open thread – June 26, 2015

by Alison Green on June 26, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,213 comments }

{ 1,213 comments… read them below }

  1. Folklorist*

    Hi everyone! I need to be prepared…how bad am I about to look?
    After two years of job-searching, temping, and contracting, I finally found a great job 8 months ago as an editor for a small member association. Things were going great, I was expanding my skills, and loved my work, and then they took out my biggest project—half my job—citing budget constraints. (They insist that they love my work and it has nothing to do with that.)They said that I would be in charge of this other huge project, which is just now wrapping up, and then I’ll work more on our association magazine, which we publish 8x/year.
    Well, there was a company meeting on Wednesday where they said that we were all massively in debt with no way of knowing how to get out. They’re talking about cutting our publications in half (only publishing 4x/year). My excellent boss is advocating for us and trying to get an ad salesman that will only work on commission so that we can keep going. With the sudden number of closed-door meetings, though, I’m not so sure that my position is safe. I’m by far the most junior person here! My two coworkers were doing all of the publishing themselves before I came in to help, and if the Powers that Be cut down the workload enough, there is literally no reason to keep me.
    How bad will I look for leaving after 8 months? I was really hoping to be here for a couple of years at least! I’m afraid that with all of the temp/contract stuff before this job, I’m going to look like an epic job-hopper. But I also REALLY don’t want to wait until I’m laid off to start looking! Advice? What do I say in cover letters or interviews to show that this isn’t because I’m flaky without badmouthing my company?

    1. Malissa*

      First don’t wait to start looking. Way better to do it now. Second, employers will understand leaving because of a lack of funding for your position.
      Good luck!

    2. Thinking out loud*

      I think you should start looking now. As long as you don’t have other short stints on your resume, I think you can say that your work has been reduced because of funding constants and that you’re looking for a job that is more stable and can keep you busy.

    3. BRR*

      You have good reason, best of luck! Temp/contract stuff doesn’t come off as job hopper and neither does this.

      1. QAT Contractor*

        This is 100% true. Contract work is just a signed number of months of work, that’s all. It’s not that you are job hopping, you are just filling a role for the client at that point in time. Same goes for temp work.

        Looking for a job now is your best bet. The fact you were only at this employer for 8 months shouldn’t hurt you. If you want to address it you could, but it would come across as potentially bad mouthing depending on how you present it. If you indicate there are some financial difficulties without going into detail, I don’t think it would be so bad.

    4. Dasha*

      I’m not sure how you address this in a cover letter – maybe someone else can give some good advice there but I agree with the others that you should start looking. IMHO this is out of your control and not really job hopping. I think when you start to get calls you could maybe say something, “I love my current position but unfortunately they are looking to reduce headcount here.”

    5. Dan*

      Temping and contracting don’t “count” against you in terms of job hopping. You job hop if you leave what is expected to be full time employment on an ongoing basis after X number of years (in my industry, certainly two years.)

      If you had a series of full time jobs that you left after a short period even through no fault of your own, that probably counts against you. People are going to think that you were let go for cause, but it got disguised as a layoff.

    6. JB (not in Houston)*

      I don’t think you’ll look bad. You’re not being flighty. I am pretty sure Alison has previously talked about how to address this, but I’m not sure how to search for it.

    7. TootsNYC*

      It is not “badmouthing the company” to say that they had budget problems and cut staff. It’s totally honorable of them, actually. Sucks for the employee, but it’s not a heinous thing for a company to do.

      It’s also completely understandable–especially in this economy! It’s not like we’ve had decades of “companies never lay people off!” We have this impression, as a culture, that in the ’50s, people held jobs “for life,” but that probably wasn’t true then. And even if it was, layoffs have been commonplace for all of my professional life. Thirty years.

      If you’re worried that you PERSONALLY have too many short stints (I’m in publishing too, and I’ve been there! I was willing to work at startups, so I got laid off a lot; plus with tiny staffs, the exact skill mix is crucial, so you can find a specialized position being eliminated in favor of a generalist or a different specialty–and there goes the copy & production editor job!), you can put the reasons you left on your résumé.

      Date Range Title, Company (laid off for budgetary reasons)
      Date Range Title, Company (position eliminated for reorganization)
      Date Range Title, Company (startup magazine folded)

      And absolutely, start looking now. The whole thing can come crashing down; you ALL may be looking for a job.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Also not “badmouthing” them to say your workload was reduced, and you FEAR they will cut headcount. Because even if they KEEP you (I got laid off once when they were targeting higher-paid staff and keeping junior people!), your work will get exponentially harder, so whether you think you’ll be targeted or not, who wants to work on a sinking ship?

        Nobody’s going to think you’re flaky; they’ll think you’re prudent and proactive. It would actually make a good impression on me, to be honest. I’d think, “Aha! a savvy, proactive person.”

        Make a rule for yourself: no more than two sentences about your old job.

      1. Folklorist*

        Thanks everyone! This is what I thought, too–I just really dread going back on the job search again. I like my job!

        I already have a couple of good leads and am talking to one company tonight. Unfortunately, it would mean moving back where I grew up, which I’m not thrilled about. Trying to keep an open mind, though!

        1. Artemesia*

          The shoe hasn’t quite dropped so you have a little time to try to get what you want, where you want. Hope it goes well. It does sound like you need to move as fast as you can.

    9. JenGray*

      You won’t look bad just explain that your job was downsized. It’s not your fault that the company is having financial issues. I would just say that the company reorganized and your job was eliminated. I don’t think that you really have to go into any more detail than that. I would focus more on the work you did and as long as you speak positively about the job (I loved my work, coworkers, boss- even if only moderately true) most companies won’t care. As long as the company is willing to give you a good reference and say essentially the same thing (job was downsized) than you have nothing to worry about. The temp/contract stuff isn’t anything to worry about either as long as its not completely random (i.e. your an editor/writing and you were doing dog walking) because I think that just taking any temp/contract work doesn’t help you. But if stuff is related you have nothing to worry about.

    10. Creag an Tuire*

      If you’re worried that the temping stuff looks bad on a first glance, I think AAM has said it’s okay to consolidate gigs under the same agency, e.g.

      – Contractor (OfficeMonkeys Ltd.) 2011-2014
      — Teapot Monkey, (Wakeen’s Teapots) Feb 2014-Aug 2014
      — Spout Monkey, (Bubba’s Teapots and Shrimp Shack) Oct 2013-Jan 2014
      etc.

    11. Purr purr purr*

      You wouldn’t look bad at all. You have to look after yourself because no-one else will do it for you. Most likely your colleagues are now looking to, even if they aren’t saying that.

    12. Observer*

      “my employer has made it clear that there are major fiscal issues that threaten my job, and have already cut my hours and pay significantly.”

      That doesn’t make you look bad – you’re not just leaving a job, you are being pushed out.

    13. lawsuited*

      You don’t look bad for leaving because your company is in a poor financial position and doing restructuring. I wouldn’t address it at all in cover letters, but in interviews you can just say “I’ve loved working at Small Member Association, and I’ve really improved my skills in X and Y while I’ve been there, but funding is an issue and I think restructuring is around the corner.” Then launch straight into why you want to work at the new employer. I had to start interviewing under awful circumstances (my boss had a terminal illness but refused to get treatment and wind down his practice), and so I cited “instability” at my current workplace as once of the reasons I was looking to move on and everyone understood and didn’t ask follow up questions.

      Also, start looking now.

    14. Lisa*

      What is job hopping? In terms of length? Some people think multiple jobs with under a year each.

      Job A – 4 months
      Job B – 8 months
      Job C – 2 months

      Others think over a year is acceptable with all 3 at 1-2 years each, but could still be job hopping if its always 2 years. I had a boss who said anything less than 4 years is job hoping though. What is acceptable?

  2. Anony for this*

    So with the good news of the US Supreme Court there always seems to be some people who will be negative. I eat lunch with a group of people, some at my level, some above, but all have been there longer than I have (except the interns). I work in an incredibly conservative field. When the Caitlyn Jenner thing happened, at lunch they were all saying things like “ew, this is disgusting” or sharing memes like his photo on a Fruit Loops box. One of the interns was the biggest culprit, but a manager was the one showing the photo. Finally I said “I just don’t like making fun of people just because you don’t agree with them. It’s hurtful.” the manager replied “well, he put it out in public. He was asking for it.”

    So obviously I’m concerned about lunch today. I like my coworkers, they are genuinely good people but have beliefs that are very….not my thing. We’re a very laid back bunch, and we do make jokes about things like a coworker there having a lot of 1s in her pocket so obviously she’s a stripper. Jokes like that. I have a good relationship with everyone.

    All I want is something to say when the inevitable talk comes today. I think I could easily say “I hope you’re not saying this because you think I agree with you.” (thanks to whoever here said this, I think it was Alison but I’m probably wrong!) to the people at my level and below, but the managers and people who have been there 20, 30 years…I don’t feel comfortable with that. I have to work with my coworkers daily. I like them when we aren’t talking politics (though in my opinion this is a civil RIGHT not politics).

    2. Nikki J.*

      I may make other plans today. Why put yourself in the position to have to come up with something when you know it’s going to happen. Maybe I just have less tolerance for behavior like that, but there is no place for it. Realizing how glad I am working at my new job today where people are celebrating vs sitting at their desks steaming because of this news.

    3. Thinking out loud*

      Yeah, can you just skip lunch today? I’m loving the news today, but I know not everyone feels that way.

    4. CB*

      Can’t you skip lunch? Tell them you have to run errands or stop at the bank or something. Why surround yourself with negativity.

    5. Artemesia*

      My mother was a very conservative person politically and we didn’t have any known gay members in our family in those days or in their friendship circle, but when this topic came up I remember her saying ‘you know, it is hard enough to find love and a person to go through life with, who am I to judge someone else’s love.’ I always liked its gentleness and its support for the choices of others.

      2. S*

        Even for someone who does have queer friends and family, this is so important to remember. No one’s relationship and no one’s love should be judged simply because of who it’s directed towards.

        1. Artemesia*

          Oh agreed. I am not old myself and have gay friends, gay family, transgender friends and trans gender in laws and had gay and transgender students, colleagues, parents of my girl scouts etc etc. It is easy for me to see gay people as people. I was just always impressed that my otherwise rather judgmental mother was able to see gay people whom she didn’t know as people as she lived most of her life during the period when people hid in the closet.

      3. AVP*

        That is really sweet! FWIW my parents are ordinarily very conservative but support gay marriage. I had no idea until my mom mentioned in passing that their dance teacher is gay, has a partner, and was trying to navigate the civil union thing.

      5. Windchime*

        Not to boast, but that’s exactly what I have said to my kids, too. It’s true; it’s hard enough to find love in this world, so who am I to judge when someone else finds it? Live and let live; that’s my motto.

        Related note: I have a lot of bigoted cousins, apparently. My Facebook exploded today.

    7. OriginalYup*

      Personally, I’d just be very matter of fact, change the subject where possible, and simply excuse yourself if it gets too heated. If people are just stating that they disagree with the decision for reasons X, Y, and Z, or they’re worried about the results, that perfectly fine conversation in my book. You can discuss differing opinions as long as its all respectful. But if they start with in with rhetoric or ragey nonsense, I’d probably try to change the subject. If unsuccessful , I’d just look them in the eye and say, “You know I completely disagree with everything you’re saying, right? Maybe we could talk about ABC instead.” Everyone’s entitled to an opinion and all that, but it doesn’t mean workplace lunchtime is the best environment to be airing them.

      And re their Caitlyn Jenner comments, I’m pretty confrontational about stuff like that, but I would have looked at the folks involved said “Don’t send/show me things like that. It’s cruel and makes me think less of of you.” The end.

    9. nona*

      Eat somewhere else for now. They’ll run out of things to say about it soon.

      I’ll be hanging out either by myself or with other LGBT folks for the next couple of days. :)

      1. Violet Rose*

        London Pride is tomorrow – the timing is amazing :)

        To the OP: nthing the “eat elsewhere today” comments. Or, if you find yourself wanting to leave halfway through and the weather’s nice, “I think I’m going to take nice stroll outside” is a good way to buy yourself a few minutes Away From There.

    10. Steve G*

      I like Tinker’s related wording yesterday not to do this anymore: “Let’s have a pseudo-academic discussion about whether I should be respected as a peer of all other adult humans or whether I should have to appeal to others for consideration that most other people would be substantially offended by having questioned.”

    11. Anony for this*

      Unfortunately I have to eat there. Eating at your desk is frowned upon (I’m hourly and management would be concerned I wasn’t getting a break), and I take a half hour lunch so no time to go to get something. I’m hoping it will happen at the 2nd half of my lunch and the first half we’ll just talk about weekend plans.

      Although, I suppose if someone says “Did you hear about gay marriage?” I can quickly chirp in “Yeah! Can’t believe it took so long. The wedding industry will be booming and the economy will really profit from this! What a great thing for everyone to get equal rights on something that doesn’t affect straight people like us!” And maybe that will shut them up.

      1. Salatree*

        Do you have a family member who is gay? If so, mention them. “My cousin is gay and she is thrilled to be able to marry her long-time love.” People are more likely to behave themselves if the issue is personal.

          1. Zillah*

            Yeah, I would talk about a cousin or a friend or something, whether or not you have one. It’s a reminder that this isn’t political fodder, it’s something that will make a tangible, positive difference in millions of Americans’ lives.

      3. Natalie*

        You could just lie about running an errand. Put a sandwich in your bag, say you have to go the bank, and go for a drive while you eat your sandwich.

    12. Anonymous Poster*

      I am very conservative and do not agree with the SCOTUS’s findings recently. And I haven’t been able to stand both liberals and conservatives gloating/ranting about these things in my workplace the past couple of days too. The workplace is not where we get to soapbox about our politics, it’s where we accomplish a mission and do our jobs.

      To me it sounds like a day where you have a lot to do and need to eat at your desk. Or your lunch won’t agree with you and it’s a day to find lunch elsewhere. Or whatever works in your particular environment, maybe you need to eat lunch later than everyone else.

      2. Zillah*

        I can understand that. But, at the same time, for people who are dramatically affected by rulings – particularly rulings like today – I think it’s not necessarily realistic to say “Keep it at home.” I haven’t been able to stop crying since the ruling, because it means so much to me on so many levels. If I was working today, I don’t think I’d be able to hold it in. This transcends politics, and I think it’s a little self-centered in this particular case to begrudge them their joy over a decision that can change their lives or the lives of people they care about because it’s something that you politically disagree with, even though your pov is reasonable in general.

        1. Zillah*

          Or, to put it a different way: people who have supported marriage equality have a lot more skin in the game than you do. Let us have our day.

        2. Anonymous Poster*

          Please see my response to LBK. The intent of my post wasn’t to tell you to keep it at home. It’s that it sounds like this particular situation is where people expressing their political views is getting out of hand, and though we disagree politically, we agree that this situation is bad.

      3. LBK*

        Being excited that you’re no longer considered a second class citizen under the law is not getting on a political soapbox. Try to imagine that you know some gay people (because you probably do!) and just enjoy their happiness about something good happening to them like you would when a good thing happens to anyone you care about.

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          It sounds like, based on the original poster, that this transcends someone being happy/unhappy with the ruling, and into outright ridicule of the ruling. I could be projecting – since at my own place of employment, there have been yelling matches as this is a very emotional subject. That’s the big issue I’m trying to comment on.

          In the workplace, I don’t care if someone’s happy or unhappy with it, I care when it impacts the ability of people to work together. And it sounds like that’s happening in this case.

          The point of my bringing up my being conservative is that I’m approaching my answer as someone that does not support the decision, but agrees that what’s happening in this situation is bad and should not continue, and providing some ways to try and protect one’s self from the bad situation.

    13. Lucky*

      Stop joking about your coworker being a stripper. That’s not “laid back,” that’s sexual harassment.*

      Then when the “teh gays are rooning our country” say one of these two things:

      “I not only disagree with you, but it makes me think less of you when you make such bigoted statements.”

      or

      “Yeah, Joe. Now that the Supreme Court has made gay marriage legal, you and Doris will be forced to get divorced and you’ll have to marry a man. We (or ‘you and Dave”) should probably pair up before all the good guys are taken. You know, like picking teams for dodgeball.”

      *Sex work should not be shameful, but I assume you’re joking about her being a stripper because you believe it is shameful and gross, not out of reverence.

      1. Anony for this*

        No, no, I definitely don’t think sex workers as shameful or gross. The comment was just “Oh, you got a lot of ones! That stripping is paying off!” and I think she said something like “Yeah, my husband can’t afford to give me more so it’s just all ones!” and someone else said something like “You’d make more at [stripjoint down the street]”

        2. Lucky*

          Your coworker may be totally fine with that joke, or she may be playing along so that she isn’t perceived as a a humorless feminist whiner. Of course, you know here better than I do, but I’ve been the woman who played along with sexist jokes because complaining didn’t feel safe or prudent.

          1. Anony for this*

            No, she’s the one who actually started the joke in the past. I understand where you’re coming from though, and I’ve had a few instances where I had to tell them to knock it off because it took a step too far, but she is probably the one who instigates it the most (usually to herself).

    14. Ad Astra*

      I will be treating myself to a celebratory lunch today (even though I didn’t really do anything, SCOTUS did). I think you should do the same.

      1. Ad Astra*

        Ah, I missed your response that you have to eat there. In that case, I like your wording. You could also just change the subject entirely. “Hey, did you hear about the change they’re making to TPS reports?” or even “Ooh that looks yummy, what are you eating?”

    15. TootsNYC*

      “We’re a very laid back bunch, and we do make jokes about things like a coworker there having a lot of 1s in her pocket so obviously she’s a stripper. Jokes like that.”

      Jokes like that are not OK, by the way. That’s sexual harassment.

      And you know what? It’s crude and rude. Unsavory. Juvenile.

      Maybe you could be the voice that says, “I don’t like crude jokes like this. Can we stop?”

    16. Anonsie*

      This is a pretty good example for why people like to keep the boundary for what’s ok to joke about at work way, way before any of the stuff you guys usually talk about. It keeps it from bleeding over into this with people afraid to say anything because “but we’re always laid back about jokes” or something.

      1. Anony for this*

        Fair enough. I’m the newest one there, and I won’t be able to change the culture. We’re undergoing renovations so we only have one lunch table. There is anywhere from 7 to 15 of us there at any one time, and I like interacting with a few of the regulars that aren’t crude. Unfortunately you can’t get away from the entire lunch table conversation.

    17. JenGray*

      I agree with everyone that I would just find something else to do at lunch even if it is just taking a walk. This is a very tricky situation because it sounds like this stuff actually is sexual harassment. I agree that the workplace is not the place for politics. Phil Robertson (from Duck Dynasty) said that its a myth to think that if you love someone you have to agree with them whole hardheadedly. I actually agree with him about this- Just because you have people in your life doesn’t mean that you all need to believe the same things or love the same things or have the same life. Diversity is what makes life interesting. To me the decision today is wonderful but only because I don’t think that people should be allowed to tell others who they can & can’t marry (or love) and I don’t think that those that can get married have exactly done the best job with it either (50% divorce rate)

    18. A Minion*

      Why not just offer your own opinion the same as everyone else seems to be doing?
      Them: “Can you believe they legalized gay marriage? There goes the country!” (Or whatever they may say)
      You: “I think it’s great! Now people who love each other can marry without fear of legal repercussions or lack of legal protections.” (Or, again, what you may want to say)

      We all have our opinions. Surely adults realize that no matter what opinion you may have of any particular subject, there is surely someone, somewhere that holds an opposing opinion. I learned that lesson the hard way. I said something particularly insensitive about a subject that I feel very strongly about once and my co-worker shut me down quickly, but it was in a gentle way – she simply asked me if I would feel comfortable saying that same thing if there were someone dealing with that issue sitting right in front of me and, though it was quite uncomfortable for me, I realized that she was right and it was an insensitive thing to say. It didn’t require that I change my beliefs or opinion, which I have not, it just made me a little more aware that I’m not the center of the universe and my opinions aren’t, in fact, always the gospel truth.
      Sometimes a gentle, but firm reprimand is all that’s needed. (Disclaimer: I realize not everyone is going to take criticism well and sometimes they get defensive when their views are challenged. I get that.)

    20. Clever Name*

      As I’ve gotten older, I’ve cared less about preserving the feelings of bigots. They are free to have their opinion and I am free to have mine. I actually got into a discussion with a coworker who said that he thought being gay was a choice. My uncle had recently died, and I actually started crying when I said, “Well, you may think it’s a choice, but it’s not. Why would anyone choose a love where they are persecuted against and denied rights (until now)? I lost out on a relationship with my uncle for 30 years because he was afraid that my family would reject him for who he is. The sad part is that it didn’t matter to any of us, but because of people like you, he never could be sure.” That shut him up, and I hope it made him think just a little.

    21. Observer*

      I haven’t read the whole thread, but if I had to eat with these people, I would probably stick with “I really don’t think this is a work appropriate conversation.”

      As for the other stuff, I think that two appropriate responses are “just because someone put something out in public doesn’t mean we have to discuss it.” and “He put it in public but others who this affects didn’t.”

    22. Student*

      I enjoy making people like this uncomfortable.

      My favorite technique is to say, “My grandmother is a !” and look sad and horrified that someone would insult your dear old granny.

  3. Malissa*

    I got the nicest rejection from a company that I didn’t even interview with. Nice to know there are still some classy companies out there.

    1. Ad Astra*

      I wish more companies realized what a positive impression they leave when they can reject someone kindly. In the long run, it’s a great recruiting move.

      1. Relosa*

        This. I just don’t get why people don’t understand that bridge-burning works two ways.

    2. Steve G*

      Care to share it?

      I still analyze them to death even though you guys keep telling me not to. I was perplexed by this one from an energy management company recently because I met every criteria (and most people out there wouldn’t because they wanted industry specific experiences.

      “We regret to inform you that you are not being considered for this position.”

      Um, OK. It made me think that they should have one form letter for applicants who don’t qualify at all and one a little less terse for people who meet the requirements, custom wrote a cover letter, and stood a reasonable chance of getting an interview.

      1. Malissa*

        hank you for the interest you’ve expressed in Initech.

        Your qualifications have been carefully reviewed. At the present time, no position is available that fits your resume profile. In the event our employment needs should change, we will be pleased to contact you.

        We appreciate your interest in Initech and wish you success in your search for new career opportunities.

    3. Anx*

      It’s too bad I don’t have much discretionary money, because I am a Forever Customer at a company that took the time the send me a rejection email.

  4. AmyNYC*

    If anyone remembers past questions I’ve asked in the open threads, I’m going through a bit of a quarter-life crisis (one week I was asking advice on getting a promotion, the next it was about leaving my company, and then a few weeks later it was about moving to a new city….)
    Right now, the plan is to move to a new city next summer. So I’ll stay at my decent but-I-don’t-love-it job for another year and use that time focus on taking my professional exams (AREs – Architectural Registration Exams).
    At my performance review a few months ago, my boss (Partner A) offered to pay for my exams (it will cost them about $1500) but didn’t say anything about staying for a set amount of time afterwards. About a month after that, at an all company meeting Partner B said you can take paid days off for exams without using vacation time but only if you stay for at least a year after finishing them. (Those days would be taken out of your unused vacation days that get paid out when you leave).
    Here’s my ethical question – Obviously, they’re offering the time and reimbursement as an incentive to stay with the company long term. But no one said anything about repaying exam fees if I leave, so is it wrong to take as many exams as possible (on the company’s dime) while I’m still here?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Personally I don’t think you should take the exams and training at you companies expense, unless you will be there for a little while afterwards so they get some benefit out of the investment they made in training you. By the sounds of it staying for a year after your exams would be reasonable.

    3. Sunflower*

      What is the likelihood of getting your exams paid for at any new job you take? If it’s not very likely, I say take the test on their dime and see what happens. It’s too hard to predict the future. Hopefully everything works out and you can leave in a year. See how you feel then. If you really feel bad, you can always offer to repay it then and I don’t see any hard feelings coming from it.

      If it’s likely New Job will pay, then you’re still dealing with a double edged sword. Offering to pay for your own exam now or saying you don’t want to take it will look weird and/or bad. Is there anyone at your company who left not long after taking the exam? They might be able to help you dodge the question or come up with a better solution

    4. CorgiGirl*

      I don’t think there is anything wrong with doing it, as long as you commit to staying at least a year after taking the exams.

      1. VictoriaHR*

        I think she’s saying that she will NOT be staying for the year; she would prefer to take the exams, let the company pay for it, and then leave shortly thereafter.

    5. AmyNYC*

      Does it make any difference that a) I was planning on taking the exams before the company offered to pay? and b) I didn’t ASK them to pay, it was offered (seemingly with no strings attached)?
      Another concern – Partner A will ask why I’m not submitting reimbursement forms for my exams and I will have to tell him I’m thinking of leaving before I’m ready.

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        I think it’s reasonable to infer that the compamy are offering to pay for you exams on the basis they will get some benefit from having spent the money on you.

    6. Thatguyagain*

      Isn’t there a legal principle that says any ambiguity is interpreted in favor of the person who did not draft it? I think that a similar principle applies here. Take the exams, let the company bear the expense. The company has the policy in place to entice employees to take on additional abilities. Utilize it. If it becomes an issue, then it’s on your management to address it. Ethically, it may feel wrong to let someone else pay your way, but this isn’t a personal expense coming out of your friends pocket. It’s a business expense that the company has put into place to encourage you to stretch your abilities.

      1. Sunflower*

        I am on this side here. Double check with the company on the policies of taking the exam and then leaving. TBH- if your company doesn’t have a policy against it than either they don’t care or it’s their own fault.

      2. lawsuited*

        Contra proferentum really doesn’t apply to verbal agreements and discussions like the ones the OP describes. I think what matters here is the reasonable expectations of the parties. OP’s boss (by being explicit that in order to take paid time off to write the exams OP needs to stay for a year after) has made it clear that the company is not putting up money gratis for the OP to write the exams; they expect her to stay for a year in exchange.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      It sounds like a standard educational expense contract. We pay, you stay a year. Just keep tabs on when your last reimbursement was so you know how much you will need to pay back if you leave. I consider this a benefit your employer provides.
      If you stay for a year, the company is getting a benefit from you new skills/education. Your employer is investing in your work, not just you as an employee.

    8. Emmie*

      There are 3 parts to your question: is it ethical, is it permissible, is it professional? It’s probably not ethical to do this with the intention of leaving. I’d argue that it is an employee benefit, and you seem to keep changing your mind. A person should probably not hesitate to take advantage of a benefit if she is truly undecided about a decision to move or stay with the company. Yoishould look to the documents that you sign to see if leaving is permissible. It isn’t professional to leave shortly after using these benefits. You need to be comfortable with the potentially negative impact on your reputation and references. Good luck with your decision. I remember this time in my life, and it’s normal to be uncertain. I learned that times are not like they were for our parent’s generation where you pick a 25 year career, stay with a company and collect a pension. There’s more flexibility need from employees in careers now and the important thing is to build transferable / marketable skills and to constantly build your skill set.

      2. Jake*

        It is ethical, probably permissible and not professional.

        I’m pretty comfortable in all 3 of those assessments.

    9. Diddly*

      Not sure if this is the case with your company, but they may make you refund them what they paid if you don’t stay a certain period of time after the course. I think you should possibly let them pay, as you’re possibly signalling that you’re going to leave by not letting them – but have the money ready in case they want it refunded if you do leave.
      I would also say that like you mention you’ve gone through several different scenarios of what you might do, and have so far made no definite plans so there’s the potential that you’ll change your mind and have missed out on an opportunity. But go with whatever sits best with you.

    10. TootsNYC*

      Partner B said you can take paid days off for exams without using vacation time but only if you stay for at least a year after finishing them. (Those days would be taken out of your unused vacation days that get paid out when you leave).

      They have a plan in place for what to do if you use this benefit and then it turns out you decide to leave. So it’s not unheard of for this to happen (use the benefit, leave early anyway). They’ve had it happen before, and apparently they consider the change in PTO to be an adequate “consequence” or reimbursement. It doesn’t sound like they’re really angry beyond words at the idea that someone’s plans would change in the year following the exams.

      So look quietly to see if there’s something about repayment of fees.
      And if there isn’t, either:
      a) be prepared to reimburse, on the theory that it’s exactly the same as the PTO;
      or
      b) ask someone, citing the PTO info as the trigger: “I’d like to take the exams, but I wonder what happens with the fee if for some reason I need to leave the company before a year is up. Is there a specific policy?”

      Take the exams.

      Also–leaving next year is your CURRENT plan. If you take these exams, and your work changes slightly, or you get mentally re-energized by the learning and testing process (or by a sense of appreciation of your company’s policy), YOUR plans may change. Or, just get delayed a little bit.

      Take the exams.

    11. JenGray*

      I think a year is quite a while away and you never know what would happen. I say take the exams- they are part of your professional development now and so will benefit you beyond your current job. Its good that you are aware of the ethical questions surrounding this but the AREs will help you no matter if you move or not. Also, even if you don’t stay quite a year sacrificing a few vacation days is not the end of the world. Employees do trainings etc. all the time and then leave a company soon after doing it and don’t feel bad so you really shouldn’t either. I know its hard (I would feel exactly the way you do) but companies plan for these types of things (i.e. the reason for the rule about the vacation days).

    12. AmyNYC*

      Thanks for all the advice! To clear a few things up:
      As commenters have noted, I am sort of in flux right now, and there’s a chance I will be here longer than I think I will.
      It is unlikely that my hypothetical new job will pay for tests (based on where I’m looking and the size of company I want to work for)
      There was no contract or any written statement about reimbursement and/or repayment, this has all just been verbal.
      Since I’m not 100% sure I’ll be leaving, I’m going to take the exams and submit reimbursement paperwork as if there’s no plan to leave. In the event that I do leave, I’ll keep track of what’s been reimbursed and have it ready to repay if they ask for it back.

      1. PegLeg*

        Good plan! I would at least ask beforehand what the process is as far as repayment is concerned if you do leave, and, like a commenter above said, cite the PTO policy as a reason for asking. Just so you have some clarification and an idea of what to expect, and so you don’t end up feeling totally cheated if you leave and get a letter three months later saying PS you owe us $3500. Not that I have any experience with that… ;-)

      2. NoCalHR*

        Yay you for making a reasoned and reasonable, pragmatic series of decisions. And good luck with your exams! FWIW I did something similar at a OldOldJob, knowing that our then-current plans were to move out of state in the next 18 months. Tracked what I’d received for potential repayment, cleaned out all of our closets – and SO got a better job in the same area, and we stayed. Bullet dodged, junk gone, training accomplished. Win-win-win!!

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I think this is the best route to go. I would add, make the offer to reimburse them without them having to mention the topic first. You will want a reference from them, so you don’t want them to have a bad thought in their heads because of the exam expenses.

        Since you will be there a while longer, maybe you can discretely keep an ear out to find out what others are doing, what is expected and how this all plays out. When it comes time to leave you may have a much better handle on this question than you do now.

    13. AdAgencyChick*

      Something tells me just because the boss hasn’t said it verbally doesn’t mean there won’t be a dotted line to sign on once it comes time to actually have the fees reimbursed. I would ask what the terms are, and act accordingly.

    14. infj*

      I was just in this exact situation. I passed my last exam, submitted my receipts for reimbursement and signed a contract saying that I would pay back the reimbursement if I left within a year. There was no mention of any strings attached when they first offered to pay for my exams. I just scheduled my 4th interview (hiring process rant excluded) with another firm. I’ll take the job if they offer it and pay back my exam fee reimbursement. It’s the only way to do it. Its suspicious if you dont ask for the money. Further, your new job and move may not work out like you expect. It ended up taking me three years to complete my exams. Got pregnant and had a baby, also failed and had to retake one of the exams.

      1. infj*

        Also, my office didn’t pay until I passed all of the exams. That was never articulated in the original conversation either. That might be the case at your office too. At any rate, it’s a reasonable question that does not seem suspicious if you wanted to revisit the conversation with the partners.

  5. Sunflower*

    I had interviewed for a job I was overqualified for back in March that didn’t end up working out- the position was canceled. In May, they contacted me again to ask if I was still interested in the company. I said yes and the hiring manager informed me she was going to try to get approval to open up a higher up position aka one that fit my experience. The recruiter told me to check in the next week with her. I checked in and she told me she had not heard anything back from the hiring manager. She said she’d check in with her and as soon as there is movement, she would let me know. This was 5 weeks ago and she never got back to me with an update or decision either way.

    Naturally I want to check in again. I’m 80% saying don’t do it but 20% of me thinks its okay. what do you think?

    2. Thinking out loud*

      I think you can say, “I assume that means there hasn’t been any movement, but [the job] and [the company] seen like a great fit, so I’m hoping we have an opportunity to move forward.”

    4. Christian Troy*

      Eh, I probably wouldn’t. I think if someone wants to give you a job they just don’t forget it or you. Plus it sounds like if he had something to tell you, she probably would.

    6. JenGray*

      I vote yes to and just say something along the lines of just checking in on the status.

  6. Boogles*

    Boss establishes new meeting with admins at our various locations supposedly to better communication and work on establishing better practices. I mention we should have meeting minutes and action items. Boss says great. Draft them up. I draft them up, boss decides not to send them out. Is it just me, or is that not the quickest way to make sure a meeting doesn’t foster communication and is completely pointless?

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Ask her why. Perhaps the format of the minutes wasn’t what she was looking for.

      1. Boogles*

        That’s just the way management is here. Not super keen on transparent commuication. They may actually have to be held accountable to a deadline or deliverable.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      I don’t know – my boss doesn’t like using an agenda and we don’t take minutes unless it’s a board meeting or RFP-related. Some people take notes, some don’t. I have found that having an agenda/taking minutes makes absolutely no difference either way (in my experience, but I’m sure others will disagree).

      1. Judy*

        Until this job, I’d not seen minutes for a meeting at work. I’ve seen action item lists with maybe a summary, but typing the entire time during the meeting creating a transcript, not ever.

    4. JenGray*

      Not sure if you can do this but I would perhaps just send them out to the people that attended the meeting instead of giving them to your boss to send out. I had a boss that would edit my staff meeting minutes- she would change the wording of things so that it benefited her and didn’t reflect what was actually said- so I just started sending them out to everyone that attended the meeting. This way there was no way to edit before people saw them.

    5. AE*

      Sounds like boss’s boss wants boss to establish better communication but boss either can’t or won’t. How lovely that your time is worth so little to boss

  7. Kathleen*

    Neurotic question time! I have an interview this afternoon which I’m quite excited about. But I keep finding typos in my application materials and it’s driving me crazy. Is there any professional, appropriate way to bring those up and ensure the interviewer that I’m generally neurotic about accuracy? Or is it best to just forget about it and assume that, based on the fact that I have an interview, it doesn’t matter that much?

    For what it’s worth, the hiring manager’s emails had plenty of typos of their own …

    1. TheExchequer*

      I would leave it alone unless they bring it up. Maybe they didn’t even notice! :)

    2. Thinking out loud*

      I hate that! When I found minor things, I didn’t mention them – I think other people are generally not neurotic enough to notice, so I’d only be bringing their attention to the mistake if I mentioned it. (I had a stray bullet point with no text at one interview that made me crazy, but no one mentioned it and they offered me the job.)

    3. Ollie*

      I can sympathize–my cover letter has a whole paragraph devoted to how detail-oriented I am, yet my last job application had at least one typo in the online form I had to fill out (it was related to salary and the interviewer asked me about it). I was horrified. I’ve noticed typos when looking at other applications too.

      I wouldn’t bring it up to the interviewer unless they ask about it (it seems like a bad time to be explaining away mistakes/making excuses when you want to focus on more positive things). You got an interview, so the typos couldn’t have mattered that much. A lot of people don’t even notice minor things like that (you even said the hiring manager had plenty of typos in their e-mail!).

    4. voluptuousfire*

      As a fellow neurotic, annoyingly detail-oriented person, I’ve found most people really don’t care all that much about little typos. They just accept it as a minor detail in the scheme of things.

    5. Other Jen*

      Based on my experience as an interviewer I can say that just because a typo isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it wasn’t noticed or doesn’t matter. If the topic of attention to detail comes up I think it would reflect well on you to let them know that you noticed it.

      1. fposte*

        I lean the other way. I’d be okay with somebody saying “I realize I got your name wrong in my cover letter–I’m so sorry” (my email makes it look like my last name is something else, so that’s pretty common) or anything else that’s similarly factually significant. But just random typos, or “I noticed several typos in my application materials, and I wanted you to know I noticed” doesn’t really improve things–either way the typos didn’t get caught when they were supposed to, and that’s the goal. It would be really weird to me if a candidate took the occasion to try to emphasize their usual attention to detail.

        It’s not necessarily an application-killer, but the package you send is the representation you get. And it sounds like yours did the job it was supposed to, so interview away.

    6. Lily in NYC*

      Something very similar was discussed here recently, and general consensus (Alison included) was to not bring it up.

    7. Kate*

      Thanks everybody! I think the interview went pretty well, and as for the typos, well, they didn’t bring them up and I didn’t mention them haha.

    8. Mander*

      Ugh, it’s so mortifying when this kind of thing happens!

      As a sideline I started editing other people’s academic papers, long before I was finished with my degree. I have a natural talent for proofreading, and I enjoy it. I even feel like I’m pretty good at it.

      But man oh man, I was careless with my own thesis. One of my examiners actually asked if I was dyslexic because of all the typos! I could have died.

  8. Carrie in Scotland*

    I’m so glad to see The Hive!

    I have an interview next week (wish me luck!) but in the thank you for confirming your interview email, there was this:
    ‘It may be helpful for you to know that it is not our practice to ask candidates to wait until a decision is reached. You will therefore be free to leave when your interview has concluded.’

    Mind is blown.

    I’m thinking something like X Factor auditions, a room with all the candidates, a “we want YOU”, camping out before the interview (I’m kidding) but seriously – what!? Surely the fact that it’s in the email means it’s happened before….

    1. Malissa*

      Now I want you to hang around just to see what happens. lol. Not really but I would love to know the back story on that one.

    2. Mimmy*

      Huh??! Of COURSE you would leave when the interview is done! Unless I’m totally misinterpreting this?

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        I know, right!? I would never think to hang around afterwards – you just come in and do your interview and then leave.

        I’m wondering if it was a cultural thing…

        1. Merry and Bright*

          Agree, Carrie! The call of coffee or chocolate is too loud to ignore when that interview is over!

    3. Amber Rose*

      Wait. They have a problem with people waiting around for same day decisions? Enough of a problem to email about it?

      Whaaaaat.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        It would be worse if the decisions take 2+ weeks, and you’re expected to wait. :)

    5. Sunflower*

      HUH? My first instinct is that they are trying to say do not repeatedly check in, do not wait for us to make a decision, feel free to take another job is one comes up first. But the second line is throwing me off. I wonder if people have camped out in the lobby assuming a decision would be made right after the interview? But is there ANY place that is common practice?

    6. Diddly*

      Hahaha – maybe they had a super awkward interviewee who refused to leave… How weird. Or maybe they decide on the day!

    7. TheLazyB*

      Not a school post? Teachers usually are all there all day and the unsuccessful candidates get to see the successful one called in to be offered the job.

      I would hate to be a teacher.

      2. Carrie in Scotland*

        Nope, uni.
        Thanks for the luck!

        (I too would hate to be a teacher, I currently work in an education dept = potential teachers)

    9. Future Analyst*

      Haha, what a strange thing to include in there. As opposed to…? You moving in for 3 weeks while they decide?? So strange!

    10. Elizabeth West*

      Good luck, Carrie!!!! *crosses fingers and toes*

      Hmm, that’s really weird! I wonder if they did this in response to specific incidents, or maybe it means “don’t call us; we’ll call you,” and it’s just worded in a peculiar way. :\

    11. Clever Name*

      Weird. I agree, it must have happened once before. That reminds me of the offer we received on our first house. The contract had a line in there about the “seller removing all debris” from the property before closing, and I was insulted as well as baffled. Our house was spotless and showed well, and the only thing I could think they might possibly be referring to was our compost pile in the corner of the garden. When our real estate agent asked about it, the buyer’s agent said that one time the sellers left a ton of junk and trash behind when they left, so he had that line in all of his contracts as standard language. Yeah.

      1. fposte*

        And that was how my seller was. In fact, he was going to leave a dead refrigerator in the garage, and my realtor beat him into submission by noting that only one refrigerator (the actual working one) was listed in the contract.

        1. Anon1234*

          Interesting…I just sold my place and all the contract said was “broom clean.” I only left things directly related the house (extra paint, extra flooring, appliance manuals), and left a note of explanation with other useful information. The thought of leaving more never crossed my mind.

      2. Windchime*

        I will have that language in any future house I buy. I bought a cute little old house in my previous town — great location, solid old house, nice yard. They left so much CRAP. I didn’t think to put it in the contract because of course I thought they would haul off all their junk! They left a huge bin of crappy, broken toys on the back patio. Miscellaneous junk in the garage (half-bottles of car washing soap, hubcaps for a VW, scrap lumber, etc). There was an entire room in the basement that had a broken clothes rack, broken tools, and other junk. And, inexplicably, a drawer full of CD’s in the dining room.

        So yeah, next time I will have that written in.

  9. Anonercopter*

    I wanted to say thank you to everyone who provided suggestions about how to resign from a contract-to-hire job. My boyfriend put in his resignation and, while his current job tried (hard.) to retain him, he is delighted to be leaving and going back to the type of work he truly enjoys (his old job).

    Even more good news is that his leaving made old employer realize how frequently his area was overlooked and how little effort they were putting into retaining employees in his department. They took a good, hard look at compensation and benefits for all workers at my boyfriend’s level (not just him) when determining what to offer my boyfriend to return. Now, the same benefits that my boyfriend will be receiving (higher pay, a schedule for receiving cost of living adjustments, more generous compensation for continuing education etc.) will be extended to the rest of his department, as well!

    2. Future Analyst*

      Love that the company wants to treat EVERYONE well! That’s fantastic news, thanks for sharing. :)

  10. saro*

    Any recommendations/advice to start an employee evaluation process? New company, just hired new people and it’s high time we started. I’m overseas and it will be new to them so the easier/simple the better. Thank you!

    1. Thinking out loud*

      Performance reviews? At my huge company, we set goals in the beginning of the year and discuss them with our managers. After six months, we discuss the goals and our performance against them. If we’re doing different tasks, we update our goals. At the end of the year, we update again if necessary and then we’re judged against our goals.

    2. GOG11*

      I’d recommend checking out the Management Center (I think Alison used to work there). They offer templates for a lot of stuff. Go to managementcenter . org and then hover over “tools” in the right hand corner. There are quite a few resources that might work under “Developing People” and under “Roles and Goals.”

      2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        I want to second that. My team uses those tools All. The. Time.

        Also, buy Allison’s book “Managing to Change the World”. Lots of great stuff in there. I’m in the process of starting a book club/discussion group with other nonprofit managers about this book because it has been so helpful to me and several of my peers.

        The book is geared toward nonprofit managers, but I used it in a class I taught where many people were far outside of the nonprofit filed, and it got rave reviews all around. There’s not really much that doesn’t apply generally, the nonprofit part is more the context/examples given.

        2. GOG11*

          I love that book! I have my student workers find a job they’d like to do and answer common questions in reference to that job, including what challenges the role would pose. I also have them think about how they can improve their skills in that area. One of my students said she has trouble delegating, so I “assigned” the section that covered that area in the book (I borrowed it from the library, and I can’t recall what the chapter was called exactly). We ended up having a really good discussion from it!

    3. AndersonDarling*

      On the flip side, we have new hire surveys that we give at 60 days and 90 days to make sure we are doing a good job with on-boarding. The feedback from these surveys could let you know what your new hires are expecting with reviews and performance goals.

  11. Oatmeal*

    I currently work for a not for profit, and have had some interesting conversations recently about having a job that you are “passionate” about (for this question, let’s assume lower pay, longer hours, and higher stress go with this – which is true in my current field) vs having a job that you are ok with and cultivating your interests/passions outside of work.

    What do you think? Was this an active choice for you? Or is it a false dichotomy?

    1. Rat Racer*

      I wouldn’t go so far as to proclaim “false dichotomy” because generally speaking, not-for-profits offer lower salaries — although I had thought that part of the deal was better benefits – not worse. But there’s so much variation! And especially in my field (health care) it’s hard to distinguish between for-profits and not-for-profits in culture, salary, mission.

      After working for non-profits for the first 15 years of my career, I took a job with a for-profit company. The salary is crazy good (I still think I’m overpaid), but the hours are long, I’m working for a department whose mission I’m passionate about within an organization I’m on the fence about (good guy? bad guy? depends who you ask). Truly a mixed bag. However, and most importantly, my colleagues some of the brightest, most accountable and kindest people I’ve worked with so far, and that makes a huge difference. The culture here is great – and that’s not something you can split down the middle based on profit status.

      My best advice is to ignore profit status and focus on the criteria that matter most to you personally.

      PS – if it makes you feel better on the double posting side, I just totally failed at my first AND second attempt to respond to you.

      1. Oatmeal*

        Ah, interesting. The kind of work my company does (it’s a very specific arts thing) does not exist outside of the not for profit (NFP) sector, so for me it isn’t a matter of working for this company, or a similar for-profit company. There is nothing even close to analogous in the for-profit world. My organization is the only one that does this type of work in the region.

        I had an informational interview this week with someone who works for a NFP that I admire and respect, and we had a long conversation about this where he basically told me that although he loves the organization and enjoys his job in theory, in practice it is grueling. He encouraged me to find a job that pays the bills, and cultivate my artistic practice outside of my job.

        (For reference my current role is kind of a unicorn – great benefits, relaxed hours, I get paid very well for what I do… but I’m at a dead end and there is nowhere for me to advance within the organization. I’m not being challenged in my role at all, and feel like my work brain is atrophied.)

        1. Rat Racer*

          Have you thought about working for a Foundation? One that gives grants to organizations like the one you currently work for? Total shot in the dark – don’t know if that’s a possibility.

          1. Oatmeal*

            Haha – that’s actually almost exactly what I am doing now! I’m working for a large granting agency.

            (Working in this capacity has actually drastically cut down on the number of organizations I’d actually apply to as well – once you’ve seen the sausage being made, it is hard to unsee.)

            1. Rat Racer*

              I’ve heard this, actually, from several people who do foundation work. I’ve never worked for one myself. I have also heard that they provide excellent free snacks :)

    2. OriginalYup*

      I switched from for-profit to non-profit with full knowledge that I’d take a big pay cut because I specifically wanted to do a particular kind of work in the nonprofit field. I imagine it’s pretty common for people to enter this field because of personal commitment to a cause or perceived social value. But the passion that’s often expected in this field — long hours for lower comparable pay, going above and beyond because you care about the issue — can lead to poor quality of life, burnout, and groupthink. I believe it’s really important to have a mix of true believers and people who are bit more removed if you’re doing cause-based work, both to get a balance in perspectives and also to dial down any smug unhealthy “if you REALLY believed in what we’re doing, you’d work harder/faster/cheaper/forever” nonsense that can creep in.

      Also, I think some people look at work as what they do to pay the bills and keep food on the table, and passionate interests are what they do in their private time, e.g. through volunteer work, so it doesn’t get tainted with that “ugh, another day at the office” feeling. For example, reading is my favorite hobby, but I would never want a career that involved it heavily (editing, publishing) because what I love would get all muddled in with daily job drama. I can certainly see someone wanting to preserve the best parts of what they love by making it voluntary rather than making it into a career.

    3. Kathleen*

      I think it’s kind of a false dichotomy. There are some people whose passions line up with (highly or not) paid employment, and to those people I say – go forth and rock your jobs! But there’s a lot of people who just like their jobs, or who don’t mind their jobs, and that’s to say nothing of the people who are in jobs they don’t like but can’t leave for whatever reason. Basically: feelings about jobs run the gamut.

      I don’t really see myself ever being passionate about a job, but I’m content to have a job that I feel good at, that I believe is doing good work, where I like the coworkers, benefits, and hours. It’s a nice way to spend my days, even if it doesn’t give Meaning to my life. For me, the meaning of life is relationships with friends and family, and I’m just not sure how to get paid for that.

      I also resent the idea that some have that working in a job you’re not passionate about is selling yourself short, or that if you’re not fulfilled and blissed out all the time always you’ve failed somehow. It is 100% ok to have a job you don’t mind and cultivate interests and passions outside of work.

      In the nonprofit sector, though, I feel like intense enthusiasm for the work is occasionally a job requirement. I’ve been to one too many conferences where we’re supposed to talk about our favorite part of the job, and everyone says “helping people,” and I’m thinking “the fact that I can wear jeans and I get to leave at 4.” :)

      1. afiendishthingy*

        I think “helping people” is the job interview answer – it’s not exactly a lie, but it’s not the whole truth. I work in human services, and yeah, it is great when I see a client make great progress, but my favorite part is that I don’t have to get up early and there’s always a coworker clothing swap going on. That said, my only for-profit workplaces were a hotel reservation call center and a restaurant, so not career type jobs; I can’t imagine myself in the for-profit sector in the future, but I do think it’s a matter of personal preference. My interests/training just don’t really align. I don’t know that “passionate” is the right word, but I do need to find my work interesting. Not every second, I don’t think any job is without some tedium, but a good chunk of the time. Of course that’s a luxury to have that choice, and I don’t know that everyone needs that, and I’m sure a lot of people find their jobs in for-profits interesting.

        1. Anonsie*

          It’s also just a meaningless statement. Yes yes, everyone likes helping people to some extent or another, good for you. What about this specific role or company hits that mark for you, though?

          1. afiendishthingy*

            Agreed, and I would be more specific in an interview, with examples – like seeing a kid who had no communicative skills at intake start using picture exchange to independently request things, or seeing a parent who had been at the end of their rope be less stressed out because they were using strategies I’d taught them to manage their child’s challenging behaviors.

      2. Ihmmy*

        ^^^ this x 1000. I’m the same way – I’m not passionate about the work here, but it’s a job I’m good at, I enjoy, I have good coworkers, I am helping improve lives in my way, AND I can leave it at the office when my day is done. And I work in non-profit, my last two jobs have been there, but there’s no feigned enthusiasm at least. Both are education fields, and I do feel continuing education is great, but it’s a bit different of a non profit than charities and such can be for temperament.

        1. Oatmeal*

          Yeah, my work environment is similar. Definitely no feigned enthusiasm. We all like what we do, but understand its challenges too.

    4. Mimmy*

      This is a really good question! I’ve been trying for years to find a way to cultivate my interests in a paid capacity. The closest I came was my one post-Masters job that only lasted 10 months. Right now, my work is as a member of several councils / committees that are somewhat related to my interests, but beyond regular meetings and time-limited (~2 months at a time) grant proposal review periods, it’s not steady, and one of my councils has been a bit of a mess since I was appointed last year.

      I think a lot of times, it’s not an active choice – One would certainly like it to be, but if you can’t find something paid that is in line with your passions, the best bet may be to accept an “okay” job and cultivate your passions by volunteering in some way to perhaps fill experience, skill or knowledge gaps. That’s what I’ve been thinking of doing. Then down the line, one could try again to find something paid.

    5. Dan*

      I took a serious pay raise moving from a for-profit to a non-profit in my field. Great work, 40 hours a week, not much stress at the IC level. I like my work and am passionate about it… 40 hours a week. I get to leave work at work, and have plenty of time to cultivate interests/passions outside of work.

      1. Felicia*

        I had a similar experience. I work 37.5 hours a week, which is less than i did at a for profit, and make more money too

    6. Ad Astra*

      It is possible for some people to find jobs they’re passionate about that also make them lots of money, so it’s a little bit of a false dichotomy. My husband is passionate about teaching, and while the money isn’t awesome, it’s actually better than the money I’m making in marketing right now, and he doesn’t have to work all summer.

      I worked in a field where passion and a sense of duty were supposed to get you through the long hours and crappy pay, and by the time I was laid off, I was also burnt out. It wasn’t a conscious choice to switch industries; there just weren’t any suitable jobs in my original field in the market I live in, and I wasn’t in a position to relocate. But I had long suspected I didn’t have the necessary passion to keep up with the industry, and I was relieved to find a job doing something else.

      The stuff I really care about — my family, my dog, good beer, my sports teams, visiting my best friends who live far away — are things I can’t turn into a job. They’re things I had to sacrifice in order to succeed in my old industry, and I really grew to resent it. So now my focus is on pursuing those interests, which means making money and accruing vacation time. As always, YMMV.

