Especially about halfway through where she talks about a person running FROM themselves. Trying to escape themselves through an affair. That took my breath away it resonated with me so hard. Some of the situations she describes was like she was talking to me. It was incredible. Anyway, a lot of what you said here reminded me of her points – the narrative thing. It’s not that I’m unhappy with my husband or children. I’m unhappy with me. And you’re right – this is a massively powerful drug. Escaping into this world I’ve created in my own mind. Talking with this guy reminds me of a younger, more carefree version of myself and I like that. I want to be close to that again.

            https://www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_rethinking_infidelity_a_talk_for_anyone_who_has_ever_loved

    14. nep*

      Not telling you what to do — Only you govern that. Just reading through all this — it seems as if you’d get a hell of a lot of relief from just cutting this off and moving on. It would suck initially, sure — but in the long run it likely would bring some quiet in your mind and just mental and emotional release — all priceless. (Not to mention some real time / space to address whatever might need to be addressed between you and your spouse.)

  36. Cobalt-60*

    Brand new manager here.

    What do you wish you had known when you first started managing people? Any references you would recommend (I’m reading Alison’s book at the moment)? Also, any government managers out there who have any tips specific to managing people in a federal agency, I would especially love to hear from you (calling Katie the Fed!).

    1. OfficePrincess*

      I still consider myself new, but I would definitely have to recommend sitting down with either your manager or HR to get a list of policys/procedures/forms so that when a situation comes up you know roughly how the organization as a whole wants you to handle it. What can you just go with your own judgement on? What needs sign off from above? That kind of thing.

    2. Frustrated and Confused*

      After about two months into my first “real” management role, one of my reports came to me and said, “You know, you’re the most positive manager we’ve ever had, and we’re not saying you should stop being that way, but you don’t have to say ‘good job’ or ‘nice work’ every time we do something. It means more if you don’t.” That was hard criticism but I took it seriously, and she was right.

      Then I transferred to a different location, and I worked for a store manager who didn’t set expectations or follow-up. There were no boundaries and no accountability. I realized how much of a difference that makes for morale. And I learned that it’s all fine and good to give positive feedback and praise your people, but they’re also seeking constructive feedback, ways to improve, and, most importantly, structure and accountability. That’s hugely important for a manager to embrace, and it’s often the hardest thing for newer managers (including me) to tackle competently. Have the courageous conversations.

      1. hildi*

        I love this advice!! I could easily see myself being this way (overly positive), but not realizing how over time that loses its effect if it’s not balanced with thoughtful and constructive feedback. I’m going to read this comment a few times to cement in my brain!!

    3. Katie the Fed*

      Hm, I think what makes things really hard for federal managers is that we often don’t have a lot of teeth. We can counsel people and initiate disciplinary actions, but the real shady characters know how to game the system, bounce between managers, drag out the disciplinary process, etc.

      But, all hope isn’t lost, because hopefully you have a supportive management chain who will back you up in your decisions.

      One book I found incredibly helpful was “101 Tough Conversations to Have with Employees: A Manager’s Guide to Addressing Performance, Conduct, and Discipline Challenges” by Paul Falcone. There’s another one too – I’ll try to find it. Basically I rehearsed the heck out of any difficult conversations – I had friends pose as my problem employee and try to throw anything they could back at me (“But Joe comes in late all the time!” “But you just don’t like me because xxx” etc). I rehearsed until I was confident, and then I had the tough conversations.

      One thing I learned through trial and error – issues rarely resolve themselves over time. If you say something the first time you see a problem, it’ll save you from having a Very Serious Conversation later. A bit of course correction goes a long way.

      What else can I tell you…

      – Don’t change things right away. Give it a month or two to see how things are done, ask questions, get to know your people. They’re sussing you out too (I’m in the midst of that right now) so give it a little time.

      – Conduct issues are almost always easier to address than performance ones. Conduct issues are usually black and white and violation clearly laid out rules, so you can easily get HR’s backing on them. Performance issues are muddier – and so much harder to take disciplinary action on. The good thing is most poor performers also have conduct issues. Thing of it like busting mafia dons for tax fraud. Doesn’t mean you should ignore poor performance, but definitely go for the conduct issues.

      One thing I wish I’d realized when I started managing is how much they’re paying attention to you. Your moods, your preferences. It’s weird and unnerving. They’re like spiders – they’re just as afraid of you as you are of them :)

      Good luck. I’ve enjoyed it way more than I thought I would!

    4. Sandy*

      -Document, document, document. Even more applicable in government than the private sector. You CAN let people go (contrary to rumour/reputation) but you will have to be able to prove that you took a concrete steps to remedy the problem.

      -Know your system. It goes hand in hand with my first point. It probably won’t be enough to say “I asked employee to do X, they refused, I put them on a PIP, they failed, can I fire them now?” Every government system is different, so study up on which division deals with what problem. Do you have to go to Employee Counselling services? What levels of approvals do you need from HR at what point? Etc etc etc.

      -Learn how to work around people. B*tch eating crackers sadly doesn’t go very far in government. You’ll need to learn how to work around certain people (whether they are your problem employee or someone else’s) in order to get things done. It’s hard, but an incredibly valuable skill.

      -You’ll benefit by learning how to motivate people in ways that DON’T involve raises or promotions. Within a federal agency, you’re unlikely to have the ability to do either one. Every employee you’ll have will be different, but some of the strategies I’ve used have involved travel (either more or less of it depending on the employee), speaking opportunities, cooler projects, etc. of course, it only works for so long…

  37. Cereal Killer*

    I left my job of seven years last week for a great opportunity. They scheduled a phone exit interview- which okay is a little impersonal, but we have two different locations so these things sometimes have to happen. But all we did was review the end of my benefits. Then they pointed out a link that I can use to “share my thoughts” on my employment. I haven’t filled it out yet because my thoughts were if they really wanted to know about how I feel they would have taken the time to speak with me in person (or over the phone in this case) about it. And it just seemed like a less than satisfying end to time there. I didn’t have anything bad to say- I left after seven years to do something that I couldn’t do there…but still. Is a exit interview survey becoming commonplace? Should I bother filling it out or is it totally not worth the time?

    2. JMW*

      It sounds like your tattoo will be showing when you turn up for work, so you may as well be honest in your interview about what you will look like if they hire you.

    3. BuildMeUp*

      I haven’t heard of exit interview surveys before. But it’s possible that they’ve had people in the past who haven’t felt comfortable sharing their honest thoughts in an exit interview, either because they feel awkward about giving negative feedback to someone’s face, or because people are worried about negative references in the future, etc. This might be their attempt to make it easier for everyone to give them honest feedback.

      Or it could just be so they can collect responses together and see if there’s an actual problem that needs addressing. …Or they could just be lazy and planning to throw all the responses in the trash, who knows! I would say if it’s a short survey, you might as will fill it out, and you could use it as an opportunity to highlight something you really liked about working there, or a great coworker that you felt didn’t get enough recognition.

    4. HRWitch*

      I’ve always used either an anonymous 3rd party survey, or an anonymous fill-in-and-mail exit interview form. In my HR experience (18+ years) the distance from the company allows the now-former employee space and privacy to be honest and forthright, without burning bridges. The surveys were actually the most used, and the most useful – filled with valid information and suggestions that could actually be translated into corporate/divisional actions. If you liked anything about your 7-year employer, please take the opportunity to tell them what that was, and where they missed the boat!

  38. IndianSummer*

    I’ve read the archives and all the comments on previous threads, but let’s talk tattoos and interviews.

    I live in a liberal city. I do not care for dress pants – I’m not comfortable in them, none that I have tried on fit like I want them to, they are blah on me, etc. I have a dress and a blazer for interviews. I have a small tattoo on my ankle (approx 2″ square). It’s hot now, so I cannot wear tights to an interview. Wearing tights would probably be weirder than showing a tattoo.

    I am reading the career guide at a non-profit where I have an upcoming phone interview, and hopefully (fingers crossed!) an in-person interview will follow. Their dress code is casual dress, dependent on the department. Basically, it says to use your best judgment for the way you dress.

    Would showing my tattoo during an interview be ok? Will anyone even notice the tattoo? Does it matter?

    1. Graciosa*

      This is completely a culture issue, and it’s going to be hard for anyone here to know how the interviewers at this particular firm will react.

      That said, do you really want to work there if they’re going to be that hung up on a small ankle tattoo?

      If it were gang affiliated and you were interviewing for a community outreach program in a rival gang’s territory, I could see a legitimate business problem with your tattoo, but that wasn’t in your letter. So I stand by the do you really want to work there if they care approach.

      Although in the interests of full disclosure, a well matched cover stick would take care of it without tights if you ever want to hide it.

      But interviews should include finding out if you and the company are a good fit for each other, so I tend to be in favor of being your real self.

    2. GOG11*

      Could you cover it with a bandaid or two? I have a tattoo on my wrist and I cover it up with a watch or bandaids if I’m interviewing simply because I don’t want to take a chance that the interviewer would view it negatively or that it would be a poor match for the office culture (which can be difficult to gauge from the outside, though it seems signs point to it being OK). Plus, even if the office is pretty relaxed, interviews often come with a different set of rules about formality.

      1. LCL*

        What GOG said. Slap a bandaid on it, the drugstore will have very large bandaids. There isn’t any easy way to know if your tattoo will be an issue.

    3. Retail Lifer*

      In real life, people don’t care if you have tattoos. At work, though, it’s surprising how many places restrict them. I have a couple of visible tattoos that I hide on interviews unless I know for certain that they’re allowed. Since I work in retail it’s easy to go in and scope the place out beforehand and see what the employee look like.

    4. TheExchequer*

      Most likely, if it’s on your ankle, nobody will notice it. They’ll be looking at your face, not your feet. And if they do notice it, chances are they won’t say anything about it unless they have one too. That said, if the tattoo is controversial or attention grabbing, I’d find a way to cover it up.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I have a few tattoos that are all covered up by a full suit but visible in more casual clothing. While no one at any of my jobs has seemed to care, I’ve always made sure they were covered for interviews, cause you never know. Could you wear cute booties to cover the tattoo, just to be safe?

    7. Roly Poly Little Bat Faced Girl*

      Would you be willing to wear some cover-up makeup for the interview?

      1. IndianSummer*

        I’ve tried cover-up makeup, but it still showed through. Maybe I just don’t have the right tools? I wear very little makeup. Suggestions?

        1. Gwen Soul*

          Get the type they use for costuming and stage, not cover up you would use on your face for a zit.

        2. super anon*

          hey, a question i can answer!

          so, what you’ll need is a red lip product, a concealer (you should use a high quality concealer for this. drugstore will work but you’ll be fighting with it to get enough coverage), and a powder to set the concealer after you’re done.

          first you’ll cover your entire tattoo and the area just outside of it with the red lip colour, this will neutralize the black lines in the tattoo and make it easier to cover. personally, i would use a liquid lipstick red because they dry matte and are next to impossible to remove so it won’t mix with your concealer. if you use a normal lipstick you can use a translucent power to set it and then leave it for ~5 min so it’s less wet and easier to work with.

          next, cover the red with your concealer. i recommend not using the concealer you use on your face and getting matched with one that is the same colour as your leg skin so it looks less fake. to apply the concealer you’re going to want to use a brush and pat it on the tattoo area rather than using large strokes. by patting you’ll get better coverage and you don’t run the risk of the red and the concealer mixing to create a super gross colour. take the concealer outside of the tattooed area so that it will blend with your natural skintone and not look like a square box on your leg.

          finally set the entire thing with a powder foundation or a translucent powder so that it will stay. if you can still see the tattoo you can do another layer of concealer over the powered and set first layer to try to get more more coverage.

          if you want a visual, type this into youtube for a video demo explaining it: “How to Cover Tattoos, Bruises, & Birthmarks!”, or use this search on google “site:reddit.com/r/makeupaddiction covering tattoos” to get a bunch of before and afters of the process.

          good luck on the interview!

        3. land of oaks*

          I don’t think you should cover it for this interview, but if you ever want to cover it in the future, look for specifically “Tattoo cover-up makeup.” You can buy it online. I have friends who have it for occasional use, and it lasts for a super long time.

    8. Persephone Mulberry*

      I don’t have tattoos, but as far as body adornment in general – I have a nose stud and I’ve never taken it out for an interview. I’m with the poster above – a company that would expect me to remove it is probably not a good culture fit for me.

    9. Kai*

      I think with the combination of living in a more liberal area, the fact that they have a casual dress code, and that the tat is on your ankle, you should be fine. Most people might not notice it at all.

      1. land of oaks*

        This. Don’t worry about it at all. A casual dress nonprofit is going to have no problem with a small ankle tattoo, I can almost 100% guarantee it. And if they do, that is a weird place, and I’m not sure you want to work there. ;)

    10. LPBB*

      I have a large Celtic band and knot tattoo around my ankle. I usually wear pants to interviews, but if I wear a skirt then I usually just wear black pantyhose. (I know that a lot of people have very strong emotions on this topic, but hose works for me for a variety of reasons.) It doesn’t completely cover the tattoo, if you know it’s there you can still see it, but it doesn’t leap out at you the way it would if all you saw was my blindingly white legs.

    11. skyline*

      Given all the information you’ve shared, I vote for showing your tattoo as long as the image itself is not controversial or offensive. There is a risk that they’d hold it against you, but it doesn’t sounds like they’d be a good fit for you if that was the case. And would you want to cover it forever in the future if that was the terms under which they hired you? More practically, a small tattoo on your ankle seems pretty innocuous to me, especially in a liberal city.

      (Personally, as a hiring manager, I am very unlikely to look at someone’s ankles during an interview. I would probably only notice a tattoo if it was on their face, neck, or wrists, since that’s what I see while we’re talking.)

    13. RR*

      I have a similarly-sized ankle tattoo and also work non-profit management. (I have just moved into a senior management role.) For my recent interview, and for all of my previous interviews over the last decade and a half plus, I have never covered the tattoo, and never had an issue. It’s been my experience that most people don’t even notice. Go with the dress and blazer and with confidence. Best of luck!

    14. Gene*

      Wear higher top shoes?

      I’ve worn body makeup before and there’s always the risk of rubbing against something like the door frame of your car getting in or out and smearing it. Then it would become obvious that you are trying to cover up something. If you are going to cover it, I agree with the large band aid approach.

      1. IndianSummer*

        I wish ankle booties or something similar would cover it, but it’s in an awkward position a little too high up.

        Side note: when people tell you that you might regret that tattoo later, it is sometimes true! Mine is not offensive, but it is silly and I wish I could get rid of it.

          1. IndianSummer*

            Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve not seriously looked into removal, but I should.

    15. Renee*

      I have an ankle tattoo and hate dress pants. The past few interviews I have gone to, I have simply worn dark hose and just figured they’d either like me or they wouldn’t. It hasn’t seemed like anyone cared about it. I’m currently working for a man who hates tattoos personally but has employees with visible tattoos because he recognizes that it’s not really important to how they do their jobs. I don’t want to take another job that dictates my appearance to that extent. At some point I may be desperate enough for a job to put a band-aid over it, but I feel like I’m too old to put up with the pettiness of it so maybe not. I am a lawyer, so I’ve had to deal with covering my tattoo in the past, but now that I’m in house on the admin/compliance side, I don’t think I could ever go back to an environment where it mattered.

      1. IndianSummer*

        Thanks for the feedback! I think I’ve decided to let the tattoo be visible for any potential interviews. I wear a lot of skirts and dresses, so it is going to be seen at some point. I may as well be up front about it.

  39. LizB*

    I’m going to miss many things about my current workplace after my contract ends, but the use of passive-aggressive “gotcha” tactics to make changes that staff won’t like is NOT one of them. It’s especially bad when my supervisors make me an instrument of these tactics, and then expect me to laugh about how awesome their strategy is with them. If Bob needs to make Change Z, fucking tell him that directly — don’t make me print up a bunch of brochures for clients about how awesome Change Z is and hope he doesn’t notice.

  40. Retail Lifer*

    I have a first-round interview for a position THAT IS NOT RETAIL! Pay and benefits would be far bettter, the schedule would actually be a little worse (more nights but at least almost no weekends), and, again, NOT RETAIL.

    However, if the stars align and I make it to round two, I’m actually kind of screwed. The interviews would be the week after I get back from vacation. Due to that and some medical issues, I’m all out of time off and the distance is way too far to be able to leave work and come back. I’ll figure something out though.

    I’ve been trying to escape from retail management for a decade. Please, strangers of the internet, send some positive energy my way!

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Sending positive vibes– but if you get it, what will we call you in the future??

    8. CA Admin*

      This is when it’s a good idea to come down with “food poisoning” for the day–it’s spontaneous and you’ll be better by your next shift and everyone’s been there, so not too much suspicion.

      (I used this excuse and many others while interviewing for non-retail jobs back when I was an Assistant Manager at a pet food store.)

    9. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

      Here are some plus signs 4 U:
      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      As someone who stayed in retail much longer than planned, good luck!!!!

  41. SystemsLady*

    I’m not sending this in because I know the answer – just looking for a yes/no or suggestions from people who’ve had to address these types of concerns before.

    Usually we get at least a token raise every year during our anniversary month, and since the company was unusually successful last year, we weren’t given a reason to think that will change. Only rarely are we formerly notified about it and we don’t have a formal review process – both are supposedly on the way once they get “the software” to do reviews – but I did have an informal review with my manager and he had nothing but good things to say.

    Well, my anniversary month and both of its paychecks (the one we just got is technically next month’s) have now come and gone and I did not see an increase.

    I’m going to ask advice from trusted coworkers who’ve been around longer than I have on who I should talk to. That’s its own problem.

    What I want advice on from here is trying not to sound entitled to a raise when I bring it up with the right person, especially because I received a very good bonus this year. Would saying “I didn’t notice a raise this month and was wondering if that was correct” cover it? Management really should be communicating to their employees about raises and telling them if there’s going to be a change this year, regardless of what software they have or don’t have, so I don’t feel bad about asking and know it has to be addressed.

    My manager is in the process of leaving over the next month, by the way, though of course I don’t think I would mention that in the conversation.

    1. SystemsLady*

      *formally, not formerly

      Though I heard that formerly they were better about this :)

    2. NacSacJack*

      I would ask your outgoing manager. He or she may have forgotten to submit the paperwork. If it happens every year, itwould not be out of the ordinary to ask.

    3. Jennifer*

      Having recently watched National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation…. yes, management needs to tell people if there’s not going to be a raise this year. Even Clark admitted it would have been relatively okay if he’d had a heads-up about a lack of bonus instead of being surprised with the Jelly of the Month Club.

    4. Bee*

      I was in this exact situation a couple of years ago. I framed it as “I know raises aren’t guaranteed, but we do typically get something. Since it’s unusual and we haven’t discussed it, I just wanted to make there weren’t any performance concerns.” It turns out my boss had forgotten the paperwork and was mortified. I got apologies from her and her boss, and I was glad I didn’t leave it for too long. I felt EXTREMELY uncomfortable having to ask though, for the exact reason you do – not wanting to seem entitled. It also made me vow never to put one of my direct reports in that situation.

  42. Overthinking Anon*

    I did it! I have an offer. I asked for a little more money and they’re going to get back to me today, but I think we’ll be able to agree on it. I’m so excited both for the job and to finally, finally move back to my home city. Thanks again to the posters who encouraged me to go for it.

    I’ve really wanted to own my home again for a while, and now that I’ll be in a city I want to stay in permanently, it might be time. But I’m not sure I can pull off a purchase from afar while finishing my current job, moving, starting a new one. It’s probably smarter to plan to rent for a year, right, even if I hate moving?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I would wait a year. You want to know that you want to stay at that job and in that city, and it’ll give you more time to scout out neighborhoods and all that.

      Also, congrats!

    2. OriginalEmma*

      Renting is a good idea, especially if you are new to the city. You want to give yourself time to adjust and rest before taking on the task of buying a home. Besides, it will give you the chance to see what neighborhood really speaks to you before setting down roots.

    4. jamlady*

      Recently in this position, I actually called up a realtors office for advice. She suggested renting for a year so I’m 6 months in one town right where I work, then I’ll be 6 months in a nearby town once my husband can get moved out here, and then we’ll buy in town 2. I’ve decided on ridiculously small and cheap places as well to save money. I’m happy with the choice!

    5. Natalie*

      I’d wait. I get it, I hate moving too. But you should buy a house because it’s the right house and you want to own it, not just for the sake of owning a home in the abstract. Your current circumstances sound like they might push you to make a lot of compromises (you’re on a timetable, you’re not there to go to showings). If you compromise a lot and end up with a home that’s “just okay”, was that worth avoiding one move? Plus, you’ll get a better mortgage if you haven’t just switched jobs.

      If you can afford it, consider putting any non-critical furniture, mementos, etc, in storage for 6 months so you at least don’t have to unpack and repack them.

    6. Amanda*

      In addition to the points pro-renting that others have made, especially when you are starting at a new job and moving to a different city (even if you are returning), a landlord covers the various expenses that one incurs (like, for instance, if your furnace spontaneously craps out), whereas when you buy, you’re responsible for all of that. Might be worth taking into consideration since you’ll still be getting settled for the first year.

      1. Overthinking Anon*

        Thanks for all the thoughtful replies! I do know this city pretty well (the only reason I’d contemplate it) but now that I’m looking at an actual start date, it seems like too much to take on, too fast. I hadn’t thought about less favorable terms or compromises yet. And yes, I once took a job that wasn’t a good fit and a mortgage would have increased my trapped feelings of panic; I don’t want to overreact to that experience but if others are bringing it up independently, it’s legit.

  43. TheExchequer*

    This week has not been a good one for me. Not only have I stopped getting interviews, my boss (we’ll call him Will) dragged me into a meeting with a coworker (we’ll call him Greg). Will basically told me I wasn’t working hard enough and implied all I do around here is answer phones and e-mails.

    Uh, excuse you? I’m also doing the work of a social media manager, which you were looking to hire full time for before you decided I could just do it!

    Then, when Greg told Will about the e-mails that have been piling up (because I assigned them to Greg! Because that’s the only way I can do my job and the three other jobs I’m currently doing!), Greg was off the hook. Ugh.

    When *I* went to tell Will about a mistake I made about an order, I was told that everyone in the office was allowed to make mistakes, but not me. Because it costs too much money when I do it.

    I just can’t even.

    Who else has tales of that one coworker who seems to get away with everything?

    1. YesThis*

      *Raises hand*

      We have one guy in our office that puts in maybe 3 hours of work each week, then spends the rest of his work week watching YouTube videos and full-length movies. And he keeps getting promotions. Very demoralizing.

    2. Anie*

      Did you hear about the time (I think I’ve posted it here), my office manager started publically calling me a bitch? As a joke, riiiiight. And even though I pulled out all the AAM tricks, nothing changed, no one blinked, nothing. Well, until I refused to lie over and take it and the office manager threw a tanty, which caused a huge rift in the office, and who now refuses to speak to me….

      I was talking to a co-worker about a birth control clinical trial I can across that had odd methods (I work in clinical trial publishing), and said something about how difficult it would be to have a baby unexpectedly. I was spoken to/privately warned by my boss that there were many parents in the office and I had to be careful about the topics I covered.

      Same office.

    3. Retail Lifer*

      One manager here has been spoken to by HR about sexual harassment and endangering workers by being too lazy to correct unsafe situations. He almost lost his job but didn’t. He obviously feels safe now, as he frequently comes in late, leaves early, and naps in his office. We’re both on salary, but *I* get crap for being 15 minutes late once in a while.

    4. Kai*

      I have a coworker who can be a real asshole to his coworkers, always has to be told at least twice to complete even the simplest of projects, and would never go to meetings unless I reminded him because he never looks at his calendar.

      But because he manages the system that the rest of the office depends on, and can be really charming when he feels like it, he gets away with his bullshit. I have complained twice about this person, once to my boss and once to our director, because I just didn’t know how to deal with it anymore.

    5. Sandy*

      Crazy boss’ assistant went into the computer files that my colleague and I had created for a big project, deleted them all, then went to Crazy Boss and said “you told Sandy and colleague last week to create those files. I went looking for them and they weren’t there. Just thought you should know.”

      We only found out because we asked the IT guy to do “forensic check” on the computer history.

      2. Mimmy*

        Whoa!!

        P.S. I didn’t know you could go back and figure out what happens to computer files. Interesting!

        1. Sandy*

          It wasn’t especially sophisticated as a stunt. The IT guy basically went in and looked at the “action logs” (I think that’s what he called it?) for the folder. You know the things that says “last accessed: date, time. “. Apparently if you actually know something about IT (which I clearly don’t), you can find out what computer did it, etc.

          1. Bea W*

            They can also often restore the delete files on top of finding out who deleted them. My co-workers and I have accidentally deleted things and called down to IT to have the files fished out of the virtual trash. *phew* If they couldn’t restore the actual file, they were usually able to get something from an earlier date from a back-up.

    6. Frustrated and Confused*

      At my last job, we had one manager who was chronically late every day (30 minutes or so), would leave early, complained about having to work until 7p when the others had to work until 10p (and I had to work until 12a), talked a good talk but then crawled to her office (she was the cashier manager, so she had the office with the safe inside) instead of walking any sort of the walk, and would harp on the walkie about not having enough cashiers to meet demand, pull everyone else’s people, but would rarely ever get up there and help cover the registers herself. After seven months of her trying to fix the cashiering problem, we were still understaffed; she was completely ineffectual. She fed us bad information about what support she needed to get her numbers right, and then blamed us for not helping her enough. She expected the rest of the management team to know and support her area (e.g., how many cashiers she needed at any given time, credit card apps, lot status, sending everyone except two people from the floor up to be a cashier, etc), but she wouldn’t lift a finger to help support your area.

      I was over logistics/supply chain and was off one day; she was one of two managers in the store, and the truck wasn’t done by the time the overnight manager came in–because more than half the team called in and no one was pulled to go back and help get it done. Total disaster. She told the overnight manager that she didn’t even know there was a truck (like, there’s a schedule for that? Same truck day, same truck bay? Holy retail, Batman!) and didn’t know about the call-ins. The store manager said, “Oh, but she’s busy with the cashiers. She shouldn’t know about trucks. Also, she’s, you know… She wears scarves.” (I’m a woman too, FWIW. And I like scarves.) Our manager LOVED her and would give her every excuse possible.

      About a week after that, the store manager came to me and said, “You, Cashier Manager, and Other Manager are the only managers who are on track for promotion.” And I was like, “Uh…. Thanks for lumping me in with that ineffectual, lazy manager who can’t fix her own area and doesn’t pay attention to anything except her phone while hiding in the office. That’s great.”

      Very demoralizing.

      (P.S.: I loved the day she came back from lunch and complained that the wait at the nail salon was too long for her to get her nails done. I was dripping in sweat from helping unload an 18 pallet grocery truck with a manual pallet jack. But our manager just freaking loved her.)

      1. Retail Lifer*

        There’s a lazy idiot manager in every store. For some reason, they’re always able to pull the wool over everyone else’s eyes and somehow look like a star despite being absolutely terrible. Been there, seen that so many times!

    7. AnonGovProblem*

      I posted a few weeks ago about an old racist/sexist guy who’s government in an office of minoroties and how he’s had now 16 and counting complaints against him in the last few months. I sit right outside of his office and have to listen to him hiss at people and say things like “damn rice eaters” every 5 minutes. One of our coworkers is having panic attacks because he’s been going after to her a lot lately and my company has decided to throw a lawsuit against this department. Likely though, nothing will happen aside from is losing the contract.

      There’s always one. >:(

    8. TL*

      Yes, he was the Owner’s boyfriend, I ended up doing half his job for him because every time I pushed back that I didn’t have time or asked him to help with something, he tell the Owner that I was slacking and having him do my job so I wasn’t doing anything. It got to the point where I purchased a literal one-way ticket out of that town and gave notice, they ended up having to hire 3 people to fill in and do my duties until they caught him up. Five years later I hear he’s still at the company as the Managing Director and mis-managed it to the point that it can barely pay the bills.

        1. Anonsie*

          When I tried to come up with some examples, so many flooded to mind that I just left it at that.

          I guess a good one is I once worked somewhere we had variable shifts (different days and start times) that didn’t require all day coverage, so Lana works MTW from 5pm-10pm and Sue works MTW from 8am-12pm or whatever. A lot of students working around their class schedule. We set these in advance and if we wanted to change we had to request advance permission and schedule a date then, and doing this was really frowned upon and you always got a stern talking-to if you moved days.

          But there was this one woman who was allowed to just come and go as she pleased without even telling our boss, she would just decide to come in a different day and wouldn’t tell a single person. Our boss would come in and she wouldn’t be there and boss would just be like “Oh, she must have decided to work another day instead! No biggie.” But if you asked for a day to be moved weeks in advance she’d lecture you about responsibility.

    10. BananaPants*

      Yup. Coworker has a PhD in engineering and has a side job as an adjunct at a local university. He’s spent the last 7-8 years in our group literally doing nothing but moonlighting for his adjunct job (grading, prepping lectures and problem sets, etc.) and playing fantasy sports or watching YouTube videos. On the exceedingly rare occasion he has to produce anything, he usually trolls the network drive and takes someone else’s work, then rushes for an hour to add to it.
      He gets a 6 figure salary for doing nothing. He must know where bodies are buried or something, because we can’t figure out why senior management tolerates it.

  44. Anon for this*

    Oh good, I’ve been waiting for this!

    I am dealing with a health problem at the moment. It’s minor in that I can work around it without too much trouble, but it is causing me pain and it’s something that I want to fix as soon as possible so that I can get back to my full exercise routine (and, hell, doing my regular work without workarounds). My coworkers are aware of what the problem is.

    A couple of my colleagues were pushing very hard for me to attend an off-site meeting early next week that would have conflicted with one of my treatment appointments for the health issue. I pushed back and my boss was with me. However, they pressed so hard, plus my boss’s boss, with whom I don’t have a great relationship, gave me the stink eye as well, I ended up agreeing to attend the meeting.

    I get it. This is an important meeting. However, complicating the issue is that it’s quite difficult to get appointments at this treatment center. I had asked to reschedule and was told if I did, the next appointment was two weeks out. I had already given up another appointment in that two-week period at the center for work reasons (different client, different set of coworkers), so I was digging my heels in because, you know, I want to get treated. Me calling in for the meeting instead of being there face to face would not have been ideal, but I think it would work.

    Am I right to be pissed? Or should I be willing to bend because what I’m dealing with is annoying and sometimes painful, but not an imminent threat to my health? Part of me wants to apply for intermittent FMLA (not that it would help for this instance, I’ve already lost the appointment and I can’t get it back), but I’m wondering whether that would make an already rocky situation with my boss’s boss even worse.

    Sigh.

    1. Graciosa*

      No one else can really make the underlying decision about this (what’s more important – meeting or treatment) for you – but no, I don’t think you’re right to be pissed about missing the appointment.

      Not because you don’t have a right to be pissed about the pressure – you do. Your co-workers and boss’ boss were way out of line.

      The reason you don’t have the right to be pissed about missing the appointment is because you had your boss’ backing for your decision and you changed it. You agreed to give up the appointment. You don’t get to be pissed about things you agreed to – especially when you had your boss’ support for not agreeing.

      Most of the letter seems to be rehashing the reasons for why you should not have caved – and I agree – but that ship has sailed. Learn the lesson and don’t repeat the mistake, but don’t displace your anger about your decision on to its advocates.

      1. Anon for this*

        I would never have caved to the pressure of the coworkers alone — I have a pretty good spine for that. It was the boss’s boss’s stink eye, given that I already know he questions the strength of my work (he’s a newcomer; my boss and I have worked together much longer, and she trusts me — but of course she also can’t be feeling 100% secure with the new big-boss).

        I just hate that I’m in this situation where this is even a question! I can’t imagine, if a colleague or employee told me, “I have a health issue that requires treatment,” I wouldn’t do my utmost to find a workaround instead of pressuring her to change her mind.

    2. Retail Lifer*

      Please don’t miss any more of your treatments. Get a doctor’s note stating you can’t miss them or reschedule them. Even if that’s not entirely true, my doctor is always willing to slightly exaggerate.

      I’m also dealing with some medical stuff and being given a hard time about needing time off. My boss is OK with it (I give as much notice as I can, get my shift covered if needed, and make up the time another day), but upper management is starting to give me looks. Upper management doesnt’t really like me and my position itself is in danger of being eliminated or drastically changed, so I don’t want to annoy anyone, but what choice do we have? I have yet to see any specialist who keeps hours after 5pm or works weekends.

    3. Hlyssande*

      I think you’re right to be frustrated in this situation. I’m mad at your colleagues and boss’s boss on your behalf.

      You changed your decision because they pressured you hardcore and that really sucks. I know that I would probably cave in as well in the same situation, especially with the boss’s boss leaning on me for it. It doesn’t sound like there’s a good outcome for you in this either way.

      If you see the regular treatments continuing for awhile (and you’re in the US), you may be able to look into FMLA for it to allow regular appointments. An old coworker of mine had that set up for weekly treatments at the same time and her new boss had to deal with it (even though he was very displeased).

    4. Tagg*

      Absolutely pursue FMLA! It’s fairly easy to get set up, and it gives you legal protections. If you say you have an appointment that falls under your FMLA protection, they /cannot/ pressure you to change it. Or if they do, they get in Big Trouble.

      My (amazing) supervisor urged me to file for FMLA when I got a written reprimand due to frequently being 5-10 minutes late in the month of February (I have depression/anxiety that I’m actively trying to get under control, and the winter months only exacerbate things). My doctor signed and gave me the ability to be late up to 30 minutes, five days a month. I’ve also got protection for any time I need to set up an appointment. I’ve not actually had to use one of those days yet, but just having that protection and knowing that I’m not going to lose my job if there’s a day that I have a flare-up does wondrous things for my peace of mind.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Others have this pretty well covered. So one thing- ease up on you. The problem here was that you did not foresee the pressure and you did not have a plan for it. Now you are older and wiser- build a plan to go up against the pressure. Assume it will happen again and have several sentences carved into your brain that you might find useful. The doctor’s note really is not a bad idea, especially if the appointments are predictable. “Anon, must keep treatment appointments. They are scheduled ever other Tuesday at 3:30 pm.”

      Sometimes we need a little extra to get our points across. I know when I did not feel great, I needed outside back up because I was not the best advocate for myself. I was too busy not feeling great.

  45. Katie the Fed*

    Following up on the “intern who brought in a cot” story from the other day –

    Are there any absolutely legendary tales of bad behavior in your workplace?

    One I thought of –
    – A new hire who thought it would be funny to send the Secretary of Defense a Secretary’s Day card.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I do too, actually. But it’s the kind of thing that sounds hilarious in theory – you don’t ACTUALLY do it. I’m not sure if Secretary Rumsfeld actually received the card or it got stopped at the staff level.

        1. littlemoose*

          But the new hire acquired, wrote, and sent or attempted to send such a card?! WOW.

    2. TheExchequer*

      I’ve only heard this one in legend, so I can’t speak to it’s truthfulness, but apparently one former worker here walked into the office one day, grabbed their stuff, shouted to the coworker who told me this story that they were quitting and to tell the bosses, then left.

    3. GOG11*

      In my first full time job out of college, the head of the Department would play Bubble Blast while talking to you…with her back to you…and her screen facing you, so you knew exactly what she was doing. She’d just rest her chin in her hand while clicking away and mumbling her side of the conversation. She was pretty close to retirement, though, so I guess that’s how she got away with it. Not legendary, but it’s probably the most overtly IDGAF behavior I’ve seen to date.

    4. OfficePrincess*

      Cracking a beer on his lunch break. At a workplace that you can’t be at if you have any alcohol in your system at all. Before (attempting) to return to work operating heavy machinery.

      1. Jake*

        That’s a constant issue in my industry. Automatic firing and loss of certification when it happens, but it still happens shockingly frequently.

        1. OfficePrincess*

          The truly crazy part is that he was here with all of his coworkers and supervisor around. Like, dude, at least pretend to hide it.

    5. Snoskred*

      I once took out an entire call centre for over two hours in the middle of a busy work day, using the high lift to get a fruit muffin out of the toaster. No computers, no phones, nothing was working.

      The bad behaviour was on the part of the person who designed the recently installed and upgraded electrical system so that the kitchen circuit took out all the other circuits in the building.

      I’ve been a bit scared of toasters since then, because the thing sparked and leaped into the air.

      On the plus side, this did not happen on a weekend or in the middle of the night – and it would have happened eventually to someone because of the bad design. Plus they discovered the emergency generator did not work, at all.

      1. Hlyssande*

        You were just the unlucky one who discovered the issues, but I’m sure the company was glad you did before it caused even more trouble!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        That is spectacular. You could not have fit any more electrical problems into that story. The story has every electrical problem known to mankind. I hope the people who put that system in felt repercussions.

        I am sorry this happened to you. Yes, I would be afraid of the toaster myself.

        There was an accident in the news where a few people were blown threw a concrete wall when one pulled a circuit breaker. I am (mostly) not afraid of circuit breakers but I think and I wonder each time I have to check on one.

    6. AVP*

      Back in the wild 90s, there were stories of interns being sent to buy drugs on East 2nd St for their bosses, as well as one legendary film pioneer who used to have his assistants rub skin ointment directly onto his bald scalp for him (my boss was a direct witness to this, I believe it’s true).

      Also, on a work trip, someone needed to be bailed out of jail to get to a critical morning meeting on time (he had gotten into a bar fight the night before, I believe). Same person, on a different work trip, didn’t show up in the hotel lobby one day. People were calling his room, he wouldn’t answer. Cell phone was shut off. Finally they had to bribe a hotel maid to key into the room where they found him passed out. Dumped a glass of water on him, he woke up and made the meeting.

      Everyone in these stories has gotten sober by now, as far as I know. It’s rather boring around here these days.

    7. SaraV*

      Bad or stupid? This one is from my IT security officer at a former job.

      Mary and Jane were co-workers that became friends. Mary and Jane had a falling out, and weren’t friends anymore. Mary figured out Jane’s password – it was something simple like Jane’s daughter’s name and DOB. So Mary would log onto Jane’s account ever so often and do who knows what.

      Fast forward an unknown amount of time. We’re having problems where anyone who is at home or off-site can’t remote into our network. Mary is at home, tries to log into Jane’s account, but can’t. She calls the helpdesk as Jane, saying she can’t log in. The helpdesk informs her of the problem, but opens a ticket all the same. When a ticket is opened, that software automatically sends an email to the user with the ticket number and a summary of the issue.

