Friday open thread – September 4, 2015

by Alison Green on September 4, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,249 comments }

{ 1,249 comments… read them below }

  1. LSP*

    How do you guys run/exercise at work in a big city (LA, NY, etc.)?

    I have very specific goals I need to meet (2 mile run under 16 minutes) but I’m having a hard time imagining myself doing this at lunch especially given the city blocks/people/traffic. Right now the sun sets late enough that I run after work, but come November with the time change I know I’ll need to change my routine.

    Thanks AAMers!

    1. Swarley*

      Oooh yeah, I definitely wouldn’t rely on running through crowded city streets and sidewalks if you have a target pace you need to maintain.

      Is there a gym within walking/biking distance from your work?
      Is it possible to run before work?

      Worst case scenario: Is there a relatively quiet stretch of path (100 meters at least) where you could run back and forth? Not ideal, but probably more consistent than dodging pedestrians and crosswalks.

    2. RunnerGirl*

      Can you run in the mornings? I get my runs in before work (and before my kids wake up)- it really is the only way I can do it with a full-time job and family obligations. But I curse every morning when the alarm goes off!

    3. JM*

      We are lucky to have a small workout room for employees with a couple of treadmills, bikes and weight stuff. I use the treadmill a often as possible during lunch (I usually take a late lunch, around 3). Could you use you lunch break to run in the neighborhood around your office?

      1. JuniorMinion*

        How close are you to the west side highway esplanade / FDR drive path / Central Park? That’s where I did my outdoor speed work when training for half marathons in New York City. I also went in the mornings before work.

    4. MegEB*

      I live in Boston and I typically run/exercise before work. I really hated it at first, since I’ve never been much of a morning person, but I like it now! I feel refreshed and energized for the rest of the day.

      1. the gold digger*

        I loved exercising before work (I used to attend a 5:30 a.m. boot camp class run by a former Marine DI) not because I love to exercise (I don’t – I hate it, but I love to eat) but because I got it over with before I could really think about it and dread it and because I got to feel so smug the rest of the day, looking at everyone who had not and would not exercise. (I know being smug is not an attractive quality – I did keep it to myself. I think.)

        2. Kyrielle*

          …I really don’t like exercising in the morning and have trouble getting going, but giving myself permission to be silently smug actually might do it. Thank you!

          1. Recent Grad*

            I’m a runner, and usually before-work runs are a last resort. I love evening runs in the dark though. (side note: I live in a smallish, relatively safe city. The only real safety concern is cars, and if I throw on a reflective vest, wear a headlamp, and assume people aren’t paying attention, that’s fine. Not sure I’d advise it in a big city.) Good luck!

      2. anonanonanon*

        Agreed. I tend to run along the Esplanade in the mornings and I’ve found it’s a nice way to start my day. I’m lucky enough to have a gym about five minutes from work that I can visit if I don’t make my morning run, but I like getting exercising out of the way in the morning so I don’t have to worry about it for the rest of the day.

    5. LSP*

      Great suggestions! I think I might have to go the treadmill route since there is a 24 Fitness near by. I know some of you runners out there will feel me, but treadmill running is just not the same. You gotta do what you gotta do sometimes.
      Unfortunately I take the 5:30 am train to work, but I’d love to workout in the morning. I live in a pretty safe area, but if I can get my spouse to run with me at 4 am that just might work too :)
      Anyone do insanely early workouts?

      1. Swarley*

        Yes. Treadmill = The Devil

        Just be sure to adjust the incline so your not running on a completely flat surface. I’ll occasionally get up at 4:00am to squeeze in a run, but it has to be a relatively short run. I will echo what others have said up-thread about how great you feel for the rest of the day following a morning run.

      2. Snargulfuss*

        I’ve been running before work and I love it, but the days are getting shorter and my runs are now almost entirely in the dark. I hate, hate, hate the thought of going back to the indoor track, but I don’t feel safe running alone in the dark, so I’m going to have to bite the bullet and go back inside soon.

      3. Ditto*

        Oh man this is my dilemma too! Trying to train for the Chicago Marathon but leave for work before 6. While I live in an ok neighborhood, I’m not about to risk running in the dark as a single female. Can’t do it at work because the last shuttle to my train leaves around 6pm. Dreadmill it is, I suppose! I have found the P90x dvds really helpful for the days you can’t get out but still need a bit of a workout. :)

        1. Ditto*

          Wanted to add that maybe you can check out if there are any running groups by you that train in groups in the evenings. I know Fleet Feet and the Nike running store near me do – even in the dark, winter months. Even if they aren’t doing exactly the plan you need, you’re still keeping your base and could maximize your speed training in the daylight hours you have on the weekends.

          1. Rebecca*

            I agree, definitely look for a group! There is safety in numbers, plus they usually already have some routes mapped out for you.

          2. I'll think of something later*

            Seconding running groups! There you can find people to run with all year/weather/lighting, all paces, and people who will talk to you about running without saying, gross, I hate running. You’ll probably also find that it’s easier to run faster/farther when you have people to run with and maybe find people with similar goals as you.

      4. RunnerGirl*

        Once or twice a week, I get up at 4 or 4:30am for speed workouts. It requires me to be super organized (getting clothes, food, etc. ready the night before) which does not come to me naturally! When the weather is bad, I’ll do a high-intensity circuit training in my living with lots of jumps squats (which I love and hate simultaneously). Once a week I go into work later (and finish later) so I can get a mid-distance run in before work. (Long runs on weekends.) I avoid the treadmill at all costs, but like you said, sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do!

      5. nep*

        Indeed treadmill running hugely different from outdoors. (Wouldn’t say it’s ‘the devil’, however — I don’t feel *that* strongly about it.) You could see whether any nearby gyms have the Trueform Runner. I’ve not used one but apparently the action more closely simulates road or trail running.
        Anyone here have experience w the Trueform?

    6. Today's anon*

      I usually run in he morning but if I can’t, I will run to one of the sides by the river and then do my main run there. It acts as a warm up of sorts.

    8. CheeryO*

      At the risk of getting way off topic, it’s actually best if you do most of your runs at an easy pace and save the speed workouts for once or twice per week, max. That way you can recover fully between hard workouts. (Most people do their fast running too slow because they also do their slow running too fast.) So what I would do is do an easy run at lunch 2-3 times per week and save the speedwork for the weekend or the dreadmill. Maybe stick to main arterials so you don’t get caught at every light. (I live in a small city, so I don’t know if running at lunch is truly feasible for you or not, but I think it’s worth a try.)

    10. Anon369*

      If you have strip malls, you might be able to run laps there in the evening. Parking lots are always lit. Common sense caveats apply.

    11. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t run; I walk. Usually outside in my neighborhood after work, but I’m lucky that we have a parks and recreation gym right next door to my office. So in the winter, when it’s dark and cold out after work, I pop over there and do my walk before I go home. Plus I climb stairs in the building twice a day–three floors, six times.

    12. Honeybee*

      When I lived in New York and it got dark early, I ran in the mornings right as the sun was rising. Easier to run in the parks.

      Is your job nearby a park, maybe?

  2. JP*

    My husband is on his way to job offers with two companies (one has specifically said, “HR is currently working on putting together an offer”), and he’s thrilled. I, on the other hand, have “you don’t have an offer until you have an offer” drilled into my head thanks to AAM. He’s mad at me because I’m “being negative”. I don’t know how else to tamp his hopes without coming across as a jerk.

    1. The IT Manager*

      I think he can be excited. “you don’t have an offer until you have an offer” is more about not burning bridges – quitting, cancelling other interviews, and stopping the job hunt – before he has that offer in hand. You can both be thrilled and excited about what’s coming.

      2. BRR*

        Exactly. It’s keep hunting, don’t quit, don’t cancel interviews, don’t’ slash your boss’ tires. You can be excited about “HR is currently working on putting together an offer,” although I’d still be a Debbie downer that it might not be a good offer (I’d probably not tell him that though).

      3. Lucy*

        Totally agree! I would try to do something fun over the weekend (brunch, a hike, whatever) to get him out of his head a little bit!

    2. Lizzie's Patronus*

      Good luck to him. I’m the job seeker here and my husband tries to be super positive… It can be a little too much for me at times. When I try to just be realistic he also feels I’m being negative. Not sure how to address that. We’ve talked about it. I notice my husband just leaves me be now. He gets I don’t want to get my hopes up and be disappointed. He always wishes me luck of course but he’s toned it down. Maybe you can explain that’s where you are coming from, just not wanting to see him set himself up for a (possible) disappointment later? If not maybe just let him be, maybe he needs to get all excited and that’s just what works for him.

    3. asteramella*

      Jerk is in the eye of the beholder. I don’t it’s too negative to say “If this job offer comes through with X, Y, and Z conditions you’re looking for, what would be super exciting!” But coming off the high of a good interview experience, he might experience that as an unpleasant bump back to earth.

    5. fposte*

      Why do you have to tamp his hopes? It’s pretty likely he’ll get an offer, and if he doesn’t, he’ll be disappointed but will get over it.

      I mean, I get the logic of your approach, but it seems to me that you’re doing the thing of disappointing a loved one for fear of a loved one being disappointed. Unless he’s making financial or life commitments in anticipation of this, I’d say let it go.

    6. WLE*

      The job hunt can be really stressful and frustrating. For most, there’s a lot of rejection. It sounds like he got a bit of good news and was just wanting a moment to celebrate, even if it wasn’t the actual offer yet. I would be happy for him. This sounds promising.

    7. AnonAcademic*

      I am in the same situation! My husband just had two very good interviews and keeps talking like the offers are inevitable. I keep telling him, “yes wouldn’t that be a great best case scenario if they both come through! Have you thought about if only one comes through?” I don’t have the heart to remind him that NEITHER place might offer, that seems too Negative Nancy. But I do worry how crushed he’ll be if that happens.

    8. Lady Bug*

      I’m the opposite with my spouse. I’m all how could they not love you, you’re amazing, they are jerks if they pass you up, I’d have made an offer on the spot. I mean its your spouse, you are supposed to be unrealistically supportive of each other. The rest of the world is there to bring you down, bring each other up.

      1. JP*

        I’m not telling him he’s a horrible person, I have just read too many stories of the CEO’s son’s cousin needing a job and a sure thing suddenly disappears. I’m being cautiously optimistic.

        1. Lady Bug*

          I didn’t mean to imply you were being horrible! My husband always refers to himself as my cheerleader. We all need one of those, no caution.

          Congrats on getting the offer letter!

    9. Observer*

      Why do you need to tamp down in his hopes? As long as he’s not doing anything stupid or major based on an offer that has not come through, let him hope.

    10. JP*

      Apparently all he needed was for me to post this because company #1 just sent him his offer letter. Relief!!

    11. Artemesia*

      My husband was given an oral offer that was then not completed because of one member of the firm who disagreed and hadn’t been consulted. We found this out when we arrived at a party given for the firm to which we had been invited and people didn’t meet our gaze. I immediately knew what had happened, but he didn’t realize it was over until the partner who had made the offer took him aside. Most horrible social experience every.

      Stuff happens. But no point tamping his hopes; the most I would do is encourage him to wait and see what the other offer looks like when it comes through/if it comes through. He will learn this ugly lesson without his wife dashing his hopes. And maybe he will have two fat offers.

  3. Jenn Po*

    Calling engineers! I’m an editor at an engineering education magazine. I’m working on an article about engineering women (especially in academia, but not necessarily limited to that field) who have been interested in entrepreneurship, but haven’t entered it for whatever reason.

    My article is inspired by this quote from an Ohio State study called Academic Women: Overlooked Entrepreneurs: “Faculty, particularly those in the basic sciences, have chosen academia over other career paths (especially industry). A strong prejudice against business thinking prevails, which produces a parallel distaste for commercialization—the ‘ick’ factor. One faculty member even described venture capital funding as ‘dirty money.’” They used a fairly small sample size and didn’t focus solely on engineers, who are more open to entrepreneurship, but still sometimes deterred.

    It does jibe with other national data I’m seeing: 95% of angel funding goes to white men, while less than 1% of funding goes to non-Asian minorities; women-owned businesses are more likely to be started with personal capital, and many of them are started with $5,000 or less (and are smaller, but more successful long-term), whereas the average start-up funding for men is $30,000. Interestingly, 41% of women-owned businesses who apply for funding get it, but they only receive 5% of the overall available funds.

    There is plenty of speculation about the traits that make for successful entrepreneurs—including the discredited “entrepreneurial gene”—but I’m wondering about this side of risk aversion that we rarely hear about: that there might be a built-in moral imperative stopping people from getting into entrepreneurship or borrowing money.
    I’m looking for people who have any experience with this at all who might be interested in speaking with me. This has proven to be a difficult article to research because I’m trying to find stories from people who exist, but aren’t often talked about: Highly intelligent, driven people who DIDN’T accomplish something because they found the standard methods of entering the practice to be inherently objectionable. I believe that AAM readers are the most thoughtful, diverse group of people on the Internet, so I thought that some of you might have experience with this–or know people who do. Please either comment or reach out to me directly: my email is attached to my username.

    TL;DR: Journalist looking for women engineers who didn’t get into entrepreneurship because Venture Capital, Angel Investors, businesspeople are shady. Please comment or message me with your story! (Email in username)

    1. TWIG*

      I have nothing for you, unfortunately, but your topic fascinates me. I hope that you get some helpful replies.

    3. the gold digger*

      . A strong prejudice against business thinking prevails, which produces a parallel distaste for commercialization—the ‘ick’ factor.

      This is fascinating to me. What is the point of doing research that nobody will ever use? Even medical research eventually leads to someone paying for a device, a drug, or a procedure. There is a place for pure research, but even that becomes the foundation for other research that leads to commercialization, doesn’t it?

      I work in the R&D group of an engineering company and all we want to do is invent new stuff and commercialize it! Research for research’s sake generates no money and no jobs in the private sector.

      1. mull*

        “I’m working on an article about engineering women….”

        Watch Weird Science and The Bride of Frankenstein.

      2. STEM Lady*

        I’ve seen that attitude a lot! I currently work in biotech and while not an engineer specifically, do have a strong STEM background. When I left my lab to go work in business, my PI and labmates gave me lots of grief about “selling out” and becoming a “business person” (said in the most distasteful manner possible).
        Heck, even my current boss (a former academic) talks about businessmen like the word leaves a bad taste in his mouth. Sorry to break it to you, but owning a biotech business for 20 years means you’re in business!
        I think there’s a certain mindset that values discovery for the sake of learning new things, and once you attach dollar signs to that discovery it becomes distasteful to academics.
        This is a really interesting post – looking forward to seeing more comments.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          To me there’s an even bigger picture that is more disturbing. There is a general, low level (?) contempt for various professions. Lawyers, contractors, doctors, the list goes on. There are many “dirty” words out there, it just depends on who is talking. Most of it comes from stereotyping or from negative stories about a few rotten apples. I am alarmed by our (society’s) willingness to stereotype and to repeat negative stories that in effect bring down entire groups of workers.

          While I can see that academics might not always be happy with business people, I see this as part of a larger problem. I grew up on the tail end of an era where doctors, lawyers* and many others were respected and you could see the respect. I don’t see that so much any more.

          *I keep saying doctors and lawyers, because those are easy to grab examples. But I see other groups of professionals getting chopped, also.

          1. Artemesia*

            Try being a teacher. I really fear for that profession with the ugliness heaped on their heads. Most of them work long hours for modest pay and have horrifying working conditions and frustrating micromanagement.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Yep, that is another group of people who all get painted with the same brush. It’s disturbing to watch this trend.

      3. Tau*

        I have a STEM PhD and come from a STEM-academic family. The attitude described is like an old, old friend. I like to think I’ve combated my own case of it, especially since I “sold out” myself. (My mother joked that I was exploring new and uncharted territory as the first person in the family to go into industry.)

        Although… I think part of it is the worry that attaching dollar signs to learning new things for the sake of learning new things can lead to those areas of discovery that directly lead to dollar signs being prioritised and the ones which are worthwhile but not foreseeably monetisable getting short shrift. Pure research can lead to commercialisation down the line, sure, but the path from research to dollar signs can be twisty, indirect, occasionally leading to dead ends, take a long time and generally be something where it’s easy for external people to say “psht, your research is useless”. So people working in those areas can get quite defensive.

        As an example of what I’m talking about… a few years ago the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council, which is the big government funding body for research in those areas in the UK, announced that this year all of its funding for postdoc positions in maths and stats would go to the areas of statistics and applied probability, since those were the areas with direct business impact. I don’t know what came of it directly, but I remember that the uproar among mathematicians was tremendous, and it was born out of this short-sighted focus on immediate applications vs the long-term impacts of foundational research.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I am seeing a parallel dislike for long term investments when it comes to the question of investing in infrastructure. We could be talking about state or local levels. If it’s not big, obviously new and shiny, people are not interested. Our roads here are getting worse every year. I see power poles leaning at very bad angles. Then there’s water systems, sewer and storm drain systems, etc. It’s a hot mess. Ugh.
          I think it is something in the nature of human beings, we do not like things that are a long term investment or that take a long time to develop into something.

        2. Alicia*

          I have a STEM PhD and straddle the industry/academia line where I do applied research specifically for an industrial partner. I also do fundamental research. Where’s the majority of the funding opportunities in Canada of late? Applied science leading to commercialization, and industry/academic partnerships. I basically act as a consultant to companies and get to charge some extra overhead to slush my pure research account.

        3. Honeybee*

          I agree with this and I was going to say something very similar. I think a lot of academics work on important basic/theoretical research that will eventually become the foundation for applied research and research that has direct applications. After all, Isaac Newton et al. had to develop calculus before we could get statistics.

          However, I think that academics should do a better job articulating that, too. A lot of academics get offended at the very idea that their existence should be justified rather than thinking of creative ways to explain their worth and value to short-sighted administrators and investors.

    4. Weekday Warrior*

      For a no holds barred perspective from young women entrepreneurs, you might want to get in touch with Jen Dzuira of Get Bullish .

    5. AnotherFed*

      This female engineer picked federal service in part because of the service aspect. It’s not that industry or entrepreneurs are evil, bad, or morally lacking, it’s just that I wanted to do something good for the country more than I wanted to do something that might make me very rich.

    6. Kate F*

      I am an OSU 2012 industrial engineering grad with a minor in entrepreneurship and you’re right I am distinctly avoiding starting a business at least during the initial 20 years or so of my career even though it’s been a dream of mine and I would love to talk to you about why! Please feel free to contact me at admkatfish@gmail.com

    7. Not Quite an Engineer*

      I have an engineering degree, but have not worked in the field. I had thought initially to enter academia, but one year of a PhD program convinced me that I did not want to work in this insular, grant-seeking environment. I am very happy working with data, and partly went into it because of the collaborative, low-key way the field is structured, and skills reign over politics. My long term (in a decade) goal is to start my own data science consultancy, serving engineering companies. I may be outside of your target research group, but I am interested in the topic, so if I can be of help you can reach me at Natalya.Polishchuk@gmail.com.

    8. Honeybee*

      I’m not an engineer, but I do agree with the idea that there’s a strong basic prejudice against any kind of business thinking, whether that’s starting your own business as a former academic/PhD holder, or applying the principles of business and finance to academic work and career choices. A lot of academics seem simply SHOCKED, I tell you, that their applications for grant funding are weighed against financial concerns of the funding agency and that agency’s priorities and needs, and seem to be upset by the very idea that we should have to justify the research work that we do. Our brilliance should be immediately recognized and our work should be funded simply for the sake of SCIENCE!

      So I think that does play into why some scientists don’t want to pursue angel investors or venture capitalists. Many of them don’t like the idea that they have to talk about their science in terms of how it might make money.

  4. Ops Analyst*

    My office is having a bathroom cleanliness issue. Without going into too much horrifying detail I will simply say that there is a “feces situation”.

    I’m in an office park and our floor is shared by 2 other companies. One office is vacant almost constantly and the other is pretty large and takes up about 2/3 of the floor. My office is mostly men and there are only 3 women here on a regular basis and we are 99% sure it’s none of us (at least I’m 100% sure it isn’t me). So that leaves only one other company that has the problem employees. These people seem to be largely unfazed by the issue. I have literally heard one person say to another upon entering the bathroom “don’t use that stall”, followed by the other person looking in the stall and saying “oh” in the most cavalier tone ever, then moving on to a new conversation while standing in the filthy, smelly bathroom completely unbothered. What was in “that stall” is pretty much exactly what you would imagine based on the description “feces situation”. I find this nonchalant reaction just…odd. My reaction was “What the hell is wrong with people?!?!?!” followed by gagging noises and immediately talking to my coworkers about it and sending an email off to our offsite facilities guy.

    This is not the first time I’ve complained to him and this been passed on to the building manager on our behalf. No one else in the building seems to be complaining about the problem, which is also…odd. Nothing has been done beyond sending an email to the other office. I don’t think the building manager fully understood how bad it was so yesterday I sent off some photos and today signs about respecting other employees and cleaning up after yourself have been plastered all over the bathroom. (Part of me feels like these guys are going to think I’m the employee who keeps complaining, but then I think about how unacceptable this is. )

    I’m just not sure what else can be done. I’m not convinced that the issue is going to go away simply because a couple of signs have been posted. If this continues to be a problem, what can we do to get it to stop? How do we deal with the problem when it is a totally different company responsible?

    1. The IT Manager*

      I don’t want to be gross, but to be clear is this a problem that can be fixed with a flush or does there need to be extensive cleaning?

    2. UKAnon*

      Well, firstly, I sort of wish I hadn’t read that. But I really do feel your pain! When I was undergrad there was always one set of toilets that you Didn’t Go Into. Floors, walls, doors, nothing was immune. Are there any other toilets you can use? Hopefully the offender(s) will stick to one location. Otherwise, might it be worth looking into H&S laws for your area? It sounds like it might cause problems, which you could use to prod your building management into doing more. Is there also somebody at the other company you’d be comfortable asking to do a round email telling people to STOP with the disgusting please?

      1. Ops Analyst*

        I think the building manager might genuinely be as horrified as I am. I also think he has no idea what to do about it. I don’t know anyone in the other office at all.

        1. The IT Manager*

          Uggg!

          My best suggestion either you or the person in your office whose job it is it to handle the interactions with the building manager, tell him that something needs to be done to stop this. This something would be building manager talking to reps from each company who rents about the problem and their HR talking to possible offenders (women). Maybe there’s a medical condition; I hope so. Also worth looking into if someone could be sneaking in the building or onto the floor. Basically this isn’t your job to fix and it sucks that the building manager has to do this at all but it falls under his responsibility.

          1. Ops Analyst*

            I’ve done pretty much exactly that, short of suggesting HR at the other company talk to possible offenders. I also considered a medical condition. Who knows?

            I don’t think anyone is sneaking in because the building is secure. We have to use badges to enter the building and our offices.

        2. UKAnon*

          Any chance you could quietly suggest to him that he might be able to charge companies a fine for extra maintenance required? The threat of financial penalties might make someone investigate further.

          (I would also be investing in one of the many devices which seem to be available for opening doors without touching them, and have anti-bac handy, because eww)

          1. Ops Analyst*

            I have asked them to provide Clorox wipes. I’m not sure I can suggest a fine. I don’t know how they would know who is paying it.

    3. Trix*

      Not to be too detailed here but is the stall/seat/floor/wall dirted? Or does the toilet just need to be flushed?

    4. Ops Analyst*

      There was a flushing issue that started a few months ago. The auto flush stopped working and no one would manually flush for some reason. I’ve also heard that a few years ago there was a problem with the toilets backing up and flooding the floor and dripping down to the floor below us so they thought maybe people were a bit gun shy about flushing. But the bathroom wasn’t great before that. The real problems seem to have started around the same time though and it has gone downhill from there.

      1. E*

        Would this not be an OSHA or even city health ordinance violation? Ugh, that’s nasty that this would be allowed to flood the floor and drip down to the floor below.

        1. Ops Analyst*

          To be clear, I’m not sure that the incident a few years ago was mishandled. I wasn’t here. I think it may have backed up and overflowed unexpectedly and then it was cleaned up as quickly as possible.

    5. Retail Lifer*

      This won’t help you at all, but I can sympathize. We have an employees-only restroom and that toilet is, uh, less than optimal for #2. It seems to clog any time #2 happens there, and sometimes it overflows. Our maintenance guys come and plunge it, which works for a day or two, three if we’re lucky, but then the clogging and overflow happens again. Some real work neesds to be done there, but no one will pay for it, so I resorted to making a sign that said “#1 only, please. Thanks, Management.” (We have public restrooms near by so it’s not as bad as it sounds.)

      It didn’t work. It was clogged this morning.

    6. fposte*

      My impression is that when somebody’s leaving a stall in that condition, it’s a statement, so I agree that the notes aren’t likely to do anything except maybe encourage more of the behavior. (You’re saying that this has happened more than once, right?)

      I would set aside the “unfazed” thing because it wouldn’t stop any faster if that office was fazed, and I also don’t think you’ve given any logical reason for the belief that it’s not one of your office mates, so it would be a particularly bad plan to approach the other office as if it had to be one of them.

      Two things I might do to start with: explore the possibility of a lock on a bathroom door, and find a counterpart in the other office who’s willing to coordinate with you on efforts here. But this is a really tough thing to solve, and if you look through the AAM archives you’ll see other people talking about it occasionally.

      1. BRR*

        I don’t know if it’s always a statement. I’ve met people who think, “it’s not mine so I don’t care.”

        No matter the reason this has been an unsolvable problem if memory serves me right. The person needs to leave or you need to start spiking the water with Imodium.

        1. fposte*

          I think it depends on what Ops Analyst was delicately being vague about. But in general, if you’re getting stuff on the walls, you’re putting in effort, not just not caring.

          2. Merry and Bright*

            Exactly this. I’m not a doctor but I can’t imagine a physical condition that would spread The Brown Stuff around like this. I’ve seen messy and unflushed office toilets enough not to be surprised anymore, but this must be deliberate somehow.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              An intestinal virus can do this. BUT. The person would look pale and weak, perhaps even shake a little bit because of being weak. The person might appear to have suddenly lost weight.

      2. Ops Analyst*

        You’re right, it could be one of my offices mates. Though, I doubt it. I work right next to one and yesterday she hadn’t even gone to the bathroom when this happened. The other is my manager. I don’t know when she uses the bathroom but yesterday she was out of the office most of the day.

        The unfazed this was just more of me being surprised that the other office doesn’t seem to care, nor are they complaining about the problem. That doesn’t mean they know who is doing it. I just thought it strange.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If you keep a written chart documenting similar to what you have here then you might be able to logically deduce who it is. But that will take time.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I agree with fposte in regards to putting a lock on the door. I also think that broad announcements by the manager/big bosses would also help. It’s vandalizing company property so I don’t see a big problem with firing such a person. The big bosses could announce that this is unacceptable behavior and anyone with information regarding the problem should feel free to step forward. Then add, the offender will be fired.

        But-but-but. I know, there is a lot of what-if’s here and a lot of “but you can’t because ____.”
        If the managers do not drag this out into the light of day, it will never be resolved. I am in favor of confronting it head on even if it means a good bluff. The main goal is to get the behavior to stop. Putting out for open discussion, asking everyone to help figure out what is going on and letting everyone know that if caught they can expect to be fired, are the type of things to do that should change the situation.
        It’s a totally unacceptable act and I think it requires a sledge hammer type reaction, coming from TPTB. Hiding it, whispering about it, etc, is just going to allow the problem to keep happening. You, OP, may have to be that lone voice in the wilderness that says, “This is not acceptable” in order to make those changes start rolling. Just keep saying it.

        1. Ops Analyst*

          Yup. I intend to do that. I told the facilities guy in no uncertain terms that it must be resolved. Our company can’t fire anyone though unless its someone in my company and I REALLY don’t think it is. I’m not exaggerating when I say there are only 3 of us. I work closely with one coworker and I know when she goes to the bathroom, which is not often. And the other is my manager who was barely in the office yesterday. Also talking to my manager today, there has apparently been a cleanliness issue for years. My coworker and I both started 5 months ago so they can pretty much rule us out. I’m not 100% sure it’s not my manager since I don’t watch her every move but I’m close to it.

          I will keep pushing my company to handle it. We are a small satellite office but a big global company and I don’t think they will actively ignore employees working conditions. but they will have to work with the building manager to solve it. If indeed it is the other office they won’t have any say as to how they handle it.

          I suppose it would make sense for my company to make some sledgehammer remarks to our office just in case. But I don’t think it will solve the problem since I’m pretty sure it’s not us.

        2. Artemesia*

          Ridiculous as it seems, I would be instituting a key system so that someone had to sign out a key to use the restroom and the building manager could do spot checks to narrow down who had the key when the problem occurs. This is infantile, but then so is crap on the walls. If there is only one restroom obviously you can’t separate by business. It would be great if each office had an assigned restroom and keys.

    7. BRR*

      Ha maybe send a picture to the building manager.

      But really is there anything in your agreement about the state the bathrooms need to be kept in? Can you use another floor?

      1. Ops Analyst*

        There is only one other bathroom in the building I can use that is on another floor. It’s not the end of the world to have to do that, and I do. But it also eats up a lot of my time. I can’t take the stairs and we work at the back of the office. The elevator is at the front and it is slooooow. So it’s 10 minutes just to go to the bathroom every time I have to go.

    8. InterviewFreeZone*

      This happened in my old job and it went on for YEARS. We referred to it as “Code Brown”.

      I think what finally put a stop to it was all the talk. We started talking about it more openly with a larger group of people so the culprit knew that everyone was aware. For us, it was pretty crazy because we moved floors several times and it was different departments that got switched around so our list of suspects got pretty narrow as people resigned over that time period and as the people with access to each bathroom changed. After our final move, there was one incident and then it stopped completely. I think the person realized we knew her identity.

      1. Kelly L.*

        How, how, how did she manage to make that much of a mess in the stall and none on her person? I mean, I believe you, I just have no idea what contortions she’d have to do to fling poo everywhere and still come out unscathed enough that no one knew it was her.

        1. InterviewFreeZone*

          I have no idea. I always assumed that this person had a mental problem and was doing it on purpose. She ranged from the level of nasty described by the person above (wall, toilet, floor) to leave uhhh mounds in the middle of the floor and nothing else. Sometimes just on the seat. Also during this time period, she wore really unusual clothes. Like Carthart work pants in a dark color and a tshirt of the same color and boots. This was a business casual office environment. I could see how a mess of that kind could be concealed in that attire. After the code browns stopped, her wardrobe seemed to change pretty quickly.

            1. RVA Cat*

              …but, but…what about the SMELL?!?

              This reminds me of a situation with another dept. on our floor a few years ago. It never got quite “code brown” bad, but what was almost worse is that somebody had an ummm medical issue of the fishy-smelling, possible STD variety and left her nasty underwear on the floor of the stall. Many months and passive-aggressive notes later, that dept. finally moved to another floor. But the day before, somebody left a “parting gift” in the form of feces deliberately smeared on the door handles of all the stalls.

              The cleaning lady really should have gotten hazard pay….

          2. RVA Cat*

            p.s. Phrasing it really makes me wish it was Mounds, the candy bar, sort of like the Baby Ruth in Caddyshack.

          3. Not So NewReader*

            There is a diagnosis for people who do this on a regular basis. But I have forgotten what the term is.

        3. Ops Analyst*

          I have been wondering pretty much exactly this. I don’t know how this person is going back to work without it being incredibly obvious. Yesterday it was tracked around the floor. It must have been on her shoes.

    10. Rachel*

      Yuck yuck yuck!

      I’ve worked at a couple places where some people left the stalls in less than sanitary conditions – though not quite as bad as you describe! It always boggled my mind that people got to adulthood without grasping the concept of basic bathroom etiquette.

    11. Erin*

      I can’t believe you *took photos* – I suppose that alone speaks volumes.

      I agree with the commenter that this falls on the building manager. Maybe send him daily updated photos.

      I mean I hate to advise annoying and grossing someone out as a means to get something done, but my God. I think “desperate times call for desperate measures” applies here.

      1. Ops Analyst*

        LOL I actually apologized to our facilities guy because I sent pics. But I did it because I thought the building manager assumed we were complaining about toilet paper scraps and a stray pube here and there, or just some sprinkles.

    12. RoseTyler*

      So you have a…shituation? :/

      Depending on your position/leverage I would ask the building owner to put a lock on the door, and let them know that you consider ongoing unchecked problems of this nature to be a violation of your lease (which presumably includes a requirement that they maintain the bathrooms).

      I would stop with the signs though. The person/people they are directed at don’t care, aned everyone else agrees with you.

      2. Ops Analyst*

        Good point about the signs. I didn’t think of that. But I didn’t put them up, the building manager did. I have no authority to even suggest that we would terminate the lease.

      3. Effective Immediately*

        You said you have a secure building, does that include a swipe card or badge system? It would be somewhat expensive, but if you did, you could add a reader to the bathroom doors.

        I know that’s a bit Big Brother, but I am otherwise at a loss here.

    13. Ops Analyst*

      Slight update to this. Today there was more poo on the toilet despite the signs. Somehow talk of this is making its way around the office. One of the guys in my office said something about the ladies room having soiled underwear in it. That is not something I have seen, but I wonder if there actually IS someone else complaining because I did not mention it to anyone other than my manager and coworker and the guys aren’t stationed near us to hear the convo. Plus soiled underwear never came up.

      1. InterviewFreeZone*

        Oh boy. “Soiled” underwear…that’s an upgrade to this situation. Is there anyone that you know of there that is having health problems? For the longest time, our “code brown” situations just got cleaned up and people were quiet about them because we had a wonderful woman who was dealing with cancer on top of another very serious health issue and we thought it may have been her.

        2. Ops Analyst*

          Nobody in my office has a medical issue that has been discussed with me. It’s possible I suppose. I have no idea about the other office. I really know nothing about the other office at all except for their name and what a few random employees look like.

          1. Artemesia*

            But if you had a ‘medical issues’ like this wouldn’t you be hyper about cleaning up after yourself? This is not ;medical except perhaps mental health medical. This is an aggressive act and not that uncommon of one. It is being done to hurt people and or the business..

  5. Vanishing Girl*

    How much of your resume should you put on LinkedIn? I am using Alison’s tips for writing my resume and it looks so much better than before! But I am not sure how much of this new text I should use to replace my old text on LinkedIn. Should LinkedIn job descriptions be as long as those on my resume, or should they be shorter (like one sentence or bullet point)?

    1. Sascha*

      I think shorter bullet points are better for LinkedIn, but that’s just my preference. I’m more “scanny” with LinkedIn than I am with a real resume. Probably because if I’m looking at a resume, I usually receive it via a job application, and I’m more seriously considering that candidate, as opposed to browsing LinkedIn.

      1. Vanishing Girl*

        Thanks! I am thinking if someone looks up my profile after getting my resume, so shorter probably is better.

    2. Ad Astra*

      I actually have slightly more information on my LinkedIn than I do on my resume because there are no space constraints, but I still stick to bullet points and concise language. My normal resume doesn’t have room for stuff like courses and volunteer work, but I have filled those fields in on LinkedIn because many people in my line of work like to know everything about everyone.

      1. Vanishing Girl*

        Thanks! I have volunteer work and some more information about courses I took in grad school on there as well. I am definitely going to cut down my work experience blurbs.

  6. TGIF*

    So, my new hire hopefully starts on 09/21; she’s coming from another department. I was hoping for a start date of 09/14 (two weeks from date of acceptance), but the other department needs some coverage (they have two open positions). The other department manager emailed and said he wanted to keep her until 10/03 (five weeks)! I compromised and said three weeks, and that he could use her a few days a week or several hours a day until 10/03. I think that’s pretty reasonable. If she were going to another company, he’d only have her for two weeks and he’d have to deal with it. I ended the email saying to let me know what works best for him. No answer and it has been four days. Not a very long time, but I think four days is enough time to reply. I get the feeling he’s ticked that he didn’t get his way, although from what I know of him I don’t really have reason to believe he’s a petty person. Am I reading too much into this?

    1. KT*

      Internal transfers always need more time than an external hire, in my experience. Instead of just 2 weeks (which even with external hires is a bit short, as most higher level employees would want to give their employer more notice as a courtesy), the company needs business to continue on, which often means longer notice periods or half duty, where the new hire does some of each job 50% of the time.

      I wouldn’t assume he’s ticked. I’m sure he’s busy and has 1000 emails…why not follow up with another email, or better yet, walk over and have a real conversation?

    3. Sascha*

      Or he could be waiting on the input of other people? That sucks for the new hire, though. I would be really annoyed if my former manager kept pushing back my start date.

    4. WLE*

      I prefer dealing with these types of things face to face or over the phone. It’s too easy for things to be misunderstood via email. It’s very possible that he’s not ignoring you, and he just hasn’t responded because of the holiday weekend. Is it possible to have a face to face with him and discuss it? Then there will be no questions about what is going to happen and no bad blood. If he’s in the office on Tuesday, I’d just tap on his door sometime mid-afternoon and say something to the affect of “Do you have a moment to chat about transitioning X to my department? I know there was some concern about coverage. Did you have time to review the email that I sent last week?”

    5. CollegeAdmin*

      Not necessarily an answer for you, but have you talked to your new hire at all about all this? I just went through the same mess when I switched departments at my work, and quite frankly, I was left feeling like chattel. Key phrases I’m seeing here are, “he wanted to keep her,” “he could use her,” etc. that make me worry that your new hire may be feeling the same way.

      Also, if anyone had asked me, I did not want to stay in my current department one minute longer than I had to, and I resented the fact that my old and new bosses had worked out this weird timeshare arrangement. I had jumped at the new position for a reason – I wanted out of that old office.

      1. TGIF*

        I mentioned to her that her tentative start date is 09/21 and that ex-manager may need her to cover periodically for an additional two weeks, but that I’d let her know for sure. She understands that they’re shorthanded in her current department and seems OK with it.

    6. fposte*

      I would really try to resist the negative mind-reading trap here where you preemptively decide he’s angry; it doesn’t get you anything and may make you turn the situation sour yourself. I agree with WLE on the followup.

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      My advice is to stand firm on the 10/3 date. I hired a temp in another area into my group a few years ago, and told the manager that she could help out here and there when it was needed. They completely sucked up her time to the point that she was unable to focus on her new job duties. I had to lay the smackdown and tell the manager that his team needed to stop coming to her for every little thing. It was very frustrating for her, and for me.

      1. TGIF*

        I’m afraid of that, but I have the backing of my boss who will definitely put his foot down if necessary. He predicted the other manager would say he needs more time and he was right; however, I didn’t expect the manager would want FIVE weeks.

    8. Sammie*

      I was a pawn in the internal transfer game. I was doing both jobs for SIX MONTHS. The only way it stopped was that my CEO got wind of it and told old-boss that she just needed to deal.

      PS Her immediate response was bursting into tears.

      PPS I was told this by a witness (not the CEO).

  7. BRR*

    I have a couple questions this week:
    -I have an interview coming up and I was wondering if it’s appropriate to ask about budget? The role would involve some services with annual subscription fees and it is very important what the budget is as it would impact my ability to do the job.
    -So my last day is in three weeks (being fired if it matters), I work at a university and have acquired a moderate amount of swag. What is the professional approach? Take it all with? Leave some? Depends on the item? I have things ranging from a university umbrella to a stationary set and a book about the school’s history. I really don’t want to see the stuff as it doesn’t have great memories but I know it might be better to just smile and take it and throw it away at home.
    -How do you handle being fired in the middle of a hiring process? I have 3 weeks left and some interviews between now and then. It’s a possibility I’ll interview while still an employee but by the time a background check or reference check happens I will have been let go. Also, how common is it to want to speak to your current manager/employer? I’m really at a loss with this one.

    Thanks everybody!

    1. The IT Manager*

      Leave the swag you don’t want that can be used by others. Not clothing, but the other stuff. I think leaving the items you listed makes sense as new person might be able to make use of the book and stationary. And an emergency umbrella in the office isn’t a bad thing. Or maybe you can place it with office supplies or in common area for if your co-workers want / need it.

      1. BRR*

        Thanks! I don’t want to seem ungrateful but I also don’t want some of this stuff/it might be a nice welcome for my replacement.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          FWIW, I have brought home tons of stuff and just thrown it out. The one time I did not was when I knew the item was a new and coveted item. I had just received it and others would be able to use it. I placed the item, neatly, on the boss’ desk.

          Don’t beat yourself up over what to do, just do what seems to be the right thing to do and let it go. I tossed stuff because passing it out would have been a disruption.

    2. WLE*

      For your last question, I would find a reasonable sounding answer as to why you left and rehearse this several times, so you’re comfortable explaining it during an interview. I didn’t leave my last job on the best terms. Some of the reasons were complicated. However, one of the reasons was because I was working upwards of 65 hours per week, including nights, weekends, and even on my vacation. I explained that I left to pursue a position that would offer a better work/life balance. It can be tricky since you say you’ll be there for another 3 weeks. However, I don’t think you want this coming up further along in the interview process as a “surprise.”

      1. BRR*

        That’s a good point. Up until this point my answers have been as if I would be still employed indefinitely and explaining why I’m interested in the position I’m applying for. I’ve got some serious thinking to do on this one.

    3. MoinMoin*

      When I was fired I had seen it coming and had a big drawer that I’d stuck all the swag I didn’t want, so I left it. But I realized when I left that I was wearing a company hoodie. I remembered seeing a diy dog toy for dogs that like to pull the stuffing out of toys that includes an open-netting type ball that you stuff with strips of fabric, so I drove straight from former job to the pet store to pick up a ball, then went home and enjoyed cutting up the sweatshirt. I have other stuff I kept, like nice pens, but in general I just left it for whoever wanted it. Since you’re being given a few weeks of working there after knowing you’ll be fired, they obviously think your leaving will be on good terms, so whether or not that’s true you may as well keep up the illusion and leave stuff you don’t want. Unless there’s something in there you’d like to cathartically destroy. Take that.

        1. GoldfishObituary*

          Thank you! Dissecting stuffed toys is my dachshund’s favorite hobby! I’ll give this a try!

    4. PB*

      I’ve asked about budget in interviews before, for the same reason, too low of a budget can really hurt your chances of accomplishing the goals they are hoping to accomplish by hiring you. I felt the question was well received provided it was phrased under that premise. However, I didn’t get the job, but I don’t think asking was the reason.

      1. BRR*

        90 PIP and at the 60 days check in it was determined it won’t end successfully. I’m allowed to work the last 30 days.

        1. Anoning it Up*

          I’m in a less severe but similar situation (which I’m asking for advice for below!), and just can’t figure out how to work these last howevermany days. I want to keep working and getting paid, but I just don’t want to be here now that I know there’s no future. I’m sorry we’re in similar and awful boats.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I might have missed the point here about the budget, so please excuse me, if I am off-base.
      My suggestion is instead of asking about the budget why not just ask them if they have on going subscriptions to X, Y and Z?

      Worse case scenario, they don’t have them all. So then you say, “Lacking Y and Z, how do you handle Tasks A, B and C?” Then wait for the answer. Let’s say they reply, “Oh we need Y and Z???” Then you launch into your professional self by explaining to them how helpful this is (use examples) and how you have used it with success to benefit Old Job (more examples).

      1. BRR*

        This is actually what I was thinking. Do you have this and that? Then ask, what opportunities are there for other subscriptions. Basically I don’t want to be applying for a mechanic position then find out I can only buy a wrench.

        Thanks for your reply.

  8. Lizzie's Patronus*

    Ok this just happened to my yesterday. I am interviewing in Philly for an Admin Coordinator position and have over 10 years experience working as an Exec Admin in NYC. I had interviews with 5 people, one main manager, 3 direct reports and the EA to the CEO of a large non-profit.

    The main person met with me at first and then before I left for 15 minutes. Anyway, she mentioned that I was from NY quite a bit, and talked about how I can’t be harsh in this kind of environment. I explained that while I love NY, I left because I wanted a different quality of life and left the corporate world behind, while I’m grateful for the skills, etc., I’m looking for more meaningful work and have been working with and for non-profits for a few years now. Anyway, she brought it up again at the close. Saying ‘you can take the girl out of NY but you can’t take NY out of the girl’. She is from the midwest and lived in NYC herself for several years. I’m guessing she had a bad experience? I again tried to assure her that I conduct myself professionally at all times and with finesse when I need to address an issue but it was just really weird. I normally tend to downplay I’m from NY as it can cause quite a reaction from people in Philly but professionally it can be a plus. But not sure what to do about this if it comes up in the future. Being an EA in NYC, in Finance and Advertising, having worked for the CEO of a company everyone knows, I thought were all positives.

    Any suggestions on how to handle moving forward (could this even come up again???) I sent that thank you note and while I debated on whether to address it I just kept everything positive but this really threw me… Thanks.

    1. KT*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. I’m a Philly girl, and we have way more attitude/toughness in demeanor than New Yorkers, in my experience. I think this interviewer was just odd or was just trying to bond, because that’s a weird thing to say anyway

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That is… super weird. As an NYC transplant myself, I’m actually kind of baffled by what she said to you. I might get it if she had never lived in New York, but… she has, yet she thinks all NYC-ers are harsh assholes? I completely agree with you that being an EA in NYC is a huge professional plus, so I don’t get it either. For the record, I’m no shrinking violet, but I can absolutely tell you that living in NYC taught me how to be reasonable, polite and conscientious– not the opposite. New Yorkers live to get things done, but most also recognize obstacles like time, resources and subway schedules.

      It would be really easy to advise you to be all sugary sweet and agree with her, and say something like, “Oh, I know, I left NYC because of all the big bad meanies and I’m just not like that!” but that’s not only disingenuous, it plays right into her strange impression. I would continue to answer as you have been, but really think about whether you’d want to work for someone who is apparently prejudiced and unwilling to concede.

      1. Nancypie*

        So weird, especially since Philly isn’t THAT much different from NY. It’s not like you’re interviewing is some small, slow paced town.

    3. BG*

      It sounds like a weird personal hang-up due to her own experiences. Would this person be your direct manager? I wouldn’t address it in any thank yous, but if they will be your actual manager I can see it being a problem.

    4. College Career Counselor*

      I find it hard to believe that someone in Philly is bagging on a New Yorker about being “harsh.” I suspect this has more to do with the person being from the Midwest and not having had a great experience in NYC (or over-generalizing behavior) when she worked there. It’s possible that she’s reacting to others having had challenges adjusting to a nonprofit mentality from the corporate world (or maybe she had a previous admin coordinator from NYC that she didn’t mesh with). Absent any other issues that make you think this person would be hard to work with, I’d take it as her giving you the heads-up about the institutional culture. If it comes up again, maybe ask for some examples of “harsh” behavior that wouldn’t fit in.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Good idea. Go right into with her instead of trying to work past it. “You have mentioned this a couple times and I see it is a concern. I would like to help lessen your concerns, can we talk about this a little more in depth?”

        I agree with AvonLady, I think living in a big city and close quarters teaches you to be more aware of your word choices and your gestures/body language. By the simple fact you are surrounded by a wide variety of people, you also had to have a high level of awareness of cultural and social variations among people.

    5. K5280*

      There is also a saying “I’m not angry, I’m from Philly” for a reason. My uber-sterotypically Canadian in-laws live there and have relayed proof of the truth of that to me, their NYer DIL, so I’m not sure how much of a difference there is between the stereotypes of people from either city.

      If it comes up again, I would probably assure this person that your experience as an EA working with many people from places other than NY has given you the skills to conduct yourself professionally in any environment.

    6. pony tailed wonder*

      I would tell her that you are confused by all the New York comments. Ask her to explain the comments. Just say “I am baffled by all the comments you keep making about New York. Why do you keep going back to a New York stereotype?”

    7. BRR*

      Couple scenarios/possibilities:
      -She has an idea in her head about NYC and it won’t change.
      -She had a poor experience in NYC.
      -I’ve met a couple people (not all people) from Philly who seem to have an inferiority complex and automatically hate everything NYC.

      In general NYC tends to be divisive to many.

      Suggestions:
      -I think you handled it alright, although in your response you did kind of perpetuate the stereotype she has in her head and it might have been possibly better to politely dismiss it. But then you have to be concerned about being out of touch (really?!?! they don’t think NYC was harsh)
      -Are you from NYC? If not say, oh I’m from Missouri and just lived in NYC the past X years.
      – Is it possible it’s more comprehensive than just harshness? She’s worried you won’t acclimate to leaving NYC?

    8. Nonnymousie*

      I’ve been job-hunting in Philly for a little while now (originally from DC; moved here for my partner), and I’ve noticed a lot of interviewers who seem to really want you to go above and beyond to impress them if you’re not from here. What I’ve found works best is if you talk up the area and how much you’re loving [insert neighborhood or local institutions here] and looking forward to getting to know even more of the community, rather than downplaying the other city.

    9. Allison*

      What the hell? How is that an appropriate thing to say to a candidate? I can understand mentioning your own experience in NYC, but to assume that the candidate is a jerk because of where they’re from, and than say that that’ll never change is not really okay.

    10. AcidMeFlux*

      Native New Yorker here who’s been living in a major city in Europe for over 25 years. In that time I’ve gotten a fair number of weird attitude and comments like the above. I shrug them off, but I do take it as a sign that the other person has issues, and keep my guard up. But if the situation came up in the hiring process? I’d really have my danger -sensors set to high.

    11. Lisbonslady*

      Thanks everyone. It is bothering me and giving me a bad feeling about the role given she would be my primary manager. Especially given she brought it up more than once. She talked about how it’s a family culture at this non-profit, there is a no blame attitude and how everything has to be said with the lightest touch. It’s interesting because in explaining this she seemed not to fit in to the culture herself and even mentioned she reached out to me to schedule the interviews because she had no idea how long it could take HR to do it. So I actually sensed a little frustration from her and wasn’t sure what to make of it. So yes, it was a bit strange all around where all the other people I met were pleasant and professional. NY came up with no one else!

      I didn’t mean to perpetuate what she was saying but wanted to try and explain that leaving Finance and Wall Street to move to South Jersey and work in non-profit was a shift for me and in line with my values and working there. I usually feel a little explanation is needed with the career shift.

      I love the idea of talking up Philly, hadn’t thought of that. I love exploring cities and have been since I’ve been here. It felt very strange to be stereotyped in this way, nothing we discussed was about harshness or attitude so I guess she has her own ideas about that that have nothing to do with me. Last night I wondered if I might not get the job cause I’m from NY, and if so, so be it, nothing I can do about that!

      Thanks everyone, appreciate the feedback. A few close friends (yes in NY!) found this both ridiculous and hilarious as well, lol. Adventures in interviewing!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Ooohhh. She maybe one of those people who has to hire for a position for a company that she no longer believes in. With your post here, I think this is more about her ultra-sensitive company than it is about you being from NYC. Please spend some time considering the idea that she might be telling you to “RUN”.
        All too often, I know I personalize messages to be about a short-coming of mine and I lose the real message of “Hey, CYA, here!” Please consider this possibility.

      2. BRR*

        She just sounds odd. It might not be an environment you want to be in. Also a lot of NYC people have been moving to Philly (there was an article about it somewhere recently) and maybe she has some weird sort of issue with that.

      3. Effective Immediately*

        “She talked about how it’s a family culture at this non-profit, there is a no blame attitude and how everything has to be said with the lightest touch. ”

        Everything about this screams RUN, RUN FAR AWAY to me. This sounds like a culture where no one says anything even moderately direct to each other (which is a recipe for endemic passive aggression) and no one is held accountable.

        Personally, I would not last 10 minutes in a “no-blame” environment where everyone had to be coddled lest they need their smelling salts.

        I think this lady might have done you a favor.

      4. Krystal*

        It sounds like a nightmare job. I work with nonprofits sometimes in my role, and there is a weird attitude amongst a lot of Philadelphia nonprofits. You’re supposed to apologize for not being from there, especially if you’re doing direct services work. That’s mostly tongue in cheek, but yeah.

        1. Lisbonslady*

          Thanks again everyone. I hadn’t thought of that but maybe that is what she was trying to do, warn me, in her way. I tend to interview well and right from the start I felt we didn’t click and then with this insistent NY stuff, I was a little thrown and did personalize it.

          And I am a direct person, not agressive but certainly assertive so fit could be a real issue. My most recent role was in a very critical, micro managing, abusive environment so at first this kind of culture did seem appealing but if this is a place where nothing can be addressed I don’t know that I would be able to deal.

          Appreciate the feedback all around.

    12. Steve G*

      Weird comments especially from someone who had lived here. The NY stereotype she is feeding into is about 1% of the population, and is mostly rich high-power professionals living in certain areas of Manhattan, and even then, it is a stereotype.

  9. FootinMouth*

    Office politics are causing me much anxiety

    The fallout from my intense discussion with my boss continues.

    Nearly two weeks ago, my supervisor confronted me about comments that reached him about my frustrations at work. I apologized and explained that I was upset and promised to refrain from making such statements going forward. He seemed to accept my sincere apology.

    However, now I’ve learned that he plans to confront one of the people who gave me information that caused me some discomfort. He told me directly that the information is inaccurate, but there is documentation and statements from six other staff members to disprove it.

    I’m worried about what he’s going to say to this person and how it will go over. Part of me wants to warn my colleague that an unpleasant conversation with our shared supervisor is ahead, but I am only privy to the meeting info because the secretary accidentally showed me the schedule for the next two weeks.

    Is there any course of action I can take? I’ve already spoken with my boss and tried to remedy the situation, so I don’t know what else I can do.

    Please share advice, particularly on what I can do to contain my anxiety and guilt about the brewing storm.

    1. KT*

      Nooooo. Shush. You’ve already found out what happens when you talk about things you’re not supposed to. Doing anything else will just cause pain for everyone–and potentially cost you your job

    2. BG*

      I wouldn’t warn your colleague – if that gets back to your manager, I think it will end up causing more problems.

    3. NJ Anon*

      RE: warning colleague. I would say it depends on your relationship with them and whether you can trust them not to throw you under the bus.

    4. BRR*

      I get your temptation but just stay away. The best possible outcome from this is your coworker will have some time to mentally prepare. I would appreciate knowing but this situation is high risk and low reward. Only possible way to ease things that I can think of is to take that day off.

      1. FootinMouth*

        Thanks for the feedback, BRR!

        Unfortunately, I am unable to take the day off and will have two meetings– one in a group and one individual–with the big boss that morning. His meeting with my co-worker is scheduled in the afternoon.

        To ease my discomfort, I have scheduled myself to be viewing space and meeting with event staff at another location for the time leading up to the meeting through its conclusion. The meeting location is several miles away, so I’m hoping for the “out of sight, out of mind” principle to take over my brain, at least in the short term.

    5. Clever Name*

      Please don’t warn your colleague. Honestly, I don’t really read this is an office politics situation. I think it’s more that you probably need to be more circumspect in what you say and to whom. For the time being, I’d work on not saying anything even remotely speculative to anyone. Maybe at some point you can figure out who will keep your confidence and who won’t. Always assume that anything you say may get back to your boss.

      1. FootinMouth*

        Clever Name, thanks for your comments.

        You’re correct that I need to take much more care in choosing my confidantes, especially when speaking of colleagues.