    7. the gold digger*

      I have never had more than one job offer at a time, but if I did have two offers at once, I would go for more money. That is the main reason I work – money.

      (And I almost punched my sister in law last week when she said how lucky it was that my husband is unemployed and we are not “financially strapped” so that my husband can be the main one taking care of his sick dad. Primo has spent the past two and a half months in Florida helping his parents and his two brothers have been of almost no help, except to advise Primo that he needs to make their dad lose 30 lbs, to which my sister said, “If he has that power, I want him to work on me first.”)

      1. Anonsie*

        Theoretically I would also do this but in my biz the low money/high money spectrum is also the normal organization/extremely evil organization spectrum and they line up exactly how one would expect, and there’s definitely a line for me taking the money and running.

      2. Oatmeal*

        I don’t have multiple offers – I’m just in a position that I like-ish, and looking to move forward in my career, which I can’t do at my current company. So I’m just trying to think about what is actually important to me in my work, and navigate from there.

        It helps that my job doesn’t put time pressure on this process – I like it well enough for now, and am not itching to get out or anything. I just see a move to another role on the horizon, so am starting the search process.

      3. Merry and Bright*

        I was asked that as a job interview question earlier this year – if I had two offers, what would be my deciding factor. I said something about instinct having met my prospective teams. It would really be the money of course, alarm bells and red flags apart. But we aren’t supposed to mention money upfront, and so….

        In reality, I have never been in that position and would rather not, to be honest. I know myself too well, and the first bad day I had I would be wishing I had taken the other job instead.

        I once got offered a job I had given up on after I had started somewhere else but luckily I was settled in and happy by then.

        1. Rat Racer*

          I’ve been in this position twice: two job offers, one pays more, the other I was more passionate about. Both times I took the higher paying job. The first time, it was a total mistake and one that I still sometimes regret. The second time, it was absolutely the right choice, and I’m so grateful to have landed where I did (money aside, the other company totally fell apart). It just goes to show how hard it is to draw firm lines in the sand.

    8. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It’s also not a choice that has a right answer. Some people may feel the need to have a job about which they’re very passionate, and they’re willing to give up material things for that. Some people might try to find something they don’t hate in order to “work to live, not live to work”. Some might decide that making money is their reason for being, and the more they make the better they feel about themselves.

      There’s nothing inherently wrong or unhealthy about any of those. They can all be taken to extremes, or not be satisfying because the thing they need isn’t sufficient.

      I’ve found something that I find interesting, and I’m well compensated. I’m not in love with what I do, but I like doing research into it and finding new solutions, and I have that opportunity fairly frequently. I could branch out or apply my knowledge in a different area and make a lot more, but right now my technical knowledge is applied to a web site that helps people, so I like being peripherally involved in this kind of helping. I also telework and work with people who believe in work-life balance, and I wouldn’t want to work anyplace where my personal life suffered greatly, no matter how much they paid me.

      But, tl;dr version, it’s all a very personal choice, based on what makes you happy.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Oh, but to answer what you seemed to be asking, I started out in a more “helper” position, because that was satisfying, but found a way to move into a more technical role, which is less stressful and pays better.

    9. Felicia*

      At my not for profit job, I make more money , work less hours and have less stress than my friends in comparable for-profit jobs. I’m also not particuarly passionate about the organization (a lot of non profits are not cause based, mine is not), but I kinda like it and care a little. So i guess i can “have it all”? There’s other non profits i’d be more passionate about. For me, I want to have a job I like, that I make enough money to live off of in my current style (which isn’t that much) where i don’t work long hours. I think there’s a difference between that and “passion” which I don’t need.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        This might be heresy in the nonprofit world, but I agree with you – there are lots of nonprofit jobs where an extreme passion for the mission of the organization is not required. There are some people on my team (those doing outreach and community relations work) who REALLY need to be passionate. There are others (the accountant, for example) who just need to do a good job in their specific area of work. I don’t really care if the account does a great job because he cares deeply about the work, because he has high personal standards, because he’s just a perfectionist, or because he wants a great reference for the next job. The point is, the organization is getting what we need from him. Great!

        Personally, I consider my career to be nonprofit management vs. the specific field that I’m in. I don’t share that often because sometimes it’s received as a dirty secret. I do somewhat prefer to stay on the human services side (vs. environment or animals) but there are tons of causes I could be quite happy working for. All of these different agencies/causes are pieces of the pie – we can’t have JUST domestic violence services, or JUST hunger services – it’s all important and I’d be quite happy contributing in a number of areas.

    10. fposte*

      Yeah, I’m going with “false dichotomy, if not completely untrue.” There is no shortage of long-hours high-stress jobs for people who are mostly passionate about their standard of living, after all.

      It wasn’t a conscious choice for me, but reading AAM makes me realize how *incredibly* fortunate I’ve been to find a career track that I love and that pays me pretty decently. If I lived in a more expensive region of the country, the salary thing might be an issue, but here I have enough to save for retirement and satisfy my largely modest tastes, so the money difference isn’t an active problem.

    11. Oatmeal*

      I didn’t mean to necessarily pit for profit against not for profit – I know some NFPs pay more, some people in for profit roles have more stress than their NFP counterparts… I just phrased it that way because that is the choice I am currently facing. I am just interested in hearing how people balance their lives and make choices about the kinds of work and careers they pursue.

    12. Sunshine Brite*

      I feel like finding a job that I’m both passionate about and have a life is important to me. I need a flexible schedule to manage stress and I like being able to do my activities, etc which would lead me to a job I’m ok with. But I’m still a social worker and I’m still working to help advance people even if it’s not my first area of choice because I saw what some other nonprofits and for-profits were doing to their employees and I couldn’t live like that for long.

    13. JenGray*

      I think you can do both. I just left a nonprofit for a for profit job but not because the mission of the organization was not something I was passionate about- I left for other reasons. I think that you will have more flexibility with a nonprofit than a for profit but the nonprofit job might require more evenings/weekends. But if you can take more time off than you have ability to pursue interests/passions outside of work. It all depends on the organization. If you are fulfilled in your nonprofit job than there is no reason for you to leave but just know what comes with it.

    14. Glod Glodsson*

      I’m leaning towards the false dichotomy side. Sometimes I worry a bit about how much value we as a society place on employment. We all derive part of our sense of self from having a rewarding job – or really, being employed at all. It’s something employers really benefit from, the whole ‘when you do what you love, you don’t work at all!’-schtick (she says while posting on AAM :P). It’s nice if you find your work really meaningful, but it’s also fine if you just do a job that brings in the rent if it allows you to focus on your personal development outside of work, as long as you’re happy that way.

      I read an article about this a while back which was interesting, it was a very critical article about this line of thinking, especially because low-wage jobs are becoming more and more prevalent. I’ve looked it up if you’re interested, it helped me take a step back from my overcommitment to my employer. http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2014/01/do_what_you_love_love_what_you_do_an_omnipresent_mantra_that_s_bad_for_work.html

    15. The Expendable Redshirt*

      I work for a not for profit (NFP) that’s pretty awesome. I don’t know about lower pay, but the hours are reasonable and there’s minimal stress. Bonuses are a regular occurrence.

      Getting into this field/role wasn’t exactly an active choice. My journey is more like a comedy of errors and surprising accidents. I chose my job because it happens to be what I’m good at. Am I passionate about the cause? Kinda. People matter to me. What has been most important is finding a job with tasks that I’m good at along with a healthy work environment. I’ve found both, and sticking with this place.

    16. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      You know, this is a question I toy with all the time. I do have lower pay, but I have GREAT benefits. When I started at this job (a decade ago), it consumed my life. I worked day and night, and expected many others to do the same. Because of health problems (in part caused/exacerbated by working so much) and generally realizing that work/life balance matters , I now work a pretty consistent 40 to 45 hour week with a 60 hour week thrown in a couple of times a year. I’m not exhausted, I have lots of time to pursue my own interests. I eat healthy, home cooked food, and I exercise every day. I volunteer. I take all my vacation time. And you know what? I get more done. And, because I’m the boss, I’ve worked really hard to make this our culture and to encourage people to work hard while they are at work, and then go home and do something else.

      Yes, I could make more money elsewhere. That said, my education and expertise are in nonprofit management, so this is a chosen career and it would be a good bit of trouble to switch fields. I also like what I do, I like the people I work with, and I like knowing that my work matters. I also like that I have tons of flexibility, which limits stress.

      I have, especially at times when I wasn’t loving my job quite so much, thought about whether I might be happier making more money and just making work work. I might do that someday. But I am also very aware that the grass might not be greener, and that I might not enjoy the money enough to make up for enjoying that 40 hours a week less.

      Not every nonprofit expects you to work day and night for nothing. Some do, but that’s the same with for-profit jobs.

    17. Melissa*

      Active choice for me. I also think it’s a false dichotomy; one of the things I’m passionate about also happens to be a hot area with the potential for a lot of money. But after 7 years in academia, I’m definitely going for “this job makes me reasonably content but also pays well and gives me time to have a life outside of it.” Those are top priorities for me, and much more important than the specific industry I’m in.

    18. wanderlust*

      I think it’s a bit of a fallacy to assume it’s “either, or”. On the one hand, I work in nonprofit, and I know that passion is a difficult motivation to sustain – especially if your role is less hands-on, or if your boss/coworkers are crazy, or if you’re living on ramen because you can’t afford groceries, but also if you realize that sometimes nonprofit work is a lot like working in an office, and it’s not always a warm fuzzy. On the other hand, though, people are allowed to be passionate about something BESIDES helping animals or feeding the hungry – medicine or research would be a great example, but people can be passionate about numbers, about operational oversight, about architecture and design, etc., etc. Nonprofits don’t have a monopoly on passion in the workforce, and for-profits don’t have a monopoly on dissatisfying jobs.

      Think about what it is about your WORK, not your company, that makes you happy (or not), and look for that in your professional life – i.e., how are you motivated? what kind of projects excite you? what saps your energy? Some people love analyzing data, some people love event planning. That can be done in a variety of contexts. But bottom line, if you work anywhere and you’re NOT feeling satisfied, then yeah – go volunteer, take up a new hobby, pursue a new job if it makes sense.

    19. Jillociraptor*

      Just to toss a fun wrench in this mix, I work in a mission-driven nonprofit, and lots of my colleagues also have “side hustles” that are additionally important to them beyond their work specifically toward our mission. So both is also an option!

      I think of my dad, who worked in a for-profit company his whole career (same one), and absolutely had what I’d say is passion for his work. It wasn’t mission driven, but he believed deeply in what his company did, and the way they did it.

      Contrast that with my mom, she had zero problem going to a job every day that she didn’t personally care about and finding excitement in her non-work life.

      Like my dad, I feel pretty strongly compelled to do work I believe in. I don’t feel super motivated by the idea of “work-life balance” — I care about and get tons of meaning from the work I do every day. I don’t think I could ever have “just a job,” that I could leave at work and not think about.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I’ll throw in another monkey wrench.
        My primary focus is the organization itself. Do I believe in what they are doing/making/selling? Is the organization ethical? I don’t believe I have to be “passionate”, as passion usually wanes as familiarity increases. I do have to have a core belief that the product or service is basically good. It’s that belief that carries me through the tough days.
        Second is I have to feel like I am making a contribution and making a difference. For profit or not for profit status does not matter, if I am not contributing.
        As far as money is concerned, I stopped accepting less money because of some vague “greater good”. I think that is fine for the short run, but it is not a long term plan. The math does not work for me. My fuel bill is four times what it was when I first moved in to my current house. My health care insurance has is now EIGHT times what it was nine years ago. No, seeing how the numbers play out over the years, I can no longer accept less pay because of a greater mission. I don’t have to make a bizillion dollars a year, but I do have to be able to cover my bills (and their ever rising costs) so I can sleep at night.

        In short, I target comfortably covering the bills, the overall value of the organization’s product/service and my ability to make a contribution to that effort. Those are the three things I feel are important for me.

  12. co-authors galore*

    How do you list large group publications on your resume? I’m one of about 30 co-authors on a multi-hundred-page scientific report that was recently published by a government agency. We are all named as authors within the report, but just in general as a group (not for specific chapters, etc.) and it’s one of those publications where the appropriate citation is “Government Agency Name (Year).” I’m not an academic, but my field still values publications, and I definitely want to add this to the Publications section of my resume — any tips?

  13. Sherm*

    Just wanted to give out some encouragement to the job seekers. I got a (new) job after eighteen months of looking. I know how hard it can be! You know how people say “I send out dozens of resumes a week, and I hear nothing”? Well, that wasn’t me, because most days I couldn’t find a single job posting that matched by skill set.

    But it finally happened. And it was pretty easy! And (lots of “ands” here”) my resume wasn’t perfect — I sent by mistake a version I wasn’t completely happy with. And I wasn’t perfect in my first interview — I left something in the office and had to go back to it. I wasn’t perfect at the second interview — I said “Deadlines are hard!” meaning “hard” in the sense that one day late doesn’t cut it in my field, but my interviewer thought I meant “Deadlines are difficult!” I didn’t have a good opportunity to correct myself, as the interviewer went on. But I still got the job. AND I like it! It can totally happen to you.

    3. ElCee*

      I love this! Thank you for the pick-me-up. My experience is similar. I send out maybe one resume a week–I know I’m being a little “picky” but (knock on wood) my current job is safe for now, and my biggest reason for a new position is upward mobility and pay, so there’s not a lot out there in my already-tight field. Just have to keep plugging on!

    5. cuppa*

      I’m having the same skill set issue (my industry seems to hire and waves and we’re in a dry spell), so I’m happy to see a success story! Sometimes I have to remind myself that just because I don’t see anything today doesn’t mean I won’t see anything ever.

    9. Melissa*

      Congrats, and thanks! I’m interviewing/applying now and the reminder that you don’t have to be perfect to get hired is always welcome.

  14. J.B.*

    Project management certification – it would be really useful for me to have but wow! even the community colleges charge beaucoup bucks! I’m wondering if there are a few starting classes that are worth taking separately, and then pursuing certification later. Or is it better to do some sort of intensive. Any tips on what courses are worthwhile vs working towards the exam?

    As a specific example, the most applicable courses to me from one of the local ($) programs are:
    Project management tools, principles and practices
    How to communicate, influence and negotiate in project management
    How to manage capital projects

    1. Rat Racer*

      What on earth do they teach in those classes? I feel like project management certification is a total scam. Although I am admittedly a lousy project manager, in my opinion, it’s a skill set you can just as easily cultivate on the job if you enjoy doing it (I do not). I know this is not very helpful to you though JB, because so many jobs now require Project Management certification.

      But seriously – just a rant here – in my experience Project Management and People Management are skills that you should learn by doing/learn by mentorship, and can’t be purchased through coursework. I wish academia would stop trying to bottle and sell this snake oil.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I used to think the same thing- Don’t you just figure out how to manage projects? But I learned that actual Project Management is a whole different ball of wax. It’s budgeting, conflict resolution, negotiations, contracts, human resources, and so many budgetary and scheduling calculations it makes my head spin. I understand now why the certification takes 3,000+ hours of hands-on experience. It is like learning an art and a science at the same time.
        I could handle managing a one month project with a budget of $1,000. But I could never begin to handle a 2 year project with $Millions at stake. The PMs can have it.

        1. Rat Racer*

          I just want to clarify that I firmly and whole-heartedly believe that project management is a real skillset, and that the skills you listed above take time and effort to develop. I’m just skeptical that someone who has completed project management coursework would be as competent as someone who has cultivated those skills through on the job training and real world experience. Especially when it comes to the soft skills like conflict resolution – how do you bottle conflict resolution skills in a classroom?

          Part of my cynicism comes from the total BS management classes I had to take in grad school. Actually, the real value in those classes was that they didn’t provide any value at all – at least I know now that good management skills can only be obtained through contextual experience, mentorship (and the AAM blog and Book)

          1. AndersonDarling*

            Oh yeah, I agree! I’ve wondered why the PM students are taking the certification if they need 3,000 hours of experience to complete the course. After 3,000 hours of experience, wouldn’t you be a project manager anyway?
            And I double agree about the management classes. I’ve learned 100x more from reading AAM than I read in a management texbook.

      2. Us, Too*

        The class does NOT teach you to be a good project manager. The class teaches you how to pass the PMP exam, which is NOT the same thing.

        I was required to get this certification for a former job. Although I am a great project manager, and I have many years of PM experience, I took the class. The class made it MUCH easier to pass the test because it taught me to think about what the right answer for the exam was (What Would PMBOK say?) rather than what the right answer in real life was (What is the Right Thing To Do).

        1. Witty Nickname*

          I did a Project Management bootcamp through Project Management Academy, and it was absolutely valuable for me. It taught me a lot about being a good project manager, as well as how to pass the exam. I was able to implement a lot of what I learned in the bootcamp into my role and help establish some best practices in my organization (my role was new to our org, so my team really was able to help set some direction).

          However, I know that even with PMA, the quality can vary depending on your instructor. I had an excellent instructor who was able to make the insane amount of material we had to cover in 3 days clear and applicable to real world project management (not just PMBOK project management).

          1. Us, Too*

            I think this is kind of like arguing that you can learn to be a great manager via coursework. The coursework alone is not worthless, but there’s no substitute for real life experience and practice.

            Having said that, if your org is full of folks who have neither the practice NOR the book learning, go for it. In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. :)

          2. Us, Too*

            I should add that I also had a really good instructor. For every real world example, though, our class had enough seasoned (jaded?) PM veterans that one or more of us could cite a counter example in which doing this would sink a project or create additional issues, etc. Poor woman had to repeatedly point out that this is about what PMBOK would say, not what may be best in a particular situation! :)

        2. Cath in Canada*

          Well, there are classes that teach experienced PMs how to pass the PMP exam (I took one and it was really valuable for that specific purpose), and there are also separate classes that teach the theory of how to actually manage projects to people with zero hands-on experience. I’ve never taken one of the latter type (I learned on the job), but some of my colleagues have and said that they were at least valuable in getting hired into their first PM job.

        3. AnotherFed*

          +1000. What would PMBOK say is a horrifying standard to apply to real life project management, especially if you’re managing people who actually know what most of the PM lingo means… there is no faster way to piss off engineers than to say Earned Value Management!!

    2. cuppa*

      Check your local library for the Gale Courses program. They have two free MOOCs on project management.

    3. Gwen Soul*

      Are you talking the PMP certification? If so it is possible to study on your own, you just have to be very focused and dedicated.

      1. Us, Too*

        You can’t actually apply for the PMP certification without having 35 hours of “formal education”. :/ So at some point you have to sit in a classroom and (likely) pay for it.

        1. Gwen Soul*

          It can be self directed as well. None of my hours came from a class room. I did online webinars and books from the library. I got my PMP a few years ago, so that may have changed though.

    4. Jubilance*

      Any possibility that your company could pay for your training? I got lucky and a previous employer paid for my entire team to attend a PMI led certification course.

      1. J.B.*

        The short term goal is to refine my cat herding skills :) I have opportunities to practice but no real mentorship. My employer will pay for something but it needs to be cheap. I think in my case classroom work on specific topics would be really useful. I care much less about the exam prep but will get there eventually. I’ll try for classes that meet the “formal education” requirement right now and work towards the exam later.

        Thanks for the tips!

    5. AndersonDarling*

      I just completed the CompTIA Project+ certification. It is a really good step into project management.

    6. ID10T Detector*

      My local community college offers a series of classes that culminate with PMP Prep 1 and PMP Prep 2 – the first four classes are $60 each, and the 2 prep classes are $90 each. The classes are entirely online through Ed2Go. I can post the URL if you’re interested.

    7. FJ*

      Do you have industry related project management courses you could take? I’ve taken two specific to processes in my industry and they were both more useful than the general PMP course I took from the local university.

    8. Jillociraptor*

      Coursera has an on demand course that I found simple but enlightening on the topic. It’s free, might be worth checking out!

    9. Kirsten*

      I don’t know if this will help you at all but my husband and I are both project managers and neither one of us ever took the classes or got the PMP certification. I currently hire other PM’s and never look for the cert. I don’t know how much it would actually help you, so maybe it’s not worth the cost?

  15. Steve G*

    OK I’ve been waiting impatiently to ask…….Questions for recruiters using online job boards (any recruiters here?!):
    1) How do you the applicants get to you? From Indeed/Monster/etc. Do you have to put the effort to login to look at them, or do they get emailed to you?
    2) Many sites mess up the formatting of resumes/cover letters, and or insert it into a cut-and-paste field. Do you also still get the pretty, formatted version we originally attached, and/or do you not care if the formatting becomes a bit off because of your job site?
    3) Linkedin – Out of the 25ish jobs I’ve applied to here, only 3 of the applications have been opened, yet I got an interview for a job where they didn’t open my application. How is that possible? Conversely, I’ve been rejected without seeing the “application viewed” status come up…..so how do they know enough about me to reject me? Have you ever not opened the application and just looked at their Linkedin profile? Or does the application get emailed to you somehow?
    4) Jobvite – does “in process” mean you looked at the application yet or are seriously considering the person? Because 90% of the time “in process” has meant I got a phone screen, but I saw one job go into “in process” this week, then I got rejected (ouch!).

    2. Karowen*

      Not a recruiter, but re: Rejection without looking at you – I’d bet you this happens to people all the time, we just don’t have any visibility into the recruitment process so we give the recruiter the benefit of the doubt. Think about it like this: two years ago, the average position got 118 applications. There’s no way to efficiently go through all of them. So you go through them until you find a handful of stellar candidates and put the rest to the side in case your handful doesn’t work out.

      Conversely, the recruiter could’ve peaked at your profile (invisibly) and seen that you didn’t tout required skill x and moved on, or if it gets imported into an applicant tracking system may have just done a search for a given word and rejected anyone who doesn’t have that word. There are soooo many possibilities, so don’t let it get to you.

    3. Kay*

      Hey! I wasn’t sure if you meant recruiter from a recruiting company or like, an intercompany recruiter. From a staffing company…

      1) We do both. We get emails set up from Boolean alerts that we create (i.e. “winterfell ruler” AND “dead” NOT “everyone in the westeros”) but we usually run through those pretty quickly, or they are a lot of the same people we have seen before. We move on to looking on the boards themselves and trying different combinations of searches to see new resumes.
      2)We know that the sites mess up formatting and don’t worry too much about it (short of it being unreadable). We can click on the download button to get the pretty version, but it usually wastes too much time and is unnecessary. We will if we want to save the resume to send out later.
      3) I’ve rejected people after looking over their linkedin profile. Sometimes I find that they aren’t as strong a candidate as their resume makes them seem. One time I found a guy who plagiarized an entire cover letter from this website. That was fun. I can’t really speak to the candidate side, maybe its buggy, maybe recruiters have enough resumes for that postion.
      4) I don’t use this site, so I couldn’t guess.

      1. Steve G*

        Really good information, so let me ask about Linkedin…what are you looking for on the profiles? Because 1) I tend to be shy about connecting with people (because a lot of my customers at past companies were older men who didn’t really use or need to use social media), so would a low # of contacts (100) make me look less qualified to you (I totally marvel at people 2 years out of school with 500+ connections because I’ve never even worked with that many people)…..and 2) I don’t want to post too much about what I did online, so there isn’t much detail. Either it feels like oversharing, or I feel like I am putting previous employers/coworkers at risk oversharing about what they do

        1. Kay*

          I don’t look at connections at all. It’s basically a tool for a more detailed look at your background. I found that LinkedIn profiles can sometimes tell more of a story just because they tend to be more detailed. I also keep an eye on any groups they are a part of, just to paint a picture of who they are and their interests.

        2. RR*

          Not Kay, but as someone who has recruited from LinkedIn (well, had my in-house recruiter look for me, the hiring manager), I can tell you that in my field, we don’t care squat about number of connections. We look for certain key terms that are common to our (rather specialized) line of work. And if you have worked for certain industry leaders (and in what role).

          What I have in my profile, which has generated a fair amount of contacts from recruiters and hiring managers, is a one paragraph summary of my key qualifications, and then a listing — with ZERO details — of my current and past positions. Company name and title only, but in my line of work, that does convey a fair bit of info by itself.

    4. Recruiter*

      1) For the most part, applications/resumes are emailed directly to me when you use a link from a job posting to apply to a job we have posted.

      2) Depends on the specific site and how you’ve applied but we usually will get the resume as you have formatted it and if we don’t, we don’t really care as long as you are actually qualified for the job we have posted. (95% of the responses we receive are people that just click “apply” to a Java Developer posting when they have formerly worked in a car dealership as a sales person)

      3) It could be that we’ve already looked at your profile and don’t need to look at your application. Or it oculd be that we already have people interviewing and don’t need any other candidates but we haven’t taken down the job posting yet.

      4) It really would just depend on how the particular company you are applying to uses Jobvite within their organization. Most times we wouldn’t put someone in process unless we were considering them but that doesn’t mean that’s how all recruiting companies use the software.

      The truth is we get so many responses to job postings that are not qualified

      1. Steve G*

        This is a really good bit of information, thank you so much!

        I am especially excited to get a response on the jobvite thing. I have 2 applications on it “in process” now, and the majority of times (maybe 6?) I’ve seen “in process,” I got a call within the week, so when I saw “in process” then got rejected it really surprised me.

    5. VictoriaHR*

      Recruiter here :) It really depends on the job. Something highly specialized, like an Information Assurance Engineer who’s willing to relocate to a remote Navy base and work for a lower salary, we have to go digging. More generalized positions such as Software Engineer I, we often just post on our careers page and plenty of worthwhile candidates apply.

      I don’t care if resumes get formatted in a wonky matter due to the applicant tracking system. I take it with a grain of salt. We’ve hired people with pristine resumes and we’ve hired people with crap resumes. We base the decision more on how the person was in the interview process.

      Never used LinkedIn or Jobvite, so can’t help there, sorry :(

      1. Steve G*

        Is there any site that makes the applications somehow easier to get in front of HR people, or are they all kind of the same? So when you get a lot of candidates, do you have to login into the system (like is there a back end of Monster.com?) and then open each resume one by one, or do they get emailed to you each time someone applies?

        The reason I’m asking all of these questions is, if one site is harder to use so HR people don’t really check the applications, I want to know.

        1. Kay*

          I just wanted to chime in…every recruiter has a different preference. Some people find monster the best, others prefer indeed. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. We don’t really let that affect our opinions of the candidates. In general though, some stereotypes filter through…
          CareerBuilder – Everyone and their mother uploads their resume there so you may end up with some slightly odd candidates or people who aren’t sure about using computers. Good for blue collar jobs though and easy to search.
          Monster – Usually a different candidate pool, people who are looking for white collar jobs.
          Indeed – Good for all around candidate but a pain because you get a very limited number of free emails and people don’t always respond. Very easy to search.
          Craigslist – Always entertaining. Sometimes you luck out.
          LinkedIn – Best for higher level/executive jobs. Higher Maintenance Candidates.
          GeographicAreaHelpWanted – Really easy to use, good formatting. Searches on this site are impossible though and make it really difficult to weed out candidates without reading the whole resume.

          I’m sure there are others. These really are just stereotypes and need to be taken with a grain of salt, but it tends to be what people fall back on when they are trying to recruit lots of candidates or fill a lot of jobs.

  16. TheExchequer*

    Couple of interviews but no offers. The car situation seems to have stabilized for now so hopefully we’ll be okay for awhile.

    I have a bona fide question for you. I’m job searching like crazy for multiple reasons (including but not limited to: multiple instances of not receiving my commission and/or paycheck on time (apparently being overwhelmed is a valid excuse for that! Who knew?), my boss telling me repeatedly that nobody else had to be perfect but I did, lack of benefits, and a general lack of business – it is really slow and not in a season that should be slow for us). However, my 1 year anniversary of being at this company is coming up. Even though I’m vigorously job searching, can I still try to negotiate a raise if I don’t have any offers? Or is that considered negotiating in bad faith? How long should I wait after getting the raise (if, indeed, I do get one) before I leave?

    1. Retail Lifer*

      I’m sure this is bad avice, but if you’re not getting paid on time and your boss is treating you like that, I wouldn’t worry about negotiating in bad faith or quitting right after getting a raise. It would be completely different if this place was good to you, but it hasn’t been. If you get an offer, do the respectable thing and give your two weeks, but you don’t owe them any more than that.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I agree with Retail Lifer, but I also wouldn’t consider it bad faith. You don’t KNOW you’re leaving, you might be stuck there…well, hopefully not for long, but it could be a while. Unless you have plans etched in stone, I don’t consider it bad faith to move forward assuming the worst scenario (that you’re stuck there for a while).

      If you get the raise, then you leave whenever you get a better offer, and you can tell them that it wasn’t enough to keep you because there are concerns other than pay rate (stability/reliability based on your late pay).

    3. Golden Yeti*

      I would say it might not be bad to try to negotiate a small raise, at least. That way, if your job search takes longer than you’re expecting, at least you’re making a little more in the meantime.

  17. Ali*

    My new job is turning out to be a struggle. I haven’t lost hope that things can turn around, but I don’t think this will be the place for me. Although I’m making less than $9 an hour, I didn’t find out until my new hire orientation that I would have to complete my training across three different sites (the store that hired me, one store for classroom training and a third store for on the job training) and I also have to complete computer work before I attend classroom sessions. In addition, there are several assessment tests that I cannot pass with anything less than 100%. I understand the importance of all the classes, as my job is a pharmacy tech so there’s a lot to learn about laws and safety. However, since the pay is so low and I’ll only be working part time, it seems silly to have some of the aspects…like going to three different stores to get the training done. I cannot do the on the job training in the store that hired me. I also feel out of place with all the other new techs hired across my company, as they want to go to pharmacy school or pursue other medical careers. I don’t have the smarts for that!

    I have an interview for a different part time job on Tuesday and am also considering a career change. I still do not have any other prospects for full time work in my field. If I get this other part time job, I think it could be a better fit and I’d end up taking it, even if it paid a little less. I guess I am just a little disappointed b/c I had solid hopes for this job, and now it’s not looking good .

    1. Sadsack*

      Hey, I don’t know you, but saying that you aren’t smart enough to pursue further education or career paths sounds like you are really selling yourself short.

      1. Ali*

        I was referring to pursuing medical/hard science paths, not ruling out other careers in general. Pharmacy school, for as interesting as it sounds, requires a lot of work that isn’t really in line with strengths. Same with healthcare careers across the board.

      2. Nikki T*

        I approve this message. You might not have those sort of aspirations, but don’t sell yourself short!

    2. E*

      The pay may not be good, which is a valid reason to look elsewhere. But going through the intensive requirements for this job would be something to add to your resume, along with a decent length of time working there if this works out.

    3. KAZ2Y5*

      Don’t get discouraged! I’m a pharmacist (although I work hospital and it sounds like you work retail) and I know how competitive the pharmacy job market is now. I have just now (hopefully) gotten my first full-time position after being laid off 7 months ago. You need to go through all the training (even if you are just working part-time) because you are expected to have the same knowledge, even if you are just working 1-2 days a week (or whatever your schedule is). I had accepted a prn position and had to go through the same 5 week training that all new pharmacists go through (full-time, part-time or prn) because when I am there I need to what their policies and procedures are.
      I would just count this job as a step up the ladder. You will have to probably work there for a while before you can get a full-time position (either there or somewhere else) but this is great experience and something to put on your resume.
      And as a side note, if you are interested you might check out hospital pharmacy. The majority are open 24/7 (which may or may not be a problem for you) but the pay is much better. Good luck!

    4. fposte*

      I’m sorry this isn’t working out as you hoped. Can you explain why the other part-time job would be better, even if it pays less and the pay for this job is already a problem? And what’s the problem with the training at other stores–is it that those stores are hard to get to, or you’re not being paid (or you’re paid less) for them? If it’s just that they’re hoops, could you just jump the hoops and move forward?

      If I recall correctly, you’re thinking about other directions since it’s tough to find full-time work in your field. Do either of these jobs offer the possibility of expanding to full time work and better pay?

      1. Ali*

        The other part time job I feel more excited about because it’s in a chain restaurant and I’ve always been drawn to the idea of doing hospitality management. I did food service to make ends meet in school and enjoyed it and part of me always wanted to come back to that. I don’t necessarily know yet the pay will be less (I go on Tuesday for a second interview), but it feels more in line with something I’m excited about. I feel hospitality/restaurants offer a lot of opportunity for growth if you get in at the bottom and do well. (Look back at Alison’s cover letter example from Dany from…2013? I think? to see what I mean.)

        I guess I think it’s pointless to train at other stores because there’s no reason, in my opinion, why you can’t do on the job training at the store that hired you. It’s the same system at every store within the chain. I don’t have a car right now, so having to make at least three half-hour trips to one of the training sites is difficult and in my area, that trip can’t be made by bus so I have to find rides. I did not know about this until I was in my new hire class and it was brought up that we had to go to training stores. If it had been mentioned to me in the interview, I would’ve self selected out.

        I don’t really see how far my career can advance as a pharmacy tech because I don’t have the knack for all the hard sciences being a pharmacist requires. Plus, it’s not like I’m that great about my own health and fitness that I’d be in a position to advise others on some other career path in that field! I mean, in my company, it’s possible to do retail and pharmacy tech duties, but I’m not yet sure if retail management would even appeal to me.

        Either way, I still want to be on the lookout in case something full time does come along. But I got rejected from another job today b/c even though the lady who talked to me said she’d get in touch with me with an interview time, she ended up emailing and saying they filled the job. Kinda depressing.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I guess I think it’s pointless to train at other stores because there’s no reason, in my opinion, why you can’t do on the job training at the store that hired you. It’s the same system at every store within the chain.

          The other store may have a staffer who’s better at training. Or qualified.
          The other store may have physical room that makes it easier for someone to observe you, or for you to shadow them.

          Try not to invest too mu h angst in second-guessing them. Go with the flow; don’t try to do their job for them.

  18. Pill Helmet*

    Any photographers out there?

    My husband has the rare opportunity to change careers and he’s interested in becoming a professional photographer. He’s been an amateur photographer since I met him and has quite a good eye for composition. He takes some really stellar pictures so I believe he’s talented enough to do it with some time and training.

    I know it’s a tough field. Any advice for how he could get started? I’ve been telling him to take some classes, offer to do some volunteer work for local non-profits, do some band photography, offer low rates for beginner work just to get experience, and to see if he can find an apprenticeship. I’m not sure if these are practical ideas, bad ideas, or even completely unrealistic.

    I’d also like to get some guidance for him about setting up a portfolio / website. Should he have printed photos or are all digital ok? How man should he have prepared to show to potential customers?

    Any other tips or thoughts?

    1. Bekx*

      I’m not, but my dad is.

      Here’s the problem. Everyone with a camera now thinks they can be a good photographer. My dad was President of multiple organizations, nationally accredited and state accredited. He was inducted into invite only societies for photographers that are considered Masters of their field. He taught. He got his Craftsmans degree from PPA. A photo of me as a child is an internationally award winning print.

      It’s hard now. Everyone thinks they are a photographer. You have to be twice the businessman as you are photographer.

      My grandmother’s studio that he worked at for 30 years? Gone. As are many of the studios that held master photographers.

      I was at a wedding with him recently, and he was sitting down showing the flower girl how to sit on the steps of the church. He showed the bride how to position her hand (closed) and what angle the groom needed to look. A woman commented “Wow! I’ve never seen a photographer do that! You can tell he’s good!”. And I’m biased as hell, but HE IS GOOD.

      But with all this talent, he does not have his own studio. He does weddings on Saturdays through 3 other companies. Work is hard to find. My dad is an artist. He is not a business man.

      Not to scare you away from it, but it’s tough. tough tough. But to answer your questions since that’s what you care about:

      All digital photos are great for a portfolio website. Make sure you have an album or five that you can physically show clients. Make sure you have on hand a few weddings with ALL the shots. Good and bad. Photographers can take 600 shots for a wedding and have maybe 2 or 3 portfolio worthy ones and display those on their website, but those aren’t the ones you’ll get for the other 597 shots. This is good advice for a bride to be too, ask to see a FULL wedding. That’ll give you a better picture than the ones people display on their website.

      My dad usually will send them/show them 2 recent weddings, 2 albums and any more that the bride might request.

      1. Pill Helmet*

        I appreciate the feedback. I have definitely considered the “everybody thinks they’re a photographer” point. It’s a concern. He’s a bit different than the average person running around with an iPhone, snapping anything, and editing it in instagram. I mean, he does do that. BUT he also has several high end cameras and actually takes time to go out and shoot real photos, and he’s been doing it for decades, so it’s not just a passing fancy. He’s taken some intensive photography classes in the past and now he reads photography books and blogs to keep up with it and tries new techniques, etc. etc. But I totally get your point.

        You’ve made some really valid and helpful points about the businessman aspect and the kind of dedication required. Both of which worry me. He’s not a business man. He’s clearly dedicated to photography, but I rarely see him exhibit real stick-to-it-iveness when it comes to career ambitions. I hate to say anything negative about him, because he’s an amazing husband, but he doesn’t have an ambitious bone in his body. He has absolutely no direction or motivation to move forward in his current career (tech support). He can’t even verbalize his skills or answer the question “what do you want next?” But he REALLY wants to be creative and I don’t want to dissuade him.

        1. Bekx*

          Yup I get that. I’m in marketing and I’m the one who has to give my dad ideas. It’s definitely hard, but maybe what I’d recommend is he keep his job but do it on the side.

          1. Pill Helmet*

            He’s actually unemployed right now. We relocated for my job and he quit his. He’s been wishy washy about finding a new job. But I’m also making enough money that right now he has the luxury to make a change, which is why this has come up. I agree, if he were working I wouldn’t have him quit his job to pursue this.

            1. BRR*

              Sounds like a good time to let him try although it’s definitely a word of mouth business. If you don’t mind him trying it now sounds like a good time. Could he also find maybe some other part-time work for now if that is what your household needs?

        2. Natalie*

          Maybe reframing it a bit. Rather than being his career, what if he viewed tech support as the day gig that allows him to have a much loved but not terribly profitable photography business? There’s no rule that your 9 to 5 job has to be your primary interest in life.

          1. Pill Helmet*

            This is a great idea. I have suggested part time work, but I haven’t framed it quite like this. I’m going to try it.

            1. Mander*

              FWIW I have attended a bunch of business development courses and seminars over the past couple of years and there are always tons of photographers in them. Not to denigrate your husband’s skills, but it’s definitely a saturated market, so making a living from it might not be realistic unless he’s devastatingly good.

              But that’s not to say he can’t make some money doing it, just perhaps not enough to mean that he’ll never have to work in a field that’s not his passion again.

      2. RMRIC0*

        This is very important advice to anyone getting into the field, your ability to market and sell yourself is just as important (if not more) than your ability to take a good picture. There are plenty of “rockstars” in the field that are mediocre photographers but get tons of dough (mostly from other photographers) because they have built brilliant brands.

        1. VictoriaHR*

          This goes for a lot of home businesses. I make and sell soaps and lotions and if I don’t keep up with the marketing aspect of it (which I have not this year at all), my business slows down and eventually dies off. I stopped doing farmer’s markets after last year and so now I have hardly any income from it. But it was always just a hobby and would have never been a full-time job for me, because I could easily see that making soap would lose the “fun” factor very quickly as soon as I “had” to do it to fill orders. If your husband isn’t willing to do the business administration side of it, he should probably keep it as a hobby and have a day job.

          1. Folklorist*

            Off topic, but you said you sell soaps–ARE THOSE YOUR DALEK SOAPS??? If so, where do I buy??? Take my money, please!

    2. ElCee*

      He should make a website. I recommend apprenticing or working as a second shooter for other photogs, vs. undercharging or doing free work*, to build his portfolio. The reason for this is that you want to network and develop relationships with other photographers–that really is the best way to gain real clients in the long term. Photography (and TV, which is my partner’s field) can be a pretty small world, so you want to start off on the right foot with other photogs and not get a reputation for “stealing” clients–whether right or wrong, it is a hard one to shake. Maybe it’s different in still photography vs. TV, but relationships are important in this industry.

      *Free work for friends is OK, IMO. The idea is you’re not undercutting any competition, they’re your friends after all so they would be choosing you over another photog anyway.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      I used to work in the photography departments at US News & World Report and then Sports Illustrated, so I know lots of professional photojournalists. I’m going to be brutally honest – it is almost impossible to make a good living at it anymore unless you go very commercial; like weddings. With the advent of digital cameras and the slow death of print medial, there just isn’t the market for photography that there used to be. Sports Illustrated just let go all of their staff photographers a few weeks ago and are going to use freelancers. Which is so incredibly competitive – if you don’t know the right people, you won’t get any work.
      .
      RE: Portfolios – I think digital is ok these days. The photos need to be a good size (at least 8×11) and there should be a good range of subjects; portraits, close ups, candids, landscapes, etc. unless he plans to specialize. Other than the photojournalists I mentioned above, I only know one person who makes a living wage as a professional photographer – and his duties consist of taking photos of businesses (I can’t remember the context but I remember it was boring as hell). Even war photographers these days are all freelancers. What Bekx wrote about being a good businessman is so true – it’s just as important as being good at taking photos.

      1. Pill Helmet*

        I should say that he doesn’t have dreams of becoming a photojournalist or anything like that. He’s definitely thinking commercial. He just wants to take pictures and show them to people and get oos and ahhs. And while he’s at it, make a bit of money. He’s thinking, weddings, children, local events kind of stuff. Nothing high profile.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          Oh good! Then please disregard my entire comment. It’s probably still pretty competitive but easier to break into the field than print work. One thing to remember is that he will have to work a lot of weekends!

        1. Lily in NYC*

          It’s so depressing – like acting as well. Talent will only get you so far and then you need luck/connections.

    4. FJ*

      Not a pro, but I’ve thought about it too. Seems like a tough way to make a living these days. Lots of online articles about it (i’ll post one in the next comment). I think I’m going to keep going at my regular job and maybe try doing a photo business on the side. If it builds up, great, but if not then I still have income and I haven’t ruined my love of the hobby.

    5. Stephanie*

      A former roommate transitioned from engineering to professional photography. From what I remember, it was definitely a long game–she kept her Big Corporate engineering job, squirreled away as much money as possible, and freelanced on the side to build up her portfolio. She and her husband also moved from Southern California to New Mexico (mostly for his job, but there had the added benefit of a significantly lower COL where they could have one income and one freelance income).

      Former Roommate makes most of her money doing commercial work for billboard companies and the occasional wedding. I’ll echo everyone else in that you have to be a top-notch businessperson. Former Roommate always knew where every dollar went and was (and still is) an aggressive networker.

    6. RMRIC0*

      I am a wedding photographer (and portraits – though those are mostly related to weddings like bridals and boudoir).

      The classic line here is “don’t quite your day job.” While photography can be a tough field to find success in, it’s also a place where you can just dip in your toes to get a feel for the market and how things might go (which is part of why it’s hard to find success in the field).

      I think your basic approach seems about right – networking with local non-profits and doing free or discounted shoots are a great way to start building a portfolio (depending on what you want to shoot). He can also probably pick up some work as an assistant or apprentice with other local photographers, even if he’s just holding lights and reflectors for a bit while seeing how other people work.

      As far as what that portfolio should consist of it will vary greatly depending on what he’s doing. I’d say that if it’s a digital portfolio there should be at least 20 strong images (enough for people to flip through) and a few sets from completed sessions that clients can look at. I don’t think you necessarily need a physical portfolio unless you’re looking to sell prints (and then you’ll want something more like a sales kit than a portfolio).

      There are also a lot of great resources online that cover the business side including forums like fredmiranda.com or education sites like creativelive.com that can serve as a springboard into the creative and business end of things.

    7. AVP*

      I hire photographers and work closely with them.

      A digital portfolio website is fine. Squarespace is great for that.

      Photography jobs are really, really word-of-mouth heavy. A lot of people can take great pictures, but not everyone is great to work with and be around for the very long and stressful hours that are inherent to the trade. Building up a reputation for being flexible, not a diva, useful to have around, good at fixing things in any condition – those are the types of skills that lead to new jobs. You can start to build up that reputation by doing some volunteer work, or lower-rate work, or taking spec pictures. You might be able to sell them to stock houses to make a tiny bit of money at the beginning – not full-time-job-level money but enough o offset some costs. Or ease into it by keeping your day job and starting with weekend work.

      Being good at managing your own media, keeping things organized and neat, and all that – whenever I hire someone new, it’s because someone gushed to me about them, and those are usually the things they bring up (in addition to their work).

      I would also recommend reading the Black and Blue blog – that’s for video camera ops but a lot of the skills cross over, I think.

    8. Kirsten*

      He could offer to 2nd shoot for local wedding photographers. They almost always have 2nd shooters who are typically new/less experienced.

  19. Elkay*

    Is it reasonable to ask that my boss doesn’t allocate work to me via my co-worker? We work in one office and my boss is in another office. I’m sure it’s just a case of my boss being on the phone to co-worker when something comes up but given that a) I was told there was no difference in hierarchy and b) I found out co-worker is a grade higher than me I’d like to get this straight.

    Also, I want to avoid becoming a proxy when another team member is on leave. How do I say this to my boss?

    1. Colette*

      Why don’t you want to get tasks through your coworker? Is information getting missed? Is there a delay that makes you rushed? That’s what you should bring up to the manager.

      What do you mean by not wanting to be a proxy? Do you mean you don’t want to cover for someone who’s out? If so, why? That’s a really normal thing to do, so you would have to have a really compelling reason to ask not to do it.

      1. Elkay*

        It’s more that it feels like boss and co-worker are discussing what I should be doing and co-worker is acting as my boss. The message this week was “Boss wants you to talk to Lucinda about switching from Chocolate to Caramel teapots” boss hadn’t mentioned Lucinda to me nor the switch but co-worker couldn’t give me any more info.

        Team member does a totally different job to me and I have no desire to do her job. This isn’t just “Make sure emails are routed” it’s “Check this, then make the spout, then return it to the teapot maker”, my job doesn’t involve spouts or teapot makers. If co-worker is here I literally have zero involvement in any of this.

        1. Colette*

          In he first case, I’d contact the boss and say “coworker mentioned you wanted me to talk to Lucinda about switching to caramel teapots. When do you want to make the switch? What’s driving the change?” -e.g. Get clarification about what is required.

          As far as covering for coworkers, it’s not about learning the entire job. It’s about keeping things moving while a coworker is out. If people didn’t cover for jobs they’ll never do full time, a lot of people would never get to go on vacation or get sick – and that’s not reasonable. Can you look at it as learning more of the business and interacting with people you wouldn’t otherwise get to know?

          1. Elkay*

            Problem is boss disappeared on vacation after that, I just kind of wished if it was that important he had told me directly so I could have asked questions.

            I’m having trouble getting my head round it because I have zero interaction with what this person does. I was asked to help out and said yes thinking that it would be a case of all move up one and I’d cover my co-worker who is in but interacts with the person who’s away while they covered the absentee. Today it was a case of “Oh you need to check this then go back to them if it’s wrong….” so I misunderstood.

            Over the last few years I’ve tried to draw boundaries in jobs so I don’t get stuck doing the things I hate and almost have a mental breakdown like I did about three years ago which resulted in me walking out of a job with nowhere to go because I couldn’t cope any more.

            1. Anonsie*

              Ok ok, I’m going to really solidly disagree with Colette and Toots on this one because I’ve been in your situation and I know what you’re talking about. It’s really hard to articulate why this is a bad idea because it seems reasonable on its face, but I always felt like I was being set up to look bad. You’d get a “boss said this” from Jane but Jane couldn’t tell you enough for you to actually do it, so then you’re delayed and having to ask dumb questions. When it happens all the time, the overall look is that Jane is in charge of things and you’re the one who can’t just get things done and is always confused for no reason. Double-extra bad if boss is asking Jane for updates on your work but you are separated enough that she can’t actually give a decent report.

              So here’s what I did to get a handle on this again: I just made sure to talk to our boss a lot so everything I needed from him came directly from him and everything he heard about me came directly from me. It’s not *easy* because it means dedicating quite a bit of time to it, but the difference it made was huge. I used to get generally favorable but overall kind of lukewarm performance reviews from him, and after I started doing this within two weeks he was telling the big boss I had “turned it around” and he was really impressed with my improved performance. Literally the only thing that had changed was that he was talking to me directly.

              1. Colette*

                The problem is that “I’m afraid it’ll make me look bad” is not something you can take to the manager. You need to figure out what the actual issues with it are to make an effective case for change.

                1. Anonsie*

                  I think you misunderstood me, because I’m not suggesting Elkay bring it up with the manager as a problem. Just start being in more contact with him so she (?) can be sure they are in touch often enough that there is no reason for him to continue to route things to/from her through her coworker.

                  My experience was not that I was afraid it would make me look bad but that it actually did. I felt embarrassed by it regularly but I didn’t realize the impact it made on my image until I increased contact and immediately got feedback from the manager that he felt I had made some amazing sweeping change for the better in my overall work quality. I had never imagined how much of a negative impact that arrangement had on my credibility, because it just doesn’t seem like it should.

        2. TootsNYC*

          I think you should notice that the coworker is at least saying. “Boss wants…” and not just “You should…” And coworker isn’t giving you more information, bcs she doesn’t have it.

          So coworker is NOT acting as your Boss; coworker is acting as Boss’s messenger. I don’t see that as unreasonable. Take all queries straight to the boss.

          As for having to sub for your other colleague–I would address the “lack of expertise” idea. But if I were your boss, I would provide whatever training I could, adjust my expectations for your newbie-ness, and then be ticked that you were trying to dictate what you work on. I purchased your time and attention; I get to spend them how I want.

          1. TootsNYC*

            AND…yes, I would expect you to be willing to learn other aspects of our business, certainly enough to keep things moving. (Some people are *pleased* for opportunities like this; they regard it as growth. Even if you never, ever do it again, you will have gained an understanding of your colleagues’ work. It might make you more effective for the organization in other ways.)

            1. Elkay*

              I’m not trying to dictate anything. It’s just strange to me to be asked to work on something that’s not related to the skills they hired me for. Think along the lines of designer being asked to run orders and shipping. Two totally different skill sets.

              1. Colette*

                Are we talking a week, a month, or a year? If it’s a substantial change for a significant period of time, you can object (realizing that they might not have the job you want available). If it’s for a couple of weeks, you’ll look bad for objecting. Covering someone’s job forms couple of weeks is not about your career path – it’s about pitching in to keep the business going.

                1. Elkay*

                  Honestly I don’t get the “Pitching in to keep the business going” mentality, I just don’t view my company that way. It’s huge. There are two other people who deal directly with what the person who’s off deals with. I literally have no overlap with the role.

                2. Colette*

                  I’ve covered for multiple people who I had no overlap with. It’s just part of the job.

                  Fifty years ago, it might have been possible to only do the tasks defined in your job description. Maybe there are still jobs today where that happens, but a lot of people are expected to do more when necessary (and saying no can have consequences).

                  If there are other people who can cover (and who it makes business sense to have cover), you can suggest that (or at least ask if it would be possible to do it). If covering would cause you to miss deadlines in your job, you can raise that. If you’d rather be out of a job (or have fewer possibilities for promotion) than cover, you can say no. But choices have consequences, and saying no because it’s not your area may not look good.

        3. Thinking out loud*

          Can you schedule regular (weekly?) tag-ups with your boss to talk status on what you’re working, ask your boss for any help you need, and get any new assignments your boss has for you? That might improve your communication with your boss and negate the need for your coworker to act as the intermediary.

          1. Elkay*

            I already have those, I think that’s what threw me, I’d spoken to boss about three hours beforehand. Normally I’d pick up the phone/IM and find out what’s going on but boss went off-grid for three days following the message. It’s like Anonsie said upthread, I feel like I’m being set up to fail.

    2. Anonymousterical*

      I had an employee say something like this to me, when I was a retail manager. It was less than appreciated, and I really couldn’t wrap my head around it. I managed the seven-person unloading team, none of whom had walkie-talkies; one day, they were scattered all over the huge big-box store doing different projects, and one of them literally wanted me to walk around and find each and every one of them to deliver the same information–instead of focusing on my tasks–because she just could not handle having one of her peers allocate work by saying, “Anonymousterical wants us to do X instead of Y, because Overnight Manager is going in a different direction tonight.” I asked: is John being mean about it? Rude? Bossy? Is the information not clear? Do you have questions? And, no, none of that. John was the one pulling pallets all around the store, and he was the one who would see everyone in the least amount of time, but that didn’t matter. She just couldn’t handle a peer “telling her what to do.” I mean. C’mon. Really?