      Jane is at work on-site, and sees this email. She calls the helpdesk, explaining she never opened a ticket. The Powers That Be went back and listened to the tape of the helpdesk call, and Jane was able to identify Mary because she had a very distinct voice.

      So during Mary’s “exit interview”, it was asked if she had ever seen Jane’s paystub. (They were available online) She admits she “accidentally” saw it. Right. You had to make 4-5 very distinct clicks to see it.

      TL;DR – Don’t make your password your child’s name and DOB

    8. MaryMary*

      A division of OldJob had a large call center operation, and the call center would hire temps during its busy season. The clothing many of the temps chose to wear (we were business casual) was legendary. Every year we’d eagerly await the new batch of temps and reminisce about fondly remembered past outfits. Mini skirts and booty shorts, profane t shirts, sweatpants with suggestive words bedazzled on the butt, very large ladies wearing zero undergarments…my own personal favorite was the guy who wore overalls, a plaid shirt, and work boots. He looked like he was going to drive a tractor instead of answer the phone.

      1. BenAdminGeek*

        Us too! And the year they let everyone wear Halloween costumes to work was legendary. So many inappropriate Catwoman costumes, it hurt my brain.

        1. MaryMary*

          My OldJob was doing ben admin…did you happen to work for a company in the northern Chicago suburbs?

          1. BenAdminGeek*

            Well… there are 2 there. OldJob was the one with its main campus in the northeast (where I worked). NewJob is the one with its main campus in the northern Chicago suburbs (the big name in the industry).

            Unfortunately, I’m WFH so don’t get to see any great outfits now! I guess I could dress the cat up, but that seems problematic.

            1. MaryMary*

              I think your NewJob is my OldJob. :-) I’m told they hire fewer temps these days, so there aren’t as many outfits to ogle anymore.

              1. BenAdminGeek*

                My wife enjoyed guessing what department people worked in by how inappropriate their outfits were.

                1. MaryMary*

                  Oh yeah. You could pretty clearly tell who was an actuary, who was a consultant, who was in ben admin, and who was CS.

    9. Bekx*

      The owner of my company is notoriously late. He’s the nicest, most amazing guy though!

      I guess one person got fed up with him always being late with meetings, so he said that anyone who was not in the conference room by 11:00 sharp would be locked out. 11:00 came along, the guy locked the meeting room door and essentially locked out the president of my company! He was fired, I believe.

    10. Cath in Canada*

      We share our building with another company. My team was coming back from a meeting once and all got in the elevator together, along with another colleague who runs the office coffee club and was carrying a huge box of coffee beans. A woman from the other company got in with us. Someone from my team made a comment about the size of the box of coffee beans and how good they smelled; the woman from the other company very cheerily said “smells like poo!”

      She got out at the next floor; as the doors closed, we all looked at each other and burst out laughing!

      I’m sure she was mortified as soon as she left the elevator, but her comment lives on. Any time anyone who was in that elevator makes coffee, someone else from the group will announce “smells like poo!”

    11. Jennifer*

      * We had a “former model” who was in her fifties and wearing very, very short skirts, and one time a mesh top, to work, to wait on people. Not that she didn’t look good for her age, but hoo boy, would that not fly now.
      * We had one lady who I’m told was high on marijuana at work at times, which explained why she was frequently sleepy, had a lot of snacks, and after she retired, a lot of errors were found. Before I got here, she had some kind of SLEEPING curtain/pillow setup under her desk, where snoring could be heard. Also, my boss discovered that she’d fallen asleep on the toilet one day.

    12. land of oaks*

      Not sure if this is “bad” or just bizarre.

      Entry-level fundraising employee, was good at his job, but a little awkward, and would drop into conversation that he was Born-Again Christian somewhat frequently, so we all knew. That’s fine, no big.

      Easter-time rolls around, he comes around the office one day, dropping by everyone’s desk and saying, “Hi, just want to come around and wish everyone a happy Easter, (blahblah rando small talk)” and hands everyone a folded letter in an envelope. After he leaves the room and we start opening these letters, they are a long, evangelizing letter, personalized to each person, about how Easter is so important to him, he wants to bring each of us to Jesus, he is available to talk about, here is why this is related to the mission of the organization, etc. He even left them on the desks of people who were not in when he went around.

      We all go to his boss, who is a super young manager, but does a great job of sitting him down and explaining that there is a difference between telling people you are a Christian and using work time to actively evangelize people and he needs to not bother other people about their religious beliefs.

      A week or so later, some of us start finding letters IN OUR DESK DRAWERS that he is going around and leaving when we are not around. And now these letters start having vague hints about how if we don’t let him bring us to Jesus we are going to burn in hell and that makes him sad, etc. So. Creepy. Finally they had to fire him, which was a shame for him, because he actually did his job well.

      1. land of oaks*

        I know some others involving epic levels of managers macking on every girl on staff and trying to get everyone to go out with them, but those just make me depressed and angry so I don’t really want to go into them. :\

      2. afiendishthingy*

        one of my coworkers had a report who gave her a Jehovah’s Witness pamphlet.

    13. AnotherFed*

      We had a Mad Shitter for a few months – he would leave piles of poo in random places around the office, and on a couple of occasions used it as finger paint on the walls. On one occasion, he left a fairly soft pile of poo on the inside of a door that opens inwards so that it made a nasty poo smear across the carpet and on the underside of the door. They never did catch whoever it was.

      1. Windchime*

        These poo posts always confuse me. Who are these people who do this kind of thing? It’s apparently pretty common because I’ve seen versions of this mentioned on AAM before. It’s just so…..strange. Like something a baby who didn’t know any better might do.

  46. Kate*

    Admittedly not work related, but is anyone else having issues with ads that autoplay on the AAM comment pages and prevent you from scrolling? It comes on with the sound muted, which is appreciated, but I can’t scroll past it – it just keeps bumping me back up to where the ad is so I have to watch it. Sometimes refreshing the page will load a different ad, which solves the problem, but can we just do away with these altogether?

    Sorry if someone else already brought this up, can’t read the comments due to scrolling issues!

    1. Not Today Satan*

      That happened to me recently and was really annoying. It only stopped doing that when Shockwave or Java or whatever it was crashed.

    3. YWD*

      Just had that happen for the first time with a MGM Grand ad. Once it finished playing I could scroll past it.

    4. MaryMary*

      Yes, but only on my desktop computer. My ipad and phone don’t have that issue.

    6. Nina*

      Yes, it’s happened several times today. I tried pausing the ad and the scroll bar still kept jumping back to the ad.

    7. Cathy*

      I thought it was just me! It is incredibly annoying and I can’t install any ad-blocking software to stop it.

      1. blackcat*

        It’s not just this site, though–I’ve encountered some other blogs that clearly use the same “AdChoices” system as you. It’s actually what finally motivated me to install an ad-blocker.

        Since it seems to be sort of wide spread on the internet, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a hard problem to fix :(

  47. Marie*

    So I’ve written in before about how I’m in a situation where my employer has been indefinitely renewing my “temp contract” for the last year and a half with promises that I will be made permanent by the next contract. I’m month-to-month right now (went from 6 month long contracts to 3 month long, etc). I’ve been looking for another job for about 7-8 months now but nothing yet. Yesterday my contract was renewed for yet another month with yet another empty promise, and I found myself wishing that they would just forget to renew it so that I can legally be terminated (I can’t afford to quit and not be eligible for EI) and be able to move on with my life. The stress of this precarious employment situation has taken a huge toll on my physical and mental health, and as I’m unable to find other work, I feel like I’m being forced to choose between my well-being and paying my bills.

    This is why my employer (big name Canadian University – if you’ve heard of any, it’s this one!) has basically ceased hiring regular staff and has been replacing all permanent positions with full-time temp staff, so they can increase their hold over their workers. Productivity and morale have plummeted in the last 2-3 years and turnover has been ridiculously high for a university which once prided itself on how their employees would stick around for decades. They are one of the biggest employers in the city and continuously ranked as one of the city’s top 15 employers. Very discouraging.

    1. Steve G*

      That sounds really frustrating, I also wish they would just forget to renew it, it sounds very, very frustrating. It’s also frustrating that at work as an employee you are expected to solve problems ASAP, but “problems” like this on the employer end are allowed to sit and fester……..

  48. Lionness*

    I…don’t know if I’m being overly sensitive but here goes:

    We have this new requirement in our department. It is hard for the team members and many of them are stating it is outright not possible. Unfortunately, it is a requirement coming from several management levels above me and my manager so we have to support the requirement while also trying to find ways to support the team in this new, very difficult task.

    Here is where I am frustrated. My team is not being held to the same standard as the other teams. I thought this was just a thing we had to do. I became aware yesterday that the other teams have been told it is a performance requirement and will have to be included in reviews. But not my team. My team is not newer than the other teams, they do the exact same job and perform at the same level.

    Part of me says it is nice my team isn’t being pushed as hard on this but the other side is worried. If this becomes known to the other teams it will create a divide and we are already fighting against that – I don’t need another obstacle.

    Obviously I am going to talk to my manager about this to get the why but it just seems like…I don’t know. Maybe they thought my team wasn’t as capable, as ready? I can’t think of a good reason why they wouldn’t be held to the same standard and that kind of irks me.

        1. Anie*

          Then I…I don’t know. But am super sad for you. And surprised no one else has any ideas.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Please do find out the reason why very soon. It could be that your team will be doing something different so it does not matter. It could be that they do not have enough work for all teams so one team gets to skip the requirement. Or perhaps it will be on a rotational basis that one team will not need to meet the requirement for one month and yours is the first.

  49. Anie*

    Tiny rant. I can’t stand the uppermost manager at my work. I’m sure he has good qualities because how else would he have the position, but he drives me nuts! It almost physically hurts me to talk to him. Here are some examples.

    Him: “So where does the name Anie come from? Is that like your middle name?”

    Me: “It’s actually the second half of Stephanie. It’s a less common nickname, but I’ve run into a few other people who’ve done the same thing.”

    Him: “Whoa. I know where it comes from, thanks. I was just asking a simple question. There is no reason to get defensive.”

    How about this one:

    Him: “Oh wow, you went to the same college my son is attending? Jeeze, tuition is so expensive! I can barely keep up paying for it. And he has an apartment in that really wealthy downtown area all by himself I pay for too. I just feel like my salary isn’t enough you know?”

    Me: “………” In my head–“I make a tenth of what you make.”

      1. jamlady*

        “I don’t think anybody has called me a butthead since the 9th grade.”

        “Maybe not to your face.”

        I don’t care how old we are. That word is perfect.

        1. Sarah Nicole*

          Haha, I just watched Legally Blonde a couple weeks ago! Such a perfect movie. Also I will never give up saying that word!

    2. Dasha*

      It seems like maybe these are strange ways he’s trying to connect with you and have small talk? Are his conversations like this with everyone?

      1. Anie*

        He is trying SO hard to connect with me, which is probably why he never shuts up about his son’s school.

        But that response, “there’s no need to get defensive,” yeah, in the 8 months we’ve worked together, he’s ended up saying to me about a dozen times. And I’m never defensive. It’s always the dumbest question that I really am not putting much thought into in the first place because it’s so low on my “I give a shit” meter. This most recent time I even got direct about it: “Hey, you know, you say you feel I’m being defensive quit often, but I feel you’re misinterpreting my expressions.” His response: “It was just a simple question. I’m just asking, but it’s fine. There’s no need to be so defensive.”

        I’m seriously on the verge of saying, “This is how I look when irritated! Next time I’m defensive, I’ll make sure to show you that expression so you can stop confusing the two.”

          1. Anie*

            Honestly, I probably am. I already have a strong resting bitch face and I find him incredibly hard to deal with, so perhaps what he’s interpreting as defensiveness is actually my severe reluctance to speak to him. But still, I don’t understand where he’s getting defensive. I basically have no expression when he tries to talk to me because it’s already so hard for me to stay professional.

        3. Anonsie*

          I read a series of studies recently that when women had a neutral tone of voice (vs being happy/excited or angry/tense, just middle of the road tone) in different settings, people interpreted it as her being angry or hostile significantly more often than when it was a man using a neutral tone in the same setting. I would bet real American dollars that your neutral “don’t care” voice is setting him off as you being angry because we tend to skew neutral for women as being extra sweet, not actually neutral.

    3. Retail Lifer*

      I don’t think I could hold a conversation with this person and not turn into a snarky b****.

    5. Christy*

      My boss complains about stuff like that, and he easily makes double what I do. Maybe don’t pay for all of your kids’ college, then, if you can’t afford it.

      He also took his promotion for the money and would be a far better analyst.

      1. BananaPants*

        Like the time last year when my manager was complaining about not liking the new granite countertops he had installed in his kitchen, using the bonus that he got thanks to his team’s hard work (none of us are bonus-eligible). This in a year where I got a lower-than-average merit increase for the sole reason that I’d had a baby the year before and was out of the office for a couple of months.
        Dude, my heart BLEEDS for you and your granite countertops – want to swap for my 20 year old rose pink laminate countertops?

        1. TL -*

          My brother makes between 3-4x what I do and last Christmas, after I said money was tight due to buying presents, proceeded to complain about how expensive his international vacation was (that he paid for him and his girlfriend. Though he couldn’t pay for anything for me when I went to visit. Sigh.)

    6. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      … If you know where it comes from, why did you ask??? Hopefully you’re able to avoid him in most cases

    7. Carrie in Scotland*

      Where I work is currently trying to voluntarily lose some staff.

      At the beginning of the week, an email was sent to this mail list (for things to buy/sell/advice etc) that this researcher had given back 10% of his salary for the next 5 years to try and save money and “encouraged us all to do the same”.

      Well, yeah, that’d be nice but do you know how much I actually make!?

    8. Not So NewReader*

      …”There’s no reason to get defensive.”

      “Gee, you say that a lot. And I am concerned why you feel the need to say that.”

      1. Have courage and be kind - Austin, TX*

        “I’m wondering why you often interpret my answers to your questions as “getting defensive”. Perhaps we have a different communication style that makes you read defensiveness when I’m simply trying to give you a direct answer to your question?”

        Perhaps you could say something like this, to see if he realizes he’s simply misinterpreting things?

  50. Happy New Employee But...*

    Looking for input: I just started a new job about a month ago and I love it! Another woman started a job at the same company a few weeks before me and has latched on to me (to be clear, she is in a completely different role and function and we will likely never work together). By latched, I mean moving into a cube next to mine, constantly talking to and interrupting me, asking me to lunch every day, inviting herself to lunches I’ve arranged with others, asking to go get coffee every day, trying to make plans outside of work, etc.

    She is really nice but hasn’t worked for the last five years and isn’t the most socially aware. To make it worse, she is going through a divorce and wants to talk about it with me ALL of the time and in great detail. I went through a divorce and I know how painfully, all-encompassing it can be so I’m trying to be sensitive.

    She told me when we first met that she has already been talked to about being too personal at work. I’ve started being a little more standoff-ish, turning down invitations for coffee and lunch and told her “I can’t talk now, I’m busy.” Sometimes that works but sometimes she just keeps going and I have to repeat myself over and over. There are other little things that she does that I don’t think would be annoying if someone else did them but because it is her, they are so irritating.

    What do I do? I am still working on building relationships and I don’t want everyone to think we are a package deal (I know for a fact that she is driving everyone around us crazy). I’m thinking of talking to her next week and explaining that I need to build relationships on my team and I can only go to lunch and coffee with her a couple times a week and that I need to focus more at work. It’s hard because she sees how close our team is and the people I’m going to lunch with sit in our same bay. Her team is global and she doesn’t have anyone else in our office so I think she is lonely.

    Anybody else dealt with this and had a conversation like this that was well-received? Should I just keep going with what I’m doing and hope it will peter out without having a discussion?

    1. Retail Lifer*

      Jeez…did you hire the person that just quit here? Because she sounds exactly the same (minus the divorce, but it’s been a few weeks since she left so who knows?). She’d been out of work for a while and cooped up in the house for too long before starting here and I think she had desperately missed having conversations with another adult.

      She originally drove my co-worker crazy because she sat right next to her and was the only person close enough for her to regularly talk to. Co-worker eventually engaged her in conversation for a few minutes, feigning total interest and asking questions, but then let her know she had to get back to work and had to really concentrate. That actually did work. She also accepted the occasional invite to go to lunch together but she usually found a reason to decline.

    2. MsM*

      It’s not going to peter out. She’s not socially aware enough to realize that you’re trying to pull back, and even if she does pick up on it, she’ll probably cling harder. You’re just going to have to tell her that you understand she’s having a rough time and are sympathetic, but you can’t offer her more than a cordial working relationship, and you need her to respect that and give you some space.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Even getting coffee and lunch with her a couple of times a week sounds like a lot to me if you’re trying to have a distance (both with her and in terms of others’ perception).

    4. Windchime*

      It won’t peter out. People like this don’t understand hints or gentle remarks.

      We have a guy that joined our team 6 months ago. He latched onto me right away; standing too close, always wanting to tell me funny stories (that weren’t funny at all), offering to buy me lunch, etc. He really started giving me the creeps so I stopped being welcoming and friendly and started being cool to him. That just upped the ante; he told a friend that he was planning to bring me a gift with a note, telling me he just wants to be my friend.

      Finally our manager had to speak with him and tell him to back off. He still tries to strike up (overly) friendly conversations with him. I respond with the least level of polite civility that is acceptable. Anything more, and he will glom onto me again.

      1. Jean*

        People are socially skilled or unskilled for a gazillion different reasons such as being on the autism spectrum or having Tourette’s syndrome, social anxiety, mild or major emotional disabilities or mental illness, etc etc etc. (Side comment: the complexity and variability of the human brain and its social/emotional wiring are amazing.) But yes, it can be very difficult for to communicate or coexist with someone when you and he/she have wildly different abilities to interpret or transmit nonverbal social messages. Sometimes “different” means “annoying” not “interesting.” On some days you just want to accomplish X task without having to expend all kinds of energy and good will to communicate successfully across one of these gaps.

        I’m not trying to give you a guilt trip! I happen to be the mom of someone with Asperger’s and ADHD, but long before our child’s birth I was fascinated by other majority/minority interactions across differences of cultural fluency; socio-economic origins; sexual orientation; political or religious affiliations; national or ethnic origins; mental health or illness; physical, emotional, or cognitive abilities or disabilities, etc, etc. That doesn’t mean that I don’t have times of Just Wanting to Do XYZ without a long song and dance about whatever whatever!

  51. Emmie*

    Do you ask your employees where they are headed to on vacation? I’m on the fence about this. I would *never* ask as a condition to approve the pto, or expect the to be available during the time off. One of my colleagues was recently very upset that his boss didn’t ask b/c it made him feel like his boss didn’t care. I never minded being asked, but don’t want to pry into my employees personal lives or make them feel obligated to disclose personal plans. I’ve settled for saying (much later, close to the time off) “I hope you have something fun planned” and leaving it for the employee to volunteer if they are so inclined. What do you do? What would be appropriate coming from your manager?

    1. Kara Ayako*

      I think there’s a difference between prying and being friendly. I think asking someone where they’re going on vacation is about the same as asking someone if they have any fun weekend plans. It’s normal chitchat. Now, if you ask and they tell you where they’re going and you start asking for details and itineraries and how much things cost and if they’re going to propose to their girlfriend while there…yeah, that would be prying.

      While I wouldn’t be offended if my boss didn’t ask me where I was going on vacation, I would feel a little like my boss didn’t care about me as a person if he never asked me any personal questions (and I say this as a pretty private person!).

      1. Emmie*

        You bring up a good comment. What kind of private questions are okay? Which ones, in your opinion, are off limits? I’m a pretty private person too, but I’ve personally loved managers that have shown an interest in my personal life.

        1. YesThis*

          For me, I like when my boss asks me about things I’ve brought up myself. Example: The other day, I had to request PTO because of a leak in my apartment. When I returned to work, I was a little disappointed that my boss never asked me if everything was okay with the leak. Questions like that make me feel like my boss cares about me as a person, not just as a cog in the machine.

        2. Kara Ayako*

          I think questions like the below are totally fine:
          “How’s your day going?”
          “Doing anything fun this weekend?”
          After a vacation request: “Going anywhere warm?”

          And then follow their cues. If they reply with short or dismissive answers or appear uncomfortable, leave it at that. If they want to chat, get to know them.

    2. LizB*

      I think your script is great! Low-pressure, maintains workplace boundaries — I would have no problem hearing it from my boss. I wouldn’t want to be asked where I was going while the approval was still pending, in the midst of a stressful work-related conversation (e.g. “The client needs ANOTHER round of changes, so we’re all going to be pulling overtime. Say, Liz, where are you headed on your trip next weekend again?”), or in a way that made it sound like a dig at my work ethic (“Gosh, this event is turning out to be a real bear to plan. Lucky for you you’re off next week — what beach are you going to be relaxing on while we’re all slaving away?”). I don’t think your script does any of those things.

    3. OriginalYup*

      Your colleague sounds a bit oversensitive on that point.

      I don’t mind at all if bosses say, “Sure, request approved. Anything fun planned?” because it’s clear the one doesn’t affect the other and they’re just being friendly, and it’s easy enough to say “Nah, just stuff” and let it drop. But I’d be weirded out if the phrasing was “where you are going?” or “what are you doing?” because it just sounds intrusive. I can’t imagine being offended by them *not* asking unless it was also in a context where they yelled “FINE, take your stupid vacation days.” and stomped off or something.

      1. Christian Troy*

        Yeah I think if you leave it opened ended with, “Going anywhere good?”, people can opt to share more if they want.

      2. Emmie*

        I’m naturally pretty nosy too. :) What kinds of questions do you think are good relationship builders with employees without being too personal? (Thanks, btw, for your feedback!)

        1. OriginalYup*

          “How’s everything with you?”
          “Any fun plans for the weekend?”
          “Going on any fun vacations this summer?”

          I prefer to ask broad questions and see it where leads. I also find it easy to talk to bosses when they share stuff about themselves too — “I’m so excited to see the new XYZ movie, I love action films,” or “I’m going to ABC place on vacation for the first time ever” or “I can’t wait to go base jumping/sit quietly and read/practice tuba playing this weekend.”

      3. bridget*

        My boss sometimes appends “anything fun planned” with “or just relaxing?” to make it clear that taking PTO to veg would also be fine.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      I love to know what they’re doing, but I’m nosy. And travel is my favorite thing ever so I want to know if they’re going somewhere fun. I ask something similar – “oooh going anywhere fun?” but if they just say no I’m not going to pry.

      1. Emmie*

        Do you have any common relationship building questions you use with your employees? I try things like “how’s kid #1’s move going?” and stuff like that. But, I love hearing what others do, so I can change things up a bit. (PS… I have the nosy bug, so I try to reign that in.)

        1. AVP*

          I am totally nosy so I try to stick with topics that the employee has already brought up on their own volition.

        2. Katie the Fed*

          I don’t go any further than “anything fun planned for the weekend?” Some people just do not want to reveal anything, and that’s totally cool. Others friend me on facebook.

    5. MaryMary*

      Our PTO request application actually makes you input a reason when you request time off. I think it’s dumb. I usually put “vacation” or “personal,” although there’s enough space you could put “Hawaii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” or “Vegas, baby!” or something more descriptive. I did include a frowny face when I took time off to get my wisdom teeth out.

    6. Sparrow*

      I think what you are doing is fine. I would not be offended if my manager didn’t ask me where I’m going. We send out meetings in Outlook to our boss and co-workers so everyone is aware of when we’re out of the office. I usually just leave the Location field blank.

      I actually feel weird just outright announcing where I’m going on vacation, but I’m okay talking about if someone asks. I guess it feels like I’m bragging? For example, we’re taking a trip to Greece in a couple of weeks but in my vacation notification I just noted that I would be out of the country and wouldn’t have access to email and voice mail. The majority of the time I’m just at home so I’ll list my phone number for any urgent issues.

  52. Scorpio*

    I started a sales rep position this past January after dismissed from marketing manager job last November. I was already in talks with my present employer when I was let go – someone from my new job called my old employer for verification so I was caught. My first paystub is dated Jan 1 of this year. But by early December of last year I was already “on the streets” and on social media hyping my new company and products.
    It really did behoove me to start early, unfortunately this gig has some truly bad kinks. I’m quietly updating my resume and looking at new job leads. Can I list my new role on my resume with a start date of December, even though I wasn’t paid on the books for those early marketing endeavors?

    1. Emmie*

      Use the official start date that would be used for employment verification purposes. If a potential employer would get a January start date, use that. You could always talk about how you prepared for the sales job if it came up in the interview. I wonder if you should even put this on your resume since you’ve only been there for five months. I’m not sure you’ve made notable accomplishments that would counter your short tenure at the company. I would, however, list the company on an application which presumably is supposed to capture your employment history, and I wouldn’t want to mislead a potential employer.

    2. Graciosa*

      No.

      There are a lot of reasons why you can’t do this, but the one you’ll care about is that you need to make sure whatever you put down will be verified in a background check. A December start date won’t be.

  53. yky*

    How much vacation do you guys use in the summer?

    At your company, what is the amount that gets frowned upon?

    I took 4 days off two weeks ago and plan to take 2 days off next week… I have the days; they always just make me feel so guilty.

    1. GOG11*

      I am planning to take 8ish days in row off. Our vacation time doesn’t roll over and I’m not just going to let it go for no good reason. When I told my boss my plans to take vacation, she asked me if I was going anywhere exciting. I wasn’t, but she was very positive and supportive about it. Unless you’ve opted to take your vacation at the busiest time of the year, I don’t see why they should view that negatively.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I usually take 10 days to 2 weeks straight in the summer, and then another 3 weeks the rest of the year in single days or a couple in a row. I get 5 weeks a year, which includes sick leave, and if I don’t take it, I lose it. But no one makes us feel guilty for taking our leave. I just make sure there’s no big Teapot Redesign Launch scheduled for that time.

    3. Graciosa*

      Are they trying to make you feel guilty, or is this something you’re doing to yourself?

      I have seen a lot of people working without vacation – or without using all their vacation – at both my current employer and my previous one (both Fortune 100 companies). I always took my vacation in full, and my bosses were almost universally supportive.

      I think most of the people who didn’t use their vacation did it to themselves. They were afraid of how it would be perceived, so they just avoided it in case it might be an issue. Or they bowed to peer pressure and macho posturing that turns work into some kind of endurance test. This is stupid.

      Now that I’m a manager, part of my focus is on making sure I model good behavior in taking time off. When I’m out, I’m not available except in extreme emergencies (and in the years I’ve been a manager, there’s never been one that interrupted my vacation). The biggest determiner of work-life balance is the boss’ attitude.

      I realize there are some jerks out there who really do object to employees using their vacation, but don’t ever assume your boss is one of them. Even if he or she is, fight it. Yes, you do want to take the vacation to which you are entitled. You’re looking forward to it, and the opportunity to recharge and return more productive than ever.

      But my default assumption is that you are not only allowed but expected to take the time off. That’s why it’s part of the benefit package.

      You have permission to feel guilty if you’re not providing enough notice or dropping the ball unexpectedly on a huge project (“I’ve decided to take vacation tomorrow and play WoW at home, so someone else will have to host the international customer convention in my place”) but that’s it.

      Take *all* your vacation.

      2. AdAgencyChick*

        “Now that I’m a manager, part of my focus is on making sure I model good behavior in taking time off. When I’m out, I’m not available except in extreme emergencies (and in the years I’ve been a manager, there’s never been one that interrupted my vacation). The biggest determiner of work-life balance is the boss’ attitude.”

        Yes, this. And I’m gonna take my full 30-day PTO allotment every year until someone above me in the food chain tells me directly it’s not okay. Screw peer pressure (which I haven’t felt much anyway)!

    4. Retail Lifer*

      Rarely in my life have I ever been able to use all of my vacation time (and at most jobs I’ve only had two weeks plus a couple of personal days). There’s always something “important” going on or wwe’re short-staffed or we’re helping out another store who’s short-staffed.

      I’ve got 6 vacation days in a row coming up and that’s a career-long record for me. The only reason I’m using up ALL of my vacation time this year is because we don’t get sick time and it’s been a sickly year for me.

    5. HigherEd Admin*

      I’ve got 5 consecutive days off, then a few long weekends (half days on Thursday, full day off on Friday). I have several coworkers who are gone for 2 or 3 weeks straight, but it’s higher education and things slow down significantly in the summer.

    6. Jennifer*

      I get about 3.5 weeks off all year. I take about a week or two off in December (we’re closed anyway for about a week, some years I add an extra week), and/or a week in mid-June and/or or a week in mid-September., and a few days or half days here or there otherwise. I try to time my time out of the office to be when we have the least going on. I also have a volunteer job and if I’m out I have to make up hours for it, which is a pain in the ass, so I try to avoid missing time when they’re open. Things run quarterly here, so I basically try to take vacation only during the ends of seasons. It kind of sucks because my “busy season” is from July-November and if I take vacation during say, September, I feel bad and it means a lot less work gets done because my coworkers are not so great at that particular project. Plus there’s a stupid irritating process I have to be in the office for that also runs at the end of seasons, so that limits my two week block down to about one most of the time.

      It’s not frowned upon unless more than two people are taking off at the same time, or unless there’s a specific time you are required to be there, but I have been trying to not take the same time periods off for more than 2 years in a row–like this year I worked right up until Dec. 23 so nobody can say I always hog December off, and this year I’ll probably skip taking September off, and next year I’ll need to not take June off. I think people taking regular times off at the same time every single year might “red flag” a bit and then they’d start telling me that other people with more seniority should get that time sometime.

    7. BenAdminGeek*

      At OldJob I had almost 4 weeks, with a rolling extra week due to my first year on the job. I started out losing lots of days because I felt guilty, and then realized a day here or there doesn’t matter. Take the time, use it. I used a mix of 3-day weekends and then one solid vacation to truly unwind, but it’s what makes you relax that works.

      As a manager, it’s not the length of the vacation that is problematic. It’s the time I have to plan for it. 1 day off with 24-hour notification is worse than 2 weeks with a long lead time to plan and get coverage for anything that might come up.

      1. LCL*

        Yup, it’s the short notice vacations that will kill your schedule, and everybody’s morale. Because when your workgroup restricts how many people can be on leave at once, you should be treating all requests as equally important.
        We did have a guy last year who used the nuclear option to get the last half of summer off including labor day- phony FMLA. I knew it was bullshit because he told me so.

        Learn your office norms, then work within those norms to use as much vacation as you want.

    8. Sparrow*

      The most amount of vacation I took was when I was gone for two weeks (10 working days) to visit relatives in India. We don’t usually go on a lot of vacations, so it’s usually just a few days at a time.

      A lot of my co-workers are also from India and it’s not unusual for them to be gone for around 3 weeks at a time. Luckily, my workplace is pretty accomodating for people that need to be gone for longer periods like this.

    9. Gene*

      I usually take a week or two off at some point in the summer, but also lots of 3-day weekends. I need to take some because I’m getting close to the maximum accrual allowed (I’m currently at ~340 hours on the books and can accumulate up to 384).

      The most I’ve taken at one time was 5 weeks for a trip to Australia.

    10. Treena Kravm*

      I don’t have any restrictions, but my husband’s company gives him 7 week/year and they really, really don’t like you taking 2+ weeks off. We got 3 weeks for our wedding/honeymoon, and we’re getting 2 weeks for moving/vacation that can’t be moved, but other than that, 1 week at a time is the norm. But we travel pretty frequently, so it’s usually a 2-4 week-long vacations, and then the rest of the days are spread out over long weekends, shorter trips, or holidays (he doesn’t get any holidays, so he has to take a day for Christmas, thanksgiving etc.

  54. Tiffany*

    So after months of applying for post-graduation jobs, I finally got one (ironically, it was one that I didn’t even apply for. Networking ftw).

    It’s at a tech startup and is very much a new position (something they’ve been thinking about adding due to company growth but hadn’t really built up an exact job description for it or actively searched for someone. Me getting it kind of happened very organically). We’re trying to figure out a good job title for what I’m doing (read: they asked me to figure something out). Now, job titles don’t mean a super lot to me personally…but I’d like to have something I can put on LinkedIn, business cards, etc. that is at least somewhat accurate. Problem is, I’m doing a lot of different things. Our programs are in the education space..specifically pre-k education and k-3. My major projects right now are:
    1. transitioning from using a spreadsheet to track sale opportunities and ongoing projects into a web-based CRM software application. Once I’ve finished the transition, I’ll largely be managing that software, but won’t actually be working with clients. I’m very much on the support side of the company.
    2. Bookkeeping (because I know QuickBooks and others do not)

    Other projects/tasks include (or will include) sales/marketing strategies, data reporting, community research (figuring out which communities are doing work in our space and would benefit from the program), general research that can help position us as experts/leaders in our field, etc.

    So I’m doing a little bit of a lot of things…does anyone have any ideas of a job title that makes sense? I’m guessing ‘wearer of many hats’ doesn’t work, lol. :)

    1. Alex*

      We have a similar position at my company and their title is National Sales Project Manager. Maybe Operational Project Manager would apply more to you. Or just Project Manager. Or think about what you’d be interested in doing in the future – if you want to pursue a career as with that CRM, you could add that to you title, ex. Salesforce Project Manager. Or if you want to veer more towards a career in finance and bookkeeping, create a title more in line with that.

      I’d say Project Manager of some sort would work well.

      1. Steve G*

        Project Managers usually have more experience though, and are usually managing the $$$$ surrounding the projects they are working on, not just the data/research.

        I would say “Operations Coordinator” or “Operations Specialist” or if you are dealing with more sales/customer analysis, then Sales Operations Specialist or Sales Operation Analyst

        1. Tiffany*

          Operations coordinator or specialist sounds pretty good I think. Something I had thought of after I wrote this was ‘Business Support Specialist’…but I’m not sure if I like that or not. Operations kind of encompasses a lot of areas, so that probably makes more sense. Thanks!

    4. voluptuousfire*

      Yep. Operations Specialist sounds like it’s a good fit.

      Or how about “She Who Runs Everything” instead? :)

  55. HigherEd Admin*

    Another question: This one is about following up.

    Last week, I posted that I got called by a recruiter at a Big Company who immediately launched into a phone screen, and then told me she would have one of her coordinators email me to set up an interview for the following week.

    Well, that week has come and gone and I never heard anything. I don’t have anyone’s email, nor the recruiter’s name. Just the phone number that she used to call me, which I believe is a direct line.

    Do I call her to follow up, or file it away under “it wasn’t meant to be”?

    1. A Nommy Mouse*

      You may have slipped through the cracks. If you have her number, give her a call, and leave a message if she doesn’t answer.

    2. fposte*

      I’ll be interested to hear what people who work more with recruiters say. My inclination is to give one call, which will probably end up leaving a voice mail anyway, and then let it go. Just a “Hey, just wanted to check in–I haven’t heard from your coordinator about an interview. It may just be you all decided it wasn’t a fit after all, but I wanted to touch base just in case.”

      1. HigherEd Admin*

        Thanks, both! I called and left a message. I’m unconvinced anything will come of it, but at least it won’t be because I didn’t follow up :)

    3. Future Analyst*

      Follow up with a call, asking if she needs any additional information from you. If she’s simply forgotten about you, the reminder won’t hurt, and if she’s not interested, she doesn’t have to respond or move anything along.

      1. HigherEd Admin*

        I did. I am very particular about all my inboxes having zero unread messages. (I don’t read the spam, I just look at it and delete it!)

    5. HigherEd Admin*

      UPDATE: Thank goodness I called! Apparently they’ve been trying to get in touch with me all week (though, how hard could they have tried? Even if they had sent an email to the wrong address, they never called me to follow up).

      Interview scheduled for Monday — send good vibes!

      1. Steve G*

        Wow! I was thinking that the recruiter just used that as a polite way to end the conversation, and I also love the “we’ve been trying sooooo hard to reach you:-))”

  56. A Nommy Mouse*

    My co-worker’s been getting on my nerves. For months she’s been condescending to me, micromanaging me, talking to me like I’m a child, and insisting she thinks I’m great at my job and then turning around and doing some of my job because she “just felt it would be better” if she did it. To make it worse, she’s also a bit of an airhead – very forgetful, and has trouble with some of the technology we use.

    I’ve raised these comments with my boss before, but it’s gotten worse.

    Over the past couple of weeks she’s occasionally asked me to do little admin/clerical stuff for her, and I did it without question. I figured it would be rude to say “why can’t you do it yourself?” even when I’m genuinely curious why a simple task that really only takes a minute is being delegated to me, but whatever, she gets busy sometimes. I’m young and I know better than to act like I’m somehow above occasional admin duties.

    But yesterday took the cake. She asked me to schedule some interviews for a job we’re trying to fill. I accepted, but said I’d never done it before and may need some help to get started. I wondered why she wasn’t asking the coordinator, who usually schedules the interviews, but I didn’t think it was wise to ask. It was daunting, but I took a deep breath and went through it one step at a time. But I was short on time, which put me on edge, so when she asked why I scheduled someone for Wednesday and not today I got really flustered and hurriedly explained why I thought it was risky to try to schedule her for the very next day, and that I had no way of knowing she was a top candidate that needed to be interviewed right away – I was an anxious mess.

    I did get it all done, and apologized to my boss for my unprofessional behavior, and she seemed very interested in why my coworker had asked me to schedule the interviews and not the coordinator who usually does it. It started to dawn on me then, and continued to dawn on me on the way home, just how often she’s treated me like her assistant, asking me to do things that weren’t part of my job because she couldn’t do them on her own. My role isn’t administrative – it’s supportive in nature, but it’s a specialized, strategic role on the team. Again, I don’t mind helping others out occasionally, but it’s starting to seem like she’s been taking advantage of that.

    Today, when she came in, she thanked me for my help and acknowledged she should have asked the coordinator to do it rather than me, but she was sooooo busy it didn’t even occur to her to ask him. All she could think was “I need help, who’s helped me out before?” and I came to mind. So because I’ve helped her before, I’m now her go-to person every time she needs an extra hand with something, and I’m not sure I like that, but I’m not sure I can say “no” to her either.

    I’m not one for an ultra-bureaucratic system where people only do their assigned duties and refuse to do anything else, I get that the lines get blurred sometimes, but I do want there to be some boundaries.