        This particular situation is a bit unusual in that the co-worker who is meeting with the big boss has a history of stirring the pot and causing dust-ups with one of the boss’ favorite employees. This dynamic began prior to my short tenure and will probably continue until at least one of the involved parties either resigns or is fired.

        1. Clever Name*

          Ugh. Yeah, anything that gets said to a pot-stirrer will probably be shared in such a way as to make you look as bad as possible. Stay far away.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I agree with the others that are saying just lay low.

      This does sound interesting though. If I am reading this right, this person gave you info that was unsettling, but accurate. Six other people can attest to the accuracy. The boss thinks the info is false.

      Let the chips fall where they may on this one. It sounds like seven people (total) should be able to tell the boss he is wrong. Let them do that for you. You have done enough, it’s their turn.

      Dealing with anxiety: From what you are saying here you are standing on the perimeter of the problem. You did not cause the problem, you simply participated in what was already going on. You have apologized and promised to handle things differently. It does not get any better than this. A logical boss realizes you cannot offer a pound of flesh.

      Dealing with guilt: Carrying too much guilt is similar to saying “Yes, I can control the actions of the people around me and I failed dismally.” Well, we know that is NOT true at all. Each person involved here is responsible for their own actions. Annnd it is up to them, not you, to defend their actions to the boss in an adequate manner. Take care to own the parts of the situation that are JUST yours.

      Check this out. Are you, perhaps, feeling a bit isolated now? Sometimes isolation comes with guilt and anxiety. These three emotions tend to encourage each other to get worse. This will pass. It might be a week or a month or more, but it will pass, I promise. Nothing lasts forever. Fortunately, the nature of business is to keep moving. And this will move also. From what you say here someone will explain to the boss that he is the one who is not seeing the facts of the matter and the boss will be forced to deal with that aspect of the story.

      In my mind, this sounds like things would not have come to a head if the boss had done something different. Why is he not aware of this problem? Why are people talking behind his back and not showing him the problem? These are the things that should come to light here. Yeah, so stuff is going to change in a bit. One of the changes that will become apparent is that this does not all fall on your shoulders, you can exhale.

    7. JGray*

      I know it’s hard but you really just need to lay low and do not let your coworker know about the upcoming discussion. Unfortunately, there are times where management seems to think that keeping things quite or saying something that is only partly true is the way to go. People find out and employees talk to no matter how hard management tries everyone still finds out. Don’t be so hard on yourself- the feelings you are having means that you are human and in all honestly how could you have known how things would work out. It is okay to voice frustrations. I also think that now you know who to voice them too perhaps you have a friend who you can talk to instead of a coworker who will tell your manager.

    8. Argh!*

      Bad actors get what they deserve. If you hadn’t said something, eventually someone else would have. You aren’t the guilty party – they are, so you shouldn’t feel guilty. Your loyalty should be toward your paycheck, not to a jerk of a coworker.

  10. Little Teapot*

    Hey y’all! Trainee social worker needing advice! Week after next I am starting my first three & a half month placement in social work – I am in Australia but would appreciate any pearls of wisdom! I’m not coming in completely blind as I’ve worked in the industry for 7 years but I don’t have specific case management experience. Any advice is welcome! Thanks :)

    1. afiendishthingy*

      I’m not a social worker but very similar, and a lot of my work is analogous to case management. Any particular questions? One of the tough things for me going from being a paraprofessional/direct staff to being a clinician was feeling like I needed to have all the answers to staff and family questions, because I’m the one who writes the treatment plans. (I’m sure this is not remotely limited to this field.) But it really is ok to say “Hmm, let me think about/check into that and get back to you.” Somebody on here had a phrase, I think it was “confidently uncertain” which I like. After a year I still feel pretty new but there’s not nearly as much of that panicked feeling when I get a question, sometimes because I have enough experience to give a decent answer right away, but also because I’m more comfortable saying “I’m not sure but I will find out.”

      1. Prismatic Professional*

        +1

        The freedom of being able to say, “I don’t know, but I will find out and get back to you” is amazing. I’d also have a list of common resources needed (will vary by population). I have food pantries, clothing closets, crisis hot lines, shelters, and specific mental health resources (bereavement, domestic violence, drug addiction, LGBTQ+ positive).

        I also have a problem solving playlist that I made after reading Chip and Dan Heath’s Decisive. (Questions include: What other resources do you have? Where can you find that information? What can you accomplish where you are staying? Within walking/biking distance? Who has solved your problem before [neighbors? family? friends?] and what did they do? What has worked in the past, even if only once?)

    2. Lizzie*

      Oh! Welcome to social work! :)

      Just to clarify: is this a field placement from a social work program at a university/etc.?

        1. Lizzie*

          Oh, awesome. Congrats!

          If your field placement is awesome and amazing and very in line with what you think you’d like to do — ask tons of questions, take copious notes, and dedicate some effort to making significant connections and establishing relationships. In my MSW program (admittedly in the United States, not in Australia, so your mileage may vary), probably 75-80% of my cohort was offered a position where they were doing their final field placement, and their first placement influenced the places they gunned for in their final placement. Making connections now (and later, when you do your second placement if there is one in Australia) will help you with that if you’re interested in staying. So get to know people and what they do, what they love about their jobs, and do whatever you can to make yourself stand out as a great client advocate and someone they might want to invest in later on — or encourage someone else to!

          If it’s not so great — and that does happen — still ask questions and take notes, but realize that although that three month placement isn’t the best, you’re learning everything you want to learn *not* to do, and that’s still valuable. Make great use of your advisors and seminar leaders (if you have those in your programs). Do still make connections, but don’t make them by commiserating or complaining with people. Stay carefully neutral in a placement you don’t like and highlight the things you do get insight into in a positive way when you start looking for your second placement.

          I agree with AcidMeFlux — keep a journal of the good and the bad, but keep that private unless you’re taking seminar and will be journaling, and feel the need to bring any of that up to your seminar leader. Look back on this when the placement is done and be proud of how much you will have definitely grown and evolved as a social worker in such a short time!

          Above all, remember that although it serves you well to do what you can to be memorable in a positive way and to prove yourself an asset overall if you’re interested in working in that area later, you are there to learn before you are there to do anything else. You are expected to ask billions of questions, need (and seek out!) guidance, trip up occasionally and get a handle on what professional environments are like. You will jack something up at least once. Someone will be able to fix it. All of these things are scary and perhaps slightly embarrassing, but perfectly okay.

          Drop a comment in the open threads sometime, I’d love to see how you’re doing once you’ve settled in!

    3. AcidMeFlux*

      Keep a journal (not on your work computer) of the everyday happenings, the feedback you get from supervisors, comments from clients. Being able to look back and see what you were doing and thinking a few weeks/months ago in a learning situation like this is very helpful, and looking back at it again long after it’s over will really give you perspective.

  11. Fundraiser*

    Do you think working at a “controversial” nonprofit impacts your career? I work in fundraising and have an interview with planned parenthood. I’m really interested in the organization and this position but thinking long-term will it have a significant impact on applying to future jobs?

    2. puddin*

      Yes, I think it will impact your career. However, in the balance I think that just as many employers will be drawn to you because of this work experience as those who will pull away. It will change your job hunt dynamic and possibly your career trajectory, but I do not think it will impact your overall chances of success.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I commented below, but I wanted to address this part in particular — it’s true. I’ve been brought on to do work by quite a few mainstream, relatively cautious companies who know my professional background (marijuana policy! animal rights radicalism! shocking! ) and aren’t bothered by it.

    4. KT*

      What do you want to do next? If say, you eventually want to be a campaigner for the Republican party or a Conservative Christian group, probably a poor career move. But otherwise, I don’t see it impacting you.

    5. Gillian*

      I think the biggest impact it would have would be to limit the kinds of nonprofits you would work at in the future – right or wrong, most nonprofit employees are expected to identify at least somewhat with the organization’s mission. So if you worked for Planned Parenthood, you’d probably never be able to be hired at a later date by an organization on the other end of the ideological spectrum.

      1. Anony-moose*

        Agreed. And then there’s the question…would you want to? I would love to work at an org like PP and would NOT want to work somewhere that wouldn’t hire me based on that work experience.

        1. Gillian*

          Definitely! I think a lot of the issues you’d potentially run into, you’d self-select out of anyways.

        2. Fundraiser*

          I definitely won’t go really far in the other direction. But I’m thinking about places like universities and arts organizations.

          Also I appreciate how this has stayed career focused and non-political.

          1. Anony-moose*

            I think the only area it might be an issue could be grants. I’m a fundraiser for an educational foundation and we do tons of sex ed with our kids. In fact one funder completely underwrote our sex ed program. Yet other funders are very conservative, so we don’t shine a spotlight on the fact that we’ve worked with Planned Parenthood and teach comprehensive sex ed. (Of course, we don’t hide it, either).

            If you were applying somewhere where major funders or board members were opposed to Planned Parenthood that might raise a red flag, but I think that in general you’re probably ok!

          2. MsM*

            No, the bigger issue is going to be convincing them why you’re looking to get out of the policy field. And as others have said, it could be seen as a benefit to those organizations who want someone with experience managing large campaigns or complex grants in an environment where there’s a lot of scrutiny and pressure to get everything right.

          3. Bagworm*

            I can tell you that after several unsuccessful applications to my alma mater (a Jesuit university in the Midwest), I was able to connect with an acquaintance in HR there and she confirmed my suspicion that my time work at Planned Parenthood pretty much immediately rules me out. Of course, one of their hiring criteria is related to if your values are aligned and (despite my knowing plenty of staff and professors who fully support PP, including a nun) my former employer definitely is an issue related to my “values”. That does bug me some but generally, in the private sector, I don’t think I would want to work somewhere that had such an issue with my work there.
            On the other hand, I had one interview (eventual job offer) from a government organization (totally unrelated to healthcare or reproductive rights) where the director told me explicitly that my time at PP was one of the reasons she wanted to interview me. In addition to supporting PP, she saw my experience there as representative of my commitment to things that are important to me and having the capacity to navigate potentially rocky political waters (our PP had the largest Republicans for Choice group at the time I worked there).
            Despite the minor annoyance mentioned above, I am so, so glad I worked there. It was amazing to get to go to work every day at a place where I was passionate about the mission.
            Good luck!

    6. Jerzy*

      Firstly, Planned Parenthood, while only associated with abortions among the uninformed, is first and foremost, an organization providing medical care to women in need. Among people who are more well-informed about what they do and do not do, this is far from a “controversial” organization.

      I wouldn’t think you’d be able to easily transition from a career at Planned Parenthood to, say, The Heritage Foundation, or some right-to-life organization, but if you’re going to continue in either the medical field or that of more progressive nonprofits, or even in many, many for profit businesses, this career move shouldn’t be a problem.

      Good luck, btw!

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, huge, huge portions of the country don’t consider PP “controversial” at all. And I don’t mean that in the sense of “well, people on the left don’t consider it controversial”; I mean that even most middle of the road people don’t. It’s a women’s health care organization to most people.

        I’ve worked for controversial organizations (animal rights, drug policy); PP isn’t going to get you those reactions from most people.

        1. Fundraiser*

          This is true. I have a horrible addiction to reading comments on news articles (like slowing down to see a car accident) and with the recent press PP has gotten I think my perception has been skewed.

        2. Anx*

          I think this is entirely region dependent.

          Where I live now, I think animal rights advocacy or drug policy work would be far more mainstream. Tim Tebow’s mom spoke at our local convention center this year and even the public comm college refers students to a crisis pregnancy center for women’s health.

          I never would have guessed this when I lived in a conservative area in the NE.

    7. Rex*

      Unless you hope some day to work at a nonprofit completely at odds with PP, I think it is a strength. It shows that you can fundraise in a more challenging environment than, say “save the puppies”. That you can think about strategy and framing and all the more complex issues that inevitably arise. That you can handle being attacked. These are usually considered good things.

      1. Fundraiser*

        Wait, is save the puppies hiring?!?! I want that job! Chief Puppy Officer

        But really that’s a good point for future jobs because I think every organization has a set of challenges they need to overcome when fundraising.

    8. Lucky*

      I think it depends on whether you would be staying in a more liberal environment post-this job. If you’re staying in the non-profit world, you’ll likely see many liberal-leaning organizations (and liberal-leaning people at those organizations) who would have no problem with PP.

      If you won’t necessarily stay in non-profits, or if your dream is to work with a conservative-leaning organization, you may find (or suspect) that your resume is being round-filed because of your PP experience. Even then, HR is a woman-dominated field, and most women (even conservative women) like PP. But if your dream is to head up a future republican presidential campaign, this may be a problem.

      Personally, in my field (law), PP experience would help lift your resume to the top of the pile. I’ve found that non-profit, grant-funded organizational experience turns out hard-working, motivated, problem-solving people, and I like to work with those people.

      1. Fundraiser*

        I want to stay in nonprofits and I’ve only worked at two organizations so I don’t want to make sweeping generalizations from that but it seems nobody has been super far right. That they would let results trump personal ideology.

    9. InterviewFreeZone*

      My experience has been that it only has an impact with organizations or hiring managers who have a personal bias against whatever that former employer’s mission was. I work for a controversial organization and it has not hurt me, to my knowledge.

    10. SystemsLady*

      I’m grew up in a swing state in the Midwest where I’m pretty sure 25% of voters on the right would be proud communists if the anti-abortion movement were on that side, and it’s true that quite a lot of people who take it that seriously are the same people who would’ve taken that PP Abortionplex Onion article seriously. (Oddly, 50% of those people also don’t seem to care about other social conservative hot-button issues).

      So I definitely get the perspective you might be coming from.

      But no matter what your Facebook feed looks like, the statistical fact of the matter is that people who find Planned Parenthood controversial are not a huge chunk of the population, and people who would take that to work are a smaller chunk still. I’m not saying you won’t run into a resume-scanner or two who will toss your resume, but in the career area you’ve picked, you will probably end up OK.

      1. BRR*

        “I’m pretty sure 25% of voters on the right would be proud communists if the anti-abortion movement were on that side”

        This is one of the best comments I have ever heard.

    11. AcidMeFlux*

      One of my favorite jobs in teaching was in health care education, working with medical students. It had a definite strong feminist slant to it (though not radical). Over the years it’s gotten almost 100% positive reactions from potential employers. The couple of times anyone raised an eyebrow, it was clear anyway that I wasn’t suited for that job. Consider that citation on your resumè as a litmus test for how interviewers will perceive you in general.

    12. Bluebell*

      I also agree that it depends on where you live, and where you might want to work next. Also – what’s the reputation of the nonprofit in your city/region? I can tell you that here in the Boston area, PP has had a lot of excellent fundraisers, so seeing that on a resume would impress me.

    13. Sydney Bristow*

      A friend of mine has spent her 5-year career to this point trying to steer clear of jobs at places that might impact her future job search. Over that time though, she has discovered how truly passionate she is about one of those fields she was sort of avoiding. Now she really wants to get into it but is having trouble because she doesn’t have a ton of experience to back up why she is interested in the cause. She’s volunteering for those types of orgs now to back up her interest. She’s told me that she wishes she had just gone for it in the first place when she was right out of school so she could just continue on that path.

      Based on her experience, I would think about whether you want to be in that kind of work (or at least work at places that won’t think negatively about your PP work) in the future.

    14. Anon PPer*

      Hi, possible future comrade. :) I’m a regular, but I’m going Anon for this.

      I will say, my experience working at PP is that the networking opportunities are incredible. I have met Cecile Richards; several local and state-level politicians and all of their people; dozens of community activists and people from a broad spectrum of non-profits. It’s true, you’re not going to meet a lot of people on the other end of the spectrum, and if you want to move on to a conservative or faith-based non-profit it *could* be tricky (then again, I recently had an employee leave for a Catholic org, so your mileage will vary wildly), but–especially in Public Affairs and Development–the opportunities to connect with other similar orgs (off the top of my head, local and state DOH; community health providers; LGBTQ resource orgs; every kind of social service provider imaginable, and the more intuitive ones like Med Students for Choice, NARAL, ACLU and whatever your state has for a Family Planning lobby group) are huge.

      As others have said, though, usually if you’re inclined to work at PP, the places that would hold that against you are not the ones you’d want to work for anyway. I suppose it’s possible you could apply to a corporate job where the hiring manager–on a personal level–would hold that against you, but you run that risk entering into any kind of nominally politicized work. Not to create a false equivalency, but you never know: you could interview with a militant vegan who hates that you used to work for KFC. Personally, working for PP has been a big boost for my career (though obviously that won’t be true for everyone), and I think you’re just as likely to find a hiring manager who wants to interview you because you worked at PP as you are the opposite.

      I think to work with us, you have to believe the strength of our mission outweighs the potential drawbacks. I put my face out there in my community, knowing it could have ramifications, even beyond my professional life. But I am so, so proud of what I do (and of my team; I truly believe they’re the very best around) that I am happy to go back and do it every day, in spite of the potential risk. Working in Development, it’s going to be something of a delicate balance (sometimes reaching out to establish new funding streams that may or may not be supportive) but many affiliates have robust community ties already and have a good idea of who not to approach.

      I love working for PP (obviously), and I can’t imagine going back to the regular world where they don’t talk third wave feminism in the break room. Good luck!

  12. Sutter*

    I need to get better at telling my boss, “Hey, this problem is too big for me to solve on my own, and nobody else on the team knows what to do either. Who outside of our team can I go to for help?” I’m normally all about learning-by-doing independently, but I had a situation this week where I tried to problem-solve something that was outside of my expertise by seeking out help elsewhere in the organization… which my boss was not happy about me doing without consulting him first. There was a broader context that he hadn’t shared with me when he told me to get this done, which changed the situation from what I thought it was. Aaargh.

      1. Nom d' Pixel*

        I was thinking of a variation on that, something along the lines of “can you recommend someone in another department who can share their expertise?” However, if I need the expertise of someone from another department, I just go to that person directly, and my boss appreciates my initiative, so I think it depends on your boss.

    2. periwinkle*

      I agree with E’s advice – ask your boss how he wants such situations handled. My boss is pretty much the opposite of yours as he expects us to be resourceful (but still sensitive to organizational politics) when we need help outside our group’s expertise.

      It’s pretty complicated here because the company is beyond huge and highly vertical in structure. On the plus side we have a ton of people who have been here for more than a decade and have moved around the company. I work with a person who knows this other person who used to work with a third person who reports up to the manager who is a peer of the person managing the department from which I need assistance. That’s our culture – cultivating a broad network is essential for working up to those prime, visible projects. (that culture also encourages cooperation from those distant connections who are also trying to broaden their own networks!)

  13. Spooky*

    Hooray for Friday!

    I’ve always had full-time positions, and thought of freelance as being something a little less stable, less of a time commitment (say a few days a week instead of all five) and with less benefits (ie no vacation.) But recently, I’ve been seeing more and more postings for “full-time freelance” positions. My company has even replaced my manager with a full-time freelancer. Contrary to what I thought, she’s supposed to be on-call during all standard work hours and has already taken two vacations.

    So what exactly is the modern version of “full-time freelance?” How does it stack up against regular full-time positions, and against the older notion of freelancing? What’s the difference?

    1. KT*

      Freelance is almost never LESS of a time commitment. The work IS less stable, so freelancers often kill themselves to shore up funds for a rainy day–some months I would make 4x normal income and I’d be rolling in dough, other months I’d have droughts of work. It requires careful budgeting to make sure you have money for the bills instead of blowing it all during the “feast” period.

      Freelancing just means I have control. Of course I have vacation–I can take off whenever I want (that’s the fun of it!), I just don’t get paid. So I often take vacation during those drought periods–because I can. Then during the busy seasons, I often put in 80 hour weeks, so it balances out. If my client ticks me off, I can dump them for annoying me. (Of course, they can do the same, which is why it’s important to diversify). But it’s empowering to know that I don’t have to take crap from someone–if they’re unreasonable, I tell them I will no longer work for them and move on.

      So in summary:

      Pros: I can make more money (multiple clients, as many hours as I want), more flexibility in hours/vacation, personal accountability

      Cons: Less stability, dry periods, lack of benefits (I self-purchase)

    2. Not So Sunny*

      That sounds like a contractor position, which is common. You promise a company full-time hours on-site (usually) and get no/few benefits. For example, I am a contractor through a talent agency and have been placed in a company at full-time hours. I get no PTO (including holidays) and can purchase health insurance through the agency.

      The old notion of freelancing, IMO, is about working from a home studio on a project basis.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Where I am, you can’t be a “full-time freelancer” and work at one company. You can be a contract worker — where the terms of your employment has defined beginning and endpoints. But you cannot be, say, someone’s admin assistant and invoice your hours every week for 52 weeks of the year.

        I am a “full-time freelancer” in the sense that I work independently on a project basis for local businesses. I buy my own stuff, remit my own taxes, etc. And what KT said about the dry periods.

    3. voluptuousfire*

      I think “freelance” has become the new term of choice instead of “independent contractor.”

      1. AcidMeFlux*

        And a new way to get suckered into doing more of the same work for less money while paying for your own benefits and vacation/sick time.

      2. Anon for this*

        Companies and freelancers actually have to maker sure they fully understand and follow all applicable laws regarding freelancers. You can’t just use someone as a full-time employee and call them a freelancer. There are specific tax implications, etc. and the IRS will look at whether someone is only “freelancing” for one company.

      3. I'm a Little Teapot*

        Yeah, “full time freelance” sounds like it’s probably illegal misclassification. Which is generally also a red flag for other Bad Stuff. I worked a couple of illegally classified “independent contractor” positions when I was young and desperate. One was run by a crazy 9/11 Truther who spouted his bizarre beliefs to any potential client who walked in, barely paid people anything (I made $250 in 3 months, seriously), and had a super sketchy arrangement where his horribly underpaid 23-year-old recent grad secretary whom he was rather creepy to was “generously” allowed to live in a spare room in his house for only $200 a month in exchange for being on-call 24/7 to do his housework; on what he paid her it was literally the only place she could afford. (Emotional manipulation was his strong suit; he’d find desperate young people and convince them he was doing them a huge favor and they’d never get a better job anywhere else, both because they weren’t good enough and because other employers were all eeevil.) The other was run by a petty micromanaging tyrant with impossible expectations who made me cry every day and also turned out to be sexually harassing one of my coworkers while deliberately giving her bad references so she couldn’t get a job anywhere else.

  14. Windchime*

    We are currently searching for candidates to fill two new positions, and have had such weird problems. Because of the nature of the position, we have posted the jobs on our company website and are also going through a couple of recruiters. The candidates that we’ve gotten through the website are not the problem; we’ve only had a three apply through there but two have sailed through the phone screen and have been offered interviews.

    But the candidates who are coming through the recruiters — yikes! The Hiring Manager has it set up for the candidate to call in; she tells the recruiter a time frame and the recruiter communicates with the candidate and sends out the exact time in a calendar appointment. Here is a sampling:

    —The woman who called a day early for her phone screen, and then called HR, the Hiring Manager and HER manager, to chew everyone out for not answering the call. Um, no—you called a day early. Even after that, the Hiring Manager still chose to do a phone screen (on the correct day) and the candidate demanded to be hired at the top of the range and promoted to Senior after one year.

    —The man who sounded like he was heavily medicated. We tried asking him a few technical questions, and he would answer in monotone, short phrases. “Tell me what your typical duties are in your current position?” “I optimize the query.” We finally gave up.

    —The guy who rambled on and on for 7 minutes, non-stop, until the Hiring Manager finally stopped him.

    —The job hopper who never spent more than 18 months in a position. We thought he surely must be a contractor; nope. They were all FTE positions. The only questions he had for us were about schedule flexibility and working at home.

    —The guy yesterday whose resume looked pretty good. We thought, “Hey, this guy looks like he might be a possibility!”. Then he no-showed for the phone screen. We waited 15 minutes, then the Manager notified the recruiter that the guy was a no-show. He finally called in 20 minutes late but …..too late. If he can’t read a simple email then he probably won’t work out here.

    It’s very discouraging. I know there are smart, qualified people searching for jobs out there but where are they!??

    1. Violetta*

      Sounds like your recruiter is the problem. Shouldn’t they do at least a cursory phone call with them to screen out the worst?

      1. Windchime*

        I agree. We finally stopped using Recruiter A because they were sending us bizarre candidates. Recruiter B has a good reputation and we’ve found several awesome people through them in the past, but this current batch of candidates has been baffling to say the least.

        1. Windchime*

          Nope, he knew ahead of time because the same email was sent to our manager and him at the same time. He just spaced out and was waiting for us to call him instead of him calling us, as was clearly outlined in the email.

    2. Sascha*

      I understand! I was doing some hiring once and we had a woman like your #1 – she got the time wrong, even though the hiring manager confirmed it on email (with time zones!) and then sent us a really nasty email about how unprofessional we were, even though we spent almost 30 min trying to get in touch with her after the mix up. I just don’t get why people feel the need to be so rude about stuff like that.

    3. Traveler*

      “The job hopper who never spent more than 18 months in a position. We thought he surely must be a contractor; nope. They were all FTE positions. The only questions he had for us were about schedule flexibility and working at home.”

      There are a lot of places where there is no such thing as upward mobility (whether because of corporate policy or because of managers), and the only way to achieve it is to move on to the next place.

      1. Windchime*

        18 months was his longest stint; there were many that were 4 to 6 months. He wasn’t moving up; he was moving around. I understand that people can have a spell of bad luck ( several consecutive layoffs), but this was pretty crazy.

          1. Windchime*

            I wondered that as well. It wasn’t my choice. The hiring manager wasn’t sure whether or not they were contract stints, so I think that’s why she wanted to talk to him.

            Also, even though we are in the greater Seattle area, some people don’t want to drive to our location because of the commute, so we don’t get as many applicants as one might think. Se we are a little more willing to give people the benefit of the doubt.

      2. Carrie in Scotland*

        Totally agree with this. My longest job is from 2006-2008 (18 months) in retail which has little to do with my job now (admin). 2 of those short term jobs (less than a year) were part time contracts, the rest being, as Traveler says, due to no upward mobility.

      3. Retail Lifer*

        Certainly the case in my field. I usually last 2-3 years, but if there’s no chance for a promotion and the raises remain at 0-1%, I leave and find someone who will pay me more. And then the same thing happens again, so rinse and repeat in another couple of years.

      1. Windchime*

        I know; I see them posting here every day! Smart, articulate people. Somehow we just aren’t reaching them.

        Funnily enough, I took a class a couple of weeks ago and mentioned to the instructors (in hearing of the class as we were all packing up to go) that we were looking for a couple of developers. After her coworkers left, one of my classmates came back in to exchange contact information. She seems like a great candidate and I think we will be interviewing her next week. :)

    5. Blue_eyes*

      Over here! *waves arms over head* I feel like I’m on the opposite side of this. I’m smart, qualified, reliable, etc. – why aren’t hiring managers calling me?!

      Also, that stinks. Hope you get some more decent candidates in soon.

  15. PX*

    Question for any UK readers out there:
    Have been thinking about making a move over there (while my EU passport will still be valid!) – and wanted some advice on using recruitment firms? Any tips/tricks/suggestions for good ones? Would it make sense to register before moving over (am in Europe already if it matters) or should I just make the move and then hope I can find me something quickly?

    If it matters, my background is in engineering, are there specific companies I should be targeting?

    Thanks!

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      Engineering is a big world. Depends where you end up – oil based companies aren’t doing overly well at the moment so hopefully your background is in another part of engineering.

      1. PX*

        Currently working in oil and gas, hence my rapidly ramped up job search…But my degree is in aerospace and I could probably do most things that fall under mechanical.

        For what its worth, I’m not looking for a purely technical job, but ideally something more product/project management, business improvement/analysis type thing. Even as a student I knew I wouldnt want to crunch numbers/formulae all day, but much prefer planning/organising/presenting/client facing roles – but I do want them to be technical in nature if possible – because I am an engineer after all!

    2. Stef*

      I am Italian and moved to the UK 5 years ago. Here recruitment agencies are pretty good and specialise in specific work niches. They are proactive in reaching out to you, even though they still publish listings around. That means that if you have a Linkedin account or your CV uploaded on the top job listing websites, you can be found easily, particularly if you do a specific job where the pool is limited like engineering.
      For the last two jobs, I didn’t really have to apply anywhere, I just had to decide to finally answer to the recruiters that had been contacting me for a while.
      Direct contact with companies is there, but recruiters are heavily used anyway.
      Still, if you want to check for job ads, I guess you can start with the main websites, like Monster.co.uk, Reed.co.uk and Indeed.com.
      Good luck!

    3. Waddles the Penguin*

      My experience with recruiters in the UK has been that they see my CV (usually on reed) and contact me. A lot publish stuff but most seem to just look through CVs and reach out to candidates they like.

      You could start job searching and contact a few. Most will want to know a firmish date of when you plan to arrive though so that is something to consider. For many if its more then a month-two away they aren’t going to be looking to help you for a while as most of their openings will need to be filled sooner.

      1. PX*

        Thanks, the start date issue is a good point. I know I want to start early next year, but would also like to take some time for travel in between my current contract end date, so something to consider :D

    4. FatBigot*

      How familiar are you with the different parts of the UK? You might want to narrow down your search by region a bit. Roughly speaking, the further south you go, the more you will be paid, but the cost of living (especially housing) rises disproportionately. If children are any part of your plans, then you have to contend with the further distortions to house prices and rents caused by good and bad school catchment areas.

      Universities regularly are recruiting, and overseas visitors & workers are welcome, especially from the EU. Unfortunately the jobs are normally tied to grants and thus only 2 or 3 year duration.

      As well as recruitment firms, most big firms recruit directly on their website and it may be worth trying some of these. With your background, Rolls-Royce seems an obvious target.

      1. PX*

        Thanks! I do know enough to know that North = cheaper and South = expensive, luckily I’m not really aiming for a specific place other than reasonably sized city because I’m a city person. And no kids or partner to consider which keeps me flexible. So if you have suggestions they are more than welcome!

        Alas, Rolls-Royce constantly seem to have jobs which I look at and go, its a stretch, I could probably do it, but you probably want someone with more experience. The few applications I’ve sent in have just been automatic rejections, which is part of what triggered the thought of going the recruiter route.

          1. PX*

            Oooh. I probably wouldnt have thought of them, in my head you would need more of an Industrial Design background, but having had a look, they seem like a great place to work and I’ve seen a position that caught my eye. Now to figure out how to deal with the fact that they WANT salary expectations upfront….

            1. FatBigot*

              There is one obvious path that has not been discussed: The engineering institutions. Most branches of engineering in the UK will have their own institution that, among other things, publishes a magazine for members. The main ones are IET (Engineering and Technology Magazine) and IMechE (Professional Engineering magazine). These obviously have job adverts and notices of engineering career fairs. The IET Jobs board is publicly accessible at http://engineering-jobs.theiet.org/

        2. misspiggy*

          It would be worth trying to get hold of someone in Rolls Royce HR for a sense of what positions they recruit for and what attributes they’re looking for. They have a wide range of roles, although there have been some recent cuts to the non-engineering posts. It is possible that you’re not going for the right type of job with them, and it can’t hurt to try for more information. They are an excellent employer and it’s a pretty nice part of the UK to live in.

  16. Bekx*

    This is hypothetical but…if you’re laid off from your company after working there a couple of years, and then get rehired after the business recovers…do you ask for a higher salary than what you left with?

    Let’s say there is maybe a year in between being laid off and being rehired. Maybe you are working, maybe you aren’t.

    This isn’t happening to me or anyone I know…it was just a shower thought.

    1. Ad Astra*

      It would depend on a lot of factors, but I think most of the time my answer would be yes. Cost of living will no doubt increase over a year, so presumably the market rate for the same set of skills would increase too. And of course if you come back as a more experienced candidate or you have new, marketable skills, that would increase your value.

      On the other hand, if you were grossly overpaid to begin with, you might not get much traction asking for more money. Same goes for if your market is flooded with people who have your skill set (which often is the case after big layoffs).

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      I don’t think it hurts to ask, knowing that they might say no. If I were working somewhere else, I would definitely ask.

    3. Technical Editor*

      I would! I’d also ask for other things (like an extra week of vacation or a higher bonus percentage) so when the next layoff inevitably comes, you’ll hopefully be in a better position than the others.

      1. Kyrielle*

        Also – and the “extra week of vacation” made me think of this – ask to be re-hired with your previous tenure counted. So if you had been an employee for 1 year and 10 months, then two months after your re-hire you count as an employee for “two years”. Anywhere where any of the benefits scale with time employed (as weeks of vacation often do, and sometimes vesting, etc.), this can be fairly handy.

  17. Sad or What?*

    During lunch with other female coworkers yesterday I found out that it’s actually pretty common for most of us to cry about work. I’ve never been one much for crying, but this job is driving me to that. While it’s great to know I’m not alone, why are we all working at a place that makes us cry?

    1. Barbara in Swampeast*

      The one place that made cry I left the next day. I was on the ropes anyway and just couldn’t take anymore idiocy like, “Sarah said you didn’t say hi to her in the hallway. Why can’t you get along with people.” I called the temp agency I had worked for before that job and they were happy I was back. That was a Thursday. On Friday they called with a job on Monday.

      It was night and day. The temp job wanted to keep me permanently, but it was reception and not for me. It was nice to be treated like an adult instead of a misbehaving six-year-old. Took me years of looking over my shoulder to get over the job that made me cry.

      1. RoseRed*

        This is where I’m at now. I’m hating the “I can’t cite anything you’re doing wrong, but people don’t like you and it must be your fault” game.

    2. TheLazyB (UK)*

      That’s awful :( are you wanting to see if it’s fix-able or has it made you want to leave/more?

      Or something else?

      You have my sympathies. It sucks working somewhere that makes you cry :(

    3. AMT*

      That sucks – I had a job that I loved the first two years but quickly grew to hate… it was miserable. I was sticking it out for a set period of time (my husband was having brain surgery and I needed to be home for a month while he recovered), but planned to start looking for a job as soon as he was well. (Didn’t work out that way – two days after my leave I was fired, not for performance but because they knew I wasn’t happy. So thoughtful of them, ugh!). Anyway – what I was trying to work my way around to is that even if it’s AWFUL its also scary to leave – obviously there are terrible workplaces out there and you are at one of them, but what if the next one is even WORSE???? Because you usually can’t tell before you start a job, or else you probably wouldn’t have taken it. Better the devil you know and all that.

      1. AcidMeFlux*

        I get you, but….once you start thinking “I have to stay, it might be even WORSE out there…” then it’s REALLY time to get out. That’s a sign your mental health is being affected. I know sometimes you’ve just got to slog on to survive, but start looking and mentalizing; it’s not me, it’s them. Because once you’re really depressed and beaten down, you won’t be an attractive job candidate for anybody.

        1. RoseRed*

          Agreed. I definitely started realizing my mental health was being affected when I thought this, and even more so when I started believing that I had to stay because nobody else would want me. Work is kind of gaslighting me right now, which is contributing, but most places have hiring timelines that don’t fit with my “get out immediately” timeline, so it looks like I’ll be here awhile. Despite wanting to be out of things, I want to make sure that wherever I end up is a good move both in terms of being a better workplace and being good for my career on the whole.

        2. AlanS*

          100% agree. I had a boss who made a point of telling me a meeting was completely confidential then reported falsified versions of my comments (e.g., me saying I was happy our project was growing and was looking forward to the opportunity to learn more became me saying that I was sick of the low-level work and couldn’t believe I didn’t have more responsibility) to his boss, who then confronted me about these supposed comments in yet another “confidential” meeting. I was so thrown by the many trying experiences with this manager (and lack of recourse) that I ran to the first place that offered me a job. And the new boss had a habit of screaming mercilessly at his employees throughout the day, threatening to fire everyone, leaving leftovers to rot around the office, and other fun stuff. I know it’s not always an option to leave, but sometimes a consequence of staying in a bad place too long is that you don’t have the focus to make better choices when you finally do leave.

    4. Lizzie*

      Bills still have to be paid, I guess. I’ve stayed in some really horrible situations because I really just didn’t have any other options at the time for a variety of reasons, and my landlord wouldn’t have cared if I hated my job, just whether or not he was getting his check. There was nowhere else that I could go for money if I just up and quit, and I wasn’t finding things that would pay me as much or more than the position that I had.

      I did quit to go somewhere for less pay once, though … I worked at a butcher shop, the owner was a brand of cruel to me I had not yet encountered and I cried before and after work every day for the six months that I worked there. (and I don’t mean silent tears behind the steering wheel, I mean full-on sobbed until I felt sick). I ate a lot of plain rice and ramen noodles, but I didn’t cry as much.

    5. Mme Pomme-p-door*

      I rather like my job, the company I work for, and the people I work with day-to-day. However, I have cried at work more in the past year than I’d ever admit to anyone in person.
      Much of this is due to working with another department on a project – they would change meeting times without notification (and then ask why I wasn’t there), implement changes without checking the impacts to other parts of the company, and generally do completely strange things, expect the rest of us to go along with their secret code & punish everyone if we don’t. It was like being Alice in Wonderland – the sheer frustration & unreasonableness just gets to you.

    6. Windchime*

      I think it’s possible to get job-related Stockholm syndrome. I think that’s what I had, anyway. I had worked at this place for 22 years (in different roles). So for most of my adult life, I had been a proud employee of OldJob. Then they decided to close down our department and they put us all on the implementation team of NewBillingProduct. We had an impossibly small team, a truly impossible timeline, and a manager who knew NOTHING. Believe me, most of us spent at least part of every day crying. It still took me over year of that to seriously contemplate leaving, but once someone reached out to me with another job, I was GONE.

      Sometimes things have to get really, really bad first.

    7. Nom d' Pixel*

      Is this a weekly cry, or a cry every couple years? If you work at a place long enough, eventually something will get to you. I have seen most of the people (women and men) in my department cry in the 12 years that I have been here. The job is fairly high stress and requires a very difficult skill set. However, if you are regularly crying at work, that is a problem.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I had a job where I cried on the way to work and I cried on the way home, every. single. day. Now it is my gold standard for comparison with any new job.

      I was surprised when one boss mentioned his wife comes home crying every night. I was doubly surprised that he did not see anything wrong with that. But it explained a lot of things.

      Since the Very Bad Job, I have cried from time-to-time about work problems. But usually less than a week at a clip. I do use tears to dissipate anger.
      I don’t think there is a way to accurately anticipate which places are going to reduce us to tears. I do believe in watching for red flags on interviews. And I think that sometimes I stay too long at a job, I need to start looking for a lateral or upward move quicker than I think I should. My third consideration is to make myself learn some discernment- learn to tell the difference between work places that will get better and work places that will never get better.

      My current job was NOT good when I got there. But my boss is a good person and she had a PLAN to deal with the issues. I stayed. She was in awe that I stayed and dealt with the issues and I was in awe that she kept building plans to deal with stuff as it cropped up.

  18. Retail Lifer*

    What are everyone’s thoughts on profesisonal resume writers? Is it ever worth it? I can stay at this crappy job for now if I need to, but I’m not thrilled about having to be here at 6pm on Thanksgiving again. I made it my goal LAST Thanksgiving to be out of here by now, but that’s looking less and less likely. I’ve Ask-A-Managered my resume out, but maybe I’m just not able to see it objectively. Even though my job will probably be eliminated in the future, it’s safe through the holidays at least. My boyfriend, on the other hand, was laid off last week and needs to find something as quickly as possible. Is a fancy, expensive resume possibly going to help?

    1. Traveler*

      I wouldn’t. Unless you participate in one of the rounds that AAM does it herself. A lot of them have turned out to be frauds, or people who only vaguely knew what they were doing, or gimmicks.

    2. June*

      I would find someone you trust professionally rather than pay, unless it’s AAM. We’ve heard too many horror stories here.

    3. Technical Editor*

      I do professional resumes on the side, so I’m biased when I say yes. I don’t charge a lot but my customers are very happy with the end result and generally get a better paying job within 6-8 weeks. I had a customer that went from a dead-end sales job to working at the top software firm in our area in 4 weeks. I’d say that’s pretty good.

    4. puddin*

      Welp contrary to the advice you will find here…I did hire a service about 10 years ago and had great results. Even more unlikely, I hired from Craigslist, spent about $125. I was very pleased with the results and have kept the same format since that time (for the most part). Most feedback I receive from my current resume on this last job hunt go-around was very positive or at least neutral. This may be atypical, but frankly for me it was one of the best investments, albeit an uninformed one, I have made in my career.

      Can you afford to spend $X and take the risk that you will get little out of it? Do you have the confidence that if you were provided a sub-par resume you would be able to tell (so at least you would not use it)? Are you able to carefully vet the services and ‘interview’ them to determine if they can meet your needs?

      If you do decide to take the plunge, caveat emptor and really get into the details of what you want e.g. career change, focus on X skills, break into a specific company/industry…and make sure the answers to your needs are specific and clear. Also, I have seen some places with multiple pricing levels. For me this is a red flag. What are you providing to those who pay more that I will not be getting and how can you even justify that? Do they get ‘better verbs’, a truly well organized format while the lower payments get a slopped together job? Tiered pricing seems like a gimmick and indicative of a fly by night organization to me. There are also some ‘services’ whose online presence/web site was so horrid, I could not even imagine what a mess the resume would be – they tended to be the tiered pricing guys.

      One last word, Mr puddin and I are currently looking for a resume service for his resume (he is embarking on a new career). We found what we were looking for on elance – which I think is called updesk now. We found a local provider who will be/looks to be familiar with our city, the specific industry, and the regional norms. No result as we have not pulled the trigger just yet.

      Best of luck!

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        I also had a great experience with a professional resume writer about eight years ago, and considered it a really valuable experience both for thinking through how I present things on my resume, as well as the actual changes to my resume, which were a vast improvement over my previous resume. I think I also found the writer I worked with on Craigslist!

        I think the questions that puddin asked are spot on, and will help you determine whether you might get any benefit out of one of these services. I would also say that any resume writer who’s worth using will be willing to spend time talking/communicating with you up front, about themselves, the service, and what the process entails. The writer I worked with was very clear that a 1-2 hour discussion about my background and experience would be part of the process – he wasn’t just going to take my original resume and reformat it and change the wording. He was going to talk with me about all the things I had done so that he could re-frame what was useful and most valuable to a potential employer. I didn’t have that knowledge at that point (I hadn’t found AAM!), so it was helpful for me to work with someone else who did.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      One thing I’ve noticed in the rounds of resume reviews that I offer here: When people send me their resume for feedback and note that it was done by a professional resume writer, they are nearly always in need of a lot of work. Not infrequently, the professional has done things to their resume that are actively bad and made them worse than they were before.

      I’m sure there are good pros out there (and the pool of professionally done resumes that I’m seeing might be more likely to be from people who have gone to a bad pro, which is why they’re now feeling uncertain enough to send it to me to look at), but it’s really turned me off to that industry.

      1. Retail Lifer*

        I’m going back to school at the end of this month and I took a look at the resume services they offer. All I can say is that I’m glad they don’t charge for this service, and they employ a “certified resume specialist” (or some similar title).

      2. Come On Eileen*

        I sub-contracted for a professional resume writing company for a few months while I was out of work and needed a job. I read your site every day, I work professionally as a writer, so I figured I’d kick ass at it. The company paid us $25 per resume. No matter how long you needed to spend. There was NO incentive to spend time to get things to sound amazing, because you needed to crank through several resumes a day to even approach making decent money. I stopped doing it after a few months because it wasn’t worth the hassle (several rounds of edits with the requestor, no ability to specialize in certain fields — I wrote everything from a mechanic’s resume to a NASA scientist’s resume — etc.)

        I will still help friends occasionally on the side with their resumes, and I enjoy that so much more, because I can spend time getting to know what they do, why they are good at it, and deliver a product that I know they’ll be happy with.

      3. A Bug!*

        I wonder if it’s because a person trying to make an income from writing resumes feels pressure to produce a resume that the customer will perceive as valuable as opposed to one that is actually professional and useful.

      4. Windchime*

        My son is at his wits’ end with his resume. I tried to get him to take advantage of Alison’s last round of resume reviews, but he has it stuck in his head that someone needs to actually rewrite his resume himself (rather than giving advice about it). I gave him my best “What would Alison say?” advice regarding his resume, but I think next time the review offer is made I will just purchase it for him and make him send it in. He’s a really smart, capable guy but is seriously underemployed and I really think that his resume is the problem.

    6. BRR*

      I know how hard you’ve been looking, I’d be skeptical about finding a good one. I think it’s also really tough to be able to say you need help or you don’t without seeing either of your resumes. I’d say try to find someone who’s opinion you trust and see if they’ll take a look. Somebody who does hiring or even who just recently job hunted would be the best option.

  19. Traveler*

    Salary requirements on a resume? I’m finally breaking down and applying for one of these even though I know the general consensus is that it is a red flag. Where does it go on the resume?

      2. Traveler*

        This specifically asks for me to submit a “…cover letter, resume with salary requirements to:…” I am reading that to mean they want it in the resume. Am I wrong ?

        2. Karowen*

          No, you’re reading it right. It’s weird, but there’s not much you can do about that. I would either put it in a narrative section (profile/objective/whatever) or just do a separate section called “salary requirements” at the bottom and throw it in there.

        3. Mockingjay*

          I think it was just poorly worded. Put it in the cover letter. That will enable you to provide some context: “looking for a salary range of $X to $Y, commensurate with my 10 years’ experience in custom teapot design.”

          1. Florida*

            Agree that this was probably a poorly worded sentence. Leave it off the resume. Put it on the cover letter. I can’t imagine any reasonable person eliminating you because it wasn’t actually in the resume.

        4. BRR*

          I think you’d be ok if you put it in your cover letter. I bet they just want it somewhere. I’m in a similar situation where I have previously left it out even when asked but finally I bit the bullet. I like Mockingjay’s suggestion. I put “per your request I am looking for a salary in the range of …. depending on benefits.”

  20. Gillian*

    Have you encountered acronyms in your organization that don’t match up with the rest of the world? I overheard (open office plan) someone talking with their manager about their goals for their PIP and was surprised, as I thought she’d had a long track record of good work. Turns out here PIP is the performance INCENTIVE program for bonuses, and you’re only on a PIP if you’re excelling. Anyone else come across things like this?

    1. Nerdling*

      I work for the government; acronyms are our bailiwick. And we love to take normal ones and butcher them into something different. It definitely makes for some interesting moments!

      1. periwinkle*

        Ha! I’ve been on federal contracts and thought those were acronym-heavy environments… and then I joined my current employer. We have an acronym database that pulls in terms from nearly 90 different internal glossaries. There are 45 different phrases for which PIP is the acronym. The acronym for my job title has 14 other definitions listed in the term bank. One of the first things you learn about as a new hire is the link to that database, thank goodness.

    2. Malissa*

      I worked in a retail store where they said they were going to give me a pink slip. Turns out it was just a BS write-up and not a termination.

      2. Mallory Janis Ian*

        At my university, a “pink slip” is a sheet that we can set up for students, faculty, or guests at the student union food court. They can have a group meal and instead of paying at the register, they sign the group pink slip, which is tied to our department’s campus dining purchase order.

    3. Info Mgmt*

      Frequently! Or rather, it’s a case of two different programs using the same acronym, within the same organization. My unit is called Information Management Services, and the office also has an Incident Management System. As you may guess, one of these is significantly higher-profile than the other.

      So I hear things like “Have you been trained in IMS?” and get very confused. My first response is usually “Um, yes? It’s my job?” before I realize they’re talking about something really specific, and completely unrelated to the work I do day-to-day.

      1. TheLazyB (UK)*

        Yeah, in my last org AP stood for two different things. Drove me crackers. I could usually tell from context but not always.

    4. Retail Lifer*

      In retail, the cash register/computer is referred to a point-of-sale system, abbreviated as POS. Honestly, in plenty of companies I’ve worked for, that shared acronym is an accurate description.

    5. Tagg*

      I work in healthcare. We looooove our acronyms.
      BMP, CMP, EKG, ESC (three different things depending on what you’re talking about), EUC, RUC, SOP (formerly HC), DOP, THG, IMS, ARS, ARSE (yes, really), OV, RX, DX, DES, DNC, Pt, PT, TSH, TB, XR, CT, US, CTA, MRI, VPP, CSS, PAR… I could go on and on…

      1. Windchime*

        Yes, this. And don’t forget many different names for an insurance plan: It used to be Secure Horizons but is now UHC. And all the sudden we now have Apple Health, which is really the same things as Healthy Options…or is it just plain DSHS, also known as Welfare?

        Very confusing!

    6. LQ*

      I work at a place where the name of the type of business we do is the same as the software kind of work I do. (Think working for DOL and you worked with software called DOL that was totally unrelated.) It’s worst for the consultants who come in and talk about the software/etc and everyone thinks they are talking about the org. Because no one else at the org knows the software is called that.

    7. Kyrielle*

      Okay, that would be really disorienting. Yikes. I’ve worked in places where there were acronyms that were non-standard for the wider world, but they weren’t direct reversals – they just were different subject domains.

      I also tried to get a sub-system of our software named something that worked out to THE as an acronym, so that clients could have reported if they had any issues with the THE system. I didn’t expect to succeed, which is good, because I didn’t. (REALLY good, because actually, if I had succeeded, I’d have had to live with the resulting conversations too.)

    9. Belle diVedremo*

      Oh, yes.

      STD. Standard, Sacred Theology Doctorate, and um, STD.

      Used to work in standardization, had a colleague with a Sacred Theology Doctorate (who rather enjoyed telling new colleagues he had an STD).

      And apologies to C for adopting her nom de internet. “Sunday” just wasn’t really true any more.

    10. KD*

      Last month I provided my manager a 2 page write up with no nouns outside of acronyms. The report was an ATM. Which does not in fact stand for automated teller machine but “A technical memorandum” where A is the name of the company.

      Ive learned to compile a running acronym list for every project I work on because no one uses the full name of anything in my field. For example a MOSFET which is a basic component in electronics is actually a “metal-oxide-semiconductor field effect transistor” and nobody wants to say that more than they have to.

  21. Ad Astra*

    My manager, who gets 4 weeks of vacation every year, is about to take his second week-long vacation of the summer, which is absolutely fine. Good for him. But when my coworkers and I mentioned that we only get one week of vacation per year — and, in the second year, all 5 days must be used consecutively for an audit week — he said “Yeah, we get our fair share of vacation around here. I don’t even use all mine.” Oh.

    He also makes frequent mention of working through lunch or staying after 5, which is pretty different from our company’s culture as a whole and not something the rest of our department does or would like to do. We stay late when we’re up against a hard deadline, which is pretty rare.

    Is he just being annoying, or should I take this as a cue that he values face time and “putting in the hours” more than he values output?

      1. Ad Astra*

        To be honest, I can’t remember if he said that before or after we chimed in that we only get a week, so I’m not sure if that was his “answer” to the comment or not. But it’s something he says a lot, and he seems to be sort of aware that we only get 25% of the time off. He is mostly a nice guy, but seems insensitive in a lot of situations.

        1. Ad Astra*

          And yes, it is SO WEIRD to me that nobody in this company acknowledges that one week a year is far less than the standard for entry level — nevermind that nobody in our department is entry level, and one of our employees has decades of experience but happens to be new to the company. I would feel so much better if someone who gets 3 or 4 weeks would acknowledge that 1 week is not competitive, even if they couldn’t do anything to fix it.

    2. Anx*

      I had someone talk to me for almost 10 minutes about their Labor Day Weekend Plans at work (another department). I’m hourly, no PTO. All Labor Day means to me is a 25% reduction in my pay for the week. I really didn’t want to hear all about how LDW is the bestest.

  22. Carrie in Scotland*

    So, I have a work situation (obviously!).

    The person I sit next to closest is not from the UK (she is Finnish but has been here for 30 years) and some of what she says is…abrupt/rude.

    For example, I recently moved (as documented in the weekend threads) and I have a cat. My cat was outdoors and is now, sadly, indoors. Finnish woman says “Why did you take your cat if she is only indoors?” I said, mustering up politeness that it was hopefully a temporary situation and when I buy a property, the cat will be outdoors again.

    Any advice on how to handle such comments? It made me sad, when she said that. FWIW, she also said that a thin woman was fat at some point in the past, so it’s not just me but the way she is.

        1. fposte*

          Consider that if she were in the US, she’d likely get her ass handed to her for suggesting it’s a problem the cat is an indoor cat. As a subject, Indoor/outdoor cat is up there with breastfeeding for descending into acrimony.

          1. Mallory Janis Ian*

            Yeah, I didn’t realize that was such a hot topic (even though I had read Jonathan Franzen’s Freedom) until I mentioned that my one cat is indoor/outdoor and caught holy hell about it. I guess I thought people who cared that passionately about it were confined to that book.

              1. the gold digger*

                Our cat loves to go outside. We compromise by putting her on a leash and attaching it to the clothesline. She gets to be outside but cannot wander. Even tethered, she catches small varmints.

      2. Elkay*

        I think sometimes second language speakers can come across as more rude than native speakers due to translation. I’ve heard similar things said about Dutch people speaking English (that they come across as rude/abrupt).

        1. PX*

          Nah, Dutch people are just rude :P

          (I once read a KLM magazine which put it brilliantly: “They have a reputation for being honest to the point of rudeness’)

          1. Zhook*

            I love this about my Dutch colleagues! “Your idea is terrible, here is why.” You never have to wonder what they’re thinking. :)

            1. Mallory Janis Ian*

              Same with my Finnish colleague. She would say to the design students, “Why do you make this sh*t?!!” and they loved her for it, because it wasn’t coming from a place of meanness; she was just being very forthright.

        2. Bangs not Fringe*

          Agreed.

          I also see what she said as a mere question not necessarily at dig at your cat-mothering skills. Was it possible you were expressing concern about your cat’s adjustment to living indoors or something? Clearly something prompted her question. To me it just looks like curiosity and making conversation, just rather bluntly.

          1. Dana*

            I read it as “Why didn’t you just abandon your cat, which I think is a normal thing to do since I’m just bringing it up in a total nonchalant way”.

            If that were the case, I would think less of that person based on her disregard for other people’s pets that they love and care about.

            But that’s just my interpretation.

            1. Carrie in Scotland*

              @ dana – that’s how I took it too…but again (as in the weekend threads) I have been worrying over this and am quite sensitive on the subject.

          2. Monodon monoceros*

            Agree, also, I am from the US but living in Norway, and a lot of people here feel strongly that it is natural for cats to be outdoors, and that it is cruel to keep them locked up. I have an indoor cat myself, so I have this conversation a lot.

            Many people here also are against spaying and neutering, also because they feel it is un-natural. Both my animals are “fixed” so I get to have that conversation as well…

            It’s culture, not rudeness though.

            1. Chrissi*

              It would be cruel to keep my cat outside. She grew up in a cage for the first year or two of her life (laboratory animal), so she LOVES people because she’s so used to being around them, but I tried to take her outside on a harness a few times in the backyard and she was terrified and flattened herself to the ground and wouldn’t move, then ran back inside :)

        3. Dee*

          Agreed, I’ve had a couple of co-workers, one Dutch and one Eastern European, who just act like this. They sincerely mean nothing bad, nor intend to be rude, it’s just their style. They both had difficulty fitting into the two office cultures they were in when i met them due to it but once i had a lightbulb moment, ‘oh that’s their style’ nothing they said ruffled me again because i – they weren’t trying to be rude in anyway.
          To the OP: can you ry and approach it from that perspective and see if how you feel about it changes?

