open thread – July 17, 2015

by Alison Green on July 17, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,455 comments }

{ 1,455 comments… read them below }

  1. Weeping Willow*

    So crying at work. How often does it happen to you? Where do you go hide to sob in peace? All those fun details about dripping water from your eyes because your job sucks. Share them!

    (And yes, I do know crying at work about work is not a sign of a good job. I am on the search now and hope to be gone soon. It’s just been a rough couple of weeks and I want to know that I’m not alone in this.)

    1. AVP*

      think Kelly Cutrone: “If you need to cry, go outside!”

      I had a really awful stressful June and found myself crying in the stairwell, twice. Luckily no one came down or I would have been mortified.

      1. Not My Usual Name*

        I did the Dash-to-the-Ladies, and found myself spending more time in there the last few weeks before I knew I was being terminated. Oddly enough I didn’t cry once I had been terminated.

        Trying to get rid of sore, swollen red eyes is the tricky bit though!

        1. stellanor*

          I had a brief crying-at-work period for non-work-related reasons (a change in medication was disasterous) and I also hid in the bathroom a lot. Fortunately my floor is maybe 10% women so the ladies’ room is a low traffic area.

    2. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Washroom. Run the water or hand dryer or flush the toilet if necessary to cover the sounds of crying. A cold cloth on the face will kill some redness. When you’re done crying, take several deep deep DEEP breaths and smile even if you don’t feel it–it will accustom your face to Not Crying mode. In a comment I’ll link to a guide on how to NOT look like you were crying.

      I use these tips a lot! That sounds depressing.

          1. Shannon*

            Extra bonus points if you blame it on allergies during allergy season and you and your coworker bond over your “allergies.”

        2. kitten*

          Thanks for this. I’m one of those people who retains “crying face” for hours even after I shed just a few tears!

    3. Kyrielle*

      Haven’t had this issue in a while, but I disagree with AVP – outside at any of my jobs would have meant walking quite a ways to not be visible from coworkers’ windows, and even then, someone else seeking privacy might run into you. Washroom. I would hide in a stall, then when no one was in the room, come out and wash my face at the sink to ease some of the redness.

      1. AVP*

        Ah. I work in a city where going outside makes it easy to blend in with tourists and other people on the street. Definitely wouldn’t work if you can be spotted!

        1. Kyrielle*

          Yeah, I work more in suburbia and right at the moment (luckily no need to hide crying, yay!) I work in a complex of four buildings that are all the same company. It’s true I could probably get to where no one who would recognize me yet would see me, right now, but that’s not saying much as people get to know me more – and only employees and escorted or expected visitors should be on the grounds.

          Last job, it was just a case of walking out the front door puts you smack in the middle of the row of windows that is our office (single-story building). Hiking to the other end of that sidewalk at least would’ve addressed that, but there was never anyone out there except employees/vendors for the few companies in that building, so no crowds to blend in with.

    4. IndieGir*

      The only time I cried at work was on 9/11. Not that there weren’t times I wanted to, but I was able to hold off until I could leave the building. One thing that helped me when I wanted to cry was doing the multiplication table in my head, starting with the 12s and working my way down. By the time I reached the 8s, I usually had it under control. It’s amazing how much of your brain you can redirect on that task . . .

      1. YaH*

        This is actually a very useful strategy. If you’re crying or on the verge of tears, try doing math facts in your head, or counting backwards from 100 by sevens, or something else analytical. It forces your brain to switch off the emotions-center so it can concentrate on the logic-center.

      2. Chrissi*

        I’ve been reading a book on neuroscience and your method works because you start using the prefrontal cortex (i.e. thinking part of your brain) instead of the limbic system (i.e. emotional part of your brain) and it kind of shorts out the emotion. That’s probably a terrible way of explaining it, but I just started doing it and it works quite well. I also sometimes sing the alphabet song – which seems like it would be too simple, but it works!

    5. GOG11*

      I broke down crying once in front of my boss. I was having health problems that (potentially) could have had a HUGE impact on my job and I just couldn’t keep it together. Fortunately, it doesn’t happen to me too often. At times, I have access to a private bathroom, and I’d pop in there if I had to. Outside is another good suggestion (AVP).

      Unsolicited tip: putting face lotion/eye cream/whatever it is you put on your face in the fridge really helps sooth red or irritated skin. Since it seems like your job is soul and tear sucking, it might be helpful to keep some in a paper bag in there. It’s like a little reset button/fresh start for me.

    6. Amber Rose*

      Bathroom or car.

      I cry a lot. I literally drip like a leaky faucet. Sometimes without realizing it until I scratch my cheek and realize my face is wet. :/

      So yeah. If I can, I’ll go sit in my car for a few minutes. Bathrooms have the advantage of cold water and paper towels to reduce redness and swelling though.

    8. LadyMountaineer*

      When it comes to tough meetings or confrontational people you cannot hide from try bringing in a huge glass of water. Someone once told me that you cannot cry and swallow at the same time and this has bought me enough time to pass through dealing with jerks.

    9. Felicia*

      Never at this job because I like it here, but at my last horrible job i’d try to go outside if I could. Or to the washroom. And it used to be 2-3 times a week, because that job was horrible. And EVERYONE there cried that often, so it wasn’t just me.

    10. Nashira*

      Sometimes my cube, for a mild cry – oh noes, my dust allergy is bugging me again, aren’t allergies just the worst? For anything stronger, a bathroom on a floor where no one knows me.

      Right now, it happens to me weekly. I have PTSD related to medical crap and work in an insurance office, handling med records. Oh, the office also has a very toxic environment and some emotional abuse. This weekend’s task list involves working on my résumé and trying to keep holding on for my psychiatrist appointment on the 22nd.

      We’ll get out of our bad jobs!

    11. NicoleK*

      I’m not a crier. If I’m crying at work…something is seriously wrong. That said, I felt very close to tears the last two days. My job is stressful enough; dealing with new coworker on top of that makes everything worse.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Me neither. There are only two times I’ve cried on the job. At OldJob I had already decided to leave, then someone did something Not Cool to me and I lost it. I didn’t bother trying to hide it and just sat at my desk, I didn’t care who saw. I had already decided to leave and that treatment just confirmed I had made the right choice. I found out later that I must have a hide of crocodile because it turned out that one of the more senior people was crying all the time. Second time, I spent with a client who literally got on my last nerve then bounced up and down on it like it was a trampoline. I kind of blew up when I couldn’t eat shite with a smile and just take it any more. Never worked for them again. Oh jeez, I just remembered a third time but that was different. I was working on a job and one of the speakers smacked my hand angrily like I was a toddler. It was so shocking I just didn’t know what to do. Even worse were the reactions of all the other men in the room. Yes, I went to the ladies for a good half hour and cried/calmed myself down. The last time I had been struck by a grown ass man, I was 5 and it was my father — the first and last time he ever spanked me (that I recall). So yeah, that happened. Later, I said to people on the team that what that speaker had done was technically assault and I could have had him arrested. Also, that if I had been a man, he never would have dared to do that. Apparently, that speaker was a Giant Flaming Arsehole to everyone, one of the travel directors said that I had “won” the prize of who got to spit in his sandwich. She was, of course, kidding but if they were talking about him like that, he was definitely a Special Case.

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            I *touched* his computer. Yeah. Really. Apparently anyone else on the planet who touches his laptop completely destroys it… or so he was yelling to justify what he had done. Which I vaguely registered through my shock. Seriously, the guy was Yosemite Sam style quiveringly angry that I had had the audacity to touch his computer. All I had done was move the pointer back and forth across the screen and was about to yell to my coworker backstage if they could see it, didn’t even know whose computer it was and had never been given any instruction that It Was Not To Be Touched.

    12. anonanonanon*

      I graduated college right when the economy tanked, so I had to take a job as a secretary at a local doctor’s office (who, ironically, did not give me health insurance). People get understandably worked up about their money or health insurance, but there was this one guy who had called me on the phone and was screaming at me about how stupid I was for charging him for some tests the doctor had run and how I should have known how much the insurance company would cover. He called me some pretty awful things and kept insulting my intelligence and my appearance.

      I usually have a pretty solid backbone and ability to verbally smackdown people giving me BS – and I rarely cry about anything – but at that point in time, I was miserable that I was stuck in a small town at a job with no future that paid me barely minimum wage. All my friends were moving to cities to get jobs in the industries they went to school for and I felt like an utter failure. So all the cruel things this guy was yelling at me because he was angry about his insurance/medical bill (which was about $100 total, if I remember correctly), just broke me and I was heaving with sobs by the time he had finished. Like, I couldn’t even speak I was so upset and crying so hard. Which led to an awkward silence on his part once he stopped yelling. He mumbled something about his wife coming in to pick up a refund check and hung up. His wife comes in about 10 minutes later and I was still sobbing my eyes out and she looked absolutely mortified. I was alone in the office and I didn’t have the authority to issue a refund check, which I told her and she left after some awkward apologies.

      Fast forward to a week later, when the guy comes in and stands at reception. I instinctively move as far away as possible from him, he looks upset by that, and then is all, “If I had known you were so young, I wouldn’t have yelled so much”. Which, imo, is not an excuse since he shouldn’t yell at anyone like he yelled at me, regardless of age. The doctor banned him from the office and that was the last of that.

      But that’s the only time I’ve truly cried at the office. So, I share your pain at having a job that makes you cry. I hope your rough couple of weeks get better and that you find a new and better job soon!

      1. Melissa*

        I hate places that don’t offer health insurance in general, but I get really peeved when I find out that health-related jobs don’t offer health insurance because WTF? I was a graduate student at an academic medical center, in their school of public health, where some of the professors were champions of universal health care and had given commentary on ACA when it was being debated. One day a friend/fellow student and I were chatting with a security guard who eventually mentioned that she didn’t have health insurance. At a school of public health!!

        Anyway, holy crap, did that guy not realize he was talking to a human being on the other end? Good for your doctor for banning him from the office, although he loses points for not giving employees health insurance.

        1. anonanonanon*

          Right? The office I worked at got away with not offering insurance because they had a small number of employees and weren’t legally required to offer insurance under state law. I took the job because I desperately needed money, but I appreciate the health insurance I’ve gotten from other companies so much more now that I know what it’s like not to have health insurance.

        2. Artemesia*

          I lived in a city where the conservative new pols elected bragged about saving money on garbage collections through their new efficient privatized service. What that meant was instead of public servants we now had men hauling our garbage who were paid poorly and had no health insurance — this is the ‘efficiency of privitization’ — screw the worker.

          Long since time for Medicare for all and divorcing medical insurance from employment. If you get really sick or really hurt and lose your job psst there goes our medical insurance just when you need it most.

      2. Pearl*

        I’m glad your boss banned him from the office. Some people honestly felt that because the insurance system is stacked so pro-insurance-company, they have to start out belligerent to get anything done. I’ve seen people scream until their problem is fixed, then abruptly stop, smile, and say, “Thanks! You know, sometimes you just have to be aggressive to get things done.”

        1. anonanonanon*

          Yeah. One of the biggest issues was that most of the insurance companies could only tell me if someone had coverage, not what it covered or how much they would owe. I had to wait for the doctor to bill the insurance company, the insurance company to send a check, and then I’d send the different out to the patient. Honestly, it’s really a patient’s responsibility to know what their insurance covers. When it comes down to it, it was never really my fault that insurance wouldn’t cover something or the doctor’s visit was a specific price. But people do love to yell at the messenger. Oh well.

          1. previously pregnant*

            I think it’s the insurance company’s intent to make sure NO ONE knows what their insurance covers so that they can choose to approve or deny claims. I called my insurance company a lot during a pregnancy and after childbirth to find out what was covered and they’d always say, “we can’t guarantee approval of any procedure until we’ve reviewed the claim.” It was infuriating…but the people on the medical side didn’t have any better knowledge either!

            1. Judy*

              I once joked that the reason the FMLA for the birth of a child existed was to give you time to make all of the calls to the insurance company. (Things like, you did send the insurance card for the new child, so beyond my notes I’m pretty sure we did call you to put him on the insurance, would you please stop denying the claims.)

              1. Judy*

                Oh, and the worst “I can’t talk to anyone but the covered individual about this”. me: “Really, you need to talk to my 6 week old baby about this?”

                1. Courtney*

                  I’d want to put the baby up the phone as he let out a loud wail. “Okay that’s him giving me permission to speak on his behalf. Now that’s covered so getting back to he was added to the policy…”

                  :)

            2. Ad Astra*

              I feel this way too. Every doctor’s office I’ve been to has mentioned in the paperwork that it’s the patient’s responsibility to know what’s covered, but I’m always just sort of praying that the copay for whatever procedure/medication I need is something I can afford.

              For that reason, I’ve instructed my friends and family to never let me get into an ambulance if there’s any other feasible way to get me to a hospital. And I’m not entirely joking.

              1. LibLady*

                I hear you on no ambulance! My brother-in-law was recently in a motorcycle accident (he’s going to be ok) and was life-flighted to the hospital. Care to guess the bill? $54,000. Fortunately they have insurance which will cover most or all of it, but that alone could wipe out a family’s finances.

        2. Artemesia*

          There are automated systems program to give you a person if you swear. I have actually experienced that. With insurance you often don’t get what you are paying for unless you are very aggressive. Many service industries are primed to give poor service unless the person is aggressive or even unpleasant. It really sucks.

      3. Ad Astra*

        That point where one bad moment (being screamed at by a customer) turns into a swirly, hellish build up of every single thing that’s been bothering you for months is so relatable to me. I’ve cried a lot in past jobs, and it was never solely about the situation at hand; it was always about the larger issue of feeling like a failure and wishing I hadn’t moved a thousand miles from home to take a job where (it seemed, at the time) everyone hated me and I wasn’t even good at the work. Ughhh.

        I don’t know who’s been teaching people that yelling at low-level employees is the way to get what you want, but that person’s a jerk.

        1. Retail Lifer*

          Exactly. Because as a low-level employee, you had no input in creating the policy and you have no power to change it, yet it’s ALL YOUR FAULT.

    13. Malissa*

      We have single bathrooms. Easy to lock oneself in and do what ever necessary to get through the day.

    14. ACA*

      Bathroom, or else hold it back until lunchtime and then go cry on a bench outside.

      (You’re not alone. Last summer, I was so miserable at work that I actually called a suicide hotline, sobbing, just so that I could get someone to tell me that it things at work would get better and I would get through it. Things did get better eventually, and I did get through it…but I’m still looking for another job. Good luck to you on your search!)

      1. Mel*

        Hahaha! One time I had a meltdown in my bosses office, which was fine because we had a close supportive relationship. She sent me outside to go center myself and pull my ish together and I decided to sit on a bench in the sun to do so. It was nearly lunch time and one of the senior execs happened to walk by and cheerily came over to say hello, while my puffy faced self was trying to get it together. I tried and failed to make cheery small talk before he awkwardly shuffled away.

        1. Artemesia*

          Happened to me at the local bar with a girlfriend after work. I was weeping to my friend/colleague when cheery execs spotting us came over to say hello and awkwardly hustled on.

    15. Last Name here*

      I inherited crying at the drop of a hat from my grandfather (would have really preferred the ‘bacon/eggs/steak every morning and still have low cholesterol’ gene). Unfortunately, it’s not great in a meeting with your boss. Most of the time I grit my teeth and get through it without them realizing how close I am to tearing up, but it absolutely sucks. I end up having a running commentary in my head about how I Must Not Cry and I’m always afraid that the distraction will make me miss something important.

      I did have come across a video earlier this year (we monitoring what kids do on a specific section of the internet) that caught me way off guard. I was so absolutely horrified by what other people can do to kids that I lost it at my desk. Fortunately, it was a.) very early in the day and b.)the few people who were in the office were very understanding (while saying ‘Before I come over to bring you this treat, is it still on your screen? I don’t want to see that…’).

      1. Anon for this*

        Just so you know, people who have to look at that stuff for part of their job on a regular basis (like prosecutors and judges) still cry about it too.

      2. Shannon*

        Telling myself that I Must Not Cry Now always makes me break into tears. That’s my stupid rebellious streak for ya.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          That’s actually pretty normal. The quickest way to get a crying person to stop crying is to tell them it’s okay to cry. The acknowledgement is that strong, it can help a person to find their path through the tears and stop.
          But, yes, the harder we tell ourselves not to cry, the more we want to cry. That is true.

      3. anon for this*

        Yes, one of the few times I’ve cried at work (and lucky for me I had a mid-day hour-long subway ride to do it on) was the first time I made a mandated reporter call. I can deal with workplace stress well but that was so much worse.

    16. Jubilance*

      I try to go in the bathroom or an empty conference room. Then I need to sit for a bit and calm down so that I don’t look like I’ve been crying.

    17. Taco Bella*

      My old office had giant landscaping rocks off in the far side of the parking lot next to the highway. It so far removed from the office that it felt like you were standing in a white noise machine on a different planet. We called them the crying rocks.

      1. Roly Poly Little Bat Faced Girl*

        “The Crying Rocks” is sad and hilarious at the same time.

    18. Jennifer*

      How often does it happen to me: seasonally at least. I just end up bursting into tears at my desk before making it to the bathroom, unfortunately. Last tears at work: two days ago.

      There is absolutely nowhere private to go here, unfortunately.

    19. Elizabeth West*

      Most of the time, I can hold out until I leave, but it happens occasionally. I cry when I get frustrated and if something else is bothering me, annoyances at work will push me right over the edge. Fortunately, I’m alone in a cubicle most of the time, so I can get away with just big rolling tears and a sniff now and then. I sniff a lot due to allergies, so I’m sure people around me wouldn’t think anything of it. If it’s more than that, I hit the bathroom and blow my nose in a stall.

      Yesterday I had an okay day until about three o’clock, and then in the space of a half hour a bunch of stupid stuff happened. I was already a bit stressed out from a long week, and I REALLY wanted to cry. I held it back until I got in the car to go home and when I hit the highway, WATERWORKS. I bawled through two exits and then I was fine. Well, better anyway.

    20. Jerzy*

      Several years ago I was working at a job I hated with people I didn’t like, but I thought, “Hey, at least this will get me out of my parent’s house.” I was 27 at the time, and had moved back about a year before from living/working abroad.

      I was on track to get an apartment when I got a call at work from the realtor working for the people I was going to rent from telling me that there was no CO for the place, and the deal had fallen through. And, completely unlike me, I started sobbing. I had my own office, and closed the door, but my office had a big window (no blinds/curtains) and one of my coworkers saw me crying and just let herself in to comfort me. Before I knew it, the whole office was standing around my desk, wondering why I was crying, but not really being comforting. Mostly just staring at me. I was sobbing so hard, I could neither explain it, or tell them to get the hell out because I didn’t want to be seen like this by people who already treated me badly.

      So a private office work, if you have curtains, and/or coworkers who understand boundaries.

    21. matcha123*

      I’ve teared up a bunch of times, but I think there were only two or three times where I had to excuse myself. The first time at workplace A, I went to the bathroom a number of times. At a different workplace, I did it openly at my desk. In both cases, they were tears of frustration, rather than sadness.

    22. Blue Swan*

      You’re not alone. I’d say on average I cry once a month, but there’s been difficult periods of time (both personal and professional) where I’ve found myself crying at work a few days in a row. It’s important to remember that no matter what, life will go on.

      As for places, I work in a complex so I have a few places: the bathroom, low-traffic stairwell, the roof and a closet.

    23. Lucky*

      Crying at work bc frustration, jerky boss, various glassbowl coworkers, etc. = hide in bathroom, pat face with cold water, use emergency concealer in desk drawer.

      Crying at work bc my dad died = go ahead and cry, tell people “I’ll be fine, this is just going to happen for a while.” I was surprised at how kind people were about random tears once I told them my dad had died, not just at work but also on the bus, in line at the grocery, in a freakin’ job interview, etc.

    24. puddin*

      I choose numbing instead. IIIIIII have become comfortably numb. Sing it with me now…

      Seriously, I am sorry to hear that you are distraught about work. It can be so frustrating and demoralizing. You are not alone. I am currently feeling trapped and am full on depressed about it.

      I have cried at work and I make no bones about it. I don’t wail, but I will let the tears flow and sniffle. I just sit in my cube, turn on a song (headphones) that expresses my mood, and let it burn for 3-4 minutes. Frustration water can be embarrassing though. If you do not want anyone to know, try a meeting room (if you have one) or outside.

      I did have a friend who worked in a mall and she would go on break (somehow hold the tears til then). Then go to one of the those back massage kiosks, get a rub, and with her face buried in the head rest let her tears flow.

      Move on and make a Smart move to the next job.

    25. ohgoodness~*

      Heh. I’ve been crying a lot at work recently and i sort of don’t care? I’ve been having massive health issues, a very close friend was murdered recently, and my job extremely toxic, so, when it happens, I’ve just sat here and quietly cried cause I’m too busy to go off to the bathroom.

      1. INFJ*

        I hate that- having to surreptitiously cry while working because you can’t get away. I’m always torn between 1) hoping nobody notices, and 2) wondering how the hell people don’t notice when they talk to me and my eyes must be clearly red and watery.

        1. SevenSixOne*

          I’ll discreetly ask if everything’s OK if I know the cry-er well, if the crying lasts more than a few minutes, or if it seems like the person is in immediate danger. But usually when someone’s trying to Stealth Cry, I just pretend not to notice out of politeness.

      3. Nashira*

        That is a lot to deal with all at once. I’m especially sorry you lost a friend that way. I can’t imagine how traumatic and difficult it is.

    26. Kate*

      I’ve only cried at work twice that I can remember. Once it because it was my first job and a client was just really mean to me over the phone. I literally hid under my desk. You can totally do this if you work in a cube or office where no one will see you scurry under there, or your desk is off to the side and no one is looking.

      Once it because I was just so fed up with my job. There were other things going on and I was feeling down about life overall, and not liking my job was a BIG part of that. And then I got to work and spilled hot water all over myself. Cue the water works. I probably could have hid under my desk that time, but before I could another coworker stopped by and found me … luckily she’s also been fairly unhappy here so we had a nice talk.

      It’s terrible/beautiful how many of us have these stories.

      1. Chalupa Batman*

        Seconding crying under the desk. Once I was in cubes and couldn’t (and was later told I am NOT a quiet crier- I ended up taking 3 days off with an infected tooth, so everyone knew why I was crying), but when OldJob was truly terrible and I was crying at work relatively often, I would close the door and cry under my desk so they would think I was out of my office and no one would bother me. Appropriately, one of the many reasons I was crying was because my workload was so unwieldy and interruptions so frequent that I was chained to my desk. Literally the only way to be left alone was to physically hide. I do not miss OldJob.

    27. afiendishthingy*

      Well, at I least once at every job I’ve ever had, I think. Worst one was this winter where I cried in a meeting with a client who disliked me and was very passive aggressive, would say super insulting things about my abilities and then smile like it was a funny joke she was making. I escaped to the bathroom and took some deep breaths, it was a few minutes, but everyone definitely knew I was crying. It SUCKED. I don’t have that client anymore and my confidence has improved, but I’ve still cried twice since then during 1:1 meetings with my supervisor – but that’s more just about processing stuff and she’s a social worker so I try not to feel too bad about it.

    28. Alder*

      When I first started teaching I worked at an after-school program in a middle school, teaching art. It could have been a great job, but I was really unprepared and way too hard on myself and spent a lot of time crying that year.

      One day, after the kids had left, I went to put away the stack of dried paintings I had collected from my students and found that this one kid had taken a stapler when I wasn’t looking stapled through the whole pile, a whole bunch of times. The paintings weren’t ruined, but they had holes in them and I was going to have to pry them apart, and I started crying and stomping on the floor. Just then I heard a tiny, twinkly voice from the hallway asking me what was wrong. It was this little sixth-grade girl, whose name was something extremely cute and flowery, who wore fairy wings to school on top of her uniform every day and had pink bows all over her backpack, smiling at me worriedly.

      I told her everything was okay, I just found a big mess I didn’t know about and I was frustrated. The next year I went and got a different job!

    29. Ihmmy*

      at my last job I’d either go to the one single room bathroom (other set were stalls) but for bad sessions I went to my car and locked the doors. I needed distance from crazypants so I could let it all out and then come back and fix everything that was apparently wrong. Current job doesn’t have a good hidey spot, almost all the offices have a window in them and the bathrooms are all stalls. So either hide under a desk in an empty office, pray the one window free room is empty, or go to another building entirely. But I haven’t cried at this job yet, just had the start of a panic attack once.

    31. LQ*

      Slightly different than the other posters. When I’m exhausted I tear up. My face will have tears running down it. And this can happen on and off all day. It would look like tears are just running down my face. When it is happening it is most likely I’m super busy at work. In which case I just wipe them away and continue, if someone looks at me funny I just say I’m tired and keep going. I just act like nothing is happening. If I tried to step away until it stopped it would be sometimes 10-15 minutes and often when there is a lot happening and several times a day.

    32. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I’ve only ever full-on cried at work once (when I got laid off from my first “real” job – which was kinda embarrassing because I had a 16-week notice period and still had to go back to work for four months), but I’ve teared up a few times. I just go for a walk … and take as much freaking time as I need to compose myself.

    33. CheeryO*

      I ugly-cried during my comprehensive oral exam for my Master’s. I made it through by biting my lip really hard, but I couldn’t stop the tears from coming fast and ugly once I was done. I apologized and dashed off to the bathroom to do damage control, but it was pretty bad. I started up again once they told me that I passed, and I just apologized again and gratefully accepted tissues. They were very gracious about it (and one of my professors shared that she cried on the bathroom floor after her own comps), but it’s still so embarrassing in hindsight.

      1. A*

        As soon as I got back to my grad student office after my PhD comps, I just broke down. It was cathartic to release all that pressure and stress.

    34. Ally*

      When I worked in a retail store (I was 17) I had to assist a severely disabled customer. He was the sweetest old man, had clearly had a stroke and could not 1. talk very well 2. walk very well and 3. hear very well and was out Christmas shopping for his son.

      I helped him get all his stuff, led him to the cash, and promptly burst into tears.

      I talked to a coworker who told me to go hide in the managers office until I had calmed down enough to pull myself together. It still makes me emotional just thinking about that man and it’s been years.

    35. INFJ*

      LastJob, and 2 managers ago, I usually cried in the ladies room when I could- my boss at the time wouldn’t let me leave his office and come back later if I felt as though I was getting too emotional to have a constructive conversation, so it often happened that I cried in his office. I had to tell him to keep a box of tissues in his office because they were definitely needed. (And I was not the only one. I had one super-upbeat/bubbly coworker in particular who, every time I saw her crying, I would say, “Ramsey Bolton again?” because it was that common.)

      One of the best moments of my new job was when I had to bring a box of tissues into my manager’s office because we were LAUGHING too much. I share this last part because I want to give you hope that things can and will get better.

    36. Bad signs*

      Not alone. My supervisor and I both feel like crying and/or screaming on a daily basis (most recently because Mr. Bossman did not pay for the company health insurance until 2 days after it was already supposed to be process)

    37. Bea W*

      My employer got a new CEO earlier in the year. He decided to shake things up a whole lot. His new vision for the company translates into “Let’s make the shareholders rich and happy.”, which of is important to a point I guess, but I’m not terribly inspired by it as the “new direction” we’re taking, unless you count the inspiration to vomit.

      1. Bea W*

        *sigh* I hit the wrong link again. This is a totally separate topic, although I admit it did make me want to cry.

    38. Anie*

      Yeah, I can think of a few times I cried. Various jobs. This wasn’t the most recent, but I remember getting a call from my landlord that we had to have our apartment treated for bedbugs for a third time in as many months. It was an enormous process of washing every single piece of fabric and throwing away so many smaller items (they could also live in books and basically anything with a nook or cranny).

      I was so mad that the problem apartment, below mine, kept not cleaning up and taking the process seriously. I was also seriously allergic to bedbug bites and ended up with massive amounts of my body covered in bites.

      I broke down crying in the middle of a customer-facing area and my boss wouldn’t left me take any time to compose myself. I was standing there weeping while trying to answer questions from customers or keep my hair in my face so no one could see my eyes.

      1. TheLazyB*

        I just don’t get bosses who won’t let you take five in these circumstances. It can’t look good to customers when you’re all teary. And bedbugs is an extremely good reason to cry IMO.

      2. Ad Astra*

        I live in constant fear of contracting (is that the word?) bedbugs. What a nightmare. I would have cried too.

    39. Beancounter in Texas*

      I’ll add my sob story…

      I was escaping Job From Hell and kind of desperate. I hadn’t landed any other interviews except with Current Employer and was hired to replace the senior bookkeeper (unbeknownst to her). Her tongue was super sharp and she berated me for every little tiny thing and made snide remarks that let me know she looked down at me and thought I was incompetent. I learned that the temp agency previous used had told The Boss that they would not send any more temps to our office because of This Woman. Hence, I was hired directly. I cried at least three times a week in the bathroom, if not everyday. I sobbed and bawled, like a “gasping for air between sobs” kind of cry. The promise of succeeding her if/when she was terminated is what helped me to suffer through. In retrospect, I was suffering from some post-traumatic stress from the Job From Hell before I jumped out of the frying pan and into this fire.

      After I started finding HER mistakes in some of the books (addition errors, writing the wrong dates) and realizing that I could totally do her job more efficiently, I stopped caring what she thought and for the most part, what she said. She could hurt my feelings if I dropped my guard, but I stopped crying for the most part. She was completely blindsided the day she was terminated. I felt a little sorry for her because she wasn’t wholly a bad person (just old and mean), and she had tears in HER eyes for a change, but she got herself fired.

    40. A Minion*

      I go to the bathroom and cry. I’ve been in there twice this week already. I’m expecting more trips in the future. This has been a very, very stressful month for me so far. I’m glad to see the post downthread on how to not look like you’ve just been crying, though! Hopefully that will get me through the next couple of weeks.

    41. CrazyCatLady*

      It only happened to me once after my boss yelled at me for almost an hour. I cried in front of him, so there was no crying in peace.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Why do people do that? Your boss behaved like an idiot. I always say, that people with real skills and abilities do not need to scream because they know what to do. Must be he did not have an real skills and abilities.

    42. TheLazyB*

      I am a bit surprised and saddened by a lot of these replies. I don’t cry much in work, and I definitely wouldn’t recommend it, but I’ve mostly worked in environments where – as long as it’s not too regular – it won’t do you any harm.

      I recently went to a talk called Women Into Science and one of the speakers, a Physics professor (whose husband is a SAHD to their four year old) was talking about how shouting and aggression are far more acceptable in university science departments than crying – they won’t win you any fans, but it won’t permanently damage your career like crying will. And I thought, YES!! We women buy into this ‘WE MUST NEVER CRY IN WORK EVER’ and really it doesn’t do us any favours. It’s a normal physiological reaction to many situations.

      Trying to remember instances of me crying in work. I will discount the ones which were due to me suffering from poor mental health.

      OK, first job: I had split up with my boyfriend and was devastated. But I didn’t want to start crying (because if I did I’d never stop) so I asked for a quite word with my line manager and emphatically-mattter-of-fact-ly told her we’d split up, immediately followed by ‘please don’t express any sympathy or I will cry’. She understood and was very matter of fact in return which I really appreciated.

      The main other one I remember was when a senior manager came down to ask why his meeting wasn’t set up. It was nothing to do with me and we’d recently moved to a system where rooms weren’t set up any more. I was trying to explain this to him and say that as soon as I could find office cover I would go upstairs and do it but he just shouted at me! I was maybe 33 at the time and he was so far out of order I couldn’t believe it. I called someone else to cover and went and did the room. Then I went to my line manager’s office, luckily she was back, walked in and burst into angry tears. I was furious and frustrated.

      The next day when I had calmed down I went up to his office to explain what had happened and tell him he was way out of order shouting at me. I was the Chief’s PA FFS and worked hard and was good at my job! I got two lines into explaining and he started to get angry again! At which point I said ‘I came up here because you shouted at me yesterday and I do not deserve that.’ Or words to that effect. He looked sheepish and apologised.

      He mostly ignored me after that, until I ended up HIS PA too. Ha.

      Oh god I just remembered another one. A middle job. I got an email from my boss (who was working from home), telling me I was unprofessional, didn’t care about the job and that everyone else had noticed too. I went and hid in the loos and cried. Tried to avoid going for coffee break that day but they all waited for me.

      The lab assistant kindly let me know at coffee that our evil b@st@rd boss had BCC’d that email round the whole lab.

      I cried at coffee break too.

      Luckily a couple of the other staff came up to me and told me he just did that to people every so often and not to take it personally. But, yeah. I didn’t like sob openly, but I think everyone knew I was crying (and it was mostly men) and I think they all thought it was a reasonable reaction to the boss’s cruelty.

      So, yeah. I’ve been working nearly 20 years and they are the worst stories :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Two more candidates for boss of the year right here. Wow. I am sorry these situations happened to you.

        1. TheLazyB*

          Thank you!

          I still have the email somewhere. I can laugh now, mostly, but I had PTSD from that job for quite a while. I had no confidence to apply for other jobs after the abuse and ended up applying for an internal job and getting it. The people were lovely and it was great to realise that actually, I’m a bloody great employee.

    43. Miss Betty*

      If you’re in a multi-story buildings and can access the restrooms on other floors (or if there’s a public restroom in the building), that can be helpful – at least you don’t have the added stress of hoping no one from the office comes in.

    44. Ad Astra*

      About a month after starting a new job in a new city, I was sent off on what my manager thought would be a low-key assignment to photograph a cute event at a local grade school and talk to some kids. Talking to new people in an official context really stresses me out, but I didn’t want my new boss to think I couldn’t hang. So I headed out the door and tweeted something like “Today seems like as good a day as any to conquer crippling social anxiety.”

      It took me FOREVER to find my car in the garage, which had a slightly confusing setup. While I was searching for my car, the bridal shop I was planning to visit (a 5-hour drive from where I lived) that weekend called to tell me they couldn’t get me an appointment and I would have to reschedule. I had already waited until the last minute (in bridal time, which is really like 5 or 6 months before the wedding), so this was NOT GOOD NEWS. Before I made it out of the garage, my then-fiance called to tell me he wouldn’t be able to coach sports in our new state because of some problems with his license. Also not good news.

      I got lost on the way to the school, then couldn’t find a place to park, and then finally took a bunch of photos I wasn’t thrilled with. Then my check engine light came on. I made it back to the office, where my manager said she’d read my tweet and thought it sounded like I was complaining about the assignment (I wasn’t, really, but I see why it sounded that way.)

      I burst into tears, started babbling something about being really nervous and getting lost and the check engine light and not wanting to push back on the assignment because I didn’t want her to avoid giving me more opportunities in the future and wahhhh. I am sure this manager, who was all of 24 years old, was completely puzzled by my reaction.

      To her credit, the manager said something like, “When I assigned this, I thought I was actually throwing you a bone, not making your life harder. Sometimes this job will require you to go out and take photos or videos. Can you do that?” And then she sent me off to go get some frozen yogurt for an hour while I composed myself.

      She was the only consistently sane and human manager at this company, and she was gone before my wedding rolled around.

    45. LeighTX*

      At my last job, I cried more in the last six months I worked there than in all my years at previous jobs combined, times about ten. I was so miserable that I would routinely burst into tears almost randomly, and even saw my doctor to get some medicinal help until I could get out of there. What made it all even more fun was that we had all-glass offices, so there was zero privacy. I’d try to turn and face the window until I could get myself under control, then put my head down and walk to the bathroom to splash cold water on my face or finish crying in the stall.

      I thank God every day for my new job. Being in a job or workplace that you hate is soul-sucking. Good luck, Weeping Willow; I hope you get out soon!

    46. Lily Puddle*

      Similar to the other person who posted that you can’t drink water and cry at the same time, I heard once that you can’t cough and cry at the same time. So if I feel tears coming on at an inappropriate time, I’ll cough. Seems to work. It’s not something you can keep up long term, though, as people will start paying more attention to you if you cough a lot, but it may be enough to get you out of the room and to a safe crying place.

      1. Chrissi*

        Also, if you are like me and get choked up when you cry, touch your tongue to the roof of your mouth as far back as you can – it opens up your throat and keeps you from choking up, and, for me, keeps me from crying in the short term.

    47. Writer in trouble*

      Yep, I have cried at work many a time. I’ve had high anxiety lately and I work myself up over things both work and non-work related. I do go into the bathroom or whatever I have to do to ensure people don’t see me – haven’t gotten caught yet! Sometimes I do feel better afterwards from the release and it helps me get back to the grind.

    48. TootsNYC*

      I once asked to speak with someone above me about the guy who was sort of my direct boss (though in a way, we were more like colleagues). He’d been nasty in criticizing me for taking an overdue task off his desk (because he’d vanished without a word to anyone, his deputy was getting calls about it, and my team could do the final check that -should- have been all we needed).
      I split it among my team (for speed) and said, “make -only- those changes that are absolutely crucial.” Well, on two of the pages, they found something important and rapidly moved to get them input and reprinted.
      The guy comes back, demands to know where the pages are, deputy & I tell him, and I saw, “two of them are being reprinted.” He snarls nastily about how they shouldn’t be making changes, and I point out, “they were typos or garbled inputting.”
      Two minutes, literally, later, I hand him the finished packet. It’s over due, remember. And 30 minutes later he brings me one of those pages with a photocredit change that’s really stupid–like, “Left:” is changed to “At left:” and insists that we should get that in and reprinted right away.
      I was furious.

      Since this was a trend of him being nasty and basically really disrespectful, I went to his boss. And started to cry as I’m telling this story. And she says to me, crisply and encouragingly, “don’t cry. Yell, get mad, raise your voice. Let your anger show in your tone of voice. But don’t cry. It’s OK to be mad–let it out. Just don’t cry.” It actually helped. Because it was true that the tears were from suppressing the emotion–anger.

  2. Mockingjay*

    Good news!

    Out of the blue, I got a request on LinkedIn from a local company HR rep looking for an experienced technical writer. He wanted to set up a phone screen this week. I responded and we talked briefly yesterday – it went very well and he was very enthused about my qualifications. He asked me to send my resume asap so he could get it to the hiring manager. He even called me back to make sure I had his correct corporate email, and asked if he could have the resume by COB.

    Updated my resume and wrote an awesome cover letter (thank you Alison!) and sent them off…

    Here’s hoping for the next step!
    ******
    And for those of you following the Meeting Minutes saga…this week my intrepid colleague and I got a request to take minutes during an week-long training class.

    Ummm, shouldn’t the trainees be taking their own notes? How else are they going to learn? [Bangs forehead on keyboard AGAIN. I have permanent indentations that read QWERTY in the mirror.]

    1. GOG11*

      Congrats on the phone screen and good luck for the rest of the interview process!

      Sorry to hear about you and your colleague being sucked into yet another note taking venture. Unless they’re trying to create a set of master documents that can be used from here on out (that keeps you from having to be there again!), it really sucks that you’re being roped into this :/

    3. Malissa*

      Good luck on getting a new job. And start hitting your head on the keyboard rest. It’s much softer. ;)

  3. Overscheduled*

    How can I deal with an unrealistic and punitive schedule? Yesterday, my boss asked me for a quote on how long it would take me to complete four projects, and I gave him a quote that it would take approximately 45 hours to do everything accurately and completely. He came back with “that’s too bad, it’s due Monday morning.” This means that I’ll be at work all weekend, likely 20-hour-days, to get it in on time.

    I am efficient and use my time well — I should point out that our competitor has 20 people doing the job that five of us here do, and those 20 people do approximately 12 similar projects a year. I’ve done eight since April, by myself.

    While I am pretty sure the answer is that my boss sucks and I should move elsewhere, I’m tied to the area and require the insurance benefits for at least another nine months, so I’d like any advice on scripts or … something to help push back. Thanks.

    1. LCL*

      You’ve already written the script. Your second paragraph. Tell him. And stop working 20 hour days.

    2. Hlyssande*

      I don’t have advice, but your boss is a terrible person. If he already knew it was due Monday, why did he bother asking? Ugh.

      I hope you’re not exempt and can get OT, but I’m guessing you probably are.

      Suck!

    4. Barbara in Swampeast*

      1) Seriously, start looking for another job.
      2) Tighten your budget now so you have as much wiggle room as possible when he fires you.
      3) Talk to him today and tell him all four projects are not possible by Monday. Ask him which TWO should be your priority and point out to him that all your other projects are on hold while you do this and will also miss their deadlines.
      4) Only work on those two projects and when they are done, you are done until Monday. Take any time remaining and do something relaxing–like NOTHING!

    5. JMegan*

      Do you give him the full details, or just the final number? When you say 45 hours, do you show each step of the process? Task X will take about 3 hours, then Task Y will take an hour and a half. Etc.

      You can also give some options – we could maybe cut out A, which would save two hours, but then that would impact B and C. If B and C are a priority, then we can cut D instead. Maybe someone else can do E at the same time as I’m doing F? We absolutely can’t cut G, though, so we’ll need to make sure we’re blocking enough time for that part.

      Also, put it on a calendar. So you’ll be doing X and Y on Friday, then spending all day Saturday on Z. Jane needs to approve A, and she won’t be in until Monday, so you’ll work on B and C in the meantime.

      Spell everything out in excruciating detail, if you’re not already doing that. You can also point out that you need rest in order to function effectively, and that your work isn’t going to be nearly as good at Hour 18 of a 20-hour day as it was at Hour 10. (Although it sounds like your boss might take that as a personal weakness on your part, so YMMV for that one!)

      Also, your boss sucks. I hope you can get out of there soon!

    6. Kyrielle*

      Is there any prayer that he would give you part of the next week off if you said you were willing to work the weekend to get it done, but would like a day or two next week off?

      I’m guessing if that were probable, you’d have asked, and he doesn’t sound entirely reasonable, but if it’s not something that’s been asked before, you could float it and see if it goes anywhere.

    7. Camellia*

      As a variation on this, at OldJob my manager stopped by my desk out of the blue and asked me how long it would take me to do GiantProject. I thought quickly and said, “Six months.” He snorted scornfully and said, “There’s no way it will take that long!” So they decided to hire ExpensiveExperts to do it. On the first phone call he asked ExpensiveExperts how long. ExpensiveExperts replied, “Six months.”

      The sound of crickets was quite gratifying.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Wait, he contracted it out without a time estimate?! And how long did it take to contract it out?! Your OldJob was crazy.

    8. zora*

      Dude, people are late with their deadlines all the time. If they are so horrible, they probably aren’t going to fire you because it would be too much work. Just work a normal amount of hours, get done what you can get done in that amount of time. Go home this weekend. When he comes to you Monday for the project, “oh, bummer, it’s not done yet, I still have this amount of work yet. I’ll get it to you when it’s done.” Turn back to the computer and keep working. You don’t need to argue with him about it, you just spend a reasonable amount of time on it, and get it done when it gets done. It doesn’t sound like you are a surgeon, so I’m willing to bet no one will die if it doesn’t get done by Monday.

      1. zora*

        I’m just saying this because I worked with people who turned things in late All. The. Time. I got laid off and they are still there. You just have to calmly be like “oh, not done yet. Still working on it.”

        Another thing that has helped me: what is literally the worst case scenario that could possibly happen?
        -He yells at you? ok you can survive that, just sit there calmly and then when he takes a breath say, “Ok, well I will get back to work on it now then so I can get it to you.”
        -He can’t physically prevent you from leaving the office at the end of the day.
        -He fires you? Very unlikely, but hey, you’d get unemployment.
        -And what about the ROUSes? I don’t believe they exist.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      “our competitor has 20 people doing the job that five of us here do, and those 20 people do approximately 12 similar projects a year. I’ve done eight since April, by myself.”

      ADDED: “Boss, I am dong the best I can do all the time. I understand you need to have that project on Monday. The best I can do is X day. The recipients of this work will just have to understand I am only one person. I will not jeopardize my health working 20 hour days to get this done for Monday. I will help out as best I can.”

      Maybe it is wrong of me, but I have a bit of an attitude about unfair work loads. It’s not MY problem when the boss overextends or over commits. I do my best each day, I have had a couple bosses say I work like I am three people. I am saying this because you probably have a similar track record. This project is not doable in the time frame given. You have the experience under your belt to know this to be a fact. Be confident, know that you know.

      Sooo- ask if he will authorize the rest of the week off for you because you will be working 40 hours over the weekend to get this done. OR Ask if someone can be reassigned to work with you so that you both can get it done on time.
      The way I have pushed back in the past is through the use of specifics like this. Another specific you can use if if you know something you need is not in house. “In order to assemble a 1000 widgets by Monday, I will need 500 more gizmos than what we have on hand.” Or perhaps a printer that you use is broken/information is missing/key individual is on vacation, you could point that out, too.

      Honestly- I feel he left himself wide open if those were his actual words, “that is too bad, it’s due Monday.” I would have said, “Well, it looks like we won’t make Monday, so what are we going to do here?” ** Watch your tone of voice, you want to sound sincere, not snarky. If you can muster a little fatigue in your voice that might help make it sound less like a threat and more like a real question. You also want to say “we”, indicating that it’s your concern as well as his. (** this works if you know your boss and his moods well enough and you know your tone of voice will help him change tracks.)

  4. Cruciatus*

    Does anyone have tips for an entire morning of interviewing for an administrative role? Last week I was excited about getting phone calls for two universities I’ve been trying to get into for administrative work for years now. But now I’m super anxious! I will actually have 2 interviews on Monday—took the whole day off. I hope this isn’t a terrible idea… But the one university, a branch of a Big 10 school, sent me an ITINERARY! So my entire morning will involve meeting with 1 committee, then the entire staff of the department, meeting with another admin for a while, then testing (which is another question I’ll be asking separately), then meeting with the interim dean. Is this typical for an administrative assistant (closer to entry-level) to have a 2.5-3 hour long interview? Other interviews I’ve had for similar roles have been 30-45 minutes. The end. I do think it’s a main desk role, but I’m really anxious now knowing that it’s going to go on and on and on… Anything I should consider before I go in on Monday?

    1. fposte*

      That would be a whole lot at my university. Our admin stuff is mostly civil service, so that doesn’t really count, but I’ve been involved in equivalent level hires and it’s usually phone screen, hour or so interview, meet manager.

        1. Academic Librarian*

          This is not unusual if you will be interacting with different departments. It is also not unusual if this is entry level now but there is potential growth.

    2. it happens*

      Remember, you’re interviewing them as well and they’ve already told you a lot about themselves with this marathon schedule. Your best preparation is going over your resume and their job description to make sure that you can tell a concise story about how you’ve handled anything they’ve asked for. Maybe have a mental list of the three most important qualities you’re looking for in a work environment/job – and then look for how this place rates on them.
      Be on time, be yourself, good luck

    3. Rowan*

      In my experience, not typical but if there is one class of people on this planet you can rely upon for bloated and unnecessary bureaucratic processes it’s universities! Remember it’s a point-scoring exercise and write the most important things you want them to know about you and make sure you communicate them. If they like you more than someone else but you fail to mention that you’re great at important job responsibility A and their second choice does mention it, they might have to hire the second person. Good luck!

    4. cuppa*

      I’ve learned that interview length has nothing to do with seniority. I’ve done interviews like this for part-time, low-wage jobs, and 30 minute interviews for management positions. It just depends on the culture and their interview process. It is good that they gave you an itinerary, though! To me, it shows that they take their hiring process seriously and are considerate of their candidates.

      Good luck!!

    5. Anon for this*

      Hi there! I’m an admin assistant at a university. I did meet with a committee (Chairs from each of the Departments I’d assist + Dean), with just the Dean, and I went on a campus tour…and I was an internal candidate! The whole shebang took about as long as you estimate. There wasn’t a test for me, so I don’t know what that would entail. I think you should prepare for it like any other interview.

      Alison’s guide (the free one, in the right hand column) outlines what to do really well. I know it seems daunting to have ALL THE INTERVIEW ACTIVITIES, but this is a chance for them to interview you AND for you to see what they’re all about. I would have loved to have met with another admin, especially someone at my level. I think there have been posts on what to ask potential peers, but I can’t for the love of me think of what they are right now…

      Good luck! I hope it goes well for you :)

    6. The Strand*

      No, it’s not typical, an hour or so is more typical, but maybe the job requires unusual skills (such as an assistant to a VIP – sounds like you could be meeting with a dean), or you’ll be working with multiple departments or groups.

    7. Melissa*

      I don’t know if it’s typical, but I’ve done several all-day interviews myself! Academics really like long, multi-part interviews.

      Don’t let the itinerary make you more nervous – I remember the first time I got an itinerary and I was like ‘holy crap’. It’s actually a good thing, because you know what order things will happen in, and who you will see.

      If they’re smart they will have scheduled you in some breaks in between. If they have not scheduled you breaks, ask to go to the bathroom, even if you don’t have to. You can take 5 minutes in the bathroom to decompress, splash water on your face (if you’re wearing makeup maybe bring some water in a spray can?) and breathe. Don’t be shy about asking for water, too! (Although usually they’ll offer it.) If you’re prone to low sugar or migraines you might want to bring a granola bar or something. Me, the stress starts getting to me and I usually need some sugar to perk me up. The last interview I took some Excedrin Migraine right before the interviews started because I KNEW I’d have a migraine by the end of the day. (Aaaaaand my interviewer walked in while I was taking it. I was momentarily embarrassed, but he said he got them too!)

      If you know who you are meeting ahead of time, maybe make yourself a little “cheat sheet” to remind you who they are and some basic credentials. Wear something with pockets, and keep it in your pocket, so when you go to the bathroom you can take a quick look before your next interview.

      Also, in my experience interviewers have never looked down on me for bringing a small notebook with all my questions written down, and so I can take notes. (In fact, one of my interviewers complimented me on it last time, lol.) When you’re going to be there all day, it can be hard to remember what you wanted to ask, so if you don’t already bring them you might want to bring one!

      I agree with everyone else in that these longer interviews give you a chance to ask all the questions you wanted to know, and maybe even ask the same question from different people to get different perspectives on the answer (I asked several people what the culture was like on the team, and got similar answers, which was a good sign). In 30-45 minute interviews I often feel like I don’t get to ask everything I wanted to, but by the time a full-day interview is over I sometimes feel like I’m running out of things to ask!

      1. Melissa*

        By water in a spray can I meant like one of those little travel Evian bottles beauty stores are starting to sell.

      2. Shannon*

        All of this.

        I’d also do some basic research on each department listed that you’ll be interviewing with. If a department has its own social media page, I’d glance over it just to know what they’ve been up to lately. I’d probably make up a few dossiers on each department. “The Department of Tea Pot Medical Science is headed by Dr. Jane. Dr. Jane has made a career out of studying tea pot crack repair. The department has an interdepartmental tea time at 3 on Thursdays.”

      3. Slimy Contractors*

        These are such good suggestions–thank you for writing all this down. A cheat sheet in the pocket is brilliant–I’m rotten with names.

    8. april ludgate*

      That’s the type I had for my current job at a college. It was three hours and included a building tour, a committee interview, a campus tour, an interview where anyone in the department could come in and ask me questions, and a meeting with the dean. Also, no one warned me that it would be so involved, I should have asked how long it would take but it was my first time interviewing for professional jobs and I didn’t even think of asking.

      All of my advice is more practical than interview-based, but here it is: Find out about the parking situation before you go, a lot of colleges have designated lots for visitors to campus, so make sure you know where to park and if you have to pay/obtain some sort of permit to park there. And definitely arrive early to make sure you have time to find your way from wherever you park to the building you need. Wear comfortable shoes if it seems like you might be walking across campus, or in case they decide to give you a tour. Dress in something that won’t make you too warm in case they do bring you outside for a tour, or to walk to another building for a different section of the interview.

    9. Ama*

      If you’re really going to be working with/supporting all the people you’re meeting, it might not be so bad. When I was in a similar position, I actually wish I had met the big boss and some of the faculty I’d been supporting (I interviewed with only the admin director and two coworkers in the administrative department), as I would have had a much better idea what the job truly entailed — they inadvertently gave me the impression most of my job would be admin support with very little faculty support when it was much closer to a 50/50 split.

      When we hired a new admin director, it was definitely an all day thing — maybe they just haven’t interviewed for a lower level position in a while?

      1. some1*

        As an admin, I agree. Being a good fit to the team on both sides is so crucial for admin roles.

    10. twig*

      I work at a university in an admnistrative position, and while my interview wasn’t like this, I’ve coordinated interviews for Administrative Faculty (In my case, usually IT related positions such as server admin or data warehouse analyst).

      For us, the purpose of these long interviews is so that everyone who will be working with the candidate will get a chance to meet them. Department meetings (IE meet with the critical systems group) are fairly casual — and a great opportunity for the candidate to ask about day to day operations, how the area is managed etc. We look for someone who will be a good fit personality-wise as well as skill-wise. this is your chance to interview back — to make sure that the place is a good fit for YOU. Ask about management styles, day to day operations (What does a typical day look like) etc. This is your chance to get it from the horses mouth — rather than what the manager *thinks* the day to day is like (sometimes they know and sometimes they don’t)

      Be prepared to have multiple people ask you variations on the same question — it is not a trick or some interview technique — it’s just multiple people having the same curiosities. Don’t let that throw you off. If you end up repeating yourself, it’s not a big deal.

      And Good Luck on your interview!

    11. Former Higher Ed Admin*

      I worked in admin for a large university in a former life. They required all admin staff to pass testing. It was spelling/grammar, filing (of all things – but this was a long time ago), and finally a typing test. Not sure if that’s what they mean by testing? You had to score a certain percentage on the tests to be considered. I think a lot of schools have moved away from this now, but I’m not surprised there are some hold-outs. Good luck! I loved working in higher ed!

      1. Academic Librarian*

        I am seconding the prepare for the academic environment interview…
        In your bag that you carry with you…
        1. a notebook
        2. two mechanical pencils (pens leak, lose their caps)
        3. a protein bar
        4. headache, migraine medicine (what every your substance of choice)
        5. a small bottle of water- i think there are 4 ounce ones now
        6.bandaids, handcreme, lozenges, (no gum) breath mints
        7. small packet of tissues
        8. eye glass cleaner packet (if you wear glasses)
        9. list of who you are meeting with, titles, departments
        10. wet-wipes travel pack
        11. Two or three copies of your resume
        12. A page with three references and their contact information

        I think you can ask about the test- ask what topics will be covered.

  5. TCO*

    Does anyone else ever worry that they’ve taken a job that’s actually a step backwards in their career growth?

    I started a new job about a year ago in a somewhat different field than where I had worked before. My office is very high-performing and holds ourselves to a ridiculously high standard. I’m used to being a top performer in past jobs, and that usually comes with quite a bit of autonomy to run my initiatives as I see fit. I’m a natural leader and strategic thinker, so it’s important to me to have some discretion in how I go about meeting my objectives.

    Here, I get so little autonomy, which made sense when I was new but seems ridiculous now that I’m a year in. I am told I am exceeding expectations, yet I’m so micromanaged. Probably 80% of what I write (e-mails, meeting agendas and minutes, reports—not exactly big stuff here) is reviewed by 1-2 people before it’s sent out. I don’t get the opportunities I used to for program management, public speaking, etc. In my volunteer life I’m getting recruited and paid to speak at out-of-state conferences. In my work life I go to many meetings where I’m expected to distribute agendas and take minutes, but not say much of anything. There are always higher-up coworkers in these meetings who get the “speaking parts.”

    This micromanagement has eroded my self-confidence and I worry that I’m actually progressing backwards in my leadership skills. I’ve always thought that my next job after this would be management-level, but at this rate I’m never going to get the experience and resume-builders I need to be ready for that. I can’t figure out why they hired (and paid a premium for) experienced employees with track records of leadership and success… only to squander our talents.

    I’m still trying to figure out what I want to tell my bosses and what opportunities to ask for, so I’m planning to discuss this with them once my thoughts are a little more collected. In the meantime, I’m just venting.

    1. kozinskey*

      Are you in my job? I have so many of the same complaints you list here. My boss regularly tells me I’m a rockstar & am doing well, yet micromanages everything I do, even though I’m in a role that ostensibly should have a fair amount of autonomy. After a year and a half of this, I’ve accepted that I’m not going to get the experience I expected out of this job and that my next job will have to be something very different if I want to end up where I’m hoping to be in 1o years. I’m just waiting to hit the 3-year mark here before I start my job hunt, and I’m counting the days.

      It is really hard on my self-confidence and work habits to stay in this job, though. I absolutely feel your frustration & hope you can figure out a way to make the situation better.

      1. Carol*

        I had a similar situation. I had finally had enough of being reminded of some extremely basic aspects of my job despite having been in the position for well over a year and never having made a mistake relating to those aspects I kept getting reminded about. I took the time during a review (while I was being praised for my accuracy) and told my boss that I was surprised to hear this because of all the micro-managing I’d been subjected to. I also told him I found it disconcerting and that I was somewhat offended to be told the same basic thing over and over when I had never once failed to do things exactly as I was told the first time. I don’t think he realized he was doing that and did back off on me after that conversation.

    2. Ad Astra*

      Any chance you work in an industry that’s more heavily regulated than your past industries? In my current (newish) gig, everything I write goes through 1-2 people, and some things require more like 9 people to sign off. The trickiest part is identifying who exactly needs to sign off on a project, and I get that one wrong a lot because I don’t know everyone’s expertise quite yet. It’s frustrating, but I’m coming to terms with the fact that this company does everything by committee.

      1. TCO*

        Nope, it’s not regulated… but many of our leadership come from a field that is, so this is “just their style.” They’ve all worked here 10-20 years and so can’t see that this level of perfection and micromanagement is abnormal and actually counterproductive.

        1. Ad Astra*

          That makes sense. In my office, I often suspect that lower-profile projects don’t really need so many eyes on them, but I think the environment of constant regulation has shaped many of my coworkers’ (and especially supervisors’) work styles. Everyone in this office has a desperate need to know everything that’s going on the minute it happens, but none of them have enough time in the day to actually monitor each and every project, which leads to a lot of sitting around waiting on busy, important people to approve things that are really not that important.

          I try not to take it personally. Many of them are aware of how frustrating this setup can be and don’t want me to enable that behavior, but it can be tough.

          1. TCO*

            You articulate this so well. The problem with my office is that our leadership doesn’t really see why this setup is a problem–they want to be enabled to continue this way.

            1. Ad Astra*

              In my last job, I could pretty much do anything I want without approval, so it’s been quite an adjustment. On the bright side, I now have lots and lots of people around to catch any typos or mistakes before they ever see the light of day.

      2. edj3*

        Yes, I wondered the same thing. My industry is highly regulated and so everything we produce is reviewed multiple times. Add in the can’t miss deadlines and it can look like we’re micro managing when we’re not. It’s just required scrutiny.

    3. steve g*

      I left a job after a month this year because of the same thing. They knew damn well I was managing a whole portfolio of customers + spoke at some conferences + fought a few regulatory cases (as an analyst because they were numbers-driven cases)….yet they didn’t even let me do the same level of work as when I was entry level at the competitor. Such BS. I’m still PO’d.

    5. Beancounter in Texas*

      I think highlighting to them that you’re very comfortable and eager to get back to XYZ tasks of Former Job at Current Job and how you think it can benefit the company may put you back on their radar.

      My current boss was so focused on hiring a beancounter with expertise in QuickBooks, that he completely overlooked my experience with HR responsibilities (common in small businesses). So when I asked him to hand over the long-overdue HR project he kept promising to complete, he was blindsided by the fact that I had some HR knowledge that would be useful to him! By his reaction, I would swear (to this day!) he didn’t even read my resume. But he had to of read it – he just flat ignored anything outside of the scope of the beancounting job as he envisioned it.

  6. petpet*

    I’m so frustrated with my boss I could cry. I approached him about a promotion last November and he told me he definitely saw me growing into a higher role and we’d discuss it during performance reviews in March or April. In mid-April, I asked when we were doing reviews and he said by the end of May. He completely forgot to do our reviews until I asked him, so they got done in early June. He told me he had official approval to submit my promotion paperwork but it would take “a couple months” to fill out. This week, six weeks after that, I asked for an update. He hasn’t started the paperwork at all and said his goal is to submit it by the end of August so it’ll go through in September or October. OCTOBER.

    If he had told me last November that it would take nearly a YEAR for this to go through, I would have had a talk with him about my expectations. Instead, every time I ask him about it, I get told “in a couple months” and a pat on the head. And I just smile and say thank you because I don’t think I can tell him about my frustration without getting incredibly flustered and emotional. My morale is in the gutter and I’ve been trying to find another job basically since I started here two years ago, but no luck yet.

    1. LadyMountaineer*

      You may not like this answer but you probably need to leave. I just promoted out of my division instead of within because my boss did exactly this. See if you can do a lateral transfer–something. GTFO!

      1. petpet*

        That’s definitely what I want to do. I’ve never been satisfied with my job – I finished a master’s degree in Teapot Design and the only job I was able to land was this one, where I’m a Teapot Assistant 2. I’m trying to get promoted to Teapot Assistant 3, which is still depressingly low-level compared to what I want to do, but it’s at least a little more money.

        I thought when I took this job that it would be a stopgap until I found a Real Career Job, but two years later, here I am. I did have a promising phone interview recently, so all my fingers are crossed for that job.

    2. Hlyssande*

      If you check back at the end of August and he still hasn’t done it, it sounds like he’s not actually intending to do it at all. There have been more than a few letters where bosses have been stringing employees along and this sounds depressingly familiar to that.

      :(

    3. Bend & Snap*

      My old boss did this to me and I gave my notice the day he finally promoted me. Served him right jerking me around. Good people wi find other opportunities if employers don’t keep their word.

      I hope you find something else soon.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I wonder if your manager is procrastinating because promotions only go through in October and completing the paperwork sooner won’t make a difference.
      It stinks.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      Sadly, this is SO NORMAL. It shouldn’t be, but promotions and raises often take SO LONG to get through because the boss’s priority is to do whatever projects she has on her plate, not push raises and title changes through. Except that part of her job as a manager is to push it through!

      Good luck finding another job — because I think that’s what it takes with most managers who drag their feet like this.

  7. Retail Lifer*

    I’m scheduled for a second interview for a leasing position with an apartment complex (slight pay cut, questionable neighborhood, not sure about the benefits, but an easy commute!) and I have a phone interview for a customer service manager for a company that, according to its BBB reviews, is about as sketchy as they come. Apparently good pay and benefits, though, and it’s REALLY close to me. Beggars can’t be choosers. I’d take either one if offered.

    1. I'm a Little Teapot*

      :-/ That’s frustrating.

      If you end up having a choice, go for the leasing position. Working for a company with a reputation for sketchiness might make you look bad, unfortunately.

        1. Retail Lifer*

          The leasing job has a few bad reviews on Glassdoor but it’s no worse than my current company. The one with the bad BBB rating has mostly good or decent reviews from employees on Glassdoor, strangely enough.