    1. fposte*

      Yeah, this all sounds weird. When you say you’ve raised it with your boss, what do you mean–were you talking generally, or have you specifically asked if you can say no to these? If you didn’t explicitly ask about the latter, I’d do so.

      And I think pushing back on these might be a nice little inroad into what seems to be a dominance play anyway. Feel free also to be blandly indifferent to the condescension and micromanagement–that helps starve the beast.

      1. A Nommy Mouse*

        I guess I’ve never asked if I could say “no,” because I’m worried about what sort of attitude that might convey. I have, on occasion, mentioned that she’d given me a task that was next to impossible and I needed some help clarifying her expectations.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, definitely straight out ask to say no! (Or at least ask if that would be okay.) If I were your boss I might think, from the way you phrased that, that you *wanted* to do tasks for her.

          And whether you realize it or not, you’ve prioritized not saying no to your co-worker over doing your work well. Time to shift the priorities back to your work.

    2. OriginalYup*

      She sounds annoying. But it sounds like you haven’t actually pointed out to her directly when her requests are weird or somebody’s else job or just not convenient for you. It’s not bureaucratic to say, “Doesn’t Susan usually schedule the interviews? I’m happy to do it if she’s not available and it’s urgent, I just don’t want to mess up her system.” If she’s generally forgetful, you’re doing her a favor by getting work into the right streams instead of taking it on yourself.

      But the part where she selectively does your job is total B.S. Next time she pulls that, calmly say, “I understand you were trying to help, but it’s explicitly my job to handle X and I need you to respect that. Next time you see X waiting to be done, I need you to not do it yourself — I’ve got it handled. Thanks for understanding,” and carry on like it’s resolved. Rinse and repeat until it’s time to escalate it to your boss with a request to intervene.

      1. Steve G*

        She doesn’t sound that annoying.

        Letter writer, from the limited info we have here, it doesn’t seem extremely out of place that she is delegating work to you. Coordinating interviews (or any type of events/meetings) is a very entry level office task, and you admit here that you found it daunting. You blame the woman for not telling you who the preferred candidates are, but on the other hand, you didn’t ask which she’d prefer to see first either. Your letter sends mixed messages, on the one hand you say you have a “strategic” role (which usually describes complicated/mid-level roles), but then you find scheduling interviews difficult. That is going to send mixed messages to your coworkers about what your actual role and level are….so I wouldn’t go at this with a “xyz coworker is inappropriately treating me like an assistant” slant

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Wait, no! She found the interview scheduling difficult because she’d never done it before and was given no context or info. I wouldn’t read into that at all! She’s not an admin; it’s not surprising that she didn’t come out of the gate knowing exactly how to do this admin-ish task without more context.

    3. MsM*

      Sure, you can say “no,” as long as you’re polite about it (at least at first). “Sorry, Wakeen, I have [actual duties] to do. Try [administrative person] if you need help?” And if she offers to do your work instead: “No, it’s my responsibility, and I’ve got it under control. Besides, it sounds like you’ve got your hands full with your own project.”

      Or go back to your boss and say “Our conversation yesterday’s made me realize Wakeen seems to have some confusion about what my role in the department actually is. [Insert examples as needed.] I want to be helpful, but I feel like she’s starting to take advantage of that. Do you have any suggestions for how I can address this with her before it becomes a more serious problem?”

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      Talk to your boss!

      Not from a place of “Jane always wants me to do her work for her, make her stop!” but rather, “I want to get clarity on what my priorities should be — I’ve been getting requests from Jane and I need to know where to put them in the queue with my XYZ assignments, or whether they should even be in my queue at all.”

      Then it’s about how to use your time most effectively for the company (and if the answer is “by acting as Jane’s assistant,” at least you’ll know that and be able to push other work off your plate to accommodate that) and not a complaint about a coworker.

      1. Mz. Puppie*

        Jumping into the “Talk to your boss” pile. Tell your boss that you have come to the realization that, in your zeal to be helpful, you have now boxed yourself into a corner where you are functioning as co-worker’s assistant, and as a result your daily priorities might now be out of sync with your boss’ vision. Ask your boss to help you get a handle on what is 100% yours, what is 100% NOT yours, and what is a good idea to help out with on an occasional basis. Also ask for help in how to frame your pushback so that you’re not creating political strife when you start saying no. But you *do* need to start saying no — learning how to do that appropriately is a fundamental building block of building a successful, professional career.

        Good luck!!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This person is very manipulative. She is telling you that you do a great job then taking your work and correcting it. Is she supposed to be doing that? Find out from the boss and if no, nip this one.

      I seriously question why this woman always needs help. You seem to be on top of your own work. Does she have an incredible work load?

      Yeah, this sounds a bit like a dominance thing going on. I know this is not easy to deal with but stick to what the boss wants you to do. For example: When she asks you to do something like scheduling the interviews you can say, “I have never done that before, I have to check and see if Boss wants me to do this or work on Other Thing.”

      It’s not wrong to say no, because the company expects you to be handing x work. If you are busy doing y work, then you are of less value to the company because x is not getting done. You can ask your boss how much of her work you should take on= this is like a boundaries question. Maybe the boss will have clear limits of how much time/effort she wants you to put in on your coworker’s stuff.

      If they gave you a job description when you started go back and review that, just for your own clarification and to help you stay on track.

  57. INTP*

    How about a Friday game inspired by the Princess Peach post?

    Write a short (or long if you want) AAM query from the perspective of a character in a TV series, book, movie, etc. Then we will a) guess who it is and/or b) respond with advice for them.

    2. Cath in Canada*

      Ooh, fun!

      “Dear Alison,

      My colleague and I can never see eye to eye! We have to work together very closely, but we have completely different approaches to solving problems. I like following processes and proceeding logically through problems, but he just takes these wild leaps and guesses, and then makes me look stupid and slow when it turns out he’s right. I had to move into the office that was originally just his, and he hasn’t made any space for me. Also he’s a total workaholic and is always calling me when we’re not at work.”

          1. GOG11*

            Well, the wild leaps and guesses didn’t quite fit, but to most people, it’s all pretty wild and ridiculous, even if there is logic behind it. Hmmmm…

    3. Jennifer*

      Dear Alison: We have a staff member who “prefers not to” do pretty much ANYTHING at the office. How can I get him fired?

    4. Bekx*

      Dear Alison,

      I’m a young manager who was just promoted to the position. We’re currently undergoing a merge with another office, and things are incredibly tense. I contracted with the second office for a bit, and met my girlfriend there, so I’m on okay-ish terms with people from the second office. My office, however, does not like any of these people, and does not want welcome them into our office. I’m trying to get my staff to get along with the new members, but I’m beginning to feel as if I’ll be stabbed in the back soon! I feel completely unprepared for this role, and I’m just trying to make sure we can all survive. Everyone keeps telling me that I’m not prepared for this role, and I really feel like I know nothing.

    5. INTP*

      Dear Alison,

      I suspect that a consultant frequently used by my employer is a serial killer. However, others who have had these suspicions before have been framed for murders or been killed, including some of my employees. How should I proceed? I’m concerned HR may not maintain confidentiality.

      At the least, how can I decline his dinner party invitations without arousing suspicions?

      1. Bekx*

        My first thought was LaGuerta talking about Dexter but….he doesn’t invite people to dinner

    6. INTP*

      Dear Alison,

      I work for a healthcare organization. My boss is often convinced that our patients are lying to us, so he requires my coworkers and me to break into their homes and snoop around. Is this legal?

          1. Bekx*

            Finally started watching Season 8 on Netflix. It was the only season I hadn’t watched!

    7. INTP*

      Dear Alison,

      I work in local government for a small town. I am a real go-getter and want to do everything I can for our town. However, my boss intentionally does as little as he can, sabotages efforts, and runs things inefficiently because as a Libertarian, he believes our government office should not exist. How can I motivate him?

        1. GOG11*

          +1 Advice would be to take away all the eggs, bacon, steak and hard, opaque liquor in the world and promise to return it when he does some work. Oh, and lots of blonde hair dye for the ladies.

    8. MaryMary*

      Dear Alison,

      My manager is very well regarded in our field and has been something of a mentor to me. However, he rarely gives me any positive feedback. He doesn’t seem to appreciate any of the hard work I do. Once, when I tried to have a conversation with him about getting more recognition, he shouted “that’s what the money is for!” at me. Later, when I approached him about a raise, he literally threw money in my face. I’ve started looking for another job, but I’m having second thoughts about leaving. I’ve been at the same organization my entire career, and they gave me a chance to grow into my current role when a lot of other places wouldn’t have. And my boss has been an incredible mentor in a lot of ways? Should I stay?

    9. Turanga Leela*

      I’m a visiting consultant at a small affiliate office. First, the good: The area is beautiful, I’m getting along well with the director there, and the local diner makes a damn fine cup of coffee. However, there is some strange stuff going on. I’m having super-intense dreams, and a teenage girl seems to be in love with me. I’m starting to feel like I’m in danger. Should I go back to the main office now, or should I stay in this town and maybe take up chess?

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Agent Cooper!

        My advice is to go back to the main office ASAP. And remember, the owls are not what they seem.

        We finally managed to get our hands on the movie a few weeks ago (eBay). It was actually pretty good, but our expectations were low after hearing it was terrible…

        I hope the reboot goes ahead!

    10. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      Dear Allison,

      I work in partnership with this really brilliant guy. When we first got together, basically, he was the “makes the product” guy, and I was the “sells the product” guy. But it turns out his product was so pure that it was pretty much beyond my ability to sell it, so he started seeking out different distribution channels. In the meantime, I got pretty good at learning to make the product, so we kept working together on it, and I really enjoyed the mentoring part of our relationship, but then my partner got us into bed with some pretty bad distributors, and things went really bad, and the relationship with the distributor ended pretty explosively. So now we have the materials to make our product, but no one to distribute.

      Me? I want to cash out. We could sell the materials to another producer and make a killing, and we’d never have to work a day in our lives again, but my partner’s gotten kind of obsessed with having a “legacy,” and he wants to stay in the business. How do I convince him to let me cash out? It’s been a really rough couple of years for me, and I just want to get on with my life at this point.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        In the words of your boss: Run. If you must help the DEA, make sure that you’re going through official channels, not some rogue investigation. And for the love of puppies, avoid neo-Nazis.

      2. Snoskred*

        He’s in the EMPIRE business. Don’t you understand?

        PS Don’t open the door, he is the one who knocks!

        PPS I have a rewatch breaking bad blog on wordpress, and I am writing posts for 505 and 506 today.. :)

    12. Katie the Fed*

      Dear Alison,

      I’ve been running a lucrative side business of importing luxury goods for a demanding market. It’s a high risk enterprise, but very emotionally and financially rewarding. It also gives me an opportunity to meet interesting people and gain influential positions in other areas of my life.

      Unfortunately, a competitor recently indicated she wanted to start operating using the logistics networks I established. What’s worse, her luxury products are even higher demand and higher risk. She’s been coercing me into helping her with her business, which not only undercuts my own but offends my morals. What should I do?

    13. EduNerd*

      This game rocks.

      Dear Alison,
      I have a…shall we say, complicated situation. At my eponymous business, I’m concerned about the behavior of my two employees. They don’t always tell me when they leave the office to work with our (high-profile and sometimes shady) clients, they do lots of tech work that may or may not be illegal, and they presumably don’t sleep (then again, neither do I). But what really worries me is that I’m wondering if they are having an emotional or physical affair that could be problematic for the business. I don’t have any proof (yet). What should be my next step(s)? Typically I’d just handle it by whatever means were most direct/available, but a) I have no proof and b) I saved these employees from lives of jail/homelessness/crime, so I feel like I can’t cut them loose entirely.

  58. De Minimis*

    I had a phone interview Monday with a healthcare org. I’ve always wanted to work there and applied numerous times in the past, but never got anywhere due to my lack of experience at the time. This went really well and I’m keeping my fingers crossed I might hear from them in a week or so about a final interview.

    It’s a brand new position and that’s worked well for me in the past [this job was like that as well.] I think it would be a big improvement over what I’m doing now in that I’d be part of a team of finance professionals and there would be other people who could help me out when I needed it [and vice versa.] It also seems more dealing with the type of things I like to do [more analysis and working with data] and less of the mundane stuff. It’s a bigger organization too and that would be more interesting.

    Lots of chaos at my current job…we will be losing our other facility soon [it will no longer be federal and will be taken over by another government entity, that’s all I can really say without giving TMI] and there’s a lot of stuff involved with that. Also we keep having days where everyone in charge are all off at the same time, either on leave or at the same meetings and that’s been a lot to deal with.

    My last day is in a week! I am going what I can as far as training, but at this point it seems like the best thing I can do is create documentation, the one on one sessions haven’t been that successful since it amounts to them basically watching me work with spreadsheets/databases, and they have no way to even access a lot of stuff right now.

  59. NoPantsFridays*

    So I drink about 2 gallons of water per day, about 1.5 of which I consume at work. I need a lot of water and since I’ve started exercising again about 2 months ago (yay!), the requirement has only increased. Of course, I pee about 8 times per day, about 5-6 of which usually occur at work.

    My water consumption is anomalously high among my coworkers. They generally drink 1-2 500mL bottles per day, even though we have a water filtration machine hooked up to the municipal supply in our break room (it’s awesome). No one, including my manager, has said anything to me about either my water consumption or my urination, and my work place is not one of those horrid places that obsesses over bathroom activities. But still, I suspect that my water consumption strikes others as very odd, even though I’m actually drinking the correct amount of water and they are nowhere near hydrated at 1L/day.

    Any tips on how to manage my hydration (and thus urination) requirements in the workplace in a manner that is not socially unacceptable?

    1. Sarah Nicole*

      No tips other than to do what you’re already doing. Drink the water you need and pee when you need to! I have the same issue – I drink a ton of water and anything I drink goes right through me (weak bladder? Idk). I have noticed an odd look on occasion from a coworker, but oh well. I’m going to the bathroom. It’s no one else’s business unless I’m in there for an egregious amount of time. There is no socially acceptable way to manage your bathroom needs, lol.

    2. fposte*

      I would vote for “worry less about it.” You drink what you want, they drink what they want, and lead by example by not counting their water intake either.

      (BTW, there is no “correct” amount of water, and people can be perfectly well hydrated at 1 liter per day. It sounds like you’re thinking about the massively debunked “x cups of water per day” myth.)

      1. NoPantsFridays*

        Well they even almost “brag” (that’s not the right word) about how they can go without water, almost like it’s a toughness issue and I’m weak for needing water. My workplace also has a “weak for needing sleep” attitude where people compete with one another for who slept the fewest hours the previous night. The water bragging is an extension of that. They also make comments like “I don’t need THAT much water” so I asked them how much they drink. I’m not really observant enough to track other people’s water intake on my own. The myth goes both ways — I drink way more than the 6-8 cups a day I was taught to drink, I’m drinking more like 6-8 liters per day. I also stay at least a half hour extra per day (even if I have no work to do, which is stupid, but) to make up for time spent in the bathroom. But I think they still think something is wrong with me. Oh well, I can always find a new job if I get fired for drinking water lol.

        1. fposte*

          They sound like jerks, but it also sounds like this has become a bad conversational thing and that you need to stop participating in conversations about drinking water.

          (And remember coffee, tea, and sodas do actually count for total fluid, so the guys bragging about their limited fluid intake may well be drinking as much as you without realizing it.)

        2. HeyNonnyNonny*

          Your workplace sounds….odd.

          Next time they scoff at how much water you need, reply that you’re making up for it by using less air. See who’s first to claim they can get by with the least oxygen.

          2. NoPantsFridays*

            There are other oddities in addition to the sleep and water competing. People also compete on who can eat the most food and “get by” on the least food, as well as who has the longest commute, who can drink the most alcohol, etc. It’s very odd. So I’m going to try this oxygen thing, to give us one more funny thing to compete on. Thanks for the suggestion!

        3. OriginalYup*

          I don’t think I could muster up enough care to reply to such a dumb boast (re not needing “that much” water or sleep). Are they practicing for desert-based endurance competitions? I’d probably just shrug and carry on living my hydrated, sufficiently rested life.

        4. Anonsie*

          Do you ever mention it, or are they just noticing how often you’re drinking? I can see two scenarios: One where you’re mentioning it enough or it’s coming up enough that it’s grating on them, and one where they’re the type of busybodies that track everything their coworkers do and comment on it unsolicited.

          I admit the first thing I thought when reading your comments was about the last few people I’ve known who were super big water drinkers and managed to bring it up just often enough and with just enough of a weird attitude that I did find myself thinking holy crap you are not going to die if you don’t chug some water right now, mellow the eff out with that. Like, they would frequently mention how often they have to pee or say something about how they drink a lot of water every time they run to the bathroom, or make people wait on them while they filled up their massive jug before a meeting with the attitude that they need all that water and it doesn’t matter what the schedule is because they neeeeed it and we’re not respecting their health, or just generally bringing it up all the time with all the fever of an evangelic who’s found the hydrating light. Just generally they seemed really defensive about it out of nowhere (not like any of us ever said anything or cared at all) and that was the thing that was frustrating about them, not the actual water or bathroom breaks. So, if you find yourself initiating any conversations that sound like this, that may be the culprit, and I am tempted to suspect something like this may be your issue just going off the way you’re talking about it here.

          I wouldn’t think anything of it if I just happened to see someone drinking or refilling their water a lot, though, if they’re someone keeping an inventory then they have their own issues you can’t do anything about. I have totally worked with people like that, though, and I know just ignoring them is a tall order. I tend to stone face at them like I don’t even get that they’re being snarky, which seems to lower how often it happens.

          1. NoPantsFridays*

            I don’t mention it at all, actually. I wouldn’t even think of water intake as a “topic” if my coworkers didn’t make backhanded comments about how much water I’m drinking and about how they supposedly “can go without water.”

            1. Anonsie*

              Then they’re nosy little wads. I find stone-facing those people is pretty effective, like you don’t even know why they’re talking about it. “What? I’m just getting water.”

              “Well you drink a lot! I don’t need that much.”

              “Oh. Ok.”

    3. Helka*

      You just keep doing you. If someone has enough of a problem with it, they will talk to you, and if they don’t, it won’t be an issue. As long as you’re performing well and the bathroom breaks aren’t a disruption to someone else (ie having to pull a coworker to cover your desk every time) then there really shouldn’t be an issue.

      For what it’s worth, I’m similar; with a frigid office and a mild caffeine addiction, I’ll drink anywhere from 48-80oz of tea in a workday, with commensurate bathroom trips. It’s not a big deal.

    4. MsM*

      If no one’s said anything, I think you’re overthinking this. Frankly, I think it’s weird you’re monitoring how much your coworkers drink in a day, so I also think you’re overestimating how much they’re noticing.

      1. NoPantsFridays*

        I’m not monitoring them, they tell me stuff like “I don’t need THAT much water; I just buy a bottle or two from the vending machines downstairs and that’s enough for me.” Like I’m greedy and weak for needing water.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Do they really think you’re greedy and weak, or do they…just not need as much water as you do?

          1. NoPantsFridays*

            I don’t know; they see me refilling my water and make comments like the above. totally unprompted. I don’t know how much water they need, it’s just that they make these comments when I want to be left alone.

            1. fposte*

              Is it possible you’re just taking stupid workplace blather personally? This sounds like it could be the water equivalent of “Oh, that lunch smells good” and “Popcorn again?”

              1. NoPantsFridays*

                But it’s not the equivalent of that. It’s the equivalent of “Why are you eating so much food? A celery stick is enough for me!” Which, by the way, people say at my work place too. It’s not the equivalent of “Ooh, that smells good, what do you have there?” which is a totally normal lunch comment.

        2. bridget*

          I think you’re reading too much into their comments. Your water consumption is high enough that it is probably noticeable, and these seem like slightly obtuse ways of making small talk comparing their own water consumption. It’s similar to the thread earlier this week about how people often make small talk about what people are having for lunch. Maybe annoying to you, and perhaps insensitive, but unless their tone is quite snide, I very much doubt they are implying that you are greedy or weak.

      2. Kelly L.*

        Yup. Ignore them, and do you. I have OAB and I go to the restroom at specific intervals on purpose. The way I avoid calling attention to it is just by not announcing what I’m about to do. Nobody really notices if I just up and leave for two minutes every few hours; people bustle in and out of the office all the time for various reasons. They would notice if I shouted out “BRB GUYS I NEED TO PEEEEEE!” before each time. ;)

    5. matcha123*

      I might drink 1L of liquid in a day. Probably less than that. I go to the bathroom more times than I can count at work.
      I never knew that going to the bathroom a lot would be a problem? Shouldn’t your coworkers be paying attention to their work and not the frequency of your urination?

    7. nep*

      Do what you need to do for your health. Doesn’t sound like there’s a problem regarding your coworkers. (I certainly wouldn’t call what you’re currently doing ‘socially unacceptable’.)

    8. Not So NewReader*

      From what I have read peeing every 2-4 hours is normal/healthy.
      One article pointed out that nurses seem to have kidney problems because they never take the time to go to the bathroom.
      So if you have three breaks then you use the bathroom 2-3 additional time during the day. I don’t think that should be a problem. I think the only time it would get mentioned is if you work was falling behind. As in, “If you went to the bathroom less then maybe you would get more work done.”

      But honestly, wait until you have a complaint in front of you. If no one says anything, then assume all is well.

    9. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

      Have you always drank a lot, or this more recent? It’s entirely possible that you simply enjoy drinking a lot of water, but it’s also possible that you have some health issue that’s not being addressed. I don’t know if you’re feeling fine otherwise, but if you haven’t already, you might want to check with a doctor. You could be diabetic. Or there’s some other condition I’ve heard of but I can’t remember what it’s called. It’s something syndrome. People who have it get very dry eyes and a dry mouth and need a lot of water.

      I can understand where you’re coming from though. I go to bathroom a lot too. I’m diabetic myself and maintaining stable sugar levels is tough so the least I can do is try to stay hydrated. But then I peed often even before that happened. It can be frustrating at work because I’m a temp and sometimes I do reception jobs. In any other job you can just step away for a moment but at a reception desk I have to get someone to cover. It’s not like anyone minds, but it sucks cause I’m shy and I hate having to call someone and say I have to use the washroom. At some places, I only get a lunch break and I usually can’t go a full morning or afternoon without at least taking a bathroom break. This last place I went to was an exercise in bladder control though. I had 3 hours and 15 minutes in between lunch and my afternoon break and that was awful. I didn’t want to have to call for coverage so I could use the washroom when I was already getting a break and it would have meant having someone come from another floor. I had to be careful what I drank and I couldn’t even have soup for lunch.

      1. fposte*

        Me too. And I don’t know how many possibilities there are, but I’m guessing that Prioritizer would be a pretty popular result among AAM commenters.

          1. Vanishing Girl*

            Thanks for that link!

            Reading this, I suspect I’m a prioritizer/visualizer hybrid.

          2. fposte*

            Huh, I’d have thought I would be more a planner. Maybe I’m really category 5–“Grey area person who answers ‘Sometimes’ to most frequency questions.”

      2. Sandy*

        Me three. No surprise there. If it’s not a high enough priority, it gets saved to the bottom of the list for weeks, months, years…

        1. Sarah Nicole*

          OMG I thought I was an awful person for doing this. Yay, I’m not the only one who will leave something forever if no one wants it!

        1. INTP*

          Actually, I after reading the link I think I am a Visualizer and I tested as a prioritizer due to the fact that I’m implementing work habits to help me, well, prioritize.

      1. De Minimis*

        Same here.
        I do like making lists, and I sometimes get OCD about everything that could possibly go wrong.

      2. College Career Counselor*

        I got Arranger. Which surprises me, because I’m an “in the moment” project person.

        1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

          I am too! I think that there’s something in their explanation of liking to see how projects come together organically (as opposed to wanting to have everything planned out perfectly).

      1. nbrookstaylor*

        I am an admin who is a visualizer as well! And it is very true- weirdly my boss is most likely a planner and we get on very well even though you would think you would want the visualizer in the boss role and the planner in the admin.

        1. Diddly*

          It actually made me very happy – I’m quite territorial about my mess and now I have a ‘legitimate’ reason why – and I’m always doodling…

    5. the_scientist*

      I’m a planner, which is 1000% accurate for me! I like the “you are particular about what office supplies you use” question.

        1. AVP*

          If my nice pens or notebooks run out, I will leave work to go buy them rather than to try to cobble together a new set up.

    10. skyline*

      Planner! It correctly identified my love of label makers, file folders, and nice pens.

    11. Cath in Canada*

      Visualiser! Which justifies my habit of spending money to buy my own coloured pens and nice post-its and folders rather than the boring stuff they give us for free.

    15. So Very Anonymous*

      Arranger. Description is pretty on point, especially the love for aesthetically pleasing office supplies (I am seriously fussy about pens and notebooks), though I don’t really care about dictation tools.

    17. Felicia*

      I’m a planner! It seems to fit me well. I imagine they all have their strengths.

    19. Jean*

      Equal parts of Visualizer and Arranger. I feel so vindicated! I’m always highlighting my to-do lists (and then re-highlighting the remaining tasks in another color, until I give up and start a new list).

    22. FiveByFive*

      Huh.. anyone get two answers?? It told me I’m a “blend” of Prioritizer and Planner.

      Can’t put a label on me :)

  61. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

    So I finished university about six years ago and I’m not exactly proud of my job history since then. I got stuck in retail too long. Personal reasons made it hard to motivate myself to put much effort into job searching. My store eventually closed which was great news for me. It forced me to try harder to find a job and it still took a long time.

    I was pretty insecure about this. Sometimes if I spotted acquaintances in my store (including former friends), I looked away as if I hadn’t seen them because I didn’t want people to see I was still there. When I had been unemployed for a while, I hated bumping into people I used to work with because I didn’t feel like talking about the fact I wasn’t working and they would normally suggest this or that store is hiring.

    Last year I got on with a staffing agency and started temping. That was relieving because at least it’s something. Temp jobs are a great way to get experience, try different things, and get exposure to different work environments. It’s been going well so far. My recruiters are happy with me. They’ve gotten good feedback from employers and a few have specifically asked to have me back. Unfortunately it has basically been administrative work and a lot of reception jobs. That’s fine for temp jobs, but so far I haven’t done anything I’d want to keep doing. It’s still good to have the experience, but I’m a math major so admin work is probably going to leave me feeling pretty bored in the long run. My agency does permanent hires for all sorts of different types of jobs though, and I’ve discussed the kind of work I’m more interested in doing, so maybe something decent will come up eventually.

    Anyways…I recently went to a job where I bumped into a guy I had a huge crush on when I was in university. Crap. I didn’t know him that well. We had some classes together but I’m pretty shy and only talked to him a few times. I was originally at this place a couple of months ago at the reception desk for two days. Head office of a major corporation with over a thousand people in the building and somehow we crossed paths and I was shocked to see him. We were both waiting for an elevator and I stood back and looked at the ground hoping he wouldn’t see me. On top of my usual shyness, I was afraid to talk to him because I was ashamed of the fact I’m still a temp and I was there doing reception. (It might have been different if I had been there doing something besides reception.) I was only there for the day and I didn’t feel like having a short conversation, admitting I was only there to answer the phone, and then never seeing him again. I avoided making eye contact in the elevator, he left, and that was that.

    So, I just spent the past two weeks back at this place again, covering while the receptionist was on holidays. I saw him around a few more times but he didn’t see me. I was never in another situation where I could have talked to him. Now, I had the global address book open all the time so I could look people up when calls came in. Sometimes I was bored out of my mind waiting for the phone to ring and I had nothing better to do anyway than scroll through the thousands of names in it. So toward the end I decided to snoop a little and look him up. Well, as far as I can tell from the job title, it appears he’s found a good job and I’m kinda envious because it looks like the sort of thing I’d like to get into. He’s also a manager (which I have no interest in) and that made me feel worse about where I am. But I would have loved to have been able to talk to him and hear all about what he does because it sounds like something I’d find genuinely interesting. Unfortunately, that would have also meant explaining I’m not doing anything interesting myself. A part of me is glad I didn’t embarrass myself by trying to talk to him that day at the elevator and part of me regrets it.

    So what I’m wondering is, am I right to feel so insecure here? Can anyone really blame me for being unhappy with my lack of career success so far? Or am I being kind of unreasonable for thinking this way? Maybe I should just accept that this is where I’m at right now and I can’t change the past. Certainly I’m not the first person to struggle to find work and to go through long periods of un/underemployment, and I won’t be the last. Do other people who have been in similar situations get this insecure about it, or is it just me? Maybe people aren’t actually judging me as much as I think they are, but I can’t help feeling like they are. Thoughts, anyone?

    1. fposte*

      I think you’re being really hard on yourself. I certainly don’t feel that being a receptionist or a temp has anything to do with whether you can talk to somebody else, and I think you’re absolutely right on the “this is where I’m at right now and I can’t change the past” theory. I think getting insecure about it isn’t uncommon–work is a big part of most of our lives, after all–but I also don’t think it’s something you need to accept without questioning.

      (Not that I’m opposed to avoiding a public encounter with somebody you have no interest in talking to–I just think that if you want to talk to them, you shouldn’t let your job situation interfere with that.)

      1. RVA Cat*

        Six years ago, the economy was still in free fall. You can’t blame yourself for the fact that you graduated into the Great Recession.

      2. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        Thanks, that’s reassuring. I guess I’m allowed to be unhappy with my situation if I want, but you’re probably right that I’m being too hard on myself. Things might just fall into place later in life for me. By being hard on myself, I’m probably making it harder to get ahead in life too.

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      Hmmm. I think it’s easy to be envious of people when you yourself are so far away from where you think you should be.

      For example, my brother is in his mid 20’s. I’m almost 30, and an admin. My brother has a degree and a Master’s and is a super-duper engineer type. He gets paid (a fair bit) more than I am old. At times when I’ve generally felt like “OMIGOD” about life, that really sucks. But I wouldn’t be me, without the choices I’ve made and the things I’ve done. And much of the time, that’s ok with me. I wouldn’t, couldn’t do my brother’s job anyway. Much of how I feel is down to how I perceive my life to be. When I’ve been in crapper job situations, that certainly factors in to how I’m feeling in general.

      As to your situation, if you know this guy a little already, you could always ask him about how he got to where he did?

      1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        Yes, this. I’m also almost 30 and my younger brother is way ahead of me in life. I was the one that did well in school but that doesn’t guarantee success in life. He took after our dad and got into construction. He got an apprenticeship shortly after finishing high school. He was running jobs while still an apprentice. He’s good at his job. He makes good money. He’s married. They’ve got a house, a dog, and two vehicles. I live with my parents. I’ve been single for years (partly because I don’t have a life and don’t really meet people anyway, and partly because I’ve been so insecure that I didn’t like the idea of dating anyone anyway until I kinda got my life together). I don’t have my own car. I work part time temping. It’s just so hard not to compare myself to other people.

        And the job has come and gone, so it’s too late to talk to him unless I end up going back again. But that’s exactly what I would have liked to him about.

        1. Jill 2*

          Oh god, this is the story of my life. I was the one who was poised for “success” in terms of where I got into college. My brother also got into a good school, but our paths completely diverged. I hated college and didn’t take advantage of a single opportunity that my school afforded me (I regret this every single day). I thought I had to focus on grades at the expense of everything else and got in my head so much that depression and anxiety took over me.

          My brother? He managed to make great friends, have tons of fun, AND get very focused on work. I would argue it was precisely his social life (all very driven, motivated kids who also partied a ton) that drove him to where he is. Fast-forward to now, he graduated with an MBA from arguable the top business school in the country, makes boatloads of cash more than I do, and is on his way to having great career success.

          I still don’t know what I want to do with my life. I have fallen into a career, but don’t particularly like it. But I have almost a decade worth of experience and it’s too scary and hard to go into anything else. I can’t afford going back to school (even though I believe I would benefit from something like an MBA), but I mostly just don’t care. I just want a job.

          But it’s very hard to look back on my former self, who WAS driven and motivated and did well. I just went off the rails from college, and have never been able to very proud of myself since then.

          Oops, so sorry for the personal tangent! I sympathize, is all.

          1. I'm a Little Teapot*

            Story of my life too, except that my brother’s success ended spectacularly several years ago. :/

          2. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

            Actually, thank you for that personal tangent. It’s nice to know I’m not alone. I totally understand where you’re coming from. I was a little vague above, but depression and anxiety are exactly what I was referring to when I said, “Personal reasons made it hard to motivate myself to put much effort into job searching.” I worked my ass off in school but sometimes I struggled just to pass. I never had any balance in life. When I was in school I was kinda baffled at how some people managed to do their school work, have a job, get enough sleep and exercise, and still have a social life. I didn’t realize at the time I was kinda depressed. When one thing is out of whack it can throw a lot of other things off too. I spent too much time doing homework. Worked part time – sometimes more than I should have been. Never got enough sleep, so it got to a point where things just weren’t sinking in anymore. I didn’t have much of a social life. For awhile I had a boyfriend that was too needy and took up too much of my time, so I never had enough time to myself or for other friends. I never made new friends in university. I was too shy. I chatted with a few people here and there and that was it. It would have been the perfect opportunity to get to know some people with similar interests. And that probably would have been helpful when it came to job searching too. Less sociable people are generally at a disadvantage in the career world.

            1. Jill 2*

              100% agree with your last statement. Given how many people talk about the value of networking in job searches, I’m amazed that I’ve gotten every single job I’ve ever had through CraigsList and online job searches.

              Of course, the difference between my path and my brother’s (to go back to that), is he’s on an elite path. The job offers he will get are completely different from mine. He is much better at networking, and his background and school have put him in an echelon I can never break into. The thing is, I know I wouldn’t do well there. But it would have been nice to have the option. I think that’s what’s been hard for me to reconcile with who I am now. There are many things I’m cut off from, whereas 12 years ago, I though the world was my oyster. Part of that is the hubris of youth, but I was always a pretty mature, grounded kid. There was truly a fundamental shift in my life I’m not always at peace with.

              Alas.

    3. Jennifer*

      Think of it this way: most people who’s graduated from college since 2008 have had a bitch of a time getting employment. A lot of people haven’t been able to get any at all. The fact that you’ve at least had retail jobs and now can get temp jobs is doing so much better than most people! Yeah, some people do better. It’s probably easier to do better if you’re a guy and/or if you want to be a manager, though.

      Most people are insecure. I feel like a dumbass because my younger cousins are big shots/going for advanced degrees in smarter science fields–but my skills are in art and writing and we all know those are worth approximately half a used Kleenex in the real world. All I can do (which is to say, what I qualify for) is clerical work any more and I can’t even get another job in that. But….I’m not smart enough to do big shot science/math jobs and I don’t want to be management, so that’s the way it is. I wouldn’t exactly want to go to a class reunion and be all “yup, nobody wanted to marry me and I’m a shitty clerical worker,” but there you have it. Someone has to do it. And at least I have the money to live outside of life.

      Whether or not they’re judging you, I don’t know. Depends on how hard a time they’ve had themselves, I think. But your generation is going uphill in the snow when it comes to job hunting, so I think the expectations need to be lowered compared to what “normal” people did once upon a time.

      1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        Thanks, I appreciate this. I’m well aware that people from my generation have a hard time finding work, especially relevant work. It’s still hard not to be self-conscious though because I guess I just thought most people would find at least something full time a lot sooner than me (and I haven’t yet). I kinda feel like I’m only qualified for clerical work too since that’s about all the job experience I have at this point beyond retail. With the degree I have, I’m sure I’m capable of doing much more, if given the chance to learn how, but to say I’m qualified at this point would be a stretch.

        And I’d like to address this particular point:

        It’s probably easier to do better if you’re a guy and/or if you want to be a manager, though.

        Guys may have an easier time finding relevant jobs because they’re not likely to get pigeonholed into doing admin work like women may be. This is probably getting into another issue entirely, but I don’t care if we stray from my original topic. I could be wrong, but I can’t help but wonder if most temps tend to women. Maybe it depends on the type of temp job. But I can’t see these agencies sending an equal number of guys off to do reception jobs. And if I’m right about that, is it because the guys just aren’t interested, or is there an assumption that women are more likely willing to do admin work?

        1. land of oaks*

          This is purely anecdotal, but maybe it helps hearing an example?

          Try to stop thinking of your experience as “just retail.” You learn how to do a lot of things in retail that are just as valid as job skills as other skills! My sister was in retail for years, and thought she was pigeonholed. Managed to finagle a receptionist job at a large corp, and thought that was probably as far as she’d be able to go. Well, she had bosses who saw that there were things she was really good at, many of them skills she had picked up in stores and restaurants. She is now the Facilities Manager in that corp! She oversees the receptionist, and coordinates other operations of the organization. She makes great money and is really good at her job.

          Just to say: there are paths that retail and admin experience can lead to.

          1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

            It’s not that I think I got nothing out of retail. There are certainly things you can take away from that experience, like customer service, time management, and organizational skills. It just sucked that I was still there for three years after graduating. I think what was frustrating for me was that while job searching, I felt like I kinda had to play up the customer service experience in order to get considered for anything, and yet, the jobs where that is more helpful weren’t the jobs I was all that interested in. I’m very introverted so I’d be much happier in a job where I never have to meet with clients or answer a phone. I don’t deny that admin work can lead to better things, but it’s not the most direct way into the sort of career I would like to have. That would probably be more like trying to make a career switch than moving up. The nice thing is, as a temp, I can do the boring jobs without committing to them. I’m not taking some random admin job and then feeling stuck in it.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Oh my. I could have written parts of this. ugh. You know, sometimes our thoughts paint us into a corner where we cannot move. Our thinking straight-jackets us. And sadly, the more we keep trying to work with this type of thinking the worse it gets.

      One trick someone shared with me was helpful- focus on what you are willing to do. This person went on to explain that we can chew up hours and hours with thinking about stuff that “won’t work” or we “can’t do”. This person said, “Once you ascertain that you will not be doing Idea A, stop thinking about Idea A and move on to other ideas. No need to spend more time on Idea A. Look for ideas that you might actually use.”
      What I loved about this method is that it allowed me to custom tailor my own answers. Usually people say unhelpful or upsetting things like “Get over it. Just do it.” This advice was useless to me. Sometimes life rains on us and we cannot “just get over it”. My friend’s advice was wonderful because it put the power/control back in my own hands.

      As far as people judging you, screw them. Seriously. Most of the time the worst judgement we get comes from inside ourselves. Please realize that. We can be harsher on ourselves than most of the people out there would ever be with us. And going one step further, a friend that spoke to you the way you describe here, does not deserve to be your friend.