    2. Monodon monoceros*

      It is possible that it is a cultural thing, even after 30 years. I think come cultures are not rude, but more direct. I deal with this a lot. For example, I work for an international organisation and we speak English at work, even though I’m the only one who’s native tongue is English. This is fine at work, but when I explain this to people I meet outside of work, but in the country I’m in, they often as “why?” in a tone of “what the hell is wrong with you guys there?” but it really is just a direct question, rather than rudeness.

      I’m confused about your last sentence so it didn’t really shed any light on the situation for me, but I would just take her comments as direct, but not think of them as rude. Especially since you just recently started working there, correct? Maybe you will find later that she is, in fact, rude, but I’d give it more time.

    3. Amanda*

      I work with a lot of non-native speakers (my native language is English and I live in the US), and some of them do often come across in English as rude, abrupt or tone-deaf. In some cultures, bluntness is not rude, just the way people communicate (I’ve had several co-workers from similar cultures say things like “that woman is fat” or announce at a meeting “I have diarrhea” who are, in my mind, pleasant, appropriate and kind people.) On the flip side, I’m sure that in French I come across as rude, abrupt and tone-deaf fairly often. So maybe that’s the issue. She might also just be a blunt person who comes across as blunter when she doesn’t have the same culture or innate language understanding that you do.

      Or maybe she’s just really rude in any language. Either way, I find that for me, I’d rather give someone the benefit of the doubt and move on.

      1. Windchime*

        A lot of this can be cultural, for sure. I work with a woman from Russia, who has been here for about 12 years. Her English is pretty good, although I sometimes have to explain some uncommon words to her. She can come off sometimes as very abrupt and rude, but she is horrified and upset when she realizes that she has upset or offended someone. She is really a kind, happy person but her lack of fancy “filler” words combine with her strong accent can make her sound much more rude and abrupt than she intends.

        1. Sweaty*

          Yeah, there are languages that have fewer words that English, e.g. fewer synonyms that mean the same thing, and fewer qualifiers. It’s just not possible to beat around the bush the same way you can in English. Plus, a non-native speaker probably has a smaller vocabulary, so they have fewer words available to them. The result is unintentional bluntness.

    4. UK Curious*

      To be honest that doesn’t sound rude to me, but maybe you’ve decided she’s being judgemental rather than curious/inquisitive? Unless she says more heinous things I wouldn’t take offence, she’s querying your actions not you. Or perhaps she doesn’t want to know more about your cat – have you talked about it a lot? Or is perhaps the move itself/temporary situation something you feel raw about which she might not be aware of?
      I would say that my experience of Finn’s is a little reserved and matter of fact, and they warm up with alcohol. She could also be like (apparently) a lot of AAM readers and not like talking about non-work matters, and so come across as nonsympathetic as its not her ‘thing’.
      Also people are weird about cats, she may not like them at all.

    5. voluptuousfire*

      Finns tend to be rather blunt. They’re not into small talk and overall I think that avoidance of trivialities does make for a more direct manner of speaking than compared to other cultures. But again, living in the UK for 30 years plus speaking English at or near full fluency would have softened those edges to a certain extent. I can see how the politeness of the Brits would be ruffled by a very plainspeaking Finnish woman.

      The Finns are known for being a very taciturn people. Very quiet and reserved but pretty spectacular people once you get to know them.

    6. NJ Anon*

      I don’t get it. Why is that rude? Dumb maybe (Of course you’re going to take your cat!) but not hearing rude.

    7. Camellia*

      And some people occasionally say something totally unexpected. I worked with a woman that was the most professional and yet warmest person I had ever met. She was a great mentor. I still do admire her very much. But one day she said, “I can’t understand why people slow down or stop for the geese that are crossing the road. They should just hit them! It’s not like they’re endangered!” I was stunned. Literally speechless.

      1. SherryD*

        Well, she’s not wrong. In my jurisdiction, you’re legally not supposed to disrupt the flow of traffic to stop or slow for an animal unless it’s big enough to hurt you (deer, moose). That being said, I think most people would stop or slow for a small animal as long as they could do so safely.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I am shuddering. The other day I was in a downtown area of a busy city near me. I was very surprised to see a group of ducklings walking on the crowded sidewalk. Oddly, there was about 40 of them, they were all different sizes but they still had their baby feathers. There was ONE adult duck leading the group. (No other adults in the group.)
        My heart went into my throat when I saw the adult lead the group toward the street. This is a four lane road, with bumper to bumper traffic. Fortunately, the adult turned back toward the sidewalk and the group followed. For a moment I thought I was going to have to jump out into traffic. But at least I know that here most people will stop.

    8. Waddles the Penguin*

      Hmmm It could really just be a more direct cultural issue.

      You might have interpreted what she said as “Why did you bring your pet if you were going to be cruel to it?” And what she could have meant was something closer to “Why did you bring the pet now if its going to cause an issue?” I know someone who when moving from London up to Birmginham left her cat with friends for a few weeks so she could get a new place set up and let the cat out. Or maybe she doesn’t have any pets so doesn’t understand the attachment.

      As for calling someone fat who is thin. Thin is an abstract concept. Maybe she genuinely thought the person was fat as in opposite of thin and it wasn’t intended as an insult but more a physical description. Idk.

      If its just the two things I would wait to see how it goes. If she says something bordering on rude again you can always say “What do you mean?” So she can expand and reword it to get a clearer idea of her intent.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. (Love your name, btw.)

        I would copy her. It sounds like she is trying to figure out why you say the things you say, so do the same. Just ask her why. Treat the situation like you are learning about each other.

        Her actions already show that your questions will be okay with her. She asks you questions. I would try to control my tone of voice when I asked, if I were the one doing this. But I would still ask. At some point you might work your way up to talking to her about tone of voice. Just because a person has learned a language does not mean they have learned the various meanings of a word that change with voice inflection. And you can also talk about types of questions or statements- but that will come later.
        If you give her the benefit of the doubt you have nothing to lose and you might gain something.

        1. Jasmine*

          Chiming in with an additional thing about tone of voice. Finnish does not use inflection to convey unspoken meaning, it uses stretched out sounds to distinguish words. Which basically means it can be very difficult to figure out “implied” meaning if a Finnish speaker is using English.

          UK English, even more so than Canadian English, can be very indirect, and very dependant on tone to convey meaning. There is often no way to do that in the Finnish language, and more than that, it is specifically an offensive thing to do. See the note below about how my boyfriend views this topic!

          Example: In Canada, ordering a beer would literally sound like “Can I please have a Molsen?” or ” I’ll have what’s on tap, thanks” In Finnish, often the literal words are “Give me beer”. Three words. No softening. No “politeness”. Just a simple statement of what is required. They do not have an equivalent for the word “please”.( They do have “thank you”. “Thank you very much” is reserved for really, really large things). When you bump into someone the appropriate response is basically “oh, dear, or “oops”, not “sorry”. I could go on.

          Finland is tiny, homogenous, rural and did not go through the feudal system. They never developed “manners” in the same way as cultures with complex social hierarchies, lots of immigration, or lots of internal movement. It is not necessary to smooth interactions between people in quite the same way if you know them all, and they are mostly like you. (I’m simplifying for effect but a lot of it comes down to that).

          Basically, yes, it’s cultural. In sum: Always, always, ask for “why do you say that?” You’ll probably keel over in astonishment at some of the answers you’ll get.

          *My boyfriend of 8 years (who now has permenant residency in Canada) is from Finland. He went from a technical field to a customer service field when he moved here, which meant he had to learn cultural norms, communications, tact, rephrasing, etc. all at once and rather abruptly. He regularly offends people by making (to him) mild observational statements that sounds incredibly brash to a Canadian ear.

          Tact is not a thing he possesses; it is something he is only just beginning to grasp the concept of, and he has lived here for 5 years. He’s a very smart person with incredible interpersonal skills, he simply did not believe us for many years when we tried to explain politeness. What Canadians find polite, he interprets as lying, or decietfulness, because it is not direct. And because of the inflection thing, often nobody has any clue whatsoever that he is joking (which is unfortunate, because he is hilarious).

          He has a strong accent, and is not interested in changing it, because he actually speaks very well. He now overemphasizes inflection when he speaks in English, so we can figure things out from his tone of voice. Which means when he speaks to his family in Finnish, they laugh at him for sounding so…unnaturally bouncy.

  23. A Non*

    We had an all-staff meeting yesterday. It involved handing everyone kazoos and insisting that we play them.

      1. A Non*

        Hah, you have a much better attitude about it than I did! I’m usually okay at going along with “fun” things, but I was not having it yesterday. I did leave my kazoo on the table, but now I’m wishing I hadn’t. The best way to make sure this never happens again would be to play it while walking around the office for the next month.

    3. Anony-moose*

      This was my college…

      Nicknamed Kzoo…

      We got kazoos at graduation and had a kazoo chorus of our anthem.

      2. Whatsername*

        I just found out my team has a mandatory fun day coming up. On a boat. At a particularly unappealing lake. In September in Texas. During work hours.

      1. A Non*

        Almost half my coworkers didn’t know that. If I hadn’t been trying to die of embarrassment, I would have been shocked.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          what?? so at least they learned something.

          TBH I’m not that big on team building activities but I would have been WAY INTO THIS.

    7. Mimmy*

      Oyyy my sensory overload-prone self is seriously twitching right now!! Why did they think this was a good idea??

    8. Nom d' Pixel*

      My allergies were acting up and half of the department has colds (their kids just went back to school, so the end of August/beginning of September is always a germ fest). Unfortunately, I am now imagining a bunch of people with sinus problems trying to play kazoos.

    9. carafein*

      I’m an exec asst. My CEO had me buy a complete set of rhythm instruments (think sitting in Pre-K in a circle with wood blocks, triangles and maracas) for an off-site executive meeting (22 people). His intention was to have the upper level executives “team-build” by having a jam session. Ugh. The assistant I sent to the oversee the offsite hid the instrument box in her car and was “unable to find” them when he wanted to have the jam session. Bless her. The CEO thankfully immediately forgot about them and moved on to the next crazy idea. Sometimes I feel like I’m working for Dug the dog from “Up”. Squirrel!!!

    10. AnotherFed*

      That sounds like a hilariously bad idea! Granted, I’m pretty sure we’d spend the next week kazooing at each other anytime the manager was in earshot (did you know you can sort of talk through a kazoo?) because my office is made up of 7 year olds masquerading as responsible adults.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Hmmm I guess I am the only one who thinks this sounds like an awesome meeting. In college my roommate and I found out that a friend, an international student from Pakistan, didn’t know what a kazoo was and then we somehow found and purchased a bag of them. I have fond memories of my roomie and me playing “Cecilia” in harmony on our kazoos

  24. SophiaB*

    Happy Friday!

    Does anyone have any advice about telling my boss that I’ve applied for an internal post in another department? I think I’m going to do it via email, so some wording-help would be appreciated.

    For some back-ground, my boss and I do not get along. She does not understand the work that I do and keeps changing my responsibilities to things that make no sense and break the programme of work. She then shouts (actual shouting, for an hour or so) at me when the work packages break. I’ve had enough and I’m keen to get out of here, but I don’t want to leave the company. I’m also going to be leaving my current team in a right mess because the skillset she’s going to have to re-hire for is going to be wanting double my salary.

    The new role came up and I applied on Monday, not realising that my boss was out on leave this week. They were surprisingly quick with the interviews and interviewed me on Thursday, and from what I can tell, really liked me. They’re letting me know at the end of next week. I’m glad that it’s moving fast because I want out as soon as possible, but now I’m in a bit of a sticky position in terms of how I present this to my boss.

    I’ve also spoken to a few of my friends in the department about the interview, and although I asked them to keep it quiet, I know how the office grapevine works. So now I’ve got to tell her before I hear whether I’ve got through.

    If I thought I could deal with it, I’d let her know in person, but I’m just too tired to deal with her hysterics at this point. Can I just send her a notification:

    ‘I just wanted to let you know that I’ve applied for this role and had an interview on Thursday. I should hear by the end of the week and will let you know the outcome as soon as I hear.’

    Do I need to put anything else? She’s going to hit the roof. I’d rather keep it brief and get it over with.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Regarding the office grapevine, does your office have a policy of keeping internal transfer applications private? I wouldn’t confirm or deny unless you get the position. If you do (here’s hoping!), I would ask HR how to handle informing your boss. It might be best if it is delivered at a managerial level.

      After she has been informed, email her. Frame it as simple information with general thanks. “As you know, I am transferring to the Teapot Spout Department. I have enjoyed my time with the Handle Design team, and appreciate all the opportunities I have had. Attached is my transition plan to close out my work.”

      1. SophiaB*

        Yes, the interviewing department will keep it quiet and not contact her, but the other lady on my team already knows (because I had to go for the interview in the workday, so there was no way of hiding it). I’m trying to head off the worst of my boss’s wrath by just being straight with her so it doesn’t look like I’m screwing her over.

        Plus, there’s some planning to be done in terms of handover / recruiting for my role if I get the job. The interviewing department are looking to move fast (which totally suits me!) and I don’t want my boss to be able to delay my move by claiming that I need to wait until she’s hired someone else.

        I desperately need to learn how to manage up, I think. I do really like the wording on that email if I do get through and get the job though. It’s exactly what I need to say, but it doesn’t sound harsh. Thank you for that.

    3. ACA*

      It’s not clear – do they need to contact her about a reference? If so, what you have is fine; if not, you might as well wait to tell her until you’re ready to give notice.

    4. Artemesia*

      I would have tried to keep this on the QT as jerk bosses have a habit of derailing internal transfers. But since you already discussed it with colleagues I’d let her know asap — I might not indicate it is as likely as you think it is so as not to encourage her to try to torpedo you. (of course maybe that would backfire – hard to guess)

  25. Holly*

    I need help. So, I’m at a new job, have been here for about 3 months and I love this place. I bonded with the IT guy here pretty quickly because we’re both giant comic book nerds and we like a lot of the same other interests, etc. There’s few people here even in my age range (he’s a little older, but not by much) so it was nice to connect with one who was. Well, lately he’s been making comments…telling me I look really good when it’s t-shirt and jeans day, then adding “but you look beautiful in your dresses too.” One morning he addressed me with “what’s shakin, good lookin’?” And yesterday he said I looked hot in the dress I was wearing. Just.. unprompted. I got out of a 1:1 actual business meeting with him and he said that as I was standing. I didn’t know what to say except “thank you.”

    But it’s making me uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. However, I’m a non-confrontational person and don’t want to cause any drama. I can’t really tell anyone else in the office because we’re a small office (50 employees) and anyway, I can’t make the relationship tense because he’s the only IT guy in this office!! But I’m afraid he’ll keep escalating his comments because I’m not telling him to stop. What do?

    1. KT*

      This isn’t drama-this is pretty uncomfortable. The next time he says it, reply “That’s not cool” or “that’s not appropriate” or “Please don’t say things like that”. Don’t soften, don’t smile. It’s inappropriate, but not worth escalating to management–this is something you can nip in the bud.

    2. Sadsack*

      How about the next time he says something about how you look, you just ask, “Do you think it’s appropriate to say that?” Then just wait for his response. I mean don’ laugh or or say anything, just wait it out for him to respond. You are not causing drama. If he is reasonable, he’ll realize that he overstepped professional bounds and will apologize and won’t do it again. If he argues or blows off your question, then you know he isn’t ad niceas you thought and he has a problem.

    3. Rock*

      Well, you tell him to stop. <3
      I know it's not fun, and I know you said you're non confrontational, but a simple, "Look, man, you really got to cut that out, it's making me really uncomfortable. We have a good working relationship, and this is inappropriate," is a necessary first step.
      And then, if he keeps it up (chances are he will because sometimes people are asshats) you talk to your manager. Seriously.

      1. JMegan*

        Agreed.

        I totally get that you’re non-confrontational – I am too, in a lot of ways. But which would you rather be? Non-confrontational and uncomfortable in your workplace? Or, confrontational* and comfortable? Because “non-confrontational and comfortable” unfortunately isn’t an option in this situation, so you’re going to have to choose one or the other.

        I vote for having the difficult conversation and telling him to knock it off. You deserve to not be sexually harrassed at work.

        Best of luck, OP, it’s a crappy situation for you right now.

        *I don’t think “confrontational” is exactly the right word here. I would prefer something like “assertive,” which is not the opposite of non-confrontational, but am using the OP’s wording to illustrate the choice.

    4. Anonmanom*

      Ugh, this is one of those societal programming to be nice and not hurt feelings things I hate. I have found if you think its just harmless flirting, you can deter the normal guys with an awkward response. I prefer the raised eyebrow, maybe adding a um thanks? like you have no idea why they would say that approach for these ones. If they think you aren’t appreciating the comments, a lot of them stop.

      The best answer, the one most people will chime in now and tell you, is to tell him to stop, its not work appropriate. But I was totally the super shy, don’t hurt anyone’s feelings, how do I handle this ick, type throughout my 20s, so I get the complete inability to confront someone. So, maybe try something less confrontational and see if you can get the point across that way.

    6. fposte*

      Umpteenthing the “you tell him to stop.” That’s not a confrontation or drama, that’s a key life skill. Think of it as like driving or riding a bike–it’s never too late to learn. You’re looking for a way to tell him without feeling vulnerable by asking for what you want. It’s really important that you be able to ask for what you want.

    7. Ad Astra*

      If you really can’t bring yourself to ask him to stop (though that is solid advice), try deflecting with something like “Well that’s a weird thing to say to a coworker.” There is a small chance that he’s a fairly conscientious person who will be mortified that he sincerely misunderstood the nature of your relationship, and the comments will stop immediately.

      But there’s a decent chance he won’t immediately realize his mistake, and you’ll have to ask him to stop like everyone else has suggested. Any drama that results from a firm-but-calm request to stop commenting about your appearance is him stirring up drama, not you. He’s the one who’s out of line.

    8. TheLazyB (UK)*

      He’s causing any drama by being super-inappropriate. I bet he’s noticed that you’re not thrilled by the comments and yet he hasn’t stopped.

      Can you role-play telling him to stop with a friend/family member? I bet it you practise a few different scenarios (denial/fury/upset/etc) you’ll feel better able to actually speak to him.

      1. Rock*

        That’s good advice! The situation-unknowns are sometimes the scariest, and practicing what you want to say will also make it less uncomfortable.

    9. Someone Else*

      Even if you dislike confrontation, you have to ask him to stop. It should be direct and simply stated, i.e. ‘I find it uncomfortable when you compliment my appearance. Please do not continue to do it. ‘ If he’s a decent guy, and your bond means anything, he will just accept that you want him to stop. If he reacts negatively, then it’s a good thing you didn’t let his behavior continue without calling him out on it.

    10. MsM*

      “Look, dude, I like talking comic books with you. But if we were close enough friends for you to say that kind of stuff to me and not have it be weird, you’d know better than to say that kind of stuff to me in the first place. So let’s keep the compliments focused on work and not my looks from now on. Deal?”

      Or just go with the patented Carolyn Hax “wow.” But yeah, no more “thank you”s.

    11. JMegan*

      Also, I need to point out that his behaviour is escalating – from “you look good” to “beautiful” to “hot,” all within three months! So if you think it’s uncomfortable now, imagine what it will be like in another three to six months if he keeps on like this.

      He needs to stop, and unfortunately the only way that will happen is if you say something. I know it sucks, but there really isn’t another way around it. Good luck!

    12. asteramella*

      It’s not drama, it’s correcting a coworker about appropriate workplace norms so he doesn’t carry on escalating and 1) make you uncomfortable and less able to do your job and/or 2) get your company sued for creating a hostile work environment.

      Document what he has said and anything he does say. Tell him to stop commenting on your physical appearance. Document anything that happens after that and go to HR if he continues. If HR is competent they will ensure that he stops for good.

      1. naanie*

        seconding this, start documenting his behavior now and tell him explicitly that it is not to make comments like that at work, it is inappropriate.

    13. Waddles the Penguin*

      I love talking comic books with one of our IT guys. For a while he hit on me but he has since stopped. It wasn’t him being a jerk or anything its just that he didn’t get to mean a lot of women, especially ones who like comic books and didn’t realise his jokes/advances were inappropriate.

      A lot of romances (especially on TV) start in the workplace (I don’t recommend). Some people flirt at work and its okay and others don’t.

      Your colleague won’t know his comments make you uncomfortable unless you tell him. If he says you look beautiful and all you say is thanks. How is he supposed to know it wasn’t an appropriate thing to say?

      I got my colleague to stop by telling him. Whenever he said “hey gorgeous” I would respond with “hey inappropriate.” Or “dude not cool.” He got the hint pretty fast and knocked it off. If he hasn’t I would have had an awkward but necessary your comments are inappropriate stop now conversation. But I let him know in a slightly nicer tone first and that worked.

      But you do need to say something when he makes these uncomfortable comments so he knows to stop.

      1. LibbyG*

        Just this week a coworker I rarely see commented inappropriately on my appearance. I was surprised. I said, “I’m pretty sure you’re not supposed to say crap like that.” I wish I hadn’t softened it, but apparently it worked because he emailed me an apology right away. I think I had a good “dafuq you just say?” face going too. I second the suggestion of practicing out loud a few times. It might help to channel an assertive woman hero. Be Meryl Streep or Oprah Winfrey or Amy Pohler or whoever strikes you as both assertive and warm.

    14. AngieB*

      I hope you get a notification on the response as this thread is old but I really wanted to chime in.
      Ive recently had a HUGE weight loss (nearly 200 pounds gone) and Ive got from never being hit on to it being something that happens a few times a day. I work in a large doctors office and men from the doctors themselves, drug reps, nurses, patient and visitors. It makes me very uncomfortable, being noticed make me very uncomfortable.
      Having to deal with this and remain professional has taught me a lot about the way men think. Men are mostly simple, they hit on you because they think they can. Once politely corrected only a few have ever persisted. saying something like “by boyfriend/husband realty likes this dress too” or just throwing out in casual conversation that you aren’t on the market. since you two are friends you could also bring it up in conversation like ” i’m in a funk today, I saw someone from my old job at the gas station, he always seemed to have something to say about my appearance it made working with him so uncomfortable. I cringe at the thought of it” a white lie to make everyone feel less uncomfortable in a situation like this is fine. he’ll most likely get the hint without being embarrassed and you’ll get to have a nice work bud.

  26. Internal Interviewee*

    Yay, open thread! I’ve been waiting to ask this question. So, I have an interview next week for an internal position. Opportunities like this are really, really hard to come by in my organization, so I want to prepare as best I can. My current position is as a Teapot Maker, and this position would be as a Teapot Quality Specialist. I have gotten a lot of really positive feedback on my work as a Teapot Maker, I’ve trained other people in teapot making, etc. My problem is that my productivity in teapot making (which is a factor, though certainly not the only one, in job performance) is not so great. The reasons for my low productivity are multi-factorial. It’s partly because I am often asked to make the most complex teapots in the office, which takes more time. The aforementioned training also takes away some time when you look at the pure productivity numbers. But my productivity in the last couple of years was also adversely impacted by my own health problems (hospitalized 3x last year), and my father’s serious illness and recent death. My question is, if they ask me about my productivity, should I mention these personal factors? I’m leaning toward no, and just giving the business reasons, but I’m worried that won’t adequately explain it. At the same time, I don’t want to seem like I can’t keep my personal life out of the office or maintain professionalism. What say you, AAMers?

    1. fposte*

      I think you mention the personal factors if you took time off, because then they’re explaining time off, but you don’t do it to directly explain the productivity. So “I had a lot of trouble with my mole last year and couldn’t concentrate”–no. “I had to take some unplanned time out last year for surgery and rehab, so these are partial-year stats”–yes.

      1. Hermione*

        Agreed. Additionally, if those health concerns have since been resolved, I would also include that information “…these are partial-year stats. Those problems have since cleared up and I’m looking forward to being able to resume my usual productivity of xyz.” If they haven’t been resolved, I’d stick to fposte’s wording.

        I’m very sorry to hear about your father. <3

    2. sittingduck*

      Have they mentioned to you before that your productivity isn’t up to par, or are you making that designation yourself?

      If they do bring it up I would mention the complex nature of the Teapots you have made, but leave out the personal stuff. Is it something that is easy enough for you to calculate numbers on? If so I”d try to calculate it based on the time you were actually at work, no one can fault you for not being productive when you aren’t at work – so really the productivity should be based on the time you spent at work divided by the number of Teapots you made – does that make sense?

      If you do need to mention something, I’d just say that you had some family matters/health matters to deal with that took you away from work more than you would have liked, but you don’t anticipate that being a problem int he future (if thats true).

    3. HR Recruiter*

      That’s a tough one. Normally I’d say leave personal information out of it. But since its an internal interview they may already have an idea that you had some personal issues. If they bring up the subject it may be appropriate to say that you had health and family issues that impacted your work but those are no longer factors and you have learned to work through difficulties.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure how quality specialist would be hinged on productivity levels. But, okay. It’s clear that you know many aspects of production. Your boss must have been satisfied with your numbers because you are still there and you are given the tougher jobs. They do not give tough jobs to slackers.

      Can you do the basic tasks at a reasonable speed? I am thinking the tasks that an entry level person would have to learn or do in your department. If you had to train someone to get their speed up, could you offer pointers that would help? You must be aware of the common pitfalls that come from working too fast. So as a quality specialist if you see X problem with Y teapot then you know the person is working too fast and not allowing time for A or skipping step B and so on. Be sure to talk about your awareness of these pitfalls and show that you can diagnose the problem based on the work you have done. In short draw their attention to the fact that productivity levels are part of the job but not the sum total of the job.

  27. Fireye*

    Hello all!

    I am one of the lucky ones who has a great stable job with wonderful benefits working with really good people who support each other and I love going to work every day. This is the first time I’ve not actively been job searching and simply enjoying where I am. Last week, however, I stumbled over a job opportunity closer to my family in a facebook group and am considering applying. I’ve got my resume ready to go and have been mulling over writing the cover letter for a few days now. Although I love my job and where I live, the pull of returning home and being close to family has me interested in the new job.

    The new job would be a minimum 32% raise based on the stated salary (not counting negotiation opportunities) and moving would mean a 13% decrease in the cost of living. The job would be a lateral move, doing pretty much the same things I do currently, but it would be to a bigger system where there may be more opportunities to move up, though right now I’m enjoying the level I’m at and am not sure I even want to pursue management. On the other hand, even though the salary is much lower where I currently work, I earn 4.5 weeks of vacation per year with the option to roll over unused time, as well as having generous sick leave and retirement/health. I’m 2 years out of grad school so I have many, many years left before even thinking about being able to retire.

    Obviously I’m purely speculating and am not in any way assuming I will get an interview or an offer, but I’m curious to know what the AAM community thinks. Would you leave a great place for a 32% raise and the unknown? Or, would no amount of money lure you away from a very good job? What’s your personal tipping point to where you just can’t say no to the new job opportunity? Any advice on choosing to stay or go, or other things that might be worth considering?

    1. Christy*

      Definitely apply. There’s no harm in applying! A 32% raise early in your career is huge. It’s huge. And you’re under no obligation to take the job. Only take it if it sounds like a good match and the benefits/pay/work-life balance is there.

    3. Curious*

      You sounds like you’re in a fantastic place. I’m jealous, so I recommend staying. What you have is pretty rare-a great work environment doing work you love. The grass isn’t always greener.

      1. Fireye*

        Yes, grass is greener syndrome is a big worry of mine since my first job in my first career was 3 years in an awful environment with horrible and petty coworkers and bosses. I have since been very successful at choosing employment more carefully, but I’m very aware I have a great thing going.

    4. voluptuousfire*

      Go for it! A 32% raise is well worth an application based on that fact alone. Even if you don’t hear from them, you at least know you gave it a good shot and you won’t wonder about what could have been.

    5. Lucky*

      Vacation time is negotiable. If you get an offer and their standard vacation benefit is 2 weeks, it may be hard to get 4.5, but you may be able to get up to 3 or 3 1/2. YMMV, but this has never not worked for me — when I think I’m close to their salary limit in negotiations, I always ask for an extra week of vacation. I’d rather have an extra week than the extra $2-4K that we’re arguing over; time /=/ $$.

      Plus, since you’ll be closer to family, you won’t be needing those extra days for holiday travel. Avoiding the airport or freeway on Thanksgiving weekend is so worth it.

      1. Camellia*

        You know, I see this all the time here – vacation time is negotiable. Where do you all work that has negotiable vacation time? Is it mostly mom-and-pop businesses, or what?

        I’ve always worked in the corporate world and vacation is definitely NOT negotiable. It is set based on parameters such as length of service or level in the organization.

        So I’m really curious as to where it is negotiable.

        1. Ad Astra*

          The idea is that vacation doesn’t cost a company any more money. If your salary is $50K with 2 weeks of vacation, and your negotiation-savvy coworker’s salary is $50K with 4 weeks of vacation, both of you are costing the company $50K a piece. In most white-collar environments, both employees would have the same workload and the same expectations for productivity. Companies that refuse to negotiate PTO aren’t doing themselves any favors.

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          In my industry, companies try to set it based on a combination of length of service + job title. But at certain levels there’s a dearth of good candidates, so I’ve seen people negotiate an extra week successfully.

        3. Windchime*

          I was able to negotiate vacation to a certain degree*, but there were a couple of extenuating circumstances: I was recruited away from my old job, the company who recruited me was in a pickle as far as needing someone NOW, and I was bringing over 10 years experience with me. I think that if I was an unknown person coming in off the street, it would be a lot tougher to negotiate. I also suspect that the more senior you are, the more willing a company might be to negotiate.

          *They wouldn’t bring me in at quite as high a rate as I was earning in my old workplace (8 hours per pay period), but they got close and they compensated by front-loading my PTO account with 25 days to make up for the 5 years I’d be accruing at a lower rate.

          1. Anna*

            My employer did something similar. Vacation time was only negotiable for management and mid- to senior-level engineering positions. For my position, the strict limit was two weeks per year for the first 5 years, but I was already earning three weeks where I was (sinking ship) and the pay was the same. When I did not jump at the job offer and asked what was holding me back, I was honest about the total compensation being less than what I currently earned and was offered 5 weeks paid up front to make up for the vacation time I would be missing.

      2. Fireye*

        This is my current plan if it gets that far, especially considering I will already be getting a decent pay bump and the vacation time is worth it to me.

    6. Kyrielle*

      Go for it – but don’t just accept if they offer. In all cases, *you* are interviewing *them* as well as the reverse, but in this case, you know what you already have. Don’t throw it away – but do consider moving on *if* the job interviews well enough.

      That means you want them to be at least as good an environment as far as people and tasks as what you have now; you want good sick/vacation/retirement (though a little drop in sick/vacation may be acceptable, if the change in cost of living and salary is worth it to you, especially if they’d potentially let you take unpaid time and the salary/COL difference more than offsets that).

      (Good retirement benefits, such as 401k matching, early in your career can lead to a very good retirement at the end of it!)

      I’d definitely look into it. But I wouldn’t accept an offer unless everything looked really good about it, or I was able to negotiate to where it did. (And if the interviews/visits suggest the office environment isn’t as good as what you’d have, I’d be more likely to give it a miss.)

  28. Ann Furthermore*

    I’ve ranted here quite a bit about this horrible, unending project I’ve been on for the last year and a half. They went live in July, and the support has been every bit as painful as the implementation.

    I’ve also ranted about how this is the most clueless, oblivious bunch of people that I’ve ever worked with. They called me at 11:00 Tuesday night, woke me up, and told me there was an issue with an allocation process that absolutely HAD to be resolved before they submitted their numbers for the month to our parent company. So I got out of bed, fired up my laptop, logged on and was trying to figure out what was going on. Then they called me back 10 minutes later and said, “Oh, never mind, we’ll just deal with it tomorrow.”

    Are. You. Kidding. Me. Well thanks, jackholes, but now that I’m wide awake and completely pissed off, I’m going to troubleshoot your stupid issue. Which is that you did not follow the painfully detailed instructions I sent you three months ago.

    The good news is that I had a meeting with my boss on Wednesday, and based on our communications back and forth, I was about halfway convinced that I would walk out of that meeting deciding that I had to start looking for another job. I started my resume, and was perusing job websites.

    She came into the meeting and the first thing she said was, “What happened last night was completely unacceptable.” I sent her an email when that happened, and told her that this, and at least a dozen other examples like this, is what has escalated my frustration with this group to the breaking point. We had strongly disagreed about how to support these users for their month-end close, and I was overruled. And exactly what I said was going to happen, happened. I had an opportunity to talk things through with her and explain my reasoning, and she understood. And then, about our terse exchanges earlier in the week, she said, “I think we were both just testy.” That was a huge relief.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      What the fudge?

      Glad that your manager is backing you and hopefully the terse-ness has atmosphere has evaporated. What’s going to happen going forward with this group?

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Who knows? I think my boss understands now why I’m so frustrated. There’s a difference between providing support, and sitting on the phone with someone telling them what to do. I was trying to help someone through something via IM the other day, and from her questions it was clear that she wasn’t even trying to understand what she was doing, she just wanted to sit there and have me feed her every single step without having to think about it — even though the processes have been thoroughly documented in test scripts and training documents. It was the end of the day, and I had to be somewhere by 5:30, so I finally just quit responding. Then she called my manager to complain that I wasn’t “providing support.”

        I did check emails a couple times throughout the evening, and did not see any from her. When I got to the office the next morning, I looked at what the transactions she’d processed, and she had worked her way through it by herself. I have discovered with this group that if they’re forced to figure things out on their own, they can, they just don’t want to. And after I quit responding to this person’s completely inane questions, lo and behold, she figured it out on her own. So now she knows how to do it, and next month, she’ll be able to walk someone else through the process that is also documented in excruciating detail in additional training material I created. That’s what I explained to my boss.

    2. ExceptionToTheRule*

      It sucks when you can see the headlight of the oncoming train like that & get hit by it anyway because someone ties you to the tracks.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        It really does. In this situation, there are users in the California, UK, and India. Everyone struggled last month, but things really went to hell in a handbasket when the UK and India teams were not able to meet their deadlines to get things submitted to the US, and it just snowballed from there.

        So this month, I really wanted to go to the UK to work in person with the team there, and then also be more available for the India team. Since the time zones are so much closer together, I thought I’d be able to help them during more of their normal business hours, and they wouldn’t have to work through the night like they did last month. The US team had a tantrum, and said that I absolutely had to be there onsite with them. I really clashed with my boss over it, because I felt very strongly that the best chance of helping them be successful this month was to help their 2 subsidiaries. But I was overruled, and off I went back to SoCal. Where I provided remote support from a conference room down the hall, because about 80% of the time they were pinging me via IM or email instead of talking to me in person. I was so frustrated. So I told my boss that it had been unnecessarily disruptive, and that I was annoyed that I’d missed my daughter’s back-to-school night to come sit by myself in a conference room. She basically said, “Well, you were willing to go to the UK so I don’t understand what your problem is.”

        So when we talked, I reminded her that in the 7 years I’ve been working for her, I’ve never once complained about having to travel, because it’s a necessary part of the work we do (which she acknowledged was true). Plus the frequent flyer miles let me take my family on pretty nice vacations. And if it’s going to be helpful, and add value, then if I have to miss personal things here and there, well, that’s an occupational hazard that comes with the territory. I knew the UK and India teams were going to struggle, so I wanted to be there for them. Flying out there to SoCal to provide remote support from down the hall was not helpful, and did not add value, and was not worth missing an event with my daughter. And guess what, the UK and India teams struggled again because they had no support, and everything spiraled out of control again. I told her that I really didn’t want to travel anywhere this month, but I would be willing to go to the UK to work with the team there, because it’s clear they’ve been given zero guidance by their leadership and they’re just guessing about what they need to do. It is the absolute worst to be in a situation like that, and I feel bad for them because they’re in such a crappy situation. After we talked through that, she finally got what I was saying.

    1. KathyGeiss*

      I have a whole range of responses based on how egregious it is, who says it and how I’m feeling that day. Some ideas:

      -straight-faced “wow” with a walk away
      – straight-faced “please don’t say things like that to me”
      -walk away, compose myself, come back calm and explain that I found their comment offensive and would appreciate if they would refrain from using that language/sharing those views/etc with me at work
      -(when it’s a customer) remove myself from the situation or help the target of the harassment remove themselves. Have a chat with other colleagues there about how best to deal with that customer in the future.

    2. T3k*

      If’s a male making a remark about women “Oh look, it’s a male that’s stuck in the 50s. I didn’t think I’d see one of your kind outside a museum.” Specifically if they make the “women belong in the kitchen” comment, I’d go “Yep, and that’s also where the knives are…” then give a devious grin and walk off.

      If making remarks isn’t your approach, call them out on it “You know that was a sexist thing to say, right?” and if they try to say it wasn’t, tell them why it is.

      1. INFJ*

        Ugh. If I like/know the person well, I try to explain why it’s sexist. However, it’s almost never interpreted as me giving my point of view on the situation, but rather me being “sensitive.”

      2. Sweaty*

        Tell them to go back to Saudi Arabia – especially if they are white (all my coworkers are white so I use this line at work sometimes). I wouldn’t say this if the person might actually be from Saudi Arabia.

        My dad’s favorite is “women shouldn’t be allowed to drive”, and I always respond, “you should move to Saudi Arabia – you’d fit right in!” This angers him tremendously because he hates Saudi Arabia.

    3. Malissa*

      My go to is, “I’m sorry what did you say?” In a genuine tone like I didn’t really hear them. This gives them a chance to save face. If they utter the same word again I just look at them and walk away.

    5. AnonAcademic*

      If someone is more clueless than malicious I’ve found laughing at them like they said something funny throws them off. “Hahahaha, women should be in the kitchen – good one Gus!” Works well with elderly men who think they’re being paternalistic when they’re actually being sexist.

    6. A*

      Call them out. “That is a sexist remark, and is inappropriate. I cannot control what you say or do outside of work but I expect that you can conduct yourself as a professional while you’re here. Professionalism is not sexism.” Repeat it every time and if it continues more than a couple of times, escalate. Zero tolerance.

    7. AcidMeFlux*

      Stare blankly at the offender, and repeat the comment in a monotone. “Women are too emotional for X kind of work”. Stare silently at them for a moment. Repeat “Women are….”. Shake head. Walk away, shaking head and repeating “Women are…”. You haven’t engaged in confrontation, but it still freaks them out.

    8. Lord Baltimore*

      As an observer: “Dude. Line. Crossing it.”

      As the target: “Huh? I don’t get it,” or, “Say that to may face again and I’ll rip yours off,” depending on the office culture.

    9. Wanna-Alp*

      Sometimes I deal with a “Hello, young [my first name]!” (a greeting that none of the men in the office get), with the response “Hello, old [greeter’s first name]!” Often it gets a chuckle from one of the other men in the office.

  30. Gene*

    I’ve been thinking about mandatory Public Service for two years after highschool. Military/AmeriCorps/Peace Corps/Something akin to the WPA/Whatever. No deferments other than severe mental deficiency – there’s something out there that everyone could do.

    Ignoring the good/bad of that idea, what I’m interested in here is your views on how this would affect the business world. Once it is imposed, there would be a two year time period where there would be no new HS grads available, there would be a two year gap in university enrollments. The “new” employee cadre would actually have some real-life experience prior to entering the work world.

    Thoughts?

    1. The IT Manager*

      People who hire high school grads probably have limited impact because they can hire people who graduated two years ago.

      The universities whose main customers are the recent high school grads (not all but mostly) would lose most of their income for two years and have to layoff instructors and I’m not sure that they could recover. And it would never be implemented because of this impact.

    2. Technical Editor*

      I cans see elite schools making a one-year service assignment a requirement for admission, thereby making it compulsory for only the most motivated students. Who knows, maybe it would have a ripple effect?

    3. Kat M2*

      It would have to depend on the program, for sure. Peace Corps actually isn’t something most recent high school grads can do-most positions require a four year degree or five years work experience (the latter in a trade or technical field). They go by what the countries want-a lot of them want people who have an education background or a health background, as well as a few engineers, plumbers, farmers, etc. I point this out because it’s not as well understood and, as an applicant myself (and former AmeriCorps member), I constantly have to correct a lot of my relatives.

      That said, I think it would be a great complement to a diploma and I think, even during the two year transition program, companies would find themselves hiring more experienced people and those positions would probably pay more.

    4. Chriama*

      Mandatorily enforced by whom, the government? Not every 18 year old has a reliable family situation, so it would have to pay well enough that someone supporting their household would choose this over other entry level work. Honestly, it wouldn’t affect the business world all that much. Other countries have education programs which incorporate real-world work experience (e.g. Germany), and I think that’s a better idea than mandatory public service — honestly, the biggest impact would be a bunch of PO’d govt. employees trying to deal with a bunch of snot-nosed interns who are just killing time and collecting a paycheque.

    5. OriginalEmma*

      In the US, we haven’t even gotten around to the concept of a “gap year.” I’d like that before any mandatory public service.

      Can we add mandatory part-time retail and food service employment to that as well? We’d be a whole lot more patient, understanding and charitable if we all understood how tough it is to work those jobs.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Which work world are they entering? If it’s the work world of building dams/bridges/roads then, okay, the WPA is relevant. Same thought with others.
      But let’s not put reluctant interns next to a soldier who is fighting for his life. Matter of fact, let’s not put them anywhere that lives are at stake.

      What is the goal to teach business skills or to just teach a general work ethic? I don’t think building a road is going to teach folks about business. Unless the intern went to a tangent arena, the experience is probably not that meaningful to an average business person.

      I think that you would find that the list of exclusions will have to go well beyond the mental deficiency exclusion you mention here. Additionally, if you channel a bunch of people into a place they do not want to be, the results can be a disaster.

      Okay, picture you are the foreman of a road crew. You are repaving a road. You have 15 people working for you. They don’t want to be there. They know that they have to be there for the next two years. How will you motivate them to do a good job everyday? How do you assign tasks? Who gets to drive the Big Rigs? How will you get them trained to do the work?

      I get the general drift of your idea. I felt that high school* was totally irrelevant as preparation for the work world. And college, although much more interesting, was about as irrelevant.
      Another problem I see is that some people do not fair well in our school system. They actually need hands on involvement. This could mean car repair, computer programming, space technology, heck it could mean almost anything. These are people that cannot sit in a classroom day after day. If forced to sit there they will fail, it’s 100% certainty.
      My father got Cs and Ds mostly through high school. He went on to get 50 patents. It’s not that he was stupid or lazy, it’s that he had no connection to the material presented in high school. I have seen this happen with quite a few people.

      *High school. Dear friend was a high school teacher. Put her in a class room and she was on top of her game. She retired and went to work doing retail. She was absolutely appalled by what she saw and what she learned. Her conclusion was “our schools do nothing to prepare students for the world of work.”

      Long answer made very short: I think it would delay the same problem by two years.

    7. Anx*

      I don’t think they would have the experience employers are looking for, though. I don’t think most young people are devoid of skills, but that too MUCH of their experience is volunteer work or internship or fellowship or military experience, etc.

    8. GreatLakesGal*

      My understanding is that Israel deals with this just fine: there is mandatory military service after high school, followed by University or work.

      Any Israeli readers out there to comment further?

      1. Observer*

        Well, there are a lot of deferments other than severe mental deficiency. On the other hand, these kids come out of the army (or national service) with some “soft” skills that are relevant to any work situation – most importantly, that you don’t get to do only what you like or want to do.

        The thing is that these are not a bunch on “snot nosed volunteers and interns” but soldiers like all the rest of the soldiers in the army. And they are fighting for their lives, or not, just like any of the other soldiers in the army. (Not all soldiers are in combat or combat support positions.)

        I’m not Israeli, but I have family in Israel, and many friends and acquaintances from Israel.

  31. T3k*

    Not directly a work update, but I got the fee waived to take a Javascript class this month to help me get one step closer to a better job.

    And yesterday I almost wanted to flat out quit because things were so disorganized, it felt like nothing was getting done and it was like “Do this, and this, and this and this… why haven’t you finished the last task yet?!” Well, if I didn’t have to chase them down for every task to clarify things on it, I’d finish a lot quicker! Imagine that…

  32. KathyGeiss*

    I’m curious on others opinions on this potential opportunity. A woman I work with will be taking a year mat leave (I’m in Canada, this is normal) and I’d like to “try out” her job. This is pretty normal here too. I’m not interested in her job for a long time but having that experience for a year would help me do my job better. It’s a pretty unique opportunity as there is no one else in her role that will be likely to take leave anytime soon.

    But! There are lots of rumours flying that our competitor wants to buy us out (read: lots of articles on Bloomberg in the news and open talks of hostile take overs). I’m a bit nervous about potentially being in a “temporary” position if a buy out was to happen.

    I know I can’t predict what will happen but is this a reasonable concern?

    1. NacSacJack*

      Its a concern, but not one in your control. Companies merge and break up at a moment’s notice. What you need to do is remind yourself, it’s not in my control, therefore it’s not worth losing sleep. With that being said, you will turn and churn on it, just try to keep it down. As for the mat leave opportunity, I say GO FOR IT!! I’d love a change to try out a job. It shows you’re willing to change and try new challenges. If nothing else, it shows you that you can try out new opportunities.

    2. TheLazyB (UK)*

      In the UK your substantive post might be filled temporarily but it would yours to go back to if something went wrong. Is that not the case in Canada?

      1. Jasmine*

        It is, but it sounds like the original poster knows that, and just wants to try it out for the time of the leave.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You could get bumped out if you stay at your current position, also. I think that levels the playing field between the two jobs.
      I think you should go for it. Check it out, see if you can get some type of assurances that if there is a buy out or if the lady comes back they will get you into a different slot.

  33. TheExchequer*

    Happy Friday and three day weekend for me!

    Yesterday marked my first month at my new job! I still feel overwhelmed and sometimes incompetent – but I get paid on time and I’m starting to do better work.

    One of the things I didn’t realize that I would like so much about my job is that it is in the middle of a food mecca. Old job had a 30 minute lunch and was only close to a slow and mediocre Thai place and a Jack in the Box if you didn’t mind spending your entire break getting there and back. New job has an hour lunch break and more food options than you can shake a stick at: Mexican, pizza, Chinese, fast food, delis. I almost always bring a lunch and still end up saying screw it on some days. I think I need to plan a bit more money for lunch out and a little less for groceries, but it can be a tough thing to plan!

    1. W.*

      Food is so important as is space! Last job was rural hell and there was no where to get away from work, or tune out. Def know the difference it makes.

    2. Nikki T*

      I usually just treat myself to lunch on Fridays. It usually helps incentivize me to bring my lunch because on Friday I get to have X. I’ve burned through a lot of money on takeout and finally got a handle on it this year.

      I’m glad for you, it’s great to have a *nice* lunch hour, even just to take a walk and/or people watch.

      1. Ad Astra*

        That’s a great idea and I’m going to try it next week! I’m usually pretty good about bringing my lunch but as the week goes on I start feeling deprived (first world problem for sure) or I don’t have time to pack a lunch (because I hit snooze 30 times). This might keep me in line.

        IME, it also helps to bring lunches you really want to eat. Lately, I’ve tried some new dinner recipes that turned out to be a hit, and bringing those leftovers for lunch is so much more exciting than my cold, flaccid turkey sandwich.

        1. Blue_eyes*

          Having a lunch to look forward to can make all the difference! At OldJob I used to allow myself to get breakfast at Starbucks (well, actually it was Caribou) OR order Jimmy Johns for lunch (it was the only place nearby that delivered) once each week. If it was a bad week, sometimes it was Starbucks AND Jimmy Johns. I also brought a frozen meal (like Lean Cuisine) once a week. Suddenly only having to think about lunches 3 days a week made it much more doable and I didn’t get tired of sandwiches and leftovers.

        2. Nanc*

          Train yourself to pack your lunch the night before! I usually make mine while I’m making dinner and then I just have to grab the bag out of the fridge.

    3. RoseRed*

      I love the super-rural area where I live now, but I miss living in the city for the food! Just down the street from OldOldJob, there was an amazing Indian buffet, a taco place with $1 Taco Tuesdays, a coffee shop, and a million other quick, easily-accessible places within a couple blocks. It was amazing.

      Now I have a 30-minute working lunch, and only a handful of places that offer delivery. At least it encourages me to cook more!

  34. Hlyssande*

    My team is trying to implement monthly lunch outings (rotating restaurants by vote, we pay for ourselves, etc). Today only two of us can make it, and I’m regretting saying yes to still going because the other one is the coworker I dislike the most (he has a history of getting away with saying some pretty awful stuff). But I already agreed to it, so…Yep. I’ve never been to the place, but I’ve heard good things.

    Wish me luck!

    2. Hlyssande*

      It went better than expected, hurray! The food was pretty good, and we kept conversation to pretty safe topics.

  35. Michelle in Ontario*

    Hello there,

    I am looking for any advice I can get about a situation that happened to me an hour ago. A company that has been in my top 5 targets for years finally called me today to arrange an interview. However, the date that the HR rep gave me will be impossible as I will by on a 14 hour flight that day. When I said that I would not be available on that day but I would be happy to interview on any other day I was told: “Sorry, this is the only day we will be conducting interviews for this position.”

    The rep said that she would be in touch with me if the HR dept. decided to add additional interview days. I’m pretty disappointed at the moment. Is there any way that I can salvage this?

    Thanks in advance for your words of wisdom.

    2. E*

      They are being extremely inflexible on this. I’d suggest just a brief email follow up that you appreciate the consideration for the position, would love to be considered if their schedule for interviews opens up beyond the one day that you aren’t available at all due to being on a plane, and let it go from there. Not much you can change.

      1. Michelle in Ontario*

        Thanks, I am going to try this. I looked up the young woman who called me on Linked In and see that she is an HR student with one month of experience on the job. It’s likely that she is following her script to the letter and isn’t prepared to handle scheduling conflicts.

        It’s just very bizarre to me. I’ve actually had two other occasions where organizations were happy to conduct interviews with me remotely due to scheduling conflicts.

        1. Artemesia*

          I don’t know how high level a position this is but I remember when my son who is a hot prospect in his field was interviewing and a company he had some interest in called and the contact invited him to a ‘job event’ (or some euphemism like that ) He responded ‘job fair’? I am not interested in that. He was pretty offended by their expectation that he would go through a process designed pretty much for high school grads and similar entry level types when he was already a high flyer in a highly skilled and competitive industry. It totally turned him off on the company so that when someone called an hour later to want to fly him in for interviews, he declined.

          I note this because you may have an inexperienced HR person (as surely the one who called my son was) who doesn’t understand the important of the position she is filling and the rarity of great candidates like you. It would be good if you could get word to the organization that you will be on a 14 hour flight that day but would be interested in interviewing another day.

  36. Hoping I'm not recognised*

    This is rather long-sorry!

    I’m in the UK. I sort of line manage a number of people; because of restructures my position and theirs has not been clear but is getting clearer. I can’t make the decision to hire/fire someone without approval but I will be managing more (still a bit unclear what that means but setting targets/ carrying out performance reviews/approving leave). I also create the rota for freelancers and oversee their work.

    One member of staff has three roles; one I will be managing directly, one of the freelance roles and another role where who the manager is, is unclear; this make her employment messy. There is a reluctance to deal with because it is complicated but it is looking like some steps will be taken towards resolving it (there is a meeting with HR next week).

    The lack of clarity over whether I do manage her has contributed to her viewing me as incompetent and to my lack of confidence in dealing with her and others. Added to this, I started as a volunteer so there is some role reversal going on about who is in charge. We work at a ‘secondary’ site, so no one has really been overseeing here, and we’re in at different times. I am at least 10 years younger than everyone else who works at my site and am over 40 years younger than the person I have particular problems with, which matters to them. I have been working on modernisations and changes that are unpopular.

    It has been suggested by other staff that the messiness has led to her claiming more hours than she’s worked and potentially claiming for two of her roles at the same time. I have no firm proof of this being ongoing, just a few recent examples. Without proof (that I can’t get myself) I think any examples I have will be brushed off as a ‘one off’ or an ‘understandable mistake’.

    I’m also suspicious as she is generally secretive and doesn’t want anything she does brought to people’s attention in case it means they make changes. She won’t tell me when she’s coming in (I’ve asked her to she has refused) and I’ve only recently achieved getting her to give her freelance role invoices to me, as everyone else does.

    She has said to me directly that she does not want me interfering with her roles (when I have questioned or said I will check on something; even when I’m saying I will follow up on something she has complained about) but my manager wants my input.

    I have previous experience of her reaction to other people who she has felt were a ‘threat’ to her and I am actually scared by what her response is going to be to me when changes happen; it will be seen by her as my doing. Her response previously has been subtle but nasty and contributed towards other people leaving. Management has put this down to personality clashes and said that they can’t and won’t get involved in cases like that.

    What I’d like advice on is if I should say anything about claiming for hours she hasn’t done or double claims? Should I pre-empt any backlash from her about changes by voicing my concerns? And how on earth can I get out of this with a professional reputation and respect of other people I work with? With hindsight I could have handled things better earlier but I am/was inexperienced. I’m at a point where I just don’t like her and feel that however impartial and rational I try to be that might be clouding my judgement.

    1. fposte*

      I think the problem lies above you. This place sounds pretty screwed up–you don’t know if you’re actually managing people, nobody knows how many hours this employee actually works, etc.

      If so, you can’t fix that. What you might be able to do is go to your manager and say “There’s been some question about Lavinia’s hours. Since she’s never had an official manager, they’re not getting tracked. I wanted to alert you in case you wanted to take action–and also to request that if you’d like me to handle it, we three meet together and make it clear to Lavinia that I’ve officially become her manager.” In general, people in this kind of place are often reluctant to embrace structure, so I’m not surprised you’re having pushback; however, they’re sometimes okay with charge being taken as long as they’re not the ones to take charge. So I suspect that the only way for there to be a clearer responsibility for Lavinia is for you to ask for it and then to use it.

      I think there are people here with more experience than me on the actual hours-claims areas. My inclination, however, is to clarify with her going forward on what’s acceptable and consider any extra pay to be the company’s penalty for being ditzy.

        1. Hoping I'm not recognised*

          Thank you for the reply, that’s sort of what I was thinking, look for clarity going forward and leave any issues of pay going back alone, just wanted an outside opinion that I wasn’t entirely off base!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I hope I can say this right- use less words when you talk to your bosses. I know you had to give us the idea of all the messiness going on. But when you talk about this person here with your bosses keep it short and get to the punchline fast.

      If you do become her boss, let your boss know that she has driven people out of the company. Let your boss know that you will be documenting starting immediately. Go over the procedure for dismissal. Read up on work place bullies. She may or may not be a bully, but the reading will help you to put what you see into words and accurately describe the undesirable behaviors that you are seeing. You’ll, also, want to cover the things that you know are a problem now- such as when she will be into work. Your boss should tell her that she needs to let you know what her plans are.

