open thread – August 21, 2015

by Alison Green on August 21, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,775 comments }

{ 1,775 comments… read them below }

    1. TGIF*

      Best: Finishing a tedious unexpected project that’s been looming over me for a couple weeks.

      Worst: Having to work at home Tuesday because of a back problem (although being at home was nice) and then being late today because of yet another bladder infection. Fourth one in four months! Oh, and a very painful interview with an internal candidate. I know, that’s three things.

      1. HR Generalist*

        Best: Feeling like I made some progress with our union and improved our working relationship; we came to agreement on an issue we were previously butting heads on.

        Worst: Large workload, feeling overwhelmed, ready for a vacation but unlikely to have time until October.

      2. Bend & Snap*

        Best: Got a big project funded.

        Worst: I haven’t had a vacation since 2011 because all my vacation goes toward having a sick kid or other obligatory things, and I’m already almost out of vacay for the year.

        1. Retail Lifer*

          I’m almost out, too. I took a week of vacay but then I had doctor’s appointments, I was sick, and I had a couple of interviews. I can’t do any more of those things this year, and it’s only August. :(

      3. Lady Bug*

        I just went through this. 5 utis in 3 months after 10 years without one. Turned out to be a kidney stone (my first). I just had it blasted last week and its getting better, I still get irritation, but its less frequent. While getting diagnosed I started cranberry pills which kept me from getting infections, but didn’t stop the irritation from the stone. At least they kept me off the antibiotics and the other lady infections they were causing. Best of luck!

        1. Save it for Sunday*

          Not work related, Lady Bug, and honestly, I’m not wanting to know about these types of personal issues on this sort of Career forum/blog.

    2. themmases*

      Best: I found out yesterday that I am getting a tuition waiver from my assistantship for the rest of my MS in epidemiology. So all together, I only had to take out loans for one semester and some summer classes of this degree, and the other three semesters I’ve managed to get tuition waivers. Both of my jobs originally didn’t come with tuition, but I stuck with my boss anyway because I liked her, liked the work, and knew she had tried to get me tuition before. My trust in her really paid off! My last job was really terrible, so it feels amazing to basically be given a tuition-sized pay increase.

      Worst: I am doing fieldwork for my other job and it is really dragging. The only places left to visit are, let’s just say, last on the list for a reason. They’re hard to get to, hard to find, and usually there is nothing there. And I’m supposed to replace any locations that don’t work out. I just want to be done!

    3. Katie the Fed*

      Best: I just fixed a personnel issue with a total win/win solution that made everyone happy!

      Worst: My new boss is a micromanager and driving me absolutely insane.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          I *think* he’ll get better – he can’t possibly keep up at this pace. But right now it’s driving me nuts. I can manage my own team, kthanxbai

    4. nameless cog in the machine*

      Best: I get to travel overnight for work for the first time next week! I’m excited, even though it will be my first night away from my baby, so that will be hard (both emotionally and in terms of milk logistics).

      Worst: Things have just been an administrative mess this week – I only found out about this trip almost too late, I spent a lot of time on the phone trying to deal with other benefits issues, and communications from higher up about fall and winter work schedules have literally reversed every single day. It does not make me feel like a valued employee, even when directly told so by my boss (who is also annoyed by all these policy reversals and bureaucratic snafus). My week ends tomorrow, I’ve barely slept in days (see: baby), and I am just having trouble making it through.

      1. Coffee, Please*

        Good luck on the logistics of being a nursing mom on an overnight trip! If you need any resources or support on pumping and storing milk, check out Kellymom.com

    5. TheExchequer*

      Best: Being treated like the goddess of all things Microsoft for knowing how to make the music play on PowerPoint through the entire presentation rather than just for one slide.

      Worst: The person training me is behaving like the Keeper of the Keys for some vital knowledge, tells me I should be asking questions, then when I go and ask her questions, she tells me to “just look it up”. I’ve only been here three weeks and that is not helpful.

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          After you insert the music, you have to go into the animation properties — which you have to do anyway to make it play automatically since the automatic setting is “On Click” — and check off “Play Across Slides” which is going to be in different places depending on version.

      2. MegEB*

        Ugh, the Keeper of the Keys personality. I used to work with an office manager that was the epitome of this (and I suppose, in a way, she WAS). She would get really territorial about certain pieces of information, and it drove everyone crazy.

      3. E*

        Can you try responding with a smile that “thanks, I’ve actually already tried that” and see if she’ll divulge the solution? If it helps, take notes in front of her so that she can see that you don’t want to have to come back and ask the same question again. Or, gather all these questions in a day and ask them at one time.

    6. Ad Astra*

      Best: Getting some big projects out of the way so I can focus on the 18 million one-off assignments I keep getting from everyone and their ferret.

      Worst: I work in one of those offices where everyone wants to know about something before it happens, everyone wants to sign off on internal communication before I post it, everyone wants to be consulted… but everyone’s in endless meetings all day and impossible to reach. Several of my relatively simple projects this week were delayed by hours because I couldn’t get 15 seconds of someone’s time.

    7. NickD*

      Worst and best are combined. Found out the federal and state agencies that oversee my local program are fed up to their ears with my boss being uncooperative, argumentative, and plain just blowing them off (a high-ish employee of the state agency passed on the information as I’m working to improve our program) It’s the worst because our agency is a joke at best. It’s the best because I at least feel like I haven’t been off base about my feelings on our program/the way my boss goes about implementing things.

      2. Managing Up....is Tricky*

        If you have the ear of decision makers (Are they coming to you? Is your funding in danger?)
        Is there a good AA or EA, that you can bring up from another department that knows the lay of the land? Filter work and communication through this person/use the assistant as a buffer to get things done/smooth over ruffled feathers. Can you hire a temporary AA or EA? Present having an admin as a perk or as a status symbol?

        Might be worth the cost, while the company figures out a long term solution or send this person to EI or Business Etiquette training for a two-day seminar.
        Good Luck with that.

        Sticky as you are not their boss.
        Resume up to date?

    8. Oatmeal*

      Best: there’s very little work to do right now, so I can take advantage of my flexible hours and spend less time in the office.

      Worst: I am completely disengaged and feel useless when I am not being used to my full capacity.

      1. Red*

        I’ve felt the same. The worst part is that a prolonged period of disuse actually has left me burned out. There were other contributing factors (lack of control over my work is a big one), but now I just lack the energy, motivation, and focus to exceed now that I am suddenly swamped with work.

        The best thing is that I am preparing to resign at the end of the year to pursue a full time writing career.

        2. cuppa*

          OMG! I thought I was the only one? Who gets burned out from not having enough to do? It’s affecting my personal life, too. I get home and have no motivation for housework.

          1. Oatmeal*

            I was surprised to find this out about myself – I really do my best work when there are tons of deadlines and a high volume of things to do. My brain has two work modes and when things get slow it quickly switches from “on” to “off”.

            …and I also hear you on it affecting your motivation to do housework too. My house is a wreck right now.

          2. Violet Rose*

            You are definitely not the only one! I know that when I, at least, get used to this pattern of “ho hum, nothing to do”, I have trouble scrounging up the motivation to do anything at all – which creates a feedback loop of lethargy which is difficult to break.

            4. meggers*

              I also call that “meggers law of inertia” – a meggers not in motion tends to stay not in motion, often even if acted upon.

          3. Red*

            Yeah, a key symptom of burnout is that it also effects your life outside of the task/role you’re burned out of. I completely sympathize. It’s been hard to work on writing, which is something I have a passion for; even harder to take care of the duller but important things like cleaning… Ugh. Of course, that makes a negative feedback loop too. I’ve been working hard to police myself there. My partner has been understanding and helpful, and watching my burnout progress has made him come around to supporting me becoming self-employed.

      2. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Ditto, for both best and worst. I love the relaxed pace, but I feel more useful and appreciated when I have more to do.

    9. cuppa*

      Best: One of my great staff members is moving on to something bigger and better. I’m sad, but I’m really proud of her.
      Worst: A snarky e-mail from my manager that makes me feel unappreciated and like a child. :(

    10. Sascha*

      Best: free breakfast food, bacon included, at work.

      Worst: My manager asked for some graphic design work 2 days before an event that has been scheduled for weeks. 1) Though I used to do graphic design, it’s not part of my job now – like way outside the scope of this position – but I’m pretty much the only person in the department right now who knows how to use Photoshop 2) 2 days is not sufficient notice for me to pull together polished-looking marketing materials, or at least what I consider polished-looking.

      Overall not too bad, but it raises my design hackles when non-designer people are like, just throw something together! how hard can it be!! (see also: My teenage niece/nephew has Paint and could do that.)

      1. T3k*

        Ugh, I hate when people are like that, and if I had a dollar for every time a customer or stranger told me it was “easy work” my student loans would probably be halfway paid for.

        I’m a graphic designer but I work for a printing business, so we get some artwork that comes in from the outside that we have to make print ready. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had someone be all “here’s my design!” and they submit a low quality picture when I need a vector format, or they submit a vector format but you can tell they don’t know how to really use the program because when I ask them to outline the fonts so we can use the file they go “…outline? What’s that?”

      2. Clever Name*

        “My teenage niece/nephew has Paint and could do that.”

        “Great! Then have them do it!”

      3. Anony-moose*

        THIS IS ME RIGHT NOW.

        I’m not a graphic designer. I took a graphic design class in high school. I’ve used photoshop and indesign under supervision from ACTUALLY designers. But I have a halfway decent eye and can bluster through Publisher.

        Which means I’m the graphic designer for our organization. And I’ve spent three days on a project that is literally sucking the life out of me.

        Sigh.

    11. The Other CrazyCatLady*

      Best: It’s Friday!

      Worst: We just found out that despite not being entirely done with a change from one system to another, we’re being forced to do so to yet another system. The higher-ups have known this was happening for months and didn’t say anything. And yet we’re supposed to be the people who know the systems inside and out, we’re the people OTHER people are supposed to go to with questions. And we haven’t had a chance to even SEE the new system. There’s literal concern for jobs now, since the last change over was awful and we lost a lot of clients over it and we will have no voice in this upcoming change, so we fully expect to lose a bunch more clients yet again.

    12. Nashira*

      Best: I am now up to two stretch positions I’ve applied for, and it’s really galvanizing me to finish studying for a couple of credentials. I’m not sure I’ll get any bites but applying is a big step for me.

      Worst: My boss has been out all week because her adult kid almost died. We’re all scared for them.

    13. Shell*

      Best: that it’s almost over? Oh, and I have some superb coworkers who save my neck with a smile. “No worries, we’re a team” was said more than once. I should bring them some cookies.

      Worst: due to drama in my personal life and not a lot of sleep, this week at work has been an endless stream of “How many small, easily-preventable, dumb mistakes can Shell make in a five-minute span?!” I was this close to facepalming a hole right through my own head on Wednesday.

      Going to go do some retail therapy at the two-dollar store this weekend. Sigh.

    14. LBK*

      Worst: Got a last-minute request to complete a huge report yesterday that I hadn’t even started since I thought I had more time to do it, and naturally the system I needed to pull the data was being a PITA since nothing ever works when you need it ASAP!

      Best: Still managed to finish every yesterday as requested and the requester was extremely grateful, which is great since he’s one of our higher ups in the sales division and coming through on this project will give me a ton of visibility.

    15. Emmie*

      Best: Completed employee performance reviews. Had a budget – albeit modest – to reward employee.

      Worst: Constant last minute project changes in commitments mean I’m working a lot of hours over the weeekend, and juggling multiple on fire projects. But, I will get this done!

    16. SanguineAspect*

      Best: Monday to Friday this week FLEW by, so suddenly it’s the weekend.

      Worst: I’m working with 2 tech architects at my company on a few different project. Arch 1 (Josh) is working on one project with me and Arch 2 (Matt) is working on 2 projects with me. They’re in meetings with me all the time. This last week, I have been CONSTANTLY calling Josh “Matt” on calls. It’s to the point where they’ve both been teasing me about it, I KNOW I’ve been doing it, and I’m still doing it. It’s like my brain has wires crossed.

      They’re both really smart guys, sound kind of similar, and are from the same remote office, so I rarely work with them face-to-face. To complicate matters, the two projects Josh is with me on have clients named “Matt” — so that makes things even more confusing when I’m on a call and asking “Matt” a question (meaning Josh), and the clients are also confused. It’s to the point where I second-guess myself any time I’m about to say one of their names out loud, which is kind of weird. I’ve never had this problem before.

      1. SanguineAspect*

        And I got it backwards even in this post. Josh is working on two projects with me and Matt is working on one… O.O

        1. mutt*

          This happened to me so much, I finally wrote out what project and who was on it (lead / team / clients) so I could keep it straight. Finally solved the prob.

          Therefore, I totally agree with Kyrielle; write it down someplace highly visible, maybe use different colors for Josh/Matt. Good luck!

      2. Kyrielle*

        You could create a note card with each name on it and have the appropriate one in front of you for each call?

        Otherwise, much sympathy. I’m terrible with names, and I’m pretty sure I’d have trouble in that scenario too.

      4. SanguineAspect*

        Thanks mutt and Kyrielle for the advice! I think having something to look at when I’m on calls with their names might really help.

    17. Kyrielle*

      Best: figured out how to get two pieces of code working (mostly) on my own! Still learning the new systems, so I’m feeling pretty good about not having to ask lots of questions to find what I needed.

      Worst: dragging myself in on two separate days not feeling well. (Not contagious – one due to a chronic issue and a poor choice of food the night before, the other one because we were flying back from a weekend vacation and our flight was delayed and I got to bed at midnight. I need my sleep. So it goes!)

    18. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Best: It’s over.

      Worst: New leadership + last minute information requests + “the project is on…no wait it’s cancelled…nope on again” + vital team members taking key days off. ARGH.

    19. SL*

      Best: quiet-ish week because our major event was last week (and went off without a hitch, might I add).
      Worst: …the traffic this week now that school’s started and everyone’s home from vacation. UGH.

    20. Kelly L.*

      Best: free food this morning (and it was good!) and it’s Friday!

      Worst: Intra-department sniping

    21. Lily in NYC*

      Best: I’m going on vacation next week (for two whole weeks!)
      Worst: It will be in FL. Florida in August is a special level of hell.

      1. NJ Anon*

        We used to vacay in Florida all the time. It was just as hot in NJ as it was in FL. At least you are on vacation!

        1. Lily in NYC*

          It is way hotter in FL than NY in Aug. and Sept.. The heat index at my mom’s house is 117 degrees right now. It is going to be in the low 80s in NY next week. I want to stay home!

          1. Ad Astra*

            Do you have access to a pool or beach? I don’t mind the heat when I’m on vacation and can spend my time swimming, tanning, or wearing shorts. But going about my daily life in that kind of heat is really unpleasant.

            1. Lily in NYC*

              Both! We have a pool and are less than a mile from the beach. I’m just being cranky because my mom is trying to make tons of plans for me to see people I don’t care at all about and barely know (I didn’t grow up there; my parents retired there).

    22. anon for this*

      Best: A former mentor of mine introduced me to her former assistant, who’s interested in freelancing for us, so I’m going to help her get started. I’ve always felt lucky to have had wonderful people who believe in me and helped me get where I am in my career, and I have a desire to pay it forward, but given my “cool” field this tends to result in me wasting time on ingrates… so I’m happy that I might actually be able to help someone this time, and gain a new freelancer!

      Worst: A contractor charged us a higher rate than was originally agreed upon, then flipped out when I called him on it and said he’d been unhappy with us for misrepresenting the work we send him and if we didn’t pay the higher rate, he couldn’t work with us again. Fine, but this is also the only person my boss likes to have work on his projects (I have others who I think are just as good but he’s only criticized them). I’m pretty sure I inadvertently stepped in something that was already going on between them, but. Arrrgh.

      1. Polka Dot Bird*

        Wow, randomly charging more at the end is not a good way to respond to that problem. Ugh. I feel your pain.

    23. Clever Name*

      Best: I’m leaving early for lunch and shopping

      Worst: I can leave early because I’ve been working 10-12 hour days and am just done this week. Everyone in my office is going nuts with stress. We are way too busy and we are growing too fast and nobody can keep up. I’m trying to hang in there, but I’m considering looking at other jobs.

    24. Ihmmy*

      Best: we had a day out of the office for team building and brainstorming and stuff
      Worst: see above. It was good but SOOO social, introverted me was just feeling wrecked afterward and ended up skipping the company bbq because the thought of being near people was too much to manage

    26. araminty*

      Best: I resigned on Wednesday. Hurray! I’d been down on this job for many months, for lots of reasons. But it finally got to a place where I’d had more than enough, and the program is is adequate shape that it can continue operations while my organization’s glacial hiring to replace me goes on.

      Worst: I have to do some serious-soul searching about my work life. I’m TERRIBLE at working. I mean, I DO good work, I have the awards and raises to prove it (to myself and others). I’m thinking for the first time about starting my own business, having dismissed the idea in the past as I’m so un-entrepreneurial. But the idea of having something scalable really appeals, that I can take on more when I’m able and back off when I need a break… that sounds great.

      So maybe I’m retraining as a dog trainer?? Any thoughts about the Karen Pryor Academy?

    27. Monodon monoceros*

      Best: it’s Friday

      Worst: Huge international corporation with 3 billion dollars in profit in the 1st quarter just informed me that they are backing out of their commitment to provide funds for our international symposium that is happening in less than 2 months because of the “changing business climate ” The amount they were supposed to give was so tiny for them but is huge to us. Grrrrr….

    28. Dr. Doll*

      Worst — hitting the send button with the wrong email address in the to: line. Had to send a major apology and have not heard back from the person. I have never before in my life done that.

      Best — got a nice compliment from the person who handles the budgets in our area. My work is “clear and thorough.”

    29. Amber Rose*

      Best: sucked it up and did two things I’d been dreading, neither of which were that bad.

      Worst: the coworker who got fired screwed up a lot of stuff before he left, and we’ve been cleaning up his mess all week. We’ll probably be finding his mess ups for a while yet.

    30. the gold digger*

      Worst: Added a new tag to sharepoint term store. Realized it was redundant to a tag that already existed. Deleted tag. Wait. Deleted existing tag, not new tag. Had to sort through a few hundred documents to re-tag everything. Hope I got it all. Still feeling sick to my stomach.

      Best: Saw an internal announcement: “X is a career engineering professional who brings over 30 years of …. experience”

    31. Hlyssande*

      Best: Renaissance Festival starts this weekend!!!!!

      Worst: Renaissance Festival starts this weekend!!!!!

      Okay, but seriously. The worst is finding a huge dealbreaker problem in a build that’s almost to production that I feel like I should have caught in the previous test instance. I am so frustrated with myself over this. It works when done manually in the database, it works with a data load into the database, but it doesn’t work via the application we use to have people request for creations or updates in the database.

      I talked to the PM for it and he assured me that it wasn’t something he would’ve caught either – it was totally a lucky break to catch while we were testing another thing. Just like the other issue I found yesterday, totally found by luck. He says that as long as he has me on the testing team, he feels secure in that we will find the majority, if not all, of the issues. That’s super flattering, but doesn’t make me less annoyed about not finding things.

      Also, fest will be utterly exhausting. As of Monday the 17th, I will only have one day off (between work-work and fest volunteer work) until Oct 5th. Good luck, me! No throwing any patrons in the quarry!

        1. Hlyssande*

          MNRF! The only place in the world it will be muddy and dusty at the same time!

          I still have a scarf to find, lunches to pack, and some light apartment cleaning to do in prep for friends arriving tonight (I live 10 minutes from site), but I’m ready!

          And of course, a 7am conference call was just scheduled for Monday morning…

          1. PhoenixBurn*

            Hope you had a great weekend and enjoyed the fest! It sounds like you managed to come out on top!

      2. Hlyssande*

        Also, update regarding the dealbreaker build issue I found. They already put a fix together and we just tested it successfully in the dev environment. Huzzah!

        And we already found a non-code and easily fixable reason for the other big issue I found this week, so I’m just waiting on a response from my contacts in Dubai and Manila so I can implement whichever one is correct. Also huzzah! (20 pounds for the Queen!)

    32. Colorado Girl*

      Worst: Having a staff of three in a company with only 10 employees (including PT and IT consultants) and finding out that employee #1 (your stellar CSR) inherited a bunch of money, no longer needs to save to for the kids’ college fund and has decided to quit, finding out that employee #2 (the person you hired several months ago to replace your old position) has to take medical leave for at least a month while employee number #3 has planned surgery coming up next month. Oh, and we’re about to launch a whole new CRM system in the next few weeks!

      Best: It’s only 10:30a on Friday – there’s still time to find it!

    33. nep*

      ‘Would-have-been-a ‘best’-if-I-could-keep-it’ : An inexplicable extra $200-plus dollars in my pay today.

    34. Bea W*

      Worst: Recent system upgrade/change broke things. They are fixed now…maybe.

      Best: We’re finally getting some good resumes. The last batch was awful. The temp agency just didn’t get it.

    35. anon for this*

      Can I put in a request to stop the best/worst of the week in the work-related thread? It takes space away from giving/getting advice which is the point of these threads and today it made me wade through 60+ comments to get to the next post topic.

        1. nep*

          +1
          ‘Collapse replies’ takes care of it for those who’d rather have it out of the way — Reckon some people like this feature in the Fri / work open thread.

        2. Today's anon*

          It would be nice to also have a “collapse within the thread” thing too because for the really long comments, things get hard to follow and also some sub-threads are not always as interesting and it would be nice to skip them.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        You know, I’ve actually thought about this — it can be daunting when people see 500+ comments on the post before they’ve even opened it, and when the best/worst makes up such a sizable portion of those, I agree it’s something to think about. Maybe we reserve it for the weekend non-work thread instead?

        1. Christy*

          Perhaps defaulting to collapsed comments for the open threads? I would appreciate that, as I do it automatically anyway.

          And personally, I enjoy best/worst for work stuff.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            It’s tough to do with this system, unfortunately. (When you’ve seen it set up that way on other sites, it’s probably with outside commenting systems like Disqus or Intense Debate. Adding it here would make things a bit messy: The site would still need to load the full page of comments before collapsing them, which would cause issues for people on slow connections because you’d be reading comments and then suddenly they’d collapse once the page finished loading.)

        2. Heather*

          I have a hard time keeping up with these open threads anyhow. I like to read the work ones because there is some good stuff in there but I find it hard to navigate even without the best/worst stuff.

        3. Turanga Leela*

          Mostly related: Alison, I had a dream this week that you were fed up with all our comments, and you asked us if we could please keep it under 60 per post. You said wouldn’t delete our comments, though; we were just on the honor system to only post if it was REALLY important.

          I had completely forgotten until I saw this discussion.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            That is hilarious, because I did fleetingly wonder earlier this week if there would ever be a point where comments should close after a certain number of them (much higher than 60) though. I decided no, but that’s pretty weird timing for you to dream that!

            (Also, I love the honor system part there. Comments 62-75 would be people chastising commenter 61 for going over 60.)

        5. CIVICSGRATE*

          Have you considered opening the work and non-work open threads up at the same time on Friday? I really don’t know what, if any, difference it might make. It might make the threads grow more slowly and evenly (ie, come Sunday evening, instead of 800 work and 400 non-work comments, it might be more like 600 work and 600 non-work comments). Or not.

          1. fretnone*

            This is interesting. I’ve been finding that I want to ask questions/comment in the non-work open threads, but since I mostly read AAM at work (as it seems many of us do), the activity is all but over by the weekdays.

            Obviously this is not speaking for everyone as the weekend threads are very active, but it has crossed my mind many times!

      3. mutt*

        You can “Collapse 64 replies” skip ANY thread you don’t want to see. Just look for the arrow at the bottom of the very first post. Easy!

        I love the Best/Worst and look forward to it weekly, but I tend to collapse other things that stress me out, etc. Works great.

    36. INFJ*

      Best: Getting really flattering feedback from the managers in my department 4 months in on the new job.

      Worst: Nightmare crowds and massive delays at the train station yesterday resulted in a 2.5 hour commute home :-/

    37. matcha123*

      Best: Not much work in the office.

      Worst: Knowing that while my coworkers value my contribution and (seem to) think highly of my work that everything I do will not be considered by any future employer because I’m a contract employee with no ability to lead or propose projects. *sigh*

    38. NJ Anon*

      Best: It’s FRIDAY!
      Worst: Dealing with the State on a contract renewal. They are driving us nuts!

    39. Anna*

      Best: Vacation in two weeks and successful launch of mentoring program at work that I somehow became in charge of, despite having a committee (maybe that’s a worst) but I plan on claiming that for myself.

      Worst: New director is hard to read and my boss (the boss over everyone) is sort of pushing us to work together and I’m not entirely sure what’s up. I’m reminding myself that he and I have different approaches and that he’s as new now to this industry as I was two years ago.

    40. Ethan*

      Best: 6 weeks out from trade show I plan (well, really, two of us plan) and got whole lot done this week, AND was able to give lots of important stuff to my new intern, because she’s one of the good ones.

      Worst: Realized I should have started graphics for badges two weeks ago an hour ago.

    41. LiveAndLetDie*

      Best: A problem employee who was scheduled to have a (not great) performance review next week (including probationary measures and improvement plans) quit this week to go back to school, so that’s a weight off my shoulders.

      Worst: The restrooms for the floor of the building my office is on continue to be disgusting at all times thanks to the school on the other end of the building. The restroom isn’t big enough to handle the volume of people that move through there now that there are classes of students that come in every two hours, and the building’s maintenance team seems to barely be able to manage it. I end up taking the extra time to go up to other floors to use the restroom.

    42. AE*

      Best: Keeping my composure all week long
      Worst: People who procrastinate or spend endless amounts of time pondering what to do or screw around and then don’t meet deadlines on multiple projects and make excuses, but that’s kind of a daily thing around here.

      Note to self: gotta stop setting Friday deadlines! It’s too aggravating!

    43. Ruffingit*

      BEST: Took the day off today. Really needed it.

      Worst: I’ll be the only person in the office next week who can work with clients since my colleague will be on vacation. That will be exhausting.

    44. zora*

      Best and Worst: I gave my notice yesterday ,and next week will be officially my last day at this temp job.

      Best because the new boss is kind of micro-manage-ey and also a know-it-all but he’s new and really doesn’t know anything, so he’s been making my life infinitely harder, and I’m glad I won’t have to work for him any more.

      Worst because I actually really liked everyone else here, and because I will be unemployed again, and I haven’t gotten any bites on a single one of my job applications lately. So, I’m trying not to panic about having zero income again. But I have to go out of town next week anyway, so I wouldn’t have been here in any case. I think it will all work out eventually…. I hope…..

    45. Coppertina*

      Best: Had a very positive interview with hiring manager of 2nd choice position on Tuesday. Got quick response to my midweek request for timeline update from hiring manager of 1st choice position. Turns out he’s been swamped and he expected to be able to update me in the next day or so (scheduling additional interviewers has stalled due to PTO, other challenges).

      Worst: I woke this morning to find that my email provider had deleted my account/mailbox overnight!!! Long story short, I own a vanity domain (lastname.com) and for many years, have paid for email address firstname@lastname.com which is my primary account. I’ve tolerated subpar performance (POP limitations, very slow webmail) but had no major issues. They spam me regularly with offers for this and that. Where this becomes a two company customer service FAIL actually traces back to June and my bank. Bank overzealously included the email renewal charge among the fraudulent purchases and later issued a chargeback. Despite my alerting them that it was valid and requested they reinstate it, they never did so. Did email provider attempt to charge the replacement card number? Nope. Did they send me a note saying, “Hey, we need some $ from you or else your e-mail goes bye-bye”? Nope, despite the fact they clearly have my address. I wasted 90 minutes on the phone this morning that I’d very much wanted to spend more productively. Nearly 6 hours ago, I was told that the mailbox restore could take up to 4 hours. Sigh. Still no email. :-(

      Sorry, I know that was a vent/rant. Thank you for providing this forum which is very therapeutic for muting anger. Ahhhh, fury and rage….these were very deeply felt emotions for me this morning as I had this vital artery of communication violently severed, and had to contemplate possible loss of vital communication threads with potential employers. I felt the embarrassment of having to send a few notes out from my gmail account saying, “In the event you’ve tried to contact me….blah, blah…please use this other email temporarily…”

      Aaaaaargh! It is probably time for me to transition to gmail for my main email account. It’s hard to continue doing business with a provider that has such an unacceptably cavalier attitude towards meeting customer needs. My bank will also be hearing from me as their sloppiness triggered the whole chain of events.

    46. Jen RO*

      Worst: Still bummed about the performance review last week, so I’m doing the bare minimum. I figure that my (almost) best got my a “meh” review and all the mediocre coworkers also got a “meh” review, so I might as well be mediocre, but relaxed. The downside is that I *like* being involved in everything, but I keep telling myself that it’s time to focus more on myself rather than helping others.

      Best: One coworker just accepted an internal position, so she will be getting away from her horrible manager and getting a 50% raise! Another coworker is interviewing and her potential job got me all excited. It’s got some downsides, so she is not 100% sold, but I am happy to see “my” juniors moving on to bigger, better things. As for me, the best job-related thing is that I am on holiday until Wednesday!

    47. Buu*

      Worst – Nothing to do at work, boss won’t admit it. Slowly going mad.

      Best – Freelance project I got hired to help on by a friend got noticed by someone both my employer and myself are huge fans of. That person makes a point to network with start ups. It’s a big win as it should hopefully push this project further and has put our names in front of someone we respect.

  2. Ashley Madison*

    Anybody read this story about Ashley Madison? (I’ll post the link separately)

    According to one article, there were 15,000 government and military email addresses registered to the site. Some were apparently fake addresses but still thousands seem to be legit. And according to another article (that I of course can’t find now) there was rampant use of work email addresses as well. Some big companies too.

    What do you think should happen to these employees? Should their employers be concerned? Should they be fired, reprimanded? Should action against the government and military employees be more severe than the others?

    On the one hand I think that it’s their private lives and if this had never become public no one would ever know. On the other hand, I think using your work email for something like this shows an incredible lack of sound judgement.

    Plus, I’m sure people are getting in tons of trouble with their spouses too.

    2. LQ*

      I haven’t been able to stop reading stories about this entire thing. It’s fascinating. And the DMCA (?) take down letters that were sent. And the thing with famous people being called out. And that they released the personal data before they released the CEO data and then saying it’s a moral thing about the set up of the company. And the gender ratios. And and and! I can’t stop reading these things.

      1. Ashley Madison*

        I was equally as fascinated when my husband mentioned it to me last night. It’s a weird mix of “Ha! That’s what you get cheaters!” and “Man, we shouldn’t be invading people’s privacy this way”. I know the hackers think they are on some moral high ground with this but I don’t really think leaking peoples personal information and sexual fantasies to the world is in any way moral.

        Plus, I think there is a possibility that a small percentage of the people on there actually do have their spouses consent. Some people have open relationships. And they will be exposed when they’ve done nothing wrong. Except possibly use their work email address. LOL

        1. Bekx*

          I agree, I have a HUGE problem with Doxxing. Even when it’s used for “good” things like exposing cheaters, racists, etc…I just don’t think we should be comfortable with it, or praise it at all.

          My friend in high school was the victim of doxxing when we were in school. She posted something stupid online, it got attention…and people found out her real name and our school. They called the police and the school and she was horribly embarrassed. She was 14 and just trying to be cool. While nothing ultimately happened, and it was before facebook/social media was a big thing…I could see it going very differently and that scares me.

          1. LBK*

            Getting someone’s full name and their school isn’t really “doxxing” though – that’s usually publicly available via social media (although depending how long ago this was, you might be right that it wasn’t as easy to obtain as it would be now). Doxxing is getting really personal info like financials, SSN, address and family addresses and other personal/private documents.

            1. LQ*

              No, doxxing would include information not put out there. So like I use a fake, anon name, if you dug up my real name and address that would be doxxing.

              If I was putting my full name and address here then releasing it wouldn’t be. But since I don’t, doing so would absolutely be doxxing.

              1. LBK*

                If you make posts on social media that include your town (often auto-tagged), pictures of you and even just your first name, I don’t think it’s really doxxing to look you up on Facebook and pull the public info off your profile. That would mean looking someone up in the phone book based on knowing their name would be a form of doxxing.

                1. LQ*

                  Yeah. But if I’m making a post here where all you know is LQ then releasing that would be. It’s basically finding more than the person wanted to release/make public on their own. Often through nefarious means. If I’m posting with my full name on Facebook and you say Full Name said on Facebook that A Thing Happened. Then whatever. But if I’m posting here and you spend hours digging and find out Full Name then go post Full Name said on AAM that A Thing Happened. That would be. It’s making more public than the person wants.

                  If I find out who LBK is and scream it to the Gawker empire even if all I tell them is your full name that’s definitely a doxx. I’d say doing something like using this data dump to out someone would be. Especially if you dug through the AM data and went oh look LBK! It must be the same one as AAM – here’s their profile and credit card info.

                2. Ad Astra*

                  I can see the distinction, but it’s pretty uncool to research and share someone’s identity in an effort to make them look bad, even if that doesn’t count as doxxing. Especially if that someone is 14.

                3. TootsNYC*

                  actually, I do think that’s doxxing. It’s about the invasion of your real world with animosity from the online world.

              2. LBK*

                (And I do understand that true doxxing does still happen like it did in this case, but I often hear “doxxing” thrown around for some of the social media firings that have happened and it just doesn’t seem like it applies since these were people that publicly put info that made it easy to identify them alongside their racist/sexist/etc opinions.)

            2. The IT Manager*

              So what is “doxxing”?

              Is it revealing John Doe is actually Jon Hebert who live in Ville and works at the Ville Electric Company?

              My question is why is Jon Herbert finding it necessary to hide his identity on social media? But I am no longer cool. I was shocked that facebook expected people to use their real names (and I used a kind of fake one when I started) because that didn’t used to be done, but I have grown used to it.

              1. Bekx*

                I think LQ explained it well. I go by Bekx because I don’t want to post my real name — just as you don’t post your real name and you go by The IT Manager. If I were to go through all your posts here and magically figure out who you were, and where you worked, that would be doxxing.

              2. Lucina*

                I think that’s because it’s very easy to make a small mistake in the privacy settings and sometimes you don’t want to be found. I ended up setting up a FB account to keep in touch with some work friends that left, but I use an alias. I do my best to avoid posting things with my real name, and I don’t use Linkedin b/c of the identity issue. I have a very unusual name (commmon first name but max 20 people have the same family name) and it is enough to identify me. I don’t want this. I’m probably a little paranoid, but social media, and generally the web2.0 user generated content – like this comment – make me feel more exposed than I like.

                1. Zillah*

                  Ditto. I also broke up with a guy almost ten years ago who tended to fixate on previous girlfriends, including googling them for years after the fact – he definitely kept bothering me via email/phone and following my posts on a forum long after we broke up. I’d rather not make it super easy for him, particularly when it comes to my personal life.

              3. Shannon*

                When people know your real name, where you live and work, you have to be on your best behavior at all times. It’s like having your conservative grandmother with a heart problem follow you all the time.

                I don’t want the fact that I laughed at a dirty joke, have questionable hobbies (and by questionable hobbies, I mean the fact that I used to play role playing games online. That legitimately used to be considered satanic where I lived until *very* recently) or like a certain politician to be used against me. I want to be in control of my personal information, including what I reveal to whom and when.

            3. Bekx*

              This was before Facebook. They had to do digging to find her. Basically it involved googling her username, reading her posts to find out what part of the country she was in, connecting the dots that her username was a nickname for her last name (Think Sherly instead of Sherlock). Finding her myspace because of this last name and location and then finding her real age, her address, her parents names, the high school we went to and her siblings name.

              That is 100% doxxing.

        2. LQ*

          If the hackers really wanted to make a big deal of this why wouldn’t they have lead with the ceos data, source data, aggregate data. That they lead with the personal data makes me go…eh, you want to make a splash, you don’t really care that these people are being scammed.

          As I’m reading all of it I also think about the Planned Parenthood hack that initially happened right after the AM one. If that data is leaked it could be devastating to people which is horrible.

          And so many of the commenters on posts seem to think this is a get what you deserve, but there was no verification, you could have signed someone else up to get them a whole bunch of AM spam, because I’m sure a site like AM/Avid spams to all end.

          1. Ashley Madison*

            My husband has a very uncommon first name, but his email only uses his first letter and last name which is common and people sign up for stuff all the time. It’s shocking how many people don’t seem to know their own email addresses. I could totally see this happening with AM too.

            1. Elysian*

              I have a whole folder full of things people have improperly signed me up for because they don’t know their own email address – Verizon bill, tracker-related listservs, boudoir photos, real estate agent, Ancestory dot com…. when its important stuff (like the photos, omg I didn’t need those!!!) I usually respond and say “Hey you should really be more careful about stuff like this…” but it probably happens to me with mundane stuff about twice a week.

              1. Ashley Madison*

                He has sent people responses when it has been a personal email. There was one woman who kept emailing him plans for a family reunion who was trying to make plans with him to be picked up at the airport (in another state than we live in and it was no one he knew). And he kept writing her back to say she had the wrong person but she never responded to him but kept emailing updates. I have no idea if she was ever picked up from the airport.

                The most aggravating thing is that his last name is French and the majority he gets are in French, which he actually can’t read. He also get’s a lot of kids signing up for video game sites (or I suppose they could be adults). Once he got a egift card and he had to reply to the person who sent it to let them know they sent it to the wrong person. They were so impressed with his honesty they told him to keep it!

                The other day someone bought and expensive software program and used his email address so he got the direct download for it instead of the other person. He’s sent the company a note on the online help forms to notify them, but hasn’t heard back.

                1. Adonday Veeah*

                  I am on the email list of an organization of “football” referees somewhere in England. For years, I have been receiving notices of their monthly meetings, the menu of snacks being served (what the heck is a butty?) and enticements to participate in the raffle. I tried multiple times telling them I’m a middle-aged woman in America who doesn’t belong on the list, but they rudely insisted it was important info and I MUST receive the emails. It’s been YEARS and I still get these. I actually look forward to them when “football” season starts up every year.

                2. Cath in Canada*

                  Butty = sandwich :)

                  I get emails from some Christian daycare in Ontario. I don’t have kids, don’t live in Ontario, and am not a Christian, but informing them of these facts just seems to increase the flow of emails.

                3. silence covered the sky*

                  I’ve had a small amount of success coping with similar emails by emailing back to everyone on the To: and Cc: lines with a request to please remove my email address – and also I embed a suitably disturbing Google DeepDream image in the email text.

              2. Kat*

                There is a girl with my name that set her google recovery email to mine. I keep getting notices “my” email is used to log into device-name. I swear she’s a drug dealer because it’s a new phone almost every week.
                I finally emailed her and told her. Did she change it? Nooo. I’ve thought about using password recovery to log in and lock her out, but that would be mean.

                2. Elysian*

                  Mean, but just.

                  I logged into the Ancestry dot com person’s account and changed all her relatives names into a sentence about how she had the wrong email address. It’s only fair.

                3. blackcat*

                  I did that with someone who WOULD NOT change their dating website email address to be correct, despite multiple pleadings from me (they even told me that I should hand over my FirstnameLastname @ g mail address because they wanted it more). I locked them out. It solved the problem. I was okay being mean.

                  I have a super common name and got gmail a very, very long time ago. So I get misdirected email all of the time. I set up certain filters (LastnameFirstname @gmail ‘s elderly mom could not figure it out, so that filter has been in place for TEN YEARS.) and I have a canned response set up so I just click 1 button. About 50% of people apologize, about 45% never respond, and the other 5% are nasty. I’m okay locking the nasty people out of online accounts, in part because the other 95% of misdirected email folks are fine.

                  All of that said, I wouldn’t be surprised of there was an Ashley Maddison account tied to my email address–again, it’s a super common name, and like many internet services, they do not verify email addresses. Oh how I wish verification were standard….

                4. Elysian*

                  I agree – why isn’t email verification standard if you require an email address!!? It is just common sense.

                5. Zillah*

                  Yeah, if you don’t require email verification, you should just allow people to put in usernames without emails.

                6. Ops Analyst*

                  I’m confused. How do you notify people who are using your email address as their own? How do you have their real email? I get it with the recovery email, but otherwise I can’t recall a time where an email sent to me from something I’ve signed up for contains another of my email addresses. Or are you actually picking up the phone and calling them when all their contact info is included?

                7. blackcat*

                  I’ve encountered a couple of sites that allow people to set up two email addresses. I go in, and if I see another one, or something like a Skype or AIM name, use that to contact them.

                  For other services, like skype, I send them a skype message. Everyone (4 people) on skype has been apologetic about mis-typing emails, though.

                  I only do this if I’m getting lots of notifications and/or private messages from companies that I also use (so I don’t want to set up a black hole filter). I do have such filters for a lot of stuff, too.

              3. Small Creatures Such As We*

                I can’t respond directly to the Gmail filter/canned-response email below, but +1 on that. I have a super UNCOMMON last name, and this still happens to me.

                I have a filter that auto-responds with a canned response, letting them know that they’ve emailed the wrong person, asking them to update their contact information for the intended recipient, and informing them that they will continue to receive this canned response every time they email me. Every time I get a mis-directed email from a different email address, I add it to the filter, and it will send the canned response only to the address that was just added to the filter.

                I’ve had a couple of particularly bad re-offenders that prompted this:
                I actually set up the canned response because of a real-estate agent who I’d emailed directly telling her that that she had the wrong person. Then she sent secure documents to my email address (!!!), intended for someone else, for “me” to sign.
                The nastiest was some professional-group reply-all that refused to remove me from their reply-all OR STOP PROVIDING MY EMAIL ADDRESS AS THE “NEW” ADDRESS FOR SOMEONE — until they included me in some kind of rather confidential/internal-strategy-discussion of competitors that they would definitely not want leaked to the public. After encounters like this, I don’t feel bad about having a direct canned response.

            2. Honeybee*

              I have a very common first and last name, and I signed up for Gmail when it first debuted (back when you still needed an invitation) so I managed to get my firstname.lastname without any numbers or underscores or anything. I get misdirected mail ALL the time, either because people don’t know their own address or because the people responding left out a crucial letter or number. One time I had a posse of people RSVP to my address for a bridal brunch!

              I usually send them responses suggesting that they may have left out a letter or number.

          2. zora*

            “you could have signed someone else up to get them a whole bunch of AM spam, because I’m sure a site like AM/Avid spams to all end.”

            Two of my friends actually had a prank war going for a while where they were signing each other up for things they hated. It was childish, and both of them probably wouldn’t be adversely affected if their info was in the AM data, bc they have partners that would trust them that it was a joke, but it just made me think that is actually a very real possibility: that someone was signed up by someone else for AM, whether as a joke, or maliciously, or who knows why?

            1. zora*

              (although, actually, it was kind of funny as a prank war. To sign up an active party Democrat for Anne Coulter’s email list, etc. They would both get super exasperated, and I just got to laugh at both of them.)

              1. Shannon*

                My Republican husband is convinced that his Democrat friend signed him up for the White House’s mailing list.

          3. Krystal*

            My name is very uncommon … but there is apparently someone whose first name is Krystyl (and I thought MY name was stupid) and has my fairly uncommon last name. I’ve received emails from her mother, the social worker handling her foster care situation, and her BANK. Get your shit together, Krystyl.

        3. MegEB*

          Ashley Madison specifically caters to people look to have an affair behind their spouse’s back, though. I’ve had open relationships in the past and I know quite a few couples who are in open or poly relationships, and I don’t know anyone who uses Ashley Madison (or any of the related sites, such as EstablishedMen) to find new partners. Nonmonogamous couples are not the demographic Ashley Madison is targeting.

          I’m really torn on this too. On one hand, I generally feel like cheaters deserve what they get, and I certainly don’t feel sorry for them. But I also can’t support the idea of hackers illegally obtaining data to essentially push a moral agenda. It’s one thing to attack cheating partners (I don’t think you’re going to find too many people outraged about that), but what if it was a more controversial issue? For example, what if the hackers wanted to push a pro-life agenda and hacked into medical records to see who’s had an abortion? I just don’t support vigilante justice, even for something as reprehensible as cheating on your spouse.

          1. LQ*

            The Planned Parenthood hack that happened immediately after the AM one is exactly this. Though they werent’ able to get nearly as much information and haven’t done the big public splash that the AM hackers did.

            1. Steve G*

              Mmmmm…..that is not a very good comparison. PP is funded in part by $500M in taxpayer funding, so we have a right to know what they are using it for, regardless of anyone’s stance on the issue.

              Taxpayers have no vested interest in whether a couple cheats or not.

              1. Natalie*

                Huh? Hacking into someone’s secure database and stealing personal information on their employees is not okay because their organization receives some taxpayer funding. Good lord.

                3. Natalie*

                  @ Steve G, again, huh? Every news article I’ve seen says they gained access to PP databases.

              2. MegEB*

                Uh, no. No one has the right to know another person’s medical records unless consent is explicitly given. We’re talking medical records, not financial documents.

              3. AMT*

                You may have a right to know what Planned Parenthood spends taxpayer money on (hint: its not abortions), but you don’t have a right to know what I personally went to PP for.

              4. Elysian*

                By that logic it would be “ok” to hack into the bank account of every individual with student loans on Income Based Repayment just because we as taxpayers subsidizing their loan and have a “vested interest” or some kind of “right” to know what they’re using their money for. We don’t — taxpayer money or not, its still a huge violation of privacy. If anyone has an actual right, they’ll have to set up transparent reporting guidelines, not hack in.

                1. Natalie*

                  And every government employee, every business that has ever received a government contract or jobzone-type grant, everyone who gets the EITC (it’s extra money, not just a refund), and on and on.

                2. Steve G*

                  That does NOT follow from my logic. PP was about the general actions of an organization, not individual patient cases. And why are you mentioning hacking in comparison to PP? It wasn’t a hacking case. My comment above was that there is no comparison to Ashley Madison and PP, nothing more.

                3. LBK*

                  I can’t find anything too specific about the details of the hack but I did see some news reports that PP’s databases were accessed, which I assume would include patient records. I don’t see how that’s any different.

                1. Steve G*

                  Yes, and I don’t expect people to skew my comments though. Someone made a comparison between divulging a bunch of A.M. information to doing undercover videos at PP. I commented it is apples and oranges. Other commenters somehow took the leap into “so you are for divulging medical records of PP patients?” What? Where does that come from. Not me. Someone even went so far as to say “every story about PP mentioned hacking.” Absolutely false. PP was not a hacking story. It was an undercover camera story.

                  This is reminding me about what Joey wrote about last week. Commenters are adding things (that PP was a hacking personal data story) to what I wrote then attacking it.

                3. Steve G*

                  @AAM. Thank you. I already feel like I watch too much news and I didn’t see this or the story on the 6th PP video until just now. Too much going on in the world now to follow

              7. Observer*

                Are you seriously arguing that taxpayers are entitled to know all of the personal information about every person who works for every government agency, or for any organization that gets any government money? Including sensitive personal stuff (eg medical conditions etc. ) and the kind of personal information that can be used to commit fraud (eg bank account information and SS#)?

                1. I'm a Little Teapot*

                  Thanks for putting it better than I did, Observer. As someone who has worked both in government and in healthcare, I find this sort of viewpoint terrifying. There are a lot of people out there who consider all government workers to be Pure Evil simply by virtue of working for the gubmint, and and a fair number of those people are armed and inclined toward violence. There have also been numerous cases of shootings and bombings directed at abortion clinics, at people who work at them, or at places/people with some connection to abortion. Releasing the private information and whereabouts of clinic workers (or even people who work for an organization that performs abortions or advocates legal abortion access, whatever their actual roles), in the hopes that people will harass, attack, or kill them, is a classic tactic of extremist anti-abortion groups.

                  Certain extreme libertarians advocate even scarier tactics to get rid of government by getting rid of anyone who works for a government. That’s part of why Bitcoin exists. There was an influential essay posted online about twenty years ago proposing an “assassination market” enabled by untraceable electronic currency and encrypted networks where anyone could pay for the murder of anyone they didn’t like, and the essay suggested using it to eliminate the state by setting up rewards for killing every single person who works for a government entity until all the surviving government workers quit. Seriously. Google Charles Stross’s “Why Bitcoin needs to die in a fire.”

                  In short, this shit gets people killed. Which is precisely the intention of a fair number of the people who do it.

                2. Steve G*

                  It looks like we were talking about two different things. I thought we were just talking about the PP videos, I didn’t know there was also a hacking case! There is too much freaking news going on, I am behind even though I read a lot! I didn’t see this, I probably stopped opening PP articles at some points because they were becoming redundant……

                  No I don’t think lists of abortion patients should be shared. Aggregate stats only, but not via a hack!

              8. Honeybee*

                Taxpayers may have a vested interest in how a company in aggregate spends their money. That doesn’t mean that you need to know the individual records of the people who use PP’s services.

          2. Ashley Madison*

            Yup. I agree they are not targeting non-monogamous couples, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a small percentage of them on there. I think there are people who are non-monogamous who aren’t necessarily mingling along the poly world or are “out” about that choice. People can be pretty critical of it. I’m sure there are couples that could be using sites like this discretely and don’t know anyone else in their immediate circle who are in an open relationship that is out in the open.

          3. Ad Astra*

            I just don’t support vigilante justice, even for something as reprehensible as cheating on your spouse.

            Exactly. I can’t get behind the idea of exposing and shaming people for doing something you don’t approve of. Lots of people don’t approve of abortion, plastic surgery, sexting, homosexuality, any number of things… but that doesn’t mean it’s the world’s right to know which legal activities these private citizens are up to.

              1. Chriama*

                No-one ‘exposed’ that employee, though. Posting something on twitter is like shouting it from the rooftops. I think that’s the difference between having a discreet affair in a hotel across town and participating in the workplace duck club.

                1. Creag an Tuire*

                  I am curious, though, whether anybody’s opinion would be different if the website in question were, say, StormFront instead of Ashley Madison. (Just to spare anybody a potentially NSFW Google, StormFront is Nazis.)

                2. LBK*

                  I actually don’t know that the reactions would be *totally* different – AM is certainly a site that a lot of people consider morally dubious and there are still plenty of defenders saying the hack wasn’t justified. SF is on a whole other level of immoral, so I think it would be harder (at least for me) to continue to push the right to privacy line, but I think there’d still be people who’d say that no one deserves to have their private data released, end of sentence.

                3. Shannon*

                  You know, on The Sims 3, you could use a video camera to record two other sims having an affair and show it to the sim who had been cheated on. The relationship took the same penalty every time the sim who had been cheated on saw the video, regardless of how many times they had seen it, how long ago it was or if the relationship had been previously repaired.

                  I think in a lot of ways, the internet is turning into that video camera. That off color joke you made as a stupid teenager in 1995 is just as fresh as saying it yesterday to your insulted friend, despite the fact that it was 20 years ago and you have substantially changed since then.

                  It’s not right or fair, but, I really think the internet means the end of second chances.

              2. Steve G*

                I know…I saw that as a contradiction but didn’t want to stir the pot on that one. Especially because she said “if you don’t like it here go back to where you’re from” and it didn’t apply to any specific race. People for whatever reason assumed it was anti-black, but it clearly is referring to illegal immigrants newly arrived but already complaining about the way America is.

                You can disagree with my interpretation of what she said, but if we have to interpret what someone means, if it isn’t even clear cut, then maybe the person needs to be cut a little slack or given a chance to explain what they meant.

                1. LBK*

                  I don’t see how that interpretation of the statement is really any better, plus given the time when it was posted and context it seems pretty clear that’s not what she was saying.

                2. Zillah*

                  … Except that when you target a characteristic that is disproportionately true for one group of people, plausible deniability doesn’t really work.

                  I’m also confused about why you’re so outraged that she wasn’t able to defend herself when she was insulting and stereotyping a huge swath of people who weren’t given the opportunity to defend themselves:

                3. Honeybee*

                  What other explanation is there for “if you are a minority and don’t like it, go back thats [sic] what freedom is”? It doesn’t have to target a specific racial group to be racist and offensive. People assumed it was anti-black because it happened in the wake of an anti-black shooting. There’s nothing in the tweets indicating that she’s speaking about illegal immigrants newly arrived; in fact, one of her tweets (“Don’t complain about being a minority and say whites are a problem when your ancestors chose to come here knowing they would be a minority”, emphasis mine) directly contradicts that interpretation. (It would, however, seem to indicate an astonishing lack of knowledge of American history and how most African-descended people ended up here.)

                  …and even if it was directed at illegal immigrants and just showed poor timing…they’re still racist and offensive!

              3. MegEB*

                Well, first of all, making statements on Twitter is not the same as discreetly signing up for an AM account. One is shouting your opinion from the rooftops (to use Chrianna’s excellent analogy), the other is, well, not. I think it’s also important to note that hacking into someone’s account and posting personal data is very much illegal, while emailing your CEO to inform them of an employee making racist statements is not. It’s a significant difference.

              4. Ad Astra*

                It’s a little different because the movie theater employee was posting on an unlocked Twitter account, and these people were using what was supposed to be a discreet, private dating website. But I happen to disagree with the vigilante justice in both cases, because I think it’s wrong to try to get someone fired for doing or saying something you disagree with.

                The racist employee is a particularly unsympathetic “victim” (if we can call her that), but what if I said “Abortion should be safe and legal, and these restrictive laws are bullshit” and a bunch of people publicly demanded to know whether my company agrees with the statement? I can’t be sure my company would have my back.

                Alison and other commenters believe most employers would make a distinction between hate speech and social/political discourse, but I don’t.

              5. Cordelia Naismith*

                It’s not “vigilante justice” to hold people accountable for the things they say in public. Twitter is public. That’s not the same as hacking into a website and stealing subscriber data.

        4. Ad Astra*

          FWIW, a large number of people on Ashley Madison are single men (because single men are everywhere on the internet) and people whose spouses are already aware of the situation. I don’t see any productive purpose for exposing people who are on the website, even if they are cheating on their spouses. That information is only relevant to the spouse, and I can’t imagine this is how you’d like to find out your husband or wife is having an affair.

          But using your work email to sign up is pretty bad judgment.

          1. Lionness*

            “FWIW, a large number of people on Ashley Madison are single men (because single men are everywhere on the internet) and people whose spouses are already aware of the situation.”

            I don’t know how we could know that this is true

            1. JMegan*

              But it’s a number greater than zero, in any case. Not to mention non-monogamous people, and other people who signed up with their spouses’ full knowledge and consent.

              Of course we have no idea if X is more like 2% or more like 20%, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that every person on there was actively cheating on their spouse when they signed up.

              1. Lionness*

                I don’t think anyone is assuming everyone was actively cheating. But I think it is reasonable to state that AM did not market towards consenting, non-monogamous couples, nor single people. They marketed towards married people seeking to cheat.

          2. MegEB*

            I don’t know how one can back up that statistic, especially considering that AM’s entire layout, including their slogan, is designed to appeal to people looking for the secrecy of an affair. I’m sure there are people using Ashley Madison who have their spouse’s consent, but I suspect that number is not statistically significant. Most of the people I know who have non-monogamous relationships have zero interest in using Ashley Madison, because they’re not looking to keep anything a secret.

            1. Ad Astra*

              I don’t have any idea what the statistic would be, I just know that one of my female friends had an account and said she got tons of messages from single guys, just like if she were on OK Cupid or something. I guess they thought going on an affair site would help their chances of hooking up, and it would be easier to find someone who wasn’t looking for a real relationship? It was definitely a surprisingly high number of single guys. She showed me her phone and it was just guy after guy after guy. But there’s no denying that Ashley Madison is explicitly marketed toward people looking for illicit affairs. And I guess you could argue that single guys trying to hook up with married women aren’t much better than cheaters themselves.

              (My friend swears she never met anyone from Ashley Madison and eventually got off the site and into marriage counseling. To be honest, I think she just didn’t find anyone to her liking.)

              1. Panda Bandit*

                But were those guys actually single or were they pretending to be single? People know cheating is wrong but not everyone wants to admit they’re doing bad things or that they’re a bad person.

          3. Observer*

            Using a work email is monumentally bad judgment. Using any real email is pretty stupid, especially on a site that doesn’t do any verification.

          4. Kas*

            I saw an article which asserted that gay people living in countries where homosexuality is outlawed were also using AM to arrange sexual encounters. In some countries, being outed for that could ruin (or end) your life. They weren’t cheating on anyone, just trying to find happiness in as safe a way as possible.

            I have no idea if people were actually using the site in this way, and, if so, what proportion of site users fit into this category, but even if it were just one person that would be harmed by a leak of this nature, that’s one person too many.

            1. Jen RO*

              There was an AMA on Reddit by a guy in Saudi Arabia claiming that he was in exactly this situation (used AM for gay encounters in the US, now back in SA and in danger if anyone identified him).

        5. Allison*

          I agree that leaking those details about a person’s life to the internet isn’t okay, as it can open people up to things like credit card fraud, stalking, or worse, and that’s not necessarily deserved. That said, I do think cheating on your spouse is morally reprehensible – not because you’re having sex outside of the confines of a socially approved relationship and thus breaking society’s arbitrary rules about when you can and can’t have sex, but because of the impact it has on the person you’re cheating on – and I have no problem with cheaters being outed to their spouses.

        6. Lionness*

          For your everyday private person, I do not think it is right that their private data was released (although…I am a little too gleeful that they’ve been exposed as cheating cheaters who at least tried to cheat). But for elected officials, people who screamed family values *cough*DUGGAR*cough*, etc? Meh. You don’t get privacy.

    3. SandrineSmiles (France)*

      The only part I read about it was with Dan Savage. He basically argued that there are people (like some Duggar person) that could seem like legitimate targets for information reveal, but most others ? Bah, who cares, really.

      1. Violetta*

        Yeah, I’m having trouble reconciling my feelings on that part of it. On the one hand I think it’s wrong to leak personal information of all these people and whoever did it should be prosecuted for it. On the other hand I’m not gonna pretend I didn’t read that Josh Duggar article with malicious glee.

        1. Lionness*

          Yea. The only person I feel bad for in *that* situations is his wife. Let’s not pretend she has a choice about staying with him.

        2. The Strand*

          Hate to agree that I felt similarly about Duggar. I feel bad for his wife, though, who I am sure is blaming herself and feels personally, deeply, humiliated. I hope she finds a good divorce lawyer and leaves the Christian patriarchy environment.

          1. Blurgle*

            The entire basis of their religion is that when men do something bad, it’s always the fault of some woman. Always. Even now, Josh’s wife is taking all the blame for his actions.

      2. Steve G*

        Do we have to bring Dan Savage into this? I am gay and I HATE his constant “playing the gay card” to push his warped extreme view of the world. For example, he has a clear anti-Christian bias. He is not a source of information unless you want someone to criticize traditional facets of American life.

        1. MegEB*

          I’m curious what you mean by warped. I actually really enjoy Dan Savage and would love to hear his take on this, but now I’d also like to know why you dislike him so much. Is it mostly because of his atheist tendencies, or are there other reasons?

          1. Steve G*

            Not a religious issues I just don’t like a lot of what he says. I don’t want to open a whole political debate here because I could easily write something to spark a 1000 comment thread. But one example is calling people against Obamacare scumbags. As if there is something morally wrong with not being for socialized medicine. And he put the word “socialized” in quotation marks as if that isn’t what it actually is. Personally, I am very against the government being involved in anything having to do with my healthcare. But he apparently doesn’t want to hear why that would be because he is going to roll his eyes at you.

            1. Nashira*

              He might also have already considered positions like yours and dismissed them as being completely counter to his values and sincere beliefs. I mean, that’s a thing that happens, man.

              1. Steve G*

                I know but I don’t name call when someone doesn’t agree with me. I don’t consider people who name call because people don’t agree with them to be good sources of information in the future, because people who resort to name calling also tend to be people who get frustrated when things don’t fit into their agenda

            2. Huh?*

              Um, I should resist this because I don’t want to derail either…but Obamacare isn’t socialized medicine, like, at all.

              2. Steve G*

                The idea of pooling taxpayer money for a program that benefits a minority and then having the program run by the government is socialist in itself. It doesn’t need to be an exact model of the USSR’s medical system to call it “socialist.”

                1. Nashira*

                  I mean this sincerely: so how is using socialist as an insult not an ad hominem?

                  Plus, I have never understood why socialism in governance is some big bugbear. Plenty of countries have socialized elements, especially healthcare, and do just as good (if not better) than the US does on the relevant metrics. Then again, I’m unashamedly socialist when it comes to feeding, housing, and caring for people in need.

                2. Creag an Tuire*

                  So, unless you’re just talking about the Medicaid expansion (in some states), Obamacare -still- isn’t socialist. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of legitimate points of complaint against a system requiring you to purchase a product from a private for-profit third party which is managed by said, but “socialism” isn’t one of them.

                3. Steve G*

                  @ Nashira – to answer the first question, because describing something as socialistic because it has a redistribution-of-wealth aspect is different than insulting a person with curse words as DS has done because you don’t agree with them.

                  Also, in the US media, “socialist” is used all of the time to describe welfare type programs or redistribution of wealth type programs. It doesn’t = same as USSR.

                  For the record, I am very gun-ho about reining in the programs you mentioned. I know someone who is here illegally and gets all sorts of welfare + food stamps for her kids even though she could easily go back to Poland. My 1/2 brother’s mom has been collecting food stamps + welfare for her kids and is always out partying + going on vacations…and then she “took custody” of one of her grandkids (even though the dad lives in the same house sometimes!) to collect social security until the kid turns 18. And where I used to live in Brooklyn for 5 years, about 1/3 the people in the local deli and grocery store used WIC cards (food stamps) even though they had iphones, nice clothes, a couple of kids even though they are only early 20s…these programs are out of control and not helping the people they were intended for.

                  Look at stories of NYC public housing if you want an example of how “socialist” housing turns out. Huge backlogs of repairs, walls being put over leaking pipes, mold issues, rodent issues, elevator issues. They had to clean house at the top in 2013 because the execs were overpaid and abusing private cars while a record # of repair requests sat.

                4. Panda Bandit*

                  Oh no, millions of people can get somewhat affordable health care now. It’s such a tragedy how you can’t individually choose who gets to benefit.

                5. Lore*

                  I’m still confused. The tax credits are run by the government. Some of the enrollment websites are run by the government. None of the health insurance, or the actual healthcare, is run by the government. All of the money spent on health insurance is going to private corporations.

                  If taxpayer money is being redistributed, it’s primarily being redistributed to Aetna and Cigna. You can call that many things, and I am by no means a partisan of the program in its actual current form, but socialist seems at best a serious stretch.

                  By your logic, wouldn’t most tax credits be socialist?

                6. Steve G*

                  @ Lore. I was referring to the $900bn – $1 trillion Obama said the cost of Obamacare would be over the next decade. Other estimates put it over $2 trillion over the 2014-2024 period.

            3. Lionness*

              It….isn’t…what it actually is, though. Socialized medicine would be medicaid and medicare or any other single payer system. This is subsidized medicine (just like we have subsidized corn and subsidized roads and subsidized firefighters – the federal government pays part and we pay part either via local taxes or one time fees).

        2. LBK*

          I don’t really understand why his biases matter…he’s a columnist, not a reporter. Basically his whole job is giving his opinion.

          1. Steve G*

            Because it also impacts what sort of stories you even cover. It’s not only about your take on a particular issue, it’s about whether you are even going to cover something or not because it might conflict with your ideas.

            Even the very opinionated Bill Maher, for example, sometimes discusses topics that don’t fit in with his ideas, and then you have to remove some of his biases to get to the information, but at least he covers the story. DS would just not report a story. Hard to quantify, but then again, it’s not like he has stories out on extreme range of topics.

        3. Meg*

          Have you read any of his books? He talks a fair bit about religion in American Savage – about his upbringing as the son of a Catholic preacher and how he kind of drifted back to religion after the death of his mother. I always appreciate his nuanced view.

        4. Anonymous Educator*

          I’m a Christian, and I don’t find him displaying any anti-Christian bias. In fact, he regularly has Christians on his show… just not right-wing anti-gay Christians.

        5. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

          Dan Savage gives advice my old school Catholic aunt would agree with.

    4. Jerzy*

      Work email addresses, as far as I’m concerned, shouldn’t be used for anything that’s not work-related. That’s not to say you can’t occasionally send a personal email from your work email address, but signing up for a site (any site) that’s not related to your job can leave your work email account more susceptible to dangerous spam and viruses. THAT’s the real issue with people using their work emails in this way. And for Government workers, it’s worse, because they are using a public resource for personal reasons.

      The fact that the whole thing is just icky should be left out of the broader picture of employees using work resources for strictly personal reasons. Leave the judgement of their nasty behavior between them and their spouses.

      1. Jane*

        I was just going to say this exact same thing. Don’t bosses have access to employees’ emails? Mine does. I’d never use it for anything even slightly non work-related.

        1. Ad Astra*

          My boss doesn’t have access to my email, but I’m sure IT would give him access if he presented a good reason for it. A lot of our admins and project managers have access to their boss’s emails to send stuff out on their behalf. It would be weird to me if my boss wanted access to my email, but I would never assume my work email is private.

          1. Jane*

            Hmm, I guess my situation is a little unique. My address is the email that a lot of general questions get sent to. So when I’m out of the office, it still has to be checked frequently. But I always figured managers and supervisors would want access to certain messages, through IT or otherwise, like you said. If you screwed up a client relationship, they’d probably want to pry and figure out why. I guess that’s not the case everywhere though.

      2. Ashley Madison*

        Yeah. I had to sign an agreement not to use my work email for anything other than work and it expressly forbid signing up for anything non work related with it and even discouraged emailing family/friends with it. But my company is very security driven as it’s part of what their business is about. If there was a breach, it. would. not. be. good.

        I agree that the behavior should be irrelevant but then I started thinking about companies with morality clauses and the appearance of having many employees using their work email to participate in extramarital affairs.

      3. Artemesia*

        I worked for a place that a perk of retirement is you can continue to use your email from the organization. so I have always mixed work and personal emails. BUT I would never put anything in an email on that account that would be humiliating to be disclosed. So yeah my new dishwasher receipt just arrived on this email but should I ever be ordering fancy dildos or criticizing the organization or making political diatribes — that goes to Gmail.

      4. Emmie*

        The Wash. Post or NYT said that Ashley Madison never verified the users email addresses. Theoretically individuals could have signed up with a fake work or gov email address.
        Yet, the data also included credit card info with addresses. Unless subscribers used a pre paid credit card, this info seems more reliable

          2. I'm a Little Teapot*

            So….a third party could sign someone up for an account without that person’s permission, then use it for impersonation or blackmail? Or AM could even sign someone up for an account and not take it down unless that person pays a fee to get rid of it? (I’m not saying they do, but they could.)

            Scary. Also, this means we can’t assume any of these accounts were actually created by the people they supposedly belong to.

      5. Lucky*

        Plus, if your company ends up in litigation (or, if you work for a government office that is subject to FOIA requests) lawyers are going to see your personal emails and we may have to provide those emails to third parties and they may ask you about your personal emails during your desposition.

    5. Kyrielle*

      I think using your work email for any kind of dating site – whether it purports to be aboveboard or for affairs – is incredibly tacky, and if a company took action on it, I wouldn’t blame them. (It’s also stupid, because IT at the companies / military could have spotted the emails being sent…unless there are never emails, in which case validating the addresses is really questionable.)

      The military members (especially those who are actually married) have the worst exposure, though – because adultery can be a criminal offense under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Using your email for it apparently also is. If it can be confirmed they used their emails (vs someone else using their emails), and if they prosecute (which I’m not sure they will – just that they could), they could face dishonorable discharge and other penalties.

      I’m with “incredible lack of judgement” re the work emails, and doubly so for the military members, knowing it was prohibited conduct. If their employers want to react to that, I think it’s very much within their rights – though I’d hope employers without any code of conduct (or code of justice as the military) regarding the issue would ignore the adultery aspect and focus on the ‘misuse of work email’ aspect.

      1. Ashley Madison*

        I’m with “incredible lack of judgement” re the work emails, and doubly so for the military members, knowing it was prohibited conduct.

        This is the part that left me truly shaking my head.

        1. Chris*

          You’ve never been in the military, have you? Pretty much every day I was there I was shaking my head at something. The idea of a “professional” military isn’t embraced at the lower enlisted levels. The amount of prohibited things that happen are too varied to list. When you live at your job for over six months at a time, throw in extreme amounts of stress, and top it off with young people + fairly well-paying jobs, the line between personal and professional tends to blur rapidly.

          1. Chris*

            To be fair, my experience may have been colored, as my ship was known to be the worst ship on the West Coast.

          2. Ashley Madison*

            Nope. I’ve never been in the military. Not much experience with it at all, though my husband’s father was military. I can see your point for sure.

            I was however not really thinking about that in the context of them being military but more just the basics of a person knowing something could get them in a lot of trouble and choosing to do it anyway. When people are informed of what would be considered prohibited conduct at their jobs they usually choose not to do it. Like I’m not allowed to use my email for personal things. I could get in a lot of trouble. So I don’t. Doesn’t matter that I probably wouldn’t be caught.

            It was more a general thought overall than specifically relating to people in the military.

            1. The Strand*

              Oh, one other comment in response to that. As far as people doing something that they “know… could get them in a lot of trouble” — don’t underestimate how some – the type of kids Chris is speaking to – really *don’t* know these middle-class norms about being professional and not doing certain things.

              I have heard stories about kids going into boot or initial training that have never seen a dentist, didn’t know basic geography, had to get help learning how to read, needed help learning to maintain their physical appearance (meaning, use deodorant and take regular baths). This was from two very different services.

              We overestimate the knowledge we expect young people to have about “safe use of technology”.

              1. Chris*

                Confirmed. And I taught those same kids how to safely operate nuclear reactors while at the same time trying to stop them from getting married to someone they met three weeks ago.

                1. Shannon*

                  I lost count of the number of couples I saw who got engaged in less than a month in the military. The only thing I could figure was that they were trying for some form of stability in an otherwise very volatile environment.

              2. Ashley Madison*

                I was basing this on them actually having been informed that it was prohibited, not on people just having known it because they figured it out on their own or through experience.

          3. The Strand*

            Hey, Chris, you took the words right out of my brain when I was reading the original comment.
            Adultery is the one of the least unusual “prohibited” activities you can witness on base or just off it.

            About the only thing I disagree with is regarding the lower enlisted levels not embracing “professionalism”. First, it very much depends on why you went in; if Dad is a master sergeant or chief, or /and Mom was a 2nd class petty officer before she had children, you generally have a different attitude than someone just trying to escape boredom, a dying rural town, or urban blight. And many of those young kids do, over time, grow up in that system and become more professional… I always think of Colin Powell and what he was like prior to service.

            Secondly, since my brother was an officer and very much a “Dudley Do Right”, I had certain assumptions about differences between officers and enlisted people. It was only in dating two enlisted men, one of whom I married, that I realized that some officers were also very immature and unprofessional. Alas, I think the sheer number of people who have been canned from their own ships or command in recent years shows that unprofessionalism isn’t going away.

            1. Chris*

              Very true. (Full disclosure, I was one of those enlisted personnel myself.) Some of the most professional people I served with were enlisted, and some of the worst were officers. The thing that the officers generally had going for them was four years to mellow out at college and get a chance to make mistakes without the UCMJ over them.

              1. jamlady*

                Ugh my husband went to college and then enlisted at an older age and has spent the last 6 years just shaking his head. We’ve seen the worst examples of human behavior from some of these people (and their spouses, like woah). Military culture does very little to promote maturity and it’s very bothersome. Military personnel using their work information for a cheating website is the least shocking thing I’ve heard all year.

      2. Anna*

        Seriously. It would be SO EASY to set up a dummy email account that you only use for that one purpose. People are stupid.

    6. Sunflower*

      First of all, I’m really surprised how many people do not have email accounts outside of their work emails and don’t see anything wrong with that. My boss is one and it blows my mind. Even if you’re signing up for things that are totally legit and PG like Target, you really shouldn’t be using your work email for any personal reasons.

      I think firing someone over this is extreme. I would definitely have a talk with employees about how work emails should and should not be used. It’s probably a good idea at this point for a lot of companies, whether or not their employees were called out during this, to re-issue their use of work email addresses statement.

      1. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

        My dad was one of those people for years (until he retired). He worked for a company that did defense contracting and my emails to him would frequently get blocked because I’d forget to censor myself and use unfortunate slang (“Hi Dad, really bombed my math test today”). He was never reprimanded or told not to use it for personal email though… I’m sure if I had names I could find many people from his former company on Ashley Madison

      2. Natalie*

        Similarly, I have co-workers who’s only phone is their work phone, which I just find really odd. I get that carrying around 2 phones sucks, but why would you want all of your private communication subject to whatever your employers rules about data are?

        1. Ashley Madison*

          I think it depends. When I was an admin for a big corp phones were a perk for a lot of people I supported. I ordered the phones and set up the accounts for people, but once in their possession the only requirement was that it was password protected IF they added the work email account. They didn’t have to add that if they didn’t want to. The phone was theirs and they didn’t have to return it if they left the job (the account would be canceled though). The company had absolutely no access to the information on it at all.

          1. Natalie*

            Fair enough, but with my co-workers that is definitely not the case. The phone does not belong to them and it subject to all the same rules our work laptops are, including being wiped remotely if they were fired.

            1. Dynamic Beige*

              Which is the best reason ever for having a work and personal phone. I get that you may want to use your snazzy iPhone all the time and find Android/BB/Samsung/whatever not as cool or easy to use but dayum… if something happens and they wipe your phone, you are going to lose all your personal information, too. A work phone could be left at work. There’s too much blurring the lines of where the workday begin and ends right now.

              1. Natalie*

                IKR? Plus all your photos and stuff. I don’t think we own the cloud backups of our work phones, either.

                1. Dynamic Beige*

                  Honestly, I was doing a job where they were announcing this new “use your own device!” plan and cheers went up in the room… and all I could think about was how nice it must be for a corporation to not have to pay for phone upgrades and have the ability to wipe their employees’ phones whenever. Nope.