      I’ve had two peers pull the same thing. One of them wouldn’t do ANYTHING, unless he heard it directly from the boss’ mouth; it doesn’t matter if the boss told me or the guy’s best work friend about what he wanted done that day, if the guy didn’t have a one-on-one conversation with the boss, then, NOPE, not happening. Because he just couldn’t handle “being told what to do” by someone else. The other peer was an admin at a law firm, who would argue with you for 10 minutes about “well, if Jane told you, then why didn’t she tell me?!?! Well, I need to hear it from Jane!!” and then come up with 50 random questions about the simple task, in a clear attempt to get out of doing it and prove to you that you shouldn’t even be talking to her about it, because you clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about (yeah, she said those words).

      I’m not saying you’re those people, at all. But do you want to be ANYWHERE close to their ballpark? If your co-worker is being a you-know-what about it, then that’s different. If you have questions about the change of plans, then e-mail or call your boss for clarification. If you feel you don’t have enough communication from your boss overall, then go that route. Otherwise, yeah, I think it’s unreasonable to tell your boss that you need to hear change in work directions directly from him/her. Sorry.

      1. Elkay*

        I do normally call/IM my boss but he went off-grid after delivering the message. In your example from the admin I can see where she’s coming from, when a job needs clarification it seems pointless to ask an intermediary to deliver the message because you run the risk of it ending up like a game of telephone so you have to talk to boss anyway.

        1. Anonymousterical*

          Well, that particular admin was a 20 year veteran of that office, having worked for the same partner for all of those years, being told through a proxy to do simple, straightforward tasks, like “call the Court reporter and tell her the deposition of Plaintiff B is cancelled and will not be rescheduled as of this time.” Cue 50 rapid-fire defensive questions about how/why to do the job she’d been doing for 20 years. Not fun.

          The point of my post is that I’ve seen a similar attitude multiple times (perhaps to their extremes), both as the proxy-peer and as the manager being second guessed about message delivery decisions, and it never ends well. It destroys morale and turns healthy team dynamics into dysfunction and resentment. I wish you the best with your situation.

  20. Adam*

    When you’re coordinating a group project, what methods do you use to delegate tasks and get people to stay on task?

    Expansion: I’m coordinating my organization’s annual charity drive which goes on for two weeks so we start preparing several months in advance. While I’ve been at this organization nearly five years I’m pretty much bottom of the totem pole structure-wise. Everyone in the group is senior to me (including one executive level director), but since I’m the coordinator for this project everyone looks to me to set the tone and manage everything. So far I’ve tried being very open to discussions and encouraging sharing ideas and have asked for critiques of things and ideas I’ve presented, but so far the team has been somewhat non-responsive. Not completely, but a little bit.

    Granted this an outside-of-work work task so it’s not front and center on their plate like it is for me, but I worry we’re going to get closer to the date and I’ll end up doing a ton of things myself since I have a tendency to do that. Being on this project was completely voluntary for everyone, FYI.

    Any advice on getting people to engage when you’re the small fish without being too aggressive about it?

    1. Adam*

      Further clarification: People haven’t been completely ignoring me when I ask for feedback or ideas, but it seems like a lot of the time people don’t have much input. And I am definitely not above needing critique! Haha.

    2. Colette*

      1. Ask for suggestions. (It sounds like you’ve done this.)
      2. If you get no suggestions, come up with a plan. (Here is how we are going to do this, tasks A, B, and C need to be done by Friday, next week we will work on D through J). If you get suggestions, still come up with a plan but incorporate reasonable suggestions.
      3. Ask for feedback and make changes.
      4. Send on the lists of tasks and ask people to commit to what they can do.
      5. Check in with people to make sure the tasks are happening and they’re not hitting unexpected snags.

      1. Sunflower*

        Yes exactly. You will find out v. quickly if people have ideas. If you’re having trouble getting people to commit to things, feel free to be upfront and say ‘these are tasks we still need done. If they are not picked up, we will allocate them among everyone’.

        PS- I TOTALLY FEEL YOUR PAIN HERE!

    3. Anna*

      I do a lot of project management/event planning in my job and volunteer work. When I ask for and don’t receive ideas or feedback, I’ll throw out some thoughts and get the ball rolling. Sometimes people genuinely don’t know where to start but once you give them something to latch on to, they can formulate some thoughts. Just keep in mind that sometimes those thoughts are “that looks good” or “that works for me.” :)

      After that, I hand out the jobs. It helps if you start with what you’re going to do. “I’ll do A, B, and D, since they’re related. Joyce, can you take on finding out about C and F? Just send me an email with prices.” Etc, etc.

      1. Adam*

        Yeah, I’ve been getting that impression. Most of the ideas we’ve been working with have been my own ideas. I just don’t want to seem like I’m dominating the group.

    4. You're It.*

      Adam,
      As for being “pretty much bottom of the totem pole structure-wise”…
      you don’t have the authority to delegate additional voluntary (unpaid, unrelated-to-actual-work-that-pay raises-are-linked-to-type-of-work) work to anyone.

      You have been stuck with this unwanted task because you are “pretty much bottom of the totem pole structure-wise”

      You do not mention anyone else.
      Did anyone else even volunteer for this ?

      Are you trying to get underpaid co-workers to cough up cash out of their wallets “for the cause” ?
      Or are you in charge of seeking out donations from outside of the organization?

      I’m guessing that you work for a non-profit. It seems that this blog is heavy with people working in non-profits. If you truly want advice, elaborate.

      Suggestions:
      Make it fun somehow.
      Make people WANT to get involved…somehow.
      Offer something that people like in return for participating…informal networking opportunities, pizza or cake at meetings…something.

      Good Luck

      1. Adam*

        It’s not really as grim as all that. Specifically, the charity drive is a food/hunger elimination drive that my entire city participates in and that many organizations across different fields “compete” in to see who can raise the most. I do work for a non-profit (well, it’s closer to being a state agency really) but it has nothing to do with the charity subject matter, but we have participated in this annual event for several years now.

        All participation and planning for this event, including my own, was voluntary. I volunteered to be coordinator of my own accord (after it became clear that no one else in my organization was chomping at the bit to do it).

        So I am seen as being in charge of the project, but since my actual ranking in the organization is low I’m not sure how to effectively go about assigning things to people.

        1. misspiggy*

          I think if you follow Anne’s advice you’ll be fine. As this is voluntary work for all of you, no one will mind you stepping out of your usual authority, and they should actually feel grateful that someone is coordinating. Identifying clear tasks for different people, checking and confirming that everyone is OK with their tasks, reviewing and chasing progress, and thanking people for their involvement, should be seen as positive.

          2. TootsNYC*

            Agree.
            Also, make the tasks in small, short chunks.

            Also: If you’re the main mover on this, a lot of people will be completely OK with you making decisions and just telling them what to do. Identify a few key people to discuss “policy” things with, so you have some “spare brains” and other people’s’ outlooks, and then just move ahead.

            Don’t make the other “volunteers” think.

  21. cuppa*

    So I am going to apply to two jobs at the same place. I talked to someone who works there, and they suggested it. How do I submit the resumes? Do I submit a different resume to each one (Tailored to the positions), or submit one and try to tailor it to both positions at the same time? I’m just concerned it would look weird to submit two different resumes at the same time.

    1. Alston*

      I applied to two jobs at one place.

      Are you applying via website or emailing your resume? If it’s the website same resume, different coverletter.

      The place I applied I was referred by a friend and just had to email my resume and cover letter to their recruiter. Because I was interested in two jobs I wrote two separate paragraphs in my cover letter, one explaining why I was interested/would be good for one job, and the other paragraph for the other job.

      1. cuppa*

        I’d be emailing the resumes. If I understood my contact correctly, I’d be sending two separate e-mails for the two separate positions. I’m leaning towards tailoring my resume to both and sending the same one twice? I like your idea of sending the cover letter with the two paragraphs!

      1. cuppa*

        You submit your resumes to a generic resume e-mail, so they would go to the same place.

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      I would say tailor the resumes to the different jobs to highlight the experience and skills you’ve got listing the most relevant achievements to the indivudal role.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I agree–because they may be separated into different piles for each Hiring Manager.

        I might suggest you send one resume on one day, and the 2nd on the next day, so the sorting process is likely to be more accurate.

  22. Ms. I Need a New Job*

    What search engines/methods do you use to search for jobs? (I posted this last week but didn’t get many responses). Thanks!

    2. Elkay*

      I target companies I want to work for and sign up for their careers section or just check their site weekly.

    3. HigherEd Admin*

      I use Indeed a LOT. I don’t love it, but it seems to have the most postings for the kinds of jobs I’m looking for.

    4. Jessica*

      I use a combination of Indeed, LinkedIn, and going to the job boards of companies/organizations that I like. If you have a professional listserv that you can subscribe to, a few jobs come across that way. I set up an email alert from HigherEdJobs.

    5. Mimmy*

      Many industries have niche websites for job searching. For example: Idealist for non-profit jobs and HigherEdJobs for jobs in colleges & universities. (I don’t know what field you’re in–those were just the two I knew off the top of my head).

    6. Gwen*

      Location & industry specific websites, for the most part. (I’ve had a lot of luck with Big Shoes Network, in case there are any other marketing/PR/design people in the Midwest!)

    8. Sunflower*

      I use a few but Indeed is the best I think. LinkedIn too as many jobs are only posted there and will not come up on Indeed. Indeed will pull jobs from a lot of other job search sites.

    9. YandO*

      Mostly LinkedIn. I am signed up for glassdoor weekly alerts and if I see something interesting, I go to LinkedIn to check them out and then to the company’s website. Also, I use LinkedIn to search through similar jobs, similar companies, jobs recommended for you.

      This has worked very well for me. I don’t visit any other job search engines.

    10. Evey Hammond*

      CareerBeacon mostly! It’s a good way to find temp jobs since it’s linked up with a couple of different agencies.

    11. KW*

      I used:
      1) Idealist for non-profits.
      2) Bookmarking individual companies’ job pages and setting up RSS feeds to get updates from them. I had a LOT of companies/organizations bookmarked (think 50+) so the RSS feed was so helpful – you just check one place and it shows updates from all* of them, instead of having to go to all 50 websites each week to check. (*Not all job sites work for RSS but at least probably 70% did.) I used Feedly for an RSS reader and Page2RSS plugin to create the feeds.
      3) Industry-specific job sites – for international development, that was mostly Devex, Devnet, and ReliefWeb.

  23. betty lou spence*

    Recently my workplace has been holding “town hall” style meetings with 50+ people to discuss what we can be doing better. I believe the company is sincere, but I’ve noticed that conversations are dominated by the same people. Other people are quiet and never have a chance to speak because the same group keeps interjecting. Is there anything I can say to the higher-ups about this? Any suggestions on how they can encourage others to provide feedback? I know some others want to (I’m one of them!) but it’s just not possible as the core group keeps raising their hands to talk before others even have a chance. Is it appropriate for the moderator to say, “we’ve already heard from you. Let’s see if someone else has something to say first.”?

    1. OriginalYup*

      Definitely need a moderator. They could also:
      -limit questions to one per person
      -switch up the format so it’s townhall-style for the big announcements followed by smaller groups for discussion (one exec per group to catch the feedback)
      -offer slips of paper for written questions/comments that are passed to one “reader” to read aloud
      – make it a looping session where people can submit questions after the fact that are addressed at the beginning of the next meeting (both for anonymity and also to provide space for the people who need time to process their thinking before asking the question).

    2. Natalie*

      It would definitely be appropriate for a moderator to shut these folks down, but honestly IME a lot of people are TERRIBLE at moderating meetings. Politely telling people to sit down and shut up is an art form, for sure.

      I don’t see anything wrong with mentioning to whomever is organizing this or your boss or someone else who might be able to change something that you’ve noticed this, and perhaps they should have smaller meetings or surveys or something to get feedback from the quieter people.

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      If these are moderated discussions, then yes, the moderator should be choosing from everyone, not just the ones who throw their hands up first and make a show of wanting to speak. Instead of outright dismissing someone, though, they could say “let’s hear from someone in X department (or whatever), how about you?” (pointing to someone who is obviously not as enthusiastically raising their hand). BTW, congratulations that so many are participating, that is frequently a problem with these kind of events, people are afraid of speaking up and it’s not uncommon to “seed” some questions into the audience if no one is heading to the mics.

      Having said that, do they have mics set up? If people had to line up to speak, then maybe some of the other people might do that (or not). It would be easier to get people in a line and wait their turn, in some ways, rather than picking hands out of the audience. But with an audience of only 50, that might be overkill.

      There are other ways to handle this, though. There could be a Questions box that is put up somewhere like the lunch room that people drop a question into, they are reviewed and answered at the townhall, or a virtual one on the website/an e-mail that people can send their concerns to. Some companies put cards on the table for people to write their questions on, which are picked up at various points throughout the meeting and answered. I’ve seen it where everyone is given a stack of Post-its, they can write their question on it and stick it on a white board somewhere in the room (or immediately outside, depending) and they are reviewed/answered live.

      They might want to consider sending a survey around and collecting the information/questions that way and bringing up the results at the meeting and getting detailed feedback live at the meeting, or using live polling software to ask questions and get audience feedback in real time, but the questions would have to be drawn up ahead of time.

    4. Artemesia*

      This is not an effective format because lots of people will not speak up in such meetings — even apartment from the boors who always dominate. If you really want feedback then structuring things differently might help. Having written comments, suggestions or questions so people can anonymously participate might work. Having small groups within the 50 discuss whatever the issue is and then come up with 3 questions or 2 suggestions or 2 topics that need further discussion or whatever your focus is, can be helpful. Having one of those post it walls where everyone identifies the issues most needing to be addressed (or whatever your focus is) and then organizing those so you can see which ones are most widely held.

      In other words, don’t put 50 people in a room and expect the timid to say anything, especially anything that might be deemed critical. And of course you need skilled moderation in any case.

    5. TootsNYC*

      Tell the moderator what you’ve just told us: I’d like to comment, but the same people keep taking up the air space. Plus, it makes me feel pushed out by them.

      And you know what? Be the change you want to see.

      Get your hand up in the air. Think of it as “taking one for the team” (or, not “taking” but “doing,” maybe). (I always go first in the buffet line if there’s ever a hesitation. I figure it’s a way to serve my fellow diners, by breaking the ice.)

  24. Alston*

    If you got to pick your ideal work schedule (working around school) what would you pick?

    I’m going back to school in the fall, and I’m keeping my full time job. My job has a flexible schedule, and pretty much as long as I get my work done (I need about 35 hours) it doesn’t matter.

    School is from 8:30-4:15 daily. I’m thinking of going into the office after school for 5 hours on M, W, F, and then doing the rest of my hours from home on the weekeneds.

    What would you pick?

    1. OriginalEmma*

      Wow, I commend you for your dedication to both full-time work and full-time schooling! Is this graduate school? With a schedule this demanding, please remember to take care of yourself. Self-care should be paramount for the next few year(s) as you pursue this demanding schedule.

      My ideal schedule would probably have work in the morning and school in the afternoon. It’d make it easier to continue on studying in the evening, vs. having to switch gears with a school-morning/work-afternoon schedule.

      I’d probably want to work about 20 hours/week, since that’s what I did while doing full-time undergraduate studies.

    2. Monodon monoceros*

      I’m confused- do you have classes on T/Th? During college I worked M/W/F/Sa/Su (usually 7:30 – 5pm, plus 1 hr commute each way) and had classes all day T/Th, with homework/studying in the evenings. It sucked big time. Give yourself at least one day off per week.

      I wouldn’t be able to be real effective at work for 5 hrs after being at school 8:30-4:15. But I have thought for a while that I need more “down-time” than the average person. But I would think seriously about how focused you could be after a day of classes.

    3. Anonymous Poster*

      That’s a very long day. I think the answer will vary based on the level of schooling you’re undertaking. Could you tell us whether it’s a grad degree or not, and what’s it in? I’ve done a MS in Engineering and working through an MBA right now so I might be able to provide some insight.

      1. Alston*

        It’s actually a furniture building and carpentry building program. So there may be a small amount of research outside of class hours, but nothing like the studying I’d have to do in a grad program. More like browsing the internet for furniture styles I like and sketching, or a bit of theory reading.

        @Monodon The class is 5 days a week, so on Tuesday and Thursday I’d just go home after class and have the evening off to chill. Do laundry, see boyfriend, etc.

        My current work schedule is 10am-10pm and 8 hours on Sundays–two part time jobs along with full time job to pay for this class.

        1. Alston*

          Also, forgot to mention, this is a 3 month program. So I just have to be able to hold it together that long. I am considering their longer program, if that happens though I’ll have to reevaluate the job, because I know I couldn’t keep this up for 2 years.

          1. Monodon monoceros*

            Ah, OK. 3 months of this schedule I could do. It might be a sucky 3 months, but it’s doable. My stint of classes and work every day lasted 2 years and by the end of that I quit and went to live in a tent for 3 months (seriously).

    4. alice*

      That’s basically my situation as well, except I work from home during the week after school and come in to the office on the weekends. I’d say you have a good schedule there. Just make sure you don’t get burned out.

    5. Anonsie*

      I’ve done this, but my classes were all on off hours so I was working regular time. Essentially I ended up with the same schedule you did– 8am to 9pm days 2-4 days a week (variable by year) with the fifth being a regular work day and one weekend half day.

      If you can, I would encourage you to do as much work from home time as possible. This wasn’t possible for me, but the biggest thing about this schedule is that you’re never home and you can never get anything done. At least if you’re WFH you can 1) cut out the commute time and 2) throw some laundry in or vacuum during your break time so you don’t feel like you live in a hovel. I didn’t like my hovel.

      Remember you will ALSO have homework and readings, and as much as you want to pre-do it when you have time on the weekend it will often not be possible because you’re trying to make up time getting household stuff and errands done. Also, one thing that always burned my grits was that the professors knew most people didn’t do their work until short notice so often they didn’t send things out until a day or two before a deadline or exam, so working it out in advance was not possible a lot of the time.

      1. Alston*

        Burned my grits :D

        I actually could do my entire job from my house, the only reason for me to go into work is to show my face/make sure I’m included in decisions.

        I’m only going to be overlapping with people for a couple hours, so in theory I could go home and finish up there. I’m afraid though that if I do it’ll break my concentration and I’ll just end up sitting on my couch and vegging.

        1. Anonsie*

          My grits are delicate and easily burned :P

          You can try it in person and find out. I find it easy to get things done for work while I’m at home but not everyone does.

    6. Sofie*

      I currently work full time during the day and take graduate classes at night, full time. It’s not nearly as demanding as the schedule you describe, but it still is pretty rough. It leaves you with very, very little time to do other things (like planning a wedding, which I recently did… do not recommend). It might be tough to swing this schedule unless you expect your course load to be really light.

      Best of luck to you! I know what a challenge it is to juggle school and work.

      1. hermit crab*

        Oh, we’re life-choices twins! I just finished my last grad school class this week and I’m getting married in a couple months. I would not do it again (even though my mom is basically planning the entire wedding, haha). Good luck with everything!

    7. hermit crab*

      I’m just finishing a grad program where I went to school full time and worked nearly full time (averaging about 30 hours/week). All our classes were in the afternoons or evenings and even after two years I never got the hang of going back to work after class — I’d have all these plans for doing work-work or schoolwork or even just laundry afterwards, but on most nights I’d just be like NOPE and go to bed. If you’re a productive-in-the-evenings/night-owl type, your proposed schedule might work great for you, especially since you’ll only need to keep it up for a few months. Faced with your class schedule, though, I think I’d rather spread out my work hours after class all week, or use after-class time primarily for life stuff and then work a lot on the weekends.

    8. Jem*

      I had a job once where I worked Monday through Friday 6p to midnight. It was the best schedule ever. I could get done anything I needed to do at home during the day and I didn’t get off too late to still enjoy a couple hours of relaxation before hitting the hay. I was so well-rested too!

  25. HigherEd Admin*

    I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who weighed in with their thoughts last week about a pending job offer. They came back to me with a little bit more money (thanks, AAM, for the negotiating tips!) but not enough for me to make the leap. I have two other interviews lined up, though, so hopefully something else pans out.

    So, a huge thank you to the AAM community for helping me think through my options!

  26. Applying for internal positions*

    How do you respond to coworkers when they ask if you are applying for an internal position (promotion)? I really don’t want to discuss whether I am applying or not, and I also don’t want to lie. I have a particular co-worker, whom I normally consider a friend, but she turns every conversation I have with her into the third degree about whether I’m applying for a certain position. I want to still be friends with her, but I feel like anything I say will either confirm that I’m applying or be a lie.

    1. Thinking out loud*

      “It looks interesting, but I’m still trying to decide whether to apply or not”?

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      Can you tell her you’re thinking about it but that you don’t really want to talk about it? That way you’re sort of noncommittal, but you don’t blow her off entirely.

      1. Applying for internal positions*

        Well… except now we’re at the point where the application deadline has passed and the question is a direct “Did you apply?” (I know that wasn’t expressed well in the original question.)

        1. Nikki T*

          Darn… I was so evasive when I got asked this question no one ever came back to me to ask about it later.

          Can you smile mysteriously (or wickedly) and say, “time will tell”….I mean if she keeps asking I’d ask what’s it to her?

        2. CB*

          “Why do you ask?”

          Let them lead the conversation and see what they’re trying to get out of you?

        3. Development professional*

          I don’t mean to sound flippant, but “did you apply?” is a yes/no question, so I’m not sure how it’s the third degree. I would answer “yes” and then respond to any follow up questions with “I’d rather not discuss it.”

  27. HRJillOfAllTrades*

    Just need a reality check here. Every year, I update the handbook that was created by an employment attorney and email a copy to all staff in the first week of January. The handbook has a list of holidays. Yet, without fail, every year, two or three people (out of a staff of 28) email or approach me to ask if this day or that is off. I just got this about July 3rd a few days ago. I emailed that person back and said, “It’s in the handbook I emailed in January.”

    Am I overreacting to be so annoyed that people won’t look up a list that’s all of half a page long to find out if we have Columbus Day off or whatever? This has been bugging me a lot. How would you handle this sort of thing?

    1. Alston*

      I would be annoyed, I would probably also be one of the people asking you. Anyway to put it up on an internal website or even a physical bulliten board?

      1. HRJillOfAllTrades*

        We don’t really have an intraweb to use for that kind of thing. And if people can’t refer back to their electronic copy of the handbook with its searchable text, they’re not likely to go to our website to look for it there either.

        Can you explain why you’d be asking me instead of referring back to your copy for something like this? Maybe that would help my frustration.

        4. afiendishthingy*

          Also, I’d be much likely to look for a calendar on the website than find the email with the handbook and ctrl-f to find the holidays. Having it on a website is more intuitive to me. Maybe a shared google or outlook calendar?

        5. AnotherFed*

          Because the employee handbook is a silly place to list out the holidays – handbooks are for opening if you have problems, and most people barely read them as new hires, let alone keep track of frequent updates. Even if you don’t have an intraweb, a list of days off is an easy thing to put on a bulletin board.

          Emailing back to say go look at the handbook seems a little passive aggressive. Even “yes, and you can find the rest of the holidays in the handbook” would be a lot more reasonable – you didn’t have to look up the answer so it takes you no more time.

        6. abby*

          I oversee HR and other business processes for my organization. In a previous life, I was on the programmatic side and I actually think it helps me manage my responsibilities and team.

          Anyway, back then I would have always checked the employee handbook for holidays. But there are other things I would not have thought to check. I was busy doing my job, not remembering all the HR and business process stuff. So I would need you to remind me of some things because it’s just not something I dealt with regularly enough. I wanted to make sure I got it right.

          At my current organization, we just list the holidays in the handbook with no specific dates. Then, each year, we update a list of holidays with dates and email it to everyone. Most print and put it in their cubes. We also add the holidays to a shared organization vacation calendar. Works for us, everyone knows. We field a lot of questions about other things. I remind my team to be patient because not everyone deals with this day-to-day like we do.

    2. Dasha*

      This is annoying but I feel like there are always those people…. Could you send out the holiday list in the body of the email when you send out the handbook next year? I remember at a larger company I worked at they sent out an email with holidays to the entire office at the beginning of the year.

      1. BRR*

        Ooh we got one of those for the first time this year and it was super nice.

        I vote it’s fine to refer them to the handbook if it’s super thorough. We have a great intranet that nobody looks at so in my office I feel fine telling people it’s on the intranet. I’m trying to condition them.

    3. LCL*

      Post the list of holidays on the company web page, where the employees can find it. Email them the link. Post a hard copy in the office.

      1. Sara*

        We have a whiteboard on the wall in reception, near everyone’s mailboxes, where the boss posts schedule changes (including upcoming holidays where we’re closed) and other items of note.

    4. OriginalEmma*

      Does your organization have Outlook or some other calendaring system? Why not put the holidays in there for all the office to see.

    5. Natalie*

      I get similar repeat questions, and sure it’s mildly annoying. For whatever reason, some people prefer to interact with another person when they need information, rather than look it up somewhere. They’re probably not going to change that style, so I don’t personally find it worth dwelling on.

      It’s apparently something that happens a couple of times a year. Answer their question, maybe include a link to the holiday list as well for future queries. And then take a deep breath and let it go.

      1. HigherEd Admin*

        Agreed. I am someone who always looks things up first before asking for help, and I get annoyed by people who don’t take this same approach. And then I remember that everyone has different styles, and you just have to learn to work well with everyone!

        1. Natalie*

          Oh yeah, I definitely should have mentioned I’m a straight up misanthrope. I will read an entire manual before I ask someone a five word question. :)

      2. Kelly L.*

        This is a really good insight. Like HigherEd Admin, I’m the opposite–I’ll find out everything I can before I engage other people, and I don’t think it ever quite occurred to me that people might just like asking, even if it’s not hard to look up.

    7. Judy*

      A former company did a one page printout calendar with all of the holidays, available on the internal website.

    8. Sunflower*

      Nope not overreacting. If you spray-painted it in huge letters across the entrance to your office, there would STILL be people asking you about it. Why? I really don’t know!!!

      I would just email them an attachment with the handbook and say ‘Please see handbook that was sent to you in January’

    9. fposte*

      I’m with othersyes, this is annoying, and no, it’s not going to change. There are people who go to text and people who go to people, and you want the latter as well as the former in your organization. Putting the holidays on a website is a good plan, since people almost certainly have no idea where they’ve stored the manual by the time June rolls around, but it’s not going to stop this entirely.

      This is the HR version of “the cats will never learn to herd themselves.”

    10. straws*

      We have our holidays on a shared calendar, plus listed on the front page of the leave request system. We still have some people submitting for PTO on a paid holiday and others asking if we have off. I’m pretty sure I could replace their computer monitors with the list and I’d still get questions.

    11. The Cosmic Avenger*

      No, not overreacting, I would find it equally annoying. However, from working with web sites, I know that it doesn’t matter how well you present the information or how much you present if no one visits those pages. You have to make it easy to navigate, you have to optimize SEO and third-party links so that people can find your information.

      Is there somewhere on an Intranet where this information could live, as others have suggested? An Outlook or Sharepoint calendar that everyone can see?

    12. JB*

      Yes, be annoyed. However, it’s never going to change.

      I’ve had this exact problem. I don’t know if you’ve tried this or not, but I put the holiday calendar as the second page in the handbook. That cut down on many of the questions because there was no having to open it and page down to find it. I also created the handbook as a bookmarked PDF so that people could find the sections more easily.

      Once we had an internal website, I posted the handbook there and put a link in my email signature so they would stop asking for the link. Granted, I only send internal emails, so no issues with this going to a client.

      Now I’m not responsible for the handbook, but I still do the “post online/link in signature” for another procedure doc.

      2. afiendishthingy*

        I would even send out a “holiday calendar” doc in its own email, with its own subject line HOLIDAY CALENDAR 2015, the same time you’re sending the handbook, even it’s also included as part of the handbook. Yes, people are still going to ask, but you may be able to cut down on a few requests this way if they can just search their email for “holiday calendar” and not have to remember that they should really be searching for “handbook”.

    13. JenGray*

      It is really annoying but try not to let it bother you because there will always be people who no matter how many times you post it will always come to you and say “Hey, do we have July 3rd off as a paid holiday?”. I think that you should have to manage your own schedule yourself but at my old job it wasn’t like that. We were constantly reminding people about things to the point where I would think these are adults and we are babying them. I would figure out a way to separate the holidays from the handbook and maybe make the holidays in the handbook generic ( I.e. we get the following holidays paid- news years, christmas, labor day, etc. without dates) and then send out a separate list of the dates of the holiday. You could put the actual dates in the body of the email when you send the handbook. If you have this list as a separate document you could easily just send it to those that ask. If you have to respond to the email anyway just give them what they want instead of referring them to the handbook email in January which can come off as passive aggressive.

    14. Apollo Warbucks*

      Not over reacting at all, it shits me when people ask questions that they can find the answer to themselves.

      Do you have a comapny wide calendar, that you could add the days too, that might stop people asking you.

    15. Anonsie*

      This would drive me nuts if I were you, but also I really dislike when you ask someone a question and they tell you to look it up. Because 1) if I run into someone who knows the answer to something, it makes sense to just ask rather than spend way more time digging in the handbook and 2) sometimes people are asking to double-check that something they looked up.

      I think there’s a simple way around it which is to just have a list of holidays (without dates, like just the name like Memorial Day) and, since you don’t have a company intranet, send that out by itself. Or post it somewhere if that makes sense where you work. Then don’t bother updating the dates. I would guarantee part of why people keep being weird is because in their mind it’s changing somehow every year. Then the other part is just not remembering since different companies do different holidays.

      1. HRJillOfAllTrades*

        Huh. It never even occurred to me that the changing dates/days of the week would throw people off so badly. Some holidays are always a Monday but some float around like Christmas and New Year Day so it seemed better to just put the dates* down for that reason. The holidays themselves don’t change though. We don’t celebrate President’s Day some years and take it off the list other years, for example.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          Also, Independence Day being a Saturday this year throws things off – I didn’t email anyone but I did ask a room of people if we had the third or the sixth off. Yes, I knew it was somewhere on the shared drive, no, I don’t remember where. One of my coworkers answered right off. Problem solved.

          However in January a higher up emailed the entire department of about forty people asking if anyone had a list of the holidays. Which were already on the shared drive. She’s already notorious for unnecessarily emailing the entire department, but yeah, THAT was annoying.

    16. Persephone Mulberry*

      Nth-ing that this is annoying but never going to change. You are the path of least resistance – it takes 5 seconds to type “do we have july 3 off?” vs however long to search back through your email for “holidays,” fail, (maybe) remember that they’re in the handbook, search for “handbook,” open handbook document, search handbook for holidays…

    18. Cristina in England*

      I have been on both sides of this. From your side, obviously it is annoying because you put a lot of effort into that handbook and making sure the information is out there. From the other side, though, an employee handbook that was sent out in January is an extremely low priority email for my brain to remember, because I receive it once and I receive it so far away from when I need the information within it.

      Think of it like airport security: the TSA agents act like you are the dumbest person alive because you did take out your laptop / didn’t take out your laptop / did take off your shoes / didn’t take off your shoes. They do this routine every day, they know it inside and out. You on the other hand, fly once every five years, or usually fly from a different airport. There is no reason for you to already know what to do when you’re in the moment, but they haven’t maintained that perspective.

    19. Me Too!*

      I would get this all the time, and still occasionally do. What I do is put the holiday list on the freezer door of the fridge in the company kitchen every January. Even if someone doesn’t remember the date, they generally know they can look when they get their Lean Cuisine out for lunch.

      This wouldn’t work at a large company, but we’re small to mid-sized like it sounds like you are.

    20. Random CPA*

      At my company, HR hands out a 1 page calendar each year that has shapes around specific days. For example squares around holidays, circles around pay days, triangles around fiscal month-end days. I’ve seen that a lot of employees pin it up somewhere by their desks to reference things like holidays. I don’t think most people are going to take the time to even open the handbook you send. So they may not even know the information is there.

    21. TootsNYC*

      I’d put the list on the bulletin board.

      Or I’d send a separate email each year, when updating the handbook, that has a really clear subject line (“Days Off: Company Holidays for 2016”) and include a suggestion that they print it out or file it so it doesn’t get auto-deleted.

      Or I’d make a Google Docs folder that holds stuff like that (a poor man’s intranet).

      Or I’d plug it into any calendar function that’s company- or department-wide.

      If you want to reply in a way that doesn’t sound so snippy but still puts it all on them, I’d suggest: “I hate to say off the top of my head–could get it wrong. It’s in your handbook, though.”

    22. Kristen*

      Maybe when you email the handbook out in January you can make a comment in the email to “please take note on page X of the days the office will be closed for holidays”

  28. Camellia*

    We moved into our house a couple of weeks ago and while unpacking I came across a small folder that I hadn’t seen in decades – literally, it had a document in it dated 1992. It also had a collection of sayings that I had printed and posted in my work cubicle at that time. Here are a few of them.

    “I speak fluent patriarchy but it’s not my mother tongue.”

    “Feminism is the radical idea that women are people.”

    “Well-behaved women rarely make history.”

    “I think, therefore I’m dangerous.”

    “If you feel attacked by feminism, it’s probably a counter-attack.”

    My daughter is thirty and my granddaughter is three. Why are we still having to fight the battles of equal pay, promotion, etc.? Why are women still called ‘aggressive’ while men are called ‘assertive’? Will we still be fighting these when my granddaughter is thirty?

    2. LoPay*

      FWIW – I’m 54, a friend of the guy I am dating first question about me was “Is she hot?” Holy crap, not am I smart, kind, or funny. These are professional college educated men who identify as being politically liberal.

      1. YandO*

        I mean….I can see myself asking my female friend “is he hung well?”

        that’s not reflection of my political beliefs, just my personality and our relationship

      2. Jennifer*

        Any time someone asks me that question I say “No.” Whether they actually are or not, screw ’em.

    3. Artemesia*

      Love the feminism is people quote. I have been saying that for years as I made my career in the south where it was fairly common for rude and boorish men to make cracks about feminazis and feminists or use it as a put down. I just blandly said ‘of course I am a feminist; a feminist is someone who believes that women are human beings.’

    4. NacSacJack*

      Exactly!! Why is it we are still dealing with gender inequity. I grew up with two older sisters and we were all told we must go to college. I work with women all the time and it seems like 50% of my dept is women and yet surprised when I see the stat that women only comprise 35% of the dept. Why? I’m so over this discussion because my mother and father both worked, my sisters and their husbands work, my dept VP is a mother with a stay at home father/husband. What is the problem???? It should be expected that women make as much as men, that we equally get promoted up the ranks and it shouldn’t matter if your project lead is a man or woman!!!

  29. NicoleK*

    I need to have a conversation with the new coworker about communication. We’re not on the same page, not on the same book most of the time. I say x and she hears y or assumes y. I don’t know if the miscommunication is due to difference in communication style, she just doesn’t listen well, I’m not as clear as I could be, or that she’s new and isn’t picking up on the nuances of the organization and programs. She’s only been here about a month so I’m not sure how she will respond. Additionally, I struggle to work with her as I find myself in BEC state with her. I’m open to any and all suggestions.

    1. Graciosa*

      First, I would determine whether this is really a communication problem or a competence one.

      If I say, “Turn the Important Report in by 5:00 today,” and someone decides that means tomorrow, or next Tuesday, or before they go home (whenever that happens to be) the problem is competence. Labeling it a “communication problem” makes it sound as though no one is at fault when the report isn’t there at 5:00.

      On your side, you need to make sure you are being very clear – and documenting in email, because this stuff only gets worse – and addressing every issue as soon as it happens. Yes, this is a lot of work. You have to do the equivalent of walking over at 5:01 and asking why the report didn’t show up. You need to address the excuses and claims of miscommunication as they happen (as much as you can do as a co-worker rather than a manager).

      On the other hand, if you’re saying, “I really need Important Report as soon as you can get it to me,” and then stewing because it doesn’t arrive at 5:00, that’s closer to being an actual communication problem but it lies with you. You need to be very specific and crystal clear in your communications.

      If you are and she still isn’t getting it, you’ll be in a much better position to take this to your manager and ask for help. That discussion should include examples and a review of what you’ve tried to address the problem and what the results were. At that point, your manager should help you come up with ideas to resolve the issue or address it herself.

      Good luck. If you’re having this many problems after only a month, it sounds like you’ll need it.

    2. cuppa*

      It sounds to me like maybe the best thing to do is get immediate reflection from her about what you are saying so you have the opportunity to clarify in the moment. Also, maybe you could get some thoughts from her on why she is hearing or assuming what she is?

    3. Nanc*

      I get that you’re frustrated, her not picking up on important aspects of the job impacts your being able to do yours but if you’re going to sit down and tell her she needs to communicate better, you need to offer suggestions and help.

      If she’s a visual rather than auditory learner it would help to put it in writing. Do you have written SOPs? Can you use email or IM for requests and responses? What was her training like? If she got a massive info dump at the beginning she may still be struggling to figure out what’s important and what’s just good to know. Maybe she needs more structure–some people can hold everything in their brains and some of us like a step-by-step, tick it off as you go approach. It might help to review her tasks and help her figure out how to schedule ongoing items vs items that only happen monthly, quarterly, yearly, etc. It puts a lot of work on you but if she came from an environment where everything was laid out and scheduled by someone else, she may have zero experience in knowing how to prioritize.

      Take a nice deep breath, step away from the cracker box and have a cookie instead.

    5. Artemesia*

      “Ferocia, I find that we seem to be miscommunicating a lot and perhaps I am not being clear. Could we get in the habit of double checking; if I (ask you to do something, share a policy, whatever) lets get in the habit of your repeating it back to me so we are sure we are on the same page. I’ll do the same.” Then solicit that each time you direct or tell her something.

    6. HRJillOfAllTrades*

      Can you email her a one-line sentence (or 2-3 lines if that much is needed) that encapsulates whatever you asked her to do? I agree with Nanc downthread that some people are visual. If someone asks me to do something, it’s in one ear and out the other, especially if I can’t go write it down immediately after the request is made. But if it’s emailed to me, I’ll read it and keep it in mind much better.

      1. Diddly*

        Prefer this to getting her to repeat back – that seems a little humiliating.
        And you can quite easily say ok, I’ll just clarify what we’ve spoken about on a quick email to make sure we’re on the same page.

    7. JenGray*

      I would try emailing information to her if you can. This will help determine if it is a communication problem. I had a coworker at my last job who I had a tough time working with at first- we had some growing pains! It was hard because she never wanted to accept help from anyone- I tried to help her with the nuances when she got a promotion to the job where we would be working closely together but she completely disregarded me. It was at the point where I was told that I was mean to her. I wasn’t but she just wasn’t great at communication and don’t try to bring up any conflict with her. I think that an email will be a record of what exactly you said and when. Then if there are still issues at least you know communication isn’t one of them. This might not work and come off as weird but at least it doesn’t become a she said/she said situation.

      1. NicoleK*

        I thought maybe she’s just more of a visual person…so I tried email. This is a very brief summary:
        1. I sent her an email requesting a status update on x and y.
        2. She responds by stating that x is delayed and she’ll work on x sometime next month (no mention of y).
        3. I reply by thanking her for the update on x and again ask about y.
        4. She responds the 2nd time by going into further detail about why x is delayed (still no mention of y)

        And that’s where we are at for the time being. I still don’t know if she started y or finished y. X and y are tasks that should be a piece of cake for her (based the skills and experience listed on her resume).
        I’m a program manager and she’s the new program evaluator. Her role is unique in the organization. No one else in the organization has a firm understanding of her daily, weekly, or monthly tasks or how to complete those tasks. She did receive 2 hours of training from her predecessor and he’s open to answering questions.

        I’ll shoot her a follow up email inquiring, for the third time about y, and see how she responds.

        1. Cristina in England*

          What happens in you ask her in person about Y? Do you get the feeling that she is evasive, or that she doesn’t seem to understand what you’re asking?

          1. NicoleK*

            The only in person conversations we’ve had about x and y occurred her first day. When she volunteered to complete x and y for me. Since then, all conversations about x and y have via emails. At one point in time, she said they’d be done by the middle of the month. Obviously, that did not happen cause now she’s projecting that she won’t start x until middle of next month.

        2. AnotherFed*

          Can you set up regular in-person meetings? Send a list of topics in advance, and then keep the meeting on track to get whatever you need on each task. And like Graciosa said, be crystal clear about due dates for tasks.

          I’ve got one support guy this summer who literally does not do work unless you tell him ‘do x today and y tomorrow’ and then tomorrow stop in to make sure he did x and is working on y.

    8. Kay*

      What does BEC stand for? I tried googling it and couldn’t come up with anything that made sense.

      1. Cristina in England*

        BEC is Bitch Eating Crackers. I don’t know where it started, but there is definitely a snarky ecard out there that says “look at that bitch over there eating crackers like she owns the place”. It describes the point of annoyance you reach with someone where everything they do becomes the most irritating thing in the world.

  30. Rat Racer*

    I wouldn’t go so far as to proclaim “false dichotomy” because generally speaking, not-for-profits offer lower salaries — although I had thought that part of the deal was better benefits – not worse. But there’s so much variation! And especially in my field (health care) it’s hard to distinguish between for-profits and not-for-profits in culture, salary, mission.

    After working for non-profits for the first 15 years of my career, I took a job with a for-profit company. The salary is crazy good (I still think I’m overpaid), but the hours are long, I’m working for a department whose mission I’m passionate about within an organization I’m on the fence about (good guy? bad guy? depends who you ask). Truly a mixed bag. However, and most importantly, my colleagues some of the brightest, most accountable and kindest people I’ve worked with so far, and that makes a huge difference. The culture here is great – and that’s not something you can split down the middle based on profit status.

    My best advice is to ignore profit status and focus on the criteria that matter most to you personally.

  31. Felicia*

    Does anyone have any suggestions of really good interview questions to ask entry level candidates? None of them have specific related experience, but that’s not necessary. We want someone who can learn, who is very organized and detail oriented, comfortable juggling multiple deadlines, can work well in a tiny environment where everyone does a bit of everything (like less than 10 people), is to an extent comfortable with making things up as they go along, and can try to figure things out themselves/take initiative before asking, though of course they can ask. I do want to ask them what they know about the program we’d be hiring them to manage, because that info is publicly available on our website and that’s a good way to determine if they at least googled us. I tried to search the archives here but didn’t have any luck. Any suggestions? I’ve never been involved in hiring anyone before, and although I don’t have final say, am a bit nervous about this power!

    1. Stephanie*

      Hmmm, maybe ask them to describe a project exhibiting some of those qualities you’ve mentioned? You could mention that it could be from school or extracurriculars. If it’s a group project, just make sure to ask what the interviewee’s particular role was.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      For entry level, we stay away from behavioral questions like “tell me about a time when you had to resolve a conflict” because they just don’t have the experience to draw from. So instead we present it as a possible situation. “Let’s say your manager said we will no longer give out coupons to upset customers, but you have an upset customer who is demanding a coupon. What would you do?”
      You can ask them to walk you through their thought process for prioritizing work. They may not have the answer you would give, but if they can talk about it, you will know if they understand deadlines and hierarchy.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I hire copyeditors and proofreaders, and I often ask ones that stump them, like: “What’s the worst mistake you made, the one that still bugs you, and why is it the worst one?”

        And then I tell them mine. I give them an example. It makes them feel at ease (esp. with the “worst one”), and it shows them what I mean.

        So maybe things like, “did you ever start a new job–babysitting, or camp counselor, or working on the float–and how long did it take you to feel like you were the pro, the experienced one? Tell me how you could tell you knew what you were doing? What things did you do that made you feel more confident?”

        And then maybe you say, “I volunteered in the church nursery. And I realized that after a few months, I was the one who knew where the baby wipes were, and I was the one who realized we were about to run out, so I went and asked the folks in the office to add baby wipes to the list of stuff they regularly purchased. Something like that.”

        Prime the pump, so to speak.

    3. Sunflower*

      I think stress that they can use examples from school or their part-time jobs. Sometimes students are hesitant to use these examples because they don’t feel they are applicable so make sure you encourage it so you can get some real life examples.

    4. fposte*

      “Tell us about a time when . . .” is the classic for this. You can also take the opportunity to give some flavor of the office. “At this workplace, people have be willing to take the initiative to figure things out for themselves. Can you tell me about a project you worked on where you had to solve problems independently?” (I don’t like that wording, but you get the idea.)

      Also, ask them to problem-solve situations people have really faced or are likely to face. “It’s a Friday in summer and the rest of the staff are out of the office. A client comes in insisting she’s been overbilled and demanding a refund–what do you do?” With the kind of office you describe, it’s going to be particularly useful for you to see how people approach these; you don’t care so much about the actual answer, but you want them to think the situation through.

      1. Felicia*

        I like the suggestion of real situations , and I will try to use that in some way! I think for most questions I’m looking for more about how they approach things than the real answer. And I also like the way to let them know what it’s like to work here. It’s a very specific environment to work in that some people love and thrive in (like me) and some people hate or struggle in.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I can see that if I don’t work there, I would have no idea “what would you do?” in that work situation. I wouldn’t know if I was allowed to call the manager at home, etc.

          Maybe ask things like, “What do you think your reaction would be?”

    5. MaryMary*

      I think behavioral questions are still good for entry level candidates, as long as you’re ready to hear about examples that aren’t necessarily school or work related. I asked a candidate once to tell me about a time she had to resolve a conflict with a colleague, and she gave me an example that involved living with six roommates. It was great! For an entry level position, I just needed to know that she could play well with others, it didn’t matter if the “others” were coworkers, classmates, or roommates

      1. Felicia*

        I think for any behavioural questions i’ve thought of, they don’t need to come from a specific experience, they could come from the restaurant the person worked at or the school club they were in or something. It
        s more about how they would handle things. I think anyone can think of a time where they had to stay organized or work under pressure.

        1. TootsNYC*

          Yep! Especially for entry level.

          And that’s why I’d suggest priming the pump by suggesting examples that seem closer to their real lives.

          So you say, “tell me about how you’ve resolved conflict–maybe with a roommate, or a club, or one of your jobs…” Make it clear that you recognize that skills in a social arena can carry over to the office.

    6. FJ*

      I’ve been in similar positions… doing part of the interviewing but not the final decision.
      I like asking “Can you tell me what the biggest thing you accomplished during blah blah blah….?”
      Even entry level candidates should be able to come up with *something* school or work or personal project related.

      Even for non-entry level candidates, it is a good question.
      I had someone with several years of experience not able to give a good answer… and combined with other interviewer’s feedback, we decided not to hire them.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Nice! Because it focuses on achieving. And people who can’t identify achievements are probably not achievement-oriented. They are more likely to be people who just do what other people tell them, without investing their own sense of “what can I do here?”

    7. Anne S*

      One of the question I’ve tried in that situation is ‘tell me about a situation where you’ve had to teach yourself something.’

    8. VictoriaHR*

      “Tell us about a time that your organizational skills or attention to detail helped you in the workplace or at school.”

      “Describe a time that you had to juggle multiple deadlines to get everything done – how did it work out? Is there anything you’d do differently?”

      “Tell us about a time when you had to take initiative in order to finish a project.”

      “Would you call yourself a rule-follower, or a think-outside-the-box type of person, and why?”

    9. AnotherFed*

      I like “tell me about a time when…” type questions, even for new hires straight out of college. Some good ones for your situation might be:

      … a time when you had to coordinate a complicated project or event with a group of people.
      … a time when you made a serious mistake. What did you do to resolve it? How would you prevent it from happening again.
      … a time when you were given a major project and had to plan out and then execute the plan to complete it. How did you handle events that disrupted your plan? What would you do differently?

      And with college-age new hires, make sure to ask follow-up questions – many of them don’t have much interviewing experience and don’t explain their experiences or how they approach problems as well as they could.

  32. Shell*

    For some reason, despite being out in the working world for a good couple of years now, I’ve never gotten into the habit of keeping my lunch in a lunch bag–I’d just take the Tupperware inside (however many there are; usually 1-3) and stick them in the fridge but put the little tote bag I carried everything in at my desk.

    I lost a box of strawberries yesterday, likely because someone assumed it was theirs and took it. And there is no sane way to ask the entire company where my food went :P So I’m writing it off as a loss. From now on, all Tupperware and the bag goes in the fridge, together!

    What other little things have you learned about the working world that no one ever taught you?

    1. Sadsack*

      I write my initials with a Sharpie on any individual item that I put in the shared fridge. A can of soda or a yogurt, I put my initials on it. It helps keep others from taking it by accident and also helps me remember that it is mine if I don’t eat it the same day I brought it.

    2. Anie*

      Just this morning I read a big long thread about people stealing other’s lunch at work. I’ve NEVER had that happen, but dozens in the thread attested to using laxatives or Ipecac to catch the culprit if HR didn’t do anything.

      Not that I’m suggesting you do that, lol! It was probably an accident, I agree.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I’ve read in a few places (and IANAL!) that deliberately spiking food to catch a food thief can be considered assault. Even if it isn’t, DON’T DO IT. :) G-d forbid someone accidentally takes a piece of fruit and ends up in the hospital.

        Not that I support food thievery, mind you. When I worked in a large office, I just kept an insulated lunch bag at my cubicle, which I started doing after maintenance threw out a glorious salad I made in an effort to deep clean the fridge.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          But if you just happen to REALLY like a ton of hot sauce on your lunch, that’s not spiking food….just sayin’…..

      2. Anonymosity*

        We had it happen here and they put up a camera. I think they found it was one of the cleaning crew. Stuff had been disappearing out of people’s desks too. Most people leave food in the fridge for days around here, but that’s still not okay. It’s really not okay for them to rummage in the desks!

        1. CoffeeLover*

          People stealing food tugs at my heart strings a little. I mean if it’s the president of your company stealing your samosas (as Lady Bug mentions below), then you’re probably safe to assume they could afford their own samosas and are just being lazy and opportunistic. But someone on the cleaning staff? There’s a big possibility this person could also afford their own food, but then there’s also a possibility they can’t. I can’t be upset at someone that’s stealing food out of necessity even if it means I have to go out and buy a mars bar.

      1. Shell*

        Office tea politics? Did I miss a thread somewhere? I haven’t been on this site as much as I would like in the last few months!

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I swear I saw a funny article the other day about struggles of the office tea round, but I can’t remember if it was on Buzzfeed or Metro or what.

    5. Evey Hammond*

      If you have milk in your work fridge and forget to write your name on the carton, in a day or two you will no longer have milk in the work fridge.

      Also, a lot of people are disproportionately enthusiastic about Avon catalogues.

    6. TheLazyB*

      My old boss got her sandwiches out of the fridge one day only to discover SOMEONE HAD TAKEN A BITE AND WRAPPED THEM UP AGAIN.

      If it was an accident surely you’d confess?! She was lovely and it was a very friendly workplace!

    7. VictoriaHR*

      Ugh. I bought a small bottle of reduced sugar ketchup, wrote my name on it along with “DO NOTS USE,” and it still gradually disappeared over 2 weeks. I think I got some twice. Friggin people.

    8. AnotherFed*

      That even grown adults are susceptible to hangry attacks. I keep a desk drawer full of snacks just in case hangry strikes, but it took me a few years to just give in instead of hoping people (myself included) found something out of a vending machine.

      And also that the vending machine will eat your dollar with 100% probability if you are hangry and only have one $1 bill.

    9. Lady Bug*

      I once left a box of Samoas in my desk only to find the next day that the President of the company ate the last three when I went home! Stealing food is bad, but stealing Samoas should be a crime!!!!

    10. Kristen*

      I have an insulated bag that I take my lunch in and it stays at my desk. I have never trusted or liked keeping my lunches in common refrigerators at work. People have no respect for others food and most of the places I have worked the refrigerators are like science projects anyway. Just gross!

  33. FJ*

    Ugh, this has been a not great week. For a while I’ve been waiting to hear on an internal promotion that I was very excited about. Now I’ve found out that both my position and the promotion are being relocated to the main office of my global corporation. I’m currently remote. It sucks because I’ve been a high performer, working remote for a few years, and I was asked to apply for this promotion. Everyone in my department from my boss up to the department head supports me being remote, but they were all overruled by the head of HR.

    I kinda knew this was coming in a year or two, but I didn’t think it would happen now. I don’t really want to move back. There is a possibility I could take a remote position in another part of the company, but I don’t think it has much long term potential. So I guess I’m starting to job search and reach out to some connections. I’m kinda dreading the search, but I think I’m ready for something new.