  37. Rye-Ann*

    Hi all! Another question this week. Some background: the HR person from a company called me toward the end of July. Originally, it was to schedule an interview, but when she found out that I was moving soon (within the next month or so), we decided to reconnect after I moved. I assumed this meant I was to call her, since I didn’t have an exact date at the time so there was no way for her to know when it would be a good time for me to talk. I ended up moving on the 10th, which is earlier than expected. I think it was later that week that I first called her back, leaving a message. I didn’t hear from her, so I called a few more times, mostly without leaving a message except for the last time that I called, which was this Monday. So it’s been like 3 weeks since I first called her (leaving a total of 2 messages, one at each end of that time frame basically), and I still haven’t heard back.

    My question is: is there anything else I can do besides wait? Someone else suggested to me that I try calling the general company phone number (as opposed to the number she gave me, which seems to be the number for her desk phone) to try and find out what’s going on – whether she’s on vacation, or whether they decided not to interview me after all. I don’t want to be too pushy though, and I fear I may have already gone too far.

    2. fposte*

      I think you should drop her an email, if you haven’t, but otherwise leave her alone. And definitely don’t call without leaving a message any more.

  38. AnonyMs.*

    I started working for a small company (about 40 employees) less than a year ago. During the interview process, my boss– who is very senior in the company– told me that while the company didn’t offer health insurance, it was on their agenda for 2015 and very important to him. It’s important to me too! I am a strong advocate for preventive care, annual physicals, skin screenings, flu shots, etc. I accepted the job because everything else about it was great, and I’m paid enough that I can afford a very good Marketplace plan (Silver, but still pretty good, though it’s not nearly as good as the health insurance I had at other jobs).

    A few months ago, the CEO announced that they were looking into a company health plan. Great! It was presented to us this week. It is… terrible, frankly. The premiums are very high– the Bronze plan is almost $100 more/month than my plan– the network is limited, and it was just disappointing. Even worse? No employer contribution. I walked away from this meeting feeling almost insulted, but I have a good plan that I can afford and, well, whatever. I also left the meeting reminded that the pay cut I took to come here is even greater than it seemed at first, since my last employer paid 100% of our health insurance premiums (yes– totally rare and a great benefit, though I hated that job).

    However… I think this is a problem with bringing on new employees. I was one of the first people hired who is too old to be covered under a parent’s insurance plan, and I was one of the first people hired over 26 who is also single– no spouse’s company insurance to fall back on. Again, I’m paid well enough to pay for a Marketplace plan, but this is my first job that doesn’t offer excellent health insurance with an employer contribution. We’re trying to grow, and I just think we’re shooting ourselves in the foot by limiting our benefits.

    My question is: how much of a dealbreaker is it when a company doesn’t offer insurance? Or when they have a plan but it’s 100% employee contribution? I actually think the latter is worse than the former, just in terms of how it was presented to us (“look at how great we are to offer this crappy plan, huzzah!”), but I’m curious as to what other people think.

    1. Kristine*

      I agree with you, I would rather have no plan than a plan that was 100% employee contribution. I have worked for a company before that offered no health insurance, but they offered other perks to make up for it (flexible hours, free food, etc). If I have to pay for my health care coverage myself then I don’t want to be limited to a few crappy employer-chosen options.

      1. Judy*

        Especially since many plans have provisions that you can’t cover your spouse if they are offered insurance through work. I’d be upset if I could have been on my husband’s plan, but now can’t because they offered something at my work, yet I have to pay all of the costs.

        1. Artemesia*

          Wow that sucks. At one point the cost of insurance for my husband at his firm was 20K and I could move him to my insurance for about $85 a month — so he dropped his insurance and we added him to mine. He was able to recoup part of that 20K as salary (it was a partnership) It would be dreadful to be forced to take a company health plan that was this bad.

    2. Gillian*

      My old job had great insurance for if you were just you – the 100% employee coverage. But they didn’t contribute anything if you had dependents that needed coverage, and the premiums were very high. It was a religious school, as well, so it kept touting itself as family-friendly, when in reality they’d lose good teachers to the public school district every year who couldn’t afford to pay more than half of their paycheck to have insurance for their kids.

      I’ve had serious health problems in my medical history and having good insurance options was a huge (probably the #1) factor when I was job-hunting last year. I turned down my first job offer because they only offered health insurance after your probationary period of 6 months was over, and I didn’t want to have to pay COBRA for the interim.

    3. the gold digger*

      It is a total dealbreaker. I would not even waste time interviewing at a company that did not offer insurance.

      And if they don’t contribute anything to the premium, they are not offering insurance. They are giving you an application somewhere.

      1. L*

        +1. I’ve declined positions that had really crappy insurance attached to them as well.

        Health insurance is usually the second largest portion of your overall compensation. If a company doesn’t offer health insurance, they need to make that up in a BIG way.

    4. Ad Astra*

      My husband is a government employee with great insurance (100% paid for him, and it was 100% paid for me when I was unemployed, but now it’s like $100/month with very reasonable copays), so it wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me right now.

      If I didn’t have access to such a great plan through my spouse, the insurance thing would be an absolute dealbreaker for me. What is the advantage to having a company-offered plan if it’s 100% employee paid? I would think most employees would rather just go through the Marketplace, but maybe I’m missing some benefit to going through the employer?

      If you’re competing with larger companies for talented hires, offering no insurance or crummy insurance is going to hurt you.

      1. AnonyMs.*

        That’s exactly what I think. Especially your second paragraph– what’s the advantage? I don’t see one, except having an agent to do legwork and walk you through the process. I think it’s sad that our employees who are about to turn 27 will look at this and think it’s their only or best option. I can’t say anything to them– it would be bad politically– but part of me wants to call all of them and beg them to research their options first. Those that do come to me for advice (office therapist, right here)? I will say exactly that.

      2. Anonymous Fish*

        If I remember correctly, the advantage is that you can buy it with your pre-tax dollars, rather than post-tax dollars. That’s better than a sharp stick in the eye, at least.

    5. AMT*

      That is so terrible, I don’t know what companies are thinking sometimes. My husband has had to turn down jobs because of the lack of insurance (for years he was uninsurable and any HIPPA-plan we could continue on cost as much as his salary!) – I really really hate our insurance system in the US, it is completely horrible. For me insurance has always been a major component of considering accepting a job – unless my pay is doubled I probably wouldn’t consider a job without insurance (and employer contributions!)

    6. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      You know, this makes me wonder about discrimination issues. I am not a lawyer, or an HR person, but my understanding is discrimination doesn’t have to be intentional to be illegal. That is, if your business policies or practices result in an all-under 40 workforce, that could be illegal. I wonder whether we’ll see some case law about that as the health care economy evolves.

    7. same situation*

      Is there room for flexibility to WFH at all at the company? I’ve stayed with a company longer than I should have because there was so much flexibility in when I could come in and with working from home..only had partially paid premiums, no PTO or paid holidays and low pay.

      Eventually I took another job because I really needed benefits and higher pay, and I lucked out, got $5/hour more, I got premiums covered 100%, 3 weeks PTO and 10 paid holidays……but no flexibility in times to be at work and only on the rare occasion could I work from home. I was so much happier happier at my first job, this one burned me out and I gained 10 pounds while I was there.

      Unfortunately, I recently got laid off and finally found a new job..luckily it only took a month and I got another raise along with it, $8/hour more! I knew insurance wouldn’t be provided as I found that out during the interview and I heard previous people had left for jobs with insurance. However, I really can’t afford to be unemployed and with a 44% raise in salary, I figure I won’t mind paying for insurance. I didn’t think about how I won’t have dental insurance though (which I wish I took advantage of) and did not account for no paid holidays/sick days/PTO which brings the value of my salary down a lot.

      I’ve already accepted the offer and I am so annoyed at myself for not negotiating a higher hourly rate to help make up for the days I won’t have work. The only thing that’s keeping me from rescinding is 1) I need to find something ASAP and 2) This place is SUPER close to my house, I don’t have to get on any main roads to get there and 3) It seems that I will have a lot of flexibility in when I put my hours in and I won’t have to spend my whole day working there everyday, and flexibility is something I REALLY miss so I honestly think to me, it’s worth it for now (and hopefully I can handle it for 2-3 years since I got laid off after 10 months and really don’t want to job hop).

      Sorry I started rambling on but basically, offer some other type of incentive (flexible start times, WFH) that could provide a better work-life balance, if people value that more, they may not mind the premiums as much.

    8. NDQ*

      Healthcare is a big deal. I have a great government employer plan. I pay a portion and opted for the cheaper high deductible plan so that I could fund an HSA rather than the FSA.

      I think hiring great people will be tough for your company.

      NDQ

    9. BRR*

      As others have said, dealbreaker unless I had spousal coverage or your employer offered something. Higher salary, tons of PTO, flexible work schedule and telecommuting, shorter work week.

    10. Anx*

      I think it’s better to have no plan because then you don’t have to worry about wonky calculations. If your employer offers you an affordable option (I think premiums under 9% of your income) you won’t qualify for a subsidy.

      I sometimes wish my employer gave me a pay cut and paid for my insurance. My income is too low to depend on ACA subsidies (I got some for part of this year, but I’m losing it). I’ve never had employer based insurance or been on my parent’s as an adult (that only benefits young adults whose parents have group insurance)

  39. HigherEd Frustration*

    Hi guys,

    I just had an interview where they asked me about salary expectations. I mentioned that I looked at the guide, but ended up giving them a number 2-4k dollars less than the salary guide for the position. Should I mention my mistake in the thank you email? Or just let it go, as I would be happy with the starting salary that was mentioned in the guide? This is for a University position, so it seems like the salaries are pretty much within the given range. I was nervous and not prepared, and now my anxiety is making me unsure of the correct course of action. Any advice would be great!

    1. fposte*

      I would wait until they come back with an offer. If the offer is guide range, then hurrah, end of problem. If the offer is what you stated as an expectation and you want guide range, you operate delicately. “Thanks, I’m excited! I did want to ask about something, though–during the interview discussion, I now realize underestimated the usual range for this position, and I wanted to see if there was room to move to $X.”

  40. Slimy Contractor*

    What are the tired, unfunny office “jokes” you wish would die forever? Here are my top three:
    1. “This must be the local,” when the elevator makes a lot of stops.
    2. “We’re on the same schedule!” when you see the same person in the bathroom more than once in a day.
    3. “Shall we dance?” when you unsuccessfully try to pass a coworker in the hallway.

    Can we just stop with these? Please? ARRRRRGGHHH.

    1. Christy*

      Hah, I love the first two. I almost wish I had occasion to use the elevator so I could use the first line. I also like stuff like “Happy Friday” though.

      I do think there’s nothing to be done other than getting over the dislike. There’s some things that will never change.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        On no! I do the “express” vs. “local” joke! (Which I’m not sure everyone gets, because we don’t have commuter rail where I live, but I grew up somewhere that did.) However, I only do it as a response to a comment when I think it’s a joke the other person will appreciate. In fact, I think I’m the only one who makes the joke where I work.

        I’ve never said #2, but I have done the “We have to stop meeting like this!” when it’s someone who I see in the same place at the same time more than twice in a row. (Once again, know your audience.)

        1. Slimy Contractor*

          Oh, yes, “We have to stop meeting like this!” I haven’t heard this one in awhile, but it’s definitely on my list. :)

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      OMG, “This must be the local”– haaaaaaaate. Hate it. With a passion. I used to work on the 45th floor of a building, so of COURSE the elevator would stop a lot at the end of the day. Was it annoying? Yup. Was that joke tired? YUP.

      My current workplace has excellent office jokes that I hope stay forever, like saying “Awesome!” a la Cecily Strong as The Girl You Don’t Want to Talk to At a Party and “I need to focus” with the vowels in “focus” transposed. We are a small and mercifully like-minded group.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I work on the fourth floor of a building with slooow elevators. The worst is when the door is closing, someone presses the call button to open it, then hits 2 and say something like, “I’m going to make you late! [giggle]” Yes, that’s very funny. Especially when they then hold the door open for someone who’s going to 3. Then I wonder if a walk up the unventilated stairs in high heels is really such a bad thing after all…

        (For the record, I understand that not everyone can take the stairs, but I have a hard time believing that the number of people who take the elevator to the second floor where I work couldn’t just take the stairs. I would, but I’m usually either carrying something or know that I’m going to be breathing heavily before my floor…)

        1. Slimy Contractor*

          Our elevator also has that “feature” where if you’re being “nice” by holding the door for someone, it ends up buzzing loudly at you, telling you to get out of the doors, and taking forever to close up and stop moving. We have six elevators–just wait for the next one, it’ll only be 20 seconds!

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Oh crap, ours does that too. It’s like it’s mad at you for holding it open. We joke about that and about how we hope it’s not so mad it stops between floors!

        2. Delyssia*

          I used to work on the second floor of a building with 10ish stories. I felt very bad every time I got on the elevator full of people and had to get off on the very next floor. But from inside the stairwell, the doors only opened onto the first floor (they were locked from inside the stairwell for all other floors–I don’t think I’m explaining that well). So you couldn’t actually take the stairs to the second floor. I don’t know if this is a local thing, but it seems to be surprisingly common for buildings to have stairwells as out only or emergency access only.

          The thing is, I never knew if people on higher floors knew that you couldn’t take the stairs up in the building, so I’d want to explain, but I also didn’t want to be That Person, so I’d bite back the urge to explain… The whole thing just drove me batty.

          1. Charlotte Collins*

            Since my building is only tenanted by people who work for the same company, we all know that you can get in or out on the 2nd floor. But I have seen that setup before when I’ve had to go to appointments, and it drives me batty! Also, why do so many buildings “hide” the stairs? If I only need to go up or down one floor, I’d much rather use stairs than an elevator.

      1. Slimy Contractor*

        Oh no! I’ve done that when I can’t find a price tag on something. You’re right, I bet retail employees hear that ALL the time. I’ll try to cut down on that one.

      2. Nanc*

        I always say “sorry for picking the only one that won’t scan!” and now I’ll just say it to myself!

    4. Ad Astra*

      I’ve never heard the first one, but I live in an area with almost zero public transit, so maybe that’s why. All three of these are less bothersome to me than “Happy Monday!” or even “Happy Friday!” For some reason, talking about each day as if it were some kind of holiday or anniversary really grinds my gears, even though it’s totally harmless.

      1. Gillian*

        We have someone who uses the variation on “Happy Friday” of “Hey, did you know it’s Friday?” Like no one in the office realizes what day it is? They mean well, but… I don’t need to get asked that question every week.

      2. Slimy Contractor*

        Interesting–“Happy Monday” and “Happy Friday” don’t actually bother me, and I get annoyed by EVERYTHING. ;)

    5. fposte*

      I kind of love repeat jokes. They’re like that favorite pair of jeans that are all broken in and soft and comfy.

      2. Slimy Contractor*

        Is that the same reason people quote lines from movies all the time? I’ve always worked with some people who think it is the HEIGHT of wit to repeat something from a movie or a TV commercial. I always think, “I know you didn’t write that joke. Why are you acting like you’re so smart for saying it?”

        2. TheLazyB (UK)*

          I quote stuff all the time. It’s no fun when people don’t get the reference! What fposte says.

    6. Tagg*

      A little morbid, but I can’t stand when I tell a patient that we’ll see them in a year/six months/two weeks for a follow up and they say “If I’m still alive then!”

      *chirping crickets*

      1. Slimy Contractor*

        Oh, that kinda sounds like something I would say, too. I’m not sure I’d say it to a doctor’s office, though–maybe just family and friends.

      2. Ad Astra*

        Tuesday is actually the worst day of the week because that’s when the exhaustion from Monday finally catches up with you. Wake up, sheeple!

      3. bridget*

        Ha – I started to develop a very similar reaction to the running joke here (which seems to have subsided somewhat) that anytime there was a post even slightly out-of-the-ordinary, there would be a shower of “it’s not even Wednesday yet!” or “it must be Wednesday!” or “wait what, Wednesday is over!”

    8. Maureen*

      The one that drives me crazy:

      When doing a group interview, referring to the candidate’s place at the table as, “the hot seat”. I know I’m being irrational in my annoyance, but it’s just so cliche.

    9. DebbieDebbieDebbie*

      Healthcare provider here and I have two:
      1) When I evaluate a patient first thing in the morning and ask how they are feeling: “With my fingers!” ugh
      2) The greeter dude on the footbridge into the hospital who could be the product spokesman for Red Bull who declares every Thursday as “Friday Eve!!!!!!” woo-hoo

      1. Slimy Contractor*

        OMG, those are both TERRIBLE. And this is the first time I’ve heard either one of them, so I haven’t even had the opportunity to get sick of the repetition yet.

        I think the one I do at the doctor’s office all the time is when they ask me, “How are you?” I always say, “I’ve been better,” because, like, I’m obviously not “fine,” I’m at the freakin’ doctor’s office! :) I bet healthcare professionals hear that all the time, too.

      2. RoseRed*

        This is just a personal weirdness for me, but I think pleasantries at Urgent Care are hilarious. “How are you?” Um….not good, otherwise I wouldn’t be here? I can’t tell whether to respond with the usual “fine, thanks” when I’m clearly keeling over from strep throat or something, or be like “honestly, not so great” when they probably already know that. :-P

    11. Big Tom*

      We have a printer that actually says “PC Load Letter” when it’s out of paper. My colleague says the line Every. Single. Time. he refills the tray. It hasn’t been funny for 12 years.

  41. anonanonanonanon*

    I wrote in a couple of weeks ago about when to follow up with a company about their timelines. I followed advice and waited an extra week before I asked, and they told me they would contact me early this week. Friday and still nothing. I’m kind of in a situation where I am definitely leaving my job (and would love to do so as soon as possible) and at a minimum will be doing some consulting work, if I can’t get this fulltime position at the company I’ve interviewed with. Given that my situation isn’t really a competing job offer, but a situation that would take some time and paperwork to set up to be a consultant, how (and when) should I go back to the company and say I need an answer?

    1. fposte*

      In general, I wouldn’t say “I need an answer by x date” unless I genuinely wouldn’t accept a good offer from them after that–it’s informing them about your window, not moving them along. So is there a time when you’d turn down their offer because it was too late, even if it was acceptable pay? Then put a week or so before that.

  42. DMouse*

    Wow, things are so much better in the office now that my boss’s boss resigned! “Dan” complanined when the office was messy, but also when I put things away to clean it. Dan had me work on a project assigned to him by HIS boss, got mad at me (in front of other people) that I didn’t do it correctly, then his boss (who is very high up in the company) called me directly and turned out that Dan had completely misunderstood what we were doing. The time wasted on he back-and-forth led to other delays on other projects. One time Dan came to me in a panic that my boss wasn’t in yet because he HAD TO TALK TO HER. When she called me with her ETA, I went in to update him and he looked at me like I was crazy and said, why was I telling him something he didn’t need to know. Another time, he packed up a box in his office and told me to handle shipping it, and that I should get a guy to help lift it. Then when I did, he told me I “made him look stupid” because the guy would wonder why Dan didn’t help me himself. Yay, no more dealing with the craziness!!!

  43. Mockingjay*

    Meeting Minutes Saga!

    Big meeting yesterday. Admin Assistant did two (tiny) things for it.

    Day before, meeting prep.
    – Logistics Manager prints and binds brochures.
    – Intrepid Tech Writer Colleague proofs the PowerPoints.
    – I review the agenda and check with Senior Engineer on the final guest list.
    – Logistics Manager prepares visitor badges for guests.
    – Logistics Manager sets up table for coffee and snacks.
    – Admin Assistant does nothing.

    Day of meeting:
    – Logistics Manager arrives early, having picked up donuts and bagels for guests on the way. He greets visitors and issues badges.
    – Admin Assistant sends around a meeting sign-in sheet.
    – Admin Assistant takes lunch orders and calls in order to local deli.
    – I take minutes all day, during briefs in conference room and during demos on the engineering floor. In the middle of the morning brief, Admin Assistant gets hungry, so she just gets up and wanders out to get a bagel and juice.

    Lunch is delivered. She picks hers up and walks back to her office. One of the engineers has to distribute the meals to the guests. Meanwhile, the Logistics Manager is making coffee and refilling the drinks bucket with beverages and ice to ensure everyone has something to quaff.

    She remained in her office for the rest of the day.

    Must be nice. I had a whopping dehydration headache by the end of the day because I couldn’t stop typing long enough to get a drink. I have nearly 30 pages of notes to transcribe today. Oh, and where is Admin Assistant today? “Working from home.” Riiiight.

    1. Lillian McGee*

      She sounds like me in my first job… Oblivious. I didn’t know what was expected of me and was humiliated to find out that people thought I was lazy and flippant. But I really was just ignorant and needed guidance. I WANTED to do good work, but no one had told me what I was supposed to be doing!
      If I’m right, her supervisor needs to sit her down and explain to her that she is expected to do certain things during meetings, and tell her explicitly what those things are. Of course, I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt!

      1. Mockingjay*

        I trained her when she came on board. She has a printed list of duties on her desk. I set up folders and templates for documents on SharePoint – all she has to do is fill them in. I gave her a non-technical synopsis of our engineering work and explained the roles on the org chart. I gave her SOPs and training on all the databases.

        She is a “Chosen One” – Boss’s favorite. He likes her just as she is. Rumor has them both members of the Duck Club. They have been seen being touchy-feely with each other. (Ugh.)

      2. Kelly L.*

        Yes this! I don’t know all the backstory here, but does she know she’s expected to print brochures (like, does anyone say so, or send her the info to be printed?) and prepare PowerPoints and badges and such, and pick up bagels on the way, and so on? She might just think that these people do these things as a matter of course.

  44. Alston*

    What sites do you guys use to search for jobs? And for what type of jobs? I’m helping one of my friends look right now and mostly it’s Venturefizz or Craigslist. Any other reccomendations?

    2. voluptuousfire*

      Indeed was wonderful. I got my last two jobs from there.

      LinkedIn was helpful as well. I’ve looked at admin jobs.

      If your friend is looking for start-up jobs, try Angel List. I can’t say it’s too great but it’s a good start.

    3. KJR*

      To recruit, I mainly use Indeed and Careerbuilder. I’ve also used craigslist, career board, and university job boards if the job I’m looking to fill requires a degree.

    4. College Career Counselor*

      depends on the field/industry. I like Indeed as a job aggregator, but sometimes you find good listings on professional association websites. I like idealist.org for many nonprofit opportunities.

    5. Blue_eyes*

      I like idealist.org for non-profit type jobs. I find that most of their posts seem to be real, with very little spam, repeated posts, etc. I also use craigslist (in fact, the majority of employment I’ve had in the last 4 years has been as a result of following up on craigslist ads). Angel List is good for startups and I also use Indeed sometimes. Plus a few industry specific job boards like the one my graduate school hosts for alumni.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I liked Indeed. I also looked on Glassdoor, which came with the added bonus of company reviews. CareerBuilder here was a bust. The rest of the time, I looked at our state job website. That’s actually where I found Exjob.

      I can’t remember where I saw the first job listing I applied to at my present company (I interviewed but didn’t get it), but I found my new job on their company website.

  45. Grey*

    Have you ever read about yourself at Ask A Manager? I don’t mean literally. I mean, have you ever read a story here about a boss or coworker and thought, “Hey, that could be me”?

    Do you walk around barefoot at the office? Do you microwave fish in the break room? Do you have loud personal phone conversations? Have you ever eaten your employee’s lunches? Do you park in the company lot with a “no fat chicks” decal on your truck? Things like that.

    1. Christy*

      I microwave fish sometimes. Sometimes that’s the leftovers, which means it’s lunch. It’s usually not white fish, so it usually doesn’t smell that bad.

      One time I microwaved fish at like 10 AM. I’m a bad person.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I microwave salmon patties sometimes. I’m not sorry; if I have to smell burnt popcorn and burnt coffee (people like to go off and leave a millimeter of coffee left in the pot on the hot burner), they can handle my fish smell.

    2. Victoria, Please*

      Oh hell yes. Usually when I read about a mistake a manager made and I think “Oh my god, did I do that…yes, I did something a little like that. Don’t do that again.”

    3. SophiaB*

      I kick my shoes off under the desk and I have had to run across the office barefoot twice now! I go barefoot all the time in my non-work life, but this is an office where Reception have ties in the drawer because even visitors are not allowed in the building without a tie. It was an massive open office we were in, but fortunately customers weren’t allowed in my department, so I didn’t get a talking to about it. I keep emergency flats under my desk now just in case.

      (Our department is mostly hot desks, but the admin and management teams have specific desks, and their desks have landlines. One of the consultants from a different department would park himself on my boss’s desk and then complain that the phone kept ringing because people wanted to speak to my boss. He’d then tell them that he didn’t know where the boss was, and start talking all sorts of nonsense until I ran across and rescued the phone and re-directed the called to my boss’s mobile.

      Stop answering named phones and getting confused when the caller asks for the person who’s phone it is! The project admins do not like dashing across the office to rescue the poor caller! You could just ignore the phone!)

      1. Colleen*

        Wait… what? Your receptionist has to ask people (men only, I am assuming) to put on ties if they are not wearing them when they arrive? Awkward.

    4. Ad Astra*

      I often identify with the tales of defensive, unreliable, or argumentative employees. I don’t think those traits describe me on most days, but that’s because I work on it. When people do have complaints about me, they usually fall into those categories. I especially identify with letter writers (or the subjects of those letters) who are constantly trying to get their way through some kind of technicality. If I didn’t know better, I’d be an “Is it legal?” person. Even in my personal relationships, it’s hard for me to accept that a well composed argument isn’t going to force someone to feel the way I want them to.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yes! I still have to take lots of deep breaths and bite back defensiveness when criticized. It’s crap from my childhood and I know it. I’ve also been guilty of “I’m new and I don’t know that yet, but I’ll check.”

        I’ve microwaved fish. I’ve taken my shoes off. I’ve clipped a hangnail. I still don’t know what people mean when they say “styled” hair–in my head, that means curling a few arbitrary parts of it and using hairspray; I keep mine tied back, but I don’t think I do what people are talking about when they say “styled.”

    5. A Bug!*

      Regularly. Most often it’s “I could have written that letter X years ago,” though, from someone who’s still figuring out workplace norms and learning how to navigate professional life.

    6. Amber Rose*

      A little. I sometimes have a hard time with being too chatty, and I’m a bit of an over-sharer with personal stuff.

      But I’m better than I used to be.

      1. Slimy Contractor*

        Yeah, this is me, too. Sometimes I think I’ve never had an unspoken thought. Nobody cares, Slimy! Keep it to yourself! :)

    7. Gwen*

      Everyone I know takes their shoes off at their desk. My department is in the back of the office and fairly remote, so if we’re fairly confident no one who cares will see, people definitely walk around shoeless (I don’t personally ever go barefoot, but I’ve walked to the printer with just tights before). Also before I came on here, I had no idea people had so many strong feelings about microwaving…everywhere I’ve worked, people just heat up whatever and we deal.

    8. June*

      I feel like I could be barefoot girl! Except with tights and occasionally socks. But I am in a three person office with a rare person wandering in, so I’m not changing my ways!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        My boss pads around barefoot, so guess what? Me, too. But I only do it when things are slow and we do not expect anyone.

    9. Chrissi*

      Every time there’s a column about talkative people, I kind of sigh and think, yup, that’s me (or was). I feel the need to chime in in the comments too as a mostly reformed can’t-take-a-hint overly talkative talker to try and help nontalkative people understand how to deal with us :)

      1. Slimy Contractor*

        Sometimes I overhear people over the cubicle wall talking about something I know the answer to, and I have to bite my tongue and tell myself, “They’ll figure it out. Focus on your own work, and let them do theirs.” It may not surprise you to learn that I was kind of a know-it-all in school.

        1. Blue_eyes*

          This is totally me. I’m definitely the person who inserts myself into conversations at Starbucks (“but they were talking about teaching graduate programs, I did one of those and know about the others, they NEEDED my information!”). I hope I’m usually able to butt in fairly gracefully and not overstay my welcome in strangers’ conversations. I was totally a know-it-all too.

    10. DebbieDebbieDebbie*

      I am barefoot, random nonstop chatty officemate. But I am extremely happy to report that I am not the out of control pooper!

    11. Slimy Contractor*

      I’m always worried that one of the “my coworker talks to much and I can’t get her to shut up and let me work” letters is about me. I’m really lucky that I get along with my coworkers, but I’m trying to do better on cutting down on the chit-chat.

    12. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      We have barefooters, a lot of sneaky barefooters and occasionally I’ll go back, in stocking (tighted) feet and stand on the cool warehouse floor because it feels so good. :)

      Also, have we had a letter about a complete maniac who tries to hunt down the person who microwaved fish or burnt popcorn, calling out loudly “WHO MICROWAVED FISH” ? ‘Cause that’s me. :p

      1. Renee*

        I very quietly taped a biohazard symbol to the door of the coworker who microwaved fish at my very small office. It’s still there, like some smelly badge of honor.

    13. schnapps*

      I walk around in socks much of the time – never barefoot though. I’ve also slobbed around in flip-flops all day. I put on shoes when I have to exit the office (e.g. – bathroom, lunch) or have to step up front to meet a client. If I’m just standing a lot (not moving around, like when I have to collate stuff), then I wear shoes or my arches will collapse.

      My department head cooks full meals in our kitchen – it’s kind of rough when she cooks fish. And there was this one time she roasted cauliflower in the toaster oven.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Cauliflower is awful!

        I bite my tongue when people cook smelly vegetables but the smell is probably as bad as microwaved fish. It doesn’t seem to linger as long, though. (For whatever quirks of venting in our building, bad smell in the kitchen area floods the entire first floor and just hangs. Fish will make everyone and everything smell like fish for the entire rest of the day. It’s gagging.)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          People near the break room lobbied successfully to leave the door closed because all the chit-chat in there disturbed them when they were trying to work. It also cut way down on the burnt popcorn smell that would drift silent but deadly tendrils throughout the office. Facilities put one of those foot opener things on the inside of the door so people could get out if their hands were full, and we’re all very good about holding it for one another and trying not to slam anyone in the face by flinging it open.

        2. schnapps*

          Ugh. I work in a heritage building with really bad ventilation, on the corner of two major roads not far from downtown. Any smells from the kitchen area tend to hang around for quite awhile. My department head got a load of hell for the cauliflower, even from the two vegans in the office.

    14. InterviewFreeZone*

      Yep, most in the task vs people oriented discussions. I’m a very empathetic person, but I have super low tolerance for people who use “I’m people oriented” as an excuse for why they can’t answer basic questions about work or their progress on a project, etc.

    16. RoseRed*

      I am every employee who has ever talked too much. :-P Every post about overly chatty employees makes me think “whoops, must be me”. I don’t think any of the more bizarre-sounding ones have looked too familiar, but I’m still reading back entries–I’m sure I’ll come upon one of my “eccentricities” at some point.

  46. Zinnia*

    Moved to a new city and started a new job about two months ago. It’s going really well–I’m liking the work and the people and have been told I’m exceeding expectations for where I would be two months after hire. Since I’m new in town, I’m still working on meeting people. But I was thinking of inviting a couple of coworkers over for dinner. At my last job, this wasn’t really done. Group lunches were a thing, but nothing outside of work hours, so I’m not sure if this is a general workplace norm and it would be strange to invite people over or not. Thoughts?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      If you have a good rapport with your co-workers, it’s not unheard of, but, as you mentioned, it may vary workplace to workplace. Personally, I’ve never had coworkers over for dinner—only ex-coworkers. I find that makes things less complicated. But if you feel really close to a couple of coworkers in particular and think the feeling is mutual, it can’t hurt to ask them.

    2. T3k*

      Do you mean invite over for dinner, or meet some place for dinner? Around here, it’s almost unheard of to have dinner over at a coworker’s place, but fairly common to meet at a restaurant for dinner if they get along well. Most though tend to grab lunch together as it’s easier than trying to make time to meet up outside work hours.

  47. Jennifer M.*

    So I just received a 30 day notification on my job sort of. We are essentially a consulting firm. I spend three years out in the field in another country and returned to the home office in April. I was told that I would have time to find a job but after a certain point I would be terminated. Well, I’ve had “internal” work the entire time but none of it has been billable. I was asked to help in Department X which does no billing at all. I was asked to do some short term billable work here and there, but I had the previous commitment in the other department. Fair enough that they want me settled, but I am pissed that someone else who came back before I did has not received a similar notification (happy for her as she is a friend of mine but unhappy at the unfairness). I think it is because she has been doing more billable work than I have. So basically by helping out in that first department and them extending it over and over again, I have shot myself in the foot. Though, there is another department that needs me because they have 2 people going on maternity leave shortly. So if I am terminated, there is an excellent chance that the other department might hire me on as a consultant. Our company policy is that consultant’s get a 25% bump to their daily rate over their full time rate. So this would hopefully cover COBRA while I found a permanent position. I’m just trying to stay positive.

  48. Hlyssande*

    Another thing:

    I had my yearly merit review thing yesterday and once again pulled in a good raise and promotion to a new pay grade. They also finally – FINALLY – updated our titles to actually reflect what we do. Yay!

    Imposter syndrome is really kicking my butt, but yay anyway! The raise should take effect in my next paycheck.

    1. Anony-moose*

      I just got a raise, too! I’ve been here since October, but our fiscal year ends June 30 so my raise will be retroactive to July 1. It’s 3.6% which makes me happy – it’s more than I was expecting and has helped quell some of the nutso activity going on here.

  49. Incognito Agent*

    I’m a regular poster here, but anonymous for today. I am at a job right now where we have a very worrisome manager. This person screams regularly, has irrational outbursts, gives conflicting priorities for work on a regular basis that make it impossible to get any one job done, calls people “f-ing (insert insult here)” in front of other staff and in front of clients, gossips regularly about employees problems that should remain privileged information, and also has very emotional public crying sessions. It has taken its toll on the staff. Many staff have had breakdowns and have sought medical help for depression and anxiety. Upper management either does not know or does not care, and staff are paranoid to report for fear of reprisal. The manager is clueless that the staff are unhappy,as the manager talks regularly about what a good job they do. Turnover is not as high as it would or should be because of the niche area of clients we serve and lack of other jobs in that niche. I think I’m mostly here to vent because it seems the only solution would be for people to leave, but part of me hopes for actionable suggestions. Thoughts?

    1. Swarley*

      Yikes. I think I would start by finding out for sure if upper management or HR is actually aware of the situation. Or do you have a good relationship with your manager’s manager? Whomever you talk with, I’d keep it objective and talk about how the manager’s outbursts are impacting morale and productivity. If they choose to ignore it then I’d start looking for another job.

      And it doesn’t sound like your manager is reasonable enough to approach about this due to said outbursts. Good luck.

      1. Incognito Agent*

        Thanks for the advice. And yes, I’d be afraid to discuss with manager for fear of being “the bad guy” no matter how politely or objectively I stated it. Manager’s manager is a possible option. I just hope its not a nuclear one. I’m the kind that likes to keep their head down and work at work.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          This can change when the fear of not reporting is greater than the fear of reporting.
          Right now those fears are equal.
          “Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.” I think there comes a tipping point, a last straw, and then you know and you go do it.

          However, just for the mental exercise of it: Is there a way that his own foolishness can be used to unravel him? For example: When he is in one of his screaming modes can a big exec be called down to the office? Can you just happen to be on the phone with Big Wig in the midst of his screaming?
          Is it possible that a client will report him for his verbal abuse? Can a client be encouraged to file a complaint?
          Assuming you are an NPO, are there any monitoring agencies that will come in if a report is filed? You’d have to have something like mismanagement, mishandling funds, abuse of a protected person, something like that.

          And as long as you are doing the mental exercises: Let’s say you report him. Then, what? Suppose he retaliates? What is the worst thing he will do? What will you do if he does that (after you tell HR, “I told you so!”)? If he is just going to scream some more, well you already have that going on. Every day, you know he is going to scream some more.

          He wants everyone to have the same inferior quality of life he has. It looks like he is very effective at reaching this goal.
          It also looks like this guy is headed for a major heart event. Just my opinion, though. Clearly, he is not well on more than one level.

  50. Laura*

    I’m on the fence about whether this is work-related or not but since I’m here I’ll throw it up.

    First, and related – on Monday night I went to trivia at a local coffee shop for the first time. There is a team called the Chocolate Teapots !!! So if you live in a small college town in North Carolina and play trivia on Mondays and have a team with a cool AAM reference in your title … hello! Would it be super-weird for me to come say hi next week?

    Which leads to my somewhat work-related question. Which is: how do you make work friends? I just moved for this job. I’m an academic so we have a small cohort of people who are coming in together, which is nice. But that’s a small group. I would really like to make friends with people who are more settled here but am finding that really challenging. I want to make friends and be actively involved here socially without giving the impression that I’m here to play, not to work. Thoughts?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would TOTALLY just go over and say hi. It’s trivia! It’s fun and crazy! Saying, “I love your name” is a great opener.

      Re: work friends– proceed with caution. I have had several issues where I thought a colleague was cool, we would hang out, then I would realize he or she was a dumbass, or annoying, or just in a completely different zone. Start with suggesting everyone (or a few people) go out for a beer after work, and take it slow. Remember that you want to hang out with people because you like them, not because they’re there.

      1. Laura*

        I was on the fence about trying to figure out which table it was. “Hey, are you guys the Chocolate Teapots? Which one of you is Wakeen?”

        3. Blue_eyes*

          We could be known as “Friends of Wakeen,” like how people in AA are “Friends of Bill W.” when being discreet.

    3. Lillian McGee*

      I heard the term “chocolate teapots” before I started reading AAM. Specifically, “This thing is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.” So they may just be fans of wry simile???

    4. T3k*

      Honestly, I don’t really make friends with people I work with. I basically go by “just because we work together, doesn’t mean we get along personality wise.” If I ever happen to meet someone at a job that I actually get along with well, great! If not, that’s ok too.

      Maybe you can check out Meet Up, or see if there are local events that spark your interest and make new friends that way.

    5. Nikki T*

      Hmmm..my location could match that description. Now I will have to see what is going on at the coffee shops around town, there aren’t that many…

      Can’t help you on the work friends, mine are starting to get on my nerves :/

    6. Nanc*

      Get a library card at your local public library! Ask if they need speakers on [your academic topic here] and give a fun, informative talk about whatever is cool and current in your area and why it’s interesting to the general public. If you’ve written books give a talk on those–even if they’re geared towards other academics–library card holders show up for everything, especially if there’s free coffee and cookies!

      Is there a Chamber of Commerce in your town? Is your university a member? If they are, find out who the liaison is and ask if you can attend one of the greeters or networking functions as a guest. If the Chamber puts on any sort of community event, you could volunteer, even if it’s just a one day thing. You could also ask if they know of a newcomers group. My small town with a university has one–they meet once a month and it’s just a chance for for new folks to mingle and ask lots of questions.

    7. afiendishthingy*

      Late, but this just occurred to me as I was reading upthread about someone wondering about inviting coworkers over for dinner. I agree with those who responded saying that would be very unusual in most workplaces, but I’m wondering if academia has different norms or if it’s just my experience. My dad is an academic in a small college town, and lot of my parents’ social circle is other academics. The town itself is very conservative, but the university faculty skews much more liberal. Also many of the faculty are transplants and so naturally find one another. Anyway, my parents have been there thirty years now, and my dad helps with some new faculty orientation stuff, and often will invite whoever he hits it off with there over for dinner. I would try to reach outside of just your cohort and department, see what activities/committees/clubs/whatever interest you, so you’ll have a pretty natural way to meet people who are within the university setting but who you won’t have to see every single day if it turns out they’re super annoying. Not that you have to limit yourself to just academics, of course, but it may be the easiest place to start and then they can introduce you to other people. Good luck! It’s hard making friends as an adult. I have this preconceived notion that it’s easier within academia, but maybe my parents are just unusually social.

      1. Laura*

        Yes, I do think academia is weird in this way! Especially when the school is somewhat isolated, not having work friends is basically equivalent to having no friends. I like the idea of trying to find institutional stuff that isn’t related to my cohort/department. Thanks!

  51. Ella*

    I need some advice on a situation with our cleaning lady. Let’s call her Jane. We adore her and she does an excellent job. There is a bit of a language barrier, but we have no complaints with her. However, about 6 months ago, her husband, “Joe,” lost his job. Now Joe comes with her to “help” her. He does not do as good of a job as her, but that’s not the problem. Joe is a U.S. citizen who speaks perfect English, but he has zero idea of social norms for some reason. He is constantly bringing up money, like how they don’t have enough to even make a cake for their kid’s birthday (I mean how much does a box mix cost, $1?). Jane I don’t think quite realizes what her husband is saying because her English isn’t great. Meanwhile, we pay them $100 to clean the house every other week, and they actually drive nicer cars than my husband and I do. I’m not judging this, but this is all relevant to the big kicker: They recently asked us to “help them out” with a $4,000 medical bill they have. I am sympathetic to medical bills, but I feel this is wildly inappropriate to ask a customer to give you extra money to pay bills (no talk of a loan, just asking if we could help). They could sell their brand new car to cover it if they want, and asking for money in combination with them constantly talking about how they don’t have any money is making us really uncomfortable. Am I off base here in not wanting to give them money? And any suggestions for how to deflect future comments about this? I’ve suggested to my husband (who is the one usually home when they are there) to respond when they make a comment about money to say “I’m sorry, I feel your pain though, we have tons of student loans to pay!” or “Wow, I’m kind of uncomfortable knowing other people’s financial information!” Those seem kind of cold and awkward, though, and I don’t think he wants to say that. Any advice? We are considering just finding new people to clean the house because it’s becoming a stressful issue.

    1. Bekx*

      Maybe a “I’m sorry, it’s just not in our budget.”

      It sounds like Joe is really risking Jane’s job. I’d be uncomfortable in your shoes.

    2. the gold digger*

      That is really out of line. I would be super uncomfortable, too, and would probably fire them. (Even though it is really hard to find good help – I had to fire one cleaning lady for letting her toddler daughter scribble with pen on my white sofa. She was so good until then – she even washed windows. “That’s part of cleaning a house, right?” she asked.)

    3. Traveler*

      This is really out of line with US cultural norms, but it might not be out of line with foreign cultural norms. Have you done any research into their culture of origin, and how these sorts of things are treated there? It might give you an opening to discussing how things are different here in the US that would be more sensitive, and would leave you feeling less cold and awkward.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      I think you’re being a little judgmental and making a lot of assumptions about their finances, but they also brought it on themselves by discussing their financial issues with you. If you’re paying fairly for the cleaning (including enough to make sure she can pay whatever taxes/social security she has to pay because she’s an independent contractor) then that’s the extent of your agreement. But I also don’t think Joe should be coming at all. You wouldn’t let any other employee bring her husband to work. I think you can tell her that you don’t want Joe coming along, but this situation does concern me because he seems to have questionable boundaries and I’m not sure I’d want anyone with questionable boundaries in my house without me there.

      1. Chriama*

        Domestic work often has a different standard from other employment situations though. Many people would let their nanny bring her kid to the job, for example. I think it’s fine to request that Joe doesn’t come along, but it’s not inherently unprofessional.

        For this specific request I would just say you’re sorry but you can’t help, and ignore any future comments about finances – just redirect the conversation without even acknowledging what they said.

        However: someone who makes comments like that would make me uncomfortable enough to fire them, just because I don’t want the potential for jealousy in my house. Even if they never do anything but quietly resent me for what they think I have, I don’t want to be the target of their envy. If I ever hired a cleaner it would be through a company rather than a lone person, even though it’s more expensive, because it makes the relationship less personal — I’m just one customer on a list.

      2. Artemesia*

        This. People with boundary issues are a risk to have in your home. I would not allow her to have her husband come into your home during work hours. But this one may be burnt. You may have to let her go. My spidey sense is really tingling on this one.

    5. Ad Astra*

      Have you considered offering to refer Jane to your friends or family so she can pick up more work? Sure, it’s possible she already works 80 hours per week and doesn’t need new clients, but it wouldn’t hurt to ask. Or does Joe have some kind of skill (even just mowing the lawn or moving logs) that you or your friends and family might hire him to do? I think those are the most appropriate ways for a client to help an employee who’s hurting for money.

    6. LCL*

      Joe doesn’t have zero idea of social norms, he knows exactly what he is doing. He is trying to guilt and extort you into paying more. You must be very nice, because you are questioning if it is even OK for you to not want to give him money. You are even considering hiring someone else rather than directly saying no. As many people before me have made the point, no is a complete sentence. Pay Jane more if you think you should, or don’t. I wouldn’t let Joe in my house anymore.

      1. F.*

        I would also be concerned that items of value might turn up missing. Joe sounds like a con-man. Demand that he not come to your house anymore and make it stick.

    7. fposte*

      I feel like you’re going unnecessarily into the weeds on this. You do not need to explain to people why you’re not going to pay their medical bills or analyze why how they could or couldn’t pay them. “Sorry, Joe, I can’t help you. Please don’t ask again.”

      (Remember the post earlier this week about “Why do these people always approach me?” I bet Joe has raised this with everybody Jane cleans for, and some of shut him right down already. Feel free to join them.)

    8. Ella*

      Thanks everyone for the good advice. I think we’re probably going to part ways. This has made us really uncomfortable and these are people that come in to our home, which you should obviously be comfortable with! As some of you noted though, it’s going to be tough to find a replacement. Sigh.

      1. jimbs*

        You would rather fire her than be direct with her? That seems unkind. It might be useful for her to know that her husband is alienating her customers; at least mention that if you fire her.

        “Please don’t bring your husband with you to clean my home.”

  52. Tris Prior*

    Had a situation where the boss approved vacation time on the same days for nearly our entire very small company. Apparently he did not notice this (although it was on the vacation calendar that everyone can access) until I called it to his attention, as I’m one of two people who doesn’t have those days off.

    On the plus side, he recognizes that the two of us cannot cover the entire company’s workload and that some deadlines may slip. But he’s not making anyone cancel their plans (to be fair, I believe everyone is traveling). I’m just baffled as to how this even happens.

    1. Erin*

      That is silly that that went unnoticed, but hopefully now that it’s happened he’ll know not to let it happen again.

      I do think it would be unfair of him to make people cancel their plans, and revoke time off that he already approved.

      Hopefully, A) He’ll pitch in himself during those two days, and/or B) You can use this as an excellent opportunity to prove your awesome worth at the company.

      2. Tris Prior*

        Oh, and, you’re right, it wouldn’t be cool to ask people to cancel their plans. It’s just, everywhere I’ve worked before, there were processes and policies to make sure that everyone wasn’t off at the same time. Maybe this is a small-company-with-no-HR thing.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      While this is indeed a Not Good thing to have happen, I respect your boss a lot for acknowledging that it’s his mistake. Maybe that’s just me projecting these days, but I wish more bosses would say, “Oops! I goofed. Now I must help fix it without penalizing anyone but myself.”

    3. Katie the Fed*

      Bosses are human – we make mistakes. I made a COLOSSAL mistake recently with two of my employees – basically promised them both the same special assignment because I completely forgot that I’d had a conversation with one of them. I felt like a total ass and apologized profusely and found a win/win solution for both of them.

      But yeah – we screw up.

      1. LCL*

        How it happens? Holiday weekend + one pre vacation injury claim + one soon to be retired and at the DGAS stage sicking out for the whole weekend + me screwing up the DGAS employee vacation because he changed the dates 4 times counting the last minute request + one last minute vacation request approved by me BEFORE the sickouts ’cause it worked on paper + all the usual OT fill in people out of town or entertaining relatives…

    4. Chriama*

      Was this a mix-up or a system failure? My boss keeps a calendar of everyone’s vacation requests. If you want time off, she checks the calendar, and if she verbally confirms it’s good we send an ‘official’ request by email that she responds to so that everyone’s on the same page. It sounds like this guy might just be keeping the schedule in his head. Just because there are fewer employees doesn’t mean it’s a waste of time to make a semi-formal process for this going forward.

  53. Potential Librarian?*

    Do any librarians read AMA? I’m currently working at a library (been here 1.5 years now!) and am really very happy here. I like the tasks, I like my coworkers, and I like the work culture. But I’ve realized I can’t move up the ranks until I get an MLS or MLiS. The problem is that I’m still paying off my student loans from undergrad, and I’m not entirely sure if I’d be able to make enough as a librarian to still have enough to make rent, eat, and see the occasional movie if I’m paying back two sets of loans. I’ve asked at work about educational assistance but all we’re eligible for is $1,000/ academic year… which is half of what it costs to take 3 credits at the nearest library school (UMD). So, librarian AMA readers:

    1) Do you have any financial difficulties after taking out a loan for an MLS/MLiS?
    2) Do people in the field look down on librarians with cheaper online master’s degrees?

    I love this field and I want to stay in it, but I want to be realistic about how to do so. Thank you very much to anyone who can help!

    1. An Archivist*

      I have more student loans from my MLS than I do from my Ph.D. in history. But, yeah, you really do need the piece of paper to move up. Most physical MLS programs now have completely online programs, so you can avoid bias by going with one of those. Simmons apparently now has an entirely online program, and they have a good reputation. But I do know people who got the online degree from San Jose State and haven’t had any problems. Experience is more important than where the degree is from, and you already have a lot!

      1. Potential Librarian?*

        Thank you for letting me know about Simmons and San Jose State! I will definitely look into them.

        (Also, I’m really surprised that you’re more in debt from the MLS! If it’s not too forward of me to ask, did you get fully funded for your Ph.D.?)

    2. Erin*

      I seriously looked into being a librarian awhile back and ultimately decided not to for just this reason (still paying off bachelor’s degree loans, librarians don’t make a lot of money, etc.)

      I do think it’s possible as you continue working your ample experience can serve as a tool in and of itself to move up, in place of the MLS.

      I’m slightly biased because I recently read basically an entire book on how paying off all debt is essential to move forward financially, but, I would say to hold off on this for now.

      1. GrandCanyon Jen*

        I got my MLIS four years ago and never found a full-time library job. I didn’t take out any loans to do it, but it would be nice to have that $10K to use on home improvements… If I moved to a different area I could probably find a full-time job (the library job market is pretty saturated here), but my husband really likes his job, we own a home, and we like our city. I wish I would have taken a library paraprofessional position instead of getting my MLIS. Because I can’t afford to work only part-time, I’m now an elementary-school secretary. With a master’s degree.

    3. Cheddar2.0*

      My sister got her MLiS 10 years ago and has been unable to find full-time permanent work since :( Her loans are enormous and she ended up starting her own business after giving up on trying to break into the library scene.

      1. Kerry (Like the County in Ireland)*

        I say do NOT get a library degree, and I have a MLIS and a librarian job. The trend in the public library systems is hiring fewer MLIS librarians–you’d do better with extensive public service and event planning experience and tech knowledge. The actual degree program is tiresome and not that rigorous. Overall, the market is in such flux any projections about employement, how to get a job, and where the jobs are are just bullshit.

        Seriously, unless someone is offering tuition help it is not worth it. Keep doing what you’re doing, take on stretch projects, hone your personal interests, and that will be more valuable in the future.

        1. Potential Librarian?*

          Thank you very much for the advice, Kerry! I do event planning at the library (which is why I didn’t need a MLS/ MLiS to get the position)- I’m glad to hear that the kind of work I like to do won’t cause me to get further in debt.

      2. Anomnomnom*

        I have an MLS and am in a similar position, though it’s only been 5 years for me. I have a temp job outside the library world and work as a Saturday substitute branch librarian.

    4. Anoners*

      Librarian here. I wouldn’t say the the extra MLIS degree cost is a burden. I’m in Canada so all my school loans are combined through the government program, so it’s not too much more payment wise (I also managed to pay most of my second year off myself by working). Having said that, grad programs are only about 8 k a year here for tuition (“only”.. ugh). My American friend had to pay 20 k a year tuition. So, I guess a lot depends on where you are and how much it’ll cost you.

      I don’t hire in libraries, so I can ‘t say for sure if people put weight on where you went to school. Most job postings I see just say you need to have graduated from an ALA accredited program. So the school you go to MUST have this or it’s pretty much a waste of time.

      You are in a really good spot because it sounds like you already have your foot in the door. Most people who I know who graduated from a MLIS program are not working in the field. I went to school with lots of people who already worked in a library, and just needed the accreditation to move up. They were in the best position because they pretty much already had a job lined up for them. I have a hard time recommending library school unless the person going is willing to work in a job outside of a traditional academic/public setting. Everyone I went to school with had a super specific niche “dream” job in mind, and once they realized they couldn’t have that exact job, gave up.There are tons of jobs (legal, gov, etc.) that MLIS degrees work well with. Anywhoo, just my views on it.

    5. cataloger*

      I got a a graduate assistantship (which waived tuition) during library school, so I didn’t have to take out any loans, but it was part-time and didn’t pay well, so I did have to work other jobs. My first job out of library school was not a librarian position (professional staff for two years) but it did get me the needed experience/reputation to get the librarian position I have now.

      As others have said, many library/information science schools have gone completely online (including University of Kentucky, where I got my MLIS in f2f classses) and it’s no problem. As long as the school is ALA-accredited, it counts; the fact that you have library experience already (yay!) will be a bigger factor in finding library jobs than which school you got a degree from.

      Good luck with whatever you decide!

    6. Fireye*

      Librarian here and all I can say is I absolutely love the profession and have not found the hardships others here are posting about. The degree will count no matter if it’s online or in-person as long as you make sure it’s from an ALA accredited school. One thing to consider looking at are placement rates after graduation. I went to a school that has consistently had 100% of graduates enter employment, an internship or a PhD program within a year of graduating. For me that spoke volumes to how well the program was preparing students for what was next (although there is a big difference between an internship and employment). I cannot speak to the loan situation as I only have loans for half of my grad school tuition and none from undergrad carrying over. I did work 3 part-time jobs through grad school to help cover costs but thats not always feasible. Good luck! The profession is changing but it’s been the best move for my career I could have ever made.

    7. Lost in Libraryland*

      I’m a library manager and from the perspective at the ‘top’ it seems that all we do is hire – seriously. I know this depends on your sector and location but if you’re willing to move to keep gaining experience, there are jobs both in traditional library settings and in many other ‘knowledge management’ roles. Make sure your degree is ALA accredited and keep building your skills in new areas. Your previous experience counts too. Event management – awesome for outreach librarian positions in public libraries, for example. Every generation of aspiring and new librarians is told that ‘there are no jobs’ and truthfully some really good people aren’t able to find one. Luck plays a role. Low pay? Move on if you can. The degree means you can work almost anywhere in the world and the career is great.

      1. FutureLibrarian*

        Not OP, but can I ask what state you’re in? As I posted below, I am currently on the hunt for a job as I graduate in December, and am always looking for the areas doing a lot of hiring!

        1. Lost in Libraryland*

          Sorry, Canadian academic library. But check out Library Journal’s salary report to see where the best paid US jobs are. Good luck!

          1. FutureLibrarian*

            Oh really? That’s interesting. I happen to live in a border state, and was considering looking for jobs up North.

            Does the degree in the states translate, or is it not worth my time to look?