        2. Career Counselorette*

          My dad is like this. I just upgraded my phone, and he made me hold onto my old iPhone 4 with a pink and blue flower case on it so that he’ll be able to have a phone when he retires and no longer has a company one. My dad is 63 years old. My iPhone will probably not even work by the time he’s ready to retire.

        3. Ad Astra*

          When I worked for a newspaper, everyone was issued a smartphone and encouraged to use it as their only phone. At first, my work-issued phone was the only Android phone in a fleet of iPhones, so none of the work-related functions were compatible with our systems; I chose not to use it. After several people quit or were laid off/fired, I noticed what a PITA it was for them to go set up new accounts (especially if they just lost their jobs), so I opted not to use a company iPhone as my only phone once there was one available.

          It caused a lot of friction with my manager, but one of my relatives was already paying for my phone (I know, I know) so it wasn’t costing me anything to keep my number, my device, and my damn privacy. Nobody ever asked to see someone’s private data/photos/whatever on their work phone, but they certainly could have, and that weirds me out.

        4. Shannon*

          My husband’s only phone is his work phone. His personal use of his work phone is so mundane that he doesn’t really care.

      3. Koko*

        Right? Setting aside any potential misuse issues, how would you even stay on top of your work email if all your personal email was coming in there too? I get hundreds of emails to my personal account every day, and that’s just the legitimate email, not all spam that Gmail does a great job of catching. I would be so worried about missing an important work email if all my personal email was diluting the inbox.

    7. MegEB*

      I think employers should absolutely be concerned if their employees are using work emails to sign up for Ashley Madison. The lack of judgement in doing so is … astounding. Whether they should be fired or reprimanded should probably depend on a host of other factors such as their general performance, whether they’ve shown a lack of good judgement in the past, etc, but if I was managing someone who was exposed in this hack, and they used their work email, I would be having a very serious meeting with them at the very least.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I would hope that employers use a big picture focus. If that is the only thing the employee is doing perhaps a stern “talking to” is enough to stop the problem. However, if the employer checks email and sees a bunch of other activities, maybe something more is necessary. I think each employer has to decide each situation. In my mind if the employee has security clearances this makes the situation more serious, because the employee may not recognize the responsibility that comes with the security clearance.

      2. Shannon*

        Yeah. I’d be concerned about the judgement involved in so badly misusing company resources, if not company time.

    8. Katie the Fed*

      It’s actually far worse because IP addresses were also listed. So now they can find government employees who were using this from work. NOT OK.

      I would support disciplinary action against military and government. For military, it’s actionable under UCMJ. For government, it’s a misuse of government resources, especially if you happen to be an in sensitive position. You put yourself in a compromising position. Not ok.

      1. Nerdling*

        I hadn’t heard that the leak included IP addresses. From a government IT perspective, that could be Very Bad.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          The Associated Press is reporting:
          “They encompass more than two dozen agencies, such as the departments of State, Justice, Energy, Treasury and Transportation. Others came from House or Senate computer networks.”

          Heh. It’s about to get real!

          1. Nerdling*

            Oh lawdamercy! I’ll just be over here quietly thanking the heavens I have more sense. And possibly popping some popcorn.

        1. Kyrielle*

          The IP address definitely identifies the network, and sometimes identifies the computer. The more common cases, it won’t identify the computer *unless* someone subpoenas logs from the network. But for static IPs with no network address translation (NAT – more on that in a minute), it will.

          A static IP is an IP address permanently assigned to one computer, on that network. Sometimes it’s unique on the internet, but if NAT is in use, it’s not.

          A dynamic IP is issued at need to a computer that connects, and those are *not* unique to that computer but they are unique to that computer *at that moment in time* (and on that network).

          Network address translation – so I can assign internet address A1 to a gateway, and have a huge network inside the gateway using addresses B1-B255, and all the internet sees it as IP address A1. The unique B1-B255 are unique *inside that network*, but not on the wider network.

          And all of this ignores the use of proxies (basically adding NAT) designed to obscure and hide your IP, which can in theory be a solution if someone has a static IP but wants to sneak around.

        2. The IT Manager*

          I actually haven’t done networking in quite a while. In theory you could determine the actual computer, but the reality with dynamic IP addressing (IP address is assigned from a pool of IP addresses every time you log on), web proxy servers, and other similar technology you could mostly only determine the network it came from.

        3. another IT manager*

          Broadly, the concern here is that IP addresses will ID your internet carrier, possibly the person/entity renting the circuit, and (eventually, depending on access to records), the physical address of the circuit (where it’s delivered).

          So my home IP address will show that I’m coming from (ISP) in the Boston area, and if you ask (ISP) correctly, they will tell you that I’m at (home address).

          My work IP will tell you that I’m coming from Comcast in … Utah, actually, which is weird, but okay Comcast. But again, Comcast will tell you exactly where we’re located f you ask the right way. And our phone number and my email address, because I’m the contact for the circuit.

        4. Not me*

          The explanations above are good. You can also use proxies to CYA if you want to hide your real IP for whatever reason. Or if you want to look like you’re using the Internet from a specific location, like, for example, a country that has a better Netflix selection than your own.

          1. Not me*

            Also, there are extensions like Ghostery that make you invisible to some IP trackers. It’s cool.

      3. Florida*

        If you are sending and receiving emails from a government email address, isn’t that public record? Let’s say Congressman ABC signed up for Ashley Madison using his government email, and I made a public information request of all of his emails between certain dates. Wouldn’t I receive a copy of the confirmation email that says Welcome to Ashley Madison as part of my public record request? Sure, your average American isn’t going to request that information but you can bet that the opponent of Congressman ABC will be requesting it.

        1. The IT Manager*

          Not if there was never an email sent from/to Ashley Madison which is what someone said how it works; the email addresses are never verified for non-paying accounts. The email addresses may be used as login IDs (maybe).

          But yes, if there was ever an email to or from a government account it would probably be stored somewhere on a backup; although, not necessarily easily accessible if it was deleted long ago. Although I don’t know for Congressman. I have always been a peon and citizens don’t make requests for my emails.

    9. Meg Murry*

      I don’t know if they necessarily should lose their jobs – however, if the company was otherwise looking to get rid of someone, it is probably a free pass as improper use of company email. I know this is how one company I worked with finally got rid of a slacker –

      The slacker was finally put on a PIP after constantly calling in sick, often the day before big projects were due, and my boss and I were the lucky ones who had to throw aside all our work and scramble to do his in order to keep the customer happy. After going on and on with the person regarding his performance, attendance, and inability to meet his goals, the final straw was that the company had a clause clearly stated in the employee handbook about no using company email or computer resources for personal use. Well, the genius was using his work email for Craigslist personal meet-ups, and they were able to use that as a clear paper trail violation of company policies. The stupidest part? His reasoning was that he didn’t want to use his personal (yahoo) account because he didn’t want his wife seeing the messages. Hello? It’s not hard to set up another yahoo or gmail or hotmail or anything else free email account. Not the sharpest crayon in the box.

      I am firmly in the “use work email for work and personal email for personal stuff” camp, and setup multiple personal email addresses if that is what you need to do. And this is another reason why.

      1. some1*

        I’m single and I would *still* set up a fake yahoo or gmail account to respond to craigslist personals in case I met a wierdo who used my email to try to find me.

        1. Cat*

          Yeah, my takeaway from this is that people need to learn how to set up a burner gmail account and forward it to their regular email. It’s free, people!

          1. JMegan*

            And it takes like five seconds. Get yourself dsfkghaseoiy@gmail.com, forward it to your regular email, and you’re done. I get that not everybody knows how to do that, but surely if you’re computer-literate enough to use a dating site, you’re also literate enough to come up with an anonymous email account!

            1. Cat*

              Funny story – my email is firstinitiallastname@gmail.com. I have literally had other people with the same first initial and last name sign up for dating sites with my address. I keep wanting to log-in and change their profile to something like “I do not know my own email address and thus am not computer literate enough to internet date.”

          2. Meg Murry*

            Or don’t forward it to your regular email if you are trying to hide it from a spouse or someone who would have access to your regular email – just log in to it from an incognito window on Chrome and make sure to uncheck “remember me”.

            Not hard. I’m not trying to hide from a spouse, but I have a burner account I don’t want associated with my “real” gmail account because I don’t want the spam, and this is how I deal with it. I use it whenever I have to give an email address to get a deal, and then only check it when I’m looking for coupons for online shopping or whatever.

            1. Lindsay J*

              Yeah, I have three email addresses. One for deals/spam, one for online communications that I actually want (message board comments, account statements, etc), and one for communicating with real live human beings.

        2. Dynamic Beige*

          That’s actually the best way to go about it. Someone gets weird or pushy, you can delete the account and set up another. Much easier to let go of some account you don’t really care about because you’ve had it for 2 months than one you’ve had for 10 years and all your family/friends knows.

          Why people who are looking for a secret affair wouldn’t figure this out is mind blowing to me.

      2. The IT Manager*

        I figure that’s why most people who used their work accounts used them. No way for spouse to catch them. Even a burner “email address” could be accessed from a home computer, but work email can’t or would likely be ignored by spouse.

        OTOH, yes, stupid, stupid, stupid to use government email. I am curious about ability to use fake emails that are never verified on AM, and may have to look into this more.

        1. Green*

          The fake emails are obviously fake. It’d be a long con to register someone else you randomly knew in the hopes that one day AM would be hacked…

    10. Green*

      Employers are definitely very concerned about this, primarily with people who used their work email addresses.

    11. Retail Lifer*

      I can’t feel bad about anyone getting in trouble for using their work email. It takes minutes to make a dummy account on gmail, Yahoo, etc.

    12. LBK*

      I think what makes me uneasy about workplaces taking action is that I don’t know how many are clear-eyed about it doing it purely because it’s using work email for a personal matter (as I suspect many will claim) vs because they have a moral problem with cheating. If the cheating were uncovered any other way, I would be really uncomfortable with a company firing an employee for it because I just don’t think that’s the employer’s business. With something that carries such a stigma and such high emotional stakes for many people, I’m nervous that decisions will be made that wouldn’t be made if it were any other kind of non-pornographic personal email, even another dating site.

      1. Green*

        I think most companies are not OK with you using their resources or otherwise associating your sex life with them, even if you were single. They wouldn’t be thrilled about other uses, but there’s a difference between using eHarmony.com from a work address and signing up for a porn site. In the end, very few employees who did not use their work emails will be fired (preachers, family values non-profits, etc.. the notable exceptions).

      2. Case of the Mondays*

        While I agree, I think we have to be aware of the employers that have legitimate reasons for morality clauses. People with security clearances and cops for example. The idea is the individual can’t have anything they wouldn’t want public going on because they are then open to blackmail. It can also go to someone’s credibility if they have to appear as a truthful person for testimonial purposes. “Officer Joe, you say you are being honest about the reason for this traffic stop but you have lied before right? You lie to your wife every Thursday when you say you are going to poker but are really meeting Sally Jane?” Or, you get the super Christian family man who is cheating and has a clearance. Blackmailer says give me x secret or I’m telling your wife and church about your affair. Those employers have a legit right to care about their employees having affairs.

        1. some1*

          My friend is a 911 dispatcher and from what she has told me, if cops got fired for cheating on their spouses, there’d basically be no cops at all.

      3. Case of the Mondays*

        I have a longer post that appeared to go into moderation. Basically, some employers have a right to care about their employees morality to avoid situations where the employee could be black mailed (clearance situations) or where their credibility is a job requirement (those who testify).

      4. Observer*

        If someone cheats on their spouse I can see the argument that it’s not the employer’s business. But, when you use your employer’s resources – ie the email assigned to you, you have just MADE IT their business. You don’t want your employer mixing into your private life? Don’t drag him into it!

    13. Ad Astra*

      I think that depends on the company and what their policies are about using your work email. I would think government agencies might have a big problem with this. But no matter where you work, it’s bad form.

      Maybe the cheaters thought they’d be less likely to get caught if the emails went to their work accounts instead of their personal accounts?

    14. Bekx*

      Just a thought — I imagine people used their work emails because it was “safer” from their spouse. Most people wouldn’t expect your work email to have anything bad on it, so I could see serial cheaters thinking that if they get caught they can just show their normal email and be like “See? Nothing bad!”

      1. LBK*

        +1 – usually a work email is much harder to access for someone who’s not an employee. A secondary personal address could be accidentally left logged in on a home computer. It kind of makes sense that if they were trying to hide it they’d use an email address they knew would never be accessible to their spouse.

      2. Emmie*

        Work emails also have a secondary benefit. If the subscriber uses that email to also correspond to potential suitors, a .gov, .edu, or a work email could lend itself to a perceived level of trustworthiness to potential suitors.

        1. Bekx*

          “…could lend itself to a perceived level of trustworthiness to potential suitors.”

          Ew. That just gave me such a gross feeling.

    15. themmases*

      I do find it interesting, but I feel kind of gross about it. I think this post (The Awl, “Early Notes on the Ashley Madison Hack”, link to follow) made some good points and I highly recommend reading the link in point 11 for some highly enjoyable food for thought.

      I think the best point the author made was that this hack is special in being basically intended to personally harm a lot of individuals, rather than for financial gain. People have been financially harmed before by identity theft from hacking, but their banks or the hacked stores absorbed a lot of the actual cost. This is hacking just to mess with people’s personal lives, it seems. Sure cheating sucks, but I think we should all be worried about vigilante hackers basically targeting sites because they don’t like the presumed personal behavior of their users.

      I don’t agree that people should be punished for using their personal addresses. It’s not an appropriate use of work email, for sure. However it doesn’t really show poor judgment to have failed to anticipate something that has never really happened before. I definitely don’t agree that government employees should face any additional censure. Americans have a really messed up idea that we own government employees down to the minutiae of their work environments and apparently even their personal conduct– essentially, that we own them as people. We don’t.

      2. Ashley Madison*

        I don’t necessarily think the poor judgment is that they failed to anticipate the site being hacked and their personal info being leaked. I think the poor judgment comes from choosing your work email to sign up for a site that has to do with finding a sex partner.

        I agree nothing should be done to people who used their personal emails. It’s none of anyone else’s business and the leak is bad enough for them. My husband was curious to look some people up out of curiosity but I encouraged him not to because 1) I don’t want to know if someone in my family or who I am close with is on there, and 2) it’s a violation of their privacy and these are people who we care about. He agreed and didn’t look anyone up. He just hadn’t thought of it that way at first.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I’m with you on not wanting to know if someone I know is on that list. It’s their monkeys/circus. If they want me to know they will tell me directly. Otherwise, life goes on. It’s not that I don’t care, but I have my own monkeys to tend to.

      3. Observer*

        However it doesn’t really show poor judgment to have failed to anticipate something that has never really happened before.

        This is not the first time a site with people’s personal information has been hacked, so it’s just not true that no one could have foreseen it. Maybe not in this particular form. But in the general sense? Absolutely. Besides, people’s work accounts get looked at ALL. THE. TIME. If you are a government employee, then it gets even worse.

        If someone is paying for your resources specifically to do a job, then that “person” does actually have a right to have a say in how those resources are used.

        If you don’t want your employer involved in your personal life, don’t use your work email or phone for that.

    16. Allison*

      While I appreciate that most companies are taking a reasonable, common sense approach to web browsing at work and not punishing people for, say, checking Facebook or Reddit or commenting on this site, I wouldn’t blame a single manager for firing someone after finding out they were going on Ashley Madison at work, or even for using their work e-mail to sign up. Not because they were cheating, but because they were using company resources to do something the company doesn’t approve of, and the company doesn’t want its name associated with the behavior.

    17. Rebecca*

      I suspect we’ll be seeing some more of the family values and moral police names popping up, other than Josh Duggar. He can’t be the only one riding the moral high horse to be involved in this. Other than the total hack and release of data, this is what bothers me the most: people who criticize and publicly state how others should act, sanctity of marriage, this is bad, and you are bad, that type of thing, while at the same time they are morally bankrupt. Such hypocrisy.

      1. JMegan*

        Yeah, I have to say I feel bad for all the newsroom interns, whose job for the next few days is going to be “make a list of all the famous people you can think of, and see if their names appear in the database.” Not only are you looking for a needle in a haystack, but you don’t even necessarily know if the needle is in there in the first place!

    18. Lily in NYC*

      I don’t know how I feel about the govt. emails but I’m feeling some sort of schadenfreude that the Duggar scumbag who molested his sisters had two accounts and was completely outed for it.

      2. some1*

        I agree. I don’t really care if people who aren’t my partner cheat on their wives, but his actual job was to convince people that gay people were ruining marriage.

    19. Not me*

      This whole thing is so weird, and it’s fascinating how it’s turning out to be so big.- I had no idea so many people used this site.

      I’m not sure how I feel about the public shaming aspect of it. I’m not always totally against the name & shame, but I feel like exposing everyone who ever used a website is kind of …intense.

      I definitely think people shouldn’t be using work email addresses or internet connections for it. But what should an employer do about it?

      1. WorkerBee*

        Two things about the name and shame that are important to remember – there are many, many people who joined the site for a laugh or for benign purposes, or haven’t used it in years (the records supposedly go as far back as 2004) – and more importantly, there was no email verification for free accounts, so anyone can sign anyone else up for it. That’s my qualm with this leak – there are people on there who may never have been on the site, let alone used it for an affair, or perhaps might have used it when their circumstances were drastically different. I can’t get behind wholesale shaming of people whose lives we just don’t know.

        2. Observer*

          And let us also keep in mind the sanctimonious hypocrisy of the people who did the hack and leak!

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        it’s fascinating how it’s turning out to be so big.- I had no idea so many people used this site.

        They advertise on TV, and that ain’t cheap. If they can afford to buy commercial time, there are a lot of people using the site — and paying. Enough to justify the spend to lure in more people. While they say there’s no such thing as bad publicity, I don’t think this hack is going to enlarge their subscriber base. I could see it going away and then coming back as a brand new affairs site with a new name, enhanced security or something.

          1. Observer*

            It’s not really surprising. Keep in mind that their entire business model is built on helping people act like scumbags. And, the hack has also provided proof, if anyone needed it, that they are not to be trusted either. Not just that they clearly didn’t take basic precautions with people’s sensitive data, but they were taking payment to do something that they were not doing. Why would anyone be surprised that they would trash someone for the sake of a few dollars, much less a lot of dollars?

    20. Not So NewReader*

      I had hoped that everyone got the memo, “What you do online can become public knowledge” but I guess not everyone found that memo.

      I am interested in finding out who hacked them. Apparently, not Anonymous?

      A thing that concerned me is one reporter mentioned there were people from .sa on the list. Then he added that people are killed in Saudi Arabia for adultery. It got me to thinking, how many people will end up dead over this? I had to set my popcorn aside. Sometimes things have far bigger consequences that one would think of at first glance.

    21. Honeybee*

      My personal feelings are that infidelity is a private matter between a person and their partner, and shouldn’t affect your job.

      However, military officials are subject to different rules/laws than civilians. Adultery is addressed in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Of course, an account on AshleyMadison.com is no ironclad evidence that one actually did commit adultery, but it could be used as evidence. This is especially because the part about adultery “must either be directly prejudicial to good order and discipline or service discrediting” and whether the adultery is private and discreet is considered…a public outing as a member of a prominent cheating website isn’t quite private or discreet, and might be judged prejudicial.

      With government employees, I think it’s more the higher-level elected officials and appointed ones with certain roles (like judges, attorneys, politicians, etc.) It’s that the appearance of it reflects poorly on the office, and a lot of governments don’t want to deal with the backlash. (That said if you’re an appointed judge or attorney general and you joined Ashley Madison with your real name and your work email…that shows bad judgment!)

  3. Anie*

    I’m feeling a bit weird about work today. I recognize that this is just complaining and I am likely the person being too sensitive.

    I got a new boss about 6 weeks ago at my primary, 4 day a week job. It’s been a struggle. He was very forceful about “easing in” and I am still doing a lot of his work. We disagree on a lot of policies, which really just results in him changing the policy to match what he wants (and as the boss, that is his right).

    I found his personal facebook the other week. I wasn’t looking! It popped up in my “Do you know this person” area. He’s a diehard Christian. Most of his posts were pictures of Jesus with captions like “Repost if you’re a part of God’s army!” Which is fine. There was nothing hurtful or bigoted.

    I just…. I’m always a little on edge when I first find out someone is very serious about their religion. A good percentage of the time, our values might not align. A good friend of mine is studying to become a rabbi, so I know my atheism isn’t something that prevents me from liking people. I am just not interested in talking about religion—especially in the workplace—because it makes me uncomfortable.

    And this is really making me uncomfortable! I work in medical publishing. Religion has nothing to do with our industry, but because it’s important to him it keeps coming up. First it was tiny comments/interactions that made me grimace but that I could get over.

    One example. He’d say, “Merry Christmas! I got the CEO to approve buying us new style books!”
    Me: “I’m so glad we’re getting new books!”
    Him: “Oh wow, I really shouldn’t have assumed you celebrate Christmas. That’s a thing these days. So do you? Celebrate Christmas that is?”
    Me: “No, I don’t actually, but it’s not a big deal.”
    Him: “Hmmm, well. This is still a perfect present. Happy Kwanza then.”
    Me: “I’m not black, so I also don’t celebrate Kwanza….”

    And today, it’s become something of a bigger issue. I work with him and our staff writer on weekly stories for our publication. He was incredibly enthused about a new story idea of his involving the Catholic Church. Apparently they released an index of companies that have catholic values and two were healthcare companies.

    I don’t know why this bothers me so much. I wish I could just roll my eyes and get over it, but it’s just…not what I expect when I go in to work. His idea won’t get approved. I know that. It’s so far in left field. Even if the company owner wasn’t Jewish, our focus is on clinical trials, not Catholic values.

    But because I know my personal views aren’t universally believed, I make it a point not to talk about sexual orientation, tattoos, alternative lifestyles, gender norms, or religion in the work place. If I’m going out of my way to be respectful so as to not make others uncomfortable, it bothers me that here someone is without that same care.

    I can’t say anything because he’s my boss, and even if he wasn’t there’s really no reason he shouldn’t/can’t make small comments. I need to keep reminding myself I’m being too sensitive.

    1. Happy Lurker*

      It’s ok to feel annoyed, just as long as it doesn’t interfere with your work.
      I really like your note that his Catholic values probably will not float with the Jewish owner. Made me laugh.
      Good luck!

      1. Steve G*

        But I don’t think this is true, the values are not different. Both revolve around the golden rule, I would say. Half of the customers/channel partners at my longest-ever job were Hasidic or Orthodox Jews. Obviously they are very religious. We never had any sort of ideological clash because I am Catholic. They would send us Christmas presents and we’d send them presents around the same time – not because they celebrate Christmas, but because most of them took off that week anyway.

        I just don’t want to support the notion that coming from different religions would be the cause of some sort of clash with the owners.

        **Though I think the story idea isn’t good because the focus is medical care, as you say. Not a religious view on medical care – on plain old medical care.

    2. Tagg*

      I wouldn’t say you’re being too sensitive. As a bisexual (closeted genderqueer) atheist living in the Bible Belt of Pennsylvania, I can totally relate to this. I’ve been lucky with my coworkers being generally chill, but every now and then I’ll get a patient that lays it on a bit thick.

      I will say this about your boss: He is most likely completely oblivious. In his world, everyone is amazed by God and wants to know all the latest information about the church, the doctrine, etc, etc. It just simply doesn’t enter his head that someone might not be that enthusiastic about it until he’s bluntly reminded of the fact. Unfortunately, nothing’s really gonna be able to change that.

      However, what is the general culture of your organization? Are a large portion of your coworkers as deeply religious as he is? If not, he might eventually get the picture (especially if he says the Wrong Thing to someone higher up than he is). Additionally, are you close enough with someone at his level or higher that you can confide in? They might be able to point out to him that hey, we don’t really mix religion and work here so tone it down a bit.

      Best of luck!

      1. Anie*

        Thank you! You’ve got a really interesting perspective. You’re right, too. Because his viewpoint is more mainstream, it would make sense for him to naturally assume most people have the same viewpoint.

        This does help. I keep putting a tone on everything he says when religion enters the picture, but I really don’t feel that’s an accurate representation of him. He seems like a nice guy; just not…aware. The only semi-practicing religious people here are all Jewish (and I think the owner may have recruited them from his synagogue, lol). But honestly, it almost never comes up except for when there’s a scheduling conflict with a holiday.

        1. Meg Murry*

          Yes, it sounds like with his comment about how some people don’t celebrate Christmas he’s not a complete jerk, just someone who’s really unaware that there are people different from him out there – maybe his previous job was all people just like him?

          I think if you can try to see it as uneducated instead of malicious that would help? Not that you have to be the one to educate him – but I feel like there is a difference between ignorant vs. intolerant.

          1. Steve G*

            Uneducated and intolerant because you said “Merry Christmas?!” I need to push back on that. Where is saying Merry Christmas so bothersome besides in certain pockets of the internet? In my melting pot here everyone says it and everyone takes off for Christmas whether they are Christian or not. Heck, even all of the Hasidic Jews from previous job took off around Christmas because no on else was working. So even if they weren’t celebrating per se, it was still a “holiday” for them.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  That’s not my read of it. Meg didn’t say he was intolerant; she said uneducated about/ignorant of other people’s views.

                  It’s not about saying Merry Xmas. It’s about his insisting on knowing if she did celebrate Xmas and making it into a “thing” in the workplace, which is extra inappropriate because he’s her boss.

                2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                  I agree with Alison – what was uncomfortable about the exchange was his “That’s a thing now…” (uh, people being of different faiths? always a thing) aside, and his follow up question.

                3. Meg Murry*

                  No Steve, it is not. I’m not saying uneducated as an insult. I’m saying uneducated as in “hasn’t been exposed to other religions and is just starting to realize not everyone celebrates Christmas.”

                  FWIW, If he just said “Merry Christmas” and left it at that, I wouldn’t care. It was the “that’s a thing now …” as if it hasn’t actually been a thing forever, it’s just a thing he was only recently made aware of.

                  My perspective comes from a friend of mine who came from a country (outside the US) where 95% of the population was Christian, and she went to a religious school. She knew Jews were a different religion, but she honestly didn’t know that they didn’t celebrate Christmas until she put her foot in her mouth when we were trying to explain why we were having a “holiday” party, not a “Christmas” party at the end of the school year. It wasn’t that she was ignorant in a “stick your head in the sand” kind of way – she was naive and hadn’t been exposed to anything else and hadn’t really thought about it. I had a similar experience when I was a kid as I had known about Christians and Jews but never really realized that there were other religions in the world – it just never occurred to me that their could be more choices. Again, young, naive and now I know better.

            2. Anie*

              No, you’ve misunderstood. I don’t have any issues with people wishing me Merry Christmas. I’m happy for the time off!

              I didn’t like his dismissivness by redirecting to Kwanza instead, because that showed a lack of understanding and sensitivity.

              I’m also feeling a bit on guard because his religion is so much a part of his identity that he’s shown he’s unable to leave it at home. I don’t make every conversation at work revolve around queers or feminist ideals even though they’re huge parts of my identity, so it bothers me that he can’t do the same. Neither relate to our work.

            3. TootsNYC*

              yeah, I didn’t get the impression that it was the “Merry Christmas” that was the problem–it was the stuff that followed, in which he was (I think) flat-out fishing to find out what her religious beliefs were.

              And she had to include the “Merry Christmas” because that created the entire context. It was the peg on which he hung the inquiry.
              He may have just say “Merry Christmas” without thinking; lots of people use that when the give someone a gift, even non-religious people. and he may then have gone down the road he did because he was awkward, but I do think he began fishing on purpose at some point.

        2. Tagg*

          I know exactly what you mean when you say you’re putting a tone on everything about religion. I used to bristle every time anyone mentioned anything religious, even if it was just a rather innocent “Have a blessed day!” as they walked out the door.

          It really helped me to think about the sentiment of the statement, rather than the details. That patient that just walked out wants me to have a good day, and I want them to have a good day, we just have a culturally different way of saying it.

          I know a lot of media attention is paid to the asshole religious people that make life difficult for someone who doesn’t follow their beliefs. These people absolutely exist, and they’re a problem – not only for someone like me, but for my patients as well. 99% of the people who come into my office are genuinely pleasant, nice people. I used to always equate religiousiocity with extremism and would worry that every “God bless you!” was just a precursor to “Go to hell, heathen scum!”

          That’s not to say I haven’t heard some blood-boiling conversations happen in my waiting room, but for the most part people are Nice and maybe just a little bit sheltered :)

        3. Steve G*

          As someone from NYC where there are lots of atheists + non-practicioners of many religions + a lot of Judaism…I do think you are being a bit oversensitive. Everyone throws around “Merry Christmas.” I think its a myth in the media or TV or somewhere else that it is not sensitive to say “Merry Christmas.” I mean, even if you aren’t Christian, most people get PTO around the end of December and thus “celebrate” it in some way. Obviously it is weird if you say it to a Jewish or Muslim person, but then again….

          You also say yourself that you went on his FB page. This is the second thread here (including the one about Ashely Madison) where people are asking how to handle information that they would not have had access to prior to the internet age. IMO information gathered this way is no one’s business unless it’s hateful or promotes abuse against animals, etc. But finding out that someone is a member of a religion that promotes peace isn’t really something to get worked up about.

          And I think his story idea is going to get rejected because it doesn’t have to do with your mission of medical care. I’d just b patient and let that happen on its own. I’d also advise against what Tagg says about going to speak with a higher up, because there isn’t an issue yet.

          1. Natalie*

            I think you’re misreading Anie’s post. She doesn’t say anywhere that the simple greeting of “Merry Christmas” bothered, she relays a whole conversation where he does come across as fairly tone deaf (the Kwanzaa thing in particular).

            1. Powers that Be*

              As a new to the Midwest East Coast Transplant although I “get” that I was a minority, it still is a little strange around the holiday season to hear “Merry Christmas” used instead of hello and goodbye. I never thought the response should be, ” I don’t celebrate Christmas” I just say it back as in “I wish you a Merry Christmas” If I was back in NYC, I probably would have thought it odd to hear it in daily work-life. On a tangential note – My Mother-in-Law (Minnesota Lutheran) once asked me ” what do your people do for Christmas?” Yes, she knew we were Jewish. She looked very puzzled at my answer. We volunteer at local hospitals and homeless shelters, eat Chinese food and go to the movies.

      2. PA Bible Belter*

        I’m also from the Bible Belt of PA, a heterosexual Christian that attends a very evangelical church. I agree with Tagg, the boss is likely oblivious and doesn’t know he is making you uncomfortable. It’s not an excuse, but he probably has to learn to stop making statements like this. I know I did. Luckily this blog has taught me a lot about professional interpersonal communication. I even learned a new word today (genderqueer).

        1. Steve G*

          But not every Christian is “evangelical” and/or has a rigid set of beliefs. Not sure how “genderqueer” got in the mix but since you brought that up….a lot of Christians don’t care if someone is gay or whatever. Just because the Vatican says something doesn’t mean the people believe it….we shouldn’t be making assumptions about what this guy believes.

          1. Tagg*

            If you’ll read my comment upthread, I essentially said this.

            Also, I’m genderqueer and mentioned it upthread.

          2. PA Bible Belter*

            My point was that based on my background/upbringing, I thought (in the past) that it was OK to make comments at work about religion and other sensitive subjects. That is likely the case for Anie’s boss, too (I wasn’t making an assumption that he was evangelical, just that he may come from a background where it is common/acceptable to make these types of comments). This behavior needs to be un-learned. Through this blog and other professional development, I’ve learned to modify my assumptions and language.
            The genderqueer statement was referring to the fact that I (coming from a community that is generally conservative and Christian) was not familiar with some of the terminology used in the LGBTQ community. I’m glad Tagg shared this because it was something I didn’t know, and I’m always learning new things here.

            2. Steve G*

              Oh OK, I thought you mentioned “evangelical” because they have a rep here for being strict (IDK, don’t meet any), and that they would be inclined to impose their lifestyles more on other because they are so strict.

              1. JB (not in Houston)*

                As someone raised in an evangelical church, whose family members mostly still belong to an evangelical church, and who grew up with many friends in different evangelical churches, I can say that in the area where I grew up, that would not be a misstatement. They were and are inclined to impose their lifestyles on others (ask me how I feel about that when I can’t go to the liquor store on Sunday! or listening to the Christian radio station while getting my teeth cleaned). This is not a blanket statement of all evangelicals, because I’ve known plenty (including me growing up) who did not. But even for me and a lot of people I knew like me, I sometimes unintentionally made people uncomfortable because I didn’t realize how what I was saying would make others feel.

                1. JB (not in Houston)*

                  And to clarify, I do still consider myself a Christian. I just don’t go about practicing it the same way.

    3. Ad Astra*

      Wow, that’s awkward. He obviously wasn’t sincerely wishing you a merry Christmas in August, so it doesn’t really matter if you celebrate Christmas. I think everyone understands that he’s saying “Look, I’m bringing gifts! It’s as if today is a holiday closely associated with exchanging gifts!” Why take the conversation down such a weird path?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think that the environment, tptb, etc will rope him in at some point. Either that, or else he will figure out he is in the wrong line of work. None of this helps you right now, though.

      I hope you actually explained about Kwanza like that, I hope you didn’t just think it inside your head. If it were me, I would try to give little, random cues like that. I would make sure no one over heard me, keep it between the two of you. I would use a tone of “I am trying to help you acclimate here”.

      He sounds like my father when it comes to the topic of awareness of other’s cultures/beliefs/etc. My father had very close to zero awareness. Maybe you can find that he is basically a well-meaning person. This would give you an entry, “Hey, you’re basically a well-meaning person so I thought you would want to know that ________.” Fill in the blank with whatever he needs to know. I had to have a few conversations with my father. (Shaking my head.)

      And if you can’t think of anything else maybe this thought will help, tell him this: “Jesus said above all else, love each other. People don’t have to go to his church and sit in his pew, in order for him to love his fellow sister/brother human being. Just being considerate of others can be an expression of love/faith.”

      1. PA Bible Belter*

        “He sounds like my father when it comes to the topic of awareness of other’s cultures/beliefs/etc. My father had very close to zero awareness.”

        Mine too. Not religion, but my dad (who is so well-meaning and kind, but not tuned into this kind of thing) unfortunately never caught on to changing language norms. He grew up in the 40’s and 50’s, when racial segregation existed. Some of the language he used (which was acceptable in the media in his formative years) set my teeth on edge growing up in the 1980’s because it had significantly evolved over 30-40 years. I had to constantly correct him, lest someone think he was a racist bigot…when in fact he never meant to be insensitive.

    5. AE*

      I’m also an atheist, but I’d be annoyed even if I agreed with him. Religion just doesn’t need to intrude into a workplace that’s not a religious workplace per se. As for Catholic values corporations.. what??? Why not Protestant values, Jewish values, Mormon values, etc.? That’s just so wrong in so many ways. Are all your customers & clients & contractors Catholic?

      If your company has more than 40 employees, you’d be wise to say something to gently rein him in. He’s going to get the company into trouble and nobody wants that.

    6. Lindsay J*

      Ugh, I feel you. It’s not my boss, but a coworker of mine has social and political views that are vastly different than mine.

      I’m generally fairly outspoken about my values and beliefs (to the extent that I’m pretty sure I’ve lost Facebook friends over them). However, it is not appropriate discussion for work, and my coworker’s political affiliations do not affect me at all so I don’t bring up the topic, and am quiet if asked.

      Said coworker brings his up quite often, and generally with the “wink wink nudge nudge” kind of attitude like he just expects that you agree with him. I don’t. But I also don’t want to make waves by saying as much.

      So mostly I suffer in silence and text likeminded friends to complain to them about it.

  4. Aussie Teacher*

    TL;dr version: I got the job!!! And it’s all thanks to Alison!!

    Long version: I’ve been a SAHM for 5 years and an avid reader of AAM for 4. I started keeping an eye out for part-time work last year and this year, but only applied for one or two jobs total. I credit Alison’s advice with giving me the impetus to get back into paid work/increase my earning potential etc a lot sooner than I otherwise would have.
    I posted last Friday that I had an interview on Monday. I was upfront in my awesome cover letter that I was only looking for 2-3 days a week, even though the ad said ‘full time (negotiable)’, and they decided to interview me anyway. Well thanks to Alison’s interview guide and all her advice on interviews, I totally nailed it! I had practiced answers to nearly all their questions (including “what is the achievement you’re most proud of” to which their response was,”Wow. That’s really impressive. Well done!”) and I was able to ask insightful questions when it was my turn.
    They called me back the next day to come in for a second practical interview (working with their choir). Then I met with the Principal and the Head of Department. Yesterday they called me and offered me the job! They have bent over backwards to give me the days I wanted, and they have been treating me like a valuable commodity they are keen to secure, rather than me feeling like I needed to beg for a job. Again, thank you Alison and commentariat for all the many discussions of how women need to act confidently in interviews (eg don’t downplay achievements).
    And I start on this coming Monday!! So I’ve been racing around organising child care for my kids, and it’s all exhausting and crazy, but I’m thrilled.

    2. AcidMeFlux*

      Congratulations! And these words of yours particularly struck me…. “they have been treating me like a valuable commodity they are keen to secure, rather than me feeling like I needed to beg for a job. ” I’ll remember this when reading about or discussing (arguing about) the recent news stories about Amazon. It’s not only about work / life balance; it’s about really valuing the human potential that every worker could offer.

    15. TootsNYC*

      they have been treating me like a valuable commodity they are keen to secure, rather than me feeling like I needed to beg for a job.

      When I hire people, that’s exactly how I feel about them!

      I’m so glad you got yourself a spot where they treat you like that.

    17. Honeybee*

      Congrats!
      There’s really to be treated like a valued potential employee rather than a supplicant. I start my new job on Monday, too, but throughout the hiring process my new company has treated me like a very valued new member of the team, and it’s already fostered so much goodwill in me without me even stepping into the door yet.

  5. TGIF*

    Last week I mentioned I’m hiring for a back office, research-intensive junior position, and that I had an internal applicant who is pursuing a degree in broadcasting. She also put her beauty pageant work on her resume, which I thought was strange at the time. In addition, she had had many short-term jobs over the last several years. She was one of two candidates I normally wouldn’t interview for this position, but since she’s internal, I had to.

    Well, she had her interview this week. She presented very well, seemed to have done her research on this particular role, and had thoughtful answers. I asked her about her crowded work history and she understood my concern. She said she chalks it up to a young mindset and not really knowing what she wanted to do. She said she now realizes she need to plant herself somewhere for awhile. Oh, and I also asked about how her pageant work has helped her in her career. She said as a shy person, it gave her confidence and the ability to interact with all different kinds of people. I was thinking, OK she might be a contender.

    Then at the end I asked her what area of broadcasting she wanted to pursue. She said she wants to be out front, reporting the news. Fine. But then she went on to say she tried the back end of broadcasting, like editing and voiceovers, and hated it. She wanted all attention to be on her. That’s when I decided that she wouldn’t be happy in a role like this one. It’s back office, glued to a PC all day, and not a lot of interaction.

    After she left, I looked over her resume again and noticed that she listed references, but there were no company names. Just name, position and phone for each reference. I thought that was weird. Also, one of the references was an IT person, which didn’t fit with her work history and the types of jobs she held. That kind of made me feel like maybe she was hiding something and didn’t want someone in particular contacted. Or maybe not. Who knows?

    The other interviews went well, although one, another internal candidate, was just plain painful. It was like pulling teeth to get anything out of her. I could have been done in 10 minutes, but I stretched it to 30 minutes, thinking maybe if I ask questions differently I’ll get her to open up. She was very…awkward. I guess that’s the right word. She came across as goofy and ditzy, I hate to say. There’s just no other way to describe it. Part of interviewing internally is giving feedback to HR, who will then give the feedback to the candidate. I plan to say something about it. I won’t be mean about it, but I think this is something she could easily work on and I think her current demeanor would really hurt her chances if she were to look outside the company.

    Anyway, no question here today. Just telling my tales.

    1. Anie*

      I like that you came back to us about actually interviewing the beauty pageant contestant! I like how she tied it in. the other stuff, yeah, makes her a not-so-great fit, but still interesting to hear her reasoning for including it on her resume. It seemed valid to me.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Many years ago I never checked references. Then one time I was having a hard time between two candidates and calling the references made a world of difference. Now, I always call and the information gleaned is invaluable.

      2. TGIF*

        Yes, they struck me as bogus since there were no company names and at least one of them didn’t tie in with they jobs she held. But she’s not in the running so no need to check. But it could be interesting, I’m betting…

    3. LadyTL*

      I wonder why she was interviewing for a back end position when she said she hated doing that work specifically. Wouldn’t that be counter productive for doing the work she wanted to do? Or was she hoping to springboard it into front end quickly?

      1. TGIF*

        She’s going to school for broadcasting, but she works in a totally different industry right now and plans to leave when she gets her degree in a few years. Her current job is a front end customer-facing role. The job she applied for is in the back office. Maybe she would like the back office in my industry, but I’m thinking not due to the research-intensive, solitary aspect of it.

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          That seems like a logical assumption to make, but did you ask her directly about it? (Mostly I’m curious how she would frame that apparent misalignment between career goals and job expectations.)

          1. TGIF*

            To be honest, I didn’t. I was walking her out at that point and it was just casual conversation. I then found two candidates afterwards that really impressed me and I’m trying to hire them both, so at this point she wouldn’t be in the running anyway.

    4. catsAreCool*

      “She wanted all attention to be on her.” To me, that’s a bit of a red flag. Even people who are in front of the cameras don’t always have all of the attention. Maybe this is just her still being young.

  6. Elkay*

    What’s everyone’s experience with JIRA? Previously I’ve relied heavily on Kanban boards but my current team looked at me like I’ve got two heads when mentioned boards as they only use dashboards. Am I the weird one or is it normal to only use dashboards to manage workload?

    1. AnotherFed*

      Love it. We’ve been playing with several tools as part of investigating alternatives to the homegrown tool we’ve outgrown, and I like it best of our options.

      Jira dashboards are so configurable that they could easily be the only tool to manage workload – you can set it up to show everything assigned to you, due dates, progress, etc., or if you’re managing other people’s workload, you can see summary stats about what they are working on, how much time they’re spending on it, what their backlog looks like, etc. Basically, if it’s important to you to see, you can add that field to issues (if it isn’t there already) and see it in whatever combination you want on your dashboard.

    2. SanguineAspect*

      JIRA-user here. I think, as with most things “agile,” what works for one team may not work for another team. Kanban boards are really great for getting an at-a-glance view of where things are with each team member, what’s sitting in the backlog, and (if you’re running actual Kanban) making sure that people aren’t “hoarding” tickets, making sure things aren’t getting dumped on QA all at once, and that things are actually getting done.

      I could see a developer preferring to use a dashboard to get, at a glance, what tickets are assigned to them, maybe how many days are left in a Sprint, etc., etc. There’s no reason why you can’t have a Kanban board set up for your team that you use/reference in your standups, even if they prefer to use the dashboards to keep track of their work.

  7. Jane*

    First time posting on the open thread! So of course I have an issue ….

    I work for a tiny business – there are four of us total: me (the office manager), my boss (the owner), a work-from-home employee who comes in a couple of days a week, and a part-time office assistant that I work with only one day a week. Because we are such a small company, the office assistant doesn’t technically work for me – he works for the owner, and I just manage schedules and client relationships. So when we work together that one day a week, it’s like we’re peers.

    This guy hates his job. I mean, HATES it. He is constantly complaining about the work and how bored he is. And in order to combat his boredom, he talks to me nonstop about my personal life. He’s asked me questions like “How can you stand it here?” and “What do you like about this job?”. At one point, I told him to just go home and that I’d let the boss know he was sick or something. He then said, “You know, whether you like it or not, I’m working here with you, and we both have to suck it up.” Every time I try to be firmly polite and ask him to stop distracting me or make an effort to get along with the others in the office, I get a rude and insulting response like that.

    He’s also constantly saying how close to being fired he is. I can honestly see why. He’s one of those people who swears all the time, and it doesn’t stop at work. He argues with the boss about temperature, music, etc (the owner has repeatedly told him that we’re only to have classical music or neutral ambiance-type music on, yet this office assistant will beg and beg for something more mainstream). And he takes a ten minute walk-around-the-building break every hour because he’s getting so “burned out.”

    I am heading back to school in September, which means I will be going down to a little less than half-time hours, which is why I think Boss doesn’t want to fire this guy (it’s too late for me to find someone new and train them).

    I don’t hate the office assistant, but I’m at a loss for how to deal with him. Being told to “suck up” his moodiness is not fun. Is there a better way to say “Please stop being so disrespectful to me and your boss, and just get your work done?” so that he actually listens? Or is it time to sit down with Boss and persuade him to take some action? (I have held off on doing that because office assistant makes no effort to hide his behavior around him.)

    …

    Stuff that may or may not be relevant: I am the only woman and the only person not born in an eastern European country, the remote employee and the owner have been friends for most of their lives, I have been working here for two years, and the office assistant has been here for a little less than a year.

    1. Swarley*

      That’s annoying. I’d just redirect the conversation as soon as it starts heading down a negative path. Something like: I can see that you’re frustrated, you might consider talking to boss about it. So getting back to project X, I was thinking we could start by compiling the data in a spreadsheet, etc.

      If he continues to complain, keep redirecting…
      Coworker: But I’m just so tired…
      You: I can understand, but we really need to get back to project X.

      1. Jane*

        I hadn’t thought about directing the office assistant to talking to the boss. Who knows, he might get assigned different work and end up happier.

    2. AVP*

      omigosh this would drive me so insane. I can’t speak to the cultural aspects here, but I also work in a really small business and have been the office manager in the past, and had subpar employees foisted on me that I couldn’t manage or discipline due to company structure.

      I think it would help a lot if you could just get him to shut up. Are there any physical structure you could use, i.e., could you separate yourself into a different office or didn’t part of the office with partial walls? Can you use headphones? Can you do anything else to make it clear that you need silence while you’re working, and he needs to facilitate that? If you make it about the work you have to get done, and you are struggling to do with his talking, he shouldn’t take it personally, or at least you have plausible deniability if he does.

      You could also say, “you know, I understand that you don’t enjoy this job, or that you’re struggling to maintain focus, but this is what I do and I don’t mind it and would really like to get back to the X account right now.” You don’t need to defend your life choices, just shift the focus onto the fact that you are there to do a job, you are getting paid to do it, and you want to do it well. It’s uncomfortable, but I’d rather have uncomfortable silence than have to deal with annoying people. You are not a babysitter or responsible for entertaining him or being his soundboard all day.

      1. Jane*

        Ugh, I do feel like a babysitter. I am definitely going to steal that quote – after all, I am just here to work. Thanks.

    3. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      Since you and office assistant will soon both be part-time, any chance you can just shift your hours so that you’re not there when he’s there? (Not ideal, since ideal would be “boss fixes the issue with Bad Attitude Bob,” but it doesn’t sound like “ideal” is on the table here.)

      1. Jane*

        That’s my goal, but I think I’ll still end up working a half day with him at the least for the next year. There are certain things that we HAVE to work on together, so that’s unavoidable unfortunately.

        1. E*

          As he said, you *both* have to suck it up. That would mean he needs to also try to work well with others. I don’t think he realizes how hard he is to work with when he’s complaining.

    4. Artemesia*

      Have a sit down with the boss about how distracting and dysfunctional this guy is and suggest hiring a temp with the idea of replacing him.

    5. The Strand*

      Maybe this is a crazy idea, but for the rest of this period, could he wear headphones and listen to radio or a podcast, or his preferred music? He sounds so unprofessional.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Let’s break this down a little bit, because he has many annoying things that he does.

      “He’s asked me questions like “How can you stand it here?” and “What do you like about this job?”
      You: I have already answered those questions and I am not going to answer them again. Please stop asking. [Here, you are refusing to deal with questions/issues that have already been discussed. Don’t keep beating a dead horse. remind him that you both talked about X yesterday/last week and then let him know you have nothing further to add. You see no need to keep discussing it.]

      “You know, whether you like it or not, I’m working here with you, and we both have to suck it up.”
      You: That’s right it goes both ways. I basically like my job and I am grateful to have a job. That is where I am at and it will not change. [Keep your sentences short, keep your reply short. Picture yourself as this great big rock wall that will not move. He has to see you as unwavering and totally committed to doing a good job. This is turning the tables on him, giving him his own attitude right back but you are using your strength for positive reasons.]

      OTH, you can let him ramble and then say, “Okay, that being said, I am asking you to stop interrupting me unless it is task related. Are you able to do that?” In other words, you blow by the insulting thing, reframe the same statement and ask again. You can even preface it with, “Okay, this is just a simple request. It does not require a big discussion. I am asking you to stop interrupting me. Can you do that?”

      If you have not discussed this with your boss, you probably should. Frame it as you are not able to concentrate on your work, you have to double check your work constantly and it is slowing you down or whatever accurately describes his impact on your work. If outsiders are complaining about his cussing, be sure to mention that. Or if people on the phone can hear him cussing in the background, be sure to mention that.

      1. Jane*

        Thanks for the advice. I think you’re right – refusing to answer the same questions every week is the way to go. I’ll try it.

      2. TootsNYC*

        also, feel free to say that YOU are bothered by his cussing, that you don’t like being around it, and that you find the cussing makes the atmosphere unpleasant for you.

    7. AE*

      My answer to whiners: If you hate this job so much why don’t you quit? Meanwhile, stop trying to make this place miserable for me too.

      That usually shuts them up.

    8. TootsNYC*

      He sounds so incredibly non-productive. Unproductive.

      I totally challenge the assumption that your company wouldn’t be better off finding someone new and training them.

      He’s an office assistant, for heaven’s sake! There have to be people who have experience in office stuff, and who have enough of a brain to figure out what needs to get done.

      I think you shoudl sit down with the boss and say, “it’s not just that he clashes with you–he gets almost no work done, and he is constantly interrupting and distracting me, and when I try to redirect him get gets nasty. Can’t we just get rid of him? There have to be other, intelligent people.

      He’s there only one day a week! If you find someone good, you can maybe have them help while you’re back at school.

      Also, feel free to say, “I need you to just be quiet now. Don’t talk–not at all. I’m working, and I need to focus.”

      Or maybe, “Why don’t you quit? I think you should quit. And now please hush–I need to work.”

      “Joe, I’m going to ask you to keep your unhappiness to yourself for a bit–it’s really bringing me down.”

      1. Jane*

        Yeah, it’s not like admin work is super hard and difficult to learn. A new person should be able to pick up pretty quickly. I have now asked my boss if we can just get someone new, and he’s made it clear that he really doesn’t want to deal with a new hire right now. Blah. I’ll try again in a month or so when maybe my boss realizes that having this guy around for four days instead of one is too much for him to handle.

        Also, this guy had zero office experience before this job. And he didn’t go to college (which I don’t judge him for, but that could be why he hasn’t picked up any professional habits).

  8. Mosquitos everywhere!*

    Next week, I’m going on a 5-day vacation to London. Whenever anyone in the office asks about my upcoming trip, they always point out that I’m going for such a short amount of time and criticize my five-day trip. Does anyone have any witty comebacks? I’m tempted to say that I’d be willing to extend the trip if they’d like to pay for it.

    1. UKAnon*

      Being British, I’d run with something about the weather.

      The radio tells me that there’s a heatwave in the SE today (anybody confirm?) but it’s rain across the rest of the country, so maybe just say you want to escape before UK monsoon season hits, or similar?

      3. Muriel Heslop*

        I’d probably say something like, “Thanks! I appreciate your good wishes! Cheerio” or “Does this mean you don’t want me to bring you some fish and chips?” and ignore them or act like they were being positive. Most people don’t even realize when they are being a total blizzard on someone’s fun.

        Have a great time! Cheerio! Sounds like a great trip!

    3. TNTT*

      That’s probably what I’d say. Or something about covering for me when I jaunt off for a month next time.

      Also five days is plenty of time to see and enjoy London! Have a great time.

    4. Jennifer*

      I think “I’d extend the trip if you’re paying for it” should cover the subject entirely.

      Also, it’s America, and most of us can’t afford even two weeks of vacation or be gone from work that long.

    5. Not tired of life*

      Ha! 5 days is plenty to see a lot of London and have a great time. Would longer be better? Sure but how long? 7 days, 2 weeks, a lifetime? The thing is to plan the time you have to your satisfaction and let the rest go. There’s always something more to see or do everywhere; enjoy what you choose to do and have no FOMO!

    6. Jerzy*

      I LOVE London! My husband and I stayed there for three days of our honeymoon before leaving to drink a ton of wine in France. We squeezed a LOT into those three days: Tower of London, Stonehenge, Windsor, Bath, and pubs, pubs and more pubs.

      I like your line about asking them to pay for an additional day or two, then just look at them wide-eyed like you genuinely think they’ll offer it up. Because unless they’re paying for it, how you plan your vacations is none of their business.

      Oh, but have fun!

      1. W.*

        That’s quite funny – Bath, Stonehenge and Windsor are outside London, so you saw a lot of the South of England. Op if you plan well I’m sure you’ll see loads – also you could turn it around on the ppl commenting and say oh have you been – what do you recommend? (Probably fine v few have been – they’re just jealous!)

    7. Heather*

      That’s what I would say! What is up with people? What difference how long you go for makes to them?

    8. themmases*

      That is weird. I went to London for a week last year and all anyone said was that they were jealous!

      That said, it is hard to see all the sights in that amount of time, and I just had to get used to telling people that somehow I went to London without seeing [big deal thing], because we were really loving something else. I’m pretty sure you could live in London and not have done everything that you “should” have.

      My partner and I stayed in the Ruskin Hotel, which is directly across the street from the British Museum, so we went there 3 days in a row until we were too tired to be there anymore, then retired to Russell Square to picnic and read in the park until dinner. We *still* didn’t see everything on our lists just from the British Museum. Seriously.

      1. Me*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t say it’s ‘plenty’ of time–I was there a couple years ago for a week and missed the Globe. On the other hand, I took a day trip to Oxford (so awesome!) so it’s all about priorities.

        Try this: “It’s better than a poke in the eye w/ a sharp stick.”

    9. fposte*

      I think it’s probably just blather, though, not serious criticism. If it’s just blather, a witty comeback (the “ha–are you going to pay for it?” type is perfect) is the right tone; if you think it’s serious criticism, I’d go with a shrug and puzzled “Okay.”

    10. Lily in NYC*

      Why would you need a witty comeback to such an innocuous comment? It’s just small talk – if someone told me they were going on a long flight for a very short trip I would probably say the same thing. I don’t understand why you think this is criticism; it sounds like mindless chatting to me. I went from NYC to Hawaii for three days and everyone commented on the length vs. the time to get there. And I agreed with them! People tend to comment on things that are slightly out of the norm, that’s all.

      1. mosquitos everywhere*

        Please trust me when I say it’s criticism. When more than one person brings it up more than once and have judgmental tones, I think it moves past innocuous small talk. Thank you other commentors for your suggestions and well wishes!

        1. JMegan*

          In that case I would go with the classic “Why do you want to know?” if you feel like engaging on the subject, or the shrug and “Okay” as fposte suggests if you don’t. If you actually do feel like they’re being judgmental or critical, then I would skip being witty and just shut it down.

          Also, have fun on your trip, it sounds amazing!

        2. Lily in NYC*

          That is weird. What the heck is wrong with your coworkers? I cannot fathom judging someone for the length of their vacation!

        3. Not So NewReader*

          “Why do you guys keep asking that?”

          “What an odd thing to say… [your voice trails off and you wander off to your next task…]

          “Why? How long do you stay when you go?”

          “Gee, a simple ‘safe journey’ was all I was really looking for here.”

          “I guess that means you are wishing me a great trip?”

          And if you really need to, you can always say, “Gee, you almost seem upset about it. Why?”

        4. TootsNYC*

          Use your tone of voice right back at them. Say, very levelly and patiently, “That’s all the vacation time I have. I’m sorry if it doesn’t meet with your approval.” And then immediately turn away and find some work to do.

          or, say, “Are you criticizing my vacation plans? I’m not sure how to interpret your tone of voice.”

    11. MK*

      Every single one of my trips abroad (all in Europe) was 4 or 5 days, and my experience was that 5 days is ideal for seeing one city (if you want to tour the countryside or visit more than one, yes, you need at least a week). 5 days is enough time to see a lot of things, but not so much that you fall into the trap of trying to see every single item of the travel guide; the limitation forces you to think about how you want to spent your time. No, you can’t see everything, but do you really want to see that British Dental Association Dental Museum?

    12. puddin*

      “You are right. It is not a lot of time. But it is what my budget can handle right now and I am still very excited!”

      “I would love to spend more time. I also want to travel as much as I can. Since this is what my budget allows for right now I would rather go and enjoy myself than put it off for ‘someday.'”

    13. BRR*

      Ugh I hate when people do this. You know roughly how much people make, you know how much vacation time your coworkers get.

      For professional responses:
      -I was able to fit in everything that I was eager to see.
      -I got really good airfare but it had to be those 5 days.
      -I needed to be back for X.
      -This is the only time SO could take off (if that works).

      For witty responses:
      -The Queen only was able to see me for 5 days instead of our usual two-week visits.
      -William and Kate only needed a baby sitter for 5 days.

    14. LOLwut*

      I was in London for seven days, and even that didn’t feel like enough! Especially since one day was basically stolen because of the Tube strike. But you sure can pack a lot into five days, especially in London where a lot of the good stuff is really close together.

    15. Steve G*

      I went on a 5-day, 4-night trip to Ireland. It was enough. The transatlantic flight isn’t SO long, the jet lag was the biggest issue. My mom’s friend used to go to Ireland for extended weekends.

      Not to mention I spent a total of about $220 per day, counting the plane, so every day counted!

    16. MoinMoin*

      Maybe a play on “I love summer in [wherever that’s chilly and wet], it’s my favorite week.”
      Like… “well, I wanted to spend the whole summer there and I’m told I am.” Or something. I’m not clever. But I AM a big fan of London and hope you have a great time. I was there less than 48 hours last time (spent time in other parts of the UK and Europe, then flew home out of London) and it was still better than not spending 48 hours in London so there’s always that. The Tower of London was very worth it in my opinion. I hope you have a great time!

    17. Intrepid Intern*

      You tell me. It’s gotten to the point that I try not to tell anyone I know when I get an interview– they’re too hopeful for me, and then they ask about it for months. It just feels like their hope is bludgeoning me.

    18. SherryD*

      I know you asked for witty retorts, but my response to idiotic feedback is usually, “Thanks,” or, “Thanks for the feedback.” As pleasantly or as deadpan as your mood allows.

    19. Cam*

      “You’re right! I think I’ll take a month of instead. Thanks for offering to cover my workload!”

      “I can’t leave my plants for more than five days or they start craving fresh blood.”

      “I don’t want to catch an accent while I’m over there! They can be so hard to treat.”

      1. catsAreCool*

        “I don’t want to catch an accent while I’m over there! They can be so hard to treat.” LOL

  9. Lil*

    How do you get over rejection and disappointment?

    I know better than to get my hopes up (over just about anything) but when I got an interview for a job that seemed so suited for me (the description, the location, the timing of it all) I foolishly thought maybe things were coming together. Oh how many times must I go through this before I know to rid myself of being hopeful at all?

    Yeah, I should’ve known better. I should know by now things like that just don’t happen for me. I’m feeling trapped and there’s no way out and it’s not going to get better.

      1. InterviewFreeZone*

        Agreed! It takes a lot of disappointment to become immune from the hurt. I have low expectations, but sometimes I can’t help but feel the sting of rejection still.

      3. BRR*

        Reading it 500 times on AAM really helped me. Having the mindset before you apply is also very helpful. Maybe I’m a Debbie Downer now, but I cringe when I see people say things like “dream job” or “the description was made for me.”

    2. Lamington*

      I feel the same Lil no matter the preparation is useless. Well hopefully we will move on to better things.

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I might be taking this way past the answer that you wanted, but a CBT therapist can help, often pretty quickly, with this kind of thing. What they would do is help you see patterns in your thinking that you can shift in order to feel better. For example: “things like this just don’t happen for me” can become “I didn’t get the job this time. There were probably a lot of factors at play, and I know that I have a lot to offer”. CBT therapists are pretty good at helping you break down the patterns of thinking that are making you feel trapped, disappointed and rejected and helping you learn how to shift those on your own (without the therapist).

      1. fposte*

        I was thinking this. It’s really hard just to train yourself to be different out of sheer force of will. I think also there are some free online resources for this–I’m pretty sure Moodgym, out of Australia, for instance, has some CBT guides.

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. There is a lot of overlap with DBT – Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, and either would probably be fine.

      3. TootsNYC*

        I had this thought as well–but really only because you seem to be buying into some “universal truth” that doesn’t exist (“things like this just don’t happen for me”). And that’s just not good for you.

        And I found cognitive behavioral therapy to be pretty effective at changing thinking patterns.

    4. sittingduck*

      I’ve been there, when I was job searching for 3.5 years before the job I have not fell into my lap.

      Its hard to look from the outside and see how you actually aren’t the perfect fit for a job that you feel you are perfect for. I actually first applied for a different job at the company I now work at, but didn’t get it, I was feeling how you are now. However, now that I do work here, and see the work I would have been doing had I gotten that job, I’m SO glad I didn’t get it, I would HATE the work my co-worker does, (but she loves it) and the job I ended up with is so much better suited for me!

      Try to remember that you don’t have all the information on the job, and maybe think about it from the perspective that since you didn’t get the job, someone else who has possibly been looking just as long or longer, did get the job. Perhaps you can try to be happy for that person and just remember that your perfect job will come along eventually.

      I know its wicked hard to think this way when you are in the midst of being rejected, good luck!

    5. bassclefchick*

      I’m with you! I’ve been a temp for 4 years and have had several interviews in the meantime, but nothing ever pans out in my favor. Job hunting is such a soul sucking activity. Just know you aren’t the only one and we’re all in this together! Good luck!

    6. Malissa*

      I focus on the next opportunity. But that’s hard when they get few and far between.
      I also try to keep in mind that there’s probably a good reason things didn’t work out. Like that the boss would be horrible or something.

    7. Retail Lifer*

      It never gets much easier. The best way to handle it is to vent with other people that are going though exactly the same thing. Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of us.

      I’ve applied to about 100 jobs this year. That’s resulted in interviews at only four places. One of which was a retail management job. I’ve been in retail for 21 years and a manager for 17. I didn’t even get a second interview. I had to rescind my interest in another job because the paycut + cost of insurance wasn’t doable, even with them offering me a bit more than they normally offer people.

    8. nameless cog in the machine*

      You have to just hang in there until the next opportunity for hope presents itself. I was feeling pretty down last week and this week after a phone interview that didn’t go well and radio silence after an in-person interview that I thought DID go well. A couple days ago I had a better phone screen with a hiring manager who said she’d like to schedule an in person interview as soon as she can match up all the interviewers’ schedules. It made me feel optimistic again. I know fixating on any job isn’t healthy, but imagining all the possible futures when you’re job hunting is emotionally exhausting, and we need some sources of hope.

    9. cuppa*

      I feel your pain. I’ve seen some of the hindsight that the other commenters have mentioned, and some days it makes me feel better, and some bad days it doesn’t. I think the hardest part for me is wanting it to be MY time instead of watching it be everyone else’s time.

      Good luck.

    10. Dang*

      I was there for a long time, and you have my sympathy. It was always the ones that seemed *perfect* that were the most depressing. Something will come through eventually, just keep plugging along.

      1. Art Vandelay*

        I’m sorry. I feel the same way but for my partner who is not getting interviews for positions he’s ridiculously qualified for. I just don’t understand people sometimes.

    11. Another HRPro*

      I think it is good to be hopeful, you just don’t want to build up each possible opportunity as “the one”. Being hopeful about a position actually will help you during the interview process. So don’t lose that.

      The side effect can be disappointment. For me, I personally acknowledge the let down but I don’t dwell on it. I accept it and then move on. Nothing good can come from dwelling on not being selected for a position. I also hate the term “rejection” as in “rejection letter”. They aren’t rejecting you. They are selecting someone else. (Ok, occasionally they are actually rejecting the person as they are a totally unqualified freak, but that is not the norm!) Every time you don’t get selected, immediately focus on a different opportunity.

    12. NotAFed*

      Man, I’ve been where you’ve been – so. many. times. I would apply for a job that seemed like an awesome fit for me, interview, get to the final round…and then not get selected for numerous reasons. It was so demoralizing and I was starting to get really down on myself, my skills, abilities…just everything.

      But recently things turned a corner for me. I got two offers within a few weeks and just accepted one. I had been looking for a new job for almost two years.

      I think the key is to keep pushing forward, even when you don’t feel like it or want to. It’s about applying for jobs when you’re tired. It’s about pulling that awful, uncomfortable suit out of the closet and putting it on, and going in for an interview, even when it’s the last thing you want to do.

      At the beginning of my career, someone gave me some really good advice – “Every ‘no’ gets you closer to a ‘yes.'” You’re getting closer to that yes, Lil – hang it there.

    13. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

      Since I gave up hope I feel much better.

      No, really. I’m usually pretty optimistic, but whenever I’m job searching I just have to turn myself into the biggest pessimist ever, or I open myself up to emotional chaos. Give up hope. You’ll feel much better.

    14. CheeryO*

      Ugh, I’ve been there. I was so distraught last year when I didn’t get a job that I thought would have been pretty much perfect for me… it was honestly one of the worst days of my life (realizing that yes, that means I have things pretty good).

      I don’t know if my story will make you feel better, but here goes anyway: That was my second rejection from the same agency, one that I always had my heart set on. (I literally crashed my car when I got the first rejection… it was very minor, but still!) I had an interview for a third position a few months later, and I was just SO over it. I gave the best interview of my life because I just didn’t care enough to be nervous. (I was actually almost late for the interview because I didn’t even bother leaving early.) They hired me, and almost a year later, I am so glad that things happened the way that they did. My boss (who came off as a total nutter in the interview) is amazing. The work is much more interesting than it looked on paper. I’m learning so much more than I would have in the second position, and my growth potential is much better compared to the first position. (And wouldn’t you know, both of those positions ended up going to acquaintances, and they’re both total rock stars – the kind of people who you’d be grateful just to be competing with.)

      So I guess the moral is to (1) be careful about getting too attached to any one opportunity, no matter how perfect it seems, and (2) to keep at it, because you never know what’s around the corner.

    15. Dana*

      I would also love to hear the advice on this. I’m recently serious about my job search efforts and within the last two months or so have applied to a handful of positions–stretch positions, part time ones–anything that sounded like me just to get my head in the space. No interviews yet. I got rejection letters from the stretch positions (not surprised) but I am pretty demoralized by getting a rejection for the part time position at a place I really wanted to work that was possibly the lowest entry level position. I would love to work part time because I’m desperate for more work-life balance and I conveyed that in the cover letter. Really felt like “oh, you aren’t even qualified for THIS!”

    16. AE*

      Ask for feedback. The worst that could happen is that they say they don’t do that. If they do give you helpful feedback, use it to polish your act for the next one.

  10. PecanSandies*

    Early this year I started a job with a small company. The job description said I would be doing A, B and C. For a few weeks, that is what I did and was getting good results. Then the owner decided I should also be doing X, Y and Z, in which I have little to no experience. But I tried my best and used my own time to read about X, Y and Z and engage in any available tutorials I could find in order to get better. Last week the owner called me with no notice to tell me that they hadn’t set me up to succeed and that they would be letting me go, effective immediately. A few days later I got an email from a coworker who said that in addition to her own work, she was now getting my A, B and C duties dumped on her as well. She hasn’t really done A, B and C before and certainly does not have the skills required to do it, and I wasn’t asked to stick around to train her, so now she’s in a tough spot too. I imagine the owner will soon ask her to also do X, Y and Z.
    My question is what do I say when asked why I left my last job? Can I say that it was a short-term position or that my position was eliminated? The owner stressed that I wasn’t being fired for poor performance. I think it was also partially a financial decision that they couldn’t keep me on, but he didn’t say that. He also promised me a glowing reference.

    1. Ama*

      I think you’ve got an out in just saying that you were hired to do A,B,and C, and the owner decided they needed someone with experience in X, Y, and Z. You don’t need to bring your coworker into it at all (as far as anyone you interview with knows, you aren’t privy to anything that happened at your company after you left). As long as you aren’t applying for a job that requires X, Y, or Z that should be fine.

      1. Anyonymous*

        The problem is that I wouldn’t mind learning how to do X, Y or Z, I would just need to do it at a more junior level. I was basically expected to be at a manager level at something I hadn’t done before but which was related to A, B and C. If I could get an assistant or associate level job doing it, I’m sure it would be fine. I just wasn’t ready/prepared to be The Man at it.

        1. fposte*

          All of which is reasonable. “I was hired to do marketing and they expanded duties to coding. I’d love to start coding, but I wasn’t up to the level they needed.”

          1. PecanSandies*

            That doesn’t make you look super inexperienced, though? I was worried about saying that because X, Y and Z are not as different from A, B and C as marketing and coding are. They are in the same general scope, but X, Y and Z just required more skill and experience than A, B, and C. It’s sort of like they hired me to write short stories but then expanded the duties to writing full novels. I feel like to an outsider, they’d be thinking, “Why would that be so difficult to adapt to?”

            1. fposte*

              But it sounds like it’s true–you weren’t experienced enough for what they wanted. That’s okay to say.

              1. BRR*

                Yeah, you need to be honest. Changing the reason you were fired is a big no (especially if you are using the owner as a reference, which as I say below is a good thing if you were fired and can get a good reference from the owner).

                You can add where your experience level is and that they needed someone to be up to a certain level quicker than you would have been able to get there without being able to devote more time to training/you had to focus on A,B, and C and couldn’t learn X,Y, and Z to the level they needed while still doing A,B, and C.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              “Why would that be so difficult to adapt to?”

              The boss that you WANT to work for will know that making the switch is not an instant thing. Your former boss missed that point among other problems.

        2. Ama*

          I think adding that kind of clarification is fine, too — “company needed a true expert on X, Y, Z, and though I’m interested in developing my skills in that area, I didn’t have the level of experience they needed.”

    2. Beti*

      If they are piling on unrelated duties onto unqualified/untrained employees, it certainly sounds like financial problems to me – they should be hiring an additional person to do X, Y, Z but can’t afford it so they assigned them to you and then the other woman. Otherwise, can you said that it wasn’t a good fit? You were hired to do A, B, C which you are great at but it turns out they needed someone to do X, Y, Z which isn’t your area of specialty. I know it’s sometimes hard to give honest answers without sounding like you are badmouthing the company. (I’m sorry they were lame.)

    3. Jerzy*

      I think you can say your former company eliminated your position due to financial constraints.

      You might also want to reach out to your former boss and ask if he or she will be a reference for you as you look for a new position. That may also help eliminate any thoughts on behalf of a potential new employer that you have something to hide from your previous position.

      1. BRR*

        If the owner isn’t going to say it was for financial constraints I wouldn’t say it. It is a good sign to employers the owner will serve as a reference but PecanSandies needs to be in alignment with what the owner will say. If PecanSandies says they were fired for budget reasons and the owner won’t say that, it will likely prevent an offer.

        Also don’t say it was a short-term position if you are trying to imply it was a term position and don’t say it was eliminated. This was a questions I asked Alison once and she replied via email. I was in a similar position and they restructured after I was fired. They didn’t fire me as part of the restructuring, they fired me then restructured. They set you up to fail and it’s perfectly ok to say you were hired to do A,B, and C but then the owner wanted you to do X,Y, and Z and the owner admitted that when you were hired your skills in X,Y, and Z weren’t being considered.

    4. Nobody*

      I would suggest talking to the owner to find out how he plans to describe your departure. You wouldn’t want to say your position was eliminated only to have him tell a prospective employer that you were fired due to incompetence (although he probably wouldn’t say that if he offered to give you a glowing reference). It looks like he feels bad about the whole thing, so if you tell him what you plan to say to prospective employers about this job, he will probably agree to say the same thing.

      1. BRR*

        I agree with this, if you’re using the owner as a reference make sure your stories are aligned. If you have doubts about what he’ll say, this might be one of those situations where a friend can pretend to do a reference check.

    5. TootsNYC*

      absolutely, you have an out:

      The duties of the job changed from something you were strong in for something you had significantly less experience in. You gave it a good shot, and sought out online training on your own, but ultimately it just wasn’t working, so you and they decided to move on.

  11. themmases*

    I have a CV question.

    I’ve had numerous (3 and counting) research assistantships at the same institution. While some of them are short enough that I otherwise wouldn’t include them, they represent a career change for me from clinical research to public health so they do add new skills and big public health topic areas (e.g. physical activity, tobacco control) that are important in my field.

    Given that, would you list them all– briefly, of course? What about on LinkedIn?

    And would you include any information on your CV about what the program even is? Some of these projects are part of programs run by big organizations in my field (think federal organizations related to public health and medicine).

    1. Artemesia*

      I would list them as one thing — Research assistantships at Giant Octopus U and then detail the content briefly — but it is one category/line on the resume.

    2. Oatmeal*

      Here’s what I do:

      University
      Research Assistant (Physical Activity; Tobacco Control)
      Dates (2009 – 2010; 2012 – 2013)
      Bullet points

    3. Anonsie*

      Agreed with Artemesia and Oatmeal above. Something like

      Giant Octopus U
      —Research Assistant, Project [date-date] and Project [date-date]
      —–bullet
      —–bullet
      —Clinical Research Assistant, Project [date-date]
      —–bullet
      —–bullet

      Arranging the formatting in whatever way doesn’t make it crazy long (not sure how many lines the above would give you, but you get the idea). And include some word somewhere in there that indicates what topic and type the project is (smoking cessation education, oncology clinical trial) and possibly any relevant side notes on what regulatory or funding agencies may have been involved (PCORI, FDA) since dealing with those is important experience.

      1. themmases*

        Thank you! I like this format a lot.

        I think part of my problem is that each of these are totally different PIs and research projects that happen to be housed in the same research institute. The PI and project name are obviously super important if you’re going to stay in research– more important than saying whether the project happened to live in the graduate college or a specific institute.