    1. Dan*

      If HR has that much power, your company sucks. HR is supposed to help the business get the job done, not get in they way.

      1. FJ*

        Yes, HR is my biggest ongoing complaint about the company. Forced curve performance reviews that other similar companies have abandoned… No transparency or communication about salaries and grades and career paths…

        Besides that, I really like the work and my colleagues. We are a niche within the industry that I really like, so it’s a general bummer that the job is moving.

    2. Artemesia*

      In my experience when you know enough to know ‘it is probably coming in a year or so’ you should expect it to happen at any moment. My daughter lost her job while on maternity leave (they closed the office); she knew it was coming but because they had just received a new contract thought it would be coming in November instead of February. Once the handwriting is on the wall, expect the uglies to come down at any time.

      1. FJ*

        Yeah… probably good advice. I had been talking to my department folks since the winter… asking how they thought working remote was going and if I could keep doing it. Everyone said yes, so it’s especially surprising/annoying/ridiculous that HR was able to overrule.

  34. Sara*

    Annoyed because I probably missed out on a full-time permanent job opportunity because I failed to understand a statement in the prospective employer’s email as a question. “I will speak to the hiring team and see if they’re available to meet with you around X:00” is not the same as “Should I speak to the hiring team to see if they can meet with you around X:00? Are you still interested in the position?” To me, the first one – which is basically what the hiring manager wrote – didn’t require any response (especially since she and I had been emailing 1-2 times per day for several days trying to coordinate schedules – I thought my interest was a given!), but when I finally met with her today about a slightly different opportunity, she indicated that she actually meant the latter. Ugh. Seems like I kind of shot myself in the foot in an effort to keep my contact level with this hiring manager appropriate and professional. (I very much wanted to email her back hours later to ask if she’d been able to schedule anything at a better time for me, but I didn’t want to seem pushy…and also I tend to assume that when people write “I will do X,” that they mean they’re actually going to do X.)

    The good news is that the interview went well, and depending on the salary and benefits structure, the alternate opportunity could actually work out fairly well for me. I’ve had a couple of other interviews this week, including one third-and-hopefully-final round meeting with an employer that I’ve gotten a really good vibe from throughout the process. Fingers crossed.

    1. Dan*

      Well, the HM sucks for 1) Not being clear, and 2) Absent a follow up from you, not directly soliciting a response.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      So frustrating! But I like to think that those little miscommunications and quirky situations are there to keep you out of the wrong jobs and keep you available for the right ones.

    3. TootsNYC*

      I think responded to every single communication *is* “appropriate and professional.”
      Even if it’s just an email back that says, “Great! looking forward to it.”

      Lesson for the future, I suppose.
      Or, per AndersonDarling: “I like to think that those little miscommunications and quirky situations are there to keep you out of the wrong jobs and keep you available for the right ones.”

  35. Rock/Hard Place*

    My husband and I relocated to the east coast for his work two years ago and are kind of…over it. There aren’t many other options where we live, so we want to go back to our hometown (large Midwestern city). Getting closer to our family in general is our goal, and both of us are at mid-level positions in competitive fields, so it feels very “take what you can get” (and we have to let our landlord know in 2 weeks if we want to resign a year long lease).

    So far, I’ve had phone interviews for a few positions in a mid-sized city four hours away, and another in a mid-sized city 6 hours away (where we have extended family but not immediate), and one for a position in the middle of nowhere, about an hour from our hometown, with next to zero prospects for my husband to get a job. I’ve had one (unsuccessful) phone screen for our dream city/hometown.
    I’m at the point now where I’m getting requests for interviews, but travel expenses would be my own. At $400+ a pop, I can’t possibly go everywhere and I just don’t know what to do. Initially we were very “we’ll take anything!” but now that it’s time to drop the cash, nothing seems perfect. At the same time I don’t want to miss an opportunity. I just don’t know what to do.

    1. Sarah in DC*

      Would your landlord be open to a short term or month to month lease? Maybe if you offered 60 days notice? Obviously that doesn’t fix the job problem, but it at least gives you some breathing room.

    2. Sunflower*

      Can you go to one of the cities and stay there with family for a week or two at a time? You could interview, network while you’re there. Other than that, skyping?

    3. alice*

      Are they doing preliminary phone or Skype interviews? If they are, that should give you an idea of whether you’d want to work at the company/whether you’d be a good fit. You should be able to narrow down your options from there. It sounds like your current situation isn’t horrible, so I wouldn’t jump on an opportunity that doesn’t meet your needs or for some reason doesn’t feel right.

      I get that you’re on a tight time frame right now, but is it likely that you’d get an offer and be able to move in two weeks or less? If not, I’d renew the lease. Better safe than sorry.

      Also, when you do travel for an interview, can you stay with family to cut back on cost? (Maybe you’re already planning on that, but I’m throwing it out here just in case.)

  36. anonanonanon*

    Anyone here do freelance writing/editing/proofreading work? I have a full-time job, but I’d love to start making some extra money on the side to help pay off some bills and make finances a bit easier month to month. Most of the jobs I’ve found online seem to be for content mills that pay $0.01/word or $1/1,000 words. I’ve heard people talk about getting $12-15/hour for online contract/freelance side jobs or getting $100 per article, but I can’t seem to find any of those jobs. I don’t really have a portfolio I can send out since almost all of the writing and editing I’ve done professionally are under non-disclosure agreements.

    Any suggestions or resources would be helpful and appreciated!

      1. Anony-moose*

        I’ve been freelance writing on the side for about five years and have loved it. I actually just started a blog about the process that I can send you if you are interested!

        I’ve found the website Make a Living Writing a good resource. She has great articles, links, and information.

        But in a nutshell:
        1) Build a portfolio. Talk to family, friends, pick up some cheap work or even just write on your own.
        2) Build a network. Let everyone know you are writing. You’d be amazed what you will uncover.
        3) Don’t get bogged down on bidding sites like Elance and oDesk. I have some great clients through them but it’s not the norm.
        4) Pitch when you have time, and cultivate the hell out of the clients you have.

        Right now I have one long-term client I’ve worked with for two years, and one client who knew I wrote and reached out to me via linked in. It’s been a GREAT way to make some extra money!

        1. Anony-moose*

          Oh, and I should mention that I started out with pathetic rates but now charge $25 to $30/hour. It just takes time and networking.

    2. Jessica*

      I don’t do freelance work, but a close friend does freelance copy editing and proofreading work. She got into it by knowing people in publishing who needed freelancers to complete projects and has grown her side business by word of mouth.

      Maybe you can put it out there that you are looking for freelance work? Or do some low paying freelance work to start so that you have a portfolio?

      1. anonanonanon*

        I actually work in publishing, so I unfortunately can’t go that avenue since it’s a conflict of interest.

        1. Lore*

          Interesting. I also work in publishing and we are allowed to do outside freelance work–not for any projects of my division but for other companies and even other divisions of our parent company. This applies to copyediting and proofreading, interior design, covers, etc.

    4. Mimmy*

      Stupid question, but what *exactly* is copy-editing? I had someone tell me a couple of years ago that I’d make a “wonderful editor” because of my keen attention to details. Is it more than just checking for typos, grammar and accuracy?

      1. anonanonanon*

        The exact definition varies by field, but in all the publishing companies I’ve worked in, copy-editors generally focus on format, style guidelines, grammar, and display copy (headlines, pullquotes, photo or diagram captions). Sometimes, depending on the project, we use copy-editors for terminology and accuracy, but more often than not those projects go to subject matter experts for accuracy checks and copy-editing. We depend on copy-editors to make manuscripts or documents ready for publication.

        I think people sometimes have the impression that editors tend to only look for typos or grammatical issues. I can’t speak for every company or other industries, but book publishing tends to have proofreaders to catch the typos and grammatical issues, copy-editors to get manuscripts ready to be printed and to adhere to style guidelines, and various other editors to work on the other stages of the manuscript or work with the author.

        1. Liane*

          I am Copy Editor for a small game company’s blog, and my job description is much closer to “proofreader.” I have very little style-checking, but it may be because this is a different field, a much smaller business and/or the Managing Editor (my boss and a published author) doesn’t see the need for a style guide. Now, if one of the writers uses a format for an article or series of articles, I make sure it is uniform. I also do all types of editing tasks for Managing Editor’s articles, at his request, because the two of us are the entire editorial staff.

          And thanks for explaining what Copy Editor usually involves. Now I know more about what is more in line with my actual skills and experience.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          That’s basically what I do at work–the SMEs write the reports and I assemble the parts (if they have modules) and check formatting, sentence structure, see that the text matches the screenshot, etc. Then I send them out. I modified the corporate style guide a little for our department and designed a new template so all the reports match. It’s not really portfolio worthy, I guess.

    5. Macedon*

      Afraid you need to have or quickly grow a professional network likely to want regular work. Check out med/big name publishers calling for freelancers – get a gig once, make sure to stress your availability after.

      It’s unfortunately difficult to make solid money off writing/editing otherwise, in my experience. It always works out better to try for part-time work with flexible hours in this industry.

      1. anonanonanon*

        I work for one of the big publishers, so I can’t work as a freelancer for any of the other big companies since it’s a conflict of interest. Though, I can say that in terms of hiring freelancers, they’re very picky and 8 times out of 10 use people who used to work in the industry over people who have no industry experience. Part of my issue is that the people I network with can’t offer me any work since it’s against their company’s policy and mine.

        1. Lore*

          I said this above but I also work at one of the big publishers and this is absolutely not our policy. I hire freelancers from other divisions of my parent company and the pay goes directly on their paycheck and I’d say a third of our freelancers are full time staff at another publisher, and most of my colleagues do freelance work elsewhere. You might want to s

          1. Lore*

            Sorry, hit submit. Solicit literary journals or other publications of university and small presses if that’s allowed. I freelance for a literary journal-only twice a year but interesting work. Not nearly as good pay though.

    6. Post-doc*

      I just started doing freelance editing for scientific manuscripts, grants, etc. and I really dislike it so far. The content is all from non-native English speaker, written about extremely complex scientific subject matter (I have an engineering PhD so this isn’t a problem for me if the writing makes sense). The pay is only $10 / 1000 words. By the time I finally understand what the authors are trying to say and figure out a way to say it more clearly, I think I’m only hitting about $10 / hr, which is is way too low. I’m also frustrated that I have received low quality ratings, but I haven’t received any usable feedback from the higher up editors to improve (and there was a typo in one of the responses which killed me).

      Definitely make sure the job is worth your time or the experience is truly worth it. So far I am not seeing much value at all and I’m a little concerned it is a bit of a scam.

    7. Cristina in England*

      I have gotten a couple of jobs from Upwork (used to be oDesk) specifically editing academic papers. My problem specifically with those sites is that you are literally facing globalization, competing directly with people in Malaysia or India who charge $3/hour (the minimum for oDesk bids, I think). Most job postings on there want to pay very little. It can be hard unless you have specialized skills or subject knowledge. See also the Clients From Hell blog.

      I wouldn’t recommend going into writing/editing/proofreading for some extra pocket money (see the photography thread above) because the work needed to get started is quite a lot if you already have a FT job and this isn’t your long-term dream or anything. I have made much more selling some used toys and craft supplies on ebay and etsy, and I hate selling things, I’d rather give them away. So far it has all been stuff I’ve had laying around the house already, and it has come to a couple hundred for minimal effort.

  37. Sadsack*

    I have a question about business casual office attire. I searched the archives and found some articles related to interview attire, but my question is about day-to-day work attire. As Allison requested in a related post, I do not want to recreate the “Great Pantyhose Debate of 2010”, which I read yesterday and, wow, there are some serious pantyhose-at-interviews proponents out there.

    Anyway, the reason for my question is that my company recently distributed a reminder about our business casual policy. I adhere to most of the rules. I do not wear sheer clothing. I don’t wear shoes that make any flip-flop sounds, and my skirts and dresses are always at the knee or just above the knee.

    I work in corporate offices and do not see customers. Our business casual dress policy includes the following: “Hosiery is optional for women with slacks or long skirts and dresses (that fall to mid-calf or lower) but still suggested for shorter skirts and dresses.“

    So, here’s the deal. I do not wear hose in warm weather. I wear it in cold weather, and I would wear it if I were wearing a suit skirt or dress to an interview or other formal event. But to my office just to go to work, in summer? No way. I am taking their suggestion as just that, a suggestion, not a hard and fast rule.

    Does anyone have any opinion on this? Am I really bucking authority, or am I right that this suggestion is up to interpretation?

    1. Alston*

      So the “suggested for shorter skirts and dresses” reads to me like “if you are in danger of flashing someone.”

      So as long as you’re not in flasher category I’d bet you’re fine.

      1. Natalie*

        They’re defining “long” as mid-calf or lower. Someone wearing a knee-length skirt is probably not actually in danger of flashing someone.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          Yeah, to me this is a pretty crazy definition of “shorter skirts”. I never wear pantyhose, I don’t wear tights in the summer, and I’m not wearing miniskirts but I also don’t wear skirts that hit below the knee, I’m short and I think it looks weird. I think you should look nice and presentable but take them at their word that hosiery is a “suggestion”.

        1. A Bug!*

          I can’t help but wonder if the person writing that memo meant to say “mid-thigh” and not “mid-calf”, because that would make a great deal more sense to me.

      3. Marcela*

        Maybe I’m not really understanding the subtle differences in hosiery, but I don’t get how pantyhose is going to avoid flashing. Until now, I thought pantyhose are the light, “transparent”, flesh colored things, and you can still see the underwear under them, while tights are the opaque ones that could prevent flashing.

    2. Colette*

      What do others in your office do?

      Personally, I think bare legs are fine, but it’s really about what the norm is at your company.

    3. Natalie*

      I really doubt anyone is noticing. As long as your skirts are already a work appropriate length, you will not be showing enough leg to scandalize someone with your lack of hose.

      1. Sadsack*

        You are probably right. I see some people here wear some really questionable outfits that seem to me to be obviously inappropriate for our office, but then I have to wonder if I am being oblivious about what I am wearing. I guess not. I like Headachey’s strategy of being fine as long as I am only breaking one of the rules at a time.

    4. Headachey*

      I’d read that as optional. What do other women in your office do? Do bare-legged women get side-eye?

      You could always adopt the strategy I used in a conservative office with an unwritten, unacknowledged dress code – assume that bare legs, bare arms, and visible toes are verboten, and strive to break no more than two of those rules at a time.

      1. Sadsack*

        Hey, I like your way of thinking! Our policy is otherwise pretty accepting. Open toes and sandals are ok if they don’t make noise. Sleeveless is ok, but not tank tops or spaghetti straps without a sweater.

      2. afiendishthingy*

        Ha! I frequently break all three of those in the summer, but we’re quite relaxed – don’t wear jeans and a t-shirt and you’re good.

        1. Arielle*

          My life goal is to never have a job where I can’t wear jeans and a t-shirt to work. I love working for startups. :)

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I get to wear them here, but I got used to dressing up just a little bit more on holiday (I didn’t want to look like a schlub). Now I feel weird if I wear a t-shirt without a cardigan. I still wear jeans, but it’s more like jeans/nice shirt or t-shirt with cardigan and or a scarf/ cool earrings/nice shoes (though I’m wearing Skechers today because it’s been raining). I wore capris the other day and felt naked. o_O

    5. Kelly L.*

      Hmm. It’s really horribly and passive-aggressively written, but I think they’re at least Strongly Encouraging, if not outright requiring, hose with shorter skirts. “Suggested” is a hideous word choice here, but they’re contrasting it with the “optional” of the first clause, so I think they mean “suggested” as “yes please do it this way.”

      (People, write better than that.)

      I also think it’s old-fashioned and shouldn’t be a rule, but it’s not up to me, alas.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, I think I’ll keep doing what I have been doing. I doubt that my manager is considering having a sit-down about my lack of pantyhose. That conversation would be awkward and hilarious.

        1. Judy*

          I did work at a place where pantyhose was directly called out in the dress code for use with dresses and skirts. One of the HR managers had a thing about it. She was known for sending people home for this. She also sent home someone with foot issues for wearing inappropriate shoes.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            At Exjob, I had a foot issue once too and had asked BossWife if I could wear Crocs until it cleared up, but she wouldn’t let me. Then I found out that Crocs sold regular shoes with the foamy stuff on the inside. A black pair of Mary Janes later and all was well. :)

            Another time, a temp showed up wearing a blazer over a VERY low-cut blouse and all the guys in the office were leering at her. BossWife saw her and made Supervisor send her home!

    6. JenGray*

      I think that bear legs are fine as long as the dress/skirt is knee length or longer. I never wear pantyhose anymore just because I feel that they are more hassle than they are worth. But I also either wear pants or maxi skirts. I will occasionally wear something that hits around my knee but I have Eczema so I have a not so great looking spot of dry skin below my knees that I don’t like to show people. I think that unless they specifically say you must wear pantyhose you are probably fine.

    7. Anonsie*

      I think they are suggesti-telling you they are required but if you don’t see other people doing it, screw it.

    8. Kirsten*

      My office is pretty casual (we can wear jeans any day of the week) and no one wears stockings in the summer. Unless someone is looking very closely at your legs it’s hard to even tell. I would just not wear them and if HR says anything then start to wear them. (This may be terrible advice though haha.)

    9. Expendable Redshirt*

      I hate hosiery with the passion of a thousand burning suns.

      My advice is to go on a crusade to destroy all the hosiery in the world. Then the company can’t request it in te dress code.

    10. TootsNYC*

      I kinda doesn’t matter what we think. It really only matters what your boss thinks, and what your company’s dress-code police think.

      I would say that if I were you, I’d make sure my skirts weren’t particularly short and go without hose. If they don’t like it, they can say something to you about it.

  38. Amber Rose*

    Any tips on corporate blogging? I’m apparently the marketing manager now (ha!) and they want me to write about a new service we’re offering that nobody else offers in our industry and I’m drawing a blank.

    Apparently I also have to start tweeting… any tips on what I should tweet? I’ve never even used Twitter, though I do know how it works.

    1. Rin*

      With Twitter, we sometimes will link to articles our office has written or we’ll retweet from people we follow. If nothing else, I’ll sometimes look at business sites for good articles. Even a Happy Friday or a Throwback Thursday picture will suffice. We try to keep it business related but also personable.

    2. louise*

      We have a branch of the state’s small business administration with an office at a local university. They have classes almost every month on topics like this. They’re targeted toward small businesses, but a lot of it applies to any kind of business related social media. I attended one of these sessions and was surprised to find it was definitely not a waste of time.

    3. Anony-moose*

      Blogging can be so valuable but it is also really time consuming.

      I freelance write on the side and a lot of this is blogging. It regularly takes me 2-3 hours to research and write a blog article, including sourcing images. When I give my clients a blog it’s ready to post.

      If you do some research about blogging as a lead magnet, it’s pretty compelling. But the blog has to be done well and it can be hard to find time! I think that’s why a lot of companies hire a freelance writer to blog for them – you come up with the ideas, they do the rest.

      If your budget allows, could you hire a freelance writer?

      And as for Twitter, I still have no clue!

      1. Amber Rose*

        I’d have to convince my boss that blogging matters first. He doesn’t think it does, which is why I got all the passwords kinda shoved at me and told to deal with it. We’re a small company in a niche market. We need an online presence to reassure customers that we’re not outdated but there’s no budget for online marketing really.

        1. Diddly*

          That’s annoying. Entirely depends on industry but short interviews with team members could be interesting – showing that you’re experts in your field – gives more personality to company – faces.
          Useful to figure out number of posts you’ll do say a month. And perhaps come up with regular themes for those blog post – unrelated examples – but say you did four a week, week one is always cat pictures, week two scientific papers, week three an interview, week 4 make up tips… Or something like that. With writing regular blogs it helps to have themes to know what you can write up and also have a lot of stuff half written in the background. Planning is the key! (V much lacking in last job.) Helps to have a schedule and know what’s going to posted, when, so you can do a load of preparation and save time rather than just writing the blog on the day it was due. (I was reliant on loads of other ppl who would plan, schedule or essentially help me out – instead expected me to bug them for information…)

          2. moose*

            Yes to all of this! I plan my blog like three months in advance and write as far ahead as possible, when I’m working on personal stuff. For clients I write at least a week or two in advance. It’s so helpful to have “blog” as part of your job and not just an afterthought. Of course it can be hard to make the time and justify the hours spent planning, researching, and writing.

            There’s a lot of great research about blogging as an inbound marketing strategy. It’s not necessarily related to one niche but I wonder if you could take some of it and make a case for the time, planning, and resources it will take to have a good corporate blog, and then work in the ROI associated with a well-run blog?

    4. Bend & Snap*

      Oh boy. I run both a corporate blog and a corporate Twitter account (each of these took 6+ months to plan and launch). You really shouldn’t just start and fly by the seat of your pants.

      For the blog: identify the mission, audience, type of info you’re communicating, voice, author(s), where you’re going to get legal imagery and what promotional vehicles you’re going to use. You need a strategy and an editorial calendar of topics.

      Twitter: Ditto. Types of content you can think about are offers, white papers, news, articles about your company, videos, analyst reports, etc–basically, good corporate Twitter accounts are vehicles for content, but are also entertaining. Audience is really important here, and your content should be tailored to that.

      It’s also good to start slow. Walk before you run to make sure you’re setting a sustainable pace for both bandwidth and content.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        Also you need to think about naming, branding, etc. so that the look, feel & tone are consistent with the rest of the company branding.

    5. Diddly*

      With tweeting you want to be informative and supportive and only occasionally act like you’re seriously marketing your business. You want to build a following who is interested in your business and product and sees you as an expert, but they don’t want to be blasted with loads of marketing. Building communication is useful. But it can be a bit of a time-drain… You can use sites such as hoot suite to program a load of tweets at a time instead, and then check up intermittently. Depends on your industry and business users whether it’s actually worthwhile to put a lot of time into.

    6. Ad Astra*

      Google “content marketing” and you can probably find some good resources. My best advice is to write briefly, use a bit of a conversational tone, and find good photos to go along with it.

  39. Persephone Mulberry*

    Our internet has crashed twice in the last three days – 3 hours on Wednesday and 90 minutes today. It has really lit a fire under my manager’s a** to do two things: first, get the backup solution that was initially discussed 8 months ago in place, and second, lobby with her manager for a dedicated IT person. Cross your fingers that she can make it happen, because right now everyone comes to me despite the fact that this is neither my area of interest nor training, and I’m about at bitch eating crackers with every person who starts a sentence with “can you help me”.

  40. Stephanie*

    Y’all, I’m conflicted on this internal(ish) job (I’m a contractor at the company) I’m interviewing for. I never heard back from another internal interview I had back in March (followed-up with no response) and had a coupe of interviews (but no offers). So….this is all I have at the moment.

    I’m heading in today to sit for a test for the job. I asked my current bosses and they said that that’s a good sign as all the would-be managers at the company take this in the late stages of the interview. I’m interested in the work and it’d be good skills to gain.

    Just the pay. Ugh. It’s comically low ($14.50/hr) and it’s like 0.7 FTE on a graveyard shift. (And they want someone with a math/science BS with intermediate to advanced Excel skills.) Commute would be significantly further (uh, since I can’t really afford to move out of my folks’ house on that little money, even in my sort of low COL city). There are some other non-monetary benefits that might be useful, like stock plans and tuition reimbursement.

    If I got it, I’d take it because it’d still be better than what I’m doing now. But this is probably the most ambivalent I’ve felt about a potential job yet.

    1. Dan*

      I had an interview like that from a household-name employer. Pay was $45k/yr, wanting an MS in a technical field with industry experience. When I interviewed with them, I got the impression everybody wanted to be somewhere else. This was in 2008, right as the recession was in full swing. That was the only job I ever prayed for a rejection from.

    2. Audiophile*

      I’ve been there, Stephanie. I interviewed with a synagogue for a communications position. Prior to the start of the interview, I was super excited. But once we got down to business, I discovered they couldn’t meet the low end of my salary range (they were about 2k shy) plus I would be rreplacing two part time workers and “eventually” their graphics person. My graphics skills are minimal but I’m certainly willing to learn. Long story short, I was glad I never heard back from them.

      How about I move to Arizona and we become rommates? What say you? Lol.

      1. Stephanie*

        Ha, you don’t want to move here this time of year.

        Yeah, this is a “Well, if it’s meant to be…” job.

    3. Artemesia*

      Think if it as a slightly better platform from which to search for the next position and start immediately if you get it, looking of course for something you would be happy with long term.

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, that’s how I’m looking at it. And I guess I could point to being promoted as well and the skills should be broad enough and transferable enough to other companies or industries (unlike like my former field). It’s just like “Damn it. I thought this could have ended this horrible job search.”

        1. TootsNYC*

          Think of it as a ladder–with lots of little rungs?

          And you can keep the external job search humming, just not quite as high a frequency/pitch.

  41. Jennifer*

    Still waiting around to hear or not on the job I want. Keep checking my cell when I’m outside, even though it’s probably “too soon” anyway. Meanwhile, my office is prepping for other changes like a move and new business cards and I got asked whether or not I want new ones. Uh…. I’ll pass for now, I guess. This makes me wonder about the other things they’re going to spend money on for me, like a new fancy chair. But…well, odds are I won’t get it anyway (or at least I need to not get my hopes up because that seems like a jinx) so I should shut it.

    Just wondering on a few things:
    * am I obligated to tell my supervisor about being up for the other job if it’s at the same employer but in a different office (one ours works with a fair amount)? She does know people there so I have to reasonably assume at some point it may get back to her, but I don’t really want to say anything unless I get an interview anyway. No point in getting anyone’s hopes up or down until then.
    * What the heck would I do etiquette-wise if I actually got another job? Other than I have to write some kind of letter announcing my quitting and give two weeks notice. I’ve never actually quit anywhere voluntarily before. What do I say to the other employer if they say yes? Do I wait for a written offer letter before I submit the quit?

    (I’m sure there’s AAM on this somewhere, hopefully someone can point me there…?)

    1. Diddly*

      I’m not sure I follow – have you applied for the job and you’re waiting to hear if you got an interview? Or are you waiting on the results of the interview?

      My understanding from this blog is basically don’t say anything till you’ve signed on the dotted line – especially don’t quit.
      And your letter and 2 weeks notice sounds normal, I think if you can you should pull aside your boss and ask to speak to them, basically inform them you’ve loved working with them (whether true or not) and that you’ve now been given the opportunity to move on and so are handing in your resignation and two weeks notice (or whatever you need doing.) You could then ask how you should announce it to the team and what your manager needs help with for the transition. (Or you might have something prepared.)
      But don’t do anything till you’ve got an offer letter/contract.

      1. Jennifer*

        I JUST GOT THE INTERVIEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) In a week and a half!

        So there’s the answer :)

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      When I’ve applied for internal jobs it’s alwys been policy to tell your current manager, and I agree with that as a curtesy your should tell your boss.

      When you leave write up you letter of resignation, keep it short and simple make sure to include your leaving date, and be sure to have the conversation in person.

    3. TootsNYC*

      Do not worry in the least about whether you’re inconveniencing the company w/ business cards and a new chair. Seriously. Not a problem.

      1. Windchime*

        Yes. Business cards are like $6/box and someone else can use the chair if/when you leave your job.

  42. What was that?*

    How do you deal with a boss who asks you the same questions over and over all day long? E.g.:

    Boss: Who submits all TPA reports?

    Me: Jacob submits them.

    Boss: So Jacob submits all TPA reports?

    Me: Yes.

    … 5 minutes later …

    Boss: Who should should I contact about next week’s TPA reports?

    Me: ?!?!?!?!!?!?!?

    Boss hates when you say things like: “As I mentioned last week.” “As I told you previously.” “As we discussed last week.” For her, it’s insubordinate to mention that we’ve had this conversation (10 times!!!) already.

    2. Anie*

      I have a co-worker like that. Older and mostly helpless with technology.

      I can not tell you how many times he’s asked for basic things like, “How do I get a Euro symbol in my Word Doc?” or “How do I download and open this white paper?” or “How do I log on to this site?”

      Recently he asked me if I knew how to do a “split screen.” Because he only has one monitor, I was pretty sure he had no idea what he was asking for. When I clarified, it turned out he didn’t know how to minimize browsers so that he could have 2 Word docs next to each other or 2 web pages showing at the same time.

      He’s always very apologetic about asking, which is miles better than a demanding person, but it’s still repetitive. Fortunately, I’m pressed him to start writing this crap down.

      I’m not IT.

      1. Diddly*

        Hmm with your I think you can definitely draw them up a handy hints doc, for these things they keep asking especially as they’re apologetic.

    3. Mean Something*

      I think you’ve probably got to acknowledge that you’re dealing with someone who needs information repeated and not try to turn Boss into someone who isn’t going to ask you the same question three or four different ways. You are probably a person who can hear something once and it sticks, but not everyone is like this. (I’m a high school teacher, so I get constant demonstrations of how important it can be to give information in multiple ways–some kids can hear it once and remember it forever, but some do better if it’s written on the board and a handout AND spoken.)

      You might want to think about whether there is anything in the situation that might be triggering Boss’s anxiety or uncertainty, and/or anything you can do to provide a quick and easy visual reference that might head off some of the questions. For example, if you keep a certain schedule in your head, posting it might make things easier for Boss. Don’t just point at it and sigh, of course–say “Here’s that info–I thought it might be good to have this where we can check it easily.” Then, the next time Boss asks, look at that info before answering–model how to find it.

      Boss might have some kind of information processing issue (auditory, perhaps) or a generally high anxiety level or possibly an attention deficit. The challenge is to figure out how to jigger the environment to smooth out whatever parts of this you can so that both you and Boss are more comfortable. Good luck!

      1. What was that?*

        You might be right.

        Although, boss never seems anxious, I think the boss assumes that I will know the info so there is no need to retain it.

    4. moose*

      Yep. This is my life. I just keep saying the same thing over and over again. It drives me crazy though.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I think sometimes the problem is that the boss doesn’t store certain information in his head; he stores it in other people’s heads and retrieves it by asking each and every time.

    5. Diddly*

      Hmm if it was regular things you could draw up a doc that spells these out. (If they’re all related) and hand it to boss, not sure how you phrase what this doc is though…
      Think it’s just a quirk for you to deal with and kind of agree with boss saying as I said previously etc comes off as kind of passive aggressive or just a bit childish – although it’s frustrating clearly your boss doesn’t realise that they’ve asked you this a million times before so it just comes off as rude.

    6. fposte*

      Unless she’s accusing you of failing to tell her stuff, there’s no point in noting that you’ve told her that before, so definitely put an end to that.

      Is there a category of stuff that she asks about? That may just be the stuff that she doesn’t retain well, and you might find a way for her to get that information otherwise. But overall I’d go with “If she asks, just tell her.” I suspect there are other things you don’t like about her, because this doesn’t seem like a big thing on its own.

      1. What was that?*

        I don’t/haven’t pulled the “as we’ve discussed before card.” Other people have, multiple times and my boss has complained about them ad nauseam. The first time my boss told me that was one of her “triggers,” I knew not to say it.

        However, it’s been over a year and I’m still repeating things we’ve discussed multiple times over the year. It’s driving me (and several other people) crazy but I can’t complain about it apparently.

        She asks about almost everything, all the time.

        1. AVP*

          My boss is also like that. The only thing to do is grit your teeth, smile and answer.

          There was one thing he kept asking if I had done – a one-time thing that I did once five years ago but I noticed he would frequently ask if I had done it or not. Finally I was like, “you know, that was a one-time task that I did ages ago. If it’s stressing you out, let’s talk about why, because it has DEFINITELY been done.” It turns out he thought it was one of those technical things that you had to do once a month or so. He stopped asking about it for a good four months but now he’s back to asking about it relatively often :)

        2. Kate M*

          If it’s happened enough to be one of her triggers, then that probably shows you she’s been like that for long enough that people have been saying it to her for years. I don’t really think there’s much you can do to change it. If it’s the same type of stuff she’s asking about (maybe like things pertaining to how a certain department works or something?), then maybe a one-pager cheat sheet would help to keep right by her desk. However, if she’s this bad, I doubt she would even use it. As long as she’s not blaming you for not having the information, I might just suck it up and repeat my answers.

    7. Monodon monoceros*

      My new boss (she’s been here about 3 months) is a bit like this so far. I’ve been wondering if is just a thing with it being a new job for her, lots to learn, and lots of change in her life moving here, but it hasn’t really abated over the 3 months.

      So far I’ve been just answering as if she hasn’t asked before. I think that’s really the only thing you can do without seeming a bit snotty. But I feel your pain. This has been making me a little bit nuts, and it’s only been 3 months. I hope it ends….

  43. Kay*

    What do people think is the appropriate amount of lee-way to give a new employee who just isn’t getting “it”?
    I hired a new person who seemed great on paper and was very good in her interview, but I’m struggling because she doesn’t seem to be catching on to the work. I work as a contract analyst (read…just staring at contracts and submissions all day) for the State, and she is demonstrating a lack of understanding of the basics like how to minimize windows (?!) and how to “save as” and over write other files. I feel like I’m rushing to judgment because she’s only been working here for 7 days, but part of me is frustrated because I’ve had to go over the same instructions multiple times and I’m concerned because I really can’t take the time to teach someone how to use Windows . How long should I give her to get used to the work before discussing this with her?

    1. Ollie*

      Ack! I just interviewed at a place where they give a test on using Windows because they’ve hired people in the past who were great on paper/interviews, but didn’t know how to use a computer their first day on the job.

      I don’t think you’re rushing to judgement at all. Knowing how to use a computer is a really basic skill and not having that skill is causing a problem with her getting work done (and causing issues with you having to take time to explain things you shouldn’t need to explain). It’s not really a judgement thing so much as a practical/logical thing. I’d discuss it with her right away. Maybe she needs to watch YouTube tutorials or get a “For Dummies” book to learn the basics. I’m not sure if that’s something she should do as “training” at work, or something she should be expected to do at home.

    2. Anie*

      Recently, I joked to someone about how stupid companies are that still include, on job posts, things like “Must be profecent in Microsoft Word.”

      Yeah, it hurts me that people like this are still out there. It’s 2015. Even fast food restaurants use computers.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        That is why I put MS Office in my resume if I saw it in the job posting. I knew they would expect it. What I hate are those tests that only let you do stuff one way–and it’s NOT the way I do it!

    3. fposte*

      I would discuss it with her right away. “I’m concerned that you’re not seeming comfortable enough with the computer programs to work on them independently, which is what the job needs. Let’s try a week where you have to find the answers to your software questions by Googling, rather than asking me, and see how that works.” I don’t know if you’re invested enough in her to cover an online tutorial for her or not (maybe you guys have a subscription to lynda.com, if you’re state), but that’s another possibility.

      Can you let her go if it’s not working out? This is a pretty big deficit (and an illustration of why a sample run at an interview can be so useful). As you can probably tell from my suggested script, my goal would be not only to point her toward how I’d like her to work but also for her to take less of my time; if you can’t terminate her, minimizing her impact on you is going to be an important part of the goal.

      2. Kay*

        I really like the language you’ve used here. Part of the issue is that we are all temp workers with the state, so there really isn’t any investment in skills development. Very much sink or swim.

        I can let her go if it doesn’t work, I’ve been thinking about that today when her uncertainty came to a head. But…then I feel really bad because I know how overwhelming the first week can be, and lord knows I’ve made dumb mistakes before. I wonder if that reaction is too rash.

        1. AnotherFed*

          It’s kinder to tell her now that she needs to do better, and give her meaningful, concrete things she can work on fixing (or that she can look at and realize she needs a new job soon). That way she has a chance to improve, and if she doesn’t it is not a surprise if she needs to be let go.

    4. NicoleK*

      I would discuss it with her right away and suggest free tutorials, computer classes, and etc.

    5. Development professional*

      I’m wondering, is it JUST that she doesn’t know how to use the computer? Or is it that AND you “had to go over the same instructions multiple times” about non-computer stuff? In addition to thinking about whether she has the skills for the job, it might be worth considering whether your method of communicating instructions to her is working for her. Is it all verbal, when she would do better with an email? If instructions have to be verbal, are you asking her to repeat them back to you to ensure she understands what you’re asking for? Is she writing an instruction sheet for herself after she figures out how to do something new, so that next time she doesn’t have to ask you? You might have to be really explicit with her about how to do these things and why they’re important. It’ll take more time up front, but could pay off in the long run if she’s exhibiting good contributions in other areas.

      1. Kay*

        I think you are right that the frustration is definitely stemming from the combination of issues. I tried having her shadow multiple people through the job, gave her written instructions, and had her take notes and go through some practice exercises. I think part of the issue is that I get her to verify that she understands, but she still comes back later (not referencing her notes) and asks me how to do it. Looking over your suggestions, I realized I haven’t been asking her “Have you looked at your notes from before?” which might be a good starting spot ^_^.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          “Have you looked at your notes from before?”

          In my head, I heard Roy from The IT Crowd asking, “Have you tried turning it off and back on again?”

    6. JenGray*

      I don’t think you are rushing to judgement- computers are a fact of life nowadays. If the job posting/description (they are two separate things but as this point she should have seen both) talk about computer skills and your not seeing them than I would talk to her. I think it is best to have a discussion because perhaps she is just overwhelmed with a new job- sometimes anxiety gets the better of people. But it is in everyone’s best interest if you nip it in the bud than when it is easy to fix as opposed to later when things have gotten way out of hand.

    7. MKB*

      I would probably give her another 2 weeks then talk to her about it. I currently have one of these. It bothered me that a week in she wasn’t getting it, now it’s been 18 months and although she can do her day to day, she’s never going to excel at this job. She was a bad hire that I completely regret.

    8. Sunshine Brite*

      It’s already been too long I feel like if it’s standard systems. I work with someone who can’t catch onto my work and as their coworker it’s really frustrating to see them get the easier overall caseload and tasks because they can’t handle the more complex things rather than spreading it around evenly.

    9. Kristen*

      Oh boy, I went through this last year with an office assistant we hired. Her learning style was just way different than anyone I had ever trained before and I had to adjust to make it easier for her to understand and make it all “click” for her. It was a very frustrating 6 months but she finally got it down and is doing much better now.

  44. Ollie*

    I applied for a job where, during the phone screening, interview and a follow up e-mail about the hiring timeline, I was told that they tell always warn candidates that any offer made is conditional, until a group of board members is able to vote and make the offer official (so the candidate shouldn’t resign from their current job until after the vote).

    It seemed weird to be told this since so many times since it’s not relevant unless you’re the candidate getting an offer (and I bombed the interview, so it seems even weirder that they would mention it again in the follow up e-mail). My friend is getting my hopes up that it’s a “sign” that they’re going to make an offer to me, but I know Alison has said about 900 times not to take anything as an indication you’ll be getting an offer except an *actual offer* itself. So I should just ignore this, right?

    1. Mean Something*

      If they started mentioning it at the phone screening, then yes, they probably say it to everyone. They’ve probably been burned before. Good luck, though!

    2. Today's anon*

      We say something similar repeatedly to emphasize that our process is very long and bureaucratic and there are many aspects that are out of the hiring person’s hand. Candidates have trouble hearing this or can’t believe the process takes as long as it does but it really does.

      1. Ollie*

        That makes sense. They did me the process would be long and bureaucratic, so I assumed I wouldn’t hear back from them for months. (I was surprised to find out they’re actually making a decision in a week or two.)

  45. voluptuousfire*

    I started using a bullet point cover letter with my applications and it seems to be garnering a good response rate. I have a phone interview later this morning for a position that seems pretty tailor made for me: an HR admin in ed tech. I’ve worked in education in the past and loved the environment. I can also see myself working in HR and this would be a great first step.

    I’m also slightly further along in the interview process with another company but this ed tech role sounds great. After reading the HR lady’s Linkedn, it seems like we would get along very well (the woman I’m screening with would be my boss). The only fly in the ointment is that I interviewed for a temp gig that would start most likely Tuesday and would last until the end of August. If I didn’t have anything else in the pipeline (or something less favorable), I wouldn’t hesitate in taking it. The interview was brief and the contact who interviewed me really seemed to like me and I’m only up against one other person. Unless the other candidate was a dark horse, chances are I’ll be offered the gig later this afternoon. I’m really hesitant to accept it, especially since the pay hasn’t been settled yet. I just completed a successful temp gig and was glad to have the opportunity to reestablish myself but I’m not sure I want to proceed directly into another gig. Like I said, if I had no or less appealing options, I wouldn’t hesitate to accept it. I’d really like to see how these two roles pan out. But again, quitting a temp job isn’t the end of the world. I’m also slightly worried about accepting and quitting so quickly, potentially causing damage to my relationship with the agency and them with their client. I’ve been lucky with this agency so far and if the two other roles didn’t work out, I don’t want to have to go through finding another agency to get me work.

    1. voluptuousfire*

      OK, phone screen went well but won’t know the results for another 10 days at least. So maybe I will take the temp gig if the money’s right.

    2. What was that?*

      Agencies are usually aware that you’d prefer full-time, permanent employment. You shouldn’t worry about upsetting either the company that is the temp assignment or the agency because most people would prefer not to be temps.

  46. some1*

    What do you think annoys IT people more, installing Google Chrome or streaming music? Discuss.

    2. Natalie*

      Amusingly, I originally downloaded Chrome because I wanted to stream music. (I couldn’t install Flash Player and Chrome has it built in.) Years later, my IT department has finally come around to accepting that IE sucks and now Chrome comes standard on all of our machines.

    3. cuppa*

      My IT person told me to install Chrome, so I’m going with streaming music. But, I’ve done both.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      Streaming music, because we have limited bandwidth (as I post this using Chrome, which I installed with their permission).

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I want to say that you have had bad IT management, but actually, you can manage/lock out IE’s policies (settings/permissions) on a domain (company network), and you can’t do that with Chrome. If you have users that are constantly deleting system files or downloading viruses, I could see IT management preferring IE.

        1. Natalie*

          I’m not sure that’s still true. My office Chrome has a whole bunch of permissions locked out, and I can’t download extensions.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            Oooh, I’ll have to look into that! It’s not really my area, but people sometimes ask my feedback on stuff like that. It might provide me with some ammunition! :D

            1. Natalie*

              I suspect that’s why my IT department was finally willing to let us have Chrome standard.

    7. Ad Astra*

      IT downloaded Chrome for me at my request after I asked my boss and he ran it past, like, three other people. It makes me feel kind of sneaky and special to have a browser that works while everyone else is stuck using IE.

      IT did not, however, share their opinions about this.

    9. GigglyPuff*

      Where I work everyone has downloaded Chrome, but due to admin rights, we don’t have permission to change preference files, meaning can’t get rid of auto-fill, etc…pain in the @ss

    10. another IT manager*

      Now that I have enough bandwidth, I don’t really care about streaming. And Chrome updates itself, so less work for me.

      Right now, our HRIS that needs Java to do payroll pains me the most. (Java wants to be updated about once a week. And the browsers won’t run outdated versions anymore.)

    13. Elizabeth West*

      We can put Chrome on our machines, but we’re only allowed to stream Pandora (GACK), so I’d say music. I stream my soundtrack site over my phone when there’s something I want to listen to, which means I have to queue-stalk all day. I can’t stream all day because it would eat up my data.

      2. Stephanie*

        Former fed. (Left in 2010.) We had IE 6 (I think), the entire time I was there. I fantasized about having a browser with tabs.

        My friend at another agency was stuck with Lotus Notes. We did at least use Outlook at my agency.

        1. TheLazyB*

          I am sure that it won’t surprise anyone to hear we had Lotus Notes with our IE6. In fact that’s been my email from 2004 to ealry 2015. So glad to have started a new job with outlook!

    15. GreatLakesGal*

      Chrome.

      One person downloads it and suddenly it’s the insidious default browser on everyon’s desktop— but Chrome doesn’t play nicely with our top two or three applications.

      And then the IT help desk is flooded with urgent requests from multiple users who don’t know that the reason they can’t save any of their work, can’t complete documents or submit billing, etc is that they’re using Chrome.

      Signed,
      the person in the office that people ask for help when they are on hold with IT.

    16. Windchime*

      Streaming music, apparently, since it’s not allowed at our workplace. It’s blocked. When too many people are streaming, it slows down business-related traffic to an unacceptable level. So those of us who want to stream need to do it over our phones. We are allowed to use the guest wifi to do it, though.

  47. Meganly*

    I am going to go insane. It feels like for the past two months, every single engineer I work with has banded together with a commitment to completely ignore all of my emails and calls. I should be super overloaded with work, but because no one is getting back to me, I’m sitting here twiddling my thumbs and having no billable time.

    Any advice on how to not be obnoxious when you are harassing someone for information they should have given you two weeks ago for the umpteenth time?

    1. Colette*

      Can you walk over and ask?

      If not, I’d escalate – either to your manager or their manager. (“hi Sue, I haven’t received the TPS reports I’ve requested from Fred, and it occurred to me that he might be out. Is there someone else who can help?”)

    2. Malissa*

      Find them in person and ask. Do this enough they’ll start answering emails. I had to employ this tactic with a former coworker who used to ignore calls, emails and instant messages when I needed her to do her job so I could do mine. I had to go camp in her office a few times before she got the hint that it really would be easier to just respond to my initial request in a timely manner.

      1. Thinking out loud*

        +1. I had to go to another office sometimes, and I’d just cheerfully say, “Hey, I was in your area and decided I’d so by to see if you had comments on my teapot design. If you haven’t looked at it yet, I can wait/come back in half an hour (depending on how long I thought it would take to do it). Don’t give them long enough to procrastinate, though – the trick is to make them do it immediately.

    3. AnotherFed*

      How clear have you been about what you want them to do, when you need it done by, and why you need it/why it’s important? If you’ve consistently been clear about that, but haven’t been getting responses and haven’t taken action, it’s going to be hard to recover and get people to start paying attention again.

      Going to people in person is a good start, but you’ll also be better off if you can explain what the impact is (and why they care about the impact) of not doing whatever it was you needed. Explain what you need for everything to get back on track, and don’t let them off the hook on failing to deliver by softening your language or implying that it’s no big deal.

      If it still continues, go to your manager – if you can’t do billable work because other people aren’t being responsive, that’s an important thing for them to know, and they have more ability to resolve things like staffing problems or other people’s priorities.

  48. louise*

    I feel overwhelmed.

    I started a new department (of one, so no reports) and came out of the gate super gung ho. Got a lot accomplished the first 3 months. Since then, I’m left with some really large projects I haven’t made good headway on and tons of little details I struggle to keep up with. I feel like more of a sprinter at work than a marathon runner. I did so much early on, but I can’t keep up that pace.

    I’m now one year in and wonder if some of what I’m feeling is perfectly normal for the stage I’m in or if I’ve established some bad habits that have me in this overwhelmed rut.

    College was 10 years ago, but I used to get this feeling every semester, about halfway through. I’d look at the syllabus, decide not to worry about a few assignments, and just take my lower grade. It doesn’t work like that in the workplace.

    I can’t figure out if the workload really is too much or if I am inefficient—or perhaps a combination. I know I waste a lot of time on lower priority tasks (like reading industry related news/articles/etc). The more overwhelmed I get, the more I do that and the more I get behind and more stressed.

    I don’t even know what my question is, just looking for ideas and encouragement, I guess.

    1. alice*

      I imagine not having coworkers in your department is contributing (just having some energy associated with your work helps). If you set up some goals with a time frame at the beginning of a new project, would that help? Then you can pace yourself.

      I do think this is normal (it is for me anyway). I get bored kind of easily, but talking to other people in the office and having good communication with my boss is what works for me.

      1. louise*

        A good reminder about communication with the boss — I’ll try to put together a couple things I think are going well and a couple things I feel stuck on and have a chat with him. Seeing if he’s pleased with the direction of things may be the shot in the arm I need for a couple projects.

    2. fposte*

      Some of this may be the end of the honeymoon period, some of this may be working style, some of this may be something like ADHD or anxiety; if you’ve never talked to a doctor about it it might be worth doing.

      That being said, I’m a sprinter masquerading as a stayer. I’ve worked long enough to know how my energy levels function and know how to break my work up into achievable tasks. Be as granular as you possibly can–for me even “Open the relevant document” counts. The reason I mentioned anxiety as a possible thing is that I think that’s pretty common with the “feeling overwhelmed and doing piddly stuff” instead syndrome–your brain is firing too much to make the executive decisions about “do this first and you know it’s done when it’s X” stuff. I suspect what might be happening is the avoidant behavior starts to snowball, and your brain decides it would rather fail by omission than commission. I also find it weirdly successful to talk myself through, sometimes even out loud, the task I need to do and the reason for my resistance to it. “I don’t want to work on the grant abstract, because it makes me feel vulnerable and uncertain, I have to keep mustering energy to write every sentence, and I’m afraid I’ll write it badly and look stupid to the peers I have to show it to.” “Okay, but you can just open the document and write an ugly sentence. That will be a success!” Celebrate every freaking little success, at least for a while.

      Make task lists; make weekly time-tables for what you’ll focus on; create systems that will guide you when your brain doesn’t feel up to the executive prioritizing decisions. I have daily and weekly task lists and a timetable, and I’m always working on additional structures.

      1. louise*

        Oh, fposte. Thank you. You’re my next favorite after Alison. Will you do a career advice blog too? Instead of Ask A Manager (though you may be one, I don’t know), it could be Ask The Cool Aunt (or Uncle; I don’t know) Who Always Talks You Down Off That Cliff.

        The world needs more of your actionable wisdom, is what I’m trying to say.

        Yes to anxiety. I don’t think the medication I’m on is meeting my needs anymore, but it’s too scary to talk to my dr about making any changes there. I’ve got some great books (which I started but never finished…) to help me explore some of the ways that impacts my day-to-day approach to tasks, both work related and domestic. I struggle in both.

        I like your bite-sized approach. I’ll give that a try. First up: Submit this comment. Close out of AAM until afternoon snack break. Open the insurance document and FOR GOODNESS SAKE, TYPE A FEW LINES, ALREADY.

        1. fposte*

          Heh. Thanks. I’ve learned a ton from reading here, that’s for sure.

          Computer stuff can help as well as hurt, too: LeechBlock and StayFocusd and their ilk can cut you off of distracty sites, and if you suffer from stuck-in-the-chairness, something like Mindful Mynah can help tip the balance between stasis and movement.

      2. catsAreCool*

        fposte is one of my favorite commenters, too.

        Sometimes I find that listening to music, especially jazz without vocals helps distract my mind away from the “What if I can’t do it?” thoughts.

    3. NacSacJack*

      A former project lead would tell me to treat big assigments like eating a big whatever. One little bit at a time. Break your big tasks down into smaller bites. Use that to gear up your sprinter mode. Unfortunatly businesses expect us to maintain a steady keel with no ups and downs while business itself goes fast/slow/fast/faster/slow/oh my gosh turtle/slow/hurry up and wait. And wonder why we aren’t steady.

  49. Anony-moose*

    How do you know when it’s time to switch careers?

    I’m 28 and have been in nonprofit fundraising for about five years. I have loved it, but over the past year have steadily fallen out of love with it.

    I’m struggling with whether I’m responding to a not-great situation at work (which I’ve been hashing out with my partner and therapist ad nauseam) or truly ready to move on. And then of course the thought of moving on is also terrifying.

    So – how do you know when it might be time to move on?

    And how the hell do you switch from a Development job? What do I do? Have any of you switched from fundraising to…to what?

    1. OriginalYup*

      Picture yourself doing Development at a different organization, one that is filled with smart wonderful people who respect and value your work. Your pay is good, your commute/office/quality of life/etc are good. It’s a successful organization that has a great mission and a deep reserve of committed sane supporters ready to be cultivated as major donors.

      Do you feel lighter, happier, or more energized?

      If yes, you’re probably fine with Development work as a whole and just not loving your current job.
      If no, you might be ready to move into a different type of work. And I think there’s plenty of places you could do, depending on your skills and interests — grant writing, marketing, project finance, etc.

      1. Anony-moose*

        “Picture yourself doing Development at a different organization, one that is filled with smart wonderful people who respect and value your work. Your pay is good, your commute/office/quality of life/etc are good. It’s a successful organization that has a great mission and a deep reserve of committed sane supporters ready to be cultivated as major donors.”

        I love this. And I now feel like “nope, don’t want to fundraise.” Which is a big, scary realization!

        I’m drawn towards marketing. But I think I want to leave the nonprofit world altogether, which is another layer of “what the eff am I doing with my life!?”