      1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        One trick someone shared with me was helpful- focus on what you are willing to do. This person went on to explain that we can chew up hours and hours with thinking about stuff that “won’t work” or we “can’t do”. This person said, “Once you ascertain that you will not be doing Idea A, stop thinking about Idea A and move on to other ideas. No need to spend more time on Idea A. Look for ideas that you might actually use.”
        What I loved about this method is that it allowed me to custom tailor my own answers. Usually people say unhelpful or upsetting things like “Get over it. Just do it.” This advice was useless to me. Sometimes life rains on us and we cannot “just get over it”. My friend’s advice was wonderful because it put the power/control back in my own hands.

        I’m not quite following what you mean here. I’m willing to do work I’m not thrilled about. Are you saying I’m dwelling too much on “ideas” that are just in my head and that I can’t really change?

        As far as people judging you, screw them. Seriously. Most of the time the worst judgement we get comes from inside ourselves. Please realize that. We can be harsher on ourselves than most of the people out there would ever be with us. And going one step further, a friend that spoke to you the way you describe here, does not deserve to be your friend.

        I’m trying to convince myself of this but it still isn’t easy. I’ve always been very critical of myself. I often worry people are judging me and I have to really try hard to tell myself they probably don’t care as much as I think they do. I think it all goes back to when I was a kid. I got bullied and didn’t have many friends. Pretty sure that did a lot of damage. As for your last comment, I’m not really sure what you’re getting at there. Nobody’s actually being verbally condescending to me. I just worry about what people are thinking too much.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          “I’m not quite following what you mean here. I’m willing to do work I’m not thrilled about. Are you saying I’m dwelling too much on “ideas” that are just in my head and that I can’t really change?”

          Am just seeing this, I hope you check back.

          Let me do an example. When I was in the thick of my ear problems with vertigo/pain/etc. It was impossible for me to go to a grocery story. I would go into panic because of the size of the store and how long it took to get things. (I could not tell if I was standing or crawling, my ears were messed up.) So Plan A for getting groceries would ordinarily be to go to a large store with the best selection and get everything. Totally not doable for me. My doctor said quit thinking about this plan that is not doable and look for a plan that might work. I decided that I could go to a little store- like a convenience store and get a few basics. If I went during slow times of day it was easier. So this is what I did. The relief here was I got away from thinking about the problems with getting groceries and how I much difficulty I would have doing that. I was amazed to see that, yep, I did spend a lot of time thinking about going to a big store with my bad ears and trying to navigate all that. By focusing on what I was willing to do, I gained more ground. I actually came home with a few groceries. I went on to tackle other difficulties in a the same manner. Focusing on plans that would work and dropping plans that were not doable for me. (I had a bear of a time with my ears and it threw off everything in my life.)

          The part about condescension: Sorry… what I was aiming for here is how we speak to ourselves. If it is wrong to say it to a friend then it is wrong to say it to ourselves. It’s important to watch our self-talk.

          See, when we are hard on ourselves it is very easy to imagine other people being equally hard on us behind our backs. Give yourself a break once in a while and it will be easier to see other people as less critical also. Yes, that is an odd thing. But the two go hand-in-hand sometimes. Our own negative self-talk perpetuates our fret/worry. It becomes much easier to imagine other people being just as critical of us as we are of ourselves, because those negative thoughts are at the forefront of our thinking.

          I hope I did a better job of explaining.

          1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

            Thanks. That makes some more sense now, although I’m still not quite sure how to apply it to my own situation. I don’t think my issue is really about dwelling on things I can’t do. I dwell on the past and replay things that have happened or think about what could have happened. And I overthink what might happen in the future. I probably just need to stop thinking about the past so much because I can’t do anything about it now.

            I’m definitely harder on myself than I am on other people, so maybe I just need to realize that they’re probably harder on themselves than on me too. I’m trying to be a little easier on myself and to tell myself people aren’t actually looking down on me. It’s just hard to let that sink in until I really believe it.

  62. KJR*

    We have a debate going on over here, and I was hoping to have some commenters weigh in. We are a smallish company (under 50 employees), and do not distribute an employee address list. A few employees have commented to me that they find this strange. I handle the HR duties for this company, and have tried to explain that I am just trying to guard people’s privacy, and that I am happy to release an address with an employee’s permission. This has surfaced again because an employee’s dad passed away and some people wanted to send a card to his house. I would love to get some feedback from others who work in smaller companies. Thanks!

    1. Sarah Nicole*

      It’s not odd not to distribute an address list to a small company. I am in a small company now and they do not do that, and I’ve worked for smaller and they didn’t do that. I just can’t think of enough times when that would even be helpful that would outweigh employees’ right to privacy. I wouldn’t want anyone at my company distributing my address, no matter what others’ (alleged) intentions were.

    2. OriginalYup*

      A firm and resounding NO on employee address lists. There is zero need for anyone outside HR to have that info, and they’re off base in thinking it’s normal. I’ve seen plenty of small companies do stuff like this but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or something you should normalize.

      For bereavement cards or similar, tell people that the company will send a card on behalf of everyone (if this is what you do). If they’d like to send a personal message, they can drop off a sealed envelope with the employee’s name on it to HR and HR will coordinate getting them directly to the recipient. It’s very kind of them to want to do, but still no on giving out other people’s personal info.

      1. KJR*

        Thank you for this! I really am in the minority on this, and was really feeling the push back yesterday, so I appreciate the validation that I am not completely off base!

        1. OriginalYup*

          You’re not off base at all. And on behalf of employees everywhere, thank you for caring about privacy and opt-in consent!

        2. Dot Warner*

          Definitely not! I’ve seen employees’ addresses misused before and would hate for that to happen to anybody!

          1. Windchime*

            Yeah, there are people (one in particular) at work that I absolutely would not want to have my address. I realize he can probably google it up if he’s that determined, but still yet — there is no work-related reason that my address needs to be on a distribution list.

    3. Amethyst*

      The only reason I can look up where my coworkers live is because we all have access to the database our accountants use. But there are few enough of us (less than 15) that we know none of us would randomly give out the address. It would be my preference to just get cards at work if people felt it necessary to do cards. (This might be harder if the person went on extended leave. In that case, I would want one of us in the office to send it on everyone’s behalf. This is what we do when community members call asking for other people’s addresses when those people don’t want this info public.)

      There have definitely been people I’ve worked with that I wouldn’t want to have my address, either because I didn’t want them to know, or because I didn’t trust them not to just look it up if random customers/visitors asked for it. Some people are really clueless and if someone called up going “Oh Amethyst was so nice to me I want to send her a card” they’d give out an address, never thinking that oh, my family had a stalker for a while so I don’t want that kind of thing happening.

    4. E*

      I started work at my current company over 5 years ago, and it’s grown from 20ish folks to over 90 employees now. We don’t distribute an address list at all. If a card needs to go out, someone sends it around for signatures and HR mails it out. I’d think it more uncommon for an employer of any size to give out my personal contact info without my knowledge or consent.

    5. Natalie*

      I work for a fairly large company, so distributing an address list would be really strange. Our HR hands out a form to fill out where one can either allow (or disallow) one’s address to be shared with co-workers upon request. That seems like a reasonable option to me. If people want to share they can, and if they don’t want to they don’t have to.

    6. Apollo Warbucks*

      I don’t agree there should be an address list handed round for general use its confidential information and could be open to abuse.

      Could you get cards handed to you, then address them and send them out? It’s such a nice gusture to send good wishes to a coworker at a bad time.

      1. KJR*

        This seems like a good option. People were actually offended that I wouldn’t give out the guy’s address! I did see him last night and asked if it would be OK to give it to the people that asked for it, and he gave me permission to do so.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          People were offended? Do they want their address given out to each random person that asks?

    7. CTE 08-8F NAV*

      This kind of thing has come up before here on AAM – long story short: I think you’re absolutely correct about how you’re doing things. Frankly, the “problems” seem to begin when people *don’t* respect their employee’s privacy, and you have someone who has been trying to avoid a violent ex- having to uproot themselves and move to a new place for their own safety. Or countless other scenarios. We’ve been living with the Internet for 20 years now – I don’t think there is any excuse for people to *not* take into consideration the privacy of their co-workers and employees. And to you personally, I say: well done!

    8. Felicia*

      I’ve never actually worked anywhere or heard of anywhere that distributed an employee address less maybe because I’ve only worked places with 20 employees or less, as do most of my friends. If I worked somewhere like that I would be very uncomfortable and not want my address distributed.

    9. MaryMary*

      I work for a company of about 100 people, and I was kind of creeped out to get a Christmas card from a coworker (well, his wife) I had never given my address to. I know it was meant well, both from the card sender and whoever gave out my address, but I don’t think it’s appropriate.

    10. land of oaks*

      Are the people complaining older people? I know many years ago (pre-internet) this used to be A Thing at places I worked. Home addresses and phone numbers were kind of considered public info because they were in the phone book anyway, and everyone had a phone book. And people just knew this info for their coworkers. I mean, before cellphones and the internet, if you were going to miss work for some reason, sometimes you had to call your boss at home because that was the only way to get ahold of them.

      I agree that things have changed and I would never want this kind of thing distributed anywhere I worked now, ugh. But that might be where these people are coming from, not that they’re deliberately being cray cray.

  63. Anonfornow*

    Oh thank God. I’ve been waiting for this.

    Is quitting your job without having something else lined up always a terrible idea? I’ve been here about six months, in a semi-senior role (and in case it isn’t obvious, my uncertainty about just how senior I am is part of the problem). I was warned that my department was new and I was going to have to not only develop a lot of systems but persuade a lot of senior people of the necessity of my position, but I didn’t appreciate what that was going to involve. My superiors are well-meaning but never around, and their idea of “well-meaning” often involves creating (and publicizing) unrealistic projects which I then have to walk back or try and make a reality anyway, none of which helps our relationship with outsiders. The project directors are blithely going on doing their own thing without looping me in despite multiple reminders and admonishments to do so, which creates its own set of problems. Oh, and did I mention it’s a small organization, so I have no real support staff and no other department or role to transition into?

    Theoretically, I could tough it out, or wait and see if they realize it’s not working and fire me. They are aware that I’m not happy, but think the problems can be solved. Well, maybe they can, but it’s not going to be by me. In fact, I am so discouraged that I’m thinking of leaving the field altogether, despite not having worked for any other type of organization, which is not helping the job search. And with every day that passes, I worry I’m getting closer to a meltdown that will scuttle my chances of leaving on at least cordial terms. What do, oh wise AAM posters?

    1. Delyssia*

      I have quit a job without having another firmly lined up.* I had to do so for my own sanity and mental health. I mean that sincerely, with no exaggeration. I was fully prepared to do whatever was necessary in order to get by for a while.

      That said, I think that’s really a last resort, and only you know if you’re there. If you’re about ready to quit, do you have anything to lose by pushing back on their unrealistic projects, or trying to restructure your position, or something else?

      Questions to ask yourself before you quit: If you quit without something lined up, how long can you afford to be out of work? How long can you get by if you are underemployed?

      * I was in discussion with my prior employer about the possibility of coming back to my old job, which ultimately worked out, but it was very much up in the air when I quit.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I have also done this. I had wanted to move cities for a few years but it had never been “the right time,” and then a downtime at work coincided with a suddenly untenable roommate situation, and at the same time I was offered a place to crash in the metro area I wanted to move to. Perfect storm. I did it, it took about 4 months to find a stopgap job and about 7 to find one I could actually live on. I don’t really recommend it unless you have a place to land, but it can be done.

  64. afiendishthingy*

    Major cringe – 80% sure the Teapot Director overheard me and a couple coworkers complaining about him yesterday. I don’t think he’s going to acknowledge it, so I guess we’ve all learned an important lesson about Indoor Voices and saving venting for Rooms With Doors.

    I know we were in the wrong to bitch about our boss in the office, but the larger issue – which doesn’t excuse our behavior – is the Director is a terrible leader and it’s really affecting morale. He’s unsupportive, unreliable, and just overall chronically unhelpful. I am worried it’s a “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” situation, and I’m really not ready to leave so I guess I have to learn to live with it. Any tips on that part of it? I think I probably need to cut out the majority of the venting, even when it’s in a “safe space;” it’s a relief to a point because EVERYONE is sympathetic but then I get stuck in the negativity cycle. Although on paper he’s my direct supervisor, a lot of my work is pretty autonomous and there are other higher ups in the department who are actually helpful, so other than some terribly run meetings a couple times a month I can often work around him. And hey, maybe eventually he’ll quit – I can dream, right?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’d start looking around. At least be aware what is going on in your area for openings. My experience has been that sucky bosses just get suckier. It’s like they try to top the last fiasco. Sympathy does not relieve the knot in your stomach. The person who is a terrible boss is the person who probably writes your reviews and controls your raises. YMMV. But I think starting to look around will not hurt.

  65. SoftwareNerd*

    I’m a pretty recent lurker to AAM, but you guys all seem like a pretty great bunch and I’d love to get your take on some frustrations I’m having at work.

    For some background, I’m a software engineer with a few months shy of three years experience and still at my first job out of college. I came from a different education background (biophysics), so I know that my boss really took a chance on hiring me. (I also lowballed them to get my foot in the door, this becomes a bit important later). I’ll have my Masters degree in software engineering in about 10 weeks. During the past almost-3 years, I’ve progressed from small bits on projects to recently being given one of my own. On my last project (project PITA for future reference), I also stepped up to the plate and took over some project lead duties when my project lead was overworked. This tells me that my boss’s risk at taking me on has really paid off (he also acknowledged this).

    So, I have three main problems at the moment, mainly centered around my boss and his way of handling things.

    1) A coworker (who was given project lead duties on project PITA, but never took them over. I wasn’t aware and kept moving forward with giving out tasking and such and he never stopped me) is pretty much useless. By useless, I’m talking does less than the bare minimum and doesn’t get called out for it.
    *Feel free to skip the long rant/explanation below. It’s just me trying to demonstrate that I feel I’ve tried everything*

    At first, I kept my mouth shut and head down and just made sure that we were meeting deadlines. This wore me out fairly quickly. After I became the ‘bottleneck’ for meeting the deadline for one of the builds (due to not having anyone else I could rely on to get the work done. It was me, the lead, and an intern), I went to my boss and explained the problem in a “How can I handle this better/not become the bottleneck/etc.” way. I also was up front with my concerns about the lead, namely that I didn’t feel he had my back after it took him 3 months to do one small piece of code that didn’t work. I had to fix it right before the customer came out to witness a quality test.
    My boss agreed that there might be an issue an decided that he would give us a set amount of tasking and then check in with us after a week. I agreed that that would make me feel better and shared my concern over having to do 95%+ of the work.
    My boss did, in fact, sit down with us and give us 32 estimated hours worth of tasking. Then never followed through with checking up on it. A month later, he directed me to finish the tasking the lead was given during that sit-down. I was put on another project (all by myself!) and taken off that one for a bit. My boss implied that the project lead was going to be on his own so that he would fail by his own merits, if he did.

    *Rant/exaplanation over. tl:dr, coworker was supposed to be on his own to fail while I was off on another project after I went to my boss with my concerns*

    Two months have passed and I’ve been pulled back onto the PITA project (my other project is wrapping up and everyone is really pleased with my work). Nothing has gotten done. I just spent two ridiculous days doing documentation (at the direction of my boss) that the project lead never did. My boss also gave us tasking last Thursday to get done in two days. I got pulled into emergency stuff on my wrapping-up project and was delayed, which I let him know. He still hasn’t checked up on us. I know for a fact things still haven’t gotten done.

    Advice on handling this? My boss told me a while back that I could go to his boss if I felt he wasn’t handling it properly. I’m just struggling with judging if now is the right time or not.

    I’ll keep these other two short since that turned out way longer than I wanted.

    2.) We haven’t had out annual reviews yet, despite the fact that they were supposed to be done by 3/31. I would really like a chance to sit down with my boss and see how he thinks I’ve handled everything (and see how he’s going to rate me in each category). What’s the best way to approach him about when my review will be?

    3) My boss seems to get in the way more than anything else. On the project I was given to do all by myself, there was a lot of scope creep once I started designing the needed software. There were also major issues with the hardware we were using. I lost about three weeks worth of work messing around with trying to get things working and ended up going with a third-party solution. It turns out, my boss was the one who advocated for the boards (and still wonders why we’re having problems with them…). Not to mention, he told me there wasn’t overtime on the project (turns out there was) and was late getting me started with it because he was busy with other stuff. He makes himself the keeper of all information and makes decisions early in the project that effects whoever is working on it. This also makes it so sometimes I have no choice but to go for him for little things because he is the only contact I have. Any advice on dealing with this?

    I should add in the fact that I’m massively underpaid (my boss has admitted this to my face. I’m currently promised a raise. Yeah, I’ll believe it when I see it.)

    The things that are keeping me here are that I really love the work, enjoy seeing the customer be happy with my work, and have signed an agreement to work for x amount of time (or pay them back) because they’re helping me get my Masters. I might, however, have an opportunity to transfer within company in a few months.

    If you made it this far, I seriously appreciate any advice you have.

    1. Graciosa*

      Okay, there’s a lot here.

      I’ll start with the simple one, which is #2. You don’t ask your boss exactly how he is going to rate you on each item in your review before you have your review. This is what happens at the review, not the pre-review review you seem to be looking for.

      You can ask for feedback on your performance (note feedback is not the same as a rating) if you’re not getting it regularly. You should be getting enough feedback throughout the year that your performance review should not be a major surprise. This means that you should know your boss thinks you’re good at X and need to work on Y. This does not mean it counts as a major surprise if you get a B+ or B- instead of a straight B.

      Yes, performance reviews can be a little stressful, but they are a normal part of working life. Get used to them.

      On #1, you’re handling it fine. Again, this stuff happens. You’ve alerted your boss to the problem, and done what you can. At some point, you have to leave this stuff to management – and then observe whether and how well they do their jobs. Good managers will be allowing him to suffer some consequences (and you probably won’t ever see that), even if they have to step in to keep the project from failing entirely if the impact would be too severe to the company.

      #3 is probably your biggest issue. Some of this stuff is normal – you’re going to run into bosses who make decisions you don’t agree with – and sometimes it’s a sign of good management (they know stuff you don’t) and sometimes it’s not (they don’t know stuff you do and didn’t ask).

      The way to address it is to figure out how to convince your boss that it is in the boss’ best interest to change. The boss is extraordinarily unlikely to change because it would make things easier for you, or because you don’t like “wasting” three weeks of work. Your time belongs to the company, and your boss gets to tell you to do things you think are a waste. You don’t demand to be included in the boss’ project plan – you ask how you can help take some of the burden.

      This is just the summary answer, and in reality managing your boss is a skill you will develop over time. You might as well start practicing consciously as soon as possible. Managing Up is a book you might consider if you want to pursue this a little further.

      Finally, although you didn’t mention this, I would urge you to find a mentor – someone you can discuss these things with as they arise who is a bit more experienced than you are with good judgment and the ability to keep confidences. What you’re experiencing is very normal at this point in your career – later in your career you’ll have different struggles but these will seem easier – but sometimes you need someone to reinforce that or to help you develop good strategies for handling whatever issues are currently on your plate.

      Good luck.

      1. SoftwareNerd*

        Thanks for your response!

        To clarify though, on #2, I’m more interested in when my actual review is going to be, not in having a pre-review review. I do want to have a discussion with my boss after I hear his feedback. The discussion is going to center around job satisfaction, as it’s demoralizing to work with someone who doesn’t have your back and is not producing while simultaneously being underpaid. My boss is also not the greatest at providing feedback on a consistent basis. Last year, I knew I was fairly solid, but he still surprised me a bit when I asked for specific things I could be working on. I really just want him to acknowledge the amount of work I’ve handled.

        There’s also the fact that we’re supposed to discuss goals for this year (that’s almost half over) and we’re supposed to have a mid-year review…starting in August.

        It is nice to hear that I’m handling #1 as well as I can. The only problem is that nothing is changing (a.k.a.- I’m not seeing his work getting turned into our repository. I keep an eye on it now so that I’m prepared when it comes to me having to do his work too). This wouldn’t bother me except that I know that I’m the one that will have to deal with getting it all done at the last minute when panic mode sets in. I guess I’ll just have to deal with that the best I can.

        Thanks for recommendation of Managing Up! I think I have some reading to do this weekend. I have tried to phrase some things like that, especially with problem #1 (“I don’t want to come to you for answers because I know you’re busy, but project lead cannot answer my questions”). There wasn’t really time in the mad rush surrounding the project wrapping up though. Not to mention he usually makes those decisions before we even know there’s a new project coming up.

        I generally go to my parents for advice, as they’re both in managing/supervisory roles. The problem there is that we all work for the same company (just in very different areas) and they know how bad some of the problems are. I wanted to try to get a completely 3rd party POV from the AAM community.

        Thanks again!

        1. GH in SoCAl*

          I’m not in your field, but the issue of feeling like a co-worker isn’t pulling their weight and you’re going to have to pick up their slack is universal. Your post and your reply to Graciosa sound like you are looking for a way to fix that, or to get your boss to fix it. I recommend letting go of that instinct. It’s not up to you to judge your co-worker, and you’re creating your own negativity bubble by letting it get to you. I advise you to see the positive: by being the person who your boss comes to to save the day when something has fallen through the cracks, you are cementing your own good reputation. Without your co-worker screwing up, you wouldn’t have had the opportunity to go above and beyond.

          I’d concentrate on trying to get your salary re-aligned with your current value. That might mean leaving this company once you’ve met your obligations. The arrangement was mutually beneficial up to now — you got your Masters and the experience you needed in your new field, both of which are valuable to you. But going forward, you may need a fresh start where you’re perceived at your current level of knowledge.

  66. 24*

    Young professional with under 2 years of professional work experience here. What professional development courses would you recommend to someone just starting out in their career? My company offers to cover expenses for one approved course every year, and I’d like to take full advantage of it.

    1. Kara Ayako*

      It really depends on what you do. I’ve gone to the Decker Communications courses which is all about presentation skills and thought it was great. I also started taking project management courses before I ever became a PMP (project management professional) and was able to apply a lot of that to many aspects of my job.

      Professional development for professional development’s sake doesn’t make much sense. It’s much more effective if you determine what business objectives you’re responsible for, what strengths you need to leverage to meet those objectives, and then where you need development. You can use this to determine what kind of courses you need to attend.

      1. Fed Up*

        My manager suggested general courses such as communication and time management, so I’m looking for more general professional development courses instead of career-specific ones. Any other recommendations besides communication and time management for me to consider?

    3. MaryMary*

      If you can take people management classes, do it. Even if they’re offered by your company and focus on How Not To Get Us Into Legal Trouble, you’ll be ahead of everyone else when you eventually have people report to you.

      If you weren’t a business major, accounting or finance classes would be helpful. You should know what ROI is, for example, and the difference between the literal and figurative bottom line.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I definitely recommend accounting. Even if you never use it, you will understand better why management makes the decisions it does and in turn you will also be able to develop better answer when they ask your opinion on something.

  67. Fed Up*

    How do you handle coworkers you just can’t stand? I have one particular coworker I just can’t stand. Her work is fine. Our personalities just don’t mix. I find her a complete suck up (she painted our superior’s nails at work because she was an esthetician before), always fawning over other people gushing over that terrible bug going around whenever someone so much as coughs, interjecting herself into my conversations with others (conversations are not always private, but I was still talking to that person), competing with me for others’ attention (when people say hi and make small talk with me, she’ll interrupt and make small talk with them as if I’m not there), being a busybody, talking too much about nothing at all (“Look at that boat” or “It’s freezing in here”) or oversharing about irrelevant things about her family and friends, etc.

    It doesn’t help that we sit together, so I always witness her trying so hard, like she’s trying to compensate for something. I get so fed up with her it really ruins my feelings towards work.

    Anything advice on what to do about that one insufferable coworker?

    1. fposte*

      1) Distract, distract, distract. Thinking about how much she annoys you increases the annoyance. Headphones, cat pictures, whatever. Stop thinking about her.

      2) Convert, convert, convert. She’s a puppy and whatever she says you just hear as puppy yips. Or her voice is a tone noise that signals you to go get a drink of water or walk around the building.

      But seriously, when you hear her say “Oh, that’s a bad cough,” deliberately focus your attention on something else–if you find yourself thinking “Gah, NuNu’s so freaking annoying” you need to turn your brain around and feed it something else. You can’t shut her up, but you can stop picking at the wound.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        If I ever manage to do this I will be so much happier. I’m so prone to Bitch Eating Crackers mode. Some part of me thinks I should like everyone and I’m mean for being annoyed by someone, and the guilt of that added into the constant irritation makes everything worse. So weirdly, giving myself permission to Just Not Like someone can bring me a little bit of peace. Rather going through the negative thought cycle of omg you’re so annoying NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR NEW PATIO that joke isn’t funny why am i such a bitch i’m not perfect omg are you still talking i hate yoooouuuuu, if I can think “I don’t like you, and that’s ok” it’s easier to let go a bit? I’m also starting to try meditating.

        It sounds like some things are legitimately harmful to your productivity, so you could try when she starts with irrelevant oversharing or comments about the temperature a firm “I can’t talk right now, it makes it hard for me to concentrate.” Can you wear headphones? Can you point out that (gently but firmly) that you were trying to have a conversation with Jane that you weren’t able to finish because of her interrupting?

        Any possibility of moving desks? It sounds like it’s very chilly in your section of the office!

        Good luck!

        1. Fed Up*

          That is exactly what goes through my mind! I feel guilty for thinking such bad thoughts about her and feel I should be more patient and forgiving towards my coworkers and have a bright, positive attitude so other people won’t think I’m being difficult. BUT it’s so hard because I have to put up with it everyday! I also am reminding myself that not everyone has to like everyone and it’s perfectly okay to Not Like Someone, but then she’ll do something I can’t stand and it just stokes the flames of my hatred even more. lol

    3. Amethyst*

      I try to zen out. When I found myself severely annoyed by a coworker to the point that I was losing respect for her (she was saying -ist things and no one cared) I had to make a conscious decision of “It hurts me to care about this, and does not affect her. I need to stop caring.” Then every time she said something that annoyed me, I mentally went, “Ugh – okay, decouple feelings for a moment here. Step back. Deep breath. Concentrate on task, tune out voice.”

      Personally for me sometimes I just have to tell myself repeatedly “you are not going to care about this anymore” before I can start to tune someone out.

    4. Lillie Lane*

      Ugh. It’s very hard to not get into bitch-eating-crackers mode. The only thing that helps me is to try to find one or two qualities about her that are likeable/admirable, and when her other actions/personality bug you, try and focus on those positives. Also, you might want to ask her about some interest that she has (like the nail painting, or some hobby) and ask her tons of questions about it and feign interest, even if you do.not.care. Sometimes this alleviates the interjecting, busybodyness, and/or competing for attention. Give her your full, undivided attention in a conversation when she’s talking about something she likes, and I bet she will become less annoying.

      1. Jennifer*

        Seconding this. I do like my cube neighbor, but she talks a lot, was the one that blasted music, and says the same phrases so often she’s like a doll with a pull string out the back. I try to focus on the good stuff and do my best to ignore what’s getting on my nerves.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I get into bitch eating crackers mode really easily…I tend to respond to the annoyances with a big (real or in my head) eye roll, and try to frame it as a sort of “oh honey”/poor thing. If I pity how terrible/inconsiderate/annoying people are, I’m not as stressed out about them.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Do you stand up for yourself at all? Yes, it matters. And yes, consistency is important. Of everything here the thing that would bother me the most is injecting herself into your conversations. Maybe you can, “excuse me I was saying something here” in the moment it happens. Or maybe you can point out to her in a private moment that she does not need to join in every conversation you have.

      I would also consider telling her that you are one of those people who prefers to work quietly.
      Perhaps ask the boss if you can move to another spot.

      The reason I mention this standing up for yourself stuff is because I have found that my worst BEC episodes happened when I did nothing or did minimal to stand up for me. We owe it to ourselves to find ways. Pick one or two things and decide that those are the things you will speak up about. (yeah, you can’t do a laundry list- so just pick the things that seem to impact you the most).

      Conversely, you could be so fed up that one day you might just want to ask her “What are you trying to compensate for? Something’s going on here, what is it?”

      Whatever you chose, I would favor something that is less passive than what you are doing now. Oddly, the benefit I found was that I was less irritated by the person. My annoyance level went down for varying reasons.

  68. INTP*

    So, I’ve had my future plans pretty much turned upside down recently.

    I just graduated with my MA in a field where the norm is freelance contract work. I have an in-house position that is related to what I want to do (i.e., I want to build the chocolate teapots, and I am at least working with the teapots in a hands-on capacity, while the vast majority of in-house positions involve coordinating the production of the teapots in a very hands-off way). My job is also ideally suited to trying to put together a freelance income stream because I basically set my own hours and my own number of hours, I can work remotely, and I’m working with one of the largest companies in my industry who might hire me as an independent contractor teapot constructor when I reach the requisite 2 years of experience (I am at 1 right now).

    The pay, though, is not that great, especially when full-time hours are sometimes not available. So I planned to move back home and live with my parents while getting my income to a more stable level, pursuing some certifications with really low pass rates, and also helping my mom with my adult special needs brother since my youngest brother is leaving for college. Then I found out they are likely moving to another state for a job offer (for complicated niche-industry reasons, he feels he doesn’t have a choice financially). So annoying that I have to move cross-country twice in one summer but doable.

    Except…yesterday I remembered that when I first discussed moving, my boss said “It’s fine as long as we have an office in that state.” (I assume for HR/tax/paperwork reasons, which is fair enough.) And the new state does not have a location for my company. Nothing is final yet – I plan to talk to my boss when I know everything about dates and when the house is selling and all of that – but as of now it looks like I’ll either have to give up my job to move, or pay rent that the job barely covers just to keep it. (And I’ll have to move twice anyways because I can’t afford an apartment I can work from home in where my parents currently live. I just can’t WFH all day in a 400 square foot noisy studio.)

  69. Amber Rose*

    A coworker spilled coffee on the edge of my desk. No big deal, I have tissues, it’s not even a thing. Except he made a big apologetic fuss when I said I would clean it up and proceeded to do it himself… with his butt. Like, he used the seat of his pants to dry the coffee.

    I’m not a germophobe or anything but having people’s butts on my desk is really gross to me. Really. I want to sterilize my desk now. D:

      1. Amber Rose*

        No he’s just a really awkward dude. I think he thought it was just him being funny.

    3. Sarah Nicole*

      Oh I laughed out loud at this one. What was he even thinking?! Now you’re weirded out AND his pants are wet. That’s just odd.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I would laugh too but I’m too grossed out.

        At least it’s not just me, and this was really a weird thing. Sometimes I have a hard time telling.

    4. afiendishthingy*

      That is just totally bizarre. Now there’s a brown stain on the seat of his pants! Does he do other super weird stuff because I want to hear about it

      1. Amber Rose*

        He’s just an awkward dude. He’s the kind that tries to be the “funny one” but all his jokes fall flat. He’s also always suffering from some sort of medical ailment.

        1. goneanon*

          oh god. Does he laugh at his own bad jokes? I know a guy in a community group with me, good-hearted dude, has Asperger’s, thinks we are good friends but he drives me INSANE, talks constantly and tries to be the funny one and laughs at his own jokes. I work with people with autism so I feel extra bad about this

      2. SaraV*

        SOOO glad I wasn’t drinking something or there would have been liquid all over my laptop because of the brown stain comment.

    9. littlemoose*

      I’m so sorry that happened to you, but I’m not gonna lie, the mental image just made my day.

  70. super anon*

    hi open thread! a quick question today: do you think that grey/silver hair on younger women is unprofessional?

    i have a job interview at a major university next week, but i’ve also jumped on the grey hair/granny trend and i’m trying to decide if i should go to the salon before hand to tone my hair back to a platinum blonde, or if an ashy silver will be ok to go with. if it matters any, my hair is very well kept and always bleached and toned by a professional, so i don’t look scraggly or anything. i realize these kinds of questions can be very subjective based on work place, position, etc, but i’d like general opinions before i decide what to do.

    1. Lucy*

      In my experience, especially working in higher ed, unless you’re in a field like fashion or design I’d err on the side of conservative for interviews.

      1. super anon*

        that’s what a figured too, although in my last department (at this same institution) i had bright red rihanana hair and no one batted an eye at it, and another coworker had purple hair for an extended period of time and it wasn’t a problem either. but for an interview, i don’t think it would be in my best interest even if grey is a natural hair colour people have.

        i don’t mind going back to blonde, but i just spend $200 getting my hair redone a week ago and it hurts a little bit to think about having to spend that much again so soon!

    2. afiendishthingy*

      I am 31 and in most ways look very young (went to see a band the other night and they checked my id twice because she couldn’t believe it the first time) except that I have had a few silver hairs since childhood which over the past few years have grown into a very noticeable silver streak in front. I absolutely love it; I feel like it’s somehow punk rock and distinguished at the same time. It would never occur to me to think it’s unprofessional.

      I’m the daughter and sister of professors, and in my experience academia is not an area where unnatural hair colors, etc are a hindrance, although I’m sure it depends on department – an executive assistant the provost probably couldn’t have hot pink hair like my sister the adjunct sociology prof. But grey doesn’t seem unprofessional to me.

    3. Diddly*

      Wow I’d hope this is never a factor. Your hair color does not affect the way you do the job, as long as you’re well presented I see nothing wrong with having grey hairs.

    4. HigherEd Admin*

      I feel a little differently about the granny hair trend than I do about say, bright pink hair. I mean, maybe your hair is naturally gray? I have loads of friends that grayed at a very young age. Some have dyed their hair, some have embraced the gray.

      Does it look nice? Will you wear it in a professional style? If yes, then I think it will be fine.

      1. super anon*

        My main reason for doing it was that half of my head is already silver (I started going grey at 14). I dyed it dark for ages because salt and pepper hair isn’t cute on anyone but once silver became a trend I was *so* happy that I would be able to jump on it and embrace my inner-granny.

        1. fposte*

          Ahem. I believe you mean “not everyone has the natural panache to pull off salt and pepper hair.”

          1. afiendishthingy*

            Yeah, pretty sure that is what she meant! I work with an absolutely adorable woman with very curly salt and pepper hair. I think her hair is fantastic.

    5. INTP*

      Unless you’re really, really attached to the gray hair, I’d give it up. It’s not like going completely gray is common for women in their 20s (versus some strands or streaks here and there), and it’s a big trend now, so I just don’t think people are going to look at you and think “Hmm, it’s probably natural.” (They’ll also look at your roots and eyebrows to try to figure it out.) Academia can be a weird combo of fairly progressive people and staunch old-fashioned luddites so you might be fine, but I don’t think it would be much more interview-safe than, say, pale pink or bright orange hair.

    6. Gene*

      I say leave it silver (which is a look I like) and make sure you wear a dragon brooch or necklace. :-)

    7. CTE 08-8F NAV*

      Seriously, I’m a bit taken aback at your question: is it unprofessional? I’ve been working in the IT / tech biz for 30 years, and I’ve never heard anyone ever bring it up, ever. I suppose that even nowadays, some people might raise an eyebrow over some of the more unusual hair color options, like bright pink or green. But silver or grey? At my (Fortune 500) company, nobody would even think about it. If there is some kind of ‘thing’ out there where some people are unhappy about it – it’s news to me.

      Caveat: I’m a big fan of the ‘grey / silver’ hair look. But if I were interviewing you, your hair color and appearance wouldn’t even be a consideration unless it was something outlandish.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I kind of stopped there for a second, also. Is gray hair unprofessional? Not at any employer that I would ever consider working for. That does not mean there are not employers out there that do not like gray hair. But judging people on their natural hair color? Really?

  71. Nashira*

    I’m currently working on a computer info systems degree, with a strong interest in either programming or information security. It’s about 1.5 years til I job hunt, so I have some time to find my goal.

    The only problem is that I’m the only woman in most of my classes. Most of the technologists I know in meatspace are also male, aside from my mom the info sec professor. They usually aren’t that sexist, so it’s not that I feel targetted right now… I just feel like I’m starving for contact with other women in the field!

    I know both IEEE and ACM have subgroups that focus on women in technology, to help out folks like me. Does anyone have any experience with either of these groups? Are there other places you might suggest I explore, to help combat these feelings of being the odd one out, and maybe find a mentor? I’m also planning to apply to the Systers mailing list.

    2. Carmen*

      Hi! I work in InfoSec. I’ll be honest, there aren’t a lot of women in the field overall, and going to meetups, conferences, training, etc can make it seem like there are NO women. However, we are out there!

      Where are you located? I can offer you some additional suggestions based on your general area.

      Things off the top of my head:

      Can you attend the Grace Hopper Convention in Houston? http://gracehopper.org/ – there is a student rate to attend the conference. If you want to interact with other women technologists, this is a great place to go.

      If you are interested in information security, Executive Women’s Forum has a mentor program. http://www.ewf-usa.com/ – you have to apply, but you’ll be paired with a senior information security/risk mentor. This organization is small but really fantastic.

  72. Red Cord*

    I’m transitioning to a new position and a new email address at my company. I’m going to set up an auto-responder on my old address, but does anyone have any thoughts on whether I should also include a note about my new position/title, and if so, what that note would say?

    1. ACA*

      “Thanks for your email. I am now working as a Senior Teapot Designer; if you have questions about teapot design, please email [new email]. If you were writing regarding teapot handle stress tests, please contact Lucretia in Teapot Engineering.”

  73. kristinyc*

    I’m hiring a temp to perm junior level person. The temp agency has sent over resumes, and the most promising candidate so far (in terms of background/skills) has a few glaring mistakes on her resume. Deal breaker?

    Some are spelling/formatting of software they use (Sales Force instead of Salesforce – so, not a huge deal, but I need this person to have attention to detail). But in the education section, it say “[Name] Community Collage.” Should that be a deal breaker? And since the temp agency presumably reviewed/scrubbed the resume – should I be concerned about them not catching something like that?

    1. super anon*

      i’ve read from other comments here on AAM that often temp agencies will upload resumes to their own systems and from that conversion lots of mistakes seep in. that could be the case here, and with that in mind i don’t think the typos should be a deal breaker.