        Right now I have a header with the job title, institution, date, and then my first bullet point is a short project/funder description (“Illinois grantee of the CDC Land Squid Surveillance System”). Then the other bullet points are normal, accomplishment-based ones.

        1. Anonsie*

          I think that makes sense. I usually list the PI in whatever description of the project I give (“blankety blank thing sponsored by Funding Agency under Dr. Person”)

        2. TootsNYC*

          I think it’s fine to have the shorter, or less relevant/important/prestigious item be pretty cursory, and then have more accomplishments/detail on the ones that matter more.

    4. TootsNYC*

      I would list them individually, but group them if possible (but I tend to do a chronology, so that might not work if you worked elsewhere).

      Remember one other important thing they show: That you were sane and competent enough to get repeated assignments at the SAME company, over and over.
      That’s why I think you should list them individually, with their own chronology. Even if they aren’t terribly relevant, they show the reputation you’ve built inside the institution.

  12. BRR*

    So an update. At my 60 day check in for my 90 day PIP, it was determined after a screw up last week that this isn’t going to end successfully (and it was on a project I recommended too, last time I will be proactive at work). I at least get to work until my PIP is up and my manager said I can take as many sick and vacation days as needed. Also there is someone in HR who does career development and while I have heard some of his resume and cover letter advice, which I don’t agree with, he is going to help me to see if there is another position at the university I would be a good fit for. In a sense I am relieved as the PIP was causing pretty bad anxiety, now hopefully I can get an interview/hired before my PIP is up.

    1. Mimmy*

      I’ve been following your story…good luck with this. I know how it feels to be on thin ice at work. At the job I was laid off from, my new-hire probationary period was extended twice to give me a chance to get it together. My problems was more with my confidence–I never got any truly bad feedback from callers I helped; it was that I wasn’t always confident with the information / suggestions I was providing and constantly asking questions.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Aw, I’m sorry. It sounds like this was always going to be the outcome and it was stressing you out so much. It’s almost better to know and not be stressing over it. So sorry though :(

      1. BRR*

        Thank you for your kind words. It was stressing me out and I was barely staying afloat. I was close to pulling through but like the follow up letter Alison had posted from someone who survived a PIP, I feel like I would have always been on edge (not that I would have stopped my job hunt). I actually do feel so much better now knowing.

    3. fposte*

      This has just been tough. I’m glad that they’re offering resources to give you a good landing place; hopefully a better fit and a fresh start will make your days a lot brighter.

      1. BRR*

        Thank you for your support and the advice you have provided me through this tough time. At the moment I am excited about the new possibilities that are available to me.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      I sure can understand why you’d be anxious. I’m sorry you are going through this; I know how much it sucks.

    5. Another HRPro*

      I’m very sorry to hear this BRR. But now that you know, you can start taking steps toward something else. I would strongly encourage you to look outside the university. It could work out well as there may be position that would be a good fit. But I would be concerned that you would have to deal with having a history of a PIP. That doesn’t mean it can’t work out and I have in fact seen situations where it all does. That just isn’t the norm. I encourage you to ramp up your job search. Good luck.

      1. BRR*

        When the HR representative suggested other positions in the university I was sort of taken aback (as was my manager), like “why would another department hire me when I’m on a PIP?” I’m definitely not counting on anything here though. I have been looking around since this all started and this weekend will definitely be full of application sending.

    6. brightstar*

      I’m sorry to hear this, at the least the stress of the PIP is off of your back now. Having worked a position that I wasn’t a good fit for and that made me feel hugely incompetent, it’s a huge relief being in a position that is a good fit. I hope you find something that’s better suited for you!

      1. BRR*

        It’s really nice at the moment getting to do all the functions of my job I like and am good at. I’m happy I get to stick around because I like what I do, I can say I’m employed to other jobs, I’m getting paid, and I like to keep busy.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. This situation so sucks. I am sorry this is happening to you. You’re level-headed and reality based. These two things will help you so much. It sounds to me that you are pretty well liked, too. (I think I noticed that before from something else you said.) I suspect people will offer leads/tips. If so then at least check it out and see if it’s anything for you. I think in the long run you will land in a good spot, even though, now is not a great time at all. Sending a bunch of good vibes your way…

      1. BRR*

        Aww thanks for such a nice message (I’m loving the compliments!).For as much anxiety as I suffer from I’m confident I will land on my feet.

    8. Vancouver Reader*

      Sorry to hear that the PIP is not going as you would’ve liked, but I found when I wasn’t performing up to par in a job, sometimes it’s better to have a fresh start.

      Good luck!

    9. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Aw, BRR, I’m sorry to hear that! You’re so clearly a smart and thoughtful person, and I would bet vast amounts of money that you’ll look back on this someday as a blip and not anything that will define you. I am hoping good things come quickly for you.

  13. InterviewFreeZone*

    I know this has been discussed on the site before, but I want to vent.

    I was contacted by a very large and extremely well-known non profit organization about a senior level position last week. I was working so the call (around 4pm) went to voicemail. I called back the next morning and left a voicemail with the HR woman. I didn’t hear back over the next two days, so I called again…voicemail.

    Yesterday I got an email stating the position is now filled but that they would like to keep me in mind for other openings that are coming up. I really wanted to reply and say “if this is how you conduct your searches, I’d rather not be considered.”

    How rude! Clearly she had all my contact information. How do you just ignore a candidate’s calls when you reached out to them about an interview?

    1. YOLO*

      Ha! Working at an organization very similar to what you’ve described, I can say that the HR can be a disaster at even the most prestigious and well-funded institutions (it was a surprise to me and I remain baffled as to why it has not improved in the years since I was hired).
      Don’t take it personally, but do realize that it’s a red flag about where you are interested in working. If that organization is anything like mine, the same level of dismissiveness towards people on the outside (or anyone perceived to be a ‘supplicant’ or of lower rank) will pervade the workplace. It’s sad, it’s unnecessary, and it’s a compromise you’ll have to make in order to stay.

      1. InterviewFreeZone*

        That’s exactly what I tried to tell myself! But this organization is so huge! And this person is clearly doing recruiting for the entire East Coast. I’m just taken aback by the treatment. This person isn’t located anywhere near the office I would have been interviewing in, but I’m really curious if the hiring managers have any idea that this is how she’s handling applicants. To boot, weeks before this phone interaction, I was contacted via email saying I urgently needed to take a personality assessment, that took about an hour of my time, if I wanted to be considered. Ugh, just overall left a bad taste in my mouth.

    2. Allison*

      I do sympathize with people who contact candidates about positions, only to find out that, actually, the hiring manager is not interviewing any new people because they have a finalist in process. It can be a difficult thing to communicate to the candidate without sounding like an idiot, or an asshole, not to mention they may have wanted to keep you in limbo in case the finalist didn’t pan out. That doesn’t excuse ignoring you, though! They should have figured out what to say to you, and called you back the next day to break the news to you, even if it meant admitting a mistake on their end.

    3. BRR*

      Ugh I hate when employers do this. I’d leave a review on glassdoor and move on. If they ever contact you about another position you can express your concerns due to your treatment at that time.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      For what it’s worth, there can be perfectly legitimate reasons for this. She might have been out sick or on vacation when you called back and by the time she returned they’d made a hire (or were on the verge of making a hire and didn’t want to waste your time, which is a good thing).

      1. Not So NewReader*

        If folks were just given a bit more context, just a few more words, then companies would be less apt to leave people with a negative memory of that company.

  14. Oatmeal*

    I am trying to decide whether I should decline a job interview that I have scheduled for next week.

    I really don’t think I’d take it if offered – it is an Event Manager role (similar to what I am currently doing) for a not-for-profit organization. THe org is lower profile than my current organization, very small, and while I identify with their mission, their events seem really kitschy and outdated (from what I’ve found on their website.)

    The pros are that it is close to home and their newly built office with river frontage is stunningly gorgeous.

    There are a couple other “yellow flags” – there is no staff diversity (all middle aged white women), their website looks like it is from 1995, and I suspect from their social media that it is the kind of place that puts a big emphasis on “everyone here is like family!”

    What would you do? Interview? Cancel?

    1. Anie*

      I might go just to see if what I was thinking played true, but if I’m wary of using the vacation time or tipping off my current company that I’m interviewing, yeah, I’d probably not go.

      1. Oatmeal*

        Thanks! I don’t think it would tip off my current job, and I wouldn’t have to use vacation time. I am basically 100% sure that I wouldn’t take the job, though, so I am feeling like 1) I don’t want to spend time preparing for this and 2) I don’t want them to call my references (because I’d hate for my references to spend time giving a reference for a job I don’t want to take.

        It’s probably self-evident, but I am feeling all kinds of dread around this.

        1. jarofbluefire*

          For what it’s worth, earlier this year I had a series of interviews in precisely this situation [your description has me really wondering if it isn’t the exact same org]. I didn’t get warm fuzzies and saw many ‘hmmm’ moments from what I found online [the Glassdoor reviews were particularly insightful], but went in with a ‘hey, these people do work for a mission that is really wonderful, let’s see what the deal is.’

          Every concern I had was reinforced by the interview process, clearly and without doubt. Since I had the time and the bandwidth, I don’t regret the effort spent, and I felt better for having my hunches validated.

          Would it be possible to hold your references’ information until such point as you were sure you were interested? I’ve taken to keeping mine to myself until I’m at the point where I’m all in, and it’s worked out very well for me thus far.

          1. Oatmeal*

            Hah – I think there are many small organizations like this one that are similar in their approach.

            They asked me to bring a list of three references to the interview… I honestly wouldn’t know how to end the interview: “Thanks for the practice interview, I’m not interested, so don’t call my references, BYEEEEE!!!”

        2. Lily in NYC*

          If you are 100% sure then cancel. Just send a nice email stating that due to some changes at work, you are no longer looking.

          1. Oatmeal*

            Thanks. I think that is the direction I’m leaning in. I’m kind of overthinking the whole thing because the entire internet says “You never know! Don’t turn down an opportunity! It could turn out great! It’s good practice!” Plus the org hasn’t done anything atrocious, it’s just a bunch of small stuff that contributes to a bad gut feeling about fit on this one.

            1. Mockingjay*

              Trust your feelings. I withdrew my candidacy from a job last week. There wasn’t anything huge as a flag. I would just be trading one small contractor company for another, both of which have lost some business in the past years (although the new one has won some work recently). The interview revealed that the position was middle rank, and the work rather rote; I know I would be bored quickly. I grabbed the offer from Current Job when I was being laid off; I was paranoid about unemployment. Had I taken a deep breath and thought it over, I would have realized that Current Job is not right for me and would have looked more. So this time I thought it over.

              I’m still looking, but I’ll probably stay here at Current Job through winter. We have some vacation planned, and I have leave saved up for it, which I will lose if I don’t use (company does NOT pay out leave).

              (Besides, if I leave, how else can I relate the latest chapter in the Meeting Minutes Saga?)

            2. Honeybee*

              I wouldn’t go to an interview for the practice, but I did continue on an interview process for a job I thought I wouldn’t take were I offered it. I surprised myself by becoming increasingly interested in the job with each successive interview. Part of it was that my first interview (a phone screen) was with an HR person but the second interview was actually with someone on the team I’d be joining.

    2. Violetta*

      I would go. Maybe they’re hiring because they’re aware of those problemss and would like to shake things up a little?

      2. Jerzy*

        That’s what I was thinking. Go into the interview with a list of ideas of how they can improve and what it would do for their image. If they like your ideas and want to let you run with them, this could be a great opportunity. If they don’t, they won’t offer you the job. It really can’t hurt.

      3. CollegeAdmin*

        I agree with Violetta. If these are things they want to change, you could be that change-maker they’re trying to bring in! I say nothing ventured, nothing gained here.

      4. Oatmeal*

        Maybe. It’s their entire event model that I find disagreeable, though. It’s all peer-to-peer fundraising, which I find completely annoying as a practice. I doubt they are going to make a major shift away from that.

        2. BRR*

          I was going to say take it until this comment. Unless it is clear they’re changing their fundraising model that is going to stay as it is.

    3. VolunteerCoordinatorinNOVA*

      I would go and see what they have to say. If nothing else, it’s always good to practice interviewing.

    4. Steve G*

      I would go, only because our office used to be next to an event planning place (are you in NYC and the interview in on Park Ave South ?:-)) and their website looked 90s-ish, as did the pictures, but I know they were VERY successful from word of mouth and from all of their repeat events. I guess the fancy website wasn’t necessary to attract more business. Also, not sure how “diversity” makes a company a better place to work for you, you should care about working with the most qualified people for their jobs, but this place was all middle aged Jewish women. And it was very successful.

      As per the “Everyone is family” part though, that did seem to be true:-)

      1. Oatmeal*

        This isn’t an event planning place – it is a non-profit with a health based mission. The role is managing their fundraising events.

        Regarding diversity in the workplace: from past experience, I’ve found that when everyone in the workplace has similar backgrounds, they usually bring similar ideas. In this type of situation (especially for non-profits, which are mission-based and most especially for very small non-profits), it can create a weird bubble/feedback loop where everyone is reinforcing everyone else’s ideas without a view of external context. Community engagement is a huge part of this sector, and from experience it can be hard to engage communities when those communities do not see themselves reflected in the staff or programs of the organization.

        I also personally find it more rewarding and engaging to work with people who have different backgrounds than me, so that we can help to address each other’s blind spots (which most of the time we’re not even aware exist!) That is the environment I’m coming from, so I think be comparison this would seem…. dull.

        1. Steve G*

          Well I see you cancelled but that was one example of a company that looked not great from the outside but was doing really well

          As per “diversity” also keep in mind that it comes in all forms – people that grew up in cities vs. the country, or grew up in different parts of the country or grew up poor vs. rich etc. are all going to bring different views to the table

    5. Oatmeal*

      Update: I emailed the hiring manager and declined the interview. I felt an immediate sense of relief.

      1. jarofbluefire*

        Smart move. And you just freed them up to find the right fit to focus on, and didn’t waste their time, which is always a nice thing to do for people.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        That feeling of dread was where I changed my mind. I took a couple part time jobs that came with the feeling of dread. It never got better, mostly it got worse once I took the job. Smart move, I think.

  15. Lamington*

    I’m dissapointed I had several internal interviews and nothing :( all told me I’m great, good questions but no offers. After 4 years in the same place, I feel I need to move ob where I would be appreciated.

    1. voluptuousfire*

      I can’t offer advice but can offer commiseration. I posted about the same thing last week. Interviews don’t pan out into offers and when you do get feedback, it’s positive: you interview well, you present well, you really impressed me, I can pass your resume onto colleagues, etc.

      Ultimately it boils down to that one person who decides to give you a shot and hire you and trying to find that person is frankly, a PITA.

  16. Nerdling*

    I asked last week about baking and selling cakes on the side as an occasional thing, and someone suggested making sure of the legalities. Turns out my state has such restrictive cottage food laws that the only people who can cook at home and sell it are farmers. So I’m likely going to join a group to try to get the law changed – I see no reason why the only individuals able to benefit from this type of business are those who own a farm. It hugely limits working at home options for a lot of folks and is not based on health issues.

    1. KarenT*

      Oh, that’s interesting. It wouldn’t have occurred to me since so many people seem to do it. Are you sure it’s not for health issues? I would have guessed it’s because of health inspections and public health regulations.

      1. Nerdling*

        That would have been my assumption, too, but no. Farmers aren’t required to have health inspections – the Health Department may choose to come by, but it’s not required at all. You just have to have a separate pantry/fridge for those items.

      2. Anonsie*

        I remember reading about these restrictions maaany many years ago and IIRC, they are rather antiquated regulations. I want to say it had less to do with health restrictions than protecting specific business types, since as Nerdling notes the health oversight isn’t often present for the farms either.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I have heard talk here of sharing a commercial kitchen. A group of people chip in and buy or build a commercial kitchen. Then they get to use it to make their products. They can add members if scheduling permits. But the kitchen gets the inspections that are required by law and the owners/members get a commercial kitchen for their use. Membership dues cover the operating costs. I have yet to see this plan materialize. But the point is that there are others like you who would make use of a commercial kitchen if they had one.

  17. themmases*

    For a more fun question: how has stuff from your job helped you in the rest of your life? Are there any life skills you picked up specifically by working, or job-specific knowledge you can apply outside of work?

    1. Bostonian*

      Does using InDesign to lay out the program for my friends’ wedding count?

      More seriously, I absolutely hated making phone calls all the way through college and into my first job. Working an office job for a while got me comfortable enough that now it’s no big deal to call customer service, make appointments, and all those other things that would have totally stressed me out before.

      That first job was at a financial services firm, and I got a good handle on the basics of stocks, bonds, mutual funds, IRAs, etc. That’s been good to have.

      1. PecanSandies*

        I still haven’t gotten over my phone phobia, and in the retail jobs I had, I had to be on the damn phone all the time answering questions. Still hate the phone.

      2. Ann O'Nemity*

        Ha, my phone avoidance actually started after a telemarketing job. Before that, I loved talking on the phone and would do it for hours. Now, I loathe talking on the phone and dislike making even the simplest call – like ordering a pizza or scheduling a doctor’s appt.

      3. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        More seriously, I absolutely hated making phone calls all the way through college and into my first job. Working an office job for a while got me comfortable enough that now it’s no big deal to call customer service, make appointments, and all those other things that would have totally stressed me out before.

        THIS. Further down in the thread I posted about temping and getting stuck with just reception jobs. I neglected to mention the ironic part of all this: phones have actually caused me a lot of anxiety at times. I used to absolutely dread making phone calls. Answering phones I’m okay with, it’s just making the calls that’s a problem. I often put off making appointments. Sometimes I just stared at the phone and couldn’t dial. It took a lot of effort to psyche myself up to just do it. I like privacy when I make personal calls. Part of the reason I put off making appointments is because I needed to do it when I was alone. And some calls are easier to make than others. It depends on the context. I had to answer customer calls when I worked in retail too. I’ve been forced just to get used to it. I still don’t like phones and I never will but I’m a lot better off than I used to be.

    2. PecanSandies*

      I’m very good at trivia having worked at a bookstore. All those 30 minute lunches reading snippets of books.

    3. Rat Racer*

      I find myself constantly putting on my consulting hat because it’s helpful, even though the jargon is obnoxious. Kids are grumpy: what is the root cause of grumpiness? If it’s lack of sleep, let’s start testing some new workflows around an earlier bedtime. What’s the right framework for an allowance system? How can we reduce the error rate on grocery lists?

      This is silly, but in general, the degree to which I need to be articulate and precise in my work life has tremendous spillover into whatever else I’m doing.

    4. Oatmeal*

      Two general life skills my work has helped me with are:

      1) Socializing/small talk (I’m naturally a slightly anxious introvert, but now I am a total pro at talking to anyone about absolutely anything. Parties are a lot more fun now!)
      2) Being able to tell people directly and honestly exactly what I want and the reasons why.

      Oh, and also negotiation… when I was planning my wedding, I was so good at negotiating that it almost felt unfair to the vendors.

    5. fposte*

      Managing people (and reading AAM to do it) has taught me a ton about dealing with people in general. The place I seem to have found it most relevant is dealing with medical facilities; I have a better grasp of what people think they’re saying behind what they actually are saying and am much better at finding ways to collaborate to fix stuff.

      The book reviewing side means I’ve amassed a crap-ton of random information; I’m sure it’s been relevant at some point :-).

    6. Jerzy*

      Waitressing has by far provided me with the best life skill of knowing when to just keep that smile plastered on my face as I calmly tell rude people what they don’t want to hear. I use it all the time dealing with insurance companies, any kind of lousy customer service reps, and even in my personal relationships.

      If you can learn how to stay calm and focused while being yelled at by customers, your floor manager and the cook, and walk back out to your table with a smile on your face, you can handle most of what life throws your way. I highly recommend everyone do some time in a front-of-house position.

      1. MegEB*

        Waiting tables was absolutely invaluable for me. I learned so much about how to deal with difficult people and I use those skills regularly. I totally agree.

      2. Red*

        I’m not a waitress, but I handle payroll overpayments and all manner of wage garnishments at my workplace–it has helped me learn to keep my composure so, so much better than any other experiences I’ve had, especially with enraged, upset, and difficult people!

    7. CA Admin*

      I was a manager at a high-end pet supply store out of college. The amount I know about pet food, nutrition, and other products is something that’s helped both me and my extended family. Cat peeing outside the litter box? Dog licking its paws? Cat diagnosed with diabetes? These are all things I’ve been able to help out with.

    8. literateliz*

      I’m an editorial assistant (largely on cookbooks) and I’ve learned a TON about food, cooking, wine, whiskey, etc. It’s improved my cooking, and when I go out to a fancypants restaurant and there’s some mysterious ingredient on the menu I’m usually the one who knows what the heck it is!

    9. Natalie*

      Despite not being a law talking guy (RIP Lionel Hutz) I’v read a lot of leases and contracts at work, which came in handy when I was buying a house. I’m also used to dealing with contractors, which I imagine will come in handy in the future.

      I suspect that mentioning that I am also a landlord kept my residential landlords from trying to pull shit on me, but not proof.

    10. Calacademic*

      I can fix a lot more things now. I probably wouldn’t take on a car, but your basic handyman stuff I can take on. Benefits of being an experimentalist.

    11. brightstar*

      Work experience, particularly retail and customer service, made me a less sensitive person. I used to cry at the drop of a hat and now I just shrug a lot of things off.

      The most fun thing I’ve learned was working in a wine department, I learned a lot of about wine, whiskey, beer, and various liquors. It expanded my palate and taught me an appreciation of wine.

    12. Bea W*

      I work in clinical trials, largely dealing with the data end but I also have quite a bit of experience on the clinical site monitoring end I picked up along the way.

      Recently I switched doctors. I handed her a pile of well organized medical records. She was ecstatic. :)

      My work skills also help me a lot with my personal genealogy research. They are two entirely different fields, but all that troubleshooting, data mining, and documentation I have to do at work really translates well to deep diving into ancestry. Working with a family tree is not unlike working with relational databases.

    13. MegEB*

      I used to work as a patient coordinator in an oncology clinic, which meant I was spending the majority of my days on the phone with highly stressed out people. Now I am a) really good at handling stressed people, and b) great on the phone. Gone is my fear of ever actually calling someone. I currently work as an admin, and I find myself using my organizational skills to help my friends and family plan outings and events all the time, especially with my mother. I love her dearly, but she is one of the flakiest, spaciest people I know, so it usually falls on me to make things happen (even simple things like dinner reservations).

    14. Z*

      I have picked up a ton of Excel skills at my job over the past few years, which have come in handy planning my wedding. It’s great- I have all these formulas set up that track how many invites we need, who’s coming, etc.

      1. Cath in Canada*

        I showed my husband some very basic Excel tools I’d set up to track our mortgage and a recent non-work project, and now he thinks I’m a wizard (he’s never needed to use Excel, or indeed any programme other than email or internet)

      2. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        I like playing around with Excel and I’ve actually done more with it for my own use than I have in any job. It’s a good way to learn though. Hopefully some day I’ll be able to take all the stuff I’ve figured out on my own and actually use it for work.

        I like using conditional formatting whenever possible, even that involves a somewhat complex formula and when doing things manually would be simpler. If I have some complicated formula and it spits out an answer that doesn’t make sense, I’ll pick it apart and basically go about fixing it the same way I’d debug a program. I enjoy the challenge and the satisfaction of solving a problem.

        When I was job searching, I was tracking jobs in a spreadsheet and I found some way to format it so that once I logged that I had applied for a job, it would automatically go to the top section of the table. I’ve used tables and pivot tables and formulas to compare flight options. I track my cell phone use because right now it’s cheaper to stay on a prepaid service and I’d like it to be clear if that ever changes.

        Yeah, I’m a nerd. I know.

    15. Victoria, Please*

      Excellent question. Years of college teaching means I now have zero stage fright in any situation.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      I worked in a nursery for almost a decade, that gave me a good basic education for understanding more and more about plant health and, in turn, human health because this is our environment and our food.

      But I think my richest experience has been from the wide variety of people I have met and worked with. Things that I used to think were odd/wrong/unusual, I came to realize that a lot of those things are simply human nature. My own thinking lightened up, I learned to be a little less hard on myself and skip to the part of fixing the problem, rather than waste time scolding myself. In as much as we are different one to the other, there are many ways we have similar feelings/thoughts/hopes. And my big surprise was that people can be amazingly transparent, even when they don’t want to be.

    17. Red*

      I’m awesome at budgeting, bank statement reconciliations, evaluating investment options, and filing individual tax returns now thanks to my professional training, haha. I’ve become much more confident about the little incidental day to day interactions with clerks and others during my errands. Better phone manners, too. I’m a recluse by nature, so all the phone and face-to-face support I have to provide for my day job has helped me improve my social skills and my overall confidence by leaps and bounds. I’ve also gotten a bit better at controlling my intense resting … mean face.

    18. Shannon*

      Before I started working, I was always very optimistically independent and brash. I picked up a lot of communication skills and appreciate the value of working with a group. I also understand politics, now. Not governmental politics, but, organizational politics.

    19. TootsNYC*

      I use my editing skills to edit other people’s resumes.

      And I used the InDesign/page layout skills to make a booklet of cocktail recipes for my daughter’s 21st-b’day present. But I apparently left my proofreading skills in the office, because I didn’t realize that I hadn’t successfully updated the picture on my template, and a whole bunch of them have the same placeholder photo instead of the real one.

    20. Honeybee*

      I’m a researcher that runs experiments and surveys and does statistical analysis as part of my job. My focus until recently was on health-related research.

      It’s helped in a lot of areas. Probably the biggest is spotting the flaws in science writing articles in newspapers. Another is realizing the omitted information in sales pitches and polls and such (e.g., someone will compare groups with a 51% and 53% success rate and I’ll mention that the difference may not be statistically significant or isn’t practically large enough to make a difference; or someone will cherry-pick statistics and I know enough about it to highlight what they left out and why it weakens their case). I also use it a lot to analyze marketing campaigns, which I really love, lol.

      1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        Yeah, that’s kind of like me. When I see articles that list figures like that, sometimes I’ll start thinking about any obvious things that would explain those numbers.

        One in particular that stuck in mind was about the richest group of people being men their 50s or something. The article pointed out there were fewer rich men in their 60s. Well, my first thought was that by that age, there are probably more who have gotten divorced and had to split some of that wealth.

        Most annoying thing I ever saw in an article was a pie chart showing percentages of a group of people that fell into various categories which were NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!! The percents added up to about 200 or so. I saw this quarter of a pie that said 55% and had a good WTF moment and then I saw what the hell they were doing. *FACEPALM* That totally defeats the purpose of using a visual to display the data. I should have written to the editor and complained about that one.

    21. ScarletInTheLibrary*

      Archivist here. Among the skills I have applied in my real life – evaluating where information comes from, coming up with new techniques to do a specific task, learning more about what government entity handles a specific service, discovering weird trivia answers, and finding my way around slightly unfamiliar cities. Generally the latter is due to the path I want to take is closed or their is a major wreck, but my processing or providing reference on collections has introducing myself to alternative routes.

    22. asteramella*

      I currently work in health insurance. I learned that in the U.S. you must always, always dispute any medical bill because about 90% of them contain errors or overcharges. I now also know a lot more about deductibles, etc. and have helped lots of friends who didn’t realize how many services they are now entitled to receive for free because of the Affordable Care Act insurance reforms.

  18. Rye-Ann*

    Good news – I got an interview for Monday. Yay! Sounds like a decent position, too.

    I have a question about something they said though. I was informed that whoever gets this position will have to go to New Jersey for 3 weeks for training. (For reference, the actual job is in Maine, near where I live. It’s basically 7ish hours away by car or a 1.5 hour flight to a nearby city.) She mentioned that the “company will take care of it” or something like that but I’m not sure what that means. I guess what I want to know is this: what should I expect them to pay for, and what should I expect to have to pay for myself, should I find myself getting this job and going to that training? According to people I know, I should probably expect them to pay for everything (though I’m thinking I will probably be expected to buy my own food) – fight/transportation, hotel, a rental car* if relevant. Is this right?

    I know that just because I have an interview it doesn’t mean I’ll get the job. I just wanted to be informed ahead of time, in case it does come up. If I do get the position, it will be soon, because the training starts September 13.

    *I really hope I won’t need a rental car, or that they’ll take care of it if I do. I have been informed that renting a car requires a credit card, which I do not have.

    1. Jennifer*

      Most of the time I’ve heard that you will have to pay for a lot of things yourself and then get reimbursed…and it could be for ANY or all of that stuff. It probably depends on your company, though.
      I was up for a job that would require travel too and I was going to have that problem as well if I got it. I have a credit card but I don’t have a high enough limit to pay for a rental car and hotel.

    2. KT*

      The company will likely cover all travel, including meals.

      HOWEVER, you will probably need to have a credit card. In many companies (not all), you’ll pay for things and get reimbursed later, rather than being issued a company card. It depends on the company size and your individual role.

      1. Rye-Ann*

        Hmm…they are a pretty large company. I’m not sure exactly what aspects of the role it would depend on, but it’s definitely NOT a manager position, if that’s what you mean.

        I’ve never looked into getting a credit card, but I was sort of hoping to get a job before getting one. At the very least, I don’t know if there would be enough time between an offer and needing a card to actually get one. If it really does need to be a credit card (and not a debit card), I might be SOL. Hmm.

        1. Ad Astra*

          In most situations, a debit card will work just fine if you have enough money in your account to cover it. The benefit to using a credit card is that you don’t have to have the money available right then, and if your company handles reimbursement quickly enough, your personal finances would never be affected by work-related charges. Plus you can earn points or miles, and build your credit history.

          In the case of a 3-week training course, I would expect the company to pay for at least the hotel room upfront, but it will definitely vary by company.

        2. manomanon*

          You can definitely rent a car through enterprise with just a debit card and I pay for hotels all the time on my debit card as well. You may be surprised by how they do expenses- in my 15 person office we all have company cards but my mom’s big university employer has a one per department policy. Also at a minimum they should be able to book the travel stuff ahead of time on the corporate card or by using a purchase order

        3. Colette*

          If it’s a large company, they may supply you with a card. If you explain you don’t have a credit card, they may also be able to do a cash advance or have someone else pay.

        4. Another HRPro*

          If it is a large company, they will most likely provide you with a company credit card. However, you typically are responsible for this card and will be reimbursed for your expenses. Generally most major companies will pay for all travel related expenses (air, ground, hotel, etc.) as well as some food costs while you are away. They generally don’t pay for any personal entertainment.

        5. Amtelope*

          A debit card should work, but both the hotel and the rental card company may hold a deposit on your card if you use a debit card instead of a credit card. Even if the hotel is being direct-billed to the company, they’ll still require a credit card for incidentals (i.e., in case you run up room service bills or trash the room and your employer won’t pay.) If you use a debit card, they’ll usually pre-authorize a certain amount of money as a deposit, and you won’t be able to use that money until they release the hold.

    3. AnotherFed*

      They would probably also pay for food, or at least reimburse you up to a certain amount, but flights, hotels, and transportation are definitely the things a normal company would pay for.

      You might want to keep an eye out for a credit card you are willing/able to sign up for if you get the job, though – many companies would rather reimburse you for expenses after you have receipts, and you might not be set up with a company card in advance if the timing is tight.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      They should cover everything: flights, cab to and from airports, hotel, meals, etc. The only things they shouldn’t cover are entertainment, alcohol, and so on.

    5. Ama*

      Depending on where it is in New Jersey, you may be able to get around on mass transit and cabs.

      If the training is a regular part of the business, they probably have a regular procedure for handling those costs — especially as even if they will eventually give you a company credit card, a lot of times those take a few weeks to set up. I wouldn’t worry about it until they actually make you an offer.

      1. Rye-Ann*

        I don’t want to give too many details away, but it’s close to Philedelphia, if that helps.

        Anyway, you’re right, I probably am getting ahead of myself here. :P I just wanted to know what I should expect from them, in case they say, “You’re on your own for the hotel,” or something like that – whether that would be a perfectly normal expectation or if they would be taking advantage of me (I am pretty new to the working world).

        1. Meg Murry*

          Totally not normal for them to expect you to pay for the hotel. You might have a standard limit for meals each day though, and be expected to pay if your cost is above and beyond that. You might also be expected to put it on your own card and expense it, as mentioned above. The company probably would not cover other things that you might need in your personal life in order to make that trip – for instance, the cost of a pet sitter at home, or laundry if you wind up having to go to a laundromat during the trip.

          I agree this is getting ahead of yourself, and probably the kind of thing you would want to hammer out once you got the offer but before you actually accept it.

          My other question would be: would you be expected to stay in NJ for the whole 3 weeks? Or would they allow (and pay for) you to fly back on weekends or give you mileage and time (leave Friday afternoon, be back by Monday mid-day, for instance) to go home? Or is it “go to NJ on 9/13, come back home 10/4”?

          1. Meg Murry*

            For more clarification, most companies pay for:
            -Travel to/from the site. Either airfare + cabs, or rental car + gas, or mileage on your personal vehicle (note: if you get mileage on a personal vehicle, you don’t turn in gas receipts – that is on you, and is part of the mileage). Tolls, if applicable (ask for receipts!)
            -Travel while at the site: either a rental car, or paying for cabs or public transit so you can get to/from your hotel to the training location, and for reasonable things like going to dinner somewhere nearby.
            -A typical hotel room, like a room with a single queen bed.
            -Meals (often with a maximum amount for breakfasts, lunches and dinners). Many companies do NOT pay for alcohol though.
            -Either for parking at the airport while your car is there or for a cab to take you to/from the airport

            Usually not covered:
            -Dry cleaning, room service, runs to CVS when you forgot your shampoo, pay-per-view or anything extra at the hotel, entertainment like cover charges or going out to the movies

            Tip: you have to turn in itemized receipts for everything. That means when you go to a restaurant, you need to bring home your receipt that lists out all the items you ordered, AND you need customer copy credit card slip with how much you tipped. Many people on their first business trip lose out on a lot of money for reimbursements because they don’t get itemized receipts or don’t know to turn them in or lose them.

            1. BRR*

              This list is what I was going to write.

              Take particular notice of the meal amount. It might seem like a lot but when you’re eating out every meal your money doesn’t go as far.

            2. Rye-Ann*

              Seeing it in list form like this is perfect – thanks! This is exactly what I wanted to know! And yeah, I may not get this job, so I am probably way ahead of myself, but it still could be good to know for whatever job I do get.

        2. CJ*

          Pretty standard it seems, however, I would also expect them to at least pay for the hotel up-front. A lot of companies have contracts with hotels to allow them to be invoiced directly, too.

          Also, I don’t want to make any assumptions, but even if you decide get a credit card, the limit may not be high enough to cover all of this. If that might be the case, Alison has a couple of great posts on how to approach HR/Accounting about this situation:
          https://www.askamanager.org/2013/06/can-my-company-require-me-to-put-business-travel-on-my-own-credit-card.html
          https://www.askamanager.org/2012/02/ask-the-readers-cant-afford-my-jobs-required-travel.html

        3. Amtelope*

          They should cover the hotel, your flight, cabs, meals that aren’t provided at the training site, a rental car if they decide you need one (that’s their call — often you won’t need a car, or several people will share a rental car), and any parking, tolls, or bag check fees involved. Hotel and flight are usually paid by the company up front, meals and smaller things like parking you pay and they reimburse. (Unless you’re issued a company credit card, in which case you can charge all those things on the card.)

          For meals, there may be a limit on how much they’ll pay for; they may either require you to turn in meal receipts and reimburse you the exact amount you spent, or just pay you a certain amount per day to cover your meals (in which case you can save a bit by being thrifty about where you eat.) Alcohol often isn’t reimbursed, although that varies by company culture.

    7. another IT manager*

      Everyone else has covered it, but: if you can’t cover the cost of transportation/hotel, ask your manager (if you get to that point). I had a trip this spring where I was expected to cover the hotel and expense it (which is standard at my company). Except that I don’t have a credit card, and didn’t have the $1400 it would have put on my debit card. I talked to my boss, and he basically said, yeah, don’t worry, I’ll put it on my (company) card when I get in (he was going to the same thing).

    8. once a lurker*

      Others in this thread have covered what you can expect the employer to pay for and reimburse you for. The one thing nobody’s mentioned is that some employers will give you a travel advance, so even though you’re paying the restaurants, you’re using money they’ve already given you. Good luck with the interview!

    9. TootsNYC*

      Depending where the training is in NJ, you may be able to get there via public transportation.

      They may also pay the hotel bill directly; especially if you can arrange things well in advance, that’s a possibility.

      And if she said “the company will take care of it,” I would bet she means they pay all the expenses of the trip. It would majorly amaze me if they didn’t.

  19. AnotherFed*

    The witch discussion earlier this week reminded me – what’d be your creative go-to curse (witch variety, not swear words) for coworkers, bosses, and/or clients?

    I’ve been doing lots of budget and planning stuff this week, which are among my absolute least favorite tasks, so I’m about ready to curse my PM to have Alvin and the Chipmunks singing The Song That Never Ends for as long as he has either Excel or Project open.

    2. Mrs. Audi*

      How hard is it to get into consulting at one of the big firms like BCG or Bain as a career-changer? I’m 4 years post-undergrad degree and have been working as a data analyst for the past 2 years. I have no business background. Thank you!

        1. Lily in NYC*

          Hi Audi, I know this was not where you meant to post but I can tell you that those places are extremely competitive. Are you sure this is what you want? I work in a dept. that only hires from the big consulting firms and I find many of their personalities to be “difficult” at best. And the work is a grind – constant travel, long hours, and you can be fired very easily for not producing. Some firms are better than others – if I had to work for a consulting firm I’d stay away from McKinsey, BCG, and especially Bain. I might consider Oliver Wyman or a smaller niche firm. And be warned, many of them have elitist hiring practices and rarely hire outside of the ivy league (my best friend is a recruiter for Mckinsey and talking to her is eye-opening and disappointing).

            1. Another HRPro*

              They are very competitive to get into and very tough environments. Most that go and work for them view it as a launch board to do something else. Many good companies hires alumni from these firms so working at them does give your resume some weight. But, if you want to actually do consulting as a career, I wouldn’t recommend them.

            2. Honeybee*

              To add to that, most of the people who go into those positions plan to only be there for 2-3 years as a springboard to something else. It’s churn and burn – they burn their junior consultants out very quickly.

              But yeah, from what I hear it’s pretty difficult to get in as an experienced candidate. Most of the people I know who work(ed) there graduated from target schools – elite universities.

      1. AnotherFed*

        I don’t know, but karma just got me – someone was humming it in the bathroom and now it’s trying very hard to get stuck in my head, too.

    4. Emmie*

      None really, but lighting your nose hairs on fire the next time you grill might be entertaining. I instead just tell that to friends when I get irritated with my friends! :)

    5. Lily in NYC*

      Instarrhea! It’s something I made up called “instant diarrhea”. It’s more of a super-power than a curse and would allow me to be able to use my mind to cause someone who makes me mad to have instant diarrhea in their pants. Fantasizing about it is the only way I keep sane on my horrendous subway commute.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          It’s all in the timing…believe me, I have thought this through to an embarrassing degree.

    8. EvilQueenRegina*

      When I was still at Exjob I used to imagine casting some kind of compulsion spell on Cruella, my bitch eating crackers, so she’d think she wanted to leave and someone capable of doing the job would replace her. Now I have left, I think Voldemort may have done that job for me with my replacements because a LOT of people are deciding to quit that place.

      There’s a job at my place that used to have that problem but Neal has now been in that role since January and looks like he may actually stick out his year long contract.

    10. EvilQueenRegina*

      Oh I think I must have missed this due to being away, which thread was the original witch discussion on?

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I worked with someone who used to like to picture me choking the obnoxious person. Well, I was right near by, so it was handy to picture me doing this.

      My go to is: “Darwin was WRONG!”

      1. AnotherFed*

        HA! This almost made me spray the monitor. I think the Darwin comment is getting even more entertaining – we’ve got a Darwin in the office (his first name is Darwin), so maybe it’s becoming a normal name. Even if it isn’t widespread, we have waaaaaaay too much fun with Darwin cracks.

    13. honoria*

      “May you be trapped on a desert island with Merv Griffin and no dictionary”
      (not mine, and I have long forgotten the source)

  20. Ragnelle*

    Hi, everyone. I’ve had somewhat of a stressful week. We’ve started a big creative project at work. It seems like every time we do one, the workplace turns into drama-central. Everyone ends up hating each other, there are multiple very tense meetings, people threaten to rage-quit left and right, and everyone loses the ability to communicate professionally. Thankfully, the project itself usually turns out well and no one from the outside can see the problems, but then we are so burnt out that it takes us far too long to attempt another project.

    The problem seems to stem from a couple of directions. A lot of people want to have a say in the final direction of the project—the old “too many cooks” thing. Also, a couple of the people involved have somewhat toxic personalities, at least when it comes to creative stuff. Meanwhile, I’m trying to coordinate the project and keep the peace so we get it done by our deadline, and I’m about ready to pull out my hair. Yesterday, one of the key people got angry during a meeting about the director and others nixing a part of the project he was particularly excited about. He threatened to drop the project entirely. These projects are highly visible, so failure or a sub-par product is not an option, and he is very talented. So I went to lunch with him and listened to him make nasty comments about pretty muchly everyone we work with until his ego felt soothed enough he could continue working on the project. And just this morning, he walked into my office an announced that the work we did yesterday was unusable and that we’ll have to redo it all again. Ugh.

    Has anyone else ever faced this problem at work? How do you deal with it? Any advice for my situation? Do I just need to grit me teeth and bear it until it’s over?

    1. AVP*

      This sounds pretty toxic, but as the coordinator, the best thing you can do is to just keep is together, stay out of the drama as much as possible, and keep the whole thing moving forward. In my business people usually use the swan analogy – kicking like crazy under the water, appearing calm and unperturbed on the surface. Take time to breathe alone, realize it will eventually end and that in any creative endeavor, not everyone is going to end up happy.

      It would be better if there was one clear “director / decision-maker” because then you can sort of defer to them for the final sign-off on everything, and then people have a specific place to vent their anger toward if it ends up being different from their vision or if the final product isn’t good. I know I get a lot of mileage out of the line, “well, I know this isn’t exactly what you signed up to do, but this is what the director wants, so….” Sometimes people just want to feel heard and acknowledged.

    2. Beti*

      If so, first I’d say put your foot down about the personal comments. No matter how talented a person is, snotty behavior isn’t appropriate and isn’t helpful. “I’m happy to talk about the process and/or your ideas but I’m don’t want to hear disparaging comments about other staff.”

      Also, before you start the next project, can you get everyone together to address the *process*? It’s clear most people aren’t happy about the way things progress, so maybe get them involved in solving it. I’d also suggest a neutral third party to come in a mediate. Someone who can redirect when people get huffy and want to flounce out. It sounds like there are too many Type As and everyone wants to be in charge. Can you rotate who are the leads so everyone knows they’ll get a chance to show their skills/ideas?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      My advice is that this is a toxic work place that could pull your health down, leaving might not be a bad idea.

      But basically, you will continue to go through this because it’s allowed. People are holding the company hostage by withholding work in order to get their way. Everyone can be replaced.
      You are dealing with a pack of very tall five year olds. Sane companies would deal with threats of quitting by saying, “there’s the door, see ya.”

      You can try talking to the big boss, but if you do not see changes in a pre-determined time frame, then for your own health make plans to get out. Probably not an answer you wanted to hear. But I would be very surprised if anything changed there. They have been doing this for a while and they will probably continue to do this.

    4. NicoleK*

      The key guy….is this typical behavior for him? Making nasty comments about others and threatening to stop work on the project. If not, then it’s perhaps a sign of how deeply frustrated he has become. Sounds like your work place is a bit dysfunctional and you may just have to grit your teeth and bear it.

  21. Not Karen*

    Anybody have suggestions for how to come up with goals on a performance review when you’re not really passionate about your career?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      In my job, we have to come up with professional development type goals and more direct on-the-job goals. If you weren’t really passionate, I’d focus on the on-the-job goals and look at improving processes to streamline your work (less time spent on work, the better if you don’t love it, right?). If you focus on professional dev goals, see if you can find a nugget in one part of your job that you like more than the rest and set a goal to build on that.

    2. Jennifer*

      “I’d like to take X, Y, and Z classes” is usually what I put down. That’s assuming that is an option at your work.

    3. Kyrielle*

      At $PreviousJob I came up with goals like “Assuming business needs allow, I will work more in X and Y subsystems to improve my knowledge of Z.”

      a) Business needs never allow.

      b) Z is a nicely marketable skill that would be handy if I were job searching in the future.

      (Here, I will probably have goals that I pick to actually improve my performance here, because I’m still learning lots of things.)

      1. TootsNYC*

        even if they’re small? For one thing, if they’re smallish, they’re probably more achievable.

    5. fposte*

      Similar to the classes–are there skills you could learn that would make you more marketable elsewhere as well as more valuable there?

    6. Hlyssande*

      This is so hard for me every year. I’ve been here for 10 years and have never been passionate about it at all and I hate the industry, but it’s a comfortable rut that pays fairly and has great benefits.

      I still don’t know what I want to do with my life. :(

    8. Kirsten*

      Can you shadow / become more involved in learning something from another department? Expanding your skill set is always good for when you’re looking for a new job.

  22. Golden Yeti*

    :Rant:

    So, in casual communications with a former coworker friend this week, we were talking about wages at my current position. The argument management always puts forth to prospective hires (and I know because I can hear it from my office) is that in the industry we are in, the company cannot afford to pay higher rates like in other, more obviously lucrative industries.

    This old coworker said, “Well that’s bunk, because when I was working there I was making $X/hr.” The number she mentioned was $10/hr more than me, and one of the numbers usually mentioned as being too high in said management spiel. The coworker did a great job while she was here (at least I thought), but she wasn’t here even a year. I’m going on 5. And, when we don’t have someone “designated” filling that position, it’s my job to do several of its duties, along with my own. In fact, when she left, I had to take on a few projects she had been working on. Plus, I have heard my manager bragging to third parties about how good I am at this work, and how I’m doing it all even though it’s not my job.

    Talk is cheap. And apparently, my management is even more hypocritical than I thought. It is way past time to get out of here.

    :End Rant:

    1. Anie*

      That suuuuucks. I’m be steaming. There is the possibility that, after paying her that salary, they realized that was way out of their budget and should never happen again? But I always err on the side of company’s being not cool about pay.

      I mean, I’ve worked at my current place for 2 years without a raise, ever. And when the director, my boss, left, I did her position AND mine for 3+ months. They saved money on her salary so I know they could’ve bumped me up or given me a bonus or something. But nope. Nadda.

    2. 22dncr*

      And that was the universe giving you a kick in the pants to get moving! Happens to me all the time. When I’ve finally decided I need to leave I tell the universe to chill – I KNOW I need to leave and I DON’T need the universe putting it’s 2 cents in (;

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Right on. Sometimes we start to convince ourselves that we are comfy and a bit of reality comes dancing into the room.

    3. InterviewFreeZone*

      This happened to me. I was training and sharing an office with 2 coworkers of the same title and experience level that were getting paid 25k more than me. I was there 5 years and had been promoted into the role. They came in from outside and I guess did a great job negotiating. It’s a frustrating situation. I constantly heard “we don’t have the budget” to move my salary to market, so I just left.

  23. Malissa*

    Yesterday was really interesting. I got called for an interview and agreed to it before they would tell me the company. Had I known that up front I wouldn’t have gone. Possibly the only company I know that’s a definite wild card to work for. And their reputation is horrible.
    On the way to that interview I got called for an interview for a position I really want. They originally said it was this morning and wanted a 10 minute power point presentation. “That’s awfully quick” I said but agreed anyway because this position in more in line with my long term goals. They called back 10 minutes later and the interview isn’t until Monday. Whew! So I get to prepare this slide show on team building strategies, positive work culture, and how all of this relates to the position while relaxing on the beach this weekend. Hopefully that will provide as much inspiration as the patio where that intern wanted to work.
    Seems like everybody is in a hurry to hire.

  24. Dice-K*

    I know that federal government job applications have been discussed here before, but I wanted some clarification. I recently applied for 3 federal government positions via USAJobs that I know I would be an excellent candidate for, but I got rejected as “Not Qualified” for two of them and “Not Rated” for the third. I thought I had done a good job of tailoring my resume, but apparently I needed to go further. So I would really love some advice on the best way to approach a USAJobs application.

    –Should I literally repeat most of the phrases in the vacancy announcement in my resume? (Is that not plagiarism in some form?)
    –Do I have any hope of landing a government position if I am not already completing the exact work for the position? It seems like you need to have already done the job to get the job.
    –Should I apply at a GS-level that I know I am overqualified for, just to get in?

    Note – these positions had multiple vacancies and were open for more than two weeks, so I am pretty sure they were not targeted specifically at internal candidates.

    1. NickD*

      Oh, I’m very very happy to see this because I was going to ask a similar question. I’m finishing up an application this weekend and am looking for any advice that folks can offer. I’ve only got one that I’m applying for right now but it is a step to a dream job.

    2. GS*

      I’m in the middle of the USAJobs grind as well, though I’ve been hired in the past. In my experience, you need to be very explicit in how your prior experience matches up with the requirements, even if the jobs were different. So, if they say you need 1 year analyzing spreadsheets, you should be using the same language in your resume for every job in which you analyzed spreadsheets. (That’s really not plagiarism if you really did that work.) Make it crystal clear that you meet each and every minimum requirement no matter how small in order to get rated qualified. In my experience, you don’t need to necessarily have done the exact same job, but you need to explain very clearly how your different background fits the description. So, if they’re looking for a spreadsheet analyst, and you were an executive assistant who happened to work in spreadsheets often, you need to very clearly state that you meet the requirement because as an AA you analyzed spreadsheets Also, if this is one of those jobs that has you fill out a questionnaire about your experience, reuse their language with the dates, title, company, etc. For example:
      Q1. Do you have more than one year of experience analyzing spreadsheet data for accuracy?
      Answer: Yes. I spent more than 2 years at ABC, Inc. (June 2001-August 2003) as an Administrative Assistant to the CFO where I actively analyzed both financial and non-financial spreadsheet data for accuracy.

      Don’t feel too bad about the Not Rated one. I’m pretty sure that just means they hit an internal applicant cap and stopped evaluating anyone else. Happens to me all the time. Sigh. USAJobs can be quite the grind, good luck!

      1. NickD*

        What do you think about how many of their programs you need to have good experience with? They have Major Program A (MPA) and Major Program B (MPB) listed, both of which my current position of five years covers. They also list SubProgramB1 and B2 however and neither of these are a part of my job in more than a brief review. My experience with MPA and MPB gives me a skillset that what they are asking to have done with SPB1 and B2 would not be a problem, but I’d have to spend some time reading those regs. Which, if I get past the screening process, I will do. How should I address those?

        1. GS*

          I’m by no means an expert on USAJobs, but I think it really depends on whether they’re listing the programs as part of the qualifications (as AnotherFed’s awesome advice states: the 3-7 items at the end) or just explaining the work you’d be doing. I’d focus on the skills shared by your knowledge of the current ones and of your ability to research regulatory rules.

    3. AnotherFed*

      It sounds like you aren’t making the HR certification for the positions. This could be happening for either of two reasons: 1) the questions kind of sucked and/or HR didn’t know enough to properly screen applications against the criteria or 2) you didn’t have enough points to make the certification.

      If you really suspect it is situation #1, and you know someone in the organization or involved in hiring for the position, give them a call and tell them what happened. The hiring managers usually have the authority to do some level of re-examining of the cert to make sure it’s done right, especially if they can point to qualified candidates who did not make it through and bad candidates who did. Telling them you applied but didn’t make it can help them identify that the cert is bad. If it’s too messed up, sometimes they have to repost the position, so this may take a long time to fix (but keep your eye out for the positions to be reposted – it could happen).

      If it’s more likely to be #2, and to improve your chances of making it through even if it’s situation #1, you need to look hard at the piece of the job posting that list criteria that you will be evaluated against (usually a list of 3-7 items). They don’t tell you what the weighting is, but make sure your application materials very clearly point out your experience and achievements related to those things. In the questions about your ability/experience doing various things related to the job, you probably will not qualify unless you rate yourself at least D (do it without supervision) for most or all of the questions. You can also use the free text boxes to explain how your previous work experience is related – I don’t think that’s a mandatory field, but it’s certainly helpful and the interviewers (past HR) will read it.

      You do have a chance to land a position doing different work from your current job, but you have to clearly explain why your experience is relevant and what skills and abilities you have. I would not recommend applying too low level just to get in if the position is on the GS scale. GS scale pay increases are based primarily on time, so working their 5 years at a satisfactory or above level will get you more pay than 4 years of superstar performance, and the only way to move up quickly would be to apply for another position (assuming you’re looking to move up to the 12/13/14/15 level).

  25. LBK*

    With the whole Jared Fogle ordeal blowing up, I’ve seen a lot of people condemning Subway for not more thoroughly vetting their spokesperson. I personally find that kind of ridiculous – this was obviously so well hidden that it took years of him being in the public eye before enough scrutiny was given to reveal what was happening. I don’t think there’s anything they could’ve done to uncover this beforehand. But it just makes me generally curious how much everyone thinks it reflects on a company to hire someone who later turns out to have committed a serious crime.

    1. KT*

      Well, the informant said she had info for over ten years and kept reporting it without getting results…so SOMEONE knew and didn’t take action.

      He also spent a lot of time in Thailand, etc by himself for sex tourism trips…I feel like a company should know that’s a red flag

      1. LBK*

        Oh, I missed that – was this an informant at the company and/or someone reporting it to the company? Or to the authorities?

        1. AnotherAlison*

          She was a local news reporter who reported it to the FBI & the FBI investigated. Not clear if anyone reported anything to Subway.

          1. LBK*

            Interesting. I’m still not 100% sure I’d blame Subway for not doing anything, especially if the authorities were already involved and no charges had been levied yet – they certainly aren’t going to be able to investigate any better than the FBI would, and it would feel like jumping the gun to me to drop him just based on allegations.

            1. AnotherAlison*

              We can agree to disagree, but to me, it feels like prioritizing profits is what would lead you to “not jump the gun” and suspend his contract while the FBI investigates. I suppose the FBI is wrong sometimes, but if your company CFO was being investigated, would you let him continue being CFO?

              (I don’t know if Subway *knew* the FBI was investigating or not. I’m sure we’ll still eat there sometimes. It’s not the individual franchisees’ fault, for sure, unless it comes out that they were helping him with his “needs” but so far I haven’t heard anything like that.)

              1. LBK*

                For a company that large and a spokesperson so recognizable, I feel that even a suspension would bring too much negative attention so that if it turned out he was innocent after all, it would still permanently tarnish his and the company’s reputation. Particularly with sexual crimes, it’s extremely hard to come back from accusations even if they’re proven or ruled false.

                I know innocent until proven guilty is a legal principle, not a social one, but I still think it’s valuable to maintain as a mental tenet. Admittedly, it seems in almost every case it turns out that the accusations are true (I certainly wasn’t defending Bill Cosby before he confessed) so I can understand that it seems like a waste of time to suspend judgment. But I’d think if you were in that position you wouldn’t want people assuming you were guilty before any investigation had even been done.

                (On a side note, I’ve been watching the show Rectify lately, which does an absolutely amazing exploration of this subject. Perhaps that’s why it’s on my mind and what’s shaping my thinking here.)

                1. AnotherAlison*

                  My line of thinking is someone had to overhear something. Whether you knew the full extent of his actions, if you overheard some of the things the reports say he’s said, fire him for that! You don’t have to say anything to the public about the firing, just stop using him and have new ads. When asked, just say it was time to go a new direction. (It would depend what any Subway employees hypothetically overheard on whether they should report him).

                  I mean, the guy is visiting restaurants where 16 y.o. girls are working, independent of his work with kids through his foundation. If an adult employee regularly made inappropriate comments about LEGAL age employees, I would want him gone.

                  I wouldn’t want to destroy the guy’s life for no reason and mere suspicion, but I think it will come out that tons of people had heard him say inappropriate comments. Not the hard evidence to convict him of a crime, but enough that you don’t want him as the face of your business. (I could be totally wrong, but I sadly know a few people who have lived double lives and someone always knew all along.)

                2. LBK*

                  I guess I still feel icky about making any kind of decisions about someone’s livelihood based on hearsay and rumors – I’d actually be more willing to go along with doing it just based on formal charges being levied, but doing it based on things you’ve overheard and reports that have been made, with literally zero evidence beyond those accusations? That’s a little scary to me, unless it’s like Cosby’s case where there were a TON of accusations that all followed a very similar thread/story, so it either had to be true or a very bizarre coincidence/conspiracy.

                  Like I said, almost all of these stories do end up being true, and like you said it usually does turn up that there was someone who knew all along. But I think using that as your frame of reference really screws over the 1% of times where it’s not true and innocent people have their reputations and lives irreparably damaged because it’s almost impossible to turn the tide of accusations like that. A portion of people will always still think you did it, and it can take years to get back everything you lost during the time where everyone else believed you did it.

            2. catsAreCool*

              When the FBI is investigating someone for this type of thing, I wouldn’t want the person as a spokesperson. I might not drop the person without proof, but I wouldn’t be putting the person on the TV screen.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          One manager had him banned from her store. “Him” meaning any promotional materials with his picture on them. Corporate let her do that, too. That tells me right there that they knew something was wrong- they caved and there had to be a reason why.

      2. AnotherAlison*

        Exactly! (I already typed a response once, but my browser crashed, so I’ll just piggyback on what you’ve already said.)

        IMO, someone knew. It’s kind of like Jerry Sandusky. People knew. We will find out that Subway people knew.

        I’m surprised how many people have zero intuition for this. It’s easy to say now, wow, yeah, Jared’s a creepy guy, but I can generally spot the creepy ones (I have a great example that happened this week, but I don’t want to hijack this talk). Sure, but If I’m a national sandwich franchise and this guy seems off, I might dig around a little.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          (Should say “Sure, not every creepy guy does this, but if”. . .)

          I have sadly known a few people who had similar legal issues.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          But there are also probably people out there doing awful things and they’re not setting off your creep radar. It’s confirmation bias from the ones who do.

          1. AnotherAlison*

            Oh, I’m sure there are. I will say I’m quite a pessimistic person and tend to assume the worst, so it is easy to say “I knew it all along” when you assume everyone has a dark side. I really am bad. I google everyone.

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      I only hold a company accountable like that if it’s apparent they were willfully ignorant of ongoing suspicions, but that doesn’t seen to be the case here.

      I think people might be hitting Subway harder because Jared wasn’t just the guy you see in commercials, he was paid to go talk to students and be the face of public health campaigns. I think somehow this makes it worse for people. I can’t see the same backlash if it were the “Can you hear me now?” Verizon guy.

    3. Jennifer*

      I don’t think it reflects badly on Subway. The guy probably looked like a marketing dream at the time, and being into kiddie porn is pretty rare.

      On the other hand, if you know you’re into kiddie porn, why did you start seeking fame and fortune and attention when that only makes it more likely that people will find out that you like kiddie porn?
      On a related note, there was someone who was a Big Deal Around Here/minor celebrity in a community I’m in that got busted for porn and the same applies to him. Apparently he’d been a total ass to his ex and terrorized his relatives and came on to a lot of young girls, but it was all getting hidden until the bust. I thought the guy seemed mean and I only was ever around him because certain friends of mine were into his work, but even I wouldn’t have guessed he was into THAT–even if his last girlfriend looked to be 25 at most and he’s at least over 50. Which is a red flag to me, but at least she looked legal.

      1. Allison*

        People have to realize this isn’t like the “good ol’ days” where rich and famous men can do shady stuff and get away with it, it’s 2015. We have smartphones with multiple communication platforms beyond the “text” app every phone comes with, not to mention social media, forums, and the internet in general, and people who know how to hack basically anything. If you do something bad, you will probably get caught, and especially if you’re a public figure, that information will be leaked at some point no matter how much money you toss around to cover it up. You can be a creep or you can be in the public eye, but you really don’t want to be both.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Yep, and now that I think of it, Jared started being famous when everything really wasn’t as connected. He might have thought he could get away with it.

          I also think some creeps think everybody else is secretly a creep, too, and don’t realize they’re as far outside the norm as they are.

          1. Allison*

            Seems to be pretty common, really, people defending sketchy behavior by arguing that lots of people do it.

            1. Blurgle*

              This isn’t restricted to creepy behaviour, though; people generally assume everyone is like them until proven otherwise.

              For a non-creepy example: people who loathe “political correctness” and are open about it generally believe that most people agree with them but are too cowardly to stand up for The Truth. It never seems to occur to them that those who object consider the Politically Incorrect Warrior a big loud-mouthed lying bully.

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        I don’t think it reflects badly on Subway. The guy probably looked like a marketing dream at the time, and being into kiddie porn is pretty rare.

        I’ve never worked in a fast food place but it seems to me that corporate level and local franchise owner are not the same thing. If I found out that a local Subway owner was arrested for child-related abuses/offences, you bet I would never go to that location again if I had been a customer before. But, I’ve never gone to Subway because of their pitchman or advertising — I always thought Jared was kind of creepy and never understood why that campaign lasted as long as it did. I don’t think I’ve ever looked at someone and thought “that guy is into kiddie porn”, it’s just not something that I automatically go to and I imagine most people don’t think that way. Yes, if Subway corporate knew and did nothing, that’s horrible and on them. But I don’t see how punishing the local owner/operators would be useful.

    4. Could be anyone*

      Too many people fail to realize you don’t know what you don’t know till you do. A background check is only going to show what someone has already been caught doing, not what they are doing or might do. The only way to avoid embarrassment is to either never use real people or find those people from Minority Report who can see future events to vet everyone.

    5. peanut butter kisses*

      Subway isn’t the best at looking closely at people they want to be associated with their brand. Google how they awarded Michael Vick a good sportsmanship award after he got out of prison. I know many people who are still boycotting Subway over that. Subway never apologized for that one.

  26. Elizabeth*

    Got invited for a third Skype interview for a great-sounding position. The strange-ish thing is that the company is in my town, as is everyone who’s been interviewing me. This particular company puts a huge emphasis on finding the right fit, so their hiring processes are notoriously long, but man, there’s a part of me that is saying, “Invite me for an in-person already!” Also, there’s only so many “appointments” I can have when it comes to coming in an hour late or leaving an hour early at my current job before it’s going to start raising suspicion.

    I know I shouldn’t be looking a gift horse in the mouth, just a minor vent in terms of an otherwise good week. :)

    1. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

      Other excuses–you have to get a blood draw for cortisol level and it has to be done between 8-10am.

      1. Elizabeth*

        That’s a good one! I just heard back–interview is at 8:30am. They said it will only take 30 minutes, so worst case scenario I’m in by 9:20ish (I work 9-5). My supervisors don’t usually roll in until about then anyway.

    2. Lia*

      It’s amazing how your plumbing can develop sudden problems first thing in the morning, requiring you to go in late! ;)

  27. Ad Astra*

    My boss is looking for suggestions to make our work environment more fun, creative, and comfortable. Our company’s culture overall is very buttoned-up, our office is visually appealing but virtually silent, and our industry is very traditional. But my department is marketing, and our office isn’t a great environment for that.

    My biggest gripes about working here are the puny vacation packages, the very formal dress code, and the fact that most employees (excluding marketing) can’t access social media or other “non-work” websites on their computers. None of these things is an option to change, so I’m at a loss.

    Should we just turn on some music or what?

      1. Ad Astra*

        Well, it’s kind of a conflict between the culture of our department and the culture of the company as a whole. None of us have worked in our current industry before, so we’re used to more casual, creative, collaborative workplaces. My coworker has suggested things like spirit weeks and scavenger hunts and different kinds of games, but I worry that those would start to feel like forced fun.

        We talked about bringing some kids in to trick-or-treat around Halloween, but there’s no way we’d be allowed to wear costumes.

      2. Windchime*

        Sounds like they don’t want fun so much as they just want people to appear to be less unhappy. Of course, the answer to that is usually making sure that people have generous pay and benefits (including vacation and sick time), as well as loosening up the dress code for special occasions. For instance, we are allowed/encouraged to wear Seahawk gear on the Friday before a home game in our office.

        But yeah. Saying “let’s make our office appear to be more fun while still keeping everyone on virtual lockdown” isn’t probably going to yield a bunch of good ideas.

      1. Ad Astra*

        As a company, we’re allowed about 3 dress-down days a year as part of various charity things. I don’t think we could get the big boss’s approval for anything more than that. It’s a real sticking point around here, for reasons I don’t understand.

      1. Ad Astra*

        I don’t think there is a budget, but I’ve considered suggesting food or something. We already benefit from plenty of leftovers and treats on our floor (free food at least once a week), and we have a floor-wide potluck every other month. Our company provides soda for meetings, but it’s supposed to be a nice thing to offer guests or a rare treat for an employee who’s been in meetings all day.

        I’m trying to lose weight and encouraging people to bring junk food in probably won’t help my efforts, but it would kind of add to the fun factor. Especially if employees weren’t tasked with buying or cooking it.

        1. fposte*

          If your boss can’t change any of the restrictive policies *and* can’t spend any money, I don’t think there’s any way to significantly perk things up there long-term.

          1. Ad Astra*

            It’s more likely that he can find some money in the budget than that he can relax the policies. Our dress code is mostly devised by our company’s president, who has forbidden men to roll up their long sleeves in the summer because he “doesn’t think it’s a good look.” (They’re also not allowed to wear short sleeves.)

            It sounds like free food might be our best bet.

      2. Allison*

        Seriously, don’t underestimate free food. My company started giving us free bagels on Monday and I can’t speak for everyone, but free bagels are awesome! As is free pizza. And routinely being given free bags of pirate’s booty and cheez-its is great too. I don’t need alcohol, just gimme cheese!

        1. Kelly L.*

          Seriously. I realized, after posting “free food” as one of my “bests” upthread, that free food figures in several people’s bests.

    4. pony tailed wonder*

      We have been having fun with the buy two brands of junk food and taste test to see which is the best – i.e. Pringles vs. Lay’s Stax – get one from each flavor and do side by side taste offs. The Lay’s Do Me A Flavor thing where they have the 4 new flavors auditioning this summer to be permanent was also popular. Store brand chocolate chip cookies vs. Chips Ahoy, etc. Everyone wants to have their opinion listened to and it is fun and cheap to do.

      1. pony tailed wonder*

        By they way – no clear winner in the Do Me A Flavor except only one person liked the Gyros flavor, other were spitting that one out. Pringles vs. Lays Stax – it was half and half. Store brand vs. Chips Ahoy – Chips Ahoy until the cost difference was told and then people went about half and half.

  28. bassclefchick*

    It happened. My contract got cancelled. Today is my last day at my current assignment. Of course, this is not shocking to me since 165 people got laid off last week. It was just a matter of time. The permanent employees are still worried about their jobs. Some think that this location will be closed within 5 years. So, it’s probably for the best.

    On the plus side, I already have a new assignment! I’m going back to a company I previously temped with. They really liked my work and I’ve heard they’ve been asking if I’m available. I just talked to my old boss yesterday and he said they have a position for me! Yay! AND they are going to pay me more than the last time I was there! Yippee!!!

    I don’t have a firm start date yet, but that’s OK, at least I have something and I won’t have to file for unemployment. I’m getting rather burned out on being a temp and always worrying about when my assignment will end. I’m going to have to buckle down and start putting out resumes for permanent positions and hope that I find something soon.

    1. littlemoose*

      I’m happy to hear that another door opened for you right away. It’s great that the previous company wanted you back – you must have been awesome there!

    2. Mel*

      By chance, are you at the location in the land of cheese? What’s your area of expertise (marketing, food science…) If you are, I might know of something that might work for you.

      1. bassclefchick*

        I AM in the land of cheese! I am mostly administrative and worked in the transportation department.

        1. Mel*

          Don’t know if this is too far for you- But there is an Irish company (named for a county in Ireland) that is in Beloit that is looking for people. Knowing where you came from, you have an advantage (there are a few people there from the land of ketchup from earlier).

  29. Isben Takes Tea*

    I’ve just been put in charge of hiring our department’s interns, and so I am reviewing cover letters and resumes (and interviewing) for the first time.

    All I can say is do everything Alison says! It’s amazing how being on “the other side” shifts your perspective on what works and what doesn’t.

    I’m also eternally grateful for all the advice here on how (not) to conduct interviews–I’m grateful to my manager for this opportunity to gain management experience, but she didn’t give me any tools to do it with! I actually found this site by Googling “how to conduct an interview,” and I feel much more confident about what I’m doing after reading posts here for a few months.

    1. Oatmeal*

      Every time I review application materials it makes me feel soooooo good about my own. It is nuts the things people will send, and how people with no apparent experience will apply for anything and everything. (I had someone with only retail and fast food experience apply for a senior level director job this year. It made me wonder why they even took the time…)

      1. TootsNYC*

        yeah! When I was in college, I won a prestigious internship in my industry. I come from a dinky little state school (not even a dinky-but-prestigious private school!), and most of these internships go to high-profile colleges.

        Years later, I was asked (or volunteered?) to review the applications from that year’s crop. I felt SO good about my own application packet.

    2. SL*

      Because of Alison’s advice, I wrote an incredibly customized cover letter for my current job. My boss still refers to what I wrote about, or will say “I remember that from your cover letter!” when things come up related to some of what I wrote in that opening paragraph. And even now, when I review resumes and cover letters, I look for things that I wouldn’t have known to look for if it weren’t for this blog.

    3. BRR*

      Being on the other side is some of the best help when you have to job hunt yourself. I wish everybody could experience the process.

  30. GOG11*

    I interviewed for a job yesterday. I’m not actively searching by any means, but this job seems like a great fit. It would move me in the direction I want to go, it would allow me to do the things I enjoy about Current Job without most of the stuff I loathe, and it would allow me to work with a manager I’ve worked under before who is AMAZING. I’d also have an office. With a door. O.M.G., people. My very own door.

    The hiring manager called me yesterday evening to follow up, see if I had any other questions, and to see where I was at with things (what did I think about the position sort of stuff). I wasn’t able to chat, but we’re scheduled to talk this evening. She did say in the voicemail that I interviewed “exceptionally well” and I’m optimistic. At this point, I’m going to brush up on etiquette and logistical stuff for potential next steps, but assume I’ll keep on keeping on where I am.

    1. Beti*

      An office with a door sounds delightful. I’ll be moving into an office job in another year or so (I’m currently working in an A&D facility) and I’m really afraid I’ll end up in an open office at one of those long shared desks. I just cannot relate to anyone who says they hate offices and like the huge open spaces. I can manage a cube but a cavernous noisy office? That’s going to be difficult transition. Good luck!

  31. Retail Lifer*

    What are your thoughts on applying for another position in a company when a decision hasn’t yet been made about a different position that you recently interviewed for? I made it through all of the interviews, sent thank you emails, and was contacted for some more information for a non-retail job (finally!). That was two weeks ago. I sent a follow up email this morning and although she assured me that the position hadn’t been filled yet, the recruiter’s usual friendly, casual tone was replaced with a canned response. I know the rule about mentally moving on after an interview (and boy, has that helped with all of the rejections), but I don’t want to do anything that MIGHT even SLIGHTLY jeopardize my chances at this job. It has been literally the only job that I’ve gotten this far in the process with that wouldn’t involve a big pay cut and would actually be a great career opportunity. The other job is at a different division of the same company and I would be dealing with the same recruiter, but probably not the same upper management that I already interviewed with. I don’t want them to think I’m not interested in the original job anymore, especially because I know at the last step it was down to me and just a couple other people. Is there a chance that it might come off the wrong way if I apply to this other job before I’m officially rejected for the first job?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Hmmm.. I think there is probably a way to do this, but I don’t think I’d officially apply for the other job as a first step. How about sending an e-mail to the recruiter like, “As I’ve learned more about x position, I’ve become even more excited about working for your company in this role [because…]. I saw that you are also hiring for y role, and I wanted to let you know that y interests me as well [because…]. I wanted to let you know that I’m very interested in being considered for both. Since I have an application pending already, I wasn’t sure of the process for expressing my interest in the y position, and I didn’t want you to mistake my interest in y for a lack of interest in x. Perhaps this e-mail is all you need, but if there’s a better way for me to communicate that I’d like to be considered for both x and y, I’d appreciate your sharing that with me. Thank you [blah blah].

      You can probably word that more efficiently – I didn’t really edit.

      1. Retail Lifer*

        I’m half tempted to cut and paste that and just edit out the blah blah blah part. ;)

        Thanks!

        1. BRR*

          This is a tough situation and I like Ashley’s message. If you can I would try and wait with your application materials ready to go.

    2. PhoenixBurn*

      Apply. It won’t necessarily hurt your changes, and if it’s a different division, then you’d have a different hiring manager. Good luck!

    3. Jennifer*

      I doubt it, no job is certain any more. I’d apply for the other one too just in case.

      On the other hand, if they didn’t pick you for the first job, it’s entirely possible they’ll pass information about you to the people hiring for the second job.

    4. TootsNYC*

      I think you could just say, “I saw the other position, and would like to apply for it, but I’m hesitant, because I don’t want you to think that I’m not really enthusiastic about Job A. Job A is the one I would prefer, and I’m very interested in it. But if somethign doesn’t work out there, I don’t want to lose out on the chance to be in the running for Job B. What would you suggest?

      Just bring it out into the open and acknowledge it. There’s no reason to hide it.

  32. Eugenie*

    Any other museum or non-profit have problems with their Marketing departments? I’ve had ongoing issues with territory for years with the Marketing team being convinced that it’s their job to tell my team (front line visitor and programming staff) what to do and how we should develop our programs. This all came to a head this week with a pretty contentious meeting between me and the Marketing VP. They keep claiming they’re thinking is totally standard, but that hasn’t been how planning or programming has worked anywhere else I’ve worked and now it’s got me wondering if I’m just way off base with my thinking

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      My understanding is that planning and programming is decided first, and then marketing figures out how to…market…that.

      I can see that if the marketing department has been burdened with bringing in X demographic, they would best know what X demographic wants, and would then inform the operations side what needed to change. Maybe the marketing VP feels like this is the case?