      2. anon for this*

        If you are talking about a professional reputation, I can tell you after being let go from a company that has a horrible reputation in my industry, interviewing with respected companies and orgs was actually easier, because they assumed I left because it’s such a poo-show.

  8. determined*

    Have you ever gotten a job offer – a decent one in fact – but you had to turn it down?

    Last week, after months of searching, I got an offer. I really liked the work and the people, but taking the job would have meant working more hours, no 401k, and slightly higher health insurance. I turned it down.

    I’m currently employed but ready for the next step. It’s encouraging to know that I’m employable but it’s painful to feel like you are so close but still so far.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I kinda think that is awesome. It means you value yourself highly and are secure in your career goals!

    2. Elizabeth West*

      YES.
      I got an offer before I found this job for a position in a field I wanted to work in (criminal court), with potential bosses I really liked (who liked me). It would have opened up further possibilities and of course, the work would have been really interesting.

      The pay, including money taken out for mandatory health insurance, was so low that after paying all my bills, I would have had about $14 left over at the end of the month. Raises were frozen and were not likely for another five years, if ever. If the insurance went up or I had any other expenses, I would have been screwed. And this was after I had cut all my expenses to the bone–it just wasn’t feasible.

      I felt awful about turning it down, but I couldn’t have lived on it. It wasn’t much more than unemployment.

    3. Retail Lifer*

      A few years ago I turned down an otherwise great job offer (better pay, much more interesting work, some opportunities to move up) because the hours were slightly worse and the health insurance was $300 a month (I was paying about $90 at the time). It was the only offer I had received after months of searching but I just couldn’t do it. The benefits didn’t outweigh the negatives enough.

    4. Ama*

      I may have told this story here before, but my dad was approached by his current firm ages ago with a partner track job that would have been a huge step up in his career, but would have meant long and unflexible hours that would have seriously impacted his quality of life, and the benefits were lower enough than his then-job that the pay increase wasn’t really that much. So he told them no thanks, but also said he’d be interested if they’d ever consider adding a non-partner track position with that set of responsibilities.

      Three years later, they came back with the exact position he’d asked for. He’s been there almost twenty years now.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        In the 1950’s, my dad turned down a job doing the blue prints for Locally Famous Place. The reason, they offered to pay him by giving him a car. He already had a car, he wanted cash. He turned the job down and that must have been the right move. It never dawned on the people to liquidate the car and hand my father the cash. Now how hard would that be? My father felt it was indicative of other problems in the future.

    5. S*

      Yep. I’d only been searching for about a month, but I got an offer– top of their range for that position, good benefits, decent hours, and I really liked the people I interviewed with. I just couldn’t make myself take it because it would require staying in the city I was in, and I just could not live there anymore without wanting to scream. Not to mention the pay was still too low for me to have any savings in the 2nd highest COL region in the US.

      I ended up taking a job that paid even more in my hometown (slightly lower COL) with similar benefits, a shorter commute, but longer hours.

    6. Solid B student*

      I recently turned down a job that I REALLY REALLY wanted to take. Good job, good people, good supervision. The emotional me wanted to take it. The analytical me realized that it probably would not be the strategic or financial move. Sadly, I declined. I still have (small) regrets.

    7. Sara*

      Yeah, I had to do this a couple of weeks ago. I really liked the boss and team members I got to meet with, and the position was very much in line with my career goals, but it was a five-month temporary assignment with a weird pay structure during the initial 60-day probation period. Overall, the net pay over the length of the assignment was comparable to what I make now, but the probationary rate would have left me about $600 short each month over those three months – so even though I’d make that up with the significantly higher, post-probation rate, it just didn’t seem responsible to commit to three months in the red. (Also, the job was temporary, and for all that I’m ready to move up in my career, I’m not really interested in being on the hunt for another new job come December.)

    8. over educated and underemployed*

      Yes, earlier this month. I was excited about the position itself and it would have been a huge move up for me, but it would have had really serious work life balance issues that I decided I didn’t want to take on with a relatively young baby, and when I got the offer itself it was for a lower title and pay than I’d been told while interviewing, but same responsibilities. I am really hoping it means I can be competitive for other positions that might be less perfect on paper but better for my life overall.

    9. Silver*

      Last year when the maternity leave contract I was on was coming to an end I interviewed for a company in the same field with a very famous CEO. They offered me slightly more money but there were so many red flags during the interview process that I ended up turning them down (with nothing else in the pipeline).

      6 months later I have a permanent job with a company I was doing the maternity leave contract for as someone else decided to leave. So so happy I said no.

  9. edj3*

    Help!

    I manage a fairly large team, and I’ve been with the company just a couple of months now. We are up against some inviolate deadlines and my team has been working insane hours to meet the deadlines.

    While I can’t change the deadlines, and in fact had nothing to do with the work planning process that got us here, I would still like to do something that might help my associates know that I see how much they’re working (and we won’t do this again, not if I have anything to say or do about it).

    So what advice do you have from either side of the desk? If you’ve been on a team like this, what would have helped you feel appreciated while you were working such crazy hours? If you’ve managed a team like this, what have you done that helped with morale?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Would it be possible to order dinner for the office when everyone is working late?

      Also look at giving them a couple of comp days when the deadline has passed, so they can relax a bit.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        +1

        I love food, so free food really boosts my spirits. Do more than just order pizza though. Get a good restaurant to cater it.

    2. Brett*

      Food. Get them really good food and have it brought into the office. (Make sure to ask around about any special requests so people can deal with dietary restrictions; it sucks to be the one person who cannot eat because of some issue with the food brought in). It is a great morale booster when dealing with long hours and it saves a ton of time that makes it easier to keep working. It can get a bit expensive, so be sure you have the budget or can handle the out of pocket expenditure before promising anything.
      If you end up working late night hours, be sure to schedule in some downtown. When we have 24 hour shifts, the late night people appreciate getting a 30-60 minute break to watch a tv show or sports event.

        1. Nanc*

          When you’re alone and life is makin’ you lonely you can always go . . . Downtown! (you know someone was going to say it–and great, I’ve just given myself an earworm)

    3. Amber Rose*

      Coffee/food if possible. When we’re in a crunch and skipping breaks, the boss tries to bring in sandwiches or pizza or something.

      If that’s not feasible because of how many people you have or the cost, a quick email or announcement of gratitude is fine. If it’s sincere, a thank you tends to cheer people up.

    4. Bend & Snap*

      Comp time after the fact or as needed. Be very generous with time off! Nothing sucks more than working 80 hour weeks and then havjng to use pto

    5. anonanonanon*

      Can you give them some “unofficial” vacation days to take after the project is finished? We just had our busy season at work and it required longer hours than usual and really tight deadlines. My boss’ boss gave each of us a few “unofficial” vacation days, which was nice.

      If that’s not an option, food is always great.

    6. cuppa*

      These are all great ideas. The other one I would say is single people out and tell them that you know how hard they’re working and that you appreciate it. Do not send a generic floofy email to the whole team.

    7. Ad Astra*

      I see some good ideas already, but here’s my suggestion: While the craziness is going on, make it a point to thank people and acknowledge the craziness somewhat informally. If you can do anything to make the employees’ lives easier (bring in food, provide taxi service home, loosen the dress code, maybe tell them to cancel or ignore some of the daily/weekly tasks that don’t need immediate attention), absolutely do it and make it clear that you’re doing this as a thank-you for their hard work.

      Once this is all over, have a meeting or send out a formal email thanking them again, and tell them what you’re doing to prevent this situation from happening again. Then, if you can get them comp time or a paid day off or something, do it.

      1. Ama*

        Yes — I didn’t realize how big a difference this made until I got to my current employer where they actually make a point both during and after our busiest times to acknowledge that X,Y, and Z project have everyone working incredibly hard, they know it’s been rough, and they really appreciate it (this is also usually followed in an email announcement by “Also there are snacks in the breakroom!”)

        Coming from a place where I often felt like even the people who thanked me for my work didn’t have a clue about half of my workload, it’s amazing how huge a difference just being super specific in your praise helps.

      2. S*

        Yes to the dress code thing. My old job adhered to “tech-casual” dress codes, so working late nights was never too uncomfortable (I made sure to wear soft-denim jeans on those days), but I imagine that for anyone working in business casual or even business formal dress, being able to loosen the tie, take the jacket off, maybe slip into the bathroom to put on a looser top, would be really appreciated.

        I offered to help out at an off-site event an hour away once. My manager was leading the event as a separate project from our usual work; I didn’t get home until past midnight. She gave me permission to come in at 11 the next day. I don’t think she could’ve thanked me in any other way that would’ve been more appreciated.

      3. zora*

        I would say more than just an email thank you, a printed letter or even notecard thank you to each person. It’s even better for me to be able to stick that on the bulletin board over my desk and have the visual reminder of that time I was really appreciated for kicking butt.

    8. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Yes to everything everyone has said so far. I just wanted to add that food doesn’t have to be meals. We often have an abundance of Costco-sized assortments of snacks sitting around when we have to work nights and weekends, and for a lot of people, it helps keep them focused if they aren’t starving in between meals.

    9. FJ*

      +1 on the food and ‘unofficial’ vacation days once it’s done.
      And, be generous on vacation days the rest of the time. If there are crunch times, be really flexible when it’s not crunch time.

      Also, when I’ve been working long hours, occasionally my managers have been in the office or on the chat system then too, and just hearing a “I know it sucks, but thanks for all the hard work” – especially at 10pm or whenever late hour when I’m working… that goes a long way.

    10. The Strand*

      Coffee, breakfast if they come in super early (e.g. 6 AM), dinner if they’re there late (past 6).

      Give them a break at some point that allows them to laugh a little for fifteen minutes. YMMV, but it could be funny hats or toys. Silly Putty went over big in my office.

    11. AdAgencyChick*

      Does everyone have to work late every night, or is there a way to rotate who stays late so that everyone is able to have one or two normal workdays per week? If there’s a way to make that happen, I think people really appreciate having an evening of break.

      If you can’t — let them order food, and don’t hold the budget to just pizza or sandwiches. Spot bonuses if you have the budget. A drawer filled with snacks that people can dip into when they need it.

    12. ginger ale for all*

      I second the food idea and also send out personal e-mails or notes of appreciation to the team and let them know that you have noted how hard they are working and will be placing a note in their files so when the yearly evaluations start, they will have that brownie point in there.

    13. Lucky*

      I think the food/treat suggestion is a good one, but also maybe you can insist that everyone take a break for an hour or even a half hour to just walk around and unplug. It doesn’t even have to be everyone leaving/unplugging at the same time, but make sure everyone knows that they can *and should* take a mental break. I’ve worked those insane hours to get a project done, and having even 15 minutes to walk around the building helps to keep focus and keep going.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Taking breaks means that more work can be done, not less. By working insane hours, they’re already working less efficiently, so encourage the breaks, since that will at least help.

      2. Shannon*

        Don’t “insist.” Do offer. If I’m working long hours, I don’t want to feel forced into taking a break I may not want to. An hour long mandatory break would just make me angry, because I want to do my job so I can go home. I’d rather have the option of having an hour long break or four fifteen minuet breaks. Your workers are adults, give them opportunities, don’t mandate it (unless you are legally required to do so).

      3. zora*

        I don’t think it’s exactly ‘insisting’ but I had one project where the lead did ‘5 minute dance breaks’ .. blasted music and we all danced around for 5 minutes. It was hilarious and energizing and just contributed to a good feeling of us all being a team and being supported by our manager.

    14. GOG11*

      Everything that’s been offered up by others is wonderful, so I have nothing to add there, but I do want to say huge kudos to you for being the kind of boss who recognizes and rewards hard work. You’re awesome, and we need more bosses like you.

    15. Frances*

      All these suggestions are great! If I were on your team, I’d also love it if you were passing word up the chain of command about the work we were doing – in my organization that sort of visibility is key to promotion, so that could have real long-term impact on your staffs’ careers.

      1. Ad Astra*

        Great point! If your company has an intranet blog or a newsletter or something, be sure to share some information about the Big Huge Project your department is working on, and then share Big Huge Project’s successes when it’s all over.

        Edj3, the fact that you’re bothering to ask for suggestions at all shows you care and are probably at least an ok boss to work for. Making sure your employees know that you care about their quality of life and appreciate their hard work will earn you a lot of loyalty and defuse a lot of frustration among your team.

      2. Jillociraptor*

        Yes. When I was in this position, the best thing our project leader did was have senior leaders send us all emails and voicemails to thank us and recognize us. It meant so much to know that my work was visible to senior leaders on other teams and our CEO.

    16. MaryMary*

      Food and comp time/additional flexibility would be great, and I agree with the folks that said to thank people and to be specific. I’d also cc your bosses on the thank you note, so it’s not just thanks, it’s positive feedback documented to the people who decide their raises and bonuses. If you can work it out, have some of the big bosses stop by to acknowledge the team too. It’s great that you as their immediate manager recognize their hand work, but it’s even better if leadership does too.

    17. HM in Atlanta*

      If there’s anyone on your team not pulling their weight, hold them accountable and do it quickly. If you have to fire them, do it. If someone on another team, that’s doing stuff you need is doing crappy work, kick it back to other team’s manager. Don’t let your team have to do that team’s work as well. If it causes business problems for the other team’s manager, that’s life. Work as much/more than your team (you probably are, but just in case). The workload will still suck for you and team, but you be a very strong team. As a new manager, you will have made your case for delivering to the business AND supporting your team.

      1. edj3*

        Great advice–thankfully, we have strong performers but yes, there’s opportunity for improvement with some systems so that’s a conversation I need to have with the group that owns the system.

    18. edj3*

      Thank you so much for these thoughtful replies.

      To answer some of the questions, no, this isn’t shift work. We are delivering products so the hours are driven by that, not by needing to have butts in seats for set hours. Historically, early summer has been absolutely awful for the team in terms of workload, and then more manageable at other times of the year. Now that I can provide data about the utilization rates of my team (and the associated costs tbh), I should have plenty of backing to level out the workload year round. We’ll never be twiddling our thumbs but we don’t need to have everyone on the brink of stroking out either.

      You guys have some great suggestions which are also confirming that I’m on the right path. I’ve been using our internal recognition program liberally, and letting my team know that while I can’t change the current insanity, I will do everything possible to never be in this position again.

      I love the idea of Costco sized snack packages, so I’ll grab some this weekend. They know they can work from home pretty much any time as long as that works for them completing the projects, and I’ve canceled or excused them from some of the meetings which would interrupt them when they’re hitting their groove.

      The last week in July is big for us—I think I’ll throw us a party after we hit our deadlines. And don’t worry, introverts, I don’t mean a party that would make you cringe. I just mean a celebration with ice cream or something.

      1. Teacher Recruiter*

        “letting my team know that while I can’t change the current insanity, I will do everything possible to never be in this position again.”

        This. In addition to all the other great ideas, you’re smart to make sure and lay out why they won’t be in this position again. You don’t want to lose your top performers who think there will never be light at the end of the tunnel.

      2. zora*

        oh totally, being excused from less-urgent meetings is HUGE! Well done on that one.

        And here’s my vision of a perfect “party”.. You announce “Friday afternoon 12-5 is our Thank You Party. You put on music in the office, have food put out, maybe even some games or activities people can do. But also it’s in the office, so each person’s level of participation is voluntary. Some people like to hang out the whole time. But I like the option of hanging out, eating some food, and then taking snacks back to my desk and catching up on work for a while. And people have permission to just leave early that day if I just want to go home, but eveyone is getting paid for 12-5 regardless.

        My biggest pet peeve is being told we’re having a ‘party’ but it starts at 5:30pm, bc they want to get as much work out of us as possible, but also cut into our actual personal time. Ugh.

        1. Artemesia*

          If I have been working extra long hours — and I have done that — then the last thing I want is a ‘party’ at work when I could be home doing what I want to do.

          1. zora*

            Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me ;o) But that’s what I tried to say above, if it wasn’t clear, that I love when work parties are optional.

    19. Jill 2*

      Comp days, 100%. That you are allowed to take at the first opportunity when things die down. They did this at my first job, and it spoiled me; I thought this was the norm everywhere.

      I’m currently a member of a team going through this right now, and I wish my manager and overall leadership would do more to even verbally acknowledge us. Comp days would be a miracle here; no one even takes vacation, so it’s not going to happen.

      We have one manager who is the only one that “gets” is. She has done lunch runs every day for our team, and for the people she manages, has become insanely protective of them and schedules them in shifts. As more work piles on, she holds firm and says we need to ask for more resources because her team is maxed out. She’s the ONLY one that does this. I would work for her in a heartbeat.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is really important, be sure to tell your higher ups how awesome your team is. If you can give them meaningful specifics then relay that information, too.

        Show concern. This can be as simple as holding a door for someone with an armload of binders and papers. Or it can mean periodically checking to see that everyone has what they need. Wear the attitude of service- “you guys are knocking it out of the park, you need something I want to know immediately!” If you see bottlenecks forming within your group, go over and help that person who is having difficulty- if this is possible to do.

    20. Bun*

      Don’t forget to let them see *you* working as hard as they are! Come in when they’re coming in, handle the smaller tasks so they don’t have to, make sure that admin work is routed through you so they can focus.

      Inject whatever you can into the project to make it feel like you’re all pulling together. On one particularly ridiculous project a few years ago, we set up a “Best Project Quotes” board and recorded the funny or particularly telling things people said during the project. At the post-mortem we held a Quote Reading and drawing for some silly, dollar-store prizes. Having an entry on the Best Quotes board became a sort of badge of honor, and it helped people keep perspective about the stress.

      1. Lia*

        This this THIS. I work in an office that has a number of emergency, high-priority projects that require all hands on deck, and our boss stays here with us to help. It makes a BIG difference in morale to know he is here working as hard as we are.

        I have worked in offices where this was not the case (boss would bail right at 5, etc, while the rest of the staff stayed late) and it makes a difference.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Echoing- One project I had involved my department head, my supervisor and myself working on it. The crew worked like wildfire- they were so productive it was amazing. The message is subtle but it works- “Wow, this must be really important the boss is working WITH us.” The harder you work, the harder they will work.

    21. Clever Name*

      Yes to food. And if you are able to do this, let them know that you will be putting a plan in place to prevent the last-minute rush. My company does a post-mortem on certain projects to determine what went wrong and how we can fix it moving forward. I really admire my company that they can basically say, “We screwed this up, and here is how we will ensure that this doesn’t happen in the future”.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Post-mortems are a great idea. Let people know you are interested in doing this and ask them to each come up with one solid idea for improvements for the next time. Don’t make it mandatory. Keep it light and easy. They will blow you away with what they think of.

  10. Pill Helmet*

    I applied for a job a while back and got through the first round. At the time they were just fielding candidates for future openings and keeping them on file. They just got back to me and said there is an opening, but I’m no longer available. My husband is available though and he is actually more qualified than I am for this position.

    He wants to apply but the job is no longer posted. Would it be out of line to give him the email address of the woman I am corresponding with so he can contact her and send his resume? If not, do I mention anything about this to her? I’m thinking I should stay out of it beyond giving him the contact.

    1. fposte*

      I’d go the other way around (and would have done it at their letting me know about an opening)–“I’m not available, but my husband works in this field and not only has the Steeping Credential but also Lid Certification–would you like his contact info?”

      In other words, you give the employer the option of contacting your husband rather than sharing the employer’s information without their approval.

      2. zora*

        This, but I wouldn’t just “ask” and then have to have another round of emails to get the info. I would edit this to say “I’m not available, but my husband works in this field and not only has the Steeping Credential but also Lid Certification–I have attached his resume and contact info if you are interested.”

    2. KJR*

      I don’t think there’s any harm in passing along her e-mail address, and explaining how he got it. As an HR Manager, I would appreciate getting the resume of a qualified person in my in-box if during a search. I certainly wouldn’t be offended by it. I don’t think you really have any to lose here. Good luck!!

  11. Making the Jump to Manager*

    My team is undergoing some restructuring, and as a result, we are adding two mid-level positions that will have some mentoring/supervisory responsibilities. The positions are only open to internal candidates, so my peers (there are 6 of us) are essentially all interviewing for these promotions.

    I don’t have direct supervisory experience (though I have related exp.), and am hoping to make a good case during my interviews. Has anyone else successfully navigated this jump? What questions can I expect? Any useful language that I can employ?

    1. FJ*

      I’m trying to make this jump too, to an official manager position. Curious to see the other replies too!
      I sorta made it once before, from being a regular engineer to lead engineer for a major project, but it wasn’t a formal process. Have you been a lead on any projects? Especially for an internal promotion where upper level managers would know you, being able to highlight that you were lead on xyz project and you would be a good lead full time seems like a good angle to take. I would also try to highlight problems that you solved (someone being late, difficult coworker, etc) , if you think you’d encounter those sorts of problems again.

      1. Making the Jump to Manager*

        Good ideas! I have been a lead in a couple of areas, as well as having provided some innovations to the team that have helped us all be more efficient. I already had those on my list to talk about, but I like the way you framed it here, and think I could tweak the language to make it seem more managery.

        Is the opportunity to jump up for you impending, or something you’re still looking around for? Either way, hope you’re able to make the jump soon!

    2. Bun*

      I did this about 4 years ago. The questions in the interview were mostly about typical management situations:
      – How would you handle employee performance issues?
      – What do you see as the biggest challenges facing the new team?
      – What would you want to implement or improve in your first year in the position?

      Take a good look at what the new team is all about and the work that they will be done, and really think about how a manager can set that team up for success. Maybe the team needs better documentation or SOPs, or maybe they could benefit from partnerships with another department. Maybe they just need someone to be their front line of defense, or their liaison with another area.

      I got the position not by saying all the right manager-speak words, but by knowing the work and the people I would be supervising, and being honest and factual about how I would approach the position.

      1. Making the Jump to Manager*

        Thanks for the advice! I like the questions you mentioned. I’ll have to think of some good responses to those.

    3. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

      I became a manager earlier this year, and so far it’s going well[1].

      I guess it depends on your corporate culture, but at my company many people wish to actively avoid a management role. I did so myself for many years, but awhile back I decided that it might be worth trying it out[2]. I bring this up because a question you may wish to ask yourself is: are you sure you want this job? Do you know what the job entails? For that matter – are all 5 of your peers highly motivated to get this job? Is there a chance that there are two roles to fill, but you might be the only person interested in taking such a role?

      I did not have to compete to get a management role; instead, it was a matter of waiting until such a role opened up somewhere. However, this is not to say that they hand out management jobs to just anyone. I’ve worked for my company for many years, and my management knows that a) I’ve been in many Project Lead and other ‘leadership’ roles over the past umpteen years, b) performed well at it, plus c) I’m generally considered to be very good at the technical aspects of the job, and d) I have a reputation for being good with people[3] and e) trustworthy enough to be handed a chunk of responsibility. These things put me on the “minimally acceptable” list for management candidates.

      Obviously, the responsibilities that come with a manager job can vary quite a lot depending on your company and the kind of work you do. But at my job it really boils down to something like the reasons I listed above. Or allow me to attempt to restate it as: leadership experience plus being good at your job plus people skills.

      From the little I know about your circumstances, my guess is that previous leadership experience will count for a lot, as will your reputation for being good at your job. I mean, think about it from management’s point of view: they’re looking for someone they can trust, that they believe will be successful at the job. If you are really in a situation where 6 people are competing for 2 jobs and none of them stands out experience-wise, then my suspicion is that the decision is going to rely heavily upon the opinion your management has of each candidate.

      I hope this helps a bit. If this is a case where your management (or whoever it is that is making the selection decision) has known you and the other candidates for a long time already, there may not be a whole lot you can do to improve your chances: you’ve either been acting like ‘management material’ for the past one or two or 5 years, or you haven’t, and there’s probably not a lot you can say in a one-hour interview to change that.

      [1] I asked for a salary bump along with the new job responsibilities, and they recently handed me a 5% raise. I’m interpreting this as a sign that they’re happy with my performance.
      [2] Reading AAM was definitely an influential factor.
      [3] Yes, really!

  12. TheExchequer*

    I have been eagerly awaiting the open thread all week!

    I GOT A NEW JOB!

    They actually sent the offer last Friday, but misspelled my email. They didn’t notice until they called me on Tuesday to follow up.

    Said new job:
    – is closer to home
    – has benefits
    – pays more
    – does not (as far as I know) have people crazier than pants who are too overwhelmed to pay me on time

    Needless to say, I’m pretty stoked.

    I actually got super nervous giving my boss my two week notice! Want to know how he reacted? After asking if there was anything he could do to keep me, he asked me to push back my start date a week! Uh, no. In my world, favors like that are reserved for people who already think I’m perfect. ;) I tend not to give them out to people who make ridiculous commands like everyone else is allowed to make mistakes, but I am not. :P

    Now that the awkward part of telling my boss is over, I cannot stop smiling. July 31 is my last day here. Is there anything I should get or do for my new job?

    My family and I are going out to celebrate this weekend. It’s party time, people!

    Wooooooohoooo!

    4. Hlyssande*

      Woohooo!

      Make sure to take some time between the jobs to take good care of yourself. Relax and give yourself a mini vacation (even if it’s just that weekend) so you start the new job fresh and ready to go. If it were me, I’d get a massage and maybe some new bits for my wardrobe if I could swing it.

    5. Laurel Gray*

      Whoooo Congrats!

      And as far as anything you should do – RELAX between jobs! I don’t know if you have things to take care of related to wardrobe like dry cleaning or buying new work pieces/shoes or getting your car detailed but outside of that? RELAX! Do nothing! Watch TV/crack open a book/crack open a bottle(or case, no judgment here) of wine and RELAX! High five for not accommodating SoonToBeOldBoss’ request. This is all about you now! Good luck!

    12. NacSacJack*

      Yeah!! Congratulations. Advice for leaving: Pack up your personal stuff at your desk early. Take a little bit home every day. Make sure HR has your contact information. Ask when your last paycheck will come through and whether it will be mailed to you or directly deposited. Ask when your first paycheck from your new company will come through. It can take up to a month to get paid by your new company. If your checkstubs are electronic, print off last year’s last check stub and all this year’s check stubs. Ask when you can expect to get paid for your remaining vacation. Remember that your vacation gets taxed at something like 42%. Its considered a bonus, not pay. Convert or don’t convert your 401K to your next employer or to an IRA, need to make that decision. Find out what your COBRA costs will be. Find out when you have to decide to take the COBRA. Find out when the insurance on your next company kicks it. It might not kick in for 60 days and I think you have to decide to take COBRA within 45 days. Clear out your personal emails from your email account. Clear out your C: drive and your network drive of any personal emails or documents. If you need them or want them, send them home. Delete the documents/emails and the folders. If you did any volunteering or party organizing, make sure someone else is taking over and that they have all the pertinent emails, documents, contacts and supplies. If you have any keys and a laptop, hand them to your boss on your last day in your last hour. Maybe take a picture of him holding the laptop showing the serial #. Hand your ID to security on the way out. Document they have it.

      1. BenAdminGeek*

        You have 60 days to elect COBRA, and 45 days from the election date to make your first payment. So if you might need it but you’re not sure- wait 55 days to decide, then wait 40 days to pay. Then if your new benefits have kicked in and you didn’t need the coverage (and the gap is less than 3 months so you don’t trigger ACA penalties), you just don’t pay and you’re golden. And if you did need the coverage, then you pay for your COBRA and you’re golden. Win-win!

        1. Artemesia*

          This is how we bridged my husband from when my insurance ended with my retirement until he was eligible for Medicare. He had the full coverage but we never had to pay for it because he never used it — and once he had medicare we could drop the COBRA.

      2. Ama*

        This is such a good list! I’d add “make sure they tax any paid out vacation appropriately.” My last job did not — they basically just paid me as if I kept working, and as a result I had a $900 tax bill the following year

      3. Clever Name*

        Yep. When I gave my notice at my last job, I didn’t bother clearing out all my stuff because I was busy with fieldwork. I really wish I had because when my boss called me into his office 3 days later to inform me they were accepting my resignation “effective immediately” I had to clear out my desk right then and there. It sucked, as I had a ton of stuff.

      1. TheExchequer*

        The thought of them trying to get along without me is putting a wider grin on my face than it probably should. :D

  13. Brett*

    A few weeks ago I mentioned that my employer was requiring all of us to switch our LinkedIn profiles to our work email address, and then blocking links out from LinkedIn career/job emails. Turns out this is not just about LinkedIn.
    I was brought into a social media meeting with the chief executive’s office, and now know where this is going. All employees will be required to switch their social media profiles to either their work email address or to gmail addresses created and owned by the chief executive’s office. (The list included Facebook, Twitter, Google+, Vine, Instragram, reddit, Pinterest, and YouTube.)

    For employees who generate any content for official social media channels, they will access their personal accounts via a third-party social media management application and IT will control their passwords. So they won’t know the passwords to their own accounts, and password resets will go through work email. I checked, and password reset emails for social media are now blocked, so social media password resets will have to go through IT.

    1. Bekx*

      This is horrifying and I would be looking for a new job ASAP. My employer does not need to know the hair styles I try and fail at on Pinterest.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Hahaha, my employer would not know what to do with all the Renn Faire costume pins!

        But yes, this is horrifying.

    2. NickelandDime*

      So what happens when you no longer work there? You may not be able to access LinkedIn, etc…Did they say why they are doing this?

      2. Brett*

        Sounds like it is mostly to prepare for sunshine law compliance, but also to prevent employees representing our employer (especially the chief executive) without authorization.
        The policy is not done yet, so I have not seen what will happen when employees leave. I assume those employees will have to have IT change the email address on their accounts after they leave and then reset their passwords; or maybe have IT reset their passwords for them and give them a temp password.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      WTF? What’s the reasoning?

      Am I remembering correctly that you work in a highly regulated government office with really restrictive regulations on other things? Is this somehow linked?

      I’d just say you don’t have Facebook, Twitter, etc. and then make sure they’re not findable.

      1. Brett*

        Archiving for sunshine law is a huge part of the motivation. They are expecting new rules to come down from the attorney general that are going to requiring archiving every social media contact between employees and the public.

        I suspect the other reason is to make sure that any employee who generates social media content is tightly managed; and make sure that no one other than IT is in possession of any passwords that could lead to an account that leads to official channels.

        For some channels where you can have multiple profiles, like Pinterest and Twitter, this will not be so bad. For other channels where you can only have one account and that links to other business accounts, like LinkedIn, Facebook, Google+, and YouTube, it creates a nightmare where you no longer have password access to your personal account.

        3. fposte*

          I think your work uses “governmental” as an excuse for crazy. You are, if I recall, a mid-sized Midwestern state, not someplace guarding launch codes; I also work for the government in a mid-sized Midwestern states and we don’t have to deal with any of the crap you do.

          1. Brett*

            Looks like we have no legislation on this in our state, just three bills that died in committee.

            1. Lucky*

              Well, check the T&Cs for the various social media sites then. LinkedIn is pretty clear: you can only have one account, your account belongs to you, and you agree not to transfer any part of your account. Also, you (or your employer as user) agree not to “use or attempt to use another’s account.”

              https://www.linkedin.com/legal/user-agreement

          2. Ad Astra*

            Oh yeah, good point. Just because the law allows it doesn’t mean the folks at LinkedIn and Facebook allow it.

        5. Cristina in England*

          I’m pretty sure this is VERY much against the TOS of these sites, it would be worth pointing that out as part of a group push-back. As someone pointed out downthread, wouldn’t this also constitute a potentially legally tricky prevention of you finding other work (if they are blocking LinkedIn stuff)?

          1. Elysian*

            Yeah, not only are the TOS a concern, but I would think that if you’re a government employee this would create giant First Amendment Free Speech and Free Association problems. Like, crazy huge probably unconstitutional ones. Do you have a union?

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Yeah, I was thinking freedom of speech, also. If they have the passwords they can post anything they want and make it seem like it came from you. Going to the union is a good idea. I was thinking of the attorney general or the ACLU, too.

              I’d find ways to fight this one, even if I had to stay under the radar, I’d fight it. It sets a dangerous precedent.

        6. Sunshine Brite*

          They really don’t need to know when I do a workout, how many cat videos I watch, and how often I end up live tweeting along with one of the shows I watch (The Profit!). No one really does but it’s just supposed to be fun. Why do employers always have to kill fun?

        8. Shannon*

          I would consider it an investment to pay for a consult with a lawyer regarding this.

    4. kozinskey*

      Well that’s horrifying. Are employees allowed to have separate social media accounts for work and personal purposes? Whether it’s allowed or not, I would be tempted to start a fresh account (with a different name) and leave the work-controlled accounts to slowly fade away.

      1. Brett*

        I _think_ they can, but certain networks do not allow this. LinkedIn and Facebook will be the big ones, since both networks ban having more than one account and actively enforce it.

      2. Blonde Lawyer*

        There are some very public positions where everything you do even “off duty” is still considered as done in your official capacity. Namely, judges. Even “liking” a story could end up being a conflict of interest. In the past, most of them just stayed off social media but now as younger attorneys who already had a social media presence are becoming judges it is now more of a problem. I’m not saying that is what Brett is dealing with but I have heard about it being an issue in my state’s bar.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think that telling them to stay off of it is not as bad as telling them to hand over their passwords.

    5. I'm a Little Teapot*

      Wow. That is utterly horrifying and shouldn’t be legal, no matter *what* your job is. (And in some states it’s not – there are some states that ban employers from requiring employees’ social media passwords.)

      They’re basically stealing your entire Internet presence.

    6. steve g*

      Hell no! I’m noticing jobs (usually through jobvite) that have a link to put your linkedin AND facebook pages there. Now why the heck does a potential employer need to look at the page I used to use to watch funny videos of my niece when she was a baby and keep track of my relatives in general?!?! Besides the privacy breach, irrelevance, don’t employers realize that many people aren’t into social media??? I don’t think I’m ever gonna get into it. I may write what I want here, but I don’t want to broadcast all of my issues to distant relatives, former coworkers, and people from HS!

      1. Ad Astra*

        I assume the companies are interested in your Facebook “presence,” like the fascinating articles and insightful opinions your share with your “following.” A lot of journalists and marketers use Facebook to curate content and promote their stuff and create a professional image. But then, a lot of them don’t.

    8. Brett*

      I did strongly express my objections to this policy, since it is not final yet.

      I think ultimately it will just be employees connected to official social media who have to follow this policy. If this includes content generators, though, then this is a huge number of people, most of whom are essentially volunteers doing content generation outside their normal duties. I expect nearly all of these people to “quit” those aspects of their jobs with the support of their managers. Just in our department, we have one official social media manager but about 30 people managing and generating content in some way. That social media manager is probably going to find herself on call 24/7 and spending huge amounts of time generating content instead of curating.

      1. zora*

        The problem here is just an inability to adjust to a new function of technology. The aggregate effect of the internet (and some would say, it’s purpose) is to open up communication and the sharing of information. Any government just literally will never have the ability to actually control every byte of information and communication on it. It is literally impossible, by virtue of it’s design. And therefore they are going to waste a LOT of taxpayer resources trying to for absolutely no reason. This is completely out of step with the actual spirit of sunshine laws and government transparency. And besides people who really want to do illegal and unethical things and avoid scrutiny are always going to find a way to do that. Ugh, i have so much to say about this and how this is an example of the exactly wrong way to run a democratic government/society. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

        1. LCL*

          The actual spirit of sunshine laws? In my state, the effect of sunshine laws is basically welfare for anybody with a little bit of legal education that is willing to work the system, and added bonus of harassment of public employees.
          I do comply with the law, but I think sunshine laws are a bunch of crap. Basically a hammer to hit government employees with.

          1. zora*

            Yes, I mean the original spirit of sunshine laws which was to increase transparency to prevent backroom dealing and corruption. But yes, in most cases where they have actually been implemented, people with terrible intentions have twisted the concept for their own anti-government ulterior motives and they are horrible.

    9. Muriel Heslop*

      That’s horrible! I am our social media manager and handle all of our accounts – I cannot imagine how that would work!

    10. Jerzy*

      By taking over your LinkedIn accounts in this way, they are cutting off a legitimate opportunity for you to find new employment if you chose to seek it, and that’s messed up.

      I can understand being concerned about how employees may represent your organization on social media, and a lot of people have made a lot of mistakes in that regard, but I think this is crossing a line. If you want to track what your employees do online, follow them on their social media accounts. If your employer thinks it can cut off employees who are behaving poorly online from their accounts as punishment, then employees are just going to start to make shadow accounts.

      Bottom line, this is ridiculous, and you employers need to be told that.

    11. The Strand*

      No, no, no.

      My last job, they wanted me to have a Facebook account. So I created a second one. I maintained my personal one and they were none the wiser. One of my friends uses the last name “Fill in the Blank”

      It’s one thing if they’re talking about the official social media channels, quite another in cases like LinkedIn and your personal accounts for the like.

      Create the kind of profile they want for your work email address and create/keep one that you maintain control over. Use a nickname, keep your last name removed entirely, whatever.

    12. Gene*

      The question I would have to have an answer to in writing before they got access to my accounts is, “What is the policy to get my account back when I quit over this bullshit?”

    13. Elizabeth West*

      To quote Will Smith, oh HELL no.

      What I do on my own time is my business, and I maintain an Internet presence related to my writing. So my blogs, Twitter, and Tumblr would be under THEIR control? F*ck no.

      Facebook is how I keep in touch with far-flung friends and family, and I have a Pinterest but rarely use it. But those are still MY PERSONAL accounts. I’m not sharing that with my job. I don’t even friend coworkers!!! I’d be job-hunting so fast it would make their heads spin.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Oh my gawd, I’m hyperventilating at just the thought of my coworkers looking at my Tumblr. NOPE.

    14. ginger ale for all*

      If it is the account that you are using AS AN EMPLOYEE representing the company, I would just raise my eyebrows and see how that goes.

      But if it is YOUR PERSONAL ACCOUNT, NO NO NO . And I would be very interested in hearing a lawyers opinion as to whether or not that is legal. I think it isn’t legal but I am not a lawyer.

    16. EmmBee*

      Yeah, they’re violating the terms of service for each of those platforms.

      I sort of see where they’re going with staff who work on the company’s social media accounts (I’m a VP of social media for a big brand). It’s weird, but I sort of see it. But it makes zero sense for the rest of the employees.

      How do your colleagues/peers feel about this?

      Honestly — if you work at a relatively big company, you should send an anonymous tip to someplace like Gawker. They’d love this story.

    17. I'm Not Phyllis*

      That’s a big fat “no” from me. I’d rather not be on social media at all if it came down to it, then have to link everything to work. I try to keep my work and personal lives very, very separate and I would not be a fan of this at all.

    18. Charlotte Lucas*

      So, when are they requesting the keys to your houses to look through your medicine cabinets and underwear drawers?

      I think that this is probably against all the terms of service for most SM accounts, and I’d try to contact the companies to let them know about it. Also, I’d delete my SM accounts.

    19. TheLazyB*

      Wow that is so completely awful I can’t even.

      I would rather not have any social media than let my work have the password.

    20. zora*

      This is so completely crazytownbananapants that I don’t know how they have room for anything else in those pants with all the bananas that are in there.

      I would just lock down all my accounts as completely private and be like, that’s it, you can’t even see my accounts, so they are none of your business, so tough patooties. What is wrong with people??!?! And how do they have jobs when I can’t find one? ;oP

    21. Artemesia*

      This is the kind of abusive behavior that gets unnecessarily picky legislation created. This is so out of line. They are trying to essentially cripple your career development. How on earth is my facebook any business of the job? Surely they could have a policy about misrepresenting or embarrassing the workplace without going this far.

    22. Oh Anon*

      Excuse my language, but F*$% THAT! I would just say I didn’t have any social media accounts.

  14. Malissa*

    Interesting week. Not one but two opportunities came back around. Both are positions I had applied for last year. One was very nice and informative all the way through the process and even gave me a very nice rejection. I touched bases with the hiring manager and reapplied. I have an interview for the same position on Monday.
    The other one was one of the most bizarre interviews I’ve ever had. At the time they had no idea what they wanted. No idea what the position they were creating was going to do. And they asked me no less than 5 times if I was a military spouse. Never heard a word from them after the interview. They pulled my resume and called me to see if I might still be interested. But they have yet to set up an interview.
    So I’m hoping things go good on Monday, because at this point I’m not sure if I even want to revisit the second place.

    1. The Strand*

      They asked you 5 times if you were a military spouse?

      That’s not a good sign. First off, it’s a EEOC question (http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/inquiries_marital_status.cfm), because technically they are using your marital status (including who you are married to) against you. Unfortunately, the USERRA labor law, which has even greater teeth, doesn’t cover spouses, just veterans.

      Without knowing the rest of the background, I’d assume they were really saying, “We aren’t sure if we want to hire you, because we suspect you’ll leave the minute your spouse gets transferred.”

      If they “double-checked” once in the interview your status, that’s one thing, but asking you five times says to me they didn’t believe your answer the first four times. That indicates a lack of trust in you as an applicant when you’ve been honest with them. Bad news.

      As a former military spouse I think these kind of people are not the kind of people I’d want to work with anyway. Whether someone discriminates against military family members, while waving the flag and announcing their support of veterans, or more directly expresses stereotypical views of people in and associated with the military doesn’t matter. At the end of the day discriminating against family members is as unpatriotic and crummy as discriminating against anyone else.

      1. Melissa*

        Well, they might not have been using it against her – there’s a chance they may have been asking it in her favor. Many companies use military spouse status as a point in your favor. (Former military spouse here too!)

        1. Malissa*

          No, they seemed a bit concerned about how many times I’ve moved. Even though there were 10 years between each move.

  15. Bekx*

    Guys my mom is feeling really discouraged. She got her degree in special education/intervention specialist in 2011. She had a brain injury as a child, and can really connect to kids. You can’t tell she has a brain injury now, but it does take her longer to process things and she has major anxiety and low self-esteem after bullying.

    She’s substituted full time for a year and a half now, and she was in a really rough school. They had to call security on the students often, and when I tell people where she subbed, I always got raised eyebrows. She liked the kids, and her fellow teachers. She applied for a permanent position and the HR manager told her they liked her, but overall she was too nice for the job.

    It’s destroyed her confidence. She keeps saying “Well, I wasn’t meant to be a teacher I guess….” and “I’m too nice apparently…no one will hire me.”

    Is there anything I can do or say that can help her with this? It breaks my heart because she wants to help her kids. She’s not the type to sit on her phone and think ‘Well, these kids are too stupid to learn!’ because she strongly believes they can.

    Is being nice not a good skill for a teacher? Was it just that school district? She’s nearing 60, and feels like that’s a huge obstacle as well. She worked so hard for this degree only to feel like a failure.

    1. teacher's daughter too*

      Can she continue subbing but in another district/school? Subbing was how my mom got back into teaching after more than a decade off. She developed good relationships and then when a maternity leave came up, she got that, and then when a teacher left, she got the job temporarily and then permanently.

      I think the “too nice” comment is weird–did they mean that she doesn’t know how to keep order in the classroom effectively? Does she have a mentor from her degree program who could talk it through with her? I don’t think being nice is a problem in and of itself–it should be an asset!

      So sorry she is having trouble–best of luck!

    2. Academic Librarian*

      “too nice” is a euphemism for “does not have classroom management skills” If the students are not listening, following directions, focussing on their work, completing their work, or spending classroom or one-on-one time goofing off, the teacher is not teaching and therefore not meeting her expectations. There is help and advice for that issue in multiple articles, blogs and journals. There may be other circumstances where her degree and aptitude are a fit- after school tutoring centers etc.

    3. fposte*

      Oh, that’s frustrating for her, and discouraging for both of you; I’m sorry. “Too nice” may be the education way of saying “Not firm enough” (or at least “Not firm enough for this school”). But I think this sounds like counseling territory for her–she’s taking this setback really hard, and you say she’s got anxiety issues in general. There’s only so much help a daughter can give there.

      Somebody in education might have more information about what kind of help is available to an aspiring credentialed teacher, especially in special ed. But it could be that it’s a tough market, and in a tough market surviving the search is part of the necessary skill.

    4. SambaQueen*

      As a teacher, I’d say being “too nice” is often what gets said when someone is a decent, kind person but lacks the ability to discipline and manage difficult classes/students effectively, leading to disruption in the classroom and a poor learning environment. Obviously I’ve no idea if that is even remotely the case with your mom, but that’s been my experience of that particular euphemism in a school context. Certainly given what you say about the challenges of that particular district, it is possible that she simply wasn’t strict or tough enough on the discipline aspect, or that her approach was at odds with the school administration’s preferred approach. Does she specifically want to work in that sort of challenging environment? Is there any chance she could substitute in an easier district, or work with smaller groups of kids in a specialised unit, or in some other setting where the discipline and classroom management aspects might be less demanding, to rebuild her confidence and show what she can achieve with the students? I’m in the UK so I’m not that familiar with how special education where she is would be organised. Also, here a new teacher would have a probationary year placement in a school to complete their training and be supported through their first year in a full time teaching position, but it doesn’t seem like that’s a thing in the US? Does she have a mentor in the professions who could offer advice and support? Has she been observed teaching by other more experienced teachers and received feedback? How did that go?

    5. Brett*

      > Is being nice not a good skill for a teacher? Was it just that school district? She’s nearing 60, and feels like that’s a huge obstacle as well. She worked so hard for this degree only to feel like a failure.

      Unfortunately, age probably is an obstacle. At age 60, the district might be looking at her as a short-timer. With the way teacher contracts work, it is absurdly easy for a public school to illegally discriminate.
      When my wife left public school teaching, she not only found multiple teaching opportunities outside public schools, but eventually found a position with comparable pay and benefits. Your mother might want to look into some of the special ed specialist opportunities out there that involve 1:1 or close to 1:1 services, not just through public schools but also quasi-public and private tutoring/therapy services.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree that this could be more about age than anything. I think looking around at not-for-profits is an excellent idea. Somebody, somewhere will hire her. There is a huge need out there. Tell her to hang tough and look at a variety of employers, not just schools. There is no doubt in my mind that she will find something.

    6. Muriel Heslop*

      I’ve been in public education for 20 years, and “too nice” is definitely code for “lacks classroom management.” In special ed “too nice” can also mean “overempathizes” as those teachers are often working with students who need a totally different benchmark than typical academic standards. At a school like the one you describe, classroom management skills are critical and far beyond most people, even credentialed teachers. It’s also harder to develop those skills when you are a sub without your own classroom and limited authority. Has your mom thought about a private school, special needs school, a preschool, a CDC or a early childhood program. She sounds like a kind and caring woman and we definitely need those in education!

      Please encourage her to stay with it and try subbing at a lot of different schools as well as other types of teaching like tutoring, literacy support, or perhaps even a parent specialist? We need people who are committed to our kids (and please give her a hug from me!)

      1. Bekx*

        I’m trying to get her to teach in a charter school, she doesn’t seem to keen on that. I know she doesn’t like teaching for Kindergartners but likes her 2nd and 3rd graders.

        1. Muriel Heslop*

          It’s a brutal market for teachers right now. And elementary ed is glutted. If she can get a foot in the door with a job (charter schools ARE schools) that would be great! I know a lot of people who have been searching for a long time for a permanent teaching job in a school with which they are happy.

          PSA: There is not a teacher shortage. With the deregulation and privatization of teacher certification, there are fare more teachers than jobs almost without exception.

          I taught special ed – it’s definitely not for the faint of heart – and I wish your mom the best! If she made it a year in a challenging school and still wants to teach, she needs to keep trying! We need people who won’t give up on our kids!

    7. Mimmy*

      I’d say it was because of being in a “rough” school. When you’re dealing with that population, being tough but fair is probably the preferred trait. I know I wouldn’t survive in a school like that because I just wouldn’t have the backbone to push back on kids if they can’t get their work done or they do poorly on a test or assignment.

      But your mom’s district didn’t handle that well. They should’ve been more clear about the reasons for not bringing her on permanently. “Too nice” is just not specific enough. If it hasn’t been too long, could she go back to HR and get more feedback? She may not get it because of fear of a lawsuit (not saying your mom would sue them, just in general), but I don’t think it hurts to try.

      Others in the education field may have better advice, but my one suggestion for your mom is to not give up on her goals. Special education teachers are in high demand – it’ll probably just be a matter of finding the right fit. I also have anxiety and slowed processing (the latter due to a congenital condition), so I know first-hand the importance of fit.

      Just one caveat – and I say this with genuine concern – she is right to be worried about her age. It’s not impossible, don’t get me wrong, but age discrimination does exist. Has she reached out to the school where she got her degree in 2011? Or even talking with other alumni who earned their degrees at a later age?

      I hope everything works out for her!

      1. Mimmy*

        Just read everyone else’s comments – yeah, you can ignore mine ;) Though I stand by my suggestion to talk with other alumni (last paragraph).

        Give your mom a hug for me too!!

    8. MaryMary*

      I’d suggest that your mom ask the HR manager for specific areas in which she could improve, and then reach out to the principal or one of the veteran teachers for advice on specific actions to take. It’s crappy to give someone vague feedback like “you’re too nice.” Your mom has every right to ask for additional information, and it should reflect well on her that she wants to improve.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      Her classroom management skills may be okay but not for that school in particular. You mentioned that it’s really rough–she probably would have to be more hard-line to keep order than she is comfortable with.

      Has she looked at teaching opportunities in other settings? Still with kids? I think someone below mentioned tutoring centers. Any other ideas?

    10. Bekx*

      Thanks everyone. You all pretty much hit it on the head. She says classroom management isn’t her strong point and she is much better in small group learning than in large group learning. Usually with her focus kids are taken one on one, but most of her sub jobs weren’t just special education. I’m trying to encourage her to go into other school districts, but my parents are in some financial droughts right now and all she can focus on is how much the school district pays for subbing.

      Counseling…..I’ve brought it up….but she gets very offended when I do. She went to counseling as a child so I think she thinks it’s something that she doesn’t need anymore. That’s another subject. She also blames her heart medication on her anxiety.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, how sad and frustrating. So she can’t look outside a small area, can only work in a pretty specialized setting, and won’t go to counseling. There’s not a lot of room for potential there, unfortunately.

        I don’t think this is something you can fix. And maybe some of this is just because you know she’s upset right now, but is it possible you get asked to do a fair bit of emotional management for your mom? You sounded protective in a way that seemed unusual to be for a healthy and competent parent.

        1. Bekx*

          Maybe. I’m very protective of her. Like I said, she had a brain injury and was teased as a child. Her sister’s still kind of bully her in a way. Her coworkers (she works in a grocery store for her health insurance) bully her. Her brain injury means she can’t do things like write on cakes (the nerve ending damage makes her hands shaky) and the younger employees are very mean to her. Tell her to just practice and that she’s stupid. Her manager is incompetent. I’ve been trying very, very, hard to get her to leave but she needs to take things in little steps.

          I know from that paragraph it probably sounds like she has a lot of issues. But she is so strong. She’s survived the brain injury (coma for 6 weeks), breast cancer, and congestive heart failure. It’s a LOT to put on someone. Her cancer came right when she went back to school, and was a major set back. Her CHF came right when she was about to graduate. I do think the heart medication is causing a lot of her anxiety, and she’s spoken to her doctor about it….but she’s afraid that if she goes to counseling she’ll get put on an anti-anxiety medication and she doesn’t want that.

          I don’t think she’d refuse counseling if my dad really sat her down and told her about it. I think she thinks I’m insulting her when I suggest it. But also she’s working 6 or 7 days a week, has meh insurance, and is afraid of becoming like her sisters who are basically drugged out shells of their former selves from anxiety medications. Honestly, I’m probably going to share this with her, and I think me typing this out will make her think. Money is very tight, and that is probably her primary concern next to the others I stated.

          1. ElCee*

            You really love your mom. It comes through so much. Best of luck to her and you as well.

            1. Bekx*

              Oh jeez. Someone just started cutting onions in here. Thanks. I’m a brat to her, but I do. :)

          2. fposte*

            You’re a good daughter, Bekx. Clearly she did very well at the job of being a parent.

          3. Panda Bandit*

            Nobody can force her to go on anxiety medication. Her therapist may suggest it but this is 100% your mom’s choice. For the money problem she can do a search for low cost or sliding scale therapy in her city. If there are universities nearby that offer pysch majors they’ll usually offer sessions with a graduate student for a very small fee.

            My vote is for suggesting therapy to her in a very nice way. I’m doing talk therapy only and I’ve had fantastic results: greatly reduced anxiety and much higher self esteem.

            1. OfficePrincess*

              And even if her therapist does suggest medication, it doesn’t have to leave her drugged out. Most doctors will start a patient on the lowest dose possible and work up, so taking something to take the edge off while everything else gets straightened out may give her the mental resources to consider her options and make a plan.

              1. Panda Bandit*

                True. If she goes on medication the dosage can always be adjusted or she can switch to a different kind.

          4. AnonAcademic*

            Her being turned down for being “too nice” combined with her being bullied by both her sister and her co-workers suggests to me that there are maybe bigger issues at play here with assertiveness and setting boundaries. My sympathies. I have a relative with a similar situation (also a teacher) except she has a chip on her shoulder about being misdiagnosed as intellectually disabled as a child, and her response is to BE a bully. It has the same net effect in that she doesn’t work effectively with others which limited her career. Her solution was to work for under market salary at a private after school program she was allowed to design and run herself. That worked for a while, until….she had some sort of conflict with the organization it was run under and decided to retire.

            These sorts of personality issues can be really difficult and frustrating to watch and the best answer is usually therapy, which is also the option people resist the most.

            I don’t know where you are located but if you’re in an area with medical marijuana access, it’s a treatment alternative to sedatives for anxiety. High CBD strains (which can be taken as a pill) don’t have the mental effect of feeling “high” or the drowsiness of benzodiazepenes, but do seem to reduce anxiety.

          5. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

            Bekx, I know I’m extremely late to this party, but please make sure your mom knows that “counseling” definitely does NOT mean “automatic medication.” If she goes to a therapist and says “I’m struggling with anxiety and need help developing coping mechanisms that are not medication,” a good therapist should be able to work with her on that, and at least TRY to treat her without medication for a period of time. Also, most therapists are licensed psychologists or social workers – they can’t prescribe medication even if they wanted to! So if that’s what’s holding her back, maybe knowing that it doesn’t work the way she seems to think it does would help?

          6. Pacific Blue Forest Green*

            Wow … a teacher myself, the profession IS brutal these days, Special Ed in particular. With all of the issues your mother has endured, and accomplished, she deserves major kudos for doing what almost no administrator or board member would ever dare to do in the classroom.

            Counseling may be helpful for some of the issues, and it may be wise to at least consider medication for a very brief time, if necessary. However, she is also wise not to want to explore the latter option, as other methods can prove to be beneficial.

            Yes, hugs to her – and, no, don’t give up on teaching just yet. Best wishes to her!

    11. Jenna Maroney*

      I don’t know if you’re still checking replies but your mom’s situation really tugged at my heart so I wanted to offer some things for you/your mom to consider!

      1. Some schools are in fact rougher than others, and what might not work there could be exactly what some other schools are looking for!

      2. When I started working with kids I often came across to other adults as “too nice,” but improving my classroom management skills didn’t require abandoning any of my niceness and in fact I became most successful when I started consciously implementing techniques I learned in a way that was true to who I was – I was a failure at trying to be “strict” or administer “tough love,” but “firm and kind and VERY deliberate” has been a winning combo. So, “too nice” is not a death knell for someone who teaches or otherwise works with kids. Furthermore, at this point I would not want to work somewhere that made a practice of insisting teachers not be “too nice”; schools are like other workplaces in that fit is key. I have been most successful in roles where my colleagues held similar approaches to mine, and less where I was a round peg in a place that trained students to be square holes.

      3. First year teaching is hard for EVERYONE and almost no teacher who’s stuck around would look back and think she was great when she started out. Most wouldn’t even say they were good until their second year or later. Substituting is especially hard because you don’t have a chance to build constructive relationships with kids, and also kids love to act up for a substitute; I was the biggest goody-goody in the world as a kid and I had still absorbed the cultural expectation that subs were not to be respected.

      4. People’s suggestions of looking at different districts and private school options are good. I would also suggest your mom look at assistant teaching positions, especially at private schools if there are a bunch in your area. (It is unfortunately extremely late in the year to get hired, but for next year!) This is what I’m going to be doing as I work on my master’s degree, but a lot of them also hire people who are fully certified. It’s a way to get sustained classroom experience without having everything rest on your shoulders. I know it might seem like a downgrade when you’ve already been certified but honestly I think this should be a standard requirement of teacher prep.

      5. She can also look around for things like after school programs – I worked at one that hired certified teachers to lead the academic components of the day.

      6. A lot of ed schools just don’t prepare teachers enough for the classroom management part of the job. As I alluded to in #2, a lot of people are in a similar boat. I really hope she doesn’t let this be the end of her dream.

      6. I do think that the age thing might be a problem, but not a insurmountable one; people do become teachers as career-changers and special ed is a high needs field. IDK. Your mom sounds great and I think that in the right place, she could be a real asset; I hope she doesn’t stop looking.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        Oh, and if pay is a concern: I’ll be making about as much as an assistant teacher at a private school as I would be making if I were a first-year teacher with a bachelor’s in education (but no master’s) in public schools. My friend is going to be teaching middle school English at a private school and despite not having an education background will be making more than teachers with master’s degrees make in their first couple years in public schools here.

        1. Bekx*

          Thank you so much! I’m definitely going to share these comments with her. I think she’s just getting down from all the applying and no interviews. I bought her Alison’s book so here’s hoping!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Please add that teaching is one of those jobs where you are on stage. You are really putting yourself out there. The risks are higher because the bumps and snags are right out in the open- everyone sees. Yeah, it hurts even more in these situations. Point out to her all the different ways she is a gutzy lady. Then just encourage her to be a little more strategic about where she applies. Tell her that is what we all do- I don’t apply for jobs at big, huge, corporations because that would feel like drowning to me. I am sure other people here can give examples of places they do not apply because it’s just not a good fit for them. There is nothing wrong with that- it’s called knowing yourself. We should put ourselves in places where we will succeed.

  16. Dawn*

    How do I go about telling the CEO about all of the little things around the office that, if changed, would make a big difference?

    I am a business analyst at a small (25ish people) tech office. There’s a very flat management style and I “report” directly to the CEO but I have immense freedom in what projects I do and how I do them. There’s some stuff in the way the office runs that I think if it was tweaked a bit/standardized it would be a big morale boost as well as just make things work better (and keep in mind it’s less of a “the office is run this way” as it is “this is just the way it’s always been done”.) Things like: contractor invoices will always be paid X days from day of submission (right now it’s just whenever, up to a max of 30 days past invoice submission which is what’s on the contract), restock of office supplies will happen every X weeks (right now it’s just whenever we run out of enough stuff and the mailroom guy has time to go over to Staples to buy more), filling out timesheets online instead of on paper (everyone has to account for how many hours they work on what project every day since we’re a gov contractor- and you can’t use white out on the paper forms and they have to be filled in with pen). There’s about 10-15 of these little things that I really think would boost morale (not that it’s low, but it would make things more pleasant) and just help the office run smoother in general.

    I’ve only been here 4 months but the CEO has been really receptive to any ideas that I’ve thrown out about projects that I’m working on, so I think he’d at least welcome my input if nothing else. Anyone have any good ideas about how to bring this up? Informal email? Mention that I have some ideas at our next 1:1 meeting (which will be a month from now because the CEO is really busy)? Let it go?

    1. fposte*

      You’ve got a receptive boss and some reasonable suggestions. I’d be inclined to wait until the August meeting, but you could also email him and say you have some process suggestions, would he like them to wait until the August meeting or get them in email now?

    2. Hlyssande*

      I think I would mention that you had some ideas prior to the meeting and ask if the CEO would like you to bring them up? If that’s a yes, you could send an email with a brief overview ahead of time to they have an idea of what’s coming.

      I would suggest starting off with only one or two things because otherwise it will look pretty presumptuous.

      Then, when you’re talking about it, make sure you do the following.
      1. Explain the idea as clearly as possible without inundating the CEO with too much information. Writing an outline might help in that case.
      2. Explain why it would be useful/more efficient to the company, based on your observations.
      3. Provide examples and research – you want them to know that you’ve done your homework.
      4. Be aware that there may be existing processes that cannot be changed – or that what you’re trying to change could upset a delicate balance somewhere. It’s easy for a new person to try to bring in sweeping changes without understanding the big picture.

      Good luck!

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yes, write out an “executive summary” of each suggested change, which should include your case as to what needs to change, and how it would benefit the company (maybe estimated savings, even if you just give it your best guess). Then you should also have very specific suggestions as to how these changes could be implemented, such as mocking up ordering sheets or talked to the mailroom guy about having an email folder for “Office Supply Requests”, then once every week/month/etc., going through the existing requests and creating a bulk order, then moving those emails to a different folder.

    3. CLT*

      Are the changes you want to suggest within the scope of your job description? If they are not, I would suggest you let it go until you have been there much longer. Those decisions were made by someone, and you risk overstepping boundaries by questioning the decisions of others, especially at this early stage.

      Besides, you may end up looking like a real newb for suggesting changes that your coworkers have all suggested to deaf ears in the past, as surely if there are that many process problems, others have noticed and complained. It is not unusual for a new person to come in, impatient to make changes, and start making suggestions before they really understand how the culture operates. It can rub your coworkers the wrong way. You are kind of saying that, although you have only been there 4 months, you know better than they do how they should be doing things or that you see problems they were too blind to see.

      I suggest sticking to suggestions about things that are within your own job description until you have been there longer, then venture in with an idea or two, not a list.

      1. NicoleK*

        +1000. I’m working with someone right now who was throwing out suggestions on her first day. And her suggestions were absurd because she did not know the organization.

      2. Dawn*

        Yeah I have gone back and forth on whether to bring things up or not too. However, since I’m here as a business analyst one of the things within the scope of my position is internal business strategy- I’m already working on finding more contracts for us to go after and would be advising on hiring and expanding existing positions if new contracts were landed. I see some of the suggestions that I would make as being within the scope of internal business strategy advising.

        However, you’ve really made me pause and think about how to go about bringing up these ideas. I think that I could bring them up organically as time goes by instead of having a big long list- for example, suggesting the paying of invoices whenever the discussion of new positions comes up, and maybe just asking my boss about the paper timesheets next time I submit mine in a casual “hey why do we do these on paper? Is it for regulatory reasons?” I’m definitely NOT trying to throw out a bunch of suggestions just because I’m new, and that’s part of the reason I came to AAM to ask what to do- I don’t want to be seen as a “HI I’M NEW HERE YOU GUYS SUCK LET’S CHANGE EVERYTHING!”

        There’s other stuff that I want to advise on as well, so I’m going to think about how to do that in such a way that the company (the CEO and the President, basically) can reach its own conclusion about the best way to do things based on the advice that I give. At my last job I had insanely good rapporteur with my boss and my VP so I could throw stuff out willy-nilly instead of having to think critically about the delivery like I need to at this job.