        1. OriginalYup*

          Well, the job world is a wide field. There are big corporate-like nonprofits that are practically conglomerates and there are small social enterprise businesses that are very cause-focused. If you start looking around with lens for marketing-affiliated positions, you might start to see a pattern in the ones that appeal you. It might be less about the sector and more about some other factor — level of interaction or autonomy, a specific sub industry or field, working 9-5 hours at a desk versus not, crossover with creative fields like graphic design, etc.

          1. moose*

            I think this is really true. I’m getting pretty exhausted by the politics of fundraising and working with boards. I’m also fatigued by the 9-5 and am longing for some more flexibility. (We have flex time but it’s a joke and negotiating a different schedule is near impossible)

            I’m thinking about consulting. I really like the strategy around fundraising and get abnormally excited by a good gift table and annual plan. I don’t like working with boards. The dysfunction I’m experiencing in every small shop is grinding.

            And I love marketing and writing. My sid gig of freelance writing (and running my newly launched blog ABOUT freelance writing) gets my juices flowing. I’m hoping I can somehow find a link between marketing/content marketing/fundraising/consulting.

        2. Julia*

          I’m in a similar situation, although I work in a niche field within fundraising. I’m in the process of moving, changing fields, AND changing industries. Hoo boy. (I have seasonal depression, so I truly need to leave my northern city before the winter if I want to be a person all year long.)

          The thing that has helped me the most has been talking to people who actually do the things I want to explore (ie, going on informational interviews or having more informal chats with friends). So far, this has helped me weed out some types of roles and also gather more information about the ones I’m still interested in.

          Another thing that has helped is re-writing my story. What I mean is that I’ve looked at my work history from a few new angles and experimented with emphasizing different parts of my work. One thing that was a big help in this regard was sitting down with a friend who worked in a field I was interested in, describing some of the things I’ve done, and having her tell me how she would write about those things in her industry’s jargon. I didn’t use all of her exact language in my resume, but it was a helpful start. Looking at job descriptions has also helped me work on translating my work into the context of the new field, and so has talking to people in the informational interviews. I’ve experimented with how I describe my job to people when they ask me what I do (even at parties), since my field is kind of obscure and hard to sum up briefly in a way that makes sense to people. I’ve run things by a lot of people to avoid unintelligible fundraising jargon! Rewriting my story has been a long process and I’m still figuring out ways to do it better.

          Another thing that has helped has been going to meetups related to my new industry. I want to work at a startup, so Code for America has been a great start because it’s a great opportunity to actually try some of the things I want to work on in real life. If I were less burnt out by my current job, I’d probably try to volunteer or intern with a startup in my spare time to get experience. People like hearing about this, and also it gives me a chance to network and show commitment to the new industry.

          I think well through writing, so journaling has helped me, too. I’ve gotten a lot out of writing and talking about what I’ve enjoyed about past jobs, what has felt rewarding, what is different about my current job that feels less rewarding, how I like to work, how I’ve felt about different team structures/working environments, what my strengths are, what makes me feel most alive, what makes me feel most focused, etc etc etc. I loved a recent comment or post about the idea of “what you can’t not do” (aka what do you always end up doing, regardless of what your actual role is).

          I still feel overwhelmed by the career change process and stressed out about reaching out to people…BUT I am way more afraid of staying where I am than I am of leaving. I’m not learning anymore and I’m not doing good enough work to meet my own standards, plus I’m a basically a zombie from November to March. I’ve been talking about leaving for way too long and I’m afraid of what it would mean if I were still here next year. Because of all this…I’m planning to break a great big rule and leave my job without another one lined up if I haven’t found anything by the end of the summer so that I can move to my new city to job search. Yikes. (Feel a little better about your own potential career change now??? :) )

    2. Lia*

      I moved from development work to research/stats/analysis work in higher education. I know a number of people who have made the jump to doing that sort of work on the for-profit side, and often with attendant pay bumps.

      It can be a hard read to see if it is the tasks you’re doing, the environment, the organization, or some combo of those that isn’t working for you. Sometimes it’s all of the above, sometimes it is parts of them, or just one.

      1. moose*

        “It can be a hard read to see if it is the tasks you’re doing, the environment, the organization, or some combo of those that isn’t working for you. Sometimes it’s all of the above, sometimes it is parts of them, or just one.”

        This is how I’m feeling. I’m having a hard time trusting myself. I’m a bit in Bitch Eating Crackers mode with my team which doesn’t help. But it’s taken all the excitement out of my work and made me realize that maybe it’s ok to not love fundraising anymore.

      1. moose*

        +1,000,000. But I’ve only been here for 9 months so I’m sort of cautiously laying the groundwork for my next steps.

  50. Jennifer*

    Oh, and while I’m at it, yesterday’s special moments from the meeting:
    (a) we don’t qualify to be allowed to have a “panic button” because “we don’t deal with money.” Uh, yes we do, we just don’t deal with ONLY money.
    (b) after having yet another meeting in which we’re told that everyone’s going to be coming in here shitting bricks about money again next week–well, they already were this week and I had several occasions when we had no managers in the office and had to turn people away saying to come back later. I asked essentially, do you have to schedule the manager’s meeting during public hours, and the answer was, “Well, it’s always been scheduled for then as long as I’ve been here.” Uh, aren’t you high up enough that you could perhaps reschedule it? It’s not carved in stone in Outlook, is it? I love how they tell everyone to ask questions and make a big deal about how there’s always supposed to be a manager on call, and then there isn’t.

    1. Jennifer*

      Oh, and I just found out we will have NO managers again for the entire morning, because “I have to go to a horse recital.” Greaaaaaaaaaat. They’ll throw me on the phones to the wolves, people will be asking financial questions, and we’ll have no managers who can actually answer anything. God, I wish there was some way to get them to hire more people, especially since supposedly budgets aren’t nearly as horrible any more.

        1. fposte*

          I’m guessing it’s kids in a school horse show, but I like the idea that it’s kind of an official field day for all the Mr. Eds.

        2. AVP*

          I envisioned one of those shows with the horses that dance sideways. Do they still have those?

  51. Ihmmy*

    we have a new hire, just temporary while someone is away for medical leave. She’s young but super excited to be here and so far rather awesome. But, sometimes her dress seems a little less professional than the rest of the office. I’m not sure if it’s legit or if I’m just seeing it that way because she’s very pretty and very skinny and very young. Anyway, it’s not against dress code here, but I could see it being a potential issue depending on where she ends up. I’m just a coworker technically but will be helping her learn this job – should I say anything? How do I say something without being all body-shaming or negative about her?

    1. OriginalEmma*

      If she were a new coworker who was not very prety, not very skinny and not very young, would you notice it? Would you mention it? That might be your answer.

    2. Anie*

      I’ve recently been lectured about young employees and their outfits. Apparently, you need to be aware that someone just out of high school or college may understand what the dress code is, but not be able to afford more than one of two key pieces.

      But I feel it’s equally possible that their oblivious!

      1. Colette*

        I don’t see how that matters, though. If they’re not meeting the dress code, figuring out how to buy or borrow appropriate clothes is their responsibility.

        1. Sadsack*

          She is meeting the dress code, just not dressing as professionally as the rest of the office. OP didn’t explain if that means everyone else wears blazers and the coworker wears a cardigan or what. I think it all depends on what exactly is bugging OP.

          1. Ihmmy*

            mostly she’s showing notably more skin than most of us do here. But part of that I suspect is just that she’s so tall and lean, clothing fit may be an issue (I am short and wide and I get that fit can be an issue). Yesterday she had a skirt that was mid thigh on her, but on someone my height would have been knee length.

            I think I’ll let it sit for now and address it if I see more of a trend as time progresses. If I do bring it up it’ll be as just a tip, not a serious talking to or anything. Thank you all for the replies!

            1. What was that?*

              If her boss hasn’t said anything then it’s not a problem. I would classify this as NYB.

    3. some1*

      Either someone is dressed professionally enough or they aren’t – age, size, and level of attractiveness doesn’t matter.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, especially since the coworker is dressed according to the current dress code. I don’t see why anything should be said to her about her clothes, unless she asks for advice.

        1. Sunshine Brite*

          This. There was all kinds of going around at my last job nitpicking whether so and so or so and so met the dress code, people were talked to, etc. It completely devolved. When it was just cut or dry, does it meet or doesn’t it vs pulling in only people that were young and attractive vs larger vs older, etc. Sounds like she meets dress code so I’d set it down for now.

    4. Natalie*

      It’s definitely not out of the question that someone’s looks, attitude, or personality can affect the way we view them, and that can sometimes be counteracted with clothing. We’ve talked about that here before in regards to people who are very petite or look very young. So one way to frame it might be “you’re not doing anything wrong, but here are some strategies to appear even more confident/professional/experienced/etc.”

      That said, I would definitely spend a little time identifying exactly what you’re noticing. I think that will help you in two ways. You will spend a little more time observing the actual behavior and determine if it really is the clothes, or something else. Maybe it’s her personality, as you say she is super excited? Secondly, if and when you do give her this feedback, you can tell her things that are specific and actionable. That’s much less anxiety-inducing than some vague “you could dress more professionally”.

    5. fposte*

      I agree with the idea that you should figure out exactly what difference is that you’re seeing. And if you talk to her, I would frame it as something she might find of interest if she wants to grow in her career rather than a comment about what she should be wearing now, because it doesn’t sound like it is a current problem. It can also be helpful to point her at somebody, maybe not even you, as a model–“you see how Lucinda always has a belt or cardigan over her summer knit dresses?”

      I think this is something most of us go through when we start working, and it’s helpful to have somebody give us some suggestions for the future. Talk in the vein of this being something you’re glad you had some help in or wish you had some help in yourself.

  52. Anonymous Fed*

    Does anyone have good suggestions for when your boss gives you feedback that is demonstrably factually incorrect and then hammers you for being resistant/difficult about feedback? I’ve tried acknowledging the feedback, saying it surprised me, and saying I’ll keep an eye on it going forward, but I’m at a loss.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think it depends on the context of the feedback. Does it REALLY matter? Like, is it part of an adverse action or a bad appraisal? Or is it just something the boss said in passing? If it doesn’t have teeth to it in the form of an adverse action I would ask for specific examples, then just pretty much say “ok, got it.”

      I’ve had bosses who form snap judgements about people and never really move past them. Those are difficult – it’s like when I was a kid and didn’t finish sodas usually, my mom TO THIS DAY insists that I don’t finish sodas. Um, it’s been 25+ years, mom. Move on. But there’s no point arguing with her because it doesn’t matter that much.

      1. Windchime*

        My mom still considers me a blonde because I was from ages 0 – 2. I’m in my early 50’s now.

    2. ACA*

      My husband (also a federal employee) gets this a lot. He usually says, “Oh, has there been a change in policy? Because in the manual/guidelines/policy handbook it says ____.” And then he includes a screenshot for proof.

      But he kind of enjoys being a troublemaker like that, so this may or may not be a solution for you.

      1. What was that?*

        This is me. I usually say, “ok, but according to XYZ, this was incorrect. Was there a change that I’m not aware of?”

        That usually stops it.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Pick your battles! Also, is it possible that even when you’re accepting the feedback, your tone or facial expression is sending a mixed message? If you’re visibly gritting your teeth to hold in an argument about why the feedback is demonstrably factually incorrect, your boss could be reacting to that.

      One strategy for feedback (if you can manage the innocent/genuinely open expression and tone) is to acknowledge the results were not as good as you’d like and ask for advice on how you could have handled it better. This can give you a clue if there was some way you would have been expected to deal with extenuating circumstances/factual changes/whatever led to you getting negative feedback (and sometimes the answer is something super helpful like be psychic). Your boss probably isn’t going to suddenly admit he was wrong if he realizes it based on your question, but hey, sometimes miracles do happen.

    4. misspiggy*

      You could try to work out what the boss is really unhappy about – but feels she can’t say outright, or isn’t thinking clearly enough to articulate. If that doesn’t get you anywhere, try to investigate how she has been misled. How could she have formed the impression something was wrong, even if it wasn’t? These lines of inquiry may lead you to realise that a) your boss is a jerk, b) she is getting incorrect information from somewhere, or c) she has a valid concern. Useful information in any case.

  53. Steve G*

    I read the racist tweets posts when I got home at midnight after the posts died down, so didn’t comment there, but I was slightly taken aback about one commenters’ disdain for coworkers not speaking up when their coworkers heard another coworker say something: “I admit I did not look at those coworkers the same during the rest of my time there.”

    First of all, many of us have bad experiences of going to management and HR with issues and have been either dismissed, treated like they are exaggerating/making stuff up, or told to MYOB. Second, not everyone has an HR or manager to go to. I had two contract jobs for a year, and all I had was an ADP type mailbox for payment/PTO issues. Issues with your coworkers though? Suck it up was the attitude. Third, a lot of people have major things going on in their lives and need to ignore stupid talk going on around them and try very hard to focus just to get through the day. Your coworker may be dealing with income/financial issues, a chronic illness, insomnia, alcoholism, drug abuse, spousal abuse, burnout from taking care of an elderly person.

    Unless your management creates some sort of open door policy where people feel company reporting incidences, you can’t be mad at your coworkers for not doing so, and in the case of the comment I am referring to, that poster’s boss gave people “talking tos” for not speaking up, but apparently didn’t have an open door policy because the poster thought they were going to get fired for speaking up. So it’s pretty crappy of said boss for putting his employees in a sort of damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don’t situation.

    1. some1*

      You’re…pretty defensive about a situation that didn’t involve you. Finding things out about coworkers changes people’s opinions all the time. And fwiw, I thought the poster thought she might be getting fired because she was sent home, and that’s not an unreasonable response.

      1. Laurel Gray*

        Some1, if he is talking about the post I made, you are exactly right.

        Steve G, I respect your opinion and previous experiences but I will agree that you do seem pretty defensive about this. The work environment where I had the racist coworker was a typical corporate culture with hierarchies and multiple departments including in-house general counsel. There was an open door policy. These people definitely had multiple places to go to report this coworker if they really felt that what she was saying was horrible. The same way a coworker can throw you under the bus when errors are made and over time your perception of their competence and professionalism changes, this issue changed mine. I don’t agree that burn out or financial hardship or a sick relative is excuse enough for most to tolerate racist hate speech at work.

        There is privilege in being able to “ignore stupid talk” particularly when that talk is racist and homophobic and isn’t directed at you. As a black person, I do assume that anyone that hates Jewish people enough to say very disgusting things at work (with a CEO whose name ends in -berg!!!) probably could do without my black ass being there too.

        1. Steve G*

          Hi, thanks for a response, I don’t get defensive about these things in real life but yes, there is something about reading them online that does get my blood pressure up, yes. I think its because after reading all of the comments, I’ve seen a couple of the same arguments come up a few times, with little “meeting of the minds” where someone says “I see your point” (racism aside, there were some other discussions about online privacy or mob mentality or freedom of speech). I just don’t think someone should be mad at their coworkers for not reporting speech, because not reporting doesn’t = accepting, it’s just that a lot of people have had bad experiences going to managers/HR about stuff for various reasons.

          1. Laurel Gray*

            Steve, for what it’s worth, that incident happened over a decade ago and those coworkers admit that racist coworker had been spewing her nonsense for years. I had only been there a few weeks at the time of the incident. Knowing that coworkers sat around listening to racist speech (that I don’t believe they agreed with) but chose to say nothing for years was disturbing and did change my opinion of them. Did it stop me from continuing to collaborate and respect these people in the workplace? Absolutely not.

            1. Steve G*

              Oh OK, I pictures it differently now, but BTW, how do you go on about that for years? Perhaps a rhetorical question. I keep picturing these racist-coworker scenarios as one off things, or one-off bad jokes, I don’t know how someone keeps getting material to go on and on about a bias. I had one coworker who had a homophobic moment once but I ignored it and it never happened again. The guy was good-looking and thought every gay guy was hitting on him (in NYC so this could happen quite often) so had to make it known how he doesn’t like gays, isn’t comfortable around them blah blah blah. I rolled my eyes in my head (because he had a thing for making long speeches about random topics when everyone was busy) but later got pissed because I thought he might have been talking indirectly at me, and then was confused, because he was the one who cornered me and talked at me for 1/2 an hour at a time, not the other way around. So the next time he talked at me in length about non-work related items, I made a point of not looking at him lest he feel uncomfortable (sigh, eye roll in head). That was my only real experience with “hate speech.”

              1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

                If you think people can’t go on with constant racist speech for years, you should meet my father in law. It’s remarkable how much of his life he spends being overtly racist. Asking him to stop makes him louder. And he lived in a place where it would not have been hard at all to get away with this at work.

  54. ACA*

    I have a job interview on Monday! It was the most informal interview request I’ve ever gotten (“Thanks for submitting your application materials for this position. When would you like to come talk with me?”), which is explained somewhat by the fact that 1) she’d already told me she’d be in touch to schedule an interview, and 2) she’s is someone I’m in regular contact with anyway because she’s covering the duties of the open position.

    I’d also interviewed with her last year (I made it to the second round, but didn’t get the job), so we’ll see how things go this time around. Interviewing with people you’ve already interviewed with can be…interesting.

  55. FurnitureLady*

    Anyone have experience with “personality tests”? I am one of three finalists for a director-level position and one of the steps is taking a “culture index quiz”. I’ve done that and they now want me to talk to the consultant who provides said test. I’m not really sure how to engage with this person or what they might be looking for.

    If it helps, I know this test as “PI” or Predictive Index, which is supposed to measure assertiveness, people orientation, level of detail and patience and come up with a personality profile. Ugh.

    2. NacSacJack*

      You’ll be surprised at the results if you get to see it. It’s more of a balance of what would you do?

    3. misspiggy*

      In theory the purpose of these discussions is ethical – you have the chance to get useful information about yourself, and to set the record straight if there has been a genuine error in the data or analysis. In practice the consultant is rarely willing to accept correction, and the employer will use the occasion as an opportunity to get further information about whether you seem resistant to feedback and so on.

      I would view this as a presentational interview, where you are trying to project the version of yourself that is most in harmony with what the employer wants. Also it may be a chance to find out what kind of person the employer wants, and decide whether you want to try and fit that profile.

  56. Sandy*

    Someone mentioned the other day that they would immediately harbour doubts about a candidate that emailed from their work email, since in their view this shows that they are not up on professional norma.

    I’ve totally been stewing over this all week. My contract at work states that our employer is required to give us time off during the work day for professional development, explicitly including job interviews in that.

    I’ve worked here ten years now and everybody makes use of that provision, including the higher-ups! But now I’m applying outside our organization, and wondering how many times someone has discounted my application since I used my work email…

    1. Graciosa*

      Well, if that happened, it happened in the past and there’s not much you can do about it. The good news is that you – unlike some of your competitors for any jobs to which you apply – are now aware of this and can take advantage of it. Just get a free email account with a professional sounding name and use it in the future.

      I understand that you are confident that your employer is comfortable with your use of your work email to apply for other jobs, but you can’t expect everyone else to know that. It isn’t the norm.

      So if you’ve been stewing over this all week because you feel you’ve been treated unfairly by other employers who discounted your application because of your use of work email, please stop. It wasn’t actually an unreasonable assumption (even if it was not true in your case) but more importantly, the angst is affecting you more than anyone else.

      1. Sandy*

        It’s more that I really had no idea that this was apparently such a *thing* until this week’s discussion.

        Guess I have outed myself as unfamiliar with professional norms! It can happen to us all…

        1. fposte*

          Unless I’m confusing you with somebody else, it also sounded like you might be in a specialized field with its own way of doing things (it was massively international, as a start), so it may not be as much of a thing there.

          1. misspiggy*

            That’s true – it wouldn’t be a thing at all in my field, also very international.

    2. Pleiades*

      I know, it’s been nagging me too, since I used my old work email address for one of my last job searches.

      HOWEVER, I was searching with the full knowledge and blessing of my boss/workplace – our budget had been deeply cut and we all needed to eventually find new positions. So, something like that could be the case….it was so with me!

  57. Jubilance*

    I have a question about working in consulting. Is it standard in the industry that if you aren’t on a client project (so “on the bench”) that you don’t get paid? I have an interview with a consulting firm and the reviews of the company note this can be an issue for some people. I’m trying to evaluate if this is unique to this company or just how all consulting firms work.

    It feels very much like a staffing firm & not a consulting firm to me, but maybe I’m just out of touch with how consulting works.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Management consulting? Definitely no. Being “on the beach” for long will endanger your job (i.e. if nobody wants to work with you they won’t keep you around) and definitely your bonus, but you should be getting paid your usual salary.

    2. Stephanie*

      That’s odd. I haven’t worked in management consulting, but a few friends have (some at the elite ones like McKinsey, some at more IT-focused ones like Accenture). All said they got paid for being on the bench. They did say it looked really bad to be on the bench for too long as it showed you weren’t being aggressive in finding new projects and/or no one wanted to work with you.

    3. Sarah in DC*

      This is definitely not how it works at the consulting firm that I work for (large corporation with multiple other divisions as well). While you are on the bench you are expected to be doing training, catching up on any admin work you have and working on proposals for new business while searching for a new project. Some people take vacation to protect their billable percentage, but definitely not unpaid leave.

    4. hermit crab*

      Oh wow, I’ve never heard of that. How does that even work, for people who are salaried/exempt? I work at a smallish consulting firm where, barring a huge workload emergency like a government shutdown or something, everyone’s on at least one project at all times, so the whole concept seems foreign to me. Also, I had a roommate once who worked for a big-name consulting firm. I was a little bitter because he was recruited right out of school, and he spent the first three months of his job sitting at his desk reading novels. He moaned a lot about how hard it was to adjust to the working world; I would have been much more sympathetic if he wasn’t getting paid, but as it was he was making 1.5 times as much as I was at the time, and he was still always too busy to clean up after himself around the apartment. :)

    5. Jubilance*

      Thanks all for confirming my thoughts! It was explained to me that this company (which was spun off from Deloitte) essentially pitches you to work at a client, and they try to keep you on projects, but if you aren’t on one then you aren’t paid. To me that sounds like a staffing firm who is placing people in temp positions, not a traditional consulting firm. I may pass on this opportunity because having an unreliable income isn’t something I’m interested in risking.

  58. mar*

    Hi all! Question for the commentariat: So, I just accepted a job offer at another company in a similar field after a wonderful, long run at my current place. I’m planning to give 3.5 weeks notice to my boss on Monday, and I’d love some advice about how to deliver the news. First-hand experience, moral support, and scripts would be highly appreciated!

    Challenge factors:
    -My former colleague just started at this company as well, so I have the sense that my boss will be angry and maybe feel betrayed
    -My boss is a good person but doesn’t always respect professional boundaries. When my colleague left she hassled him about how much they were paying him, constantly jokingly tried to convince him to stay…
    -We’re a small org and I’m the only one with specialized knowledge (fundraising) that’s going to create a gap for awhile. They can definitely find a replacement, but it will take time, and in the meantime there will be lots of deadline-critical work to move forward. I will do everything I can to complete deadlines for the next few months early, leave clear documentation and recommendations, but it will definitely be challenging for the org.
    -The new company invited me to a two-day conference during what would be the second week of my notice period, and realllly want me to go, but it just doesn’t feel right… so I’d love some gut checks on that. Would that be terrible to negotiate with my current employer?

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      It sounds like you’ve taken into consideration what you need to, and you’re not leaving them in any uniquely difficult position–what you’re talking about is standard. I’d be kind but matter-of-fact: “I’ve loved my run here, but I’ve had an opportunity I just can’t pass up, so I’m taking a job elsewhere. I’m making arrangements for transition and will be able to say through July 15 to get things set up as much as possible.” I would be straightforward if asked where, because dancing around it or awkwardly admitting it credits the notion it’s A Thing. You can’t control if your boss is mad or feels betrayed, so just let that happen and be clear of where you are: “I know transitions are always tough, and I’ll do my best to make sure things are prepared for somebody new to step in.” (Note the subtle reminder that this is standard business practice there.)

      I’m with you on thinking you really can’t take two days out to do something for the new workplace; at a lot of workplaces, you wouldn’t be allowed time off during the notice period at all, and I’d observe the spirit of that even if the letter isn’t required.

    2. Development professional*

      Regarding your third point, would you be open to referring any contacts in your network to your boss who could be your replacement? Would you be willing to (as one of your wrap up projects in your remaining weeks) seek out potential candidates on LinkedIn or elsewhere who have the right skills and experience to replace you, who could become a list of people your boss could send the position announcement to? I did this once when leaving a job, and it went a long way toward building goodwill with my boss and the colleague who would be taking on my work in the interim until a replacement was hired. I don’t think they ended up seriously considering any of the people who I surfaced that way, but it was the thought that counted.

    3. misspiggy*

      On the conference thing, I’d say you can’t leave your current employer in the lurch and attend, but that if there are any after-hours sessions or social events for the conference, you’d love to attend those.

  59. Katie the Fed*

    I had to have a REALLY uncomfortable talk the other day with one of my teammates – her lack of initiative and difficulty in solving problems was driving all of her teammates (and leadership) crazy. And she’s very sensitive and seeks everyone’s approval. I had to hit the right tone between “this is a big deal and you need to work on this” and being so direct that she shut down completely.

    The good news is that it ultimately went well (after some tears) and I told her I’m confident in her skills but she needs to do these things. And she’s actually started to show some improvement, which is huge. So, fingers crossed it keeps working.

    2. Nanc*

      Congratulations! Neither party ever enjoys these tough conversations but it sounds like she listened to your concerns and wants to make it work–best possible outcome!

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      Tell her you’re seeing those signs of improvement. It’s always nice to hear when you’re doing things right, or at least moving in that direction.

    5. Nervous Accountant*

      That’s great!!!! This sounds very very similar to what I experienced a few months ago at work and in fact you had posted a response to it as well. I’m glad it worked out for you.

  60. Anonasaurus Rex*

    So that job I posted about a couple weeks back, where a coworker was leaving and I was getting move into her position with a big bump in pay and stuff. Well she changed her mind. She had accepted the offer, she had even gone there, out of state, with her husband and started the process of buying a house that was still under construction and rent a townhouse to live in temporarily. Then earlier this week, with 2 weeks left to go until she was done, she just changes her mind. She un-accepts the offer, un-buys the house, and un-resigns.

    No new job for me. :(

    4. Carrie in Scotland*

      You can un-all of that? Really??

      I’m sorry anonasaurus rex, that sucks terribly. Shame on your company!

  61. Mallory Janis Ian*

    This is the first Friday in a long while I’ve had time to do more than just skim the open thread. I’m back at a university job and at the slowest part of the summer.

    I don’t have a question, just an update. Some of you may remember that after working as a department head’s assistant at the university for 8 years, I left to go to work for my department head at his private design firm as his office manager. It did not go well. I’ve always had a good working relationship with him, but it never did work between me and his wife, the other principal in the firm.

    I could tell within one week that, if I were going to last at the firm, I’d have to really work on communicating with her. I’ve never met anyone before that I couldn’t learn their communication style and adapt accordingly to work smoothly with them. She always communicated in emotional tirades and insults, though. She never acted like a professional, but more like a spoiled child. Then the guys at the firm told me that she had never wanted to hire me in the first place, and that my boss had convinced her, against her will, to do so because he just wanted to keep having an assistant. (It wasn’t me, personally, that she didn’t want to hire. She didn’t want to hire an admin at all; she had the next salary line earmarked for another designer. She is the financial/administrative principal, and he is the design principal, and she felt like he overruled her in what was supposed to be her area of control.) So I was off to a bad start with her before ever even going over there.

    Then, she was always jealous of anyone who had interaction with or got positive attention from her husband. Not just women — it wasn’t a man/woman thing that she was wary of. She would get jealous of the male employees, too, if they put forth an idea that her husband thought was a good one. It’s like she was threatened or felt like she was “less-than” if anyone else looked good in her husband’s eyes. Like he was supposed to have professional admiration for her alone. So she would always lash out at anyone who got any kind of positive professional attention from him.

    I only stayed there for 8 months. I finally realized that there was nothing I could do differently that would change the fact that she interacts with people in a toxic way. Most of the other guys in the office had been on the verge of quitting at one point or another because of the way she treats people, but they are designers working at a firm that wins a lot of design awards, so they stay for their careers. I realized that, hey, I’m not a designer — I don’t have to put up with this sh*t; I can be an assistant anywhere!

    So I applied back at the university, to a position that is a promotion from the one I left. It is still assisting a department head, but with a title bump and pay increase (because the business school is richer than the design school and has more salary lines for higher-level admin positions).

    I had a heart-wrenching, 45-minute exit meeting with my boss, who didn’t want me to leave, tried to convince me to stay, and asked me all kinds of questions about what went wrong. He knew I’d had tension with his wife, but he thought that he had successfully smoothed things out between us. In one of my last conversations with her, I could tell that he had talked to her, and that she was being temporarily conciliatory with me but that she resented the hell out of it. I knew it wouldn’t last.

    I meant to make it to at least the one-year mark, but I just couldn’t handle feeling like I was her target for any longer. The university typically tries to fill permanent positions for the upcoming fall semester in the late spring, so I jumped on the opportunity to get one of those jobs before it was too late.

    2. Nanc*

      It’s one of those cases where you’re choosing between you being happy or your boss being happy. You spent a lot of time and energy trying to make it work. You deserve to be the happy one.

    3. fposte*

      Joining others here–you’re absolutely making the right decision. You gave it the old college try, as my father would have said, and if you can find another position before you hit the year mark there’s nothing special about 12 months that would require you to stay. I’m glad you were able to get a pay bump going back to the university, too–allows you to be more philosophical about the whole thing.

      Former boss is really going to struggle with his wife sabotaging the assistants.

    4. Mallory Janis Ian*

      Thanks, y’all. I did think it probably reflected badly on me to have stayed such a short time, but I am happy now. And it does feel good to go back to the university with a promotion instead of slinking back laterally.

      I am curious to see whether the dynamic is any different for the new assistant. I could tell before I left that my boss had had a talk with his wife about me, and she was being grudgingly (and temporarily) nicer. I wonder whether she’ll be more civil with the new assistant, or if not, whether the new assistant will have a thicker skin that I did. Or maybe she’ll just be able to click with her and not be bothered at all.

      Here’s a thing that his wife did to me that was weird, though: I always opened all my boss’s mail at the university office; he never touched it himself unless I put it in front of him and called his attention to it. So at the private office, I accidentally opened his birthday card from his mother. I was used to seeing him get handwritten professional correspondence that looked similar (congratulations for appearing in a magazine, winning an award, etc. from colleagues in his professional network), so I didn’t think anything of it until I saw what it was. I wouldn’t have opened it if I’d realized it was personal personal vs. work personal. So I showed it to his wife and told her I’d mistakenly opened it, we sealed it back and put it on his desk, and she seemed fine.

      Well, about midnight that night, I got a long (six-paragraph) email from her, of the type referred to on trashy daytime TV as a “ho letter”. It was all about how she and hubby shared everything together, and I was nothing, and how dare I open his private mail from his mother, etc., etc. My last week at the job, I tried to retrieve that email to save for when I wanted to be incredulous again, but then I remembered that when I received it, I was so MAD that I (1) deleted it and (2) went into the deleted items folder and deleted it again.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah. Wife has issues. I wonder if a male assistant would receive the same treatment?

        1. Mallory Janis Ian*

          My replacement at his university office is a young man, and my boss has been on the verge of firing him. I think the new assistant needs a more regimented boss. I was already an experienced assistant when I started working for him, and he is not a boss for a beginner; he’s too high-maintenance and needs to be managed up, whereas the new assistant still needs managing himself.

          I don’t know if a male assistant would be better or not. It would remove the gender element from the equation, which I think is part of it, but not all of it. She gets jealous of the males in the office, too, if she thinks they’re coming between her and her husband in some way.

          tl;dr: Yeah, she has issues.

  62. Sunflower*

    What are your thoughts on getting a certification if you aren’t even sure you want to stay in your field? In 2 months I will be eligible to take my CMP (Certified Meeting Professional) Exam(you need x years of experience/degree to take the test) However, I’m really not sure I want to stay in this field. If a job comes up that I am really interested in- great. But I’d like to ideally make a move into project management- if not now, then soon. Likelihood of my company paying for the certification isn’t very high. I know a lot of people want to get into event planning so I’m thinking might distinguish me out from any old person who hangs a sign on their door saying ‘Beatrice Jones- Event Planner’. Also, I’ve been feeling kind of low lately and hoping to make a move to a new city and I’m wondering if this test could be an encouragement for me? Any other event planners on here would be esp helpful!

    1. HigherEd Admin*

      Event planner here!

      I’ve also been toying with the idea of taking my CMP, since I’m trying to switch fields and I think it might give me a professional edge. However — it’s expensive! I am not sure that the money is worth the fact that I’m not 100% sure it would actually give me an edge.

      The Exam itself cracks me up — all it does is say “yep, you’ve worked in event planning for X years, congrats!” Someone could just as easily see that from my resume and cover letter.

      I will be interested to hear what others think!

  63. Lily in NYC*

    I had my performance evaluation this morning but it was sprung on me and I didn’t have time to prepare. However, I quickly went to the “Alison archives in my brain” and used what I’ve learned here to ask for a bigger raise than the piddly 1% I get every year because I’m near the top of my salary range. It worked and I’m getting a very decent increase. Thank you, Alison!

    1. Lily in NYC*

      I forgot to mention that I have never asked for a raise, ever, so this was a big deal for me.

    2. Mallory Janis Ian*

      Huzzah!! for your raise.

      Being able to mentally access the “Alison archives” in a pinch is one of the great benefits of being a regular reader of this blog.

    4. fposte*

      And that’s a double score because it counts as a personal growth/doing something new moment, too. Congratulations.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Thanks fposte – you are so right. I am happier about asking for the raise than I am about getting it (well I’m happy about both).

  64. Saltine*

    I have a coworker who seems intent on causing drama and a manager who prefers to keep out of things (we have a fairly flat hierarchy at a very small family company, >10 employees). There are a lot of complicating factors here which I will try to include, and I need advice on whether I am justified in being full on bitch eating crackers mode or whether I just need perspective.

    This coworker is insincerely amplifying concerns about a third person to the manager. The third person he does not like. I know he is insincere because I overheard him talking to another worker about “the act” he “put on” for the manager. While the issues are real, there’s no need for dramatics, and he picks out every error and takes it to the manager. Unfortunately management is not circumspect and often lets nuggets of irritation or criticism drop which the coworker picks up on and construes as approval to continue picking away at the offender.

    We also have an open office (ugh, I know) and he is often talking or whispering. He also has tics where he continually makes noises with his mouth, or the same jokes or comments every day. This is interspersed with periods of sullenness. I can also overhear him talking about others as mentioned above. I’ve said to him that I can hear him talking, but nothing has changed – in fact, I feel like he is now targeting me as well, as the whispering has increased, and he watches what I am doing on my computer screen. I’m efficient at my job, but also spend time on non-work websites as a brain break. I’m unwilling to change my habits due to what I see as a whisper campaign. There is no issue with my productivity or output, and no opportunity for me to advance (I’m casually looking for other jobs). I’ve been here for almost a decade and have a “work to live” attitude, although this is eroding in the face of this tiresomeness.

    Alison’s advice is always “Be direct!” (with a few exclusions) but as I’ve been passive in the past, and this office has a passive atmosphere (no evaluations, no direct criticism aside from passive aggressive remarks, feedback is not welcomed, defensive management) I am wondering how to be direct and effectively shutting down this drama manufacturing plant without increasing the bad behaviour. I have no official authority over this person and it’s unlikely I can enlist management in corrective techniques. Frankly I think he should be let go as it’s corrosive to the atmosphere, but as I said before, I’m in cracker-eating mode so take that with a grain of salt(ine).

    Complicating factors: I know he has a diagnosed mental condition (he got hired on here as an intern with a return-to-work placement program). I am not sure how much of this is him and how much is the disease, and I don’t think he has a lot of supports. Accommodation is a difficult thing and management here is not the proactive type to sit down and discuss strategies with him.

    So: how much of this can I do something about, and should I? Or is it as I suspect, my workplace sucks, and I need to leave?

    1. Saltine*

      To clarify: this is a blue-collar environment, in manufacturing. I work in the front office, they work in the back.

      1. Saltine*

        a second clarification: I err on the side of paranoid occasionally (I think people are whispering and laughing about me, for example) so his comments that I overhear about what I am doing could be a coincidence.

        Yeah, the more I write here, the more I see my answer is “your workplace sucks, I’m sorry, get a new job”. My partner also works here, which is a complicating factor, and due to the tiny nature of the company I have zero references without notifying the manager. Other people have tried to leave in the past and when the manager found out, they were treated with pity. I don’t want to be treated this way and would rather be able to make a clean break rather than “Oh Saltine applied elsewhere but I guess it didn’t work out”.

        My partner says it’s just work and that there’s no guarantee another job will be free of potential irritants.

    2. Sunshine Brite*

      You could say something, but it sounds like mental health problems to me and the manager needs to manage. Because your manager isn’t managing, your workplace sucks

    3. fposte*

      I think there’s also the middle ground of “How do I train myself to be less bothered by this?”, which I think is the main goal here.

      He sounds annoying, to be sure. But I think most of the drama manufacture is a different thing from the making noise at his desk thing. If he’s openly saying something to you or a group including you, say “I don’t think it’s that big a deal,” and change the subject, or just walk away. If he’s yapping at his desk, try to tune him out, whether by headphones or mental redirection. If he wants to watch your computer screen, let him watch–your approach is the “Who gives a damn?” shrug. Overall, do not accept the drama when it pushed at you. Let it plummet to the floor. You don’t care. (You haven’t mentioned whether any of your colleagues care or not, either–is it possible they just let him yammer and aren’t particularly worked up about any of this?)

      If the amount he talks while working is atypical–if it’s a problematic distraction for you and it would be regardless of what he talked about or whether it was somebody else–then I think you can directly ask for him to step outside if he’s having personal conversations, because it affects your productivity. Unless you’ve been enlisted to be alert to a particular need for accommodation that would prohibit that, that’s a perfectly reasonable request to a colleague regardless of any health issues he may have. And if he can’t or won’t comply with that request and he’s still making too much noise for you to work well, then you go to a manager about it.

      But I think some of this is that he’s hard to look away from, because he’s acting out of the office ordinary and your attention is drawn to him. So you training yourself to push his buzz to the background is likely to be key here, because it sounds like he may always be out of the office ordinary. In a small office, that might well be too distracting for you to work with, but that’s for you to say, and in the meantime it’s worth finding a better way to insulate yourself.

      1. Saltine*

        Thank you fposte. I plan on implementing your suggestions at the earliest opportunity – right now.

    4. NacSacJack*

      Can we stop using the b word in this space? If you want to be treated with equality and respect, stop using hateful language against yourself. Frankly I was taught never to use that word ever and never, with death threats attached, ever use it against someone of the female gender. Besides, I just dont get it. What does eating crackers have to do with your mood?

      1. Lily in NYC*

        “Bitch eating crackers” is a term that is hard to explain but I’ll try: it denotes when you hate someone so much that every little thing they do drives you nuts, even the innocuous things like eating crackers. It’s like you say to yourself about the person you hate: “would you look at that bitch eating crackers, hmph”. When all the person is doing is eating crackers but you just can’t stand them so even that is unbearable. It’s not really calling the person a bitch, it’s showing how you can’t control your emotions about this person and inflate everything to a ridiculous level.

      2. Saltine*

        I don’t disagree with you here, NatSacJack, but I’m using it here as shorthand amongst AAM commenters who are familiar with the complex emotional state it describes. I know you mean well, and as someone seeking advice, your reply seems a little harsh. I know what it means and consciously chose to use it, please respect my decision here to do so. The crowd here provides thoughtful, useful feedback – if you feel that this phrase should be phased out, perhaps we should start a new comment thread?

        1. Saltine*

          Also, I should apologize for not putting it in quotes, that would have made the phrase clearer as not of my own origin but a colloquial phrase.

  65. L*

    Two former boss questions.

    1. What do you do if you think you may have offended a friend/former boss. I have no clue what/how, but my former boss has been uncharacteristicly quiet and withdrawn. I’ve reached out here and there and am met with silence. Do I ask if I’ve done something?

    2. Thanks to AAM I realized that I didn’t handle my relationship with a former boss (during my employment) as well as I should have. She was difficult to work for, but I was probably a difficult employee to manage. She has some pull in my field, but I don’t use her as a reference. Should I reach out to her and try to apologize or acknowledge that I was a bit of a pain? Do I just leave it be. If I were to reach out, what the heck do I say??

    1. Nanc*

      Hmmm, are you trying to reconnect because you need her as a reference? If yes, when you reach out with the request I would list the things she helped you learn on the last job and try to subtly say that you realize you weren’t the easiest employee to manage. Something along the lines of “the biggest skill I learn from you was X and I appreciate how hard you worked to help me learn it, even though I was initially resistant to learning such a difficult skill.”

    2. fposte*

      In general, I think people shouldn’t ask if they’ve done something except maybe to spouses; it reads more as a request for reassurance than an attempt to repair. Did she give you any indication she was offended, and do you know what it was about? When you say “quiet and withdrawn,” do you mean in person or do you mean she’s not answering texts/emails/phone calls? Is there a reason you think it’s just you she’s not talking to?

      Most of the time this is just somebody who isn’t that interested in being social, or social with the person they’re not communicating with, and that’s something that you just have to respect and let go.

      1. L*

        It’s completely awkward! She’s just not answering which is the exact opposite of normal. I’m not sure, though the consulting ended sort of funky, so maybe I’m projecting.

  66. GOG11*

    I’m not sure if this falls into the work thread or the weekend thread, so feel free to delete, Alison, if this is in the wrong place.

    A few months ago, I took my boyfriend shopping to pick up some work clothes that were of a higher quality and better fit than what he had. Seeing how much of a difference that made for him, coupled with my recent discovery of the Konmari method, makes me want to spruce up my work wardrobe a bit, too.

    I’ve been looking at blogs like corporette and capitol hill. From what I’ve gleaned from those and from looking at higher ups where I work, I think I have a decent idea of what types of pieces are appropriate for my workplace. The hit-or-miss shopping I’ve done so far, and with a little help from my mom, I’ve figured out which cuts and types of clothes work for my body type.

    I’m delighted to have gotten a handle on those aspects, but when it comes to color, I’m really lost. Initially, I bought a bunch of neutral pieces, but then I realized that nothing but neutrals, at least the way I’m putting them together, looks blah and awkward. So then I gotten some brighter pieces (think turquoise, bright yellow, what google images tells me is “azure”), but they look weird to me unless I wear them with black or grey. Aside from that, I’d like to incorporate some more of the colors that look good on me, like jewel-toned stuff.

    TL;DR and my question: how do you find clothes that match? I do a good job finding individual pieces that are work appropriate and that fit my body type, but I can’t figure out what goes with what, mostly in terms of color. How do you know, in the store, whether or not something will match what you’ve got at home?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Maybe try looking at dresses that you like, and see what colors are combined on those? Then you can replicate those with the clothes that you want to wear.

      1. GOG11*

        This is a really good idea. I have one shirt that has lots of colors on it, but they are all from the same family (I don’t know what it’s called) and it looks nice. I don’t know why this hadn’t occurred to me. Thank you :)

    2. Kerry (Like the County in Ireland)*

      It’s really what looks good with your coloring, not what looks good together. You should be planning for overall harmony between your clothes and coloring. What are you using as your neutrals? You should really build a wardrobe around 2-4 base colors that everything looks good with. I buy a lot of green, dark gray, and black stuff and will pair it with various blues, coral, cream and pinks. Generally if you look and feel good in a color, you’ll look and feel good in other colors that coordinate with it.

      In Style has a column where they take the hot color of the month and pair it in some interesting ways with other colors. Go to the library and take a look at some back issues.

      1. Catherine in Canada*

        “It’s really what looks good with your coloring, not what looks good together….What are you using as your neutrals? You should really build a wardrobe around 2-4 base colors that everything looks good with. ”

        This.
        I have gradually built up a wardrobe of basic pieces in black, white, grey as neutrals and accessory/completer pieces in cranberry red, saffron yellow, persimmon orange and occasionally a teal-y green as brights/colours.

        I barely need to think when getting dressed in the morning. Which is a good thing because thinking isn’t happening much at O-dark hundred.

        1. GOG11*

          This is where I want to be.

          If I have pieces that I like, but that don’t go, do I get rid of those? Or can I try to bring them into the fold with pieces that bridge the gap? Do you rule things out based on color, even if you the all the rest about it?

          I have been thinking of dividing my non-neutral stuff into spring and summer (my brightly-colored stuff) and fall and winter (my olives, a “fire brick” ish red blouse, a dark grey dress with small accents of dusty rose and beige) and thinking of them as entirely separate entities. It’s really hard to find summer-weight stuff that’s in an autumn palette.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Do you happen to be plus size? If so, check out Gwynnie Bee – it works like Netflix for clothing, so you can try out lots and lots of different styles/colors/etc.

            1. GOG11*

              I’m a size 4 or 6 in most stuff. I’ve seen their ads on facebook so many times and would love to try it, but I think they start at 10.

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                Yeah, it does – and frankly the selection isn’t great below a size 16 or 14. But maybe you could try Le Tote, Stitch Fix, or Rent the Runway Unlimited instead? Not exactly the same model but might be fun anyway?

          2. Kerry (Like the County in Ireland)*

            1) Yes, you can keep stuff you like if you can come up with bridge pieces that also match other parts of the wardrobe. But if you can’t, you’ll have to let it go and if you give it to someone in a clothing swap or think how thrilled they’ll be at Goodwill, it will soften the regret.

            2)And yes, I have to rule things out based on color. I have pale skin, green eyes, and graying hair. There is no way I can make something bright yellow look good on me. The clothes are there to serve you, not the other way around.

        2. Student*

          How do you decide what looks good with “your coloring”? I have no idea how that works.

          1. Hannahhhhhh*

            Spend some time in a store that has decent lighting (or even better, natural light – look for windows), and good mirrors. Try on a wide range of colours, and notice how they make your skin, eyes and hair look. Ignore the shape/cut/fit etc of the items for this, just look how you look in that colour. You should start to find some colours that generally work well for you, some that definitely don’t, and some that are OK.

            Colours that work well on me make my blue eyes “pop”, my skin glow and look clear, and my hair looks bright and rich (it’s dyed deep purple with violet hightlights at present). Those that don’t suit me tend to make my eyes look dull, my skin look yellowish or greyish (hello tomato red, you make me look like a corpse!) and my hair look weird. I look really good in grey, purple, deep green, brown and teal. I look terrible in red-toned pink, orange-reds, yellows, tan and beige. Black, navy, white etc. are fine on me, but usually need perking up with colours that suit me better. I therefore stick to using no more than one piece in those colours, or using them in patterns with colours that are good on me.

            My best friend is terrible at this stuff. We went shopping last Sunday and she handed me this tomato red top that she thought would suit me – urk! I have tried to explain how I know that colour won’t work on me without trying on every item in it that I see, but she can’t seem to get it. 90% of her wardrobe is black, because she is scared of choosing colours.

          2. GOG11*

            I found what looks to be a pretty good start at figuring out what colors might look good on you at a blog called inside out style. I went through some of the articles/activities and agreed with what they suggested for colors for my features. Link to follow.

    3. L*

      Franish is another blogger who actually just did a series on how to build a cohesive wardrobe. I found it really helpful.

        1. Windchime*

          Also take a look at The Vivienne Files. The clothes that she features range from expensive to LL Bean and she has wonderful examples of what colors look good together and how to put together a wardrobe.

    4. Sadsack*

      I think I heard this on what not to wear years ago: It’s not that your outfit “matches,” it’s that it “goes.” Get it? Like putting different pastels together or different brights together. Also, like Victoria Nonprofit USA wrote, look at other single pieces that are multicolored. If I can wear a scarf that has a bunch of colors in it, why couldn’t I wear an outfit that combines those same colors? You absolutely can wear turquoise with yellow and tan, that’s tropical and the colors will really pop! You’ll look put together without being all matchy-matchy.

      1. GOG11*

        So more than one piece that’s a bright color (that isn’t the same bright color…) won’t overwhelm the outfit?

        When I see what others put together, sometimes I’m like, yeah, ok, I see that, but I don’t think I’d have gotten there myself. Other times, I have no idea how it matches, but apparently it’s considered an outfit.

        Me trying to match clothes is either (a) completely matching things (the blue in this shirt matches the blue in the sweater, bam, matches…matchy matchy…), (b) everything is black or grey and my shirt or sweater is a color, or (c) a complete and total guess. I think I lack color intuition or something.

        I’m not at all questioning your assessment of turquoise, yellow and tan, but where did you learn that they go together? How do you know that?

        1. afiendishthingy*

          Interesting question. For me it’s not a matter of having “learned” that colors go together, if it looks good then they go, if they look terrible then they don’t. And a lot of it is subjective. I like the suggestion of finding a multicolored piece that you like and then trying that color combination with other pieces. It seems to me like you’re overthinking it, but I guess it’s one of those things that comes easier for some people than others. I’m terrible at things like arranging furniture in an aesthetically pleasing way or most things involving good use of space, but it’s nice to think I have good color intuition!

        2. Sadsack*

          I agree with afiendishthingy about it coming easier to some than others. It does not come easy to me! It is easier now than it used to be, but I used to be just like you with the matching and wearing black or grey as my only neutral. I had a hard time accepting that navy is a neutral! Well guess what, so is tan. Part of my coming around on being a bit more daring with my outfit combinations really is due to having noticed some of the scarves I have. (When I say daring, beleieve me, I am not at all daring. I mean daring for me). I have some really pretty scarves, and they combine colors that I never would think to put together myself, but they work. So, why not wear separates in those color families together? Maybe start where you are comfortable. Wear a black and white dress or black pants/white top with a colored sweater instead of a black or white sweater. Wear a red belt with your navy pants and white shirt instead of a black or brown belt. These are examples of things that I used to fret over.

        3. fposte*

          And some of this learning is cultural–for a while black and brown couldn’t go together, and blue and green couldn’t go together (which always struck me as stupid, because hello, that’s the earth and sky), and then people said “Sure they do” and you started seeing those blends around. So getting your eye used to combinations by looking at fashion blogs and dresses (great suggestion!) can help a lot–your brain starts accepting coral and burgundy, say, as a regular thing it sees around together. You also don’t have to learn the whole concept of what every color looks good with–just learn some good possibilities for the colors you tend to like. (Blue and purple and black and gray could probably get me through an entire year.)

          Shoes can be a great way to slam some color in, too. I had some fun red heels that I’d wear with fairly neutral outfits.

          1. Snork Maiden*

            What fposte said – looking at lots of visual suggestions is a great idea. Then ask yourself what you like and don’t like – and why.

            (this process also works as an introduction to analyzing art, wine, literature, music…being able to explain *why* you like or don’t like something is a terrific skill. Everybody likes different things so being able to export your perspective is engaging and fun and can also tell you a lot about yourself!)

            1. Kerry (Like the County in Ireland)*

              And not just clothes, but paintings, home interior magazines, buildings, even just paint chip samples. Turquoise-yellow-tan say “hello, Miami!” to me.

    5. Kyrielle*

      Match your colors. Look up “Color Your Style” (which is a book, and which will claim that certain colors promote energy, etc. – I don’t buy that part but it gives a GREAT way to pick colors that match your skin, hair, and eyes).

      And when fall/winter colors come around, I’m hoping to reduce my pants to exactly two colors (a darkish brown, and a charcoal grey, in my case) so that I can vary the shirts and not worry about it. Right now, all the pants I can buy in the line that fits me best make me look like I ought to be sitting in a basket of easter eggs, which, uh, no.

    6. cuppa*

      This might be a “duh” note, but be sure you are wearing the clothes you want to coordinate when you shop for things. That way, you can see the colors together and make sure they go.

      1. GOG11*

        Brilliant! It’s actually not a duh moment for me. I usually pick something up and try to imagine what I have back home.

        I try to make sure what I buy goes with at least a few outfits and pieces I already have. If you can’t wear them all, do you bring them with you?

        1. Sadsack*

          I bet if you pick something that matches what you have on, you’ll get home and realize that it matches other stuff you forgot you have. It sounds like you already have a pretty good neutral base. Get something because you really like it, not because you have a minimum number of outfits that it will go with. Soon enough you’ll have a bunch of things that you like and you will start seeing how some different pieces can go well together.

        2. Kerry (Like the County in Ireland)*

          Oh yeah, bring it with you. When I worked retail we had people do it all the time. Or at least have pictures on your phone of the stuff you want to match.