      Maybe a follow-up discussion would be helpful so everyone understand everyone’s goals, and where those goals are coming from (self-initiated or from higher-ups).

      1. Hoopdeedoop*

        I am marketing/comms for a museum, and since starting I’ve been trying to be very delicate not to control programming etc. because we have super talented people here who a) do that way better, and b) know the missions and subjects way better. They come to me for how to reach target audiences, how to communicate, how to strategize and implement etc. I enjoy being invited during the planning stages and NOT advising on the programming itself but adding input on how we can communicate and cross-promote everything we do.

        IMHO There are two thoughts to marketing, the one you mentioned above where a program/product is created and then marketers market.
        My approach to marketing is kind of Purple Cow, in that half of the marketing is in creating a totally killer program/service/product with marketing “in mind” from the beginning. So maybe that’s where the conflict comes in – because marketing want to create a program that they know they can market. I’d love to do that, sure, but the people where I work are so freaking creative that they tell me an idea they have and I say “I can totally market that – do it!” And the conversation flows from there.

        Having said that, it doesn’t always work like that. Sometimes the programs are rigid and hard to promote and my suggestions for changing language are shot down. And sometimes I’m viewed with suspicion because of previous conflicts before my time.

        1. Isben Takes Tea*

          I agree that the whole system works best when it’s a top-to-bottom partnership.

          I work in publishing, and the marketing team participates in discussions of whether or not an editor should acquire a book so they can provide feedback and suggestions about how the book could could be marketed. It’s ultimately an editorial decision about what books get acquired, and once they’re acquired the marketers have to do their best with it, but the editors know that the marketing team knows their stuff and values their input from the beginning.

    2. Bekx*

      I’m not in either of those fields….but I know in jobs I’ve worked the events/programming person has been under marketing. Take my comment with a grain of salt, but if the VP is from a different background….that might be why there’s tension.

    3. Marie*

      I work in a museum and our marketing director frequently creates events herself with no input. Our director thinks everything she does is gold so he okays everything but to me, marketing should be marketing existing events, not creating more work for everyone else. Maybe museum marketing just attracts those type of people?

      1. Kelly L.*

        Ugh, I’ve experienced something similar. Marketing would create events “about” our department but not tell us, and then we’d get all these calls and sound like idiots.

      2. Eugenie*

        So glad I’m not the only person with this issue! My events team works insanely hard on all of their programs and the marketing vp just likes to poke holes in everything and is now suggesting re-working how our teams work together (to give marketing way more leverage, of course). I’m putting my foot down and saying they have no place in that process, plus our events have been super successful in terms of audience growth, revenue, efficiency, etc — why re-invent the wheel when everything’s working pretty well!

      3. Hoopdeedoop*

        I’m a museum marketer and never do that, so I promise we are not all like that! I take an existing event/program and find a way to fit it in with our marketing goals.

    4. Oatmeal*

      YES. We had this exact problem. The communications department wanted wayyyy more control over things than they should have. It got to the point that they were basically changing program guidelines for “grammar and flow”. They also tried to impose overly perscriptive proof reading and copy editing guidelines on us that interfered with everyone else’s deadlines and work styles.

      The solution (which won’t help you) is the the manager in charge of the department decided to move on of her own accord. We have a new director now and she is soooo much better. She sees her department’s role as communicating the work that other teams are doing. Her team (same people) is now supportive and helpful. It is way more functional.

      So… that doesn’t help probably, but I definitely commiserate.

    5. Samantha*

      I’ve worked at several nonprofits, usually on the marketing/communications side, but most recently in programs. And in almost every job there were issues between the two departments. It’s been interesting to see both sides of it. It should be programs staff developing the programs, but sometimes marketing can feel like they’re not given the information (or the information in a timely manner) to be able to do their jobs. I hope you can sit down with the marketing VP and really get to the bottom of what the issue is and why they feel they need to be involved in program development.

      1. Hoopdeedoop*

        Yes, there have been times where me (as the marketer) know an event is approaching and we need to get the word out, but with few details to go on, which is a nightmare. So I have to make it up, and then suddenly I get revised copy because what I did was totally wrong …

    6. Anonsie*

      Oh bzzzzzt if marketing could handle doing expert museum programming, we wouldn’t have people who specialize in museum programming. It’s a separate job for a reason.

    7. Ragnelle*

      It’s good to hear that other organizations have existing tension between marketing and programming departments. My workplace is doing much better with it now after the director stepped in to make sure everybody was clear about their roles, which means that the front-line staff plan programs from A to Z and are responsible for passing the information on to marketing in a timely manner so the events are promoted. I don’t think the initial problem was anyone’s fault; in fact, part of the issue was that the program costs were coming out of the marketing budget (?!?!?, I know!) when our current marketing person got here.

      Because she enjoys doing programs and because our organizational structure allows it, our marketing person is responsible for planning a few very big events every year. Other departments plan programs for their area, but anything general interest with large crowds falls under her purview. It works for us.

      I would definitely recommend that you do all you can to get everyone’s roles clarified. Our situation got pretty toxic before the director stepped in, and the fallout lasted for a few months, which wasn’t a good situation for any of the employees involved or the people we serve.

    8. BRR*

      That’s highly unusual but honestly I think a marketing department weighing in would be nice in a certain respect. I used to work in the development department of a performing arts organization and we could tell you what patrons liked and didn’t like but programming never asked us. And this wasn’t some huge shift where we would have strayed super far from our mission. I could go through the calendar and pick out what wasn’t going to sell well and what donors wouldn’t enjoy.

      But really one department should be careful when telling another department what to do unless it’s something like finance giving instructions on how to write out their budgets or something.

    9. AE*

      Whenever you hear “Marketing” think “Fund-raising.” That’s their true goal, whereas yours will be more in line with the organization’s mission. Try being cynical with this manager and ask if there’s a pot of gold at the end of their rainbow. Or, ask how you can fit in an educational component into a marketing gimmick that isn’t jiving for you.

    10. ScarletInTheLibrary*

      In the information cluster (and other fields if we’re honest), the marketing department might see their job as a was to make what the museum does as cool as a theme park or latest video game. This can often clash with professional standards and expectations. We’ve had to push back many times when the marketing department wants us to let people into the stacks to demystify what we do (but not schedule tours or work with us to create materials). Or turn the temperature up because people are cold.

      I tiamge these marketing people or upper management people go to conferences and hear what others are doing, and think these new ideas are the norm and are applicable in every situation. Why can be done? The best thing to do is to “educate” the marketing department. Frame this as getting on the same page. This will take a long time and will be painful at times.

  33. LibrarianJ*

    I’m concerned I may have made a goof at work, and I’m hoping to get a sense from other folks of whether this was as big a gaff as it feels, and any suggestions for turning things around.

    My department offered a workshop in June for folks from other departments, and during this event it became clear that one faculty member was very disgruntled about our services (at first glance, it seems a combination of legitimate complaint, poor lines of communication with previous staff and unreasonable expectations on his part). I’m the liaison to his area and he was interested in setting up a meeting to see if we could address his concerns. After some back and forth we arranged a meeting for July. However, I came down with some sort of respiratory thing and the day before the meeting, I woke up losing my voice — I could speak, but with some difficulty and discomfort. I went to the doctor immediately and she advised resting my voice as much as possible. ‘

    Here’s the part where I think I screwed up: I don’t think there’s much room for error in a situation like this, so normally I would have pushed through the long meeting anyway and dealt with the consequences / taken care of my voice later. Unfortunately, this meeting was also about a week before my wedding, and there was a good bet that if I pushed myself I wouldn’t heal in time. This, of course, also meant that I had several days of vacation scheduled over the next few weeks. While I also thought I might wake up completely voiceless the next morning, I admit that the wedding factor probably influenced me more than it should have, and after checking with my supervisor, who said it was fine, I explained the medical circumstances and my upcoming leave, and asked to reschedule the meeting. The individual said that that would be fine and we could reschedule when I returned to the office. I reached out via e-mail (usually the best contact method over the summer) on my first morning back. Unfortunately, that was 3 weeks ago, and I still have not received a response. I am now beginning to despair that I made a huge error in rescheduling, personal life be damned, and that I have missed my opportunity to repair our relationship with this individual.

    Is this an accurate way to look at what happened, or am I being too hard on myself? Friends say that I need to stop writing off my personal life, but I’m not sure that my personal life should have taken precedent here, particularly with something like a wedding that doubtless calls up all kinds of stereotypes about my youth and gender. And if I did screw up, is it out of line to persist in emailing the individual again, or would that be annoying and do I need to wait for a response?

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      You are being way too hard on yourself. You were sick, then you were on leave. You reached out immediately after coming back. I’d reach out again, but there’s no need to kick yourself.

    3. Sadsack*

      I think you are being overly hard on yourself. You were sick. You reached out to reschedule as soon as possible. Why not write again asking if he wants to schedule, or just pick up the phone? No need to be overly apologetic though. Stuff happens.

    4. LCL*

      You are being too hard on yourself. You were physically ill. If it is possible, I would go to the guy’s office with a copy of my schedule and work with him to set up the date. Sometimes email just complicates things (said the person who just sent an email that reads like it was blaming many people for a minor snafu, when it was my fault)

    5. Bostonian*

      It sounds like you’re being way too hard on yourself. Being sick and having things previously scheduled are totally normal, and meetings like this have to be rescheduled all the time.

      I’m not sure about your institution, but you mention that this is a faculty member so I’m assuming a university. Lots of the faculty in my department are all over the place in August, either taking time off or traveling for research, conferences, etc. You might try reaching out again once classes start in September – a lot of people are disorganized and just won’t reply while they’re on the road, or when they know they won’t be able to schedule anything for a few weeks anyway.

      You could also try checking in with someone in his department about whether he’s even in town – he might or might not have an assistant of some sort, but there may be an admin for his lab/research center/department you could ask about the best way to get in touch with him or get some time on his calendar. That’s pretty situation-dependent, though.

    6. fposte*

      In addition to the emotional component–if you’re in the US, and you were trying to get a faculty member in the summer, I’m not surprised you’ve gotten no response yet.

    7. Oatmeal*

      That all sounds totally normal to me. It is very, very, tough to schedule things in the summer.

    8. TCO*

      I don’t think you did anything wrong at all! You are way, way, overthinking this and being far too hard on yourself.

      It’s not surprising the faculty hasn’t gotten back to you, and for reasons that have nothing to do with you. Maybe he just got over his frustration–events/conversations have a way of bringing things up that aren’t really that big of a deal day-to-day. Maybe he’s preparing for the semester, or on vacation, or meeting a big research deadline. Maybe he’s just not that good at responding to e-mail.

      I’d call or e-mail a second time to reiterate your openness to meeting, and then the ball is in their court. You could always find an “excuse” to stay in occasional contact with this faculty member throughout the year so that he knows you’re responsive and willing to meet should he want that down the road.

    9. AE*

      Wouldn’t a faculty member be really really busy about now, with syllabi and faculty meetings and whatnot? Or squeezing in a family vacation before things get crazy?

      1. Red*

        Seconding this – August is the last month of summer sabbatical style stuff for our faculty. Not to mention that faculty seem to perceive time very differently, ha.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Let’s pretend this is your error. It’s NOT. But just for argument’s sake let’s pretend it is. You still can’t unring the bell. You can only move forward, which means call the person. Or if he has an office, maybe consider going to see him.
      See? No, matter which way you slice this one the answer is still the same. Pick up the phone, apologize if you must and continue forward.

      When something eats at me, the way this is eating at you here, I have to develop an action plan and start my plan. I can’t let it fester.
      I had a problem that someone needed x from my boss. Technicality speaking, I should have filled the request, but because I was new to the job there was no way I was going to be able to sort all that was needed to fill the request. The man made the request THREE times. A huge no-no in my arena to allow that to happen. Finally, one day the boss and I dropped everything and worked on the request. We completed the work. I hand-delivered the work to the man several towns over. I made sure he had the information he wanted and I answered all his questions (this took about 1o minutes). It was enough of a gesture to turn that whole situation right around.

    11. TootsNYC*

      I’m sorry–that can’t possibly be a big mistake. Not in a fair world.

      I think the mistake was in not following up at week 1; you’ve waited 3 weeks for a response, and I think you should have pinged him after one week.

      But, no biggie–ping him now. And ping him every 3 days until you get it on the calendar.

      1. TootsNYC*

        oops–saw the faculty schedule notes. So ping him now, and include in that a plan to ping him about 3 weeks after classes start. Maybe even suggest a set time to meet.

    12. ModernHypatia*

      Totally in the ‘this is totally normal summer weirdness scheduling’.

      I’d try reaching out one more time by email, and then, if you don’t hear anything back, either stop by in the first week of classes (can you find a time when you’re pretty sure he will be in his office? Like the tail end of public office hours?) with something you think he’d like. This can be something like coffee or candy, if you happen to know the person likes it, but a copy of an article that’s right up his alley, or a “Hey, we’ve got a little money to order things in your area” or “I’ve got some ideas to help with [project he cares about/class he teaches].”

      And then a “I really do want to talk more to you about that thing, over the summer, so I can understand your concerns and see how we can make things work better. I’m really sorry I had to cancel on you, but here’s when I’m free the next few weeks.” (make sure you have your calendar handy!)

      You can do the same thing by email, too, but sometimes stopping by helps – both with making the person feel you really do care about sorting it out, and especially with someone who feels their concerns have been ignored/etc.

      1. Thinking out loud*

        +1 to stopping by his office if it’s possible. That had lots of benefits – he knows you value the meeting, you can see whether he’s annoyed, and you get the meeting set up immediately.

  34. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

    I’ve been waiting for this thread for days!

    I have a Skype interview for a part-time job next week, and I have a question about the etiquette of where to take the call. A couple of things to note up-front – I need to take the call during the work day because of the availability of the interviewer, and it needs to be a video (rather than voice) call because the position itself is Skype/video-call-based, so asking to do the call as voice-only is out. While my full-time job (which I plan to keep) has no explicit policy against taking on additional part-time work, most people with second jobs tend to keep it very quiet, so I can’t do the interview at work, and I’d rather not do it from a local Starbucks or whatever because of the risk of someone from work walking in and wondering what I’m doing.

    Is it ok to video-Skype from my car? I will, of course, check to make sure the tech side of things works out before I take the call, but I’m worried it will come across as weird. If it’s not ok to do this from my car, any other suggestions of types of places I can go that will be sufficiently private? (I could maybe manage to go home if I absolutely need to, but I’d have to invent a doctor’s appointment or something to account for taking an extra-long lunch, which I don’t love doing, so I’d rather avoid it if at all possible.)

    Also, I’ve never done a Skype interview with video before – anything I should be taking into consideration as I prepare? I’m confident and comfortable with interviews generally, and for the type of position I’m applying for in particular, but not sure how (if at all) the video aspect changes things.

    1. CJ*

      If you do it from your car, consider right outside of the Starbucks or a McDonalds or someplace where you can still hop onto their Wifi. Unless you know for sure your phone has really great connectivity.

      Consider getting a mini tripod, so you don’t have to try to concentrate on holding your phone super still the entire time.

      Consider what is in the background too… if you could see people walking around, it might be slightly distracting.

      1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

        Thanks – I was planning to go to a park where the parking lot is typically empty, but I will make sure to test my phone’s connectivity from that location before the interview (I hadn’t thought of that!).

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I think it would be odd to take the call from your car, especially since they’re interested in your Skype fluency. Where would you be doing the calls from if you got the job? I’d do it there, even if it means having a “personal appointment” over lunch.

      1. Chriama*

        Agreed. Car for a phone call is fine, but for a skype call would be weird. And if there are any issues with connectivity, it will influence the whole tone of the interivew. Do it from wherever you’d do it if you got the job.

    3. Beti*

      Most of the public libraries in my area have little study rooms around the perimeter you can reserve. They generally have wi-fi and the rooms are very quiet. The decor of the rooms is pretty neutral and looks sufficiently business-like. Is that an option?

    4. Oatmeal*

      If you’re in a midsize or largish city, see if you can find a co-work space that rents by the hour. They’ll usually have small meeting rooms and they are becoming more popular and common.

      Things to be aware of during Skype interviews: lag time (you might find yourselves accidentally talking over each other because of it), and make sure that you are looking at the correct angle so it looks like you are actually talking to the person. It is good to practice this one because it can be unintuitive. (Making it worse is that you can’t check by looking at the picture of yourself in the corner… that only makes it worse.)

    5. BRR*

      Alison has a good post on skype interviews so search for that. Your situation is a little more difficult though, here are some thoughts:
      -I would make sure to have Wifi.
      -Make sure your phone is charged.
      -I feel like a professional background reflects better on you, not your car or a park, and something plain is less distracting.

      I’m sorry I can’t think of any place specifically that hasn’t already been mentioned.

    6. Kristine*

      I actually have to offer a dissenting opinion on this. If I were the interviewer for this part-time job (who knew that you worked full-time) I certainly wouldn’t hold it against you if you Skyped in your car. As long as it’s quiet and your connectivity is good, I don’t see the issue. I’m actually curious as to why others see this as unprofessional.

  35. CJ*

    It’s been an almost 2 month process (and still going) for the nice, Big University job I’ve been kind of pining for. I’m pretty happy where I am, but this would be a good step in the right direction.

    No question, just venting about why the process has to take so long!!!

    1. InterviewFreeZone*

      Same here, though not as long. Mine has just been 3 weeks so far, but there are two more possible rounds and I haven’t heard anything since early last week so I’m not even sure if I’m moving on to the next round yet. And now other jobs are coming out of the woodwork, but I too want Big University Job more than the others! Sigh. My last university job hiring process started in late June and I didn’t have my first day of work until after Labor Day.

      1. CJ*

        I hope I don’t have to wait until Labor Day, but if it means I get the job, so be it.
        And good luck to you! 3 weeks is forever is Job-Searching Land…

    2. fposte*

      Two months is about average at my university, I’m afraid; throw in the fact that it’s over the summer, and I’m not surprised it’s going longer. Good luck for good news soon!

      1. CJ*

        Thank you! She did mention that vacations have side-tracked the decision, so yep, that’s part of it.

  36. June*

    Friends with MBAs–I’ve ready some things lately about how an MBA is not worth as much as it used to be. Has anyone had that experience? I’m starting to do research on schools and programs, but being as I’m still not 100% sure what I want to ~do with my life~ I don’t want to make the decision to go back to school and spend $$$ lightly.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      (MBA spouse here, not MBA myself.)

      MBAs can be incredibly valuable, but only in certain circumstances:

      – You attend a full-time program at a top ~20 school.
      – You want to work in finance, consulting, marketing, etc. – the classic MBA fields.

      The on-campus recruiting process opens up a lot of opportunities that literally aren’t available any other way.

    2. Rat Racer*

      I second Victoria Nonprofit. There are so many MBA programs out there and they are not all created equal. If you have a sense of what industry you’re most interested in (and it’s not, say, banking) you might get more bang for your buck with a Master’s in Public Policy (if you’re interested in government/non-profit) a Master’s in Public Health (if you’re interested in healthcare) or something else that’s industry-specific. Those programs are much less expensive. My graduate program at UC Berkeley was $2,500 per semester – and I worked as a grad student researcher for 3 out of the 4 semesters so my tuition was free and I was paid a stipend.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Other than the top 20 schools Victoria mentioned and going into finance or consulting, I see if fairly useful for people to go to local schools part-time to get ahead in their current companies, depending on the career track they’re already on. I think you have to time it right (5-10 yr people), though, and I haven’t seen that type of degree as particularly useful to try to find a brand new career when you graduate. (Most of the people I know doing what I describe are getting reimbursed, too, so they have to stay at their companies for a while).

      2. BRR*

        This is what I would think in addition to Victoria’s thoughts. Especially if the programs isn’t too expensive or your company covers it.

    4. Bostonian*

      I’m in grad school now – a masters degree, not an MBA, but I’d say don’t do it unless you’re sure. It’s best to work backwards: figure out what kind of job you want, and then look at what you need to do to get there. For the kind of job you want, does what school you go to matter, or is it a credential you have to check off to even be considered? Would a degree from a locally/regionally respected school do what you need, or should you aim for a nationally-ranked program? Would an MBA program get you access to an alumni network or internships that would be helpful? Are you changing careers and a graduate degree is a good way of doing that (my situation)? Or could you get to what you want to do by working your way up to it? Is there a similar degree that you could get at least partly funded, or could you find a job where the employer would sponsor you?

      If you don’t know what job you want, pick a couple of things that sound interesting and start doing a lot of networking and informational interviewing. My undergrad alumni network was great for this, and it really helped me get clear on what I wanted to do and what my options were to get there.

    5. Hillary*

      I second AnotherAlison’s comment, but don’t spend the money until you know your goals and can calculate the ROI. It might be worth taking the GMAT now too so you can understand what schools you can get into.

      In my area there’s been a proliferation of new business schools. They’re accredited, but not established. If a hiring manager won’t recognize and respect the name it’s not worth it.

      If you’re looking at full time, I agree with Victoria.

  37. Feeling pigeonholed*

    I went to graduate school in a technical field, but wound up taking a job in an event planning/communications role related to that technical field. After four years, I have come to the realization that I dislike event planning and communications; instead of serving as a technical expert myself, I’m just supporting and connecting all the other technical experts. I hate that my own technical expertise is eroding, and I’d love to find a more analytical/research position. I want to produce new knowledge and advise projects.

    My question is, is it too late? Have I pigeonholed myself and screwed myself over? Will I need to take a step down to a more assistant-level position in order to re-orient my career? Or will my graduate degree and my broad familiarity with the technical field still be a boon to me?

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      Is there a way to take some continuing education courses to keep your degree fresh? Without knowing the details of your degree, I’d think you would want to show that you are staying current on trends and new research/technology.

    2. Lillie Lane*

      (I have a graduate degree and work in a technical position). Not knowing what your field is, I tried imagining myself in a similar situation, as if I were in my coworker’s job (marketing/communications/event planning). I think you’re probably overestimating the pigeonhole effect. Are you sure your technical expertise has eroded that much over 4 years? Have you worked closely with the technical team members, synthesizing plans/processes/protocols/materials? Have you attended/organized industry events and communications? Any/all of these are keeping you in the loop somewhat, and that’s what I’d focus on.

      I was in a similar situation about 5 years ago, where I had a 3-yr position that was more on the education/outreach/event planning side and wasn’t technical. However, I easily moved back into a technical role because it also required some outreach/client interaction that someone with a purely technical background might find challenging. The job you have now may in fact make you a more flexible candidate!

      1. Lillie Lane*

        And (maybe) like you, I hatehatehated the event planning stuff. I have so much admiration for event planners because they are talented and can handle something I am not.good.at. It’s giving me anxiety just thinking about it!

    3. AE*

      Fortunately, you’ve met a LOT of people along the way who might offer better answers to that question than we will.

    4. catsAreCool*

      You may have made some great contacts in your current work that might be able to help with this. You may need to take more classes, and you might have to take a lesser role than you want, but it sounds like that would be better than going forward on smoething you don’t want to do.

  38. Van Wilder*

    An update on The Sleeper.

    My senior manager wanted to talk to the partner (I’m the manager) before we had a formal conversation with our employee about his sleeping during the training. But then we were having another short training on Monday and my senior manager was threatening to go to the training and watch him and wake him up, embarrassing him if necessary.

    I couldn’t let that happen so I pulled him aside and told him that he really needs to be awake during the trainings. And if he needs to excuse himself to get water, or stand in the back, he could do that. He apologized and said he knows it’s a problem and he didn’t get sleep the night before, etc. So, he stood for the whole training. Reports came back that he still had his eyes closed at times but, honestly, I’ll take it.

    We’re having other problems with him and the other new staff on our project. They are both slow to pick up on things, seem easily distracted and have trouble concentrating, and take longer on tasks than they should. We’re working with them but also taking notes on everything because we can’t have them slowing us down if they don’t improve. We are a large firm and get hundreds of new hires every year and these two are just sub par. But, we live to manage another day.

    4. AE*

      Are you paying people so little that they have to work a second job? Otherwise, if they’re still in their probationary period, just say goodbye and move on.

  39. Natalie*

    TL;DR version: I’m currently planning on putting in my notice about a year from now and finishing school full time without working. Have you done this? Thoughts? Things I should plan for since I have about 18 months before I’ll be sans job?

    Longer version: I work full time and am in school part time getting the accounting education I didn’t know I wanted during College 1.0. My job has lots of advantages at the moment but I’m pretty unhappy here. And yet, assuming I have time to look for another job I always find myself unable to take the leap and go somewhere else.

    My fiance and I have been having some conversations about me doing the last portion of school full time and not working. We can live on his income, especially if I save extra money until then. I’m also pretty attracted to making a clean break from this place and having time during my final undergrad semester and my masters’ program to network and volunteer in a professional capacity. Curious what other people’s experiences with this are.

    1. Artemesia*

      The full time school covers your resume so I’d do this in a heartbeat; a new degree sort of resets the clock and it is expected that people will make job transitions like this.

    2. themmases*

      I did this. I’ve had a really good experience and I’m glad I did it. My old job made some changes that made it really awful for me, and since this was a career shift for me I wanted to be available to take student jobs and network with people who actually work in my program.

      My partner pays somewhere between most and all of each of our bills, and I only borrow the amount of my tuition. Both of the research assistant jobs I took didn’t originally come with tuition waivers but were able to offer them later, and they are worth way more than my old job’s tuition benefit would have been (they offered about $5000/year, my tuition + fees are more like $20,000/year) in addition to paying me more per hour (graduate minimum at my school is around $20/hour). So I pay my own personal expenses and help with groceries and entertainment as I can afford. Without my awesome partner, I’m not sure I could have justified the (in-state) tuition loans or leaving my crappy job.

      Save whatever you can this year. Get the highest-interest savings account you can (I use Ally) and if you get a merit increase, redirect the whole amount to your savings account automatically. I am pretty healthy, so I also changed my insurance to a high-deductible option for the last ~7 months I was at my old job and saved the difference. This also came with an HSA that I could keep, rather than the money disappearing at the end of the year. The savings money will come in handy to pay any fees you don’t want to borrow for, cover tuition if you’re ever not full-time and aren’t eligible for aid (this happened to me in the summer when I took one class), start paying your loans off early, or just be an emergency fund that earns you a little interest. I used mine for all of the above.

      My student jobs have paid off in spades. My boss from my first job hired me onto her next project and recommended me for a second job that I did just for fun/experience this summer. They’ve been in areas where I needed experience, for important faculty members and programs. It was scary– especially not supporting myself– but because the degree is neeeded for my career path I’m very glad I did it.

  40. AdAgencyChick*

    I wanted to ask this question last week when I might have actually changed my behavior based on the consensus :) oh well! My last day at old job was yesterday, and I’m plunging into my 10 days of funemployment with gusto.

    But, I’m gonna ask anyway: how much “senioritis” is understandable/acceptable when an employee quits? I realize this may vary by industry and am curious what others think.

    To be clear: I didn’t totally slack off. But I did make it clear to a team that I was doing a favor for anyway — it wasn’t part of my normal job — that that favor did not extend to my being willing to do weekend work for them. Fortunately they were reasonable people and didn’t seem miffed. It did make me wonder, though — where is the line at which it would lead to a bad reference? Refusing to stay a minute past 5? Past 6? Doing all that you’re asked to do but not proactively trying to fill up any downtime? (I definitely did that last.)

    1. fposte*

      There’s no hard and fast rule; it’s going to depend on the person giving the reference, the situation, and the amount of goodwill you’ve built up while you were there.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      I totally rolled out after lunch on my last day. And did next to nothing the whole week before. I’d been planning for weeks to be able to give notice, so everything was as tied up as I could get it at the time.

    3. AE*

      I spend my last minutes touching base with all my coworkers. Sometimes I just tell them how much I appreciate them, sometimes I have in-progress notes for them. I feel the opposite of senioritis. I want to squeeze in every last bit of good stuff before I go. Even the time I knew I was about to be fired, I checked in with the people whose projects I’d tried to support but didn’t succeed, just to tell them that I’d tried and I had been on their side. They all knew that, but I wanted to give them what little encouragement I could. I even named names of higher-ups that I’d said great things about them to, just so they’d know good words had been said on their behalf. I still mist up thinking about some of the people I have left behind.

    4. MaryMary*

      I don’t think anyone really blames the person who put in their notice for dialing it back a few notches during their final days. However, people really remember and speak in glowing terms if someone does go above and beyond before leaving. There was a guy at OldJob who put in 80 some hours his last week finishing a project. He became almost legendary. And when the company he left OldJob for sold off his division and started laying people off, OldJob rehired him right away.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Do people in your company routinely watch this? I had one company that I worked for where the supervisor would keep track of every. single. thing. you did during your notice period. Since I already knew that I was okay. It was not a deep dark secret that she did this, it was a big topic of conversation.

  41. GMA*

    Next week, I have a job interview for a position in city government that involves doing inspections and, therefore, sometimes giving bad news. I’m confident in the technical aspects of the job, but all of my customer service experience has been in retail “the customer is always right” environments, which would not be the case for this position. Does anyone have any tips or guidelines for me on how to deliver non-negotiable bad news? I was told explicitly that there would be a “customer service” question during the interview, and this is what I’m most worried about. I’m a recent grad, have learned so much from this site, and I hope that someone here will have some tips for me!

    1. Retail Lifer*

      It’s really hard to do so, but just stick to the facts and don’t interject any opinions into the news. You can preface it with something like, “I’m sorry, but…” or “I hate to have to tell you this, but…” but you really just need to plainly say what the issue is and what the resolutions, if any, could be.

      1. LCL*

        I will just tell you some general thoughts re how we handle customers.
        When you are actually on the job, make some copies of the relevant section of code that you can hand out to the customers, and walk them through it. If there is something the customer has to do, that should be in a handout that you give and explain to the customer.
        We explain to the customer what needs to be done, and why. We provide them with a business card or handout with an appropriate number to call for follow up. You won’t know the chain of command at the new place yet, but you should know that customers need a follow up number and you will follow policy to provide customers the right follow up number. (This is bigger than you think, customers HATE getting the bureaucracy runaround. When I get misdirected calls from the public, I figure out who they need and give them the correct number.)

        Sometimes, we explain to the customer what could possibly go wrong if they continue doing what they are doing. Not as a threat, but as a natural consequence of physics. We NEVER threaten customers, but we have told them of events where someone has been injured or died.

        We always strive for courtesy and calmness when we talk to customers. We recognize that the customer may be very worked up about something and we may have to ask them several questions to identify their issue.

        It might help your interview if you can find out the term used to refer to the people you serve. It could be citizens, or customers, or rate payers, or tax payers, or residents, or clients, or?

    2. Larold*

      Ugh, this is hard. It helps to remember WHY you’re doing what you’re doing. I do a lot of inspections for compliance with environmental regulations, and it helps me to think about how badly I want to be a good environmental steward, whether its for the benefit of wildlife or residents or people who use the land/water for recreation. That makes it a lot easier to tell someone that they need to do X and Y by such-and-such date or they could potentially face such-and-such consequences, even though you know that it might be difficult/stressful for them.

      Dumb things… I always wear my logo jacket when the weather allows it. I carry a clipboard with copies of any relevant regulations and permits. I bought a lanyard to put my ID in, because for some stupid reason it makes me feel more official.

      Also, remember that it isn’t personal. When I tell people things that they don’t like, they might grumble about my agency as a whole, but they probably aren’t going to think that I’m a jerk, as long as I’m not rude to them. Hopefully it isn’t an industry where a person’s livelihood is on the line, because that does make things a bit more awkward and a bit more personal. In that case, you can go with a slightly softer approach, but you still need to be firm.

      I’m not sure what they’ll ask you in the interview. I had a lot of scenarios presented to me in my interview, and I had to explain what I would do. A lot of my answers boiled down to, “Tell them what they’re doing wrong and back it up with the appropriate sections of the appropriate regulations. Don’t waver even if they make excuses or cry about not having enough money or personnel to get the work done.”

    3. AE*

      My lines:
      This is the policy, this is the reason, I’m just doing my job and trying to help you stay out of trouble.

    4. meggers*

      I agree with the points LCL and Retail Lifer made. Remove opinion. Be clear and specific. Don’t sugar-coat (but don’t be rude). Provide clear next steps, written/emailed in addition to verbal if possible.

      Remove hedging/indefinite language. Unless there are actual options, don’t say “You could do this,” or “Consider trying this.” “This is the next step/solution” is better. If there are actual options, make them clear. If there are options with preferences, make that clear, too. “You can do x or y. Y is preferable, but x is also acceptable.” Use a calm, firm, and confident tone, but be conscious of sounding condescending or overly aggressive.

      Become ok with silence. Deliver the facts, then give people time to process; don’t feel like you need to continue to explain/justify. They’ll let you know if they have more questions. Humans hate uncomfortable silence, and there will be a strong desire to fill the quiet. Don’t. You’ll end up saying unhelpful/weird/unrelated/incorrect things.

      Don’t apologize if there’s nothing to apologize for. That said, if you can sincerely offer empathy (and it makes sense in the context), do that.

      Don’t get into an argument as to whether the requirement makes sense or not. You don’t make policy, presumably, and even if you do, right now, the requirement is x. “Y is destroying my business!” “That may be the case. Currently, though, to be in compliance, Y needs to be in place.” You might even add, “The best place to go with concerns about Y is blah (insert email, website, person’s name, etc.)”

      When possible, rather than say “you did x”, consider using “X has happened” or “X is in violation” or some other passive form. While I’m sure my English teachers cry every time I suggest using passive voice, taking out “you” can help the situation feel less accusatory. When someone hears “You did X,” they typically get defensive, simply because that’s what humans do. “X exists in the universe, and needs to be Y instead” feels a lot less personal. The hearer is more open to next steps and spends less energy investing in rationalizing why X is ok/you are wrong etc.

      As much as you can, try to communicate a sincere desire to help whomever you’re speaking with. Consider approaching the position not as punitive, but rather as you helping the business understand and meet the required standards. Your goal is to help them be successful and safe, and inspections (or audits or meeting regulations) help them do that.

      Be kind and be patient. Some people will be awful. Many will not be as bad as you think.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Real life examples:

      My friend went to get her driver’s license. The examiner got in the car and told her, “The reason I am here is to help you become a better driver.” She exhaled and went on to pass her test.

      A health inspector came into our store. He said, “I am here to help you help your customer effectively.”

      I went to have my car worked on. It was making a noise and I was getting a little nervous. Okay, a lot of nervous. I limped to the repair shop. The service manager came out and said, “NSNR, we have to take your keys. For your own safety we cannot let you have that vehicle back.” (I was relieved at that point, granted not everyone would feel that way.) He told me the problem, he then explained how they would fix the problem and how long it would take. This is more of that explaining stuff. If you can give people explanations that will save you a lot of hassle.

      In short, KNOW why you are there. I am guessing you inspect buildings, perhaps fire code? Okay, then in that case you are there to help keep people safe and keep the person’s business alive and well. If you think of yourself as an Enforcer or a Policeman, you might have difficulty. But if you think of yourself as a teacher, an assistant of sorts, a front line person who keeps people safe, you might gain more ground quicker.

    6. TootsNYC*

      As a manager, I’ve had to deliver bad news for people who worked for me. I like to approach it from a “the job needs this” point of view.

      It’s not personal; it’s not me. It’s not even other people. The job needs this, and it’s not getting it.

      In your case, you might also think of it as providing them information. “Bad news, your restaurant failed inspection, and here’s the info about what you need to do to fix it.”

      Because if they’re *honorable*, they want their restaurant to pass inspection, so they want to know what the problem si so they can fix it.

      You aren’t scolding anybody; you’re not passing moral judgment; you’re not mom or dad or the principal.

      You’re the expert (like the plumber) with the expert information.

      Also remember, it doesn’t matter whether they like or, or whether they agree with you. These are the facts, and you don’t have to wait until they’re happy. You can deliver the information and leave.

  42. T3k*

    Another week, another job hunt (though, thanks to Alison’s advice, I’ve been reworking my resume to hopefully stand out more). It’s pretty frustrating though when I applied for 2 new (contract) positions at this one company, and not even a week later, they were taken down, meaning they’ve already picked someone (this is the type of company that leaves job postings up on their site for months until they fill it). My guess is they already had someone in mind, but their policy dictates they have to post it up anyways and get some hits on it.

  43. Nefarious Hibachi (formerly Kay)*

    I’m not even sure what my question is about this situation.
    I work at a State government, however I am a Temp, not an actual employee here. Yesterday I got on an elevator, and shortly after me, five men got on. I had my resting bitch face on, and the guy closest to me said “Well hello there…” I gave him a brief smile and moved over slightly to give him more room. He immediately said “Oh a nice big smile, that just made my whole day”, proceeded to move closer to me and stare at me. He then started making weird kissing sounds next to me. His friends started laughing and saying “oh you are such a tool”. I got off the elevator and walked over to a wall to pretend to make a phone call so he wouldn’t follow me off, and he stared at me and then licked his lips as he went by. I ended up shaking and crying in my and waiting until a friend could come and take me back up on the elevator. The same friend told me that I really should report it.

    So I went to my boss and told her what happened. She was very sympathetic but the first thing she said was “Well, from now on make sure you don’t get on a crowded elevator”. I explained that they had gotten on MY elevator. She then said “Next time you need to say ‘Stop that right now'”. The problem was…I didn’t feel safe speaking in that situation. I feel like a bit of an idiot because I like to think of myself as this badass chick who can handle anything, but it just did not feel like a safe situation there. My boss said that if I wanted to I could go down to the floor and try pointing out the guys, but….ugh. My boss said that they are going to try to approve a memo to go out, but now I just want it over with. I know that it’s already getting spread around the office, and I hate that I am going to be the target of gossip. I like to be thought of as supremely competent, and I’m really worried that more people are going to have the (ridiculous) reaction of “Well, why didn’t you say something at the time”. I guess, the question for the AAMhive is…what should I have done? Also, what the hell right? It’s stupid for me to be worried every day about getting in the elevator, its stupid that I have to change my behavior if I want to avoid this in the future. Is it even worth taking this another step?

    TL;DR uggggggggggggh

    1. Violetta*

      Wow I am so sorry that happened to you. What an asshole. And your boss’ reaction was useless. In what world is it acceptable to advise an employee to avoid using the elevator at HER PLACE OF WORK like she should expect to feel in danger there? (I’m steaming. What if the guy does this in the breakroom, lobby, or hallway next? Should you just avoid those too?)

      Do NOT feel like this is on you for not having said anything at the time. I personally would have been at a loss of words when faced with such appalling behaviour from a coworker. This is 100 % on that guy and since your boss is being so useless I would strongly encourage you to speak to HR about this. If they have any common sense they’d flip their lid about an employee being treated like this and then being advised to change HER behaviour.

      1. Sadsack*

        I agree, the manager is a useless idiot. Go straight to HR, now. I am sorry this happened to you. F those guys.

    2. CollegeAdmin*

      Nefarious Hibachi, I’m so sorry that happened to you, and that your boss is not at ALL handling it correctly. I’m wondering if you should talk to HR about it, but if you don’t want a fuss, I don’t know if I’d recommend it. (And for what it’s worth: the “fuss” and “target” should be on HIM – and his bystander friends – since they were the wrongdoers. You did NOTHING wrong.)

      I’ll admit, I probably would have done nothing at the time too and kicked myself later for it. I would have wanted to say, “EXCUSE me?!” or “That’s inappropriate, knock it off” or “Back off. NOW” or “If you keep doing that with your lips, I’m going to staple them together.” (Okay, maybe not that last one.)

      Alison and several commenters have previously recommended “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin deBecker (??); I haven’t read it but from what they’ve said, maybe you’d find it useful?

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, I like to think I’d say those things, too, but it is hard to know until you’re in that situation. I probably would be shocked and embarrassed into silence, too. Again, F those guys.

    3. Kyrielle*

      I have to wonder…are there security cameras in the elevator? Because if there are, and it goes to HR, it’s totally possible the guy could be identified and dealt with.

      Honestly, I think you handled it fine, you weren’t expecting a bad moment and weren’t braced to defend yourself from *a coworker* in an elevator *at work* when there were *other coworkers present* no less (a situation that would, you know, deter most such people). And he kept escalating it.

      You might also practice saying “Stop that.” No please, no politeness, “Stop that.” Not because you should have to, but because teaching yourself a script for next time will probably make you feel better about your ability to deal with this. (And if it won’t, then don’t do it, because you shouldn’t have to.)

      Your boss is a tool. Not as much of a tool as the dude in the elevator, but still a tool.

    4. T3k*

      I’d have said something, but that’s just me (probably something along the lines of “What the HELL is wrong with you?” or “You know, you seem to have a weird thing going on with your lips there. You should have a doctor check that out, could be serious.”) But as Violetta pointed out, even if you didn’t say anything, you should not feel guilty about this at all. This is on the guy and his friends (for not telling him to cut it out). If you really feel strongly about it and leaves you feeling unsafe (as you say you’re worried every day about getting on the elevator) I second going to HR about it.

    5. Kelly L.*

      Ew, what idiots, both the boors in the elevator and your boss. You shouldn’t have to avoid normal work settings in order to not get harassed. It sounds like she’s operating under Broken Stair philosophy (see Cliff P*rvocracy) wher everybody knows a situation is bad, but just work around it rather than do anything about it.

    6. Beti*

      First, I’m sorry this happened. Second, try to get past the “I should have done X” mindset. YOU shouldn’t have to be worried about doing ANYTHING. You shouldn’t have to worry about having a plan to deal with harassing behavior in any workplace let alone a government office. It doesn’t matter if you are a temp, an employee or queen of the universe. Their behavior was completely wrong. Third, if I had happened to me, I’d pursue it and get it addressed – and not with some cop-out BS memo. Odds are that this is not the first time these pigs have behaved this way. And it won’t be the last. If you feel like you want to push this forward, you are likely helping other women, too. But seriously, you have the power here – do exactly what is right for you.

      The only change to my behavior is I’d totally carry a stapler and use CollegeAdmin’s line. That’s excellent! Assholes like that look for soft targets. It seems pretty likely to me that any push back will cause them to back down. Good luck!

    7. fposte*

      Yeah, you don’t have a lot of time to figure out a response in a situation like that.

      Another possibility is to focus not on the offender but one of his counterparts. Single one out. “If I report your friend’s sexual harassment, are you going to lie for him?” Wreck the mob glee and break the tacit rule that because he spoke, he’s in charge of them and you’re only allowed to talk to him.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I agree. You did nothing wrong, and in fact I think that actions you did take were BRILLIANT!!!

        You got yourself out to somewhere safe. Good for you.

        Of course you don’t feel safe–and that’s all on the bozo.

        I agree, go to HR. And make the point that guys who will do this once will do it many times.
        It’s not that all guys, or even so many guys, are like this.
        It’s that the guys that ARE like this, do it all the time to everybody. It’s what they’re like; they’re guys who do this. So they will do it.

        Again and again. So make that point to HR, and think of yourself not as a victim, but as a canary in the coal mine, who has the opportunity to alert the office to this unpleasantness.

    8. Chriama*

      You did *nothing* wrong. We don’t really spend time practicing what to say to people who cross typical social boundaries, so it’s not surprising that our first response is usually to do nothing. I think this is worth pointing going to HR if you want, and tracking down the guy. A ‘memo’ to the office doesn’t really mean anything, it would be more effective for them to sit this guy down and tell him (and his 2 douchebros) that this kind of behaviour isn’t appropriate at work. On the other hand, I think you might benefit from some time praciticing what to say in future situations — not because it’s your fault, but because it stops the whole “I should have said something” negative self-talk that happens afterwards.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I agree: we don’t usually spend time practicing how to respond. So of course we don’t think about it (and what you did, in the moment was good caretaking behavior!).

        And, now that you’ve been through it, you might pick a tactic or two that feels right to you, and role play it.
        Maybe going on the attack (step in close, glare, put your hands on your hips, and scold loudly until the elevator gets to your floor). Or questioning (can I have your name? What department do you work in? Who’s your boss?)

        You might find that this exercise builds your confidence and your ability to handle conflict in lots of other places!

    9. AE*

      Stomping on the foot and acting like it was an accident is a good move for an elevator.

      If you don’t feel comfortable doing that, pretend not to be able to hear, or start speaking another language.

    10. Jem*

      I don’t know if it’s possible for you but I would quit the assignment and let my agency and everyone else know why. Give them consequences for letting their employees sexually harrass people.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. No job is worth this crap. You are on an elevator with five guys. The odds are not in your favor. And now you are supposed to tell these guys off? as one woman in an elevator of five guys? REALLY?
        Your boss is not the brightest light in the chandelier.

    11. Hillary*

      I’m sorry this happened to you. If you’re temping through an agency, please call them first thing Monday morning and tell them what happened. They’re your employer, so it’s their responsibility to provide a safe work environment. All the agencies I’ve worked for take this very seriously. They’ll deal with the customer for you.

      If you’re not through an agency, I’d talk to HR, or maybe even ask one of the union reps for advice. Or if you’re friendly with a veteran employee who gets stuff done, they could help. If they let you go because you complain about sexual harassment you’re elible for unemployment in (most?) states. That’s retaliation, not cause.

    12. BRR*

      What an asshat. He needs a good kick in the balls.

      You should have done exactly what you did, you did something you felt comfortable with at the time in an uncomfortable situation.

      Anyways, I’m not exactly sure what they hope to accomplish with a memo. Sending something to everybody doesn’t work. The guy isn’t going to change his behavior. By the way you’re not the target of gossip, he is. I would report it to HR and either go down to identify him or maybe there’s a photo directory you can use. If you boss doesn’t support reporting it to HR do it anyways. She doesn’t seem to be taking it that seriously and she should. Telling you to not get on a crowded elevator, uhh no. That’s stupid advice and victim blaming.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, that part about the gossiping bothers me. OP, so what, let them talk. You have done nothing wrong. I will repeat that: you have done nothing wrong.

        Frankly, it seems to me the only way they would know something happened is if your boss repeated the story. From what I see there are seven people that know the story, you, your boss and the five guys. I don’t think the guys are going to broadcast the story too much. You probably did not say much to anyone else. So that leaves your boss……

        I like BRR’s thought here. Maybe they are saying, “How much longer are these jerks going to get away with their treatment of women before something is done???”

        I know one of the things that bothers me is I feel guilty when I do not stand up for myself in a manner that gets results. It’s not your fault that the boss does not know how to manage. Hang on to that thought. Sometimes we let stuff nag at us and we shouldn’t. Next step, look around, who do you think will actually get this situation without making you draw them pictures? I am liking the idea of reporting them to the temp company. Basically, at this point, you are turning in six people. That’s pretty damning.

        Let us know how this all goes for you. You are right. What they did was wrong.

    13. Thinking out loud*

      Ugh. Ugh.

      First: I am terrible at standing up for myself, but I take no shit when I’m worried about people I like. Imagine those same five jackasses getting in that elevator and doing the same thing to your best friend or your new young intern or your grandmother. Imagine her coming to you in tears and judging herself for not coming up with a good response. Mad yet? I thought so.

      Do you have an HR defiantly? If so, talk to them. If not, you’re probably stuck with your boss. I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that I got he just hadn’t ever had to think about being in this situation, so I hope you can help him to understand. I’d say that I was frightened of them, found their behavior inappropriate, and that I wouldn’t want to allow them to get away with it in case they did the same thing to another woman. I don’t think that avoiding elevators is really the answer – after all, I assume the stairwells are worse! Tell him that, instead of asking around, you’d like to know whether security has video of the elevators – I’d say, “Would you like to go ask them about it, it would you prefer that I do so?”

  44. schnapps*

    I have a behavioural interview on Monday, with the GM of HR and another HR rep at a large muncipality. There’s no hiring manager involved at this point (or so they tell me). I’m doing the thing where I’m preparing my answers to frequently asked behavioural questions and figuring out what kind of questions they’ll ask based on the job description. I’ve had behavioural questions in interviews before but never a solely behavioural interview.

    What are appropriate questions for me toask at the end since there’s no hiring manager? I’m thinking questions relating to organizational culture and values, but I’m a little lost beyond that.

    1. LCL*

      How the hiring process works from here, what is their timeframe, who will be contacting you and updating you on your status.
      Where your office will be, which group will you be working for, if there is shiftwork involved.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      What does an average work day look like?
      Who do I report to?
      How many people are in my department/ have the same job title?
      What is expected of me in terms of training/classes/continuing ed?

  45. Mimmy*

    Man, I have got to stop torturing myself!! In cleaning out our storage unit (which I described in the weekend open thread last week), I came across a binder of old process recordings from one of my MSW internships. While I really struggled with my confidence at times, I was starting to get reasonably comfortable with the intakes and really enjoyed observing other aspects of this facility’s work (a medical rehab facility). I was building knowledge on physical disabilities and all that’s involved with post-hospital rehab and community services. I think it’s why I was hired at my one post-MSW job that I was subsequently let go from less than a year later.

    I was reading through my conversations with the patients, my observations, insights, etc etc….and I just get so sad sometimes knowing that I was actually starting to do something I’d never in a million years thought I’d ever do. Sometimes it felt so natural to “tune in” with a patient or family member and establish a rapport. But then the post-MSW job happened, and everything went out the window.

    In a way, I feel a sense of loss. Loss of what could’ve been had I given myself a chance to grow and allow people to help. I enjoy what I do now (two volunteer councils) and I want to look forward. Definitely something I vow to work on.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You are still you. And you still have that skill. I think the question is where and how to maximize that skill. Sometimes a false start only means that we are supposed to go a different direction but use the same talent/skill.

  46. HR Recruiter*

    Occasionally a sales call gets through to me trying to sell me some product or service. The last two calls I received at the end of the call they asked for my name, title, and birth month and day (not year) so that they could verify that they actually talked to me. I don’t mind giving out any work related information like title, work email, etc. But why in the world are they asking me for my personal information. I don’t feel comfortable giving out any personal information to a stranger that calls me. Their explanation of why they need it doesn’t make sense to me. How is there boss going to verify that they made cold calls by knowing my birthday? If its a scam then why are the only asking for my birth month and day? I’m so confused. Anyone else come across this?

    1. Sadsack*

      I recall getting calls like that a few years ago and I would just hang up after they gave the explanation.

    2. Emmie*

      Perhaps they are scamming you, or will send some sales-y gift on your birthday. Either way, if you are not comfortable giving personal info out, refuse it and be okay with it. It’s invasive and don’t feel bad about it.

    3. Nanc*

      Yeah, we get these a lot because of our industry. We often download gated assets for background on client projects–it’s just easier for us to find them. The sales folks have no way of knowing we’re not an actual prospect. I always say January 31, which is not my real birthday. You’re concern is legitimate–it’s an awful way to verify info. I’ve been asked for eye color, high school mascot and the street name of my childhood home.

      And yes–I’ve had a follow up audit call from a supervisor!

    4. fposte*

      Even if it’s authentically requested of them, that doesn’t mean I have to oblige, and I wouldn’t. I’m giving you valuable data in exchange for what?

      1. TootsNYC*

        Yeah, just ’cause you asked doesn’t mean I have to answer.

        It’s not on MY agenda to help you verify to your boss that you talked to me. Not my problem.

    5. Chriama*

      Why are you even responding to unsolicited sales calls though? If you’re worried about personal info it’s fine to make up a fake profile and just use that, but I think it’s also fine to just say ‘no thanks’. [Side note, I really like saying ‘no thanks’ when people ask me questions like ‘what’s your postal code’. For some reason it’s more satisfying that saying ‘I’m not comfortable sharing that info’. Walmart asked me for this a couple times — don’t know what they think they need it for, but I don’t think I’m interested in giving it to them so there :)]

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Tell them that they have to call the boss and then hang up. That is what I do with some calls, it really confuses them- ha!

    7. catsAreCool*

      “hey asked for my name, title, and birth month and day (not year) so that they could verify that they actually talked to me.” This would be a good time to hang up on them.

      I don’t know if they’re telling the truth about why they want the info, but they’re cold calling and trying to sell you something. You owe them nothing.

  47. Mrs. Audi*

    How hard is it to get into consulting at one of the big firms like BCG or Bain as a career-changer? I’m 4 years post-undergrad degree and have been working as a data analyst for the past 2 years. I have no business background. Thank you!

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Really, really hard. They do most of their recruiting on campus (from undergrad and graduate business programs).

    2. Artemesia*

      They tend to have a very structured hiring process that occurs in time to harvest recent graduates. It is very hard for anyone who has been out in the workforce to break into that process. They don’t want experience; they want new grads to incorporate into their very structured intake and hiring process. I knew a very well qualified person with some connections who still could not break into the hiring process.

    3. SL*

      Like Victoria and Artemesia said, the big consulting firms really only do their entry-level recruiting from universities, or from people with a business background who are connected with the company already (former employees, for example, and even that’s a long shot). They’re much more about training you from the inside than about hiring from the outside. All my connections at any of the Big 4 consulting firms started off as undergraduate interns in the summer before senior year, and often had their permanent job offers (start date post-graduation) in hand at the end of the summer.

  48. Rat Racer*

    Hello wise AAM Community – does anyone have a point of view on the appropriateness of editing my direct reports’ email? I have a new member of my team to whom I’ve delegated several communication projects. Her e-mails, while factually correct, don’t strike quite the right tone. In some cases they’re too formal, when we are asking for collaboration with team members, in others, the most important facts aren’t disclosed up front.

    I’m considering asking her to send me draft correspondence first but:
    1) that feels crazy micro-manage-y
    2) that would create a lot of extra work and take up extra time and
    3) maybe it’s just a matter of personal preference, and I’m locked into thinking that my way is the best way, when that’s actually not the case. Time will tell, I guess.

    Any managers out there who ask for rough drafts of email? And as individuals, would sending a draft email to your manager for editing purposes make you want to run for the hills?

    1. CollegeAdmin*

      I’m going to take a page from Alison’s book and ask: have you talked to her about it? If she doesn’t know that there’s anything wrong with the tone of her emails, she’s never going to change them, but perhaps she could with a bit of guidance.

      If my manager suddenly started asking for drafts, yes, it would come across as “micro-manage-y” to me, and I would wonder why she wanted them.

      1. Sadsack*

        I agree. Tell her exactly what you wrote here. You could offer to show her some examples that illustrate the difference between what she is currently doing and what you’d like to see.

        1. Rat Racer*

          Hmmm… well, the thing is that it’s not that she’s under-performing per se, it’s just that I have a broad range of communication styles that I selectively deploy based on audience and situation. It would be challenging to give my employee direct feedback on what’s she’s doing “wrong” up-front, because what’s problematic in one situation is totally appropriate in another. I could give her feedback when she sends an e-mail that I would have written differently, but I think that could be equally demoralizing.

          1. CollegeAdmin*

            Ugh I’m so torn about this one – I too have certain opinions about tone, but it’s sort of a personal thing. I’d try to focus on the objective areas for improvement such as important facts needing to be more prominent in the email; you may have to let the subject areas like tone slide a bit.

          2. Natalie*

            I don’t know that it would be particularly demoralizing, it depends on how you word things. “Hey, in situations like this I find [suggestion] generally gets me better results than [what she did], just for future reference” is a lot different than “Your emailing is bad and you should feel bad.”

            But I would also check yourself and make sure this is actually a problem and not a personal preference. (Or possibly critiquing her communication more harshly because she’s female? Totally unintentionally, we often expect a more friendly, chatty tone from women.)

            1. Rat Racer*

              Exactly – this totally what I’m grappling with. Email style is on the one hand a personal preference thing, but on the other, so much of success in this role hinges on artful communication, and even though it sounds totally lame, sending economical, concise and politically correct* email is what makes me really good at my job. But it’s not like a math problem where’s there’s only one right answer. I need to be thoughtful about how I would pass on all that I’ve learned in my 3+ years in this role…

              *Politically correct as in corporate politics, I don’t mean PC as in sensitive to broader political issues

          3. fposte*

            I think you’re overthinking the emotion and underthinking the specifics. She needs to be coached on writing styles for various work occasions, and it’s utterly appropriate to do so.

            Pull samples of hers and samples of yours for the same situations. Consider categories that seem relevant: regular request of a superior/equal/client, favor request of a superior/equal/client, information update to [same again], reminder of, etc. Provide her with copies of your stuff to use as a template and that she can note on while you talk so she identifies what’s significant. Identify situations where you’d want to see her draft in advance.

            I’d say if it’s important enough to edit (which to me is really extreme granularity on regular email), it’s important enough to coach. The alternative is that it’s not worth doing either–that she’s not great but it’s not going to hurt anything–and step back a little.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Totally agree! And if you articulate the issue as “adapting your style for different audiences/needs,” I think it’ll be easier to explain what you’re going for and why.

            2. onnellinen*

              Yes – this! I would approach it as coaching, not micro-managing. I’ve done this before, and after going over a few drafts in different situations, they have a much better feel for how to edit and write their emails, and you can be more hands off.

          4. Oatmeal*

            If she’s not actively doing damage with her emails (distributing incorrect information, offending people), I’d have a general “tone” conversation with her (with examples) and then sit back and let her develop her style instead of actively editing all of her emails. Then continue to monitor it from there and raise again if necessary.

            I think writing good emails, and the ability to have a toolbox of communication tools that you can deploy as needed is a skill like any other that takes time to learn and develop.

            I know when I’ve started a new job, it’s taken time to get the “tone” of the place right. I definitely started off overly formal in my current job. I’d find it awfully demoralizing and micro-managey if my manager wanted to edit my emails.

    2. AnonforThis*

      I have to send every single email I send to my boss for review before I can send it (it’s not me-specific, he does this to everyone in our department, even the next-step-down-but-still-quite-high-up managers), and while I don’t hate it, it’s incredibly tedious. It also has the potential to slow things way down on really stupid stuff, like just being able to say “thank you” when someone sends you something you asked for, which could make you look slow-to-respond to external audiences who don’t know that your team has this practice, and ultimately could hurt your reputation a bit.

      It ends up being bearable because: #1) boss does this to everyone; #2) 95% of the time, my email gets approved as-is; and #3)my boss is pretty fast so delays are typically minor. If I was being “specially-selected” for this level of micromanagement, and/or boss was line-editing every third email, and/or boss was taking more than, say, 15 minutes to sign off on the time-sensitive stuff, I’d probably tear my hair out and then quit.

      Is her communication style actually interfering with the successful execution of her projects? Are others coming to you telling you they’re having trouble interacting with her or understanding her or following her direction? If not, I’d think long and hard about whether this is just a personal preference issue. If her style is directly interfering in her ability to complete her job requirements, then definitely discuss with her what she should be doing differently, but unless she’s actively damaging your department through her emails on a regular basis, it’s hard to imagine “hey so, let me line-edit all of your emails” going over well.

      1. Rat Racer*

        Holy moley – does your boss just sit and approve e-mail all day? That’s CRAZY! What kind of PTSD is he suffering from that makes him think he needs to approve every word that comes out of his team’s keypad? Oof – that really stinks!

        To your third paragraph: I don’t know yet whether her style will hamper or slow down our projects. People are more likely to respond to me more quickly because (a) they know me and we have a history of back-scratching (b) I’m their boss’s chief of staff. That’s why I think I may need to just give her time to learn to calibrate her communication style on her own — e-mail style is such a personal thing. And if someone’s not making egregious errors (my team member is not) I’m thinking I need to let go of my desire to train her to say things the way I would say them…

      2. Shan*

        Wow, I could never do your job! I can understand if it’s an email going out to a large number of people or someone important. But if my boss didn’t trust me to communicate effectively and insisted on checking every email, then I’d be asking why my boss wouldn’t just be sending emails instead of me. But it sounds like it’s just the way your office operates, and I’m glad it works for you.

        I really like your last paragraph’s points. If it’s not impacting her work, then it’s probably just a difference of communication style.

    3. Bostonian*

      I’ve had managers ask for drafts when there was some combination of a) me being new, b) the person being contacted being particularly important (board chair, major donor, key client) or c) the issue in question being especially sensitive. Asking for rough drafts on emails of type X or going to person Y and making it clear that it’s a short-term training thing and meant to get her in sync with how your department does certain things is probably fine. Indefinite meddling in all her communications is not – if you find that it’s necessary then there’s a bigger question of her fit for the role.

      1. Ad Astra*

        Yeah, I think it makes sense to edit select emails, on a temporary basis. And you’ll have to be transparent about why you’re doing that. If you present it as “I think you’re great, and I want to help you make these emails super effective,” it will feel like an opportunity rather than a nitpick. It’s possible your employee isn’t always sure how best to proceed, so she’s winging it.

    4. LAI*

      I agree that asking her to send you rough drafts for every email would be micromanaging. And it does sound like it might be a matter of personal preference, or it might just be that she’s new and hasn’t figured some things out yet. She might not yet fully understand the hierarchy or relationship between departments, so is erring on the side of more formality just in case – once she gets more familiar, she might adjust her style. The thing about not disclosing the most important facts could be a similar issue. If I’m emailing someone who I don’t know, I usually pad the beginning of the email with some niceties and an explanation of who I am or why I’m writing them before I get to my actual question.

    5. Shan*

      If these are mass emails and going out to a long list of people, then there’s nothing wrong with taking a quick look at it and making suggestions. I’m in charge of communications at the non-profit I work for, and my executive director always checks my mass emails for errors, but that’s because they’re going out to thousands of our members.

      But if this is just regular, day-to-day communication stuff, then asking for drafts of every email she sends is too micro-managey. You need to be able to trust your employee to properly communicate with team members without your oversight. I would talk to her first. Give her some examples of what you need, but try to stay objective and stick to the facts. I definitely think it’s worth saying something if her emails don’t present important information upfront, but if it’s the difference between signing off with “sincerely” or “warm regards,” then leave it alone.

      I think, often, it’s just a matter of personal preference. I used to be an editor of a magazine, and I can’t tell you how many times my fellow editors and I had to “agree to disagree.” Everyone has a different tone and writing style, and there’s more than one way to say the exact same thing.

    6. Artemesia*

      I would focus on this as a training opportunity not as a continuing micromanaging opportunity. I would discuss that you want email to improve and use examples of his emails edited for tone and then establish a period where you vet his emails routinely before they go out. It would be a short training period thing — maybe do it for two weeks and if he has the hang of it, then just ask for CCs for a couple more weeks and then after that just occasionally review and provide positive feedback so he knows you occasionally review.

      Requiring sign off on emails feels crazy micromanagy; establishing a training period on this less so.

    7. Lunar*

      When I first started at my job I would have appreciated some advice from email on my boss. I am pretty good with email (I think…) but it has always been a little nerve-wracking to me. With a lot of other aspects of my job a mistake can easily be corrected or if something isn’t quite right it can be edited later, but email is going directly to someone who will see it (and maybe judge me). As someone young and new to the work force I had (and still have) some imposter syndrome insecurities going on that may make my emails more formal or deferential than necessary. I wouldn’t really appreciate having to write drafts of every email but I definitely think some advice or examples would be great. Clearly you are copied on her emails or have a way of seeing them so I think it would be good to say something like “I’ve found that it works best to put all the action items in a list” or “you don’t need to be so formal with Lucinda”. Show her examples of your emails so that she can take language and formatting tips from you. And if there is an important email then ask for a draft and explain why. Telling her when an email of hers is well written is also useful and will reinforce what you are teaching.

    8. TootsNYC*

      I think coaching her through “most important facts first” and “completeness of emails” is appropriate.

      But I’m starting to get tired of people who want to tweak and fiddle with other people’s tone.

      Short of being absolutely shockingly rude, I think other people should just be willing to live with whatever formality or informality or abruptness other people do. People have a style. Roll with it. Cut them some slack–and maybe they’ll cut you some slack!

    9. catsAreCool*

      “the most important facts aren’t disclosed up front.” I’d be most concerned about this. This seems like something factual that you could talk to her about, with examples.

  49. CollegeAdmin*

    My coworker wants to set me up on a date with her son. AAMers, please list all the reasons why this is an absolutely terrible idea.

    Context: I’m new to the department and have known her less than two months. She’s probably in her early 50s; her son and I are both in our mid 20s. I currently have a boyfriend but plan on breaking up with him soon, and right now I think the fact that I have a boyfriend is the only reason she’s not pushing this super hard.

    2. Violetta*

      As for actual reasons: She’s already meddling in your personal life now, imagine if you were dating her son. Imagine if it doesn’t work out and she shuns you for it. Imagine if it does work out and you now work with your MIL who apparently doesn’t take personal boundaries too seriously.

      1. CollegeAdmin*

        Yeah, I think she’d be terrifying as a MIL. Plus, from what she’s said, her son is okay with her meddling, which would make it so much worse.

    3. afiendishthingy*

      Well a good go-to for letting her down gently would be “I’m not looking for a relationship right now”.
      You can also go with “It’s just too awkward getting set up by people I know/I want to keep my personal and professional lives separate/I’d be worried about it damaging our professional relationship if it didn’t work out”.

      And shame on her for making this awkward, your private life is none of her business, and her son probably isn’t thrilled about it either.

    4. LBK*

      “I don’t want to mix my personal life with my work life that much – I wouldn’t want to put any of the three of us in an awkward position if we went out and it didn’t work out, and then you and I had to continue working together.”

      1. Jennifer*

        Seconding this!

        On a related note, a guy that works in the same dept. as a friend of mine (we work for the same big org, different buildings/sections) now has a whopping crush on me because I spoke to him twice when I ran into him in public and we have a few interests in common. He got my work info, e-mailed me constantly for a day and a half (until I said I had to go do work because I was the only one here), hinted about asking me out but didn’t do it, and apparently was pestering my friend for details about me. I told her yesterday about this and she said “you want me to dissuade him?” Please, yes.

        I did not expect sudden crush from this dude because he’s fairly older than me and uh…I possibly thought he might have had sexual preferences elsewhere. Instead, I think he’s another Awkward Dude who jumps on the first sign of friendliness as a sign of interest. Dammit. This kind of thing is why I have very few man friends (and the ones I do are married/really not into me sexually/possibly gay)–surprise crushes because I talked to someone once turns into leading them on. ARGH.

        1. Dasha*

          OMG I know not all guys are like this BUT I had a similar situation- I spoke to one guy at work for 10 minutes once (like the weather, my commute, his commute) and he asked me out, no flirting went on during this convo, I was just being normal. Yeah, I’d really rather not mix personal and professional, especially when you’ve spoke to me for a whopping ten minutes… *scratches head* I hate that you can’t be somewhat friendly because of these situations…

    5. Charlotte Collins*

      I wouldn’t give it. That’s still enough info for a scammer to do some damage with. You are completely within your rights to say that’s private information that you only give out as needed.

      Any verification could be done through phone records if that’s an issue on their end.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        Whoops! This was supposed to be posted about the scammer who wants birth month/year info!

      2. Artemesia*

        And not only that, it is cheesy and intrusive and icky. Such a request should be met with ‘I won’t be giving out personal information.’ at the most polite.

    6. GigglyPuff*

      “I’m in a relationship right now, please stop marginalizing it. This is making me uncomfortable.”

      And seriously don’t talk about personal stuff again, even to someone who might spread it around so it gets back to her. She never has to know if you broke up with your boyfriend down the road.

    7. Cruella DaBoss*

      Oh I understand completely. Be firm and say ” I’m sorry, I am sure he’s a great guy but I do not mix my business life and my personal life.” and leave it at that. Good luck.

    8. Natalie*

      “I think the fact that I have a boyfriend is the only reason she’s not pushing this super hard.”

      I’m having a hard time getting over the fact that she’s pushing it at all since you are in a relationship. What is this lady’s deal?

        1. CollegeAdmin*

          Correct! She started this set-up attempt about two weeks after I started working here – apparently, she hated her son’s current girlfriend and basically wanted to break them up by throwing someone else (me) at him. Her son and the girlfriend have broken up as of a week or two ago, but she’s still questioning his life decisions. Apparently she thinks he needs “a smart girl” to guide his life, and that “smart girl” should be me.

          3. TootsNYC*

            she doesn’t even really know you. So yeah, shut her down pretty firmly. You don’t have to be nasty, but you can be really firm. like th ehigh school principal or something. 7

    10. Dasha*

      Maybe let her down gently, “Coworker, I’m just not all interested right now in being set up so let’s not discuss it any more but thanks so much for thinking of me!”

    11. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “Do you really want your son involved with someone who would accept a date while in a committed relationship with someone else?” might be fun to ask.

      (Although it ignores the real issue, which is that she should butt out and you won’t want to date him even if you break up with your boyfriend at some point.)

      1. CollegeAdmin*

        To be fair, she does want me to break up with my boyfriend first. (She does not know that I’m planning to end my relationship.) She keeps asking me, “Is that boyfriend of yours still in the picture?” and says, “You let me know if anything changes.”

        My (small) department is full of women in their 40s and 50s who seem to believe it’s their duty to mother me. They’ve apparently done this with three previous employees my age who have all greatly appreciated it and still allow it to happen, despite having left the department/college. This whole “date my son” thing is just the most problematic piece, and I’m not sure how to cut off the mothering without cutting them off entirely or seeming uptight/unfriendly.

        1. Tinker*

          As far as the matter of your being presently in a relationship, part of the problem might be that this person might not recognize the concept of exclusive non-marital relationships. My folks are from a background where exclusive or committed dating was not really a thing; I’m from a background where most dating relationships are considered non-trivial and a committed long-term relationship is considered to be the same as marriage. This has caused a couple clashes over my dating life, circling around scenarios that they see as “you’re soooooooo picky, why don’t you give him a chaaaaaaaaance?” and I see more like “why in the world do you think it’s okay to suggest I cheat on my boyfriend with someone I don’t even like?”

          I’m not sure entirely how to bridge this particular gap, when it exists, but it does help to realize that what they’re thinking about when they make such suggestions isn’t intended to be as unethical as it would be if someone like me said it.

        2. afiendishthingy*

          “She keeps asking me, “Is that boyfriend of yours still in the picture?” and says, “You let me know if anything changes.””

          ARGH. Is you seeming uptight/unfriendly worse than them seeming SUPER INTRUSIVE AND RUDE?

        3. AE*

          I bet those previous young employees didn’t appreciate the meddling as much as your coworkers think they did!

    12. Over educated and underemployed*

      I was interested in a coworker once and got the response “sorry but I don’t shit where I eat.” (Very casual manual labor and we were pretty young so it was not wildly inappropriate…you may not be able to use this response!)

      1. Windchime*

        I honestly hate this response. The person who is saying it is basically comparing going out with me to taking a shit. Very rude and uncomplimentary. Disgusting, actually.

        1. asteramella*

          I never thought about it that way. I use that phrase a lot with the idea that work and personal are separate–two separate physical spaces, which serve two separate functions, and which are both necessary and related but should not be intermingled. Ha.

    13. Cath in Canada*

      Have you pointed out that you’d either end up working with your mother-in-law or with your ex’s mum? Neither would sound like fun to any sane person…

    14. pony tailed wonder*

      Would this constitute sexual harassment if she is trying to pimp out her son to you/or you to her son? I am not sure but I thought I would ask.

    15. Dr. Doll*

      Good lord, you don’t need reasons why this is a bad idea! You need a script for shutting her up.

      “Thank you for thinking of me. I have a very strict personal policy not to date co-workers or family members of co-workers. Best of luck to your son.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        There you go, OP, this answer here! And please consider saying less about your personal life, this woman has boundary blindness.

        2. CollegeAdmin*

          Just a note: a couple of people have mentioned that I should say less about my personal life. I don’t say much, actually, but I was asked point-blank if I have a boyfriend before this shenanigan started. My coworkers mention their spouses and kids; this should be no different, and I hate the idea that the onus/blame should be placed on me. (Not calling you out, Not So NewReader – I’ve just noticed that it’s been a trend here lately of, “Well, don’t say anything about your personal life, that’s why your coworkers are trying to involve themselves in it.”)

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Was not saying it in the context of blaming you, I am sorry if I left that impression. What I was striving for was that she has proven herself not trust worthy.

          2. asteramella*

            As someone who has had to work jobs where I could not say anything about my personal life (LGBTQ person working in area with no LGBTQ job protections and high likelihood of my sexual orientation affecting my job prospects)–it is very hard not to say ANYTHING personal. It takes a lot of emotional energy and constant self-monitoring. Perhaps even more energy than you might use trying to deal with a situation like this.

  50. Shan*

    My first question on this board is on behalf of my sister! I’m trying to help her out but I’m stumped on a few things and would love some input. She writes:

    I graduated college and got a great job as a 2nd grade reading teacher, and I’m preparing for the first day of school next week. However, at a meeting yesterday, my boss (the principal) told me and the other 2nd grade teachers that one of us would probably have to move down to 1st grade, since there’s a surplus of first graders. The principal did not say who would get moved, but she did say we have to wait until the official student count has been taken after two weeks of school – but it’s looking extremely likely that one of us will move down to 1st grade, since we’d have to lose 20 first grade students by then to keep all teachers in 2nd grade.

    The other teachers and I were really upset, especially since we’d already set up our classrooms, had curriculum planning meetings, and met our future students. To make matters worse, the teacher who is chosen to move will be far behind the other first grade classrooms, since they have already missed all the first grade curriculum planning meetings, and will be getting all new students the third week of school.

    One of my coworkers got so upset that she went to the principal directly and asked who would get moved. The principal said it was likely to be me! I’m disappointed because I don’t want to move, but I’ll gladly do what’s best for my school. My concern is that the principal hasn’t communicated with me at all about this and I’m only hearing about her moving me through gossip/hearsay. I want to be as prepared as possible in case I need to move, and I would love to start preparing now. How can I approach this with my principal? What should I say, if anything?

    1. Kyrielle*

      Go to the principal and say, “I heard from Lucinda that it’s likely to be me who moves if someone does move, and I’m fine with that if that’s the case; can you confirm that for me?” Wait, and then if the answer is yes (or if the principal dodges answering), “Should I be meeting with the other first-grade teachers now to plan out what I will do if that move happens, since it seems very likely at this point? That way there will be as little disruption as possible for the first-graders, as I’ll be more prepared.” If she’s not absolutely sure about this one, I’d add, “Also, would I be physically relocated, or would my first-graders come to the classroom I’m in now?”