        1. Kita*

          I’m a big fan of bringing them up organically. I’ve been able to suggest–and see implemented–a bunch of changes that would fall outside the scope of my job description. I think that was in part because I mentally noted things and then had opportunities in 1-on-1’s to mention some of them when they were relevant to something else.

          “Project X is going well, and I’m thinking we can mail it on Tuesday. Speaking of which, I noticed we run out of envelopes sporadically and thought one solution would by for Khaleesi to refill inventory weekly.”

        2. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

          I don’t want to be seen as a “HI I’M NEW HERE YOU GUYS SUCK LET’S CHANGE EVERYTHING!”

          It’s arguably a Good Thing that you are aware of this – it’s almost something of a ‘management trope’.

          I don’t know your exact situation, but if I had one piece of advice to offer you, it would be this: think very carefully about how any of your suggestions will change or affect the jobs of other people in your office. If one of your ideas causes problems for the mail-room clerk, you’ll get push-back from them (plus whoever else will back them).

          One – no, two – things:

          One, if you have been brought into this job explicitly as an “agent of change”, you’ll have an easier time of it. However, you’ll only have a certain amount of ‘political capital’ to burn before you start showing positive results.

          Two: in my experience in general, getting “change” accepted is usually handled by talking to lots of people, listening to them, and obtaining their buy-in. It’s a process that involves time and lots of meetings and phone calls. Ie, unlike in the movies, you don’t surprise everyone at The Big Annual Meeting with a list of ideas that saves the company. It’s more like, by the time the Big Meeting happens, everyone already knows most of what you’re going to talk about, and they’ve had time to think about how the change will affect them, etc.

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’d bring up in your next one to one, it sounds like you’ve got some good ideas.

      One thing to bear in minds is there’s a lot to be said for using your full credit terms, it helps cash flow no end if you pay at the end of the period, I’m not sure if I’ve misunderstood but there’s no reason to pay contractors earlier than the agreed date.

  17. "Computer Science"*

    I’m trying my best to embrace the weirdness in my office- among the group, my interactions with the Empath Without Boundaries stand out the most. Sadly, my methods of shutting down conversations haven’t been working: mentioning deadlines and schedules doesn’t phase them, and outright interruption asking us to carry on the conversation at a later date just leads to an Apple event’s worth of “Just one more thing.”
    Anyone have tips on shutting down conversations with endless talkers? Thanks, friends.

    1. fposte*

      Is this informally, or in meetings? If the latter, who’s running the meeting? Is this a boss or a co-worker?

      If it’s informally and it’s a co-worker, you just directly say what you want. “Sorry, Empath, you have to leave now–tons of work to do.” “Sorry, Empath, I need to know the answer to the spout question but can’t cover other topics now. What’s your answer?” And if “Just one more thing” happens, you can talk over her while saying “Sorry, you have to leave now.” If this is really work-interrupting, you should loop your manager in and say you’ve tried telling her to stop, it’s not happening, and it’s a problem–any suggestions?

    2. JMegan*

      Love your user name. :) Sounds to me like you’ve done more than enough to rid yourself of the endless talker, any reasonable person would have taken the hint ages ago. So clearly you’re not dealing with a reasonable person. I would try “What do you need me to do?” – force her into a specific action request if there is one, or at least to say so if there isn’t.

      If there is something you need to do, agree to do it and walk away. If there’s no action required on your part, then say “Okay, then I’ll talk to you later” and walk away. If she says “Just one more thing,” repeat “What do you need me to do?” one more time, and if still no answer, then walk away.

      If you’re not at your own desk, walking away is pretty easy. But if you are at your own desk, it can still be done – just get up and walk away! Go to the washroom, or into your boss’s office with a question, or whatever works for you. (Softer approach – walk her to the door as if you were showing her out of your home. Harder approach – “I need you to leave now so I can get back to work.”)

      You don’t have to listen to her, you know. It’s hard, because we generally want to be polite to other people, but remember she’s the one being impolite, not you. Good luck!

    3. ginger ale for all*

      I had a problem with a co-worker like that before and we were friends so this approach won’t work with everyone but I once stood up and placed my hands on her shoulders and physically turned her around and told her to leave. I had just told her twice that I didn’t have time before I did that though. Her needs to talk about her kids did not trump my deadline.

    4. it happens*

      All good advice above on how to deal with it in the moment.
      Might also be useful to ask the Empath to write down a list of items to cover with you and schedule a meeting.

      1. Dawn*

        I think this is a great idea! Some empaths have this serious “need to be heard” going on which would work well with saying something like “Hey Jane, I want to hear everything that you have to say and I want to be able to give you my full attention so let’s schedule a meeting to talk about this. How about you put together a list of what you want to talk about?” Jane feels like she’s being heard AND this gives you a really good push back for when she tries to talk to you- not only can you say “hey let’s bring this up at our meeting” you can also say “Jane I am unable to give you my full attention right now because of (thing) and I want to hear what you’re saying, let’s talk about this at our meeting”.

        1. JMegan*

          And make sure your meeting has a hard stop, lest you find yourself trapped in a room with her telling you “Just one more thing!”

          “Jane, I have another meeting in half an hour, so we’ll need to keep this brief. What are the three most important things we need to address? We’ll talk about those now, and then you can send me the rest by email.”

    5. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Same sex or opposite sex? I’ve resorted to using the restroom for brushing off Empath of the opposite sex.

    6. AnotherFed*

      Headphones. Seriously. It feels rude to interrupt to say you’re out of time to chat and try to end the conversation, but this person is actually being the ruder one who doesn’t understand boundaries. Do your normal attempt to end the conversation, smile, put your headphones on, and turn away from the person and back to work.

  18. nona*

    I’m realizing that I need to GTFO my job and field for various reasons (including low pay that will probably never improve).

    If you’ve been there, what helped you? Any advice? Books on finding a new career?

    1. Cristina in England*

      Well I don’t have any advice except to say that I have found, repeatedly, that if you don’t know what you want to do next, if you don’t know what you want the next step to be, it can be really hard to GTFO. Are you the kind of person who can leap into something just for the hell of it, for the experience? You’ll be better off. If you are very concerned with making the “right” move, you may never get anywhere.
      Spend some time thinking about what you’re good at and what type of environment suits you, rather than your “passion”. Look for good enough, not perfect!

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        +1

        Your next career step isn’t the End to All Career Steps. You can change it if it’s not right for you. :)

    2. YourOwnPersonalCheeses*

      Echoing Cristina, in that it’s good to focus on what you’re good at, and then come up with ways to like it. (I think I got that from Mike Rowe.) As far as books, I’ve started reading What Colour is Your Parachute. It seems to be pretty well-regarded!

    3. phillist*

      I’m going to go a little against the grain on this, because I’ve always found “figure out what you’re good at” overwhelming. I’m good at so many things! How do I pick just one!? What if the things I like are not easily combined–or if it’s not obvious how they can be blended?

      My advice is to start looking at orgs/companies you like and might want to work for, then look at the jobs available within those orgs. Which jobs would you (ideally) like? Which are you qualified for? How could you bridge that gap?

      Even if it isn’t feasible to get that precise job (like, you want to work for Apple but you can’t move away from Nebraska and aren’t looking for IT positions that could be done remotely), it might give you an idea of what kind of jobs you’d ideally like and find similar ones in other companies that might set you on a trajectory toward IdealJob.

      I’ve also found that being good at a job doesn’t necessarily meaning liking it. I learned the hard way that I can be great at a job, but working for a company I don’t like/disagree with ethically is a death knell for me. I switched industries to work for an org I truly believe in, took an entry level job (because I knew I would have to take a step backward title-wise due to switching industries) and excelled. 7 months later I was promoted into management at this new org and I could not be happier. I was always a good manager, and now I get to manage a team I love; work directly with Senior Leadership I admire; and feel like my work has purpose. Even on the very worst days, I can step back and say, “This is why I do what I do.”

      Your mileage may vary, obviously: some people value a mission, some people value the bottom line, some people value a collaborative culture, etc. But in my experience, aiming for the *place* that is going to be your best fit is just as important (more important, in my case) than trying to figure out which “career” suits you best. And often, it opens up possibilities you may never have considered: the skills you already have might be useful to the organization you’re shooting for, and might put you in a position to move into the work you ultimately want to do. Google needs HR generalists, and the ACLU needs accountants, you know?

      It’s not easy, and does take some long-term strategic planning, but it is possible! Good luck!

  19. Staff Meetings are Weird*

    Does anyone else rotate facilitation in their staff meetings?

    This is my first professional job out of college and it seems strange to me that everyone from the office manager to the receptionist has to share in this duty. Facilitation includes soliciting and setting agenda items such as trainings and guest speakers along with running the meeting and taking minutes. I’ve noticed that when people who are in lower-level roles run the meeting that the team is more disrespectful to them. Side conversations, note passing, etc. are issues at all meetings but when, say, the receptionist tries to get everyone’s attention to start the meeting, people just keep talking. For over a minute, despite the receptionists’ repeated calls for silence. Management, though present, does not intervene. (They do call out bad behavior when THEY are facilitating though. But that’s maybe once a year because of the number of staff we have.)

    I can see why there might be a benefit to having people gain experience in this position and most of the office shares some core duties, but it feels to me like management has come up with a creative way to delegate this responsibility to the staff.

    1. fposte*

      . . . and then failed to stand behind it, therefore undermining these people’s power rather than increasing it.

      Can you take the lead in modeling respectful behavior to meeting leaders generally and even do a little intervening? “Hang on, Bob, I need to hear what Jane is saying.”

      1. Staff Meetings are Weird*

        Nail, meet head.

        I do try to be respectful, but I also actively avoid sitting next to the worst offenders for obvious reasons! This sort of thing is a HUGE irritant for me, and I’m afraid that if I open my mouth I’ll go off on my coworkers, whom I do like and care about. My position in the office is very low, so I don’t really have any capital to spend.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, this may just be a “try not to hurt your teeth when you grind them” situation.

          1. Staff Meetings are Weird*

            But I might draw some comments if I wear a bite guard to the meeting…. Perhaps no one will object if I start shredding paper into tiny bits to stay sane?

    2. TCO*

      We rotate staff meeting facilitation among the entire department (both my larger and smaller departments do this, with varying levels of responsibility for prep/agenda creation). I’ve never witnessed the kind of disrespect you’re seeing. That’s pretty outrageous.

      1. Staff Meetings are Weird*

        So this IS a normal thing, then? I’d love to see a workplace where the meetings function respectfully. Sometimes I wonder (when it’s my turn) whether I’m actually building facilitation skills if I can’t get it under control.

        1. TCO*

          There are a lot of things about my workplace that aren’t entirely “normal” so I can’t claim this is a common practice. But our meetings always function respectfully. It’s hard to imagine anyone in my office openly disrespecting a lower-level person in a meeting. We are very intentional about having kind, respectful, and healthy interpersonal relationships here. I’m guessing your office’s meeting behaviors are reflective of deeper cultural issues around disrespect, status, or morale.

          1. Staff Meetings are Weird*

            I’m guessing your office’s meeting behaviors are reflective of deeper cultural issues around disrespect, status, or morale.

            Morale is a huge issue. Disrespect is not something I’ve thought about before, but now I can think of numerous examples of management disrespecting staff. Most notably the time the manager openly slammed several internal employees who had applied for a promotion in a staff meeting.

        2. zora*

          no that is weird. I have seen rotating facilitation among a team or department where people are mostly on the same level and all doing similar work. To have the receptionist facilitating a meeting with executives in it is just weird.

          Honestly, even having a meeting with all of those people in it together is weird. The one place where we had this were annual/semi-annual all-hands meetings but those were run more as presentation level from the program staff, keeping all staff up to date on what the organization’s impact was, so there were very specific people facilitating each section to keep it running smoothly and efficiently since you are using the time of every single person in the organization at once, and that is a lot of people/money.

          1. Staff Meetings are Weird*

            We don’t quite get up to the executive level (usually, maybe 1 – 2 times a year they visit our office–it’s a branch) but we have admin staff > professional staff > supervisors/program managers > branch manager > regional director (occasionally, he is CC’d on all agendas and minutes to stay in the loop)

            There’s a standing updates section for various programs and initiatives, but people are rarely prepared to present on their topics, despite the fact that it’s a weekly deal. We also have a high proportion of ramblers and people who think speaking makes them more important.

            1. zora*

              Well then the first thing that is Weird about this is Weekly Meetings Are Stupid And Almost Always Unnecessary. So now that you explain, I think that is the big picture of what is wrong here. No one in your org understands meetings and how to do them correctly. These meetings shouldnt even be happening, everyone knows which is why they are not preparing, talking too much, and being rude to facilitators. Unfortunately, there’s not much you can do at your level, I don’t think, but if I was in charge there I would eliminate this entire weekly meeting shit show immediately. I think you might have to just suck it up and eyeroll your way through like everyone else is. Sorry. :o(

              1. Staff Meetings are Weird*

                Please come organize a coup. Please? We have lots of food in the breakroom.

                1. zora*

                  Haha! Now that you said this I realize that running at SWAT-team style “Meeting Correction” squad that stages coups to eliminate and fix stupid meetings might actually be my dream job! ;o)

    3. edj3*

      I do. I’m having everyone on my team take a turn in facilitating our bi-weekly team meetings. They last an hour and the agenda is largely driven by questions or issues that the team has. This is a good way for everyone on the team to get facilitation and time management experience.

      I don’t think the issue is that the facilitator role is a round robin role–the issue is that the people on the team have terribly meeting manners. That’s a different management issue.

      2. Staff Meetings are Weird*

        Hmm. I wonder if there’s any training out there on meeting manners I could “slip” into the agenda. This has been getting worse for months now, so I’m losing faith that management will address the issue.

    4. Shannon*

      I’m admittedly passive aggressive and unprofessional, but, if I were one of the lower ranking facilitators, I’d put it on the addenda.

      1. Shannon*

        I’d also call out people being rude. “Wakeem, we’ll start when your conversation with Jane is done.” And then pointedly stare. “Jane, was there a topic you wanted to bring up?”

    6. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

      Wow. It sounds all egalitarian and stuff, but then when it’s actually practiced, it’s almost like it’s designed to reinforce the existing ‘dominance hierarchy’.

      Does the company make any resources available to people to help them when they take this role? (Mentors, classes, self-help books, hard drugs, etc?). Honestly, I’ve never heard of such a thing before, it seems like an idea that has literally crawled straight out of Hell.

      Do you have people freaking out as “its hour come round at last” they dread their turn as Chair?

      1. Staff Meetings are Weird*

        There’s at least 1 DVD on presentations floating around the office, perhaps a book or two. I’ve never seen or heard of anyone utilizing them. I do know several people have been told they are “bad at presenting/running meetings” but the remedy seems to consist of Toastmasters and being forced to present more often. There’s really no constructive feedback given beyond, “Hey, great presentation!” from someone as you pass in the hall.

        I’m not certain anyone looks forward to it… I haven’t heard joy or excitement expressed ever.

        1. zora*

          Everyone resents that they are wasting their time in these meetings. No amount of videos is going to help right now. The only solution is convincing management to stop these meetings. If they really feel departments need to be checking in and hearing what everyone else is doing, monthly is more than adequate. Quarterly is more reasonable.

  20. Windchime*

    I wrote a few weeks ago about a really nice guy on our team who just cannot seem to do the job. Nearly everything he creates has to be re-done or fixed. Yesterday, he was tasked with doing something very small and he goofed it up to the point that the QA guy was totally blocked all day long because the build was broken (we write ETL code). The QA guy and I spent most of our day trying to untangle the rat’s nest of incompetence.

    It’s really hard. He is such a nice man but my productivity is going downhill fast. Both my manager and his manager are aware of all that is going on but I think it’s tricky to actually let someone like this go because he is retirement age. I’m weirdly frustrated and compassionate at the same time.

      1. Windchime*

        They’ve looked into that and it doesn’t seem possible. It’s really strange to be vascillating between extreme irritation and extreme sorrow over this.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Can the company offer him early retirement? I feel bad for him. Of course, if he could improve but refuses to, then it’s kind of his own fault, but if it’s just difficult, then that’s unfortunate.

        1. Windchime*

          Ha, yep, at my old job “special projects” was the kiss of death. It was one step above Switchboard. Which was too bad because we had a handful of people who were professionals at working in Switchboard, but that’s where people who had washed out of Special Projects were sent, and then they were eventually let go when they couldn’t handle the pressure cooker of working switchboard.

    2. Shannon*

      Is this something that maybe some professional update training would help or is it just bad work?

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      There are really only a few ways out of this and since just a flat-out firing seems out of the question to you (I think it’s tricky to actually let someone like this go because he is retirement age), here is what I would consider:

      1. Can you change his responsibilities so that he is essentially responsible for nothing… or at least nothing critical? I hate to say it, but I’ve been in workplaces like that, where someone who contributes nothing or contributes negatively has to be kept around for some reason or another, so the management just has that person do some non-job.

      2. Can you actually give him an early retirement or some incentive to retire early?

      3. Is there a job (somewhere else, maybe) that you know he’d actually be good at, and you could honestly give an enthusiastic recommendation for him for and help facilitate? That would be a win-win-win.

      1. Windchime*

        3 is what I would really like to see happen. It doesn’t seem right for the company to continue to pay him what I assume is a six-figure salary to be non-productive. But he does have some skills and I would hope that they could find him something to do. I don’t think that firing is out of the question (and it’s not up to me anyway, because I’m not in management), but it seems unfair to fire someone who is retirement age and struggling.

        My guess is that, if they end up letting him go, he would probably try to go work at a nearby place where a couple other people who got laid off ended up going. It’s still sad, though. It makes me glad that I’m not a manager.

  21. Cruciatus*

    My interview for an administrative job at a university on Monday will require testing. I asked more specifically what on and was told “Excel and drafting an email.” I do use Excel but would like to brush up my skills before Monday. I use the same functions over and over and don’t really need to branch out much.
    1) Are there good websites that offer (free) Excel testing? (The sites I’ve found are usually lame and don’t require you to do anything but rather pick an answer from 4 choices–I found this really hard. I don’t know WHY but I do know HOW (to do it). I’m going to assume my testing will be showing not telling.
    2) In lieu of websites, what would you expect an admin at a university to know how to do in Excel? This isn’t a senior role or anything.
    3) What sorts of things have others had to do in Excel testing for a job?
    3) Drafting an email? Like, “Hello John, The report we discussed earlier is now complete. Please pick it up at my desk at a time convenient to you. Thank you, Cruciatus” Am I missing something?

    1. Formerly Known as The Office Admin, Now Full Time Job Huntress*

      I just did an Excel, Word, Spelling and Grammar testing for a hospital admin position, and what I thought I knew about Excel and Word was MUCH less than what I was tested on. It was a practical test, so it would ask to perform something and then move on to the next question, but about 25% of the Word test I was just like, “You can do this in Word???WHO KNEW?!”
      I passed the Excel and Word tests at 70% each.
      If you know HOW to do it, but not explain it, I think you’ll be ok! Good luck!

    2. Elkay*

      The test I had for email was along the lines of “Here’s our website/brochure, here’s an email enquiry, respond to the email enquiry”, so you might respond with “Dear John, Thank you for your email enquiring about our Chocolate Teapot degree. Our entry requirements are qualifications in chocolate tempering and teapot handling, you can find out more on our website [insert link]. You can come and visit the Chocolate Teapot department on 32nd August when we hold our annual open day. You will need to register your interest here. Kind Regards Cruciatus”

      Excel was given a spreadsheet of applicant data, sorting it and answering questions about the sort. They might want pivot tables and/or charts too.

    3. Rowan*

      Have you got an email address? I’m happy to email you some detail about this but I don’t want to give out too much info about my university’s Excel test in a public forum.

      1. Cruciatus*

        That would be awesome! Thank you! I created a dummy account at yahoo, cruciatus9876 at yahoo dot com.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      If the job ad didn’t specify any particular skills, then I’d bet they just want to make sure you know how to open and use the programs. Outlook will probably be about attaching a document and some formatting. Maybe setting up a signature, turning on the out of office notification, and using bullet points.
      Excel could be opening a file, save-as, re-sizing a cell, and if they are really going to push it- making a simple chart.
      It sounds like they just want to make sure you have the basic skills, you’d be surprised how many people lie about using excel and outlook.

    5. Sophiabrooks*

      You might want to make sure you can mail merge letters and address labels as well as use formulas. I was the only admin who knew how to mail merge for awhile- everyone else was doing bulk mails by re typing the list onto labels! The other two things I do as an AA in excel are updating budget spreadsheets and making charts for PowerPoint presentations. I do more, but it is not expected.

      1. Elkay*

        This kind of thing makes me die a little inside. Mail merge was one of the things I was taught at school 15 years ago, admin should be able to do it standing on their heads.

        1. Rowan*

          I just cannot get my head round it. I’m proficient with the software for every other facet of my job but there’s something about mail merge that confuses me every time! Luckily we have plenty of other people on the team who can manage it and there’s enough stuff I can do that they can’t that it’s not too embarrassing.

      2. TheLazyB*

        All our mailing lists were labels at my last job. and all the labels were different sizes. SO FRUSTRATING!!

    6. GOG11*

      There were some helpful tips on how to handle consulting outside sources during this sort of test a few weeks ago. I’ll put a link in the comment to follow. Frequently, I Google things while working in excel because I don’t have certain formulas memorized, even though I know how to use them. I don’t know whether the place you’re interviewing with would allow it or not, but I would love to be able to use Google if I were taking the test since that’s how I normally work. Not sure if that’s applicable to you, though.

      1. Meg Murry*

        The test that I took didn’t let us use google, but you were allowed to use the Microsoft Help files, which I used once or twice when I new what the command was called but not where the version of Excel I was using had hidden it.

      2. GOG11*

        I’m having a heck of a time finding it… I do have a tendency to hit “surprise me!” and I forget that I wasn’t just scrolling through. Does anyone else know what I’m talking about or am I just a bit off today? The conversation was about how to handle a candidate who may have cheated on a part of her accounting interview. It seemed as though the applicant got stuck on something, left to use the restroom (took her phone with her) and was able to complete the test pretty quickly when she got back. It was a pretty strong example of how not to use outside sources during an interview, but Alison’s and/or the readers’ advice about how to ask if you can use them was really good.

        2. Apollo Warbucks*

          It was in the open thread the other Friday someone posted asking of it was a deal breaker that someone used their phone in a test and wanted to see what opinion people had, about it.

        3. Random CPA*

          I posted the question here: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/06/open-thread-june-19-2015.html

          The skills assessment tested whether the person could prepare a bank rec, apply various functions in Excel to data sets, and draft an email communicating a customer issue. The issue I had was when one of the candidates had asked to use the restroom after taking 40 minutes to do the bank rec section, and took her phone with her (which I suspected she used to look up how to do the functions, and I found that deceptive). I had said in one of my responses that I would have been okay with the person using the resources if she had asked rather than being deceptive about it, because I’m pretty good in Excel, but there are some functions I don’t use all the time that I have to Google to remind myself how to use or consult an Excel guide I put together of functions and examples of how to use them.

          However, one person said I should be consistent and either allow or not allow resources and be up front about it. I decided to go that route and consistently not allow resources rather than making individual exceptions if someone did ask to be able to look them up. This is because during the interview we asked each candidate whether they knew how to use the functions, and if they said yes, that they used them frequently, we tested them on them to make sure they were being honest about their skill set. If they said no, we had them skip the functions they didn’t know how to use.

          Having a candidate who could do everything was ideal, but if we had to choose between a candidate who was honest/realistic in their assessment of their skills vs. one who said they had the skills but couldn’t perform, we’d choose the one whose assessment was more accurate. (We found a great candidate who could do everything in the assessment, made him an offer, which he accepted, but then he accepted a counteroffer from his employer… so now it’s back to the drawing board!)

      3. Kita*

        Agreed. The biggest barrier to being an Excel guru is knowing which phrases to google. I can do so much, but I’m always rusty on something and need to look up the precise formulas (vlookup, I’m thinking about you).

    7. Meg Murry*

      I had to take a test for Word and Excel and these were some of the things on it:
      Excel:
      An example budget sheet has rows with $ amounts.
      -Format the $ amount column to show a $ and all the decimal points lined up
      -Add a row, call it XYZ with amount of Y. Adjust the cell at the bottom of the sheet that sums up all the numbers in the column to include that cell.
      -Insert a column and have it add up 2 other columns.
      -Some other cell is supposed to add up a different column but it isn’t correct. Correct the formula
      -Format the page to print all on one page.
      -Make this cell yellow and that cell bold italics.
      -Add a footer to say [blah blah blah] and page numbers.
      -Save the file as [name] in [folder name]
      -Print the file to [this printer]
      Nothing super complicated. If you are using an older version of Excel, consider trying to go to a public library or similar to use a newer version (or vice versa if you are using the brand spanking newest version) – Microsoft likes to move things around just enough to be confusing – I still swear every time I sit down in front of my laptop because the menu items are all in slightly different places.

      As far as the email drafting goes, they probably want to make sure you can use general spelling and grammar and don’t write in all caps or all lowercase with no punctuation or text speak. So not – “yr report is done – u can pick it up anytime tmrw” – which I know seems ridiculous, but I’ve seen it.

      You’ll be fine.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Is it weird that I would be really excited to get this test!? All my interview tests have been really boring word/prioritisation stuff!

        1. Meg Murry*

          I rocked it with a 95% (that should have been a 100% because the way I did one of the tasks was actually more correct and produced the right answer but wasn’t the way it was expected to be gone about) and I was so proud. The company was otherwise a total PITA and their application process was horribly stupid, so I was surprised to find the Word and Excel tests to be relevant and well done. Especially since I had heard people going on and on about how hard and stupid they were – they weren’t hard, they were just beyond what a lot of people who “use Excel” but really only fill in a couple of numbers in someone else’s spreadsheet do.

    8. Ragnelle*

      Check your public library’s website. We give all cardholders free access to online software that has both learning modules and tests for lots of software, including Microsoft Office programs. Ours is called Learning Express Library, and you can access it from home with your library account. Your local library might have something similar.

      1. Cruciatus*

        I do have this program and am searching through it but I can’t seem to find anything relevant. I’ll keep looking since this would be great if it works.

        1. Cruciatus*

          Nope, pretty sure our library decided not to carry the part with any Microsoft products at all which is extremely frustrating. But if I want to get my CDL license I know where to go.

    9. Lily in NYC*

      I think it’s too late for you to do this, but what I would do is register with a recruiting agency that specializes in admins and then go in for the testing they give. They almost all give very similar tests so once you do one, you can go home and look up the answers to the questions you didn’t know. There will be questions on how to make a macro or maybe a pivot table, so teach yourself how to do them if you don’t know how. Also, they will ask about some of the less complicated formulas. You might get a typing test, so brush up. For emails, if you don’t use “rules”, figure those out too because it will likely be part of the test. I highly recommend googling “Excel testing for job interview” – you’ll see sample tests. Good luck!

    10. Jean*

      I’ve heard about lynda (d0t) com which is a training site for all sorts of software. You can sign up for memberships at various levels of service / program access / duration of membership / $$ cost. I wouldn’t cram in trying to become an Expert over the weekend, but this might offer some helpful hints.

      Have looked at the site, but never actually signed up myself b/c our family computer is in a high-traffic part of our home. This means I don’t get a lot of quiet time w/out interruptions when everyone is home. (Yes, I need to fix this!)

      My foggy memory recalls $25/month at one point, but I don’t recall what benefits this did or didn’t include. Price could have changed.
      Good luck!

  22. Formerly Known as The Office Admin, Now Full Time Job Huntress*

    And this concludes Week 6(7? I’ve lost track. It may be Week 8) of Job Hunting Post-Move for Husband’s Job.
    I’m frustrated, annoyed, hopeful, frustrated and hopeful. I know there are other job hunters out there with me, we can do this. Right? Someone tell me there is an end in sight….
    I’ve had interviews, so all hope isn’t lost, but why must HR teams take SO long to call/email/send telegram/carrier pigeon after an application has been referred? WHY.
    On the positive, I was told by someone, “Your resume is really solid and quite good, I’m not sure why the recruiter hasn’t called you yet…”

    **ALSO: Any other Kansas Citians/Midwesterners? Is this heatwave not ridiculous? I feel like I might melt every time I walk out the door. Last night, I said, “Oh it feels nice outside, not too hot!” Checked the weather… 88 degrees, heat index of 94. Yeah, it was really really nice outside

    2. steve g*

      I feel the same way. I’m keeping a spreadsheet of jobs I am applying to and have been seeing ads I applied to 2-3 months ago still getting reposted in multiple spots, and I’m beginning to think some of them aren’t “real” jobs. I am just putting down some as “rejected” on some jobs because it looks like no one has looked at my app in many logins (like jobvite). This is especially frustrating for those jobs that were very specifc to me (“seeking blue eyed 34yo male who likes music from the 80s, hiking, and insanity fitness who also cooks and has experience working in startups and loved excel and template building but also is good with customers and has account mgt experience.”) and I go “Omg I have to apply to this right now, I could have this job next week, it was made for me!” then I get a rejection or hear nothing. It ain’t easy out there.

      1. Formerly Known as The Office Admin, Now Full Time Job Huntress*

        I think some of these jobs aren’t real too! I mean, statstically, I can’t not hear from 85% of the jobs I apply to, right?
        Also, the 80’s is a polarizing music genre, you may want to leave that out… ;)
        Jokes.
        I also tell myself, THIS IS THE JOB I CAN START A WEEK FROM TOMORROW, YAY!!!!!!!!!!!

        1. Steve G*

          Certain companies (Moody’s, Travel Click) post the same ad for the same job every day or two. It really clogs up my searches! I am so sick of having to click through them. You don’t need to make a new ad and post it as if a job is new, every day, in order to find candidates. Believe me, candidates will find you

        2. Shannon*

          A while back, I posted a job listing on Craigslist for a part time clerical/ dispatch type job. I got about 250 resumes over the course of four days for one job opening. I would have loved to replied back to all of them, but, I just didn’t have the time to do so (I was starting up my own company, so I was the President, CEO, CFO, IT department, marketing, sales and HR all in one). I feel bad about that, but, I was not expecting that level of interest in that job. I think a lot of employers are in a similar position.

          1. zora*

            It takes 30 minutes to copy and paste and send out some simple “No Interest” emails. You could do it while watching Netflix after dinner. It’s just a habit to get into, I hope you think about it next time.

      1. Formerly Known as The Office Admin, Now Full Time Job Huntress*

        OH NO!!
        Our’s was broken about a week before this heat started and I live in constant fear it may go down again.
        Sending you AC Repairs ASAP hopes and dreams!

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      We have a ton of people out for about 6-8 weeks this summer and it has pushed back some of our response to applicants and interviewing. I hope that is the case for you and soon the calls are flooding in. Good luck!

    5. edj3*

      *waves from downtown KC*

      OMG the weather is AWFUL. I ran Monday morning at 5 AM and it was already 81 with a heat index of 90. At FIVE AM.

      1. Formerly Known as The Office Admin, Now Full Time Job Huntress*

        *waves*
        I find it being hot before the sun comes up insulting, don’t you?

    6. Elizabeth West*

      It’s only in the 90s–it’s not NEARLY as bad as it was a few years ago, when we had nearly a month straight of 100-degree weather. UGH. I still took my walks, because I had no other choice.

      1. Formerly Known as The Office Admin, Now Full Time Job Huntress*

        YES. Summer of 2012 was BRUTAL.
        I keep reminding myself this too, that it actually hasn’t gotten above 100(I don’t even think it’s gotten above 97?) it’s just the humidity from having SO much rain this summer.

        1. kozinskey*

          I learned on MPR the other day that it’s not the humidity that makes you feel gross and sticky, it’s the dewpoint. Thank you Paul Huttner!

        2. Elizabeth West*

          I’m glad it quit raining. My doors swelled up and getting in and out of the back of the house had me pulling and cursing. My cat just stared at me through the window while I was fighting with it, like, “What the hell are you doing? Why are you not coming out here to feed me? I can see you!” I thought at one point I would have to call in and tell my boss, “Well, I can’t get out of the house, so see you when the sun comes out!”

      2. edj3*

        It still makes me a bit crazy that the heat index is 105F. It was cooler in INDIA last week.

    7. Know It All Management Consultant*

      I may be weird, but after all of the rain, I’m actually enjoying this heat.

  23. ACA*

    Yesterday at work I had a wardrobe malfunction that resulted in me leaving for lunch in one outfit and coming back 35 minutes later in a completely new one. And no one in my office even noticed.

    1. Formerly Known as The Office Admin, Now Full Time Job Huntress*

      Hahaha! It could have been funnier if someone complimented you in the afternoon after you changed, “Oh that’s a lovely dress ACA!”

    2. Sospeso*

      Hah! Same! I spilled a full mug of coffee on a floaty white button-down top – no fixing that at work – and ran out to the nearest store on lunch to buy something, anything, I could wear without major raised eyebrows. The only thing in my size? A bright green T-shirt. An actual T-shirt. And no one even gave it a second glance. This makes me question the effort I spend getting ready in the morning.

      This reminds me of the bit on The Office where Stanley grabs Jim’s coffee mug instead of his own, without noticing that he’s drinking cold OJ instead of hot coffee. Naturally, there are tests to see what else he won’t notice.

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      Once I ripped out the seat of my pants at work. No joke. And there was literally no time to go home to change. I shuffled to the bathroom with my legs clenched together, stapler in hand, and did the best fix I could. No one noticed.

      1. GOG11*

        OMG NOOOO! Staples? How did that go? I’m so sorry for the skin in whatever area where the staples ended up being.

        1. Ann O'Nemity*

          Thankfully it was along the seam and I was able to staple in a way that didn’t end up rubbing against skin. Still, it caused some fabric to bunch in a way that wasn’t super attractive. Plus, I felt the need to significantly shorten my stride for the rest of the day so it didn’t pop open again.

          1. GOG11*

            I can imagine the hurried scurrying to the bathroom, stapler in hand, then having to take rigid little steps the rest of the day. It’s anecdotes like this that make me seriously consider keeping a full change of clothes at work.

      2. OfficePrincess*

        I’ve done the exact same thing, except that it was the inseam. What’s better is that I shuffled past 10 people on their lunch break to the bathroom and back with a stapler in had and no one batted an eye.

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Are you sure? Maybe a few people noticed, but figured that, if you changed in the middle of the day, it might have been for an embarrassing reason? I probably would notice it but not mention it to anyone but my closest co-workers (those I actually socialize with outside of work).

      1. MaryMary*

        This. I tripped on te 4th of July while walking my dad’s dog and really scraped up my hand because I was so concerned about hanging on the to leash (Scruffy is a runner). I was totally self conscious about it, but no one at work said a word. Finally, today somebody asked what happened, and it turned out several people had noticed my hand was messed up, but they were all too polite to bring it up.

      2. ACA*

        It’s possible! I personally pay enough attention to people’s clothing that I’d notice and ask, just to make sure I wasn’t going crazy.

        1. TheLazyB*

          Oh god when my co-worker had a different top on the other day i totally thought i was going crazy, but i’d rather think i was going crazy than potentially embarrass her.

          We’re both new and only met at the beginning of June. Give me another 6 months…. maybe i would ask. maybe.

      3. Shannon*

        This. When I was a young woman, I had an embarrassing female problem at work. Went home to change and thanked God that no one noticed or commented.

        1. ACA*

          Oh – in a pants change I probably wouldn’t comment, that’s true. But shirt/dress/entire outfit? Probably yes.

    6. Tagg*

      This is actually a documented phenomenon called “change blindness.” Basically, if you don’t /see/ a change happening, more often than not your brain will literally disregard it and more or less go “oh, it must have always been that way.” There have been lots of studies done on it, and it’s fascinating. Search for “change blindness” on YouTube and you should come up with some pretty awesome videos – people can change clothing, skin color, even /gender/ and most people won’t notice it at all.

        1. GOG11*

          I assume the change would have to be something you aren’t super familiar with. So, if there’s a random person in a store near you, unless you were actively paying attention to that person, they could swap out a man for a woman and you might not notice that it’s a different person. With coworkers, you’d probably have to keep things like gender static since you know them well enough to notice that drastic of a change, but you might not notice if there is a change in something that you’re not familiar with already (and things that we expect to change – like clothes, whether hair is up or down, etc.).

          2. Elizabeth West*

            Possibly. We did have a cleaner who was trying to transition who worked for the company that serviced one job I had, and she showed up one day looking different. Longer hair worn down, wearing makeup, etc. “Call me Amanda now.” Cool, whatever. I definitely noticed, though.

            Postscript: I saw her again months later after I left that job, in the paper–she had been arrested for bank robbery. I felt terrible for her–I knew she probably did it because she didn’t get paid much and had talked about how badly she wanted surgery. :(

    8. Anie*

      I’m always so loud about my wardrobe issues, lol. The last one involved a sweater. It was new (and so beautiful…) but 2 hours into the day I realized I was super allergic to the fabric. Of course, I realized in the middle of a meeting after scratching my arms so hard I started bleeding. Cue “WHY DOES EVERYTHING ON MY BODY HURT?! WHAT’S HAPPENING?!”

      My boss always insists I drop everything and shop for a replacement. Shoe giving me a blister? Hey, DSW is a block away. Oh, run in your tights? Macy’s is a block away! Forget your lunch/tampons/puppies? We’re in the middle of Boston and there’s hundred of places to chop at! Go!

      I try to be quick, but I remember once my boss showed up in a see-through shirt. She only went to find something else after the COO complained. Man, she was gone for at least 2 hours…

      2. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Man, I always forget to bring my puppies to work…there’s no good puppy replacement store nearby though.

    9. Ama*

      Hee, I work four blocks from my apartment and frequently go home for lunch. Wardrobe changes I have made that have gone unremarked upon:
      – Change of pants after spilling my lunch all over the first pair.
      – Kicking my shoes off when I came home for lunch and absent-mindedly putting on a different pair to leave.
      – Taking off an accessory (cardigan, belt) because I’d spent all morning fiddling with it.
      – Changing my jacket/coat and outwear to something completely different because of a drastic temperature change. (I happen to have very bright colored coats that many people in the office have commented on — but they never seem to notice if I change colors mid-day.)

      1. TheLazyB*

        I would never notice a change of shoes. Hell my line manager had TWO DIFFERENT SHOES on for an hour and I didn’t notice. But still, neither did she…….!

    10. TheLazyB*

      Now that’s weird, because a few weeks ago my co-worker had a completely different top on in the afternoon than the morning, and I didn’t say anything because maybe she’d spilled something all over herself and was embarrassed? I hope she wasn’t bothered because she thought I didn’t notice!

      1. ACA*

        I wasn’t bothered, exactly, just confused because I’d been expecting someone to comment (as I said above, I pay a lot of attention to other people’s clothing!).

    11. Camster*

      Too funny! My basic wardrobe colors are black tops, jeans (dark), black jeans and maybe the occasional purple top (I partially credit this to years of wearing a uniform all through my school years). If I changed anything, I doubt anyone would notice!

    12. AthenaC*

      Just for fun, I wore the same shirt every day for a couple months. (Yes, I washed it regularly.) Why, you say? I work in a department full of men who are very odd in what they notice / don’t notice. If I wear a skirt it’s “What’s wrong?” If I wear a wrist brace it’s “What happened?” If I completely change my hair color – nothing. And now I know – if I wear the same clothes for a couple months – also nothing.

      Now, there is a slight possibility that they were all whispering behind my back – “Gee, Athena hasn’t changed her shirt in …. how long now? That’s weird!” But I doubt it.

      1. Regina*

        I had a friend in college who wore the same outfit for two YEARS. He wasn’t broke or anything, he just wanted to.

        It was a big deal when he finally bought new clothes! He had to because his pants ripped.

          1. Regina*

            I like that idea! I’d probably get a few different but similar shirts to match the black pants, but that’s just me and I don’t see anything wrong with the way she’s doing it if that works for her.

            I cleaned out my closet extensively two years ago and it makes choosing clothing so much easier. I try to buy clothes that are easy to mix and match, and I don’t buy any new clothes that I can’t see myself wearing at least every other week. Fun “wildcard” pieces can be tempting, but I prefer to spend my money and limited closet space on fewer things that I’ll enjoy more often.

      2. AnotherFed*

        One of my coworkers with always wears the same thing to work. We tease him about it a little by claiming he’s a cartoon character, but if anyone else happens to wear something similar, we accuse them of stealing the outfit and leaving poor Coworker naked and locked in a supply cabinet.

        1. Sparkly Librarian*

          BAHAHAHA!

          At one of my temp jobs after college, the director wore the same outfit most days. For one Halloween, the entire office of 20 people dressed in khakis, black loafers, and white button-downs, and put BART tickets in their breast pockets so you could see the stripe through the fabric. The director didn’t notice the first 2 or 3 people, but after a few minutes of people greeting him he caught on. :)

      3. Ruffingit*

        Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry’s girlfriend wore the same dress to each date.

  24. Come On Eileen*

    When negotiating/making a case for a raise, do you ever have a backup request waiting if you’re turned down? I know when first negotiating salary with a company before being hired, a lot of folks successfully ask for other perks (extra week of vacation, etc) if they won’t budge on salary. Can you do the same thing when talking to your boss about a raise, or would that come across as out of step? Just curious what others have done — I’m going to talk with my boss about a raise next week and was thinking whether I should be keeping a secondary request in my back pocket if I get turned down.

    1. Applesauced*

      A few months ago I had a performance review and asked for a raise. I had two numbers with me – one “reach” number (about 5-10%) if my review was stellar and one “cost of living increase” (3-5%) number if it wasn’t. I also discussed professional development and if the company could pay for some exams and/or professional association fees.

      1. Applesauced*

        I had asked for extra vacation in lieu of extra pay when I first started and was told the company just does not do that. If yours does, it’s worth asking for.

  25. Gene*

    This is a question on the “I don’t respect my bosses because I have a fresh degree and they’re old ” post, https://www.askamanager.org/2015/07/i-dont-respect-my-managers-college-degrees-from-20-years-ago.html

    The letter writer was properly castigated, but would your comments (including AAM’s) have been any different of the question had been,” I don’t respect my bosses’ degrees because my degree is from MIT and theirs are from University of South Dakota “?

      1. Christy*

        This is going to sounds snarky and elitist and terrible, but a 3.25 from MIT is worth WAY more than a 4.0 from USD.

        1. NacSacJack*

          I actually have to say, it does sound like that. How do you know the USD 4.0 isnt just better than the 3.25 MIT? Just because an institution is private does not make it better than a public one. Going to a private institution grants its graduates more opportunities but only because the elitest only want to hire someone like themselves.

          1. Anonsie*

            I wouldn’t call it worth more but I would at least know the 3.5 was way harder to get at MIT than a 3.5 would normally let on just because I know people who went there and the competition is craaazyyy.

            That said, I went to a no-name school that was also fierce on grading, and my department in particular tended to be one of those “a C is average, a B is exceptional and no one is getting an A” type places, and it always burned my grits that someone seeing my B+ in organic chemistry would be unimpressed not knowing I was one of only two people who got higher than a C/D. So I wouldn’t say x grade at x school is “worth more” or necessarily more meaningful than another school, but I do have a hefty amount of respect for the amount of perseverance necessary to do ok at MIT.

          2. Christy*

            I have friends who went to MIT, and I’ve heard how vigorous it is. I won’t say that MIT is automatically better, or that a candidate is automatically better, but a candidate is likely better if they went to MIT than if they went to Random State U.

            1. Christy*

              (And I’m not talking about like Michigan or U Texas or elite state Us like that. I’m talking like random State U.)

            2. TL -*

              Eh. An engineer from MIT is likely to have received a better engineering education than someone from university of Florida but that doesn’t mean they’re a better fit for every engineering job, or that they developed the ability to apply their knowledge outside of a classroom setting, or that they know how to be a good employee. Statically, it means that they’re probably white, from at least an upper middle class background, and had an interest in STEM in a community that held plenty of opportunities for them to pursue it.

        2. Melissa*

          Disagree. I worked with undergrads at an elite private university on the level of MIT. There is rampant grade inflation at the top schools. I asked one of the professors I was assisting about it (who also happened to be the coordinator of undergraduate education in our department) and she told me point-blank that they do it because their competitors do it – they can’t have an average GPA of 3.25 if Harvard and Yale have an average GPA of 3.6 and are snapping up all of the plum jobs and med/law/business school slots because their students, on average, have higher GPAs.

          In fact, Harvard announced just two years ago that their average grade is an A-. Given the grade distribution we were required to maintain in my department, I wouldn’t be surprised if the same was true at the university I attended. A couple of sources have concluded that the average GPA at MIT is probably between a 4.2 and a 4.4 (equivalent of 3.2-3.4 on a 4.0 scale). So a person who got a 4.25 at MIT would be average. Now is average at MIT better than tippy-top at University of South Dakota? Maybe, but not necessarily.

          In fact, given what I’ve seen working with students from an elite university and also teaching summer students who came from a mix of colleges and universities (some from elite schools, some from schools I’ve never heard of, and everything in between), I’d say that if I were ever in the position to hire recent college graduates I’d pay less attention to where they graduated from and spend a lot more time looking at the things they did in college and beyond. This is especially true if the job requires writing, because one of the most interesting things I’ve learned is that elite college attendance does NOT guarantee good writing skills.

          That’s also neglecting the fact that GPA doesn’t really matter that much in job performance beyond a certain threshold. Were I hiring recent college graduates, given my experience with them, I wouldn’t much care about the difference between a 3.25 and a 3.67 or even a 4.0. In fact, I’m not sure I would ask for GPA at all were I hiring recent college grads.

          1. A Definite Beta Guy*

            one of the most interesting things I’ve learned is that elite college attendance does NOT guarantee good writing skills

            What writing skills do your recent employees need, if I may ask?

            In retrospect, academic writing exercises did not prepare me for the business world. My professors already understood the concepts in my papers, and rarely struggled with any of the core ideas or logical connections. They wanted arguments, possibilities, and insights.

            My account managers and co-workers, however, do not have specialization in my job function, and do not want standard economist “on the other hand” statements. They want clear explanations and actionable items.

            1. Ad Astra*

              I tested out of most of my required English courses in college, so almost all of my writing instruction was through the journalism school: huge emphasis on brevity and clarity. Most of the time, this comes in really hand in the business world — especially with emails and memos and such. Occasionally, I get the critique that a sentence doesn’t sound “official” enough, which guess means that it doesn’t include absurd phrases like “high rate of speed” and tons of passive voice.

          2. CA Admin*

            This is so true. I went to UC Berkeley and we had no grade inflation. I was so proud of my B+ in Calculus II (for Math majors and Engineers) because there were maybe a half dozen people in the entire 200-person lecture with a higher grade than me. Our nemeses across the Bay (*cough cough* Stanford) had a much easier time with grades because they were paying too much to fail. I’d have gotten an A in Calculus there.

          3. Christy*

            Fair. I would say that average at MIT is not necessarily better than a 4.0 at U South Dakota, but I would also say that a 4.0 at U South Dakota is not necessarily better than a 3.25 at MIT.

            I’m also weirdly biased about 4.0s because I had a friend at a state U who had a 4.0 who ended up making choices to protect his GPA over taking certain harder classes.

            (Also for the record I have an undergrad degree and a grad degree from different state universities.)

          4. Anonsie*

            The grade inflation thing is off the rails at all the top tier schools I’ve ever heard anything about, though I had always heard from students I knew there that MIT doesn’t have nearly the same problem with it that the others do. Maybe they were big liars, maybe they were there long enough ago that it was true once?

            1. TL -*

              It’s not as bad at MIT as at Harvard, but it’s still an issue that you wouldn’t see at somewhere like UT.

      2. fposte*

        More practically, are you really going to dive into the GPAs your manager received 20 years ago?

    4. fposte*

      As an academic, I’d say nope, nopity, nope, you’ve just revealed your inexperience and naivete, little scholar. One of the big kerfuffle posts was from somebody who was upset that he might be working for a dean with a degree from the University of Phoenix–I’ll post the link as it makes some interesting reading.

      2. Marcela*

        Yes, yes. In academia we mostly don’t care about the university. The only ( infuriating) exception, in my experience, is when applying to a permanent/tenure track position, where the candidate’ degree and specially his PhD supervisor’s degree, is too important for a system that claims to be a meritocracy. Apart from that, nobody cares where you got your degree, as most of time it’s only representative of the money you or your parents have, and/or how lucky you were in the place you were born, not your knowledge or competence.

        1. fposte*

          And a lot of that is about the program, not the university. North Dakota may have a more prestigious energy science grad degree than Harvard, for instance (I’m inventing but deliberately drawing on a Dakota strength).

          1. Melissa*

            I think a dean at North Dakota made a joke about the school being the Harvard of aviation. They have a really well-respected aviation program.

            2. NacSacJack*

              They do. UND is the premier place to get an Aviation degree around here. They maintain a fleet of planes for students to fly.

          2. Marcela*

            I’d love to believe that the program or specific area is more important than the university name. But I’m not sure, at least not in the area of physics/chemistry we are. My husband’s PhD supervisor is one of the European top professors in this area, now a Max Plank Institute director, but my husband did not get even an interview in 3 years of applications. In comparison, a couple of friends with PhDs from Harvard with a recently tenured professor in the same area (my husband was a postdoc there), got a tenure track position in their first try. Perhaps it’s that this specific area does not have a very strong school anywhere, being not as specialized as, I don’t know, aviation or energy science. I just don’t know, but it embitters me.

            1. fposte*

              That’s not my field, so I’m sure there are things I don’t know about. But I know there are some programs that have a single big-name person but don’t do much work beyond that or get much funding, so they don’t have much of an impact. I’m also not clear if we’re talking a European degree on the US market–if so, that’s going to be harder as well.

              But in general, the academic market is like trying to be a Navy Seal–look to the person to the left and right of you and assume that only one of you is going to make it. It’s really tough, and I’m sorry your husband (and therefore you) are having such a hard time.

              1. Marcela*

                My former boss used to say that academia was like Hollywood (he was an entrepreneur and our job was his first one in an academic environment): the ones that promoted themselves better got all the contracts and prizes. He said that talking specifically about my husband, who is a great scientist (hehe, what else can I say =^.^=) but even for his life can’t talk about himself and his research in the way is common here in academia in America, where he is supposed to talk about the big importance of what he does, the revolutionary of his ideas and in general, what a great scientist he is.

                Yeah, it’s tough. But in general I feel we are very lucky :D

    5. Beezus*

      If that was the only change? If the letter writer didn’t think the years of experience had enough weight to make up the difference, and/OR didn’t mention any shortcomings in the managers’ actual real-world abilities or effectiveness, I think the reaction would have been the same. I think the latter was a big deal.

    6. Christian Troy*

      If that kind of stuff matters to you, then you should do your research and focus your job search accordingly. There are plenty of companies that strongly favor certain “selective” schools and programs. But if you went to Columbia and you’re living in Tampa, you need to have some reasonable expectation that your school isn’t going to be highly represented there and you might have to work for someone from USF.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I went to a university that has an excellent reputation, is well-respected by many, and impresses a lot of people… who have heard of it. Leave the Northeast, and only people in certain circles have any idea what that school is or that it provides the education that it does. I worked for a very large company for a long time where you could lose track of all the Penn State, SUNY, Syracuse, and Rutgers alumni (still nothing to sneeze at, of course), but you could count the Ivy grads on your fingers. No one university gave anyone an academic advantage– alumni networks helped, sure, but that had little or nothing to do with the academic caliber of any one school.

      In short, my answer is– nope.

      1. Melissa*

        My college is like that too. When I told people where I went to school in the Southeast (where the college is located, and where I grew up), everyone had heard of it, it was well-respected, I got stereotyped because of it, and some people reacted like they thought I was going to be snobby and elitist because of where I went. Now when I tell people where I went to college, I have to append a description to the college.

      2. Clever Name*

        I went to TCU and graduated from a program that is very well-respected regionally. Now that I live in a different part of the country, people will ask me, “Oh, you went to Bible college?” Er no.

    8. GOG11*

      I think the only way the problem wouldn’t be purely the asker’s issue is if the degree were from a for-profit university. I could see someone struggling to take that seriously and it being an issue with the degree due to the actual and rumored problems that come with certain for-profit schools (rather than a problem with elitism, mis-perceptions based on asker’s understanding of things, etc.).

      However, if it’s for-profit degree + 20 years of experience, I still think the experience trumps whatever degree, even to the point that many would find the degree a moot point because a great track record speaks for itself.

    9. Anonsie*

      No. Were you expecting that it would be or are you just generally curious?

      PS on that thought, it was late in the day but if you haven’t seen it yet everyone needs to see that letter writer’s update in the comments. It’s… Disappointing.

      1. ACA*

        Oh man, I’d missed that; just went back and read it. “Disappointing” is definitely a kind word for it.

        1. Shannon*

          I can’t believe the OP likened the response to her question to Nazism and slavery. Well, I can, I just don’t want to.

      2. Marcela*

        Do you remember the username OP used? I can’t find the update, unless I read all comments…

        2. L*

          Username was: Wow. To everyone involved in this.

          It’s unfortunately about what you’d expect.

      3. Charlotte Collins*

        I just went back and read the the OP’s comments. Then had flashbacks to when I did customer service for a health benefit. We always hated the calls from the psych providers, because they were often rude, unreasonable, and pretty full of themselves (not all, but a significant number). And they did their own billing, as opposed to hiring billing specialists – which interestingly enough does require specialized education and certification (due to such regular changes). Makes me wonder if the OP also has their AAPC certification or if s/he used properly educated specialists to handle claims.

        On the other hand, I always had great experiences talking to anyone from a pediatricians’ office.

        1. Anonsie*

          I guess because a lot of psych providers are one-person businesses all on their own? I have heard a lot of horror stories about psych practice billing, now that you mention it, though even when you’re doing it right psych billing is kind of outlandish to my layman’s sensibilities.

        2. phillist*

          There are people who would be surprised that medical billing is complicated and that you might need specialists for it?

          Wow. Hope those people don’t like getting paid for their services!

          Medical Billing is extremely complex. Especially psych, where individual insurances tend to make exceptions–so, your psychiatric treatment might be billed under medical but your therapy sessions might be billed under counseling through third-party coverage that partners with their medical insurance. And every insurance is different in their approach to mental health and how/what they’ll cover. And woe betide you if you work for an org that also gets grant money, and you have to work within the parameters of those grants (funding can go to this, but not to this and not if it’s paired with XYZ CPT code…).

          Sorry for the tangent but just…wow. My mind is blown.

          1. Charlotte Collins*

            No – some people just like yelling at underpaid CSRs that they aren’t getting paid for their services, rather than just educate themselves to bill correctly or hire someone to do it for them. (I have a lot of respect for medical billing specialists – it’s a complicated job that requires regular retraining due to yearly changes in Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance. And with ICD-10 coming – wow! Anyone in healthcare will know what I’m talking about.)

      4. Karowen*

        Disappointing? I think the word you’re looking for is hilarious in its obstinacy. Because if I believe that she was serious at any point, I’d cry. Real tears.

        2. A Definite Beta Guy*

          Perhaps this is just my Millennial generation, but accountants are not going to take non-accountants seriously. They’ve taken 5 years of classes with fail rates higher than many hard sciences, and then studied years to pass a major exam roughly on par with the Bar in terms of difficulty.

          You asking them to take a Motion Sciences major seriously as an Accountant is like asking a group of lawyers to take a Basket Weaver seriously as a lawyer. You can ask it, they might even politely nod, but most of them will think you have lost your marbles.

          1. AthenaC*

            Plus, if you spend some time as an auditor (at any tier of the market), stories abound of:

            – the medical practice accounting staff who don’t know what “accounts receivable” refers to or why one might need a valuation allowance on medical practice receivables. Their boss (the CFO) doesn’t know either.
            – the controller that blinks at you in confusion when you ask, “Where is the other side of this entry? You’ve shown me the credit to A/P, where did the debit go?”

            And many others. The one thing they consistently have in common? No CPA or accounting education. Knowing how to enter transactions in is no substitute for knowing why things are done a certain way, and one is unlikely to learn the “why” on the job. Accounting jobs aren’t designed to teach a person accounting; they are designed to assign people queues of tasks that they have to clear.

          2. fposte*

            It’s not about how seriously you take the major, it’s about how seriously you take the manager. This is what people working in that OP’s health care organization did 20 years ago. Majors are only a means to an end–if the end is that this person, 20 years on, is a decent and effective manager, that’s what matters, whether they got there by the high road or the low road.

            And Navy SEALs pass tests much harder than accountants have to undergo, but that doesn’t mean they’d be better suited to running a finance office. The ability to leap hurdles only matters when those are the obstacles on your road.

      7. Windchime*

        Yeah, my opinion of the OP hasn’t changed for the positive. I could see a snotty 20 year old saying those things, but the fact that it’s a 40 year old so-called “professional” person–wow. I think this guy is going to have a tough row to hoe with this big chip on his shoulder (and yes, I did mix my metaphors, thanks for noticing!)

    10. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve learned not to judge people by the schools they went to, for at least the following reasons:

      1. Some of the people I most respect as people and professionals went to less-prestigious schools.

      2. Most prestigious schools are prohibitively expensive, so sometimes attending a state school or community college is the only (relatively) “affordable” way to get a college degree.

      3. Even if there is some actual indicator of drive or intellect that a prestigious school attendance reflects, that was one time in that person’s life (usually ages 18-22). People grow and change and learn. If you talk to a lot of adult professionals in their 30s, 40s, and beyond, you’ll find many did stupid things when they were young or were less mature or less learned. Thinking less of someone based on what school she went to ten or twenty years ago makes no sense.

      4. Related to #3, most people’s day-to-day jobs have very little to do with the actual stuff they studied in college. Yes, you can gain other things from what school you attend (networking with alumni, out-of-classroom intellectual discussions), but chances are the academic classes you took did very little to practically prepare you for the working world (I was an English major—believe me, I know).

    11. Ad Astra*

      An MIT degree is very impressive, and will certainly catch my eye when I’m thumbing through resumes. But the only thing I know for absolute certain about an MIT grad is that they’re really good at school. Great! I love school! But work is not school. What matters is how good you are at doing this job, in this company. The MIT grad might have a dreamy list of hard skills, all the necessary soft skills, great industry knowledge, and a sparkling personality, but then… the South Dakota grad might have all those things too.

      Not to mention, there are many people who were smart enough to go to MIT but chose a place like University of South Dakota to avoid taking out loans, or to care for their sick parents, or to play on the football team, or because they hate Boston. The name of someone’s school is not, by itself, enough information to tell me who’s better at their job.

      1. TL -*

        Or a lot of people go to MIT even though it’s a terrible fit for them and have an absolutely horrible time that may actually interfere with their ability to get the education they need, when university of south Dakota would have been a better fit and allowed them more time to focus on an educating they enjoyed/valued while being able to develop things like social skills and outside interests. And they would have been a better employee for having gone to a less prestigious school.

  26. Webinar tips*

    I’m filling in for a coworker next week presenting a webinar. I’ve presented before, but never in a virtual format. Does anyone have any tips I should be aware of? Are the PowerPoint rules the same for a webinar as they are for an in person presentation? Thanks!

    1. Elkay*

      Make sure you’re comfortable with the audio options so you can trouble shoot for attendees if necessary. Communicate how you want to take questions – audio, using the “hand up” option in webex, typed questions. Can you do a dry run with a colleage?

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      1) If you have any say over the content/agenda, build in LOTS of opportunity for engagement. People learn better from having conversations about ideas than just hearing them delivered. Good training follows a cycle of anchoring people with knowledge they already have, adding to that knowledge, and giving them an opportunity to apply the new knowledge. Even if you’re not training, you can use the same concepts to help make sure whatever message you’re delivering sticks. So, e.g., in a webinar in which you’re reporting about sales results from this quarter, you could start by asking participants to chat in the sales successes or challenges they’ve had or observed in the past few months; then walk through the numbers; then ask participants to reflect about and chat in ideas they have about what the results mean – what are the trends they observed, what are they worried or excited about, what does it make them think about actions they might take next quarter, etc. Even if your goal is just for them to know the sales results, thinking about them in this way will help them sink in far better than just seeing slides with graphs.

      2) If you will have the chat open to participants, assign someone other than you to manage the chat – you will not be able to keep up with it. (And if you have say over whether you use the chat, definitely use it – people are way more engaged with questions/responses/etc. in the chat than by voice).

      3) If you are using video, remember to look at the camera, not the screen. That way, you will appear to be looking at participants when they view your stream. You may want to tape key points/notes/etc. up near the camera so you don’t have to look down for them.

      4) Speak more slowly than you normally do. It will sound weird to you, but be easier for participants to hear and understand.

      1. powerpoints*

        I came back up here from my question below on powerpoints…these are such great suggestions, thank you!

        Is it overkill to ask a question with nearly every slide? I’m going to be covering some Topic X basics at the beginning (for new staff and because a lot of existing staff doesn’t know that much about it, isn’t confident in it). One slide is like, Types of X (ask audience to name types of X before diving into content); next slide, Benefits of X (ask audience to guess some benefits first). And this is for several slides.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          I wouldn’t ask just for the sake of asking on every slide. In fact, I wouldn’t even think about the presentation as a series of slides.

          Instead, I’d think about the content you want to deliver/the knowledge you want them to walk away with, and build the presentation to support that. If you’re covering a lot of basics at the beginning, I’d probably try to draw out the knowledge that some of the people in the room have. I might start with a slide that just lists the headers for the kind of content you’re covering, like this:

          – Types of X
          – Benefits of X
          – Challenges with X

          etc.

          Then acknowledge that some folks already have experience with X and ask them to share their experiences. What types of X have they used? What were the benefits? etc. Capture that info on your slide deck, or on a whiteboard or whatever. Next you might go to a series of slides that has the content you want to deliver (a slide for types of X, a slide for benefits of X, etc.) and just go over the pieces that they audience didn’t come up with themselves.

          I’m a total training nerd and I’d actually be super happy to keep talking about this. Do you want to share your email and we can talk more there?

          1. Powerpoints*

            You’ve really inspired me! I’m going to do the “basics” section as you described and I can even do a big piece of the policy section this way, too, I think! I’m on mobile but I’ll put an anonymized email today and hopefully we can connect!

        2. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

          There are many, many different ‘philosophies’ on how to use PowerPoint. I’ve noticed that some people (Steve Jobs, for example) would prioritize the speaker’s words over the PPT content. So you’d have a foil that simply had the number “250,000,000” on it, and SJ would chime in with “the number of iOS devices in the world today” (or something) and expound at length.

          At the other end of the spectrum, it’s like: you’re expecting people to refer to the PPT material at a later date, and so the foils contain a lot more information. I’ve observed a lot of variation in how people speak with this kind of PPT, but in general they’ll provide some kind of summary.