    2. Diddly*

      It might be… I had a minor error on my resume, which was brought up at interview, then was required to do a brief test – where my attention to detail was found to be lacking. They hired me anyway and it didn’t work out. Partly because of the attention to detail thing – but also due to a lot of other factors – lots of miscommunication and they wanted a lot from a small badly paid role. If they had clearly pointed out my errors and how big a deal they were we might have got somewhere. (There was also v poor management.)
      Anyway – options you could call her in for a specific test during the interview and see just how poor her attention to detail is. If it’s not that bad you could hire her but inform her that attention to detail is a high priority and that from her resume it appears to be something she needs to pay special attention to and inform her that you need x,y,z done like such and such. And perhaps keep checking up on her to make sure she’s keeping an eye on it.
      But I guess it depends on the role, if that’s too much work then it’s probably not worth hiring her, but if she’s the only good candidate I’d see if you can test her and then make her aware how important attention to detail is.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Yeah, I’d say closer to a red flag instead of a dealbreaker. Though it would annoy the pants off me.

    4. INTP*

      How important is spelling/writing to the position? Will the person be writing documents or emails that will be seen by higher ups, clients, or the public?

      If so, then it’s a complete dealbreaker. Otherwise, probably a red flag. I’ve had a bunch of coworkers with horrible spelling skills and they have been decent employees. I’m a word person so it’s hard for me to imagine an educated person who isn’t an idiot writing “Collage” but I’ve learned that it’s possible.

    5. Joey*

      Call the temp company and ask if they caught the errors and why they decided to pass along the résume?

      I bet they did a poor job

      1. kristinyc*

        I thought about it, but I felt bad about potentially embarrassing her. If I end up rejecting her for the role, I might mention it to her so she can fix it for future interviews.

    7. kristinyc*

      Update!
      I just had a phone screen with her, and she had a really great background for the role. She actually had an in-progress associate’s degree, but was self taught in the our field and knew a lot about it. I still have a few more people to speak to, but I liked her! It’s not a copywriting role (but would be communicating with a lot of internal audiences).

      I haven’t really loved the temp agency though – they’re a bit more schmoozy than I’d like, and they keep trying to push candidates that have 10 years of experience (when I’m asking for 2-4). I’m working with multiple recruiters, but I’m trying to not penalize candidates because their recruiters are terrible.

  74. This is me, being totally anonymous*

    Regular open thread commenter here going anon.

    I work in an academic establishment.

    Potential students – it is NOT a good thing if we already know your name several months prior to starting your course.

    Student A, I’m looking at you, querying every little email when you’ve already had the information. No, you cannot be placed in a county we don’t use. Go to a different uni, if you want to be placed there.

    Student B, I’m looking at you, who not only asked their MSP to email international countries for your background criminal check but also sent it 2 copies of the same form with slightly different information on it and then replied in a condescending manner to my query when I came across your first form, incomplete.

    Student C, I’m looking at you, who said you were travelling overseas. When I asked when from you replied, January. I sent you a background criminal check form to be completed. You then asked if you had to, given you were travelling to many different countries with only 5 weeks at each. Well, if you’d said that at the start, I’d’ve known. It’s only for 3 months or more, which was stated in my original email. You then hope that your background check for (our country) will be processed soon(!) It may well be, but not through any of your help.

    //rent.

    1. ACA*

      This is so true. I work with outgoing students, and if I already know your name by the time you come in for your exit interview, that is not a good sign.

    2. I'm being totally anonymous too.*

      ARE YOU ME? Did I write this and then get amnesia?

      Student D, I’m looking at you. About once every 2-3 weeks, I get an email from you freaking out about a thing. I reply to you not ten minutes later, telling you to fill out Form X. I DO NOT HEAR FROM YOU AGAIN FOR WEEKS and then you email me again, freaking out about the same thing, and not having read any of what I wrote the last time.

      Student E, I’m looking at you. It is not my job to arrange your entire life. I can get you set up with the right classes. I cannot give you a job, an apartment, or hell, your email password either–call IT for that one.

      1. This is me, being totally anonymous*

        Ah students. You gotta love ’em, right!?

        As for student E, for real?

    3. Cristina in England*

      asked their MSP to email international countries for your background criminal check
      Hahahaha. My MSP used to be Nicola Sturgeon.

      1. Cristina in England*

        (Trying the quoting again!)

        asked their MSP to email international countries for your background criminal check

        Hahahaha. My MSP used to be Nicola Sturgeon.

        1. This is me, being totally anonymous*

          Their MSP ending up writing to Phillip Hammond to get it moved on. Oh vey.

          1. Cb*

            Ooh, more people in Scotland! I have friends working in constituency offices for msps and they get the best questions.

    4. INTP*

      When I was a TA, I had one student I was sure was going to be high maintenance and not full of common sense because by the time class had started she had already emailed me multiple times with IT issues (not particular to me, but to the entire school’s courseware site) and to say that she couldn’t find our book on the publisher’s website when I had already sent an email saying they need to go to the store at X address (2 blocks from campus). Surprisingly, she turned out to be very intelligent and my most dedicated student. She was just a freshman and I guess didn’t have the life experience to search “Teapot University IT help” or know that sometimes you need to go to a brick and mortar store.

      1. This is me, being totally anonymous*

        The majority of students are fine and it’s just the odd few (& they usually make the good stories!). However, this is a post-graduate course they’re taking so have already been to uni and graduated and some of them are returners (30-40’s) and you know – they should have life skills and know a little about how forms/the uni they are coming into (it’s all explained upfront in their interview before getting an offer)/the world works.

    5. Jennifer*

      *applauds*

      Yeah, there are certain people who are always going through our office with drama again and again and again. Especially fun when it’s the ones we’ve actually called police about.

  75. Owl*

    Ok, so I made a silly mistake and requested off next Friday thinking that I was applying for the Saturday that I thought I was off when I was really off on Saturday and working Friday. The Friday off was granted. I later asked a coworker to swap with me, as I still was mixed up about the days I was working.

    Lo and behold, I’m off on Saturday, and the swap never went through. My coworker asked if I still wanted to be off on that Friday. I told her it was a mistake, and was going to tell her that I still wanted to be off on that Friday (because driving where we’re going with someone I don’t trust driving at night is not my cup of tea), but she said that she’s got me on the schedule now, and is happy that we don’t have to call in a sub before I could even finish talking (this is a tendency of hers). BUT she also said that she could probably make it work if I had wanted that Friday off (I do, as it will be my only “vacation” this summer, as I am a new employee with no time off).

    I want to e-mail her and say that I really would like that Friday I had requested off. I have two issues, though: the first is that I will sound wishy-washy on this. The second is that I have now had three three day weekends off in a row. One just because of scheduling luck, and two because of family graduations. I am still fairly new as of December, have never had any problems at work (and I know my manager will tell me if there are). Should I e-mail, or not?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      If this is a retail job, I say no, let it go. Three Fridays in a row is not good. At all.

  76. land of oaks*

    question for the nonprofit managers/fundraising folks:
    Would you hire a person who’s nonprofit background is in program and policy for an Individual Gifts position? And if so, what about their resume or interview would sell you on them?

    I have been mostly in advocacy orgs for most of my career, have lots of program director experience, but my last job ended up being basically a policy analyst (management didn’t really know what they wanted). I am so burned out on policy and feel like my career has stalled out because I never got any opportunities to move up to a more mid-level/advanced position. (I feel like I have the skills to be an ED by now, but have made lots of dumb job choices apparently)

    There is an Individual Gifts position open at a very prestigious arts organization in my city that I am absolutely in love with, have been a patron of. I am sooooo passionate about their programming, and I feel like it would be a great move into an area I would have more career growth opportunities in over the long run. And I have done a lot of networking/partnership building as well as working with Development people as the program person helping them develop fundraising strategies. So, I know I would be really good at building relationships with donors and making asks.

    But I don’t have any direct major gifts experience on my resume at all. Is there even a point applying for this job? And a broader question: what can I do to convince development managers to hire me now or in the future? My dream job would be as a development events planner, but I would also love major gifts/donor management, etc.

    1. Intern Wrangler*

      I don’t know enough about the position. In some large organizations, this could be a very administrative role–using databases to track contacts, drafting letters, maybe some prospecting. On the other hand, it could be a very high level role, with a lot of meeting and schmoozing and trying to move people up the giving pyramid, from growing annual gifts to planned giving. You need to see what you can learn about the job. I would highlight your program experience with experiences like “represented the agency to individual donors.” Hopefully, you have access to a position description which might give you more information about the scope of duties and then you can ways to crosswalk your experience to make it relevant. Good luck!

      1. land of oaks*

        I do know what the position is, I was just trying to keep it short. It is soliciting major donors on the lower level, something like 1,000-20,000 level (can’t remember exactly). That’s why I knew I’d be good at it, because it is not primarily a computer/data support position, I’d be working face-to-face with people, but it’s not planned giving, or other things I don’t have the financial knowledge for.

        But my question is more whether transferrable skills are enough for a manager for a position like this. I feel like I can give several examples of how my skills are transferrable, but what is the bar for the manager. And is there any point trying for a job like this, or should I be aiming more entry-level development jobs because I’m sort of career-switching? How extreme of a career change is it to go from program to development?

        1. misspiggy*

          It will really depend on who else applies – so I say go for it, you make a good case and you have nothing to lose.

        2. Florida*

          Anything that demonstrates that you can persuade people is good. If your advocacy involved lobbying elected officials, that would be attractive. Also, something that demonstrates you can close deals. I’m using that term broadly, so if you convinced the legislator to co-sponsor your bill, that’s closing a deal. If you got the bill passed, that’s even better.

          Also, I would want to know how comfortable you are dealing with strangers. If you find some great prospect in the database, are you will to pick up the phone and call the person without any sort of introduction. If you have experience with that type of thing, stress that.

          If I were hiring a major gift officer, the passion part would be super important. I can teach you how the major gift process works, but I can’t teach you to be passionate about the arts. You can fake the passion as a grantwriter or direct mail copywriter, but it’s harder to fake the passion in person. So I would use that to your advantage. Definitely, mention how much you like their programming and be specific so they know it’s genuine. Tell them that you still have goosebumps from the concert where they played Mahler’s Fifth and the reason you loved it was because the brass section rocked it. (I don’t know what type of arts organization it is, so adjust as necessary.)

          There are an awful lot of major gift officers who never had fundraising experience. They had some sort of sales, PR, advocacy, etc. background, so definitely go for it. Good luck!

  77. Natalie*

    I keep typing this out and than deleting it because I can’t figure out what I’m actually asking.. Anyway, my new boss has an annoying habit of utterly misreading or misunderstanding emails and then flying off the handle about the incorrect conclusion he has jumped to. I’m pretty sure I’m not the problem – I’m not regularly misunderstood by other people I work with, and the part where he gets overly upset is obviously on him, too. But I don’t like him at all, which is making it hard for me to figure out what, if anything, I should do about this. If I start explaining things more/differently, I worry my dislike will bleed through and I’ll be condescending. Just letting him continue to look foolish doesn’t seem like a great plan either, and is probably contributing to my dislike. So… yeah.

    2. fposte*

      Any chance this can be turned into a question? “Boss, I feel like my emails aren’t clear enough to you and that that’s resulted in some misunderstandings. What are some ways that I could make my message clearer? Would you like more info in the subject, for me to limit stuff to bullet points, or anything like that?” I deliberately put in some specific suggestions in case he’s one of those “Just make it clearer!” people, and also because if he chooses one and you follow it he picks up some of the accountability.

      It won’t work against a determined blame-shifter and hothead, but it might be worth a try.

      1. MsM*

        +1. I’d also start adding “If you have any questions or want to talk this out in person, let me know” to the end of all your messages if you’re not already.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      IMO, some people are just always at the ready to snap at someone, and will look for any opportunity to do so–like totally misinterpreting an email or situation. I had an old boss like that. Mine couldn’t be fixed, because he was just a bad, power-hungry person. I wouldn’t bother trying to be clearer.

    4. Diddly*

      Are these long emails that he just glances at and gets the entirely wrong message? If so I’d look at breaking up the text and putting it into bullet points or having a summary sentence at the top which explains the whole email.
      Could also mean he’s dyslexic, or has a similar condition. So breaking it down into as little text as possible might help, and being as clear as possible – short sentences, bullet points, clear wording… Summary line at beginning and end of email?
      Or maybe you should just speak to him first, and say you’ll confirm what you’ve spoken about in an email?

    5. OriginalYup*

      Does he do better with face to face communication? If yes, see if you can subtly shift into having weekly “check in” meetings where you give him verbal updates and lessen the amount of email updates/requests you have to send him.

    6. Natalie*

      (Replying to myself as it’s more of a clarification)

      I think I identified the thread as I was typing replies to some of you – this happens when I have to tell him we can’t do something the way he wants. (I’m in accounting, so part of my job is making sure we conform to our accounting policies. I’m not overstepping at all by not letting him break the rules.) Recent example, if I tell him we can only accrue once Thing X has happened, he’ll reply that Accounting assured him we could do this based on [exactly what I just told him], so could I please work with him?

      So, I probably need to be more deferential to him when I’m telling him he’s wrong, I guess? Argh.

      1. fposte*

        Aha. And ugh, you could certainly try that. And maybe there’s also room to just consider him a two-year-old having a tantrum and wait it out. (Am I remembering that you’re looking to go back to school soon? Will you be staying on there?)

        1. Natalie*

          You mostly remember correctly. :) I’m currently in school, but at night, so still working. I’m also buying a house (like, close in June) so definitely need to be employed.

          Bleh, yes, probably just need to be more deferential and also roll with his tantrums. I knew it, I apparently just needed to say it/hear it.

  78. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    A friend and I are going to a casting call for a major Teapot theater audition/production. What are casting calls typically like? Are they diversity-friendly?

  79. MayDay*

    This might be a stupid question, but if a position says something like “entry level position”, seeking a minimum of less than x years industry, that probably means it’s not worth applying for (or there will be less chance) if one has more years of experience?

    Basically, I just don’t want them to look at my application funny since I have over X years, especially if I see another position that also looks good enough to apply for.

    1. De Minimis*

      Is the other position with the same employer? In that case I’d probably focus on that, but most of the time I say it’s always worth it to at least apply. Let them make the decision.

      1. MayDay*

        Yep, looking at a few jobs from the same employer. This job looks pretty nice, but entry-level throws me off. I guess I could address it in the cover letter possibly!

  80. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Believe it or not, we have never done an internal promotion via internal posting with multiple applicants & interviews before. Although virtually all non entry level positions are filled internally, the right candidate has been clear enough that we haven’t had to formally interview and have multiple people compete for the promotion.

    This time a need came up (adding a level of management to a small department), and there was no clear cut choice. We might promote from within or we might try hiring externally. We put the posting out, had four people from within the department apply, then had a meeting with them to discuss the newly created position (as well as the possibility that external hire might also happen). We gave them four broad questions to answer (like, what are the problems you see in this dept, what would you do to solve them, etc.) and a week to complete it. One candidate dropped out after written assignment was given.

    Interviews are on Tuesday. We’re doing a panel interview (four people on the hiring committee).

    I always have panic attacks before I do something new. We’ve worked with some of these people close to 10 years! The formality of this is strange to me.

    What advice can you give me for — questions to ask, tone, possible pit falls, anything. All of us on the panel believe that Person A thinks the job is his which, honestly, he’s the dark horse, and we’re worried about What Happens Next when he’s not the one chosen.

    Feel free to tell stories of horror if you like. It won’t scare me off. I’m already nervous and if it makes me laugh, that’ll be good.

    1. SerfinUSA*

      It’s tough when someone thinks the job is theirs. I wasn’t in the hiring committee for a recent opening for a management position, but I know each of the internal candidates felt they were the logical choice, and 2 of the 4 left soon after they weren’t chosen. Granted they were generally negative and whiny, while the chosen person (and the front-runner from the start) was/is perfect for the role. The 4th candidate really wasn’t qualified, but is still working here and doesn’t seem able to figure out how to get past her reputation as a non-entity.
      Be prepared to have the unselected people start heading for the door, or at very least complaining to receptive ears. If you have factions in your workplace, this will cause some ripples.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        This should have been funnier.

        j/k, :p

        I think Person A is the only one who would leave or cause an issue, but it will not be pretty. This department doesn’t have much upward mobility or pathways out.

        It’s still possible for him rock us in the interview.

        1. SerfinUSA*

          I did find the post-selection factional gossip funny. As in “wasn’t it a shame how so & so was snubbed by management when she works so hard and was obviously the best choice”. Said by the passive-aggressive whiny-backstabby crew, who oddly-enough, also find themselves “snubbed” by the “cool kids”.
          It was also interesting to see how former coworkers dealt with becoming supervisees.

          I was on another committee that interviewed a temp worker (6 months) for the position when it became permanent. A bit odd. Harder to maintain a poker face in general chit chat. She took the application process seriously though, no wink-wink nudge behavior. The only real off-putting thing was a bit of in-house jargon in her cover letter, but not too egregious.

    2. MsM*

      Would it be a terrible idea to ask what they’ll do if they don’t wind up being selected? I assume they’re savvy enough not to answer “I’ll sulk until I can find something else,” but if you phrase it right, you might get some insight into how they plan to handle setbacks and relationships with their coworkers.

    3. RR*

      In a situation that seems quite similar in a past life, I’ve found it very helpful to probe how candidates might handle the transition from peer to manager — what challenges are they expecting? How might they address them? For us, the responses on that really played a significant role in our decision. We had 4 internal candidates, all of whom were excellent performers, but some were more clearly ready to move into a management role and had given some thought as to what changes that would mean for them.

  81. Oatmeal*

    Does anyone have tips for how not to be bitter when you are SO ready to leave your job? I’m working on finding other work but don’t have anything lined up yet. In the meantime, I am miserable in my current position and having a hard time not letting it show.

    1. Malissa*

      Repeat these words, “Gotta keep my reputation intact.” Over and over and over and one more time on Fridays. Not that I would know anything about this…

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      All I can say is even if the job is making you miserable it might help to think of the cost and damage to your reputation if you leave in a bad manner and don’t carry on doing a good job until you leave. Making it about yourself not them and hopefully that will help your motivation.

      You never know when you might need a reference or meet someone from this work place again in the future.

      1. Oatmeal*

        Thanks. For additional context, I am an Executive Assistant in a non-profit setting and I’ve totally entered into “bitch eating crackers” mode. It went into overdrive this week when my boss (who is thankfully, out of town right now) made a decision that will for sure damage our reputation and make us very unpopular with the community we are supposed to be serving. I was already looking to leave, but now I just have visceral anger stacked on top of that due to this. I am hoping the weekend will help to numb that.

        It is virtually guaranteed that I’ll need a reference and work with these people again frequently in the future, so I appreciate your advice. I haven’t done anything that could damage my reputation, I’m just feeling really down about the impacts of this decision, and what it indicates about how things work at my organization.

        1. Kai*

          I have much the same issues. My job is stable and not all that bad, really, but I’ve been here for way longer than I thought I would be and I’m so.over.it. My work is good and as far as I know, the people I report to have no idea how angry and miserable I am, so that’s good at least. Then I feel better over the weekend, and the misery starts setting back in every Sunday night.

          My EAP offers free counseling, so I recently started going to a therapist, which helps. Maybe that’s an option for you?

          1. Oatmeal*

            Thanks! That’s pretty much it exactly. There are a lot of great benefits to my job (including HUGE flexibility in terms of work hours and when/where I can work from), but I’m just really sick of being someone’s assistant, and really want to get into a role where I can use my own skills/experience/creativity. (And, frankly, I’m feeling a bit ridiculous at 30, with a relevant master’s degree, being someone’s assistant, as I see others fly past me toward their own career goals.)

            I do go to a therapist regularly and have talked to her about these issues. I have some coping strategies which have help (including spending less time in the office – which is totally 100% fine for my company and my job.)

            This week was kind of bad because before this I was thought “this isn’t my ideal role, but I love the work this organizations does and we are truly doing good in the community” and this recent decision just made me feel like “NOPE. We are acting very selfishly and being a bit shady and dishonest, and this won’t do any good in the community.” But I just have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

    3. CrazyCatLady*

      I’m in this situation. These are minor things but I find them a little helpful….

      *Have some pictures of people/things/pets that make you happy.
      *If you have a favorite scent/candle or whatever, keep it on your desk.
      *Make a happy music playlist (if you can). I used to always listen to music that reflected my mood at work, rather than music that would reverse it and this has made a huge difference to me.
      *If you have an office and this wouldn’t cause an issue, close your door for a little bit throughout the day “to focus”.
      *Use your lunch break to go for a walk, do yoga, take a nap, but whatever it is – physically leave the building.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Yes. I’ve had a really rough month at work and leaving a taking a walk really helps keep me sane – it’s not magic, I still got irritated with someone after my walk yesterday, but it does help me to cool off for a bit and reboot.

  82. Cath in Canada*

    Thank you to whoever suggested listening to video music at work! (I think it was on the open thread two weeks ago). I’m not a gamer (unless you count word puzzle games), but the music really does seem to enhance my focus and problem solving – I keep finding myself thinking things like “I WILL MASTER THIS SPREADSHEET!” and “JUST ONE MORE PAGE OF EDITS! ONE MORE!”

    I didn’t know which music I’d like, so I found a couple of podcasts that play a range of video game music: “BGM Video Game Music Podcast” and “KNGI Video Game Music Podcasts”. There’s a real diversity of genres – a lot of stuff that I wouldn’t usually listen to – and I highly recommend trying it!

    I’m still listening to a ton of blues music at work too – the predictable structure of the songs makes it perfect non-distracting background sound for me.

    1. afiendishthingy*

      my productivity is terrible lately so I am going to close the open thread for a bit and check out those podcasts! Thanks!

    2. Lillie Lane*

      Great suggestions! Thanks and thanks to the person that originally posted that.

  83. Anon2Day*

    I think there is an affair going on at my company. Everyday I see this man and woman in the parking garage at my company. She works here (don’t know her marital status), he doesn’t so he is the one who drives to our place. It could be her husband but I doubt. They sit in the back of the car doors closed. I’ve seen them everyday since the beginning of the year at lunch time. I’m curious to ask them, “are you guys having an affair?”

    What mysterious things have you observed at your job that you want answers but can’t ask?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      The guy I see sleeping in his car every morning in the parking garage. I am curious why he doesn’t just sleep a little later at home.

      The person I’m now kinda work-friends with who was bawling in the break room one day, back when I barely knew her. I want to ask what was wrong, but I don’t want to bring up any bad or embarrassing memories.

      1. Gene*

        He may have a really lousy commute route. There was one I had where if I left at X o’clock, I’d get to work 20 minutes early, but if I left at X o’clock +5 minutes, I’d be late. So I’d sit in my car and read.

      2. BRR*

        For the guy, will he have a longer commute if he leaves later? I know for me that if I don’t leave by 8:15, for every additional minute it adds two to my commute.

      3. The Cosmic Avenger*

        It could be the commute. I get in really early, when traffic is really light, and it can get pretty bad in the DC area pretty quickly. If I leave 10 minutes later, I get in 20-25 minutes later.

    2. afiendishthingy*

      what in the heck does the Director do all day? By his report he is very very busy but he seems to have delegated the majority of his responsibilities in our department. Maybe he is a superhero! or a supervillain, yes I can imagine him stroking his white cat and steepling his fingers (he does that a lot) and hatching fiendish schemes to be unhelpful

      …well that just turned into more bitch eating crackers, sorry, been a tough month

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        I actually asked my director this at a Christmas party one year. I didn’t know him all that well but he was a nice guy and I phrased more like asking what’s a typical day like for you / what sort of work do you get involved in.

        1. goneanon*

          I think I probably could ask him. Although it would probably have been better if I’d done that before he possibly overheard me complaining about him yesterday. Also he tends to answer questions with “Well, let me pose another question…” or “Let me play devil’s advocate for a minute…” Sometimes I want my questions answered with an ANSWER

      2. Anony2Day*

        We have one of those directors here, and it’s funny they’ve just hired another one. They don’t seem to do anything. If they do, it’s reconciling some accounts.

      3. Jennifer*

        Heh. Our big boss literally does nothing but go to meetings all day every day. One after the other. (His predecessor actually did a presentation on what he did all day and it boiled down to “I go to this meeting and that meeting and that committee….”) I’m told he’s considered the “ambassador” to our office, but someone else is actually in charge of office management.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          I’m pretty sure ours is in a whole lot of meetings but he’s terrible at them. We’ve been having the same terrible Groundhog Day meeting for a year, it’s called “But how do we DEFINE our teapot making program?” We have it 1-2x a month.

    4. Jennifer*

      There’s one office building that seems to have adopted a cat in their courtyard-it had a house and food and water dishes and blankets and a table protecting the house and a toy….Still has most of that, except the blankets and table have been put away recently. I guess it’s warm enough?

      Another guy seems to be feeding another cat out in the garden area. I’ve seen him out there a few times putting out a saucer.

  84. mel*

    Just how much has the work pool changed? Several years ago, out of desperation, I took a min wage job (food industry) that I really didn’t want and I continued to dislike the entire time. I’ve been applying to jobs sporadically, trying to get my foot in possibly a data entry door, with a cover letter that explains that I’d like to switch industry.

    Well I’m going on my eighth year doing the same work for minimum wage and I’m going crazy. In eight years I had one interview, though I really do only apply sporadically. I’m trying to be “picky” about it – entry level office work is extremely rare, but not even retail managers are calling me. Not even restaurant managers, even though I’ve had a pretty good run at a kitchen.

    Is it because I’m freaking 30? Is it because I’ve been pigeon-holed? Is it because I’m too embarrassed to fill out my Linked In? Is it because I have a fine arts blog (I have also a registered DBA, does that hurt)? Is it because my name is obviously white & female? Is it because my resume wasn’t printed a little sideways and DOESN’T look like it’s been run over by a truck?

    At what point does it seem not-crazy to drop a forever dead end job for something like temp office work? Even though it’s temp? I’m thinking laying in the middle of the street is the best I will ever be able to do.

    / rant

    1. SerfinUSA*

      What part of the country are you in?
      Also a good question on being pigeonholed. It totally sucks and is so hard to reach escape velocity, even in a good job market.

    2. Diddly*

      In terms of temp office work, they usually want experience, when I was fresh out of college and there were no jobs everyone mentioned temp agencies, but they wouldn’t look at my resume as I didn’t have any office experience, I think it’s better now – but now I’ve also worked a lot of jobs including office work so it was easier to find something.
      Are you able maybe to take some classes in software such as Excel? Or accounting like Sage? Or study them online? Can you do some volunteer work within an office. – like one day a week. (Might also help your sanity.) A friend of mine transitioned from a office admin role to an arts admin in a competitive big city by having done front of house volunteering at a local theatre and being involved in local festivals volunteering.

      1. mel*

        Hmm.. Yeah I was contacted by a temp agency once but they didn’t want to talk to me, which makes me wonder why they contacted me in the first place! haha.

        I admit I only looked into continued learning type classes at a local school I’d already attended before; they had classes for beermaking and using Twitter, but mysteriously none for office programs. So weird! I was too nervous about trying other, more “sketchy” colleges, since so many are bogus, but I should probably look again.

        I’m getting so jealous and bitter of my friends who have respectable work with weekends and holidays and pay raises… and here I am, reading the news and listening to what seems like the whole world talking about how people like me are worthless and deserve to live on the street. *cries* Suddenly I wish I could go back in time!

        1. mel*

          OOh I was also super excited about listing myself as a volunteer at the arts council! They never called me even though they seemed really eager, I wonder what went wrong? :( Oh well, tonight I get to collect artwork for them for adjudication so I am excited! They’re cool people.

        2. I'm a Little Teapot*

          Anyone who believes that people who don’t have prestigious/well-paid jobs are “worthless and deserve to live on the street” deserves to be fired and spend the rest of his/her life working fast food. What a disgusting attitude, and it’s especially disgusting that so much of our culture (especially, say, politicians) encourages it.

      2. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        I managed to get hired by a temp agency when my only office experience was a reception job over the summer once. But when I was job searching I was puzzled by that advice too. Do temp jobs to get experience. I was like, uhhh, all the ads for temp jobs seem to want experience too.

    3. Jennifer*

      I think these days, everybody ONLY wants someone that has 100% (or at least 95%) done the job before. They refuse to do training and there are so many people looking that they can find an exact match to their insane list of requirements. If all you’ve been doing is food industry for 8 years, yeah, these days that is probably pigeonholing because you can’t say you’ve been doing admin work already. They don’t care if you CAN do it, they want you to already be doing it.

      It sucks.

    4. Steve G*

      I’m too tired for advice but wanted to commiserate (came here actually looking to make sure I’m not the only one banging their head against the wall with a job search). Curious where you are as well. The work world is changing quickly, and the current state is weird. I keep asking myself the same questions. Am I applying to jobs that are below me without realizing it? Above me without realizing it? Should I delete things from my resume? Should I change my appearance, somehow, even though I look fine/good? Should I go new age and light a motiv candle? Am I asking for too much money, or am I asking for too little, making myself look bad in the process (I’m in NYC so salaries are all over the place, so that is a possibility, I think). Is it because I have a suburban area code, even though I lie in the city (maybe people think I’m lying about living here?)?. IDK but it can drive you mad.

    5. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

      Are you currently working full or part time? If you try temping, you might get sporadic hours, so you may be able to keep a few shifts at your current job too. Some temp jobs only last a day or two, or a couple of weeks, so you might consider keeping a few evening and weekend shifts, or being available to pick up extra shifts on days you don’t have temp work.

  85. Curlicue*

    I just hit the 6-month mark with a new company and I’m beginning to wonder if all companies are disfunctional or I am particularly unlucky. I’m in middle management (technical) in the food manufacturing industry. I have worked for both small (less than 500 employees) and large (10,000 +) employees. I feel like I am constantly managing chaos. Maybe it’s the industry I’m in?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      In in the same boat for a fortune 100 retailer in the 6 months I’ve been there I have seen so much rampant incompetence, and dysfunction I’m amazed the business runs as well as it does no one takes any responsibility for anything.

      There is so much bureaucratic nonsense, making any small change to processes require is an immense amount of sign off. Perfectly workable sensible decent solutions are rsolulty rejected as unworkable when The process would inconvenience the decisionmaker a little but help several of the other departments out massively.

      I’ll spare you the technical details but the IT system designed is so so bad and no one has a grip on what is going on.

      Strangely I actually quite enjoy it, there’s a lot to be doing and the exciting prospect of getting on some projects that will deliver so much value to the business

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      I worked in food manufacturing (but mostly at smaller companies) and it does seem like it’s always chaos and the companies were dysfunctional… but I always attributed it to the size of the company rather than the industry.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would think your arena would be very fast paced, so the chances are you are going to see some crazy stuff. And yeah, it does come with management that you get to see all the problems of a job/work place, so there is that, too. So you have a fast paced arena where you are in a position to see what all the problems are- that’s a double whammy in my opinion.

  86. SerfinUSA*

    Is anyone else pondering a drastic career change/massive pay cut mainly to escape the mother of all toxic jobs?
    My partner makes good money for our area, but the job is tough (911 dispatcher for large college campus), she deals with a lot of jerks the entire shift, never-ending shift work, asshole cop-coworkers, and some really horrific administration.
    But we live in a town where the university is the main employer, so even when other jobs come up that are interesting or a strategic fit, the pay is usually much lower, plus there is intense competition.
    So we’ve been looking at totally going feral, taking a part-time “lifestyle” job to keep some cash flow, while also ramping up our farm production (we have a large laying flock and sell specialty poultry too). That would leave me the main breadwinner, and be a huge 180 from our current life/income. But her job has me at the bitch eating crackers stage, and she’s concerned that she’ll be unemployable if she stays there much longer (over 10 yrs, plus she’s going to be 50 this year).
    Any thoughts?

    1. Graciosa*

      If you and your partner are willing to live with the risks of having one breadwinner instead of two (you don’t mention how secure your current job is, so it may not be much of a risk), you should do it.

      Most people who are moved to make this kind of change after talking through the lifestyle changes and new budget seem to react along the lines of Why-the-***-didn’t-we-do-this-years-ago?!?

      Giving up happiness – or sanity! – for money isn’t usually much of a trade.

      1. Natalie*

        My parents (both self employed) like to say they gave up the illusion of security for the illusion of freedom.

    2. Blamange*

      I did it I took a pay cut but now I want to change again, because I’ve entered a different toxic environment.

      It’s scary at first.

    3. Anon Today*

      I just did this, although not to the same extent as you’re considering. I took a 37% pay cut to come to my current job, and could not be happier. Thank god.

    4. SerfinUSA*

      This summer should be a bit easier in terms of the current job, so we can really work on getting our ducks in a row. I think by the time fall quarter starts we’ll be better situated to make the change. The scary part is what if a likely job happens sooner. And also scary to possibly end up in another crappy job, only with way less pay. I guess at that point the cord is cut though, and it will be even easier to try a diff job, or even try no job at all (besides the farm).
      Luckily my job is stable enough for me to consider it permanent, and it’s actually somewhat enjoyable, so I can plan on being the paycheck/benefits person of the family.

  87. Dr. Pepper Addict*

    I need quick advice. I saw a job today I wanted to apply for (I had applied using this site before). When I logged into their corporate site to apply for the job, the site just said “thank you for applying.” I realized it used all of my old information, including cover letter to apply for this job without letting me update it when I logged in.

    So my question is 1. I have the HR person’s email, would it be inappropriate or make me look bad to email her my updated resume and cover letter explaining what happened? I’ve worked there before so we know each other a little. 2. I can withdraw from the job on this site, but I cannot reapply. Would it be better to create a new profile and reapply that way?

    Would love any advice I can get. The job posting closes soon!

    1. Jem*

      I am horribly prone to #6. I need to learn that my gift for not being able to tolerate useless nonsense will never be appreciated by any workplace.

    2. katamia*

      LOL. INTP (100% P when I took the test for real–not a single J answer), and this definitely fits. 2, 4, and 8 are the big struggles for me.

    3. So Very Anonymous*

      #1 and #6 when together. I can cope with #1, but if there’s too much #6 involved….. urgh.

      #5 is interesting. I’m an extrovert (ENFP) and I get annoyed with too much emphasis on social pleasantries (cf: earlier post about food conversations… wow, do I hate getting stuck in food conversations). Also a pet peeve: people who open meetings with lots of “jokes” about how awful meetings are. a) I’m fine with meetings when they’re productive and b) talking about how much we hate all meetings *isn’t productive*, get on with the actual meeting…

    4. Tris Prior*

      ha, yes. 5, a million times 5! I also test as INFX but this definitely puts me more on the P side.

    5. hermit crab*

      Oh man! I’m about 100% J so I can’t say that article spoke to me, but there’s another one on that site called “The Definition Of Hell For Each Myers-Briggs Personality Type” and it’s absolutely SPOT ON.

      1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        I just found another article on that site titled “Here’s Why You’re Still Single Based On Your Myers-Briggs Personality Type.” Mine said:

        INTJ
        You’re single because: You over-analyze social interactions to the point where it seems easier to just avoid them altogether.

        *ROTFLOL* And that brings me back to my situation up thread…

        2. hermit crab*

          haha fabulous! Apparently there is an endless amount of self-analytical amusement here.

  89. T*

    I never just give a promotion without going through the interview process. One, I think it discourages others from applying who feel it’s going to Jane anyway so why bother. If nothing else it confirms the best internal really is the best and it gives me an opportunity to give feedback to internals who were not selected. And a few times I’ve been a bit surprised, both by candidates who sort of flew under the radar and disappointed in how little a seemingly top candidate prepared.

  90. De Minimis*

    Ah, it’s another one of those days here where EVERYONE is gone who is able to address concerns and complaints. The secretary is here today though, so at least there is someone here who normally deals with customer service issues.
    Otherwise, it’s just two of us back office people and we don’t deal with any of it at all.

    Learned yesterday it’s not just our facility that operates this way, I got a call asking if I could approve something for another facility in our ERP system, their person who normally did it was out and the backup for that person [someone at my workplace] is also out. It turned out I couldn’t help them because it was a different function. Not sure what they ended up doing, ultimately.

    I guess it’s the price of work-life balance, although in a lot of cases it’s that all of the key people are at the same meeting….

  91. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

    I got a new job and I’m super excited about it! It’s with a great organization and I think will take some of the craziness out of my life which I desperately need. I wanted to get something small for my current coworkers but I can’t think of anything. Does anyone has any ideas or things they’ve received in the past that were meaningful?

    1. Graciosa*

      1) General food (bring in something for the office as a gesture of appreciation and a chance to gather and chat).

      2) Write each of your co-workers a note or email and share specifically what you appreciated about working with them. Done well, these are priceless.

      1. land of oaks*

        I am especially a fan of physical notecards for #2. It is easier to keep them when they leave the job in the future. And just more memorable than email.

  92. Elkay*

    Just a general whine as I’ve spent two days in training to do something I hate doing, unfortunately it seems to go hand in hand with my type of job (but is never in the job description). I’m hoping when I see my boss I can explain that I really hate this and please don’t make me do it. Unfortunately I’ve only been here a few months so I didn’t feel like I could say that I didn’t want to do it. It didn’t help that the training was extraordinarily badly organised.

  93. Carrie in Scotland*

    Today has just been ridiculous.

    On top of having no life due to my deadline for my last assignment for my uni course (Monday) and coming home from work to Write All The Words, today was the deadline for about 4 different courses, my co-worker had a day’s holiday, my manager left early afternoon and I had barely a moment to call my own. When I left there was over 100 emails in the shared folder email inbox.

    Anyway, after very nearly a year (as in 2 weeks from it being a year), I actually feel fairly good at doing my job! Someone wanted clarification over their result and at first it looked like gobbly-de-gook to me and then I was like “I know what this means”!

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Yay! It’s great when things click and make sense and you can explain things to other people in the business.

      Good luck with your course work.

    2. goneanon*

      That’s the best feeling, congrats! After 5 years of paraprofessional jobs in my field I’ve been at my first professional job for close to a year and I get so caught up sometimes in the challenging things that I have to make myself notice those “Hey I would have had no clue what to do with this a year ago!” moments.

      Good luck with that last assignment! It’s really tough juggling work and school.

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        Ain’t it just, I swear sometimes it just kicks my ass. I am of course, on here procrastinating…

  94. Blamange*

    What do you do when your manager is sister of her reportee, and there is apparent conflict of interest? Everyone else on the team talks about it but no one knows what to do.