      If so, it’s going to be a chaotic and busy 3 weeks (with the second-grade duties and prepping for first grade also, plus if she might have to move classrooms figuring out what it would take to do that in one weekend) – but she’ll come off looking like a team player, organized and ready and willing, and she’ll make her own job easier if she does end up teaching first grade.

      1. Artemesia*

        Your co-worker probably assured it was you by whining and making it clear she would be a PITA if it was here. So thanks to Myrtle for throwing you under the bus.

        I think you should pre-empt now and talk to the principal about making plans to be able to do this gracefully, which means meeting with the first grade team and getting plans for the first month or so. And you should be thinking about tweaks to your classroom to fit socialization needs for a class of first graders. Remember the kids will be yanked around in this process, so you need some socialization activities to help them adjust to you, their new classroom and your rules of the road.

        Since you have been thrown under the bus by your colleague, it is probably in your future best interests to be extremely upbeat and professional. This will serve your reputation in the long haul.

        1. Shan*

          I agree, the coworker shouldn’t have gone to the principal to get the information behind everyone’s backs. There had to be a reason the principal didn’t announce who would be moving, but now everyone knows anyway because this coworker found out and told everyone. But I’m still disappointed that the principal told others who would be moving, but not the person who would actually be moved.

          1. Kyrielle*

            It’s also possible that “Lucinda” went to the principal and says “If one of us needs to move to first grade, will it be me?” and the principal said “No, it will probably be Shan’s sister because she’s the newest hire.”

            And Lucinda may have only been concerned about “I should be talking to the first grade teachers and preparing if it is going to be me.” And then when it wasn’t, may then have told your sister so that *she* wouldn’t be caught unprepared. That is, the intent could be good.

      2. Shan*

        I really like this dialogue! I was so stumped on how she should approach it with the principal since it’s hearsay, but this sounds great. She’s not excited about the move, but she’s a team player and will do what it takes for her school. Her biggest concern was getting prepared, since she missed out on all the curriculum planning/information over the past two weeks, and she already knows she will switch classrooms if she goes to a different grade.

        I’m getting the sense that her principal isn’t very organized or communicative, since she went through something similar a few weeks ago. She knew she would be teaching 2nd grade back in May, but when she started her training last week, she found out she’d be teaching the advanced “Gifted and Talented” students. This requires 30 hours of training by December. Unfortunately, there was a week long training session over the summer that she could have done to take care of those hours had she known! I guess it’s possible the principal didn’t know at that point either, but it seems odd that my sister is had drastic changes to her teaching plans twice in the first two weeks. Anyway, if she does move to first grade she won’t need to do the training, so it works out better for her.

        1. Kyrielle*

          The one risk that I can see with it is if “Lucinda” is stirring things up and doesn’t actually know, or if the principcal said “Probably Shan’s sister, but don’t say anything because we’re not sure”, Lucinda could get in trouble – and then get mad at your sister about it. That’s a fairly small risk, though, and it won’t make your sister look bad, it just may make things uncomfortable for her with Lucinda.

        2. TootsNYC*

          I like the idea of dragging all hearsay and gossip out into the open. So I agree with the idea of going to the principal and saying, “Lucinda tell sme you said this. I’ll admit I’m disappointed–it’s my first year, and I’ve done all this work to be at my very best. I was hoping it would be one of the more experience and therefore more flexible teachers. If I got this sort of switch in my third or fourth year of teaching, I’d feel so much more confident.
          “But if this is your decision, can I get more information? I’m worry about prep, being behind, etc. Do you have any plans or suggestions that can zip me forward, so I can be as prepared as possible?…”

    2. zora*

      Everyone above has given great advice about talking to the principal and being proactive, and I agree with all of it. But I also just want to throw in, as the daughter of a 1st grade teacher, if the school/teachers are any good at all, the other 1st grade teachers will jump in to help A LOT if your sister gets moved to 1st on short notice. Veteran teachers have seen this happen before, and they want every teacher to have the best chance of succeeding, so it is likely the other 1st grade teachers will be happy to literally hand over their entire lesson plan and copies of everything they are doing for the first few months, and even give tips and help getting her room set up. So, she won’t be starting from scratch and she won’t be on her own. From my experience, teachers are pretty selfless and will jump in to help wherever it’s needed. And your sister will probably catch up and be cranking along like an expert by October. ;o) Good luck to her!!

  51. Lizzy May*

    So, in a meeting this week it was annouced that I won our equivalent of Employee of the Quarter for my office. The reason I won wasn’t my work but because my new-ish manager pulled my name out of a hat, something he shared with the whole group before annoucing who had won.

    Our company takes this recogniztion very seriously, and there are employee of the Year awards company wide. Its a very big deal that counts for a lot when going after bonuses, raises, internal promotions etc. I’ve won the Quater and Year awards in the past and its means something to me.

    Am I okay to be bothered by this? I think I’m hurt that my work doesn’t merit the award outright and also upset that the recogniztion is going to come down to chance in the future. I work with good people and if someone is recognized, I’m okay with that, but I just don’t like the way everything was handled now. Do I say something?

    1. Kyrielle*

      I’d clarify with him. “When you said you drew my name out of a hat, was it totally random, or was it deciding between candidates?” Wait and hear what he says, and then consider saying something about how it was uncomfortable, and you only want an award if he feels you’ve earned it through your work – if it’s still appropriate after his response.

      If it was “there were three people who deserved the award and you were one of them, and I couldn’t decide so I drew a name,” then maybe a softer way to tell him that it didn’t come across that way, and that maybe he should find some way to recognize everyone who deserves it….

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I don’t know. I’ve found in my career I get awarded for the work I feel is mundane, and don’t get noticed for the stuff I think is great. I figure it evens out.

      But your manager totally undermined you by saying it was chance. I would pull him aside and ask why he did that and explain that it really made it seem like you didn’t contribute very much, and has hurt your esteem with your colleagues.

      1. LBK*

        Heh – I’ve found this too. Just the other day a manager gave me a gift card to thank me for putting together a report that was literally just a pivot table off some raw data, which is something I could do in my sleep. Meanwhile the macro project that took me a day to build just gets a “thanks!” email.

    3. LBK*

      Umm…I guess I don’t even understand the point of that, or at least why you would call it “employee of the quarter”. That’s definitely a title associated with merit-based awards. If they wanted to do some kind of fun drawing for a prize, fine, but don’t imply it’s for the “employee of the quarter”.

      My one thought is that it actually was semi merit-based and that those who were entered into the drawing pool had to be nominated for their work, and then the winner out of those nominees was drawn at random? Which would still be weird, but at least you’d have the satisfaction of knowing you were a finalist so your work was being recognized on some level.

      1. Lizzy May*

        He said that he put everyone’s name in. Its just so out of step with how the award is viewed company-wide. I like to win, but I don’t want to be awarded for something other than merit. There are people who have gotten very upset for not winning or because of who did win in the past so I don’t know if its some sort of move to avoid hurt feelings, but it bugs me.

        1. fposte*

          Did he say this to you privately, or was it in front of people? I’m wondering if he’s stupidly claiming that he randomly picked an employee rather than admitting he wanted to give the award to you.

            1. fposte*

              So it could be a stupid cover for a merit award, then. (I mean, it’s pretty coincidental that one of the strongest employees, who gets regularly recognized for merit, *happens* to be the one whose name was pulled.)

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Maybe he felt that everyone had a strong reason to be given the award.

              Is this out of character for him? Or is he new?

    4. Ad Astra*

      This would rub people the wrong way at my company, as we have a similar award system that we take pretty seriously. It would be nice if your manager’s manager took him aside and explained the criteria for this award, because it sounds like he doesn’t quite understand.

      At the same time, I agree with Katie the Fed that we tend to be recognized for the mundane more than the significant stuff, for whatever reason.

      1. TootsNYC*

        It would be nice if your manager’s manager took him aside and explained the criteria for this award, because it sounds like he doesn’t quite understand.

        I might even consider walkin in to someone in HR and trying to casually explain that this happened,a nd to say that I’m worried the awards system will be diluted or destroyed by this. And to say that I really value the awards i’ve won for merit, and this is so unsatisfying, and I’d hate for it to become a thing. They’re the only person I could think of who might be in a position to figure out how to address it.

        Inside, I would want to return it to him, and say, “Here’s the award back–I’m really not interesting in winning awards I don’t earn. It’s kind of demoralizing to be pulled out of a hat. I’d rather never get one, and always feel that they were given to colleagues who worked hard or were particularly smart that month.”
        But I don’t think that would be wise to actually do.

  52. Joss*

    I have a screen for an out of state job this morning and my nerves are starting to get the best of me. I’m already planning on addressing the out of state bit — I really can fly down on my own dime for interviews, my partner and I are already planning on moving and can get to them in two weeks — but man. Job searching is such a stressor and trying to do it from 1200 miles away on short notice is giving me heartburn.

  53. Elizabeth West*

    Back later to read and comment. Happily mucking about in the database again, access to which has been restored to me! Oy yoy yoy, what a mess. >_<

    But I can finally do my own entry again! HOOOORRAAAAYYYYYY!!!!

    1. Lia*

      The ability to do your own data entry is not to be underestimated! I came from a job where i had 100% control over the db to one where I have 0, and it is HARD sometimes when I find egregious errors — my favorite is when I find entries with the values “DO NOT USE” at the end. I have spent so much time dealing with workarounds and reporting issues but it’s not yet a priority for senior staff…

  54. organizations*

    Do you intervene if you feel something in another department is going to completely backfire and put us in a bad situation? One other department made a change last year in where certain information is kept and how to find it. Now our busy time is coming and there were will be many people using that system. A number of people have come to with many questions about the system (I manage an interfacing system) so I suggested that the other manager (“Oliver”) and myself should run a workshop on the system (it is all her data). Oliver thought this was a terrible idea, that the system they implemented really does not work in terms of public-interfacing, it just helps them, the dept., as a sort of inventory control, and that when people had a question about an item in that system, they should just send the users to Oliver’s dept. I really find that unacceptable, especially since one of our big issues are the enormous lines that can form in Oliver’s area. His solution was maybe to print a list of the items so people could have it available; which also sounds unacceptable because we are constantly adding and removing items (adding mostly at this time of the year) so the list would have to be printed daily, which is unlikely to be possible because of how this system is set-up. On the one hand I feel it’s not my business if this blows up in Oliver’s face because it is his system; on the other hand, this will have repercussions for our whole organization, and make all of us look bad. It’s not even that the system doesn’t work that bothers me but that Oliver really seemed to think that this matters; no system is perfect but usually there are things that can be done to make it better (yes, sometimes it takes internal work to do it!) or one can pinpoint exactly what the exceptions are so people can take that into consideration. I don’t understand why Oliver’s attitude is well it doesn’t work and I am not doing anything about it except report it to the main office that deals with the system (and knowing the larger system, I am 100% sure this is low priority issue for them). So I am wondering should I bring it up to our boss? If so, how can I bring it up in the best way so it is not Oliver is not doing his job (clearly I have to calm down a bit before I do anything!).

    1. AE*

      Yes, bring it up to the boss. Also, have a plan for how you could make things better without Oliver’s cooperation.

  55. AJay*

    Has anyone had success obtaining a UK work visa? If so, can you share the process you went through to get it and how you were able to find a company willing to sponsor you? I’m a US citizen and spent some time studying in the UK during undergrad, and I’ve always wanted to go back to live and work there if possible. I’ve been researching the work visa requirements, and am not sure where to start. While I am good at what I do and have some specialized skills, I am not in a field where there is a shortage of skilled workers (marketing & communications). Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. misspiggy*

      I’m not an expert but my understanding is that if the employer wants to get a standard work visa for you, they have to show that nobody in the UK or EU would be qualified for the job. Usually people have a better chance under this system when someone in their network really wants to employ you and creates a role more or less specifically for you. So improving your links with people whose companies have a presence in the UK and US might be useful.

    2. NoTurnover*

      I unsuccessfully tried to emigrate to the UK, and I can confirm that this is pretty much correct. Basically, you have to get a company to really want *you*. So, either hardcore networking, or working for a multinational that’s likely to transfer you there, or really specialized skills. I wish it wasn’t so hard, but it is what it is. Best of luck!

  56. Mimmy*

    On a positive note – A course that I’ve been eagerly anticipating starts this coming Thursday. It relates to higher education, a topic that I’ve had an interest in for about 10 years now. I’m trying not to get my hopes up because my first two classes were less than perfect, especially the second one. I’m just looking forward exploring the topic in depth, and to engaging with others interested in this topic, and hopefully make some connections (though I think most will be those who work directly with students, which I’m not sure if I have the aptitude anymore).

  57. Mickey Mouse*

    Regular poster here – going anonymous to ask this question.

    Anyone here have experience with Disney – either working there or just interviewing? I’m specifically looking for info for the Walt Disney Co corporate HQ in Burbank/Glendale CA. I’ve looked at Indeed & Glassdoor but I’m trying to get additional information before I interview. Thanks!

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      My experience is from the 90s when I worked for the stores, but there is definitely a Disney Company Culture. And it’s pretty much what you’d expect. Be prepared to answer who your favorite character is (really!) and definitely make sure you have a general idea of what are Disney characters/movies/products as opposed to WB. (All cast members – as they called us – are expected to have a good handle on their brand. You don’t need to be an expert, but you need to show that you are enthusiastic about working for Disney specifically.)

      Good luck! I liked working there – the standards were very high but it was actually a really fun company to work for and I feel I learned from the best in terms of customer service and retail.

    2. CA Admin*

      The only people I know who’ve worked for Disney have worked with their subsidiaries–ILM and Pixar. Pixar is great, though hectic sometimes when they’re rushing to get a movie out. From what I’ve heard, Disney doesn’t mess with them much; they’re left alone to do their thing. ILM employees, on the other hand, hate Disney because they don’t get as much autonomy as Pixar.

    3. SL*

      I know 3 people at Disney, 2 of whom have been there for 20+ years. From an outsider’s (w/connections) point of view, it seems like the type of place where once you’re in (at least from the corporate side), you’re in for life. The 3rd person I know was a former Imagineer, who now still does contracting with Disney via her own firm. Seems like a great place to build a strong network, no matter where your path takes you in the end.

    4. Anonsie*

      When I was looking at jobs there I signed up on these two fan boards, I can’t remember the name of one but the other was MiceChat. Because Disney fans are cuckoo and have every piece of Disney information a human could ever want, this was the most amazing resource. There were tons of threads on different job types, the hiring process, what they look for, what will get you hired, etc etc. It was amazing. I would suggest looking at fan communities.

    5. Sammie*

      I used to work for a guy who came out of the Disney Training Program. They are definitely all about their own methodology and data-driven-metrics . So-much-so that they “sell” their corporate training. I’ve attended a few sessions (On-Boarding and Hiring) and they are excellent!

      Hope your meeting with the Mouse goes well!

    6. Lia*

      A good friend of mine worked for them for about 10 years in the corporate offices, doing IT work. There is definitely a corporate culture, and even for those who aren’t in the parks. She did say they paid decently, had good benefits, and when she wanted to move to California (she was hired at the Florida location), they provided an internal transfer fairly quickly.

  58. HeyNonnyNonny*

    A vent that I think has come up before: Over a year ago, I applied to a position with a university. I did not get the job. This week, they started calling me and asking for donations. The caller was properly mortified when I explained my only connection to the school.

    So again, PLEASE do not get ‘donor’ names from HR or any applicant profile! Ugh.

    2. Sascha*

      Ack! That’s pretty bad. I wonder if they somehow turned off the filter for current employees – I think it’s pretty standard to hit up your own employees for donations at a university. Perhaps someone just screwed up when pulling the call list.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, I’ve got a little experience with university donor databases and one of two things probably happened — either someone loaded your email into the database and didn’t give it the correct attributes, or someone set up a bad query to pull contacts and you got caught in it (maybe they just pulled “people who haven’t given to the university in X months” and didn’t remember to specify “alumni/previous donors/parents” or something).

        My actual alma mater called me the other day despite me telling them several years ago I wanted mail or email solicitations only — I suspect they did something similar, pulling a list of previous donors but forgetting to exclude people who specified no calls.

    4. BRR*

      Ugh, as a University fundraiser I can think of a couple scenarios where this might have happened but all of them require something stupid happening.

  59. literateliz*

    OK, so it’s my first time managing a (paid) intern (I’m entry-level myself). The poor thing has been out sick a lot and obviously feels really bad about it. She was out all this week and this morning sent me an email saying “I know I can only work X hours a week, but I’m happy to come in off the clock to help out.” I’m obviously going to tell her that won’t be necessary, but do I need to say anything stronger? I feel like she’s trying to show me that she’s not slacking and cares about her work, which I appreciate, but this isn’t really the way to do it.

    1. Walton*

      I might mention something like “feel better!” or “We want you at full strength” or “Your health comes first!” and when you see her next, fill her in that it’s office policy that employees definitely take the time to recover from sickness so that no one else gets sick in the process. Say you appreciate her enthusiasm but that you completely understand and encourage her having taken that time off.

    2. T3k*

      Just assure her that it’s perfectly ok and just to keep you updated when she’s going to be out and to get better. The only other thing that may be worrying her is if she has to do a required number of hours (if she’s doing the internship through her school). I was in a similar situation where my college required 2 internships, 40 hours for 8 weeks. During my last internship, a grandparent passed away just before the start of one of those weeks, and I knew I’d miss the whole week (grieving, then the wake and funeral) so I told my supervisor about it and asked if I could make up the week by adding it on to the end and he ok’ed it.

    3. literateliz*

      Thanks all! I have been reassuring her that her health comes first, etc – my main concern this time was her offering to come in unpaid. I ended up going with this: “Coming in extra won’t be necessary. Believe me – I appreciate that you want to help out, but I already know that you’re a dedicated worker thanks to all the good work you’ve done since you started! If you have other concerns I’m happy to see if we can work something out with HR, but I do want to make sure you get paid for the work you do here and avoid running afoul of any rules.”

      1. zora*

        I just dealt with this with a student worker, he off-hand mentioned that he was willing to put in extra hours than he was getting paid for, just because he was trying to be helpful. I knew where he was coming from, and he is a great kid, but I think it is important, and helpful to the intern, to point out that is not acceptable and why as soon as possible. You are doing their supervisors at future jobs a favor, and the intern, because they won’t look dumb if they try to do something like that at a real job.

        I said something like: “Oh, that is very nice of you, I know you are just trying to be helpful. But you are an hourly worker, so you really can’t be here additional hours than those you are getting paid for. It has to do with really important things like labor laws. That’s something you just really can’t do if you are getting paid by the hour, so I wanted to let you know that for the future in case this comes up again. But you are doing great, and you’ve been really helpful. We will be fine, everything will get done, we don’t need to you work extra hours.” (since your situation is different, you could insert something about, “We all get sick sometimes, and everyone figures out how to get the work done when we can, without the sick person having to come in. It’s really okay, please just get better and we will see you when you are able to work.”)

  60. cuppa*

    I’m coming to terms with the fact that I am a bit of a control freak. :)

    I have a huge project coming up, and I am sharing being in charge with one other person. The first planning meetings are starting in late September, and I can already feel myself itching to take things over — thinking about plans, etc. I like and respect this other person very much, and so I realize that I need to reign it in, or at least involve him before I try to take everything over.
    How do you learn to work well with others when you have control issues?

    1. Annnyyymous*

      I would come up with a plan – can you handle some things, and the other person handle other things? Maybe you guys have different organizational styles that you can mesh together. I would talk to them, maybe own up to the fact that you are really excited about this project and have a lot of ideas and you want to work with them so you guys can run this project well together.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Random thoughts. One person told me that a “control freak” privately believes everything is out of control. Find evidence to show yourself that things are NOT out of control.

      Ironically, it’s the hard core control freaks that cause a lot of problems, eventually causing the project to go out of control. The very thing they were trying to prevent.

      If you feed the beastie, in years to come it can turn you into a person that you do not like.

  61. some1*

    I have a counterpart who I’m totally not on the same page as. She is in another state so our communication is 99% over email, where of course tone and intention can be hard to read. However, she is abrupt, sarcastic and rude in general in communicating with me – even when she is asking for my help! I have talked to her about it once when she was especially rude and she apologized, but it’s happened again.

    Anybody have any suggestions? Is it time to bring to my manager?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I would talk to her about it more than once. If this is a strong pattern with her, it might be hard for her to see that it’s an overall thing, vs. just one instance where you had a concern. I know you’re not her manager, but I think it’s okay to address the overall pattern, as in “Suzy, I want to talk to you about the way we communicate with each other. For me, it works best if x, y, z. Sometimes I feel like your responses to me are short or curt, and instead, I’d like….”. Also, especially since you’re not her manager, I would ask her if there is anything you can do the communicate better with her. Basically, I’m suggesting you bring this up with her as a pattern, vs. just talking to her about a specific instance.

      1. some1*

        That’s a good idea, execpt the way I’d like her to communicate basically boils down to, “Drop the attitude.” Is there a professional way to say that?

        1. Mimmy*

          I had a coworker years ago who used to actually say, “drop the attitude” when one of the other department staff would answer the phone gruffly.

          1. fposte*

            Did it work? It seems like the kind of thing that would get people’s back up more than change them. (Satisfying to say, though.)

            some1, you’re talking somebody with an entrenched habit who has only been able to enact short-term change when requested, and you’re not the boss of her. I do not really think you will be able to say anything that will change her overall. I think Ashley has some good points for identifying specifics; I think also it might help if you can frame it as something that gets her better results from you.

        2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          What’s she doing when she communicates that’s making you feel like there is an attitude? Here are some guesses, tell me what’s correct:
          You want her to be more receptive to hearing your ideas
          You want there to be less push-back when you talk about ideas
          You want there to be less sarcasm and more matter-of-fact-ness in the way you communicate with each other
          You want to be more able to read her tone in e-mails (are there specific, concrete things that she does differently than others who you feel like communicate well via e-mail?)
          When you are asked for help, you want to be approached in a way that x
          When you say x, you want her to say y instead of z
          You would like there to be more pleasantries in your e-mail communications (greetings in e-mails, a short introduction, etc.)

          On the track?

          1. some1*

            By “attitude” I mean she responds in a way she that clearly indicates that she’s irritated. An example would be that she emails me asking where to find a form on the server. I ask her, “Is it the vanilla teapot form?” (because that’s in a different spot than the chocolate form), instead of responding, “no”, she will respond, “well, since the form I’m looking at says chocolate in huge letters, I think it’s safe to say it’s not”

            1. catsAreCool*

              So she’s expecting you to know what she’s looking at when you can’t actually see her?

    2. Dasha*

      Can you try asking for phone calls instead if at all possible? Like you said, it could just be hard to read her tone through emails. Maybe you could say something like, “Hey your tone is really hard to read here, is everything OK? Did I miss something?” But alas, she may just be one of those people who aren’t very nice.

      1. Florida*

        I like this response. If you say, “Drop the attitude,” or something along those lines, that could easily put someone on the defensive even if they didn’t have an attitude before. But if you say it like Dasha suggested, you are giving the person the benefit of the doubt, which might lead to better results.

    3. Natalie*

      I’ve been on both sides of this kind of situation and IMO the best approach is to do whatever you can to drop it from you mind.

      I am a pretty terse person but I’ve had co-workers that were even terser, 0r over-explainers in a way that came across as condescending to me, or otherwise seemed rude via email. I used to get pretty peeved every time they’d email me. Eventually I realized that all I was doing was getting myself upset and damaging my opinion of Co-Worker, and I wasn’t gaining anything to offset those negatives. I decided it didn’t matter if they were trying to be mean or not – if it turned out they were, I’d still be better off ignoring it. And how would I find out, anyway?

      From the other side, as someone who’s email style can be a bit abrupt, particularly if I email with someone dozens of times a day – your co-worker probably isn’t trying to upset you. If you accuse them of having an attitude or being rude to you and their not doing anything intentionally, you’re only going to make yourself look bad. And if it somehow transpires that they *are* trying to subtly get your goat, ignoring it is the best play anyway.

  62. YWD*

    When you schedule a meeting that has only one invitee, is it not expected they will officially Accept / Decline?

    This has happened to me twice in the last two weeks. It’s annoying enough when it happens in a larger meeting but a 1-1 meeting? Obviously you’re the one I need to meet with so please respond.

    I have discovered that some people think that Accepting without sending a response (in Outlook) notifies the meeting organizer, which it doesn’t, but the two people who have done this to me recently do know so that’s not an excuse. My quest for adherence to meeting etiquette continues!

    1. HigherEd Admin*

      I have discovered that some people think that Accepting without sending a response (in Outlook) notifies the meeting organizer, which it doesn’t

      The whole point of accepting without sending a response is that it doesn’t….send a response to the organizer!

      When I was an AA, I used to deal with this all the time. I would just send prompts reminding people to respond to my meeting request. It’s really annoying, but some people just don’t pay attention. (FWIW, my boss does this to me all the time. I think he sees it populate on his calendar and doesn’t remember that he actually hasn’t replied to accept it yet. It’s so frustrating!)

      1. Jennifer*

        I thought accepting without sending a response was so as to not spam the first person with yet more e-mail.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          When it’s a meeting that a large number of people are attending, then I accept without a response, because the meeting will happen whether I’m there or not, and someone who knows how to use their calendar will just check on the attendees before the meeting. However, for a one-on-one or small-scale meeting, I think a response should be sent.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Ooh, I am sorry, I sometimes do this…I tend to accept without response if I just talked to the organizer and we’ve already confirmed. I worry that sending a response will clutter their inbox when they already know I’m coming! But now I know better. :)

    3. Sadsack*

      I was not aware that you could accept or decline without a notification going to the organizer. When you go into your meeting notice, does it show that they accepted?

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      I never accept with a response. Unless I have to give a lunch order. Once I’ve accepted you can see that on the calendar invite. I certainly don’t want one more email telling me something that I can see for myself by looking at the calendar.

      1. Arjay*

        Me too. I only send a response if I’m declining. And I get annoyed by responses to my meeting invitations. I take a “regrets only” approach.

      2. Windchime*

        If it’s a gigantic team meeting or someone is just putting their vacation notification on my calendar, then I accept without a response. But if it’s a smaller meeting or a 1:1, then I accept and send a response.

        If I need to know whether or not someone is coming to my meeting, then I look at the meeting organizer to see who has accepted. But I try not to call a lot of meetings, so maybe that’s why I’m OK doing it this way.

  63. Burkleigh*

    I have been in my current position (working as a reference librarian) for about 9 months now. I am making close to $50K/year, much higher than I expected for my first position out of grad school. However, I am already searching for a new job, as my current organization is very poorly managed, and many of my coworkers are job hunting as well (making me wonder if the salaries here are purposely high to try to retain talent longer, though if so it doesn’t seem to be working!).

    My problem is, the majority of job ads I see for which I seem to be qualified are in the $25-40K range, if they even list a salary at all. I am not even applying to positions under about $35K because I am single and supporting myself entirely on my own, and I have large student loans to pay along with all my other monthly expenses. Even though I am pretty frugal, I want to feel comfortable on my salary–it’s important for me to put money into savings, as well as have a bit of “fun money” for movies and dinners out, etc. Even at my current pay rate, I haven’t been able to put much of my salary into savings because I had to purchase furniture and other household items, plus professional clothing, when I moved here and I am still paying off those credit card bills (though they should be finally paid off in a few more months). I really don’t want to take a $10-15K/year pay cut, but feel like there is no other option if I’m going to get out of here anytime soon.

    Do any of you, librarians or otherwise, have any suggestions for how to deal with this situation? It’s frustrating and disheartening to see these low salaries, along with all the stress and cost of applying, interviewing, eventually relocating, and starting the new job once I find one. I’m willing to relocate and have applied to jobs in several states, but I want to stay in the Midwest to be close to my family and have a lower cost of living.

    1. Altoid*

      I am currently leaving my position as a campus librarian because my husband was transferred to New York City. I’m really struggling to find work that I am qualified for but pays well. I’m applying for anything I can get my hands on, but I haven’t had a single hit. I’m trying to get back into special collections and archives which is my specialization, and there are plenty of jobs out there. I’m assuming my out of state status is a real hindrance, but I hope it gets better once I’m up there in a few weeks. In the meantime, I get to look forward to a gap in my employment. Awesome. From my understanding, universities and school libraries offer higher salaries but are much more difficult to get into. You could also consider going a non-traditional route and check out listings for corporations, hospitals, law firms and other research based positions. If you crack the code, please, let us know!

      1. NYC Librarian*

        A lot of academic libraries here make extensive use of adjuncts and that might be something to tie you over but also to get a foot in the door if that’s where you want to go.

          1. NYC Librarian*

            There is also a NY Metro organization that might be a good networking place called metro dot org. They organize classes and events, most at low or no cost, and they also maintain a local job bank. And the local affiliates of the national library organizations are pretty active.

      2. Burkleigh*

        Good luck with the move and the job search! I hope that you will have better luck once you have an in-state address. I am hoping to end up with an academic library job, not just for the pay but because I really enjoy the college/university environment. But for now, I’m applying to lots of different kinds of library jobs. I applied for 100 jobs over the course of a year before getting my current job, so I’m not really getting my hopes up to actually find a new job anytime soon. But I have to keep sending out applications, just to not feel stuck, to feel like I have a chance to move on to something better.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Hmm. I’d try to stick it out, if I were in your shoes. See how you feel in six months. If you can find another $50k/year job, great, but if not, I would stay put.

      You only have 9 months post grad work experience. I’m not in the library field, but in most fields, that’s not much more appealing than a brand new grad with zero experience, many of whom are willing to just get a foot in the door at any salary. Financial stress sucks quite a bit of life out of you, too, so you might just find a $30k job and still be miserable because you’re broke. Never mind that the new job might suck, too, or that maybe some of those job-searching coworkers are part of the problem. New management could come in and things could improve. You never know. If you had said you had been there 2-3 years, I would say go ahead and look, but for now work on your budget and improving your financial situation so you have more money.

      (And just as a side note, I had a research analyst in another engineering/construction office who had an MLiS degree. You might look at some of those unconventional options for higher salaries.)

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Also wanted to add, yep, I certainly did look for a new job myself when I was 12 months out of school. I didn’t find one, because that was 2001 and 3 months later, I was suddenly extremely happy to have a job. But, I definitely understand what it’s like to be in your shoes. I worked there 5 years and was happy to leave, but now with 15 years under my belt, I can say my expectations were a little off when I was one year out of school. I still had a little bit of the special snowflake syndrome going on. Not that you do, but I did. I think it’s fairly common to think your first post-grad job sucks. Most first jobs DO suck. You don’t know as much as you will know, and you don’t get the best assignments. I truly did not like the culture of my first job, but where I thought it was a “2” at the time, I’d probably give it a solid “6.5” now.

        1. Burkleigh*

          I don’t see myself as a “special snowflake,” I know that there is a lot of competition for jobs right now, and I am willing to stick it out for the time being. I don’t plan to quit until I have a decent job offer elsewhere. I am glad that I have a job for now, so that I can afford to be picky about future job interviews/offers. Unfortunately, I don’t think there will be a change in management anytime soon. The work itself isn’t that bad, but my supervisors do not communicate well and often belittle my (and my coworkers’) ideas. Staff meetings are horrible to sit through because people are too afraid to speak up. And my probationary period was extended from 6 months to 1 year. I feel like I have to be constantly searching for a new job because (1) if I don’t I’ll get too depressed about feeling stuck in my current job and (2) I keep worrying that after my 1 year is up, I’ll be told “Goodbye, you’re too much trouble, we don’t want you anymore.”

          1. ScarletInTheLibrary*

            Your situation sounds somewhat familiar (with the exception of some details). It is not too uncommon and not surprising in our field. So the question I think you have to consider is what would you do if you take the pay cut and end up working at a place with the same issues. You have to hope you can ask the right questions to screen out these jobs. Sadly places might say they value communication etc. but the actions of the upper management suggest otherwise. That can be hard to catch before your first day.

    3. LibrarianJ*

      I think it depends heavily on your geographic area, but I recall that many of the “entry level” positions I applied to right out of grad school came in around the $40K mark (you didn’t specify what kind of library you’re in, but this was in academia in the Northeast, and fairly recent). I found that sometimes there was wiggle room for salaries at private institutions. (I’m also surprised by how many institutions don’t list salaries in job ads, including my own). The fewer higher salaries that I did see were those in slightly-less desirable areas (for example, I applied to one school that was a good institution but happened to be in rural-ish VT, and that salary was in the $60K range), so you might look for places like that. Postings for federal librarian positions seem to be some of the highest-paid, but I don’t know how common those are in your area and they can be more difficult to get. I wish I had more advice. Good luck!!

      1. Burkleigh*

        Thank you, that’s all good to know! I look at USAjobs every once in a while, but most federal librarian jobs seem to be in DC. My “dream job” is to work in an academic library; $40K sounds about right for the jobs I’ve seen, too.

    4. NYC Librarian*

      What kind of library do you work at now? I’d say corporate libraries pay the most, followed by academic, followed by public. As a hiring manager in an academic library, I’d be concerned that you left after 9 months, but that also keeps you at an entry level position. If you’d want to argue for a higher salary, then you have to be very clear in your cover letter and interview about the specific skills you bring; are you a subject specialist in a certain area? have you created special guides or created a special instruction class? created and run a new program? You could perhaps think of staying a bit longer and be very strategic in what you do in that year that would make you stand out when you go job hunting later.

      1. Burkleigh*

        I work in a public library but want to work in an academic library. I always wanted an academic job but took this job because it was my only option at the time. I have actually had 3 interviews in the past few months (though none have resulted in an offer yet), so my short stay at this job isn’t totally keeping me off employers’ radar. I do try to tailor my cover letters to specify what I can bring to the table for each individual posting.

    5. AE*

      The low salaries come with the territory, literally. The Midwest pay levels are less because the cost of living is less.

    6. BRR*

      In terms of pay, field, and location you struck the lottery. This isn’t a high paying field with plenty of options. If you don’t want to stay you’re going to have to sacrifice something.

  64. Pro Motor*

    Just got back from a chat with my boss about a role that’s opened up. Boss wants to see me move into that role, I am definitely interested in it… but Boss and I agree that I’m not quite ready for it. We talked about how I definitely *can* be ready for it in a few months, and Boss suggested I send an email to Big Boss saying as much.

    So I’ve written and deleted several drafts of the email to Big Boss, because I can’t figure out how to say “I want this job, I’m not ready now but I know I can be in a short time if I have some more training” without sounding like a weirdo.

    …Help?

    1. HigherEd Admin*

      This actually sounds like it would be better coming from your Boss to Big Boss instead. “I would love to recommend Pro Motor for this role. S/he is excellent at A and B, and could really help you accomplish C. I know you’re seeking someone with experience in X. Pro Motor doesn’t have this skill yet, but s/he and I are working together to ensure that by DATE, Pro Motor is an expert in that area.” or something.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Dear boss,
      I had a discuss this week with my manager about the possibility of my moving into the x role. X is where I’d like to go with my career long-term, and I’m excited about the possibility that there might be an opportunity for me to make that move in the short-term. I have some of the skills needed for this role [elaborate]. To be really great at it, I will need to develop my skills in other areas [elaborate]. Boss and I agree that, with boss’s help, I can learn these new skills over the next three months [and here are a couple of sentences about my plan to do that]. Regardless of whether this role turns out to be the right fit now, I wanted to let you know that I am very interested in moving in this direction, and I’m taking action now to gain the skills needed for that role in the future. If you have other ideas about how I could best prepare myself for [role], I would appreciate your input.

  65. Nerdling*

    I asked last week if anyone had experience doing bakery work on the side from home and got some great advice. I spent time this week looking up state cottage food laws, and it turns out that my state’s are really draconian – not from a food safety perspective, but from the perspective of who is allowed to do it. Only farmers are allowed to make foods at home and sell them (and they may only be sold through farmers markets). No commercial kitchen equipment needed, no health department inspections required, just Must Be a Farmer.

    As a result, I think I’m going to join a group that is trying to get the law changed to more closely reflect the laws in other states that have thriving cottage food industries, such as Michigan. They require listing ingredients and potential allergens but don’t limit who can make the food based solely on what sort of property they live on/what their occupation is.

    1. Emmie*

      May I make a suggestion? Have you looked up what it requires in your state to be a farmer? Perhaps it could be as simple as growing spices, or tomatoes in a bucket on your patio.

      1. T3k*

        Could work, unless Nerdling wants to sell outside the farmer’s market (like I know where my mom works, there’s a lady she works with that sells baked goods to fellow employees).

      2. Charlotte Collins*

        Also, there are some places where you can rent commercial kitchen space. I know there’s one in my city – anyone can rent the space out, and it’s cheaper than maintaining your own commercial kitchen space if your sales are too small scale. However, you might need to look into the food handling licensing requirements for sales. (If you don’t already have your license, I’d consider doing it as a CYA even if it’s not required.)

        We don’t really have food trucks around here, but we do have food carts. They look like little tiny houses on trailers and are also licensed as commercial kitchens. If your area allows food trucks and you have somewhere to store a “moving kitchen,” this might be something to look into, also.

        I’d be interested to know what groups are involved in changing these kinds of laws. Personally, I’m OK with buying homemade stuff from non-farmers, but I like to know that food safety is being followed.

        1. Nerdling*

          There’s no requirement that the farmers follow food safety as it stands, honestly. They have to be open to Health Department inspections, but inspections aren’t required. I would have no problems with at least a preliminary inspection; food safety is important to me and why I just had to throw away three pounds of strawberries last night.

          Because this is something I do in my spare time, I have no desire to rent space or get a food cart (I can’t imagine a food cart having the space needed to bake and decorate cakes, anyway!). That said, I’d kill for us to have food carts around here. I’m always jealous when people post about the great lunches they grabbed from one.

          1. Charlotte Collins*

            For cake decorating, you’d probably need one of those huge food trucks! But the carts are pretty amazing, and I am impressed by how much food is produced out of such a small space.

            Are you already working with a group to change the laws? This seems like something that Slow Food or a locavore group might be interested in being involved in.

            Good luck!

            1. Nerdling*

              There’s a group that’s working on it already, so I think I’m going to reach out to them. The way the law is set up now really restricts a lot of stay-at-home folks who might otherwise be able to contribute to the family income (or their personal income) for no good reason that I can come up with other than the farm lobby is really powerful here.

              Thanks!

            2. Nerdling*

              And yeah, a big cake requires big space! I did a three-tier cake as my brother and sister-in-law’s wedding present last year, and the amount of room I needed (and the muscle required to move it once it was assembled) was kind of mind-boggling!

              1. Charlotte Collins*

                I always admire the amount of art and work that goes into cake decoration. I’m a home baker, but the most decorating I do is basic frosting or a dusting of powdered sugar or cocoa powder. (If I want to be fancy, I do the doily trick.)

      3. Nerdling*

        Nope. The law is very specific: “Farmer” means a person who is a resident of Kentucky and owns or rents agricultural land pursuant to subsection (9) of KRS 132.010 or horticultural land pursuant to subsection (10) of KRS 132.010. For the purposes of Sections 2 to 5 of this Act, “farmer” also means any person who is a resident of Kentucky and has grown the primary horticultural and agronomic ingredients used in the home-based processed products which they have produced.

        So if I just wanted to sell peppers or something, that would be fine. I could sell those at the farmers market. But there’s no way to do that with cakes. We most definitely don’t live on agricultural land, so we don’t fall under the first definition. I did misread – if you own agricultural land (a farm), you can sell your goods out of your home instead of at a farmers market, but that doesn’t help most of us.

  66. Gwen*

    How do you find the motivation/energy to hustle for freelance work on top of your full time job? I really want to break into more freelance writing for both professional growth & personal budgetary reasons, but it just feels like such an endless slog right now. (I have done a major freelance project before, so it’s not the actual writing part that’s too much, it’s the hustle.)

    1. Sammie*

      Have you signed up with Outsource.com? You fill out the profile and they email projects that you can “bid” on.

      Bonne Chance!

  67. schnapps*

    Working for a large municipality: we currently can only send and receive internal emails because of some weird thing that happened when they rebooted the email servers.

    This cannot end well.

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      Has anyone tried to email from outside to see what happens when people try to email you on their end? Do they get a message? Does everything go into a big black hole of email?

      1. schnapps*

        Oh who knows. I suspect I’ll suddenly get a pile of email later today. It’ll be kind of fun if it doesn’t get resolved today because I’m on vacation for two weeks after today.

        One time when our email was down for a couple of days (not everyone, just a select few, including me), I got home and husband-type says to me, “I know why your work email hasn’t been working!”

        Apparently our IT department couldn’t figure it out so they phoned one of the contract VAR companies for help. Husband type worked at the VAR at the time and they were transferred to him (he does servers, virtualization, and networking). He fixed it in about 10 minutes over the phone.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          Ouch! Why do people not understand that not acknowledging a problem is worse customer service than letting everyone know that there’s an issue being worked on without an estimated time for a fix?

          1. schnapps*

            Well, apparently it’s back up, but my outlook is not connected to the email server. LOL. Can I go home? :)

    2. Ama*

      Ugh, sympathies — my org had a similar problem earlier this week — our server had some issue which both shut down our website and killed all external email for about 36 hours. I was luckily on vacation, but we are in the closing weeks of our grant application cycle, which means applicants were both unable to access application materials on our website or get email questions answered. My poor coworker, who was covering for me, had to field a lot of panicked phone calls. (Luckily our actual application is hosted on a third party vendor’s server, so we could just send them straight to the vendor’s website to get to most of the materials they needed.)

    3. TCO*

      The exact same thing happened to my state’s e-mail system earlier this week–I hear it was an update gone bad. It affected a few cities and counties in the area, as well. They were unable to send/receive external e-mails for about 20 hours, which was a little inconvenient since my organization works with state employees a lot. Hope yours comes back soon!

  68. Weird Interview*

    So I had the weirdest interview of my life two days ago. It was a few hour drive away, and while they were very nice it was obvious that they were all in the thick of a huge project that was due the next day. The interview was several people in a meeting room. They asked me to tell them about myself and then proceeded to talk about the company, their jobs, the community, and the role for over an hour. They didn’t ask me a single question in that time. At the end of everyone saying their piece they asked if I felt that I had any skills that would help me in the job. We had had a phone interview that covered the basics, but I expected questions since most of those people weren’t on the phone. Then I was left with the person who is in the same role I was interviewing for. As nice as he was I felt so bad because I could tell all he wanted to do was finish up his work. I think it was a case of bad timing and a lot of the higher ups being involved in a hiring process for a skillset they don’t have.

    I do still remain interested in the job, however, I kind of got the feeling being there that the salary is not going to be enough to tempt me to relocate. The ad only said competitive, but that really could mean anything in this field. I don’t want to waste time with my other questions if this isn’t the right fit. Is it okay to email at this point and ask the salary range before moving forward?

    1. fposte*

      I think it would have been fine to bring it up in the interview: “The ad said ‘competitive’–can you give me an idea of what range you’re looking at?”

      I wouldn’t do an email out of nowhere just with this question; if you haven’t done a followup, I might include it with that, but otherwise I might just wait until an interview invitation comes and then ask for the info so you both know if it’s worth making the plan.

    2. BRR*

      I would love to respond once with something like, “I’m sorry but $50K isn’t competitive. $80K is competitive to hire me, the ad said competitive and that’s what is competitive so looks like that’s my offer.”

  69. HigherEd Admin*

    No question, just a rant.

    I had a very disheartening meeting with the PTB this week. It was made clear to me that, despite all their talk about wanting change up the way we do things, they really just want to stick to the status quo. My colleagues and I presented a bunch of new ideas (that had been vetted by a committee that was representative of our whole office) and legitimately got laughed at. I know they were laughing at the ideas, but it sure felt like they were laughing at us. It felt so unsupportive. And now I feel so unmotivated to carry on with my other work here.

    In great news, I have an interview on Monday that I am very excited about. Send good vibes!

    2. Lisbonslady*

      Sending you good vibes! Especially seeing at it seems it may be time to go given what you shared…

    5. Steve G*

      What is your role with the PTB? Either way, it sounds like a sign that things are going well at your school. I think it is so ingrained in American culture to say “change, change, change, we want change, change is always better,” but then when people sit back and think about some of the changes being thrown around, they think…mmm….things actually aren’t that bad now. And then they are afraid to admit it, partially because it makes their roles or group or movement obsolete.

      1. HigherEd Admin*

        I agree 100% that change for the sake of change isn’t good. These are changes that are definitely necessary (and we’ve had countless meetings to discuss the necessity of it…with TPTB leading those meetings). I think change can also be scary because a lot of time it means taking a risk and putting yourself out there, and not everyone is comfortable with moving forward with an idea if it isn’t going to be a guaranteed success. I’m a big fan of “let’s try it and see if it works, and if it doesn’t, we’ll try something else.” I always thought my higher ups felt the same, but I guess not!

    6. Art Vandelay*

      People who laugh at ideas in business meetings should have their eyes poked out with sharp pencils.

    7. AE*

      My boss downgraded me on “innovation” in my performance evaluation last year when the lack of “innovation” is totally due to her inability or refusal to support any truly innovative ideas I have. This year I am carefully documenting instances when I got no reply or a negative reply and I will fight it if it happens again.

  70. some1*

    Is anyone else annoyed by the trend of tech support people wanting to chit chat with you like you are friends, or am I rude? It’s not that I’m too good to talk to them, but 1. I’m using minutes 2. Getting my issue fixed would make me happier than you asking me how the weather is where I am calling from.

    1. Lisbonslady*

      I kind of like it when they are a little friendly, as opposed to very silent and robotic. But if it’s too much, where it takes away from the task at hand, when I’m already annoyed… yeah, no, I don’t like that!

      some1, did you ever turn your temp position into full time? I thought awhile ago you had posted about doing that (forgive me, this may have been awhile ago)

      1. some1*

        I did! The whole thing was an episode of The Office that worked out in the end. I was only temping because I lost my job in April 2014 and I wasn’t in a financial position to wait for a permanant full time offer from somewhere else. Long story short, I’m happier at this job and I’m making 15k more than the one I lost. (I hope that doesn’t sound too braggy)

        1. Lisbonslady*

          Not braggy! Good for you! I had seen you comment here and there and had hoped everything had worked out :)

          Funny how sometimes we end up better than before, even if getting there is a challenge! ;)

          1. some1*

            I agree, it really was one of those right place, right time kind of things. There was a lot of drama involved in how I got the job that I didn’t want to write about at the time & out myself.

            1. Hlyssande*

              Right place right time is how I got my job. I was the one who answered the phone and could start that day (temp assignment).

    2. Sadsack*

      They are probably making chit chat while they are typing away trying to find a solution to your issue.

      1. some1*

        That’s not the chit chat I’m referring to, I’m referring to:

        Me: “Okay, my PC is done rebooting and I’m still not connected.”
        Them: “What do you do for a living?” not “Sorry that didn’t work. While I’m waiting for my file to open, blah, blah blah”

    3. Natalie*

      For some reason (maybe I sound old or cranky?) I get called ma’am practically every sentence. As in “OK, ma’am, thank you for doing that ma’am.” It’s weird and kind of makes me feel like I’m talking to a house elf or something.

    4. Steve G*

      Ha! Hate this trend! Usually you are stressed when you call one of those places to begin with. Couple it with someone who is clearly in another country who doesn’t seem to understand what you’re talking about anyway (what bad weather, it is 100 degrees where I am!)?….Yeah, stick to the tech issue

  71. Trixie*

    Anyone gone through pilates certification? I’m looking into various options, both local and statewide. Not the reformer program which is worth every penny of the $$$ tuition. More mat, ring, exercise ball, etc.

  72. Hey roomies!*

    I’m going on a divisional retreat next week for four days, and we have to share rooms with coworkers! This is the norm in my organization, and I really wish I had spoken up when I first started about how uncomfortable this makes me. But, I didn’t want to be a trouble maker when everyone else seemed fine with it.

    Also, it’s more tolerable if it’s just one night, but being there for three nights seems like such an undertaking… constantly having to be “on” from the moment we wake up ’til the moment we fall asleep – and even during the night. I just feel so awkward about the whole thing.

    Sigh. Any advice?

    1. Bostonian*

      Ugh. I’d look for some times when I could go off on my own – eat breakfast at the Starbucks down the street with a book, finish lunch early and go for a quick walk around the block, sit in the hotel bar or lounge area in the evening after events are wrapped up but before heading to your room, work out at the hotel gym, and that kind of thing.

      Here’s hoping you end up rooming with someone who also enjoys downtime and you can both just sit on your beds with your iPads or books or whatever so you won’t feel the need to be “on” the whole time.

      1. TCO*

        Agreed–I had to do this once, and I just made sure to go out for long walks each evening. It’s tough if your idea of relaxation is just vegging out in front of the TV, but if you can find other relaxing/rejuvenating activities you can do on your own outside of the room it will help.

      1. YaH*

        That’s really not helpful. Many people are genuinely uncomfortable with sharing so much personal information about themselves with coworkers. (Yes, I consider what kind of pajamas you wear and what toiletries you have in the bathroom to be personal information.)

        I don’t know. If I had to share a room with someone I would either not go, or pay for a room for myself.

        1. AE*

          Never doing anything that makes you uncomfortable means staying in a very tiny self-imposed bubble and never going anywhere in life. After you’ve done it once, sharing a room with a work colleague or professional acquaintaince is NOT A BIG DEAL! People need to get over themselves! Unless you have some bizarre medical condition, you are just like everyone else and you will be fine! If you are a college grad, it is assumed you have had a roommate at some point in your life. If you have a graduate degree and went to conferences as a grad student, you most likely roomed with someone. It’s really not that unusual in life, and you have nothing to fear but fear itself.

          Nobody promised you a rose garden. Do things that make you uncomfortable! Then the 2nd time you do it you won’t be uncomfortable and you may even laugh at your own baseless fears in hindsight. If other people are doing it, you can too. How do they feel showing you their brand of toothpaste or letting you see their pajamas? Exactly the same! They got over it and you can too

          1. Not So NewReader*

            hmm. What if OP does have a “bizarre medical condition”?

            I think that if OP could “just get over it”, she would not need to post the question.

            Not too many tips from me, OP. Like you I enjoy my privacy and I don’t feel I should have to explain my medical condition or whatever.

          2. BizzieLizzie*

            AE, I find your reply patronising – you maybe have not experienced a ‘worst case scenario’ in this situation, whereas I have had an experience best classified as ‘real life is stranger than fiction’ scenario (and not in a good way either).
            The point is you never really know what a stranger/casual acquaintance is capable of – and I categorise most colleagues in this way.

          3. asteramella*

            I’m wondering why your comment is so focused on how other people should do this particular activity that you are comfortable with. Presumably there are many activities you yourself would not be comfortable with and would not want to try. Nobody takes risks in every single direction all the time. We all choose when we want to take a chance and when to preserve the status quo.

  73. Karowen*

    For the first time, I’m in a position where I will be interviewing a candidate. The position we’re trying to fill is my co-worker, not my report in any official way, but I will be the person that trains them and that they work closest with. My boss wants me to interview them because I know the job (it’s all pieces that were taken off of my plate so that I could have time for higher level work) and am better able to get a sense of whether I think they can do the job. That said, I don’t know that all of the “standard” interview questions fit.

    I’ve been reading through the archives, but is there anything you all can think of that I should really be focusing on?

    1. GOG11*

      I think a question about how they learn/learning style might be good. I.e., how do you learn best?

      Questions about work style, like how do you handle/what strategies do you use to manage heavy workload, competing priorities, whatever’s relevant to the job.

      What do you need to be successful doing X type of work, which might get at things like a boss/trainer who is accessible/receptive to questions and who provides ongoing feedback or the ability to experiment and learn from my mistakes.

      I just recently revisited Alison’s e-book “How to get a Job” and that had a list of questions candidates should expect to be asked that I thought were very good. I’m not sure if that list, partially or in its entirety, is available on here or not. Example/experience-based questions can also be good.

      Good luck!!!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Even though it’s good to have some questions ready, I would actually recommend more of a conversational-style interview… just getting to know the person. I mean, of course, there are things you want to cover and directions you’d want to lead the conversation to, but the more natural the “interview,” the better (in my experience), and you’re then less likely to get canned answers that sound good.

    3. Thinking out loud*

      I’ve been interviewing for coworkers at my current/new job. Some coworkers ask “what was your best day at work?” and “what was your worst day at work?” I like those. I’ve also tried to come up with a couple of “real-life” scenarios that my coworkers have gone through (“let’s say you got a teapot back from manufacturing and it didn’t fit as much tea as you expected. What would you do?”) I think these help me to understand a person’s thought processes.

  74. Lisbonslady*

    Are hiring processes talking a lot longer now? My experience is things move quickly, quicker than I seem to be seeing now.

    I had two phone screens and an in person interview for 3 different jobs over the past two weeks (grateful!). In each instance I was told they’d be in touch for the next round, two jobs even sent me benefits info so I don’t feel they were shining me on. I know things do change, two are new positions so I’m sure that can take time and have different dynamics as well. And I know it’s August, things will take time…. I’m following up, after maybe a week or so, don’t want to seem too anxious but want to keep things warm… after following up once or twice I guess I should let it go at that point, right?

    Is everyone else dealing with longer than average hiring timelines lately? If so, how do you handle? Thanks!

    1. afiendishthingy*

      Summer is definitely very slow for hiring (and for most things). It’s really tough to coordinate everything when multiple people who need to sign off are taking vacations at different times.

      1. Lisbonslady*

        Thanks. Some have been clear on timing, I think I’m anxious to have a few things waiting at the same time.. especially since they all went pretty well so far.

        2. afiendishthingy*

          They will follow up if they are interested. And it could definitely be awhile – I think I got called back about my current job about a month after the interview, I was sure I hadn’t gotten it. And it was also in the summer. Keep applying other places, don’t bug these guys because Employer Time is so different from Jobseeker Time, but all hope is not lost.

  75. Key*

    Is it ever a good idea to tell your boss you have an interview at another company? This is my first job out of college and I’ve been here a couple years and I’m ready for a new challenge. So I started looking ages weeks ago and landed an interview with a really great company and it’d be a step up for me. (Thanks Ask a Manager!) My coworker insists I should tell my manager, but I’m not so sure. She’s very old school and takes her work here very personally because she’s been here for 40 years. I’ve heard stories about her freaking out when an employee gets a new job and even going so far as to call new supervisors and berate them for “poaching” her employees. This supervisor has made it clear that she wants to be told if we interview, but I’m worried I won’t get the job. Any ideas or experiences you could share?

    1. Sascha*

      Ehhh…for this boss, I say no. If she’s going to treat employees like that, then I don’t think she deserves to know ahead of time, even if she makes it clear she wants to know. Because it’s really your business, and not hers. However you will have to deal with the unpleasantness of saying you got a new job, and her freaking out that you didn’t tell her you were looking – but by that time, you will have a new job and it shouldn’t matter. But I totally understand if you don’t want to go through that unpleasantness!

      In answer to your question overall, it just depends on the boss – my last manager was a wonderful guy who I told right away I was looking for a new position, and he was very supportive and understood my reasons. But the director over him – nope. She was crazy and I didn’t tell her anything until I had the new job. She wasn’t happy that she didn’t know I was job searching, but she behaved civilly.

    2. MoinMoin*

      Channeling my best Allison here, if she hasn’t treated people well in the past when given that information, she has forfeited any privilege of getting that information. I say this having recently come off a job that found out I was job searching and systematically shut me out of most of my job functions, started writing me up for ‘poor attitude’ (I can’t be objective, but I don’t believe I changed my attitude and coworker feedback agreed…), before firing me for no longer fitting office culture.
      Be careful, it seems like you’re already leaning towards not saying anything and I think your instinct is correct.

      1. Lisbonslady*

        So sorry you dealt with that. I gave notice two weeks ago, without another job, I couldn’t take the toxic office anymore.

        My manager didn’t speak to me or acknowledge me the rest of the day (and she was in my office space to speak with others all day). I got a call at home that night from the staffing firm i was working through “NOT to return”.

        Ugh! Better things are around the corner for us!

        1. MoinMoin*

          Thanks, and returning the good vibes! I should have done that, I just couldn’t break through the mental block of quitting without something lined up. I should have known better and gotten out, used the sick time I instead lost, the clues were all there. I tend to kind of assume things will work out, even when I’m not actively working towards goals (i.e. thinking about eating better and having a really good plan, then being lulled into the security that with this knowledge I’ll eventually lose weight once I start on the plan, but never really actually eating better) and I need to break out of that.
          Anyway, career rut solidarity! The only way is up!

          1. Key*

            I’m sending you both good career vibes! Sorry that happened to you and thanks for taking the time to help me sort this out. I think I’ll keep this one to myself and see how it turns out.

    3. Lisbonslady*

      I don’t know. So she behaves unreasonably when she’s not told… do you think telling her will change her behavior and reaction? Do you know of someone else who has told her before leaving and she didn’t behave inappropriately?

      I would not say a thing. Just my .02. If she is unprofessional afterwards that is on her. Wish good luck with the interview, but i would consider, what if you don’t get this job? Will she treat you differently?

      I would really think it through. Best of luck moving forward!

    4. Artemesia*

      Your first mistake was telling your co-worker. This never ends well. If you know your boss doesn’t take this kind of information well then your message to her is your two week notice. But this is complicated by having an opinionated co-worker who might well give the boss a head’s up. If that happens, your response is something like ‘well an opportunity came up and of course I am taking to them about it, but I have no concrete plans to move on.’

      1. MoinMoin*

        I also had these thoughts, but didn’t want to worry the OP with my doom and gloom. But yes, Key, I’d worry more about the coworker. Perhaps if they’re concerned about getting dumped on by your extra work when you leave, make sure they know you intend on leaving professionally with as smooth a transition and as long a time period as possible. Of course, who knows what your boss will do when/if you give 2 weeks, but that coworker will know you did your best.

      2. Key*

        This is a really good point. Thank you both. So I decided to tell this coworker because we only have a three person department- my coworker, our manager and me. The position one step above my manager has been vacant for years and our ceo is really hands off. My coworker has been here longer, and is comfortable telling our manager because she openly doesn’t want to work here and honestly, they already don’t really have the best relationship. But I’m just starting out and definitely don’t want to burn any bridges. I needed the coworker to be a reference for my time here, especially if I don’t tell my boss about the interview. It’s definitely not ideal that I told her, I agree, but I thought it’d be a bit safer than telling the manager.

        1. Key*

          I should have clarified, my coworker is comfortable telling my manager if coworker has an interview. And she has in the past when she does interview, she never gets the job. It didn’t change their already sour relationship because it has been prickly for years. Whether or not she didn’t get the job because of a bad reference from our boss, I have no clue. Thanks for bearing with me!

    5. afiendishthingy*

      Ever? I’ve done it before. At LastJob it was not remotely secret that I was looking for a new job after I completed my masters and professional certification, because I was then overqualified for my position there. I would have been glad to stay if they’d had a higher level position for me to move into, but nothing was available. My bosses understood and supported me and it was no big deal. Job before that, after my supervisor mentioned he was looking for a new position I said “Well to be honest the reason I asked to leave early tomorrow is I have an interview.” No problem, he had said before I needed to have an exit strategy. So yes, it’s sometimes fine.

      But in your case? I wouldn’t. She wants to be told, but that doesn’t mean you have to tell her.

    6. Art Vandelay*

      I wouldn’t tell anyone including the supervisor and I would certainly stop chatting to Coworker about any of it.

    7. BRR*

      Your boss lost her right for you to tell her. I wouldn’t let her know you’re interviewing or even where you’re hired. I know that comes off as strange but I’d go with “They haven’t announced it there yet so I want to wait but once I’m settled in I will definitely let you know how things are going.”

  76. No name for open thread*

    My company is canceling our group health insurance. We have to buy individual policies on our own with a small allowance that doesn’t cover the premiums monthly. We are under the required number of employees to have required insurance but what a headache.

    1. Lunar*

      I would not tell her. I don’t have a lot of experience with this kind of thing, but from what you describe it doesn’t seem like she would take it well. And it is definitely safer to wait until after you have a job and are giving your notice. I think that the outcome could be worse if you tell her now and she reacts badly (treats you badly at your currently job, forces you out, contacts the people you are interviewing with (!)) than if you tell her later and she would have been cool with it (she is upset but can’t do anything because you are leaving, she contacts your new employer (they will understand why you left)).

      1. Lunar*

        Oh sorry, meant for the thread above.

        Sorry about your health insurance though. I have a similar plan with my company and it is pretty terrible (the amount I get per month is not enough to adequately cover healthcare costs).

    2. Steve G*

      Wow. IMO opinion the “Affordable Care Act” was pushed through way too quickly and didn’t adequately address work around for this. I tried to use one of those healthcare exchanges (ObamaCare sends you to the NYS website if you are in NY so it wasn’t officially Obamacare) but the absolute barebones approach for a 5’11 190lbs non-smoking 34yo male with no preexisting conditions was $389, if you made more than $2/hr. A “real” healthplan was about $510. What a scam.

      1. No name for open thread*

        We have all been saying “there’s nothing affordable about the affordable care act”. Our group plan was good and the coverage options we’ve found aren’t nearly as good and are so expensive. And I won’t even start about the high deductibles.

        1. Steve G*

          Yeah…..it was totally not what I expected. I wanted to get it to fill an unemployment gap. A bit of a side note, but…they let me get free medical care even though I earned more than their threshold this year (because I worked in Jan and Feb and got bonuses for 2014).

          Sounds great for me, but it was either a choice of $389 for crappy insurance, $550 for what I used to have, or free, crappy insurance. I felt dirty about it but took the free insurance. So now I am avoiding a penalty levied by the government by having the government pay for my insurance. When they said “insurance marketplace” I envisioned bidding and entering a price and waiting for a response. Nope. It’s all overpriced and there weren’t many options.

          Something is wrong here. I was willing to pay $250/mo. But it was either all or nothing, so I chose the free option. Ugh. This is not the way an insurance market should run!!!!

      2. asteramella*

        The NY state exchange is “officially Obamacare,” actually. The ACA allowed for states to set up their own insurance exchanges and to collaborate with the federal government in some ways on a hybrid model; if a state chose not to set up a state exchange, the federal exchange (Healthcare dot gov) would operate for residents of that state instead. NY chose to set up a state exchange. But the NY state exchange does operate under the auspices of the ACA and is subject to ACA regulations and requirements (for example, the subsidies that people with low incomes receive through state exchanges are funded with federal dollars).

      2. Steve G*

        Yup! It’s basically saying “we don’t want to have any long-term complicated ties with you.” It sends the wrong message.

    4. Honeybee*

      There’s a clause in the ACA that prohibits employers from providing employees subsidies specifically for the purpose of purchasing health insurance from individual market plans. I think that the goal of that clause was to stop employers from doing exactly what your employer is doing – canceling group health insurance and forcing the costs of health insurance back on the employee. However, I’m not sure whether it applies to all employers or only to employers over a certain size, so you’d have to check.

      1. asteramella*

        “Applicable large employers” (those with 50+ full time equivalent workers) are not allowed to do this to get out from under the shared responsibility mandate (the requirement that they offer health insurance that is affordable and that offers both minimum essential coverage and minimum value).

        For small employers that are not subject to the employer shared responsibility mandate, they can do whatever they want.

  77. MoinMoin*

    I’m currently in the Southwest looking to move to the Pacific Northwest. 2 weeks ago I found my dream job* and promptly tailored my resume and wrote the most amazing cover letter ever created in the history of MoinMoin Looks For A Job. I was then very disappointed to realize that the online application process basically just asked for a resume, which auto-filled some information about job history, and that was it. Besides the fact that this rendered my Best Cover Letter Ever useless, I worry that my resume alone doesn’t really frame my candidacy as well as it could. It outlines that I meet all requirements but doesn’t delve into the relocation aspect, among other things. So, in the space where the online application asks for a resume in plain text, I also included my cover letter. I now kind of regret this. I don’t know if it’d come off as disregarding their process, but if nothing else I worry it may muddy up whatever application algorithm they use.
    So now I’m sitting and waiting and worrying and wondering if I could or should do anything else or if this is like when you’re getting ready for a date and have too much time and start overthinking it and playing with your makeup too much and just make a mess. I’ve read a few articles online about the company** and have seen them talk about how candidates reach out to them via LinkedIn and they’re happy to direct them to the right people, which I’m considering and don’t know if that’s too much. I’ve started a LinkedIn account (overdue, I know), but don’t really know how to go about reaching out to someone. Ugh, cooler heads please weigh in.

    *In the sense that it’s where I want to be doing what I want to do and which I am qualified to do, rose-colored glasses off, I know what Allison says about dream jobs, but literally this job has infiltrated my dreams.
    **It’s Yahoo in Hillsboro, OR, for anyone with specific opinions on that.

    1. Sammie*

      You need the paid version of LinkedIn to send an email to someone? Have you joined groups associated with this organization’s industry?

      Do they use external recruiters? Can you find out who they are?

      Do you use Twitter? Can you follow them–and retweet their content–or tweet at them?

      1. MoinMoin*

        Good to know about the paid version, haven’t really joined any groups but literally I signed up yesterday so I’m just getting started. It’s a good thought though.
        I don’t know about external recruiters but I’ll try to find out.
        A little bit of twitter, another good thought.
        Thanks for the ideas!

        1. BRR*

          You can get a free premium trial which might include the email feature if you insist but I think it’s too much. You’re way too attached to this job and way over thinking this. The cover letter probably won’t hurt your chances. At this point assume your didn’t get it and move on mentally. You can’t do anything more.

          1. MoinMoin*

            Thanks, I needed to hear this from an outside source. And good to know about the free premium trial anyway!

  78. Carla*

    I work in a very friendly office but I am fairly reserved and keep to myself for the most part. I’m kind of socially awkward and not very good at small talk. When I come in the morning, I will say good morning and proceed to my desk. I’ve noticed that a lot of people will peak into other people’s offices just to chat. If I get up to go use the restroom or refill my water for instance, I have to walk by a few people’s desks. I do what I need to do and promptly return to my desk. I’m not comfortable going into people’s offices or stopping at their desks just to chat. Some people have to stop by my desk to give me things I need to do my job. Sometimes they’ll linger about for a few moments as if waiting for me to start a conversation. I’ll just smile and say thanks but that gets old. Others will attempt to make small talk but I don’t care to talk about my weekend plans or whatever it is they want to ask about that’s not work related. I don’t mind listening though if they want to tell me their adventures. There is a woman who will sometimes stop by my desk to chat. I don’t mind this but she tends to go on and on. Then I will return to my work and almost ignore her until she goes away. I’ve noticed when people come into my work area, they’ll comment and complain about how quiet it is. The other day, while I was walking by someone’s office, a woman in the office called out my name just to say hi. That was kind of weird. I try to be a pleasant person overall. If I walk by someone, I will smile and say hi. If I am at the water cooler or in the break room I might make some small talk but other than that I will return to my desk. Part of it is also that I’ve been conditioned to not talk too much while at work because I previously worked a lot in retail environments. I don’t mind small talk once in a while but all the time with the same people? So I’m wondering if I am the weird antisocial person or are they the weird ones?

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Oh, I’m pretty introverted plus private, so I feel you! I’m also regularly told that I look super intense while working and people are afraid to talk to me. So yeah, I had to work on being more ‘friendly.’ It gets easier with practice, and never underestimate the power of listening! You don’t have to share your news or personal details if you don’t want, but other people are almost always happy to have a good listener, and you can be seen as very friendly without having to be chatty yourself.

    2. Art Vandelay*

      It will help you immensely in all of life’s situations if you make an effort to make casual small talk and be open to coworkers’ chats. It’s a normal part of most office cultures.

      Someone calling out “hello” to you might have just been a friendly gesture — maybe they were trying to make you feel more included. As an extrovert, I tend to make more of an effort with very reserved people to get them to open up a bit and feel comfortable chatting with me, and/or I try harder to include them because I feel they need to be drawn out a bit.

      1. into the night*

        Oh god. People who want to “draw me out” are the worst. I try very hard to ignore them most of all, because I think they need to learn to leave me the hell alone.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Just my opinion, but I think you do have to make small talk a little more than once in a while. I had a job that I really liked. Because of being drained from “at home” stuff, I was pretty quiet. Well, no one really got to know me and I appeared standoffish or even, cold. It was a temp job. They did not bring me back. I blew it. Now, I think that having a few at work friends is an investment.

  79. Lunar*

    Happy Friday! I really need a kick in the pants to help me start applying to jobs already. I am so ready to leave mine, but never seem to get around to applying anywhere. I think part of it is just that applying to jobs is the worst, but I also worry about ending up in another job that I’m not happy at and don’t feel like I have a career direction (I’m a pretty recent grad). And the thought of having to find time to interview/actually leave my job is something I dread even though I would be so happy to move on from here. Any words of wisdom?

    1. MoinMoin*

      Think about yourself sitting down at the computer this weekend with a cup of coffee, music playing, while you leisurely update your resume and look at possible jobs online. You’re employed, you’re not in a rush. You can afford to think about the big fish, the jobs that excite you. You envision yourself in these new positions and feel happy and confident, which helps you articulate who you are and what you want all the better. Marvel at your amazing-ness as the words pour out of you! What an amazing cover letter you’ve made! What a well-developed resume! You know you’ll march into those interviews confident because you’re employed and it won’t kill you if they don’t hire you. At worst, you’ll have left a good impression and learned a little bit more about interviewing, an experience that’s always good.
      Think of yourself eating Cheetos naked on a beanbag this weekend, playing Call of Duty and getting called names by middle-schoolers. Before you know it, it’s Sunday night and you have that mild lump in your stomach, disappointed your weekend is almost over, dread about going back to work, anxious about wasted opportunities to Do Something. This can go on for months, every week you’re a little more bored, burnt out, idling. Now you’re desperate for a new job (or you get fired, depending on how long you wait or how bad the burn out is, and then really desperate) and you start applying for something, anything new for which you’re vaguely qualified. Your standards are lower, just get out of your current situation! Your mood makes it harder to focus and really write well about your strengths. You’re a little apathetic, desperate, or uncertain of yourself and it shows in your cover letter and subsequent interviews.
      I’ve done both of these and I know what I prefer. The time passes either way, and it can be hard one way or the other, so pick your hard and do it now.

    2. Ad Astra*

      For just a few days, I would try to give a couple week’s notice, but I could probably get away with just a few days’ notice, depending on my workload.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I like to give as much notice as possible just to be considerate and to make it more likely that the vacation time will be approved. I’d recommend at least two months, but even two weeks could work, depending on the culture at your workplace.

    4. SL*

      I give as much notice as possible; I’m taking 1 day off in September to extend my 9/80 weekend and I think I let my boss know at the end of July… I would aim for at least a month and a half.

  81. Annnyyymous*

    Any thoughts on when to follow-up with a company when they told you that you’d hear from them this week? I don’t want to be pushy but I have other things on the table (contracting/consulting rather than full-time at one company). I’m at a point where I am in limbo moving into that because I don’t want to make a move in case I get this full-time offer from the company I’m waiting to hear from.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I usually double whatever they give me. So if they say “We’ll get back to you within a week,” I wait two weeks to follow up. If they say “We’ll get back to you within two weeks,” I wait a month to follow up.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Unless by “I have other things on the table,” you mean you have a job offer in hand from another company, in which case you should follow up right away.

  82. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Just FYI to people who were following yesterday’s post about the forged medical note but haven’t checked the comments there today* — the OP weighed in a bunch this morning. Search for “OP HERE.”

    * Related question: Am I right in thinking lots of you read what’s there the first day but don’t check back after that? It occurred to me I’m assuming but don’t actually know, and now I’m curious.

    1. Altoid*

      I think it depends on the story! If I’m floored, I will usually check back for any updates. Most of the time, though, I just read everything in the mornings.

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I tend to only read the day of. Sometimes I will follow up on particularly interesting threads, but only rarely.

    3. Violetta*

      Ooooh reading that now.

      I generally only go back to older posts if I think there might be a reply to a comment I left (I’m in a different timezone from the majority of posters)

    4. The Other Dawn*

      It depends on the post for me. If it’s a “juicy” one, like yesterday, then I tend to check back in. Especially if I see the OP has been commenting. Or if I comment on a post I’ll check back to see if I got any replies. (Nope, I don’t use a feed reader or anything. Guess I’m a dinosaur. ;) )

    5. Kyrielle*

      I read the day-of *unless* I am especially interested/hopeful for followups, and then I check back. Or unless I’m bored the next day. ;)

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I do this, too. Also, I don’t read on weekends. And I do check for responses to my comments.

    6. Melly*

      If Im reallllly dying to hear from the OP, I’ll check back the next day occasionally to see if they chimed in!

    7. CollegeAdmin*

      I read posts the day they’re published and check the comments when I read them. If the comments are engaging or the post particularly interesting, I’ll check back in. I’m also more likely to check back in if I’ve commented myself to see if anyone replied.

      I also make use of the Random button quite frequently and generally read the comments on whatever post I land on, but I never add to them.

    9. GigglyPuff*

      Generally just check the first day, unless I’ve commented then sometimes the next day.

      But I think it would be awesome if at the bottom of posts, there was a note about where the OP posts in the comments.

    10. fposte*

      I generally don’t check back–I sometimes have a hard time dropping a subject, so I look on the date rollover as a cue to let it go.

      I do like reading older posts, though, so I often see a bunch of subsequent discussion I initially missed when it’s weeks or months later.

    11. Mimmy*

      I generally only follow threads that are of particular interest to me, sometimes beyond the first day if I’m bored. Also, if I commented, I do check back the next day or two to see if I got any replies (unless it was just a simple “good luck” or “oh that’s awful!”).

    13. Ellen*

      That’s exactly the case for me, and I really appreciate this note. I read most of the comments yesterday and eventually thought that commenters had mostly exhausted the possibilities in terms of what to say, but now that I know the OP showed up (and how to find her), I’m interested again!

    14. LBK*

      I might go back a few days if I was engaged in a particularly discussion and I wanted to see if anyone else followed up, but generally no further back than yesterday otherwise.

    15. The IT Manager*

      I really only read for a few hours after the blog posts. I figure by the time there’s 100s of comments most of the interesting stuff has been said. Due to nesting (which is good) it is hard to tell what’s the newest comment.