    8. Ad Astra*

      Have you tried making a “work clothes” board on Pinterest? That’s where I get my ideas about how to wear a certain item or what colors go with what. Add the word “capsule” to your search and you can see how people created a bunch of different outfits with the same pieces.

  67. Growing Pains*

    Can I just vent?
    I work in medical device complaints. Any device issue is reported to me by the sales rep, then I determine whether further investigation is needed and whether the issue needs to be reported to the FDA. The sales reps at my company make my job a living hell. I spend LOTS of time making my follow up questions as specific as possible to reduce the amount of back and forth between the sales rep and me. They respond back, “Don’t know why you’re asking me this. No device issue.” They don’t even ASK me to elaborate or have the courtesy to respond in complete sentences. (I’m at the ‘bitch eating crackers’ point with them. My coworkers all feel the same way.) It isn’t until I begin throwing in words like “FDA” or “serious adverse event” that they begrudgingly comply with me. A few reps are incredibly helpful and a delight to work with. The remaining hundreds however….

    1. Anie*

      Not the same thing at all, but I have a vent and we work in the same industry.

      The company I work for publishes news about the FDA or drug companies or whatever. This morning, someone tweeted about my company and included a link that, when I clicked on it, was actually a full posting of our copywritten content.

      So I went to the sales rep who covers that territory to see if they’d bought the rights to do so. After ten minutes of trying to explain what I was asking (and getting “You want to give them rights?” or “Gosh, I thought you were talking about breaking our copyright for a second!”), she finally seemed to get it. “Oh, that IS in my territory! I’ll get right on it.”

      On my own, without being asked to do so, I emailed her the link to the stolen content on their website.

      And hour later, she comes up to me, arms waving and shocked voice: “OMG, I just looked that link you sent. They’ve ALREADY posted our content! That’s so different from wanting to buy it! I wish you’d told me.”

      …seriously?

    2. Anonsie*

      Oh lord. As someone who sometimes has to actually deal with med device/biotech sales people as a customer, I have deep sympathy for anyone who has to deal with those people on a regular basis.

      No personal offense to anyone who has that job here, just… Good god they are difficult.

      1. Growing Pains*

        I’m actually pretty surprised that you as a customer would also have a difficult times with sales reps. I feel.. comforted..? :P You have my sympathy. If you don’t mind elaborating, what makes the sales reps difficult?

        1. Anonsie*

          Right? You’d think they would be super accommodating to the people they need to buy stuff from them. Nope. They know we can’t go anywhere else for whatever they’re selling 99% of the time.

          They tend to be time vampires. You might email them asking for the turnaround on a product order and they’ll reply right away but dance around it and want to schedule a phone call and say maybe I’ll just drop by your office and just never answer your freaking question. You’ll go back and forth like eight times before they tell you what you asked for originally, all the while trying to get you to spend more time talking to them through some other mean instead of just ending the conversation by answering. That’s the biggest pet peeve, there are others though.

      2. Jem*

        While we’re bitching about medical device sales reps – I work for doctors and have to field communications from them. It’s such a weird position to be in because they are trying to sell you crap but we also need them for grant money. I think it’s really creepy how they try to get really personal with you right away and start asking how your family’s doing, etc. Apparently the smarminess works on some people but I find it invasive and insincere. I’d rather they just be businesslike and cordial. We all know what they’re here for. Also, why don’t any of them want to communicate by email? I hate talking on the phone and it’s even worse when they drop by unannounced for some non-reason when I am super busy.

        I apologize to any medical sales reps on here – I am an easily annoyed person.

        1. Anonsie*

          Yes! All of this! Just take my money and go away, for god’s sake.

          We have a great policy where I work that unannounced visits from vendors or their reps are strictly prohibited, so they couldn’t even make it to our office to pull something like that. And if they somehow did, the policy is actually posted right next to my desk (I have no idea why, I think because it’s right inside the front door to this department) and it would be easy to bounce them.

  68. AdminAnon*

    I have been thinking about joining the Peace Corps for a few years now and have finally made up my mind to actually apply, but I’m still trying to figure out how it would fit into my long-term plans. For reference, I’m still early in my career–one AmeriCorps VISTA term + two years of employment at the same non-profit. Are any of you lovely people RPCVs or do you know anyone who is? How has it impacted your career paths? Do you have any other advice? I’ve read everything I can find about the actual experience, but I haven’t found much about life post-service. Thanks in advance!

    1. MsM*

      Not a vet, but I’ve known lots of people who did it, and I can’t think of anyone whose career was affected for the worse by it. A lot of them came back really enthused to work in international development or public health, and either used the Peace Corps network to find jobs in that field or went back to school to get the qualifications they’d need. Even the one person who had a lousy experience and left partway through found a short term gig, went to law school, and is happy now.

    2. Sunshine Brite*

      I know people who have, my undergrad actually has a decently high rate of participation. Post-service, I know one person working for the State Department, one still completing their service, others working in various non-profit roles/for-profit with a cause/government.

    3. the gold digger*

      Took me 18 months to find a job after Peace Corps and that was with a BA and an MBA from top schools and super solid work experience and accomplishments. Probably easier to move into government/NGO work than to private sector. I was aiming for Fortune 500 and Peace Corps is not necessarily regarded as real work there.

      1. Hooligan*

        RPCV here! Came back in 2005. It was a great, but tough, experience. I would absolutely do it over again. People’s career paths differ. Here’s mine:

        Graduated College in May
        Flew out in June
        Did my full two years service, applied to grad school from PC
        Went to grad school right out of PC, got my MPA
        Got a job right out of grad school
        Worked in non-profits/government for a few year, then switched sectors and I’m not at a tech startup

        I didn’t have any trouble finding employment, but I think the grad school thing helped. It was part of my long term plan to go, and ended up working really well.

        I think for a lot of people in my PC group, careers worked out pretty much the same they would have without PC. There was a couple of really go-getting pre-meds in my group. They were health volunteers in rural clinics, came in with their MCATs done, and took their vacation time to go back to the US and interview at med schools. They went straight to med school out of PC. At the other extreme, there were others who were comfortable waiting tables while going through the application process, and were ok doing the same after they got back . Then there were a couple of people who really changed career paths as a result of PC. One woman I knew was a lib art major posted in the desert – she became really passionate about water issues, went back to school, and is now a water/sanitation engineer.

        I’m still really passionate about PC, and I’d be happy to chat offline, but I’d rather not post my contact info in a public forum. I’ve subscribed to follow up comments to this thread, so feel free to ask more questions.

        1. the gold digger*

          I loved my time in the PC and should clarify – I joined after I had my MBA, which I got after working for five years at an F100 company. I think your path makes it a lot easier – recruiters see that you are coming out of school, not that you are coming from the Peace Corps. So yes, if your path includes joining the PC and then going to grad school, I think that is a great option.

          My friends who had the easiest time – we were all in the Peace Corps after getting our graduate degrees – were the MPAs or MA in Int’l something who went to work in DC.

        2. AdminAnon*

          Thank you both so much! I have about a thousand questions, Hooligan, and I’d love to chat offline. Alison, would it be possible for you to send my email address to Hooligan? I would be so grateful if you could help connect us! I’m not overly keen on posting my contact info here either.

          1. Hooligan*

            Alison,

            I’d love to connect AdminAnon. If you see this, it’d be great if you could help us connect offline.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I typically don’t do this but if you both email me separately and reference this thread, I’ll make an exception! (Needs to be via email though, which streamlines it on my end so I’m not digging through comments looking for email addresses.)

  69. afiendishthingy*

    Any advice on handling transition stress/uncertainty when your leadership is changing?

    So last week my awful Director announced he was leaving (and is already gone – I am about 90% sure he was fired), and I was pretty excited because he was terrible for morale. But then this week our AVP, who is very supportive, knowledgeable, great at lightening the mood when we’re stressed (I somehow got thrown into basically running a client meeting my first week, in Spanish, when I would have had no idea what to do even in English – when I mentioned it to him afterwards he said “Actually those were all paid actors, it was a test to see how you did under pressure, and you passed!”), and overall a great boss, announced he’s taken a position with another agency and his last day is in a few weeks. He’s been here 15 years, and everyone is pretty devastated and worried about who’s going to take his place. I think things will probably be ok, but I’m worried others are going to start jumping ship too. Just a subdued, stressed office this week.

    1. Partly Cloudy*

      “(I somehow got thrown into basically running a client meeting my first week, in Spanish, when I would have had no idea what to do even in English – when I mentioned it to him afterwards he said “Actually those were all paid actors, it was a test to see how you did under pressure, and you passed!”)”

      Um, what? Is this normal? It seems like a waste of time and money on the company’s part, and kind of cruel.

      Sorry I don’t have advice regarding your actual question. I can’t get past this. ^^^

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        I know, it sounds worse than it was, it wasn’t normal for anyone, it was my coworker mishandling a situation and basically made me do it. I do speak Spanish but at that time I was pretty rusty, coworker was giving me some questions to ask but not much. I felt pretty horrible afterwards but being thrown to the wolves is not the norm at my agency, I swear.

        1. Partly Cloudy*

          I just realized that I’m stupid. I think the part about them being paid actors is a joke, and that’s how this AVP lightened the mood?

          1. afiendishthingy*

            yes :) haha, sorry if that wasn’t clear, and I read your comment quickly and didn’t realize you thought they’d actually hired actors to make me feel bad about myself. He also apologized for me being put into the situation in the first place.

  70. Miss M*

    Just curious: Freelance is my sole source of income and sometimes I encounter well-meaning people who look for contacts that I may have. I prefer to go out and get work on my own (it just works out better that way) but recently I met with a person who asked me this question:

    If you know any editors/publications accepting pitches, I’d be grateful if you wouldn’t mind putting me in contact with them. I’d be pitching completely different areas and topics so no worries about me stealing work from you.

    I’m hesitant a bit. Not sure how to respond.

    1. Nanc*

      Ugh. In other words “I don’t like marketing myself so you do it for me for free OK thanks!”

      I think this is a case of you’re free to say “I’m afraid that won’t be possible.” If you’re feeling kind, you could point them towards the company/agency website and suggest they contact them directly and ask who they should query. If you’re feeling BEC (me!) you could say “sure, my rates for that are $obscene figure/hour, two hour minimum, payable in advance with no guarantees of work!”

    2. MsM*

      “Sorry, but I don’t think I’ll be any help there. If I hear about anything in your area, though, I’ll let you know!”

    3. Anony-moose*

      If that were an email query, I’d probably ignore it. It’s so out of line!

      It’s one thing to say “hey, I believe you know Bob over at Chocolate Teapots Quarterly. Do you mind introducing me via email” (which even then is a big favor) and another to say “Hey let me benefit from your carefully cultivated contacts!”

      If you do feel like you need to respond, I like Nanc’s suggestion of just “That’s not going to be possible.”

  71. IndianSummer*

    It is performance review time, and I have to do a pretty intense self-evaluation. I have mentioned my lack of work before on these threads. I feel like I am hanging on by a thread. It really sucks.

    I am having a really hard time with this evaluation. I have never had a bad review before, but if I am honest, I will have one sucky review this year. I am super stressing over how to remain honest about my strengths and weaknesses, indicate that I need more work/more of a challenge, and yet refrain from sabotaging myself.

    Also, I have an interview coming up! Fingers crossed that I can get out of this situation in which I feel undervalued, which leads to a general apathy about my current job.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Good luck with the interview!

      Self-assessment is rough when you’re not feeling good about your work. Would it help to think about your review as detailing the areas you want to focus on improving, rather than detailing the things that didn’t go so well this year? I usually find that frame more helpful but people vary in how well it works for them!

  72. Kristine*

    Long time reader, first time poster here!

    So I have a somewhat tricky resignation situation on my hands. I work for a private school and just accepted a job offer this morning (woo!) at another one. Now I have to resign.

    This is my first job out of college, and I want to handle this as professionally as possible. Conventional wisdom holds that you should resign in person, or over the phone at the very least (right?)

    The problem is that my Old Job is closed until July 9…which happens to be the exact day I’ll start New Job. The only way I can get in contact with my boss at Old Job is through email (she won’t be in the building or checking her work phone).

    I’d really rather resign in person, but it’s looking like email is my only option! Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this? Should I leave a phone message and send an email? Offer to come in when school is back in session? I’m lost!

    1. Mean Something*

      You could email her and ask for her phone number to talk with her about something urgent. But I’d also be sure to enter a formal resignation of some kind. Is there an HR person? If someone calls the office, whom does the outgoing message say to contact? Is there anyone at all in the building?

      1. Kristine*

        If you call the school, the voicemail message simply says the school is closed until the 9th and to have a great summer vacation. I could leave a message but nobody would get it until the 9th. Not the best business practice, in my opinion.

        1. Mean Something*

          No, that’s terrible. I just got a message today about a student who needs to change schools and needs his paperwork and teacher recs, for example. I hope you can get in touch with your boss! I agree with HigherEd Admin that you need to get this said and done.

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      I would email; time is an issue here. I would say something like, “I had hoped to tell you this in person, but since the school is closed until the 9th…”

    3. Dasha*

      I agree with Mean Something, email her and make an effort to get her on the phone or face-to-face. If that doesn’t work then email your resignation because it sounds like you are in a time crunch and you need to let her know so she can plan accordingly.

    5. justcourt*

      Are there any co-workers you can reach out to for your boss’ contact info? Boo to your employer for making management so inaccessible.

  73. Jen RO*

    Alison, is/was there a problem with your auto-replies? I sent you an email a few days ago and I didn’t get the usual email back (I checked my spam and everything). Should I try resending it or just wait?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      That usually means that for some reason the email went to my spam folder (which I never check because there’s far too much in there). Try again? And if you still don’t get the auto-reply, tell me a key word from the email and I can search the spam folder for that!

      1. Jen RO*

        It didn’t go through the second time either. Try searching for “inner Alison”. I sent it from the same email I use to comment.

      2. YandO*

        Alison,

        I emailed you my question and never got an auto-reply, but you actually answered my question a few days later on the website.

        So I don’t think it went to your spam folder. Thought you should know.

        1. Natalie*

          Just re-sent mine, but if it doesn’t come through search for “purple monkey dishwasher”

          Thanks!

          2. AnotherFed*

            Please tell me that is part of the actual question and not just a key phrase to make the search easy!!!!!

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Oh, this is weird. You’re right — it’s the auto-responder that’s not working. I wonder how long that’s been happening. Hmmm.

  74. Dynamic Beige*

    Anyone have any tips about dealing with burnout?

    I came to the realisation on the weekend that I’m burnt out. Not merely “tired” or “need a break/rest” but burnt out. Even worse, when I look back over the years, it’s just a cycle of working like crazy, feeling “tired”, then just as I’m starting to feel better, more crazy work, which has got me worried that I’ve been this way for decades now.

    Unfortunately, I’m single and I never seem to be in favour with the Lottery Gods (whoever they may be) so it’s not like I can just take a year off and bum around, I have various commitments that would make it not impossible but impracticable (although a year’s sabbatical would be *awesome*). I have been working about changing the focus of my business, but that is also a slow process and I’m too tired to be really excited or enthused about it. I know I should be working harder, but I just can’t get enough of a head of steam going to gain traction. I’ve taken the last two weeks to give myself a vacation and just not do anything but, it’s not really helping, I’m not bouncing back. Since it seems you can’t fast track this kind of thing that’s bad but I know what’s going to happen: I have no work booked for the next couple of months. Which on the one hand — awesome! Naps! No deadlines or pressure! But on the other, is not awesome because no money coming in (Yay! Freelance!). And the temptation to just keep napping is soooo great… I’ll get nothing accomplished before the next cycle — or I’ll be halfway to getting something done that I want done and be interrupted by the next project –> which is what happens all the time.

    1. OriginalYup*

      One thing to consider: recharging isn’t just about naps and doing nothing. (I am totally in favor of naps and doing nothing as a form of relaxation, FYI. I’m just speaking to the burnout factor.) You might want to make time for fun and creativity. Look at art, read books, listen to live music, visit a garden/outdoor space, learn to cook a totally different kind of cuisine, try a sport or hobby that you’ve never done before (tango lessons, swimming, knitting, scrapbooking), join a book club or meetup group, take different routes to the usual places you go (e.g. the shops or supermarket), take a short cheapie vacation to a nearby place you’ve always meant to visit but never been to.

      Part of burnout is that feeling of never-ending sameness stretching out to the horizon. If you try to change up sight lines and habits, it can help jump start all the parts of your brain that are stuck in a rut of exhaustion and survival.

      1. cuppa*

        This is really important. I went through a very tumultuous period in my personal life for a few years, and responded by hermiting and binge watching Netflix. It didn’t help and just extended the burnout. The key is to find things that actually recharge you rather than just escaping. It took me a while to find those things for myself. It will also help you enthuse yourself about making changes.
        Good luck!

    2. Anonymous Promoter, Regular Reader*

      Shameless promotion for a program I am participating in (and help to run): the Shannon Leadership Institute. The Shannon is a program aimed at personal and professional renewal, mostly but not exclusively for community-serving leaders. I’m participating in this year’s cohort and it’s already revolutionized how I live and work.

      http://www.shannoninstitute.org

      (Alison, feel free to delete if this is spammy.)

    3. Diddly*

      I’d also look at talking to a doctor/therapist to help you deal with burnout and or depression – as I feel the two could be linked.
      Or maybe set yourself up with some relaxing/refreshing courses – meditation, yoga, tai chi or boxing. Get out of the house and do things that invigorate you – cooking classes, going to the beach etc. If things you liked no longer seem enjoyable definitely go see a doctor and talk through how you’re feeling.

    4. Glod Glodsson*

      Yes, and make sure to take that time to take a good look at why you feel that way! If you don’t deal with it, the burn-out might come back in a physical way – your body can shut down completely when you have a burn-out. By then, the decisions are made for you. Perhaps you could take the non-booked weeks to really take a look at what has been happening and how you can turn it around (as the posters above suggested).

    5. misspiggy*

      It’s really important to give your body a regular schedule – varied activity each day in small chunks, repeated at the same time every day. Set alarms to get up and walk around every 20 minutes; exercise, eat and sleep at the same times each day; do shopping and housework at the same times each week, and break demanding tasks up into small chunks over the week rather than doing loads in one go and then resting for several days. Very important to stave off long term health problems.

  75. Mean Something*

    You could email her and ask for her phone number to talk with her about something urgent. But I’d also be sure to enter a formal resignation of some kind. Is there an HR person? If someone calls the office, whom does the outgoing message say to contact? Is there anyone at all in the building?

  76. Foxtrot*

    I’m just letting things out. :)
    I got rejected for an internship after getting pretty far along in the process. It was highly competitive, so I knew there was a higher chance of getting rejected than getting an offer, but it’s still a little bummy. I thanked them for their time and I was told to keep trying for future opportunities. Trying to not read too much into it, though.

    1. Mean Something*

      I’m sorry!

      It’s actually good to apply to highly competitive stuff and get rejected. If you’re getting everything you go for, you’re probably aiming too low. I’ve had to reject so many terrific applicants, and it’s great to see them get other jobs/prizes/opportunities later.

      For myself, I always try to remember to take rejections as an occasion to celebrate that I went for something I wanted. Seriously. I’ve gone out to coffee or dinner with a friend to mark the end of the process, even if it didn’t go the way I wanted…this time.

      1. Diddly*

        I like that Mean Something that’s a really good idea – will celebrate rejections next time :)

    2. NacSacJack*

      When a door closes, somewhere a window is opened. Just gotta find that d**n window. :) A friend relayed to me in my personal life, when one path closes, it wasn’t meant to be. Your path is elsewhere. Not here.

  77. Rock*

    Question for ya’ll:
    Are unshaved legs on a woman inappropriate in an office setting?
    I wish it weren’t so, but I definitely feel the answer is yes. I shaved for the first time in many a month for a work event where I really had to be wearing a dress…
    Opinions?

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      I hope people say yes. Although, even if they do, I suspect the answer is still no in the area I live. Which means I have to shave some during the summer. :(

      1. Rock*

        The frustrating thing for me is that the area I live in is very liberal-minded (on the whole) but my particular company is Headquartered in a much more conservative city, and it is a relatively conservative industry.
        :/
        Reading the below, though, it makes me happy that some people are able to do what they please.

    2. anonanonanon*

      No. It’s a personal choice. I know women deciding to shave or not shave their armpits/legs is a hot button issue for many people, but I believe it’s a personal choice and no one should really comment on your decision. Some people don’t shave for health, religious, or other personal reasons. Mainstream society tends to believe women should shave because it’s “proper feminine appearance”, but if it makes you happy to not shave, then good for you. I personally shave because I prefer it, but even in the summer there are times when I’ll go a few days without shaving.

      I also find that unless you have really dark hair, people rarely notice when you don’t shave. If they do, they’re either way too close to you or spending a lot of time staring at your legs.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Yep. I don’t shave super frequently, I’m generally bare-legged, and I don’t think people notice. I don’t have particularly dark or thick leg hair though.

    3. Diddly*

      Yeah unfortunately unless you’re wearing thick tights, long dress, or leggings under dress. Basically only way not to is to have very unnoticeable hair or cover up. Sorry wish it wasn’t so.

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      I feel like a jerk saying this and it’s probably the result of some bullshit social conditioning but I do think that unshaved legs with a dress would look unprofessional. Not massivly unprofessional but still a bit, especially at an event where I assume everyone dressed up. It seems like fairly standard grooming that would look out of place not to do. But I don’t think it’s the biggest problem if your preference is to not shave.

      On the other hand maybe it depends on the field and the conventions of the office in more formal places I’ve worked Ive been told to have a shave after a few days worth of growth is on my face, just for dealing with interal clients from another department, where I am now isn’t anywhere near as formal so it’s not an issue.

      In the UK in he 1800s Queen Victoria was so offended by seeing the hair on men’s legs when she went to court she insisted they worse two pairs of tights to stop any poking through, a tradition many barristers and QCs still keep today.

      1. Rock*

        Nah, it’s not jerky. It’s… the prevailing norm. :/ It sucks, but lots of things do.
        It was for a moderately formal event, and for context, it was one we invited the governor to. He didn’t show, but just as an idea of what the level of client facing was.
        I’m a fair-skinned, dark-haired individual, and sadly that makes my shaving preference give me a hobbit-like appearance… ;)

    5. TheLazyB*

      I shave my legs and pits next to never, and I wear sleeveless dresses and knee length dresses albeit with tights. I’ve never had any weird looks or problems. Except with my sister, but she works elsewhere :)

      1. Rock*

        That’s fantastic!
        My office is not highly conservative, but the industry is, and I think that unfortunately is my answer… :(
        That said, I’m very glad you can let your leg hair fly free. :)

    6. fposte*

      Ugh. I hate hair policing. But I shave my legs anyway–I just rebel by doing it badly and inconsistently.

      In my academic office, I don’t think shaving is a big deal. The more your hair stands out, the more distracting it’s likely to be if you don’t, but we’re really not rocking the high-polish look. My guess is there’s a formula involving level of office polish and noticeability of individual leg hair that would provide the answer.

    7. Sara*

      I feel like the answer is yes, but that might be because the most unprofessional person I have yet worked with is a woman who never shaved her legs or armpits AND really liked to talk about not shaving/her other personal grooming habits in the workplace, along with many, many other topics about how she conducted her personal life that frankly, I just didn’t want to know about. She had a habit of propping her feet up on furniture – tables, chairs, whatever – and would inspect or play with her leg hair before and after (though thankfully not often during) meetings. I like to think that I’m generally on board with other people choosing to flow with or reject social norms, but after three years of dealing with this woman, shaving is one norm I’m very much in favor of.

    8. Anonsie*

      Unfortunately, yes.

      I think this is a hard one to push back about because there’s no situation where a guy would be wearing something that could show body hair (chest, leg, pits or otherwise) and have that be ok, so unlike a lot of things this is something that is literally *never* seen in the workplace and automatically throws the switch on a “that’s private and doesn’t belong here” reaction.

      1. Student*

        Dunno where you work, but in my field guys wear stuff that show body hair all the time. Shorts, mainly, but sometimes sleeveless shirts. I’ve had to ask guys to take their hairy feet (bare or in sandals) off conference tables. That’s because I don’t want their feet up at face level when I’m talking to them, not because of the hair on their feet – I’d yell at the foot-bald to not do that either. It’s only women who can’t show body hair here.

        1. Anonsie*

          It happens but cahman, that’s not typical. If I worked somewhere dudes are putting their bare feet on the tables, I would try it with my legs.

    9. Student*

      I never shave my legs. I also always wear pants. I don’t care if people see a little bit of hair at my socks or ankles. I expect I’d get a lot of unwelcome comments if I wore shorts or a dress.

      If you really want to wear a dress without shaving, you could try leggings maybe.

    10. K*

      Well, the social standard says yes, it’s inappropriate, but it shouldn’t be, so who cares?? I don’t shave my legs and no one has said anything.

    11. Sunshine Brite*

      I would say frowned upon, but not horridly inappropriate if you work in a liberal environment. I’ve been really bad about shaving my legs since a medical reason has made it really difficult to keep up on quickly growing hair, although similar thickness. I still wear dresses and shave sometimes but not super consistent.

  78. Pleiades*

    I just got nominated and voted onto a board! For a nonprofit organization (think “The Conservation of the Historic Chocolate Tearoom”) I care about, that does good work, and that I’ve helped in the past.

    This was, deep down, a secret life goal of mine. I’m so immensely honored, and excited to help the organization in this way. Problem is, I have absolutely no idea what I’m in for.

    Knowledgable folks of AAM, is there anything I should know, or anything I should do to prepare?

    1. Anony-moose*

      You’ll likely be asked to help in fundraising efforts. Was there a board orientation and was this discussed?

      1. Glod Glodsson*

        Congratulations! My personal experience is that there was a lot less Actual Work and a lot more Red Tape than I’d hoped for. It took some recalibrating for me, for sure. This might vary from organisation to organisation, though!

      2. Pleiades*

        Haven’t heard anything about that. The “Tearoom” is owned by the city, so it gets very little funding (it’s not exceptionally important in the Grand Scheme of Things, I suppose) …so this board basically helps with that.

        I was nominated and voted in, and am now expected to attend the meetings, that’s all I know.

        My background with the organization is that I helped come up with, plan/organize and throw special event nights that have 1) raised a decent amount of money for the Tearoom and 2) enticed some of the younger set to come check out the Tearoom – which is a beautiful, special place that basically everyone loves….IF they make the effort to come see it.

        1. Development professional*

          Congratulations! What the board does varies so greatly from nonprofit to nonprofit, there’s very little that’s a “rule.” But this would be a great time to ask the chair of your board (or another board member who’s been on for a while) to go to lunch or coffee with you. And just ask some questions and get to know each other. This is a completely normal thing to do, I promise.

    2. Anon369*

      Agreed – you’ll likely be expected to tap your own wallet and those of your network. From you, the “best practice” as I understand it is that this becomes the major non-profit that you support, with a pretty sizeable commitment (for you). Would be interested if others abide by that.

  79. De Minimis*

    Starting to get the unemployment blues….it has been three weeks since I left my job. I moved the following week and had a flurry of activity my first week here, but then nothing. Thought I had a prettty good chance at one of the positions and also made it through the panel interview on another one [county government job where my name was went to the selecting official] but haven’t heard anything since.

    Been applying like mad since then, but haven’t had any further interest. It’s definitely true that it will always take longer to find a job than you think, especially after you leave a job. There are a lot of jobs south of here, but the commute would be horrendous [timewise and also expense.] Probably if I don’t find anything in a month I may expand the search to a city that is actually 60 miles away, becasue there are a lot of state government jobs there and the commute would still be easier than the city south of here.

    Think I have everything shored up as far as my unemployment claim with my previous state, though I was told they would need to do an investigation since it was a voluntary quit and that will take a month at least—though I did send them copies of my wife’s offer letter and our marriage license so maybe that will speed things up.

    On the positive side, really love the town we’re living in and am extremely happy to be back in this state, but just need a job!

    1. Nanc*

      Have you thought about temping? It’s been a long time since I temped but I loved it and if it came with benefits, I would have done it for the rest of my life! If you sign up with an agency and indicate you’re willing to do short term jobs you’ll have a better chance of getting steady work without a long commitment. This will let you keep looking for a job and make you available for interviews on shorter notice. I did a lot of vacation and sick coverage for secretaries and receptionists, but if you’re in a bigger city there may be agencies that specialize in your industry.

      Second, it’s summer time! Think seasonal positions–again, you can still keep applying for jobs and hopefully can work around your schedule for interviews. Is there a theme park or other tourist attraction in your area? Parks and Rec? Hotels needing extra front desk staff?

      If you’re in a position where you don’t absolutely need to work part-time while looking for a permanent position, maybe find somewhere to volunteer–something you really enjoy and would keep doing even after you’ve found a full time job. It will get you out of the house and meeting folks. Walk dogs for the animal shelter. Help out at your local library. Meals on Wheels. Hospital volunteer. Chamber of commerce.

    3. Anonymousterical*

      In April, I left my last job with nothing lined up, and except for two interviews at a company I’d spoken with five months before, I heard nothing from anyone for a good (horribly scary?) 40 days. Then I started hearing back from my earliest applications, and then more and more companies started asking for interviews. I applied for at least 50 different positions and had 8-10 interviews out of those, then two job offers. Companies are slow with those applications. Good luck! :)

  80. Just Reading A Little*

    I am having trouble applying for jobs. I love working, and have had some great gigs in the past, but, right now I need to send out resumes and I a just, blah. I have tweaked my resume and gotten some great feedback, but I really need to get over this, not applying thing. It is not good. It has been 1.5 months since my last job and I need to get a move on.

    Otherwise things are going great, lost a few pounds and started to run, so there is that. But jobs, jobs, need to apply for the jobs. Anyone have any experience with stressing over applying?

    1. afiendishthingy*

      Nope, pretty sure you’re the only one, sometimes I apply for jobs as therapy when I can’t get to yoga.

      Seriously, job searching is one of my least favorite things, and I’m also prone to avoidance/procrastination when stressed. But it sounds like it’s time to stop agonizing over the details of your resume and just apply. Accept that a lot of those resumes/cover letters will seem to just disappear into the ether and you’ll never hear from the employer, but if your materials are good at least a few will call you. It’s a weird, frustrating, unnatural process (to me anyway) but apply for 2-3 jobs today. You will feel better!

    2. Diddly*

      This is me although I have applied for jobs and am at the second month of being without a job. My prob (I think) was I felt a little deflated, I came of a post graduate program, temped, did extra courses, volunteered, got a new job then lost it after 6 months. And going back on that wheel felt terrible. Especially when I felt I’d done everything right. But job was wrong wrong wrong.
      But I have applied – sometimes right at the deadline.
      I think I read somewhere here that Alison said your cover letter and resume should take you about an hour to write. This weirdly eased my anxiety because you can stick a timer on – write for that amount of time and see what you have. You can see a lot of the apps as practice, so you don’t need to be perfect you just need to try an improve each application. Pomedero technique also helped me as did having this app Taskboard – where I can list deadlines on like index card headings and then list jobs within them – then move them to a completed, rejected etc list.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Yes, giving myself a time limit definitely helped me. It’s one of the situations where finished > perfect.

    3. Today's anon*

      To me this is related to anxiety so sometimes applying for jobs that are not my main job interest gets me going – for example, I applied to a job that was definitively interesting but was many states away. Now, I would rather not relocate but if the offer turns out to be really good I might consider it. So applying to this job was much less stressful than applying for a job in my city where I feel the stakes are higher but that I was procrastinating about. However after sending the first application off, I was in job-hunters’ mode and was able to successfully work on the cover letter for the job that was more of my priority.

  81. Username with profession removed*

    I just started a new job with the government and I suspect that at least one of the casual workers here wanted my job and resents the fact that I got it instead of her. She still works here part-time (therefore with no benefits) and I feel so awkward around her. If she did apply, the only possible reasons she didn’t get it aren’t very good, in my opinion – it could be that her second language skills weren’t quite good enough (when in reality I’m rarely called upon to use mine) or that I happened to score higher on the test. If it’s the latter, that’s just ridiculous, because she’s not only been doing my job until now, but has also stood in for our manager.

    Any advice for how I should handle this? I find it hard to know how much I should ask her for help with things I don’t know – on the one hand, I feel like going to my manager looks like I don’t respect her knowledge, but on the other, training me isn’t in her job description and could rub salt in the wound as I clearly am not as experienced as her.

    1. Diddly*

      Hmmm… I think my tactic would be to act like you don’t know this is the case – for all you know she needs to be casual worker. But at the same I’d try to ask for help from her as little as possible. So act a little dumb… I guess.
      But if she’s got a chip on her shoulder and the company hired you instead of her this is a management concern – not yours and not something you should feel responsible for. You got the job and you have no idea what they were looking for – but believe you’re the better candidate and don’t try and sugarcoat something for her that you had no control over.
      Only follow up to this is if you notice lots of people being annoyed at you having this position, or you being given roles/tasks that other people had and thought they would continue to have. Happened to me in last job (so many bad things!) management was poor and continued to give me roles others enjoyed/usually did who then felt annoyed at me for taking them – I think it led to just general dislike of me- so be careful if it’s not just this one person.
      Equally can you ask a trusted person or the manager whether anyone in th office was up for the role? Maybe she wasn’t and you’re worrying for no reason.

      1. Username with profession removed*

        Thanks! I am desperate to know but no one has breathed a word either way. To add to the resentment, I moved from “the big city” (which has its own economic problems, but no one here sees that) to this economically depressed region for the job and some people outside my workplace have openly commented that they shouldn’t be giving away these jobs to outsiders. You’re absolutely right about there being a problem of preferred tasks becoming part of my job. Yesterday there was a part of one of these tasks that I couldn’t do since I still don’t have access to a shared drive, and I mentioned it to this co-worker. She pretty much refused to do something that would have taken her 30 seconds so I figure there is some annoyance there. But if I don’t do these tasks, I know there will be grumbling about me being paid more to do less!

        1. Diddly*

          Eee that’s difficult. Yeah I got given all these tasks that I had no knowlege were other people’s concern – for instance I wasn’t given clear guidelines about blogging – was made to feel I would be doing the majority of it when that wasn’t the usual case and it caused tension and difficulty with one team member, similarly other communications. There hadn’t been a newsletter in forever and there was talk of doing one for that month but no one acted andI had been told it was my domain – so I got on it, later told that in fact it was another colleagues role (which no one but him seemed to know) and basically they didn’t like the way I wrote… But anyway it spoke of poor management if we’ve been talking forever that I should do something, no ones aware someone else has laid claim to it and he hasn’t done it in a year… Anyway I think I should have seen it as a red flag (there were many others) . This may be an Alison question.
          Feel like you should talk to your manager and say that you’re worried you’re stepping on other people’s toes and there seems to be general resentment of you in the office, could there be a way of clarifying your role to everyone. But experiencing what I did I’d look for a way out – or prepare for this to not work out. Although other people might have better advice.

  82. Brett*

    My employer put in a policy (and is actively enforcing it) that all linked in accounts must link to our staff email. This has a few issues, but fighting that policy is a lost cost; it stems from an attorney general decision that linkedin communications to local government employees are subject to sunshine law requests.

    We also have a link protection product that validates any link sent in a 3rd party email, and that is where the problem comes in. A recent change blocks all links in linkedin job/job search/career emails. The links are altered so that they go to a 404 page with no way of retrieving the original link. This is only affecting that specific set of emails, and always affects those emails.

    My employer has used aggressive tactics in the past to prevent employees leaving, and I think this is another one of those tactics. The impact on me is minimal, because I know how to get around the link blocking; most employees would not know how to do this. I do have a very good working relationship with our CIO, but do not know if he is directly aware of this policy change.

    Any ideas on how/if I should address this?

    1. Judy*

      Doesn’t any message you get from linked in show up in your feed on the site? And if you have it on your smartphone, don’t you get notifications? It may be a non-issue. I know linked in and facebook have both really stopped sending me emails because I don’t click their links.

      1. Brett*

        Job posting notifications don’t show up in your feed or notifications. I still get the normal invitation to connect and group post emails with the links intact. It is only the job listing and related emails that are getting scrubbed.

  83. ScottySmalls*

    So I feel that I need to step up my job search and reach out to my network in order to find something. Is it totally out of the question to ask one of my supervisors if she knows of anything? She’s been supportive of me and has helped me get more hours, but there’s only so much she can do. Is this too much to ask?

    1. Diddly*

      No idea. Would it jeopardise your current job? It might leave her in an uncomfortable position… I think I wouldn’t but depends on your relationship to her and perhaps also hers to her job. I could imagine that she might help get you more own hours at her company but helping you go somewhere else seems unlikely unless you specify it would be part-time around current role?

  84. Felicia*

    I got a 16.8% raise! Didn’t even ask for one. And my performance review was basically:
    Boss “You’re awesome in every way. Good job. Want more money?”
    Me “Sure sounds good!”
    Boss “That’s great, sign here, keep up the good work!”

    It’s really great although I am am still super insecure. It’s like “What am I doing that they are paying me all this money and praising me?” That is more my problem than anything, but I hope this helps me become more confident.

  85. Will*

    Is it sketchy to use a presentation made for your current job when you’re interviewing for the next job?

    I’ve been asked to give a technical presentation in an interview. I’m thinking about using an analysis slide package I put together in my current job. Is this commonly done, or do I have to make a completely new and original presentation? I am also slightly concerned about the data/results contained in the presentation. It’s not classified nor marked proprietary but it is extremely detailed and it’s possible that showing it to a group of strangers would raise eyebrows. Thoughts?

    1. Nanc*

      If you use an existing presentation, modify and/or remove any company details and data. I think it’s fine to explain that you’ve done these sorts of presentations and analyses in past positions and you’re presenting a generic sample of the type of work you’ve done.

      PS–If you can modify it to be about Chocolate Teapots, Inc., that would be awesome!

    2. JennaP*

      Can you anonymize it in any way? If the slides are on a template with the company logo, copy the data onto standard slides. Change the results slightly, or if specific names are mentioned, make them generic. Pare down the amount of data shown so that it gives them an idea of what you did, but not all of it (while making sure that what you show them still makes sense).

  86. Laura the Librarian*

    I have a LinkedIn question. I’m hoping to start job hunting seriously soon and I’ve been updating my LinkedIn profile. I’ve given several presentations at our local Bar Association and at regional conferences and I’ve not sure how to list them on my profile. Right now, I’ve got them under publications, but that seems weird. Any ideas?

    1. Diddly*

      I think there’s a projects section, but I’m. It all that clued up in linked in or how it’s helpful.

  87. Rosa*

    So, I have not received hours for the past three weeks (I’m part-time), and my boss won’t reply to my emails. Was I fired?

    1. Diddly*

      How do you usually receive your hours?
      Call whoever is in charge and say you think there’s been an oversight and you haven’t received your hours.
      I can’t imagine you’ve been fired, and until you talk to someone you don’t know either. Please call – and also update us! Best of luck!

    2. Jennifer*

      This sounds like the passive-aggressive “technically not fired BUT” kind of crap retail people pull.

      So technically probably not, but in reality maybe they just want you to officially quit already. Especially if they won’t reply to your e-mails, jeez.

      1. Natalie*

        If it is this, FYI it doesn’t affect your eligibility for unemployment. (You may or may not have been eligible before, but an employer can’t get around that by just cutting your ours and not firing you.)

      2. Rosa*

        It’s weird because they would always compliment me before, and even talked about working in the summer? It really is just bizarre.

    3. Diddly*

      Sorry i think I misread this as this week, still think best to call, and I’m really sorry if this is their crappy way to sack you.

  88. Mike SS*

    Need Advice:

    I recently left my place of employment after two years. I liked the company, but was not paid enough. after a weeks of job interviews, I got a new job. It is now my third day on the job and my new boss informed me that he is friends with my old boss. My new boss just asked me if he could contact my old boss. Truth is, I didn’t inform my old boss of where I was headed (I didn’t think it was any of his business), and I don’t know how to tell my new boss that I don’t want him calling my old boss. Any advice on how to tell my new boss I’m not okay with it?

    1. MsM*

      I’m not sure I understand why it would be such a problem for your old boss to know where you ended up, if the problem was just the pay and not that he was a really bad boss. And if there’s an online staff directory or you have a LinkedIn profile, the information’s going to get out sooner or later anyway.

      1. MikeSS*

        I went to a competitor and I don’t want my old boss attempting to badmouth me to my new boss. My old boss was not happy that I left, and I don’t want any ill feeling he may have to be told to my new boss.

        1. Artemesia*

          “My old boss was most unhappy when I told him I was leaving and so I did not tell him where I was going. I would very much prefer that you not discuss my work here with him.”

        2. MsM*

          Then I’d say something like, “[Old Boss] was understandably unhappy about me leaving, and I’m nervous how he’ll react when he learns I’m here. I don’t want this to cause a rift in your friendship, but I’d just as soon you not bring it up if you don’t have to, and I really appreciate you checking with me.”

          Again, I don’t think you’re going to be able to keep this under wraps forever, and it’s possible that New Boss can be your ally in breaking the news while simultaneously defusing Old Boss’s temper. But if not, at least you’ve given him a diplomatic heads up that there might be some backlash.

  89. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I interviewed with a long term years long great company and I provided details post-interview as per their request. Then days later they thanked me and said they will “be in touch soon.” Is this promising?

    1. Anonymousterical*

      They’re still in contact after the interview; that is promising. But the “will be in touch soon”? Meh. Hopefully, they would be in touch with you either way. Good luck!

  90. Frustrated Yogi*

    I manage a yoga studio, and the 2 owners live 6000 miles away. The studio is based in the US. My boss wants me to get his approval before making a trip to a store, and I’m having a hard time thinking of a way to say (in a text conversation) that I think that’s a flipping stupid idea. I think his request is ultimately based in a whole host of trust issues, but I’m only 2 months on the job and don’t want to rock the boat too much. Any wording suggestions? Right now all I’ve got is: “I guess I’m just not sure how this would make things more efficient, or what the concern is with me going to a store?”

    1. Anonymous Poster*

      Frame it in terms of how this impacts your responsibilities. So think in terms of, “One of my responsibilities is to make sure the quality of instruction is sufficient from day to day, and I currently accomplish this by drop in visits. Going forward, are you asking that I gain your permission to conduct my drop in visits?” or whatever’s appropriate for what your day to day responsibilities are.

      Think of how it will impact your day to day work and frame it that way, and if you want, also mention, “This is a change from how we’ve done things before. Is there a problem or concern that’s driving this change that I should be aware of, or something in particular that you want me to watch out for that’s causing us problems that I’m not aware of?” If you ask that question, listen carefully. You really want to know what the real issue is and do a great job managing these things for the owner, and there might be something you’re not aware of driving these changes, too.

      Good luck!

      1. Artemesia*

        I am reading this as trips to ‘a store’ to purchase supplies etc. If this is the case, I would be looking for a budget you manage so that you don’t run out of supplies. Give a concrete example of how the quality of the studio will be affected if you cannot take care of supply issues timely.

        If it is really dropping into the studio, then it is a crazy stupid idea to have to check with him each time so you might want to set up a schedule with him a month at a time.

  91. Beth*

    Hi everyone! I’ve been reading for a long time but never commented. Does anyone have any experience applying to NATO jobs? I currently work for the federal government and am applying to possibly two NATO jobs. One would still be civil service, so I know how that works, but one would be directly working for NATO. I’m not sue if they expect “regular” resumes, CVs, federal-style resumes…? I can’t find much out online besides what they tell you on the NATO website. And does anyone have experience with the pre-employment testing they use? And any other tips would be appreciated! Thanks so much :)

  92. KAZ2Y5*

    Oh my gosh! I have such (possibly) exciting news but I can’t tell anyone yet – so y’all are the lucky ones! I posted last week about having to get 5 references for an email survey for an awesome, awesome job. HR just emailed me back and wants to talk about a contingent offer. I have one former manager who is on vacation this week and hasn’t filled out the survey yet, so I am guessing that it is contingent on the completed survey. And I’m not supposed to call HR back until 12:30, so I don’t know exactly what they will say. But I am so, so excited! I have been without a job since my lay-off 7 months ago.
    The interview Monday went nothing like I thought it would. Very quickly in the interview we all realized I was not qualified for what they wanted (and the 7am start would be horrible for this night owl). The main interviewer then asked me how I felt about the night shift (this was on my resume and is my preferred shift). I decided to be brutally honest (and totally scrap this interview) and told him that I did love the night shift best. He then asked if I had applied for the night shift position in their sister hospital (This is a complex with about 6 hospitals). I had not heard of the position (it was new), so he called over there to see if they could talk to me and we then went over and I had my interview with them. Best interview ever! Have I said I was excited? It would be an awesome job – just exactly what I was looking for. Anyway, I will come back and post after I talk to HR but just had to tell someone!

    1. Diddly*

      That’s brilliant – happy for you :) – def remember the five references! Good luck!

    4. KAZ2Y5*

      So yes, I do have a job – contingent on passing their background check. So all is good and I start in 3 weeks. So excited and relieved to have a job again!

  93. Hedgehog*

    I have a question about confidentiality. I work in a social services field with teens. As part of my role, my coworkers and I have access to extensive amounts of these kids’ sensitive information. I recently started a new position (about 6 months ago) in an awesome organization, with wonderful coworkers. Every single one of us is deeply passionate about our work with these kids and, since it can be challenging work, we regularly have case consultation and support each other. However, as I’ve gotten to know my coworkers better and started to do some social things with them and their families/partners, I’ve slowly become more aware of coworkers (including my boss!) referring to one of the kids we work with by name to their SOs or their SOs making references to a certain kid’s history. For a couple of my coworkers, they’ve also referenced their SO’s clients (in a different field, but still subject to confidentiality) by name to me. Is this typical behavior? I’m concerned we’re violating our teenagers’ privacy– but maybe it’s some sort of self-care cultural norm that I haven’t seen before? Can anyone offer any insight?

    1. afiendishthingy*

      In my experience, it’s very common, but that doesn’t make it right. I admit to discussing clients with a few close friends but not by name, but even so I should be more careful about not giving identifying details (which area they live in, etc). I would say the coworkers referring to their SOs’ clients by name to you is not typical and is definitely not ok.

    2. barefeet54*

      I have been in a similar position – not with kids, but confidential information. I would never share someone’s name or personal information.

      1. Diddly*

        Exactly – sometimes you have to vent but you shouldn’t be giving away such specific details.

    3. Sunshine Brite*

      Nope, they shouldn’t be able to reference any of the kid’s history. I have my confidentiality red flags waving. I know I’ve discussed people by first name before if they have a common one and it’s just something like so-and-so said this funny joke today which is pushing it. But nothing where my husband could tell me much of anything about my former long-term clients besides which had a sense of humor or really got to me, at most.

      1. Sunshine Brite*

        And I’ve heard friends in other areas give first names occasionally, not often, but especially with teen programs.

        Self care around the client’s stories is meant to be done with other professionals who have to adhere to the same professional guidelines and confidentiality. I’m trying to brainstorm who you could talk to about this.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      Are the significant others also in your same organization?

      My situation is different in that the info we have is way less sensitive. Different staff members have access to different levels of information that they’re expected to keep completely close to the vest, but much of the information is acceptable to share across the organization, as long as it stays internal. I don’t know the legalities for your position, but when I’ve worked with teens in the past, this same norm was in place — some things that we knew would be very important for the teen to keep private, we kept as private as possible while still protecting the kid. Other things were fair game for the staff to share on, so we could say, “Here’s a problem I’m having with Wakeen; have you seen something like this before?” or “Heads up since you’re going to Jane’s school, where Wakeen also goes…this happened last week.” We were all on every kid’s team even though we had certain portfolios of specific kids.

      If the SOs are not in the same company…that doesn’t seem appropriate.

    5. EvilQueenRegina*

      I’ve never noticed anything mentioned in front of significant others on the occasions I’ve been out with my Exjob friends (Exjob being in that line of work) – what I have known is referring to “AW” in public places rather than the full name “Apollo Warbucks”. That’s usually only been in the presence of coworkers who’d know who was being referred to. Having said that, I remember once in an old temp job being out for the Christmas lunch and someone saying in the middle of the restaurant about “making a start on Persephone Mulberry’s Statement when we get back”.

    6. AnotherFed*

      Is this stuff that is definitely confidential and couldn’t come from another source? At least for some of the history, it can wind up in the news, or they could already know the kid’s family or go to the same church as the kid’s former neighbor who witnessed some of that history, and on and on. Unfortunately, it always seems to be the most horrific events that people feel compelled to effectively gossip about.

      I don’t know how common this is outside of the government, but they pretty much assume we’re going to screw up at some point and tell our SO something that shouldn’t be shared, so they investigate them to almost the same level. I’ve never met the people DH currently works with and certainly wouldn’t be able to come up with full names, but could certainly know people by call sign or first name, which might look bad until you realize I have no idea who Porkchop actually is.

  94. BananaPants*

    I’m feeling very meh about my husband’s job search and so is he. :(

    Mr. BP had a job opportunity come out of nowhere via a friend, and went to one interview last week then a final interview on Monday (including receiving salary and benefits info to review). The friend sort of got our hopes up by speaking really positively about his candidacy and the hiring manager has linked to Mr. BP on LinkedIn, but he hasn’t heard anything and the hiring manager was supposed to be contacting him this week. I know you’re supposed to put it out of your mind once the interviews are over, but that’s a lot easier said than done.

    He passed his certification exam last weekend, which is awesome, but until he actually receives the certification he can’t apply for jobs that require it. He updated LinkedIn with the certification as pending but that only does so much. And he’s not finding a lot in the way of jobs – we knew he’d probably have to start in a retail pharmacy (even if just to get his state registration) but even they aren’t calling back. He’s joining the state professional association for this field and are hoping their job postings are better than what’s on out there on general job boards.

    1. Diddly*

      Can he contact the hiring manager and ask when he’s likely to hear/what their timeline is? Always annoying to be waiting around.

  95. Penny*

    I work at a school and it’s the last day of the year (hooray!!), but I have no idea what to do this summer. Are there any teachers, admin staff, etc. around these parts? What sort of routine/activities do you guys have to keep yourselves from being (gasp) bored during the summer?! I already feel bored and the day isn’t even over yet!

    This is my first year working for a school, so I’ve never had the summer “off” before.

    1. Bekx*

      I’m not a teacher but my mom is! A lot of grocery stores in the area hire cashiers during the summer…if you want a summer job. Otherwise, maybe try a new hobby? I learned how to crochet from YouTube!

      1. Judy*

        As far as summer jobs go, my dad used to work as summer fill in for a bank. He would back fill tellers on vacation, a different branch each week, mostly. Not sure how he got that gig, but he did that for many years.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      I can only speak as someone married to a teacher with about a dozen years experience.

      She’s a science teacher, so she spends most of her summer planning out the next year’s curriculum. She figures out what experiments she wants to do when, and backdates when she has to order supplies since they tend to take 4-6 weeks to arrive. She also spends the time reading up on recent discoveries/advances in the sciences so she can try and make it more applicable.

      The really big thing she does, though, is the curriculum planning. Back when she used to teach elementary, that still took up a lot of her time, but instead of working on figuring out experiments she spent that time working on figuring out activities and then what supplies she’d need for the children in her class.

      She also used to have to work during the summer, so it wasn’t ever really restful for her. Hopefully you’ll have a more restful summer! And enjoy the (slight) break!

    3. Mean Something*

      I’m a teacher and department chair, and I’ll field minor issues throughout the summer–scheduling for next year, teaching assignments, etc. I have a long reading list (books I’ll teach next year, books and articles to help me teach those books, and reading for fun), and I’m doing curriculum planning like the science teacher’s spouse below.

      I’m guessing you’re more on the staff side, but there are definitely things you can do to sink more fully into the culture of working in a school, if you’re interested. Our school generally chooses a book for an all-staff read like Carol Dweck’s Mindset or Tom and David Kelley’s Creative Confidence. There are lots of periodicals about public and private schools and you could educate yourself on school issues by reading a blog like Curmudgucation or While Looking for Something Else…(recentreflection dot blogspot). Or read about child and adolescent development so that you understand more about kids. I love Mike Riera’s book Field Guide to the American Teenager.

      Then, of course, find ways to do stuff you can’t do during the school year: go to the grocery store in the middle of the day! Hit the gym! Catch up on a TV show! Make dentist and doctor appointments, car stuff, repairs–all the routine maintenance of you and your belongings. See friends who are free during the day (I have some friends whose work schedules are so different from mine that I rarely see them except in summer). Volunteer. Do political activism.