          Pragmatically, I’d advise that you show up early so you have time to do a trial run and debug things. Ideally, you’ll have an assistant to help you with technical issues – you don’t want everyone waiting on you while you attempt to help someone with an audio issue. If someone asks a question, always repeat it for the benefit of everyone else before you launch into an answer. My personal experience with these things is that they often do not start on time due to one or more people having technical issues, so steel yourself to just launch into the presentation at no later than 5 minutes after the scheduled time. Is there someone who is ‘running’ the technical aspects of the webinar? If so, make sure you talk to them beforehand and ask them for tips.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Agreed, speak slowly. And pause after either every slide or every couple of slides, and ask if anyone has questions. Not being able to see the room makes things tough, but only slightly.

      Smile when you speak– it will keep you sounding engaged. I tend to be an “active” presenter, talking with my hands, moving around, and I do that even if no one else can see me.

      Practice not letting your voice “sink”. It’s so easy to get kind of gravelly and flat as you present to no one, with no visible reactions.

    5. Rowan*

      You will have to work much harder for participation – take a list of the people’s names and address them by name whenever you want them to contribute.

      If you can have someone else there to provide support should anyone struggle logging in, keep an eye on the chat and mute anyone who’s forgotten that there’s a webinar happening and is merrily singing while they wash their dishes (this has happened to me!) do.

      Good luck!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Am shaking my head. I just had a webinar this week and I felt sooo very embarrassed for the person.
      My learning experiences:
      1) Be used to the sound of your own voice. (I thought that was obvious, guess not, though.)
      2)Don’t apologize every time you stutter. It makes the listeners feel bad. Ignore the stutter, move on.
      3)Make sure people have what they need before you start. If you are into the webinar and people are still asking where the PP is to print out they are not listening to you.
      4) Make sure you have your facts straight before you start. If you are uncertain on a particular fact do not repeat it five times as being Fact. When the Big Wig calls you in the middle of the webinar to correct you about Fact, try not to sound like someone killed your puppy dog as you explain that Fact may not be accurate.
      5) If you have a Q and A time, before you start the Q and A make sure you state what types of questions you will handle right now and what types of questions the listener needs to email to you. Let’s say you are not set up to handle situation specific questions, just say that so everyone knows what to expect.

      Yeah, I felt bad about this whole thing. I think what happened was someone got to work and was told, “BTW, you are doing a webinar in 3 hours.” Not good.

  27. Katie the Fed*

    I had to let a contractor go this week. It’s easier than firing a government employee, but it’s still not easy. Especially because of the hiring and contracting slowdown, removing someone from a contract can be as good as firing them – their companies probably won’t keep them around if they’re not performing well for clients.

    In this case it was someone who was gonig through the steps of making an effort, but just wasn’t improving. We’re paying good money for a certain capability level. I worked with him on specific issues but there just wasn’t improvement so I had to cut him loose for the good of the team. THe team is very relieved – they had been carrying him and he was really dead weight on the team.

    But he really didn’t take it well at all. I think his background was a mismatch for the position but..ugh. It was an awful conversation.

    1. it happens*

      You made your employees happy, hooray!
      Could you please go over to windchime’s office and take care of her problem now? ;)
      We really should have a guest-employee-manager program – ‘oh, hey, I have this problem that you’ve solved in your place, wanna come over and do it again for a week here?’

      1. OfficePrincess*

        That would be fantastic. Someone to objectively deal with the situation without the complicated part where you know he’s a good guy/great at lightening the mood/great baker/single parent/just bought a house/whatever unrelated issue.

        2. Windchime*

          No kidding, that would be awesome. Not awesome that the guy would be getting let go, but for someone completely unbiased and uninvolved to make the decision.

    2. OfficePrincess*

      I’m sure it was a tough conversation, but it spared you how many more difficult conversations with him trying to drag him up to where he needed to be or with the rest of your team about how they’re frustrated and struggling to pick up the slack?

    3. cuppa*

      Letting someone go has to be one of the hardest good things you can do for a team. That sucks!

    4. Same*

      Same thing for me, except (1) it was an employee and (2) coworkers couldn’t really see that he wasn’t doing his job except for his manager. The rest of staff is stunned at the sudden departure, and he left threatening to sue and calling us names. It is an ugly part of the job. I feel completely wrung out, so much empathy!!!

    5. The Toxic Avenger*

      Hi, Katie – is this the person you’ve talked about before? The person who you tried and tried with?

    7. Ama*

      I’m sure it was horrible, but good for you. I’ve been an employee stuck picking up slack for someone who everyone knew was slacking off but whose boss wouldn’t hear a word said against her and it is a real morale sapper.

    8. AnotherFed*

      Good for you! It being hard just means you actually thought about it and tried to help. But when your team is relieved to see someone go, that’s a really big indicator that you’ve done the right thing – this guy may even have been negative help if one less set of hands is being seen as relief.

    9. phillist*

      Ugh, I think I have to do this soon (with an employee, not a contractor).

      I know my team’s primary response will be relief, but this person has a lot of personal problems and even though I have long developed the Managerial Thick Skin of Survival, I still feel badly about it. I’m trying everything I can to save them, but ultimately it’s so far beyond being a bad fit, it’s painful.

  28. Amelia*

    I had a good laugh at a rejection email I got the other week. The subject line just said “Decline”. I think whoever set up their rejection form letter could have picked a less rude phrase. :P

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Ha! I wonder if they choose that over “Hell No!”
      Rest assured, you probably wouldn’t want to work for a company that doesn’t care about how they treat their candidates.

    4. CollegeAdmin*

      When I applied for an internal position that was later canceled, my status in the application system went from “Interviewing” to “No.” Perhaps our HR people went to the same school of one-word negative responses?

    5. GOG11*

      For some reason, this makes me think about Daleks. “REPUDIATE!” (closest “-ate” word I could find for reject…)

        1. YourOwnPersonalCheeses*

          An old boss of mine used to write TERMINATED across the schedule of employees who left (and it didn’t matter whether they were fired or had quit). Yeah, real nice, boss!

    6. Kai*

      Ouch!

      I just applied for a job and got a rejection within 40 minutes, so I’m feeling the sting pretty good today, too.

    7. Charlotte Lucas*

      Perhaps they were giving advice on what to do should you receive a job offer from them?

    8. Pokémon Trainer*

      Slightly different situation, but I received a “Sorry, you weren’t admitted” email from a graduate program I applied to several years ago and a week later, received another rejection from the university via physical mail. Point taken :p

    9. Lindsay J*

      Maybe they intended that to be the saved title for the rejection template, rather than the title for the email itself?

  29. Clarifying Role*

    So one of our newer employees seems confused about my role in the company and I think I need to sit him down and clarify with him. He came from an academic background to our small company (less than 25 employees) and was warned before ever being offered the job that we have very limited support staff and everyone has to fend for themselves, for the most part. I am the Operations Manager and wear many different hats, yay small company, but support of our mid-level engineers is not one of them. We really don’t have anyone that does.

    Does anyone have phrasing or words of wisdom for how they’ve had that type of conversation in the past?

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      I like what you said above, basically, “This is a small company with very limited support staff, so all employees must take care of all those details [like blank, blank recent requests] that support staff usually handles in larger companies. I won’t be able to help you with those kinds of things.”

      1. fposte*

        I might be even more specific. “Bob, you’ve asked me to do your copying. That’s not what I do, and everybody here is expected to do their own copying–that also goes for communication with vendors and making travel arrangements, both of which you’ve asked me to do. If you have questions about other duties you’re not sure if you’re supposed to handle, let me know and I’ll be happy to tell you.”

        And if you have done any of these to be nice, stop completely.

        1. Clarifying Role*

          I like this wording. Thanks. So far I’ve pushed back on everything but since it seems like a pattern, I think I need to be specific with him to avoid future requests.

    2. cuppa*

      Well, when it happened to me, I really didn’t like the guy and basically told him, “I have too many important things to do than to answer your phone.” YMMV, but it worked for me :)

      He ended up being put out to pasture for other reasons not much later after that, which is why I think I didn’t get in trouble for it.

      1. Clarifying Role*

        I’ve been tempted with that and suspect the same will happen with this person as yours. There are already other red flags that are worrying people. Time will tell…

    3. Anonylicious*

      “I’m not your damn secretary.” (This is why no one asks me for words of wisdom.)

        1. INFJ*

          I employ this tactic with my boyfriend.

          BF: I really wish we had another shoe rack like this one.

          Me: You know where bed bath & beyond is.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I had to explain to a person that they had to do X on their own. (Where X was a distasteful task.)
      “When X happens, we do not have Y employee to remedy that. So we all do it for ourselves and on our own. We are not that large a place and there is not that many of us to justify having a Y person.”

      I would also give examples of what your role in this person’s work life is. “I do A, B and C. If you need M or N, I am the person you talk to.” I think the only way to get through it is to be specific.

      2. Mike C.*

        It’s disgusting, but won’t get far. I think it’s more of a “look what I did” for the elections than anything else.

  31. Not My Usual Name*

    It’s been a few Fridays since I was able to post, but I am now halfway through my notice period following being terminated. The good news is I have some interviews lined up, plus the feedback from 2 second round interviews, but I don’t like the uncertainty. There is also the risk of a gap in my CV, but I might be able to spin it as taking a holiday before commencing a new job.

  32. NicoleK*

    So I need suggestions on how to break this terrible habit. I tend to roll my eyes when I’m annoyed. Obviously, it’s not a great coping mechanism in the work place. Help….

    1. OfficePrincess*

      I have a very transparent face, so I feel you. I will split my attention a bit and think about something completely unrelated like “lemons are tart, Percival is an idiot, did I turn the dishwasher on when I left this morning?” Obviously there are times when you have to pay full attention, but normally just one fleeting thought is enough to keep a neutral expression. When that’s not an option, try doing something physical like pushing your foot up against the chair leg or tapping your finger on your leg if you can do it without being seen.

      1. Diddly*

        This is useful I also have a v transparent face – which I learned when someone videoed me peeved off and I thought I was giving off neutral vibes… Yeesh – scared myself,

      2. Melissa*

        Ha, I was about to make the same recommendation. When I hear something that makes me want to roll my eyes, I have to very quickly think of something unrelated. “Puppies! Puppies are cute. Wow, the sky sure is blue today.”

    2. Cordelia Naismith*

      I’ve found HabitRPG to be really helpful when trying to break a bad habit (or start a good one).

        1. Gandalf the Nude*

          Whoa. This is going to change my life. It would be nice to have a clean kitchen for more than a few days at a time!

    3. fposte*

      Find another one. It’s easier to change a habit than to extinguish it. What about trying to take a deep breath, or stretch your toes, or something harmless and maybe even beneficial instead?

    4. msbadbar*

      This is a little goofy, but I wanted to share it. I recently got the idea to pretend that I’m beige paint–flat, neutral, unexciting–when I feel frustrated at work. (Seriously.) When I need to, I think, “beige paint.” This is even goofier, but I’m thinking about pick up one of those paint samples in beige and tape it to my monitor.
      :P

      1. OfficePrincess*

        Hey whatever works. At OldJob I had a small picture of an inhaler on my monitor to remind me to breathe. (Three guesses why I left….)

      2. Slimy Contractor*

        I used to keep a tiny rubber duck at my desk to remind me to let things roll off me like water off a duck’s back. It started one day when I was kvetching to a coworker, and I said, “I need to let it roll off my back. I need to be Zen about it. I need to be a Zen duck!” I would say “Zen duck” to myself, then take a deep breath and look at the duck to get recentered.

      3. GOG11*

        This is such a good idea. I try to be neutral to some of my colleagues and it doesn’t always come out well.

        Colleague: Do you know if so-and-so got divorced? I saw it in the paper. Is it THE so-and-so we work with?
        What I mean to say: I don’t know. *shrug* Isn’t the weather nice?
        What it comes out like: No, I don’t know if so-and-so got divorced, and if I did, I wouldn’t tell you…if so-and-so wants you to know, so-and-so will. tell. you.

        Beige paint.

    5. Anie*

      I roll my eyes a LOT when annoyed…but I also do it when not paying attention or when thinking.–as in I kind of glance up and to the side to contemplate new information. I got called out once and it was so horrible. I was meeting with a really well-respected person in my industry. He was speaking in a small, sit-down group and I glanced away to think about a point he’d made. He hard stopped and asked me point-blank why I’d just rolled my eyes at him. I was baffled and embarrassed and like, “Wut?! Nooooooo.”

      There was no saving that meeting. And I still haven’t broken the habit. :/

      1. SherryD*

        I’m so glad to hear it’s not just me! I was called out once for being an eye-roller, and I was completely humiliated. And surprised and confused. And shamed. I didn’t even know I was doing it.

    6. Charlotte Lucas*

      My sister does this, and she has unusually large eyes, so it’s really noticeable. I do it but not as much. I’m more likely to close my eyes when I feel like this. People who know me well know what it means.

      When I was an instructor/trainer, my classes always knew that when I covered my eyes with my hands – look out!

  33. Jennifer M.*

    I recently transferred from a satellite office back to the HQ because the project in the satellite was done (3 year project). I was in HQ before then. They have a program for returning corporate employees where we get 3 months to find a job within the existing opening. Well, we get 3 months of guaranteed work but they will extend it if you are in demand. I’ve been filling in with my old department as it is recruiting replacements for departures, though quiteOne I wan frankly I will not go back there full time.

    Anyway, I had 2 interviews 2 weeks ago for internal positions. One I wanted and one I didn’t. I got a call from HR on Monday for the one I wanted. I didn’t get it. But the Managing Director of that department pulled me aside to let me know that this wasn’t the end of it. She wants me in her department but the team wanted someone with more new business experience (it wasn’t a new biz role) and she felt like she should defer to their preference. However, my old dept (A) interacts with this desired dept (B) and the person in A assigned to support B is leaving at the end of the month because his family is moving for his wife’s job. The Managing Director asked if I could cover for him while dept A recruits for the replacement that way everyone in Dept B could get to know me. I had previously helped out for a week in June and those who worked with me did have great feedback and since she expects to have another opening in the next 6-8 weeks (it depends on winning some new contracts), she thought this would be a good opportunity. So fingers crossed that this works out.

  34. TLT*

    In January, I interviewed twice for a position that I was the “second first choice” for, meaning I didn’t get the job. Last week, I got a call from a recruiter at this local government agency telling me their hire didn’t work out and was I still interested. I said yes, she relayed this and my salary request to the hiring manager who emailed me and said that she should have an answer by Tuesday of this week. Well, Tuesday has come and gone, I haven’t heard anything. So I called the recruiter Wednesday. I still haven’t heard anything and I’m so annoyed/frustrated! Is this typical with local government agencies to get held up like this? Do I call the recruiter again?

    1. Chocolate Teapot*

      I think it’s an issue with recruiters everywhere. My rule of thumb is that if they say they will have a response by the beginning of the week, expect it by the end.

      Hope the position works out!

      1. TLT*

        Thanks for the luck! The other complicating factor is that while I was not pregnant when interviewing, now I am 27 weeks pregnant and haven’t had a chance to meet in person. I didn’t want to disclose this until I have an offer, so here I am getting more pregnant by the second as I wait for a call from either the hiring manager or the recruiter. Ugh, patience is a virtue I am currently not possessing.

  35. kozinskey*

    I have a lot of issues with the job I’m in and desperately want to move on, but I’ve pretty much decided to stick it out until I hit the 3-year mark because that’s when my retirement benefits vest 100%. I’ve been here a year and 10 months, and this is my first job in this field. It’s a state job, so benefits are handled through a different agency rather than our HR person. This week, I received a retirement benefits statement saying my benefits had vested — they had calculated my date of hire from when I was here as an intern, rather than when I started full-time a year later. I’m 99% sure this was a mistake on their part, but it’s making me want to start my job hunt right now.

    Would I be ethically in the wrong if I didn’t contact the retirement office about this? What are the chances they wouldn’t notice the error if I left before my 3 years were up?

    2. Diddly*

      I’m not sure about ethically. But if it’s a wrong calculation and you leave early based on it, and then they figure it out then I would assume you lose out, so it could make things tenuous for you – I don’t like living under an uncertainty that could later bite me, so I’d check with HR how your start date was calculated.
      I’m not sure by what you mean by being vested – but is it worth waiting out 2 years to do so at a job you don’t like? I don’t think you lose anything by looking for jobs whether it’s an error or not.

      1. kozinskey*

        The retirement plan is set up so that I contribute X amount every month, and my employer puts in X*1.5 percent every month. It’s a fantastic plan. Right now I have about $4000 of my own money in there and $6,000 of my employer’s, but I won’t be entitled to any part of the share my employer put in until I’ve contributed for 3 years.

        It’s enough extra to make me want to stick it out, but I’m also at the start of my career and will have lots of time to build up retirement anywhere. On the other hand, I’d only have to wait a year and two months for it to be vested under my correct start date, and the closer I get to the 3-year mark, the more money I’d leave on the table by walking out early. Getting that statement has just made me weigh these factors all over again =\

        1. fposte*

          They will have no compunction whatsoever about a clawback if it turns out this is in error and you leave assuming it’s correct, and that’s going to be a royal PITA. I would either call and clarify, since it’s possible that legally your intern hire *does* count, or pretend I never saw the statement. But I wouldn’t believe it was wrong and hope it would be right.

          1. K*

            Agree. I don’t see why you’re assuming it’s an error. They probably know what they’re doing. Does it say anywhere in the paperwork that internships don’t count?

            1. kozinskey*

              Well, I wasn’t contributing to the plan as an intern receiving hourly pay & no benefits. The plan brochure says you have to contribute for 3 years. Moreover, I was a summer intern, so even if the 3 months I was there counted, there would still be almost a year when I wasn’t employed by the state at all being counted if they went off my first hire date.

              1. fposte*

                Call and clarify, then, or ignore it and go with the date you know to be true. Don’t move forward as if this were right–I really think you’ll be sorry.

                And do the math, and redo it every time you look at a job possibility. Don’t get blinded by the sunk-cost fallacy. If you find a good job that pays $2k more, that’ll make up the $6k difference in only three years, and you’ll like the job better, which I’d say is worth $6k on its own.

          2. kozinskey*

            Ooh, you raise a good point about how much of an annoyance it would be if they figured it out after the fact. I could absolutely see that slipping by them until the time came for them to pay out and then making a big mess out of figuring out what share is mine at that point.

        2. Monodon monoceros*

          I would 1) check the date of hire policy. I worked a state job as an intern once, and i think that time counted for vesting. I know it counts for “time in service” if I ever worked for them again; 2) start looking at new jobs. Be picky. If something really amazing comes up, then you can decide whether that job is worth more than the money you’ll leave on the table.

        3. Not HR*

          Ask.
          You say two different things, tho: you have to work there three years and that you have to have contributed for three years. If it’s work there three years and your (presumably paid) internship counts, that’s one thing. If it’s contributed to the retirement plan for three years that’s different.
          I’d get this clarified, and in writing.

          And good for you for contributing to your retirement plan so early in your career!

    3. MaryMary*

      It may not be an error, sometimes retirement benefits eligibility goes back to original date of hire, even if you weren’t eligibile for other benefits like health insurance as an intern.

      If it is an error, neither your employer or the administrator is obligated to allow you to stay vested when you shouldn’t be. They might not even notify you that they identified and fixed the error if you’re still actively employed and accruing service. Once you leave, they may or may not go after you to get their money back. Sometimes employers don’t collect if it’s their error. However, since you work for the state, I think it’s likely they’d try recoup the money. I get where you’re coming from, but you’re better off calling to see if it’s an error or not.

    4. kozinskey*

      I just called them. The person I spoke with was able to tell me immediately that I’m not vested. She also said there’s no way to fix the statements I get so they show the correct date of hire & vesting date. I feel like that’s a little bizarre, but maybe just a function of state government systems. At any rate, I’m glad I called & know where I stand with them.

    5. Steve G*

      Are you sure staying is worth the $$? If you are new to the field and it is a state job, let’s estimate your salary at 40K. You contribute 6%, they contribute 1/2, or 3%. So you’ve put in $4400, they’ve put in $2200, as per month 22. Is losing $2200 really that important at this point? I could see it making a big difference if tens of thousands are at stake, but not if the amount is less than….IDK…my cutoff would be about $7K-$8K.

    6. AnonAcademic*

      Don’t assume. I thought I didn’t qualify for an employer’s pension plan because the handbook said you had to have 3 years and I left at 2 years 10 months. Imagine my surprise when I got a pension statement from them in the mail a few months later! They had been autodeducting from my paycheck and I never even noticed.

    8. Sunday*

      Question: what are your self confidence and work habits worth to you? That’s the choice you seem to be making.
      How long will it take to recover them in a new job? How will that change your earning potential?
      My vote is to start looking. You may find something terrific in your agency/state system that allows you to continue to accrue and vest but you may find something better elsewhere.
      Good luck to you.

  36. Helen of What*

    I had an odd interview experience and then saw it come up elsewhere, so I thought I’d ask if it was common. In my interview, I spoke to two would-be coworkers and one of them managed to interrupt me, ask difficult questions very quickly after I’d answered the previous one, and basically did his best to interrogate me about how I would handle tricky situations that often come up in the role. I didn’t let it phase me, and when that part of the interview was over I heard the team laughing outside, and the words “She handled it well!” (And indeed, I did make it to the next interview stage.) I guess they wanted to see how I handle pressure.

    Today, I just read a glassdoor review where the interviewer was intentionally irritating and rude, and condescending, probably to see how the interviewee would react. I think it’s terrible to surprise someone this way! Has anyone else had this experience, or has an inkling of why employers would do it?

    1. Diddly*

      Yes – once happened to me – it was literally like the interviewers were playing good cop and bad cop. I’m not sure if they were doing it intentionally, but it came off that way. It just seemed dumb really, the other interviewer – bad cop – was dismissive and rude, I think now I would have been able to speak for myself but then I was taken off guard.
      I think it somewhat makes sense to see how the candidate deals with pressure – and for instance difficult people/customers – but it also might put your candidate off from wanting to work there with difficult people. So I guess you were lucky in hearing – she got through it! – because you knew that wasn’t what it was like day-to-day (?) otherwise it’s indicating this person is a difficult person and you managed them well. (But who wants to do that daily…)
      Lol I’m torn, interviewers seem to forget they’re likely your first impression of the company – they’ve got to come across well too… And confusing stuff like this doesn’t help.

      1. Helen of What*

        Yeah, it helped them that the “bad cop” chilled out after the initial interrogation. But it was very weird, and could easily put off lots of otherwise stellar candidates. They never called, anyway!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I wouldn’t handle that well. I would assume the interviewers are jerks and would turn down any future interviews/offers. Even being told it was a “test” couldn’t repair the impression the interviewers made.

    3. Ad Astra*

      That’s really weird, and for me would be a sign that this is not an office culture I want to be a part of.

      I did have a job where my coworkers and I got to talk with candidates who would potentially become peers, but we asked pretty basic questions and spent most of our time answering questions. A group of 3-5 people “interviewing” a single candidate can be kind of an intimidating setup, but we definitely didn’t interrogate them like this. So weird.

    4. cuppa*

      I don’t like being interrogated and stressed, and I don’t like being manipulated to be “tested”, so even if I passed their stupid test I wouldn’t take the job.

    5. fposte*

      There are a few situations where a stress interview makes sense, but most of the time it’s just because the interviewer likes the idea. And in that case, it’s just dumb.

      1. Anx*

        Some of my very first interviews were stress interviews, but I haven’t had as much of them lately. I think they really screwed me up during my job search. I was so nervous all of the time. Maybe they were more in vogue in 2009?

        The worst interviews have been the ones after which I couldn’t tell if the interviewer was a jerk or trying to stress me out.

    6. Malissa*

      At my last job my predecessor, in the interview, fired questions at me like it was the final timed round on Family Fued. I fired my answers back just as quickly.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t like this sort of thing–you don’t expect people to be rude in interviews, and it rarely mirrors on-the-job stress. The incentives would have to be really spectacular for me to dismiss this kind of thing.

      The one time I had to deal with good cop/bad cop, it was with actual cops, and I just ignored the rude, interrupting one and talked to his partner.

    8. AnotherFed*

      I’ve never had this happen where the intent was to be rude and interrogating, but I have seen some interviews for jobs that involved a lot briefing to non-nonsense, inquisitive audiences set up the interview to mirror how a lot of the presenting would work. My organization’s culture also tends towards brusque and formal until you know the person well. That combo could absolutely seem like an interrogation if you didn’t realize that it was pretty normal for the job and that part of presenting well to that audience is keeping it utterly factual and non-emotional, no matter what the questions are – whether bizarre, insulting, completely idiotic, totally unrelated, etc.

    9. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

      I’ve been interviewing a lot of people recently, and as part of that I’m coming into contact with other people who are conducting interviews, and there’s just a lot of variation on how people choose to conduct an interview. Earlier this year I conducted a number of interviews with one or two other people as ‘co-interviewers’ – we had a general agreement about the overall flow of the interview, but we never conspired to any kind of good cop / bad cop routine. That could be a sign of a crappy “Repo Man” workplace culture – or it could simply be that the interviewers are kinda jerk-y.

      We never tried to make anyone tense up – in fact, we put a lot of effort into trying to get people to relax, as we didn’t want them to think we were ‘ganging up’ on them. However, tense moments did arise spontaneously, and we’d definitely notice when it happened, and it was not unusual for us to discuss how well (or un-well) the candidate handled it.

      BTW: having two or three people interview a person at the same time worked out better than I would have thought. It saved a lot of time, plus having a post-interview discussion was very useful.

    10. INFJ*

      This is awful. I think the person doing this doesn’t realize he may be unnecessarily alienating a future coworker. I would be particularly embarrassed/humiliated if I heard the coworker laughing about it later.

      I don’t think you should view this as a reflection of the company per we, since this seemed to be the bad idea of one person, not in management.

  37. A note about counter offers*

    Last fall I applied for and got an offer for a position in LA with a huge pay raise. I got my offer letter and I gave notice to my current employer (in San Diego). My current manager went to some meetings, made some calls and on my last day, came back with a counter offer. The money was not as good, but worth it to me to not have to move (and not have to live/work in Los Angeles). So the Friday before I was scheduled to start on Monday, I had to call the new job and tell them I was not coming. Of course, that conversation was not pleasant; burnt bridge there. Fast forward to last month, and due to failing sales, guess who was the first laid off at my company. Lesson learned – if you get a good offer, take it, expand your horizons and move on – even if things seem amicable, or strictly business, there is always the chance of some resentment when you strong arm your company for more money with an ultimatum.

    1. Laurel Gray*

      Damn! I am so sorry this happened to you. This is another story I have to save and file in the “never take a counter offer ever” box. In the moment I know that can be a very difficult decision.

  38. Jennifer*

    Not only did I not get the job I really wanted, I didn’t even make it to the second round. Because even with over a decade of experience in an obscure specialty, I STILL WASN’T ENOUGH.
    I am so angry and sad. I am convinced that God must want me to get fired from this job instead of finding another one, because if I wasn’t good enough for this, what the hell am I good enough for?

    2. Katie the Fed*

      It’s a job. It’s not a reflection of you as a person. I understand you’re frustrated and angry but try hard not to overpersonalize it – there are surely plenty of jobs you’d be good at – it’s just hard to find them.

    3. Retail Lifer*

      I’ve been job searching for nearly a year. I’ve been trying to branch out and find positions outside of retail, but I want out of my current place of employment so badly that I caved in and applied to two other retail management jobs. I got called into an interview for both, and didn’t make it to the second round for either. I know *exactly* how you feel. I’ve been in retail since I was in high school. I’ve been a manager for 17 years. If I can’t get another job in retail, what the hell can I even expect to get?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Sounds like the company is doing what someone here once called “waiting for Jesus.” They ain’t gonna find him.

        I don’t know if this will help, but I applied to a receptionist job first at my current company and did not get it. It was a good-enough job and I’m actually glad I didn’t, because my current position suits me much better. I really would not have been happy doing the same damn thing I’d already done for years, even in a better company with better pay and benefits.

        My fingers are crossed for both of you!

    4. Ad Astra*

      Please remember that rejection isn’t about being good enough, it’s about being the right person for this job at this time. It sounds like you are objectively a very qualified applicant, and finding a job will just be a combination of time and strategy.

      If it’s at all possible, I highly suggest spending your weekend on something fun or relaxing. Job searching is stressful, and you sound worn out.

      1. INFJ*

        I agree with Ad Astra: it will happen when the fit is right.

        I felt very defeated after a long time of unsuccessful job hunting while employed. I also felt like I would never be good enough (mostly with interviewing) because I’m introverted, not fast on my feet, etc. I actually told myself, “nobody (company) will ever want me,” that’s how discouraged I was. It took a year, but I found a great place (where introversion is cherished, no less!).

        Sometimes it’s not about experience, it’s about fit. Keep going Jennifer and you will find what you’re looking for!

  39. Kali*

    How do you deal with someone who condescends to you? I have a new coworker who makes me feel like I’m being lectured every time I talk business with him. Yesterday, I got a long explanation about how to find the best interns, never mind the fact that I spent five years running a highly successful internship program. All because I made a passing comment about how I was going to start recruiting interns for the coming school year.

    Is there anything I can say in the moment to help him realize what he’s doing and that it’s insulting? I think there might be an element of man-splaining going on.

    1. Diddly*

      Look blank – I know I’ve done it for five years now.
      How did you learn this? Really? It’s just I’ve done it for five years now and find that not to be the case/etc.
      I think general blank face and being disinterested helps. And leaving as soon as possible, or just querying how he got that knowledge and then indicating you know better, and then leaving.
      Or just interrupt – actually I’m familiar with the process I’ve been doing it for five years, it’s just always a tough call etc.

      1. Diddly*

        Ooh and leave out the ‘just’ in my earlier line – was reading an article that says women use ‘just’ as like an apology word.

        2. Kali*

          This is really good and it’s now making me realize how much I use “just” and how most of the time, it’s not needed. Thanks!

      2. Windchime*

        Yeah, the arrogant guy who recently quit tried talking to me like this in a team meeting.
        Mr. Pompous: “Well, Windchime, the way a Left Outer Join works is…..”
        Windchime: [interrupting] “Let’s be clear–I know what a Left Outer Join is and what it is supposed to do.” Stop talking, dead eyed staring contest until he looked away.

        Do. Not. Go. There.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I work with a guy who does this too. He just needs to impart his vast knowledge on everything, and he talks to me like I’m the intern.

      I just stop mentioning things to him at all so he doesn’t have any excuses to lecture me.

    3. fposte*

      I would take it less seriously. If what you want is to protect your time, do that; you’re not likely to be able to coach him out of this behavior, and it’s not your job. “Didn’t actually ask, Bob–gotta go!”

    5. Anonsie*

      I think there might be an element of man-splaining going on.

      Maybe just a smidge. Just a pinch.

      I have a pretty large tool bag just for dealing with condescension because I get it on a pretty solid regular basis. In general I just make it really awkward and try to give off a vibe like “oh man, did you just say that? Oh that was embarrassing, I’ll move on to be polite though…” Let a couple beats drop and go “Oh… Kay… So what I was actually asking about was this.”

      Alternately, I sometimes ignore it completely depending on who it’s coming from. I’ve just kind of wandered away while someone was talking down to me before. Or they start talking and as soon as there’s a tiny little moment where you can interrupt without actually talking over them just gone “KAY. So, what about this totally unrelated thing?” Or if it’s brief then when they’re done I’ll say “Yeah?” and move on immediately.

      No polite interest ever, they’ll interpret it as you actually wanting or needing them to do this.

    6. Mints*

      I don’t know if this is the best tactic…well, it’s the best when I’m losing how much I care. I get slightly condescending right back at them. It used to happen on accident (and still does, sometimes) but I’ll occasionally do it on purpose.

      They start mansplaining, and then I laugh like *oh baby boy you think it’s interesting to me that 5+5=10?* “I know.” and then I don’t participate in the conversation. I’m not having a big coaching session, but I don’t have to deal with it and just cut them off and leave

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      When people do this to me, I just let them talk and listen, as if I were their therapist. I don’t disagree (those are arguments you won’t win, even if you’re right) or agree or sound grateful or resentful or anything. I just listen. Then I go and do whatever I was doing the way I was going to do it. My boss is the only person who has the authority to tell me to do something another way at work.

      1. Wee*

        This was my approach but then it turned into never ending conversation. Never.ending. People love it when I listen like I care. I should have been a therapist. It makes me crazy when it won’t stop and they don’t take the polite hints I throw. So I started the “gotta go to the restroom” tactic to stop it.

    8. catsAreCool*

      Interrupt and say “Thanks, but I have . I think I can handle it.” (I would do this as sweetly as possible, but that’s up to you.)

    9. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

      I think that the term “man-splaining” is unnecessarily antagonistic and at least a little bit sexist, and conveys uncomfortable undercurrents of … no, just kidding.

      I don’t like it when people *cough* “person-splain” to me, either. But – a couple of things:

      1. You say he’s new? A person who is new on the job is probably going to feel the need to ‘contribute’. Additionally, being new, this person lacks knowledge of your past experience and expertise. So it’s not like this guy needs me to apologize for his behavior, but I wonder how much of it might be a consquence of his being “new”?

      2. I don’t think that an antagonistic response (which some people seem to be suggesting) is the best way to go here, at least not at first. When he starts in with this stuff, is there any way you can interrupt him with something matter-of-fact like “Thanks Bob. I guess you didn’t know I ran our intern program for 5 years? I think I’ve got it covered”.

      I’m not you, I don’t really know or understand the full dynamics of the situation. But I’d be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, at least at first. If he continues to be a huge boring pain in the ass, then maybe it’s time to escalate. I’ve had some limited success with looking them straight in the eye, putting my finger in front of my lips like I’m saying “shhh!” and saying “Bob, you’re not helping”. This may or may not work with your personal style.

  40. Malissa*

    To tell or not to tell?
    I work in an office where there are plenty of Spanish speaking people. I am just starting to learn Spanish. On more than one occasion they have talked about me in front of me, in Spanish.
    Part of me would love to not tell them I’m starting to understand more of what they say. Part of me would like to share so I can practice with them.
    I am torn on which way to go.

    1. OfficePrincess*

      Could you just reply to them one day in Spanish? It might clue them in to the fact that 1) you understand and 2) it’s super unprofessional and maybe they should stop.

      2. matcha123*

        Honestly, I don’t think it’s unprofessional. Maybe it’s because I’ve grown up around people who speak many different languages. But, even if I can speak the local language fluently, I really do not need to ensure that my coworkers are able to understand a conversation that has nothing to do with them…

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          They’re talking ABOUT her in front of her. In a language they think she doesn’t understand. It’s… pretty unprofessional.

          1. Anonsie*

            Usually yes, though I could also see scenarios where it wouldn’t be. I grew up in an area where the majority of people were native Spanish-speaking and it wasn’t uncommon for people to flip around just to keep everyone included on the conversation or up to date on what was going on. Whether or not the person you were talking about could understand when you relayed something to someone else wasn’t really taken into account.

            1. Colette*

              But they’re not talking about work or their weekend, they’re talking about her in a way they think she can’t understand. That’s rude.

              1. Anonsie*

                Are they making comments about her during a conversation with her and not letting her in on it in English? Because yeah that’s rude. Are they making negative comments about her? That’s rude even if it wasn’t in Spanish.

                Are they making neutral statements (“Malissa is working on x thing so we can do y”) where she can hear? That’s not. Are they making neutral statements while in conversation with her that are things she knew (the “flipping language to convey information the subject already knows to others” Melissa mentioned below)? Because then that’s fuzzier, it’s not normally considered rude where I’m from but in many contexts it would be.

                1. Colette*

                  If she doesn’t speak the language, she’s still going to understand her name. IMO, it’s rude to talk about someone (even neutrally) if they know you’re talking about them but can’t understand what you’re saying.

            2. Melissa*

              Speaking in your native language in front of people who don’t understand it isn’t rude/unprofessional. Talking about someone in front of them is rude, regardless of what language you’re using. Flipping languages to convey information that the subject already knows to others who don’t speak the subject’s language isn’t the same thing.

              1. Melissa*

                I’m also adding that I’m assuming that the original commenter means talking about her in a negative way, because I’m assuming she wouldn’t need to ask if they were saying neutral or positive things.

                1. Anonsie*

                  Since she didn’t specify I wasn’t going to assume either way, but yeah once what they’re saying is negative it’s obviously not ok anymore.

              2. Ad Astra*

                Exactly. There’s nothing wrong with defaulting to the language you’re most comfortable in, but talking about someone in a foreign language is just as rude as whispering about someone or texting about someone who’s in the room. It’s rude rude rude.

                That said, I’ve heard people talk about me in another language several times before, in different languages from different cultures. Is this universally rude, or are there some places where it might be considered ok? (In all of these cases, the offender spoke fluent English but chose to speak a different language so I wouldn’t understand the discussion.)

          2. matcha123*

            I can’t reply to everyone, but, in general people assume that others are talking I’ll of them in a foreign language. The OP herself says her language skills aren’t all that high.
            For all she knows, they could be saying “OP is supposed to do roses today and after she finishes that she’ll be doing violets. It takes her a while to do the violets, so if you need something, you’d better ask now.”

            If they are ignoring customers or keeping information from her that’s necessary for her to do her job, then it’s certainly rude and unprofessional.

            I ran into something like this at my old job where a coworker assumed I and another coworker were slacking because we talked with each other in English. We were talking about work and things related to work. Sorry, but I’m not going to talk to another native English speaker in a foreign language just to make someone else feel better.

        2. Sunshine Brite*

          I don’t think it’s unprofessional either. I mean, they’re just speaking Spanish. I definitely have seen my coworkers collaborate in Hmong and it’s clear they were just working on our projects.

    2. Career Counselorette*

      Hahaha, welcome to my dilemma. I can actually have a conversation in Spanish but I look like the Swiss Miss girl and I have the most horrible Michael Bloomberg accent (not for want of trying!). I find that when people come into my office asking for Spanish, when I answer them in Spanish they immediately switch to English. The last time I tried to continue using Spanish, my office manager was like, “For the love of God, stop! You’re awful!”

      2. Malissa*

        Lol! I’m a little afraid I’m going to sound just awful as well. I am totally incapable of rolling an R.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Share. Ask them to help you. It can be a lot of fun.

      When I lived overseas, I had German friends who asked me to help practice their Business English. We would meet for breakfast, pick a topic for conversation, and converse. We had dictionaries at each place setting.

      It was even more fun when my friends turned the tables on me after about a year. They informed me that I had taken enough German classes, and it was time to put what I had learned into practice!

    4. matcha123*

      If you’d like to practice your Spanish with them, you could ask to practice outside of work and possibly pay for lessons. As someone living overseas in a country with a lot of people who want to learn English, I’ll just say that when I speak with a coworker in English it’s for a few reasons including: I’d rather use English because it’s faster AND I don’t want other coworkers eavesdropping on my conversation.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      For me the question would be, are they generally nice when they talk about you in Spanish? If they’re nice, then you don’t have a problem. If it’s weird cattiness, then feel free to respond in the middle of a conversation, perhaps coolly saying “That’s rather rude to say.”

    6. Jennifer*

      Are they saying nice or mean things?

      I dunno, I think I’d keep my mouth shut until I was fluent in Spanish. Especially if they are saying bad things.

    7. Dynamic Beige*

      On more than one occasion they have talked about me in front of me, in Spanish.
      What did they say? If it was simple “Malissa wants to know about X” because they are more comfortable conversing in their native tongue, that’s a perfect time to let them know you’re studying or practicing. If it was some sort of insult, that would not be a good time to let them know, IMO.

      Because here’s the thing: eventually it’s going to slip out that you know what they’re saying. Someone is going to catch on that you can follow the conversation, or you’ll say something that someone only said in front of you in Spanish and people will start talking about what you know. Look at it this way, they are speaking in a language they don’t think you know for reasons and when they find out that you have been essentially eavesdropping on them, they will wonder just how long you’ve been spying.

      I say find an innocuous time when you’re all together eating lunch or something and just mention that you have been inspired to learn Spanish based on being at work every day and the news will travel, people will start to self censor more what they say in front of you knowing that you know. If you want people to practice with, bringing it up over lunch would be a great way to practice social conversation.

      1. Malissa*

        One time of all things it was whether or not to include me in a lunch order that the company was paying for and everybody else in the building was getting the benefit of it. Other times it’s been a quick glance in my direction and saying something I know isn’t nice. Thankfully it doesn’t happen often. But you make a nice reasonable point. Just because I work in a circus doesn’t mean I have to act like a clown.

    8. KJR*

      Is this situation reminding anyone of the Seinfeld episode with Elaine in the nail salon?? This is also the “stopping short” episode. I miss that show!

    9. Shannon*

      I was in the same situation once. Some Spanish speaking male coworkers called me something unprintable. I never told because I got a perverse joy out of listening to their gossip. These guys would run around calling themselves the Spanish speaking “cartel,” never realizing that the little white girl took 3 years of Spanish in High School and while I didn’t instantly get what they were saying, I could follow the conversation.

      I considered it an instructional view into what these guys were really like. They’d be nice to my face and speculate about what sexual activities I would engage in. In front of me. I didn’t feel like I could report it because it would be my word against theirs. On my last day, I told them in stilted but perfect Spanish that I could understand every word they were saying. The look on their faces was awesome.

      Anyway, what this long winded wandering down memory lane is getting to is that it’s more instructive to listen than it is to speak.

  41. Diddly*

    I seem to have lost all my motivation to get stuck in and apply for jobs. I’m looking for them but finding less and less, and thinking I need to give up on the dream ‘industry’ there’s too much competition, I’m not in the right city and I can’t afford to be, I also can’t afford to get the required unpaid experience – although I think my other experience transfers…
    I’m just totally not where I saw my future self, and I’m so far away from where I hoped to be I can’t see the possibility that I’ll get anywhere – it all feels a little hopeless.
    Especially as it feels like I’m going backwards. I probably need to go back to temping – I’m bored out of mind not doing anything, and money is always nice, it’s just last time I temped I was bored out of mind temping and it barely got me anywhere.
    Sorry for the whine – any one got some motivation boosters – or dramatic change of fortune stories :) ?
    Figuring how to literally motivate myself to get out of bed when there’s nothing to do is becoming a major struggle – then it just creates a vicious cycle.

    1. Ali*

      I am the same way right now, so hopefully there’s some help out there!

      I want to work in communications, and people just keep suggesting that I freelance or volunteer to get experience. I have no desire to freelance (I have tried to make myself want it, but it just isn’t there!), and I have to pay my student loans. I can get income based repayment but recently found out I’m out of deferment options. So yeah, working for nothing is out of the question.

      I do want to be in the nonprofit sector and have thought about looking at AmeriCorps roles, but I’m afraid the really low pay would only make things worse, even though the experience would be valuable. I’m considering VISTA, though; not direct service.

      1. Sunshine Brite*

        VISTA though, you can’t do any side work and you’re more locked in that other AmeriCorps roles.

      2. Shannon*

        AmeriCorps might give you more deferment options. At the end of the year, you can apply to have 10,000 taken off of your student loans thanks to your service.

    2. zora*

      wow, is it possible I posted this and then got amnesia and forgot? You sound exactly like me! Thanks for posting this, I’ll read through the responses and hopefuly they will help me, too.

      And also just sending some commiseration because it is so hard and I also feel like I’m going backwards.

  42. OfficePrincess*

    Warning: Rant to follow.

    WHY on earth would you send a long rambling email to your boss asking to meet about problems with a coworker and then blow her off when she comes in 3 hours early to meet with you after sending a confirmation email???My team is split across all 3 shifts, so I have to make special plans to see the overnight crew, but try to at least once a week. I came in at stupid o’clock, said good morning, and before I had my computer on she clocked out a few minutes early and left. Like, if the problems are that bad, wouldn’t you want to actually show up to the meeting you scheduled to discuss it?

    I fully believe that at least 95% of what was in the email is legit. I’ve had issues with the other person’s attitude myself (though my boss thinks it’s just because we got off on the wrong foot, she’s wonderful, etc) and have caught her in lies to other supervisors. I’ve had it, but can’t escalate it without my boss’s signing off on it. Having someone threatening to quit because of her though, might be the push I need to be able to start formal disciplinary action, but said person needs to actually show up to talk to me about it. UGH.

    Sometimes this job makes me drink.

    1. Elkay*

      Did you ask her why?

      I had a colleague like this, she sent an email to my boss then refused to discuss it with my boss.

      1. OfficePrincess*

        She doesn’t come back in until tonight, so my options are to either get up super early again tomorrow and make a special trip in or wait until next week.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I could have done that in my immature days. Started the process, then syked myself out that nothing will change and the boss will resent me so I’m going to ignore the boss until they bring it up.
      On a side note- we had an issue at my part-time gig where there was an employee with an attitude problem that wasn’t being addressed by management. After one person put in their notice, the others followed the next day. By Friday, HALF the staff had quit. Attitude issues are a bomb waiting to go off.

      1. OfficePrincess*

        That could be part of it.

        I really want to deal with this (not because I’ll enjoy any part of it, but rather just want the attitude to stop) but I feel like I need examples of the behavior that needs to change when I sit down with the one who is causing the problems. But that requires people to actually bring the problems to me.

      2. Anonsie*

        Agreed with the first bit there. This is totally something I would have done as a youngin

    3. Katie the Fed*

      Shift work is terrible. maybe she forgot about the meeting or was just too exhausted.

    4. KAZ2Y5*

      Can you call her? And as a side note, thank you so much for taking time to meet with your night shift! I work the night shift and at my last job, my manager would never come in early to meet with us or talk to us. Most of our evaluations were done by email because he didn’t want to come in early. Made us feel oh so valuable to the company :-(

  43. Melissa*

    How long is your work commute, and how irritating is it to you? How important is distance from work for you?

    I just got my first full-time job post-grad school (background check finished earlier this week, whoo!) and I’m relocating to a different city, so I’m currently looking for apartments in the new place. The job is located in the suburbs of a large city; I’m looking to also live in the suburbs, so the commute will probably be primarily surface roads (although there are some state roads and interstate highways that go through the ‘burbs in this area). My upper limit is about 20-30 minutes, so really I’m making the choice between about a 5-10 minute commute, a 10-15 minute commute, and a potentially 20-30 minute commute. The two shorter commutes also give me the option of taking a bus to work some days if I’m lazy, whereas the longer one does not.

    The reason I’m even considering it is the 20-30 minute commute locations are bigger with better in-unit amenities (nicer floor plans, upgraded kitchens) for the same price as the shorter commutes. The shortest commute has the smallest apartments, but also the most walkable nearby amenities.

    1. T3k*

      It really depends on how valuable that commute time is for you.

      Currently, I have a minimum of a 35 min. commute that I’m pretty much stuck with until I can find a better paying job, as I’m paid so little, I can’t afford to even rent a place with someone else that’s closer. Personally, I’d love to have a 5-10 min. commute (my first internship was 7 min. away and it was awesome as I could get up 30. mins before I had to be at work instead of an hour like I am currently). Of course, if your job has a flexible schedule, commute time may not matter as much because you could then plan around rush hours. Also, you have to consider all that wear and tear on your car with a 30 minute commute on street roads (thankfully most of my commute is highway) and plan accordingly in the cost of upkeep there.

    2. hermit crab*

      I would probably choose the short commute/small apartment/walkable neighborhood option, if I were in your situation. (Though I sometimes I feel like my current 10-minute-walk commute doesn’t give me enough time to mentally disengage from work on my way home, and I’m actually looking forward to our upcoming office move when my commute will be a little longer! That might be another consideration for you to keep in mind.)

    3. NacSacJack*

      IMHO, take the apt in the 10-15 minute commute. When I bought my house I didn’t know I lived on 3 bus lines all of which can take me to work. It has been a lifesaver. Some things are walkable (defn bikable). The best about my location: the garage I take my car to or have it towed to is on a busline to and from work. And I live far enough away from work that if I dont want to see my building I don’t have to.

    4. Ad Astra*

      My commute is about 35-45 minutes from a rural-ish exurb to the downtown area of a mid-sized city. It’s not terrible, but the COL here is low and there is plenty of affordable housing available in the city limits, so most of my coworkers’ commutes are 25 minutes or less. We’re moving soon, thank goodness.

      If I were in your shoes, I’d take the nicer housing and deal with the 20-30 minute commute, because 20-30 minutes is still quite reasonable imo. But that’s me. I think all three options sound fine.

      Of the three housing options, is there one in a neighborhood you like better? Or is there one in a neighborhood you like considerably less? See what you can learn about the parking, restaurants, shopping, noise, traffic, etc., in each area to help inform your decision.

      1. Melissa*

        I’m supposed to be taking a trip to the city to see the apartments in person and walk around the neighborhoods a little bit more. The one with the mid-length commute but the smallest apartments has the best neighborhood – it’s in the downtown of a small city, with lots of shopping and parks and restaurants that I can easily walk to. I think traffic will be higher there, but not bad. I just used Google Earth to look at the apartment that’s 20-30 minutes away and it’s on a pretty deserted road that looks like it will be super dark at night. I live in a neighborhood like that now in a small college town, and it does sometimes irritate me that there’s nowhere to walk to if I don’t feel like cooking or if I need to nip out to get eggs and milk really quickly – and that’s with living only a 5-minute drive from my grocery store, and 10 minutes to the dog park. I know parking is generally bad in the downtown area, but all of the buildings I’m looking at have parking for residents.

        1. Ad Astra*

          That’s good information. I think once you see all three places, you’ll have a pretty easy time narrowing it down. In general, though, I would prioritize living near stuff (restaurants, drug stores, a decent liquor store if you like fancy wine or craft beer or whatever, etc) over living near work.

          1. Ad Astra*

            Ooh, and it’s also possible that visiting the apartments in person will reveal something unacceptable (or at least not preferable) about one of the apartments. A weird smell, maybe an extremely unsavory neighbor, lots of noise from renovations, who knows.

    5. I'm a Little Teapot*

      *sigh* I just accepted a job where the commute will probably be an hour and a half each way by bus, so…they all sound good to me. But – the walkable nearby amenities are nice, and being close to work and everything else would make your life much more convenient and give you lots of extra free time. I’d take the short commute/small apartment, but I value free time much more than I value a nice apartment (any look at the tiny pigsty I live in would make this obvious) – so it’s really a question of what you value most.

    6. Christy*

      Choose the walkable nearby amenities. It’s worth a smaller apartment.

      And my commute is 50 minutes on an ideal day, so I think all of your options sound ridiculously short. (I take public transit.)

      1. Melissa*

        Yes, I feel like I’m being obnoxiously picky! But I’ve never had the chance to be even a little choosy before.

        I’m leaning towards walkable nearby amenities, too.

    7. Retail Lifer*

      Commute time is important. I moved to the other side of town to my dream apartment, but that doubled my commute time. I already hated my job, and the commute is now slowly killing me.

      1. Retail Lifer*

        But I work in the suburbs and don’t ever want to live there, particularly in the one I work in.

      2. Ezri*

        I moved here for a job and intentionally chose a place less than a mile from my office, even though it was on the high end of my budget. Less than a year later, they moved my team to a new office fifteen miles away. I don’t have a horrible commute in comparison to most of my coworkers, but driving by the old building three minutes away from my house kills my soul a little bit.

    8. Gene*

      13 miles and about 20-25 minutes. I drive alone, opposite normal commute flow. No transit possible without walking 4 miles.

    9. RG*

      Honestly, I think part of it depends on your city. I live in Houston – traffic is bad everywhere, so even a commute of just surface roads can be horrible and much longer than you would expect.

      1. Melissa*

        It’s in Seattle, and I don’t know too much about it. People claim that traffic is bad, but I’m moving from New York so…lol. I got stuck in rush hour traffic coming from the airport and it didn’t seem that bad to me. Based on Googling transit times it seems like traffic can be pretty bad on the surface roads in the morning, and some of the locations do involve driving on a state road that’s like a highway and that gets crowded too.

    10. rek*

      Congratulations on the new job!
      I have never had a commute of less than 30 minutes, so even your worst-case scenario sounds good to me! I live in the suburbs; for most of my work life I commuted 45-50 minutes (one way) to another suburban location. My worst commute was 2+ hours via public transport to a city. I loathed every second of that commute. My current commute is, again, 45-50 minutes by car. My choice has always been for the (relatively) longer commute / better living amenities / lower cost combo, although you have to figure the cost of commuting in any bottom line analysis. (Also, there’s definitely something to be said for being able to walk to things close to where you live.)
      Good luck!

    11. FJ*

      I think you can get used to 20-30 minutes. I don’t mind mine, but I also don’t mind driving. It used to be 25 minutes standard, now in a different place it is 35 minutes standard, or the occasional hour with weather/traffic. I know some people do an hour plus every day. I think it’s amazing what you can get used to.

      If it were me – If it’s all under 30 minutes… choose based on the neighborhood and other things.

      1. FJ*

        Oh! Test out the commute if you can, at a real commuting time. I did that when interviewing or when looking for housing. Depending on the area, you might also be able to find a state DOT website with long-term traffic reports or something.

    12. Ashley K.*

      I value a short commute a lot.

      My first job, I moved so that I was a 10 minute walk from the office instead of 45 minutes by bus.
      My second job, I moved so that I was a 10 minute drive from the office instead of a 90+ minute drive.
      My current job, I moved somewhere cheaper and bought a motorcycle (I’m in CA, I can lane split through traffic) so that my commute was <20 minutes.

      I went so far as to buy a motorcycle, yep. ;)

      My boyfriend, on the other hand, has a death wish and has just, for the second time, taken on a job with a 60-90+ minute commute. He listens to a lot of audiobooks.

    13. The IT Manager*

      For me personally anything up to a 30 minute commute is no biggie. I grew up in the country where my small town had nothing and we had to drive 15-20 minutes for restaurants, shopping, etc. I do keep shortening my commute when I move, and I am very fond of walkability.

      For me it’s not the time, but the traffic. How stop and go would the longer commute be? If it’s easy you can just cruise along listening to a podcast or audiobook. If it’s stop and go and stressful, that’s an entirely different story.

      1. Elysian*

        In my area, anything less than an hour is considered “not bad,” but of course this is all geographically relative. Currently I walk about 7 minutes, and honestly I think it is too short. I feel like I live too close to my workplace and I pass it all the time when I’m out doing “fun” things, and it just gets me thinking about work. It’s too close for me.
        On the other hand, for three months I have an hour and a half commute each way, and it was unbearable. For three years my daily commute was about 45 – 1 hour 15 minutes, and while that was on the longer side, I got used to it. I think 20 mins – 30 mins would be perfect for me. I also think though that it depends on driving v public transit. I would rather be on a train for 35 minutes than drive 20 minutes, so that would be part of my calculus, too.

        1. Melissa*

          I know what you mean! When I was in graduate school I used to live 4 blocks away from the building where I worked and attended classes, and that was just too close. I felt like I didn’t have any time for my brain to switch over. (I mean, not that there was anything to switch TO in a doctoral program, lol.) I feel like a 5-minute driving commute is fine, but I don’t want to be able to walk to work, as weird as that sounds.

          I did a summer internship where I had a two-hour commute each way. It was all public transit and I had mixed feelings about it. I think if I had to do it longer than 3 months I would’ve hated it.

      2. Melissa*

        Based on the location, it looks like it would mostly be cruising, perhaps with a few places of medium-speed traffic. I was wrong about the surface roads, though – the 20-30 minute commute would be at least partially on an interstate highway (there’s a couple different ways to get there.

    14. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’ve seen some of your other posts about the job and relocation (congrats, by the way!), so I have to tailor this to you a bit. :) I also moved from NYC to a place where I needed a car, though my new city isn’t a “major” one, and the adjustment is HUGE. Something to take into consideration in addition to your commute. (If I’m mixing up my peoples and you don’t live in NYC, ignore alllll the rest of this.)

      Our neighborhood is not downtown, but close to it, and we moved here for a couple of reasons: with only one car, it’s an easy walk to campus for my boyfriend (we moved so he could pursue a PhD), and we have a lot of stuff in walking distance. This was important to us, because I really did not want to go from no car at all to relying solely on the car. We have several nice restaurants to walk to if I want a cocktail with my dinner, there are interesting spots to take the dog on our walks, etc.

      When we first moved, I worked from home, so commute wasn’t a factor. Then I got a job about a 12-minute drive away, which is perfect. I take one major road and the rest are surface roads, with very little traffic. 20-30 minutes would be ok, but that’s pushing it. It was also tough for me to get used to the driving commute again after 10 years of taking the subway and bus– there’s no zoning out when you drive! So consider that too.

      If you’re moving to a new city alone, lots of walkable amenities will also help you connect with people– you won’t fall back on the, “Eh, I just don’t feel like driving today…” Admittedly, this is me projecting. :)

      1. Melissa*

        Haha, thanks! You are not mixing up your people; I am in a confusing situation. I currently split my time between NYC and a small college town about 4 hours away – I’m a postdoc, but my husband and my friends and my network are all in NYC and I lived there for 6 years before moving here. So at my postdoc, I drive to work most days (about a 10-minute drive) and take the bus some days (about 25 minutes).

        So yes, part of my calculus is because I’m coming from being in NYC for pretty much all of my adult life and being used to not relying on a car to do everything. I like driving short distances, and I drive 4 hours back and forth to New York a couple times a month, but the less I have to drive around to do every day errands the better. You’re also right about wanting to connect; I’m moving alone (husband is staying behind to finish his degree for 9 months) and I’m really sociable and want to meet people.

        Hmm, writing this out to people is making me see that a walkable neighborhood is more important to me than I thought. This has been super helpful! This is why I love AAM.

        1. Christy*

          OMG totally move to the walkable neighborhood. Plus it’s just you? It’s a no-brainer to me at this point.

    15. Elizabeth West*

      About twenty minutes, but it’s an annoying twenty minutes. I live near an industrial area, so to get to the highway, I have to dodge FedEx trucks, double-trailer trucks, truck driver training trucks, utility vehicles, older people who just HAVE to go to Walmart at eight in the morning, and people who whip out in front of me and then go two miles and hour and I can’t get around them because the person trying to pass both of us cruises right beside them and won’t speed up. Once I make it to the highway, it’s like Dodge-em cars. If you put your signal on, people speed up so you can’t change lanes because ZOMG they might get there one second later!

      I’ve taken to getting here later just to avoid the trucks. If I leave earlier, it takes even longer because traffic to and from the industrial parks is nuts. On Fridays, it’s even worse. My blood pressure is pretty good thanks to more regular exercise, but if you took it right after I get off the highway, I’m sure it would blow the sphygmomanometer.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I’m trying to be mindful and positive–“At least it’s not raining,” “At least I have music,” “At least my boss hasn’t said anything about me coming in at 8:30” (though I have my eval next week so we’ll see).

          Drivers here are rude AF. I’ve had people let me across five lanes to reach an exit in ST. LOUIS, but here, the second they see your signal, it’s like a scene from Mad Max.*

          *which is freaking awesome, btw

    16. Lily in NYC*

      30 minutes or less is what I would consider a gloriously short commute. I honestly don’t think 15 minutes should be the deciding factor when considering jobs when the totals are so short.

    17. Anonsie*

      I’m ok with a commute up to 30-40 minutes but longer than that and it starts to cut into my quality of life pretty significantly.

      The thing to consider with the commute in a new place is also the “commute” to things you want to get to on your off time. Convenience in location of pharmacies, grocery stores, places to get dinner, etc. are also important.

    18. Mints*

      A question: Have you checked out google maps with traffic time during rush hour?

      For me, 20-30 minutes is not bad at all, but I really hate driving in bumper to bumper traffic. I would choose somewhere farther away with no traffic, over closer in heavy traffic (with the times being the same). I’d pick the nicer apartment. But also, I’d pick the better neighborhood (living next door to a coffee shop or sandwich shop is seriously the best). Time for audiobooks!

      Also congrats!

      1. Melissa*

        Yep, I’m basing the commute time on how long it takes with traffic (according to Google). The commute out from the far suburban location would take around 30 minutes max with traffic. The way seems to be mixed blue and yellow – so some cruising areas and some areas with medium-speed traffic but not gridlock. The two closer places are more trafficky, particularly the most walkable one because it’s coming from the same direction as the major nearby city.

    19. Sarrow*

      My commute is 20-30 minutes depending on traffic. I carpool with my husband and drop him off and then go to my work. The cost of living where we live is a lot cheaper than the city where we work. The commute itself is not terrible – basically a straight shot on the highway. Traffic gets backed up once we get into the work city, because the highway connects to the outerbelt. I’ve been doing this for 15 years and it’s manageable. I certainly wouldn’t mind being closer to work, but we would have to move to a smaller house and pay more, so for us it’s not worth it.

      In your situation, I like the idea of the shorter commute with the option of taking the bus. Is weather a factor? If you can have a shorter commute for winter, that would be a huge plus.

      1. Melissa*

        Weather’s not really a factor – average daily temps in winter are in the mid-40s F range in this city, and it rarely snows. Also, my future coworkers tell me that if there’s a hint of a snowflake everyone works from home, lol. (I thought about that too because I currently live in a place where we had permafrost on the ground for 3 months; the bus route was a savior during the winter!)

        1. Meadowsweet*

          as a west-coaster: don’t underestimate the rain :)
          do any of the potential living places have underground parking? because it’s lovely to not be driving wet :)

          1. Honeybee*

            Yes, one of my top choices has underground parking, and I think most of the other ones have covered parking. People in the PNW tried to stress to me that the rain was very light and drizzly, but now I’m skeptical lol.

    20. GOG11*

      My commute is very short (around 5 minutes). I can walk or drive to work. It’s one of the biggest perks of my job, but I’m not exactly in love with my job. Whenever I’ve thought about applying to other companies that aren’t in the same city/nearby, the change in commute time is one of the bigger factors that has dissuaded me. As T3k, I really think it depends on how valuable that time is. For me, I like to have as much time away from my job as I can get because I have to recharge from it and having a commute that ate significant amounts of that time away would be really tough.

    21. Meg*

      My (lack of a) commute is SO important to me. In general, I think most people underestimate how much your commute can decrease your quality of life. Time is the most valuable thing we have, plus a long commute can be stressful! (Especially if you’re in a car.)

      When my husband and I bought our house, our #1 priority was that it was within walking distance to our workplaces. I love love love my 20-minute walk. And regardless of how long your commute is, I highly recommend podcasts. :) Panoply has a wide variety of choices, and the vast majority of them are great.

    22. Sunday*

      I vote for walkability. It’s your first year there, and you’ll have plenty of time to check out the area and decide if there’s somewhere else you’d prefer later. Especially as you’re in a city now. Congratulations!