      I figure by day 2, there will be practically no new comments.

    16. silence covered the sky*

      Speaking only for myself, the level of interaction I might have with a given column depends on so many things that it is effectively random: How much time do I have? How much does the topic interest me? How many people have already responded? (too many and I’ll just move on)(this may not be obvious to anyone, and I don’t claim I do this 100% of the time, but I make a sincere effort to reply only when I feel I have something new to add to the discussion. But I usually lack the time or motivation to slog through 200+ replies). Do I really have anything interesting to add? (some topics just leave me cold).

      If I posted a reply, I’ll sometimes go back and see if anyone responded to it. But even that is hit-or-miss. I don’t like the email notification system on this board – I tried it initially but I got WAY too much email from it – so I don’t use it.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, the email notification is pretty overwhelming. I’d experimented a while ago with a system that would send notifications only for responses to your comments, but it broke a bunch of other things.

        1. E*

          On some forums I’ve had the option to receive updates as a group, like once a day or every x number of hours, more like a list of the posts since my post. Maybe an option?

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I think it might still be an overwhelming number. I actually get an email for every single comment left on the site and it’s a lot, even if they were coming in a digest form I think. (For me, they all go into their own folder and I sometimes just skim them or even sometimes bulk-delete if it’s a busy day; there are too many now for even me to read them all!)

    17. Kelly L.*

      I usually don’t go back the next day, unless I notice the old post suddenly has 500 more comments than it did the first day, because then I just have to know why it blew up. ;)

    18. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

      Can I add that if you do end up implementing an account/login feature for this site, it would be awesome to be able to opt-in to notifications when an OP replies in the comments. That would mean that the comment feature would need a way for the commenter to mark that she is the LW/OP#3, etc.

      (Like others, I usually don’t go back and read unless I’m still thinking about a post days later.).

      1. silence covered the sky*

        I hope that this site never goes to using an account/login system.

        Having said that: Alison, if you decide to throw more money at this site, there are a number of features you could add pretty easily (and cheaply) simply by using cookies. Like, say, user preferences: should the thread come up with comments expanded or collapsed? Each user could choose, that choice is stored as a cookie on the user’s browser. When the user brings up the web page, it comes up either expanded or collapsed, per the value of the cookie. There’s no server-side database or accounts or any of that stuff involved.

        There’s a lot of things like this, that you could do via cookies. No, I’m not looking for you to hire me to do them :)

    19. Cath in Canada*

      If the post and/or comments are interesting, I subscribe by RSS feed to receive all subsequent comments. I sometimes unsubscribe if the subsequent comments get repetitive or otherwise less interesting, but usually stay subscribed.

    20. BRR*

      I’m on the east coast and a die hard read when things are published right away person. I check at work but I rarely even check when I get home let alone the next day. I guess I always thought things dropped off.

    21. Windchime*

      That’s pretty much how I do it….I read the “day of” and then I don’t usually go back unless someone mentions there has been an update *or* if I made a lot of comments and I want to see if people have responded. I tried using one of those reader things and it didn’t make sense to me. It just seemed to be another layer between me and AAM, and I still had to sift through everything to find new stuff. (Clearly I’m only good at certain kinds of computer things. )

    22. Not So NewReader*

      I might read a previous day’s comments twice a week at most. The ones I go back to are mostly the stories that tug at my heart strings a bit. Like the coworker that lost his wife and MIL and was on his own with two kids. That one I felt I HAD to check back.
      It takes me at least two days to read the Friday forum and some weeks I give up on the second day.
      Sadly, I rely on a person putting in a comment to the effect of “did you guys see the follow up from Monday?”

  83. Altoid*

    So, I’m leaving my current position in a small university library. I’m leaving because my spouse was transferred out of state, but I really do work with wonderful people, and I am sad to leave them. While I won’t be buying gifts for my colleagues, I was wondering if I should get some small token of appreciation for my staff of five. Is that inappropriate or strange? Any thoughts?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      If you are really close with them, I wouldn’t say that it’s inappropriate for you to give them a small token. If gifting has happened in the past, it wouldn’t be out of place here. And really, if you are leaving, who cares?

    2. GOG11*

      I don’t think that would be inappropriate. I’ve enjoyed going to lunch or having lunch in as a way to say goodbye and spend time with colleagues who were leaving. Depending on your budget, that might be a nice way to say thank you. I’ve also been to more pot luck type deals and those were nice, too.

    3. Nanc*

      I think a hand written note to each would be nice. Talk about how much you enjoyed working with them and mention anything specific they did to make it a great working atmosphere. No matter how often you hear you’ve done a great job, sometimes it’s nice to have tangible evidence!

  84. drt*

    I recently applied for a job that looks really appealing to me. In the job as they said they want someone who will demonstrate their determination to get the role. I sent in my resume and cover letter, but it was through indeed which really messes with my resume format and doesn’t present my information the way I want it to be seen.
    Am I supposed to break all the hiring about following up or asking for an interview or any of those things here? I’m so nervous to be obnoxious but I don’t know else to give them that ~determination~ they are looking for?

    1. BRR*

      Ugh why are they asking this? I’m curious why you didn’t apply through the company website? I would say maybe (emphasis on maybe) this would be possibly ok to email your materials to the hiring manager. I wouldn’t go any further. Ugh bad job description.

    2. Product person*

      Well, since your resume format was messed up, I think it gives you an excuse to do this:

      1. Research on LinkedIn or their website who is the hiring manager.
      2. Try to find out or guess the hiring manager’s email address.
      3. Send him/ her a note saying that you’ve submitted your application and was hoping to get an opportunity to interview because your experience and success track record on X, Y, Z seems an excellent match for the job. Say you’re attaching again your cover letter and resume because you noticed their online system seemed to have caused some formatting issues.

      This to me would show “determination” (which seems an odd thing to ask, but whatever) without being annoying. Good luck!

  85. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

    Have many people ran into the mini ACT/SAT tests on applications? I”ve heard from a few of my recruiting friends that college board and ACT are trying to get a foot in the hiring game and that they are going around to businesses claiming they can rank applicants as silver, gold, or platinum….

    My spouse has run into this one – for a part-time, assistant, apprentice dog trainer role at Petco. He had to take a 50 question test in 10 minutes, and the questions were too hard for him to finish with a ton of analogies, etc. He also wasn’t prepared to take the test, as it literally popped up at the end of the application.

    Is this as wide spread as I am fearing it is becoming? To me it sounds like uber-lazy hiring practices, but as I business owner I would be concerned about running afoul of the ADA with a system like this. Everyone with diagnosed testing disorders, for example, would be put at a disadvantage and their reasonable test accommodations would not be met. Also as a member of the generation who had to deal with upteen different SAT variations, I also find myself thinking “Haven’t you screwed us over enough college board!!!”

    1. Retail Lifer*

      I didn’t realize these were SAT/ACT tests (I guess it’s been too long since I took the SAT), but I encounter these All. The. Time. I think I’ve taken the one your husband took for Petco several times. I’ve never finished it, either, but I’ve gotten a few calls back despite that.

      On a related note, I’ve vented here before about the math tests I keep failing. My current job required an insane math test (algebra!) despite the fact that nothing more than elementary school math is required for this position, and even then the register does it for us. The only reason I passed the test here was because it was both multiple choice and untimed, so I worked backwards to eliminate the wrong answers. I wasn’t so lucky with management applications for a party store, a pet supply store, and a couple of grocery stores, though. I failed those tests HARD. In all three of those, I passed an initial phone screen and personality test, but was suddenly taken out of the running after they had me take that test.

    2. T3k*

      I ran into one once, but I was told beforehand in a separate interview that there was going to be a test given, and how long it’d take (about an hour). It wasn’t specifically an ACT/SAT test, but still one of those mathematical/problem solving types. Granted, this place wouldn’t even look at your application if you have a GPA below a 3.25 or something like that (seriously, there was one glassdoor interview where a student talked to the CEO at his campus about applying, and one of the first things the CEO asked was what was his GPA).

      Now, I don’t know if my score took me out of the running or it was something else. I want to gravitate towards it being my portfolio not being inline with the style they were looking for, though (as they looked at that after I took the test).

      1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

        I don’t have problems with tests that a hiring manager has put together to ensure the interviewee has the base skills needed to perform well in the job. As an analyst I have taken a lot of these, but I’m always given advanced notice that this will be occurring so I can bring the tools I need to be successful.

        I do have a problem with blindly testing all applicants in a limited time with no warning – especially if the skills being tested are irrelevant. Tell me – how is understanding the relationship of head phones to music being similar to a megaphone and speaker going to come into lay while I tell a dog to sit and stay?

        1. T3k*

          Yeah, it sucks. And the test I took had no relevance towards the position I was applying, but it’s standard procedure for everyone, no matter the position, to take it. The only reason it didn’t leave me feeling annoyed about it is because I get a kick out of problem solving questions.

    4. Ad Astra*

      Ew. I did have to take the Wonderlic when I was interviewing for my current job (in marketing), which didn’t seem like a great use of my time. But it seemed quite a bit easier than the ACT. I can understand the desire to quantify things when you’re hiring, because so much of it is subjective and it can be very tough to compare candidates who have different strengths and weaknesses.

      But lots of people have trouble with academic environments and academic-style tests, and it’s not really fair to disqualify them from jobs they’d be good at because they don’t perform well on a completely unrelated test. If ACT wanted to design a test that measured relevant job skills, that would be one thing, but it sounds like they’re asking people to solve complicated word puzzles to get a job training dogs.

      You can earn a perfect 36 ACT and still be terrible with dogs. You could have a severe learning disability or even below-average intelligence and be good with dogs. They’re totally unrelated skill sets.

    5. Steve G*

      I took maybe 5 in this job hunt. I did excellent on all of them. Ironically I didn’t make it far in any the interview processes. Which made me think, if my charming personality was the obstacle, why not do the phone screen first and then find out whether I am genius after that?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Fifty questions in ten minutes. That’s one question every 12 seconds. Yeah, sounds reasonable to me- that’s the way to find quality people. NOT.

  86. Melly*

    Just wrapping up my first week at my brand new job without a break in between my last one, but I had a great sendoff and a great first week. Thanks to this community for providing such a wonderful pillar for encouragement and support!

      1. Melly*

        Thank you! Having left a semi toxic work environment to enter one that is laid back and everyone is lovely, welcoming and seems to get along is really nice!

  87. Curious*

    I work for a large government agency where people aren’t wiling to be supervisors readily. Recently, supervisor applicants were sent an email saying they’d be judged on their writing samples, an interview, and given a numerical score on their resume and you needed a minimum score to get a supervisor position. X number of candidates who made this cut would be selected. Quite a few got the minimum score, but some didn’t. The local director knew one of them because she was one the organizers of the charity donation push. She didn’t get the minimum score, and he said he’d “recommend” her.

    Claims of basis and favoritism in hiring have been floating around for a while where I work, and in a bid for transparency, the resume scores, interview ratings and the writing sample scores were all given to each applicant which showed their scores relative to others (whose names were redacted). But in this document was also a place that showed one person got a “bonus” for a detail. Presumably the person the director recommended.

    To her credit, she turned the job down. But I was wondering what other people thought of the ethics of this.

    1. Chrissi*

      The “bonus” was bonus points added to her application?

      I will say, that having applied for a federal supervisor position, the applications can be maddening for the hiring officials. The points assigned are often assigned by the HR people that don’t know the job at all, and they’ve seen people that are perfectly qualified fail to get the number of points needed to go on to the interview because they didn’t put the “right” words into the writing sample, or were too honest on the application rating their skills, or more. So, I can see people doing that if that’s in their power so that qualified people end up on the list to get interviewed.

    2. BRR*

      I might be misreading this but it sounds like a current employee referred someone for a position?

  88. Chrissi*

    I found out last week that I was being fired, which was not unexpected. We are negotiating my resignation now, which will probably take effect in two weeks (yes, I’m still having to come to work after finding out they want to get rid of me – it’s fun). This sounds terrible, but in reality I have been crazy burnt out and depressed in this job for a couple of years. I should’ve quit ages ago, but I convinced myself (thanks, depression) that no one else would want to employ me and I was a terrible worker, yada yada yada. Since I found out I’m leaving, it’s like I suddenly have all this clarity and lightness and it’s wonderful!

    So, I have bunches of savings and will get unemployment (my state is pretty liberal w/ it), so in an effort to not end up in a job I hate again, I wanted to take a time to heal a little and really research other career paths and make a very deliberate decision about what direction to take. However, I have really great friends and coworkers and they have been reaching out and have found some open jobs that they want me to apply for, that are just kind of random and I have no idea whether I’d want to do or not.

    So what do you think? I know I shouldn’t have a gap in my employment, but I just feel like I need a break so badly. I was so miserable for so long, but I also was in a job for 13 years that I just kind of fell into and want to try and make a deliberate career choice this time. Would it be stupid to not jump on these job opportunities right away?

    1. BG*

      Job searching can take so much time – I would start your search fairly soon, maybe give yourself a week or two to recoup. If you find something that fits quickly, negotiate your start date to be a month or so out if you feel you still need more time to recover.

    2. Lisbonslady*

      Sorry to hear about this. I think if you feel you need a little break you should take one. I think it can be essential in processing the feelings around the position you are leaving, lessons learned, let go of any resentments, etc and help you clarify your vision moving forward.

      As someone who has not worked anywhere for 13 years (wish I had job longevity like that on my resume) I do not think a little time off will hurt you. But if you are concerned you could always job search one or two days a week (like Monday and Thursday) so you don’t miss out, but enjoy the other days to decompress and recharge. Balance it out.

      Life is short… All the best moving forward!

    3. JMegan*

      Getting fired was honestly one of the best things that happened to me in my old job. I too was feeling burnt out and depressed, and I feel like my employer did me a favour. I also have a much better relationship with my former manager now, than I ever did when I was working for her. :) So it sounds funny, but I hope you understand what I mean when I say congratulations on your firing!

      Re the gap in employment – I don’t think a month or two will make a big difference. You’re not going to get a job on Day 1 away from your old job regardless, so you’re going to have a gap of at least a couple of weeks anyway. I would check out the jobs that your friends are suggesting, and apply for them if they seem like a really good fit (ie, would you apply for them if you had found out about them some other way?). If they don’t feel like a good fit, and you’ll be okay financially if you’re out of work for a bit, I think it’s too early for “this job or nothing.”

      It’s also worth noting that you’ll probably have lots of people sending job ads your way, and not all of them will be ones that you’ll want to apply for. So practice saying “thanks for sending this along, I’ll check it out!” without making any promises as to whether or not you’ll actually apply.

      Good luck!

      1. Chrissi*

        Thanks JMegan! This is definitely going to be for the best. To a one, every single family member and friend has said something along the lines of “congratulations” (or in my mother’s case, “thank god”). My coworkers are just upset. Which sucks for them, but is great for my self-esteem :)

        I’m really concerned about trying to get into a career field that plays to my natural strengths a bit more and in with a company that has a great culture. I figure everyone wants that, but I’m super nervous about trying to identify what those might be. But it’ll be ok. I have a tendency to focus on possible negative outcomes much more than possible positive ones, but I already feel more optimistic just knowing I won’t be in this job anymore. I’m a bit embarrassed and can’t believe I let it get to this point and didn’t quit or even look very hard for another job before. But I’m happy to be here now :)

    4. silence covered the sky*

      This is just me, but – if you really feel burnt and that you need a break, I think you should take a break. I know that ‘gaps’ are supposed to be bad, but are you talking about taking a year or more off? Or a month or three?

      If I were you, I’d try to work out some way to both check out these job opportunities that are being pushed at you and take some time to yourself to think about your life and career. There are doubtless exceptions, but in my experience job hunting does not tend to move along at hundreds of miles per hour. If these jobs are somewhat random, they might even help you in deciding for or against directions you might wish to pursue.

      Good luck with this!

    5. Ad Astra*

      I was laid off last year, but it was one of those weird situations where they forced everyone to interview for new jobs (some people were essentially interviewing for the job they already had, but others were interviewing for jobs that would be a step up or a lateral move) and then some of us got an offer and some of us didn’t. So it felt a little more like being fired than your average layoff, especially because I was an excellent fit for one of the jobs I applied for, my interview went great, and I think my clashes with one of my managers is mostly what did me in.

      Anyway, I was also incredibly burnt out and I can’t tell you how much relief I felt when they said they weren’t keeping me on. I took about six weeks before I stopped feeling exhausted all the time. I liked being able to talk openly about my job search instead of being secretive like you do when you’re already employed. People were awesome about referring me to jobs and contacts I might be interested in.

      If you can afford a break, take a break.

    6. Art Vandelay*

      If the potential jobs interest you at all, it couldn’t hurt to respond, as long as you have your materials ready for the hunt. You’ll still have some down time because it seems no one moves very quickly when hiring.

  89. Anomnomnom*

    Hi everyone!

    I received an offer from a private company that includes stock options. How does this work? what happens if I were to leave the company before it goes public?

    1. Annnyyymous*

      Congrats on the offer. It may depend on the options and the company. Do they vest over a period of time? Usually if you leave before they vest or the company goes public you would lose the options.

        1. Natalie*

          “Vesting” is your level of ownership of the stock. For example, if you’ve ever had a 401K you might have noticed your employer telling you it’s “fully vested”, which means you owned it outright from Day 1. If you had quit you would have still owned all of that stock. Sometimes stock options vest over time, so you own X% the first year, 2X% the second year, etc.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Stock options have a vesting component? I have never heard of that, but I could need to get out more.

        The stock (ownership) itself may be use vesting. But I can’t picture an option to buy as having a vesting component.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      What out that the terms of the agreement don’t let them fire you a week before the option vests and not pay you the stock.

      1. Us, Too*

        I can’t imagine too many agreements that would prevent someone from being fired a week before their options vest. It would be a crazy thing for an employer to agree to – if someone stinks at their job, the fact that they have stock options vesting “soon” shouldn’t prevent me from firing him or her. In my experience, vesting is usually a set schedule and employment is typically at will and independent of this schedule. Even if it is legal to do so, I don’t think this is something most employers would do if the employee is decent/performing employee.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think other people could do a better job explaining this- but I will give it a shot.

      A stock option is the opportunity to buy stock for a given price. It’s not the stock itself. So, in other words you still shell out money out of pocket. You have to pay the price stated on the stock option.
      I am not clear how that works on the private market. Presumably you would have to find out at your company, if you work for them.

      My husband had stock options. He could buy company stock for around $40 per share. He had several certificates detailing the option to buy. Each certificate had an expiration date- the expiration date was quite a few years after this issue date of the option. This meant he had time to watch the market and figure out when he wanted to use that option to buy.

      And this is where I learned not to be impressed with stock options. We checked the market and stock was at $42 per share. We would save two bucks. Not having a lot of extra cash (we also did IRAs and investments) we decided to let it ride. After he passed, I was worried I might have to probate his estate. Stock options were one of the things that would have to go through probate court if the owner of the option passes. So I checked the stock price again. Twenty bucks a share. I was not interested in exercising the option to buy at $40 if the actual price is $20.

      Your company may or may not ever go public. You might have other constraints with the stock options that we are not thinking of here. Overall, I vote thumbs down. I am not a fan of something that MIGHT be a big deal in the indefinite future. I think the whole thing is “iffy”. Look at what money you will actually receive when considering a job offer, is my suggestion.

  90. costume teapot*

    So this is my first “adult” job, although I have been working since I was sixteen and did several internships throughout college. I have been here since the beginning of March. I never before felt awkward asking to take days off/sick days until now, when I am actually paid for them. I recently have been maxing out my stress and capacity limits and took a whole sick day yesterday to visit the dr for an unrelated thing since I knew I would have blood drawn for testing. I cant function after having blood taken.

    Taking that day off was SO GOOD for my stress level. I feel awesome.

    Now I have a day off scheduled here and there (mostly on a Friday for a convention weekend or something) but I also need to do Adult things, like register my car and takung the cat to the vet, etc. How do I go about asking for days off for that? Is it okay to take flex time and make up the 8hrs on thr back end of the day? Is it better to just take a personal day for it? I recently took a personal day to study for an exam that my job has asked me to pass, which rather irritates me actually but I did it anyway. Is this just a work culture thing?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      You aren’t going to know until you ask. Depending on if you are exempt or non will impact the answer but I would say something like, “I need a couple hours to go do X (spell out X if you feel you need to), do I take leave in small increments, take a half day or leave or can in just make up those hours later that day/week?”

    2. the_scientist*

      This is going to be company and even manager-dependent. It sounds like you’re looking for full days off at a time, and asking for a full day of time in lieu is a pretty big ask unless you can *clearly* show that you’ve got those hours banked already, or have enough work that you can reasonably make them up. Certainly at my current job (which has excellent vacation and sick leave), it wouldn’t fly; I’d need to take a personal day or vacation day if I wanted a full or half day off- I am doing this exact thing next week to do Adult things like go to the dentist and get my eyes checked! I am however, able to leave early/come in late/ take 1-2 hours in the middle of the day for appointments; my manager is exceptionally chill about this. The exception to getting a full day off in lieu might be if I’d put in a tonne of overtime recently, and my manager gave me a day off as compensation, but I haven’t done that so I don’t know how it all works.

      TL;DR you won’t know until you ask.

    3. Ad Astra*

      You can take a personal day for any reason or no reason, as long as the timing isn’t a problem for your boss or your coworkers. That’s your time, and it’s part of your compensation.

      I suspect you worked in retail or food service (something with shifts) and are used to “asking off” and maybe providing a compelling reason for the manager to grant your request over somebody else’s. You don’t need to provide a good reason to take PTO, you just need to follow your company’s policies. (Sometimes a compelling reason like a wedding or a funeral will turn a no into a yes, but you shouldn’t run into very many no’s, especially if you’re flexible about the dates.)

      Whether it’s ok to flex your hours and make up for time will depend on your office, your role, and your boss. It’s definitely worth asking, though, especially for errands that would only take an hour or two.

    4. Kasia*

      I think you’re over thinking this. Just request a day off. You don’t have to give a reason. If they ask, just tell them you need a personal day. I used to always practice what I was going to say to my boss when I requested a day off but the truth is they really don’t care. If they ask it’s probably just out of curiosity. It’s not really any of their business why you take a day off.

      As for flex/making up hours, that’s something you would have to ask about- it will depend on your workplace policies.

    5. Larold*

      Toootally depends on your workplace and your boss. I typically take chunks of personal time for appointments (sick time if they’re doctors appointments). We can’t really flex our hours, or I would do that and save all my personal time to use as full days. Just ask your boss what your options are and how you should notify them when you want to take time off.

    6. BRR*

      It depends. Enjoy taking time off though. Don’t feel bad about it. Try taking a whole week off, it really helps recharging. I try and not fill my vacation time with too many errands, or I’ll do something like take two days and do everything one day and nothing the other.

  91. :D*

    I feel like I just had my faith restored! Just had a friendly chat with my supervisor, and the conversation just organically turned to one of my (several) problem coworkers. She was loud, aggressive, and talked too much. Just found out that when she first started she was even worse and my supervisor would actually talk to her about her noise, her not coming in on time, her defensiveness, etc. My supervisor would even get complaints from other departments about how noisy she was as they could hear her from other ends of the office. But my coworker would just burst into tears (she was in her early 20s at the time) and run to our department director every time she received a negative review. Our department director actually thought our supervisor was bullying her and told our supervisor to not be mean to her AND gave my coworker a lateral promotion so she wasn’t directly under our supervisor. Then HR made everyone take a bullying workshop and everyone knew exactly what workplace bullying was and realized our supervisor wasn’t actually bullying her, but still my department didn’t do anything about my troublesome coworker. Now, 10 years later, my coworker is still here but at least I know that she gets written up in performance reviews for these issues. I just feel happy that my sense of workplace propriety and professional behaviour is right, because after being here for so long, I start to question whether my own beliefs.

    1. Us, Too*

      This isn’t a success story from my POV. Your org has tolerated this behavior for TEN YEARS? :(

      1. :D*

        Yes, they have. And I’m happy because I feel validated. I still plan to leave this place in a year or so, but I feel good that bad behaviour is recognized as bad behaviour.

  92. not all about the $$$*

    Finally…after more than a year of searching for a new position, I finally have a new job! I’m finally getting out of my dead-end role. I’m moving to a new team within my large organization and making a little more money too.

    I’ve had a really difficult time getting out of my current role because I’m good at what I do and current team didn’t want to lose me. They even tried to block me from getting my new job but thankfully, they are honoring it because I’ve made it clear I want to move on and learn new skills.

    2. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

      Woot!! Congrats! Go celebrate this weekend :D And good for you for pushing for what you want in your career, even if it means some hardship for your current team. In a few months, they’ll be over it and you’ll be happy making more money in more fulfilling role.

  93. VolunteerCoordinatorinNOVA*

    I started a new job about 2 months ago and so far its been a good experience but I’m struggling with focusing. I came from an environment where it was super hectic all the time and I was always on the edge of burnout and each day just felt crazy. I’m now in an environment that is much calmer and a better work/life balance (which is one of the reasons I came) but now I feel like I’m struggling to feel motivated. I have some stuff to do but I just don’t feel super driven. If anyone has any advice on going from a high production job to a more low key job and how to adjust your work patterns, that would be great.

    1. Chrissi*

      Google the “Pomodoro Technique”. It’s a system of working around timers w/ timed breaks (usually 25min w/ 5 min break). You assign tasks to those time segments. I’m not bothering to give a thorough description of it because it’s just all over the internet. It might give you the little adrenaline boost (of trying to get something done by a certain time) that you need that kind of mimics your previous hectic deadlines without it stressing you out.

      1. VolunteerCoordinatorinNOVA*

        Thanks! I found an app (because of course there is an app for everything) and I’m going to try it out next week.

    2. Ad Astra*

      I can relate. I do often use the pomodoro technique, and I try to set lots of small, daily goals for myself because so many of my projects have long-term deadlines, or even no real deadline at all.

      1. W.*

        Wondering how you do this at work so no one notices? Also how do you do the 25 min break after 4 pomoderos ?

  94. ExceptionToTheRule*

    I had to fire someone for the first time this week. He’d done something serious a couple of weeks ago that got him put on probation and then this week he no called/no showed for a shift and that was the end of it. He knew he was on thin ice & I’d been extremely clear about what his behavior needed to be, but he just couldn’t do it and that was it.

    1. fposte*

      It’s the right thing to do, and it’ll feel even righter when you get somebody really solid in his place.

      1. ExceptionToTheRule*

        It was the right thing. I thought I’d feel worse than I do, but once he was gone stories started coming out of the woodwork about stuff that had gotten pulled that nobody ever said anything about and it just really confirmed in my gut that I’d made the right decision.

        We had hired a temp to fill in for someone this summer and that person has been working out extremely well, so we made him permanent.

    2. Artemesia*

      it is so hard to fire someone; I have had to do it a few times and hated it. I think it is important to give people guidance to improve but patience can’t be endless. And with the number of qualified people looking for work, I have no patience for people who don’t make the effort when they do get feedback. Knowing you did the right thing doesn’t take the sting out of it though.

  95. GigglyPuff*

    Ugh I’m going slowly crazy. My first real work issue.

    I got assigned a really big project with a very firm deadline (my first with a real inflexible deadline). Basically it’s a project going up in a museum to showcase a topic related to what we do. Great right! Except the head of my department is the only one who really knows anything about this subject (relating to our place of work, I know the subject but not work place specifics).

    So in the beginning I met with her and my manager, we laid out what was needed, who would do what, and created deadlines for certain points in the project. Well, since the dept head knows about the subject, she was supposed to take my research on the general subject and make it into a specific script I would use.

    It’s now a week after the deadline where I was supposed to have the rough draft of everything done, she never did a formal script and it took forever to get even an outline out of her, so I could write one. Now two weeks after I sent her my draft, I can’t do anything until I get her to look it over and approve it. Turns out she was out all week. I had sent her an email on Monday, basically asking for the formal script asap, but her out of office reply wasn’t turned on until Wednesday, so I didn’t know she wasn’t here. AHHHH. Plus this will be created in software I’ve never used, so I’ve been trying to teach myself. Oh and I go on vacation in two weeks and really wanted the rough draft done so I wouldn’t have to think about it, but unless she gets me a finalized script on Monday no idea if I can finish in that timeline.

    UGH. Finally sent an email giving my manager a head’s up of what is going on, so hopefully she’ll spur the dept head on, on helping me with this, because there is no way I can do it without dept head’s help. It would just be an awful finished product, but I really want to look really professional.

    I know I probably waited to long to give my manager a head’s up, but I’ve only been here 7 months and the dept head is so much more senior. I’m still feeling my way around on how forceful I should be when needing to get my stuff done, when I know the dept head probably has ten times more amount of work than me.

    TL;DR: First time major work issues suck, even when you know they aren’t your fault, you still feel like a failure. Especially because I am a procrastinator and pretty sure my manager knows that. But on big important, firm deadline projects I never have been, especially when other ppl are working with you. But since this is the first project like this I’ve had, my manager wouldn’t know that and now I probably still look like a slacker.

    1. Artemesia*

      You don’t want to hear this but you need to have plan B and not count on this person coming through.

      I once ran the substantive part of an important event for which the boss was in charge of marketing and recruitment for the event. It involved bringing in workplace teams for a 3 week program, so not easy to fill although a potentially very valuable program. One day someone asked me how the recruiting was going and I said ‘Oh that is Larold’s job and he is taking care of that.’ And she said ‘You know Larold never gets diddly done and this thing will fail if he doesn’t do this –you better figure out how to get it done.’ And I talked with Larold, realized he hadn’t and wasn’t likely to get it done and so managed it myself. We barely got the critical mass needed.

      If it must be done by X as in your case (and mine in that project) and the person in charge of what you need is not reliable you MUST have a work around to at least satisfice on delivering something. You might talk to the director about alternative resources to get this done because it doesn’t sound like the person you are counting on cares about this and it will be your neck.

  96. Beancounter in Texas*

    I just wanted to drop some jaws over a conversation I had with my boss last week. I’m prone to sinus headaches, especially when the weather changes, as it did for us last week. So I was out Monday not feeling well (headache, sour stomach), I came in Tuesday and Wednesday with a headache (took drugs too), but left Wednesday afternoon as it was getting worse. I rested and felt better. On Thursday morning, I thanked my boss for letting me rest. He asked whether my departure Wednesday was related to Monday. I answered yes.

    [in sympathetic voice] “Beancounter, sometimes headaches can be a symptom of a larger problem. Have you seen your doctor about the headache?”
    “No, I haven’t.”
    “Well, your health is very important. You really should see a doctor about this and make sure nothing else is going on.”
    “Yes, I will.”
    “Yes, please do. Go see your doctor, but do it on your own time, outside of working hours.”

    3. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Bosses can say the most strange things and can also be pretty drunk with power and thus thoughtless. I once had a conversation that went like this.

      Boss’ Boss: How did [event] make you feel?
      Me: Honestly? I felt dismissed.
      Boss’ Boss: It is ridiculous that you feel that way and if you truly felt that way you are going to have a very difficult time at this company and in life.

      O_o You asked me how I felt?

      The “event” in question happened months ago. My boss had a habit of simply walking away while I was talking to him, and we discussed it and I asked if he could just give me an indication that he needed to do something else. I told him it was a little awkward for me, and that I don’t think he was trying to come across this way, but that it gave me the sense that he didn’t care what we were discussing. He thanked me, said it wasn’t his goal to come across that way at all and it wasn’t a problem moving forward. I guess he was upset enough to go to his boss though? Because out of nowhere my boss’ boss brought up the event which had happened several months ago and the dialogue above ensued.

      Yeah bosses can be weird!

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        I’ve encountered that in other people too. I usually find that what people are seeking when they behave this way is confirmation of their own feelings, that someone else felt the same way and therefore it is acceptable to feel this way, and when someone doesn’t concur and confirm, they become defensive.

    4. Chrissi*

      That sounds just like my (soon-to-be former) manager. Also, to her, unless you went to a doctor, your sick leave was you pretending. She didn’t understand that I’ve had migraines my whole life, and there’s no point to go each time, nor do you go to the doctor on the first day of a cold, cough, etc. (or even the first week).

      1. Ad Astra*

        Did some people just grow up going to the doctor for every little illness? I will never understand people who expect me to pay a $30 copay for someone with a medical degree to tell me I need rest and fluids. Although I see doctors pretty often for mental and reproductive healthcare, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve needed medical attention for illness or injury.

        1. Not Karen*

          Ditto. Only once in my life have I gone to the doctor when I was sick and have them tell me something I didn’t already know.

    5. Ad Astra*

      Do you work weekdays 8-5? When, exactly, would you be able to see a doctor outside work hours? It’s not like you can just pop into an urgent care clinic and say “I have this ongoing problem. Will you please treat me for it?” Dude will look you up and down and then refer you to a doctor who takes appointments between 8 and 5.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        Exactly. My primary has office hours only during my working hours (strictly 8 to5).

        The root issue is that The Boss is a workaholic (at age 77) and he holds us to the same work ethic, except when the exception to the rule is for him. Naturally, he’s The Owner, so its his perogative, but the way he reacts to routine announcements of missing work for medical appointments, requests for time off for funerals (you have to argue why this person was important to you if they aren’t your parents or sibling), and really any requests for taking time off that isn’t for vacation (and he will ask the purpose of taking time off), makes us feel guilty for needing time during the day. It’s rather demoralizing, but I’m not surprised, since basic psychology eludes him.

        I just thought y’all would get a kick out of that last statement. For the briefest moment, I thought he genuinely cared. LOL

        2. Not So NewReader*

          A friend had a boss who moved up from the city. Boss could not understand AT ALL, why people took time off from work for a doctor appointment. My friend very patiently explained because around here doctors are only available 9-5. It was probably several years of everyone saying the same thing, that it finally sunk in.

    6. pony tailed wonder*

      I think when people who aren’t a doctor try to play one at work really let their crazy out in conversations. I have noticed that talking about a health problem with co-workers is a sure fire way to see who is on the ball socially and who is not.

    7. schnapps*

      Meh. He’s almost an octogenarian. Probably has a very strong work ethic and nothing else much in his life (if my dad is any example). Doctor’s appointments were done on your own time in his day, you young whippersnapper :)

      I feel your pain on the sinus headaches/body aches/sour stomach related to weather changes. For me it’s rapidly dropping barometric pressure and it just hurts all over. I just want to stay in bed when that happens (and I live in the PNW so that doesn’t help much).

  97. LizB*

    Staff training started for my new job this week, and I love it. My coworkers are great, I’m really happy with the way the program is structured, I’m already learning tons of new things… I’m pretty much in heaven. I’m trying not to ask TOO many questions or talk too much so I don’t come off as a know-it-all. We haven’t met our direct manager yet, but I hear good things.

    The one downside so far is that two of the coworkers we started with on Monday are no longer training with us because some part of the (pretty extensive) background check didn’t go through. :( Now we’re hoping we can hire replacements in the next few weeks before the program opens. If anyone in the Twin Cities MN area is looking for an entry-level human services/mental health care position, let me know…

  98. Amber Rose*

    I made a thing for work, a little animated Web banner. My boss really liked it. Now I have this weird new feeling. I think it’s… job satisfaction.

    So bizarre. =)

  99. Lillian McGee*

    Today I found out that the person in my job before me had been delegating out a huge amount of his work to either the receptionist or me (in my old position). So essentially I am now doing the job of 2.5 people (we no longer have a receptionist), and here’s the kicker: I have run out of things to do today! (I was going through Predecessor’s old emails and cleaning them up, which is how I pieced this together)

    I’m kind of stunned and maybe a little bitter…? He was paid much more than I am being paid. All kinds of vendor dealings, supply orders, organizing, and other admin things were completely handled by the receptionist when he was here. What the heck did he even do all day!? Am I just that efficient that I can do all these things with time to spare? Yeesh.

    1. Steve G*

      I can’t answer what he did all day, but whenever I hear about people delegating parts of their jobs and not getting in trouble, I think of Christina Applegate from Don’t Tell Mom the Babysitter’s Dead:-)

      1. Lillian McGee*

        No. Staff cuts are likely in the budget for next year. I can ask to work four day weeks, but my pay would go down proportionately. It’s something I’m considering, actually, once my wedding is done and paid for!

        I might also consider moving on, but I just started this position… maybe in another 6 months.

  100. Steve G*

    I was offered a job yesterday in a very closely related field to my niche field yesterday! Waiting for offer letter (the owner called yesterday with a verbal offer).

    The pay is less than I was making but is a solid middle class job, which I am grateful for in this economy.

    Thank you in advance for the discussions on how to handle overstepping coworkers and weird work situations, it sounds like such a crazy mix of experience levels (it will be the first job where there will also be entry-level people w/o college degrees in the same office I’ve had since I can’t remember) so I am sure there will be “interesting” discussions going on there!

    1. fposte*

      Fingers crossed for you, Steve–I know you’ve been looking for the right spot for a bit now, and it would be great just to be able to stop looking.

      1. Steve G*

        Well, now there is one less person on the market, that should help narrow the competition:-)

  101. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I have a question that’s about work, but someone else’s work: delivery people.

    In the last few months (and never once before that), I’ve noticed a trend where if we ordered delivery food, the delivery person calls from their cell phone when they arrive, instead of ringing the doorbell. I answer the phone, and they say, “I’m outside with your food.” The first few times, I figured I must not have heard the bell, and I even asked, “Oh, did we not hear the doorbell?” But each time they said, “No, I didn’t ring it.” So there’s this weird trend of them calling instead.

    I was talking about this with my husband last night, and he said he thinks it’s a security thing — that if they call to confirm you’re at home, it’s less likely to be a set-up where they get jumped or mugged while waiting at your door.

    I think it’s something about the changing use of technology, but can’t pinpoint exactly what or why.

    Thoughts?

    1. Sascha*

      Maybe it also has something to do with people complaining that the doorbell woke up their baby or a day sleeper in the house? I have both, as well as some rowdy hounds, so it would be awesome if the delivery person called instead of ringing the doorbell.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Oh that’s an interesting theory! I thought it was maybe to save time – they call you when they’re still in the car and they don’t have to wait for you to put pants on or lock the dog up or whatever delays you from answering the door. I appreciate the call because my dog goes batshit crazy when someone knocks on the door.

      Another theory – it gives a verifiable record to their own management of what time they arrived at the house.

      2. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        Ok, if you’re gonna call for a pizza and then proceed to wander around the house without pants right up until they arrive…well, you’ve got some issues.

    3. The Other Dawn*

      I’ve noticed that, too. Although for some reason I’ve only seen it with Chinese delivery. Never pizza delivery. I think your husband makes a good point; I hadn’t thought of that. It could be that the person has a lot of deliveries and doesn’t want to wait around while someone grabs their money, answers the door, etc. Kind of like when you go to a drive-thru and it says to have everything ready when you get to the window. Maybe it shaves a little time off for the driver. Could be they want to make sure the customer secures their dog. I’m thinking delivery drivers might be prime targets for excited, or agressive, animals.

      1. AnotherFed*

        Especially if they come bearing food – I have one dog that would never leave a visitor standing if she knew some of them carried pizza!

      2. BRR*

        The drive-thru one always gets me especially when there’s nobody in line. Yeah I’ll pull around the corner while trying to get my wallet out.

    4. BeeBee*

      I guess it’s also a way of tracking whether they did show up or not. So a person can’t tell you never came, they can prove it by call history.

    5. Meg Murry*

      Maybe they’ve just experienced trying to ring the doorbell only to find that it didn’t work, or that they couldn’t figure out which buzzer to push (because the order just says “Alison” but the buzzer only says “A.Green”) and they have determined it’s more efficient to just call first, rather than go through the cycle of ring->stand there->ring again->call ?

      My pet peeve related to that is when service people are supposed to call 1/2 hour before they come to my house and they call and say “I’m in your driveway!” Well, that’s nice, I’ll be there in 20 minutes like we agreed on.

      And a final pet peeve – when I lived in an apartment building where people rarely answered the buzzer during the day, we caught the UPS guy coming up to the door with only the “sorry we missed you” slip and sticking it on the door, not even trying to bring the package out of the truck or even ring the buzzer when we made a point of staying home and waiting for him. It reached the point where I would wait on the front steps with my laptop most of the day if I was expecting an important package, because otherwise it wound up out in suburbia at the UPS warehouse, which I had no way of getting to – super annoying.

      1. Retail Lifer*

        I’ve watched them, through the window, walk up, not even knock, and stick the “sorry we missed you” thing on the door and walk away. Then I run outside and let them know that if they had knocked, I would have gladly come to the door.

        1. cuppa*

          UPS likes to do this to us, too. One time, we were home but in the kitchen, which doesn’t have a view of the front yard, and we found the sticker on the door later. No knock, no bell, no nothing.
          One time I did see the guy come and answered the door before he made it there, and I got to watch him march back to the truck to actually get the package. That was pretty satisfying.

          1. Ineloquent*

            It’s things like this that make me glad that I have a super high level UPS manager’s (I think it’s a VP) phone number. I’ve got similar numbers for FedEx and DHL as well. I made them ransack a huge distribution center multiple times once when they lost a envelope that I had sent, which would have had a multimillion dollar impact on my business. They found the thing either under a conveyor belt tread or stuck to the bottom of a truck, judging by the filthy condition of the papers when they reached their destination.

            1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

              My mom ordered a dress once and had it shipped via some courier instead of Canada Post because she needed it ASAP. When she got it the package (bag) was all dirty and it was ripped and taped. You could it tell it happened after the courier picked it up (I think the tape was over their sticker or something). When she opened it, the dress was dirty and the fabric was stretched where the package ripped. Thanks to that, she had to return it and go buy a dress on really short notice.

          2. blackcat*

            I had one worse happen to me frequently in my old apartment: no sticker. Online tracking would say “delivery attempted” and I wouldn’t even get the damn sticker to sign. Their customer service was useless… asking around, it was a problem for quite a few neighbors (in the building and in neighboring buildings).

            I stopped ordering anything that would come UPS, and complained repeatedly to Amazon (and, to their credit, after my 2 complaints to Amazon, everything they sent to that building came via FedEx. My upstairs neighbors were very happy when their packages started showing up!).

            I really think it’s just some sites are very poorly supervised. I moved ~2 miles away, but just in range of a different UPS facility, and there have been 0 problems since.

            1. ScarletInTheLibrary*

              The really annoying thing that happens to is that UPS and USPS both will drop off packages at the apartment office instead of going to our building. The apartment office has decided to no longer put a note in the mail box for some unknown reason. The apartment office people also let anyone go to the designated area and grab “their” package. Needless to say, I hate ordering something that will go through the post.

        2. Sara*

          I’m so glad I’m not the only one who has experienced this! At least half a dozen times in the past year, UPS has come and left a “Sorry We Missed You!” note on my door, with a time stamp indicating that I was home when they came! I was really trying to figure out how on earth I’m always in the shower/using the blender/listening to loud rock music/doing other noisy activities at the *exact* time that UPS shows up.

        3. Ad Astra*

          Most of the time, UPS drops my package on the porch, knocks on the door, and immediately walks back to the truck without waiting for someone to answer the door. I would be very cranky if I got a “Sorry we missed you” slip because someone was too lazy knock.

          1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

            I hate that shit. Canada Post is bad for that. (Probably not just them.) They ring the doorbell and by the time you go to answer it there’s a package sitting in between the two doors. Or they leave it on the doorstep. Where anyone can see it. I’ve heard stories of people getting their stuff stolen because the delivery morons leave packages in plain view. When you order stuff there isn’t always an option to require a signature. Or what if it rains and the box gets all wet? Have some respect for other people’s property.

          2. Windchime*

            This is how UPS does it here. They leave the package on the porch, ring the bell, and by the time I get down the stairs they are GONE. But at least they leave the package and not a note, and most of them will tuck the package in a place that’s out-of-sight of the street (but I can see it when I open the door).

            I have a doozy of a delivery story that I will share on the weekend open thread.

        4. Meadowsweet*

          They don’t even stick the ‘sorry we missed you’ up where I am!
          If it doesn’t come with a post option I don’t order it anymore…

        5. silence covered the sky*

          For the sake of fairness, I’d like to comment that my UPS guy (his name is Carlos) is awesome and never does any flaky stuff like y’all are describing.

          (in fact, it’s the USPS guy who tends to be a flake like this)

      2. AnotherAlison*

        I wanted to weigh in from the service guy’s perspective on your comment. My husband is an electrician, and he’s often got 2-4 jobs in one day. He would call to say he’s there, partly because it would be creepy to sit in your driveway for an hour (imagine if you were inside and saw him just sitting there) and partly because he would rather get through his day faster if he can. He *does not expect* you to be there early and isn’t pissed off if you aren’t, but a lot of times it is mutually beneficial if he’s available early and you’re available early to just start working.

      3. Chrissi*

        It amazes me how confused delivery people get by which buzzer to push on our door. There are 6 freaking apartments – 3 on one side and 3 on the other. It is not that hard!

        I live in Chicago and order from GrubHub more than is healthy, and I have noticed this trend of calling instead of buzzing as well. I don’t really mind it, but sometimes I miss the call because the phone is on vibrate, whereas my buzzer is an old fashioned bell w/ hammer and would wake the dead.

    6. Bekx*

      I know it’s not winter now, but staying in your car would keep you nice and warm and not standing out in negative degree weather!

      1. Ad Astra*

        Yeah, but I’m gonna be pretty cranky if I pay a delivery fee and still have to walk outside in the cold and snow for my pizza. I tip extra in bad weather, but you still have to come to the door.

        1. Windchime*

          Me, too. I call for a pizza precisely because I do not want to go and fetch my own supper. I am usually in my PJs or sweats by the time the pizza delivery comes. Fortunately, the place I order from always rings the doorbell. I’m in a single-family house so there is no confusion about which bell to ring. And I always tip $5-6, despite the fact that the pizza place is about a 6 minute drive from my house, so I think that gets me good service.

    7. Curious*

      There are a number of group houses in the DC area where a lot of people live. In my last one, if you rang the doorbell, I wouldn’t have heard it in my room.

      1. Ellen*

        I like this hypothesis. I’ve never ordered delivery food outside of an apartment building context, in which buzzers often have the wrong name or don’t work and so have experienced the cell phone as normal. This group house idea explains how a similar thing could happen in a single-family home. Plus, thinking more, I encountered a number of apparently row- or stand-alone homes in DC that were actually a bunch of apartments (or single-family above ground with an English Basement). It might be tricky for a delivery person to know which door to go to in that instance (or to know if any given house contained multiple units).

      2. GigglyPuff*

        When I was in grad school I lived in a converted house with six different apartments and the front door was locked after 6pm. I lived upstairs and the person who lived next to the front door was an elderly woman, and the last time I ordered pizza they banged for like 5 mins before calling me, and I felt really bad for her because it was late. So the next time I asked them to specifically call me instead of knocking…yeah got a really nasty little cartoon drawing on my pizza box…and they still spent 3-5 mins banging on the front door before I heard them.

    8. Lee*

      Oh I don’t know if this is connected but it could be a personnel security thing? Especially if you’ve only very recently noticed it and you’re in the D.C. area — there was that awful 4-person murder recently where the killer ordered a Domino’s pizza. The killer ordered it and had it delivered to the victims’ home, while the victims were still alive. (DNA was pulled from crust and used to identify the killer.)

    9. Lily in NYC*

      I’ve noticed that trend but not with food delivery (in my case). I wonder if it’s because so many people don’t answer their door? I often see food delivery guys standing outside an apartment building looking stressed because no one is answering the buzzer.
      .
      I’ve been buying a lot of furniture lately and the delivery people always call my cell instead of buzzing the intercom. Last weekend I got yelled at because the guy called my work number when he arrived and was furious that I didn’t answer (and he was an hour early!). I have no idea how he even got my work number; the company he was delivering for must have given it to him. He wouldn’t speak to or look at me the entire time he was in my apartment. I halved his tip because he was such a dick (but I still gave the guy who was with him a good tip because he was nicer and I wanted the other guy to notice).

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have a neighbor who does not answer her door, ever. I tape a note and my life goes on. But I don’t understand this. I have noticed people calling from the driveway more. Interesting since the front door is 30 feet away from their car. However, I wondered if it was a respect thing (I don’t want to disturb you) or if they did not want to deal with my dog’s silliness. I think people are just finding more and more uses for cellphones. Maybe in the future we will no longer have door bells.

        1. ActCasual*

          I’ll answer the door if I’m expecting someone, or if a friend/family member calls and lets me know they’re in the area and would like to stop by. Otherwise, nope. I rarely answer the phone, either.

    10. Bostonian*

      I don’t get much food delivered, but I’d probably adopt this tactic if I were a delivery person in my neighborhood – most of the buildings are 3-10 unit apartments. It can be hard to tell which bell goes to which apartment, sometimes there’s a unit around the back, sometimes the bells are broken, sometimes the street number is hard to find or missing, in bigger buildings you may need to work out the call box and call up, etc. If they call you, you can just come out to where they are and they don’t have to think about it. In neighborhoods of mostly single-family houses it seems less necessary.

      I wonder if the growth of Uber has played a role this, too, since they call you when they get to your house.

      1. Chrissi*

        Uber totally does not call when they get to my apartment – you’re lucky. Then again, I try to make sure to be standing outside waiting for them. I have talked w/ some of the drivers and they say it’s really annoying to have to wait outside for a long time for people to come down that have ordered the ride. Like a minute is no big deal, but some people keep them waiting for 10 minutes or more and they don’t get paid for that time. I live on the northside of Chicago though, so if you live somewhere more suburban, that might account for the difference.

      2. Chrissi*

        Aaaaand you’re username kind of gives away where you live doesn’t it? That was slightly stupid of me, wasn’t it? ;)

    11. AnotherAlison*

      I live too far out in the boonies to have anything delivered other than UPS and FedEx, and they still ring the door bell. If I were in town, I think I would like this new trend, though. Saves my dogs some aggravation.

    12. LBK*

      Is that a bad thing? I’ve lived in one place that didn’t have a buzzer at all and two where it existed but didn’t actually work, so I’m fine with phone calls. Plus it’s nice to be able to confirm with the person that you’re there and you’re coming out to get the food, and if they call a little before they get there you can pause whatever you’re doing to go meet them.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It’s not a bad thing, I suppose — just a really noticeable shift from what happened for so many years until now.

        I do still prefer the doorbell, but can’t totally identify why; it’s probably just habit. It feels like the thing that’s supposed to happen when someone is going to need to walk up to your door in 20 seconds anyway (as opposed to Uber, where you’re going to go out to them).

        (So yes, I guess definitely just habit.)

        And what everyone has said about saving time, weather, doorbell confusion, etc. makes sense!

        1. The IT Manager*

          Well I’m probably waiting for the food and ready to walk to the door.

          It is possible that my cell phone is not right next to me and I end up running to the other room to grab it only to find out that I need to go to the front door. So that’s why I’d prefer them to ring the door bell or knock.

    13. the_scientist*

      I think it’s probably a time-saving measure, honestly. The delivery guys in my neighbourhood fairly sprint from car –> door –> car so I’m sure they make the call while still in the car so they don’t have to wait at the front door.

      I’m also thinking of my setup, which is in a high-rise condo. To get into the building, delivery people have to either tailgate someone, or look up my number on the list (unless they’ve gotten a buzzer number), and then dial, and then wait for me to unlock the door, and then wait for the elevator, then take the elevator, and then knock on my unit door. It’s a huge time suck, and tenants sometimes aren’t always listed in building directories. If they call me to tell me that they are on their way, I can come down and meet them, and they can get back in their car and on to the next delivery more quickly. Kind of defeats the purpose of delivery, though; 99% of the reason I order in is so I can answer the door in my PJs.

    14. Lillian McGee*

      Could be a generational thing as well. I hear that Kids These Days think it’s rude to just go knock on someone’s door or ring the doorbell. I’ve even read that many kids think it’s rude not to text before you call someone (!?)

      1. Ad Astra*

        I don’t think it’s rude to call someone without texting first, but I would certainly prefer a text first. Since I have my phone on me at all times, there are a lot of situations where I’m able to answer my phone but it’s not a good time for a long conversation (and if it’s a short conversation, why call at all when you can text?). If someone calls me without texting, I answer right away in case it’s an emergency or something time-sensitive.

        And please, please don’t leave me a voicemail unless you’re calling about a business matter.

        1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

          And please, please don’t leave me a voicemail unless you’re calling about a business matter.

          Am I the only that finds this odd? I don’t talk on the phone or text very much so maybe I’m clueless here. Is this the norm that people don’t like getting personal voicemails and we’re all expected to just know or this more the exception?

          1. Lillian McGee*

            I find it odd too. If someone doesn’t leave me a VM, I don’t call back because why should I??? But apparently that is what many people expect.
            Personally, If I call someone who doesn’t pick up, friend, family or business-related, I either leave a message saying what I was calling about or hang up and try again later.

    15. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve noticed this trend, too, and our “doorbell” actually rings my spouse’s cell phone, so she has to clarify whether the delivery person is calling her phone number or ringing the buzzer from downstairs… and usually it’s the cell phone, so she’ll ask the delivery person to hang up and call from the “doorbell” so she can buzz the person in.

      1. Kerry (Like The County In Ireland)*

        I think it’s primarily people will do things they are more comfortable with and a buzzer may not be familiar/may not want to go into strange buildings, with unlimited minutes it’s easier to call and reach a person, and convenience for the delivery person. I have had one cab driver come to my apartment to let me know he was their, which was weird. About 50% of cabbies have a phone and will call and ask where I am waiting.

      2. Jillociraptor*

        We have this too and I entered the intercom’s number into my contacts so I always know what it is.

    16. Gandalf the Nude*

      Another potential personal safety aspect: pets. Phone ringers don’t trigger animals the same way that doorbells or knocks do. Also, it gives the customer a bit of notice to secure the animal before answering. The trend is at least a couple years old in my city.

      1. Camster*

        I actually had my doorbell disabled because of my two cats. Not only was the doorbell ringer itself very annoying (a very loud “bong” sound and I live in a fairly small apartment), but there would be a low hum afterwards for the longest time which irritated my cats (and me). So, I prefer delivery people to call me on my cell.

        1. Windchime*

          My doorbell doesn’t ring that often, but the cat still recognizes the sound. He will even go to the hall and look at the door if he hears a doorbell on TV.

    17. Ad Astra*

      I haven’t run into this, but I’ll bet you anything it’s a security measure. Even though delivery people carry very little cash, it’s not totally uncommon for them to be robbed and sometimes beaten in the process. A couple of my high school classmates put someone in the hospital (and themselves in jail) for like $40 and a couple of pizzas.

    18. Dana*

      I delivered pizza for a few years and in our area this is not common. I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s weird, but dealing with pets/babies/security was not such a big deal to warrant this. We did have apartments in our zone that had nonfunctioning call boxes, so we skipped straight to calling the customer for those deliveries, but that is really the only time I remember not knocking/ringing the bell first.

      For me, I would first ring the bell. Usually you can hear it yourself, but if not, the time before I skipped to knocking significantly decreased. If no answer, knock. If still no answer, ring bell/knock again. If still no answer, go back to car and call. If no one answers the phone, leave message. Walk back to door without food. Ring bell/knock. Then go back to car and call store to see if there was a different number on the called ID. If they don’t have another number, or it fails, drive back to store. 9/10 times you’ve been pranked. Once in a while people fall asleep or decide to shower or run to the store after ordering food we told them we arrive in a half hour or so.

    19. pony tailed wonder*

      I wish it would catch on more in my area. I work in an academic library and students call to have food delivered to the library while they are studying. The delivery people come to the front desk all the time and ask for “Katy” or whomever. Trust me, the students do not introduce themselves when they come in to the library nor do they let us know at which table or carrel they are going to study at. Nor does it occur to them to come to the front when their order is supposed to arrive. I think they literally think that the delivery people are going to walk up and down the stacks on every floor until someone claims the food.

      1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        Wow. No amount of studying is going to give these kids the common sense they lack.

    20. silence covered the sky*

      How difficult is it to identify your residence from the street? I mean, like: go out to the street at 7pm or whenever the deliveryman tend to cometh and see for yourself. Could a plant have grown to obscure your house number?

      But my first guess would be that it’s a time-saving thing and/or a security thing. Minutes and seconds can count when you’re doing delivery:

      Just a single principle: the Deliverator stands tall, your pie in thirty minutes or you can have it free…

    21. ScarletInTheLibrary*

      My workplace is on a complex where most buildings have a buzzer and/or receptionist. Almost all receptionists in our area have taken the policy that they are not responsible for deliveries (no matter if it’s mail, flowers, or food). They often will not confirm that the contact person even works in that building for security reasons. Add that there are a bunch of dead-end streets and no address signs, delivery people may not know if they are at the right building. Not surprisingly, most will call when they are nearby and have the person come out to pickup the food.

  102. BeeBee*

    Today is my last day as my contract ends! I haven’t felt this good in a while. Unfortunately, I have no other job lined up and I’ve been asked to reapply. Even though I am bored to tears at this job and hate coming in, I still reapplied. I seriously hope the other places I’ve applied to get back to me soon T^T

  103. Squirrel*

    This will probably get way buried down in the comments, but I just wanted to give a big shout out to Alison and the website for being so awesome! I just celebrated my one month at my new job, which I got because of Alison’s advice (this is the second job this website has helped me get). We moved across the country to a place with no friends or support system, which made job searching very difficult, but this website helped a ton. Thank you Alison for being so amazing!

      1. Squirrel*

        Thank you! And thank you again for being such a wonderful resource all these years! I’ve been reading your site since it first started, and I’m glad to see that you’ve become successful. :)

  104. Burned Out OP*

    I’m the letter writer from the “I think I’m burning out, what do I do?” letter that was published on Wednesday.

    I had a long talk with my boss. Apparently he thought I’d been missing work and struggling with things due to a medical problem. I thought he knew I was overworked and struggling mentally. Nope. We both headdesked repeatedly. I guess I was hiding it a whole lot better than I thought.

    I feel really bad about surprising him with that info. But, I’d thought we’d already pared down my role to the bone, and it turns out that’s not the case at all. So that’s a huge relief. I’m getting through the current major project (another 10 days tops, and working short days if possible), taking a week off, and then reassessing.

    When speaking with my doctor, she mentioned that she’d last seen me in June and I’d described my work at that time as tough but good. I’d lost perspective and forgotten that I was doing okay that recently. So I’m hopeful that I’m not as deep in a hole as I’d thought.

    We’ll see what happens. My brain is not functioning any better and I’m worried about being able to complete this project that I’m working on, but I don’t feel trapped and hopeless any more. Thanks so much for the advice and perspective, it’s been very helpful.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      This is great! It sounds like you are on the right track. I hope your week off is very refreshing for you.

    2. Chrissi*

      Not feeling trapped and hopeless is very, very good. And it’s wonderful that your boss is concerned about this and takes you seriously. I think that’ll help you a lot.

      In terms of the brain fog, you might ask your boss for accommodations similar to how you would for ADA for depression or ADHD, where he breaks things up into smaller deadlines or smaller tasks or straight up tells you which tasks to work on in what order so you don’t have to make the decisions yourself. Or anything else that you think might help like reviewing your work as you complete it to troubleshoot or check for errors. Essentially asking him to do some of the concentrating for you, if that makes any sense. Maybe google ADA accomodations and ADHD and see what’s suggested for the concentration part of the equation.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      This is a really great interim update (though I’ll still wait for the “I’ve gotten some rest and I’m back in action!” update!) It can be so easy to lose perspective in situations like this, which is why it’s so great you’ve gotten other people on your team to help you navigate this tough moment. Good luck and please report back!

    5. Mz. Puppie*

      What an amazing update! Thank you so much for coming back to let us know! I’ve been thinking of you!

  105. h*

    What’s a good way to deal with coworkers who complain, often jokingly, about the smell of another co-worker’s lunch? It’s not even something foul like fish – it’s usually just Chinese food. I think it’s often light-hearted – though sometimes it’s a passive-aggressive sigh as they walk down the hallway. Thoughts?

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Some Chinese food smells terrible! Someone who sits next to me eats some foul-smelling fermented cabbage dish that makes me gag. If more than one person is complaining, even jokingly, I would rethink what I eat at my desk. I have an irrational dislike for the person in my office who microwaves fish every day; I don’t think people realize how far the smell travels and how awful it can be for those of us not eating the malodorous lunch.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        I forgot to write that if it’s just mainstream Chinese takeout then I wouldn’t worry about it at all. I just realized I haven’t had chinese food in months and now I am craving it.

      2. Steve G*

        My former coworker reeked havoc bringing in a container of gefilte fish soup into our small office. The kicker was that he had to walk very far from the restaurant and deal with the elevator lines in that building to get it up there. He easily could have stopped in Union Square on the way and had it outside on that nice day. But nope!

    2. Lillian McGee*

      I have no clue. I get really grossed out by the smell of oatmeal, but I would never say anything because that’s my problem, not the oatmeal-eater’s! Hope I haven’t been making anyone self-conscious with my grimacing….

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Oh that’s a good point. I hate the smell of oranges for some reason but I would never comment on it because I know I’m the weird one. I wonder why some people don’t like some benign smells like oatmeal/oranges. Maybe my mom was attacked with an orange when she was pregnant with me!

    3. Colette*

      Are they saying it to you? Are they talking about your food, or are they commenting on a third party’s food?

      I think something like “I hadn’t noticed” or “it doesn’t bother me” might discourage future comments, if they’re not talking about your food.

      1. h*

        It’s somewhat of an office-wide problem. We have about 2-3 women who like to make a production out of complaining about the smell of the food of the other 6 or so employees. Sometimes its me, sometimes it’s someone else, pretty much anyone that brings in something they don’t want to smell. I typically pack a sandwich so I’m not usually the person on the receiving end, but I always cringe when one of them comes storming down the hallway, complaining loudly about someone’s lunch stinking up the office.

        1. Natalie*

          They sound like jerks. Assuming you’re not their manager, it’s probably best to not engage with them.

    4. fposte*

      Is it just one person, and do they complain about everybody’s lunch?

      If so, I wouldn’t worry about it. But if it does seem like you nuked something that was a fragrance outlier, I’d acknowledge that it’s not pleasant for everybody, because it’s not. “Sorry, forgot about the garlic. Is there a time where it’s less likely to bother you?”

        1. Windchime*

          Me, too. If there is anything that smells better than garlic and onions gently sautéed in olive oil, I would love to know what it is. Because I love the smell (and taste).

    5. Oatmeal*

      Ugh. I find it incredibly rude when people comment on other people’s food. Especially since food is so tied to culture and background. Whenever this come up it’s inevitably some “weird ethnic food” that people are complaining about, not the smell of chicken soup, or pasta or something (which can also smell completely revolting when reheated).

      I’d be super forthright about it: “Hey – you’ve mentioned that a few times now. Knock it off. That tuna salad you ate last week didn’t smell like roses either.” (Keep the tone light!)

  106. out of sick leave*

    How in the world do people with kids manage to have good work attendance? Before I had kids, I used maybe one day a year of sick leave. My job has very generous leave. I get 72 hours/year of sick leave and 32 hours of personal leave. As of the end of July, I have 0 hours left of either. I haven’t taken a single sick day for myself this year – it’s all been for my kids. I have 2 kids, each of whom seems to have some kind of random virus every few months (but never at the same time, of course, because that would make things too easy). Even for a minor fever that lasts less than a day, it’s at least 2 days off work because the school policy is that they can’t come back until they’ve been symptom free for at least 24 hours. And yes, my husband does cover some of the time, though less than half because he’s self-employed (works directly with clients and doesn’t get paid if he cancels a session).

    So what do people do? Are my kids just way sicklier than most? Do others have conveniently retired grandparents nearby who are willing to provide child care for sick kids? I’m fortunate to have lots of flexibility so my job isn’t in jeopardy, but I’m still just frustrated by the situation. It would be nice to be able to use sick leave for myself rather than working through migraines a few times a year, and it would be super nice to be able to use my annual leave for an actual vacation.

    1. LaraW*

      That is tough! Are your kids little or big? It seemed like once we got through kindergarten they got a lot healthier. Usually when one of the kids are sick, my husband and I split the day. We do not have any local family support either, so its just us.

      1. out of sick leave*

        I have a 6-year-old and a 19-month-old. It would be great if the older one would start getting sick less often now!

    2. Bostonian*

      Has anyone studied those 24-hours symptom free policies to see if they actually cut down on the spread of illnesses? Because taking a day off of work and rearranging meetings and scrambling at work later on in order to stay home with a kid who seems perfectly happy and healthy has been one of the most infuriating aspects of being a parent lately. And I have toddlers, so there are lots of other contenders for infuriating things!

      I don’t have any good answers – my spouse and I are both lucky enough to have pretty flexible jobs (in terms of which hours we work – we each have a heavy workload and the work has to get done regardless), we have a couple of sitters who are sometimes available at short notice for a half or full day, and at one point when we had a ridiculous string of illnesses we asked my semi-retired parents to come from 3 hours away to help out for a couple of days. I think most people cobble together solutions, and it sucks. (And a lot of people send their kids in when the policy says they aren’t supposed to.)

      1. Bostonian*

        I’ve also seen people on this site refer to being able to work from home for the occasional sick kid day. Most managers acknowledge that less work will get done than if the employee was in the office, but may be willing to be flexible about it for high performers. It wouldn’t work at all with my kids right now – my toddlers are at the age where they sometimes melt down if I try to go to the bathroom alone – but once they get old enough to be entertained by Disney DVDs it might be possible to get enough work done at home that I won’t have to use sick time.

      2. out of sick leave*

        I wonder about the 24 hour policy, too. I’m sure it’s helpful for more serious illnesses, but sometimes I think it’s overkill. Last school year the nurse kept sending my daughter home because she’d complain that she “felt hot” and when the nurse took her temperature it would be something like 99.9, which is “almost a fever” (direct quote from the nurse, I kid you not). So my husband or I would leave work early to pick her up and we’d have to keep her home the next day, and meanwhile the kid was totally fine with no more “almost fever” thermometer readings or any other signs of illness. My daughter would keep doing it because she wanted to be at home. This happened probably 4 times within a month or 2, until we complained to the principal, who we were pleasantly surprised was willing to tell the nurse to quit it.

        1. out of sick leave*

          Also, I unfortunately can’t do much of my job from home because it involves confidential data that can’t leave the office.

        2. Bostonian*

          I would be beyond furious with that nurse. If this was your older child, then not only are you taking time off work, but she’s missing classroom instructional time. At 6 it’s not like she’s got a midterm that she’s missing, but disruption in the day-to-day rhythms of reading and math lessons can’t be helpful.

        3. J.B.*

          I think the 6 year old is old enough to have some consequences imposed, and I am glad you pushed back at the school nurse. My response below assumed you could work from home. Can you flex any time and go in on evenings or weekends?

          1. out of sick leave*

            The consequence for my daughter is that if she’s too sick for school, she’s too sick to do anything at home except rest in her bed. No playing with me, no electronics. She would still rather spend all day being bored in her room than going to school, unfortunately.

            I can go in on weekends, and I have if it’s really necessary to get work done, but I would strongly prefer not to. :)

    3. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Have you considered some hand-washing training with them? A lot of people do not know how to wash their hands, and it makes a huge difference. My husband is not great at washing his hands, spends 15 seconds tops barely scrubbing and he gets sick all the time. I work at a hospital and wash my hands properly and rarely get sick.

      Do they know the song row, row, row your boat? You should scrub your hands with soap for two rounds or row row row your boat before rinsing with warm water.

      1. Dana*

        When I worked in food service I stopped getting sick. I haven’t gotten sick since! Hand washing is soo important and so underrated!

    4. Chrissi*

      It sounds like you are the only option when the kids get sick. I think that for a lot of people, they split taking off for the kids between two parents, and I bet the parents that don’t use all their sick leave for the kids are able to do that because they can work at home when the kid is sick and maybe just take a half day or a couple hours off (or make them up later) instead of taking a whole day each time they are contagious or need to go the dr.

      My sister and I were just talking about this. She’s a SAHM and her 3-year old has had to go to occupational and speech therapy and a bunch of diagnostic appts due to some minor developmental delays. Between phone calls to the insurance company to get everything authorized, phone calls w/ the Dr.’s, and 3 to 4 appts/ week (2 speech, 1 occupational, and then the various evaluations), neither of us know how a family w/ two working parents would’ve managed it. Her speech therapist was a 45 minute drive away! And she has 2 other kids! It’s calmed down now because the evaluations are all done, and she switched speech therapists to someone that will come to her house and only once a week. But it’s still a lot. I really, really don’t know how working parents do it. My hat’s off to you all!

    5. AnotherAlison*

      Here’s the upside to this: My youngest is now 11, and I don’t remember! So, at some point, you must move past this stage to where they aren’t sick as often or can stay home at least half the day alone. Other than my husband, I didn’t have any back-up family, and my husband is also self-employed, so I was the default person, too. My kids weren’t sick often, but it never falls on a day that not much is going on at work.

    6. J.B.*

      Mine have definitely gone through phases like that. My older daughter especially when she was < 3 ran fevers for EVERYTHING so even colds meant staying home. I and I think most people are – flexible – with the 24 hour rule. I never mask with ibuprofen (bad and likely to backfire!) but if I think the kids are fine in the am after a fever then they go back. The best thing is to work as much as possible from home during naps and evening to minimize time off. It is super stressful but does eventually get better!

    7. TotesMaGoats*

      At OldJob, I had massive amounts of leave and could work from home if needed, so I would stay home with sick kid unless I had a meeting I couldn’t miss. We even did a trade off one day because I had something and he had something that couldn’t be moved. Now that I’m at NewJob and starting to accrue either hubby takes him or MIL comes down. Note that at OldJob, I stayed home because I wanted to and because I hated my job. If I’d been happy, then we would’ve split those duties evenly. At least the assumption was never that because I’m mom that I had to be the one to stay home with sick kid.

    2. Kelly L.*

      Yup. I guess I’m going to have to start blocking ads, because the alternative is just deciding AAM is no longer a website I’m able to visit, and I don’t think I can live without it! (It was bad enough giving up TVTropes. But it’s just soooo…..sloooooow now.)

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I just make it so plugins never autoplay (not just on this site). Static ads will show but never video ones.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Something has gone awry with ads this week. I just talked to my ad network about it, and they said:

      “My director and I have spent the morning collecting the IDs of ad campaigns that we’ve seen serving any intrusive ads. I just sent off emails to our providers to have them blacklist all of these. We’re taking this very seriously and we will continue to monitor this and ban all of these. I apologize that we’ve had an influx of these this week! I know it’s been frustrating, and it’s been frustrating for us as well, especially because it stems from advertisers being dishonest and labeling video ads as standard ads. Please continue to keep me posted.”

      I give you my blessing to use an ad blocker here; I know this is frustrating.

      2. BRR*

        I had two autoplaying at the same time. I bought the book and resume review so I feel like that balances out using ad blocker for a little while.

  108. VeryAnonforthis*

    I’ve been meaning to write in for the past few months on a recent saga, and am hoping it will end soon. I started a position at a mid-size nonprofit over a year ago, and have three direct reports. One Associate was resistant to change, and her work performance kept declining. She came to see me in the winter and I thought “she’s resigning!” Nope, she’s pregnant, and her performance continued to decline, part of it due to absences resulted to pregnancy complications. Basically, she has very bad time management skills, weak attention to details, and performs OK on an assistant level, but not someone who is supposed to be managing her own projects. There have been numerous HR meetings (some just me with HR, some her with HR and some joint ones), and in two joint meetings she mentioned consulting legal help, but I’m not allowed to put her on a PIP, due to our HR outside counsel’s advice. We even talked about how we were open to giving her a reduced schedule, but she refused it. Just this week was our yearly eval. I gave her a very small raise rather than the “meets expectations” one and she admitted that she was expecting none. Still, she wants to write a response, and “talk to someone” before she signs the eval form. She leaves on maternity leave next month and I have my fingers crossed she won’t return. Any thoughts about what she might be trying to have happen?

    1. Chrissi*

      It’s just smart as an employee, no matter how badly you are doing or how much you think she deserves it, to “talk to someone” and write a response, to protect themselves. You are in the position of doing what’s best for the company with their best interests at heart, and she knows that, and so she is doing what is best for her and trying to protect herself. It sounds like she’s laying groundwork that she likely will never use based on her statements. But that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t do it just in case.

    2. BRR*

      It looks like to me she knows she sucks and wants to use her pregnancy to prevent being fired. For the eval she either wants to make sure she’s not admitting that she can’t perform her job because if she is let go she wants to be able to sue or she is just throwing up law suit shields to keep her job. She may not even be talking to someone now, just is bluffing that she will sue if she is let go.

      1. VeryAnonforthis*

        Thanks for the comments. During the last few months it definitely seemed like she was trying to build a case if she was fired. But now that she’s so close to taking maternity leave and she’s not even on a PIP I don’t know what will happen. HR and I were really clear that when she returned from leave we would expect her to handle more work and meet higher standards.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      She’s a lot of work. My thought is that she is doing everything she can think of to make your job as hard as possible. I don’t think it matters to her if she talks to someone or not, all that matters is that she has created one more stall tactic or one more hurdle for you to jump.

  109. On the Poddie*

    I’m an obsessive listener of podcasts at work, but since I listen for at least half my workday, I burn through them quickly. Anyone have suggestions for more? Here’s some I already listen to:
    – This American Life
    – Startup
    – 99% Invisible
    – Reply All
    – The Sporkful
    – Slate Culture gabfest, Political gabfest and Double X gabfest, Slate Money, and Working podcast
    – Invisibilia
    – The Flop House

      1. Ms. FS*

        I listen to Radiolab, Invisibilia (Love this one), Serial (its from 2014 but its amazing), The longest shortest time (If you have kids its funny), and Death Sex and Money.

        1. schnapps*

          If you liked Serial, look for Undisclosed. It digs into the weeds of the evidence behind the case. They have 9 episodes and 9 addendums so far, with more to come.