      A key for me (and I still struggle with it) is finding a balance between structured and unstructured time. I find I need some plans, but enjoy how much looser they can be in summer. Have fun!

    4. Diddly*

      Are you a teacher? There’s always summer English language courses round where I live that need ppl – either teachers or support staff. Would think it be fun too, although they might be all hired up by now.

    5. AB*

      I am a staff member at a University and we’re required to be here and work all year. Everyone seems to think that I get the summer off just because a lot of teachers do.

      1. Lia*

        Same here. If I had a dollar for everyone who said “Oh! You work at the university, you must love having the summer off!” I could probably retire. LOL.

      2. Mean Something*

        At our independent school, most staff work all summer. Office work goes on, the Business Office, Facilities, etc., and there are summer camps. Student services staff are planning the next school year. There’s way more to a school than classes from September to June!

    6. Ad Astra*

      My husband and his mom are both teachers, and they are loooving summer right now.

      Husband also coaches football, so he has some structure and responsibility, but mostly he’s golfing (he found some really cheap greens fees on Tuesdays), fishing, “fun” reading, grilling out with his buddies, that kind of thing. If you wanted to mimic the structure football gives him, I might suggest signing up for some kind of recreational class — spinning, knitting, pottery, powerlifting, whatever you’re into — that meets once or twice a week.

      My MIL uses the time to catch up on household projects and do a bunch of crafts so she can continue decorating every crevice of her home for each and every season. And she’s big on gardening. She and her husband installed some really elaborate fountain and a brick courtyard on their house already, and it’s not even July.

      There’s also the option of travel. My MIL takes lots of short trips to visit relatives around the country, and my husband has the joy of accompanying me to a million weddings this summer without taking PTO.

      I don’t know what you’re into, specifically, but hopefully this gives you some ideas.

    7. Claire (Scotland)*

      I’m a teacher, and we just broke up for the summer holidays today.

      It usually takes me about a week to wind down from work mode, and get used to being on holiday. I have a list of books I’ve bought this past year that I haven’t read yet, and a couple of TV shows to watch on Netflix (Daredevil and Sense8). I also make a list of things here in my home city that I want to do each summer, and try to do at least one a week. I make plans to meet up for lunch with friends who are working, and plan some short trips to visit friends further afield. And I make better use of my leisure pass subscription and go swimming/to the Turkish baths as often as I can.

      I used to bring home a pile of work stuff with me, thinking I’d do some planning/development work over the summer, but after a few years I learned that this is not a good idea. It never actually gets done, and having it sit there untouched just made me anxious. Now I don’t even think about work during the holidays – in our Head Teacher’s speech to us at the end of the day today, he told us to go away and forget about school and not to even check email from home. I plan to follow his instructions :D

  96. Golden Yeti*

    Quick question: I got a call for an interview earlier this week (my first in about 9 months). It would be a phone chat, then a sit down interview sometime next Friday. I sent my schedule to the company Tuesday (for the phone call). I haven’t heard anything since, so I sent a “check in” email this morning.

    I’m trying not to overdo it, but when should my next communication be if I don’t get a response today? (Wed is a holiday, too, which was why I emailed this morning.)

    I was thinking maybe a phone call Tuesday or Thursday? Or would that be overkill?

    1. Diddly*

      Phone Monday afternoon if you haven’t heard anything, they want to phone interview you first, then sit down interview Friday. You want give yourself time to prepare and also time between the two. Don’t wait till Thurs!
      So far you’ve only gently emailed, so I think calling is fine – maybe even today if it’s still work hours there.

      1. Golden Yeti*

        Thanks for the reply. They were hoping I could do a sit down interview earlier, but I had already booked the Friday off, so it made more sense. I think that was why they wanted to do the phone interview in the meantime. Maybe I’ll use the weekend to do more research on them, just in case.

        I’m trying to not get too excited, but a 9 month dry spell is quite awhile. At this point, I feel like a starving dog who just got tossed a single crumb…

    2. BRR*

      First check your spam folder.

      If they have not emailed you at all (aka that they might not have your correct email), I agree with Diddly. If they have emailed you I’d let it go. They know you exist.

  97. Marie*

    So after year and a half of having a permanent job dangled in my face with constant delays and excuses, I finally got it. And everyone in my department is excited about it…except for me. My net bi-weekly pay has actually decreased because of deductions for pension and health insurance (my very slight increase in gross pay does not offset those extra charges, and is still below market value), I’ve taken on some extra responsibilities but am still doing all the menial tasks from my old job because our student workers are extremely flaky and barely show up to half their shifts. The only thing that has changed is that I’m now salaried and I am no longer renewing my contract on a monthly basis (my job security is still questionable, as even though it is a union job, I am for some reason excluded from the article in the collective agreement which ensures job security because of what fund I’m being paid out of).

    I’m also seriously annoyed with how my department handled the hiring. They waited until I was out of the office for two days on a course they sent me on, and my director sent me a text informing me that HR had accepted my application, the job pays x much (very low pay), and I had less than 12 hours to accept or decline as the start date was to be effective immediately. No room for me to negotiate or come in and discuss things further with them (which I was told I would have the opportunity to do). When I didn’t accept right away he sent me a follow up text the next morning at 6:30(!) telling me that he “really needed” me to just accept the job. So I did, because it’s better than being unemployed, and they apparently celebrated while I was still out of the office. The whole process left me feeling dirty and taken advantage of. They can celebrate all they want, but I’m still looking for something else, hopefully at a place where it won’t take them 1.5 years to actually hire me!

    All that to say that being a young person in the current job market sucks, as no one is willing to hire us because they don’t take any experience we have seriously, and our current employers know they can take advantage of us mercilessly because we don’t really have any other options.

    1. Diddly*

      I’m sorry that really does suck, I hope you find something better soon.
      Small point as I don’t know what you do, but I think a problem I had when I made applications when I was in a job I hated was I devalued what I was doing, the things I knew, and stuff I did on a daily basis that others couldn’t.
      Make sure you’re making the most of your experience on your resume/cover letter, I think prior to leaving an old job I got stuck in I under-valued what I did and therefore mis-sold myself so that people didn’t take my experience seriously – because I didn’t.

    2. MsM*

      Honestly, I would have pushed back: “If it’s that important to get me on board permanently, then it’s important we discuss the terms face to face, or that you at least help me understand the urgency behind this offer. While I appreciate that things are finally moving forward, I’m not seeing why it can’t wait until I’m back in the office.” As it is, you’ve unfortunately given up some of that leverage, but that doesn’t mean you can’t still talk about the net decrease in pay, cite all the extra work you’re doing, and find out what your prospects are for additional compensation over the next year or so. Being young doesn’t mean you have no power, and you can’t be afraid of making any effort to exercise it.

    3. fposte*

      Agreeing with MsM. They can want you to say yes in 12 hours all they want–this is the only moment you’ll have to negotiate, and start dates can be dealt with. They’re talking about administrative convenience, not the fall of the guillotine, and it’s okay to inconvenience them by a day or so.

      I remember you talking about this, but I can’t remember the details–was one of the problems was that nobody would tell you the details of the permanent position until they offered it to you? Because you should have been able to get information about at least the range they were requesting approval for, and if they wouldn’t give that to you when you asked, that’s all the more reason to push back on a speedy decision on the offer–you didn’t actually know what was being offered until just now.

      Sorry this didn’t turn out well.

    4. BRR*

      I’m sorry they treated you this way. I’m curious why you waited so long though? Also you shouldn’t think of it as being paid less because you’re getting those benefits.

  98. katamia*

    I heard about lynda.com through this site and am doing a free trial of it now. Can anyone recommend any good courses to look at during the trial period? I’m especially interested in things that might come in handy for copyediting, proofreading, publishing, etc. I know how to use Track Changes and comments and such in Word and am hoping to take a look at the InDesign course, but does anyone have any other recommendations for programs or courses that might come in handy? I’ve done some editing work before and am actually starting a new editing job soon, but all I’ve ever needed for editing before is Word, and there must be other programs that would be useful to know.

    1. AVP*

      InDesign is a great idea. I would check out Photoshop and Illustrator too, even if you think you won’t use them. Also, do they have any tutorials for WordPress or other CMS systems? HTML and CSS? Those skills have always been really useful for me, even if I only need them rarely.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks! I’ve definitely seen WordPress stuff up there. I’ll look for the others, too.

    2. Ad Astra*

      I would definitely recommend learning some kind of CMS, like WordPress. A lot of copyediting jobs involve posting stuff online with a CMS. Besides that, InDesign, PhotoShop, and Illustrator are all good ideas.

      Adobe InCopy is a popular program that newspapers (and maybe other groups? not sure) use for copyediting, so you could try that. There are a lot of similar programs out there, so I’m not sure how likely it is that your future jobs would use InCopy specifically. And my experience is in news, but I don’t know what industry you’ll be copyediting in, so it could be different.

      I had three jobs in news and used InCopy, NewsEditPro, Newsgate, and another one that I’m forgetting — all for the same function. But they’re all similar and slightly more complicated than tracking changes in Word, so it could be useful to get a general idea of the kind of programs you might use in future jobs.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks! I’m not specifically looking to get into news, but it’s not something I’d be opposed to, either. I’ll look up the programs you mentioned.

  99. FJ*

    Cover Letter vs Resume. We all know from reading AAM that they are important.
    In what order do you, as a recruiter or HR person or hiring manager, read them?

    I was arguing with my fiance about this one. She is a resume-only kind of a person.
    Is the cover letter first so it should be trying to get you to look at my resume?
    Is the resume first so it convinces you I’m qualified and then the cover letter convinces you to invite me in for an interview?

    Particularly interested in hearing from engineering/technology related folks here.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I look at the resume first. As many folks note, most cover letters are not helpful at all in terms of a first review of a candidate. So the first thing I’m usually looking for is: do you have a set of experiences that makes me interested in learning more about your fit for this particular role. I usually find that on the resume.

      I definitely read the cover letter, so if you have a particularly good one, it will make you stand out and make it more likely that I’ll be able to put the pieces together from your resume on why you’d be a good person to talk to. That’s just so rare that I usually grab the resume first.

      When I send applications, though, I usually put the cover letter first. I do try to write good ones so hopefully it helps, but I try to make sure that my resume says enough to get a hiring manager jazzed about my candidacy.

    2. Anonymousterical*

      I did hiring for the law firm I worked at. I always looked at the cover letter first, and, if it passed muster, I would go on to the resume. (I usually read all the resumes just because I get a kick out of them, but very rarely would a decent resume overshadow a terrible cover letter. And I’ve seen some terrible cover letters.) But my boss there put a lot of weight on cohesive, appropriate writing and NO TYPOS EVER!!! and she had final say on who we called for interviews. (If I was hiring for engineering/technology, I would imagine I would put a lot more weight on work experience and education, FWIW.)

    3. AnotherFed*

      I do engineering hiring. I go straight to the resume – I’m most interested in technical skills, software/tool skills, and what your last job was. If it looks like you have the skills I need, then I read the rest of the resume for any bonus/nice to haves, and the cover letter last. Most of the cover letters I see are total garbage, so I mostly use them as an assessment of whether a candidate knows where to find the spell check button. I’ve never had anyone missing skills write a good cover letter to convince me to interview them anyway, but if I ever did get a fantastic cover letter, I’d push them to at least a phone interview stage as long as they met the basic requirements for federal employment – even if they aren’t right for what I’m hiring for, there’s always a need for engineers who write well.

  100. Jason Green*

    Good afternoon,

    My name is Jason and I graduated last year with a Public Relations degree. My main goal is to focus on the media/entertainment world and hopefully do PR for a big entertainment company one day. It’s been a little over a year since I graduated and I’ve yet to find a any sort of PR job. I live right next to New York City and I’ve been applying there constantly but nothing has stuck.

    Right now I work in customer service just to pay the bills but I haven’t gained any experience in the field I want to be in. On the side I manage a website where I talk about the entertainment field, such as movies, as a way to build myself up. I’m definitely going to continue applying to what I want to do but I’m worried these companies won’t take me because of my lack of real world experience.

    Are there any tips or recommendations that can be provided?

    Thank you,
    Jason

    1. Diddly*

      Volunteering that involves PR. Are there further courses you can take in PR? Social Media seems to be the big new thing as does Digital Marketing so courses demonstration of that seems useful.mBut with PR I think you also deal with a journalistic aspect – press releases etc.
      So any journalism courses you can take/work experience at local newspapers/volunteering etc.
      Also informational interviews – ask PR experts what they’d recommend you’d do.

    2. Felicia*

      I am in PR and it’s a rough field. It’s unfortunately a field where you have to do internships. Usually more than one. Often 3-4. Especially in the entertainment field. Sometimes they’re paid, usually they’re not. What i did was i did the part time ones, and had a flexible customer service job to work around it. There are a lot of general communications volunteer opportunities (i did one for the MS Society, and the Cancer Society), do as many of those as you can . I’m sure you thought of this, but don’t focus so much on movies/entertainment etc for your first job. I know people who work in PR in those areas, and it’s a tough field in an even tougher industry. You also, similarly to journalism, need to prove you can write, so anything you can do to get clippings (a lot of places have web content writing). Hope that helps! And good luck! I looked 2 years post graduation without anything but i was volunteering/doing internships the whole time.

    3. Ad Astra*

      Keeping a blog is good. You should also get really, really good at social media — especially Twitter — if you aren’t already. Follow interesting or relevant people for your own edification, and if you’re tweeting interesting stuff yourself, hopefully some of them will follow you back and you can build your following.

      There are lots of nonprofits that could use some PR help on a part-time, volunteer basis. That would be a great way to gain some experience without quitting your job that pays the bills.

      Did you do any internships in college?

  101. MaryMary*

    I have a question/dilemma about job titles. I work for a small company, and I’m transitioning from a project-based role that half internal, half external into a client facing role where I will have my own accounts. Because I have experience in some specialized areas but less experience in some of the day-to-day account management, I’m going to be in a transitional role for a year or two. I’ll have some account manager responsibilities, some account executive responsibilities, and some special expertise responsibilities. This role is specific to me and my circumstances.

    One of my managers (reporting to multiple managers is a post for another day) likes to make up titles and wants to call me Project Consultant and Client Manager. The other is advocating that I take an Account Manager title, because while I have some expertise the account managers don’t have, I am not currently proficient in everything in an account manager’s job description. He doesn’t want to upset the account managers (who are probably going to see this as me being promoted over them regardless), but I see it as a bit of a demotion since I currently earn more than an account manager does. I would rather either be a Teapot Consultant (more in line with the industry to include an area of consulting rather than just “project”) or Associate Account Executive to indicate that I’m not on my own yet. Having a combo job title is also really long and cumbersome, arnd a little confusing for clients. Thoughts?

  102. barefeet54*

    My schedule at work might be changed a little and I’m really frustrated because 1) it will mean an overall more unpredictable and hectic work week schedule, 2) will interfere with professional development type things in evening (think trainings, classes, etc, which my boss has encouraged me to pursue), 3) will interfere with personal hobby things… which I’m the most upset about but I also know it’s the one that matters least to my work. How can I bring it up with my boss in a way that focuses on the most valid 1 and somewhat valid 2??

    1. fposte*

      What is it that you want to happen? Are you asking not to have your schedule changed, or some compromise between the two? Do you understand the reason for the changes and could you propose dealing with those reasons in another way?

      Basically, if you’re going to bring it up, it should be because you have a request about what to do about it, not just to let her know you’re not happy about it. Additionally, I’d bring up classes only if there were a specific class you are taking or are planning to take in the immediate future, because otherwise it sounds like “I might totally take a class one day!”

  103. Anonsie*

    So uh. I have kind of an odd thing to deal with. I need a lot of storage space for my job. There’s a space next to my desk that could hold a cabinet and I really want/need one, but by boss denied my request for one because she said they were too expensive. There’s no other open storage around here, so instead I’ve just put some of the boxes of supplies in a neat (as neat as it gets) stack there on the floor. It’s a little nook so it’s out of the way and all. I’ve been doing this for, I don’t know, about a year?

    People keep coming by and asking why my things are on the floor, and when I try to just brush it off with “we don’t have enough storage space” they’ll ask why I haven’t just ordered a cabinet, or tell me to order one since the space is the right size. A few times they’ve kind of gone on about it, and I’ve just said something like “you’re right, I should!” to move on. The thing is then of course I never have one after that so I’m getting some more probing questions about why not. My boss sits very close to me, and my gut says not to mention she won’t order one to people but especially not where she’ll hear me say it. It’s not that the cost isn’t in the budget or anything, it’s an overall political thing about expense sizes and staff prestige that we have around here.

    I’m thinking about it again because I have to get even more boxes of stuff soon (I have to keep a lot of supplies that are not generally stocked on hand as part of my job and now there’s a new thing we need to have around) that will have to go next to my desk with the others. Is having boxes around weird enough that I should start pressing for the cabinet again or what? I don’t want to keep having to have this conversation with people.

    1. OriginalYup*

      I’d trying restarting the conversation with a question about cost. “Boss, you mentioned that cabinet X was too expensive. How much do I have to work with? I need something to keep the supplies organized, and I can look for a refurbished cabinet if I know what the budget is.”

      1. Sadsack*

        This is a good idea. And answering with, “It’s not in our budget,” in the meantime seems to be correct, since your manager says you can’t afford it. Building milk crate cubes sounds better than what you have going on.

        1. Anonsie*

          Well. What she said exactly was that they cost too much and didn’t think it was worth the price. Plus the people commenting are typically people who work with our budgets enough to know it’s possible.

      2. Anonsie*

        We have to order these types of things (essentially furniture) through a specific supply chain in the org, so the prices and types we can get are set in stone.

        When I was turned down the first time, they said they would/I could see if there was a spare one floating around (which happens sometimes) but I’ve never managed to claim one.

        1. AnotherFed*

          Without knowing how expensive these things are or if you have particular locking/security requirements it has to meet, is it worth it to just buy one for yourself to make the questions stop?

          1. Anonsie*

            ~$100 and it’s a legal requirement that most of my documents be locked up (with only select people having key access) at all times. So the one cabinet I do have that could fit this stuff is full of those documents and has to be kept locked at all times since I can’t put them anywhere else as a compliance thing. It also means I can’t keep the supplies in there because then no one else can access them. These supplies don’t need to be kept under lock like that, though, I am actually running out of room in my locking cabinet so that’s also an incoming problem.

    2. Diddly*

      Could you try gumtree or free cycle to get one. Or ask your boss what a reasonable budget for one would be – see if you can get a secondhand one?

  104. BostonKate*

    Hi!

    I’m a 25-year-old female on the job hunt. For my next job, I really want to settle into a place and stay there for 5-10 years. Also, in that 5-10 year plan, is a family (probs more in the 4-5 year range).

    Maternity leave is a benefit I’m obviously interested in. However, I have no idea what constitutes as a good or bad policy. What should I look for? What should I ask about?

    Thanks!

    1. Kyrielle*

      Assuming you’re in the US:

      Keep your eye on company size, first – you want a company that’s big enough to fall under FMLA. (And if your state has additional coverage, which I know California and Oregon do, make sure it falls within those guidelines if you want the additional coverage.) If the company isn’t that large, look to make sure that they offer those benefits even though they don’t have to.

      Additional things that are nice: paid leave for part or all of the period (but this is very rare, IMX – other than funded by your vacation/sick balances, which most places will do), additional leave for well-child care after FMLA leave is exhausted for birth and new-baby time (mandated under Oregon, not sure about other states, but not mandatory with just FMLA). In general, a little flexibility time-wise is a good thing, though I never needed a ton of it. Any additional family-friendly benefits are a good sign (for example, the company I now work for will actually put $X into the child care flex spending account for you if you make less than $Y – I’ve never seen nor heard of that before, but I take it as a good sign that the company is family friendly, which it does seem to be!).

      A room to pump, if you plan to do that or are considering it – again, required to provide, but I think only for employers above a certain size.

      If you can tell whether they provide required benefits gladly or grudgingly – you want a place that provides them gladly, that won’t Mommy-track your career just because you’ve had a baby. That’s where “family friendly benefits” that aren’t required are helpful, even if that specific benefit isn’t one you’d use – I gather that sometimes places offer those but aren’t great to people who use them, but in general their presence signals that you’re in a better position.

    2. Student*

      With due respect, it doesn’t make much sense to base your current job selection on the maternity leave benefits when you expect that to be something you need 5 years from now. Lots can happen in 5 years – major changes in company healthcare policy, major changes in federal laws about leave policies, and major changes in your life plan (both on purpose or due to changing circumstances). You won’t even know the maternity leave benefits of a job until you get an offer, in most cases.

      It makes more sense to worry about maternity leave when you’re a bit closer to having a baby.

      Instead, the goal of finding a job with 5-10 year stability is a goal that is more practical.. You could start by looking for companies with a track record of stability. You could look for jobs that are local anchors – major businesses in the area. You could go into government services. You could look for companies that do things that are likely to be around long-term; medical industry, shipping, food/agriculture, billing services, schools, construction, all sorts of things. However, it is getting very unusual to stay at a job for many years.

      If you care more about staying in the same location than about staying in the same job, then just go to any major city.

      1. Chickaletta*

        I disagree. As someone who got burned by a company who didn’t offer FMLA and wasn’t obliged to, it really, really sucks to be let go for having a baby. The US is the only developed country IN THE WORLD that does not make maternity leave mandatory and where it is still legal to fire a woman for having a baby. If some is planning to start a family within the next five years in the US then yes, they should to be concerned about this and I think the OP is being responsible for thinking this through.

  105. Mockingjay*

    Meeting Minutes update! (I am going to write a book.)

    So, I declined participation (minutes taking) in this week’s dog and pony show due to workload. The Government Project Lead holds a lot of these to provide status to its two sponsors, and to show off the project to other Government agencies. In reality, I am not supposed to support these meetings as they are outside the scope of our contracted work. I am on task for technical meetings, which have a direct impact on the documents I create (software guides and related). The new Admin Assistant (hired a few months ago) is supposed to handle minutes for management meetings.

    For this week’s show, the Project Lead requested tech writer support to back up the Admin, in case she missed anything. After 6 months, he still considers her “in training.” As I was unavailable, my coworker was stuck with the unhappy duty. We both made it clear to our Team Lead that the Admin is to be the primary note taker for this event, she will produce the minutes, and his notes will be used only to corroborate or correct the minutes. We were emphatic because when dual note takers are present, she doesn’t write anything down. [Why should she? The Super Tech Writers are here!]

    [For what it’s worth, I like the Admin, personally. She was hired to fill an obvious need for the Project Lead; her duties had been dumped on the tech writers (not our choice) when the previous Admin left. But she works for another company on the project team, so I can’t train her or have a say in her performance.]

    Well, the dog and pony show goes on. As predicted, she took a few cursory notes on a pad, then resorted to playing with her phone out of boredom while sitting next to the Project Lead. Now, this particular show was put on to give status to one of our sponsors. This customer funds half our program, to the tune of 6 zeros after the first few digits. The rest of the engineering and project staff were aghast at her behavior.

    After the meeting, the Admin asked my colleague to send her the draft minutes so she could add in her notes (what notes?). No, she is to provide the minutes and colleague will review them. She whined to the Project Lead, and he says, colleague is to write the minutes. Team Lead intervenes, suggests they meet and collaborate. Too bad colleague is tied up for the rest of the week and can’t meet.

    The entire situation is getting ridiculous. The Project Lead is going overboard on personal services (those of you in the fed contracting world know what this is). Not every meeting requires official minutes, and we have WAY TOO MANY meetings, far more than could ever be covered. Fortunately, I had a conversation (not a meeting, haha) with several of the Team Leads; they are going to speak to the Project Lead and get this resolved, because they need full-time tech writing support dedicated to technical tasks and deliverables.

    Tune in next week…

    1. Helen of What*

      I’m amazed at how absurd this has gotten. How difficult is it to hold an employee accountable for deliberately not completing an assignment? Gah, madness!

    3. Amber Rose*

      Could you invest in like, a tape recorder? Then notes and minutes can be created later.

      Not that note taking is hard. Yeesh.

    4. Blue Anne*

      I… what? What is even going on in her head? More importantly, what’s going on in Project Lead’s head?

      1. Mockingjay*

        She is one of the Chosen Ones. I am not.

        Ironic that I was nearly fired for not taking minutes during a management meeting last Fall. (I thought I got an invite because he wanted status on deliverables – silly me.) She got a mild rebuke.

  106. Sunshine Brite*

    I’m so frustrated today. I’m not even sure where it’s all coming from. I know therapy this morning took it out of me. I just hit some level of stress and all my clients are vulnerable and need things now and I have to go faster and keep pushing through I know. My phone won’t stop ringing and it’s a new phone that I haven’t had time to play with so I have no idea how to turn it on silent. I have my first mentee (!) which I’m excited about, I like training, he’s great, but they aren’t giving him the super easy cases I got to see at first so I feel like I’m spending more time with him unraveling complexities than otherwise. Which means my cases are still sitting there.

    1. Sunshine Brite*

      I suppose my question is, what are your best tips when you want to run away from your desk screaming for the weekend?

      1. Jillociraptor*

        Oof, that’s tough. You need to break through the chaos and impose some order. First, take 10 minutes to figure out how to silence your phone, or just turn it off with a commitment to check your messages at a specific time. Then ignore it until that time.

        Then pick three things in your case files that you can resolve, and do it.

        Then pick one thing you can help your mentee resolve, and set him on his way to do it.

        It won’t feel like enough. It probably won’t be enough. But if you don’t pick a small number of things to do, you’ll just spin your wheels and not get anything done. So try to feel okay about things falling through the cracks today.

        Good luck. Those days are tough. But the moment will pass and it will be the weekend soon!

      2. AnotherFed*

        Take a time out and go do something that will let you get rid of the screaming feeling – rip creeper vines out of your garden, take it out on a punching bag, go lock yourself somewhere silent and just hang, whatever.

        Once you’re steadier, look hard at what all is on your plate and figure out which are the 2-3 most critical things to get done and then do them. Celebrate. Then, look at the next most important things and work on them. Rinse, lather, repeat.

  107. the gold digger*

    Just found out a friend was fired for violating the computer usage policy. Short of someone looking at porn at work, has this reason ever been used legitimately?

    I worked with this friend for a year and a half and know she is stellar. We were all so excited when we hired her and she accomplished a ton.

    Then our rather ineffective boss changed the reporting structure so my friend reported to someone who had been a peer. The peer/new boss is very non-confrontational and rather than deal with issues, just does not discuss them.

    Then the boss retired and was replaced by someone on another continent who works remotely.

    The whole thing makes me angry because the peer/new boss (who is also my friend) didn’t have the guts to address the issues. If my friend was really so awful, then why didn’t they put her on a PIP?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      If my friend was really so awful, then why didn’t they put her on a PIP?

      Because this was probably a pretext. Or they’re just a horrible manager, and think that blindly following rules for the sake of rules is “effective management”. As I always say, they should have been looking at her productivity and responsiveness, and if either of those were an issue, they should have tried to work with her on those instead of worrying about the “why”. Just because someone does not view non-work-related web sites on their work computer does NOT mean that they’re accomplishing anything for the company.

      1. justcourt*

        I agree that it was probably a pretext. The reasonable managers I’ve known don’t mind if employees occasionally slack off/go on the internet so long as it’s not excessive and their work is good.

        Unless this manager is a real stickler and really fired her for misusing her computer, there’s probably no way to know why she was really fired.

    2. Bekx*

      If they are downloading music/movies/software….I think someone at one of my old jobs did that.

      1. Bekx*

        Sorry, that was in reply to :

        “Just found out a friend was fired for violating the computer usage policy. Short of someone looking at porn at work, has this reason ever been used legitimately?”

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      You probably know more about the situation than I do, so I can’t comment on this particular situation, but I will say that in theory (not directly related to your friend’s firing) that there are many technological things you can do, apart from looking at porn at work, that could be immediately fire-worthy without a PIP. I could see hacking into payroll’s records (assuming you don’t actually work for any finance division of the company), conducting a denial-of-service attack using company resources, or exposing sensitive personal company (or customer) information to the public… as all fire-worthy offenses.

      Again, not specifically talking about your friend here—you’re closer to the situation, so if your friend is being fired for a BS reason, it’s probably a BS reason—but I will say I’ve seen at least one situation in which a co-worker seemed to be a great person and an excellent worker, and he got fired for stealing from the company. There was no big announcement “So-and-so is stealing from the company.” They let him go quietly. Things like that can happen.

      2. Windchime*

        Where I work, all it takes is looking at a medical record that you don’t need to be looking at as a part of your work duties. People have been fired for looking at their husband’s test results, for instance. Or just generally snooping. It happens, and usually there is just a brief email that says, “Sansa Stark is no longer with [our company name]. We wish her well in her future endeavors.” That’s it. There is no grace period and no PIP, because everyone signs a confidentiality pledge annually and everyone knows the rules.

    5. Graciosa*

      Without more detail, it’s hard to know whether or not this was truly outrageous (although I still disapprove of managers who are afraid to manage with actual – gasp – conversations with their employees).

      My own history may be coloring my perspective here, as I know of one situation where Previous Employer fired an IT guy who was using the company servers to host a porn site. Yes, HOST. And I do think the firing was correct, even without a warning beyond the general business-computers-are-for-business-use policy. Really, who does not know that you don’t host porn at work (unless that’s actually the job)?

      There are problems that don’t merit a PIP because the person’s judgment is so bad for doing the Bad Thing the first time that saying Don’t Do the Bad Thing seems pretty ridiculous, and will probably only lead to discovering the Next Bad Thing the person will do which isn’t a violation of the PIP because who would have imagined this kind of behavior in the first place?

      If this was just too much web-surfing on break, however, I agree that there should have been a discussion first.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Wow. That’s… wow. I kind of admire that guy’s nerve. I have worked for a tech company where Bossman didn’t mind giving folks a little server space to host person projects/pages if they asked nicely, but…. wow, a porn site? That’s kind of amazing.

        I’m also reminded of a friend who is an excellent IT freelancer. He was recently called in about a job at a gay porn site. Went in, interviewed, he was their favorite candidate, he loved the environment and thought it would be an awesome place to work, and the work itself would be technically interesting. Then he got their offer – about a third less than his usual (substantial) pay.

        Apparently it wasn’t that they didn’t value his skills appropriately, but that unlimited access to all of their gay porn was such a huge perk for so many of their workers that they had gotten into the practice of relying on it as part of the “salary & benefits” package.

        1. "Peekaboo." said Mink.*

          The implications of this are … ewwww. I could be wrong, but I don’t think I’d wanna use the bathrooms there.

          Or … were they providing access to the porn, or access to the porn actors? No, seriously: a few years ago some porn outfit bought the San Francisco Armory (which is a sizable building) and rebuilt the interior and it’s got studios and offices and servers and God knows what else in it. My understanding is that they’re very professional about maintaining closed sets while shooting (ie, it’s not like people wander the hallways naked) and the place is run like a real business. But I don’t believe they make any effort to separate the “talent” from the people in marketing or the folks down in IT, etc. Which leads me to wonder how well they pay, and do people accept a lower salary because of the unique ‘perks’ of this business?

    6. Observer*

      I think that, as the others have said, the actual transgression matters. I can think of a few scenarios that could lead to this kind of reaction.

      But, this is a great example of why it’s important to make sure that management is transparent.

      1. the gold digger*

        Yeah, I asked her what part of the policy she violated. She didn’t know. They told her they wanted to audit her computer and sent her home, then called her to tell her she was fired. I worked there two and a half years and nobody ever audited my computer.

        1. Windchime*

          I wonder if someone was using her computer/credentials to look at something they shouldn’t be (porn, confidential stuff, etc).

        2. Observer*

          She should probably push them on this. Of course, a lot depends on the state you are in, whether there is a contract, etc. But it’s definitely true that if someone gets fired for violating a policy that is commonly violated, then that’s an issue. At minimum, it means she would be eligible for unemployment because it’s no longer really considered “for cause”. And, if there is any reason to believe that there is illegal discrimination or retaliation, it’s also going to come into play.

    7. Tris Prior*

      This happened to a friend of mine. She was fired for personal use of the Internet during work hours – which was against company policy. But, all of her co-workers were doing the same thing (one guy was apparently downloading movies illegally?) and none of them were fired, just her. She got no warnings at all beforehand.

      It turned out that there were some really nasty politics going on behind the scenes and they wanted her out for reasons that really had nothing to do with her performance. Since they already knew that everyone was violating this policy, it was an easy enough thing to get her for, I guess. And she couldn’t argue it because, like everyone else, she was sometimes going on facebook, etc. at work.

      1. the gold digger*

        I think that’s what happened here. My friend makes a lot less than the guy they hired to replace me, even though she has a lot more responsibility and has accomplished a lot more. This guy makes 30% more than I did, too. (And he has done almost nothing in the year he has been there – I increased revenues dramatically in my first year.)

        My strategy was to find a new job. My friend’s approach has been to argue for a raise. I guess the powers don’t like that.

    8. Silver*

      Someone in IT at a local public service org was fired for running a bit-coin mining operation using the company’s servers. So you know, there are lots of reasons these kinds of policy violations can be legit.

  108. Beaker*

    I’m 26 and I’ve been working at the same company for 8 years (as of yesterday!). I started right after high school under an internship program that paid for me to go to the community college in our town and obtain my 2-year Business Degree. I haven’t really changed positions except for my attempt at being a supervisor for a year (turns out it was more like babysitting and I determined I wasn’t ready for it yet). I’m in a position I excel at and don’t plan on leaving any time soon since I feel lucky to have such a stable job with great benefits. My anniversary got me thinking that if something happened in the future, will having only worked for one company hinder me if I ever have to look for a new job?

    1. Diddly*

      Unless you haven’t grown, improved, kept up with the industry and have just generally stagnated then I can’t see it impacting on you. Although some people value flexibility and the ability to adapt quickly to a new role – you might want to add other activities to your life which involve dealing and communicating with different people and dealing with unfamiliar office set-ups – volunteering etc, but not necessarily important.
      But if the supervisory role was like babysitting I can’t see how you weren’t ready for it? I think you would need to show growth to outsiders and taking on positions such as this would help you.

    2. Judy*

      If I’m reading your post right, I’d be more concerned about only having a 2 year degree than being at the same company for 8 years. When companies were downsizing in the last decade, my co-workers that didn’t have “that piece of paper” to back up their skills fared much worse. I would look at my career goals and decide if the path I want involves a 4 year degree, and if so make plans. Credentials help future proof your career, especially the BA/BS, for many jobs whether right or wrong, it is the gatekeeper.

    3. Ad Astra*

      Working for one company for a long time doesn’t seem like a problem, but it sounds like you might not be taking on increased responsibility or learning to skills. If that’s the case, you’ll need to find a way to push yourself and reach new goals.

      I get that not everyone’s cut out to be a manager, but are there other possibilities for future promotions? What about new certifications? Or more complicated projects? Or bigger clients?

  109. Carrie in Scotland*

    So a slightly amusing story via one of my co-workers.

    An application form for a course is submitted, with two referees. The applicant selected two deceased people. As in, Mr Lovelock, deceased 2012, Mr Zed deceased 2013.

    Who does this!?

    1. TheLazyB*

      Someone who knows those guys are still alive and REALLY doesn’t want them contacted?!

      I dunno. Someone who doesn’t get the concept of references, I guess!

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        They’re definitely not living.

        Apparently the applicant put them there so that their background work (e.g. editor on a book or something) could be checked.

        Co-worker did eventually get a living referee….

    4. EvilQueenRegina*

      And I thought the one my mum got once giving “David ? (Company no longer exists)” was bad. That one…words fail me.

  110. TheLazyB*

    I am so frigging tired. (This will turn into a work question by the end I promise.)

    I started working full time in June after working part time since 2012 (a year maternity before that). I have 3 hour+ trips every other week (that’ll probably calm down a bit in a month or two to once a month) and my small child wakes up crazy early and disturbs me through the night about half the time as well.

    I fairly regularly go to bed very early, usually go to bed on time these days, have a lie in one day at the weekend, and I am still totally wiped out. It feels like it’s never gonna get better.

    I was doing online training today and find myself having microsleeps. It’s not good.

    My inclination is to tell my line manager that I am struggling with this, that I’m trying to do something about it, and to check in with her when it’s better (…. hopefully soon) and to try and build a bit more down time in. And to sleep on the train (not expected to work on the train but I usually do some reading or note taking about meetings or my development).

    Is there anything else I could be expected to do? Anything else that might help? My line manager happens to be the only other person on my team with a small child so hoping she will understand but still nervous to bring it up :(

    I wish the kid was old enough to be bribed to stay in bed. I would totally do that ;-/

    1. Diddly*

      I’d have to be annoying and ask you specifically what your schedule is – also how long the train journey is? Is the train journey your daily commute?
      Also how old is your child?
      Naps can make things worse as you might not get the right amount of REM sleep to feel fully refreshed, so would depend on your train journey and testing that out whether that would work.
      Is there a pattern to when your child wakes up/ a reason?
      If there’s a pattern there might be a way round it – as in basing your sleep schedule round it, maybe drastic but could be worth it if you’re this exhausted. For instance sleeping in two separate sessions of 4 hours?
      Equally similar to the person earlier who was burned out – are you getting enough downtime to yourself to feel refreshed? Could you be possibly on your way to burn out – perhaps you should talk to a doctor as well. And if your supervisor is sympathetic definitely talk to them, but be careful how you frame it I guess, maybe say that adapting to full-time work is taking longer than you thought with your child, could you slow down or delegate your responsibilities.
      Could you go back to part-time for a while?

      1. TheLazyB*

        No the train journey are specific trips, either day trips or overnight. The train takes 2.5 or 3 hours with a journey to the station of 30-60 mins and 30 mins at other end.

        Usual morning – get up between 6 and 6.15, leave house at 7.20, drop child at daycare with DH, get lift to work with a very lovely friend who works near me and who drops her child off at the same nursery at the same time. This will change in September as they both start school. Start work at 8. Theoretically leave at 4, actually leave 4.15-5.00ish, as even though I’ve done my hours by 4 it feels like skiving to leave that early. (This is part of the problem.) Bus and walk to nursery, pick up small child, bus home. Make tea, as DH gets home too late to :( Get home 5.20-5.45 ish, ideally get small child into bed by 7 (hysterical laughter here).

        The small child waking isn’t that predictable unfortunately. I wish it was.

        Haha yeah I am already burning out. I miss running.

        Can’t go back to part time, it’s a completely new job. I didn’t really want to work full time but love the job and am glad I have. I’m still learning so it’s not a huuuuge prob to do my induction a bit slower but I’m not really wanting to ask for accommodation just to give her a heads up that it’s taking me longer than i thought to adjust. They knew about my son and me having worked part time before offering me the job.

        2. Diddly*

          I don’t have a child so I don’t know how long it takes to get them ready in the morning, but perhaps you & your husband could alternate in the morning – gain some sleep.
          Is there a possible way for you not to go drop off your child with your husband and take bus into work nearby – save some time. I’m not a morning person, I usually shower in the evening and take 20-30 mins to get ready so 6 sounds early to me.
          I’m sorry I think I can only give you boring regular sleeping advice – no TV screens/smartphones/iPad something like two hours before you go to bed. Make sure your room is cool and dark, take a hot shower/bath before hand – helps with morning routine as well. Perhaps get your child involved in this. Maybe later time for child to go to bed as well – maybe 9? If they slept through that’s 8 hours. And from 7 to 9 gives you time to help them wind down prepare for bed. – sorry that’s all I’ve got.

          1. TheLazyB*

            DH always gets DS ready. He gets ready quicker than me!

            I get in quicker getting the lift (and the human contact helps tbh – I hotdesk and don’t have a team and it helps counteract the loneliness.

            DS still needs like 11.5 hours sleep *insert horrified face here*

            The stopping electronics earlier thing, yep will be stricter with that. I don’t have them in my bedroom any more but yeah need to go further I guess.

            Thank you, it helps me think it through to discuss these things.

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      Is there any way you could potentially train your child to sleep better? I don’t have kids so am at a loss here. Or: you/husband take it in turns with waking child?

      Fwiw, I’m finding it difficult to sleep because of the light nights and feel knackered all the time recently. Invest in some blackout curtains/lining for your curtains?

      1. TheLazyB*

        I’ll start putting towels over the curtains again actually, that has helped before. Obvious solutions really aren’t obvious when you’re too tired to think ;-/ thank you.

        The child’s sleep could be improved but not by any means I want to try while we’re still getting used to being apart. Maybe in a few months when we’re more used to it.

    3. Judy*

      Depending on the age of the child, have you talked with your doctor about a medical workup? I’ve had both anemia and low vitamin D since my kids were born.

      I’d also suggest if your’re not exercising regularly to try that. Even if it is just a walk around the block after dinner.

      My sister took an analog alarm clock and blocked out from midnight to 7am and told her kids to play quietly in his room until he could see the arm. He was in the age range of your child at that time. I taught my kids that until it said “7” there, to play quietly in their room.

      1. TheLazyB*

        I do have a vit d supplement and it’s summer here so prob not that but it’s still worth checking. In fact yeah the anaemia thing, it’s worth looking into. I always presume it’s just personal failure when I’m exhausted rather than a reasonable response to something.

        I think lack of exercise isn’t helping, I am faaaaaar more sedentary than in my last job, and I walked a lot in the afternoons before. And I want to run! I am hoping once I get used to it I can shoehorn that in as I do think that would really, really help.

        I have a gro clock which has stars until morning time when the sun rises. It does not work on my small child. Will try again in a few months though. Maybe when he’s a bit older he’ll get it… I hope.

        1. Judy*

          I’ve even taken to walking on 20 minutes of my lunch hour. I keep shoes, socks, a shirt and deodorant in my desk, I usually wear pants and a blouse to work. I take the socks and shirt home on the weekends to wash.

          Unless it’s a hunger thing, I’d just keep saying “Is the sun up on your clock? Let’s go check. No, look, it’s not. What does it mean if the stars are still on?” Him:”Mumble, Mumble, I should stay in my room and play with my cars.” This, of course implies that the child is coming to you when he wakes up. (You might be surprised some day to hear him having that conversation to himself…)

          1. TheLazyB*

            Yeah I should get out at lunch times. It would help.

            He goes to sleep in his own bed and comes in to us in the night, so he’s already there when he wakes up. This has worked for us so far, but I’m ready to start working towards stopping it now – but like I say when he’s seeing so much less of me now I want him to have time to get used to it first :-/ also there’s the whole thing of it’ll help in the long run but in the short run things get harder! Fun.

      2. Lia*

        Adding my suggestion to get exercise, and while you get a medical workup, have them look at your thyroid levels. Hypothyroidism is very common in new moms and can be easily treated.

        1. TheLazyB*

          Oh good suggestion. I hope it’s not that but yeah worth checking.

          Thank you everyone I do appreciate all the suggestions.

      3. TheLazyB*

        Just went for a run. Bloody hard, it’s been ferages (technical term hehe) but although I hated every minute, I also loved every minute.

        Gonna try for a tiny run most days this week, because it’ll make me happy and make it seem more do-able.

  111. silvertech*

    I just need to vent: I was supposed to be laid off at the end June, but I now face the very real possibility of the end date being pushed back to mid August. Considering that today my client spent half an hour berating me and my team on the phone, blaming us for things we have no control over, I’m pretty desperate. If I end up working for 45 days more, I’ll be in for an extremely rough ride. I’m wondering what can I do to avoid going crazy…

    :(

    1. danr*

      Hopefully, you’ve started your job search. If you find a job before the layoff happens, take it. Don’t worry about the company you’re leaving behind. As for making through the extra time, just relax. Use your time to be a good worker and get good references.

      1. Steve G*

        +1 as I’ve kvetched before, I was laid off at the end of last year and had a 2 month transition period to pass stuff to the new company. Yes it was very, very stressful. I complained about the stress and the unfairness level and got many work-from-home days and “permission” to job hunt during the day (like I cared what they thought at that point, but I digress). I also explained that it didn’t make sense for me to still be dealing with the difficult problems and people and customers and situations if I was leaving. You know, I couldn’t fish, I had to teach how to fish. My management was totally with me. Of course I was saying this for selfish reasons (thinking “you want to get rid of me, then you deal with all of the crap”), but it was true regardless of the intent.

    2. Diddly*

      Seems weird to change your lay-off date, if you can survive without the job and they’d already told you when you were losing it, then I’d leave. I mean you can say I made plans based on what you told us was the end of my job.
      Don’t lose our mental health to a job that’s going to kick you out anyway (unless you can’t afford to.) I which case a friend find sticking pins in a soft toy – in unpleasant places. Satisfying

  112. TheLazyB*

    So, my new job is in evaluation. Totally new area to me. Is there anyone here that works in this area?

    Are there any online resources to learn about the field?

    It’s really hard work, but I am loving it :)

      1. TheLazyB*

        It’s evaluation in its widest sense i’m asking about, but: government evaluation of public services inspections in the uk.

  113. marina*

    Is it better to resign on a Monday or a Friday? If one is preferable, but you can only resign in person on the other day of the week, is it still better to do it in-person?

        1. ACA*

          Then it really doesn’t matter, I think, especially if you’re giving more than two weeks. If you have a weekly one-on-one meeting with your boss, you might use that opportunity. Though as Dynamic Beige says below, if you think your boss might take it badly, then Friday could be a good idea.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I don’t think it matters that much. But do it in person if at all possible.

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      Have you witnessed anyone giving notice at your company and being walked to the door? If so, you might want to resign on a Friday (or Thursday night) — depending on how your pay periods go. That’s what I did, I knew once I said I had gotten a new job, that would be my last day, so I did it on a Friday and had a nice relaxing weekend.

      Otherwise, I think it depends on how surprised you think your boss might be. If they expect two weeks or longer, it’s probably not going to make much difference. But if you have reason to think that your boss might be upset or blindsided by the news, I’d go for a Friday as well, to give them the weekend to think over their next steps and lower the heat.

    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      Definitely in person. As a manager, I’d rather receive the resignation on a Friday afternoon so I can stew over the weekend and come back with a professional attitude and a plan on Monday.

  114. super anon*

    so, i’m in my new job and loving it so far – but i’ve been told that i’ll be sitting in an open plan office with a group from our satellite office who are a bit dysfunctional. things i have been told may impact me:

    – people will cry if criticized on their work in any way, shape or form;
    – there is major resentment about the move to the new location;
    – there is major resentment about the dept I work in, as another dept merged with this one, and the employees from the old dept seem to still be bitter about the merge;
    – people are very passive aggressive, and will hold a grudge against you forever;
    – they are also very judgmental of your outward appearance
    – two of the employees have major strain between them. one of them is significantly older than the other, and is also the older one’s boss. the older one refuses to take any direction from the younger, as she is older and believes she doesn’t have to listen to/take direction from someone who is her junior;
    – finally, there is a lot of gossip (to me this is the worst one! who has time for gossip at work?).

    so! this sounds like it has the potential to be every horrific aam letter rolled into one package. i get the feeling it may be worse for me because i am significantly younger than everyone else in the office, but it’s okay. i already have an arsenal of aam advice to get me through if things really are as bad as i’ve been led to believe, and if not, it will be a pleasant surprise.

    anyway! that was long. open thread, please share with me your worst office stories to help me put my situation into perspective.

    1. Dasha*

      I want to hear bad office stories!!!!! I love these things on open thread Fridays.

      My worst office story..

      I worked at a place, low pay, no benefits, no time off, stressful job. It was a small company and the president of the company made us go around and give everyone a side hug EVERY morning. sooo weird. Then he’d make us go bowling and if you sucked and were on his team he would yell at you. Also, the bowling was every Thursday night after work until like 10 pm, you weren’t paid for it, and if you didn’t go you would get serious crap for it. We also had to go to all these other crazy things together (camping, baseball games, etc). I got out of the camping because I was moving that weekend but seriously when I got a new job I was like I’M FREE I’M FREE I’M FREE

        1. afiendishthingy*

          hahaha yup. I once worked at a tiny family owned business and my boss’s management style was to yell at me for mistakes until I cried. And he had an 18 year old son who had learned from watching dad that it was cool for him to just bark orders at me. I do not miss that.

  115. Kay*

    In what way should I prepare for an internal interview that would be different to a normal interview?

    I just found out that I’m going to be asked to interview officially for a position in a different department. On the plus side, two separate managers and two directors are on my side, but on the downside, I’m not familiar with one or two platforms I’d be working with (yet!) and my direct manager would be in a different office with a pretty significant time difference.

    Any tips?

  116. Helen of What*

    Four months in, the job hunt is finally starting to get to me. I think things go really well until employers inevitably ask why I left my last company. I wasn’t given any specific reason for being “let go”, but it was implied that I wasn’t performing well enough. I feel like it’s an unfair black mark since I didn’t do anything horribly wrong. I made a few very minor mistakes, (minor enough that one CEO I interviewed with laughed them off when I gave him examples) and never received any warning that my job was on the line. (If I’d known, I would have taken a job offer I’d received literally two weeks before my firing. I turned it down simply because I wanted a M-F job and weekends were required. I would gladly give up my weekends now!) Everyone I worked with including the owner offered to be a reference, but it feels like I don’t even get to that stage.

    Mostly wanted to rant, but if anyone had tips on navigating a “fired for sort of not really cause” situation, I’m all ears!

    1. Helen of What*

      BTW, this was a job where one of my colleagues was so stressed and overworked that she was brought to tears a few times, the owner insulted current/former employees behind their backs, and which had sketchy financial practices. I wanted out, but on my own terms. Sigh.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Would it be appropriate in your situation to call your former employer and talk to them about this? For example:

      “I’m applying for jobs, and as you know, it comes up pretty frequently why I left my last job. I know that you all didn’t feel like it was a good fit, and I understand that. However, I get the impression we all agree that it wasn’t something egregious. I wanted to ask if you’d be willing to share with me what you would say if one of the places I’m applying calls you to ask why I was let go. I don’t want to be dishonest with potential employers, and I want to make sure that I’m matching up with what you would be able to verify”.

      You’d have to have the right relationships (and have had a smooth exit) to make this work. And it might be a bad idea for a number of reasons. But if things are smooth between you, I might take the risk and ask.

      1. Helen of What*

        I know this is an option, but I have really horrible anxiety about it and would rather not, haha. I might have to buck up and do it. I’m also considering asking my old colleague what exactly they told the staff after I was sent home. Something would have been announced since I worked with literally everyone.

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          If you have a good friend like that, that might actually be a good option – or at least a starting place. Depending on her relationship with management she might also be able to ask for you (it would have to be pretty casual, and not unusual for her to have a non-essential conversation with management – or she’d have to be pretty senior)

        2. BRR*

          As a fellow sufferer of anxiety you might just need to suck it up and do it to remedy your situation.

          Is there anybody from the job that can be a great reference? At my last job I did A and B and had two manager. I was fired for A and applied for jobs only doing B. Manager B loves me but was overruled and served as a great reference.

          Then you could say something about how they said it wasn’t a good fit but you had no disciplinary measures taken and your reference Wakeen can attest to my good skills a,b, and c.

  117. Pennalynn Lott*

    How long should it take for a university to accept (or reject) an application from a transfer student? Is two months too long? I applied back on April 23 and my application status still says, “Thank you for your application to The University of Texas at Dallas. Your application is currently under review.” Is this a normal timeframe?

    1. Helen of What*

      It might be worth calling the admission dept and just asking what the timeframe for admissions is. When I applied to transfer, the college made an administrative error and checked that I was missing a required document, and I was not. My mom made me call and the VP of admissions was like “You’re in, we just lost this document, can you resend via fax or email?” I probably would have waited hopelessly if my mom hadn’t pushed!

    2. super anon*

      It really depends on the university and their process. I worked at a major university and applications open in October and close in January. People are accepted until late August, and it can take that long to get an acceptance, especially if you are missing documents that are needed for your application, etc. Also, here, depending on what level you are applying to and what dept, things can take longer or short amounts of time. Graduate studies runs on an entirely different schedule than Undergrad, or Medicine.

      Your best bet is to call the admissions office and ask them the status of your application.

  118. EvilQueenRegina*

    Just venting really. In a restructure where I got moved from Chocolate Kettles to Chocolate Teapots, they eventually realised they cut too many posts from Kettles and are having to recruit again. Well, I’ve come to the conclusion that they refused a post to Voldemort, because they have had to advertise three times for all these posts and there are still problems four months on including lots of quitting. So it’s ended up that I’ve had to spend half my week being pulled away from my own Teapots work to cover Kettles again, Teapots are more behind than I would like and are only set to get more behind since Emma and Ruby are off next week, Lily and Neal have this big conference, Kathryn is off the week after and it all just keeps coming in. The stupid thing is that our summer holiday is coming up when things would be quiet enough that I would have the capacity for it.