    8. FutureLibrarian*

      Well, as evidenced by my username, I am currently earning my MLIS.

      I’m at a major public university, and while I did have a scholarship last year for a small portion of my tuition, I will end up around 50K in debt, total, for both undergrad and grad. Having a graduate student job neither pays enough nor provides you with enough hours to even make a dent in your tuition. I know some offer tuition reimbursement, but not my program.

      Basically, you need to either have something lined up and guaranteed in your system, or you need to be prepared to pack up and move to wherever the best offer is. I anticipate finding a job (and know many who have), but am prepared to move a long way from home. I’ve also started job hunting already, as I graduate in December.

      Most schools these days offer at least a partially online program or fully online program, and no one thinks anything of it. Graduate school for librarians is nothing more than a rubber stamp with some very, very, very expensive ink. You will learn more working in a library than you ever do in a classroom!

      Also, if I cannot, for whatever reason, find a job, I am prepared to do something else and live at home with mom and dad while continuing to job hunt and volunteer at libraries. This is all I can imagine doing with my life, so, I am prepared to do what it takes to be a librarian.

      Good luck with whatever your decision is!

    9. Sparkly Librarian*

      I did my MLIS online, and have been hired into a system with many alumni of the same school. However, I made a point to pay off all of my undergraduate loans before starting grad school, and then I scrimped for a few years while working/schooling full-time so that I could repay my grad school loans in full at graduation (before interest kicked in). I definitely did not want to carry debt out of it.

      Working in a library as a paraprofessional gives you a leg up post-MLIS, for sure. Are you full-time currently? Can you stay put on your current earnings while you pay down your undergraduate debt? In my system (which may be different than yours), an experienced Library Assistant is paid about as much as a starting Librarian, but doesn’t require the degree. You might have a little room to grow professionally before taking on the graduate program.

    10. MJ*

      It may be because Texas subsidizes tuition at state universities, but my MLS only cost $12k, online through TWU. I believe UNT is similar in cost.

      Often states have reciprocal agreements with nearby states, so you might look for programs where you might be eligible for paying lower rates as a resident

      I learned a lot in my MLS program… I think what you get out of it is in proportion to what you put in to it, and I was very much interested in learning great all I could.

      You will have difficulty moving up the ranks without the degree.

  54. Victoria, Please*

    AAM Large Brain! Has anyone figured out a professional thing to do with one’s hands during a meeting? I’m convinced that much of the fiddling with phones and things is because we need something to do with our hands during a time when we are listening but not needing to take notes.

    I used to have a colleague who would knit simple scarves during long meetings and it looked terrible, but I could see the point! She was fully engaged and active, and way less bored and frustrated than she would have been if she’d been sitting there with nothing in her hands. I had another colleague who was a heavy doodler, and that looked as bad as the knitting if not worse.

    So, this activity needs to be: Not taking notes (because we don’t need to do that ALL the time). Not doodling (some of us aren’t doodlers). But professional-looking.

    Any thoughts? Have we talked about this before? I seem to remember talking about this before.

    1. the gold digger*

      I used to knit during the meetings when I was a Peace Corps volunteer because my co-workers could take an entire day to discuss (but not resolve), “Should our mission be to serve Mapuche women” or “to serve YOUNG Mapuche women?”

      The director of my agency finally asked me to stop knitting, telling me it was distracting.

      She told me this while she had her blouse open and a baby nursing at her breast. And three other women were doing the same.

      Knitting = distracting.
      Nursing babies and toddlers and four year olds, exposed breasts, children in the office = not distracting

        1. TheLazyB (UK)*

          We’ll ignore how loud the kids will be when they’ve finished. Babies and toddlers ALWAYS know when to be quiet!!!!

          Love,
          The mother of a four year old child who is VERY NOISY

      2. Victoria, Please*

        I do find knitting distracting! The needles click a bit and they are always moving so my eyes want to go to the movement. Plus, it’s just mesmerizing to see something beautiful shaping up as if by magic.

        But, uh, breastfeeding is pretty distracting too.

        1. TheLazyB (UK)*

          I’ve nursed my four year old in public without anyone noticing.

          But I would never do so in the office, so there you go.

    2. Hlyssande*

      I used to knit during classes in college for just that reason. I wasn’t good at it, but it kept my hands busy so I could actually focus. And yes, I was still able to take good notes!

      In convention meetings, at conventions, and at other volunteer stuff, I always take something to do with my hands. Right now it’s wire knitting around a stick. I’m good enough at it that it’s practically mindless.

      I wish I could do the same during long, interminable conference calls. I always get so, so distracted by other emails or AAM or something. :(

      1. F.*

        I knitted my way through a paralegal certificate in night school while working full-time days. It was the only way I could stay awake and focus. One semester I knitted a baby blanket for one of my instructors, a young attorney whose wife was expecting their first child. I gave it to him on the last day of class. He and his wife loved it.

    3. Sascha*

      I wear a leather bracelet that I mess with during meetings. I keep my hands below table level though, so it’s out of sight. If that’s not possible, I suggest clasping your fingers together so they don’t get the urge to wiggle around. :)

    4. Charlotte Collins*

      I wish I could knit during meetings, but it would definitely look strange where I work. (Even though I can pay attention while knitting – everyone knits or spins or something during my monthly knitting guild meetings! But other people might not see it that way and don’t know that there’s a difference between knitting a simple hat and knitting a lace shawl.) I would say the rule is that if other people are doing handwork, so can you.

      Otherwise, I always have a notebook and pen at all meetings. You might need to take notes, but you can always work on your to-do list, etc. It looks professional, keeps your hands occupied, and can end up being extremely useful.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      My pens always end up broken and disassembled in this situation. Careful for when a piece goes flying across the room, though!

    6. Nikki T*

      I always just look at the speaker and I always feel weird for being the only one looking at the speaker and then the speaker focuses on me….Now I stare intently at the agenda.

      I guess I’ve never really needed anything to do with my hands. Maybe fiddle with the pen?

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Ha. Me too. I guess I just do more eye contact than other people, so I always wind up having talks delivered right to me.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          As a former instructor, I do the same thing. On the other hand, if I have a question, I get it answered very quickly.

    7. afiendishthingy*

      I have a fidget toy for kids with ADHD I play with sometimes. It is probably distracting… but my agency serves kids with neurological/psychiatric/developmental disorders so I figure it’s pretty safe. And better than my colleague who jiggles his leg the whole time.

  55. Negotiating Vacation*

    I’m expecting to receive a job offer next week and would love some advice. My understanding is that the pay is based on years of experience, so I don’t think there is room to negotiate there. What I would like to try and negotiate is for 4 weeks of vacation (up from the 3 that I’m pretty sure they’ll offer). I currently can take as much unpaid vacation as I want and have absolutely no paid vacation. So I’d be super happy with 4 weeks of paid vacation, but if I can’t get an additional paid week I’d like to make sure that I can take some unpaid time. My husband currently has 6 weeks and I’d like to be able to travel with him for more than half of that.

    The job offer (if it comes, fingers crossed!) will also offer health insurance, which I won’t need since I have an excellent plan through my husband. I don’t know whether that offers any leverage.

    I’ve never negotiated a job offer before and would love a script or language that I could use or just any advice.

    1. the gold digger*

      If you are in the US, I would suggest that your husband make sure that he will not have to pay a penalty for keeping you on his insurance once you are eligible to get it through your own employer. My husband’s employer would have let me stay on his insurance (which was a million times better than the plan offered at my job), but we would have had to pay a penalty of $100 a month.

      1. Negotiating Vacation*

        Thanks for pointing that out. I am in the US but there isn’t a penalty for him to keep me on his insurance. I’m actually eligible for a plan at my current job but his is so much better and luckily there isn’t a penalty.

    2. PX*

      I would search the site for some of the general scripts regarding negotiating salary, and then try and tweak them to negotiating vacation days. I think the principle shouldnt change too much!

  56. not for me*

    Any tips on convincing your boss to let you work remotely?

    My husband is applying to jobs in a pretty narrow field close to my hometown, which is ultimately where we’d like to live in the future. I work at a company whose CEO is VERY anti-remote work, so my boss won’t even consider it right now. But I suspect that even if the CEO was okay with it, she might not be (even though my job is 100% suited for remote work).

    We’re expecting some organizational changes soon so our CEO might not be the final word on this at that point. But how can I try selling my boss on the idea of moving about 3 hrs away and still working for the company?

    1. The IT Manager*

      Come up with pros and cons from your bosses perspective and really consider ways to eliminate or mitigate the cons. But you need to consider it from their POV. What will you miss out on not being in the office? How can they work around it? Is it worth it for them to work around it to keep you on rather than just hire your replacement.

      TBH it is a hard sell to be the first one to telework because there’s no infrastructure and processes in place yet and implementing them for one person may not be cost effective. If everyone works from home then teleconference meetings are common. If you are the only person working from home and the only one dialing in the meeting, you will miss out. It is harder to do teleconferences than in person meeting; there is less communication and more technical issues.

  57. Cheddar2.0*

    Yes, I’ve been waiting for open thread Friday! I really need some advice :(
    I’m having some issues with my boss and (for those of you who remember Hildi’s amazing post) it comes down to task-versus-people orientation. My boss is incredibly task oriented, to the point where it’s problematic because she doesn’t give “credit” for any work that anyone does that can’t be itemized into deliverables. As a very people – oriented person, I am really struggling lately with what appears to be a complete lack of empathy, interest, and feedback. This came to a head recently as I found out I need surgery and was trying to talk to my boss about short term disability and potential accommodations and her response was, word for word, “should you be working on this stuff during work hours?” Not a single sign of empathy or encouragement. I’m wondering if it’s worthwhile to bring up our differences in personality and how I feel totally uncared-for. Anyone ever successfully had a chat like this with their boss? Or should I just move on and start looking for other jobs?

    1. Chriama*

      The stuff you were working on “during work hours” was how to coordinate benefits and accomodations for a medical procedure? That sounds like a significant lack of empathy, and honestly I’m not sure how anyone who acts like that can be a great boss. (Ironic that the other post today is about whether or not bad bosses and employees can change!). I think the difficulty with expressing things to her is the fact that ‘feeling uncared-for’ isn’t actionable feedback, but I’d love to hear scripts from other people.

      1. Cheddar2.0*

        Yes, I specifically had told her I was looking into the process (in terms of paperwork) so that we wouldn’t be caught off guard when the time comes for me to actually use any disability benefits. And then she said that and the conversation came to a screeching halt. I understand that both her position and personality are very task-oriented but it feels like she doesn’t care at all about me (or the other coworkers). It’s not even that she’s a mean or bad person, it just seems be literally incomprehensible to her that there’s any benefit to bonding with people at work even a little bit. Which is actually kind of bad, as our work requires a fair amount of people skills and collaboration.

        1. fposte*

          And as a task-oriented person, I note that she is also incorrect–that is indeed appropriate for your work hours.

          Here’s the sticky part–it’s almost always doom to say “Hey, stop being the way you are.” What you’d need to do is find quantifiable things to suggest that you’d find helpful. Don’t expect to state a general principle about bonding or being recognized as a person and expect her to extrapolate. Activate your relationship-to-task translator. “Boss, I think you’d get even better work out of some of us in the organization if you occasionally acknowledged our human sides that go beyond work. I have two suggestions for you–would you like to hear them?”

          2. F.*

            I am very task-oriented. I sometimes need someone to explain to me how being more relationship oriented can help get the task done. I am the person some of you call “blunt” and “rude”. I am learning so much from AAM, though. My boss is also good about helping me understand how to reach and motivate my colleagues and the company owner to do the things that need to be done to get results.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’m sorry. This sucks.

      My own experience was that I had to move on. I just couldn’t be successful in an environment that was so out of whack with what I value. I admire the work my former employer does, but it didn’t bring out the best in me. I’m much happier working in an organization that share my (operational) values.

  58. Beezus*

    OMG, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. One of the managers I work with (not for) just reset 3,000 cells of intricate conditional formatting as a “favor” to me because he thought it was wrong. It wasn’t wrong, he just didn’t understand how it was supposed to work, and rather than ask, he went in and changed it and then told me like I was an idiot who’s been publishing this information inaccurately for the couple of months he’s been aware of the file and would be grateful to him for spending his time setting it right.

    (I barged into his office and asked him if he was punking me, then explained why it was right in the first place and why it was that way. He said that should be more obvious. I explained that it was obvious to the people who actually use the file for its intended purpose (it’s been around for years, he just started sharing it with me a couple of months ago because he can piggyback off of my data to do some other calculations. I don’t mess with his data and I expected him not to make changes to mine, grrrrr.) I can revoke his access to the file, but the stuff he’s working on is mission critical and he needs the data to do it, so I can’t get away with doing it over one incident. I could make him rewrite his stuff so it’s in a separate file that just pulls data from mine, but I think that would be an overreaction at this point. He offered to fix it, but I asked him to just keep his focus on his own sections of the file and leave my parts alone.

    I thought it was going to be a quiet Friday.

      1. Beezus*

        Unfortunately, no. I made some significant revisions earlier this week and my backup file is older than that, plus there are day-to-day tweaks that I would lose. Shame on me for not updating my backup…I’m going to write a script that saves a short-term backup automatically, I think.

        1. another IT manager*

          If it’s on a server, your IT should be making backups and may be able to restore a backup. Shadow Copies are REALLY AWESOME for this.

          For longer-term backups, I’m a huge fan of Carbonite, if your company is willing to pay for backup services.

        2. Observer*

          Check with IT. If not, you really, really need some sort of backup strategy.

          The following suggestion is ONLY if your company does not do backups – if they do, they are likely not going to take this well, but if they don’t that’s a strong sign that they don’t have any information security in place, nor do they know enough to care.

          There are a number of services you can use to back up your files, and the good ones will do versioning. Some are free, some a freemium (ie a small amount of data is free, and above that you pay) and some are paid for. But even the ones you pay for are not that expensive, and may be worth the money.

    3. puddin*

      OMG I would flip! Absolutely have him access a secondary file. He crossed over so many lines here. He does not own the data nor the report, it not the original intended user, did not consult with you ahead of time, does not know that he does not understand the report, nor does he seem to be apologetic for the extra work he caused you.

      Yep, he is in separate report town permanently. I would even be tempted to make this SOP going forward for ‘secondary users.

      1. Beezus*

        The only, only reason he’s accessing it directly in the first place is because until his immediate-boss-until-recently, Fergus, is the one who originated the file when he worked in my team years ago. Fergus is an Excel wizard – the man can code VBA script off the top of his head. Fergus understood the file inside out and was very generous with his time helping me troubleshoot/improve it, and I allowed his team direct access to it as a favor to him because I trusted him with it. He left a couple of weeks ago, and….yeah, this might not work anymore.

        I sent my boss a note letting him know what happened and how I handled it. I’ll talk to him about it next week. The thing is, the offender is a longterm employee, he outranks me, and there’s a chance I could end up working with him more closely or even for him someday – I’ve already experienced that once in my career, and it was not fun. I’ll lobby harder to kick him out if something like this happens again, but the career capital cost is too high for me to do it now. If my boss decides to do it on his own, that’s a different story. :)

        1. puddin*

          Good weigh out of the pro’s and con’s. And smart of you to keep the politics in mind. Hope all goes well!

    4. TheLazyB (UK)*

      Oh Jesus. I just started to teach myself conditional formatting and I feel sick at the thought.

      I would totally make him save his own copy that pulls from yours (but that’s SOP at our work).

      (I sent a nested IF formula to one of my colleagues yesterday because I knew she’d be impressed.)

      1. Judy*

        I think you can also just lock certain sheets or even certain ranges of fields.

        We had excel tools at a past job where you edited the values in the yellow boxes, and you got outputs in the green boxes, but you could only edit the cells with yellow boxes. The intermediate calculations happened in non-color coded boxes, even with those cells locked.

        It’s also possible you could copy the conditional formatting from your back up and paste the formatting into the current file.

    6. Anony-moose*

      I want to throw something at the wall for you.

      I am the default data person here because I have decent excel skills and my team (2 other people) are CONSTANTLY going into my spreadsheets and “updating them”. They don’t understand excel at all so we’re talking just typing text into a box where I have a complex formula.

      I’ve locked everything in the past but I do need them in there…just not messing with the master report page that says DO NOT EDIT. :)

    9. Elkay*

      Undo! Undo!

      Our Excel whizz in the office used to protect cells so people couldn’t over-write her careful formatting.

    10. Steve G*

      Wait, so he just undid the conditional formatting or he redid the parameters? Curious because I usually only enter rules myself (usually if the cell is above or below a certain value or is blank) and it is very hard to tell if the formatting rule is “correct” or not or for anyone to even know what the rules are for….

  59. over educated and underemployed*

    Two part comment here. One venting in case anyone else is in a similar situation, or has been – the moral support here can be great! And one asking an actual question.

    Venting: Last night I kind of lost it from the anxiety and stress of working while conducting a job search. It feels like the worst of both worlds – I feel a lot of pressure to find something because my current term position ends this winter, but I also am spending the vast majority of my very, very limited free time during my work week just to get in three applications a week (long commute, home responsibilities, etc.). I’ve only had three in person interviews in two months, so I feel really hopeless and anxious about the future. I don’t think I can do this for another year – please please tell me there might be light at the end of the tunnel sooner than that.

    Question: how late is too late to apply for a listed job? I’ve been applying with either smaller nonprofits (small enough that you just send a resume and cover letter) or large universities/organizations with online HR systems. I haven’t gotten a single call for any of my large org applications, just some e-mail rejections, so clearly I’m striking out with their online systems or just not competitive within larger applicant pools. But every phone screen or interview request I’ve gotten for the small nonprofits has been when I’ve applied for a job within a couple days after posting. This is making me think it isn’t even worth applying for something that’s been listed online for a week, much less two. Is this true? Is it true for both small and large orgs?

    1. OhNo*

      I’m sorry your job search is a pain so far. :( Job searching is one of those things that seems to be feast or famine, so hopefully you’ll start getting an upswing in responses soon. If you think it would help, try giving yourself a week (or however long you can stand) completely off from job searching. Sometimes just giving yourself permission to relax for a few days can help reduce the stress and let you come back at it refreshed when you start up again.

      For the timing question, what I’ve found is that smaller organizations seem to hire a bit faster than big ones. They don’t have as much staff time to devote to the search, and honestly the gap in their workforce probably has a bigger impact than it would in larger org with multiple redundancies built in. So it makes sense that they would try and hire someone ASAP rather than waiting weeks to collect resumes before moving on in the process.

      My standard cut-off for the kind of jobs I apply to are 1 week after posting for small orgs, and 2 weeks or the closing date for large orgs. It sounds like you might be in similar circumstances in your field, at least with the small orgs.

    2. fposte*

      No, it’s not true.

      It might be true for some jobs, where they don’t have a close date and just move on when they have enough in the pool, so it’s definitely better to apply earlier just in case. But it’s never a reason to just bail on applying entirely.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This is only tangentially related. What are you doing to help ease some of that stress? My suggestion is to build your plan B. Figure out some of the things you will do if you do not find a job by winter. You could ponder this during your commute time. The reason I am saying this is because that stress could be coming out in your job search and that’s not good. I know if I have a plan for worst case scenario, I start to calm down and work sharper at my current stuff.

    4. BRR*

      Three in person interviews in two months is pretty decent. It’s really tough to name a timeline. I’d say anything within a month for a posting with no deadline is fair game. This is completely arbitrary though. We hired for a position that collected resumes for 3 months.

    5. onnellinen*

      Ugh – job hunting, especially when you’ve got a deadline, is the worst. Hope you find something soon.

      If a job is still posted *and* doesn’t clearly have a closing date that’s past, I think it is never too late to apply. In hiring, a week or two is hardly enough time for anyone to look at the resumes – I think it’s just a coincidence, and hopefully you’ll get more soon. I know when I’ve been involved in hiring, we’ve posted for a minimum of 3 weeks because even serious job-hunters may not check our orgs careers page more than once a week, and we want good candidates to have enough time to see the posting, and put together an application.

    6. Felicia*

      Not true in my small non profit. We had a job listed for four weeks, and we didn’t even look at any of the aps until that four week deadline had passed. The person who ultimately got it applied about two and a half weeks after it was posted. The people we interviewed who were mostly strong contenders applied anywhere from an hour after we posted teh job, to an hour before it expired, four weeks later, to a bunch of times in between. When they applied didn’t really affect our decision.

  60. Kristine*

    How early is too early to ask about a raise? I’ve been with this company a little over 4 months. The salary they offered (that they wouldn’t negotiate on) was average for the job. However, I am pulling 50-60 hour weeks and am starting to feel underpaid. The other benefits are eh and the commute is long.

    1. Technical Editor*

      Wait til 6 months and ask for a review with your manager. Make sure you document what value you’ve brought to the company – in dollars. Then ask for the raise to bring you up above average.

      If that meeting doesn’t go well, polish your resume. Your health isn’t worth being underemployed (I should know- I waited too long to leave a toxic place and my health suffered for it).

    2. AnotherFed*

      In most places, asking for a raise at the 1 year mark is the right time. If your job is turning out to be more responsibility and required work output than the initial job description they gave, then you could have an argument for a raise sooner – maybe the 6 month point. But you definitely want to make sure that you have been there long enough to have a feel for how they handle raises – for example, if they do them as part of an annual performance review cycle, and you’re asking 4 months ahead of the cycle, you really want to be asking for advice on how to set yourself up for a good review a few months down the road.

  61. Anon today*

    I am starting back to work in a week after a six month absence due to an injury. I was back in the office half-time for a month during that time, but the injury was not fully healed and I had a relapse. I’ve been working from home (unpaid by the company! covered by our health care) about half time during this time as well.

    My boss’s boss, the CEO, is convinced that my relapse is my own fault. I had mentioned to him that I was doing X activity, and he believes that caused it. I told him that X was cleared by my doctors at the time, and he segued into ranting about how I should know better anyway and I should have gotten second opinions etc.

    It is a small office and we generally all eat lunch together. What are some polite ways I can fend off personal questions in the future? I tend to be very honest and open when asked questions so I need some quick go-tos.

    What do I do if he brings this up directly? As tempting as it would be to answer “What makes you think I would ever share anything about my personal life with you ever again” I do want to keep the peace. I know how vindictive he can be when crossed.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think this is where you use a strategy I use with my mom. Telling her anything other than “everything is going great!” invites criticism so I’m the most ridiculously upbeat person without sharing any details beyond the mundane.

      1. Anon today*

        I think that’s going to have to be my strategy – that and deflecting. Though I am so tempted to weave an entire web of lies about the risky sports I’m taking up now that I’m cleared for them… skydiving, mud motorbiking, stunt bike riding, hog wrestling….

    2. OhNo*

      If you’re interested in fending of personal questions in general, I’d suggest having an innocuous topic on hand that you can revert to whenever people ask you questions. TV shows or books are usually a pretty good bet – whenever someone asks what you’ve been doing lately or how you’ve been or whatever question you would usually answer honestly, just default to “I’m great! Been watching a lot of Law and Order lately – I forgot how addictive that show can be!” or something similar.

      If it’s specifically medical questions that you want to avoid (which sounds like it might be the case with that jerk CEO in particular), deflect and cite privacy or being sick of talking about it. “Oh, I prefer keep my medical info between me and my doctor,” or “Actually, I’m kind of sick of talking about my back problems. Everyone keeps asking the same questions! Can we talk about something else?” are good staples.

    3. fposte*

      In addition to the general deflections, you could try something like a wide-eyed “I know! That’s what I thought too, and when I told my doctor she laughed and laughed–apparently that got debunked years ago!”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I had a boss that did a similar thing. I finally settled on “I’m fine, I feel great!”, as I stood there very pale in the face and having had some weight loss. She knew that meant to stop talking about it.

  62. InterviewFreeZone*

    I’m leaving my job (hopefully soon!) due to unethical conduct and an unhealthy environment (literally, I have asthma and there’s no a/c or ventilation whatsoever and they refuse to do anything about it). I’ve been looking for 6 six months, the past 3 months pretty aggressively.

    I have a big project mid to late October that involves travel. I only have a 2 week notice period. I may be giving notice within the next 2 weeks. I’m scared of how this all is going to be received. If the environment were healthy or I had been treated with respect, I’d absolutely go above and beyond to work something out to see it all through. But the way things are now, if I get an offer, I plan to create an extremely thorough binder outlining any last steps that need to be done and also suggest they increase the retainer for a consultant who assists on the project so that they can execute any final steps.

    Am I doing something egregiously wrong by resigning before this project comes to fruition?

    2. Sascha*

      No, your health comes first. They should have plans in place in case people leave, for any reason and at any time. They will probably be unhappy, but it’s their problem, not yours.

    3. Artemesia*

      You tried to fix the problems in your workplace and they declined to help so blank them and the horse they rode in on. They are reaping the natural consequences of their inactions and poor management. You need to work on righteous indignation rather than feeling guilty. Practice saying when they fuss at you for leaving before the big project ‘I feel terrible having to leave, but since you were not able to address the building issues that were aggravating my asthma, I had no choice but to look for a job elsewhere. I have pulled together information about the project here, so that the next person responsible for it has what s/he needs to carry it through.’

      You owe them the best you can your final two weeks organizing information on the project for your successor. You don’t owe them your health or your feelings of guilt. Be matter of fact and slightly regretful when you give notice and reference your health. Don’t cringe or act guilty, because you aren’t. They are. Hope you get the new opportunity and can get out of there asap.

  63. OhNo*

    What are people’s opinions on changing out of gym clothes at the office?

    I work at a university, and since I’m only part-time I usually go to the gym before work. I don’t always have time to change before I leave the gym, so sometimes I change at work in the bathroom instead, but I’ve been getting some weird looks from my boss and coworkers lately. Generally, I’ll duck into my office to drop off my stuff and turn on my computer, then go change. Sometimes, if I see something really important in my email, I’ll work for ten-fifteen minutes before I change. I know a former coworker of mine changed out of biking clothes at work when she was here, but she usually arrived before any students were around, and since I start in the middle of the day, there are always students around when I come in.

    So, is that weird and/or unprofessional? Should I make a point to change before I get to work?

    1. puddin*

      If I looked at you ‘funny’ it would be out of guilt that I was not doing the same thing.

      Naw, its not unprofessional as long as you get to work early enough to be at your desk in your work clothes by the starting time. I would try to avoid answering the email in your work out clothes. Even something urgent can wait 15 minutes.

    2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      There is nothing wrong with changing from workout clothes at work but I would suggest that you don’t enter your office or general work area before you change. I think that might be the cause of the funny looks. I think it’s great when people workout before or after work and I think it’s fine if you see them in their workout gear but I do think it’s strange when they are doing any type of work in that gear unless it’s way after hours or on the weekends. If you were arriving before anyone else, I don’t think it would matter that you were dropping your stuff off in your office. Since you are arriving in the middle of the day when everyone else is already settled and in work mode, it might seem a little off or noticeable.

      Just as a funny story side note, I had a coworker who used to do this but she wore these hot pink compression socks when she worked out. So she would show up at the office and remain in her workout gear while she dropped her stuff off and fixed her coffee. The hot pink compression socks definitely made me smile but it was weird to see in the office.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      To be honest, I would look at you funny because you weren’t showering after the gym. I don’t have a problem with changing clothes at work, and biking to commute strikes me as a different thing, like a different level of intensity. If I were you, I’d drop off my stuff, go straight into the bathroom, freshen up and change.

    4. Dr. Doll*

      Oh, heavens no, this is not weird or unprofessional! Presumably you aren’t hogging up a bathroom stall for 20 minutes or splashing water all over the place and not wiping it up.

      Matter-of-factly changing into street clothes from gym clothes in a bathroom stall would not cause so much as a blink from anyone in any university I’ve ever been in.

      Don’t flinch, just do it and smile at people when they catch your eye.

    5. Artemesia*

      I think it is odd that you don’t have time at the gym but then can take time during your work time on the job. THAT and not the changing would bug me if you are working part time and some of that time is spent changing clothes. I’d get to the gym 15 minutes earlier and get showered and dressed there.

  64. JAL*

    How do you deal with complete inconsistency among higher ups when they all feel like their way is right ?

    I’m a quality assurance agent for a company that does 3rd party insurance surveys for major insurance companies. How my job works is we edit the cases that field reps do across the country and then we submit it. We get complaints frequently from the insurance agencies and their underwriters and it varies from underwriter to underwriter. Our job uses a lot of judgement and my numbers are affected if the underwriter’s judgement differs from mine. I’ve talked to my manager and she says just to follow their advice, but it’s so contradictory half the time.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can you ask each underwriter for a good list of guidelines that she follows? Then you can anticipate her responses better?

      I am not clear if the underwriters are contradicting themselves or if they are contradicting each other. Why not just ask them how you can better anticipate what they will say?

  65. Tiffany*

    My most recent job just ended last week after 3 months (1st post-grad job) and I’m concerned I may not get a great reference from them. My work was great, and if the reference is just based on that, it will be fine…but I’m in the process of filing a form with the IRS that will launch an investigation on their part into a incorrect classification of independent contractor. My former employer is aware of this, as I gave them 1 last chance to resolve the situation without involving the authorities and it didn’t work. I left the company because they eliminated my position and it wasn’t because of anything I did or didn’t do; however I imagine reporting them to the authorities doesn’t make them want to say anything good about me. I’m interviewing for new jobs though and I’m not sure what to say if they ask if they can talk with my former company. The job was at a really small tech startup, so there’s only a handful of people working there and we all worked closely together. My experience prior to this job is solid and my other references are excellent, so I would hope that 1 bad reference wouldn’t hurt me. However, I’d like to avoid that chance if at all possible. Is there anyway I can mitigate that risk?

    2. i've been there*

      I was working at a company and had two issues with them, first the whole independent contractor VS employee classification. I know you can’t do this now, but what I did (after making sure I was 100% correct) was made up a story and said that after talking to my financial advisor about my job, they informed me I’m most likely an employee according to IRS standards and should get that changed. I told HR and it happened within a week. When it came time for taxes, I owed a ton of money and I told the person preparing my taxes that I shouldn’t be paying this much and that I was improperly classified and switched over. My taxes were changed and I still worked for them for awhile, I’m not sure if the IRS ever contacted them about that or if I may get audited down the line but I didn’t feel bad about that because I was going to owe $500 more in taxes if I was an IC and I was hardly paid anything.

      The second issue I had, and this is where I felt like you, was when I talked to HR multiple times about how working more than 8 hours a day in California requires overtime, it’s not just 40 hours per week. I also researched the hell out of this because I didn’t want to look ignorant but when talking to HR they said they follow federal guidelines…well that’s nice and all but they have to follow California, they’re located in California…….I was extremely irritated about this and almost was going to send an email to HR after I quit requesting the money or I would raise the issue to a higher level but I decided against it, just because what if I want to return to the company (doubtful) or if some other issue arises later on, I didn’t want to burn bridges and it only ended up being $150 they owed me.

      Although I’m not gonna lie, I still have the draft of the email I had planned to send to HR sitting in my email haha

      1. Tiffany*

        There is no HR department for me to talk to and the person who handles business stuff is the person who put me in this mess to begin with. Everyone else in charge (there’s 3 of them total that run things) defaults to whatever the business guy says. They have a total of 6 employees and a ton of contractors. I didn’t quit either, was laid off, so I have no choice but to involve the authorities in order to get unemployment/not pay a ridiculous amount of taxes. I’m just trying to figure out how likely 1 bad reference is going to kill any job opportunities I have and if there’s a way when interviewing/talking with new companies that I can potentially be upfront about the potentially bad reference (if I even should).

          1. Tiffany*

            I don’t intend to, but I can’t stop a company from contacting them or asking why I’m not providing them as a reference. I’m not sure what to say if that situation happens.

            1. BRR*

              I remember this too, I thought it was the department of labor. Anyways, I would say that the company tried to involve you in illegal practices and that you did not want to participate.

  66. Annie*

    I recently moved to a new city and have just started looking for a job (stress!).

    I got an interview with a company I really wanted to work for and it was a nice conversation with two of the managers in that department. Unfortunately since it was my first interview for a while, nerves got the better of me and I didn’t do as well as I could have.

    In the rejection letter, the hiring manager actually provided quite detailed feedback (outline strengths/weaknesses) and then offered to have an informal chat with me about working in that city (she knew I just moved here).

    So now I’m wondering whether that’s something they just offer as a nicety (and won’t bother following through)? Should I take up that offer? If it’s genuine then I assume it’d be like an informational interview? Has there been advice here about how to make the most of something like that if I do end up having this meeting?

    2. De Minimis*

      I would take them up on it, I don’t think they would just offer to do that casually. I agree that you should treat it like an informational interview, though.

      1. Annie*

        Oh I’m definitely under no illusion that it’ll be anything more than that! I’m just wondering what I should ask that would help me for the future.

        1. fposte*

          Tons! “Do you have any advice about getting a toehold in [field] in [city]? What do you think the main new opportunities are likely to be? What challenges do you see the field as facing? You mentioned I could have been stronger in X, and I agree–do you think that [online course/community college/whatever] is a good way to get some experience?”

    3. Ad Astra*

      Oh, absolutely take her up on that. It sounds like she thought you were a strong candidate, just not the right person for this job, and she honestly wants to help. This is definitely not an offer someone would extend if they didn’t want to follow through with it.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Agreed. No one is offering to do that pro forma. They gave detailed appropriate feedback and offered to talk with you further? That means they thought you were a strong candidate, have something to offer AND that you’re worth going out of the way to assist. Treat it as an informational interview about other opportunities in the area. Good luck!

    4. MsM*

      Definitely take them up on it. If they don’t follow through, you’ve lost nothing. If they do – and like others, I don’t think they would if they didn’t genuinely think you had potential despite not being right for this – then yes, treat it like an informational interview. But I’d focus more on trying to get to know the community and identify other avenues you should explore than getting them to consider you in future. If it goes well, they’ll probably do that anyway.

  67. Shell*

    How do you judge whether your expectations for a given position are fair? (I am not the powers that be who can decide anything, I’m just curious.)

    What inspired this question: long ago, we used to have two receptionists at the front desk, which got absorbed into one position when our past receptionist, X, came on board. (I don’t think it was intentional; the powers that be were planning to hire a second person, but X handled the entire front desk herself with gusto and they just never hired a second person. Presumably that budget was then reassigned to other things.)

    X has since been promoted into our office manager. Her replacement, Y, is young (just graduated) and this is Y’s first full-time job. She’s been here a few months, said everything was fine…and then suddenly left this week for stress leave due to work. In short, she thinks work is extremely stressful and she just got overwhelmed. She didn’t convey this at all, it was “oh, it’s fine, it’s fine” and then boom, left for a week (with a doc’s note).

    I’m not the powers that be, so the arrangement of Y’s return/hiring extra people/etc. isn’t up to me. I’m just curious, for all the management folks on this blog: where do you draw the line of competence? Given past precedent, is it that Y isn’t quite as awesome because this is her first job out of school, and X’s precedent is entirely reasonable? Or is X just a rockstar of rockstars and it’s unfair to hold incomers to her standard? How would you make that judgement call?

    In our particular situation, there are several people to call on as help/relief on an as-needed basis when the front is swamped. Just that when X was up front, there was no need to have two people up there for the entire day. But I’m also interested in your stories in general, not necessarily advice to my office.

    1. MsM*

      I think it depends on whether the job really is a two-person job, or it had just historically been done by two people until X came along and challenged that assumption. Or maybe it’s a feasible workload for a seasoned receptionist, but some of the duties need to be parceled out to other people if you have an entry level person in the role. At the very least, someone needs to take a look at the job description while Y’s gone, and have a conversation with her when she gets back about exactly where the stressors are and whether those are things that can be adjusted or not.

    2. fposte*

      I think if she went first to stress leave before telling anybody at work she’s struggling, it means either 1) she wasn’t getting sufficient supervision or 2) she really was suffering from lack of seasoning and was just a bad hire. (There’s also 3), both.)

      In general, when Jane has killed at a role for three years, nobody who comes in can be expected to be third-year Jane in their first year; often Jane’s successor is perceived as failing for being merely equal to Jane when Jane started and not Jane when she finished.

      But overall, I don’t think there’s any way of determining “fair” or not–it’s whether you can get somebody who can do it without killing yourself to find them. If this person, with her seemingly limited credentials, was genuinely the best you could get, then the role may be underpaid, which is going to make it hard to get somebody who really wants ownership.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You can’t always know that your expectations for a position are fair. You can get better at guessing, but you really can’t be 100% certain. You can compare people over time and get a idea of what is average. If you have done the job yourself that really gives you a leg up on the answer.
      I don’t think I draw a line, I have more like a middle area similar to a band or a swath. One reason is that jobs change, more and more tasks get added and no one has figured out how to make more than 60 minutes go into an hour. Some people are fast at A but slow at B, then the next person might be fast at B and slow at A. If there is a lot of A and not much B, that second person is going to have a harder time. You can kind of tell when people are going to work out of it, they will get the job and be good at it. So those people I just tried to keep them calm and focused until they realized they had caught on.

      Overall, the people who are going to eventually catch on have a different attitude/approach than those who will never catch on. In your story here, I think that X was a rock star and I would not expect everyone to do that well. However, Y, needs to have a chat about asking for help and letting someone know when the work is piling up. It sounds like with the exception of this one thing, she was doing fine with the job. So I would be inclined to make a plan with her so she does not lose another week.

  68. LS*

    I need some advice on a lowball job offer.

    Background: The company is in my old hometown in a different state. They flew me out to interview for a position a few months ago but decided to hire someone else with more experience. I took a few months off from the job search after that to focus on preparing for an exam that would give me a major industry designation. I passed the exam and have continued my job search.

    A few days ago the firm contacted me with a different position that they feel I would be a good fit for. The position sounds interesting but has limited growth opportunities. I received the offer yesterday and it is VERY low – what I would consider entry-level. The salary is slightly higher than what I’m earning in a lower position, but the overall package is very disappointing. Expensive parking, expensive health insurance, nearly no time off, etc. This means that I would actually be earning less than what I make now where parking is free, health insurance is free, I work a 35 hour week, and have 12 days of PTO. I would need at LEAST 15% more pay and 3x the days off being offered. With multiple years of experience in the industry and my new certification, I’m expecting to earn more than I do currently.

    Is it worth trying to negotiate such a terrible offer? I’m a bit offended by it. Their justification is that they need me to prove myself before they can pay me more. Help please.

    1. Amber Rose*

      You can try to negotiate but it’s unlikely you’ll get everything on your list changed. Unless you’re desperate I’d say politely decline and keep looking.

    2. Chriama*

      Who determined this offer? The lower vacation and higher health insurance and parking is probably standard for all employees of a certain level, so I wouldn’t rancor at that fact. However, needing me to “prove myself before they can pay me more” is so passive-agressive that I might turn the job down just on principle.

      If you really want the job I would negotiate pay up front and get a plan for getting a raise within x months/years in writing (with actionable goals so it’s not left up to personal judgement).

    3. LS*

      Thanks for the advice. I needed validation that it’s ok to not attempt negotiation in this circumstance. I’m not desperate for a job and while it would be nice to move back home, I’m more concerned with finding a good fit – wherever that may be.

      I agree with you, Chriama, that the ‘prove’ statement is passive-aggressive. I’ve been working full time for 8 years so I’ve heard that line before.

      Is an email ok to decline the offer or do I need to call them? The offer letter was emailed to me if that makes a difference.

      2. Artemesia*

        I’d be inclined to email and use a line that indicates you don’t think it is not a good fit as you have been working for 8 years and were recently credentialed in advanced whatever and are not looking for an entry level position.

  69. Complicated Name Here*

    Has anyone ever changed their name partway through their career? I don’t mean surnames for people who get married and choose to change their name, but rather people who have ethnic-sounding names that they feel might be holding them back?

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      Do you mean your given name or surname? (I’ve never done either, but I do know people who have.)

  70. canigetthisoffmychest*

    So I’m new (technically a rehire) at my company, 2 months, and I don’t want to be an instigator. But my trainer is off training at another location so that meant someone else had to check my work, and she found an error and asked me who/why and I said, “Oh well, trainer said X, Y, not Z,” so she emailed my trainer and said, “newbie said you told her to do this wrong,” and cc’ed me in the email. And of course, now trainer has emailed me saying she never said that and we will go over this topic when she gets back. I emailed her back to say my notes just went over X and Y not Z and that I had added Z now and wished her a wonderful weekend, but I think anytime I ask her questions for more clarification or anything she thinks I’m being combative and argumentative.
    And I’m seriously not trying to be at all. I’m just trying to get answers/explanation so I can learn this job. I know I’m brand new and know nothing–that’s why I keep asking questions and for more detail. Because while I am confident trainer knows how to do her job, I have less faith in her training abilities. Her teaching so far has been full of assumptions made that I would ‘just know’ or ‘figure it out’ or ‘oh I thought someone else would’ve told you that already’. When I ask questions I get this much |…| of an answer when I really need |…………| to do the job right. So I keep asking. I don’t care if we aren’t friends, I just don’t want to be labeled as argumentative or an instigator of things just because I’m trying to learn the job! I think she makes all these assumptions b/c back in the day I worked for this company before in a different department and different job. The job I did before is like “step 1” of the process and now I’m in the job that does “Step 2.” But I think she fails to remember (though I’ve mentioned it) how much time has passed since I was in Step 1 and how much the company/processing has changed since then. (the main part of the job is completely different now).
    And when she’s correcting my stuff it’s getting annoying to me, because I’ve come a long long way in being able to handle criticism and I’ve definitely found out for me it’s all about HOW it’s delivered vs. what is actually being critiqued and she’s gotten into this passive aggressive, mom tone when she’s correcting my work. Like “I don’t know if you’re using your notes,” when they are clearly out on my desk.
    I say mom tone because it reminds me of my mom back in the childhood days when she would say something like “Paint this room with orange stripes” and I would do it and she would come back to inspect and say “This is WRONG!! Totally wrong. Wrong color. Wrong stripe pattern etc. and I know I said orange stripes but you were supposed to know I meant green plaid.”

    1. Not So NewReader*

      It’s tough not to hear our parent’s voice in other authority figures.

      Like you, I would over explain and then reexplain. It gets tiring for a trainer. I learned that using less words is better.
      For example: The email at the top of your post here. It might be better to try saying “Okay, Thanks.” and then sign your name. See, she said she would talk with you later about it. So trying to talk in email now, signals that you did not “hear” her say she would talk to you later. And I am not sure how she read the wonderful weekend thing- remember it is hard to hear tone of voice in email. She may have read that as sarcasm. I don’t think you meant it that way, but it’s good to be aware that sometimes things get misunderstood.

      As far as the notes on the desk beside you- uh, I am sorry to say this. But I have trained enough people that I know for a fact the notes are beside them and they do not use them. So no, don’t assume she knows you are using the notes. Likewise, when your turn to train someone comes up, do not assume they are using their notes just because the notes are beside them on the desk. Sad stuff, but true.

      People don’t train the way we need them to train, they train in the way they know how to train. So, yeah, there’s going to be some gaps. When I write training notes for myself I leave random blank spaces because I can almost always count on hearing, “oh, I forgot to tell you about this step. You have to do it between step number 25 and step number 26.” REALLLY? And it makes the learning curve incredibly long.

      I think I am picking up on some panic in your post. Take some deep breaths and just slow down a bit. You learned to do the other job you will get this one, too. Stop thinking about your mother- that is pulling you down. It’s not helping you with this job at all. Just like you want this lady to give you a fair shake, you can try to give her a fair shake, too. This means ditch the mom comparisons off some where, it’s not fair to her. When she sees changes in you, probably she will change a bit also.

      Is there resources that you can use to look things up, rather than asking your trainer all the time? See if you can line up some resources for yourself so that you can do more on your own and do it with confidence.
      Most of all be patient with YOU. Don’t expect to learn everything in one day/week/month. Focus on today and do your best today. Deal with tomorrow, when tomorrow gets here. You’ll be okay.

  71. US to UK*

    We are planning to move to the UK in 6 months. Spouse is an EU citizen, so I can work without needing sponsorship. I’m starting to put together a CV based on my recently-revised resume after Alison’s great input. So my question is: can any UK readers point me towards a good CV site that lists what needs to be on a CV vs resume (or give a quick rundown)? Everything I’ve seen is pointed toward recent graduates or has advice that is totally contradictory to AAM and makes me doubt anything they say.

    1. Short and Stout*

      Alison’s CV/resume advice has worked well for me in the UK. ;)

      My feeling is just to go with what is right for your field, as the norms between industries tend to differ more than the norms between USA/UK.

    2. Short and Stout*

      Care to share your most recently learned computer shortcut?

      Mine: I’m overpleased with myself for having leant to use fields properly in Word. Now I have form letter templates that fill themselves in with a macro that runs at the start. No more error-prone copy/pasting or multiple choice deleting.

    3. Tau*

      I’m in the UK and used Alison’s CV advice, with a few tweaks:

      – making it longer – one and a half to two pages was my impression, even for people early in their careers.
      – adding an interests/hobbies section at the end – I was told to do this by basically everyone I talked to…
      – didn’t do but probably should have done: adding my high school results. I say “probably should have” because I got asked about my high school results by nearly every job I applied to and several times got the impression they were puzzled I hadn’t put them on my CV.

      Unlike some other countries in Europe, my understanding is that you do NOT add a photo, your age, marital status or anything along those lines – same as in the US.

      I am no expert so take this with a large grain of salt, but it seemed to work pretty well – I got a high amount of callbacks and interviews out of it, at least. Can’t recommend a specific website since I don’t know any definitely trustworthy ones and was looking at the new-grad-focused information anyway!

    4. College Career Counselor*

      I have found that UK CVs can contain more information and/or things that a US resume would never have (marital/parental status, for example). This may have changed, however (let me know if I’m wrong, UK people!), and perhaps it depends on how much you want YOUR document to resemble a “native” document. In any event, the Going Global Resume/CV guide is pretty good, I think (and has examples of non-entry level documents). Your local library/career services office is likely to have a copy if you don’t want to buy one outright.

      1. Short and Stout*

        Hmm. Marital / parental status is as out of place in the UK as AAM discussions suggest to me that it is in the US.

        Advice from both the university careers services I got CV booklets from had 2 page CVs suggeted as the norm … but I never did this, and have consistently stuck to a 1 page CV. This strategy has consistenly resulted in interviews and praise from interviewers for having a short CV containing only salient info.

      2. Buttonhole*

        No you never put your marital and parental status on a CV in the UK. I only have name, email, mobile and nationality (due to work permit issues- so putting down that I am British and therefore can work in my own country) but not even my address. None of their business where I live. And no photo ever.

        1-2 page length, some people ask for 1-page CVs nowadays. And you only put your high school results if you are a recent graduate, ie aged 22-24 years. I am 32 and never put school results on.

    5. FatBigot*

      Be absolutely certain about your immigration status. Make no assumptions just because your spouse is an EU citizen. Check the exact wording on the Home Office website yourself.

      If you have a UK work permit and indefinite leave to remain, or EU rules exempt you from those requirements, then say so clearly. Sadly, it may also be worth checking what happens if you separate from your spouse.

      1. Marcela*

        Well, I am the wife of a British citizen, and while living in Spain, not only I had a work permit, but permanent residence too because of him. I know the UK has (had?) a “wife visa”, but as US to UK didn’t say her spouse is British, I don’t think that applies to her. The UK is not completely EU for several things, but my guess (after so many discussions about the free movement of european citizens) is that in this particular case, we wives only have to register with the government with our documents of marriage, to get work permits. We don’t have to get sponsored or apply for a limited visa.

        But yeah, FatBigot is right: check the Home Office website.

        1. Artemesia*

          My SIL is married to a British citizen and lives in East Anglia and it was a giant big hassle for her to even get a visa to live there much less work there; at one point my husband and his siblings had to actual sign documents that we would not all move to Britain and go on the dole. She did not automatically have the right to work when they married. I would not assume you can automatically work there without confirmation of that.

  72. KJR*

    I mustered up the courage to go to IT to have AAM unblocked. I came in one day last week, and he had blocked all blogs. My heart just sank, and I swear I broke into a cold sweat. Thank goodness I have it back.

    1. Windchime*

      This happened to me at work awhile back when they installed a new firewall and many blogs were blocked. I got them to unblock it because it was a career development blog. (They also had my favorite SQL blog blocked, boo……but this one and the SQL blog are now unblocked).

  73. Amber Rose*

    All right, I need some snappy comebacks to smart-ass coworkers.

    We have a department of guys who just have it in their nature to give everyone a hard time about everything. I should be clear, I don’t mind this. I find their antics moderately amusing and I feel lucky to have a relaxed, friendly bunch of coworkers.

    The problem is me. I’m not good at responding to teasing, so even if I find it fun, I can come across as cold or upset. The one or two times I’ve managed to respond, I got laughs and stuff and I want to fit in well here. (Does anyone else watch Regular Show? They’re like those cops who bust people’s chops.)

    How does one become witty and smooth?

    An example of the silliness:
    I have to a daily log where I check in and make sure nobody died or broke anything and the supervisors initial my report. The one group will pretend to close and lock the office door when they see me coming, or assign silly tasks I need to do first like “tell me how to spell [coworker]’s name” or “25 cent charge”.

    1. Malissa*

      Can you spell the coworker’s name D-O-N-K-E-Y?
      .25 charge? “I’ll gladly pay you Wednesday for access today”
      They lock the door, “Oh, so you are going to check the log for me this morning, thanks!”
      Another phrase to keep handy:
      Don’t make me unleash the flying monkeys

      Basically it takes practice.

    2. Chrissi*

      My type of humor is not the snappy, witty, one-liner kind and I’ve decided that’s ok. When I deal with this w/ friends or coworkers (which I’m fine w/, like you) I tend to have just a few go-to things to say that aren’t necessarily comebacks. Like when they close and lock the office door, I’d probably shake my head in a mockingly stern way and say “Not cool, man”, or for the assigned tasks say very primly “that’s not in my job description”. Of course, both of those you’d be joking, so you keep up the light-hearted tone, but you don’t have to feel bad for not being “witty enough” or whatever. Good luck! I also find that they more I know someone and more comfortable I am, the easier it gets to come up w/ a comeback because you kind of know what they’re going to say and have more of a routine, if that makes any sense.

    3. Gandalf the Nude*

      This is gonna sound so weird, but I learned sass from webcomics. They gave me a vast and constantly-updating supply of one-liners that most people wouldn’t recognize (until I started recommending comics to friends) while I worked on delivery. I just kind of internalized and mimicked the characters’ conversation styles (and, honestly, stole their jokes), and my own witticisms gradually formed until I found I was no longer borrowing ammunition but firing my own shots.

    4. fposte*

      You can also be the person who laughs at the quips and doesn’t quip back. I like the Miss Manners idea of assigning somebody to be your representative in that situation. “I never know what to say to that! Bob, speak for me here.” Or just revel in the awkwardness and say “Witty thing! Was that witty enough?”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I have said things pretending to be the person doing the joke.
      So with the office door joke, I would say “Quick lock the office door, Amber Rose is coming!” but I would say it in a funny voice. If you can get it out just as they are beginning to close the door that makes it funnier.

      The 25 cent charge can work into an on-going joke about you just putting it on your tab, and boy, that tab must be huge by now, etc.

      In general, I try to make my comebacks fairly neutral. I never make a joke involving a person. If I can I deflect it to some mundane thing or some thing that most people agree is funny. It takes a while to develop a sense of how you would like to handle jokes. I used to mull it over before falling asleep. (I also went over how to handle sarcastic remarks, too.) I would pick a joke that got by me and think about what ideas I had for comebacks. I did this for a while and it seemed to help me think on my feet better after a bit.

  74. Dr. Johnny Fever*

    So, weirdness this week –
    Long story short, I am a practitioner who is having a difference in opinion with two vendor consultants. When I got tired of them stonewalling me, I went to their sponsor. Their sponsor is now asking them to make changes, and this week they found out that those suggestions are the same ones I’ve been giving them that they’ve dismissed. They are pissed off.

    This week, the duo have been grabbing me at odd times to force their opinion on me. I tell them to talk to their sponsor. One of the two GOT IN MY FACE – we’re talking nostrils flared, eyes blazing, pointing – and he’s taller than me so it was meant to be physically intimidating. I stepped forward instead of backing off and the other guy separated us.

    PaciGuy asked me to see things from Angry Man’s POV and try to discuss things calmly. I told him to f’that. On a call with my boss the next day, Angry Guy verbally bullied and insulted me.

    Turns out, tons of witnesses to the physical part called my boss – he knew before I told him. Then he heard the bullying tone. He’s working on a resolution, I’m gob smacked as to the behavior, and still coming down from the rush. I have today off, and I told my boss when I come back, I want no contact at all with Angry Guy, and very little with PaciGuy who doesn’t seem to see the problem here.

    I’m just wondering how the hell I attract the crazy like this. It’s not the first time this has happened, but never to this level of hostility.

    1. Artemesia*

      I don’t understand your relationship with the ‘vendors’ — in my world a vendor can be dismissed for being a dick. Your boss needs to either change vendors or insist that the sponsor assign different people to this account — or perhaps I don’t understand at all. This kind of behavior should have led to terminating this relationship or firing this guy. There should be zero tolerance for intimidating behavior.

      I’ve told this before, but my organization makes it clear to contractors who work on the physical plant that sexual harassment, catcalling etc will result in terminating the contract. We had one workman who hung a scale on the doorknob of a new highly valued hire who is somewhat overweight — the company has a multi million dollar contract with the organization and was told that one more incident would terminate the contract. They pulled that work crew from the job and have been absolutely punctilious about their behavior since then.

      1. Dr. Johnny Fever*

        The sponsor is several levels higher in paygrade than me, so he’s the one who manages their contracts. He’s in another city, so PaciGuy and AngryGuy think he doesn’t know what’s going on.

        They don’t realize that the resolution my boss is working on *is* the termination of the contracts; he’s in the same city as the sponsor and updated him on everything, including the witness calls. I don’t know this for a fact, but I’m fairly positive. I’ve been questioning them for a while, and this behavior isn’t tolerated by my employer. I’ll be surprised, frankly, if I see either of them when I return next week. I hope.

  75. De Minimis*

    The job search continues…..

    Got a rejection letter for another government job earlier this week. It was one I wasn’t really crazy about [pay was low for this area, and it sounded like they demanded a lot of overtime–I would have gotten comp time for it, but not something I really want.] It’s still disheartening. I’ve started applying more out of my work specialty, I did get one response but their pay is low [after the various payroll taxes it would be less than unemployment] and it wouldn’t be helping my career. And in the end I think they too may have decided no.

    Have nothing solid on the horizon right now, and I think it may be a lot longer haul to my next job than I’d thought. These past few months I’ve never gone more than a week or two without an interview, but that seems to have stopped. Just have to keep plugging away. Still really troubled that I’m getting very little interest from private sector employers, even for positions that are more or less identical to my previous position.

    I don’t think I’m doing anything wrong, there’s just a lot of competition for jobs. May start volunteering, just for something to do. I’ve checked Idealist and elsewhere and it seems like most of the volunteer work available is the more general type that wouldn’t incorporate my professional skills, though.