    2. Nanc*

      Reduced Shakespeare Company (reducedshakespeare [dot] com)
      I’m so old I saw the original troupe performing at the Novato Renaissance Faire many, many times! The podcasts focus on the theater community but they cover everything from the acting to the technical to Sci Fi and beyond. Be sure to check out their Famous Guests list–Scott Bakula/Quantum Enterprise Man is hysterical.

    5. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Add Slate’s parenting podcast to your list. It’s a bi-weekly, I think, but it’s really very good – even if you (like me) don’t have kids.

    6. Meg*

      So many! In addition to the ones others have listed:

      – Happier with Gretchen Rubin (my current favorite!)
      – New York Magazine’s Sex Lives (though will definitely be too explicit for some people)
      – Podcast for America (politics)
      – Ask a Clean Person
      – Dear Sugar Radio (Cheryl Strayed)
      – two of the Real Simple podcasts: Things Cooks Know and Labor of Love
      – Vulture TV Podcast

    10. brightstar*

      Pop Culture Happy Hour
      WTF with Marc Maron
      The Smartest Man in the World
      Welcome to Night Vale
      Criminal

    11. Cath in Canada*

      If you like Invisibilia and TIL, you’ll probably like Radiolab too. There’s also some great stuff at Radiotopia (the same collective that 99% Invisible’s in – I think Roman Mars was the founder). I basically like all of their podcasts, especially Mortified which (like Canadian equivalent Grownups Read Things They Wrote As Kids) is people doing live readings of their old journals, short stories, poetry etc. It’s hilarious!

      I’m also currently obsessed with The Black Tapes, a mockumentary that’s telling stories of the paranormal in the exact same style as Serial. Similar music and everything. It’s X-Files meets NPR! It sounds hokey but they do it so well.

    13. The IT Manager*

      – RadioLab (They have a large backlist if you’re not caught up. Personally I think I enjoyed the early seasons better than what they do now.)
      – Freakonomics Radio
      – Planet Money
      – Serial
      – Undisclosed (Only if you listened to Serial because this is three lawyers discrediting the case against Adnan by digging into the records, but they assume a knowledge of Serial when discussing things.)
      – The Story Collider (science stories in the vein of the Moth or TAL)
      – The Moth Podcast
      – Stuff You Missed in History Class (a humongous backlog which you can pick and choose from based on topics)
      – Criminal
      – TED Radio Hour
      – Fresh Air (I pick and choose based on the guest/topic)

      I don’t listen during work. Yet I still augment this list (+ some of the ones already on your list) with audiobooks. Seems like you might like some non-fiction audiobooks.

    14. Bonnie*

      Freakonomics which I think fits in nicely with the ones you are already listening to and Welcome to Nightvale for something completely different.

    15. Mephyle*

      Radiolab (of course)
      In Our Time (BBC4)
      This Week in Parasitism (microbeworld-[dot]-org)
      A History of the World in 100 Objects (BBC) – My current listen – for the 4th time.

    16. schnapps*

      If you want more storyline and don’t mind slightly scary stuff “The Black Tapes” is really good.

      The Moth is fabulous. So is Lore (although he seems to be on hiatus)

      I’ve recently downloaded History Goes Bump which sounds pretty interesting. Missing Maura Murray seems to be along the lines of Serial although I haven’t listened to it yet.

      I listen to podcasts on my commute which is an hour each way, so I tend towards the longer episodes. If I need something to block out the noise at work, I just use a white noise generator on my phone and noise-cancelling headphones.

    17. Windchime*

      Most of these have already been mentioned:

      –The Moth
      –Fresh Air
      –On Point
      –TED Radio Hour

  110. Ops Analyst*

    How do you tactfully tell people that they need to run training materials through you when they are more senior to you and have been doing things in that area longer than you? I don’t know who created these materials or the training. Some have been around a long time. Some are probably being used by people who did not create them and some people are using materials they did create.

    My job is to evaluate these and make sure they are correct and potentially revamp them. But it seems a lot of people don’t know me or what I have been hired to do here. My position is also new (been here 5 months) and people are not used to running anything by me or my department in this way.

    I’m struggling with how to word an email that tells people they can no longer just go ahead and use what they have but that they need to essentially ask permission now.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I actually wouldn’t do an email. I’d do a series of 1:1 meetings to talk through what your job is, and agree with them about the processes for your review of their materials. Maybe your boss can do the intro email so it’s clear you’ve got the authority to do it.

      1. Ops Analyst*

        Ah, not a bad idea. Most of us work in different offices so I can’t do face to face, but I could schedule a call. But you made me realize I may be thinking about this the wrong way. I could probably send an email and explain the new project and then ask to set up a time to talk so we can work together on making the changes.

        1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          I personally wouldn’t do that either. I would formulate a conversation strategy with your boss.

          I was the new “go-getter” who naively thought everyone would be estatic about the improvements to their processes I brought about. They were not. They hated me even thought I saved the company over 620 million dollars in losses through a process analysis in one of the old systems I did.

          Your company may be different, but have you had any six sigma training? People tend to be very, very emotional about their processes. You should be very careful navigating this process and try really hard not to make anyone look bad.

          1. Ops Analyst*

            Oh no, no. I am certainly not planning to make anyone look bad. The goal was to ask people how they perceived the processes themselves and get their opinions on what they want to change first and go from there. What I meant by explain the project was that we are evaluating how things are working and I want to hear their thoughts.

            The Big Boss has asked me to do this and specifically requested I call out (to him) red tape and BS. Obviously, I would never set out to make anyone look bad and I am always tactful and totally a team builder, but I can’t really avoid (eventually) changing things people don’t want to change.

            1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

              It sounds like you are in a very precarious position. I was in that sort of role too. My boss’s boss (who was head of the department) was tired of X, Y, and Z and thus stuck it with me because I had built trust with him in the short time I had been in the company.

              All I’m trying to convey, is that as a junior level new hire you really don’t have the authority to cut through the corporate red tape, especially if you are not reporting directly to big boss. I hope your direct manager is at least on board with this project. I would navigate cautiously and try to build good relationships with the other managers under Big Boss by helping them with things as much as possible before trying to hard to forge ahead in this project.

              That being said, what the heck is up with all these companies sticking ops analysts in these weird roles where they are being told to manage and improve the processes of managers several grades above them? It’s really a recipe for disaster.

              1. Ops Analyst*

                The manager I report directly to is totally on board. I don’t have the authority to make changes but my boss and Big Boss do and they want to lean heavily on my input.

                As to the Ops Analyst title…good question! My company actually uses the title as a catchall for a lot of positions. But I do also do some analytical work and I am in Operations.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  In that case, I think your first input is that a lot of people seem to be skating by you for some reason.

                  But, I think that bosses should know this. It’s fairly predictable, install a new person with a new process and most people will skate by it. Your power comes from your bosses. They have to say to everyone, “X must be run by OA.”

            2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

              Also I never meant to make anyone look bad either. But when a new hire who has been there for 3 months discovers that 1/3 of your team is using outdated materials and finds a way to fix it, some people take offense to that.

              All I’m really trying to say is that you are in a really political situation so move cautiously. Best case scenario, I’m wrong and you waste a little energy being cautious. Worst case scenario I’m right and you shoot yourself in the foot just because you were doing your job as you were told to do it but didn’t have a grasp of the political spheres involved. It really depends on your co-workers and that departments culture. At the very least you should have a firm grasp on that before “calling out” corporate red tape or BS.

              1. Ops Analyst*

                Yup. I hear you. And appreciate the device. I have actually already experienced a little of this, however, inadvertently. There is one coworker who has not been very nice to me. She’s snotty, ignores my emails, and when she does reply with info it is typically condescending. I did not understand until I realized that I had redone about 10 of her training documents that have gone out company wide and there has been a lot of talk about how improved they are. I had no idea they were originally hers. I actually mistakenly believed they were originally done by someone else who I was working directly with to redo them.

                Last week I actually discovered she took credit for an LMS course I created recently on one of the topics she’s created a lot of documentation for. But again, that was before I knew she was part of it and had I known, I absolutely would have brought her into it and talked to her about it first. No one told me…communication issues.

        2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          If these managers are in different offices, especially if it is across states, then making sure these are in face/conference call meetings with all the stakeholders is doubly important. The potential for misunderstanding when you don’t see a person ever day is so high.

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I’ve been in your shoes, as an Ops Analysts no less! I agree that email is the worst way to go about this. I worked in a call center of a big bank and was told it was my job to improve processes, finding process gaps, etc. The problem was management didn’t support the ops analysts in this role and there were way to many cooks in the kitchen. The “coaches” (i.e. supervisors), also did not like the ops analysts telling their direct reports anything. It was just a huge cluster****. I believe I was a grade 7, I reported to a grade 10, and the coaches were all grade 8s overseeing a bunch of grade 3s, 4s, and 5s. It was a tough field to navigate!

      I would start with your direct boss and find out how they want you to approach this so that your boss has your back. If they are too busy to meet with you for a while I would try surfing the server(s) you have access to and/or SharePoint if your company is using that to review what’s out there.

      If there are other managers at your managers level whose processes you are supposed to evaluate, I would ask your boss to set up joint meeting where the two of you ask the other bosses what would work best for them. In general you want to avoid in anyway shape or form “calling out” the other bosses or insulting them by finding mistakes in their processes.

      Good luck!

      1. Ops Analyst*

        I should probably clarify that this isn’t necessarily about finding mistakes in process that these people own but more that I’ll be looking at company required processes. For example, needing to submit 5 tickets to GIS in order to accomplish a task that could easily be done in one ticket if we just changed one little thing.

        Part of that is looking at the training materials people are using to train their employees on these processes, which will fall into two categories 1) they are using outdated materials that someone else created, or 2) they have created training materials themselves that may have been correct at the time but no longer are (and nobody told them that) or that were created based on old policies that are no longer in effect (also which nobody told them).

        I will essentially need to update those training materials either based on the current processes or on the future processes that change. Mostly this is to streamline training and have it all come from one place. Right now there is a lot of overlap and incorrect information. And a lot of people doing things that are completely unnecessary.

        Most of this is looking at company red tape, not calling people out for their mistakes. If they are using incorrect materials they are more than likely using them because someone else gave them the wrong information. There is a lack of communication around here that makes a lot of processes redundant, a lot of people duplicate efforts, and changes often go unnoticed, which is precisely what Big Boss wants to change.

        I also get the feeling that a lot of this has been done for lack of having someone else to do it. Most of these people are not trainers and don’t want to be doing this. I think they may appreciate me taking it off their plate. I’m just struggling with how to tell them that something they’ve been doing forever needs to change when they’ve been here so much longer than me and many of them are senior.

        1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          Your last paragraph really hits the issue I’m trying to get at. That’s why I think it’s really important for you to first build really good acumen with your direct supervisor as well as all the other supervisors at their level before trying to cut through the corporate BS.

          Has the big boss introduced you to the other bosses and explained that this is your project? If you haven’t witnessed that event than chances are they do not know big boss wants you doing this. It’s not a good situation to be in. The worst year of my life started out very similar to what you were describing, so I’m admittedly a little biased here. ^_^

          1. Ops Analyst*

            I have a pretty good relationship developed with most of the director level people. They are all onboard with the changes and some have even been requesting it. One in particular has been pushing for this to happen for years before I got here. It’s the people who work under them who are not directly on my team that I have to work with to make the changes though. Technically many of them might be the same level as me, but they’ve been with the company far longer, and I completely understand that they have personal stake in the changes and a lot of their own hours invested.

    3. Ops Analyst*

      Not sure if it makes a difference but my company has one of the most amazing cultures that is accepting to change that I have ever come across. I have not yet worked with a single person that was not collaborative and working for improvement. Things are always morphing around here. In fact, there is an internal joke about how our company acronym stands for something along the lines of constant transformation.

      1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

        How long have you been at Totally Different? Or more importantly, the new department you are in? I worked for a great company that had a lot of phenomenal teams as an Ops Analyst, but I had a terrible experience with one of departments. I had been at the company a year when I was transferred to this department, and I made the mistake of not evaluating everyone’s feelings, motivations, and goals and assuming they would be like my other team. It’s a mistake I will never make again. I now make evaluating the people in my new department/team the #1 priority. I then morph my suggestions to hit on their goals.

        If for example, Jane is focused on SLA, I phrase my processes tweak to explain how it will bump her teams SLA. It’s generally a good practice regardless of your department, but it’s especially important if you are in a project where you don’t really have the clout to push it forward.

        1. Ops Analyst*

          I’ve been here for 5 months. I was at a totally different company before. I definitely get that I’m not exposed to everyone and there will probably be some people who I don’t work well with (like the woman I mentioned above, I’d forgotten about her before). So far that has not been my experience. I’ve also known about the company for many years, been aching to work here for years, and have known some people who worked for this company in different offices/departments. There have been some negative comments. I guess they used to have a not so great reputation but a few years ago a new CEO came in and has made great strides in changing things. There have been many positive comments from people about the company culture, specifically the team oriented spirit and being very adaptive to change.

    4. The IT Manager*

      I’ve got to respectfully disagree with Diluted_TortoiseShell. I am not an Ops Analyst, but I don’t think what Ops Analyst described sounds as potentially upsetting as what Diluted_TortoiseShell is talking about.

      OTOH I think Ops Analyst needs to explain the project and her role to everyone – possibly through email – before she should target individual emails to people not following a process they haven’t heard about yet.

      1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

        I’d personally love to be wrong on this. I was just put into a very similar position when I was an ops analyst. Boss boss put me on a project to do with process improvement. I didn’t get buy in and build acumen before I started making improvements. Although effective (like I said I saved the company over $600MM) my own manager and her peer’s hated me and made my life miserable for a year before I was finally able to get to a new department. Thus I will always focus on the people and learn their motives before daring to touch their processes again.

        I think in general taking the time to identify the key players and understand their motives is always a good move even in the most healthy of corporate cultures.

        1. Ops Analyst*

          That sounds like a miserable situation and one I don’t want to be in for sure. I honestly don’t believe that would even be tolerated here. I don’t think people with that attitude would make it very far in this company. But then, I’m still new, so I definitely heed all advice.

          I’ve identified the key players already. The next step is understanding their motives. In order to do that, I need to contact them and introduce myself and explain what my role is, then ask them for input in a way that conveys that it’s not a request but a requirement, without coming off like a jerk. I also don’t want to ambush anyone and act like I’m just looking for information and then I swoop in and change things without them expecting it.

      2. Ops Analyst*

        This is more along the lines of what I was thinking, that people should know that there is a project happening and ask for input before targeting people. Like a heads up sort of thing. Nothing so far has indicated to me that people could get offended simply by the nature of making changes. My concern was more the dynamics of being a new person and just coming out of the gate making changes when I really don’t know anything yet. And how to actually phrase to people that this is what I’m doing and what to expect, while realizing that they have invested a lot in what is currently in place.

    5. Artemesia*

      I would schedule a review of all training materials and I would do that by talking with each person individually, letting them know materials are being vetted to update information, and asking them which materials they will be using next so those can be reviewed first. And I would ask them each time you review a particular set what their experience has been, what issues come up, if there are changes they would like to see in them i.e. consult them and honor their expertise while also making sure things are updated.

  111. Today's anon*

    Bummed that I did not get the job I was a finalist for, and also, that they gave the job to the person I felt was the least qualified of the 3 finalists (our names were public, and I know the two other candidates professionally). I learned a lot about myself during the many long interviews and I can tell it has made me more confident in my current job to have had so many successful conversations with people much higher than me but … I wish I had gotten the job and the salary and the opportunity to grow when I am feeling so stifled where I am.

  112. Goliath Gary Willikers*

    I just sent a resume with the wrong address on it. I’ve been bouncing back and forth between using my university address and my family address on applications depending on the job location. (I could end up living in either place next month.)

    I just sent a cover letter with one address, and a resume with the other address. D’oh! Should I email the hiring manager back and explain the error, or just write this job off, since such an obvious mistake will probably take me out of the running? (Not a good first impression.)

    1. Colette*

      I’m not sure it’s that big of a deal, actually. I doubt a hiring manager would deliberately compare the addresses – I’d guess their focus would be on content. The only time when it might be an issue is if they notice the wrong address (i.e. if you’re applying for jobs in locations far apart and they notice the distant address), but I’m not sure that’s worth correcting.

    2. Not Karen*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. If you’re still in school, they’ll probably just assume one is your university address and the other your permanent address.

    3. The IT Manager*

      Don’t count yourself out. I’d bet they don’t notice because they don’t pay that much attention to the address unless it’s across the country.

      I’d even say you can contact them and correct whichever document needs correcting although it’s probably easier if you tell them that the college town one reflects your soon to be old address and that only works if the job is in your home town rather than college town.

    4. BRR*

      I wouldn’t email because a) I always worry about extra contact trying to be about getting more attention and b) it’s not that big of a deal unless the job is to make sure addresses are the same on different pieces of paper ;)

  113. KJR*

    I’m interested in hearing how you heard about your job–word of mouth/networking? Online ad? Professional/trade org?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I just found it on my employer’s website. When searching for a job, I check online job boards and Craiglist, but I also make a point of checking the websites of specific schools or companies I’d be interested in working at, just to see if they have openings. My current employer just happened to have one.

    2. Colette*

      I’ve gotten jobs through networking as well as job ads. In my city, there’s an email service that sends out a list of (most) new job ads every day, which makes it easy to keep up with jobs that are posted on company websites.

    3. MT*

      I network on Linked in. Got every job, but my first one out of college off of connections of linkedin. I join and participate in groups that are directly related to my field.

    4. Dana*

      I want to follow this too. I use indeed.com, careerbuilder.com, and craiglist when I have tons of time to sift through the crap, but I feel like I’m missing something.

    6. Ineloquent*

      Oddly, I didn’t apply. I also have no directly related experience, and I was still in college. They just called me out of the blue for a phone interview. It was weird and awesome.

    7. Delyssia*

      I had my resume posted on one of the big job sites (actually, it was posted on a couple, but I don’t remember which one I was “found” on), and a third-party recruiter found me and reached out about the job.

    9. Just me*

      I just was frustrated at my old job. After a bad week, I emailed a few recruiters. Three months later, I’m in a new gig. My industry is a niche, but I managed to get a better title and bump in pay. I’m also relocating, so it depends on your flexibility.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I picked up the last few PT jobs through word of mouth. After years of coming up empty from “networking” (if you can call it that) all of the sudden that whole picture has changed. I am not sure why. Previous to this, most of my jobs were advertised somewhere. I do question what my younger self may have missed along the way. All I can figure is that people did mention things and I was not listening very well.

    11. ScarletInTheLibrary*

      INALJ which is a list of library/archive jobs broken down by location. Editors for each area monitor many different job boards, websites, and listservs.

  114. Pennalynn Lott*

    I posted in the past about being torn between two universities. I finally made the decision a week ago (UTD over UNTD) and I couldn’t be happier. It’s going to cost me $5000/year (instead of being fully paid for), but even before classes start on Monday I’ve seen a huge difference between the two schools. I’ll be in a much better position after graduation from UTD for a good job.

    Anyway, I’m all squee-excited for school to start next week. :-)

    1. fposte*

      Yay! I think in the economics of time, it makes a lot of sense to spend where you’ll be happy.

  115. Peter*

    What are one on ones for? I feel like I don’t get anything out of them when I have these meetings with my manager. I always have to lead the conversation. Help need guidance. I totally feel demotivated and overwhelmed with all the projects I have.

    1. Colette*

      That would be something to bring up.

      IMO, one-on-ones are a time to discuss anything you want/need your manager’s input on. This could be career goals, skills you’re developing, or work-related questions such as “am I prioritizing tasks A, B, and C correctly” or “I’m planning to do X to deal with situation Y – do you have any concerns about that?”

    2. The IT Manager*

      “One-on-one” just means any meeting you have where it is just you an another person. Mostly they are there for you and that one other person to talk about things that are best kept private or don’t involve others. I assume you mean some kind check in with your manager. I use mine to keep her informed about what I am doing and asking for advice. We also discuss any training / admin /etc.

      For you, you should definitely talk about feeling overwhelmed, overworked, and demotivated because if that. It may be time to discuss taking some work off your plate or prioritizing the work so you can let something slip.

      I do think it kind of sucks that you’re manager doesn’t come in with an agenda, but with my manager it’s a very basic agenda – what I’m doing, training/admin questions or issues .

    3. Ad Astra*

      My boss always starts them with “So, what’s on your mind?” and I never have any idea what to say.

  116. KJR*

    Like most businesses, my company has its ups and downs. We are in a bit of a slump again. Two other times (most recently during the recession), we took pay cuts as high as 20% for two years. I am, literally, dropping my firstborn off at college today and am in somewhat of a panic as to how we would handle yet another pay cut. My company has been absolutely wonderful to me in many ways, financially and work-life balance wise. I feel so torn as to what to do. I don’t want to leave but feel I would owe it to my family to keep my current income coming in, especially with tuition payments beginning very soon. Words of advice are welcome!!

    1. Colette*

      Do you eventually go back to your original salary? Do you get raises during the good years?

      Why don’t you want to leave?

      I’d suggest looking around to see what other options are out there (if they are planning to cut pay again). You don’t have to leave unless you find something better.

      1. KJR*

        Yes, we do go back to our original pay. In good times, we get generous raises & bonuses. It’s just a really nice place to work — everyone gets along well, we have fun but still accomplish quite a bit. I’m paid well and enjoy the work. Plus, I feel quite a bit of loyalty because of all of this.

        1. Colette*

          A few thoughts:
          – Long term approach – treat bonuses/raises as an emergency fund and bank them for the pay cut years. Of course, it’s probably too late to do that now, but it’s something to keep in mind if you stay there.
          – You could stay, and wait to see whether they cut pay and, if so, by how much. A 5% cut may not be work leaving over; 20% may be worth it. While you’re waiting, look at your budget to figure out what your cut off number is.
          – Or you could start looking to see what else is out there. It sounds like you won’t find a better place based on the work and your coworkers, but you may find an equally good one.

  117. Jennifer*

    So on the good news side, my mom is still employed! She works for a small company and her bosses want to retire, so they are selling to a chain business. It sounds like the new place actually likes her demeanor (her current bosses complain that she’s too helpful, yes, really), and she’ll get a raise. On the other hand, her vacation is going from 3 weeks to one because the chain company makes everyone start from scratch and go by the same “new employee” guidelines, and they get no more holidays beyond the bare legal minimum (so no Friday after Thanksgiving off, no December 24/31 off). We usually go on a trip during the post-Christmas season together since I’m off from work, but no longer apparently. Darn it.

    1. Artemesia*

      I bet the top brass doesn’t get treated like this on vacations. It really sucks and suggested a pretty nasty management to bring on a long term employee and pretend they are a ‘new employee’ because of an ownership switch. Glad your mom has her job but it is nasty stuff to treat her like this on vacations. I bet if they bring in a vice president (particularly if it is a well connected one) that person isn’t treated like a new hire. They just trod on those at the bottom because they can.

  118. CS Student*

    I’m in a situation that is one step ahead of the person who is interviewing at Amazon from yesterday. I already accepted an offer before the article was released to begin once when I graduate (so many months from now). While I understood that Amazon had a history of bad work-life balance, considering the dates of the articles I was seeing about it I mostly thought it was in the past. While I’m still completely willing to work at Amazon considering how any problems could be very department/team specific, I am slightly hesitant. I understand that normally it is always best to keep your commitments, but would a case like mine be a reasonable exception?

    If I decide that I want to job hunt, should I quit from Amazon first or should I wait until I get another offer? It has been long enough since I accepted the offer that I would be starting my job search from scratch plus even if the search takes 3 months, they would still be getting several months quitting notice. If I do wait, when I get asked from other companies if I’m interviewing anyone else, considering that I’m a college student I’m sure that I’ll get this question, should I keep the fact I have a signed offer letter to myself, should I mention it, or just say that I do have an offer letter without saying that it is signed?

    1. Kara Ayako*

      I think you should wait and see and let your own experiences be the judge. If you do decide to job hunt after you start, unless it’s unbearable, I would recommend waiting until you have an offer before quitting.

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      I think you are in a fantastic position to interview other companies. Notice I said “interview other companies”. The interview process is as much about finding a company you’ll love as much as it is about showing you are a good fit.

      If you get the “are you looking for anything else” answer honestly but there is not need to get into details about your offers. I’ve interviewed at a few other places, but right now I’m looking to find a company that has A, B, and C where I can contributed to D, E, and F.

    3. MsM*

      “I’m still completely willing to work at Amazon considering how any problems could be very department/team specific…”

      Then unless new information comes to light that would make it completely unfeasible for you to work there, I think you should go forward with your commitment and see for yourself about this particular team. Hopefully you asked enough questions and got to interact enough with them during the interview process that your impression things would be okay was a solid one. (If not, maybe you could see about taking your future supervisor or a coworker out to lunch if that’s feasible and carefully trying to get a feel for things.) And if it does turn out to be a bad fit in practice, you can decide whether you need to get out of there as fast as possible or wait it out. But if you continue your job search while having a signed offer, and someone finds out, that could reflect badly not just on you but on your school for not teaching you how to handle things professionally. And “I knew this was a risk, I took it anyway, and now I’m getting cold feet” is not a rationale that’s going to inspire confidence in other employers.

    4. fposte*

      Do you mean it’s to start next June? Ordinarily I’d say it’s unethical to bail on an accepted offer (and I still think it’s dubious for you to bail on this one just because essentially you’re not feeling it), but with this many months’ lead the landscape changes a little; they’re bound to get a little attrition if they’re signing people up a year in advance.

      I still wouldn’t apply elsewhere until you back out from Amazon; that’s propositioning while married. And backing out on an offer is questionable enough that I’d keep my mouth shut about doing it when talking to other employers. But I’d also think about whether a single newspaper article is really something that you want to take such a drastic step over.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I’m betting this is a December grad with a January start date.

        I think you should stick it out because:
        (1) What you said about departments/location variability is right, you’ll just be guessing until you were in the job for a few months
        (2) Amazon employment does have some cachet (at least I think it does), but if you did find your office too cut throat, you can easily explain why you’re leaving by referencing the work/life balance etc

      2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

        What’s drastic about looking at other opportunities in light of new evidence? Especially with so many months between the offered start date?

        I really don’t see a problem with keeping the offer from Amazon and fishing around a little. The individual is still entertaining their offer, he just has some (very understandable doubts) after the New York times expose which came after acceptance.

        1. fposte*

          It’s drastic to have made a commitment and then to back out on it. It’s a drastic thing that you can get away with sometimes, and it might be worth taking a hit for sometimes; I’m not saying this is death-penalty worthy. But I don’t think a newspaper article like that is a material change, and I think CS Student may be taking an accepted offer as a lighter thing than it is.

          If she were still entertaining the offer, I’d agree. But she’s not. She’s made her decision and made a commitment. We’d think the company sucked if they said “It turned out we weren’t that excited about you after all, so we’re backing out on our hire.”

          (If these long-term offer acceptances follow different guidelines, I’m willing to be corrected. But in general, an offer acceptance isn’t “unless I change my mind or something better comes along.”)

          1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

            I guess its a cultural and/or generational difference, but I simply do not buy into the notion that companies deserve unwavering loyalty and that an email saying “sure I’ll work for you” is binding regardless of new evidence that comes to light.

            It just doesn’t make any sense to me. If a company found out after making an offer that the applicant was a terrible person, no one would fault them for rescinding the offer. Even if the source was “just a newspaper article”. In fact we see companies going back on there agreements all the time. Pensions come to mind, and the abuse of bankruptcy.

            Heck. I’ve only been out of college 5 years but I have already been lied to and screwed over multiple times by every corporation I’ve worked for. My first internship out of college illegally 1099’d me. My second job out of college lied about the level of my position, then purposefully transferred me around departments to keep me from being eligible to apply for promotions while simultaneously having me complete work 2-3 grade levels above my current role. My current job, which I actually like, lied to me about the salary range. Ironically I wrote in about that and was told it was wrong of me to even think about wanting to try and fix that at my current company. It would be so wrong of me to renegotiate, despite the fact that I was the wronged party who was lied to and told there were benefits that didn’t materialize. I just don’t understand why it is wrong of an applicant to safeguard themselves, hedge their bets, or even re-negotiate based on new evidence when it is simply the reality of the job market today.

            1. fposte*

              I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences, but that that doesn’t make it a good idea for somebody to devalue their word of agreement.

              And *everybody* would fault a company for rescinding an offer as you describe–people here, for instance, would be up in arms. A company withdraws an offer because it read an article suggesting people from that hire’s college were sucky–nothing to do with the specific candidate or workplace? That would be major jackass behavior.

              As I said, that doesn’t mean CS Student can’t back out. But it’s not something to do lightly.

    5. BRR*

      First read responses to the article as well, then decide if you want to work there. If you pull out, you might be blacklisted there so take that into consideration.

      If you want to hunt, I’d job hunt and not quit but also have a certain amount of time where you will let them know. You don’t want to quit the day before you’re supposed to start.

      If other companies ask you if you’re interviewing anywhere else, search the site here for how to politely tell them it’s none of their business unless they want to make you an offer and want to know if they need to speed things along to beat another employer.

  119. Anon Accountant*

    I am at my wit’s end with our receptionist. When your phone extension is lit up on her switchboard that shows you are on the phone she will stand in your doorway and stare at you. “Jane Doe is on the phone asking for you”. Well please transfer her to my voicemail. Well she’s on the phone asking for you!

    All this happens while you are on the phone. If you ignore her she will walk closer to your desk and hover over your computer. She will actually hang over your computer monitor to get your attention while you are still on the phone.

    Our boss won’t do anything about her but several of us are fed up and ready to say something rude to her. Is there a better way to handle this before one of us snaps on her?

    1. Anon Accountant*

      I omitted – she will walk away from her desk to walk over (even down 2 hallways!) to find you when it’s obvious your extension is lit up. Another admin assistant checked this just to see if it was a technical issue and it isn’t. It’s just a behavioral issue.

    2. Colette*

      “I can’t talk now, I’m on a call.” And perhaps a big picture conversation – “Jane, I’ve noticed that you come into my office while I’m on the phone to tell me that someone else is calling for me. I can’t have conversations with you while I’m on the phone – it’s distracting and rude. When someone calls for me and I’m not available, please forward them to voicemail.”

      1. fposte*

        Yup. Coach her to the behavior you want. Her boss isn’t going to, she’s not going to change of her own accord, so it’s not going to happen if you don’t do it.

        1. Colette*

          It’s really important, too, that when she walks into your office, all you say is “I can’t talk now, I’m on a call”. If she persists, repeat it. You don’t want to start interrupting your call to debate the issue or to direct her about what to do.

          In other words, she’s doing this because it works. Stop making it work.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Sometimes we have to teach basic skills and knowledge. If she does not know- then she does not know, what can you do? You have to explain it to her. If she is doing this deliberately to be a jerk then she needs to cut the crap.

    3. LizaNW*

      Your receptionist has time to leave her desk (which I am assuming is ‘out front’) to see if you are on the phone? Why is she even trying to get your attention, instead of sending it to your extension and if you answer, you answer, and if it’s voicemail, it’s voicemail?

      When I was a receptionist I wasn’t allowed to leave the reception area – let alone the switchboard!

      1. Anon Accountant*

        She sets her own rules to phrase it nicely. She walks away from her desk for 10-15 mins at a time multiple times a day but management won’t say anything to her. She will tantrum and sob if they say anything to her about her behavior or something she does wrong.

        She keeps telling them she’s retiring in a few years and they’re waiting her out. But giving in to anything she wants in the meantime.

          2. Artemesia*

            Maybe go stand in his door when he is on the phone to tell him this. Don’t go away till he puts the phone down and talks to you.

    4. nep*

      Jeeeeeez — why oh why is she still the receptionist? Not too good at filling that role. Yikes.

    5. E*

      Has anyone explained that in your office (even if she’s used to something else) the protocol is to forward the call to voicemail? Then, if she doesn’t do this, you can follow up by forwarding your email request to your manager and explaining that you’ve asked nicely and this request isn’t being honored which distracts from your work duties.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        She was told to forward to voicemail when the person is unreachable but she disregards instructions she doesn’t want to hear. Usually when someone is very forceful/almost rude does she finally listen. If you ask her “please transfer to my voicemail when I’m with a client or on the phone” she won’t listen. If you become upset with her “Transfer to voicemail when I’m on another call! I’m not going to interrupt one call to take another. I keep asking you to do this!” then she listens. This actually happened with a coworker- that’s how he straightened out this matter with her. But it feels unprofessional to have to shout at her to get the message to sink in.

        One of the partners was really exasperated with her and told her to follow standard protocol of transferring to voicemail, take a message if they decline voicemail and don’t leave the front unattended. She came though for that partner but is still leaving the front often.

        1. Artemesia*

          Have a sign made with this on it: “I am obviously on the phone and can’t take a call. Transfer the call to my voice mail as I have asked you to do repeatedly.”

          And another with : ‘Please leave my office now and do this’

          And don’t say a word just hold up the sign and continue your call.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          “But it feels unprofessional to have to shout at her to get the message to sink in.”

          Then don’t shout, just simply say it. “Look you had this discussion with Harvey and you stopped doing this to Harvey. You must stop doing this to me. And you must stop right now.” Find your own professional yet firm tone of voice. Practice in front of your bathroom mirror if need be.

          This is not a waste of your time to develop this ability. Telling people NO effectively and firmly is a skill that you will find helpful over and over. Think about your bosses and their inability to use the NO word. It’s hurting them and they do not realize how much. Don’t fall in to this pit.

    6. Rebecca*

      I would be SO TEMPTED to get a ping pong paddle, and make a sign that says “VOICE MAIL” on it, and when she hovers, flip up the paddle and shove it in her face. If she persists, wave it some more. Then follow up with specific instructions about not hovering or pestering you when you’re already on the phone. This person needs to learn boundaries.

    7. Helen*

      Has anyone actually said anything to her about her actions not being the right way to handle calls when the recipients are on calls?

  120. D*

    So one of my coworkers is transferring departments in two weeks. I’m her back-up, so she will train me on her responsibilites and gradually get all of her responsibilities before she leaves. I would not mind if it was a gradual act over the next three weeks, but she dumped all but one of her responsibilities on me this week More or less she told me, “I’m deleting everything in my inbox and computer, so here’s all of my files you need for X and X, along with X, etc.” even though she’s not leaving until the 11th…which is really ironic. This, along with my manager telling me she (my manager) is okay with it because my coworker wants to leave earlier than the date given and it’s just. I know she’s my manager’s favorite, and we’re losing a valuable employee, but I’m facing a steep learning curve with all the things she gave and UGH.

    Sorry, frustrated. I’m conflicted she dumped everything already (she’ll do one task until she leaves) but I’m confused if how I’m feeling is justified since she IS leaving and I need to know this information anyway. Opinions?

    1. Colette*

      I actually think this is a good (albeit overwhelming) way to do things. This way you’re doing the tasks (which you’ll be doing in two weeks, anyway), and she’s still available when you have questions. I find I learn better when I do the work myself.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I tend to agree. She’s not using a great approach but she will be gone shortly. I guess that is what I would focus on, that I only have to get through the next two weeks of this. After that things will change.

  121. Angela Vickers*

    I’m headed back to work in about a week and I’m wondering if there are any good websites that have great recipes for lunch. I try to bring leftovers when I can (usually my favourite thing to bring for lunch), but when I don’t have leftovers I just LOATHE eating lunch. I’m not creative and my lunches are just blah. I’d love anything that goes beyond sandwiches too, I’ve never been able to enjoy non-fresh sandwiches.

    What are tasty meals you guys bring for lunch??

    1. D*

      Yesterday I made spicy green string beans with shrimp and rice and brought it for lunch, yum. I mainly go to the Wok of Life and Appetite for China, and this one Japanese recipe blog associated with Appetite for China (see a running theme here?).

    2. Kyrielle*

      Google “school lunches” for some good ideas, too. A lot of what they propose, I don’t think I could get my (young) kids to eat without paying them, but me? Yes please! :) (Though I stick mine in the refrigerator rather than relying on ice packs.) Momables has some good recipes, and while the meal plans are paid, there are a couple free samples and some public recipes.

      I like to bring a salad with a bit of meat shredded over it – preferably good meat, but lunch meat will do in a pinch. Quinoa or rice with something over it. Roasted brussel sprouts reheat really well in the microwave, too.

      Sometimes you can make something ahead and freeze it, then bring it in and reheat, so extra leftovers. Only if it’s food that freezes well, of course, but a lot do.

      Pack a tortilla or two and a package of sandwich fixings, and put them together at lunch time.

    3. Colette*

      I’m intrigued by salad-in-a-jar – basically you layer the salad ingredients so that sogginess is minimized. I’ve never been motivated enough to actually make them, though.

      1. LizB*

        I do salad-in-a-jar pretty frequently, and I love it! I make four at a time, and they keep for a week in the fridge. The layering method I use is: dressing on the bottom; sturdy ingredients that can handle being soaked in dressing (chickpeas, cucumber, bell pepper, radish); heavy ingredients that wouldn’t do as well being soaked in dressing (quinoa, pasta, apple); greens; light “accent” ingredients (chopped nuts, dried fruit, cheese) on the very top. When you’re ready to eat up, just shake well and enjoy! I prefer to pour mine out into a bowl after shaking rather than eat straight out of the jar, so I just keep a plastic bowl in my office and wash it in the break room sink after I use it.

    4. T3k*

      Not really a full on meal, per se, but I pack my own “lunchable” in that I buy my favorite crackers, cheese, and lunch meat and divided it up for quite a few lunches along with some fruit and chocolate and a few snacks (like nuts) for later on. I don’t want any hot meals during summer time and it’s easy to put together.

    7. msbadbar*

      I love making a giant bowl of pasta salad so I have about three days of leftovers for lunch. My fav recipe is orzo with tomatoes, feta, olive oil, pine nuts, and whatever else you want (cucumbers and spinach or basil or yummy).

      Pinterest is a great place to look for lunch recipes, too!

    8. Lizzy*

      If you like watching YouTube videos, I am big fan of the Domestic Geek. She has great recipes for salads, sandwiches, wraps and meal prep videos.

  122. Torn*

    Any advice on my current situation is appreciated. Currently I work at a non profit in DC. I would probably have enough motivation to be job hunting already (opportunities for growth/advancement are not great, have been there for several years, some tough personalities to work for, etc.) but a series of recent staffing issues has made the situation awful; our stretched -thin staff keeps shrinking with no light at the end of the tunnel. (and frankly I’ve lost faith in management for their poor handling of this. Even presuming we staff up, I don’t want to stay)

    I am currently interviewing for another non profit job in Chicago. Assuming I get an offer, I expect the salary will be less though the benefits will be similar. It’s a bigger org and there is more growth potential, but the position is more of a lateral move responsibility-wise and title-wise. So my questions…

    1) Thoughts on the financial side (moving costs aside)? I’ve tried using online cost of living calculators, all of which say Chicago is much cheaper, and salary estimates, which show salaries as less than DC but those numbers tend to be less consistent. Frankly, it seems like there is a good range within which I can accept a lower salary and have a higher quality of life, but I am wondering if taking a lower salary is bad and if so how bad? For example, I always avoid giving salary history in job interviews , but even if my hand was forced, shouldn’t a good company recognize that the pay cut might reflect local and job-specific conditions? Or am I super naive?

    2) In general, am I crazy? I waver between thinking that my current situation is a dead end and that I need to get out ASAP or that I need to hold out for a better offer/opportunity? Thoughts on when lateral moves are OK? I’d be curious how other folks have approached such decisions.

    1. DC Alumnus*

      Almost any city is cheaper than DC! The main cost difference is rental/real estate. You can point that out and get hired at the top of a range

      I took a huge pay cut when I left DC, so if you are really interested in money your best bet is to stay put and look for a DC or NYC or SF job.

      Moving to an equal job is okay. A pattern of progressively more responsibility in positions would only be necessary if you apply for a management job. If you’re not ready for management right now this minute, a lateral move now isn’t a bad thing. You have a good reason for moving on.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I wouldn’t worry too much about taking the pay cut if you know you can live comfortably in Chicago and you will like the new job.

      I’ve taken a number of pay cuts over the years, and I have never regretted a single one. I’ve taken pay cuts to get out of a toxic work environment, to change fields, to work at a place I believe in. Especially if you intend on changing jobs every 3-10 years, don’t worry about getting locked into a lower salary.

    3. Artemesia*

      I moved to Chicago a few years ago from a big southern city and it is like I died and went to heaven. Chicago is a wonderful place to live; housing costs are much more reasonable than DC; public transport is good and its neighborhood organization means you can easily find a place where you can do basic errands on foot on pretty streets. The cultural offerings are unparalleled and easy to access. Tonight I will be going to the 14th classical concert free in Grant Park that I have attended this year. The Museums are fabulous and memberships reasonably priced. I have lived in the Northwest, the South and briefly in the midwest previously and Chicago is the most beautiful and livable city I have lived in yet. I have kids who have lived in DC, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco and LA and Chicago and Chicago is the sweet spot between livability and cost.

      If the job has a career development upside, I’d leap for that in a minute.

  123. voluptuousfire*

    Anyone see any wacky job ads lately? I included the requirements below for an assistant to a CEO role I saw on Craigslist:

    Requirements:

    • Dress miniskirts, high heels, promiscuous, Must know how to give back massages.
    • This is a long term position and need someone long term.
    • Great pay, flexibility

    I think they confused “assistant” with “sugar baby.”

    2. Bekx*

      I saw one looking for a housekeeper. Similar things — short skirt, high heels…Must be available from m-f 8-5 because that’s when his wife was at work and he worked at home…

    3. Nanc*

      I still remember one from The Metro (a weekly in the SF Bay Area–is it still around?) from about 1985 (yep, I’m old!)
      Wanted: well-endowed lady to vacuum my house once a week. Must work topless. Must be between 18 and 75. $50/week.

      That ad ran for six months or so. I still wonder if the contract ran out or if the position was actually filled.

    4. W.*

      Wow! Although I did actually see Sugarbaby advertised on a job site – complained and had it removed.
      Umm ridiculous list of overwhelming abilties – speak Arabic, have an Ma in obscure such and such, know all these different software processes, have x, y,z years experience – and then the salary is laughable. Similar job ad media related, poor pay – asked for Space engineering experience (What?)
      I do see so many if these – would love if this what a regular thing we all shared :)

        1. voluptuousfire*

          I’m a Little Teapot, I submitted it to you before I even posted it here. Your blog was the first thing I thought of.

  124. Malissa*

    When someone is contacting you out of the blue about a job, it’s okay to ask for the salary range up front right?

    1. Colette*

      I think you’d want to be careful how you’d word the question – maybe something like “Before we go further, I want to make sure we’re on the same page about salary. Can you share the range you have budgeted for the position?”

      You’d want to be prepared with how much you’d want, too. You don’t want to set expectations about what you’d accept and then turn them down over salary if they make an offer in the range you’ve given.

      1. BRR*

        When they contact you they need to wine and dine you. If they don’t, i’s likely they just want another contact.

    3. It's Your Life*

      Of course. It is OK to ask what does the job pay.
      The information used to be right on the job listings.
      Why waste the time of everyone involved?

      Pushy *recruiters* have no problem asking “What’s the least you’ll take?”

      In Florida the wages here are a joke.
      I hate talking to these people on the phone, let alone in person.
      Why should the salary be a surprise?

      OFF TOPIC:
      After a long interviewing process that included an interview with @8 people, one county governmental agency tells me that the job pays $10 an hour, despite having experience. The absolute bottom of the range. Her tone was really nasty. I stopped returning her calls. Yes, I could have walked to work.
      The pay was so low…One of my neighbors worked there and she had trouble paying her rent. They let her go after years of working there over some squabble with one of the women there.
      I did not see one single man working in the entire administrative office of at least 50 people. That should have been my first clue about the low pay.

      Additionally, the “job finders” at the employment center have the nerve to ask if you want to volunteer for this agency, for FREE.

      Don’t get me started on the benefits. For one full year (trial period), the classification is Temporary to avoid paying for any benefits.

      Ugh.

  125. Interview Anxiety*

    Hi all, curious if anyone has tips on how to overcome interview anxiety and “close the deal.” In the past 2 years I’ve gone on at least 25 interviews. A few times I’ve made it to the final 2-3 candidates but no job offers! Yesterday I had an interview with a company I’ve been dying to work for. I think it went OK. I walked in confident and calm and gave good behavioral question responses with very specific examples from past work experience. The only negatives were: I flubbed one of the more left field/on the spot answers towards the end. I was told by HR they’d reposted the job on another job board as they felt they hadn’t gotten a large enough volume of candidates and I got the feeling the Director wasn’t a fan (but that last one could be my paranoia). I have another interview next week with the head of the department who seems to be the deciding factor as he has the most tenure at the property. The Director may sit in on this one as well. Curious if anyone has examples of what candidates have done to solidify themselves as THE candidate? Or as a job seeker, what have you done to ensure you received an offer? Should I come in with a list of ideas on how to improve areas of their business? This is a marketing role where the key performance indicator will be generating additional revenue for the hotel. Thanks in advance for your advice!

    1. Graciosa*

      I understand wanting a technique or tactic to make sure you get the job, but there really aren’t any. Bringing in an unsolicited list of ideas to improve the business may be perceived as a positive (proactive, good ideas) or a negative (presumptuous, indirect or inadvertent criticism of current state or culture) or just weird (why did you spend that much time on something the interviewers didn’t ask for and don’t care about). You just don’t – can’t – know how this employer will view this.

      There are things you can do to increase your chances (prompt, professional, prepared, etc.), but *nothing* guarantees to turn you into “THE” candidate. Being calm and confident was probably a help, and it sounds like you were properly prepared for the interview, but don’t overthink this or get so focused on getting the job that you forget that interviewing goes both ways.

      The interview process should allow *both* sides to determine whether or not this is a good fit. If a key stakeholder doesn’t like you, that is going to have an impact. It doesn’t matter if she doesn’t like you because of your choice in pens or the color of your shirt – there is not likely to be anything you can do in the next interview to fix it.

      This isn’t meant to be discouraging; think of it as freeing. There will always be unknown factors in the decision making that you cannot control or predict – so just let go of any hope of doing either. Be yourself – your best professional self, but still yourself – and take the opportunity to learn about the company and figure out if you want to work there.

      Good luck.

      1. OP*

        Thanks, Graciosa. Not discouraging at all, this helps. I suppose it really is just about chemistry, experience and maybe luck! I’ll definitely try to focus more on building rapport with my interviewers since at this point they have to have some idea of my experience and qualifications. Fingers crossed!

  126. Gingerbread*

    What should I say when responding to an email that I received almost a month ago from an employer offering a phone interview? Should I give an excuse as to why I got back to her so late? I applied to the job over a year ago and wasn’t planning on responding to her recent invitation to a phone interview since the job isn’t in line with what I want to do in my career, but I can’t handle working at my current job anymore so I’d like to take her up on her offer.

    1. HigherEd Admin*

      At this point, I would assume you are likely out of the running. I’m sure they’ve moved along in their process, and I’m not quite sure how to phrase an email at this point that doesn’t make you look bad. If you wanted to, you could try something like:

      My sincerest apologies for not responding to your interview request sooner. I would be delighted to speak with you about the role, if it is still available and if I am still under consideration for the opportunity.

      But honestly, if I received this email a month after I sent the initial interview request, I would just trash it.

      1. The IT Manager*

        +1 Good verbiage – acknowledge the lack of timeliness and say you’re interested.

        It can’t hurt you, but try not to pin your hopes on it.

    2. HollyS*

      Anything over a few days, in my opinion, is too late. I’ve had interviewers move on same day, after I didn’t answer the phone the first time! With that said, it never hurts to reach out. If you’re comfortable bending (ok breaking) the truth you could always say you were out travelling and just saw the email. Ask if they’re still conducting interviews.

    3. Gingerbread*

      I definitely don’t have my hopes up about it, but I figured it’d be worth a shot. Thank you all!

    4. BRR*

      Might as well try. She took a while so I definitely don’t feel bad trying. I would say it went into your spam folder.

    5. Artemesia*

      I think your only shot if the position is not filled would be to claim that the email got caught in your spam filter and you just saw it when reviewing the spam file. Since you had not just recently sent in the application, you weren’t expecting an email so that is at least plausible. I had an invitation to speak in Hawaii that I missed for computer related reasons; of course it was too late that time, but by indicating the problem and my future interest, I got invited for the next year and spent 8 lovely days in Hawaii after the speaking gig.

  127. retail woes*

    Thoughts on how to escape retail to go back to the Corporate world? I am doing an office job – but for a retail store v. a law firm or office

  128. Intrepid Intern*

    I got an interview. I did well at it– better than any previous interviews. I can already tell that I won’t get the job, though: I was fine, but not outstanding, and “fine” won’t be enough. I just want to be employed. Blargh.

  129. Anonsie*

    This might make me sound really childish, but help me out here. If you are like me and you plan out when you’re going to do tasks during the week based on your availability and unrelated to their deadlines (before the deadlines but based on when you think is the best time for something, like: I have the afternoon open on Tuesday so I’m going to work on big project then, Wednesday is scattered so I’ll save all the little tasks for then, etc), what do you do if someone is applying pressure on you to do something of theirs early… Right before you were planning to do it?

    I hate it when this happens because I don’t want them to think that if they come by and insist I drop everything and do their stuff right now that I’ll just do it, but then I don’t want to put it off for no reason because that causes delays as well.

    1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Have you read service excellence is as easy as pie? I found all of the topics related to managing expectations very useful for managing my ad hoc requests.

      First I would make sure you are really clear with your own supervisor about what (s)he expects of you. I’d also check with them about how you plan to communicate this (if you are very junior to them/have concerns).

      The way I handle this is to be very clear up front with everyone who can possible give me work that my goal is to get all their requests completed within 5 business days. I also respond to all as needed requests the same day (by literally setting aside time on my calendar to do so). I let them know I’ve received the request and expect to have it complete by (date I expect to finish + a couple of days for wiggle room).

      For the most part this eliminates most of the ones who would come by and demand I “do it now” but sometimes you have people who simply don’t understand that you have work to do unrelated to them. The best you can do with them is keep in communication with your direct supervisor and be clear about when you can finish it.

      1. Anonsie*

        Ah that’s the sticky wicket. These people are all my supervisors, and they all want more of my time than I can reasonably balance out amongst the others. Some are pretty relaxed about this being reality, but a few think it’s bogus and want me to move other people’s work around to give them more time and more urgent time as well. So giving them updates, having a date by which I’m going to have things done, etc. doesn’t change those people’s behavior because what they really want is to jump the queue I guess.

        1. Anonsie*

          And before you suggest talking to management about how to balance this and establish expectations, I’ve tried many times. It’s always been put back on me, so here I am trying to figure out how to do it.

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Also I wouldn’t spend a lot of time justifying the whys of your prioritization to everyone giving you work. Unless they are literally a ll shared managers. Only my manager knows my full workload, and everyone else giving me work just has to trust I am doing a good job prioritizing. If they have a problem with my timeline they can talk to my boss who can vouch for me, but typically little is gained from “Complain-Explaining” your workload in an attempt to garner empathy and understanding. At least it never worked out for me. : )

      1. Anonsie*

        Unless they are literally a ll shared managers.

        They are! That’s part of the problem. Also I don’t tell them the specifics I have above, that’s for y’all’s benefit in getting what I’m talking about with my schedule. I might say I have x similar tasks in the pipeline and I’ll get to theirs when those are wrapped up, which should be y amount of time– but only if that’s somehow explicitly relevant to their request. Usually I just give a time by which it will be done or a status will be given, but then I have people who agree to that and then before that time is up come by and say they didn’t think I should really take that whole time and they want it done now and why isn’t it done already.

        Then I feel like, well, I was going to do it today and get it back to them. But now I’m afraid that if I do that, they will think that I really was just slacking on it and only did it because they put their foot down. Or they’ll think that this is a good tactic for them to use in the future to get things done sooner than I’ve promised. I just don’t want to reinforce people agreeing to my timeline and then changing their mind later and expecting I’ll just go along with it as long as they press hard enough.

        1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          Ugh! That sucks! What a crappy situation. I’ve had 2 bosses once and it was miserable! Miserable!!!! I’m afraid I do not have any advice except to try and build good rapport and/or meet with them together for performance evaluations on a somewhat regular basis.

    3. Kyrielle*

      Honestly, I would just respond, “I plan everything and it has a spot in my schedule. As it happens, X request is due to start as soon as I finish this task I’m working on now, so if I can get back to that, I’ll be working on yours shortly.”

      And be similarly honest when they pull that and it’s not the next thing up. Enough of a pattern and they’ll know stopping by doesn’t work, except perhaps to delay things a little bit whilst you talk to them.

    4. AnnieNonymous*

      I’d say, “Yep, I’m planning on getting to it later today.” You’re telling them that you have your own process in place, but that they can still trust that the work will get done.

      1. Anonsie*

        That hasn’t really done anything to deflect this in the past, though. That was the first thing I tried, and then I would stick to my schedule, and I actually think that’s why I’m in this mess now. People got the impression that if they came over and insisted I do it sooner, I would clear time and do it immediately– thinking the “I was planning on doing that today” was BS. So now every time *someone wants something, they just ignore whatever timeline I actually give them and just start pressuring me to do it immediately around when they actually want it.

        *Not everyone does this, there are just a couple of specific folks who have taken up the habit. Everyone else accepts the timelines I give them.

        1. Colette*

          What about reiterating the timeline you gave them? I.e. “As we discussed, I’ll have that to you by X. Has something changed on your end?”

    5. Beezus*

      If they ask right when I was planning to do it anyway, I give them a big smile and say, “Actually, that was the next thing on my to-do list, so you’re in luck today!”

      If someone routinely applies pressure to me to do their tasks ahead of everyone else’s, I’ll find another time to resist that. One time doesn’t bother me, it’s when it’s repeated and it seems to be planning-related and not business-related. If it’s really bad, I’ll address the pattern itself – “This isn’t a task I’d normally do on a same-day basis, but you’ve needed a quick turnaround time the last few times you’ve asked me. Can you help me understand the reason for the urgency? I have a lot on my plate and normally I’d expect two or three days to work something like this in.”

    6. Artemesia*

      “I have a really pressed schedule right now and every minute is accounted for, but I have already booked this for tomorrow morning and should have something to show you by tomorrow afternoon.” After a while you will get a reputation for being well organized and meeting deadlines as a result.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I see what you are saying, you don’t want to encourage bad behavior just because their timing almost matches your timing.

      I think that acting oblivious to their “emergency” is the route to go. As one poster said, “You’re in luck, I just happened to have your project next on my schedule.” Other times, when it is TRUE, just say, “Sorry there are three people ahead of you, I planned to start your task after lunch.”

      Do these people all have the same boss? If yes, maybe they need to talk to the boss about hiring someone else to handle all these emergencies. Just a thought.

      OTH, if you can kind of figure out WHY everything is an emergency for these people, you might gain some inroads. It could be for example that Bob feels if he does not come up to you and demand his task get done immediately, then you will not listen to him. Going one step further, Bob treats everyone like this because he feels people don’t listen to him. So you frame your answer to Bob a bit different that you answer Sue. Sue could be the new kid on the block and has new job jitters. You might be able to talk her down and get her to stop with the fake emergencies with one or two brief and reassuring conversations.

      But my punchline is don’t start down that road of delaying a task, just to teach people a lesson. Over time, that really erode a person’s mindset and really turn a person off to a job. In short, it’s a good way to hasten your own burn out. Play a fair game, keep it honest. Let them learn to bend. It’s their problem not yours.

      1. Really?*

        Do these people all have the same boss? If yes, maybe they need to talk to the boss about hiring someone else to handle all these emergencies. Just a thought.

        Good Answer.

        A friend of mine worked for several bosses at a law firm. She had to be very firm and assertive with these multiple strong personalities. Some was always behaving like an ignored child.
        These cheapies tend not to want to have to replace and train the 5 assistants it would take to do your work.
        So, you have that on your side.

        Can you find a better job with just ONE boss?

  130. Dana*

    Ugh, someone up thread reminded me. I have been seeing the same family doctor my entire life. I didn’t go for a few years because I didn’t have insurance as a young adult. That was of course the time when they went from paper records to electronic. When I went back last year for the first time, they asked me for my vaccination records. Do people normally keep their own records when they’re not changing doctors? I told them I got everything done at this very office but they were like “we don’t have them. can you check at home and bring them in if you have them?” I don’t know how to tell them that they have to have the records and I don’t, and just to be sure, I checked with my mom and she was just as confused as I was. Do they just destroy stuff if you don’t show up for 5 years? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to mail them to me or something?

    1. Anonsie*

      They should still have them, but who knows how terrible their record keeping process is. You should prod and say, hey, these would have been part of your old paper records system. Where are those? You need to find them and update my electronic record.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      Generally if you want your records you have to request them, and I would imagine it’s pretty standard practice to destroy records after X amount of years.

      I have a lot of mine because my mom was always on top of it, we moved a few times when I was growing up and doctors typically charge you if you get them sent to your address. So she would usually ask when checking out for a copy then and wouldn’t get charged.

      I keep mine now, because the doctors I go to give me a summary of the visit on check-out, which makes it super easy to keep with my medical receipts.

      Although I did screw up a couple of years ago when I switched doctors, apparently my old office never sent my vaccinations with my records to the new one, and the new office kept asking me to contact the old to get them…never did, so now I have no idea if I got one of those boosters you need in your early twenties or not.

    4. Kyrielle*

      I lost all my childhood and young adult medical and dental and vision records because the practices went out of business and/or destroyed them as I aged out, and thus I learned, no, they don’t necessarily have to keep them (and in fact it’s not cost-effective to, in some cases, even if the practice doesn’t go out of business).

      At this point, I’d ask them to check their old paper records. If they no longer have them, or no longer have yours, then those records are gone for good. They can do blood tests to see what you currently have immunity to and what vaccinations need updating, which is what I ultimately had to have done.

    5. blackcat*

      My doctor had off site storage (maybe outsourced?), and you had to pay a fee to send a person to go look for your records. It took like 2 weeks and was a pain, but they did it.

      I’d ask about older records in off site storage–ask a receptionist/admin, not a nurse.

      Another option is that, depending on where you live, your school system may have the vaccination records. They are sometimes required by law to keep your records and should still have them. If they don’t, a higher up county/state agency might. This is how my husband tracked down his for grad school. I had a hell of a time tracking down all of mine for grad school, but my institution has a great system where they organize everything digitally, and let you download a lovely pdf. They do this specifically so that students only have to do the vaccination record treasure hunt once in their life.

      FWIW, I do now keep copies of important stuff. Now everything’s electronic, and most doctors who I see have a digital system so I can get a data dump from an online portal. And now I have a thumb drive with a ton of x-rays, chronicling exactly how clumsy I was in my early 20s…

    6. asteramella*

      They can and will destroy them. The administrative burden of keeping every single record of every single person who has ever visited a practice would just be too much, even in electronic form.

      Google “(your state) medical record retention law” for details specific to you.

    7. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      My son is transferring colleges and needed his vaccination records. And, his pediatric practice had closed a few years back. So, no records.

      Apparently this isn’t as uncommon as you’d think. His GP ordered a bunch of blood tests, which our insurance paid for, and all was sorted out.

      FWIW, these blood tests were very expensive! very! so good thing insurance paid for them. I’d make sure your insurance will cover before getting them. The bill was thousands of dollars. O.o (although insurance probably only paid a few hundred, you know how that goes.)

    8. Artemesia*

      I find this incredibly annoying too. Computerization has meant less service and competence at dental and medical offices. The main effect of all this computerization is that they now break down appointments so they can bill for every tiny task they do — it is all about charging you (and insurance companies are all about then denying those charges) e.g. I had a particular workup for a medical problem; basically like a full exam but focused and one tiny procedure that took 10 seconds literally got billed at $350 although it was integral to the exam. My daughter got billed for ‘operating theater’ when in the doctor’s office, they removed a small spot on her back for biopsy. No question that this was an added procedure so I don’t complain about billing for it, but ‘operating theater’ when it was done in the same office the rest of the exam was done in?

      I had the same problem you are having with my dentist. They do computerized X-rays but the dentist I saw until 3 years ago when I moved doesn’t keep them on file past a couple of years. I asked them what they do if someone needs them to ID the body.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Echoing almost everyone else here. The only proof I have of my vaccinations is a little scrap piece of paper my mother wrote on. I called the doctor’s office, “Oh we only keep those records for seven years.” I was in my late forties at the time. Those records were long gone. To attend college up here, you had to have proof of your shots if you wanted to go full time. At that point (15 plus years ago) colleges were willing to MAKE you go get the shots all over again. At which point, I was told by my doctor, “DO NOT do this, it will not go well for you.” That was a huge kerfuffle and a bit unnerving to experience.

  131. Anonymous4Today*

    I worked at a communications firm years ago. I did a great job, but when my good boss left she was replaced by someone who was good at her non-management duties but completely incompetent as a manager and, quite frankly, evil. As in, if she knew I had to leave early to see my kid in a little league game would make me stay late doing nothing — NOTHING — so I’d miss it. She never let me take vacation I was owed, resulting in me missing the last Thanksgiving my grandmother was alive for, and I could go on… and on… and on.

    Even after all these years my blood pressure rises because it’s so upsetting how badly she treated us on her team. She really seemed to enjoy it, too. We went from no one ever crying at work to someone crying every single day.

    The higher-ups wouldn’t do anything about it, so I finally quit without a job lined up because she was screaming at me to come in while I had pneumonia, required doctor’s notes then claimed they were fake notes (even though I insisted HR verify them), told many, many people in the company that I was faking it, etc. I came in under threat of losing my job and ended up in the hospital.

    When I quit, I got well. I think if I had stayed I would’ve been sick even longer.

    She’s no longer in charge, but a former colleague of mine is. He’s someone I respect. (The other people who let the former manager run amok are also gone.) There’s a job opening that I want, and he’s the one making the decision. The problem is I feel I left him with a bad impression because things got so bad (and then I was very sick) that I was very, VERY emotional in the last 6 months of that job.

    This colleague worked out of a different office and didn’t see what was going on firsthand. I vented to him a lot back then because he was discreet and wasn’t going to tell my boss or anyone else what I said.

    Now, I’m afraid that my emotional side, which is the last part of me he saw, will keep me from getting this job. I want to address it with him. Any advice as to how?

    1. fposte*

      Are you intending to reach out to him directly to apply for the job, or were you thinking of including something in a cover letter or interview comment?

      In general, I’d keep in mind that what you say to him isn’t likely to make a lot of difference, so my inclination is either to say something briefly or not at all. And you really don’t want to bring up your past performance in what looks like an attempt to excuse it or distance yourself from it. What I might do is frame it as part of why you think he’s somebody who’d be good to work for: “I’ve been grateful for your support when the job got sticky, and I know you’d be somebody I’d find it rewarding to work for.”

      1. Anonymous4Today*

        I intend to call him directly since I know him and we got along well. We’ve also run into each other a few times since I left that job.

        1. fposte*

          Then I’d lean toward the framing I suggested; then focus on all your subsequent achievements that demonstrate how amazing you were at your jobs since then.

  132. ella*

    I know I should save job descriptions when I apply for things, but I didn’t, and I just got email for an interview (yay!) for something I applied for six weeks ago. Should I email and ask for a job description now (I’ve tried to find it, or even an older version, on Google and failed), or go to the interview and do my best? I remember generalities of the job description but not specifics.

    1. voluptuousfire*

      I say just ask them. Chances are they may have updated the description since you last applied, so asking wouldn’t be verboten. Ask them politely if they can send you and updated job description.

      I send myself the job description and keep it in a folder in my Gmail. It helps quite a bit when I’m on the go and I’m contacted about a role. I can look it up on my phone and know who’s what.

      1. Dana*

        I’ve started copy and pasting the job description on another page of the cover letter I save (not the one I send). That way I also have exactly what I said to them as well.

        1. BRR*

          I keep folders for each job with my resume, cover letter, and I save the webpage as a pdf. Now if only this got me somewhere.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d probably just in cold. I doubt they’ll grill you on the details of the job description… and, honestly, most of those descriptions are generic and have only about 50% to do with what you’d be doing on a day-to-day basis, so ask lots of practical questions.

  133. Colette*

    I’ve had a lot of vacation-y things going on over the last month – my nieces came here, then I went to my mom’s – and when I got back on Wednesday of last week, I decided to start seriously networking on Monday. Wednesday night I got an email for an interview. I interviewed that week, started the security/reference checks on Monday, and got tentatively offered the job today. It’s only for a few months, but yay!

    1. fposte*

      You must have a great network! Glad you found something you like, and with a network like that, who knows what a few months could lead to?

      1. Colette*

        I actually interviewed the week before my “serious networking” plan, but it came about from a casual “how’s it going” email to a former colleague before I left. Definitely good news.

  134. ZoyaMars*

    Hi–I’m pretty new here, so I’m not 100% sure on how everything works, but it seems like this is an appropriate post for an open thread.

    I was recently fired after working only 6 weeks as a receptionist at a relatively small real estate agency. It came out of nowhere, and was kind of a personal and professional blow–I’d given up a stable part-time job working with people I liked because this was full time, and seemed like it would be more appropriate for me (I’ve only been out of college a year, and worked as a cashier for most of my first year out), and they had already paid for me to take real estate licensing classes. I was also told essentially that I wasn’t being a responsible employee, and that I couldn’t be trusted with sensitive information–something that I’ve literally never had a supervisor say to me in any of the internships or paying jobs I’ve had since I was 17; the feedback I get is usually positive, and I’ve never been fired before now. I’ve been looking on the bright side–it really wasn’t a good fit for me or the employer, and I was definitely struggling to acclimate myself to the position, so this was probably a decent decision for everyone. But it does seem odd to me that I was fired with basically no warning, after getting what felt like only sporadic feedback from our branch manager (the woman who fired me). So I figured I should ask some people who have been in the workforce for awhile, and aren’t family/friends (who obviously have an investment in telling me that this was unjust) if this was actually a strange thing. I also wanted to ask if it was strange that my former manager said she would be happy to provide me with a reference. I’m grateful that she wants to help me find a job that’s better suited to my skill set and working style, but it strikes me as odd that she would call me unreliable and then say she would give a positive reference for me.

    Has anyone seen things like this happen, at either end? I’d be grateful for any thoughts/advice!

    1. fposte*

      Sorry about the termination, Zoya; that’s a blow.

      It does sound like they didn’t manage the process very smoothly; that’s not unheard of, especially with a small office. Ultimately I think this came down to fit, and they didn’t do a good job of articulating that. A reference isn’t unheard of in a situation like that; I would, however, check with the former manager before I used her name to clarify the kind of reference she felt she could give you.

      And I don’t think it’s just or unjust; I think it just is.

    2. AVP*

      In general, firing should not feel like it’s coming out of the blue – a decent manager will give you regular feedback and ideally let you know if you’re doing something fire-worthy so you have a chance to fix the problem.

      The exception to this would be if you committed a one-time error so egregious that they just have to let you go right then and there, like punching someone or stealing money. I have no idea what happened in your case, but I am intrigued by the comment about not being trustworthy with sensitive data – that sounds very particular. Could something have happened with client data that you don’t know about, or maybe didn’t notice at the time? Did something get posted to social media that they didn’t want? That just seems like a weird thing for them to mention if they didn’t have a reason to be concerned about it, but maybe it was something you didn’t realize you were or weren’t doing?

      1. ZoyaMars*

        Okay, so to give background on that piece: I can’t know what it looked like to them, but from my side what seemed to be happening was that agents would leave things with very personal client info lying open on my desk. I made that mistake once, was spoken to about it, and didn’t make it again (to the best of my knowledge) but my desk got treated like public property a lot.

        1. fposte*

          Six weeks is really quite short. I’m still thinking, given what you say about fit and struggling, that this was an “It’s just not working out” situation, and that the “responsibility” thing was just one instance in a larger picture where you just weren’t what they’d wanted in that position.

          2. ZoyaMars*

            Yeah, that’s what I think too–this job was already giving me bad anxiety, after only a month. So while it wasn’t an ideal way to go out, I doubt I would’ve stayed for long voluntarily either.

          1. ZoyaMars*

            I forgot to put a client’s application in a folder would be the incident that happened once. Agents left files with client info on my desk and…were told not to do that? There was no identity theft going on, if that’s what you’re asking. It certainly wasn’t conscientious on their part, and maybe I could’ve been more vigilant about who was using my space, but these weren’t incidents that were analogous to stealing from the company, or punching someone. And all of those agents are still employed, FWIW.

            1. ZoyaMars*

              *Different agents would do this once and awhile, in incidents unrelated to the time it happened to me. It wasn’t all one incident, and only once was it a result of something I did.

          2. ZoyaMars*

            Ok, ignore my other responses because I realized that they’re fantastically unclear about everything. Initially I didn’t want to go into every detail about my work, but this one was hard to describe without details:

            Sensitive documents=apartment applications. They have SSNs on them, meaning you have to be careful about where you leave them. One day, I accidentally left one out. My manager told me to be more careful, and so I was. But occasionally agents would leave an application on my desk while they were busy doing something else, like talking to another client or posting ads or whatever. If my manager saw this, she would tell them not to do this. I think sometimes it may have seemed like it was a result of my carelessness, not the agents’–thus “not knowing what it looked like on their end.” That’s what “not being careful with sensitive documents” meant in the context of that office. If it ever meant anything else, I was never made aware of that situation.

            1. silence covered the sky*

              Okay, thanks. In that case: your ex-management are jerks. I’ll restate what others have said: in general, in a well-run work environment with competent management, getting fired should never come as a surprise.

              Actually, reading between the lines, it sounds to me like you were fired for some unknown personal or business reason: maybe they were having trouble finding the money to pay you. Or maybe they wanted to hire one of the agents’ daughters for the job.

              I’d attempt to look at it as a positive thing: hopefully you’ll find a better job working with better people.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      At my first “real” job out of college I came into an environment during a period of significant staff turnover. There were miscommunications about what projects I was taking over. My boss met with me to clarify this and set up expectations (tasks to compete within the next week). I completed all the tasks ahead of schedule and was told I was “doing much better.” Two days after that conversation they fired me.

      So yes, it happens, and it’s not just you. Looking back that workplace was super dysfunctional and they did me a favor by firing me (though at the time it seemed horribly depressing).

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think this is what will happen for ZM, too. Give it some time, Zoya, and you will probably realize there was a bunch of stuff going on there. Healthy work environments do not give you anxiety after one month. Had you stayed you probably would have been needing some medical help because there was just too much wrong with that job.

    4. Pull up your Socks!*

      Take your real estate training and bit of experience an get a job at an apartment rental agency.
      Receptiontist or even real estate agent. Look up online how to transfer or get your license.
      Rewrite your resume. List your transferable skills under SKILLS, or such.

      “Staff Reduction” is the phrase that you might want use.
      Apply for unemployment. You will most likely qualify for it. You did not willfully do anything wrong.

      Use a coworker as a reference. That industry tends to be small.
      Good Luck!

  135. Lizzy*

    I just got out of a job interview where the application I had to fill out while waiting in the reception area asked me to include my elementary and middle school in the education section. As someone who is almost 30 and has a graduate degree, this made me chuckle. I was almost considering calling my mother because I had trouble remembering.

    On the bright side, the HR Manager told me in the interview that she was impressed with me and was going to move me forward to the next round. Wohooo! My current job has been hell for me, so I am grateful I have been getting good response so far in my job hunt.

    1. Graciosa*

      Elementary and middle school? Wow.

      Possibly they need to weed out anyone who had trouble following instructions on how to line up for recess.

        1. Nanc*

          I used to have a great t-shirt that said Plays Well With Scissors on the front and Runs With Others on the back

          I wonder if I could buy another one . . .

          That said, my middle school experience was 40 years ago and I’m pretty sure the school closed awhile back.

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      My spouses pet peeve two. They want the name and address of elementary and middle school sometimes. Why do you want this??? I have a college degree…..

      1. Kyrielle*

        I feel for military kids or other frequent movers faced with that. “Um, which ones?” (“All of them.” “…I need more space.”)

      2. Not Karen*

        I was homeschooled in elementary school, so the address would’ve been my home address at the time…

      3. Lizzy*

        Thankfully they didn’t ask for the full address; just the city. Granted, I could have used my smartphone to look it up, but it was tedious enough trying to remember what years I attended.

    3. Artemesia*

      don’t get too confident, who knows what Miss Jillian your 4th grade teacher is going to have to say about you and that paste brush incident.

  136. LiveAndLetDie*

    In my time here both as a lurker and an active commenter, I have noticed that on the whole the commentariat here tends to err on the side of the employee/candidate rather than the employer. For instance, just in today’s posts — the sentiments in the comments for the chronic rescheduler seemed to be a lot of bending over backwards to find a way where it was okay that the candidate was being so demanding of the OP’s time and energy. And in the recent one about the employee who admitted to half-assing his job, there are a lot of people leaping on the OP for not giving him more chances to fix his mistakes.

    Which makes me wonder: where is that line? How patient do you expect your employers/hiring managers to be? How many times can an employer be expected to give chances and accept excuses before it’s too much? Because I feel like the sentiment here seems to be (again, on the whole) that employers and hiring managers generally don’t give enough opportunity, but in my opinion the expectations expressed are often unrealistic. For example, to me the 5x rescheduler person got four chances more than I would expect someone to give in a hiring process without a seriously good excuse. I’d like to hear what others think about this.

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s just that most people posting here aren’t managers, so they identify with the hopeful applicant rather than with the prospective employer.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        Yes, nearly everyone has been a candidate. That’s not at all true about hiring managers.

    2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      What fposte said, but also just to give the OP some perspective on what else could be happening.

      You say for example the re-scheduler doesn’t deserve any more chances … but what if there is a system error and the re-scheduler isn’t getting any email confirmations? A simple phone call will determine without a doubt if the re-scheduler is incompetent, rude, or just unlucky. How is calling to find out what is happening bending over backwards exactly? Do you really think that someone who is rescheduling after not receiving confirmations under the mistaken impression that they have not been “accepted” doesn’t deserve a simple phone call?