    23. Sara*

      For the past year, I’ve commuted to work 60-90 minutes each way on public transit (streetcar/subway/bus). This is the longest commute I’ve ever had, and it is the #2 reason why I’m searching for a new position. (The #1 reason is that I now have a key professional certification in my field and am eligible to advance to the next level of responsibility – unfortunately, my current employer doesn’t have any openings at that level.) Before this, my longest commute was about 25 minutes driving (highway). I think a 20-30 minute commute would be ideal, but I’m willing to consider traveling up to 45 minutes for the right opportunity.

    24. Tau*

      I’d absolutely go for the shortest commute – and, in fact, recently did! I ended up with a tiny studio place where getting all my stuff in there required great creativity (and I still have stuff like mop/broom/bucket standing in front of the washing machine and a towel rack standing in the hallway doubling as a shoe rack because there is just no SPACE). However, I am *right* in the middle of town, about two minutes’ walk away from two different grocery stores and surrounded by shops, pubs and restaurants, and all of ten minutes’ walk/two minutes’ cycle from work. It’s FANTASTIC and I’m so happy I went for this over the larger places further out.

      Something of particular note: this is also my first full-time job post-grad school, and I seriously underestimated how draining a full-time work week is and how your time just vanishes. As a result, I think I seriously underestimated how much difference the commute would make – the other places I was looking at would’ve been maybe twenty minutes, maybe half an hour away by cycle or train, and I didn’t think it would be that much worse. But it’s just really amazing to be able to leave work and be home ten minutes later and it opens up my evening so much more than otherwise. I might even be able to head home for lunch some days!

      Of course, things that were true for me that might not be true for you: one, in some ways I was intentionally looking for a smaller place – my previous flat was pretty big and I honestly hated it, I could not keep it tidy for love or money, I felt lonely all the time and I was frozen during the winter because it was so difficult to keep warm. Two, I have a disability and some health issues that mean not having to travel far for stuff is more important than it might be otherwise.

      And one last thing…

      The two shorter commutes also give me the option of taking a bus to work some days if I’m lazy, whereas the longer one does not.

      I think it’s always, always good to have back-up options in case something should go wrong, so I’d definitely consider that a point against the larger route. This way, if your car breaks down one day you can still get to work pretty easily.

    25. Anonymous Educator*

      Like some other folks commenting here, I’ve also never had less than a 30-minute commute, so all your options sound good to me. In fact, I currently have a 45-minute commute (sometimes up to an hour, depending on the buses), and it’s a delight. I’d love a shorter commute, but this doesn’t negatively impact my lifestyle. In the past, I’ve had commutes up to 2 hours each way. those are bad, and I now avoid them like the plague.

    26. Kirsten*

      my commute is 35-40 minutes but luckily my husband works in the same office building as me so we commute together almost every day. It makes the ride feel faster and I can convince him to buy me coffee some mornings :)

    27. Windchime*

      Between 15-20 minutes on the way in to work and probably closer to 30 minutes on the way home since there is a bottle-neck to get onto the exit that I take to get home. It’s not too bad at all; it gives me time to listen to a couple of songs or to finish my podcast. It would take over an hour if I took public transportation so I don’t bother; I just drive it.

    28. INFJ*

      Options are good. I would go with the closer option that you can use public transportation.

      I take the train in to work and love it. I can read AAM on my way in and don’t have to deal with road stress!

  44. Amber Rose*

    Our accountant/HR person is hard of hearing. I do the invoicing and accounts receivables so I often have to discuss things with her. My voice is super soft. I’ve been working on that because even the excellent of hearing sometimes can’t hear me, but it’s super hard due to me spending so many years not talking much at all. My success is variable.

    Anyways, aside from yelling, is there anything I can do that would make it easier for our accountant and I to communicate? Email isn’t really feasible. I’ve been trying to enunciate more but I also don’t want to sound like a jerk. You know, the kind who talks slowly and sounds condescending as hell.

    1. ACA*

      If you’re not doing this already, then try to look directly at her when you’re speaking – it makes lipreading easier, and also means that the sound is projected forward, rather than down at the desk/to the side/etc.

    2. Gene*

      It might be worth it to find a voice coach/therapist and explain the problem. Likely you’ll work more on projection more than sheer volume.

      As ACA said, make sure you are looking directly at her, as someone with moderate hearing loss, that really helps.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        If you are having people mention it’s hard to hear you overall, then yes a voice coach would help you. Or joining something like Toastmasters were you would be forced to speak to a group and get pointers.

        My grandfather was very hard of hearing but refused to wear hearing aids. For the love of all that is holy people if you are losing your hearing for whatever reason, please, please, please look for some kind of hearing aid that works for you. I spent my life not really speaking with him because the effort of raising my voice/projecting it so he could hear me was so. much. work. The day he told me he had gotten hearing aids because he had had a neighbour stop by to talk to him and he hadn’t heard a word was like a slap in the face. No one likes to get old and lose their various faculties, getting reading glasses this year has been Not Fun, but you can’t expect the world to conform to you.

        Having said all that, Amber Rose, I would suggest you speak with the accountant — yell if you have to — and ask them what form of communication they would prefer. Let them see and fully understand the strain it puts you under to talk to them. I imagine that some of the things you have to discuss might be sensitive and so yelling isn’t a good option going forward. But maybe this accountant doesn’t have hearing aids, or hasn’t known how bad it’s gotten because other people have been accommodating them. I worked with someone once who had a tumour in their ear. They hadn’t really noticed that their hearing was going, just that it was hard to hear on the one side so they just switched the phone from one side to another and did other things to compensate. By the time he decided to get a test, it was bad and he had to have an operation, completely lost the hearing on that side.

    3. TNTT*

      As a fellow hard-of-hearing individual, please DO NOT try to over-enunciate words. This makes lip reading harder! Definitely (as ACA suggested) turn your head towards me so I can see your mouth when you’re talking. Hands down/away from mouth. And be patient … I’m trying!

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Yes – speak normally and make sure you are facing the person. (When I was a kid, my mom was a secretary for a woman who was deaf. We learned lot about how to speak to the deaf and hard of hearing.) Also, make sure you have her attention when you start speaking. If she uses a hearing aid, she might turn it down when she wants to concentrate (in my first job, I knew a woman who did this).

        If she uses ASL, it is not necessary but a nice gesture to learn to sign a few basic phrases.

        1. GOG11*

          “Also, make sure you have her attention when you start speaking.” This.

          I was tested for hearing problems because I was having difficulty hearing people and it turned out they just needed to get my attention first (thanks, ADHD). I can’t follow what people are saying if I don’t know they’re talking to me, and I’m not even hard of hearing. People getting my attention at the start of the conversation makes a HUGE difference.

    4. AVP*

      My accountant is also going deaf. I know you said this isn’t really feasible, but I do try to have as many email conversations with her as possible as those go much more smoothly. In-person conversations are okay as long as we’re facing each other directly, so I do as many of those as I can. Phone conversations are terribly awkward for her, so I don’t schedule them and when my boss suggests one, I remind him of how awful they can be and find a way to have it in person instead.

      One thing that helps is that she knows she’s doesn’t hear well and isn’t awkward about it at all, so I don’t have to tiptoe around it or worry that I’m making her sensitive. She wants to find a way to work it out as mutes I do.

    5. OfficePrincess*

      In addition to volume/projecting, try making your voice deeper. When I worked with an elderly population, part of the training was about what frequencies of hearing start to go first, and high pitches can be harder to hear than lower ones. But definitely speak at a relatively normal pace. When you speak deliberately slowly, it makes it harder to parse out words as well as lipread.

      1. A Definite Beta Guy*

        Just responding to +1 this. I have high frequency hearing loss and struggle greatly with people who talk at a high pitch. Good ol’ Homo Sapiens do tend to lose our high frequency hearing first (my father’s has gone down the tube).

    6. Anonsie*

      You don’t need to talk slowly, you just need to be loud enough to be heard. As others have said, don’t change the way you’re speaking, it makes you harder to understand. You just need more volume and all of it directed where she can pick it up. You need to:

      –Face her when speaking, the whole time. When you’re talking you’re essentially directing all the words at her and not around the room.
      –Make sure she can see your face as much as possible, because even if she doesn’t read lips it gives clues that help us interpret sounds.
      –You may even ask her if one side is better than the other and, if so, stick to it.
      –Don’t tease her about it because it’s super not nice and odds are good she’s heard any joke you have about five million times already*.

      A lot of people’s hearing is different on either side and it presents a lot of problems you might not be aware of, like telling where a sound is coming from or interpreting tone when you can’t see a person’s face. For me, if you were to see me twisting around (my head or upper body or whatever) there’s a good chance I can’t actually hear you or can’t tell where you are, so the most productive thing to do is to stop talking and just come stand directly next to me.

      *”I’m kind of hard of hearing, you have to speak up a little.” “What?” har har har hilaaarious, I’ve never heard THAT one before, tee-freakin’-hee.

    7. Ms. FS*

      My son is deaf and uses hearing aids and a cochlear implant, so I deal with this often. I second making sure they can see you when you speak, asking for understanding, enunciating clearly, especially with naturally “soft” sounds like f, s, t, z. Put things in writing.

      Yelling actually doesn’t help much at all because it distorts the sound to a person that is hard of hearing. So I’d actually avoid that altogether. Speaking loudly and asking if she can hear me is a good step though.

      And you didn’t mention that this is a problem but I’m sensitive to this as a mother of a deaf child – please don’t think the person is ignoring you, or not listening. I know my child comes off as rude or insolent sometimes and its just because he doesn’t hear the person talking to him at first.

    9. Shannon*

      Ask the HR person for advice. “I know my voice is soft. What can I do to better communicate with you?”

  45. matcha123*

    I don’t know if it’s OK to have a bit of a rant…But…

    I find it so annoying that people where I am want to know what my current salary is so they can tell me that I basically don’t deserve a larger salary. My salary is low because that’s what the place can afford, not because they would rather pay me less. However, it’s low because the work I do is severely undervalued.

    To add on, in this country, men will get additional income from their employers if they are married and their wives make less than 10k a year, but nothing like that for women. Companies will give every excuse why I’m not worth a higher salary but will turn around and give a man a higher salary because “he has a family.” I can accept that a company might not find my skillset matches their needs or they think that what I can do doesn’t warrant a higher salary. But, I can’t accept them basing salary on whether or not someone has a stay-at-home-wife and a kid.
    If I didn’t have to worry about money, I’d say eff this all and do my own thing.

  46. Gingerbread*

    I recently came here to vent about being overworked and underpaid. Six months after I started at my current job, I had to take on the responsibilities of an event planner and ecommerce manager, which requires me to work 50-60 hours a week to get the job(s) done. My manager agreed to talk about giving me a raise in the coming weeks, but I have no idea what to ask for. My current salary is $30k, so what’s a reasonable number to ask for? Is it okay to ask my manager what she thinks is fair before naming the salary that I want? This is my first job out of college so I’m new to all of this.

    1. fposte*

      Research, research, research. Don’t ask your manager what she thinks is fair–you need to be able to have your own number suggestion and advocate for yourself. Look at salary ranges for event planners and ecommerce managers in your city/region; you’d be starting at the low end, because you don’t have much experience, but that’s what you’d be asking for and that’s how you’d be making your case. “I see event planners in Hometown make from $45-$70k; since I’m just starting, I think the lower end would be appropriate, so I’d ask for $45k.”

    2. ginger ale for all*

      Go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and type in your job title in the search box. It will take you to a page that has stats about your job, including average salaries. You can type in job titles that you think are more in line with what you actually do to see how the job is perceived across America.

    3. Observer*

      Well, what is your official hourly salary? If you are non-exempt, then just make sure you are being paid overtime. If not, then ask for a salary actually reflects the number of hours you work.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I remember you!

      Also, I remember that you are in Los Angeles, which made me say that your current salary was pretty much intern level.

      Lookit, the job description you gave before is 50 to 60k in Los Angeles, even at young employee level. You are so far underpaid that trying to get to market level isn’t going to happen.

      I’d ask for 40k to begin to close the gap. And remember, valuable experience, just keep packing in the valuable experience and job hunt as soon as you have enough of it under our belt.

  47. SevenSixOne*

    Does anyone else feel a little grossed out when they see a job posting that says something like “women and minorities encouraged to apply”?

    It’s a HUGE red flag for me, since even the most generous explanation is that the role or company has a reputation for being a boys’ club and/or unwelcoming to anyone who’s different… and I wouldn’t want to work in a place like that!

    Am I wrong– is there some other, less awful reason companies say this?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      It’s probably an affirmative action policy – they want to make sure they have a large, diverse pool of candidates to choose from.

      With defense contractors, it’s a big thing to have a diverse workforce. If you’re owned by a woman/minority/veteran/disabled veteran, even better.

    2. Victoriana*

      I’d see it simply as a sign that they are aware they have a gender and/or race imbalance and are attempting to address the issue. Whether it’s a red flag or not would require much more info. I’d certainly look into that more carefully, but I wouldn’t avoid applying because of it.

      I think the companies that have the imbalance but aren’t aware of it or addressing it are a much bigger red flag!

    4. Jenna Maroney*

      I’d rather apply there than someplace that was 99% white men and didn’t think twice about it.

    5. Lily in NYC*

      It shouldn’t be a red flag! I have never worked anywhere that didn’t have that as standard language on all of their job postings.

    6. Anie*

      I had someone refer me to a job and tacked on that they were specifically looking for a lesbian because they “already had a black person, Hispanic person, and gay man.”

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Well, then they’ll have the complete set! More valuable if you want to trade the whole collection.

        This is one of those “what is wrong with people” things…

      3. Creag an Tuire*

        “Together you will be a wonderfully diverse and multi-ethnic team, perhaps saving the environment, or whatever.”

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          Oh, wait, maybe they’re going for the band of misfits from 1940s war movies?

    7. CMT*

      Hmm, the places I’ve seen that posted are generally pretty progressive places anyway, where I’d assume they have a lot of women and minorities. I don’t think it’s a red flag at all; in fact kind of the opposite to me.

    8. Kai*

      As others have said, this is pretty common and not a red flag. Although it does make my nostrils flare when a posting says “females” are encouraged to apply, rather than “women.”

    9. Melissa*

      Being a woman and a minority, I’m usually not. Honestly, I’d say that 80-90% of the job ads I’ve seen have had that invitation in it. I work in a field (and am transitioning to a different one) where women and minorities are severely underrepresented, so for some employers it’s an indication that they are actually making a good-faith effort to diversify their workplace. For most employers it’s just standard boilerplate their HR made them use and it means nothing. Yes, it often is code for “we don’t have much/any diversity!” but that doesn’t mean a place is going to be unwelcoming or a boys’ club.

    10. Student*

      It doesn’t mean anything. Pay more attention to how the people you interview with treat you and less to what the HR rep slapped on to the bottom of every single post.

      Some places like this have low minority or women populations for a very good reason, and you want to avoid those. Others are reasonable places to work, but the pipeline into that field has serious problems so they never have diverse applicants.

      I’m in physics. The physics talent pipeline for women is terrible. The first time I was told I shouldn’t do something that would lead toward a physics degree was in 2nd grade (girls don’t like math! girls are worse than boys at math! stop being so good at math so you don’t intimidate the other kids, because it’s not normal!). The US education system, as I experienced it, funnels women away from math and hard sciences, from grade school all the way up to grad school.

      If you survive that, then the jobs at the end are mixed. Some have very few women and are also terrible old boys’ clubs. Some have very few women but are wonderful places to work. At both places, women applicants are few and far between. No place I’ve every heard of had enough technical, physics women to be anywhere near on parity. They often try to even out the overall company or department stats by hiring loads of excess women in non-technical fields; there will be more women business managers than normal or parity, for example (and all the admin assistants and low end positions will be “pink collar”).

      Often, I’m the only “technical woman in the room” for all of my colleagues. I’ve been to really terrible places. I’ve been to kind of medium-awful places, the ones you tolerate but never feel like you will fit in. I’ve been in great places where I feel like just any other team member.

      1. Tau*

        I’ve gone from maths to software so I hear you on that (although I’ve always lucked out so far – fingers crossed that that keeps up). My main aim is to never be the *only* tech person who isn’t a guy, because that’s just really uncomfortable and something of a red flag – sorry, great companies who’ve just had bad luck with applicants.

        Honestly, I wish the “all applicants are welcome, we do not discriminate, hi look at our diversity policy!” stuff meant something… I’m of a disadvantaged identity in a few different ways and trying to find a welcoming workplace seems a bit like Russian roulette. So far at the new place I’ve been trying to keep an ear out to figure out how open I should be about not being straight, and I was very discomfited by the new hire paperwork that asked me whether or not I considered myself disabled and “if yes, please specify”. The reason they gave is wanting to figure out accommodations – excuse me, I’m the one who decides whether or not I want/need you to do that, and the fact that you appear to be ignorant of the idea that someone might not want to disclose a disability to the point of forcing me to lie on paper my first day in the office is rather worrying. It’d be nice if there was a better way of figuring out how good a company is on these fronts before the fact. :/

  48. MayDay*

    So, I am supposed to have an onsite interview a few states away from me, yay. However, it’s been exactly a week since the hiring manager/boss has told me that their admin would call me to set everything up (flights, etc.). I’m guessing I should email sometime next week to see when to schedule since we talked about probably scheduling the interview at the end of the month.

    However! More importantly, he asked me to do a 30 min or so presentation on my research (I am in scientific R&D, at my company for about 6 years). But, I just realized most of what I do is company confidential. Any advice on what I can do? I am going to look at product release pamphlets and see what I can do, but I feel stuck!

    1. Chocolate Teapot*

      Can you use Chocolate Teapots?

      Not literally, but as a way of maintaining confidentiality by not naming names.

      1. MayDay*

        Hmm, that is what my one coworker suggested. But I am not sure, some of what I do is specialized :(.

    2. Ashley K.*

      They should know full well that your work is confidential. I suggest asking them what they’re hoping to see from your presentation to clarify how they want you to structure it.

      I work in a field with NDAs during interviews and they are always explicit about company secrets: we won’t ask for yours, we won’t give you ours. If something is inadvertently revealed, you agree not to use it.

      1. MayDay*

        Hmm good point! I will ask them when I follow up about the trip.

        They seem to be pretty rational, so hopefully they won’t have a problem with it.

      2. Elysian*

        Yeah, if you’re confused I would reach out to them and see if they have a solution or a “what people normally do.” In my field (law) employers frequently require writing samples, but everything I do is either confidential or not solely my own work. It’s pretty much accepted that if they ask for a writing sample they’re going to get something old (cause I can’t ask my current boss for permission to use a writing sample to interview for new jobs…), something I did in law school (generally don’t need to ask for those), or something I literally just made up that I never used at work for the sake of having it as a writing sample. I think people kind of expect that in my field, so I bet your field has norms like that, too.

    3. HM in Atlanta*

      Can your presentation be about how you approached your research and how you know your approach paid off? You wouldn’t have to use specifics that were confidential, you could keep everything high level, but that would let them know your critical thinking process that you would apply to their work.

      1. MayDay*

        There is one project I could apply this too! Thanks – will have to think more about structuring my presentation!

    4. anonanonanonanon*

      i would reach out to them and ask about the schedule and flight information.

      With regards to your presentation, in my experience in R&D, there are a couple of ways to go about it. 1) be upfront with the hiring manager and say, hey everything i work on is confidential. Can i give a presentation on this topic (maybe research you did in graduate school)? 2) anonymize whatever you can. I gave a presentation recently on some work calling the molecule “Drug A. i could do this because it was about the process of work i did with that as an example. 3) have you been on any publications or presentations recently? those can be adapted.
      If you are interviewing in the same industry, they will expect this to happen. they aren’t looking for company secrets, just whether you can give a presentation and answer their questions.
      Hope this helps!

      1. MayDay*

        It does help! Actually, I was thinking of doing a presentation on my old grad school work, but I wasn’t sure since it’s a bit different (more like making drug a vs. analyzing drug a).

        I will definitely ask them though, when I ask for the schedule.

        Thanks (and to everyone) for the great advice!

    5. K*

      Do you have any published research? That’s what I did – presented on research that was published in a journal and therefore no longer confidential.

    6. Melissa*

      I just recently did an interview for which I had to do a presentation on my research, and I used my work from graduate school (a series of connected projects, related to my dissertation). They explicitly asked us not to present any proprietary information. My research was completely unrelated to the work I’d be doing in the job, but the approach and methods were useful, and they said that they just wanted to see how I thought about research.

      Now, I’m only one year out of graduate school, so that didn’t make a huge difference. I also agree about asking them what they want out of the presentation, because I did and am so glad I did – they wanted something completely different from what I thought they wanted, and it significantly changed the direction I took the presentation.

  49. T3k*

    So, I’ve been casually searching for a new job (current job isn’t all that great but it’s not so bad I’d outright quit). One of my dream companies just happened to post a job in my field with no “certain number of years experience required in this field” like they usually do and so I’ve applied. I fear though they only got my cover letter as I had to register, and most registrations have multiple pages laid out and instead theirs is set up to automatically apply you when you hit register from the job application. I later updated my profile on there to include my resume and cover letter in one file (they don’t have the option of uploading 2 separate documents) and just hope they see both.

  50. Designer*

    So I am the person who wrote a few months ago about my manager wanting trainees to be hermetically sealed from other designers at lunch time (result: I spoke up, manager agreed it was a goofy idea, plan was dropped). Since I wrote in April, we have hired and fired four trainees, which is just insane and a huge waste of everyone’s time. Lately it seems like we keep hiring people who aren’t exactly computer savvy, which is a giant killer as 98% of our job is computer work, and we end up with people who are saying they are really great with computers but can’t figure out how to manage having more than one window open. My manager says that we cannot include hands-on computer work as part of the interview test due to security reasons (big company bureaucracy, argh). Does anyone have any suggestions on how to screen for computer literacy without using a computer? Also advice on how to screen out people who won’t ask for help when they need it?

    1. Kyrielle*

      For computer literacy, honestly, using a computer is the best. Could it be done within company security policies by using a computer that was off the network and created for this purpose, with no files that would be a security risk?

      Other than that – for “asking for help” I’d go with the old “tell me about the time you faced a challenging task” or something similar, I think. (Interestingly, some people will claim they are more independent than they are, then ask for help more often – but most people, IMX, will *not* say they ask for help easily, because some employers see that as indicating you’re needy. So that may make it extra hard to screen for “don’t be such a rugged individualist that you can’t recognize and admit you need help”.)

      It’s also possible this could be improved when you on-board them or work with them – is someone explicitly telling them that it’s viewed as a positive to ask for help if you get stuck? If they do ask for help, are they getting not only the help, but getting feedback (directly or in the manner the help is given) that having asked for it was a good thing?

    2. Cordelia Naismith*

      Ask some specific computer-related questions, maybe? “List the steps you would take to accomplish X” or give them a scenario — “In Y computer-related situation, what would you do if Z happened?” That way, you get a sense of what they actually know about computers without having them take an actual computer skills test.

    3. Diddly*

      I guess it depends on the programs you use – but can’t you give them a hypothetical computer question and ask how they’d solve it – or have some paper questions with images and questions (like screenshots)
      Or is it not possible to set up a dummy account that the applicant uses – like temps would – that has the software but none of the key information?

    4. fposte*

      Oh, for heaven’s sake. That’s incredibly stupid. You seriously can’t put the Office suite on a standalone laptop and have somebody do stuff?

      Right now, your org is getting the trainees it deserves. I suspect that your manager is getting an overread and isn’t pushing back when she should.

    6. JennyFair*

      Is this just basic computer use? Not programming or anything?

      I worked for an extremely large internet business that is also highly protective of internal information. We still managed to put applicants through a computer savviness test prior to interviewing, and did not have to compromise security. Ways to accomplish this:
      If the company is large enough to make the cost reasonable, there are programmers who will build you a mock-up. We had a compony do this for us, and the mock-up was accessible anywhere, so applicants could take this test from home. It was for call center type jobs and gave a pretend internal knowledge base to use and then had pretend customers ‘call’ with their problems.
      Provide a computer that is not on the company network and thus looks just like a home computer. Provide a sheet of steps to follow (Find the answer to this question via wikipedia/google, type the steps to comlete X task, log into this email account and send an email in Y format, etc.)
      If the applicants/job openings are few, in-person observation.

      I once worked as a temp for 9 or 10 months in a government office, but was not eligible for the permanent position due to not having enough ‘points’. I had to train my replacement, and during training she had to be taught how to copy/paste. I worried about my poor office of people after I left :( You have my sympathies!

      1. zora*

        The computer can even be not hooked up to the internet, turn off the wireless card, etc. It can be completely disconnected from any possible way to use it except using the program you want them to use with generic examples.

    7. AVP*

      I like the idea of asking a hypothetical computer question, and asking how they’d solve it. I also always ask something like, “Pretend you’ve come across a technical issue and you don’t know how to solve it. What are your next steps? Take me through the process you’d use to come to an answer.” People who are using computers regularly should have a good answer for that. And if they say “oh, I never have problems I don’t already know the solutions to!” then you KNOW they’re inexperienced.

      My company also has one very tech-heavy position, and we make sure the hiring process for that position includes an informal conversation between candidates and one of the people at my job who are technical geniuses but not management. IME those people can suss out a technical faker from 800 miles away.

      1. Anonsie*

        I think this is a good idea. I know someone who started a job that involves doing trainings in new software a few years ago, and the biggest difference she says she notices between people that are able to work with it quickly and people who aren’t are whether or not they will actually look for a solution if they don’t know how to do something. The more successful people will open up menus and look for something like what they want, maybe try something or other (if that makes sense in the program you’re using), look in the manual, maybe ask the person next to them, google it, etc before asking her for help. The less successful people maybe do that for a second but tend to more or less immediately ask for assistance.

    8. Dynamic Beige*

      Toronto went digital in 1990. I know this is true because between my 3rd and 4th year, everyone who tried to get a summer job was sat down in front of a MacSE and told “show me what you know”. Employers were desperate for people with computer skills. No one in my class got a job that summer in graphics, we didn’t have computers at school.

      So I would say that you speak with your department about what kind of skills you are looking for and set up a fake project for the applicant to “work” on as a test of their skills. From what I understand, people still have to take typing tests for speed and accuracy if they’re applying for work that requires that kind of proficiency (like temp agencies have tests for things like that). Surely there’s a way to get a laptop, disable the internet/wifi and just have the materials the applicant needs on it? 30 day trial version of CreativeSuite? Someone signs in with their passcode for the day of the interviews then the internet is disabled? I have to work at some corporate offices and there is never a guest wifi account, no internet for me unless I use my phone. If it’s not a real project, then they aren’t being forced to work for free and you would have a way to compare all the applicants based on what they did with the same task. Because otherwise, unless they have a proven track record of employment, you really can’t know for sure.

      Although I would also question that if you have gone through 4 people in as many months, I would wonder what the salary was. I doubt it’s very good if you’re getting people who have no skills. Surely people who go to design school nowadays (gets out walker) would have working knowledge of the software. I can’t imagine that anyone is required to use 12″x12″ boards and ruling pens anymore. If the salary is so low that it’s not attracting recent design school grads, that could be part of the problem right there.

    9. Melissa*

      The way I’ve experienced companies screening out people who won’t ask for help is to give them a problem to solve in which they don’t have all the information to solve it. The interviewee is eventually forced to ask questions in order to solve the problem. A lot of interviewers like to see what kinds of questions you ask and the approach you take to solve the problem.

      I don’t see any reason why security would prevent you from doing a computer test. You can get a laptop that’s not connected to the company network or the Internet, and give them a test on a piece of software or something. Use a completed project that’s already public with fake data, perhaps.

    10. TheLazyB*

      Your IT should be able to set up an ‘interviewee’ account that can’t access anything. That’s what we did and UK government computer policy is very restrictive :)

    11. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Okay, we have literally almost the same job/set up, an entire department’s worth and losing four out of four trainees is completely horse doo, as already know. That is bad bad hiring.

      You HAVE to give a hands on test, on computer, on premises, to the prospects, you have to. Our fail rate on new hires is low. Our fail rate on prospects? High!

      This can be done. Get a stand alone laptop not connected to your computer system, put the appropriate programs on it and design a test. Our test is three pieces, about 30 minutes total, that mimic real world tasks, example, clipping paths. If you think that every person who graduates with a design degree can do clipping paths efficiently and well, you’d be wrong.

      Utterly necessary.

    12. Laurs*

      If you can’t set up an off-network computer and use this for a computer-literacy test could you hire one of the companies that will do online computing tests – which the candidates do before the interview?

      There are loads of them and they can set it up to cover exactly what you’re after. As they’re doing it on their own time and from home I’d say that 30-60 minutes is probably the upper limit for this.

  51. Tris Prior*

    Just venting. I really like my job, but the company is having serious financial issues and there have been more layoffs…. so I need to start looking. I really, really do not want to leave but I can’t handle the instability and understaffing (we now have lost so many people that we seriously cannot function) and how everyone’s always panicking about low sales.

    This is the only job I’ve had that I have ever really enjoyed. (mostly due to the culture.) I’m worried that I’m never going to find a good culture again, especially since, at past jobs, I asked VERY pointed questions about culture and work/life balance in interviews and was lied to, by both interviewers and current employees that I asked to speak with. :/

    Also, this is a really niche industry and my previous field has pretty much been shipped overseas. So I’m not even sure what to be looking for! I’m trying to look for jobs that involve my transferable skills but so far have not even found anything to apply to that is not at least a $3/hour pay cut – and I don’t make very much now so that would not be do-able.

    I’m really frustrated – and quickly burning out so having trouble finding the brain space and energy to even think about what to try for next. :(

    1. Kyrielle*

      Good luck. And…Glass Door can be helpful in figuring out company culture, as can reaching out to people you know who are already at the company if you’re lucky enough that you do know someone there.

      1. Tris Prior*

        Thanks! And, good reminder about Glassdoor. The reviews for my previous companies are fairly accurate (current job is not on there) and those for Boyfriend’s job are PAINFULLY true.

  52. onanon*

    I have two job offer-related questions!

    Over the past two months or so, I did a phone interview and an on-campus interview with my top choice (dream job for this point in my career at an awesome university.) During that time I was also interviewing with other institutions. Before I heard back from the dream job, I was also invited to interview on campus at a different institution, which I accepted and which I now have travel plans and accomodations set up for July 28, paid by them. Two weeks ago, I received a verbal offer over the phone for the dream job. I’m now waiting to receive my official offer letter from them, but I’m hesitant to put in my two weeks or cancel the other interview until I have the final offer.

    Question #1: If/when I do cancel the other interview, what should I say? Can I email them or should I call them?

    Question #2: I know this varies a lot, but how long should I expect to wait for the official offer? I sent them my transcript last week, and the dean contacted me on Monday saying that he’s working on the paperwork now and asking for my preferred start date. Can anyone in academia weigh in on the process for approving and sending a job offer letter?

    Thank you!!

    1. Diddly*

      Can you ask the recruiter how long the offer letter process can take to come through and then judge what you do from there?
      Definitely don’t put in your two weeks notice, but I’m not sure about the interview…

    2. Solid B student*

      Can’t help with Ques #2 but on Ques #1: Once you have a firm offer from dream job, Call #2,, thank them for the opportunity, the consideration, but you’ve accepted another offer.

    3. Lia*

      I’m in academia, and the official offer is very likely dependent on sign-offs from various offices (HR, payroll, etc etc) and well, it is summer and staffing is likely to be lower, so things can take a while. I know here at Very Large Research Institution, we do not send out offer letters until every duck is in a row, so that means the transcripts were received, references checked, HR orientation set up — even a temp parking pass assigned, and if one link in the chain is on vacation, there’s some waiting.

      Also, there may be some funding stuff too — is the line dependent on external funding? Might need special sign-offs on that.

      Congrats!!

    4. Melissa*

      Congrats!

      Don’t quit until you have the final offer! Particularly in academia. I do not want to scare you, but I’ve been reading the Chronicle and have read more than a few stories from people who have said offers have been canceled, yanked, etc. before the final paperwork was signed. (In fact, you might not even want to cancel the other interview until you have the offer inked, but that’s up to you.)

      #1 – When I canceled a job interview I sent an email. I’ve heard that you can cancel an interview in whatever manner you set up the original interview – so if they emailed you to set it up, email them; if they called you, call them. It also depends on how much time you have left – I gave them a few days notice so I was comfortable emailing them, and they’d previously been very responsive on email (within a few hours, sometimes minutes) so I knew they’d get it quickly. Calling is probably better, though.

      I just said “Thanks so much for giving me the opportunity to learn about X Company! However, I will have to cancel the interview because I’ve been offered, and accepted, a job with a different company. Best of luck with your search!” They emailed me back and asked me what role at what company, and I told them. They were very pleasant.

      #2 – For a postdoc, it took MONTHS for them to get an official offer letter to me. I was in a weird situation, where I was offered the postdoc a year before I started it – April 2014, and the director of the program forgot to send me an offer letter until November of 2014. However, once she realized that she forgot to send me one, it only took them a couple weeks to work it out and send it along (maybe 2?). Talking to friends who’ve gotten tenure-track offers, they’ve also said it has taken a couple weeks. Usually these things have to work their way up through several levels of bureaucracy – provost’s office, the department, the dean, HR, sometimes other levels higher or in-between. Also it depends on whether you’ve already negotiated or not. I’d definitely ask the chair or the dean how long you can expect the process to take.

  53. Gene*

    Since I’m the workgroup safety rep this year, let me just say, there’s no engineering fix for stupid.

    2. ConstructionHR*

      Every time you come up with a safer process, you’ll discover a dumber result.

    4. NotMyRealName*

      However, applying a two by four to the offending party can provide temporary relief.

    5. Elizabeth*

      I’m the information security officer. I swear, every time we manage to idiot-proof the mousetrap, the universe responds with better idiots.

    6. ThursdaysGeek*

      Here’s your next safety topic: your most important PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) is what you have between your ears!

  54. Relosa*

    Just standard whining that the only update from the majorly awesome interview I had almost three weeks ago reposted the same job last Friday (I wasn’t specifically looking for it; it’s a job board I frequent all the time).

    Why in gods name to people do this. Would it really be that hard to keep candidates in the loop, on the most basic level? Do they not know what that does to our morale? Even better, that always makes me start to distrust the organization.

    I know that’s just Not How Things Are Done, but swear to god if I ever finally get back into a decision-making position that is exactly how I will do things. If you have people that you’re considering that you don’t want to lose out of your pool, then be proactive in communication – period. Just because I’m not on payroll doesn’t mean I’m not an important contact and vice versa.

    1. Cordelia Naismith*

      Reposting the job ad doesn’t mean you didn’t get the job, I don’t think. It just means they haven’t decided yet — an offer hasn’t been made yet.

      1. Relosa*

        They’re still going through first-round candidates. That’s what they told me, anyway. I know it’s not supposed to bother me, and they’re wonderful in every other way, but – do employers think candidates won’t actually see the new posting?

      2. Christian Troy*

        In my experiences, when people repost the job it usually means they aren’t happy with the applicants they currently have and they’re waiting for someone with the experience (or whatever they’re looking for) to apply. So I agree with the poster, it’s usually not a great sign.

    2. Diddly*

      You could get back to them and say you’d applied to the role and yet come across the ad reposted on a different site and wondered whether this was for an additional role?

      1. Relosa*

        That wouldn’t fly. It’s reposted on exactly one site, on exactly one job board – there are two identical postings. The management structure is pretty small, so they wouldn’t open a second equal position for it. It’s a pretty specific role in a specific industry, it doesn’t appear anywhere else.

    3. Malissa*

      I’ve had that happen. Usually though they update the job description with something new qualification as well. It’s frustrating.

      1. Relosa*

        I double-checked – both postings are identical except for the date they were run. So disheartening.

    4. Solid B student*

      I attribute this to a lack of basic manners. It is really not that hard to say ” Thanks, but no thanks”.

      1. Relosa*

        Pretty much. There is nothing – nothing – that stops someone from sending out an email. It can even be BCCd to everyone who wasn’t selected, or who is still being considered not to be alarmed, etc. Don’t promise updates (more than once) and then not actually, you know, update.

    5. Melissa*

      I freaked when the job I interviewed for, and really wanted, reposted the job several times during my interview process. I got the job. So don’t assume you didn’t get it! They might have a policy of keeping listings active until they hire someone, or they might have it set to automatically repost every seven days because that’s how their application manager works, or any number of explanations.

    6. Sara*

      I feel you. I made it through three rounds of interviews with an employer, and am now three weeks out from the that last round. I’ve sent two brief, friendly follow-up emails since then, and gotten exactly no reply. The way hiring works in my field (we hire fast), this almost certainly means I didn’t get the job. And I can handle that, because I’m an adult who has control over her emotions. But what I can’t handle is how damn rude it is for them to not even email me back to say “Thanks, but no thanks.”

  55. Almond Milk Latte*

    I applied for a job at a company that sounds exactly like the one I work for without the visibly crappy elements.

    The job posting read like this:
    – Responsible for thing I’m really good at
    – Manages thing I love doing
    – Makes process improvements in the thing I’ve been doing for ten years

    CROSS YOUR FINGERS.

    1. Ashley K.*

      Good luck! :)

      Make sure you dig into the culture when you interview. Doing the things you love with people who suck kinda kills the fun. ;)

  56. Lucy*

    I got a job offer yesterday! I can’t wait to put in my notice and leave my crazy dysfunctional current position, I’m just freaking out because we’re negotiating benefits and the ball is in their court and it’s been radio silence all morning….

    1. Ashley K.*

      Congratulations!

      In my experience, it means they’re talking.

      This isn’t quite the same thing, but I’ve been interviewing with a company for a couple weeks now. When they asked me in for an in-person interview (lasting 4 hours!), I let them know my schedule this month is extremely wacky. They went silent.

      I shrugged, figuring that they couldn’t stop their hiring just because of my schedule. I totally understood. Then the recruiter I’ve been working with came back to me 2 days later saying they really liked me and were willing to wait until I was free at the end of the month!

      Moral of the story: it ain’t over ’til it’s over. :)

  57. anonanonanon*

    Any recommendations on how to deal with entitled interns?

    We have two interns this summer. One from a $40K+ private university and one from a community college. The intern from the community college is amazing and has gone above and beyond our expectations. The private university intern is the complete opposite. She routinely talks about how she’s getting a degree in X from Y University, so she should be given better work because she deserves it and spent more money on education. They’re both paid, and their weekly salary is a little less than what our Editorial Assistants earn.

    Both interns are working or organizing a focus group for one of our medium profile books. Part of their work includes creating spreadsheets of reviewers, book reviews, sales predictions, and other metadata and creating some packets to hand out at the focus group. I’ve given them free reign to design the packets, order food, pick out pull quotes from the manuscripts to use in marketing materials, and other small duties as long as they send the materials to me and my boss for final approval. This work is basically what they would be doing in an entry level assistant position. The good intern has pretty much taken over most of the work because the bad intern complains that she should be editing manuscripts and working with authors (which is something that rarely happens at my current company without at least 5-10 years of experience in the industry). She has a lot of entitlement issues based on where she’s attending school, and I’ve even overheard her making comments about how the company would be smart to hire her over the community college intern. It’s getting on my last nerve.

    I’ve tried to be polite with the bad intern and give her advice, including explaining how the industry works, but my frustration is starting to show and I keep having to bite my tongue from snapping at her. I manage their work, but my boss is in charge of the HR duties. My boss hasn’t been much help in the matter either.

    Anyone have any advice on how to handle this?

    1. Elkay*

      Can you start having weekly meetings with them individually and deal with the bad intern that way? Would your boss agree to let the bad intern go?

      1. Sunshine Brite*

        I like this suggestion if there’s time left. For the good intern, can review learning goals, see what else she wants to learn, how she wants to grow, etc.

        As someone who went to a $50K private college, I hate those attitudes. I had it a little bit around that age but not nearly as strongly as some probably due to being a first-generation, minority student. It’s not necessarily the college but that someone taught her elitism along the way.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I would stop biting my tongue and tell Snotty Intern to knock it off, now.

      When you overheard her talking about the other intern – I would have stepped in and told her that she’s not doing herself any favors by trash-talking her coworkers and belitting their contributions.

      At this point I’d pull her aside and have a frank talk about her attitude, work performance, and contributions. She’s not as good as she thinks she is – time to take her down a notch.

      2. T3k*

        I second this, but I’ve always been a blunt, no nonsense type of person. I might even go as far as saying something along the lines of “you may be going to Y university, but if you can’t even do basic jobs here, what makes you think we’d allow you to do more responsible tasks, like working with authors?”

      3. anonanonanon*

        I did tell her to knock it off after I heard her bad mouthing the other intern, but I guess I was too polite about it. I have a habit of being brusque when it comes to dealing with BS, and my boss specifically told me to play the “nice mentor” with the interns, so I’ve been trying to scale back how I typically respond to things. But I agree, I think I’m just going to have to step it up and take her down a notch.

        1. OfficePrincess*

          If you’re under instructions to be “nice”, can you frame it as the “nice” thing to do is re-calibrate her expectations for how the world works? Really, the sooner she learns that lesson the better. You’re just going to teach her out of the goodness of your heart. Honest.

          1. Shannon*

            This.

            It’s “nice” to heavily imply that Snotty Intern needs to change a few things or she won’t get the reference she’s probably looking for out of this job. You’re doing her a favor in the long run.

      5. Anonsie*

        I agree. It’s time to stop being polite.

        And if that feels wrong, remember part of your job with interns is explicitly to correct them when they are being unprofessional. You are not doing her any favors by allowing her to behave like this, part of the purpose of the internship is for her to get set straight. Past that, you’re screwing over your really good intern by allowing this one to foist all the work onto her.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Is this a temporary internship? Then I would count down the days until the term ends.
      Otherwise, I would have a talk with the boss about how the intern is slacking off. That is a real cause for concern and one that should be officially addressed. And maybe a discussion about attitude could be tagged onto the work performance talk?

    4. Laurel Gray*

      I would start with a direct conversation with your manager of your observations of bad intern’s shenanigans. I would focus the conversation on specific examples of what Bad Intern said or did. Make your case for why she is sucking as an intern with facts, and give your honest opinion when asked. Maybe it is worth it to let her go. If she completes this summer with Good Intern it means she can put this experience on her resume too, even if a reference given may not be sparkly.

      As an aside: Bad Intern is a perfect example of what can happen when young people are brainwashed about attending college. It reminds me of the letter from earlier this week about the OP that didn’t respect her boss’ degrees. Bad Intern believes she is entitled to better projects because she not only went to college but a good college, yet she has no work experience. In some ways, I don’t know who to blame – bad intern, or her parents/family, guidance counselors in HS, advisers at the university?? Anyway, this message of “college guarantees success” is pounded into many students heads until it creates an ugly beast. Bad Intern believes the name of her school alone means she is qualified to skip over ABC steps in her career ladder. Life doesn’t work like that. [enter story of millionaire or billionaire who: dropped out of Ivy School/used to clean toilets/was raised on foodstamps/lived in a car for 5 years here]

      1. T3k*

        Yeah, I think it has a part to do with the particular college she’s going to (and maybe even a feeling of entitlement from her particular major). For example, my own college and another across the state border both are similar in status (relatively cheap, 4 year schools), and had the same program I was in, but some reason at the other college, their program seemed to make them feel elitist. This ultimately backfired on them though as, being so close, interns from both schools tended to work at the same companies, and our advisors would get feedback from the companies who stated they loved my college’s interns because they were so open to learning and doing whatever tasks, while the other college interns tended to be stuck up to the point some companies would hire only from my college.

      2. Jenna Maroney*

        I transferred from an Ivy to a state school and though there were some things I missed (mostly an adequately staffed registrar’s/financial aid/etc office and a personal advisor) the student body was NOT one of them. While I met some lovely people those places IME really do encourage their students to think they’re the smartest and most important people in the world and at this point my only higher ed related bias is that if someone is from one of those schools I basically assume they’re frustrating until proven otherwise.

      3. anonanonanon*

        I think a little bit of blame is placed on everyone. The university she goes to is a good school, but when it comes down to it, it’s basically a private version of the popular state university. The school is well-known in the Northeast, but it doesn’t have the same name recognition as schools like MIT or Harvard. Part of the problem is that in my area of the Northeast, there are so many prestigious schools that some people do have “opinions” about people who attend a community college, a public university, a private university, or an Ivy.

        But I’ve often found that people who have to brag about where they went to school or namedrop are very rarely people you want to work with or hire. People at community colleges can be just as smart as people at private colleges, but sometimes attending college comes down to money and other social factors. I think more colleges need to explain that the workforce is about what you can do, not where you went to school.

        1. AnonAcademic*

          As someone who has worked in academia (both public and Ivy) in New England, the NY metro area, and now the California bay area, the snobbery over going to a “name brand” school in New England was The Worst. I had the same experience with interns where the State U kids had a much better attitude and work ethic than the Ivy kids. We had 2 Ivy kids who were horrors actually and 2 State U kids who were great, one of them took over my job when I left.

        2. INFJ*

          I’m from the northeast and it’s killing me trying to figure out which college you’re talking about. I know you don’t want to potentially out her, but…. I’m thinking like a BU or BC.

    5. Diddly*

      What do the interns get at the end? A reference or contacts, help? I’d make it clear that good intern will be receiving x, y,z and bad intern will not due to being incapable of doing the work required of them – and warn them that in a real work situation this behavior wouldn’t be tolerated.
      But can you not just fire this intern? With your reasons above? Feels like it’s warranted.

      1. anonanonanon*

        I don’t have the authority to fire the intern. That would fall to my boss and she can’t (or won’t) let the intern go. I think there might be specifics involved with the internship policy/university agreements that I’m not privy to. I’ve asked about it, and the answer I’ve gotten is that it’s HR related which is what she handles.

        It’s only a temporary summer internship, but we’ve hired some good interns in the past after they’ve graduated. Both interns are going to be seniors during this coming school year, so there’s really nothing on the line but a recommendation or potentially a job if one is open when they graduate.

        I have every intention of keeping the good intern’s contact info to pass along if a job opens up, but the worst I can do to the bad intern is give her a bad recommendation if ever contacted.

        1. Laurel Gray*

          “but the worst I can do to the bad intern is give her a bad recommendation if ever contacted.”

          For bad intern’s sake, I really hope she realizes this! The recommendation from this internship is going to hold the most weight in reference checking for her first job.

        2. Colette*

          I think you need to be clear with her that in order to give her a good recommendation or recommend her for a job when she graduates, you need to see:
          – her attitude change (her education is good, but what matters in the work world is your work)
          – significant effort (followed by results) at completing the tasks she’s been given, without complaining about what she’d like to be doing.

          Not being clear about how she’s coming across would be a big disservice.

        3. Melissa*

          That’s actually pretty bad, though. I supervised some RAs in college and still write recommendations and get calls from references for jobs they’ve applied for. I get the sense that employers rely heavily on these for recent college grads. I’d tell her that she’s earning a bad recommendation from you about her attitude, especially if she wants to stay in publishing. A bad recommendation is going to have FAR more weight than a fancy degree.

    6. ginger ale for all*

      When you are with the both of them, verbally praise the good intern. I am pretty sure that the good intern hears that crud from the snobby intern and isn’t saying anything. Just say “Hey, Good Intern, great job with the xyz project! I can tell you are going to go far in the field. We love having you work here”. And then turn around to Bad Intern and tell her that she really needs shape up list out what she needs to be doing better.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        I wouldn’t even tell Bad Intern to shape up. Praising someone in front of someone else and not saying a word to the other person gets the message across. IMO, the bigger issue is that Bad Intern won’t ask for what they need to do to shape up, so whatever you tell them will fall on deaf ears because you didn’t get the same education they did/whatever and the respect is plainly not there.

        I would say to Good Intern something along the lines of “We’ve really enjoyed having you here. You’ve shown initiative, desire to learn/etc. You really should know that in X years, no one is going to care what college or university you went to, it will be all about your willingness to work and grow your skills that matters. I can tell from what you’ve done here that you’ve got the right attitude! Please be sure to leave me your contact information because if there’s a job open here when you graduate in a year’s time, we would be happy to have you apply for it if you wish to do so. I would also be happy to be a reference for you if you need it.” Bad Intern hears something like this, there are two things she is going to do, run crying to Mommy that her boss is Mean in a giant Princess Footstomp tantrum or it will make her ask you “why did you do that?” At which point you pull her into a private space and give her the Straight Dope about how her attitude isn’t doing her any favours and going to a fancy expensive school only means that she paid more money than she should have since her work is not up to snuff. That no one is going to care she went to Harvard (or whatever) if all she does all day is whinge that she should be doing X or Y job that is more important and flatters her ego more than the work she’s been assigned. And tell her that the only reference you’d be willing to give is the confirmation that she was a paid intern there from X to Y 2015. Seriously, you can be nice (i.e. not abusive, screaming or insulting) and still set someone down. She needs a wakeup call. The point isn’t that she’s a snob and lazy and entitled, but that she won’t do the work she has been assigned, or does it poorly while being a poor team player, which is what employers care about.

    7. literateliz*

      I have no advice, just a sympathetic rant: Bad intern sounds like a dummy and exactly the kind of intern I hated dealing with when I was a publishing intern myself. Entitlement issues aside, I can’t stand it when people expect publishing to be like their college English class, where they get to faff around and talk about ~~LITERATURE~~. These people don’t realize that actual work needs to get done to bring books into the world. Work very much like what you’ve assigned them to do, in fact. Once you’ve learned what results in good reviews and sales and buzz through years of observing EXACTLY THE KIND OF FOCUS GROUP YOU ARE GIVING THESE INTERNS A FRONT ROW SEAT TO, then you get acquiring, and THEN you get to help shape the work into something that will sell, i.e. editing.

      Unless you’re on the managing editorial side, and then you get to start “editing” right away. Perhaps this intern would prefer the glory of inserting cross-references and checking running heads?

      In between all these tasks, at my company, we actually do have passionate conversations about the books we’re reading and publishing. But like, work is work. Books are wonderful and most people do get into publishing because of a passion for the written word, but the company isn’t paying you to be a lover of literature.

      1. anonanonanon*

        Exactly! I was never able to do internships when I was in college, so I had a rude awakening to the publishing world when I started as an Editorial Assistant. Still, I was lucky enough to have a boss who gradually gave me better and better projects to work on so I had more experience and worked my way up to working on books and working with authors (even though I end up regretting that sometimes, because some authors are nightmares to work with).

        I think there’s an assumption that working in publishing is glamorous and exciting, but a lot of the work is actually mundane. Even editing books can be tiring, as a lot of it is back and forth between getting an author to compromise on changes. Or having to work on the SAME types of books over and over because that’s the hot selling topic this season. I have as much irritation for people who think publishing is just talking about literature as I do for MFA graduates who think their degree guarantees they’ll be published.

    8. Melissa*

      You may just ned to be very straightforward with Entitled Intern. Meet with her and explain to her that her attitude is affecting the way that others view her and is affecting the work that she gets, too. You may even mention that in your industry, job performance and experience matters a lot more than the pedigree of her university, and that she;s hurting herself by not working her way up and paying he dues. I agree with making the tone more terse, to demonstrate you mean Business.

    9. Ad Astra*

      Yuck. Most people who grow up with that kind of privilege are also taught at least a little bit of tact, but I guess not everybody.

      I would address problematic things as soon as she says them. She may be so sheltered that she honestly doesn’t know how stuck-up she sounds. I’m a big fan of the simple “Wow.” I also like the idea of meeting with each of them weekly, so you can offer advanced guidance to the good intern and privately address the problem with the bad intern.

      Lots of rotten people are only part rotten, so there may still be hope for her!

  58. Jubilance*

    I’ve been on pins and needles all week hoping to hear about an opportunity I’m really interested in. I had a great phone screen with the recruiter, and a great phone interview with the hiring manager and I’m dying for them to call me for an on-site interview. I knew there would be a lag in hearing something due to the holiday and then travel by the hiring manager…but I’m getting antsy and trying not to worry that they don’t want me.

  59. Shan*

    Quick rant.

    If you are sitting at your desk, please ANSWER YOUR PHONE. I work at the front desk, and a large UPS delivery just came in. I called the person the packages were being delivered to, and they ignored me. I had to run around the building to unlock the closet for the delivery man. As I ran by, I saw them sitting at their desk… Granted they could have been away for a moment, but if you see a missed call please call back!

    End rant.

    1. TNTT*

      Quick response.

      No! There are about a thousand reasons why I might not drop everything to pick up my phone, the most likely of which is that I’m concentrating on another project right now, and I’ll call the person back when I have time in my schedule. If you’re the front desk person, it’s your job to manage deliveries as they come in and make sure they get to me.

      1. Shan*

        I normally take packages and place them in a closet behind the front desk. This delivery had over 30 packages and wasn’t going to fit, and I’ll get in trouble if I leave them out in the open. I also am not supposed to leave the front desk area, so I was doing my absolute best to get the delivery to the person who ordered them.

        I understand being busy and working on a project, but if you are expecting 30 boxes to arrive, I would hope to have some help in getting them delivered to you.

        1. TNTT*

          That person might not have known they would arrive that day. That person might not have known that’s what you were calling about. That person might have known both of those things and still decided to continue on doing their own job rather than jumping up to assist with yours.

          That said, I think you probably could have stuck your head in when you passed by their desk to say “Hey, I called because your packages are here, could you help me move them to the back closet?”

          1. Shan*

            That is what I ended up doing. I think it was just a high stress moment where I was trying to keep the UPS guy on schedule, and no one was answering. Looking back, I think I just needed a good vent session, but only because it was an out of the ordinary situation.

    2. Ten*

      To be fair, I get a lot of missed calls that I return who I didn’t need to call back. And then I’m playing phonetag with someone I don’t need to be. Leave a message, even if it’s just asking for them to call you back?

      1. Shan*

        That’s a fair point on not wanting to play phone tag. I guess my frustration is that I was not informed that such a large delivery was coming in, and was under pressure trying to assist the delivery guy. I was in an awkward spot because I’m not supposed to leave the front desk area, and needed assistance from the person who was expecting the delivery.

        1. Ten*

          I get that. I’ve gotten side eye from our internal mail system for not telling them we were expecting a abig package (to be fair, I didn’t know either!)

          Is this someone who regularly receives packages? Might be worth it to bring it up in a ~causal~ way.

          1. Kairi*

            Yeah, it’s someone in the marketing department. I will definitely let her know it would be mutually beneficial to let me know when she orders something online. I could even track it for her if I have the tracking number.

      2. CMT*

        Better yet, send an email instead of leaving a voice mail. I’ll see the email immediately. It takes almost a minute for my phone system to actually get me to any messages left for me.

        1. Shan*

          I sent an e-mail with no response, and they are notorious for not answering my IMs. I can totally understand what everyone else is saying though. I think it was a high stress moment (since delivery guys are on strict schedules) and it just played out in a way that I was overly annoyed by a lack of response.

          I’m good now, sorry for my mini-rant!

      3. afiendishthingy*

        Yeah, I have a policy of not calling back people who don’t leave voicemails. No voicemail tells me you can wait.

    3. Buggy Crispino*

      I can completely understand your frustration – but under no circumstances do I EVER return a missed call just because I see it on the display. If someone wants me to return a call there needs to be a message, text, email …. Something so that I know you still need me and didn’t resolve your issue on your own or with someone else. This holds true for my business as well as personal phone.

      1. Ezri*

        Thank goodness my office has IM across the board… I don’t know what I’d get done if all of those five minute questions required picking up the phone.

    4. TheLazyB*

      I used to work in reception (not the receptionist) and forwarded calls a lot. So many people used to see a missed call, phone me back and say ‘you rang?’. And I had either put them through to voicemail and forgotten about it, or passed them on to someone else and forgotten about it, or done something else. So no, don’t call back unless I’ve left you a message :)

  60. Chocolate Teapot*

    I had an uncomfortable experience in a meeting with a recruiter this week.

    There was a form to fill in to give the names of multiple references before the recruiter would start to work with me, which is not normal here. I don’t want to annoy my referees, and prefer to only give names later in the process, such as when an offer is imminent. I said I would send back the form later.

    Then we moved onto salary discussions, which is normal. There are various standard items in the salary package and I had to fill in another form with the details and how much I am earning. The recruiter then told me, this was far more than the current market rate and gave me what he saw as the range of the current market rate, which was a lower. I was then asked to put what was the minimum salary I would accept, which I did.

    The recruiter then asked me why I had given the lower sum! (Erm, because you said that the market rate is currently lower, and this is still at the top end of the range you quoted). We then moved on to antagonistic questions about why I wanted to change jobs.

    To cap it all, the job he was proposing is with a company which does not have a good reputation! As you might have guessed, I have decided not to work with this recruiter, and will not initiate further contact.

    I was curious to know whether other people have had to give references before a recruiter will start to work with them, and thought this thread might be a good place to ask?

    1. Ashley K.*

      That recruiter you saw sounds terrible.

      References in advance? Not in my experience, no. I’ve worked with a dozen recruiters from a handful of firms so far.

      There may be a difference in approaching the recruiter versus the recruiter approaching you. It’s been a while since I talked to them, but I may have had to give one firm *I* went to more information than I’d normally need to give to a recruiter. Once.

    2. NZ Muse*

      Yup, my husband has. In one case they actually did call references before they would work with him/place him. In the other I don’t think they checked but we also never ever heard anything back from them.

    3. Lulubell*

      Yes, I was asked to fill references in on a form once, and was caught off guard when the recruiter called them all immediately after my appointment. My references knew I was looking, but I felt incredibly sheepish that this recruiter called them, about a job that didn’t even exist yet. It’s possible I could have pushed them off until there was something on the table, but it didn’t even occur to me that they would call my references so soon. Lesson learned.

  61. LDIC*

    Anyone have any advice for an introvert trying to adapt to a potentially very gossipy, preppy work culture?

    I recently started a new job and from what I can tell, the work culture here seems very predominantly shallow and gossipy. I’m in a lower, entry-level position and it seems like most of my peers spend almost all their time talking about clothes, expensive food, where they’re going to get drunk tonight, OR mostly shit-talking anyone who isn’t there. Seems like a lot of my coworkers are recent grads whose parents pay for them to have nice apartments in this expensive metropolitan city we’re in.

    Upper management doesn’t seem to do this as much, but they still do to an extent. And it does seem like most senior staff are likewise upper or upper-middle class. I’ve heard derogatory comments about homeless people several times.

    I mean, I’m not going to criticize too heavily the way others live their lives – but I personally don’t have anything in common with them here. I’m introverted, don’t drink, don’t know much about designer fashion (and don’t have the money to spend anyway!), and several of my personal friends are homeless.

    BUT I took this job because I really needed it. And I know I need to find a way to adapt. I don’t want to seem antisocial and potentially get left out of future client meetings or other opportunities.

    Anyone ever been in a situation like this? I know the work culture isn’t a fit, but like I said, I need the job, so I’d appreciate any advice anyone has about adapting to it and not letting it hold me back professionally.

    1. Kay*

      Keep your head down and perfect the smile and nod. I like “that’s not really my thing, thanks,” when someone asks me to do something that is outside of my own personal choices – which your work culture would definitely be for me!

      Alternatively, treat it as excellent people watching and watch in amazement and mounting horror…

      1. LDIC*

        Thanks!! Haha, I love your last statement! That pretty much was me during one conversation in which a group of my coworkers spent 20 minutes making fun of the pants worn by someone in upper management.

    2. Ad Astra*

      I don’t want to be nitpicky, because gossip and shit-talking are really unpleasant behaviors to be around, but your use of the word “preppy” struck me. In the adult world, I really only hear that word used to describe things (party invitations with chevron print or Sperry Topsiders), not people. So I worry that you’re looking at this as an us-vs.-them situation, the way some of the film/Anime/gamer nerds in high school talked with disdain about all the “preppy” popular kids, and that’s problematic. But maybe I’m reading too much into one word.

      Regardless, I think it will help to remember that you don’t have to be friends with your coworkers, but it will help if you can at least be friendly. It could be that, in an attempt to focus work conversations on “surface” topics, they’ve fallen into a cycle of shallow, materialistic conversations. If you can, try to sway the conversation to topics that are more neutral (some non-controversial local news, the weather, maybe a pet, or of course work). You may find that you do have some things in common with these people, but it will take some guessing or digging on your part to make a connection.

      Do you do any kind of volunteer or outreach work with the homeless? You might casually mention that and see if it doesn’t spark conversation, or at least keep mean comments about homeless people at bay.

      It’s also possible that your coworkers really are terrible people. That happens sometimes. Make your best effort to say hello, ask how people are doing, thank them for their help, etc., but keep your conversations work-focused and be glad you don’t have to see these people outside the office.

      1. LDIC*

        Thanks for the input! Re: “preppy” — I wasn’t totally happy with that word myself, and I honestly didn’t mean much by it. Most of what I don’t have in common with the culture here on the surface does stem from a (probably convoluted) mix of socioeconomic differences (though I’m aware of, and trying to find, ways to get past that). I was trying to find some way to quickly describe that cultural/economic aspect without going into too much detail and risking tl;dr status. “Preppy” probably was not the best way to do that, so thanks for pointing it out.

        I do volunteer work, yes. I actually have mentioned it to one or two people (both senior), though they didn’t have much of a reaction at the time. I will mostly be looking for neutral conversation topics, though, like you mentioned, and hopefully as long as my work is good, that’ll be enough until I have to move on from here.

    3. fposte*

      In addition to what Ad Astra said, I’d rethink the “shallow” assessment. Most of us don’t talk about differential equations in the lunchroom. You’re getting set in a “they’re worse people than I am” mindset that’s going to make it harder for you (and isn’t necessarily true), and it sounds like it could be a defensive response to your discomfort (and maybe a wee bit of “I wish I could afford this”).

      So I’d say deal by bridging the difference rather than judging it. I’d opt mostly for being friendly, curious, noninvasive, cheerful. “Sounds like you really enjoyed your weekend, then. That’s great! That’s such a cool part of the city, isn’t it?” “Wow, those shoes are so much fun–do you have any tips on deals?” (I’ve never met anybody, no matter how much money they had to spend, who didn’t like to talk about clever ways they get stuff for less.) You can stay out of gossip or push back (“Gosh, Miranda’s always really helpful to me”), or see if you can participate with a positive thread (“Did you see that Jane got that promotion? I’m so glad for her–she’s really good at this”). You can also say quietly “That’s not my experience” whenever somebody says something horribly denigrating, whether it’s about the homeless or their colleague. Also look for the quieter people who may be standing there without saying much, and chat more to them.

      In short, try for something between being them and being dismissive of them. I think there’s room there, and that you can find it.