    Have till the end of the year before my unemployment runs out, not sure what I’ll do then. I’m looking into H and R Block for next tax season but I am not going to pay $200 for a course. Allegedly they have an assessment where you can “test out” of the course but we’ll see. From what I’ve researched, working with them probably won’t pay as much as unemployment either. But I guess it would be better than nothing, and I could still look for a job while doing it since they generally don’t need people full time. It probably won’t do enough to pay the bills. I guess at that point I may start looking for work outside the region and do yet another long-distance separation from my spouse. Same crappy song, same lousy verse….

    1. Malissa*

      The job market is weird right now. Tax season should bring more opportunities at places other than H&R block. Hopefully something will work out soon for you.

        1. De Minimis*

          It’s different than before, though…the last time I went through unemployment there were just no jobs to even apply to. Now there are tons of jobs [different location helps, plus I have more experience] but I still can’t seem to break through.

          I don’t know if I can get work doing taxes other than HR Block, I know one recruiter told me I could pretty much forget about working in public accounting again since I’ve been out of it too long [haven’t worked with taxes in nearly seven years and wasn’t so great at it to begin with.]

          1. Anon for this one*

            Hey De Minimis, if you’d like to know more about Block, feel free to email me. I work there and love it and would be happy to share my experiences with you. You can email me at contrarygirl at the email of yahoo.

  76. Lunar*

    I need some intern advice. Our intern (who I supervise) started a few weeks ago. He is a few years older than me (I graduated with my bachelors just over a year ago and he is a graduate student (who is probably overqualified to be working on the project but seemed really interested and my boss liked him)) and has been behaving rather unprofessionally, but has been walking a line. He sends email that are a little too casual (adding extra letters, using abbreviations, etc). He has asked questions and talked about things that are a little off (he has asked how old I am, if I’m single, how long my last relationship was and has talked about how he drinks every night including 12 beers (!!) the night before he came in to the office. I feel like it lands in the realm of a little awkward, but co-workers do talk about their social lives/relationships (my only other co-workers are my bosses and much older so I don’t have a good perspective on this). I have been redirecting the conversations to work and responding to emails professionally, trying to set a good example. Do I need to say something or see if he takes the hint? I’m not sure if it has risen to that level yet, but I get weird vibes.

    Sorry if this is very disjointed and unclear – typing this from my phone.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      If you’re supervising, you need to be clear with him. Hints clearly aren’t working with him, as they usually don’t work with the office idiots.

      “Trevor, I’d like to talk to you about some concerns I have about how you present yourself in the office.” And then give some examples.

      But you should also be addressing these in the moment – a quick correction is better than having to have A Big Formal Talk. “Oh, those questions aren’t really work place appropriate.” “Oh, you know, probably don’t want to talk about how much you drank last night when you want to be taken seriously.” “Hi, this email is too casual – please use proper English.” Etc.

      It’s your job to show him the ropes – you’re not doing either of you any favors by dropping hints.

    2. LQ*

      You’ve tried hints, they didn’t work. Be direct. Everything Katie said above. I would say that even if you aren’t his supervisor you can still say that the questions aren’t appropriate for the workplace or that you really don’t want to know how much he drank.

      If you are and you do address his emails be very clear. Things like here’s how this email should look. And then show the changes.

  77. mno*

    I work with an idiot. I spend way too much time prepping myself for how to around it. ARGH. I’m trying to look at it as an exercise in patience, understanding, and how to work with COMPLETE MORONS.

    Whew! Thanks!

  78. Anon4this*

    I think uncovered the reason for all the interpersonal issues I’ve been having with my boss recently.

    Some background: I recently was promoted and negotiated about a 25% raise (commiserate with the average market rate for my new title) by leveraging an offer I received from another company. When I told my boss, he hemmed and hawed for a bit, told me he’d see what he could do to match the other offer and got a couple executives involved. By the end of the next day I had the promotion I’d been angling for, for over a year and a great raise to boot. I figured there’s no way they would pull all those strings so fast to keep me if they didn’t really want me, however my boss started acting very rude and confrontational with me in particular over the following couple of months. Never consistently, we are both very busy and there’s a lot going on, but he’d be very insulting and combative for a few days and then again a couple weeks later and then again a few weeks after that. I couldn’t make sense of it.

    I’ve just been included in some higher level meetings and found that managers at his level are offered an incentive by our company to “give budget back” at the end of the year. Meaning if he doesn’t give out any raises/bonuses and our department still meets its production goals, he gets a bonus of a certain percentage/value.

    Now it seems clear to me that he’s taken my “forcing” him to promote me personally, as it’s practically money out of his own pocket for me to get that raise. Furthermore, no one on the rest of the team has received raises (or promotions) this year. We received laughably paltry bonuses.

    Is this sort of practice by companies (to incentivize managers to give budgeted money back) typical in most businesses?

    Any suggestions on how to smooth things over with my boss moving forward? I really can’t help that he’s taken this personally but I find this response immature and inappropriate.

    1. Ad Astra*

      I know of a chain of gas stations with a similar policy, which in practice discourages managers from replacing broken stuff or buying a new mop when they need a new mop, and generally pushes them to cut corners wherever they can. It’s a bad way to run a gas station, but it seems like an even worse way to run an office.

      Regardless, his response is immature and inappropriate as you say. And, FWIW, it probably would have cost him more to replace you than to give you a raise.

    2. BRR*

      I’ve heard of it and it’s a shitty practice. It’s an incentive for managers to screw over their employees.

    3. Little Teapot*

      There was an episode of The Office about this – they needed a new printer & desk chairs but Michael wanted neither so he could keep the $600 bonus. I think when it takes away from staff / the office it’s so dodgy.

  81. lionelrichiesclayhead*

    Can anyone offer some insight into what might be included on a writing assessment for an interview? I have never had to complete a writing assessment before since I was previously in the financial field. I’m interviewing for a job in a new industry and it involves some technical writing. I’ve been googling but haven’t really found the information I’m looking for or that seems to fit.

    I asked the interviewer about it and she said it would involve proofing and correcting messaging and a couple tasks where I will document my answers. They are aware that I don’t have any formal technical writing experience so are they just making sure I can put cohesive sentences together?

    Any thoughts or tips would be appreciated!

    1. Short and Stout*

      I interviewed for technical writing jobs last year.

      Pre-interview tests for both companies involved writing instructions for simple processes, e.g. how to make a cell phone call, buy for someone with very little technical know how.

      I also got a timed test during a phone interview. I had to correct some instructions to follow a style guide, ie use second person and imperative tense, and rearrange the info into a more logical order.

      During interviews I was asked to mark up good / bad user experience features of a settings menu of a software package on a print out. I had figured this would come up and had practised.

      Good luck with your interview!

  82. Karowen*

    First sighting in the wild: Someone coming in to our building to follow up on a resume after having called and emailed as well.

    I know we’ve heard stories on here but this is the first time I’ve witnessed something like it! I almost want to follow the poor guy out to give him a link to this site.

    1. fposte*

      I had that once. I was so startled by it that I didn’t handle it smoothly. I wasn’t mean or anything but I should have let the poor guy, who was not US born, know that this wasn’t a good move.

  83. Anon for this*

    Ok. Regular commenter, going anon for a bit here. Yesterday was the worst. My husband got fired. He had only worked at that job for about 6 months and before that he was mostly unemployed for about 18 months. Two years ago he was fired from his previous job. I’ve been underemployed for about 18 months and constantly searching for a full-time gig, so when my husband got this job it seemed like things were looking up for us. I had been offered more hours at my job and we were going to be able to make ends meet. Then yesterday afternoon I got a call to tell me that my hours had been reduced again at my job. I’m just so sick of this. It’s been two straight years of one or both of us job hunting and never having enough money and I just want this nightmare to end. We’re fortunate that both of our sets of parents have been able to help us out financially, but I hate taking money from them. I just turned 29 and I would really love to be financially independent from our parents before I turn 30.

    1. A Girl Named Red*

      I’m sorry to hear you’re going through this. My fiance and I have been in a similar situation for awhile now, too. He just got let go yesterday– 3rd time in 12 months (none performance related, 2 downsizing and 1 bad culture fit). I thankfully am in a fairly stable FT job at the moment, but I was only making 1/3 of our combined income and we can’t live on my paycheck alone. And we literally JUST bought a house two weeks ago…and our wedding is in 6 months.

      It’s so stressful, that feeling you get when you thought it was ok to relax and take a breath and then suddenly everything bottoms out and you’re back to scrambling. The paranoia and fear is real.

      I hope everything works out for you and your husband and that this period soon becomes just a bad memory.

      2. Anon for this*

        Oh boy do I know that feeling. Thanks for commiserating. I hope things get better for you and your fiance soon!

    2. Ad Astra*

      I’m around the same age and just got out of a similarly miserable two-year period. For us, things got better when we relocated to a city where we had more personal and professional connections. Within 24 hours of moving, my husband went from underemployed to working a good-paying job in his field that he loves. Within 6 months, I went from unemployed to working a decent-paying job in my chosen field.

      Relocating might not be the right solution for you, but I’m chiming in here mostly to say that things really can get better. There were times when it looked like we had no way out, and now our situation is awesome. So don’t lose hope.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks for the message of hope Ad Astra! We live very close to husband’s family (which is one reason we would like to stay here), but relocating is definitely on our radar.

  84. Anon this Friday - not usually*

    I keep in touch with one of my first bosses from when I started working full time about 10 years ago. I moved on to another role 3 years ago and then so did he .

    Our next jobs both tanked and we were both fired. We commiserated a lot through that. Since then, though, I’ve done very well and landed on my feet. He has continued to struggle and has job hopped several times, which I never would have guessed he’d do from when I worked with him. I think if he worked under a strong leader, he’d do great. I think he’s been so desperate to move on from multiple previous jobs that he hasn’t screened well.

    Whatever the reason for his current troubles, I’m now in the field he is trying to get into. His encouragement is what prompted me to even look into this in the first place. I’ve tried everything to encourage him in his endeavor by telling him what has worked for my break into this field, from recommending AAM (and sending links to especially pertinent posts) to strongly encouraging him to join a networking group in this profession that has gotten me tons of connections.

    Instead of acting on any of that, he’s getting his masters (not vital in this field– there are some professional certifications that would be more valuable) and he seems so down about his stalled career every time I talk to him. He also keeps applying for things in this field and lists me as a reference. I don’t mind talking about what a great boss he was and what kind of environment I think he thrives in, but is that disingenuous since I don’t think he’s at the top of his game right now? I just want to shake him and say “I KNOW you’re discouraged, but this didn’t just happen to me–I’ve worked at it and your encouragement years ago is a big reason why!”

    How can I encourage him when I think the masters is a waste of time (he’s now only 8 months from finishing, so there’s no quitting that now) and I feel like he’s ignoring my good advice?

    1. fposte*

      90% of the time people are going to ignore your good advice, because they’re people :-). But it sounds like you’ve gotten a little emotionally invested in the outcome here in a way that I’d recommend dialing back, and also I’d consider finding a lower level of general encouragement that isn’t based on whether his actions are what you’d recommend. And in general, references are talking to what this person was like to work with, not what you think of their subsequent trajectory; it’s not disingenuous to fail to mention you don’t approve of his getting a master’s.

      It’s tough when people are down but not ready to find the way to up–I know we’ve probably all encountered the friend who’s miserable but won’t break up with the BF/GF, and this is kind of like that. So be kind, but I don’t think you have to accept venting as the sole communication, either.

  85. TheLazyB (UK)*

    I had my three month review today. It generally went well, but I failed to do something a month or so back. This wouldn’t have been an issue if I had JUST TOLD SOMEONE that I was struggling with it.

    I owned it; I knew I was messing up even as I was doing it. We’ve discussed the reasons; there were good reasons but none of them explain why I didn’t just tell someone.

    I am generally pleased with my progress but am quite gutted about this still. But pleased that while my line manager was clearly disappointed she was very understanding and will give me more support in future.

    So. Just need to be a rock star in general to ensure the shadow of it doesn’t last :-/

    1. Mockingjay*

      I have done it often. I put the cell phone or office phone on speaker. Then I take notes as usual. It’s no different, really, than you being in the conference room when someone dials into the speaker phone.

      The only difficulty is that it can be hard to determine who the speaker is. I work around that in the minutes by stressing the information or the team, not individual speakers. “The committee approved the chocolate teapot design.” “Production will be increased by 15% starting in July.”

    2. Charlotte Collins*

      Yes, but you need a clear agenda, and people need to understand that there might be pauses while someone takes notes. Also, it’s extremely useful if the minute taker is not the facilitator or presenter (unless it’s a really small group). If the phone lines allow for recording (our teleconference system does for a slight charge), this can be useful for going back to check notes. And a headset instead of a handset for the person taking notes, unless it’s on speaker phone. I’ve found it works best if everyone is on a separate phone, because the group dynamics work the same for everyone.

      If you are a quick typist with a noisy keyboard like me, I recommend putting the phone on mute for this. :)

    3. TheLazyB (UK)*

      That’s really helpful Mockingjay and Charlotte Collins, thank you! I might have to start doing so soon.

    4. Nanc*

      Record the call. If your conference system doesn’t have a recording function, use a mini recorder with a USB and phone adapter. Just go to Radio Shack or something like that and take your phone system manual and they can set you up.

      You can still take notes during the call, but if a lot is happening you can make a note of the time and go back and review that part of the call.

    5. ForNow*

      I regularly take minutes over the phone. Three to four meetings each quarter. It helps if know the people in the room (recognize voices etc.) But I find any more that I prefer it to my in person meetings.

  87. Meg Murry*

    Just to another “good job, you’re doing great and we’re so happy you are working here now” today from the big boss. And then a reminder that they value me, and if I need to use flex time like I am for an appointment that’s totally fine and

    Yay! And it totally made my day/weekend. Any managers reading this and feeling like you appreciate your staff – go tell them! Especially in light of the post this week about what to do if you lose your rockstar – go tell your rockstar (and your not quite rockstar but still good employees) you appreciate them, and even better ask them what you can do to make them happy.

  88. Mich*

    I’m looking for good webinars on improving my customer service skills via telephone. Are there any recommendations y’all have?

  89. Today's anon*

    For various reasons of space, one of my employees will need to be moved from an office next to mine that has windows to one on a different floor that does not have windows. Background: someone needs to move to an office on my floor because that’s where the whole operation they manage is (when they were hired, there was nothing set up yet), and that will displace someone else whose work depends on lugging trucks of books so it does not make sense to put them on another floor. He is a good employee and I am trying to figure out how to have this conversation in a way that will make him know we value him, and won’t generate resentment and I’d appreciate any suggestions you might have!

    1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      To me, this is just a normal part of working in an office. It’s really, really nice when you can get an office with windows but it’s not always possible and probably shouldn’t be expected unless you are at the top of the company org chart. I’m not sure if you are worried because of the specific person who is going to lose his office and ways he has reacted to news like this in the past? If it were me, sure I would be bummed because having an office with windows is awesome, but I wouldn’t take it as a sign that I wasn’t valued. In my last job I probably moved 4 times in 5 years and some locations were better than others.

      While I think you may be worrying about this a bit too much, I also think it’s really great that you are keeping your employees feelings in mind when things like this happen. I also realize that moving offices may not be the norm in your workplace like it was in mine and that’s why it might seem like a sticky subject. I think you just have to present it as purely logistics based and nothing to do with this employee personally.

      I hope everything goes smoothly!

    2. Ad Astra*

      I think it helps to explain the reason for the move, so he doesn’t think it’s some kind of demotion or punishment. Is there anything you can do to make the new, windowless office a little more desirable? A better chair? A nice lamp?

      If your office is one of those offices that brings in food a lot, could you have a sort of “going away” party for this employee and bring in treats for his last day on your floor?

    3. Artemesia*

      It is important to acknowledge that you wish there were more resources to provide him with a better office but that it is impossible. Be fairly matter of fact otherwise, don’t encourage him to feel abused about it and have him let you know if there are things you could do to make the move easier on him or resources to make the office work better. When I had a small windowless office once, I hung a poster of a Magritte painting that featured a window. I don’t know if that would be appropriate here, but there are a number of works of art that feature windows and do brighten up a windowless office.

      It is important to not act as if this is tragedy and worst office ever. It is unfortunately part of working that sometimes things aren’t perfect — but he has AN OFFICE not a cube and most people would kill for that.

  90. ACA*

    So in my new job, I am now being paid monthly (in my old job, I was paid weekly). It’ll be be an interesting month financially! Luckily, my husband gets paid biweekly, so at least we don’t have to go a whole month without income, but I’m still going to have to keep a closer eye on my spending habits this month.

    1. Could be anyone*

      If you have direct deposit consider having it go to a savings account and then having automatic transfers twice a month (say on the 5th and 20th) to the checking account to cover your budget items. This way it looks like regular pay check deposits.

      1. ACA*

        That’s an idea – right now we do the reverse (direct deposit into checking, auto-transfer into savings).

    2. Ad Astra*

      I get paid biweekly and my husband gets paid monthly, and we’ve found it works out pretty well. The advantage of getting paid monthly is that it matches up with all the bills you pay monthly, and your income is stable from one month to the next. The advantage to getting paid biweekly is that you never have to go more than 13 days without an infusion of cash. So having one of each is kind of the best of both worlds.

      1. ACA*

        Absolutely – once we’re into October it’ll be fine! It’s just that I won’t be getting paid again until September 30.

        1. Ad Astra*

          The transition is the hardest part. Just keep reminding yourself that you don’t really need XYZ impulse buy, and that you do need ABC but it can wait, etc. (I have to fight the urge to stock up on staple items because it doesn’t do me any favors when we’re temporarily short on cash.)

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      I switch a couple months ago with NewJob over to monthly, which they didn’t disclose during the hiring process, but it worked out okay. Between final paychecks from OldJob and vacation pay out it was easy to make the transition. But I freaked out about it initially until the hubby calmed me down.

        1. Ad Astra*

          Once you get through the first month, you’ll find this schedule immensely helpful to get your largest paycheck of the month right before you have to pay rent/mortgage, which is likely your largest bill of the month. When it was just me and my biweekly checks, I’d constantly be fretting when payday fell on the 6th or 7th of the month.

          (Of course, all of this is way easier if you’re making enough money to get by and living within your means, which wasn’t really the case for us until recently.)

    4. Jubilance*

      I loved being paid monthly – it actually made my budgeting easier! I paid all the bills at the first of the month, regardless of the due date. The rest of the $$$ is then mine to the other random things – groceries, gas, going out, etc. I find every other week pay to be the worst.

    5. matcha123*

      All of my full-time jobs (not in the US) have been monthly. Since the paycheck is basically the same amount each month, and all of my bills come out soon after I get paid, it makes it pretty easy to figure out how much I have to work with.

    6. BRR*

      Yeah the first month is rough. After that I tried to tough it out but probably should have done automatic transfers. It shouldn’t make a difference but for some it does.

  91. Lirael*

    Hi All,

    I do a lot of workshops/training (on various topics/resources) on a college campus as part of my job. I’m going to speak to a group of public health students soon and one of the topics I’ve been asked to address is job search resources. Now, I’m familiar with general sources of information (like this blog!), but I don’t have much knowledge of the public health job search landscape. Any public health people out there: What are some of your favorite field-specific job search search resources?

  92. Hermione*

    SO I had a phone interview this week! It’s for a place I really, really want to work. The position requires less experience/is on a lower rung than I would typically want, but the salary and benefits are INCREDIBLE (I’d be almost doubling my current salary), and they’re a university that likes clear lines of advancement/mobility, so I’d be easily able to work my way further up. Better commute, better administration, better reputation… I’m so excited.

    The phone screening seemed to go well. I was a little over-talkative, but she seemed to like me – laughed at the right times, clearly engaged with the conversation – and I had prepared answers to every! single! question! she asked, thanks to Alison’s guidance. I should know by next Friday whether I’ve been moved onto the in-person interviews.

    Anybody else have good news?!

    2. Cass*

      Probably depends on the type of work – if its collaborative, quiet definitely! If it’s something more technical or data entry, I wouldn’t be able to concentrate with a Chatty Cathy.

    3. Sascha*

      For me, definitely the STFU. We have a few of those in my department and they just walk around and talk to people all day. I’m probably missing the big picture, but I have to wonder – what do they DO as their actual job???

      1. Windchime*

        They don’t do anything, that’s the problem. We had a couple of people like this who literally stood around and yakked all day long. If their phones rang, they would answer it and take care of the problem but otherwise, they would just visit and talk all day long. One of them was a manager who would boast about the fact that he was running his day trading side business from his iPad in his office.

        When the cost-cutting layoffs came, those people were all let go, including the manager. It made me feel better to know that someone noticed (finally, after literally YEARS of this).

        So it’s the won’t STFU people who bother me. Our room is really quiet now; if it’s too quiet (which it never is for me), people can put on headphones and listen to music.

    4. MsM*

      STFU, definitely. I can fill in quiet with headphones. I can’t always filter out someone chattering at me.

    6. Lizzie*

      One who won’t STFU. I should know you’re in the office, but I shouldn’t actively be reminded that you’re there every second.

  94. grateful to have a job*

    Hopefully it’s not too late for some advice

    Recently my company did some reorganization with teams. In the process, I was moved to team which lost a lead member. I am not a lead. Besides the adjustments to new extended hours, a slightly larger workload, being on a new team with people who have worked together for year: it being hinted that the lead wants me to take on projects of the former lead–while the other team member, my equal performs general duties.
    I have had no problems being as flexible as possible and taking on some of the old lead responsibilities as I am capable, (In the past 2 weeks of being on the team, I’ve recreated files that the old lead deleted, set up a system to help streamline projects, offered my input on strategies that helps the work day go smoothly, I also utilize some strategies from my former team members to help my new team). I found it ironic that coming onto this team, from the outside my supervisor has always made it seem like a strong team as it’s his preferred team. But being on the inside it’s a entirely different picture. I know some of it has to do with the old team lead deleting stuff and the current lead, or other member not knowing a lot about technology like creating spreadsheets etc.

    But that isn’t the total problem, the problem is break time. The person, a lead, I replaced was working an 8 hour shift without taking a break (we’re all hourly nonexempt employee in a state that requires 30 minutes break to be given after 7.5 hours) When we sat down to discuss breaks and workload (which can be draining field especially since we deal with a population (ie elderly people in a nursing home) The break times suggested were either way early in the shift like 2 hours in, or at the end of the shift. We’re a team of 3, my and the lead day is 8 1/2 hours long while the 3 team member works 6 1/2 hours. The other team member my equal only takes 15 minute breaks instead of her full 30 minutes. When I asked her about why she isn’t taking her full 30 minutes (even though she is getting docked 30 min), she said she is scared that she will clock in late (in the past she said she has fallen asleep in her car) It really seems as if the unspoken rules is that you do not take a break and if you do take a break, you don’t take your full break and you take it at the end of the day.

    I have 2 concerns the first of course being break times and how do I express to the lead that I would like a full break at a reasonable time. For me taking a break at the end of the day with the workload, will burn me out past midday. My next concern is the assignment of workload. Can my lead assign me more work than my equal team member. I understand that he trust and knows that I’m more capable than my counterpart, but I don’t want to be an escape goat if something goes wrong with the project. For example my counterpart is being assigned duties like cleaning duties (as this person fears technology or being asked to do something computed-related), while I’m being assigned case management type things. Do I have a valid reasons for concern here?

    Yesterday I had a pow wow with the supervisor over her, and by the end of the day we all came up with a agreed upon set time. However, today as yesterday my lead was making difficult (kind of like causing hot fires in the office) for me to take my break at the agreed upon time. This seems like a no win situation. As I can tell she’s creating extra drama to keep me from going on break.

    1. fposte*

      On the break: if you’ve got the okay from the supervisor, let your co-worker fuss. “I know it’s a change, but I think it’s important to take these breaks and Lavinia has okayed this plan. I’ll be back in a half an hour–and of course I’m happy to cover you on your break.”

      It’s perfectly legal and perfectly common for different members of a team to be assigned different duties. The question is whether it’s something you want to do or not. I don’t think you’re any likelier to be a scapegoat just for doing more of the project–you can be a scapegoat wherever you are, and this way you have more agency and responsibility to help the project succeed. I’d be more alert for the job turning into something that should be paid at a higher level without the pay and title rising along with it. But right now if you’re liking the work and feeling like you’re good at it, it’s a good opportunity to prove your value, and I’d celebrate it rather than worrying about it.

  95. Jake*

    I’m reworking my resume and need help knowing if 2 pages is acceptable.

    In high school I worked at a car wash for 2 years (removed)

    I also worked as a janitor for 3 months (removed)

    In college I was in the reserve officer training corps for 2 years (reduced to a one liner)

    In college I was a materials testing undergraduate researcher for a year (reduced to a one liner)

    In college I worked an internship for a state constriction agency over a single summer (reduced to a one liner)

    After college I worked for a construction company for 2.5 years and held 3 different positions, which I currently list as subheadings under that company. All three positions are related, but each subsequent position increases in responsibility, i.e. design engineer>field engineer>lead field engineer.

    After that I’ve worked for 2 years for a different construction company in two unrelated roles, although the second role was due to a promotion. I currently have both rules under this company’s heading.

    I’m currently at one page, but I dropped a lot of my not very relavent previous experience off completely and significantly reduced my relevant in college experience. Is it appropriate to take the leap to a second page?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      So you’re 5 years out of college having worked five different positions? Keep it at one page. If your college experience is relevant to the position you’re applying to, you can keep one or two of those one-liners in, but your college experience should generally be left off (again, unless it’s directly relevant to the position you’re applying to).

      1. Jake*

        Yes, not due to job hopping though. Our industry is 100% project based, so changing roles in each project is fairly normal.

    2. Steve G*

      II agree with your edits, but think it needs to be one page, but don’t understand how it is taking more space. Maybe it is the formatting/fonts? I changed the margins on mine (and it says it won’t print to one page, but it does) and played around with the fonts and spacing between lines, etc. to get a lot of text on one page. Also, I’d cut off more entry level engineering tasks that any engineer would have known you were doing based on your progression or the level of the other work you did. For example, I cut out 90% of the meat from my Sales Coordinator description once I became an Acct Manager because it was obvious I knew how to cold call and coordinate contracts and lead meetings if I was an AM………

  96. W.*

    My job search seems to have hit a lull, all the cool jobs have petered out or not got back to me, and I haven’t been able to muster much passion in my cover letters for the positions I’m applying for. How do you convey passion when you’re applying to a recruiter and everything’s anonymous?
    Also I’m a little lost as to what to apply to now, just because of the number of no’s I’m getting. It’s knocked me a little bit. Anybody lost that sense of where they fit and/or knows how to get it back?

    1. T3k*

      I’m in the same boat (I swear, several jobs I applied to were taken down not even a week later and it felt like they were just teasing). I’d say take an honest look at your skills and what you’re applying for. Are there certain skills you see that keep popping up that you don’t have, that maybe you thought was a minor thing? If so, can you try learning those skills (if it’s something like web design, you can easily find many online classes or tutorials for free). You might be a solid candidate, but someone else out there may be just as solid with that little extra skill set.

      What keeps me going is thinking of how much my job sucks. Pretty much everything about it sucks (commute, pay, coworkers, boss, no benefits, etc) and for me that keeps the fire lit to keep searching, even when I feel like I want to give up.

  97. Cass*

    Had an internal interview for a big promotion, they said it would be around a month before they had a decision. (It will be a month next week from the final interview.) Any tips on following up if I don’t hear from them? Thinking it might be a little different because it’s an internal position.

  98. Coffee Ninja*

    I’m responsible for the QA/data collection piece of a recurring project at my company. The last project cycle went terribly and we lost some client contracts because of it. There were many, many issues with the project, but the data collection either didn’t exist or wasn’t up to par. Because of this, I got blamed by the Big Boss 100% for the loss of the contracts.

    We started another project cycle a few weeks ago, and the same problems with QA/data collection are recurring. People miss deadlines then ignore my text messages & emails. I go to the sites and retrain them (even sitting with them while they do they work, so I know they are able to do it) and then the next deadline comes and they won’t do it.

    We’ve examined the tasks & it’s people, not processes, but I have no supervisory authority over these employees. Their supervisor and our boss have been no help with enforcing deadlines. When I bring it up their response is “Well did you email them?” and “Can you train them again?” These employees have been with us for many, many project cycles and have been trained a million times. (And again, when I sit with them they show the ability to complete the work). How can I enforce the deadlines with no authority? And how can I make sure that I don’t take the fall when the project fails again?

  99. Art Education*

    I’m thinking about going back to school as an undergraduate to study art education. I would ideally use the degree to get into art therapy, but teaching art (preferably to high-school-aged students or older) is also a possibility I’d enjoy. Any thoughts from AAM readers who teach?

    1. MinB*

      Are you willing to relocate or does your current district have an unusually good art program? I have an art ed degree, too, and I wasn’t able to find a teaching position. Turns out the place I moved to for my husband’s career replaced all their elementary art teachers with volunteers so the job pool is about half the size I thought it would be. The best I could do was a semi-related nonprofit job (see my comment below).

      1. Art Education*

        Wow, sorry to hear that happened! That is what happened with my first degree. Tons of people with the same degree and the same or better qualifications, very few real job openings.

        I would be thrilled to relocate. There are good art programs here, too.

      2. Coffee Ninja*

        I work in the education field (counseling; not a teacher) and MinB is right. It depends on your specific area, but in my part of the country the non-core subjects have been hit hard by budget cuts. Art, music, languages, wood shop – basically anything not on the state test – is either reduced to part time or cut. So I would definitely factor that into your career planning. Talk to teachers in districts you’d be interested in working in, or check job postings (pretty much every district lists them on their website) to gauge the job market in your area.

        Art therapy will require a master’s, so 2 more years beyond the undergrad degree, plus hours for licensing (usually at least 1,000, which is about 9-12 months depending on how many clients you see).

    2. Ad Astra*

      I’m all for chasing your dreams, but I have to warn you that art teachers are really not in demand right now. Between continuous budget cuts and an increased emphasis on reading and math, fewer and fewer schools are hiring new art teachers. If your plan is to take out student loans to pay for this degree, my vote is don’t do it. If you would somehow be getting this education for free, then that at least reduces the risk you’d be taking.

      I know it sounds heartless, but I strongly consider thinking about ways you can pursue your passions that don’t necessarily coincide with a career path. The happiest people I know are those who picked a career that pays enough for them to pursue what they really love, like art or baking or whatever it is.

    3. asteramella*

      If you already have an undergraduate degree, another undergraduate degree is almost always not worth pursuing.

      1. Ad Astra*

        I have several friends/acquaintences from my own undergrad days who went back within a year or two of graduating to pursue a second bachelor’s. It always seemed like a dubious plan, though I know most or all of these particular friends got their first degrees without taking on any debt, which helps. Not sure who’s funding these second degrees.

    4. Not Myself*

      Oooh! My husband is months away from completing his art ed degree, and he’s in the student teaching phase. Plusses are that the classes are fun, the lessons tend to be engaging, and the kids seem to like the art teachers more than the regular teachers (no offense, guys). The cons are that yes, opportunities can be hard to find (but there’s also not a whole lot of competition, as everyone knows that it’s not terribly lucrative and there’s not a lot of open jobs out there, so it discourages people from trying), budgets can be tough, maintaining classroom order is harder than it would be for a normal teacher, and of course pay is low.

      Depending on which school you go to, an art education degree can get you qualified for a gallery or museum curator as well as an art teacher or possibly art therapist. The degree that my husband earned was actually very difficult to obtain – requirements were not very clear and standards were very high, and the curriculum is basically the same as double majoring in fine arts and education, but without the recognition for all the work the students do. Choose your program carefully, find out how many students graduate the program every year, and spend as much time volunteer teaching and building your portfolio of work and lesson plans as possible. Also, become qualified to teach as many other subjects as possible – it makes you more marketable, and helps alleviate the position shortage problem.

      Best of luck, and if you really want to do it, do it.

    5. YaH*

      For high school level, you need to be extremely highly qualified to find a position. First off, you’re talking one, maybe two art teachers that serve the whole school. Second, high schools want teachers who can teach AP art courses, so a master’s degree in art education would be the minimum considered. You might be able to get a position in elementary, maybe middle school.

      1. Stan*

        You don’t need a master’s degree to teach AP classes. The College Board doesn’t actually have any specific qualification for someone to teach an AP class. There are workshops and institutes that can really help (and many schools require that you do one before the first year teaching AP). My anecdotal experience is that a master’s degree is actually a detriment for electives teachers today. Districts don’t want to pay the extra that is required for someone with a master’s degree (especially someone who does a master’s with an initial teacher’s certificate).

    6. Art Education*

      Thank you all for the responses! I’m sorry I didn’t get back to you yesterday. Something came up in the afternoon. I’ll think about this a lot, and I’m looking at other ways to get involved in art, too.

  100. MinB*

    My small nonprofit workplace has had 70% turnover in the past year. We’re working on hiring my third manager in two years. We’re understaffed, underpaid, and under-benefited. To top it all off, our executive director has a tendency to pick up off-mission projects, refuse to listen to the rest of the staff’s concerns, and then refuse to help after she swears she’ll cover most of the workload. The ED is also really bad at the parts of her job that are directly related to the mission, like major donor fundraising, so it’s unlikely that she’s even bringing in enough funds to offset her larger salary.

    For the past few months, this has been going steadily downhill. Every time there’s turnover, the ED either doesn’t replace the person or cuts their hours, so as one of four remaining longer-term staff members, the workload has gone from unsustainable to crushing. I’ve been planning on starting a job hunt in October, once I wrap up two projects that will look great on a resume and would be very difficult to hand off to others. About a month ago I told a few staff members my plans (not the ED!), but one staff member (let’s call her Jane) reacted differently than I was expecting – she’s on the leadership team and is now doing her best to try to retain me.

    When I made my plans, I didn’t think anything could be done about the understaffing, lack of benefits and pay, or the awful ED, but thanks to Jane, the board has finally figured out something is wrong and sent out a staff survey on the ED. They’ve put her on an improvement plan, but the ED is not improving, so she may be on her way out. According to Jane, if we can convince the board to ditch the ED, there will also be more wiggle room in the budget for benefits, new staff, etc. She’s basically asked for my list of things it would take to get me to stay and is working on it.

    I love the org and the entire rest of the staff – everyone but the ED is a rock star and great to work with – plus I like the parts of my job that are not the ED’s off-mission projects, so I could focus on those more, too, if the ED left. The only problem is that this may take a few months and there are no guarantees. Thanks to my husband’s job, I’m not hurting for money, but I could easily make 10-20K more elsewhere, plus significantly more benefits, so there’s that, too. What would you do?

    1. Sascha*

      I’d probably start doing some job searching. Even if they get rid of the current ED, there could be other things that would still make the job unworkable – the new ED is bad, the board doesn’t approve raises or filling other positions, etc etc. You could start out slowly and see how things shake out in a few months, and then ramp it up as time goes on if you are not seeing any good changes.

      1. fposte*

        I’d also search so that you have some basis to negotiate for what you want where you are, and so that if you stay it’s a genuine choice rather than a default.

    2. RNPALS*

      I’m not a career expert, but I think I would stay for now. It sounds like you’ve managed to earn the respect of most of the leadership team, even if the ED is a pain to work for. Stay at the current company as long as you sense that they are actually taking steps to improve things (not just blowing smoke up your butt). But always keep your eye out for new opportunities.

    3. Lillian McGee*

      I’ll tell you what I did! Not exactly the same situation but similar… me with a crushing workload. Piddling salary. No funding to bring in someone to share the workload. I stayed because my ED was doing the same for me that Jane is doing for you. Giving me support and hope. There was a funding opportunity on the horizon that I had to hold out for, but it came and I got the additional staff I needed. It was a hard year, and I must have left every meeting I had with the ED in tears, but I held out because I loved the org and my coworkers.
      I hope it works out for you!

    4. Nonnymousie*

      Yikes. Do you work for the place I just left?

      Anyway, I’d say start looking in October as planned, but be really selective. Only apply to jobs you really want that are definitely going to put you in a better place financially and mentally. At the same time, come up with the list for Jane, but don’t lowball your expectations: if you need an X% raise, Y benefits, and Z projects given to a brand-new support person in order to be happy, be honest about that. If nothing else, it’ll help you when you’re negotiating elsewhere.

      1. MinB*

        Thanks everyone. This really helped. I think I was thinking of it as all or nothing, but I can look, focus on places that are likely to be better, and see if my current situation improves while I’m looking.

  101. Short and Stout*

    Care to share your most recently learned computer shortcut?

    Mine: I’m overpleased with myself for having leant to use fields properly in Word. Now I have form letter templates that fill themselves in with a macro that runs at the start. No more error-prone copy/pasting or multiple choice deleting.

    (Accidentally posted as a reply above :( )

    1. Sascha*

      I learned about Windows+L in the AAM post the other day about locking your computer because the OP’s coworkers kept getting on her facebook account. I love how quick it is! I used to do cntrl+shift+delete and then lock.

      1. Ad Astra*

        I learned that here too! We’re required to lock our computers every time we step away, so saving one or two seconds each time really adds up.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Me too! I work in a HIPAA environment and have to lock my computer whenever I step away from it. That trick improved my life in a small but meaningful way.

    2. The*

      If you’re autofilling in excel, when you’ve got the little reverse-L that you’d usually drag down? Double click it and it’ll fill to the end of your data.

      My line manager was thrilled

      1. TheLazyB (UK)*

        Aaaargh! Thrilled, but wishes I could have told her before she was autofilling thousands of rows last week :)

      2. Short and Stout*

        I didn’t know that! Yay a new trick.

        My own Excel moment last week came from holding down Ctrl while autofilling to get the SAME NUMBER rather than the sequnce. This took me too long to figure out.

    3. Tau*

      In Visual Studio, if you change a variable/method/class/whatnot name where it’s declared CTRL-period ENTER will automatically rename all references to it for you. Oh, and it took me embarrassingly long to work out that Shift+Tab deindents a line.

      …any other programmers out there?

      1. Windchime*

        Yep! My favorite one right now is to highlight a word in SSMS and then hit CTL + SHFT + U to make it all upper-case. I don’t always make all my keywords upper case while I’m programming and it’s pretty quick to do it this was after the fact.

    4. GigglyPuff*

      Not quite shortcuts, but figuring out how to save items in Word as a jpg, and when doing a lot of smartart, setting the default for that document so I don’t repeatedly have to change size, color, style, etc!

    5. TheLazyB (UK)*

      also, if you’re selecting data in excel, shift+control+arrow key will select to the end of the data (row/column). That cheered me up too.

    6. GigglyPuff*

      OH! Also finally figured out how in Outlook program to not display the first e-mail in the navigation pane. Was super excited when I figured that out. You click on “Today” in the list of emails, makes so your first e-mail doesn’t just sit there open. :)

    7. Natalie Anne Lanoville*

      These aren’t new, but I’ll share my fave ‘ninja-level’ Word shortcuts:

      – [CTRL]+[SHIFT]+[F9] will unlink all fields in a selection (turning them to plain text)
      – Holding down [ALT] while dragging will allow you to select a non-linear block of content
      – [CTRL]+[{ or }] will enlarge or shrink a variety of font sizes in a selection by one point at a time

  102. RNPALS*

    Throwing this question out there… Do internal interviews tend to be shorter than when one is interviewing from outside the company? I am a PRN (filling in as needed) nurse at a local retirement center. I’ve been there 18 months, and I generally get full time hours and OT due to picking up a lot of shifts. A full time position opened up on my favorite shift, so I wrote an awesome cover letter, edited my resume, and went for it. Interview with the administrator was this morning and seemed very short compared to other interviews I’ve had. I feel like I did a good job answering her questions and focusing on what I have been able to accomplish as a PRN nurse (who also fills in as a CNA or med aide when they need me). It just seemed like it went by very quickly, but trying not to stress about it.

      1. RNPALS*

        Thank you! They want an RN, but there’s an LVN also applying who already works there full time but wants to change to another shift. She spends most of her current shift playing with her cell phone, but she is very popular with the powers that be. However, they have a strong preference for an RN and the administrator did say she appreciates all of my hard work.

  103. The second to last airbender*

    I’m applying for a job at a nonprofit. My brother knows somebody who is chair of the young professionals groups for the organization has been a part of that group for 6 years. Is this way too far of a stretch to try and get my name mentioned in some way? I don’t expect a reference or anything, just maybe a, “Hey I’m close to the hiring manager and I’ll say you applied.” I recognize that this includes a sibling reference, somebody who has never met or worked with me, and a reference from a volunteer (is that bad or would it be bad if this person was a trustee? just curious).

    1. fposte*

      It seems a little distant to me as a reference (though I don’t know how young professionals groups operate–I mostly know them as a Chamber of Commerce thing). What I might do, though, is ask your brother if it would be okay to email Young Prof to ask for information about org culture and direction.

  104. cuppa*

    I just got the best resume ever.
    It includes height/weight, Myers-Briggs type, Life Summary (mostly where they have lived and how long), Chemistry (how they get along with others), Goals and Dreams (to work on an animated movie franchise that will remain nameless), what they want to do when they retire, and work experience (“nothing relevant”)

    6. Slimy Contractor*

      Oh, this has made my day. I’d almost be tempted to have this person come in for an interview, just to see what they’re like.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      It wasn’t an application for a job. It was an application for friendships. This person is looking for some more friends. She seems to have missed what type of movies she likes.

  105. Snork Maiden*

    I have a script request today.

    Currently I cover both desks in this small company while the owner is out on holidays. I try to keep on top of things but I’m effectively doing two jobs and because of how the company is set up, I am the one person all work has to pass through when they are out. (This is another beef, and I’m job-searching, but zero callbacks in 8 mos of applications aren’t making me feel optimistic.)

    Initially at this job assumed a lot of hats to help things go smoothly, but after the last few vacations the manager is unhappy with how I wore them – I let some projects drop while putting out fires. There’s just too much work to keep on top of things and while I give them a hand-off when they come back, I don’t receive one at the start of their vacation. How can I tell them I no longer want to answer phones, be in charge of quoting, scheduling, customer service, and shipping on top of my current responsibilities if I’m not getting any support or recognition from the top? (Yes, the owner handles all these – there are no admin assistants here.)

    I should have listened to a coworker who realized early on that taking on additional tasks means more opportunities to be punished, rather than avenues to success. I was trying to be helpful and eliminate roadblocks, but the “fun” parts of my job – and what I was hired to do – have been greatly reduced.

    1. asteramella*

      Rather than frame the discussion as “I don’t want to do this because I’m not getting support or recognition,” why not have the standard “I cannot do X, Y, and Z successfully in a timely manner, so what does it make sense for me to let go until you come back?” I your manager is unhappy with what projects you dropped, a conversation clarifying what’s priority vs. what’s non-urgent would be helpful too. You could also explicitly state that a hand-off with status notes and next steps for each project is essential to success the next time you’re covering.

      1. Snork Maiden*

        Oh man, I wish we got that sort of direction while the owner is here (asking for priorities is classified as “bothering” the manager – we should “just know”). The nature of the work is that there will be multiple new orders coming in while they are out. While I try to prioritize according to what I see them doing while they are here, it’s often very haphazard and I risk making the “wrong” decision.

        In the time that I was typing this, we had another miscommunication – I was disciplined for trying to finish a report that I thought wasn’t done while I was out yesterday – the manager thought I was talking about another report and cut me off by saying it’s finished. Unfortunately I did not confirm what report it was (for the same client) and now I’ve got to scramble and finish it. I think so many of the issues here can be resolved by me over-communicating everything but I’m a bit gun-shy after being repeatedly shot down.

        Maybe I just need to go back and read Alison’s comments on how to manage up a defensive manager! And also to aggressively loop in everything, even when it earns me a rebuke. I’m not sure how much longer I can do this.

        1. Snork Maiden*

          And thank you so much for your reply. I’ll incorporate it as much as I can. I’m struggling to get past the resentment and into a better headspace so I appreciate the sensible, reasoned approach you suggest.

    2. JMegan*

      Wow, that’s a lot! I would start by writing down every single thing you do, and how much time (approximately) you spend on it. Then write down all the things you are NOT doing but should be, and how much time you would normally spend on them. Take the two lists to your manager, and ask him to help you prioritize.

      He may tell you that your job from now on is A, B, C when you were originally hired to do X, Y, X, which of course isn’t ideal but at least you know what you’re working with. Or, he may tell you that A, B, C are not high priorities at all, and you should go back to doing X, Y, Z immediately. Or any one of a dozen other possibilities instead.

      Putting it in writing like that helps you show him how overworked you are, rather than just telling him. This is all assuming he’s a reasonable person, who just doesn’t realize the impact of everything that’s landing on your desk. If he’s unreasonable, then all bets are off, unfortunately, and all you can do is start job searching. Good luck.

      1. Snork Maiden*

        Great suggestion – I’ve also recently received indicators that I’m not adequately communicating how much work I have and what I get done. I should be proactive about it rather than be subject to covert surveillance which upsets me and doesn’t improve productivity.

  106. Audiophile*

    So no offers from the jobs I interviewed for last month. I was rejected for the communications job, which I’m not upset about. Surprisingly, the other org just disappeared after asking for references. They never even answered my follow up after stating they were “very interested”.

    I had two interviews this week. Hopefully one of them will result in an offer. One job is 15 mins away from my house. Would be straight Mon-Fri, no holidays or weekends.
    I started applying to jobs in Fl. I was surprised at h

    1. Audiophile*

      Posted before I meant to.

      Anyway, surprised at how many comms/social media jobs I found down there. So we’ll see.

    2. Could be anyone*

      Good luck with the search. My daughter’s job search led to a move to Florida this summer. About 17 hours from home. At least it was better than the job that was 26 hours away.

  107. LibrarianJ*

    What’s reasonable to ask as far as accommodations for allergies?

    I’ve found out in the last year that I’m actually quite allergic to dust mites (the problem emerged before I started working here, but I didn’t identify it until recently). Being a librarian, exposure to dust comes with the job, so there’s only so much I can do without starting a whole new career. However, the building I’m in is quite old and has a poor HVAC system, and over the summer there was a lot of construction in my office (including opening of ceilings) which aggravated my allergies. They’ve done some minor cleaning, but would it be completely out of line to push for a more thorough cleaning, including the carpet (and maybe the right to control the new A/C they installed which now doesn’t turn off)? Or should I be pulling out my mask and dust cloth from home and taking care of this myself?

    I’m hesitant to ask too much because I can’t really expect to be protected from dust, but I’m debating whether there’s a distinction between the dust I’d normally be exposed to and dust kicked up by seriously disruptive construction. It’s very uncomfortable (causes me to become extremely congested rather than just sneezing etc.), but not life threatening. I’m already on some medication and the allergist said next steps would be shots, but my financial situation and work schedule make those prohibitively complicated to do.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      It’s not really for you to decide what’s reasonable. It’s the company’s responsibility.

      The first thing you need to do is make a request for reasonable accommodation, including documentation from your doctor explaining the condition and how it’s limiting life activities, because it needs qualify as a disability (limiting breathing will suffice).

      Then you have a discussion with the office that handles RA and discuss various options. Cleaning and a new filter would probably be reasonable.

    2. cuppa*

      I think that’s pretty reasonable. You can also push to request an air test, but they can be expensive and they may or may not want to do that.

    3. Anon the Great and Powerful*

      I don’t think asking for a proper cleaning is unreasonable, especially after they’ve opened up the ceilings and made a mess of the place. They should be cleaning up after themselves without waiting for someone to complain about it.

    4. MinB*

      Full cleaning and better HVAC filters for sure. Maybe you could ask them to contribute to the shots and accommodate adjusting your schedule around them, too?

      1. Academic Librarian*

        So…became a librarian. For the first time in my life- allergies, asthma, got sick all the time (working with kids and the public) worked in an ancient Carnegie library.
        Although it is possible to ask for accommodations…it is still a library- dust books. I did get excused and a temporary transfer during construction. When I had an asthma attack at work, I was excused with pay and only then did they understand that this was life-threatening. Try to keep a record of symptoms and work conditions. Make sure you get a doctor’s note overtime you see someone. Also- others may be suffering silently and by speaking up you are helping those who aren’t confident or secure.

  108. Anony mouse*

    Hey guys, I’m starting my first “real” job next week and I had some questions about what’s appropriate to wear. I’ve been looking online and I see a lot of conflicting advice.

    Some context: the dress code is business casual, I live in a very hot humid climate, I work at a nonprofit, I am female.

    Can I wear skinny style pants? (Not jeans, just fitted trousers)
    How about sheer button downs with a tank top underneath?
    Sleeveless shirts?
    Button downs that have the top buttons unbuttoned with a tank top underneath? (A lot of tops I own do not button all the way up without gaping at the bust)

    Thanks in advance guys!

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Can I wear skinny style pants? (Not jeans, just fitted trousers) – No. Fitted, maybe. Tight, no.
      How about sheer button downs with a tank top underneath? – NO!
      Sleeveless shirts? – maybe, but not the first day. See what other people are wearing. Nothing strappy.
      Button downs that have the top buttons unbuttoned with a tank top underneath? (A lot of tops I own do not button all the way up without gaping at the bust) – Button down shirts or sweaters? Sweaters are ok. Shirts no.

      1. CollegeAdmin*

        Button downs that have the top buttons unbuttoned with a tank top underneath? (A lot of tops I own do not button all the way up without gaping at the bust) – Button down shirts or sweaters? Sweaters are ok. Shirts no.

        Uh oh…I do this all the time, as in every day. It’s about a 50/50 split between doing this with fitted cardigans and with loose-style button ups.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          clearly your experience differs. In my office that wouldn’t fly. It’s best in a new job to err on the side of caution until you see what other people are wearing.

          1. Ad Astra*

            I would also assume that skinny-style pants would be fine, though it really depends on exactly how form-fitting they are.

            Since we’re disagreeing, it’s a good idea to err on the side of caution at the beginning, as Katie suggests. Once you start your new job, go ahead and ask your manager what she thinks. If your manager is a man, you might consider asking a more senior female employee, since so many men have trouble with the vocabulary that comes with women’s clothing.

            — Sheer button-downs: No. (Something I would have thought was OK before I entered the working world, because hey, there’s a tank top under it.)
            — Sleeveless shirts: Probably, but bring a cardigan until you know. Tops should still cover your shoulders even if your arms are bare. Unfortunately, women with skinny or toned arms will sometimes get away with this look while those with bigger or flabby arms may not.
            — Button downs not all the way buttoned: Might be ok, but it’s sort of a casual look; I’d hold off until you have a better feel for it.

            When I worked for newspapers, the definition of “business casual” was so casual that all of these things would be allowed. At my current job, their now defunct “business casual” summer dress code was basically just business professional but without the ties (for men) and with cropped dress pants (for women). This is definitely a term that means different things in different offices, so keep that in mind.

      2. AnotherAlison*

        “See what other people are wearing.”

        Reserve basing your judgement on what other people are wearing until you know who they are. I saw someone in my office today in leggings with a waistband-length top on. The top was mostly appropriate, but I could not help thinking, “I can see your butt,” when I walked by her. Not to be an old fuddy duddy, but leggings with nothing covering your butt isn’t appropriate here. If you were basing your clothing picks off her, you would be way, way off.

        1. Nanc*

          Come sit next to me, fellow [sometimes] fuddy duddy! I am a life-long believer that leggings are not pants, they are footless tights and thus are meant to be worn under skirts, dresses, etc.

      3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Huh. Weird. I disagree on nearly all of these. (My experience is Midwest and East Coast nonprofits, with business casual dress codes.)

        Skinny pants: Yes, definitely. Not leggings, but skinny trousers? Very, very common and perfectly appropriate. The second picture here, for example: http://delightanddecorum.blogspot.com/2014/02/mastering-business-casual.html

        Sheer shirts with camis: Not until you get a feel for your office. In some offices, this could work if you made the rest of your outfit more conservative (a blazer or cardigan, etc.), but in many (most?) I wouldn’t wear a shirt that is intentionally sheer. If a shirt is just a little see-through (like many white button-downs), you’re on safer ground, but I’d still wait and see.

        Sleeveless shirts: Will be fine in many environments, but wait and see.

        Button downs with the top unbuttoned: This doesn’t usually look great, but I’d be surprised to find that it wasn’t “appropriate” anywhere I’ve worked. A better solution here is tailoring, or giving up on button downs (that’s the route I’ve taken).

        1. MinB*

          I’m in a West coast nonprofit with a business casual code and I agree with all of your assessments.

          We also don’t have AC and the building’s historic, so no modern insulation or anything. With the record heat we’ve been having, I started wearing dresses to work. I’ve never been one for dresses, but there’s a little more leeway with looking professional and sleeveless in a dress. 100% cotton if you can for breathability and I’d stick with something around knee length.

          1. Artemesia*

            Skirts or linen slacks are both cool and more professional than skinny pants although a very thin young person can sometimes get away with skinny pants that don’t look too much like tights. Sleeveless is a ‘no’ professionally unless your particular office has lots of people in high positions who do it.

      4. Anony mouse*

        It makes me sad that everyone is saying no to the sheer button-downs. I’m just really at a loss at what I could wear in this weather that will look professional and won’t give me heatstroke. I’m from the North East and I moved to the South about a week ago and I’m dying in shorts and tee shirts :(

        1. YaH*

          I’ve found that wearing a tank top with a lightweight shirt over it is significantly hotter-feeling than just a regular-thickness shirt. The tank is trapping all of the heat from your core against your body. I, too, live in the hot humid South.

          Also, consider putting a few swipes of antiperspirant in key non-armpit-areas.

    2. Jubilance*

      Can you ask your manager or a colleague? Did you make any observations about dress norms while you were interviewing? That might help.

      Everything you mentioned would be fine in my business casual office, but these things can vary so much. Maybe start on the more conservative end and then ask around/observe once you’ve been in role.

      1. Karowen*

        Definitely this – All of those fly in my office, but obviously not in Katie’s, so it really varies.

      2. Anony mouse*

        They seemed very casual when I came in for an interview. The woman who would be my supervisor wore a sheer tank top with an opaque camisole underneath, a maxi skirt, and sandals. But I still don’t know if that sort of thing is okay for me to wear, and I guess I don’t know the right way to ask.

    3. Lillian McGee*

      I would say yes to all those. I work for a nonprofit that is business casual (bordering on casual casual) and I’ve done all of them. When you wear a sleeveless top, bring a cardigan just in case.

      1. Ad Astra*

        And, if/when finances allow, buying custom-tailored shirts or buying bigger shirts off the rack and having them taken in.

        I find that most button-ups are too tight in the bust if they fit my waist, even though most T-shirts, dresses, swimsuits, going-out tops, etc., are too loose in the bust if they fit my waist. (My waist and bust measurements are probably within two inches of one another, which makes me a less common body type.) It’s just something about button-ups.

      2. Judy*

        I now have started putting snaps in between buttons on my button down shirts. I got tired of putting safety pins in every day I wore them. I usually put 3 snaps on a shirt.

          1. MinB*

            They also sell double sided fashion tape for a temporary gaping button fix. You can pick it up at Ulta or another makeup store.