      I happen to have a lot of bad luck with stuff like this. There have been numerous times I fell through the system only to catch it when I followed-up by phone. Most notably I earned a large scholarship from NOAA, but was never notified and I called a week after the notification deadline to confirm this (i figured a weeks wait was polite). It would have been really unfortunate to have my scholarship revoked due to a system error, and I can easily see someone assuming that since I waited a week I was too disorganized to remember/notice that I didn’t receive notice of my status. Luckily I worked with someone who was accommodating and she worked with me to get me back on track and properly in the system.

      1. LiveAndLetDie*

        I’m glad you were able to get your scholarship situation sorted out! I think a human interaction (phone call, face to face) is absolutely effective for this kind of thing.

        I do think that the OP of the rescheduler letter let it go on far too long and honestly should have called before it got to five times — but the fact that the rescheduler in that letter was rescheduling things extremely last-minute (sometimes less than an hour before the scheduled interview) multiple times doesn’t really say to me that there’s a technical error happening. It seems pretty obvious that the person is not prepared and keeps moving the date without regard for the interviewer on the other end having set aside that time for the interview. I think that example in particular is a both-sides-handled-it-badly situation, though. A phone call to find out what’s going on isn’t “bending over backward” for a unique situation here and there, but no hiring manager has time to call every last interview that doesn’t return a call or show up to an interview to find out what happened.

        1. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

          True. : )

          Having been on the hiring side a few times myself, it does take a lot more work than I expected.

      2. JB (not in Houston)*

        Well, and it’s to the potential employer’s benefit as well. I wouldn’t have given that rescheduler so many chances, but I don’t want to cut my nose off to spite my face. If there’s some good explanation for what’s happening, why would I want to lose a good candidate?

    3. AnotherFed*

      I think we also try to assume or at least identify possible reasons and thought processes behind some of the bad, bizarre, and unprofessional behavior the OPs write in about. It sometimes helps figure out a way to resolve the problem or learn how to deal with it.

      Sometimes, I really don’t get it, either. Take Mike C’s defense of the note forging OP yesterday as a prime example.

      1. LiveAndLetDie*

        I guess with a commenting pool as big as the one AAM has you’re eventually going to find someone somewhere who is going to identify with every character in a story — even one as obviously in the wrong as the letter forger. I do think that sometimes it can get downright hostile toward employers who are just doing their jobs (today’s update about the poorly performing employee comes to mind).

      2. Tara*

        Although Mike C. did turn out to be right that the OP had mentioned the prior verbal aproval, in his defense. (I totally understood where he was coming from.)

    4. Graciosa*

      I think there are a few commenters who are clearly on the side of the employee to the point that they don’t make allowances for some reasonable (for me, at least) requirements from the company or manager, but I suspect there are people who believe things go too far in the other direction (It’s not illegal, if you don’t like it, you can leave. etc.).

      Once in a while, I notice and think about this, but I find the overwhelming majority of the “commentariat” is pretty balanced, and the advice can help people in either an employee or management position.

      For example, telling people to communicate clearly helps in either direction. Managers need to be very clear about employee performance (which sounds harsh until you think about how much this benefits the employee who will not be blindsided). Employees need to communicate clearly about boundaries, requests for help with workload or priorities, etc., (but hearing this directly can be a great benefit to the manager who needs to understand what’s going on in the department).

      To get to your question about how patient I expect people to be, I think about that requirement for clear communication a lot. Do you fire someone the fifth time they are late? Well, did you, as a manager, tell them clearly that being late was an issue and their job was at risk? If so, yes. If not, have the conversation before you fire them.

      1. LiveAndLetDie*

        Absolutely, I agree that the overwhelming majority of the commentariat here is balanced and the discussion adds to the posts rather than subtracts. But I do think that on occasion it gets a little out of hand. I think there have been enough exceedingly weird letters this week that perhaps it’s standing out.

        I think the clear communication requirement is absolutely a good way to think about it. Improved communication in general would solve so many of the problems we hear about from day to day here.

    5. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Yeah, the majority of commenters don’t have management experience so they don’t have the background to see the management perspective. Some people can still put themselves in management shoes but some can’t.

      I didn’t comment on that post but if I had, it probably would have been in the direction of the process. I think a process that allows that kind of faceless rescheduling is sub-optimal and bound to bite the hiring manager. So – I didn’t have much to say. No, I wouldn’t have interviewed the 5 time rescheduler but I also wouldn’t have used that process.

      1. LiveAndLetDie*

        Yeah, as someone who is part of the hiring process I much prefer a system where I make calls to schedule interviews and keep an internal calendar. The idea of giving the candidates freedom to schedule and reschedule themselves is unappealing to me.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Interesting! (And I love this kind of meta discussion about the site, so yay for that.)

      I might be wrong about this, but my impression was that most of the commenters on the calendaring software post yesterday were actually not in favor of bending over backwards to accommodate the candidate. There were a few, but I think they weren’t the majority. (I could totally be off on that though.) And sometimes, one or two people take that stance but post a lot of comments about it so it can end up feeling like more people if you’re not tracking the commenter names.

      (But certainly what you’re describing does happen sometimes.)

      1. LiveAndLetDie*

        It may be that I was seeing a lot of the same people being pretty vocal! I’d have to go back and look. I’m glad you enjoy meta discussion. I’d be curious to find out how many of the regular commenters are in management/hiring compared to everything else. I know I come here from a supervisorial perspective, so that might be part of why I noticed at all.

        1. silence covered the sky*

          > I’d be curious to find out how many of the regular commenters
          > are in management/hiring compared to everything else.

          Yes, I’d love to know that, too. If there is a weakness to AAM[1], it’s that pretty much anyone can come in and express their opinion on something – and I’m not at all convinced that most people stop to wonder just how qualified a person is to make a given statement. Even regular commentators: there are number of them that I haven’t the faintest idea if they have any real background in whatever it is they might be commenting upon.

          (for the record, I’m a manager, I hire people, and I have many years of experience in the computer biz).

          [1] to be fair, this is true of the Internet at large. I’ve been in MMO environments where some ‘leading authority’ is, in fact, a high-school dropout who works 3rd shift as a stocker at CostCo.

        2. AnotherFed*

          My general impression is that there are a fair number of people (or at least a fair number of Friday questioners and normal letter writers) who are not traditional managers but still have some manager-like responsibilities – things like they’re expected to mentor/train new people (and judge when a hire isn’t working out so well), lead teams of people who do not actually report to them, help screen and interview candidates for entry level roles, and figure out how to deal with workload and performance issues when the managers who should be handling that aren’t. Since this is an advice site, it makes sense that the people who’d be here regularly looking for management advice are those who are new managers or got manager duties dropped on them without much helped.

      2. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

        I found your site about 2 years ago when I googled “How to handle [insert work dilema]” and a post your wrote about it came up.

        Over the years I found myself reading your site more and more as I googled those situations. I then realized you update regularly, every weekday! So I started reading regularly because I did not have enough work to do. Actually, I would say your are 70% responsible for how I communicate in the professional world and it has definitely been a huge help!

      3. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

        I actually don’t get to comment a lot anymore though. I’m off this week, so am enjoying the exchange with others, but I typically don’t get enough time in the day to comment and do it in a thoughtful way that doesn’t get misconstrued so I pretty much don’t comment anymore.

        I guess I would say that, compared to commenting here a year ago, it does feel like commentators are extrapolating more about the morality and/or motives of commentators and/or OPs which is not something I really remember from summer of last year. Then again, it does seem that a lot of the letters recently are … juicier? … not sure of the right word. But they do lend themselves more to strong emotions – such as overweight employee’s rights.

        And I could be completely wrong, but I also get the sense there is a changing moral landscape around corporate versus individual rights in the U.S. I don’t always have this view, but it’s not uncommon among people my age to have the attitude that it’s only fair to break the rules of an unjust or immoral system. Like, I normally keep my word and am honest, but it’s okay to lie to a known liar type mentality. I’ll admit I do feel this way about companies in general. I do not feel that I owe them loyalty due to the fact they have shown themselves to be unwilling to stand by their commitments.

      4. BRR*

        I also got the sense that most were not on the candidate’s side.

        As for the over readership, I think this is a site people go to to ask a manager. And while some are fellow managers, a lot are people who need a manager’s opinion.

      5. afiendishthingy*

        The comments on that post struck me as being much more divided than usual – a lot of the time it seems like the vast majority of comments are people agreeing with one another. I think commenters were pretty evenly split on the rescheduler, though.

        I do hire people, and unless most of my candidates were struggling with the calendar I wouldn’t interview the rescheduler.

    7. AnnieNonymous*

      I read this site because I find the situations interesting (I like a good puzzle), but I often find that the blood here is richer than is representative of the actual employment landscape. A lot of the more prominent commenters are in career tracks that all but guarantee great perks and the ability to negotiate salary/benefits, and I think they either forget or were never aware that it’s sooooo not common to have a job that favors the employee so heavily. I keep that in mind when reading this site – it caters to a fairly specific demographic, even if Alison didn’t intend for things to skew that way.

      As a side note, I find it somewhat interesting to see what people on other forums think about this one.

      1. LiveAndLetDie*

        I think part of it is that there are only so many types of jobs out there that allow people to spend time on the computer where they can get to AAM during the day and spend time commenting! Retail and hard labor jobs probably aren’t too well represented here for that reason.

        1. AnnieNonymous*

          That’s definitely true, though the “not everyone can have sandwiches!!1111!!” tendencies here have driven a lot of people away ;/

        2. Not So NewReader*

          From a retail perspective the types of situations here are very different and do not play out that way in the retail world. Things that some people think are basic and should be a part of any job simply do not exist in the retail environment. I keep hoping for a revolution.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I think, too, that I’m in a better position to advise people on those sorts of career tracks, so it’s a cycle that feeds off itself. (And that makes sense; I think it would be unrealistic for one person to be able to give decent advice to absolutely everyone. Barring some kind of magic, we all have limits to our knowledge.)

        I don’t know if it’s true that the “not everyone can have sandwiches!” thing has driven lots of people away, although it’s certainly done it for some (although I assume there are more that I don’t know about, of course). I’m trying to step in more aggressively on that when I see it (because it annoys the crap out of me too), but I’m also more or less comfortable with the fact that there’s no way to run a site that everyone will love. I try to run the site that I would want to read, and the people who like it will stick around; it won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, and that’s okay.

        Some people are fine dealing with a little bit of that “not everyone can have sandwiches!” thing, because they see it as only a tiny portion of the whole. Other people don’t like it at all, and they leave — and that’s okay too. People should spend their time wherever makes them happy, and not somewhere that consistently irks them. And unless we’re only going to have three readers, there’s no way to run a site that will hit the mark perfectly for everyone.

        2. AnnieNonymous*

          I agree with everything you’ve said :)

          I just think it bears stating outright that the more vocal commenters on this site can sometimes push for the enforcement of workplace “norms” that aren’t universal or even realistic.

        3. Graciosa*

          What is the “not everyone can have sandwiches” thing?

          It seems like everyone else knows, but I’m going to ask anyway and accept that I have been known to miss a few things.

          In college, I was once puzzled by a reference to someone being there for an “M-R-S” degree. After puzzling it out for a bit (because I thought our college didn’t offer graduate degrees), I finally asked someone if this referred to a Masters in Religious Studies.

          1. Shell*

            It’s the tendency of immediately judging a viable suggestion as impossible across the board, just because it doesn’t work in one particular circumstance.

            Question: what is a easy, non-offensive lunch suitable for all offices?
            Answer: Sandwiches! You can have so many variations on them, they don’t smell, and can be very dense and filling depending on what you put in them!
            Indignation: Not everyone can have sandwiches due to [gluten allergy, hates bread, don’t have a toaster, etc.]!! Be more considerate!!!!!!!

            It makes me roll my eyes a lot.

              1. Artemesia*

                I laughed at this one. I don’t like sandwiches and rarely ate them, but oddly had no trouble figuring out alternatives without drama or feeling targeted by sandwich monomaniacs.

        4. AnotherFed*

          I really like the site, and I also really like that you step in to debate back, very occasionally tell people to drop something, and rarely (if ever?) ban people or close threads. It lets discussions happen, and “not everyone can have sandwiches!” is a much nicer, (probably) well-intentioned form of the general internet jackassery that you just plain get with the internet. So, thanks for running a site that generally hits the mark with and attracts much nicer than average and more constructive than usual internet people!

      3. AnotherFed*

        What’s the general impression of this site elsewhere? The sandwiches thing again?

        I admit this made me curious enough to google it, but all I found was complaints that Alison didn’t post enough train wreck letters and some people who were upset that Steve G. didn’t like nose rings. The internet is weird!

    8. Mgmt*

      >>In my time here both as a lurker and an active commenter, I have noticed that on the whole the commentariat here tends to err on the side of the employee/candidate rather than the employer.<<

      I have noticed the same thing. Is it a generational thing? Do recent college grads of the current generation have more of a sense of entitlement than previous generations? Have they been coddled by an "everyone wins" mindset? Do applicants not know that there could be 20+ people with equal or better resumes applying for the same job? Are the current generation so hooked on their iphones & video games to have the same social savvy of older generations?

      I have read through piles of applications at bottom, middle and top job tiers. At every level there are a few who are totally clueless. You have to wonder what they are thinking when they apply for a job they are not qualified for. What a waste of time!

      Likewise, the post about worrying about getting poor performers into "trouble" by telling management about egregious violations and problems. Who is writing the paycheck? That's whose side you should be on. Sheesh!

      The rescheduling issue seemed a little odd but since the person who was annoyed hadn't communicated with the applicant, I give that particular applicant a pass. Also, there was a technological element that depersonalized it for the applicant, yet the OP took it personally. I would take it personally too, which is why I would never use an impersonal method like that.

      This blog is almost more of a job-search tips blog than a true management blog, but I do appreciate the management posts so I keep checking in. If an unemployed or entry-level person wants to know what a manager thinks of x,y,z issue, it's a great blog. Just don't whine that managers should be less managerial!

      If you need four chances to get your job done right, you can probably easily be replaced by someone who won't make the same mistake twice. If you half-ass your current job, your half-assery will probably be reflected somewhere in your work history or references and you will be weeded out. There are excellent candidates out there for every job. Be one of them! That's the secret to getting hired and staying employed.

      1. zora*

        I don’t think it’s a generational thing. I do have one thought though, the majority of all of the people (like, in the country) are employees. They might be managers themselves, but at the same time they are the employee of someone else above them. The number of people who are totally the boss of themselves is very low, just based on physics. Doesn’t that mean that almost any large random group of people will have more employees than employers? I think sometimes even when you are the manager of people, you still have a tendency to think about how you would feel if you were in the situation of the employee in the letter in question. I don’t know , just thinking out loud a bit.

        1. Mgmt*

          well, since this isn’t “Ask a self-employed person about self-management” blog, there probably wouldn’t be any self-employed people. “Manager” implies someone who supervises other people, not someone looking for their first job out of college. I didn’t expect so many posts by and about job seekers when I came to this blog. I expected more about evaluations, motivation, time management, communication, running meetings, etc. Googling that type of thing is how I found this blog in the first place.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Generally speaking and not referencing any particular post or subject, I think that advocacy comes in all kinds of costumes. Advocacy can look like this: “I agree, that sucks, but here’s how it works and here is what to do.” If a person only reads the first half of the sentence or paragraph, it might appear that the writer is favoring one side over another. Drilling down through the post and reading other comments, I think in most cases people try to help the LW find a workable solution in spite of a flawed system or imperfect humans.

        Just because people offer advice or talk about a situation does not necessarily indicate that they agree with the LW 100%. One example I can think of is the credit card guy. How many of us have stepped in crap and, either, wished we had someone to talk to about it OR found someone to help us and it meant the world? Questions will resonate for different reasons that often do not get explained but those are some of the reasons why people chime in. On the initial level it seems that people favor the employee, but there’s sometimes more to it than that.

  137. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    If you need help, ASK for help, BEFORE what you are working on goes to crap/is late/has epic fail and I have to find that out on my own.

    #brokenrecord
    #whatiswrongwithpeople
    #iamnotyourmother

    :) And how was your day?

    1. AnotherFed*

      Seriously, are you sure you aren’t a supersekrit coworker of mine? That is pretty much the story of the last month here…

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        We exist in a parallel universe, perhaps, where teapots are sold by the federal government.

        Honestly!

        I get to 4:25 on Friday and find out, on my own by checking system status, that 75 pieces of work that were supposed to move through the Handle Department today were never even pulled from the system. The part where they were a person short today doesn’t change the part where this work has to be pulled!. It’s supposed to be pulled hourly.

        Tell me (or anybody else in management) you are in the weeds and we will either send help (I had trained help I could have sent) or we will adjust the expectations and say okay, it’s okay to not pull 75 (did I mentio it was 75???) pieces of work today.

        I seriously do not know WTF. There are no surprises in the expectation to: Speak! Up! while things are still solvable.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          +Another
          This happened to me Monday. Almost exactly. I hear your frustration.

          For me, month-long project. Final deliverable due at 3:00 Monday, which meant FINISH by 1:00, no later to get things submitted properly. At beginning, I said, my department can handle the final step. It’s no problem. No, no, the other dept. has it covered. We’re operating on that premise. Executive approval meeting Thursday, things do seem fine. Friday morning, “How is “final step” looking?” Good, good, just adding a few items in. I check in during the day, and late Friday; he doesn’t need help. The final step is complex, and our schedule was compressed due to the lateness of the Thursday meeting, so I was trying to be patient and expected the guy would send something to me ~Saturday. Checked in first thing Monday. Asked WTF was going on and if he needed help. Nope, he’s almost done. Sends it to me around 10:30. There is $120 million dollars missing from the numbers finalized Thursday (never mind what this actually is, it’s a huge freaking boo boo and cannot be submitted). Then, we have Very Little Time to do anything about it. It finally got done and went in 2 minutes before due. I continually have to re-learn how much hand holding and checking people need. I wasn’t used to dealing with someone as inexperienced at this particular task, so I believed him when he said he was close. Ah well. Not totally his fault, if you consider I should have managed him more closely, but still frustrating for all involved.

          1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

            Well, that got your blood pumping!

            And here’s the thing, in longer term project like that, some people only learn to sense how much road they have left when they are let to run themselves out of road. The way you handled it was probably the right way for the employee’s long term learning and success.

            Sure I can say that now because ultimately, all was pulled out of the fire, huh?

        2. AnotherFed*

          I’m still too frustrated to sanitize it into teapots or another good metaphor, but it’s been a terrible week on top of a terrible month for things like you’ve described. Except, when me or one of my team finds the mess that someone else badly buried, it keeps becoming our problem to fix. One of the biggest reasons I stay on this team is because they’re awesome and never say ‘it’s too hard,’ or ‘that’s not my job’; they figure out a way to get the important things done, even when they are nearly impossible, way outside their swimlane, have to be done on tight timelines, and just plain have to work. The people burying steaming piles of poo for us to find keep getting the poo cleanup dumped on my team, so we’re swamped and they skip out early and do nothing useful. And the management team isn’t willing to shift important work elsewhere, because the other groups involved are doing crap jobs and hiding that they aren’t doing anything! ARGH!!!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I so understand the buried poo. I have decades of buried poo. And the first thing to do is find a way to explain that “this is poo” in terms that will help people to understand that hey, this is poo!. It’s probably going to be a few more years of explaining. I love my boss so I just keep digging. There are days, though…..

  138. AnotherAlison*

    Well, my day just got more interesting. I heard some rumors that “things are going to happen” on Monday. Also heard the rumor that I don’t need to worry, so that’s good. . .but reading between the lines, I do think the structure of my job is going to change a little (or maybe a lot). I have a few guesses as to what all this is, but I won’t know for sure until Monday. Hmm. Happy Friday.

  139. Cath in Canada*

    So last Friday, around 5pm, I was walking down the stairs from our 5th floor office when a woman from the company that has floors 2-4 came BURSTING into the stairwell yelling “IT’S FRIDAY! WE’RE FREE, WOOOOOOOOO!”. She high-fived me and took off running for the door. I used to work for that company, but don’t know this woman. I kinda want to stake out the stairwell tonight so I can meet her again, because she seems AWESOME!

  140. De Minimis*

    Still looking for work. I had an interview Monday that went okay, but it’s a government job so I could still not end up getting it.

    I think the fact that my last job was a federal job may be spooking private sector employers, even though it was in healthcare and I’m well qualified for a lot of positions in the private sector. I’m considering maybe downplaying my government experience—maybe just using the agency title [a casual observer wouldn’t necessarily think it was a governmental position] and not saying that it was a government position, at least not in the resume or cover letter.

    Considering applying for some jobs that are way outside my field, but don’t know if that’s a good move or not. And I’ve found yet another federal job that I could have a shot at, but it’s long distance. Would rather not undergo living apart from my wife again, but the possibility is still in the back of my mind. There seem to be plenty of things to apply to here, but I keep missing out. I think my interviewing improves each time, and would like a shot at a non-government interview that wasn’t so structured. I’ve applied to some healthcare orgs in the area and some have expressed preliminary interest, so we’ll see.

    1. Graciosa*

      Why do you think your last federal job is “spooking” private sector employers? I’m honestly curious, as in my industry (admittedly not health care) it’s generally considered a plus, although I could see it being perceived otherwise if the overall perception was a lack of relevant private sector experience. I wondered what made you think it might be a negative in your particular search.

      1. De Minimis*

        This is just a guess on my part, I think they see governmental and think I don’t have any experience with traditional accounting roles. I have no evidence of this, just that I’ve gotten very little interest so far from anything outside of government.

  141. Email Overload*

    I just moved from a small company to a huge one, and my inbox has quadrupled! I want to stay on top of everything, but I know things will probably get lost from time to time. I flag important items that I need to respond to and will create different folders once I’m a few more weeks into the job…but does anyone have any other advice? Or even a way that you organize email into folders that has been helpful? I probably just need to focus better because I will be typing out one response and then not finish because I’m distracted by reading the other 5 emails that came in the meantime! I’m new to Outlook so if any of you know of any tricks, please share!

    1. Graciosa*

      My first piece of advice is don’t get hung up on finding a perfect system. There isn’t one. There are systems that are better for you than others – because they suit your work style – but an elaborate system can end up sucking more time out of your day than it saves.

      Just try something – anything – simple that appeals to you and see how it works. After a decent run using it, you’ll want to tweak it a bit because it will occur to you that this would be so much more helpful if only you changed X, so do it and start the cycle again.

      If you find you’re not spending the time updating your system / notebook / spreadsheet / whatever, then it is probably the wrong system for you. Try something else.

      On the more concrete side, I use Outlook categories a fair amount as a way to classify different types of requests; email can be sorted by category and assigned due dates where appropriate. Lots of people use systems which involve working on email only during specified times on their calendar (say one morning and one afternoon slot on the schedule) and turning off all reminders that something has entered the inbox. Interruptions are a huge productivity killer.

      Finally, the great art of managing larger volumes of email – or any other demand on your time – is making deliberate choices about what *not* to do. Lately, I have stopped reading OneType of broad email communication that goes out to everyone. It isn’t that useful. I have started reading OtherType of email because 1) the content is more useful and more interesting, and 2) when I mention something I read, the reaction is very positive (meaning people find me more impressive for having that knowledge) which is not true of information gleaned from OneType of email.

      Accept that you won’t do everything perfectly, and make strategic choices about where to spend your time.

      Good luck.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        That’s good advice.

        I spend most of my day in email. I answer almost everything as it comes in. If there’s something I can’t answer immediately (usually because I have to think about a response), I throw it in a Stuff I Have to Do folder, which is set to show the number of items (opened or not) visibly. I can’t forget that there are items pending (because it is bold and the number of items is showing), and I clear that folder as soon as I can.

      2. Email Overload*

        I didn’t realize you could assign due dates – that will be so helpful! Thank you so much for taking the time to answer!

    2. zora*

      I usually organize folders by topic, so i have a few folders for the most important topics I need to stay on top of, and then I have other folders for low-importance things, like ‘To read’ or ‘Lists’ which are distribution lists I’m on that I only need to look through every few days.

      I know other people that use a time based folder system: Urgent, Today, This Week, and everything gets sorted by how quickly they need to respond to it.

      Definitely give yourself a week or two to figure out what kind of sorting is most relevant for your situation.

    3. Depends on the Job Description*

      Pull the ones from your immediate supervisor FIRST.
      These will need the most attention from you personally.

      A lot of these e-mails are just informational. Many don’t need a response. Some are companywide. Some just stay filed for later reference.
      Some are: “There are cookies in the breakroom” “My dog had puppies, Anybody want one?”

      Until you know who’s who, it will be impossible to tell who spends their workday sending out useless, irrelevant e-mails. It will become apparent very soon.

      “Thanks for the information.” Should cover most.
      Glean which e-mails do NOT require any action on your part.

      Also seems to be a clue that this is the preferred method of communication.

      If any e-mails seem particularly nasty or petty, resist the urge to respond.
      Just ignore it. Send no response.
      An e-mail is forever.

      E-mail is heavily monitored. Use your personal phone for personal e-mails. Use discretion in general.

      There are ways to sort the e-mails by date or by sender or by keywords. I wouldn’t worry.
      Hope this helps.

  142. Sunflower*

    Idk if anyone is still on here but I GOT A JOB OFFER TODAY. I am so excited I am happy with the salary and benefits and commute.

    The only thing I’m nervous about is whether to try to negotiate for more. Gonna spend the weekend doing some more research to make sure the number is what I think it should be. I think it is and I’m happy with it so Idk if I should just let it be and accept. I’m just so excited!!! And my birthday is next week which makes it even better!

  143. Raia*

    I work at a non-profit, where the board hires the top manager, and that manager hires everyone else. I was offered a job there after my internship, but the pay was on par with McDonalds assistant managers, no benefits, and rampant issues in the org and staff. I said no, but “my official statement” to the board is that I need to move back home, which is a different location.

    Board members have been asking me if there is anything that can be done for me to stay in the org. I have been sticking to my official statement, but it doesn’t sit well with me! They should know how much I was offered to be paid, bc they would be shocked enough to hopefully uncover the other problems.

    I’ve read on AAM before about non-profits, boards, and hiring decision/CEO problems, that basically just don’t contact them. What about in this situation?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s super weird that board members would be involved in trying to recruit anyone but senior level staff — if you’re an intern, it’s very strange and signals to me that it might be a very small organization with a board that doesn’t stick to established board roles?

      1. Raia*

        Yes, the org is very small, 4 people, 2 full time. Right now I am the interim of a full time position, but I was an intern for a year. I would have stayed permanently if I was getting something fair… 20,000 is not fair. Shouldn’t the board know or have access to who is getting what portions of the payroll budget? If they knew I was offered that, they wouldn’t be questioning why I was walking away, instead they’d be asking the manager why I wasn’t offered a bigger slice of the pie. Or that’s what I would hope.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          If the board is operating with this level of involvement, the normal rules about interacting with the board don’t apply. If they’re asking if anything can be done to keep you, there’s no reason not to tell them.

          1. Artemesia*

            It would not in this situation occur to me NOT to say ‘I am interested in the work we do here, but I am not in a position to take a full time position without benefits for 20K a year.’ Why wouldn’t you say that to the people who offered you the job?

            It is frankly rather insulting to make such an offer to someone who has already put in low or unpaid internship work and is good enough that they want to keep.

            1. Raia*

              I did say that the pay was unacceptable and unliveable to the manager. But, to pay my lease before I moved back home and job-hunt while still being employed, I didn’t know what to do besides stay, and be the interim…

    2. BRR*

      I might try to bring it up but only if you aren’t going to stay. Because there is no guarantee things will change. And if you aren’t staying you don’t have anything to lose for the board to try and fix it.

  144. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

    So who here has been in a job that you either didn’t like and/or weren’t well suited to, but that you still managed to be good at?

    That’s pretty much my situation. I’ve been a temp for a while. The majority of the jobs I get are reception. There were a few others, but it’s basically just admin/clerical work. I keep hoping they’ll give me something different and then I just keep getting more reception jobs.

    I don’t exactly like doing reception. It’s a terrible personality fit for me. I’m a very introverted kind of person. I’ve never liked talking on the phone. Or just talking much in general. I’m quiet and kinda socially awkward. I’m also a math major. I have an analytical sort of mind. This kind of work just doesn’t keep me interested.

    But somehow I’ve been good at it. It’s not easy getting a crash course in the front desk and switchboard in a few minutes and then acting like you know what you’re doing. I’ve done quite a few day jobs like that. I just dive in and have to learn quick. I’ve pulled it off so far. I’ve had employers request to have me back.

    I’m currently in a job where the receptionist quit so I’m taking over in the meantime while they’re hiring. This place is nuts. It gets crazy busy. And some of the clients are not nice to deal with. It’s a government social services office (welfare, disability services, etc.) so they’re pretty much all there because they have issues. Some can be very demanding and irritable. Sucks when you’re not a people person. It can be exhausting for me. I’ve managed to impress everyone though. I caught on quick and settled in. I’ve been told I present well and I seem confident and that people are saying I’m awesome. I don’t get it. I really shouldn’t be good at this.

    I guess it’s good to know I’m capable of doing things that are outside of my comfort zone. Problem is, I worry I may be getting pigeonholed into doing the same kinds of jobs because I’ve been good at it. Just because I’m good at something doesn’t mean I like doing it. I don’t know though. It may just be that this is what’s been available. My agency does recruiting for all sorts of temp and permanent jobs. It’s not just boring admin jobs. But maybe there are other temps that are better qualified for a lot of those other jobs. I just hope I’m not being overlooked for jobs I’d find more interesting (or even boring jobs that don’t involve dealing with people) simply because I’ve been good at reception. I don’t know. I don’t exactly want to bring it up though. I can’t really say I don’t want to do this cause that’s not true. I’ll do the temp jobs; I just don’t want to do this stuff long term. I’d rather take jobs I’m lukewarm about than end up not working much. But I’ve talked to them about the sort of jobs I’d be more interested in long term. It would just be nice to do some other stuff in the meantime that’s more likely to help me get there.

    So, thoughts? Anyone been in similar situations?

    1. Jennifer*

      Admin jobs or super high level jobs or fast food are all I see ads for these days, so it probably isn’t “pigeonholed” so much as that’s what your qualifications are, and that’s all anyone wants. Especially as a temp. “First point of contact” jobs are super hard and super in demand/can’t be outsourced to India. If you’ve already talked to them about it and this is what you’re getting still, they may just not have anything better to offer you.

      You have my sympathies, but at least they consider you to be good at the job. I can tell you from experience that if they hate how you do it, you’re doomed.

      1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        Admin jobs or super high level jobs or fast food are all I see ads for these days, so it probably isn’t “pigeonholed” so much as that’s what your qualifications are, and that’s all anyone wants.

        It’s just hard to know which it is and it could even be a combination of the two. I’m getting general office experience out of it, which is fine. I have the education for the sort of jobs that would interest me; it’s the getting relevant experience that’s tough. Like, I’d be happy just playing around with spreadsheets all day, but as a receptionist about all I ever do with Excel is data entry.

    2. Graciosa*

      I have absolutely been there, and you’re dead right that the ability to do something well does not mean you want to do it at all.

      Do not stay silent about this. Your employer makes money by placing people in jobs where the customer will be happy to pay the temp firm’s bill for those services. The firm now knows that placing you in receptionist roles will produce happy clients. They have no reason to do anything else unless you speak up.

      There’s nothing wrong with asking about other opportunities. You should think of your track record of success as demonstrating that you can acquire valuable skills – not as a limiter that prevents you from ever doing anything else. You could also position this as a desire to grow in your career, experience new challenges, etc.

      It will be in your employer’s best interest to look for future placements where you and the client will both be happy. If you leave to find other work, they won’t make any more money off you.

      So have the conversation (professionally) about what you want – you might not get it if you do, but you certainly won’t if you stay silent.

      Good luck.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        I agree. I’ve been in that position. Some of my coworkers couldn’t believe (and I mean they really couldn’t wrap their minds around it) that I didn’t like because I was good at it and I was always friendly and non-grouchy at work. But I haaaaaaaated it. You should definitely speak up and see if it’s possible to get a different kind of job–even an admin type job, so long as there is no receptionist component to it.

        1. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

          If you’re not happy in your job you can make it known and be grouchy or you can just do your job and be professional about it. I’m not a naturally friendly person but I can act like it on the phone. It’s draining though. I can be pretty bitchy when I’m not at work. It takes a lot of energy to go out of my way to be pleasant.

      2. UncoolCat (formerly Manda)*

        Your employer makes money by placing people in jobs where the customer will be happy to pay the temp firm’s bill for those services. The firm now knows that placing you in receptionist roles will produce happy clients. They have no reason to do anything else unless you speak up.

        This is what I mean about getting pigeonholed. They know I’m capable so they’re gonna keep asking me.

        There’s nothing wrong with asking about other opportunities. You should think of your track record of success as demonstrating that you can acquire valuable skills – not as a limiter that prevents you from ever doing anything else. You could also position this as a desire to grow in your career, experience new challenges, etc.

        I’m gaining skills like having to learn quick and I sure learned to multitask in my current job. I’m hoping the fact I’ve been able to pick up whatever gets thrown at me is proof that I’m probably capable of taking on other challenges.

        So have the conversation (professionally) about what you want – you might not get it if you do, but you certainly won’t if you stay silent.

        One of the recruiters wanted to consider me for a temp-to-hire reception job. I reluctantly went to the interview but when I talked to the recruiter after I basically said I’m willing to be flexible with temp jobs but I wouldn’t be happy in that kind of job permanently. I explained what I’d be more interested in doing. I just have to be careful how I say this. I don’t want it to sound like I really hate it and I don’t want to sound like I’m just complainy, cause then I might just get less work.

  145. T.*

    In June, my director resigned which was a huge blow to our department but I still felt hopeful for things to turn around because our relatively new VP is great. Today, VP announced her resignation. Very concerned for what is going on in this company, we’ve lost a lot of good people in the past few months. The only thing keeping me around right now is that I’m planning to take a few months off to travel in the new year. Originally I was going to ask for a leave of absence, but now I’m not sure I would want to return. Would it burn a bridge if I took a leave of absence and then didn’t come back because I found another job? Should I tough it out here or if another opportunity presents itself now could I jump ship and take it, knowing I intend to take a few months off at some point next year? My work life has been stressful for the past year, I’m not sure I can endure it for another 6+ months!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      The conservative answer would be to assume that you have burned a bridge by taking a leave and not coming back. This answer protects your interests in future employment.

      My one thought, probably not helpful, is how important is the traveling? It might be better to plan to stay put and get the job situation squared away.

  146. Mae North*

    Long time reader, infrequent poster, very much hoping that someone’s still reading.

    My husband got informed this week that he’s “under investigation” at work because a customer complained about a call disconnecting, and apparently he has a higher disconnect ratio than others in the call centre. So they’ve decided that he’s hanging up on clients, because they determined that it’s happening on their end and not on the clients’ end, but there’s a lot of possibilities they don’t seem to be exploring, such as the fact that the things they’re looking at can’t tell the difference between a hang-up, a system glitch, or a problem with his phone unit.

    He used to do second-tier support of phone systems at a previous job (as did I, it’s where we originally met) and is aware of these possibilities, but he’s worried that anything he says about these will look like he’s making excuses. Plus, even if it is the system or the phone, there’s no way to definitively prove that without management and tech spending the time to audit everyone and see if it’s something that’s happening to others but is only noticed when a client complains.

    Of course the problem with the situation is that literally anything he says or does will look like lies – if switching the phone fixes the issue, someone who’s convinced it’s deliberate will think he just stopped. He plans to try it anyway, of course.

    What’s the best way to deal with something you didn’t do but can’t prove? If you were his boss, what would you want to see or hear?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I would probably want to hear something like this: “I’m mortified that you have to worry about this. I would never hang up on a customer. I feel strongly about treating customers well, even when it’s a difficult call. I want to get to the bottom of this just as much as you do — can you tell me what I can do on my end to help us figure this out?”

      1. Mae North*

        Thanks for the suggested wording, Senior Blogger Green! He plans to give this a try, along with suggesting the initial steps he would like to take (taking phone numbers earlier even though it’s deviating from the script, and swapping out his phone and phone line in case either or both of those is the issue).

    2. silence covered the sky*

      I don’t know how the system hardware works, but – what if he asked to swap desks with someone (with a different phone unit etc) and see if his ratio is affected? I’m assuming this ratio value is automagically calculated for everyone on a regular basis?

      (you’d want management to acknowledge that the person who is swapping with your husband might suffer a higher ratio after the swap, if it’s a system issue).

      1. Mae North*

        You actually helped us figure out that the disconnects in question have all happened after he moved to his current workstation (lots of construction going on, so he’s been at six different desks in the last 18 months), so it’s looking hopeful that it is an issue with the phone or wiring that will be fixed with an equipment swap.

        I’m pretty sure this ratio is calculated with voodoo and arithmancy as they apparently don’t keep any company-wide stats on dropped calls or really use the monitoring software designed to help ID systemic issues. I suggested that he trade phones with his manager and then we’ll see if she starts “hanging up” on people, but he’s far too nice to actually suggest that they deliberately inflict a potential problem on someone else.

    3. Colette*

      Alison’s wording is great.

      I doubt it’s a system glitch- I would expect those to affect everyone equally. The phone/headset could be the problem, so that’s something to consider. It might even be worth recording when he gets disconnects to see if there’s a pattern.

      1. Colette*

        I will note as well that they are likely pulling the recordings of the disconnected calls to look for patterns there (I.e. is the customer irate before the disconnect? Is the disconnect during a hold?)

      2. Not So NewReader*

        How old is the phone he has? Is it due for replacement? Stupid question- I hope he has checked his phone and any wiring for problems. My home phone had a problem because my house has a dampness problem and the wires corroded. It took me a while to find that tiny bit of corrosion. The way I caught it was because the wire was clear-coated, I could see the green stuff on the copper wire. I have also had problems with headphone jacks quitting.

        Where I work, I lose a LOT of calls because the person is calling from their cell.

        1. Mae North*

          He’s only been sitting at his current workstation for a few months, which is where all the issues have happened, so he’s not sure how old the phone is. They buy cheap phones and headsets (even Comcast had better from the sounds of it) and use them until they die, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it were old, or just a piece of junk. This was sprung on him at the end of the day before some scheduled vacation so he didn’t have time to check last week, but he’ll be asking for a different phone and new cabling for it on Monday.

      3. Mae North*

        There are a few kinds of issues that could affect just one phone, or a group of phones on the same gateway – the only reason this was flagged for him was because one client whose call was dropped complained, so it could be happening to others as well and just have gone unnoticed so far. The disconnects where he wasn’t able to call back were during the opening spiel/give me your info so I can pull up your account stages, so no irates involved. He used to work for Comcast, even the most irate of the clients he deals with now are nothing at all compared to that.

        We are *hoping* that their IT department is actually looking into this further, but management is not at all tech-savvy (they think turning up the handset volume on the phone will record voices louder for clients to hear better…) and from what they told him they seem to be interpreting the CDR saying the call ended on their side = the phone was hung up on their side. Which is not what it necessarily means at all, it’s not nearly that cut and dried, it just means that the call ended in their system – because of a hang-up, or a phone malfunction, too many lost data packets, a gateway issue…

        He does plan to ask for a different phone and new wiring for it, and will also check the jack when he gets into work on Monday. Hopefully the problem is with the wiring or the physical phone unit, as they buy cheap phones and use them as long as possible.

  147. Sif*

    So a couple days ago there was a question here about whether temporarily having two salaried jobs might cause background check problems and whether it was ethical to have two salaried jobs, since each job is paying to have the employee available. It got me wondering: if you have a salaried job, does that mean you are expected to not commit to a second job, in case the salaried one needs you to work late or on weekends if necessary? Say the salaried one is typically Mon-Fri 8-5 and you want a part-time hourly job on the weekends to make some extra cash, or you want to freelance, and your clients are strict on deadlines. Would either of those cases typically be a problem? I’ve only ever had hourly jobs, so I’m really not sure how this might go.

    1. Graciosa*

      It depends on the role and the employer. Many full time, salaried positions come with an expectation that you will be devoting your time and energy only to that employer. Sometimes this is formalized in a policy or in the hiring documentation (more likely at larger companies).

      None of my professional jobs would have wanted me working somewhere else on the weekends, and all of them would have required permission for me to take on additional work for a third party. However, I do have a professional role, and most of my professional career has been at Fortune 100 companies. This wasn’t the case with the hourly, non-exempt jobs I held earlier.

      I think if I wanted to take on another job in my current position, there would be serious concerns (not just on my employer’s side) about whether I could really devote the time and energy to a second role without damaging my ability to work effectively in my current job. This is really more an issue of stamina than of availability.

      If I were taking on another very minor job – say 2 hours every Sunday at a local church – this could be workable (no competitive conflict and a very minor commitment). If I suggested I wanted to pick up another twenty hours doing anything over the weekend, everyone who heard it would think I was out of my mind.

      It’s not that I’m expecting to be called into my current job at a moment’s notice, but simply that I need the weekend to recover from the week. My performance would absolutely deteriorate without that recovery period (I notice this even when I’m just personally busy once in a while).

      I am paid for my judgment more than my labor, and I have to protect it from anything that could impair it (including things as minor as lack of sleep). Yes, things happen, but I compensate for them and make adjustments that I just wouldn’t be able to make with a second job.

      In fairness, I do make enough money that I am not looking for extra cash over the weekend. My focus is on finding ways to preserve my time rather than cash (what can I personally outsource to avoid having to spend time on it?). I have felt differently at other points in my life when I needed money more than time, so I do sympathize with the desire to explore how to maximize your income.

      A smaller company employer might view this differently, or be more willing to accommodate an employee in a different role. I can’t imagine it in mine.

    2. AnotherFed*

      I think it depends a lot on both the nature of the salaried job and on the second job’s level of work. If the salaried job is pretty reliable about not needing too much extra time, or where very predictable times of the year are busy and you’re expected to work extra then but not the rest of the year, it seems like a low risk but is still a risk. The second job might be a problem anyway if it could cause a possible conflict of interest with the first job (like potentially competing for clients) or the appearance of using one job to get favors from another (like using a supervisory position or position of public authority to pressure people to contribute to or patronize the other job/business).

      In short, if you’ve got a 9-5 office job and work at Taco Bell on the weekends to pick up some extra cash, it’s probably no big deal.

    3. Lore*

      Almost my entire department does freelance editing or proofreading or writing work on the side, and many of our freelancers are colleagues at other companies. We have very project-based work, and while nothing is 100 percent predictable, it’s generally pretty easy to look a week or three into the future and say, “Oh, I’ve got eight huge deadlines that week, I should turn down any freelance work” or “All my big projects will be in proofreading for the next two weeks so I should be working pretty regular hours.” I’ve only had a few periods where the workload was so unpredictably overwhelming for an extended period of time that I’d have had to blow a freelance deadline. (But also, the majority of the freelance assignments I either give out or take will average maybe 10-15 hours of work per week, so could be done on the weekends, or in a concerted push over one week.)

  148. Chorizo*

    My manager transferred to a different department last month and I wanted to apply for the job, but I haven’t been at my current employer long enough. I’ve got mixed feelings about it: one the one hand, I’m getting awesome feedback about my performance in my current position; on the other hand, it would be a new challenge that I’d look forward to.

    Guess I’ll keep doing what I’ve been doing. Hopefully in the not-so-distant future, the stars will align and I will get that shot at a promotion.

  149. zora*

    Oh, I actually have an important question: Does anyone here know about California unemployment stuff?

    I was laid off in April 2014 and exhausted my unemployment in 2014. I started temping in December 2014 through now. Can I apply for unemployment again now, since my assignment is ending next week? And is there a point applying, or because of the many months I spent on unemployment last year, does it mean my total unemployment weekly amount will be really low? I’m not sure if I should even bother trying. Thanks!!

    1. De Minimis*

      I know a little just because I’ve collected unemployment in California before.

      It would probably be worth trying, the tricky part would be determining how much you earned in eligible wages and how to calculate your base period. I know with the standard method of calculating it things would be hard because they wouldn’t count anything you earned in April-August. But I checked their website and it looks like they have something called an “alternate” base period they can use if the applicant doesn’t qualify when using the standard calculation. For that one, they would go up to June. It all depends on how much you earned, though.

      From the info you give, it looks like you’d be a candidate for the alternate base period, which would allow more of your earnings from your last job to be taken into consideration.

      The bad thing is, it looks like even if you use the alternate base period, they would still only consider what you earned up to June. If you wanted all of it to be considered, you’d have to wait till October to file, and it’s usually tough for people to wait. But I know sometimes people are advised to wait because they can be eligible for a larger amount.

      I don’t think your previous claim would be an issue depending on when you initially filed.

    2. Take Care of You*

      Just apply.
      California is one of the most employee-friendly states.

      Look Online.
      Ask around to other unemployed people, maybe at a coffee shop somewhere. Go somewhere other than your regular coffee place, McDonald’s even, then you don’t have to feel like a dork if the people are unfriendly.

      There tends to be unemployed people at coffee shops during the workday, for some reason.
      You may even meet new people/learn something new/get out of your rut/ network!

      You may have to call or e-mail that last temp agency that you worked for…once a week.
      Generally, if you are very slow to return their calls…that awful, low-paying, half-of-one-day temp job with ridiculous boss will thankfully be “filled.”

      List 5 employers on a work record.

      CA may be different. Look online. Just Apply. It is steady income. It may pay as much as some of the lower-paying jobs.

      Trying to *time* the best time to apply? Right away.
      Do it ASAP. It is not retroactive.
      That’s my two cents.

      On unemployment, I paid rent, helped pay my BF’s car off and cleaned up his credit. His credit was better than mine. We use his credit to rent and he has two cars that are now paid off in full.

      His insurance costs just went way up. I did not realize that his coverage doesn’t include what it used to…the premium cost remained the same. So now he has to pick up Part B Medicare, with a permanent late penalty. He hates talking about it. So I am pulling teeth. Got a huge shock with the sloppiness of the billing (For an ER visit …three years ago)
      Grr. The insurance company BSBS paid the bill in full, then took about 80% of the money back.

      So I am going to suck it up, and find something that pays enough to cover our bills and clean up MY credit. Methinks that I will be traveling elsewhere. The jobs here pay awful. He loves the FL weather. I have had enough.
      This part belongs in the other thread !!

  150. TheLazyB (UK)*

    Probably far too late, but just in case there are any excel fans still reading!

    Our team generates a spreadsheet every month. Just over 1000 rows split over 5 tabs (roughly 500, 300 100 and a couple 1 to catch the duplicates. (I feel like i skipped a step there, sorry!!) is this the best way? Is there another way??

    Sorry if i am not describing this well it’s 1am and ive had stupid busy few days.

    My training plan is intermediate and advanced excel on the IT skills pathway (for uk peeps i think it replaced ECDL?) then make sure any gaps plugged on Gfllearnforfree and the ‘coolest excel trick’ post/comments on here from a couple of years back. Ill be an expert in no time ;)

    1. TheLazyB (UK)*

      Ah crap crapcrap! I had a greater than and a lesser than and the text in between them has been eaten. Darned html.
      Abridged version, am too tired to think

      We have roughly 1000 rows in a monthly spreadshhet, the rows are split over 5tabs

      Spreadsheet has roughly 500 300 150 15 35 ish over 5tabs

      Need to check last 2 mo to ensure no duplicates

      Mycolleague has been copying unique id from current mo and previous two mo and using pivot table filtered to grrater than 1 to find duplicstes.

      Is there a better way?

      Thanks in advance!

      1. Colette*

        Could do a Vlookup. You’d need to set a range on the previous month (I.e. LastMonth) and the month before (2Month). To set a range, highlight the cells in the table so that the leftmost column is the unique identifier, then click on the cell between the column header and the row number and type in the name.

        Now that you’ve got your range named, go to the current month tab and add a column. You’re formula will look something like =vlookup(A7, LastMonth, 1, FALSE), where A7 is the column in the current table that contains your unique identifier. Copy the column to all rows.

        Now add a second column for the previous month and modify the formula accordingly.

        Once you do this, any rows with a duplicate entry will contain the unique ID in one of your new columns. The others will contain undefined.

        Pivot tables are probably easier, unless you need to know which specific lines are duplicated – this way will let you filter the duplicate rows easily.

        1. TheLazyB (UK)*

          THANK YOU SO MUCH. :) I’ll work through this when I’m back in work. It’s really helpful to know which row it is as we have to remove duplicates.

      2. Some*

        You can paste the old info and the new info in one tab, go to conditional formatting and you can highlight duplicates. That way you can see right away which are duplicates. If your sheet is really 1000 rows, this works well for small data sets. Also you can sort it by the color of the cells.

        You can also develop a template (if the files are the same name and in the same folder each time, of course you can copy them there), where you actually can link to those outside files and either use pivot tables as you do it right now and just refresh it, or the conditional formatting thing. The idea is, that it will be somewhat automatic you just need to copy the files in the folder and rename them.

        1. TheLazyB (UK)*

          Oooooooh really? Actually can’t wait to get back into the office and have a play around with this :)

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Excel is an awesome program, but it honestly sounds as if you need a real database and not a spreadsheet, especially if you’re worried about duplicates.

      1. TheLazyB (UK)*

        You may be right. But I’m still pretty new in post and I don’t understand all the nuances of why we do what we do yet. My sister had also suggested this though, so I’ll definitely keep it in mind.

  151. Tired long time lurker*

    I have been in my job for 15 months and I love it most of the time. The people I work with are great, the work is rewarding and I got glowing reviews last year. About 8 months ago my boss was promoted and my workload increased significantly as I am now doing most of the things he used to do as well as the work I have always been doing. I thought that the increase in my workload would be temporary as another other guy Tom was hired in the same role as me when my boss was promoted but Tom did not have the same technical skills as I do so he has had quite a steep learning curve. I am now starting to feel like I am doing way too much worked for my pay grade and but I don’t know what to do. Should I ask for pay rise? Ask for a promotion? Am I being ridiculous for even thinking that I could be promoted after only 15 months in the same role? What is the norm? I tried talking to my boss about Tom sharing some of the work but I only get vague promises and I don’t think my boss understands how tired I am (he also works very hard so I know that he can’t pick up any of my tasks). I don’t want to leave this job but I am finding the whole situation really frustrating. I have considered talking to one of the other managers that I trust to ask for her opinion but I kind of feel like that would be going behind my boss’ back. Any advice?

    1. MsM*

      What would a best-case outcome look like for you? Would a raise and/or a promotion make your current workload more tolerable, or do you really just need it taken off your plate? Whatever the answer is, that’s what you need to talk to your manager about. Walk him through all the stuff you’ve taken on since you started – and, if your goal is to get it redistributed, what you could be accomplishing instead if you could get the more time-consuming tasks or the ones that aren’t a great fit with everything else out of your portfolio. Acknowledge that you know everyone is busy and that Tom is still working on getting up to speed, but the fact remains that you are essentially doing two jobs at the moment, and something needs to be done about that. Then see what he has to say.

    2. Product person*

      The first thing to do is to figure out what outcome you want.
      Is it to increase your salary?
      Get a promotion in title + more pay?
      Get your workload reduced to a more manageable level?

      After you decide what would make you happy, ask for some time to speak to your boss face-to-face. You said, “I don’t think my boss understands how tired I am”. Explain that in detail! Make it clear that it’s been overwhelming, and you need help figuring out how to remove somethings off your plate so you can feel less tired. If what you want is workload reduction and a promotion, ask for both, but be very clear about how much more work you are having to deal with now. Then stop and listen.

      You may not like what you hear — your boss may not offer any solutions, in which case your best strategy is to continue to do your best but also start to aggressively look for another job. From what you describe, you are frustrated, and leaving things be for longer will only start to hurt your reputation if it means that frustration starts to show in your interactions with colleagues (or the excessive workload means you start to drop some balls and make it harder to get stellar references from this job). But hopefully your boss will understand and come up with a plan to get things back on track for you.

      Good luck!

      1. Product person*

        Huh! MsM, your reply only showed to me after I posted. I see we said basically the same thing to Tired long time lurker :-).

        1. Tired long time lurker*

          Thank you so much MsM and Product Person for your replies. I think that you are both right when saying that I need to figure out what I want to get out of my conversation with my boss. I did tell him that I worry about making mistakes because I am asked to do some many different thing and that I am getting grumpy because of the stress. I guess I will have to do some thinking and then talk to my boss again. We do have a good relationship so hopefully he will understand.

  152. Sparkly Librarian*

    I survived (and kind of rocked) hosting my first staff meeting, which rotates locations monthly. I am a new employee and most of the other staff on this team has worked together closely for a while; I am just not clicking with their clique. Plus I only see them about once a month. So I was nervous! Had some bad dreams before having to wake up way too early. I had to sort out, for example, providing coffee service for 8-10 when a) I don’t even drink coffee b) the break room at my office doesn’t have anything more than a one-person French press c) there is no Starbucks or Peets or Noah’s anywhere nearby. Nothing makes the grumpy people grumpier than not having caffeine in the morning. (They were still pretty grumpy.) I ended up brewing the coffee at home and bringing it in vacuum pots, along with an electric kettle for those who preferred tea.

    1. Nanc*

      Congratulations! You went above and beyond to make caffeine happen–something we slow-starter in the morning folks appreciate. Since this is a regular, rotating location staff meeting, maybe you could budget for some coffee pots, electric kettle etc. or some vacuum pots so you’re not doing so much with your own stuff. You could also try the Starbucks instant Via, mocha and latte packets–I can vouch for the Mocha ones being good with an extra splash of milk or cream. We buy them as our “emergency backup office coffee” for those days we have super-early phone calls so we can avoid the coffee stand line. Or maybe you could ask the most approachable member of the clique for other suggestions/feedback. If everyone is doing this as you are, maybe as a group you can make it happen in a better way.

      You got through it once, it will be so much easier going forward!

  153. Polka Dot Bird*

    I could really use some career advice.

    I’ve been working as a technical specialist for four years, and would like to move up a level to a technical specialist/management role. I have done some management in the past year, with one staff member under me.

    Two months ago, I moved to a new department. I applied for a job at a current level (which I got) and a promotion, which I didn’t get.

    My boss told me that he didn’t want to give me the promotion because the work would be “too intense and stressful”. However, I suspect there was also this idea that there would be a heap of brilliant candidates out there waiting to apply and they could chose a really high performer for the role. Now they have gone to market and instead of the literally hundreds of applications they expected, they’ve got… four.

    Pros of applying:
    – Career progression: a chance to grow and develop, and get paid more.
    – More interesting work: I am actually pretty bored in my current role, which doesn’t challenge me at all. (And being bored at work is making me a bit depressed, so I’d love to get more happening – at the moment I’m developing my own my work and asking for more to do but I’d have more authority to do that at a higher level.)
    – I’m tired of working under supervisors who don’t know what they’re doing and make poor decisions on what course of action to take.
    – Experience has shown me in this org that no-one will mentor you up – you have to fight for it.
    – With the state of the economy, opportunities for promotions (or new jobs at all) in my field are hard to come by.

    Cons of applying:
    – I would probably need some more support than an a more experienced manager, and my boss is a new manager who is probably counting on getting a lot of support from that position.
    – Growing and developing takes energy, and I have some personal goals which I wouldn’t be able to focus on as much.
    – My boss (and my team) has this dynamic where you get asked for your opinion but if people don’t agree you get this whole treatise on why you’re wrong. It’s exhausting, because we have lengthy meetings which don’t necessarily progress anything, and I’d be able to opt out of it a lot more at my current level. (Although I like being able to contribute my ideas and expertise.)
    – The position is supposed to take advice from someone new and eager to prove herself – and this person is hyper competitive as a result. She has already told me that I “scare her” after I asked her to give me back a resource after she was done using it. Okaaaay. I do not have any desire to get involved in that swirl of drama.
    – Because I’m so bored at the moment, I’m not that engaged with work and find it hard to be motivated to go the extra yard.
    – I worked with my boss a year ago and he doesn’t see the growth I’ve done since – and even at the time, he didn’t entirely pay attention to my skills. It’s hard to break out of the box he’s put me in.
    – My area has a culture of hiring from outside, not developing from within.
    – I got rejected two months ago and don’t know if applying again would be well received. (Is this an issue or not?)

    Ugh. I can’t see the woods for the trees and would love to hear your opinions.

    1. Colette*

      I think you have two issues:
      1) you aren’t sure you want the job and all it entails
      2) you’re not sure you’d get it if you applied

      The first step is to figure out if you want the job as it is, working with the people you’d work with.

      If you do, you might want your next step to be selling yourself to your manager (I.e. Briefly explaining why you think you’d be good) and asking for advice on applying.

  154. University Teapot Specialist*

    I started reading here about a month or so ago, and this is my first time commenting. It’s very likely that my response will get lost in the shuffle, but I’m going to try anyhow!

    I work at a large public University and my specialty is making white chocolate teapots. I also make chocolate teapots, but all of my experience, background, enthusiasm is for the white chocolate variety. I am very good at my job and am the only white chocolate specialist at the entire University. Recently, I have been thinking about branching out, and after much research here, have applied for a few jobs and have gotten interviews to both jobs that I have applied to (it helps that my white chocolate expertise is valued elsewhere, so that is working in my favor).

    I have an in-person interview next Thursday at a large private employer where the job is for chocolate/vanilla teapots. Now, I know chocolate and am good enough at what I do that I can figure out vanilla, but it is probably not where my passion lies. I just found that the same employer is also hiring for a white chocolate/chocolate teapot maker! The job was just posted yesterday. I have been told that my interview will be for one of two jobs by both the Recruiter and the Hiring Manager. Should I assume that they have seen my background and know that I am way more cut out for the new opening, or do I need to bring it up in my interview (or before?) and say, “hey, I saw that you also had this opening and I want you to know that I am also very interested in that”?

    I have only ever worked at this University (for many years, but it is my only employer), so I’m not really sure how to frame this with a large private employer. Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. fposte*

      First off, apply for the other job, too. Then I would bring it up in the interview as well: “I also saw the more recent opening for white chocolate teapots, and as you may have noticed I have a strong background in that and submitted an application there too. I was genuinely interested your chocolate/vanilla opening so I don’t want to close down that discussion either, but I did want to make sure you knew that I was applying for the white chocolate position as well.”

      1. University Teapot Specialist*

        This is very good advice. Thank you. I am going to do pretty much exactly this! My interview will be pretty abundantly clear, anyhow, that my specialty is white chocolate (after all, it was clear in my phone interview and is very clear on my resume), so I cannot imagine that it would be a surprise that I apply to that vacancy, as well. It’s all within one department, though the teams are structured based on type of teapot. Both the hiring manager and her manager will be at the interview, which is why I suspect they may already be thinking of this other opening for me. But, may as well put it out in the open!

    2. fposte*

      P.S. And do not assume they will know this without your telling them. They might, but you really don’t want to count on that, and it won’t hurt to bring it up either way.

  155. squiddishly*

    Occasional commenter; frequent lurker; using a different pseud from usual Just In Case. I could use some advice:

    I work as a secretary in an extremely small, EXTREMELY dysfunctional law firm in Australia. How dysfunctional? In the year since I started working here, I’ve seen four solicitors quit, including one who had been there for five months and left in tears.

    Early this week, I was warned by a fellow secretary that the boss’s new PA has been badmouthing me to the boss, saying I don’t know how to do my job. My colleague found out because our boss gossiped to her about the PA gossiping. Luckily, the boss doesn’t believe her PA — I don’t plan to stick around for long, but I plan to quit before I can be fired for spurious reasons! And the rest of the staff have reassured me that I’m perfectly good at my job, and the PA is out of line.

    Anyway, since then, I’ve been extra-conscientious about my job, and also communicated more of what I’m doing to the PA, who seems to have the instincts of a micromanager. Does anyone have any more advice? I’ve never experienced this sort of behaviour in the workplace before, and it’s not doing much for my professional self-esteem while I job-hunt.

    1. fposte*

      Your boss doesn’t believe her and you’re already job-hunting. Engage less and not more; in fact, if that colleague (who’s also a gossip here) comes to you with more “information,” I’d nicely say you’re happier not hearing this stuff.

  156. schnapps*

    Are you me? :) I work in the public sector, have only ever worked for one employer and most of my demonstrable skills for the field I’m currently in slot me into a white chocolate teapot category, but am generally good with chocolate teapots in general.

    Nothing to really say, but good luck! I look forward to seeing how it turns out.

    1. schnapps*

      So this was supposed to be a response to University Teapot Specialist. I have no idea what happened.

      (It cannot be the way better than a glass or two of wine to my left. Not at all)

  157. AnonAnon*

    After being fired from a previous job in a toxic environment I keep thinking every reprimand or mistake pointed out at my new job is another tick mark on my performance which will lead to my inevitable firing. Most recently I was supposed to send our webmaster/graphic designer/my supervisor’s boss an update to a document she had to fix ‘asap’. I immediately emailed her and asked her to get it done ‘asap’ (there was no idea as to when ‘asap’ meant). Friday we had a short day which was an ‘all staff learning event’ (we took classes on conflict management, computer tech issues, etc.) and no one was working on their ‘real’ work as the classes were mandatory. Work ended at 2. I helped clean up after the event and left since that’s what most people were doing. Some people went back to their offices to do work until 2. Checking on the whether the document was finished slipped my mind.

    Fastforward to a little after 2 and I get a message from my supervisor asking about why I didn’t send the pdf of the document to the person that needed it. I said that the graphic designer hadn’t gotten back to me. She said that I should have taken initiative and gotten the pdf done as the person that needed it is only going to be in town on Monday (this pdf is really a small thing that we are working on for a board member. We are essentially appeasing her and trying to make her happyish as we work on a pet project for her). I immediately contacted the graphic designer by phone and she said that she wouldn’t have been able to work on it anyway on Thursday as she was swamped with meetings and a very financially important project. SShe said the job can be finished very early and quickly on Monday. She’s a lot calmer than my supervisor so its a bit easier to talk to her and she reassured me that it’s okay and we will get it done. Now I am feeling anxious that this is a black mark on my performance that will lead to my inevitable firing if I make anymore mistakes or fail to take initiative on something.

    1. fposte*

      I can’t tell you what this would mean in your particular job, but this doesn’t seem like a big deal. I also think your manager could have been clearer on the actual deadline, but you can’t fix her, so let’s talk about what you *can* do.

      It’s true sometimes stuff just gets dropped, but I see two process weaknesses here that led to the problem and that you could strengthen. You could check back with the designer and your boss to pin the deadline down when you get the initial request (“Lucretia says that she should have this ready by Monday morning–will that do?”), and you can have a system to give you a followup reminder, whether it be putting a followup notation in your calendar or handling your email in a way that would have alerted you that this wasn’t done. (I also wouldn’t have factored in your own view of the importance of the project–that’s higher-level politics that’s not part of your decision.) If your boss does want to talk to you about this, identifying weaknesses like this and having a plan to mitigate them in the future is the kind of thing she’s likely going to want to hear, and it’s going to make you feel less like a passive object and more like somebody who can figure out ways to minimize problems.

      What I love in good staff is knowing you can say “Handle this” and it comes out handled at the other end. You’re not just passing on info from your boss–it’s your baby now, and you’re going to want to set up ways to make sure the baby gets home safe.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The stinkin’ thinkin’ is not going to help you here. I hope you are working on talking nicely to yourself and not allowing yourself to dwell on the old toxic job, too much.

      The next step is to think in terms of parallel situations. Decide that you are going to be that employee that does not have to be told twice, because you are on top of it. So what’s in today’s lessons? (This is the way I have spoken to myself. I try to find at least one lesson a day.) Lesson one: Don’t abbrev. ;) Wait until you know people a bit better then you can get fancy with the abbreviations.
      Lesson number two is follow up. Even if your follow up is to just say to the boss, “Did you want me to keep following that?”

      Right now, probably the only person giving you black marks is you. And from sitting here, I think you could show yourself a little more mercy.

      It seems unrelated, but please consider getting some extra rest. You need coping tools to heal, reknit after your last experience. This is all very taxing on your mind and body. Get some extra sleep or decide not to take on any big projects at home for a short bit. Look for ways to give yourself breaks and recharge.

  158. Frustrated*

    I have a coworker who gossips about everyone, to the point that if she’s not already the center of attention she will insert herself into virtually any in-office situation and make herself the center by creating gossip (about a new coworker, about literally anything). And she often uses it as a tool to alienate or attempt to discredit coworkers. She’s 50 years old and behaves this way, and I don’t know what I’m asking exactly but she’s creating a toxic work environment.

    1. fposte*

      Earbuds and something else to do. If a gossip falls in the forest and you’re not there to hear it, does it make a noise :-)?

      1. Colette*

        And if she inserts herself into a conversation you’re having, either remember you need to be somewhere else or redirect it back to the previous topic.

        Basically, you want to make interrupting you regardless, so the less attention you give her, the better.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You may get to the point where you feel free to say one of these things:

      “That is personal and not ours to discuss.”

      “Sorry, am not really interested in gossiping about others.”

      “I am here to work, not catch up on the soaps.”

      Keep in mind that some people derive energy from gossip. It energizes them and helps them through their day. If they did not gossip they probably would have a rough time getting through the day. I am not saying this is right- but pointing out this could be their perspective.
      Knowing this might be helpful at some point.

  159. Thinking About Work @ Home*

    I had recently gotten a new job that is more busy, with project after project after project.

    I felt like I need to take time at home to think about how to prepare for another workday ahead. For example, I felt that I need to do prep at home on how to send an email to a colleague or write a memo because during my job I might not have time to prepare because I have to get so much projects done.

    I am non-exempt, and I am wondering if other non-exempt workers have to do something similar because there is just so much projects to do at work.

    This is my first time working in a busy deadline-driven work environment.

    1. fposte*

      I’m assuming that the problem isn’t really that you just have too much to do to complete within your allotted hours–that it is just about struggling to change gears during a busy day. I sympathize–I’m exempt, and there are kinds of work I am very glad I can do at home in quieter times. But I would strongly advise you against doing off-hours unpaid work, both because it’s illegal and also because it’s unfair to you; it’s okay if you’re thinking about how to phrase something while you’re in the shower, but sitting down and actually writing drafts isn’t good.

      What I would recommend trying is scheduling time in your workday to compose. If you need time to think about writing emails and memos, put that time into your schedule. It’s part of your work and you should be paid for it. If you have a lot of the same kinds of communications, consider making some templates or guidelines for yourself to shorten the drafting process. If that doesn’t seem to help or proves impossible for another reason, consider talking to your manager to see if she has suggestions that could help you without your working illegally off the clock.

      1. Thinking About Work @ Home*

        Thank you for your input.

        I didn’t think that writing drafts at home is considered “doing work at home.”

        I like the templates idea.

        But I still need to find ways to better allocate my time. Sometimes it could take me quite a while to draft letter templates and memos.

        1. fposte*

          And that “quite a while” might be an indication that you’re overthinking it, or that you could use some guidance in that area. Do you feel like you need more time on these than your colleagues? Is it possible that your first draft would be good enough to send, or is it possible that this is a writer’s block/focus issue that might be helped by breaking the communication down into paragraphs or even sentences?

          Just some thoughts.

          1. Thinking About Work @ Home*

            I wanted to make sure that I got my long emails correctly written so that I do not have to do follow-ups to explain errors and misunderstandings.

            Sometimes I need to have comprehensive emails in order to explain things that might be hard to explain by phone.

            There are some emails that I won’t know how to respond to and I might need more time to process my thoughts on how to respond to the sender.

  160. Joe*

    Myy wife is undergoing treatment for cancer and she requires full time care. I might be out of the working world for a good while because of this. At minimum a year. She is 29 years old with a very rare and aggressive lung cancer and it has spread all over. She’s also an immigrant to the US so she can’t function here by herself. It’s fortunate that we have some savings and insurance from the Marketplace so we will be able to sustain for awhile. But considering her prognosis not being good I will want to spend every waking moment with her. How could I explain my work gap to future employers and would this hurt my chances for employment?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m so sorry you and your wife are facing this. It is very understandable to take time out of the workforce when something like this happens. In the future, you can explain it to prospective employers by being pretty straightforward about it: “I was dealing with a family health crisis.” People will understand.

    2. fposte*

      First, I’m sorry for your wife’s illness, and my best wishes for her recovery and future good health.

      I think most employers will understand a work gap that involved caring for a very ill spouse. They’ll likely hear it more often from workers older than you, but we all know that these things can strike anyone. The one issue that might be raised is whether your skills and knowledge are up to date, especially if you’re in a field that thrives on currency. If that’s the situation, anything you can do to demonstrate you kept your hand in–the occasional freelance job, for instance, or any volunteering you could do at your computer at home–could help, but it’s up to you whether it’s worth it or not, and it’s not likely to make you unemployable if you don’t; you just might have widen your search and expectations a little.

      Again, my best wishes to you and your family during a tough time.

      1. Joe*

        Thanks very much for your reply. I actually work in international Human Resources and our plan was for me to return overseas after taking a hiatus and spending lots of time with my wife (we were in a LDR before). However, this really awful thing just happens to come a month after we come to the US. In any case, she will be rescanned after her 3rd chemo treatment and I’ll have a general idea where this thing is headed and how to respond.

  161. CayceP*

    I know it’s way late to be posting on here, but here goes.

    I took a new position at my organization and am way over my head. It was a lateral move, but there is no training program and my trainer is leaving as she took a promotion. So now I”m expected to train HER replacement. We have so much turnover that there are postings for approx. 20 percent of our positions right now. Best part? I’m six months pregnant and will be going on leave in less than three months.

    I’ve asked for more training and have been told that it doesn’t exist, that I just need to figure it out. We work in a highly regulated industry with pretty crappy consequences if things go wrong, and I literally have chunks of my job that I have no idea how to complete and nobody to ask. Everyone is at wits’ end, hell, somebody posted a super helpful ‘tips for surviving a panic attack’ in our break room, and not as a joke.

    Other than LEAVE, does anyone have tips for getting through 90 days of this without breaking?

    1. Observer*

      If you are heavily regulated, there is a good chance that the regulating body, or an industry body has some useful materials available. That could be a decent starting point.

    2. Take a Deep Breath*

      Sign up for an industry training class. Schedule the “untrained trainer” and another person or TWO as back-ups. Make it mandatory. Get the boss who is over the trainer to support this, AHEAD of your announcement.
      Fill out an accounts payable voucher for the costs. Submit the expense forms after the fact.
      [Revise the fine points to suit your establishment.]

      Hire some temps and/or get some work-study students to do simple, supervised tasks. Give them a little respect.
      Delegate who will do your work while you are out on maternity leave. Train them ahead of time.
      Get a large old-school calendar. Post it on the wall. Set weekly deadlines. Refer to it often.

      Worst case scenario:
      Get on Google. Look up the regulations. Give the classes yourself. More liability that way.

      Take your breaks. Make your appointments. Schedule small treats. Eat Well. Rest. The usual “extreme self-care” stuff. See the Cheryl Richardson books.

      Decide in your mind that “This is going to work.”

      Document your accomplishments, add to your resume. Pull this information out when you want to ask for a raise or promotion in the years ahead, long after management has forgotten that you “put out this fire”

    1. CayceP*

      No, but someone else might. I would end up fired immediately if someone went to jail in error.

  163. Juniel*

    This is very late, but forever ago I posted about my little sister absolutely striking out trying to get interviews. She finally got a couple and is in the final round for a position on Monday! They initially told her she’d hear back 7-10 days after she took a skills test, but they called her four hours after she left for a final one-on-one interview, which I think is probably a good thing. It’s not in her degree field, but it’s a position where she can use some of the skills from it on a regular basis, and she’ll make her rent + expenses with enough to ferret a little away in case of emergency. I might actually be more relieved than she is (I think she’s disappointed that it’s not a position in her degree field, but she’s not going to turn it down).

    1. BRR*

      That’s great news! If it’s her first professional job, that’s the hardest to get so I think expectations need to be measured. My husband only just got a job after looking for two years and needing to work retail and it’s not in his field (history so it’s not like that was super likely to begin with) but a decent paycheck really helped.

  164. _ism_*

    I’ve been at my job for 15 months. My boss has turned out to be a very controlling micromanager with a very different work style. Still, I get good feedback and am told I’m “indispensible.” She hired me to do the routine tasks she doesn’t have time for and to learn more about all the departments and their routines so I can stand in for her. (She manages the factory, she is the Big Boss.)

    I’ve researched and consulted about this on advice blogs and such a lot already. I learned two main things: 1) My boss might be micromanaging me because of a lack of trust. 2) My boss might be micromanaging me because she is insecure in meeting all her own goals (which include me, my work, and everyone else’s work)

    Here are just a couple of general examples of what goes on.

    She says I am not allowed to respond or take calls from the corporate office without her approval. So I ask for approval every time, which results in her coming to my desk and basically writing the email for me, grabbing the keyboard out of my hands and everything. Then, when she’s NOT available, she gets mad at me for not taking the initiative to respond to Corporate myself and causing delays.

    If I’m on the phone with a client and she happens to be in earshot, she’ll come and grab the phone out of my hand to correct what I’m saying or she’ll talk over me so I can’t hear the client at all.

    If I have any question at all, whatsoever, she insists on stopping everything she is doing to take a deep in depth look at the situation – which I am already on top of and far more informed on the details because she is days behind in her emails – and makes me come to her office, sit down, and watch while she handles it herself. We’re talking about working out on paper calculations one by one, which I already have completed in a spreadsheet that she hasn’t even seen yet. If I explain that to her, she makes fun of me for keeping spreadsheets of everything.

    IDK I’m just really frustrated. When my boss is gone for extended times, we have a meeting to cover what’s expected and what to do in case of urgent situatons. Every single time, I handled it fine, things went smoothly, and she just couldn’t resist checking her email or taking her work laptop with her on vacaction anyway, and I’ll get emails from her like “good job! glad this is taken care of.” Then when she’s back in the office she has a zillion criticisms about the way I handled it.

    It’s totally different from when she is actually here double checking my work and doing it FOR me, in front of me, when it is work I already completed twice as fast and with less human error. We spend almost 2 hours a day with her sitting me down in her office to “show me how to do something” I’ve already done and just needed her final approval on.

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