    For example, she thinks he works harder than everyone else, deserves promotions over others, if he does something wrong she let’s it slide, or if he doesn’t do part of his job she let’s it slide, but chastises the rest of the team for it.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I’m in the same position but it’s father/daughter. Do they own the business? In my case the father does so there isn’t much I can do.

      1. Blamange*

        No they don’t, she has been in her first managing role for a month she has worked her way up the company. We had to give our views on how she was doing at her managers meeting for her performance and no one brought it up because her brother was in the room.

        Dilemma D:

    2. fposte*

      Oh, that’s a horrible arrangement. Do the higher-ups know? Is there an org policy about this?

      I was thinking you could have a conversation with her supervisor about the morale issue if you’re not sure, but that does mean the risk that he’ll be reassigned and your manager will be ticked off about it.

      1. Blamange*

        Basically he can’t go hire than the position he’s being promoted towards, unless he transfers or she transfers due to conflict of interest, (so he could never be the Assistant Manager) but I thought that would have been apparent when they gave her the manager’s position. And someone said on the system they saw him adjusting her hours to payroll to more than the AM.

        Yes see what I mean such a conflicting issue. We just can’t go above our manager really because it’s not our businesses culture, to go above our manager. Only our manager can talk to their manager and so on.

      3. afiendishthingy*

        What do you guys think of going over a manager’s head in general with stuff like this? Sorry to hijack, but my director is really unsupportive, absent, and poisoning staff morale, others around his level (one used to have his job but stepped down to spend more time with family, and an AVP who’s in a different reporting hierarchy) are aware of the problem and in agreement with the staff. A coworker told me I should email his boss – whom I’ve met all of once, in a group right after I was hired – about him refusing to attend a meeting where my disgruntled client was contesting a decision I had made and wanted a meeting with me and the director and the director of our partner agency. (Director agreed with my decision but “didn’t see a reason for him to go”; after I sent several follow up emails firmly saying yes, you need to be there to show you support my decision and a VP (not his boss) did the same he finally did go (20 minutes late), but this is just one incident out of a pattern.) I didn’t think emailing my grand-boss was a good career move.

        Also recently Director made a “joke” in a meeting that a coworker (who has been working her ass off to do everything he delegates to her and trying to figure out what he wants her role to be) should be demoted because she wasn’t prepared to run the meeting (he had never told her she was going to, and he himself was only AT the meeting because I reminded him of it 15 minutes after the scheduled start time). The coworker was really hurt and said to me “I feel like someone should send an email to someone.” Is this a your manager sucks and isn’t going to change situation??

        1. afiendishthingy*

          also – is appealing to the sympathetic higher ups to talk to him or talk to his manager an option or also too likely to be seen as backhanded?

          I’m sorry, Blamange, enough about me, how do you feel about me. No. Your situation sounds really crappy and I don’t know how you should handle it. My deepest sympathies :(

          1. fposte*

            In general, you can’t leap levels to say “Boss sucks because he’s mean and lazy.” You can do it if Boss sucks because you can’t get your work done or because he’s breaking the law or a policy that’s near-as. In general, if people at his level don’t think it’s worth telling their bosses about, it’s probably because it’s not.

            1. afiendishthingy*

              Yeah, that makes sense. I just wish he would stop eating those damn crackers.

    3. Amber Rose*

      According to my AAM magic eight ball: Your manager sucks and will not change.

      Job hunt time.

      1. Blamange*

        I thought so, I need to use the company vouchers and discount website a bit more. It’s why I am a bit reluctant to leave. Sad I know.

  95. Not A Real Adult*

    I need some quick advice… People want me to make decisions about things and I have no idea what to do. I’m graduating college next semester and have been interning at a great company for more than a year. They’ve made me a full-time offer that as far as I can tell is pretty good – excellent salary, good amount of PTO, good benefits (I think – how do you know if health insurance is good??) except for no 401k matching. However, I’m in the process of applying/interviewing to a few other places. I feel that I’m at a place in my life/career where the appropriate thing for me to do is see what’s out there and get practice interviewing, and I honestly also would like to work with some more women. This current place is all men except for me which is not super unusual for the field, but it’s reasonable to have more like 20% instead of like, 3% women in an office. However, it is a great environment and I have been given a lot of responsibility and opportunities to develop my skills. I am quite happy working here overall.

    So that’s the surrounding context. My problem is that the offer from my current company expires Wednesday. The manager handling it with me has emphasized that if I sign it, it won’t be legally binding and is more of an expressed intent to probably join full-time. He knows I’m interviewing some other places, and has expressed support of that and offered to answer any questions I have from an experienced point of view. I really have no idea who else I’ll get offers from at this point (definitely will manage to round up a few others, but the timeline for that is likely around a month from now). He wants me to sign it (in a very supportive, not pressuring way, but I still feel totally stressed out), and obviously it’s in his & the company’s interest for me to do so. So basically.. is it ACTUALLY okay for me to sign it and then if I run into a role that I’m head-over-heels for, take that offer and back out of this one?

    1. fposte*

      Would you be willing to state the field? I think it’s not true across the board but there may be field norms at play here that are important.

      1. Not A Real Adult*

        Sure! It’s a midsize tech company, I specifically am a software developer.

    2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      As long as you have it in writing that it’s OK to back out later, I’d say it’s fine. And honestly, if you know from the inside that you like the company, and it’s work you like doing and in your field… I feel weird saying it because it’s like the opposite of what I’d normally tell anyone, but I think you should seriously consider taking it. Diversity hiring is something you can encourage from the inside, and the advantage of both knowing and liking the place is huge. You might find another role that sounds perfect, but it’s still riskier; you might hate your boss, your co-workers, the commute, whatever. I’m not saying you shouldn’t keep looking (and, assuming your current company is acting in good faith, it doesn’t sound like they are either), but it’s hard out there, and unless you know you’re really, really likely to get more offers, I’d be really worried about the prospect of giving up a great thing for an unknown!

      1. Not A Real Adult*

        You are absolutely right about any other role being inherently riskier, nothing I get from recruiters/interviewers trying to sell me on a job will be anything as accurate as what I know about my company from working there already. I feel like I probably don’t appreciate how lucky I am to not have anything to complain about, lacking previous experiences at other workplaces (besides one, which I had lots of things to complain about but pretty much all of them were because it was a big public institution). I’m also afraid that I’ll just be taking the job because it’s known and comfortable instead of challenging myself, but it isn’t like the work I do now isn’t challenging.

    3. Job-Hunt Newbie*

      Is there any way they can add wording in to the offer that it’s not binding, and is tentative? I don’t have any experience in your field, but I would probably see if it’s possible to have that added in as well, since it sounds like you had a verbal conversation about that portion.

      1. Not A Real Adult*

        My state is at-will, and the offer letter does note that. So I think legally speaking it definitely isn’t binding, it’s more of a social/cultural sort of thing I have concerns about.

        1. fposte*

          49 states are at will; I don’t think the issue is whether the offer is legally binding (it’s not likely to be worth pursuing even if it were) so much as whether it’s the custom that it’s binding and backing out will burn your industry bridge to smithereens.

          1. Not A Real Adult*

            Really? Wow, I don’t know why I thought it was more like half. Yeah, I suppose I have it in writing that it isn’t binding in messages from my manager. Do you think it’s important that it gets moved to the letter itself? I’m leaning towards talking to him about it this afternoon. I do think the bridge being burned to smithereens is unlikely.. more like maybe a bit chipped.

    4. Graciosa*

      I would normally have said no, you can’t accept an offer and back out before starting. I have had an individual do that for a professional role, and he will never be hired – even for policing up the filter tips – at our Fortune 100 company.

      An offer won’t ever be “legally binding” in the sense that you would likely be forced to work for the company (even if we hadn’t abolished slavery, I don’t want to employ anyone who doesn’t want to be there), but that doesn’t mean I don’t take it seriously. When an offer is accepted, I am expecting that individual to show up for work – and releasing other candidates for the position. “Oops, I changed my mind” doesn’t do it for me. Make up your mind before you make the commitment.

      The only thing that sways me on this is your manager telling you differently. If he would be okay with your signing and then backing out and knows that this is a real possibility, that’s the decisive factor in my mind. But the two of you need to be absolutely on the same page about this – anything less is going to be a huge problem for the reasons I described above.

      Almost separately, I think you should take it. It sounds like you have a very good and understanding boss, and an excellent offer at a great company. That’s hard to top.

      It may be your boss is able to be so understanding because he already knows what you have yet to realize.

      Good luck.

      1. Not A Real Adult*

        Funny, we actually had a candidate for a different role accept a job and back out a year ago, and we offered it to him again! He backed out a week before starting. You guys have the right policy there. I haven’t heard the phrase ‘policing up the filter tips’ before though – is that a industry specific janitorial job of some sort?

        I agree that the real problem is the expectations that (rightly) arise from a signed offer letter, not whether it’s legally binding. I think that I’ll talk to my manager about it this afternoon to verify that we’re on the same page. I just want to make sure that before I really am sure where I’ll go, the entire department doesn’t have the impression I’m definitely on board. I am not too worried about them sacrificing hiring another programmer to hire me, since I’ll be able to let them know if I won’t stay a good four months before the start date.

        I know it really is hard to top, both of my managers are good people and professionals and it’s an excellent job. I feel guilty not immediately and enthusiastically committing, but I do want to make the best possible choice at the beginning of my real, non-intern career. I’m in a good position in terms skills/experience/education, but the industry changes fast and in five years it might not be as employee-friendly.

        1. Graciosa*

          “Policing up the filter tips” is a very, very old reference (think WWII era) to one of the less popular details you could be assigned in military service – picking up all the filter tips left by all the smokers. This was a few generations ago when smoking was not only legal, but encouraged – however this particular detail was pretty close to the bottom of the barrel as a duty.

          I came across it in a Tom Lehrer song (he’s better known for the “Elements” song if you’re a bit of a science geek). This line came from “It Makes a Fellow Proud to Be a Soldier.”

    5. BRR*

      Accepting an offer then backing out can burn bridges at that company and potentially in your industry (I’m not sure about tech). I’m not sure you should discuss with your manager about accepting from them and then later accepting a different position. Saying it’s a great environment is making me think you should take it.

      You know if health insurance is good depending on how much your premiums are AND what it covers. Also with no 401k matching, think about how much of your paycheck you’ll need to put away for retirement because it will be more.

      Demographics of an office change. I completely get having a preference but the next ten hires might be women. You might start at a job and all the women leave.

  96. Ella*

    So last year, I interviewed for a job that I was solidly qualified for. I didn’t get it, but the interviewer was nice enough to send me some feedback for a skill I could work on. I spent the last year working on this skill (in a way that is documentable). The same job came up again, and I re-applied, mentioning in my cover letter that I interviewed last year and since then have been working on the skill that they gave me feedback on last time. I just got an email this morning that they’re not even bringing me in for an interview.

    This is very discouraging.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, sorry, Ella; that hurts. Please do remember that it really isn’t likely to be personal, though; it’s a whole different pool this time and maybe even a different hiring manager.

      2. Ella*

        That’s true. I’ll just keep trying, though maybe not at that district for awhile.

    2. Joey*

      Take that as a sign that the way or amount of time you worked on that skill wasn’t very compelling.

      1. Ella*

        I’m open to suggestions. I work in a public library (in an entry role that doesn’t interact with the public very much). I’ve also had lots of customer service experience in other jobs, mostly retail. The feedback that I got was that they were looking for someone with more library-specific customer service experience (there were other qualifications too, but I meet all those, no problem). So for the past year I’ve been volunteering at the customer service desk at the library for 8-12 hours a month, doing library customer service (I’m not allowed to look at customer accounts, because I’m a volunteer, but I can help with directional questions, policy questions, computer questions, etc). So, y’know…I’m doing precisely what they advised me to do. And the volunteer coordinator is one of my references.

        1. fposte*

          They may have been comparing it to people who’d been doing it professionally, and doing it for several years. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking they really said “If you had X, we’d hire you.”

          1. Ella*

            Yeah. One of the problems with public libraries is that for jobs that I’m qualified for (or jobs that are the next natural step up in the library career ladder), there’s always somebody not just more qualified than me, but overqualified for that position. So besides me being a good fit for a job, the manager in question has to be up for training a person up a bit, not just dropping someone into the job who’s already been doing it for 5+ years.

            1. BRR*

              As soon as you said library I thought that might be a big part of it. The library field is one of the most competitive at the moment. I’m sorry that you didn’t called for an interview. Certain occupations are tough.

        2. Joey*

          dont be afraid to apply to other libraries or other non customer facing positions. Are there positions doing processing of new items. The more you learn how the system works the more valuable you become helping customers with that system.

          1. ella*

            Yeah, I’m trying that too. I’m trying to not apply to any one place too much (luckily there’s about half a dozen library districts in my general area), but if a job is full time, pays more than I earn now, sounds interesting, and I’m qualified, I go for it. Part of the problem is that a lot of cataloging positions prefer someone with either an MLS or cataloging experience; and a lot of districts outsource their processing of new items these days, so those jobs don’t come up nearly as much.

        3. IndianSummer*

          I am sorry you did not get the position. That always stings a little bit. You did the right thing by volunteering to get more experience!

          I used to be in the library profession. When I went to library school, they made a point to say – All the librarians are retiring! This is a great time to join the field! I am not sure whether they are still using that line in library schools, but basically, that did not happen. I still live in the city where I went to school for librarianship, and the market is hugely oversaturated.

          That is to say that there were probably quite a lot of suitable candidates for the position. Try not to take it personally. :)

          1. ella*

            Yeah this is one of the big reasons why I’m not haring to go get my MLS (I have an unrelated bachelor’s), unless i can get it for free. My district still hires reference librarians, but my branch hired one recently, and we had 17 applicants–all internal (that is, people who already work for the district). We hired somebody who was already a librarian at another branch. I just need to get out of entry level so much, so I can start specializing (like, do I want to teach classes, organize programs, etc) without having to go so far as to getting a master’s.

  97. CarrieT*

    How can I keep a remote, unpaid intern engaged?

    Every year my government agency participates in an internship program that allows current or recent students to work with us on various projects. The students apply for the projects and we get to interview and select our preferred interns. The trouble is that, in most cases, we never meet these interns in person, and they are working remotely from other states. They are supposed to put in about 5-10 hours a week. Every year, the internships start off strong, but inevitably dwindle to nothing after a couple of months.

    So:
    1) What kind of tasks can be both rewarding to young, remote interns and useful to my team?
    2) How do I keep the interns interested and engaged, when they are busy students and aren’t getting paid a dime to work with us?

    1. Diddly*

      Kind of depends what work you do… But also what they want in future and or what interests them. Maybe start by Skyping/emailing them and asking what their future plans are and how this internship will fit in to this. You should ask them to be candid (otherwise they’ll say what they think you want to hear) as they’ve already got the position and you’re hoping to make the internship relevant and rewarding for them.
      I’d just make sure they’re engaged and can see how this can help them in the future or develop their interests – you should probably check-in with them regularly as well. It’s really hard to be motivated when you’re neither held accountable and nobody checks or appears to care what you do.

    2. fposte*

      I’ll be interested to hear what people say, since working remotely seems to remove the point of being an intern at all (I know it’s not unheard of; I just never know how it works). Can they at least attend some meetings virtually or get some connections with each other?

    3. Joey*

      Unpaid, working remotely and there to learn. That sounds like a recipe for disaster or at best mediocrity.

      1. fposte*

        I was thinking that really they’re not interns, they’re volunteers with a resume bump.

        1. CarrieT*

          Yes, this is basically what it amounts to. :-/ I do want to serve as a useful mentor to the student(s) that I select. But the program is inherently structured not to be engaging.

    4. Amethyst*

      I think regular feedback would be key to keep them engaged. Even just a weekly check-in via email. Definitely let them know when you notice that they’ve accomplished something. If they’re never told what they’re doing well or badly they will probably start to lose interest, as it may not seem like anything they’re doing is real work (vs. busywork).

      1. Joey*

        Think about it though.

        How engaged can you be if you’re producing work for free and not around anyone to learn which is the whole point of an internship.

    5. Graciosa*

      There are a lot of good suggestions already, but I would also focus on the work.

      Are they getting interesting work rather than minor administrivia? Do the interns *understand* how important their work is, and how it fits into the overall picture at your company? I still find it makes a difference even with experienced professionals to know *why* what they’re doing actually matters.

      Most of our interns work on a project, and present about it at the end of the internship to a fairly significant (VP) audience. The work is something that can be claimed as an accomplishment, and requires interfacing with a lot of other professionals. The presentation gives them a chance to practice those skills, and also connect to senior people in the company.

      Help them stay interested and engaged by giving them interesting and engaging work.

    6. Elkay*

      I’d be interested for Alison’s take on this because she had an intern work on AAM a couple of years ago.

  98. Sunny*

    My office has just moved from a large area with everyone having their own offices to a shared workspace that is a pretty tight fit. We will be in very close working proximity. I generally get agitated easily with noises and being close to others.

    Has anyone gone through this that can teach me how to cope? Any best practices?

    1. Not A Real Adult*

      Active noise canceling over-ear headphones. See if you can get them reimbursed.

      Also – does your new office have any sorts of secondary work areas? A corner/nook with couches, patio furniture outdoors? Knowing you can go spend some time in a different spot can help when things get too overwhelming.

    2. Natalie*

      Ugh, I feel your pain. I went from a shared office (with a co-worker who was in the field half the time) to literally the middle of the room of a shared office. And my work does benefit even a teeny bit from being “collaborative” – I just have bosses that would rather shout across the room than use IM.

      Headphones are your friends. I listen to music or, if I’m doing something that doesn’t require full concentration, podcasts. I’ve made myself be super responsive by email so everyone knows they can get a response from me super fast even if I’m wearing headphones. And if I’m truly working on a project that requires not being interrupted, I block the way into my cube with a polite sign about how slammed I am this second.

      That said, I seriously hate this type of environment and it’s something I’ll be screening for in my next position.

  99. Adjunct Gal*

    I’m feeling so torn. I want out of my position, which you can deduce from my name, because I’m tired of the limited income and growth potential at my job, but at the same time, the flexibility I have is wonderful. My 6 year old was home all week from school because she’s been sick, and if my husband and I had had “normal” 9-5 jobs, that would have been really tricky. But my semester’s over and it was no problem to be home with her.

    But yesterday I got an email that because of all the new full time faculty hires, my current office space is not available to us, and we might not get any other space for the fall, but they’re “trying.” I also applied for unemployment because this is the first summer I’ve had no work (not by choice), and that’s in danger, now, too, because I’m apparently double dipping like some public school teachers have done in the past when they’re on a wink wink nudge nudge “furlough.” But I have no actual contract that says I have a job, just emails. My husband is waiting for his oral offer to materialize into actual paperwork, so wouldn’t I be in similar territory?

    Sigh, anyway, I am doing my due diligence by applying for jobs. Any thoughts for me from the AAM crowd?

    1. BRR*

      Somebody on inside higher ed posted about unemployment and basically they had to wage a huge war with the unemployment office to get it. It basically came down to, “then show me where I have guaranteed employment”

      As the spouse of an aspiring academic I think it comes down to this: first you need to decide if you’re happy adjuncting/are able to get by adjuncting. You don’t seem sold on leaving, but I’m going to tell you that you should assume your working conditions as an adjunct will not get better. If you don’t want to/aren’t able to be an adjunct you can continue to apply to tenured positions if that’s what you’re doing but there’s generally a 5-year window where you’re an attractive candidate (not a hard and fast rule but it’s a guideline).

      Some alternatives are looking at higher ed admin positions, private schools, public schools (some states have an alternative for accreditation), and there are others depending on your subject. My husband is in the humanities so he has applied for jobs that focus on research, writing, and editing.

      1. Adjunct Gal*

        Yeah, I’m looking at the higher ed staff, editing, and administrative assistant type positions because I do not have a PhD, and even if I did, I’m in a field with extremely slim numbers of openings. Silly me for thinking I’ll be a head in the academic clouds professor.

        I just applied for a faculty assistant position. Who wouldn’t want someone who’s been both an admin and a prof? Not that employer, apparently. I got a rejection letter 6 hours after I sent in my application.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      As an adjunct, you are kind of like a seasonal worker. You have a contract for a semester (or academic year), and then you don’t (are you on contract for this coming fall?). I am not an employment lawyer, but I thought that those who had seasonal employment are sometimes eligible. I would guess that’s up to your individual state (I’m assuming you’re in the U.S.). If you don’t get info here, perhaps pose your question to employment lawyer Donna Ballman at her blog, “screw you guys, I’m going home”?

  100. S*

    My old job has remote offices, one of which is located in my current city (I used to work out of HQ when I lived in HQ City). I’m still close to former coworkers, so I had an informal lunch yesterday with one of them.

    I left my old job because I could see some red flags I didn’t like the look of, and because I wanted to relocate and the transfer option wasn’t available. My friend said that he’s noticing red flags now too and plans on job-searching in the later half of the year. It makes me sad, because I think that Old Job has great people (these are some of the best, smartest people I know) and a supportive culture and I still think that it’s a great place to work and get started on your career path, but it’s the pace of the work and the management styles that make it difficult to not burn out.

  101. Owl*

    Just got news that the event I’m running next week has 60 parents registered. Usual registration is 5-25. 60 is HUGE!

    Now my fingers are crossed that a room will be prepared for it. I mean, 60, wow. I’m used to giving presentations to large groups (up to 1000 kids this past week alone), but wow. Wow. Wow. WOW. Just had to mention this. I think it’s saying something about our community.

    1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

      1,000 students is easy.
      60 parents is like the equivilant of 5,000 students (not scientifically proven, but based on my own experiences). I love parents in presentations because they ask so many questions and are so engaged. Enjoy yourself, and hope it goes well!

      1. Owl*

        I used to give tours in a museum. The most difficult tours were the ones with the smallest children (but the most fun), the pre-teens (hormones!), and the

        Now here’s the problem. We don’t have the *space* for the program. It somehow never made it to the calendar and I have asked more than once about getting this registered for space (I am untrained in it), but it never got there and ARGH another program! I was given the go-ahead to confirm this event months ago (in writing, too). We had a date and everything. And it never got onto the calendar and now I have to figure out what to do.

        1. Owl*

          I meant to say that the hardest tours were the professionals who were there because they were “there”, not for interest.

    2. Steve G*

      Awesome! When I used to teach English as a Second Language, it was always a high when more students came to the voluntary or semi-voluntary classes, a great feeling!

  102. Job-Hunt Newbie*

    So, after a second interview a few weeks back, I’ve been notified I am still under consideration, and my references are being checked! I know this isn’t a guarantee, but at least it gives me some ease of mind that I am a top contender for this position either by myself, or against a small pool of candidates. My interview went very well; well in the sense that I was not nervous, I got to plug a lot of my skills/experiences that would be beneficial to the role, and greatly enjoyed the people I met, and what I learned further about the role. Whatever the outcome is, it was a great experience for me!

    I’ve been job hunting for a very long time, and it’s hard to not get hopeful in this scenario. I’m very good at clicking “submit” and then washing my hands of an application afterwards and letting whatever happens to happen. However, this is a position I really want, and it’s hard to keep up that momentum now that I’ve made it to one of the final steps in their consideration of a candidate. I’m leaving my current position soon as my contract will be done, so the pressure is on to have a job secured.

    How do you keep yourself in that “don’t get your hopes up, nothing’s guaranteed until you have an offer” mindset? If I am not made an offer, life goes on. But the waiting game and being slightly optimistic is hard!

    1. Overthinking Anon*

      This was me the past two weekends! I can’t say I was entirely successfully, but look at the open thread from two weeks ago where someone made the amusing suggestion to picture the Yip Yip aliens saying nope nope nope whenever I got wrapped up in thinking about it. I also picked a few people who I didn’t mind sharing bad news with (if it didn’t work out) and complained to them. There were a few other suggestions in the same thread.

      Good luck!

      1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

        Thank you! Think I’m definitely going to do the alien suggestion, haha. It’ll make me laugh and remind me to stop thinking about it (and since it’s the weekend, it’s a lot easier to do that, since I know I would only hear back M-F). I’ll defintely check out the thread from the beginning of the month. Thanks!

  103. Nethwen*

    For managers that give cards for deaths in employees’ families or give lunch as staff appreciation, if there is no policy or precedent, how do you defend using the department budget for this? Which line item would this fall under? Petty cash? Professional development? Office supplies?

    3. Graciosa*

      Ask your finance person where these go – they should be accounted for consistently across all departments in your company. I can believe there’s no policy, but I have a hard time imagining there’s no precedent and would defer to finance for what it is.

      If you have only the options listed above, I would go with petty cash unless it was lunch for a training session which I would bundle in professional development.

      I have seen food for team events covered under business meals (the same category used for business travel meals) but I believe there’s an accounting reason why you want to have good documentation of the business purpose and attendees. Again, finance should be able to help with this.

      My current company has a separate category for team building events for employees, but it’s the first time I’ve seen it. I think it was set up this way as part of the initiative (to highlight the need for more events and acceptability of holding them) rather than because finance wasn’t fine with the old system.

  104. Media Maven*

    Hi! Would love some advice from amazing AMA readers…

    A few months ago I had gone through an interview process and was told that I was their #1 choice! The problem was that the company underwent some personnel changes during the time that I was interviewing and the hiring manager ultimately told me that she was no longer ready to hire because she needed to re-assess the needs and structure of the department. She was very kind about it and encouraged me to stay in touch, but she really didn’t have a timeline and there certainly wasn’t a guarantee that there would be anything available.

    I have continued to look for other jobs, but nothing has panned out yet. I’d like to reach back out to her just to be sure that I stay on her radar, but I’m not sure what my note should say — should I directly address the question of whether or not she foresees there being a position available? Congratulate her on a new product release that I saw news about? Something else? Would love to hear opinions/advice on ways others have kept in touch with prospective employers successfully! Thanks :)

    2. AnotherFed*

      Since it’s been a few months, it seems like it’d be ok to reach out to her via email or LinkedIn and ask. I’d be cautious about offering congratulations unless you’re sure that the product release is relevant to the part of the organization she’s in or you remember her talking about it during the interview process. If you don’t hear back, though, don’t try again.

  106. Anon Today*

    I don’t understand the idea of giving financial gifts to your nonprofit employer.

    I mean, I understand why the nonprofit makes the ask – they know you’re interested in/committed to the mission, they know that reporting high employee giving rates is attractive to some others funders. But why would I ever do that? I negotiated my salary up from what they offered me because I wanted them to give me more money; my committed to the mission did not factor into that decision. And frankly, if I were going to give I would want it to be to my program specifically (which pays for all of its own administrative and overhead costs), not the organization generally. Using my salary, which my program pays, to donate to the nonprofit at large is like taking money out of my program’s budget to fund another program. Nope, not interested.

    On the other hand, I give $1,000 annually to each of my former nonprofit employers. I DO believe in the mission, and once I’m not there I’m happy to keep contributing in the ways I can.

    1. Libretta*

      This is one of the things I hate about working for non-profits. It is also a good way for non-profits to burn out their employees. Showing up and doing your job as well as you can is never enough. You have to accept a lower rate of pay with longer hours, you have to give money, you have to volunteer for extra events, you have to post things on your social media accounts, and if you don’t – you obviously are not committed to The Cause. I am fine with them asking, once. But the amount of pressure that sometimes comes along with the ask is terrible and really has made me not want to work for non profit organizations.

      1. Intern Wrangler*

        I think this is a generalization. I work for a non profit. We do not directly solicit our employees (although we run a United Way campaign every year). We pay market rates. We abide by all labor laws, so we do not allow our employees to volunteer. Well, they help with events, but they use paid time and they get to volunteer if they want or don’t want to do it. We also have more flexibility in scheduling. We offer benefits other organizations don’t, like free clinical supervision. I’m sorry you’ve had negative experiences, but please don’t assume the whole sector is like this.

    2. BRR*

      I feel very fortunate that we don’t have an employee campaign where I work. My last organization did. I just always think, “Haven’t I given enough?”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I said that I gave 200% in effort every day. That was my donation. It was up to the company to figure out how to direct my efforts to their best benefit. (Some of my coworkers qualified for food stamps.)

  107. MH*

    Hi all. This November marks the fifth year of being underemployed and no matter what I’ve done since that time in my job search – getting more schooling, networking, taking on a ton of freelance work – I can’t get a staff position. I work in media/communications and I’ve brushed up on my social media skills, write everything from blog posts to press releases and articles, made new business contacts, and put myself out there. I get at least one interview or so a month, but I still don’t know what I’m doing wrong. Any suggestions?

    1. Elkay*

      Do you ever ask for feedback from your interviews? Maybe see if you can get a friend to roll play interviews with you and see if there’s something you’re doing that affects how you come across.

      1. MH*

        I’ve gotten it from recruiters but I wasn’t sure if companies were allowed to do it.

    3. Steve G*

      No advice, but commiseration. I’ve going into month 4 of unemployment. I have become a wicked VBA programmer (I’ve dabbled in it for years but never had time to really go deep with a big project) + learned Access + SQL in addition to the QuickBooks, advanced Excel, Salesforce, etc. I already had…..and I don’t see any difference in my getting interviews. It is very frustrating. I’m wondering if it has to do with other job applicants inflating their qualifications so we all look the same on paper? I don’t know. I would love to figure many things about job searching out because none of it makes sense to me.

  108. Libretta*

    Thoughts on how to deal with professional people in their 30’s who don’t know how to use basic MS Office software? A person, with whom I had a meeting first thing in the morning today, emailed me yesterday (on my regularly scheduled day off) to change the meeting to later in the day. The email was ‘are you free after 1pm?’ I am not, and this information is available on my calendar. To email me and wait for a response means the first-thing meeting is up in the air for both of us, unless I respond ON MY DAY OFF. I am a manager, but not her manager. How to respond in a way that isn’t condescending? I tried ‘check my calendar and reschedule,’ but the answer is more questions about my schedule, and she clearly does not know how to use the scheduling functions.

    At this stage in the game, it is (to me) totally unacceptable to fall back on ‘I don’t know how to check your calendar,’ and expect that that means I would be happy to spend the day (my day off!) emailing back and forth to find a time that works. Every job I have had in the last 10 years uses MS Outlook, and I would assume that for at least the next 10-15 years, if not my entire career, I will need to use it. On my team, I have required that everyone know how to use the calendar function, to avoid time-wasting emails trying to find a good slot for a meeting. I don’t care if you are a Mac person or hate computers, this is still something that you need to be able to use. With someone straight out of school – I will show a couple of basic things to, but not for people who have been working for a decade or more.

    1. E*

      I use Outlook calendar for everything, but I’m not able to see other folks’ calendars unless IT sets that up for each person’s calendar. Maybe here it’s an odd set-up, I don’t know. However, I’d expect anyone to at least send a proposed calendar invite and then let you decline and propose a new time.

      1. Libretta*

        I can see people’s availability unless they have hidden it. I cannot see what the individual appointments are, just whether they are busy, available, or out of office.

      2. Karowen*

        Not even when you’re in the process of scheduling a meeting? I can’t see the exact information but I can see availability for literally everyone in my company. And in that scenario it’s not that difficult to create a meeting, check availability and schedule. If you feel obliged to email first, you can still start the meeting process to see availability.

        1. Vanishing Girl*

          It’s not difficult, but some places they may not schedule something in Outlook until they get a response from you first saying it’s ok. This is how all my previous workplaces did it and I’m now in a place where people just drop things on your calendar.

          We frequently tell each other that our calendars are up to date, so please send us a meeting invitation and we’ll accept. (And Outlook is available for Mac and works just about the same way, I used to use it on one.)

          It sounds like this person really doesn’t understand Outlook features, but also may feel forward or rude if they just send a meeting invitation without agreeing on it first. I am still getting over that feeling myself.

    2. fposte*

      My office doesn’t use an official shared Outlook calendar, just for a data point. I don’t even run Outlook for anything. We Doodle poll a lot.

      However, if you’re sure it’s the expectation in your office (not sure it is, since you had to require it of your team), I think it’s kosher to say “We just check schedules via Outlook around here, since it saves so much time; I’m afraid I won’t be able to email on this today as I’m out.”

    3. Graciosa*

      My first thought is that you don’t enable them.

      Sorry, I’m out of the office today, but I left my calendar up to date. If you don’t know how to schedule a meeting, you might want to ask your manager for assistance.

      Or even, Jane [her manager], Idiot Employee is having some difficulty figuring out how to check my availability in Outlook, and unfortunately I’m out of the office today. Could you help her with this? I hate to have everything held up until my return. Thanks for the help – Libretta.

      This is presuming you can get away with claiming to only check email on another device rather than logging into Outlook from a full computer.

      If you can’t, I’d be tempted to ignore her email entirely. Stop making it easier for her to force you to do her work so she can avoid learning a basic office program.

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Could you set up an auto-response? Or– maybe an Outlook Genius can weigh in– a targeted auto-response that will only respond to her when you’re off?

    5. Reg. commenter but anon for this*

      No one in my husband’s office knows that they can check each other’s calendars. My husband has found out who is interviewing for internal positions, who will be on (his own internal) interview panels, etc, just by checking their calendars. He has found out a lot this way. He works in higher ed with all PhDs, so I’m sure that explains the incompetence with the basics!! (He and I have PhDs too but we also have real world office experience)

    6. College Career Counselor*

      A lot of times, people put things on their calendar as reminders (call the vet) which will only take 5 minutes, but which will cause a half hour to be unavailable. Some people block chunks of their calendar for projects but still have some flexibility. It could be that this person was going straight to the source to see what was actually available. It could also be that this person is not acclimated to the organizational norm that you check people’s outlook calendar for their availability.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Right, all of this makes sense to me, and the culture in my office would be to ask someone first if their calendar was up to date, or if a specific time was better than others (we drive around a lot, so if I’ve got two site visits in a day closer to my home than to the office I’m probably working from home the rest of the day which I wouldn’t usually indicate on the calendar). But if someone had already told me to check their calendar and schedule it I would just do that, I would definitely find the follow up emails annoying. They do need to learn, but I think it is also necessary to be mindful of your office culture on this.

      2. Libretta*

        You can add reminders without blocking up the chunk of time. You just select that your time is ‘available’ during the appointment.

    7. MaryMary*

      I’m in my mid 30s, and I’ve used a pre-2000s calendaring system, Lotus Notes, and Outlook. Nons of them are that different from each other or difficult to use.

      When I get questions about my availability when someone could clearly check Outlook, I just reply, “Oh, my calendar is always up to date, see when I’m available.” Then it’s on the scheduler to figure it out or fess up that they don’t know how to use Outlook.

  109. Hattie McDoogal*

    These threads move so fast. This is already pretty far down, but a situation just came up and I need some advice, so I’ll try anyway:

    My co-worker just quit unexpectedly, with a day’s notice. All of her work is going to fall to me. My boss might end up hiring someone to ultimately replace her (or to take over some of my existing duties, I don’t know) but for the short term I’ll be doing her job as well as mine. I get paid peanuts and I’d like to ask for more, if I handle the increased workload okay, but I’m also planning on going back to school part-time in September and will need to ask my boss for a flexible schedule once I know what days/times I’ll have class — I’ll know this some time in July. Would it be enormously presumptuous of me to ask for a raise when I know that I’ll be asking him another big favour so soon after? Or should I just leave it alone, and, if I have to, use it as leverage when asking for a flexible schedule in a few months?

    1. fposte*

      The last one. In general, a temporary bump in responsibilities is part of the job. Usually I’d say that if temporary starts to become permanent–if after, say, two months there’s been no move to start hiring–then it’s kosher to bring up the conversation that this seems to be de facto permanent and you’d like to discuss what that means for your pay and title. However, that’s tough to do at the same time you’re asking for a flexible schedule–but that’s not a reason you should feel obliged to keep doing it, either.

      1. Dang*

        Oh… oops. I missed the part that the bump in responsibilities would be temporary. In that case, I agree. Leverage all the way.

    2. Dang*

      Not at all. If your workload has changed significantly, you are within your rights to 1) ask for more help and/or 2) ask for pay that reflects your new responsibilities.

    3. Graciosa*

      You don’t ask for permanent raises based on temporary work loads. You ask for bonuses after the temporary situation has passed.

      If you are underpaid for your regular work, you can (and should) ask for a raise, just not based on the temporary work load.

      I do think you should have a frank conversation with your boss – both about your regular pay, and your anticipated desire for a flexible work schedule. You don’t know what hoops he might have to jump through for the latter, and a few months notice may not be all that much on the scheduling matter (or he may be able to decide this himself – he’s the one who will know that).

      However, I don’t like the idea – and this is a bit of a quibble on my part – that you regard asking for a raise as a favor (so that asking for a flexible schedule would be “another big favour” right afterwards).

      Yes, sometimes fighting for compensation requires managers to use up a bit of political capital – but that’s his job. You should expect to be fairly compensated for your work, and asking for that is not a request for a favor. It is a normal business practice. You should do it with confidence rather than hesitation.

  110. Amanda*

    Quick question – I am applying for a position working with international students. One job function is helping students with the visa process. I am married to a foreigner and have waded through several visa processes (permanent resident application, plus getting my husband his EU visa for a trip this summer). Can I talk about that as experience or is it too personal? FYI, the organization does already know I’m married to someone from a different country as I temped with them prior.

    1. GOG11*

      I would say that this counts since you assisted your husband with the process. Outside of a job, most people would only have the opportunity to go through those kinds of processes for themselves or for loved ones so, though how you got the experience does fall into sort of personal territory, the skill is still professionally relevant. I think it’s fair game to talk about it in an interview.

  111. Owl*

    So, another one, following up on my “Yay, I’m giving a presentation to 60 people!”

    We have no room for 60 people. Because of a calendar mixup, this event never got on the calendar and now we have rooms, but not enough room to safely have that many people. My kinda-supervisor has offered to call the person in charge of the event (today is my day off), but I am going to offer to do it (and apologize profusely) because this was my mistake for not triple-checking the calendar. I’m also annoyed because I called the woman in charge of this event last week (I have been out of the office most of the week, so no follow-up), asking for numbers, and got no response.

  112. K-Anon*

    Hi there,
    I’ve been dealing with a really difficult manager that just recently joined our company in Jan. He made sexist comments (like because I’m a girl that my title was secretary and that I should get him coffee if he asked, I was a technician btw) and I made sure to talk with him in private that those comments are inappropriate and I would like to discuss my role as a technician without my gender being brought up. Anyways, on Tuesday I was let go without cause from the company. When I asked why I was told that my manager had already talked to me and given me a chance to get better. The thing is, he never talked to me. His boss gave me a glowing review in March based off my former manager and current coworkers feedback as well as my having met and exceeded all my goals. I’m totally lost now and feel like I lost my job standing up for myself (I didn’t yell and wasn’t rude to him, but made sure that I was matter of fact so that he knew I was serious). Any advise for how I could have handled this better is appreciated.