      1. LDIC*

        Thanks for the awesome advice! You’re absolutely right – I am getting defensive (and I’d say definitely more than ‘a wee bit’ in the ‘I wish I could afford this’ front!). But yes, I was definitely looking for ways to bridge, rather than create more distance. Honestly, I think I am the most worried about not participating in/pushing back on the gossip train, since it does seem to happen an awful lot. It’s a smaller office than I’m used to, which makes me think it might be more noticeable if there are limitations on how much I socialize.

        But for now, “friendly, curious, noninvasive, and cheerful” is basically my game plan! I think once I get over the initial culture shock, it’ll be easier — and “something between being them and being dismissive of them” is a great way of putting it.

        1. fposte*

          I think you’re having a pretty normal human response (well, at least I do it :-)) to a group that’s very different than you are, and I think your interest in making it work and willingness to consider the question speak very highly of you.

      2. Ad Astra*

        I agree that this is great advice and I’ll probably incorporate some of these ideas into my own office banter!

    4. W*

      I totally hear you. My situation is like yours. I also struggle with my coworkers, but I’ve long since given up trying to fit in with them. I don’t blame you for thinking your coworkers are shallow and preppy. My coworkers also annoy the hell out of me. They talk about drinking, TV shows, celebrities, etc. and when they have nothing else to say, they complain how hot/cold it is or point at something out the window (“look at that boat/car/object”).

      Anyway, I don’t really have any advice for you. Just wanted to let you know you’re not alone. However, I’ve long since decided that I’m getting out of this place in a year or two. Until then, I don’t talk or engage with my coworkers outside of work matters, but I make sure to engage well with my boss and other staff. I don’t need to fit in with my coworkers–I’m not like them and I am fine with that. In the meantime, don’t cause any controversy and find other staff that aren’t like that (if you can).

      1. AnonAcademic*

        “when they have nothing else to say, they …point at something out the window (“look at that boat/car/object”).”

        Do you work in a daycare? I’m just imagining a toddler saying “Boat! Truck! Car!” ;)

      2. INFJ*

        Ugh. Celebrity gossip. Doesn’t interest me in the least. My mother had the best response to anyone trying to engage in celebrity talk: “Why should I care about any of them? They don’t pay my bills!”

  62. Tagg*

    Apparently, there’s a video game called simply “The Duck Game” that’s making it’s rounds on the YouTube let’s play channels… with the added context from being an AAM reader, I find this quite amusing.

    Especially since one of the controls lets you quack at other players.

    I highly suggest doing a search and watching the videos :D

  63. inkstainedpages*

    So I just started doing some consulting work on top of my full-time job. I can’t for the life of me figure out what taxes I’m supposed to pay for the consulting work. Is there some amount I’m supposed to pay each time I get a check from a project, or do I just report it all when I do my taxes next year? Do I just need to go to a tax person and figure this out?

    1. Ashley K.*

      Get a tax person!

      In the U.S., you’ll normally be responsible for a lot more tax than you usually are. You’re also supposed to make estimated tax payments on a quarterly basis.

      A tax pro will help you figure out the crazy details. On the safe side, consider putting aside 40% of your check to cover taxes. (It will probably, hopefully, be lower – but you never know.)

    2. Melissa*

      Seconded the tax person. You do have to pay quarterly estimated taxes, and you’ll owe penalties if you don’t pay them (they’re small, but still). You can find the forms to pay your quarterly estimated taxes on the IRS website, and there are several calculators that will help you figure out about how much that is.

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      Get an accountant! See if there is a small business government programme in your area that can walk you through the ins and outs of being a consultant. Where I am, if I make under a certain amount, I don’t have to charge sales tax, but if I do, then I have to add it to my fees and remit that amount quarterly. As a consultant, there are certain things you can write off, a portion of your home and utilities, depending on the laws where you are. Find out ASAP but save the 40% as suggested below somewhere, like an online bank account you don’t normally look at just in case. Otherwise, it can be easy to see that money and spend it rather than thinking of it as something that already belongs to the government.

    4. inkstainedpages*

      Thanks, all. That’s what I was afraid of. A tax person is probably going to cost me more than I’m making from these projects.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        See if there is a small business development centre in your area. They may offer training or information — for free — that you need to know to run your freelancing correctly. If there is someone else you know who does this sort of thing, ask them. There may be a Meetup or something like that in your area where you can network with other small business people and ask them the questions you want answered/need to know.

        I just said get an accountant because I ask my accountant things and they handle my tax returns, I could never do that tax return on my own and do it right, I’m sure of it. I find trying to get information in plain English from government websites practically impossible, so I’d rather pay someone to say “In your situation I would/you should…” than try and puzzle it out myself. I’ve been burned by a lot of things I just didn’t know I was supposed to do (or forgot to do). You’re just starting out and it would majorly suck if next year you go to do your taxes and find out X, Y, or Z that you didn’t collect (like mileage on your car, for instance, if you’re travelling to work/do networking) and you’re missing a bunch of writeoffs.

    5. ExceptionToTheRule*

      1) consult a tax adviser;
      2) a lot depends on how much you’ll make. If you expect to make a fair amount, you might need to file quarterly taxes. If you expect to make a little – have extra with held from your full time job to cover some of what your year end tax bill will be. You’ll be responsible for federal & state income taxes and FICA (both the employer half & the employee half).
      3) IRS.gov is your friend.

  64. afiendishthingy*

    Advice on asserting authority without being totalitarian?

    I’m pretty new (a year) to supervising people, and while my organization limits my authority to manage in some ways (I share each employee with a case manager who handles a lot of administrative tasks so I don’t always have input on hiring, and we need approval from higher ups to write people up or fire them), I would say overall I’m more like a manager than just a supervisor. They work in homes with children with disabilities, and I write the treatment plans and train the staff on how to run the programs I write. I visit each client and staff approximately twice a month; staff usually work 10-20 hours a week. A lot of my staff are great, but I have a couple who don’t seem to get that when I tell them they should do x instead of y, they should DO X instead of giving me “Well I did y because of this and this and this, when I do x the child gets mad, it’s always better when I do y”. I always give an explanation for why x is correct and y is not, and I am open to hearing how things are working out for them and I will change some things if it’s clear a certain technique is not going to be appropriate for the child. I worked my way up in this field and I do remember being frustrated when it seemed like supervisors were just giving out orders when I was the one who actually was with the child all the time. But they are doing things that go directly against my treatment plans and evidence-based practice.

    I don’t want to be like the degree-snob OP the other day and say “Well I have these letters after my name and way more experience than you, so when I say jump you say HOW HIGH”, but I’m meeting with both of these people next week to say “I’ve asked you repeatedly not to do things this way, while I respect your input these things are part of the treatment plan and not negotiable. When I’ve brought them up with you you have argued with me, and that needs to stop or it could lead to more consequences including termination.”

    Is that an ok way to say it? I’m a little worried I’m going to get noticeably irritated when we meet and what I really want to say is “I AM YOUR BOSS AND I KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS THAN YOU DO, DO WHAT I SAY.”

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      I’m in a similar boat with a new employee who argues or gets defensive when given criticism or when asked to do things a certain way. I’ve starting saying “non-negotiable” because I’m sick and tired of arguing.

      Honestly, he is capable of amazing work and has so much potential, but I’m starting to think the drama and stress of dealing with him just aren’t worth it.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      “I understand you did it that way because of X, but I need you to do it this other way. I’ve heard your perspective, but I’ve decided that we need to do it this way, and it’s not open for further discussion.”

    3. ScottySmalls*

      Instead of bringing up your degree, you can bring up your experience as direct staff. And remind them it’s okay if the child gets mad at first that’s gonna change. (Why don’t they want the child to get mad? Is it because that makes work harder or because they don’t feel prepared to handle it?) And make sure you’re clear that you support them when they are going through this initial process. That they can contact you if things escalate dramatically. You said that you are open to making changes if something is not working, but emphasize to them that you need them to put in practice first. Then you can add the part about them not arguing with you about the treatment plans and that there will be consequences.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        “And remind them it’s okay if the child gets mad at first that’s gonna change. (Why don’t they want the child to get mad? Is it because that makes work harder or because they don’t feel prepared to handle it?)”

        Oh yes… that has definitely been an ongoing conversation and I think it’s a little bit of both. I like the part about emphasizing that they need to put something in practice before telling me it doesn’t work. Thanks!

    4. Sunshine Brite*

      I may have been that employee but with adults instead. Difference also being I had more education than my bosses and only slightly less direct experience than the supervisor.

      Say that you heard them, but that because of [insert theory here] and [government mandate], we need to try y consistently and document what happens. From there I will review any other options, but until then use y method.

  65. lia*

    Any suggestions for scientific/technical jobs that are accommodating of a chronic illness? I’m a Chemist, I work for a pharmaceutical company in R&D and I get sick 1-2 days a month. It’s pretty hard to run reactions when you’re throwing up and can barely stand, but I’m having trouble giving up my dream job (and 6 years of school!) just because I get sick. This wasn’t a problem in grad school because you’re working at your own pace and on you’re own schedule, but it’s not possible for me to take sick days each month in the working world. Any suggestions?

    1. anonanonanonanon*

      have you talked to your boss or HR about it? Could you ask if they could accomodate a flexible schedule? even an unknown flex need? is there any way FMLA would apply?

      if you want to get out of chemistry because of this, I would see if there are any opportunities for secondements or work shares outside of chemistry that would allow you to use your expertise.

      2. Windchime*

        I wouldn’t say that’s absolutely true. If you work in an agile shop, then code is absolutely time sensitive (or can be). Release day is release day, and the code has to be done by then.

    3. Jubilance*

      Former lab chemist here – there are lots of lab jobs that are more flexible. I get with reactions you have a hard start/stop (ahh memories of grad school!) but what about something like analytical chemistry, or materials evaluation? I did both of those and they tended to be more forgiving when I needed to be unexpectedly out.

      Or you could transition to a role that uses your skills but isn’t so lab-intensive: Quality, Sourcing, Compliance, etc.

    4. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

      I know someone who was a ChemE, worked at a big pharma R&D plant, who had a lot of trouble with ‘idiopathic’ illness. It took years, but eventually she figured out that there was something at the plant that was toxic to her. (My daughter, who is majoring in biology, tells me that I and/or my friend are tripping. But when my friend left the job, she magically got better. Was her illness real or psychosomatic? I’ll never know).

      The only other thing I can suggest is that perhaps you should seek treatment for anxiety?

  66. Ali*

    I no longer feel motivated to job search and I need help breaking out of my funk.

    I had a phone interview this week and was told I made the top five of candidates; the final three will be brought in for face-to-face interviews. The woman who interviewed me said she’d be back in touch by the end of the week; I haven’t yet heard anything from her.

    I know I need to job search to keep my unemployment and to find a full-time position. But part of me is really fighting the temptation to stop searching and just be content with my pharmacy tech job. I feel like “OK, I found a job; that’s enough.” However, the pay is low at least until I get licensed and I won’t get more hours until my training is complete because I’m limited in what I can do. And further, I don’t even know how many hours I’ll end up working. All the techs have been there longer than me, and most of them work 20-30 hours a week (or more than 30), so I’m worried there won’t be enough left for me and I’ll eventually have to leave anyway.

    How can I find the motivation to keep plugging? Part of me thinks there is something better out there. But the other part thinks I’m not qualified for anything but the tech job because of all the rejections I’ve gotten. There has to be a middle ground of thinking, right?

    1. Kyrielle*

      Maybe you’re qualified, and you just need to work on resume/cover letter/interviewing. Maybe you’re so awesome they think you’re over-qualified. (Pfeh!)

      Also, if you get licensed and they don’t have enough hours for you, wouldn’t you then be in a better position to job-search for another (more full-time) pharmacy techn position, if you wanted to?

      1. Ali*

        I am getting a good amount of interviews. I do things like research the company, get told I ask good questions, hiring managers are intrigued by my background…and then nothing. It’s really demoralizing when you *do* work on things and then it’s still not good enough.

  67. msbadbar*

    Where all my government homies at? Have a bureaucratic day!

    Breaking headlines from my department:

    “Invoice Is Not Compliant; Requires Out-of-Compliance Form”
    “Overtipping Scandal!$1.33 Held Back From Travel Reimbursement After Lavish Taxi Driver Tip”

    2. kozinskey*

      LOL’ing. Those headlines are so apt. My favorite gem from my office: “BREAKING: A Chair Has Moved From One Cubicle To Another!!!”

    3. AnotherFed*

      I feel your pain. I was watching Criminal Minds last night, but when the federal agents traveled by private jet and then whoosing off to various scenes in the new location I got distracted rewriting the script. AnotherFed’s version:

      *case arrives*
      “We need to leave immediately!”
      *everyone spends an hour trying to make travel reservations in the government system. Only 5/6 agents get approved travel reservations through.*
      “Ok, now we really need to leave immediately! And we’re a man down!”
      *everyone splits up to go to the three different starting airports they’ve booked flights out of. Everyone ends up with a 5 hour layover in Detroit or Atlanta anyway.*
      “Crap! The killer struck again while we were stuck eating airport Chinese in Detroit! Let’s do as much research and prep as we can in the airport and on the plane!”
      *No one succeeds in getting an internet connection to work, and since all the government tickets are for middle seats, at least 10 random people on airplanes have no seen horrifying case photos they can’t ignore before the plane lands.*
      “We’re finally here! Once we get the rentals, split up – two people to each crime scene!”
      *Everyone gets in line to wait for the shuttle bus to take them to the off-airport cheapo rental company. Upon arrival, they discover the rental company only has one vehicle left – an 2008 minivan that smells like rotten McDonalds and has a broken tail light.*
      “…Let’s just go to the police station and meet our contact. Maybe they can drive us to the scene.”

  68. Fun story - haunted office*

    After reading this blog, I now approach almost every workplace situation as a potential letter to AAM. Not that I need the advice necessarily but I wonder how Allison would answer and what you readers would say. I figured I’d share my unique situation though it has yet to turn into a real problem for anyone here.

    I work in an old Victorian house that has been converted into office space. It is haunted by at least one friendly ghost. Me and several other people have had experiences with it. The experiences are generally friendly though they can be annoying. Mostly noises that someone is walking through the building or messing with stuff when you are otherwise alone, things falling off shelves randomly, individual light bulbs from a set blinking on and off together, pictures moving on walls – nothing too crazy.

    Of the people here, a handful believe in it and are cool with it, a few are afraid of it and refuse to be alone in the building, a few others don’t believe because they haven’t experienced it. So far everyone has worked it out among themselves that the ones that aren’t afraid stay late or come in early if necessary. It would be interesting though if someone was afraid had to stay late or come in early and wanted to refuse based on the ghost.

    Also, another interesting issue came up. One person believes in it but doesn’t want it around her and wants to tell it to go away if she is ever experiencing it. A couple other people who have become fond of it don’t want her doing anything that will make it go away for good because they enjoy the random experiences. There has been some debate between these people. The one who doesn’t like it has agreed to only tell it to leave her alone and not try to send it out of the building entirely lol.

    Sure makes my job interesting!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Oddly enough, my sister also worked in an old Victorian house that was haunted. They had ghost hunters come out and everything, and they got some super creepy footage!
      In this case, there was a lot of tragedy in the home and the spirits were very sad, and others were servants who seemed to just be stuck there. I think about it every once in a while and wish someone could guide the spirits to move on. It seems cruel to keep them there for entertainment.

      1. Fun story - haunted office*

        I’m pretty sure ours are happy because we have heard giggling. Our boss owns the building and he’s not a big fan of us talking about the spiritual co-tenants. Not sure if he’s afraid, worried about property value, doesn’t believe, wants everyone working and not chatting or what. I don’t think he would ever allow us to bring in a spiritual guide or tv show. He doesn’t necessarily tell us not to talk about, he just usually walks away when we do and says “I don’t want to hear about it” and shuts his door.

        1. kozinskey*

          Giggles coming from a ghost would not reassure me. Haven’t you ever seen Supernatural?

          1. Sunshine Brite*

            I know, right? First the ghost is all nice and helping out and then they start breaking stuff and don’t know their own strength.

    2. Ten*

      I worked in a haunted hotel for a short time, but I only had one or two encounters. One time it threw part of a coffee machine at me (started sitting on top of the machine, and I was in the middle of the room.) Now I’m in a modern office with no ghosts :( I love hearing about haunted workplaces!

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Ooh, I love this! I grew up in a haunted house, so I’m sort of blase about noises, stuff falling, invisible people walking up behind you (okay, that one wasn’t so much fun), etc. I have wondered once or twice if Mildred (the original owner of my house, which I call The Crumbling Albatross because it needs work I can’t afford) has come back now and then. Stuff falls and once I swear I thought I saw something move in the kitchen. If so, she is probably disgusted with the state of the bathroom, LOL.

    4. EvilQueenRegina*

      When I worked for The Real Office, I started out in a building that was supposed to have been an old workhouse. That was rumoured to be haunted by a ghost called Edgar. When we left that building to move in with the rest of the team, Edgar was believed to have followed. It was mainly things like computers turning themselves off, things disappearing from the shelves and then the next day they would reappear sticking out so you couldn’t miss them, things falling down. A temp quit with no notice once leaving her jacket behind and rumour had it Edgar scared her off.

      He seemed to disappear after Bob, this guy who came from the old building, retired. One joke at the time had been that he was a disgruntled client who had been kept waiting so long for Bob to process his grant application that he died. Considering Bob, that wasn’t out of the question.

      2. Fun story - haunted office*

        Our ghost kept a lost earring safe for me from the cleaning crew. It appeared the next morning in the middle of my carpet after I stepped out to tell someone I had lost it the day before.

        We have also had fun tech issues potentially care of the ghost. Our large printer just started printing reams of paper with a big black circle with a date and time in the middle for no reason. My personal printer will just not work at times and then work at others. If I send an email during another occurrence, like the lights or stuff moving or falling, the email will show up as sent but never get to its destination.

        I love hearing that other’s have worked in this environment.

        Also, our ghost stopped visiting for months after one of my coworkers was hired. He was mocking some of us for believing in her. Then one of his books flew off his shelf and the next time he worked late at night alone the power went off in the whole building, but not the neighbors’ buildings. He has not since mocked her but still claims to “not believe.”

        1. Fun story - haunted office*

          Oh and the big printer thing didn’t “just” happen as in right now I meant it started on its own out of nowhere but that was a couple years ago now.

    5. Dynamic Beige*

      OldJob was haunted. I saw it one night — full body of a man that wasn’t there a second later — and it freaked me right the hell out. The rumour was that the place used to be a slaughterhouse a hundred years previously, which was why all the floors were slanted towards the center of the building. Anyway, my office mate had felt/seen/heard it several times, mainly feet running/walking around. There were people who refused to work late alone, and others who never saw it and didn’t believe.

      There used to be a TV show called Rescue Mediums where these two English ladies (not sure from where in the UK they came from) would go to a house, find the restless spirit(s) and help them cross over. It was a funny little show.

    6. Claire (Scotland)*

      One of the school buildings where I work is a 16th C house reputed to be haunted by a White Lady. I’ve never experienced anything myself, and I’m not a believer really, but lots of colleagues have reported seeing or hearing things. Most recently, a janitor heard a piano playing in a room he’d just been in, which was empty.

  69. North*

    I am at total bitch eating crackers stage with a coworker in another department. I don’t think she’s good at her job. We have to work closely together, but she frequently misses my edits, demands pieces of information days and even weeks before their deadlines (deadlines that she herself gave me), sends cutesy passive-aggressive emails when I make the tiniest slightest mistake (like misspelling one word in an entire document), sticks to rigid “industry rules” that don’t apply to our corner of the field because she read them online once in a blog post, and she is a genuinely terrible writer in a job that requires good, clear, succinct writing. I am not the only person who feels this way by a long shot. A departing coworker said that dealing with this coworker was by far the most stressful part of her job, and her job was not a walk in the park.

    My boss is well aware of, and shares, my concerns, which I have expressed in a diplomatic and professional way. However, coworker’s boss is highly protective of her, takes all of her complaints as gospel (To the point of emailing my boss last week “North didn’t get this information to so and so on time, causing a delay that impacted this project” when I sent the information precisely on time, and was able to say that without hesitation to my boss, it just wasn’t 3 days early), and seems not to notice the poor quality of her work (in a totally different area than boss’s own work).

    I really don’t think anything will change, but what are my strategies for moving past bitch eating crackers and into a more dispassionate stance on this? Literally every email I get from her makes me want to throw things across the room right now.

    1. Kai*

      So I also have a coworker who does terrible work and whom I can’t stand. I put his most inane emails to me in a folder marked “Hilarious,” and sometimes I go back and reread them when the crisis has passed. It helps to make a little joke out of it, even just with myself. I’m always pleasant and professional to his face, but thinking of him as something to laugh at/about helps a lot with my mood.

    2. NicoleK*

      Sorry, I don’t really have any suggestions. I am in a similar situation except new coworker and I share the same boss. And my boss doesn’t seem to care. New coworker gets special treatment. So I’ve stopped caring. I expect nothing from her. I don’t expect her to work on any of my projects. That’s the only way to deal with my frustration.

    3. catsAreCool*

      You’re probably already doing this, but keep a file (preferably e-mails from her) that shows the real deadlines so that your boss has ammunition to hand her boss if things get messy.

      Also, it might be good to occasionally e-mail her with “These are the pieces of information I’m going to get for you and the deadlines.” If she agrees to those by e-mail, then that’s more proof.

      Have you told her these “industry rules” aren’t real?

  70. Denita*

    Ah, my coworkers and I are actively counting down on when one of our managers is going to try and fire us all to get a new team. For clarification, this has been an on-going issue since the new manager was hired, and we suspect she doesn’t like the team (us) since this is a new unit and we’re basically going in blind with out work. Happy Friday, whoo!

    1. Dynamic Beige*

      Is there a pool? If there’s going to be widespread misery, someone must have a weak ray of sunshine by winning the pool.

      1. Denita*

        Haha, no, but I do think we’re trying to out do each other on who can grumble the loudest.

  71. straws*

    My company has a few jobs we’re potentially going to post for, but we’re still trying to gather info for salary comparison. I’ve seen a few other local companies advertising for similar positions (without salary info, of course). Would it be weird to reach out to them and see if they’ll let me know their salary range? I fully expect some, if not all, to suspect that I’m a potential applicant trying to get info and/or ignore me, but it would be useful info if they responded…

    1. Ginger ale for all*

      Have you tried going to the Bureau of Labor Statistics website and typing in the job title in the search box to get a range yet? It would be a good place to start, jmo.

  72. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Ok, so help walk me through the thinking on this, would you? Let’s play: You Be WTL!

    We’re a smallish (under 100 people) division, with a thin layer of management. We’re growing which means we’re hiring pretty much all the time. (We take a break during our busiest season.)

    Alison’s advice (as I’ve retained it) is for hiring managers to review all incoming resumes and do initial phone screens. Once upon a time we operated this way but, it’s all too much for hiring managers who also have regular jobs to do + people to manage. We have a 40 hour a week culture so the right answer isn’t for a hiring manager to spend her weekend doing that extra work.

    Now, the good news is we have extra resources, literally. We brought on a highly experienced HR director two years back, extensive hiring experience + we have access to a company wide internal recruiter.

    What happened next is that we pretty much dumped ALL initial hiring steps on them. Which, felt great for the rest of us. We’d only get screened candidates with initial interviews set up for us, and then hiring managers would take it from there. What a god send!!

    But, after a year and half of doing things this way, we’re not happy. We can’t believe the lack of volume of candidates making their way to us. These are for entry level positions, for the most part, decent, market level pay with no upfront hard experience or skill qualifications. We prefer college degree and we prefer some work experience. The ads are well written and include upsell about the particular benefits of working with our company.

    What we think is happening is that our internal recruiter is screening too hard and, yes, we’ve had that conversation multi times. Our style, before internal recruiter, was to be choosy about whom we hired but not that choosy about whom we spoke to initially. We think the internal recruiter is being too choosy about whom she even speaks to.

    Important point: the internal recruiter is an available resource. She does not report to us, nor are we required to use her. We can suggest changes, we can’t enforce them.

    OK, you be me. What would you do? You don’t have a lot of extra money or time to solve this problem because, I don’t either. :p You do have five, fully booked, hiring managers at your disposal. You are trying to hire a couple of people per month. The only extra money or time you get is by taking it from somewhere else.

    p.s. I love you all to death but the only way I can keep posting to AAM is if I don’t out my identity or my company. That means I can’t consider fellow AAM readers for jobs, even if I need candidates and you need a job. Which, is sad, but I can’t sacrifice my participation here.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think you have to go back to the managers reviewing them. Or have the HR person do just a really rough screen – only remove the people who clearly lack the desired skills.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        My guess, at this point, is that either an internal recruiter (generally) is a poor choice for entry level positions or our particular internal recruiter sucks at it and we have to bring the tasks back into our people.

        The recruiter is decent at bringing us good, experienced candidates when she can look at specific job requirements and match them up.

        The how to bring it back in, we are still wrestling with.

    2. TheExchequer*

      Well, I think the first thing I’d do is make sure that the internal recruiter is, in fact, the problem. I’d be tempted to submit mock resumes of candidates and see what comes through and what gets blocked.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Yeah, we’ve come up with all kinds of schemes like that and then abandoned them for time constraints. But you want to!

    3. cuppa*

      We have it set up through an online application system. Our HR person reviews the resumes and tosses over likely candidates, but I also have access to all the applications and can choose others to interview if I want to. I’ve done it many ways – I’ve had her review the applications and interviewed only the ones she sends over, I’ve read all the applications and chosen my own candidates to interviews, and I’ve interviewed her choices first, not liked any of them, and then selected my own candidates. I like the way this works because it’s flexible enough to meet my needs.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        See, we need this. We do really need this. That would be perfect.

        IDK when if will happen though. We have taken pride in not having an online application system, but wow, how helpful would it be now when we’re going “is this it really??” to be able to pop on the database on a Saturday and easily flip through apps she might have missed.

        I think this needs to be on the To Do list, no matter what steps we take or how long it would actually take to implement.

    4. Beezus*

      Have you tried giving her a targeted number of candidates to deliver to you, and specifically told her to consider her screening criteria to be guidelines rather than firm minimum requirements? Then, if she doesn’t have enough candidates, she knows to be more flexible about the screening criteria. Right now, it sounds like she’s piloting by the screening criteria and being flexible about the number of candidates she lets through, and you need to flip those priorities to get what you’re looking for.

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Yeah, actually we have. The response we get back is that if we want more candidates, we have to spend more money.

        OK first of all, this is decent market pay.

        Second of all, it’s part of a structure. We can’t start hiring people at a rate higher than what people who have been here a few years are making, not unless you want blood in the river when it all comes to light, or unless you’ve found oil under the corporate building so we can change the entire structure.

        Third of all, sure, if you could post all jobs at six figures, a recruiter’s job would become pretty easy, wouldn’t it?

        Anyway, yes, we tried saying send us X people per and that’s what we get back.

        1. Beezus*

          Nononono. I mean, you said it, duh, if you pay enough her job does itself. That’s kind of a cop-out.

          But she can review applicants every week for your Teapot Marketing Assistant position, and rank them and schedule interviews for the top X people, regardless of fit. Or send the hiring manager a ranked list with a short blurb for each, and the hiring manager has final say on who gets interviews. If you end up with really truly undesirable candidates on the list, then maybe it really is as bad as she says it is, but based on your posts yesterday and today, it sounds more like she’s screening too rigidly and having a hard time giving that up.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      I’d ask to see all the applications for one of the positions. When asking for them, I’d take the approach that you want to make sure you are phrasing the ad correctly and want to make sure the screeners have a clear understanding of what you are looking for.
      It is possible that the number of applications have simply decreased.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        I like the idea of giving her a minimum you need to see each week/month/quarter/whatever. Or, asking her to review them all and give a thumbs up/thumbs down but pass along all the resumes (including ones she gives a thumbs down to) – then your managers can skim through just the ones she rejected and add them to the “to be screened” pile.

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        We’ve pulled all of the applications for one position from her entirely.

        Anecdotally, for this one position, she was not following instructions. It’s like she can’t wrap her head to “no experience required”. This particular position is hard to hire for though, it always has been, so the part where she was screwing up on this one doesn’t mean she’s inept. It’s a toughy.

        (You post this particular job, you get 100 apps, 90% of which are people looking for a way more advanced job than the one you have posted, so it’s confusing to sift through and find the right candidates who are actually looking for the job you’ve posted.)

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It could be interesting to show her the resumes of good employees who wouldn’t have gotten past the screening she’s currently doing, and use that to help her understand why she’s approaching it the wrong way.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        That’s interesting . We’ve talked about it with her but I don’t know that we’ve actually given her old resumes.

        We think that part of the disconnect is that an internal recruiter is trained to identify quality candidates by work history and, the very nature of entry level positions, work history isn’t that important to us. What they have a degree in isn’t that important either. (If they don’t have a degree then we do care about work history, up to the point it produces a track record of completion, the same as a degree would.)

        Phone screens tell a lot – good speaking voice, confident, personable. That’s what should move them onto the next level interview.

        We’ve said this, multi times, but I don’t think we’ve given her old resumes. I’m going to throw that idea out to my folks.

    7. edj3*

      A couple of jobs ago, I had this same problem. The candidates that got through the inept HR person’s screening were beyond wretched and unsuitable, and there weren’t very many of those either.

      My drastic step was the one you don’t want to do: I cut out the HR person and went back to reviewing the resumes myself. Painful but far better results.

    8. it happens*

      You say that the ads are well written, which is obviously important, but then you need to know what happens in the black box between the ad and the people your team sees. As a first step, I think it’s fair to ask to see the ‘funnel’ from the postings for the last year. In this case, that would be (in case it isn’t something used in your industry, picture it as a downward-facing funnel resulting in a hire) the number of responses to each ad, the number of people HR screened, the number that were sent to your dept. If there aren’t very many responses, then you can see if the ad is the problem, if there are a lot of responses and not a lot of screenings, you can sit down with HR person and go over the last set of responses to understand how people fall out of the funnel and give feedback on applicants who could have gone to the next step from your perspective. Approach it as a learning opportunity;) Let’s face it, if you don’t have to pay for the HR help, then you really don’t want to have to bring it all back to your busy team.

    9. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      So much input, thanks!

      I’ll respond in more detail later (ya know I’m good for the detail). ;)

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Unfortunately,the recruiter works out of state, remotely. That makes problem solving harder.

    11. HR Caligula*

      I hire every spring for approx 400 seasonal entry level positions. I travel to numerous cities in 7 different western states.
      The previous 3 years showed less interested applicants but not too alarming, this year was very dramatic drop in available applicants.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        First of all, god bless you with that job. Just, god bless. I can’t imagine. Hiring just one person is exhausting.

        Second of all, well I guess that is good news for the economy but I don’t know why we are seeing such a disconnect between our real world experience and the official economy news.

    12. KAZ2Y5*

      Could you ask for 2 levels of candidates? The top level (which you are already getting) and a second level that meets maybe 50% of your requirements? Or whatever would work for what you need.

    13. AnotherFed*

      If lots of your entry level postings are for the same or similar jobs (or at least require similar qualifications), can you try skipping the HR/recruiter, but pooling all of the promising candidates after the initial screen? Then your hiring managers can pass people back and forth if they’re good, but not right for one specific role, and if you get a good field, your second and third choices for one position could easily be your next hire for the same/similar role, possibly saving you having to post another ad.

      Another alternative is to have your high performing junior employees who aren’t yet managers (but who you’re expecting to grow into more leadership) take some of this on. It’ll certainly take them longer and the hiring managers would probably still need to provide some guidance, but it’d get some of the legwork off your managers. It also can be huge in building a sense of ownership and development for your good junior employees – they get a say in their next coworkers, they get to spend some time really thinking about what makes someone good vs great at their job, and you start building the skills and loyalty to let you promote people from within when all these new people you’re hiring also require new management roles.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        You win the You Be WTL prize! It doesn’t mean that it’s the right answer, but this is the forward looking step we are taking, so it is what WTL would do. :)

        Another alternative is to have your high performing junior employees who aren’t yet managers (but who you’re expecting to grow into more leadership) take some of this on.

        We can’t do this with everything, and we can’t create an entire job out of it (budget), and we haven’t jumped ship on the internal recruiter yet, but that’s exactly what we are doing. We’re trying this out in pockets and, if it works, will grow the experiment into our normal practice.

        1. AnotherFed*

          Sweet! You often come up with solutions I’d never even thought of (but wish we had!), so it’s very cool to see this. A couple of years ago, I was the junior person starting to do hiring – I and one of my peers had asked for additional people to support our respective project areas, and there were no people to be had, so our supervisor had us go hire a few and then be their mentors when they arrived. That’s how I found AAM.

          It worked out well for us – when my peer and I got the new people, we were both already pretty invested in them and worked hard to be good mentors/team leads to them. Those new hires are now fledged and leading their own projects, and while neither my peer nor I are official supervisors, we’re both now in team/project leadership positions instead of small or independent projects.

          Hope it works out as well for you, WTL!

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            What a very good point I never thought of, that involving jr people in hiring makes them more invested in their new co-worker’s success.

    14. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

      I find this extremely interesting, because we’re doing almost exactly the same thing at my company, with the pre-screening of candidates for entry-level positions (although there are some hard skill requirements). And I’m noticing something similar: we’re not getting huge numbers of candidates.

      It’s not yet to the point where it’s causing serious pain, but – HR Caligula’s comment really hit home for me. Hard to put my finger on it, and I arguably shouldn’t make this kind of generalization without better evidence, and also I’m being somewhat intentionally vague, but – it seems like there are fewer people looking for jobs these days.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Ok but here’s the thing I can’t puzzle, new college graduates happen like, you know, every year. Our main entry level job is a perfect first job out of college — for people who didn’t do a technical major like engineering or computer science or whatnot. It’s not a dream job, so maybe when you graduate in May it’s not the first job you apply to, but eventually people gotta start somewhere and pay some bills. You get resume experience and a starter salary that you aren’t embarrassed to tell your parents they paid college tuition for. (Most of our new grads stay with us for many years, fwiw.)

        Unless all new college grads are getting snapped up, there should be a fresh pool of candidates for us being minted consistently.

        IDK, maybe we have to go back through the ads again. IDK!

        1. Sparkly Librarian*

          Our main entry level job is a perfect first job out of college — for people who didn’t do a technical major like engineering or computer science or whatnot.

          Can you say this, if slightly spun, in your job postings? And/or target those populations specifically when you decide where to post them?

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            First of all, cringing at my wording. It’s not a perfect job. It’s a good job for the right person. “Perfect” is my marketing hyperbole self coming through in the post. :)

            Thanks, yes and we do. It is probably true that there’s improvements that can be made to where we are recruiting, although time space continuum restraints to how many resources we can throw at that.

  73. Ashley K.*

    I feel like I’m whining, but I really need to get this off my chest.

    I work in a fairly autonomous marketing role (brand manager, products assigned as 1 brand manager to 1 product). This company made me promises when I joined that have been bothered, but I accept that things change. The biggest lie is that this company is run as a small business, not beholden to the mega-corp in Japan.

    My manager seems to think that he needs to be involved in and in charge of everything. He gets overly involved in my projects and has done the same with his other report who is ostensibly in the same role as me. Then he complains about having too much work.

    His “help” has consisted of excessively editing my company presentations to the point of seriously undermining my messaging; interrupting me when I’m giving product updates to our team, only to look at me and ask me if there is anything at all I can share; taking over vendor relationships that I should be driving as the arbiter of the brand; and treating me as an assistant.

    It’s that last one that has driven my frustration through the roof. We are working with a vendor to develop a logo for one of our products. We had a meeting with the producers and art director to review the mock-ups and consolidate feedback. Not only did he take over the meeting and do completely the opposite of what we’re supposed to do (we should be quiet, prompt the production team to explain their feelings and guide them to think in terms of the overall messaging — he very loudly argued with people and offered his own opinions without regard to those guidelines), but at the end of it he told me, and I quote, “type up those notes and set up a meeting.”

    Remember: I am a brand manager. This is my project. He is my manager.

    Am I crazy for being upset about this?

    [[Probably relevant: he has been in the industry for 20+ years. I am female. Both he and his boss have given some really sexist comments about our target audience that have irritated me to no end. They also see nothing wrong with this and feel like I’m just being too sensitive.]]

    1. msbadbar*

      You’re not whining. A good manager would trust you to do your job and offer help when you ask for it or need it, not trample over you at every opportunity. Some people just can’t let go and have to be involved in everything. Why delegate or trust others when you’re the smartest person in the room and know best? ;) It sounds like a general personality trait and not a reflection on you.

      Also, the “too sensitive” comment is a clue that the opposite is true. It’s the annoying cousin of “Can’t you take a joke?” It’s how manipulative people avoid responsibility by reassigning blame from their words to your (supposedly problematic) personality. Don’t fall for it.

    2. Sammie*

      No advice. But mad empathy in coming at you! I work for a micro-manager who is firmly entrenched in the “boys club” that is our marketing department. It sucks.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      God no, you aren’t over reacting.

      A brand manager manages, you know, the brand. What you have described is ridiculous.

      I don’t know how you change a boss who is operating that far out of his scope. You can probably come up with some good wording to have a conversation with him about it, not in the heat of the moment, but I don’t have a lot of faith anything will change.

      Need a new job.

  74. Dot Warner*

    Because of the advice on this blog, I gave notice at my current job and next month start my dream job in my dream location!!! Thank you, Allison!! And thank you, too, commenters!

  75. powerpoints*

    I have to give a 45 minute powerpoint to all the staff at my org (about 30 people). Is it worth trying to “jazz” it up? I will be talking about an important policy change and right now I’m focused on making it clear and easy to follow. I know people hate powerpoints (I won’t just be reading off the slides, promise!) but I’m on a short deadline so I don’t think I’m interested in going to a completely different platform.

    1. Mike C.*

      Jazz it up by shortening it to 30 minutes to allow for questions, and be clear about how it directly affects the audience or those who the audience cares about.

      1. powerpoints*

        Yes, should have mentioned – I will definitely allow 15 minutes for questions! The staff hear will actually take advantage of it, so that’s nice.

      2. Nanc*

        Excellent suggestion! Also, if the policy changes are online, include links in the PowerPoint and send it off to everyone before or after the meeting. Full disclosure: I’m a visual and not an auditory learner so if I got the doc before the meeting so I could review I would be thrilled to the tips of my little black boots. I would also listen and ask questions after!

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      See my notes above about delivering a webinar (just search for my name). A lot of the same advice applies – mainly about thinking of the presentation as training (even if it’s not about teaching a skill), and therefore spending the majority of your time with the audience engaging in doing something rather than listening to you.

      1. powerpoints*

        I’m replying up thread since hopefully that will make it easier for others to find and read. Thank you – great tips!

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      That would depend on what you mean by “jazz it up”. As someone who has been doing presentations professionally for high-level corporate clients for 20 years now, I would much rather you did clear and easy to follow than add a bunch of video or audio clips to “jazz” it up. If you must have a lot of information on a slide, consider doing two decks. One that’s the actual presentation and one that’s denser as a handout of all the information you present.

      Here’s my advice: write everything you want to say out. Everything. Not bullet points not “and here I’ll talk about last year’s results”. Once you’ve got that, read it out loud and time yourself. Did you hit the 30 minute mark? Does it flow properly? Can you now see different ways you might want to get a point across or information you might have left out? Edit as needed. You might want to start off with a summary of the topics you’re going to cover and then review them at the end again. “I’m going to talk about Productivity techniques”/”I spoke about using X tool to increase your productivity with Y task”, along those lines.

      Once you’ve got what you want to say, then work on the slides that support it. Are there images that get a point across better than bullets? In some cases, a bullet list is fine, but not when all the slides are and the text is 14pt to fit it all in. If you think there’s a slide that’s too busy, get up and walk away from your screen until you’re about 10′ away from it. What jumps out? What doesn’t? Are your points too close together in some areas? Or are you speaking a long time to one slide in others?

      You’re already on the right track that your slides should support what you’re saying (it is called speaker support for a reason) and that’s most of the battle. I can’t begin to tell you how hard it is to get some people to not cram it all on the slides.

  76. BananaPants*

    What’s typical turn-around time on a pre-employment background check? This is for my husband’s recent job offer. References were already checked just prior to the written offer, which is contingent on a drug test (done a week ago) and a background check. The HR rep told him that if anything came up to delay his start date she would contact him, and the start date is now in just over a week. Can we assume no news is good news?

    There should not be anything negative on the background check – he has absolutely no police record, didn’t lie on his application or resume, has decent credit, etc. – but you read horror stories about these background check companies making mistakes and reporting the wrong person’s info and people having jobs rescinded over it, and it’s a little scary. If the background check isn’t completed in time and his start date is pushed out a week or two we will be paying a lot for childcare before he gets a paycheck coming in, and would have a major cash flow issue as a result. Of course that isn’t his future employer’s concern (or business) but if we need to borrow money from family to get us through, it would be nice to know that sooner rather than later.

    1. cuppa*

      I used to run these as a part of my job, and…. it depends. I could have some back the next day, and some back in a week or more. What I found took the most time was if you have lived in a lot of places, especially smaller counties or areas. A lot of times, these places have clerks looking for the info, and if they are busy or understaffed or the one person who does it is on vacation, it is going to be delayed. The good news is that I never saw someone get unfairly dinged on a background check (I still get nervous about them, too, but seriously, I never saw it). Good luck; I hope it comes back soon!!!

    2. afiendishthingy*

      Ugh I was in this boat a year ago, it was nerve racking. Most of my clearances came through right away but I work with kids so they do a check to see if there have been any complaints about me to child& family services, and that state department is so. slow (about 3 weeks compared to 1 week or less for the others). I needed to give notice to my other job or else wait an extra month to start when the new place had an orientation going on, which because of the schedule at oldjob would have meant a major cash flow issue also. I think it’s worth calling ONCE to explain the situation and find out if no news is indeed good news (sounds like it probably is). Good luck!

    3. Melissa*

      Ha, I have some very recent experience with that. I filled out the form for the background check last Wednesday, and received confirmation it was completed yesterday. So for me it was about a week. The recruiter said it normally took 5-7 business days (during which time I completed freaked myself out by reading horror stories.)

      For what it’s worth, one of the “horror stories” came partially true for me – the company couldn’t verify my employment at one of the internships I did. The “horror” was that I had to send a copy of any documentation I had. I’m a packrat so I had the W2 and the offer letter. I attached it to the application and a day later was told the process was complete. Background check companies make mistakes…but I get the sense that it happens very rarely. (Whatever you do, do NOT do an Internet search on this. It will only freak you out, and won’t give you any useful information how often it happens. I tried.)

      1. Melissa*

        And oh, as corollary to what cuppa said, I’d had four different addresses and, if I remember correctly, 5-7 different part-time internships/jobs/gigs in the past 7 years, which is how far they asked me to go back. (I was in graduate school). So I think the length of time might have had something to do with that.

      2. BananaPants*

        Yes, I should have forbidden myself from firing up Google because it’s only served to freak me out completely. Most of the non-crazy background check issues that I found online were situations where someone had a misdemeanor and the employer initially said it shouldn’t be a problem and then it was. But Mr. BP’s background is totally clean so I’m probably worrying over nothing.

        They asked for info going back 7 years. We’ve only lived at one address in that time but he’s had 4 jobs and the oldest of them was with a company that went out of business around a month after he left. I don’t know if we still have those W2s so that could be a problem if we have to prove it, but I’m going to keep my fingers crossed.

        1. Afiendishingy*

          I’ve only seen a couple applicants at my agency fail the background check in the past year and I don’t think either was surprised. Both times it was the criminal background check (we also do driving record and state child/family service), one for domestic assault (no, you can’t work with at risk kids with that on your record) and one d

          1. Afiendishingy*

            Oops pressed send by mistake. The other was for “giving false documents to a public official.” Immigration issue. so I think the odds of something going wrong with your husbands are pretty dang low. But waiting is the worst!

    4. BananaPants*

      He received a copy of the background check today at our home address – they confirmed that he is who he said he is, that he has no credit issues, and that he passed his drug test. There were no issues on the report so hopefully we’re clear and he will be starting his new job in just over a week!

  77. Facial Piercing?*

    So here’s my situation: I frequently speak in public about my work, and it has often led to job opportunities surfacing from someone who saw me speak and was impressed.

    I wear a small stud in my lower lip, which I don’t take out when I’m speaking. I also often have my hair dyed a non-traditional/unnatural color, and speak frequently with my hair like this.

    A while back, I was contacted by someone who’d seen me speak about a potential job he was hiring for (as hiring manager, not a recruiter). He offered to meet for an informal coffee to tell me more about the position and see if I’d be interested. I went to the coffee, crazy hair and lip ring and all.

    I ended up being interested and putting in my resume, and then it comes time to go to the interview – and it was only after I got there that I remembered my piercing and wondered whether I should have taken it out. I ended up leaving it in partly because he’d already seen me with it in, and it seemed a little bit…contrived? to take it out for the interview. Almost like I’d be trying to pull one over on him or pretend I don’t have the piercing when he’s plainly seen me with it every prior time he’s seen me. OTOH, I could see making the argument that taking it out for the interview even though I wore it every other time similar to wearing a suit to the interview even though I wasn’t wearing a suit any other time. Except that just doesn’t strike me as being the same – I choose my clothes every day , but while technically the piercing is removable, I think of it more as a fixed part of my body as opposed to something I decide to wear on a daily basis. I change the jewelry in it maybe 2-3 times a year, tops, so it feels a lot more like I’m hiding something to take it out than it feels like I’m hiding something to dress up one day.

    Ever since I’ve always wondered what the right choice was. In a situation where the people you’re interviewing with have all met you before and seen you with your facial piercing every time they’ve seen you, should you still take it out for the interview?

    1. Ad Astra*

      That depends on how important this piercing is to you. Would you be willing to take out your piercing every day for work if you got the job? If so, it might have helped your chances to take it out for the interview.

      If you think you might grow to resent being asked to take out the piercing, you’ve saved yourself some time by showing up with it in. If it’s a problem for the company, you may not get the job, but it clearly wasn’t a fit anyway. It’s also possible that they don’t care about the piercing, and you’ve saved them the surprise of seeing you in it on your first day at work.

      I get the impression (and someone should chime in if I’m wrong) that a conservative office that cares a lot about appearance would be more put off by the unnaturally colored hair than by the piercing. So unless you were considering dying it back to brown or blonde or whatever for the job, this all may be a moot point.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I think the real question is, would you remove the piercing if your had to for the new job? It would be odd to take it out to interview then show up on the first day of work with it and say that you normally wear it every day.
      If you would consider removing it for the right job, I’d leave it out for the interview and ask directly about the policy on facial piercings. You can make your decision based on their response.

    3. ScottySmalls*

      I think you did the right thing. Thwe manager has already seen it and your hair. If he had a problem with those things I assume he would have told you when you had coffee. He might have low key said it by asking that you dress conservatively ( I imagine a pointed look at your hair/lip). But if he left it to your own judgment, I don’t think he would have been put off by it at the interview. Plus if you had done this and gotten the job, then they might expect you to take it off at the job, which doesn’t sound like you’d be willing to do.

      One last thought, you’re interviewing them as well, so if they have a negative reaction to this, now you know upfront.

    4. Melissa*

      I think you should leave it in.

      This is not exactly the same, but I’ve had the same question about straightening my hair. I’m black with naturally kinky hair, and I’ve gotten advice from a few random people that I should straighten my hair before interviews. One of my black friends told me an interviewer told her once that her kinky hair was “not professional.” But…this is the way my hair grows out of my head; I’m not straightening it every day for work, so why the heck should I straighten it? If someone doesn’t want to hire me because I have kinky hair, I don’t want to work there.

      So I think it may be similar in this case…if you take it out, you may be setting up the expectation that you don’t have facial piercings. If you leave it in, you might lose out on a few job offers, but they may be jobs that would’ve expected you to remove your facial piercing for work every day (or permanently). Unless you’re willing to do that, I think you should go as you are. This is doubly true if they’ve already seen you speak with the facial piercing and the blue hair, because they’ve already seen your unconventional appearance – twice! as you were speaking, and then for coffee – and were still interested enough to interview you.

      1. I'm a Little Teapot*

        Of course in your friend’s case there are some pretty gross racial implications which there wouldn’t be for facial piercings. I suspect the EEOC would frown on an interviewer telling black candidates their natural hair texture was “not professional,” or dinging them for it. Ugh.

        1. zora*

          The military didn’t see anything wrong with telling black women they had to completely change their hair/hairstyles to look like white hair in order to be ‘regulation.’ :o(

    5. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

      I think you did good by leaving it in.

      On the other hand, I think you’re over-thinking the matter a bit, in that – right or wrong – I (and I think I am not alone in this) tend to think of piercings as ‘optional’, ie, one day someone might wear one, another day they might not wear it – it’s not unlike wearing different pairs of shoes. I understand that you feel differently about it – but to me, whether you wore it or not would have no special significance. I suspect that most people who aren’t into piercings would agree with me.

      1. Facial Piercing*

        With many piercings it’s actually not very optional – if I leave my lip ring out for more than a day or two the hole gets tight and I can barely get jewelry back into it. As others alluded to above, that’s a big reason why I’m not willing to take it out for work – if I were to forget to put it back in one evening when I get home, by the time I get home on the second day it could be closed up. Unlike ear lobes, body piercings in areas with a lot of blood vessels are not really a thing you sometimes wear or sometimes don’t wear – you either wear the jewelry or you lose the piercing for good, which is why to me it feels more like a part of my body than something I choose daily. I definitely recognize that people who aren’t into piercings often lack that kind of knowledge, which is why I worried they might consider taking it out more akin to putting on an interview suit as opposed to the way I see it – concealing a (semi-)permanent body modification.

  78. Beezus*

    I got some help this week with writing a macro to automatically run one of my big 2x/day reports on a schedule. Then, I took what I learned from that session, and wrote my own macro to automatically email the report results out to my audience, so that’s something off my plate! It was only 10 minutes twice a day, but it was pretty time-sensitive and it’s nice to not feel like I’m chained to the clock for that particular task.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I love macros. They make my life so much more efficient … I only know how to write extremely basic ones myself, though… I usually just use the recorder!

      1. Beezus*

        Me too, before this! The guy who was helping me was really knowledgeable with VBA scripts, though. I learned there’s a way to do almost anything you want to do, and there are TONS of good resources out there with sample code that you can revise to fit your need. That, and how to test what I write step by step so I can troubleshoot issues.

        I’m now working on a code to automatically save a stripped-down (no formulas or formatting) copy of the report elsewhere, with the date in the filename, so I have an easy reference if there are questions about what it looked like in the past (all I email is a link, and the file writes over with each update – it’s a HUGE amount of underlying data, so saving daily copies of the full thing is not really feasible.)

  79. I'm a Little Teapot*

    I have a job! I start Monday. It’s not in my field, and it’s a pay cut from my last two positions, and the interviewers warned me it would be “very repetitive,” but there’s some possibility of it going perm if I do well and it seems to be a company that trains people properly rather than throwing them to the wolves.

    I’m also concerned about the commute. It looks like it’s going to take an hour and a half each way or so, due to slow bus routes. (I don’t have a car.) I’m hoping to be able to get some writing projects done during this time, but I’m bad at concentrating in noisy/busy environments where I’m interrupted a lot. Does anyone have any tips for during-commute productivity?

        1. I'm a Little Teapot*

          Thanks – good idea!

          I’m also going to be getting a smartphone very soon (finally) so I’ll have something to work on that’s easy to use standing up, if the buses end up being crowded. (Now if only I could figure out how to type on a touchscreen without constant mistakes.)

          And the place where I change buses has a bakery, so if I’m feeling averse to getting up in the morning I’ll bribe myself with goodies.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I don’t really have a lot to add aside from seconding headphones.
      Checked out your tumblr- very funny!!

  80. Sarrow*

    I applied for an internal job opening in a different department. I had an interview last week and have been offered the position, which I have accepeted. As per company policy, my current manager is aware that I applied for this position and he knows that I had an interview. He doesn’t know yet that I have accepted the position.

    The hiring manager has submitted the request to HR and I’m supposed to receive an official offer. I was not planning on telling my current manager until I received the official offer.

    The thing is that I am scheduled to have my mid-year performance review with him next week. If I don’t receive the offer before that time, I’m not sure what I should tell him. If he doesn’t bring it up, I won’t say anything. But if he does, should I just say that I’m still waiting to hear back from the other group? I don’t anticipate there being any issues with the offer, but I would feel more comfortable once I have the official offer.

    Also, there are organizational changes going on within my deparement along with a strong possibility of layoffs. So in light of those activities, I’m not sure if I have some responsibility to proactively notify my manager I’m planning on leaving the group.

    1. Swarley*

      Eh, I’d treat this like I would an external offer. You wouldn’t notify your current manager until you had everything finalized with the new employer, right? I think it’s fine to just say that you’ve interviewed but are waiting for the official word.

      1. Sarrow*

        Thanks. That’s what I was thinking too. I just wasn’t sure if there would be any good reason to break the news early.

  81. nicolefromqueens*

    Are acrylic nails professional? What about non-traditional colors, specifically light pink and/or gray?

    1. Ad Astra*

      I think acrylics are fine as long as they’re not too long or pointy, though I prefer gel manicures myself. Non-traditional colors will be a problem in some extremely conservative offices, but I think you can get away with light pink and gray almost anywhere. Nail “jewelry,” crazy neon colors, and talon-like nails are all definitely unprofessional. Anything in between will depend on your office culture.

      I think “fun” colors and glitter are fine, but not everyone does.

    2. Laurel Gray*

      With acrylic, it is all about length, shape and polish colors. Light pink is okay as long as it isn’t loud. Same with a gray, fine without too much shimmer. If you do acrylic as just an overlay or with tips make sure you are getting regular fills. Grown out nails tend to be noticeable and look bad. Also, keep nails short and to the nailbed – either square, rounded or that in-between “squoval”. I would avoid the pointy/claw like shapes that are kind of popular as they do not look good in a professional environment. FWIW, even when I worked in business casual offices I still always made sure my nails looked professional. Nails have a way of being a topic of discussion when they stand out.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Light pink and gray are “non-traditional”? OK, OK– maybe the gray. :) I think acrylics are fine as long as they’re not too long and pointy, as Ad Astra said, and as for most things, it depends on the industry. I love getting my nails done with “unusual” colors like funky blues and purples (and grays, for that matter), and no one bats an eyelash. I probably wouldn’t go neon because that calls a little too much attention to the nails, but I think fun nail colors for women are like fun ties for men– gives a little pop of personality in a sea of neutral corporate wear. (My office is decidedly non-corporate, but I’m also not a particularly fashion-forward person, so I don’t wear bright colors and patterns– my nail colors are my way to be a little less preppy.)

    4. super anon*

      i currently have long, stiletto shaped hard gel extensions on my nails, that are currently painted neon orange with studs and chevrons on my accent nail. i asked if they would be appropriate/professional for this office before getting them done, and was told they’d be fine.

      i tend to think any nail polish colour can be professional, as long as it isn’t chipped or ratty looking, but i may be a bit more open minded in this regard than most.

    5. Elizabeth*

      This is absolutely industry-specific.

      I wear acrylics and have for over a year. It’s the only way that I don’t have broken & peeling nails, thanks to damage I did to them as a kid. I get a French gel manicure over the acrylics with an extremely pale pink polish. When I did just gel manicures, they cracked in under 24 hours. I’ve got colleagues who have much darker polish on natural nails.

      I only can do this in my industry because I don’t do direct patient care. If I touched patients, I would not be allowed to have false nails.

      I consider nails to be much like makeup: I do it for me, and I don’t particularly care what others do, as long as it doesn’t affect the ability to do the job. False eyelashes or mascara always getting in your eyes? Get rid of them. The acrylics affecting your hand shape when you type? They should be gone.

  82. BRR*

    How do people handle the psychological aspect of moving to a job that pays less?

    I interviewed for a position today which earlier in the week during a phone screen they stated the salary was in the mid $40s while I make $53K (it’s really nice being able to openly talk about salary). She mentioned seeing if there was wiggle room but I feel like it’s a huge downgrade going below $50K (although if there is a new threshold for exempt employees that would help me).

    But the things I need to consider: I’m in prospect research and this is an annual giving position. So I have some great skills to bring but a track record of soliciting donation is not one of them. I want to transition to a front line fundraising role so I’m not sure how many chances I will have. After learning more about the position it seems like I’d need to put in a lot more hours than I currently do. Also that I’m on a PIP. It’s going well but not so well I should stop looking and not so bad I should accept anything (I was hoping I’d be less in purgatory by now).

    It just is hard feeling like I’d be accepting a demotion with more work.

    1. Kay*

      I took a 25% pay cut with my current job. I went from an urban to a rural area and from an organization with a huge endowment to one struggling. It was worth it for the opportunity, because I loved the new org, the new job, and the location. I didn’t mind at all. I planned accordingly.

      Salary $ alone is not a demotion. It’s about the work level and the position. Salary level depends on so many things that often have nothing to do with skill level or job responsibility, especially in nonprofits.

      But then, I say that having never made more than $50k…maybe I should switch to development!

      1. BRR*

        Development is where the money is at ;)

        The problem is I’m not changing area so COL is the same and it actually seems like more work.

  83. Mints*

    Hello hive!

    So, I was laid off about a month ago. I didn’t post it on here, because the shock wore off pretty quickly, and I jumped into “get down to business and find a new job” mode. Things have been going well. Decent. I’ve been somewhat choosy in what I’m looking for. I’ve had maybe one in person interview per week, and maybe three phone calls per week. I’ve been asking for a range of my old salary to old+5k.

    Annnnnd then my old job offers me my same job again. They had downsized the team, and someone is now leaving. I’m super undecided. My prospects right now are: I’ve had two in person interviews that went well, with a possibility of a second interview soon. Three interviews scheduled that I’m not sure about.

    My old job was fine. I really liked the work and job function. My coworkers lateral to me were great. My manager was not great, but I was good at avoiding him. The future prospects at the company are almost zero, but I’m junior enough that sitting for another year to build up experience isn’t a bad idea.

    I know I need to make a decision, but internet strangers can be helpful. (I’ve asked for a week to think it over.) Help me make a decision?

    1. Swarley*

      I’d look at it by taking out the layoff altogether. So if you hadn’t been laid off, would the “not great” manager and any other negative factors push you to job search? Or was the layoff the sole reason? If you would have happily stayed at your job otherwise, I think that might be your answer. Good luck!

      1. Mints*

        Kind of… the person who’s leaving helped my overall liking of the job. If she had left (while I was there) I think I would have started passively looking. I was also afraid of looking like a job hopper, and getting laid off gave me an easy out

    2. HM in Atlanta*

      If you don’t think you really want to go back to old employer, ask them if they’d just like you to contract with them until they find a replacement. That will give you some income while you continue to interview.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      I’d take it and continue looking once you’re re-employed. It will make you a more attractive candidate.

      You probably wouldn’t even need to acknowledge the break in employment in your resume, since it’s been only a month. And it’s easy to explain why you’re looking — downsizing and financial troubles.

      2. Mints*

        I think this is my game plan right now. I’m trying to kick some places I’ve interviewed with into giving me an offer this week (and I’m dragging my feet with layoff-company), but otherwise I’m thinking I’ll take it. I’ll be able to be SUPER choosy in applying.

        I had heard whispers that this was happening, and I was weighing this job versus jobs I was applying for, and was very “meh.” But now I’m weighing an actual job offer versus not-quite-job-offers and I’m leaning towards yes for now.

        Sigh. I should be excited! I’m very overwhelmed.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          PS, don’t feel like you are under ANY moral obligation to stay for any length of time once they hire you back. It would be one thing if you accepted a job offer from a new employer and continued to hunt, but you’re in a different situation because they laid you off first.

  84. Angela Vickers*

    I’m looking for advice and wondering if anyone else has had a slow-start in their career? How did you accept that you were “behind” your peers and not become an envious monster?

    I’m in my late-20s and FINALLY working in my field, I’ve only been in the field for 6 months. While I enjoy what I do when I’m doing it, when I’m not at work I just feel sort of embarrassed. Like I’m in my late-20s and my job just doesn’t feel “good enough” compared to what others my age are doing? For example, I was talking to my father and he mentioned that a cow0rker’s daughter is around my age and makes $90,000 after taking some one year occupational/physical therapy course and his son is my age and works as a city planner, etc. Ugh, and I just think that what I’m doing isn’t good enough. My job isn’t prestigious, but… I enjoy it? I don’t know how to accept the fact that I enjoy it vs. what I think other people think.

    1. Ad Astra*

      Comparison is the thief of joy.

      If you like what you do, talk about all the things in your job that make you happy, the projects you’re excited about, the funny thing your coworker said, etc. It’s great that other people are swimming in money and jet setting to Europe and yelling “Buy! Sell! No, buy!” into their phones all the time. That doesn’t mean your job and your life aren’t good enough.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      No offence, but I thought you were going to say that you were 40.
      I think folks who get their careers going in their 20’s are lucky and a bit rare. I used to feel the same way, but I realized that I was focusing on one or two success stories when there were so many peers who were worse off than I. Also, there is so much more to life than a career. Your self-worth is more than a job. I was 33 before I figured that one out.

      1. Angela Vickers*

        Haha, no offense taken. I think you’re onto something though. I’m really focused on success stories and people who are in completely different fields than me, doing jobs that I would never want to do in a million years. Then I get angry at myself for not wanting to be those things, it doesn’t really make any sense, does it?

        People in my field “love” their jobs and never seemingly leave (lol), so I feel lucky when I look at my cohort and realize that I have a full-time job! I’m not sure if I love my field enough to do it “FOREVER” (you never know), but right now it’s fine.

    3. AVP*

      I’m sure the people being referenced have some other thing that they’ve totally insecure about. My career got started pretty early (although, still felt late at the time! I was 23.) But when I was in my mid-to-late 20’s I was reeeeeallly insecure that everyone around me seemed to be entering into marriage-bound relationships or having kids and I was single. I felt like they were all looking at me and thinking, what is wrong with HER? Then I got into one of those, realized I don’t think that about anyone else and if people truly like you, they don’t think that. And then I found something else to be insecure about to replace it!

      So basically…do you and screw everyone else. They probably aren’t noticing your insecurities anyway.

      1. Kai*

        Yeah, this. Everyone’s got something. I get paid pretty well and work at a prestigious institution, but would gladly leave and even take a small pay cut if it meant doing work I enjoyed.

    4. Laurel Gray*

      Are you on social media?

      I have found that social media really gives a pretty skewed view of success. The people I know/met “in real life” only play up the positives in their life. Social media is the playground to brag. I never see people announce a lay off or late payment but a new pair of designer shoes? New luxury car? A trip overseas and the first class upgrade? Oh, there’s a post for that! It can easily make you feel like you aren’t doing much. One thing to really take into account is that while you admit you focus on success stories, you don’t know the WHOLE story. Nepotism isn’t dead, people still get ahead by being the daughter/niece/cousin/in-law of someone high up on the food chain. Some people fall into windfalls like inheritance from an elder relative who passed on, lawsuit settlement or winning the lotto. It is easier to see the tangible things or hear the vague details that we equate to success and never get the full story. Continue to see your glass as half full and define your happiness on your terms.