    It just annoys me a bit to think of the number of times I had to struggle alone in Kettles under ex-boss and now I find myself struggling to keep up with my own work because I’m getting pulled in to provide the help I was usually denied.

    1. Colette*

      That sounds frustrating. (It’s probably good they refused the post to Voldemort, though. He was probably just looking for kettles to turn into horcruxes.)

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        There was a post in my current team which we all thought got refused to Voldemort at one point since it went through four people in the space of a year, although the guy in that job now seems to want to stick out his year’s contract. Voldemort’s turned his attention to Kettles now instead.

  119. Looby*

    I had an interview this week with a recruitment company. I gave them the 2 references they asked for but then they said they would be contacting my last few employers anyway because they needed to confirm my employment details before I could be added to their system.

    To be honest, this wasn’t a red flag, but there had been a few yellow flags popping up with this company that I wasn’t even sure if it was worth it to keep going with the application process. I told them they could contact them if they needed to, but since it was so long ago, I didn’t have their contact details anymore.

    Since these employers weren’t my “official” references, was I under any obligation to give names & track down details for the recruiter to contact them? The people they wanted to contact were from temp jobs from 2012 that I haven’t spoken to since I finished. I couldn’t even tell you if my supervisors were still there! Plus they wanted to contact a former employer who I took to the Labour Board for unpaid wages. I told them the history with that employer and they told me they would still be contacting them! Somehow I don’t think I’ll be dealing too much with this company if it’s this difficult to get passed step 1.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      If they asked for this, you need to provide it or you will look like you are hiding something. It’s pretty normal and not unreasonable. If would be different if it was from 20 years ago, but 2012 is very, very recent and it’s reasonable that they want to verify what’s on your resume from the past few years. Especially if they just need to verify the basics, direct them to HR, which will have your records.

  120. QuestionsGalore*

    I’m interviewed recently for an internal transfer to another department (dept “A”) within the very large company I’m currently at. The day before, I was told on the phone that I got the job and, if I accepted, they would then send out the offer letter for me to sign. I told them that while I was very interested, but I was still waiting to hear back from other jobs I’ve already applied to. The hiring manager said that by they’d give me till Friday (today) to tell them if I want to move forward or not. If I say yes, then they would send the offer letter for review. If no, that’d be the end of it.

    (For background/stuff i didn’t say to the dept A hiring manager: one of the other jobs is for a different company and I’m still waiting for that hiring manager to get back from a business trip to schedule interviews which p, they’ve said, probably won’t take place till after 7/4. That job fits exactly with my career aspirations and might be a significant pay increase based on what I’ve researched online. If everything worked out, this is my #1 choice. The other job is for a different department (dept “B”) at my current company and I had a phone screen yesterday. At the end of that call, they are going to set up interviews. This job would be more interesting and challenging than dept A’s. I’d learn new skills and it’s totally different than my current job. This is my second choice. Dept A’s is really similar to my current job and a lateral move. Honestly, it’s not different enough from my current job and would feel like I’m just doing the same old thing for another year, after which I’d want to look for a new role. On top of that, I was told my salary and benefits don’t change. If something remotely better comes up, I’d take a different job over Dept A.)

    1. Was it ok that I told dept A hiring manager that I was waiting to hear back from other jobs when I didn’t have dept A’s offer letter yet?

    2. Should I have just told Dept A yes, let’s move forward straight off the bat, and then asked for a week or so to review the offer letter? That way I could stall and see how things play out with those other jobs? However, it’d be kinda weird to ask for such a long review period since it’s an internal transfer and was verbally told that my salary and benefits wouldn’t change.

    3. Since i’m really not inclined to take dept A’s offer anyways, I’m financially secure and I have time to keep searching, should I just tell dept A today that i don’t want to move forward? This way they don’t need to send me the offer letter and can quickly get someone else to fill the role?

    4. After I found out I got the job from dept A, I emailed the external company and told the manager there that I had an offer in hand, wanted to know how strong of a candidate I am and said that I still want to interview/work for them. I felt comfortable saying all of that since I got this job lead from my current coworker whose dad is the manager. Did i handle that appropriately too? Should I have not said anything to the manager, even if it was my coworker’s dad and I do have a great relationship with my coworker?

    First time in the position to play the field and not just settle for the first thing that pops up now that I’ve had a couple of years of professional experience. Don’t want to jeopardize my any future jobs either by saying the wrong thing to the wrong person. Thanks for reading my long situation. Advice appreciated!

    1. BRR*

      I feel like it’s weird to turn down an internal offer. I also feel like it’s weird to apply for an internal position you didn’t really want. What prompted you to apply for job a in the first place? Because it sounds like you shouldn’t have applied. Obviously that’s not helpful now.

      -If you didn’t know your salary would stay the same could you try and say you thought it was an advancement and since it’s lateral you’d prefer to stay where you are (clean that up a bit obviously).
      -I probably wouldn’t wait for external company unless you’re super content in your position (in case it doesn’t work out). It sounds like they’re way behind and it’s much riskier to hope for that.
      -I’m not sure by you’re letter but do you have an interview with B?

      I don’t really know. Basically I think it’s weird to apply for an internal position then reject it. I also don’t think you should do a short stint because a colleague recommended you. Please don’t thank me, this was no help at all.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Yeah there’s been quite a lot of discussion here about how it’s a Bad Idea to turn down an internal job offer :(

  121. Nynaeve*

    So Grand Maester Pycelle, the supervisor for our department, resigned after less than three months. To put this into context, this is the person no one in our department wanted hired, but the director held the position open for him for seven months. In his short tenure, Pycelle managed to alienate everyone in our department, annoy people in other departments, tick off IT, look out-of-touch in front of the deans, provide no focus, do no substantial work, and be nowhere to be found most of the day. At least we don’t have to figure out how to work with him? Some problems solve themselves.

    He told us his last day was Tuesday, then it was yesterday, then today, and now it’s back to Tuesday again. We can’t wait for him to finally actually be gone. He is eating those crackers like he owns the place.

    1. Artemesia*

      I celebrate with you. I have been in exactly this place with the bend over backwards to recruit the worst possible candidate because he has an in with the higher ups thing. You are lucky. One of ours not only stayed there soaking up resources and being useless for years but then later wrote a book in which he badmouthed the organization and the rest of us as do nothings with cushy jobs. (I was in an office next to his for awhile and could hear him braying all day long about how lazy people in our profession are — as he did nothing much and we all labored away on our projects.) He was one of the people that convinced me there was no such thing as karma.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Oh, I so want to know who this is, so I can torrent a pirated Kindle version of his book! :D

      2. Steve G*

        Wow, wrote a book on it?!?! Yeah, like companies just keep people around to look pretty, they don’t actually do things. Sounds like a classic “I don’t know what you do so you much do nothing situation”

      3. Nynaeve*

        It’s so funny that you say this. I was talking with my dad about this whole situation, and he said, “You could write a book about this. Maybe not a very good book.”

        1. Artemesia*

          I’ve tried to convince my daughter for years that she had a great roman a clef novel in her about the ridiculous employer she had for awhile. She writes beautifully and it would be as hilarious and awful as the The Devil Wears Prada; she tells me she has repressed it all.

    2. Steve G*

      OH wait, I think you posted about this before, right? I think I remember this story from here. Wow, 3 months? Nuts. Well at least he’s out!

      Reminds me of past past Co where 3 of the higher ups all worked from home from huge mansions in the same neighborhood of a very random suburb of a not-main city (sorry for the vagueness). One was a hothead, one was a dud and quit after a few months too. Well, I am glad we funded his mansion and travels and lovely lifestyle for those few months! This bothered quite a few people because we have offices in many major US cities like NY, and, you know, the peons spend every cent to move to near the office, why can’t the people who can afford even a commuter apartment get one or put effort into being more present.

      1. Nynaeve*

        Good memory, yes. It was a long rant because it was such a weird situation. It has not gotten less weird, but at least I can now reduce the situation to, “Well, that was a thing that happened. Now he’s gone, yay!”

  122. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    So, I’ve recently changed “my job”, the bulk of what I’m working on during a day. We’re launching a big new product line (so excited!) and I made it My Thing to head up. Pouring a lot into it.

    I took what I was doing, for the bulk of the day, previously and handed it over to someone else who is doing a great job.

    Here’s the thing that’s interesting:

    What I have been doing for the last few years has been mostly, incoming! incoming! INCOMING! (cue chopper sounds from M*A*S*H* ). Exhilarating, nerve wracking, micro deadlines, go go go.

    What I’m doing now is long range, with lots of pieces, for a late Sept launch.

    It’s………. interesting. I can compensate, because I’ve done this before successfully, but I have to go back to my long forgotten old tricks of making deadlines for myself, creating push push push periods, etc.

    What a change, yes?

    1. AnotherFed*

      I hear you – I’m pretty much firefighting with a small side of tactical planning (only the next few months, not far enough out to count as strategic planning) but that’s totally by choice. It sounds kind of boring and sad to basically know what the day/week/month will look like before it happens… except when it comes to planning vacations. It’s be nice to actually be able to plan for them!

      How do you handle that transition? I suspect that eventually, I’ll have to give up this kind of job…

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I think I’m best suited for, and happiest at, a firefighting kind of job. The higher the pressure and the faster the incoming, the sharper I am.

        I do love long range building of things, also, but it’s harder to be my best at that because I have to keep focusing myself. You don’t have to say, “Okay focus” or play tricks with yourself when there’s a 4 alarm fire blazing.

        Sooooo, I prepared myself with a wee bit of dread and a promise that it would be for X months. Basically, I’m laying the ground work now so we have lots more fires to fight, creating the “incoming!!” which will show up later this year.

        Many people can’t handle the fire fighting, they crack. For those of us that can, we probably should stick to it, as long as it is working for us.

        The vacation thing? That’s a SERIOUS component, even just hours off. I made plans with friends that I’ve been putting off forever last night, because I left the office at 3pm on Friday. This is something I never could do or would do in a June for years. So that’s my little treat to go along with this, making sure I take advantage of the perks during the non-firefighting season.

  123. Sparkly Librarian*

    Got my first of 3 performance reviews while I’m in the new hire probationary period. All “Fully effective” with a couple of “Exceeds expectations”. Take that, Imposter Syndrome!

    1. Artemesia*

      But by how much did you exceed expectations and were those expectations high enough? huh huh?

    1. fposte*

      Oh, that’s really interesting; thanks for the cite.

      I have some issues with the quiz, though, because I think my workplace scored as less civil than it is in practice; it seems to be based on a particular model of workflow and also to think civility and engagement are the same thing.

      1. Cristina in England*

        Yes you can tell the quiz originated from an academic study since it is so narrowly focused! It is interesting to view civility from that specific angle, as long as no one is suggesting that is the only angle.

  125. Wee*

    Does anyone here use To-Do lists? Do you have any suggestions on the best way to create one for work? I’ve been sending myself an email To-Do list every day (written in the body of the email). But a coworker tells me it’s a waste of email resources. Hadn’t heard that one before. It’s not like my box is clogged since I delete all unnecessary emails.

    1. fposte*

      If that’s a burden on your office servers, your office is in serious trouble. If that works for you, carry on, and the co-worker can go jump in a lake.

    2. Ad Astra*

      I do mine on paper. For some reason, I remember things better when I write them by hand. And then I have my list to work from all day.

      The best tip I ever learned was to write my to-do lists at the end of the day for the next day. That way you have your priorities set from the get-go, instead of trying to map out your day before the coffee kicks in. It’s made a big difference for me.

      1. Nutcase*

        I do this too. I have a list of tasks written down in my notebook. I add to them as soon as a new task is assigned to me and cross them off once they’re done. Once the page gets too messy I’ll rewrite it onto a new page, putting the more important tasks at the top. I tried keeping this all in a word document but having them all down somewhere physical lets me take the list to meetings where work is often assigned and I can always have it in front of me at my desk without taking up any screen real estate.
        If I leave for the day when I’m in the middle of one of these tasks I always leave myself a post it or another note giving myself the next few steps to get me going again.

  126. Rosey-briar*

    Hi everyone,

    Looking for assistance with jobs in education. I have an offer with a job working in a preschool but i am really interested in working with middle or high schoolers, or working in education administration, particularly in a independent school as thats where my experience is. Some people have advised i take the job as a preschool teacher to get experience and its an opportunity to meet educators and find new opportunities, but i am nervous to take a job teaching if im not going o be fully invested (doing a disservice to the students etc). I am applying to jobs in my realms but….
    1) what say you, educators of AAM?
    2) my biggest fear is that if i try to sub or get other work as a HS teacher without any experience that i will fail at classroom management/curriculum planning/etc… What is your advice on the best way to gain these skills (preferably in a setting other than a masters in Ed– i would love to learn these skills in a hands on way!)

    1. BRR*

      I think preschool is a different world. Especially if you want middle or high school work that’s a huge gap.

    2. Sara*

      I’m an elementary school teacher, and I agree – don’t do preschool if your goal is middle or high school. If you are looking for work as a day-to-day sub in a middle or high school, you are unlikely to have to do planning but you will definitely need classroom management skills. I would suggest starting with a position as a paraprofessional or instructional assistant, where you’ll be supervised in a classroom by a licensed teacher, or in an after school program or camp setting, where you’ll get experience working with students in your target age group but in a lower-pressure setting. Experience like this can help you develop management skills that you’ll need to sub successfully in a classroom. If you want to get experience planning instruction, definitely try to get a job as a para or IA/TA (titles will probably vary across districts), and take time to familiarize yourself with the learning standards used in your state or your target schools. Ultimately, you’ll probably need to get certified in your state to teach, but it sounds like you are just beginning to explore a career in education, so there’s probably no rush to go back to school or to enroll in an alternative certification program.

      1. Rosey-briar*

        Thank you very much, I really appreciate your advice! I will go look into this right now.

        1. Sara*

          If you’re in the US, set up an account on SchoolSpring (education jobs board), but also check the websites of local school districts for openings. Right now the opportunities may be limited (my district just started summer vacation yesterday), but keep checking over the summer. You may even still be able to find openings for summer programs, especially for aides/paraprofessionals/TAs.

          1. Rosey-briar*

            That’s what I have been doing! With my mind going a million different directions it’s been hard to focus in on one path but on the other hand, I’ve found some really interesting opportunities and if nothing else, it gives me a good excuse to practice cover letters/hopefully interviews!

  127. Superstar Anon*

    I just took a personality test that asked me how I felt about things at work. Not anonymous either. I was asked to rank things on a sliding scale from agree to disagree, like “I like my work” “I feel like others think I know what I am doing” “I can easily manipulate others”
    The best one was “I feel my work evaluation are fair” —I’ve not gotten a single evaluation since I hired on two years ago.
    I almost hate myself for lying my Hanukkah Balls off, but I hate the fact that these subjects came up in this test more. If you really want to know, just ask me.

    1. YourOwnPersonalCheeses*

      Ugh, my workplace made me take a test like that a few months ago. My co-workers and I were joking that if the company didn’t like your answers they’d fire you (can’t imagine that really happening, of course). I was thinking, “I already work here, what’s the point of this?” XD

  128. marina*

    Any bike commuters out there? What do you to do reduce sweating on your trip? What kind of bike do you use? I’ve been biking to the office on a road bike but find I struggle to get into a relaxed pace that keeps my heart rate down.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      In my previous job, one of the people I was supporting cycled to work. He wore specific cycling gear (top/bottoms, jacket etc) and changed into regular work clothes in the office. We also had a shower in the office (I don’t know if he used that).

      1. TheLazyB*

        I used to cycle and worked somewhere with a shower, which was great, but in my shower-free last job I showered before leaving then took a flannel and got a wash in work. More environmentally friendly than baby wipes :)

    2. Cath in Canada*

      I ride a hybrid bike (an older model of this one: http://www.devinci.com/bikes/bike_278_scategory_89). My ride to work is almost all downhill – like, all but three blocks of a 6 km ride – so I don’t get too sweaty, but I do get rained on and covered in leaf mulch and other stuff on a regular basis. We have a shower at work so I use that, but in other jobs that haven’t had showers I just wiped myself down with paper towels, applied deodorant, and changed clothes.

  129. fundraisingfran*

    Hi all! So I’ve been actively looking for new jobs for many reasons (funding problems at my nonprofit, nonexistent culture of philanthropy, incompetent and unsupportive boss, and many more!) and I have 2 questions:

    1) Do you always have to list your full job history in an application? A job I’m interviewing for requests applicants to list their job history for the past 7 years. However, since I’m pretty young that period would include my part-time jobs in high school (there are about 6 or 7 of them). At least half of my high-school jobs were at places that are out of business, and I don’t remember any of the names of my last direct supervisors there.

    2) How would you recommend eventually breaking the news that I’m leaving to donors? I’m really nervous about this part – I love all the donors that I work with closely, and I’ll miss them a lot. I should also mention that I’ll be the 4th person to leave this position in under 5 years, and I feel bad that they haven’t been able to have consistent relationships with anyone in my department.

    1. MsM*

      1) Unless the application specifically says to include part-time and/or high school jobs, I think it’s fine to stick to college internships and post-degree work experience.

      2) Work out a game plan with the appropriate colleagues for how to ensure that immediate opportunities and obligations don’t suffer before they can find a replacement for you, call up the high-level and influential donors or those you’re particularly close to to break the news directly, and send around a general email letting everyone know how much you’re going to miss them and who they can get in touch with at the organization until a successor starts, as well as ways to stay in touch with you if you’re comfortable with that. It’s never easy, and you may have to field some questions about the organization being in trouble, but they’ll appreciate you communicating with them.

  130. Marie*

    Darn it! I’m always late to the party.

    Anyways, I hope somebody will see my post and lend me some advice. I’ve been at my current job for 10 months now. I’m an admin assistant to an ED. Things with my boss were pretty cool for the first few months, but things started to get really tense in February. It started with her going off on me on very small and petty things to straight up blow ups that cross professional boundaries. She’s questioned my work ethic (which was absurd as she and others, including the board, have praised me for my work) and insulted me on personal levels (she’s asked me if I was autistic with no justifiable reasoning). I have tried not to internalize what she’s said to me and try to take whatever I can from her comments to improve, but I won’t lie that it hasn’t been easy. It’s hard being strong when you feel constantly misunderstood, unappreciated, and ignored.

    I believe she has an aggressive personality and some leadership complex. She gets mad and doesn’t think about what she’s saying. I also think she doesn’t handle stress very well. We were in the midst of working on a big fundraiser for the organization during our rough patch, and I think, just because of my proximity to her, I got the brunt of her stress.

    Anyway, things have eased up now that the event is over. She hasn’t snapped on me in a while, which is good, but we haven’t really been communicating much at all. In the beginning, she made it clear that I was her assistant, not the office. I was to only take directives from her. But lately, the opposite has been happening. If she communicates with me at all, 9/10 it’ll be through someone else- even if I’m sitting right there! And things I need to know to do my job efficiently are like pulling teeth to get from her. Right now I’m planning an office luncheon and I can’t get a budget. Same thing with supplies. But this is actually an organization wide issue, not just with me. Anyway, it is just very weird and I’m uncomfortable with this! I don’t know how to approach her because she has a difficult personality and can be quite intimidating. I’m afraid the friction we endured for those few months has had lasting negative effects. How do I go about fixing this?

    1. Jane*

      I don’t have advice, just virtual hugs. Do you like the job otherwise? If you are just miserable, I would consider looking for another job. When I was much younger, I worked for an abusive boss for two years, because I didn’t want to look like a job hopper. In retrospect, I should have gotten out earlier. Hang in there.

      1. Chloe*

        Thanks for the hugs! And no, I don’t like the job otherwise. I’m planning on going back to school for my master’s and I’m also looking for another job, when I’m not mentally exhausted of course.

    2. AnnieNonymous*

      My old boss used to be a lot like this. Calling me disorganized when really his thought processes were all over the place and hard to anticipate. He’d ask me questions and then get really annoyed when I needed a minute or two to go through a week’s worth of notes to find the answers. He would also throw out those diagnoses whenever he was frustrated with us, even though (I later found out) he was the one with a personality/mental diagnosis that he wasn’t treating.

      I say this not to encourage armchair psychology, but to point out that if your boss has unpredictable moods and randoms spurts of anger that scare you, this isn’t just about “having a conversation.” Your boss is the one with unconventional ideas about how normal communication works, and she’s blaming everyone else for not communicating with her in the ways that work for her. Don’t stay there unless you’re prepared to deal with this as the long-term status quo, because your boss doesn’t realize that she may be the one who isn’t normative, and honestly, accusing you of being autistic in a public office setting is enough to cause you to pack your bags and move on.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I gotta say, this was my thought.

        Marie, she sounds like a nightmare. I wish there was some advice to help but, how do you fix things with another person, especially above you in the food chain, especially with your direct boss, when she doesn’t want to fix anything.

        Hugs!

  131. Intrepid Intern*

    So my internship has ended and funds are running low. I’m post-graduation, so I’m looking for a full-time position, but I’ll be searching for and using temp work to tide me over.

    Is there anything special I should know about requesting time off from temping for interviews? Any advice?

  132. YandO*

    How do you handle the world while you job search?

    There are people I have to tell I am job searching: my references, my potential contacts, etc. Then there are close family and friends who know because they ask what I’ve been up to. And then there are not so close family and friends, who still end up knowing because those closer ones have spread the word. So now, everyone and their mother knows I was interviewing with that company and then asks me whether I got it or not. And then I have to say I did not and then I have to have a conversation about I/they did wrong and how there are better/greater things ahead of me.

    I am so sick of having to tell everyone that once again I was picked, that I have stopped talking to people. And it’s tough to be honest. It makes me feel like there is something wrong with me because everyone seems to expect 1 – things to work out within a few months 2 – that i will get this amazing raise and benefits and promotion 3 – that interview process is just one conversation and BAM hired.

    It does not work like that and rejection i shard to handle on its own, but rejection + everyone else’s feeling about it…I’d rather hide.

    1. Steve G*

      I am still hiding the fact I am unemployed from most people, which is getting hard because my 88yo grandma who needs to focus on herself keeps asking everyone about what is going on with my job (0ther family knows I took a job after being laid off and the job didn’t work out because I was underworked and bored and not what expected, etc.)…I told her I am still there, and the job is boring, but she keeps harping on it. I am getting really annoyed with the constant hammering me about what is going on with my job from her, and job hunt from other people. I don’t get how people think I will magically rise above the masses and be the quickest to get a job, nor do I get the rationale that I should take the first thing I get (even if it sucks and I will be there shortterm and be wasting the employers time), and that I should get an entry level job and work my way up….um, yeah, I can apply to entry level jobs all day, I am not going to get one. That is just weird. This isn’t a pull-yourself up by the bootstraps thing…this is a they need someone to enter teapot orders into the system, but at past Co I lobbied for teapot advocacy and ran a portfolio of 1000 teapot purchasers. I will no longer be able to get the order entry job just because I need cash.

      so yeah, Im with you!

    2. Judy*

      Frankly, no one but my husband and my references knew when I was interviewing with a given company. A few times, no one else even knew one of us was interviewing.

      My mom can be a bit micromanaging. We lived away for 15 years, and have now been back for 10 years. When we were planning our move from X city to hometown, it was actually more “away from X city nearer to hometown” so we didn’t even tell my parents or his parents we were looking to leave our current jobs. We hoped that we’d get closer to our hometown, but were not sure how close. I didn’t want to have conversations like the merits of job A vs job B. We wanted to make the decision that was best for us, both family wise (nearer) and career wise (our goals).

      When people ask what I’m up to, I usually don’t lead with work items anyway.

    3. Intrepid Intern*

      No advice, but a ton of sympathy. I have a good friend who’ll always harp on me for details of what’s going on my job search like it’s just idle small talk, then bring up any companies I mention applying to/interviewing with long after I’ve been rejected. So many people try to say things that are supportive, but just… aren’t. I feel bad, because I’m happy to get (even dubiously) useful advice, but job-search-as-idle-chatter I just. Cannot. Do.

    4. Diddly*

      I think I usually say something like (in response to how’s the job hunt going) – it’s going – awkward pause, look into distance, possibly leave if I can. Mention positives if there are any but otherwise – none of their business.
      Realistically i know they’re trying to be nice, but when nothing’s happening it just makes you feel crappy. So virtual hugs…

    5. Otter box*

      I always kept the list of people who knew to a few close friends/roommates/parents, but last fall I’d mentioned to my mom that I had a couple leads that might pan out into something…..and she put them in the family Christmas letter that gets mailed out to all 100+ people in her address book. When inevitably both of these fell through, I had a really fun time telling all my extended family members that no, I did not get the jobs. At that point I decided to not tell my mom about job prospects, but thankfully I did end up getting hired by the next place I interviewed with so I didn’t really have the chance to put that new plan into action :)

  133. Mary in Texas*

    I’m in HR and we have a policy that is just bad. Legal, but bad. And it’s bad for the business, in my humble opinion. This policy falls under my groups authority to manage, and I’ve mentioned to my manager that I think it’s bad. But she disagrees and since I’m only 18 months into the job, I don’t want to be too pushy. We have a new VP of HR and I was in a meeting with her this week (with a lot of other people). In this meeting, she said if there’s something we think she needs to know, she wants us to tell her. “Open communication” were her exact words. Do I go directly to her, despite the fact that my manager is against a change to the policy? I don’t want to undermine my manager, but I honestly think this policy is bad for business and if I bring this to the new VP of HR, it could be a feather in my hat with her…but make my current manager angry. Thoughts???

    1. Cristina in England*

      I know there are already around 1000 comments so if you don’t get many replies, maybe fire this one to AAM directly, perhaps with a few more details about what the bad policy is? This seems like front page material. Plus a few more details would help people figure out your options, and you never know, it might not be legal! I can’t help with the office politics angle regarding whether or not you should go over your boss’s head, sorry, I’m politically tone deaf.

      1. Mary in Texas*

        Thanks for the comment. The policy is definitley legal. In fact, I’ve discussed it with our Legal Dept at length. They agree it’s a bad policy. It’s strictly a matter of policy.

    2. BRR*

      I’ve heard plenty of managers say their door is always open when it’s really closed most of the time. Is there somebody else who might be able to bring it up to safe you from your manager’s wrath?

    3. Sara*

      Honestly, I’d wait until you get more of a feel for this new VP and are better able to accurately judge if she actually wants “open communication” or if that’s just lip service. You’ve brought this policy up with your manager, who has shown an unwillingness to budge, and while I think its admirable that you care so much about trying to change a bad policy, I think you need to approach taking things over your manager’s head with caution.

      Are employees who are negatively impacted by this policy making their feelings known about it?

      1. Sara*

        Also: is this policy, while bad, consistent with the policies of other, similar employers? Have you lost good employees over the policy? I’m not in HR but it seems like if there is evidence of the policy’s negative impact on the employees, you might pay special attention to documenting this (if that’s the sort of thing that would fall within your responsibilities). That could help strengthen your argument if you later go to someone higher up about the policy. (But I still think you should sit tight for a while.)

    4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Sometimes you have to wait for the right opportunity to make positive change.

      I wouldn’t do it for the feather in the cap. If that’s an underlying motivation, that will probably be obvious and your current manager would be right to be pissed.

      If it’s a bad policy, you should be able to point to concrete negative repercussions from it. One of the things you could would be to draft a write up of your case for why the policy is bad, and these are the bad things that are happening and changing the policy would make these good things happen. You could give this to your boss and say that you’d like to bring to New Person, because you’re passionate about this change.

      If your boss shuts you down again, next, I think, is the waiting game. That’s about waiting for the opportunity (in conversation, during a meeting) to present itself for your ideas to flow into the conversation naturally. That doesn’t mean your boss won’t be pissed then, she’s told you no 2x and you bring it up in a meeting??? But it’s less climbing over her than just going directly to VP in a one-on-one for the specific purpose of climbing over her (I think).

      Waiting also gives you a chance to get a good read on the VP. Some people truly want to listen and implement changes and some people just give lip service to that because it’s the right thing to say when they get a new job.

  134. Amber Rose*

    I don’t know if anyone is reading this but if you are, please save me.

    My supervisor wants me to do a parody of Ice Ice Baby to promote our new service (because it’s called Nace).

    I’m surrounded by crazy people. D:

    2. Diddly*

      Hehehe – what sort of parody? A video. Wacky but could be fun… Just make supervisor star in it :)

    4. Nanc*

      Possible options:

      1. Quote the great philosopher Jagger who famously sang “you can’t always get what you want.

      2. Overwhelm supervisor asking marketing-type demographic and legal questions, as in:
      Who is our audience? Millennials? Do they get Vanilla Ice? Gen X and Y? Is Vanilla Ice old enough to be retro? Boomers? Have they ever heard of or seen Vanilla Ice (full disclosure: I’m a boomer and I know of VI and the song and . . . I would find a parody weird). Will there be copyright issues using the music? Should we hire professional singers and dancers or are employees going to perform (which is not always a bad thing, GE had a wonderful series of videos using the singing talents of employees that really spoke to the products)?

      3. Open a fresh box of crackers and stare at your supervisor while you eat them?

    6. "Peekaboo." said Mink.*

      What kind of budget do you have for this? And – do you know any people who are good at music production?

      See if you can put together a remix / dubstep version of the tune. One that is good – like, it goes viral. Also – make it as sexual as possible. Think: Donna Summer’s “Love To Love You Baby”. But make it slow and sensual – like, have you ever heard “Razor Sharp” by Collide?

  135. Cath in Canada*

    Just wanted to brag that I only have one meeting next week! My boss and both of the professors I work with are all on vacation at the same time \o/

    1. Colette*

      I always loved it when my manager went on vacation! We worked closely together and got a lot done, but it was nice to have an occasional slow week.

  136. BRR*

    So I was put on a formal PIP. It’s for 90 days at least so I was like woo plenty of time to job hunt and keep my current salary and benefits. My boss seemed pretty open to me taking time off too as it’s summer and I’m still a regular member of the department (her words). I’m still obviously going to try at the PIP. I think they genuinely want me to succeed as they introduced some new very helpful resources and that it’s 90 days after a 60 day probation. Or at least they like me enough to give me plenty of time to job hunt.

  137. Ann Furthermore*

    Years ago, the director I reported to once made me so angry when she threatened to fire me for not meeting a ridiculous deadline that I ended up having to run to the ladies room because I was so livid that I was crying, and I was pretty close to just packing up my desk and quitting. Today I was as close as I’ve ever come to that point again since.

    I’m heading into the final weekend of an IT implementation project. Last night, with about 72 hours to go before we run our conversions in our live production instance, the IT person on the user side was asking us to make a code change to the program. I put my foot down and said no, and asked the PM to step in and put a stop to it.

    We of course had to have a call this morning, and the IT person was incredibly rude and defensive. She insisted that this issue was not a new thing, had been there all along, and even accused us of changing or excluding the conversion data from the last round of testing. I was so mad, and I truly have no idea how I managed to maintain my composure. And the upshot of the conference call was that we are going to go with the solution that I suggested yesterday afternoon.

    And THEN…after the call, the developer and I did some investigating, and found that the reason this has popped up at the last minute is because the IT person on their side CHANGED their conversion data between the last round of testing and this one. So it’s all on her. I put together an email with these findings and sent it off to my manager, the PM, and my director and asked them to bring this discrepancy to the attention of the big boss on their side, so that he would be fully aware that this was something HIS team caused, not ours.

    OMG. I cannot remember the last time I was so mad.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      That’s terrible, Ann.

      I hope that you treat yourself to something nice to off-set the feeling so livid.

    2. SuzyQ*

      Hope that you have a backup of the “old” conversion data in YOUR possession on a removable storage device.
      (Since their data is now garbage and cannot be trusted. Who knows what else has been changed accidentally) Plug THAT in.

      Yet somehow this will be your fault when even the most basic of accumulators is out of balance.
      Hope that you have a lot of good take-out food, chocolate treats and coffee as you stay up all night to fix this mess.

      Change the permissions on this person.

      *Deep Cleansing Breaths* :)

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      People.

      It takes a special sort of someone to do what you do, working on things that affect so many people, and having to take on the interaction and suggestions and baggage from so many others.

      You’re in the homestretch! Don’t let this idiot steal your happy from a job well done.

  138. Rachel*

    I know I can trust the AAM community to give their two cents. I left a job recently- it’s a long story and I didn’t have anything lined up. Did not leave on the best terms, but I have enough references that I think people can vouch for my work. I’m looking for jobs now but I was employed at this company so long I don’t even know where to begin. I think I might go into Counseling (the other job was not counseling related) as I completed a degree in that last year. The problem is, the jobs I found were grossly underpaid and offered little to no benefits. I know the work will be challenging but rewarding and maybe this is post work PTSD talking, but I’m feeling discouraged and in honesty, really sad.I have been overworked so long that the thought of having a little break seems good (though I obviously can’t stay unemployed for long.) any advice?
    Thanks…

    1. voluptuousfire*

      I’d take a week and just relax and get your head together. Once you’re clear headed, start tackling the job hunt.

      Go to the beach or take yourself out for an inexpensive lunch. There’s a restaurant/bar I go to sometimes that has an outdoor patio. If I go there during the afternoon, I’ve got the whole patio to myself and I have a nice margarita and read a book for an hour or two. Do what makes you happy.

      1. You are so welcome.*

        I second that.

        Hi Rachel –
        Of course it is sad to leave a place that you have worked at for a long time. There are always some cool, nice people and perks at the job that you will miss, along with the steady paycheck.

        Corporate trainer jobs use many of the same skill set as counseling. Look at a few corporate trainer job descriptions to get a feel for their buzzwords. Rewrite you resume using these words. Have a positive supportive friend look over or write your resume. Often they are more objective than you may be…and know your good points.

        1099 jobs to try:

        Counsel job seekers in soft skills/people skills/business etiquette. There is a huge need for this. Many people just do not learn these skills growing up.

        Life Coaching jobs.
        You have been employed for a long period, you know how to deal with the endless workplace drama that frustrates many people.

        Get a “gap” job…. to avoid touching your 401k or 403b money.
        Barbara Stanny and Louise Hay/Hay House have some good helpful upbeat advice, in general. Google them.

        You can do it!

    2. BRR*

      If you can take a break that’s good, most people need one between jobs.

      It sounds like you don’t have a lot of experience in counseling so are the jobs you are finding ones where they are paying appropriately for your qualifications?

    3. justcourt*

      I agree with everyone who is advising you to take a break. My only addition would be not to take too long of a break because too long of a break can make it so much harder to start a job search.

  139. justcourt*

    Hi, all! I have an issue I’m hoping to get input on.

    I was recently made aware a former manager is being investigated by HR after a former coworker reported her and then quit. Because I have knowledge of this manager’s conduct, specifically fireable offenses, this coworker reached out to me to ask that I contact HR. I would prefer not to instigate contact with my old employer, but I feel strongly that this manager should be fired, so I told him to pass on my contact information to HR so they can contact me if they want. I’m pretty sure they won’t contact me, though (HR at this company is pretty well known for being spineless). Is there any reason for me reach out to a company I haven’t worked for in a year about a manager I haven’t worked for in two years?

    2. Colette*

      I wouldn’t reach out to them. It’s been two years, and they presumably have your contact info if they want to talk to you.

      (Having said that, it would depend on the specific offences – I’d be more inclined to contact them if he was hurting people than I would for something like embezzling.)

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Harassment, discrimination, active harm to people of that nature: Yes, if you’re willing/comfortable.

      Anything else: Probably not. It’s been two years. What’s the nature of the behavior?

    4. justcourt*

      Her worst offense, from the company’s perspective, would have to be forging an employee’s signature on an evaluation. It’s important to note that the company takes evaluations VERY seriously. Per company policy, the first time a manager does not complete a written evaluation and hold an evaluation meeting before the employee’s anniversary, the manager is written up. The second time, the manager is fired. I know of at least two managers who were fired for exactly that.

      By not conducting an evaluation meeting she denied the employee the opportunity to view the evaluation and challenge any claims, which is unfair, but forging an employee’s signature is just so unethical.

      From my perspective, her worst offense was taking credit for another department’s accomplishments in a presentation which included all the departmental staff, the director, and various VPs. Her team was due to take on a very small percentage of training responsibilities from a team I previously worked on. The other team had 14 people training and supporting thousands of employees on a full time basis; additionally that team worked on multiple intensive projects involving hundreds of millions of dollars. After some reworking of roles and responsibilities, 2 employees on her team took on training a handful of people 1 day a week, yet she took credit for all the work that 14 people did before her team officially started training. When I told her that the presentation was not truthful, she told me it was fine and not to worry about it.

      1. justcourt*

        After rereading everyone’s responses and what I could potentially share with HR (my post above was just the tip of the iceberg), I think I’m right not to want to get involved. She’s definitely untrustworthy and unethical, but that’s not my problem. If the company is concerned enough about her behavior, they’ll look into it, and if they’re not concerned, they deserve her.

        Everyone, thanks for the feedback!

  140. Computer Guy Eli*

    I cant believe what just happened.

    So I go into town with my closest bro, right. He’s going into the navy. He gets rejected because he had suicidal thoughts when he was 10 years old because his mom killed herself about that time. So he’s mad because this is what he’s wanted to do all his life, and he doesn’t know what to do anymore. He says “Well I guess I can go to college.” “Well yeah, that’s what I plan to do man.” “Yeah, she left me 500k when she left for a college fund”

    Sweet mother of god.

    So a few weeks of planning later, him and I are going to go to college together next year for ComSci and we want to try to get positions as game developers. Any vets of the industry here that can give me some guidance?

    1. Nutcase*

      I’ve heard that the game dev industry is pretty brutal with long hours and low pay, but some people must enjoy it! My Computer Science degree had quite a lot of variety in what they taught us which kept me interested and also helped me realise what I was good at and the most interested in. I went in wanting to be a game developer myself and came out more interested in robotics and the electronics side of things. I get paid to play with robots (among other things) in my job now which is awesome!

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, friend is in video games and says it’s one of those industries where people are willing to work for low pay because they love games that much.

    2. Who art black as hell, as dark as night.*

      Woah. Eli – way to go!

      There are a LOT of different aspects of this that you’re going to have to cover – like, it is very cool that he’s going to finance college for both of you. But make sure that money and friendship don’t cause some kind of conflict.

      Re game development: there’s no shortage of stuff out there on the web that you can read about. I’d warn you to try to be realistic in your expectations. Game development can require ungodly long hours, and it doesn’t necessarily pay well, and (perhaps worst of all) it can take a lot of time and work to get to the point where you take the creative lead and work on games and designs that you thought of. But one nice thing is that if you get a degree in computer science, you can choose from a vast number of different types of jobs.

      Be that as it may: the first step is to go to college. There are any number of lists of the “best” colleges for computer science, but most of them include these in the top 10: MIT, Harvard, Carnegie Mellon, University of California at Berkeley, Stanford, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (my alma mater). It’s great that your friend has a juicy college fund, but if you can wangle in-state tuition (or get some kind of scholarship or assistance), that would be the best.

      One thing to realize about going to college, and why these schools are considered so good: they are not going to give you some kind of ‘boot-camp’ or ‘certification’ level of education. It’s not all fun and staying up late coding; there’s a lot of math, and you’ll have humanities requirements, and you’ll almost certainly be required to take chemistry and physics and, oh, did I mention math? And the computer science classes will not just be “How to write programs” – you’ll cover theory of computation (the underlying foundations of why this shit works), logic design (AND and OR gates and the stuff that actually goes on a chip), numerical methods, algorithms and data structures, databases, compilers, networks, and on and on and on. It will be a lot of work, and you’ll like some topics better than others (I loved logic design and computer graphics, but had to slog through numerical methods and also a device physics class that I believe was taught by Satan himself) but if you really love computers – you’ll immerse yourself in all of it, and you’ll most likely do well.

      I hope it’s obvious that the point of getting a four year college degree from a good school like this is that you end up with a really deep background, and a solid knowledge of the fundamentals as well as the latest industry trends. (and, honestly, classes that focus on something ‘trendy’ like say DevOps will probably only be useful for a couple of years).

      I guess what I’m trying to say is: it’s going to be a lot harder than, say, getting some kind of Microsoft or Cisco certification. But you’ll end up with a much richer, deeper background – one you’ll be able to count on for the rest of your life.

      Okay, back to game development: once you get your degree, you may want to give it a shot. Although there’s a fair chance that over the course of time you may find yourself seduced by some other area – this is not a bad thing.

      It’s late and I’m getting tired, but along with all of the stuff you learn, here are four areas that I think will prove especially useful to you over the course of your entire career:

      1. Databases. They’re everywhere. They’re at the heart of every game and damn near every other serious software application. If you know databases well, you will never lack for a job.

      2. Networking. A lot of people know little bits and pieces about networking. But if you develop a strong understanding of it, you’ll be a rare bird.

      3. Mobile devices. They’re a little bit on the ‘trendy’ side, but – they’re here and they simply are not ever going to go away. At my work, it’s already to the point where any proposal for a new software system has to have some kind of mobile face to it.

      4. Communication. This is kind’ve a ‘meta’ thing, but as you learn the theory and the technology, you should also put some focus on developing good communication skills, ie, being able to write well, being able to speak will, to give a presentation, to give an elevator pitch, etc. It’s almost a bit of a trap, in that some people will focus hard on learning some technology aspect and come to be an expert on the matter – but they can’t communicate for shit, so their impact on is basically zero. Once you’ve gone to college, and landed that great job, you’ll want to get raises and promotions and awards and recognition and basically advance upward through the company. It’s not like you have to target being the CEO – but you *really* don’t want to be viewed as a person who has no potential to move upward. So: learn to write well, learn to speak well, learn some people skills.

      I wish you the best with this, and I hope you’ll keep us up to date!

  141. AnonAnonAnon*

    Hey so I majorly messed up. I told Job A I couldn’t come in because Job B offered me a longer shift. And guess what my manager from Job A had a meeting at Job B and I bumped into her in the hall. So awkward. I didn’t say why I couldn’t work merely ‘unfortunately somethings come up’. These jobs aren’t competitors like two supermarkets, think of it like two hospitals. I haven’t spoken to her since. My friend and I made up a story that I had an emergency medical thing in the morning (thus why I called in) but it turned out to be nothing so I told Job B I was available (temp agency). But I feel so guilty. For the record Job A I’ve been at for 7 years casually, my manager is SO good to be and I just feel awful. I already felt awful before I saw her but I can’t turn down a full day of work for 2 hours… Advice! Do I confess? Go along with the lie when I see her next? Ugh.

    1. Colette*

      Were you scheduled with job A, or did they ask you to fill in after you committed to job B?

      If you were scheduled, you indeed screwed up. I don’t know if I’d bring it up, but I definitely would never do it again. You’re scheduled, you work.

      I think overall you should be upfront with job A that you’re working another job, and definitely making up additional stories is not the way to go.

      1. AnonAnonAnon*

        I was scheduled… I know it was wrong. I’m just not in a position to turn down a full day of work.

        Oh Job A know I do Job B. In fact that manager provided a reference for Job B!

        But yeah. I know it’s wrong :( I feel awful.

        1. Colette*

          Since job A knows about job B, it might be a good idea to talk to your manager and apologize for calling in and for lying about it.

          I can understand not wanting to turn down a longer shift at job B, but this is the kind of thing that could cost you job A. Is it worth it? (Probably not, right?)

          I don’t know what the answer is as far as how to prevent conflicts, but you do have to decide which job wins when there is overlap.

  142. Anon for this question*

    I gave my boss two weeks notice that I was leaving and a few days into my notice period she told it was my last day and sent me home from work early. Was I fired?

    1. BRR*

      No, you resigned. They cut your notice period short. Most likely you are eligible for unemployment.

      1. Anon for this question*

        Thanks. Unemployment is sadly more trouble than it’s worth, but I’m glad I wasn’t fired.

        1. BRR*

          I’d honestly give it a shot. The time vs. benefit to me is pretty high. It wouldn’t be that long to apply and you’d get a decent chunk of change for that little time. Plus it’s a sort of revenge for your manager not letting you serve out your notice period.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      Yeah I agree with BRR, you weren’t fired but if they don’t want my you to work your notice they should pay you for it, it file for unemployment if I were you.

      1. Anon for this question*

        It’s really hard to get unemployment where I live and I’ve already started my other job.

  143. lina inverse*

    Probably a bit of a silly question, but is a title change to better title still a promotion, even if duties and pay don’t change? My position has been adjusted from Coordinator to Manager, but I was still a manager, so it’s really a formality more than anything, I guess.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      To me It’s a reclassification of your job so the title is more aligned with what you are currently doing, I assume that your role and responsibilities evolved over time so it’s a promotion you’ve already had by taking on the extra work, just finally being reflected in your tittle.

  144. YourOwnPersonalCheeses*

    So Time magazine’s cover story right now is about your “XQ” (referring to the online psychological testing that’s more and more common in job searching these days), and it made me think of this website! I didn’t get a chance to read it yet. Did anyone here read it? Any thoughts? (about the article or the topic in general)

  145. AgentScully*

    My significant other worked in a very specialized and technical field for several years, and lost his job due to downsizing a few years ago. It was extremely difficult for him to find work in that field due to it being so specific with few opportunities & an ever-shrinking industry, so he looked for work in other fields. The job market in our area is not great, but we are not able to relocate at this time for a variety of reasons. When he finally found work, it was a construction job. He is now wanting to go back to work in a more professional field. He is struggling with how to best list his recent work experience doing manual labor & basic construction stuff on his resume. I want to help, but am at a loss on how to present his recent experience to potential employers. He thinks he is not getting any interest because potential employers in a different field won’t look past his construction work for the past few years. Any suggestions?

    1. Colette*

      I think it’s pretty hard in general to get a job that uses skills you haven’t used in a few years.

      Having said that, start the resume with “relevant experience” and follow up with “other experience”, which is where the construction job fits.

    2. Nutcase*

      Has he got any relevant professional qualifications or certifications that he can try to emphasise more on his resume? Can any of his achievements in the construction job relate to his technical job? Being praised for attention to detail, for getting things done on time, for streamlining a process? Other than that I’d suggest a really good cover letter explaining that he is looking to get back into the technical field, give some compelling reasons, try to address their worries that his specialist knowledge may be out of date – maybe he has been keeping up with recent advancements in the field and can briefly mention some of this. Good luck to your significant other!

  146. Nutcase*

    Good news: I got offered a promotion this week!

    Bad news: it is for significantly less pay than I was hoping! I am in a very niche field and have been very underpaid since I started. I was given a job title not relevant to my actual role (not even a few levels below – completely not my job) but nobody else with my skillset exists in the company so I was just shoehorned in. I didn’t even think to negotiate salary as this was my first job out of university and I was just happy to be given anything but I’m planning to give negotiating my best shot now. How can I demonstrate to my manager or HR the standard market rate for what I do? I have been pushing for a pay rise and a title change for over a year and I have been job searching and finding jobs that I’d be a perfect fit for on paper advertised at 30-40% more than what I am being paid at the moment. Should I print these job adverts out and start waving them about or what?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I had a very similar experience I tried telling my boss my salary was way below the market rate for what I was doing. I showed him market data as well as a number of job postings and asked what the plan was for moving my salary towards where it should be.

      It was a total waste of my time, 12 months later and nothing had changed, I took another job with a 30% raise.

      I’d still recommend having the conversation but im sceptical it will do any good.

    2. fposte*

      I’d have them ready but not wave them. Generally, they’re either willing to entertain the possibility of a higher salary or they’re not; there’s not usually a road where they’re willing to entertain the possibility but think you’re making up the comparative salaries.

      Not that you’ve said you’d ask for that, but in general, it’s pretty rare to get a corrective bump like 30%. That’s why negotiating out of the gate matters–it sets the scale for the future.

  147. Crappy Economy Strikes Again*

    A. Consulting
    B. Remote work
    C. Who cares. He paid the bills. There has got to be someone who does hiring that can relate to that.

    Maybe your husband can take a brief online training class and get a recent training or certification online. This fresh item will be the first thing that the recruiter looks at.
    List that on his resume, near the top.

  149. Mango*

    Hey everyone,

    I’m a lawyer at a nonprofit and I’m looking for new jobs. I have an interview lined up and I feel good about getting the job. I want the nonprofit to pay for my bar expenses (attorneys need to re-register every two years) and they normally do this. But, I am worried that I will make this request and then possibly resign shortly after. I kinda hate my boss and other higher ups (I have a boss who lies a lot about small and big things so not only do i not trust her…I just don’t like her anymore) but I’ve been trying to maintain a civil relationship. I’m pretty sure they know I’m looking for work. But the bar fees are more than $200 so I figure why should I pay for it when they normally do it. Would you ask for this even if you knew you were likly leaving for another job soon?

    2. AnotherFed*

      Would not asking for it be obvious? If you already have concerns about your boss, you don’t want any indications of weirdness while you job hunt. Since it’s only $200, I probably would still ask for it – that’s probably less than the cost of a day’s worth of pay, and it’s something that seems like it’s normal and expected for them to pay for at this nonprofit.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      A thousand different things might happen next.

      Sure, ask for it.

      If you get a great new job soon and feel like you want to, you could always reimburse them the $200 when you are leaving. Or not. But if you think of that as an option, you won’t feel guilty at all asking for reimbursement now.

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      Sounds to me like its a either part of your compensation, a perk or benefit you should use without any problem. If you had a definite end date or plan to leave then Maybe that would be different but I don’t think it would get a second thought if you leave even shortly after claiming your bar fees off the firm.

    6. E*

      Yes, because you never know what might happen. If the company pays this cost, and you leave soon after, you can always offer to pay it back.

  150. Mander*

    I’m late to the party but have a cover letter question, if anyone’s still reading.

    Basically, does it look bad to say “I’m looking for a different kind of job because the market for the job I trained for sucks and I’m not interested in it anymore”? I have a PhD and thought I wanted to be an academic but by the time I finished I realized that it just doesn’t suit me and I have lost interest in academia. Now I’m looking for technical jobs in my field but I’m not sure if I should put in a bit saying why I’m not looking for an academic job (partly also to explain why I haven’t really been working for the past 3 years), or leave that conversation for an interview.

    The only thing is that in my field there are rarely interviews for contract jobs — they usually decide whether or not they want you based on your application materials alone. Often the contracts are so short that by the time they decide you’re not the best fit (if they do) the job is over, so it’s rarely worth it to fire and replace you unless you do something really, really stupid. Permanent posts are not that common.

    1. Mango*

      Nooooo…definitely don’t put this! I’m a lawyer and there were basically NO lawyer jobs out there a few years back so I interviewed for other types of jobs. The main reason none of them hired me is they all said DURING THE INTERVIEW, well, what if the legal market picks up–will you leave us? Even though I said, “No of course not”, they obviously knew that was a lie and never hired me. I think it’s better to act like this other field is your newfound passion rather than explicitly stating it’s…your backup because your primary field has dried up.

      1. Mander*

        I guess the thing that stumps me is that I have a pretty big employment gap, and I’m under the impression that I should say something to explain it.

        I graduated in January 2012 and didn’t get a job until May 2015, and even that was a short-term contract gig. In September 2012 I started doing a bit of freelance academic editing and registered as self-employed for tax purposes, so that it wouldn’t look like I was doing absolutely nothing, but in truth I’ve only had a handful of clients. I have basically been an over-educated housewife in all that time, but we don’t even have any kids or sick relatives to care for or anything like that, so it’s not like there was a good reason for it other than me not having any luck on the job market*.

        *Which I take to mean there is something fundamentally wrong about me, but I’ll be damned if I can figure out what it is.

        1. Mango*

          I don’t think you should address it in the cover letter–if anything..if it comes up…wait until the interview.

        2. fposte*

          Agreeing that you don’t say this. In general, “why you’re not x” isn’t a great thing to have in a cover letter no matter what x is–it’s a defensive approach. And most people with a job gap have one because they couldn’t get a job. Talk about why you are choosing y–this job track and this job–rather than why you’re not choosing y–academics.

  151. Marjolein*

    When reading literature/books related to your job/profession, do you take notes? Say for an example that you are a teapot decorator and you’re reading a book on ancient antarctic decoration techniques, do you basically take notes like you used to do in college? Do you make a mind map, or do you use a different approach?

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