    5. Sparrow*

      Check out the blogs Outfit Posts and Wardrobe Oxygen for some examples of business casual wear. Corporette and Cap Hill Style may also be helpful.

      Some of these are a know your office situation, so you can also see how other people in the office dress.

      Skinny style pants – I think these would be fine.

      Sheer button downs – I would pass on these.

      Sleeveless – Probably a know your office situation, but I think they are okay. Make sure there are no bra straps showing. A lot of offices are cold, so you may want to pair it with a cardigan.

      Button down with tank top – I think this is fine, but maybe consider getting more knit tops if button downs don’t fit properly. I find these are the most difficult type of top to fit properly. I’m a 32D, and if top fits my bust sometimes it is loose everywhere else.

    6. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      This is going to be one of those really obnoxious answers where I say that it all depends on your office. As much as I want to give you a yes or no based on my own preferences or my own office experience, I can’t fairly do that. I can tell you that you should go in your first few days or week in more conservative fare and see what other women in the office are wearing. Do you know if your office has any specific dress code other than just business casual? At my old office we were not allowed to go sleeveless but many offices allow it. And suits with the more fitted/modern trousers were fine but they could not be tight like leggings.

      I would just focus on looking “nice” your first few days and you’ll quickly understand what is appropriate before the end of your first week. If possible, avoid anything on your “not sure” list until you’ve gotten a better feel.

    7. JMegan*

      It very much depends on your office, so I would wait and see what other people are wearing before you buy anything new. And definitely plan for fall clothes, rather than summer. As much as I hate to admit it, the warm weather really is almost over at this point! (In the northern hemisphere, of course.)

      Also, 100% agree with what Sparrow said above – many offices are cold, especially for women, who tend to wear lighter-weight fabrics in the summer than men do. Most people end up with an “office cardigan” of some sort, that lives at work and matches pretty much everything, so you can throw it on whenever your office is on the chilly side.

      2. Anony mouse*

        The average temperature of my city in January is 65 degrees so the warm weather isn’t going anywhere for me. Also, my office is very warm and stuffy.

    8. MsM*

      I’d hold off on the sheer button-downs and have some kind of layering on hand for the sleeveless shirts if necessary until you see what everyone else is wearing (also because if they’re anything like my last few offices, the main conference room will always be freezing), but otherwise, it’ll probably be fine.

    9. Observer*

      How about sheer button downs with a tank top underneath? NO!

      Button downs that have the top buttons unbuttoned with a tank top underneath? (A lot of tops I own do not button all the way up without gaping at the bust) NO. At best it’s not businesslike, even at a casual level. When it’s because you’re busting out of the shirt, that’s a really bad idea, even in a “plain” casual environment. For that type of situation, I’d say leave the shirt untucked and all the way open over your tank. But that is a very casual look, so don’t do that unless others are very, very causally dressed.

  109. Amber Rose*

    On a separate note from the above, although it is not my fault and nobody seems upset at me or anything, I feel really, really awful about how much time I’ve missed for medical issues. And it’s probably only going to get worse as we still haven’t pinned down the issue. I need a CT and bone scan next, and if that turns up nothing (or even if it turns up the problem my doctor thinks it is) I’ll need surgery after.

    I want to ask my boss if there’s anything I can do to make up for it but I’m too scared. With oil and gas tanking, I’m at the top of the list of “most disposable employees.”

    I have the worst luck I swear.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      If you have a decent boss, definitely talk with him. Let him know what to expect, even if the best you can do is say, “I’m not sure what is going to happen here.” You could ask if you could work a few extra hours a week to try to make up some of the time. Say it in the context of,”Everyone has been so supportive, I would like to give something back.”

      Then, tell your doctor that you cannot be taking endless amounts of time off. Tell him, it would be good if you can give your boss some idea of time frame. Maybe he can consolidate some appointments so you do not need to take so much time.

      I hope this process speeds up for you and I hope it turns out to be a very small thing that is easy to deal with.

  110. AnotherAlison*

    I will preface this with saying I know this is a little petty in the scheme of things, but here’s it goes:

    I’m losing my office next week. Several of us with the same title are going to cubes. We’re the only ones of this title in our entire division to be assigned to cubes. They’ve made a clear delineation within our work group, so right now it’s “fair” based on titles within our group, but if I was to get a promotion, there would be no office to go to, or if someone new gets hired at a more senior level, there’s no office for that person. Note that it’s not that there are no offices anywhere (I’m sitting in one right now), but they want to keep our group in one quadrant of one floor, and there are only ~7 offices in that quadrant and they need ~14. Offices and status are a big deal around here, so while I’m trying to be chill about this, it really is getting to me.

    To add insult to injury, our jobs are also getting a slight restructure, TBD. They haven’t rolled it out yet, but it’s going to include more selling. For me, that’s not a plus. So, on one hand, we’re kicking you back three job levels on preferential seating, but on the other hand, do more work.

    Hmmm. Happy Friday.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Follow-up: I got my new location assignment, and while it is nice if you are not looking at it from a privacy POV, it completely sucks from a privacy POV. Looks like my productivity is going to go through the roof.

  111. Spout*

    My company (Teapot Services Inc.) just got acquired by another, larger company (Chocolate Corp.). It was just announced a few days ago, so no one really knows details aside from 1) we’ll be taking on Chocolate Corp.’s identity and 2) it will be happening in the next couple months. Has anyone gone through this before? Anything I should be doing/asking/worrying about?

    1. Steve G*

      I went through this this winter. There eventually was a streamlining/reorg of positions which gutted my job of anything that felt meaningful or high-level and so I left. I would have cared less and started job hunting sooner. Instead I did the old “work hard and impress them” thing, which I learned wasn’t good because there is no point impressing people that aren’t going to have a pertinent job to give you. But this is just IME….

    2. Artemesia*

      My entire department got eliminated in a merger taking the great workers with the not as great.

      If you are about to get slammed nothing you can do but I would reflect on coming up with a way to describe what you do and in particular your achievements, much like you would do for a resume. You want to be able to describe your work if asked in a way that focuses on your contributions not just your tasks.

      And mergers and acquisitions are always a moment to get cracking on preparing your materials for a job search because even if you don’t lose your job, you may find yourself in a new situation that you don’t much care for. Those who move fast often get the available jobs in an area.

  112. Anon Accountant*

    As promised the “alternate” phrase used by my unfriendly coworker “Jane”. She said “I could just choke his chicken!” and yelled this from her desk. I said “Oh I think you meant you could just “wring his neck”. She said “well that’s the same thing”.

    Another coworker told her “that phrase “choke his chicken” doesn’t mean wring his neck. She insists it does and we are wrong. For those that don’t know what that means do NOT google at work. It means to tug on a man’s manly body parts.

    We asked one of the partners to please have a conversation with her and ask her to refrain from using that phrase and she was told to NOT say that in front of clients. So far she hasn’t. Another coworker asked her to google search at home what that phrase meant but we don’t think she has because she uses that phrase when she is angry with a male employee. Never a female employee- just a male employee. So maybe she did google search?

    1. Ad Astra*

      I um… is it possible that at one time those did mean the same thing and “coke his chicken” has taken on its more scandalous meaning somewhat recently?

      Actually, I bet she heard both of these phrases as a child or a teen and equated them in her head. Interpreted literally, they do mean almost the same thing.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        I’m not sure. I’m 32 and have always known “choke the chicken” to have a dirty meaning.

    2. Kerry (Like the County in Ireland)*

      You need to tell her bluntly that it’s a reference to male masturbation and that if she needs to verify it, look it up on Urban Dictionary at home. And you don’t want to hear her use it in the office at all. Practice the blunt and dry tone if you need to. Because not being direct with her isn’t working.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        I wish our bosses would tell her to knock it off. If I was her manager I’d tell her to never say it again. I’m just a peer.

        If you ask her to do something differently she won’t do it if she doesn’t want to. Example: she was told by a partner to stop asking staff “what supplies do we need” and instead look in the supply closet and see what we are low on, out of, etc. She still asks everyone what is needed and won’t check the supply closet.
        When we run out of something that should have been ordered she yells “someone should’ve told me!” We think she has something incriminating on them that they haven’t fired her. She’s been employed almost 20 years since our old company was bought out 2 years ago.

        She disregards office policies and does her own thing. If it were up to me she would have been fired a long time ago.

        1. Not So Sunny*

          With that description, it seems her use of “Choke the chicken” is the least of her transgressions.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      I would be SO tempted to dryly ask her “Oh, do you normally have the urge to masturbate men who anger you?” >:)

    5. ConstructionHR*

      I’ma thinking it’s a mixed metaphor coupled with a spoonerism coupled and a Dunning-Kruger delivery, but that right there is funny. I don’t care who you are.

  113. Aloe Vera*

    This is a light-hearted work question. I am pretty sure my department is throwing me a surprise bridal shower next week, and they are doing it under the guise of an “important” department update meeting. Normally for this type of meeting, I am very involved in setting it up but wasn’t for this one – which is my clue that it’s not what it seems.

    Should I go along with it and not ask any questions? Or should I give my boss a hard time and say we need to start prepping ASAP? ;)

    1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      You should go along with it but how hilarious would it be if you really stuck it to your boss and scheduled planning meetings? Really hilarious. But in the interest of letting your coworkers have all the fun, I say sit tight and be totally surprised :)

    2. RNPALS*

      Act as if you don’t suspect a thing! Behave the same way you would if you had to start prepping for any other meeting and see how they react :) And congratulations!!!

    3. The Other Dawn*

      My inclination would be to mess with the boss and start planning the meeting. You know, really giving the boss a hard time. But the right thing to do would be to just play along and not ask any questions. There is a tiny chance that it’s not a shower and it really is a meeting, but, because they think you’re busy with wedding planning, they’re trying to take some stress off of you.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      I could go both ways. Part of me says give boss a hard time but not too hard. Because it would be funny for you but the other part says to not and let them have their surprise. My “surprise” baby shower wasn’t because a couple people forgot to lock down their calendars. So I totally knew and there was zero opsec when they were trying to keep me out of a specific room while they set up. I found it hysterical. And gave them a hard time afterwards.

  114. Calling Fundraisers*

    Hi fundraisers: I have some development experience and am looking for my first frontiline fundraising position. Goal is to work for a university or academic medical center. Have the luxury of choosing a frontline director position for a national health nonprofit or for an associate director position at a university for $20K less per year. I’d prefer the university, but the pay and title difference is so large. I am thinking of taking the director experience at the national nonprofit and trying to move on to the university in a few years but am fearful it won’t be the “right” experience. The national nonprofit job is flexible and the organization is very reputable but the job seems to call for pure hustle, which is not what I was used to in my last position at an academic medical center — if that makes any sense. Would the frontline experience at this national nonprofit be valuable to an academic institution down the road? Or would it be better to join the university now and get to work on rising through the ranks there? I am thinking of getting the director experience at the national nonprofit and trying to move on later but am afraid it won’t be the “right” experience for a university. I am newly single parent, so the salary difference matters quite a bit. Thanks so much.

    1. MsM*

      If you know higher ed is eventually where you want to end up, I’d take the associate position. The more senior the role, the more they tend to want people who have experience in that kind of setting. If the nonprofit is small to medium-sized despite being national, that might also wind up working against you. And while it’s an important skill to cultivate and a major coup if you can bring in some big gifts, if you don’t have any frontline experience at all, are you really sure you want whatever adjustment issues you might have to take place at the director level?

        1. MsM*

          Then that probably makes switching over to a university-sized organization less of an issue. Though again, I would really ask yourself whether hustling is something you’re comfortable with and feel you can hit the ground running on, or if you need more time and opportunity to cultivate those skills in a less high-stakes capacity.

    2. LucyVP*

      It sounds like you may want to keep with the university position, but have you really dialed down into the benefits offered by the two options. If the university offers a pension program for example it may be better to get into that program as soon as possible.

    3. Bluebell*

      CF – How successful do you think you’ll be at the director post? will there be any colleagues/fundraising professionals for you to learn from in that office? Do they have enough resources? Do you know the story about who the last director was there, and how did his/her career path advance. and also – who will you be working with? I think those are all questions you want to keep in mind so you can evaluate both options. If you can spend 2-3 years at the director position, raise significant money and enjoy it, you’d be well set to go to your next position. Also, if the university is very large, they may have lots of room for movement and promotions. Good luck!

      1. BRR*

        I was going to say something similar. I would place significant weight as to what your abilities are and what is needed for the role. If you take a position and are in charge of raising $X by yourself but don’t know how to do it and nobody will train you, you’re going to be SOL.

        I’m also not sure why you prefer to work for a university. I would not sacrifice everything for the organization’s mission (as long as you’re ok with both). You want to know things like commute, coworkers, manager, dollar goals, meeting goals, solicitation goals, portfolio size, amount of travel needed, work culture, office turnover (which can be high in development), and fiscal health of the organizations.

        Also fundraising experience is pretty transferable as long as you’re successful.

  115. Anon Accountant*

    So last week I moved offices from up near the front near reception where Jane the receptionist was always leaving her desk and I’d have to assist visitors and walk out to grab the phone from the switchboard when it was ringing and she wasn’t answering it. Well I’d moved my desk phone also but it needed the wires reconnected Monday so it’d work properly.

    I wasn’t able to get a call Monday morning transferred to me and Jane told 1 of the partners I “wasn’t taking any calls”. I overheard and said “Yes and that’s because my phone isn’t working since I moved Friday”. Our phones are now internet-based and a cable needed attached or something so it wasn’t major.

    I was off work for almost 2 months on sick leave and discovered while Jane was filling in for my quarterly payroll reports she didn’t prepare reports for 2 of my clients!! She does have training and 10+ years of preparing these so the company had no issues with she doing these while I was off. She never mentioned it and I only discovered it when running reports for 1 company to add to their files then checked and discovered she didn’t prepare those for another company.

    I told my boss so who knows what will happen from here but I’m livid.

    1. Artemesia*

      What is it with businesses having receptionists who don’t receive? Are they all providing under desk services to the boss?

  116. Bagworm*

    I didn’t get on here too early so this will probably get buried and it’s not a question so that’s ok but in the many years I’ve been reading this blog (and recommending it to anyone who will listen), I don’t think I’ve written to just say thank you to Alison and the whole community. I learn so much here. Case in point, I attended a Communication Skills training this week and got a “gold star” because when we were doing some exercises, I used the things I have learned here. The instructor was very impressed. (Now if I can just manage to actually practice the things I’ve learned. :-))

      1. Weekday Warrior*

        Me too and to add that I’m in the process of reference checking using question suggestions from the Management Center which Alison recommended. One referee said “these are great questions!” :)

    2. BRR*

      I’ve had this happen too several times. I think there needs to be an AAM certification (ironic since certificates don’t get a ton of positive press on here).

  117. esra*

    I had an interview this week with possibly the best place. They have an office puppy.
    Free candy.
    Free Starbucks.
    Amazing employee reviews.

    Hire me, you super nice jerks!

    4. Ad Astra*

      Those perks are just nice enough to entice me without making me think they’re trying to trick me into practically living at the office. What breed is this puppy?

    5. Rock*

      I’ve always wanted to know about office animals: does someone have, like, custody of the animal and just bring it in every day and make sure it gets trained?
      Or is it *actually* the office puppy?
      o_O;

      1. Bagworm*

        One of the businesses I work with has an office pup. She’s even got her own framed photo on their wall of staff and is listed on their org chart. She does generally stay at the office during the week. Almost every workstation had an extra chair with a little blanket or bed and dog toys. On the weekends (and sometimes during the week), staff can “check her out” and take her home for a few days. It’s apparently a very popular option.

        I know that not everyone is comfortable with animal(s) in the office so I’m sure they inform job applicants but I think I would love it.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I’m sorry, but… maybe it kind of works for them, but as a dog owner and lover, this just sounds so cruel to the dog! In the long run, I mean. A young dog might manage ok, but once she gets older? A dog needs consistency and her own “people”. She’s a doggy, not a library book! What if she gets sick overnight? Heck, what if she gets sick during the day? Who is responsible for her vet bills, her food, her daily walks?

          We bring dogs to the office, and I’m very lucky that my co-workers are willing to keep an eye on my buddy if I have to run an errand or go upstairs, but he’s my responsibility. Someone in my office once, with a straight face, suggested that we get an office dog and leave him or her there overnight. Uh, no.

          1. esra*

            This office dog belongs to one of the execs. From what they say, the dog mostly just likes to sleep in the guy’s office and go for walks.

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              That’s the kind of office puppy I can get behind. :) After all, I have a few myself. My co-worker’s dog spent several hours on my lap the other day.

        2. Bagworm*

          You’re absolutely right that would be unkind to the dog. As esra says, it is technically the owner’s. It just has a bunch of extra people loving it.

  118. That Lib Tech*

    So in the past week and a half I’ve gone from feeling I’m never leaving my current job, to having a brand new job at a university and I’m starting part time next week until my 2 weeks are up here. There are a bunch of extenuating circumstances on why it went so quickly, but I know them all (well, most) and its a healthy work environment (plus I know people working there/have worked there who would be honest about things) so I’m not concerned. It’s just wild to think I’m saying goodbye to my first “real” workplace in my career and moving on. Eep!

  119. Jennifer*

    We are moving offices next week. I have been….shall we say, STRONGLY DISCOURAGED from decorating. This makes me angry. I will have the plainest, ugliest cube so I can please others and “be professional.”
    I’m supposed to be “excited” about this move. I am not excited. There are a few good things about it, but also some real pain in the ass things, and now this. Though I pretty much suspected it was coming since the supervisor above mine is very concerned with how things “look.” Oh yeah, and how “comfortable” everyone else. I can’t tell you how uncomfortable I feel most of the time having every little damn thing nitpicked, like “we refuse to move your personal items” and now this.

    In other news, a friend of mine is interviewing for jobs in Silicon Valley. Here’s some of the ridiculous crap they are putting her through:

    Company A:
    (a) gave her 24 hours to put a presentation together, with a very vague subject that they refused to answer questions about, then they complained that it was general and not specific.
    (b) it’s a marketing job and they were shocked that she asked if there was a marketing budget. Of course there’s no marketing budget! Why the heck would there be such a thing?! They were irritated at her for asking.
    (c) This week: “oh yeah, we completely don’t remember anyone’s presentations, so we’re making you give them all over again.” WTF?! I think they are just throwing their power and weight around just for fun at this point.
    (d) They apparently also have no idea how one accounts for their time/time cards in this job.
    I know she needs the job, but honestly, I think she’ll be happier not getting it from this place. I am amazed they are still in business.

    Company B has phone support service 24/7 and:
    (a) asked her to figure out for them how to have meetings for the entire staff when some of them have to be answering the phones the entire time (which sounds to me like a terrible way for those people to try to double process what is going on)
    (b) they want to know how to have “morale events” for the entire staff while again, a bunch of them are trapped answering phones.

    Having been trapped answering phones myself, I could give advice on this (hint: DO IT ALL ONLINE), but that’s still really shitty to do to employees. I don’t think she’ll really love this job either.

  120. Buu*

    I’ve been invited to what I guess you’d call a networking coffee with someone in my industry with whom I respect , I don’t know if there’s specific agenda so I have no idea what to expect. Any advice?

    1. fposte*

      Congrats! Those are good things to be invited to. Come prepared with your own agenda (well, things you’d like to ask) in case there’s nothing prepared on their end.

      1. SL*

        It might also help to do a quick bit of news-reading beforehand to see what’s being said about your industry and the direction where it’s headed! It’ll help you formulate some questions to ask.

  121. SL*

    Missed the work thread last week, but… I had my 90-day review and it went very, very well. I got glowing praise and general sentiments of “keep up the good work and it’ll all be fine,” so yay! I was also told that I should keep an eye out for trainings in tech skills (that I’m really interested in on a personal level too!) because it’ll come in handy within the organization soon.

    My review was on the same day that the letter about a 90-day review going badly was posted, so I’m super relieved, although I had nothing to worry about and my manager is the most reasonable person I’ve ever worked with.

  122. EvilQueenRegina*

    Quiet time is finally about to come to an end (a lot of my work is school related and the schools in England have just finished their six week long summer holiday. Wondering how long it will take me to miss the quiet time once I’m busy again, probably a day. Especially since our Defence Against the Dark Arts job looks like it’s about to become vacant once again (the new team are giving Neal lots of not very discreet hints before his interview so we all suspect they have him earmarked for it). At this point we have had so much bad luck with that post (Zelena: ten weeks on payroll but only physically there for six and spent the rest of the time taking holiday she wasn’t entitled to; Elsa: quit after two days) that I now doubt that position will be filled.

    /ramble

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        Haha, the Defence Against the Dark Arts job got its name because of the sheer number of people who quit it very abruptly after only a short time!

        As for the OUAT thing, since my own name comes from OUAT then I tend to use OUAT names in my examples as far as possible (unless, as has happened, a name is too close to someone’s real name). Not quite sure why I bothered wasting one on my first love Daniel though since I haven’t had anything to do with that idiot in 12 years (not that that stopped my family Googling him last Christmas, add that to the list of reasons why I won’t be too upset if the relatives decide not to come this year). So Ruby, Kathryn, Lily, Emma, Neal, Aurora, Belle and Mary Margaret all got assigned to specific people. (And Maleficent, Cruella and Ursula are the three witches I sat with at Exjob!)

  123. Weird_Titles*

    Does anyone have any advice for what to do on your resume when you work for an organization that seriously deflates titles? For example, second tier managers with several direct reports are called “team leads”. Directors/Department Heads are called “process leaders”. Pretty much everyone but the C-suite has vastly underflated titles. My role is more akin to a senior analyst IV or V type position where you are the systems expert/consultant … but they call us Teapot Spot – Analyst II.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      It’s been advised on here before to put your official title and the appropriate industry equivalent in parentheses, but I don’t remember if should be done like this:

      Teapot Process Lead (Director of Teapots)
      or
      Teapot Process Lead (company equivalent for Director of Teapots)

    2. Ad Astra*

      This is where your superbly written bullet points can help. Make sure to include how many people you manage and any other measurable or duties that would clue a potential employer in to how senior the role is. Are you in an industry where the job titles are widely standardized, or are there lots of ways to do it and your company’s way just isn’t doing you any favors?

  124. Tau*

    In case anyone who gave me advice last week (I was fretting about my job telling me I might have to take medical leave for a planned surgery as holiday), an update! I talked to senior HR person this week and am muchly relieved.

    My understanding post-meeting is that the issue is that I’m travelling to have the procedure done in another country and, says HR, there (would? might?) be a time between “Tau is fit to work again” and “Tau is fit to fly back to the UK” which I would *not* be able to get as medical leave and would have to take either unpaid or as holiday. The actual surgery recovery time is not in question and I will at minimum be getting SSP for that once it kicks in.

    I do see the point in this! Obviously I’d prefer not to take any of it as holiday and am now wondering about whether “could theoretically drag myself into work somehow, unable to travel” is a state where you *should* be expected to be considered fit to work, but if it comes down to it I’m okay with sacrificing some of my holiday and/or pay as long as I can get the actual recovery time as sick leave.

    So (hopefully) that’s that!

    1. fposte*

      Well, I’m glad that that’s improved from the original, but I hope we’re only talking about a day or so on the personal holiday, because that seems mean.

    2. W.*

      I don’t think I totally understand, if you can’t fly, you can’t work – so that shouldn’t really be in question, and where your surgery takes place is really none of their business. Still annoyed on your behalf, even though this seems better than before,

      1. Tau*

        Yeah, the reason I’m happy about this is because it’s a lot better than it was before and it looks as if I no longer have to worry about whether I’ll be able to visit my family for Christmas this year, not because it’s actually great behaviour on their part. :/

        I am wondering if the issue is… I suppose it would be possible to have a health issue where flying *specifically* is contraindicated for a while after you’re fit in all other ways, and in that case I can see the issue. Because otherwise… my understanding of sick notes isn’t that the doctor refuses to write you one the instant you can somehow drag yourself into the office without landing in hospital? As you say, it seems like if I’m not fit to travel, that is a health issue that means I should probably not be at work either.

        I admit I’m hoping to avoid the whole thing as, having spoken to both my doctors, I’m quite certain they’ll sign me off sick as long as necessary.

  125. Gwen*

    I’m in an awkward position where I love my job, love my coworkers, but don’t love my paycheck. I don’t think I’m being paid appropriately for my role, and I don’t know how long I can manage on this salary. I want to talk to my boss about it, but I’m not sure what to say/what to do if the answer is, as I suspect it will be, “sorry, it’s not in the budget.” (It is a nonprofit, but not a charity.)

    1. nep*

      I’m in precisely the same position — love job, love co-workers, pay stinks.
      Were I ever to approach management about it, response would be the same — not in the budget.
      Are you looking elsewhere / putting feelers out there?

      1. Gwen*

        I’ve kept my eyes open, but nothing’s jumped out at me so far. I’d be leaving a lot behind, so I’m nervous, but I also can’t sustain this forever :(

  126. EvilQueenRegina*

    Something I keep forgetting to ask about: anyone ever seen really weird out of office messages after someone leaves? I saw one recently that was something like “I have now retired to Pluto. For all enquiries about chocolate teapot production, please contact Wakeen. If you have more intergalactic means of communication please call me on (number) or apollowarbucks at provider dot com”. A bit strange message to convey to professionals! P.S. the names and chocolate teapot reference are the only things I changed.

    1. AnotherFed*

      I’ve seen things like that, but usually only when someone forgot to lock their computer and they got pranked – they aren’t actually gone (or at most are gone for the weekend).

  127. Pre-Employment Excel Logic Test*

    I’m interviewing for a marketing role that requires a lot of dechiphering analytics to assess business needs and successes. As part of the interview process I was given a timed ‘excel logic test.’ I’ve never taken anything like this. I thought it would be a test of how well I knew functions in excel (how to create tables, formatting, IF/Then formulas, etc.). I couldn’t have been more wrong! It was basically a half completed P&L statement where I had to fill in the values based on the numbers that were proved. All of the existing numbers were input as whole numbers, not formulas so I had to rack my memory of HS Algebra and figure out equations and percentages. Below the table there were questions based on the chart that provided an opportunity to actually analyze the data and provide suggestions accordingly. I feel like the analysis part went well but the P&L table/math portion….not so much! I think some of my numbers may have been off. My question is how are these tests scored? If my math is off but my analysis makes sense based on the numbers given could I still pass? I mean….I work in marketing/creative services so I don’t have to spend my days with numbers haha. You can teach anyone a formula. It’s how you evaluate data that’s important. Any advice/feedback would be great!

    1. Dynamic Beige*

      I have nothing useful to offer except that your user name would make a good album name for an electronic music group, possibly German, like Kraftwerk.

  128. Rachel*

    Does anyone know why a company would require you to provide your college GPA on an application for a non-entry-level position? I ran across this a couple weeks ago. This wasn’t your standard boilerplate everything-but-the-kitchen-sink Taleo application where there’s a field listed in the education section for it. This was in a list of additional questions specific to that position. The job requirements include 5-7 years of experience, so it’s definitely not an entry-level position.

    I don’t even remember my college GPA! Guess I won’t be applying to that one. (Too bad, because the job sounded great.)

    1. JMegan*

      Why? I have no idea. But can you put 9.9 or 0.0 or some obviously made-up number just to get it past the application system?

      1. Rock*

        You can also just call your college and ask. :)
        It sounds like a silly thing for something that’s not looking predominantly for recent graduates, though. But then again I had to provide a High School GPA *and* a College GPA for one particular application. So the crazy is out there…

  129. Anoning it Up*

    I had an awful meeting with my managers recently where they aired some expected, but not really accurate, concerns about my work. None of it was about my work product, but it was mostly about how much I was working. Basically, “You do good work but you’re not doing enough of it. Please work more.” The thing is, I’ve been killing myself recently and really can’t fit in any more work. I’m exempt, don’t get overtime, but I’m routinely working 70+ hour weeks. I just can’t do more without compromising my health, safety, and happiness. I’m in a business where over-work is the norm, but even by the high standard for over-work of my industry, I’m already doing quite a lot.

    Regardless, they apparently expect more, and told me so pretty clearly. They also said “We’re not going to fire you, but you should start looking for another job.” Here is my question: I’ve been looking. For a while. Nothing has bit yet. I’m obviously going to ramp up my search, but at what point do I quit this gig without something else lined up? in the meantime, do I go on doing what I’m doing? Do I try to kill myself to get more work done to make them happy? I have no idea. Please help!

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Do you get as much done as your colleagues? Is their problem that you don’t put in enough hours, or that you don’t get enough done in those hours?

      I’m not sure it makes a difference, but if it were me it would help me to understand what was going on. But I think the resolution in either case is the same: this isn’t a good fit, and you should be looking for a new job. I’m sorry.. :(

      1. Anoning it Up*

        It’s hard to measure my output against my colleagues because we’re on different projects doing different types of work. But my industry bills by the hour, and its true that I’m not billing as much as some of them. That said, I am still billing an incredible amount. In most places, even places with outrageous expectations, it would be enough, but I guess its just not here. My colleagues are just apparently just willing to bill much more, or bill unethically (double billing, billing for time that isn’t work, etc), I’m not sure which.

        1. Stone Cold Arching*

          Fuck them! (The bosses) Don’t work any more, if anything scale it back a bit. And boo on them.

    2. Argh!*

      Just keep doing what you’re doing, and document it. Even if they fire you and claim it was for cause, you’d have the documentation to take to court to get severence. If you haven’t gotten any firm goals that you have to measure up to (“more” is not specific enough) they are clearly being unfair to you. If you send an e-mail reviewing the conversation and asking for specific numbers, that will also be documentation that you tried. If they give you a ridiculous number, then you have documentation that they were ridiculously unfair… Document, document, document!

      1. Elysian*

        I’m not sure documenting will really be all that much help here. I’m in the US, so there’s really nothing in the world I can do or not do to get severance – that’s all at the whim on my employer, I would never be entitled to it. And even if they fire me without cause, I’m at-will, so that’s just the breaks.

  130. Rebecca*

    I submitted this question to Alison, but thought I’d post it here as well since I just found out I have to do this on Tuesday!

    I have been asked to be on an interview panel for a couple of openings in my department. I am a senior/lead, but don’t have any direct reports. The candidates (all internal, at least at this point) would not report to me, but I would be helping train them in their new role.

    I have been a manager before and came from a culture where we did behavioral interviewing. So I know the kinds of questions that I would ask a potential direct report. But what kinds of questions should I ask a potential colleague?

    1. Graciosa*

      You may be overthinking this. You want to find out whether the person can do the work and is a good fit for the team. This is true regardless of whether you’re interviewing candidates as a hiring manager, a prospective colleague, or an HR representative. If you know what you would ask as a hiring manager, you should have plenty of questions to ask (even after eliminating anything that is clearly within the hiring manager’s purview, such as salary and start date).

      1. Rebecca*

        Haha, I am a known over-thinker! I think you’re right, I’m going through some of the usual behavioral interview questions and most of them make sense for what I want to know about a colleage. Do they have good time management skills, adaptable, etc.

    2. Kyrielle*

      When I was interviewing at $OldJob, I asked similar questions to what I would have asked for someone reporting to me. They never were, but the focus was still on how they’d fit into the team and what skills they’d bring to the job.

  131. Dynamic Beige*

    This situation came up in a private group, but I thought I would post a synopsis of it here for comment.

    Claudius is a teapot maker at Teapots International. For 5 years, he has been the main point of contact between TeapotsIntInc and a company they subcontract specialised tasks out to, Spoutwerks. Claudius and Marcus at Spoutwerks are somewhat close, almost a year ago, he confessed to Marcus that he had been diagnosed with a health condition that could get very serious. Marcus — the one who posted about the situation — did not reveal how this topic of conversation came about. To the best of my knowledge, these companies are both in the US.

    Marcus was expressing concern that he has noticed Claudius is not on his game any more. He forgets pieces of conversations they’ve had, requests documents that have already been sent and the day he posted his problem, Claudius had sent an angry e-mail to Marcus’ partner about some missing documents, basically saying the people at Spoutwerks were incompetent. The documents he was missing had been sent three weeks’ previously and he had acknowledged receipt of them.

    Marcus also said that Claudius had admitted more recently that he was missing time/would “wake up” in places and not know how he got there. In other words, his condition has gotten serious and the fool is getting behind the wheel of a car. But, Marcus did not mention Claudius’ boss or manager. He only wanted to know how to fix the communication problems going forward.

    So, how would you handle a situation where a long-term client of yours is dropping the ball and blaming it on you? (and no, this is honestly not a client of mine, this is someone else’s very real problem)

    1. Polka Dot Bird*

      If they’ve got a good working relationship, can Marcus have a direct talk to Claudius about his behaviour and his concerns? Otherwise, lots of documenting, follow up before deadlines, and talk to your boss.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        AFAIK, Marcus is the boss/in partnership, it’s his firm, so there isn’t really someone in higher authority at his workplace to appeal to.

        My thing was, Marcus should try to find some way to speak with Claudius about the overall pattern, ask if he has followed up with his doctor, express general concern. Since Marcus doesn’t know if Claudius has divulged this medical issue to his boss/manager, he can’t really “out” that if he wants to retain the relationship. I said if Claudius blows him off, call his boss and just express concerns about what’s going on, how out of character it is for Claudius to be acting this way.

        But the private group is full of dudes and they were all “move all communications to $OnlineService where they can be seen and accessed by all!” Uh… there’s a real human being here with a health problem that could result in very serious consequences not just for him, but for everyone who is out there driving on the same roads as he is (not alcoholism). I would think that’s somewhat more important than who yelled at whom for some documents that weren’t missing. If Marcus has noticed it, surely at Claudius’ workplace they have noticed similar issues. Claudius may be in denial or stubborn or still thinking he can “tough it out” but it’s affecting his work now and that means he’s deteriorated to a point where medical intervention is no longer optional (not a tumour). He needs help, and he may need a push to get it. It would be better if that push was concern for his welfare rather than being fired, IMO.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I’d use the next event as an inroad to a larger conversation. So that might look like this:

      “Claudius, we sent you that paperwork three weeks ago and you signed the return receipt. [Sudden change in direction for the conversation, using a softer tone.] Claudius, are you okay? This isn’t like you. I am worried.”

      The idea here is to talk gently no matter what. If he escalates and growls, “I am fine!” Then your friend can go with, “Well, I remember our earlier conversation. I try not to say too much, but I want you to know I care and I am concerned about you.” Your friend should keep his voice even and gentle.

      If Claudius is not forth coming, there is not a lot your friend can do.

      I will say one thing. The people closest to the person can tell ten stories for every story an outsider tells. So if your friend is seeing this much, the people that Claudius works with are seeing ten times that. One time we had a question on here regarding, “Do we tell the coworker’s wife?” As that wife, my answer is no. I already knew. Likewise here, I would assume the coworkers/boss already know. It could be that the company is keeping him employed until it is absolutely impossible to do so. This was done for my husband and I am forever grateful. I would say to your friend, that he should try to just ride it out as best he can.

  132. WhiskeyTango*

    My question is how to raise an issue with a boss who gets angry and defensive if you mention the slightest dissatisfaction with your job. She is scheduling 1×1 meetings to discuss our annual employee engagement survey results. Our department (for reasons that will become obvious) had extremely low engagement.

    In the past, whenever one our team members has tried to raise (legitimate) issues with our boss, she gets incredibly defensive, minimizes the issue and will then usually expend a great deal of effort trying to “manage out” these people. We have lost a lot of good people who were raising issues everyone agreed needed to be addressed. Most of us are acting very neutral right now, trying not get on her radar, but we all feel very stuck.

    I’d like to bring up my own issues in this 1×1 (one that I know at least one of the departed team members raised as well), which is that I was a Teapot Designer at my OldJob. When I came to this job, I thought I was going to be a Teapot Designer as well. My title, offer letter, etc., all indicate that I am a Teapot Designer. When I showed up for work, I was told they had enough designers and that I would be working as a Teapot Consultant helping our clients with Teapot Manufacturing. To be fair to my boss, my arrival at the company predates my bosses and I had raised this to her. Her response was to give me more consulting clients and discussed the possibility of design work in the future. Well, a year later, she has hired other Designers, who have been given Designer work, but none has come my way. The reason is that I’m pretty good at the consulting part and they don’t want to disrupt those clients, who are really happy working with me. If they gave me design work, I wouldn’t be as available to consult. That being said, its a good company. I like it. I just wish I was doing more design.

    So I want to bring it up again (tactfully) and basically tell her that I miss designing and if I were to take another job, this would be the reason why. Not that I would tell her, but I have been interviewing for design jobs. But, honestly, I’d be happy where I am if I could some design work. Normally, this is something I would bring up with my boss as a career conversation. But based on what I’ve seen with other people, I am concerned that if I did, I’d just become her next target to be managed out.

    FWIW, there’s a good chance my boss will be gone in the next six months. Should I just sit tight and remain under the radar (while looking for a design job, just in case) … or should I try to bring it up with her. Any advice would be appreciated. Thx.

    1. Kyrielle*

      I wouldn’t tell her, honestly. You’ve told her; nothing has been done except empty promises; at this point, your only good answer is to get out. (Or apply for a Designer position when it opens internally and maybe they’ll let you move into it, but….)

      Now, if your boss gets removed and you’re still there, you might try again with the new boss. But with this one, I don’t think you’ll gain anything by bringing it up again.

    2. Nobody*

      I wouldn’t say the part about how if you were to take another job, this would be why. She will probably consider that criticism, get defensive, and start managing you out. If you want to say something, I would phrase it like, “I sure love this job, but I would love it even more if I could get more designing responsibilities! Is there any way I could shift some of my consulting responsibilities to someone who is interested in that so I can do more of the design work I enjoy?”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It seems fairly reasonable to assume that one or both of you will have moved on in six months. No, I would not say anything. All it does is increase your stress levels unnecessarily, and it sounds like you have enough on your plate just to get through the next six months with her as it is.

  133. Ad Astra*

    Does anyone here have experience working in communications (something like social media, PR, or maybe internal comms) for a public school district or a university? I think that’s something I’d eventually want to do, but it seems competitive. I’m in comms now and I like it but the product/industry isn’t something I have strong feelings about. I’m passionate about education (and extremely passionate about my alma mater, which is not too far from where I live now). I also really value generous PTO and good insurance, and my friends who work for public school districts and universities have much better PTO and benefits than I have now at a for-profit business.

    I’d love any insight y’all have to offer. I’m not looking to make the move now, but probably sometime in the next five years.

    1. Sascha*

      I’ve been working in universities for the past 8 years, though not inn communications. So while I don’t know specifically what communications jobs might look for, I will tell you from my experience:

      – hiring managers love to see the passion for the school but also for the students and a betterment of their educational experience
      – be specific about your passion for education and the school – I’ve interviewed a lot of people who said they love higher ed/my school but it was vague and bland, those that really seemed genuine about it turned out to be better hires
      – state institutions typically have better benefits than private – I’ve been at both, the private benefits and PTO was super crappy, the state benefits are awesome
      – things move at the pace of molasses, especially hiring, so expect it to take a looooong time
      – sometimes it’s harder to move from education back to corporate – corporate often considers education jobs (even if they are administrative/business) to be slower and easier, so if you want to get back into corporate, be aware that it might be harder
      – pay is usually lower than corporate but often the benefits are better

      I hope this helps!

  134. Jackie*

    I’ve been at my current job for a year now and work in an office with about 10 people. My fiancé and I are getting married and I wanted to know what is the etiquette about inviting (some but not all) colleagues to the wedding?

    There is one coworker who I hang out with one-on-one outside of work and we have a non-work friend in common, so I know that just inviting her and not anyone else wouldn’t be a problem. Plus she’s discreet so no one would probably even know that she attended!

    However, I would also love to invite another colleague whom I feel close to. She is really sweet and has given me great professional and personal advice. But I worry if I invite her, my other colleagues might be offended about not also getting an invite.

    So, what’s the etiquette here?

    1. A*

      The etiquette here is “invite only the people you want to have at your wedding, because it’s YOUR WEDDING, and other people will either get over it or are jerks.”

      1. Ad Astra*

        I second this advice, but with an optional addendum: Inviting 2 of 10 coworkers to your wedding will make it look like you’re particularly close to two of your coworkers, which is true and fine. I don’t think what you’re proposing would ruffle any feathers.

        Inviting, say, 7 of 10 coworkers will look like you intentionally excluded three of your coworkers. That might hurt some feelings, though there’s a decent chance the excluded coworkers didn’t want to come to your wedding anyway.

        That said, you should do what YOU want. No sane adult would be mad about not attending a coworker’s wedding, and most people would know better than to bring it up.

    2. badger_doc*

      Invite who you want – anyone who get’s offended can just deal with it. If asked, you could say you had a limited number of seats available. Or you could ask the two you are inviting to not mention it at work because you cannot invite everyone. Congrats!

    3. Bangs not Fringe*

      I would just mention to the two who you are inviting that you are unable to invite the whole office. That way they don’t inadvertently ask someone else in the office if they’re going and people end up feeling awkward, embarrassed, and/or left-out.

      It’s your wedding. And they’re expensive, do what you want.

    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      I would also add the advice similar to children’s birthday party invitation etiquette: if you’re not inviting the whole class, you don’t hand out invitations at school. They should be mailed home as with all other guests.

      1. Maker of Quilts... and other things*

        If I may— this is not elementary school. Invite who you want. If people want to get in a snit because you didn’t invite them, oh well. They are adults and as long as you don’t say “naner naner boo boo– I’m not inviting you”, I think it’s fine. Mazel tov.

  135. So Very Anonymous*

    just a vent:

    I’ve been dealing with a Thing this week where someone in another organization on campus seems to be trying to use me as a back door to farming some of that organization’s work over to the department I’m in. But that person isn’t making that explicit; they’ve said things to me verbally that have suggested this ulterior motive, but is not putting them in writing. When they wanted to arrange a phone conversation about this, I escalated the situation up the chain of command, since I absolutely do not have the authority to commit department resources this way. Now I’m hearing that the higher-up also can’t quite get a straight answer about what the other organization wants from u, but doesn’t want to come straight out and ask. It’s out of my hands at this point, I know, but it’s still bugging me that no one in this situation seems able to make a straight statement, you know? Everything’s all hints and implications. And I’m just the person who asked that organization to come present to us on what they do, so that we’d have the knowledge, and it’s been disconcerting that that somehow became an implicit offer to help them do what they do. I’m worried that I inadvertently said something that implied that we wanted to take on this work. Also, not the first time that I’ve had curiosity about XYZ get interpreted as “hey, I want to take responsibility for XYZ,” and it’s kind of a deterrent to being, y’know, curious about things.

    1. MsM*

      That is frustrating. As long as it’s all hints and implications, I guess the only thing you can do is keep reiterating that you’ll need to talk to the higher-up. Although maybe this is an opportunity to talk to the higher-up about reframing the presentation if you give it in future so it’s clear it’s for reference only and not you essentially selling your services?

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        Actually, the thing was, I (well, we, it was in the name of an internal committee I’m on) invited this person to come to speak to us about what they do, because we need some awareness of that… and somehow it’s morphed into this person sort of assuming that this was the beginning of a partnership where we take on some of that work. All the correspondence is now going through my higher-up now. It’s just been weird to have the sense that if I said the things I am authorized to say (i.e., “yes, we can schedule an informational session where you inform us”), I was somehow agreeing to “yes, we will take on some of your organization’s work.”

        I suspect this has to do with an even higher higher-up who has a habit of selling my department as jacks-of-all-trade who can do almost anything (!) and that this is a chickens-coming-home-to-roost thing…. that is, this is a case of someone trying to take us up on that.

        I’m really glad it’s Friday!

  136. Persephone Mulberry/North Star Papercraft*

    Hi everyone! I have a huuuuuge (Alison-approved) favor to ask. I’m trying to gain some exposure as a professional artist, and toward that end I’ve entered one of my pieces in an international contest for my specific genre of art (paper quilling). The top 10 entries will be judged by a panel of experts in this art form, but of course the top 10 is determined by the dreaded Facebook Popularity Contest. If you’re on Facebook, would you vote for me? Clicking on my username above will take you directly to my entry. Each Like and Share (1 per person) counts as a vote. Last I checked I was right on the edge to make the cut or not, and voting only goes through tonight at 11:59 EST. Thank you so much!

  137. FNG*

    I just got hired as a technical writer as a medium-sized business. They only need me for a specific project that should only last 3-6 months. I am being hired through a staffing agency and I will be technically paid through the staffing agency and contracted through them or whatever. This is my first position of this type, what’s the etiquette listing this job on future resumes and Facebook/LinkedIn?

  138. Raia*

    Any suggestions on increasing efficiency? I’m a new grad and finding that I’m in the trap of thinking way too much to complete tasks at work. I meet all my deadlines, but I just get so distracted with email, contributing my piece to team stuff, phone calls, and paper! Oh the paper. I used to have a desk but now I don’t, so there is a TON of paper I carry around. I feel stupid getting more frazzled the more loose papers I see floating around my computer, but I can’t help it. At least with the desk at the end of the day, I’d ritually clean my desk of all papers and file them into This Week, Next Week, and Outbound. So then I’m frazzled while being bogged down in my thinking, which makes producing genuine signs of work tough. Any ideas to shut down that school-taught thought process?

    1. LucyVP*

      paper specific: When on the move or when sharing a desk I’ve had a lot of success with a large binder filled with brightly colored pocket folders (or plastic sleeves). You can have all your papers in one easy to transport place, but you are not actually 3 hold punching all your papers, they are loose and movable in and out of the folders as they would be if you had standing files on your desk (urgent, this week, next week, outbound, etc.).

    2. AcidMeFlux*

      When you’re first working it can be hard to figure out what to use for what. Maybe you’re relying on paper too much? Keep things in cloud/Dropbox; rely on a good phone with a lot of storage or a tablet (and there are USB pen drives that can be used with some phones/tablets.) And ask your co-workers how they handle things. The best advice I’ve gotten on the practical day to days stuff has come from people who work at the same thing I do.

    3. Argh!*

      Have you always been an overthinker? If not, it’s probably temporary to being new, and maybe due to not having your own space.

      I think you have a legitimate complaint about not having a desk. Even a shelf or cupboard could lighten your load and you’d have to think less about things that would be in your neatly organized space.

  139. VFX Moose*

    I can’t decide if I should stay in Vancouver or leave. It’s a lovely city. It really earns its place near the top of livability ratings. It’s clean, safe, diverse, beautiful, accessible. There are great restaurants and shops and museums and outdoor activities. I make good money and live in a beautiful apartment.

    And it’s a good job I do: it’s catastrophically expensive here. Rent isn’t too extreme, but buying is out of the question for someone on my income, unless I moved way out of the city center, at which point I’d lose the benefits that make it so enjoyable to live here. I’m also far away from my aging parents in the eastern US. I feel guilty being so far away (even though they don’t do anything to make me feel so). I’m scared of missing their last 15 years. I’m scared I’ll never settle down and start a family and have children who get to know their grandparents, like I did.

    As for work, I really like my job, but the industry is a bit of a mess. The hours are extremely long, and there is a lot of instability. Work comes and goes, and people move around a lot between companies. Many go bankrupt thanks to low profit margins and high overhead cost. So part of me wants to just get out and start over and live somewhere cheaper and closer to family. But I’m scared to leave the only industry I’ve ever worked in (only 6 years). Any advice?

    1. Not So Sunny*

      All I can tell you is that you’ll be working for 30+ years (guessing) but your parents may only be around for half that.

      I spent most of my adult life separated from my family and it pains me. I try not to think about it or I’ll weep.

      Is your industry not transferable in some way to a new location?

      1. AcidMeFlux*

        ^^Yes, this. Careers are enormously important in a life but good jobs can be found in many places. A happy family is a rare thing. Enjoy it while you can.

      2. VFX Moose*

        Sadly, my industry is limited to a very few cities worldwide. Primarily, Vancouver, London, LA. I’ve lived in all three and I’ve appreciated my time. But I think you make a good point about the length of career vs. length of time w/ family. Thank you.

    2. The IT Manager*

      I just moved from somewhere I ended up (but didn’t love) back home only because my family is here. This would not be my choice place to live. It’s very popular with a certain type of person, but I’m not that type of person. OTOH I am finding ways to keep myself busy and join groups. I’m happy with the move and it is great to be able to see my parents and the rest of my family more than two or three times a year.

      I think being near family is worth it. And your main reason for not going is fear. That fear is understandable, but don’t let it hold you back.

      Also sounds like you’re single now. This will be lots harder to do with a partner so now’s the time for you to strike out on this new adventure.

  140. LucyVP*

    I have an employee who is struggling a bit in a way that I am not experienced with mentoring and would love any ideas anyone may have.

    He was hired almost one year ago in a position that is about 75% admin and 25% industry specific. He had amazing industry experience but minimal admin experience (never had a full time desk job before). We selected him from the candidate pool primarily for his industry experience and because he had some industry specific skills that our team didn’t currently have. I knew his admin skills would be the challenge and expected a learning curve.

    Now, I’m struggling to mentor and manage him. Admin skills are growing but still not where I would like them to be. There is a lot of oversight and double checking that I have to do to make sure the admin portions of the duties are running smoothly. I’ve been working heavily with him on not taking shortcuts, going slowing and doing things methodically.
    At this point I need to be delegating larger tasks and projects to him but don’t feel confident about it. His understanding of how small tasks fit into a larger picture has been a challenge as well.

    Any thoughts or hints about the best way to move forward. Ultimately I think he is a good fit for the organization and I am feeling more and more that his challenges are due to my shortcomings on the management/training end. I also think I am comparing him to the two previous people in his role who took on the admin roles much more naturally.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I don’t have any advice other than to talk to him about how he’s feeling. It sounds to me like he might be a big picture-type person and struggles with the details and day-to-day stuff that fits into the bigger picture, which means he might not ever be suited to an admin job. I’m just guessing, but that’s what it sounds like to me.

    2. AnotherFed*

      First off, I feel your pain. I’ve got one minion right now who is the epitome of flaky.

      Have you been teaching him with checklists? That can really help some not so detail-oriented people catch all the details they should. If you have and it’s not working, talk to him about the checklist and make him update it or clarify it so that he can use it to prevent mistakes. If the problem is that he’s overconfident and doesn’t actually follow the checklist (like my minion), can you make it interactive in some way so that he’s forced to methodically go through it, then turn it? As he gets better, you can spot check things based on how the checklist looks (and learn trends like if he messes up task X once that day, he’s messed up every time).

      1. Rebecca*

        Checklists are an excellent idea! I am detail oriented, but when I have to learn a new task or change something about what I’ve been doing for a long period of time, I tend to miss a step. I’ve made checklists and printed them out to put in front of me on my document stand, and it’s a huge help. Eventually I realize I haven’t even looked at it, yet I’ve completed the steps. We also use these in our office for people who don’t get the picture, so to speak, and make them actually complete the checklist and attach it to their document to show they reviewed it correctly.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You could ask him what he needs in training that he is not getting from you. Ask him where he sees gaps in his own understanding of processes.

      It could be that he cannot handle a lot of repetitive work. Is the work repetitive? Is he filling out the same forms 20 times a day?

      You might try insisting that he double check the first step on a task before moving to the second step. I did this with my current job and I cannot tell you how many times it saved me.

      This is going to sound stupid, but it is an example of the type of help I needed. When computers were growing in the 80s and 90s I took some computer courses. I looked at the screen and went into overload. Then someone said, “Start reading in the upper left like you do with a book. Then keep reading/scanning left to right until you reach the bottom of the screen.” Sounds reeeeally basic, right? But I needed someone to say that, after that my ability to learn about computers went up dramatically. It could be that he just needs a few tips that everyone else takes for granted that people know.

  141. Hermoine Granger*

    How can you increase your chances at getting your resume seen and/or an interview at a large company if you don’t have any networking contacts and the company uses an ATS? Compared to other methods, have you been more or less successful at landing interviews via ATS applications, especially Taleo? Larger companies all seem to use them and they’re impossible to get through.

    I’ve come to realize that I have no luck with ATS. For example, this week I applied for a position at a large company that uses Taleo. The responsibilties and qualifications were pretty much a description of one of my previous positions so I took the time to really tailor my resume and cover letter. However, the system was very slow and didn’t offer the option to include a resume. Instead, the application was limited to just past job titles and dates of employment with no option to manually add details about my responsibilities / achievements.

    There was no tech support info listed for the career section or the overall website. I contacted their customer service number and was given an email address to which I was told to send a description of the problem along with a screenshot. I submitted the email on Tuesday but didn’t receive a reply and got a rejection email later that night. I created another account (I know) and was able to upload my resume but again it was only used to fill-in job titles and dates, the file itself wasn’t saved. I tried reaching out to an HR person about the tech issue via LinkedIn but haven’t received a reply.

    Now granted, I’m really interested in the position so I put some effort into trying to get in touch with an actual person. However, this isn’t the first time that I’ve run into tech issues with Taleo and there were no options for contacting tech support. It sucks!

    1. Ad Astra*

      My current job and my last job both used an ATS, and my last job was a very large company with properties all across the country that don’t really talk to one another. Neither was Taleo, but one of them was Success Factors, which is widely maligned the way Taleo is.

      In both cases, I was able (maybe even required) to upload a resume. I don’t know if it actually helped, but my resume does have a box that just lists skills (HTML, analytics, various specific software mentioned by name) that the ATS might have picked up.

      My understanding is that companies can customize their ATS in a lot of ways, so not everyone who uses Taleo will decide to disallow resumes and omit the space to describe your job duties. In fact, that’s a really stupid way to configure your ATS, so I doubt other large companies will be stupid in the same way.

      Honestly, it sounds like you’re doing everything you can do, and it sucks that you’re running into so many issues.

      1. Hermoine Granger*

        I like the idea of a skills box! It might be a good idea for some of the positions that are heavily focused on specific or tech skills.

        Not accepting resumes seemed so weird that I assumed it was a mistake or tech glitch. Eh, nothing else to do about it. Thanks for replying!

    2. BRR*

      That’s so odd. If something like that happens again I would try a different browser or wait a day or two to apply if there is a technical error. I agree the systems suck though. My husband accidentally applied to a job without a resume attached (and there was space for one) even though nowhere was there a submit button. Needless to say he was rejected.

      In my current hunt though I’m getting equal feedback between ATS and generic email addresses. It can happen, there is hope!

  142. 2 Cents*

    Wanted to share because I just heard it (4th hand?):

    A company was restructuring, and the employees knew this, but no one was sure what kind of staff cuts, if any, would be made. One Friday, the CMO did a big PowerPoint presentation in front of the entire company, like 150 or so people. The last slide of the presentation was a list of 3 dozen names. If your name was on the list, you had to go to another location for a training session. The rest of the people stayed in the presentation room.

    Everyone who stayed in the room was let go BY POWERPOINT. I’m not sure there’s a good way to let people go, but I’m pretty sure it’s not making them sit through an hourlong presentation about the “state of the company,” then separating the haves and have-nots via slide. :/

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      As they say “pics or it isn’t true.”