      1. Ginger ale for all*

        I agree with you about the social media. I usually try to post the positive and rarely post the negative stuff. It really has to be a major negative event if I post about it on facebook.

      2. Melissa*

        Plus, people make stuff look better on Facebook than it really is. I have a close friend who recently got a new job and is moving back to a desirable city. She confided in me that she’s actually really unhappy about it because it’s not where she wants to be professionally or personally. But it looks great as a status update!

      3. Ad Astra*

        I tend to tell it like it is, or honestly maybe even whine more than necessary, on Twitter. But on Facebook and Instagram, it’s pretty much exclusively good news and positive statements. But I’m one of those weirdos who has an easier time being honest with strangers than with friends and family.

    5. literateliz*

      I’m still working on this myself, but it helps me to remember that this is a very natural thing to struggle with, I think. (I’m 28 and an editorial assistant in San Francisco, so add that layer of inequity to it.) I’ve gotten better in the last few years at not comparing myself to others and at pinpointing what I really value (frugality, building a family, helping authors to find their voices) vs. what my peers value (a beautiful apartment in the Mission? artisanal bacon? the hot new app? IPOs?*), and I feel like I’m growing a little bit as a person every time I deal with these things maturely, so I’m able to be proud of that, at least.

      *Not to slam on other young San Franciscans, just that these things are so ever-present that it does take a little bit of mindfulness to remember that I truly don’t give a shit about them even when they’re all some of my friends talk about. Late 20s is still young enough to not be 100% settled in who you are as a person, so it’s normal to try a lot of different things and values on for size as a way of figuring out what’s really important to you.

    6. Regina*

      I’m in my late 20s, studied this field I’m in for 6 years, and now FINALLY three years after completing my masters degree, I’m no longer stringing together 3 part-time jobs at once and have a stable job in my field that is actually pretty boring most days and pays…wait for it…25k per year! Plus high deductible health insurance and no retirement benefits!

      On Facebook, it looks like I moved to an amazing city to take an amazing opportunity that is a great stepping stone to the kind of job I eventually want.

      The real story is somewhere in the middle. I did get to move to a city I really wanted to live in, but I can barely afford to live here on my salary. My job does use my skills and is a good addition to my resume, it just doesn’t challenge me as much as I would like.

      I imagine MANY others who look like they have glamorous lives, are dealing with problems similar to mine, or have other problems of their own. I wouldn’t compare yourself to anyone else. Just keep working towards your goals and things will be better with time…at least we can all hope! :) Also, people exaggerate a lot. I know someone with a doctorate in physical therapy and she doesn’t even make 90k! So I doubt there are positions that pay that much after 1 year of study, or more people would be doing that. If there is such a position, she sounds like she just got really lucky.

    7. Melissa*

      I’m 29 years old and I just accepted my first full-time job offer. I was in graduate school and a postdoc for the last 7 years. I have friends who started grad school after me and started working full-time jobs with benefits before me. And of course my friends who started their master’s in the same department with me when I started my PhD were long gone and most have moved onto their second or third positions. My own little brother, two years my junior, bought a house and a car before me. I hated it; it was so frustrating. I felt like I was in a state of extended adolescence, and it was even worse because they would ask me to go do X and I’m like “ain’t nobody got money for that!”

      BUT one thing you have to realize is this is all a result of what I call the Facebook effect, or what is really just second-hand information. People filter out all of the bad stuff – the struggles, the late nights, the crying, the frustration with their own jobs and careers – and you only see the happy outside. The information you got about your coworker’s kids is filtered through two sources (your dad’s coworker and your dad). The coworker’s son could really want to be a teacher and hates his job. His daughter could be embarrassed by what she does.

      Moreover, there are probably people who are jealous of YOU and what you do. I can’t tell you how many times I have felt like a complete mess and then had someone randomly tell me that they think I’m so put together (WTF?!) Also, I’m in this really odd place where now some friends are going back to get their PhDs, or are asking me if they should go back (no! run away!) so the situation is a bit flipped. Short version: don’t compare your insides to other people’s outsides.

      Also…you enjoy your job, and that’s what’s important. Some days I berated myself for not just getting an MA in [fill in lucrative career here], but over time I had to realize that I would’ve hated that because…it’s not me. I liked what I did; it was interesting work (most of it, anyway). So if you enjoy your work it doesn’t matter, as long as you can pay your bills and enjoy yourself the way you want to.

    8. TheLazyB*

      I am 40 next year and I just finally took a job that isn’t admin/secretarial (nowt wrong with admin/secretarial, but I never wanted to – fell into it after dropping out of uni and couldn’t quite figure out how to do something else.

      15+ years later I finally have a job I’ll be able to progress in.

      And I took a slight pay cut for it.

      Not everyone is a mega earner.

      Some people are late bloomers.

  85. Catherine*

    I have a baby and I pump at work twice a day for 45 minutes each time (I know some people do this in less time, but for reasons it just takes my body 45 minutes). I work while I pump. Does anybody have any tips on staying focused while I’m doing this? I have to remote into my desktop and the connection is crazy, painfully slow. To the point that I cannot see what I am typing and have to wait for it to “catch up.” It makes it hard for me to seriously get into anything I’m doing. So any advice on staying focused would be very helpful!

    1. just laura*

      Can you save some brainless or offline tasks for those windows? Or even phone calls? What kind of situation are you in that requires a remote login? Can you use a mobile device or solemn get else?

      1. Catherine*

        Thanks for the comment, just laura! I wish I had some offline tasks, but my job is all online (tech company). I have a desktop PC at my cube so I log in remotely from the room where I pump. It is truly painful how slow the remote login is. I might try your suggestion about working from my mobile, though!

        1. EduNerd*

          Sorry if this is obvious/already tried, but can you talk to your company about this? It seems like something they’d have an incentive to fix, since it’s impacting your productivity.

  86. ScottySmalls*

    So I had an interview on the 1st and I believe the interviewer said they’d be doing interviews the rest of the week and the following and call in people for 2ND interviews this week. Should I email and ask for an updated time line? I can’t quite remember if she said this week or if she just meant sometime after. Does that sound like I wasn’t paying attention?

  87. Jenna Maroney*

    When I’ve had jobs in the past that involve working with kids, people in office environments have often acted like there was something very impressive about me, which I thought was a little silly since I was just doing what I liked. This has only been strengthened after 7 months of full-time office life – despite a set-up that’s prettt great aside from not being interested in my actual work (very relaxed, with coworkers I like) I feel like I am going out of my mind and am sure my mental health would be suffering by now if I didn’t know I were going into my last month. But people do this all the time and some of them even like it! The world is diverse and amazing! Basically today I’m just appreciating the principle of It Takes All Kinds, and being grateful I’ll be back in my kind’s world before long.

  88. A Hedgehoggie*

    Here’s my situation:
    I recently received my annual review, and was totally blown away by my boss’s negative rating of my “performance.” I was given a 1.9 out of a 2.0 (anything lower and I get written up). Why? He said I don’t talk enough to the student workers in our department (I work at a college) and that it’s obvious I don’t like one of my coworkers. He said I’m “isolating myself” and that “in the spirit of collaborative teamwork” blah-di-blah I need to correct this.
    I’m flabbergasted because he never said a single word to me about this and he claims the problem started in JANUARY.
    Two points: 1) It’s HIM I don’t talk to enough. He talks non-stop about himself, his hobbies, his philosophies, what’s wrong with kids today, etc. and I’ve started not turning around when he launches into one of these diatribes.
    2) The coworker to whom he refers is a total asshat whose father is a muckety-muck at this institution. I notice the other person in our department (a peer) doesn’t make conversation with this person either, but Muck Jr. is now the boss’s New BFF. I was also told I have to share my desk with Muck Jr. and spend several hours a day at an uncomfortable work station that is causing me back problems.
    I’m pretty disgusted with this job because of total boredom, lack of opportunity and a weird schedule. I’ve started chatting with everyone and putting on my game face. But I’m just wondering what you folks think of this. Allison says it’s not good practice for a boss to not mention problems until a review. I honestly feel I am being punished for #1 and possibly #2.
    What do you all think? Other than quitting, is there anything I can do? Is my boss a jackhole?

    1. fposte*

      You’re right that this shouldn’t be news at a review. Not enough information to know if boss is a jackhole, but it doesn’t sound like there’s anything to do other than socialize more as instructed or ignore the instructions and accept the consequences. (Do you know what would help the workstation not be bad for your back, and have you asked for that?)

      Mostly, it sounds like you’re fed up with the job, which you yourself say; I think it’s quite likely that’s coming out there sometimes too. And being that sick of a job is a sign it’s time to start looking, because fed up is a tough stage to reverse whether it’s justified or not.

  89. JennyFair*

    Several months ago I posted asking for help in answering ‘why did you leave your last job’ in interviews (I’d been fired for escalating an ethical issue, and was contractually obligated not to discuss it). I wanted to thank you all for your help. I only had one interview, and was given the job, and the interviewer never asked–but it was less stressful knowing I was prepared! After I’d been working for him for a couple months, one day he said, ‘Oh, I never asked you why you left…’ and I just stated that I had an ethical concern that my boss and his boss didn’t share, and was let go. He said that was too bad, and then never brought it up again.

    1. K-Anon*

      I wouldn’t mind reading some of the good answers you received. I was let go from my job last month due to bringing up a sexism issue with my boss. I’m so nervous to interview now because I’m worried that I’ll be plonked at as a problem employee despite a good track record at that company.

  90. AdAgencyChick*

    Pet peeve of the week: people who don’t understand that trust has to be earned.

    No, candidate to replace my dearly departed boss, I’m not going to answer your question about whether I’m thinking of leaving the company with complete candor. Duh.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Yup. Several of us were interviewing this guy at the same time so I totally deflected and thought, “BAHAHAHAHAHA!” in my head.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Heh. I’ve had that question once too. It wasn’t even that I didn’t trust the asker, but that professionalism requires caution when talking to coworkers. Nobody sane answers that question honestly unless the honest answer is like “I love my job and will never leave ever.”

  91. Speed Service*

    So, I was just offered a job for a company I’m incredibly excited about, and for a job that, after interviewing, is even more unique than it was on paper. I’m stoked to start.

    My question is, should I be concerned how fast this all happened? The recruiter explained very early on that it was going to be a speedy process, and that candidates had to be immediately available (or able to give no more than a 2 weeks notice). True to her word I had a phone screening the day after emailing her, then 3 days later a Skype interview, and then 4 days after that an in person interview with the company itself. My in person interview was yesterday morning. I received a call that afternoon (4pm) vocally offering the job to me, and then later still (7pm that evening) I was given a written offer.

    All in all… I’m still excited about the job, the proposed start date is August 3rd and they want a response by end of business day today. I’m personally ready to sign the paper work and go for it, but now I’m curious if this is a red flag at all? I’ve never in my life seen a process go this fast.

    Thanks for the opinions!

    1. fposte*

      It doesn’t sound crazily fast, just super-efficient. Have you had a chance to ask what you needed to ask and see what you needed to see? If yes, then I see no reason for the process to discourage you from accepting.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Depends on the company’s need, and the industry. If they need someone fast because the role is important, they’ll push the process.

    3. GOG11*

      Unless they push you to give an unreasonably short notice period for your current job, I wouldn’t see this as a red flag. Searches can be expedited by things that are in no way an indication of the company (for instance, a search I was recently involved in was expedited due to the current employee falling unexpectedly seriously ill and unable to continue in the role). As long as they’ve been organized in the search, and there are no other red flags, I think you’d be okay.

    4. T3k*

      Depends on the company. I interviewed for a company a month ago that was well known for being this speedy based on glassdoor reviews of them (I only made it to 2 interviews, but they have 4 interview stages and some said they’d get all of them in within 2 weeks).

    5. Speed Service*

      well, this pretty much clears my conscious. There were no red flags previously, I think Amber Rose is right, it’s more because the job is important, and the team happened to lose 3 people at once. (I asked, 2 were promoted and 1 left the company)

      Anyway, I think I’ll accept! :D

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Nope, not unusual. My first proper job out of college interviewed me on a Wednesday, did references/background check Thursday and offered me the job on Friday and I started the Wednesday after that. Actually, all of my jobs expect one had me start within a week or so of the initial interview. It’s not uncommon. Congrats and good luck!

    6. Ashley K.*

      I’ve had two job interviews that went fast: one went from phone screen to interview to offer in just over a week. The other went from phone screen to interview to offer in *3 days*.

      If they really need to fill a vacancy, and they like you for the role, they’ll get through it quickly. :)

      Congrats!

  92. Steve G*

    Urgh I got a job referral from a former coworker. The job is way, way below my level. I am seriously confused. Not to mention that the company has horrible glassdoor ratings and every single one also mentions low pay. I am not sure how to handle this.

    The paranoid part of me wonders if this is just a ploy to get a copy of my resume. The less paranoid part of me feels that this is just a continuation of all of the times this person acted like people weren’t working hard when they were drowning. He would probably think some of the things on my resume were BS – not because I didn’t do them, but because he was always oblivious to how much work I did and at what level it was. I think its time to take this person off of my list as a reference (they were one of the senior most person in my office for a while, though I didn’t report to him).

    1. Ten*

      Maybe they get a referral credit and are sending it out to everyone? I’ve gotten a few of those from “friends”

      1. Steve G*

        I would like this to be true. They texted me and it was a custom message though…I’m just dreading saying “no.” And the sad part is I might have said yes, but I know the person is going to turn it into a resume-editing session (and they aren’t always right when it comes to those things!)

    2. Colette*

      Just tell him it’s not what you’re looking for right now. You don’t owe him your resume or anything more than a polite response.

  93. Al Lo*

    I need product recommendations! I work for a music organization, and we’re working on getting our music library into a digitized, searchable database. I need to find the best cloud-based software — most of the use is in our office, but we do need off-site access. I’ve been researching for months, and haven’t found anything right yet, so I’m hoping the hive brain can help me!

    * 5000+ records to store
    * Each entry has about 25 data fields
    * This is the biggie: I need to be able to attach files to each entry — we need the ability to attach video, audio, and PDF. My workaround right now is to store the files elsewhere and have a field for the link to the file, but it would be better to have the file attached itself. However, we’ll need about 500 GB of storage space attached to the database.
    * And… reasonably priced. Non-profit pricing would be ideal.

    Right now, I’m looking at an Access database uploaded to our Sharepoint site, but Access has limits on file attachments. That’s the real sticking point.

    Any help?

    2. Steve G*

      Salesforce is too expensive? That can be used to store documents via attaching them to the accounts directly.

      Also, I’ve set up a database via hostgator.com, you would need to call them and ask about the attachments though. I used it for a SQL database I could download/upload data from Excel and other programs into, but I remember it had other features.

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      God no, please for the love of all that is holy please do not use access it’s horrendous and if you want the database to hold 500 GB of data you really can’t use such a Micky mouse product.

      Do you really need it to be cloud based or can you look at other forms of remote access such as a web front end or a VPN set up?

      I just did a Google search for cloud based nosql content management and one of the top results was a firm called cognizant I’ll post a link below. I’m not see if it’s what you’re looking for but I hope it helps.

    6. Al Lo*

      Thanks for the suggestions!

      How many people will be accessing it depends on how it’s set up, to some extent. Right now, the bulk of the use is in-office, with a couple of weeks of heavy off-site use (by about 3 people) during the summer. If it’s available off-site, though, there are off-site staff members who could benefit from having access throughout the year.

      I did overestimate a bit — currently, there are about 100 GB of attachments, so 500 GB is a bit ambitious for the next few years! We’ll probably grow our library archives by 5 GB/year at the rate we’re going, so 200 GB would last us quite a while, I think.

      1. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

        Okay – this sounds like relatively light use to me (I was thinking you might need to respond to hundreds or thousands of requests an hour).

        I know it’s not addressing the software question you asked, but I’d seriously recommend you look into (say) the Synology line of devices. I’ve got 32TB of NAS online at home, it works great even over the wireless router, we can have 4 people watching different videos at the same time with no buffering delays. If all you’ve got is maybe half a TB of data, you might even want to consider two or three redundant NAS units.

  94. Ella*

    Does anyone have any bright ideas on cycling to interviews, particularly in the summer? I don’t own a car so I’m always either busing or biking (or borrowing a car). My professional slacks are just a little bit too tight to be comfortable riding in. I have a “job interview skirt” that billows up when I try to cycle in it. Plus there’s the sweating factor. Sometimes I’ve brought my interview clothes with me and gotten there early enough to change in the bathroom beforehand, but I feel like if anyone sees me before the interview, in my cycling clothes, that’s potentially not great. (Also, walking into an interview with a backpack full of clothes, not great.)

    1. WriterLady*

      Do you have anything in the area that allows you to inquire about ride share or carpooling?

    2. AVP*

      For the skirt, have you tried the “Penny in Your Pants” trick? I’ll link to it below. It works with a lot of skirts if not all.

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        Well, I’ve heard of keeping a nickel between your knees but… couldn’t you do the same thing with a safety pin?

    3. TCO*

      I’ve encountered a similar situation and I try to scope out a nearby place in advance where I can change before walking into the office–coffee shop, library, anywhere with a public restroom. Then I just walk the remaining distance to the meeting.

      1. TCO*

        Oh, and when necessary I’ve packed my full interview outfit into some kind of business-professional big purse thingy . It looks better than a backpack. Maybe you can add a shoulder strap to something you own to make it bike-friendly?

    4. AnonAcademic*

      I just started cycling to work. I am a HUGE fan of this style of skirt for biking (I have it in 4 colors: http://www.modcloth.com/shop/skirts/bugle-joy-skirt-in-black). It is mid weight, wrinkle resistent, and the fabric is durable. I use a “bike garter” to secure it or wear leggings underneath.

      My advice f0r now would be to wear your job interview skirt with a bike garter + a tshirt on the ride and have a wrinkle resistent knit top + blazer to change into before the interview. Also touch up hair/makeup of course.

  95. Hazel Asperg*

    I passed my three-month probationary period, and so I am safely in a lovely job that I enjoy. Thanks to everyone over the past weeks for advice, encouragement and reassurance! I even told my managers that I have aspergers (part of the autism spectrum) and they barely blinked. So that’s good.

    I escaped retail! Yay!

    4. Tau*

      Congratulations! I’m really happy for you. :)

      (I’m another Aspie doing the “do I disclose don’t I disclose aaaah” dance re: new job, so it’s great to hear of a case of it going well!)

  96. MarieX*

    So I’ve been at my company for 11 years, always with excellent reviews. My production is stellar, several levels above what we’re supposed to do. I’m performing at the level of a staff member two pay grades above me. It’s about time that I’m anticipating getting a promotion (meaning a pay grade increase, my job wouldn’t change). My manager said that he intends to push for it, but he dropped the news on me that my attendance is an issue that’s come up. I asked what he meant, he said that I use too many of my sick days. Now, aside from the yearly cold/flu that we all get, I intermittently experience unpleasant physical consequences from a stomach surgery I had 6 years ago (management is aware of this). So I’m sure I do use more than the average of my sick time. But if I have the sick time allotted, and I need it, and I use it, I don’t see why I should be penalized for that. I understand that some less scrupulous staff might take advantage of sick days for not-sick reasons, but I’d ask the management to look at the rest of my workplace conduct to decide if I was the sort of employee who’d do that. I’m sure there have been days I could physically have worked when I didn’t feel well, but silly me, I thought that’s what sick days were for. The “taking too many sick days” issue was mentioned to me once several years ago, but not again since. I guess I didn’t realize how much this could impact my assessments. Thoughts? Other than this issue my management has always been very pro-me, and my manager indicated that the higher-ups were in favor of me getting the increase this year, but this factor could come in to play.

    1. fposte*

      You’re not going into the red on sick days, just using them? Then I’m with you–this isn’t fair. Simply saying this won’t work, of course, but you might raise it as “I was startled to hear that there was concern because I had used some of my work-allowed sick time. Can we talk about that in more detail? I’ve always taken great care to make sure productivity stays high, and we’ve been in agreement that my performance is excellent. Is there a ball you think I’m dropping when I’m sick [or “when I’m having some post-surgery problems,” if you’re going for maximum deflection] and that I could do better on?”

      1. MarieX*

        No, I’m just using my allotted days. There’s nothing I’ve dropped the ball on by being out sick, it hasn’t affected my productivity. The nature of my job means that nobody being out for a day here and there really makes a difference to anyone else.

        1. fposte*

          The point of asking isn’t because you think you’re dropping the ball, though–it’s to raise the question to your manager in order to either explore why your sick days are a problem (because it’s possible you don’t know, to be fair) or require your manager to deal explicitly with the incongruity here.

    2. YWD*

      My company doesn’t separate out sick time from vacation, it’s all a big bundle of PTO, so this may not specifically apply to your situation but I’ll share anyway in case it helps.

      I used to manage a person who was overall pretty good at his job. The issue I had with him was that he took a LOT of unplanned days off, usually because he was sick or one of his family was. Many of these days off coincided with important meetings we had planned with our senior management team which I then had to cover for him. He also supervised a team of people who needed an accessible supervisor, which again fell to me when he was out. The perception of my management, and they shared this with me many times, was that he was good at his job when he was there but not reliable.

      I’ll add that no one has any problems with scheduled time off and unplanned time off in general. We have a very generous PTO policy. In this case the person was using about 4 weeks of PTO all unplanned and it was quite disruptive because of the nature of his job.

      Are there any cases where you have had to miss something important because you were out? Those are the kinds of things that stick with senior management, especially if you don’t interact with them regularly. They may have incorrectly formed a similar impression of you as happened with my employee. I’d ask your manager for more specifics about why it’s an issue for him and if there is an impact of you being out that you are not aware of.

      1. MarieX*

        Being out has never caused me to miss anything important, that I know of. The nature of my job is such that my presence being important at a meeting or something is very rare (it might happen once every two months) and a situation in which one day away would negatively impact someone else is also very rare.

    3. Ad Astra*

      It is insane and unfair for them to penalize you for using PTO that is part of your compensation, especially if you’re using it for its intended purpose (being sick) rather than playing hooky. If they give you 10 sick days but only want you to take 6 sick days, they should only give you 6 sick days.

      If you want to push back, I would ask for specific examples of how your absence affects the quality of your work. My guess is your manager won’t have any, since you’re getting great reviews and producing at a high level. Be ready to point out your major successes and any kind of metric that quantifies how good you are at your job.

    4. BRR*

      I’m a little testy at the moment so I might just say, “Just to be clear, I’m not getting promoted due to a medical condition?”

    5. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      This kind of makes my head explode. What poor decision making on upper management’s part.

      In our world, we have just PTO, so everything is pooled. That has its own drawbacks but it avoids people having petty thinking about whether a sick day is legitimate or not, at least.

  97. Sally*

    I had an interview last week that went well, and was informed that the hiring manager would be checking my references this week. I spoke to one of my references who said he received an email from the HM today and that “they want a freakin’ book.” Apparently, it’s not just a few questions — it’s a whole page full, and they want very detailed answers for each of them. He is going to take time out of his weekend to answer the email, but he seemed a little irked about it and I’m absolutely mortified about the whole situation. Is this typical of most reference checks? The position I’m interviewing for is just administrative and not at the CIA or anything…

    1. fposte*

      Is this governmental? I just did one of those for somebody applying to a city job. I think they’re becoming more common, but I also think they’re stupid.

    2. WriterLady*

      I don’t know if this will help but I was a reference for a coworker and the thing to fill out was THREE PAGES! A LOT of the questions I couldn’t answer and I just said so on the document. I did my best with the other questions. I did my best to answer them and actually he ended up getting the job. And the company was just a publishing company in the area, not anything fancy.

      1. Tris Prior*

        +1. I served as a reference for an ex-coworker friend whom I sort-of supervised and had to write basically multiple essay question answers. Some of them were completely unrelated to the job we’d had – things like, “did this person follow safety requirements when handling hazardous materials?” I mean, there WERE a few science experiments in the fridge now and then…. I found it really bizarre, especially since this was over email and they really had no proof that I was who I said I was. I could’ve BS’ed the whole thing; honestly, SHE could’ve written the thing for me to copy/paste and how would they even have known?

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      There’s one company in my industry that is notorious for sending out Twenty Questions to references. If the company you’re looking at is anything like them, I’d have your reference call them and offer to have a 10-minute conversation instead, and that should be fine. The company I’m familiar with asks a bunch of questions, but the recruiters understand that the references are busy people who may not have time to fill out a questionnaire but can give equally if not more usable information quickly over the phone.

      Or you could initiate the conversation — just ask and say, “Fergus told me he’s happy to serve as a reference, but he prefers phone to email. Would it be okay if he set up some time to talk to you instead of completing the form?”

  98. WriterLady*

    Have you ever worked anywhere where there was so much tremendous pressure to attend company events? Many of the ones my company holds are at night and I cannot attend due to family obligations. Each time I explain this, my boss says, “It’s an important part of your position to attend…etc., etc.” I’m actually now looking around for an atmosphere that is less “happy hour/dinner/drinks/three hour long events into the late evening” kind of atmosphere, but in the mean time, I feel so freakin’ stuck.

    1. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

      Do you work in Korea?

      But seriously: I feel for you. I often get hit with this kind of thing when I travel on business – and after a full day at the office, the last thing I want or need is to party all night.

      I’m not sure there’s much you can do, except perhaps try to strike a balance? How often do these things come up?

      I get a slight feeling that your boss is bullying you into attending these things.

  99. Regina*

    What are some work-related things of value that you do at work when you have significant downtime? My job is really dead in the summer (it’s my first summer here), and I’m even the only one in my department a lot of days, which leads to really low morale. Normally I’m a very motivated and ambitious worker, but with no coworkers around and not enough work to stay busy all day, I’m feeling blah. I’m trying to push myself to do some extra beneficial things like taking work-related Lynda.com courses and reading new books related to my field (I have a masters degree) so I can stay current. Are there any other suggestions, and how do you stay motivated to do those things when no one else cares? Obviously I care about being a good employee and not wasting time, as well as bettering myself so I can land a more challenging job in the near future, but what else besides those thoughts can I use to motivate myself? For the record, I’ve asked to take on more responsibilities, but I’m the only person here in my position, and there’s just not any extra work that can fall to me.

      1. Regina*

        I will check out that website, thank you! I have taken some Lynda.com courses on programming and am trying to learn more. It’s not a necessary part of my job, but something that my boss and I both agree would be beneficial to the work that I do. Today I am going to start a new Lynda.com course on some Adobe software that I would like to be more proficient in. Again, it’s not a necessity, but something extra. It’s not something I’ll use a lot, but I might as well learn it since I have time, for the few times I will use it. I also saw some Lynda.com courses on general office practice stuff, being a better employee, etc.

        I can’t bring any hobbies to work unfortunately because the expectation is that I’ll be working the entire time I’m here. Even when there’s not much to do. Although I’m the only one in my department most days of the week, people from other departments drop in my office randomly, so it would look really bad if I were doing something not work-related. I do get to listen to podcasts while working often which helps pass the time.

        1. WriterLady*

          That’s cool you are taking that lynda.com classes! That helps me actually – I have a ton of downtime at work and would love to get more software knowledge about excel and even publisher.

          Also maybe Hulu and listening to videos in the background might help pass time. That’s what I do. I have a pretty dull day job and it helps to have entertaining background noise.

          1. Regina*

            Yes, I love Lynda.com! You do have to pay for it though, but I have an account through my job. When our IT department was super delayed on getting me training on a new remote management system, I took a Lynda.com course and taught myself to use it. I got major props for being so proactive! The Excel course is one on my list as well. I’d like to learn more of the complex things you can do with Excel.

            I don’t think I could do Hulu in the background. It would certainly help pass the time and I’d definitely multi-task while just listening and not actually watching, but I wouldn’t want that on my internet history at work. Radio/podcasts are acceptable at my job though and it’s assumed that you are working while listening. :)

    2. catsAreCool*

      Does anything need to be documented that isn’t? Should the documentation be improved. Where I’ve worked, the documentation can always be improved. Taking classes or reading up about things that can help you in your work also sounds like a great idea.

  100. super anon*

    etiquette on ccing bosses & directors on emails? i got a rather terse and overly formal email from someone in another unit that i had had a meeting with and had followed up on asking for clarification on an issue i was confused about (i’m only a month into my position, and i’m trying to get up to speed as fast as i can). she’s using wording like “please clarify with anyone you met with that you were not misled”, but i never claimed to be misled… i had gotten conflicting information from my directors and wanted to make sure i was the most up to date as possible and that i wasn’t the one getting information confused;;

    anyway, she sent me this email and cc’d her boss and the director on it… so i be worried i did something wrong? i don’t think we need to be involving directors when all i wanted was clarification! i would ask my own team how to respond, but everyone is away on business so i’m in the office alone until monday.

    have i mentioned i hate email? it’s so hard to figure out people’s minds and intentions via text.

    1. Sarrow*

      From my perspective, it seems this person is overreacting. Asking for clarification on an issue is totally normal, especially when you are first starting out at a job. I only copy my boss on emails if it’s something he absolutely needs to be aware of. Or sometimes he will ask me to copy him on an email chain if there is an issue that is getting escalated.

      I’m assuming the clarification email you sent was professional and courteous, so I don’t think you have anything to worry about.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      What a craptastic thing to do to a new employee.

      If you’re still upset (and I probably would be), asking your manager “what does this mean” isn’t out of line. That should produce reassurance that person X is a drama queen and to ignore her histrionics.

  101. chmur*

    So I had the weirdest interview this week.

    I had previously done two phone screens that were both pretty surface level, so I was expecting the in person interviews to be pretty in depth.

    I met with 4 people for half an hour each and I asked 75% of the questions in all 4 interviews. The first two came in and introduced themselves and their role and then said ‘So what questions do you have for me?’ Neither asked a single question.

    The last two were more back and forth, but I felt like I asked the majority of the questions.

    I assumed I would be meeting with the manager during the in person interviews, but it turns out she was one of the phone screens. I think anyway, they weren’t really clear. I thought it was so weird that she didn’t indicate she was the hiring manager during our conversation.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if they made me an offer, but the interview process was so strange, I don’t know if I would take the job.

    1. Steve G*

      I’ve complained about this happening this year in my job search on this blog before. It definitely is a trend/thing going on, my theory is that everyone has just gotten lazy about prepping for interviews because its an employers’ market.

      The worst I had was a young, seemingly inexperienced HR person who did this “so any questions” thing with me (without explaining the role or company, and they were late btw), and when I asked the 4th questions, after getting vague non-answers to the first 3, she said something like “well, usually people prepare for the interview and read up on us on the company website and in the media.”

      What? My question would not be answered by anything on their website or in the media or in their annual report (I looked at all of them!). I was so PO’d because I actually had wasted a lot of time preparing.

      Moral of the story for HR is…if you are going to put the onus on the candidate to lead an interview, 1) have some backup questions in case you get someone who isn’t good at leading, and 2) know the f**** role so you can actually answer the questions

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Steve G, you and I seem to have had parallel interview experiences. You’ve interviewed with a lot of start ups, yes?

        I’ve been looking for over a year now and a good portion of my interviews have been with start ups. The majority of them went something like the above. In a handful of them, I had to specifically ask about the company and role to find out more about them. Hell, some of them I didn’t learn any more than I had from looking the company up online. I found if I had to specifically ask about the company itself, it was not going to work out.

        1. Steve G*

          Yup, startups…I thought they’d be great for me because I came from the startup division of a larger company. What sticks out to me about startups are
          1) the fact that since they hire a lot of young people, they also have a lot of inexperienced people. I’ve had quite a few phone interviews with people who are about 24-26, who clearly had some professional development to do, but I guess they don’t have strong enough or experienced enough management to teach them how to polish their communication skills (to do things like get better at small talk and not having a bunch of awkward poses, or to get more general business acumen so they understand the jobs they are hiring for). I have interviewed with people who are very, very young and they don’t seem to get the connection between my past experiences and their roles, and they seem nervous to ask difficult questions (like about salary), and ask the wrong questions (such as, if its an operations role, asking about what I’m proud of or what I like to do at work, instead of more pertinent questions like “what can you do in Excel,” “what type of projects did you manage,” “how much money did you manage?” etc.). And in general, the interviews have flowed less like conversations and more like…well, interviews
          2) The fact that they all think their product is so unique and that there is a lot of technical information out there that you can read before the interview. Well, if your product is some sort of programming algorithm that places ads very precisely, that is proprietary, and as a non-employee, the most I can read are your very generic case studies that just repeat “X company increased our revenue 100X” over and over again
          3) A mismatch of job titles between fortune 1000 type companies and NYC startups. Not that a programmer isn’t a programmer….but what would have been considered an Operations Coordinator at my last few jobs gets called an Operations Manager or Director at a startup…so someone like me who didn’t know about that trend applies to the Operations Manager role thinking its at their level or even a promotion, only to dig deeper and find out that it is really a process job without a budget or people to manage. You see all sorts of titles like “Director of Client Success” or “Senior Manager of Customer Operations” with people who are really green and probably wouldn’t be able to handle the same job at a Fortune 1000 company. Title inflation gone rampant, which has led to me applying to many of the wrong jobs at startups.

          Wow I just gave myself quite a few reasons to give up on my moving-up-at-another-startup dream. Maybe you only do that once in life anyways? 2010 was my Ann-Hathaway-in-Devil-Wears-Prada year (can’t think of a male reference for that type of work craziness), maybe I am crazy for wanting to do it again.

    2. Powered by eight nuclear-heated Pratt and Whitney NP-4051 turbojets*

      Some companies will attempt to do a pre-screening that includes technical questions, and if you make it past that, the later interviewers are more interested in your ‘soft skills’: how well do you explain things? Will you fit in with the group? And it may be that you are being considered for more than one group.

      But yes, it seems odd that you didn’t get any technical screening.

  102. Anonymous for this*

    Ugh trying to negotiate with my company and they are giving me the run-around. It’s part-time shift work, I’m one of the most senior employees, my metrics are higher than any other part-timer’s, and I KNOW they give extra money to some people in my position. It’s been a month and the big boss is still ‘thinking about it’ I guess; I’m two paychecks into the new cycle; I just want out.

    My plan was to transition back into arts admin, and to have a new job by September (something with, gasp, benefits), but I haven’t been getting any interviews. I think a) I’ve been out of admin too long, b) these things just take time, and c) my cover letter is probably not the most exciting. I’m having trouble getting enthused about the whole thing–because I actually really enjoy my current job. It’s just not a sustainable lifestyle.

    I know that if I really want the money I should follow up, talk directly to the big boss, but actually I just want to leave. This company is not set up for the long-term retention of quality employees, and I just have to face that.

    1. Akwardly Anon*

      We must work for the same company. Spruce up your cover letter, maybe take another look at your resume, and keep searching. I wish you the best of luck.

    1. Malissa*

      If I’m using the word just is more of in a context of “just ducking do it.” For me it’s a word that conveys frustration and the fact that I really don’t want to talk about it anymore. It’s never about softening the message.

      1. kitten*

        Good point. I tend to use it as “I was just wondering if..”, or “If you could just…”

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Before even reading that article, I’d always go through my emails after writing them and remove my “just”s from things like: “could you just blahblahblah” and “I just wanted to follow up” “I just thought” “I was just wondering” … mainly because it seems like an unnecessary word in these sentences.

      1. Elkay*

        I’ve started doing that too, I write too many emails that start “Just following up” so I’m doing my best to edit the “just”s out before sending.

    3. Kelly L.*

      My only peeve with “just” is when people use it when making a really complicated food order. Like…they’re trying to downplay it, but it’s like “I’ll just have a half-soy half-caf double whip skinny mocha latte with an extra shot and no cup.”

      2. Steve G*

        Well to nitpick language a bit, I never understood “let me try” or “I’ll do,” as in “let me try the tomato grilled cheese” or “I’ll do a tomato grilled cheese.” It is not an experiment, and you’re not doing anything except sitting and eating.

        1. INFJ*

          Oh my God I just laughed so hard. My SO uses the “I’ll do….” all the time when we eat out and I always thought it was a little weird, glad to hear someone else doesn’t understand it either!

    4. Steve G*

      Yeah, I saw this. I hate when people, in meetings, go “I just want to ask” and after they get their answer, go “thanks, I just wanted to ask because…..,” and I’ve mostly seen women do this. Why care about whether other people think your question is dumb or not, just ask it?!

      1. Ashley K.*

        Those verbal tics — “I just had a question,” after they’ve been called on, “I just wanted to ask,” etc. — are nutty. We know you have a question! The panel’s open for questions! You raised your hand and were called on!

        It *is* a verbal tic, so I don’t hold it against anyone. I cringe inside every time all the same.

        1. Jennifer*

          I haaaaaaaaate “Can I ask a question?”
          (a) you just did
          (b) I can’t tell you no, now can I?

          Or “I have a QUICK question,” like that makes it better. Also, we have no quick questions here, so come on.

  104. Festival reality-maintenance*

    A friend of mine just pointed me at this rather interesting tool:

    https://tone-analyzer-demo.mybluemix.net/

    There’s a description here:

    http://www.fastcompany.com/3048761/tech-forecast/watch-your-tone-now-ibms-watson-can-detect-attitude-in-your-writing

    TL;dr: it’s not a joke. You can enter your own text and it will analyze what you’ve written and attempt to give you some kind of objective feel for what your ‘tone’ is. It looks like it will also attempt to help you modify your text to be more “appropriate” – honestly, I haven’t played with it much yet, but it’s sorta fun.

    2. Golden Yeti*

      Apparently, I am very social (90%). Kind of funny, considering I’m an introvert.

  105. Akwardly Anon*

    My conversation with my manager went well, and she ended up being supportive particularly when she went back and read her own words. We meet with HR next week. I hope we can work with this out in a way that is good for everyone.

    My employer is totally okay with hiring new people into higher positions, but makes it near impossible to promote existing employees. Ever since the acquisition and integration, raises have gone to miniscule to even more miniscule. People don’t get promoted. The performance review system requires a lot of thought and work for both the employee and the manager, but in the end most everyone gets rated smack in the middle. No one knows what it takes to escape the middle and merit a rating above meets expectations / average. There scale is 1-9. There’s a lot of room there!

    Employers – these are HORRIBLE business practices. You can’t retain good people like this, and you can’t motivate employees to do go above and beyond when they are given a clear message that it won’t be valued. I don’t feel very good about my employer. If I didn’t really love my job and my team and know that the people I work with on a daily basis value me, I would have just chosen to quietly move on. If I was someone who was really invested in climbing the corporate ladder, I’d definitely be moving on, and I’ll be moving on if it turns out I’m going to be stuck with the same title and pay but expected to take on more and more responsibility while someone else can come in from outside or from a non-perm position and get the recognition before having taken any of the responsibility. That’s just not okay.

  106. Gray hair*

    I am a professional accountant in my early 50s. I have worked continuously for the last 30 years, with no issue in interviewing and successful negotiation of new jobs. Recently I decided to take a year off from work and have begun to pursue a new job. My resume is getting me interviews. The interviews are going well and I am qualified for the opportunities. But, I am not getting any second interviews or offers. Could the issue be my gray hair? Do prospective employers dismiss me as being too old? I would love some thoughts please.

    1. Brooke*

      I wonder if you could maybe have a mock interview with someone, and then get their feedback? Maybe you’re coming across inadvertently in a way that isn’t putting your best foot forward?

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Eh, I’m 54 and have been naturally grey for sometime.

      If I had to job hunt, I’d color my hair.

      So, I’m with you sista/brother, but, I vote color your hair for job interviewing at least.

  107. CollegeAdmin*

    I’m thinking about dying my hair a natural-looking red or adding blue streaks on the underside. If I end up doing this (particularly the blue), should I check with someone at work first to make sure it’s okay? If it makes a difference, I work in a college IT department.

    1. Brooke*

      Back when I worked at a university it would have been no big deal, though it was a VERY liberal university.

    2. SevenSixOne*

      I HATE it when adults ask other adults for permission, so I would check with the dress code and do it as long as it’s not explicitly forbidden… but I never fully outgrew my rebellious teenage phase :P

  108. Brooke*

    I’m a mid-career, non-management employee at a very large company. For three years I’ve been at my job, I’ve had.. let’s call her Brenda as my manager. Direct, responsive, and has identified me as a top performer. Recently (not sure if it was her decision or way up on high), John, another manager whose group’s work somewhat overlapped mine has been put in place as my manager, and Brenda is above John. John knows my skillset much more generally and I totally understand that to a certain extent, I’ll have to sort of prove myself to him the same way I did with Brenda. One of the issues that’s coming up for me, though, is that John’s management style is MUCH more laid back and often sort of vague, and candidly Brenda told me that I may have to do some “managing up.” She seems grateful that I’ve kept her in the loop on key projects (CCing her, while putting John in the “To” field) because having more direct experience with what I’ve worked on gives her insight into my projects that John doesn’t (yet) have.

    All that explanation for this question – when John says negative things about Brenda’s management style, what do I do? It’s not been rampant, but I can tell there’s tension between them. John’s even hinted that Brenda is eligible for retirement “in a couple months” and that he might be in her position soon, and it’s all a little awkward…. somewhat because of the two management styles, Brenda’s is the one I vastly prefer!

    So far I’ve mainly kept Brenda in the loop on a factual, project basis and haven’t mentioned the comments John’s made about her management style. I’m sure she wouldn’t be pleased to find out he’s making these comments, though. What to do? I thought about hinting to John that I have a lot of respect for Brenda and her management but I don’t want it to come across as me saying that I preferred her as my manager… (though that IS true.)

    Sorry for the novel. Any feedback would be very much appreciated!

    1. R10Tact*

      I would shut it down as politely as I can…”something like – That’s odd that you’re having a difficult time with her management style – Brenda and I have always worked well together.” and let it drop – hopefully he’ll get the message and stop telling you stuff like that. People like that don’t think twice about throwing other people under the bus – I’ve known jerks who’ve said things like “I think Joan sucks and Mary agrees” when it isn’t even true.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Yep, you’re between a rock and a hard place.

      I’d stay out of it. You can’t engage in bad mouthing Brenda so either say nothing or one of those mumble “mmm, I’ve really always enjoyed blah blah about her”.

      Telling Brenda directly what John is saying about her has a high likelihood of blowing up in your face, unless Brenda asks you directly. If Brenda asks you a direct question, she’s your boss’s boss so, you have to answer her directly. Going around your boss to report on what he’s saying, unasked, that’s not a good move (unless it was a bad, impactful thing that was dangerous to the company).

  109. bearing*

    I am a US reader with a question for people who live and work in countries that *don’t* have at-will employment, like we usually do here in the US (which I understand as: the job description can change at any time and you can be let go at any time for any reason, as long as it’s not because you belong to a legally protected class; on the other side, an employee can quit at any time for any reason.)

    I understand that where it isn’t “at-will” employment, the employer is more restricted in their ability to change the job description and in the reasons for which they can fire you. What I was wondering is — are there significant restrictions on the *employee* that we don’t have here? Are you not allowed to quit without giving a certain notice, for example? Are there other restrictions? I was just wondering if the additional restrictions on the employer-employee relationship are symmetrical in one way, or if they only constrain the employer.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’m in the UK and my employment contract contains details of wages, overtime, holiday entitlement location and hours of work along with a confidentiality clause and dress code provision. It also says I must give on months notice, some contracts state 3 months. In practice there’s is no remedy for the employer if I quite without notice they could sue me but the courts would not be in a hurry to award damages unless Id caused a significant loss to the employer.

      My contract prohibits me taking a second job without my managers consent, and using comapny resources for anything related to a secondary job.

      Use of the comapny sickpay scheme, this is one area the employer protects itself as they reserved the right to refuse to pay your salary if they dont believe the illness is genuine or the scheme is being abused.

      There is also a clause that says you are expected to do other reasonable duties as assigned.

        1. Apollo Warbucks*

          Yes the word reasonable is in there, the most “unreasonable” thing I’ve had to do outside of my job description is enter some data into the HR system when I normally support the finance system.

          I’ve never worked anywhere people have been forced into doing things far outside there job description, I’m sure there are employers out there that are unreasonable but employment tribunals offer so protection if things go bad.

      2. NZ Muse*

        Yep, pretty much the same IME down here.

        I do not believe there are significant extra restrictions on the employee as a result.

    2. Laurs*

      UK here too, with an employee from the USA who couldn’t believe how few additional restrictions there were on the employee given that she has a guaranteed contract for as long as she’s here.

      Key things are usually:
      – notice – most places ask for between 4 weeks and 12 weeks but have some level of flexibility if you’re any good
      – annual leave & sick pay – depends on your industry, seniority and sometimes includes when you can take leave
      – a requirement to repay training/relocation if you leave within x months – again industry specific but not generally punitive

      I think those are all the restrictions that are in my contract, along with the usual stuff about IT use, pension and that sort of thing.

  110. Pokémon Trainer*

    I’m starting my first full-time, salaried job in my field of interest, and I wondered if anyone had tips for what to expect, how to adjust, etc :)

    1. Brooke*

      I’d tell my early-career self that it’s TOTALLY normal to feel overwhelmed/nervous at any new job, especially early on in your career when you don’t have years of experience (and hopefully, confidence) to draw from. Ask lots of questions and maintain a positive attitude. Those two things are key!

      1. afiendishthingy*

        This. Nobody expects you to have all of the answers at this stage (well, or anytime, but especially now) and if you act like you know more than you do because of insecurity, it’s going to rub people the wrong way and look much worse than just admitting you don’t know something or that you made a mistake. If someone corrects you or gives feedback, don’t get defensive. They are helping you, and you will impress them by accepting the feedback, asking for clarification if needed, and then applying that feedback in the future. I’m still working on all of this – wish somebody had given me this advice years ago.

    2. Bekx*

      Make sure you don’t focus on one pokemon for all your battles. A good, well-balanced team is always ideal!

      (Sorry I couldn’t resist!)
      But in all seriousness: Just understand that you’re going to have to sit back and learn a bit at first. People will be understanding if you’re not catching on to things right away, so don’t feel too overwhelmed if you don’t know the whole product list.

    3. NacSacJack*

      Dress for success. Be on time. Set a schedule and be there at those times. Listen to the pulse of the office – see when others arrive. Always respect your boss even when you dont because she or he is your boss and can kill your chances for opportunities. Make your boss a success. Watch your money. It wont go as far as you think it will. Dont forget taxes. :) If you need a car, buy one, but dont buy the flashiest one on the lot. You have to pay for it for 4-5 years. Don’t flirt with your co-workers. If a comment feels wrong, dont say it. If you say it and then realize, have the grace to be embarrassed. Don’t apologize. Dont say you’re sorry all the time. It makes you look weak. Realize you don’t always have to be right. Realize you will make mistakes. Again, take note of the office culture. Do they look down on mistakes? Or do they help you fix them? No sleeping in anymore. Thats what Saturdays and Sundays are for. Exercise every day. Watch your diet. Dont eat out so much. Learn to cook for one or stock up on freezerware. Take care of yourself. If you feel down, talk to a counselor or a friend that doesn’t work at your workplace and never wants to. The hardest part of starting out is friends. Who are your friends? Where is your support network? I moved far away and thought my coworkers would be my friends. Nope. They had family or college friends nearby. Travel. Save money to vacation. Dont staycation. Wait until you get married to buy a house. You want the flexibility to roam. Thats a good start.

  111. R10Tact*

    I was hoping people here could help me out…I’m fairly new at my position (3 months) – everyone is REALLY nice. Except this one lady who …has this tone. I figured that it was just her…you know some people don’t realize they have a weird tone. But today she asked me something and a co-worker looked at me and went “what’s her deal? why is she talking down to you?”
    I just shrugged it off…and said something like “oh I don’t think she meant it” but she does this routinely. Her tone does change when our boss is around but not really.
    How do I address without setting her off or should I just get over it and let it go?

    1. Sascha*

      I guess it depends on if you notice her doing things that impact your work or cause a more serious problem. If she just has a condescending tone but isn’t doing anything else, I’d let it go. This reminds me of when I was new to my current job, and I thought the office admin hated my guts…she definitely had a tone, like “I hate this job and everyone in it,” and whenever I interacted with her, I thought she was going to bite my head off. But after a while she softened to me, and I came to realize she is a very defensive person and assumes the worst from the outset, so once she got to know me a little better, she wasn’t so snotty/mean in her tone to me. She still has some of the tone because that’s just how she talks, but I know it’s not directed at me personally. So I’d just try to be nice to your coworker and see if that helps. If it gets worse or she starts doing other things, then ask her what’s up.

    2. WriterLady*

      You can always talk to your boss and have a conversation with them about this person? Just get their perspective and get their opinion on how best to approach this person? Sound positive though and make it seem like you just want their opinion on whats going on, and that isn’t a complaint. It at least gets their eyes on the matter!

    3. Afiendishingy*

      I had the same issue with a coworker with a Tone. She’s incredibly knowledgeable and experienced in our field, so I do often want her input when I’m having trouble with something, but something about the way she would answer made me feel like an idiot. I am definitely an approval-seeker, but I made a conscious decision to not care if she thought or acted like I was incompetent, and to seek her help on technical questions anyway. That helped, and as we’ve gotten to know each other better I think she’s warmed up to me a bit and I’ve come to understand is that her social skills aren’t always the best and the awkwardness is more on her end than mine.

      Unless she’s undermining you constantly in front of customers or your boss, or it’s otherwise impacting your ability to do your job, I’d try to let it go. Good luck!

  112. R10Tact*

    I have been really nice to her (she’s got the boss’s ear…or something).
    I don’t think it would go over well if I spoke to my boss – he is a bit of an obnoxious ox and needs sensitivity training (and I say that with a lot of love – he’s a lovely boss but no sense of tact whatsoever). Like I said…she gets almost saccharine my boss is around or but when she’s talking to me – I feel like she’s got some kind of weird personal vendetta. Maybe I’m being too sensitive…blah!

    1. R10Tact*

      I didn’t actually say…that she is sweet…she does…its very odd! I work with odd people – I should be used to it now, I am not! I am rambling!

  113. Jacey*

    Has anyone ever interviewed (and gotten hired) while they were heavily pregnant? I’m 35weeks now and desperate to get out of a REALLY bad work situation. I’ve gotten a few interviews here and there , but they have not resulted in anything. B/c of my job (teacher) I want to either find something new now and not return to school at all, or take a new position during the holiday break. Should I just wait to resume my job hunt?

    1. Marcia*

      It happens, I can’t find any examples right now but I’ve seen people mention it here.

  114. CrazyCatLady*

    Is it possible to start in a new company in a management role, when you’ve never previously held one? I think the main reason I haven’t had a management position is because I’ve worked for small companies where there really isn’t upward growth because people have been there forever and unless they quit or die, there is no room for a “real” promotion.

    If so, any tips on how to do this? I have managed projects and am often the sole person responsible for multiple departments without supervision, and the ability to make decisions on my own, without approval…

    1. GOG11*

      I’m a bit confused. You say you’ve never held a management role, but the activities you describe all seem like management duties. Do you mean that you’ve managed projects but not people? Or do you mean that you haven’t had a formal management role (i.e., proper title and pay) but that you’ve done it in practice? If it’s the former, I don’t know, but if it’s the second one, I’d think that if you listed your accomplishments on your resume/in your cover letter, they will see that the meat of your role was management, even if your title didn’t reflect that.

  115. Beancounter in Texas*

    I have a second interview with a CPA firm scheduled next week. The biggest appeal of the New Job is a paperless system with heavy use of technology to do the job. At Current Job, we don’t even have company email, much less online banking, remote work access and we are full of paper. Lots of it.

    At Current Job, I’m in the middle of managing the evaluation of some software for our seven multi-family properties. We’re getting closer to making a decision. We’re also upgrading from a T1 internet connection to 35x5MB cable internet (probably next month). So, changes are coming and now I feel hopeful our office can finally join 20th century. (The 21st century is too scary for The Boss yet.) I’m the senior bookkeeper here, with my own office and some influence to make more changes. Historically, change comes slowly, but I want to see whether I can actually implement change. Maybe the software will be a catalyst for more technology; maybe not.

    The CPA firm is growing quickly and they feel they should be hiring the 9th bookkeeper right now, not the 7th. I’d be the bottom of the totem pole again and sharing a small office with the other six bookkeepers for at least 2.5 years, until they move. I’d like to see whether I can reform my current job more before leaving and I don’t want to burn any bridges with the CPA firm. Assuming they offer me a job, how can I word a decline response that shows that I’d love to join them, but maybe in the future, not now?

    1. Malissa*

      “That sounds like a good offer, but I’m in the middle of XYZ project and I’ve decided this may not be the best time to leave.”
      Or something like that. Though my experience is that CPA firms talk a big game, but don’t pay well for mid-career people on the move.

  116. Going Down Under*

    Should I put my visa status on my CV? If so, how?

    I already have my Australian work visa, but it only allows me to work at one employer for 6 months (12 months total). So I’m going to be applying for contract positions, but will it be obvious that that’s why I’m applying for a contract position? I want to make it super clear that I already have the visa, but should I expect them to know what the subclass # means? Ie: If I put “Has subclass visa 462,” would an employer actually understand that? Or should I use plain language?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      You have the right to work legally in the country, there’s no reason to mention your visa status as far as I can tell.

      Now if you get into a conversation about the possibility of extending your contract then it’s only reasonable to mention the hard legal time limit that you have for working for the same employer.

      1. Cristina in England*

        As an expat, I would add it in a line at the end if my CV was very heavily populated with foreign jobs, especially if the most recent jobs are foreign. I would also add it if Australia, like the UK, is getting more and more stringent about requiring lots of checks to prove the right to work.

        1. Going Down Under*

          That’s what I’m worried about. Other than my current address in Australia, there is literally nothing on my CV connecting me to the country. I think I’m going to take your advice below, and I will use “work visa” because it is one, just a restricted one. I really like the idea of putting it at the bottom of the CV. It seems less in your face than at the top. Do you think that advice would change if it were a 2 page CV? Thanks!

    2. Cristina in England*

      I would use plain language, in a separate line at the bottom of your CV. Something like “I have work visa 462 which allows me to work for 6 months at an employer” (or whatever would be the most accurate). I intentionally called it “work visa” rather than “visa subclass” but if it isn’t a work visa, don’t say that of course.

    3. Cath in Canada*

      I have my immigration status up top, immediately under my contact info. I wouldn’t bury it at the end if I were you – sponsoring someone for a visa is a deal breaker for many employers, and you want them to know immediately that they don’t need to sponsor you.

      I’ve been through the stages “Status in Canada: Work Permit [type], would require sponsorship to change employer”, “Status in Canada: Permanent Resident, no visa sponsorship required” and now “Citizenship: Canadian and British”.

      1. Going Down Under*

        How about: “Status in Australia: Work + Holiday Visa subclass 462 Holder, no visa sponsorship required”
        I’m not sure how to describe the 6 month limitation, with that I think I’ll stick to Apollo’s advice and just bring it up if they start talking about room for extending a contract. If they know what a Work Holiday visa is, they’ll know there’s a 6 month max.

  117. Know It All Management Consultant*

    I just found out that my horrible boss returns from administrative leave on Monday. That spells the end of all of my special projects I wanted to accomplish in this role. I’ve been working on a consulting business plan for a while and it looks like now is the time to make the leap. My specialty is regulatory compliance, and as Allison pointed out earlier this week, I’ve found that small and growing businesses need a lot of assistance in this subject. Anyone have any unique insights on how to reach this segment and get them to listen (and more importantly, pay)?

    1. MaryMary*

      I don’t know exactly what sort of regulatory compliance you plan to focus on, but my advice would be to reach out to other professional services firms to see if you can partner with them to fill a gap. If you plan to focus on HR issues, an accounting firm or insurance broker might be a good fit. Accountants and brokers find non-compliant situations all the time through the course of their business, but they might not have the resources or specific expertise to address it themselves.

      If another professional refers you, it helps with the value proposition and sets the expectation that you are also a professional and will charge a fee. Some professional services firms might even sub contract out to you.

  118. Sara*

    When applying to someplace that’s stuck in the dark ages – that is to say, they want me to submit my application materials via snail mail – do you think it matters whether I send my documents in a business-sized envelope (where I’d have to fold them) versus a large manila envelope (where they would lie flat)?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I really doubt it matters, but I personally would send them in a manila envelope where they’d lie flat… mainly because it would be less likely that whoever is sorting the mail would miss it.

    2. Kairi*

      I’m not sure if it matters or not, but I’d recommend a flat envelope. This is just based off of advice I’ve heard about never folding your resume.

    3. GOG11*

      My vote is for flat envelope, as well. If any copies need to be made of your materials, it will be easier for them to make them if they’re flat (one set of folded documents isn’t a big issue…but 40 applicants’ worth and it becomes a real pain).

  119. S*

    I got a message from an acquaintance that I hadn’t spoken to since December. We had a nice conversation and it naturally led into some chatter about his new venture. He asked if I was looking for any side projects, because my academic background is in his field and his company could benefit from it.

    I’m really not right now, because my personal life and my actual FT job keep me busy and fulfilled enough as they stand. But I dunno, it’s still nice to be asked something like that, and be acknowledged for your subject matter expertise, especially when it’s viewed as a “soft” major (social sciences of the political variety).

    Anyway I’m just sharing that because it made me smile and it was a nice thing to have happened to me this week. What are your nice and happy work stories from this week?

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Our IT guy came by this week and thanked me for doing some formatting. Apparently he’s usually asked to do it and it’s always super last minute and terrible for him, so it was good to hear that me doing it was actually more helpful than I had thought!

  120. Newbie Project Manager*

    I am a recent college graduate who is currently working as an admin assistant. I’d like to get into project management, preferably in IT. I’ve been reading books on project management, and I’m looking into Scrum courses, but I’m not sure what else I’ll need to learn. Does any one have any advice on how to get into a project management role?

    1. Cristina in England*

      I would focus less on courses and books (though those will help I’m sure) and more on keeping your eyes open for ways to develop experience doing this. In your job, there might be opportunities for mini projects, like event-planning, or other examples which are escaping me at the moment. The reason I’m suggesting this is that on your resume, you want to be able to say “managed X project, involving Y people and Z departments” or whatever. You won’t be able to say “Read X books in project management” and there is probably a debate to be had on the value of project management courses (which I will stay out of because I don’t know enough to weigh in, just be skeptical).

      1. Newbie Project Manager*

        I’ve been trying to work with the IT team to get some projects to work on, they’ve just been swamped. I like the advice of listing projects on my resume though, I hadn’t thought to do that!

  121. Writer in trouble*

    I am mortified that I am screwing up the best opportunity I’ve ever been given. I’ve wanted to be a writer for as long as I can remember. I currently have a novel written that is out to publishers and I’ve had some short stories published here and there.

    About six months ago I was given the chance to write freelance articles for a local newspaper. I had a friendly relationship with the woman who is the editor of this section of the paper through her blog, and she reached out to me and basically hand picked me to be one of her freelancers.

    Even though I proofread and fact check my articles several times, and also have someone else proofread it, I have had corrections printed after the fact twice. Just today, I realized I had an error on one of two articles I have over at the paper now, being printed tomorrow. It literally came to me out of nowhere when I wasn’t even looking at the piece – just, oh my God, I know I spelled this one street name wrong.

    Although my editor is very polite and tactful about her criticisms I know she is just about fed up with me. She was not pleased, and it may be too late to correct this before the paper goes to print tomorrow.

    I looked at the other article I have pending with them and found another typo, with someone’s name. I have no idea what I’m going to say when I send a now fourth correction over to her. I have told her I wouldn’t let this happen again and I did.

    I feel ill about how badly I have messed this opportunity up, so much so that I abruptly left work earlier to take a personal day – something I have literally never done before.

    I am waiting to send over the other correction until I’m less emotional and have proofread the whole thing (again). I plan on telling her that I understand if she feels the need to sever this relationship. I’m trying to tell myself that not being published in this paper again is the worst case scenario and I can live with that, but the truth is that I would be devastated.

    So two part question:

    What do I say to her when I send over this latest mistake? How do I convey that I understand the seriousness of this, and will implement a different proofreading style in the future?

    And – what should that proofreading style be? What can I do to ensure everything is correct, when I’m already proofreading multiple times? There must be something I’m not doing that I need to be. Any article, tips, or tricks I’d love to hear.

    1. Kairi*

      In regards to proofreading, are you reading your articles out loud? That and taking a short break before re-reading an article has always helped me.

          1. Cath in Canada*

            Do you know any other writers? Could you trade proofing duties? I’ve done that with some friends who also write, although we set our own deadlines, so it doesn’t matter if someone takes a day or two to proof the other person’s draft.

          2. BRR*

            I use a text to speech online program. Also I have found using one of those translucent, color dividers (blue works best for me) over my hard copy and taking a blank sheet of paper and going line by line to be super helpful.

        1. Kairi*

          Hopefully that will help you in the future.

          As for what to say to your editor, I personally wouldn’t go as far to say that you are willing to sever the relationship just yet. I think you’d be better off saying that in trying to take your proofreading seriously, you re-read the article and noticed another mistake. I would then share that you are going to try a new tactic of taking a short break before re-reading to ensure better proofreading in the future.

        2. YandO*

          forgive me if i am completely off base here, but should not the newspaper do a final proofread/typo check?

    2. YandO*

      There are proofreading services available on the web. Not sure the name, but google will tell you.

      I would definitely utilize them, if possible.

      Maybe you can ask her for a recommendation?

      1. Kairi*

        I use Grammarly for proofreading (although you can only use it on Google Chrome). I don’t use it that often, but I do think it’s completely free!

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      It sounds like you’re specifically making errors on proper nouns– I’d go through and just circle every name/street name first. Then go through and focus on double-checking each circled word. That way you don’t get distracted by the rest of the sentences– I tend to skim sentences if I “know” they’re already correct, and this helps me catch finicky technical errors that I might gloss over.

    4. Dynamic Beige*

      I have an issue with reading on computer screens. If it’s long text, I’d rather print it out and read it because for some reason, I don’t notice typos as much on screen as with printed text. Also, what people said about taking a break.

      Do you know any of the other freelance reporters? Can you ask them what they do? It seems that the type of writing you’re used to is the long form, really mull it over type and now you’re doing a different form, which is going to take some time to learn and get up to speed on. Maybe the editor can give you some suggestions?

        1. Cath in Canada*

          +1. Preferably forwards AND backwards, if you have time – reading backwards removes the meaning from the sentence, so you don’t skip over words the way you do when you’re reading normally.

    5. TheLazyB*

      Don’t say about severing the relationship! 1) it sounds really over-dramatic 2) she might not even be thinking that.