    1. afiendishthingy*

      Don’t kick yourself. This guy is a total ass and good for you for being firm with him. It sounds like other people there will give you good references. Does the company have an HR department? IANAL but you were 1000% right to call him out on the sexist comments and if he can’t prove he had other cause to fire you I’d say you have grounds for a lawsuit. Write up as much as you can remember of his comments, your talk with him, with dates etc. I hope this douchecanoe gets what’s coming to him.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, man, K-Anon, that seriously sucks. I don’t think you handled anything wrong–this guy wasn’t just clueless, he was seriously nasty.

      I’d love to at least get him on the HR radar, but it’d be tough to communicate with them without getting chances at a reference torpedoed.

      1. BRR*

        I don’t think the reference is lost. She can possible ask her boss’ boss or her former boss.

    3. Joey*

      The clean way to get him on their radar is to file for unemployment and tell them you were fired without warning for no reason. At that point their HR will ask him to provide the documentation of when he warned you. If they don’t youll most likely get unemployment and Theyll know he was either sloppy in recordkeeping or lying.

  113. Done*

    Vent:

    Today is one of those days when I’m just feeling done. I feel done every day, but some days it’s at a level where you just want to punch certain people and walk out.

    I was recently given yet another writing assignment that my boss will take credit for. That alone frustrates me enough: this guy is supposedly an author, yet has me completely write or at least do the heavy lifting for at least half (probably more like 75-95%) of his articles, which he gets the byline for. Granted, some what I’m told to write I don’t want to be associated with. But the fact that he has no problem regularly swiping my work and taking credit without even giving me a honest heads up about it is incredibly frustrating.

    Just now this original assignment he asked me for has apparently doubled in size. To add insult to injury, he said I could use past material from articles “we” have written. Realistically, there is no “we.” Just me doing the work and him getting the accolades.

    I was also asked to reach out to an international retailer so we can get in. I don’t want to. I’m tired of being the instrument used to present this place as better than it is; it’s a false impression, and the people running it don’t really deserve to reap the benefit from it.

    1. nutella*

      Why are you still working there? Find another job. Have you considered freelancing?

      1. Done*

        I’ve been searching for new job for a long time (I’m a regular posting as anon today). I have a lot of debt/expenses, and no savings, so I can’t afford to be without dependable income. Plus, I have to make at least X amount to cover said expenses, and the quickie type jobs I’ve investigated so far don’t pay enough. I’ve looked at some freelance jobs, but I usually don’t meet the qualifications (X years experience in this specific field, Y degree, etc.).

  114. You Wouldn't Like Me When I'm Sleepy*

    Argh, I just need to vent. This is such a small thing to complain about in the grand scheme of things, but, it’s kind of a last straw in what’s been annoying me at this job. I’ve never had a set start time here – it’s the type of work that can generally be done on my own schedule, as long as it gets done in a reasonable amount of time. And I really value that. I am not a morning person, and I’d rather stay late than show up early. Now, though, I’ve been asked to start showing up an hour earlier than I usually do. Which means waking up an hour earlier. And I just. Don’t. Wanna. And it’s all because a group in another office in another time zone *might* need me to do a certain task. Of course, they might not, and I might just be in the office early twiddling my thumbs (because this job has turned into SO MUCH THUMB-TWIDDLING – seriously, I need to get out). I doubt I’d get to leave any earlier, either, because my other clients are accustomed to my usual schedule and expect me to be around to do things later in the day. Ugh. Really, I just need to channel this annoyance into motivation for finally job-searching.

  115. Amielle*

    I am a manager in a small medical office. I had a staff member suit her notice today for 4 months away. I had asked her to move to a different position and she had agreed. After lunch she gave me notice for September 30th. I don’t want to make the staffing changes I was planning on making and then make new changes in 4 months. If I find her replacement before the 4 months is up and have her end her employment at that time, would she be eligible for unenployment? I have known she was unhappy for a while due to not getting a raise she was promised by a manager who hired her (3 managers and 2 positions ago). Let me know what you think!

    1. BRR*

      If you fire her before her notice is up she will most likely be eligible for unemployment.

    2. Reg. commenter but anon for this*

      I think she will be able to get unemployment from the day you fire her to September 30th

  116. M.*

    I’m wondering how to put down my experience while working at a local community college so that it shows that I was more than what it seems everyone is interpreting as a file clerk. My title was that of Clerk I. I answered phones for my department, scheduled appointments for the Disability Coordinator, assisted the faculty and students with computer support, and pretty much developed the whole Testing Center policies. I also handled student files, read IEPs and 504 plans to help provide accommodations for placement exams, proctored exams, spoke with students when the Disability Coordinator was out. I answered their questions, provided forms, contacted other departments on their behalf. I emailed publishers to get audio books and pdf files for students. I learned how to use all of our assistive technology programs on our computers to help out students.

    I’m frustrated. Pretty much my entire department has left the college. I do use the Disability Coordinators that I worked under as references. My department head would add duties but then backtrack on them when questioned about what our duties were. The HR Rep pretty much only has the job description that has a few duties and then “other duties as assigned”. I worked there for 5-6 years. For some reason they refused to change our departments Clerk I titles to Secretary II titles when ALL the other departments Clerk I’s were changed over. Same job duties, different titles. I’ve been trying to leave my manufacturing job because I think the candle wax is making me sick, but even when I applied for a receptionist job with my current temp agency I got a “I have no idea why you applied for this, it’s not like you have any of these skills or are at all qualified” (she clearly did not read my resume — It’s right there!). Other places are skeptical that I have the skills that I say I have. Only places that get it are other colleges and universities.

    I need a new job but I don’t know how to convey that yes my title was Clerk I but it’s probably not what you think.

    1. nutella*

      I am not even sure why hiring managers would not believe your previous job duties. With your Clerk I title, if you listed all your duties underneath it, it should be fine. Everything that you’ve done is within what I would assume someone in that title would be asked to do. I would just find another temp agency or another agent to work with. I would definitely look for jobs on my own too, if you aren’t already. If there are parts of your old job that don’t relate to the job you are applying for, I would leave it out. You can also use the cover letter to convince HR that you are the right person for the job.

      Btw, what kinds of jobs are you looking for?

      1. M.*

        Either office/reception work or manufacturing. The office work because that’s where I was for so long and because it pays better. I’ve been working at a company that makes scented candles for the past nine months, six being a low level supervisor on the production line and three months doing quality assurance, and I like it, so I don’t mind working in manufacturing but it doesn’t pay much around here.

    2. Jessie's Girl*

      Take your title off your resume. If they ask for your title in an interview, tell them at that time.

  117. Jill 2*

    Any marketing folks out there? I would like to make a transition from jobs I’ve had in the past where I’m routing things for approval, compiling comments, and doing production work to more research and analytical work. I don’t know what I have to do to get there. I know so few people in those roles. I don’t want to be a Marketing Director and oversee it all; I’d rather get into trending and forecast, and diving into an organization’s own data. It would be a good challenge for me, but I much prefer working on the back end and supplying information to make decisions, rather than working on the front-end stuff consumers see.

    Any advice from the crowd would be appreciated!

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I’m a marketing folk but I don’t think I can help. I do most of our numbers, research and analysis myself, and I grew into the job (which I gave myself. :p), so I’m not any help at telling you how to make a career switch.

      I will preach (seems weekly in open thread!) about valuable a skill set online marketing/ecommerce analysis is. You would think that by 2015 the world would be chock full of people who can skillfully interpret allllll the data online tools provide, but it’s not.

      If you get an opportunity to expose yourself to online marketing or ecommerce in your day job now, jump on it, is my advice. So. Much. Data. So much to learn to figure out what all of those number, all of those many numbers actually mean, and how that should drive business decisions. People who do this well command excellent salaries.

      1. Jill 2*

        This is helpful, because our digital marketing initiatives have recently fallen to me. The problem is, I’m stuck in the day-to-day of copywriting, trafficking it to the right people, approvals, etc. What I would much rather spend my day doing is looking at our Google Analytics. I am getting more involved with that, but our SEO consultant really handles all of it. He is very technical and not easy to learn from; I hope he’d be a resource but it hasn’t worked so much.

        If there is anything more specific you could advise me about what to look for and how I can develop those insights, I would appreciate it so much! Right now, I reactively answer questions people have. I need to develop my initiative and look for trends. It’s hard because I have no guidance, and our business is a very traditional one that doesn’t seem to align with anything I’ve read about online.

        2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Hi Jill, that’s great news. You’re already working in an area that expands to the kind of analysis work you’d like to do, reasonably easily.

          Couple things:

          1) an outside SEO consultant is unlikely to help a customer learn to drive to get their own stats, and interpret their own stats. Less scrupulous consultants will actively work against this because they want to be the only source of information, and their interpretation to be the only one. The average consultant won’t help either, even if they don’t work against it, because its against self interest.

          2) if you have access to your google analytics account, get in and start pushing buttons now. I am not a fan of trying to interpret reports someone else has run. I think it’s a waste of time, because there are so many ways to format reports (data to call), it’s wayyyyyyy more useful to push buttons and get google to spit back the data exactly the way you want it. If I have a question, I probably generate 10 or 20 different views to answer it.

          3) if you don’t have access to your google analytics account, get it! If the only person interpreting your orgs data is an outside consultant that’s a serious organization flaw and I’d hope that your boss would be thrilled to hear you want to start looking at the data, for your org, on your own.

          I’m going to post a link to some basic google resources below. I’ll also check back later today and Monday to see if you have any more questions.

          If you want to ask something again in open thread next week, just make sure “wakeen” is in the post somewhere and 95% chance I’ll catch the post and reply. I self taught analytics and can do some pretty complex things with it. It’s not near as scary as it looks.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            Google’s resources are here and they are free:

            https://www.google.com/intl/en/analytics/learn/

            I believe certification is free also, although I know there are paid course that can lead to certification also. I’ve never bothered with certification as I didn’t require it to hire myself for the job but google certification does matter in hiring.

            FWIW, it’s common enough that it doesn’t impress me (and I’ve talked to people who were very unimpressive who do have it), however, anybody doing the job or wanting a job who doesn’t have it — that would be odd and lacking.

            1. Jill 2*

              Thanks Wakeen. I’ve started going through Google’s resources, but have been distracted and haven’t been able to follow up.

              As for access to our accounts, I have access to all of them. The hard part for me is we have multiple websites, and I find it challenging to wrap my brain around all of them. I’ve created a dashboard in Excel where I input basic data monthly, but I need to take this to the next level. I’ll be sure to give you a shout-out on Friday — I’d love to learn more.

              Thanks again!

  118. nutella*

    I hope I’m not too late.

    I’ve been thinking about going the self-employed route. This won’t be anytime soon (I am currently unemployed so I need to first get a regular job for a stable income). I’m not sure what I want to ask from the community (or if this is the right forum) but I just want to know what the opinions are on it. If you are self-employed (would love to hear from Alison), what are the pros and cons? What do you love about it? What do you miss, if anything, from the traditional workplace? What advice would you give to others interested in this route?

    Thanks

    1. katamia*

      I’ve been self-employed for awhile, but I’m giving it up because I wasn’t making enough money, which was also the case for a friend of mine. So that’s definitely the biggest con, IMO.

      The biggest pro for me was control over my schedule. I could work at 3am or 3pm. I could take breaks whenever I wanted. It didn’t matter as long as I made my deadlines (which might vary depending on what field you’re in, of course–I did everything from home via the Internet, but a lot of people probably do have to meet with clients and such).

      Another huge pro was getting experience in an area I wanted to work in that was difficult because a lot of the places around here either wanted experience (I didn’t have formal experience) or a degree in a specific area (I have a degree, but it’s in something else). This route allowed me to get the experience I needed to get a job in (well, very close to, but it’s significant progress) what I really want to do.

      I think one of the best things you can do before you start working for yourself is to know exactly how you work and do everything possible to make sure your workspace(s) and schedule(s) conform to that. If you’re a night person, say, then waking up bright and early isn’t going to help if you know you won’t get anything done for the first 2-3 hours, whereas maybe if you slept in a little later you’d be able to get to work and be productive after just an hour. If you love natural light, try to set up your workspace in a place where you’ll get a lot.

      I can’t think of anything else off the top of my head, but if you’re having trouble coming up with things, take a look at the things that helped you in past jobs and possibly even school, as well as things that seemed to make it harder for you to work, and try to apply that knowledge to what you’ll be doing. Good luck!

      1. Jill 2*

        How do you start? How do you make the transition from corporate job to self-employment? I would imagine you need tons of experience and contacts, and so I have to do what I’m doing for another 10 years. But I know lots of self-employed 25 year olds. How did they do it?

        I know there are rules of thumb about having enough money saved to tide you over, etc., but I mean from a work standpoint. How do you know you have the skills to make it on your own? For my line of work, I rely on so many others, I don’t know how to break it off onto my own thing.

        1. nutella*

          I think if you start doing some of that work on the side while you are working for someone else (which is what I’m sort of doing) you’ll know from experience what your clients needs are and how to address it better or you might find an area of the industry that hasn’t yet been addressed by everyone else. Then it’s just saving up as much as possible so that you have enough to start your business and of course, doing a ton of research. As far as networking, I was thinking of attending industry conventions. I’ve also been reading about other entrepreneurs’ success stories.

        2. katamia*

          Well, I was transitioning from education to what I do, so it wasn’t a corporate job. I passed the skills test for a contracting work-from-home position to start out and wrote a good cover letter explaining how my education work (ESOL teaching) would make me a good hire (transcription, which requires a lot of proofreading, which I used as evidence of my indepth knowledge of the English language). Actually, I saw later in their job posting that they usually require 3 years of experience, but I didn’t have any when they hired me.

          One thing that “helped” me was having utterly failed at securing regular employment, honestly. I needed out of teaching and just didn’t feel like I had other options. (I also had parents who were willing and able to let me live at home and help me out with bills and such–I graduated just before the recession and was one of those people who had a lot of trouble getting a foot in the door anywhere.)

          I’ve always been a very independent worker who hates relying on other people (I was the kid who always did all the group project work in school because other kids would do it wrong), so I can’t really advise you on much–I can work in groups, but I’ve always been happier working on my own. And since I hadn’t had regular employment in years anyway, it wasn’t much of a gamble for me.

          I suggest looking for other people who do what you want to do and seeing if you can get some information from them about how they got started, what their days look like, etc. I don’t know what line of work you’re in (and even if I did, I might not have any experience with it) so I can’t give you more specific advice, unfortunately. Even if you have self-employed friends or family members in other industries, it might be helpful to take a look at how they did it and see if any of that can be applied to your own industry.

          1. katamia*

            (Just to clarify, I went on to do other freelancing from that single contract position, but being successful in that first position was what helped me realize it could be a good option, at least for a little while.)

          2. AdjunctGal*

            I almost could have written your reply, though I’m a bit older than you, I suspect. The jobs teaching ESOL pay so little anyway, unless you’re in the public schools, and then even still. I had found contract work doing transcription. What other kinds of work have you done beside transcription?

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      I’ve been self-employed for over 15 years now. What I love about it? No office politics, or if I have to work with others, it’s for a short time period and then I’m FREE! from them. And I can’t beat the commute. I’ve saved loads of money (I would bet, not having kept real track) from buying less gas, not getting lunches, needing less in terms of work clothes (which has come back to bite me in the butt). Not that I’ve ever been someone to get up at the crack of dawn to do my hair and put on makeup, but if I was, I wouldn’t have to do that because no one is going to see. If there’s something I want to learn/buy, there’s no one I have to get approval from except myself and my finances/workload. If I want to have a nap in the middle of the day, go for a walk, get the groceries, I don’t have to ask permission — so long as I don’t have a pressing deadline I can do it. I get to write off a portion of my household expenses because I operate out of my home, and my car too. Things I need for my work like software, it’s a business expense! Getting *that cheque* in the mail, the big one from the huge project and making that deposit.

      What don’t I love about it? It’s all on me — everything. IT, accounting, sales, marketing, scheduling, R&D, production. If I’m not working, I’m not earning (I’m single, so there isn’t any other income to rely on). My income is up and down, I may work like a maniac for 3 months and then not work very much for three months. A couple of years ago, when I tallied up my downtime, I realised that I had only worked for half the year (granted, I earn a decent amount, but the up and down of it, the lag of payment, it does get very tight sometimes). When I’m not working, I have developed a bad habit of sticking around because The Phone Might Ring! I also may not start a project, because I’ve started them only to have that phone ring and I have to get out of that pattern. I have some clients who I would like to fire but cannot at this time afford to do so. I work in a creative field but I find it hard to know how I stack up against others in terms of skill/pricing. There are no paid holidays or vacations.

      What I miss from the traditional workplace? The regularity of a pay cheque. The fact that there were other people to ask questions of or processes in place so some things just got handled and I never knew about them (like buying office supplies or dealing with government). To a certain extent, I miss the social interaction. But OldJob was such a toxic environment, I’m kind of not sure if I could go back to working in an office again and keep “regular” hours — I am unfortunately just not a morning person. I definitely couldn’t do the commute I used to do with that job.

      What hasn’t really changed? I still have to do timesheets/track my time, or I don’t know how much to bill. But a part of that now is that I often get asked how long something is going to take/cost, which wasn’t part of being an FTE, someone told me how much time to spend on it. And the work I do hasn’t really changed. I may have gotten better at certain aspects of it, or faster or developed new techniques, but it’s still the same thing.

      What advice I would give is: find out if there is some sort of a business development centre in your area where you can go to get advice. I mean, what are the laws in your area for what you want to do? Would you need to carry liability insurance? What kind of taxes do you need to charge/collect/remit to the government? Are you able to operate under your name or do you need a business name/licence? You may even be able to get this information online but I found out recently that there is such a centre for my region and it’s on my list of things to do this summer. For example, I think there’s a government programme for job creation where they pick up a certain percentage of the salary for a period of time — that might be useful to me to understand more about.

      There is so much you can do now with research online about whatever your field is. But the one thing I would strongly recommend is: find a good accountant. In the beginning, you may have to keep/total your receipts yourself because you may not have the money to pay someone to do it for you (unless you are a bookkeeper or accountant, in which case you’re ahead of the game). But you need someone you feel comfortable asking questions. Not every day or all the time, but there will points when you will wonder “Is this deductible?” or “I need an X, but I don’t have the money saved up for it, is there another way to finance this/what are the downsides to purchasing X vs. leasing it?” And you will need someone who can give you the answer to that. A business development centre might have courses or something that will give you the broad strokes on that, but here’s a weird one for you: I am writing off on my business something I never thought I would be able to get away with because if the power goes out, I can’t work. I asked my accountant about it before I got it, thinking that there was no way, but the worst thing they could have said was no, so I figured why not ask to be sure?

      If you are considering being self employed, there’s no reason why you can’t start now if you’re between jobs, even if it’s only research or securing a domain name. Many people start freelancing after the work day is done — when their day job is interfering with their ability to earn on the side, it’s time to make the switch. Or they have businesses like jewelry making that are more of a sideline/hobby than a huge money making thing. But, depending on what you want to do, you don’t necessarily have to have a job first. Everyone starts somewhere and very few start with $100K projects out of the blocks, it’s part of the process of learning how to run your own business. If you’re a fresh graduate, I would recommend that yes, you should get a job first so you can learn your industry — if at all possible. I’ve seen a lot of people who couldn’t get jobs out of college just decide to freelance and some haven’t made a very good job of it because they have no idea how work works. Having a traditional job, you are somewhat cushioned from the inevitable mistakes you might make as you learn the ropes from your colleagues — if you’ve landed a decent job with reasonable people (mostly) who understand that it’s in their own best interest to teach/coach/mentor you and help you find your feet.

  119. Jillociraptor*

    First week of my new job, and I just made my first mistake :(

    Granted, the wider implications are minimal, and I guess it’s positive that it took me four whole days to drop a ball but…ugh. Can it be the weekend yet?

    1. fposte*

      The office is probably all running around cheering “She *is* human! She *is* human!”

      Have a good weekend.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        fposte, you’re like a little angel on my shoulder, always talking me back from the brink :)

        Have a great weekend too!

      2. afiendishthingy*

        Love it.

        And it’s a cliche, but you really do learn from mistakes! (doesn’t stop me from obsessing over them either, but then a few months later when I get a similar situation and don’t make the same mistake I’m grateful for the experience)

    2. Joey*

      Awesome. Small mistakes are a sign that you’re not afraid to make decisions and understand risk taking.

    3. TheExchequer*

      First weeks are all about taking chances, making mistakes, and getting messy. Channel your inner Ms. Frizzle! (If you don’t know who that is, look it up! :) )

    4. Job-Hunt Newbie*

      It’s ok!

      I transitioned to a new department (deli) at my first job at a grocery store. My first DAY unsupervised, I managed to cut my finger open on the deli slicer. Which we were duly warned about. I bet it wasn’t as bad as that! :)

  120. Uterus .. PLS STOP*

    Possible TMI warning:

    So I got my period (12 days early which has never happened before) on the train this morning. I am wearing a lighter shade of denim, so three small blood drops leaked through before I could dash to a bathroom! It’s not a huge puddle or anything, but definitely slightly. MY LIFE IS A DISASTER.

    I stayed at work. No one has said anything so far, and I don’t work near any stores so I couldn’t just run and buy new pants and didn’t feel like I should commute the 1+ home to change. UGH.

    Was this the correct decision? Anyone else have this happen to them? Do my coworkers think i’m a total moron?

    1. Uterus .. PLS STOP*

      slightly noticable*

      Also my shirt does not cover it. I’m cursing Casual Friday so hard.

    2. IndianSummer*

      Is it visible from behind? Or is it in the crotch area where no one would notice unless they were up in your business?

      I totally would have gone back home and maybe even called in sick, but that is likely not an adult move.

    3. infj*

      I probably would have done what you did. But my life is also a bit of a disaster so I’m probably not a good benchmark. Also, in my office, we come to work unless to sick to walk, in labor, hospitalized, etc. I try to keep a whole outfit change in my drawer–usually something more formal in case there is a meeting that i forgot about. but i’ve had to use the spare outfit because of baby spit up and/or stains more often than anything else.

    4. TheExchequer*

      From past experience when this happened to me (it was a large puddle at school. so. mortifying. when the teacher pointed it out), if it’s a small area, more than likely, nobody has noticed. If anybody does notice, they will probably not say anything. If anybody does say anything, if you can laugh and say, “Oh, I just got something on me at lunch!”, they won’t think anything of it.

    5. Nina*

      That has definitely happened to me before, but thankfully I was wearing dark denim. Sometimes Mother Nature just likes to pull a fast one on us. :)

      I think you handled the situation fine. Yes it’s embarrassing, but it happens to everyone. By Monday it will be forgotten.

      As for leaving, it depends. If this was a customer-facing job, or something in retail where you were walking around all day, I might consider leaving, or doing the old “tie a sweater around your waist” trick. But if this is a desk job or something like that, I’d just make it a point to stay at my seat whenever possible.

      In the future, keep a spare pair of undies and dark leggings (they’re thinner and easier to carry) locked in your desk, if possible.

    6. Fuzzy*

      This has happened to me. It sucks MAJOR.

      Though now I keep an extra pair of pants in my desk. Very helpful for when I got slushied this winter by a friendly car.

    7. Apollo Warbucks*

      Someone posted the other week about a similar situation except their boss told them they should be more careful or organised, which seemed pretty dumb.

        1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

          You are correct! I had a mortifying incident a few weeks ago where I got blood on my skirt and had to run home to change (luckily, for me it’s only about 15 minutes to get home–doable). If I couldn’t get home I’d probably do the cowardly thing and stay in my chair all day long until everyone else had gone home. Or develop a sudden “sickness,” because I’m even more cowardly.

          But yeah, I had tried to tell my boss “Oh, it’s taken care of, I just had to go home for a minute” and he kept pressing until I admitted “I bled onto my skirt,” and he gaped for a minute and then said “You should be more organized!” and I didn’t know what to say to that.

          1. afiendishthingy*

            I think this is one of those situations where fists speak louder than words

    8. land of oaks*

      Babe. In the nicest possible way: No one is looking at your butt ;o)
      At least, they reeallyyy shouldn’t be looking at your butt….

      I have had this happen a couple of times in my life. The price of having a uterus can really suck sometimes, but really, it’s okay! I bet you 100 internet points that no one noticed. You are not a total moron.

      I also wouldn’t have gone home to change if it was that far away. Soon you’ll forget all about it! HUGS!

    9. jhhj*

      In my experience, women will pretend they don’t see it if it looks like there’s nothing you can do to fix it, and men mostly don’t recognise it at first glance. You’re fine.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      ugh. It was one of my biggest fears. I started keeping clothes in my car after one episode of sitting on wet, red paint. (How it got there I will never know.) Fortunately, I lived close to my job so I ran home. It was the walk out to the car that was sooo very loonng….

      “It’s paint!”

      “Yeeep. Suuuurre, paint, (wink, wink) we understand.”

      “No, really, it’s actually paint. Go over there and look.”

      “Yeah, right.”

      After that I developed an elaborate plan that included parking nearest the door with the least amount of people on the path to that door. My heart goes out to you.

  121. TheExchequer*

    A more serious question for the AAM members. When interviewing and they ask me, “So, why are you looking for a new job?” (keeping in mind that I’ve held my current position for less than a year and, due to the economy, have a somewhat spotty record before that) should I:

    1. Tell the truth: “Because we’re a small company and they’re having issues paying me on time.”
    2. Tell a half-truth: “Because it’s a small company and I’m looking for a role that I can really grow in.”
    3. Lie like a rug: “Well, I saw a position open at your company and I just couldn’t pass it up!”

    1. fposte*

      1. The other two say “I move around fast and will move away from you fast, too!”

      1. fposte*

        To clarify, they don’t inherently say “I move around fast,” but absent a track record with longer-term jobs, that’s how they’ll read as a reason for an early departure to a hiring manager.

      2. AdAgencyChick*

        So true. As long as you say this in a neutral tone, no hiring manager in the world (except the ones who themselves have cash flow issues!) is going to think, “job hopper!” hearing that.

    2. Tinker*

      Absolutely #1. The other two are reasonable statements and may also be useful, but “they can’t make payroll” is the golden king of reasons to leave a company. No more need be said to any reasonable and many unreasonable interviewers.

      Maybe something like “Well, (positive statements about current employer and what you have done for them go here) , however unfortunately it is a small business and they are having cash flow issues to the extent of being unable to pay me on time. So I’m looking for other opportunities, preferably still in a small company where I can grow in my role, and the position you have available struck me as particularly compelling because (additional specific reasons why you like the position go here).”

    3. Natalie*

      Everybody sane understands leaving because you don’t get paid consistently. And trust me, you don’t want to work for ANYONE who holds that against you.

  122. katamia*

    A little late, but does anyone have advice on how to plan out your career and where you want to go? I just got a job (haven’t started it yet) that involves making chocolate teapots, when what I (think I) really want to do is make chocolate teacups. Uses most (I hesitate to say all, having worked in neither to date, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it actually turned out to be all) of the same skills, which I’m really happy about and should be good experience. Other than “Get experience making chocolate teapots and then apply for chocolate teacup-making jobs in a few years and, er, hope I get something,” what are some concrete steps or thought processes I could use to get beyond
    1. Making chocolate teapots
    2. ????
    3. PROFIT!!! (CHOCOLATE TEACUPS!!!)
    and work out secondary goals along the way to help me get there?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I feel like someone should write a guidebook for this!

      I wonder if a different way of benchmarking could be to make sure you fully understand what it will take to be competitive as an applicant for Chocolate Teacup positions–maybe shadowing someone who does that, researching that part of the industry, reading a bunch of job descriptions and talking to hiring managers to make sure you’re developing the right set of skills. That might put more structure on this process and make it clearer what kinds of experiences you should be seeking out in your current role.

      Are there chocolate teacup employees in your current job? It sounds like yes. It would probably be good to start forging relationships with them, too, so you have brains to pick in the future.

      1. katamia*

        Oh, a guidebook about this would be amazing! I can’t be the only person who has trouble with this.

        Good idea about the job descriptions–I’ve applied for a few, but I think I’ll start copying and pasting the ones I can find into a file and make note of commonalities and trends.

        I actually do have some chocolate teacup connections, but not through my job–that’s all chocolate teapotmakers. They’re actually in different industries, the teapots and the teacups. One of my hobbies also involves chocolate teacups, though, so I have a pretty good understanding of the chocolate teacup side of the industry. Maybe I’ll see if I can pin down some people I know from there to give me more specific advice/info.

      2. So Very Anonymous*

        Is there a Chocolate Teacup Makers of the World professional association or similar organization? If so, they might have lots of good resources, including job listings for Chocolate Teacup Makers that would let you see the kinds of requirements/desired qualifications in those ads. Some professional associations restrict their job posting service to members only, but others make them publicly available online.

        1. katamia*

          Oh, good thought! I know of one org I’m not sure I’d qualify for if they require membership (job is in another country so I’m moving), but I’ll see what else I can find.

  123. Benjamin*

    What is the standard practice at very strict attendance employers (learned from internet, not interviews) who require earned PTO to leave early at any time of the week, with two weeks notice, on new hires’ required, pre-existing doctor’s appointments that cannot be rescheduled (I tried)? I only have 1, and while it is monthly, in the future, I would be able to schedule it around work. I just can’t for June.

    How and when should I bring this up? There was no good opportunity during the interview/offer process. I know every company is different, but any advice on how to deal with this situation would be quite appreciated, since I want and need to keep this job very badly. It seems like it will be pretty good aside from the apparently draconian attendance policy, which I should note I did not learn during the interview/offer process, but over the internet, which gives me optimism that 1 small thing like this shouldn’t derail the entire thing.

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      So will you have no PTO earned at all by the time of the appointment in June? I can’t tell if you’ve started yet or know your manager, or how much of the day the appointment would eat, but generally the manager is the place to go on something like this. “I have a doctor’s appointment on the 15th that wouldn’t be reschedulable in time–is there a way we can make this work even though I haven’t earned enough PTO yet? I’m willing to go into PTO debt to cover it.”

      1. Benjamin*

        Thanks for the response. I am not sure about whether I will have PTO earned. I have accepted the offer, but do not start until the week after next. I have the email and phone number of someone in HR if I have any questions, whom I am guessing I could call about it, but friends and family are advising me to wait until my first day to avoid giving the wrong impression — that of someone who is going to need to leave early all of the time. The offer is contingent upon a background check as well, so I am somewhat nervous that they might see this and use something in that (though I can’t imagine what) as an excuse not to hire me despite accepting the offer.

        I know I am probably overthinking this, but I would really like some other opinions before I proceed.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      I’m guessing this is somewhere you just started? I wonder if it’s the type of policy they have in place but don’t enforce unless someone is abusing it. I would talk to your supervisor and be honest – and especially mention that this can be resolved after June. That is such a ridiculously rigid policy – what is someone supposed to do if they get violently ill and need to go to a doctor the next day?

      1. Benjamin*

        I am starting the week after next. I do have the email address and phone number of someone in HR to call with any questions, but I am worried that bringing this up before my first day of work could give the wrong impression of me, and have been advised by everyone I ask in person to wait until I go in on my first day, since my job offer is contingent upon a background check. Now, they shouldn’t find anything they don’t like, since I have a rather clean and uncomplicated history, but I do not want there to be any reason for them to hesitate before I even get there for my first day.

        1. Benjamin*

          I may well have the PTO to leave 45-1 hour early by the time of the appointment, but that’s only if I immediately start earning PTO at the rate I am supposed to. I am afraid to ask about this as well for fear of giving the wrong impression. Once I am there, and everything is more slated, I will feel a lot better about all of this, but it will be a lot of worry in the meantime.

          P.S. Emergencies are accommodated, but frowned upon. What I am really hoping is that they don’t see this the same way, since there’s really no way for me to get out of it and the appointment was made far in advance of my interview, let alone the job offer.

          1. fposte*

            It seems pretty reasonable to presume that you’ll earn PTO as you’re supposed to, but that’s not the same thing as approval to use it–how much time is there between your start date and this appointment? And is the issue that not only can’t you reschedule, it would be medically problematic for you to cancel and just skip a month?

            I lean toward advising waiting for your first day as well; that’s when you’re in contact with your manager, who is who really matters here (not HR). I know with uncertainty like this it can be hard to wait, but I don’t think you’d really be able to get a clear answer in advance without the manager’s weigh-in, and you don’t want to end up making an unnecessary big deal about something when the whole point is that it’s not going to be a big deal.

            1. Benjamin*

              Thanks for the advice. It is indeed the case that it would be medically problematic for me to cancel and just skip a month. I think I will follow your advice and inquire about it as soon as I can to my actual manager, making sure to emphasize that it will not be an issue after this time, and only is now because I did not know I had this job when I made the appointment. I will also make sure to let them know I made every effort to reschedule anyways, but could not.

              I really hope this isn’t an issue. I have a feeling it won’t be, especially since I only have to leave 45-1 hour early, and I am told by many people this is a rather normal and expected occurrence when starting a new job. It’s also 10 days after my start date, which may not be 2+ weeks, but it’s also not 2 days.

  124. Credit where it's due - update*

    Thanks everyone for your comments last week, re my question about claiming credit for a class exercise that was attributed to someone else. I’m pleased to report a good outcome.

    In the end I waited until I could have a face to face conversation with the co-ordinator. As soon as I mentioned the exercise he said (in an apologetic tone) that he had remembered that it had been me who who had written it, but had been in a rush when he sent the materials out. He immediately sent a brief email to all the tutors thanking me for writing it. So, the best possible outcome all round :)

    1. Jillociraptor*

      This is so great. Situations like this are so tough because you know logically there’s a 95% chance the person is going to be normal and the result will be great, but that 5% chance that they’ll have been relieved of all reason by the issue is scary. I’m so glad this worked out perfectly!

  125. Bavy*

    I have been doing a temp/contract job at a large health insurance company for a little over half a year. I applied for a permanent position a few weeks ago and was offered a contingent offer pending my background check. It finally came through today and I was officially offered near lower end of the of the acceptable pay range I submitted ($16-17). I have been offered $16.10 by the internal recruiter. Before this official offer there had been no discussion of pay. Also the official offer makes it seem like I’m a brand new employee (even though I’ve been here for awhile) but it could just how their new hire welcome packs are designed.

    Is there still an opportunity to negotiate for something higher? Should I just respond back to the recruiter thanking her for the offer and stating that I believe my experience warrants a higher rate?

    The benefits are very decent (health insurance is free), the job isn’t too stressful and the commute is tiny (10 minutes from my house with no traffic). My main worry is that they might rescind my offer but on the other hand all they can say is no right?

    1. Cristina in England*

      I kind of think that you are stuck with it, since it is in the range you submitted. It might seem like you submitted that number in bad faith.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        I agree, unless the terms of employment are considerably different than what you thought they were when naming your price. For example, you gave the range thinking you were going to be working a more-desirable shift, and they want you to work a less-desirable shift.

        But if nothing much has changed, I’d be annoyed as the hiring manager that you said your range was $X to $Y and now are unhappy with being offered something within that range.

    2. fposte*

      I’m on the “It wouldn’t hurt to ask” side–what rate is it that you’re hoping for? “Thanks! I was hoping, given the value of my prior experience with the company, for $16.50–is there any room for movement on that rate?”

      1. Graciosa*

        I would try fposte’s suggestion, but be prepared for pushback. One of the risks of giving a range for a job you know is that you can’t as easily make an argument that new factors discovered in your interview warrant a higher market rate than you originally thought.

        Regarding your comment about the official offer making it seem like you’re a brand new employee – you are. Normally temps – even in temp-to-perm situations – are employed by another company and not the client. So yes, even if you’ve been coming to work in that building for six months already, you would be a new employee.

        1. fposte*

          I’m in agreement that I wouldn’t make an argument about it, but sometimes just asking can open things up.

          1. Bavy*

            I will probably follow fposte’s advice and email her on Monday. I was hoping for $16.50 so you hit the nail on the head. Thanks for the replies!

  126. Camp rocks*

    Work for a day camp. We hire mostly teenaged counselors. There references are mostly teachers or family friends. Any ideas or suggestions for questions to ask, beyond would you trust him/her around your own kids? And asking for descriptive words about them? Thanks

    1. TheExchequer*

      I would say asking about reliability would be a big one. For teachers, “How often did this person turn their work in on time without being nagged?” For family friends, “When this person says that they’re going to do something, how often do they follow through?” Things like that.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Ha, I would have never gotten hired! I turned in everything late, used to miss recess all the time because I hadn’t done my homework, etc. Even in college I still was terrible about doing work on time.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I realized I didn’t help at all. I would ask how they handle stress, how they handle interpersonal tension, how their problem-solving skills are, things like that.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Presumably, you’re looking to see that these counselors are reliable, decent with kids, trustworthy, and generally able to recognize and stop bad or unsafe behavior
      For the family friends, ask if the teenager has ever been a pet sitter or baby sitter for them. Based on that, ask questions that get at how trustworthy and responsible the reference thinks they are – How many kids/pets did they watch? For how long? Were they trusted with a key? Did they every have to handle a stressful or emergency situation?

      Other questions that might help: Tell me about a time when candidate resisted negative peer pressure. Tell me about a time when candidate had to teach/tutor/help someone who was struggling to understand a concept. You can also google questions to ask baby sitter/nanny references – there’s a ton of help out there for those areas, and lots of the questions probably would be easy to translate to camp counselor jobs.

    4. MaryMary*

      Why do you think Kid would be a good counselor? Where do you think s/he might struggle?

  127. Anonsie*

    Settle an argument from another message board: A woman got sent home from work for wearing an inappropriate shirt on the grounds that it was too low cut. She posted a photo of herself in the shirt, and while it was not at all low cut (it was button-down, standard top button undone) but it did look a little bit pajama-like. It was a collared floral shirt with an open breast pocket, but the way the collar was cut and the white background on the floral made it look kind of like pajamas. Although overall, I thought it was obviously a blouse, just a kind of questionably styled one.

    When people brought it up she posted a link to where it was for sale from the department store she purchased it from, and it was indeed a pricey silk blouse that looked like a blouse (and not pajamas) on the model. She works with kids, apparently, not sure in what capacity.