      Many years ago, a story was passed around that a company (no one could ever remember their name) scheduled a meeting for select employees. Everyone filed into the room, sat down and when the person came out to the front to get the meeting start, very quickly announced that everyone in the room was being dismissed/laid off immediately and their desks were being packed up at that moment. They were to hand in their key cards on their way out the door, then report back to the main building for their belongings.

      Did it happen? No idea but it’s just horrible enough to be true. Whether it’s an urban legend like that guy who walked in on his girlfriend, his dog and the peanut butter or something that happened once (or even more than once) and has quickly gained in scope in the telling, no one can say for sure.

      Because if you’re about to fire/lay off a whole bunch of people, you’re not going to keep them in a strategy meeting, you’re going to do it before that meeting starts. I quit a job and since I was going to the main competitor, that was my last day. They weren’t going to keep me around because I might steal clients or secrets (of which there were neither). When I was at NewJob for only a few months, I got hauled into a VP’s office for sending an e-mail to someone I kept in touch with at OldJob — that was completely innocuous. So, I can’t believe any company would keep people in a meeting only to be fired. But it’s just horrible enough to be true.

      1. Ruffingit*

        Indeed it is just horrible enough to be true. I’ve worked for at least two bosses who I can legitimately see doing this.

      2. Rebecca*

        This happened at my old company. I was in a remote location, so I was told one-on-one that my job was being eliminated. Everyone at the main location was sent a meeting request with one of two locations and instructions NOT to discuss the meeting with coworkers. The ones in conference room A (we’re talking several HUNDRED people) were told they were being let go. I can’t even imagine. Apparently all of the bars near the office were packed!

    4. Judy*

      I did once find out that my boss had been let go by powerpoint in a room with 150 other people. I hadn’t seen him that morning, and during a large meeting, they showed the org chart. Nothing really different about the org chart except another name was in the place of my manager. The 10 people in our group were told to go to a particular conference room after that meeting to meet the new manager, who was a new hire.

    6. Rebecca*

      When the company I work at was sold to another company, they called the entire office staff to my department’s cube farm. If memory serves, there were over 70 people crammed in there. A Vice President announced that there would be massive layoff’s, redundancy, you know, and started to read a list of names in what quickly became apparent was alphabetical order. If your name was on the list, you were handed an envelope. You were gone. The people in the room that did not receive an envelope were not laid off. I did not receive an envelope. I had been working for 26 years of my life that point, and it was the most horrible thing I ever endured. When he was done, and the meeting ended, I collapsed into my chair, laid my head down on my desk and cried uncontrollably. To this day, when I think about that and as I’m typing this, I feel anxious and just dreadful. What a horrible, stupid way to tell people they are no longer wanted as employees. I still work for these people, and I hate them for it. I will find another job. It grieves me that I have to give 2 week’s notice, but I will, because I will do the right thing, but still, I’d rather just walk out and never return.

    7. Artemesia*

      When this many people are involved I am not sure that something like this is not the best way to go EXCEPT the sitting through a boring lecture first. One might gather 150 people and then announce that different groups would be meeting in different rooms for training and then let the ax fall. But first bore them silly then do this. Ick.

      I found out I was losing my job on the front page of the paper when the merger was announced and it was announced that certain departments would be let go. That was fun. I was 3 mos pregnant and in the shower when my husband brought the paper into the bathroom.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Wow, to all you guys, just wow. Your companies must have thought they employed cattle, not people. No. Wait. Some cattle get better treatment.

  143. Regina*

    Who are your go-to people when you want to talk about specific job/career concerns in your life? This board is great, but I have specific needs for what I’m doing now, why I’m so dissatisfied, and what I can do about it. People in my daily life seem sick of me, because my jobs always make me unhappy, and it’s not like they can do anything about it. I can’t talk to work people because of the obvious reasons. And in general, I wouldn’t want to air my dirty laundry to any potential networking person, because they have to view me as an Amazing Rockstar Potential Employee, right?

    I am not totally sold on career counselor types; I find it a scam. I do think therapy in general might be warranted, but what about for specific job concerns? I really want to talk to someone who knows my field and what I do. I feel like I have no benchmark on where I should be or how I’m doing. My current manager is not reliable for this, which is a large part of the problem.

    Where do you turn for concrete, actionable advice?

    1. Buttonhole*

      My dad, sometimes my husband. My father worked in the corporate field for years managed people and projects globally. He has heard, seen, experienced it all. My husband gets a bit arrogant, “you should have…why did you not..”. My dad just listens, and then gives advice without condescending or patronising me.

      1. Ruffingit*

        I bet your dad’s employees loved him! Someone who listens and gives constructive advice is pretty rare.

    2. Delyssia*

      I don’t really have an answer here, but I’m very curious to hear what others have to say. The closest I’ve come is a former co-worker, Mary. She has a good idea of my strengths and weaknesses and gets what I do, but even so, she’s kind of limited in what kind of advice she can offer. (I work in marketing for a teapot design firm. My background is marketing; Mary’s background is teapot design, and she moved back to teapot design when she left my current employer. So I’d love to find someone who could give me more marketing-focused advice, which she can’t outside of the teapot design industry.)

    3. Sascha*

      There is a director and professor on campus who is my mentor. I got to know her through working with her with our university’s distance education department. I go to her because she has been at the university for a long time, so she understands the culture. She’s also the director/professor in the department when I graduated, so we have a lot of things in common, and also similar lifestyles (for example, she’s been great at helping me figure out how to be a successful working mother in this particular environment). Is there anyone at your company or in your industry who you’ve worked with before that might be a mentor like that?

      1. All can be returned. All can be taken away.*

        +0.9999…

        Admittedly these kinds of people aren’t always easy to find. But I know such a person, and she offered to be my “external” mentor when she quit and went to academia, and her advice proved immensely helpful some years ago when I found myself getting ‘squeezed’.

    5. Eva*

      I had a huge workplace issue going on a couple of years ago, for over a year. My friends/family were all sick of hearing about it and I didn’t know what to do.

      I ended up going to see a counsellor to talk through the issues. It was the best thing I could have done. First of all, she took me very seriously – she didn’t think that my problems didn’t warrant her help, she listened to everything that I had to say, and she validated for me that I was dealing with significant issues. The problem with constantly complaining to my friends/family was that I would complain about one issue or another, and they wouldn’t think it was a big deal. But when I met with the counsellor and talked about all the issues at once, she reassured me that it was very understandable that I was feeling so distressed about work, and that it was a very bad situation!

      Like you, I also thought that my jobs always made me unhappy. However, my counselling session reassured me that the situations I had been in were well beyond normal, and that I had persisted through them for a really long time – so it was no wonder I was feeling that way. I only needed one session (not long, drawn-out therapy, talking about childhood experiences or anything like that, we just talked about the issue at hand). I highly recommend that you find a therapist/counsellor (not a career counsellor, just a regular psychologist.)

    6. Not Karen*

      I found the EAP counselor at LastJob really helpful. I didn’t find regular therapy to be much good for *actionable* advice.

  144. charlen blay*

    What do you do about a coworker that suffers from mental illness and is also an alcoholic? My boss is in denial every time she has breakdown, she gets rude with customers and the boss makes excuses for her.Have gone to HR, and have suffered mentally and physically because of it.Am contemplating going over my bosses head. Help!#

    1. fposte*

      It’s not about having a mental illness and being an alcoholic, it’s about whether she’s doing the work properly or not. Are you losing customers because of this? That’s the point to make.

      I would certainly consider going to her boss about it, but it sounds from the second sentence like her boss is aware and is making excuses for her. In that case, I’d assume neither her boss nor HR are going to do anything and I’d look for another job, fast.

      1. Artemesia*

        Some people believe you can’t fire someone for this sort of thing. I worked in an organization which dealt with alcoholics by offering them re-hab and requiring them to meet the job requirements subsequently or be dismissed. Saved the life and marriage of one of my colleagues.

  145. Ugly teapots*

    Two questions:
    1) Do you apply for a role you are underqualified for? My husband and I disagree on this. If there is a requirement listed on a job posting I don’t have, I won’t apply. For example, XX experience required. So while I may have experience in XX’s competitors (YY and ZZ), and they are essentially all the same, I don’t have XX specifically, so I don’t apply. I feel like once the hiring person doesn’t see that qualification I’m eliminated from consideration so I don’t want to waste time/resources/energy tailoring my CL and resume. Am I going about it wrong? Should I acknowledge in the CL that while I don’t have XX experience, I have YY and ZZ experience?

    2) How do you handle a question highlighting something you’re proud of, when you aren’t proud of the work (that being a reason you’re looking for a new job)? I’m responsible for the strategy of selling teapots – I say how they should be designed, and why, who we should sell to, and what the message on the box should be, but I’m not actually a decision maker and can’t implement the suggestions. When applying for a new job, I was asked to show a teapot that I’m most proud of, something to really ‘wow’ them. I hate every teapot we sell-they are ugly and old fashioned.

    I didn’t think that would suffice so I provided a teapot I was able to test – a curved handle vs a square handle, and explained that was the first successful test the company had run that signified a design change, and led to many more successful tests, but I didn’t explicitly say I didn’t design the [ugly] teapot. Did I go about that right, or is there a better way to handle that?

    1. Kyrielle*

      1) Yes, yes, yes apply. The first job I got out of college needed 3 years of experience in C for Windows. I had … college classes on C++ for Unix and no work experience at all. I got it on the promise that I would learn, and I excelled. And for the job I just moved to, they really wanted a different focus (ironically, C++ under Linux) than I had, and I just talked about my transferrable skills and readiness to learn. I acknowledged in my cover letter that I would have a learning curve and said that I was excited to learn and then master these skills, that sort of thing. (Which happened to be true: I was looking for a position that would let me stretch in this direction, although it’s been a lot of stretching all at once. So it goes, and I think I’m doing okay.)

    2. Anoning it Up*

      On number 1, I think there have been studies (maybe Sheryl Sandberg pointed them out? I forget where I heard this) that women will only apply to jobs where they meet 100% of the qualifications, and men will apply even if they only meet 60%. Or something like that. So if you’re female, you and your husband might personify this statistic! I think that where ever I was reading this, the advice was that women need to apply more, even if they’re close but not all the way qualified. You never know when the hiring manager will see something (s)he likes, and the worst that can happen is your resume gets circular filed.

      Now, this will of course vary depending on the job. I would do exactly what you’re suggesting in your example, though! Something like “While I don’t have experience XX software, my six years’ experience with similar programs, such as YY and ZZ, should make learning XX a breeze.” Or however you would say it in your own tone.

      1. Ugly teapots*

        These are all good points. Though I know I’m qualified and capable of ramping up quickly, (I’m self taught on YY and ZZ), I always take things quite literally. I’m going to start applying to jobs I feel qualified for.

        1. Felicia*

          If you are female, you do seem to personify that statistic! In my experience – just in hiring for one job and getting jobs where i don’t meet 100% of the qualifications, hiring managers aren’t necessarily looking for someone who meets 100% of the qualifications listed. At least for me , if someone met 60% of the qualifications but then had lots of related but not exactly the same experience and/or had demonstrated the ability to learn new things easily , then they’ll at least be considered.

          I think 60% is a good benchmark…if you meet less than that, don’t bother, but if you meet 60% of the qualifications or more, it’s worth applying, especially if you have related but not exactly listed experience. The person I hired recently met about 75% of the qualifications but had also worked at a very similar company before doing different things ,which was helpful.

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Okay 2.

      I’m a hiring manager for jobs related to that and I just love a beautifully designed pot and people with an eye for beauty. If I asked you for that and you said to me , honestly, “I’m not thrilled with final output and that’s one of the reasons I’m looking to move”, I’d eat that up with a spoon. What would happen next is we’d talk about good design, bad design, standards, brand standards, messaging, market/audience, etc etc. Being proud of the final product is such a reward.

      I wouldn’t believe you were any good at design, though, unless you could show me. So if we had that conversation and then you were able to whip out protype sketches, point to elements in our teapots you liked, point to elements in your current company’s you like or would like to change, that would help me gain trust that we had similar design sense.

      Summary: Being 100% honest would work best with me. I would think that would work best with most people.

      1. Ugly teapots*

        Thanks for this. I unfortunately missed my opportunity with this one, but will take this approach if it comes up in the future.

    4. Cruciatus*

      >Am I going about it wrong? Should I acknowledge in the CL that while I don’t have XX experience, I have YY and ZZ experience?<

      Definitely apply and acknowledge in the cover letter! I think you never know who is going to be looking at the cover letter–maybe XX is required now, but YY or ZZ will be used in the future and, hey, you already know that! Here's Alison's view on this when it's been addressed before:
      "So if you really consider yourself under-qualified, you might be looking at the wrong jobs. You’re going to have the best chances applying for jobs that you’re qualified for; you don’t have to be a perfect match, but you should be fairly close.

      However, there are degrees of qualified. If they want 10 years of experience and you have two years, this probably isn’t the job for you. But if they want 3-5 years of experience and you have two years, and you can write a really good cover letter and point to excellent achievements in those two years, go ahead and apply."

      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/01/how-to-apply-for-a-job-youre-not-fully-qualified-for.html

      I haven't been a perfect match for anything I've gotten hired for, but I was able to prove what I was good at and how that would relate to the stuff that I haven't yet done and that I'd be able to learn it over time. The likelihood that anyone is a perfect match is pretty slim. Don't count yourself out before you've even tried!

    5. schnapps*

      I think I’d agree with your husband. You don’t apply for a job because you can do everything – you apply because you have transferable skills in chocolate teapot architecture that will allow you to design a white chocolate teapot with strawberry swirls. And because that job will help you advance your skills and career. To put it another way, if you don’t get the job designing the chocolate teapot with strawberry swirls, how are you going to get that skill? I think by not applying, you’re really limiting your prospects (and yourself).

      As for the second question, I’d focus more on what you were proud of in the process and what the successful outcome was. Keep in mind I work in government so I may be totally unqualified to answer this question.

    6. Ugly teapots*

      While I’m definitely bummed that I messed up my opportunity to explain that I wasn’t really proud of any of the teapots and was the reason I was looking, I am definitely going to start looking at ‘requirements’ as more ‘wish lists’ and apply if I feel I have the right level of experience!

    7. Teapot Dome*

      Then again, keep in mind that a lot of applicant tracking systems score your application lower. I should know – an ATS rejected me because my degree was not in communications, marketing, journalism, or something similar.

  146. Ruffingit*

    Anyone ever just quit and walk out on the spot? Not looking for discussion of the pros and cons, we all pretty much know those. And no I’m not looking to do this, just interested in the stories

    2. Steve G*

      Happy Friday and I love my new job.
      Anyways, I did do this one and a half times. Once was back when I worked at a Macys that had no or little security system and I was really busy actively selling, which required me to go in the backroom a lot. Well, apparently that is a no-no and I was also in the changing rooms “too much” cleaning them…so basically they accused me of shoplifting and said I could no longer go in the backroom. Um, OK, because I was the only person there actually trying to sell stuff, like expensive suits, but I guess that is a bad thing. So instead of investing in a security camera system, just accuse your employees of stealing (even though the suits weren’t what was missing, I would presume, since they were pretty securely stored). Great!
      The “real” time was at a professional job where it was a close-knit group, and I could tell from the get-go that one of the higher ups just didn’t want me there. There was an awkward power dynamic (which only mattered to him since he was an insecure nitwit) because we were both advanced in similar computer programs so he couldn’t trump me there, and I trumped him in terms of industry contacts, but he owned their backend development, which I would never trump. He seemed upset anytime I did anything good. He regularly called me out on things, which didn’t lead anywhere, because for the most part, I was already on top of the issues he called me out based on. Towards the end there were three instances where he tried to publicly call me out on “mistakes,” each more obnoxious, until one time he walked into a conference call and started talking over me like I didn’t know what I was doing. Truth be told, the conversation was getting over my head, but I was going to take notes and wrap it up and follow it up. It wasn’t so much “I don’t know what they are talking about” stuff vs. “I don’t know what our MO is yet so let me follow up.” Well apparently he was listening through the walls and felt it was OK to interrupt. He then berated me for (how dare I) try to have that level of a conversation with a customer. I said I didn’t propose xyz tech solutions, they brought them up. Well, he could spin this not-so-productive-conference call into a story of me regularly being in over my head, and met my boss about it**. He then called the customer behind my back and said we’d cancel the big contract if they didn’t do exactly abc. WTF.
      So I am the incompetent one even though I did nothing wrong, but its OK for this guy to barge in on my work and cancel customers that bring in money? I let him win, because I was never going to be allowed to flourish with him there, and he was very comfortable, and wasn’t going anywhere, and he probably knew that I knew that no other competitor gives someone in his role so much oversight over the financials (in fact, I would say it was pretty much against regulatory rules to have so much centered on one person).
      One of the main reasons I walked out was because it doesn’t feel like a workplace when people are so comfortable some days and throw temper tantrums over nothing on others, so it just didn’t feel the same as walking out of a job with a more traditionally professional vibe.
      **If you might think I indeed was above my head, I must note I had managed a few similar tech projects at previous previous co, but had wanted to discuss how they did them at the newer Co before I proceeded. I would have done this myself within a few days. So there was no need for drama.

      1. Steve G*

        ….and it was also clear that I was never going to advance their no matter what, and it was clear that discussing these matters further was leading nowhere….so I felt at a bit of a dead end…

    3. Amber Rose*

      Sort of. I took a job at a box store infamous for poor treatment of employees and after a month I was so miserable I couldn’t bear it. I no call/no showed for about 2 weeks after which my guilt grew and I felt like I should at least return my uniform. When I got there however, I found that I was still on the schedule. They never even noticed I was gone.

      So for laughs I worked one more shift then called in Eff You, I’m Out. I got a call back asking me if I was able to work my next shift. -_-

      I tried really hard to quit and walk out but man, it just wouldn’t take. They called a while longer even after I’d taken a new job.

      1. Teapot Dome*

        Uh… Wow, they must’ve really wanted you to stay. Either that, or they’re completely incompetent.

        (Don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m guessing the latter.)

    4. Kyrielle*

      When I was in high school or between years of college (I forget which), I really wanted a summer job and was having no luck. So I accepted one at a call center that promised me I wouldn’t be doing sales.

      I wasn’t. I was calling people to ask them to call their representatives saying they supported or opposed bill whatever, because yadda yadda. (Members of the teapot painters’ union on behalf of the teapot painters’ union, for example.)

      Someone told me to talk to their dog, and then told the dog to ‘speak’ to bark right into the phone. One woman responded to a yes or no question about whether she’d call in support, with a harangue about how she was only a member of the union becuase otherwise she couldn’t be a teapot painter, and she thought their view was wrong and they could stuff it. The script – which I wasn’t supposed to deviate from ever – then wanted me to ask if “we” could send a note to her rep on her behalf. I clicked ‘no’ without asking.

      I think I actually made it through the shift. But I told them as I left that I wasn’t coming back. They were not very surprised – they have to lose a lot of people that way.

    5. Rebecca*

      No, but I’m about to say screw you all and move to my parent’s basement. Which would be OK if I was 30 years younger. But at 52, with parents of 80 and 79, ummm….not so great. But man does it sound tempting.

    6. Windchime*

      Yep, I did it. I had a potential job to go to and the guy I worked for was a huge jerk, so I just walked in after lunch one day and said, “I quit.” Turned in my name tag and left. I don’t recommend it, but I was young and the job was selling men’s clothing on commission so I kind of didn’t care.

      The boss was a young guy with a Snidely Whiplash handlebar mustache and he always said his full name (including middle initial) when he answered the phone. So if his name was Sam, he would answer the phone, “this is Samuel L. Jackson speaking”.

      1. Rubyrose*

        Many, many years ago. It was a part time college job, keeping inventory for a very small (5 person) gift company. The office manager/secretary spent 1 hr every morning reading the paper, looking for another job. I was brought in to help lighten her load, but she really did not want me there. She didn’t let me use the copier, which I needed to at times. This was before computers, so the inventory was kept on index cards. It was boring and the hostility coming from her got to me. During one shift I just started playing with the idea of quitting. At the end of that shift, 3 hrs later, I got up, put on my coat, walked over to her, said “Would you mail my check to me?” and walked out the door.

        Saved my sanity.

    7. All can be returned. All can be taken away.*

      Not since I started getting “real” jobs, but …

      – when I was 16yo I worked as a carhop at a place that was like a Sonic (but was not Sonic) and I did not get along at all well with my coworkers. One night I jus “hell with it” and walked off.

      – when I was 20yo I really wanted to spend the summer on-campus, so I took a crap job at Taco Bell. The working conditions were horrible; eventually I just said “I quit”. A week later I lucked into an assistantship doing some actual software work, so it worked out well.

      I still wonder what it is about fast food jobs that seems to attract the very worst in management.

    8. Yeah right*

      Yep, did it on 7th April, this year. After more than 7 years dedication to a very disfunctional workplace and putting up with a lot of lazy, stupid coworkers, the crunch for me was when the boss’ daughter (oh, forgot to mention the rampant nepotism) had a ‘chat’ with me about my ‘attitude’. She said I wasn’t ‘besties’ with everyone and because I was always working, it came across to the others that I was being unsociable! Heaven forbid I actually work when I am at my job! It was the last straw for me and so I just laughed at her and said she was crazy, and if she was happy to lose a good employee, then I know where the door is. I knew it was my time to leave, so I did – that same day – and I actually made them pay for two weeks stress leave. My doctor diagnosed me with PTSD, much to my surprise! It did take me a few weeks to aclimatise to not working, but I now have a fantastic new job, working with a great bunch of people and a great boss. Of course, as I still had keys to the office, I picked up all my stuff the weekend after I quit. I did a job that no-one else knew how to do, so I have great pleasure in imagining them struggling to keep up with the amount of work that I did – and it was a lot… Oh, and after I left, 6 other people have also left the company.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      When I was 20-21 I had a job waitressing. It was near home and I could walk to work. Those were the two good things I could say about it. Then someone got murdered in the woods near by so I changed my list of what was good about the job to “it was near home”. The boss would throw the dishes at you if you did not get them clean. Plastic dishes, but he threw them like a frisbee. And it did not matter if you weren’t the one who washed dishes that day. Working there was like walking through burning building and hoping not to get burned. One day he started his usual yelling crap. But this time he said, “Why don’t you do me a favor and quit?!” In a normal speaking voice, I said “okay”, but he did not hear me because of his own yelling. I put on my coat. “What are you doing?” This time he stopped talking. I said in a normal speaking voice, “I am doing you a favor. I quit.” I walked out the door pretty shaken, but the only customer in the store followed me out. He said, “I will never, ever do business with this place again!” Even though it was only one person, there was something so gratifying in knowing that this one person walked with me. He indicated that other people were catching on to this guy and they probably would stop going there, too.

      I have fantasized about walking out the door with some jobs, but I never thought about it with that job. I just figured that at some point I would give notice and work my notice. I guess that was part of why I was able to speak calmly- I did not overthink it. The guy’s eyes were wild and he was screaming at me for the thousandth time. I just said to myself, “Done here.”

  147. stk*

    Hey hivemind. I’m looking for a new job. I’m in my early thirties and always had a full-time job, but I’m also a brand new graduate. (I just booked my graduation ceremony!) I know the usual advice is that your education should come after your work on a CV/resume unless you’re fresh out of college, but I don’t know how that applies to me. Two things –

    I’ve got work history, but the date on my degree is 2015. I want to highlight it, as I’m proud of the work I’ve put in. But if I put it first, are people going to think I’m ten years younger than I am and not register my years of work experience?

    I’ve also got some previous college credits. I’ve previously kept them on the resume, but now I’ve got the degree (from a different institution) should I take them off? I guess right now that a gap would look weirder than just ‘I tried this and it didn’t work out’?

    1. AnotherFed*

      It depends on how related the degree and your previous work experience are and what jobs you’re looking for. In general, I’d assume you want work in the degree field and put that at the top (even more senior people tend to put the degree first so that it’s clear), then move down into relevant experience. If your coursework was more relevant than your previous experience (ex. engineering senior design project vs working at an auto parts store), then you can also include that before your experience (just don’t include a giant list of every class you’ve taken).

  148. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Dear Business to Business Customers flooding us with RUSH orders after 5pm Eastern on Friday before Labor Day Weekend,

    We are just pretending to have all of this under control.

    In reality, all of our supplier factories have closed for the Labor Day Weekend and will not reopen or be contactable until Tuesday morning. We can’t check inventory or arrange rushes for you. Also, I couldn’t get anybody in the art department to work on Saturday because, Labor Day weekend, and you really can’t blame them, but that means your art doesn’t get started until Tuesday morning either.

    I appreciate that your work lives are busy and we surely appreciate your business, but, Labor Day Weekend is the same weekend every year, and always three days long, isn’t it?

    I sure hope all of these orders work out!

    Signed,

    Your Grateful, Yet Pretending, Vendor

    1. Rebecca*

      I received an order via EDI late this afternoon from my biggest customer. It’s going to ship via air from a factory in China to Spain. The ship date, cancel date, and in store date transmitted as…wait for it…SEPTEMBER 4! Yep. 15 minutes before I was scheduled to walk out the door. Not even a rush air shipment could accomplish this bit of magic.

      We’ll deal with it on Tuesday.

      sighs

      1. _ism_*

        I’ve been doing this stuff for a year now and don’t know anything about sales, but it’s always the salespeople up in the corporate office who promise this stuff and have NO IDEA what we have to coordinate to get it done, at the expense of everything else already late/on hold/etc.

        1. Rebecca*

          Yes, a thousand times! Me: we have an issue with a purchase order. The customer wants two widgets packed together in one box. But each widget is made in a separate country, with different exiting ports. Sales rep: why is this a problem? Just make it happen! The customer is always right, blah blah blah. Me: pounds head on desk. THAT’S NOT HOW LOGISTICS WORK!

        2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          That’s funny and a common complaint about sales.

          We’re a weird hybrid. We’re the salespeople AND we’re also the people who make the stuff get done. So, half my brain is going “wheeeeeeeeeeeee, look at all the orders!!!!!!!!!” as the rush orders flooded in late Friday and the other half is going “gahhhhhhhhhhhh, how is any of this going to get actual done and to these customers when they want it”.

          One of the reps and I are working the holiday weekend to get all of the stuff in the system and acknowledge to the customers as well as sorting to see how this can all happen. As we’re doing the logistics we’ll yell at sales, but we’re just yelling at ourselves.

  149. Cruciatus*

    I can’t believe I just completed 4 weeks at my new job. Some days I’m like “Ahhhhhh!” because it’s way more nonstop than my last job. But then the days go by very fast. Though I do sometimes miss having the time (besides at lunch) to take 5 minutes to read some news headlines (or, you know, AAM). Though today my boss took a break with me to get ice cream, checked in with me, then let me leave 30 min. early on a holiday weekend! So, sometimes it’s overwhelming but my boss isn’t expecting me to know everything yet (a huge relief)–and knows I probably won’t for a full year. But I’m asking the right questions and she sees that I’m starting to get it little by little (I’m a scheduling officer for a school within a university). Every once in a while I think “I’m not feeling it” but sometimes the next day, or even the next hour, all is well again. I figure this is normal in a new job as I’m trying to figure out how to piece all the parts of my job together (and liking some parts more than others). Anyway, that’s it really! I’m ending the weekend feeling pretty good.

    1. Cruciatus*

      Ending the week, that is. I would not like the weekend to be over yet. But hopefully I’ll feel good then too.

    2. AnonPi*

      Oh gosh yes, when I worked in graduate admissions it took me months to feel comfortable with what I was doing! There’s a lot to learn in a university environment, thankfully it sounds like you have a boss who understands this and knows there’s a learning curve.

  150. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I was away for a family reunion for ~2 weeks. When I returned to work, my boss had left, ditto with 2 others from the (already small) division, and an additional 7 just put in their notice. As a teapot contractor this seems jarring. People tend to stay and go at variable rates but I’ve never seen anything like this and I’m actually really sad my boss left b/c I never had a chance to say goodbye. Do I stay or go? My job description’s changed from teapot writer (title and role) to “teapot documentation manager role” which requires a different/feasible but odd skill set.

    (Also, the family reunion turned into quasi-family counseling as my cousins advocated on my behalf re: bf from divorced parents. Which then turned into my dad passive-aggressively emailing me last night telling me he can’t order me to do anything, but that my bf b/c of his divorced parents (emphasis: divorce) would “ruin my life”). UGH. (But that’s another tale, for tomorrow……) X/

  151. 4 pannel project interview*

    I work for a corporate call center that encourages internal career growth. Opportunities for permanent positions are few and far between (most people do not leave if they get there) however there are usually several projects available for advancement each year.
    A friend of mine in the the top on the phone department interviewed for a 6 month project. The project is for a team that handles work cases and department updates. There are 3 permanent positions and the project role. The permanent positions have been filled for years.
    I was trying to coach my friend for the interview and realized there were a few oddities with the process. First of all they interviewed everyone who applied for the role. So if 30 people applied everyone got an interview. To me that’s a waste of everyone’s time. The thought is that if someone applies they must be qualified. To me they should have been pickier looking at minute details and cutting down the interview process.
    When my friend had the actual interview it was with 4 people; 2 mangers, 1 person currently on the team, and the head of the department. From what I heard it was more then a little overwhelming. I’ve taken advantage of projects and even been promoted within my company and have never had more then 3 people in the room with me at time.
    To me the whole process seemed like overkill and a large waste of time. I would love to hear your opinions regarding the situation.

  152. Jessen*

    When it comes to professional attire, what do you ladies consider too short, too low, or too tight? I grew up pretty strict and I’ve had some comments that my clothing is too baggy, but I’m having trouble judging where exactly is the line between too loose and too tight.

    1. Rebecca*

      Just my opinion, and I’m saying this as a plus size lady, 1X or 20W (and getting smaller). I like my clothing to fit a bit loosely so I don’t feel like I’m going to burst out of it. I judge button up shirts by whether the space between the buttons gaps when I sit down, so I try this before I go to work :) And I’m a bit over 50, so that might affect my opinion.

      I think skirts that are more than 4 inches or so above the knee are too short for the office. I think V necks that allow your bra to show are too low, and if your shirt is so tight that your belly sticks out and you have a band of skin showing between your shirt and your skirt/pants, it’s too tight and too short at the same time.

      To further this, and giving some observations from my office:

      Please wear underwear and pants that fit correctly, so when you sit down and swivel your chair to the side, I don’t have to look at your bare rear and wonder “where are her underwear?” Also, I don’t want to know what color your bra is because you’re wearing spaghetti strap cami’s, that are layered in different colors. And for the love of God please do not wear a Harley Davidson button up vest, with nothing on underneath it because it’s dress down Friday, so your gut spills out over your jeans and I have to look at that too. Buy shirts that are long enough, so when you sit down at your desk, people don’t have to look at your bare back because they ride up. When wearing flip flops or sandals, please wash your feet, and don’t come to work looking like you walked through a barnyard before putting on your sandals.

      1. Jessen*

        I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum – 115 pounds and a DD chest. It’s actually hard to find clothes that aren’t baggy because I can’t afford fancy petite stores and I’m too small for most women’s clothing. What I learned was nothing above the knees, no cleavage showing, and nothing that shows curves. That’s just not working well with my frame.

        1. Delyssia*

          I can’t tell from your comment if you’re still trying to follow the “nothing that shows curves” rule or not, but if you are, that’s why you’re being told your clothes are too baggy. In properly fitted clothing, you should basically be able to see your curves. “Basically” meaning not skin tight where you see every detail, but you should be able to tell that you have a chest and a waist and hips. Your clothing should be properly tailored to skim over your curves.

          If you can’t afford the fancy stores, tailoring might also be too expensive, but you might at least check into the cost of getting some key pieces tailored, even one at a time. For dresses, something as simple as adding a belt can make all the difference.

        2. NicoleK*

          Try JCPenny, Kohls, or Sears for affordable petite clothing. If there isn’t a store near you, order off their website. I’m similar in size to you and that’s where I get my business casual wear. Also, I’ve had decent luck with the local thrift stores too.

    2. _ism_*

      I have a mixed bag of experience and I think it can vary a lot depending on the climate. Most places I worked were generally “business casual.” But in a warmer climate, things veered a lot more casual. Sleeveless tops OK, skirts slightly above the knee ok (but in reality capris were OK so all the ladies just wore nice-ish capri pants, nobody wore skirts in Florida at my offices)

    3. NicoleK*

      Appropriate: knee length skirts, tops that close properly, aren’t too sheer, and drapes as oppose to cling. pants and jeans that don’t look like they’re painted on.

      1. Jessen*

        You wouldn’t happen to have a good guideline for “painted on”, would you? I’m wearing the smallest clothing that doesn’t feel painted on to me and getting feedback that my clothing is too baggy.

        1. AnotherFed*

          Here’s my definition of painted on: you can clearly see the underwear line through them (assuming the person is wearing underwear); if your legs are still damp from the shower, you have to put them on like tights rather than pants. The shimmy jump to get them to your waist is another indicator.

          If you didn’t wear a belt and someone tugged, would your pants slide down? Are there big wrinkles in front when you sit down or big wrinkles on the butt when you stand up? Are your pants too long for you by more than heels can fix? Any of those could be why you’re getting told your pants are too baggy.

        2. NicoleK*

          My definition of painted on: you can see every bulge, roll, and dimple. seams are stretched to the max and can give way at any time. thighs look like sausage casings. person would be a prime candidate for the show “What Not to Wear”.

          If you’re getting feedback that your clothes are too baggy, try the same piece of clothing in a smaller size. Or try different cut and styles. For example, jeans: there’s relaxed fit, slim fit, skinny jeans, ultra skinny jeans, bootcut, boyfriend jeans, and etc. Something that fits right should highlight your assets and hide your flaws.

          1. Jessen*

            I think that’s the difficulty. The standard I learned for clothing was that you needed to work to hide your assets, or else they’d be a distraction and no one would take you seriously. It’s hard to adjust to appropriately fitted

  153. Rebecca*

    I went to a meet and greet at a company less than 10 minutes from my house. They’re expanding, again, and my skill set would translate perfectly to what they do. An SKU is an SKU, it has to be weighted, cubed, put on a purchase order, and made to fit in a truck. Customers are customers, regardless of whether they order paper towels or paper plates or pajamas! Anyway, while the jobs I would be qualified for weren’t available yet, I was able to fill out an application, submit my resume, and speak with HR. It turns out I work with some of the same customers at my job as they work with! I am very hopeful I’ll be able to get out of the toxic job environment I’m in now. If I don’t get a job at the new company, at least I know I tried.

    2. _ism_*

      Hey, you do the same stuff I do! I’m new to this industry but yeah, well put. My company does the manfuacturing and shipping in rather old fashioned ways, which is a subtle message we get every day from all our customers and freight carriers and just about any other business we’re involved with for any reason. I might be happy in this line of work if I went somewhere with software that’s older than my sister.

  154. I'm a Little Teapot*

    What a week. I finished my latest freelance writing project in a mad rush ending at 4 am on Tuesday…which didn’t have the greatest effect on my productivity at my day job. But it’s done, or at least the draft is. Here’s to hoping the editor likes it and hoping I can rewrite the shakier parts so they’re a lot better.

  155. _ism_*

    Something changed this week. I don’t know if it’ll last. Working for a dysfunctional company with a micromanager for the last year. At odds with boss daily, having to do with communication styles. Yesterday I let some frustration get the better of me (it happens with me & her) and said curtly “What did you hire me for then?”

    Suddenly I’m in charge of a project and she says that me saying that caused something to “click,” and as usual there was no time to elaborate. IDK what this all means for the long haul.

    1. _ism_*

      I got her to elaborate, she said me taking responsiblity means I’ll be the one explaining my process to corporate (who only inquire when something is going wrong as we all already know). I said “That’s what I want!” I hate our 30 second Roles and Expectations meetings that I have to work in during endless fire emergencies.

  156. NicoleK*

    Earlier this week, I lost my cool with a coworker. I’ve been in BEC mode for the last 3 months with her. I really don’t like pushy aggressive people; especially pushy clueless newish coworker who wants to leave her “imprint” on everything. I told her the following: when she becomes program manager then she could make whatever changes she wants, she should read the proposals and reports, and that she needs to think things through. Ugh. So, of course, I had to apologize. I can not wait to leave.

  157. AnonPi*

    OMG I’ve had the craziest whirlwind of sudden job interest! The best thing though is I applied for a job about two weeks ago, got an email last Friday for a phone interview which I had last Saturday. Then get an email this Wednesday for an in person interview Thursday! (I tell you never again, I admittedly picked the first available slot because I wanted to get it over with, but spending the night before prepping clothes, trying to review notes, etc after working all day was just too much). Both interviews went great, and at the end of the in person interviews (I had two, a group interview, then one with a director), the director said I was his top pick and unless the committee insists on someone else that makes him change his mind, the job is mine! Yay! I know, I know, don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched, but I’m so excited! This is a great job and something I really want to do (program coordinator at a university), and will finally get me out of my current toxic workplace. They said I’ll definitely know within two weeks, maybe as soon as next Friday (they finish interviews Thursday morning), they’re wanting to move quick on this since there’s currently no one doing the work. I’m gonna die of anticipation for the next week or two!

  158. That's Not My Name*

    I’ve really had it with work. This week a former co-worker stopped by simply to check out the office and gloat. Ugh. Hate that. Who does that? Unprofessional much?

    I know you aren’t supposed to quit without anything new lined up, but I am breaking here. I’m thinking of setting a deadline (Thanksgiving? New Years? March?) and if nothing has panned out (believe me I’m looking) then just quitting. I can save up enough to live for a few months on my own in – South America and finally learn Spanish. That would be somewhat useful in my career and I’m just wasting my time at my current job. I know I am beyond burnt out at this point. I can endure anything if I have a deadline of when it ends, and by setting my own deadline I feel in control. I love where I live so moving is not an option I want to consider. Internet, what say you?

    1. AnonPi*

      I’m in a similar boat. I have a very toxic work environment and a bully for a supervisor. I’m at the point the stress is making me sick, and decided that I can’t keep this up for months either. And as you said, you don’t want to quit w/o having something else lined up, but you can only take so much. I sorta gave myself of a timeline that if none of the jobs that I’ve recently applied for didn’t pan out in the next couple weeks, I’d probably quit sometime next month. Otherwise I’ll have a breakdown, or I’ll be pushed to the point I won’t be able to keep my mouth shut the next time I’m bullied/yelled at work, and get myself fired which is worse than quitting. If you can manage to save up and manage w/o a job for a few months, then I say consider it. But I’d keep applying for work during that time, as you probably don’t want more than a few months break in-between jobs either, and it can take time to find a new position and go through the process of applying/interviewing/getting offers. Good luck and hope things work out.

    2. Ruffingit*

      I’ve quit two jobs with no other one to go to, but I also had the safety net of marriage and a husband who was working and could keep us afloat. Sometimes there is no other choice but to leave because if you don’t, you will lose your sanity. It’s all very dependent on what you’re able to do/live with financially. But frankly, I don’t think this is the worst thing in the world. Taking time off from working at Fukushima is sometimes the best thing you can do.

    3. That's Not My Name*

      Thank you both for reading and commenting!

      AnonPi, I hope things get better for you. I already feel a bit unprofessional when I feel “punchy” at work, just feeling stressed out and seeming silly. I agree it’s only a matter of time before I do something I regret. And yes, I would definitely keep applying for work while I take off, I think that’s smart.

      Ruffingit, I’m not 100% happy about the idea of “escaping” and living away from my partner for a few months, but we have survived much worse. Honestly he is so sick of me hating work right now that it probably wouldn’t be too hard to convince him that I need to do this.

    4. That's Not My Name*

      to clarify: I meant moving is not an option like I wouldn’t move for a new job in a new city. But living a few months somewhere else, taking a break, that is OK.

      1. AcidMeFlux*

        Don’t asssume life in South America is going to be a breeze. Things may look vastly cheaper, but moving is complicated. If you want to live out of a backpack, maybe…and a few months is not enough time at all to learn a language. Ask around, and not just of students who’ve traveled around a bit. I’ve lived in another country for much of my adult life and I assure it it takes a lot of adjusting.

      2. afiendishthingy*

        I spent about a year in Costa Rica in my early twenties because I thought I needed to Do Something with my life. I don’t regret it, exactly, but it was definitely the most difficult year of my life and I can’t really recommend it as a cure for burn out.

  159. MrsPorter*

    How do you build trust in a company where you are the newest employee…by 5+ years?

    I love my new job. It’s a great company, I love the people I work with, the corporate culture is great…but I keep running into the same problem.

    I work in admin, with a huge background in general admin functions but none in my company’s specific industry (accounting). I was recently hired as an assistant to the office manager, who’s been with the company for about ten years. She’s been doing the job solo this whole time, with occasional temp help but no permanent or even competent solution. (I know this from the horror stories I’ve heard about her previous assistants.) I’m the first person to hold this position as a permanent hire, and so I feel an extra pressure to justify my salary. The firm is small (20 people), and while they’re quite successful there’s still a sense that they want to run a tight ship and not hire beyond the needs of the firm.

    Overall, I’ve felt like I’m doing quite well – I’ve been in the position for about three months, and during that time have worked hard to acquaint myself with the basic duties of my position, up to the point that when my supervisor took some unexpected medical leave, I was able to cover both of our duties for a week without any major disasters. Still, I feel like it’s just not possible to know everything about the job yet – I barely have a handle on most of our clients, and there are major parts of the firm’s business which I just haven’t have time to be trained on yet. A couple such came up during my supervisor’s leave, and despite my best efforts to explain that I simply didn’t know how to do certain things, it led to major meltdowns and questions about my competence at the job. I feel terrible at having failed my company, but also feel like my hands were tied – I can’t know things I wasn’t trained on, can I? I found certain creative workarounds for the issues that were brought up and the whole week seems to have resolved to everyone’s satisfaction, but I still feel like a failure. Considering that my three-month probation ended during this period, I feel like I’m in potential danger of a layoff, or at least losing everyone’s trust. (It’s worth mentioning that up until now, everyone was giving me rave reviews about my intelligence and competence, and I was told repeatedly by HR that they had no concerns about me making it past the three month probation.) There were a couple specific instances where I found myself totally in the dark – being asked about files and projects that I literally didn’t know existed, simply because they’d never been mentioned. When my supervisor is around it’s no big deal – she handles them all herself – but when she’s out, there’s no way for me to give a good answer or find the proper solution.

    Now it looks like her one-week leave will turn into another three weeks sometime in the near future, due to another medical event when she’ll be out of touch other than the occasional email or text. I feel like I was barely able to keep my head above water for one week – if it turns into three, I’m not sure what the consequences will be, or how to avoid them. When I’ve tried bringing them up to her, she’s just told me to “leave it until I get back” – an answer which the partners found totally inadequate.

    How do I get past this? I don’t want to seem like I’m complaining or passing the buck, or to make my supervisor feel like I’m demanding more control over the position than she wants to give, but at the same time I feel like the various snafus were totally out of my control. Is there any way to effectively communicate this and still come out seeming like a good addition to the firm?

    1. AnotherFed*

      It sounds like you’re doing just fine (and maybe even better than fine!) at your job. The problem is when you try to cover your supervisor’s job, too!

      Since you know she’s going to be out for up to 3 weeks, try sitting down with your supervisor and her boss, and talking through how they want things she normally does handled while she’s out, under the assumption that it will be the worst case 3 weeks and the office has to keep functioning. It’s important to do this in a tone of ‘how can we make your life easier’ – both to your supervisor and her boss; you don’t want her to feel ambushed (and she may already feel stressed or backed into a corner because of the medical issues) and you don’t want her to feel like you’re going over her head. If you can, talk about the impacts from things the you weren’t able to do last time (and this is where her boss might be able to do a better job, or will reveal that it was frustrating in the moment but not actually a big problem).

      If you can’t get this meeting set up, then you can also consider going to coworkers you weren’t able to do things for last time and talk to them about the upcoming leave and ask them to take a couple of minutes and talk with your supervisor about what they need done while she’s out and who should do it. Depending on your supervisor, you might want to check in with her after that meeting to make sure you can deliver on what she promised.

      If they are resistant or you think your supervisor, tell them your understanding of the supervisor’s current plan for handling their tasks is to leave it until she is back.

      Finally, if you can’t get through and your supervisor has promised the moon to others but not trained you or just has told you to leave everything until she’s back and no one else seems to be tracking on this, send your supervisor an email on what you are doing about each type of task that might fall on you while they are out and what you need training on to be able to do.

  160. Ambz*

    Rant time?

    I left my summer job today. My contract ended and I’m going back to school! Yay! And my crappy part-time job, but eh, I’ll live. I was only there for four months, but I liked the work alright (I’d go insane if I had to do it my whole life, but it wasn’t bad for the summer) and the pay was good; and, as an added bonus, most of my coworkers were great. I had a lot of fun there this summer! The environment was really light and jokey and a lot of fun. As a result of this, and me becoming somewhat close to a few of the people there, I was pretty sad to leave today. One of my coworkers waited to leave until I’d come out because he hadn’t gotten the chance to properly say good-bye, which was nice (we ended up becoming rather close, in a work sort of way). I cried a bit on the drive home (the half hour commute was a bit longer than usual due to traffic, and it kind of sucked to be stuck in the car alone with my thoughts for that long), although it was weird because at the same time I was really happy because I’m going back to school and I won’t have to work full-time anymore… The department I was in is being restructured, and due to new processes/liabilities they’re probably not going to hire students again there next year, so if I come back I might be in a completely different department or opposite shift, and that’s a bit scary because I sometimes don’t get along well with people and this group was surprisingly good for me. However, there were departments and stuff where I knew some of the people, but knew that if I was working there I wouldn’t have gotten on with most of them.

    Ugh… I don’t know. I hate finalities and this feels like one. That’s what it boils down to. That’s why my first word to describe how leaving there felt was “bittersweet”. I’ve moved on from jobs and schools with ease before, so I don’t know why this feels so difficult. Maybe I’m just feeling particularly sentimental this week.

    1. Colette*

      It’s hard to leave people you like, even when you’re moving on to something good. It’s an ending, and it’s better that those be a little sad than that they be totally happy.

  162. Last Commenter Standing*

    Oh hello everyone, I sent this to Alison, but since she has a lot of questions to wade through, I figure I’d bring this up here.

    This coming week I have an interview at an organization’s headquarters on the other side of my home state (~ 2 1/2 hours from here). That being said, they also have an office in my hometown. While I wouldn’t mind living and working on the other side of the state, there are many reasons (both personal and professional) why I’d much prefer to stay here and work in their office in my hometown.

    The application doesn’t say where the position is based, but I’d assume they’d prefer (if not require) that the new hire work at HQ. I, on the other hand, wonder if it wouldn’t be possible to work at their office here in my hometown.

    At the interview, should I ask them if it would be possible to work here rather than at headquarters? Should I wait and see if I get an offer first, then bring it up at that time? Or should I just not bring it up and just be ready to move closer to their HQ if I land an offer?

    1. Ruffingit*

      I think you can ask in the interview where they plan on having the new position located. That isn’t an out of the ordinary question since they have more than one office. Depending on the answer, you can decide what makes the most sense for you.

  163. Ruffingit*

    So I’ve posted before about my horrible boss who is a huge jerk. Not this last week, but the one before, my co-worker was on vacation, which meant I was doing all the work for us both. It was rough. Long days and some serious exhaustion. And of course, not a single bit of help or thanks from my boss.

    When my co-worker returned for her first day back, she was so appreciative and said “I thought I might walk into a lot of things to do because I know it was a lot of work for you, but it was all done and I was so thankful. Thank you so much, you did a fantastic job!”

    Then a few days later, she had a personal crisis and I insisted she ask the boss if she could go home because it was very difficult for her to be at work. The next day, she came in and said “You are awesome. I know you don’t get told this much around here, but you’re really doing a great job and I appreciate you!”

    You know…I couldn’t believe how much I needed that. I didn’t know until she said it how much I was starving for some simple appreciation. It was really nice and I felt good the rest of the week. Still do.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      There’s lots of starvation at your place. It does not take long for that starvation to set in, also.

      I had a boss that felt that saying please and thank you was a show of weakness. If you did not hear any comments that meant you were doing a great job, “we’ll tell you if you do something wrong.”

      Manners/occasional compliments are necessary like food and water.

      1. Ruffingit*

        So true there is a lot of starvation at my place of work. One of the things that is very helpful is that my co-workers and my patients are VERY appreciative. My patients often tell me how much I’ve helped them and that they are so glad I was their counselor. So that makes a huge difference. My boss is just an insecure human being with a lot of problems and most of the time I’m good at remembering that. I’m also looking forward to better days ahead in a different job. Haven’t found it yet, but I know it’s out there.

        Thanks NSNR! Always appreciate your insight and comments. HUGS!

  164. No trust falls*

    Following an astonishingly awful hire, my formerly collegial and functional workplace is in disarray. When “Littlefinger” was finally fired, the managers looked around and discovered he’d managed to spread rumors and malicious gossip and discontent to just about every unit. Morale is low and people are very distrustful of other units. I’ve told my boss, the head of this 50-person workplace, that the best thing is to make sure day-to-day management improves in terms of communication and collaboration but he’s asked me to consider other ways to help us get back on an even keel. I’m afraid he’s going to drag us out to a ropes course if I don’t think of something- ideas???

    1. Ruffingit*

      Seems to me an all-company meeting is in order where the boss publicly states that he’s aware of the trouble caused by the jerk and that he wants to get things back to the friendly and fun place it once was. Perhaps everyone in the company since it’s 50 people and not 50,000 should be included in deciding how to get the train back on the tracks.

    2. Kathlynn*

      If you don’t go with the meeting, is there a company email address that only the boss and one or two people have access to? Could one be created? Then let everyone know that they can send any concerns they have to that email address, and they will be addressed/investigated. And considered anonymous. And all attempts should be made to keep any enquirers anonymous, like removing the sender’s email address if forwarding it, or rephrasing the email if it contains identifying information.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If need be, specifically say that this is nothing that will be resolved by a ropes course or whatever. If anything a ropes course will show how out of touch management is with what the real problems are.

      The real issue is that this toxic person got hired and then ran amok for however long before management ended the misery. I think the boss should make a statement that covers a few points.
      He could talk about changes in hiring practices for better screening and changes in monitoring a new person’s progress.
      Then he could talk about rumors and gossip are not acceptable. Talk about how it breaks down trust and basically messes with the bottom line. Then remind everyone that their managers are available to help remedy situations. And mean that. It’s a trickle down- but support the managers as they try to build their departments back up. If managers have the support they need, then they might be able to do this.

      This guy did not do all this damage in a vacuum. People fed into his lies and gossip- by either believing it or by helping it spread. Something was amiss before this guy started or he would not have been able to do the damage he did. People should have put their foot down, and they did not. Time to figure out why.

  165. Kathlynn*

    So, I work at a gas station. Yesterday I got called it, and agreed. But not in the way I usually get called in (it’s too busy, or someone’s going home sick). It was just because neither of the other people on shift weren’t certified to do task 1 and weren’t trained to do task 2. There was a chance that neither of these would be requested by customers in the 1.5 hours before my shift. So, when I got to work, I offered to just be on-hand for these, rather then actually start my shift. (the difference being, I just sat down and read/ate lunch, except for the one time I had to do task 1. If I’d been on shift I would be running till, and helping customers. And other work related stuff.)

    So we agreed that I wouldn’t be paid, unless I spent the majority of the time working. And if I was only needed for a couple of minutes, then it would be time counted to when I leave work a few minutes early (usually less than 10 minutes. But I’m fast an accurate at closing procedure.). I don’t see a problem with this, but another coworker did, and figured I should be paid anyways. (I am not going to ‘follow’ there advice, and tell my boss that she should pay me.)
    So, does anyone else think this was a bad idea/plan/suggestion? (I know for 100% that it’s not going to become a regular occurrence)

    1. Cruciatus*

      I’m no expert, but I feel like if you’re called in to work you need to be paid. Legally. I hope someone will chime in with more definite information.

      1. Kathlynn*

        Legally, I think it’s complicated. The argument could be made that I hadn’t actually started my shift yet. If I hadn’t just sat down for all except 8 minutes, I would have been paid. (same if I hadn’t made the suggestion). Because, yes my boss called me in, but another way of looking at what I did/said is “you don’t actually need me, so I’m just going to go sit over there”. With both me and my boss knowing I wouldn’t be helping customers or anything I would have been required to do if I was on shift (even if I was on my lunch/dinner break). Except for task 1 & 2.

        Basically, I view the time equivalent to deciding to show up early to grab a snack before work. Or when I don’t want to be at home for some reason.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If you did that in my state your company would be fined if caught. Matter of fact, a company was just sued for similar type stuff. I think it’s a very bad idea.
      Additionally, things could get quite interesting if you got injured while working off the clock.

      In short, your boss should know the state laws about pay. And there is no way anyone should be telling her whether to pay them or not. She should know that and be firm about it.
      You’re working around gas pumps? Gosh, I hope she at least follows the regs regarding safety around pumps. She sounds a little free and easy with the rules and regs.

    3. BRR*

      Working is more than just doing work tasks, if they’re requiring you to be at a location and not do anything then you are still “working.”

    4. asteramella*

      It’s not a good idea to offer to work unpaid in any context, not just because of possible legal complications but because it devalues your work.

    5. Mike C.*

      That’s a load of crap. If you’re at work, you’re there to work and are legally required to be paid. Even if that work is “waiting for something for me to deal with”.

  166. onnellinen*

    Maybe a bit late for any responses, but here goes… had an phone interview (with a panel!) on Friday. I was going to send a follow-up email today, but now I’m wondering if I should just hold until Monday night/Tuesday, since it’s the long-weekend and all. Thoughts?

    1. Ruffingit*

      Go ahead and send it. People check their email at all hours and days so I think it can’t hurt to send it now.

    2. Cruciatus*

      I don’t think it will really matter. If you want to do it now to be done with it–go for it. If there wasn’t a holiday weekend I don’t think it would be weird to send it on the weekend. I think it’s good to wait a day or two–as you have at this point–so go ahead and send the follow-up!

    4. NDQ*

      I had an in-person 2nd interview Friday with a panel. I’m sending a group email before work Tuesday. I wanted time to think about it during long weekend.

      NDQ

  167. Cruciatus*

    I was going over my paperwork for my new job and I realized I didn’t understand something. On my contract it says I’m nonexempt (not a surprise) and my monthly salary is $ABCD (and we are paid monthly). So does that mean I’m salaried? I just kept thinking I was still hourly but no where did they actually ever write my hourly salary down–I did the math myself based on my monthly salary. So does that mean I’m paid the same no matter if the month has an extra day or fewer days? I haven’t received my pay stub yet so I can’t look to see how it’s broken down–though my August paycheck was prorated anyway since I didn’t start until the 10th–and obviously it’s a holiday weekend so no one to ask right now at work. Am I one of those rare-ish nonexempt salaried people?

    2. Delyssia*

      It sure sounds that way. When I worked at an old job where I was paid monthly, I was exempt, but we were definitely paid the same each month, regardless of exact length of the month or number of hours worked. But I don’t know exactly how that would work when you’re non-exempt.

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