      I’ve heard it suggested to read it backwards, but not entirely sure how that works!

      1. TheLazyB*

        Daydream or doze or do a crossword before proofreading. Think about something entirely different.

        1. Cath in Canada*

          Or if you don’t have time, write article A, then write article B, then proofread A, then proofread B. Not as good as taking a complete break, but better than nothing.

    6. fposte*

      I’d say it’s time to move outside of the document. Do a separate step of name confirmation (including capitalization) and type up all the proper nouns in an email or separate document as you confirm them. The typing is key–this isn’t just checking with your eyes, because your eyes don’t have the necessary accuracy right now.

      I’m very lucky in that, as a writer and editor, I have good misspelling radar for names, but I’ve worked with other people who’ve struggled with that. And I think it’s mostly a reading thing and not a writing one, and it’s tough because it’s a processing characteristic that’s usually beneficial. You read and mentally fill in the correct word, because your brain is going “I get it, I get it, it’s Lynwood Ave.” pretty much the same way your brain starts picking up on the line below the one you’re reading as you read without needing to get all the prepositions nailed down.

      That’s why rereading doesn’t work–it’s like going down a slide to check a rivet mid-way down. You have to find a way to stop the flow and deal with the mechanics outside of them.

      (Answer to YandO. Almost nobody employs standalone proofreaders or fact checkers. That’s why it’s so easy to find mistakes in most books.)

      1. Writer in trouble*

        This is exactly it – rereading does nothing because my brain fills in what I want to see. Thank you for your thoughts.

    7. LeighTX*

      My favorite proof-reading trick is to read each line backwards. It forces your eyes to slow down, so spelling mistakes are more likely to stand out. And for grammar errors, reading it out loud slowly, like you’re reading it to someone else, is extremely helpful.

  122. Aimlesstraveler*

    Hey! I’m looking for some generalized career advice. I didn’t finish college at the normal time because of depression issues, spent most of my 20s being depressed and working crappy, dead-end jobs in the service industry and then finally got my sh*t together in the last year or so and went back to finish the one class I needed for my degree. Yea. I know. Why didn’t I do that sooner? Depression, man.

    Anyway, so now I’m DONE and am a “recent college graduate” at 30, living in NYC and trying to find a more career oriented job. I don’t really know what I want to do but my degree is in political science from a top 50 national university. I maybe want to work in politics or at a non-profit but am not married to that idea by any means. I’m smart, learn things quickly and am interested in a wide variety of things (so much so that I am pretty indecisive, I think I could be happy doing a lot of different things). I don’t mind starting in some kind of admin assistant type role. I can’t afford to do an unpaid internship and I have some limited office experience (about 9-10 months) but not much. Only one temp agency I’ve sent my resume to has gotten back to me. Anyone have any ideas? Located in NYC and want to meet and tell me about their field, job, etc?

    1. Kairi*

      First off, I’m sorry to hear about your depression, and I’m glad that you were able to finish school.

      I am not in NYC, so I can’t help with suggestions for the city, but I do think looking for admin assistant roles are a great way to learn more about a company. It puts you in a position where you can communicate with people in different roles and learn more about working in an office environment. It would also benefit you to find a company culture that supports growth within the company.

      Good luck on your job search!

    2. Steve G*

      I am in NYC and a lot of the jobs that are “entry level” (I know you’re not, but..) are in digital media/online advertising. There are a gazillion startups or newish companies hiring….Shutterstock, Curalate, LiveIntent, Phreesia, Criteo, AppNexus, Blippar, SinglePlatform are a few I’ve noted quite a few jobs at. The job ads look intense, but many of the companies hire VERY young and inexperienced people (as per my linkedin research) so I would guess they aren’t actually expecting candidates to know all of the stuff in their job ads.

      1. Aimlesstraveler*

        I definitely consider myself entry level so that’s fine. I don’t know anything about digital media but am certainly open to learning about it! Are you in that field? Thanks for the suggestions!

        1. Steve G*

          No I am not, I interviewed at some of them though in my current job search. Not really my thing I realized because I just don’t fit in with the ultra modern “hipster” millennial culture thing (I will never wear skinny jeans and flannel to work:-) and I am not as into doing things online as some other people are ( I would rather walk and get food instead of using seamless, for example), but I get why people could be really into developing the programs to place ads and track their success and make fancy reports on those things to send to customers. It sounded like lots of metrics and spreadsheets, which I love. And lots of people getting promoted at young ages at those companies, which is why I wish I was more into it, because it can be hard to get certain job titles at more traditional companies.

    3. Writer in trouble*

      I have a friend who had a similar situation – left college during the semester before he was to graduate due to depression. He did eventually finish. Frankly I view it as a health issue that needs to be dealt with like any other. As someone with a (different) chronic disease, my mother always told me health before everything else, even school.

      Anywho. It sounds like you have a good attitude – willing to try new things, wide variety of interests, don’t mind taking an entry level or admin position to get your foot in the door. I think you should keep doing what you’re presumably doing as your apply to jobs. Don’t just apply willy nilly to anything and everything, but really concentrate your efforts on a few jobs that really, really appeal to you, and work on tailoring your cover letters to explain to them how whatever experience you DO have can be transferable to the skills required for the position.

      Also, I would recommend volunteering. I understand you can’t take an unpaid internship and don’t volunteer like, in place of a job. But, that could both help you get connections, references, and narrow down your scope so you can decide what it is you’re really interested in.

      1. Aimlesstraveler*

        Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate your thoughts. I worry that my wide variety of interests maybe makes me look unfocused and indecisive but I think I have a tendency to focus on the negative instead of the positive.

  123. Amy*

    About 6 weeks ago, I officially stopped work for a small (~10 regularly involved staff, all part-time) organization (though there hadn’t been any assignments for me since about 6 weeks before that). However, I’ve still been getting staff emails, including announcements and minutes for staff meetings. Today, I responded to one to the person sending them (just her! not reply all) and told her that she might not realize, but I was still on the staff email list.

    She responded asking if I’d like to be taken off the list, which I thought was odd. Wouldn’t it be obvious that I shouldn’t be on the staff email list 6 weeks after I stopped working there, and that was the only reason I would have emailed her about it?

    This is an organization that takes contributions from non-employees, so I suppose she might be hoping I will contribute in the future (and I might, once I settle into my new, full-time job, but I still don’t see why that means I should be on the staff email list.) So…am I missing something here?

    2. fposte*

      No, but I wouldn’t worry about it. Some people may stay on because they hope to pick up assignments later (I doubt that they send staff meeting minutes to prospective donors). Just say you’d like to be taken off it and forget about it.

  124. YandO*

    I got a JOB! A real job with a start date and my future manager emailing me to tell me how excited she is for me to start. I will have benefits again, growth potential, co-workers who actually work and show up to work. I will live in an awesome place with excruciatingly high COL, but oh well. We can’t win them all :)

    I am relocating across country. It’s been a whirlwind, but things are moving along. I gave my notice at my no good toxic family owned nightmare small business. They said tons of good things about me, so they might even be a good reference for me. Which I deserve, but I have always been worried they would screw me over if they had a chance. It looks like they won’t and they actually recognize the contribution I have made. They just chose not to tell me because they did not want to give me a chance to ask for a raise. Now they are scrambling.

    Anyways, I came here to say THANK YOU. I could not have done it without Alison and the community.

    4. Diddly*

      Yay! Congrats. I really love reading on here when people have got jobs, it makes it feel a little more tangible.

      1. YandO*

        yes!

        I had no connections and did not networking

        I read on the web every day that the only way to get a job is to have an “in” and I am here to tell you that’s BS. It’s true, having a connection gets you a job faster and maybe less painfully, but you can absolutely without a doubt can find a job by simply applying online.

        Info for anyone who is interested:
        It took me about 6 months of very active search. Started passively looking 9 months ago.
        I paid for resume help to three different professionals (first one was a bust).
        My job search always focused on out of state opportunities.
        I’ve invested around $2000 into my job search this year and I think it was totally worth it.
        Two companies made offers after only meeting me over Skype (no in person interviews).
        The company I ended up with interviewed me for the first time 5 months ago.
        I never got any inappropriate questions. All recruiters were very professional.
        I was flown out for an interview only once by a non-profit.
        I applied to 38 – 40 companies. Interviewed or completed assignments for 11 companies. Had total of 3 offers. Got a rejection emails roughly 60% of the time. Only one company did not have the courtesy to reject me officially after two interviews.

        I kept pretty good data for my job search. I will be happy to share more observations.

        1. Steve G*

          Good stats. Yes, I have the same experience with the networking, the 3 jobs that were available in my network so far don’t match me at all.

          Your offer rate is pretty impressive, as is your interview rate! I am batting 1 in 14 applications gets a positive response/interview.

          Can I ask, what did you spend the $2000 on?

          1. YandO*

            Absolutely.

            $360 for the first resume writer. Really bad experience.
            $140 Alison’s resume review and book
            $100 additional resume/cover letter writing proofreading
            $93 linkedin premium membership for 3 months
            $1200 on travel. Once flew to San Francisco on my dime. Once flew to Colorado on their dime, but I had to pay for my own food.
            roughly another $200 on misc things like mani/padi, new shirt, etc before interviews

            Honestly, the rate did not feel very impressive as it was happening. There was a stretch of 20 applications that were all rejections in the middle.

            I was really resolved to apply to jobs I can actually get/do, so I think that helped.

            1. SSW*

              CONGRATS!!! And thank you for sharing, it is soooo encouraging. (I was going to write “you have no idea” but since you’ve been on the job hunt for over 6 months, you do!) I am starting to apply to out of state jobs as well and this totally gives me hope.

              1. SSW*

                I also know what it’s like to work in a toxic, crappy, unprofessional small business and am glad to hear someone else got out.

              2. YandO*

                Just keep doing it and make sure you learn from *every* single interview

                My new company interviewed in February and decided to go with other candidates. I think due to my not that great interviewing skills. They are growing, so I kept looking for new jobs form them. Then they posted one in June. I immediately applied and rocked my interviews because of all the experience I gained in the last 5 months.

                I had a running word doc of interview questions in google docs. I would always have one page for questions and specific reasons for each company and then about 10 pages (by the end) filled with questions I got and had trouble answering.

            2. Steve G*

              What type of things did they tell you to rewrite in your resume reviews? Not that I’ve seen your resume, but curious….

              1. YandO*

                1. I am 4 years out of college and I had my GPA/other stuff on there (as per the crappy resume writer). Both Alison and my third writer told me to take off everything but name of school and degree (no dates)
                2. Alison really focused on the fact that I needed to add more accomplishments. I don’t think I fulfilled this as fully as she wanted, but as fully as I could, considering my background.
                3. Changed my boring layout to a more “fun” with a blue top.
                4. Shortened my volunteering descriptions
                5. I went from being a temp to hired receptionist to EA in my old job very quickly. I used to not put it on my resume, but they said I should
                6. As you can see, I am really bad about typos, so it was a huge help to just have someone proofread my materials.
                7. Added a summary section. I really struggled figuring out what a summary would be and she basically gave me a formula. “Such and such professional with X years of experience in such and such field. Seeking opportunities/Special interest in you and you do.”

                Overall I think even the crappy resume writer was a good and necessary experience.

                Another thing I did is take out skills sections. I just don’t have any impressive skills to dedicate a section. I stopped putting my address on. Made sure to say “relocating to X area”.

    7. danr*

      Congratulations!!! and don’t worry too much (just worry a little) about the high COL. You’ll find that there are benefits to living there.

  125. Anonsie*

    Are black suits inappropriate for interviews?

    I’ve always, always, always heard dark suits (including black) were totally fine for interviews but in the last couple of weeks I’ve had several people tell me black is only for weddings or funerals or fancy social events. I thought this was more of a standard for men’s suits and less for women’s, but a number of women I asked about it also told me black suits aren’t for interviews or regular work days. So far I haven’t been able to find anyone who agrees that black is ok, in fact.

    I know a lot of people don’t like to wear black and prefer dark gray, but is black actually verboten outside of ultraconservative corporate settings?

    I may be too late in the day for this though, boo.

    1. YandO*

      I have a black suit because it was on sale and the only one that fit and I could afford. I wore it to 3 interviews that resulted in job offers. Only one of them was ultraconservative corporate company.

      it does not matter

    2. fposte*

      Black is fine. And people who are telling you black is for weddings have no business telling anybody anything about clothing rules. (Traditionally, black is verboten for weddings, because it’s for mourning. People like black so that’s pretty much gone by the wayside, but if you’re going to make rules at people, then you can’t wear black to a wedding.)

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        This is an awesome comment.

        but if you’re going to make rules at people, then you can’t wear black to a wedding

    3. ginger ale for all*

      Black for weddings? What? I don’t get it. I’m from the South and no, just no.

      However, perhaps this color choice happens in other cultures.. I had heard that in China and India, people use the color red a lot in weddings.

    4. BRR*

      It’s not terrible. Having a nice fitting suit is the important part and as long as it’s not some really weird color.

      For men I think a medium gray suit should be the first suit they get.

  126. Diddly*

    Anybody know of some free tutorial type things on Raiser’s Edge? Just saw a job I liked the look of and this would help me stand out. Also if someone is able to point me to it, how would I say in the application that I had gained this skill?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Do you have experience with any sort of database? (Not Excel, but Access? Salesforce? etc.?) I wouldn’t worry about the specifics. If you’re comfortable navigating a database or other CRM, you’ll be fine with RE.

      (I just started a job in which they asked me about RE in my interview. I’d never used it but told them I’d used plenty of other similar programs and didn’t anticipate any problems. I didn’t treat it like any big thing, because it’s not. It took me all of 5 minutes to feel comfortable in it.)

      1. Diddly*

        Ok cool – yep I’ve used loads of databases/CRMs previously – cycled through lots of different ones as a temp.

        1. BRR*

          In my experience people tend to not care specifically about the specific database as long as you have CRM experience. The exception is if it’s like for a RE specialist or something really techy.

  127. some1*

    Any “Big Picture” thinkers out there? In work situations, especially when I’m new to a role or a project, I just want to master HOW to do something before I learn about why something is done, why it’s done Way X and not Way Y, and how that that fits into the company.

    However, in the last couple of years I have had to train two different people who want to know Big Picture stuff the first time I show them a new task. I appreciate the enthusiasm, but it’s not necessary to get into that at that stage, nor do I have time to do so…does anyone have any ideas on how to handle training or working with people like this?

    1. fposte*

      I’m coming from a personal bias the other way here, but I think big picture stuff is a good thing, and employees interested in that are really valuable; to me, keeping employees apprised of the big picture repays its time.

      Can you do a big picture overview at the start of the training, then note that you won’t be able to interrupt the flow to get into larger questions at the time but you can do an emailed response at the end of training if they want to collect their questions? That way you can keep the digressions out of training but don’t end up with a “just shut up and make the widgets” effect.

      1. some1*

        I have tried that, “I can get into that more with you later”. I probably should have explained that I’m an admin so these questions are coming as I am trying to show someone how to do something time-sensitive, so it’s already taking longer to do the task because I am explaining and demonstrating the steps.

        1. fposte*

          What I’m suggesting is that rather than just saying that on the spot you mention at the beginning of the training that you won’t be digressing and let them know how and when their questions *can* be answered, so that when they do ask you can remind them and they know when they can get it answered.

          It’s possible also that it’s not something I’d see as a big picture or not issue, just a trainee whose interests need to be focused a little more on the task at hand.

          1. fposte*

            Additional thought–you can always plead beyond your pay grade. “Guys, these are interesting questions, but I’m just here to get you trained by tomorrow, and bigger questions will have to go to somebody else.

  128. SSW*

    Hello,

    Not sure if anyone is still active right now but here goes anyway. I have a quick question. I applied this past Monday to a position through Americorps which is a government funded program that offers one year jobs within a non- profit organization. I live in sw Florida and the job is in Palm Beach in south Florida. I thought since they list in the job description that they offer relocation assistance that they were open to applicants from outside of the area. But after reading a section on this site about applying to out of town jobs, I realize that may not be the case. I am now conscious that my application was most likely already looked over because of my location.

    The position I applied to is for a foundation that has sites in several cities in Palm Beach county. So because of that the same exact position is also available at another one of their sites in another city. I know this because I just saw the posting for it and it has a different contact than the one I’ve already applied for. So I am wondering if it is worth the risk to apply to the second posting using my best friend’s address who lives in Broward county which is adjacent to Palm Beach? I don’t know if the two people reviewing applications are doing it individually or together. But if my location was really the issue, maybe I would have a chance if they at least think I live down there. Any thoughts?

    1. TCO*

      I wouldn’t expect relocation assistance for an AmeriCorps position, even if they offer it for permanent positions. But in many AmeriCorps programs, it’s common for out-of-area candidates to apply and move. If that’s the case at this agency, then being a non-quite-local candidate is probably not a cause for rejection.

      You’re overthinking this–which I know is easy when you really want the job. You have no way of knowing if your application was already rejected, and (if it was), why. There are so many other reasons why you might not have heard back from the agency yet.

      Apply to the new position using your current address. If you want, include a sentence in your cover letter about your plans to move to the area at your own expense. Good luck!

    2. Regina*

      I know people who have relocated to new cities and new states for Americorps positions. I wouldn’t lie about your address. I’m not sure the distance between those two cities, but that could really put you in a pickle if they want to interview you and you’re far away, or if they want you to start sooner than is possible when you have to move to a new city. Not to mention, it’ll be hard to get to know your new coworkers if you’re basically having to live the lie that you made up for your application.

      When I applied for the out of state job that I now have, at the end of my cover letter I wrote a few sentences about why I wanted to live in the new area, and I also mentioned that I had already made living arrangements in the new city, so relocating would not be an issue for me. You can keep it professional while also briefly and simply stating that your relocation will not be a problem for them, and that you have reasons to live in that place besides just the new job, because that shows you have given it thought and aren’t rushing into a decision to move that you’ll regret and leave your new job right away.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      My experience managing AmeriCorps members is several years old now, so you should take this with a grain of salt.

      When I was managing VISTAs (who do follow different guidelines than other AmeriCorps members, so that might also be a difference between my experience and yours), anyone who had to relocate more than X miles (I don’t remember the number) received a moving reimbursement. It wasn’t huge – a max of $500 or something like that. It was intended to cover a flight or a Uhaul rental or something else along those lines – not movers, hotel while you look for an apartment, etc.

      That cost was covered by the Corporation for National and Community Service, not by the organization that was hosting the AmeriCorps member. As such, the host organizations didn’t care about it at all.

      However: We were very, very cautious about hiring non-local candidates, for two reasons. 1) It was unlikely that someone applying for an AmeriCorps job would have the means to fly in for an interview, and we certainly didn’t have the funding to cover interview travel costs. So because we knew that most out-of-towners would only be able to do phone interviews, we only bothered to interview out-of-towners who were truly stunning – way more impressive than the local folks. 2) VISTAs are not allowed to have jobs outside of their AmeriCorps position, and the living stipend is very small. Over the years, we observed that most VISTAs needed the support (help with money, help with things like dealing with a broken down car, even just emotional support with everyday struggles) of close friends and family nearby.

      All that being said, I wouldn’t reapply using your friends address. It’s likely that the various hiring managers will confer with each other. It’s entirely possible that they won’t notice, but if they do it will seem odd if you applied to both locations with different addresses. If you are able, you may want to send a quick email note that says “I noticed that you are hiring for this role in several of your offices. I wanted to let you know that I would be happy to work in X, Y, or Z offices and plan to relocate to that area.”

  130. AK*

    Hey! Looking for your thoughts on a weird thing I got myself into:

    The situation:
    I work in an academic research environment at a large university in Canada. We share office space with other teams and while we don’t directly work with them in any way, there are social events at work that everyone goes to, and we know things about each other in the normal way that people who share next-door cubicles and offices do.

    My boss, “Jerry”, is going on a one-year sabbatical to a small country in Africa starting in August and he’s taking his wife and two kids. He was looking for someone to rent his fully-furnished condo and look after his two cats while he was gone. I was thinking of adopting a cat, and asked him about his (he taught them to use a toilet which I wanted to know all about). He glommed onto this VERY enthusiastically, and eventually convinced me (without any coercion, I’ll note) to foster his cats while he’s gone and rent his condo from him at a discount in lieu of the cats. (This type of ‘I know you, you know me, let’s make a deal’ thing is totally up his alley. E.g.: said condo was bought from a former student; I was hired after interviewing for another position and wasn’t offered it, then, when someone quit, Jerry asked if I was interested before posting the job to make sure I’d apply.) My partner was fine with it, I polled friends and family members and no one told me to run for the hills. A friend who works in a similar research environment told me this type of arrangement isn’t unheard of, and that it was not a scary potential conflict of interest that I should be worried about.

    For a while, Jerry was very careful about keeping out communication about our ‘arrangement’ to private channels (personal phone/email), and out of work channels (work phone/email/Slack). However, as his move gets closer, he is increasingly preoccupied with it and these conversations seem to happen more and more often at my desk or in his office, and through our one-on-one Slack channel.

    I definitely have increased access to Jerry because of this arrangement. My partner and I spent a week cat-sitting as a ‘trial run’ while he was on vacation, we text fairly often to sort out details, he’s having us over for dinner before he goes to figure out what of his stuff/furniture we want him to leave behind, etc. I don’t think this has changed my working relationship with him – we got along very well from the start – but it’s hard to say.

    The problem:
    Of course the two other people on my team know about it. One seems indifferent, but the other seemed a bit weirded out by it the arrangement, and for a while was going out of her way to bring it up to other people during said social events. I casually mentioned to her that Jerry asked me to keep it on the down-low, as a hint to her to not keep talking about it. For the most part, this has been effective. However, since he’s being less discrete, it seems a bit backwards to ask her to be discrete. So now of course some of the other people we share office space with also know.

    So here’s my question; For the next year while I live in Jerry’s condo and take care of his cats, how to I go about normal life without rubbing it in people’s faces that I have this special thing with my boss? The condo and the cats will be “mine” for the year and it seems strange that I shouldn’t be able to talk about it. Do people just have to get used to the idea? Was this a horrible, horrible idea in the first place? (It’s too late to back out now!!!!) What do you think?

    1. Erin W*

      I think people should get over it! If you come across as confident in your decision to take care of the cats and stay at his place, I would imagine people will treat it as normal eventually (if they don’t already). Sure it seems odd to an outsider that you have this arrangement, but as long as you are comfortable with it and know that you’ve done things “above board” (as my dad would say, ha!), then it doesn’t matter much what other people think about it.

    2. SSW*

      Seems like a cool deal, congrats. Although I’ve never been in this situation, it seems pretty straightforward to me. Where you’re living is none of your colleague’s business, even if it is the boss’s place. I mean, aside from them knowing you’ll be living there, what more do they need to know? Unless, what you’re really asking is if you can talk with them throughout the year about your experience in the condo? In which case, I’m not sure what you’d be telling them.

    3. Steve G*

      Well I think you are assuming people think this is some sort of sweet deal, but it probably won’t sound like one to a lot of people! As nice as cats are, a lot of people don’t want to deal with the shedding and the whole going-to-the-bathroom inside thing. And moving 2X in a year (in and out of Jerry’s) doesn’t sound that fun either! So I don’t think people are going to care that you have a special thing going on:-)

    4. Diddly*

      The ones that think it’s weird probably aren’t thinking that way because they feel like you’re getting special treatment, more like that your personal life is very entwined with your boss.

      At an old job where me and colleagues worked adjacent to my boss’s home, we all refused to house-sit while they were away, even though commuting would have been great (!) because it felt icky, like your privacy was sort of invaded – which is weird because we’d be doing the invasion. But it felt too close, and also that if anything went wrong in the home (spills, break-in) it could get very complicated and uncomfortable. I like a nice clean work/home balance. But they’d be returning shortly, so it’s a little different from your situation, he’s unlikely to catch you in your pjs binge watching something awful.
      So that’s all I think the ones that find it weird would be thinking, just that it’s not something they’d feel comfortable doing. I think v few people would think it’s a great deal. But if it works for you, don’t worry about it, there’s nothing wrong with it and maybe be open about it, it seems weirder that you’re actively trying to keep it on the downlow – that makes it somewhat suspicious.

    5. Writer in trouble*

      Oh for heaven’s sake, what is wrong with people. No, this is not a horrible, horrible idea, it is a mutually beneficially arrangement.

      I agree with you that if he’s being less discreet you don’t need to ask other people to be discreet. That also feeds into the whole idea that this is sketchy in some way, which it’s not. Don’t blab on about it, but don’t hide it either, or lie if someone asks you. Maybe have a go-to response like, “He knows how interested in cats I am and am thinking about fostering/adopting, so this just worked out.”

      Don’t worry about this too much. You’re not in the wrong.

    6. fposte*

      And honestly, once you’re in the condo, it’s less likely to come up at work–people really don’t say much about their mortgage and rental arrangements at work, either. Just treat it like any other living space, and basically news about it is limited to “going home now” and “big bug in the bathroom.”

  131. new job annoyances*

    I started a new job somewhat recently in a field with high turnover, and am not entirely thrilled with how things are going. My previous job was super high pressure, super strict to best practices, and super high burn out. My new job is…a mess in comparison. Since it is a high turnover field, I can get away with exploring new options fairly soon, so I am trying to not let the constant annoyances get to me, and also focus on retaining the skills that other jobs will want me to have.

    I am starting to realize the reason there is such high turnover is because the skills are very transferable, the workplaces very so much in standards, and people aren’t going to put up with it. So I am wondering why I am putting up with it? Mostly because I don’t want to job search.

  132. GOG11*

    So, I had my performance evaluation this week. I got the highest rating, which my manager made a point to tell me isn’t common at our organization (sometimes evaluations are submitted with the highest rating and sent back) and, not only that, but it was unanimously agreed upon by others who work with me (also rather uncommon).

    I had read Alison’s post about how to respond professionally to negative feedback and I’d assumed I’d get a middle-of-the-road ranking…so I wasn’t as polished in the performance evaluation as I would have liked to be, but being a tiny bit giddy at getting nothing but great feedback isn’t the worst thing in the world, right?

    2. danr*

      Not at all… but be prepared to continue working at at least your current level to maintain that rating. If there are any areas for growth, talk that over with your manager. Expanding your skills is a good way to keep that high rating.

      1. GOG11*

        This is a good point. I am really bad at not doing things at 100% all the time (I attribute it to my ADD…once I’m engaged, I’m engaged. This isn’t to say that I’m 100% good at everything, just that my natural tendency is to do the best I can pretty much all the time. This year was a challenging one for everyone, and the coming year shouldn’t be short on them either.

        She didn’t really say where I could improve, and I think I’m going to follow up with her and ask about that. I have specific goals to accomplish, but they don’t really focus on development/growth (just getting specific items done) and I really do want those things.

  133. Erin W*

    My sister works for a small company in a rural town, and the position she holds was created for her when she came on board. She has been in this position for a couple years now, and she asks me lots of questions about how to handle things. I don’t always know how to help, so I figured I’d see if ya’ll have some ideas.

    She’s an event coordinator working at a rental supply place, so she has to meet clients and potential clients at the event site to talk over logistics and convince them to use their company. The company vehicles that she could potentially use for said meetings are also available for rent (and also the same ones the company uses to transport the tents, generators, dance floors, tools, etc.). She usually doesn’t have access to them because they are already in use. Due to this, she has been using her own vehicle to drive and had an agreement with her boss that he would pay her for the mileage she puts on her car. A couple days ago, he made an announcement during a company meeting that he will no longer be paying for mileage. Besides being passive aggressive (she’s the only one who uses her own car and everyone knew he was talking to her specifically), is there anything she can do to convince him that this won’t work for her job? If he requires her to be present on site for these events, is he legally obligated to pay her mileage? Are there guidelines for how much an employer pays for mileage? She lives in Wisconsin, if that matters.
    In general, she is frustrated with her boss’ antics (this isn’t the first time he’s done a jerkish thing to her), and she is severely underpaid for the work she does. He seems like a fairly knowledgeable businessman who is taking advantage of the fact that he employs people in a small community who don’t have many employment options (or any). Is there a way for her to communicate her frustrations to him and acknowledge that she feels taken advantage of? Is it worth it? Also, when there are no comparable jobs in her area, how does she go about asking for a raise?
    Obviously the best answer is for her to get the hell outta dodge and move somewhere that has better opportunities for her, but let’s assume that’s not an option right now. She loves what she does and is fortunate to get paid to do something she naturally enjoys, but when you can hardly pay your bills and are making no financial progress, the joy is quickly lost.
    Thanks for your help!

    1. FlyGirl*

      I think a lot depends on how far/often she’s driving. If it’s 50 miles per week, it might not be worth making a stink about but if it’s 200 that’s different! Would she be able to determine how many miles she drives on average in a week/month and potentially negotiate a car allowance based on that vs mileage?

      Btw – her boss is kind of a jerk, sorry for that.

    2. fposte*

      1. Feds don’t require reimbursement for mileage.
      2. Can’t find that Wisconsin does, either.
      3. She can deduct it from her taxes if they don’t (has to keep records, though).
      4. There is a standard mileage rate used by the IRS for deduction and that’s what a lot of employers use.

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      In the UK there is no obligation for employers to reimburse mileage but the tax authority publishes a rate per mile that can be claimed. Your sister can probably keep her own records and claim the tax back from the IRS. It’s a ball ache and boss is being a jerk. It might be worth seeing if your sister can get the boss to speak an accountant to explain how reimbursement for milage claims work and stress that when using your own car for business its standard practice to claim milage. It’s also worth noting the rate is made up of two parts one part fuel and the other for wear and tear maybe th boss would be open to a fuel only reimbursement? Leaving your sister to claim the difference in her tax return.

  134. voluptuousfire*

    I have a potential phone screen for a start up next week. I really like this company and the role is very similar to one I had applied for with them back in March but wasn’t able to move forward with due to my temp gig. My previous full time role prior to this was with a start up and putting it simply, it was a hot mess. Disorganization on a company wide level. In the meantime, I’d like to gauge how organized/structured this company is by asking a question about it in the phone screen. Anyone have any idea of how to phrase it?

    Overall, this company does seem to have it’s stuff together. The hours seem pretty straightforward, 9-6 or so. At my former job, business hours were 9-6 but the expected hours were more like 9-9. Just for example.

  135. Editrix*

    I’m interested in a job with a government contractor that requires applicants to already have a security clearance, but I don’t have one. I think I would otherwise be a good fit for this position and wouldn’t have trouble obtaining a clearance. Would it be worth applying anyway, or will they just think I can’t follow instructions?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      At a guess I’d say they want the candidates to have the clearance already so the start date can be as soon as possible. How quick can you get the clearance if you apply for the job is it likely to delay the start date if you offered the job?

    2. The IT Manager*

      Unfortunately not. Clearance can take a long while and the company has to pay for it. If they hire someone with an active clearance they can start immediately, and the clearance doesn’t cost the contract company any money. I don’t think it hurts you, but I would expect them to immediately remove you from the running if you don’t have a clearance so you’ve wasted your time.

    3. AnotherFed*

      It depends. There isn’t an infinite supply of workers with clearances, so if you’re entry level and otherwise qualified, it won’t hurt – normally it’s not too big a deal and is an expected cost of doing business. However, with the recent OPM issues, it’s entirely likely that getting new clearances through is going to be hard for a while, so this may be a hard restriction for now because they need people who can start working within a few weeks.

    4. Editrix*

      Thanks for the input! I will hold off on applying and hope they have other jobs available in the future.

  136. FlyGirl*

    Hoping for some advice! I’m reasonably certain I’ll be getting a job offer in the next 1-2 weeks and I plan to accept which is great. Obviously until that happens there are no guarantees. I’m also scheduled to fly to HQ for some training in mid Aug and I’ve been holding off on booking the flight based on the potential offer. I want to leave on good terms and would feel bad booking a $500+ flight knowing there’s a good chance I’ll be quitting BUT I don’t know for sure! What would the commenters here do? Thanks!

    1. Regina*

      You could book a flight with cancellation insurance. That might cost the company less than buying the ticket last minute if you wait two weeks and don’t end up getting the new job offer. Good luck!

  137. TheLazyB*

    Too late maybe but just in case….

    Started a new job recently. There were a load of us on the corporate induction and a group of us are having lunch together every week.

    I included one guy ‘Tom’ who after a few emails had gone back and forth emailed me and ‘Betty’ to say that he has a condition (don’t want to out him by naming it just in case!) and struggles with our open plan offices and can’t cope with a big crowd of people at lunch. I’m meeting him and Betty for lunch next week, I haven’t seen him since we started.

    Today at our group lunch one person said ‘oh x person emailed Tom so see if he wanted to be included and he doesn’t like open plan so needs to eat alone!’ a) I’m pretty sure that’s a much exaggerated version of what he said and b) her tone was really snotty about it.

    I didn’t answer for a while and then just said almost like a new conversation ‘oh some people do really struggle with open plan offices and need a break!’ And we went on from there.

    I nearly asked him after his first email what he’d want me to say if anyone asked about him never showing up, wish I had :(

    So – any suggestions of alternative ways to handle that?

    1. fposte*

      I think your delayed response was great, and it could be used again if it comes up again. But in general I don’t think I’d go to employee A to report an unpleasant thing employee B said about them, even if it was to ask how employee A wanted to me to respond; that’s making this into a bigger deal than I think it needs to be. If Tom mentions to you that he’s had problems with employee B, I think it’s fair to say “From her response, I don’t think she gets the Teapot Disease thing,” but mostly I’d stay out of it except for quietly clarifying if his condition comes up.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Yeah I did think about asking him now but quickly discounted that idea, would be too weird to get back onto it now. Wish I had asked in the first place because I suspected it would come up. But there you go. Glad my response seemed reasonable!

        I’m glad he felt able to share it with me, it’s not something Terribly Awful but it’s something people can be funny about and he didn’t really know me from Adam.

  138. WriterLady*

    Anyone know of a free online program that can help me learn excel and/or publisher? I would LOVE to learn those and I’d like to learn more by doing. Just curious as to what is out there.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      People still use Publisher?

      No specific site recommendation for Excel, but I’d Google tutorials on pivot tables, text to columns, and macros as a good start.

  139. the gold digger*

    Laughing because I just saw the GD post for today (I post a few months in advance) because it is about Sly and Doris interviewing a retired RN for home care and being ticked off because she did not reveal her weaknesses.

    “Did they ask her?” I asked my husband.

    “No,” he said. “I think they thought she was supposed to volunteer that information.”

    “Do they not understand how job interviews work?” I asked. (And then realized that was a stupid question, given Sly’s career of tenured professorship.)

  140. Tara*

    Probably too late for any advice, but I’m going to vent.

    There are three other interns that I work with. This is really a “make work” kind of job; beyond a few basic things that need to be done, there isn’t a lot of assigned work. As the only computer literate person, I have a lot of projects that have been assigned to me or that I have taken on, so I am basically always busy. One of the others is great at finding things to do, or at least not complaining during down times.

    The other two basically just sit around all day whining about having nothing to do. They spend hours chatting, laying on the couch. Our boss wasn’t around yesterday, and one of the girls asked me if she thought that she could leave TWO AND A HALF HOURS EARLY without docking her hours. Um, no? She also had her friends hanging around for ages. (Part of our job is youth engagement, so they were here for an event, but they took a long time to leave after it was done.) They always make comments about how “Tara is the only one who does any work around here!” and then laughing and giving their excuses for why that’s the way it is.

    I can usually think of stuff for them to do, but we’re peers and I don’t feel comfortable ~assigning~ them work. There are components of my projects that I could use help with, but the one time I suggested it they didn’t seem interested at all and I’m worried that it will reflect poorly on me if they don’t put in much effort.

    Gr!

    1. Nanc*

      Yeah, not your problem, except for the fact that you’re doing all the work. Think of the positives:
      1. When it’s your turn to run an intern program, you know what not to do!
      2. You’re practicing an excellent work ethic.
      3. You’re making good contacts for future references. They know you have the skills to Get Stuff Done so they’re giving you projects.

      Stuff to do that might make you feel better:
      1. Keep a journal/log of all your projects. Add details such as what kind of computer programs you used, what problems you had to solve, how you communicated with others on the project, etc. This will be a great reference as you prepare for interview questions like “tell us about a time you had to complete a [type of project here].
      2. If you don’t have regular meetings with your manager, ask for one and say you’d like to discuss the work you’re doing and get some feedback on anything you might improve upon. You could also offer areas where you’d like to improve or skills you’d like to learn and see if they can help out. Offer to write up some SOPs (if they don’t exist) so the other interns have some written direction on how to do the day to day tasks.
      3. Be professional, but assertive with the other interns. If they’re sitting around chatting, feel free to nicely say “hey, I need to concentrate here, could you take your conversation to another area or schedule it for another time?” Bonus: if their lack of working is impacting your production, if you start by saying something and nothing changes, you can go to your boss and ask for help.

      Finally, keep us posted on how it’s going, whether to report back improvement on the slacker interns or to bitch your little lungs out because sometimes venting helps!

    2. Shannon*

      I’d frame it as a request for help as opposed to suggesting it. “Hey, Jane, could you give me a hand with counting tea boxes, please? I could really use the help and would appreciate it so much.”

  141. anon17*

    What are some tips to getting accurate status updates? I feel like when I ask, I either get long-winded answers (which aren’t helpful because I don’t need that level of detail), or I get inaccurate or misleading information (from one person). In the latter case I’ll leave the meeting thinking “we’re good on this” then find out the next day that X isn’t done. I’ve tried asking the specifics “Are X, Y, and Z done?” But I’m not always at the meeting where it was decided to also do A, so I never know about it to ask. Is the answer just more micromanaging?

    1. fposte*

      Are these your reports or your co-workers? In both cases I’d say more specific questions might be helpful. “Are X, Y, and Z done? Is there anything else that will prevent the project from getting to Bob on Thursday? Okay, I didn’t know about A–would I be able to see a draft of that or your progress on that by COB tomorrow?”

    2. Manager on Duty*

      I don’t know, but can you let me know if you figure it out?

      In my (~20-person) department, each employee is supposed to email the manager on duty a three-column form of TIME / ISSUE / RESOLUTION by the end of their shift, which the manager on duty uses to create a detailed daily status report.

      On a good day, the manager on duty gets status updates from *maybe* five people, most of whom don’t use the form and/or submit inaccurate, incomplete, or long-winded (read: useless) information. So problems go unnoticed for days or weeks or months, all because the person who has the problem either doesn’t think it’s a problem or doesn’t see fit to tell anyone else about it. ARGH.

      1. anon17*

        I’ll try the general “is there anything else preventing this” — but, to be at least, isn’t that what I’m already asking when I ask “Is project X ready for Monday?” Or is there some alternative interpretation of that that I’m unaware of?

        Also, in cases where the status I get is missing important information, what’s the appropriate way to get an explanation? I don’t want to let it slide and make it seem OK, but I’ve been told I need to be softer. Is this OK: “Percival, you told me this was ready, but Penelope just told me that X isn’t done. What happened?” [Listen to response] “This is important information to relay in the status report beforehand, instead of finding out when it’s too late to intervene”

  142. Lizabeth (call me hop along)*

    Need some advice from the hive…

    Parent company has been having financial problems for about 5 years but now it had reach a high level. Like not paying bills at least 90-120 or not paying at all until the vendors complain. They have not been transparent with the employees or suppliers at all. They are still meeting payroll but I do worry about the vendors I have a personal relationship with. They are small companies that can’t float “loans” to our company.

    Any suggestions to knock some sense into the owners? My boss has tried but isn’t being listened to. I figure that I would be very blunt when I leave for another job but wonder if they’re not listening now, what would make them listen to me?

    1. it happens*

      This isn’t going to sound very nice, but it does not reflect on you or your work. You said the company has financial problems. The owners know they aren’t paying the vendors. The vendors have to manage their own businesses, which may mean no longer working with a company that doesn’t pay them in a timely manner. Unless you can tell the company how to find more revenue quickly then there’s not a lot you can do.
      Good luck in your new job. Don’t look back

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      They’ll get some sense knocked into them when they are on prepay with everyone.

      You have to be careful how explicitly you say it (assuming you aren’t in a position to get fired atm), but you can drop hints to your loyal suppliers about prepay that they’ll catch. It’s a bit of a limb but you could even say “payment seems to be running over 90 days at the moment, fyi”. The flip side of that is if your normal suppliers start requiring deposits and or full payment in advance, PTB may tell you to find new suppliers so, yeah, time to get another job.

      I don’t think the owners of the company are being stubborn but have instead run out of road. They are either far in the red OR they have a large cash flow issue but aren’t able to extend their line of credit to solve it. Money generally is pretty cheap atm so there’s not advantage to stringing creditors along if you have any other choice.

    3. Graciosa*

      Nothing.

      They are not going to listen to you – forget that idea and move on.

      This is not a situation where they are unaware of what’s happening – it’s deliberate. Management has made its own decisions about how to handle the company’s financial problems, and in this case it involves not paying creditors. You’re not going to change their minds by pointing out what they already know.

      I’m glad they’re making payroll at the moment – and if you think about it, you probably don’t want management to skip payroll in order to pay suppliers – but there’s a troubling chance that won’t last much longer. I hope you’re already doing everything humanly possible to get out of there. You mentioned leaving for another job, but didn’t specify whether you have one lined up already. If you don’t, make this your top priority.

      Also, get anything personal you care about out of the office, including anything fair for you to take from your work computer (copies of performance reviews, for example). Assume that you could show up any day to find yourself locked out of the office (whether by the landlord or due to a bankruptcy filing) and make sure you’re prepared if that happens.

      Good luck.

  143. Anonymous Educator*

    Not directly related to my everyday workplace, but I recently went to a tech conference that was heavily male, and the speakers kept erasing the few women there by making statements about how “You’re the IT guy” or “If you’re the Mac dude.” I called out one speaker, who apologized, but at a certain point it’s just too much, and you can’t call at every single time. One random person (I didn’t catch whom) actually said “after you’ve shot your wad” (in reference to not having two conferences scheduled too close together). It was just not a good space. What do you do in those situations, when you can’t call people out every single time? It gets tiresome.

    1. zora*

      it’s a bigger picture thing that needs to be addressed, doing it individually isn’t going to work if you are the only person. I’m biased because I’m an activist but you need to organize! ;o)

      I would try to look into other conferences that have successfully done this, I hear there are some in the tech and gaming worlds that have. But you should probably try to start a conversation with some of the organizers of the conference, figure out if there is a small group willing to start working on this. Find a handful of other people (women and men) who are willing to form a committee to work on future conferences? It will take things like having the organizers release ‘guidelines’ ahead of the conference, scheduling more diverse speakers, having actual panels or meetings at the conference to discuss gender and other discrimination and how to make those changes, etc. Sorry I don’t have a magic bullet, but these things take a lot more of a comprehensive attack than one person trying to remind people to say “person” instead of “guy” :(

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Thanks. I know what you’re saying is true, but it’s just very demoralizing. I guess I’d feel more invested, too, if this was a conference I cared a lot about—it was just something my boss wanted me to go to. If it were like a Linux users group or some other thing I was just naturally interested in (not necessarily for work), I’d probably do a bit more organizing.

        1. zora*

          Yeah, I know, I’m sorry. I am also the person who can’t stand hearing stuff like this and I have an urge to speak up Every. Single. Time. It’s really not fair.

          If you are not that invested, I would still find someone in charge of organizing that you can lodge this complaint with, preferably in writing. You don’t know, maybe other people have also complained, it could help someone who does want to change it to at least have one more data point.

          And the other thing you could do is post some kind of ‘review’ of the conference that mentions this on a relevant board or site (glassdoor/yelp style). In my sector there are some pages where people talk about specific conferences. Then you could feel like you at least did what you could, and can let it go and move on with a clear conscience.

          And i am so sorry you had to deal with this, it is so enraging. :o(

  144. zora*

    speaking of the “how long have you been looking?” Issue from the other day. I was laid off last spring, and spent several months not looking because I was extremely burned out and also dealing with some depression and anxiety as a result of the toxic job. Then I started temping again while continuing my job hunt. When I am interviewing now, if they ask about the gap, can I say something like “I took some time off to deal with family stuff”? Even though it was really my mental stuff more than anything? Or should I just say “took some personal time”? I keep stressing about how specific I should be if it comes up. I feel like directly saying “burnout” would not sound good to an interviewer.

    1. The IT Manager*

      I recommend “took some time off” or “took the opportunity for an extended vacation.”. I don’t recommend family stuff – they may wonder if you’ll have more family stuff come up in the future.

      Although if you’re marking the tempting on your resume several months isn’t a long gap.

      1. JPV*

        “I don’t recommend family stuff – they may wonder if you’ll have more family stuff come up in the future.”

        Co-signed!

        Every single time I’ve hired someone who mentions “taking time off for family stuff” in an interview, they turn out to need time off (often with little/no advance notice) for “family emergencies” ALL. THE. TIME. Depending on the workplace culture and needs, that may not be a deal breaker at the places you’re interviewing… but it is something prospective employers notice.

        1. zora*

          Would “a medical issue that is cleared up now” be better? It is technically true (depression and anxiety).

          To be honest, it was about 8 months totally not working and I worry that the 7 months temping will sort of count against me as a time when I should have had a real job. So, I’m worried it’s too long to just say “took a break” and that will seem excessive and like there must be a bigger problem going on.

          1. you're fired*

            I got fired from a seriously toxic job after less than a year and didn’t find a new job for about 6 months. It’s not on my resume because I have literally NOTHING positive to say about the whole experience, so there’s about a one-year gap on my resume. If an interviewer ever asked about it, I’d be deliberately vague and say something like “I took some time off”… but I’ve had several interviews since then and no one has ever said anything about it.

  145. Jessen*

    What’s the female equivalent of khakis and a polo? I’ve never liked the look on women so much myself, but I’m in a field where that seems to be what the guys wear.

    1. AnotherFed*

      I think the equivalent is still khakis and a polo – everywhere I’ve worked where khakis and polos were the field gear, that’s what everyone wore, regardless of gender. If you don’t like the way polos look on you, you can dress it up with something more blouse-like or down with a nice tee.

      But if you do change your mind on polos, the awesome, breathable, sweat-wicking ones are finally becoming widely available in women’s cuts! It’s amazing what a difference that makes in July weather!

      1. Jessen*

        I just find that at least what’s available here, polo shirts for women aren’t made fitted (if they’re made at all). I have curves and polo shirts just do not flatter my figure. They look baggy and messy and I don’t fancy spending money on tailoring.

        That and honestly I hate dress pants. See the curves part – either they’re indecently tight over my hips and rear, or I can stick my fist down the waist and they’re too baggy in the leg. I don’t wear pants if I can avoid it.

        1. AnotherFed*

          It sounds like you’ve been shopping for office-type khakis and polos and not field-type gear, so I think I misread gear for your field as field gear in your original post.

          It’s possible field pants/polos might help you out anyway – they’re generally cut to handle movement and practical body shapes rather than stick figure people. The downside is they can be expensive, and field pants always look like field pants rather than strict office wear. The bonus upside is they’re pretty close to indestructible, shed wrinkles and dirt like crazy, and actually have useful pockets. You can find them in most sporting goods/outdoors stores.

        2. Graciosa*

          You might want to rethink your position on tailoring.

          Yes, it increases the cost per pants – and it takes time even after you find a good tailor – but the alternative is that you’re spending money on pants that you don’t want to wear at all. Three pairs of pants that are tailored to fit and wearable are a better investment than four pairs of pants that don’t fit.

          Regarding polo shirts, you may have to work a bit to find the best fit you can. I have one brand that I purchase that suits my shape and is fitted for women, which is a nice change after polo shirts that were either tight around the bust or voluminous below it. You may need to work to find something that suits you – or, again, you can get these tailored.

          If you’re choosing among badly fitted alternatives, the shoulders and bust are harder for a tailor to fix than an overly-generous cut near the waist.

          You might also look to see whether basic cotton shirts are a workable alternative. There are lots of options for women that are a bit more casual than a man’s dress shirt – casual stripes, elbow length sleeves, for example – that might be a possibility if you really can’t bear polo shirts. Look around at how others in the company dress before making a decision. If managers in the company wear dress shirts, this will be less of a stretch than if polos and khakis are a clear uniform at multiple levels.

          There are risks in making it obvious that you refuse to conform to one of the cultural norms of a company, so you need to be thoughtful an deliberate in your decision. If your real objection is just the fit, you would probably do better to rethink your opposition to tailoring.

          1. Jessen*

            What I’ve seen within my field (academic, so we’re thinking more professional conferences here) is that what guys wear seems to be between khakis and a polo and slacks and a dress shirt.

            Part of my problem with shirts is that my shoulders and my bust aren’t the same size. Too big waists aren’t the big issue – the big issue is that by the time shirts are big enough to fit my bust, the bustline is hanging down too low and the shoulders are falling off.

            I’m not making enough money to go to nice stores either or to get tailoring. I’m working at walmart trying to get back into my field – spending lots of money on clothing just isn’t an option.

            1. Graciosa*

              I have my casual clothes tailored, and it’s less expensive than you may think (or than I thought before I started having it done) so check out the prices before making a final decision. If you’re buying at Walmart very cheaply, it may be that the ratio is a little different (instead of spending for four and getting three with tailoring, it may be three and two or two and one) but the fundamental point holds.

              Alternatively, you could do this yourself much less expensively, for the cost of needle and thread as well as the time to practice the skills. Try first with something you’re about to throw out – then you can take it apart and practice putting it together with some alteration without worrying about ruining your clothes. It can be done with determination as long as you don’t give up when it doesn’t come out the way you want it to.

              Good luck.

              1. Jessen*

                I’ve just never seen polos and khakis on women that didn’t look, well, sort of messy. To my mind, in women’s fashion, that’s what you wear to work at walmart or other low-wage jobs. It just doesn’t look professional at all. It does on guys, but I’ve never seen a woman in that outfit that didn’t look very casual to me.

      2. zora*

        I think the equivalent is simple dresses or simple skirt with a basic shirt.

        My preference is jersey dresses with a waist line but an A-line skirt. They are super comfortable, don’t require a lot of work to get ready in the morning, and look pulled together.

        Another look I’ve seen is knee-length straight skirts, often in khaki-like material, with a simple cotton shirt. It depends on your style a little bit, can you describe more what your ideal dressing style is for casual clothes and maybe people will have more specific ideas? I hear you, though, it is weird that business casual dressing for women is so much more complicated than that for men. I wish it was designed more with us in mind, so it wouldn’t take so much work to find appropriate outfits!

        For shirts that I like, look for a “utility shirt” or a “camp shirt” They are usually button-front shirts, but made in a more causal cotton material. I feel like they tend to fit me better, and skim over the waist, but look more dressy than a T-shirt.

        1. zora*

          Also I buy the vast majority of my office basics at Target and Old Navy. And many of my shirts are from Kohls. You have to know what you are looking for, but I havent’ had to spend a lot for business casual pieces.

        2. Jessen*

          Usually for me, casual is a skirt and and a t-shirt or some sort of blouse, depending on my mood. I don’t really wear pants if I can help it, unless I’m doing something liable to get dirty. I tend to have a bit of a goth thing going in my attire, though for things like conferences I restrict that to dark colors and lacy prints.

          1. zora*

            Sorry, I know this is a late reply so you might not see it. But then I think what you are wearing is totally the equivalent and I wouldn’t worry about pants at all. You’re fine. I would say that almost any skirt that is non-denim, non-distressed, not sweatpants material and not too short, with any shirt that is also non-distressed and doesn’t have inappropriate words on it, is the equivalent of khakis and polo shirts on guys. It is more confusing for women, I think, because there are more options, but this is one of the options in my opinion. I hope you can stop worrying and enjoy wearing what makes you comfortable. ;o)

  146. anon for this*

    I hope it’s not too late but I’m in a tricky situation

    My company got bought out and so we all basically got laid off from the old company. Some of us were hired into the new company. I have a co-worker that doesn’t know that he’s not being re-hired and I’m replacing him. He’s contacted me a few times to figure out what’s going on. I hate leaving him in the dark, but I can’t be the one to tell him can I? So far I’ve just given vague answers and directed him to our supervisor. Is there anything I can do for him or do I have to stay out of it?

    1. Krystal*

      Stay out of it. Do not jeopardize your own future at the new company by giving him the scoop.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’d stay out of it, it’s not your place to spread around information about lay offs. Although it’s really crappy that you know and he doesn’t maybe you could talk to the manager and ask them what you should be saying to him or when they might make an announcement to the reset of the staff

  147. Krystal*

    So … dealing with our Marketing department – how do non-Marketing people handle? I’m a lawyer who has planned a few events, and I have been asked by Marketing more than once to provide them with photos and a writeup of these events. When I decline (because Not My Job), they act disappointed and annoyed that I didn’t do their job for them. Even though they had details and stats so they could have shown up, and I’m far too busy to do that.

    I’m inclined to point out that they could actually show up if they want to market these events, but I don’t know if there have been others with these issues with marketing. I don’t feel very sympathetic to them missing opportunities when they’re out the door at 4:59 every day.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      We need to do a Marketing V Non Marketing discussion in next week’s open thread. A similar disconnect/oppositional relationship discussion broke off the other week and I was thinking I wanted to post the topic this week anyway. Then I got distracted by my own hiring issues.

      Short answer, as a marketing-but-more-hats-than-that person, what I hear tell is that your experience is common. IDK why marketing, in many companies, seems to have an oppositional relationship with other departments, but that’s the feedback that broke out the other week. And that’s my experience in talking to Not Marketing people in other companies. Many have an eye roll when talking about their marketing dept.

      FWIW, I don’t think your marketing dept is out of line in requesting photos and I don’t think you’re out of line in saying “wish I could but too many things going on. if photos are important to you, you need to send someone to take pictures”. Right? If you are there and you can get photos from the event, smartphones don’t need a photographer, that’s the most efficient way to do it. But, if you can’t, and you tell them, then marketing needs to decide if that’s important enough for them to send someone.

      Marketing is (usually) good for everyone. You’re a lawyer so increasing the visibility of your firm and especially your own personal profile is a very good thing. Giving your marketing dept material to publicize you is to your benefit. Once you hand them material, they still have to do something with it, so it’s not necessarily doing their job for them.

      (To your marketing dept I’d say, can you please do a better job in eliciting cooperation from people. You shouldn’t have to come on the internet to be convinced of the benefit to you in cooperating with marketing. They should have done that proactively.)

    2. A Marketing Manager*

      Speaking from the perspective of a marketer, no, providing photos and write-ups is not usually doing our job for us. That’s the base material we need in order to DO our jobs.

      I can’t speak for this team in particular (I don’t know many marketers who actually leave on time), but asking for that material directly from you could be because they’re not lawyers themselves and so need the professional lens you have to get the right stuff.

      It sounds to me like you have far more frustration for this team than this kind of incident, though, so relationship building is probably step one. Setting boundaries is the key to any good relationship. :)

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Marketing should be able to explain why they need something and get people on board with their mission. I spend half my personal energy on internal marketing some weeks. I run into things like this post so much, fortunately not in my company.

        Nobody nobody nobody outside of marketing understands marketing, what the hell it is that we do and why the hell it is that we do it, unless we educate. And convince. And market.

        A lawyer running an event should have plug and play options to get her event publicized.

  148. Desk Cleaner*

    How should I clean out my desk if I am transferring to a new position in a different department within a company?

    Currently I have office supplies that my old department has ordered for me because I did a supply request; manuals of company information and software usage guides; and notes and examples on how to do my old tasks.

    So which ones should I keep and which should I leave on my old desk after I leave?

    I kind of wanted to keep everything.

    1. SevenSixOne*

      I’d move it all to my new desk without a second thought.

      If you want to keep everything, is there any reason you can’t?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I would keep everything. Are departments at your organization very territorial about assets?

      1. Desk Cleaner*

        I am new to moving from one department to another. I want to make sure that I am doing the right ediquette.

        I just wonder if the supplies my old department got for me are actually considered belonging to the department or is it supplies I can take to my new workstation no matter what department I will be within the company.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I would just ask your old department. “Hey, mind if I take these with me?” If they mind, they’ll say “No, we bought those on our budget, and the next person could use those,” and you leave the supplies. If they say “Take ’em. They’ll be more useful to you,” then you take the supplies.

  149. Seeking Advice*

    I applied for a seasonal job at a federal organization (that is well-known in the US). This job is in one of the southern states right on the border. The job requires a military-esque uniform complete with badge. Anyway, my application has been sent to the hiring official according to my online account with them. Please note this is not a border control position.

    The job I know I can do. I have done it elsewhere. However, now that I’m moving along in the process, I have people telling me that I should not take this job, that it is in a dangerous areal they tell me of people in this organization having been shot in other places the organization has in the border states (although reading online it doesn’t say that this particularly location has had that problem). These people are friends and current coworkers. Then I spoke with another coworker. He said he knew someone who worked there a few years ago and loved the job. Taking this job could/would expand my opportunities further in this national organization.

    I was talking with my mom the other night about it. I asked her directly if she would prefer me to: 1. Take the job and see what it’s all about, or 2. Stay home in my off-season dead-end job (in a mom-and-pop store, making pennies over minimum wage). She answered #2. My coworker said that life is about living and taking a risk; he’ll tell you how he had an incident happen just around the block from his apartment, thousands of miles away from where I applied to. For myself, I have walked the city streets of foreign countries by myself with nothing to worry, but yet I can’t go to someplace in my own country? Ok, so that is a bit of venting on that last sentence.

    So my question is…what would you do? Please note that I do not have the job, let alone have been called by the hiring manager.

    1. AnotherFed*

      Before you decide, look up the actual statistics for incidents. If it’s federal employees, chances are that data is available somewhere. People often remember one or a few really terrible, well-publicized incidents but don’t have a good grasp of how long ago it was or how many incidents there were compared to national average or even to the size of the organization. As an example, say your mother has noticed that there’s a car crash every week over at the military base you’d work out of, and it must be bad because it screws up traffic, but if there are 3600 people at that base, that says maybe a hundred people are involved in car crashes in a year, or about 3% of the base population, which tracks with the national statistics for car crashes.

      Once you’re informed, you can decide whether the risk is one you’re willing to take or not. Personally, as long as the odds weren’t too ridiculous, I’d take the job, but I’d rather have more risk and more interesting work than safe but boring work.

  150. LibrarianJ*

    I may have missed the boat on this week’s thread, but just in case…

    I’m getting married in a week (yay!) and going to be changing my name. It sounds like it will probably be 2-3 weeks after the wedding before my name is legally changed (not to mention processed by HR). Additionally, my department’s administrative assistant has just gone out on medical leave for at least a month, so it may be quite a while before I can get business cards, office sign, etc. (I don’t know that anyone else will be handling these things, and given the circumstances I’m frankly embarrassed to even have thought about it). However, I work in academia and will probably start hearing from faculty for school-year requests in about 2 weeks, and I’d prefer to get them used to my new name immediately. Would it be inappropriate for me to (1) begin using my new name in my signature (so, “Librarian (MaidenName) NewName “) and/or (2) include my new name in a couple upcoming publication submissions, before it actually has legal force?

    Also, is it fine to legally change my name when my cards, sign, nametag, etc. might not reflect that for another couple of months, or should I hold off for professional consistency?

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      You can use any name you choose social or professionally, whether it matches your legal name or not. To avoid confusion, I’d recommend shooting an email to HR and CCing your boss at the same time, saying that your new name is _____________ and that you will begin using it effective immediately/[date], and perhaps briefly addressing that the signage and business cards may take a little while to catch up. If your submissions for publication include any sort of reference checking, you might be wise to give the reviewers a heads-up that you were previously known as ________________ at your job. Still, include the name you want published on your submission materials everywhere you normally would have your name.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I didn’t even legally change my name to my spouse’s, but at my last job I used hers professionally, and it was no biggie.

  151. Billy*

    There have been times where I felt like walking off the job…I almost did it tonight.

  153. Cruciatus*

    In preparation for my interviewS(!) tomorrow, I am going over strengths and weaknesses. I have some I can fall back on that are OK in a truthful yet bland kind of way. Is this too honest of a weakness? If you asked my current boss (who does really like me, constantly praises me) what he would change about me, if anything, I think he would prefer that I been more enthusiastic about a project (probably 30% of my job) being revamped (with me doing the revamping). We were to move case studies from hard copy to web designer software. I had never worked with this software and was only told by IT to “play around with it.” But eventually, after talking to my boss about my concerns, he found someone experienced in the software at another campus and I got some hands-on training and since I’ve been working on it, I’ve been able to even give my trainer a few pointers on common issues.

    Does this work? I hate to ever sound non-enthusiastic but I really wasn’t. But it’s OK now. If they asked my boss I feel this is the only thing he would criticize about me (and he would do it gently).

    2. fposte*

      My thought it was that it was a little spread out–I had a hard time figuring out what you were saying your actual weakness was there, and I’m not sure being unenthusiastic is quite right as a takeaway. There was a situation where your position needed to transition the format of a big part of your archives on to new software that you weren’t familiar with, is that right? And they hoped you’d self-train on the new software but you found that didn’t work for you and sought training, which you got?

      Part of my problem is that I’m not sure you were wrong here. Is this a software everybody else self-trains on? Is this a pattern with you that you work better with formal training than self-training in general or specifically to software, or was it just this time? Is there a particular reason that you didn’t want to self-teach or didn’t think it would work to do so?

      You don’t want to go too far and suggest you always need your hand held, of course. But if it’s true, “A recent work project involving InDesign made me realize I tend to fare better when I have formal training on new software. I take a lot of initiative in managing workflow and I’m happy to self-teach in most processes, but I haven’t found my groove in independently learning complex new programs” seems like a reasonable but not self-damning statement.

      1. Cruciatus*

        Thanks fposte, if you’re still reading. You’re right I wasn’t being clear–and I think that’s why I wasn’t sure of this answer. I worked on another weakness and, in the end, NEITHER interview asked them. In fact, the hardest question of the day was “What have you started and failed at?” I came up with nothing. It felt weird to say “no, I’m not perfect, but I’m just not coming up with anything at the moment…let me think let me think….” (OK, didn’t say that specifically). They offered suggestions–college? (no, finished in 3 years actually), driver’s license? (no, got it on the first try). So I will definitely have to think about this some more. In the end I could only joke that my answering that question was a bit of a fail (they seemed a lighthearted group and did not take this badly–I think). Sigh.

  154. Billy*

    I was told to apply for a public safety dispatcher ( police/fire/ems) in my city through a mutual connection. The posting was made public with the hourly rates and the requirement of working 12 hour shifts.

    I’m kind of having second thoughts on this. I have no dispatcher training,but most importantly,it takes multi-tasking to a whole new level. The pay will be better than my retail wages,but the prolonged stress is not…I don’t know…. The deadline for applicants to submit resumes is Tuesday.

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