    General opinion was that she deserved to be sent home because the shirt was heinously inappropriate for work under any circumstances. I was one of the only big dissenters, in that 1) you don’t send adults home to change clothes for something as benign as a slightly ugly shirt and 2) a shirt that looks kind of like pajamas if you look at it hard enough is not screamingly inappropriate for a casual workplace.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I’m guessing it was the way it fit her – if it was big, it may have slipped down or it may not have provided enough coverage when she leaned forward.

      Telling a woman her clothes are inappropriate is one of the worst conversations you can ever have as a manager, so I have to think it was REALLY egregious for her to get sent home for it. Those are conversations we avoid.

      1. katamia*

        Yeah, when I started teaching I had to metaphorically throw out half my work wardrobe because I realized students could see EVERYTHING when I bent over their desks to look at their papers. And since an (adult) student asked me out my very first day of teaching…nope. New wardrobe happened right away.

        But I definitely don’t think she should have been sent home for it.

      2. Anonsie*

        That’s a good point, the leaning forward. The open neck barely came down below her collar bone so I’m having a hard time picturing it, but that makes more sense than they thought it was pajamas and didn’t want to say so for some reason. A lot of people said where they work you’ll get sent home if your clothes are wrinkled even so apparently some places are more uptight that I’ve ever known.

        You could see about this much skin: http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/624344017_1/New-Fashion-women-shirts-ladies-blouse-long-sleeved-shirts-turn-down-collar-shirts-free-shipping-S.jpg but the button was higher up

    2. fposte*

      Couldn’t say without seeing it, but I’m with Katie–I think it’s reasonable to take them at their word and assume it was about lowness of cut, not pajama-y stuff or ugliness.

      But what madwoman wears pricey silk to work with kids? They may have done her a favor.

      1. Anonsie*

        I thought the same thing, but who knows. I once complimented a pediatrician I work with on her blouse, she told me the brand and I looked it up later– not only was it 100% silk, it was over $500.

    3. Graciosa*

      It doesn’t sound like she was being sent home for a slightly ugly shirt, but for a low-cut shirt. The picture she took of herself may not have really reflected the way it appeared in her work environment (buttons and movement can change things from a posed still life very quickly).

      I’m with those who think that if she was sent home, she probably should have been. We REALLY hate to have clothing conversations, and I can’t imagine anyone doing this without clear cause.

      And yes, once it’s that bad, it makes more sense to send the person home to change than it does to have them hang around and compound the offense. I did have one exception where I counseled an employee instead of demanding an immediate change, but it was for wearing jeans inappropriately and not an exposure issue the way a low cut blouse would be.

      I’m not sure you can overestimate how much managers hate to do this. If I ever had a manager speak to me about my clothing, I would have been *mortified* rather than argumentative.

      1. Anonsie*

        To be clear, though, people agreed that it wasn’t too low cut but that it was style-inappropriate and that the style alone was worth her being sent home so the neckline was irrelevant. I’m not taking issue with her management as much as I am with the rest of the group saying that for the pajama looks alone she should have been sent home to change. For all we know she ‘d had way more buttons undone or something and that’s why her managers were upset, but our discussion was all about the style of the shirt.

    4. AnnieNonymous*

      Is it possible that the blouse might have been see-through in certain lighting?

    5. chump with a degree*

      I saw it and it was pajamas. They may have sold it as a shirt, but it was still jammies.

      1. Anonsie*

        Haha I wondered if anyone else from there would be around here!

        I thought the prints looked exactly different enough in the two listings that I didn’t think it was the same shirt, though. The material wasn’t identical as far as I could tell, but who knows.

  128. Sunshine Brite*

    FML, totally late to the party and my work system just locked me out for an indeterminate amount of time and lost over a month’s work that was already entered.

    Plus, my (previously direct) supervisor made a racialized comment at our last meeting to the point where a coworker and I have been researching response options to bring on a discussion with the program manager. We’re drafting a letter and going anonymous since it was the most egregious with our supervisor this last time, but has happened with at least 2 other supervisors and multiple coworkers including a new staff prioritizing visible disabilities over many of the invisible ones we see like mental illness without correction by the supervisor. I end up stepping in with something non-commital sometimes just so it doesn’t seem like everyone agrees. We have clients in all of these populations and I don’t want to get too close into it, but my dept needs a good dose of empathy and education on trauma. It’s really making it uncomfortable to be working there as a person who’s not a white woman over the age of 35.

  129. Amy*

    Probably a bit late here – disadvantage to living in a different timezone!

    I’ve started travelling a bit for work lately and have noticed there seems to be an expectation that you will hang out/eat dinner with your colleagues in the evening after a days work or a conference etc. After hanging out with the same person all day I just want to do my own thing in the evenings even if thats just hanging out in my hotel room ordering room service! What do you usually do in these situations on a work trip? Any suggestions on a polite way to tell me colleagues I don’t want to hang out with them? :-)

    1. fposte*

      Have you tried just saying it? “I’m just too beat–I’m going to veg out in the room, but you guys have a great time.”

    2. AnotherFed*

      You can always beg off from one night with a claim that you have other plans for tonight, but will see them in the morning. They don’t have to know that those plans are room service and trash TV, and the phrasing leaves it open enough that if you do go out somewhere or down to hotel common spaces, you won’t have to feel like you’re caught in a lie if you run into the coworkers.

    3. Katie the Fed*

      I would make an effort to do it at least one night. When I travel, usually the group hangs out the first night, and then people start to do their own thing. So maybe first night, and from there smething like “oh, I’m going to go do my own thing tonight, but thanks! See you in the morning!”

    4. MaryMary*

      Can you blame work, or will they see through that? “Sorry, guys, I really need to catch up on email/review tomorrow’s presentation/finish the MM report.”

    5. nep*

      This is always me — I need / want to spend time on my own in the evenings after a day’s work at a conference like this. I don’t think it’s impolite in the least simply to decline — no explanation needed.

    6. AdAgencyChick*

      I do this all the time. “Sorry, I have some friends I want to visit.” If it’s going to be a multi-day trip I do try to eat with coworkers at least once so I don’t look standoffish, and if we are taking the clients to dinner I suck it up and go. But usually it’s fine to bow out.

  130. Ali*

    Are there any event planners or other hospitality industry folks here? I got an interview for an assistant event coordinator job on Tuesday despite having no event planning experience. However, I did emphasize my people skills and interest in the hospitality industry, so I guess that worked!

    That said, I am just wondering the best way to interview when you don’t have experience in the field or if anyone has hospitality-specific tips. Thanks in advance!

  131. BRR*

    I just found a position for consulting in my field. I want to hear people’s experiences with consulting.

    I think I would like getting to work with a variety of organizations and could do the travel.

    Does the travel drain you? Can you go from a position consulting in a field back to a position in the field itself?

    1. gabrielle*

      I left a two-year consulting gig about a year ago, mainly due to the travel. It can be a lot of fun to fly around meeting & helping people, but ultimately it wore me out & cut into my personal time too much. I went back to a similar position as I’d held before I was consulting, so you can definitely do it. Having the breadth of experience that comes from working with several companies is a big bonus for some employers.

      Travel assignments are generally given as a portion of your work hours – eg 25% travel means you’ll be on the road one week out of four, and working out of the home office the rest of the time.

      Then there’s the concept of “billable hours” or “utilization”. That’s the amount of time you’re working that can actually be billed to a client. 65% is ideal. 85% is pushing it. 100% = RUN AWAY.

      FWIW, if I am ever in the position to take a traveling consulting gig again, here are the questions I’d ask:
      – When am I expected to travel? They may want you at the client 8am Monday – 5pm Friday. Depending on your airport situation, this could mean that your weekends get eaten up by traveling.
      – Where will I be going? All over the country, or regional only? Research airline schedules for your local airport for some of the locations.
      – If I am required to regularly travel outside business hours, will I be compensated in time off or additional pay?
      – How far in advance are client visits scheduled? e.g. they call you on Saturday and say “Be in Dallas at 8am Monday”
      – Who arranges the travel? (I prefer to schedule my own flights.)
      – Do I have my choice of airline & hotel?
      – Do I keep my FF miles/rental car points/hotel points?
      – Is there a requirement to take the cheapest flight, no matter the number of layovers?
      – Any other rules about flights? e.g. “no direct flights” – no, that’s not a joke, unfortunately.
      – Is there a per diem, or limits on food expenditures?
      – Do I get a corporate credit card for my expenses?
      – If not, how prompt are they with reimbursements? They should be in your next paycheck, no floating the company for six weeks. Try to find this one out from other employees.
      – Expected utilization (see above)

      Good luck & I hope it works out for you!

      1. BRR*

        Wow thanks so much! This is so helpful!

        I think the billable hours and utilization is turning me off right now. The glassdoor reviews are also consistently not great and I’m not sure the salary would be wonderful either.

        1. hermit crab*

          If the travel isn’t turning you off, I wouldn’t worry too much about the billable hours or especially about glassdoor. In my experience, you have to apply an extra grain of salt for reviews of consulting firms, because so many of the negative reviews are people who just didn’t understand what they were getting into when they took a job in a consulting firm. For example, I work for a pretty great firm — I mean, it’s not perfect, but people routinely stay for their entire careers, working their way up the ladder — and the glassdoor reviews are really negative. They’re all like, “What do you mean, I need to do unpaid overtime?” Uh, that’s called being exempt plus not billing your coffee breaks.

  132. Jennifer*

    Well, the good news of the day is that (a) they are ordering me a new $365 chair, and (b) I got to be out of the office for an hour and a half of ice cream social, and got 3 bowls of ice cream, 2 of them from the big boss, and got free fancy zipper binders. Woot! Also talked to big boss about bringing back staff picnics/retreat days, he sounds interested.

    On the other hand, it’s still pretty much impossible for my supervisor to do a lunch with us and it’s been…supposed to happen in December. “June is a bad month for me….” They’re all bad months! I think we just need to give up on the idea and do something else. Like, I dunno, 15 minute ice cream break.

    1. AnotherFed*

      Yay for ice cream! That’s absolutely the sort of team bonding/morale building I can support!

  133. AnotherFed*

    Just a vent… I went on vacation last week, and the minions ran amok while I was gone. The work they turned in was crappy and incomplete, so reviewing and dealing with it this week is sucking up so much time (due to all the issues to point out for correction) that I can’t get my own pieces of analysis done. Someone managed to break one of the tables in a relational database, so that’s got to be fixed before anyone can get any useful data out of the system. And we’re still short staffed because I haven’t been here or had enough time to hire the three more people we need. TGIF!

    1. danr*

      Hope you didn’t hide the errors and problems when you got back. They need to know not to do that again.

      1. AnotherFed*

        Nope, marked it up and sent it back. It just took forever because of all the mark ups. Sadly, it was mostly Word docs, and track changes just isn’t as satisfying as redlines!

        To be fair to the minions, we’re short staffed and scrambling to get work out, and most of them don’t have the experience to understand where the balance point is between getting work done fast and getting it done well enough to be useful.

  134. arabookworm*

    Hi!

    I’m about to graduate college in August and I’ve been looking for a job for a couple of months, and landed several interviews. I accepted a verbal offer for a job that starts very soon. Monday, in fact. That job is 50 hours a week and salaried, and it’ll be high stress, especially since I’m finishing up my final class and will be done in the middle of June. However, I just got an offer to do a second interview for another job that is paid hourly and is a more reasonable workload. Both jobs are temporary (the first is 7 months, the other ends in August). I’m especially concerned about the long hours and stuff because I have severe depression and anxiety and am not sure I’ll be able to fit in therapy and down time with the first job.

    So, my question is, how do I handle this? Is it too late to change my mind about the job? Should I not be doing this interview? Other advice?

    1. Graciosa*

      I wrote a bit about this in response to a related question from Not a Real Adult above, and you might want to read those responses (not just mine) for some insight into how people perceive backing out of accepted offers.

      You do not bail out on the job you accepted in order to interview or accept the second one for all the reasons I discussed above. Assume it’s not an option.

      I’m a little torn in your case about whether you withdraw from the job you accepted because of the mental health aspect. You should not risk your health for work, and I think backing out sooner rather than later would be better for the employer than investing in your training if you *know* you can’t perform the job successfully as a result of known issues.

      In the absence of the second opportunity, would your mental health issues lead you to withdraw from the job on Monday? If so, you do so as quickly as possible, with profuse apologies, and accept the damage to your reputation.

      On the other hand, I presume that there was a time when you thought you could do this job and accepted it – before you starting thinking about how much easier another option (which is now off the table) would be. If this is a case of last minute jitters or a preference for the road not taken, I think you push forward and honor your commitment while taking every possible precaution to intelligently manage your mental health.

      You’re going to need to do some serious soul searching about your capabilities and motives in order to figure out where you really stand and how to proceed.

      This will also have longer-term implications for your career – if your mental health situation limits the type of job you can succeed in now, I wouldn’t expect significant changes in the next two or three months. You need to cross any similar positions (hours and stress levels) off your list of prospects for the foreseeable future. Backing out of the job you accepted will severely damage your reputation, and if you get another similar opportunity you cannot afford to repeat that decision.

      Again, it may be the right choice under certain circumstances, but if that’s the case you have one chance to learn your lesson. Do not ever accept an offer for a job you are not ready, willing, and able to perform.

      Best wishes.

      1. Arabookworm*

        Thanks for the feedback. Honestly I think I just panicked when I g this phone call because WHAT IF IM MAKING THE WRONG DECISION AND EVERYTHING GOES WRONG AND THE WORLD ENDS??? (like I said, I have an anxiety disorder). However, unless something really significant were to change I’m almost definitely sticking with the job I already accepted. It’s more relevant to my field of study, I’ve done internships and volunteer work that’s directly related, and it’s longer term. I just needed a little reassurance that it wasn’t a terrible call. And honestly, if the job is so stressful after a few weeks that it’s damaging to my mental health I’ll reevaluate.

        At this point it’s too late to back out of this interview because its tomorrow morning (well, this morning technically) so I’ll cons it good practice and move on.

  135. Rebecca*

    Our office bought powerball and mega millions tickets this week, and it made me think – what would I do if I didn’t have to go to work every day? I know we won’t win, but what if?

    I’d do volunteer work, foster animals for service members who couldn’t take their pets with them during deployment, and help tame animals at the SPCA. I’d help people who needed help with budgeting and life skills. I’d mow someone’s lawn who was hurt or just needed a hand.

    There are so many things I’d like to do, but working M-F with a longer and longer commute (all due to the endless construction season here) doesn’t leave much time on weekdays, and weekends are a blur of housework, laundry, lawn care, visiting parents, getting groceries, trying to cook things for the upcoming week, and then it’s right back to work again.

    What would you do if you didn’t have to work?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      What a great question. I’d hang out with students, try to learn how to actually write, take a bunch of classes on different stuff (you can take the girl out of the small liberal arts college…), and get enough sleep.

      I work in a mission-driven nonprofit, where for a lot of people the work really is what they would do even if they weren’t getting paid, but we still talk a lot about your “side hustle” — remembering that you don’t HAVE to get all your fulfillment from work. I like that…even if I end up not quite having time for my side hustle!

    2. Steve G*

      Helping animals sounds good. I volunteered on a farm cleaning stalls/feeding/watering….and it was really stressful to see stalls full of crap and dirty hay and hundreds of animals to be fed…….but it was very, very satisfying to see things getting done. I wish that could be a job. It would also be nice to have more time to solve the issue of why animals end up on farms for abandoned animals in the first place. And it is also great exercise, lifting 40 pound buckets of water, pushing 100lbs of muck in wheelbarrows, carrying hay bales, etc. But now that I’m in NYC, there is no farm……

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would cook a lot. And travel, if I could afford it. I would go to a lot of movies– I love the movies, but I hate crowds and tickets add up, so I would go to during the day. I used to take 2 days off work every October just to go to yoga and to the movies.

      But I would want to work at something, so I would probably teach a few college classes. I used to want to be a professor, but I don’t have the discipline for a PhD. I do, however, have work experience and a master’s degree, so one or two classes in my field wouldn’t be completely out of the question. I haven’t pursued that as a career because the pressure outweighs the money by a huge margin, so if I didn’t have to worry about tenure and I didn’t have to worry about money? I’d totally do it.

      I would also either get involved with a group that cares for pets of seriously ill/elderly people, or I would start one myself. I know there’s a group like that in NYC, but not sure about my new home. If I were ever to become very ill (spit 3 times and run in a circle), my poor doggy would lose out on his walks, and that’s not fair to him– so I would walk a few dogs and play with them, buy food and toys, and generally make sure the patient has one less big thing to worry about.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      I’ve been fantasizing about this so much lately. I’d buy a bar so I could run trivia night there at least twice a week, with good wines and better cocktails than one tends to see at pub quiz bars.

    6. danr*

      Sleep… it’s amazing how easy it is to get a good 7 hours a night when you’re not putting in 12+ hour days (that’s counting commuting time). After that, everything else just falls into place.

  136. AnnieNonymous*

    I’ve been thinking about leaving my current job for a while. I’ve only been there for a little over a year, but the working environment is so toxic and abusive that I don’t think Alison or the rest of you would fault me for walking out with no notice (our boss frequently calls us f*ck!ng r*t*ards, he has strangled his son in front of us in the office, we are in blatant violation of FDA protocol and are probably going to get shut down eventually anyway, etc…). There are four people on my team, and 3 on the other, plus the boss. It’s a very small company. This week, one of my team members had a serious conversation with our boss about possibly quitting, since the stress and expectations of the job are starting to impact her home life and her marriage. Plus, she’s trying to get pregnant, and she knows she’s not coming back after maternity leave, so it’s sort of a done deal in her head. Then today another one of my team members announced that she’s leaving for a new job. I feel like my hand has been forced a bit. I’ve been looking for new jobs (and I have a great reference for a company that is currently looking for people, so I’m cautiously optimistic), but I feel like if at least one of my teammates leaves before I do, I have no choice but to follow her out the door. I certainly can’t stay there while we’re short-staffed, especially knowing how the boss reacts when we aren’t able to read his mind.

    Has anyone else been through something similar? I don’t care a whole lot about keeping the reference, since my in-team supervisor is the one who’s leaving, and I’m sure I could list her if needed. Do you know any good ways to keep myself motivated to keep going to this job and collecting paychecks until I find a new one?

    1. AnnieNonymous*

      I would also like to ask your opinions on how to talk about this during the “why are you leaving your current job?” part of interviews. Is it Kosher to plainly state that the environment is toxic? Do I mention the FDA violations and that I don’t like working somewhere that operates that way? Do I mention that I find the whole industry (my current one, not the one I’m looking to move into) to be unethical?

      I don’t want to come off as being overly critical or like I’m ranting or selling anyone out, but I can also see the benefits of essentially saying, “I’d like to work in a positive environment, and for an ethical, legitimate company.”

      1. Graciosa*

        I really can’t see the benefits of this kind of statement.

        Criticizing a current or previous employer (or boss) is almost always a bad move – it makes the prospective one wonder what kind of bad things you might say about them if you were hired.

        Mentioning that you now find the whole industry unethical sounds like someone working for RJ Reynolds and suddenly deciding that they can’t support of the tobacco industry. Why did you accept the offer and then stay there?

        The exception to criticizing an employer would be limited to the equivalent of Enron (when it was still intact but headline news), or a situation involving indictments or FBI raids or something similar. And you need to have left, or perhaps have agreed to stay on for a specific limited time to assist with the wind-down.

        I’m not saying any of this is fair, but please remember that the interviewer does not know you.

        There are delusional people who make similar statements in interviews because *any* person who disagreed with them and *any* employer who failed to appreciate them was cruel, abusive, and downright evil. Do not let the interviewer wonder if you might be one of them. You are competing against other candidates who don’t present this risk.

        The traditional way of handling this question is to attribute your interest in leaving to your desire to take your career in a new direction / expand your skills / pursue this fascinating opportunity with NewCo that was just too exciting to pass up! Alternatively, you may be able to mention a poor culture fit, misalignment or strategy or the like – but without implied criticism of the boss or employer as the cause.

        Employers do expect you to understand and follow professional norms of conduct, and not criticizing your boss or employer is one of them.

        I’m sorry you’re in this situation, and wish you the best in your search.

        1. AnnieNonymous*

          It’s a bit unfair to ask with such aplomb why I (or anyone) would accept a job and then keep it, even as I grew to hate it. I needed the money and I didn’t have much experience. It took me the past six months to hone in on a few jobs that seem like they’d be better fits. I didn’t know about the FDA issues the last month or so.

          1. Graciosa*

            I wrote that in response to your specific question about stating that you find an entire industry unethical, and I stand by it.

            Unethical is a big deal. Unethical refers to the kind of conduct that no decent human being could ever participate in. There are some things so abhorrent that any person with a shred of honor would rather starve in the streets.

            So yes, I do question why you would accept and keep a job in an *unethical* industry. Either the industry isn’t really unethical or your personal moral code permits unethical conduct if the price is right. Neither of these possibilities makes you an attractive – or even acceptable – job candidate.

            The way to avoid this kind of reaction is to use an alternative explanation for your job search consistent with professional norms. Culture fit, for example, is considered a more neutral way of describing why you can’t stay in your current job, but there are other ways to frame it without criticizing your employer in ways that jeopardize your odds of leaving.

            Good luck in your search.

      2. Curlicue*

        I just read a helpful article on The Muse website on how to answer “Why are you Leaving your Job?” Google it. Hope it helps and good luck!

    2. Frustrated and Confused*

      If you’re really thinking about walking off the job without notice, rethink that. I did that two months ago. It wasn’t a conscious decision, and it was an act that came after months and months and months of “keeping myself motivated,” just pushing through, and making it from one proverbial Friday to the next. I didn’t realize I was suffocating at the end of a rope. A co-worker said something, I had an out of body moment, and walked — an hour into my day on a proverbial Thursday. I really wish I’d have been honest with myself and just given notice, even a month earlier, but I was too proud and too scared. There is nothing gratifying or exonerating about it. There’s no closure. I interview in fear that my manager will not keep his promise and say that I left for career opportunities, instead of job abandonment, and I fear that, if asked about my notice period, he’ll say that there wasn’t one. (There’s a longer story here, if you can’t tell.) Employers will call your past employers, not just the references you hand them; don’t give this boss of yours ammo against you. It sounds like he’ll use it.

      To answer your second question, say nothing negative about your employer. Ever. It’s hard, but be as positive as you can positively be. I have HORROR stories about toxic, abusive environments, but not one of my interviewers knows. I’m answering the “why did you leave” question by saying, “For the past six years, I’ve been working 65-75 hour weeks, and I made a difficult decision to voluntarily take a step back, take some time to recharge, and really evaluate where I want to be professionally. I am very proud of my accomplishments at Previous Employer, and I learned so much from them, but it was time for me to move on to a more balanced environment. With that said, your company is doing X, Y, Z, and is a company that A, B, C, and that is very intriguing to me. I would love to be a part of those challenging projects and help build toward Y.” Own it. Don’t shy away from the question. Practice your answer A LOT.

  137. Rebecca*

    Sorry for the second post, but I’m just winding down for the day. Absolutely no time to read AAM at work any more. There’s just no downtime, and my workload keeps increasing. Still on the hunt for another job, and putting up with the current situation as best I can.

    I’ve worked for 2 companies in my working life (over 30 years) and I’ve posted before that I am pretty desperate to escape my job. I just found out the last manager I had at my first job will probably be at the same picnic I’m going to next weekend. Hopefully he’ll be true to form, and ask “how’s it goin’?”, and I can say OK, but I’m hoping to apply at ACME Company in the Anvil Department, and since you’re my previous manager, I’ve listed you on my references. So, if you get a call from The RoadRunner, that’s what it’s about, just a head’s up, and leave it at that. If he asks why, I’m planning on telling him my role has changed drastically from the one I was hired to do, and I’m hoping to make a shift back to a more familiar role. Not going to monopolize his time, or whine on about how miserable I am, just plan to smile and be positive. It really can’t hurt at this point.

    I left on good terms, gave proper notice, did a good job, etc, and the president of the company told me he’d tear up my resignation letter at quitting time on my last day if I changed my mind (I didn’t). I didn’t regret my decision until 8 years later when the company I went to was sold to a larger company, and it’s been a miserable 4+ years. It’s not going to get better. I’m tired of trying to make it better, so it’s been time to move on for a while now. It’s so true – employees don’t leave companies, they leave managers.

    My ducks are almost in a row. Resume done and sitting in My Documents, and in DropBox in case of computer failure. References lined up. Old manager will hopefully get the head’s up in a week. Ready to apply. I even have a Liz Claiborne suit and skirt, new shoes, a Liz bag (from a thrift shop :) ), and am making plans to have my hair trimmed and perhaps highlighted. For the first time in a long time, I sense a ray of hope.

    1. IndianSummer*

      In some ways, I could have written your post. I just want to wish you the best of luck! Getting everything ready and lined up does wonders for your confidence. ;)

  138. Update from Trying to be Mature*

    I know this is late and nobody will probably see this but I posted a couple of weeks ago about how I was having difficulty being mature about getting a new boss with less experience than me who was given her job because of who she knows and not what she knows. Well I am happy to report that I don’t have to worry about it any more! I got a new job at another organization with a higher title and I am now part of the management team. I could have quit before this woman even starts but I am staying one extra week to show her where things are. Her first week is my last week! And I could not be more excited!

    1. danr*

      Good for you!!! Congratulations, and staying the extra week to “help” will only work in your favor.

    3. BRR*

      Congratulations!

      Although if I remember right did you ever give the new boss a chance?

  139. Cassie*

    Just have to vent about this: our manager is thrilled that we will be getting a new boss this summer, because (in her mind) she will get to re-exert her power and be back in charge. Our current boss is fair-minded and very nice – he listens to differing opinions before making decisions, and it drives her crazy that he doesn’t just automatically agree with her.

    She’s already mentioned that once the new boss comes, she will have to “re-educate” all the staff and how she’s going to be super strict about everything. It’s gotten a few people worried about what will happen with our work environment. Personally, I think the manager is (and has always been) all bark and no bite. She certainly does make the atmosphere pretty miserable but if you can just ignore her, you’ll be okay. She thinks she can rule with an iron fist – she wasn’t able to do it before, and I really doubt she will be able to do it in the future. I feel so bad for my coworkers as they are directly under her in the chain of command and are deathly afraid of getting fired.

    It’s just frustrating.

  140. Dazed Confused and Often Bemused*

    Long time lurker, but need advice/vent.prescription for meds. My program lead, Mz. Barney the Purple Dinosaur, is horrible on many levels, and luckily (or unlucky) I have had worse. I can usually handle her inability to do her job or socially interact with co-workers and the public but Mz Barney has found a way to get under my skin. She gives positive feedback for everything in a sing-song “Good job.” I mean EVERYTHING. I handed her a post-it from my desk drawer and got a “good job. That is so good,” from her. Is there a way to gently tell her that her “gooood jooobs” are really fake and demoralizing and she has not a clue on how to give positive feedback to employees? I came up with a game for the office that each person has to keep track of how many “gooood joooobs” each person gets and put money into a fund for a end of summer party. What’s worse is she has recently been moved to be closer to her team by TPTB, so she sits 5 feet away.

    1. Frustrated and Confused*

      I posted this above, in response to another post. When I was a new manager, I was much more comfortable giving positive feedback than constructive feedback, and I was full of “good jobs” and “good works” (but for actual projects that were getting done, not post-it notes). One of my reports came to me and very kindly (and hesitantly) said, “You know, you don’t have to say ‘good job’ or ‘good work’ for everything we do. You’re the most positive manager we’ve had, and we’re not saying we don’t want you to be positive, but it means more when you don’t say that stuff as much.” It was tough to hear, but I wanted that kind of feedback.

      Do you trust your lead enough to have that conversation? Does anyone have a good enough relationship with her to do that?

    2. Ruffingit*

      That would be incredibly irritating. Maybe you could phrase it thus: “Ms. Barney, you don’t need to tell me good job for things that are routine, but I appreciate the sentiment.” And maybe if everyone said something similar, she’d get the message?

  141. IndianSummer*

    A little late and my second post to this thread – I have lost all motivation to make an effort in my current position, and I feel like an imposter. I have been through four managers in two years. The first manager hired me for my skill set, but after that manager left, I have been failing miserably at being successful in my position. I can go weeks without having any contact with my current manager.

    For the record, I am bored out of my skull and tire of spending the entire day trying to find things to do to make it look like I am productive. It makes for really long days. I have a project here or there, but mostly I just twiddle my thumbs. I have spoken to previous managers about not having enough work to do, but I feel like I still stagnate. One of my managers actually put on a recent performance review that I was underutilized by the team, but nothing has changed to make me more utilized. I am terrified that my position will be eliminated.

    I know it is time to get out, but I am afraid I am going to take my current lazy, lack of motivation, imposter syndrome self to any new job opportunities that may arise. Any advice for ensuring that I have not become a lazy fraud that will take my bad habits elsewhere?

    1. Fruitfly*

      For slow days at work, whenever you are done with a project you can say to your managers that you are available if they needed help on anything. If there is actually no work to do, you can try to arrange your work files or work email to improve organization.

      Since your position might be eliminated, you can open yourself up to more projects and discuss with your managers about work training opportunities. That might make the day more busy.

      1. IndianSummer*

        Thanks for the feedback! I had the opportunity to help out another department under the manager who wrote that I was underutilized. However, when we reorganized under the current manager, those duties were removed as the current manager wanted me to focus on our department.

        I am also afraid to bring up my lack of work (yet again) because I do not want to give them a reason to eliminate my position. So I basically feel stuck in a negative loop.

        1. Delyssia*

          I can’t tell from what you’ve written here, but have you explicitly talked about your lack of work with your current manager? And did you ever tell him that you were helping out the other department because you were underutilized?

          I get why it’s scary to bring this up, but if your manager figures out you’ve got very little to do and you haven’t said anything, that’s going to look so much worse than if you’ve at least tried to get more to do.

          Aside from all that, are there free training opportunities you could take advantage of? Online videos, webinars, books available, etc. For instance, my company has a subscription to Lynda.com, and they have training videos on pretty much any software you can imagine. If that’s an option, pick something that either would help in your current job or just sounds interesting, and make yourself an expert. If there aren’t company-provided options like that, I’d recommend searching for free online tutorials.

          1. IndianSummer*

            Thanks!

            In the beginning (four months ago), yes, I spoke to my manager about my lack of work and we came up with a handful of projects, which is why the manager no longer wanted me helping the other department. I completed some of the projects. I have a monthly task, but it only takes a few days each month. I am waiting on the manager to approve a proposal I wrote for another project (I reminded the manager it was still pending last week). I just don’t know how many times I can tell them to give me work! We do not have one on ones very often, and my manager is not physically present in my office.

            I so wish we had a subscription to Lynda.com! I would be soaking up all of that opportunity. Instead, we have an internal training tool with very few software training modules. I have considered getting my own subscription to lynda.com just for personal growth. This may be a good time to do that.

            Aside from all of that, I have a phone interview coming up (fingers crossed!) and I have applied for a different internal position in my company. Ultimately, I have made up my mind that it is time to move on. I just fear I have developed quite a lazy attitude due to going so long without meaningful work.

            1. IndianSummer*

              P.S. From what I can gather, my coworkers are either making work for themselves (I don’t feel I have enough knowledge to do that) or goofing off most of the time.

    2. Mz. Puppie*

      I was in your same position. It was a-w-f-u-l. I was running out of internet every day and resorting to walking aimlessly around the building. People think that sounds great, getting paid to do nothing, but it isn’t. My therapist told me that being bored is actually just as stressful as being overworked, just in a different way. It’s corrosive to the soul.

      Don’t worry about being permanently changed into lazy, you’re not. I just started a new job that has plenty to do, where I go the whole day without ever once checking my Facebook, and it’s the best. I’m loving it and I’m coming home every day feeling fired up. Once you get a new job where you’re actually being utilized, you’ll snap right back.

      1. IndianSummer*

        It is such a relief to hear that! Seriously.

        Everyone says to enjoy it while I have nothing to do, but that is near impossible. I had not pinpointed it as being stressful. However, now that you mention it, yes, it is very stressful! I am constantly opening up random windows just to make it look like I am working. Every time the door opens, I tense up wondering if someone is going to see me doing nothing.

        I keep trying to motivate myself to be a better employee and thinking there must be something I can do. Unfortunately, I fail miserably on a daily basis.

      2. voluptuousfire*

        +1! I’m in a temp role now and I’ve been asked to stay on twice(which is great!) but it’s gotten to where I string whatever projects I’m given out to fill up the time. What I really need to do is speak with my manager to see if we can put together a list of what needs to be done and I can check them off as needed. I really hate having to ask around for something to do. I’m constantly feeling bored and unchallenged and when I’m bored and unchallenged, I tend to slack off a bit. Luckily this gig is over in two weeks.

        I totally hear you about being bored is as stressful as being overworked. In order to feel successful, you need that balance.

  142. Fruitfly*

    I though this week’s question about the “Work Education Reimbursement” was very interesting. I also have another question to follow-up or on a related note to that:

    I have disclosed that I am going to school to some people on my work team. Can I can avoid telling them the cost of my education?

    I am not sure if they can handle the information. My education is on the expensive side and my workplace is reimbursing most of it.

    Is there a way to avoid the answer or answer it in another way if my team ask about my education cost? Maybe I can say a range or that the cost is similar to so and so university.

    I can avoid disclosure of my education to most people in my company, but when the coworkers heard me speaking to my boss about my education, I do not think I can avoid disclosure of my education pursuits when they ask me right after I spoke to my boss. Sometimes there are supervisors who worked with my boss closely, and it would be difficult not to disclose to them when they ask if I am going to school.

    1. Snoskred*

      Fruitfly – If asked, I would simply reply either “I don’t know” or “I’m not sure how much this course will end up costing me, there are a lot of factors which could increase or reduce the price. I’m just going to deal with it as it happens.” and leave it at that, though you could expand on the factors and go on for as long as possible, if you want to try and bore the people into not asking again.. :)

      EG, you could try these tangents and add in anything you might know to make it longer.. Well, it depends on so many variables. Let me list some of the possible variables for you. If I take the four year option it might be X, but only if Y happens. I don’t think I can do the course full time, so I will have to do it part time, and that might make it more costly, if I have to purchase textbooks that can be really expensive but I am hoping I can buy some from previous students. Then of course there is stationery and printing costs..

  143. Anonyby*

    PSA:

    For the love of all things, if you’re bringing your kids to an office for a meeting, please either bring someone to watch them or watch them yourself! The receptionist is not a free babysitter!

  144. schnapps*

    Ok, there seem to be a lot of smart people here, so I thought I’d ask a question.

    I work in local government. A couple of years ago, I applied for a job that I really wanted in a city I wanted to work for. I went through the interview process (which is a whole other story) because I’m qualified for the job (I already do about 80% of it at my current job). During the interview with the City Manager and the Department Head (the position I was interviewing for is the Deputy Department Head), I got the feeling there was some tension between them. I did really well in the interview process and was a couple of reference checks away from getting the job. Then radio silence.

    A couple of weeks after the interview, I get a call from the HR department saying their needs changed and they went with an internal applicant. Ok, fine. Then I find out the Department Head quit when they posted her position a few weeks later. Hiring internally is normal in this case because until you hire the senior position, you just want to maintain what’s going on and an internal is the best person to do this.

    So the position I applied for a couple of years ago is now posted again. The City Manager is the same, but the Department Head has changed. The job description is exactly the same. So my questions:

    Do I use the same cover letter? The only reason I ask is because it got me an interview in the first place, so I’m torn between “don’t fix it if it’s not broken” (and my own natural laziness) and “a new cover letter for each job application is a good thing)

    Do I mention that I applied previously for the position a couple of years ago? Would it be at all relevant?

    The City Manager used to work for my organization and our paths did cross fairly frequently due to the nature of my job. Is it appropriate for me to contact him outside of the application process?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I do work on the local level. But that does not mean I actually know about this stuff! ;)

      I would go ahead and apply. I would update my resume and update my cover letter.

      Depending on the particulars of the situation I might add to the cover letter that I interviewed with the City Manager a few years ago regarding the job. But I am not saying I would definitely include that. Go with which ever feels like the best route.

      It sounds like you feel reasonably comfortable with the manager, so in that case I might mentioned that I applied for the opening. Let him take it from there. If he has a conflict of interest he may have to change the subject, so just be gracious and let him change subjects. You have done your part in mentioning the application. Just settle back and see where it goes.

  145. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

    OK, 1,500 comments in I’m hoping someone may still be around who can provide advice for a time-sensitive situation that just cropped up.

    I applied for a (part-time, seasonal) position at an institution I’d *really* like to work for. I had an interview on Friday 5/22, which I think went reasonably well, and they said their timeline for getting back to candidates was two weeks—so I expect to hear back by Friday 6/5.

    This is a pretty entry-level job (though it sounds like a lot of fun and a great way to break back into the kind of work I want to do long-term), so I imagine they are inundated with qualified applicants.

    Just today I went to the institution’s website and saw they’ve posted a different (part-time, seasonal) position that’s a little less entry level and more in line with my longer term goals, including preferring experience with a volunteer management system that I actually *have experience with*.

    I would still be very happy to be hired for Job 1, but I’d like to apply for Job 2 as well—is that “done”? How do I do that? If I submit a cover letter for Job 2, should I mention that I was interviewed for Job 1? Under other circumstances I’d consider just waiting till Friday to see what I hear about Job 1, but the sticky thing is the posting for Job 2 expires on 6/5. Yikes! (If it matters, I got the vague impression the vacancy for Job 2 may be unexpected; the description of Job 2 lists the “date needed” as April 13th…so I’m wondering if someone ended their employment early or something, and getting Job 2 filled quickly may be a priority?)

    I really want to handle this as professionally and coolly as possible, because like I said I would be very happy to get my foot in the door at this particular institution.

    Thank you to anyone who reads this and can offer some perspective!

    1. Graciosa*

      Yes, you can apply, and yes, you mention interviewing for Job 1 in your cover letter. While you’re very excited about the prospect of Job 1 (because of factors X and Y), you also saw this opportunity to apply for job 2, which is also a great fit because of (your belief in its mission, your special experience in the volunteer management system, etc.).

      Read Alison’s advice about cover letters, and remember this in the future as an example of why the really good ones are never form letters.

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